s somebody probably remember i came into basically an overview of what's going on with richmond's rates and i further tell into what's going on with with richmond's rates after that meeting and basically did a little bit more analysis and kind of took into consideration the projected future debt that we've got an addition to some of the short term debt that we agreed to do in the in the form of  court and i kind of just ran with the numbers and did some analysis based on that and i'd like to have a conversation with first with the water commissioners and then i'll open it up to those to the public to ask questions based on some of the stuff that we talked about so first what was what i sort of mentioned at the may meeting was how the equivalent residential units are the way we kind of divide up the the allocation or the units is is really way off currently we have five hundred ninety three or so units and it's it's really based on  it's based on a hodgepodge of stuff it's based on the unit ideally flows from the state it's based on how much you think you want to use or how much you you want to be permitted to use you know and i mean the reality is is that the usage in this community is relatively stable for a decade one would probably say since the cheese factory moved out and so given that it's it's my more equitable to sort of div up rates based on what's actually going on in the community and one way of doing it is to look at it from the perspective of a single family home so you say a single family home is one unit and you define that one unit and in a myriad ways  and what i think it kind of boiled it down to was let's take what's really going on in this community so i asked ken doll and trudy to basically go through the users and to mark off all of the ones who were single straight up string of single family homes  was a single family lives there are no you know apartment in the back no duplex it was single family homes and what i did is it took the average that all of those single family homes use on an annual basis and it's roughly forty one thousand gallons a year ok so that becomes kind of the basis for what we then base everybody else are so one single family home equals one equipment residential unit equals forty one thousand gallons s take all the other connections the folks are actually connected to the system who are receiving water from the system and you divide their usage by forty one thousand to come up with the number of units they represent in the system ok except for everybody who's not single family homes right and nobody sued then nobody's less than one so everybody is at least one there's no haves there's no point three two seven five there's one or greater than three well that's see five ninety three is actually what's going on right now and that's not based on on on one single family else as seventy two thousand gallons a year and then you divide all the other people so basically is what they're permit to use so like you know a restaurant seats fifty has fifty seats and serves two times a day there's a lot of number of water for each of those seats per per times a day and then you multiply that and then you divide by the seventy two thousand which is sort of the state permitted for the single family home but the reality is that's not what's going on here and as we all know those of us who work at home in the water world know that those averaged those estimates for the year for the flows are are just they're grossly over what really is used and especially when we have meters and you have meters for a reason you have meters so that you can really keep track of the amount of water that you have using the system i mean they're expensive to maintain and to put end to build on and so to use them that's what that's what they're used  for and we have historical data on what folks use so why not use that to our advantage and base our rates on that so it's actually something tangible the other problem is is that five ninety three that's currently right now is it includes allocated units so it includes people who aren't connected to the water system who have sort of this promise of water in the future that they're kind of maintaining it and that revenue is actually going into meet  expenses to sort of balance the budget it's not going into a capital reserve where future need would pay for future work it's it's going to maintain the budget so there are folks who are paying for the benefit of  having water who aren't getting water or paying for the water system and it's and so the problem with that is that if somebody decides and you give up their allocation order to  decrease it or don't pay it then you have a revenue problem you are getting the revenue that you are that your expenses are based on or that your rates are based on that's a challenge  one thousand so seventy two thousand is the is the number that this sort of says a single family home should be permitted to use but the reality is in richmond it's forty one thousand ok and i that's actually pretty consistent throughout the entire state i've done a number of these and it's in the low forty's that the average single family home and in vermont communities use so richmond's not sort of off the chart so i would say you take the non single family home connections and you divide it by the forty one thousand and you rounded to the nearest whole number and you get four hundred fifty nine equivalent residential units so what that's reflected in upfront reflective is it's reflective of the people who are actually receiving water you take out the folks who are not connected but who have allocation and you treat them differently because futurity pays for future work so they would get treated differently this happens this happens all the time out west this happens all the time in communities that are coming up on their on their primitive yields on how much water they can produce and that they can't supply it's basically saying i have an i want to purchase an allocation to make sure that when i need that allocation when i need that water you're going to have the sources available to me so either you don't permit the next person for water usage or the money goes to pay for source exploration or to extend the line that's not that's not a problem here we have plenty of water fortunately and so so this this this this kind of thing about allocation is it's it's water is a commodity and and well in some places water is a commodity in richmond it it doesn't need to be so back to the kind of the new equipment residential units is there's there's the four fifty nine everybody run into the nearest whole number ok so no fractions nobody less than one take out allocation and there's another way of calculating it where you round it where you take everybody and you divide up you take everybody including single family homes and you divided by forty one thousand and you get nobody less than one but you round it to the nearest half number and that increases the e r used to five hundred six point  five now the difference there is that there are actually a number of single family homes that turned out to be five year use because they use one hundred fifty thousand gallons a year now whether they're leaking toilet or they have four teenage daughters i don't know but  that was how it worked out that was where the difference came from and also kind of shifting the grounding so some communities like having infractions they like happens because then they feel like well i'm not paying for a whole base that i'm paying for half so so those are two ways of calculating and they're the most kind of understandable they're the most aquittal and they're the most dependable and that's really kind of the goal in all of this is i could have really sustainability and dependability in my opinion usually i'm talking to one or commissions and trying to convince them to go this route because they're the ones who are going to have to defend it but in this case we're the ones you're going to have to defend it  so the next kind of thing that i did was i took our budget and i broke it out well first date is i took the two thousand and thirteen budget and i added in the browns court payment that starts being paid ok twenty fourteen ok so i built it into the twenty thirteen budget but again we these are rough numbers and so i took the twenty thirteen budget the one that was already proven that we're costs so things that we have to pay regardless of how much water is produced and then the other ones the variable is expenses based on how much water how much water we produce electricity chemicals testing state fees things like that are variable costs they don't vary too much but they are still variable but the things that are fixed are like salaries capital insurance you know staff time think things of that nature and most communities their fixed versus variable ratio is about seventy percent of the fixed budget or the budget is fixed and thirty percent is variable in richmond it's about ninety five five which means five percent of our budget is variable so we're going to be making an actual budget like if we were going to base the strictly on fixed and variable costs is that ninety five percent of our budget would be in the piece rate and five percent of our budget would come from what goes through the meter now that's that's scary for for doing the calculations because that means that the base rate is going to be twice as much as it is that is the policy decision absolutely and   recommendation would be not to go that way because you want to get the majority of your revenue from fixed expenses so that that will well because the majority of your expenses are fixed make sense bit so so that in that kind of scenario where essentially the cost of that marginal additional gallon of water is zero is emotional yeah but when we when we start but we need to be thinking ahead yeah you know i mean we're talking about developing  the cheese factory so we're talking about you know you know continue residential growth in town and at some point that's no longer going to be the case so it in the way that you've been talking about about about about you know  looking up the shops in the box and integrated you know getting people used to thinking about the amount of water they're using and having a direct impact on what they think is a good thing to do except that if people use less water and a significant portion of your revenue comes from that variable rate comes from the amount of water that people are using then you have lots revenue and then potential is that you're going to have finding  talking about a balance so yeah i'm talking about taking those kind of factors into consideration when when deciding where that split will have seventy thirty sixty forty fifty fifty i mean obviously you don't want to be all yeah variable ways of approaching this i don't necessarily think that they're the best and that's calling out debt service as kind of a line item is that debt service d you know other in towns do just on occur what goes through the meter and that is its top two because again it's the variable rate it's it's it's a it's of if people use last or people will start conserving in that's and that's just a matter of fact is that when people upgrade their houses or are you know they change their lifestyle or somebody else moves in is or simply going to college is is that you since traps often  significant moment for a relative amount of your of your revenue is coming from that what's going through that meter and the relative amount of water that's associated with it doesn't cost you that much less to produce it you're going to come up deficient y one of the reasons that that's happening is they're not getting pricey you know about that and it's correct you know they're you know with it's we can toilet or because the if they're actually using and wasting the water right they're not getting the signal of this is relatively small but larger expenses to the overall system than there are in the currently paying right now and you do want to have that reflected and that's the case then you can always design are pretty great structures and it's an increasing  so those folks who use really a very small amount of water you can actually build more of them and you kind of you kind of make that sub you make it less than what the medium with the medium gears so say the  average the price per thousand gallons is five dollars you can make those really low users two dollars and fifty cents but then you make the ones that use over seventy five thousand gallons of corn or something i'm just throwing a number out this isn't this is no bearing on what happens here but use above peas a premium so maybe it goes up to seven fifty thousand gallons and so there's a price signal there that then you can and then things like that can help protect especially the the lower income or the fixed income especially the folks that live by themselves or that really don't use a lot of water because of their lifestyle you were warning them so there are things that you can play with but that's when you really start digging down and for this purpose i was kind like because because we have some big things coming up in the next couple of years it was really important to make some smaller changes in the beginning and then see how it affects both the community and our revenue and expense structure so kind of getting back to i didn't really run the numbers for seventy thirty and it's a steve forty to just sort of see what would happen i also kind of took out the septic revenue that's in right now so right now two hundred thousand gallon two hundred thousand dollars plus or minus goes to offset the revenue needed for both the water and sewer and it's not clear to me how it's distributed how you know what percentage of it goes to water and what percentage of it goes to s and i don't even i mean it was really difficult to tell the inspections that you gave me but it's some percentage that offsets water and the rest offset sewer but what that does is that makes us dependent  fortunately it's been great for the past couple years but it just reminded me on friday couple of years ago something was down for a couple of months and we left probably fifty thousand dollars worth of revenue right there so there that could happen at any time there could be as we talked about competition for other  revenue was going to be taken to offset needed revenue and what i would propose would be some of the sec to drive me to go into capital because as it stands right now to currently the water reserve fund has forty nine thousand dollars and it's projected to have another forty nine thousand and fifty year thirteen f y thirteen so this year we have  so the fifty thousand dollars would come out of capital reserves and right now that would that would wipe out our capital reserves right now the interesting also is that the sewer only has eight thousand dollars in capital reserves so basically it's all going to dollars now if you think about how much work it takes to do an emergency line break or are if something happens down the aisle science or the storage tank or something where we're done no amount of sap to drive in is going to make up for that because we've already calculated general i mean because the cost of doing business as we all know in our household budgets the cost of doing business increases to rate of two three percent a year and so in theory it should be adjusted and i say adjusted not  annually to reflect the i mean just just the rate of inflation much less plan work and i did get a spreadsheet from our engineer today as part of the political and engineering report that was done in year two before that or a road project and i thought i'd put it on my computer but i guess i didn't and it sort of laid out the kind of proposed projects that this community needs to do needs to undertake minus the storage tank and the water side of it was another one and a half million dollars i mean of course you  do all of these and when you're but they need to be done not in fifty years not in twenty five years maybe in ten to fifteen years it will get water over you really for this are you playing analysis and i respect the fact that most communities don't have the reese have this resource you know like i just happened to do this as part of my job and i do this for other communities like richmond's not special and this is this is what i do i sit down and look at rates and i look at revenue and i look at capital and i look at how things are split up and i sort of say hey you guys might want to think about this so so kind of getting back to to the ear use the residential units and kind of hasn't been done the reality is that debt service in mobile and most likely is going to double so it's going to go from roughly fifty six thousand dollars a year to roughly one hundred twenty thousand dollars a year  service alone that's not going to happen ok so that's kind of the where we're headed is this is the problem we're just going through doors and we haven't put any money away to pay to pay that clearly because i just sort of talked about all of the expenses that we have coming up we haven't made adjustments to the rate structure to address that and some to trepanier is not going to it's not an increase by fifty thousand dollars in the next year and and what i did when i did my presentation in may and june is when you kind of look at the spread of users in the system you have a single family homes and you have you know the middle school the elementary school and you have some business in the middle what's happening is the people in the are supplementing the people in the middle so the single family homes in the low users and the users who are using less than what they're allocated are subsidizing the folks in the middle which unfortunately happens to be the business community i mean it's it's not x but it is what it is like that's how because in it in reality a lot of these this been some of this business community is using over what they what they've been  d and it's and the rates have never been adjusted to reflect this so that's why doing an a you know a redo of the ear use i think is probably the biggest the most important thing to do and keep revenue when for the time being to smooth out the bumps so kind of the first step would be to reevaluate the ear use and to get everybody on an equitable footing get all the single family homes to be the same and then get all of the water a quarter so basically if you have a connection uses less than fifteen thousand and forty right now they don't get an additional charge from what i understand right right yes so if people use more than fifteen thousand gallons we've got revenue here we need our expenses if connections use less than fifteen thousand dollars a quarter then we're in trouble so and that's because again the rates are not designed to include the cost of producing that water right we we're basing our revenue estimates on a usage assumption that isn't realistic  with the jericho road project is that are hiring is actually down about a half a million gallons of a month so the average the average usage for two thousand and eleven per month is two point five million  two thousand and twelve so far it's two million gallons so that's that's really good news because that means that we're producing less water but we're still selling the same amount so kind of that in between that on account water is shrinking and we're hoping that it will come down and further with brown's court and sort of the more water projects we do the less waste we have and so that means the less pumping we're going to have the west less wear and tear on the pumps on the twenty fifteen is a year and a half away just so you know it's a year and a half away and we have to make the bond payments have to be what do we have a schedule from when about payments or do or before the browns court that payments look right ok so we have a little bit of breathing room but the reality is is that any year and a half our debt payments going to double and we need to do something about it and we need to do something about a problem in the next two to three months at the most well if i can reinterpret just this is a completely understand what you're saying is that the sooner we address this issue belong or time we have to just move the the rates last but make it more so that it becomes part of a household budget you know and we've talked i have had to like to talk to you about this is that you can either do it every two months billing or you can do monthly billing and so that instead of these large chunks every four months to coincide with taxes is that we really the meters every two months and so you're getting you're getting six bills you care instead of four and so it's easier to budget or depending on admin you know every month but you know you kind of way more frequent billing with more admin costs and so that would be a question i think that we need to pose to you know that we need to discuss but we also need to get information from cantle and and kim on how much time it takes to put out the bills and to receive them and do all that good stuff is because that may be another alternative to kind of smooth out the bumps even though th e total sum may not necessarily it's easier to budget that way so i mean i i definitely think that there needs to be an advisory board of folks who would would would like to kind of get more information about this and and be involved in this and and i'm happy to kind of make it maybe two people from the water commission and kendall i would like to have you part of that and i would love members of the community of the public who would like to be part of this this advisory board to work through this over the next couple of weeks because i would like to present something at the next system to let them know what's going on and that's what the advisory board would be and they know about knights feeding when you first start discussing the water raid so i mean a letter should've gone out to the users to let them know what's going on and when they started closer to making substantial changes are proposing and then that certainly would be something that would happen i mean i know that the actual meeting we did have a lot of folks here and you know it was sort of talked about that this is coming that you know something's going to have to be done so i mean that i mean that i i i get what you're saying and that certainly will be part of the plan going forward but i knew that no decisions are going to be meeting tonight it was just going to be more like let's share what's going on here good sort of core we've just been talking about the the situation and the need for action  in the interest of time i'd like to yeah those are often actually used in large communities that do have significant diversity and their water system and a lot of poor who are or are or elderly in the interest of time please feel free to contact me phone call or email ok thank you so the fire department on the water leak little bit of water so they're asking if the water commission would be willing to consider an adjustment at some point but there's really no estimated amount of water in the they might request yeah i mean not i guess i was curious about how much water was lost and how long has it been leaking and i know they said it's going to take some time to fix because it's a warranty item but like this it's like let's keep it full saving people leaking that service so they're not asking for forgiveness on the water side they're asking for it on the sewer side but yeah that brings up other issues of people like oh i wash my car every weekend can i can i get credit on the waste water bill because i'm not doing that monthly meetings to this second when second monday of the month and my justification for this is that some of the invoices we receive receive at the beginning of  following month so the july invoice we receive in the beginning of august we've already had our august meeting to approve the warrant but doesn't get approved until september which means it doesn't get paid until the middle of september which means we're a month behind by the time we get another  we move to the monthly meetings to the second monday or the third monday so the second meeting of the month though in theory the invoice would have been received for the august and the  august kendall kind of scan and submit it to cam to get climate the warrant and the payback for the middle of the month that way we're not running deficiencies for not paying past use we're paying bills on time how do folks feel about that absolutely it would just show you no no no no this instead of having the meetings on the first monday it would happen on the third monday same time six thirty start we just we just shift work and we came to an agreement negotiated between time wise and what he wanted everything to do and to add to that he did an excellent job up there i believe every resident up there was more than happy with down but there was not that final this is how much it's going to be but because it was such a short project is we're now sort of getting the big were essentially paying for the entire project one in one fell to meeting so that we wouldn't all five of us when have to look at it meeting or whatever so it's your turn to do the october once a lot with one other person from the from the commission because amy harold chris and i have done it once so i'm happy to work on it with you to do it to do them that october one with you in them will just sort of rotate but do it you know i volunteer basis so if you're willing to in advance of the october meeting which will still have on the we know this if we could kind of do this more often and see if we could do this kind of because you know if you want to start talking about saving money on capital projects is that if we can coincide with deeper street we know deeper streets got to get done we want to pay for parking lot the water i was really thrilled to get the invitation from death to come and be here today and i don't know i certainly don't have the full time perspective of the experience but as i thought about it and some things that i might share a couple of things came out of some work i did this past week getting ready for a pilgrimage sunday around church i looked at the town's history and two things in particular caught my attention in relation to and i sort of thought well you know there you have it right from the very beginning we've been living with this tension of the fertile land and of the plains and how they are healthy again they've impacted the life of richmond from the very beginning hundred sixty one about a hunter who lost his way while he was hunting beaver and was nearly soffit with fatigue he was hungry and a group of native americans took pity on him and shared with him what they had which wasn't much but all they had was onions so their their gift to him and their rescue of him was with onions but it was all they had and i think both of those pieces i feel really  through the life of richmond the devastation i read and the damage that was done and yet the generosity of a community who gave what they had to give me as i was around  community and i was really struck by the work of strangers as well as friends and neighbors people appearing in yards and by offering to help to muck out basements to do  water that sat outside of this building just the incredible generosity of people as i gathered with some software members town officials and others to talk about how do we care for and tend to the only knowing that in this climate people are very private and might talk about the problems but if we say let's get together and talk about how you feel that's not necessarily going to be inviting and yet people really tried hard to make themselves of the when i felt like the community was amazingly responsive and in a really unique way really caring for each other in the sense of the common good that for me was really i have a son and daughter in law who live in the fall and i began first to hear from them and then to see in the news the way a different community was really torn apart by a less organized an contentious kind of response and again it was impressed with the work that was happening in richmond and the really skilled and gifted way that i thought people cared for each other so i feel very positive i'm sure that there's a lot of blue indigenous and trauma that continues to reside in households and family units as they continue to work through the aftermath but i have been deeply impressed with  the ways i've seen the community come together and very very pleased i'm proud to be a part in this place jeff mentioned in the invitation that if i would like to offer a prayer that was something that was possible i don't want to be presumptuous about that but if you would be open to me offering a prayer for the community i'm certainly willing to  a little bit of context for just that everybody's understanding in the town of richmond the listers are elected and they have duties there defined by statute responsibility of the select board is charges made by the listers in the in the twenty twelve fiscal years that was through the end of last june we discovered that the amount that was charged was over the allocated budget by about five hundred dollars but more to our concern was that the rate of charging in july and august indicated that the twenty thirteen budget would be expended probably if kept up with the trend that will be expended by the end of this calendar year in advance of the need to prepare the ground list and may through june next year at the end of the twenty thirteen fiscal year so the question i guess in the report that we'd like to hear   your plan is for preparing the grand list of the payment basically in order to exercise financial control over the budget we need to know what's what's happening and what your positions they haven't always been filled and when they have been filled they haven't always accepted ok particularly in the past three or four years when my claim to it was the primary listerine did most would be doing the bulk of the work so you sort of have had a situation where the select board has had his role the budget numbers over from ear to ear and now you get a chance a situation where the the budget's been overspending because you have two listers that are working in collecting salary and the questions that various like board members of pose to me as you know what's the workload like when we compare it to how much is left to do when they set the brand list every year it seems to be a busy time in what we do we now and then and those are really questions thousand dollars to me for the listers time and then amount of one thousand dollars to pay for a contract assessors time and then historically those two budgets have gone back and forth depending on so to discuss first of all we were invited to this like word to present a report to the select board but was no details on what we were supposed to present to you no questions were twenty twelve budget is up the same exact numbers are for twenty twelve twenty thirteen yes ok so you have budgeted for one minister for the past three or four years you now have two listers we have no control over what you budget what you haven't budgeted we've never participated in a process we are stopped by state statute as you describe we are responsible for the gram list putting we are not prepared to answer budget questions or do you compose a budget to you we are we didn't even know if we're our own department or if we have a department head and if we're supposed to participate at that level i don't even know which through that process but we have never participated in the budget so and neither has michael hampton because that's what he's told us and a listers before them there's never been a report put in front of the slug board other than the annual report that gets put out to all of the the property owners yearly in the time report zone of the year the supposed to know of what was there is a report just like all the rest of the departments provide to you if you want us to i mean we are prepared to do a present we took some time today to put together what were charged with doing under state statue and what we're responsible for and such and the timelines the state has set timelines what happens every month and those kinds of things if you want to get down to the detail as far as what our job entails like i said we don't know what you want us to report to you or how you want to re you we can we can do a presentation for you as far as what the listers do as like board members you are unaware of what we do but i'm pretty sure a couple of you've been here for a few years and never had a  presentation done before never requested one so for us we're going to do what you want us to do so the public can be aware of what we do but it kind of feels a little odd that we're sitting here we've got no way to tell you about a budget that we had no input into here and the last us liquid meeting there was a discussion about a hundred thousand dollars overage in a specific department and yet they were all well that's go be reimbursed from this fund well if you're if the celebrities on aware of how the funding for the listers office happens i have a former minister that would be able to speak on that topic but there is a provision in accounted for yet how they are going out of our department that please please charge us with that request out of us and we can do that but at this point in time we've never we've come and done our evaluation review and verify how the funds are paid to the town and that there too should be two separate accounts set up one payment occurs and i believe that is the town you have one so i was just going to say i mean as far as the who's the head of your department i mean it is as elected officials it's the public in mind and in my understanding just like us we're elected officials and the head of our of our department is is the public and they're the ones who keep us in check i mean to some extent i suppose that when we have a town manager is is the town manager will kind of be are going to but i mean we're we are in checks and balances and so it would be good i'm going to assume that that that is your department you're the lister apartment and some of that anything related to that is your guys responsibility including proposing a budget now i'm being able to say that it wasn't involved in know we have a budget and i mean i think that i think that your point is well taken it would be good to have this through but for the budget they're literally going forward now that we've had this conversation and that it may be the milage it let me make me going forward with with first so what we what we want to request from you is a player to complete the grand list for fiscal year two thousand and thirteen under the currently approved budget and how you plan to do that now we know that you wouldn't have that tonight but that's  praise of which are commercial properties and some of the new construction that was budgeted one thousand dollars jeff i think we discussed last year's budget s twenty five hundred i was collected in march i can't control what happened last year but on average even the past three years before at that average was a minimum of twenty five hundred dollars so the question is why did you own farmed a thousand dollars would you like best and tell her that they can only get paid a portion of what then used to pay how would you like us to plan  blister and as you said the list was not accepting payment and contractors it was between three and five thousand dollars the budget believed was set based on the past and that past history and if that changed and that probably should have gone up but it didn't and so what we need is some information about about the plan and going for it and how to stay in the budget that we have for twenty thirteen if that's at all possible and if what you want to tell us that it's not possible we need to know that now too we have that i have been in the office sense mark i think it's important you understand what we do what we have other projects meeting work for the twenty thirteen for the school well i can give you a snapshot of multiple big finances because they're giving away money at an extremely low rate of interest so every time a property is refinanced there's about a five step steps involved on a daily basis where we have to update photographs if we come to a sketch some little point to us we need to schedule but they still get on this property get a card there's no photo of the photo exists but the house burned down there's a new mobile home they are you need a picture of it so it's not something that well here's my work it's done here's the greatest it's over be cuz this stuff amounts up we're buying things that we're updating as a computer programmer needs updating you meet new information on the card and it's not something that you say well there i change the oil it's done i don't have to do it for another three thousand miles so it's ongoing it's filing it's a very small amount of typing but i think if there's any consideration the consideration for  what how do you propose to stay within that and if that is not possible how much over do you think you'll be that's what we need to know i understand your question chris christie the first time i don't have an answer was just a new deck realist built based on the current the permit drives us to look at something that it came to my attention that it was about thirty properties and towns that  so that's why we ask for an extension if you all know that we have a one week extension with about twenty four hours to fix those of the probably so we wanted to make sure there were others things like that i don't honestly know how if we can stay within that like i don't know how that budget was created based on what i can tell the fact you are undervalued what you are actually paying out to suck on tractors i of those items and both think that's the case no that is the case that the twenty twelve it was merely ten thousand dollars ok so that was over the ninety thousand dollars that was budgeted for the twenty to both fiscal year so far for twenty thirteen and this is in the two months so far the data that i have shows that the listers of charge about forty seven hundred dollars now obviously if you keep on at that pace there are the ninety thousand dollars will be spent  but we know that some of those because my clinton didn't take salary in those in those years i'm not saying that it's that that i'm not making the case that the the time that you spent was not spen correctly there if there is a backlog of work that needs to be done because it wasn't done in previous years and whatever that's fine but we need to know what that is and we need to know how much more of that there is going forward i want to state that it's not necessarily a bac verified distance as you walk verified there's a deck on there with no rail so we can't say that there is going to be any end to the work because the general ledger and the town properties you know that whole it's a fluid process the select four to find a way to make that happen to research those accounts to research the money that comes in from property value waste and taxation to find out where that money is because that is supposed to be the buffer for the budget and that money should roll over so i'm   that fifteen thousand five thousand goes in one of their accounts which is for maintenance of the grand list and ten thousand goes on reappraisal or vice versa i don't know exactly when the highway department went over my hundred thousand you said of all we have seen the money coming in and listers offices kind of the same way you're getting paid i'm really basis to maintain that brand this if you put that money in your savings account and don't use it toward those two months well i believe that the that the the amounts are nearly one hundred dollars for salaries and sixteen hundred in change which i believe it's the copying bill from the but i thought that's what we were doing here is inviting listeners to come in and have a conversation so that we could play so that we would know that in that in a situation where the cost is not what it has been in the previous years and for reasons that you know may make a lot of sense we need to just need to be made what is clear is that the amount that was budgeted however that budget was set is not adequate to cover the charges that have been made to that account ok and that for the last fiscal year and that for the current fiscal year if blisters continue to charge at the rate they have we will exceed the amounts in that account that's about the only thing that we are allowed to stay on and from from from with what you said on the job it sounds like it's more than it's not like a full time job or even to sometimes so soon that being the case when you guys were like and we've already spent however much time we're going to we're going to blow this budget we should talk to somebody about this circle where does the word go actually i understand suits of the work is the working clearly it's more than a thousand dollars a year then why when the realisation that the work is t work and it's more than eight thousand dollars was there not a conversation with this like your area with the town administrator or with somebody first indication i had that there was an issue and you all went into an executive session happen but what has happened so and realistically if there is a potential for two to lister's we should probably budget for two and then if we don't have to we're in good shape so i would like to recommend that we we move forward looking at the remainder of this year working with you to figure out what that looks like what the hours are going to be and what that end result will be and then we also start because we're going to start building our budget for next year we'll work with set aside for a listers to copy and we know that there's money set aside and if it needs to be set aside for whatever other incidentals and we are tracking salaries that we need to be tracking now based on the fact that we could have to list two so we might need to budget for t understand bidets and those kinds of things because maybe you could help with the projection since we haven't been in the position for a period of time and done a budget and gone forward like that and to understand if there's going to be some kind of breakdown in detail that's never been there before the other thing would be is how do we verify how are we allowed to just like your other departments for a purchase order if you go through those kinds of processes just like everybody else so that we know what's being to i think it's very important for people to realize that we are not overspending if you are under budget for something and the work is getting done and we are doing equalization said to the state of vermont which calculates the c in the c m d and we are completing the grandness of providing the dislike with the corps level report and we're doing everything based on what the timeframe is the state requires us to do and how the state requires us to do it then it's not fair to say we're running extremely over budget we were never aware of a budget that we were supposed to go by and i think it's very important that even though we are left it officials that we do to go similarly to your other departments if your other departments willing to do that and if and if that works for you guys one of them will just let you arrange a time to get together and would like to say one more thing in closing when i was on the select but at the six years i did not take a salary all the years that i was on there i did take some salary but it wasn't oh there's you know i'm doing the for this big check but i also sell funding everything except for the first meeting and i decided when i was in this was and i was not going to self fund anything that michael hampton had given enough of his time that he performed in a professional manner in an office and making professionalism and that we were going to do exactly the same but i'm not doing it myself funding for any of the classes because there's a degree of professionalism  had was going to actually take all of the evidence for the hearing up until that point we were led to believe that the because it was not going to hear the case so the documents that had been prepared for the state of vermont not for the b c s but the state of vermont and the town attorney was only one packet was only one package and it had been done by us and by hand having nothing to do with copies made and where outs at eleven o'clock that morning we were told that we have to have our evidence ready to go to be sitting here while all the things that were highlighted and all the things that needed to be done in color could not physically been done by the staff of the tower bridge from who would need to have done that it wasn't a listers who would be required to do that we had to bring just like a lawyer came to the cia hearing with one copy we have to bring one copy but in order for all of fifteen or more members sitting around that table to have a copy understand and be able to call the hearing we had only hours to get those three to four inch stacks of documents prepared for the so here we did that it's done it's over with we have no intent to ever ever ever go to any place of business outside of here on behalf of the town of richmond and make any purchases let me be clear with that again we will never make any purchases such as photocopy postage not one penny will well i think that we're going to have to do that until we can until the end in value eight months what that there's work out there work that my didn't know so i think that that's what we're going to have to do and then in the meantime we'll we'll do a better job of planning well i think there's still the issue of understanding what's good happening now and what's plan what what do you still need to perform in the twenty thirteen fiscal year so let's put it on the agenda for the next meeting and hopefully you all have a chance to talk between now and then and you can bring something back ok but but then but that but i agree that that we should allow the there twelve dollars an hour rate and as of the hours that we worked between that time that you went into executive session to stop our cars which now it's just back about you could go into executive session discuss  hour but i need to know are we going to get paid for the hours that we actually work since what you said after that elected after that executive session you directed the town administrator to send us a memo to stop paying us i was going to pay for the hour's work since you never made a motion to stop paying us so we're going to get paid for the hours we've actually worked this past two weeks i think what we're creamery parcel right over there and unfortunately it could not be here he really wanted to be here tonight to chat with you but he's taking the sunday college radio this time so he could make it so he wanted to send his apologies for not being here and as i said you know you have a full agenda and i want to take very much of your time what i want to do is two things first of all i don't think it's a secret that we believe and i guess judging from the  conversation and dialogue we have the other night that this is an important parcel and in the village of richmond and a critical one that obviously we are and use the word struggling rightfully struggling to develop and that really just so you know sort of our rationale for participating in the zoning process and we've been at it for a couple of years with the planning commission and we certainly accept where that is ended up and we would not quarrel had going slee as you saw two weeks ago of those of you were here at the hearing you know recognize that we were advocating for getting the full density out of the six acres i don't put words in craig's mouth but you know his thinking has whoa he's been you know he's paying taxes on six six acres of land when in fact he really mainly has three acres of developable land so that was i think one issue in the back of his mind nonetheless and i think having said that i think we will give and take through the course of our discussions with the slip board but but number one primarily we have no intention of developing the property in any other man that will and that will fit this village so we're not here to suggest something that for all of us to recognize secondly and at it you know you're certainly aware maybe some of you are aware that the group and richard representing the senior center initiative has approached us and we have  been chatting with them over time and craig's actually just preparing a letter to them to really indicate his support for including that element in that part of  development in any any project going forward at this time and in fact on he's got for it and he will be offering them you know free land on which to put the center and he would be willing to provide them as part of the proposal on planning designs and planning and design assistance and in fact he's already done that we've already looked at the footprint and the potential of integrating the senior center into the development proposal and how that would work so i think he's made a very good faith offer we think it's a good fed we obviously believe that that type of facility is ideally located in the center of town and so that is certainly something that we are certainly working with them purely in an objective and good faith effort so there's they're not trying to push anybody to do anything that they don't want to do nor are we so it's  really quite above board we have nothing to hide or no secrets to talon terms of the discussions we've been having with them in fact kathleen for example sat in on a couple of discussions that we have right in this room with that group  secondly we do that in vision ultimately an opportunity to partner with the tap as we go forward and one of the ways that can happen is basically as i said a moment ago of the six we believe that could be a wonderful sort of community park or area that the town could have access to and use we also certainly see depending on how the development proposal sugar's off that you know shared parking could be considered and obviously some nights are vents here where there's not enough parking you know a large you know suitable parking lot next door connected by a walkway to this parcel might provide that opportunity to the community as well  one of the things we fine as it is i'm sure you're aware of the major challenge for the project is the fact that it is a brownfield site and the the reason one of the reasons the development cost is so high is that we have to plug in quite a few hundred thousands of dollars to address or mediation we have talked with the agency of community development conversely community development and they've given us some options one option that we might like you to consider we're not asking for a yes or no just want to plant that seed right now is the notion that if the developer or the owner would enter into some kind of partnership arrangement with  developers so not that we want to you know get into the details of that it's just something i wanted to put out there for us to think about and in fact perhaps for you consider we're not in it huge rush today to move towards development we're still really trying hard to find a partner as you might imagine money for investment right now in land development in commercial development residential development it's hard to come by  and that's one reason that over the last two years that i've been involved in this project we've really had no luck in getting anybody to step forward and just to bring it full circle one of the reasons why we're trying to beef up the housing density is because every potential developer we talked to said you know clearly housing is a really good fit for this site and you know obviously being able to develop as much housing but the second place possibly fit or afford it made sense from that perspective and that's why one reason we pursued that with the with the planning commission however we're also definitely committed along with the senior center to have commercial development on the property to have office development was just to update you on what i'm going to do is you know obviously some things were distributed last week on that or two weeks ago that we didn't necessarily want to discuss this tributed without a context for them so what we've done now is we've just sort of put together a what we're calling a preliminary get out on a proposal we're nowhere near you know applying for a zoning permit obviously this is proposed under the zoning to be adopted not under current zoning in place  we're working hard to make it work in that in that within those parameters on so this is sort of give you a sense of what that development would look like a little bit of an overview of just some very broad base mention of sort of kind of contest ok so the proposed buildings are we have a i don't have the number off the top of my head but we have the relative square footage that the total a residential development would require or propose because under the current and kathleen for prescription if i'm wrong but depending on the total square footage of the residential development we would be required to build at least fifty percent additional square footage for commercial retail use so we're proposing about fifteen units we have twelve units according to the propose owning and a thirty percent bonus if we build affordable or senior housing which would be the tend to mingle in among the market rate housing  units that that would be proposed and then there are three separate buildings that would how's a senior center perhaps an office complex or business and then a small footprint as i mentioned out from  here to sort of provide the street frontage for the developer is about a little over two thousand square feet top and bottom the vision roughly between senior center and the commercial the senior center folks have have said that they're looking to have about five thousand square feet of their facilities of the total square footage that you see under the commercial square footage five thousand of impervious surface may be impervious to a previous pavement yes absolutely i mean we haven't obviously got to that point to detailing it but you know we have hopefully state of the art school more treatment with by retention current technology and energy conservation and efficiency in mind and also again this is really a conceptual stage or schematic stage the notion of having some outdoor facilities albeit and you know there's a there's a number of different facets to this property and there's even some of the open agricultural fields at the base of the park or a fee that you know certainly could be developed in any number of different ways for public use  and in the present been some discussion of there being road access into the town center parking lot but i don't see that on this well it's certainly something i mean we didn't i didn't want to take that step  i felt that would be something that if the town saw the value to that i think we would definitely be willing to do to provide that i mean obviously right now there is a right of way through that access point out to the field for farm use that to leave canada on certainly could consider that as as an alternative access do you know that that some of the loot of that road would probably be in  anyone about it you know i think it's probably premature now to really that it if you will in terms of the review process because you know what i wouldn't sit here and tell you what you see in that plan is what will ultimately be submitted you know to the town for development of you something like that probably will be we're right at that stage where we're regrouping and with this particular proposal that we've just literally redeveloped over the last week we've got to take it out with and then sell it to the investors and potential partners and there is one interested party potentially in the but we've had others to parties in the past to exit appeared very quickly particularly when they got a feel for what the remediation process and cost was going to be so that's a very big hurdle so i think certainly  in my profession we've got a photograph of examples only to sort of suggest here some of the thinking not to say here's what it will be so we can definitely see a really constructive dialogue with instigate a long drawn out you know fight anyway and i don't think anybody has an interest in that at all so i think had the opportunity time certainly you know welcome that process and i would say  it's talked about everything there we have completed it's called a corrective action feasibility investigation was really the final step to sort of identify exactly what has to be done to the site appropriately and  that was through the assistance of the region to the commission which has been really wonderful really appreciate anything else in the public mind thanks david go there there certainly would be an impact on the driveway should should this become used as a road so it's just something that probably should be discussed again  something we've known about from kathleen's discussions and hope we're open you know to to discuss and i didn't mean to suggest that it was something that this like board was was interested in or not just i was curious because i had heard it was part of of earlier discussions and i didn't see it here but i would like to invite you to come back any time that you've you know if you have a specific request in terms of grant application for example or anything else you'd like to share with us i think you're advocating for what we felt were our interests how are we very much accept and appreciate the good work of the planning commission we have no quarrel with their decision making process we want to advocate for what we felt reflected our needs but and they do have new bylaws in effect i would like to propose that we make some other more significant changes to the fee structure but for right application excuse me which right now has been sixty dollars and we would propose to reduce that to ten dollars for just the cost of getting it recorded proposing had is an interim step and chris bremmer things that it would be better not to encourage that so there's a higher fee maybe people can actually get the work done within the timeframe  within there's only permit and then the fourth change is to create a new category for development any development in the flood hazard overlay district for basically repairs that would not require or zoning approval if the property were located outside of the floodplain so this would be one way immediately for those folks who do have to continue to get the property outside of the plan they couldn't have to do get a permit for deer be approval at all so basically the only cost there would be a ten dollar fee for what has to be accorded each page it has to get record an appropriate way to to do it just to the temporary certificate of occupancy you knew you got a little bit i don't understand the difference between that and you kind of alluded to it a little bit can you elaborate just for me close sure  with the new by law there's a provision for a temporary certificate of occupancy right now that doesn't exist and that would be used and a lot of people not a lot but a certain number of people would like to have a face project or be able to finish a certain part of the house and then use it and then come back for the final certificate back and soon we don't have any mechanism for commercial project they haven't finished the landscaping or they haven't finished all of the same site plan review items that are approved by the d r b they could get a temporary certificate i can see begin using the space for use in the structure and and get the final within a certain amount of time for the new year and there will be obviously checks and balances there will be something keeping track of temporary and when it your taxes taken and sort of changes that will be needed when the new zoning rents come into there are some areas that could be better better captured for folks  the other towns for instance ha i think particularly related to our subdivision fees they're fairly restricted or they're fairly narrow we don't differentiate between residential or change this or i or because i just i just i mean granted doesn't take a lot of time but it's a instead of it being a two step process sounds actually going to be a four step because we have to do this one and i mean to do another reading and adopt it and then you're going to go through the it certainly would be a service and then in terms of the certificate back and see if there had been a lot of comment about why the charity about that we do and if we could simply the projects for we would come back with other wholesale changes would be to do that kind of analysis i don't think that changing these fees right now will really result in a change  additions to the road schedule we're changing existing road names i sort of have the same thoughts that are running through your head so why do we have to do this although it makes sense that if you're going to change  it be better for the public you have a public hearing before you do that this is fairly straightforward noncontroversial but if you ever want to name a road after somebody get somebodies name off  old field road old field is one word on the schedule we're changing that to two words to hold field the road it had to set or a matter of road private road seventy five minute changes a lot of times we've had people especially like on the young drivers with the weight of the old spell and were playing when people are refinancing or selling and have a lot of the researchers have a big problem tonight what we are going to do is the select board is going to discuss our next steps for moving forward we were not going to take public comment at this time given the three hours three plus hours that we already spent on that but to have our discussion in the public so that people are aware of the call and just to reiterate for everyone where we are in this process right now is the application has been submitted we're waiting to hear back from with the property owner for the final transfer of the property so we're not going to discuss the negotiations tonight and we took the recorded points that citizens were concerned that we negotiate on but those in those are those are simply executive session items so they will be done now  and as i mentioned does not cover items for negotiation with the with the rules when we come to that point but i did want to start by making  a couple sort of statements of where the where the talents proceeding on this and also respond to some concerns that were raised actually a special meeting last week  there were several attendees isn't just of the town was attempting to somehow profit from the few map location and i want to make clear that's not the town's motivation in submitting the application and that the most likely outcome will be something that costs to the town percent project match someone either the town or the fools would need to provide roughly sixty seven thousand dollars under the the application as it is written  now if approved the application would provide maximum amount of funding in several categories to achieve certain things purchased property mitigate any environmental hazards and demolish three structures that are on the property now if if any of those costs exceed those limits those would be custom be borne by the parties involved and again we'll cross that bridge when we come to environmental i forget the language are you talking contamination or are you potential contamination or are you talking because it was my understanding that  doesn't cover any kind of remediation of contamination is that the cover of phase one environmentalists scientists asked me and that's basically a review of the history of the property a site visit a search of known contaminants to the property whether it was a dry cleaning operation i mean i used to do these and in my former life and it reports to the potential buyer that says these are the potentials do you want to investigate and then that's when a kind of accelerates from their so and it was my understanding that family pays for phase one e s a it's actually phase one e s a and not the remediation so if there was any contamination whether it be from a fuel tank that happened to take over in the basement when the floodwaters were you know were raised or if you know a car was  recently became aware that they a g w savage estimate was provided to quinn's lack of by the rules in december but was not made part of the application so one of the things that  and possibly also move it to another site in town well my understanding and and and let's explore was a little bit is that any solution that that would include keeping it in its current location the floodplain and is while preserving the option that would allow for the preservation of the home after the property is acquired instead of demolition just to keep your options open and to give the historical society a chance to look for funds if they explore or relocating it somewhere on the existing property or possibly helping and i know there's been some back and forth about whether or not that's possible i think  every time to determine whether or not they really want to proceed by accepting the property under the terms of the application and well here's here's where i come down on that i guess the slick board take in the in the money that we spent and we can't fulfill that obligation without a better evaluation of the status of the property at this point we don't know what agent of the select board  done in the evaluation of that a complete walkthrough or or environmental assessment of the property at this point and i do not feel comfortable with  i think we i mean right i mean i think we know that and we have contractors that we have stuff from that it's it's the environmental we get potential out of the property because essentially it's getting is we're getting the property we're i mean yes we're getting the house but for all intents and purposes i think at least in my head the house is it is a it's it's gone it's it's going to it's right and so that's going to be carted off so what are we left with what's left on the property what's left on the on the land is is there something that we're going to have to manage on that land and that i don't know about i think based on what you just  historical value you know are there options to preserve it there are some morales around and so i think that at this point we haven't ruled out anything but if there's an assessment to be done i think right you know years old that there needs to be kind of a proposal on how you're going to mitigate the damage to the property and if it actually just completely destroyed then you have to say how you're going to preserve that and that could just be the pictures it could what's what's happening here is that federal money is being used to do something on a historic property so either it can get reduced rather destroyed these have to document it and preserve that that's being worked on yes i bet doesn't necessarily tell you what what kind of value that my parents to the community it's essentially coming up with the administrative plan on just exactly how rationally describe it it doesn't it doesn't tell you that there's a threshold where there's so much a squirrel value to the point where you might consider some other program that's really we're responsible for for whatever we send them as far as whether or not you feel that building should be preserved i think it's largely going to come down to can anything else but i think maybe just expanding on that is just you know clarifying the values that that's what i've been stopped on the street about since last week have we done enough to board earlier version of us approved the application to go in there and have responsibility for due diligence on the information that went into that application fema that has to of the damage which we've already talked about that came from g w savage which is a contractor which is it's a it's a trusted vendor and then the last value i think of that's the final one that made i need to get it figured out until we enter to praised value and that's that's that's kind of an unknown is because there hasn't been an appraisal on the property because fema hasn't approved the application hasn't done the final approval of the application and i think that appraisal that part of the value tom brady so yeah but i guess it's going back to maybe it's having you know phase one structural engineer or a structural engineer to kind of  there was never a site visit to back up the determination so it backs up that estimate means for evaluation and we haven't heard anything to the contrary about that i think the point of what's the what is the final value of the of the property it's  as long as fema isn't ok really if you don't have a grip because we don't have any concerns about the quality of the information that went into it and the question is is could we have done something better but did we need females  ok so i think at this point because we we don't know what team in the state are going to do the only thing that i'm proposing that we come out of this discussion is is direction to j in writing to the select board emails fine and we're going to move on to other business at this point but they're there we're not going to have we're not have discussion in public  with the public tonight i think you do a great job with the peter stance the nature of the job and the on call aspect of it he's willing to do  i clarified some of the final items mr robinson's work remains unchanged not really it's my response where we've made some additional headway in getting some credits look on the last page  items are located in the attached spreadsheet and you can get an idea of what the dates were for a lot of the mistakes particularly the double payments on the deep peace fred sheet which most of them happened supply that were continue to work out but a lot of the significant double payments and balance forwards that were getting paid were in that first year in the past in the in the last six months there if you looked  at the amount that he identified or spreadsheets really dropped off in fact they were the really only a couple of double payments they identify in that spreadsheet in two thousand and twelve that were outside of the range that he had identified as i'm ok i can spreadsheet difficult to read i mean the thing that we're interested in is is what's the trend line here is the is there a clear trend to decreasing frequency of these kinds of there's in my opinion yes if you take if you go through and you look at what kind of mistakes were made in two thousand and twelve they represent a very they really have fallen off significantly you're always going to have a mistake here or there you know it's important we always try to catch them but you can see from the volume of what's identified it's clearly it and and i then the policies that were discussed at previous meetings of of how invoices should be submitted by department heads at those and in place now and yes i had to hatch the new accounts payable policy which is an internal policy that directs department heads what to do when they submit bills for payment and how to properly identify what they want to pay and i believe that's working out well but also says we're  and that would allow for the bills that come to the water and sewer department to get paid closer to when they come do so for example the electricity bill comes the first week of august and we meet the first day of august or the first or second day of august then that more doesn't get paid to begin september or shortly thereafter so it's already past due to the time we have and we need so we need in the middle of the month the bills that come due at the beginning of the month hopefully want to meet so we proposed that we were missing two members from our commissioners meetings after this seeding so we decided to table that decision to   whether or not that's the right thing for the board to do is another question i tend to feel that it will open up other requests and will be faced with competing food vendors for that area but that's my most significant objection if you know so right after that meeting about the hot dog cart like the next day i was sitting in the office and the zoning office somebody came in and wanted to do a barbecue know like parking and traffic i mean it's already a busy street and there's already not a lot of parking and you know the traffic is there's not a lot of cross walks and even if there are sometimes there are no i mean it's it's just it's a busy street and then if you don't do it on this street where you can do it i feel like that's less than an issue then and setting a precedent because really they want to do is serve the people who are already there people who are already parking there and people first first you know first in you have to manage a calendar and you have to manage permits and and it's the first time it in for those dates and one can say that somebody could apply for every weekend for all summer rain and nobody else you have the the ability to approve that use there's no there's no kind of policy that regulates anything other than you you essentially write a letter agreeing to let him use it under certain conditions there's no nothing that addresses the other issues such as what's the penalty if you deviate from that you know somebody else was feeling dates thing is that it would be the same idea as these companies that that's come into the fairgrounds to sell tools and then they leave it you know all the hardware stores pay taxes you know all the people that are here pay taxes  not knowing exactly how the farmer's market mechanism was approved it's allowed in government but it's in the interests of the word precedent and i believe that's already been set with the little league betting that's going on i agree with linda so this is not me trying to say oh yeah i want a hot dog stand around it's me saying you're already allowing bending who to occur under certain conditions you already are and sometimes is you know an option but maybe i don't know maybe tanking on to a plant for the farmers market and know that what they're looking for is an opportunity for this young man because i don't know if we want to talk about this now but i kind of looked at the team a report the application for the  the substantial damage was an issue so i just brought it up so we made money on it sort of bring it up maybe later well let's i mean we've concluded that agenda item design and i don't think we should discuss that now but  general templates that exist for marriage things for e p a and the fans and they don't necessarily apply to small sets to small towns that was just m not this one yes but no this one as i just said page one line thirty seven and this lord said that she thought she could compile questions she has received by the close of business wednesday that are not like questions all right let's move on to the twenty first special meeting we come back again on this next week  if we do it this here it's going to be done in october possibly maybe a situation where we really have to come up with  and what the venting requirement is i did get proposals for removing the just bestest line vent in the basement which was just under four thousand dollars which is a good price but i can't do that until really we're ready to go with the other boilers i think we can get it done this year but it's going to be very difficult to get the sense of the word about how well you would be there is there might be a chance to do something slightly different and i am sort of struggling as i go along to figure out what the best way would be and how to communicate that if it's back to a contract or try i would say that i'm probably a week away from getting something i can send down if i set out with a minimum two week time to submit something you know we're talking to the final week of september to work something at the we may not know that option because the chimney doesn't go straight out there sort of the case you might be able to get a flexible about of that from there or you might i think those are that's one of the things people up we can start making money so they have they have an incentive to get out faster or to get it in service foster but then if they're not by it we have a magical cold spell at the end of october and then it holds then we can just say i'm sorry but you know economic grads most of these are due in early october if you have any ideas for grants or you know of anybody that has ideas for grants please contact me at all put it on the agenda for discussion over from the heinsberg road portion of it so that you could at least get down over through the s curves it's extremely hazardous for bikers for people that are traveling down the hill because they go over into the left hand lane to avoid some very town is doing would hope that you michael i'm concerned that some of the drainage work may be m p to the twenty four foot right of what that the twelve foot travel portions that there might be some encroach is certainly in addition to all the other expected expenses i think it was sorely needed one as reason for saying she needs extra time is trying to go and angela thank you for your