may i ask that you please turn off or silence your cell phones or other noisemaking devices that afternoon my name is laurie terrigal watch i am the facilitator for the special committee on the on the  i've been retained to provide neutral guidance assistance and supervision to the special committee pursuant to resolution fifteen dash one fifty five and under the council chairs authority as chief procurement officer for the legislative branch i see that we have a quorum we need six necessary to conduct the business i will first asked special committee staff to accept any testimony regarding the selection of a chair for the special committee and then proceed to the election of the chair after the chair is selected the special committee can determine which portions of the meeting will be managed by the facilitator and which will be managed by the chair at this time i will ask him wi bring to assist him thank you madam facilitator proceeding with public testimony for individuals who will be testifying in the chamber up at the school located in the eighth floor lobby just outside the chamber door if you will be testifying from one of the remote testimony location specified on the meeting agenda please sign up at the district office staff at that location the testimony is limited to three minutes at two and a half minutes the light  testifier stand will turn yellow and at three minutes the light will bring red if you are talking at the three minute time that i will ask you to kindly stop when you begin your testimony please state your name and the name of any organization you are representing we have established a connection to the district offices through video conferencing so residents from those sites can testify and to be fair we will rotate tween the offices we will first be taking test office is there anyone in the hart office wishing to testify on their preference for a committee chair i'm here to speak on behalf of jonathan starr for selection as cheer i've known him for more than several decades but more relevant to this decision today is i sure w met he gives everybody a chance to speak if there would be a chance to be heard he shows respect he's even handed he sees the big picture as well as very detail person  we used to get minutes and i kind of skipped over them he would read them in detail and know what was going on i believe that he will be even handed his cheer and it office is there anyone in in the night with wishing to testify on their preference for a committee chair committee chair there is no one waiting to testify thank you molokai madam facilitator there is no one in the chamber so far wishing to testify on the selection of a committee chair is there anyone who would like to do that they could come up and fill out their form later there's no one in the chamber wishing to testify on the committee chair   i saw her manage a lot of different issues that came before her everything from affordable housing public housing the war offshore fishing and she managed to employ all the resources to get the right people involved make sure the board was active her meetings were always prompt there were no delays very efficient board i think this group would be very fortunate to have her as a chair move through the issues quickly she's very knowledgeable in local government state and city and so i i think i would hope you will look very hard at manage r thank you madam facilitator does not appear others i mean more testimony on the chair thank you but like testimony on the election of the chair is now closed unless there are any objections i'd like to proceed with the elections of the chair of this committee and i want to start off with an open nomination for chair at this time please indicate by raising your hand if you would like to nominate yourself or a colleague as share when recognized please state who you would like to nominate ok now the method of voting is the prerogative of the committee but without objection the staff could now conduct an election by secret ballot you are receive a ballot with the names of all of the special committee members and you may indicate your selection of any one of those who has been nominated by marking a line by the nominees name on the ballot if you mark a name of a person who has not been nominated your ballot will be deemed abstention and not be counted when you have marked your ballot please folded in half and it will be collect by the staff staff will tabulate the ballots and return the report results to me any nominee receiving six votes will become chair staff will you please distribute the ballots now and if you would mark your ballots fold it and then raise your hand indicating that you're  finished ok at this time would like to call a ten minute recess as they tabulate the votes so we will eat back in ten minutes gavel the meeting of the special committee on county governance will now come to order thank you for that recess no nominee received six votes so we will repeat the vote  why they want to be chair and that will help you further to decide on who you'd want to vote for the chair is everyone in agreement to that  better turned this around in a speech and i've been told ok i think that what i bring to the chair being chair weighed be a consensus building ability and i think that's really important i think that there will be controversy and there's whether we like it or not there will be controversy and i think it's important that we listen and again work to b standing in the chair my the way that i see the chair is being sorry if you'll forgive me more of a facilitator  then someone who sets the agenda i think is this committee each member needs to be part of setting the agenda of what we are going to do and i think that's very important to me respecting the public resource and most of all respecting your time because you have busy lives and it's important that we stick to like a timeline  to look into possibilities of altering our government structure in the county and this is something it's a great opportunity and it needs to be fun and it's to be inspiring and needs to be something that we can all feel proud of that we're doing it in a positive way and in a very thorough and intelligent way without wasting time and you know i look at it it's a great opportunity for the greatest process in understanding our government function on maui that is ever occurred i love doing this type of thing i chaired the water commission for the state last year i was kind of uniquely made up presiding officer and contested cases when i was chair of the planning commission and when it goes good everyone everyone enjoys the process gets what they have  no time is wasted it's important to work with staff the chair has to work with staff on agendas on figuring out what's the most efficient way to move the thing through the process it is and respect the process so if you choose me i would really work hard to make sure we we get it done we get it done as efficiently and quickly as and completely as possible and  know i didn't nominate myself but i would gladly serve thought if selected i can make one promise i will do the best that i could to make sure that we never have to take a ten minute break manner thank you very much and thank you tony all right without objection we're going to have a roll call vote i will now staff to assist with that we'll call ok this is why i would have attorneys involved all right we will have a ballot vote but you will indicate your names on the ballot so that we can take record have a record of that amount  ok but is it required that they have their names on the ballot would you like to share some words with regards to the need to be sure one other acquirements of the sunshine law which will learn about later is that any vote taken by this body is going to be recorded by individual member so the minutes have to reflect how each vote is taken when the body meets and it's in its public session can be done by roll call that's a ministerial success so mr talk attorney has been elected chair ok now that the committee has elected a chair i would like to hear from the members as to what your role for me would be for today i'm the king the chair can take this position and i can continue facilitating the agenda or the chair can take this position and facilitate the agenda for the day question jo and we call the meeting back to order it's a different view from up here it's my pleasure to introduce each of our special committee members today  is high now it isn't it's paul kiley pony county and i am testifying as part of that commission on the work that we are currently doing on the same topic that you will be looking at here as a special committee during our time we were first task with this back in august as a request from both the county council as well as from the mayor's office we unwittingly accepted the task and have been working since then to try to put together reports we've been active in both this body as well as in the policy and intergovernmental affairs committee in trying to understand this topic give it to the importance that it has for the citizens of mali and provide an objective and as complete an analysis as we possibly can we are very heartened by your commitment and your time to work on this is well because we felt that as per our charter call and duty that we were asked to look at issues that are specific to the efficiency and economy of a proposed change towards a council manager system such during within our meetings we've made it  a key important role for our commission to take a look at topics that are specific to the idea of economy and efficiency coming from a change towards a council manager role as opposed to a stronger system which is what we are currently  under we've done some basic work on that already and we are more than happy to share any findings as they come along with this committee as well as any other resources or information that we have received during any of the interviews that we've already had or any of the other information that we've currently got and you will of course look at your own sources and we encourage you to do so and to not limit yourselves at all to anything that we've done the topics that we've chosen within this specifically look at the issues of turnover from moving from a strong marriage to a council manager system efficiency and economy between those issues changes in executive costs within executive offices and personnel between a council manager and the executive and issues stemming to the professionalism or rather professional qualifications of specifically the managing director as a proxy to the council manager those are topics that we are currently looking at we have other topics that we had identified earlier in our analysis but decided not to take because we are scared of them and there are ones that we would expect you to take a look at if you'd like to know what those topics were i'd be more than happy to share with you those things as a last issue we are very happy that you chose the second thursdays of every month because that's when we have our meeting as well and we would appreciate it greatly if you were to keep your meetings on the second thursday so that we could report to you on a regular basis of the things that we go over in ours i would like our committees to work together as much as possible thank you for any questions for dr curtis it's more i'd like to hear the items that you're afraid of the two main topics that we felt would be better served not by our body stem primarily from the assertion that a council manager system would limit the concept of politics affecting issues and policies within the county a second issue that we felt would be better served by this body would be issues of accountability of a council manager verses a merrill system we were on the fence to a degree of looking at the professional qualifications of those as well but we ultimately decided that we take at least a small portion of that and take a look at that if there are other topics that you have by all means they are all yours and the other question i think you check so you've been meeting quite frequently and have been discussing what's going on today is it possible to get minutes at those meetings without having to wait for them all of our meetings are currently recorded by a cop and are online and you have full everything that we've discussed thus far according to sunshine law is available to you documents are not completely up online but we'd be more than happy to share with you any of the documentation that we've gathered so far as long as they are not under current copyright issues because we do have some issues especially with academic papers and sharing of purchased academic research and the results of that research to share for different purposes but we have our corporation counsel helping us out with those issues absolutely could you repeat what was your schedule and then with us at the same time toys who we meet we meet on the second thursday of every month at ten o'clock to twelve o'clock so i mean we're more than welcome to come to our meetings as well that's absolutely fine as long as it doesn't overlap a once a month once a month that is correct and trying to get us you we meet once a month currently in that is all that we are meeting this is that once a month we like you are of volunteer organization to produce a report and you'll report which we produce every year the usual time when we produce that report is between april around april april and may is what we're looking at doing and we are sticking to  that timeline will start deliberating recommendations from our reports we're aiming for march it will take us in march april to finalize all of those kinds of things that we look at preparing and presenting our reports are at least a version of  back and look at the documents that you've already already reviewed if you would like our participation to go over what it was we'd be more than happy to if we could schedule it you just have to schedule it and we'll get somebody in here to discuss very specifically what we've done so far what we would like to avoid is presenting any kind of recommendation because we are very very clear and very careful our corporation counsel mr coo she makes it very clear to us that we are not to talk about explicitly our recommendations but what we can share with you is method of how we're trying to figure out what it is that we're trying to figure out and share with you all of the documentation all the evidence that we've gathered so far similarly i think that it's important that we don't bias your viewpoints at all either so if we could avoid giving you any kind of recommendation at this point i would prefer to do that as well thank you i mean other questions can would you be the one that we would ask to follow up on to make sure that we have all of the reports i would say i suggest that you ask garrett evans who is our chair our commission chair thank you very much that yes chair our final person signed up to testimony for testimony today is rosemary robbins the last name because robbins or robinson robin good afternoon everybody and thank you so much for being willing to take this on just a couple of points and i'm here i've been around for a while and now in the last thirty three years but began teaching on of the changes that have come within the last ten years so there are folks who are comfortable with change and we know that not all change is progress but at least opens a door for improvement so i hope i think of it that way we did get pano into the maui county charter thanks to the folks who worked on the charity commission at that point we have had voter initiative for the first time here on maui that was voted into law then by the constituency we're still waiting to see that come to more progression than so far but it was the first time we've had that kind of a voter initial initiative and thirdly more of our high school students have registered to vote and have worked at the polls in the last election and the last point on this is what the seniors who are watching on our koku which for a long time didn't exist with that avenue of communication so those four major points i'm saying and of relatively short period of time within the and the other nominations self nominated or otherwise in people development organizational effectiveness in public policy in leadership roles in a variety of business cultures she was hired through a bid process by the council chair for use by this special committee she'll be present in all of our special committee meetings and we may call upon her expertise as we choose so without further ado laurie terrigal watching are you going to present now or are we just use you its entirety yes mr chair as you see on the television screen i have the resolution and i will do my best to read and not it you guys you've been so efficient let's see really go from here and now this cannot be waived we have an overview of the code of ethics and the sunshine law deputy corporation counsel linden just in from the department of corporation counsel has joined us today to provide an overview of the code of ethics and sunshine law part one chapter ninety two  i believe so please about five different things for today the first which is going to be important during your deliberations is the green charter then you have a handout that's going to look like this on the the first page which is going to be about the l county code of ethics so i say this is kind of old school or new school all schools you see these cartoons by harry alliance will have some of them throughout the presentation i understand this was kind of acting up today can you go to the next screen kim thanks this is what i call a new school which is porno which is doing what's right is another or another way of saying it live aloha sta bono so the policy underlying the code is that elected in appointed officers and employees are to demonstrate by their conduct and by their example the highest standards of ethical conduct so that the public can have trust and confidence in their and the integrity of government there's lots of studies about how the integrity of government is gauged by how the public perceives government also that has an impact on things like g d p and the growth of an economy because the less transparent governments are around worldwide you'll see that the level of corruption goes up which then drags down the whole country and the country's economy have ethics supplies dog county employees also elected appointed officials all board and commission members there is a board of ethics which is tasked with hearing allegations of violations of the code they also issue advisory opinions to employees and to people who ask for advisory opinions any person can follow a complaint and a county office or employee may also request an advisory opinion there is forms instructions on how to do this on the county's web page specifically under the department of the corporation council next sli are eight major prohibitions the first which is kind of big as a larger one is the prohibition on the solicitation or acceptance of gifts second is the use of confidential information outside business activities representing other people back to the county next line use of county property and personal financial interest disclosure requirements and voting restrictions on matters that appear before you can t contracts and post employment and you folks are sort of an unusual combination because you're not an elected official as much as it you look like you're sitting in the positions of elected officials you're appointed to your position but at the same time you are going to be doing county business next line the first area gifts there is a prohibition on soliciting or accepting gifts i know this is kind of dense language but depending on the circumstances it cannot be inferred or your it's not to be inferred that you can accept a gift whether it's financial service a loan travel entertainment a thing or promise a future gift if it can be reasonably infer that it's meant to influence you in the performance of your duties or it's meant as a reward for what you're doing so soliciting receiving a gift in all those different forms is a prohibited action under the code of conduct could be a code of ethics acts like there is an exception for what's called gifts of aloha the board of ethics has ruled that if you meet these conditions that you can accept a smaller nominal gift if the gift is given freely in a traditional spirit of aloha if there's no solicitation on your part for the gift it's of a nominal value and there's no other circumstances suggesting an apparent intent to reward or to influence your conduct there is another type of gifts which is hospitality you can accept modern hospitality if it's not offered to you personally but if it's offered to a general group as part of say an event and this picture i think is a good description of it if you go to a conference and at the conference there's a table that offers coffee and pastries to everybody at the conference and not if there's a separate breakout session just for you know members of the council on  this county governance then that's a gift of hospitality that you can receive if it's so i think it's targeted specifically for you folks and no then that's not a gift that you're able to receive the second area is the disclosure use of confidential information again you're prohibited from using or disclosing confidential information that you acquired during the course of your official duties prohibits the use of that information not only for your personal gain but also for the benefit of others i've seen is sometimes for example as with employees of the partners who may learn for example that there's a certain contract going to be coming up that's not yet advertised they're prohibited from releasing that information to friends or family before that information is made public this is also meant to prohibit the use of using your position to gain and and i'm warranted advantage for yourself or for others the also restriction number three is on your outside business activities and financial interests you're not to engage in a business transaction or activity or have a financial interest which is incompatible with a proper discharge of your official duties or it's made ten to impair your independence of judgment and the performance of your official duties so knows you're not to take undertake financial jobs or other kinds of positions that might impair your judgment in the performance of this job can you go back first relating to this with outside business activities they're often reviewed together by the board of ethics since in reality you know your business activities and your financial interests need to be evaluated together for example in one of the departments there was a building inspector who had an outside contracting business he came to the board of ethics and asked for an advisory opinion on whether he can pursue is outside contracting business while of the same time being a building inspector for the county because there is a possibility that he might be sent out to an area where he was doing renovations or that one of his good friends who also one of his peers could be influenced by him to go out and review his work more favorably the board of ethics said no that's not a not compatible with your official duties so they told him he's not to undergo and have this outside business that conflicted with his work as a county inspector next item if there's a financial interest in a matter that comes up before you if for example you have ownership of stock or a building in which you might be affected by a decision of this body and you would have to disclose that matter before you took any action on that on that issue representing others back to the county no officer or employee of the county show represent or appear on behalf of private interests against the interests of the county or appear before any county agency however so long is that if it applies to their personal rights then they can represent themselves personally back to the county to try to resolve a problem an example came up and this in which a county employee was having an issue with a water meter upcountry and as you can imagine that was an issue they wanted to resolve so what they did is they came to the board of ethics to ask if they could represent their personal interests to the department of water suppl try to resolve that issue and in that situation the board said yes because it was a personal right  this one should be also clear you're not to use county property or people for personal business there is a county computer usage policy and i'm sure you folks can obtain from staff if you want to get that you're not to do personal business on county property or time and you're not county person now to do your personal business on county time there is a certain to minimus anodes if you want to call someone like you know i got  call my spouse to had can you pick up the kids because they got to work a little later that's not a problem because it's what would be considered it to minimize use of county property power that issue is still subject open somewhat open to interpretation the board of ethics hasn't been definitive about that financial disclosure statements i understand that you folks will not be filing financial disclosure statements so this will not apply to you but in general financial disclosure statements are required of elected county officers candidates for county office appointed officers such as the heads of departments and certain heads like the county clerk and the deputy clerk also there are members of certain boards and commissions that are required to file financial disclosure ports but those disclosure ports are kept confidential they're not open to the public numbers seven out of eight prohibitions contracts with the county and general award of a contract in excess of five hundred dollars it cannot be made to an officer or employee of the county unless it's been made after competitive bidding so if someone who is a county employee or officer has a company that's competing for county business they can receive that award of the contract but only if it's done after competitive bidding there's some situations where their sole source contracts in which you have to follow another procurement process so sole source contract is awarded through the same procurement process and that is something that can be accepted by a county employee the last one is restrictions after your service with the county there's a one year restriction on limitation on what you can do back to the county but in general you cannot receive compensation for work done on behalf of a private interest after you leave county employment in relation to any case proceeding or application in which you were directly concerned or which was under your active consideration that's a flat out prohibition however after year than that doesn't include my husband because christmas would be off right for the kids who are related to your official duties but yes you're right ok good and mr chair may i remind you that this and this with fission and in this position i am not sure the question has been asked or office i know for the board of ethics purpose you are not considered an officer of the county ok thank you so the first question is a board can require members of the public attending or testifying to sign in or identify themselves that's actually us the sunshine law requires that you shall accept testimony from people either verbal or written can email each other about board business so long as less than a quorum is copied on each email that is false i don't encourage email at all period between board members third question a board member wants to talk about an issue on the boards agenda to several members of the public including a lobbyist yes that's true you're permitted to do so member for a board must mail its notice an agenda at least six days ahead of every meeting to any individual member of the public who is asked to be notified by mail that's true there's still a snail mail requirement in the sunshine law and the fifth question a board wants to hold an all day workshop with presentations break out discussions on an issue that is pending before the board can a board do this in compliance with the sunshine law it can if it notices the workshop answer a as a meeting follows the requirements for a notice agenda public attendance and testimony and any questions about ok let's go with the slideshow so the sunshine law i generally start by saying is counter intuitive it's a set of rules and regulations that you just need to know in order to follow meetings requirements that are that meet certain legal criteria so the sunshine law is something that's chapter ninety two the way you revised statutes and it's hawaii's open meetings law it imposes requirements and restrictions on how you conduct your business the purpose of sunshine law is to open up the government process to public scrutiny provides for public participation your board is to be conduct its business openly preference under the law is always for open meetings and unless there's a specific statutory exception board business cannot be discussed in private why does it matter it matters because what you do can be voided by a court and there's two general areas where if there's a problem your actions and your decisions can be avoided that's in what i call open meetings problems and the second area is if there's a notice problem and then there's if there's a problem with  examples of zero to open meeting problems or when you don't have people testify when you close a meeting and properly or it's not handled properly in closing meetings can be an executive session or what are sometimes called her interaction groups or to exist or if you talk about forth business outside of a sunshine law noticed meeting what is board business board business is matters over which you have supervision control or jurisdiction advisory power and that are before you presently or that are reasonably expected to come before you so if what your kid is going to play on soccer and who they're playing or who the green bay packers are going to be playing on sunday is not going to be before the board and that is not board business so you can talk with one another about the packers game without any limitation but when it comes to matters over which you have supervisory control advisory power then all the restrictions fall into play so this is what constitutes your board business i took this out of the resolution there is at least there's these three areas if the county manager is going to improve county government your recommendations are in charter amendments including the form of a of government if you do have any recommendations and a proposed charter amendment chair on the proposed charter amendment is singular is the option available for us to come up with more than one yes ok thank you questions equal candy we're not to discuss board business more than two members of a board cannot gather together to discuss board business and you can't have what's called a serial communication no other the words a talks to be be talks to see see talks to d to talk see there's a specific court case on that called right to know that prohibits that kind of conversation as being attempt to circumvent the sunshine law when i say discuss it also means by email not just face facts telephone or even social media texting because if you have a number of the other board members on your face k page and you post something on your facebook page that has been construed as a conversation in other jurisdictions it's not something that's come to a court here at this point but in some other places that could be considered a discussion there is something called a temporary interaction group and i have a handout that follows this one that talks about how to set up and establish a temporary interaction group in which two or more but less than a quorum so now there's less than six so between two to five people can investigate a certain topic so that's a benefit because you can meet outside of these notice sunshine law meetings and investigate certain things but it comes with different restrictions ever clarus three meetings of this body the first would be to establish the temporary interaction group the second is when the group comes back to report its findings and recommendations and at that second meeting you can only receive the report you can though you can't discuss and then at the third notice me is when this board can deliberate discuss and make a decision on the takes recommendations yes yes ma'am so at the second meeting with the report be available to the membership yes ok and then it will be discussed at the third meeting correct ok making this part about when the to discuss board business it starts from today forward rate yes that's right so anything previous to that today does it count i think you're being noticed you're being informed today about what the sunshine law is and how it applies if you have any concerns we can talk about that afterwards but yes it applies for now to go further on the temporary interaction group you can have to put less than a core arm and when you meet you can talk amongst themselves about the selection of officers it is meant for a short term interaction it's not meant to be a long term committee and it's not meant to be a standing committee standing committees following your different kinds of  there are certain other specific exceptions in a sunshine law that have come about just in the last three years or so that allow a little more efficiency in terms of board meetings for example if there are five of you that come to a meeting but there's a number of people who have come to testify you can receive the presentations of everyone who's come here to testify without actually having a meeting call so you'd have to cancel that meeting because there's no core you have to have six members in order to have a quorum but because people have made the effort to come here the sunshine law allows them to present their testimony but then there's other things that have to be done afterwards at the next meeting you have that's when you can deliberate about the testimony you create a record about the as of the council meeting what was done at the council meeting is and summarized for the people who show up at the next meeting and the members who were present at the council meeting have to present a report at the second meeting or the subsequent meeting about what happened so if you do go ahead and proceed at a cancelled meeting there are other requirements that ha the story is if we have public you public testimony but beyond that if we can actually discuss and deliberate at a council meeting you know you cannot you know you're only talking about the testimony that's right you just received from my counsel meeting and from my understanding that is what happens ok thank you all if we're just receiving testimony and the other question or actions there is a conference exception where several of you less than a quorum so now that it's up to five want to attend an information meeting or presentation on something relating to board business including the meeting of another board or the county council you can attend but like with other exceptions there are concurrent or following requirements when you're at this meeting you cannot participate in the discussions you cannot make a commitment to vote at the other meeting and you must report back at the subsequent meeting so let's say for example if a number of you wanted to go to a casa government commission meeting that happens on the same day you want to show up and see what they're talking about it if you do that and there's a presentation or briefing you certainly can attend so low thing is that briefing is not targeted just for you it's has to be made to the general public so if you attend that's fine has to be less than a quorum then you have to come back and you report at the next meeting what happened at the meeting that you attended yes yes now if one person attends that meaning they got to come and tell everyone or know if one person attends they don't have to come back an airport it is just when you have more than two and less than a cor yes this is organizer so to speak into the microphone so that the recording can pick up so just to make clear because right now we're into the rate we're looking at that that sort of a group be together ok i didn't because we were thinking about that because we were talking about that and then we said if you want to go do this and we're all concerned about sunshine and not be more than two and how can you go and no candle and we who would show up and just the fight to everybody and then we come back on the third me of the tick and then you discuss with a committee of the whole that's it you got it ok all right no i'm just recognizing that you know these little t v fees are possibly going to be the way we're going to be able to push it out faster it can't possibly be in it sometimes it requires more meetings on the part of the full board but there is a way you can send people out to look into an issue and they come back and bring information right and you don't have to be on television and he went for that purpose what is the parent board is all of this is yes is this or special committee so i don't understand it requiring three meetings of a parent board because i was going to meet more than three times i'm sure you will in fact there might be meetings in between different but at a minimum requires three means the first to set up the tea the second is you know and then you could have a bunch of other meetings but then at another meeting is when the tea comes back and gives its report and then you have some more meetings and then you discuss ok next why so median age and it's that's the second what i call a problem area that can lead to your decisions being voided if the notice or the agenda is faulty then the media must be cancelled if for example the notices you're going to meet on wednesday december tenth and that's a problem with the meeting notice because some people might show up on wednesday but they can't come on thursday so the meeting notice has to be accurate and complete and there are certain minimum that ha to be met there's no i'm sorry yes what's the timeframe for the meeting notice being filed and what is the mechanics in the county for filing the meeting zealand they might also do it by electronically yeah ok you can add items to the agenda unless there's a two thirds vote so that's more than a basic warm of all the members to which is the board isn't title and it can't be of now this is a real mouthful of reasonably major importance and effect a significant number of people so in your instance because your actions will likely affect a significant number of people it would be difficult to add something to the agenda that's going to be on substantive board business yes for the question on filing of the meeting notice and watched time because the state just changed the time from end of business to  profiling of meetings and i made a few meetings cancelled because filings were deemed effective i i don't think the county follows that requirement so as long as it's during business so it's  last minute council members change their minds at the very last minute and we have to rush to the post office by four thirty pm to get the mailed portion out and posting happens earlier during the others they have to be described well enough and there's a change that was in the two thousand and fourteen legislature was that rules can be generally described they don't have to be described specifically everyone the standard for sufficiency is that there's certain minimum so in the statute that the minimum says that you have a date time in place and you might notice they don't require the day so i usually recommend that you leave the day of the week off and on the agenda has to list all of the items to be considered if you know there's going to be an executive session on the agenda you need to state the purpose for which it will be and like mr starr just mentioned it has to be filed sixty days before there were some changes in two thousand and fifteen just this past in which they added a new definition to the significant privacy interest it means information where release might be of substantial and the risk of physical harm then that information doesn't have to be released that's really what i call the judge's exception because judges are concerned about their home addresses getting out because people would want to come after them so this is an exception that was written into the law to help protect them and then there's an office of information practices arroyo and they're going to be moving from the elegies office lieutenant governor's office to put the parliament of accounting in general services so senior advisor for the international city county manager association mr moore is a past i c m a president and west coast regional director as was retired city manager of salinas california is thirty five years experience in california local government and you can review his resume as well as his presentation to the molly county dot us backslash governance and in fact you can pretty much all of our meetings yes for thirty five years and i work in a variety of jurisdictions with direct we elected mayors we had mayors elected from the council i worked in a government jurisdiction where i had full authority for appointee department directors i worked in a government jurisdiction where the administrator appointed department directors subject to confirmation by the council i worked in jurisdictions where we had other elected department heads and i stress that from the beginning because what i'm going to give you in the way of an overview is perhaps a menu of things you might want to consider there are no perfect solutions to every problem there are unique solutions that can be developed to meet local needs and i think that is perhaps the journey that you're on there is a conference framework though in terms of what you're about and what your county is about you are dedicated to serve the residents of maui county that's what local government is about and i stress that and i'm not teaching anything and i'm really not preaching and i think that's going to mental to everything i'm going to talk about and why you're doing what you're doing because you're interested in your community and it's frankly why all of your elected officials currently your mayor your council members everyone who is elected has an interest in the community otherwise they would do so this is not a presentation to say something is not the right weight is not a presentation to throw stones it is a presentation to get you thinking about what all you might want to consider so  one more point and that is critical when i speak of working with residents and local community what local government is all about is the delivery of services to those residents that's the bottom line every community is charged with providing services to his residents as efficiently as effectively as possible regardless of form of government but the bottom line is you're residents are looking for services to be provided and in maui county you know what the services are in terms of what your government provides ok so let's take another slice and see where we go from here we can pass this one up because we already have a little bit about me and my past experience and i did work in three jurisdictions as manager i ended my career in salinas california after eighteen years and i can comment a little bit about that later on in terms of how does a manager actually manage for eighteen years in one community because i know one of the issues that is a common concern when people talk about a manager in terms of a city or county manager it's well will this individual stick around and what are the parameters associated with that i  a's a professional association it's one hundred years old the focus of i c in may is on local government professional management and i stress it it is not about mayor council form of government it is not about council manager form of government it is about local government professional management every jurisdiction needs local government professional managers you want to hire the best and the brightest you may have them on board already i'm not making a judgment there but what i advocate what the associate association advocates is strong professional local government management the association is biased because we do think there is a form that seems to work well in many jurisdictions and i'll talk a little bit about that but it is not something that appears universally in the next one please pass that one ok one of the fundamental elements i do want to touch on is that embedded within i c m a is is a code of ethics in every member of i c may has to ascribe to that and why it's critical is that it deliberately is structured in such a way to remove the membership of i c i'm a one hundred percent out of the political environment national state local so i see members professional managers who do not contribute to elections in terms of elected office and that's a fundamental item in the code of ethics and if you do you're thrown out of i c may so that's just kind of an obvious thing but there is a threshold argument to your the maori special committee on tony governance your current form is a council member form a government which best legislative power in the council and executive power in the mayor as i understand your resolution the committee is to consider the merits of a county manager form of government i will state in phatic really there is no such thing as a county manager form of government it doesn't exist i suggest what you're looking at as one alternative is a council manager form of government it is not semantical it is critical the elected officials in the jurisdiction are in charge period end of discussion if i use the term or if you use the term county manager form of government people will think that the county manager is in charge that is absolutely not the case the manager works for elected officials actually please ok somewhat unique to counties in hawaii counties in a why offer a lot of services that are offered by municipalities on the mainland the distinctions between counties  cities on the mainland or are significant you've got a variety of services that mirror mainland chinese services and mainland city services and i bring that up because as part of your review you may want to look at not only county manager jurisdictions on the mainland if you look at mt you may want to look at cities with mayor council council manager forms of government because the  services you provide include things that are traditionally done on the mainland with cities and let me state since i use the term mainland the mainland does not have all the answers ok just happen to live in california next light please we have some statistics which even with my eyesight i can read if i get closer this is for us counties with populations of one hundred thousand or more and there are three different types of governance models council elected executive that's in twenty six percent of the jurisdictions and that's what i believe all the counties in hawaii have there is another of government which is county commission so you have an elected commission that is in charge and then finally a council manager or administrator for government of the us counties with populations of one hundred thousand or more forty five percent are council manager twenty nine percent county commission twenty six percent the council elected executive same thing only in writing so even i could read it next there are a couple of slides here where we've listed counties and cities and if this works when you're at home or wherever it is ok in terms of research and you don't violate any laws we have provided a link to each of those communities so hopefully if the link works it will take you into those various counties next slide into those various cities and we've identified the population size so this is not the extent of research you may want to do but this will give you an idea and each of those links should give you then a snapshot of their charter their form of government and some background on them it's not something i'm saying you have to use but one of the things i think you'll want to do is explore what other communities have in place and this gives you a start in terms and suggestions we did tried to make them something other than the west coast so to identify where have there been somewhat recently changes in the former government frankly doesn't happen very often at least in jurisdictions of substantial size like the county so there are four  examples and one is a true change in two thousand and ten loser in county pennsylvania adopted seeing county i'm sorry city manager c e o form council manager form of government there's another jurisdiction not listed here that may be of some value but i think was a little bit earlier city of el paso texas substantial city went to a council manager form of government i think about eight or nine years ago and again that's a larger was asked to provide some quick statistics in terms of salaries because you know compensation is always an issue the average base salary in all u s cities for ceo's is one hundred twenty five thousand for counties it's a little bit more the average by salary for c e o s in the maori population range and for cities of size in terms of my population are also listed so it just you just nap shot of of what's out there right now i'm sorry chief administrative officer  somewhat of an interchangeable term manager and c e o where you'll see a distinction is best description if it's titled manager there's a little bit more authority in that position if it's a title c e o a little bit less authority best example i can give you when i worked in santa barbara i was not the manager but i was the deputy city manager the city administrator chief administrative officer higher department heads subject to the approval of the city council when i was a city manager myself manager i had the authority to hire departments side note i don't think there is a city manager or county manager in the business who doesn't consult with elected officials in the appointment of senior staff i made it a practice to do so only because the elected officials represent the community and i always wanted to make sure that the police chief i hired the planning director i hired the library director i hired i wanted to make sure that that individual and the council could talk to each other and they could develop some working relationship that that basically is a method that you know i used as an example that's one to quickly go through some benefits and best practices and this is basically a key element that i want to stress today the distinction that i would suggest you focus on is that there are two substantial roles in local government one is the policy development policy approval focus the other is the specific delivery of services on a daily basis those are two roles in my opinion elected officials already have a full time job representing their communities and i mean that almost regardless of size i worked in jurisdictions of thirty thousand i worked in jurisdictions of one hundred sixty thousand those council members were always interacting with a computer and it may have been the grocery store it may be a church it may have informal council meetings but it was practically a full time job and at least in the jersey actions i worked for by the way they were compensated but there is a full time aspect of the policy making role if you're going to focus on that and i believe that the elected officials who devote their time full time to engaging the community and dealy with policy review policy development and policy adoption general plan budget land use plans strategic plan for the community that sets the vision for the community i submit that it is easier to hire someone to then implement especially when you deal with the specific responsibilities of the day to day implementation so those are basically the two distinctions but i will point out as i do on the bottom bullet there there is splits ability there is no cut and paste there is flexibility in forms of government that can focus on professional management and also profile focus on have the elected officials deal with policy and then have the staff on a routine consistent basis implement that policy the ideal situation is that there can be a change in the elected leadership ideal situation best practice there can be a change in the elected leadership and a continuity of service delivery but there shouldn't invest practices have to be a change to go to the next one you may be familiar with a national civically they have a model city charter they also focus on the distinction between policy and execution of policy next best practices is there some repetition in this conversation yes but it is really fundamental i think to how communities are best served the distinctions that i've been trying to point out power in policymaking is concentrated in the entire elected body and the elected officials are free to devote time to policy visioning and development the manager administrator carries out policies as stablished by the elected officials actually want to talk a little bit about roles the chief elected officer traditionally known as mayor then the mayor and council before the elected body and then the manager c and any council manager form of government the mayor has an incredibly important role especially as communities are larger in size and what they represent the best example i can give you there is that in many smaller communities in california where i worked on a los gatos where i work it was a general law city the five council members were elected at large and they elected the mayor from that body they rotated community of thirty thousand you know significant to some extent there in important community i'm not down downplay the community but do you need to directly elected mayor with such a small population i elected official that chief elected official serves as the recognized head of the jurisdiction not only in ceremonial purposes that person is a spokesperson the face of the community ideally in best practices that mayor is a player with the other elected officials they work together so that collectively all of the elected officials in the jurisdiction chart the vision and approve the vision as practice which is what i'm focusing on here not only practice primary role for any mayor is to represent the city or the county to relations most mayors have authority to appoint advisory boards and commissions sometimes with or without the consent of the council and present in annual state of the city or county message the role of the full elected body next slide the full body establishes policy direction for the community all of them are engaged in the policy discussion they're all engaged in the development adoption of a strategic plan of the general plan of your capital improvement plan they don't do that in isolation and no one does that in isolation you work with staff and staff gives you recommendations the community very importantly is in gauging the process so as elected officials develop community develop policies they do not do so in isolation they're doing it with the community and with support from staff the mayor and council adopt the various policy documents the mayor and council hire the manager administrator and very importantly hold that individual accountable for policy implementation there and then the role of the manager then he or she is responsible for budget preparation presentation of the governing body responsible for the direct administration of the budget that is approved by the governing body has full appointment authority for department heads the most critical department heads attends all the council meetings and can be a player but the distinction again is policy and it ministration and there are some strict lines the easiest example if you will is the manager does or she shouldn't have a vote that is not part of any rules which would again best practices the manager administrator is appointed based on professional experience managerial qualifications and education if you look at job description for most county or city manager types you will see specific requirements in terms of education numbers of years of experience  and what specific counsel may be looking for when they are hiring is there an example of active community participation for instance is the individual continuing his or her professional development does he or she ascribe to a code of ethics those types of items political affiliations do not influence appointments and a critical part of this and i alluded to before if the management staff is responsible for continuing delivery of services that could the delivery of services the not change with changes in the elected leadership it doesn't the streets are still paved the police are still out there the fire department is still out there water is still sure god or not the policy directions can change when there are new elected officials there may be a reemphasis with a new council a new mayor and let's redo the general plan let's really do a new strategic plan to see where we want to take the community the manager's role implement the policy of the elected officials if a manager has a problem with the policy of the elected officials that is not the elected officials problem that is the manager's problem during my career i had more than a couple of changes in city councils sometimes they were not dramatic but changes in terms of policy directions and one of my jobs was to work with the council and the mayor and work them through that change because no one can be elected overnight and change things no system works that way there are rules or procedures that govern any changes and the best resource that is available to help it facilitating those changes are the folks that are on board the staff that know how things are done there may be differences of opinion but i'm submitting to you best practice is there is continuity in service delivery there may be changes in policy policy does not change overnight and the job of the manager implement the policy of the council next one place had a little bit about this already ninety four percent of us counties and seventy two percent of us cities report the presiding officer is a member of the commissioner council eighty seven percent of counties and eighty six percent of cities with chief administrative officer report that commission council or commission council presiding officer point that position only one percent of counties and four percent of cities report to the presiding officer alone appoints the c e o best practice that doesn't mean that the one percent is wrong ok best practice is of the vast majority do it the other way and only four percent of counties and twenty percent seven percent of cities report that the presiding officer has a veto authority again it doesn't say the four percent are wrong or the twenty seven percent best practices is just that you can do things different ways like rivers wanted to point out a little bit in terms of flexibility talk a little bit about the examples already you know that the best practice situation is that the manager is appointed by the elected body well there is an alternative the manager may be appointed by the elected mayor subject to the approval of the elected body so that's a variation the manager and best practice is solely responsible for the hiring and firing of non elected department heads an alternative the appointment is made subject to the approval of the elected officials if i had a question on going through a recruitment process and i don't know if you really want to get into that now  so the slides are going to be available but generally on a recruitment process the policy body sits down many times with community engagement to talk about ok what is it they want to see in the chief administrative officer or the city manager engaging the community is something that we're seeing more and more you know there was a time when i began my career and it was more than a few decades ago when the council sat in a room and said ok here's what we're going to do  there was a recruitment but there was no community engagement now the norm is community engagement in hiring somebody you can basically take that on yourself you can hire a headhunting firm number of ways to do it and then finally you do have to make as an elected body the appointment process before you do that you have to deal with compensation and what elements of any employment agreement you may want to have with the individual if that's part of the package but with the value proposition which my association and based on my experience in my work in the government frankly i'm an advocate for that doesn't mean there's other ways to do it but i am an advocate for  the council manager administrator form in cup as a set of professional values skills and practices that can ensure success of cities and counties that use it it's not an overnight solution and ok next light elected officials collectively you know when more back elected officials collectively focus on public policy and community priorities and elected officials appoint a professional manager  the next one there are some studies out and i think you can look at the studies but any study can be critiqued for very valid reasons it depends on the sample that's being looked at it depends on the time and place folks do the analysis but what we do know is that there is this thing called the all american study award i've been told that at least between two thousand and eight and two thousand and twelve seventy three percent of the communities receiving that award had local government professional managers council manager form of government well guess what there were twenty seven percent who did so but the assumption is there is a distinction there and i would advocate that y there's you know when when three quarters get it there is maybe a message where there is a february two thousand and eleven study by a b m global business is looking at very large cities that found that there is nearly a ten percent more efficient use of resources in those cities and comparing them to mayor council jurisdictions i will offer one of advice you should not be looking at any guarantees in terms of overnight efficiencies or economies in any change it is not possible i think if you have a core of local government professional managers trained in experience throughout the organization and there is a continuity of that service you will see results the policy aspects are critical to any community but are more but just as critical in my opinion is continuity of delivery of services to your residents that's the primary role that i played in terms of being a local government manager let's get the work done for  in retirement i have thoroughly enjoyed this trip unfortunately it's only been a three day trip to presentations but i really do have a passion for local government professional management and i do think that elected officials in every jurisdiction that i work with had that same passion just as yours do here i think what you're potentially looking at is ok how are things working now what are some elements that may not be working that might have to change is a change to a different structure part of that it could be but your focus i think is going to be on the provision of quality services to residents and i will tell you i am convinced that a council manager form of government with the specific distinction between the policy role i can be successful over time it is not immediate is it perfect now because there are literally thousands of council managers jurisdiction's throughout the united states we have bankruptcy you know detroit a strong year it went through bankruptcy city of san bernardino with other unfortunate things right now went through bankruptcy there getting through it so does any form of government guarantee success no there is a higher success rate though when you've got the distinction between the policy and humanitarian and i will continue to stress and apologize for the repetition continuity of service delivery through the background the professional experience of season managers is key to that no city on the mainland no county on the mainland can provide the level of service it should be providing if the manager leaves every two or four years you can't do it you you're going to fail they'll still be a provision of services but you won't have the continuity and the professionalism so i spread this of a bit i apologize if i went too fast if there are any questions i'll take them and the chairman said i have at least a four o'clock i operate services more like a city shed that title b city should they should the manager be focused on the city you're going to find city managers more involved traditional city managers more involved in the variety of services that the counties you know i use or you provide but there are some counties that on the mainland do the same thing i think you should use it interchangeably and that's why i offer some jurisdictions both counties and cities that you might want to look at you don't have to limit yourself to counties you don't have to sell to cities that would be my suggestion what i would suggest is this committee is not looking at a county manager form of government you are looking at a council manager form of government or mayor of council form of government please put those elected officials first because that's the wrong message to send in the community if you're saying county manager yes i sound like a preacher but i think that you can you can go  now membership in i c m a is for an individual part of that is when an individual becomes a member lyceum a here she signs that code of ethics and person could join the service and could join now it's got to have a manager it's got to be someone working on a regular basis in local government professional management it can be a department head ok we have a growing number mid management professionals we have a group of about six hundred in southern california they work in cities counties and special districts and about five hundred in northern california local government management is their career they don't  or city managers but they want local government managers working in various departments so we work with anyone who byers to be a manager in a local government environment don't call don't use county management if you sit you city so what is a difference for what is the what's a difference besides a worked the distinction i was trying to get but i apologize because i've been using city and county changing your resolution said that you're going to look at a county manager form of government what i am saying is there is no such thing as a county manager form of government there is no such thing as a city manager form of government the forms of government have the elected officials in the primary position so you currently have a strong mayor form of government and you have a managing director the alternative that you may want to look at is a mayor and council hyphen manager or c e o form of government couple for those of us that aren't from the mainland mainland cities in maine nine counties i don't understand what that means and then the other one was when you talk about a point mean or when you talk about hiring i don't understand the difference of that either i'm just trying to basically say first question cities in counties that are not in the state of hawaii so i'm just saying the mainland cities in the mainland counties and i have examples of that and maybe it's the wrong description but i'm just trying to make a distinction that unfortunately the only examples i can give you but none of the examples i can give you are in hawaii they're all on the mainland because you have similar structures among all your counties here so that was the first attempt appointment and hiring interchangeable words in the best practice is the entire elected body currently in the past has no type of evaluation process or metrics either for county government as a whole or for its management or for the departmental management what are some of the systems that you might want to talk about for doing evaluation both overall and departments and also are metrics created and processed there is a lot of work done with metrics in terms of service delivery by the private sector i c m a has a tool it's in partnership with a private sector company i can name it for you those types of evaluation mechanisms can be used in any jurisdiction ok there are not evaluation mechanisms set up for council manager forms of government their evaluation mechanisms set up for local government services and i can get the specific reference to you in terms of what i see i'm a uses but there are a number of models out there  would stress though that there is universal application you know you any form of government can use those evaluation models the key is what you use them what are you going to do with the results i didn't get into might all but the appointment process is there's got to be a collective decision among the elected officials as to what they're looking for in that individual and what is the background what is the professional experience how many years of experience it may be a matter of what size of jurisdiction would they prefer that person come from so all of those qualities are items would have to be enumerated in developing those that could be done with the local government human resource department or there are consulting firms that could be brought in that work with that and then handle the recruitment one of the decisions the group would have to make is ok what is the source of applicants going to be do you want to limit your source of applicants to the state of  you get the applications come in and there'd be an evaluation of those applications and you know hopefully you get folks that nature minimum requirements someone does background on those individuals who is this yahoo and hopefully they say he really is it could be a matter of verifying what i've claimed to have as an education so if somebody does the background that's not something the council would get involved with somebody does that after that screening then a full council or a subcommittee of the council could work on trying to narrow the group of applicants down to five to seven for interview the full council would be involved in those interviews and hopefully from that they would make a selection that's a very quick rundown just four or five slides in there that deal with that recruitment and appointment process yes the as his group was to desire to look for a job description as scope of activities this type of person where would we go about i would suggest the best place to look there are a number of head hunting firms that are currently recruiting for county and city badgers there are on web sites if somebody will remind me i'll get you list i give you is not promoting any of them it's just a matter of here's a list of folks that do the business next question be from k followed by pool ok thank you so much for the the overview and i think obviously we all have tons of questions and are getting into much more specifics than that maybe the first meeting we wanted to is there as we work and come up with additional questions is there going to be a mechanism where we can get back to you are to find the answers to those questions maybe a question for both of you good question are you available if we have written questions you respond to them to the extent possible i in my associates would the primary contact is kevin but i think the best way to handle it i would suggest if if you have questions can we identify one because you know i'm a local government junkie i really thing you know i started i think what you all are doing is really critical to your residence and what your policymakers do one regular basis is critical to your residents who are there thank you first of all thank you for your presentation i appreciate it i think my questions are premature still you know we' three hours into this meeting and i'm sure we all have very important questions for you but what may work for you may not work for us so i look forward to meeting others in your capacity as well so thank you for being here thank you i guess i'm more familiar and so out more familiar with the private sector we talk about best practices and you mention that a lot where would you say the biggest distinct through distinct distinction with the private sector and public sector where they go for the farthest apart of the difference between public and private in terms of best practices i mean when i look at it there's you're implementing policy and you do both sides is there anywhere we see there be a difference in my mind yeah there is a significant difference because in the private sector the critical decisions are made in private service in the public sector council the mayor and council the elected body has to make its decisions in public they have to deal directly with community engagement and community demands a d it comes down to in my personal belief the public sector cannot be as efficient as the private sector because the services that provided by the public sector are services that the private sector would never provide because there's a cost associated to it so that's a distinction i made  responsive directly to your question the i think that's more of a policy level ok from the administered level the best practices that they're using and in the competition what they're doing is it you talked about metrics and i think you could find some metrics in terms of private sector but in terms of ministration i mean you're looking at best practices is a real one in getting the policies implemented do you see much distinction between the two manager is it he or she is responsible to final decision makers his or her board of directors yes the mayor and city council are the same makers they're not the final decision makers because they're accountable to the electorate and i think that is very different to the private sector you could make the argument that question i do have a question i'm sorry since you're here and you kept repeating and made the point that we need seasoned managers that would be the recommendation and i'm not sure what all the dates were but i know the first one that you show that they too as recent were in two thousand so that's not a lot of that's not a long establishment my question is what is your average longest season manager that we have and how long has this program been in place that has been effective i believe that i see may is stating that the average tenure of managers now is about seven years ok the field is up and down you could have long tenured managers i certainly community for eighteen years i served in another community five another one before that for father it really is a matter of the interaction of the elected body with that manager that's why the selection process is so critical and to find a person who is committed to professional management and a significant element in that but i would stress is that the manager is responsible and accountable to the elected body see elected body to implement policy policies can change where you see turnover in city or county managers many times it happens because the elected officials come in and quite frankly don't understand the form of government if they come in with an agenda of changing policy they think automatically that in order to change policy you have to change management i submit to you that is not necessarily the case if you have folks dedicated to the implementation of the policy then they could continue so it so i can summarize what you said correctly so the average is seven years that's what the current average is and the success is isolated case to case basis they have to be looked at individually they distill the material they will be looking at is still fairly new and it's all relative depending on the basis itself make if there's high turnover that means something's not working for the process to get this working rate could be a very long and costly one year there is there can be significant terminal there doesn't have to be ok and you can you're going to find examples where there isn't turnover and where there is journal generally politically stable environments meaning that there are not divisible elections there's a stable political environment within a community generally there's a continuity of managers that cities and counties have reputations in terms of keeping managers probably getting too much detail but i think i said in salinas i was there for eighteen years i had a predecessor was there for sixteen years another one that was there fifteen years salinas has a good reputation is there a correlation between economic success and success of this program you know now and i'll say it i say that very quickly because every city every county had to go to the recession i know moving forward i certainly have lots and lots more deeper questions that are not going to get asked around search today i know there's not too many organizations that can really help us gain cannot become a member as that as county government or even as nonprofessional in management but is there a mechanism that this entity can create a relationship with i c m a n be able to use i c m a resources over the next few months a year maybe that's something you might want to take back and talk with the western region  structure and off the top of my head i'm trying to figure out i don't believe it's individual membership let me see frankly maybe there's somebody on the county staff who wants to become a member of i c m a he or she could look at the membership requirements the significant thing being ok you're signing up and you've got this code of ethics so you can be ok i'm not saying a people can't do that i'm just saying that individual on top there would be elected officials so they would have the onus or their loyalty is to their constituency base yes so now these people are then going to pick this one person who we are great to see or who a community minded person but his loyalty is going to be to the nine of them yes we're looking at contract off that probably would end up with a contract and your county is liable for the legitimate actions of any county employee i believe you also brush this would be a county employee this would be a county employee yes he or she would be working for the county he would be working for the county of ma we as a contractor i'm sorry he's not to ease up public sector worker and he works in the public sector by reference that again i apologize if i misspoke what we are seeing is that there were in employment agreements between the individual the individual and the jurisdiction i had an employment agreement in salinas i was a city employee ok is there you could you find somebody that would be an individual contractor  lso your balloons if you get or whatever and your bonuses and or benchmarks compensation could be part of it ongoing to valuations should be part of  benchmarks should be part of it so those elements could be in there and we're seeing more of that if you will employment agreements thank you see because we know you seeing stuff whereas i haven't seen any of th understood and some of those websites may have current employment agreements of their city or county managers can't guarantee that but sometimes that information is also put on the web  jurisdictions had to go through some voting process so that there is a vote when there are change of government elections that can be put a petition and initiative process it can be something the governor do body does generally those parameters are subject to your local charter or state law is what it comes down to so you've got the rules may request a copy of his light but it's all it's all online or online including my resume and insistent the personal information regarding my family life be removed and nothing to hide b mission and i mean it you're dealing with the lives of people in your community and best practices are best practices there is no perfect form there are alternatives you'll see that i don't have one right answer for you no one does thank you thank you very much june first two thousand and sixteen and you know the numbers don't lie six one one six that's it so it's my understanding the council committees generally meet twice each month being in the beginning at either nine or one thirty on a given day is that correct that is correct so is are you suggesting that that's what we have to do no you have full ability to to decide whatever schedule you want however be it known that council generally meets on the first and third weeks of the month and the council chamber is not available   when would the council be meeting in january twenty council meeting week in january begins january fourth the council meeting itself is january eighth and then they meet again on the eighteenth week of the king the week of the so we'll try to set them all out today so you can make it so that's not an issue but the time might be an issue yes if you could meet a little earlier form for me it would be  earlier is that a problem for you all that i had been thinking about this myself chair and if you want to meet in the mornings rather than meeting at nine as the other com want to start it like well afternoon works better for her i probably can be more flexible what's the latest you can start honestly the only reason i said afterwards that a full time job and i'm a teacher and i have someone who's agreed to be at myself even on a half day basis so i'm just being very honest i do have a full time job so that's the only reason why it works better for me ok so if we scheduled right now every other thursday at like twelve thirty would be a better time for you correct cam when government makes hours to fly at ohana because i don't get the flexibility to make bond reservations who do we have to fly with what's the carrier we can speak with wendy about that she makes travel travel arrangements for you now as we get through our journey we will start looking into march and chair yes is it possible once we get rolling on i presume we're probably going to end up doing the tags once we get rolling on those is is it possible for us to have a special meeting just to drop those reports and for instance if there are three or four pigs working on reports and they were they report them all at the same time then can we hold a special meeting so that we can then discuss them in other words instead of the extended three meetings that we would have from that you could still do other business you just can't discuss that correct that's right and right but you would have it just to expedite that process rather than extending it out for three meetings or a month and a half you would drop  well and she said yes just for clarification all over future meetings that we've set up there all at one o'clock except the one on december twenty third at twelve thirty that's correct