not require a determination of dominion or control and said in a footnote that because it is not a conduit case the court's definition of a transfer in that your real use that terminology  a transferee and if you meet the terms of the definition if you have the right to put the money to your own purposes you have the right to invest in your radium stocks or lottery tickets then you are transferee and if you don't have those providers that provide telephone service internet service whatever to for example public schools and libraries it provides money to telephone companies that operate in what are called high cost car sparsely settled rural areas you know utah wyoming or that where the cost of providing basic health service to an individual customer is very high it provides you know it provides payment subsidies if you will the work to do the things we just talked about need to do to provide subsidy for high cost areas service to provide the subsidy for the lifeline rate for low income people to provide the funding to carriers and service providers and of service providers to question you know computers and internet service and public schools do they have to use the money for those designated purposes absolutely no the only purpose is that it may be used for the scheme of regulations  to people who qualify for the life line great you stack makes a contribution to pac bell that goes into pac bells accounts receivable just like the money that it gets from its subscribers so pac bell does have the right to use that money for variety of options to use that money they can use it like any other income they get by but it in compensation for services that they have already provided to somebody else what they choose to do with the money is up to they've already they were to spend it but it's dollar for dollar i have page thirteen of their opinion forty eight of the record as a practical matter the transfer cannot be recovered from the beneficiaries of the universal service program after it has been commingle with the other funds and use x bank account and distributed to the schools libraries all right ok so with that in mind you are now saying that they had a factual misconception of who actually receives the money that they have who receive the money and the second is that it is somehow not a two step process all right so before you do that in your answer i'd like you to focus on what are in the event the the the analysis was looking back in the other direction in terms of who was the function of the purpose of the pride conveyance fraudulent transfer rule in the event in the financial scheme of things to monitor and pick up on the idea on the possibility that the transfer or is engaging in a fraudulent transfer so they look back evaluate whether the conveyance is fraudulent citing bonded whereas here a transfer receives funds directly from a debtor the transferees capacity to monitor and accordingly has burden to monitor is at its greatest submit that what's going on here is that you sack is mixing apples and oranges the general rule for whether or not somebody is an initial transferee is whether or not they are the initial recipient of the funds from the debtor  schools libraries healthcare providers as native grasses frankly though your honor i don't think it really doesn't matter whether or not it's going to directly to the school that directly going to  it could i mean if you have i mean you've characterized as a general rule with an affirmative equitable defense of the conduct of the fittest but if you go back to look at the cases are still defining what transferee means and transferee means universe of large readily identifiable entities which are the carriers themselves who are the beneficiaries of the disbursements that are being collected by you sack on their behalf i mean it's a somewhat different picture than you know you see a bunch of little rural school schools where that would be somewhat nonsensical but your honor i think it makes a big difference here in terms  were trying to decide whether or not he was a subsequent transferee he never actually see the box but that was what they were trying to establish the point is what counsel is trying to do here is it's trying to use this to bring in tasks to say look in order to show that you're a transfer  context of somebody who has acted as an agent for the better agent for the third party and therefore acts as a conduit to pass the debtors funds through to this particular third party and the reason that's important is and you can identify the third party  think do we have any questions you don't need to use at all  paid the money during that quarter and then the trustee would have to go to those people could it could go to somebody who had been paid earlier in the year or later in the year well you can if you think if they had all the money during the third quarter it could go to somebody who received money during the fourth quarter there are there are a number of different programs here in their schools libraries there's real health care there's high cost low income they have different formulas and they have different payment cycles but the principle i'm talking about which is if you can identify the proportion of the total revenue