understood as an abstract idea what it looks like problems to understanding between you and the drywall judge as to exactly what is an abstract idea i don't think there was ever any articulation meant it kept talking about the invention was to create a rule of law what does that mean creating the rule was just kind of like the range equations here in the sense that at that time that information to create a different for multiple applications for example and across most well cations inventor currawong realized that there was no mechanism in place to monitor problems that you could access different data stores or you could access through different means for different walking names for different mechanisms of that nature and what better long realized that there was no means to detect across multiple abstract idea is the concept of analyzing records of human activity to detect suspicious behavior right i can see you're saying that you think that there is a misunderstanding there invalid as abstract ideas if they're all on the same subject matter i'm not phone rational but if you're improving a prior invention there are two other at least two other patents in the background right yes or no and this is an improvement on those i d s right it's an improvement yes or no so if your improvement is then valid because it's an abstract idea doesn't that by definition make those other it's not like we're looking person it's not like columbo or somebody that nature got a computer this is an information security specialist who understood electronic systems and electric computers and up environments nobody has looked at applications is not your claim so how do you respond to that when you're talking about how what is makes this different or makes this something that is a specific solution to a problem in the peter environment you keep by mentioning that it's across various out patient scenarios where the technical aspect is that makes it something that was difficult to do as a technical matter but where is that in the claim i  considerations in the understand what you're saying but when the claim isn't telling us more than it's a rule for monitoring audit mog data that's pretty broad with respect to whether we're looking at an abstract idea or going to defend that proposition yes or would you explain to the cork what you understand aid to be an idea and would be could be an abstract idea certainly going back to your earlier question i think that what the court understood in an abstract idea to be was something that could be done in mental steps in the human mind and that is what the district court looked at looked at these claims and we and was able to see that the claims talked about some general criteria that could be used for generating a rule which could be done by a human in the specification it talked about it could be done by a consultant or it could be the claims was focused on what was in the claims well let's begin with the first proposition which is under step one we have to conclude that this whole thing including all of the so that instead of being taken away from the web page you would retain that information the way it was that guided by software or the by the construction of the computer are kept in a physical form aren't that software that keeps a record isn't that what a log is yes it's a record of something that kept it on and a computer the fact that it uses a computer that provided for tracking a user across logs at an application layer of various applications that a user may access well it's a lot of words that may be that the problem with this invention the these claims are it doesn't meet the requirements of one twelve because one twelve does say that the specification shop includes on more claims particularly pointing out and distinctly claiming the subject matter which the inventor regards as it it may be that their words don't quite do the job but there you know i'm not a technically skilled i'm sure as you are but i understand what they're trying to do what they're trying to do is set up a system that will go into the logs that we call for people's medical care and in their system they're trying to say let's look at it in terms of time let's look at it in terms of number of entries et cetera et cetera and let's see if we can figure out whether there's an abuse that's a very practical set of ideas the idea that well i shouldn't say he said i'd that's a very practical thing they're trying to do they're trying to create a program a method and if you look for example which there is one claim in particular which seems to me to be troublesome from the from the judges who point a specially programmed computer i don't know the difference frankly between a general computer that's given instructions and a special program computer that's given instructions to have a special program i've never figured that out you understand it better than i do but either there's also a one to one issue here because when you look at the clintons the claims are talking generally about the concept of taking some criteria are generating a rule applying the rule and storing it in memory and this is just the general idea of looking at human activity whether it's human activity you got with us recorded electronically or human activity that was recorded on paper the idea here is what is in the claims is this idea of looking at this kind of data have you ever seen a patent that didn't have an idea and that oh i think that all there are a lot of very smart good ideas that first ideas and therefore would only supplemented with a computer in a standard way don't need to contest correct we have to i mean we're we have to look at what the supreme court did in the last and we have to understand what that means for taking an actual act idea i'm saying applied on  margarine and somebody came up with the idea for a new combination of chemical elements and said that she can work it out through the result of the composition containing the particular ratio that's composition of matter and i suppose it would depend on rather not that had you already been knowing in that is an improved way to teach swimming if you got a pool it has to be at least four feet deep so people are so if you have a student and you have a teacher and the teacher says to the student jump in the water and move your arms and legs and i write a series of claims explaining how that's to be done how you're supposed to have a poor folks that have students who understand the language etc etc if you say that's an abstract idea is an abstract idea it's a bad patent for a variety of reasons but it's hardly abstract you thanks well the claims are about there's nothing abstract about it right probably not ok good that's helpful to we know what when we see it  ok thank you earlier you said an abstract idea is something with a you would do in your mind you could do in your mind is that what about the fact that your adversary has pointed out that this isn't something that one could just do i the issue is that you have to look at the claims and what the claims are talking about and the this court's president has made pretty clear that even claims that require the use of a computer about the way that the district court looked at these different claims and started ok so we're flying rules to you know data about user activity and we're going to see if there's a hit and all these are things that could be done in the human he'd have to use the computer would have to use the tangible computer in order to be able to access those files to look at all that data right i mean there's no doubt that the claim is talking about doing this on a computer  right but even if some physical steps are required to get the information from the database like you know printing something from the database that kind of data gathering is has not enough i mean we know that from the cyber this is certainly not there's always a possibility that was wrong but that's besides the view they go to claim fourteen force and you look at claim fourteen for them and yes claim fourteen is a non transitory instructions embodied there on for performing a method of detecting improper access of a patient's protected health information and a health care system of computing environment and alice if alice at the supreme court that if there was a stipulation about this computer readable medium claims and the method claims of standing and falling together here we don't think that the method itself