opportunity to read that and i'd be very happy if i have that opportunity mr commissioner i'm going forward with both the government and conflicted former standby counsel puts me the power conflicts which do not expire i waive fifth sixth amendment issues pertaining to him and as such this forum is inappropriate for mr george viewers participation  alternative mr fisher if you choose to have a conflict free representative in his debt thank you all right mr buehler who could you describe for me your involvement that generally describes my my role and did you do you provide significant amount of advice to him during the course of the trial yeah yeah all right did you reaching its determination request mr boyd and in light of the fact that it appears that mr mueller has no meaningful input to this proceeding i'm going to excuse procedure you have the right to counsel on appeal if you cannot afford to retain counsel you are entitle to have counsel appointed to represent good government expense the court also has discretion to allow you to represent yourself if your request is knowing intelligent and unequivocal and is not intended to delay the proceedings of appeal in determining whether the court will allow you to represent yourself the court will inform whether i've already mentioned this way you do not have a right to counsel on appeal as you did anybody drown or you may withdraw your request to represent yourself and in that event you may retain coun say that knowing that you are not particularly interested in that outcome in any way but you can't represent yourself and simultaneously have counsel representing you understand all that yet i understand you so i understand that you in one thousand nine hundred eighty two graduated with a bachelor of science degree in physics from the university of california los angeles zach correct yes around and read physics and then went to four as a call to florida to be a trainee in aviation officer candidate school for for that program and did you graduate from that program i think my  scientists tile and i was in charge of a lot of stuff also top secret space based weapons systems and and i continued that work for a couple years until the the program went black completely black and at that point we were asked the world i university in northern california mostly at the time berkeley staff or other universities and had students who were undergraduate and graduate but now i didn't live it myself to  scientists now i help them and a course that was offered at university and also when i offer to students and they started graduating i would continue to work for residents the old law that heavy and i and others wonder did not and i said i have the senate report and i had a senate report and they didn't know about it nor did any other lawyer know about what i'm landmark changing event if they rule that the law did not apply to residents because i was living pertain years overall i went out of picked i was in reading cambodia now there is that the court of appeals would review a matter without giving any deference to the district court that is it would look at it afresh that would be one standard of review that would be distinguished from for example unrelated reasons but my question to you is is it your thinking that the issues in paris today are similar to the issues that you're raising about  extraterritorial jurisdiction then all those other other issues concerning the region united states criminalized activities that occurred overseas they think that the decision in fact they one way or the other is going of the same issues to a very large extent that you have in your case i think the answer this without a yes or no and a box and i think i have a twenty four twenty three charge just like government counsel to pay attention to my recitation now because i'm going to ask you to counsel at the end to see if there's anything else that you would add to my different from a trial the proceedings occur mili through written submissions the briefs and those briefs have to comply with specific court rules and if you represent yourself you will be expected to comply with those rules and your appeal that evidence is not in the record so the court came to consider and identifying appropriate issues requires legal knowledge and sophisticated analytic  journeymen and experience to know how many issues you should raise if you raise too many you undermine the strafer of your strong arguments and  it's especially true because you're limited to fourteen thousand words in your principle brig so you have to use those words carefully and thoughtfully with the with the strategy of extremely difficult to convey that understanding persuasively in writing to judges who have unlimited time to read and study the briefs moyer's who lawyers who are qualified to serve on our will have to accomplish the same thing with that that training and experience you understand that young man to stand there also additional difficulties you may encounter and representing yourself and appeal your access to legal materials may not be as extensive in free allows oral argument typically of ten to twenty minutes interation perseid in some cases that's an opportunity for the parties to ensure that the judges understand the arguments it's also an opportunity for the judge is to ask specific questions about the proper disposition of the appeal where a criminal defendant is represented by counsel the court often schedules oral argument especially in the case with this many issues event would you be allowed to follow supplemental brief all right let me ask the counsel whether there's anything else that you wish to add about informing mr boyer action of the dangers and disadvantages of s they can they can determine well of it if you if you do it on this issue which is your strong suit you're not going to win an issue eight which is a very you know a weaker issue and it's not really doesn't go to the heart of what we're talking about so that the that camp a little kind of be able to take it objective look at your case and and figure out well here's here's the three and i like to be able to read in response to their opposition i like it really and that it could continue at that point because i think this puts me at a severe disadvantage for the government to have made that a further pleading in response of the government and then after that i will issue a report recommendation denser frankly there's not a whole lot to respond to the government's the governor it states that it is no position on the question of self representation a big a few additional points that you can in five pages or less