who's a member of the bar and is in good standing with the highest court of california i have knowledge of his credentials and i'm satisfied that he possesses the necessary qualifications in fact i have six intimate knowledge of his credentials because he clerk when matthew first came to see me now almost many years ago it was a brilliant brilliant student then at stanford law school and he had been highly recommended to me and because he had gone through school so quickly i said you know maybe you should get some experience first so i suggested he either work for a few years or maybe get a district court clerk ship so he decided to do both before coming here seventeen one one six two google versus personal audio simple navigational command on direct appeal is the back to me and which was not new the reference on which we were lying goes back to nine hundred eighty three and described not only a back command but a back command that went back to the beginning of either the previous file or the current file depending user ever cared about the distinction but there is that distinction is there not i mean the double pressed and the prior art was calculating the time between the pressing of one and the pressing of the second and it's different and continue reproduction the beginning of either file the pending or whatever currently playing file has played for a pre determined amount of time has played is an ambiguous term we talk about playing a record or a cd or d v d and we talk about that from when w it they also have a meaning that could talk about the amount of time that the sound has come out of the speaker but the claims actually discuss both continuing the reproduction and playing in the do it distinctly more importantly you look at the specification only description of timing in this that has played is ambiguous did you ask for a construction of the phrase has played no we didn't directly ask for that we applied some of the constructions that have been used in the district court case but it came up obviously during the course of beginning of article sound were the reproduction of sound if you will but it was certainly should not exclude the preferred environment which refers to clocking in then doing the reset when not to sixty seven is as i understand distinction between when do you go to the beginning of the current file and when to go to the beginning of the previous file and the only explanation of that in column fifteen or anywhere in the patent is basically you make an assumption about whether the you know if they hit relatively early on and during play time you want to go back to the beginning of the previous file otherwise you go back to the beginning of the current file that has very little to do with whether some tiny fraction of a second or or maybe even a full second because that's just got nothing to do with the predetermine amount of time in terms of its significance in the patent but again i think our main point here is that the plain language of the claim does not specify what has played mean it actually talks about both playing and reproduction of sound and doesn't equate th i've been trying to explain that has played coming and include how long it's been since you've hit the play button not just how much time has it been coming out of the speaker or has it been reproduced in the circuitry somewhere it's at least in the if there were a five second delay they intuitively the term has played and i punch a button and i weigh five seconds and then the song begins i would not think that that song has been playing for pattern our point is that the term is at least ambiguous and why would you really have to exclude the way the pattern doesn't figure three again that's the only place really record the start time so if you agree with us on that point then you turn to that single back command issue if i may and again i think a picture speaks a thousand words if you can take a look at figure two of us all for example on page thirty nine of  in several different places any one of those examples will do we think this affects only claim to be seventy six and that's the only claim that requires single back command as opposed to a which normally  it moves to the start of track and it starts the timer none of this is disputed so if nothing happens during that two three period it times out but that it basically goes back into normal mode and if that happens and you press it just after that she three predetermine amount of time in red then you re enter a reverse program selection mode and you move to the beginning of track and the pattern refers to it as being the same as the first press it is a it is another press their movement is in response to that last one because the first one timed out if there is an intervening button pressed during that t three period a second pressed and it moves to the beginning of track in minus one that matches claim three exactly that at least the term had played as played is going to give us as to whether we're talking about actual reproduction of audible sound or chewing it up and including the tiny little bit of time that it's going to take in a modern m p three player he really is two and so we are arguing that that the reset time can be included in t three it's within the scope of the claims and even if you disagree on that then as always at least disclosed both t three and t two and you can look at that pre predetermine yes in and yet it's fair if your argument is that it's not it's it's it can be determined because even though it's honor medically support ok i just want to address the whole idea the specifications teaching that the steps of figure three is how predetermined amount of time is being determined contests that proposition and he says no the only reference to the start of the timing is a reference that refers to sixty seven so what your answer to that well there's a very clear  a new programming advertising or announcement segment the segment start recorded in the usage will that's what they cited and now this does not say anywhere that this timer is being used for the amount of time the song is play time for purposes of the cost in the billing functions that the usage of log is generally referenced as being used for and i just want and that's found that column thirteen line eight the start referring to actual cost per time unit the time now let's go a little bit farther is here's a really get to the critical point the step two sixty seven the recording of end times is described further you will eventually column thirteen lines twelve through one thousand and this is what it says note that it is not unnecessary to record the end time for the prior segment the same value as the start time for the next segment well that's critically important here because they're not actually measuring the end time in the cities they're measuring the start time was the start time is after the rese explicit recited function here ok so in terms of the region term and amount of time do you agree that has played is embedded with no i think it's absolutely clear the ordinary plain meaning is when the song was quite also when you look at step two thirty five there's a skin tone you playbacks that that isn't clued reset time that's another indicative of what that means means when the song is playing and of course they're saying you need a printer but you don't even need this isn't even a timer just recording t end and new start but i'm i i need more information about what exactly that will what the segment in segment start it actually doesn't measure the ends just measuring starts because of the passage i just all it does instead is go to positions that are selected by the algorithm and that would be the next on the sequence of the appropriate block type in those situations the listener doesn't even know what their might jump to because some of the and starting at about line twenty one sure what it says at their command the skip command indicated at t seventy five in figure three causes the player to advance to the beginning of the next program segment in the program sequence recording the start of the next sequence at two sixty seven and resetting the playback position at two sixty nine isn't that doesn't that describe exactly what your friend on the other side says two sixty seven is all about know i mean it could be only timing occurs at two sixty seven and says recording the start of the sequence but it's an actual timer i mean it's referred to playback time again if you look down it later in the column it it may well be used if you're doing some sort of metering that's another use for in the same terms that at mr hardee just talked about it so i guess i'm trying to understand why you tell us that we should read a time into that box when that the detail description of what that does does but that's not anything that said discussed in these claims the only discussion of any timing here is this passage here that it may well be the start of the next segment but that just confirms my point that's the dividing line you don't get for the pre determined period of time you need to know how much time has elapsed since the beginning you don't need to know how much time is remaining till the end of the segment there was some question about a column twelve lines forty sixty four in g timing actually if you look at that it's talking about the numerical order as track number one two three four five six so really this is the only discussion of it and apparently finally on the on the cross appeal the issue with respect to the go and skip commands again were the more discussed things one and claim for separately it addressed to go command and separately address the skip command they are distinct functions and we had knowledge that in our petition and we explained that the go command will let you go to the beginning of a user selected track which you can do by hitting say the right arrow if you want to go to number one and number three you just from down arrow and you go to when you go to number three you can go anywhere it talks about scrolling this is in both chase and load the function is disclosed the question is really the out rhythmic structure and that was undisputed we had an expert who explain why the algorithmic structure in chase's software appendix explain directly explain how to go to the next file was also rendered obvious going to the command proclaim one that just money was undisputed it was expressly credited by the board attorney argument is great it just wasn't in the an undisputed opinion of our expert and it actually it makes sense because it's actually quite easy to go to any file once you know i want to go to the file three you just tell it to go to file three the structure there was actually know if i may so i want to point something out claims one seven eight nine ten and thirteen require the sequencing file from outside the player to be sent to the player based upon the personalized preferences o short there are many quotes on this but the quote that i want to focus is on is this even when desired programming is found you must be listened to when it's a broadcast that is times chosen by the broadcaster  not the listener will the words broadcaster and not the listener means the specification is clearly drawing the station be thin broadcasters and listeners and if we treat the broadcaster preference the preferences and that having personalised preferences that sided on page fifty nine so this theory relying on a d j broadcasters preference is to meet the claim limitations of the the listeners preference