they're going on a renaissance h so how does hydroelectric power work first a dam is built on a large river creating huge quantities of water in a reservoir gravity causes the water to pour through massive tubes called pan stocks the rushing water turns a giant turban propeller and the shaft of that propeller goes up into the g content welcome to the meeting the subcommittee water and power which will now come to order the purpose of this today's meeting is to hold an oversight hearing at the request of ranking member cathy mcmorris rodgers on hydro power providing seventy five percent of america's current renewable renewable energy i'm sorry i'm hurrying exploring its role as the continued source of clean renewable energy for the future welcome to all congress members after my opening statement i will recognize all the members of the subcommittee for any statement they may have any member who desires to be heard will be heard additional material may be submitted for the record by members by witnesses or by any interested party the record will be kept open for ten business days following the hearing the five minute rule with our tie aymer will be inforced green means go yellow just like the stop light ok i sincerely want to thank the chairwoman of this subcommittee grayson politan all for the opportunity to hold this hearing it's it's quite unusual for a chairwoman to recognize the request of a ranking member and i  like this and i want to just applaud and and your willingness to listen and learn from some differing perspectives it's as you know i requested this hearing because as congress examines the facts surrounding global warming i believe we owe it to the american people to be honest and realistic about how we're going to meet our energy needs today's hearing is the first step toward giving the american people and those inside the beltway much needed information about hydro power which in many ways is an environmental success story hydroelectric dams across the west and especially in washington state provide us with clean affordable and renewable energy in fact dams provide nearly two thirds of washington state's electricity at a time when more than fifty percent of the country is dependent upon coal according to the northwest powering conservation council these dams have kept the pacific northwest carbon footprint at half that of the rest of the nation and i and many of my colleagues here today are here to showcase the low cost energy promises that f d r j f k and l b j made to the west the river systems throughout the pacific northwest are a critical part of our region's economy and should be used for transportation irrigation and recreation these dams built our economy and continue to contribute to our way of life according to noah fisheries salmon survival in the columbia and snake rivers is higher today than before the dams were built it's estimated that ninety eight percent of adult fish and ninety percent of juvenile fish navigate the dam successfully despite this success there continues to be some that wage war on the dams namely the removal of the four lower snake river dams which happen to be in my district and docks we heard about this at a recent fishery subcommittee hearing from our seattle colleague jim mcdermott yet what was missing missing from that debate was the fact that the removal of the snake river dams would add five point four million tons of c o two to the atmosphere each year and it would take three nucular six coal fired or fourteen gas fired power plants to replace their electricity generation these dams also serve as the base resource for integrating wind energy into the northwest grid at a time of growing energy demand it makes no sense to throw this clean energy source away i'm committed as we move forward with the debate on global climate change that hydro power be recognized for the important role it plays in our markets if the chicago climate exchange can accept hydro from silang county p u d s a carbon offset congress should be able to do the same i hope today's discussion is the start to a better understanding of the value hydropower has and look forward to forming a bipartisan congressional caucus to protect and promote hydropower we're privileged to have before us today some of the best and brightest energy experts i welcome our distinguished witnesses and thank you once again madam chairwoman for having this hearing you're very welcome ms mcmorris rodgers and i too have it interest in hydro power i'm glad that my colleague had asked that we look at it we need to look at every single source of assistance to developing hydro power and how well some of the grids are doing and how we can connect newly developed power and how can we begin to look at how everybody is deeming where the hydro power is taxable or nontaxable all the little intricacies that everybody is is now facing how do we help be able to make it more feasible to add to that to us to serve the growing constituency of ours throughout the united states it isn't just in cathy syria or in my but throughout many many areas of our country it is a very important issue and i'm glad that she raised it i'm happy to join forces to have a look see and get more in input information so that possible legislation that will help address what is being faced currently and being able to ask the bureau and possibly the army corps to be partners along with us in addressing these issues and with that ms mcmorris rodgers thank you very much start by recognizing subcommittee members ok so first do you have an opening statement you do ok yes and i'll ask everyone to keep them as short as possible they can be submitted for the record mr mr smith fresca just very briefly i would like to point out that this hearing is very important and certainly i am energized to no pun intended i hear more about the potential for hydro power i know  the brassica we have some smaller projects but they are vital in their functioning and certainly it's relevant to our area shoes today thank you thank you mr baka what think you very much first of all i want to thank the  chair grace the peloton and you mr rogers for holding this hearing when we look not only it hi joe pa but when you look at water and power in the feeling of water and power and its meaning and what it means story country right now it's an area that we need to address because not only how it impacts us now but how our country will be faced in terms of the future so i'm glad that we're going to be addressing a lot of these issues as we begin to look at how our cities will operate within each of our areas and how we can turn around and use not only water and power to meet our energy needs so with that thank you very much for having this hearing thank you mr sally a couple things first of all idaho ranks number nine in nation for installed hydro power generation capacity but it is first in net generation capacity eighty four percent of the net generation in idaho is provided by hydro power there are great benefits including cost at four point one two cents per kilowatt hour compared to the national average of eight point nine cents per kilowatt hour everybody knows hydro power  better overall than any other metro area in the united states the study was based on three key measures of economic vitality which are productivity social and environmental sustainability the study found that the boise nampa metro area ranked fifth nationally for the lowest per capita carbon footprint in the nation and it was reported and in general western states fared better in the rankings and i'm quoting from the study primarily because  region relies on clean hydro power for most of its electricity the conclusion of this study is that other metro areas in the united states ought to try and emulate places like boise idaho and our reliance on hydro power and electricity that comes from it which keeps our carbon footprint very low you know we'll we'll have a lot of discussion today about the millions of tons of carbon emissions that are saved by using  ranking member for allowing me to sit on the day as with you i had the opportunity to serve on this committee my first term in congress and things haven't changed much i think the pictures have been moved around a little bit but i do want to thank you very much for the opportunity to to be here far left bob is a leader in the washington legislature he's a state senator on natural resource issues in a lot of the things that he does and his staff do are looked at in and consumed by a lot of people in the northwest so i want here and then on the second panel is tim culberson to mizzi general manager of the grant county public utility district and they just recently they have two nonfederal dams on the columbia river and they just recently we got  both of those damn so and jim has been a leader in power issues within the northwest i should also recognize that glen english who was a former i was in here when glenn was in the the congress but he represented oklahoma six district for many years before coming see becoming c e o of the national rural lector co op there's been a lot of discussion about hydro power i just want to make a couple of facts because those of us in the northwest recognize how important hydro power  hydro annual hydro power output is equivalent to energy produced by two hundred million barrels of oil hydro power is clearly the most efficient form electrical generation hydro backs up other renewable energy sources such as wind and solar and just keep in mind when power doesn't work unless the wind blowing in solar power doesn't work unless the sun shining hydro of course works because it's water going downhill and it's a good backup for  these other other energy sources and hydro offsets more carbon emissions than all other all other renewable energy sources combined and  we are a leader in the northwest as far as carbon emissions in northwest prince of because of hydro power so if we're going to have this discussion about about global warming in carbon offsets and all these sort of things i think what we need to do is continue to push hydro power because it is very very clean and and i think both of you for holding this hearing i think it's an it's a very very important hearing  much madam chairwoman and ranking member i thank you for holding today's oversight hearing and for allowing me to participate there's been a tremendous amount of interest in the development of new technologies to help guide a clean energy future for our nation but as we strive to develop the next generation of energy sources we cannot overlook the importance of hydro electricity a time tested proven renewable energy technology that is widely available today no other clean renewable energy source provides the same combination of cost effectiveness of fission c and dependability as our nation's hydro power facilities the premier hydroelectric facility in my home state of california shasta day i'm currently provides enough the mission's free electricity the serve up the seven hundred thousand households clean energy from shasta dam has helped the city of reading the largest city in my northern california congressional district develop an impressive renewable energy portfolio indeed twenty five percent of reading's electricity comes from hydro power making it one of the most renewal friendly cities in our nation madam chairwoman the mayor of reading has sent me this letter on the benefits of hydroelectricity and with your permission i'd like this letter to be made a part of today's hearing record so ordered thank you shasta dam is also incredibly efficient recent upgrades allow the turbans that shasta the utilized up to ninety eight percent of the energy stored in each acre foot of water that passes through the dam fossil fuels are critically important to our energy security but no fossil energy plants can match that high level of efficiency like other hydro facilities shasta dam can also whisper on to the changing energy needs of his customers literally in a matter of seconds something that simply can't be done at a thermal energy plant in addition to its virtues as an energy source shasta dam delivers other critical critically important benefits such as water storage flood control and recreation madam chairwoman as congress continues to look for ways to encourage clean a reliable energy to power our nation hydro electricity must remain at the forefront of this discussion in my view rather than tearing down dams we should be looking for opportunities to build both of your efforts in holding to this afternoon's hearing it is important hydroelectric power does provide the majority of america's renewable energy supply and in california it's  been doing that for over one hundred years we have one project called the big creek project that provides water to southern california and it used to be dubbed the hardest working water in the world and in the thirty's provided half the  electrical supply for the city of los angeles los angeles has grown since the one nine hundred thirty s so it doesn't provide quite as much of their total source of power but nonetheless it's still an important increment of southern california's power along with the chast as my caller mr herder noted and other very important hydroelectric project throughout the state as well as throughout the nation in addition we've also implemented where it's the economics of work small hydro where we've used just our canals to put small hydro systems on that maybe only can operate for an arab nation season of two months or three months based upon water availability and they play a role as well i guess what i'm going to be looking for in terms of the expert testimony this afternoon is with the changes occurring and climate doesn't matter whether or not you subscribe to man's impact on the climate i can tell you it's change and it has been changing ever since the planet's been here we've had ice ages it's changing and it's changing now how much we're contributing is another debate but it is changing and what the changes with late winners early spring how do we operate these projects how do we opt these proper eight these projects because in every hydroelectric project we have a certain capacity that's built in whether it's shastri or whether it's the big great project or any others for water supply for for farms we have a certain amount that's for flood control and we have a certain amount that's for electrical generation and sometimes when it's optimum to generate power we may need to keep that water there for our farms are we made in maine maintain the adequate reservoir supply for our cities use not to mention being prepared to every winter time for a big flood that may occur based upon the amount of snow pack that you get so i'm wondering what kind of work is being done to determine how we i'd like to ask this committee for a moment in silence for former commissioner keyes who perished in your plane accident he was a good public servant that we had the greatest respect for so if i may madam chair i'd like for us one moment of silence ye ok thank you i might i might also met mention to the committee members someone i think it might have been the chairwoman made some cupcakes that you know you can find in the back when you when you need a little nourishment and i can testify she's a good cook ok let's let's get to those that have traveled from a long distance to be here today our first panel we have the honorable bob morton washington state senator from kettle falls washington next bob johnson commissioner of the bure bureau of reclamation here in washington d c dr howard gr inspect deputy administrator of the energy information administration here in washington d c melinda eden oregon council member from the northwest power and conservation council she's from milton fried free water oregon and finally the honorable glenn english chief executive officer of the national rural ector cooperative association in arlington virginia mr english also served as a member of congress from oklahoma sixth congressional district for ten excessive terms so welcome everyone let's start with senator mornin chairwoman appleton tanno yes i'm robert morton i serve in the legislature state of washington in the senate and on motion of the natural resources energy environment and water committe and i understand one of my task today is to bring a little background of the history of our area i share my district in bordering with both acting chairwoman and with congressm and together i have with them on the one shoreline and me on the other all of the waters behind grand coulee but many of the dams both  in the snake river and the pond or a river i might mention that the pond or a supplies one third of the water volume into the olympic into the columbia where they merge and most people don't realize that the heaviest flow which come out of of course british columbia alberta and down into idaho montana and then into washington we have fifty five major damage twenty nine of those are projects of the federal government and it's important to point out that the remaining nonfederal dams primarily come from s the public until it is district the bonneville power administration the b p a administers then distributes the power supply from these dams are unique arrangement based in portland oregon if you ever have the opportunity to be there it's very educational no federal tax dollars are involved in this it is paid for by the reship events the ratepayers and it provides just as many of you have mentioned by some of the cleanest power that we have yes the hydro power is sold in the summertime to those who need it in the wintertime we have to buy much of the water and or the electricity the supply that is supplied by the water however because of the statistics that are used there has been some assumption that the hydro power in the northwest is all tapped out this simply is not true the many undeveloped sites still remain where we can place dams create the pools for the flow for generation of the power we also must recognize that many of the dams that are there are not storage than they are run of the river and that makes a big difference in examining then and one of the points i'd make later examining then the potential of increasing the height of these dams and therefore capturing much of the snow pack and that comes out of canada for us seventy five percent of northwest's energies transmission is also under the jurisdiction of b p a so we must look not only at the dams and the storage and the generation now we got the power generator how we transmitted and we are in great need of improved large ring enlarging our transmission it's interesting to note to give you a little comparison the columbia basin area alone which is primarily what we refer to as the columbia basin of the columbia river is two hundred sixty thousand square miles and that is an area that is equal to the nation of france offers first to the local area regions and if they do not need it then they can go ahead and sell it as i mentioned we have however the ability then to both sell or export and import export during the summer months and then we need to import during the winter months it's a reliable affordable and renewable with no greenhouse gases  senator morton i i show you the red light yeah it's already the red light and and what i would just ask is i think you will have some more time towards the ending q and a for you to make some of your points thank you very much thank you next we'll move on to robert johnson thank you so a pleasure to be here today and to provide the apartment of interiors views on reclamation is hydropower resources and the public benefits they provide while reclamation is best known as a supplier of water generating electricity is also a very important part of our mission we characterize reclamation as a water and power organization and were extremely proud of our role hydro power is the most efficient way to produce energy each kilowatt hour of hydro electricity is produced in an efficiency of more than twice that of thermal energy sources hydro power is extremely flexible can rapidly change its out that output to match needs going from no generation the maximum in a very short period of time reclamation is not new to the power generation business since one thousand and nine power revenues have contributed over ten billion dollars in project repayment for the reclamation program we operate fifty eight hydro power plants which produce forty four million megawatt hours of electricity per year anough to supply over six million households the energy produced by reclamation facilities replaces about forty eight point four billion pounds of coal and avoids production  fifty one million pounds of carbon dioxide that would have been produced by fossil fuel power plants are hydro plants also play an important role in reliability of the electric grid most traditional power plant plants cannot restart themselves in the event of a total loss of power but hydroelectric generators since they can be started without external power could be used to restart the system in the event of a blackout reclamation has eighteen of its hydroelectric power plant identified as these black star restoration as part of these black start restoration plans another benefit of hydro power is the revenue it creates for endangered species recovery for fiscal years two thousand and two through two thousand and six bonneville power administration hydr power revenues provided a rough average of two hundred sixty million dollars for salmon recovery per here this money has funded state of the art programs to reestablish self sustaining populations of endangered fish other hydro power facilities also provide funding for environmental programs throughout reclamation hydro power also enables other renewable power like wind generation to be more usable when generation is intermittent and it needs and celery support services to be integrated into an electric grid hydro power provides this quick response necessary to enable getting when generated power to the load having said all this reclamation faces many challenges in operation of its power plants traditionally operational power plants allowed for water releases to be timed so that generation coincided with the higher daytime electricity demand this is referred to as load following and is one of the most significant benefits of hydro generation however this traditional operation is no longer routine because of new endangered species and environmental requirements for example endangered fish at the grand canyon national park endangered fish and grand canyon national park values below going canyon dam have modified that facilities operations significantly reducing the capability for meeting energy daily energy demand reclamation has necessarily incorporated these types of environmental demands and a number of our other facilities as well through the cooperative efforts within the department of the interior and the others and our customers and other stakeholders it is possible to meet the various project purposes amidst these new demands reclamation is develop many innovative means of stretching existing resources to meet the increasing demands and or improve efficiency in example since two thousand two thousand and five five turbans at hoover dam have received new wicked gates which allows increased gate opening so that more water flow through the turbans these actions have increased generating capacity by seven seventy megawatts and additional twenty nine megawatts is projected to be installed within the next three years we estimate that a conservative value of this new energy is three million dollars per year the bureau reclamation also has implemented benchmarking programs to compare its hydro power operations to the industry we found that our operations are competitive with other hydro power facilities and we've also improved significantly our operations an example would be at hoover dam we've improved our operations to being about average to actually resulting in the best in class  determination for how we operate that plant and its efficiency in closing hydro power is an important part of our mission and we'll continue to work with our customers to provide this invaluable national resource this concludes my oral testimony i'm to testify today on current and future role of hydropower the energy information administration and the independent statistical one analytical agency within the department of energy we don't promote formulate or take positions on policy issues unlike almost everyone else in washington and our view should not be construed as representing those of the department of energy or the administration in two thousand and seven conventional hydroelectric power production accounted for two hundred forty eight billion kilowatt hours of electricity or seventy one percent of total renewable generation in the united states most of the hydro power in the united states is located near the west coast in two thousand and seven washington california and oregon together accounted for one hundred forty billion kilowatt hours or fifty six percent of total u s hide power generation while hydro capacity has been relatively constant in recent years annual generation has varied quite significantly primarily due to changes in annual energy outlook the energy information administration publishes projections of supply and consumption to twenty thirty under the assumption that current laws and regulations remain in effect unless they are already scheduled to expire in the projections issued earlier this year less than one gigawatt of new conventional hydro power capacity is added by two thousand and thirty and generation hole steady at approximately three hundred billion kilowatt hours it's important to note however that does not yet include unconventional hydroelectric power technologies such as wave title or in stream turbans in its analysis since it's difficult to obtain reliable cost and performance estimates of technologies that are in their early phases of development generation using other renewable energy technologies is rejected to go quite rapidly over the same period reflecting the effects of high fossil fuel prices the availability of production tax credits under existing law and mandatory renewable energy portfolio standards in over half the states and again as mentioned by the two previous witnesses hydro power has an important role in complimenting intermittent renewables the rules of state programs differ widely across the states however as a broad generalization many state programs favor non hydro power renewable energy sources over conventional hydropower policy proposals to limit emissions of greenhouse gas emissions that were touched on in the in the opening statements could have a significant impact the mix of fuels used to generate electricity in particular by reducing the use of conventional coal fired generation which currently provides about half the nation's electric generation and roughly one third of total u s energy related emissions of carbon dioxide the i a e a has done analysis of many pieces of climate legislation including the one that was considered in the senate last week and in those analyses we found or projected an increase of one point five to over six gigawatts of hydro capacity in two thousand and thirty relative to what we have in our reference case under current laws and regulations and that range depends on the assumptions made regarding the cost in a valve and availability of a low emitting technologies including nuclear fossil plants with carbon capture and storage and biomass many other source are affected to a much larger extent the relatively limited growth for hydro electricity is largely due to the limited supply of sites on which hydro power can be expanded or created most existing sites have some potential for incremental capacity and the but the list of new sites in which new dams can be constructed is short that said there are some opportunities for conventional capacity improvements existing dams as well as placing electricity turbans at sites that may be dammed but currently lack generators as previously noted their analysis did not consider wave title or in stream turbans and that's another opportunity finally while policies to limit greenhouse gas emissions would likely create new market opportunities for hydro it's important to recognize that climate change itself could have major implications for generation at existing hydropower facilities because hydro generation is so sensitive to climate v ability and weather patterns even small changes in temperature and or perceived patterns could have significant impacts hydro plants could also be impacted if there were a change in the number or intensity of extreme weather events but it's really very difficult to know whether that would be the case or not this group clues my testimony madam chairwoman i would be happy to answer any questions you may have thank you appreciate that is eaten thank you good afternoon madam madame's chair and members of the subcommittee on behalf of the council thank you for the invitation to appear here today the council is a compact of the states of idaho montana oregon and washington created under the authority of the northwest  eighty through its planning the council assures the northwest region and adequate deficient economical and reliable power supply also protecting mitigating and enhancing fish and wildlife affected by hydropower band dams in the columbia river basin i have basically four points first the role of hydro power in the northwest with normal precipitation hydro power dams in the northwest provide about fifteen thousand five hundred average megawatts or about seventy five percent of all the electricity used in the northwest most of the remainder is provided by power plants that burn natural gas or coal the amount of electricity provided by other non hydro power forms of renewables particularly wind is small but growing biomas plants provide less than two percent of the region's generating capacity geothermal and solar together provide less than one percent at this point wind power provides four point seven percent and that proportion is increasing second as a result of renewa resource requirements in three of the northwest states development of wind and other renewable power sources will continue to grow in fact development of renewables particularly wind has been growing steadily for nearly a decade since two thousand our region has gained nearly thirty five hundred megawatts of wind power that has important implications for hydro power as others have mentioned which provides backup generation for times when the wind does not blow when challenge we face is to integrate intermittent wind power into the power supply where it is critical that electricity flow to steady constant rate with no interruptions even small ones as the title of this hearing indicated hydro power is clean and renewable hydro power in the mix reduces the output from power plants that burn fossil fuels last november the council reported the results of its year long study of carbon dioxide emissions from northwest power plants the study demonstrates the moderating effect of the region's large hydro power base on carbon dioxide emissions otherwise produced by the power system especially compared with other areas of the west with less hydro power and more thermal generation for example under normal water conditions in two thousand and five the northwest would have produced about five hundred twenty pounds of carbon dioxide for each megawatt hour of general alexis electricity generated compared to nine hundred pounds per megawatt hour for the the rest of the west however like other areas of the country the northwest faces the likelihood of rising greenhouse gas emissions  albeit at a slower rate than elsewhere moderating slowing and eventually reversing this growth is challenge for our region as well as for the nation as well as for our region it will be difficult according to our study to achieve carbon reduction goals with policy that policies that focus only on new power plants to achieve those limits some existing coal fired plants in our region will have to be placed with energy conservation and generators that produce little or no carbon dioxide finally madam chair i want to highlight our energy conservation story in the wisdom of congress the northwest power act of one thousand nine hundred eighty treats cost effective energy conservation as the highest priority resource to meet future regional demand for power today twenty eight years later the importance of energy conservation is greater than ever before energy servatius is unlike any other electricity resource conservation requires no fuel requires no backup resource produces no emissions and requires no ongoing expense important in the northwest conservation also reduces pressure on the hydro power system and therefore increases its potential to serve as a backup from the new  hundred eight the northwest has achieved thirty seven hundred megawatts of energy conservation the accomplishment last year alone was two hundred megawatts an annual record for our region forty percent of the growth and electricity demand over the last twenty eight years has been met through conservation that amount thirty seven hundred megawatts is equal to the electricity demand of seattle portland and boise combined it is equal to seven large coal fired plants that did not have to be  thirteen and a half million tons of carbon dioxide that were not emitted into the atmosphere and a savings to consumers of nearly two billion dollars in zero seven compared to the cost of electricity from the wholesale market the average cost of this conservation was less than three cents per kilowatt hour the current cost of wind power is more than eight cents per kilowatt hour looking to the future of the council will continue to rely on conservation we have identified more than three thousand megawatts of additional conservation that is available  also at a cost of less than three cents per kilowatt hour that concludes our testimony thank you very much very good everyone's being quite timely here let's see bring you a little different perspective and perhaps an appreciation of just how important hydro is going to be for the future i think we all recognise and understand that we're likely to see climate change legislation passed in the not too distant future given the position of the two political nominees of major parties it's very likely we're going to see climate change a lot in the not too distant future what is not recognized i don't think can receive nearly as much attention is the fact that  the generation capacity of this country is pretty much exhausted and we built excess capacity back in the late seventy's early eighty's that's pretty much gone and given what the energy information agency has projected for the year twenty thirty we're told we're going to have about a thirty percent increase in demand over and above what we have today some two hundred sixty four gigawatts of power and the real question that we have facing us is obviously a time in which additional generation needs to be built and that has to be to be balanced with what climate change legislation may pass the congress and  next decade that could be a very serious pinch the reason that i say that is due to the fact that already we're seeing the chilling effect of the use of the primary fuel that we have this for generation in this country and that's coal fired generation nationwide it's roughly half of all the generation is coal fired and we're seeing those plants that were on the drawing boards are now being shifted into primarily a natural gas that  is obviously going to have a serious impact as to the ability of the country to be able to meet the demand needs that means we have to have a lot of production out of a fission sea and a lot of renewable i'm very proud to say that i'm one of the steering committee members for the national organization of twenty five a twenty five which has its national to twenty five percent of our energy produced by the year twenty twenty five i'm also very pleased to say that that organization fully recognizes that hydro is a renewable and must play a very important role as far as the mix for the future the fact of the matter is madam chair up to this point when you talk about democratic republican administrations i'm not sure that we've seen the proper respect and appreciation for the contribution that is made by hydro in this country and certainly what is going to be necessary for the future bottom line is if in fact we're going to keep the lights on in this country we're going to need the full productive capacity of hydro in this nation and that means that we have to have upgrades improvements in the existing facilities and any additional contributions that can be made and that i think is a very important role indeed as we look at the fact that both corps of engineers and bureau of reclamation today practice a breakdown i would suggest that any time we have a breakdown anytime we have a generator shutdown what it means at that particular entity in order to acquire power must in fact buy on the open market and most likely the power that must be purchased is going to be power that is adding to the climate challenge making it more difficult for us to change any gains that the congress and the new president may lay down to us so i think it's extremely important for us to look ahead it's my understanding that we have a government report now underscoring the fact that twenty five hundred megawatts or proximately the output of four coal based power plants could be displaced through the rehabilitation and additional development of the hydroelectric resources that's something that the country desperately needs and we need that contribution so at the present time  h many of our members who are part of the federal preference customer group are providing funding and rehabilitation on our own they're taking money out of their own pocket and making the contribution to  congress and the new administration to recognize the importance of hydro the importance it's got to play in meeting in the climate change goals importance that it's going to play in the future at meeting this additional demand and certainly the importance in trying to keep  lectric bills down in this nation so madam chair i want to applaud the fact that you're having this harry applaud the fact that you recognize the importance of hydro and i hope that you're able to spread to your colleagues  the very important role that hydro will have to play if in country if this country indeed is going to keep the lights on and meet its needs thank you very much thank you and excellent testimony by everyone again appreciate you being here i'd like to just ask a question that each panelist can answer and it's and it does relate to electricity demand and as we think about the next twenty years there's a lot of differing opinions as to how we're going to meet electricity demand in this country and some think that new generation isn't necessary that it you know we can meet the demand through conservation efficiency  i'd like to just hear from you your perspective on the need for new generation and if you believe there is an opportunity for expanded hydro power generation i take it you're looking at me to start off well if you would like again thank you for allowing us to also share in the questions and answers the most exciting thing i see for the future and i don't think there's any argument about what we need more power we increase our industrial out increase our population the most exciting thing that we've changed so far is the i'm going to call the right project in the east river of new york city here we are way out in the other corner of the state looking at it the  placing turbans would be nice a short for a sort of flowing stream of water in our case we're looking seriously at the columbia river as a possibility for putting these many fixtures in that would generate power so we see that as a strong possibility the committee might want to consider and get more information  anyone else yes go ahead sure are in our outlook to twenty thirty when we do see growth in electricity demand but certainly much less than in the past when i was a kid electricity demand was increasing six seven eight percent a year so electricity demand would double every ten years now we're looking at growth much lower rate maybe one point one percent in our been relying on existing capacity for baseload in particular that was built we haven't built much new coal much new nuclear we have built a lot of gas recently although running those gas plants is very expensive  so over time the capacity factors on our existing nuclear and our existing coal plants have gone up and you know it's not very attractive because of climate change to build more coal plants if we're going to be serious about reducing greenhouse gas emissions so there is a need for baseload generation of some sort of conventional hydro you know while we think there are opportunities for improvements and additions that existing  sites history suggests that new sites may be quite difficult but as discussed by several of the witnesses some of these new technologies that frankly like the hydro paddick technologies could matter that includes both the tidal power it could also include i'm sorry the stream power could also include the wave power which is grouped into that but it's early days for those and you know we don't really include those in our in our base ye but there may be an opportunity there thank you madam chair i would suggest this is a common sense tells you that that we're going to have to have more generation if you're going to lemon to the primary fuel that we've had in this country for the last well for most of the last century namely coal and that's basically what we're going to do with climate change legislation until we have the technology for carbon capture and storage and  that technology will not be available to well i after twenty twenty so for the next decade or so we're going to primarily be shifting to natural gas and obviously we're going to need all the help that we can get out of the fish and we're going to need everything we can get out of renewables and we're going to have to have a real stretch here to be able to meet the power needs of this country and take care of the demand that is as it is forecast that's one hundred eighteen  gigawatts here in the the next ten years that has to demand that has to be consumed in some way dealt with in some way to give you some idea of the magnitude of what we're talking about the next twenty years we're talking about roughly two and a half times the amount of power that's produced in the state of texas about four times which produced in california so it's a tremendous amount of power that has to be acquired in some fashion either reducing the demand increasing existing capacity capabilities and certainly renewables and hydro can play major role in that but i think it underscores once again that if we're going to do this and do it with an ambitious schedule on meeting climate change objectives then obviously we've got to maximize what we can get out of hydro and i think that's that's the lesson and certainly the message that needs to be take your colleagues in the congress as well as to the new president a new administration  chair i agree with the with the numbers for low growth that are predicted by the gentleman on either side of me the power council does a power plant every five years and a new a new one is due out next year the statute requires us to use cost effective conservation first in the northwest and then renewables and then as every other part of the country we've built quite a bit of gas in the meantime we will be looking at all of the possibilities including demand  response and and possibly hydro projects that have not yet been built our fifth power plan which came out in two thousand and four encouraged the upgrading of the existing hydro projects because there's a good deal of electricity that can be generated by investing the money necessary to upgrade those projects our last plan did not encourage the development of new hydro at least in the northwest because it was determined that all of the sites were small the potentials were small and the cost was tremendous so they weren't deemed to be economically feasible as we do every five years we'll be looking at that question again very good thank you madam chairwoman thank you ma'am i'd like to ask to all panelists that some of the testimony focuses on the potential for a new hydro power and i know we've discussed it and you've mentioned it may not be feasible in some areas developing a new from different from the from different sources do you think the house passed measure h r sixty forty nine that includes a provision making some hydro power projects eligible for the production tax credit in clean and renewable energy bond clean renewable energy bonds is certainly a part of the renewable effort electrical operates have underway and we've got some sixty million dollars that we're applying along those lines with regard to the incremental hydro so yes the more we can power we've got in this country and it does more more of a contribution to help people electric bills down than anything else on these days that's extremely important given energy prices the point that i would make is that we're anticipating because of the shortage and because of having to shift to natural gas that we're likely to see electric bills within this decade triple and maybe even more and so hydro can play a major role in dampening that and helping the whole that so it you know even the small projects they may not be cost effective now but as a lector bills go up they're going to become more cost effective in the globe more important as we try to hold down electric bills we project and  project that there we will have a major shift as far as the realities of this country is facing up to this point that has been a national policy since since the one nine hundred thirty s in the creation of the ar e a that electric power is affordable we do not think that all of our citizens are going to be able to for electric power in the not too distant future it will be a huge shift that has been a result of national policy that that thank you for your comments and that is something to look at  and back in the eighty's when i was in city council there was some discussion with our city manager in relation to utilizing the mains water the water mains going through the cities that were say eight to twelve inches to be able to put some kind of a device to be able to create the energy has anybody even looked at alternative way of developing that energy that may then not create the demand on the  grid but be able to survive at least not survive promote and help the local residents be able to at least not have rolling blackouts anybody yes ma'am thank you madam chair i'll give you an example of a project such as when you might be referring to in the disused river basin which is just over the cascades in oregon the irrigation districts and the indian tribes and  igators have all gotten together and they are trying to do their best to save water and enhance everyone's everyone's business and everyone's way of life one of the things they've done is to pipe irrigation canals so they're saving that water from evaporation and they have put on at least one of those canals and a new pressurized pipe a hydro project and i don't know exactly what the mega wattage is a production but i was surprised to hear that they were doing that on pressurized pipe i just heard about that this week and it's something that they're looking at there and so there must be something that irrigation districts and others are looking at especially all over the west may i ask him behalf of this committee that subcommittee that any information that you have be forwarded because it is important for us to begin looking at other alternative methods and i can tell you at the time that we were looking at in the city of norwalk they project that they would be able to provide electricity to the whole of the city hall complex which included about eight or ten buildings including chairs and libraries and other buildings so it could be something that might be locally available and assist in being able to provide that new energy that i'm sure i think there's a great value in keeping in the picture part of the whole puzzle part of the picture is the mall or operations we have one sheep creek it's literally a creek family developed the power this was twenty years ago and been very successful at selling it now to a vista however the regulations and the rules and the restrictions today would not permit them to be able to do that they would not be permitted mainly because of the legal work involved and of many rules and regulations that really as we have not adversely impacted that stream of water i think that's one thing we need to look at to look at the turbans that can be used as a scandinavian countries than other ones have done and we could benefit from their experiences  and referencing the blackout the western electricity blackout in the ninety's in the chaos that it brought about can you speak to how how i dance and hydropower could rise to the occasion for that because they have an ability to start up mediately hydro power facilities do have an ability to get the grid back up when you have a blackout now that ability has not historically had been used it hasn't had to be used but it's there and it's a very valuable resource to provide that start up when and if the  need occurs but in the blackout that we had back in the ninety's that actually the hydro facilities were not used in starting that and starting that back up and i don't think that there was a need they were able to do without it but certainly it's a valuable resource from that perspective and that the grid is capable of of transmitting that power in a sufficient man i think in most cases yes but i'm not you know i think that's probably a regional question and that i don't have enough specific information to respond completely to thank you another topic i guess  how and why but what can we do to address that but i think it's a good business decision for any entity affected by energy or especially hydro power and global and the climate change and the impact what how do you guys measure that what what do you do to kind of keep tabs on the effects of climate change we have been paying a lot of attention to climate change one of the problems that we have is there's not a lot of basin specific data that really allows you to do a good analysis of how you how we ought to be looking at operating our facilities in the future the very question that congressman costa was raising earlier we know that it's getting warmer we're know we're going to have earlier runoff how should that change our operations of our system but we don't have the specific data in terms of what is the stream flow going to be what is going to be the microclimate on the basin by basin basis we have an initiative in our own budget called water for america part of that initiative includes studies to try to get a better handle on that on a basin by basin basis so we're hoping to put some more resources into that area to try to get a better handle on how we should operating our facilities in light of climate change i appreciate that and let me just say that as one who represents a great number of irrigators in the be a wreck reclamation system i mean certainly the drought of the west has impacted things drastically and i think it's just a good business decision to keep tabs on that thank you mr costa thank you very much madam chairwoman both m eighty's in the early ninety to ninety two a six year drought we've been an extended drought on the colorado river so based upon those dry conditions we know how the systems have been operated during that time period i'm wondering if you can give us some more information based on that modeling and one other factor i don't know that you've been involved in i know others have with the study of tree rings in the micro basins on the sierra nevada and you know  the trees that go back two thousand years old are still alive and we have been able to determine is that based upon the proximity of those tree rings to one another dry periods versus extended wet periods of times over literally hundreds and actually up to almost two thousand years which gives us some good record of precipitation and one of the things that i've been told is that what it really clearly indicates is the last night a years in california on the micro basins of the sierra nevada have been unusually wet compared to other periods of time during the hundreds of years cycles going back a thousand fifteen hundred years if that's the case i mean you know we've got thirty eight million people in california we're projected to have fifty million in the not too distant future two thousand and thirty how are we going to make this water system work with the power well we have done the kind of analysis that you're talking about from a tree rain perspective we we've done quite a bit of study particularly on the colorado river basin to correlate tree rings with stream flow and we've recreated a five hundred year record on the colorado river system that does give us a chance to look at extended periods of drought and how that would affect our operations on that system and in fact that information was included in the result of drought conditions well we can look at periods of record that occurred in the past that were significantly dry and we can say if that kind of drought condition occurred again well not so much power how oh yeah sure absolutely we can look and see we're going to lose a lot of power before my time expires some of the things that we've done and i wonder how well you've inventory that that may be raises less political opposition but i are in partnership with the army corps are projects that are owned by other duties that have hydro facilities on them that have the potential to raise gates now there was an energy policy act that was passed about two years ago that required  development yes sir and how much additional power does it say we could realize we identified some in bureau of reclamation facilities and i couldn't tell you off the top of my head but it is not a lot to be real honest with you there's not there was not a lot i mean in the  have you have any potential but small hydro can add to our renewable hydro source declare because i had in our reference you know we have a modest very modest amount of additional conventional hydro added and i think that was consistent with much of the others in the panel but i want to make it clear that that was the conventional hydro and this unconventional hydro again has some well but it's very early days and it's very hard to define exactly what that is my terms expired thank thank you everyone that will conclude the first panel we may submit some questions to you in writing and we just ask that you respond as promptly as possible before the next panel is recognized i wanted to ask  animous consent that statements from the navajo tribal utility authority and the american public power association be included in the record  and i think go before the next panel comes up for those of you on pound to maybe you can start making your way to the table i want to show the committee a two minute clip of the today show piece on hydropower that i thought you would just back from a visit to the largest hydroelectric plant in the country i make just to hear about this kevin good morning well good morning they may have a panel exactly new hydro power has been around since the industrial revolution and the water will but it is relatively cheap and relatively clean for example did you know that people on the pacific northwest pay about half the electrical bills of people on the east too because they use water instead of coal contribute to the greenhouse gas effect as a traditional coal fired plant life doesn't have the nuclear waste problem and when it comes to generating hydro power the grand coulee dam in washington state standing the mighty columbia river remains a formidable player the grand coulee dam is not only the biggest source of hydroelectric power in north america it is also an engineering marvel five hundred fifty feet tall just short of a mile across and h the power of six point two trillion gallons of water to light up our cities so how does hydroelectric power work first a dam is built on a large river creating huge quantities of water in a reservoir gravity causes the water to pour through massive tubes called pen stocks the rushing water turns a giant turban propeller and the shaft of that propeller goes up into the generator the more the propeller turns the more electricity the generator reaches a total eleven states sending electricity as far east as chicago and as far south as los angeles if needed sixty percent of the city of spokane's electricity comes from hydro power much of it from the grand c salmon fishing whenever you put an impediment in the water like a day you're going to stop the free my great still here at the grand coulee they expect to provide millions of megawatts for years to come and it's still going strong as the demand for power continues to rise maybe even more and speaking of the salmon some of the newer dams are actually have salmon bridges built into them so the fish can get up and down stream that's something that they're trying to look at the grand coulee know the grand coulee how big is it enough cement went into that structure to go around the world make a sidewalk around the world not once but twice that's a big test and thanks very much for the information we appreciate portland oregon mr richard russo college the director of legal services for the natural hurt here to institute in san francisco he also serves as chairman of the director of legal services for the many natural heritage institute in san francisco i'm sorry for the governing board for the lower and i'm sorry i'm repeating myself as chairman of the governing board from low impact hydropower institute and general counsel from the hydropower reform coalition also we have with  bruce howard director for environmentalists fares for of these two utilities from spokane washington and finally mr culbertson general manager of the grant county public utility district from the freight to washington that i pronounce that right public power council representing the consumer on utilities of the northwest to purchase power from the federal columbia river power system they serve parts of seven states and serve forty one percent of the consumers in the region so they appreciate you holding this hearing today and thank you very much for having this hearing and also for showing that media clip that was well done and right on point it just it actually displays a lot of the points i'm going to  make you've got my written testimony for the record so i'm just going to quickly point on three points here and i'll focus on the federal side but i agree with much of the testimony that i know both tim colbert sent and bruce howard are going to present on the non federal side as well scuse me i've got a cough that's a constant condition of having three children under seven so i apologize for that but my first point is it really is as you saw partly in that video it's really difficult to oversee to overstate how critical this issue is not just to the northwest but nationally i know ranking member mcmorris rodgers understands us very well and represents assume the northwest very well in this respect but the benefits of this hydro power system in the columbia snake river system are extensive because it is the fabric of our economy there in the region and it's not a part manner it's just a fact it's renewable low cost very reliable very flexible power and it's able to facilitate the newer renewables very well as of others have mentioned but it's integrated also with the rest much of the rest of the economy including certainly on the irrigation side the farming side food processing barge transportation forty million tons worth moving down this system a friend reminded me as we were talking about this hearing to mention how this does function as a system so we have a especially on the on the federal side but actually all of the the whole system we have agreements to coordinate the hydro power and the transmission system including with canada and this creates quite an amazing engine for the region northwesterners realize the value of this renewable power in fact we did some polling with a group called northwest river partners that showed very clearly that most citizens in the northwest view hydro power is renewable similar to solar and wind and this brings me to my second point about this system it is a flexible  system with storage capability but it's not just a system for the north west in the sixty's and seventy's and the video showed showed this very well we had the foresight to build large transmission lines five hundred killable lines south to california in the desert southwest so that where we are connected in a real sense in the summer power move south for cooling in the winter power moves north for heating and that works very well and it's a key to the western economy it also works well in times of crisis and i guess i have a answer that first slightly from mr johnson so question on the first panel i think the hydro power system has been critical in times of energy crisis to avoid even worse crisis is because in part of the storage capability there not to mention the fact that the generators themselves are very reliable in fact on the federal system they have a forced outage rate of about three percent so it's a very reliable system and very useful in many respects to avoid problems with generation and that brings me to my third point on emissions just to finish up i think the benefits to hydro are are world wide but they're definitely west wide and i would just point you to a couple of charts that i have on page four of my testimony that show that when you have better hydro years and figure a you have lower emissions and vice versa you also as represented mcmorris pointed out very well would have much increased c o to production if you take ou generation such as some of proposed on the snake river so this is a safe reliable low cost resource it's a proven technology and it's too valuable to neglect or degrade in light of the great challenges facing us moving forward again and i'm chairwoman ranking member mcmorris rodgers other members thank you so much for holding this hearing and also for this opportunity to testify i have four points the first is nonfederal hydropower provides multiple benefits our generation water supply flood control water quality protection fish and wildlife and handsome and indeed your predecessors and f d r seventy two a years ago and acted the federal power act which requires that each project must be best adapted to a comprehensive plan of development of the affected waters for all of these beneficial uses now since one thousand nine hundred six many of the projects that were built way back when have been relicensed and the course of those decisions the power generation has ninety eight percent of the power generation has been preserved the generation capacity has actually increased by four percent and in addition the projects now provide substantially greater benefits for fish and wildlife and recreation and water supply and flood control for the benefit of all of the affected communities indeed most of these new licenses are based on settlements in part because the hydro reform coalition whose executive director is here and the national hydro power association whose executive director is also here have advocated to our respective members that settlements are preferable to litigation as the basis for these  licensing decisions now a few of these projects have been decommissioned but they've been decommissioned only where the utilities or the merchant generators who own them concluded that it was in their interest as well as the public interest to decommission them my second point goes to federal projects congress of course authorizes federal projects directly they have what amounts to perpetual licenses nonetheless every federal operator has authority to reexamine its plan of operation the rule curves which guide its operations and each project unfortunately due to budget and staff constraints the plans for many of these projects are literally decades old this subcommittee should encourage all federal operators to look at their plans of operation and i mean every one of them in order to optimize the power generation and other benefits which these projects could provide and indeed that would be an excellent opportunity to look at climate change now to answer congressman kostis question in california the department of water resources has now looked at climate change sufficiently to predict the range of impacts on water supply operations the best case involve substantially greater risk of spills from our storage dams and the worst case is much worse we now have the knowledge in california and i believe in other states to begin integrating climate change whatever causes it into the operational decisions for federal and nonfederal hydropower allying i third point goes to retrofitting of existing projects whether federal or nonfederal in answer to another question i believe that existing projects are existing capital stock should be retrofitted where that can be done in a manner that provides enhanced benefits power generation water supply recreation fish and wildlife protection indeed the low impact hydro power institute which is a voluntary enterprise established by the conservation community has now certified more than two thousand megawatts of capacity in this country some of it incremental hydro power redevelopment precisely for that reason so as to provide market benefits for retrofits and in turn we help sponsor the legislation madam chairwoman that you referenced h r six zero four nine and support production tax credits for retrofits and  opportunities at the federal projects again i believe that if the federal operators examine their plans of operation they could find opportunities for retrofits and bring those back to this congress for funding my last point goes to new development hydro kinetic or dam less technology has substantial progress promise whether in the east river the right project that was mentioned earlier or in estuaries or even in the ocean at this point we don't know how real that promise is what we need to do is to test it by actually having pilots built and then monitoring them carefully and adapting to see how well they perform to provide the benefit of power generation while also protecting the local ecosystem and yes m i agree that canals and other pressurized facilities should be examined for retrofits as well to install these turbaned so as to extract the maximum value from the water that is deliberate other purposes in some i believe that time is of the essence for us to improve our hydro power policy so that hydro power continues to provide the multiple benefits it does today and i thank you thank you for your testimony and it's a really very much in tune with what we're hoping to find is different assistance to be able to address global warming climate change whatever you want to call it and the increasing demand and also help the power group speed able to do owned utility headquartered in spokane washington that provides electric and natural gas service to approximately four hundred eighty thousand customers in eastern washington northern idaho and oregon our service territory includes much of congresswoman mcmorris rodgers district were greatly appreciative of her champion work on behalf of hydro power and the communities we serve hydra powers of vista's largest electric resource comprising over half our generating capacity hydropower resources are licensed by the federal energy regulatory why inten which is fueled by would waste we recently announced the planned development of a wind generation facility also in congresswoman mcmorris rogers district our investments in renewable energy along with our leading demand side management programs make a vista's carbon footprint very low in comparison to other electric utilities throughout the united states hydro power provides extensive economic environmental and reliability benefits it's the largest single renewable electric resource in the united states providing approximately nine percent of total u s summer capacity hydropower as a mission free especially significant at a time in which we are seeking to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in addition the hydro power industry has actively addressed environmental concerns as we just heard through their licensing process and other regulatory processes and by employing innovative technologies hydropower also enhances the reliability of electric system in addition to being a highly reliable power source in its own right hydro power firms other intermittent renewable resources such as wind and solar power and we know that hydro power will be called upon more and more in the future to enable these alternative resources the conventional wisdom is that hydro power has little growth potential in the future this isn't the case while the opportunities for building large new conventional hydro power projects are limited there is significant potential to add capacity at existing facilities through upgrades as well as through the addition of pumped storage facilities pump storage facilities take advantage of demand and cost differentials to in effect store energy there are also opportunities to incorporate electrical generation non power dams as well as for entirely new small hydro power facilities moreover substantial new hydro power resources are available through innovative hydro kinetic technologies that will tap the energy of river title and ocean currents firk statistics indicate active license applications for over thirteen hundred megawatts of new conventional and pumped storage hydro power and over thirty two hundred megawatts of additional capacity are in the pre filing stage it for more than six thousand additional megawatts of hydro kinetic capacity are also in the pre filing stage while not all projects in the pre filing stage at third will mature into applications these figures demonstrate the tremendous interest in new hydro power development for vista the most important thing congress can do at this time is to secure long term extension expansion of the protective production tax credit for incremental hydropower that was and acted by congress as part of the energy policy act of two thousand and five based in part on obtaining p t c half credits a point nine cents per kilowatt hour of this to embark on a series of upgrades to its existing hydro power dams adding seven hundred seven sorry megawatts of capacity to date with approximately thirty six more megawatts available from future further upgrades because of the long lead time associated with replacing turbans it's essential that congress renew the p t c for an extended period along with the counterpart counterpart crab program that supports renewable investments by municipal and cooperative utilities of us all also strongly supports the agreement recently reached by the n h a n environmental groups to support the expansion and application of the p t c encrypt program to the development of power at dams that currently do not generate electricity climate change legislation may well become the biggest policy driver impact impacting future energy investments including investment decisions regarding hydro power it's important th investments made be rewarded rather than penalize to any cap and trade legislation adopted by congress therefore vista urged congress to allocate any admission standard allowances to utilities based on their electricity output or load served not based on historic greenhouse gas shin's finally federal support for hydro power research and development has been relatively minimal for many years robust r and d developments and hydro power are essential if we are to tap the full potential of innovative hydro power solutions in h d n a sorry vista strongly supports n h s efforts to expand this funding and closing of this to deeply appreciate this opportunity to testify and commence a subcommittee for its leadership on the important issue of the contribution of hydro power to our nation's energy future thank you mr howard and i'm hoping that the senate does keep that provision does not delete it so that you do have some support thank you my name is jim called arts and general manager of public utility district number two a great candy i appreciate the opportunity to testify about this very important subject and would like especially to recognize ranking member mcmorris rogers for inviting me to participate today i would also like to take a minute and think the previous panels for their comments and statements they've made regarding how to do energy grant p u d s a consumer of utility that serves a rural predominantly agriculture population in central washington state hydro power irrigation canal hydro power and wind power compromise our total electric generation capacity of over two thousand megawatts my message today is simple there is tremendous untapped emission free hydroelectric generation potential in the united states too often hydro power is overlooked or taken for granted this is an unfortunate oversight because hydro power which does not generate any greenhouse gas emissions is a domestic resource that deserves more attention as part of the nation's renewable energy future and i too know one congress passed the first water power act enabling hydro power to make extraordinary contribution instore nation's economy and security with congressional assistance hydropower  ninety million tons of avoiding greenhouse gas emissions in the u s per year yet there is more hydro power that can be readily developed according to the electric power research institute the united states has the potential to develop an additional ten thousand megawatts from new small hydro capacity gains at existing hydro sites a new generation facilities at existing dams by two thousand and twenty five let me repeat ten thousand megawatts of clean renewable hydro power without building a single large new dam this is enough renewable energy to serve washington d c baltimore maryland and richmond virginia combined and represents over twenty min twenty nine million tonnes of potential avoided greenhouse gas emissions per year keeping our  resources operating while also meeting today's important environmental standard represents a significant significant investment by utilities and consumers for example the northwest power and conservation council estimates that consumers in the pacific northwest have environmental interests have exceeded the ninety three percent fish revival standard for spring chinook salmon at our two hydro projects on the columbia river in april of two thousand and eight the federal energy regulatory commission unanimously approved a new forty four year license to grant p u d r a new license is living proof of the potential energy gains available at existing dams across the country our capacity is increasing by one hundred thirty eight it's from one seven hundred fifty five to eight hundred ninety three ma lot as a result of new turban replacements at one of them down the cider capacity and efficiency improvements ensure that more than a thousand average make a lots of clean renewable hydro power along with substantial new natural resource protection measures measures continues for many years into the future i encourage congress to support expand policies to increase domestic hydro power capacity including research and development dollars i strongly support the fifty four million dollars funding request for that part of energy's hydro research and development program this request is based on their research development and deployment needs and opportunities and then a five by the electric power and research institute for our part grant county p d is already begun to optimize our  resources with more efficient generating equipment at one of them damn we're installing new advanced tighter turbans which show a three percent efficiency increase and improve fish protection all ten turbans and one of them dam will be replaced by the year two thousand and fourteen at a cost of  hundred fifty million dollars deal is hydropower r and d program continued contributed to the development of this new technology by the way of new technologies also include new environmental technologies which can translate into more energy out from the same amount of water flow for example grant p u g just completed the installation of a thirty five million dollar fish bypass system want them dam to improve fish revival while reducing still better fish pest passage technologies allow dam operators to potentially reduce non spill nigeriens bill through a dam the bottom line there is significant untapped emissions for a hydroelectric generation potential in the united states working together we can increase our nation's domestic clean energy portfolio and reduce our electric sector emissions by nearly ten percent madam chairwoman ramp ranking member mcmorris rodgers and members of the subcommittee thank you for your leadership in holding this important hearing on hydro power in regard to the role state renewable portfolio standard play in promoting new hydro power generation and i'm most interested in how oregon washington and california all treat conventional and new hydro power differently yes or well the state of washington is interesting because it doesn't include traditional hydro as a renewable resource which we think is fundamentally wrong and flawed grant was able to actually craft  agreement with the sponsors of the initiative to include incremental hydro but the interesting part is the grant other nonfederal projects and their efficiency and efficiency improvements are considered renewable whereas the federal projects are not considered renewable in their efficiency improvements so there are some flaws in the state of washington and its only new low impact hydro that is given credit is a renewable resource in the state of washington thank you i think that something this commission committee can chip committee can take up just in california the noble portfolio standard record his hydro power less than thirty megawatts of capacity as for noble but let me approach your question from a different angle the renewable portfolio standard as well as the related climate change legislation which governor schwarzenegger signed into law in two thousand and six have motivated our utilities as well as merchant generators to look for new renewables with a vigor that has never occurred before and so as of this month just to give one example this if it gas and electric company has procurement contracts for one thousand or more megawatts of solar thermal capacity that is approximately one fifth of its entire hydro power system it's proposing to have those contracts deliver power within two years two to five years and that's just one example of how the r p s in california is motivating our utilities to look at hydro power as well as other forms of renewable to pick the standards have every two years we do an integrated resource plan where we re evaluate future demands and how we're going to meet those and certainly in part response to the r p s standards we will be we have  indicated a higher degree of renewable development and evaluating the possibility for incremental improvements in hydro something we've been doing anyway it may end up spurning you know accelerating the rate of some projects as would in this respect they don't recognize large hydro small low some small low impact can qualify but actually on richard's point i thought to have a good side to this what we are what we are seeing out of all of the renewable portfolio standard is a whole lot of wind being developed in the northwest and the impacts of that on the hydro system are so are you know  becoming known but what we do know is for example in the federal system where there's there's already about four hundred megawatts of wind that they're integrating into that federal transmission system and part of this you know like we said and hydro matches up nicely to firm the wind but the capacity of the hydro system is getting more and more constrained and on the federal hydro system we  lost about an eighth of it on an average basis over a thousand average megawatts to constraints on the system for salmon and steelhead under the biological opinions which create which creates an even  tighter system so it's going to be a challenge moving forward because we're looking at the wind potentially doubling and then doubling again over the next ten to twenty years here as far as the amounts coming online thank you efficiency at existing facilities as well as the low head hydro and pump storage i just wanted to ask each one of you might if you might comment on your perspective as to what's available what kind of research is out there and the potential results of this research that is taking place clumpy a system over time to rehabilitate several of the projects and then the biggest one there was that grand coulee which does create a little more generation with with the new runners com and so even without additional head you know you can get a little more generation out of these older facilities and i go back to my testimony in a grant we're getting one hundred  of increase capacity just out of the want to project by doing turbaned upgrades alone we are about to go to bed for generators which will probably give us another about fifty to seventy megawatts of increased capacity with the generator upgrades so figure about two hundred megawatts of increased efficiency out of that project so as we're done there the private plan is to go downstream to do priest rapids and get the same kind of efficiency  gains out of the priest rapids project and if in the northwest you look at most hydro project there are the same vintage and we believe that there are those same kind of the fission seed gains that can be gained most of the hydroelectric projects not only in the northwest but basically the entire west coast which are of the same basic vantage i would just add were we focus our our evaluation as a research course on our r eight eight hydro developments  d prioritize those on where we can make gains in efficiency and upgrades and we are engaged in those actively right now and on both the cart fork river and spokane river but also at that you know i think one potential benefit of r and d dollars it may be to help identify opportunities that may not be on our radar screen but there may be a nexus with broader concerns about public safety and infrastructure many privately owned dams all across the country  some publicly owned that could potentially have power benefits and maybe achieve both power and public safety benefits simultaneously and then finally we certainly engage with folks in our service territory who we have other senator morton referenced the sheep creek project and others and we try to encourage those going opportunities that may may occur on private lands if they're available as they may also enhance system  reliability since the prior answer so focused on inland i'll answer with regard to ocean the mineral management service under the u s department of interior recently published a program at environmental impact statement which looked at the potential capacity as well as the potential impacts of ocean energy development the federal energy regulatory commission has begun to look at capacity and impacts in the context of individual proceedings and other federal agencies have other information they've developed over time with respect to other ocean ocean uses such as navigation buoys that may be a book about the hydro kinetic development on the ocean side i'd recommend to this subcommittee that you consider two things to help make this information usable first it would be helpful for the federal agencies to consolidate the information they already have in one place so that the information it is indeed available to guide the siting decisions and second since the marine environment is far less well understood than inland waters we do need to increase the r and d budget specifically for monitoring so that we can understand the impacts of any projects that are built very good madam chairman i'd like to ask unanimous consent to submit the northwest power and conservation council's two thousand and seven report on carbon dioxide footprint of the north west power system and the electric power research institutes assessment of water power potential and development needs into the hearing record without objection so ordered and i'd like to see a copy of it i can get briefed on some of these issues i don't need it now which i would like to have but i'm on my way to a flight so thank you reading material for me to sleep thank you very much and this is been a very interesting hearing and i would have been out of here about two o'clock right after the last votes but it is critical  and i'm hoping thank you all of you for your testimony to the prior panel i think we've got a lot of work ahead of us and i think my ranking member for bringing it to our attention because sometimes party politics gets in the way we're hoping that does not happen here and we'll continue to work on issues that are beneficial to our country rather than to our parties and i say that wholeheartedly because i think that we need to have not only us working together with your help but also the administration and the agencies that have that are charged with being able to help us see what is in the future and updating of creating and looking at new technologies is an excellent idea i think it's long overdue it's always a matter of money however given the fact that we're looking at drought that climate change rolling it's and many of the things that are going to be upon us if we're not to if we're not careful i think we need to begin to be cognizant of the need to invest in some of the r n d so that we can move forward to for our constituency and mr korwin the consolidation is something that i've always believed is  necessary and inherent in being able to do a good job but heaven forbid we ask our agencies to do that however we will try to be and i do that tongue in cheek because they work with us the only problem is sometimes we don't talk to each other and even on water twenty twenty five and now it's water for america i can continually ask for them to let us know what's going on so that we're priced and we don't spend our wheels asking agencies for the things they're already doing on another area and with that i think everybody you've been great our future our thanks to all of our witnesses for appearing before the subcommittee today your testimonies and expertise and it indeed been extremely in lightning and very helpful and under committee roof for h additional material for the record should be submitted within ten business days after the hearing that means embodying the audience and any of the families who want to submit additional paper for the record information please do so you have ten business days your cooperation as witnesses in replying