separate policy which they've instituted and and extensively revised over the last three four years sexual assault prevention risk it's both our service manner kinds of things about comparing combat to military service and it seems to me that if the d o d s articulating problems and articulating the specific required solutions to them that indicates a a is denying it after that actually affirmatively articulated that military service in general is online specific combat service because geez once we know that you were in a combat zone at a specific time then we can presume certain things about your service it seems to me that they're saying obviously well if you were just in the service then you weren't exposed necessarily to certain conditions and the d o d is saying in a separate policy yes and sings it conditions exist service wide and you have to do something about did you you didn't raise any of that no your honor to speak on where i think your petition points out i think the v a doesn't dispute that there's of widespread problem with mit and the services that correct yes your honor may not go to the details of this new policy and the like but as far as i can tell nobody's disputing the widespread existence of a because i ask because it seems to me that the secretary mistakenly understand circumstance retire son specific slice of service as opposed to all service and that seems to be a legal error in the reading of that that they understand that they do have the authority to do this kind of thing they've just declined to do so five in two thousand and eleven appeals process took an average of one thousand one hundred twenty three days from the time they they knocked the veteran filed her or his notice issuing guidance and instituting substantial number of training programs on these efforts are working and continue today that by working do you mean improving from a particular if that's true then there's research from the american civil liberties union and the service women's action network report entitled battle for benefits ok and that indicates of the same poll regional office for example granted twenty five point eight percent of m s t related p t s d claims during two thousand and twelve this will year and during that same time the l a regional office granted eighty eight point five percent of m s t related claims how do you explain the large inconsistency and grant rates and would you agree that it's due in part at least to the high degree of leeway that m ensure greater minnesota get the same type of training as california pardon me as minnesota get the same type of training as california yes i presume so it's nationwide training at what explains the distinction well i think that e my question as in looking at this is why shouldn't the m s t rates be higher at least in in cases of sexual assault when there also are at least relates to the questions i was asking your friends and i understand your point here but if it's established that m s t is prevalent throughout the circumstances wouldn't that statute allow a to make that determination and do precisely that say the circumstances of immensity are prevalent throughout and so we're not going to a style require corroborating evidence we're going to allow that's what i'm asking so hypothetically let's say and i think these facts are undisputed anyway but you get really really good studies that say particularly women in military service or subject to m s t at substantially higher rates than the general population this is where presumptions come from for be a for everything you know this p t s d agent orange all these other things but when they do the studies they don't find it specific to a certain type of combat related service or on a ship or on a sub it's a stick throughout and so looking at that the secretary says it is so prevalent and it this so much higher than the and the general public and the evidence is so hard to come by we're going to establish a person on sion and it's not really even a presumption if we will allow lay testimony alone the person's they have to demonstrate that they serve from p t s d for example that that that is correct is not that's right and that's the person with m s p has to suffer it has to demonstrate that they suffer from p t s d under any circumstances and th and so as the military changed that much i mean it's a basic training he still doesn't have an expectation of privacy do they say ok if well let's put it this way if a soldier a has declined to presume that everyone who serves in the military altered and instead promulgated very relaxed and broad ranging way to present testimony can corroborate yes yes hourly the v a does not dispute quoting that in the great majority of cases such incidents are not reported to military authorities and therefore such records do not exist is that nature of assessments and invites adjudicators to assess claims according to personal biases that was for that minnesota versus california question do you agree that the nature in which it please the court i'd like to address a few points that were brought up just in the past argument first petitioners are not asking this court implement the precise language of our rule but rather reminded back to the agency as the v a has clearly me the can i ask you this about that let's presume that the v a understand all these problems a and they they they agree that there is a higher rate of diversity in the military that out and that they have the legal authority to enact this looser evidence for pharma if they want to but they make the decision the better way to do it is through what they said through training it through various things  you know they may not have to provide independent evidence that they were specifically in combat but they have to get a service records or the like and show that the unit or the time or the place where they serve was in combat correct and petitioners agree with that role we do not want to re place those types and circumstances out of your years as dip i mean first would go to the entire media circus which i think is permissible but it is different isn't it no i disagree i the combat must resolve you know not reported but but but in examination it must resolve and in in p t s d a much higher amount of the time and combat related are there statistics on