hands with it you wash the top of the hospital bench with because it's applicable to patients with they were rare bacterial infection where the bacteria when they're exposed to excessively dry conditions board seized on paragraph seventy eight where in a flight of fancy m and says you could administer this systemically you could do it through the eyes you could do it through the nose you could do it through the m delivering a systemic medication by the mouth whether it's a solution or a pill or a tap letter of counsel is not administration to the oral cavity you're not delivering a functional ingredient to the does you no good in a topical disinfectant goes off to the air you never notice it now but if you put it in the mouth wouldn't it impact that ease of taking it orally or the taste or it wouldn't otherwise affect how it operates or i don't know what formulations they had in mind for oral administration you know there's no disclosure in that at all but typically no typically effervescen is provided for an aesthetic purpose pop pop his fist typically effervescence doesn't impact the speed of anything and if you're just swallowing it to ingest it there's no taste associated with the tiny amount of bike one night or president m so i don't think it's the same problem i don't think it's the same endeavor but if you do pick up a and you want to figure out what solution to make what buffer to use an intelligent very explicitly in paragraph nineteen use trips that's hardly a surprise the entire world uses strips more than any other physi them and says if you've got a particular purpose you can use tress and something happens you can use tress and more than something else it doesn't require  as mentioned above one or more buffers may be employed tro method mean that strips is a known buffer which is suitable for use as an alternative and this is what the board said was different than troops as an alternative other offering agents you've got to have troops present according to the teaching of amman there are twelve other classes of supplemental but haven't so you can use one or more certainly did get t important for the claims on appeal but is not important for them because hand in is after all what's disclosed and enabled is a topical disinfect how do you get to the combination of vaccine preparation which is what the alka seltzer was used for and there's no teaching that leads you there they only cited the epicenter for the us morality right not only not in the relevant act but it also teaches a way that's correct your honor and that's because you think that the language of paragraph nineteen is absolutely clear that's the language we just visited the fact that they include this is a government report and beautifully that included every big piece of data that they have and don't know what those three examples are intended improved but there's worse to come out because the most important unsubstantiated finding comes from the fact that even if one of skill in the art makes this wild chalk a combination ninety two to six ninety eight is that it very easy to measure it's complex and almost impossible to predict that's why nobody predicts the us peak which outside of the don't know an undergraduate student that would know that i don't know a graduate student that would know that it's complicated it's in the desperation you have to know the molar coefficient in order to know them molar co efficient you have to know what your delusion is the minute you change the dilution and that's right in the formula the minute you change that dilution you're lost you have to start all over again it's not easy it's very tryst or you can have trips and something else not the limit of am if it's not a solution your honor it doesn't concern us because then there's no one's mind with it all or what about since prefer something else there is no teaching to go to the other twelve and make your selection and even if you do that your honors even if you say forget tricks now you're left with that same unbelievable number of possibilities out of that four hundred seventy five million possibilities there is one that's going to give you effervescence and why do you want that one that's the question the board couldn't good afternoon may it please the court so first point out that the claim is very broad it's a very simple composition it doesn't even say oral composition it's just that a composition arising in effervescent combination of citric acid and sodium bicarbonate which are both to common components dissolved in water where in the composition has it wasn't allowed in the under three ten and it doesn't point to anything unique or special about that which is reviewed for substantial evidence and amman if it discloses that seventy eight that it is a topical it's not limited to a topical disinfected that it can be used for what applicant says is their summary of claimed subject matter we say that the it says that the composition can prevent to take a clean teeth reduce oral bacterial populations freshened breath and cons carrier for prescription medicine so i submit that there is substantial overlap between the disclosures of amman and what applicant has said is there and then are you is it your position that the claimant had to have some matter because a man is speaking to oral compositions but the fact that it just claims a composition i think i don't know that you would have to read into the oral come to claim the oral composition and we divorce the claim from the written description no we can't but i do think that in the specification there are you know broad disclosures about you know reducing bacterial population there's a it's not limited to a topical disinfectants on the second point about trysts as to drain and pointed out it's hard to understand how it can be  required when there are disclosures of the table that do not include tress and if we look at the claims on sixty three of amman they also do not claim trespass but again the presence of trust doesn't matter the claim  open ended and now it's as was mentioned at oral argument at the p t o the fact that you have or have don't have trysts in the combination is irrelevant i don't really completely understand that argument i understand the argument that there are some combinations or at least one that doesn't require trysts and doesn't have and has a buffer right but if it did require trace if if it only worked in the presen tress then or perhaps only work for the formal composition or the over the the the sort of limited extent to which it applies orally wouldn't that actually be a fair argument that it does combination the number of combinations and usually use is attacked when you know the only if a man was the only reference being used and then you might say ok yes there's too many listed here to meet the claim  meets the claim limitation and then if we look at ninety seven to the inventors declaration which i'm sad is that someone with an undergraduate degree in chemistry would have experience in the measurement of oz molalla he certainly is within the scale of one of ordinary skill in the art that they would do you respond to you from on the other side of the argument that he made is that that even if it's easy to measure it it's not easy to determine the appropriate value for use in the invention there's simply no evidence on the record that it's complicated beyond what one of ordinary skill in the art would be able to do that can you explain that further i mean that you don't see a difference between measuring a value and determining the appropriate value a man who teaches that you know out there's no example within that but if you cut trish out how do you go about preparing the solution of famine that's going to be given orally what makes stress out and you're just combining at will those twelve supplemental there's a word or a reason why they're called supplement those twelve supplemental buffers how on earth are you going to reach out to alka like a cold medication just like aspirin and we all know that all of those containers come with words used as directed why because bad things happen if you don't use them as  different from what your inventors attempting to accomplish but that doesn't mean that with respect to the ability to assess possible morality range for an oral composition that diluting out the south or it wouldn't have been obvious it would have been desired your honor if for some reason that would be possible but i would refer you as the final answer to that question to face six ninety two to six ninety eight and one round never solution on a small outfit had this been raised in the normal course of these seven years of prosecution this case was for we have submitted the evidence from the us p that says you can't do it you've got you make the solution a measured with a meter you start with a given combination is taught and alter it slightly test and alter soon a veritable forest of compositions meeting allow the requirement calculations you can you can measure solutions to drop but simply because you can measure a thousand solutions without undue skill or undue experimentation doesn't mean