construction of port is clearly and reasonable and white in the specifications of all of the intrinsic evidence and under this proper construction pelleas did not provide any evidence to show that the combination would render obvious this this or this claim these claims and in addition the combination that has been used by the board destroys play that you as the primary references principal of operation and finally the smith reference we were never given an opportunity to respond to cisco's claim chart when it was submitted at the very end of the case so let's go if we could please so they claim to claim one of the six seven  requires and i want to read it very carefully multiple five or column maters providing an input port for a multi wavelength optical signal and i probably of output nine doesn't show the fiber specifications it says the present invention provides a wavelength separating routing w s r apparatus and method now the box in figure nine that that's hash is the w s  bottom circulators yeah but it shows this it shows the claimed invention which is the box and it large in the context of a larger optical system the use of these switches reside in well i mean that's the only logical thing to to see if you look at all the figures it's a problem because we're not expert in this are no no no and i'm not this is in the provisional and in the non provisional also there a expert is the answer no no your honor i want to go to the specifications i ask you do you have expert testimony about this is the answer yes or no your honor it's the i got it it's the fourth paragraph it says the third architecture figure nine is also by directional but uses only one w s or unit circulators are situated are situated on all of the physical physical input output ports allowing for two way optical propagation  read the next and says this design has the restriction that each of the add drop ports the add drop and wavelengths must be the same so what we're talking about here is that the circula ors are the circles your honor that are shown below the arrows and what this invention if you look at all of the figures in the non provisional and all of the specifications of the patent describes the need to not use circulators because of their problems they add additional components and they provide attenuation issues this this claimed invention fundamentally changed the architecture of the of the internet and so the elimination of circulators was the whole purpose so figure nine is just showing the switch with the various ports in the context of a larger system which would use circulators but the word port as used in the specification is very is specific to the specification and not just a general use of the word port this is not a broad which is also a port but ports as used here is you have one input port and then the signals are directed with the two axis mirrors to a specific output point of the column mater takes the light in free space inside the switch and puts is that us as a farmer i mean you know you're standing up here in europe basically testify as to what this technology meet and that's a problem for us i don't know why if you thought that this was the case that you didn't put any expert testimony in each one you was your honor throughout the entire throughout the entire trial this is been our position we have not waived this we have not changed that's my question is whatever it's a question of we have to deal with the record and in order to understand the record we have to have guidance from someone skilled in the art when you're dealing with something as complicated as this is your honor the summary of the invention section as i said earlier states that the invention this is what the inventors contemplated they state this at the very beginning ok i'm sorry it's appendix two eighty two eighty two fifty four through fifty eight says again and this is this is what the inventors contemplated your honour's as their invention this is the very first sentence of the summary says the president vention we're not talking about  ts and by the way this is consistent throughout the entire specification in the figures the drawings everything is totally consistent and the present invention provides a wavelength separating routing apparatus that's the switch wavelength separating it separates the signals and then it routes and that's the switching function which employ an array of fiber collimate or so you see that in every one of the figures those of those round toups in the figures and a ray of fiber collimate are serving as an input port that's shown in every figure and probably of the output ports so that's what the inventors contemplated as their invention of that language does support your position but it so it shows a wavelength separation and routing right that's the switch now you have these functional lines there way will put one lamp to one of these or each of the individual light beams that are coming out in the individual here again you're asking us to trust you on where the column leaders are in the straw it seems to me they could be any number of places it doesn't show that at all to me either expert testimony or something and specifications that specifically say where you get this i'm not sure this this necessarily hurt you all that much of it doesn't show where the call there's a r l it does it your honor but but i mean you're over whether circulators are also located in the same place correct whether circulators are also part of figure nine and also whether there are circulators provided port are the round pieces that you see towards the bottom of the figure on forty nine forty five so you see the ad in the drops coming out and to your honor's quaint before i'm forty nine thirty three those are directly related in our in fact at the end drop points that are referred to in the paragraph describing you and your nine so that's the question is that says  and so you're saying that at the circulator can't just circulating what's coming in and out of the ports correct i mean it could be doing that that's not what it's doing and figure nine and that's actually a chief distinction between what disclosed and figure nine and the background section in the to challenge patents and that relates to circulators which is if you don't mind a point that i'd like to address that came with an opening if you look in the background section pattinson and three six eight there are a number of innocence names for the six seven eight there are a number of prior art configurations that are described only what capella has not done and either below or in this case is looked at what do those disclosures really have to do with circulators and if you look only i think three out so add would be and then also him put on figure nine out of an upper last forty nine three and put in the ads would be consistent with input ports the drop so be consistent with output ports in the claims including the six seven eight planes that recite the providing language what is your response to stern's contention that the whole point of this patent was to do away with the  lives that goes back to what i was saying about the capella support for that is the statements that are in the background section and the way the circulators are discussed in that section and have to do with using circulator elsewhere and the modem technology and the wavelength separating technology not in a sense of providing the input and output outside of the the components that are responsible for separating the switching and in fact one of those references that they don't address doesn't have a circulator at all in it so the notion that circulars are somehow or the elimination of them are somehow central to the invention just doesn't supported by the only i understand the problem i have with the reference is it doesn't answer the question at least that i think i'm asking i think i agree with you that you could have a circulator is a port that still doesn't get to the language about in i don't think so and i don't think that figure nine of so limited and doesn't actually know i or homeowners i mean then it would look like just like if that black box opened up and looked like exactly what's in the rest of the figures we're talking about words very clear that the col or poor and each are separate words that it would be exactly the same one that would mean the answer is yes because my hypothetical assumes that that's what the box shows if that's the case then example knowing doesn't help within the means of providing the ports my understanding that right on that's correct and i thought there were other figures here which showed calm meters providing signals to the ports to circulate  and both and figure five and in the discussion a figure five there's not reference that's been specifically made to a specific type of port and it doesn't have to be a  looking after so the figure itself is appendix to fifty seven was discouraging reams of circulators as well it's right or at least discouraging maybe maybe more that is what the their expert testify and there was were bottle evidence the board considered both of those things and  made a factual determination that that the evidence and supported a finding that actually when a person or skilling are would not make that assumption well i think is that right or did they say even if we accept his testimony that a person of ordinary skill would make that assumption it didn't rise to the level of a full disavowal that's but but in terms of dutch bikes original question is there any support other than what's in the patent and then figures itself out there is at least the testimony from their expert even if it the board didn't think it got them  that's that is correct does this focus the light right or do i misunderstand this correct i mean one on one side you're on or is free space so there has to be some i mean if you just have a solid meter which i assume is a actual physical in the path i'm talking about just joe yes your honor there are sports all through optical systems you have ports on your phone you have ports on your laptop everything that was a signal to go in or out of support that's just a general term in the technology we're talking about the ports used in the summary of the invention and in the claims of the should know that the three six eight patent does not incorporate the provisional it's not incorporated by reference and in the six seven eight patent though it is incorporated by reference board construed port was you had the two lenses and wave each right twelve a and twelve b then you had a fire between those lenses and then way outside the system you had a circular and they expanded out the definition they separated you're going back to the argument that about the definition of pork which i think we've all along told you not to do because we don't agree with you or at least i don't so it seems to me that if we look at this we have to figure out that this language somehow says multiple five or column majors with one of those column meters being at import and with multiple other ones being out the parts but it's not what it was and i just am struggling with whether the or interpretation providing is unreasonably broad and i don't see how it is if we look at this as we have a group of college majors meeting that right number it's not reasonable it's not a reasonable interpretation in this that's a possible interpretation i would agree with you there but they what they've done is what i would call the broadest possible interpretation but it's not reasonable because why it has there's nothing your honor i go back to forty nine thirty three were to strike figure nine and since the third architecture is also by directional it uses only one ws our unit circulators are situated and all of the physical