subject and certainly doesn't speak to the point of why we have one year instead of his next parsimony principle i'm sorry just especially true here because this is a private case fraud cases unlike drugs or violence aren't on this record why wasn't it perfectly appropriate knowing hadn't been detained i guess it was a fraud conviction and not a violent crime or drug offense and she had some time before she was from boarding the supervisor at least maybe should have been imposed so that would go to the ordinary case making finding statements for the record i think that's very true and then it's possible presumption that would be created under those circumstances we don't know many of the because it may be some time before she has written any of these things could have been done they're not it's not only i'm a bit troubled them but you do work the perspective of the sentence a commission says this is not the ordinary case something that should be done and then we have judges say that we and the that the recommendation from the probation officer which i think your client had access to it's all a bit hard to tell from from the record that recommended a term of it is like an affirmative defense to an argument if the government hasn't raised the issue i don't see the seven circuit other cases hurrying to find that there is a waiver there i see that they say a case like this the government like any party can wait waiver i think that's where we are if i had missed an argument i don't know that the government would be here championing my ability to raise something or do something different than you know what my omission or whatever had led me to poland of course the long arm of the united states law does not extend that far at least the supreme court tells us that we're not regulating the world extraterritoriality these days but  year period correct went out any supervision with no probation officer in charge the tip that's the term supervised release would begin to apply upon the defendants released from  airplane to poland she's she's removed so there is no federal probation officer paying any attention to what's going on in poland we don't have a polish division and my knowledge a probation officer doesn't enter anything on the record when supervision terminates in the ordinary case in the case of a defendant who has been removed from the country you know given that the term of supervised release is going to begin to apply when the defendant is released from the term of imprisonment imposed by the district court when the b o p releases her from that term of imprisonment that's when supervision is going to begin and it will terminate in two years from that date saying that a term of supervised release ordinarily should not be imposed in the circumstances of the matter was not further argued after that but the fact that it was referenced in the defendant's sensing memorandum kind of regarding self centered reasonable less pro that argument is also been made and the argument is based on the imposition of supervised release running afoul of the parsimony principle it's it's that say that it didn't need you there referred to earlier versions of guidelines the guidelines now look for signs or something we should i mean if we think supervised release is really going to happen we need to take it seriously right so i'm the hypothesis that you know ice goes out of business or something else happens and she's serving supervised release i don't have routinely said that you sign a requirement is not necessarily necessarily included in the judgment of that and that's something that again can look at saying well maybe it wasn't required but maybe it should be now it sounds like the government is taking a position that if you live you know on the border between illinois and wisconsin you inadvertently drive your car down some country i hope the your office is getting the word out that the knowingly in the new guidelines because i don't know that the form used by the courts reflects that i don't know which was exactly at the pure form doesn't that it givens in those cases you don't need scienter and so we're not imposing scienter requirement the forms themselves highly variable the northern district has not included it ever in my experience like wisconsin has