agriculture and food systems today our discussion was prompted by the plans to put in place a gas pipeline from our gas systems is is in the process of getting public approval for an extension of of their gas pipelines and this raises all sorts of questions about affects on climate change our energy future agriculture agricultural lands and so we have a couple of guests here today organizations what your involvement has been with this and kind of work you do any three fifty vermont is a grassroots climate action plan decision based in burlington we  it that's what we've been working on but there's a direct connection between that and gas plan to get into later and so we've been working out and supporting the organizing around the gas and i think that the best thing that farmers can do is to get where they're producing their own energy so that they're independent of the whole fossil fuel system we know why work so hard to go and pay for your fuel when there is plenty of potentials to make your fuel on your own farm i was look at it originally from the alternative energy project and when i heard about vermont gas doing this build out of my god this is going to just really smash alternative energy big time and course still at the root went from where it was going to be over down through route seven and so a lot north fares appeared to where suddenly it's coming through heinsberg and monckton and next thing you know they did a route change and it comes right through my backyard so i've gone from where i have issues with it on the few issues or where i have issues it going through farmland and through my own property as well so i was just kind of a call to action you know it's just to provide a little baseline information so this project is a proposed a proposal to extend an existing pipeline up in northern vermont and run an extension i think it's forty some miles from coal chester to middlebury and this is called phase one of the project that's going to be about a one foot diameter pipe correct  put down on put down about three to five feet underground and the challenge here for communities and for gas for my gas systems is to find a route that is feasible and acceptable to the communities so that's called phase one and then there's a phase two of the project and that that will take it from middlebury down through cornwall ensure him and then underneath lake champlain to international paper where they want to hook to the federal pipeline system over new york side so there's no reference for sure as to whether it's going to be in albany early george or where so that route the development of that route whether or not the projects will go forward  will depend on the public service board here in vermont issuing a certificate of public good but that will not happen unless and until a route has been approved and that's a process that where there's a lot of public input so there are a lot of issues connected with this the route how it affects communities how it affects the land another concern is the source of the gas and he said that he knows this is going to be bringing gas over from the west and so they're just like stripping the land of the forest they take every single bit of vegetation off of it and create these giant open pit mines for fracking on the surface it looks a little bit better  thing for there's a fracking process where they get tar sands oil out as well for the deeper deposits on the surface you see a bunch of different sort of well heads around but under the surface it's making terrible devastation and in fact for the for the tar sands process they just revealed a leak that's happening in alberta that nobody knows this exact source of and nobody knows how to stop the oil leak that's happening in that in that same area where they're extracting the frack gas right now so there we have the beginning of the concerns where is this gas coming from how is it being produced and is it responsible decision on the part of vermont  communities and government to allow that gas to come here now can i just say one more well yes that is that is that you know besides the obvious the impact on the land what's the impact on the communities out there is tremendous these are mostly indigenous communities they have been hunting and fishing in the land for a long time and you know once you've stripped off all the vegetation and chased out all the wildlife from this this land that they just can't go on anymore and they're totally in violation of the treaties that canada signed with with those tribes but they're just going ahead and doing it anyway there's so much money at stake that they just pushing aside any considerations  extracting this gas and shipping it on climate change and the effects on climate change greenhouse gases and such but can you just talk a little bit about the carbon footprint of this gas and of in in the world and in vermont and that will lower our our carbon footprint but that's from a very narrow perspective it really is just looking at what happens when you burn this fuel so comparing number two heating oil to the natural gas when you burn it in fact there's about thirty percent less carbon emissions when you burn it but that doesn't look at the whole lifecycle picture of of the extraction of transport of storage and everything that leads up to the point where it's actually coming into your into your home or in this room your vehicle or into whatever you're using it for and if you compare it that way fuel well natural gas is really from a life cycle point of view it's really worse than coal because i know the gas company says hey this is this is a responsible approach to our energy future and you're pointing out if you look at the entire view if you a if you do the proper accounting right you'll find out that it's not at all a plus in that regard but what my gas has been able to do is that they say we're a distribution company and it's cleaner at the burner you know so they're they're advertising the good part of it they don't want to bring along any of that bad bag bag oh we're not really drilling for you know you have to be responsible for what they're doing and vermont gas is owned by guys metro a canadian company which in turn is owned by own over thirty percent of part of the pipeline network the transportation network that extent brings the tar sands oil you know to various places to ship it out and they were the ones that were responsible for the about but you know when you when you start looking at the corporate network there's it's hard to to pluck one strain without having the whole thing yes that's the nature of our global as like you talk about energy independence and from on here we have one corporation that owns or gas in our electric utilities and the transportation lines and you know now wanting to expand the pipelines how is that independent you know that's total dependency yes you know you can't be any more hooked up than having a pipe an electrical line bringing everything to you and i think it's an interesting observation that a couple years ago the legislature banned fracking in vermont it was an easy decision we don't have any freckle deposits i guess but yet but at the yeah but  at the same time we feel it's ok to have this wholesale frightening and very irresponsible environmental practices someplace else as long as we get the gas at the other end so and we do have some options on gas leaks and gas leases in the state makin they think it was seventy two or three they came through and checked for gas and already only on the big old bumper trucks came right down route seven doing the seismic tests and they did a lot of leases and down through shoreham and corn on down in that direction and a lot of the farmers signed on to say is oh it's free money you know and at the time they said oh there's gas deposits there but it's not economically feasible to go after it well in the seventy's they were saying the same thing endemic you know i mean they got a lot bigger play there i mean our gas is very spotty but you know there's still the potential eventually if you get to the point where the price of the gas can be enough to make it worthwhile there could be extraction here well i mean being the same thing was true of tar sands they've known about those parts of the i guess since the one thousand blue how do we get it out yet like how do we get it out how do we make it profitable and it wasn't until really the eighty's and ninet where even became feasible to think about the price was high enough just like you were saying the price started getting up high enough and the technology was getting better so you know this this giant  the businesses along the route communities homeowners who are looking forward to this and and viewing it as a way to get a cheaper fuel for heating their homes and and such and so how do you respond to to those involved that is to say in north america there's a lot of gas it's currently available but the price has been really volatile and if you follow the pricing over the over the years there's no reason to think that the level of the current price is going to stay the same as soon as that pipeline is in and soon as people are of a step to gas as soon as there's no alternative that that that price is going to go up and you know and there's there's that sort of third bottom  line question too it's like what is the price what's the price that we're paying for this gas in terms of in terms of the fracking in terms of the impact on the people where at the other end of the pipeline and what's the impact on the earth as a whole i mean vermont has a nice little thing going here a clean and fracking and the right suzanne of all energy and where you know we've got this this comprehensive energy plan where we're going to get ninety percent of  renewable so called renewable energy by two thousand and fifty but you know we're part of a global system we're not certain we're not isolated from from the rest of the world and if we're destroying the earth over there it's not going to be different over if there is there is a short term there is a potential short term gain i mean there's no denying the you know if you look at your bill this month and you look at your bill the next month twenty fucked up the natural gas for a little while your bill is going to be lower but i mean one of the problems in this country in general is that we do tend to think pretty short term reality and and it's time to start thinking longer term about what the impact is going to be both on your pocketbook and on on the planet and you don't even have to look that far at the price of a you know almost like right now still under four dollars the main bt use for natural gas before two thousand and eight it was fourteen dollars an eighty cents per million b t u s i mean that was only a few years ago it was four times the price  issue is how will this pipeline affect our agricultural lands will the soils be protected from an organic from in terms of certified organic agriculture where there are standards that farmers need to sort of live by and if a pipeline company is coming through your property and digging up the land what effect does that have on the soil and how might that affect your status as a certified producer so you've been that you're focus on the land so tell us a little bit about how you see that the problems and the concerns you have about that really on the ground kind of oil concern a lot of that is you know just the attitude that they have you know as they you know not everybody is connected to the land you know some people are and some people are it doesn't make you a good person or a bad person it's just the way you look at things and the gas people just don't seem to have that connection at all you know it's just rocks and dirt you know grass seed on it'll be fine but i see this having a lot of effect on the soil you know you're trying to spend when you're doing it organically you know you're trying to nurture your soil and give a good soil and have you know grow your soil so your growth to your will take care you and i mean when you do this kind of damage and destruction you're going to set back the soil by years you know i mean we called the extension service and you talk to heather durbin said you know what do you think this is going to do and she said well you know and we center the weights of the of the equipment that we're going to go across and the amount of impact it was going to have and she says with your class heavy clay soils it's probably going to set you back ten years yeah easily  if it ever recovers so the company is able to if there's a certificate certificate of public good issue they can come in and sort of take the land by eminent domain they're going to have to and with some compensation but do not get in the compensation enough for destroying the soils and there's a corridor that they will have control over not only during the construction but a life but for eternity for eternity essentially and they'll have the opportunity to come in not just during the construction phase but to do any kind of maintenance if there are leaks if they need to put in a twenty four inch pipe instead of it will rip it up put in another one and so i know one concern we've had is ok so if you hold their hand during the construction process and make sure that they're doing it right what's who's to say and what's to say that when they come in in the future that same kind of care and and sort of supervision will be there and how they supervise it do i mean we we had a meeting with from our gas and one of our other neighbors and you know like what's going on how are you dealing with this and we said how are you going to monitor this pipeline to make sure there's not an issue with it they say well we kept the pressure at the at the main valve and we check it to gauge valves and if there's a las you know we go out and see what's going on and we walk the thing we at least once a month and we fly over it and if you says well this is a gas you know you're not going to see guys are kind of had the ground where you're looking for they say well we're looking for the vegetation to turn yellow and then we hone in on where there's a problem where you know it's there yeah but the time you're vegetation is turned yellow and of course this is very mom you know we've got a few months where everything's darman so if there's a leak out there under the snow you know that's going to go undetected and organic farms are certified and they need to maintain an organic system plan how you treat the soil how will you address concerns how you maintain those soils and build them you know in a process of continuous improvement and this comes in and just sort of like puts a woman through the land exactly and we've been telling them you are going to have to really step up if these if this pipeline comes across certified organic land or land that may become certified mean and there's a lot of organic land and lay and farmers who wish to become certified in your neck of the woods and how do you ensure that farmers will be able to comply with the organic system plan and those in the future who have a pipeline to their ground and want to become organic in the easements and in the contracts that the companies develop with landowners how will that process look how will what will the supervision level be like how will we be sure that they will respect the organic system plan and you know we've had a few ideas about what we would like to see in terms of easement so within so you know the the connection here to our energy future i guess we've talked about this earlier i mean we put a pipeline in it has a life of decades and we have made we have poured investment into a fossil fuel energy system and it just seems that it to the extent that we invest in that and put all our eggs in that basket we start to ignore or not have enough investment left over for alternative energy and an energy future that's more responsible in terms of greenhouse gases and climate change of well you know of course even you know even if you accept the faulty premise that gas is better for the environment than oil that's really not true but even if you accept that we're still locking ourselves into a fossil fuel future and not not looking at alternatives not looking at at efficiency not looking at reducing demand not looking at at trying to find low impact renewable energy sources you know once that money is invested once the society as a whole is investing in in in an infrastructure whether it's the keystone x l pipeline in the midwest whether it's you know this energy east pipeline that they're talking about in canada or the or the natural gas pipeline that commitment is made that is the decision not just by the company to do that but it's a decision i decided to go in that forward and issue a certificate of public goods so what actions can people take now what it what what is being done you mentioned rising tide i know they have a web page here they have a web page they're trying to gain momentum and get people bringing up the local people's concerns and they really need to hear from more people a lot of people that you know this isn't the way to go so there are there are people who can formally intervene and participate in the public service board process and then public public can always send in common use and send in commissary are to intervene you have to be directly impacted his and they decide whether or not your interests are such that knew you would be approved doesn't have to be in but anyone can get on the public service board page and submit a comment that not this if it is but you know it's not as people in the northeast kingdom found when they were trying to oppose the industrial wind turbines in the last few years that the public service board process is and you know that doesn't have a lot of in you know where we really have i mean we certainly we certainly should be putting comments in and rising tide from on if you go to their website or the stop from on gas website you know you can you can sign a petition you can you can send a postcard you can register your comment and that's a really good thing to do but we also need to be putting pressure on the legislature and on the public service department which is supposed to be representing the public in this process which is different from the public service board and and really get them to do a deeper analysis of the project you know they submitted testimony recently and you went down a group of us down to a demonstration at the public service department a few weeks ago because of it with a big rubber stamp you know because what they seem to be doing is rubber stamping this project and we offered him this rubber stamp and said here you know you might as well have this because that's what you're doing and and you know it was just a graphic demonstration of the fact that they're not doing the analysis that is really necessary to represent the public good in this process and you know they they they filed testimony were basically they said this doesn't have much impact you know and they weren't even doing a life cycle analysis of what what what the impact would be so the challenge right now is to get people informed educated and and to identify a way that they can become engaged here at this stage well thank you both very much for being here i think you know any time it's a continuing story we'll be continuing to to engage with it from in terms of representing our  farmers they need representation and you know we just have a we have an interest in the bigger picture as well and i know you you too will be this will be your life extending into months and years ahead but  thanks for all your good work and thanks for being here ok so this is dave rogers and thank you for watching and we'll be doing more of these chats in the future