visa status right now it's one which means well which means i'm that temporary visas i mean walker in this country but i'm you know trying to get a green card so there are several parallel cases i mean at least two  panel you're currently authorized to act before the patent office on behalf of the clients of your your current law firm is that right that's correct and now that it is your relationship with your current law firm such that you're allowed to freelance  not put this particular one but in the previous one yes so the the question is is it yes right now your authority by your law firm is limited and you couldn't do anything more than the p p l has already renewable and at the same time there's a pending green complication and you know that there's a sense of that when complication is actually come to engine upon the success of my business you know if i can't employ people with my law firm i can't present to the that the provision that i thought we had been talking about is one that says any alien who is not an attorney setter that right what's the provision for an alien who is an attorney getting registration simply no such provision you know if you are an alyan no matter states temporarily literally is the only difference between limited rights recognition and registration that under limited recognition you're confined to working for a particular employer  whereas in registration you can work for whomever you want to that score so so basically then to give you a simple example here the operation of any business we may require multiple governmental accesses for example like a restaurant if you run a restaurant you need a lot of graphic i mean licenses or some like a cleaners license a phyliss sometimes a liquor license but can you take away the cleanest license when the restaurant does not comply with fire license regulations there's a continuation of the immigration status that would have loudly to free lance was terminated because you couldn't show to the immigration service that you had  because i can only present my crime here in this court without having to show there are circuits that you know i'm allowed to practice i'm allowed to be employed in this country the agency has the authority to interpret its own rules and expertise i'm confused it seems to me there are two possible claims here one is of the agencies misinterprets regulation that seems to me a very hard road right if they have a lot of discretion under cleveland baseball and other cases about how to interpret the regulations another alternative challenge here seems to me that you're making is that the application of the regulation under these circumstances is arbitrary and capricious and that really seems to around the world to register people to pan obviously if you can pass a bar so are you saying that based on reciprocity you would be able to practice before the people know that that wasn't my kind because i haven't be recognized to practice in taiwan yet  i just read i want to answer your question first if an alien becomes an attorney there's a provision eleven point six at which is exactly parallel to eleven point six the terms of what the aliens immigration status is  whether he's an attorney or patent agent the rules are basically the same the decisions of the p t o and the district court here should be affirmed basically because they're exactly on point with th that case to be one that is in effect an upside down version of this where the court said there's an immigration policy that says you may not work here or for very long and the p t o concluded and this court said it was permissible to conclude that granting registration would undermine the immigration policy as i understand what's going on here it's you know affect the opposite of that you're saying the immigration rule the visa says you can only work for a certain number of years and if we grant registration that will undermine our policy p t o policy about what a registered agent has to be capable of  doing which seems to me as i say something like an upside down version of lack of r and i should say not the most natural interpretation of the language of one of eleven point six well i think i think it's going  dr chang here it's just a temporal issue it's not how we can work or but you're right it does go both ways because it can i just i mean if the immigration if the visa limit says you can't work two different regimes in terms of how it registers people so it made his position may seem consistent with eleven point six percent doubtful registration but we have a completely different avenue for people who are temporarily in eleven point nine lasts only two years in the proceedings the prosecution before the p t o typically takes longer than two years so he might not be able to finish it and that would be a detriment to his client is that exactly your honor because we have an obligation to protect the public and as this court is well aware of the penalties for not meeting a certain filing deadline or paying a maintenance it can be quite draconian and so what the p p o is saying the person a doctor chang situation as you can practice before the office and effectively you have to philly it with a permanent practitioner who can have his number and contact information in the file as it is a as i understand it there's nothing problematic about a citizen register that going to live abroad and doing his is representation work from wherever that's correct i mean if you're a united states citizen you're fully registered and you live abroad for a certain period of time you may continue to be registered and that happens i think dr chang the scots have a deficit brief nontrivial in that three percent of the time so we're talking about maybe a thousand register practitioners out of you know over fifty thousand and you know difference between him and that person is that right now that person could continue the representation while abroad but dr jane can't do that because she hasn't been registered as a patent agent in taiwan is that correct well that's right because there are only certain circumstances when foreign nationals living outside the united states can still practice supposed to have been registered in taiwan suppose it were registered in taiwan and cheap reciprocity would would he then be able to be registered as a patent agent in this country because he could begin his  prosecution while here and continue with from taiwan the way an american citizen living abroad can continue and he i don't think you would be fully register but he would be entitled the practice of the office under the register reciprocity provision he can prosecute applications on behalf of nationals of taiwan so wouldn't be totally open and type of registration right there represent anyone for any purpose and i just clarify something i had thought that this reciprocity provision did not was not limited to individuals who in fact had the home countries license it's already but rather was that applied if to take this example if taiwan was a country that substantially grants reciprocity then the provision applies so it doesn't actually matter that he has not in fact got the taiwanese representation if taiwan is a country that would provide the rest of the reciprocal privileges that's not the i mean that's the way i see this language seems to me to be written well to be honest your honor that provision isn't directly an issue in the case because it's not what dr chang is seeking but my understanding of the reciprocity provision is if he were living in taiwan and if you were registered before the taiwan patent office and if he wanted to practice here and they allowed similarly mean that that if in fact mr cain were them leave this country even if he was authorized to practice before the the novice in taiwan what he would he would not be able to continue to represent individuals provisions are and as it stands right now they are the only countries could get substantially reciprocal privilege of sue us practitioners and we in turn give that to canadian practitioners i also wanted to mention something your honor that judge judged i clashed on two which is what is a doctor chang's current immigration status and i think the history of this case demonstrates the propriety of the us b p s approach dr chang already has been in the u under four different employment authorisations each with different conditions so it's much more appropriate that dr chang is recognized under eleven point nine which is a very dynamic provision it's very flexible provision for dr basically he can come to the u s and say you know this visas expired now i'm working for this firm for this period of time and he received a letter saying you have your limited recognition that basically mirror says visa status but it's the correct the only difference little bit more specific if his visa for example says he can work in a law firm authentic and for two years then are limited recognition letter says you can work prosecute application of the law for months and again you know until your visa expires but there's no other difference continue so long as that limited recognition continues and it's limited to the clients of those respective firms as well correct correct and because that's the visa limitations are pretty strict as well i mean it's  says he can only act as a than at the time a technical agent on behalf of us and again so then we just mirror what u s c i s us and that i think that's basically at bottom what this case comes down to which is that you know dr chang is is engaging in an effort to present various opportunities where he may be able to change the status from a temperature permanent status before a different government agency and that's you know that's something that he can pursue and if and when his circumstances change he can come back to us and we can fully register him or we can continue to extend his limited recognition as appropriate whatever's employment status is but we can't jump ahead of this other government agency and say ok well you have completely unrestricted access to prosecute pan applications for the office for an unlimited period of time when he's still here temporarily he's still just working at this time for the one ma firm we can't get out this other government agency are there any other circumstances in which you seek to determine whether someone who is a patent applicant is in it for the long haul in other words it's somebody who's eighty eight years old let's reply to the before the patent office to make them certify that they'll continue to practice for a minimum of four years saves to make sure that the average at application that might be filed would be completed or you make them say that they'll be associated with another lawyer for that purpose your honor i'm not aware of another situation like that but i am aware that we have a massive role of practitioners for the office and where you are engaging in regular efforts annually to update our roles make sure the people are still practicing make sure they're not practicing that they are removed from the roles and it's you know it's a it's administrative lee burden some of the tasks just to maintain the permanently register roles so you can imagine if you added another ten twenty thirty thousand people who are coming in and out of the country for a year or two to that permanent lest it would overwhelm the offices what it's currently doing just to maintain its fully register practitioner so you know whether dr chang yeah your point is well taken i mean whether dr chang is a civilian or not it's really the point is that he's here temporarily and so that's why he's not a good fit with the permanently register practitioner in taiwan but there's always a property between or agreement between the two countries and you know a taiwanese registered an attorney can you know practice before that an opportunistic ok ok so i think the point i'm  they're really saying is we're worried about the interests of clients we are represented before the patent office and if you are only here for two years you can't complete the representation and if you're pretty lancing and not associated with