yes all right welcome to the december thirteenth planning commission meeting any amendments to the agenda so i've just added on other business a temporary you all right so public comment this is a chance for any members in the audience to address the commission on any items that either are not on the agenda or either of the items on the consent agenda also an opportunity for commissioners if you have any questions or items on the consenting yes ma'am done for yourself for the record please i'm really green on this so you guys have to help me but my main question is why is this town broken into districts specifically agricultural industrial residential conservation when there's twenty two thousand people in the zone right and it's just a way for me nissa power is to manage growth in a way that makes sense so you have certain uses and certain districts that are compatible uses and so that we don't have industrial parks in our agricultural fields or nuclear power plants in our residential neighborhoods and you just got split out things in terms of where they make the most sense and and that's where you get to district and it's the same in every town really not true in most towns don't have just one single objectives all towns are under state statute or fall under a town plan which is the overriding document that sets the vision for the town and your zoning  and subdivision regulations are just a manifestation of the goals contained in that town plan part of which is growth but dana could probably talk for hours on town plans but in statutorily we have to mend those town plans every five years now used to be eight oh good it's getting it's getting longer and longer which is better used to be a lot less  our next amendment is yet and we're a ways out i mean if you want to learn about the town of essex the best place to go is to start with the town the currently adopted town plan which is on our community development website on essex dot org and that lays out the vision for the town and then everything kind of falls flows from there but if you have ideas for changes to town plans certainly and they'll go in the list ok so is residential my husband finds that people even thinking about carrying a gun in that area is there and in their mind they may not be coming from essex are essex people are wonderful they're great guys i know some of the hunters they're nice coaching is getting balls with to tom's point if you want changes get involved with the community process and advocate for those because that's how changes happen and the other public comment changes or corrections i won't do the page by page you may have any changes they wan correct hearing on all those in favor i o's extensions motion carries thank you all right  now who's leading the e t c discussion call me or email me later and then we'll talk about maybe the right approach and ramifications of her problems for the party i'm going to turn this over to the manager's office tomorrow because of it just wasn't guys have been having part of you this is basically the chapter for element that's described in that plan and i'll preface tonight's conversation to say we had a work session last week  relates to recreation and open space and one of the big ones is the recognition in the form of these code that open space can take a variety of different forms and types and that open spaces not open space so in traditional zoning and then traditional land of elbe and oftentimes open spaces always the leftover piece of land the developer could figure out what to do with or it's the you know it's the edge of the property that's also the buffer zone it's usually never it's not given a lot of form usually it's kind of the run that land and obviously that doesn't really work when you start to think about a place in a more dense environment and a more thoughtfully constructed environment like we are talking about in the d c so one of the big principles that the puny community gauger process last year and obviously the master plan draft masterplan has tried to instill is this idea that open space is available you know th open spaces are going to varied but they're going to have some forms they are not quite as from earlier with potentially as all gullah i want to talk a little about that tonight the other thing i want to talk about is the importance of working with the community to identify really important critical needs for recreation open space and making sure that those community needs are reflected in the math and ultimately the master plan as it gets finalized for sure but also potentially in the code so that things line up so that if you identify as a community that there's an underserved park in need within the e t c that we allow for or maybe more important procrit lee seek actively seek to instill the need for park in some of these heart districts so that they can provide that benefit to the committee in the long run the third thing i think it's important to touch on tonight will be this idea that openly when you're when you're developing in the in the form based code and you're required to do open uganda may have various forms that you can apply but there also could be a mechanism by which the developer pays a fee so that they can contribute to a community investment in open space or recreation that may be more beneficial and i definitely think i've talking with allie last last week it was there may be some opportunities that that really would be interesting to explore with the town because i think as we'll see tonight c itself is pretty under served in this part of essex is pretty under served recreational perspective so again if we can get things to line up and then the fourth thing i think that we really want to just touch on is this this notion of  know and this will have to get into in the code is when you guys are asking for open space you know not only will the formation necessarily be different than you're used to but us lee how much open space you should be demanding in portions of the e t c in balance with the fact you want them to develop more densely and more intensively so what you'd normally you know normal under normal quote normal develop land at all they might be seeking thirty percent open space for example well those numbers may not really work well in some of the districts we're talking about because that's just taking too much land potentially doing too much land out of dense residential mixed use development so good to see walks with a chair well i would just say in addition and of alluded to it is are those areas public or are they privately managed to maintain your examples of both of those i think within essex and within the county for sure right right so just before we get into that it's not be like yeah it's obviously accessible and that seems like a be a nice place you can go and have a conversation and but is there a way to steer the open space toward that sort of form for asses right next to the world yeah absolutely and again it depends on i think the district by district we will need to look at that with really reasonable and appropriate i think within the green belt though i think one thing working through the green belt advantages it's why and yes there are you know there is traffic on route fifty but it's not all the time and so terms of the the recreational function of this obviously it's serving right now is kind of a linear park because there is a path through the present landscaping and that probably that's not going to disappear that certainly would continue the question on the other side of fifty would be do we kind of echo that or do we had some additional survey outdoorsy you know maybe so she would uses in that in that area so if some of these used to turn into restaurants or or gathering sponsor people maybe there is a little spot where people can park themselves and eventually if transportation corridor for walking or biking it's probably even nicer to have a little more separation from the road a little more landscaping going to be right on route fifty mm so it's not only serving this park and recreation function but also a transportation function yeah i think the making lemonade out of lemons or well you know that's the reality i think this the decision to allow to create a green belt there actually get some distance you could have argued you know you could argue either way you want to bring the belief right on fifteen slaughter body down and turn it into more of a downtown whole the whole area for functions that way and that you get this the provisions for for open space types of recreational pipes that actually both you know take that passive recreational piece path piece as well as maybe offer up some chances for those in the pocket parks where the next one was number two this is a large scale green so we've talked with staff and peter is you know making a step in that direction no but is it actually advancing the discussion around actually having a larger green space that can be related to some of the surrounding uses be used for events and activities yes so i think you know whether it be by controlling or a number combination of things like it's kind of happening so that's actually a good thing but it is really to me the idea in this part of the agency is some centuries old gathering space that actually modifications to that the grid to be probably a little bit better connected to the architecture so there's a more you know inflating relationship between the buildings and the screen but i think as a as a beachhead of understanding it's a good outcome th happening so that's good but that's that's come part of the conversation that we have number three is the potential park and recreation area so we had at the end of this this green space here is is it is again this is a situation where there may be public and private interests but there may be some potential for some green space there that would serve a broader community function rather than just a family land or a neighborhood function and that's one of the things you see a lot of the  subdivisions that have been done they have green they have open space parcels within the with the division but they're not necessarily connected to each other and they're not necessarily publicly accessible and i think one of the goals of this plan would be to try to find those areas where maybe we can work with within the a joint construct to develop some of these i mean some open spaces public spaces that are actually more accessible to people and functions on passes so this is an area where it would be good for all team to sort of look and say well what could that do maybe it is just a little playground area maybe it is a little on the little field or something like that and all the key there would be to make sure it's connected well you know there's there's the sidewalk and activity and oh that's in the capit a connection to the mall to use trail that kind of thing which would be an interesting connection so one of the things is this plane kind of dovetails with the connectivity plan a lot of ways in terms of you want real connections but they shouldn't have some recreational function maybe i'm just a trail so i trail head a little there number five would be that the town forest lands so there's there's a bunch of you know there's a bunch of area here near sea broken and such that would you know that could be a really useful part and we've  actually talked about that location before with you maybe earlier last year on there still some discussion around what that actually means but again terms of its adjacency the town of forest it's really good in there that we talked about the sort of looping wreck path that might go around the e t c it could connect to that so it could be an interesting recreational opportunity that that lets folks from the e t c proper walk to it or bike to it pretty conveniently and is adjacent to the town for soja recreational needs  six is the potential trail head so one of the things that we explored in the process is a couple properties here where they bought fifteen and there may be something there actually some plant looks like it's pulled way that might be able to but they're still a trail head there are a number of these properties that if you sort of play the long game and look at them it's probably likely over the next you know ten or fifteen years they probably go some ways and so those would be the opportunities to work with the potential winners and can you give us a fifty fo these things kind of converge so you'd actually have a good crossing point to fifteen that you could accompany bicycle in pedestrian accessibility but then dovetail with potential connections up north and south through town for a switch then you start getting into little bit different this is kind of the pump the private open space recreation piece but you know as you'll see if we talk about some of the open space type talk about our our community oriented not just on a publicly oriented but sort of development oriented open a more diverse set of forms like community gardens as it gives a consistently is a reasonable open space time and again that adds value to those developments and makes it a little bit more attractive as a place to live changes the form a little bit gives you a little bit more value on fifty has been really there is the building that's there on the corner with you has the you have the retail on the bottom floor for a long time and that building is very close yeah very close you know to probably has a lot of issues with everybody that little area right near the public works office is really kind of mass just in terms of circulation and access to some of those public spaces and so i get as a as a vision intentionally looking at that either the remov structure or the reconstruction of the area to allow for better connectivity of that park to the street itself to fifty itself is kind of the idea so that would be nice if that green space actually had some relationship to them today or they could actually  from visibility and then obviously that one of the things we looked at was in the in and around the library and the green there that exists probably some just some basic improvements nothing big and these are get these are things that we would probably be done to repair time but just the integration of those areas is part of it's part of an open space strategy of making sure that there's an outer gathering space that's suitable for that there's a lot going on in that little years so those are kind of some of the high points obviously doesn't cover all the potentiality but i think we're trying to identify some key things that the community want to think about that are really you know hey let's do that so all of this is couched in the in exception of the town forest a few other little pockets of reparations really nothing going on in and around the d c so i think it is not a gun that's a put the pressure on the d c it is involved but i think there's  you know one of the things that we talk a lot about in the draft is that recreation and open space can be a really good way of sort of could help you to create police that actually desirable the event particularly when you're sort of allowing the yes will these things tighter do all these things taller build these things more densely but we want these outdoor spaces to actually function really well and provide some hopefully some community benefit and hopefully some big sea community benefits that everybody in that goes ahead in the zoning changes and then everybody else scrambles to catch up but i think the less that this planning process gets to the level that is all it would allow would give her a lot of flexibility to make that plan fit to really consider as designating those on your plan maps at some point again the other option is to require to have some regulatory standards this is a big job in space that may be privately provided or as part of a future subdivision or redevelopment  you know the perceptive says hart's cave there's a sauce gave them you can you can regulate very deeply if you do it's a program that is one thing as we move through this process of the we're going to be asking how do you feel about you know regulating these things but probably at the days well let's start recognizing that when you when you are offering up to or selecting within each district what's an appropriate type of open space these things can come they can come various forms and these forms can be wildly different then than what people may be accustomed to and also get into this whole public private piece so there may be places within the e t c where he wants open space recreational asses that are worth investing in and i don't know which type that would be of probably not some of these more overt forms but probably some of them are quite forms and if that's the case you can be very clear with you know where that goes you can be you can be very clear as to the size that needs to be you can be very clear as to the attention of that so that you can be very prescriptive about that and and you can also define you know internally define what the relationship between you and the developers might be so that maybe a situation where the the property itself the developer provides the property for this to happen in the town picks up the responsibility for the park and all that or it could be a situation where the developers contributing to something that's offsite get a deal but is defined by size they often army you have typically are yeah yeah and then again going back down to some of the less well you know to support recreational that when allie comes back with some of her wish list a lot of these will be on the table this is the kind of stuff that the community would generally want to sort of gravitate towards but i'm going back to the other one i think one of the things we would do would definitely want to is and they've been thinking about the mixed use core primarily in the mix you score the and these will be important now you know the concept of peter's provided right now is is kind of you know this without some of the architecture to actually create should you want it again to step in the right direction but i think this is the area where the a lot of these will probably tend to be privately focused but there could be some relationship between the town in the in the developer if it's appropriate and development remit to sort of provide some additional attributes for for example a lot of these places what you want to have is outdoor electrical you know outlets and outdoor water not having so if you're having a community event you have to hook up with drunks you can do that it's not like you're available to you it's really hard i think we have to think about the six months of the year that we don't have flowers and grass right you know your proposed skating park and while it might not have been ideal for a stormwater i think he was right on the money for that it was  oh you know that's and that's where the town might be able to work in a partnership was like ok yeah if you can provide that space but i reckon that's the that statement we will we will flood it and we will have an input take the thing out of the middle of night in winter in the spring and do all that kind of search so it's not an all or nothing proposition i like ok developer saddled with all these in the community sell these are there hopefully as a dialogue that goes on that says hey if you can design this space to allow for some of those things or grabbing things you know al leave maybe  take advantage of that so that's a relationship and that to the to the point of all these supporting economic development yeah all of a sudden you've got fifty five people out there skating and hanging out looking for hot chocolate you know i think probably the play had to put it near the hot dr honestly i mean i think some of these things were and that's one of the reasons these are really important because these do oftentimes really respond architecture they like the they like to be nestled in and around architecture because it's it's these outdoor space that actually make those indoor spaces really work so as we as we kind of push the d c forward in the mix you some arms particularly this is with this these districts will be these will be applied probably to that those districts the really more dense districts the thing i think you should be looking for is is are you creating these open spaces in areas that actually have the ability to relate to the architecture you're proposing and do you have can you tell us a story about how they help your economic development activity in those buildings and if somebody comes back with a plan that says here's my green space and here's my building and they can't give you a compelling narrative there's a flag on the play that's i would work that you know one of my disappointments with all the the to his property the master plan if you're going to do is there are some lights that are not there yet them and develop jennifer look at those over some time there's a couple spots there you could probably do some ice and pocket park they don't these tend to be very small you know yeah right five thousand square feet mean they can be really small they don't have to be big you know you get into squares and you get into plaza as they get bigger you know get into the corridor after you can even classes but these tend to be really small and you want to be really small because that's kind of the intimacy that actually makes them useful you know yes but the key on these though in these sort of seeing all of these is they're always integrated with connectivity so i guess that's the other thing is that yeah that little pocket park that's adjacent to a residential terms of communicating that these are important because you know these these are valuable assets that provide the residents of the owners of this property properties benefit and i think that there would be you know good developers will see that they real they'll realize that if they put this in next to their coffee shop really put a little you know a little square in next to their building that's going to help them you know not something that's not a that's not a it's a cost yes but the cost of actually comes back and serves them well and if they're required to do open space you know one of the things that you can say going back to this the scale you need to provide is because you know these cost more in a square foot basis you can require them to build a less you know less open space but better slowly open a right with the parking lot is what i'm saying where you can get into that forest when you're talking about that wall on fifteen what happened was they opened just a moon space and that is long as they can get into the woods  bike path all the way to causeway that you get writing books ok so you write so you familiar with that so one of the crude criticisms you can look at that open space so in the downtown area there's there is that interaction between the bike path and the recreational space and some if you look at your represent and you look at where it's sort of intersecting one of the key things that the the master plan is going to complain contemplating is providing that link from a circulation perspective and bringing it back to some of these recreational assets so that they can be good starting point sort of people would actually start at the essex town side the ini at the mad taco and start their bike rider and their bikes that's the that's like their voght for for for recreation open space planning design so that's  where they are and they would know there's a taco plate we call those tourists so so that's you know that's kind of the sort of the frame around some of these different types and so one of the things that that which we talk about the sort of the the the mechanism within code this sort of can be appl differentiate between different types of open space so one of those first things i think will do a staff is review those regulations to see how we can keep them up at least with regard to  case we're talking about things that may be off site that maybe privately  and i'd also just mention one of the examples i use for public versus private is the maple tree place cream which is actually a pretty nicely done green but it is privately owned and programmed and there was  question of moving the farmer's market there are some interest in doing that and it seems like a logical place for it but back then i don't know if it's still true there was an issue was shot at being right there  often use it for public things but it does change the nature of that and certainly i understand that you're you know we talked about church street at the last meeting and you guys sent around the article from you know about the discussion they're having and that's part of that discussion too how should these be public spaces be own to maintain over time so  definitely something we're going to need to talk about but in terms of regulations i think the main thing is just you know as mark said being much more clear on what type of functional opens face is required and even defining regs and then we can talk about things like minimum maximum size yeah how much open space should be required in relation to multifamily things like that i think it would be no it was we get into the you know the the the drafting of the code i think the one thing we will want to think about is that minimum x of it and making sure that the ranges are are appropriate enough to cover the the the spectrum here like for example in the in the mixed use north mixed use south we may want to have a less a little bit less flexibility about that if if if the if the commission feels really strongly that they want to make sure that that doesn't get built out i mean we're we're we're kind of suffering now from a lot of things that have already been done so you know they put a lot more pressure on things to come honestly with the redevelopment that might come and so that you know the main arrowing down the minimum is a maximum maybe more advantages for the community so they can be clear as to the expectations you've got whereas in some of the other parts of the d c you may be able to get away with a larger variety of open spaces you know commitments and the types there i just i just my what my worry is that you know is that we're kind of retroactively trying to create some you know improve like you mentioned about the lack of some of those things that are there and and to be able to make sure that they don't get lost as the future review of projects goes on i think that the clarity of the code probably needs to be a little stronger than it would be in a greenfield environment if we're doing the greenfield environment a lot of these principles of open space and recreation design would already be cooked into the planning as our developers approach it they're already looking at these they want these things because their owners want these things but when you're dealing with sort of figured into any pattern it's already there it's a little tougher so i think we'll to look at that and give you some guidance on that the last thing i want is just sort of highlight is you know you project was you know the scenic view corridors on fifteen and the importance of the other quarters and that's really an important part of the open space plan the preservation of some of those interviews now i think we did talk a lot about and we'll degree that are in code is sorry there but i think there there would be a need to maintain some of that language so that we continue to perpetuate that because it seems to be a that was a very it was a very important conversation with the community when we had yeah there are going to be a little bit of challenges that i think because the because you know we are talking about in the mixed use southam in the buildings are getting taller and and we did talk about as you might recall when we had the public process that you know there may need to be some obstruction of view  of you know about mansfield but the grades are working down to get to height so that was there that wasn't partly response to some of that but i think we have to load do a little work in terms of figuring out if there's other language we need to do to maybe modify what that says so that it doesn't act as kind of a artificial prohibition on something that has already been kind of contemplated that's one thing i was just kind of flagged in my i was thinking about that it's like well i don't know if you haven't looked into the there are things to learn from that it's you know really district and but to the extent that we have had an opportunity to use a little bit it's confusing to us and what is the basis of confusion i'm just curious well it started out well and good we did a photo inventory of the town of the scenic roads and every five hundred feet we took three sixty photos and the emphasis if you remember the project was views to the mountains and the idea was to save the view is to  are aware and you know what they mean in terms of when you come in for application if you're in the we've seen a garret is i mean you don't do anything or is there a what level of you know protection are you supposed to do based on where you are and what your resources are terest of open space and objectives and see every sort of protection objectives there is a question as to whether it's blanket preservation of those views from all locations on route fifteen for example or is it back to that view corridor and sort of making sure that we can define those things because i think one of the things as this plan was sort of formulated it it began really i think it communicated pretty well this idea that there is some verticality to the some of the e t c so there's you know a three story building on the roof fifteen side versus a four story building the same height essentially that's the way that the grades are dropping down as you go towards the interchange but there it's a tweeting i'm so that's the physical reality that we're sort of working with but there is going be better if that's if that's the right approach that's a person who wants to then then it could create a situation where you're not orienting architecture in a way that actually works well because if you know those you combs don't work in the same manner as the grid might for example so you may be making bad decisions about the placement of architecture in the in the effort to preserve those views which i get and understand that they can appreciate that but in terms of the whole composition you end up getting all these sort of a call in the first chapter we actually did try to identify some of those you should send the good news is at the end of you know at the end of the whole stage road you know that's a big one and that actually is now getting preserved and actually mr friends to e helping to contribute to that idea of that viewpoint getting covered by putting that road segment and connecting over so i think there is it's probably not a big loss but i think it is one of those things as the codis speak to how that gets handled and i think that's going to be the rule that's going to probably be a little bit more tricky of language in terms of making sure that the developers understand that we're not talking about you can't do a two or three or four story building here but there are going to be some cones of view that are really important so discretionary were if you have to sacrifice opens earlier views among versus you know good design of the buildings and public spaces you know that's true yeah we talked about stepping back so i know in those corners there may need to be a more emphasis on forms that actually step back so that the use opened up and you're not sort of dealing with a canyon that things like that but i guess my question is how much can you cut that in the regs versus how much will that just come up during a review of the development and be sort of a judgment call by the plan can become very administrative but we're we are sensitive and it is we have started this process of you know in doing a hybrid partly to do that hunts to give but not to that yeah yeah we understood that from one of them might be a particular topic that has to get handled so you know state yeah and i think that's a good segue to some of the other you know one of the other things i want to talk about tonight is you know we've been going through all these different elements and we have more to go with architecture some you guys thinking about them hopefully get some good some of those those bike rack elements to sort of keep track of some of the comments but or make it very clear we're not we will need to work with you guys to figure out what you want to regulate and what you don't at the end of the day it's up to you guys to decide what you know how far you want to take these regulations and how how prescriptive you want to be and how it to daryn's point how you know flexible do you think you need to be to maintain some some options and and we're i'm you know we're both really sensitive that we know we know it's not easy to regulate and we know it's not easy to use to help help regulate that so that is a point of conversation that we will be having as we get in next year as is ok we've heard about these issues about open space forms and types of her issues about connectivity we've heard these issues about about the different districts you know the descriptions those districts an locations of the districts those sorts of things you know we can talk about how how detailed we want in this conversation we really important we get into architecture in the forms that go along with that because there are lots of and we talk a little bit about this this is staff last week there's a lot of ways to regulate buildings and you can get picking out drapes if you really want to but i think you know one of the recommendations and i had was that you know to me that it became most of the t c s there's a lot of build that's already there so we're we're dealing with a lot of infill mostly infill development so a lot of the forms have already been established and it's not likely that they're going to go away in the near term i mean there's the residential buildings and put there they're there for a while right but what hasn't happened in the e t c has been the orientation of structures the arrangement of buildings related to roads related to open spaces really the connectivity has been not as good as it probably could have been so working in the form part of this the architecture for this to make sure the buildings solve some of those problems as they come in the new ones come in or the retrofits of all those come in that to me it seems to be the biggest bang for the buck in terms of what t regulations could help to steer this in the direction i want to go but that's another we'll get to that i did want to sort of up procedurally we talked with staff last week about recall we have the meetings in fact we had a meeting in the twenty fourth of january and then we've got meetings on the twenty eighth of february twenty eighth of march twenty fifth april and those four meetings were meant to cover architectural form of character and densities and so i talk with staff about about taking the twenty fourth meeting in january and actually doing a kind of a recap of where everything's at and actually coming to you guys with some suggestions about what we think you might want to regulate kind of how come and outline the sort of approach to kind of recap where we are today and i'll give you some respond to because i think that's i see that i don't mind my plan commissions help somebody give me something respond to it helps me a  t so instead of doing two meetings on uses and densities we do one meeting on uses and densities because i think we've already kind of touched on those a lot in the previous discussions that unless the commission feels otherwise i feel like we've got a pretty good understanding that we're or kind of on the same page is terms of that the e c is going to be denser than it was today and that those density density sort of vary by those districts but there's a some level of concurrence that will obviously we talk more about that so i don't feel like we feel i need feel like there was a lot of need to spend two meetings on that if we could do that probably in one but architecture in the form and character i think it's definitely two meetings and i think we will probably want to break that up acceptable kind of structural change i don't think we want to gloss over density or i think the city is really important here and it's got to be tied to the architecture  and i guess my question for dana is we're sort of all still waiting for public works to evaluate you know what we can do if we are going to get there we've been talking about it for months and i think it's really important is really to go forward talking about what forms we're going to build and how much we're going to build we need then information yes so on dennis it is god it was waiting for more information from this solid waste district and in order to be able to do another memo and we needed that before we met in the last several meetings ago we decided to have a meeting with dennis and three members of the planning commission during the approach to recreation is also dependent on how much we can go there and what what we go there because we need you really need to look at your clientele you know so sore all ties together and you know maybe i'll just stop and have a have a beer with evan on my way home we'll talk it over with janice any other commissioners have any issues with the change in approach i assume staff supports  think there is definitely those are some foundational things but i also you know i was talking to sharon earlier today i think it's you know there is it there's a i think there's a conversation obviously needs to happen at some point between the plane commission public works  more eventually and everybody in terms of in terms of the fact that what we're talking about in terms of this regulatory structure and some of the things that were you're looking to do as a community in terms of this public private space issue the road standards issue the recreational asses issue all those things the a t c is relative is a very small part of essex so we know you know we've had this conversation began with i think there's been no delusions as to fact when you're dealing with create try to create a place that's more elevated in its character and more pedestrian oriented and more dense like we're talking about that there's going to be some additional costs associate with that it's not always on the community at large it's not always on the private sector at large there's always a place in between where those two things go but it's a probably it's of it's a fair statement to say that when you decide that you want to have an outdoor space that actually looks good has all the sort of some of the accoutrements of a place that it costs more money to maintain and that's the decision communities make to invest in a center right a place so in that and again that's not to say i think some of the conversation some of the comments that we've seen to date i think may not really fully reflect the fact that that we're talking about the commitment of essex on but maybe it is a very small area and so yes there may be some additional costs in terms of those things but you're applying you're applying those enhancements to place in the area of town that has the most potential economic development opportunity to pay you back which is different to the feedback that i've got in individual conversations and i think dustin would agree is that i think commissioners are anxious to  start actually doing work and not not and have a break from the high level conversations which is very fear radical and actually start having some of the substantive conversations about some of the proposal and then if you look even looking back we talked about this last meeting looking back at some previously approved items that have come through in kind of running through that playbook and just talk about what they do yeah yeah yeah you know if the commission feels like they want to you know if you want to stop where we are now and and work through these issues and then part of the conversation about architecture we can do that too i mean we could take i'm totally amenable to changing the they approached as i thought you know when we when we crafted a work plan i think it was meant as a way of hopefully getting the play commissioned as much on board with sort of the the the plan the vision as much as possible so that when we got into that drafting mode we were sort of all kind of  come back to that touched on and say ok i or why we're doing this now right why we're talking about these different types of open space well mark talked about that one why this makes a lot of sense or doesn't but you know this is probably a good point where we could decide you know again there's  a number of substantive district boundaries for example that we've kind of worked through and i think we've got some clarity around those we've got purpose statements that could be written for each of these districts that would be huge we need to have eventually or a point where those could be drafted and crafted up and decided i think we've got some language that we could pull start to pull together related to the types of open spaces that would make sense in each district and can clarify that answer talking about some of the scales of those things we've got some language i think we can pull together in terms of the connectivity the types of street sections that we think would make some sense so you know we can we can feel it maybe in it maybe it may make some sense i'm just thinking out loud here apologize if it's noisy  but it may make some sense to do that because the issues that you out a bit in the issues that dennis has you know the the capacity of the e t c to build out because of the water sewer issue that's that's a structural thing that is independent of the regulations and a lot of ways i mean you know you can enable regulations to allow really high density but if you have the water that's going to happen so that's not something that the regulations need to really at this point need to really worry about these other things though i would contend are you know regardless of what you decide relative the build out is really critical like the path of the walkway connections that i just see you bringing i mean a greek because i just see you bringing a lot months click by and we keep talking about hypotheticals and at some point i think the planning commission and the community and staff need to sit down and talk about do we want buildings up against the street or one pole i mean like we have to we've talked about the options in the five  are many there are but we never seen the land so i think some of us are anxious to get in before too much time passes maybe doing some of that lifting and seeing what what it looks like and then to john's point how would that have affected some of our current projects or how will it affect maybe some of the undeveloped space moment thing january for these people january the talk of the staff and all the department heads are just absolutely focused on the bottom and that's outside of this process and i can't let that happen i mean that's a yearly thing that happens every year and that i can again deserve off the cuff here i think there may be some logic to cooking into this next couple months a maybe a break in in this process because i think we've got we've a has been helpful i mean i hope it's been helpful open for us for sure and that's part of this thing i said we have to understand to where you guys are coming from but maybe it is worth taking a little bit of a break in terms of this process with the planning commission to allow us to sort of van't some of these dimensional things connectivity things the open space elements and and cook those into the maybe the district boundaries in the frame to the purpose statements and some of those elements and sort of those into this outline and bring those integrated together right so if you guys decide that you like building envelopes that are two hundred fifty feet off the road then the forms they're going to come along with that are going to have to follow so we just need to be careful about letting that get too far but i think as a first blush and as a way of  cross sections the i can do all that for discussion yeah i think so yeah that's really where they are ready to start rolling up your shirt sleeves and i think that's a fair really fair understand all the different options that come along with each piece of you guys have been going through it's been very for starters putting to the test you know i'm going to try to time also but i think the two things are important to be doing together just like we're doing so i think again i think again i would agree that would be the good news is we're kind of adam a logical spot where we've kind of covered some of the ground plane stuff and the you know the look you know what's going on within the district i think we've got a good starting point for that and we can you know that all of this was going to happen anyway it's just about of when they had this project was supposed to go until next you know september right so this first part to april is going to give us to this kind of background stuff and between april  september was going to be churning through these things so what we're really talking about is taking some of that work that was going to happen in june july or whatever and moving it up to get work through that with you and then get back to this for the good we definitely need to have this couple conversation with architecture we were i just don't feel comfortable at this point even recommending anything in terms of regulations until we have a conversation about it and then do that do that testing coding drew a lighting part for that and then the last part will be to bring it all together into something that sort of makes sense so i can see that we're going to go back with staff and yeah come back so all the same time and then also just how we organize yeah work with your schedules and ability to  also are we willing to let them do some infill development in exchange for some access to my cost and is that kind of where we're going with this process i think that's too specific a question not very good sorry english major because i think one of the big thing is for areas is recreation and i i think so i think i'd be great and i'm looking for a way to do that so as david said if we can have some tools or tool box to negotiate yeah i think you know again the you know one of that's a tool in the tool box and so if they're in the process of rezoning at the the densities allowances go up and the open space requirements come down you know that's that's a potential welcome there and we percent it's a huge percentage of open space right instead of thirty percent it goes to twenty percent or fifteen percent and the quid pro quo is that it comes to fifteen percent with trail access doing through their property ok there's a public benefit that's worth fifteen percent of field in my mind so yeah i think those are the exactly that's the me that is the purpose of this plan so that's good that it's actually having its intended function but again back to the conversation with allie i think there is you know it would be really great if the town is sort of a den of flying and tell him plan slash reparation plan level those things too so that you know i think we talked about the beginning of this project i'm a big proponent of having all these things lined up so that when the developers kind of coming in they can go to the town planning go to rec planning go to the master plan they go to the voting and there's like everybody speaking the same hymnal and it's not a question as to whether or not this level of connectivity or this level of recreational access is how often to tell by get some advice of them those are not easy things to deal with but if it is this is by reference in the town plan right that well when we had recommended is and once we finalized the master plan especially if it's used as a guy that the town start this next year you know the parks and rec have had a recreation needs assessment that is been overdue so it's pretty stale and that is going to be when and so because you love you you know you're such a trail guy that i think you would love to participate and bring the things that you're saying here actually if you're on the list yeah and also the conservation trails committee you know there are other players in this so we have other resources they did to get you know the issue with the town plan up you know in the town plans amended to reflect whatever comes out of this process you want to make sure it's your lines up back to your point that's also the point where the needs assessment could be referenced as well so that you go back get back to the idea of everything sort of winds up so there's a this isn't a sort of clarity that common merges from that when somebody is proposing to develop and and all right thank you both very much thank you appreciate it here with us kelly so other business i'm i don't know if you guys had a chance to look at the letter that was on your google which unfortunately the opening paragraph might be what you were on the look that was wrong so and i apologize for that that was my head so normally i come to you before the tape folks can catch you guys time how can i ask you guys to step outside just because we're approved and i told you a few times conditional use was amended a few years ago so that they can look at slightly stuff which they did on this application and they wanted the food cart closer to the road and it was pushed back it has to be fifty feet have to meet the setback requirement and so i guess my specific question to you is i have the zoning board meeting first so i wasn't able to give them input to see what you wanted to do so my question is did you have a chance to review the findings and conditions do you want to see it as an application for the temporary use or do you want to just review it this way to let you know it was a sure driveway and the  it's it's not a very good place it's not a very good place if you miles an hour or two here in public where it's it's it's regulated by the state which is why they got the street sign on and again i'm happy to come forward if you guys want to review it the home occupation is that's off your table so people will be coming in and out for the home occupation aspect of it so a for a final decision so this is one of those things that on the face seems easy enough but my experience is if they become simple popular well that's what she can only cook so much and she can only put out so much so it's not going to be an issue she did have a previous home occupation for the same thing at a different location in essex there were no issues  but i'm i'm happy i mean i'm happy for it to come before you if you want to discuss it i was thinking i was going to put it on consent but it sounds like it wouldn't be because you have you may have other questions to talk about that we usually don't truck that you would just do the home occupation full time at her home so so when she's doing the food truck she will have people come to pick up in her house and also they'd be taking out if they didn't want to stay they take out from the car so you know they tried to argue they want to close to the road to get visibility so people would know when it's like they came up the travel is too fast i think it's speech it's forty mph but people do fifty to fifty there yeah yeah  she said it was forty no it's a recommended forty on the corner it's just a yellow sign it's a fifty mile hours on the way around there so i don't know i don't know that we need to review it and want to have put finer ice on it we should have come in as an application it can't be it wouldn't be consensus you can discuss some for their things but what are we going to scuttle still i mean market say there's you know there's corner and well i think that the biggest concern from all the departments where people are going to stop on the road in that fast and so for me well i think that that once those comments start coming my way you know they i give them a violation i shut temporary uses for any proposed use is proposed any say in a calendar year so we quire conditional use proven from the board of adjustment and say plan who will buy the planning commission under section six again in the past we've passed it by you else well it is with great pleasure that i would accept emotional journey so moved by shoes seconded by mr firmly and all those in favor right here clo