basically that co q ten can be dissolved in the lining the claims in all three cases in eight hundred fourteen the claims are directed to the final formulation so they're directed to or a packaging nutraceutical formulation and in ten fifty one the claims are directed to making a soft capsule in each of these claims you will see that the claims require that can be dissolved in the lining and that there in the final product there is not an emulsion and that's where i want to start first in the ten fifty one case the patent the bo when they were saying soluble why would the contact was doing was talking about melting every aspect of the contact in fact the reason in the contact insoluble eyes can mean dissolve is there's a  six words as due to limited cybill of the of the quote you're tending fixed oils if you read the background section of the contact and column two column one he specifically highlight the problems in the prior art regarding being able to dissolve co to declaration seems to me to address this issue and not solved declarations states that there is liquefying or dissolve thing as well as the melting  was important but it actually goes in the other direction so if you focus in on paragraph form is off declaration and i think that's where that's where everybody's focused is if you look at those sentences what he's saying is doesn't understand the difference between to solving and melting because he says and paragraph six he's quite explicit in saying that the higher amounts of the molten i e already melted co q ten dissolution on top of that the only evidence you have is really income or no it's all there they're actually trying to figure out what they can do as an alternative to stead's improves the dissolution of poorly soluble cod compounds such as the co q ten that is to say that the process that is used in con your argument is ultimately that come on and the solve were saying solution but they met impulsion no so if you read those sentences that you have the it's exactly what i'm saying so what they do is they have the drug when they saying this case the oil phase containing the drug itself there they've already made that process that i just walk you through which is they've got they had the would you agree that more to yarmouth does talk about dissolving in the same sense that the pads do yes i would agree with that and so the only the only problem with mota yama as a as a reference is that in carbone continuing wells and so the component that he's focused in on for his invention is the car belonged containing portion of those oils now for the lining is not a car on containing oil so to meet that need that dui many now would be used for dissolution would there is no suggestion therefore for a couple reasons one is even  suggestion anywhere that you would be able to dissolve co q ten in the environment because when you the only source there's not even a mention of you i mean in a melting point reduction method that's an alternative to dissolving so for someone skilled in the art to all of a sudden say i will take the lemon oil or i will and then into it thesis he specifically says he doesn't understand why what components of the lemon oil may be helping with the melting point reduction method no one is talking about dissolving there they're just talking about their method of the of the melting point so they reduced the melting point they made they melted and then they're able to have the most fire make that solid motion and then be able to make their drug coverage of some kind and so in each instance there is nothing in the art that would starting at about line ten of marianna although the oils used in the president first and second inventions were mentioned previously specific examples of such oils will be further listed in then he has a very long list and about halfway through the list you'll see the word unknown and given just the general understanding of the arc both not just the predictable nature but even in that same office actually that i was talking about in appendix twelve thirteen con even says co q ten known no is particularly preferred but that means that the patent covers non carphone oils carette particularly preferred the implication is it's not the patent is not limited to those i when i say it's not covered it's not going to not explicitly called out by name it's not just yours but it's called out by category or called out by category but it's true it's a force for a tree where the invention here is very specific to something that discovered but the point that i'm trying to get at and i think you you would agree with me that well maybe it would but it does look like what the body armor is saying here is that i'm not limiting my invention to car seems to go to to me is to say it's not limited to car phones and your honor i mean there's a way to read that i mean he's that's what he's trying to do but i think one still in the ark when they read it i don't think i could understand your but any kept first year chemistry student would say dissolve names turn it into a solution not an emotion yes but the problem is we have to grapple with the argument that this was a misuse in light of everything else we have about con talking about emotions this emotion until it is put into an environment and that is very clear throughout this pattern ok so what he's saying is his whole goal here is created haps the capsule has it a formulation that formulation reduce the melting point of the coke utensil becomes liquid i'm going to create a solution am it's going to disperse because in the presence of war it is going to create an emotion inside the gut and it's that and that is when he creates  but i think when you look at that when you look at this reference as a whole i think it is very clear when he's talking about emotions he's saying the resultant emotion after you put it in water and you stir i mean if you also goes on to he shells grabbed onto that argue that ok he says and watch sounds like it's exactly the opposite of the of the mechanism that you've just been describing it's this is the one sentence or other that is in the us it's internally cannot dissolve when the of ok and that's why becomes an emotion in war but when you've got the oil in the cookie ten those are two liquids and they are they become a solution so they're a solution  most fired us so we submitter are physically that is what's happening here ok and where's the best description anywhere on this record of that process that you've just laid out the states column come to life fifty five he says in a eutectic based sense the melting point depression method allows the oil phase containing the drug itself to melt at body temperature from it he's talking about if we go to page eight o two a column seven he explains you know visual observations he's trying to evaluate how this emotion looks when you put it in water and whether it creates a transparent emotion or not and so for example at at column seven line in line one introduced into one hundred elm one hundred m l s of water in a glass flask at twenty five degrees sick and the contents were gently stirred manually the tendency to spontaneously nano emotion he calls it which is nano sized droplets of solution suspended in water right through the floor of the water arrived it was you say a solution yes yes so the my he even goes further because he says he provides one other benefit women like he says furthermore lemon oil has been has been used internally as herbal medicine for acidic disorders such as arthritis and rheumatism with great benefit in liver congestion so he tosses in one more reason why you want to use lemon while over the other way and again providing motivation the person who in your skill  then we've got as another reason another motivation to make the combination we've got so i just own expert witness in a federal litigation involving the contact and where so that you know the substitution of lemon oil for other essential oils is a predictable variation that would be known to one of what mary skill at a minimum to be obvious to use or obvious to try lemon oil based on the teachings of the turpin's they're the same class molecule they can be expected to behave similarly and therefore when you make the motivation there is clearly a reasonable expectation of success for that initial reason so we submitted there are multiple reasons why it would have been there was a motivation dissolution i understand now i think where there may be confusion between what i'm saying and what we were talking about before so let me be clear at least this is what i or what i think is going on so there's a timing difference if this and i want to make sure we're all talking about the same thing when we when i talk about the process of making snags and that's in the past and i don't think it's really disputed the process of making sense has no water in it what they have is right koku tanenbaum the oil they melt it and they add the multiplier at that point they have an emotion and then that's what either put in the soft shell capsule or the powder form they do something to make a tablet and that's fine but regardless of the starting point for making that where you now you have an emotion that that case there whatever that when you have that maybe melted in with the lemon oil you now at the most mean we can go through sentences in column six they say the result into motion in column a lot and that you walk through with them that's the same process it's the process of making the product when we're in column two and we're talking about dissolution here it's the and now you've got this product let's do the capsule version and you've got what is the snags which is the four things that are listed in column two the oil the serf product that is now that we use the process i went through they melted it they added it they've now made that in motion they have loaded it into the capsule somebody takes it and the dissolution there now that we're talking about because the body now melts it at thirty seven degrees you've got to find emotion droplets and the dissolution there that we're talking about is bioavailability to the body it's at a different time because when we were when i was first talking about the manufacture of the main factor there's no water all there is is that four steps i said you have the level of oil you fires and then they stir it but at the end of the day that becomes the paste that is now in the tablet or the sock out full when he's talking about then that is then ingested that is what  that sentence is that we've all focused in on from line about fifty to sixty in column two was talking about so that dissolution that we're talking about there is after you take that tablet what happens in the gut but for purposes of our claim where we're talking about how you make the prop at the product level what content teaches in every instance is that process where you end up with an emotion they do then forming  and how i don't understand how those two things which are the same actions were differently is it that you use more the lawman and which dissolves rather than just melts to the deal i'm an r n and and due to the lack of solubility in fixed oils like this he actually cannot get it it is also what he saw in the lab and he put that together when he put lemon oil in coke and then together by his own words is not dissolution so then he applies heat in this case he's going to body temperature he's trying to get to of point where he says if you put enough lemon oil there you can get the melting point of coke you turned down tonight degrees or so so your body temperature can melt it for the bioavailability piece that's his goal but to get there the way he does that is he's got up to ten in lemon oil he observes those not to have dissolved so he applies heat when does he play he when he's making that for ulation when he's making his formulation he puts gurkha sorry just to make clear when your patent does it you don't need heat to dissolve in the noble in our patent the weight happens if you just you have it's just like salt and water except  and the salt is koku ten you put it in there it now dissolves there under what the temperature no matter of these there's no limitation of the pattern on that there's no discussion of that room temperature the example i think so at room temperature it just dissolve that is in the final tally it is not then and emulsion and we exclude emulsions specifically in the claims all the claims and when they're talking about dissolution at least in column two it's about  post manufacture we're talking about that once it's in the body's going to melt it you're going to have something available to the body in those micro modes and dropped it's not talking about it at the time you're manufacturing at the time you're manufacturing it what they're doing is taking that quote you ten adding it to lemon oil melting it because it's not they're not they're not seeing in that this illusion and that's why they're telling you do to the ability in whatever happens in your got the one other understand what what value what any component of lemon oil could or could not do and no one's and they are very skilled people in the art their professors their rights that's a step that post ops working on the two thousand and four study to figure out what if any ol any fact that these kind of components can half and so it would be impossible to say condom self studied or pot anything with regard to those specific components in