everybody i'm ed baker and it's my pleasure today to oakham you to arc or the addiction recovery channel arc is a channel that is devoted to people with substance use disorder or really anybody who cares about a person with substance use disorder we're here to help you to understand what brain addiction is to help raise consciousness to be a part of  this groundswell of compassion that we see in our communities today for people suffering from this disease and it's my pleasure today to introduce our guest our guest today a pleasure to be here thank you cliff it's a pleasure to have you here it's estimated today that there are approximately twenty three million people in recovery from addiction what's what's interesting is that this is been a relatively silent population up until recently more recently people in recovery are speaking out and that's the purpose of clips to visit with us today and i guess i would like to just start right there i'd like to know cliff what is it what is it that's  driving you that's motivating you to come and speak in a public forum about something as personal as recovery absolutely thanks for asking a question that's it's a great starting point  you know for about a year and a half into recovery i was kind of living in the shadows of recovery working my program trying to stay clean and doing a lot of things for myself and not necessarily reaching out to others as much as i i would have liked to and now i'm seeing all of this news on t v you know the opioid epidemic and i'm hearing these incredibly hurtful stories of folks who passed away as a result of using opiates and who you know have lifetime struggles with with these addictions and it's not often that i see you know represented in the news or on t v a positive story of recovery people who have been able to find a way to overcome addiction and move move on and be able to start their lives so i want to i want people to know that that's  possible thank you thank you and we're we're all right with you on that i'd like to thank you for your courage and like to recognize your courage and your concern it's not an easy task to come and speak about again matters that are personal so let's begin there let's take a look at your journey as a young man and what it was like what was it like at the time when you first began to realize that that substance huge was was a serious problem for you it's a great question so it took many years for me to reach what i like to call a breaking point or a rock bottom and basically for me that looked like desperation i was desperate to you know overcome what i was dealing with the depression anxiety and move on with my life and be able to do something positive and so i had struggled with addiction since i was you know around thirteen or fourteen and a lot of people say you know it started with smoking pot and you know alcoholism those kinds of things and then eventually progressed throughout high school and then also into college and i had a few run ins with the law in high school nothing too serious but most of all i realized the problem was inside me so i was in college and it was junior year and you know i was getting good grades a i had a difficult course of study and  at the same time i was seriously struggling with my addictive personality i'm especially with regard to drugs you know i started using harder drugs and led me into a period of depression very would you say that i want to diverge for a second because you made an interesting point that you started with with one drug that there's a lot of publicity now is sort of called a recreational drug and then you went on to other more serious or more harmful types of behaviors what was that like was that was that a gradual progression were you aware you know when you when you did you have a consciousness of the fact that you were getting worse that your symptoms your addiction was gaining power in your life or was it something that was subtle very good question i've actually you know before now i haven't really thought about whether that was a subtle transition or you know something that just hit me abruptly and i was like ok this is getting to be too much and now that i think of it i think it it was more of a subtle transition because  throughout college i started you know using ecstasy cocaine and eventually and it was over a period of a couple years i think from freshman year in college to junior year where i would have these  s of maybe using on the weekend and then stopping for two or three weeks maybe i had a test to study for something and then i go right back to it and eventually i started when i when i had these bouts they became longer and they were much less spaced out than they were before and so i was really getting into deep some deep stuff and it's almost like there was kind of a block i couldn't really see that what i was turning into i think my initial signal was my friends reactions and all i really actions to other people and i wasn't felt like i wasn't liked as much and i got really self conscious about that  sure sure that makes a lot of makes a lot of sense i think one of the tricks that addiction plays on on people with addiction is we all have internal processes that defend us from feeling emotions that are uncomfortable even if they're associated with the truth about us so sometimes will avoid the truth about us in this case there's an addiction developing it so as we have voided the addiction has free reign to in fact get worse so it was concerned friends that brought to your attention that hey you're not the cliff that that we know you  know what's up with you is that kind of what began to happen yeah yeah essentially that's what happened you know it it's not to say that the friends that i had were overly concerned or could it was very obvious to them that i was changing i feel like it was more it was a little more obvious to myself in that hanging out with these friends i didn't get the same reactions as they used to i didn't feel like i was included as much  parties or events and so i would just end up going home and using using substances by myself and that's that's where i began to found find pleasure and i think that's where the isolation sure are one of the hallmarks of addiction is isolation and it's interesting because i think what you're saying is what i'm hearing you say is that the reason there were sponsors resonated with you was largely because you were resting yourself the same questions why don't i look like me in the mirror what what is going on here what is up how did you how did you eventually but you have to ask the question you have to answer before you get motivated to move into recover how did you how did you answer that question did you need help to answer the how do you answer that question it was maybe the biggest question of my life and i definitely needed help i could not see that i needed help and i i was absolutely desperate i think the most desperate i felt in my life and i had plenty of support from family they know what i've gone through for a long time but you know they they also knew that i was an actively seeking any help for a long time and so they kind of let me do my own things i had to figure this out by myself over the years that something was out and eventually junior year of college i had a breakdown over winter break it was a very dark period of my life and  i got very desperate i ended up going to see a therapist and i told her what was going on and i just kind of let it all out i just told the truth you know admitted that i was really having a hard time trying to balance school and then my addicted life which was a huge part of my life at that time too so i was told that i was essentially leading a double life and something about that phrase double life that clicked with me and i saw that you know it's  expending more energy than i need to you know i have these motivations with academics but at the same time i'm sort of counter counteracting them with my substance use and i didn't feel like i was going anywhere so it was a therapist first first of all there was what you call desperation or we could call it motivation that got you into breakthrough a lot of people like to say it's in denial but but it doesn't really sound like denial it sounds like reluctance or shame or the inability or not knowing how to reach out for help i don't think it's people really denying that there's something going on with them you just don't know what to do so you broke through that and you actually became motivated enough to reach out to a therapist and say help you yes if you help me by introducing me to so i was on i was a junior at the university of vermont  and she opened up the avenue for me to speak with the director of the campus recovery program yet and i had no idea that existed i didn't know that it could help me you know that was the last thing i thought this getting into this program would be the you know that the start of a new beginning if you will but but it was yes so i reached out to my therapist and she connected me with someone in recovery who was in this recovery program it was it was a post back here at students and after meeting and having coffee with them i began to feel less alone yeah i instantly felt well this person has seen has been through what i've been through and now they're getting help too so maybe i can do that and they're going on to do great things they're going to graduate school maybe i can do that and that's what that's what this is about sending that word out there to the general public maybe there's some young people out there any people out there they could be college students or just other people with addiction who will hear you and say hey maybe i can do that you know one thing one thought that you've kind of provoked in me is that we hear a lot about and research will show invalidate that availability drives us if there's a lot of a drug available people will tend to use it more availability to drive you should we've seen this many many times isn't the same thing true with help doesn't availability drive seeking help like in your cage they happened to be a valuable in the school setting our campus recovery network counselors available to you where you could go and you could reach out absolutely absolutely so after i took that step like i said i had no idea that this existed and you know it's still being developed and these programs are popping up all over the country which is which is really nice really like to see that but it it was it didn't seem like it was tremendously openly available to students i didn't see posters or signs or advertisements  know comfortable places to sit down and we meet in a circle and we we meet for about an hour a week and we talk about our experience in recovery and we go through different articles related to recovery and it's really promotion of just bringing students together to talk about their their shared experiences and the struggles of being a college student being around so much partying yeah  you're you must continuously be faced with the opportunity to use substances what what what is it what is it like to be a person in recovery how long are you in recovery now minus of course so my sobriety date is may twelfth two thousand and sixteen ok so i've been in recovery for a little over seventeen months and it gets easier as time goes on i will say that but you know everything when i was just starting out in recovery i didn't think that i would have relief from my depression i didn't think i'd have to leave i no longer had these avenues to help fix these problems that i used before substances so i needed to redevelop or focus on different habits that would keep me sober  keep me keep me away from from a drug and so i you know luckily i was still in school so there was a plan laid out for me there you know these scylla by i had to follow in these classes and these exams so getting over it in a  routine is often very helpful for me and being in recovery it's not easy but life is so much better for me than what it was before just like the amount of joy and happiness i experience on a daily basis like just waking up i'm excited to wake up in the morning with a coffee and do a crossword a lie good you know i'm actually living and i don't have to constantly worry about you know the next wave to to suppress this feeling you know the next way to procure the strugar something or to feel a different way it's i find different things to help with that that's it it's so beautiful and you know we know now today from from decades of research that addiction is a brain disease it's that the brain is fully compromised it's fully impaired hijacked some people call it and the general public really doesn't in understand the extent of that how deep that runs you know it's not you know from friday afternoon till monday morning when you when you get to that certain point where you reach what we call addiction it's from friday afternoon to friday afternoon right twenty four seven and the interests that you would normally be drawn to the helping interests in life relationships hobby you know  endeavors there are different types of things that excite us all that is is inaccessible to you because your brain is so focused on drugs it takes like richmond would you say seventeen months now maybe eighteen months of recovery your brain is beginning to heal the old cliff when you look in the mirror i'll bet you know who you're looking at it do tell us a little bit about that guy that you see in the mirror today  on with you a lot of good things you know i can now look in the mirror and feel comfortable with who i am as a person rather than who i want to be or who i perceive myself to be or what i think i should be you know when i was in active addiction when i was using substances and alcohol when i was addicted i couldn't really see it like you said my brain was essentially hijacked the chemistry in my brain was was you know thrown off in such a way that the things that used to interest me for instance playing drums i was very interested in herpetology studying snakes and reptiles that always go out in the woods go on hiking trips and stuff i lost these i enjoyed them so much when i was a kid and that was you know that was not an instant gratification that was a long term happiness that i had you know i could spend hours at a time and then nights looking forward to doing it the next day and with substances i lot not only did i lose that but they precipitated the depression the anxiety th the negative feelings of loss of relationships so i may have just gone off a little no no no you're describing it perfectly then it becomes a global right it becomes your world and you can't get out of it but but with recovering you you find you you you you recover your old interests you recover that the potential for health in your brain and you were just describing some things that are important to you today like playing the drums herpetology which i think is why i think it's wonderful how different individuals will find something that's unique to them because that's the way their brain operates you get when you're in touch with who you are you find things that bring you pleasure that bring you joy what is it that tell us a little bit about what you're studying in school what is that like your academic pursuits right now i am i am pursuing a master's degree in medical science at the university of vermont when i was an undergrad i majored in dietetics in nutrition i've always been interested in health and wellness and i exercise a lots i do yoga i cook i am very interested in how the body functions as a you know a i see an individual who is affected by these outside circumstances environment in and and how we eat and how we socialize all of this affects our health yes so i'm very interested in becoming a physician i would love  to eventually be able to treat patients holistically rather than just focusing on a one time fix it you know take a medication get better for a short period then you get these side effects and you're not really looking at the root cause of the problem i think what our society needs is more of a preventative approach in looking at ok what are these behaviors and habits that are developing early on that that lead to diseases and conditions and can we you know later in life when it when these diseases occur can we look back and say oh how can we treat these can we change alter someone's diet can we help with their exercise patterns but i do think prescribing medications insert in sherman stance i extremely important of course of course so do you think that you're on your journey into and out of addiction will help you to understand your your clients your patients as you move forward absolutely and i think you know i think i'd look at a patient in a completely different way i think that i you know i would be able to see through the outside you know appearance and what they seem to be going through and  sort of open my heart and be able to share in a common struggle of an experience you know i i struggle physically i struggled mentally and i know that i knew that through you know different getting help in different kinds of ways eventually i was able to not be cured in a sense but but to be treated in a in a healthy way throughout my life that i want to bring that to other other people i think that's such a negative beautiful and concise description cliff now what you just mentioned is really interesting when you should not be cured to me that triggers a whole line of thought so the idea of not being cured what what exactly what exactly does that mean so i like to think of it as if i if i were to go back to using say one day i just decide i want to take a drink or i want to go back to the pipe i know because it's happened before that if i do that this is a progressive illness if i do that it'll be worse than the time it was before meaning that you know the high is going to be shorter the comedown is going to be longer and i've seen this happen to myself i i told you may twelfth was my sobriety date while my original sobriety date was sometime in  march ok so i relapsed once and you know when i relapsed it started out with one pill that's it and eventually led to my drug of choice methamphetamine and i saw that progression more clearly that instance than i ever had before i just i just think that is such an essential point for people to understand about addiction that if you if you pass the line and you develop what we addiction that clearly clearly all the research in the world shows that the safest course of life for you is to abstain from psychoactive chemicals it's not the kind of thing where you have a can your addiction you become sober for ten years and all of a sudden you can start drinking bourbon because you have a drink bourbon for ten years the research shows that there's certain brain pathways that are dormant and they can be reignited with the introduction of the psychoactive chemical so this is really important for people in recovery going to stand and i think it's really important for the general public stand so if you're if you're having a party at your house you can probably bet that they'll be a few people coming that are in recovery from alcoholism or some addiction you may not know it because people don't broadcast it but let's have some drinks that are  nonalcoholic let's not make people feel uncomfortable if they're not drinking let's have some consideration people do it with people who are just deviating foods or have to you know have a special diet you'll see more and more menus accustomed to that yeah let's do that which substances to let's welcome people who who choose to abstain and what most people i do believe that most people in recovery learn that lesson the  difficult way every every every person's fondest desire is that someday they'll be able to you know use something casually or socially they attempt to do it in lo and behold it's very often a relapse and sometimes if a person relapses and is reluctant to seek help again the out can outcome can be death absolutely so if you wanted to speak a little bit now directly to your your peer group out there what would what would you say to them you know i would say when i you know before i entered into recovery i couldn't see i had no idea that i could change i could i could change the way i was acting the way i had been acting for years i was always that you know curious kid trying to hang out with the older kids and trying to to be cool and in i couldn't see that there was another way of life and that's because the way my brain is wired is to i have an addictive personality you know i like to use things in excess and i like to you know i like to use drugs and substances to mask my feelings i like to so i would say you know once you do get help once  you break that barrier there is another life out there waiting for you can turn around you can change it's absolutely possible and don't be afraid to ask for help because although it may seem that no one cares or that knowing you know wants to help helping other people is is a part of my recovery like i need to help other people because it brings me back to the time that i was in their situation i desperately needed help and talking talking with with young folks in recovery helps me stay sober myself because i get to relive those experiences see where i went wrong and what i've done since then thank you thank you for that and i think that's one of the main messages for the audience today that that out there there are there are many many people who understand this disease there are many people waiting and willing to open their door to help you i will put up a couple of slides now for college students in vermont and also for college students nationwide and we'll put up some slides for public information as far as getting help for people with addiction but what i'd like you to know what i'd like you to take away from the program is that there are many people out here who care about you like like cliff like myself like channel seventeen for giving us the time to have this forum to try to reach you we understand also that it's not easy i don't i don't want to give the impression that i think it's easy to break through shame or break the reluctance or break through fear and expose that vulnerable part of yourself that needs help we know it's not easy but we would just ask to to listen to feel the message that we're trying to communicate to you we do care and you know we want you to reach out when you're ready and we'll be here for you thank you you thank