findings and conclusions in two dozen times and i could make an argument with a straight face that he implicitly found that he was a man and i can make a straight face argument that he implicitly found my reading of this case is the judge said as a factual matter he is not a member of the union he told the union president i will pay you your money but quote i do not want to be a union member defacto member of the union they reasonably lead union officials to believe that plaintiff was a member rather than a nonmember why shouldn't i read that it could include that murkiness found him to be a d facto member of the union and that's the answer to the first family's remey i don't believe you can that is a fair reading of what the judge found when you look in the context of the facts of this case as i said he ended up just  answer the question i really mean it answers the question your honor because there is a legal standard to apply i think this court is on those religiously gave a standard until we answer the factual question as to whether or not the guy was a member if we know mckay is an airline mechanic he's not a labor lawyer is never read marquez's never read hudson doesn't know what all of this means so when he says in response to a union let her on december collective bargaining agreement which provides does it not the mechanism by which you become whatever we're calling it a participating core member no there are actually you actually have collective bargaining this from the beginning but now i don't think the trial judge who heard the testimony and made a finding of fact that mr mckay responded that he had no problem paying dues yet again dues is a term that mr mckay an no problem paying dues but he did not want to be a union member that is a fair reading of the testimony that was in the district court district court was entitle to make that as a finding of fact but he's but you know back to the question i asked you earlier ok there's evidence in the record but this record never answered the question so why shouldn't we just send it back maybe with a little short order it says we meant what we said you know so the question return and he was he like everybody else was told that everybody in the collective bargaining unit was a member of the union he was told they he had to take some kind of affirmative steps parents like to not be a member i am and from that the district  perhaps could and maybe he did completely on the ad i'm there there's no indication that he took the steps necessary to make himself not a member that that in and in the face of the up the delinquent does without also trying to separate himself that would get me to the legal point that none of first of all that not not all of those facts are accurately stated or in the record and i would really want to go through those with your honor but that also gets us to the legal point even if all of those facts were true as a matter of law that could not make him a follower and terry and consenting member and i'll go  those with you first of all as far as the contract ratification vote there is testimony that one excerpts of record one ninety seven the union president said quote the ratification vote is open to everyone record is clear in two places that the union president mr gerson skee said that election was open to everyone in the party years so that this not make mr mckay a member as far as the paying dues again i would actually quote adequate notice again goes back to the hudson notice which we contend is inadequate as a matter of law and not adequate notice if it is you know respecting his right not to want to join the union that's fine but that all that difficult a concept to understand what he was told that if you don't want to be a member you still have to make payments to us but they're just in a different amount that well he wasn't actually ever told what the different about what because they a computer that a death warrant right and therefore they were in violation of hutson but she was informed that there was a procedure by which someone who did not want to become a member of the union could nonetheless this and i'm trying to see why this is such a difficult concept for a guy who is capable of repairing aircraft engines and frames to understand i become a union member i don't see how much more he could do or say all these are to do is read the notice that was given to him and that tells them how you do it i mean it's almost like he didn't want to read the stuff that was on the bulletin board in the workplace have the exact page and in in this is the notice is supposed to say how you know come on number well that is their interpretation because they have anything to do with how you become  lawyer my colleague i think was so i haven't got a clue how what kind of notice is required if any are or explanation about how one becomes a nonmember well like really like that answer that the records that's what i would have thought we had sent this thing back for and for a determination on it which doesn't exist to meet this policy has absolutely nothing to do with whether you're it assumes you're nonmember and that's the reason he was given it because they assumed he was not in them or in this then tells you how you can object to the use of certain feet that is great yes come to work on their i'm screwing my agents into the airplane what is my the fault say and the answer must be under federal labor law my default setting is i'm a nonmember because membership is voluntary unionism it can not arise out of us most just ultra vires actions or things like that place that it must be i'm a non member but also then include the corollary that you have the right to continue working in the union a unionized fire after and basically be a free loader get all the benefits of the pay and done what the procedure specified and then continued to make whatever the payment was when they finally figure out what the reduce the amount was which i understand was a lot less than five percent less than what a  issues because they give him this policy does not make can and cannot make him as a matter of fact or law a member of the dea for setting must speed non membership is that what you just read mr goon everyone into what they called a membership without following their own rules procedures and bylaws which as a matter of federal labor law cannot make the nonmember who the person who by default a nine member into a union member because it's almost as though again if i walked up to one of your honors and said well you are a member of a particular church or you're a member of to kill a political party and  stood there well there's that make you as a matter of law a member of the church or a political party it just cannot operate that way and and unions traditionally have membership cards they have  applications it's unbelievable to me that this union will say well we shouldn't be forced to guess well all they had to do was hand out membership applications to the bargaining unit and then they would not go and this whole issue wouldn't even be morning your honour's granites for unions and high and local level fourteen i pay close attention to questions i'll jump in as well i think the ultimate issue in the case is whether the unions were accepting you agree your honor and there's no place in this record that i can find where the district judge ca not that's right and i find that he accepted union membership in therefore was a card heard him say didn't want to be a member any and gave him a copy of the policies and procedures of political to nonmember payees from which i infer that the union reasonably believed that he was not a member  attention and verbal explanations with people they knew and worked with was to tell him if he didn't want to be a member there was a procedure mr mccain if your has absolutely nothing to do with being or not being a member what it does is to say that nonmembers who are required to pay service fees can object to the use of those so this is kind of a hudson without being a complete hudson notice but it made no sense as i read it tells me if i'm in this conundrum how i get myself out of being a union member i think the overall point of giving him those and giving and i'll look forward to getting your hudson notice in due course and meanwhile if you don't have the right to enforce your union security quasi against me get me fired i think it's easier than that mr mckay said in this in the record that he understood there was a mechanism the mechanisms for pardon what is it it's for him to say i don't want to be a member of one agency officials there he said i don't want to be a member what do you say was he was willing to pay dues district court found he said he why didn't want to be a member participate in activities he didn't object objectively conveyed to the union simply that he wanted to opt out of membership and pavement fees agency fees the stock in fact and to your point your honor all of the conduct was to the opposite i mean the union was entirely justified on the facts here's an individual that simply with the simply if they didn't want to pay anything but every time he was approached and it was explained to him that he had t unilaterally declaring that everyone who works in the bargaining unit is now a member of the thank you i'm glad you brought it up there isn't anything and it didn't happen there was no draft nobody was inducted into the i guess to themselves and then at some point to the workers were an inclusive union and you're all they all members of it welcome to everything and and as a matter of contract law where the constitution provides quite formally and specifically how one becomes a member of this you union i believe has a right under federal law to determine its own membership requirements and they have the right here only to they don't have to comply with any of the formalities the entire purpose on the right of all the numbers that function union at rest what it isn't is just what i mean huntsman's very clear you've got to give adequate compliant notice including financial information until such time as you've got it you can't force the my answer a little but i think that the union has still has some obligation i don't think that somebody gets scot free off and has no obligation as a member of the bargaining unit i want to point out that the union in this case did not prejudice made an estimation to discount as any as he did for any other member even though they did not have an audit trail so it wasn't as if the union was saying good we gotcha you know you can have to pay one hundred percent because we have to don't have an audit yet because we don't have some practical that's not the case at all alaska airlines says we have things made aware by being in for us that pursuant to this article you were given an opportunity to join the union and have refused to do sell therefore you're out of here exactly and i mean a properly examines it's nice to if you have a union security clause in a contract that distinguishes all this they don't always i don't have the case say but i'm ninety nine percent confident that it doesn't have to under a law but the what matters is what what and what was done in this case was he was given the option and he was treated the same as everybody else in the bar in the unit and he didn't contest that he was a nonmember until after he was terminated not even his grievance which is the legal airlines was dismissed as a party mediation is the possible here is that because i presume he won his job back if you were able to successfully mediate the question of what you view i think you mean that even if you were not a number of the union that your hughson notice was adequate yes well and the reason is because because you have any better accomplished hudson if the man had elected him not to be a member i'm not going to do is no no no no i'm assuming he's not a member of the sunni's not a member so it's your position that the hudson notice was complain about not having time to break the financial breakdown when he expressed no interest in any any part in time why does it matter whether he was a member i'm not sure if he didn't bring up his nonmember argument till after it was time and it  no obligation to pay anything that's the night allison hudson can buy i mean that's it follow either one follows logically well but i think if you were to take that then that would mean that nobody in the burn unit would have an obligation to pay was going along with being a member i mean he painted a check for dues when given the option to do something you don't know whether that check was reduced to the union in the traditional sense or whether it was just saying look i'm not quarrelling with paying money i just don't want to have the union label on but it's subjective intent whether you like they're not is that relevant to anything i mean again we're back to the ticket of the taxes i don't necessarily agree that i should be fined or pay the taxes