gument i'm going to make is that for rules of statutory construction support the board's argument in this case and none supports the arguments of my opponents so i start with the standard of review unfair labor practice is clear air that's true we don't dispute that but that's not what we have here but we have here and the ideal or be can see this is the court is being asked to interpret two statutes like you to ignore the i assessed already in my school student records actor istra but you've got to step she's here you have to interpret and that's a clear question of statutory interpretation which is reviewed  you don't you don't dispute that the student records would be relevant to the determination off of the dispute involving the security guard they may be relevant but i believe that the union r d has the information they need and it's obvious that they do from their statement of the facts they know that these kids have been disciplined in the past but i don't think the school records act says that you don't protect the records of kids who are bad actors doesn't make that distinction so no i don't believe that they need these records they know well that mr cooper was in the altercation with these kids he knows what happens and could testify to it the other say the security officers in the school know what's going on if a kid's expel the security officers know that because they have to keep that child out of the school right you know it clearly there could be circumstances whether the whether the union knew through other channels that the two students involved were had other problems had other disciplinary problems is really beside the point there could be circumstances where  an employee or a union member is facing discipline or combination and it involves interaction with the student and the union or the employee doesn't know the students it and so the op doesn't have the opportunity to explore whether there is something in the student's records that would call their credibility into question or enable the employee to  more adequately defend himself or herself and this or provides for that it provides a mechanism for the unions to obtain the student records in that case and that brings us to the first real statutory construction i'd like you to consider which is when you have two statutes under  elated issue you have to try to give effect to the to both of them and so the way that you can give effect to both of them here is to require the union to get a quarter which is what when they wouldn't do this are the records in camera ok but we don't need to decide whether they're relevant no i don't think so i think that that would be for a court that's looking at the records to decide and i think that's what this are acquire second rule of statutory construction i'd ask you to consider and maybe i should go back to the first i think that this question look at its own decision and radiates versus chicago housing authority where there was an issue of student records also and the plaintiff's attorney refused to turn them over this court said that was appropriate because the attorney was trying to get it determination of what the student records purplish requires that's what we're asking for here and that's why we should have been hit with an unfair labor practice when we're trying to assert the statutory rights that we're required to hold the second rule is statutory construction is x includes the opening of this which is the istra has a list of into t's to whom these records can be released and employee unions are not among them the third rule is has to do with the previous enactment is from so if you have to see the general assembly you're supposed to assume that they know when they've been active in the past ask you to implement is the more specific statute trumps more general here the more specific it is the student records act the more general the right yellow rave protection for  does not specifically say that the district has to turn over student records this isn't a case like oh fox where the statute says in a special education case the district has to file this student's records when the parents are claiming the district didn't provide special legit proper special education services that's not the case there's no specific requirement in the law that we have to turn over his records the specific requirement in the lies in history which says we're not supposed to turn  itself or if it's the specifically required use those two words together if the situation isn't required for these documents for the purpose of the grievance procedure no it's not i don't think that's a proper i think the difference is that which i just said it's specifically required when the statute says you have to turn over these records it's not nothing in the ideology ray says you have to turn over records to an employee union that you have to turn over student records an employee union that would be specifically required good morning your honor your honors sharon person on behalf of the educationally relations weren't here your honour's the liberal ations board did not clearly error when it found that the chicago board of education fundamental and obligation as a statutory duty to bargain on fourteen a five specifically prohibits of refusal to bargain and it includes discussion of grievances he has what it does the employer is the union or the employee can get health records mental health records any records right your honor is it there's a there's a balancing of the labor board recognize that the chicago board he has duties under the student stiff if unions cannot get information that is relevant or that will lead to relevant information in a grievance arbitration wender representing their their employees there's no provision in that that requires that section fourteen a five and this is traditional labor law and this is you know your honour's these two acts have been in place to gather for thirty years the education labor relations act which was enacted after the student records act so this balancing has been going on you've got a large educational system that's governed by the leftist education a labor relations act governs the relations between the employer and the employees which is you know i was at tens of thousands of people if you know i mean and you have so you have this disses been going on for thirty years there hasn't been it hasn't been presented to the labor board or as far as i know anywhere else still discover board it knows what its duties are it knows it has these bargaining duties and in grievance arbitration it knows that it he has a duty to provide information enough they don't think they were going to provide the information they said we have we can't you can't force us to violate the this or that that's what they're saying is  things that actually the parties should settle you know should be able to work this out and i would mansion they hear of time and time again given that there's thirty years of these two steps and it's co existing in a very large school districts and so so the parties could could decide and this is how it should work here's how this information is going to be provided in exchange various the right in your scenario you're talking about a labor dispute and in information that the employer needs to defend the disciplinary action where is there in there the opportunity for a parent who's child's records are going to be released to be heard because the the student records act clearly provides for that that's for the board has to be that's what i'm saying when i say they know what their obligations are and they and the scum work yes to meet they have to meet those obligations under the student records act but at the same time they have to meet their obligations under the education of labor relations so the way you think it's been working and there is there is no sense this the way you think it's been working is that the board has been giving notice to parents were on student records are requested and giving them an opportunity comply with but if every time they're going to take and say well this trumps our duty to bargain which they have no authority for section seventeen of the act clearly sets forth that if there's a conflict between la relations act controls and that really indicates the importance that the general assembly has placed on collective bargaining in the early collective bargaining relationship what was louder is saying is there is no conflict because if the union needs the information it has a vehicle to get it under the student records and it need not do that because the employees have and have rights under the labor relations act and all for policing the parties collectively bargained agreement if they can not do the act because they have to run two quarts if they can't really bargain really what this come aboard a saying here is we don't we're we have decided we don't need to bargain here because we've decided to other lot trumps this the labor board did what it is supposed to do and what is it they followed labor law they followed they took into consideration each side's competing interests and the fact that the union made various suggestions for how to meet this this issue now if there are other issues out there if there's some other way of you know turning over parties don't agree on that then for it for instance you know discomforts as you know we're really concerned about this the union comes back and says here's what we'll do here's what we can do to meet this point they have to be able to get relevant information whether or not it's specific records whatever that's going to look like it doesn't allow for no we're not doing it here's what we're going to permits the provision of records now you know the labor board is still going to look yes because they're there they're looking at they're there administering the educational labor relations act how are you  courts are if you're going to you're going to be pulling them into the party's collective bargaining process there's there's no provision in the educational labor relations act for the act and there's nothing there's there's there's no reason to find that the student records act would trump the collective bargaining act because it's and actually the opposite is true we're second seventeen specifically sad as you know and to say that this  the act can be enforced and that these substantive rights that the that the ecb provides to the employees that's what we have to remember too it provides substantive rights to the employees and those substantive rights are not you know the is exchange information so whatever whether or not you know what the arbitrator does doesn't change their duty to bargain you know you have a duty to bargain and i don't know i don't know contemplates but that would violate that i would suggest that that's contrary to the labor relations act and that's where that's kind of i mean if you want to say it that's where i mean that's where the two things meet up that's where you know it's ok so how are we we can't you know we'll give you we'll give you my i don't know we'll give you a paragraph whatever it is and then the parties decide if that's sufficient so whatever debt whatever those records are going to look like it doesn't have to be you know the records it doesn't have to be records with with duties and they don't take a back seat it's you balan's it so you can't just say no go to court when there's the that's not part of the collective bargaining process it's it's not part of the act does not provide for  the court i was involved with this case from the very beginning i'm the one who submitted the information request on the one who filed the charge and now i'm here before you have the privilege of being here before you a couple of years ago clinton cooper came to me and clinton cooper has one of the toughest jobs in chicago public schools he works at hershey will attend the englewood neighborhood with a lot of tough kids and he has a security officer expected to keep the peace at the school he walks a tight rope every day he can use reasonable force but not excessive force and he came to me saying that there were two allegations against him one that two of both that he fought with kids one of which he denied in the other of which he said he acted in reasonable self defen and then he told me and you need to know about these kids these are bad kids they're liars they've been in trouble for lying they're fighters they're always getting in trouble for fighting of course i don't have those records because i don't keep them but i know what's been happening and i can't tell you every instance but i know what's happening and i've heard from my coworkers that they got in trouble for these allegations that they made against me i wanted that information and i thought that i was entitled to it this is the guy's livelihood on the line so i asked for and the board of education on said no that they couldn't provide it because of student crackers i think it's fundamental and in a case like this someone should have a right to defend themselves nobody is saying that mr cooper doesn't the student records act as a mechanism released can be heard it's not denying your client that information it's just saying here's a step you have to go through because there are third person interests at stake as well so that was a decision we made as  union we made the decision do we want to go to court and comply with this procedure or do we want to file an unfair labor practice charge and we decided to file an unfair labor practice charge and the reason we decided to do that first off as a legal reason because legally we felt that we were entitled information pursuant to the educational labor relations act they were also several practical reasons i am a simple labor attorney it makes me incredibly nervous being that in front of three judges i mean nervous in front of just one judge i don't go in front of judges i go before arbitrators and occasionally i go to the labor board that's what i know i wouldn't even know how to go about getting a subpoena it would take an incredible amount of resources from the union to get me up to speed to to figure out how to go to court when that's not what i do also i propose giving notice to these students parents about the release of their child's records to your client so that he could defend themselves in his the union acknowledged that the parents might have an interest in releasing their children's records so as my colleague pointed out in the labor act or is this balancing and if an employer claims confidentiality they're supposed to  be attempts by the employer to accommodate them here there were no attempts by the employer the only attempts were by the young and i said well we'll keep the information confidential in fact under our collective bargaining agreement we have to keep the information confidential he won't use  but part of the reason we're here is to get a decision from the court saying we're entitled to this information maybe that will give the board of education the coverage needs we think the case is clear but go back to your earlier question did we have a proposed giving the parents notice no we didn't and did the broad ever propose no it didn't if they'd made that proposal that would have been part of that interactive process that should have occurred pursuant to the accommodations and so i wanted the framework and i think our brief sets forth the framework as we see it here this is all about the inner play between the educational labor relations act and the student records act because you can do you believe they could be reconciled so that  we think that there are ways to show that there is no conflict we don't believe that the way to show that there is no conflict is a go get a subpoena we think that guts the obligations under the i p l or a that's not reading the two in harmony here's how we would reconcile them section six  is modeled after the n l r a and from the very first year the n r a existed there are these cases saying unions get information that's relevant so i think the general assembly probably knew that in fourteen a five what they were individually a den of fide on the records by which students can be and eventually a dentist and i asked for redacted student records if those records were redacted the students could not have been individually identified you're absolutely right when you say i still would have known who they were but as i read that later that's good records x redactions really all that's required if you go back to that supreme court bowie decision the supreme court bowie decision on the student records act is about a paragraph and it says the records were masked and that's all that's required to comply with the student records act but that was those again the cases that you cite were instances where the records were sought for purposes of research or statistical analysis where and where they were asked for involved and so a court could say yes a limited identifying information will mask those records but in this case where everybody knows the two illinois boy unwarranted invasion of privacy issue and then it agonized about whether maybe one student or two could be a dentist fired it did that analysis for porpoise for purposes of the illinois for it but it didn't do it for purposes of the school student records act which to me at least implicitly signs all that's required under the student records act as redaction that's what bowie said on the other case that i think is a little less relevant but still is somewhat on point is this cut bank decision from the montana know what discipline the kids got so they asked for and then they agreed to accept the information redacted and the newspaper said well go get the parents permission so they tried and they couldn't get their permission and what the montana supreme court said is well they agreed offer another way to reconcile the two to say all right parents here is some information that we have to release you have a fourteen day notice period if you'd like to put a rebuttal in there we'll send that right along to that's something we would have been willing to  act they should have turned over that i think so yes that's all you did yes and then there's there's a million other possibilities as well and he could have done that we didn't get the documents we got a stipulation that both of the kids were disciplined in the past for untruthfulness and both of the kids were expelled from the sense and that's what that accommodation process is for but we shouldn't have come up against a brick wall just saying we're not giving you the information that said that's a violation of our right to information and a violation of the employer's duty  us about the arbitrators authority to issue subpoenas i just want to touch upon that i frequently have employers tell me that or tell arbitrators that they don't believe that arbitrators have the authority to issue subpoenas and labor arbitration i'd say it's somewhat of an open issue but it is an issue law so i think that puts us in something of a different quagmire we do run up against the hipaa issues as well when we ask for our members personal medical information it raises notwithstanding any provisions of state or federal law no president no the ira does not take preceden opposing counsel i would say about those rules of construction is those rules of construction or default rules and we don't need default rules because we have plain language in the act and the plain language says if there's a conflict the labor act controls and we think there's a way to get ways to get around the conflict but if there is we don't go to canons we go to what the act size of the acts are clear that's all i have are there any other questions they were thank you three points one is the labor where did not do any kind of balancing here when we asked them first day they said the student records act doesn't apply because these aren't student records because they're mass that's not a balanc carefully and it makes no sense the time like makes no sense the third level grievance happened in january of eighty seven the arbitration was scheduled in april of eighty seven and the  eight i don't that doesn't make any sense to me the grievance was withdrawn in may of eighty seven the court in first a subpoena more than a year later i think there's something missing there we have to go to court often when our records are subpoenaed by the juvenile court for example i've never seen it take a right just think that's a red herring and i'd ask you to overturn the court's decision thank you thank you very much take the case under advi