hello everyone welcome to the november what is it today the twenty six twenty thirteen planning commission meeting i need approval of the minutes for nov twelfth two thousand and thirteen so m h i was in favor of any communication from the audience for items that are not listed on the agenda you know all right moving on there are no table items or unfinished business under new business we have development plan review for the crescent shore us presidential and mixed use project to be located at five forty five and five sixty one crescent drive and five thirty two west sixteenth crescent shores l l c is the applicant already you have in front of you tonight a request from crescent shores l l c for a development plan approval for the properties they own at five forty five five sixty one crescent drive along with five thirty two west sixteenth street this property was rezoned by the planning commission and city council back i believe it was in january two thousand  the development plan was also actually the exact same development plan you're looking at tonight was was also approved at that time almost four years ago and now unfortunately for the developer at that time we all know that was a very not a real good time for a new development in the area the real estate market was was really just quite bad and so they were not they were unable to move forward with the development the development plan is good for an eighteen month period and after that if there has been no commencement of work development plan does and the the owner is back asking to get the same plan approved by the planning commission so well what actually is included in this plan again you can see on the screen there are basically there are two portions to this development plan the northern part which is basically the bulk of the plan and compass is about two point seven acres of property this is all zoned and then there is a second smaller aspect of the development that's located across the street here right at the southeast corner of sixteenth and so shore drive and that's about a third of an acre and that also is zoned p kind of a mixture of housing in this area along the west side the development they're looking to create for new single family lots and these will probably be about forty fifty feet in width but these lots of be very compatible and in very similar to the ones i located west of them on crescent drive so these would be for single family detached homes in this area here moving east there is i believe it looks like there's ten units and these are more of the single family attached condominiums there's one building that's going to units in it and then another building just east of that that has four units and then we have building elevations all shows in just a moment then along the east property line there is a  longer building here and i believe that nine units proposed to be in there and then there are four kind of standalone carriage type homes is the way the developers characterizing those out in the areas adjacent to the street the little less street network in here it's all going to be private streets  all these units will be served obviously by public water public sewer they're looking to do a copious amount of landscaping there would be a new sidewalk installed all along the northern part of crescent drive along the the front edge of the property there's going to be an awful lot of the utility cuts that are going into a crescent and a sixteenth street in this area so one of the items that are there was some discussion also in the study session about a major storm drain that goes through the property right about in this location here it's that public storm main and that is going to remain because that's a it's a major outfall for the city storm water system in this whole part of the city in the developers engineer noted that they will be relocating that a little bit on the site  thus allowing them a little more breathing room for some of these homes all along the east of property line here so that and then the phase two building would be across the street that's kind of characterized as a potential live work type building so the thought is there could be some retail spaces or offices on the ground floor with residential space above that than they would have parking as depicted on the south side of the building here the developer has asked that this phase two portion of the project that they be allowed to come back to the planning commission in the future with a separate in more specific development plan for that property so we're really not approving anything for this then this evening  quickly just show some of the so i believe these middle docks in here each one of these condos in this area here will have their own separate dock the larger docks on the end are meant to  i'm just going to go through some of the and these are preliminary kind of conceptual architectural renderings of what what the homes may look like and you can certainly when we allow the developer to speak in just a moment you can ask him if these are still valid or if they're looking at some different options for architecture this is this is kind of a shot of what the buildings would look like if you're standing in the in the city park the western end of the boardwalk terminus and then i believe there was a couple this is just a detail kind of showing the the type of materials that they were looking to use and then a shot of proposed a fence detail so this is the quality of the fencing they'd be looking to put in recommending approval of the development plan and we have prepared a resolution that would accompany of this and that resolution does include  in a way quite a few conditions and so far so we're recommending that you approve that and so any questions that are yes or just just to clarify i'm when we have done sort of plans in the and the finish is what buildings look like are part of that is that not yes so what they're representing here is not conceptual at this point it's what they're going to build i guess we can we can ask them you know oh wise we're going to need to do something different because maybe this is a good way to segue to comments from the beginning of my name's my name's rougher i'm i'm one of the developers represent the other owners in terms of conceptual renderings of those buildings in terms of square footage in the size of the actual  very accurate the exact decisions about what roofing materials inside ariel's those things have not been determined yet so mr martin if that's specifically what you're asking about is what materials are going to be on the exteriors that has not been decided yet for example well the elevation look like this when you're done generally very very very similar to what you see right there yes not like us but very similar to well  i think the elevation that i'm looking at has a couple of buildings that actually are potentially three story so what we're hoping to do was provide the market with the flexibility that if someone wanted a three story unit they could have a three stor question marvin wait a second i want to see if ron want to add to anything that marc had to say about the full report of everything was there anything that you needed to add to that or did mark kind of cover everything i think mark covered it all ok yes go ahead ma from south to north it's going to be at the same grade and then as you move towards the north it's going to fall away he's got up a very large retaining wall there that was created when  they feel that what that house there are homes can get up to that grade and so at the roadside it's going to be almost at the same grade and then it's going to travel down to the lake level so will you be then undermining his retaining wall no we would actually be putting material up against his retaining wall and we can bring in that much material all right you have a sense from the top of his retaining wall down how much of about his sales property and grads floor and and driveways at five ninety our property sits at five eighty four so we're proposing to bring in two to three feet of fill for the four single family residential homes that are on the west side of our property so we're there's anyone else in the commission have any questions for ron yes i do so do you have any sense as to what the exterior materials are going to be when you are you expecting natural materials are you expecting a final of some sort expecting brick or stone what's your i'm expecting a mix of natural materials and some vinyl is what i'm expecting i think to get that some of the architectural features that the architect wants some of it's going to happen in the final  a number of years ago when we first came in there there was some concern that they actually wanted an upgraded fencing along there as opposed to what was there now we're open to different alternatives but frankly i think we're actually echoing w back to the retaining wall situation again i just want to make sure that the sales and you are in agreement what is going to be done there that ideally everybody is happy about it and when is it going to happen so i mean what is going to what is going to be done and when and everybody is in agreement with that is that the case we're at now or we're not there yet but i think there's a fundamental issue and that is we've done nothing to the grade we removed the building nothing's been undermined that wall is in the same spot it was before we've done nothing to diminish it we were asked to take the building down and we did and nothing else has changed so i'm a little perplexed about this anxiety the flipside is i have no ability to bring phil to that site because of the flood plain issue so even if i wanted to improve his concerns about the wall that has not been compromised at all i couldn't ok so we haven't heard from the sales have just seen a letter so i guess we'll hear from them and it sounds like i'm not sure yet so i guess we'll have to see if everything's just fine it sounds to me like it may not be but and then the question becomes what we do next i suppose but i haven't heard yet or side yet  the architecture back to marvins a question i know in the in the resolution you're asking us to approve tonight there's a section that deals with architectural compatibility right that is what does it say architectural detail and in the building elevations show b is noted on the conceptual building elevation plans when the project architect has completed the final exterior plans for units five through twenty seven of this development said plan be submitted to the community neighborhood services department to ensure compliance with the conceptual building elevation plans the project architect show also provide conceptual building elevation plans for units one through four when submitting the final exterior plans for units five through seven the purpose of reviewing the conceptual plans for units one through four is not to force or lock in a certain architectural design for a specific a lot but instead to provide guidelines and in patterns regarding the expectations for the architectural design of these homes so in those those units zero one two four again are our plan to be the single family detached homes so so this clearly says they're going to be coming back to fill and i and with final elevation plans and with materials and so forth when that has been determined and i'm you're going to determine if they look like what was presented in these drawings then they're ok that's the way we have it written right now you can change the wording if you like how how different before it becomes not ok i mean this one is kind of from my perspective i mean i've done this a couple three times before and having a somewhat fuzzy set of documents and then leaving it at staff discretion is somewhat unique well it would seem that there is you know a few different options that you can do here i mean one of them you could simply state that you would like the developer to come back with more you know rock solid plans that at the next meeting or some future date  or maybe you could approve the plan and say that you want him to come back to the planning commission and just run the you know the are the elevation plans by you you know for your approval you can certainly craft it to do that way or he could stick with the way the wording that we have it right now so that you basically allow staff to make that call and if we think there's you know issues with with something we could bring it back to you for your final approval to i guess i guess the bigger question is why are we doing it this way this time why don't we have a complete set of documents why is  brought forward i'll use the phrase prematurely why would i say i'm thinking of consing to know that project came in with conceptual plans and they have since come in with specific building plans that th isn't things like that or having a public hearing the public has you know and then someone entitle to know what's going on there is well i think mark said it you know if if you want to where we said where mark red shell said plan shall be submitted to community neighborhood services you can have submitted to the planning commission and you can reveal me at that time with or without a notice on the document it actually says that spell assadi materials the premium final aluminum  border cedar well the materials is less a concern to me as it is the massing in particular the carriage houses and the stuff on the road and you know and i don't necessarily a problem leaving at the staff i just want to have a census you know if they come back on the character houses or not you know eleven hundred square foot ranches two years in the extreme is that different not that it gets kicked back to us and how is that determination ma it's it's a subjective call on our part where we think they've crossed the line from what they showed us initially and what they've come in with the specific design i think if they came in with a ranch where they were talking about carriage houses that would be a significant difference so we take something like that back to you but to define that any more clearly at this point is it's hard to do ron when you say the footprint of all the homes on the designs are going to remain the exact same footprints  except for the single family homes but the larger ones i think mr marks concern about with amassing those are the exact dimensions that can't be any larger frankly the units that are a lot running along the property line to the far east those are identical to what those are going to be the size of the carriage houses those are those are there those are going to be the only ones that are a little subjective would obviously be the single family homes and those are being sold individually and they ca or well we're hoping that they're going to use our builder so that we get out some a tree took the development total but obviously the exact design of the home that they're going to want to build it's obviously going to be up to the individual site so there's no design standard for the development we have we have a design standard built into our underlying master deed and bylaws by it so that there's a sense of continuity with the architecture question so that assuming we give approval this evening and in particular on the four single family houses what are we approving they are just  the the four from which they can build or within which they can build these every century what it is they can't go any further or any closer to the water further or wider than what it shows on the drawings that essentially what we're granting i would think that's yes it's like i mean that's what should yeah except that you have and again going back to your point usually you know when we do these kinds of development approvals year we get down to the level of saying ok where the trees show up on the on the drawing is where the trees will be planted and then i guess a little bit more more nebulous which again is maybe ok but it's just different well i'm thinking back to when we just recently did where basically it was completed project with everything defined and everybody knows what they're getting it may not like it but they know what they're getting and in this particular situation i understand that staff is probably the ability to do that but you know i kind of think it would be very nice if this was had a little bit more transparency in that regard that here's what i'm going to build and here's what you're going to get it's going to look something like this and it doesn't vary too much it you know won't be ok but maybe not that's condo development condominium development form was the ownership as this is i just think that's a whole different i look back to what we did back on them forty there and we had them come back when they change the colors of the rough because it was represented one way and the renderings and that's not what they want up doing and they were being a little bit more lucy goosey with it and that maybe is ok i don't suspect they're going to do anything that's just willy nilly down there but i think if you're going to go through this exercise thank god that's not me and so you know then the public about to see what's going to get built well and to your point and i have a question then on the carriage house if we're proving the envelope it's a possibility where three story could go there has been zero discussion about three story on that both sides you know i think the likelihood of there being three story on any of those is fairly remote we drew them with the anticipation that we would like to have flexibility that if someone wanted a third story that we could build that we want to represent what that might look like on the site  i'm sorry i must be missing something but i'm pretty much done now anyone else have any questions on the co n you know just to chirp in a little bit from the original go around with us about four years ago i mean the intention was was that you know the condo buildings themselves were going to look we're going to look like the elevation plans that were submitted or going to be very similar to that and that they were going to have they would have to come in with a final review  staff ok the intention was also that the four homes to the west here that those also have to come in for a review but just to review t to basically show that it is that so i could be some wacky alter all ultramodern mystic design that somebody may say is not going to blend in with the neighborhood ok it wasn't the intention that we were going to have design review control over these single family detached homes so that that was the that was what we were talking about four years ago you know but typically we would be a know so i don't know i guess i just don't understand what's different about this that we're not doing it like we would typically do ron was your goal for the what is it five through what it what when the media was that also build to suit you said you wanted some flexibility on the number of levels those would be built to suit there are some limitations obviously terms of where the demise of walls are and so on so the likelihood of us being able to change or some of the plumbing and things like that are is fairly remote but the conceptual idea of having a third story was something that we didn't fact you wanted to allow  we wanted to allow and some of this discussion i apologize is catch me by surprise because it didn't come through for you here's a go and i didn't know those were standards that we were supposed to adhere to saw apologize mr martin it almost seemed like you're offended but i wasn't aware that that was part of what sometimes my confusion sounds like a friend so it's ok well you know i didn't i didn't know there was design standards that we had to have built into that application so if that's part of what we're missing and quite frankly that's my fault i think in the past we have approved landscaping some very specifically and building materials and design and elevations a number of floors and the i think it sounds like more concrete why don't you just type stuff here's the question i've got and on how we proceed and maybe it's this i mean it seems to me that as we look at the  that are in the package i don't think anybody here has an issue with those renderings i think by and large were saying if that's what we were to get it seems to me would be happy with it the concern is that you know we've heard some discussion and i'm not being accusatory but that you know maybe it's going to change and maybe there's going to be another story added that would substantially alter the way things look and we also you know have some level of assurance that there is going to be some design standard in the in the condo documents or the association documents themselves so assuming for the moment and it is a bad place to assume that the renderings that are provided to us would be consistent with the the design standard provisions that are going to be put into the association maybe we just simply incorporate those by reference or maybe we hold off  and you know have more things wrapped into this so that we can make a more typical kind of approval as as far as details are concerned with the development i don't know what your timing is like whether it is you know vital that  you get approval tonight versus what two weeks from now but you know you're hearing i don't think anybody is saying you know what we see on screen we dislike i think you're hearing is that once know once we get our stamp of approval typically things are sort of locked in place and this one has a whole lot seems to have a whole lot more moving pieces and parts to it are the potential to do so once approval happens and elevation shall be as noted in the conceptual building plans would you be comfortable for those plans on started going to staff came here so when they're ready to go so he can go out and try to market his project me without any more detail than what we've seen but before he can do anything as far as design wise elevations everything they have to come back here for approval but assuming they're different than what we see right yeah now let's say  hypothetically the developer chooses to build precisely what has been presented to us under what you just said it would be either handled administratively or simply not at all because it meets the approval that we've granted is that what you're saying i'm saying the way i read this when he's ready to go he's got to bring his plans to our staff to me and they're going to determine whether they're compatible with what we've approved tonight if we approve this tonight i'm saying instead of staff it sounds like there's some extra concern about us want to take a look at these that we do it instead which i'm comfortable with you know way and i don't know if that's necessarily what i'm saying is that i just don't have a sense you know i understand that the site condominium the four units that are definitely second minute somebody's going to come and they've got a book that says riches have to be this experience got to be that i've got no problem with that being staff or not even you know my big concern is this is probably going to be great my big concern is that we're doing a public hearing the public has access to these things and one finally goes up and it's how significantly different is it before the public goes with what you just do you know up on the heights that margin was you know that it may be bigger here but i don't know what that is and so i would feel a lot more comfortable if at minimum the design book if you will was wrapped up into this and we know what it was and that we represented that it looked more or less like what was on here and left it up to staff but so like what you're saying marvin it allowing a third floor if we had a design book to show the different options for a third floor in the options for without a third for what i'm saying what i'm suggesting is that he does he may not have any clue as to what's going to be built the homeowner's association is going to have some say we don't have that document and if and if we're going to leave it to whatever we ought at least know what the basis for whatever might be and i don't have a problem ok and i'm probably the staff but i don't know what the basis for him and you know talk just some nice line drawings but they're and then you can talk into the microphone too and move the mouse around a little bit so the the parking in question there are four spots on each of these kind of units here as well as this additional parking that's been provided along this corridor right here so in terms of excess parking those are the spots that at least we felt last go around were were required i don't know if there are standards that have changed since last time we had approval or not but that was the parking that was provided marked f l they enter the parking  for new construction we have a requirement of one parking space per dwelling yet so they are well above that and just to clarify again the garages have space for two cars two cars in the apron or four cur and two cars on the apron four cars in total ok thank you it's a it's a piece of marketing the likelihood of that happening i have i have no idea we want to provide for it if if the city feels like no way it needs to be limited to that because there was a standard a requirement that it's less  problem if he says these are what these buildings are going to look like that i have control them and build on the rest of the site condominium and here's our design book right i don't have any and i may be ok with that but i just want to know why this is different than the rest of the ones we've done from a process point of view that answer question or no yeah i think so i was really just trying to reflect kind of what we were thinking in terms of the flexibility of providing what the market really ques i have no desire to put up three storey buildings and then have them set quite frankly there were times we would do that is if someone said yes i'm i'm willing to pay those extra dollars if that flexibility is more than more than we want to build and i'm more than happy to chat about that i just don't get hung up on if you would walk in here with a design review book that said exteriors are going to be comprised of this this and this material pictures are going to be this orientation to the screen is going to be this your height limited to eighty feet funny the problem is that none of that is know right now and the only restrictions in a p u d or whatever we put on that beauty individually specifically to your project right and so when mr and mrs smith down the road are looking out and they've looked at this online and they go oh that's what it's going to look like and the next thing in next spring when you start to come out of the ground you're different mr and mrs smith aren't real pleased right so all we ask is that you got to have it more or less  it again hey our maximum height is eighty feet fine it's in the book you can walk in the building less than eighty feet don't know that right we only know what you tell us at this point and i have no problem with saying that's your footprint that's your layout all that's great when you start coming out of the ground we generally have a whole lot more information that is more specific and more determined than what you've got get that done fairly quickly my terms of the story that's another matter what i don't know that i don't frankly i don't know there is a big issue because i think the answer is if you tell us what the the the max height would be with a third story and if five people say sure that seems fine nothing requires you to go that high but that that then becomes your ceiling you're building ceiling and if it turns out the market doesn't you know support something like that and more that the two story version is what's going to sell great you're covered but right now you know everything that we've seen everything that's shown up here has been the two story version and it's the whole thing of it's  with with you know much lower height i don't think there's going to be a problem with that just right now we need to know what that top end is and if you choose to go lower that's your choice and the market's choice not anything we need to really have any concern about up here or city is concerned we just want you know we want the public to know we want to know you know what the outer parameters are going to be and if you end up not going all the way to those outer parameters that's your choice that's the market's choice not ours th this does require a public hearing so at this time i will open the public hearing and anyone from the public that would like to comment on this issue can come forward and state your name and address and you have up to five minute five minute yeah oh i don't think oh say oh five so you want to cross the drive neighbors to hopefully that project that happens but my concern and we're kind of concerned about that i was hoping they could bring in some fill in and take care of the problem but what i hear is they can't and i'm not too sure why they get but what i hear is that because they can't do anything i'm assuming then that anything that happens bad to my property is their responsibility and i guess that's what i'm assuming i would be very happy to right but that's going and i know he doesn't have all the permits from the d n r or the whoever else corps of engineers yet to come in here for a permit should he have that first you know i think that and i suspect our engineer friend can a better answer the procedural issue on that but whether it's you started one day and work to the other or whether everything is contingent upon the other you know basically you have to have all these pieces in place before you can start either excavating or moving dirt in place or moving dirt around so you know i i assume you've done something you're least you know the d n r e standards that you don't have to deal with and part of the check off there is that you've got approval of the site plan i assume correct on that yes thank you so the issue with doing any film now so you're in the building that the pad is still there  buildings gone mr sales properties here and his driveway here sits at about five ninety our pad here sits at about five eighty four the hundred year flood plain is way is a dark line right here it's way back here so this this whole part of our site right here is below the hundred year flood plain so we can't do anything on that property until we get a d q permit and a current army corps of engineers permit and that we just met with  mcgregor from trying a murder mcgregor this morning and he tells us that that's probably a six month process to get that permit and we haven't started that permit yet we're hoping to submit the application by the end of the year so we're looking at getting this permit sometime june probably and that's that's when we can start filling that again mr sails properties at ninety hours is eighty four we're going to ask the d q and the cord to fill this portion of the property in about three and fell up against the retaining wall so up to five eighty seven yeah that part of the question that the corps d q is going to have for you is what you're planning to do in this site it permitted or approved by the local jurisdiction right and there is not and that they're not to let you move dirt around for fun or advil for fun they're going to want to know that basically everybody has checked off on your design plans and what you're seeking to accomplish you have as part of our application will ask the city somebody at the city that to write a letter of support or a letter of yes we've granted it's a plan approval contingent on your permits so that go in with their permit application so it's cart and horse we have we can go to  your approval you know you get your approval contingent on all these other permits happening would it be at all possible to get a special permit to get them going there to stop it really i don't know the answer that we have to go to ask that question i'm not going to make the assumption that the erosion on your property away from his wall is real ok i think we can probably make that assumption what is that you could do to make sure that his retaining wall is stable adjoining your property we could we can we can bring sand in you know we could put sandbags there's something to prevent anything from falling down  can't really put fence because there's still a concrete pad here if we take the concrete pad out that makes it worse so you could buttress that wall we could put some sandbags or something there to prevent the soil from coming down i've been out there like that and i haven't seen in my opinion the walls not is stable and one that we have an impact of the wall by taking down the building our opinion is this building wasn't acting as retain edge to hold that grade at the grade of the sales property was coming again here's the deal i got a letter from holland generic say so that's right ok and i don't want to get into doing engineers you guys are neighbors you'd like to do your development he'd like to keep his driveway in one place is there something that you can do in the interim that could make everybody happy happy and get this off the board and i understand that you can't necessarily write his check but i'm going to suggest that something needs to happen here and it would be nice if we knew what that was because there's all kinds of glitches that could happen and i'll going to take for granted that portion of what happened probably didn't affect michelle's property but i've been on that property know what that probably is about and there are few times and i'm going to suggest  that part of what you did on the south side of the building was a retaining wall ok and let's see if we can fix that and without getting really involved so can we make that if it's a temporary fix my comment earlier to paul was you know it's difficult for me to go in and spend a whole lot of dollars putting together our landscape plan and we're matches up because quite frankly we're a long ways from that number one and number two i can't bring the chill out but if you were talking about sandbags to make him happy and and get it to stop i can do that you can do that you're willing to do that when we look at each other and say that's he wasn't too sure about those elevations and i'm going well i guess we really don't know the new way and i kind of you were talking about before what are the really going to do there and i was very happy with the elevation of that shows on the print paul if you were able to see the design book sorry if you were able to see it if i didn't call you ron yeah if you were able to design book that had some features to it that said this is what finishers are going to  for for us would be more traffic even the way it stands right now it's just it's a running joke between my wife and i her it's actually quite serious to a times but this stuff but it seems like with all those people living there in the way that sixteenth curls around and marries up the south shore let's picture say somebody was  just like it's kind of a little niche but it is a neighborhood yet so we initially i think in zero nine or ten when it came up we were in i don't think all my neighbors agree i think  thinks it's pretty neat but i mean if that would become a cul de sac that it be a done deal like i mean i would love to live it at that and there you know but but then i don't know how you do traffic coming in either because of the ways i don't know if anybody can comment on that i'm sure it's been thought up here i can comment on the fifteen that's not going to happen because of state law the state law says that traffic speeds have to be set at the eighty fifth percentile of what the ordinary person typically drives in that eighty five percent percentile people drive in that area or they cannot be enforced so at best it's going to be twenty five in there which is what i assume it is right now mark and you go back to the probably the drawing overhead the colored one probably a  where along the road to near paul's sales however when i look at that i don't know how you account for the homes on the south side of the road it's clearly they i think those residents have been there a long time i'm sure they have opinions too you're saying that people sail down sixteenth street take crescent to sail down the south shore drive yeah and they go the opposite way as well to get to sixty three when they're coming east because you can hop up with sixteen tracks and literally not hit your brakes i mean that turn is almost like a you know he had to get it during the will and then they're going from sixteenth the south shore drive and they're taking that curve really fast if they don't take crest they still go around that curve really fast well they are forced to stop when they meet short if they stay with sixteen herders the stop sign there you know we don't get a lot of traffic from thomas told me about it from b b w because everything coming west says through there and then like a power outage in an example they have generators galore and like they have like three different fail overs and they do i think a really good job with it i'm like maybe we could you would want to put to make sure they're around it or whatever because if they're going to spend all that money across the street it's not ideal i have like a lift right there but you need to put it somewhere else when it rains then it is that it's ideal public hearing stop that there's anyone else that wants to speak if not i will close the public public hearing there any discussion at all well i guess the question is what are we going to do because typically we run through these fairly once we get a motion just very quickly and that's not going to be an appropriate approach in this instance i don't think it seems to me that marvin what i'm hearing you say is at minimum you want a bit more information put into the approval and if nothing else than attaching the the design book or something along those lines you know that would be that would be my own i think we owe that to the public to have that box more defined before you know it disappears into departments and its sounds like something that they could at least pull together the selling and points you know that we could look at in our next regular meeting the first of december i was under so i have a lot of i guess i have a level of discomfort with the process and to a certain degree not necessarily what the product but i think we i think we owe this project the same level of scrutiny we we give it to other actors i guess what i what i've heard from all the co members is not a disagreement with the project not a thought that it's a bad project but just understanding that the eyes need to be dotted to a certain extent of the t's crossed before we give the approval because this is in essence the one chance we get to really do so  so with that it seems to me that maybe the appropriate approach to take procedurally is to simply table the matter to learn next meeting december and i think it is the tenth are meeting  that yeah i move we table the the matter until our next meeting which is the december ten meeting and i'll support that through all those in favor i'm opposed it's been i think the tradition both in the planning commission and of the council is even if technically we don't require a public hearing we have people in the audience who are there for that particular purpose that's a prickly we want to make sure that you know we would new information right know exactly the point is if if you want to talk about tonight show up and i got a pretty good shot of me and it's on line on the city of homs website and then look at the calendar and you can get the whole packet of information  under communications and petitions scheduling a public hearings i just want to raise one thing on the communications and that's really my concern with process i think that if we're going to do this we ought to have an idea as to what it is we get when we get a site plan review i just think we should treat everybody pretty much the same and that the public should have a pretty good expectation of what is going to be out there when they come to us i plan review here at the what they're going to wind up a checklist with now and again nothing wrong with this project but you know this was so significantly different than the last one we did and other ones we've done in the past relative to the level of detail that was provided we're talking a plan from two thousand and ten and now it's three years later well i'm talking about when we just did you know ok and however we need to communicate that to applicants that this is the kind of stuff we expect to see a public hearing for a site plan review and we ought to communicate that equally to everybody scheduling a public hearing first on december tenth rezone of six seventy one michigan avenue from c one neighborhood commercial district to see five professional office service district midwest construction the applicant so they are the same yes i will go ahead and read the next one and then we can do a motion december ten for a site plan review for a new branch banking building to be located at six seventy one michigan avenue midwest construction is also the applicants s happy thanksgiving yes i think happy holidays yes just real quick quickly to a follow up on marvin we can certainly do that i hope that you can appreciate as staff though we we did have i mean this development was approved three years ago thousand and ten and it was approved the way it was the resolution really we didn't change the language in there other than changing dates so that's what we brought to you and so i mean we're here we're hearing what you're saying but i mean we didn't know that your expectations had changed with this development until we just learned that your expectations have changed so  but we can we certainly will tell other people that you know in we routinely always do you know the planning commission wants to in needs to see your elevation plans and is this conceptual or is it art and stone so we  typically do require that i would just add it might be worth a study session discussion to review what it is specifically that you're expecting is it is it a final draft of an elevation or what do you want to mentions on it do you want