items there's no objections we will make that change hearing let's see at this point we will  take public testimony if you'd like to present testimony on any agenda item you may do so now however you will not be able to testify again later on so that being said chairman understand that the last meeting or meeting the four commissioners want somebody a little bit higher up in the food chain of the department of transportation to be here and they they responded back that they need to schedule it and they could not be here today so i can say is i'm really apologized misson and up you know we're all volunteers and as you guys are and it most helpful to us that we can not spend all day with you we would wish we could some time but other items are pressing and we get both of these for that we have distributed a copy of a letter to the editor of the maui news from k c a over a year ago april twenty seventh of fourteen as well as an article in the maui news this year may second fifteen on the same topic on the reverse of page upon reading either or both you will see the topic concerns the extraordinary manner in which department of transportation makes use of available federal funding or more accurately does not make use of them we discovered in april of fourteen that each start with in danger of forfeiting seven hundred seventy one million dollars our letter stated nearly eight million because of the department in action which is department acknowledged in communication with maui state senators at the time we were advised it had been nine hundred twenty million dollars previously so suppose this was progress now this month's articles and now you news invite is a high of the unused federal highway aid was at one time nine hundred forty million dollars in two thousand and eleven and it presently stands at eight hundred twenty million dollars where they said it has and twenty thirteen so if we continue advocating for the simple building of a much needed site much needed sidewalks at this intersection while it's being upgraded and here o t talk about challenges cost we have to ask how much of this challenge is brought about by poor management by the department in addition we are most fortunate this morning to have professional service of our t c a director hecht and next an extremely experienced engineer with extraordinary credentials to offer his opinion on the viability of constructed sidewalks at this intersection while he has not seen the complete project plan j c a has formally requested a copy of that and the county planning department records future use he can offer his professional opinion based on a site visit as well as doing some portion of said plans we appreciate that the commission continues to revisit this matter again and again in an effort to offer protection to south destin's also note the photograph taken by another k c a director of the k t intersection last friday is this background is i'm a licensed civil engineer in a while and state california i have a ph d we have received california civil engineering and civil and environmental engineering i have over fifty years of sidewalks i type highway design to senior civil engineers at san diego state university and i'm also serving as an alternate member on the maui public courts commission testimony is based on three things i did a field review project i looked at partial set of a construction player and i drive by that intersection two three times a week and i notice a lot of  right away on the south side for both the sidewalk and the southeast corner and on the south west corner the south west corner south east corner excuse me cause for a forty eight inch  a guy flattening the slopes will provide a safer that's good for leaving the highway rather than guardrail guardrails are not soft that impact in the papers this morning i think there was a fatality where a motorcyclist forth is adequate right away at this location place five but sidewalk on the south east corner and four foot sidewalk on the south west where the additional four to five hundred foot sidewalk would increase the project cost but would be partially mitigated by the elimination of one hundred and sixty eight feet of guardrail using cost estimates from recent california projects that have been involved and it appears the cost be less than ten thousand dollars how many points with point are streets which this policy would mandate sidewalk at this and finally if there is no placement of inside that's koreans will still cross in a very dangerous place thank you very much you seems that you are pretty proficient an expert in this area one of the things i came back to the way i got from the state was the cause was an issue and based on my estimation we're looking at probably in it by yourself in the three minute thank you my name is mark item the president of south citizens for responsible growth i wanted to make sure that the two letters that i sent they did made fifteen reads retention thank you  comment on to the things the dialogue just occurred terms of you know what power do you have how do you effect change of course under the charter you have a responsibility and the authority and the power to enforce you have authority to find and if you can't get compliance voluntarily i would say consider exercising the powers that you have you were given those powers exactly i believe to address situations like t doesn't want to spend the money doesn't want to change course when we talk about the money for a moment it's not just about the thirty to forty thousand dollars for the sidewalks it's much bigger than that you have data from the department of transportation the signs dollar cost to various events that are likely in my at this location just take a look at that picture the centers for disease control have million residents so we have a very dangerous situation here and as i see it if i were you in your shoes and the reason i'm so passionate about this is that the i don't want the death of a kid on my hands and it's that kind of a situation here and it needs to be addressed and you have the power to do it my courage to take the steps necessary at that thank you sections twelve to zero to dash twenty five of chapter two o two you have the power to fine i think it's up to ten thousand dollars a day from a violation i think to a violation down mark i have a couple of problems with the perspective that i'm hearing the estimate permit relates to the ocean and impacts the ocean sidewalks have virtually nothing to do with pollution or anything that affects the ocean so from the standpoint of enforcing estimate rules it's almost outside of the purview of requirements that would impose on kielty it's trying to do a drainage project in this particular case the other problem that i have is by encouraging and pushing for a more walkable community in this particular location is just my opinion it's encouraging people to walk to an intersection that's inherently date you have four lanes coming from one side four lanes coming from another you have turn lanes that are included you end up with a situation where it's eighty feet across the highway just to get from one side to the other by encouraging people to use walkways in that situation to me is making the situation worse rather your permit only has vitality of some how it affects water then i think you probably need to narrow the conditions if you push with on as it may permits but you have broad authority and that authority was exercised in goods they like commissioners that were here in two thousand and twelve great concerns and i think that that is an assume a permit condition and failure to follow it amounts to a violation regardless of whether or not it explicitly affects the quality of ocean water that's why you have the support of your europe planning commission draws the to take into account all of these public policies that we have so that's my answer to that as to a dangerous condition that is the nature of the beast that we have here and kids being kids they are going to cross that intersection if you think about these neighborhoods quite frankly it's bad planning but that's where we are you know we have neighborhoods without any services on both sides of this high speed highway we've just let that happen there's a gas single at the corner and kids love to go get gum and candy bars and that sort of thing and they're going to do it and mike tells me who lives near the area that he sees kids running across you on a highway even without an intersection to get to the key a charter school i mean that's third world behavior but we're a first world country and there are ways to build intersections and you can have flashing lights in the lot of kids here they're going to be more kids here so i would say don't give up we still don't make it safe for the people because there are kids and everybody going by and it is a popular place so for me the question is i mean is it the county years at the state and that too who's responsible for that this is a state highway right there that's a very interesting question it is a state highway but you have authority under the permit that you issued and you have the responsibility and this is again a planning commission to implement plans in the plans or a walkability sustainability in those sorts of things i would say given the record that's already been built here and even the director of planning sitting here testified at the march told meeting that in his opinion this is a good place for sidewalks now he he said i don't find a violation but i think sidewalk should be here given this record and let's assume a child is killed because they're at that intersection because it's unsafe i think and your counsel can better answer this there could be liability on the county's behalf for negligent design because you got control and potentially damages for reckless disregard for the health and safety of our children and the cost of that far exceeds thirty to forty thousand dollars not to mention the attorney's fees grief i list and all those things that you should put on the ledger when you do a cost analysis you say ok what's it over here what's it over here thirty to forty over here fo million over here for a death i mean come on if it's directly with the testimony that was given we can ask now that something different and we can wait i  counsel heard a lot of testimony and i understand that we have some power and there's been talk about this i mean permit this talk about putting a fine for something that would have to find a violation of the condition which does consider sidewalks and that's why i'm asking the director of transporter the department of transportation the questions you've been asking in errantly there's been documents requested and that's that's where you would need to find a violation as a commission of the condition it's not whether you think sidewalks are a good idea or a bad idea it's whether they have violated the condition it was placed on the estimate permit based on the wording of the condition obviously got arguments they have violated any of information in front of you and once you got the information that you you need the commission can determine whether or not there's been a violation of the condition again it's not a new permit where you get to decide here's the conditions we'd like to place on this permit it's looking at what was already granted and seeing whether or not they are in violation and the authority to fine is actually the director's authority to fine issue fines but the commission if it finds a violation could revoke the permit or further condition the permit and do other other things in addition to that but generally the authority to fine and if you find a violation then you can basically say if it continues without seeing the permit resolved th the director would be under the rules we would be issuing a fine at that point but the the rules talk about the director's authority to fine and the commission's authority would be to review the terms of the permit and if you find a violation of the permit to revoke the permit or further condition the permit but that's that the key that you have is whether or not the current condition has been violated or not and you're hearing testimony today that it has been in there so you know that's why you've been discussing the issue with the department of transportation and you can consider what you have and decide if there's been a violation or not you just said we could further condition the premise isn't that adding something on which you said well met maybe or if you find a violation then if you wanted to look at i don't know it again if it's if you find a violation then you can revoke the permit it's generally with the remedy would be if there's some way that the department would discuss other issues than there are authorities you have authority to do other things potentially if there was a violation found but it's not a situation where you know we don't like the decision that was made the first time so we're going to redo the decision that's not something the commission has the authority to do you need to find a violation of the condition because the department would have needed to have notice of what they were required to do under the permit and then you need to have evidence that they why awaited that that what they were required to do children it's a very dangerous area and i was wondering although i think the state department of transportation met the minimum requirements for the construction of this particular intersection i don't think it met the safety aspect from putting like an overpass where the production's can actually walk safely across this particular intersection because it's a service it reminds me of h two in honolulu next to a high school where they have an overpass where the pedestrians can actually see if it was through the area and i was wondering i don't know to what extent this particular project can be delayed in any way because according to the record it started two thousand and twelve it so at what juncture does this commission have find a violation there are other options but there is no authority to amend the estimate permit after it has been granted particularly if the project's been in bit i can find a violation they didn't follow the conditions but that's a different thing than deciding to take a second look at the same project in saying i don't like these conditions i want to put new ones on them that's those are different things that you would be doing the issue is whether or not they have followed the conditions that are already placed on the permit more problems a project has the funding for the project goes to other projects in order to stay within their budget or spend the money within their time frame so if we impede a drainage project because we insisted that more receptive people willing to approve that they want to put in place a drainage project is necessary if it bloody it should be allowed to see if you feel that sidewalks are very important to this dangerous intersection if it's contributing county streets that are coming to that intersection the county and we should pursue it from that perspective but i feel that we're basically beating on the dead horse we've asked them to consider it run numbers on it measure that they've actually told us how much it would cost they considered it found that it was not within the parameters of their budgetary constraints and so they deleted it while accommodating a whitening of the site area in order to accommodate the test and as well as use so i think we're your head trying to keep up with you guys over here i just got a couple of real quick questions it would appear to me that the only leading question in front of this commission is whether or not the estimate was violated the conditions of the that's the only question that we're addressing  if that's the case and there has to somebody has to show where the violations were if you have the permit this is what i'm following you have a list of conditions and they're saying that the permit was violated where who determines will get d o t here and i'll explain how they think the condition on the permit is as commissioner he donny said is to consider putting in a cycle what you'll hear from commission and i understand they're supposed to bring documents with them to say to show how that is so so the determination as to whether or not there was a violation rests with this commission conditions just go to come back to the commission and often times are they really to come to the planning department and i deal with them but in this particular case it's going to be up to with a certain list of conditions of we determine that there's no conditions that were violated we're not even questioning whether or not we honestly believe it's safe the state said that it's a great and the last time we asked and they said it's safe realize the citizens that are using that the crosswalk are state residents as well as county residents how does this play out in the long run should there be an unfortunate event at that intersection and perhaps corporation council to comment more to the question before this mission and at the time of that moment was not the question wasn't  is the safe or not the question was are you going to put in sidewalks and the applicant the o t said they will consider it and it was clarified with one of the commissioners response the county is not responsible or at least the planning commission of doing projects does not determine the design of the project it can consider conditions to mitigate the impacts of the project per the special management area also objectives and policies case one that that is the responsibility of the nation responsibility for the design of the project is is for the applicant that is coming forward they have the authority to design the project how they dissed how they determine  the planning commission's responsibility under state law deals with the goals objectives and policies of the special management area law so it is the project is miners it's the engineers architects etc responsibility for the design of the project and the safety aspects of the project but surely once you put across wrong on a road once that there years think people can cross this across  crosswalk in doing that were isn't it supposed to be safe that we're talking about a safety violation because you created and then you put people to use and you can just threw it out then forget about it with everything else that connects you those you guys were in here my recollection is at that time we couldn't have we didn't have the power for our corporate counsel the time to actually put a condition on it make them  sigh walk in it was just like two left turn lanes as well we were only able to put in as a with no consideration for them and i was that was at the time and  and so that's right i think that's why so i think as far as us finding something that we are not and that the are in violation i think a commission might be able to investigate and find that and with that maybe that deal he might try a is really just one more comment on that i mean when projects come along we should start we should finish what we started you know if it should be done properly and it should be done correctly i mean right now we're see that funding is an issue with funding was an issue and if we can do the sidewalk or what then it should have to consider because that's a part that's part of the project to me not something else that we don't have enough adequate funding for you know it's going to cost x amount of money you started something to finish it want to i don't know if the director wants to check to make sure all the commission members have all the correspondence related to this from from all the parties i think that would be important because there's been several series of correspondence on that in each member is it on hold is it it's it's continue revoked third the order revoking the permit and the state would have the ability to appeal or challenge that decision in order to actually get in force know that the county would after the appeal rights of exhausted take that take the party to court and seen an injunction to cease the work on the project that's that's how it would normally go and that's we have had cases i don't know of a commission case but at least a director case  where enforcement proceedings have have have gone that way where where you've got the appeals process of course the appeal would go to the commission decision then the appeal would go to circuit court if it's an actual commission decision  but again that would need to be based on evidence in the record and and a decision given to the to the to the state explaining the justification for the revocation of permit and it would need to be based on in violation of the condition which were i think what we could do those we could as a commission write a letter to maybe the director to find sort of trying to you know we vote the whole program to start over and we could maybe you know use our which you know frankly under the estimate a lot of directors are to do that anyway and determine whether or not it's in compliance and obviously there was a compliance report and there's been debate over whether or not the report was adequately answered or even done on time but that's normally how projects like this would go they would have a compliance report explaining how the permit is in compliance and going forward with construction and frankly that's something that would i think assist the commission is a clear clear statement by the state in writing as to why they believe they have complied with the permit and based on that information the commission could decide one way or the other on the enforcement of the of the permit but other than the actual compliance report you don't have much from the state other than the the session at the last meeting so i think that would help the commission there are also document requests outstanding from the state that the commission asked for that i think would assist in making that decision but the director at any time has the authority to fine if the director finds a violation we're talking about separate commission action that is separate from the director at this point and certainly you could talk to the director about that but in order to actually issue a violation there would need to be a finding that there's a there's noncompliance with the condition which would be the same justification for revoking the permit so i just want to be clear the standard would be the same as far as you need to find the violation of the condition first and so what do you determine a consideration to be u s senate hearing or two guys in a lunchroom talking it over and sit or is it you know we considered it and we decided no so and i think the lesson here is you either have to do it or you don't think thank you thank you mr fast and even guess his paul said i'm here to make a presentation on behalf of the water supply reviewing comment on the environmental assessment for the proposed water treatment plant upgrade and part of the team of course is the applicant from the department of water supply we have here this morning jeff pearson the head of the projects in that department as well is our quote who's a civil engineer for th works under chair and handing the project and the planning consult is miniscule and here i go which i belong to and to someone hearing in the press president who was supposed to be here but could not make it and the civil engineering firm a with upgraded facility to pretty produce up to three point two million gallons pretty of treated water with the current water treatment plant capacity is only up to one point seven b n in gallons pretty so to provide an increase of up to one point five million gallons pretty and the project needed is this water plant is part of the central maui system and the existing water treatment plant patrician units were intended to be temporary at their existing site in the filtration units were initially felt about a large tent which has since been removed leaving the unit all exposed to the elements and another important project needed to reduce the demand ground water aquifers and additional capacity is needed to meet future projects population demand and here's the area map i was talking to to give your bearings this is where your w this is what the existing treatment plant looks like this is the filtration units there are all exposed to the weather right now this is the existing three point eight million gallon water tank and this was the structure  i should say how the rest just covered the facility it's in this repair right now so all these units are exposed and this is what needs to be replaced and the commission water improvement and just to give you an idea of either the treatment plant and building elevations what you would see if you're driving along with our road going up towards those why look white and you would see the building contact bank on the left and the back of the building if this is what you would see it's like a color rendering if you're driving on again where a little road and you're looking at the front of the building this is what it would look like you would have of course chaining fence with barbed wire fence for security and then the building in the core in contact thing you would see some landscaping on the front and some trees along the back of the property this is what the back you will look like is pretty nice actually when you see the fence again the back fence the trees and the building and then of course the beautiful backdrop of the mountain the water source is the surface water from the footage and again it's both increased capacity from up to one point seven billion gallons pretty at the existing water treatment plant up to three point two million gallons at this of water has been approved by the commission and water resource management in various parties involved and the impacts streams are taking into account information in disagreement and as far as the environment assessment this is where that the draft was published in march twenty third in the office of environmental quality control bulletin the notice and over the coming period has been as of april twenty second we were still asking for comments of the commission and in this environment assessment there were no biological resources found or indeed species in this the archaeological assessment did not identify any cause for features and then the new current drainage system will be developed to fully retain the increase in runoff and as such an anticipated finding the most significant impact is expected so what happens is after this environment think it's finalized and as paul said it will come back to the commission to review the project district application as well as the final so you have another chance to review this project again and implementation considerations as paul mentioned the project is located within the project district three carolina and there is a project to face the it's estimated about fifty million dollars and the construction is anticipated in some a twenty six the name will take approximately two years and with that that's an overview and again  r the water supply to buy our public water and sell back to us the three point two million gallons that was in a settlement agreement so i have no problem with this project it's been approved by the anyone else but just by this time see no the public testimony is commissioners comment on the project mystery dunny existing facility that exists today the concern that i had over the existing facility is that it has landscape  only landscaping component they use i think its f facility based on what what i see and what i'd like to see is that the entire site tooting the existing facility the landscape properly grass in because they will have enough water to water the the construction of oh yeah you can kind of see it actually i know in this trying to sort of hard to see that there's a great difference so what happens is this site is actually  actually let me to show you the new the elevation have to park in the shoulders outside of the the apartment of water supply the section the existing chlorine contact tank utilized with the existing water treatment plant is a three million gallon water tank is actually set down below kind of in a shell such that we have reduced our visual height of the building to be approximately maybe eight to ten feet from the roadway the height of the building but buildings actually set below the height of the road actually six point four million treated water well each location unit has the ability to filter one point six million gallons per day that's for  treat three point two million gallons but that can be over a period of twenty four hours so based on our peak demand we might have to run plant at six point four million gallons per day for a period of four hours and then ramp back down maybe two million gallons per day for the remaining twenty hours typically to  get three point two or less based on that but that's that's a typical design where we have to account for peak demand during our peak periods to accommodate our also to limit your question to two and then went around and i look at one point seven million gallon filtration system and it looks like it occupies a space point it's already the new facility which doubles the capacity looks like it occupies two acres of land what is the plan for the entire site is there going to be a second parent bill so you have six million gallons of capacity or existing facility going to be abandoned or what is the  if you consider the area that the three filtration units are in this facility over here is only incorporates a small portion of the building then we've also incorporated existing the existing site has a port a potty facility for the operators we now have a rest room over here then we also have outdoor chemical storage where we're going to have indoor this does not have an emergency generator for filtration will be incorporating the emergency generator to allow the plant to function when we have no power standpoint of the value of the land that's been taken down for the project it just looks like operator something and the existing facilities are going to be abandoned so you're going to have a lot of wasted space on the site unless there's plans to double the storage capacity and put a second three million gallon tank in there or something that would make better use alliteration of site at a cost of twelve to fifteen million dollars so i'm taking it you got caught but i'm thinking you could come up with a much more efficient system if that was if that is open space i'm not sure what those lines are where that is right in trenches which is are this force of this plan does not show that there is an agreement with the water department and the developers to put a two million gallon storage tank in here and i think the partnership is with maui lonny partners and cahill lonnie so that's why originally this was  looked at placing this treatment plant on this parcel and it was corrected and said that this parcels already been dedicated for a two million gallon treatment plant that's why we're allowing this  about i want to say about twenty feet because i'm a acl commissioner robinson is concerned on how high that building is and if you can dig in further into the land to bring that down because of the gravity or you can begin to grab is going to weigh well our intake is is up here this elevation goes through the filter in process and it fills the stake up somewhat higher or at the same elevation as the existing water the tank so we could drain this tank and fill the tank so this  is this elevation on the existing the treatment three million gallon tank so was there any look into pumps or anything like that to bring that don't know what the cost difference is that a lot any of that but it's something that you might want to look into further trying to bring that building down if it's not feasible it's not feasible but i think it will be concerned with  corner because what happens is the guys that are going up the road cross center of the center line and they're taking that that left her and the guys down the road need to see them coming and that are pretty much our bottom elevations said based on the yes but in the drawing i saw is you have your filtration system coming up up and going down this way couldn't you offset it it would you're sludge holy mary what is the sludge from that's usually the backwash materials filtered material that we filter out from the raw water so we use  out backwash from the filters what does that mean it went through the filters and it's coming on or just prior to that the process is we take the raw water as what would cause spending sediment and those suspended sentiment to get caught in the filters and periodically and it most likely daily basis we backwash the filters and clean the filters and all that  i don't know if you can turn off the lights you might be able to see if that are accurate height yes it is a i think you can see that the tanks over here what is it sure that height on that side but on the other rendering shows it's much taller than that structure i think it's just based place it in this photograph is best we could but that's the main structure there correct that's correct and then the chlorine tower if you will actually i think the  picture ok so we know what the impact of that is going to be from this side with an artist rendering of course yeah and was there any discussion with the carolina as to what they're going to put up against that fence because this is all housing development on this green area you know we've been working with the developers representatives bri on what kind of landscaping they want you're actually potentially looking at an open space between the or the boundary here and there residential boundary to utilized is just the meek of station there is an open area there that you can pull in several cars and our site here is not impacting that area that open area for  i think the parking area the scene is right around over here that seems to be open to where i parked in hiked up to the cross and you can see the access will be might be considered is the future of that site with the idea of having parking for that access that trail due to the nature of what that trail represents and where l to answer that i think the best place to provide that additional parking or access for that facility maybe when we look into developing this water treatment facility here we or the water treatment tank the water tank here maybe we cordon off an area implement that in to design a water tank to allow maybe three or four stalls in the corner so i'll make sure that that's related to the designing consultant for this water tank too and maybe even at this existing you know tank site and i agree that we need to provide better landscaping currently i'm working with a landscape architect that we're going to use a lot of data grasses and native vegetation such that we don't have to provide your gauge and grow the plants and keep keep the also provide some sort of ground cover i don't know if you've noticed we've we had some well work over here and we've changed our mindset  and it also works for filtration as well you know if you look at we have a well site south of this area we implemented that type of landscaping  clean and it still provides filtration of rainwater groundcover he i think he mentioned a little bit more creative from covering covering so that was one one item and i think it talked about both the existing sites in a new site the new site obviously anything that screening what the fence itself as well as the screening along the shore the areas that make sure it does not i water tank as long as the the base elevation would be higher than the outing but to lower the overall height lower the overall height of the tank by spreading it out and having a larger footprint we get the same volume more or less a lower elevation so we'll look into that with the consultant of the volume of chemicals that will be used and where the dispose will be and if it is going to be in the ditch who's responsible for monitoring the chemicals used thirty second overview on what's going on down there sure the morning commissioners my name is jim buca planning department this is just a report out as weeks i explained in the training last time that sinkhole that occurred behind a an existing sea wall what happened is the sea wall was undermined three years of waves and so the sand behind the sinkhole or sand behind the seawall was sucked out into the become a chronic problem at this location so they are going to dig it out they're going to cement and underneath the seawall just to prevent the water from coming in behind the seawall to preserve the se and temporarily fill it in and we will have construction drawings coming in by may twenty second to remedy the situation with best management practices for the complete t solution that they should be thinking about down the line yes they're required to come in with a permanent solution this is the third one we're working with them to come in with a permanent solution it's going to be costly and they need to address the entire problem we've had just to elaborate a little more we've had seven or eight of these on the west side different engineers come in with different variations of what to do and certainly so there's the engineering solution and there's the best management practices in combination that we're trying to get a handle on how to best do this or wor k with them certainly they need to work with the management there to come in with construction drawings for what's going on  be careful what we wish for i guess