september eighth planning board meeting and before we get too far into it i've got some announcements to make the board of selectmen have appointed a new member to  begin your presentation of what it is you want to do clipper over rover survey i'm here for the applicant miked up de martino od basically you've already looked at the project this is a five thousand square foot lot  presently there is a garage on it we are proposing to build a single family single family house two stories no dormers anymore no nothing just straight single family two story house i wasn't thinking there isn't going to be much to say on it and i was going to let you if you had any questions bring them up  get a version of it and yet on the road lives you know where it's a single i'm not sure how much of it  that this is a new design for this property of initially it was a two family and now we're back with a single which is you know this apple could write a previous applicant suggested it to family but i said the property so i imagine everybody had the opportunity to look at it i have two questions of i'll save them to the end i don't know about you probably haven't had a chance to look the barber pointed out the rear deck of the actual decking material the railing material isn't called out anyway i just wanted to know what the actual materials were going to be in the cave and mention a patio i think on the end of one of the pipe can probably but it's also the material that's going to be made out of i don't know if it's raised off the ground or if it's all just a stone  ok again if you don't like to see that probably on the wherever you're calling up the landscaping by the way just a comment nice packages are a complete package i appreciate that when it comes to us that way even the detail on that that they spent in the attic this but i don't think it's supposed to be i was just showing it should be all for th does not know whether curbs on the home and i just think it would be a nice a look and i'm just curious as to why you wouldn't put a rail system between the two columns on the porch  no window in the mud room and i'm going on that site elevation to me it just looks like the window should be there to kind of mimic the window above and it's a small mud room that just to the side and then finally it did look at it didn't look at from the the pictures of any of the other houses and i haven't been on that street since the last applicant sent us and i didn't recall but there's no granite cribbing in front of this house shown is there any on the street is it something we want to consider when we asked a recent applicant on to the homes to put granite carving inside their homes i was wondering if this is going to be something that we should undertake and that and i know that i think i going clancy that suggested to us when we have an opportunity for a new home to try to add that on the street level again we can we can discuss it as a group but just something that i saw for some missing from  little bit better because if you look at what you're doing see that family one one on one side and then you get the entryway where you get a double there if you did i just think that you have an opportunity to do some some better balancing on that side where you get double units on one side and you've got single units on another side it looks like it it just looks totally different to me now i notice that i see that that's towards the back of the family room i get that but maybe if you put one window there rather than two i don't know what you getting out of that other window and in the front if you had to see it have almost three windows would actually save a window in my opinion and then if you look up stairs you could actually spread those out because that that's a hallway it looks like i don't know what's above that but the same thing you get looks like you're letting the stairway really nicely and you've got one of the bedrooms but that's awk to a side just something to consider i mean i just just i think it's a nice house just fall on the side of the street because it's very does no curves in the whole house other than that i think it's pretty nice you're right the thanks i just i just noticed it now but the gutters and downspouts the fact that you don't have them do you need any kind of drip process go and that we actually have no obligation as a board to bring the applicant back for a second  they got this is not consistent with what the meeting wanted to see this is not consistent with the spirit of the bylaws it's also important when something comes up that is consistent to say right you can be done you do not have to put us on your christmas card list no it's true right if again just for that for the few things that we're looking for i think it's you know conditions right on the draw and i think you're going to think carefully about which you want to make what conditions and which are you're suggesting those are two different categories  simply vote on it that that's going to be included and make sure that jeffrey yeah i think it's easier for amy and everything else here i think it looks just clean  and i've met the family that's buying the property and i can't say that as a neighbor we are so pleased we were here last time as you all were and were just so thrilled and i think there really almost deserves to be rewarded for really paying attention and putting together i had the same sense of that you folks at reading through the package and it was so easy to read it all made sense that it meant all the guidelines and everything we were trying to accomplish here so we're just very very pleased and welcome straight as well and we have the pleasure to meet mike a couple of times and i think because it is such a tape space and it's a challenge to build something there but all the problem stations when it's been very reasonable very approachable sarno also in precinct three on waverly terrorists i have a question is this the first single since we passed the by law i think it is the same now do we pass another single you answer that the other singles were all single by you know by right with just designs i plan review right nobody's torn down to two and put up a single yet d it just doesn't seem like there's enough land there you know that's my point you know so but you know but we do look at those things and it does meet all of the criteria that it's under in many of them but thank you for your comments any other comments them with that i think the only show how i mean quite frankly mike if you want to leave the windows it's your deal you leave the windows my advice which would be you've heard it but but on the other thing is concerned i think he did a great job ok ok so so then it would be the two items really three items that would be to the garage there would be the wooden shutters and they would be the getting the details for  the the deck and railings isn't there a fourth that we have the front door shown as a single door in the elevation but a double door in the plan right that would need to be clear either one but but of the site as jeffrey pointed out for the benefit of those that may have come for the fifteen dash ten one clarke lane design it's a plan review the applicant has requested a continuation to september twenty second  we should and prepared to move this one but i think the message should be there cannot be a string of continuations infill the neighbors are discouraged and no longer come because they get here only to find that looks it's not being discussed so will watch i think one more continuance and and we would probably have a discussion do we expect to hear council oh yes yes before that the twenty second oh yeah well before then he's been consumed with the question will it project and so as and that actually has been modified right to the actual description because we're not we're not in closing the front porch anymore we asked not to construct any dormer so they have come back with a small to come down on that piece of it though it isn't part of his piece it will definitely affect i think my thinking on how it looks and you know the design of it so that we can we can discuss it further tonight if we want to essentially they do not reflect any of our comments about size and density and i have concerns about i think this is  at you know it's interesting because of the footprint of the of the you know it's opposite of what the gentleman said of the new homeowner burch going to where we're going to a small garage to a home if this footprint doesn't change and yet you can increase dramatically that doesn't doesn't mean you get it it's a sara lee but this way and it sounds to me like if we had a vote right now you would get tonight is what i've got is what i'm hearing you know between the lines here but  they have an up and down i think you're far reaching there i think if you're trying to create too much i think giving space for more than necessary i don't think we're telling you that you  says it's fifty nine you know if sixty percent allowed it it's right at the back ok so case in point i mean that's from kind of getting at i think it's i think it's maxed out but i'm going to be very frank with you eye it actually looks like it's larger than it is so i'm sure when it lives out it's going to seem quite large i think you need to to revisit this tree was the third floor i think you need to reduce space and we've said it before if you look at everything everything everything you see here is pushed to the max and it's not the mandate that we were given and not what the g r rezoning is meant to again you know if if if you don't change it and you come back here we both know how long jeffy they have to wait before they come back again two years if you go two years so either go to you know give us something we can approve or that's bath you know depending on how much you shrink it might make the difference in the celts that we look at the the analytics i agree with joe the basement is set up for another living unit and  you know that that's what concerns us the boards you thinking of the economists read application that we approved where we had a much larger lot it was something like seventy six hundred square feet and in the end they had to come in under twenty six hundred and that was for a block that was fifty percent bigger so i mean i think i think you know there are there neat well neighborhoods obviously different even within the g r zone there's got to be some equity in the decisions that the board reaches and that would be another concern with this one it's just it's not consistent with where we with great improvements and designing to the credit of my colleagues where board but i mean this is a i think this is a miscommunication in a way think that you know it's it's information that is out there with one of the boards who's on a board in the planning would do work together so i really feel like you know for me to get a notice in the mail maybe i should've called you but i mean you know and whether you heard it also mike but down and it could something like this happens in the future there needs to be some type of correlation here so that people are kept in the loop so again we are looking at a small lot where there is going to be a demolition and jeffries you know i have a question about that and rebuilding on a law that would not be if it were vacant would not be to family development would not be permitted because it meets neither the absolute minimum size for a permit nor the frontage for a special permit and the proposed building is still in terms of all of my calculation based on the numbers i am using are the numbers of the assessors numbers not living area since that is what people have been paying taxes on it's it's a different type of what i'm saying it's a it's a it's a different type of scenario i mean i think that down through this and i know they've been paying taxes on two thousand square feet of living space they're more than likely living in fifteen to sixteen or square feet of living space because they live on the second floor of the take advantage of the third floor i am i'm not arguing with you i'm just telling you that you know any of that would be the reality so they're living their building and i'm trying to say that i think they're building something that's  probably equal to the space that living in that looks much more attractive than what they're living in that i think is more valuable i'm just trying to figure out what you think is like what we think they need to go because at some point houses get so small they actually become i don't think that they imagine a board or complement a neighborhood or unhandsome neighborhood so i'm looking across the street as i drove by this again today i'm looking across the street and there's a huge you see if there's a set of thomas was there liz i don't know if you drove by yes to the right side of those huge and that's why i was sitting here something that doesn't kind of happen that way again but that being said if this is one of th that floor area ratio takes in if the house if the house were in for him to the neighborhood this chart wouldn't look the way it does the fact that it's coming in in the upper or tile in terms of all of the density measures to me is that it's denser more mass more bulk than most of the neighborhood one one structure ok i'm just trying to clear my own head ok and i understand that with the recesses database says ok but i'm wondering how accurate that database is because we're already run into a couple of problems on the board with with stuff where people had wrong a lot sizes up thomas street for instance went wrong and i'm still not convinced that i mean i'd still like to hear from council as to we know if it's a vacant lot you put not build it to family on this correct we could not give a special permit that would allow because it's under twenty five hundred square feet per unit and it doesn't have fifty feet of frontage so the question is if it's a tall yellow so that means how five by forty three which would then make the units  it can just as easily be put both on the market there's nothing that says owner about this look you know the question is can you shrink five feet out of each unit to get to that the footprint that looking at the numbers this barely gets into the top quarter mile in terms of bedrooms for thousand it gets a little bit further it did but it doesn't even get to halfway through the top or tile in total living area it's about had we i think it's worth remembering that we're talking about eighty two structures so if it's seventy first in floor a ratio it's halfway into the top core tile it's not as maxed out as some other things we have seen that ended up in the ninety fifth ninety seven do we see any place where you could shrink this plan in such a way that reduces it i think at the end in terms of in terms of somebody  living in this place if you make every room ten or fifteen percent smaller you're still going to have the same number of people living in the house and and yet if we want to try to get to what would be  think that's what carl's point is and you're going to get the same amount of people on there i just you get the bedrooms are going to be there they're going to be smaller but they going to be there i just want to help me this one could accommodate i think when when when we spoke as a board you and i talked about single family houses and we're talking about single and single single family house versus a two unit building so single families to me should be twenty to twenty six hundred square feet i think that's what we discussed this is a two unit building so for me just the fact that it's two units i mean what i do it to you in a building him maybe i maybe maybe not but that's not my that's not my decision right here what this in a really positive way if these were two bedroom you would have you'd be able to make it work you take out if you essentially took up the top  car i don't think so is based on what i've seen go up in the time i don't i don't consider this to be a will occur because this twenty five feet wide so to me when we had this discussion before me insisted on the two front doors to me i thought the one front would look better because i'd rather see it look like a single act like a two i think i think for me that works but this doesn't look bad either with the two doors and i think it it keeps is consistent with saying we want to have two front doors for two family house but i would disagree but i'm just saying i mean i'm not saying that the house can't track i'm just saying there's got to be a happy medium where we don't push like the twenty five or forty three and still make this thing with this some work to do but i'm just saying i don't want to go assumption or you made an assumption i think joe that the unit would be units and there wouldn't be a clearly an owner unit which is one of the questions that was raised and i wonder if we could compromise your positions a little bit by shrink by having this shrinkage occur more in one of the units you know you express concern about five hundred thirty seven square feet for each unit on the first floor or each of the two earth and second floors do you think there's a way that if one of the unit more than the other that we could accomplish something that would satisfy you both and still maintain value i mean i think that's that's that's really i mean you know it's not my i'm willing to look at anything  the fact to me that goes beyond what i'm trying to do here i mean i think the first ration with the word tile analysis in this instance is that it fails to pick up those huge houses that surround this it's hard to figure out what should fit there you know you're too small it's going to make those giant structures look even larger i mean as we think about the neighborhood and sort of striking that balance it makes the court on numbers a little bit more difficult to process and figure out whether they're they well i mean i understand that but the whole life i mean but the point of making us the fine a uber hood head of time is so that we can't so that it has some objectivity to it and we don't go back and redo it on the fly because my other  other question i would put to you is that i think it's done to you but that we have to think about as a board if one says ok to this what will we possibly saying no to to carry forward to other decisions in this neighborhood and other parts of the general residence district so how do you make this much building on a very small low work throughout the district what would you say to the next applicant if this is ok you know essentially it would be doing by defining the neighborhood is saying that anything within that neighborhood that can jump and i'm right and it is a little bit like the creep that there i mean michael and i defining a neighborhood this is a tricky one because you have like it's a small house it's i think it's one of the most more unique cases that we're going to run to i'm not saying that there's plenty to families on small lot to small as this is not small ye mean but it's not as carl says through the charts i think that there has to be some type of creative process down here where we can we can come to something where it's not like the golden mean for instance and maybe it's not the fifty three feet but i think think that tom and i don't really like us and i we design makes can make a 's it's a duplex that i said this last time sideways on a lot where i don't think other than the depth of this building and i think i don't think the height bothers too many people i don't think they're with others too many people in the parking maybe outside of the little congested but i think it works for many existing to begin with the issue is in my opinion the way to make it work that we that you could achieve what you just said barbara where maybe owners unit is left intact and the other units made a little smaller if it goes back to a traditional two family house it's if it's a stacked two family you know you get two bedrooms in the first one you can get three on the second floor and kind of achieve everything and not have it be th never inevitably are seen as more valuable because you've got a wall rather than over if this into a did right of the water and i agree with you one hundred percent but this yeah yeah yeah but but a lot doesn't accommodated in what we're trying to do is what we're trying to make it work i'm just saying if we're going to achieve what the applicant is looking for to get it to family back on that lot simpler you know to do what is what they're looking for i think that's the best way to achieve it because this way of just other than other than cutting ten and i'm going to ask for the public comments in a little bit if you know you know you know i don't remember specifically all of the comments that we've shared i know that he made some changes but it didn't go as far as we had suggested some of them i mean you know i think the witness finding out it's a death you know it again you know i personally could live with that speak for myself not just the but i could live with the parking on either side as tight as it is because it's the nature of the two family in this life i think the existing two family had a similar situation so you're not going to and it's all over town that i could live with it's you know you go on from four bedrooms to six but in the same area and that's a big increase in density that that's that's what the issue is i'm just trying to give you another way of trying to get out of trying to get to the place that we're asking to to get to you know in trying to satisfy everybody including yourself no i don't we have that chart bedrooms it's you know it's in the low end of the highest percentage so it's still you know it is you know what you might do with i'm just pointing out that you go in from four bedroom to six and that's a thirty three percent increase in the numbers of bedrooms with the to density issue you know can you live with three bedrooms a one unit two in the other that's a question and my point is if you go to a stacked two family you could achieve that a lot easier than just cutting out half of the attic in the making one bedroom go away because the building doesn't change it's still this long building on this lot  i'm just giving you an option that's out of doing it and trying to listen to everybody and try to get some some form of consensus where we could you know potentially go forward with something like this it's it's  move on but you know  i think what you heard was we need the square footage to be smaller potentially the number of bedrooms to be less where you take them from how you  you know i'm not going to redesign it i gave you a suggestion on how i think you can accomplish it and i think you need to do to go down that route or resubmit something that you think will will change the minds of some of the board not everybody disagrees you know some you know so i'm just trying to move it along so that we can come to some you know end result one way or another and i'd lied like to do it  do you would you just like to see them you know go back to the designer or do you have some joe joe try to get at it with your foot square footage of you what would make you feel more comfortable whether or w be updated numbers so that you can easily slot things in and see where it comes out but no i do not i don't have a i don't have younger but at what i can do is provide the breakpoints and the courthouse and that that will at least give some anchors to the process any other living to offer i'm sympathetic to what you're describing but when you talk about the month monstrosities that are around this site that that is unfortunately what the board has been asked to try  close down so that there aren't any more monstrosities bill and so that's what that's what  i mean i think it is you know the density ball mass issue and trying to wrestle that than trying to find a way to accommodate it i think there are some challenges there i mean i think it's you know this is this present i think how you frame did it i n this small lot this big building and if you say yes to this one which was what would you say no to you know that to me is what i could get away from my big lesson from tonight's first meeting all that sets a to do but i'm not the i'm not the developer on the investor i'm not the homeowner but if i were in his position right now what i would do is i would look at think it's great that he took a fall house in terms of the length but i would probably look to get that to the into the forty some place and if he's stuck on that and i think it's some point to think that number and that's not for me to to do that number becomes counterproductive and you shrink yourself into a corner where you create units by what he likes that probably aren't as valuable that here is if you went the other way which is in just one of the traditional flat style to you know building we to carry a cell from the second floor gave your family a good living area and then cater for it would still be quite nice but that's not my decision so that's what i would say i would look i think i think they have some homework to do more homework to do it i'm sympathetic towards them i'm sure they don't but you know they don't want to go back and do it again it does cost money but i understand exactly where where the board is because let's face it we're setting a precedent  and it's exactly the issue that came to us initially a couple years ago is this undersized lots with these with these houses on a mat would not be allowed today and you know to have an opportunity to totally get something new back you know to not to get it right i think it is a shame to so but if you want to share anything else before we know i mean i'm also sympathetic i think this is probably a very frustrating process i think having me be li 's numbers to see as they play around you know if we remove a bedroom what is that where does the proposed structure then stand if we take away x number of feet off of the back how does that fit in i think being able to do that before you actually iran and other set of plans would be very efficient and helpful and in the decision making process as you figure out and come back to the board and present your plans knowing that we're going to look at this ellis again and they'll be helpful and again i can take everything we've approved and just run the numbers on them so there's that as a kind of standard metric which will help us as we are it it's a process and you know we're we're not saying to you because it really isn't our role to say go designed to this pier you know what the zoning is if you if you look at some of our past meetings you'll get a sense of you know i know you haven't done that in every measurement but potentially be how it could potentially be lived and that's why unfinished basements with four bathrooms in them is can be bothersome you know what's going to happen in that basement sunday that those types of things are unfinished attic that doesn't doesn't have designated is suggesting and design to that killed more than likely you're going to get an approval at least from a list there but but if you know if you if you don't but you'll get there it incrementally that's just going to lay the whole process so do what you can do to you know to minimize its impact and in come back you've got a couple of different ways you can do it and i think you can achieve it both ways and hopefully we can get to where you want to be at the end  use the what's marked existing driveway is that correct no so i wonder if there's a later drawing that shows it but just to this will not be has access from the street already turned out in iraq i walked into the there's a reason that share driveways goes on for a really want time i mean it occupies many pages and the reason it occupies many ages is that there's always a concern that  e shared or i think one of the reasons and jeffrey might is that a shared driveway is a route to essentially sub development where otherwise development would not be permitted and i think that is and again to reflect i think before we did this we would have liked to have some sense and fortunately the c p a has completed a survey of open space and large lots of private land i think we'd like to kind of see how much shared driveway potential there yes and that we could easily do that by looking at that survey which will be presented at the meeting tomorrow or the other is if perhaps somebody at the board knows whether  board has a voice in assignment of addresses i certainly do not and it's and therefore we probably don't wish to express an opinion about it tonight unless there is i mean this is this boy this inside going on it has never been asked to even look at something like that so i would be having i would rather not talk about that tonight unless there's a strong feeling that we should i would i would defer to the selectmen and have them tell us who that's my question yes ok i guess the only other comment i had was we not we would now have three driveways on what is now five forty nine concord avenue right i mean there's this and i was wondering the same thing and i understand entrance into the driveway but could there be potential you know modification of that relief parking to access even a lot d or or elsewhere up on the hill that there was a lot of space still up there i think that's a concern i mean so if you're willing to have a condition that no further subdividing of ly d happened you know is it you know is it smart to suggest that there's a condition that that second curb cut couldn't be used as a a for a future shared drive or over access road to somewhere else start looking at you know what happens it raises interesting questions especially if you change the address and does that change your frontage has sung or lane and so those things are all in place the concern about the driveway change the address changes that people are already confused you tell people you live on conquered avenue you know they come to the corner of the driveway in this brand new street sign that says on their land i've already had three or four people try to find my house and they can't find it because it's not on conquered haven't you apparently it's now on summer lane so it's happened several times already i'm really concerned about it happening in the event of an emergency particularly with a new lane that the fire department police department ambulances don't even know exists yet etc it's not on anybody's g p s currently you know so my concern is just a practical matter of to get to five thirty one concord have you or five forty nine cochrane and you have to turn on rubber survey i represent joe de stefano he actually has no problem with mr copas utilizing the number however being that the old house has had its address since one nine hundred twenty seven he therefore that he's well right so therefore there's like a there's like a portion here that doesn't even know that the property line isn't a summer lane so that it can't claim frontage because it doesn't isn't even on meant by wearing was was that if if the board of selectmen ask us to take it up then i think we should do that if they take it up then we should probably be there to suggest any any issues but i think i think tonight focusing on the shared driveway aspect of means you can do it and do it right if it had to be done but  eliminate that but if if you're going to do it  like to make sure that they agree that they can make those turns comfortably particularly i mean they can take a look and we're having the conversation here as well so if so just wanted to provide that answer the driveway actually does need to work for safety and for care and that's in the plans to be done th actually while you're there i mean so just a concern we talked about you know having a condition that light it would not be further subdivided up built upon it i mean that would be a condition that we would put in the shared drive has to be more than happy to have that condition and there's no intention of that would take that i normally sit down for for town engineer and i just want to get you know you know i think they deserve a formal answer if it comes back to us that we can we can we can do that but those are those are my questions i  have a question about the the detailed layout of the proposed driveway easement it looks to me like it goes right into the tree that we saw in the photograph that's so there are provisions which are filed with the registry of deeds as part of the protective covenants for the properties that the historic trees cannot be touched as part of the process and and i assume then that pacific trees it does it does yes it does absolutely it's the same covenant separate check the view easements for the property so and so my question ok ok thank you i can't think of any of the questions that i think you know those conditions would it solve a lot of problems in liz was right that this shared driveway by love was not intended to you know help with develop it was and it was intended to do the things that it suggested in other other developers of a vast offline you know if i do it's your driveway i get extra b i guess it's not and not on that particular diagram but the one behind it and just come up to express my favor of this solution i think that it protects the historic landscape and it also  prevents you know cutting into the the wall either on concorde or on wellington lane which i think would actually be a bigger problem in the sense that there's already a number of driveways on that on that lane so very much in favor twenty eight wellington lane lots believed in the one on the site also in favor of this i think first of all if they had to build a driveway they would come willing to lane it would not be possible i can say pretty much for sure i'm trying to build one coming into my into the lot of twenty eight well into the you know and the steepness is very high not to say the cutting wellington lane one more time i think that wouldn't be if let's say you had to go through wellington lane to get yet so their house so totally in favor and obviously keeping the trees because we're cutting many to build say that because these are the things that we have to i'm learning because i'm building when you add more pavement i think that was mentioned the retain you have to have retaining the same retaining system for the water storm water right so and the requirements of the size that increase tremendously and that means a huge amount of escalation and that can disrupt even more treat anybody else would have been a big deal to update that and get back to us on the twenty second and we can give it a blessing does have an alternative legal driveway location available to me it may not be as desirable because it goes to the stone walls but there is an alternative that that that's because the shared driveway is a sensitive area because it is the road to uncontrolled subdivision and so establishing the conditions here make that don't open the door for their shared rattlings look a lot more like subdivisions would be an important thing for him but but what i put with the board that was true saying though is that while those alternatives may exist the preferred driveway is it ok you know i didn't i wasn't following you while you and somebody in there is two and the other properties are land locked one of the clearer than any permission for shared driveways where there is an alternative the board may choose to do this just to don't think it's just now and that because of the great difference is that they would have to over excavate remove those trees and shrubs that's the way they could get to their fifteen percent slope would take a lot of excavation and fill with the three that's  it felt great because if that isn't true then we're setting a different kind of precedent and we should not do that accidentally then again on installation and running of the new equipment so that we could measure the difference and if it was worse they were going to mitigate it and i haven't seen anything so we did get that information and i thought that that also would be  conversation of both sides of it's interesting and i know it's early in the process but it's something to keep an eye out and i bring it up because it could affect our planning on saddam wasn't stree with the square clearly you know promoting you know more that the development around fresh pond is so dense that they're seriously considering adding a commuter rail stop right at hale somewhere