his very thin declaration falls far short of meeting this court's requirements for demonstrating the document is a print publication there's no explanation for why mr foti was looking at the i e t f materials in the st place there's no explanation as to your honor your honor if you look at the case law decided by this court on this issue there's always a critical mass of the interest of the public that the record evidence shows either had actual access or would have found  documents and this is more than just testimony this is a document corroborating testimony that the document is a pre publication with the document itself completely ariss the requirement this court held that because there was no evidence of actual access by the interested public and there was no coherent story as to how a member of the interest the public would have stumbled upon this grad students personal web page by this article that's not satisfy the strictures reference and this is not an index in case there's more did not rely on cuban being indexed are clearly searchable with an internet too isn't there a patent application that had been published two years before the patent applications that discuss particular publications like this publication why isn't that sufficient to prohibit publication publicly accessible mean that corroborating evidence doesn't have to perfectly aligned its we see with the primary evidence right i mean there's some rule of reason that applies when you're looking at  certainly very highly relevant so it's killed artists and that was thinking about this technology would have found that when they did they would have seen cuba your honor even if we can believe mr phon conclusory statement that people knew about cuba they're still the cuba article itself and there's no roadmap to how crisp it actually now that we're talking about a pretty publication a document and we need a road map believe it was the mit case there was a conference with a poster at a conference five hundred and fifty dollars to five hundred dollars people were at that conference so there was people so there needed to be evidence that people actually looked at mr foodie's printed that if their evidence in a critical mass of anderson public who looked at the patent application and knew that hew bone technology he was talking about have a specific article attached to it and that those interested  it's the cuban reference that mr foti obtained in two thousand as he testified in his declaration he then utilized that preparing his patent application as sort of the base and added on to an additional disclosure describe you had a salesman that went to a trade show picked up a copy of that reference it was corroborated because he gave it to his colleague who put it in a file here we have mr foti going to publicly available website downloading a copy printing it it is a little different though because in that circumstance they were just talking about there were presumably multiple copies available for anybody to take and the person took wine and then it was a copy of this crap here on the other hand the concern that i hear being expressed by your opposing counsel is that mr sodhi himself may have been the only person in the world to find this how does mr foley's finding of this reference show that it was publicly sasebo and not just something that he it was directed to the internet to organization believe it's maybe not directly in his testimony but it's through the e t f document that reference the internet to website which is attached a reference to his declaration tell us why go is the claims all golden as set forth in the decision as well as in our briefing golden provides on demand band with allocation through desired route which is exactly what the claims are about you know instead of having a dedicated line that's only used for one set of parties it al out of that band with to be switched between parties depending on who wants it in response to requests golden provisions that line with the amount of bandwidth and it may be done with a predefined path the board was correct in reaching their decision concerning the construction of dynamically provisioned and found that you know he did not exclude the use of predefined as so i think you know on that basis it has that an additional aspect in addition to the voter verified type situation where we have that the website  testimony concerning looking at the i e t f documentation and its reference to the band with brokers in the cuban architecture and referencing that that working group is part of the internet to organization but i but what so here's the problem i mean too was a website that people skills go to the internet to was it were a well known organization working on the cuban architecture basically demonstrating how well known it was mr foley justify the internet to housed articles relevant to that kind of research so the internet to organization was known but demonstrated by these articles corroborating mr foley's testimony what can you tell me where in the appendix that we find that was that the internet too was this  which directly referenced the internet to working group as well as provided u r l we also have this additional totality of the circumstances evidence that internet to existed as organization it was relevant to research in space there was references to it in other research organizations the i e t f which at the back of that document list a lot of recipients that are part of that organization and so based on the totality of circumstances this is what people are skilled in the art were doing they were looking at this kind of information that's what mr foti testified to that's what brought him to looking at i e t f documents and ultimately to the internet to website with juba describ architecture if i if i may switch to actions by the patent office that i think also demonstrate public accessibility consistent with this court's decision in brooklyn meyer and the published but it had left out figures three dollars and four dollars related to heating the ground and the court determined that there was some discussion of heating the ground in the printed document which would lead a person scaling art back to the canadian patent office to look at those records i submit that this case is very similar there's information that is described as being present but it's expressly recognizes it's not present it's incorporated by reference referencing another document it would lead that reader back to a resource no one would be the u r l site for internet too but a person is going x not a robot if it's not there they would also know let's look in the patent office it's the repository for information so i submit that this case also reason i ask is do you think a lay witness could offer the test and so so the smoking gun in a case like this is an expert witness who says one of skill in the art at that time would have found this reference here is the websites they would have gone to that are relevant you know that's the smoking gun and what you have instead is the slave witness that says this is what i did he actually says in one paragraph that he thinks a skilled artisan would have done something but i actually under of evidence seven hundred and one thousand seven hundred and two i don't think a lay witness could actually offer such testimony about what a skilled artisan would have done so i guess i'm kind of questioning whether whether or not you agree with that we certainly have cases that say only skill in the art so he can testify about what others would know i don't think you need to be an expert to talk about what others in your view old would know or do because that's his experience he's experienced in searching and locating this information that's that's in his declaration that that's why he was doing a pedophile like that goes do you remember what seven i wanted seventy to say if you're going to offer scientific and technical knowledge in general that you have to be an expert to do it if it would if that's why you're offering it to assist the tire experts offer expert testimony it certainly but his testimony is corroborated you know he did in fact have it he found that it was located on that website the u r l is on the exhibit the date that it was printed june two or anything else i mean a fact that isn't being a poser person who actually qualifies but they're just a fact witness and they talk about what a pose it would know after the golden reference the fundamental issue is that the board found credible this idea that you could upgrade the terminating endpoint into a host which golden to say you can do and you can further infer from that that there would then be a communication path from the new upgraded host to the controller what would happen if you did that is that the upgraded host would tell the controller i need a channel the controller w there is simply no aero between the could between the controller and the terminating end point for the upgraded host and cuba would simply never do that because cuban doesn't need to do that because all of its channels are pre calculated the euro doesn't pads require that communication from the controller to the terminating end point because the controller needs to calculate all of the parameters of the network in order to the iridescent patterns the host you're getting an original end point communication the controller the controller must communicate with the community and so that it can then construct the channel on the fly dynamic provision the path and then at that point the originating endpoint in the terminating endpoint communicate by that path in gold in that never happens there is one communication host the controller the controller communicates