relax the standard of a law in the government to establish the fact of conviction to holding that the government to a relaxed standard and yet it would not make sense to hold the government to a more rigorous standard in the second step of taylor given that the language is that it must meet a rigorous standard and i think the language of marcus is clear the judgment abstract is not the judgment of conviction and i don't think it's limited information is the beginning of a criminal matter how it is resolved later on to a lesser you know i'm sorry that's wrong that is the beginning of a criminal matter it's true but juvenile court proceedings are started with titian's in the juvenile court not play information is in any court nor are the completed by an abstract a judgment in any any court they are not findings  that i'm asking you how it can be a juvenile matter if it's in the municipal your honor i don't know but the government doesn't know and neither does the lower court given the absence of proof look at the california law and you will see that juvenile think what we're doing is engaging in the many trials that tailor our wants to avoid i don't i think what we need is approved documentation i actually asked you a question if you don't know the answer which is perfectly fine but i don't know the answer either you documentation that allows us to reach that conclusion there's no evidence whatsoever in the record that indicates your honor in the suburb is that your position well there is no such evidence i'd like to analyze a governor i don't see evidence there is evidence but not approved evidence your honor what was submitted by the government was a theatre of standing evidence and wrecker you tell me there's not i don't see any that meets the standard under franklin your honor the second legal heir was in establishing the fact of conviction there is any there is a threshold matter that must be established by the government and it fails in that matter evidence was submitted he was transferred to adult prison when he turned eighteen and times of the thank you for your government properly relied on those three documents the information the abstract of judgment and the statute itself to find that the defendant had a prior conviction the information listed that the defendant w you see where it points out you're now you know i don't know what people crime on a child under fourteen has to be tried as an adult yeah yes and that that that statute was not applicable to defendant here as you know i'll concede about midway through that page an excerpt of record sixty seven the court's or rather the defendant is allowed to petition the court the court of the criminal jurisdiction of adult court to see if that juvenile may be remanded to the custody of the california youth authority after their sentence so there i'm sorry the remanded for an evaluation to see if rebuilt haitien will be appropriate for the defendant in the california youth authority to serve their adult time in the youth authority and apparently from the minutes these are certified time of the juvenile their goal time your honor the court have the discretion to either commit them to the bureau of prisons or to commit them to the california youth authority and and from the abstract we see that the defendant excuse me the court did commit him to the california authorities but all of the other documents the court and all the other documents of the court has before it support that this was an adult conviction as an if i you know i there's nothing in this for the committees without that's true but what is it that the media has you have to have clear and convincing proof in this record i mean the fact that some of us know something about the way the court of california after all is not good enough when you're on it you need to have evidence from the record first of all after booker it's unclear whether or not the standard is still clear and convincing evidence however  this evidence does meet that standard