to believe this was ongoing because she was continuing to investigate and was still investigating and remember that the age of an informational man doesn't necessarily mean it's dale but then when she reported that to the office s detective bond would hurt her mitchell contacts he confirmed that mr carmen did not have a carrying concealed weapon permit so she then agreed want to take you back a step and to see if i understood your position on whether agent had reasonable suspicion to stop harmon at any point regardless i mean from kind of vocabulary all the time that this wasn't some scumbag guy off the street this was an official source on a government agency i'm happy to to some reliable informant carries with it all kinds of garbage in this case does agents went to arrive she informed the officers that even if you were with customs he was not allowed to carry a concealed weapon even by customs so when he was confronted with that in this economy and kept saying well i'm a private investigator i'm active on the case or i am a guard and none of these your honour's i'm joe golden i represent john carmack i looking at your questions and listening to your questions i i want to quit the case in context for you if you look at the greaves you'll see that at one point in time the defendants in this in this matter were numerous many of them were customs officers mr carman did work for customs he  reported corruption in customs he was retaliated against those were her as well it's a different case in about two miles where the allegations in this complaint i mean i put it in context because you know your context is wasting time i hate that i hope you don't take this criticism but you better get to the issue because you are nine when it's last the last act was the stop i didn't mesa police department acting under the authority or directions of customs that's the told officer burgess who made the stuff the following i informed officer burgess that mr carmine was in his vehicle so that officer burgess could follow carmen until he had probable cause  that carmen told customs that he continued to carry credential in order to carry a concealed weapon for why things passed that information on to law enforcement law enforcement then fall of the guy ran a check on his license plate which confirmed that he was still representing himself as a law enforcement officer despite the fact that he was know he deny that you know this is just reasonably serious stuff there's a long history in california of people masquerading as law enforcement officers kidnapping murdering people and this is not some technical thing about somebody's violating credentials go back and read the whole side strangler case there's a lot of these things people on the loose with credentials and firearms approved a very dangerous so doesn't surprise me they went out to try to stop us well i understand that and so then they find this phony license plate i understand what you're saying but i believe that the entire case basically shows that they were customers it was a retaliation against him and i don't think they did this that was the problem because retaliating against him for using false credentials and carrying a concealed weapon when he didn't have a right to use one that information was deny to having been made by mr carmen and even that information was seven months old well they have to really be you know maybe even protect some reasonable conduct but it has to be so clearly off when it is the objective standard when an officer is told by his supervisor and when the liaison person who the mesa police department who got all the information from customs says to the traffic stop the officer don't stop until you have probable cause to make a traffic stop this is just a bunch of police officers it had something but i think if you look i'll read it if you're wholly intractably that's what focus on the question is independent of the traffic stuff independent of whether they thought they had to get probable cause were there did they have reasonable suspicion he had carried a gun on them and was still right but i think for these defendants we have to measure what they knew and then by an objective standard i would reasonable suspicion to stop the car well because if i believe it is i believe that the stop made by officer burgess if that was all th the third thing i forgot to add again is that they had just confirmed that he has law enforcement plates and they know he's not a law enforcement officer well what you're saying is that whatever customs would tell the lamaze a place they should rely on because the law mesa police don't know anything about all the stuff you're telling us about now they're just a bunch of police officers being told by the federal agency this guy's masquerad a law enforcement officer carrying a gun he has no business doing with yourself in that position you're a local law enforcement officer is it not reasonable for you to respond to that information coming from a federal law enforcement agency especially when you run the find you know first of all that the guy's concealed weapon permit is expired and then you run the plate it turns out the guy's using a plate that he has no business using a federal law enforcement place and is a reasonable police officer i think that i think he had to be a traffic violation to stop why don't you think there was reasonable suspicion absent a traffic violation reasonable suspicion from just what was told right tracking of the license plate right well i think that the i'm not sure i think the cover on the license plate can have other aspects to it other than being a law enforcement officer he was a private investigator crime investigators can i mean you can't for example i mean if you if your case were we got an anonymous tip that this guy was carrying concealed