all the way up here from montpelier no problem yeah i'm really glad you're here because we have a lot of things to talk about in this half hour we do we do i mean the a c l u is doing a lot of great work and the a c l u a c l u vermont is  some of the highs and lows i guess and just celebrating you know the work of some of the founding members who fifty years ago came together at a time when the country was really divided were civil rights were really e from that initial seed has been is pretty remarkable and we're going to talk about that but you know before we go there i'd like to learn about you so because you're new to the job you've been there for a couple of years right just earlier just over here and i seems like longer because i feel like i'm like i know you like a brother or going along your mind but it has been a long year but i feel like you've been here all along time you've done a lot of great work which we're going to get into but talk to us a little bit about who you are where you come from a little bit about your background and why you ended up in the social justice work because you are a lawyer yes you have your law degree from georgetown georgetown there you go when you could have gone into private practice and so he made a lot more money than you do is the own to school in vermont my family in vermont so i've been what brought you to school in vermont where'd you go in vermont remember in college you say you went to college in middlebury ok your military grad trade my father's them or my last twenty years so i've been in and out of the state a lot  that i graduated from middlebury it was back in two thousand were to go to law school going to georgetown so was it you went to law school and were you following this social justice path or were you pretty much are going to be what was your did you specialize in anything in law school that will so i graduated in two thousand with law school in two thousand and four and it was of course around the time of the bush administration and the second bush administration and nine eleven and the response to that in the so called war on terror the creation of the department of homeland security all of this stuff was happening and i like many of my classmates in law school were really concerned and saw a whole lot of government excess and abuse and trampling of civil rights in this country and really around the world and saw that as a real threat to human rights and we did not like that and saw it law school is one way among many but one way to try to  counter that or respond to that and you know i think is just consistent with something that i've always had just a kind of an aversion to the abuse of authority and certainly saw that coming from the bush administration and of course we are certainly seeing that now with the current administration so that i mean that's essentially what the law school and that's why they say oh you made a lot of sense for me this is an organization that specializes in holding government accountable if you know if i had to justice were protecting people civil rights no i mean i was raised by you know good decent people with good values but you know i just think i have personally always had a visceral reaction to injustice remember that from an early age happening now at the at the federal level with this administration just a real concern of you know the abandonment of core american values and laws that were really under attack after nine eleven that are still very much under i defended immigrant children who are in deportation proceedings a lot of people do not know that immigrants are not entitled to an attorney when they're facing deportation in removal proceedings that includes children that could include infants do not have the right to an attorney unless it's provided for them by an organization like us brenda and of course people without legal representation have a much harder time succeeding winning their cases so i represented dozens  of unaccompanied undocumented children won a lot of green cards and then eventually moved on to the a c l u in arizona before as a staff attorney before coming here last year to be the director of the vermont affiliate what a great journey yeah it's a great journey it's been an adventure and now you've landed and we're really lucky to have you i can't believe it's only been a year ok so it's great to be here is great to have you  so let's talk a little bit about the a c l u and the history in the mission for my viewers out there odd see american civil liberties union it's a c four right did you say was a c four or we have a c four and a c three three we have kind of our lobbying hundred there and yet to be a single free speech case decided at the u s supreme court the idea of free speech was really nonexistent it wasn't recognized by the courts and the general public was didn't have strong opinions or or were outright hostile to the idea that people had free speech rights that union workers had free speech rights we've gone a long way but we have and you had a huge role over decades in changing that you know eventually first shifting public opinion about the importance of the freedom of assembly freedom of speech of the first amendment protected rights eventually bringing more and more cases to the u s supreme court to establish free speech rights and of course you know today it's a very well established right but it hasn't always been that way and i mean that was one of the key fights at the outset but in the years since over the you know the almost one hundred years since then the a c l u has broadened its cope really to take on anything that comes under the purview of the bill of rights and constitutional rights we work every day in courts in legislators in communities to to win the next in the protections possible under the constitution for as many people as possible for all people for all people regardless of background regardless of ideology income income nationality really any characteristic the in vermont and nationally represents people across the political spectrum from all walks of life really as i say to to try to maximize constitutional freedoms and to protect people's rights when they're trampled on or threatened by government actors that's what we do that's what you do so highlight for me so let's talk a little bit about the a c l u vermont that's fifty years old you're celebrating this saturday what over the last fifty years were some of the big issues that you had to face in year ago i've been studying up on the history of the organization and also in preparation for this our fiftieth year so i've learned a lot and it's a fascinating history i mean a lot of people don't necessarily remember or realize how far vermont has  founding the a c l u joined a legal challenge to overturn vermont's ban on abortions a major reproductive freedom victory in one thousand nine hundred seventy in the years since as i say we've represented people from across the political spectrum we've represented police officers who were fired for criticizing their superiors we've represented postal workers and marines who were discharged because they were pregnant we've fired i mean we've represented students journalist people targeted repeatedly targeted with excessive use of force or racial profiling by police we've represented prisoners in class action lawsuits challenging horrific conditions of confinement in vermont pr s we've had some day we've had cases go to the supreme court one of the bigger cases here in vermont at the monster priem court was the brigham case which essentially led to the creation of the vermont school funding system which is one of those now one of the most equitable school funding arrangements direct six direct sixty in the country something that vermonters are rightly very proud of so you know they say we had a hand in all of that there was a time when school teachers weren't allowed to be in the direction of the state when it comes to constitutional rights and civil rights and you know i fully expect that we will continue to have a big role to play because as far as we have come in those five decades it is also very clear that we still a very long way to go to realize you know the promise of true justice and equality for everybody in the state well and certainly nationally right now i mean with what's going on all right ye their website and make a donation if you can access a website or don't have the ability to access the web site the phone numbers eight zero two two two three six three zero four also if you have something you want to talk to them about that might be happening in your life that you think they need to know about so there you go that's the contact information i'll bring it up again later in the show let's talk a little bit about what's going on a couple things in burlington because i know i've been reading about that that a couple of the issues that have been going on in concerns about some of the actions undertaken by the city of burlington in recent years with regards to the homeless population people living in the city many with substance abuse problems mental illness  and you know we absolutely recognize the city officials and the residents have have serious concerns about public safety about quality of life and we do not for a moment assume that these are easy questions or problems with easy answers that being said we do have concerns about some of the responses proposed and pursued by the city in recent years we have one pending lawsuit against the city of burlington on behalf of a man john tag know who after years of homelessness finally found housing in the city and was wasn't very good housing he was being harassed by his neighbors he suffered assaults and break ins and the sorts of things so he was calling the police a lot and rather than assist him or get in touch with them to work through the fact that he was calling the police an awful  lot the city went behind his back to his landlord and had him addicted and he found himself back out on the street after years of homelessness he was homeless again and this is this is essentially something that well it's something that we've seen in other cities and towns around the country where using new nuisance ordinances cities will essentially intervene to have people addicted if they're calling the police too frequently with one of the problems with this is people calling the police frequently or often doing that for a reason that includes victims of domestic violence we had a close so you had a client in arizona was a victim of domestic violence who was calling the police a lot and rather than help her they had her addicted so you we reached out to the city to try and resolve that and unfortunately that that didn't happen and so we are litigating that case more recently i mean currently the city council is considering a  proposal to possibly criminalize some low level code infractions repeat violations of things like littering or public drunkenness which i mean again we recognize that there are real problems facing the city of ground or death or something like public urination or public drunkenness is a civil code violation it's not something that's going to yet result in prison time and essentially the city is considering changing that to get a criminal is and it  nowhere else to go and they're being threatened with eviction and in the process of being evicted their their belongings are likely to be confiscated or possibly destroyed and so we've community can communicate our concerns about that to the city about  you know the criminalization of low level offenses and again we do not for a moment suggest that these are easy problems to solve but at the same time it's clear to us that there are limits to what the city can do and they do not include violating the constitutional rights of the homeless population that's where the a c l u is going to get involved and you know we hope that we can work with the city towards real solutions recognizing that that they're not easy to come by but i mean the fact is cities and towns around the country have been pursuing of creative solutions to try to get help to people in need  and city officials are pretty forthright about the fact that we need to address the root causes of these problems that we need to provide better service as the governor has said this recently and we hope will follow up on the promise to improve mental health services there's clearly need as many services as there are provided currently it's clearly not enough the city should have to figure it out all by itself but one thing they can't to is violate the constitutional rights of its residents an issue of some of the solutions that you've read about in other towns and cities that sure i mean those are about what other people are doing there's a variety of kind of diversion programs that divert people who are cited or arrested out of the traditional criminal justice system so they're not just filling prison and you know there is a real as many services there are there is still a very real need for caseworkers for social workers for services for substance abuse treatment programs there's a need for beds for all of the i mean there is wonderful work being simply pursuing people a victim them from where they're squatting or throwing the book at them and walk you know walking them on the trail and he isn't a long term viable solution and you know we really hope that a city that just says i have to provide them with with i mean offenses yes other others not but you know again i my hope is that the city will start to pursue new strategies additional strategies  that don't involve civil rights violations or putting people in jail i guess is what you're saying i mean just changing an ordinance is the right to change i don't organise right that says we're going to city council and change this is ok if you you're in a pub with these three or four times are going to be arrested i mean they have the right to do that but right now i mean they can cite people for that and then i think there's a lot of things that they can do subsequent to that but what we don't think is go sending them to jail where they're not going to be getting any of the services that they might need and where sooner or later they're going to wind up back out on the street worse off than they were before and that's not good for them it's not good for anybody in this community so where are you with your discussions with the city of burlington to try to come to some common ground on this with the city council as i'm assuming this is coming to a vote you know the near future and a letter to city council i published an op that are facing eviction and you know we're always willing and eager to discuss this with the city and i hope that we have the opportunity to do that so basically what we're saying is for the city of bryant and the city councilors and  call you know james duff lyle down at the a c l u eight zero two two two three six three zero four and set up an opportunity to meet and talk about these issues and see if you can resolve that without  encouraging people's civil liberties right that's right is that your hope yeah and you know i think it's also you know to put it in a little more context you know many people in this country across the political spectrum are calling for broad criminal justice reforms i mean even for city officials talking about the state officials are very interested in bail reform and sentencing reform people are looking at prosecutors a cross the country in their role in fueling what has become a in epidemic of mass incarceration where well you know two point three million people incarcerated in this country prison population has tripled since the one nine hundred eighty s there are massive racial disparities in vermont prison population and it's in the prison system we're not going to solve those problems by adding additional criminal penalties really we need to be moving in the opposite direction and a lot of people are the a c l u has launched a campaign for smart justice nationally we're going to be rolling that out here in vermont in the coming year again with with with the goal of cutting the prison population in half which we think we can do through a combination of bill reform sen reform and you know really looking at diversion i mean t j donovan as it is is all about diversion yeah i'm a teacher donovan put in place a number of reforms to divert people out of the criminal justice system i think one issue is that's not necessarily in place statewide and you see real disparities statewide county to county in terms of who's going to jail who's going to prison for how long why what the demographics are that study or part of the problem you know is going to say is we don't have a lot of data from from the courts we have some from the department of corrections but that data is not analyzed or collected in the way that it was we are trying to work with the department of corrections to obtain analyze it and we have extensive police data police across the state are collecting data on police stops and so we know that racial profiling is a major problem statewide but we know less about the decisions that are being made at the sentences that are being handed down the makeup of vermont's prison population and you know we need to understand that better if we're going to fix the problem but knowing what we do know we are pretty confident  vermont should not be leading the nation in the incarceration rate of african american men vermont is there an overstatement we're the worst in the country or the worst in the country for mont should not be locking up people simply because they don't have money for bail for no other reason than they do not have money for bail and that has happened well also that also i want to express something that concerns me is that women in the prison cannot get out if they don't have a place to live maybe this is for all people in prison that they can't get out if they don't have a place to go to live and what happens with women when they are imprisoned is their families abandon them more than with men because their boyfriends will leave them and women will tend to stay more devoted to a man in prison than the other way around here and so these women can't even get out of prison museum of the place to live because their families of the band in them because for whatever reason our society if a woman goes to prison they're treated in a different way than  are and they can't even get out of prison if they don't have a place to live and i mean you've touched on the collateral consequences of going to it is a prison term even for a relatively short period of time people lose connections studied the prisons in germany where they you've probably heard seen on sixty minutes a story about where they're you know we don't need to get into that but look prison reform is really important we're there with where they take much better care of their prisoners and they don't i don't think that that nonviolent criminals should go to prison i mean i think that's my opinion not a pond but i'm going to give out my opinion just it'll ever be a time in vermont or in this country were nonviolent offenders don't get put in prison i mean personally i think we also need to look at how long we're sending people to prison for you know violent offenders spending decades and decades in prison where their incarceration is not necessarily return is like zero and our but it's getting worse and our country and we didn't even get into the national stuff which i really wanted to get into because what's going on now in our country and our civil liberties and the rule of law and all we have a minute now half left i was going to say i mean that's one of several ways in which they see i mean we were embarked on this this campaign several years ago but it's become more important with the election of donald trump  of course with jeff sessions of the partment of justice to really push back against a retrograde approach to criminal justice and it's one of the ways that we are trying to counter that we are countering the trumpet ministration from criminal justice times bigger than it was at the national level and state level in the last in the lot within the last six to nine months in the last six to nine months the membership has quadrupled in both the national state now you can go online you can become a  member stop on down among people your for the r t if you want to stop on down and wish them well in their fiftieth anniversary duffin anything else you want to add before we say goodbye or half hours over i think your mind is very lucky to have you here in this new role and all the great work that you're doing and so thank you from the bottom of my heart and for all that you do in the good that you bring into our world thinking there are more people like you thank your good man my friend to my viewers good night