and order and replace that in that employee with outsourced employee they never decided that as a matter of fact that you are being asked i understand perhaps theoretically the distinction but i have to say i don't know that i understand the practical distinction because i think he's saying in effect the civil service law isn't doesn't provide protection and if it doesn't provide protection what does you know they're saying that the civil service law does not provide protection for people who was that the custody and civil service board that have jurisdiction to order reinstatement or even to investigate the terminations which means that in the context of a civil rights case since we've alleged our clients have the property interest and have a due process right to have some sort of hearing it means they haven't had any hearing been she ruled that they were not dismissed they were laid off  did say that they were not dismissed either of the terms of the scene c s l that doesn't mean they weren't dismissed and also in this particular case before the district court here there was additional evidence put on and we think that's a fact question and by the way we think she was wrong with that what i'm saying is that she's affirmed on that if she's a firm that does not necessarily dispose of the issues here because there is additional evidence in the record in the district or laid off can be determined partly by a question of timing as the school district that they're laid off because we say they're laid off there's a possibility that they're going to be rehired well as time goes by you know that they're not going to be rehired drugs wilson's case was long before the case before the district court so there was additional evidence to show that the school district had no intention of retiring my clients even though they said they were laid off and there was a possibility and they wouldn't retire there was more evidence developed that in fact they did not intend to retirement and these people will never be rehired so it's not a surprise we've been at respect either most any time now don't hold your breath he was sure you don't know what you mean nothing of this but just for your for completeness purposes the second case to past in the district as was entitled to implemented this proposal to contract out but the union did bring i was very labor practiced with the employment relations board her in which the to look in this regard and you are thirty three which is part of the herbs in the case we're talking about where they describe the is so i would argue to you and i guess i have that whatever is going to happen at the court of appeals or perhaps later on should concern you because as things come to you the a law in that regard already and always have changed while you were writing and that might require you to i mean i think that's the reality if if if if the court of appeals comes down tomorrow and we didn't ask the organ of course for her anything i think we were right of the court but we were sued by the district and we brought the mandamus case because we were trying to enforce in that instance we were trying to enforce the order of the custody and civil service law were in in our stream of cases we have tried to make a distinction between the status of our clients as union members and covered by fact by or as a civil service employees because they have rights their rights differ true yes you don't have to be a civil service employee to have a due process right i want to address that i know my time's up mr well first this correct with respect to the layoff that's the terminology out of the collective bargaining agreement but whether or not somebody's been laid off or fired is a factual issue and the district court decided this actually when there was a dispute as to those facts whether the language itself comes from a section of the collective bargaining agreement that relates to we duction i stand there has never been a reduction of spam fighting for the school district there's going to be placement of staff but there was no reduction in force my clients were replaced on a almost a a reason for us to act knowing that a decision may be imminent and if you win in that case that makes this case much simpler for you i think as a practical matter it would you might want to delay your