reserve five minutes of my argument for rebuttal that's acceptable that's fine but let me open with one question just we've got some factual questions that i think a number of us have ok you've only worked with the  every piece of litigation that i am personally involved with except for this matter and because the order of the different court and what i would characterize to be a very small breach of contract matter  were correct yeah ok so so i just want to understand if i might question a little further on that now you're in how counsel for a corporation and how do you  generate or all sorts of legal matters which you handle there that right your yes you're ok and ok those matter litigation matter you on expertise for virtually every piece of litigation in the virgin islands in general i do appear in those cases but on on as i indicated on all of those matters except for one you that are paid if i receive any of the fees that are paid to attorney get rid of for his services to breach the max is that correct yeah no i did not receive any of those these are and that's ok and and so in your in or the law firm for services rendered well currently no prior to prior to when i began my role as in house have just raised at the outset is what was the time span of your being on the c j lists with respect to the court and to be  october of each year maybe so i think the st year that i signed up for but it's been october of two thousand and fourteen and then i would have continued on it until  gomez were here and if he were skeptical that whether in fact this is a real relationship if most of your work is on the bri thousand and thirteen i've worked very closely with with attorney directors beginning as i indicated in october of two thousand and seventeen attorneys are done i did have a formal relationship where i was  have none of the trappings that are necessary to affectively represent a criminal defendant and you know i don't have a mechanism set up to accept fees i don't have a mechanism set up i don't have malpractise but i don't have any other  i was not able to cure a malpractise insurance without being associated with the fund because i don't currently have a firm that it's active that with which i can acquire malpractise insurance and i needed access to what the billing software because i'm  not currently set up to bill hourly so it was the it was it was a practical issue that that brought me to socially with attorneys k so you do have experience yes your honor and when you left the when did you start working with the prism acts that would have been in get that that's correct and you filed a motion to the rd motion to withdraw nine days later on september th is that correct yes your honor so i mean i mean the impression one could get although there's no finding by the district court here but the impression that one might get is that there's a game being played in order not to be involved with this particular counsel you affiliate yourself with somebody that you know and that to try to bring somebody in you look at all the things that person's involved with they look at all the things you're involved with they try to determine conflicts would you have not known before september ten that the result was representing you know she became a witness in this matter is because of that original criminal matter ok but i you know got was a situation where i represent you know i was appointed filed the motion of a draw two days later and it was granted so it's not extensive so when did when did you discover that mr druce definitively discovered that mr de roos i was representing asylum in order exception to the final judgment rule but what we've got here is a motion to withdraw which is the nd circuit as noted in the barton case really a number of cases motions to relate to counsel not so much to the th amendment right i mean i think you got a good point in the th amendment because of the planning and case but motions to withdrawal relate to counsel you know maybe in almost every single case that i can come up with in the civil area a motion to withdraw it meets the collateral water doctrine cause effect among other things effectively unreviewable on appeal there are a few cases in the criminal context doctrine in a case we're not counsel didn't want to withdraw they want to stay in but not be there for time to stand by counsel court refused and forced him to stay in and then of course says but it's so important so dramatic what's going on here that we're going to enter of all things the mandamus to say that the firm can get out of this particular relationship so i'm not quite sure that we have a definitive rd circuit law to withdraw belong to the council i understood but in this particular case unlike any erie for example where the attorney with appealing an order denying h exactly right that the words matter and i would point the court and the wording where that that virtually court struck the importance of being actually contests and using the collateral order doctoring to avoid the general rule requiring and on when doing so would make that order that had many members immediately appeal of all and because of that the are totally quite rightly concluded that extending the outer order doctrine to permit repeal quote an order directing the continued provision of litigation service a client for whom an appearance has been entered and an ongoing case at hand if the financial likelihood of frequent unacceptable where a lawyer was trying to withdraw many months before the thing where this is not at all with the defendant interest but actually he would support it so i'm having a hard a withdrawal here when in hile how would the legal be appointed counsel or what what would happen to you know i believe he would be appointed counsel and in short order judge me no way to be was working perfectly nothing thank you so much no thank you is very helpful ma'am thank you thank you the idea of having a relationship with the firm in this case would not work because that firm is representing a key witness in the case that's correct your honor so ultimately what i was trying to  if you were looking to of something doesn't make sense if you were looking to affiliate yourself with somebody that could aid you in this case you would mention this case because it's the only case you've got in criminal court the immediate response back from to russo would be only wait a minute we've got a problem here because i am representing a key witness in that case young associate in the pardon would be appointed in a case in a criminal case and it would jump down on me and i would go off the court and represent someone and i didn't have the experience that you had which is involvement in twenty some criminal matters what would make you incompetent to represent mr billy o well it's not the economy do with my ability to go into court and represented but there's a lot of representing you know not lack of infrastructure i think that you know i don't worship right now with an investigator i have not none of the all of these things i think are necessary to provide effective representation in a criminal matter and i don't have them are you involved in any other criminal matters currently in the v i i or elsewhere no your hon