hello everyone thank you for tuning in to belmont in thirty i'm your host joanna jewell is senior multimedia journalist for the belmont citizen herald and with good local belmont dot com today we're go talk about a topic that has been making headlines nationally sexual misconduct most recently in the past three months you've seen public figures like kevin spacey matt lauer harvey  weinstein roy moore louis c k i could go on and on about all these public figures and the cases regarding sexual misconduct so i thought i would be good to talk about sexual misconduct in relation to the workplace and with me today are two experts on the topic local attorney laura panos and cambridge attorney judy polacheck lara lives in belmont she has her own law office in our law office of law or panels she's been practicing law for over twenty six years and focuses on all aspects of the employment process relating to hiring discrimination retaliation and policies she routinely coun clients on employment matters including harassment judy cambridge resident is a human resources lawyer and also has her own private practice polacheck human resources law she specializes in helping companies solve workforce problems she's frequently a guest speaker and also provides training services in the workplace in regards to sexual harassment i want to welcome both of you lauren u t i think of you thank you for having us so sexual misconduct in the workplace is nothing new we could go back twenty seven years ten thousand nine hundred ninety one i know laura you were young back then maybe you remember it was a pretty public case involving u s attorney anita hill it made headlines when she accused her boss u s supreme court nominee clarence thomas of sexual harassment she was accused of being delusional and her credibility was questioned thomas was confirmed  to the supreme court and never charged with sexual harassment so if this happened today i'm sure i'm sure you mayor gree that the outcome would be much different so laura why do you think sexual misconduct in the workplace is now making headlines even more and no longer being tolerated i think in terms of social awareness the movement comes from such high profile cases we have people who are respected being accused in some instances accused by multiple parties of agreed just behavior and i think it gives victims a sort of a groundswell of opportunity to believe that they now have a voice and also a voice that will be heard judy did you want to add anything to that now thank you how common is sexual harassment in the workplace either one of you so that i think that's a hard number to sort of come at because many cases don't get reported in two thousand and sixteen the e e o c did a report that indicated about one in every four people in the workplace have had some form of sexual harassment which is a very you know high number and that's people who are willing to talk about it you just hit the button on the nose or i don't know put if i said that right but exactly people are afraid to come forward right and do you think that's still the case or do you think that now with all this public  cases maybe more people are coming for well i think it comes from fear that people are afraid that they won't be believed victims are afraid of that they're afraid of backlash some people can't leave their job they're not their employment is not portable and they're not able to take another position in that depends on the industry right i do think that on both sides that certainly employers are have a heightened awareness to the issue i mean employers in judy you'll speak to this certainly don't want this in their workforce that you know all it does is it it's bad for morale it has a high turnover and so they're putting more efforts and money into training so that people will now feel that if they do complain something will be done ok so judy can you explain what sexual harassment means in the workplace that's a good question because there is no one single definition that applies in all situations the basic idea of what sexual harassment or place is is that in a it's sexual conduct some kind of conduct that has some connection to sex either  implicitly and there are a lot of situations where sex comes up in the workplace and they're not all harassment but if you have a situation where there is some type of sexual conduct and it has the effect on  the other workers in the workplace of changing the work environment so that the work environment becomes hostile or offensive or intimidating sometimes because of the sexual conduct then we're in the realm of something that might be sexual harassment that's the most commonly talked about type of harassment it's name is hostile environment harassment but we would be remiss not to talk about a type of harassment that is hopefully less common  t but also very serious which is the type of harassment where a boss or a supervisor asks for some type of sexual favors from somebody at work or ask them out in exchange for a job benefit so that's the type of thing where the supervisor says go out with me and i'll put you up for a promotion or i'm not going to give you a good performance review unless you have some type of romantic experience with me that is a different type of harassment but it is sexual harassment and it's called quid pro quo harassment and again it should be really clear that everybody's got their own sense in their own heads probably of what sexual harassment is and there are two basic standards that apply in the workplace that we really deal with all the time as his lawyers or employment lawyers one is the legal standard because sexual harassment actually is illegal in the workplace there is a law in place both on the federal level and the state level that makes it illegal to sexually her sexually harass workers and a company is legally liable when it happens but you know there are also rules in most workplaces and in massachusetts companies are required to have a policy in place prohibiting sexual harassment and those kind of policies in the workplace rules are always the same as the law so it means there's sort of two different definitions two different sets of rules and even if there's some kind of sexual conduct that doesn't rise to the level of illegal sexual harassment in many cases it does it is sexual harassment under the company's policies or is it possible the some companies don't have a policy on this and that wouldn't be illegal but all in messages for companies with six or more employees they're required to have a written policy in to distribute that policy on a yearly basis to all of its employees in that policy is a person that they've identified is the person that should have all complaints that should receive all complaints and sometimes if someone isn't comfortable going to that particular person they could certainly go to someone else in management smaller companies don't have an him and resource department so you have to think about who to go to if you have a complaint or whether it's you know you certainly wouldn't want to go to the harasser but you companies can't do anything about it unless you tell them ok so what should someone do if they believe they're a victim or the first thing is to report it you could also take the step of telling the harasser to stop but that makes a lot of people uncomfortable many times but they should report it they should report it to their human resource department or summon a trusted supervisor they should make a written report so that the company can then do an investigation you know depending on the circumstances they might want to seek counsel to understand whether or not they actually have a some people feel you know very offended by something that happened but it's not necessarily unlawful the other things that's very important particularly massachusetts is that there's a very short timeframe in which to file  massachusetts a victim has three hundred days to file from the date that of the last occurrence to file a complaint either at the e e o c or the m c a d so they actually have to in a lot of activity you know that well that is in the written document that's given to all employees that have over six employees in the workforce right but many people don't read it so if it is more than three hundred days is there's nothing it's  because i'm a workplace lawyer i'm an employment lawyer i kind of focus on what is going to happen to the worker if they're found to have engaged in some kind of harassment violates the company's roles and that's up to the company every company has a disciplinary process that's different and internally they make their own decisions about what to do if somebody has found is found to have engaged in some in some kind of harassment if we move towards the legal realm again not in the criminal realm not we're not talking about a crime we're talking about if it's illegal if it's if somebody is found to engage in illegal sexual harassment at work van then  can be named in a lawsuit against the company and they can in some certain circumstances actually be liable to the victim with or the person who's experienced the the harassment for their damages at what point would it become a climb like there was there was sexual misconduct but then there's sexual assaults and sexual assaults is when the they violate the other person right that's when it would become a crime you know i'm not fear of the backlash fear of having to relive that particular experience it's i think it's very difficult on the other piece sometimes is that some people have played a part in it and they don't like to disclose th people haven't told perhaps their spouse or their family and that it then becomes a greater issue it's it's mostly fear of not being believed i think that's been you know historically the issue definitely right only but what point do you do they can they get i mean i mean how does how do they come forward if they have fear there they're not going to be believed then well it's hard  the same time that lots of people are experiencing it a lot of things are going through their mind was i in part responsible should i leave my job should i look for a job should i seek counseling too i have a lawsuit i mean there's a lot of things that go on in someone's head when they're experiencing this and sometimes you don't see it while you're in it i mean that happens oftentimes that you know something didn't sit well but you're not quite sure was it you or the way you interpret  think it's difficult it unless companies know about the issue though they can't do anything and so people really do have to have a voice and be able to talk to someone in their company about it or to seek counsel and have that sort of strategic discussion about you know what are your rights and what are your options moving forward so if you if there is no one in the company that you're comfortable talking to even if there is a designated person but you're just not somebody wants to have a mediation of the issue that they really should let their company know i mean that's the whole reason to have the policy in place that companies are required to have that leads us to our next question for judy and that is what can companies do to prevent arrest it's a wonderful affirmative project for a company to take on to say how can i prevent sexual harassment and there are two primary steps one is to make sure you have this policy in place that laura was talking about there should be a policy in your company the basically sets out what people are permitted to do and not to do in the workplace what is sexual harassment you avoid engaging in it and what should you do if you experience it and then also these policies reassure employees by setting out expectations for what's going to happen if they do report it these policies hopefully will make people little bit more comfortable with reporting because the policy will explain what the company's going to do and assure everybody that if they do complain or express a concern even if they don't see it as a formal complaint even if they're just expressing a concern about something that didn't sit right as laura said that they will not be retaliated against and they'll be treated fairly and seriously so putting the policy in place is the first step and then a very effective  additional step is training i think we've been training for a long time on this topic in the workplace and my sense is that a lot of employers that didn't used to see the benefit of it didn't used to see the importance are beginning to see it because there are many more public dialogues like the one we're having today about the fact that a lot of people don't know what sexual harassment is and they don't know how to avoid it they don't know what's permitted and they feel confused and so a very very good preventative step for a company even if it's a small company but a but also if it's a big company hire an a trainer or a number of trainers to meet with your workers for a couple hours  in smaller groups so that you can actually have the trainer explain the policy to people give them an opportunity in a small group to get their questions answered and to begin to think about how the policy applies to them and how to follow it training is a very effective as a preventative measure and also as good for limiting liability for the company as well you do do a lot of onsite training laura and i both to yes  i'm not sure which one you want to take this question what should employ is do if they witness harassment in the workplace maybe well i think that one of the wonderful things about having such awareness to this topic is that it does give credibility to people's voices and if you're an employee in seeing another employee being impacted like this hopefully there's something called the bystander  that people if they see something they will say something and you know perhaps intervene it's very hard to be confrontational in the workplace if it's a superior and that person is saying something derogatory or sexual to someone it's very hard if you're at the same level as the person being harassed to actually call out your supervisor and sometimes we train in sort of tell people to say things like you know what this conversation is getting a little too much i'm going to go to the water cooler or i'm going to take my lunch somewhere else anybody want to join me and it's sort of a non confrontational way to sort of stop the behavior without being very aggressive about it but hopefully it will build you know a momentum where we have a social responsibility as human beings to help one one another out and you know i tell my thirteen year old all the time that you if you see something you need you need to tell someone don't just let it happen and hopefully that's you know one of the benefits we can't undo what has already occurred but we can make life better and we can improve upon you know what's been happening you know anything very well put no  no what would you say are common mistakes that maybe people make i would say the only problem with a workforce is that it's full of people and people don't know ways you know how to treat on another and what's offensive to you might not be offensive to me and certain topics you know maybe have historically been in the workplace that really don't belong there and sometimes it has to do with demographics younger people tend to tell about their personal life more freely than than older individuals and it's really about one of the great things about training is that it really does sort of teach a workforce that there are boundaries and that if somebody says that that a topic makes them uncomfortable you really have to respect that and it helps people understand that we all don't think the same you know oftentimes you do think of that's the funniest joke i've ever heard i can't wait to share it and it's it could be very offensive to somebody or impact them in no way that you intended but people have to be brave enough to say to someone that really makes me uncomfortable and training really does help open up the lines of communication with employees i think what you do see initially is a spike in complaints but that overall you see a happier workforce you see less litigious workforce and you want to create an environment where employees feel free and safe and able to to you know talk with one another and in their environment that's harassment free are there any other examples that you can give me of sexual misconduct or examples of how you would train steph i think in terms of examples i think it's helpful for people to understand that the sexual conduct that sometimes results in sexual harassment can be verbal it can be things people say of course but it can also be visual it can be things people see it can be a cartoon that somebody puts up at their desk it  can be an image that somebody shares on their smartphone that they received maybe from someone outside the company accompanying a text that has sexual content in it and the cell phone maybe gets shared around and the image becomes a sexual harassment very frequently it's electronic it's electronic conduct it's it is something that happens within within the electronic digital world that impacts people in the physical real world and then the last and the last example i think that surprises a lot of people also is popular culture that comes into the workplace so if somebody is playing their popular music very loud in the workplace all the time and it has actually ricks in it that actually is sexual conduct in the workplace because people are hearing it and it might be actually creating a hostile work environment for them if they're hearing music all the time that has sexual content so it can take so many different forms you see it more commonly in certain types of workplaces certain industries they think you have a more relaxed tone to them certainly banking is a much more strict you know i'm giving a generality here or sometimes you have a retail tends to be more creative they might have a looser standard but it's not immune harassment doesn't discriminate it really is everywhere and it you know it doesn't it may be more prevalent in some industries but it is really everywhere it's everywhere and do you think that with all of this publicity that it's been getting all the media by seeing says so many high profile people be held accountable and be terminated from significant positions i think it has to deter on some level you know i can't say i would hope that it does certainly that we would see a decrease in cases i think you'll see a short term increase but hopefully a long term decrease but people where people are being held accountable and losing jobs i hope that it people take a moment become a little more self aware of what the impact of their words and actions are sheed you know anything i think that what might be what we might see shift is or is all of all of us employers all of us company owners or executives might begin are beginning to realize that they welcome the complaints that they want to hear them that the right response to somebody who's complaining about some somebody else's behavior in the workplace is to say thank you for telling me i do need to know that i want to make this a safe and respectful workplace  you won't be retaliated against we want to follow up on this and help you out we don't want you to experience this workplace as hostile or offensive or intimidating and i think historically before company owners really understood the harms of sexual harassment as much as maybe they do now that their it was harder to have such a welcoming attitude and more more often if they weren't educated about the dangers in the harms of sexual harassment more often it was easy to have a defensive posture when somebody complained and i think everybody is beginning to realize we welcome these complaints we want to hear we want to fix the problems and the only way we're going to hear the complaints and concerns from our workforce is if we make very clear we welcome them and we're not going to do on pushback when people come forward we're going to welcome them with their concerns i'm just wondering like where you think things will be like maybe let's say ten years from now where you think behavior will change in relation to sexual misconduct in the workplace because they said hopefully it will be socially evolved and will understand that there are certain behaviors that don't belong in the workplace and will be upheld accountable for our actions and that we will have you know workers who are able to express themselves in companies who listen better and want to do things it really affects the bottom line there's no reason companies wouldn't want to do it it's the right thing to do but b you want you  employees to stay you don't want to transition you certainly don't want lawsuits but you want people to feel good and you know happy workforce is very good for the bottom line they don't want the distractions of cases like this so i hope that companies work towards this goal certainly what we see in the in the companies we work for that they're putting time money and effort into training and care about in their polling their workforces to understand what the problems are they may not just be sexual harassment they may be just inappropriate discussions they may be there may be cultural issues but to to raise this awareness so i hope just as a whole we're in a better place and that we see less of these types of cases do you find both of you now that you're busier than ever with all this awareness and all this media attention do you feel like now your cases are going up like experiencing that my clients are more interested in my of the or companies out there who might become my clients are reaching out because they're interested in training i think they see the value of the training and so so i am seeing an uptick in interest in training  and speaking basically everybody wants to be educated they're beginning to realize that this is a concern in the workplace that they made out of adequately addressed everybody's beginning to understand that they are highly likely to have some type of concerns in the workplace around sexual harassment and they hadn't realized it in the past so so i'm seeing a lot of interest in becoming more educated and educating in the world educating the workforce to make sure people do feel comfortable to speak up and that the managers and supervisors know how to respond to those complaints in a way that makes people feel safe bringing them up and that's a wonderful part of our business that it's an impactful i mean oftentimes if you're defending someone it's not always you know the most pleasant experience you can you're getting out ahead of the problem now when you train and you talk to you know c suite managers and you tell them what the issues are and how they can prevent it it's very impactful and it makes for in a good place to be in  business right a partner well you both have been so informative and there's you know only only thirty minutes in the show if people did have additional questions or wanted to reach out to either of you would you our law polacek h r law dot com that might help when you're looking i want to thank you both for coming on the show i want to thank everyone for tuning in to this edition of belmont in thirty