so fourteen one five three eight and fourteen one five four nine greste of casualty versus liberty  external process which was a vague term and our position was that with the board failed to do was to give that term meaning in the context of intrinsic out in the other evidence of record that proposition case i think it is a press release i think it's a press release too because it's on p r newswire which is a website which contains only press releases so for as the basis for a statement in your brief you're signed to a press release that you this was in the record we felt it in context of with respect to the issues so the other two issues are there's a lack substantial evidence to support the obviousness conclusion death squads and so on but again it's general context those are things that have been stated there's a general perception think it's fair to say a prescription it's a new order there's there's respective insurance policy occurs in real time one of the order is still the art would have appreciated such transactions maybe instant in nature and the only references there are to to mr testimony and in the problem there was that mr clause never had no insurance it was free experience never worked in it didn't consult with anybody in the industry  klausner makes his living as a professional testifying expert in computer systems design computer systems and basically his positions down to well some what is your interest to tell them what they want i can figure out how to program a computer to do it but we have to look at the n r c paper and communications and here there is no description of what those transactions are communications are not what you when you look entire paragraph is talking about what producers can do a producer is defined in their forth the policyholder transmits information the insurance company has devaluated that might be my requests further information it's not until the a number of transactions have think completed that not give due consideration to to miscarriage the only way actually worked in the insurance industry was a contributor to that and i see paper and had firsthand knowledge of how people insurance industry understood the indorsement policy changes to board is a failing fail to tailor the use of this term external process that's using a dictionary definition to its meaning in the context of the patent and by doing so the board elevated these abstract words in the dictionary flow diagrams no technical description it was purely aspirational it was talking about possible uses of what insurance company interest companies might be able to do in the future provide in addition to obtaining quotes customers currently have the ability from at least one auto insurer to complete the entire transaction online now that's a sad completed in what you would call a single session whatever zachery that means but that's not aspirational it suggests blame for cation that it's very very far from widespread but it exists it would have a couple points to make some response to that your honor one is it's not really clear what this entire track transaction at all though it's in the context of a pair out that talks about buying insurance on line which is different than then  d adjusting a policy the other thing who's really notice closure to suggest how this is completed on line these can be completed on line in many ways and there's nothing to suggest except hindsight that this transaction is completed in basically the n a c document just gives for examples that show instantaneous adjustment and certainly suggested and provide substantial evidence number one they told you there are instant transactions and that's a five zero nine six in the data and the board concluded that that in compass is instantaneously adjusting an insurance policy parameter and credits klausner then number two the ending i see says automation vendors are ready designing websites that allow you to determine the type in the amount of coverage and make changes in the policy thereby establishing an insurance agency that's accessible to policyholders and consumers twenty four hours a day twenty four hours a day you can make changes in your policy customers currently thirty example customers currently have the ability from at least one auto insured to complete the transaction online that's a five point one and my previous example about automation and vendor vendors was a five one zero five the fourth example is one insurer already had the ability to allow policyholders to make payments and extend the term and avoid cancellation when the offices were closed eighty five one zero two it's not simply that you submit a payment you actually were a able to make sure you had insurance going forward when the offices were closed now is an a n c sufficiently technical i would argue it is more technical than the disclosure in zero eight and two six knowledge and if you take a look at the glossary you will see how to build a website in a description that has more detail than in the patent and if you look at the front of it in a five zero nine one and a five zero nine three three nine five they give you a detailed internet commerce accessing the internet the world wide web they it's going to have insurance policies are sold in service for over the internet a five zero nine five through ninety seven and it even describes electronic applications electronic signatures and security and that's a five zero nine nine five one i want now notice progressive in this argument and often they like to know or lockwood lockwood was nineteen eighty four that is a program a software program that went through a network that allowed you to go into up mall a department store and you could apply for get quotes make adjustments and get a policy on the spot and according to locke with all the nineteen eighty four all carried out automatically what was the objective of lock it was intended to give the impression that you were dealing with a live person a five one five six now what happens is ms o'neill testifies well wait a minute this idea of the changes is more difficult than the new policy that doesn't make any sense when you're underwriting you perform the incentive for functions a large part of this is the same and the board credited m and that liberty prevent presented sufficient evidence that issuing new policies and adjusting existing policies involving many identical functions that is that a five zero to no now what about progressive testimony what are the boards have to say about that their findings their fact findings number one progressive attempted to focus the board on distorted readings of selected passages the cites for that and their multiple eight five zero one seven eight five zero one aid eighty five zero one nine eighty five zero two one through two three and that's from the  use e mail in manual processing that is what i'm going to say is the knowledge of the insurance industry well what was traditional is not state of the art they used the wrong legal standard for the whole basis the four points out the progressive fails to discuss thing and i see disclosures as a whole and that a five zero one seven through nineteen and a five zero to one through two three and the board board opinion are intimately familiar so you might if you have anything else that i could i'd finished of that section with that you're on i'd appreciate it one last thing on the real time playing construction progressive represented to the board they took the position that construction of the term real time was quote not necessary to confirm patentability the plans that's a six nine nine seven progressive doesn't point any portion of the stack that talks about the same online internet section the broadest reason the potations is the i tripoli definition and the board itself says progressive is trying to add  unnecessary limitation here and we're confused about what the same online internet session would be but most importantly it doesn't matter because what the this isn't one of  a i see says wait a minute you can make changes twenty four hours a day when the office is closed lockwood allows you to do it on an automated basis you can complete the entire transaction and what we find is it would be obvious to be able to provide a web site that would allow you to may real time adjustments in the insurance policy no matter how you define real time company that without internet service then talks about what might happen if in the future but one of the directions to is making claims it's undisputed there when a claim is made an investigation must take place so there can't be instant