secretary district office staff denise fernandez and ella kahn from this time we'd like to proceed with our public yes thank you chair one second please for individuals who will be testifying in the chamber please sign up at the desk located in the eighth floor lobby just outside the chamber door if you will be testifying from one of the remote testimony locations specified on the meeting agenda with district office staff at that location however we do not have staff and this afternoon testimony is limited to three minutes at two and a half minutes for the light at the testifier will turn yellow and at three minutes the light will blink read if you are talking at the three minute time limit i will ask you to kindly stop when you begin your testimony please state your name and the name of any organization you are representing have a stab a connection to the district offices through video conference so not through video conference but just through telephone so residents from those sites can testify to be fair we will rotate between the lanai office is there anyone wishing to testify followed by bruce or for very find it a very efficient way for the government to operate because the appointed manager don't have to campaign every time the elected officials do i submit that this is not necessarily true case in point every time a new mayor and or council is elected their leaders their lead people e g executive assistants managing directors and all appointed personnel does have to campaign for their positions there as they have to support their respective candidates or not get appointed to campaign is just done behind the scenes to managers stays and not changed to a new council elected who hires and fires a manager and a city manager a city manager is usually hired directly by the city council and can be terminated behind closed doors with each other to gather support of each other to oust a chair of the council to appoint someone they like who makes us what makes us think this power to appoint a manager for their own political reasons would not occur where the new coun absolute power may be efficient however it is not good for the people three separation of government powers were in the separation of powers within the separation of powers each of the boundaries of government has checks and balances over the other separation of powers serves several goals separation prevents concentration of power seen as the root of all pression to the people and provides each branch with weapons to fight off encroachment by the other branches madison argued in the federalist papers number one five i'm sorry number fifty one ambition must be made to counteract ambition clearly our system of separated powers is not designed to maximize processes personnel management and more often times city managers have worked their way up through the ranks of local government source be a at u n c at capitol hill i submit many of our mayors have not received an m b a i do believe however they are just as if not more qualified to run our county based on the fact that they have met the criteria as set forth above only done through practical application in real life instead of books in closing how many requests we not be in a hurry to place those on the ballot this year though it may serve some who should decide to run for the appointment of a city manager next year should county manager who i am very strongly in favor of having is the head budget and planning officer long term the head administrator and the head educator to county council members  he's mayors have been none of these and these are the most important three parts of being a county manager and if i had time i would get back to that recently in the paper there is a synopsis of previous there's testimony to you she said the county should first consider improving its current system before moving to a county manager structure she said county should find ways to hold officials accountable without making the change through instruments like charter and budget program budget accountability and responsibilities are building there she said that's where it needs to be beefed up she made other recommendations my question when she was mayor and council member why didn't she irony is unbelievable and it continues we do not do what's necessary to support the taxpayers of this county and i've been in a position long enough here to know this and i've done a lot of work with the county council some with the mayor many of my ideas have been put into effect but many have not and i am i do consider myself an expert in property tax issues i've been a consultant for many years previously with government i was a high level administrator planning minister for the university of california i have experience in these issues twelve years ago i wrote a view point them out news a need to change or form of government asking for county manager this is dated january two thousand and four i read it recently and i wouldn't change one word i'm going to read some of it i realize i only have fifty seconds but we cannot afford to continue the wasteful transitions from one may oral administration to the next with each new mayor comes a somewhat random firing and hiring of department it's persons deemed qualified and competent by last week's mayor are considered unqualified incompetent by this week's mayor extreme cost to the taxpayers departmental policies and programs of last week are not considered worthy of implementation this week how can you plan long term when your planning horizon is only the next election we do not plan long term here we do not plan long term similarly and this is a big issue politics confuses issues involving enforcement which should not be administered by elected officials and forstmann must not be administered by elected officials  foresman politics don't mix whether you like it or not maui has grown up in many ways it's tough to run an island in our case three of them the place for politics is within the county council there the people should be elected the day to day operations over government should be in the hands of a trained experienced professional an maoi we should be able to go out and find a really good experienced manager of a county or city  can come here and do a great job the other problem is the employees that we have the employees see their managers change over with a change of of them may or old group that makes no sense and particularly regarding budget and finance operations and planning do you have any suggestion well one thing at a very down based which i would like to say is that i see strangely this change would actually be an extremely smooth transition almost unnoticeable in other words the mayor leaves office one day the next day you have a professional county manager there things don't change except he's he's the leader i mean things will change based or he or she is a leader based on what they will do dance your question as far as implemented changing the laws and everything i have no idea and one thing i would like to say i think it would have been interesting had you brought over a couple county managers or city managers who had taken over for an elected mayor and let them talk to  i'm in the afternoon chairing committee and i'm here as a retired county and state employee my last phase of my career was at the my police department as a scientist and i have also done extensive work with the coun the animal management program through department of housing and human concerns so that is where i feel i have ability to speak today based on my experiences i'm speaking to c g dash when i urge you to vote for the council to consider the county manager position to vote no so early in your research process but the citizens down please don't do that many have determined that our current charter is clearly outdated before this have you explored under what kind of administration the charger would be more effectively changed have you determine what the rate after minutes to the charter would be under a county manager versus a mayoral system per the mayor also system that we've had for quite some time i'm sure you all remember their performance measure budget coming out after we had just a regular budget so if you look at the performance measure budget there's problems that remain year after year the goals and objective not measurable sometimes even opposite of what the people are supposed to be doing yet they get rubber stamped by the mayor as office and submitted and then rubber stamped by the council with no improvement year after now if you look at the performance measure budget target personnel police department not bad pretty darn good guess what you have a leader in those departments that is appointed by a commission and stays year after year and he's usually from the ranks so there are many many examples of the weaknesses in the charter i could go on and on has the current mayoral system been affected about truly evaluating the charter and how to improve it not from what i see please be sure to do all due diligence for voting no today thank you good afternoon off when you each accepted an appointment to this committee you were questioned about your availability for meetings and adequate time to read research materials it appears that some members underestimated the level of commitment and time required to meet this challenge you have not yet held meetings throughout the county as part of your assignment you've not been able to spend time in these meetings discussing the issues the process relies on an honest exchange of everyone's viewpoint between members and across the whole spectrum of ideas the facilitators applied to god deliberations has not had a chance to even start the dialogue but the maoi new claims that you are ready to make a determination to day before any deliberations that's extremely disturbing b been much criticism of even considering it changed little it's been said of why we need to move forward with structural reform having achieved administrative officer does not preclude having an elected mayor but it should ensure that professionally relevant job qualifications are established and performance routinely monitored last night at the cool community association several department directors were given time to discuss projects a recent appointee was very forthcoming as not yet being familiar with most aspects  department he was promising more information in another two months when he has had time to learn what his divisions are about a hardworking individual but missing what should have been mandated in his job description he's learning the job on the job and on our dollar it's not his fault this is a poorly structured system you do you cannot pick any governance template from any existing list of choices you have the ability to tweak and combine any formats and craft a unique structure for maoi new we we don't need to follow anyone else letter for letter performance and value to the sedition citizens should be the only criteria for decisions were a recommendation made to not incorporate a professional manager this committee must  least recommend a way to clean up problems with the current system and assure that they are not perpetuated and q any questions is not park county manager what is your recommendation it could be a manager with the mayor it could be any combination but i would find it hard to believe that you all have put in this much time to simply say oh it ain't broke because by now you've had so much testimony to tell you that it is broken things are not functioning like they should be and the examples are just too  geoffrey tax followed by barbara fernandez as was mentioned i speaking to you today as a member of the public i understand that jonathan stars had since said i might be invited to speak to your committee but it looks like that hasn't happened so i wanted to testify before you take your first vote i work for the county's planning department for over ten years about seven of that as a supervisor before that i was a planning director or deputy on the mainland for over twenty years and worked directly for city managers for over twenty five years so i offer a high internal working knowledge of the current county system and the type of alternative system that you are contemplating so i'd like to offer any assistance i reasonably can to you given the background i possess starting with the points of today and more if you'd like to hear later in the cities i worked for had some similarities to key hay including size growth and development and one thousand of those years were in a coastal area with destination within nearby the destination resorts of moderate california and carmel i was the plan and director there the city's had less than one hundred employees compared to maui's county with about twenty times that means smaller they were more agile than maui county in many ways but a similarly important contribution to their agility in responding to development and other changes was the city manager form of government as i'm sure you've heard the separate legislative and executive branches of the county government is by far more the exception than the rule in most places in the united states a single aligned count council and executive system is far more common coun hires the executive of manager and all employees who report to him or her again that alignment of all staff and operations unified behind the council and the manager is something i consider the fund advantage of account of a county manager system compared to maui county's current separate legislative and executive structures which sometimes can operate at cross purposes in council and council manager system  county manager system all the politics are vetted and resolved within one body instead of sometimes spilling over into issues between the two branches policies are directed to the executive to carry out and he or she never has any question of who he or she works for another advantage is the executive is a professional with usually decades of training and experience a county manager is a professional's professional it's a tough job so who you usually get are pretty incredible people and although they are not politicians they have a very high level of political political accu mn knowledge and abilities to go to work with a full council and run the whole administrative apparatus of the county in the private sector chief executives are paid well because of the high value added by a good county manager they cost money to please don't let that scare you if you believe the county deserves the best top notch leadership for a large organization like the county is worth the price as it sets to conan standards for the entire organization the department heads and other top staff would be appointed by the county manager and serve at will because it all takes gets vetted with the council within the council and becomes singular direction by the time the county manager needs to execute the policy department heads are no longer political  appointees and instead become an extension of the fundamental professional role of the county manager and structure of the government the interim are admitted structure of the government becomes professionally led and directed again the council determines the policy and the our administrative structure carries that out with a fundamental feature of the b of the system as alignment with the agility efficiencies and responsiveness and quality that provides and just very briefly i i don't know what led to that to that conclusion being made i don't know if there was a new political influence on approving that or not but i but i do understand that it was the decision was made in the last days of the of the upon about whether that should have been granted and so then that the approval was rescinded how that would happen through to the extent that the approval of the of the mon beach house was did have political influence in that occurrence it would be much less likely to occur under a council manager form of system because again the manager is reporting to the entire council there no one individual so so again politics everything in this needs to be vetted across the entire council so the decisions by one individual from a political nature are must much less likely to occur because again everything has to be you i have a question regarding if you have the county the manager and then people said well you could still have the mayor i mean it sounds like oh yeah you could still have a mayor but it's not necessary is it seems to be a token mayor and in the united states are run through a board of supervisors and with mary commonly in those cases there are just five seven nine whatever individual board of supervisors who happen to have been elected and they sometimes can show which switch the chairmanship every year i worked for a city that had for council members where there was a mayor and they just switched the mayor position every year that i worked in one thousand years for a city which actually had an elected mayor which was the structure i mentioned where that mayor was elected it was the it was the chair of the mayor the chair of the council sat on the council will had no more votes than anybody else but served as the head of the government so carried out ceremonial functions was a point person that media would contact etc and that system that system worked just fine in my opinion so if you had that that type of mayor would that have any benefit over just not having a mayor at all i can it gives you a and so some media for example knows where to go to if you have five members and there's no mayor in this maybe in the chair rotates whatever people may have a little harder time to know who they are they might be able to be trying to contact again it  ceremonial it if it provides a point of a point for people to be focusing on thank you there's probably other advantages too but that's that's one that i've seen m thank you for your testimony so i believe what you're saying is given the choice you given the choice of way i believe that  worked in other structures with a manager system before we can make a decision i haven't followed all the work that you've done so far i'm not really in a great position to judge that i don't know how much you need that now valuable resource to try to take advantage of and others have a quick question and yes yes i got a little bit of confusion in my brain when you mentioned when you talked about the montana beach situation yes you said it probably wouldn't happen because the manager had to answer to answer to or deal with or work with nine people i wasn't sure what does that mean that everything you does he's got a check up oh no you know the  any council manager form of government as again the the council provides the policy and then the it's the managers role to carry that out to the extent that there becomes political influence sometimes and then away from that system and then decisions can be made that can be switched back and forth but but political influence from from anyone any and one individual it is not nearly as likely to get carried out by the by the administrative staff and or council manager system because you don't have one person at the head of the entire executive branch structure are at least a one in one poll one elected official you have five whatever nine whatever it is council members that that are our head of the entire county structure and they make the policies and then the administrator carries them out so political direction influenced by any one of those council members is not very don't know if this is your belief but you said that the citizens are gods i remember reading somewhere at some point that in it was i was making a reference i understood  how how how whatever we do we are all a behold of the people and giving the people an opportunity to speak as is it is now a little bit ironic that by allowing maybe five people in the council to select whom runs government in the entire county versus the tens of thousands of people that vote for mayor it seemed a little off and so thousands of people vote for the council and then the similar kind of structure for selecting the council and no i don't recall one thank you and i'm here to testify very shortly just on regarding the professional county manager form of government you folks have been working so hard on you've spent time in the committee and h testify me i went out to my old not and friends and tried to explain to them what i've heard among the community different get togethers pro and  i share the information that you're trying to get versus a council the way i see that if i was an employee and whether my supervisor or the council didn't like what i was doing i'd be reprimanded or let goal so i see the council as being the boss or if we had a regular job supervisor being a job and say you know hey you're not doing your job so not getting it they all say regardless of the committee struggling we agree that maybe not maybe but we agree that your committee should just let it go let the people decide and let it go for a vote versus continuing on in your hard work because their vote will decide so we would have the final say mahalo thank you we question might be that from the way we have it now where people the department head and managing director are selected for whatever reason but not because there are a great deal of qualifications required or experience or training and then they basically function along with the department without any real quality control or metrics or reason to be graded every year about whether they're performing or not and then decisions are not really made on on performance factors and we're looking at a system that would be able to bring matt in where here in light of that where the employee is under a system that is being evaluated and not just let go because they're not like it or something like that i mean was that something that might be an improvement  well if if you like gold just because you're not like you know how this island is where it'll get around and whether you're elected or just elected council member the people know about what you do so i think the no matter who each employee and the councilman or our employees i mean we're the people who vote them in so whether it's council or they should probably have a supervisor every person in the county has a supervisor there should be some type of a format that's set up where everyone gets their job evaluated thank you for th drones and you don't miss fernandez this is the time of poll says we now we just need to turn on the television and there's a poll so it's nice to have a local thank you for doing that i you said the first thing you said you talked about the council being the boss and having what i what i heard and i may may be mistaken was having the ability to that one of the concerns with friends and ohana is that is that some are very scary oh man you know the council will be taking care of all this and some people don't like the council or they do like him so that is something that  o whether it means just like employment supervisor person is a committee i mean it seems like the council always goes into committees of some type so there could be in an overseer for that particular job versus  you think that the council manager if it goes that route should be selected by the council well that's a that's a good question yeah  you'd like to see our council higher well then it's more about what people say the council does this the council does that  i don't know i don't have a top of it seems i don't think it should be i think it should go into like a committee rather than have you know seven or nine people decide on the fate of jobs and it could be just one position it doesn't have to be for his whole department because he's also going to have people under him whether it be i'm not going to say just secretary because the secretaries and clerks are very important but him being like a supervisor councils job it should probably be part of a branch of the council that talks to this particular position and again if the people decide via of vote the main thing is that it has to get out to the folks so they feel that you know their vote counts on this decision thank you thank you thank water meter twenty one years on the list so and we're all very active you know in voting in our community we all go to community meetings there's not one particular thing that says hey you know we don't need a mayor if you know they said that if the mayor does come up which would also be your job to put it on the ballot do you want the mayor to be  i don't know how to say it like if the king or queen goes out blesses things and stuff like that you know in that position because the mayor himself has said that's important you know he goes in and says hi to full and stuff like mr dad brought up in a variety of situations that he worked under one of the situations i believe he said that he worked on there was one where the then there was actually part of the head of the county council and had a vote i think there could be concerned possibly in your heart as well that representation from the care from the residents in the county as well as the administrative and the legislative side of government isn't being handled in your opinion and possibly something you could ask the romana if a mayor was included and possibly had a position with the county council and we had somebody who was a professional administrator could be a managing director or a county manager would that be a satisfaction possibly to you or to your own that's an excellent question and it had been brought up to whether the the mayor the mayor is continuing on as the mayor that there needs to be very clear guidelines on what that mayor's job is very clear guidelines so then both he or she you know would know what they're expected of of not only the council but of the community because then the community would know you know who to go to for what it would be it has to be very clear guidelines with that position would be and having the vote i i think one of the items certainly that this committee has been reviewing has been a need or possibly read job descriptions titles would have you scopes of responsibility that all the absolutely i mean no matter what what you have is the job whether you're you know i was in the medical field all my adult life whether you're the doctor or the person working in keeping the hospital clean and stuff you have a job description and you know the person who has this job description doesn't scrub in for surgery in the person who has this job description doesn't go down and  patients and stuff so it needs to be i think an opportunity now for very clear guidelines on what the job description would be and also if you folks want to take the effort or there probably is a committee already to just review everybody's job what you're expected to do and then the community you know won't have so much to complain about if they know what your job supposed to be thank you very much  thank you did nice if anyone shows up would you mind emailing us thank you molokai office is there anyone else wishing to testify good afternoon care committee members paper i'm sure regarding governance panel could vote thursday and no question it got some people's attention because there's a whole bunch of fresh faces testifying today sorry i'm a familiar one but i e mailed you ten days ago and i want to reiterate the content of that e mail because i think it's critically important the task before the committee as stated in the resolution is to determine whether establishing a county manager form of government would improve management and operation of the county i would like to point out that it county manager form of government does not preclude an elected mayor there are many examples of council manager mayor forms of government in the material that has been provided to you to be asked a question of either an appointed county manager for an elected mayor is an exercise in irrelevance i would ask that whoever submitted that question for vote withdraw it and instead substitute would the management and operation  maui county be improved by having a chief executive officer in other words the c e o mayor and an appointed professional chief administrative officer see a o or the county manager it's my personal belief that the people of maui county who have made it very clear to me and i think do you want a mayor they want a person they can point at and say that's the guy  and my vision of a mayor with a county manager form of government would only change the charter in limited ways the mayor would still perform all the tasks he does now with the exception of hiring directors department directors and deputy directors that and the administrative portion of his job with running those departments would fall to the new county manager he'd still be appointing commission members committee members all of that still going to be a chief executive officer we're going to have a balance of power going to be an executive side of the coin and  legislative side of the coin with a council reason why it county manager can't collaborate with his department heads and the mayor in the budget process planning process all of it is then gets presented to the council and the council does what council does now which is review it determine whether or not they agree with what's in it and if not they change it and it gets voted and if the mayor's not happy with what they changed he can veto it and they can come back and they questions ok so correct me if i'm a professional running and would that also be could we use what we currently have as i believe the managing director who i believe from everything i have heard fairly high level professional would it just be to give more responsibility to that person because if the mayor still has pretty much all the same duties i'm kind of confused you know  longer we'll have our appointing the managing director or the department directors and so but that's the big difference you sets the big difference that's the person that is hired as a county manager has the background and the training and the education to turn this county into a professionally run operation in equipment in personnel in service is provided and it doesn't change every that he's the right person before they hire him chances of you know not working more than ten years are are slim maybe this is not really a question but do you see the way the university of hawaii is run ok you have a chance lord of regents and you have various people that are supposedly professional and yet we have seen a open door going in and out constantly is there a difference and i would say that is it is a difference between the selection the people who are doing the selecting i would have to say that the border regions has not had a spectacular track record with selecting people who have the wherewithal and the training to do what they want them to do but the other part of their problem has been that their contracts have been ridiculous in terms of the clause shall we say is the employee of the council the council sets the policy the county manager follows their policy setting parameters and if the mayor disagrees with what the council is doing that we say pretty much what's going on now but at least now in the future if we do this it won't affect day to day operations on understand their answer because the county manager doesn't work for the mayor and the mayor disagrees with what the council has told the county manager serve i would say there's a little more to it than that like i say i'm still talking about all the boards and commissions the positions being filled by the mayor you know you know there's also the issue of salary structure right now you have a mayor who has i've lost count of how many executive assistants he has the total salary package of the current mayor's office including the managing director and all of the executive assistant i can guarantee you would cover the cost of a lowered mayoral celery and whatever it would take to get a qualified good county manager because he'd only need one assistant and we'd probably cut the mayor down to one or two assistants as well because without the responsibility of running the county's day to day operations he does not need that many people to delegate his function to so he's beyond the power to appoint boards and commissions  to department directors and deputies would no longer be hired by the mayor thank you their job qualifications and requirements would be set by the county manager and it would be his responsibility to ensure that everybody he put in slash manager type of government with basically three three legs would you characterize it in that same fashion exactly that is what i am promoting and why i'm asking that question if you're currently deciding of whether or not there should be an elected chief executive or an appointed chief executive is the wrong question because they are not mutually exclusive to let that particular manager go in a situation where the mayor is not having any direct control or line of supervision over a direct over the directors and the county council is totally in charge this case i think we will have nine county council people would be making a decision instead of one person who makes it as his own option so i think people are concerned about at the moment and we keep bringing up is that you know the difference is do we trust county council in making a selection nine people of a particular director or do we trust one individual who whatever that well it would be my perspective that nine are better than one because there's an in my opinion and no question that there has been shall we say cronyism in appointing people to positions salaried positions for which it's just really a thank you for your support of my election and that needs to stop i mean it would be very easy to require that any candidate hired or fired has to have a super majority from the council six vote i mean there's many other situations that require supermajority and certainly that could be one of them that a potential candidate for hiring requires sixty votes and before he could be terminated debt also would require sixty votes that eliminates all of the past my question i would like to go back to your point about the the original question there was a lot of discomfort expressed here about the way the question was worded and it was this well expressed by more than one committee member i mean there was an issue about balance of power and you know that was why one committee member was really reluctant to answer the question in favor of an appointed person because a lot of county wants that executive side in addition to the legislative site and i think that can be done i mean you in your recommendations to the county council get to say what structure you think would function best for this particular county and if that includes  council manager mayor form that's who is in your power to do you don't have to say it's one or the other i mean a council manager form of government does not preclude having a elected mayor have a mare that the ceremonial things appoints boards and commissions possibly sits with the console and votes as well and we would not have a managing director any more it would be the had a long term experience working with the county a number of committees i was on the planning commission back in the early seventy's more recently the first term of mister i was chair of a committee called blue ribbon committee to paper on yes or no but rather to go out to the communities around one of the other things that i do now as a volunteer is to help facilitate a the alliance of my we can be associations i think would be very useful for you to go out and meet with the various communities on my own experience with the general plan advisory committee was it was wonderful in the sense that we went out to the communities what we did have we had a draft of the general of the  plan went out to the community and got feedback many many meetings with community members who gave all kinds of insights input to us i think you would be very much helped by that having all these meetings at one o'clock in the afternoon precludes many residents of country probably and one back here in the chamber where you really make an effort in the evening all these would be needing to get lanai molokai people to be able to go to their sites and on a people as well and be able to give you input and i think you would gain things let me give you one type of a suggestion that might come up that hasn't come up at all before we all talk about a county manager i would have somebody and i saying we would like to do is have a deputy variety of ideas that you would get if you opened up to the community we got so many very valuable ideas when we went out to the community and i would urge you not to vote at this time on that now to help the communities do that voting i would recommendation they will make a recommendation with the strengths and weaknesses of each of the systems you don't have to see those the final things but just to get people's ideas to simulate thinking so the testimonies that you'll get from the public will be much more productive the things that i would hope that you would be able to do and i could go on and talk about things why i think there are problems now or not but my main point right now is to get the community to be able to speak on the various points and one thing i would add is that if late and they want to continue on with it make if he gets on the ballot one time get on the back be automatically put on the ballot ten years later for people to evaluate if they like it and then we would and i've lost more than  two term air trying something different that's the sort of thing that the public may say we really demand the ability to to modify this if it doesn't work and whether you do it want to wait ten years i would suggest that you wait until the next full on charter commission that can look at not just this concept but any of the implications of the concept as it affects other parts of the charter and that charter commission would be formed in two thousand and twenty one with the idea of making recommendations for the tw ballot and that would that would allow for a essentially a three or four year review of it's working it's not working this could be improved this could be strengthened yes we should have people i mean whatever the ideas are that you eventually put into the charter or that th public puts into the charter so yes i think you do need to review it always as it is and this present system as centrally not been really well reviewed now for many many decades and i'm interested county begin to getting this thing this is before your committee was set up and i think you would get some help from joe bradley the editor of the maui news to make that available i think you could also use the other media that's out there radio and  and either get it into the news as like an appetizer full page these are three models that we're looking at would love to get your feet back to us i think they're ways to get things out the way they try to review commission gets out before an election when they give out each of the various things and they make them think strengths and weaknesses of each of those ideas one term i would imagine if that's a pretty short time value way i mean you could build into your your your process even that there would be another of you in twenty twenty five i mean you could do it w i'm just saying that we will already have a built in opportunity to review it in two thousand and twenty one be three years after it started it would start in two thousand one thousand two thousand twenty two thousand and three years to see how it's working how many people one of the budget impacts all of those various things that may not have been thought about it will at least give a first cut review and subsequently you could it could be reviewed any time the public says hey this is terrible so let me ask you this because i'm not familiar with the  and it's usually like two thousand and one two thousand and eleven two thousand twenty one they will look through the various things they meet appear they get lots of public input they go to the community they then make recommendations to the council to put things on the ballot for updates and just like your do we know they will and you're going through the exact same process were suggesting to the council something that should go on the ballot for the next election and that would be on the two thousand and twenty two ballot for the public to say yes this is a change we should my understand what i'm saying as if there was that problem if they felt if the public out there was the problem the opportunity to review it twenty twenty one commission whether we say whether we to wait twenty one why don't we just wait until twenty one rather than trying to rush into this election year i think i think this is an idea that's come the last try to commission recommended this body that you folks do this no nos they said they had so many other issues to done and come up with a comprehensive thought process for restructuring the county government and then someone's going to sell that to the mounted public to the point where they understand it often i run into people i talk in the government they can't distinguish between state and county let alone whether we have merit and our counsel and now we're going to ask them to make an informed decision on a short term on a very complex issue that we have no experiences because we've never had accounting manager so the ministry question  what's the rush the rush is that this may be an appropriate time one one what aspect of it this mayor will turn out at the end of two thousand and eighteen we'll have an election at that time and this is the appropriate time to do it before we get into another mayor who very often very likely might be in there for another eight years as we can see happening in times when people get elected and we may not have a good opportunity to make an easy transition if you that's why i it's useful to do it now and i do think you have enough time that's why the council selected the group of you to look at it to review it with pariah eve experiences backgrounds geography and everything else to make a recommendation the council also will take your recommendation and decide what the exact wording should be to put it on the ballot so they'll be several checks in before it gets on the ballot to make sure that this is something that may be beneficial to the community i think the public can be educated later this year as to what the options are and i think you're going to the communities now will be part of that education process unfortunately or fortunately did not track the language that was in the charter commission's recommendation in the infinite wisdom of the council the wording was changed and limited what we're leave it limited i'll leave that to the attorneys but it's somewhat limited our instructions so we're not free as the commission suggested to thoroughly review years and associated with the council since thousand nine hundred ninety two so what we're hearing today is some of the things that i've heard over and over and over again in the us one of the things that  one of the advantages of sitting out in the audience is is to observe what goes on and over the years i have to say that the some of the times you get very close with the mayor and the council where they can work together harmoniously that is some of the time then you have you know some strong council members and a strong mayor say i want this and i want that and we lose a little bit of that that in between what the console and the mayor should be doing i call it communication or lack  and respect for the other's position what exists today is that council its chair has absolutely no respect for the mayor's office the mayor's office is always trying to defend himself off of that but i don't think it's their job i don't think that's what they're paid to do much less what you're here to do to do today what is the problem why doesn't the mayor system work today why does the mayor system work in several counties on the mainland where the mayor and the council members are all in one with the mayor being the chair have we asked that question have we expose ourselves to other kinds of governments that are real life and breeding i think done i sat on a committee with dick and we were supposed to be in the jeep back for a year and we were there for three and a half years any legislative better that passes to come to the county council today takes ten to twelve years to get observe what's happening it doesn't take much logic to understand that we have a system that is not communicating with one another how do we solve that problem that's the key question you've got to ask what do you put up the mare in the current eight the mayor in a council estate the council appointing the the the new county manager it's not going to improve anything unless we communicate people a very very poor communicators why because we have selfish motives very simple mr i could go on for a long time ranting and raving about what i think is wrong i'm more concerned about what we can do to make things right thank you and i like i said i've been involved in the committees for many many years and i would be glad to share my manalo if possible if you need it if you can ask a question and i can answer it i certainly will if i don't i will tell you i don't have the answer and i think that's where the problem lies we don't admit that we're wrong when we're wrong and we take credit for things that are not ours pointed thank you very much jonathan thank you very much of it says that i appreciated your comments and creates teamwork i my own thinking comes from philosophies that are utilized both for successful corporate management and military management and and government that really set out very clearly in the model cities charter and other stuff from the national civically which has been creating these systems for a long long time which involves creating a clear chain of command and then a structure of teamwork where everyone works together and there's not like two channels going at the same time that fight each other i hope you can be part of helping us resolve how to do that but just  been spent a lot of your time in the corporate world do you agree that creating a much more succinct and to the point chain of command would be helpful rather than having two conflicting entities kind of going at it it's a start let me answer this way a corporation has a chairman of the board a corporation has an executive c e o and he is the let's call him the mere for lack of anything else they also have an operating manager a c e o and he is a guy that sets the policies for everything that goes on under him he doesn't have to report back to the board he doesn't have to he reports the one guy the guy above it it works that you have to be able to to follow but it does work and then i think that sometimes we talk about public private partnerships this is one of the yoke asians where you can take some of the model maybe even out of the corporate world and say i'm going to compare this to what's happening in stockton california and see how they match up and if they do then maybe we see a little bit of this in a little bit of that and i don't care what we do as long as we come we become better and we have that opportunity and i don't see that you go to make wholesale changes with what you have we just got to be better and what we do we got to be accountable for every action that we take terry thank you thank you sir for your comments i think for those of us who have lived here a long period of time and been through various administrations and mayors this is not a new situation we particularly are involved in right now and i think to expand into attempting to alter the way government totally works here and now a county is not exactly what our day and you is i think whatever venue is here is to see the federal way to have the day to day activities and those managers who are responsible for the day to day activities execute their jobs in a better passion and to be more efficient effective at being overview and somebody who is actually responsible for the case i think that's what we're here to give today and you're making an assumption that you make an assumption that some of the people are not doing their job that is not true we have some great people out here that are doing their jobs as are they are the being managed you know are they being held accountable do we have enough where with all of the things we do to be able to control the day to day activity of revenues county this county has grown from about seventy two thousand to one hundred forty seven thousand we went over the two and a half million threshold into resume in december we are not the same county that i came to do six years ago yet yet by far we are and can continue to be one of the best run colonies in the state of hawaii i believe that i believe that strongly we've just got to be able to work together as  work together i don't have to have to i don't have to be right all the time just give me a chance to be right some of the time i see that for the mayor and i see that for the council they have got to learn to communicate how they do it they were all big boys well big girls let's start we've got to start someplace that's the how you want to finish your question i guess i guess what i'm trying to communicate is i totally understand i don't want to get into personalities and not making any comment about whether people are doing a good job or a poor job on my only comment is if we are going to continue to grow and we're projecting a budget of close to a billion dollars and a population of one hundred fifty thousand one hundred sixty five thousand or do we to look to a system that is better better functions on a day to day basis than what we have today is that something we should be looking at only if it will make it better i don't know that it will and that's what that's what dick was saying go out find out for the public final what they're thinking out there you could be live in different opinion sitting over here but may not be the opinion of two community it may not be the same opinion that west  start looking and poking around i think that you've got to be able to expose and explore and polk and probe and then come up then come up with what you believe to be the consensus decision of this group right or wrong it doesn't matter it matters that you guys believe that it's the it's the thing to do i totally agree and get support from the community and put it out to the community yes well ok i think that my initial comment was personalities or personalities people or people but those are to live here quite a bit a long time we've seen interactions between the administration and the legislation legislators that are always positive for mallee county getting people to cooperate with one another is a very difficult thing it's like sometimes kids in the playfield how do you do it and there's nobody in charge there's no mama there's no dad in this situation so we can be hopeful thinkers however is that going to make anything improved and so  it's the only comment i have about communicating better absolutely i mean absolutely it would be happening better in a way this country is broad it's good wishful thinking and i appreciate it  you say wishful i see if you don't dream the dream you never accomplish it i took a and then that's the point i'm making is that he said we want to be better how do we get better how do we get the people lined up behind us they want to be better that's the goal and we cannot give up on that dream we cannot i refuse to believe that we can't make it happen you while we are creatures of habit but your remark regarding the reference to lack of communication i mean it happens everywhere are you saying that the lack of street i think i think that i think that you've got to be able to come down when you need to come down to the council and you need to go up when you need to go up as a council member or not you have to restrain yourself so that you can continue working together you don't want to put that block in there and we've put the book in there this is the worst communication between a council and a bear that i've seen in twenty six years and you have to ask yourself why we have strong leaders that's the reason we have strong leaders they have goals they  they haven't sat down long enough to think about if i were mayor what would be my train of thought and i think if you did that it would change a lot of a lot of the misconceptions that you all current year has been that face would you agree yes yes i mean his job and his job he has used done a fantastic job i mean you know the rule that you're talking about is he's meeting people from all over the world and i haven't see the guy handle it better be and the energy that he put out in this community to be able to to represent us is unbelievable ok thank you so we're still on communication and i think everybody agrees this current mayor council has communicated well would a change of the system improve something like that or is it something else we need to look at the question is have we evaluated entirely what currently exists why there's a broken i'm not convinced that we have  hi so here's my question did you see the mayor when he made his presentation here no it's too bad he might have had a slightly different take on the communication we asked a very specific questions not hard not hard at all four questions about people ministration and trying to improve our learning curve the mayor came down here and didn't answer questions and i would describe his behavior as he had a temper tantrum so there is that if you take away from what the mayor had to say there is a huge communication problem and let me tell you it is not one way i agree we have not had question councils share down play volleyball they played the number one team in the nation their first team got blown away in the first and second sets got upset because he didn't believe that they were giving their best effort put in what they called the b squad to be the number one team in the nation why good why determination why they weren't going to be embarrassed ok so my wife is lamenting god of these guys can do it why wouldn't he cut the guys and i said you got to remember the like in life we're all allowed a day off maybe that was their day off maybe they weren't up to playing that day but however your whole life should not be defined by one moment thank you actually one of the things that we're looking at is that you talk about what's broken we're trying to figure out what's broken out of make it better and one of the items that we haven't talked about yet and i want to get your opinion on was with the department heads right now have a system set up a with each administration and it creates a lot of chaos at the county and makes it hard for continuity do you think that can be unproven in the current system or do we need to look at changing a system the only way you can improve on the system is is to take the take those jobs and have basically a county manager make the appointments based on the talent you know they're giving it the best shot they've got so maybe to answer your question that would be a way to improve by by having this taken away out of that of that particular market but that also means that you may get some people in there that can't communicate so i think the mayor looks for people that can communicate with others as is one of the criteria and i would hope that he very very diligently in getting himself and the chair of the county council together to take care of some of this malady they were having because it's hurting everybody and then i don't you know maybe they don't realize how badly they are but the aren't the answer is it could work either way some political appointments are great but if you take that and give it to a city manager and he's going to be the guy responsible for having them feed back to him then you've got a different ballgame yeah and i think one of the things that i that i think is good by looking at it county manager position is you don't have that huge turnover every election period where  there's an all out regardless of how good or bad the people are that are in place or that are coming and that's not the she just the system itself seems to be structured so that it's it's these breaks every time there's change and i agree with you continuity is everything manager but there was sort of the by commission would in that also be another option oh sure sure it would be i tell you what we've got to do it though is you can have the legislative branch hire a county manager and he reports to them because then you've only got one governmental process you need to have a separation of powers so that the guy if you are me let me go do my job if you don't like it fire me on until high school stay out of my way because i'm going to run my department i'm going to hire the people that i believe will be best for our economy and on and on and on so i mean that's it oh but i have to do it now for coming in and be one of the first to point out what what is working and that not everyone is screen up worried that some people are really doing their jobs really well and getting things done the right way and that refreshing i really appreciate out i also like the way you flip the same question that we have but look at the other side of a coin what governments on outside of our county have a m system and is it working correctly and what are they doing differently that we're not and it's the same situation but looking at it from a positive perspective it seems as if i'm just going by what we've been hearing but it seems as if the problems this time are more pronounced because of the lack of communication between the legislative and executive without blame on either party just both have things that they can both be doing better if the communication were not so damaged do you believe that there would be still such as this push to change or restructure entirely our government system well the what you just said may be the problem right so if that's the problem and you can solve it by by working together you don't have to create a change but a stronger a stronger concept is  or or the county person because he would be independent of everybody he would be given a task to run all these the part and make them function efficiently and he would be the single guy that determines whether the department head is going to stay or he's going to go we know we know that in our system today the other reason it's broken is because they're protected by i want say unions by protected by by some some that stem from either retiring or being retired so we can get better people in sometimes will we stay are welcome and that's the other thing we've got to recognize how you communicate that and let the person goal hold as sister said that she's going to retire after thirty nine years of this will be one of the last time she see me testifying the twenty ninth of february i go into my final retirement i will be available to help make this community better but i will no longer be employed or consult a consultant of the parent company of alexander involving and you're the first group to have heard it in public i turned eighty last week and i think it's time for me to recognize that it's time to walk into the sun so i really appreciate what you're doing i love i love this process i love this community and i will do anything i can  conjunction with the mayor and the council and you to make this a better place for my thirteen great grandchildren they need to be assured that we're going to be around and we're going to  the county as a whole for the manager and for department heads so that there is an annual review and so it doesn't wait until things are screwed up so bad that all of a sudden there's a crisis and someone gets thrown out and we have had situations with department heads who have really stopped working for six months or most of a year before they were a place and department said i've not functioned and we certainly have some great departments now and have in the past as well in this annual evaluation process is something that i feel very strongly that we need to implement but that is almost impossible to implement and i fully politicize the system like we have  and conducted evaluations over fifty years in my view and in villian wishin is to tell the employee what the temperature of the water is at that moment and for the last year leading up there and to suggest to the employee how you can become better if you using that evaluation for anything else your job as a manager is to make the people that work for you better then you again better than you and the evaluation process if done right if done right is a very positive tool  and a lot of people like it i absolutely love it because it gives me that one opportunity to sit down across the table with one of the employees that i hold very high regard or or marginally and say this is what you've done as fantastic job or look but you and i work together and see if we can improve us in this particular area and move on there's nothing behind us everything's up front and that's what we've got to remember as we manage people as we manage systems as we manage municipalities we want to move on question answered but thank you with that is unbelievable i mean i don't even understand it but i just know that i'm a better person because i've been here i just know that i'm i think better because to take a progressive approach at how things are managed at the county level like uncle had mentioned earlier he too is he loves them and i love molly so much to him hollow for your comments earlier because you know  mentioned earlier that the system is broken and yes it surely is broken so why not we take a more progressive approach and give it a try you won't know until you try and that's why i encourage you folks to please vote yes and give the opportunity for the residents to decide what they want and it's up to you folks you have nothing to lose it's basically giving the opportunity for our residents our voters to come out and you know what if you put it on the ballot encourage a lot more people to come out and actually vote which is an issue here on maui so let's give it a try let's take a progressive our project how things are managed i also do believe that we need a county manager to come in and hire people with experience i would like to see more accountability and transparency and i think that's lacking right now and i think that a county manager is somebody that can can over oversee the operations day to day and also encourage communication among different department heads so i come here again to encourage you folks to please vote in favor of a county manager and i think now is a time and why w encourage you know maybe for community meetings held at night so that more of the community can put their input in and i believe that when you do that you to a fight in your hearts that yes this is something that we need to do for the people well thank you very much for coming for us again i appreciate it it's interesting you talked about the voter turnout i was curious because i think kay had raised the question about voter turnout and so i went to the county elections and was really surprised at how first of all me i county has the worst of thirty percent during the primary and fifty percent during the general election that's pretty sad but i think research that i did lately i've i've heard through other blogs and research that i've done online that a county manager has actually been quite successful especially in orange orange county where i have a lot of friends that live there and and they were very supportive of a county manager and based off of some of the research i did it seems like a lot of people are actively involved in voting but the great thing about a county manager that i want to address that i didn't get to is this is an opportunity to take money out of politics because now you have a council deciding who gets to have that job no ties no money this is somebody that is hired by a panel of eight to nine members and that were voted by the people so i think this is a great opportunity how we could really create excitement i have a great idea as chair and so one of the things that i would say jet i'm a social media whore and so that i am and i'm going to tell you that because don't vote and so i will personally i will stand here today i will personally make it my effort to get millennial voters out to come in vote if you put this on the ballot because i think it needs to happen part of the young democrats who i am working with also to help push the vote but you know we do need resources and i think social media short videos youtube videos and just organizing community events is a great way to encourage had community meetings there were only a handful of people who would it attended and if this one two community meetings do you think it would be possible to pack the room with people really interested in being part of that discussion or do you think we'd end up kind of with the same three people who come down here oh absolutely and you know why because imo major support of this and i don't know if you the unity march in line that attracted close to five thousand people or that was something that i helped organize and we have a strong team of young leaders here in mali that are great at organizing community events and i'd be happy to help you guys facilitate something like that because i think that is something that the community community should have an opportunity to come out you know like for myself i my store is closed for the past two and a half hours going on three and i left  here and you know unfortunately a lot of people don't have that convenience and they're stuck at work and i know a lot of people wanted to be here today need more accountability and we need to take a more progressive approach i think being conservative is outdated and i think right now more than ever with everything happening in the world we need to be progressive and i think there is a coalition building building that's happening among our community and i and that's because people really want change and so i encourage you guys to make the right decision and vote yes and give people the opportunity twenty sixteen let's do this take one for the team put it on  m born and raised on maui and i ran my small family business that operates statewide i'm here today because one of my key issues in life and what pushes me forward is that i would like to get money out of politics and make government more efficient and effective and get more people to vote and i think that moving to a county manager could help with all of those things i think that currently and it is the people in the departments with the turnover it's their responsibility to get the mayor elected again instead of what is actually best for the whole community and what is best for unfortunately their thinking and what how can we get the most campaign donors and how can we get the people that have the power that that harness the votes because not everyone votes not the whole community  unfortunately we need more people to vote and when i talk to people about why they don't vote they say it's because you know how this perception that government's ineffective and corrupt and i think that we need to make kind of a drastic change  us have the opportunity to create two people's interest in government and get them more engaged and i wholeheartedly support the notion that we should have evening community meetings for us to reach out and talk with the people of our community and because it's really hard to make it here i want i would have loved to come to your previous meetings like just learning today hearing people talk like it's fascinating for me but i can't make it i work nine to five and a lot of other people do i think that people would come out to this we definitely do need more social media newspaper time i've loved reading the op ed so far and i think people are engaged in every time they learn about it they get excited and have more questions and want to learn more and are excited about the potential for change so please you know when i read the newspaper saying that may be us but you know just stop whatever just because special committee is it was very upsetting for me and so that's why i skipped work and headed on town because i'd really like to encourage you guys to continue on keep asking questions keep learning and make a informed recommendation to our council that i hope will be to move to  all sounds great that sounds really that's a great idea and i think that we need to have more discussions of way that ways that we can create that separation that you don't have the people that you would be hiring you know be responsible to for you you know get contributions for you i think that's extremely important thank you i one of the concerns said that's been raised if you were if you were to go to a professional man and or was that there'd be no check and balance between the council or manager you know from your perspective that you up and comer what do you what's your opinion on that i don't see that as an issue like actually my idea of sort of the ideal government i think maybe as well maybe a little bit too radical for what you guys would move to where you would have a district elected county council people and then have the council chair be elected statewide and you know have everyone vote for that and then they would be other communities that have populations of our size that it's not an issue so  would you say your biggest concern is the idea of the money and the politics probably efficiency just government efficiency and the turnover  it is disturbing and i think it can be done better i think there's a lot of room for a turnover and especially having getting the politics out of any of it ok thank you good afternoon everyone i am sure we're going to come down here but my daughter forced me to and i am one of these people that i want the best for everyone and knowing that i can see that you had such an important decision to make that it would be taken so not not that you're taking it lightly but it's such a short amount of time that today would be the final day and i think it's very important to go out to the community and speak to a lot of people and when this came up i have friends on both sides of the aisle and personally because anybody can run for but i really feel that just like be said is one of the best places in the whole entire world and a lot of the people in this room have come from other places to make a better place and that's what i would like to see so hopefully in your wisdom that you will keep it going and getting more and more opinion because it's a very important subject and it's nothing lightly it's a brand new thing and change is very difficult for a lot of people and you could say if it's don't fix broken if it if it's not broken don't fix it whatever and at this point in time as we've heard and we've seen over the last couple years the council and the mayor are diametrically opposed to a lot of things and it does create a a log jam and we can't afford that  we cannot do that and i'm sorry to say seeing the cain company closing down it hurts me because it will take away our thirty six thousand acres of front lawn and for all the people that say we can do other things it's not that easy and we have to keep and it's your job too it's a very tough decision which making and i just want you to think about it seriously and thank you very much i'm sorry can you define your position on an issue  this point in time i'm in the same position you're in to where the jury's still out there's a lot of pros and it's a lot of cons like i said i know people that are very much behind it and then there are people that are opposed to it and i see both sides of the issue i want the best for now it county i want the d m v to run properly i want the planning commission to run properly i want people to come in and do their jobs with aloha just what they're supposed to do it's not like they have to make it up as they go along there are rules and regulations to run this county as the government is supposed to run we all pay our taxes we pay a lot of money in taxes and we should get the services that are provided for me to see and not be able to to go county landfill on a sunday when most people that work during the week work in their yards and they want to dump their trash and they can't go there that is not right and for either the council the mayor or the everybody pointing their finger so we don't have the money for this we don't have the money for that but you have a lot of money for other things but it's something that everybody uses and for it to be closed at three o'clock on saturday and not be open on sunday that's not right so what is going to fix it that's one for  larry our position is not to make the decision here but to put put something on a resolution out there what's your position on that board with come i feel that you should put it forward and let the course of action take place for the down the line instead of saying well we're not going to do anything you know i don't think it's warrants that and also congratulations on the wonderful piece in the paper about  parents and i've always told my daughter i said being a philanthropist is the best job you can have and hopefully if she gets into politics she'll be able to make it ha extensively by reference we've also number of us going to lots of community meetings rotary meetings and things just talk with people you know what do you think about this which almost overwhelmingly the thing is bore yes something's got to be done to fix and  i mean that's the point is the fixing and like some of the others have said i think the turnover of senior management staff has been very harmful to us and and the inability to for the mayor or the council to be offered to be able to offer somebody a director's position for any more than a fixed period of time they're being able to say as long as you're doing a great job pass good reviews you're doing fine i have a couple of suggestions about the hiring question that's come on peter what the number of other places too is we'll have you know where the coun the supervisors or whatever it is may be the responsible body for hiring and then oversight of that one senior manager there is just you put it in the first place you run a formal search for it and use a good search firm you talk about a highly in need here for a marriage you're that's running a county with the budget in the size that we are you have the council would have a committee set up and would include citizens at the same time so there's a good  flow back and forth about the people have them elected by or have the the chosen person chosen by a supermajority of the council six out of the non or whatever the council decides and the same thing would be if if there was a decision to remove a person from that position it would be at that same supermajority level there's a number of some people that suggested well we could have a structure where one of the council also been pointed out by some of the council members that the responsibility of being the head of the council is sitting at that desk there as individuals do is a heavy one to do the types of things in the same time it would just be overwhelming there as far as the duties of mayor and there's many different places they have descriptions that could be chosen to do it one of the things is a mayor is elected because they're a politician they're out in the people they're there talking with the people they are the visible person there and so typically they're measured by popularity the face of maui needs to be somebody who is willing to be out there  talk to people to be charismatic to try and include you know working with the state working with the federal level working with our foreign dignitaries our sister cities those kinds of things and so there are those the charter review commission has been recommending that can look at it seen as too big for the commissions because they've got so many things on their docket when they're considering at each ten year  past the either the administration or perhaps council has chosen not to bother about setting up the commission i mean there were several years after our  last commission that made strong recommendation that a committee be set up to look at it and it's it's kind of forced to pull last so the reason for addressing this and deal with it now is because otherwise it's kicking the can down the road again which is one or manager if implemented any suggestion absolutely there's lots of examples out there i mean anyone that's worked in a company at a senior management level how do you do it how do you do it you have a set criteria you're evaluating somebody drawing typically where you do you do is say ok what was the performances here you know and you can look at what was planned from the previous year because in a good management system you've got plans usually they go even more and year out how successful are you what are the benchmarks that have been made what are the hurdles to getting to that point you know so it's an action rather than  didn't do this bad bad bad it's getting to the root of why those things aren't getting done it's doing ideally in the best of all worlds you do three sixty reviews where if i 'm being interviewed if i'm a director director or whatever is it the staff gets checked with you know what kind of evaluations go on the i c m a's got some really good examples of that there's a similar one that look at ethics you know or are these things all being done ethically so you talk to employees under their supervision you talk to their supervisors and i mean what's really good is for personal development looking  work doing things better you've got to be careful about that when you're dealing with a senior manager who does it but there are all sorts of those kinds of examples to sit in and do a careful third the people he's are hearing them on these getting their concerns but he has no authority to do anything is what it sounds like if the council has all the important powers and all the management powers but with the manager i'll challenge the way you said that if they have no interaction with callous soul and no power as you say then that's going to happen but as you've heard repeatedly here today one of the big problems we have is there's not enough interaction typically in most jurisdictions where there's a there's a manager system the manager will sit in on county council meetings and the manager is actually in educator of the county council about what's happening down there you know what the needs are the challenges they're feeling and those are the kind of things that for the most part do not happen now are our reports that come from the various county departments you know which are charter outlines you know these should be filed every year they should do these benchmarks and things some of the apartments been years since there's been anything practical it's been produced other the short oh here are some pictures of our of all of our employees that you know out doing whatever there but it's it's it's that integration that is so critical and if you have a place and it's why you know some jurisdictions where the mayor is a member of the council i should also say that  in jurisdictions where it's an electorate mayor it is not sitting on the council as a council member is that often they still have a veto power the council could override that veto as they do now but it gives them that choice they are also if you integrate the establishment of people who are on commissions who are are on committees and things by doing it as a consultation i mean the fact that our department chairs deputy directors and thing to partner directors deputy directors they're appointed from one single person here now and up until recently i know that there's been a bill  that commas just introducing all you know the council should be you know at least reviewing in approving us which has been something suggested for years and years and years and just got dismissed it's those kind of things that are going to make a larger better cross interacting type of a government total ministry of and legislative both commas and bill improve things in your mind well i mean it will help in that you've got the what would really improve is that yeah they approve it but the directors are also there and going to be you know permit not not permanent from a necessarily a union standpoint but works director then we beefed up the requirements of the new mayor came in and the council had supported this person for eight years and continue to do a good job would probably be who the mayor to keep the same person and or come up with somebody better because he because they already know this is work ethic and the quality of his work that's right and the have advice and consent that's right and if they withheld that person wouldn't be appointed yeah but on the other hand the mayor can still come in and say well i'm just cleaning house and starting over the way it happened so often now you know this would give you know there's often a claim well you know you can get more turnover in these kinds of positions that is going to happen if you can offer people good positions i mean people who are near the end of  oral term if there's a vacancy in a department you know if i'm going to ask you to leave your job take this job but i can only guarantee it for two years you know the pool that you've got to choose from is going to be  everything then we might be here till monday so i'll just share a little bit you know i have been part of many things in the last most of my dog life so that's thirty something years i've been working with government and i've been inside government and i've been working with non profits i've been employed by non profits i've been very lucky to be just you know working with corporations and part of a corporation my public work has gone through our homelands as a former commissioner i was very very fortunate to be part of the leadership to work on the overturn of the public land development corporation that threaten our public lands many years ago and i say this because all roads have led to the community all of it so in this important decision and that we're faced with now as a community i think it would be fortunate and helpful to open the doors a little bit to the public and allow for time an opportunity beyond the afternoon meeting where both folks on maui we know work you know couple of jobs just to survive and many if not all of you because i don't know all of you personally have reached out to a lot of folks in your own circles or leaders in a community and ask the questions and look for feedback but there are many that are not being asked whether they show up or not whether it's two people or twenty people or two thousand people they've had the opportunity so you know i really encourage you to pursue that you know we're talking a lot about communication and is there a breakdown in communication and what more can be done can be different any are better or i want to add to that a little bit i do think communication is a factor but i also think that there's trust and the trust factor you know is is so critical that the public needs to feel that they can trust not just the legislative branch of the executive branch but they can trust you as a committee because like those two branches you represent the different parts of our community there are nine councilmen representing their districts as well as everyone else because it's everyone gets to vote for them an elected mayor represents a constituency to put them into office and they all look out for the better good just like the task that you sit on as a committee so each of you represent different backgrounds different experience different you know something you can bring to the table or your contacts that you bring to the table but the experience that you and your contacts encourage you to broaden out a little bit because we expect that from the council and from the legislative and the executive branch and it can do no harm to ask the question and leave that open a lot of times you know we talk about what molly deserves and i agree i do everything so that we can move forward i do everything whether it's corporate public community assamese high school or general public to move us but i feel it's you know maybe that should be part of the process and i know you've had experience in and i want you to comment on this absolutely i think that those remote communities deserve the attention equal to others it's cumbersome it's definitely logistically difficult to do but it's difficult for them as well as to come here so why is the onus on those communities you know that's to better ship is to step out and goal where we need to go council set up i think it's a really complicated issue and i'll tell you why because i have been in a unique position with working with mayor charming to virus who came before you and gave you her input and insight and she's far more technically adept and i am you know government operations but i think it's too complex i think that it is too important too critical and too historically changing for our county to sit in a room and  decision and i have not delved into it enough to look at the details of what those impacts are but i will tell you that we are a community in conflict we really are in the last twenty four months our community has marched five can no longer survive that and yet continue to stay we want to get better so until we have those community conversations and be inclusive and understand what that respectful process is it's really really difficult to make historical decisions you know in a room i really feel that strongly i just follow up to a lot of people have mentioned that the people are in favor either structure if you have one checks and balances i feel that you do need the administration you do need the executive branch in the legislative branch because as i said nine folks represent their districts and you have one you know mare office and the administration that side representing and the assumption is that campaigning is so difficult but it forces candidates to get into the public to listen to hear to kind of away what the issues are get into office and employ all your authority and power to respond to that that that's why that process is critical and important and i too feel that more people should vote so that they can hold their process but the economy the balance of power is necessary so i would not personally in my experience eliminate the election of a mayor because it fulfills that checks and balances i think that accountability and execution of the realty changes by the skill level of a while to sort that out there was quite an eye opener to supported that it was a difficult thing to do but you know in the eyes of the outside two hundred south high street you know no one really knows what what goes on and how difficult that is and going in and exiting are not quite simple if they're just really critical things that happen that you lose traction on or just an overhaul or it takes months for someone to gain some ground and let me come back up i think probably better served listen here i'm in favor of this moving forward primarily just for the part of the appointments are department heads going to look at these different apartments as being their own and  businesses and so the change out you know c e o of a company every forty years isn't the best way to run a business over different small companies here and now and also service over nonprofit boards in hawaii and on maui and i see just not being very effective way where your primary position should be operational it becomes political so as an operation sense we need intelligent qualified people running these departments can function so that now we can operate and move forward but unfortunately we have appointments that come in or out the ability anyways for appointments to come in that might not have anything to do with the job description you know whether that's to launch a political career or pay back a favor that opens the door for that to happen and so i strongly opposed to that system and i think that we had a opportunity to hire good people find good qualified people it would really help the county questions yes thank you for testify my question is do you think that a job description that sam play says five years that experience is a good enough job description for a department had  i don't think it is and at the end even if that was the only qualification we're not going by that anyways because we you know we have departments right now where people have been served and i could possibly for five years and are appointed when the person right or need them is actually served in the department for at least a couple years but they didn't meet the five requirement therefore they can add that title yet an appointment comes in that has no experience in department and is running the department so even if that was the only qualification we're not even going by that right now but no i don't think that's the best qualification or it needs to be the only qualification when i hire my managers you know  i definitely don't say you need to have five years and there's a lot of other qualifications i look for before i hire somebody to run my business for me thank you thank you very much fredericksburg they have seven member city council including the mayor as chair they all had four year terms but the elections were two years the mayor and at large candidates elections were held together and the four ward candidates were held  the city council had three employees a city man city lawyer and city clerk they all had yearly evaluations in closed session i started attending city council meetings in two thousand when phil beck was elected he was like thomas jefferson he liked freedom of speech he didn't like the old city manager who was suspected of being cahoots with the big developer in town well it was a small city we only had one developer the and he was there for about ten maybe like a whole decade two years after beck was elected he got more allies all kelso with the next election he got a majority vote and he terminated the contract to the old city manager it took over a year to find a new city manager and next election bill back lost to a doctor with almost no political experience so now for an expert had a manager with little experience and a mayor with no experience a few of the directors didn't like me as a community activist and convinced a new manager that i was a bad egg and then a new mayor started thinking the same way i even got banned from city hall believe the new managers had got bigger and bigger and about a year later he got cheating on his wife with a employee at the economic development department also known as the visitor center and his contract was terminated for ethics violations i also feel sorry for the poor sap but he got a job making almost as much he probably needed for the  chance to come all the way over here and talk with americans he's pretty busy guy but they both i haven't been up there so i can't compare with these guys stay behind locked doors i don't know if it is locked or  concern about just interesting good afternoon panel i've been listening to a lot of the testimony and in there are a few things i'd like to clarify first of all this is the county budget and there's been a lot of discussion about  direction being said nothing being put where the dirty partners know what's going on if you were to look at the county budget you'll find that the council has really fired the county administration for every department to put down group goals and criteria for any of you that have been through the process you know that during every every year during the budget session each department is grilled by the council on that criteria so to say that there's no check of what's going on is absolutely not true the council does this every year at budget not only at budget but during the year whenever there 's a council meeting for a specific departments area or department heads are here before the council answering whatever questions they are and being able to provide questions in answers for the council members we get many many written request literally hundreds a written request for information that we provide to the council so when we talk about a disconnect between the departments and how they're running and the council on almost every other week when the council is having meetings we have are our members whoever is being requested from administration here before the council answering a lot of these questions so there is an absolute connect between the department and the the council members on a continuous basis the directors are here they're here to answer those questions there's reviews that are done continuously because every time there's a question it comes up the councillors are asking for the reckon and question the budget by the way the entire budget is the council's document so we as administrator simply put together a budget we send it to council the council reviews each and every segment of it they question the conflict question the different departments and ultimately they create the budget there is a check and balance system that is necessary for those that wonder what the e a s do when we have people from the public to complain have issues that they want to be able to look at those days are specifically assigned to be able to address certain things within the community a mare by himself will not be able to work with the state on new legislation be able to work with all of the different departments like to see highways department be able to work within the community on what key a community or cool a community association want all of those kind of things are funneled through and the e a s go out and do the research and work with the public to make sure that each of the districts that we have are being cared for if anybody thinks one person can do all that work i'd like to see him try with a population of one hundred sixty eight thousand people we get literally thousands of requests from the community that we have to be able to process through everything from potholes to a tree to you name it we get are flowing cesspools the complaints come in we have to be able to funnel that much of what has to be done is when the complete public communicates with us we send that to the to the different departments the department to work on it and then we get i'm the chief executive my managing director takes care of the various departments and he handles the day to day operation and meets with all of the different directors i generally don't do that my chief of staff is the one that controls who is coming from the public what information is being brought in where those questions need to be resolved who's going to resolve them from the public from the state from foreign governments from the u s government you've got to realize that about eighty one percent of the counties budget as the t t committee that was formed by the state legislature this past year but eighty one percent of the county budget is not county money it's not the taxpayer from our county putting it into the county coffers or the one percent is what the state coffers so a lot of the jurisdiction that the mayor has to be able to work with and our it staff has to be worked with are the federal programs the state programs we have to be able to work with the department of transportation be able to get all of the rights to ways be able to to do the planning for years to come there are literally hundreds and hundreds of different projects that we have to coordinate so i think one person is going to be able to do that is absolutely insane now the set up that we have now allows our departments and our administrator to be able to filter most of these things and to be able to work with it you know that doesn't mean that we have control of all the different aspects of the community quite frankly we're lucky if we're addressing fifty percent of the needs in the community we don't have all of the drainage systems that are necessary we don't have control of the axes dear we don't have control of all the invasive species we don't have control of a lot of the pollution going to the ocean we don't have a control of a lot of the x and everybody assumes that government can do everything for everybody all the time which is the absolute fallacy every year we go to the council with a budget and say this is what we propose if it is not granted by the council we do without so many of the shortfalls that we've had as was pointed out before the growth of the county the magnitude of the community that we have our base has not expanded to the level that it should and we cannot be expected in a normal manager can be expected to manage the entire county in everything if you don't have the funding and you don't have the personnel and you just don't have the time of day to be able to address that all parties you with that matches have a question structural questions about the mayor's office and what your observations where you didn't answer the questions then and we ask you if we could send them a can embrace you answer them and last meeting we times and it would be very respectable of the process we're talking about the process not about the personalities but it would be respectful of the process if you could provide information to us that is related to the here she gave us some very good suggestions very good concerns that she felt should be addressed in all fairness she has later than september thirty twenty fifteen in he has said that he hasn't gotten them and in the last meeting we had asked if we can have a physical or a  literally you go to some find boxes and boxes of it so if you want just to see it that's one thing if you're going to read it i will dig them up for you but we send down reports on a regular basis and  depending on what it what happened what the topic is where it's intended to go if they're internal to the department the department is looking for something specific that's generally not given to the council if it's a council impact fee studies i can i can try to get it to you i believe i believe we have copies of the team of thanks for coming down thank you even talked about the goals that are in there and i just want if you could clarify the evaluation process on how frequently you guys go through that process is with the department heads and is it and where that information ends up in it's in it's in the budget ok so all of the all of the documentation when the council questions it the reputation of all of the questions and the answers are actually in the council minutes so the  population services provided all of those kinds of information is within the budget document so we provide a lot of information to the council on a regular basis it's required it's not an option it's require for us when we put the budget together the council has asked for this and that's why we provide it so if you want to see it but it gives like progress and evaluates the heads on their progress for the council the council members deeper heads here and when various parts come up they quiz our departments on what's happening with them so every every construction project they're asking about what was done how much is being spent and all that kind of so there's an evaluation on whether the the department is completed at the project or not and we evaluate whether or not it's within budget close to budget if there are problems with it why there are problems that's why we have under the new managing director the construction and management team headed by woody tell me they do detailed evaluation of all the construction projects we go through it with the with the different programs and we do with the different programs as well evaluate my department heads on a regular basis on by what they actually perform or what they do when i'm looking at the projects that they're supposed to accomplish we do an evaluation whether they accomplish it or not if somebody is falling behind on a project we call them on it and we ask them why what can we phone for instance we we actually went there and looked at the flume the performance from the beginning middle and the end product so yes with each of the directors we also we also evaluate them on complaints if there are public complaints that come in we take the those complaints and we have the right to what is this complain about so i have i actually call them into my office and we have we have these discussions and performing we are trying to find out why maybe give you an example of what i did with my managers that report to me is so through the year we set out and we set out goals and we work and we have those and through the year we take touch base with them and we work to see how the progress is imo schools but once a year i go through a formal process right value of their performance on their goals on other objectives that we're trying to turn accomplish and we're able to come up with kind of an a e manual review that gives them kind of some sort of you know what i'm wondering if you guys have like that process and to me let me let me quantify it for you when we do our budget we have to put down the specific goals that we're working on and evaluation of where we are as we're going through because we have to preserve it for the council during that time if you want to look at documentation in the budget that's where you and again the council gets to grill every department on those evaluations as well so that's where you can physically see what our criteria is is that a structure that that you guys have taken from somewhere else or best practices that you're using is that your structure it is a structure that i believe when limbo legal was for mayor she implemented this structure to be able to set goals and objectives it's instant air remailer has sort of been required by the council to follow this parameter so the grid th it wasn't something that we created f thank you for coming one of the items we're hearing his department heads not having continuity because they change every time a mayor changes can you come up recommend anything that might  improve that situation so that a new mayor comes then everybody all the department heads are not dismissed and new ones come in is there anything you can see that would help that situation my personal opinion is that can be very problematic and it can be good there's a there's a good side in a bad side to it if the community wanted continuity we would do away with term limits so the mayor and his administration could stay there as long as they were serving the public in the correct way and that's meeting the conditions of the community and everybody would be there the community has stepped up and said we want term and for the mayor for the council members when they made that decision they also made a very conscious decision that the administration's would change and there were a lot of good reasons for changing you know in the past we've had what i'll call empires built within the department and if you have someone in the department too long what generally happens is they build all their friendships they build their political allies and use tend to get side sort of get punished because they're not with the in group and that that's something that we've noticed in almost all the departments so we've got to monitor and move some of that around you're hearing some of that also in that we don't control like the labor department but one group stays in power is sort of rotates in a long time and they have all their allies in one area you don't have a changeover by changing over the department heads into the rector's you still have all the staff under them and only changing to people in the department to try and correct some of that oh i wouldn't want to use the term nepotism but the that ability to grow that kingdom without interference while it's good to have the directors and deputies long term will also occur where you have a very very high comfort level with unwillingness to change now from my position as the chief administrator of the county one of the toughest things that we have to do is to get our employees to change now a lot of a lot of our employees who work in the same jobs they want to be able to do the same thing year in year out and not affect not have change but that's not healthy for our community nor is it healthy outside of the government system which is why we're seeing a lot of the the day to day type of operations change in the structure in which it is if you don't have the ability to come in from outside and see and recognize what is working and what is not working it's very very difficult and once you build up all those friendships it's very difficult to go to my friend to say you're not doing your job well i'm going to discipline you because you have built that together that's the danger of having a long long term heads and you knows even in private sector managers are changed fairly frequently and even with the big corporations you see that happening a and b how many new managers have they had in the last ten fifteen years the hospital how many managers that they had you know sometimes it's good if you've got a really good team work going but it can also be very bad if you've got a bad group working in there and they're covering up for everybody illinois excuse me that were actually forging the driver's license for i d s we were able to catch that because we're coming from outside and we're reevaluating it we had a landfill attendant that  wasn't cashing the checks so we were able to catch that because we're coming from outside and seeing something different we've had various other it's incidences in recent it's been misuse selling of tires but we're able to catch that and make the changes that are necessary and take the corrective action i don't mean we catch it all well we're more likely to do it and not allow it to designated beach parks and and my point to the manager that i had made was every time we respond on a nine one one call we're even our colony designated beach park so in fact we're leaving  designated peach park with less than high quality lifeguard service and in opposition to what the stated goal is and so then we when i came on this committee and i was charged with looking at the budget and accountability i wasn't able to find them at all and then i was informed that the on line version is in the document so maybe it got lost in  d we're being asked or to respond to a nine one one call which might be an emergency or might not depending on who made the call so my question is how who reviewed it it's m it's not i think that's a legitimate concern and if it was an address my question is what happened with that suggest to you that the county parks are  assigned to them because they are technically state areas ok we could very well tell our lifeguards only stay on the county beaches and many people would drown and many people would die or we can do what we're sponse system there is no opt to moan or signal that we can supply to cover all of the different beaches in all of the different areas so we try and do the best we can and yes every time we respond away from the county areas we are going to short those areas but it's generally to be able to try and save someone's life because there's an emergency situation generally withou t without a massive budget increase we will never be able to supply all the beaches with the lifeguard service that would be ideal but within the jurisdiction that we have which is the county beaches we try and supply what we can and again we put in new stands at several different beaches like who keep  you we are a constant target for being sued which is why we've been at the state legislature to be able to get ocean safety coverage the same kind of coverage at the state has for their areas the liability coverage that liability is about to expire this year the coverage and we're we're we're petitioning at the state legislature to extend that coverage because all the counties are in the same p we the state has liability coverage for the state if this expires at the county will not have the same liability coverage but in that it actually had to literally say we've been literally we've been sued for millions of dollars just because somebody started from one of the one of the beaches or in the case of a line up from a graveyard walked for half a mile down the beach or got hurt in the surf job you can you are doing your job and i don't i don't think you can show me any example where our county lifeguards or the performance of a life saving or an emergency situation were ever sued it's individuals and had a stick upcoming budget will be going down the council next month that's what we're preparing it we propose a budget the council finalizes impasses their version of the budget put it online so the calls and it's it's grade having per fashionable standards qualifications beyond what is currently in the charter would be a good idea for department heads let me suggest i believe i have the most qualified professionals in the jobs that are to directors and deputy tricked us right now and i understand why we county does not have one hundred people that are qualified for each of the positions within within each of our communities we have to be able to find people that are not only qualified but willing to work in these jobs i'm going to say about half of my directors took a pay cut to become directors so they're not the whole mass of people that are willing to come in and do it if you go outside of the county and you bring in managers from outside the learning curve for them is very very high because they don't know who the key players in the community are they don't know who to talk to they don't have the history of what is there and they don't have to depend on word of mouth  instruction for the most part but if you have friends within that within the community that you could talk to you can get information a lot better so what it what it what does it take to really be qualified to be the job i think if you could define what it takes to be the most qualified for the job you're going to find that the way that we're doing it gets us the most qualified may not be the biggest degree the highest degree it may not be the most year in service but you're going to find that you also need the quality of someone willing to serve that has a heart for the community that really understands people in the community so you  to job descriptions for department head oh i didn't say that i say that if you are looking at the people we have what we have done is about the we've gotten very good responses from the people that can and are willing to serve if you put too hard descriptions on the job and that we find this in the commissions you know we try to fill positions for the commissions some of them are too onerous we can't fill the positions so could put conditions there you can put requirements what they have to be something that's practical and applicable where applicants can meet the requirements so we have enough of a choice if they're too stringent it could be very difficult to find applicants to meet that those requirements when you when you hire department heads to go out in a regular solicitation probably isn't the right word  yes we have a committee we have actually several committees that actually do search of the community we ask a lot of people whether they're willing to serve or not we have to try and find the best people within the community and that's how we got a lot of people some of my directors a deputy director of i don't know i didn't know them at all the search committee is the one that put them together to be able to to get the best qualified people but i didn't hand every director or deputy direct say no six ok i'm not going to that's my private group and i'm not going to expose them to the public because there's no purpose to it there they are research community and i can assure you if you want to i'm going to say that this particular requirement is probably not adhered to in the way that this this charter requires it and a lot of that is because the committees that are doing the general plan and the community plans have changed over time and how they do their business and all the planning process requires that the community plan be reviewed every ten years and change every ten years with the process of the council goes through in the  various planning commissions that we go through right now we're lucky if we can get one community plan in three years so to meet these requirements are almost impossible under the current system if we're going to be the will to try and meet these requirements then we have to have all the plans going through at the same time our staffing would probably have to triple because we wouldn't be working on one plan would be working on all the plants and the community requirements to meet we have to be able to be very strict and here to the rules of timing almost every community plan group citizens group that i know of has asked for years and each of the every time it goes through this through the planning process the whole process is changed in what they need to be able to evaluate how they need to be able to evaluate it and the general plan the last not this one the one before that and before that was about four or five pages it was a very very thin document this this general plan is almost like in a cyclopedia so that the time that the the various groups were meeting to try and put it all together i guess i think when you were on the on that commission so you know what i'm talking about in that it became very very lengthy and what this charter was trying to do when it when it put this together cannot be done on a practical basis with a system that we have isn't it also a county ordinance to  but i'll give you a give you a good example we have federal legislation that asks us to do a day every building every place is supposed to be eighty by its we're still not and we won't are put down you can't meet the requirements in a timely manner so even though it's in the book that's one of the dichotomies of having to manage we are we are challenged many times i'm supposed to form a new division in the department of environmental to deal with it veyron mental issues we've gone through the council but it was at about seven years six or seven years now it still hasn't been approved by the council for the positions and the expansion to create that so the rules say we're supposed to have that but on a practical basis it's just opinion nothing short of god is going to be able to do some of these things no manager is going to be able to do all ten community plans at one time in the ten years bad with the general water plans that's going to cost us literally billions of dollars to be able to do we don't have the budget to be able to do it and we don't have the ability to tap on to the money to be able to do it so some of these requirements that are there just a matter with whether it's myself or a manager they're just not going to be able to do it do we had to come across with the grease trap implementation where we were required to change all the businesses grease traps some of those were in the hundreds of thousands of dollars to businesses couldn't do we couldn't get it all done in a time manner but we tried to adjust it to where we finally did get it to point where it's almost acceptable but even novel we're losing many businesses because they can't afford to put in the grease traps that are required and lot of the laws change in the middle of business practices so once you build it it's allowed and then they change the law you've got to redo everything it becomes almost impossible to do it impossible to manage a timely manner no manager i communities in the state to go to secondary treatment and all all of our processes were approved then we got a declaration that it's not good and we've got to figure out how to fix it it takes time to be able to make any kind of an adjustment so we've gone to putting an ultraviolet violet light to go into making it you know much better so that we could actually treat it as ours as the best grade but we still have to be able to disperse it all those permits we have to do all the others that can take literally years to go through the permit process and we're still waiting for our permits from the state department of health was telling us we've got to be able to divert the water to be able to to do the studies that they want to do and it's been about four years now we still haven't gotten that approval for that so you know a lot of times weren't we were in one of those catch twenty two where you want to do something you can't do executives within our county on our state system that get paid more night too you know when you're going to when you're going to try and find a good manager you have to look at what the market will allow for the kind of quality that you want i would be very surprised if you can get somebody for three times the salary that are managing director gets down and i could be wrong you know maybe you get lucky but in this day and age when we have people building from job to job you know looking for opportunities to be able to find somebody qualify that will stick with you long term it's going to be difficult under any circumstances i think the statistics are every employee now is going to change at least seven jobs in their career when you take into consideration you started eighteen and retire at sixty that's not a whole lot of years going to be in any one job it's possible but i think it's going to be very it's going to be much more expensive and if it has some of the testifier say well you know you don't need any executive assistant this one guy is going have to do all the stuff that they're going to have to answer the phones are going to have to go call the people up and return phone calls are going have to go through the thousands of e mails they're going to have to go through and meet at the state so all the different meetings that they have to go through like with department of highways like the department of health and i have to attend all of these kinds of meetings i even have to go to the armed forces meeting because i'm part of the group that manages in case there's a national disaster so all the military and i go to those meetings so this manager that you're trying to get if he's got to do all this stuff it's going to be it's not going to be possible for one person to do it and even even for things like replies to the council i don't have a single employee within the department that has a job description says do research for the council not wanted so when you talk about waste of energy and effort no i have my directors and deputy directors here every other week and they are sitting there waiting for questions from the council and we send them here because we're trying to be opinion no one person is going to know what all sixteen different departments are doing and be able to keep track of answer all the questions so to ask the manager one person to know what's going on with all the different departments and to be  come here and answer the questions for the council to sit here for every other week for the whole week and still be in touch with what's happening outside to get all the reports i think that's asking to and i don't think that's practical you need to have the staff to be able to filter which is why we have all divisions as we have all the hierarchy that we do have that to cope with the director should answer the question and in your opinion we can we can find a manager a professional manager who could do this how do you think that they're able to find people to do it i'm going to point out that you know when you when you're in let's say all these counties you go from one district to the next district you can drive through the county about five well los angeles is is one county there's a disease to the south and mentor a county which is to the north go to orange county city has a city manager to manage or else so they've managed that small part they manage the city within the limits in the city right but that's let's say a square mile would you see each of those cities are square mile now haven't bigger than that but a bigger redondo beach most oh yeah they're all oh yeah they're bigger than that but i'm square mile oh but for the most part most of what they have is very similar from their you know city to city where they have the same service requirements you know they need to provide water and sewer and fire and police and the standard government services just like you do here so but they're mostly the same so if you if you if you want to manage from one you move from one to the other it's very similar here molokai very different from alumni very different from very different from key very different but the services are the same i think jane  has a very says different system then he hey they have an independent system the system in ky is very different from call only the machinery that's there the things that are there are very difficult about the treatment plant so there are different types different and how you have to service them but in any case when you when you start going throughout our county if you don't know how the each each of the individual areas run and how you're going to be able to put together and satisfy the three things that i feel that i'm going to need to go through as to feel that i've fulfilled my duty on this committee not today but over the next have seven if we can but i don't know if that's possible magister another would be that when we had a good facilitator broad made available to us i'd assume that we would have a true facilitated discussion and the ability to throw out ideas good bad and different and then we could rank them and kind of boil down to some kind of consensus which could lead us to whether we're running forward and number three is said i feel that we need to have some presentations by actual managers or deputy managers or some other people who've worked in managed jurisdictions and i know i have a few names of people who would be happy to come and present to us and i'm sure there are more one after the next one yeah ok well how do you how do you did next one is just for public testimony or at night i just have a play and i'm sorry this is just clarification go so many rules but on the resolution it does not say to raise the awareness of our community so i'm asking so can i or is it my quijano do i nor do i set out notices that i notify people of my age are not aware that this is going on commission i can tell you the three biggest crowds we had any meetings were the other ones we had sometimes only two or three people show up to get drunk and if we do if we do get to get through all the testimony in a fairly quick fashion i'd like to ask if we could have laurie prepared to begin a facilitated discussion where we can put out ideas and she can have some use of the boat big post and so whatever