hello and welcome to continued channel seventeen town meeting television coverage of the candidates budgets and ballot items that you the voters will see on your ballot this upcoming march sixth twenty eighteen  this is a live collen show so please feel free to call us tonight if you are watching at six to eight zero two eight six two three nine six six thank you very much in this form we've brought together constituents from both sides  issue facing him early on to new voters this is an advisory referendum on the basing of the vermont air guard f thirty five at the burlington international airport and i want to take a moment to read that that's burlington bal item number six and it reads shall we the voters of the city of burlington as part of our strong support for the men and women of the vermont national guard and especially their mission to quote protect the citizens of vermont unquote advise the city council to one request the cancellation of the planned basing of the effort at burlington international airport and to request instead low noise level equipment with a proven high safety record appropriate for a densely populated area i'm going to repeat that this is an advisory referendum if it is voted up or down it has no direct consequence merely tells the mayor and the city council the general direction of city opinion based on the voters who participate on with us here tonight for in favor of this advisory referendum i have to my left resin cracow she's a retired air force colonel she's a current resident of south burlington and she is also the opposing the referendum on my right we have bill key ho is a retired lieutenant colonel of the army guard he has spent eight years serving in the vermont legislature and sixteen but the city of burlington and he's also a current city  i'm going to give you each a minute now to take some time and tell us your position and why this issue is important to you so let's start with resilin and we'll go to bill and then we'll go to very important decision of the air force when they wrote their environment or environmental impact statement laid out the ramifications of the basing and many of those were detrimental to our area specifically they have the noise of the f thirty five can harm the health of adults especially children and also there are cognitive development it also has economic consequences studies have shown their property values in this kind of noise  decrease and there are other negative value negative impacts for the basing so because of the negative impact it's a very important decision we also know that the air force has made it very clear that the f thirty five is not the only mission for the air national guard if it doesn't come here they've said there are plenty of other missions that are flying aircraft that they could have permission and my time is up  because of the terminology and i'll get into that later but the f thirty five is coming to burlington i think that this item on the ballot is sort of a yardstick  lease so i think that the best way to support the vermont national guard is to support a yes vote on this ballot item because the mission of the our national guard is to protect the citizens of a month you'll see that on the website of the moment national guard and you can't protect thousands of families by harming them the air force did a very careful study spent years on it and came up with the conclusion that three thousand homes are going to be in a noise dangerous zone and it's going to be harmful for children and adults as roseanne pointed out so the best way to support the last six years ago i tied every green ribbon on my front porch because i felt that the silent majority of the supporters of the from our national guard and the supporters of the new f thirty five were not being heard and so i wanted to give them an avenue in which to do that there were many public forums that people participated in but then we also had to comment periods during the process one in which the supporters produced eighteen thousand signatures in support of the f thirty five and then the second comment period there were ten thousand postcards and support so we've already seen in the past significant support for this new jet for the air guard but i'm here because i feel that this ballot item is deceitful and it's  again and for being here and i would like to remind viewers that this is a call in show and we will take your calls eight zero two eight six two three nine six sick we're going to go back and forth i'm going to ask each side  to share with us their thoughts and the first is to the proponents how did this referendum come about how did it come to be on the ballot specifically why now and why is it important that voters of burlington weigh in on will start ok so this is on the ballot as a result of thousands of signatures being gathered on petitions these last two or three months to get it on the ballot and that and the petitioning was initiated so that the fingers of burlington could weigh in on the subject until now it's been a decision made for the people instead of by the people and so the purpose of the petition is to give the voters a chance as an electorate to tell to tell the elected representatives how they feel this goes right back to seven hundred seventy seven when our state was founded where our country actually the republic of vermont was founded the idea that power belongs to the people and that the elected officials are the servants of the people and so you know mayor weinberger has made a very strong point that he's put seventeen issues to the voters on the ballot a town meeting in the last six years well this is one issue this crucial issue for health and safety of thousands of families all around the airport has not been put to the voters by the mayor in the city council so we went to the to the voters and and collected signatures to get it on the ballot and that's how it got sound you have you know a couple you have a little more time in the two minutes well i agree with which to me said the other thing is that this is a very important decision and it's one that should not be taken lightly and as as jimmy said it was made from in fact people were supporting it before they even read the information about it the information has a bit out now for six years it's pretty clear that this aircraft is going to cause a lot of harm to a lot of people here it's also very clear there are alternatives so we can support the guard by getting them another aircraft to fly that won't hurt anybody that's doable it's been done in other states it's even been done after planes have have arrived at their bases so we have a choice we have a better choice that supports the guard as well as the people it's not this weapon system or nothing it's this weapon system or another military aircraft that wouldn't saying that you're putting it to the voters for the first time then you're discounting all those comments that came in during the last comment period that's when the public was being heard because it's not up to the city of growing to it was up to the air force and the e i a s process was very thorough and very transparent and when they asked the public for their opinion they gave their opinion so now you're trying to say that that doesn't matter well that did matter and that was the information that the air force made their decision on and you know as i said you're speculating the adjutant general has said specifically there is no alternate mission for the aircar it's clear is that right to respond athletes when know i'm not speculating in a call i'm just using the words of the air force has said in the e i a s which i have here and i can show you afterwards and in court documents that i brought the air force says specifically the guard never needed the aircraft the guard can fly the judge crawford rules against us for that reason because we used your argument we said you never told us to air force that there would be no other aircraft here if the f thirty five doesn't come in the air force says yes we didn't tell you we told you four times judge crawford said yes they did tell you they told you there will always be a flying mission for the f thirty five these are not my words these are words from the air force and these are words from the federal judge  us as if there are citizens that have concerns that if they take those concerns to their fellow voters and they get five percent of the voting public to agree with them that this is something that they can bring to their city council city government and have it put on the ballot the thing yes is that in this case the decision has already been made the air force is not going to change its decision and the way that the wording of the ballot item was written was very deceitful it was very disingenuous because of the fact that showing support for the guard is not saying we're taking away your future please vote on taking away the livelihood of eleven hundred people i'm told do you have some country they are not equivalent to the aircraft we're talking about there are twenty four other air guard units in the united states that fly military aircraft that are compatible with areas such as ours a residential area most of them have to do with transporter cargo c one thirty c seventeen right so the fact that we have a fighter bomber here and of another fighter bomber coming that will increase the noise four times based on what the air force said and will impact the population doesn't mean and that's a given there were two air guard units just in the past few years that swapped from fighter bombers to cargo aircraft why because the noise was destroying to the f twenty two the f twenty two is the most dangerous aircraft right now the air force is flying it is the aircraft that air guard pilots refused to fly because it was killing them and they went on sixty minutes to complain about it so when i read that that's how that's how safe the air force expected the f thirty five to be that's very concerning then we learned that our runway barely meets the minimum length for an f thirty five on takeoff why is that important because crashes according to the air force and according to statistics happen most often on takeoff and landing when you don't have a very long runway it gives the pilot fewer options if the flight emergency happens it happened already at a good air force base  thirty five caught fire on takeoff the guard luckily the pilot luckily was able to escape the f thirty five because he was able to stop it in time eglin has a ten thousand foot runway with a little bit over eight thousand feet so that increases the danger of this weapon system which is brand new never been operationally deployed before the other to five has actually had hundreds of thousands of flying hours now and it is rated as the safest right now and i understand your pick cherry pick all your information about what it is that's going to prove your point but the fact is is that you're speculating the air forces in the know and the air force out like i was on your green they are in the air force absolutely knows more than you do and the adjutant general knows more than you do and they're bringing the stat here because it's been fully vetted and it is the choice for the my air national guard we are very proud that the rely on national guard the first guard currently has up to fifteen million dollars of construction work at the airport for runways and adapting the haters so that money is invested in people that money is invested in construction for understanding that the comments were for asked for it not just questions i thought i guess my question then would be why would the proponents of this ballot i don't reduce themselves to trickery in the face of the folders in order to get this put forth and that i will add another comment that this is simply an advisory question and is just like available you very much so i hear that so i hear and that question here that we have and we have some and we actually get into this we have some pretty complicated differing massive property tax value decreases home losses in neighboring towns there's various claims on noise levels numbers of flight take off viability of the vermont  yes that you know the vote of no is the only way that you're showing true support for the air guard because there is no alternative mr and that they can speculate all their want the adjutant general has said no alternate mission this is the safest aircraft skies right now as far as military jets are concerned and the low noise level that they keep claiming is not it's actually going to be quieter an f sixteen that and a lot of areas of the state so yeah again vote no on question like the voters to do is to vote on the facts nicole has said a number of times speculation this is not speculation it's in the environmental impact statement if if they want to know the page references that say the f thirty five is four times louder it's in here they go the web site i've cited the pages in here if they want to know the other aircraft that the air force said the air guard could fly that in the legal documents that are also on our website so it's not speculation it's fact the united states air force i served thirty years on active duty in the air force they own the aircraft they set the mission for the air guard they give the guard the aircraft the air force says there are air force said it in court documents as most recent as last year that there are other aircraft if the f thirty five doesn't come here there are other aircraft the air guard to fly they said specifically they are guard will always have a flying mission not speculation air force words in court documents so what i'd like the voters to do is look at the court documents i'm not speculating i'm giving you page references so you can read it yourself you don't take my word for it on the similar worry we had a russian engine on the ballot that's sad the voters of burlington strongly support the members of the armed forces in iraq and believe the best way to support them is to truly believe what it is that you read but it is past tense all that was about what was optional to the air guard up until the basing decision now that the basing decision has been made we can't sit there and say oh thanks but no we're going to table we don't have to cherry pick it isn't on our cart it's a matter of once the e i a s process is complete and the air force made the decision that we're going to receive the jet if we pass on they have thirty five we get nothing it's done lights out it's of after thirty seconds we have two calls on the phone and i'm going to do something here to our director that we probably haven't done and well we're going to let this go over about fifteen minutes so you may l covered yet but i'm curious to know about how the guard station as i understand it is to protect our monitors and i would not really understanding making seventy five percent of what is livable and damaging the health of children officials have taken stands in the city of new ski and in the city of salt burlington and i wonder if both sides would give about two minutes to talk about what you feel about that or think about the impact and specifically how those cities have weighed in on this  and again i want to remind everybody that this is about the f thirty five on the ballot issue yeah yeah and as an advisory referendum not so much about who supports the guard more thank you well the thing is is that this was already posted the wrong to the city council four years ago and it was based on the fact that the council voted to support the f thirty five that was in part what the the air force made their decision on the south b council has weighed in that they support the f thirty five and the city when they tried to sue the government and they lost so what we're seeing is a try and change at the last minute of a decision that's already been made now when you see actually is an example of how the city actually is thriving even though they aren't well aware of the fact that the f thirty five is coming and the gr of the city that is lowering the property tax it's thriving there is then more construction in the last five years in that city and you know high rise apartments with condos that are going at top price and they're full fully aware of the effort the five coming so again the voters need to know that this is a decision that the councils have already w and that to have this on the ballot that supporting the f thirty five supporting the guard is a vote no one questions xx nicole has mentioned before that there was a public process whereby regular citizens could convey their wishes to the air force and the air force produced those comments i happened thousands of pages of comments and sixty five percent of the comments they received or were against the basing thirty opinion it's the words from the air force i have air force documents i have court documents it's not an opinion if if nicole are says that there is no other mission and the guard will close well that directly contradicts what the united states air force said in court so show me the proof i have the documents the judge ruled basically using the words of the air force saying yes air force you told us if the f thirty five doesn't come here the air guard will continue to have a flying mission like they have for the last few decades so i have the documentation it's not an opinion it's the fact it's a fact that it's four times louder the air force said that it's a fact that there are other missions the air force said that it's a fact that other places have the military has reversed basing decisions that's a fact i can prove all that in documents what we hear from other folks is opinions unsubstantiated by facts if you can show me your documents i brought mine to show you on guns just remembering a fact that when you s five percent of when you ski according to the air force is going to be in an area that the federal government deems unsuitable for residential use that comes to over five thousand people the air force said that the federal government said that when you put that you understand the documents as your opinion as you view them the when you every you say that there is an alternative mission it's part you set yourself the word said it's past tense up until the basing decision there may have been other mission this is after the bay now that this incident has been made this is three years after the base down if you have an alternate fashion or three so we have some we things about for mars is that the founders of our state made the citizens the rulers and the and their elected representatives the servants that's in article six of the constitution so this is so again hearkening back to the f thirty five is the saved it safest aircraft in the military right now the f sixteen the my air guard the safest in the country  because of our excellent maintainers but we also have commercial jets that fly in and out of here that their rate of accident is much much higher than we would ever think to see with a military jet now of course none of us ever want to see anything crash at bronze international airport but when you look at the danger you look at the toxicity levels you look at a fully loaded fed ex plane and the car pozen materials that are in that jet in everything that there could be in there military jet crash rate is at least ten times higher than that of commercial jets much much higher however the f sixteen crash really has gone down significantly this the military jet that's based at the airport now over time when it first got here in one nine hundred eighty six it had the fleet of f sixteen s had a crash rate triple what the f sixteen crash r now so as they're as they've had experience with crashes these planes improve the f sixteen s had three hundred fifty rashers in its thirty year a lifetime but it had seventy seven crashes before it was brought to vermont it had a million flight hours before it got to vermont nine hundred eighty six the f thirty five is a the a version that we're going to get is going to have fewer than one hundred thousand less than one tenth so it's going to have much less learning much less experience much less flight hours we're going to have a much more dangerous plane but it roseanne pointed out and and the whole actually alluded to the plane is made a military composite material that burns in a crash so the crash consequences are going to be even worse with toxic chemicals particulates and fibers thousands of pounds of these team has they are second to none and how they have been trained and they know exactly what they're dealing with when it comes to any type of military material but again because you have fed ex and commercial to try to compare fighter bombers with commercial aircraft was asked about a difference that's that's of the common sort of interesting to read right but the air force and the military when they when they build military aircraft they use a different kind of composite material in addition to that however the f thirty five has a chemical stealth coating that is classified we do know because we have exposed witness this is that when that burns that can kill people and it has it at area fifty one thank you if it's a it seems like it seems like a big part of this is again this pretty complicated issue very facts and whether this is a referendum on the guard or referendum on the f thirty five you know in the city council at that point so the current mayor stated you know unequivocal support for the f thirty five coming to to the airport candidate current interest school has stated that she will move with the will of the people and candidate infinite called pleasure has said that he opposes the thirty five so depending on the vote what are you hoping the city council on the marijuana do and if we can just have a minute from each side in the back and forth and then we'll have some closing statements i can do in fifteen seconds or less an listen to the people we are a democracy and go with what the majority of the individual more specifically what would they like how would they if if the people vote that they do not want the f thirty five here but rather will want another aircraft then it would behoove i think it's incumbent on the city council the mayor to communicate that to the air force two  i think the air force we need for anyone to ask them when they see the vote they're going to replace the f thirty five with another mission the f the air force was pressured to bring the f thirty five here in the first place we know that because of the lawsuit we have discovery and the documents that we got in the sky every show that the air force one is pressured by senator leahy so we know that this is a pressure decision when the people of the growing vote vote yes on ballot item six to cancel the f thirty five i think all of the political leaders in the state and the air force will control as much as we absolutely if we honor the fact that we are given in this democracy a voice but the thing is is that we've already been given a voice within the e i a s comment period and i don't believe that  voters that truly support the guard and support the f thirty five they don't want another mission they want the f thirty five voting all of them but when the results of this election  tally a letter will go to the secretary of the air force and the secretary of the air force well accepted about did they say it or didn't so this is from march thirteenth two thousand and sixteen as part of court documents the air force said inform the public that of burlington was not selected the bases current mission would continue then they said on march the seventh twenty six sixteen many of sixteen's are being retrofitted to extend their service life integrating the air into a mass a redistribution of a sixteen throughout the fleet including the national guard and reserves had the air force not decided to at burlington the present f sixteen could well have been replaced by other f sixteen s and finally judge crawford in his ruling on august the ten twenty sixteen said there is no indication in the record that defendant that sea air force has decided to close of ramadi or guard base if the f thirty five does not a route arrive the record shows the opposite plight or pain planes of one description or another will continue to be based at the vermont air national guard and that's on page thirty four which just like to we're going to go back to nicole and you're going to actually have the last word only i think that this is great as much as we disagree as much as we're going to go back and forth about what you think and what i think when reading the same material it's that  behalf of the air guard he is speaking on behalf of the air force there is no alternate mission for the air guard and by voting no on item number six you are reinforcing your true support for the air guard way to support the men and women is to get them equipment that's compatible with their location in a densely populated area so that they don't harm thout thousands of families especially the children whose cognitive development will be impaired by the extreme noise of the f thirty five which as rosanne pointed out and the air force makes clear in the environmental impact statement they did the measurements they made the well they wrote it up in their document it's going to be more than four times louder than the thirty five i think we have to receive then the f sixteen i think we have to respect the voters that they can read science that they can read the resolution carefully they understand that the best way to support our men and women in the guard is to give them the right kind of equipment and not give them inappropriate twenty seven to twenty eighteen and i'm in burlington we also have a walk in if you're not registered rockridge into your poll and you can register on the same day to vote or you can go today tomorrow