room also there is a sign in sheet so make sure and sign a sign in sheet because that establishes your presence here and you can then be a party to continue deliberations on the matter if  out one is right back the way you came in or these two doors here and if there is an emergency we will meet in the south parking lot which is right behind us here and a sign up sheet is another reason to  public unrelated to the agenda that i would have any comments or questions on items that are not related to the agenda scuse me number for announcements a wednesday ok so like you said my name stuck to me i'm starting with the least partly one of the things i do for the police department is crisis planning for the city we've been in front of the commission board before to talk about the crisis plan for the city but we haven't done very much sense and we had an incident that came up a few months ago in city hall that's part what constitutes somebody acting suspicious so i was asked to come in in front of all the missions in all forms and  speak to the committees about what constitutes suspicious behavior you'll hear me say a couple of times to manning that it's behavior and actions that are suspicious not people people are not suspicious what they do me so what are some of the indicators of suspicious activity so some of things that you might see as somebody who walks into a room and start scanning around the room and looking for where the exits are where the escape routes might be if they're going to do something criminal they want to know how to get out of the world police officers can we do that on a normal basis we walk into a woman we look for exits we look for where people might hide that's not suspicious on my behavior but someone who's not a police officer it may be suspicious someone looking in to or walking into a room and looking around and seeing how many people are in a room who might have cameras on them who might have tape recorders or cell phones looking for witnesses those things could be suspicious again could be suspicious may not  be if you don't know that's one of police come into the situation and we figure out if somebody is being suspicious somebody looking for where security might have their office or where back up we come from  hairs on the back your neck set stand up get that intuition this is more something's not right when you feel that it probably is suspicious something probably is not right when that happens all the police will come in and talk to trying to do one of these things about looking at security looking for again witnesses with cell phones those are things that are suspicious people hiding from being reported it is suspicious most people don't people asking inappropriate questions in the situation that sparked this whole conversation here did city hall it was somebody who came into city hall and asked the receptionists some inappropriate questions you know stuff like that appropriate for mission that someone may have and i don't know if any of us truly live by the way or the city manager stuff like those kind of questions people information people should not have w is inappropriate it could be suspicious people asking about building layout hey where's the city manager office is it still upstairs still the front of the building you know this is his office next to the city planners office those things like better most people don't need to know that how many employees in the building right now were words everybody ran out of your service here in the building or now those are questions normal people don't ask and don't need to know if somebody is asking those those questions they're acting suspiciously other than the standing up here giving a presentation and sweating sweating inappropriate suspicious so if it's thirty degrees outside and somebody is what eight profusely and they didn't just come from the gym they could be suspicious could be acting suspiciously  going in and out of the building so you've all heard of the biker flame syndrome that people go through so walking in and out of the building repeatedly repeatedly is it your body going through that fight or flight syndrome in a bad guy case what they're thinking in their head and their body trying to determine is do i combat my crime do i not really commit my crime do i not so they're going in and out trying to make up their mind whether or not they're going to do something bad or not repeated phrases muttering to themselves they're trying to get themselves psyched up to do the crime and then if you've got a fence and don't offer your don't the thousand yard stare that's acting suspiciously you see somebody doing that once they come into the building and they still refused to figure he had other pockets that could be suspicious going to give hear me say could be maybe there could be a great explanation for any one of these things by themselves we don't know but that's what i do i go when i approach somebody and i talk to them and i find out if their behavior suspicious if you see this stuff and it gets the hairs on the back your neck going you just get that little spidey sense go on that something's not right it probably isn't called police fevrier just imploding it's kind of a big one and what that could be is some it's got a weapon on you know a police officer been a police officer for about thirty years i'm very comfortable carrying a gun on my head but even me every day put my hand on my gun make sure it's still there make sure you know that we can get at it bad guys are used to wearing weapons on their sides and what they'll end up doing is that every two or three seconds are still making sure it's there they don't have those holes or it's like we do with the police station they don't have the good equipment so they make sure hasn't slowed down their pants or something like that you see somebody keep checking their clothing correct specially around their waist line that's acting suspicious that's a reason call the police if they keep looking at a certain article of their clothing that could be suspicious as well again it could be looking at a weapon war it could be looking at where they've placed a package war where they're going to commit the crime they're going to hit somebody on the side of the head or some so they keep looking at the side of somebody's head that could be suspicious activity backwards kind of like the t s a thing at the airport unattentive packages in this day and age are suspicious you see somebody walk in put a package to hunt and turn around and walk out that suspicious and we want to know about this case here i actually from i remember a case of police in sweden a bus station in sweden and it was very benign it turned out to be a big package of fish what it points down the bus station for about five hours because it's a suspicious package you just don't know what it is so again i don't i'm not going to pick up a lot of your time but i just want to end with racial profiling as talk about that real quick factors race ethnicity religion those things are not suspicious again remember it's behaviors and actions that are suspicious not people people by themselves are not suspicious of what they do and how they act that can be suspicious and remember very helpful thank you very much and if you do have questions at some point in the future you can always give me a call the police department parcel which will be reviewed under separate site plan application at three twenty one and three twenty five  we came in a couple of weeks ago for the sketch plan application are here for a final and we have two letters about parking you know both letters just to clarify our from the scene person she sent a letter current letter in that she sent a copy of the letter that she has in the back  letter which i forwarded to the board this morning describing her opinion on whether or not a suit that buys read the summary that sort of take home that letter is unconstitutional declaratory judgment which the city without restating the whole opinion which the city attorney goes on to explain a great month is a slightly different thing  requires the state of affairs where two parties are close enough to a live case or controversy so that it is appropriate to determine their rights on their request to avoid unnecessary litigation it's broadly stated in the drumheller case which is discussed at length in the city attorney's opinion of that because there was an actual contract between the two parties the question before the board was not an abstract question we don't answer abstract questions and therefore was not advisory opinion opinion but was a request for the club retore judgement i'm not saying independently whether i agree with the city attorney's conclusion i'm just explaining a little bit in this declare a tory judgment i will say this i've looked at a draft of a document that you don't have but that the board does and the problem i would have with it will tell margaret is that it doesn't any of those facts on which the city attorney relied there's nothing in here without rejecting the city attorney's principle or the facts that she was relying on when she ranted pinions i don't see any of those facts before us in the draft decision in this draft decision there it was so there is no basis on the face of this decision for rendering a judgment other than an advisory judgment and i think it's if if if we take if we decide if the board decides to accept the city attorney's  so if we have enough information we can close we can close tonight and beef up because that information from the city  records somewhere then it's a matter of picking those facts out of the record inserting them as the basis for our jurisdiction into the into the findings and it would work fine again i want to make clear i'm not making we've been presented with that says the owner of large b may be in possession of development rights which exceed the maximum development potential of lot b but doesn't make any sense to the point of that and a couple other places in the funding force in this document is that development rights may be transferred to a person they do not necessarily need to be transferred to a parcel of land someone can own development rights and  tonight as soon as possible we have a closing date of october fifth but this should be done pretty well ahead of up because other things  so is it a possibility to get the information that train quits prenup and make a decision based on that ahead of that meeting or is that really the only time that would be possible to make that decision that's the board sort of assemble for a special meaning deliberate on that i want us yes if that's possible and so the idea would be to have it work as quickly as possible because you also have a you have a like a review period and appeal period or something like that  and so that is something else that has been sort of september fourth there's plenty of time before october fifth it's true there's a thirty day appeal period so you'd be fine on your closing day if we did it tonight you know your appeal period would run out but it's also possible you know to the risk is pretty slight that anyone is going to care about this highly technical issue i think and secondly you could postpone your closing ten days that's not entirely up to us so that may or may not be an option in any event i only said what i think the law is the board will decide what is going yeah and i think that makes total sense i would ask if it's possible if you could make a decision at that september fourth date that would be written that would help seen i know you've seen it bill in two thousand and sixteen it had a sketch plan application and that was preceded by a few meetings we had a couple sit downs for staff technical committee before that sketch plan the project itself is on a five point eight acre parcel clarification you should say currently two parcels they're both phone by the  gardeners so what had happened when we were in and twenty sixteen the other parcel was not yet owned by the gardeners it was part of the south burlington real realty company and it was part of the park planning on limited frontage that we have on heinsberg road to the north of the entrance road is a class two wetland in a fit the foot buffer of which we have a minor impact with the sidewalk to the wetland and then there's also the buffer impact where that road comes in but the starting point and the end point of this road are fixed the alignment i will suggest is fixed it's a public road and it needs to meet public road requirements so the radio meets the public road requirements misses the existing home and one item that's in the staff notes that's new that had never been discussed is the possibility or the suggestion of removing the house we in no way want to remove the house value it would be updated but it fits the it fits the the alignment that is set by the public portion of the road certainly there's other aspects of the layout that could be looked at one thing i'd like to do is to here and reduced it by one unit the other one of the other common themes from from staff was the common enemy area which we have been in this vicinity and there used to be two  here so on the plan they gave you there was two units one unit has been removed we did the gardeners did hire terry krinsky landscape architect he has looked at something additional layouts for this common amenity area we again spend two years and two to try to get to some common ground before moving forward with the with the or b and that may be finalizing the design of because i don't think that it's appropriate tonight for me to take that much of your time but i mention the class to wetlands here predominantly north of the entrance the entrance is where it needs to go  from wetlands has been out here with us that's the only wetland that has some reasonable qualities she understands that we need to get a road in and she understands that where we're doing it has the minimal impact on that well with that said that will require a wetland permit from the state there is a depression all heavy soils out here every soils relatively flat site so any place that was not rated reasonable is going to be wet in the spring so there is a weapons fire here in the spring extremely marginal not a concern that's class three that's not a concern to the state but that's one of the areas that we are  looking to impact and then there is a wetland here the last three wetland that will be preserved there's a couple wetlands here that the wetland consultant you'll need in bruce as actually suggested they ask what we planned on doing here the drainage from this first of all those to this corner so that's the natural place that you have to take care of the storm water what we are looking to do would be  require states to warm water permit on that plan one change that that i've talked to gardeners about that we certainly are willing to make you'll see that while we reduce by one unit here and we reduce by one unit here we're going for three and twenty sixteen and twenty two the reason for that is there was an increase of three units a year these are small units mr gardner was approached by the city manager and was asked if the curvy road units would fit on the site and those are the curvy route humans whether at a certain point grad it was unknown whether that would actually occur and brad said well i'm willing to build the same unit as as affordable units if that's the case i think just because of the density concern that we're better off reverting to the three units that we had in that corner so what i'm saying is is that it would be of twenty unit project versus the twenty three unit project these five followed the industrial line came down the form a lot line which is right here and down here just follow that line there's not a good reason that it follow that line other than that was the property line because if you're heading south there is no view you're just looking into the houses there's no distant view of the mountains the distance view of the mountains is about when you get to just about close to this property line because this is a mature tree line here so if you're travelling north you're blocked from any of you until you get to read about it here these were one story proposed as one story units and that was to mitigate view few protection wasn't talked about specifically view was talked about and both of these duplexes are one level units this was a front facade with a front porch which came up before and we also recognize that it doesn't seem to meet the waiver section of your regulations so we will likely be seeking with a planning commission to see whether or not one item at the bottom of page two it says d p w firestorm order police have not yet reviewed the application staff is usually the one that seeks that review it sounds like it'll come at a later date i will say that the they were involved in two thousand and sixteen and we made the changes that were requested then the only change that i can recall was public works i don't recall fire having a question of l sprinklers which is mentioned in the staff notes and i'd like that to be deferred to the fire department but i may i may not recall that quite correctly but here wanna know where the hydrants were both of the private roads are less than two hundred feet and there's hydrants on the road so that's within their normal length of hose so i don't know that i'm sure they'd like them but i don't know that they're going to require sprinklers one question before  sixteen one of the one of the main main items of input was that this is a fair amount of units for this piece and the density for this piece is twenty three twenty with with t d r s and we're at twenty three on that plan so going back to three we're at twenty we're you know we're below the maximum with the those you know we need to meet the regulations which which includes more than that but these these do meet the regulations as far as setbacks and fall below for my question i'm sorry i wasn't clear my question is by going back to larger units or are these only eliminated so very so what is now what is now shown as somewhat affordable homes are not going to be as affordable if the general consensus of the board is preference of those six units we don't have a problem with that either we're trying to react to the density concerns and this was specifically to start to address the density concern and so i do too we talked about we will follow up with the planning commission and staff on a few protection zone item three it is our intent to keep the existing home as part of part of item three item four as shown on our plan tonight the six units create see another issue that we didn't think of but your private ro in south burlington have this weird it's it's kind of weird to be honest you can do nine units on a private room however no more than five can be of any one type so if unit ten and eleven were combine are two duplex problems solved because there's four singles and one duplex but the problems also solved if we go back to the three units that we previously envisioned in that corner the only reason that it went to the six was was to react mr gardner reacting to the question from the city on whether or not that area could could take curvy road units it's either or six kirby's or three big homes or would you just well know it i guess it's it's flexible and we would need input from the board and or staff moving forward you know if it's like we'd still like two of those and one of the others or three of those and one of the others any configuration in that corner is fine it all falls under the maximum at this point i guess we would be asking for feedback  but it's not all we're open to anything in that corner that corner has the least impact on any of the neighbors so if you use the term perpetually affordable if they were the six what makes them perpetually affordable just that they won't do or are you going oh there would have to believe there would have to be legal documents to ensure that there perpetually affordable coverage that also falls as i understand what would brad was what brad understood and i wasn't part of the conversation but what brad understood when that was addressed was that with those being moved there and being perpetually affordable that his risk his his input to me was that i don't need t d r s for those if they're perpetually affordable i think i think the the reality is that there's bonuses available if you do perpetually affordable so that was one of the potential benefits that brad could see is that he didn't have to use on the three units there and he could at the time address an issue that was apparently there of where do we put these curvy road units and then as a follow up to that he just he said well even if they don't get the curvy road units here i'm still willing to build  which i would point out something about i don't know would you put the picture back up there again because i think we've come a on this the affordable units into the community of which it support i don't suggest this is a deliberate strategy on your port but the if the impact of what i see there is you know it can blunt terms here's the regular people going up in this corner we've got the court it's just such a nice neat little row of six units off to the side by them is there any potential mix you know is there any potential for dispersing the affordable units can i can see i can see why you would ask that question frank but i don't think that on this site that that's true this is a relatively small site so they're not it's not that you go through the development and then you've got the condos the small condos in the back or something these are an interval part of this community they're right you know that they're right amongst everything in you know there's there is a fair amount of density here so what we try to do is we try to these are large single family lots back here the lots on wildflower are quite as large so we're trying to get per year regulations and mix a mix of housing here and i do think we've done a good job of that where we've got some single family lots we've got some duplexes that are one level and we've got some single units and in this in this case we've got the smaller units there but that that was done to try to address why i think the that is allowed with your approval to try to get that density areas close as as reasonable to it but also propose something that has anything has an impact but doesn't have the largest impact on the neighbors so that's what we tried to achieve so i don't i wouldn't say that if the board likes the idea of these units and or if we're seeking input from the affordable housing committee and i would point out that it will not be poor people the the affordable housing in south burlington the number still quite high a little hyper to so it so so affordable housing in south rolling to still have a pretty good number that a fair amount of people can afford so it'll be a reasonably a very reasonably priced structure because of the size because they're relatively small but we can look at it but i don't see a good place toward unless we were to try to switch switch things up and the benefit even  even when we had the three units there the three units weren't very deep units they were just more rectangular unless this house gets removed this is this layout and or the three units is kind of what we end up in that corner we can't put this design we can't put back design it just doesn't fit there's not enough room unless that house was removed and we don't see any good reason to remove a perfectly good house this is this is a driveway this is a private road so this is this one here's a private road with parking spaces right here so that comes right right by the house the lot line for that house comes down this side the drive into the back so that's all  you know a little bit a line area right in there and around that corner but not very far off the house is the edge of the road amount of length on that road unless we were to propose a project that was all small units you would not yet you would you would you would not yet to the density w any time you add road you out impervious you take away area you have less open space and it didn't meet john a tree to do that either but that was one of the suggestions when we when we sat down with staff prior to the sketch plan before so so we feel that with this being fixed that these two appendages are are somewhat necessary they both meet your requirements this one would have to either combine one to meet the requirement with  six units but they're both less than two hundred feet in length so they do meet the requirements of the regulations and while we will sit down with staff and look at what we can do we think that the main thing we can do is to get feedback from staff work on a common amenity area work on what this project looks like from a perspective view and then on a separate on a separate thing we have to pursue units one through five with the the planning commission in regards to the view protection zone item seven i've kind of beat to death a little bit but that's where i talked about prince key and moving forward with with more design there we do feel that that's a plum  with meeting with staff we would like the possibility to move forward and then the gardeners can more easily spend money on additional consultants and in getting that level of detail a five point how big it's almost six acres and then nearly an acre of it is being provided is common land and about another half an acre is what one buffer right front area is probably in that range i'm not so you know let me just say i don't have a problem with the part parkland per se so far i mean i think it needs more development i think we need to understand better what it's got how it's separated from other housing and so forth we can deal with that layer as far as i'm concerned so that's not my issue my issues density i think it's too dense and i thought it was too dense before i think it's too dense to and i don't think removing three of the units and replace three of the small units and replacing them with larger units makes it less dense i think it's just as dense so i have a i know what the plan i know what the all the r s called for i know what the max density is i understand all that i think is too dense we may approve up to twenty three if we don't have to yeah and actually that's never been entirely clear to me is that to be consistent interpretation of the board rationale from the board if they're not to you know it's both ways we have to show that we need the regulations of the board feels we don't i don't think it's a personal opinion let me assure you i do have one question it's not the intent is not for the intent here is not going to be for a active thing like a soccer field is going to be more of a passive a so i think that's where more detail will be helpful again i think it's the appropriate time to set one area with that said i think we will be sure we will be working on it directly with staff prior  planning the first time you know hopefully the first time that you guys see the details is that planetary but so while it is flat and wild is of reasonable size it's not intended that this is going to be a ball field an time you guys are here and the reservations i mean i have no problem trying to work stuff out which steph i hope you'll pay attention to and so you have a shear density concern and you have others including the duplexes that are going to fight as building area one common land at least from my perspective you would do well to keep the land under the buildings under those buildings common held in common and not sold as in fee because i think to do that was illegal but i don't think your regs addressed it one way or the there now and i'll certainly check with the gardeners as to whether they deal with heat on those is that the second you've probably heard of before but the secondary mortgage market gives a slightly well eight quite honestly yet i think i kind of addressed it i guess i didn't address it saying no to me i guess i don't quite understand it the suggestion is that we could single little the road and get the same number of units i don't see how you could do that unless you did all small units is if if you don't have units on the say the interior of the roadway if you  clarify what we were trying to say is if you remove these units and place them along a roadway that loops sort of like this so that the open space it's specifically called out in the in the on the artistic open space is is to put that open space within two roadways in between to i guess i wonder what the board feels about that because that doesn't make sense to me legitimate wetland that has functions and values is essentially being preserved with the exception of very minor impact the road where it has to go and then there is a stream lee marginal area here that's about six inch just wasn't graded properly and it's heavy soils and it becomes a class three wetland so that is proposed to be impacted this one's preserve these two would change to the gravel wetland gravel gravel which makes more sense because it does have a gravel bottom when you build those simple we think we're this design this this design we have the wetlands done for any layout before any input from staff we have the wetlands done here we we've been doing layouts for thirty five years and that's the way that you have to do it when you have wetlands so we do feel that this does a good job in regards to wetlands including our onsite visit with with the  state ten i went over to them eleven who talked about as far as items one through five seems like that's a planning commission one question that i have and maybe it's more of a staff follow up the timing for the planning commission from from paul connors input is sounds like if they were to agree that it may not be until spring of twenty nineteen and and we would be probably bumping up against an extension again or something to the can if there's something else going on at the time at the town or the city in time stav as far as getting in from flynn area because it doesn't make sense for us to come back until that issue is solved unless we're just putting our hands up and saying well the planning commission rezoned it but we can't use  five units can't have a scope so that's why we want to talk to the plain commission they were they were part of this and and it was for a reason that this land was being bought but  enough you know find out the answer really quickly that's why i wondered if if you if you don't have the authority whether it could be suspended you know like it's just as if  media well i don't suppose we did that would be up to staff we could submit and say we understand that one through five is conditional at best because it's it's can it has to if we extend it two months extent sketch for two months they'd be into november well they'd be almost in november know you'd have a lot more of an idea yeah if you if you know i don't want to come back in two weeks because we won't make much headway but if it can be two or even three months that that would solve the problem and i think i think you have the variety is as frank mentioned we do have five single family lots and then as i mentioned we have single units and duplexes and will will talk to the gardeners about the questions i think the road the roadway made i mean the roadways always made sense to you so i'm not in favor of pulling off some kind of separate roadway that creates a central park and the reason i like density in the southeast quadrant is because higher density means it's more affordable and if you don't have affordable housing which is why as you said we need to hear from your former husband committed if you don't have affordable housing the southeast quadrant it's just people who can afford not affordable homes and i'm not a fan of that at all so i really like density and i really like affordable housing in the southeast quadrant and sort of make the public sift through this philosophical discussion agree and i disagree i agree that in you know in a village setting small homes make all sorts of sense south south village works that way yeah that was a planned thing it's not six units off by themselves it's fifty units that look similar that are that are small homes with alleyways and it works that's that's a that's and that's where all of your instruction a couple of twelve instructions that works in north american text but what you've got here is a roadway the comes into this that is all single family homes butting into something that is far more dense it's inconsistent with the neighborhood i'm not saying that you can't i mean if the gardener if if this shape was was an l the opposite way and the and the current road stopped but the other looked at the other way and create its own neighborhood fine creek you know you can have but this is this is a continuation of a road and if i was a neighbor i would have problems with the fact that it's not consistent with my neighborhood with my direct neighborhood not that down the street on the left i mean the the rye neighborhood has has the ability to have both small and small and an apartment and and it and it's meant that way it was built that way it's intended to be a not necessarily big a affordable but of a more affordable type of housing mixed in with with and there's no snow large single family there it's there's sort of cottages and so again being philosophical here i i don't disagree that the southeast quadrant should have affordable housing where appropriate and and i actually mean i want the affordable housing committee involved in this because here's an opportunity to potentially get six units somewhere and six units of six units the housing committee is is funding i think two units a year or something like that it's not a lot so i'm not saying you're wrong bill i'm saying this may not be the place we or or we should hear from planning wildflowers circle exists because of gardeners because of their willingness to give the easement the road was always going through so again that that fixed starting point the fixed ending point the geometry that part's fixed you know so late like john said it's a matter of if yeah we know that you're allowed to do four units per acre with t d r s if you mean everything else but do you need everything else and that that's really what it what it boils down to a thin and so when he's talking about the potential to eliminate one leg or the other that is what we're talking about that that's how you that's that's the way that this project is less dense i don't think that gardner should be penalize because the developer that did the project next door that got these men from the gardeners did single family lots this is the southeast quadrant they bought up against the southeast quadrant no zone changes occurred here they all know that it can go up four units per acre or so so i don't lose sleep over that part i know it's we're trying to do less next to the neighbors with a single family in the back but while this isn't the same as the neighborhood that's not with the southeast part and supposed to be supposed to be a mix of housing it's not supposed to be all the same comments and while i would like to see a little bit different configuration of the two stubs to make it a little bit more no west oh yeah less dense i'm on the frugal side and before i'd love to see what's going to happen with that common land area i would wait until after i know what's happening with units one through five because you're one through five may not happen goal yeah ok to either the second meeting in october or the first meeting in november to give reasonable time after we hear from public some good he doesn't get murshid it's a heavy soils that in the spring because of the grading it gets wet the reasoning gets wet the reason that it was created is the existing dry so the existing dr comes in here to the house and it's his fill it's a filter i have so right up against the drive that drainage that may have gotten through for there's not a culvert there so it gets a little wet  standards but that is i would venture a guess that if you took the state wetlands division through the neighborhood of wildflower circle you might find a similar wet area in the spring and  so it's really the wetland consultant who's been working for longer than i have probably about forty years in the business to not delineate it the first time and land out there with the state the state s well yeah it's not much but you probably ought to put some flags there too so it's it's it will be addressed by proper drainage and it's plus three correct  being footprints condos whatever everything outside of the non single family homes is common land and then we have a designated area that there will be an amenity so this is the area that you want them to use it's not that they can't walk through this area but deal actually be something of delineation along that fifty foot buffer so whether that's whether that's seeders last time we talked the board in twenty sixteen didn't the input that we got was not to wall it off with landscaping that may be more like split real fence or we've done birdhouses before to your pocket or purse or public purse it's common for this development not for the jason developments that the sidewalk is there because that's the input that we got from public works back in two thousand and sixteen i don't want to say it's been too long but i want to state my good continuation we did we had proposed a crosswalk at that time and it was asked to be removed because they did not want to get bought crosswalks there was public waivers in areas like this but you know again respect for the neighborhood her wildflower sir we have kept those units out and again compared to last time one of the sentiments was those duplexes are just too big so it did the solid the solid surface and from paris on the just the parking lot in a row really segregated i don't believe them integrated at all i think the effect will be a parking lot in the roach study them all by themselves is there any possibility i don't know what's off to the right as we look at this thing but she has to be in a little room over there is there any possibility of getting the kind of cur ilinear configuration and the movie the fucking spaces behind the units moving them up in other words the units take up that space move the departing units behind them curve the road around and curve the six units and bring them around and move move move the space clear of the drainage area if you move move move move as the parking spaces with search soldiers in the back can certainly look at it if you try if this is the general starting point for this and you try to bring in a ruler around the back you're not going to have as much space you're not going to get six it's just you know the with the way it'll work with the interior radius just as with this lineman so forget the curvilinear for a minute there is less footage on the inside there's the outside so if you try to bring the route out and get the road around the back you might be able to make it work but those buildings you know if they're going to work they're going to be ten feet away from that house so instead of having a twenty foot grass tree here you're going to have these units up against this i mean i feel that we've given some clarity to what we'd like and i hope you guys he would say and i really appreciate the neighbors and everybody showed up and offered promise sold we will continue to  that you can keep an eye on the development review site for the city and every friday's it's posted so so what's going on the next week can see so if it gets changed for any reason you'll see it there it will never be moved large conservation element to our project and so john's going to be here to talk to that if you recall the last meeting there was a lot of staff comments and over the last couple months there was a lot of time we use it wisely to address those comments and we've incorporated everything we could into and the other items are in process  the big item was the was the road we've got the road our plan complies with all the conditions and from the highway department safety police everything else  plan incorporates that and it will be a five following the amendment with the state shortly so that's in process that was a big item and and that's moving along very quickly right now so that's it is in regards to the road and again we're fully comfortable with complying with all the rest of status comments and many of those comments were expected to be done by final plan and we feel like you know because we have the time now we've got the most i'm done now and then the forty acre natural area that will connect to other nature conservancy lands and shelburne and geographically you know from an aerial you can see that it really is sort of one piece and it's all of that abuts money brooke and it's i guess and then i just very quickly say you know the u n farm planned involved a lot of cooperation between my parents who were divorced in one nine hundred seventy five and only in their last few years of their life were they willing to sit down and come to an agreement and the amount mattress nature conservancy were a big part of that discussion that resulted in what we think is the best plan for the farm my father was very passionate about conserving the land as much of the farm is possible an pond and so we've we've engaged in about twenty two transactions with landowners around the pond and conserved about three quarters of the pond shorefront and it's been a big huge effort over a long period of time and so we're happy to be continuing that effort with this project that includes frontage on muddy road you know  and the goal of our work and children upon has really been to acquire these parcels and convey them to the university of vermont  which utilizes the land as a natural areas so it's a study area for students for professors there's a lot of research that goes on out there and and have it open to the public as well so so when we when we have done this in the past we have acquired the parcels and then conveyed them to the university of vermont with a revert or sometimes an automatic preferred or sometimes a non automatic revert or that if the property's used in any way that is not conducive to the fish and wildlife there on the property will revert to the nature conservancy so that's how we've handled all of the transactions up until now and we're proposing here is actually because of the expense of the property we will need support we will be looking for support from both local donors in the area  and as well as some funding that we have on hand and also the vermont house in a conservation the words of the round house and conservation board provides grants for fordable housing projects and as well as land conservation projects and we've  we've had good success in the past with clients for funds with the housing conservation board for these kinds of projects of so going forward with this project whenever the  didn't include anything pertaining to conservation so i reached out to peter who then recently john and john explained that in the emails that i thought were did you guys this morning they can't please  requirement of it as part of subdivision rick wiring that the property be conserved and appraiser would take a look at that and say well then the value has been  dramatically diminished to you know practically zero in common terms but you know obviously not zero but it does drop through the value considerably and you  know john ewing was very generous in making a bargain sale of the property from the original value that was established years ago through an appraisal and  you know but we're concerned that if both south burlington and shell burned make a requirement and it's part of the subdivision that you'd be conserved well that drops the value way below the purchase price that we have established here down here that you've seen and and we can't go forward because the nature conservancy were found were a five a one c very specific as to what the conservation plan is the board that has a lot of latitude but the conservation plan is required so we have a little bit of a chicken and egg situation stop has some ideas we're working with and some other people and some point of the conservation plan here is to keep any houses away from money brooke and it's part of you know the goal of expanding the shelter financial area and of course this is the output of shelter  in doing it with this plan we've taken the one two bedroom house and put it is far west as possible and very very far away from the natural area if the city was to say you know no game whatever and so then that you know i guess you know we would continue with our plan that parcel done would remain one model we would look at alternatives for bringing a road in down by so you know but it's not and the other thing is you have to keep in mind it's remain an enormous gift and this brought the purchase price of this piece of land down to extremely low numbers us but we obviously are grateful for this and that i mean just in terms of what we can actually educate it doesn't matter but personally i'm sure we all feel  street and i'm inclined to move on as as a moralist said to him and let them figure it out i think they've got a very long way from where we started and you know i'm inclined to see this thing through at this point that's that's this difference because when you say conservation easement you're talking about a formal document in the land records we're just talking about a requirement due to zoning so the requirement is what triggers the appraisal to have diminished value not not it not an easement per se but you know whatever agreement you say sign conservation agreement and you mean you know a well a we can't sign a conservation agreement and the reason that i said because  we're under contract to buy this land in a fee title we're not under contract to buy or for obtain a conservation easement from the south so that's not what our contract which you have  our contract is to purchase the land outright in fee full fee title not to not to conserve the property per se although that is our intent and the intent of the nature conservancy is the intent of what they're doing they would have gone through this trouble otherwise but the question is can we leave it to marlowe for final i think for the moment for tonight and we'll leave it to marlon staff to discuss with them to see if we can find a  more than fair market value for money and so the value drops to you know one thousand dollars an acre is something like that then we're way below what the appraisal of what the you know our contract says and so there's no way we can move forward with that we would not get approval of our chain of command and so this project would not happen in a go down we're going to or in shelters or go along with the rest of the board i mean is this point they've they've done they've accomplished everything we would normally expect them of them for and there's one hurdle to deal with and we don't know if that's a hurdle they can make and don't get just yet ok number two what conservation easement that is a standard conservation easement to the house in a conservation board and different form you know it's the same form but it's for a different parcel in the southern part of the state they use the same form a there was a conflict and we didn't amendment to unhitch those contract contracts originally that we were supposed to of close on the same date and that didn't happen so the vermeil interest rate got pushed off and it created a conflict so we didn't conflicts of interest ok and would you raise your right hand and promise to tell the whole truth the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and the penalty of perjury thank you very much  proposing to remove the existing single car garage to the right of that picture there and replace it with a two car garage with a connected mud room or breezeway depending on the language you use so requesting the step back a waiver for the east side of the  of either way it's dramatic all that's from the road so the road is not at the top of the line and if you go down further in the application there's survey plans in the survey plan show the distance from just after looking at this this point here we certainly could give a little bit more distance in their beliefs from the survey were twenty six point seven five to the property line now is from the street is that it's closer than your house is to the street now right closer than our than your current garage from the land survey certainly not professional reading these a period we're going to be eight feet from the property line in there are still room to the edge of the pavement right so the property line is on  the pavement and beyond the property line so you're closer to the property line than you are to that so you're five feet three and a half inches from the property line and seven feet something inches from the pavement were shows jonathan and that's not actually the pavement line miners on the right hand side there is that property line that's the plan reads property line is that is that small line interior to jonathan i don't know if that's right but it is reading seven foot eight three quarters to the property l eft hand side the zoomed in version of the land surveyors information shows the existing garage as it stands today property line and then the edge of the pavements represented there so the plan that jennifer has up right now is prepared by final answer me the plan the plan that looks a little prettier less prepared than the architect this is why in the exactly why we have the land using  down to five feet so he either yeah either way we can we have the authority to go there yeah all right i'm good it sounds like staff is happy with getting that close to the property line it doesn't look to me like it is horrendously out of character with the neighborhood looks to me like it's going to have nice additions so i'm ok with you guys when you think on the border from john jennifer above the garage above the garage will be finished for quite a bit of time to we have the resources and time to do it and they can use  looks like you're going from the existing fifteen point five percent maximum or building coverage up to the allowed twenty percent so right in line comments questions from the board away for the experts so given way inside the edge of the family ok i hadn't noticed that that's that's a huge and so we're talking about sixteen plus five exactly so it's going to be like twenty one feet from the strange there's an inset people would call a breezeway there's a little inset to the right of the garage doors some people would call that a breezeway and then there's a door inset in there to a mud room is that correct  it's there is a door there but it's inset years later there's an orphanage porch on the outside of it and one of the drawings you can see the instead it looks flat right but that's but this is what it's going to be it's not it's not the old fets not the old fashioned way that actually is open all the way through i understand what you're saying it's it's it's it's a it's an inset porch with a door to a much room breezeway probably the wrong word for yeah it's great next minutes from aug seventh two thousand and eighteen everyone's had a chance to read through them and see whether they reflected what was said