members of communicate come to and hopefully would feel free to attend and so it's a mixture of people in the audience today and i'm glad to have you all here i was planted to talk for maybe forty minutes or so about  my observations about events in venezuela at the moment and also reflecting on the trip that i took their march third to the eleventh and so i'll take about forty minutes to do that and then we would hope to have at least forty five minutes for questions and answers and discussion the formal part of the program would wrap up about four o'clock so that people can begin to imagine that is the time line but we have the room until four thirty if there are people who want to stay and talk informally so that's sort of what i have in mind but once again welcome i'm glad you're all here i wanted to be in by saying two things as sort of a preface to my observations about the development venezuela at the moment the first is that four weeks ago today at this hour i was sitting in a small community in the mountains in the foothills of the andes in the state of lara this hour had advocated for years there to have a secondary school in their town she was told initially five hundred people really couldn't justify a secondary school and there was one in a neighboring town but eventually she got the town to approve of that and the government built a secondary school in one take carmel it's a small agricultural village high in the mountains and she said at age forty six she went to that secondary school and graduated from high school and so she was so proud to tell us that she was one of the first graduating classes from the high school at age forty six and then she said the following year they made me the principal of the so and so she was off and running she also is a very strong leader in women's cultural cooperative in the town has done  remarkable work there in collaboration with with others over the course of many decades but she then said to us this year three of the girls who graduated from this high school are now in medical school they're becoming doctors they went to the university at no cost to them they're getting a medical education at no cost to them and for a little town of five hundred that never had a high school to produce three young girls who are now going to become doctors she said their parents are very proud of them and so the reason why i have been to venezuela seven times in the last ten years is that i have been experiencing that kind of change that's taking place in the lives of people social and economic and political change particularly for the majority of people who have been poor over time and so the reason why i have been there once and then twice and then on and on is that i have had the experience of seeing those changes taking place in people's lives so that's what draws me back and that's why i went again just a couple of weeks ago the second thing i want to say is that obviously the situation in venezuela is quite divided has been for some time  for some time i don't mean fifteen years i mean two hundred years because there's always a divide between the rich and the poor always in every country on every continent so divisions have not begun there in the last fifteen years they have simply been brought to the surface in ways that they haven't been before and so the divisions are there and have been and have been particularly stark for the last fifteen years as an experiment in social change has been going on there for many venezuelans who live in the united states it's not an experiment that they are in favor of and so the irony is that if people have venezuelan friends here in the u s frequently what they hear about venezuela is what is critical or what is concerning and that's the exposure that people have even if they have some small exposure to venezuelan citizens inside venezuela the divisions are there as well but the divisions thus far with the course of fifteen years have continued to produce a majority of people who continue to be in favor of the changes that are underway and so division is there it's here division is everywhere but it also needs to be acknowledged as part of the venezuelan reality what i want to do for forty minutes is simply reflect on the events of the last two months more or less and particularly the narrative which we have as we say now narrative or by talks about narratives ok fine so the narrative that has been in place for the last two months in most mainstream media and in most information that people in the united states have perceived the narrative is this the beginning on february twelfth a democratic movement peacefully assembling has been viciously repressed undemocratic government those of the three points that i think are relevant here a democratic movement peacefully assembling has been viciously repressed by an undemocratic government this narrative has led to actions now in both the senate and the house for example to bring sanctions against venezuela to increase aid to the opposition forces inside venezuela and has led many in the house and the senate to understand what is going on there as something that is a threat to the united states and it's something that anyone concerned about human rights  must act on in order to maintain their integrity that's the basic story if people have that point of view they have a complete right to that point of view but what i would like to say today is that the experience that i have had over the last ten years does not reflect that reality in my personal experience and so on to talk for a moment about that first democratic forces democratic forces there have been since one thousand nine hundred eight in venezuela nineteen separate national elections nineteen venezuelans love elections in fifteen years they've been one thousand elections they've elected a president four times they've elected national assembly several times they vote for governors all in the same day so every state gets elected the same day they vote for mayors three hundred thirty seven municipalities on the same day there have been votes to call a constitutional convention write a constitution approve a constitution amend the constitution venezuelans i would say are a very electoral society and particularly since one thousand nine hundred eight that has been the primary way in which the political dialogue has been carried out of those nineteen elections and this is the shorthand but this is it will help us in this conversation eighteen of the nineteen won by forces that are in favor of the social experiment that is underway in venezuela identified for most of us with the late of a child us but also representing a broad social movement there eighteen of the nineteen elections have been won by forces who were in favor of those changes one election has been won by the opposition in those elections they have been monitored by international monitors they have been judged to be fair and free and open jimmy carter who's carter center has been there monitoring the elections over the course of the last number of years last year declared venezuela to be the best  the best political system in the world best electoral system that was jimmy carter's judgment that having been there and monitored elections in ninety two countries he said that venezuela was the best electoral system that he had seen if eighteen of the one thousand elections over the last fifteen years have carried the majority for those who are in favor of the changes taking place in venice well then the persons representing the demonstrations over the last two months are the persons who won one of those nineteen elections let me say a word about the the feel of things in venezuela during elections that i've been present for in two thousand and four there was an effort to recall president chavez halfway through your presidency the constitution gives people the right to recall you so in two thousand and four there was a campaign to recall pr happen to be there at the time that that campaign was taking place on every street corner in caracas i'm not saying on some or many or most on every street corner in caracas there were card table set up with information pro and con the referendum there was debate discussion going on nonstop every day including using car horns and here's an anecdote that i found  interesting when i observed it the slogan for those who wanted president chavez to continue in two thousand and four was to chavez nelson who chavez isn't going anywhere but it had a rhythm going and someone on the other side of the intersection would have the opposition's rhythm to that and they'd have their car horn going and there was a political debate going on every time there was a red light at an intersection between the contending forces there's a very interesting development in the eighteenth of the one thousand elections the margins of victory particularly when president chavez was running for president were frequently forty five fifty five sometimes sixty forty at one point it was sixty four thirty six for other elections there was almost always a difference of sixty to forty percent except the one that the opposition won i was present for that election as well there were many being proposed to the national constitution chavez had proposed do want them all together so you voted for all whatever was fifty six or eighty two all one time you didn't get to pick and choose it was either up or down on all of them so at one am one am live in you came on television i was there we had been looking at people voting that day they came on t v and they said well the opposition has won by one quarter of one percent congratulations he said the struggle continues now i'm a basically decent person but if i were interested in rigging an election myself and the results had come in with one quarter of one percent difference between me and my opponent i might be tempted even though i'm basically a decent person to fudge a bit has anything ever been closer than one quarter of one percent there was no fudging there was an announcement there was congratulations and then the struggle continues that's the one election that in fifteen years the opposition has prevailed and so when we talk about democratic forces responsible for the current demonstrations and disruptions and been as well we're talking about those who have over the last fifteen years at least not garnered a majority of the support of their fellow citizens eighteen times out of nineteen and it means that whatever definition of democracy they have which is their definition apparently does not include accepting the results of elections that have happened again and again and again and again last april after the death of chavez nicolas maduro ran for president ran against  a much in our margin a percentage and a half sort of like some of the obama bush clinton results of recent years not not a result that's unheard of in the united states or other parts of the world but a percentage and a half difference not the old sixty forty not the old fifty five forty five much closer and after saying that the results were not accurate but of course everybody said that they were monitored internationally the opposition said if in the course of the summer last year when we vote for mayors in december we'll have the chance to show this government what we really think about it fine every election is a plebiscite on the incumbent ok that's good american civics and so they said over and over again what happens in december will show how unpopular this government is and so the president who was elected close to fifty one to a little over forty nine the election of the mare's won fifty eight forty two in terms of election nationwide so having framed it as this will be our chance the difference was actually wider and so the democratic forces are those who have been in that electoral kind of contest now for fifteen years and inside been as well at least have not garnered the majority support of their fellow citizens it is a little bit like this and here's the analogy which i think is the right one because we'll move on next to what the actual demonstrations and actions have looked like but here's what is the right an ogy for us if john mccain and sarah palin had refused to accept the results of the presidential election and now we're encouraging their supporters to be at major intersections in major cities around the united states to block those intersections to set up barricades to engage in activities that i'll get into later that went well beyond peaceful demonstrations and if they were doing it because they said we're not going to accept the results of the election then we're going to keep this up until barack obama leaves office that's essentially the  analogy that we should be thinking of well they have the right to do it well sure is it something that we would live with comfortably or felicitously probably not and so i think it helps sometimes to translate what we're talking about there with what we be talking about here if we have the same situation so that narrative democratic forces but democratic does find in a rather unique way democratic the international picketed and handed out things to everybody going into the thing into the concert saying that the government was pressing the right to freely assemble and that that's what was at stake here that human rights were being violated  on a massive scale and it was people who were peaceably assembly let me just say for the record if i thought that a place that i were visiting seven times in ten years was oppressing democratic forces that were peaceably assembling in a bishop's way be saving my airfare for some other destination so peaceably assembling what has been happening since february twelfth and actually a little for that is that in major cities now six major cities but of the three hundred thirty seven municipalities in venezuela eighteen have experienced disruptions in the last two months eighteen out of three hundred thirty seven which is five percent it's still a disruption and some of those have been in the six larger cities so this i'm not quantifying it but i'm saying that eighteen out of three hundred thirty seven have actually seen disruptions taking place the disruptions have looked like and felt like this blockades at major intersection particularly in areas of the cities caracas as the primary example in the middle class or upper middle class or elite sections of the city there's been no disruptions in poor or working class neighborhoods none of the disruptions have occurred in middle class and upper middle class  have been in those sections of caracas and they began with pulling junk onto the streets burning tires and so forth and so on but there have been also molotov cocktails police cars have been burned police stations have been attacked clinics have been attacked what's being described here consistently yes peaceful demonstrations have not been peaceful demonstrations they have been blockades which are interfering with traffic and people's right to come and go and there has been violence attendant to almost all of them in response to that we'll get to that in the third part there has been a response by the venezuelan government to restore order as i daresay this is a guess but as i daresay that would be in any society faced with the sort of situation that has obtained in men's well for the last two months the barricades in caracas for example are such that in major parts of the wealthier sections people have had a hard time getting to school a hard time getting to  work they have been also in other parts of the country for example in america one of the emergency hospitals in america which is a university town has recorded a seventy five percent decrease in emergency room  admittance is because people cannot get to the hospital because the major intersections in the major streets and roads are blocked significant and marietta and so there have been efforts on the part of other people then to come and clear the streets so we're in caracas beginning of march the thursday that we were there the sixth and here's what happened in a supporter of the government finally got tired of all the junk in the street and went into the street to move some he was shot and killed by a sniper in the building overlooking the intersection ok fine the national guard were called in to restore order when the person went out to see what the situation was like the first guardsman he was shot and killed by a sniper from the building when the national guard went into the building to look for the sniper who had just shot two people in the street social media you tube twitter everybody else carried the images saying that the venezuelan government was were pris were pressing students who were peacefully demonstrating it shows national guard troops running into the building where someone has fired shots and killed two people in the street outside the building if you only see the image that was sent virally worldwide looks like a pretty bad situation if you see the whole picture which happened t hursday were in caracas and the next day on friday every newspaper in caracas carried the story and three of the opposition mayors of caracas that has five boroughs like new york city the three opposition mayor said this must end we disassociate ourselves from this wing of the opposition we don't like the government we're opposed to the government but this must end so at the moment and this is difficult for venezuelans some forty people have died as a result of these situations at least twenty have died at the barricades themselves all these are under investigation some of been reported to the venezuelan government to the office of the person who is responsible for receiving those complaints some forty four complaints against national guard troops have been received by her office we met with her for three hours six national guard have been killed in the course of restoring order some twelve opposition people have been shot in those barricades and at least a half dozen supporters of government have died as a result of those things it is impossible not to have tensions build when this sort of thing is happening and on both sides supporters of the government and opponents of the government have died on both sides and the government acknowledges this including their security forces have acted in a way that they are being held accountable for twenty one national guard are in custody at the moment and so the government is clear that if national guard shot people they're going to be held responsible for that but they're also clear that if other people shot people they'll be held responsible for it so there are seventy people still under arrest who've been part of the barricades in the six cities across the country this has resulted in very difficult circumstances hundreds of people have been wounded nearly two thousand been arrested one thousand eight hundred have been released after being held just for a day or so not charges brought against them but at the moment this event being described as a peaceful expression of their political rights is not what is happening in venezuela what's happening is a blockade which violates the law and then violence attendant to those things two people died as wire was strung across the roads where they had blockades and two people on motor scooters went by and were beheaded as that happened and people have died on all sides in this political struggle here's what is important i think to realize that if people are following this story in this country they believe this began on february twelfth with demonstrations  it actually began on january twenty third with a press conference in caracas where we'll pull lopez the leader of this phase of the opposition with a banner across the front of the podium that said last leda the exit said that we will create disruptions nationwide and will not stop until the present government resigns this is not spontaneous it didn't happen because people got out of control it didn't happen because people lost patience all that is happening now two months on but that's not how this started this started january twenty third when the opposition said we're going to do this until the present government legally elected last april resigns and so the events begin on february twelfth twelfth but they are in fact announced if you will january twenty third what's happening now is important because demonstrations by the opposition against chavez and against nicolas maduro except for the coup in two thousand  when there was violence and deaths on that day april eleventh two thousand and two demonstrations by the opposition have happened on a regular basis for the last fifteen years hundreds of thousands if not millions of people december seventh two thousand and seven i walked alongside one of the opposition marches i wanted to get a feel for it as the referendum was happening it felt like town day in some town and in new england families had their children in strollers families were walking together they all opposed president chavez but hundreds of thousands of people were walking safely and securely in a nonviolent peaceful assembly the next day i walked with five hundred thousand of these who also were walking much we were all stuck in one square standing looking at each other couldn't breathe but but my point is that in today's time i was with the opposition walking see what that felt like and then with the chevy's to seeing what that felt like those demonstrations have happened in venezuela consistently over fifteen years what's happening in the last two months is different from that is not a repression of free speech or free assembly it is restoring order with a movement a wing of a movement that is seeking to create disruption we all know i think that if we want to make someone look bad we need to provoke them into doing something that makes them look bad and there are ways to do that and i think that's what's happening now but i've had the experience of hundreds of thousands of people in the opposition you don't take your children and baby carriages to a demonstration if you think you're going to be shot and that was december of two thousand and seven and the been dozens and dozens and dozens of of manifestations like that over the last fifteen in the second thanks  and so so the idea that democratic forces are simply in peaceably does not i think jibe with the reality at the moment in venezuela of those forty people who died twenty died in the first two and a half weeks and now twenty have died in the last five weeks in general the level of contention and conflict has come down there are fewer actions but there are still serious disruptions in major cities particularly the western part of venezuela and in a handful of neighborhoods still in caracas but it is not fair or accurate or or true to say that what is being repressed is people who are peaceably assembly that is not the case democratic forces are peaceably assembling and they're being repressed by an undemocratic government the third party and then we'll have time for conversation the governor nicolas maduro elected with just under fifty one percent of the vote has been in office now for about a year was last april that he was elected he came into office obviously after  fourteen years of chavez being the democratically elected president after the death of travis there was a sense of inside venezuela for those who had been his supporters enormous loss but also a sense that what began because of the importance to the majority of people the kinds of things that i've observed over the last ten years the million free i surgeries over the last ten years in venezuela every person in the country now having access to medical care at no cost to them every young person in the country having access to education elementary secondary college university and graduate school without cost to them the ending of a literacy which unesco said they did in two thousand and four and gave them an award the meeting of the millennium old goals which every country agreed to in two thousand and five and we'd all be wrapped up by two thousand and fifteen and the only country in the world that still has met their goals in advance having poverty within their borders that was the goal every nation in the world set themselves to only venezuela has done that and so the things that i have seen there over the course of these ten years are the things that have led people to continue to elect in this case nicolas maduro was once a bus driver in caracas that's how he started his life some of the people in the opposition call him my boudreaux because they think it's somehow less than respectable that a man who drove a bus should be the president of the country similar to  ran for election the first time and and some people in the opposition said it's no problem only monkeys will vote for him or similar to the fact that when we met with the leader of one of the opposition groups in two thousand and four it's a very intelligent man i think it was educated us university like many and he spoke good english which made it easier for those of us who spanish is not great bu we had a discussion about freedom and democracy and human rights and it was a perfectly good conversation and then sort of off the record as we went down the elevator in this big hotel overlooking a golf course in carac gestures out of the clear glass elevator and says to see that golf course sit down because the president of venezuela is supposed to come to this golf course play around with people like me and ask me how he should run the country and he said i don't think we're going to see this president so the government that's in place now elected last april has responded to these disruptions i think from my point of view in a surprisingly measured way yes there are rubber bullets and water cannons and all the rest and yes people have died on both sides including some of the security forces themselves but given what could happen and has happened in other countries around the world that we could name it's i think still a rather measured response what has been happening is that the inspiration of the arab spring has been so inspiring that the people have been putting images on you tube and elsewhere that have nothing to do about as well so for example if you go now you can see people in chile police in chile clubbing chalayan demonstrators you can see police in argentina clubbing argentinian demonstrators you can see egyptian police clubbing egyptian demonstrators you can if you look good enough see a guy in a fur hat who i believe is in baylor reuss since you don't need for hats in caracas it's ninety degrees last week but that's all going by role it doesn't mean there's not violence inside the country but what's happening is distorted last week marco rubio in the senate made impassioned speech in favor of sanctions and he said i'm going to show you a photograph that is frightening and so he showed them a photograph which he said was there as well and soldiers snipers gunning down civilians in the streets of caracas that would be a frightening photo the he said it was taken by demonstrators on their cell phone cameras and it was taken at that moment p photographer has come forward now and said he took that picture a year ago and it's the regular group of people who stand on the roof of the mira floors palace that some of us have walked by and seen in caracas where they stand guard on the roof every day of the year twenty four hours a day that's the photo taken by the a p photographer who said that's what that photo shows not snipers in the present moment killing civilians in the streets of there has been a response they restored order but they've also done something which has received almost no attention and this is critical if i were here simply arguing about what constitutes restoring order it would be pretty boring afternoon the week we were in venezuela president maduro began what he called a dialogue for peace he brought to his office the wealthiest man in venezuela he owns the soft drink and beer company of venezuela he's the wealthiest single individual in the country he brought the president of the chamber of commerce who said to nicolas maduro mr president i've never called you that before it's good to see you he brought the papal nuncio representing the pope he brought representatives of every religious body in venezuela he brought two of the opposition governors he brought and refile co owners the governor of lara in western venezuela who ran and rekick her pretty face failed presidential campaign against nicolas maduro he came and they all came and talked about the importance of moving forward with a dialogue for peace and disassociating themselves from the violent elements that are in the street and then they made a suggestion to him they said how about tomorrow you invite business leaders to come and meet with you fine six hundred business leaders showed up on twenty four hours notice and then while they have the president's ear they made fifty nine recommendations about ways that he could change policies that would make them friendlier to business and on the spot he accepted fifty six of the fifty nine i invite you to look for coverage of that event anywhere in our mainstream news media i think the day he met with six hundred business people and he took ninety five percent of the recommendations i think what was broadcast here were more tires burning in one of the fanciest neighborhoods in caracas that dialogue for peace has continued and tuesday in two  days the twelve nations of the sewer will be in venezuela trying to act as mediators to continue to get the opposition and the government to be talking to one another the other thing which has happened internationally is that panama took to the oh yes the organization of american states a resolution condemning venezuela and asking the oas to intervene when they did that the discussion was held the vote was taken and the vote was twenty nine to three to congratulate the venezuelan government on initiating the dialogue for peace and called upon the opposition and the government to continue to talk to each other twenty nine votes for that three in opposition united states canada and panama and so what is happening internationally and particularly in the hemisphere is that there is also concern about what's happening in venezuela but not the kind of concern that we're hearing expressed in the in the senate and house of representatives concern about the fact that a democratically elected government is under siege by a very small number of people one anecdote and then i'll finish for now one anecdote about this government and the way they've responded we had a two hour meeting where bernardo alvarez who was the venezuelan ambassador to the united states for many years he's now living in caracas no longer the and bastard to the u and he said from his point of view he thought three things were true one the opposition was not going to stop to th opposition was not going to win and three everybody in venezuela was going to have to find a way to live together and then he gave an anecdote from his breakfast that morning he said i'm the former best of the us i live in a nice neighborhood my neighbor on each side are in the opposition one guy came out this morning as i'm having my coffee and said bernard we have to get these tires out of the street i can't get to my office i can't get to work people can't get to the hospital people get get to school we've got to get this over with the other guy came out he said well i'm having coffee and said we're going to keep these  and we're not going to give up he said like two mayberg in the opposition they came to me to settle their argument about how to proceed in the coming months and then as well he said i don't want to see them dead i want to find some way for us to work this through and he said most of the people even those who are opposed to the present government he thinks are willing to do that but the force that is continuing the disruptions continues to get international support and most i think important the senate bill which would put sanctions against certain venezuelan individuals and organizations also includes fifteen million dollars of new money to that opposition to the people who are in the streets with the barricades and so if that kind of support does come in the coming  months what has been difficult for the last two months will continue to distract them as well and some what they need to be doing healing as a society moving forward with their social programs and in a year in which there are no elections which is rare and venezuelan history consolidating what it is they're doing and to do that in a way that outside forces are not complicating their reality and so the narrative democratic forces peacefully assembling being repressed by a terrible government in my experience there and since all three of those things are not true and by basing our policy on things that aren't true i think we're in danger of isolating ourselves even further and frankly winding up the wrong side of history once again that is not good news i think for those of us who live in this country it's not something i look forward to seeing but i think unless a fuller picture is presented to the american people in the next few weeks and months we're in danger of of making enormous mistakes in terms of the present situation thank you for listening i'd try to answer questions now and if i don't i don't have an answer to that but thank you for being here ye think your question in particular the first question is very important because the role of the united states over the last fifteen years clearly from venezuela's point of view has been shall we say problematic the other thing is that when when latin americans in any country talk about the role of the united states over the last two hundred years they speak from personal  historical experience when someone in the united states hear someone say well the united states is trying to intervene and ruin our economy frequently i think people here sort of dismiss that as as propaganda the two hundred year history of u s relationships with latin america is unfortunately not so easily dismissed and so one venezuelans talk about that somebody said to me once  you know the reason why the united states has never experienced a coup d'etat and the answer is there's no us embassy in washington that is not simply a handful of people who hold that view given their histories and so the united states clearly was supportive of the coup against chavez in two thousand and two but there have been other things that have happened over the course of these fifteen years in terms of the oil industry in terms of funding the opposition in terms of persis a painting in really an international effort to isolate  venezuela that's happened under both the bush and the obama administration it happens under conservative republicans and moderate democrats there seems to be consensus at this point on that question so that it where clinton spent a good deal of time traveling around the subcontinent here trying to isolate venezuela the obama administration has sent more financial support to the opposition than the bush administration did so so these ongoing questions about the role the u s are real in the present moment the fact that john kerry said a couple of weeks ago nicolas maduro is terrorizing his own people and he must  if that is the understanding that the administration has that is a variance with reality if that's the tack they're taking to garner international support then it succeeds in doing that sounds terrible when you say that but i think it's not true and so at the moment the religious lation both in the senate and the house that would bring sanctions against  venezuela is the most serious effort i think since the coup of two thousand and two and also the disruptions inside venezuela are the most serious thing that's happened since the coup of two thousand and two i'm not saying it's a it's going to win i'm not saying it's going to succeed i'm not saying that there aren't different political and social forces now than there were twelve years ago but for them the moment seems to feel a little bit like that some days and so that's something the e very aware of i think what we will probably try to do if this legislation passes i think what will happen is they'll be sanctions brought to see the other thing is that one must pay attention if one has seen a couple of uprisings in the last few years and so all of a sudden venezuelans become tunisians because we only have one frame for understanding things or or they're egyptians or they must be like egyptians or not quite so sanguine they must be like ukraine and so there are ways in which we leap to analogies that aren't called for justified it's a way of understanding things quickly and then we can move on but it's not helpful either for us or for them and so nobody's talking about blocking the fifteen percent of our oil that comes from venezuela we need that venezuela is sitting on the largest oil reserves of any country in the world it makes saudi arabia's look like a child swimming pool in the backyard venezuela is the richest country in the world when it comes to oil and so nobody's talking about blocking that what they are talking about is targeting individuals russia the ukraine and that the sanctions would be applied in that way but much more troubling to me personally is the fifteen million dollars in assistance in this calendar year to the forces that are currently literally holding down the fort at various intersections in venezuela and so that is that's that's a very difficult situation your other question there have been certainly venezuela one of the things i find when i go there is good there gandhi once said he feels sorry for people who are going to create a system so perfect that no one will have to be good and so this corruption this crime that yes oh yes absolutely  and venezuelans i trust as venezuelans can decide what's best for their own country the word which has struck me endlessly over the last ten years is dignity dignity because i've been in other places in latin america and other places around the world where where people have been treated like pack animals for centuries  ns at least the ones i've met and dignity and it is awesome when that woman says three little girls in a town of five hundred are going to medical school for free to become doctors will we're nice people will go now it's nice isn't it that's really nice it's not nice not in a poor world not a world where most people are poor or three little girls in the town of five hundred getting a medical education for free is nice and must be some other eyes if we could come up with for that about just who or or dignified or sovereign that's another word that comes up a lot in talking with venezuelans so are there mistakes with the treatment of indigenous populations of course are there efforts to do that better absolutely the whole afro venezuelan community has been advocating for years about different ways of looking at that are they serious about addressing those questions i actually think they are in a takes time and every moment that spent dealing with the kind of things that are happening at barricades in caracas right now takes away from anyone giving the actual attention they should be giving to those kinds of questions so thank you for that question yes please nears i think we here are the problems that we see as the u s we met with the u s embassy when we were there for example two very nice people and we asked them what they thought about the present situation in terms of the their neighborhood is actually a literally above the fray when we talk about something that's above the fray that's usually a metaphor that i've never been in a place as high as the u s embassy above caracas as that embassy except for the top amount which is you know the top we asked them what they think of this situation they of course talked about human rights costs talked about the violation of human rights and freedom of assembly the young woman we met with is the one who issues the report on behalf of the state department every year on their human rights evaluation of that as well so but her basic format of the basic approach she took was this she said we are trying to bring universal values to a society that doesn't understand such  things and so i think part of what we're trying to work against is the utilization of the national resource of oil to benefit the majority of people in venezuela and also to be utilized by venezuela as a way of collaborating with of the nations in south america and in the caribbean what has happened in the course of the last fifteen years in south america is  all the two countries now have left of center governments that has happened almost without anyone noticing people just sort of walk up and whoa what happened in those thirteen countries whoa what happened was that first venezuela  staked out the terrain and they had a president who not just was willing to engage in feisty interactions but actually thrived on it he enjoyed a good fight i think and it meant that he was able to absorb the punches while ecuador found its own way bolivia found its own way or of why found its own way brazil found its own way argentina found its own way nicaragua found its own way el salvador found its own way no one was a xerox of anybody else but in fact it opened up political space that the rest of the hemisphere has taken advantage of now in a way that is in their interests as a poor majority and so i think that is also something we are working against and secondly and thirdly it is this question of sovereignty how many pictures did we see of chavez meeting with fidel castro well they liked each other but how many pictures do we see if you go chavez meeting with the pope none have we seen the two visits that maduro has already made to the pope since last april probably not there is a sense in which the sovereignty and the independence of venezuela is also a serious threat it is no longer interested in asking our opinion about things asking permission raising its hand i go to the restroom can i talk to castro can i give something to haiti could you give me permission for that because in fact when the earthquake happened in haiti the very first country to send in supplies and people and and aid the next day was venezuela and so i think there are both domestic and international reasons that have led to this confluence of forces  within the country and then also unfortunately in our own country as well and i think that that's that's continuing and has continued despite the fact that i think people who are imagining that the death  chavez might take all the air out of the souffle and maybe things would would change or fall apart and so in the first twelve months when they didn't fall apart i think what has happened now quite consciously in the opposition is to up the ante and so that's that's the period we're in right now i'm not going there because it's of use to me i'm going to venezuela because after a fair amount of work in the church outside the church in solidarity with people near and far over the last forty years or more that it is with all of its challenges it's the single most hopeful and the single most inspiring zip code that i've ever been in i've been lots of places and this is a perfectly nice zip code they're nice people and whatever zip code you're from but it's the single most inspiring and hopeful that's different from perfect it's different from flawless it's different from i'll defend them every single moment it's different from any of that it is to say that i actually believe that when they say they're trying to take the natural resources of their country redistribute wealth and try to benefit the majority of people that it's actually happen