religion would be helpful to me if you concentrate on the california nellie presentation because that seems to me to be the one of the pieces in pieces here as to which question transaction which both sides do to be considered paid with respect to the no lead clause there is no procreation here from the city there's no payment from any public phoned in there was no grant exists on the property was built by boy scouts the meeting rooms that are used by members of the community all of the campgrounds the swimming pool that's used extensively by community groups and the one point seven million dollars within improvements are to be worked out with  includes resurfacing now the parking lot providing a gate at the front to increase the safety for youths who camp in the campground if they can understand where the meeting rooms and all built anything in their record that suggests that they could get what i have a piece of property that size in san diego with these improvements on it from one point seven million dollars the only examples are these kinds of properties you don't know because there aren't other kinds of properties with these kinds of and i have i guess with the same question has at the california supreme court or have the california appellate court said whether it means that whether it means a second in the dictionary therefore not sectarian like the town would like the koran like the teachings of confucius in contrast the california court of appeal prohibited the use of public funds in restoring distort missions because the roman catholic constitution begins by thanking almighty god for the freedoms that he's provided the citizenry for me and none of those i would think would be considered unconstitutional certainly the constitution should be considered  i was trying to determine whether there was more there is incidental benefit to religion assuming path for purposes of my question that religion in general kept the sectarian as opposed those are entirely lacking in costs to anyone and are not supported by the leases these are the same activities that would be going on on this property if there were another lessee it's the same activity that would be going on in this property every time  cascades can't counsel before we lose your gutter come back to an issue the church wears on race with you and i want to find out about the record let's assume for purposes of my question that this is not away and dedicated to park you suppose it's just open land and zones i don't know if you have on zones land in california we have lots of it in alaska people can do anything there and there's a comparable  lake or whatever is nice about this land does the record establish what the acreage involved with lease for whether it would lease for more or less these people the boy scouts want to use it for recreation so the limitations reparations i don't levitation they care they want to go out in the so if they want to go outside public parks and branch of piece of property think of the use for their recreation cause  does that make it any different from the boy scouts itself the point isn't that go ahead in order to join boy scouts a boy has to promise to do is through the girl scouts i would think that when a girl scouts with no requirements from their own with your program or whatever get together and say grace or something like that and they're help with we once made a terrible mistake that the supreme court taught us a lesson on in a case called the new quests the arizona nz for official english case because by the time it was adjudicated the woman was no longer working for the state of arizona and we overlooked mootness sort of avoided movements in a way that the supreme court disapproved of now i look at the complaint here older in the two years so i'm assuming that that was just a scrivener's error that means that the boys are now almost eighteen and over a century no longer qualified in one case and won't be qualified by the time of mandated issues and the other case to be a boy scouts so why isn't it moot your honor first you are correct in your assumption might my understanding is that one of the two boys at least is under the age of eighteen still moreover the that incidentally benefits religion the second problem i have is what is a ast saturday at the grocery i bought a bag of coffee for sixteen dollars it was an aid to me because the caffeine makes me lively and awake alert for this argument it was an aid to the grocery store because they got fifteen dollars that they wanted more than a bag of coffee i don't understand why this isn't the same section you want to first aid can be non financial builds a cabin but doesn't pay me any money i had him by getting a place to build this cabinet he aids me by building a cabin there i still don't understand decide if any voluntary exchange  benefits religion violates the agent benefit clause then i suppose that sam said wal mart have to prohibit churches and church affiliated institutions from buying groceries the exchange is not a hand slant market rate exchange and the question is exactly now and why isn't this one so i think it's just i don't want to know as if there's a requirement that you invest one point seven million dollars and the one point seven million like that as well and that is at the e r to seven to eight lines twenty five to twenty seven with the city acknowledge making a payment over fifty thousand dollars to the scouts to use for improvements of the scout buildings at their headquarters two cases young men's christian association or jewish community center there's obviously a religious element to the organization so this california statewide case let's the government  the no wait clause by putting in approach that kind of prohibition you can use this only for secular purposes but would the boy scouts their religious content to family is very different because they are not in a validly religious organization they don't use a religious name or symbol their religion is not a required part of their program so it appears that what's in religious thing but when it's just one of twenty one minute mention of scattered around the courtyard it really it doesn't seem to be an endorsement or you know it at all these things and say well you know they're really not they're really not endorsing religion it's just he just happened to be a religious organization is one of the people who is operating from city services two  the test in california state wide was whether it's going to buy a program within the schools for providing broad training is secular subjects and whether that truly was neutral with respect to religion  and not substantially supporting religious activities that would be permissible under the new week laws that's why are we i don't understand why we're focusing on what it'll be worth after the boy scouts go away i most of the public benefit here was having the boy scouts maintain this camp ground while they're there so that the whole general public can use a salute your honor if i got that wrong this is open to everybody while they're there and they do the work which is one of the reasons why i was pretty lean provide for a dollar a year for twenty five years because it recognizes that one it's almost impossible to determine what the market rate be and if they were understand the possibility here of using are at peace with when i used to rent space for my loft it's at when i first rented anybody could come to the landlord not from the money and if the landlord thought he was going to be a decent tenant could get the space but once i was in there the landlord would always come to me first and i always got a little bit of a deal because it was worth it for the landlord to have me think i was long sermon and take care of the place and not have turnover of tenants is there and i think most commercial landlords operate just the same way is there any provision with the city as a landlord so