the meeting of the policy intergovernmental affairs committee will come to order this is june first two thousand and sixteen and we're at nine o three a m i do not want to start any later at this time i have a number of members who are not present but i know will be district offices and see if they are available at this time don little on office dawn are you there ok thank you very much ladies we have twelve items today we have a very very lofty agenda and i would like to try to get through all of the charter or amendments as best as possible i understand they are members who want to bring forward amendments and or recognize them as we get to each and every amendment too big however if there is a charter amendment that needs relevant information or other items that would make a decision somewhat difficult i will not be afraid to defer that matter or that amendment to our next meeting i have a meeting set for june twenty seventh but we will be pulling for a special meeting in the not too distant future to try to complete the charter i mean means also i want to know that of the live china amendments today some of them have what we call overlapping concurrency and so with that at the end of the road to go around if there are any overlapping we will put them together and then bring it back to the committee for a final decision and how we could change the overlap so if you just to give an example and just upon the understand what the overlap might be right now we there's an overlap in that respect then i will bring back and ask you how would you like to handle this keep it separate or have dead maybe you want to make every director as far as disapproving i don't know that would be your call it that point members also we will be taking public testimony very shortly we will only take public testimony from agenda items if you have not signed up there's that this outside on the eighth floor lobby please sign up testimony will be limited to three minutes and three minutes only two and a half minutes the light will turn yellow and at three minutes the light will blink grid and i will ask you to conclude please state your name and need to discuss i will ask you to keep to the point of the subject matter that we're discussing so i don't want you going to another charter amendment and talking about that one where we're maybe on a you go to see i don't want that happening i want to keep it if anyone does show up and wants to testify please e mail us and we'd appreciate that mahalo ladies ok really brink where you start with our first justifiable beef one more thing please turn off all noise making devices before we get it last week on charter amendment proposals p ten  checked we live in a democratic society and we should be included in that we already have rules in place of all contributions are said to be done to be fair and ethical but taking it away is crossing the line of being wrong as a unit union representative i feel  government employees association strongly opposes the proposed charter amendment restricting county employees from political activities that p i a ten thirteen and we think there are serious constitutional issues first amendment issues that are involved in this proposed charter amendment and there are already restrictions on public employees in terms of how they can participate in the political process that are entirely appropriate county employees while on their own time should be able to express their personal opinions on campaign issues contribute to political campaigns and volunteer for campaigns  is wrong to treat molly county employees differently from other people simply because of where they work both state and county ethics laws prohibit public employees from campaigning on work time or using their position private benefit and even the hatch act which places a number of significant restrictions on federal employees political activities permits them to contribute to federal political campaigns and i guess the question is what legitimate public policy objective does this proposed charter amendment serve you know we don't believe it serves any legitimate public policy objective thank you and on that they'll vote for any question thank you any question for the test the chair some of these have have sat in committee for many many years but they they all deserve their day to be heard in today's that day is supposed to be for a talk about anyone specifically i want to talk about the charter the charter is our foundation found like the foundation of a house it should provide the fundamental building blocks for our government but it should not be full of specific details i also believe that as we amend the charter and we propose the public vote on these things we shouldn't burden them with more than i would say a maximum of five things for them to consider on the ballot when people walk in and they're about to vote they kind of know who what candidate they might want to vote on but when they get to that bottom of the ballot and there's fifteen different questions for them to consider and you're asking them to carefully consider the ramifications of our charter the fundamental building blocks of our of our government i really would encourage you to limit the number of things that we're asking the public to consider without fully you know  publicizing these things ahead of time i don't think that we should abolish the cost of government commission i've been watching their work and i think they're doing some very good work three of the items deal with lawyers and with all due deference to the lawyers in this room having more than one lawyer on a particular body or in a room rarely leads to a more productive meeting or a better result oftentimes it leads to getting nothing done but having said that lawyers are interpreting law law is made by you guys you're the one and only body that makes law in maui county i want to come in on the planning commission i attend most of the planning commission hearings and i'm not sure that most people understand the role of the planning commission i'm not sure that some of the members in here understand the role of the planning commission the planning commission reviews applications for conformance to law the law that's established in this room the planning commission conducts public hearings to hear from the general public and be able to make a recommendation based on that what the planning commission shouldn't be is overtly political or biased as what's proposed in one of the proposals today would be the mr hopper last month gave the planning commission an excellent overview of what their role is and what the bounds of their roles are and i would encourage everyone to watch that and understand exactly what it is planning commission is supposed to be doing but they shouldn't be advocating a particular position one way or the other irregardless irrespective of their own personal feelings they should be reflecting the public and the and the public testimony they get and the and the feelings that they hear they're not supposed to be considering things that they learned on their own investigation outside of the planning commission and if experts need to be brought in to train them well that's fine but the training that they receive needs to be just just that you know here's what here's what your role is and they should be as unbiased as any jury i'll leave it at that i do believe one more thing that as as  already stated we don't want to take away anyone's civil rights and and he ones personal ability to lobby on their own behalf or support the candidate of their choice irrespective of what their create a bias on the commission and commissions i want to emphasize that we have three planning commissions and i don't know maybe it would be a difficult problem finding a wind specialist on molokai that might be a problem on i basically what this would do by adding this layer biased item twelve we've actually done this before we've actually had to attorneys on the board of ethics and it was a disaster  wholeheartedly agree with the unions that this is the it's the right of citizens to be able to influence government and so on they're not doing it on the job and they should be able to do it preserving we have that with aces running through our process now we have seven layers of land use approval and that's why we're choking and not produce the housing we need we need fourteen hundred houses the year we're producing two hundred we other questions for the test the fire scene and thank you are there any other testifiers in the chamber at this time no chair and i will check our district offices one more time just to be sure they meet do you  when you turn off a little technical difficulties however what i'm going to do is take each other amendment on its own basis and when this is completed if any of the amendments are overlapping i would then bring them together and then discuss the matter how we would like to resolve overlapping amendments also if there is any amendment which needs further information or needs any other expertise in this respect i will not hesitate to defer it and then bring it back at the next meeting i'm looking to have a special meeting at the middle part of this month and we also have another meeting scheduled on june twenty seventh but i mean dissipating something else coming up for that meeting and that meeting only so i want to move along as expediently as possible with the same premise that i want everyone to get a chance to fan their concerns also we have a number of them is being brought up by different compliment ber's and so i will allow those amendments to come up as we hit each individual so with that being said i there any questions for me i start ok i'm going to get started first one first item today is is actually of an appointment to the  water supply as you well know we had a resignation of any and we wish your a speedy recovery and so the committee is in receipt of county communication dated may sixth two thousand and sixteen from the acting mayor trans reigning it proposed resolution in title relating to the appointment of and i hope i get this right if i don't you can correct me resubmitted but generally my background i have a master's in environmental management and i've worked in the solar industry and maui for the past six years along with working in the wastewater industry  don't know if you have any questions thank you and i want to before i allow questions from the members all  asking mr mike molina to give an opening statement mr million my apologies chairman of policies necessary let me just for first state that myself and many others appreciate all of the hard work you will be you in the coming members will be putting into this agenda today eleven charter amendments quite a lot of work so in a best of luck to you all in dealing with these many many issues related to the charter amendments now as it relates to mr he has a mass possesses a master's degree in environmental management and also has work experience with white pacific solar and model water so he does have already some general knowledge of water and water systems and we're certainly very pleased that he certainly made himself available to attend the monthly water meetings and he did assure us that and this fine i would open the floor for testimony but i would like to ask you one question before i al the members to what is your present occupation additionally i currently contract for a while pacific between what you're doing and what you would be doing as serving on the board of water supply and i ask that you know not to be offensive but really to understand that are you clear on the duties between what the water department i mean the board of water supply does and your occupation what do you do for them i volunteered their location over the past four years a few times on a couple of events that they organized and went down ok all right thank you thank you and the other questions for th finally be nominated you have great qualifications and i think you'll be a wonderful member of the board water supply but i do have a question for you and i brought this up before i'm not picking on you but it's something that maybe by others at the kitchens for commissioners there you thank you chair and thank you for their willingness to volunteer on the board after have you been able to view our budgeting process and how the water department is you know in relation to the water department and but they come here to get to ask of us and any thoughts comments about process frankly i think i have a lot to learn in terms of the budgeting process and how that's a quick question i wanted to talk to you about you know i'm trying very hard i'm fairly new at being the chair of the water resources committee for the council and i'm trying very hard to involve the board of what is the play more because you are being an active board really helps me a lot in working with the water resources committee of the council because many times when we put an item before the water committee they will often ask me how does the water board feel about this and i think it's important because even though you are advisory according to the charter it's part of your duties to advise all of us and so i i want you to know that even though this is an advisory committee that i for one am looking very hard for your participation and direction and are you going to be comfortable in doing that you know we are going to be very shortly be looking again at the water availability bill and i certainly would welcome you know a lot of help from the board of water supply and i'm wondering if you're comfortable and realize that that's something that i'm looking for i understand that position i think it's important for us to do our due diligence and be able to advise you when you need and i think that takes work on my part and in our part as well so i definitely think that that's something we should and can count on thank you very much i look forward to it you know it's not i'm not a techie kind of person i don't have the technical background in this weather area i have a lot of experience having lived up country all my life but i do welcome you know your you know and i look forward to receiving it so please welcome an active is there any further discussion on the nominee for the board of water supply scene and i would like to give my recommendation recommendation but you would like to entertain a motion to adopt a proposed resolution entitled relating all those if in the signify by saying i i oppose let the record show nine i know knows unanimous thank you very much and good luck to you ok moving right along communication fourteen dash three one three from vice chair former vice chair robert carroll just reading a proposed resolution entitled proposing an amendment to revise the charter of the county of m elaborate more on what mr carroll was talking about you know in any any time you have multiple parties that are represented by one council or council or attorney they have the is a difference of opinion or different issues that come up well each the husband and the wife both have the power to terminate individually the that attorney even though that attorney has obligations and duties to both in terms of confidentiality and any time that the there is communication between the two couples that attorney must convey all or disclose all information to each one of them but there could be a breakdown sometimes and there is that ability for either one of them to terminate that attorney in this case we have corporation counsel who has always been hired at least appointed by the mayor and in the charter it's only the mayor that has the ability to terminate  there is a provision in the charter that says that upon the mayor's approved appointment the council has the ability to approve but after  that there is no more provision or authorization for the council to terminate and so this is actually will balance out the authorization or at least balance the the ability of the council to make sure that there there is no conflict of interests that could occur later down the road and if there is we have if so happened there is bias you know i'm not saying that there is currently but if there ever is the council has that ability to terminate because of the interests are conflict it so this is been i believe  a situation that can be rectified by just placing in the language that mr carroll has proposed in addition to what i will propose as an amendment to make sure that while i can i think what mr goodman says makes a lot of sense i'd like to hear from you know maybe it is a biased point of view but i would like to hear from own remove the corporation calls one of them or doesn't approve that resolution he says with the approval of them here so it will work both ways i'm not sure how we approve why and you are both of our employees both of our employee why shouldn't we be able to disapprove you know remove i would think with the america we'd have to work that out but i would think you're both of our employees we both had a hand in in proving your appointment now we should both have a chance to disapprove well before you get started mr couch just to be fair would you ask your first question i know mr coo she answered it but let's have mr long answer it from his capacity do you remember your first question the legality of it ye our responsibility as a corporation council as looted to he did sign off as to form and legality that is at the core of our responsibility it is not ours to develop our opinion on the policy consideration that's yours and the administration today and you decide what to press forward in terms of policy so i agree with mr khushi that the matter before you as you presented it is a policy consideration forming legality is something that we are pressed with in every circumstance every ordinance every result of what have you every contract we sign off on a form of legalit that's our job as to whether or not i can serve to employers so to speak again i see it as one employer the county of maui there are differences of opinion as to policy considerations but it's not ours to develop an opinion on whether or not the policy pressed by the administration or by the legislative body one should prevail over the other we look at the four corners of whatever you present to us and we determine whether or not it is constitutional whether or not there's a conflict with state law and whether or not there's any conflict with any of our ordinances that's what we look for and does the language flow should you be able to decide when to terminate us i offer to you this the mayor appoints us appoints me you confirm or not the mayor cannot remove be unless you confirm that removal or not so for all intents and purposes if the mayor decided tomorrow that he did not want my service he could not remove me unless you approved that's that's the charter process so in as much as in my opinion you believe the mayor appoints and removes he can't do it unless you say so even if i gave an opinion that he disliked which happens frequently he cannot remove me because he needs your your full support so with that it's not the same as retaining an attorney in private practice this is government practice and is the rules of professional responsibility are directly on point that allow government attorneys to represent a governmental body within the same office without crossing over into those conflicts if in way and internally we believe that there's an item that needs to be sheared protected from one branch of government to the other we have an internal process between mr pushy and i that we've developed to protect those interests he will supervise one group and i will supervise the other there's no overlap because every attorney in my office has a license to practice law that is in jeopardy every time we run the risk of crossing over the rules of professional responsibility there is more at stake for every deputy attorney than any other private individual or any other employee the attorneys put their license on the lion and their ability to practice law every time we deal with your issues if you believe that there is a conflict and you have proof of it i offer you to report me and any of my deputies to the office of disciplinary counsel that protects you and the general public from attorneys who practice law and who violate their rules of professional responsibility i am governed by that it's an old that i took it's a license that i work for and a license that every deputy and every attorney who maintains that license has to operate by law rules so it's a serious issue i take it seriously i believe everyone in my office takes it extremely seriously we do not compromise our professional responsibility because of politics and because a policy we are i think a very professional department and it's the biggest law firm in my view in the county of maui and that's the way we operate so anything else so there needs to be amended thank you so it's ok you know and again i said like i said earlier when i started if i was to find what i call a substantial need to  look at changing and or coming back to the particular item i would defer the matter i would leave in light of what you've just brought up we should be very low and what needs to be change i am going to is asked to defer this matter and because i really feel like we need to make sure that we have all these concurrency done properly and i don't want to get to the end they try to try to figure this out again so with no object like to me for additional matter mr is yes real quick i understand you wanted to do further the matter but i think it if we can if it comes out that people say ok maybe this isn't a good idea that we don't have to items are going to be concurrent with that change so i mean excuse me if if you you know it sounds like cumbersome but it is i want to make sure i get it right i mean i know you have an amendment to this but how does that amendment fit with that also so  that's why i would like to defer this man to sort of asking we can get it right bring also that a portion back up and make sure everything is in lying so when we do decide on it it's done correctly so that's my my recommendation to and we still can't get to it so that's my my rationale i would like to make sure when i bring something out it's brought out correctly and this is something that i think is major and in the fruits of that you're ok thank you and i and i appreciate that and i appreciate everybody's opinion we've changed an ordinance and subsequently we would have to change a different ordinance that relates to lease and charter it's not to the charter that live is quite similar i don't think the language what of the section that mr velo had indicated is that difficult to and that is just a few of us frankly i would like to have an opportunity to respond to watt mr wong comments that apparently this item has been deferred for more than ten years plus you can look at the record that every council is had this issue percentage but yet it keeps on being deferred so if you would like to defer it that's fine with me thank you that is my recommendation to defer any objections ok moving right along whom it to whom it is advisory resolution fourteen their seventy crashed on first reading on june twenty two thousand and fourteen at the council meeting at the july eighth two thousand and fourteen number two eliminating duplicate being an overlapping of service is a pivot ease and functions we now have an office of the auditor is required by the people for me this is an area that for as a resource your relations with the casa government commission we've had testimony i believe this this last week regarding your relations are the with the cost of government seems to be on track and if it sounded as though they come to you initially to discuss certain items that they would like to investigate just wanted to inquire if that's correct remember goodman maybe i can kind of give you a real brief history of my relationship with the cost of a commission ok when i was first appointed there was some disagreement with the cost of government commission as to their role and the role of the county on a tear at that point in time i believe the commission thought that they would have some control of the county auditor the commissioners changed they no longer seek to take control over direct the office of the county auditor so that relationship has improved the new commission works independently from my office the do not  directly affect my operations other than i ministry will be support them without a ministry officer that attends their meeting we have a relationship where the ministry of officer keeps me abreast of the issues that the commission is facing and most recently when they investigate and i aereo i have had one commission member that contacted me directly recording are you looking at this do you have any concerns with them looking at it but for the most part just to be clear the temple work that we do are is somewhat a little different the commission in the past and current tend to focus on forward looking projects good example was the county manager and some of those things are generally more forward looking because it really hasn't happened yet so they're comparing something that could be the office of the county auditor conducts posts audit's in other words we look at the past to determine what we're coming as we can make recording efficiencies in the future  and they do not affect my operations we do somewhat keep in touch because like i said my ministry to office served as a meeting so i'm aware of more or less what they're looking at i do not the proposed charter change is that i'm a little concerned about the effect of the charter change in terms of my ability to comply with generally aseptic government auditing standards or y and participates within the committee so the closer relationship i have with the corsa government committee may jeopardize my compliance to you know of standards because of independence  so we present and the studies that they present are quite different in terms of school and depth and you know we have other requirements like c p e and things like that that wouldn't be able to impose on the cost of government commission members i mean that's basically what it is you know so just to follow up there's been some of the members have spoken about the costs of government being more of supplemental and if we were to i guess actually put in the charter of their duties or their investigative to these would be you know if they had assignments or they were thinking as a commission on certain projects or investigative issues that they wanted to pursue if they would have if he were to go to you for approval would that conflict and in your i guess would that be in conflict with your yellow book standards so this would be i guess in a way  avoid duplicate assignments and more solidifying this supplemental type purpose of the costs of government so by your approval i mean they would you know they basically would have some type of an assignment that they would think about together i mean as a commission and go to you and get approval to pursue that but that then  being compliant with generally accepted government audit standards it does go into the green area a little bit more because in a way i would have some direct control over  n takes away the commissions palmers yeah that's correct but i and i and i'm not sure what happens is because the way it is is if i if i say if i direct them to do a too and that's what it would do it was those those powers that they have to investigate to see what is in sections one two three and four those  only they would only have those powers upon approval from the auditor and so any type anytime that they wanted to do an investigation or they wanted to  a certain to utilize those powers they would have to get your approval first before implementing their i guess commission assignment that they have formulated on their own so it's kind of like a checks and balances and that's what my proposal would be my amended to put out a proposal and because of the fact that there were some members on the floor that were talking about the cost of government being a supplemental short charter amendments and initially have on the floor the motions and during discussion have this type of debate so that we can move on this is it's a little bit less formal as we're conducting it like a regular committee meeting you stated earlier that these are charter and madam and so i would believe we need more formality and discussing these amendments amendment on the other side on and mr white correct me saying there's no motion and so it becomes real difficult when you continuously do that and we've always had this way of bringing something up discussing it make a motion and then have furthe discussion which is really called productive if you know most most organizations i've ever been in business we do the motions and then you do all the discussion so i will at this point just point and then i'll make a formal motion to for this charter minutes so mr white go ahead thank you you know i think one of the benefits of not having a motion on the floor is that we have a we have the ability to speak more than two times right so i'd like to be comfortable you know these these are really important issues yes requires a lot of discussion and a lot of understanding on everybody's part so i wouldn't hesitate to rush into motions and and i on the previous item i was supportive of your deferral because that's going system with what we did last time you ok brought some of those back today yes so you know i'm i'm comfortable that we can defer and and bring back a clear clear document but i think it's important for us to have an open discussion and decide whether we we want to have a motion or we have from the auditor is if we were to leave them with the powers to investigate and and do the work that they've done in the past is it helpful for you to have the ability to  request for them to look into specific items that you were with would that be of help to possibly if there's an error a concern that matches the abilities and capabilities of the casa government commission but they also disadvantages in that if i direct the cost of government commission to study an area then they produced their study and i don't agree with the study i have no ability to change the direction or  how they conduct that study because although i can ask them to study an area i don't see a methodology a way for me to tell the commission oh i think you're going in the wrong direction  or if we just flat out just disagree with each other the fact that i directed it to it comes with some for me i guess some responsibility and i don't know hall i can control the have the benefits of knowledge of your local standards and things like that so it's a catch twenty two i can see some benefit but it can also see some some concerns especially in areas that maybe we don't agree under the current situation if we look at an area and i don't know gree and i think it's an area that is worked investigating a lot of things that i can go in and audit and act and it's very easy for me to complimentary in dear love relationship with you and they felt that you working very well together and now i'm hearing you say the same thing about them it seems that you have no reasonable relation ship where you can talk about things that they want to do and probably can come to agreement without a sneaking a change here one thing it comes to mind and this may be very far out but if you have to approve what they're going to do what are you going to do if they decide to investigate the auditors office and they could and i'm not going to ask you to answer that question i just posed i know i know what you know what it was to think about that and it thank you and i believe that has been something that has been brought up before and i think we truly understand that but i believe mr gucci and all his discussion is really trying to keep the office of monetary as independent as flexible as possible and if i'm correct mr good you can correct me but i with the charter as is the cost of a commission could investigate investigate the auditor and go as an issue does right up by the initial commission when i got appointed my my only comment to them was that the ability what they were trying to do is evaluate so we had definitely a different opinion per se because it would all going into too much about it version has been signed by mr khushi and i miss trying to figure out kind of on the lines as misplaced the but reading the current charter and its here and what the intent i guess to begin what you have on the floor with the opinions it basically creates a place is the cost of government as a kitchen cabinet to the auditor's office and they would only be activated upon request wanted to but that's all up to them right now i've sat on the commission before and after the charter amendment i do see a change and i think the relationship between the commission and the auditor has vastly improved i understand the and the commission understands the desired independence of the auditor and this way doesn't really get involved in the commission meetings but he does right now well i kind of agree with mr walker but with chair why it is that if we discuss everything as much as we can we may not need a motion in my opinion i know you guys you know you guys do play these games jana change things i ok i'm just trying to get to the system well i think it's the way you want to run the meeting i think the more open discussion we have the better in my head then i'm going to ask the body ok nobody's you got he's ok all right you want everything to go as you want and for all the information amendments or whatever is that the way you want to handle me yes or no i don't understand the question the question is right now earlier when i brought up about him proposing his amendment on that very first subject when it you said there's no need to because there was no motion on the floor ok and now he wants to discuss amendments and i'm seeing to be concurrent consistent should we have a motion on the floor so we can add all discuss amendments and the same for the purpose of free flowing let us be able to discuss the amendments to mr to go to you talked about you know there was a change in the cost of government was that change because of the person now you know the people who are on the sitting on the commission or was that a change because of the way the charter currently reads in your opinion change to change occurred because the leadership and the makeup of the committee changed there was no change in the structure of ok so my then my comment and then next question would be all right so somebody else gets appointed later in his chair and just has a complete difference of opinion in the way that being run now you're going to be back in the same thing so would it be if we were to leave things the way they are or at least put it in with mr amendments that we don't know anything about yet if we if we put something in there too is there is there anything we can put in there to maintain that type of relationship yet even though it's different people at least we can say we can somehow put in there that hey this is you know you guys are cooperative in that kind of that's what the initial language says with the unheard amendment yet it kind of makes it more of a cooperative relationship kind of forced cooperative relationship between you guys as opposed to no matter who's in in the seat that that you guys pretty much have to cooperate with the way the languages will come that may come about let's move to college thanks very question i think the current language of the charter me report to the body that i'm augustine sole clearly i didn't see anything in the charter that allowed the corsa government commission to control the office so in regards to your question about is there any way we can put in i guess you could put in language to clarify it but for me it's pretty clear that they do not control this office so i am appointed by council  i have a six year term would provide me some independence from consul and the charter clearly says that the office of the auditor with a lot of jazz ability to investigate or audit counsel so there's a layer of independence in regards to the idea of who's auditing the auditor its causes responsibility because counsel pointed at their soul if you know if the auditor goes ro it will be the call so that has to act at that point in time i think that part is clear i guess what present what presents before you is a concern from my understanding policy issue how you folks want to handle this they want to have the auditors office be somewhat responsible for the direction of the course the government commission during i'll accept any ideas that you may have on all of these amendments ideas that you want to bring forward to understand what i've just said moving right along  thank you chair thank you mr to gucci for your explanation and i may be repeating again but i just need to four for myself in making my decision i hear what shell be advisory so that it's looking at removing but the commission shell provide advice to the and out part is removed the commission shall only upon the auditors request in other words provide some sort of advice but if i understood you correctly for you to step in as the arbiter and say to the cost of government this is what i would like it's looking to is that what i'm hearing you say you know that's kind of in conflict with g r except that government accounting standards for you to go to a group of volunteers and  give them so called advice as to what you want them to do investigate or some sort of report or its findings i'm not sure if i'm making that clear enough in and asking my question  members let me put it this way i've been to seven as we will be coming up in the next couple years for what is called peer review one of the reasons why party entity would come in and take a look at the audits we've done whether we've done them up to standards in preparation that went to the seminar recently the seminar indicated that when the to leave view the work of the cost of government commission at this point the more independent they are from me the better off i think because i don't want to be responsible for their work because clearly by the government auditing standards and i'm going to so it's kind of a new territory where you have these two agencies looking have having the same mission but approaching it in two different ways so i don't know if i had said your question really anything else i would like to know in regards to mr to comments where if the other counties to have an audit also have cost of government commission and maybe then we would have to take into consideration is it necessary to have this commission that's just my services when you read that child up and you see what the cost of government is asked to do and let us see what is the auditors test to do the same to me so should we let the record show nine i normal's the motion he's filed i mean the resolution is filed at this time we're going to take our ten minute morning break can i please endeavor and ask you guys to please be back in your change meaning a proposed resolution proposing an amendment to revise the charter of the county of nine hundred eighty three as amended relating to the code of ethics the purpose of the proposed resolution is to place on the  general election ballot the question of whether one charter session and dash two should be a minute to require the board of back this to render advisory opinion after hearings and shall include the finding of the facts  facts or conclusion of law and recommendation and to a new section should be added to the chapter charter article ten code of ethics to prohibit elected or appointed officers o and otherwise participating in employee and in employment of of our relation except if their relation is unlisted eligible employees mr white you are the maker of this this provide more teeth to the board of ethics providing a few more options with respect to dealing with violations of they come across and basically it if it adds a section g to put on probation demote suspend or discharge any employer officer who is found by the board to have violated any provision of the code of ethics of the county as contained in this article so it's just those two items that i feel are are appropriate for us to add to the charter and and i'm this is actually been fashioned somewhat  and as we live in a world that seems to be relieving people of consequences my concern is that while we don't have many times when this would be implemented i think it's important for us to have some consequences in the charter if if it is found that somebody has has violated a section of the charter and and needs to be given some serious amendment to section tend t subsection two g s in george where the commission itself can get on its own put on probation demoed suspended discharge that you why do you have any comments to his concerns well i'm happy to take another look at it i hear his concerns but at the same time this is a policy decision for us and  the section ten dash two to see also is adjusted to say rendering advisor opinions after hearing which shall include findings of fact conclusions of law and recommendations so i believe that the g would be and would be following that type of an action so i think it's consistent with what mr khushi was concerned about but you know chair i'd be happy to have you defer this and take a more specific look at his concerns and come back to you i will i'll let others ask questions if you have specific questions and i will follow the recommendations  my son i support the deferral thank you ms crocker share as i also have some changes i wanted to make on this particular sentence in we'll just wait till my turn comes out but i mean were i saw it as i said earlier each amendment stands its own accord ok and so we'll take it up properly if it the end there was a crossover or there were conflicts then i would then address it at that ok as a former chair of the board of ethics for two years i have great  respect for this this chapter in the charter i just have a couple of questions and concerns my first one would be ten to two a  initiate received here inquire and investigate i don't know why we would add that i'm just curious as to what the intent was for that if if i might ask that question or well you  difference between investigation hearing if there's just reason for that ok i love to see that gives more teeth i have some concerns look it may not be a conflict of interests but just make sure that you know there could be an appearance of conflict of interest here too so i would like i mean i would think we need to keep that in there  added fair and equal treat treatment but we probably would need some definitions of some of this stuff because again these folks are private citizens volunteers and to take a look at that and have to decide what special consideration treatment or advantages or privilege we probably would need to define that a little but i understand the intent in some of this stuff is really good i just have questions on the others and concerns about others and you have made it known thank you very much i will try to address it  relating to the attorneys within the office of counsel services the the purpose of the proposed resolution is to place on the next general election ballot the question on whether the charter is sixteen three seven and eight dash two point three should be amended to allow the office of counsel service attorneys to serve as legal advisers to and legal representative representatives of the council and its members in addition to the department of corporation counsel attorneys and mr goodman was the one who made the proposal and i have also in the audience and i'd like to call up mr rogers with no objections  mr charity appreciate the opportunity to appear before the body again as i mentioned last time this is of course policy decision for the council we don't take positions on charter amendments but obviously it affects our office i understand your inquiry about the impact ceramic occasions we think we can work with this proposal or something similar we do have the model of the city and county of honolulu's o c s that's had a similar provision for about twenty five years and we regularly consult with their office on an issues of common interest i'm sure they'd be happy to it by unimplemented in this proposal if it does move forward we think we'd have to change  some of our training in some of the ways we operate but in general we don't think this would necessitate a change in staffing or structure of the office and some  of what we currently do would remain the same with just semantical changes as i mentioned last time our attorneys regularly produce documents that consist of legal research and analysis we could if a proposal like this went through go ahead and call those legal opinions it's our colleagues and how to yes do so it might give a little bit more weight or credibility to the work th county of one lewis or charter provisions which i believe you all have a copy i don't see a problem if if it's handled in that fashion right where you know  require a some own internal organizational structures and procedures but on a case by case basis i don't see a problem if you adopt the methodology o yes and to state that you know that that authority again is set to retain or employed by a vote of two thirds of the entire membership special cause or for any special matter presenting a real we can use our own currently employed counsel services attorneys instead of go out and hire the independent third party which we've done in the past so and that's the advantage right at this point unless we i think i think i missed the tail end of mr obama's remarks is a little bit away but you said basically we should have only one attorney for the county that that's what i thought and so this would take that away  so i would be supportive of the first change but the other two i would have questions if the other two if we got passage of the other two and it made it through the ballot and made it through the election would that change i know you you didn't think you kind of talked around it but would that actually change the workload some of these folks because i don't my my committee it would be one of the attorneys and  he's working very heavily you know with the planning committee work now to also be one of the attorneys that would advise be be legal advisors and representatives of the council  i would think i would pull him away from his current duties quite a bit in fact so i'm just curious of how that worked for would change thank  of hot legal issues we would assign those research and writing assignments to the attorney so they could get pulled away from  expand legal analysts or the services for for legal support thank you council member we don't see a need to expand our office if this were to go through we think we have existing capabilit s i can support something like this in a sense because i've had situation on the committee level that our legal people will not make decisions because we have cooperation council and yet it's sort of conflicting because i create missed a whole comma we have the corporation counsel to represent the county but at times committee i think we he's not here to give his rationale behind a bit i think we all know what the rationale was but i do not want to assume anything in that regard yeah so in this case i'm going to ask to move this to an end  calendar and that way we will have a you know hopefully he'll be back if not i may have to be for it but whatever but this would be fair to him and to all of us and i agree very very strongly because i was you know well yes and i did talk to a number of council members there and their system seems to work real real well and i think it could work well here and not create a whole another department and then structure  and again for special needs and is used in mr white on number of occasions it happens maybe once or twice a year at home at max so why don't we try to do it i think we try to make sure that when he does we have some methodology and i have to run out to buy a dated april twenty first two thousand and sixteen from the department of cooperation council change meaning a revised proposed resolution entitled proposing an amendment to due to the revised charter of the county of m colleagues a believe you know my position has been very consistent and very clear to me is a service i believe this is an improvement in the structure of our current governance i support any elected mayor or form of government i believe are people of my toured sophisticated educated and smart enough to make their decisions who they want as their tools that elected leaders stating that i believe that some of the concerns recently of management implementation of council policy that is given by the charter for the  to perform the people's benefit it is something that our federal government does our state government does even our sister counties have done it and consider do i believe this is the council's ability to review question and then make final determination whether to confirm an appointment of a director and then all of the mare to be responsible for and answered for th operational requirements after that this is it is made by the legislative branch i support this because i believe it is a clear separation of where councils policy shoot and not interfere with the let's call this meeting back to order after some consultation and knowing that on this friday's agenda of the council a the government's recommendations is going to be brought forward i will ask for  proposing amendment to the revised charter of the county of maui nine hundred eighty three as amended to change the name of the civil defense agency to the maui county emergency management management agency the purpose of the proposed resolution is to place on the next general election ballot question on where the charter sixteen eight as seven point two eight and sixteen point one should be a minute  i mean civil defense was bomb shelters and war and whatnot this is more more encompassing emergency management services around the county and that's what they they do more emergency management so it was that with her or her blessing that i asked to change this i think only one other county has several defense everybody else around the country as all emergency here merges the management services and so it should be fairly simple i'm ready to make a motion if you're ready to make a recommendation i would like to make work and when they should but i'll give everybody a chance or anybody who wants to say anything to it if not i'd like to make my hundred three as amended to change the name of civil defense agency to the mile week county image emergency management agency is to chair so moved so it was moved by mr i'm going to i'm going to take their recess for lunch no because they're the next couple items we're going to have to discuss more intently because of what was brought up by me screw fellow so i'm going to have to do some research council and the prosecuting authority and their deputies from eighty india election or defeat of any candidate for the county public office we have received not only verbal testimony but some written testimony because i did reach out to certain organizations and let me if i may enter in the record some of the responses i got and i will give you a copy of the responses i received receipt we did get from a camille limb from common cause she's was ok with ten ten but she sees ten thirteen definitely being challenged in court i have another one from barry okie from show pool of freedom of expression so i just wanted to make sure that that was entered in the record moving along mr obama since you were the proposer of the resolution go ahead chairman and first thank you for allowing also placed upon our audit in the charter specifically language to states except for exercising the right to vote neither the county article and if we've expanded it is nor any staff member of the author is prohibited from political campaign contributions and there was to keep arm's length integrity and confidence of the office of the audit there's a lot of times th political factors get involved with decisions from cooperation calls so besides the elected prosecutors and attorneys like to be island didn't hold a little does it i brought up this idea that maybe one way to deal with this so called political factor is then see if it's good for the auditor is it also applicable that we could have our county attorney's taken away from the political attorney i bring this up as a discussion chairman again i just find it interesting in the merits that it's ok for the auditor to be placed with this restriction and yet those that now have to give opinion on  and policy some summary of a say no we want that retained to political influence so i just bring it up as a point of i think healthy discussion right now since governance is chair i'm in support of this thing and there were some discussion about first amendment rights being a bridged but our attorneys found there's not much case law with some of our most cherished rights nonetheless the amendment is not absolute persons going into government service even at the local level must remember that in doing so they give up a portion of their personal sovereignty the balance of this mosque ways in favor of governmental entities which must remain as aloof as possible from political involvement and so it is here partisan politics partisan political activity restrictions on plaintiffs and other county employees is not too onerous a price to pay so it's basically saying that there are there is a level of responsibility that you take on when you enter public office that you do need to be make focused in your decisions and you and not being influenced by politics as much as it is focusing on just doing  specific job so that's the reason i support this and i think it's appropriate to take the politics out of as much of governance as we can even though it obviously is a big part of it because you know ideally this is a wonderful thing to have because you know it's nice if you can remove all the ticks from the decision making around here however realistically we can meet all of the laws we want but politics is politics and it will find its way it's the nature of the business we are involved in thank you and i would like to hear from mr bush if he has any comments i think it might be very helpful  this is coming from also i'm just trying to figure out who i mean we have so many laws out there and who's keeping track and making sure they're not broke in and making sure they're upheld because it's really again the integrity of that person and that's not a speeding ticket you know you get caught or sort of our short term rental thing going on it's a lot of other things we have a lot of lack of enforcement and what have you so i actually like it i just wonder how it will be upheld and basically it boils down to the person in those positions to be yes that personal integrity of that person to  themselves and i i do like it and if this can help take the politics that i know that's the name of our game but somehow if we can put some controls on it i think it's better but l total the total amendment was published in the newspaper and placed other places as well and i remember a house having a discussion about it but i don't recall so i can see for fact and i remember receiving three but unless you missed a from i believe the other jurisdiction auditor's that they had the same language in there too ok so i think that's where it came about ok and in eighty eight include in supplementing their independence don't look at the question all about you've got to look at the supplement that's published and believe it's given out at the polling place if asked so that's that's interesting  that we do things my concern would be i understand the concept but would that exclude some competent attorneys from you know if they say well that's the price i have to pay i'm not anything about stretched i don't think we're inclusive of staff so that that's where the imbalance is as well so that i'm on the fence on this one i lean towards not supporting him because of of some pretty competent people that that may happen thank you thank you mr valerie thank you chair you know i have to say  mentioned that bot who's going to enforce it what do we do to enforce it although there is a section in our charter that council shall by audience ordinance provide for the punished punishment of any violations but you know it is just a process that we have to do and i think the consider we are a bunch of political animals who wouldn't be  here whether it's running for console or trying to support a mayor or a candidate or whatever i don't know how you remove the political animals from their cage but i would like to i think it's good discussion i can see where this proposal is being considered and perhaps we also have to add elimination of campaign or campaign contributions because i i i don't know at this stage i wait to hear from mr khushi his opinions also i thank you technically this proposal presents a lot of first amendment issues i know the concern about independence and politics but yet you're taking away people's right to well the people who did place in those charter bishan for the audit were guardians that audit that individual person's right to participate in political activity i company structure of governance and others are exempt political for me i just want to help draw the line because for me there is a lie and there's not much agree there is a black and white light on where councils authority should end and not get into the part of governance that's not our role our rule this city policy appropriate the money accounting of the money spent that's our main my main responsibility not that they do any operations of the fair i want everyone to hear your response and then i will put this matter off until when we come back from lunch that's all right with the members are you ready so long thank you cheer on as quickly as i can i heard mr coo she's comments i agree with them agree with mr coo she's comments that it's a difficult question and it poses scenarios that i i in this role would not want to comment placed in  as it relates to the auditor and the board of ethics appointees and those issues although passed by a charter amendment have not been challenged the question is whether or not those would pass constitutional must in the event we're confronted with a challenge my ad syria is i don't know a survey of all similar laws across the nation you'll find that the prohibitions of involvement typically are limited to while the employee is within their course and scope of employment not in their private work these proposals reach into the private world and once we start creeping into that world we have child it is i assure you that the analysis of whether or not a deputy corp consul or a deputy prosecuting attorney will challenge this charge or amendment even if it's passed will put us in a very very difficult and precarious position my offer would be to have the discussion have an open discussion about the topic but to be aware that as mr coo she said the development of a nine hundred eighty three claim is present on the face of the language because you are directly impacted a constitutional right and in order to do that your government action has to meet the constitutional test and it is whether or not your proposed language is closely tailored to governmental function and it has to pass the strict scrutiny test of the constitution so why can you do it for the author well it passed an elective cycle but the auditor has and challenge that i can almost guarantee that if i had to discipline a deputy for participating in  l election cycle but terminations and or suspension i'm going to have to really think about doing that the other thing that comes to my mind is if it passes and let's go back to the last time i was here today to speak on that other matter and that is removal of the corporation council let's imagine these to pass my participation in a council race would be a violation and would be cause for removal so these two taken together is a form it's a formula to remove me from office as we speak but with that said i can assure you that there are other deputies notice in my office that would look at this as a direct challenge to their first a me still thank you but you know in terms of governmental entities like i said earlier primarily the limitations are during the course of employment as opposed to during private time  the one area that comes to mind and i did not have the opportunity to look up the judicial code of conduct but my understanding is state judges as there are appointed once appointed to the position and confirmed either as a district court judge by the supreme court justice or a circuit cord or appellate court judge once confirmed by the state senate  there is a my understanding is that there is a prohibition from the judges once confirmed in participation  of political events i'm not certain whether or not the prohibition extends to political or campaign contributions but i'm certainly aware from my involvement with several of the judges that they are very mindful of attending any event that may be considered political and in fact the choose to avoid it i am unaware whether or not any of the judges once appointed and confronted with that provision having challenged it at all that's the extent of my awareness volunteering to accept the limitations prior to employment and the individual is fully apprised and aware of potential dimmock patients if the job is accepted do you see this i would have to answer yes in the firm it is and i would offer that in every job there may be limitations for example a physician at  would willingly accept the non compete clause there are however limitations to non competing agreements typically it's a geographic location and the duration of time after separation  so there are employment circumstances where you surrender some component of what you may have otherwise once you accept that appointment put terms were by order likely part of the body that a plane did the audit would that be part of the body that will consider real point made or continuation of service extend beyond the life of the prospective term of any sitting member that may have appointed that individual that's understandable as a relates to the office of the corporation counsel in the office of the thank you chair and i said i support mr holcombe was a proposal on and do it earlier discussed or we were discussing the auditor's item and here we have the transmetal for the formation of the auditor's which includes the passage here except for exercise the right to vote neither the county auditor nor staff the office of the county auditor shall support advocate or aid in the election or defeat of any candidate for county public office and signed off on by corp council so the reason i support this is it is far as i know this is a this is part of the model charter for the i c m a and so this is something that other places have done and there's not much case law so it doesn't seem like it's been challenged i mentioned one one case law that we were able to find but for me this is this is a clean government kind of an issue is trying to take the politics out of operating the the government and for lack of a better or artful term unfortunately in some cases it becomes  i think what is perceived as a pay to play when you look at the amount of money contributed by the appointees and and this is what the supplies to the point t a has seen this as something that's very important to clean government and focus in on the operations rather than the politics so for me this is this is a policy matter and i support the direction because i think it's something that we should strongly consider and think about making make it possible for the public to make this decision so thank you bringing this forth to bring about neutrality or at least to hold up hold neutrality if the if he is the judiciary if the judges are held to a certain standard of neutrality i think that cooperation council as well as our head prosecutor should also have the same standards of neutrality or at least political neutrality and i  think it would this is a step in the right direction and i would support this thank you thank you very much you know  in my mind that you resolve on this one part in the fund but you know i can see where the possibilities lie with these positions the political ramifications of what these positions mean in this community like judges and others and yet on the other side where do we i'm not misspeak on that i'm going to stay on this subject matter i would see it at conception except what it but down deep i'm afraid that when it comes to the first rights i'm first amendment rights of freedom of speech and participation i cannot with a clear conscience support it but it will be your call and i will make the recommendation accordingly whenever this body still calls for it so prosecuting attorney i think pulling that out might make it a little bit more palatable but then like you said it's going to be a slippery slope i mean that's a that's a definitely political the corporation counsel and attorneys as was mentioned before by all of the attorneys in the room is you've got a code of conduct that you have to  maintain so which is a higher authority in my it's my understanding it's a higher authority than really that the council didn't county code or anything like that because that's their livelihood they can be disbarred right away if they break that code of conduct so i you know there's there's mention of politics in it there's definitely politics in the like i said in prosecuting attorney corporation counsel yeah there may be politics but it could be on both sides i mean it's just i think the the first amendment rights  or trump this situation yeah we talked about the auditor the auditor has to be independent we talked about the auditor being independent there is no other you know they have the yellow book but that is different from the actual independence between this body the administration and any any other form of government we choose to come up with so that is a special case this one is i'm  sure i could support this might be better supported if it if prosecuting attorney was out but in general i don't think i can support this any other discussion  mr white thank you you know after the testimony and discussion so far today i when we get to item thirteen  presented regarding all employees my initial focus on that was to just list appointees because i think appointees are very different from the remainder of the employees but let me just share with what the model charter the i c may states no city officer or city employee and you can exchange county for city obviously shall knowingly or willingly make solicit or receive any contribution to the campaign funds of any political party or committee to be used in an election or to campaign or to campaign funds to be used in support or opposition to any candidate for election to city office or city ballot issue further no city employee shall knowingly or willingly participate in any aspect of any political campaign on behalf of or behalf of or opposition to any candidate for city office the section shall not be construed to limit any person's right to exercise their right to express opinions or cast a vote nor shall be construed to prohibit any person from active participation in political campaigns at any other level of government so basically says you can you can do what you want in non city campaigns stake campaigns and and federal but this is pretty clear to me that if this is in the model charter for the i c m a why is why isn't there more case law if these have been challenged this indicates to me that we have a  holcombe has something that makes a lot of sense and it is supportable and i think there is a point at which if we feel that this is the right thing to do which by obviously do then we should let the people decide and if one of our employees wants to challenge it i think there's enough enough on our side to sustain that challenge so and  comfortable expanding mr hall camas proposal to include all appointees to be fair to all appointees and then file my later issue  white and less we're open in free with ideas right where open in free and ideas you've mentioned now that you would want to see that the term used in all appointed positions no matter what the capacity or not you know i'm open to because you know no i go back because we appoint all our cultural staff cultural services there's many positions appointed that i i would not see any means own way did they would be in flu seeing anybody now because that becomes a real issue for us all appointees and that's my question to you should be those that pay to play on key commissions planning variance police fire civil service key commissions that have for me how far do you do we want to carry this because it is a giant pandora box because then who is going to like the state now finally we financial disclosure is a lot of people w apply because they don't want to show their financials so university regents and other positions of authority and importance of all fall is not going to have some level of capacity from the general professional community to volunteer because of additional requirements i just bring this up that we should look at the gamut of the per hour of impact benefit or disadvantage for me the final determination chairman thank you was by so thank you very much chair and i apologize if this was asked what because i was a little late coming back but you know you can prove a hit the  appointed person from making that contribution but how far do we go with say for instance if i'm prohibited from giving money to a candidate there's nothing to stop sherman from giving money to a candidate he is his own person so how do we monitor that and i don't know how to answer that question but other than that well how the sprint spending commission handled it because you became one entity so they spend the commission has put so you need to you need to put that in otherwise just applies to you individually otherwise that's the problem with us is what how we determine family went when you get into my daughter in law is my  i'm sorry but i'm not in love with this idea oh no no and i again this is what the discussion is all about you know i'm just putting ideas across on the floor and the white and calm i have brought some valid concerns i am not disagreeing with that aspect but how far and where do we end and again the spending commission does have specific guidelines and respect and i can as far as immediate family immediate family wife children a and there's a whole different issue it's all there and i don't have it in front of me but i can tell you that my children can if my son still chooses he can donate to my campaign up to fifty thousand dollars it's in there in the law and i'm well aware of that and there's office and my wife can do so much and this is different but again that's the way to spring the commission has called taking care of this problem how do we take care of the problem here is another another situation but i'm just putting sentence and i think a lot of this is depends on integrity absolutely personal integrity and if it looks like a duck and smells like a duck and looks like a deal then that's a problem otherwise i just prosecutor and having that prohibition in dealing with politics only because i find their position in such authority is almost equal to the judges our state judges that they need we need provisions in there at least perception wise that says that these positions so behold at such a high level are immune from politics that do not and they do not have influential political ties within those those two positions number one to the head prosecutor that he has prosecution prosecutorial discretion which means even if it even if m p t a police officer arrests you the charges will not stick and move forward into the judiciary system unless the prosecutor charges that case so that's such a such a valuable and powerful position that it needs to have that protection of being the political biases or political influences so that's why i see the nexus between the prosecutor and the judges because the judges are prohibited in dealing with politics or influencing politics are corporation counsel that is just a pure perception thing i mean if you need you know the corporation counsel supposed to be the head legal adviser or representative of the county and it's very difficult to see or if there is a perception that they had prosecutors supporting a certain may air or certain council member or things like that it  has a different type of perception and that may skew the new child of that position so i really do favor or support what is before us this this charter amendment i would exclude the deputies because i don't feel that the deputies even though they are the arm of the the head prosecutor or the head corporation counsel i don't believe they're at that status level to able to impose those type of conditions on the deputies so that's where that's my position and i just wanted to state that for the record thank you know and thank to people that people can feel comfortable that these leaders will be held at a much higher standard like a judge then the everyday people you know so i mean not to say david a people don't have integrity i believe they have more in many cases but i think it's  much more palatable money and so i like your idea was to couch thank you mr chair normally when we put these when people submit amendments normally there's a problem i haven't seen any problem with our in the number of years i've been here here on the county in the county any problem with cork councils any problem with prosecuting attorneys now we have had questions on some of their decisions but everybody has those so i'm i'm i'm wondering where the problem is and what we're trying to fix i don't see any problem at this point by members of this body to look at situations prior to a problem you see that we react to problems i frame this since we are going to have some discussion on the future of governance that these are some of the areas that we should have some discussion prior to making a determination we're well aware of freddie's agenda and part of item that his agenda is is the discussion of governance for me this is part of the greater discussion so i can make for me the best decision i can on the consideration that will be to the friday's agenda i don't expect to make a decision on friday but i expect a good discussion from  chairman this is part of the areas that i think we should be talking about prior to making that final decision on that proposal so for me this is my due diligence part of my due diligence it's not something that i like a sit with that i shouldn't need to be pushed out of committee but i for it was important enough that this the membership of this council at least have the decades on governance in the seventies is the appropriate today as it was back then so i appreciate this opportunity thank you and thank you we still come and i think this is what this is all about you  know and all of the charter member that you and others have brought forth i promise that and i would let the public see and hear and let you decide what it should be brought forward or not so this was the whole process that i brought forward today that's why the hol a meeting with dad being said i would ask now what would your what would be the pleasure of this body should i defer this matter because again you still come a keeps repeating friday and governance and we know that's coming and i'm not sure exactly how that's going to pan out but you know i'm not i'm at liberty to go into any discussion in there because it's not part of the subject matter but it seems like this hesitation to make a decision because friday a decision is made otherwise all it goes to a comedian and a decision me differently then is this a political ball not i think this is where the dilemma is coming up constantly and you brought this up i think this is a second time that you brought this matter oh so i'm i'm asking you i want to proceed i want to bring forward what i think is important and i think this is the emergency management one was that was i wish we had seven a bill that would be ready but we don't so i'm asking you as a body because i i not here just to waste your and testimony from the public and going out to different districts and it wasn't an easy task so you know for us to just make a fast determination  in to try and have us address in regards to our county governance process so for me i appreciate the discussion and i think there needs to be more work into this instead of having to see what's out there on the mainland and i'm sure they have but good opportunities for us to do research but i think if we we start from home and straight to ours  going on a real quick question i don't really have an objection to it yet the question is can we be refreshed on what date we have to have all this done so it can get on the ballot it would be first rate first reading cast to be july correspondence dated april twenty seventh two thousand and sixteen from that's when we just did we want you want item ten ten prend nine which is i think item eight on your place on the next general election ballot the question whether that whether chapter sections six point two and a dash for going to should be  specifically i will i was proposing this charter and them it to allow the council to have the authority to approve the appointment of the director of finance steps in the shoes of the mayor the managing director is unable to fulfil that duty then it the position of acting mayor falls upon the finance director so that position also holds the position of managing all our finances within the county which is huge it's the revenue it's the it's the bills that need to be paid that position is very important so i believe that when and when the mayor does make an appointment for the finance director we as a council should have the ability to approve that person qualifications abilities and i believe this is a safeguard because of the position it holds two titles and acting mayor as well as the chief operating officer of finance for the entire county so that's my i guess statement or my position to advocate for this change in the charter i have no problem with the idea of any of the department directors including the director of finance being vetted before the council so we have an opportunity and the public has an opportunity to understand their resume and their qualifications and whatever i have not yet really decided personally where they're all of these directors or even this the finance director should be approved by the council so i'm open to listening to a little bit more to be convinced thank you overall the intent for council to kind of the appointments that's coming from from the mayor is is very i can be supportive of that because i can recall serving on different state advisory just advisory committees or commission or boards and though the governor appoints i still needed to go to a whole bunch of interrogation from the legislature or the body the policy makers so i don't see us being any different in trying to have this considered for purpose is to preserve perpetually celebrate research or study of the whole why how one culture or the hawaiian cultural resources or practices and two who is an officer of a domestic nonprofit corporation whose purpose is to promote the protection conservation preservation and store shift of environmental or natural resources a correspondence dated may twenty amended relating to the membership qualification of the planning commission the purpose of the revise proposed resolution is to place all of the next general election ballot question where the chapter sixteen eight dash eight point four should be a minute to one require one member of the commission to have a background on conservation of natural resources and a different  stapled and it's got a few pages in it and if you don't mind i know it is i want to be the tilde so we have hopefully all are questions thoughts maybe concerns just points to the charter and the section eight dash eight four in regards to planning commissions and the section outlines the powers and responsibilities and so if you go through that page and then number three is like about at the bottom portion of the appropriate punishment shell and number three it charges the planning commissions with review of proposal land use ordinances and amendments charter illustrates the tiny commit members to have a working knowledge i believe for native hawaiian aloft and the planning commission to have a member of each you can serve as a voice for the house and environmental type quite eloquently in her written testimony as she reflects back on her position on the land use commission and she strongly strongly believes that this requirement i'm suggesting would actually make the process faster and more efficient in reference to the point that a lot of times petitioners are intervenors as i notice a lot are they have to do  the they want to speak their piece so i feel that my recommendations have a purpose person or member with that type of oversight and that type of knowledge to bring to the decision making process with the tiny commissions so if we turn to page two members this is just relating to be ellen our board of land and national resources terms and qualifications of their members of their board and so i looked into what type of language of a utilize and how do what kind of credential is in criteria do they bring forth and they state have a background in conservation  and that one member of the b l in our have demonstrated expertise in the of hawaii in traditional customary practice so i thought that was quite a good point to highlight next page members page three and four both are just pointing towards our commission on water resources management c worm and there are lies as in so what they look its house that logo of university of hawaii on it and this is a memo that was sent to cheer white at one time in reference to the u h manila school of law which invites maui county council members and i believe quite a few of us have attended course and which includes education on public trust a public land trust traditional customary rights water and public trust doctrine and laws relating to again ms nakasone mentions in her written that they attended this and it was quite eyeopening members had mentioned and so for them and it was surprised at how much they truly didn't know and the these are three people who said this they were actually attorneys so it didn't lighten my and myself having been born or raised here is it really brings a different perspective and i think you'd be a wonderful perspective to this commission and the state actually governor eeg a signed act one six the nine into law on june thirtieth two thousand and fifteen which states training is provided through or grant money from rule of law which mentions that yes they do get the funding yes they will pay for training they will come here with ten or more members in attendance so it's something that  i feel doable and can help you know brought in and bring more education and i guess that perspective that i would like to see at the commission level pages seven and my background as to how this was created and the reasoning why and where i pretty much found the verbiage in order to insert here so chair with that if we would like some discussion or graduates but they have the confidence of our conference of our general community and i would prefer that we are a community to make those determinations about who should be speaking for us and whether or not the qualifications as we understand it is sufficiently represents our communities understanding and beliefs of what is our culture what is our submitting this result and what changes to it where you know i don't know why the officer of a domestic nonprofit corporation has to be in there i also like mister okama i come from from an island there's there's no question about what we try to protect with our traditional customary right s also what laws recognize and protect traditional customary rights in and all the practices that that we have so i support this but i also come back to who defines the practitioner who defines the culture resource a person i can have someone who does all the research in reading and can come back and tell me how that has all the archaeological and for us we depend  for that direction i support this if we can kind of not have to be so detailed with the college degree cetera or who is an officer of the domestic nonprofit corporation i think we can just that this more and probably digest it it was mentioned earlier hall having such requirements on the commission can slow down the process i think if we go back and constantly look what comes before us as to what shuts down the process is or are contested hearings we know we have gathering qualify and what qualifies you know the b l in our board has specifics college degree or work history sufficient to demonstrate appropriate knowledge  i think i can value one or the other and not just one particular and when it comes to our customary practices often time is the actual  going to for gathering rights and the fishing area and not necessarily comes from the textbook so i think often says how and we continue to chart our destiny land and our natural resources as we try to also support the economic interests of our constituents and our islands but adding to that too i think  our local culture branches off from this too often our local culture is also so often this islets themselves but i think with these kinds of opportunities that we have the clarification right now because i am feeling like the discussion is in reference to memo dated april twenty eighth and my final revised proposal is actually  final page of exhibit one and this is the new revised language that i'm hoping and looking to get support on because i'm feel like the language here is addressed and the reason why i did this revision at such a late date and that's why i couldn't get it through corporation council is because of this smaller our particular i knew the first my first proposal was going to be very demeaning and what crossed my mind was are we going have the same people or me a real select handful of people being able to fit that description and i didn't want that i knew it was going to be an issue in a smaller populated area such as illinois so this is why i have the new revised and i feel it's more it's broader general but yet keeps my intent untapped and the reason for wanting this type of membership on this commission so just to make sure chair ago thank you his chair and i agree with mr coo she did i think the plan department should be able to weigh in on this one my biggest concern would be finding you know qualified folks for it activist doesn't make them a practitioner you know qualified for this so i i would defer to the smaller islands folks to hear you know hear more of their comments this is a very of interesting amendment and i understand what member cochran is trying to propose here i gotta say that i really i really like this idea about people having to attend his workshop i had the opportunity to go and it was a saturday it was all day and i learned an awful lot i didn't realize that there was so much hole in law that  history that i really didn't understand and listening to the presenters was really into me you know i grew up in the area when know when history and not much about hawaiian issues or any of this was taught in school and it was very interesting i never learned the overthrow of the government or any of that stuff it was just not part of what we learned in history we learned about european history american history world history but didn't learn anything about how in history so it was very very good for me and i really enjoyed it now whether or not making it mandatory is a good legal thing because you know we make a lot of things mandatory for could bring them here and have them change maybe that would help but will it be good for the day it's in law school and that can be a problem having to send everybody off and on and on a particular saturday you know it's kind of difficult and there is a time limit here that says in the proposal you have to do it  been was what was it is it a year within a year of being appointed and you know if it doesn't hit on a regular day we could run into trouble but i do like the idea i think it's wonderful i learned an awful lot from going to be idea of finding people i don't think we have a problem i think we can find you know since the hawaiian renaissance i'm just amazed at how much knowledge is out there but of course it may be you know not as traditional and as member talks about you know people who grew up in it they are steeped in it that they learn from they're there to do in their family tradition they may not have that but a side is you know people that you know and are getting all this degrees in a way and studies and all of that i think we can find them but like i said i'm i'm leaning towards thinking this is a good idea but really not really devote thank you thank you m what we're pursuing tool to italy to or planning commission with there were a lot of questions and lot of challenges to came up because the members did not have a moving but i too feel that there are sometimes presentations made that are blatantly inappropriate and i think if the if the folks that are working on plans for development knew that they were going to have a higher level of expertise on the commission and possibly a little closer review of cultural items that they'd be a little bit more cognizant of what what they're presenting so i'm i'm supportive of it i too have some concerns about the college degree and some other parts of it but  but overall i'm i'm in favor of this kind of a move of the commission i think by having these type of i guess qualifications they could avoid political appointments because they actually do would have to know  about the culture and about environmental science and conservation they would have to have that knowledge as a qualification to be on the commission so i am in support of this  amendment and i do understand some of the limitations that the other members are speaking about and if those could be amended or changed to at least come to some kind of compromise then dilemma you know i think this education is great no i don't agree but for me i don't know why we were make that part of the requirement of the developers to understand our size fits all yet because our community is again very different very unique and while we appreciate every sr district and their uniqueness and being special we have our own unique challenges also and for me i need to have the ability to include as much of our community as possible then to find limitations of some requirement for the being education degree or not and limit the ability of my community to participate i'm looking at trying to expand the ability to participate so i would for anything and this needs to go forward more than likely i would ask that when i'd be exempt easy and some of the other concerns that are brought up and incorporated in maybe i may add additional version of what you've done i think we all agree the intent is i think educational have some closing comments so i took notes along the way as everyone's concerns are brought up so i'm first of all from ms the place it was and i was so happy everybody agrees with the educational school says that they just need ten people and that can be console our staffs i think it wouldn't take much to get garner ten bodies and they will come here fully fund it and it's for charge and they provide the the trying to lay out a larger different potential credentials that a person can be you know a land of natural resources person or a parks and rec person or public lands management person or a wildlife for water so if someone has some kind of expertise in that field then it's to the discretion of the planning director that that person demonstrates that expertise and then they can say you know nominate you to this commission as i don't look at them as approve mean or disapproving projects these developments that get vetted through the maui planning commission and so yes they see that but for me and i and i hear the voices of this community mean this type of person with these qualifications that we've been talking about on that particular these particular commissions that the planning commission so there is a place for serious see if there is a place of course  feeling like they don't have this type of representation and that's one of the main intent for me to push it forward and you know i'm going to of all but a by all means if i would like to be exempted actually approve or to rate they don't they don't know what their recommendation we're going to go on oprah they just then that's where you have a commission of the rest of the members that that may be part of you know a development or a real teacher or union whoever so all the voices are put but there so if there is a discrepancy i'm sure that person if they are in the cultural resource or expertise then there should be some kind of discussion one being advisory the other one is a decision maker yes this is specialist position or you you're talking about will be a member of the planning commission right sorry i'm sorry i  me thank you ok so i mean it is great to have all opinions and expertise on the table but in the final vote count it up to the planning commission is body to make that final this is so  intention of what miss cochran is trying to do by misplacing the qualifications within the charter but i also understand that over a period of time over years things may change so i think the better approach would be to add in language in the charter that would enable the qualifications to be enacted by ordinance somewhat i claim which like the commission the qualifications of the commissioners may may be enacted by ordinance or shall be enacted by ordinance therefore it enables us on the council to create ordinances and make those amendments much easier than having to go time and time again for a charter amendment i think that type of enabling language within the charter allow us to create qualifications via the ordinance just by saying the commission members of the commission qualifications shall be enacted by ordinance it might be easier instead of and as you know changing ordinances church is much easier to ensure you know charters or you could do it that way that way and invaded out through an ordinance amendment to the requirement which i can't seem to follow is the training requirement could also be to be done in the view an ordinance and that can be adjusted if funding is lapse at all that's so basic all you'd be asking for chair is t language to be included in the existing existing charter language the language would be commissioners members of the commission qualification shall be enacted by we talk a lot about the cultural position there which is a good healthy discussion what was the intent on the other are not going to start going anywhere until we find one or you mean the second position in  so that the next other member just to have a couple of members having to do with one type of expertise and then if the second member have been really honed in on you know substantial experience as a native point traditional or customary practitioner i mean doesn't have to have a college degree of sorts but just has some type of evidence of being and then they'll be yeah right we discussed three where we haven't question like there are membership requirements i guess which is being spelled out here it could be described within that or it was in there and this is the ballot will point this to this ordinance which be difficult to solidify a you know the appropriate qualifications and put it in the charter because years from now we could lose and when we when we want to change the qualifications it's going to be difficult to go back and get a charter amendment know i was proposing that we just put in enabling the language within their charter to allow the council to curry these qualifications via or to dance ok and so finally i yes do we have to go through to do it where you actually are i think the only necessary components that we need with specifics is the language to enable us to create ordinances and that's the only i mean plus a little bit covered ok i just feel like it and i understand we want to try and protect ourself and it's hard to change a charter with all this work the language but we all start to get the idea of the intent i just think simplifying it and just seen as as created in the ordinance by the city county council at that time in our charter is going to be so hard for the general public and community is too kind of graphs that is and what that means i i don't know but that's just my initial i understand i'm just trying to see what's going to work there for the broad just people in our community to understand and know what the intent is without this language and just point to we will create this language in this ordinance so so you agree or not and i don't know  qualifications of the by the commissioners themselves doesn't have anything to do with their powers of duties is just the maker over there of each commission so it may be questionable whether we can do it strictly than six seven eight months ago regarding the qualifications of the head prosecutor and requiring documentation to prove to be provided that was denied by corporat the form in legality and the rationale or the opinion that came back from that particular deputy stated that there was no enabling language within the charter that would allow  this ordinance to be created to add in more qualifications and so just to make it very clear and very smooth so that we don't have a problem later down the road and having a corporation council not sign off on an ordinance as to form illegality i would feel more comfortable if we had language within the charter that actually spells out we're  going to have the power to create an ordinance for disqualification so we wouldn't run into the same situation i did with the head prosecutor ordinance that was not signed off as to form an  wanted to make it very smoothing clear so that any other member that wanted to create something more than what is in the charter they can you know how so comes back in the charter and says oh ok i get it there's a council does have so we're not arguing that i think what we're trying to figure out is how to do it so that we won't have to go back every time we want to make a change we have to do a charter amendment that we could do it by ordinance and i think that it probably is much more efficient and  came in on part way through this so i'm i'm trying to gather what is going on that there is a proposed charter amendment for certain qualification of the commission first off i will i'll just comment within the charter there is only a couple of boards and commissions mentioned there's a man way planning commissions are no qualifications there when you start getting into well ok because residency requirements of course when you start getting into  county code you know our our department staffs are eight boards and commissions so when we go in into those things culture resources commission has some requirements i believe all by ordinance none of those are charter i am i would be has a tent to put something like this in the charter goes wrong you are going to take a huge amount of time and energy to go through the whole election process rather than floating as an ordinance and going so ordinance would be a lot more flexible to go ahead and do that rather than charter as a charter requirement and this will illustrate why ordinance is probably better anyway as a customary practices demonstrated by a b or c as below we often have a difficult time finding people to serve on our planning commissions well now  most of the people who work for have potential conflicts so that you're narrowing down a scope of potential candidates even further by putting these requirements on there this could actually be made in an ordinance it could be taken care of better but this is the scope the pool of which to take candidates right now is very small twenty five hundred people approximately we run into some of the same things not there's a lack of people there who like go traditional cultural practices but getting them to come forward to serve is another whole thing so sometimes we struggle to get people to come and want to serve if you narrow that scope down even more we may end up with commissions that are not filled if that's you know this would be a much better discussion to me this would be a much much better discussion as part of an ordinance than it would be as a charter amendment because in we could deal with these in consistencies and we can deal with these kinds of things rather than going voters decide on this without really knowing the ramifications of it and i mean we want to be fully represented all nine members we want molokai be fully represented has a larger pool but you know to choose from and of people who will volunteer but as a charter amendment i think we would find the consequences not very satisfying to anybody i think this would composition i think other than that i think one member most people are agreeing on yeah maybe we should have somebody with back on a conservation natural resources  and the other one demonstrate expertise in native wine traditional customary practices and then the qualifications of those two positions would be in ordinances that we're talking about are you talking about the whole thing saying disease well the way that it's done now if there are qualifications for board or commission members it's by ordinance it's placed in maui county code it's not in the charter  i'm i'm not saying whether i would like to change the current process or not i'm saying that if it if it's the county council's choice to place these requirements it's better as an ordinance down as a charter amendment as that quite answer that a little bit i know that i'm pretty sure that the public wor commission and a couple of the commissions actually require require certain disciplines disciplines that i'm not familiar with yeah look work one of which is a cultural commission that has  i'm going to make it five metres but i know you're not going come back in five minutes so we'll be back at three fifteen and if you're not we're going to get started with praying that we can and basically would i'm wondering if if we could look at that exhibit one and just go to number two and just say well and just take the first sentence and at the council reviews that person if they like him that's fine if they've feel they're not qualified or they need additional qualifications to counsel rejects them and i think we've had some really good commissions because we been discussing ok and then maybe if you would you know if you want to come back in be a part of that discussion at that point in time you want to welcome yes mr chairman if we get to perceive notice of this  and we have handouts once again and it explains it points to the charter the powers and duties of this board of ethics and they have some pretty powerful things they can do such as power to an issue impeachment proceedings against elected officers and the the there they're charged to make sure that the adopt rules that have force in effect of law so i would suspect the op to have some sort of idea of what you know the law states and they shall make findings of facts and conclusions of law regarding such issues and shelter transmit the same to the appropriate appointing authority and the prosecuting attorney for her period disposition so i think overall i see this body is having  i stated some heavy powers and responsibilities and currently there is no no qualification of any attorneys to be sitting on that i know we have our county corporation counsel jury in the room during their proceedings but i think it be helpful to have a couple more i heard people say may yet more than one attorney in the room and it all goes where you don't want to go but i beg to differ and think you know more expertise in the field can can be a positive too so i'd like to i wan point we spoke about the public works commission that does dictate type of membership requirements such as engineers registered professional engineers also a member knowledgeable in the hawaiian language and of course the residency component where you have a resident on that particular commission so those are kind of my thoughts and justifications for wanting to add this on and put it to the body i mean put it to the simple kind of turns into everybody having an opinion including us it gets kind of i think i mean one and that journey might be helpful you know in addition to i don't i don't see a situation unless is litigation that is you know a situation where there is no compromise but when you're talking about decision making or drafting or an allied analytically thinking i think two attorneys in in one room is very beneficial so i just want to give that plug have like the common man's understanding of god thinks i don't need a professional but a license telling me they're educated point of view i need the common sense common man's approach to ethics  the commonsense approach that's what i look at the board for representing the general communities understanding of general appropriate behavior regarding that and so i like it the way it is because it allows us to make that determination on each and every nominee statements and facts presented to us so maintain a complete open on the amount of people that could apply this council can problems at lawyers except i want to if they're going to have enough time to serve as a volunteer and then if you have lawyers and and continued absence  that becomes a concern and i think sometimes it if one is a lawyer and and does apply and then fine if we are ok that position but i think that lease and come there as sincere people who wish to justify what's at the core and what's not and state of getting into the that legal arguments about it all i think that's why you have most commission and boards that are staffed by corporation console hopefully they will be the experts in providing the necessary legal advice that the boards or the commission with is if they start planning or what have you thank you thank you very much ordinance as opposed to charter you know when i was vice chair we had a lawyer who was the chair and of the board of ethics and he was very cooperative with corporation counsel as far as he didn't do any of the lawyer stuff looking for the the common someone who's not used to being in this realm needs to have have some observation and asked to have some input on it and i think that's why it's better to have somebody i mean when i went on air i had no idea about anything about politics or was it and learned a lot from from the existing members and from corporation councils and lastly there are different types of attorneys are we talking any kind of attorney because there's civil matter and all kinds of different civil matter attorneys and then there's criminal attorneys and all kinds of different subspecialties there is  is somebody who wants to try to make laws because i don't believe a criminal attorneys make laws civil attorneys can help right i don't know it's just that's opening up a can of worms i think  and authority unlike any other and and they're not just advice theory and so i hear the concerns of people who want regular everyday kind of people their seven and their members on this board who are can be that but to have the two expertise in the field so to speak of the law so if things come out case examples or whatever it's called then that they can sort of that through it you know and so for me i do see a system broke in some stuff so i would like to get a better oversight i guess within this poor so that's it real briefly and quickly of thing if we get support thank you very much which is created by charter has the power to impeach on ethical charges so that being said you know each and every one of us could be held to a charge and be placed in a situation where these members on this board decide whether you're guilty or not and if if you're found guilty you're not peach of all that board can impeach you strip you from your office so in terms of making a proper decision maybe a common person or professional person making the decision i would rather have at least in my situation if i'm place in that situation have someone that has some type of legal understanding because a lot of times irrelevancy in a lot of these charges come into play and sometimes these irrelevant facts are irrelevant claims are looked at as legitimate and a lot of times when we knew when you passed your bar exam or you go through law it's not about earning their degree it's about analytical thinking and that training that you receive and decipher and what is what is irrelevant and relevant so i would rather that we at least have one person on that on that commission or that ethics board with a law if there was the whole impeachment thing then there's a special counsel that that also assists with the corporation counsel so it's there's there's checks and balances in there and as m well first of all let me get to item number twelve camas item earlier in the meeting and so with that great discussion having been made i would like to move to file this resolution and it's kind of  i did relay on the floor my position on this particular charter and then met this is this emulates the language that is presented in the honolulu charter that allows the council serve this attorneys in honolulu to be allowed to offer render legal opinions to sign off on legislative draft says to form in legality as presented so initially like as stated in the previous meeting i had proposed to the first one being the ability to this council to terminate corporation counsel and i still feel although he is appointed by the mayor of the mayor is the only one that can terminate so and i see the corporation council as certain as being neutral in all aspects so if that's good i guess symbol or sign of the trial it is the ability of both parties to have that authorisation to terminate and hire if one party which is the mayor has all of the power then it's not balanced alternatively i propose this other charter amendment which would allow our council service attorneys to give to render legal opinions all right any other discussion mr culch thank you and i think i mentioned it but i'm not sure i'm fine with the first one you know the baby a special counsel leads into legal representatives of the council and its members i think that should only be in the case of where corporation council ma is with the executive branch or the corporation council may represent the mare or officers of the executive branch in the event that attorneys within the office of counsel service or or so authorize those staff attorney shall be deemed special counsel so  that's the that's the one that i can support the other two  i would support that the they could be some special counsel but not with this language thank you suggesting this language would be appropriate for you liked it or you thought it would could work did you give comment towards that i i i would i would say again without talking to my boss office so that special counsel could be from david's office but they will be appointed according he would not authorize the slate of attorneys awkward thank you i guess it was mentioned also that sometimes our own my staff would like to get legal counsel from city people downstairs at o c s but they are not allowed to and i think this language would allow them to under the circle break mr mn i guess proposal so i see our advantage to that actually so those are my  my main what i would like to end up with is the ability to have our attorneys act as special counsel when necessary and if there  i'm supportive of the way mr goodman has put it but if there's a desire to have some limitations on that i would still be open to that as long as we have understanding that when we have  render some opinions least in the bare minimum of forming legality event situations where and sometimes our legislation our origins are held hostage in terms of not being able to be signed is to form illegality because of some political purposes and some type of agendas from some certain certain departments and so i realize that and the very end when there is an opinion from a cow from from what we would represent a representative of the council that comes off as being more credible as to putting that opinion forth right and presenting it to corporation council saying hey take a look at this opinion and maybe you can change your opinion but without having that credibility of the corporation council and some of the deputies could easily i'm not saying it happens but in some cases it does can easily see from their nose and say you know what i'm not even going to consider that because what i wrote in my opinion stands and that's not proper and the maybe that should be an internal policy but and tell that happens and we've seen this happen time and time again when there's a conflict that's why you see my loneliness communication you see when i did the research on this particular item you go back at least four or five six councils back in the linda lingle days this has been a problem so if we're talking about resolving problems either we we do what is stated here in this in this amendment or you authorize  council to have terminations powers and i think that's the way to balance everything out and i think it's going to make a cleaner more efficient process people say  it'll cause havoc but i don't think so i don't think so any time any time you try something new there's always going to be hesitation and fear but right now it's not working and you say well works fifty percent of the time  fifty percent is not good enough this government needs to change this government needs to get more efficient and that's why and how all these other proposals happening because if we don't start changing in the right direction and making things happen we're going to stay status quo we're always going to have the same problems time and time again com up and this charter amendment has been coming up over and over again and so i just think this is the right thing to do it's proposal you know my support to allow our consul attorneys to reviewed legislation on that i think is very consistent with other levels like government the state attorney general does not say enough one house or or defer that legislation i don't have a problem with that for me though after we go through if we continue to go through the confirmation process chairman at the end of the day yes i think it's fair i mean for my soul if i had i would like to get a second sort of legal opinion of sorts if i had some major something happen in my life so i kind of look at this body hav opportunity by putting this into play with our legal services downstairs to and i've seen where may not agree with the existing corporation council's call on something and perhaps i think it's only right that we seek another opinion or recommendation or whatever it is and i think that's what attorneys do the know the laws inside and out and they will take out what they feel is appropriate to mixing i think mr okama was talking about legal advice as opposed to a legal representative i have the concern with the legal representative part legal advisor find if they want to  give us a second opinion and what not but to represent i believe unless it's a special counsel where we work complex we already have a whole floor full of the tourney's that represent us  i'm fine for a second opinion or legal advice if we if we pulled out legal representative of then i'm fine with that but that's where my sticking point is the legal representative portion because the i would like to go down and talk to one of the attorneys and say hey can you give me some advice of this but as interesting mr boozman appears to be a really good attorney because he had he argued both sides of this thing  like to add if we get to that point the whole deal about special counsel yes if we need special counsel we can tap on our four attorneys that we have which includes i believe mr webb so we can tap chair you know it's with the with the various opinions here we've got going i think it would be appropriate for us to defer this and work on a little bit shucks you know i was finally ready to do something and then you're going to ask me to be for one more time you've got the emergency management organization objections i will be furthered this matter so that this can be brought up at i'm not sure about the next meeting but if i can have a special meeting because i would like to clear all of this on a special meeting so be prepared please i need a reconvene that we do have a date and in mine and we will be sending out the whole question for this particular date i hope most of you can make it i was instructed not to give it out again i want to give it out it's not an open meeting i mean no no no again it is actually after the next not this coming meaning the next council meeting which would be july june june flight for fifteen or so i'm going to see one o'clock and you know we'll send the pull out and if you go to come a little bit late then you come a little bit late i'm sorry you know and this is one of those that i really like to complete it if we member by say if you going to come back a little bit late that's ok you know i'm sorry i'm just trying to make it fair for everybody sorry but i already bought a ticket so i'm going to go i'll be a little late but i'll be here that's why i didn't buy it because i was i didn't know the month so that's not too bad you know unless you guys want to give up your meeting slots i mean i'm stuck because if i only get three hours i don't know if i can finish everything so let's forget the june sevent couldn't look very own chair june twenty seventh if you want to take up my you want to all day meeting and i can give i am to you for the monday the twenty suggest that since this is a normal meeting day we shouldn't have to poll to make sure that all the members are here well not every member is part of i am right but it's also pia which everyone is a member of so i would just suggest that rather than asking every day every member's office just have whatever member doesn't feel they're going to be here that day you can contact your you know your office one of the nonmembers just