the subcommittee will come darter the chair will ask all member staff and everyone to turn electronic devices off or on vibrate the subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony regarding commercial spare commercial space transportation  i welcome all of our witnesses here today i will give them a brief opening statement and then recognize the ranking member mr p try for any remarks he would like to make or an opening statement i welcome everyone here to the subcommittee hearing on commercial space transportation it's been almost five years since the subcommittees last hearing on the topic so it's important that we get an update from the f a a safety oversight and how the industry is evolving to ensure that a has the proper resources i'm very familiar with the emerging commercial space transportation industry not only for my work on the house science and technology committee but also because the x prize foundation which is well known for designing and managing public competitions for aviation and space is located in st louis missouri across the river from my congressional district the commercial space transportation tourism has not led to regularly scheduled man air show this past july one factor playing into the future of the commercial space transportation industry is the expectation that the u s space shuttle fleet will retire in two thousand and ten the united states will be without vehicles to transport cargo and people for at least five years before the next u s launch vehicle will be operational the reality is that the united states may have to rely on other countries to facilitate this travel unless commercial space transportation is able to fill the gap congress passed several laws to allow commercial space transportation to develop so we must ensure that the industry has proper federal safety oversight since one thousand nine hundred nine approximately ten percent of the launches have failed but in the last eight years this number has improved to three percent as a number of launches ics is expected to increase with commercial space tourism and the potential use of commerce space launch vehicles by nasa and the up to a must have the proper resources to ensure new technologies and programs of valves safely i look forward to hearing from the f a a associate administrator for commercial space transportation about the f a s role and overseeing the commercial space industry to ensure the safety of the public as well as the crew and space flight participants commercial space transportation is also likely to have an end packed on our air traffic control system especially as the united states implements the next generation air transportation system today's low number of yearly launches allows the a t c to have just the national airspace system to accommodate launch and re entry for instance if a commercial space transportation vehicle window at the ace the a t c could briefly shut down the affected airspace however if the launches increase in the future civil aviation traffic may not allow the a t c the same flexibility and may require additional protocols and car paraded in next gen to keep the airspace safe as we implement next gen is important to consider all space transportation issues that might impact the airspace in addition to the impact on our a t c the environment in our communities will be affected by increased commercial space tourism congress must guarantee the f a a has the tools it needs to ensure the safety of flight for both aircraft and launch vehicles as well as to protect the environment from these activities currently there are seven licensed spaceports in the united states six federally launch sites and eight proposed space ports in different degrees of development environmental impact such as noise and greenhouse gas emissions will play a role in commercial space boards just as they do it us airports and communities it is important for this subcommittee to examine the issues associated with licensing these facilities and the role these facilities have in the united states with that i welcome  witnesses here today and look forward to hearing their testimony before i recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee mr p try for his remarks your opening statement i ask unanimous consent to allow two weeks for all members to revise and extend their remarks and to permit th submission of additional statements and materials by members and what mrs without objection so larger the chair now recognizes mr p try for his comments or his opening statement mr chairman thank you for holding this important hearing i requested this hearing because although it rarely dominates the headlines a man's commercial space transportation represents the future of cargo and passenger transportation in the united states and in fact around our globe a little more than five years ago scale composites spaceship one became the first private spacecraft to launch more than sixty two miles into space and return safely twice in two weeks with a pilot on board with this flight the commercial space la industry formally focused on delivery of payloads into outer space and for the next phase of its development manned commercial space transportation the space ship one launches altered our vision of what the aviation system of the future will entail including the development of space tourism u s spaceports rapid global transportation and point to point commercial space flight services it also raises new issues with regard to safe operations impact analysis and infrastructure development in one thousand nine hundred four congress passed the commercial space launch act which sought to encourage the development of the emerging commercial space launch industry and to facilitate compliance with federal safety requirements this act gave the f a a the authority to license commercial launches carrying crew and space flight participants or or passengers the office of commercial space flight transferred station within the f a a oversees the safety of the commercial space launch industry through licensing and permitting activities though there were only four commercial space launches in two thousand and nine i suspect a lot of behind the scenes activity has gone into the goal of making man commercial space transportation both routine and safe given that the last hearing on commercial space transportation held by this subcommittee was as you pointed out mr chairman in two thousand and five very interested to get an update today  this important transportation sector as the industry grows and develops other issues will require this committee's attention including first the impact of commercial space launches on the management of the air traffic control system second the role of the f a a and space port development third the impact of legal liability on investment opportunities in commercial space transportation and forth the best approach to ensuring the highest level of safety of commercial space launches some of predicted that within two to three years commercial space tourism could really take off here in the united states if this prediction proved to be accurate  witness a major development in human transportation and it's vitally important that the f a a and the congress are prepared and happy to introduce  the wisconsin aerospace authority i appreciate that they're here to share the views of this space port community the wisconsin aerospace authority was established several years ago through legislation passed by the wisconsin state legislature signed into law by the governor to support the development of the space industry in our particular state mr test we will share with us the experience of the ongoing effort to  show boykin is located didn't my congressional district as well as other spaceports around the country welcome as well to mark the authority who has devoted much time and effort to this project like to thank all of our witnesses for their participation and i thank you again mr chairman for holding this important hearing i thank the ranking member for his comments and for his opening statement and now the chair will introduce the  witnesses here today to testify the first to witness will be dr george neeld the associated minister for the office of commercial space transportation with the f a a dr gerald dillingham director physical infrastructure issues with the u s government accountability office who has testified before this subcommittee probably more times and he would like to but he has been with us many times mr ed j p stevens is the vice president space systems aerospace industries association of america he will be testifying on behalf of the west concent aerospace authority and he is accompanied by i understand will not offer testimony but may be here to answer questions if we have questions mr mark hanna who's the vice chair of the west concent aerospace a y gentlemen we appreciate your appearance here today and we look forward to hearing your testimony and i would remind our witnesses that we would ask you to summarize your statement in five minutes or thank you for inviting me to participate in this hearing to update you on the activities of the federal aviation administration related to commercial space transportation this morning i would like to briefly summarize the history mission and recent accomplishments of the f a s office of commercial space transportation and to highlight some of the challenges we'll be facing in the years ahead the office with established through an executive order and passage of the commercial space launch act back in hundred four originally it was located in the office of the secretary of transportation however in november of one nine hundred ninety five it was transferred to the f a a where today it is one of the four lines of business along with aviation safety airports and the air traffic organization our most critical mission is ensuring public safety during commercial launch and reentry activities we do this in a number of ways first we issued launch licenses experimental permits and safety approvals since the office where the stablished there have been two hundred license launches with the most recent being an atlas five from cape canaveral just last week during all of those launches that have not been any accidents resulting in fatalities serious injuries or significant property damage to the un involved public or office also issues licenses for the operation of launch sites or space ports since one nine hundred ninety six we have issues on site operator license for seven space ports with several others having been proposed we also develop an issue regulations that are designed to ensure that commercial launch and re entry activities are conducted safely finally we perform safety inspections in conjunction with all license and permitted launches to see to it that operations are conducted in accordance with those regulations shortly after the x prize winning flights of space ship one congress passed the commercial space launch amendments act of two thousand and four which gave the f a a additional responsibilities for regulating commercial human space flight consistent with that legislation are implementing regulations make clear that individuals participating in human space flight will encounter an elevated level of risk and therefore must be fully informed of that risk and acknowledge it before climbing aboard the rocket in the five years sense adoption of the commercial space launch amendments act the commercial space industry has come a long way at the same time it is clear that the future will be filled with challenges for example nasa is currently in the process of retiring the space shuttle with just five more launches on the schedule after the shuttle's retirement commercial launches licensed by the f a a will be a key part of the plan for delivery of equipment and supplies to the international space station in fact we are currently working very closely with both orbital sciences corporation and space x the companies that have been selected by nasa to perform these resupplying to these on their planned operations a second key challenge involves the start of commercial human space flight and specifically sub orbital space tourism today our office is working with a number of different companies each of which is in the process of designing building and testing rocket powered vehicles capable of carrying people to the edge of space we know that not all of the companies engaged in this effort will be successful some will encounter technical difficulties others will have financial challenges but i'm quite sure that it will not be long before we will be seeing test flights of a variety of reusable launch vehicle concepts as congress has pointed out space transportation is inherently risky at the f a a safety helping to safeguard the public during spaceflight operations at the very core of our mission something that shapes our days and guides our work this is an exciting time for commercial space transportation and we are committed to doing our part to enable safe and successful ranking member peter i and members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting me back to appear before the subcommittee again in october two thousand and six following the completion of a study done at the request of this committee we made several recommendations to f and proposed a matter for congressional consideration regarding the commercial space launch industry my testimony today updates the status of those recommendations and look forward to some key emerging issues regarding our recommendations based on the forecast in two thousand and six of potentially significant growth in the commercial space launch industry especially the development of space ports in space tourism we made three recommendations first f a a should develop a strategic assessment to determine whether it had enough staff with the right skills to handle the expected workload second f a a should be proactive rather than reactive in considering how to regulate the safety of space tourism and third we recommended  a and the depart of commerce develop a memorandum of understanding that would clearly delineate their respective promotional rows for this industry we also asked the congress to consider whether it wanted to revisit the existing mandate for f a a to regulate the safety of the industry as well as promote it f a a has generally been responsive to our recommendations f a a has added technical staff to the office of the commercial space transportation and developed an m o u with commerce f has also taken steps towards being proactive in safety regulations but it's been somewhat limited because of the relatively low level of activity in the industry for example in two thousand and six since two thousand and six the annual number of f a a license commercial launches has dropped off from a high of twenty two in one thousand nine hundred eighty two a total of only twenty in the last three years none of which were manned new spaceport development has also been limited overall we believe that f has taken reasonable steps to ensure that it can fulfill its current safety oversight role turning to the near future senior f a a officials are predicting significant increases in the number of commercial launches in the relative short term and nasa plans to sponsor commercial launches after retired the space shuttle sometime in two thousand and ten as a space launch industry expands congress f a a and other stakeholders would need to actively address several issues first if the industry expands as predicted a reassessment of f a s need for regulatory resources and expertise would be appropriate second f a a will also need to ensure that its current regulations on licensing and safety requirements will also be suitable for space port operations and for launches from nasa facilities sir f a a must continue to be proactive in developing safety indicators for the space tourism industry regarding our earlier requests to congress we see no need for congress to step in at this time to require our separation of f a a is regulatory and promotional activities however we would caution that f a a and congress must continue to guard against any potential conflict of interest between f a a and the space launch industry such as those that were recently raised about f a a and some elements of the airline industry with regard to emerging issues international competition is one such issue how large cost and export controls affect the ability of u s companies to sell their services and products abroad many of the industry experts we spoke with pointed to the continuation of federal indemnification and a review of the current export licensing requirements as examples of the kinds of federal involvement needed to support the industry's growth and competitiveness another emerging issue in the international arena will be to develop and harmonize safety standards and regulations but usually those concerning space tourism flights u leadership in developing standards could boost us r and d and manufacturing outputs as well as support future joint ventures another key emerging issue that was identified by the chairman and the ranking minority member in their opening statements is the integration space transportation into next general among the issues to be considered are commentating spacecraft that are traveling to and from space through the national airspace system determining controller workload and crew rest requirements for space operations and assessing potential environmental impacts finally an overall over arching issue with implications for us space launch industry is a lack of a comprehensive space launch strategy according to the national academy of sciences such a strategy could leverage resources from various agencies to address such shared challenges as a diminishing space industrial base the sector skerrick the scarcity of available technical workforce and reduced funding levels chairman thank you dr dillingham the chairman recognize mr stevens good morning chairman castello ranking member p try members of the subcommittee i'm grateful for the opportunity to testify before you today is the largest aerospace trade association in the united states we represent almost three hundred manufacturing companies that provide over six hundred thirty one thousand highly skilled jobs and indirectly support another two million middle class jobs and thirty thousand suppliers from all fifty states i want to start off by saying we appreciate the efforts of congress to keep our commercial civil and national security space programs healthy we take comfort that congress recognizes that space has become a part of our daily lives and virtually every part of the u s economy is touched by their applications we also like to take this opportunity to commend the f a s office of commercial space transportation which has been open to productive discussion on commercial space issues their commercial space transportation advisory committee includes a wide range of industry experts who provide information advice and recommendations to the f a a administrator on a regular basis they also host the annual commercial space transportation conference which industries found to be an excellent venue for sharing information and expressing our concerns believes f a s struck the right balance on a very difficult issue on one side of the balance is a need to safeguard the participants of human spaceflight in the general public on the other side is a need to provide flexibility so that this industry can grow and become viable keep in mind that with the success of spaceship one in two thousand and four there have only been three manned commercial space flights today we believe the f a a presently has a sound framework in place and understands that as a new industry evolves the regulations must also evolve there also outside of then sec could celebrate the f a s role in licensing and oversight as you are aware the augustine committee recently provided the administration with a series of option and regarding nasa's future direction they included continue with the program of record what's called the constellation program and options that could have commercial space companies flying astronauts to the international space station as dr neil mention the space shuttle is also slated to retire after five more flights in the f a a is preparing for commercial cargo flights to the station there are some other concerns the commercial space issues that concern as space launch capabilities have been developed by other nations our share has decreased significantly for example in two thousand and eight six of the twenty eight commercial launches were conducted by u s companies also with every other nation with commercial space launch capabilities provide their companies with some form of government indemnification against third party liability our program expires in twenty nine days we believe loss of indemnification could drive even more launch business overseas and could impact the launches of u s civil and national security payloads the current regime provides no funds and it requires congressional approval for any payment so continuing to indemnify commercial launches incurs no additional expense to the u s taxpayers the house recently voted to extend indemnification to the end of two thousand and twelve and we hope the senate will do the same our space and outer duster obeys designs builds and supports all our space systems we need to keep this base healthy and competitive while i believe that it's important to protect critical u s capabilities many export control policies are counterproductive for our industry while we must keep sensitive technologies out of the wrong hands we must also facilitate trade with our friends and allies in a timely manner barriers to the export control export competitiveness of u s companies have prompted numerous companies countries to develop their own aerospace capabilities without a cutting edge  industrial base our government could be forced to rely on foreign suppliers for key components and i don't think we want that to have appen a i a members believe that most of the one on the most important long term issues facing our industry is having a trained technical workforce for the future currently we graduate just seventy four thousand engineers a year further many of those students are foreign nationals who return home shortly after graduating which drops the number of domestically employable ingenue years to less sixty thousand per year in comparison india and china respectively graduate six and ten times more engineering students than we do each year so what can be done to draw more students into science and engineering well i believe one is expanding human spaceflight however the industry that inspires our youth needs to be present in vibrant if we expect them to major in a stem discipline and become a part of our workforce in conclusion our commercial space industry is at a critical juncture however commercial space flights that will carry humans into space is on the horizon however this market is competitive our share a small and we have a lot of work to do to ensure that this new industry has the opportunity to grow and compete in a global marketplace i think the committee for their time and attention i look forward to answering any of your questions share thank you mr stevens and now recognizes mr grayson thank you thank you all for the opportunity to testify before this committee on the state of the u s commercial space transportation industry as noted i'm speaking today both as a c e o of xcor and as vice chairman of the commercial spaceflight federation in the five years since congress passed the commercial space launch amendments act clear and flexible regulatory regime from that bipartisan act has boosted the confidence of investors on her nerves and customers the united states is now seen as a leader in this field because of the support of regulatory climate that has encouraged development of several suborb reusable vehicles to address scientific research and education markets as well as space flight participants also there have been investments in commercial spacecraft for carriage of cargo and humans to and from earth orbit using expendable launch vehicles i believe  t has done a good job of implementing the statute both in new regulations and through developing their skills to work with these new kinds of vehicles i particularly want to praise the offices placement of technical staff out in the field where they can closely observe development test activities of industry in spite of advances in engineering and modeling no one can predict what the safest designs technologies or operating approaches for commercial spacecraft will be to learn them we must fly and after a suitable flight test program building up the thousands of flights need to learn what techniques work the best means flying for revenue the purpose of disclosing our safety record through informed consent is called for in the act is to force companies to compete with each other to improve safety as quickly as possible this regulatory regime grows out of the twin missions of a s t to promote the industry while protecting the on of all public the only workable approach at this stage of development at the present time questions of safety are foremost in the minds of potential customers both participants and payload developers to achieve a viable industry we must innovate in safety that means that p v achieving a superior record to what's been done in the past innovation requires change and to achieve superior safety in the future we have to try new safety technologies and practices the reality is that some of those changes will be improvements and some will not and without the freedom to try we can improve this need to find a better safer way to operate is what motivates the industry and the best way for the f a a to promote the industry is a just and identifying best practices and encouraging their swift adoption that makes it critical that we and the f a a collaborate share knowledge freely i can't state strongly enough that at the present time the industry faces irresistible economic pressure to strive for the a system possible operation that's economically achievable and the f a a is mandate to promote the growth of the industry is therefore a mandate to foster a continuous safety improvement there is simply no conflict today between regulation and promotion and there will not be the chance for conflict until industry has a demonstrated safety record in which multiple operators have shown themselves safe enough that customers stop shopping for safety and come to expect it is a given we are certainly not at that point today i don't expect to be for many years space vehicles transition through the air space for launch and reentry historically space launches were so infrequent that you cleared all the air traffic away from their launch that is not how so orbital reusable launch vehicles will operate the space flight will become one of many users of the shared her space in the remote regions where we fly in mojave we have recently been demonstrating elements of that air space coordination with exports recent rocket powered aircraft operations looking to the future for objects in orbit space traffic management is a very complicated issue  space is inherently a global domain and the physics of the environment make it very different from air traffic that's an area where there's a lot of policy development at the national and international level that's required and what agencies of the u s government wind up playing what roles in the eventual system is far from clear any discussion of the issues facing the commercial space industry would be incomplete without repeating the need to reform u s export control practices i will not belabor the problems that others have alluded to but experience shows that regardless of the intent the actual is to ensure that bright aerospace engineers educated here go to work overseas and that foreign investors invest in foreign competitors instead of u s companies while commercial space flight human space flight and the vehicles that produce it are still in the early days we can already see opportunities for industry to provide services needed by the department of defense and nasa the market of serving these needs will stimulate further development of the industry as well as strengthens the nation's space capability for promising areas include small satellite launch orbital research payloads transport of nasa astronauts to the international space station and launch a propellant to orbit for exploration missions the combined promise of these various markets strengthens my belief in a bright future for the commercial space transportation industry operating within a stable regulatory and policy framework thank you for the opportunity to be here today and i look forward your questions to you for your testimony ona lot recognizes mr graham this week thank you mr chairman ranking member peter and subcommittee i'd like to first state that f a s t has successfully executed executed its mission as far as we can tell f a a integrates years of experience in aviation and airport operation into its commercial spaceflight oversight the commercial space community must be self constraining with expert and experiential based mentoring from the f a a and others providing guidelines for licensing and achieving safety and environmental goals the u s needs to maintain its competitive edge and develop an economically sustainable commercial space model industry state governments and the f a a need to identify and mentor the licensing of operators spaceport assets need to be identified and implementation plans and viability studies need to be completed spaceport and vehicle developer operators need to continue the current collaborative environment among themselves and the f a a the nurturing of spaceport assets provides sufficient growth efficiencies of a mall to use facility can be utilized to horizontal takeoff space planes can co exist that conventional airports with proper attributes identification of current assets that can be utilized by both conventionally reaction and space activities can dramatically reduce costs of the creation of space infrastructure in space port creation the earlier the potential spaceport identifies a goal of launch licensing the sooner a space for development plan can be created and with that plan the spaceport has greater potential for savings through cooperative use infrastructure planning case study of space torture boy can we have a restricted airspace over low population density safety zone lake michigan currently utilized by the coast guard in the air national guard approximately thirty days  year previously has received numerous every waivers to launch rockets up to thirty five miles or two hundred thousand feet home of great lakes aerospace science and education center close proximity to an active airport allowing flight profile similar to other tourist profiles of other spaceports exclusive tourist destination american club and cole are ready attracting visitors of that class close proximity to wisconsin's experimental aircraft association restricted air springs flight profile we have created the wisconsin aerospace authority whose mission is to promote stimulate and facilitate aerospace related educational and economic opportunities capabilities and activities within our state including the development of space porch  and point to point sub orbital transportation is on the horizon eventually suborbital space flight will evolve to include point to point transportation opportunities sub orbital velocity is outside the friction of the atmosphere bring the entire world within a two hour flight spaceports that start as space tourism centers will eventually become regional suborbital homes wisconsin is trying to do its part wisconsin is doing its part to capitalize on the opportunity presented by the restricted air space to help our nation participate in the next global transportation revolution we asked the committee in subcommittee support approaches actions and licensing process is currently used by the f a a we have wisconsin aerospace authority and space fortune blog and look forward to engaging in the next steps with the f a a we also asked the committee to consider reintroducing federal funding for initial space port development planning this type of seed capital can from it since i can assure the proper design of a spaceport from its inception with early recognition the effect of utilization of existing attributes the spaceport can utilize its capital more effectively early and throw planning reduces risks the risk to the environment the economic risk to the operator and its community it increases the safety of the un involved public and the operators it increases the long term economic viability and sustainability of the space transportation industry in the u s for this perceivable future thank you very much for the opportunity to testify and look forward to answering your questions in the chair thanks you and dr neal me start with you and let me ask you as you know our subcommittee usually deals with the certification america crampton sense commercial space transportation is not certified but it's licensed can you walk us through the process of the licensing process with the activity is consistent with our national policy and foreign policy objective we look at the payload and bomb to ensure that there thing unusual or inappropriate concerning the purpose of the launch of course the most important review is the safety review where we're looking at possible hazards involved and how that could be mitigated we also conduct an environmental review in compliance with the by the national environmental policy act there's finally a financial responsibility view which involves the analysis of the maximum probable lof not the worst case but the most likely bad day during a lodge and that information is used by us to establish the insurance requirements for the launch operators so with those reviews complete that allows us to make a determination on the issuance of a launch license we have one hundred eighty days there are statute in order to come up with that determination thank you mr grayson would you like to comment is to your experience in dealing with the the licensing process would think of characterize it as we in the f a a together both of us as an operator and us in the industry are still working out together exactly how to handle these new class of vehicles every new vehicle right now  reusable category that comes to the f a a is essentially the first of its kind because we don't have standardization in the industry yet about how we are going to approach these problems given that you know it's a it's a collaborative process and it takes time but i also think it's a value added process that's it's very you know any honest engineer or appreciates having someone knowledgeable looking over their shoulder and asking tough questions so it's it's  it's a challenging process sometimes to get true but i think it's a worthwhile one thank you dr dillingham you state in your testimony that the f a a needs to develop safety indicators and collect data to help determine when to begin regulating crew and passengers safety wonder if you might elaborate on that thank you mr chairman as was mentioned by some of the witnesses and also as a result of the legislation industry f a a has not been able to actually do the kind of collection of safety data that it would that it has done or has done in the aviation area the point that we wanted to make was that f a a should continue to be proactive in this area that doing the things that it's currently doing like taking lessons learned and sharing information those are those are some polemic steps that they they can continue to take but as soon as if feasible when the experience base is there they should in fact be collecting safety indicators so that they can be proactive in developing needed regulations as opposed to reactive thank you mr stevens you indicate in your testimony that there are issues that the f a a obviously needs to look at surrounding integrated commercial space flight into the air traffic control system i wonder if you might  a lab rate on some of those issues well i think i would add to what i said in my testimony by saying that it is a complex issue and as we look at next gen moving for we need to take into account all those i would like to amplify and extend some of the things that are going on with saying about the need for tracking safety indicators i think it's a misconception of the state of the current bac that the f a a is currently constrained from regulating instead they are constrained they are constrained only to regulate for the safety of the participants where there is data in the sense of a series of incidents or an accident that shows that there is a problem that needs regulating and i and i were in my house as a member of the industry trade association couldn't be more in favor of that in fact if anything i completely agree we need to work together very hard to make sure that we have as much advance data as possible so that we can spot trends and and take action as or whatever that action might be as early as we can and that's a collaborative thing between us and the f a a and i would just like to reiterate what mr stephen said about education and encouraging our youth i firmly believe that the space program had a very large bias in creating a large number of engineers twenty thirty years ago and i think if we can engage the youth the day in our further exploration of space we education dr neil de the senior f a a officials in the past have predicted that commercial air space transportation the industry will expand two to three hundred annual launches  not only question for you the question for others on the panel if you'd like to answer it how soon do you think that we begin to see increases in reach the level of two hundred  that's an excellent question of course it's hard to predict the future but as i look at the kinds of activities that we're likely to see i anticipate three different kinds we'll see a continuation of the current expendable launches of telecommunications satellites and so forth that we've had for a number of years and that will continue on into the indefinite future we will also see shortly with the retirement of the space shuttle a new kind of car marshal activity designed to take cargo to the international space station and i believe that activity will be on the order of six to eight launches per year and will start in the next couple of years but the prime driver for the kinds of flight rates that you mentioned will and all likelihood be a result of so over the space tourism the commercial human space flight and i believe that within the next five years we will see several companies that are conducting regular and frequent launches up to the edge of space and that will of course greatly change how we think about space transportation mr stevens i agree with dr neil on all those accounts the one thing i would bring up is  that i'm very concerned as i mentioned in my testimony that the number of commercial launches done by united states is very low and we need to really take a look at our reform and it's very as i mentioned that is hurting our industry and we definitely need pass it the senate to approve ind fication before the end of this year and the other anyone else on the panel here yes i think i think it's important to point  that to the extent that the industry does expand that that f a a will will need to match the resources and skill mix elby needed to oversee that industry collaboratively or otherwise  and i think it's important to note that in addition to the pipeline not being what what the pipeline should be for math and science there's also the potential difficulty with f a a attracting those people those kinds of skill people to get to to the agency we recently issued a report that indicated that f a a had some work to do in order to make itself a place where those kinds of skills would be inclined to go to and and to their credit administrator babbitt has made that a focus but this could take time and f a a is right now they they are in fact able to to match the size of the of the industry and its activities but it's something that needs to be kept on the radar screen very good thank you dr dillingham the chair now recognizes the ranking member mr peet right well thank you  somewhat of a measure of sensitivity to the relationship between a very high tech very emerging industry and what can be the deadening hand of government regulation we can produce or sel from success if we're not not careful and yet at the other hand we do have some obligation to make sure that things are being done responsibly and risks are taken i was sensitized to that myself  a several years ago when i was invited to have lunch with the giants in this field and who is pleading with the f a a to classify spaceship one as a space ship not as an airplane because it had to go success he's developed a cutting edge planes for the intelligence industry and defense industry for a generation and very successfully but he said this mentality of his team is to continually challenge the design and look for ways to improve it and if they suddenly had to switch to defending the design that would have a psychologically deadening effect on innovation  and and and he thought on safety actually and he's had a very wonderful safety record given what he's been attempting to do over the years so this is an interesting balance and i'm happy that to hear that you're sensitive to to that maybe one question for mr test we'd working in a in a midwestern community on this whole cutting edge industry what's really in it at the end of the day for a local community or state that participates in this program could you discuss why people should be interested in and trying to participate in this whole effort thank you mr pre treat yes i think for a small town like sheboygan wisconsin in a state that's not typically thought of as a cutting edge technology state i would have exception to that but i don't think in the general nation you know people get much beyond bratwurst and cheese i would say that there are lots of things that it brings including as i mentioned before the  space travel to the midwest and to a local region but the in just real impact of having regular splays flights just for tourism then possibly a midwest point to point hub have long term financial ramifications for the region and i think that would be very very good economically long term in the short term i think you get back to the psychological realization that we are on the cutting edge that if you come from wisconsin you can go to madison and get some very fancy engineering experience if you choose to you'll be with unfortunately right now an awful lot of foreigners but i'd love to see a lot more badgers there becoming engineers and going to work for m and for the f a a and developing this area in the future so i think i think there's a great opportunity in a missed opportunity by most of rural america or central america i should say in the space world we've recognized that because we have that asset out in lake michigan that is clearly a low population density area a couple fisherman and it's restricted and it's been used so we intend to capitalize on that asset and see if we can move forward with this prospect you mentioned cheese and worse and probably here would be appropriate as well i think of though it's not as much of the work but i think people are aware our biggest employer in the least for many years ha been general electrican part of that is making missile guidance systems and we do it tremendous have a tremendous industrial infrastructure for everything from laddish making the big castings that are vital for the air air airplanes into street to many of the keep components that support our navy around the world as subcontractors are very intense in our you know our region so we have nothing to be to apologize for in terms of contributing to the space effort in our part of the world thank you very much chair thanks the ranking member now recognizes the gentle lady from you stated that the f a a dentist has policies which may have an unintended very impact on commercial sleeze transportation efforts could you go into that a little bit more certainly as part of our statutory charge we are encouraged to work with other government agencies to do exactly what you have described and i think an excellent example of that would be our partnership with the united states air force on the eastern launch range we have worked together for a number of years to try and develop common launch safety standards so that whether a rocket is being launched in order to put defense satellite into orbit or for a commercial communication satellite the basic safety standards would be the same so that is not an issue of being hard or easy on safety it's a question of can we come together and have common standards so these launch providers do not have to keep separate set of books depending on who the customer is for the launch so that would be one example of the kinds of things that we're trying to do in order to streamline and allow it to in fact and go the extra activities that will take place when the space shuttle is retired some time in twenty jan what i also meant to say is as not only as as nasa turns over those kinds of responsibilities as the other part of the space launch industry expands f a a will also need to expand its resources to be able to handle that has anyone given any thought to what it would cost just a regular american citizen who wants to pay to go into sleaze for a vacation hundred thousand dollars right now i think the lower announced price about ninety or ninety five thousand dollars but everyone expects that as with all other areas of high technology once you enter into service and there's more than one company operating they'll be a great deal of competitive pressure on those prices and they will come down at we all hope fairly quickly found there had been a couple of delegations from our office asking about space to put a large pay for commercial space visit is that still in action i hadn't heard from them for a while now we would be happy to work with their staff there arrange those types of tours and we know they're very inspirational to those who take  he suggests maybe we can do a committee trip to space chair now recognizes the gentleman from pennsylvania mr meyer thank you mr chairman i want to start with dr dillingham the chairman asked dr neil the question about the two to three hundred annual launches that were expected and your testimony dr dillingham you state that if senior f a a official predictions are correct that that is the number or reassess if those numbers turn out to be as we all have said this morning this is an industry in its very beginning stages and it's it's not clear how this is all going to play out in terms of this is a very technical this is new and we've had predictions before you will recall when we talked about the very light jet industry there were going to be thousands in this guy them in the next few years it hasn't turned out to be that way so to the extent that we do get this expansion then again we would say f a a needs to expand as well in order to carry out its mission thank you mr stevens in your testimony you describe some important issues facing the future of u policy such as funding us reusable launch vehicles versus relying on commercial space transportation i was wondering if you could expand upon what you meant by that because you asked a question the difference between the two the funding of u s reusable launch vehicles versus relying on commercial space transportation well i i think the issue is when you're talking about the government program or the consolation program to supply the international space station and the competition that is going on with the commercial companies what we believe is that there is no competition that there are two different programs in fact the one the constellation program is designed to take us out of low or orbit and that's where we need to head the commercial companies will pick up the slack and take care of all the logistical requirements of supplying the international station why i think this is a great way to do business is that if we get to that point where that is happening we will have do to do at least two different rocket systems united states rocket systems supplier international space station and we won't being in the situation we are today by paying fifty thousand fifty million dollars per at u s astronaut to send him up on a on a soviet russian vehicle and something that i read today was also that we will be paying because we have an agreement with other countries european and japanese astronauts will be paying for them too and so i don't see any sort of competition among the both are two separate programs they both both overlap and they're both i think will be very supportive of keeping the united states in the position that it needs to be in the future thank you and mr grayson in response to the last question are you talked about sub orbital would be the place where we would start but then perhaps more thereafter can't be explained with regard to the duration of the flight and when you say we may go beyond suborbital what are we talking about what when what are we looking at flights but because of we're all using the same physics we're all using the same air you know you can it can it can take some time to reach the point where you turn on the rocket engine that varies by system but once you turn on the rocket engine the flight you know typically lasts about half an hour from that point most of that being coming back home through the atmosphere there are certainly are road maps out there and and technological plans out there my own company is among them for how these systems will evolve over time to orbital systems where you can talk about days or weeks or b or longer the likely progression is the human service will begin that you'll begin the a small volume of commercial human spaceflight with capsules on expendable rockets where commercial and government customers might both be users of the same  cherry thank you mr chairman dr neil de states in his testimony of the air force an f a a n t s b have a memorandum of understanding regarding commercial space accidents and incidents and i notice also that mr stevens states that as space launch capabilities have have been developed by other nations u s commercial launches have decreased significantly  mainly because they have government indemnification recommendations you have for improving the competitiveness of the commercial space travel with respect indemnification do you think this is a policy that we should continue yes as was previously mentioned by mr stevens and others we believe that the action by the house to expand the current indemnification process is very appropriate we certainly encourage the senate to act on that however in the long term we think there is merit to looking at a more extended period to allow companies to do long range strategic planning investment and so forth knowing with some certainty what indemnification regime they would be subject to so that would be an excellent example of what the government could do to in order to provide some certainty and support for the industry at the space launch sites that's not going to damage satellites or hurt any of our military slash commercial capabilities to you know communications we work very well together again i mention the partnership with the air  force we have an office at patrick air force base to have a person on the scene and interact on a daily basis with the range there so that we understand the issues i mentioned the common safety standards we also have an excellent relationship with nasa and that will become even more important as the shuttle is retired and various commercial rockets are considered by nasa for their use as well so i think in general the government agencies involved work very well together and we're all looking to industry to try and understand how they can bring their capabilities to the table to support our national interests do you find that  our international competitors i know china is very aggressive in trying to put a put a astronaut on the moon and do you find that there's a lot of international competitiveness  relaying on the decision to that question do you think that we can do a better job of promoting smore engineers into the into the field certainly workforce is a key issue for the entire industry we need to pay attention to that and that's something that you cannot fix immediately it's a long term process to have people studying the math and science and engineering early in their educational process in terms of the international relationships it's interesting because there certainly is a competitive environment in terms of the prices that are being offered by other nations to launch rockets into space many of those countries subsidize the programs and they make it very difficult for our companies to compete but in terms of the sub orbital space tourism industry i think it's generally acknowledged that the united states is in the lead in that particular area for a number of reasons we tend to have a much more innovative population and a corporate culture that is trying these new and different ideas with an advanced technologies and so we've seen more developments more planning more testing in this country than anywhere else i've also been told as i participated in the international conferences that our regulatory regime that congress has put in place in this country is something that  envied frankly to enable us to concentrate on protecting public safety while allowing the acceptance of risk during some of these more dangerous activities that that is something that is not universally shared and companies in other countries frankly would love to have a level playing field as i describe it in terms of how they treat those things your one last question to the panel right now this seems as if it's a millionaires where billionaires endeavor has a bait that the average bob and betty buck guy from ohio might someday climb in a rocket ship and how far away do you think we're at how far away do you think that  is anybody who buys a cell phone or a computer or flat screen t v to put on their wall you know be very thankful that there is all these high net worth early adopters who  pay to bring the volume up on the technology to the point where everybody else can use it i don't think spaceflight is ever going to be even suborbital space flight is ever going to be quite as cheap as air travel is today but you know i can easily see it getting down to the point where at some point in the future and no i'm not going to predict how soon that is because it's too many steps ahead but i can see that getting out of the price of a cruise you know that's not something that's reserved for billionaires  haven't been on a cruise yet so i haven't either but i understand that they they do quite well thank you the chair thanks the gentleman any other members have additional questions if not let me thank the witnesses for testifying here today this is been a very productive and useful hearing our number one priority in this subcommittee is safety and as space transportation and tourism increases in the future we want to make certain that the f a a has the resources to go forward to ensure that space transportation and tourism in fact goes forward and is as safe as it possibly can be so we will be monitoring the activities in space transportation working closely with the f a a and when necessary we will be holding additional hearings and providing aggressive