we have a pretty convincing gender tonight so we did not put on a general view because there's nothing to review i will take an opportunity though to open up for any public comment because we generally require we received notice shortly before the meeting today that this issue has been resolved and withdrawn so at this time was cancel that here was a judicial hearing in move forward with or other agenda items any questions or concerns from counsel any questions or concerns from the pocket but you know we will move on i don't be discussion myers cool overview of timeline and tax cost implications of the project so we do outlaw the answers to those questions in a memo sent out and posted online for viewers to look at we're happy to walk through them and if that would be useful maybe million dollars and i think the community kind of rallied around the design and moved it forward to you in august those are that's in concepts and conceptual concepts so to move forward to financing we need to go through this preliminary engineering  results of that work which is the money allocated at the last meeting are a schematic design so what traditionally is thought of is like a thirty percent design and geotechnical study and a technical cost estimate so that's when we have a better sense of what's in the ground what are the costs associated what's the beginning stages of design to get a more fine tuned cost estimate that can be then be used to go into the financing phases so those are the three major deliverables we'll see in the is outdoor work while it's technically possible we do not recommend it we talked about this a little at the last meeting what that would mean if we fast tracked it would be you know very quick information and decide whether to move it forward and it would really limit the ability to weigh that budgetary impact against other budget discussions it would certainly increase exposure for the project so we wouldn't do the same fine tuned engineering analysis as we would do through the four month process process that they're recommending and therefore if the project in the future could be in jeopardy fast tracking it also doesn't allow us to look for other funding to offset the use of local dollars geotechnical work the thirty percent design following now we enter into a financing phase where we decide as a community how we're going to put the money together for the project likely take a bond vote it's about a sixty five day phase once we get approved  financing approval we will move into design development which is moving those design those engineering plans from thirty percent to one hundred percent designed so all in even the nitpicky details of where pipes are going to go and where tiles going to go and what the insides of the building are going to look like it's that are following the approval of that final design we move into construction documents so the drawings are transferred from an engineering drawings to what the  contractor is going to want to see so so they know what to build onsite but a fifty five day process from there is mean it's quality we clearly have to build out the work so we can are on the streets say here are the design documents for contractors in probably we all know this projects often have to go into winter shutdown so given that the stages that come after preliminary engineering even if we go to a bond in march we will not be under construction next summer because we would still have to get through that design documents construction documents and bidding documents if we were to fast track that and say we could get to construction documents in october and want to and want to enter forward with the primary engineering as approved go through spend take upon vote sometime in the spring spend the spring and summer do going through the design development and construction phase design development and construction documents process in summer and in eighteen prepare to bid out the work in the fall or early winter of eighteen to prepare for a nineteen construction season start with a pool opening  beginning of the twenty twenty summer which i know is very disappointing but i think it's realistic and hearing schedule and then a final question kind of question posed was what are the overall cost implications of the project so we have presented the gentleman now insists on that again we're using the very high level construction process meant we currently have and so assuming a four point four million dollars project which is what we estimated as part of operating cost to run the once it's opened we're looking at about nine cents in pack to the tax rate so that's about a two hundred twenty dollar bill increase for a two hundred twenty five thousand seats but obviously for the public too so there's really understanding of what is going to unfold the really hard part about this is that there's there's something this is a good reminder i think in something that we should come back to time and time again and have very present in any kind of conversations we have about this would be a staff be a pool community members which one of knowledge we came out of nowhere it's one that we knew we were going to have to have but it's one we got spurred into by a situation where it just wasn't feasible the very the more but i mean i do appreciate that there has been effort to put this into the correct timeline because i think we need to be honest and say in the past we've had some issues in being really clear on what the timeline would look like from the public have to move in i think we've said a couple different things throughout this process and i don't think any of us are very happy about that either side of this room or in those chairs and it's very good to see something like this that i think we can  alternative forms of funding and there was quite a bit of discussion around from raising in whether or not there is grant and purpose or other participants or the funds from other sources that my observations on a statewide recall that will be coming up next cycle is two thousand eighteen i believe that caps out at one hundred thousand dollars per per project so not a small amount of money but certainly not that amount of money that's going to this thing across the finish line i absolutely if we're still moving in this direction a top point expect that we would apply for that funding again as with a grant it's not a guarantee but i think we have a competitive project we're there to that that's the funding source that built this pool back in the seventy's so there's something interesting history there too certainly from a fundraising perspective there is a pink and top a tape and a willingness on the part of the committee and i hope i speak for you guys and let me throw tomatoes point seven was the number we were working around that's a huge left out for a volunteer group and so i think there's again i appreciate that i wish and i think there's a reality there too that that's a that's a fairly small stretch and i just one quickly say to we're going to ask just a few questions of staff to kind of set the table a bit and we will be opening this up so you'll obviously live opportunities to certain note of the time so we've certainly had some discussions with jeff myers he is cameras and has a foundation that has been established already it's been i can remember when mike if you remember when that was established in a number of years later the whole purpose of the foundation is to raise funds in support of the miners pool  there is some money enough foundation at this point again not a huge amount but jeff has been very willing to be part of the conversation plan you know piano that it's it's a lot of little that's not a position that it's you know i think comply and not imply that we would do that work i think the conversations that had kind of been running around was that there might be a separate fund raising group set up in the summer if there's any formalized progress on that in terms of no i think another piece and again feel free to correct me if i'm off point with this for the committee members i think there's been a general acknowledgement amongst that group that the group that carried the project to the point where i live is a different group than the project their group that's going to carry the f peace for it's not to say there's not some overlap there but i think sure generally the skill sets and frankly in some ways the time and interest levels two of the committee members is different and i think the folks who've been with us to be in some cases have been contacts bertino i think cindy and just in particular who i would buy a brownie for sure but you know i think it is a it's a different skill set we've been fortunate carolyn smith has brought her father in law who's got some fundraising background and to sort of do some informal advising and consulting with us which has been super helpful but beyond that i think we're going to definitely come in knowledge and there's a need to to look at i think another i think another potential timeline to explore from myself reading this is how long it would take to get our numbers reasonably hard means council but you know i think what what i would want to see from that conversation is us giving for lack of better word though a number that says you know to be realistic about what we think we can afford and what we think from a municipal tax base growth standpoint what we can sustain with this community will actually support i i think i think that's something that you need to talk about is that there's a number to say alternative funding needs to be this percentage of the project and understand how long it would take to get through that process both in understanding within the the but also and how engineering if we think we might be going in that direction we should ask the engineers to give us estimates of cost escalations over a year or two you know i think often when you do construction cost estimates here you're estimating them in this construction season with an escalator and you know market based escalator for the next construction season they can do that and a few it's harder when it gets out five or ten and we can certainly ask questions sampson to look at that i so we we don't get into trouble of saying ok it's three point eight million dollars now and we're actually building it three years later and that three point eight is now new material so thank you very much for doing this  construction could not begin next summer anyway and so the recommendation is to have a different vote on a different date later in the spring once the preliminary hearing process is concluded that correct so think you know in one step probably tax increases very significant and i wonder whether the scenarios that were discussed by the pool committee never really touched on and at this this level of analysis that says if it's a four point four million dollars project and includes estimated upgrading costs of this that's going to translate into a tax rate impact of this because what feels to me may have happened is people got really excited about different conceptual drawings  tag but that's a very abstract figure and a lot of energy around fundraising but i wonder at this point is there an ability to know what are we willing to let go of if any to get it to a ballpark of and one of the contingency plans if we have a million dollar fund raising goal you know and i'd be interested in a structured conversation with the pool committee and the engineering team around the intersection between choices and tax rate impact so i would say i don't how that interacts with the timing and yeah i don't have all the different options committed to memory in terms of what those price times were we looked ugly to the different options and those varied a fair bit in terms of the high level cost estimate number i want to say the low was two point eight and the high was like a little over five so we did see quite some fairly different design options i think while we were really trying to do is not start a value in g or any process too early because i think the concern also if you were as i think my concern trying to guide the process was that if we start with a conversation of how cheap can we do this thing i think you don't give yourself and he will go down without really compromising the quality of the product that the other day i think the other piece that the committee will try to do is get to a design that reflected what they heard as the community wanted wanted and so i think that four point four while it landed sort of in the middle to slightly above right yeah yeah one i think i think that's sort of in my opinion the next phase of this conversation we now have a ballpark that we're in and i think it does become a key question and the whole you know the willingness or ability to shoulder the necessarily i also feel though that we did throughout the course of the project talk about all the high level what the impact would be at one point i think we threw out a number of two twenty five that we like back of a napkin and based on a let's get to the end of the portion of this project that we were tasked with which is coming out with a design right i just wonder you know when you say have a conversation with the community about whether they're willing to pay that but you know it's a range of options before the engineers get too far down the road spec'ing out that project that's just a thought or action a new could you could start with a obviously it changes throughout the year of those we pay down the principal but especially in the first few years it looks to be between seventy and eighty percent of that tax impact would be zero debt service with about a quarter twenty five percent of the being on annual operating costs which is you know between two and two and a half cents would be tax impact for annual operating costs so i think really if we're looking at what is the biggest component of that tax impact is the debt service on that and depending on what the number of the city would have to fall on to i mean that i feel like is the principal discussion around financially what this means for a community sitting in looks like i mean regardless the tax impact for annual operating costs is going to be roughly what it's going to be and really the opportunity for  in what that looks like so i it i wouldn't i wouldn't take her you know our this is really committed to seeing this project through i think but there's always there's always the we have to put this up for a vote and so when we say if it's always contingent upon the voters give us the green light to say yes i  smoothly and voters approved and we move forward with the design sexually just plan and buying the whole project i'm pretty confident that timeline outlined if we are changing some of those cool posts and saying ok we're going to move forward from here in january we're going to get harder now her counsels and going to set a goal of it with in this hard number this is what we're willing to raise the roof on those community can you raise the rest otherwise that's not that timelines not factored into this process so no i think answering some of these questions are coming up tonight could potentially change the timeline of this process in terms of who is leading the effort so and i'm also new to this  conversation i think that it's being jointly led i think there is a lot of community work that has gone into this through the community pool committee and we certainly don't want to lose that active involvement however i do think it has shifted to engineering work for it so from a very kind of technical professional manner and so i have that that's what we are now leading forward what i was referring to earlier about fund raising that is work i feel like we need to step out of it and look to the community to do certainly to the extent that the pool committee continues to meet the step the city will be at the table for those discussions and if there is solely a fund raising boards stood up we would ask to be invited middle of mark's about march thirteenth as per their schedule so then assuming that comes to the council then we have notice period required for a bond so if we're going straight from a cost estimate to bond no intermediate discussions about other funding i then yes there are potentially lots of other discussions yeah and that's based on the time limits presented here with these additional questions that we have about funding and that would be just running a straight line number for  ask is that it sounds like the behavior which is going to have to come from the taxpayers at least the at the initial point of it because you can't start a project of this size you can't drop the ball for two billion dollars and then at the end of two billion dollars wait for fundraising to come in to be able to finish so it sounds like the major lift is going to have to come from the taxpayer regardless now whether the fund raising is a pay down method or how that money is used for really there's a there's a new word committee formed or there was a band that sounds like a people is having a conversation about who would like to fundraise but that's really where that sat at this juncture ok and if you know there's not like an advanced infrastructure and some of the quotes and say that it's it's also not like you know we can say hey have have two million dollars by there's just there's no it sounds like to me there's no foundation really to work from in this case for that  well in that regard i also am concerned about folding clothes and shoes and typically that's not a great time of year to get folks to turn out the vote  question maybe you're trying to ask is if we've gone for giving really too much interest but if we bought for four million dollars and only need two million dollars because we raise another two million dollars tell me take out less i don't believe just trying to because logistically speaking there's just no viable way without having a committee are welcome want to have two hundred thousand dollars already established ones will work without having all that already pretty done i just don't see a viable way to get met i think the way to do what you're suggesting is to front load the fund raising or delay the bond of two we know the funds we've raised and therefore you're taking out the last and bond de numbers of electric water chemical kind of the utility type pieces we took what has been our traditional staffing expense for the pool that's been a contract and escalated got basically by fifty percent early i think we're looking at some realities in the face too in terms of timelines so one of the make sure we're we're mindful of the decisions that actually need to be made in the timeline and those decisions because that's that's not on here i mean it is there's guidance on that but we have to decide what those decisions which march are are and how we're going to proceed i guess  the engineering pieces to get the ball rolling so the decision point is number one that's what we're going to talk about all of these guys to have an opportunity think about that because really the decision is going to be are we going to push to have this a ballot and is this number acceptable or do we want to see this number adjusted and that's what i see is the primary questions in front of us that there's a time line president here it's not necessarily the timeline that has to be accepted that something to make anybody happy to hear but there could be a possibility of us having a conversation about what the benchmark we think from a funding perspective is reasonable giving time for there to be some fill in funding funding finish line by the beginning of may then we will be in two thousand and twenty one everybody shaking their head and the you know the additional issue with that is stuff doesn't stay the same doesn't cost the same yeah and rates and materials all those things change so in our numbers move a little bit think it's a little you know back and they can play and they're being said it wouldn't be such an around the main street project contemplation too but it's there is it's not a prior visitation between those two that has not been a conversation that's been had here by any means and it's not something that we've seen from the i we've covered it through public meetings i mean there's there's a lot of information out there about it so i will own progress in the entire thing but part of the question we've had we've got a lot infrastructure issues on main street is to because there's access state and federal funding right now that we don't think is going to be around and there's a lot of interest in investing in it where we could get really good deal in terms of return of beyond conversation this speed has been more over pressed from the outside frankly from the state and federal funds who are saying we don't know if this is going to be around for very long or forever so that's something that you want to look at but neighborhoods and i would extend that as being something that's included in there i know it was talked about during some of those public meetings we just had the initial overview of the development strategic plan in didn't touch on it and  sure yeah i mean and that's i mean we had kind of heard when this whole conversation started that this was a tougher thing to follow i call it magic money for you know it's a tougher thing for magic money because  i think a lot of state or federal funders look at it as i don't and i know that there's a lot of value to it nobody's question that but they'll use the word like is that necessary and we were having a commute conversation about it i'm not sure where the mix of people is where the right mix is first of these pieces of this conversation but it seems to me that there's there are so tradeoffs that are going to  those are but it seems to me we have to be able to get some information about that pretty soon so that we can all be on the same page around what's possible in a six month period because then i think the discussion of twenty twenty opening using priority then there has to be a discussion around what features are we willing to compromise on and and and maybe you know what is it that we can bomb for that we can you know bid and build in time for two thousand and twenty and then have a fundraising supplement in terms of features i don't know what makes i don't know anything about pools but i don't know what makes sense in terms of what you can do a little later i don't want to be in a position like rather where we have a pool and they're bringing in like mobile homes for changing rooms for a new title i don't think that's what anybody wants but we need to be around you know number one what are some reasonable realistic fundraising targets and a time frame for those if if if that is the decision is w with the community said they want but we're going to need to be clear with them that means it's not going to happen until twenty twenty one then that's fine you know but we all just need to be really really clear about where the tradeoffs are because clear that most of us on this side are committed to moving this project so i just i need to be clear that i don't want to see another set of lag in the action because  even if we're going to be delaying the project there is a lot of discussion and decision that needs to be made around the music be communicated clearly communicated clearly and i think you're absolutely right we should have had this conversation  this discussion back in you know closer to august and getting some of this clinton era funding to do that here where i would just say i don't want us to look at the work that will be done engineering work  know i think two we've got a lot of work to do with the public just general i think people need to recognize we've raised taxes one point two percent one point four percent twenty nine point seven percent over the last several years and kept the city moving forward in accomplish some pretty tremendous things  doing that very frankly and i'm not sure that we've done that in a massively fiscally responsible way and we've done so trying to prep people that we knew that there were some infrastructure expenditures coming down the line and we h pushed these humans as hard as we can possibly push them and asked them to do way more than is reasonable and push frankly we're still out of balance in terms of sanity i'm sure and we need to have a really clear conversation with the community about what that looks like going forward what impact this asked now that there's a good number and make sure that it's really well that this doesn't work if it goes forward and it falls apart from a matter of public lack of understanding of the financial impact in an understanding of what the investment is so i don't know those i don't want to leave ask and i want to be really clear that it's then minutes sacrifice not only on behalf of the public but also frankly on behalf of the people we have around the city and we need to be really really stick about the impact on service that  has the long term in the long run and if that wasn't said at some point that would be responsible not to because that's a reality it will all need to have very much in from our faces because it's it is important it is something we've  or two years it's a twenty year bond so it's all that we're really really clear about that with that in mind i think what might be good for us is to have a conversation us having those conversations between now and you're going to talk about over turkey but the first meeting in december to see if there's any chance there can be some kind of communing in those folks you know to have a conversation about what seems reasonable from a timeline perspective and maybe to walk through this with those people that we've already defined as fundraisers and walk through this town and explain it and instead of us telling them maybe have them also give some feedback to us about what is that's a great question for the community and i mean i'm i'm putting this out here to you folks are sitting here today and i think the key is this city really can't fund race i mean i think we can provide that information that material we can the yeah i think that's definitely a conversation that we can have from a community that i know i'm happy to have as a community member about what might make sense of that i think from the capacity of the council or staff kind of jumping into that in a would be good for us to have a structural conversation about what the timeline looks like from our perspective and what that is from sixteen point the and the other thing that i think needs to happen is that needs to be brought back here in this group needs to put it frankly before people go off and do that have a pretty firm understanding from that move what we're asking people to do with the implications are that in terms of our future commitments to and that's where this gets dicey right because you know this is a body that quite frankly could change it and it could change by three and march potentially and that's you know i think that's really important that we're speaking to right now as community members for not giving we're not giving marching orders we're not giving we're not building the infrastructure around those efforts what happens in that kind of venue is is is outside of us what's been expressed is that there's interest in doing from raising and there's capacity to do that and that could in some way help the pool come to completion giving the community an opportunity to do that is i think what we're worse i think that would make i think to combat to council at a specific date and present us with what they believe is a realistic timeline which will inform artist questions around  light enough sometimes you just know committees working and you wish you could tell them all and you wish you could you know know every detail about where everybody is but you do lose track in that but that's that's totally on me  that's not even on this body they haven't had the opportunity to see something like this or have seen that was demanded so i appreciate that simple simulants but i also apologize that i think from my seat this should have been pushed harder we're going to work really hard to make sure that's not in this is given the full light of day and that we stay on schedule and have very productive straightforward conversations going forward in and again we're we're sorry for your frustration because i think some of it's very warranted  to and so just to be really clear to when that information comes back i think what we're talking about then is is going to be about the comfort level of that may deadline and pushing t towards that and so i think from an informational standpoint continuing to hash that those details and information on the background that i mean it sounds like years of i've kind of done that you're set up to do that i think the other the other thing that we should just kind of poke at and again the limited resources i know are gearing up for a budget between now and then if we can is also take a look at what the secondary timeline would look like just so we're ready to have that conversation if it if it's there if we come back and have this community conversation or other people say we can't raise any money between now and then or we couldn't get a group together it is where it is and we're not comfortable moving forward and we need especially at the sophistication that we're talking about of putting a dent into something like this so i think what would be good to hear back is what that looks like and if there is capacity there and with those knowns in unknown's and i won't i won't say anything more about fundraising i think there might be people out there that might have an idea of how to address the fact that there's an uncertainty at a couple other levels of the layers there's there's ways that that might be able to be addressed i guess is what i've seen in fundraising but i do appreciate that the reality is going to be that we're not going to make any kind of decision today  council and start showing us checks that are piled up and all it's you know what is the putting together what a fundraising plan would look like as this engineering work is going to really hit the ground one running what does make sense to start those asks and also