the well i can sort of just throw out you made a realize you didn't get the transportation plan or chapter from me and i apologize for that i've really been struggling with trying to trying to tie it all together and say when i take it out i think all right less is good and then i think about it more and i don't like it so i can show you what i have spent we might not want to spend a lot of time  might want to give me a little bit more time on it's really up to you housing i think we can do i don't feel like it be a bad idea to go through the survey but if we have it it might take a little while to digest it if it were on the agenda what i would do is read it again and again and again and sort of make know what things we hear what seem to be question may think it's completely different than when i'm thinking about it  i just think it's any city it's an entire two hours easily to talk about it catherine how some of the action from your side like if we were to do so we you know means or go we sort of mapped out our course of action through this season thinking that you know we're going to be come september  are we on track or merely yeah i think i think we we can have this actually on the agenda tell the next meeting or maybe even the meeting after i think the next meeting might have been in natural resources maybe then it does make sense also some of them might be here for the next meeting so i'm ok with putting it on i do think though that that whether we do it tonight or in two weeks we're conclusion is in my mind as i'm reading through it again yeah i mean the big thing really was what do we do with the commercial district so a lot of other questions and that isn't just him plan future zoning questions as well will form a greater discussion ok so i mean that's that's what i thought too that yeah this is you know sort of born out of the right are trying to figure out what to do be honest i don't remember exactly what we put on hold saying let's wait for the survey but i had coffee i think part of the where we were talking about when we started with land  that was certainly one of the things where we said go back to the survey and while we did get a lot of responses i'm not entirely sure that three hundred people should necessarily completely change what we do i think it's very important to look at what they said here but it wasn't in the beginning we certainly had a lot of participation that it kind of petered out  yeah and i think you know as we dive into it more and maybe you are able to pull out some feed that might help us but the way it will play into the plan is a full scale change but you know this survey seemed to indicate some concern about this valuing this as a put and saying that we need to study it more which i know you've been studying and studying a lot of the commercial district but it might this might not be the one thing that makes the change so there then only just from my experience in the past when we've done things like th other towns it's been an indicator of dissatisfaction let's move ahead in this area but it doesn't always say that this is the right thing to do immediately or s end the end to make that decision yeah i mean certainly if we had three hundred people say one thing right but maybe it's just if we wait two weeks and maybe catherine you can take a look because we haven't given you enough to do and or maybe even send us an e mail telling us what are really the key questions we should be looking shirt i mean and i think sometimes the tendency is to spend too much time looking at the comments and but i'm fine with the only thing is if that's what people want to do with and should be done i got the ok from time to go ahead with the idea in theory right right yeah well so if we're paying the end which i have changed and that should show up because i didn't underline and i just cross things out like manually you know just for example like this red and that crossed out is something haven't seen yet  but other than that you know looking at this the housing inventory i added the two thousand and ten two thousand and thirteen figures that the way that the sort of the way that the census is working now is a little bit different since since two thousand and ten they've been focusing more and the one to three year one to five year surveys which get a lot more information from people but the figures aren't quite as per say it's because it's it's not a census of everybody which families from twenty ten to twenty thirty and it's gone down to seventy forty two of three to do you attribute that to more like the margin of error or do you attribute that to multiple families have been converted into  that's the two thousand and ten is this goes to everybody but then there's actual palette and that but them they're one to five year surveys go out varying amounts of people  and it depends on going to respond to they get back to but they also depending on the population they can't get as much their margin error of it is too big for that for this local area to do so again it would be more helpful i think if they could have it more often because then you could maybe do some averages and stuff but because our population this now we're only going to get every five years but so this so looking back historically i think i couldn't separate out some of a single family from the multifamily so i just put it as one category and i can get that some of that for a later date so if that helps us back to the original question of how many multifamily dwellings are there actually well well it says for drawing units this is that is for new dwelling units right to me but here it was the number of permits for the new regional planning commission do and the town just changed something significantly over the last three years to get density and the survey talked a lot about affordability you would think if we lestat will be coming out in june so what we have now is good but what will happen june is better so so we can update it and what we have here little it doesn't make sense to me to have two sets of figures that don't now match it's hard to make conclusions yes just scary thing yeah i think if if we're somehow forced to what you already wrote which was that we've done a lot of things last couple of years to get through the big th so when the this last plane was written it was really new lot right so you've changed your zoning and nothing's happened you can say oh we need to change zoning more or you could say nobody knows that we have this cool thing and the economy was terrible you know better i can look at what so one other thing i just want to point out and that this is a change that i i mean this housing target section i think should just be removed it was in his years old it's  encouraging the elderly housing that kind of thing versus specific numbers that towns have to achieve  and i think they continue to refine that and i think they're talking more about now having access for people to affordable homes so you know if people have a lower income and they can't drive and this is just being picky about one point one point one point one development shouldn't be capitalized when i don't have anything constructive to say or look at the grammar it's so do we have the structure of that now that you're saying that you know maybe it is a bit like thirty nine dollars or is a no no it's a lot and it's more it is you know is it significant enough that a developer would change their plan based on the somebody is going to focus on and we can say you get these three three readings done and you know really make a difference then and thinking about still always wanting to make it shorter which i think is a really really goal because otherwise you get that would make an i think just move actually probably given what he does to probably comment better but from the developers perspective i think the biggest obstacle and the biggest cost is simply time it's not the complain because they don't like this that or the other thing and they're just going to hold it up for two years that there's significant disincentive then to develop and there's a significant cost added to the construction actually a lot of people  off probably is rather than wait probably well that could be another strategy but you're saying skip i mean if you guys think that no one's going to give a damn about this well i mean developer i mean i think of time here in jericho do we know is is there are things really slow and what does expedited mean because frequently when you hear expedited i activity and so it's often a double process that you all have to go through and which doesn't happen if you have just a single family home that larger projects have to go through ball and people more complain about act there's you know as we've discussed there are some underlying restrictions to higher density bellman and some of that stuff available melanie water and sewer in places and in time i mean i can speak from personal experience had nothing to do with the town it was a state environmental court not anybody can come in to complain but the d r v still is committed to forty five days of the decisions like go the two clever thing that i just sort of became aware of this in some zoning districts assessor the apartments are considered conditional uses and they have to go before the dear i think for be interesting i kind of understand it if you're talking about a more worldly area you're trying to control growth but if we're trying to also encourage affordable housing sensory apartments are a good tool i don't know if that's something to think about is right that would speed up that kind of development if it could be just a permitted use as opposed to actual yeah and senior housing development is conditional but you're also height or floor area of the existing two allowing for an increase in the dimensions of the parking area well to be perfectly honest i'm not sure why we considered that conditional is from districts and  and i mean that the language is conditional use approval shall be required for an accessory apartment located in the agricultural forestry rural residential or commercial district if the creation of an excess reoccur and requires one or more of the following a new excess restructure an increase in height or floor area of the existing two welling where an increase in the dimensions of the parking area so that's if you're like going to go up a story going to third story on your house and turnin middle ground between courage and making it easier but not letting most of the posters slap her right over the season like let's ease it without making it a free for all and see how it goes if you care about those expanded footprint things care about right everywhere apartments permitted all districts  i'm encouraged developers to take advantage of the sentence now in place something we don't really need so i think a good developer knows them i'm not quite sure how you would do that t i mean it doesn't hurt to have it in but one of the things that i know and this is more specific to our village centers that there there are incentives that go with being a part of it you know having that village center designation yeah but i think it does tie into the first one because that some people might not be aware that they can be they can have priority in some of those incentives i mean it really is a developer going to come in and say i'd like to build affordable housing i have no idea how and then it's up to the town to say well there are these groups out here to me that doesn't seem like something that's going to happen so come you know we would host you for the review of the town something you might be interested in what would it take i mean it's like a business development role so if the town really wanted to do more i mean i think that's how i would like cities get away years and get stuff however that said our survey like a big chunk of people said don't we don't have the inclination we don't have the motivation we'll do the only reason i question this is there just isn't a lot of publicly owned property that's appropriate and so yeah i mean  yeah i think where in some sense is mandated by the state to at least make it easier so whether or not people the town  like if you like the best in many situations you know the different range is the rental property you differentiate the building you have a ten unit building and two of them charge less ground for so community break so we might want we might need more guidance so to make sure that that if that's the kind that we get the kind of affordable housing that  still that me so that doesn't the right problem right but there's two different but yet you remember the old right trying to articulate this well so for lousing like what are you talking about talk about the four story wood framed buildings it's filled with six section eight people at the end one eighty nine and shelburne road or are you talking about two bedroom small clustered douses or are you talking about condos that are right because they're more affordable i think but we were talking about the legal definition which is that you're not spending more than thirty  property and when there's no turning to make money and there's no room to do it you can't put a seventy in the building anywhere here seventy percent what's interesting though is what i'm seeing out there in the workplace that that dynamic that we're considering affordable you know it's maybe it's not going to be sixty units maybe it's twenty four units or maybe it's open only townhouses at the end of the day which is you know or have an appeal to them which you know i think we have to look at that picture and see you know fit  it does make it a reality but it's a very targeted group of developers or groups who are going to want to do that right i mean that's how the housing from on that's that's their economic model is they sell off they sell off tax incentives that's how they charge yeah i don't think you're now you know in that village center designation comes with something like i was saying before some some benefits and that that's mostly in the form of gran it you know somehow you can change the zoning to make it you know you get so many units and a smaller parcel that but i mean when make it can make it work you can do things like ok if you demographics changing it's like i don't want all that space i don't want all that stuff i want a lot of bus line i want to be walkable and i'm twenty five and i have a great job in burlington and i just want to spend a reasonable amount of for two hundred eighty grand there's a couple of developers in vermont that are that are playing with a micro unit where they're talking about you know what you would call efficiency units you know radio yesterday took tiny condos and we're talking like you know six hundred eight hundred square feet or so there are some even smaller where it's just the most you know the most the tiniest of needs are met there are basically you know a toilet kitchenette and  and i think there's we're back to your point susan there's you know maybe we could explore expanding the discussion about that as it's not just about that legal legal definition of a part of all that you know trying to and i'll be honest and strategy one point two point two i don't think i know what the neighborhood is is that i've heard program you know that that should i think just get crossed out that could change in the future so we could keep it  end i think we are there are members of the other goals other strategies for housing we only have two high density zoning or yeah yeah i think it's a strategy i'm not saying then you guys have to do that oh yeah i mean madison saying we should do it i think it's that it's one of the things on the table strategy one point one point three consider expansion the high density zone or any of the you know we have tiered zoning districts and if you move each t so do you change some of that ground strays to one acre to encourage more settlement along there do you not i was thinking hard to be really really smart to me to closely monitor this is a five to ten year plan or whatever what happens in riverside over the next five years like does it work and to monitor all the zoning the density increases that have already happened because what would be the point of making creasing density over and over and over again no matter what you do nothing ever happens waiting to see what happens and i would personally see how does that work before applying that to lots of other areas especially since a lot of the residents said they like the  yapping it's almost like if you constrain the density you have a better chance of actually getting higher density if you love higher density everywhere you just get a little bit more than halfway through everywhere and the house here and house here and here and you yes that's that's how i read another guy and not so perhaps then under the strategy one point four point four is think about increased density bonuses for affordable and our senior housing and implementation under that so do we want a strategy under element of affordability is you know and it really does fit into i think are our goals but be the younger people they don't want or the old people that don't want the big house but just want smaller housing but that that often in every issue it could just be another bullet after there's that homeownership and then there's the rental housing so maybe just  you know if they want to call it small housing it's got to be a good term for that what about like within that in the main paragraph housing affordability you know maybe just add a little description about the kinds of households that tend to be have died median or less the median level might be you know really bring a lot of benefit to the community general has a lot going for it as a great looking really convenient commuting location good schools burlington right right where i'm moving into essex like in the five corners and getting the tiny little house not to walk everything in five years time or i mean i don't know but we have a bus a commuter bus now which we never had t so do we want another paragraph in here or is what we're saying something that isn't unique to jericho and therefore doesn't need to be said to the whole concept i don't know i think it's going to be ending creasing need and i think it's junior senior housing or sometimes i think both and i think that it's more obvious to say senior but that i think the other and you know i think yeah i mean realistically though probably younger people want to live in burlington to burlington is not cheap either you know driving sound right really expensive and the younger if you could figure out a way to address those people if i've got those extra strategies and goals did we want something else in the tax thing to do with the suggestion or are you just tossing out i guess i don't have the specific language but i you know and i don't think it needs to be more than a couple sentences but i think it would be good to consider you know have it there is a concept to consider i agree there is some way to get made two hundred thousand is micro units and they're not just talking about low income i'm not talking about senior hasn't been talking about meeting the needs of the people with student loans people that are trying to start a career right right so you know i know the state is trying to start some programs where they're trying to keep college students here in the state and the whole idea is if you grow the brain trust the people that are you know are outside of the service industry from a career standpoint they can make the jobs here and so secondary to that is the development of incubator spaces where they're trying to you know the silicate the growth of the businesses in the people to develop of that so i don't know i mean that said is there anything in our plan that would facilitate such and such piece of the community i don't know i don't really think the economic development anything where that fits in you any of those if that's like what the future is for regions in vermont that are going to be successful townships that are going to successful does that something we want to try to you know incorporate  that college student who took on a lot of debt and needs to you know be financially responsible living for the first few many years of the career and you know that if we could fill that  development and it's hard to same what what comes first to people they can't afford to live here there's no work here with which is right it's a chicken egg theory and you know you can how do you get to it back if you think about it from  you have to do that with so i mean i know and it's very simple to know for sure but try and find a building block for less than one hundred thousand dollars or if it's less than that then you still have to put in a w are some more we could do and maybe other other property owners in those areas need to be open to doing that and our district for it to happen right yeah and what kind of resistance i mean is there going to be a lot of resistance to it i wonder to what do we want which is a ten really going to want to make it really difficult for any to build anything so back to what you want to get very general terms i think a lot of this stuff we're very skids a frantic yes we're very very schizo friend if we want sidewalks walkability all this stuff but we rural community so we want to do we want to south into burlington or do we want rural country roads too we want high density all this other stuff but we want to keep the family farm we want to keep all the several look half an hour ago about looking at the boundary lines right if you take that village to village center lines here there's only so much development that can take place here and density can take place inside that boundary line so if you step it out slightly you can get more density is that a good thing or is that a bad thing why would you step out now before all the densities before and like manhattan before you before you have built what you got full well it isn't it isn't and you have to wait for i mean essentially have to generationally right you have to wait for like a bunch of people to die in those houses and a bunch of the houses up there in the center to sell to a new owner who is more open to putting another house in their backyard or condos in their backyard or whatever they think of it i don't know so you're saying  way yeah well maybe i mean right it i'm simply saying is as a strategy if you want to get more housing that's high density you can expand the area that is that that makes sense or maybe areas where it doesn't make sense you know you keep your what you're referred to as it was at pratt road right across from the fire station is a half of that road is like quarter record zoning and the other side of the street for yeah yeah and i think i can take a little whack at the survey too maybe trying to pull out some key questions or themes that we might focus on because i  do think we started the lead good so maybe that wasn't the right thing to do first but that's a really crucial piece maybe it makes sense to do some of the other sections first because then we're thinking about the week and i know they wanted to talk about this but i think they just wanted to talk a little bit generally too but it seemed like they thought they'd have something in hand at that discussion so i think of it at the next meeting but what if we focus on the survey and if we can try to come to some general conclusions of where we can plug some of the facts back in and i can wild bunch it was all made up anyway i mean i hear what you're saying that it's nice to have that information but does that really belong in the town planning report unless we're really responding to it by saying ok we have these stuff so we're going to mandate cars on  i don't care it doesn't matter to me every day you be fine with sticking to wednesday and then moving into tuesday starting august or i could go back and change my items would not have a deal it's mine either i only have two more