good morning appeals to court on this rainy day rob gosling from trade pacific here today on behalf of ms at a try union for collin process and this appeal challenges congress' means understand but specifically how did they calculate the value of the of the white shrimp the white shrimp in this case were not used by congress but the county lation is they look for certain values and surrogate countries and take those values wherever they might be from publicly available information and apply those that understand all that but i'm just what are they values the shrimp are used the  black shrimp right are correct and that's your objection but what was the the basis for the not know the i'm looking to what the details of the calculation of work were various sizes of shrimp identified specific shrimp costs in specific size categories for black tiger shrimp so they just assume that the black shrimp crossed in the white shouldn't cost would assume that what they did in this case that is the exact assumption value normal value based on the factors of production using the best available information regarding the valuation those factors in a market economy country or countries so it looking at the factors of production why was it not reasonable for congress to also on the ultimate prices but record evidence demonstrates in this case that species of the shrimp also has incredible important impact on the cost of the product in our joint appendix we provide the data from that same exact study that congress used that show that on average prices for white venom a shrimp in indonesia are were fifteen percent lower than comparable size so different in zero argument today's your argument today that what congress should have comparable economy that right commerce department did not deem indonesia to be on its list of comparable circuit producers but the law does not stop with just that the law says that we should use the best available information for valuing the factors of production and determining which country they should use as a surrogate country commerce should used to the extent possible countries that are in economic level of no violent comparable to vietnam that separate factor valuation methodologies for the white and black trim and what do you contend that they should have down here i think they should have done the exact same either way you know from that they were no suggest that they do they don't need to do anything your honor because the reality is that there are there is no need to have white trim in those particular sizes white shrimp grows in smaller sizes than black tiger shrimp and the finish white products that are produced are predominantly and almost entirely in the smaller sizes the lack of the smaller size white them a different is not an obstacle recognised as a comparable economy correct now it's like this time it was at indonesia was not recognised as one of the six primary countries under consideration for determining what should be the primary surrogate country but just because a country is not on that list does not mean its data is not useful again commerce has departed from the primary spirit country in this case a clarifiers more calculations an extrapolation when you're trying to use and take data from a country that's not a comparable economy and apply it to this particular economy with respect i don't think there's any difference in the calculation for the extra relation necessary they could the indonesian white van may cost exactly the same way as they used to play that it does the whole exercise of trying to identify comparable economies as is a useless exercise not useless at all to them why do they surely will so why do they do it the law requires commerce it directs them to the extent possible to use values in a surrogate country that has an economic development comparable but the primary goal is to search for the best available information and the best available information must be defined as what is most products specific most contemporaneous tax exclusive representative of a broader market average and that value might not be in the primary server country in this case commerce in fact after in this very appeal commerce after to remain decided that it would depart from the primary search country and value labor cost using india as agreed to by both of the  product you cannot produce a finished good with material inputs that do not go into that and if you want to value that production you need to start with the actual inputs that go into that production what  percentage of the inputs here larger size white i would say probably less than five percent and the white from sizes in the black from sizes it was more like thirty three percent fifty percent about fifty percent of both men occur on it's all about half and half white and black and you submit any evidence on indonesia's level of economic development we do not have any  information on indonesia's level of economic development but once again who was asking whether you had cement no no we did not and that's an important consideration in picking a surrogate country right it's important it's the quintessential  important point in picking the primary surrogate country but it is not an important point or worse nobody tries to pick king to limit as much as it can all the different factors to one country all things being equal if congress is faced with a choice between equally comparable circuit values that are equally contemporaneous equally products specific that are taxed to serve the oath represent a broad market average commerce wants to pick to extrapolate and to guess and to put on this black tiger cost or to use white van macaw step on the record from indonesia that represent the exact same size the exact same silly zones present the exact same products used that were produced from those size inputs is significant substantial i would say and and for commerce to basically that that may be true but there is still missing data for the larger wh so even under your theory what they'd have to use the black children as a substitute for the larger size of white trim and a minimum comma should use question zillah they would have to make a decision they'd have to say what is better to yes because the record demonstrates that there is a significant price difference between white and black species and just assigning and extrapolate a lot cost as opposed to an extrapolated white cost you still would get a better match were missing and the indonesian data that is a significant percentage that information is confidential but is on page fourteen of our brief and can you give us a range that wouldn't be no joke not really your honor but it  brief and then to go off of that as well what was also missing with indonesian data as congress explained on page twenty three fifteen of the record twenty three thirty seven was that not only was there no information on the record  and calmer simply explained that basically any gains in accuracy from trying to combine these different sources of data it was basically just missing in any information as to whether indonesia on this record was economically comparable and country west and that's it page twenty three zero eight of the record but more importantly none of the parties submitted information to the record for congress to consider indonesia as a primary search country and as a council represented none of the parties actually review indonesia was the primary surrogate country and that information had been placed on the record by the parties and one of the vital pieces of information is the gross national income and again not only was that not on this record about indonesia but there was no information about financial statements there was no information about the surrogate value of labor and that's obviously important when you're trying to calculate the value of russia and how is it being produced and what is the constant to produce that value of russia and again analysis as to why a source of information was better than the other and here they were both congress said these are both imperfect choices they're both missing information bangladesh's missing white van in my prices indonesia is missing the two largest count sizes which are very well there shrimp but then also the factors of production for that shrimp if you're using indonesian data for shrimp then you would need to look at to the extent possible financial statements as well as the cost of labor and all of that was missing that at one point one hundred of the record where there's there's basically an absence of information as to the shrimp price structure between here and tunisia black tiger prices in van in my presence and whether those would be the same or even similar they were just i mean these are apples and did use indonesian data to value the by products but when it came to the primary end point which for shrimp is russia itself commerce determined that out of these two imperfect source of information that it would go with bangladesh rather than indonesia here based on the record that we have inside of us you think that would have been a reasonable choice by commerce although i can't speak for commerce likely not because congress itself explained that indonesian doubt it was lacking for those three reasons being the jan i labor and actually no authority that congress is required to cobble together different sources of information from and i know we understand that that there isn't some you know that congress is not compelled to find from a dozen different countries you know factors of production did and then cobble them all together the only question i have was it's a hypothetical one would it have been reasonable would it have been supported by substantial evidence of choice by commerce to have elected to use the white shrimp from indonesia based on the was further explaining that it used an indonesian value as a surrogate for shrimp scrap waste and all prior administrative yes congress used an indonesian value as the serrated because there was no other option on the record it had used the same volume in every prior administrat whole shrimp there are two values that are available on the record there is not the data relating to bangladesh which is just black tiger shrimp five different counts ices and then there is not good data from indonesia which is also white shrimp of three counts ises and black shrimp for councils and congress chose between those two datasets to determine what was the best available information on the record they do that in the context of building up a surrogate value that has thirty seven different components in terms of the ferret factors production that were in place and at the time they made this decision thirty six of those components were from bangladesh there was one the shrimp scrap value that was in the nation in nature now we have litigated and separately against which is not an appeal here we  value as represents the domestic industry and following court the court of international treats remains back to the commerce department congress then use the labor value from india rather than from bangladesh in that proceeding can see on the appendix of the records how much information we put on the record to demonstrate that this was an unreliable data source by which to build the serac of value there is nothing like that on the record for this case what you have instead is a series of assertions that there is a difference between van of my prices and black higher prices based on a comparison of in the nation price of the indonesian certain values on species at comparable count sizes and that's it so overall our belief is that what congress has done is an appropriate  added to the indonesian values overall so what we're what the court is being asked to do is take an isolated value from indonesia and drop that within the context of bangladesh without first demonstrating that indonesia is an appropriate place to be to do any of  affects prices the record is very clear that there are differences in the cost of black tiger woods is vital white van made shrimp in indonesia and we went further we show that the prices through the united states of the vietnamese export identical on page eight eighty three of our joint appendix you have the black tiger prices for bangladesh and on page eight sixty six you have the black tiger prices for indonesia calculated exchange rate of about ten thousand repeat a one if you move the decimal place for to the left you will find month by month size by size virtually identical black tiger pricing in indonesia bangladesh which to me indicates that there must be something that affects the price of white van in may which brings it down and the vietnamese export price when you eliminate all size all processing if you just look at identical products sold with only a species difference there is a significant difference in the us selling price once again species affects cost cost affects price and if commerce does not use surrogate values that are specific to the input being valued in the going to calculate in correct normal values and then the calculate in correct on margins it is critical in this case to commerce value the  of the same economic development or those those factors affect us at early age to be in this in here are those important is selecting a surrogate country or not absolutely important all other things being equal come or should use correct but the primary consideration is best available information you want to match the surrogate cost of the input being valued in this case congress departed from you want your hands around view for four for best information available well i think this is where  data are same or different and in this case it's from the same study they are equally valid surrogate values they are both the best available information but for the fact that on with the ash does not have any white venom a price