you know it's like my place the court art allen i represent the apollo and making thomas in this case we're here asking that this court reversed the decision of the district court which denied mr thomas is suppression motion it's our position that mr thomas was constructively arrested without probable cause and that statement solicited from him during that illegal detention constitute fruits of the poisonous tree and should have been suppressed very briefly the factual issues are set out unfortunately i would have to concede that the trial attorney did not develop the timeline as closely or as defendant to vly as i would have liked for this court but what we do know is that at about twenty minutes told midnight is the first time that we actually have a night's an officer responding to a call at a  movie house in the northwest portion of las vegas to move someone with a gun how long that college coming on what time the call came in the record doesn't reflect but by the time that officer arrived at two black males were already handcuffed and wearing place in front of a police car so using the earliest time of twenty minutes to in saying that there were two black males involved in a verbal altercation with a group of men in a pickup truck that one of the one of the black males in the nine one one call group detach yourself from the group and take off in a different direction officers pursued her she threw a handgun into the back of a pickup that was park the handgun was retrieved the main officer involved in this detective joe kelly was called at three minutes past midnight so by this point where twenty three manage the end of the at least he arrived six minutes later on the scene nine minutes past midnight by the time he arrived he observed the two black males handcuffed in front of the police marked patrol car the mother of the cane age girl who had been seen throwing the handgun had already by that point been contacted and had arrived on the scene the record does not on fortunately reflect how long it took to contact her or how long it took for her to get over to the scene some saw i'm not sure what the pertinence is of the timeline for the following reason i guess was required i'm not sure i understand your argument as to why there was not probable cause the nine one one call or have reported fight that involved  or weapon a firearm of some sort or the officers that again was being passed from one person to another they actually saw a young woman with it and by the time they that firearm your honor because the government has a slightly different spin on the facts of this case than the record really supports did i state anything that was not in the record your honor the police did not see a handgun from a black male to the female who separated herself there is at least conflicting testimony at one point the officer said because she left the group she became a subject of interest and was pursued at another point the record says they saw something handed to her but it was never defined as being a handgun nor was the there any of the group but the nine one one ca were one two three females and two black males the nine one one call or voice on able to identify which of the males had had the handgun and in fact after kelly is talking to her right at the st and she still cannot identify which of the two miles now gone i'm not saying it's unreasonable perhaps for them to have thought that someone in this group but one of them is a foul on why isn't it reasonable or probable that you know you don't have to be one hundred percent certain  detained we're now up to about thirty minutes by the time at least already minutes and probably based upon the fact that the girl the teenage girl's mother had been contacted by phone was already on the scene written statements have been obtained from the three or the two other females that were in the group none of which identified which of the males had it were really doing an investigation yawner is where the problem is and we simply don't detain people during the course of an investigation even though we might think some of this group if there were people who would just definitely only have one i wouldn't assume that but i would assume that at the point the police handcuffed him detain these people that they at least get a pat down search and were reasonably assured there were no of the weapons and no issue of officer safety involved there was no reason to continue the detention at that point on i see my time is running short if i'm i save a minute or so for good morning may have police a court and council my name is gregory dam i'm an assistant united states attorney representing the united states of america in this case the defendant appears to be arguing  that probable cause in this case was not developed and tell after the defendant can see confessed to possessing the firearm a question we however believe that as we've indicated in our about the defendant's argument about a lack of probable cause this seems to stem from a statement that they make in their opening brief that footnote four on page number fifteen where they seem to discount the testimony of the juvenile are gone and indicate that the only direct evidence implicating thomas came from the juvenile actually found in propinquity with the weapon this individual's bias and incentive to implicate another is self evident they have in my opinion opinion certainly doesn't negate the finding of probable cause that last occasion after the police the officers had reasonable suspicion to conduct an investigative investigatory detention of thomas and others at the scene which develop probable cause to arrest thomas once for dawn told officers thomas was the one who would given her the gun by the time opinion unless this court has any additional questions i'd be more than happy to my time to counsel for a defendant len or to co counsel for the defendant in this case got a very briefly just to address one point and that is again conceding that the record in this matter is somewhat confusing from the other densher hearing however detective kelly testimony at two different points contradicts the factual basis that the government would have this court except at page thirty eight of the record off who was already on the scene when detective kelly arrived informed detective kelly that their work both two possible suspects in other words meaning the foo blackmails who were i and that y at page forty six of the excerpt of record detective kelley himself says that after arriving at this point quote we didn't know which m the gun and that is the investigating officers own statement which contradicts that they arrived they look there to let you know that mr thomas had it ok i think we