are you familiar with the fact that your oral argument is now instantaneously memorialized yet unnamed supreme court website you can access it almost immediately and listen to yourself not so sure that's a good thing but you know feel developing your argument but bear in mind that that's the eight hundred pound gorilla in this case all right well let me address that right off the bat ben because i certainly believe i understand your point happen both ways and but in this case the human rights commission and the administrative law judges there are a surprising number and we reference those in our well of defect cases where the judge request for emotional damage his was reduced there's no citation to anything following that sentence it would have been very helpful to us if you had supported that particular statement i believe in the brief there are there is that discussion  including all is ok as is discussion but that particular sentence which is i think at the heart of your argument with respect to marc well damages you say they're regular worst cases where the i'm opposed to request for emotional damage is was reduced period to future and i'm not being critical here i think it would be very helpful to those of us who are luddites as myself and not necessarily computer and that when you do cite to it ministry of cases to give us a bound volume with those decisions i will remember it was i that would be very but not south issue that i want to focus on that we've touched on this whether to answer the question the conduct of mr novak was outrageous which is a legal standard to award a motional to stress damages and whether there was indeed extraordinary emotional damage what happened in this case is invasion of two thousand and two when you say outrageous woman was operating a tavern in the state of wisconsin she was planning on moving to florida he was sitting at a tavern and said well i'm starting up a business maybe you can come work for me the next thing you know that was talon house it wasn't sixteen hundred foot townhouse and it well it had a separate bedroom and bathroom and was actually high for two months which she occupied for two months and i bought working environment it's not whether it's the screens it's whether it is contributing to the general tenor of the environment along with other act discrete what makes the street the screen is he actually if there is continuity of the same atmosphere be it the fact that it's originates in  click through her materials being with her office calling her at odd times and asking her whether she says with somebody now that's the people all of a different sort it's not totally unrelated to what you would consider to be the benchmark event we view it is that yes right from a month after she moved at the residence there were dirty jokes and that there were these inquiries and that there were right her drawer instances where he drank too much outrageous but for the peoples it was distasteful it was offensive it was bizarre but it did not rise to the rattle of a continuum of sexual harassment that occurred  in the same vein as the people at city and when the people in sitting around was she immediately moved out and went back wisconsin and contemplated her future and erratic to com doesn't mean that doesn't negate the argument that could go the other way and i think the hardest for you is to show that the other way isn't fair but if you give u one side of it but you're leaving alone of the other you're not helping us on review because that's up to the judge to decide which way he wants to go it's within the latitude it is his discretion you have to convince us that there  in a very difficult spot because he can't go out of his way to favor the pro se at the risk of being biased against the other side so the question is this judge overstepped the bounds in allowing incompetence moreover in these kinds of things queries you know that these are temptations that adversaries get when one side is weaker than the other there is a tendency to take advantage of that and that's a very difficult situation for the trial judge to handle how to see what the sieges caution the one side against the other it's very difficult but in any event how prejudicial is that he allowed these questions to proceed again you would have to establish that somehow getting this information out there called the trial judge as the fact finder as well as the judge to be more stringent against him than he would otherwise be i think you're going to have a difficult time but i think better a fair reading of the record does show bad stuff particularly when you see other cases w the defaulting howdy did not show up at the panicked this hearing where the behavior i described by the complainant is much more severe involving touching demands for sexual relations sins and the like and the words are great a great lawyer and we did detail the for riding of cases including many from the human rights commission including the judge judge grant where the place it was not the type of psychiatric care that often is found in severe cases of emotional distress where a party has medication where they have to every day being a struggle she was a parent of three teenagers so i understand where every day can be a struggle but it didn't really relate to the conduct of  find that out she did know about it and i think she she handled it and then she decided because this business was doing so poorly she decided to start her own business she writes in the latter's inviting him to do business with  maybe no mention of any kind of dysfunction in the workplace or this satisfaction she just says that she's moving out and he can offer him some of these business services back doesn't that get a favorable response from him and then she writes another letter which is all in the transcript is that c three o night she's officially resigning and is going off with this gentleman who was her significant other and she thinks that mr no has an excellent program again no mention of any sexual harassment discomfort or otherwise then finally three days later on the night she states her resignation is due to her salary not being paid for seven months with promises and contracts being changed without her permission and conversations that she had that were menstrual and that there were sexual remarks he adds that in there then she waits not one not two but three months  to file case and then the mark after that she goes off i'm a european vacation with this gentleman we don't believe that these were the types of severe emotional damage is the most of all suffering that she described when she in the transcript described her reasons for leaving it's again broken promises disappointment in paris and of telling her family and friends what happened to word that the that the jap didn't work out that she had she was the national sales is there any duty on the part of the administrative law judge to ensure a fair hearing if it becomes apparent in the course of the hearing that the person who is being examined is an adverse witness may not be i think in a case any obligation at all i think it's a self destruct but i think whether it's an attorney or a pro se person representing the employer that the l t a always has to make sure that the proceeding is a conducted in a fair any question about the mental state of a pro se or even an attorney who's there representing a client the attorney as mental problems there were no indications other than one reference made and miss lim's testimony poured the and that witness under this this as a response to swift ok there's nothing odd about it there's no remark by the l g that he's acting oddly you know you know walking around the room or hearing voices or anything like that there's just one little bit of going to caution is not considered excessively arachnid i think mr know that and knew that attorneys would be helpful because he did have attorneys at the beginning of the proceeding in front of involve less than where the award was less than half the amount awarded by this administrative law judge would that be reviewable for abuse of discretion anxiety she doesn't there's no evidence that she didn't have this before there's no evidence that she didn't have something else in her life that put up was that you know when you don't have an expert witness motional you look at it more closely however it's always in the planet's burton to show that she suffered the damages and i think that we discussed in our brief she talks about her feelings during boss was working for the company during the two months that she was living in the town home and during the time when she had her own apartment and the harassment continued she talking to chelsea talks about the effect that she suffered sense since her constructive discharge from the south and regarding the period when she was working there she talks about how anxious and worried she was by the fact that he was back from visiting her children and found that he'd gone through her underwear drawer that she felt like her privacy had been invaded and she felt violated she talked about how when she came back in december that he had drilled the peoples into her bathroom in her bedroom fairly in sex now who are you having sex with she talked about all those feelings that happened during the time she was working i mean living in the town home challenge and post meetings last we don't know where she also talked about how in the two years between when she was constructively just charged and bills and they have not appeal that award and contested that she infected seek the psychological counseling from two different people so there is evidence in the record sure there could have been more work but they could have cross examined her if they didn't think if they thought her testimony was begged or not sufficient they could have said they could have cross examine her on it and they chose not to so they created this situation you know where the record is not fully developed by not cooperating with these proceedings and now they want to have a restart and go through everything aga don't see any of those the results of your research mean that you weren't particularly successful except in two rape cases to show that awards ever reach the six figure level well i think commission to be liberal and in a war you need damages second i decided case it talks about how it's hard to compare these sorts of cases because the facts and circumstances are different in every case and i could not find any cases tha on the jobsite you know it's another thing when it's done under the skies are all of it so i think it cuts the other way your honor because i think in your in your home situation you have an expectation of privacy that's greater than in the workplace i think it's even w place of residence can really be attributed to the hostile environment at the workplace or whether that is completely private i'm reconciled to the notion that it can be but its relationship commission level were in the five and ten thousand dollars range and they have been slated but there's very few that are over fifty and judge brenton self in deep proceedings look at the circumstances reduced the way because he held that they exceeded the norm of what the commission typically awards and we submit that a review of the commission cases will illustrate  maybe that there is a place where were her economic loss and her sexual disturbance coalesce just as in the rape case the return to jail alternative was a factor to be considered in establishing the fact of the size of the sexual intrusion here she abandoned her own on business including using misusing her services after her run errands when she was supposed to be an executive i thought also intersects with the gender the spare richmond's because  circumstances to return to her home in wisconsin with nothing because she couldn't handle work or tolerate the sexual past i still eat that this environment created for her shouldn't that count with all due respect around i think i understand what you're saying and i respectfully disagree i don't think that these features of economic  attributable to a kind of economic coercion to tolerate the misbehavior i don't believe that those are compensable elements of emotional distress damages that have ever been recognized by the commission furthermore she was planning  n and she didn't fact start wrong company and she did have apparently some success with the company so i don't believe that these ancillary and consequential things that happened to her economic wife are the types of emotional to stressors that the commission after has looked at in determining whether or not they should be in a world of emotional distress damages and in fact the types of things that they look at such as back chasen's a fact that functioning in life and relationships and going out in those kinds of things are simply not present here and we contend that feel worthless pressley excessive and that the