good afternoon your honour's my name is rock and soul and i represent mr kobo cobol there's two issues in this particular case the consent to get into the home and the seizure that occurred on the college i would like to spend the bulk of my it immigration case mr coble called was not under any investigation for any wrongdoing whatsoever in two thousand and eleven instead it was related to essentially supplemental assistance on a stabbing investigation  absolutely your honor but the point is even at that point they had no reason to think that the remaining people for anyone who lived in the same apartment that mr meadows a did were in violation of immigration law so that is correct honor the the issue there was is that they said that they were going to give him additional time to retrieve some personal items the point is though is that at the time became an investment the immigration investigation your honor they're also quite clear that they had a debt of five this guy was not the actual suspect so they were treating personal items at the time this is critical your honor mr kobo kobo was asleep they had no evidence whatsoever that he was in violation the law and here normally i don't like to spend time reading from a transcript but i would direct the court's attention to the hearing transcript page thirty seven lines ten through twenty two the important part of that is that prior to the time that mr coble polvo was ordered to couch they had no evidence whatsoever that he was in violation of immigration laws zero it was clearly seizure now after the fact they talked about what was the basis to detain him they said the fact that he spoke spanish that he looked latino agent one said the fact that he had soccer flags was one factor that they looked at that that meant he possibly was a foreigner in the third thing is that he lived in the same location as elias mendoza in this particular case and that we would argue is not sufficient to  n there was not grounds to seize a sleeping individual on the basis of his national origin or spanish speaking ability alone and i thought well well what flying immigration law  some point they say that there may be a set of factors that in which they could take that into consideration and i believe that they referred to locations near the border but in this particular case there was no evidence whatsoever that that he had violated the immigration law at that point zero and so i think that the question is that if you are to have your honor it evidence that someone may be violating the immigration law i think at that point yes there could be a circumstance where you'd say ok given the fact that we already have some evidence we may build a place some weight on that but this case began centrally in this particular issue with national origin as well spanish speaking and that's not enough i would direct the court's attention to the man so case and it is a ninth circuit case for fifty seven f thirty nine twenty eight and a least in the ninth circuit they were quite clear that national origin and spanish speaking should should offer should be very careful if if they're going to use that the court below talked about an eighth circuit case in which they indicate that in certain circumstances i think if the garcia case twenty third third thirteen thirty one that it can be used as a factor  but i would just notice if the court isn't going to rely on manzo would request that you know that that be clear in terms of whether there's a conflict so i think the issue is that if the court finds that there are not reasonable grounds that attain it throughout evidence that will two thousand a lot two thousand and eleven investigation your honor there is no evidence whatsoever that i think that they do your honor under terry to be able to stop and frisk and detain someone on that basis they have suspicion that in fact that they are armed and there was none in this case there was no indication that mr indows had an arm that he was involved in the actual stabbing incident and that it was an unsupported assertion below that there was any reason i don't know that there was as the mr windows or your honor there was nothing whatsoever to suggest that he posed a safety risk he had been cleared of the stabbing investigation and they he had no weapon honest person he was just undocumented so what about arrest i don't think that that i think that still has to be supported i don't i don't read the case law your honor that you can do a total sweep without any evidence whatsoever that any of the occupants pose a threat the other piece of it is they could have arrested him on the spot and brought him back but instead they accommodated him to do the to get some personal items so nothing about inside the house authorized to detain and for the authority on that i would just rely on please the court i'm dan tweed i'm representing the united states in this case this case is really broken down into two parts as you've seen we have the two thousand and eleven incident and that's where the officers encounter mr mendoza and your investigation into a stabbing incident it turns into an immigration case when they find out that he is here illegally from guatemala they allow him to go into his residence they're going to stay at his elbow to make sure that they maintain the integrity of the arrest to make sure it's doesn't get access to anything dangerous that could harm it when they're inside the residence they perceive the purposes the officers testified they asked everyone to come forward into the living room so that they could  make sure that there was nobody else where they cause them any injury or harm they were investigating a stabbing so not only that they ask that the people there a benefit to themselves and they were able to rule out the fact that they were looking for they were also developing suspicion that the people there were they are illegally in this country it was not just based upon their appearance in fact agent luntz that he didn't put any weight on the hispanic appearance of the individuals what they said was that the situation showed that mr mendoza had no identification he was an undocumented and they found out that he was illegal they said that when they asked for identification of those people inside the residence no government issued identification that the n this would lend lend them to believe that these were undocumented aliens no one spoke english again as  this would lead them to believe that these people were there first short period of time because they haven't picked up the english slang they also determine that the four individuals were all males unrelated roughly the same age they had found that this also leads them to the that these people were in the country illegally or at least for a short period time again no proof of identification they saw the foreign sports as foreign and decent so this also led them to believe that they were not necessarily born or raised here and in the united states after they had all that suspicion then they asked for the question are they here illegally there was nothing wrong with this procedure they had reasonable suspicion to place them in the couch ask them this will questions regarding their investigation make sure they were safe and then during that the suspicion a rose the judge read found that all that was fine that they there fifth teen four years later received an e mail that shows that the defendant is using social security numbers to register a car this triggers the investigation he takes the steps to follow up on that that email contacts and i want to part with the transportation to determine whether or not other vehicles are being registered by the defendant under that social security number he also contacts i will work first development and determine but that whether or not they had that and then placation card from carlson building maintenance they would have found carlson building maintenance as an employer or using where the defend it was using the social security number  was there because when he contacted i will workforce development he was given three employers one of whom was carlson building maintenance and in fact the carlson building maintenance i nine form was completed in and fifteen we're not even talking about a form that was completed of the time that the original identification card was seized we have a name that he follows up with all of the following all the companies so whether he ha car before or after he followed up with the names wrong i workforce development he would have come across that i nine as he testified if he hadn't already contacted them there was no reason to contact them twice he already had that information so trying to see were all system point this person may have been used in the social security now so if they're using of the register cars he's probably got a job they contact i will workforce development are there any employers listing this or yeah but you got it from our workforce i work first development and there's one of that's very got karl and the carlson name was listed can cone carlson building maintenance in the third location and so he contacted everyone on that list but he since you've already contacted carlson to begin with for law enforcement to figure out where people are employed if they have a number they had a name counsel you have a little over a minute i would just as to the inevitable destruction discovery doctrine and the agent testified at the pension hearing that in fact this investigation began with a routine review of the immigration file during reorganization and that's what led to the investigation at the second hearing and then he said oh whoops i had forgotten which is ok we all forget things from time to time and he did it was another rose in the context of a conditional guilty plea you know if i go to trial on this matter your honor and not having an admission that you're in the country illegal not having a file not having at least a card that was found in a file that's a different case