we'll hear the witnesses opening statements committee members for five minutes each based on for those who are here at the opening of the hearing i was thirty seconds ago and in order of arrival for those joining us later secondly i'd like to make it clear that our committee's policy what it is on handling protests we have no objection to audience members wearing t shirts and hats expressing their views but to maintain order in the he room we quested audience members do not hold up or wave signs make gestures to attract attention stand up and protest shout or yell your views or otherwise disrupt the hearing will ask the capitol police to remove anyone from the room who violates this policy and i should let people know that it is the policy of the capitol police to arrest anyone in egypt and from the hearing room our witnesses are in the homestretch of congressional testimony marathon  this hearing may even seem like the fourth time around an endless loop that's why we're asking both ambassador ryan crocker and general david petraeus to more or less summarize the main points of their testimony at their discretion a report to congress that has been heard once in the house and twice and the senate already this way will move more and more quickly to the questions posed by members of the committee to make sure that is many members of the committee as possible are you time i intend to use the gavel at the five minute mark exactly in other words a member can use his or her time to give a speech or to question the witnesses but no back loading no four and a half minute speech then the questions coming you're not going to the witnesses will not be answering those kinds of questions now that these housekeeping points have been made i recognize myself for some opening remarks to our distinguished witnesses the committee has great respect mr ambassador general petraeus for your accomplishments and deeply appreciate your service were also keenly aware of the sacrifices being made by the us military and our dedicated diplomatic corps in iraq along with their families but our respect and appreciation for you and the people you lead does not mean that we should yield in our oversight responsibilities quite the opposite we have to make a tough minded assessment that is fact based and not logically driven it is right and appropriate to question the reports of progress that the executive branch offers to congress congress and the people who sent us to washington want to see years of effort in iraq and with a positive meaningful and lasting result a stable cohesive iraqi government democratic and nature an iraq that does not threaten its neighbors and is able to resist domination by them a country living under the rule of law with protection for individuals in minority rights this would be good for iraq of course but more importantly it would be good for american interests but are we there yet hardly can we get there at a cost appropriate to that benefit i'm not convinced in fact in some areas we seem to be slipping backwards general petraeus when you last came before this committee you argued that the surge would allow u s troops to help their iraqi counterparts seize and hold areas that were then under the control of anti american forces how effective could this effort have been when mortars and rockets can rain on the green zone launched from the solder city district of baghdad directly across the tigris our diplomats and our diplomats and other civilian personnel are literally under fire for more than two weeks our embassy is bombarded and all the past two plus weeks have seen the worst violence in the green zone since the war began five years ago i have a clear memory that the season hold component of the surge strategy as conceived in late two thousand and six and implemented in two thousand and seven would eventually be directed at the most violent and unstable areas of the solders yet we do not even seem to be close to seizing and holding solders why not are we focusing our efforts on securing this district for the long term or must we rely on the whims of titles sagar to maintain the peace what can you tell us about this how this situation came about what is the source of this mortar and rocket fire what is the reason for it what if anything can be done to stop it some reports say the rockets were made in china is that the case and if so how have they made their way to baghdad on another subject the surge was intended to quell the violence primarily in order to create a political space for iraqis to move on toward national reconciliation two years ago a key iraqi leader with whom i met to find national reconciliation this way moderate shiite sunni and kurdish leaders coming together across sectarian lines used to join hands so that they could get things done for the benefit of the whole country the middle would rise in iraq and lead the way in this process the americans gentlemen the american sacrifices involved in creating the space for reconciliation have not brought us there yet we haven't seen much progress general you've acknowledged this in your own quote in the washington post a little while ago last month conceding that no one in the u s or iraqi governments feels that there has been sufficient progress by any means in the area of national reconciliation i quote or the provision of basic services in iraq you were both honest and obvious in those comments and bastard or we'd appreciate you addressing this point in your testimony the most disturbing strategic development of the war is that iran the most dangerous state in the region so far has emerged as the winner their enemy saddam is gone and in his place is a government seemingly very open to iranian friendship and influence iran's gains from the war were underscored again in recent days by the fact that representatives of prime minister maliki traveled to iran to negotiate a cease fire with the militia outside are the last time you two gentlemen came before this committee prime minister maliki had just told the world that if american forces were to leave iraq he could quote find new friends well we haven't left but he seems to be cementing his friendship with iran as bassett or crocker what is the nature and level of in iranian influence in iraq today and what is the u s doing to limited to what extent was a cease fire in basra the result of an iranian initiative to what extent does our ultimate success in iraq depend on decisions in tehran general petraeus without giving our enemies operational details can you provide the american people with your plan to eliminate the iranian anti coalition presence in iraq the surge produced a number of tactical successes and a few opportunities to achieve political progress as well but strategically it seems to me that we're treading water the surge was meant to buy time for mr maliki and other iraqi leaders to move toward ending this civil conflict with a political settlement unfortunately they seem not to have much avail themselves of this opportunity and in the meantime we've strained u s military readiness sacrificed previous precious lives and billions of dollars and tailed our ability to address our country's other needs and priorities gratitude for your commitment and your leadership and for the dedication of all who serve with you my stepson and daughter in law continued to wear our nation's uniform and we're proud to serve our country in iraq today the fifth anniversary of the liberation of iraq in baghdad especially the people by the united states and our coalition partners i want to reiterate how grateful we are for the sacrifices  consider the consequences of our policy decisions and recognize that immediate disengagement would only emboldened the forces of radical islam and leave an enormous power vacuum in iraq want to be filled by the regime in iran with its proxies in iraq and throughout the region our enemies have made clear their intentions both in words and deeds in his most recent interview released on april second senior collapses and the raids on new york and washington were identify fine marks of this collapse al qaeda has been and if nothing else consistent in its message in this regard in october of two thousand and six  stated we will not rest from our jihad until we are under the olive trees and we have blown up the filthiest house which is called the white house i'm willing to take them at their word that they desire nothing more than the destruction of the united states and they are willing to stop at nothing to achieve it there are those in the united states who argue that the threat would disappear if the u s were not in iraq that is not only naive but dangerous are those who look at iraq and afghanistan as two independent battles calling for retreat from one as the recipe for success in the other but they cannot be separated we must look at them in an integrated manner in the same way the radicals look at them as intertwined and as part of their broader effort to use their word to drive all unbelieving forces out from the land of the muslims and to destroy the united states the great satan us are becoming impatient they say we have done enough for iraq however they fail to fully comprehend the critical strategic interests that are us over there and the great sacrifices which iraqis are making for their own freedom while throughout iraq the jihadists are losing losing militarily losing the support of the local sunni population they are by no means defeated and you general petraeus and testified in the senate yesterday and i quote in you and you said al qaeda senior leaders who still view iraq as the central front in their global strategy funding direction and foreign fighters to iraq of iraq last week the us major said we have seen the continued use of iranian manufactured and supplied rockets mortars and explosive leaf formed penetrators and in fact we have captured individuals who tell us that they have recently been to iran and have been trained by the could force operatives in the last year we have witnessed both important political progress but we understand that we still face significant challenges on both of these fronts but there has been some progress the recent passage of the pensions law the db affectation law the provincial powers legislation the fiscal year two thousand and eight budget and consideration of the consumer protection law have clearly illustrated that they are up to the task it is critical that we lay the groundwork not only for normalized bilateral relations between the united states and iraq but  among responsible nations to start we must begin by recognizing iraq as a sovereign nation and our ally we must stop talking down to iraq and start talking with iraq as a partner iraqis have volunteered in large numbers to fight for their freedom in their armed forces many have died in the struggle against radical islam and for freedom iraqi casualties in this struggle far exceed lamentable american casualties but we're not fighting a war for them we are assisting them in their fight which is both ours as well and the fight of every freedom loving chairman for your time our witnesses today are well known to all of us ambassador ryan crocker is one of the most distinguished members of our diplomatic corps has been in bass since march of last year his assignment to iraq is fifty  elevated him to the rank of career ambassador the highest rank in the foreign service general david petraeus likewise one of our most distinguished military officers he has been in his current post as commanding general of the multinational forces in iraq since february of last year this is his third command in iraq he commanded one hundred first airborne division during the initial phase of the war he was in charge of training iraqi security forces in two thousand and four and two thousand and five and as i indicated he returned to iraq as our top commander last year gentlemen you've testified before this committee seven months ago we do look forward to hearing your testimony again today and  resources for public spending all of this mr chairman has been done before you in september these laws are not perfect and much depends on their implementation but they are important steps also important the prime minister is confident and determined to press the legal group but also determined to take a hard look at lessons learned the efforts of the government against extremist elements have broad political support agreement will not specify troop levels and it will not tie the hands of the next administration to ensure that the next president arrives in office with a stable foundation upon which to base policy decisions and that is what this agreement will do congress will remain fully informed negotiations in the coming weeks and months and terms of economics since september we've seen the revival of marketplaces across iraq and the reopening of long shuttered businesses according to a center for international private enterprise last month level hydrocarbon legislation improving electrical production and distribution improve the climate for foreign and domestic investment and take a number of other steps along with other technical assistance to resolve internal boundaries or has returned international staff to iraq to assist with the return of internally displaced persons and re appeared before you seven months ago there has been significant but even security progress in iraq levels of violence and civilian deaths have been reduced substantially iraq and a number of other extremist elements have been dealt serious blows the capabilities of iraq the forces have grown and there has been noteworthy involvement of local iraqis and local security nonetheless the situation in certain areas a still on satisfactory and innumerable challenges remain moreover as events in the past two weeks have reminded us the progress made since last spring is fragile and reversible still security in iraq is better than it was when we reported to you last september and it is significantly better than it was fifteen months ago when iraq was on the brink of civil war a number of factors have contributed to the proper progress person has been the impact of increased numbers of coalition and iraqi forces you're well aware of the u s surge less recognized is that iraq  also conducted a surge adding well over one hundred thousand additional soldiers and police to its security forces in two thousand and seven the second factor has been the employment of coalition and iraqi forces in the conduct of counterinsurgency operations deployed together to safeguard the iraqi people to pursue al qaida iraq to combat criminals and militia extremists to foster local reconciliation and to enable political and economic progress another important factor has been the attitudinal shift among certain elements of the iraqi population since the first sunni awakening in late two thousand and six sunni communities in iraq increasingly have rejected al qaida in iraq six imminent violence and extremist ideology over time awakenings have prompted tens of thousands of iraqis to contribute to local security as so called sons of iraq with their assistance the threat posed by al qaida iraq while still lethal and substantial has been reduced s ignificantly the recent flare up in basra southern iraq in baghdad underscored the importance of the cease fire declared by much at all solder last fall as another factor in the overall reduction in violence recently of course on militia elements became active again the sauder stand down or resolve the situation to a degree the flare up also highlighted the destructive role iran has played in funding training arming and directing the so called special groups and generated renewed concern about iran in the minds of many iraqi leaders unchecked the special groups pose the greatest long term threat to the viability of a democratic iraq in september i described the fundamental nature of the conflict in iraq as a competition among ethnic and sectarian communities for power and resources this competition continues influenced heavily by outside actors and its resolution remains the key to producing long term stability in iraq various elements push  ethno sectarian competition toward violence terrorists insurgents militia extremists and criminal gangs pose significant threats al qaeda senior leaders who still view iraq as the central front in their global strategy send funding direction foreign fighters to iraq action by neighboring states combat the challenges syria has taken some steps to reduce the flow of foreign fighters but not enough to shut down the key network that supports al qaida iraq and iran has fueled the violence in a particularly damaging way as i mentioned through its lethal support to the special groups these challenges and recent weeks violence notwithstanding iraq's ethno sectarian competition in many areas is now taking place more through political dialogue and  less violence in fact the recent escalation of violence in baghdad in southern iraq was dealt with temporarily at least by most parties acknowledging that the rational way ahead is talking rather than street fighting the iraq obviously remains a violent country we do see progress in the security arena as this chart illustrates for nearly six months security incidents have been at a level not seen since early to mid two thousand and five though the level did spike in recent weeks as a result of the violence in basra and baghdad but has now begun to turn down again though the period ahead will be a sensitive one as our primary mission is to help protect the population we closely monitor the number of iraqi civilians killed due to violence as this chart reflexive million deaths have decreased over the past year to a level not seen since the february two thousand and six samarra mosque bombing that set off a cycle of sectarian violence that tore the very fabric of iraqi society in two thousand and six in early two thousand and seven ethno sectarian violence is a particular concern in iraq as it is a cancer that continues to spread if left unchecked as the box in the bottom left of this chart shows the number of deaths studio ethno sectarian violence has fallen since we testified last september a big factor has been reduction in baghdad some of this is to be sure due to sectarian hardening of certain baghdad neighborhoods however that is only a partial explanation as numerous mixed neighborhoods still exist in fact coalition and iraqi forces have focused along the fault lines to reduce the violence and enable sunni and shia leaders to begin the long process of healing in their communities as this next chart shows even though the number of high profile attacks increased in march is al qaeda lashed out the current level of such attacks remains far below its height a year ago moreover as we have helped improve security and focused on enemy networks we have seen a decrease in the effectiveness of such attacks the emergence of iraq all in two years helping to secure their local communities has been an important development as chart depicts there are now over ninety one thousand sons of iraq as well as sunni under contract to help coalition and iraqi forces protect their neighborhoods and secure infrastructure and roads these volunteers who contributed significantly in various areas in the savings and vehicles not lost because of reduced violence not to mention the priceless lives saved have far outweighed the cost of their monthly contracts sons of iraq have also contributed to the discovery of improvised explosive devices and weapons and explosives caches as this next chart shows in fact we have already found more caches in two thousand and eight and we found in all of two thousand and six given the importance of the sons of iraq we are working closely with the iraqi government to transition them into the iraqi security forces or other forms of employment and over twenty one thousand have already been accepted into the police army or other government jobs al qaeda also recognizes the significance of the sons of iraq and al qaeda elements have targeted them repeatedly however these attacks in addition to al qaeda is use of women children the handicapped as suicide bombers have further alienated al qaeda from the iraqi people and the tenacious pursuit of al qaida in iraq together without loss of local support in many areas is substantially reduced its capability numbers and freedom of movement this chart displays the cumulative effect of the effort against al qaida and its insurge allies in iraq as you can see we have reduced considerably the areas in which al qaeda in iraq enjoy support and sanctuary but there clearly is more to be done having noted that progress al qaeda is still capable of lethal attacks in iraq and we must maintain relentless pressure on the organization on the networks outside iraq to support it and on the resource flows that sustain it this chart lays out the comprehensive strategy that we the iraqis in our inner agency and international partners are employing to reduce what al qaeda needs in iraq as you can see defeating al qaeda in iraq requires not just actions by our elite counterterrorist forces but also major operations by coalition and iraqi conventional forces a sophisticated intelligence effort political reconciliation economic and social programs information operations initiatives diplomatic activity the employment of counterinsurgency principles and detaining operations and many other actions as we come back al qaeda in iraq we must remember that doing so not only reduces a major source of instability in iraq it also weakens an organization that al qaeda senior leaders view as a tool to spread its influence and foment regional instability asama bin laden and iman also water you have consistently advocated exploiting the situation in iraq and we have also seen a involved in destabilizing activities in the wider mideast region together with the iraqi security forces we have also focused on the so called special groups these elements are funded trained armed and directed by iran's cuts force with help from lebanese hezbollah it is these groups that have launched iranian rockets and mortar rounds in iraq seat of government in the international zone iraq in coalition leaders have repeatedly noted their desire that iran live up to promises made by president ahmadinejad and other senior iranian leaders to stop their support for the special groups however nefarious activities by the could have continued in iraq the leaders now clearly recognize the threat they pose to iraq we should all watch iranian actions closely in the weeks and months ahead as they will show the kind of relationship are on wishes to have with its neighbor and the character of future aronian involvement in iraq we have transferred responsibilities to  their capabilities and the conditions on the ground of permit currently as this chart shows half of iraq's eighteen provinces are under provincial iraqi control many of these provinces not just the successful ones in the kurdish regional government area but also a number of southern provinces done well challenges have emerged and some others including of course basra nonetheless this process will continue and we expect on bar in ca to see a provinces to transition in the months ahead iraqi forces have grown significantly since september and over five hundred forty thousand individuals now serve in the iraqi security forces the number of combat battalions capable of taking the lead in operations albeit with some coalition support has grown to well over one hundred these units are bearing an increasing share the burden as evidenced by the fact that iraqi security force losses have recently been three times our own we will of course conduct careful after action reviews with our rocky partners in the wake of recent operations as there were units and leaders f wanting in some cases and some of our assessments may be downgraded as a result nonetheless the performance of many units was solid especially once they got their footing and gained a degree of confidence and certain iraqi elements proved very capable iraq's security ministries are steadily improving their ability to execute their budgets as this chart shows in two thousand and seven as in two thousand and six iraq's security ministry spent more in their forces than the united states provided the iraqi security forces fund we anticipate that iraq will spend over eight billion dollars on security this year eleven billion next year and this projection recently enabled us to reduce significantly our rocky security forces fund request for fiscal year two thousand and nine from five point one billion to two point eight billion while improved iraqi security forces are not yet ready to defend iraq or maintain security throughout the entire country on their own recent operations in basra highlight improvements in the ability of the iraqi security forces to deploy substantial numbers of units supplies and replacements on short notice they certainly could not have deployed a divisions worth of army and police units on such short notice a year ago on the other hand the recent operations also underscored the considerable work still to be done in the area of expeditionary logistics force enablers development and commanding control we also continue to help iraq through the us foreign military sales program as of march two thousand and eight the iraqi government had purchased over two billion dollars worth of equipment services of american origin through s m s since september and with your encouragement of the organizations in the process f m s deliveries have improved while security has improved in many areas and the iraqi security forces are shouldering more of the load the situation in iraq remains exceedingly complex and challenging iraq could face a resurgence of al qaeda in iraq or additional shia groups could violate sautter cease fire or external actors like iran could stoke violence within iraq and actions by other neighbors could undermine the security situation as well the commanders emergency response program the state department's quick response fund and usa id programs and able our commanders and troopers to help iraq deal with its challenges to that end i respectfully ask that you provide us by june the additional service funds requested in the supplemental encouragingly the iraqi government recently allocated three hundred million dollars for us to manage as a rocky sir to perform projects for their people while building their own capacity to do so the iraqi government has also committed one hundred sixty three million dollars to gradually assume sons of iraq contracts five hundred ten million for small business loans and one hundred ninety six million for a joint training education reintegration program the iraqi government pledges to provide more as they execute the budget passed two months ago last month i provided my chain of command recommendations for the way ahead in iraq during that process i noted the objective of retaining and building on our hard fought security gains well we draw down to the pre surge level of fifteen brigade combat teams also redeploying two marine battalions in the marine expeditionary unit i emphasize the need to continue work with our iraqi partners to secure the population and to transition responsibilities to the iraqis as quickly as conditions permit but without jeopardizing the security gains that have been made as in september my recommendations are informed by operational and strategic considerations the operational considerations include recognition that the military surge has achieved progress but that the progress is reversible iraqi security forces have strengthened their capabilities but still must grow further the provincial elections in the fall refugee returns detainees releases and efforts to resolve provincial boundary disputes will be very challenging the transition of sons of iraq will require time and careful monitoring withdrawing too many forces too quickly could jeopardize the progress of the past year and performing the necessary tasks in iraq will require sizable conventional forces as well as special operations forces and advisor teams the strategic considerations include recognition that the strain on the us military especially on its ground forces has been considerable a number of the security challenges inside iraq are also related to significant regional and global threats and a failed state in iraq would pose serious consequences for the greater fight against al qaeda for regional stability for the already existing humanitarian crisis in iraq and for the effort to counter malign iranian influence after weighing these factors i recommended to my chain of command that we continue the drawdown of the surge combat forces and that upon withdrawal of the last surge brigade combat team in july we undertake a forty five day period of consolidation and evaluation at the end of that period we will assess the conditions on the ground much as we have done as we have looked at where we could redeploy the surge forces and determine where and when we can make recommendations for further reductions this process will be continuous with recommendations for further reductions made as conditions permit this approach does not to be sure and allow establishment of a set withdrawal timeline however it does provide the flexibility those of us on the ground need to preserve the still fragile security gains our troopers have fought so high ardan sacrificed so much to achieve with this approach the security achievements of two thousand and seven and early two thousand and eight can form a foundation for the gradual establishment of sustainable security in iraq this is not only important to the twenty seven million citizens of iraq it is also vialli important to those in the gulf region to the citizens of the united states and to the global community it is clearly in our national interest to help iraq prevent the resurgence of al qaeda in the heart of the arab world to help iraq resist iranian encroachments on its sovereignty to avoid renewed ethno sectarian violence that could spill over iraq's borders and make the existing refugee crisis even worse and to enable iraq to expand its role in the regional and global economies in closing i want to comment briefly on those serving our nation in iraq as well we've asked a great deal of them and of their families and they have made enorm sacrifices personal awareness of the strain on them and on the forces the whole has been an important factor in my recommendations the congress the executive branch and our fellow citizens have done an enormous amount to support our troopers and their loved ones and all of us are very grateful for that nothing means more to those in harm's way than and then the knowledge that their country appreciates their sacrifices and those of their families and all americans should take great pride in the civilian and military men and women serving our nation in iraq it remains the greatest of honors to soldier with them thank you very much thank you very much general and i will now wrecking my recognize myself for  minutes and general petraeus i'd be grateful if both of you would respond the american people will decide the future direction of our presence in iraq for themselves this november they may very well decide in favor of a presidential candidate who favors a the rapid withdrawal of our troops from iraq there are consequences and cause negative in pursuing our current strategy there will be consequences of such a withdrawal very negative how do we minimize those consequences military and diplomatically how could your support for that strategy but that is a realistic alternative and i think we and the american people have a right to better understand how to cope with the consequences you fear created a situation of near civil war if not actual civil war that the surge in fact was in tended to address and that has also carried out the most damaging attacks on infrastructure and address the sauder movement if you will which is a very legitimate political movement and a large one in iraq in fact it's thirty seats helped helped elect prime minister maliki as part of the overall  and i'd like to begin by reading a few excerpts from the wall street journal editorial yesterday sixteen months after president bush ordered the change in strategy the surge has earned a place among the most important counter qaeda has been cleared from all but the northern reaches of anbar and diyala province is sunni shakes are working with coalition forces and the long process of sunni shiite political reconciliation has begun the surge sees the offensive from the enemy so rapidly that it deserves to be studied for years as an example of effective counterinsurgency none of this would have been possible if iraqis had not seen that the us was committed to protect them americans are understandably impatient with war but we have sacrificed too much and made too much progress in the last year not to finish the task the surge has prevented a humiliating military defeat and now is the time to sustain that commitment to achieve a political victory the question now is whether washington will squander these gains by withdrawing so quickly that we could still lose politically general would a precipitous withdrawal or a relatively rapid withdrawal as the chairman just mentioned would that jeopardize with that risk the gains which have been made at such a high cost congressman as i said in my statement the gains are indeed fragile and they are reversible the pace of withdrawal obviously the risk incurred by the pace of withdraw obviously depends on the conditions if suddenly again conditions just turn out perhaps better than than anticipated or continue on to a good glide slope and it may be possible to withdraw all more rapidly on the other hand again it may not so again it does come down to the can and that's what the ambassador and i have have stressed in fact is and it is understandable i think why commanders on the ground diplomats on the ground who have been through this process of of fighting so hard and sacrificing so much to achieve gains  you one area of this administration's iraqi policy that i quite frankly have found wanting is in not insisting that a considerable amount of the cost of rebuilding iraq be paid from iraqi oil reserves rather than from the american taxpayer in iraq it's my understanding has the second highest known oil reserves in the world and recent reports suggest that iraq has about thirty billion dollars in the bank from our reserves yet they've spent less than three percent of the three point five billion dollars capital budget allocated to the iraqi oil ministry only a very small portion was actually spent so now at a time when americans are paying all time high prices at the gas pump and the oil producing countries like iraq are able to demand over one hundred dollars a barrel for their  reconstruction from here on in is going to be an iraqi financial responsibility and they are stepping up to that both in terms of commitments the amount of money that they are appropriating for this purpose and their ability to actually spend it is also improving the time of the gentleman has expired and i now recognize the chairman of the middle east and south asia subcommittee the gentleman from new york m five thank both of you for your extraordinary service to our country your patriotism and willingness to tackle probably the toughest job that our country has seen in a very long time well that being said we seem to have gotten ourselves into a fix now we don't really know how to get ourselves out of it or on fixed the reasons reasons that we've gotten into this mess and you could check them off finding weapons of mass destruction check to getting rid of saddam hussein check to regime change and check it all the way down to a constitution to an elected parliament to people talking to each other  it seems that we've achieved all of our goals and every time we do that a new goal comes up and now we're stuck on reducing the ethnic violence or good luck on that one i don't know when you accomplish it that's the big  problem and i know when we ask you certain questions you're not there to determine policy but you have to have that can do attitude and accept the policy and put straight ahead nancy that question and say yes we can do it  and the brave men and women that you work with have been achieving quite a lot our job is just the opposite our job is to question job is to raise those points our job is to look at what the alternatives are and if we can't do it this way how we do it another way and you really weren't expected to answer the question you know how do we pull out when your mission is to stay in but it reminds me of that old song after world war one that you probably know very well the words are we're here because we're here you know when we're asked why the troops are there well we sent the troops over there now we have to support them because they're there why are the troops there because we sent them and what do we have to do we have to support them because they're there so we're there because we're there w  cause we're there because we're there and it never ends how do you get out of this mess is the real question how do you how do you how do you fix it i'd like in your job to to that of sophists pushing that great huge stone up of an endless hill and when we ask you when can you stop pushing it the answer is you don't know but you have to keep pushing it and certainly your answer is we've made progress today we've had some setbacks but we've made some progress recently the setbacks irreversible and the answer is not necessarily but maybe so maybe we're going to have setbacks again the surge seems to be working at this moment but it seems we've not killed enough terrorists to dissuade enough people from becoming such that they're not going to be replaced when does this end you know when do you stop pushing that big stone up hill and the answer is you really can't see beyond that stone you don't know what what it what it what a just settlement looks like you can't see around it and you'll know it when you see it but we've won because at the end of this thing unless we decide it's the end nobody's going to hand you a revolver nobody's going to hand you the sword and say we quit we stop how do we know the iraqis can stand up for themselves nobody t it's all fixed but it's going to be area by area circumstance by circumstance it is complicated it will continue to be complicated but i think it's doable the time of the iraqi army combat battalions comprised of about seven hundred fifty personnel each in forty four national police battalions will be up and running to combat the threat pointed out the number of sons of iraq has grown from twenty one thousand to over ninety one thousand with an average monthly cost of sixteen million i'd like to give an opportunity to respond to statement yesterday and i quote him a lot of people fear that as quickly as these guys switch from being enemies insurgents terrorists killing americans killing iraqi troops and now being on the payroll in effect of the us government they could flip right back very quickly if they weren't on the payroll of the us government it's my sense that payroll issues notwithstanding the surge in the sons of extremist ideology that on reflection they realized they wondered why they never let these folks into their communities they did it because they felt disrespected dispossessed in a variety of other feelings in the wake of liberation having run the country before they then also came to recognize that in business in the euphrates river valley you know we jokingly say sometimes that every tribe is a little bit like the guys that we see on the sopranos they all have you know a trucking company an import export business and a construction business it is about enlightened self interest and they realize now and we've helped them to that realization as iraqi government that you can't participate in the balcony that iraq has if you don't play they didn't vote in the elections in january two thousand and five they know that was a catastrophic error as a result that's why the sunni arabs in particular and others want to see prevention elections in the fall and it's one of the reasons that that law was a benchmark as the investor mentioned and again all we have tried to do is to play on that to help them to that realization then they certainly helped themselves and then saw it when others stood up and  raised their hand to fight against these people that had brought these problems to their doorstep instead of solutions now to move forward they do have to be incorporated into legitimate institutions of the iraqi government or the legitimate legitimate economy local businesses and so forth and in fact as i mentioned as a chart showed over twenty one thousand have already been incorporated into the security forces or other governmental positions and a lot of that started in on bar an interesting lady the prime minister shia prime minister who went to andar for the first time in some twenty years last year and then has been been back again a couple more times he has provided more resources to that almost exclusively sunni arab province than a rocky yemen has provided to any other again trying to show them how important the government viewed the stand that they were taking against al iraq then it is allowed the reopening of the border crossing at all call him with syria the lifeblood of the refrain valley starts to run back through it again and the shakes who again are all businessman in addition to heads of  tribes can start to see business revive in cities like ramadi and fallujah that is late is the spring of last year you couldn't couldn't drive through an armored vehicle without getting hit the other day we walked through without any body armor a the time of the gentleman has expired and i recognize the chairman of the african global health subcommittee of our committee mr donald payne of new jersey us for the outstanding work that you do in the way that you carry your office let me say that in october two thousand and two i was one of the members who led the opposition on the floor of the house as a matter of fact i managed the bill on a resolution authorizing president bush to attack iraq as an early and staunch opponent of this war i've watched every single prediction made by this it minute proven wrong from the duration of the war the reception we would receive the cost the number of casualties existence of weapons of mass destruction to the countless number of americans iraqis who have lost their lives every single one wrong during my years in congress have had the privilege to be appointed as the congressional delegate to the united nations i strongly believe in the power of democracy and diplomacy if we had allowed the united nations inspectors to complete their work before this war started instead of suddenly ordering them out once saddam hussein said they could go anywhere we would not be in this predicament today there would have been no weapons of mass destruction there would have been no biological weapons and we would have four thousand americans still alive ironically it was almost five years ago on may first two thousand and three president bush deemed the operation in iraq as mission accomplished affirming an end to the major combat in iraq by that time approximately one hundred and seventy five brave americans had lost their lives in combat today over four thousand  more deaths as this war continues sixty seven faith tallies from my home state of new jersey the human cost of this war remains tragic tens of thousands of countless number of iraqi lives have been destroyed by this war there's a great sense of sadness among those of us who over five years ago the tragedy that is now unfolding in iraq without an answer of how the war that we were told would be swift and certain now continues to drain our tax dollars as the cost of living rises gas prices and all the rest eighty thousand jobs lost in march unemployment over five percent for the first time in years it's just draining but th say ambassador you said it was some of bet a lot and said that iraq would be the perfect base of operation for the expansion of terrorism around the world not just in the middle east as we've seen in new york on nine eleven so i hate to put you on the spot but we need some direct answers from you folks this is very important and i know politics is a tough to deal with but we're going to have a new president in a little over eight months and one of the biggest issues in the presidential campaign is a precipitous withdrawal versus hanging in there and defeating al qaeda and the terrorists now what i would like to know and i'll give you the time that you need to answer this but i'd like to be as concise as possible what would happen if we had a very precipitous pullout number one or if we hung in there to win this battle i want to know and the american people really want to know what would happen if we with a new president said we're going to jerk everybody out there in six months and the american people want to know this because right now the war is very unpopular and the american people want to know the facts before we pick the next president a dramatic change in what we're doing in iraq but i'm not linking that to presidential campaigns or what happened in january or anything else i did say in my statement could risk failure in iraq and i talked about what some of those consequences could be in the arab world for a while i don't want to put words in your mouth but i want to make sure we understand if there was a precipitous pullout within a period of time say four five six months a vacuum would be created and al qaeda would be the beneficiary if they were aggressive along with iran's help to make that a base of operation for expanded terrorism around the world sectarian conflict at levels we probably have not seen before it would bring the neighbors especially iran into the fight and it would create space for al qaida to root itself on arab soil i  sentiment on that as well as what i have sought to do is again keep coming back to the conditions at the time that any changes made in our force levels the reason that we have recommended  situations and determining where and when you can with withdraw your forces without unacceptable risk it's about risk and it's about the consequences that the ambassador talked about with respect to al qaida sectarian conflict regional stability the humanitarian situation so forth let me just say i gather from your comments and i want to make sure that it's very very clear that if a vacuum is created it's likely that al qaeda and the neighbors like iran would be the beneficiaries and it could lead to a terrorist network base being established in iraq when that boy the time of the gentleman has expired the gentleman from california mr chairman thank reprieve from any serious diplomatic or economic pressure to stop its nuclear enrichment program i fear that we will focus exclusively on the battle in iraq and lose the war on terrorism as mr ackerman pointed out we have an obsessive concentration on iraq there because we're there others have said that we are there because saddam has to because bin laden has told us that that is the central front in the war on terrorism i would point out that mr bin laden does not always tell us the truth the greatest cost of our effort in iraq may be that we've made it impossible for our press and our country to focus sufficiently on the real threats nuclear threats to our country from iran from north korea and elsewhere now ambassador crocker your testimony states that the agreement will not specify any particular troop level which implies that it will specify some obligation on the united states what if the next president decides not to maintain a single soldier for a single day and decides to close our embassy immediately will there be anything in this agreement that ties the new president's hands should the new president adopt a radical change in our policy congressman in a word no thank you for your answer general petraeus it's possible that the new president will be someone who has announced to the country that they want the most expeditious possible withdrawal so you'll wake up november fifth you'll know who your new boss is going to be january twenty one where you begin on november fifth not only to carry out the operations have to be carried out but of course you do a lot of long term planning will you begin to prepare plans to  execute the policies of the incoming president or alternatively will the incoming president face a circumstance and i realize we may get a an incoming president that supports your policies even more fervently than the current president but if we get incoming president who wants a new policy will that president and on january twenty one a dilemma where if they order immediate withdrawal it will be an unplanned withdrawal and if they don't order immediate withdrawal then we continue to suffer casualties will you start planning on november fifth to be the best possible servant for the new boss you're going to get january twenty first congressman i can only serve one boss at a time and i can only execute one policy at a time i am sworn to the concept of civilian control of the military i fully support it and we can execute the mission that we have at that time now as the transition approaches obviously thinking their way through various contingencies and again at some point there will be contingency planning directed and obviously we would carry out the direction of the contingency planning so you would expect to get contingency plans of different natures some of them consistent with the incoming president very very hypothetical on this i am actually very uncomfortable candidly with  huge national budget deficit the iraqis are selling their oil for over one hundred dollars a barrel and they have a thirty billion dollars surplus we are providing for their security with our troops and lives and we're paying for their security forces in fact you've asked us to appropriate another two point eight billion dollars the iraqi security forces fund and as for iraqi reconstruction iraq has that twenty to thirty billion dollar surplus they've got tens of billions of dollars of currency reserves and they could be borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars if the saudis carried out their promise to renounce the debt that saddam incurred to them why are we paying everything that we're paying why aren't you demanding that the saudis follow through with their promise the united states government and the people of united states a price sign for the iraqis to pay that price for their own protection  if there is an agreement with iraq they know that they're going to be obligated to pay the expenses rather than have their hard pressed american taxpayers to pay for this that that's something we would have to consult ongoing conflict so i wouldn't fight my colleagues to join me in that legislation which i'll drop tomorrow general is it fair to say that there are thousands of radical islamic extremist terrorists who have been killed in iraq since our troops went in there not in iraq it's probably thousands certainly of foreign fighters i think we estimate that at this time they're somewhere between fifty and seventy or so that come in a month typically through syria at one time it was probably as high as one hundred perhaps two hundred twenty and over the years that we've been fighting there perhaps as many as a thousand foreign about is we need to iraqis need to step up both financially and militarily also perhaps we could use some help from other countries i understand kosovo and albania in gratitude for our help thousand are also two and a half to three times our losses in addition the iraqis are very much stepping up to the plate in that regard and they are certainly giving their lives for their country as well thank you there was an extraordinary response with more than five thousand questions submitted these e mails and phone calls expressed frustration is about the war in iraq and reflects the concerns of millions across the nation who feel their opinions and concerns are cast aside by the bush administration i want to thank everyone who responded and submitted a question for today's hearings while many of the respondents rightfully highlighted the bravery of our troops majority of the e mails expressed a strong desire to see withdrawal of american soldiers from iraq and an end to this five year war that has cost our nation so dearly most of the questions boil down to this general we often hear president bush and senator mccain say we must win in iraq what is the definition of winning what would a military victory look like that was sufficient enough to allow us to begin leaving then an horrific turn of events two of my constituents esther inland wall for boca raton florida learned that this past sunday their son had been killed for this war or was a thirty six year old reservist on his second tour he was married with three young children ages five three and twenty months his family was relieved that he was in the green zone for they hoped he would be safe there he was not i spoke to mr wall for yesterday last night who asked me to ask you simply for what for what had he lost his son so allow me to combine if you will the questions from the people that responded to me mr walsh what has all this been for and please respectfully don't tell us as you told senator warner yesterday to remove a brutal dictator that's not good enough there are many dictators in the world for what the other four thousand twenty four sons and daughters die for and how we define victory so that we can bring this never ending war to a close and if i will when mr burton asks for a definition of what is failure we get a litany of items but when asked what the definition of victory we get little please tell us general what is winning first of all congress let me tell you that what we are fighting for is national interests interests that sectarian conflict in iraq conflict that country and headed on the brink of civil war it has to do with regional stability of a region that is of critical importance to the global economy and it has to do  with certainly the influence of iran another obviously very important element in that region in terms of what it is that we are trying to  achieve i think simply it is a country that is at peace with itself and its neighbors it is a country that can defend itself that has a government that is reasonably it's worth typically seen ourselves as minimalists we're not after the holy grail in iraq we're not after jeffersonian democracy we're after conditions that would allow our soldiers to disengage and that is in fact what we are doing as we achieve progress as we have with the surge and that is what is indeed allowing us to withdraw the surge forces again well over one quarter of our ground combat power five of twenty brigade combat teams plus two marine battalions and a marine expeditionary unit by the end of july thank you the time of the gentleman open the door for more radical clerics like solder to fill the vacuum i've heard that sutter is on the fast track to becoming an ayatollah and that i presume would give him greater yesterday or the day before that weapons should only be in the hands of legitimate iraqi security forces so he has very much retained his influence but he exercises it in the tradition that is called the quietest tradition rather than say the tradition in which clerics exercise political power in iran iran certainly apparently is undertaking religious studies to try to get to the next step which is not by any means and how long that will society the martyr sautter father and uncle he is the face of a movement that is very important to the iraqi people traditionally was a nationalist movement stayed in iraq actually during the time of saddam when when others went outside the country and a movement that is dedicated to serving the poor and downtrodden of the iraqi  so it's a movement that in a sense has to be reckoned with it has to be it cannot be discounted and it is a movement that has to be incorporated into the political process well i think  n his recent comment i have not heard that and i'm encouraged by that let me ask him basser crocker because you testified yesterday that iran is pursuing a lebanese a strategy by backing militias and other  as an arm of iran it's also significant given that you saw lebanon and iranian machinations up close when you were stationed there back in the eighty's and can you compare the iranian actions in iraq today with what you saw night i visited sergeant bolduan his family at walter reed hospital and accompany me was a relative of mine whom i believe served with you in iraq his command sergeant major unit of u s army constitution our duties and responsibilities in serving the american people under the authority of the secret document under our constitution the power to declare war and the congress not the president of the united states even though he is the commander in chief of all of our armed forces moreover under the constitution the authority to establish an army and the navy is vested in the congress not to president we also believe in the accept the unique concept that our military leaders and soldiers sailors marines and airmen come under civilian authority the decisions and policies that have unleashed the tremendous powers of our military forces to wage war against saddam hussein came from congress and the white house and not by our military commanders and yet when our military officers are given the opportunity to express their professional judgments  soldiers they are condemned criticize vilified and scapegoated by civilian authority and a classic example of this general petraeus is general eric shinseki whose professional opinion on force structure requirements it's a classic example of how badly we've conducted this war doing it on the cheap and now after five years of mismanagement and bad decisions again from civilian  at the cost novel about five hundred billion dollars who puts a check on our civilian authority ambassador crocker we have accomplished our military mission by defeating saddam hussein who supposedly had nuclear weapons supposedly an eminent danger and posed a serious risk to the defense of our nation and of course we all know he did not have nuclear weapons we've just now built a nine hundred million dollar embassy in baghdad to establish our diplomatic presence with a country that has a population of responsibility for security in all of iraq's provinces by november of two thousand and seven course that does not happen i'm just wondering whether general petraeus you have any idea of why he made that statement so and  especially such a definitive statement we will we will all iraqi provinces will be under control the iraqi government what he said why would he say things like that what and that's one of the reasons why we get the kind of confusion around here that you see that's number one number two there's been widespread reports about the development of gangs inside the military in iraq that you know inside our military you know thirteen feet appearing in in baghdad is w does the sounds but is reported on national news to what extent is this truly a problem to what do you if it is a problem of a significant nature to what do you attribute this apparently some of these people are coming back to the united states after having been trained by our own military of course and using military tactics in order to advance their own lawless activities here  crocker there is a very specific law u s code section one twelve fifty three that says that you may not you may not give visas to any country that refuses to accept their nationals back who have committed some crime in the united states iraq is one of the countries that refuses to accept their nationals back with committed crimes here when we try to deport them they are not citizens of the united states we try to deport them iraq refuses to accept them there is a law that says you must it doesn't say you may it says you must in fact give the stop giving visas to that country any country that does this can you tell me why you are not following the law when you will begin to follow the law if you have any anticipation of doing it those three things and i would appreciate the answers as briefly as possible congressman first of all i'm not aware of a problem and that's one that i'll have to check on the second i don't know why the statement was made that you quoted presumably it was because of a projection that was provided to him i believe that was before the time that i was the multinational force iraq a matter if i could just take the opportunity to thank congressman for conveying the message commands ar has a great noncommissioned officer i personally awarded in the bronze star for valor for an action or ambushed in the fight to baghdad outside the battle of hillah congress and i'm just not aware of and i have asked the secretary of state about this question at least three times we have written we will continue to do so i will provide you with more information and would appreciate a definitive answer to the question while i have actually  the state department's efforts have been poorly managed characterize them as willfully negligent if not criminal what are your responses to mr miranda's allegations these are mr marandi personal views to which gentleman has expired the gentleman from new york mr engel for five thank you mr chairman gentleman welcome to the committee as you know i spent christmas in iraq and i had the opportunity to to speak with with both of you and  i want to thank both of you for the service you provide to our country what you're getting obviously is a lot a sense of a lot of frustration from all of us from many of us from me certainly and others as well when you testified both of you before before our committee last september you both talked about political benchmarks of the iraqi government that almost served as a as a framework for what you were saying to us the iraqi government  obviously been unable to achieve all of that we talk about iran and we can all agree i don't think we disagree iran is the biggest threat to the region right now to me though the worst part of the war in iraq  besides the the lives lost and the money it cost is the fact that because of our invasion we've actually given iran the upper hand in the region maliki as much as we try to make him to be a a democratic state here is propped up in parliament by the pro iranian faction factions when we are talking about trying to broker things like with the sadder group it seems that iran again has the upper hand  general you said and i agree with you that iran is funding training arming and protect the insurgents they're obviously doing that bester crocker you said  to look at conditions rather than timelines you also said that u s support should not be open ended the frustration with us is it seems like the support is open ended and every time we say that we want the iraqis to do this and that's why we have the surge and we want to allow them to be able to do things six months later eight months later when they haven't achieved that we sort of change the rules we say well you know we're we're here for another reason so please address the frustration that you that you hear nobody questions in the job that you are both doing certainly not me you have a very difficult situation but we as as members of congress are just frustrated we don't want an open ended war we want the war to end we don't see the goals that we say we are setting achievable and how can we know that six months from now a year from now five years from now we're not going to be here saying the same thing and moving the goalposts a little bit and find that the iraqi government has not achieved any of the things that we need  and still not have sustainable security in iraq but you can understand and i would like the general to answer the frustrating that we have both of you use the term that what's happening in iraq is fragile and reversible in fact i would characterize both of your testimony last september as much more upbeat than your testimony now your testimony now is is sober it's not as upbeat as it was so general you know again we are all frustrated ending congressman with respect i believe the testimony in september was sober as well that what we have tried to do today is to be forthright that is why we have stated the facts as we see them and in the way the  mr chairman i want to submit several questions to the panel and it won't be enough time to answer these but i want these questions to be on the record first i would like to ask why should the american people continue to support a war that was justified by false information since saddam hussein never aggressed against united states iraq had nothing to do with nine eleven and iraq had no weapons of mass destruction it is said that one must continue the war because we have already sacrificed so much but what is moral about demanding even more needless sacrifice of american lives merely to save face with the mistake of invading and occupying iraq doesn't it seem awfully strange that the iraqi government we support is an ally of the iranians who are devout who are declared enemies are we not now supporting the iranians by propping up their allies in iraq if  maliki is our ally and he has diplomatic relations with all maddalena john why can't we why must we continue to provoke around just looking for an excuse to bomb that country does our policy in iraq not guarantee chaos in this region for years to come it is estimated up to two thousand iraqi soldiers refused to fight against al solders militia why should we not expect many of the eighty thousand sunni we have recently armed to someday turn their weapons against us says they as well as the mahdi army detest any and all foreign occupation is it not true that our ally malik by the iranians who also condemned the attacks on the green zone how can we blame all the violence on the iranians is it not true that with the recent surge in violence in the that the march attacks are now back at the same level as they were in two thousand and five does a ran not have a greater justification to be involved in a neighboring neighboring iraq than we do since it's six thousand miles from our shores if china or russia were occupying mexico how would we react since no one can define winning the war just who do we expect to surrender does this not mean that this war will be endless since our political leaders will not and it that is until we go broke and maybe that's not far off i do have one question that even though it is not enough time to get all those questions answered i do have one question i do believe there is enough time to answer probably rather briefly in your estimation does the administration have the authority to bomb iran without further obvious that under our constitution that's the way it works and we're supposed to confer with the congress and it would be spreading the war we know what kind of the how the war spread in vietnam without congressional approval and what that led to so it seems to me that is to not say no the administration does not have authority to bomb another country without getting authority from the congress so it disturbs me to no end that we can't get a flat out no on time of the gentleman has expired his entire remarks will be part of the record and the gentleman from massachusetts mr della yes ambassador crocker i was extremely concerned about your response to a question that was posed to you yesterday by senator clinton specifically when she asked you whether the long term agreements be tween the united states and iraq which i would know to be a negotiated with minimal consultation with the u congress when she asked you whether it would be submitted to the iraqi parliament you said it was unclear whether they would bring it to a vote off whether they would simply read it to the members of the iraqi parliament i'm sure you're aware or maybe you want but the iraqi government has already committed to bringing this agreement before the iraqi parliament this is what the iraqi foreign minister had to say in a press conference with the secretary of state ms rice on january eighteenth two thousand and one quoting the defiant old association will rest with the representatives of iraq the iraqi council of representatives that's the formal name of their parliament furthermore according to the iraqi constitution international agreements must be approved by a two thirds vote of the iraqi parliament in the so called declaration of principles which was signed by president bush and prime minister maliki last november the us and iraqi governments committed to and i'm from the declaration respecting and pulling the constitution as the expression of the will of the iraqi people and standing against any attempt to impeach suspend of violate and quote if the maliki government bypasses the iraqi parliament and approves this agreement unilaterally thus violating the iraqi constitution will the bush administration respect the commitment it made in the declaration of principles and reject any agreement because from this particular perch our acquiescence in such a clear violation of the iraq constitution would further erode our credibility not just in iraq but elsewhere so if you could give me an answer to that africa i pose this question to you and it's a request really i would like you to convey to the iraqi parliament our council of representatives and the iraqi executive branch the so called council of ministers that should the united nations mandate be allowed to expire at the end of this year it's the view of many of us in congress with support from constitutional scholars that the continued use of force in iraq profoundly that as one of our my colleagues earlier read the power and the authority has to come from the u s congress the administration claims that the use of force against iraq is to pry one to address the threat posed by the government of saddam hussein and one to enforce relevant united nations resolutions the first pran is gone and the administration's claim that it continues to be in fact because of an endless story in iraq then the second problem would disappear with the un mandate so i'm just simply making a request i think to be to the iraqi government  the legislative branch as well as the council of ministers inform them that there are strong feelings here in the united states that once in this congress and this institution that once that mandate expires then it is this government the next administration has to come back to get authorization could you please convey that to both prime minister maliki and to the speaker of the council of representatives iraqis iraqi government will determine its own procedures and i'm sure they will do so with full respect for their constitution the time of the gentleman has expired and the gentleman from arizona mr flake is recognized for five minutes i thank chairman i thank the witnesses general investor thank you for your distinguished service i myself was somewhat more than somewhat skeptical when the surge plan was presented that we would see the type of gains that we have seen i think a lot of it is certainly due to your diligence in the diligence certainly of our troops well and i don't expect that you can say any more than you have said but just to let you know that is a concern in the long term in terms of what constitutes measured and i'm still waiting for that and if you have any quick thoughts on that appreciate hearing them not to pass it on to the next question it i would term as a success and as i said earlier i think that's how this will proceed that it will be area by area  eventually into more conventional roles such as assisting with with training of iraqi forces but it's going to be an incremental process over time not politically and especially financially the cost of this war in human terms to our reputation and standing in the world to our readiness as chairman skelton is outlined eloquently to our resources being diverted from our struggling economy needs at home and from the greater threat to the u s in afghanistan  knowledge to senator biden yesterday this war was sold on assurances that oil revenues would be used to help fund reconstruction of what is one of the most oil rich nations in the world and during our last hearing they were many stories about waste and mismanagement and corruption in terms of use of u s funds now  we see the growing surplus in the iraqi government that frankly we're paying for twice we're paying in our tax funds and we're paying at the  pump there was a bipartisan letter from senators levin and warner asking the g a o why u s taxpayer money is being overwhelmingly used to fund iraqi reconstruction what specific actions gentleman are being taken to use the oil rich iraqi government surplus to pay for the war and reconstruction cost  money being overly dependent on us using our budget as a crutch or there are other difficulties with really dipping into their own bast resources to fund what's going on there soldier and diplomat have been exceptional and you represent the very finest of this country and i'm grateful for your service thank you for your hospitality and my two most recent trips to iraq  and i'm pleased to extend their hospitality to capitol hill for you all first question ambassador crocker iran is in the news today that they recently announced the installation of some six thousand new centrifuges for their allegedly peaceful nuclear program i was provoked by a question of a colleague in the senate yesterday senator barack obama of illinois told you we needed quote a diplomatic surge that includes iran close quote senator obama also said we should be quote talking to them as well ambassador crocker i'm under the impression we have been talking to iran particularly in two occasions these are trilateral discussions rocky's are in the room as well but it is our one authorized i'm remembering forgive me for interrupting i'm remembering a four hour meeting the evidence you presented here today it's clear to me and the many of us in this congress across the country the surge is working the strategy that you brought to this theater of combat has achieved significant  military progress and i commend you for it made repeated references to the fragile nature of our success i recognize that i accept that it's not irreversible but it has been substantial and dramatic progress in the last fifteen months in iraq in the expansion of security and stability following the advent of the surge i mentioned congressman it was also the iraqi surge the increase of their armed forces support for u s military operations in iraq during fiscal year two thousand and eight and beyond for the protection and safe redeployment of our troops out of iraq before president bush leaves office and i would like chairman to ask unanimous consent that the letter be included in the record unanimous consent polls show that up thank you gentlemen polls show that up to eighty percent of the american public supports a redeployment of our troops out of iraq when administration that got us into iraq with misleading information in the first place and i don't feel that that's where you're coming from i want to believe that you have more respect for the american people of our vice president so what we need to know and i'm absolutely certain that you have eventuality if you have contingencies that you aren't truly waiting for conditions on the ground to tell us when we're going to come and go because you have to be planning how do you plan how do we know how do you base the rate that troops could safely be redeployed by the month by the quarter what funding stream would be necessary to accomplish this we have no idea we cannot get that information here in the congress what will it cost to bring our troops home because we're going to have to pay for that as well and how long would it take for a complete troop redeployment congressman is i explained earlier the process of determining how rapidly we can bring forces home is really the process that we exercise when we determine the the pace and also the location really where we could reduce forces to bring down the force the surge forces the fire brigade combat teams two marine battalions in the marine expeditionary unit what we have done in those cases is we look at the security in the local governance conditions in an area to determine where we can send out our forces and thereby redeploy additional elements obviously we look at the enemy situation the area we look at the ability of iraqi forces to deal with the threats that are present that's what we've been doing that's how we rework the battlefield geometry  to bring our troops home what will cost to the involved in reconciliation and capacity building within iraq where do we get those numbers is available to the public it's not  arithmetic congresswoman as as i mentioned yesterday this is more akin to calculus than it is to arithmetic it's more akin to the political military calculus that the ambassador described earlier i think in  this hearing today and it is the battlefield geometry what we're trying to do is determine how quickly we can bring our forces look again we very much share the frustration those of in of us who have been at this for a long time obviously want the war to end as much anybody else perhaps maybe more it's sometimes said that the biggest peace activists are those who of course are actually down range risking it all but we what we want to do is come home the right way without jeopardizing the ga service i've had the privilege of working with both of you over the years from mosul to baghdad from islamabad to baghdad and every time i've just been so impressed by your leadership and we're very grateful we're also grateful for the greatest service of our military and civilian personnel serving in iraq and in the entire region making a difference protecting american families by defeating the terrorist overseas particularly grateful as a thirty one year veteran of the army national guard had i have currently four sons thanks to my wife's training who is serving in the u s military and to have served in iraq so petraeus i share a concern of chairman berman about the attacks on the green dditionally it's an attack on american personnel i was saddened to hear and my sympathy goes to the wall per family of boca raton florida for their loss i can particularly done if i i had a nephew serve in the green zone and also his son served in the green zone and on march twenty fourth two thousand and eight general you gave an interview with b b c and then you stated the rockets that were launched in the green zone yesterday for example iranian provided a rainy and made rocket launched by special group elements that are paid for that are funded that are trained that have been equipped and then directed by and large by the iranian codes force  quote what specific evidence do you have a could you tell us about that directly relates these rockets to iran well we have found fragments of the different rockets that have come in and we have also found weapons caches that again clearly are of the type that come from iran and we've detained a number of special groups members over the last six months or so including some very senior leaders in finance ears who have been relatively talkative in explaining the whole process of how these individuals move to and from iran where they are trained indoctrinated how they're funded  how they bring weapons and so forth into the country and he will lay that out for the public here at some point we have a frankly a press conference that is that is literally written and ready to go that can lay that out we've even detained for example for of what are called sixteen master trainers individuals who had multiple trips back and then were brought into back into iraq to help train others fire but it's a very very difficult tactical problem because they think nothing of launching them from schoolyards innocent civilians back yards and so forth additionally  states military and our civilian support system through the state department the answer simple question how do we get out of this mess i hope that this does not characterize all of my questions but i frankly believe that you all  outstanding public servants and you are implementing the policies of this administration so you are in a difficult box but i hope to pose some questions that really track what i believe will help us reach a solution population this little girl in the pink dresses was trying to play on the streets and we were walking through and i have great gratitude to be able to do so a general none of these are classified shots so i went to to note that this is one of the streets that we were walking on certainly our weaponry and otherwise there here's a nother one with here's a little boy so the alien compared to americans walking through the streets as i walk through these streets i also saw a lot of quality of life needs trash and lack of clean water in terms of conversations the sunni men that were there were  criticizing or complaining that they wish that they could have a government that would rid of sectarianism that's what they view their leader mr maliki as a sectarian who continues to promote divisions between the groups the good news embassador crocker is that they will be participating in the election we have spoken about the iraqi security forces i frankly believe we do not give them enough credit and that is why we're in the plight that we are in today and outstanding general who frankly believes that his forces are getting ready and getting ready better one of the generals that we met an iraqi general we decided to make sure that we let everyone know that the soldiers are well dressed but they're also i believe on the road of great competency what we are continuously presented with however is quite the contrary and let me raise the points of the resolution of two thousand and two and i read from it i obviously need to get a quick answer because my time is running out absolutely there's been a democratic election correct there to your knowledge is an amoeba it's free flowing it may be in iraq maybe in afghanistan is that not afghanistan and i didn't say that i'm not well that's my question to find itself in other places certainly al qaida in fact is throughout the region of the middle east with that in mind let me let me say general that i frankly believe that we are operating without authority the two thousand and two resolution has been complete the military has completed its task i would declare it a military success and i would ask that you convey to the president that we should now bring our troops home to  even though there may be light being made of diplomacy is it not important that we continue to work on the diplomatic in giving technical assistance to iraq all money to help build up its country yes ma'am it  is very much involved in that in fact we're going to be bringing out a number of additional advisers from the department of treasury who will focus precisely on budget execution and with that in mind then  can use the diplomacy and technical assistance and complete out and end the war so that we don't continue to have a loss of lives with two soldiers being buried in my district i believe there is no more authority for this war i believe  mr chairman general ambassador god thank you for being here today please tell our heroes that we love them and we pray for me every day one quick statement a lot of our colleagues over the last couple days have talked about the cost of the war the only thing i would ask them is think about the cost of actually losing this war general in regards to the basra operations there were some good things and a bad some bad things but they did the leader of their country a sovereign nation moved another brigade subsequent to that the one thirty is turning several times a day with supplies reinforcements casually back haul and so forth and i think the more important point if i could is one in the leader of the sovereign country to make decisions and he made one and candidly it was a bit of a surprise it was much more sudden than the very deliberate process that in fact we were actually literally working on  at the time that he made the decision based on his assessment of security issues there and then gave orders to do that he did ask for our support we said that we would provide support wouldn't be increasingly is of of a national endeavor against the extremes whether sunni or shia that threaten the state catch a very quickly ambassador when i was over there just a few weeks ago i was very problem the iraqis the iraqi government is now publicly recognizing that it has a major problem there have been two conferences to address this issue one conven by the government itself and the other at the request of the government with the united nations to try and develop a work plan we're engaged in doing everything we can to assist on  this we've recently written a reorganized our own anti corruption effort within the embassy in coordination with him and have brought out a senior officer a former ambassador to head that up expired and the gentleman from oregon mr wu is recognized for five minutes thank you mr chairman as i see it the central foreign policy problem in iraq is no longer really in iraq the challenge is what's going on in the rest of the world in the following sense when our government is so mano focused on one country on iraq we are not able in my view to pay adequate attention to the rest of the world to russia to china to india to japan to europe whether they are friends adversaries competitors or otherwise and as the world's lone superpower while great powers have great responsibilities and the challenges whether we have the bandwidth to deal with all the things that we need to deal with around the world and general i want to be very specific in this  i don't think that this is a military problem i think the uniform services have done absolutely everything that the civilian authority has asked it to do and i thank you for that but i would like to ask both of you gentlemen what are the metrics of success what are the metrics by which we reach a point where we can begin to deploy our political diplomatic and military resources to face the challenges that we face elsewhere in the world and vaster you answered earlier question that you said that you deal with conditions and not with timelines well let's put some metrics on the conditions that you're talking about and general in answer to an earlier question you gave when we can begin to start paying attention adequate attention to the rest of the world well we approach this from obviously from the focus on iraq  by which we're able to make recommendations in that regard you look at with all due respect ambassador i'm asking you about metrics what are identifiable criteria that we can measure against so that we the metrics that you put up then at what point on those graphs do we reach the point where we can redeploy our military and our diplomatic resources at the point where those metrics for an area such as unbar province which we had included that we have a provincial slide and it shows it going just like that in terms of violence and then we lay down the troop to task we have to look at what it is that we're trying to accomplish look at the local iraqi security forces and the local governance and that is what is enabled us to reduce we're in the process of seen from fourteen battalions in on by our province stand about six that is a very substantial reduction to take place in the course of about i guess eight or nine months or so i thank you general and perhaps off line here we can get both of you gentlemen to respond at what point on those charts we can define success and you know i'd be happy to take that as a written response outside of this hearing  congressman let me be again forthright with you which is the spirit that we've been in there's not an arithmetical solution that says for unbar province when you hit this number in this metric it's much more about a number of different metrics that we look at and at the end of the day this is about field this is what we pay our commanders to to do is to make judgments and to assess the situation and to say i think that we can take this battalion out of here this battalion out of here we can leave these smaller elements this is how we call them together the response by the way we've got to make sure we have medivac within the golden hour and all the rest of this and again a very complex endeavor and then that's how you are able to determine how much you can come petraeus under current operational and policy assumptions and recognizing the complexity and fluidity of this situation what will iraq look like in six months your best judgment well in part as we projected with the provincial iraqi control there will be a number of additional provinces that will be under iraqi control again i think we have the projections on there sometimes those actually come forward as in the case of say on by province sometimes they move back as has been the case with nato a province in those provinces there will be more robust iraqi governments iraqi forces will be shouldering more of the burden we certainly intend to keep the heat on al qaida in iraq and to try to reduce are clearly has to be both a military and a political solution with respect to the militia forces again there is a huge political component to that given their connection  d that will that is something that clearly has to be worked out and it is something frankly that the iraqi political leaders are very much seized with right now there will have been provincial elections and that will have enabled more representative governance in the various iraqi provinces we hope that that can satisfy the aspirations of those who made bad decision in the last elections back in january two thousand and five when large numbers of sunni arabs for example boycotted the vote certainly help the basic services have been improved in terms of electricity water sewer because there are projects ongoing  in a variety of those different areas they obviously depend to a considerable degree on the security situation but again there have been improvements in those areas and that certainly the the oil  ministry activities more of the health clinics that we have helped iraq build will be open that but by that point in time i think it's between a third and a half right now they're open and again we hope to see several dozen more of those opened over time and again i'd just go on like that down the various lines of operations that are in our joint campaign plan as you know there is not a military campaign plan in iraq or a separate embassy campaign plan it's a joint campaign plan signed by the two of us and we do link arms as we try to take this forward and try to make progress across the board thank you thank you general briefly switching to the ambassador mr ambassador noted in your testimony referred to a diplomatic surge i was pleased to see that in that congressman mccaul my colleague and i introduced a resolution last year calling for a diplomatic surge to make it the stated objective of congress to augment our security efforts by engaging international stake stakeholders in robust diplomacy to ensure help ensure their support for political economic and humanitarian assistance toward the rapid stabilization of iraq thus far we've talked about enhanced u s engagement in iraq the internet compact in the neighbor what we would very much like to see the arabs reengaging with iraq there are no arab ambassadors currently in baghdad and that is not good for iraq it's not good for the arab states debt relief and economic assistance as well certainly on debt relief some have granted it others have not that needs to move forward i think of these are very important federations thank you john the time the gentleman has expired the militarily the real question really lies as to whether or not the iraqis have the ability to do what they need to do politically to move forward and really comes to i think the question  we've seen a steady decline in the coalition of the willing in iraq and i would ask both about sort of general petraeus whether or not it's disconcerting to you whether you have concern about the lack of involvement by the greater free world what's happening in iraq today the lack of involvement congressman that that  international involvement is very important but it can take different forms we have got good strong coalition partners there are roles may transform over time the australians for the kinds of efforts that the congressman was just asking about i think are so important to have the arabs more engaged with iraq again not as military coalition and the occupation within iraq today and our allies in reverse the first gulf war where that was not the case where most of the burden was placed on the rest of the world we're paying certainly our fair share and that that's not the case in this circumstance and that's representatives of the parliament in the first couple of months of this year that they are able to come together and make the tradeoffs across sectarian lines to get through some complex mr natur and set the record for consecutive votes made is willing to miss votes with me to ask questions i of course i'm not opposed in the next election but so each member will have to make a decision  politically i think we all want our troops to come home but i think we want this to be done in the most responsible efficient way possible with respect to the cost of the war there's been a lot of discussion about that and i think  actually a lot of members of both sides agree with the fact that the iraqi people with their oil revenues a fifty billion dollars surplus and that the stakeholders in the region need to begin to step up to the plate in terms of financing this operation and i think you're going to see a growing again a growing movement in congress towards but as we talk about the cause i think we also need to talk about what is the cost of failure how much will that cost not only the american people but the to what the iranian government is now doing to us and to our troops in  iraq congressman perhaps i'll take the first one in the bass or can take the second one and if i could just before just to recognize the tremendous job that was done by three corps headquarters out of fort hood first cab division now fourth  tter division others from fort hood for fort sam another great military and elations in texas and also air force bases and so forth all that played a very key parts in the surge and really the operational level happen again with respect to al qaeda how the weather or how the ethno sectarian conflict might prove back up whether that could lead to fragmentation of iraq bring other countries into it produce  variety of different regional stability issues or how it could lead again iranian influence to expand and also perhaps to cause a disruption in the global economy all of those are issues that i think are central to the national interest that we have in trying to get iraq right to get reasonable progress  bombing other nations made calculations and came to conclusions as a result of that withdrawal particularly syria and iran as to what the u s would or would not be willing to do of you and we're very appreciative for what you're doing and my comments are i want them recognizing that you are here doing your job carrying out orders it is the orders that i have troubles with my first concern as to why i believe we must immediately have a plan in place to immediately start redeploying because of the breaking of the back of our military of these soldiers and you know what that cost is and i'm here to tell you general i am very concerned about the complete brutalization of our military in this process and this is the elephant in the room that we continue to try to gloss over and i get tons of calls in my office every to one of my town hall meetings where soldiers who have served their duty come back with great complaints the way we treat our w and our veterans is despicable and as we talk about this surge even the generals of thirty thousand surge that we've had in place has caused a noble stress on our military and then secondly with  the slow down in order to sustain it at one hundred forty thousand troop level will cause measurable harm and i'm not just talking about the physical harm i'm talking about the mental stress we've had nearly two hundred thousand of the fifty five hundred sixteen thousand soldiers that have served in iraq nearly two hundred thousand have been over there on their second tour sixty three thousand on their third tour and about twenty eight thousand now moving on to their fourth tours of duty i'm not telling anything that you don't know but one fact is glaring out thirty percent of every one of these troops that have served in iraq are suffering from mental health problems i'm not even counting the women in uniform and it is for that reason that we need to plan a reply i mean out the other reason the six and a half months you may not say we're going to end this war i might not it i'm saying and hope but the american people are going to end this war and they're going to come to the polls in november they only speak loudly we need to have a plan in order so that we can move out i think one piece that is missing is this great reluctance to understand the impact of iran iran is a major player in this i recall you're you're a student of history and you know full well what happened  a lot of us did not want to move russia russia was a problem but we had to deal with other countries who we did not agree with in order to come to a conclusion this war must stand for the sake of our military our military is weaker today than it was five years ago iran is stronger today than it was five years ago it is no wonder that in the recent action in bars where there was a settlement for peace who negotiated it iran where was it negotiated and iran got civil war upon civil war here these folks have been fighting for centuries what are we going to do in the next six months this power us commander going to deal and look soldiers in the face send them to their death knowing that this matter is coming to an end the american people are going to say it's coming to an end there's going to be a change in the presidency and we cannot continue with what the brutalization and the back breaking that were doing to our military i got to and the second time the moon has expired thank you very much is a gentleman from south carolina with my apologies for and really in sort of three phases you've been completely successful we ask you to go depose a madman who we thought was dangerous to us did that complete success second phase disrupt terrorist networks no further attacks the united states scored that one as a success two third phase i wasn't completely sold but the idea of a surge seems to have worked in terms of the military consequences of creating this security space for them to decide questions now of course we need to make those decisions so in each phase our militaries accomplish exactly what we ask you to do and ambassador crocker said something very helpful in your testimony sir you said that essentially we are supporters of their democracy of iraq's democracy but we're not guarantors of their democracy maybe that's my way of phrasing it not yours but i wonder general ambassador what would be the warning signs that we are going from supporter status to guarantor status it would be impossible and it would not have any effect even if it were possible so i don't think the circumstances under which this would arise it worries me actually your answer worries me because it would be no warning signals for you that we have gone from supporter to guarantor i think there is a point at which you clearly go from support again to or say that we will stay indefinitely with that that would be the warning sign that way that no we can't stay indefinitely we can't stay it's some point you have to say we supported you but we're not going to guarantee you agreement as i noted in my testimony to give our military the authorities and protections it will need when the security council resolution expires at the end of the year we will cooperating with iran or is it strength in that he's able to show listen i can turn it on or turn it off as with all these i think there are a number of factors that probably or play one of them is probably related to the reason for the cease fire in the first place back after the violence that was precipitated in the holy city of karbala by his militia forces that that damaged the image of his movement  and i think there is concern over the political ramifications of continued violence that is clearly laid at the feet of the militia which the population actually has begun to  against there's not a blank check there just because he is cloaked in the name of the solder movement and has the lineage that he has if you will and so in that sense i think is very much based on concern and also a sense frankly that if it did play out as well they could sustain some pretty significant losses our days are that the time of the gentleman has expired the gentleman from california mr costin is recognized for five minutes thank you mr chairman i too want to thank ambassador crocker and general petraeus for the good work that you've done to the kudo's that the rest of my colleagues have couple different questions a lot of them have been answered we know that there are a number of factors that have allowed us to reach the reduction in violence over the last year among those as you've stated in the agreement that we've reached civilian conservation corps kind of concept there is the job training and reintegration program there is basic education there is skills so you believe you have the resources to successfully mainstream all of these within the next and i don't have a lot of time and i've got a long time we've got to go get there nearly a billion dollars total all right i think they want to learn more from the bosphorus situation i think it is a good case study in many of the questions i had about winners and losers and how well they performed and whether or not maliki's credibility is increased as a result of this i think you've answered i'd like to go on was raised and it's been discussed over the last year as to whether or not the right form of familiar with it the current political framework is based on pluralistic democratic vision that while admirable is entirely unsuited to resolving the three way divide it ignores the underlying issues and expects that a consensus will emerge simply by enacting a liberal constitutional legal order he goes on to say that poorest of democracy will not take root unless the national political compact recognizes and accommodates the fears and the aspirations of the iraq community and they talks about some other factors and i'd like you to comment whether or not the expectation that was going to be terribly frustrating doing what you guys do every day but do we have the right mix here to have a expectation level that we can reach in the next year our forces successes in the considerable areas where there has been a success our hearts are with you our minds have some reservations but thank you for your patience here and and good luck