next case we have for this defender's office and i did almost exclusively exclusively do not like work and so i took this argument today your honour's because i wanted to impress upon the court that as i review this case with my experience miss buckner would say my client was saveable her attorney had done simple things she was a saveable client this was a case that could easily easily have gone the other way it starts with the ball changes are everything in these cases and for an attorney to stand up in front of a judge and simply say we have no position your honor i take no position on whether or not actually choose a goal that can never be counsel you reference your experience and i too have experience so handled the abuse neglect cases for about four years straight after being an assistant public defender representing parents and also have to be guardi am representing children and we know that in these cases we have reports from the various service providers who are working with the family and i guess my question is do you believe that those reports were inaccurate you know to states i think that's an excellent question i think there are parts of those reports that the attorney should have fleshed out more for instance when the caseworker says well she had  visitation rights but she was hadn't acted too much i was way too much and he didn't want to quote let's let's take a minute fighting to ask you know this kid is seven sometimes mama's like to hug and sometimes they're babies not because they don't like the husband just because they're seven not necessarily completing services other than here into classes i understand i understand where your honour's talking about and i don't i don't i don't know answer that i don't i don't know if there are things that are not on the record that i claim to such pyrex i mean not no no he said none that i found that i haven't seen any case which have been raised before so we'd be the first and i think there's nothing wrong with that i think the will spaces where these cases come down your honor is that if you're not objecting at those changes in the in the court and we're just changing the goal you're putting your client behind the eight ball if you're objecting to the goal change even if you can only get  another three months to do these services and another two months you keep giving your client more time that's what you do so should we be making this argument truth or be some burden it would matter i think it wouldn't matter based on what ultimately did in the best interest hearing he put the evidence on in the best interest hearing that he should have been putting on and that material if he had put the evidence on the fitness hearing like he was supposed to the judge may not have found that the the parent was unfit and may have given the parent more time and i don't think that's an unreasonable position given that in the best interest hearing we learn what we get we get further evidence we learned it from the g a o the fitness portion in the best interest hearing we were in that oh even though the only allegation against this  best interest hearing is ready to be placed back with mom i don't know that there was any i don't know about that in the record governor but i can say that that doesn't always have to happen so if if counsel that's the definition of reasonable progress she was found to be we'd be the first so i suppose my question is this looking at the in your argument about well the witnesses who didn't appear and how do we know what they'd say of course there was no about the filing of the drugs for instance why wouldn't that have been enough in itself after all these years to say you're not making reasonable progress because recent progress means in the near future this kid could be returned to you and clearly that's never going to happen but if evidence could possibly have been presented that for instance would have addressed that well and i think that was the other issue that we had your honor is there were there was evidence that was unfortunately put on not until the best interesting there was evidence that mrs butler had actually been doing the counseling that she had that she had for she was she did go from the level two to a level one i think that's the problem your honor is that her attorney didn't show the court all that was there there's clearly clearly things there if you look at the nice evidence for the show judge see in the near future this child is going to be able to be returned i don't know where because of the reasonable progress she's not making i don't know because your honor i think part of that but also they have to stand  because of the reason yes but in the near future because of the pressures to marry this kid is going to be able to be returned it isn't i guess younger what i'm saying is because counsel didn't do his job we don't know i mean he i find it completely troubling change hearing he's saying my client has some excuses i'm not going to tell the court so we don't know but maybe there was actually something there that the court didn't know that that the court should have known before it made the decision that's that's the problem is that counsel just we was counsel making a decision not to offer to the court excuses well even if it was i can i just i guess maybe you say i just can't imagine things  issue is that counsel just didn't do the things that you need to do throughout the case he should have been objecting adamant and just come keep coming back to these reports in her lack of progress in even the two witnesses that are mentioned where they requested the continuance for those witnesses those are basically family members and so we're not even sit suggesting that we've got a couple of treatment providers who want to come in here maybe say something that completely contradicts you know what's been established so far i mean these are family members anderson anderson i guess in the end result i believe my question again been  given a little more leeway i don't know if your honour's realize this is mr harris is this the peace and murder he is that's the case and i mean this county in this case all they had to change the venue so that's sort of underlying all of this i hearings before the court so this woman is repeatedly brought before the court where it's been a great deal of time and resources trying to help the lady along javaris lee has a great many problems of her own making or not i don't know  yes her husband took the lives of many of her family members in the certain multiple life terms for that she appears to be suffering from mental problems associated with that perhaps other issues i to the court course they're subject to additional evidence but these reports come back and they suggest that this particular responded has done nothing to meet any of the goals that have been established i don't care how often does coun perhaps there was some you know some language initially where the courts are find unfit i don't think a filed at that time i think what the court is meaning is that he found the parent unfit to return the children to the parents custody and fitness hearing actually was held at the july sixteenth so perhaps of course using the same term in different meanings but the bottom line is it doesn't matter