first case up this morning is for twelve zero nine five zero three marriage cases with regard to cohabitation in they had an agreement that acknowledged that haitian could occur even though they're separate residence and in this case i believe the totality of the evidence that was presented to the court yes all the bases on the factors that all the cases cite as to what we're supposed to look for but we believe that in and there was a specific vision in section six point zero three of their agreement and section six point zero three of their agreement provided that if she was cohabiting and living in a separate residence and notified him that she could get in this case is we're only in a dating relationship because he has his separate house and i have my separate house we keep separate bank accounts we don't you know mix our ownership of a and i go home a lot at night so who would we want if you should look in what we asked the court to look at is look at each of these factors snowsuits out five factors i think the repeated and susan then a continuous exclusive sexual relationship for that period of time all the cases that have been before the public course usually see cases where they find that there is both habitation in the two to be confirming his worst fears if we parsed the statements of the trial court and by the way you know i was a trial judge twelve years myself but was a long time that we we look back as you are doing and your review you look back at his statements which gives you insight as to what some just thoughts are but what we're asking you to do is look at the whole picture of what was presented because what was give trial practitioners like myself and trial judges guidelines by you and we have five factors that have been heated over and over and over and  presented was evidence on each of those five positions and the evidence against those five positions is very small the evidence it was in again of course mentioned he says they take actions are she goes out to eat with her coworkers are occasional but they took trips with her mother and they stayed in the same room and they stayed in the same suite and they travel together to his friend's house in wisconsin on a ski trip they go to concerts together they go to medians chauffeur gather they do everything like a couple one thing i think what the judge stated is a misstatement of the evidence  before they present themselves in the same type of relationship as you or i would with a spouse i'm not a facebook or my married to one and if you look at this person's facebook relationship and i guess it's where you slice the line if you have a person that knows the rules for lack of that term and says well we only stayed together three nights then w  you're not really making a decision but if you balance the evidence then there there is very little to support it's just a dating relationship there's very little evidence that doesn't show that this is a fact of us and wife relationship you know if you look at the susan page this is almost exactly the same as the susan and susan case they kept separate residences they didn't have a joint bank account they didn't have any  know the person pays for a meal then you know the other person you know they buy things for each other they go out do you know you're shopping together and why i think another thing that is very important in this case is the way that the with someone else's family member let alone a mother secondly you know now we're talking about folks who her teenagers are the twenty sites i understand older people do different things i mean you know they go suggest but i also believe the way that the families interacted that i was starting to talk about they started out were the kids hated her or did they dislike her because you know the i'm starting date right after the divorce and she went to the intervention for his son at the hospital which shows a much deeper commitment when you go to one of those events than if you just go to visit somebody sick this is an intervention where they are trying to change that person's lifestyle and their own lifestyle in reaction to him and that's what you might do that i think the friend who went to it maybe you wouldn't necessarily have but very well but the people that were in bited to this event or intervention were family members and strong friends of the child so she's included as a family  she's included on all the holiday celebrations she's invited to his mother's home father's home the mother gives her the fact the sweater for the second sweater party twice a year and these people have assimilated her as a family member i think being a family member connotes something more more than just the de lay should she give gifts to the kids when they go back to college they shopped for gifts together for the child they give us back and forth the children show love and affection for her she does force the children towards as parents her mom comes from a hungry they all learn enough on caring to call a movie that you know his kids commitment type of test then i think that that crosses a line in addition he provided free legal services for starting from you know july of ten on he even filed actions in this proceeding for three and all of those actions he didn't charge her for they go to each other's homes they work at each other's homes they repair things in each other's home and that's what you look at what is a post wife relationship you know just that when you know i mentioned going to the store or going out to eat it's customary for husbands and wife to say honey if you got any money in your in your wallet or you know who's got money left on the master card or you know i'm out of beer cigarettes or you know what are you picking up for dinner and that's what was going on in this relationship and that's what we show it we showed is a long term pattern not just for six months or five months or ten months this is venting system they tell each other they love each other which is not unusual dana to say that but every morning every night they call each other heath i mean they're comfortable that he stays over house he doesn't have a razor doesn't have a tooth brush doesn't have yoda and uses her that's pretty  awful relationship some husbands and wives don't allow that but i'm just saying that you know that this totality of how they interact and their known it in the community as a couple and their own knowing the internet  marital separation agreement if you put more terms in determinate maintenance that is a basis that can be considered and it will show that those terms mean something i know that mr willoughby argues that that's just doesn't mean anything it's the same standard i don't think so with him what it is both parties acknowledging cohabitation can exist in separate residence we've negotiated some terms associated with that and in this case we believe the patient has been shown even though they have separate residences and one of the problems that always occurs in these cases and i know my time i won't go to far is that people will go home at night by the hair and face and they will you know maybe live without heat and then come back you know weekends and not spend the night or that type of thing in an effort to avoid the terminations of maintenance and i think it's important for you in your position to help people in my position is for will these physicians and on the bench to know where is that line divided not just you know well the judge said that so you must a considered a must not have considered and i think we need to say if you hit these five factors what is going to happen you know if you prove all five facts like i believe you did here and the judge says sorry so i just mean that you know the next case if the judge says ok he never does that mean there's no standard i think what we need probable is standards the can be in force and i believe this is a group that will give you the opportunity to do that he asked the question to me and the record and i are supposed to look at this totality the circumstances i said we responded yes and i must go single out a thing one thing or another the whole picture yes and i your date is not supposed to be nice to your family i hope she is if your son has a problem and she has a psychology degree a master's of psychology that she would show up and be supportive that's not what it ate that close to de facto a marriage this is a dating relationship they join their own separate space they want to separate space they help out people as friends would do close friends as just poked pointed out with a friend they'd show up your kid was in trouble yes and if you happen to be dating and she has some insight and counseling something like that it's nice that she would show up contrary the evidence was not that she attended every family function it was specific times which she had attended family functions but she didn't attend them all they spent holidays together not my experience with a married couple i mean you know it's your turn to pay my turn to pay i mean i think that's not what married people do i would submit they always if they did travel together they always like dating people do th who looked bad he applied her all the evidence he knew the law and he said you know this isn't close to marriage in my mind now  mr scott has to i'm sure you know they don't go anywhere together they only visit can i be in the same room with each other but that doesn't mean the truck or i would submit got it wrong which is i think that this is a standard matter of fact they keep separate residences not a controlling factor and so i don't see the significance of that it does there was another pause in there that never came up if  can you use your written opinion or anything like that it was nothing like that like that that we could have made that something wrong so i think it's a slippery slope if we open this pandora's box seventeen on weekends frequently they go on trips some weekends they go on weddings they go to events that her her tacky sweater party through work they go to work events so it's much more than that  justice for you talked about holidays they spent christmas thanksgiving fourth of july easter and valentine's day together with families with extended family and family events they have birthday parties together they always stay overnight on each other's birthdays there's evidence of where she took his family to not only his fiftieth birthday but forty ninth birthday which was a food restaurant and one thing i thought was kind of thing as soon as we filed  showed a level different than just i'm buying a necklace or i'm buying sure vulture he bought her a gift certificate for shields so she could go out there and get boots for her dogs because they run at the parents home and that was a very specific get she bought him a special seat back four years car because he has a bad back when his son was problematic she bought him a safe in a special lock or gears bedroom so these may be cheap may not make it through this super level of dating but there are more couples gifts of like i know what you need i know what you want and these are specific although she gifts that show the level of the relationship and for five nights a week he doesn't stay all night sometimes two hours sometimes it's all not it's till late at night and i think it got focused on six to fifteen hours based on what he said and i think that that doesn't if he steps back