yes ok i'd like to bring to order the south burlington city council meeting of monday october fifteenth twenty eighteen we just came back from a lovely tour of the allard square building on market street there ready to start moving it well they say the whole be moving in the twenty third there still are some finishing touches for sure but a few you  know if you watch fixer upper or any of those places it's like the day before they're doing all the less stuff so our first regular session item is a pledge of allegiance so please  expeditious thank you so item three agenda review are there any additions deletions or changes in the order of agenda items seeing none will move on to four which is a possible executive session to discuss pending or probable litigation to which the city is a party would like to move that the council make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge of the confidential attorney client communications related to pending or probable ok so hopefully we'll be back at seven fifteen and what that stands for that's the insurance past that we don't need to recommendation with a settlement of potential legal claims brought against the city for the purpose of avoiding protracted comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda are there any comments or seeing we'll move on to announcements in the city good i have to go through my calendar going thing so i did it tended less thursday or two thursdays ago i guess the community collaborative they had a meeting here and gave us a pretty impressive update on how well the the the collaborative is going the panel included three they're in the process of hiring someone left i guess so they're in the process of of replacing one of the therapist but they all spoke and the woman i can remember name who is that howard that manages the program also spoke and it was it was really wonderful and the statistics certainly show that we need this program it's there are quite a  few calls and visits for this community that they attend to and there's a police chief there and can't remember who's the other person on the panel i can't remember but anyway there was  know really very positive feedback about how effective the program was and how they're kind of reducing some of the callbacks by the police and getting people into therapy that they need and they also some of the people i don't know if many is an exaggeration so i'll just say some of the recipients of this they were pee in their homes will reach out to the therapists another time at other times versus calling the police and using that process to to get the help they need could i yeah i forgot the community justice center director lisa vendor invited people to attend coming home yes it's accurate energy which i didn't and and it was a very powerful documentary and it kind of ties into what you were saying and just to put it out there it is still playing it's playing throughout the state of vermont it was in burlington a week ago i believe it's in essex and then it will be in my and other places throughout the state free and open to the public but they are talking about the importance of community for receiving back comics and bringing them back into the community and there are studies that show that the rest of the visit rate is lower for those that go through this program which means it's escaping me right now but where you meet with a group of community members and then your your project kind of your case manager just to check in on you see how you're doing develop a relation ship and i believe it's thirty percent fewer  you know go back and actually you know commit a crime to go back into prison so it's it's a pretty effective program so people can look into it if they're interested here in south  unsure and find out more about it if you're interested in being a community member who would be participating and developing you know a community so that people can be integrated and not feel so yeah outsider which is often a cause for criminal behavior so i also met with kevin twice with the library board to the librarian and the president of the library board to really continue to discuss and plan for the engagement with the public about the bun vote i also  library that's right there were two one of the librarian one at market central to meet with the public alone is put together a really good slide deck about the proposal and the building and the cost and the pluses  and so i've been speaking about the city hall aspect and then patrick le duke speaks about the library and its actor buttes and then jennifer copeman speaks about the  senior center so those are going well not extremely well attended but a lot of good questions and i think we're addressing those questions well enough for as well as we can i too went to the firefighters dinner and i guess that's all i have to report plus one thing yes this sunday trunk spooktacular by the rec department twelve to three bring your kids to the middle school trick or treat trunk or treat by the rec department so bring your kids a bunch of fun things at the middle school sorry just picking up their hell on about the public information sessions i just want to let the council know that so boo wife will arrive in mailboxes this week so blue life the fall version has i think a four page or more spread on the community center my understanding is that the library board of trustees are facilitating a neighborhood canvassing meeting this week and the new trifold are the two brochure updated brochure will be available for that use ads will be in the other paper on ten eighteen ten twenty five and then an insert will be an actual insert on the  edition that goes out eleven one there are various media t v media interviews that are being arranged including one on the i think on the twenty ninth and we're coordinating on a production this friday i think right now the public information sessions just ten sixteen at six thirty pm at orchard school so this wednesday tomorrow ten twenty three a chamberlain ten twenty four a total and then you have your joint public here public meeting  public information meeting with the school board at your regular city council meeting on eleven fifty five so the night before they'll be a joint meeting with the school board here is partly  the night before the election here as part of your normal meeting and then there we're going to have a lot of diagrams and pictures up at the library because h and m is now open and as you might also know target is scheduled to open on sunday i also wanted to let the public know and the council is aware that the council has entered into a multi party agreement to be part of a conservation effort to conserve approximately three hundred acres of land the so called all clear farm of which the council in the city are involved in one hundred seventeen acres but that closing happened on of documents to sign for that so that will happen wednesday at eleven thirty where we're sad and happy i suppose for jamie mills sergeant mills who many of you know is retiring brewery and williston and but on the better side we swore in a new officer michael gazan last week and he will be attending the  academy in february just a just a general update the negotiated negotiations are ongoing with the three bargaining units for having a special meeting with all three of them on health care related issues week this week isn't it this weeks and so nothing to report by way of conclusion with those negotiations with their ongoing there cordial there are good discussions  paving as you've also noticed in the community is ongoing right now campbell avenue is being repaved from kennedy all the way down to the four corners stop near the police station with limited access  depending on the day tommy also one of the thank you for your organization of the fire department recognition dinner talking to the team members who were there they were very they were very and genuinely appreciative of the community support so think thank you all for that and think the organizing committee the economic development committee will meet for the first time on the twenty second should be next monday  it's an organizing meeting and beginning to consider a work plan the first meeting of the dog park task force was thursday of last week and i understand it went well and then lastly i am attending and a gar  briefing at the national guard at the air guard on wednesday to get an update on the status of the construction projects are you guys going to out and see who got invited good and so this will be three to fill the five vacancies we have will now have six six one jamie lee oh right we have three scheduled for the february class at the academy and he'll be one of those three so he's been doing his pre training with the department until february and then he'll join the february training class at the academy graduated yes you know by the end of the academy which is twenty six weeks when you get out of the academy you then have thirteen weeks of field training before we release you as a full ready to go police website or have they always supported our website defer to tom on their website question time in the disbursements this month this is a new vendor  vendor enhancements to the program that we're continuing to make we're actually going to be adding the clerk base platform into that so that we don't have separate fees in the future for both clark base and the web site management page so this is another step of our laser feature that integrates our web page information you'll receive it the same will just be a different platform that he go to to get the information something that have experience and that members of the public are reported to me is that when you look up something you know use the search engine to look up something about you know a documentary something that we go on to the old page quite regularly and then if there's an error right i'd consider a motion for accepting the consent to genda as presented considering in signing the dispersement approving minutes for september seventeenth and october first say that so now we're a little early but polls here so you're ready to rock so will go on to item nine a presentation on sustainability so what i'd like to do is to in the first few minutes give you a little update on a schedule for how we would want to  commission been discussing and then talk about a schedule for some of the other aspects of sustainability and i realize that this will bleed a little bit into the next item so if you'd like i'll just sort of raise this the ideas in the questions now to get sure to have you begin to be thinking about it and then counsel really whatever you'd like to switch over to the next item and then and then go so there's really t aspects of what the way that we've been thinking about the question of sustainability over the last little while this photo by the way was taken last fall on kennedy drive which is pretty cool  the first one is just a little over a year ago in august of two thousand and seventeen the council adopted a resolution joining the vermont climate coalition which pledges to meet or exceed the obligation the united states and the paris agreed in the paris accord  and secondly which has as we all know some pretty significant massive climate change goals with it and then secondly but in many ways closely related to our questions about the long term community of fiscal sustainability and city in many ways as as i said these are linked subjects they're not the direct objectives maybe separate but a lot of the same tools that are applied about smart growth in how we build out are related so what i want to talk about with you for a couple minutes here and would love to get some feedback is sort of a  general schedule for how we might talk about some of the sustainability subjects so this evening as i said my primary efforts and focus has been on following up from your last council information as well as the regional planning commission who's been in touch with these folks over the last year to sort of frame out exactly what we'd be getting there's a lot of things we could ask for do we want to help to refine that down to what is most useful for south burlington on november nineteenth we would love to come to you with a request to prove a grant application of the state of believe heard our folks over at volkswagen a few years ago were  an award that they can pass out in different ways the state of vermont has decided to allocate the bulk of the money towards the heavy fleet improvements school buses things like that but a portion of the money also towards getting electric vehicle charging stations up and running and this can be in public sector it can be parking rides it can be private sector can be residential the first round of it the state has been fairly conservative and wanted to wanted to sort of learned from from doing a trial so the statewide allocation is only four hundred thousand dollars for forgetting charging stations in i've  had a meeting with folks from the energy committee and we're putting together a strategy for something that would be both the school and the city about getting some charging stations in around various parts of the community in the places that would be the most the most likely candidates for being used so places like city hall the future city hall should the voters choose to  dance that in early november which we'll know by then school district property possibly veterans memorial park and possibly one or two more locations we're really focusing on areas where people will be high volume people using it there's three different levels of charging so the first level is just a plug in the wall it costs the amount of a plug in the wall so that that's not a big cost the third level is what's called the d c fast charging and they can be twenty to thirty thousand dollars per unit they charge really quickly but they also cost a lot of money so the sweet spot is really these level two chargers which is what you see for example under that artistic tree of healthy living in less than various places the install of the unit itself is probably in the three to four thousand dollars what we've been working with the vendors on and working with the state to clarify is making sure that whatever we install comes with all the warranties comes with all the maintenance contracts that kind of things it's probably closer to about eight grand per pair so that they tend to come in to see park it you put it between two parking spaces  two yeah following that following that in early december we'd like to really start to ramp up some of these discussions we've initiated a conversation with our departments starting with public works around how we would be looking at level of service so you've heard some discussion over the last few years about when will be when would we need another plowed route or when would we have sort of a tipping point a different service a part of that is what are the how do we measure a level of service in by different departments and what does what's acceptable to the communities so how long between a road getting plowed for instance or that kind of thing so it's really these two things go hand in hand which is the level of service and what are the tipping point so we're going to start  conversation and and come to you in early december on that subject and then on december seventeenth assuming all works out well we'd like to come to you with a more full report on the city's energy usage the status on what we've been doing with regard to the climate accord and an outline for a strategy for the coming period of time and having met with some folks from the energy committee over the last year in talking with lots of other committees really what a big pool of of of these folks and of mine in this area would be to work on how to embed  these subjects into our day to day decision making so not just its own project to go and do this but how do we have that into our decision making such that for example when the city hall car came up for lease renewal first question is is there a way to do this it's a more energy efficient way so how do we do that for all of the actions that we do so that's a song we'll be talking about that time so i don't have to too much more to present this evening on this but i want to give that outline see what your thoughts are on that does that sort of sound like what you're looking for over the next little while on this because there are other other things average a little bit on november fifth sure  doing work for doing a full analysis of cost benefit of development we think we can probably get a quote from this company urban three and or others to see what what the cost is and what's  what's what's involved in a proposal so that you can evaluate and see if that's what you're looking for not so we would ask the just to build on that so we would be approaching some possible vendors or researchers and asking them what are the kinds of questions we should include in a study well i think that's the best the that's some of why we're communicating with our partners already so that we're not just asking them what should we do where we're learning from others about what they've interested students from what we can certainly do that i think that the questioner got right and i think one of the questions for you all in that case would then be how there's the benefit of having folks who are local in doing that if it's something like grand research then it probably needs to be scheduled out several months in advance so it might not start until there's more professors at the table than there are back here but start on a time line of research rather than  a consultant but we can certainly pursue both both possibilities for you if if it's practical love to you if the grant locally you know and support people who live here and work here and care about this community the chance to develop this there of the expertise or it doesn't work until we could do it next august  least have a oftentimes when we apply for grants and things we can a rough proposal so that we know the scales of what we're talking about so that's what we might we might have for here is what might something like that  know it's possible we we did to put in this past year a request to the regional planning commission and we did get some award with them there needs to be a clear link to transportation and transportation infrastructure for the regional planning commission to to fund and we always keep our eyes peeled for other opportunities as well when you have residential development or commercial development that there is of course a new property value increase that would be in the form of property taxes that would be collected by the city so that would be the benefit the cost however would be the need to service sewers roads emergency services and so that's what we're looking at with the remaining undeveloped land what would be that balance how much would it bring in and revenue to the city in order to pay for our employees and the services and maintain them right and would they be manc maintain that's why a lot of these people are here tonight ok but i'm just trying to point out for you that we've also put it spent six hundred five thousand plus one hundred seventy dollars to help with conserving three hundred seventy five acres in the south part of the southeast quadrant so before you start saying all i see is construction everywhere please be aware that there's also a lot of land that has been conserved and we're trying to figure out through this cost benefit analysis of the remaining undeveloped land what's it going to cost to develop it or we if the slammer developed would it be in the interest of our residents and that's where we could lend that's would lead me at least to the question if we need to develop it how should it be developed or if it's more interesting for our residents and that's both at greenfield areas and also at existing areas it would look at what are the factors that economically are most beneficial and other areas something like this would be assessing what are the financial elements of of different kinds of development the goal with something like this is to look from a long term fiscal response fiscal perspective it's not necessarily to in and of itself say this piece of land should be conserved or not but it is to lay of the facts from a fiscal perspective which is not something that we've historically done and city to help with the decision making about what areas should be left open what areas should be developed in one manner so it's to provide a foundation for part that i think having heard from people over the last couple of months that's an area of great concern is the socio cultural fabric of the city at what point are we tipping beyond  for us all to look to see what are the natural manners by which we can assess that question so one manner that that can be assessed is the amount of developed  open space or i should probably use a different word active open space and the amount of passive open space that we're looking for is a community perv thousand population or per total acreage that's that's a facet of measuring what you're asking about it is necessarily the only one but there's different ways that we can assess and the comprehensive plan does do some of that in terms of our goals for a much affordable housing what level of service for emergency services how much recreational  programming these are all aspects of the socioeconomic desires city and i think we're we're very open to any other ways in which council or the public would forward has this coming before the committee that they then can prioritize you know how land should be you know used or not used you know and bring in all of the different pieces economic development effort to prioritize the open spaces for conservation in conjunction with the committees or would it really be the committees to take that it appeared on this would be something separate think if the council wanted four o it could be done with committees it might be helpful to have at least a consultant if not doing it actual environmental analyses then maybe helping to shepherd it through it most likely would be a separate firm then somebody who does a cost benefit economic analysis is just very different skill sets doesn't mean that they can't be happening in parallel they can't be coordinated but it's probably not the same firm doing that  d i would probably recommend that however we do it that the starting point is to would be to do a review of all the work that we've done to date and help to see what what do we know so far from the two thousand and two open space study were if i were doing a study for a pension i would take a map and i would say what's the worst case scenario or what's the current state what's the future worst case scenario and what burden does that provide put on the city as well as an enhanced revenue whatever it is but that's where your cost benefit comes like like how many four storey apartment buildings can fit on these properties because it's zone for it and it might be developed that way right versus the southeast quarter how much land is left to be developed and what sort of p u d s could fit there or might fit there and how many houses where they support and then take all of that in the consideration say and then the total traffic is going to be x right the total met a c o two and you know whatever else is going to be y mid that sort of fits into this sustainability question which is you've got a bunch of dials in the city and some we can turn easily and some we can't and some we can turn to regulation so we can turn to the energy committee just urging people to behave differently right to the point you're trying to turn them to the right spots to match the paris accord right yes although the cost benefit one is very small in at least as developed in the sort of cosy type presentation you had the summit was really focused on the municipality as a corporate entity so what is our fiscal bottom line as a as as a the city there is also the much larger question of how are we collectively as a community being as efficient as we can be pursuing sustainability but they are the related but but a little bit separate focus is if that's the the what we had been beginning to look at was really the fifth the fiscal sustainability of the municipality our tracks rates our services but we can do this however in my to do what it could to could be more there's no magic to how we do it could could we look at i know the planning commission and he shared with us i think there are six different design got each one is a little bit different and understanding maybe the economic impact the differences between all six might also help with determining where you know where in the community each of those p d s might be an appropriate development model and where not or maybe some of them are in an appropriate given the cost benefit isn't there it looks good sounds good but it just is going to end up costing more in services and and we won't get any taxes to cover that so it may not be where we want to go at this point because we're already at you know we have a baseline we are now i would also hope that leaving the land open would be we'd see those numbers as well i would hope it wouldn't just be developed this way or develop this way or develop this way that would be as is this type of development that's that type of film and i'd really like to see the you know that that baseline number oh i would agree i mean i think we need that too because there's a real interest expressed by the public in too many ways to numerate that that open space value is a high value  we're not just talking about let's develop everywhere and some places will be less infrastructure less paved over impervious surface surfaces the you know i would look at it is what you're suggesting in a cost benefit is more of a tangible view of because it's money it's fiscal right but then the intangible which kind of you just referred to in some respect meghan is the socio cultural sustainability of the city that makes it a vibrant appealing place to live that people love and you can't it's hard to put a dollar figure on that and it's hard to figure out how you integrate that into the into the economic piece but it kind of has to be so all i all i suggest and ask i guess is that as we do any work from a cost benefit perspective fiscally  tangibly because numbers are tangible that we always have the perspective from an intangible perspective we're trying to preserve and we must preserve the socio cultural fabric of the city that makes it a great place to live which is what seems to concern an awful lot of an awful lot of folks and that's that's not the easiest thing to put up on a screen or figure out on paper yet i think we have to keep in mind with everything we do and i think that there's the there's there's relatively concrete examples of that and relative and less so but as a simple example some of the things which make communities vibrant and interesting like festivals or the existence of say higher ground burlington probably in and of themselves they're not a fiscal winner in terms of the demands on our services but as a totality what they bring to our community is a vibrant community that has people who want to live here who have strong jobs that make for strong economic activity so it's i hear what you're saying and we will see we can do it all that the article that roseanne sent us that had was f full study so i went to that and i read it today not every single word but i read a lot of it and then they had a footnote in there that i sent to all of you that came from another report so kept digging down that was done by women in dead deb bright who used to she was a state government yeah i did land evaluation current user some issues really break out and  she did an r o y on conservation for mine and there are some statistics there that and then the other report the longer report really talks about the really the value in dollars this is across the united states in terms of having forests in place to prevent erosion so you don't have flooding wetlands that you know can help with the flooding and you know the irene's and all the storms that we keep getting it doesn't appear as if those were you know once in a hundred years because we've gotten three of them in about ten so they seem to be more of a regular occurrence with global warming so i think there already are some statistics in dollar figures that you could look at help put in a perspective of what open space or forests or you know you know how you develop the natural world can pay back to a community in lack of devastation which is really costly bridges rush washing out those kinds of things which then come back to the taxpayers have to pay for it we've got to replace the bridges tom just want to say in this cost benefit analysis i want to lose one of the points that i had to make earlier i don't think the cost benefit analysis is going to be the same for the entire city because we were going to look at this almost by an undeveloped parcel by undeveloped parcel i don't know if that's possible but there's going to be some parcels were just makes sense that there are houses there again like to be sent and that's are just bring it back to as i've been trying to brush up on this topic this very comprehensive and complex topic and talked with other counsellors i think it's really useful for us to  revisit how we've done in the past or where we are now in the prioritization of different lots of land that we'd want to conserve more than others they are clear property is for this way for city services it makes sense to preserve it to conserve it i just think in this conversation as you look at the cost benefit we're i don't know where we are with that and how much we want to make that public but that's an important piece of information that i want to see out of this and yet any of these efforts what are the ones that we want to conserve more so than others that look already at the squadron and we make use of these studies and i think that polls you know mention that we could have a consultant walk our committees through the studies in order to prioritize that that's perhaps a money saver set so there is depth brighton had done years ago the analysis that you're speaking about in open space he also did a state wide one on types of development it was very generalized it was for the entire state so there maybe some aspects of that  that have some relationship in similarity i recall her giving a presentation and saying that really that if you really want the winter type of development in rural vermont it's a second home worth more than five hundred thousand  kaufman's point she said that doesn't necessarily make for great community but as a direct physical thing that's that's a good winners and so there is a balancing of all that kind of thing what take this back and think on this a little bit  first looking at which lands parcels undergo parcels would best be conserved for those reasons and the ones that should be there or not should be but seem to make sense from a cost benefit perspective to develop them that's what i think i would want your question raised which is what would be not just quest benefit analysis of land development you need to think of the climate you need think what cost has increased more for the area and you haven't done i haven't heard anything like that in these discussions you need to think in a holistic way you need to look at all the buildings more people and you're pretty worried just to see one thing that dr silverstein i don't disagree with anything you just said climate change is a very press problem for the human species i'm just concerned that sub religion is not an island we have to look at it from a regional perspective i think the c c r december seventeenth report answer this question partly well i don't know that they're going to answer it though certainly i guess what i'd like to do is i'd like to take this feedback and see what's the best way to  to to develop the right studies at the right times for me so i may shuffle some of this around a little bit i don't want to sort of artificially say we're going to the cost benefit analysis in this day and a climate plan on x day here for really the council's interested in seeing something that's a little more can join dental than reassess and do within the same overall time period but it may not be one and then another one six weeks later where you will you look at the production of c o two you here in south burlington what you consider the things i think that that's that's a significant goal in here and i would get with the council's ok would echo somewhat calcite shouldn't i just said which is that from a climate perspective we do need to be looking at the partnerships in how we address it because transportation isn't especially just a centrally today issue here yeah i  city working to be a leader in its own efforts first and to be focusing on transportation which is the really big not back in in vermont in south burlington doesn't mean that they aren't making efforts on all the one good one good at one good point in that area is that a year and a half ago the city did a doctor requirement all new development meet the stretch energy code which is the there's the standard energy cotton state and the stretch and as far as i know we're the first community in the state we could go but are felt that was as far as we could go but i would agree with you that certainly when we had the architects design well we hope will be the the new community building with the library city hall senior center that is between a cold and a platinum so it's not net zero it's not the highest but it's  and i don't know what level of efficiency that is but they they certainly feel that they may have tried to make it as energy efficient design as they possibly could apply the existing stock but our new buildings are meeting much better and you should see standards but communicating that to the public with all your free time but i think the energy committee is reaching out and they do a lot but it is you know it is the existing stock that's so hard to change but i also just want to add that even though we don't have the regulations in place that's something for us to keep in mind share in terms of  just any other oh michael you had to look a are there any other comments people would like to make on this t economic model that i can find where where you can align your spiritual wellbeing with growth growth and sustainability of find and that's a great point but there are two aspects of there's there's absolute growth and then there's regrowth and so forth those buildings that have been knocked down you know in the last year and a half  for the absolute growth part for those lands which were green that get turned into something great then what is the cost benefit analysis of how you organize that development that led to you preserve some open and then make the rest of it in such a way that it has the best cost benefit analysis right or cost benefit period versus a lawsuit versus you know one of their outcomes there could be i mean there are other options as well i mean raise idea of having a bond vote buying out the t d r s that's something that should be discussed i think depending on the numbers that come by boat to consider buying up open space there we would see the social cultural value and i think feet beyond that some of the effects whether it's vehicle trips or it's open land outside of the community or it's air pollution one a piece of the possible but they can't his that property stays open and then some other place can have a higher density some more units per acre tree yes it is sort of like a cap and tra why i don't think we have that as a regulation now we do have regulations in terms of developments develop purpose to replace a certain amount of the trees but you don't go from a for t to a housing development that looks like a forest it's amount of what percentage of trees would get replaced but that is a requirement that's in the l d r's i mean but you know it's interesting when you think about there's a lot of developments we have well sometimes businesses have to do something nice the community  whatever in order to develop their building i hadn't thought about asking a developer to say if you're going to cut down forests you need to buy some land somewhere and start a were mostly built on farmland meadow right and now they have a lot of trees so it is possible that in the last fifty years we actually have were trees now if you count the street trees and all those developments that we had before because i mean a hundred years ago right the state was twenty five percent you know forested and and now it's roughly sixty five or seventy percent right although there's a report that it's becoming more fragmented by by subdivision not sure about the canopy it's so but you know but you're raising a really good point and then if my time in the d r p we saw a lot of applications where somebody was going to cut down trees and i'm pretty sure that there were you know the resolution was left occasions that they had to replace it so the problem you end up with is you just have to wait twenty five here other comments on this part are people happy with council members with the timeline that paul is laid out then sort of perhaps integrating a little bit with some of what the planning commission recommendations were for you so you may remember this map on the left here this was lee and alice s of areas that are currently developed in southeastern portion of the city areas that are approved or vested for development and areas that are open space through one tool another whether it's through our zoning or through conservation approximately one thousand nine hundred seventy two welding units today we have approximately six hundred approved or that have vested rights for for being reviewed and approved which leaves her the zoning as a mathematical calculation about thirteen hundred welling in its keep in mind that this is a mathematical calculation that does not necessarily reflect any of the conditions on the ground and so one of those yellows could have a large wetland in it it may not be able to be built out at full it may not ultimately whether this is how it all builds out or not we don't know this is just a street math of the zoning says one point two two welding  acre we have thirty two hundred acres in the southeast quadrant thirty two times one point two is thirty eight and that's what we are so that's the maximum build out with one final kabi out which is that this does not include  fordable dwelling units which under our bonus structure don't require t d r s to be built we've only seen we haven't seen any built yet the so so phillips has about thirty in it so it's possible that there's a handful more than that what i want to also show you this this is our southeast quadrant zoning on the right is the number of acres in our different districts and i think i should have made that one that's on the green made black color instead of the white but the green on the left of our thirty two hundred ish acres of southeast quadrant about sixteen hundred of it is the natural source protection district the next largest one is our neighborhood residential were a lot of our existing neighborhoods are and some of the neighborhoods that are currently under construction at about thirteen hundred and then we have about one hundred acres in what we call the neighborhood residential transition district which could either be conservation or neighborhoods  about one hundred fifty acres of land scuse me one hundred eighty acres of the higher density village residential and then about twenty acres of what could be the village commercial which is either residential or commercial so i just want to give you that as a as a framework for what exists in the southeast quadrant for it so all those numbers would add up to the total of the numbers acreage this is not units this is just a parcel parcel with split between the natural source protection district and in a neighborhood district the homes i have to go in the neighborhood district part of it so it's not zero but it's a pretty low number those and our schools are holding some t v ours yes those are  drive is that the neighborhood that's just been don't get in the middle of the green the neighborhood was approved prior to this owning and being in place so some of this is dealing with what exists or existed at the time  the developer of that project did work with the city to try to widen out the distance between to create over a little bit of a greens green corridor in between but for the most part development is outside of the green areas grab when the t v or program was first put into place the idea was to generally try to balance that out so that the number available had places to go we've seen thus far most of the neighborhoods that have been built  building under their maximum so we are probably approaching a point where there is more mathematical potential than there is land available but i don't know that we're there yet but i  here in in sort of larger chunks of land if somebody had three quarters of an acre of land and they got a house on it they could conceivably through the t d r program put it to infill holmes on that i didn't go down to that level for the purpose of this so this won't be if looking at the yellow wouldn't be the absolute maximum but it represents a pretty close approximation of you know there's always going to be a handful of properties that are a little bit large and minimum zoning that that didn't appear l i guess in burlington and some some of the older communities have seen a lot of innovation for that so you could see one hundred years ago that the victorian homes that existed got moved into three or four apartments and then maybe there was a backlog going on and we're seeing a lot of that to places like seattle in vancouver and portland where a second house is being put in there a little accessory houses becoming very popular to put in a back corner of the property as a way to right now we're seeing a little bit of it here we're seeing a lot of it out west but yeah the striped area is an area that is it is the area that counts not bear was mentioning that the city had just participated in the in the purchase of and so i guess i could have updated the lower half of that since the last mean to say that the closing did take place so we have we have an option to conserve at least forty acres of that with and goal of conserving the whole thing so that option is now that the next set here and i'm going to have chair of the planning commission join me in a moment to talk about what the commission's feedback was i just want to started out by saying  that at the last meeting councillor emory had had asked about or had been shown a resolution that might look at one or parcel parcels of more than forty acres that are that have working lands and and or natural areas within them so i'm going to show you a sequence of maps of how we started to filter through this and some ideas of how we could assess this this very first one is just parcels of more than four acres does not necessarily say that those four acres are undeveloped one of those is the airport so this is just a beginning of a series of maps so don't don't pay too much attention but we're going to have some questions for you briefly and in a few minutes about if you were to be wanting to assess what's open and what's not open how you would want to measure that because for instance the hill hill farm property  hundred fifteen acre parcel it does have a single family home on it presumably the the that the the average person would say that that's generally an undeveloped parcel but it's not technically it's not technically entirely undeveloped so we're going to talk about some ways in which we can help you to determine how you want to find the line between open space and development so i just that's the first filter but does it make sense perhaps coun really to have just talk a little bit about her yes absolutely and so on this map the red is the floral four acre parcel so everything in red there which is the bulk of the city is more than four acres parcel him it's a few hundred of the eight thousand parcels but they take up the bulk of the land again at this level this is making no assessment about what's on there so the human soul is on this is in that and kaymer plaza and the moment well they're merged so do you have other in for other questions you're going to answer i think that pretty much the questions that i was asked  to look at are what's the development potential in southeast quadrant and then things around the water we have that's forty acres and undeveloped i think that this probably moves into the next segment of the conversation so i can give you if you'd like maybe one more slide due to wrap this one up that might be useful so this map we were sort of bouncing around trying to figure out what's one way to evaluate what it means to be a corn corn undeveloped parcel so what i did with this map was take all the persons of more than four acres in size and then say what if we said that it's considered largely undeveloped if it's ninety percent not pervious ninety percent pervious excuse me so up to ten percent could be homes or driveways or streets or parking areas things like that that's one of fifty different ways we could do it we could do it by the number of housing units there's no magic to that to ten percent other than to say that ten percent of a four acre parcel would be a generous home with all of its driveways and all that kind of thing right so it could be we could do five percent also we just picked a number because we had to start somewhere but and then we'll talk about some more filters in a minute but this yeah this one says nothing about who owns it you see red rocks park is in there that's essentially conserved there are other pieces that are not conserved but we'll talk about that in a few minutes so different from the transit overlay district the planning commission right that's one of my maps in a moment so maybe that's a good segue to so what shall we move on to  citizens presentation and council in marines enter by a lot of discussion so you know at that meeting we didn't have any kind of back and forth so at our meeting we did have a discussion where each of us kind of followed up with our own thoughts and kind of bigger conversation and came up kind of the process of discussion basically what's up on the screen here so the bold is the motion that we've made so in general  were kind of agreeing with councillor marie's idea of an interim zoning bylaw but we had a few different things that we thought were pretty important one was that included development that might happen in the transit overlay district so that's our main court orders development corridors and travel corridors where we've talked a lot about how it's areas where we'd really like to focus development that include city center so it kind of a stop in those areas we also felt like there's a distinction between  an area that's being redeveloped versus an area that is open and so i mean we have said undeveloped open space and far sparks and like paul said that's kind of a little ambiguous how you define that but you know the idea was  that like a spot like humor which may be redeveloped you know that makes sense to do that and i know that's also in our transit overlay district but that's an example of the redevelopment there is a lot is discussion about the time as well and we've put six months there which we know is extremely ambitious but you know i think that that's a real symbol of wanting to have  the real push for city center during some of the last days you were quick to do some bigger working sessions and you know we've already talked about like maybe doing the fifth tuesdays in addition i mean we have talked about it so i mean we understand that this is hopefully going to be a concise period with a big push and i think with that there also need to be some resources so we have a list of studies that we are kind of agreed with there one of the big things that we've been working on for a while is a revision to the p d standards and this are under way i mean we for smarter development so this this would be if a parcel is developed to give stronger guidelines on what's expected and more information on exactly what types of open space we need and that open space wouldn't just be the undeveloped land but it would be portions of plants that otherwise would be developable on the on the property and breakdowns of like what types of housing or other other buildings would be acceptable so it's kind of a more defined to look at what development would look like and there's multiple different types that would be focused in different areas of the city understand that this is not something that would be done just by us at the planning commission but we really need to have kind of the buy in and how from a lot of different city committees as well as yourselves on kind of what that looks like and how that privatization works and i knew you were already just talking about that so and not just to prioritize but to really figure out what the next step and tools are and then and we left that a little open  because we understand it will end development regulations are not the only tools here and i know you have already actually been talking about some of those earlier like outright buying land you in things that are not necessarily in our purview of so i think that that's why we left that as potential tools and then the next piece is an analysis of the city's transfer of development rights program and to really delve back into exactly what it does how it works and water options you know now that it's been in place for many years it makes sense to me we take a look back none of us on the commission  on the commission when it was originally conceived and i think even some of us could really use a good as i think all of us in the community could take could use more information exactly until we were asked to look into it but it's not the first time that we've done this home or close to a big and so so league with r p g projects we're getting relatively close to having it done and that is  kind of a good reason to move east pas developments that we would like to use the new code those new land development regulations until it's done  think at least i can speak for myself that that was i think about driving piece since we were there was already a conversation about in terms owning it feels like this is something that's going to really shape potential new developments in a way that we've been talking about for a long time they go be kind of ashamed to have something else built in the next short amount of time that doesn't take into consideration new or new or look of the city has been in the past back in two thousand and five zero six when the current round when the current t r program was put in place that's what the council did back in the late eighty's when the scene if you protection district twenty and after one house was built sort of in an area that the city had been looking at views that the city did a pause on that very specific thing to put the rules in place so that you don't not occurred in the sort of six months to a year prior to the in your final piece not taco and zero also so and a study in economics and development and that's something you know you were talking about your last agenda item but i think of few of us felt like that might be such a big undertaking that it would take possibly an undisclosed amount of time and were hesitant to put that under in terms on which we really wanted to be kind of a shorter term effort but we're in support of doing that and we think it's really important magic to the forty acres that's just what councillor emory to give this is a starting point and there's no magic whatsoever to the ten percent impervious at this time other than it seemed like a reasonable number so this is a map showing what the transit overlay district is so it's everything inside that burnt red bubble so if those areas were excluded then anything along the shelbourne road corridor or anything along  kennedy drive northern dorset street and most of this sort of tech park area would would not be included so from that map to this map there's a few properties that are removed and then this map shows tries to take a leap and says using the map that you saw from the last meeting of which are the properties in the southeast quadrant and the southeastern part of the city that are either developed already or are in the natural source protection just or have been conserved or our parks or witches association land what are we talking about in terms of land here that for more than four acres in size less than ten percent impervious cover outside of a transit overlay district and which excludes those sort of essentially conserved or already built properties and that's that's what we're left with i this is a rough map it uses our twenty ten impervious surface cover we have a more recent one but in the timeline we were unable to put it into the data so i wouldn't say that this is one hundred percent accurate but it's it's a good first brush at what this represents yes for the most part there are some on the northern one there's two or three other parcels in there that are not you v m owned but yes this is what leads right this does not filter for anything  anything like weapons correct so includes redlands i did take out a couple of the large floodplain areas like the delta farm in the in the at the very northern end is largely in the flood plain i'm i mean if any anything is a lot of things you might say that replacing a fence doesn't count but in terms of significant development yes there are some examples where a condominium association as part of this as the common land has has used all the density in one part of the property and the rest of it is essentially permanently open so often sequin road there's an order to say each of the blocks have a single owner no no but a bunch of them do like you v m bunch of them do their own property along with their own property does the farm the elf army yes although there isn't one property attached to that in the south it's not owned by a hill i would say it's mostly a handful the way that we've made the data made a little bit tricky in terms of what is your intent the commission for example suggested that there be completing of the puti study and looking at prioritising open spaces i might say to these folks that based on that that some areas of the city would likely see what the draft had been in the planet development study and some other areas may be targeted for conservation in one tool another or another whether acquisition by the city for additional zoning restrictions long term in the short term there would have this additional layer of review but i think that that's only based on what we've got to date if the commission if the counsel were to say a different series of goals for the study of the outcomes than it might be a different set of answers o couple weeks ago for a listing of all the properties that have been acquired using the fund we have most of it in the in excel format we've not yet made the maps for but i can point to them on the map i one comment asking about if it's just in the southeast part or i think you know we specifically said the transit overlay district because it does include areas in other parts of the city which we think are important any time we're really talking about conserving open space our parks master plan link i think it is really important to look more broadly in the city to make sure we have those resources especially near the people like the more densely populated areas so i think that point we really should include the built your farm is a farm now but we don't own it has developed or could decide to stop farming and then what happens to it i think in particular the new v m land also is important to us and to have that conversation with them about what their long term plans are is important to any hope you know all sorts of natural resources issues for the entire county as well as just the natural state for mine i mean just university related development they could sell the land right but it does zoning today would be university related whether it's doesn't necessarily mean the university of vermont but university related having that six month time limitation i mean we definitely had members who were very strongly like they were going to vote on it last there was the six months and that wasn't everybody but it was a mix so i mean it the draft version from your last meeting and the reality is time that the council could vote for two year interim zone after six months if in fact to be sure we weren't saying our two years we have forever and just so you know they're a little want to put some urgency on it so that we weren't just kind of dragging on and leaving people hanging on you know more than six months and so it would be there and also i understand that he really works for a construction companies and maybe his motivation was different in other commissioners  opposed to all this wall of water every few years down the road you realize that pace happened too quickly too much and you cannot go back in time already happened or slow like wait till after city council meeting and on monday october fifteenth twenty eighteen and we will move on to item eleven which is a discussion and possible action on a resolution to request a public hearing on draft interim bylaws and i'll turn it over to councillor emory because she wrote this council resolution she can present it we can have a brief conversation as  council and then i would like to get comments from the public understanding that it's not a public hearing so no brief because you'll have an opportunity for the benefit of those who were here last time i just wanted to say that the impetus behind me writing this came from a long time concern of mine over the past two years i've heard staff of the city state that given the rate of development at some point development and the services required to serve that new development was going to reach a tipping point which meant our city services would be stretched so thin that we would need an acute increase in funds in order to buy both equipment but also pay pay new staff members to service  either our roads our sewers our emergency services and i know just from speaking with residents that there is a real interest in not only maintaining open spaces but being good stewards of the planet and and i think that the two combined really you know when we were having many many conversations in the city not only before this board but before the d r p the planning commission and individual committee members from residents very concerned about you know what are what was you know potentially going to transit overlay district just so everybody knows so i am not preserving anything to my benefit i see this as something that the community has been calling for and that our staff have been calling for some kind of  focus and determining priorities and so i think that when i read the motion that was passed by the planning commission and seeing that transit overlay district as a priority for that if we were going to develop that that is the most logical place for that development to happen that was something that i had been looking for and i didn't have that expertise in order to say what to exempt from from the four plus acres throughout the city and so i was very thankful to and i found that map to look at it on line but also the prioritization of the conservation of the process that we need to conserve i was glad to see that coming from our planning commission and i was also glad to see that there is a real concern to solve  r issue which i think we have to study whether or not we do in terms owning i think we have to study for various reasons and i think it goes along with the s if we are going to be putting in place new regulations for how our undeveloped lands can be developed i think that we need to know what the impact will be on the t d r and vice versa so i think that what the planning commission brought forward i see as you know source of hope that they are on board for you know what is in their immediate work plan i would like us as the economic oversight body to really look at the fiscal implications and i believe that our committees are also well placed to look at the environmental implications and the as well as the economic implications so that is why when i saw the prioritization being worked on with committees i think that our committees do tackle various facets of you know of this not that we're trying to crack our economic development is a key piece right so we have our economic development committee that's going to be meeting the first time next week we also have affordable housing we've identified that as as really you know big priority for us when we look at what the cost of land is however affordable housing seems to be only a wish list item i'm not clear that we have yet the tools in place in order to to meet those affordable housing goals that we have set as a community but we also have recreation and parks needing to have more space because they need to have fields that can lay at rest from time to time and we also have our natural resources which is also i think  you know of of key value here in the questions that we're facing by can peg should also play a role in terms of what makes sense where development should be and what kind of development it should be and what the regulations should be so those are the committees that i den a fight and i did not put a time limit on it and i'm glad to have the attorneys say that that's not our role to put a time limit on it within the motion itself or the hearing itself but i am very open to looking at what you know points we should really you know see as you know is six months going to be when the planning commission comes through with the p d s in the study of the t s and i know that the cost benefit analysis in the committee work will probably take a little bit more time i think six months is probably a little ambitious for the committee work and definitely ambitious for the cost benefit analysis but for this body that oversees the economic facet i think that we need to have that done i've heard that call from our staff now for over three years  i think that we need to see where these should go in i think we need to have that analysis i think it fits in nicely with what the planning commission has has put forward as a as a proposal  so i bring this to you i did take out the study on what are natural lands the value of our natural and what they what they bring to us there have been studies that show that comes to conserve lands what you know that every dollar we put into it the community gets nine dollars out of it that is a statewide study i certainly do not take that as a measurement for our city itself  but i do hear the you know the statement that we've had many studies performed about you know about our natural areas and so how can we really now use those studies and  own analysis using our committees using a consultant as paul suggested and trying to do something that is you know equivalent value but for much less money so don't think because we want to go through with a fine tooth comb but with the hits all the major points  paul had in the southeast quadrant but there is elsewhere in the city right outside that the traffic over the district so just focusing on the southeast quadrant by itself the two things that that really bother me about the possible development that could happen are are developments that are the subject to fifty nine homes standard rate that has happened three times at least they know of near where i live and and that's one of the types of things that bothers me that little infill that is not related to anything else it doesn't alter anything g rules and it's it's sort of like a little waste piece of land that somebody buys up in the develops and into me that that does not lend it's lend itself to really good long term land use planning so so that's a strike against doing that anymore in the southeast quarter right the next thing is for the larger parcels and you can see there are a few excluding no one farm road because that's already spoken for rate but all of those reasons remaining  that are large we got to get it right and we're not going to get it right until the planning commission gets the p u d model finished because i don't want to even let those things get anywhere near being in a started until they know exactly what the best arrangement is open space and density within those those parcels so just on those two things alone i'm ready to vote on this and we don't do it tonight but we can talk about what's the next step but i think that those two things with a laser focus plus then the you know outside the other side the squad and there are other valuable areas that need to be looked at right and in the understanding that in the long term as we go through this process there will be compromise and there will be on both sides that's an important thing that you all have to realize right that there is going to be some land that gets developed regardless of whether you want to develop or not but the question is will we get ahead will we when we allow it to  developed in the way that the developer only wants to do it or in the way that we think is best for the long term growth and sustainability of a city so that what i would like to see done and i like to have it done at the pace that it takes to achieve it correctly i have a statement because every time there's a big topic and i spend a lot of time thinking about it i like to put my thoughts down on papers i'm going to go and read this so i have the following concerns with this potential action and i did tweak this a little bit from hearing the testimony tonight right off the top i would just say that i think all three of the b a result which i support that we need to study these things that's our job as a city i just see them as being accomplished without interims owning i wasn't convinced with the answer that in terms owning was the necessary tool to do it  so i think that these can be prioritized by the council planning commission or standing committees and staff with a hard deadline and also maybe some funding to cater some special meetings so that they might hold hold to work on this directive some other concerns i believe are planning for the last forty years has sufficiently guided development towards higher density more desirable housing with some exceptions but i don't want to list those exceptions here but i have the same concerns about the act to fifty nine units i think that is undesirable i just don't think i'm not in convinced that interim zoning is necessary to to address that concern so i would say that with some exceptions while protecting many of the natural resources in the southeast quadrant i just think in terms only as a heavy handed tool that undercuts our responsible thoughtful and existing planning processes currently employed by our current staff i also want to say that this region needs more housing and i'm concerned that this action might be motivated to stop all new housing in the s e q which i agree with councillor barrett's comments in the end there's go some new housing in the southeast quadrant or at least i think there should be because that's there are places where it makes sense to put it there and as stated in our comprehensive plan we have a commitment to be an affordable community in the housing shortage in south burlington the greater burlington areas driving up prices and our land owners have rights to employ their land in line with the best uses available based on currently in development regulations which i think have been thoughtfully crafted over the decades but in full disclosure my uncle bob served on the planning commission in the r p c for many years so it's partly a family thing all right the jokes time it cost us three hundred sixty eight thousand dollars was a figure i've heard i don't see that in the budget and i'm just not seeing i'm not convinced in terms only as a necessary tool to engage in these address these concerns in another way so we have spent in both hired consultants an i just don't see a pressing need for this action especially with such a relatively short period of time as proposed by the planning commission and i i talked to somebody that was at the planning commission meeting and i was told that ted really our clue go as well as bernie gagne and we're all pretty adamant the six month thing so i don't think it was just one person from what i'm hearing so i think the six months was ok but we can go in back and forth and that we current procedures and processes in place i believe are suitably designed to continue our efforts in tandem to any new development without the awkward mechanism of having the council reviewed development projects i've spoken with inform people on how is the work the last time we used it and i just don't see the need now nor the value of revisiting that experience  concerned that the motivations of this resolution might negate the rights of property owners in the south insolvent and especially for those who own four acres or more again full disclosure i'm one of them and i'm related to a couple others three others i lost my  place so i am one of those landers and i'm related to a few others from the previous wording of this resolution in the discussions i've heard on this topic i can't support the trajectory of this resolution because it just appears to me to be somewhat insensitive of their interests but maybe that would be flushed out i also take a couple  issues with the sentence is the purpose statement we could hash it out in the purpose statement or more specifically i traffic congestion this is a quote from the statement traffic congestion is not only a hassle at rush hour the energy used to power our cars in our homes also contributes to excess level of c o two and other pollutants in our atmosphere this sentence speaks to indirect macro level societal concerns and is far detached from the practical task called for in the b it resolves i have the same concern with some other lofty statements in the purpose statement and i just want to state again climate change is a real and pressing threat to our species but i'm just not convinced that pushing development further from our population centers to st alban's or heinsberg i think that might be counterproductive to that concern as would decreasing density in our housing stock making infrastructure including public transit more efficient another sentence i have an issue with is the quotes for the past three years these s b department managers have raised the concern that our resources are being strained to an unsustainable tipping point i've been here for the past four years past few years and i wouldn't characterize their statements that way at all in our last meeting the sewer water utilization graph directly contradicted that statement and sports my impression that we have adequately pam planned for the waste water needs of our current community and future needs on the horizon i have gotten the same impression from our fire police and public services directors i think they've used tipping points as a possibility but not as something that is pressing on our concerns the last common i will make is that in terms owning will unnecessarily consume this council's attention distracting us from other pressing matters before the city because all the parts of the build of development as dan attested to last time would go through both the d r v and to this council i believe we as a council need to spend more time on the condition of our city roads potholes the traffic lights the pedestrian crossings and the line striping samandar tension i believe we also need to spend time looking at the condition of our two fire stations when was the last time they were updated do they have the space they need as the school district need the city hall building more than our station one does i think we need to calibrate our focus and city council lens on our essential services and i'm concerned the interim zoning is going to consume a great deal of our time pulling us away from those important priorities i'm also concerned about i believe we need to spend time discussing recruitment strategies i was excited to hear about some new hires in the police force but we still had open positions for far too long i think this council could talk about recruiting strategies to get more officers to serve our community understaffing our police  strains on all of our current officers i just want to say again open space is important and i fully support reinstating full funding of the open space pony through budgetary mechanisms this year to rebuild that fund for future mechanisms it makes sense to have money at the ready to buy the lands that we prioritize for conservation purposes that works respects the property owner's rights while also addresses our desires so i support the and i fully support as a top priority buying even go beyond pizza whatever food would get people to come to the meeting i would fully support tasking our standing committees to prioritize lands for city conservation i really want to see that priority list the use of these funds respects property owners rights and is emblematic of the responsible planning s b continues to engage in that hall so in a close on this remark i promise i'd also support committing the five million dollars we are about to we might be spending on a new city hall to instead be used for land acquisition across all four districts of our cities so that we can better steer the evolving shape of our city in the decades to come but this time i do not support in terms only presented with this pretext for these reasons offered well i think come you make some good points and i disagree with some point that you know into listening to party jessica and jessica right yet and talking in our break in the feeling is what caused the planning commission to come to us and ask for him to resigning is they have too many things on their plate and this would enable them to push some of the things off their plate and deal with some of the very things you've said like prioritize what lands we might want to conserve continue the work on p u d s the tenor and finalize that if we can get just a couple of those things done and let them catch their breath so they can get that done they're coming to us and asking for that if they felt they were totally under control with what's on their plate they wouldn't have come to us and asked them asked us to give them a break and i think we have i think we have a duty to do that for the well being of the folks of the city i six months due and  fact it's very quickly pops off or so i think six months is is taking pressure off of them in one way and putting perhaps undue pressure on but i'm not willing to leave it open ended like i think is in the resolution which will go two years right as it was in there you didn't put anything so i wouldn't you know i would i would calm down a good compromise or a compromise at like nine months and nine months is really seven months and let's get the job done but i don't think saying you know without interim zoning we don't take anything off their plates and that's not fair because they're saying they can't they can't handle everything that's on their plate they wouldn't come to us if that wasn't the case last time i asked jessica last time i said council made that decision without consulting the planning commission and without the input she said i said so it's kind of like put shoving it down your throat and she readily agreed that's kind of how it was and that's not the way it is this time i see this time is city government and the planning commission are on the same page and they're asking us to get on that page and give them a hand i think we have an obligation to do that so much as i don't like to stifle development i'm not sure we're stifling development with a short duration interim zoning i think we're just giving the planning commission a chance to catch up with development and then and then we move forward and i don't honestly you know see any any harm in that but i'm not i don't think going to go along with so i don't know when we propose amendments but i'm not going to go along with open ended that will allow us to go for two years because i think that then leaves the window open the door open the ok we can push it off a week or two weeks because we've got two years i don't want to do that but i think you know i pick my months you know it just sounds dumb as hell but you know  when my wife was pregnant it was nine months was a long time and it was a short time it was a long time i oh my god has become so you can do things again and then on the other hand it was a short time oh my god how we're going to get ready in time so it's nine months of the compromise commission a break you know my husband serves on the planning commission and it drives them crazy when they are part way through something and then a new project project comes along and they have to drop what they're doing as important as it is to take up this new item and then that takes four or five meetings so two months goes by and then they get to go back to what they were working on and that's why a lot of the issues takes so long tom they can't and so with and it's all well and good for us to say well just shove everything off but if there's another development that comes along that's really important they can't shut it off and less you have interim zoning that says you've got to hold off on that and we have a certain period of time when we get all of our committees on board working really hard working with us to really define better hopefully what our future needs to look at i mean will we get it perfectly right probably not but i mean i like your idea if you give yourself six months and you see what's happening and are there some other issues that bubble up that we need to address as well so  reticent to put a time frame on it i could be convinced to have language that suggests that we have a status update to let us know after x amount of months so where are you how much time longer will it take the planning commission or whomever to take what they have developed or learned from studies and come to consensus about to then turn it into language in our land use development regulations to make it come true and then we get to have the chance with l d r's or any porton and changes to review it and have a public hearing and see if they did nail it but that to me is been what i've heard for years that you know the i mean the d r b can't change stuff even though it might seem logical because the l d r are the rules and regulations they're the law that determines what happens on any piece of property so if they aren't a line to what you want to have happen it doesn't happen and so i think many many people including everyone on this council is a man this community is really booming in terms of development it's here there it's everywhere some of it we want to have happen and we've pushed it like city center  but other stuff the little act to fifty carve outs or even some of the larger developments seem to be coming down the pike very quickly and the public has early lot of the public obviously not everybody but a lot of the public have said you know time out we really need to think about this there's other issues to consider i would disagree with you tom i think maybe i'm not so many words but i think we've heard from three department heads that it's getting really  tight it may not be wastewater but it certainly is plowing and sidewalks and paving of streets that's part of public works i mean maybe we have enough sewer allocation that's what it looks like although i just read something that bartlett is you know getting older and needing more more work on that and that's not a trivial expense and whenever we do do that work we certainly want to make sure that it meets the demands currently and projected what ever the those are so but i have heard from police and fire and public works that things are tough and we've gone through the budgeting process where you know now we now all the firefighters have the equipment they need but they didn't before and we had put it off because they're bought it in sections cuz you know that's how the money was so i am concerned that the way this city has sort of developed and i'm not going to cast aspersions on any farmer planning commissions or councils you make decisions as you see them when the time arises but you don't always know the consequences of those decisions and i think that's kind of what we're facing right now do we have the financial resources to continue the level of services that our residents deem to be appropriate i don't think we're meeting all of those now because we certainly have concerns about we've started to address that with the mental health but that's not the total lancer it's a piece of it i think but it's not the total answer it really comes down to you know enough people to carry out the duties that we think are important to make the community safe and livable and a place that is vibrant and meets the public's needs so i guess i would support this i'm ok with having some check in so that we don't necessarily have it's going to end in nine months but you know we'll have check ins and see so we can give an estimate to the public you know it looks like it's going to take three more months to get that those l d gars lined up with what we found and and the public will have the chance to comment on that and see the reports that are developed and help us really manage that new date those need those new data so we can craft something that is reasonable and related to the reality the planning commission voted for six months because in chatting with jessica the majority of them felt they wanted to be pushed on this and didn't want to be given the opportunity to get to go off on tangents sort of speak and that's that's so i said let's push them so with no date certain in there andrew if we put nine month if we were to put theoretically nine months in there what does it take to extend that if they say you know we need three more months can we just voted a meeting to go three more months or we have to go to war crimes or red take to do that and we could we could potentially put some sort of sunset that's what the planning commission seems to want and i don't want to give the opportunity to to go off on tangents even with time check ins so i'd like to put certain in there but if we do that and we find they're making good progress but gee we need three more months can we just vote to do that sure you could you could have that written into the written by law sensually it would say well that would say upon public hearing it may be extended for that would give us the ability to expand and we could do it again if we wanted to if you want to and i would also have to be written and there's no state statute that limits how many times you can do this if you can't go beyond two years can't you ask for an extent i took a look at the resolution and you know actually drafting the interim by law be clear about where it is that we're talking about specifically and what it is specifically that we're i mean it's essentially going to be  with that sort of sunset provision and then to direct the city attorney to draft a interim by a law to to be published in the other paper for the date certain that the public hearing i next final final it's a good question yeah to have that have to get back to you and you know yeah i think i mean i think yeah i think when we go into the public hearing we want to have our best shot to have the public hearing and then make a decision they will either sway is to say  proposing that takes effect by being announced but it could be canceled when it's finally considered well let's find out from so just reminded me of the last time  that at the public hearing they got the guidance who was that if it's going to be more restrictive then a new public hearing should be warned if you going to be less restrictive then it wouldn't need to be worn but certainly past consider as part of the charge to the care planning commission is to reach out to the identified land owners in the blue markings so that they are aware of this planning commission this this posted a public hearing on this topic so if we've done that the past we did it with these terrorists we did an outreach to all of the landowners on those specific parts part of the city hundred five of them i would love if the land owners affected by this potentially affected by this in terms owning were contacted as well saw people inform everybody else be informed through the other paper time saying that they should be more specifically informed informed because they're the land owners want to make sure they don't miss it engage other committees the economic development committee could you know help focus on the cost benefit analysis or interpret and responding fire under the committees you know i think it also works the way in order to know that this is something that we really want to push and figure out faster rather than i think that's an important i think that's really i think that it's to i and i would be against the  some sets are less strict so we wouldn't have to have another public airing because right now it has no time limit so that would be the most the most broad so me r and i think that's the other piece that's the other shoe that needs to fall we get the reports back with some recommendations that are not land use regulations they're just words these are our goal this is what we think should happen and then the second piece is turning that into action which is what the planning commission would need then to focus  it's necessarily regulatory you know but you're correct in the in the time frame which is why i think nine months gives a little extra time and if it's not completed we about in particular alignment of l d r's with a comprehensive plan and this was a good just kind of a follow up from this to this and presentation that was done at the last meeting that shows where they're actually the in this particular case in the southeast quadrant six developments that have actually been either grandfathered in or expected to be developed on some of the primary conservation areas where we are you know by our different developments that have actually happened on secondary conservation areas as well which are you know supposed to be really gray areas so we've actually you know despite the presentation that we got from were looking at you know those areas that are in green there are you know conserve that's not actually the case that we've actually developed on a lot of these lands already so i think it's really timely and important in terms of having this conservation this conversation about you know zoning from the standpoint of really thinking about i mean are we when we say we've actually stopped development i'm not necessarily sure that we have and really thinking about how the the r s and conservation plan line up i think is really important because i'm not sure that we've actually done a great job of winding those those two documents are a set of regulations and you're talking about stopping to develop areas that have been identified shouldn't be developed right exactly yeah from the conservation from the from the comprehensive player environmentally sensitive sites that are off limits to development wetlands if you build right up to the and there is a negative impact on the wetlands so that they can perform their job has if there is a buffer there can be a buffer but ok be and so as an outcome of this that's part of why the commission's trying to be fairly tailored to their own and subject areas so it's not set the expectation that all of the two hundred seventy strategies that play under dozens of different topic here it would automatically in six months be a trick i just want to say one thing following to dance remarks and thank you for those it's not just a matter of nine months or two years it's that this could down's own the value of people's properties that the end of this these l d r is could destroy a personal value my of an uncle or not they have ten acre parcel and they are all in other greener pastures and this could directly affect their retirement nest egg so i mean i'm going to contact them so that they know that this is happening but i think it's a very fair unprecedented thing for us to do to contact landowners affected by discussions we did it with stream really neighborhood we've done it with the east terr study so i didn't include it but we can certainly add it if it truly is a study really understand how it's a discussion so it's a study but i think i saw that as the drafting of the l fall our work on during interim zoning doesn't have to be a study the result of a study correct but you have to have some study and we have a couple identified megan  i think one of the reasons as i understood the discussion because i went to it at the planning commission is that night here from my husband there's they really are under pressure to do so many things that they keep getting distracted on very good important topics and then they can't complete their work in this case on the p u d s in a timely way i don't know how many months you've been working on them but it's been interrupted but a long time so one of their hopes and one of the reasons they supported this sort of timeout is they saw it as no one else would be coming in to say well we've got this great idea for you know some kind of development but we need a zoning change or whatever that would be off the table for the period of interim zoning and they could focus on getting the d s completed and getting them to us so we can have our public hearings and pass them so they become the new rules they wanted time to include that in the studies because they didn't think it was a study at thought it was the draft i don't think it is this the l d l i don't know if you need to include write our third or the other two and then the cost benefit analysis of the statutory language in in the enabling here speaks about  if a man's power he is conducting or has taken action to conduct studies or has held or is holding the hearing for the purpose of can considering them by a lot competent plan or an amendment extension addition to a by  to have at the back end of that new planned unit development standards then it probably would be appropriate to list that as being one of the purposes and then i would just to speak to michael's point i think that the desire of the commission is for the other two pieces to eventually get to regulatory language i'm i think it's was a discussion point as to whether all that would be able to be completed in the six month period so  of your ok and it seems to me that our study on the economics of development would impact some of those other decisions and discussions that the planning commission could is do we need do we need to have the final or is finals we can get a draft ordinance correct can't we can't vote on that tonight because we don't have the actual we've talked about some changes it sort of is just sort of a doubt a delegation question you can delegate you provided it's consistent with the purposes that you discussed so that's in the resolution and anything else you might add to that to be drafted in a room by law to be worn for a public hearing a later date so you could have a motion to that effect that essentially asked for the by a lot of be drafted consistent with a resolution consistent with anything added as an end and that would be enough  know that would be effective at the date that it was warned and by warner i mean published in the other paper and as we discussed earlier at the public hearing date at that later time it may be tweaked and discussed that's the  among the outcomes and to include a sunset clause nine months which can be extended for periods of three months up to a two year  different of elders about my three acres so i have a direct peculiarity interest in this and i'm glad to recuse i was torn on this i talked to multiple people they also i didn't need to recuse and it's really a personal choice and i'm getting barbs service telling me to recuse and i respect barb's service i'm going to go in recuse from this little no new development outs outside the transit overlay districts and one other thing i don't see it in the resolution currently is it the four so you know i mean this is the miracle of human i think it should be new buildings be limited edition somehow exempt additions to assert like a commercial building to a certain percentage of the current square footage or something like that there was a lot of specificity in there are for  majority of commercial development takes place here so active does not include the airport or somebody industrial parks behind me but for the most part you been included in new tallying unit payments i think if you were to state one way or the other that would be more clear because under state law all single family homes are committed by frank to h resolution for no new development exempting accessory dwelling units outside the transit overlay district and toward the same for a public hearing and the other paper published october twenty fifth twenty first hearing at the regular ok motion to adopt the resolution as amended and direct the city attorney to draft an interim byelaw for the purposes stated in the resolution for no new development of principle structures exempting excess ridgwell in units outside the transit overlay district meadowlands and ethan allen industrial park and similar areas in the city also the airport and to warn the same for a public hearing in the other paper published october twenty fifth twenty eighteen for hearing at the regular city council meeting nov nineteenth twentieth well i'm wondering since this will probably be controversial with some people that it might warrant just a special meeting for this hearing alone and not get all tied up with everything we have on the agenda for the one thousand does that make sense for people amenable to that that would give the public ample opportunity  i don't know how many people will show up but this room may not be large enough so may be at one of the schools i know they have lousy public you know speaking so can have it here and you know we'll just you'll have your all right moving right along or a little running a little late but we've got i didn't twelve council guidance for the f y twenty general fund budget proposal ration you have in hand so kevin's passed around just some budget considerations we try to help by identifying what some of the major cost drivers are you don't have all of them at this point we won't have the pension valuation number to probably sometime next month so that's kind of an unknown and i expect it will be other movement with some of the line items in the budget once department managers begin to formulate them and whether or not there'd be an additional staff request for many of them those are all kind of unknowns at this point but some of the things we do know we think that the c i p is going to only end around three hundred thousand above what was appropriated last year drivers their fleet fire department or public works or all or mainly public works actually police is probably secondary to them with another three cruisers the stewardship plan and the recommendation again is one twenty five we're trying to work towards that so we're saying well what's what's take a step so we increase the other twenty five thousand dollars the next two  don't really want to go into the numbers here because we're still in contract negotiations but we anticipate a health insurance increase probably somewhere around seven percent and you can see what the coal in the step would would generate there down at the bottom this isn't a recommendation this is this is really just a depiction of what it would take to offset some of these major cost drivers so you can see there what the projected one point two five percent growth in the grand list would would generate as well as necessary three percent in althea long term debt so basically you've got a differential about one and a half percent potentially and you don't know what the numbers are going to be at i mean he want to be exact right on you can wait until you see what the numbers are and not put quite so much into the subpoena that will get refined a little bit when i talk to todd who gives us that projection he felt that would be a conservative number he said possibly one in a happier cent he'd have a guidance staff and developing it so i think that the key issue for us is are we willing to tell them to go ahead and plan a budget that's predicated on the three percent increase in the tax rate up to it might be less if the general fund grossed increase grows to one point five right but if it doesn't and it's one point two five then we have to meet you know when it went to one of more firm numbers are going to fall into place over the next couple of weeks so we'll meet with the minute department managers on wednesday to kind of inform them where were the councils feel uncomfortable right now in have any idea what this school board is talking about terms of or david in terms of growth in their budget at this point unless he share i think it was less three point one for the year before three point eight four three start to shake i know it yeah you know that you know i mean three threes a target two nine five to better target two is a great target zero is the best target right but it's probably  doable because you've got these increases you know that when i tend to say some of these increases are controlled and some like the health insurance which is tremendous is beyond our control and well in the fleet issue david you were not on the council last year but we cut almost all the cars your we we can do that every year we give them good if they got a good car you know we actually go back to a pretty good place with so that because that's already been voted on that will be shown as a new tax rate like instead of the one that's in the book they get passed will be a new tax rate and then anything proposed would be on top of that then what they are actually voting on right except for public safety are we at the right point for number of employees and for the for the city part not exclude excluding public from just west to make sure that we are and we don't have too has or not public safety salary burden increased in the last three or four years or are you level is a pretty much level a level burden or is it decreasing or city halls a little bit have or need to take back to them to get answered for you we're in very good shape here twenty five percent of the way through yes for more of the governor will be the s b a meeting was an opportunity to ask him for his text department to tell us the addresses of all the people that paid your debts i would i want to go i would add more is that what we want to know is just a list of the of the of the business names that are included in the money remitted is part of the one percent yeah and i guess if they had the dollar amounts that meets those that was that might be harder but at least so that we can check the list to make donna was talking about last year is a she may come to you with a proposal this year her and doing the same kind of thing just giving one permit that would cover the whole here for those kinds of things but the state offers out now so that revenue source went away you have to make ours a little cheaper for them to up to go with us yeah the motion to approve that we need to do no no no it's just a report now if you have any follow up be of like on the narrative service let me know and i can be in touch with the departments you're a paper on it would be that to discuss it or is it acceptable to everyone good good i'm ok it's ok and i said we were going to let me just see could charter committee just to come in to talk and look at the city charter bus all the topics i don't know where each of us stands i'm not saying we definitely need to explore council composition i just think the city charter committee has met a long time there are some  twenty fifth twenty eighteen and our last item of business is food approved the contract a three year