the the order indicated that there was case law as you i'm sure very well aware of that suggest that the appealing party in a jurist default judgment case where jurisdiction is argued is improper below should make a rule sixty motion below before coming to this court in the circuit and you of the court asked me to address that issue first purpose of hearing the motion to vacate the default but procedurally it was required that we get a ruling from the district court that they would consider the motion to vacate the default before this court would remand for us to make that motion and the district court said i can't grant that motion because i don't have jurisdiction and jurisdiction in this case for resides with the ninth circuit i can't do anything until the appeal is done where the rules usually employed where i think one of the cases cited best that there's some sort of gamesmanship and what court you're trying to have here your your appeal we tried our best to have the district court here motion of a k to the default judgment we just couldn't get it done for procedural reasons so then the being just ask you to cypress allow for service by mail or buying international mail only when the district court the judge in the trial court in this case district court issues an order to allowing for service by mail so in other words they file that's the only circumstance well actually there are two requirements one being that the  international the contract entered into in cyprus which isn't the case here but let's assume for the sake of argument that they met that hurdle then there can be an application to a judge in a trial court that they allow service a process by mail and if that order is issued in cyprus will answer by mail they don't allow it as a general rule in every case it requires a court order so i it would certainly alter the analysis in this sense the location that the mail went to was the previous location for opera pielke oh so it was not the proper location to ther defendant was simply a secretary which is something required under cyprus law they're not an operating secretary like you would have in the united states it's just simply the it's more the equivalent of an outside director they don't do collect in other words they didn't know about this case until fedex finally took this this this this last piece of mail to their new location and said i think this is for you and they opened it up and saw that there's a moat hearing scheduled on the default judgment and that's when they called counsel and that's when i called the court and said we want to appear and learn that it was too late so there's the certainly excused in that regard you know on the other part of this appeal though is there are there issues defenses relating to the merits and especially the way that the judgment is calculated just like you would have for instance in a burger king commercial and they say mcdonald's doesn't flame broiled their burgers we do there's nothing to suggest that these are these people are using that mark for scenario where i may be in violation of the rule because of this time requirement to me confer or i may not be but i don't know until later won't know until we open the box later and eleven but i think they tried that tried to do the rule sixty b and they were denied because the the district court didn't allowed or they were past the judgment time then they had they felt like they were going to run out of time and they wanted to make sure they had time to appeal so they appealed and then hear from the circuit circuit tried to get the district review the sixty b i'm not quite sure why they should be punished or somehow that should be held against them when the records pretty clear unless you give me a really good argument is it isn't it true that the sixty motions still could been brought in fact the six to be motion could have been  i'd gotten that ruling from the district court i'm not sure i would garner filed a rule sixty b motion well the first sixty motion was was six for a very trivial central district rule issue which is just a failure to me  that's a case in which the party was in close contact with the court at all times saying look here are the challenges i'm having there's no evidence of that here in fact if what we had seen was your honor look sorry we got kicked on this on the sixty b thing we're about standard and it matters here because abuse of discretion is measured at the time that the court made the decision not based on some future set of facts or law that the court didn't have in front of it and so that would eliminate what i just want to know if service was proper here so  honor and here's why because the court action required us to resurface issue the service issue itself whether or not service was proper under the head by mail was actually brief before the court several cases were cited including cases from within the ninth circuit that just reading i mean the best response is to why you were allowed to serve this person these people internationally by mail so so that would that would be one that's not permitted in the in the jurisdiction that you're trying to serve because the court it's going to be a documentary number thirty two so let me find it here one twenty seven is the order and if you look at the briefing on this  twenty eight and subsequent pages  in and to be fair i was so read me the terms of the order that or permitted you to serve in cyprus by pharmaceutical terms of the order matters appropriate for decision without all argument of considering i didn't say anything about service no but but the record is i think clear on this issue and that is that the court required additional briefing on knowing snohomish record do you risk leading us the record is not clear that that is an order on s in this is a significant issue where the district court specifically said i will allow service by mail is there somewhere in the record that the district court says that i think you know i think i think our impasse is is only because the court actually specifically authorize this service by may well earlier in the docket the court actually says and i'm not willing to do this without further briefing on the service by mail issue and which point that's why  where is the where the what i'm trying to find out is what the page is the willing by the court are you got you know seven figure relief you got attorneys fees all of which appear to raise contested  issues why isn't all this better decided on the merits why should we given what are the steps your adversary took to try to appear and defend this process and this is again on the record that this is very much a hide and seek him the address that is on their website that they contend is clearly his address still on their website today as of this morning certainly as of the end of the briefing they have continued to perpetuate this you can't find us because we're going to give you a false address position and you argue back to the district court actually the district court accepted it so that information is on front of the district court can't i think that the most important point of like to make is that the way that you get permission to search by mail is to make a motion and ask for permission is or by mail what happened here is maybe we don't know for sure it's not an order maybe there's retroactive permission but the judge didn't put that in an order we need to have certain we need to have a motion can we do it this way and then we'll serve it this way the  well if you get retroactive permission to search by mail that's acceptable it's if you have an orders or by mail you can serve by mail we don't have it here it sounded like a most of the points i'd like to make were raised already by the by the panel and so if you have your questions for me i'm happy to answer then i have a question for you counsel if we were to decide that the service of process was address the propriety of default judgment in addition there's an alternative issue you're on i think it is it's possible that we that you may need an expert to  come in and provide evidence under a lot of cyprus in order to finally decide this issue but i don't believe that's necessary but it may be that that's the missing piece for you to make a decision and i'm not sure limited is submitted thank you