and williams argued for mr israel martinez congratulations on your point and i know you've only been here since may i want to start out by saying mr martinez is not the most likable character in this story he worked for waste management right i want to make that perfectly clear he says he's not a nice guy but he didn't do what they're claiming he did he work for waste management it's a trash collection company that works out of northwest houston the wrong ways the wrong t with the wrong people yes sir that's usually how it worked for these officers then we understand where you go on record he was a lead driver he worked there for a long time but he worked for waste management so he was a helpers on the truck that would follow along behind the truck and pick up the trash and put it in the truck and he took advantage of the of the helpers i mean they were bringing coffee and donuts and little treats and things of that sort and he would give them special routes or special privileges but what he didn't have the authority to do was to hire and fire any of these people the the authority came through am mine which was a staffing agency i think there were maybe one or two other staffing agencies before i am mine because this has been going on since maybe two thousand and six up to two thousand and twelve or thirteen acknowledged in the record that he was the boss of bosses he was the manager he was the one that did hire and fire people and also all three of your arguments are sufficiency of evidence arguments is that correct yes yes ok and the first two pertain to the conspiracy counts is that right that's correct yes or no conspiracy to conspiracy counts as in there's two aiding abetting counts as in the the last four  substantive aggravated i didn't write this ok so when the m i supplies and they supply the workers there he doesn't cite m i supplies the helpers to waste management now people sends him over his helpers they got audited at some point in found out a lot of the workers were illegal which is quite common and used to enemies have the restaurants and use it would close down tomorrow  criminal cutting to the chase here i mean you know the evidence is that mr mcveigh mr mightiness suggested using the identities feeling need identities of former applicants now how would mr mightiness and been in a position to know about that well the guardian is he could his you work there for so long he knew the people and when they got on and said and most of a good bunch of their were going to you know i think they just they just ought to demo think they were they were working there illegally too during that entire time but when they oughtn't to down they said hey look you these folks are all illegal you need to get rid of those were the long term illegal employees i guess they were some of them were there for years and years of kids they did it because that's obviously the only topic again but they were this is a tense difficult labor and people just can't do this you know they were mostly young you know mexican immigrants or guatemala or honduras el salvador that they could handle that the tough hard work where most people couldn't i couldn't i couldn't last ten minutes up there but they could work all day and some of the work for several years there  but anyway he didn't have the power and that was the main part of my argument is he didn't have the hiring authority to do that so also he did was say if you want to get some workers and you're just use the names of previous workers and it was left up to mary flores and say or something jago because they had access to the information the kronos system and they could put in the pin numbers the identification numbers so they could they could prepare all the paperwork and all the documentation they needed to have these these people come back to work how does the lack of authority help you with regard to a consumer being a conspirator or an aider and abettor i mean somebody had to have the authority if it's not him he could still have if assuming the other evidence is sufficient he could still be convicted as a conspirator or couldn't he well that in my mind i would say no because he just presented your bills like that and you go rob the bank that doesn't make me the conspirator i gave in the idea they went out and they did they did all the necessary things that they needed to do but is that all he did are you contending that that's all he did was drop the suggestion and then walk out in the next thing we know these people were back working he dropped the suggestion and he gave them names of people that worked there before but other than that he's it's pretty tenuous because they could they could just go back in time and look at all the people because mary flores and save our son thiago and i think another person whose name i can't remember right off the top of my head all had access to this information from a and that's that's the key part we're mr martinez comes in is he doesn't have access to this information at a mine in order for those people to come back to work and for them to change the documents and other hand your argument that he's marcelo out on the extreme margins of this operation in terms of not harming me i hear you but well but i guess my position  did i think and he just knew too much and he knew that there was a conspiracy going on and he gave them the idea but it was mary flores says or santiago that did everything now he knew that these people were covered and he knew that they were illegal because a million illegal for years and years and years so he knew what was going on the whole time and what makes him look bad i think is because during the hiring the employees as you have to one of the elements is you have to do it for profit and he wasn't profiting off of the hiring and firing of the employees his bonuses came from the safety  regulations that he was comporting with and the productivity so as long as the workers were there he he wasn't getting paid for bringing in new workers or hiring new workers he couldn't hire them anyway but that's not where his money came from his money came from safety bonuses and productivity bonuses so he wasn't making any that's an element that they missed is he wasn't making any money from them being  hired on the next to the next conspiracy this is the one that bothers me the most is is the ados meant for these these folks to stay in the united states of war these people came from horrendous conditions and they most of them came from whence or really difficult harsh time to get to the united states in my opinion they don't need any inducement to stay here in the united states they're they're here to stay you would you would have to reduce them to leave open skilling well if they couldn't get a job it would be a disincentive that they would just go work somewhere else out i think th i mean the lotto someone says they're not supposed to be working in the us if they're illegally and training right right but i'd agree with that but what they're claiming is what the government is claiming as he induce them to stay here in my position is they don't need inducement to stay here if the company that induces them what happened to the company will that that would and that would be back to embalm i understand that at any rate well no i'm thinking of waste management liable criminally here not that i could find i mean as much as i did looking through it i couldn't find anything that was relatively similar to this most of the cases were drug twenty four a whatever it is say for but right but that i didn't find any cases were there were a similar situation where you had an individual like mr martinez where they were and i want to say they worked for him they didn't work for him but they worked with him but i didn't see any cases whether they were similar to what you're speaking of because he was just a lead driver am i supplied the lead drivers with the helpers excuse me so i didn't i didn't really find any cases that were on point or similar to that for for the position that he had with my last few minutes of the final argument is regarding that the identity theft and that goes back to the kind of the same thing that the other ones were related to is he doesn't have any of the information needed for anything other than he knew the names of some of the people that worked there from before that they had to go through m i again to marry flores and sailor santiago through the criminal system and they had to backtrack years ago to find out the people that had worked there before some of them would work there for a couple of weeks and leave and most of them were for united states citizens so they would marry flores safer santiago would use their n audio that had access to all that personal information the pin numbers of kronos number still security numbers all that all those sounds like they are arguing in essence on each of these for all of these counts that at best he could be charged with and found guilty of a misprision is that a fair statement that that's that would be that would be a fair stance that will depend on the government to tell us then what overt acts they think would extend would raise this above a misprision count but i mean you can s that he knew what was going on in fact he was one of the suggest there's the whole plan yes he was well with respect to the for getting the new employees and he said that we're just used it's a maze of people that worked there before any new after after they did it i would look they followed my suggestion here come out these people that i've seen before so he obviously knew that they knew he not only suggested it but that they executed his suggestion that this mission of family would be perfect for the united states overwhelming evidence exists in this case to support that martinez knew and played an active role in this hiring thousand and eight the bulk of the hope of a workforce that waste management were illegal aliens smuggled from mexico el salvador and honduras the problem was so bad that my step flores to clean house at waste management because there were at least one hundred legal help illegal helpers in january of twenty twelve approximately sixty to seventy illegal helpers were fired and they were told the people that were present were martinez flores and they were told to go out and get legal status if they wanted to remain employees shortly after the firing martinez was the mastermind of this scheme he proposed a scheme to  flores where in they would require these helpers that they had just fired and they would resign identities from former legal applicants and former legal helpers so let me let me ask you a question what if anything has that i mean they've been confronted by the government in a criminal court because i thought you were leading to say this was civil but but no indictment has occurred one hand if he's positioned where he was but on the other hand counsel of knowledge is keeps seeded the idea you say is the mastermind which watching the t v turns to me you know you not only plant the idea but you're sort of santiago agreed to it and so what happened is a multiple times a week he would go through with flores the old routing seats the old worker seeds from past workers and tell her which workers no longer work there and which workers were illegal and their identities could be assigned to these newly hired people and the reason he knew that is because he had worked there for almost eleven years and he knew all of the people that had worked there in the past and it had been legal and for as it only worked there for eleven months she didn't know these helpers he didn't know any of the former employees that were had been legal so multiple times a week he helped her do that she also testified that he helped her create her cheat sheet which was assigning pin numbers to these new rehires as i'd say the only evidence is that he actually participated in assigning to a man the number yes or honor and he didn't just turn over a bulk of information here are a bunch of identities which may or may not be bad enough but you're you're saying that there's evidence that he actually participated in corresponding an identity with an individual and he actually passed out the helpers and there's testimony from eight helpers themselves that testified to martinez's all they stated that after the twenty twelve hiring he personally called them back on the phone in some cases gave them the new identity over the phone let me give you an example of that garcia lopez one of the fired helpers testified that martinez called him and said don't worry about your job you'll work under the name of a different everybody plays so i have read the record certainly not all of it but what i understand if i read floors is testimony and or san diego she is going to testify not only bear fourteen is playing the idea but now why don't you know  that's the whole point to have an argument so when i ask and we ask these questions we get they ask what you know is their family have to read the record then i expect the person best friend the government to know what's in it whether you try to do or not but you know to kind of know it's a sufficiency challenge across the board so you know if it's a case where is he now it just in to no at least not every tittle in words but the core of what's supporting that her testimony would be unchallenged when you consider the fact that lead helpers testified consistently to her story when you consider the documents that were energy used at evidence and with those documents were were the route sheets that martinez signed and that the helpers identified that he signed under their new needs even though he had no member so many years under a different name the testimony that he had distributed pay check to these helpers that he had known for years under different names etc how they got paid if they had identities that were not in social security numbers i assume our government id numbers that were not there as they were paid by check is that correct you just mentioned and th had worked for her for years his name was one me he he was fired in two thousand and twelve and then came back then she was thrilled to see him and said want i'm so happy to see you martinez pulled her over to the side and said in a low voice his name is david now him david in addition the tour victor still that was another legal employee a driver and he complained to meanest about the fact that all these people were coming back with new and he was told to mind his own business he also saw our martina's and rudy martinez writing down the names of new people each week on a blackboard and finally your honor the additional piece of evidence to corroborate florida's testimony and that is sufficient and of the jackson versus virginia standard as a testimony he testified that he interviewed individually six of the helpers and the old told the scene story about how they were fired in january two thousand and twelve that they were a retired jointly there after a given new names and in many cases martinez called them on the phone and gave the new names over the phone that martinez was charged with the responsibility of passing out the paychecks on a saturday they they all share that responsibility your honor they individually share that role floors in santiago and some of the helpers testified that that sometimes must martinez would pass them out sometimes floors would pass them out and in fact tearing down our stick testify that that really bothered her that that so he actually called them instructed them on where to go and process the new identities because the evidence is can is sufficient on the conspiracy count it is also sufficient to support the substance of counts as well under pinkerton and under aiding and abetting with respect to conspiracy to reside in the united states the evidence is sufficient to support that count because the statute doesn't just  prohibit bringing aliens and harboring aliens it also prohibits encouraging them to remain in this country and the eleventh circuit has two cases on point and a couple there after that state that providing identities to facilitating employment is actually encouraging residency in the country and that's exactly what happened here martinez hopes these people remain in the u s by giving them legal work documents  barred this is the second case of this thirteen a for prosecution that i've seen in our circuit but maybe they're more maybe it's one of the crimes do you sure but i know that you have the ry they were managerial employees but your honor i would argue that he did exercise a managerial role by the time that these this scheme had taken place he was no longer just a driver he was actually a lives no longer just a low level driver he was actually in charge like a supervisor in charge of the route the residential route and it was a pretty big role the helpers testify that he had a lot of influence because he could put certain ones on the schedule and take certain people off to get a better schedule he had a lot of influence there but there is evidence that a lot of the helpers tried to bribe him with food and starbucks and things of that nature so he wasn't he was not a low level employee by the time that this conspiracy happens with respect to that aggravated i don't eat that martinez's argument that he didn't have access to the am my database really is not significant because he had worked there so long he didn't need to have access to the database to know which former employees on the route sheets had legal legal status he was able to tell flores this helper doesn't work here anymore put you can use his identity and flora's testified to that real people the whole purpose of the scheme was to use real people's identities people that had passed benefit was tied to the productivity of these helpers and in terms of safety bonuses in both flores in santiago testified that easy illegal how girls were amazing workers because they never complain they never basically called authorities about the situations that they were working under and they never took days off sometimes they work double shifts so the safety record in the productivity record was briefly about excusing a cross examination about what miss floor's had said on the record at ten twenty five floors made it clear that mr martinez did not have the authority to hire people to work at either waste management or am i and that's the record at ten twenty five miss florence also testified that she alone hired five aliens but the others were hired by  checks to anyone but whether he handed out checks or whether we didn't is rather incidental but she testified that sailor santiago our oil was was the boss of it all he was the boss of bosses and things were his way or no way and that's the the record it eleven sixty and eleven sixty one what do you do with the testimony of the workers they were their complaint was they were mistreated and that's that's why they were you know what he would he do with what you know what he do it that the only thing that he did was he told them if you guys can't work here unless you have proper documentation don't get proper documentation and when you get it take it to mary flores and show handle everything and pretty much everyone testified to something similar a lot of these fellas got their own documentation i don't look to the record i can find it real quick but several of them got it from their relatives got it from the parents of the brothers or whoever but most of them when they came in a couple of them when they came to israel martinez and said hey i got you know a name or a paper or whatever it's a well you know take the money for us i don't have anything to do with it so he khana directed them incidentally isn't this president downey so he didn't get in the government also a wedge that we just heard that mr martinez called the employee and advised of what the new identity would be for that person to return to work how do you do it is a you just dismissing that as not credible well motivated by some sort of a disgruntled employee no i think he he did provide the names for some of them and so they go back and use these names but you have to go through mary followers and say is are something i'll go an am i in order to get hired so you can use these names because he knows people you don't have to go through the record books or anything he those people that have worked there from years before and says oh easy things but you know it's like if you need money go rob a bank kind of that's my analogy is you need money go rob a bank but you know i'm not going to help around the bank if you need documentation go get documentation when you get the documentation taken in for us and they'll do whatever they do because i can hire you so that that's maybe my position