with commissioner bud to see if there's any additional kind of case study type thing that we're going to add into that but apart from that nothing that i've come up with recently nor anything that i've seen from any of the lot of bodies that looked at this would change in any material way what i had presented last month and that includes the co i report that's been completed that includes  memos that the special committee has been receiving on similar topics as well as some other thing that i've just been taking a look at keeping an eye out for so there's no real material difference that's essentially done and i'm in the process of writing  concerning the some of the qualifications that are common for county manager positions i'd also suggest that the commissioners take a look at the presentation that was given by keith reagan  about two weeks ago on the current state of qualifications within the county he goes through and it's the department heads and division heads and talks a little bit about the qualifications that they receive in regards to to those kinds of things the special committee is also receiving a bunch of information from their analysts on duties and duties i think i'm pretty sure that's what it is of the  of those parts so one of the things and this is something that's up for discussion with everyone here is the degree to which want to tackle the issue of department heads right now we haven't really talked about it a whole lot you focus a lot on our manning director and something that that gets me a little bit when the oem when we're looking at this is the difference in speech when it comes down to whether to professionalism right when they say that we need more  professionals in county government i have a problem with that and the small problem is simply i mean do the qualifications and job descriptions for a lot of these positions explicitly talk about professionalism or they're more interested in the qualifications of the person position and the reason why i dislike it is because it's an overt suggestion that our current department heads and managing directors are not professional now whether that's true or not is something that legal but i think it's at least a more concise way of saying that we're looking at qualifications as opposed profession how would you could say somebody was to learn from a resume or from a cd or something like that  charter which is something that was provided through the special committee as well as any items that commissioner alvarado gave to us some of which came directly from the i c and of you been able to take a look at those qualifications what are your thoughts on those those qualifications templates that they they provided i think it's pretty standard i mean i about so it's important when we look at that because the idea around proponents for the county manager system is that by switching to a county manager form government that will get more qualified county managers right now we look at the basic qualifications that are given by realizations like the i c m a which is a professional organization for county managers if we see that those qualifications that they are giving are not that different from the quality or the qualifications of the managers we're already getting how can you then say that by switching to a county manager form of government that will be getting more qualified county managers does that make sense during this or group of your department heads that yes there's i'm not i'm c m a are we going to be can we say that we will get more qualified professionals by doing that and if there isn't that big a difference between the qualifications given by the i c emmy and what we're getting now how can you say that we're going to because he basically said the same thing it's it's basically a systemic issue not a management issue so if that's the case and maybe be content to repeat her no two if you were going to have how many of you were able to hear her testimony it was commission up to the special committee on on those kinds of things i mean see the newspaper article is good it captures maybe a percentage some fraction of what a couple of things that she had talked about beforehand so i mean that's where i would go when we're looking out understanding those differences right because we always want to frame ourselves around ok if we were to switch to a county manager form of government can we expect these kinds of changes can i add that leading this meeting are at a point where we really want to just start writing the right word and so we need to solidify on each of these topics what our findings are and if we cannot do that then that's something we need to resolve you know to everyone so we have a copy at least of the powerpoint presentations or that he used which has most new things now that you're speaking up there included in it is there anything else within professional qualifications or any other avenue general qualifications that you want for various department directors the salary commission because the commission that determines the salaries for these directors there is no gradation based on your level of education your experience anything if you're the director of the department of transportation you make access to the director of a director you generally make about ten percent less and so it's just set according to the that particular to that position it is not set according to the individual so just keep that in mind too as you're considering the qualifications you might want to say ok under these qualifications you have to have x numbers of experience and you're going to have a salary associated with that but that's not the case in keep in the back of your mind that qualified if you're trying to balance qualifications with salaries it doesn't exactly work that way as the harmony currently exists now in the other way it strikes me to keep in mind  you can look at one mayor in a structure because this is what we're talking about is it's a system that will be in place over time so just because if we were to look back in the past and say well this mayor did a poor job in this we did so i mean it's do we want a mayor i mean does the popularly elected mayor fit what it is that we want for our local government in the other ok going down the road just a little bit if you look county managers and where they work and where they don't work they work well in places that have a lot of so yes and they don't have a lot of competing interests and have to thrash things out through the public process and you know that that strikes me is we do want a mayor and that is the election process is this whole process we have a little combative in it and it's you got to get in and tussle to work things out well you know democracy is hard work yes you know so maybe you know that in looking at it the differences across my county you know in my opinion maybe a mayor maybe the former governor we have fits that better than try issues then there's the systemic situation with how the actual under workings of the in the department said cetera so i think what i read of the article and maybe there's more to it when charmaine testimony time has struck home with me and said it's there's a lot more going on besides the leadership here and we found that out in our grants you know distorting digging the surface in our grants review report last year so there's a whole lot of issues so the question is can the to me ultimate question is can the mayor or the county manager do a better job throughout the entire county system of management as opposed to just the top level u i think that's regardless of whether we choose america or we choose what's going to fix us right if it's one or the other it doesn't really matter to us which one to be it's yeah i think going off of what broadly s the environment is not necessarily conducive to that with the county manager because because it because that the way the budget process currently works with the council in the communities that it represents you're always going to have a council that is activist or do we have sufficient evidence or findings that it would be better one way or the other when the flip side is if you look at the if you truly stacked the interesting thing about counties in hawaii is that they're  consolidated and there are no there's no duplication of services within cities or villages so to compare to other counties you really have to stack up all the other cost of yes so when you do that the staff would do this with staff to create so i would think we can talk a little bit more about this when we get down to how we're going to do our recommendations or how we're going to the site as a group on our recommendations i think that's going to be an important topic of i want to discuss today you know at all possible how are we going to come up with a recommendation once we have an a more written up form a lot of these things maybe you want to look at the next one to come back are you thinking to do the recommendations yeah  yes that's ok so turnover costs i will kick this off i was able to get a hold of several civil servants as opposed to last month i was talking to a white you know department heads and division heads and and so i spoke with six different civil servants across the different departments i call putting in is written out in such a way that people know that you've been doing all of this stuff even if you're reclamation is something that can be said in three sentences four sentences i think it's very important that you still capture who it is that you're calling and done in the same way that county managers are so it's very difficult to to do that i mean we have these information we have my we counties information but to get other counties information or try to compare that against other or other local governments it's very very difficult you know at the county manager level yes we can you know we can do it i think that's sufficient i don't think you need to get into statistics on so moving on to the employment cost of executive branch positions you know and last month i talked about it a little and then i was kind of trying to tighten down my my definition of you know department heads that they would have to have you know a tool to recruit them the salary and longevity of some and so actually kind of a challenge with them you know in the may or process can be a challenge when you have a mayor  o what i've passed out it's basically a road up kind of you know just a little a rough what would be kind of a rough draft for a section with some of that with the findings that i have and i'll go through oaks you know one point one million for the for the city manager office to america washington was one point three million and they have a city manager form of government spokane was eight hundred sixty two thousand for strain mayor brenton one point five million you know one point three million i did napa too but i didn't make it in this version that came in it like over one point seven million for perfect comparison but i felt like it was a worthy comparison to include and so i talked about napa county isn't consolidated system but  i don't think you can say that you know you might be able to say it would cost more but i don't think you know the director but i don't we don't have enough research at this point to make that statement but i know you can't say it would it would automatically save money  those would be my two findings we get into a slippery slope when we start making these these kinds of comparisons because this is something that we've talked about before handing it out well for everyone that you find it's above i could probably go out and if i'm looking hard enough we'll find one that's good low yeah so i mean what's what's the correct thing to say that when i'm sure we're going to get letters yeah people say well look at this because that i mean our hope to me the whole purpose of this commission is to make the government more effective and better correct and dig up information that would help the help everybody understand what we see it's to take to do that and they don't want to do it fine but to me if you have a job description marcum indication then you should also have an apartment objectives right and whether it's bad charter or whatever it's not just go out and run the you know county waste trucks or whatever it's got to be we we planned to do this said in the aether and then at the end of the year a report about the department of jack to observe as opposed to  accomplishments and it could be it's difficult to quantify but and that could be then another position from the mayor whose job is to make sure that department heads have a ongoing process that you know they're keeping to because if nobody's evaluating these guys as opposed a quantitative situation so that's coming from that goes back into this system that yeah i did my duty most of the most of the department heads are pretty strongly tied to the county ordinance and they did a lot of them are falling very specific guidelines you know in that with the exceptions being i think the life of the parks department that could be included the department head coming up with a whole recommendations about his department or hers and how it could be run more efficiently or how they could meet their objectives better and it could be you know we need a better budget whatever but i'm just all those kind of ties into systemic operational six a as well my goal here was specifically to address the what is the question of the assumption people make that if you go to think you don't even get me even if you find to that eight of the next ten that you look at there is some amount less that doesn't invalidate the idea that there's uncertainty about whether if we change it or not that it would result in lower costs molly county yeah it doesn't change your finding any i mean you only need to do really fine two or three yeah but still higher and you can say well we're not sure and yeah and that's that and it seems you know you've all heard the test of people seem so sure exactly you know that  this is this is going to save us this money and it's not the mechanism that does it itself where you lose the penny wise pound foolish i want the cheapest manager i can borrow because i don't want to invest and th yeah and that cost hundreds of thousands or hundreds of millions of dollars rather than all all invest in the best manager i can and that will deter good so that's i mean it's you know  savings want to always give you a long term serious thank you yeah ok so and then moving on to the financial implications again there's nothing new here it's you know i i again just kind of typed it up in a format that maybe some version of what it looks like in the final report but  but you know again my finding is that i don't i don't see any negative or positive impact even by my county has a really good bond rating as it is i don't see any net any impact whatsoever as long as it doesn't fine what are the things that they do look at that indicates to them that these counties are a good bet for their money sure right and that will give us an idea of who's obese are the things that we do look at and what that allow well at least according to the investors these are the things that they think are lead to value in the economy and efficiency with those counts and there's very few people that i would do these analyses i wouldn't and that could happen i guess very close yet i mean i i called the the guy that wrote one of the three authors of the methodology they talk pretty frankly with not specifically about accounting well it doesn't have to be specific about what this last month worked in the department finance and they said that everything they do is is dictated by what's good for the bond rating  that if we do chain from the government it may have been as an additional work that the county would have to do to resolve the that issue if if the ratings ever were questioned so it's not our position to make that decision it's so anything to add on on these these issues and we i can they can start drafting it into the report this month i'd like to know your old feelings what we've discussed here we've gone through  essentially all of our findings that we have discussed in december issue and we have chosen these things and i want i would like to gauge your general feelings do you feel that there's any holes do you feel that you could argue or that vacuum i mean i mean we don't we forget that there's a commission you know we i mean we produce whatever we produce report through the support of our readers and what's interesting to me is it all comes back to to grow this point is you know change for the sake of change this is a good thing to do but a little experiment one in four going to cause the harm you  old you know we've minute see a little bit better playing in the sandbox between the administrator and the council over budget issues if we do this but is are you dumping the apple cart chain or one system areas and we found you know that this isn't going to achieve what state it is the desired effect you know so our recommendation is that you look at these questions you know it's so we can hopefully narrow yeah i'll come down to is that is of money or is it the evaporation what we're looking at that they want that's the bottom line so if you look at what our objective wise is what would be the benefits of changing and it would be a more cost efficient the more you know quality control and they just go down the list of whatever it is spent the first one is money but go to them for five items that we looked into to see if that would be a better system f and county and then you're going to go through your discovery by point and the thing and just say you know based on what we were looking forward to achieving that is it going to happen that we can say well that was you know on your presentation last month euphemism but i think that for each of these for example there is there's some real recommendations that we could make for instance under professional qualifications even though we're saying that we can't expect better qualifications at that's not to say that we can't improve or tighten up the qualifications that in your heart we're not saying that i'm not yeah i think overall that's going to be a good thing for executive branch cos you know even though we're saying there isn't that much there shouldn't be that much of a difference that's not to say that it's not important  it's still going to be something that's important and perhaps the salary commission think is something that we could recommend then say ok you know instead of we need more of a range we need to change this so that the salary commission have a little bit more leeway as to what they give some to what their what their salary would be given their qualifications or something like theirs mayors have any any report of it they just report directly to him is there any plan for cation requirements to be the mayor's whatever that we have our ex contractor he's very from have been on the planning commission and all that so his expertise when there's a lot of calls to the mare's office and you get some because of his experience being knows how to help the people you know sometimes we most of the people who have been involved do have some expertise in government or customer service or management or do they report directly to the mayor and no one else is we  i'm more concerned than zero point three so that's everything then yeah so how how then can this lead to a recommendation and this is getting back to those issues that bradley had mentioned here before about those other things right so we looked at some stuff and there are other things and a lot of the stuff that we chose had to deal with our charter responsibility right which is measuring are looking at that a lot easier evaluating the economy and those  functions but if we find for example that it's it's a push essentially we need to include also something on the other side so here's here's my train of thought of this if we found that there's very little difference between those two is that the same thing as saying that it wouldn't matter and i don't think it is because of those other things that we haven't looked at right so something that both the mare and former mare of ours brought up was something as simple and i think as vitally important as the public's right to vote for who they want in executive office which is something we don't discuss or that we've never really analyzed in any shape or form right so that's the big difference right between the county manager form of government and elected mayor form of government is that you essentially eliminate the chosen by a committee which is usually the council right or a commission so we'd lose the whole checks and balances situation really that's the argument or one of the one of those left one of the ones we have which is one so we don't  like that right because we don't capture those kinds of things i think that when we get to our recommendations we need to at least in a cursory manner talk about those kind of issues as well and then the other you know  participate right yeah if your children are applying in the parks and parks are important to you you need to be concerned about that and participate in pushing those services are being provided you know that that's what makes them without that component you know the check in the commission and i think he basically said that he gave to carry out about efficiency and when that might occur if it were there but i think you also threw out there if there are other issues you're trying to address with the train and he so here would be my disagreement with with everything that you guys are saying about about including it or not we imagine it like a big teeter totter right and what we're trying to do is we're trying to figure out by weighing certain things whether we can say that across america form government or council managers whatever and we chose in these five things to look at explicitly now if those five things indicate that there isn't that much of a difference between those two it means that those other things that we haven't looked at are going to be the things that decide this issue right and that's why i think it's important that we include it as part of iraq and the action we c i would not recommend putting in this discussion as part of their you can put it towards the end of the report but it needs to kind of stand on its on its own as well as just throwing it as a conclusion i think will confuse the discussion last month about the values based approach and basically getting you to get eleven values you consider you you said were important five then you considered these are your findings on the five these are the other you know three four or five or six that you want to mention why i feel it's important to include is simply because we are one part of this overall decision making process or as i like to think we are made up it's true but we're one part of this and i would like to make sure or at least to the best of our ability to try to be a certain as possible that the things that we haven't looked at are looked at you know and that's that's grants commission and the planning planning and so we'd like to include a bit about both of those just to follow up on what we did last year suited for the grants commission since you're on it to write a summary of what the grants what are you know recommendation was from last year that was and never we've never had a meeting so don't be taken that seriously we they shut it down before i directly to refer to previous reports and you'll see that we're looking for like a paragraph or something like that on line yes they're all in my ok yeah all the previous reports are like ok commission website follow up is important on all of these issues yeah this is just a little off topic yeah we were going to extend an invitation to the council yeah to review didn't even take us up so  someone you know to consider you know that this this last year is the first year that we did i've been on the commission where we haven't gone and followed up our report with you know a visit should we do that i think it's more powerful just yet so do we want to take a forward leaning communications plan on this or do we want to take a less with less of a forward leaning so what i mean is that my expectation is because there is a special committee on governance that we would at least present our findings to the special committee on governance as the basic our right so that's one point so we present those finding you know i have i mean i think there's some commonsense limits to how much publicity we should seek him in a form that we should drive ourselves into let's not think of this like we're seeking publicity it's spike it's reporting  he did but i don't see that as a reason not he's presenting it to our a special committee as well that's what committee is and of this mission to make the most use of our findings you know right away so i think for the sake of the report we should if nothing else welcome whatever you guys have this and i kind you points piece it's probably appropriate how do we all feel about that that's good why don't we get that report drafted and then we can talk about last night around the world or whatever i think we're kind of premature until we actually look at the report and about other way that we think would be appropriate gail says no anyone else well right this minute i mean i'm not i don't know what kind of feedback we're going to get on what we began today whether or not people are you know what's going on