good afternoon members the meeting of the housing and human services and transportation committee or now come to order it is one thirty p m on thursday september twentieth twenty sixteen members before we begin may i please requests and also people in our gallery that we all turn off or silence our cell phones or other make noise making devices at this time i'd like to introduce our committee voting members i'm committee and with us today is committee vice chair gladys spicer good afternoon to good afternoon thank you for being here committee member bob carroll thank you committee member dunn college or good afternoon committee member don guzmn thank you and of course member might victory no thank you for being here also with us today as no voting committee member who regularly attends our meeting thank you very much also probably excuse that the moment is consummate ember ricky hall come on with us from the administration office representatives of director of housing  human concerns care reiman thank you for being here at our assistant housing administrators department of housing and human concerns linda must feel i say that right thank you and legislative analyst michelle members we have two items on the agenda today so we'll get started it would public testimony assisting us this afternoon from the honda district office is done law no for individuals who will be testifying in the chamber please sign up at the desk located in the eight floor lobby just outside the chamber door if you will be testifying from their remote testimony locations specified on the meeting agenda please sign up with council staff at that location testimony will be limited to the item listed on the agenda today pursuant to the rules of the council each testifier will be allowed to testify for up to three minutes per item with one minute to conclude if requested when testify please journey and the name of any organization you dairy we are testifying with regards to council member couches amendment to the county code six point zero four point zero four zero we believe that the line stating within a minimum four feet high fence property should be taken with the remaining wording left intact to the amendment in our daily news of hurt are hurting dogs there are cases where goats have gotten out of fenced areas goats are smart animals and believe it or not one will occasionally figure out how to unlatch a goat and lead an entire h or simple human error of not latching a gate properly will allow the goats to get out in cases like these it is necessary for us to be able to use the herding dogs to get the goats back into their pasture in a timely manner having to leash a dog  twenty to forty of these animals is a pretty much impossible task in addition to that it can put the goats or the dogs in dangerous situations that are unnecessary please keep in mind that these working dogs are trained animals they require at least of all year of training to learn the proper commands and to do this job effectively we urge you to add the amendment without the phrasing regarding the requirement of fencing none of the other exceptions to this rule require this fencing keeping in mind that a lot of the animals that are referenced in these exceptions are not trained for the length of time that these animals are trained and taught proper commands the animal control officers have already issued a suit to citations on this manner and we have wasted time in the county court system trying to fight this issue with them so they are out there they are issuing flight haitians for working dogs currently so we urge this matter to be pushed there as quickly as possible thank you thank you mr followed oh i'm sorry miss we have some questions for you thank you sorry about that thank you for your comments question for you when the when the goats get out are they on private property or public property at that time they have gotten out so where the dairy boarders is a kind of high place and quite often they have gotten out on they've also gotten out to ocean vodkas property on the flip side of us or the easement in between and as well there is a subdivision a residential subdivision that also borders  property and occasionally have they have gotten out of there so it's both public and private property ok part of this is to allow for people to basically have their dogs job to come down visit you guys again really in support of this amendment as she was saying about herding dogs you can imagine that addition that dogs used for farming agriculture guarding hurting or uses service dogs are allowed to be worked without without being tethered i've been doing this for thirty nine years now using dogs all of that time and it's just something that would not be possible to get our job done if the dogs are tethered is just something that i feel is very necessary safety wise for the dog for the  i know when we are discussing it when i was discussing it with several of the ranchers they they were ok with the fence but this is something new now that if we pull the kind of thing out there  that sufficient for you or is the fence inside the fence property is that a concern of yours for us you know us thought fight fence would be something that's necessary for us anyway running and running whether running sheep goats or cattle and so on a fence that will hold them will hold dogs on another note would probably be my home where i do have a couple dogs that run loose because of some of the problems we had with with trouble in the neighborhood would burglaries and whatnot but it is a four foot fence it's a stock fence and so for myself it's you know what i want the dogs to be able to protect i proposed for the committee i don't think so ok so obviously there's my memory it would have been any dog actively working on authorized farm or ranch property so it's basically we realize where in some lands are not fenced in and cattle and you know livestock do get away and they use the dogs to retreat and it could be not on your property but on some of the average property bias that dog is actively working and so that's that's the difference between my version and a version where his is more narrow and mine is a little bit more loose and he defines an active working dog on a farm or ranch property and the key there is a working dog because he'd be under the restraint night we are in for support of any additional changes in county codes to assist ranchers and farmers in order to survive in these challenging business we support the proposed language in the count communications number sixteen dash one eight six a man in section six point zero four point zero four zero my county code related to animal regulations really is follow here an owner of a dog shall keep the dog under restraint except for the following five point dog actively actively working on authorized farm or ranch property that is the language we a four foot fence i can understand the intent but as the others have stated when animals get away and there is no forceful defense i mean the times so that that becomes an issue you know how do you work so however you craft a language you need to include under the command of you know i guess the dog the master of the dog i see so you really prefer the other language th so i think the dogs are fine i don't nor of people having problems you know with with dogs like out of control or being taken to the shelter or you know i don't know i don't have i don't no it's an authorized that's a good question that is the language that is being proposed and i'm thinking authorized to be you know the owner or workers of the ranch or  anyone wishing to provide testimony from the district office is there anyone in the gallery who would like to testify members as there are no further individuals in the concert chamber or district offices wishing to testify members we are now turn to our agenda first on the agenda is h h t dash for two fair market rents for county the committee is in receipt of county communication sixteen dash two or one from the director of housing and human concerns transmitting an update of fair market rent to rates for from the united states department of housing and urban development the committee may discuss fair market rent to rates for the county and their impact on the hood section eight housing voucher program including the ability of vulture holders to be competitive in the current rental market the committee may also consider the filing of county communication chair so the fair market rent and the payment standards before you are based are for our housing voter program which is the federal government's program for assisting very low and extremely extremely low income families to afford decent safe and sanitary housing in the private market housing assistance is provided on behalf of a family or individual participants are able to find housing of their choice such as single family homes townhouses and or apartments housing toys vouchers are administered locally by our housing section eight the program we receive federal funds from the u s department of housing and urban development also known as hyde to run the program for the current fiscal year we are a lot allocated approximately sixteen point nine million dollars with an average of one thousand three hundred ninety families on the program this past year the average assistance provided  equates to approximately twelve thousand two hundred dollars per family per year eligibility for housing voucher is based on the total annual gross income and family size set by hood basically families whose income is considered very low or at fifty percent of the area median income and below can qualify fifty percent of the area median income from is forty eight thousand two hundred fifty dollars so for example a family of four would qualify if their income was less than forty thousand two hundred fifty dollars or less that ten and thirty percent of their income as their portion and the rent and the program subsidizes the remainder of the rent a family that is issued a voucher is responsible finding a suitable housing unit of their choice where an owner agrees to participate under the program as of september fourteenth there are one thousand three hundred eighty three families participating in our program and there are one hundred ninety seven who issued vouchers and and are now searching the maximum number of families that we are able to accommodate is one thousand four hundred sixty four in july we open a by wait list and receive one thousand one hundred forty four applicants and we are currently processing fifty for eligibility as not everyone who i see necessarily qualifies in addition we have thirty families on average that leave the program each month for various reasons such as they no longer need the program because their income levels have elevated or they move off filing historically my families with vouchers have had difficulties in finding units this is basically due to the shortage of rentals in maui that negatively affects ability of section eight participants to find homes as it must compete with families who can afford to pay more so we're very hopeful that this new increases in payment standards will help more f find units this concludes our opening remarks lindemann sell our assistant housing administrator overseas or section eight program and i are here to answer any questions thank you thank you so members i will open the floor for this questions from committee members or any further discussion thank you very much to miss rehman do you have your remarks in writing i was wondering if you're aware of a specific requirements or directive that compete with this program and i'm talking more about the micronesian component the what is the federal government doing to assist us to take care of those pacific islanders that we know the hell out of their home and now they're in hawaii and this county has to put up resources to assist those islanders what is the federal government doing to assist us and is this program one of their assistance my name is linda months i'm the assistant housing administrator for the county they are eligible under this program for potential joyleen unit to their equal or considered equally any as any other person who would apply to our program and who is found eligible so other all your applicants what percent our number is our own people i don't have those numbers in front of us but certainly we can give you information on that and i think that we do have statistics on where the applicants are from so if you are interested in the makeup of our for instance our wait list we can do that i think would be good for us to understand the makeup of total group and the water the driving factors when if more so than coming up a colony must be a reason to com i think you missed the thank you chair you mentioned oh wait list to what is the actual inventory that's available right now it sounds like there isn't anything as far as housing right for the the housing market is really as exceptionally tight the voucher program is so that a person could actually choose the place that they live it's not like we have an inventory of units that we maintain for the section a program although we are working with hollywood to provide a project based voucher so that would help relieve some of the pressure by you know they have to compete with anyone else on the private market so people without boucher's they're competing in the same market with them and you have a need statistics on how many new units are billable for section eight specifically for section eight no i mean they would be the same folks i mean as something that's a mass has just completed the housing survey for us i think we've just received a draft copy of that and one of the things that they provide is statistics on  e housing and out how those numbers in front of me but you know you know obviously our landlords on the section eight program when you agreed to be on the section eight program there are program requirements that you have to agree to abide by that if you rent to a regular person that you don't have to do you know we do annual inspection and we do rant evaluations and things like that so you know even though i would say from the survey that the available housing is x percent of those that are willing to rent to section eight folks would be a much lesser percent than that that's the number that i'm looking for your you have that kind of you don't have a number you don't have a list of landlords that are willing to certainly we have landlords that we work with regularly and we're working hard to try and increase that well how many of those are  it's just that the housing department division gives the section evolved to our qualified section of application the applicant then goes out and looks on the open market for anyone that would be willing to rent to them and so we can't really give you a number of eligible units because you know it might come on the market tomorrow and they might see your need to section eight so we can't really call it that you know or you just you just mentioned that there are certain requirements that a landlord must meet her and those requirements i'm assuming they've got to have a check or checks and balances or some type of application and you don't have a listing of all those who've applied to be a landlord for the on the i guess is not really and it's more like the building has to be up to code they although there has to be like a building inspection done where you have to go in and check to make sure the fixtures work the light switches work that's the type of requirements that you have to meet as a section the landlord so we typically don't have people coming to us and applying and saying i have fifty units i want to be a section eight landlord it's more the tenants will come into the housing division and say i found mr x is willing to write me as home and then they have to send out an inspector to mr x s rental unit to make sure it meets the qualifications so it's i understand what you mean and if there was an abundance of willing landlords we probably would work something like that but right now we're actually be opposite where it's kind of a shortage  of i guess are available units for section eight yeah i just wanted to get down to what we're working with like if there's only ten years there then maybe we need to start looking you don't keep that in a data base source and they don't i mean we've got thirteen hundred ninety someone or thirteen hundred eighty three families who are on the program now who are actively in a unit and those units are obviously qualified to be on our program the trick is the next person who comes in you know obviously they're not going to live in the same units are going to bring a different unit to us and we're going to do an inspection for that but you know any landlord out there could be a qualified have a qualified unit for us we simply have to go out and look look at them to merit by that they are eligible to be on the program we have landlords who are  very wonderful to work with and who are like to work with us as well and so you know obviously if someone comes in we will give those landlords names and phone numbers to the tenant and say these people have worked with us in the past  if they have a unit they are likely to work with you as well but you know again there's no guarantee of that and we're not limited to just those those landlords just one more question of yes  please yes it's they have sixty days once they received a voucher and they have sixty days to find a unit if they are unable to they can request a thirty day extension which we typically extend and after that if they can't they can  submit for the requests based on their extenuating circumstances so they would go at the bottom of the list or the stay where they are on the list after that ninety days they would be either dropped or if they have extenuating applied to the wait list so if you are a resident of our county and you apply to our wait list then you could actually utilize that voucher anywhere in the united states in the united states in the united states who has a program like ours if you apply to our wait list and you don't happen to live here when you do apply you must actually move here and live here for at least a year unless again there's extenuating circumstances there was one year or requirement of residen understood if it's the same it's the same thing i mean a person who lives in california and wants to wants to move to maui they can transport their voucher here they can utilize their about you're here as well so it works both ways  know so they could they could yeah in order to apply for the county you have to live by either you have to live here for a year or if you lived here when you applied you could live elsewhere sorry probably has some sort of there's probably some sort of case law on it that the right to travel was not impeded because you could transport the existing section a vulture from a jurisdiction to  and vice versa so the one year residency requirement wouldn't be impeding someone's right to travel but i'm sure there's this is a federal rule and it's our administrative plan is based off of the federal guidelines from the department of housing and urban development so we'll look into that further thank you thank you chief thank you members any further questions or comments for the department or any reference to this particular agenda that we're rents that we're talking about actually these are specifically maui county numbers one of the things that the council was very kind enough to do for us last fall was subsidized or to pay for the study that  s did as part of that was the fair market rent study and we needed that very desperately and it was very very useful to us usually fair market rents are based off of like the buy ten year census and then they do updates on various other things and and use the consumer price index to adjust those rate rents unfortunately that danger lags bice eighteen months to three years depending on  know the situation and in a market like ours where the rents are rising so quickly that is a very serious detriment to the folks on our program so these fair market rents that you're looking at now are based on maui county numbers and  consider using another amp that the because i want to see if the results change i've had enough s m s reports i'm looking for a third party point of view so i would ask you to consider that thank you thank you is the hook on the members any further questions or comments for the department can you explain when you mention normal section a program the voucher can be used anywhere in a market that's as tight as this it's very difficult for our shareholders to find units under a project based voucher program the  voucher is actually tied to a specific unit so that unit can only be rented to a section eight tenant and section a client so it's for us a very significant advantage when the project is finally  complete we'll have another i believe it's fifty or thirty nine units that will be available specifically for section eight folks and it can only be used in that project so would that include also the island of if if another landlord such as they apply to us and they wanted to do a project race voucher we would actually consider that it's an application process that has project up in so you would only these projects be saucers would be tied directly to that specific project however if you were a regular individual with a regular boucher certainly you could use that voucher a information i can i hesitate to bring it up but i think it's important to know about it how does this and can it be used for the we kept talking and hearing about for the long time  to a rental assistance but instead you've actually purchased a home and we are subsidizing your mortgage payments instead and the idea is that at the end of a certain period of time and i believe it's fifteen years you would graduate off of the section eight program and you would be making your mortgage payments on your own but it's very similar to the rental assistance program so if a person had a boettcher and they bought a home they could use the section eight voucher to pay their mortgage they could obviously it's a little more complicated than just deciding to buy a home there there actually is a qualification process that they go through and some classes that they need to attend by once that's occurred in the found a place that they want to buy and qualify for the mortgage yes indeed it's very it's very similar you know looking at the payment standards that we have we have now they could so much and you know i want to tell you guys how much i appreciate this you know it is so important i know that you like me you probably know a lot of people who use these six in a boat years and it's kind of pathetic some of them just cannot find a place we're not putting it up but a lot of people ask because you know they're desperately looking looking for places to live so again thank you very much and thank you chair for having this discussion today i think it's a real well you know if  going further with what she's saying is that is a possible when we're talking about the project based valid jurors those are for specific buildings or units right and  of a type project as you has it ever been done because i know there's a lot of u s d a out there you know what i'm not i don't know specifically about this what the mix of funding is for  country where this project base is will be put in place i do know that they have applied for a mix of funding partly affordable housing funding i know they've low income housing tax credit funding and they know that in other projects i believe in other projects they have used on u s d a funding also what they're mix is up there right now i don't i don't know certainly i can look at their application and that want to give me a good idea if you really are interested but usually when we see these affordable projects they do have to utilize a whole range of different funding sources you know some county some petrol summer home funding often is found in  clear about who you cannot rent to and that would preclude your daughter from renting from you unless there is a reasonable accommodation requirement for instance if she were disabled and needed  assistance that you could provide because of the location of the unit or if there is something very special about her needs that would say that she needed to have that unit generally not but there are some exceptions mostly for disability oaky so in the mind of that question to at you know you hear all sort of possibilities we have multigeneration our shared housing option i believe that went into effect in march of this year again trying to address the tight rental market and so yes it's it's possible to rent to just a single room in a home and it could be one section  homelands units as well as non hawaiian homelands units in my experience the issue has been whether the individual qualifies to live in that unit under the white homelands rules and regulations  would not be something that we that would keep us from allowing them to rent that unit okey thank you mr okama i thank you for allowing me to ask more questions sure that the one thing now whenever we get a request for tenancy from a landlord who wants to rent to a section eight person or inspector goes out to take a look at that unit to verify its condition and the amenities and things like that associated with the with the property they then go back to the office and they look on for equivalent units you know similar neighborhood summer quality number of bedrooms the amenities that they might have and they verify their market rents for those other units as well and there's a process that they go through to adjust you know so if this house that they're looking at has a carport the one that they're comparing it to only you know has an actual garage there's an adjustment that they make so that they try to determine what that landlord could actually get for the unit on the open market not just to a section eight person so there is always a chance that a landlord will attempt and we see it to increase rents because the rent is subsidized there are some controls that are in place to help preclude that from happening obviously it's not one hundred percent but i think it does a very good job but certainly there is concern that that this will have a ripple effect on the market and the attempt is made that it should not or you hope for the shooting that's but we very practical realistic people w we'd be interested in what actually happens out there in the community keep in mind we also only have fourteen hundred some odd vouchers there are lots and lots of units out there so there's lots of comparable data for us to see what's really happening in the market the effect that that the section eight program will have if any is small now there are landlords who choose specifically to rant to section eight people  and and there are some really terrific landlords out there who work with us constantly and they decrease their rent in order to keep or to to rent to a certain individuals and so i understand your concern but i'm also seeing the other and where all right i've made a sacrifice and now all right it's going to get a little bit easier for us we can continue to rent to these people and still cover the cost of our mortgage and insurance for our unit so lease for any period that they they would like or they could go to a month to month rental at that point ok but the requirements for an initial one year and there's no our dilemma is if say i was a renter landlord and i wanted go two years could i opt for that which one year is the maximum start up point and then go from there you know i don't know the answer that most landlords ask for one unless you know fewer months then right now sorry i don't have any point for our section eight program one section eight and then from there it depends month to month six months it would really depend on the landlord and the  oh i'm sorry it's by so then just a make it very quick i am kind of my interest is piqued with the idea of month to month i was told that that was not a low because then it's short term rental you know now the landlord tenant code is a different thing our program requirements is something else but my understanding well again from my experience in section eight it's a one year it's a one year lease and then after that if they want if they choose to go to month to month that's up to them we don't necessarily in section eight renew the lease it's you know unless told otherwise it automatically goes to a month a month so we are doing month to month rentals after the initial first year yes as i know they've had the initial first year jeff has got like it terrified me because we housing choice vulture program check but as far as the colony condoning a month to month lease or anything like that is that has nothing to do it all i know is that when we signed the initial contract it is for a one year term but section eight is housing division is not getting into whether or not a month to month lease is a short term rental for real property tax purposes at all thank you thank you but it do the six month or one year lease after that you can go month to month and it doesn't it doesn't break the order the difference is somebody has lived there for six months i mean six months or a year and that's all the code says you have to be there minimum six months so once you're past that minimum you go month to month now if somebody else would if that person leaves and somebody else comes in that has to go back to a minimum six months let me make a comment and i think it i'm you know i very glad to see that there was an increase in the payment standards so that you know i guess people who have those vouchers are at least have a competitive ability to get vi for certain units but on the other hand what is you know just as personal information i'd like to know what would what would what's the incentive of of the landlord i mean if you're offering a competitive market that that person is going to pay one thousand three hundred twenty three dollars versus a person who has a voucher what is the incentive of the landlord to to go with the person with a valid share versus somebody who isn't in the section eight you know what is the incentives for go ahead mr ladley you know there's there's actually a couple of incentives you know the economy you know some some times it's good and sometimes it's bad when you have a section eight tenant do you know that that tenant will always be able to afford their rent because they're only paying thirty percent of their income as their portion and the rest a bit of it is going to be subsidized through our program so there's the first one the second one is we also do annual inspections and that can be good and that can be bad some landlords are not excited about the fact that we're requiring them to make repairs to their units but we also require the tenants to make repairs units when the tenant has caused damage so there is significant there is some significant incentive for a tenant to not tear your place apart i know that there are all kinds of stories about section eight tenants you know ruining a place and moving out but if the landlord notifies that a tenant has done and the tenant has not made good i think the best thing i've heard this afternoon is the information you just gave about the damage you know when i talk to bieber that have units their biggest complaint is about damage this is you know we sure we get the check every month and you know we do this but then people would damage the unit and leave and then we're stuck repairing all that stuff so really if they were to report the damage to you they still have a tenet in the unit they might get some help with the tenant is required to keep the unit you know in good repair i mean obviously there's the where normal wear and tear things but it again we don't want to have it's part of their obligations their family obligations and when they sign an agreement with us that's part of what they're agreeing to is that they are going to maintain the unit in an appropriate manner and if they fail to meet those obligations obviously you are still the landlord you must still do the landlord things by if or notified and we can show their proof then absolutely there are some there are some pressure on them and i think there's a very good for people to hear this because i don't think a of people know that and they just kind of assume like they're stuck with it now now can i just want to just clarify you know we are we are applying our program rules you know so it's not that we are the landlord or acting for you or acting or agent they have agreed they have an obligation to treat a unit in a certain way and so we are simply enforcing our own rules thank you any further comments or questions fact that what is the incentive on the i guess the landlords behalf if we're going to increase you know the affordability of the client or you know renter to pay then where is it assisting the growth but you know i see the point that the landlord it's the guaranteed income they don't have to worry is my tenant going to make rent this month or not because you know they're signed on to this long term lease and what have you i'm hoping and have been told the possibility of fifteen hundred rental units in west maui and so that would be hopefully something like this can help assist people getting into those units but i guess at that point would be the choice of the developer owner to take these vouchers or not so i just something to discuss once that comes online your department you know the community or what have you but my question is how long does it take a person you know to to go through the whole application process and from application to i've got my vote or amend my home is there like a guesstimation of sorts of how long that could take i'm sure it depends but it average i guess an average of one has all the ones in a row  and it takes i mean a part of it is i mean they're sent out when they're notified that they have been pulled from the wait list they are sent documents that tell them you know you need to complete this application you need to submit to this amount of documentation you know income assets that kind of stuff if they get that right back to us they could be you know processed and found eligible or ineligible very quickly at that point then they would need to go through a briefing and after the briefing they're issue so it just depends on how quickly they can get the documents back to us sorry but quickly is a week ten days a month three months so i was just they have  clients who were wonderful about getting their paperwork to us and then we've had clients are terrible ok and does this just include the rent no or does it include utilities or any other type of living expenses so the calculation is that we pay thirty percent of their income for rent and utilities so we do take utilities into consideration not things like cable and satellite t v and that kind of stuff anyways we'll see how this works out hopefully for the best thank you thank you members department any further comments you missed the victim action you mention a moment ago for you can put up the antenna any more and get any there's no analog and you know i just thought there was curious because there is a real world we live in it has become on the cess of the not an option when the days of analog you could do that but for your wonderful questions and those insightful comments appreciated thank you we have no further questions or comments or clarification members without objections i will defer this matter i think i think we can move on to the do you need a break members the second item on today's agenda is eight t dash for zero animal and titled a bill for an ordinance amending section six point zero four point zero four zero county call relating to animal regulations for dog by one adding an exception to the requirement that an owner of a dog keep the dog and be restrained when a dog is a service dog or is used for farming agriculture gardy or herding and is within fence property of a specific specified minimum height to the rising animal control officers do county parks and recreation or facilities to we are in receipt of communicate county communication sixteen dash one eight six from council vice chair county relating to animal regulations the purpose of the proposed bill is to amend a call by adding an exception to the requirement that an owner of a dog keep the dog under restraint when a dog is actively working on the rise farm or ranch property the committee may consider whether to recommend passage of the proposed bills on first reading with or without revisions the committee may also consider the filing of county communications sixteen dash one eight five and six n dash one eight six and other related action was within a four foot fenced area it would be under issue by definition in a sense because he'd be in a fenced in area but on we just left it at dogs utilized for farming agricultural purposes and herding need not be under individual and they could put their arguments in with a judge in the circuit garden the district court in that each dish area would be their call at that point the next section was on service dogs where being under a street interferes with the service dogs work or the individual's disability prevents them from placing the service dog under restraint this language is from the a t m i believe the humane society assisted us in providing us some language on that and that's essentially the a t l language that they they too want the animal tethered i'd also like to point out that for generally speaking under a strain it's for all dogs and if one of these dogs were to misbehave and do something that would get them deemed the dangerous dogs then there's a whole new set of controls that they would need to comply with but these are just for general dogs who you know haven't done anything wrong yet but they are i guess working in that sense either for eg purposes or for service dog purposes and we we didn't make any changes to the animal control which is simply just citing the park's code section in title thirteen re into animals in saying that the animal control officers are also authorized to issue citations for the park sections believe that summarizes it thank you thank you i'll be calling on mr something and i came here i understand some of the argument regarding herding requirements on that property owners land i'm concerned about the other people's property so what is the county's exposure because we saying that they are both those they need to be the for various reasons but now it's on somebody else's property causing an issue you as the animal or i shouldn't see this animal as the dog owner decides to let your animal go on to other people's private property and trespass as you yourself would also probably be on someone else's property technically trespassing that's that's that individual's concern we're just saying that if you're engaging in animal control acting or things are not animal control farming agricultural purposes and herding activities you not have your dog under restraint it's is the same as if even if the dog was on a leash and you decide to walk on to your neighbor's property you're still not supposed to be there technically so under so the county's exposure i believe would be limited ok thank you good thank you for me can be supportive of this but for me what i would say is the dog needs to be registered and i don't care who can be  about the dog needs to be registered with proof that the thought has been certified as a properly trained for the job is intended to perform because i don't need to get into a pis certified dog or trained dog ok so they got to register them and it has a social proof that this is what they say it is a train registered working dog dog is just saying they're using it for farming agricultural purposes and herding doesn't have to be under strain it's still if your dog goes off you're still subject to the penalties of you know under six point zero four as is and it's the same that even the guy who doesn't keep their dog on the anywhere else is subject to that exact same penalties just it doesn't say that if your dog is off leash and something goes wrong your dog is not subject to the dangerous dog laws you're still subject to it regardless of whether or not your dog is allowed to be under strain or not i guess that's why i don't know if there's a certifying body so that may be a difficult system to implement for the individuals trying the nuances of the sunshine law i tried to think of over but i didn't want to so i'm fine with the language here the reason we had the i was working with the some of the ranchers the reason we brought this up is because apparently some of them were getting tagged for having dogs not on the leash in their doing their job so we wanted to make that exception the reason we did the fence was somebody said that they want to be able to have their dog in their yard and be able to run around without having to be on a lease leash and my thought was well that's ok if there's a fence if there's not a fence that i believe that's probably not a good a good thing to allow because there is no no restraint now as restraint and that's why it would be good to allow the dog to run around without restraint and i think several this i had heard that some of this came up with and it may have been a prior to mr wilson being here that people were getting tagged for having a dog in their yard inside a fence but not on a leash so that's why i added that cox brought up a very good point we may want to change the word is that it utilized to actively engaged in farming or act just so once you take the dog home would have to be under restraint which just by definition means that's exactly what i was going to utilize the wording utilize to basically be saying why didn't my dog that's sitting there in the back of my truck is being utilized for agriculture so it's kind like you're just identifying a dog so in order to narrow the scope you need that dog needs to be actively engaged in the process and that's why i put actively working so the the dog is actively working a farm or a property then for the purposes of farming or agriculture you should also add the word here ranching purposes and gardening because we've received testimony via e mail that shows pictures of dogs that are actually sleep with the herd and so it's a dog's actively engaged in farming or for farming or cultural purposes and ranching reply dogs actively engaged for farming or cultural purposes and ranching i believe most livestock would fall under ranching or farming or agricultural purposes  and most of the activities so i believe it should be well covered and actively engaged portion would mean once the dogs oh it work it has to be comply with under a street laws for the county thank you thank  you before we go any further with more comments i would like to hear from the department with us today besides the director of department of housing and human concern director of humane enforcement of  that you guys have worked out most of my concerns coming from another area where we did have branch dogs that were exempt from leash law we have problems of not having definitions of where and when they can be in place so far i think the only thing concern i have as long as we have a definition of actively working for him in our culture guardian hurting there shouldn't be an issue as far as i know i don't recall citing anybody for actively hurting their dogs on their own property we do we have cited people for having their dogs off their property and creating other issues but they were actively hurting so reading over the the new recommendations and amendments and not seen anything other than that i can object to it right now know the dog the dog is actively engaging as long as we have some sort of definition and way of actually verifying that this is going on and then i don't see a problem and of course obviously being on their own property and not hurting over somebody else's property is also another war that comes in effect anyway thank you chair i think as this body probably knows even better than me coming off with any type of definition when it comes to one bar being reggie agriculture really means is difficult what i'd like to hope is that the animal control officers would use their best judgment in issuing citations and while it may be an inconvenience or a difficulty for the farmers and again i'm hoping that the best judgment is used that it will be up to a judge to make that determination as to whether or not the individual is actively engaged in farming or cultural purposes and ranching and i know that's a difficult thing for this body to  trust with but it's very hard to come up with a definition that would satisfy the needs of everyone so that satisfactory thank term even though i'm not a lawyer a reasonable the reasonable man reasonable person standard where somebody would say yeah if you look at the picture that we were given here yeah  that's obvious that they're doing it the whole idea is to give mr wilson and his group the opportunity to say to somebody who's obviously not doing any of that but letting their dog run around saying no sorry that doesn't work and then like you said if they challenge it then let the judge i don't take any of these guys here first of all would get cited because if i see a herd of goats like that and the couple dogs are there i think any reasonable person would say yeah they're i know the a d a s has a definition of service dogs but as you probably are aware somebody can go online and get a vest for a dog and they can be a service dog and we had this question one of our other committees i'm pretty sure but you can't ask them to show papers because it's a hipaa violation that's what maybe you missed it but if the federal saying you know because we define it in here we're going to be we could be in trouble but i'm just saying that i think this language the way it is going to work well i just have a little concern on the concerns thank you chair i feel comfortable defining it the same as the americans with disabilities act and again this is simply our leash law you know under extreme got to you know be controlled and there'd be the same thing if the individual and the animal control officer are in disagreement as to whether the animal is a service dog as defined under the a t f and if it's against some sort of regulation for the animal control officer to request proof he can issue the citation and it will be up to a judge to make that determination as to whether that dog meets the  members any other comments a question department thank you chair again just to reiterate that this is only for under restraint the dogs are still subject not necessarily the owner's property and the dog is hurting or following and let's say they take several days and the dog stays with the herd and spends the night there with the herd and  i guess enforcement calms by and the dog is with the herd i don't that's active actively engaged in the other scenario is the dog gets loose by himself or herself is roaming around if that dog is found without the share without any other supervision or without any hurt nearby so that's not actively engaged so i can see the definitions there that are very plain in a parent thank you so members at this time no further discussion with rick b for the question before you i will entertain a motion to recommend john first reading of a revised the bill for an ordinance amending section six point zero four point zero four zero mo we call relating to more regulations for dog restraints and section six point zero four point zero nine zero moey county court relating to animal control officers and fining of county communication sixteen dash one eight five sixteen dash one eight six a motion in place and a second in regards to recommending passage on first reading up for revised proposed bill a animal control officers and filing of county communications any further discussion members mrs bison thank you very much or i'd like to speak in support of the motion and i'd like to think as well as the members i those opposed members we have five yes one no and one excuse so the bill is now into so today we have completed our agenda members and i'd like to thank the representatives from administration including mr mark wilson and also like to thank our staff  our members i'd like to thank you for being here and for your due diligence on this particular item or both of the items that we've dealt with today's agenda there be no further discussion this time i'd like to meeting of september twenty twenty sixteen of the housing human services and transportation committee meeting adjour