specifically and to go to achieve a year of terri status from your perspective what is the end if from our perspective the interferences that several of the students who would otherwise be attending integrated schools doesn't the students who otherwise be attending integrated schools are unsettling be attending the one recently to graze and obviously increasing the number of one race elementary schools also hammers desegregation efforts and now in other words position is then that the charter school cannot exist and this pact no your honor our position is that if the charter school is going to exist it needs to exist as a desegregated school in the same time if it does students who are being deprived the right to innovate education those are the students reasoning going to bases in the students who are attending the one race schools in the parish and those are the scenes we're concerned about one of the options it doesn't but one of the options would be to close the school of course honor but there are other barnet cetera et cetera so it comes up to us from the dish accordant part of what's appeal to us sent back to the district court because because so just talk to me for a moment about i mean reality that you know the school open ended cetera et cetera as i gather you and others were still working on the cassette to create cetera so in reality what's the relief you seek from opening to fully consider all of the green factors and then to consider whether there are reasonable or churches that could be placed on the charter school to ensure that it is offering students the integrated education that they're entitled to and those reasonable restrictions can include  closing the school as judged ali pointed out or can include things that are far less severe than that as such as subjecting the school to the desegregation standard that the parties adopted for it for schools going forward and so do is to recruit white students and to make this is much of a law mixed race going to this weekend and they come back again and they say honor we've done everything that you said and to try to recruit we've gone to other counties we've gone to that to this parish and we're going to this parish as well and we're not making any headway but we've done everything that we can do what would be your piece dish and then if the school facts are just but but obviously if they had tried and done everything that they could the plaintiffs would write some things take that into consideration but still it seems to me that you you've got the primary issue that i would see in the case is but then that you know begs a question that should be and should this independent school district that has no history whatsoever of any racial discrimination or racial bias or has new school district within that parish and this court sitting on box said that the new parish that was being created out of the former parish was subject to the same standard that i'm saying is applicable to greater grace which is one does new school district yes your honor and again i would say that the examples of the state coming in and creating a new school district from within addition that's subject to desegregation order this court and the supreme court both accept that those new districts even though they obviously are being created out of an old district are still subject to considerations of whether about how they affect the whole district in its effort city segregate how does the i like the you know the earlier days when these cases  cases currently posture is everybody in the case needs to be in that case you know what i'm saying in order to factually putting aside for the moment what the relief is if the eighty but is everybody in i think the answer is that bessie made a very clear and louisiana over by statute seventeen three nine nine one it's very clear that the state's position is that their charter schools that open up in districts that are subject to the segregation winners are also subject to the same orders and so i and i also think the state is represented here under the easy in a state law of the parish board is an agent of the state and obviously the charter is authorized by the s c and so crashes and there is subject to what does that mean subject to the desegregation orders are they subject to the desegregation orders as an independent school district that has no history of racial discrimination are they subject to their order the same as if they had racial discrimination and had a past of unconstitutional conduct come in it's still no question again that the state law is said that the district is subject to the desegregation or here st james parish is still under its never achieve unitary says it's still subject to desegregation or and the issue again is that the state if the state were to come in as it has in other instances and created a new school a new school district will sail from an old district that was subject to a desegregation order that the district also has to demonstrate the same things a gr trade and that the district court failed to consider the district court didn't consider the application of the green factors here they didn't consider you know whether reasonable restrictions could be placed on greater grace and  essentially adopted a freedom of choice plan and found that the racial demographics of st james hirsch indicated that it would be a one way school briefly want to touch on your question just jolly about however if the very similar situation where a charter school requested authority to operate with ninety six percent white student body and judge james ultimately rejected the charter school because he found that it would be overturned is that you can select segregated education however when you later after changing the enrollment procedures through the district courts that essentially when the exempting minorities from the lottery proceed under state law that charter school is able to come back with one third minority population i was with a group that would be reasonable method that the district court should consider in this case but it didn't consider any alternatives that merely held that the students want to go to the school it is their choice which this court has in fact we said of the last forty years and most recently in the common this is but freedom of choice plans cannot be acceptable over let me ask you about the efforts of this charter school to try to agreed in a concern whether that students from the local school board could transfer to the charter school as long as it would qualify as if it were news and i'm sure it's a minority transfer that type of consideration could be should be used in this case as well if the parties were able to agree to it but that's that's not what this report help this report really allowed us charter schools operate and this is the reason why we are asking this court to adopt standards that district courts you use when considering how to approach the issue of should a charter school be allowed to operate in a parish without going to segregation obligations as mr ross indicated in louisiana was very clear that charter schools are subject to the that it is important to consider how this affects the the plans of us as students but our main focus is on the impact of the school board because as the uncontested evidence below reflects the local school board is basically a loss of two million dollars in the first year of the operation of the charter school and at least one of its schools was facing a loss of thirty percent of its student population which i would submit is a very high when the district could could school board that even those facing the problem of loss of thirty percent students it's making strides to address the student population there as teacher stuart indicated earlier he was asking about the procedure may and that just you know there is something some charter schools succeed others fail on me some try to school as a successful others are quite unsuccessful is that any kind of record as to whether this charter school i thirty five thousand foot altitude questions you know about standards and so only so forth but this matters up before is coming up from the trial court which the principal claim is that you  primed to provide or unquote as opposed to trying to really look at the procedural posture here as i said here you know school was allowed to operate and so it is operating so my question to you like a did to the other is sort of a practical one before the great grace comes up the reality is assuming we were to send it back to the district court  desegregation context because it asked three questions first whether the charter school has complied with the standing desegregation orders in the case second how it impacts the local school board or if it promotes re courts that are dealing with that have been grappling with this problem for the last decade and as judge james recently stated in the lincoln parish desegregation case over the last decade he's asked attorneys to give him any other authority on how to handle issues that arise with charter schools and the only case that the attorneys have cited for his own opinion secondly i would ask that this court hold and and that the freedom of choice plan that the district court essentially adopted is unacceptable in this case because there was no finding that such a plan would work in this court and cowan has explicitly stated that the district court has to show that these types of plans will work  while this court very well closed the school i think remanding for a full hearing on not only you know the impact of the loss of money on the school board the impact of the loss of schools what remedies are scuse me what restrictions to be placed on the school board i think please the court of michael higgins on behalf of greater grace charter academy your honour's this case has been pending for fifty two years and district court throughout that time the local school district has made little progress in terms of achieving unitary status in fact the district court's opinion ruling in the matter at hand stated that their efforts have been nominal at best is that a private school in this parish i believe there is that's not on the record however in terms of night you know new news mr higgins you know there are many of these cases in state in otherwise what a board and nobody else has asked for you to tears datas just as upright dramatic as there's things going on they work it out it cetera so there are plenty of these where there's been no unity mean so the history of it didn't really tell us a lot except it does been going on well that is correct your honor however what i would mention is that the one of the primary goals of desegregation litigation is to restore students to the position that they would have been in in the absence of the unconstitutional discriminatory conduct if you look around the state of louisiana there are many districts that are not subject to desegregation litigation because either they status or they never were subject to a court desegregation order and those parishes charter schools are free to operate so long as they meet all of the requirements put in place by the best  case as stated in the statute giving rise to them provide innovative learning opportunities for in particular app risk students with the viability of georgia schools not in not front center is the issue here you're right there lot of but i mean that's just like saying you know there are lots of states in which you know they want these lawsuits so yeah i mean it's true but it doesn't prove anything so they are those like here where there was a desegregation order that was under federal jurisdiction that existed in sol the charter schools sort of entered the picture subject to that being the case right that is right all right so here greater grace emerges when there is an existing you know court order desegregation order in there in i take it you don't disagree with counsel's assertion that the state law otherwise say is a charter school or guess any other school created by bessie is subject to whatever ails government schools right yes or right or in terms of the particular statute at issue i would say that for type two schools it is not entirely clear on its face counselor earlier mentioned that the statute states the charter school shall be subject to the i desegregation order and in fact for me paris or district where the school is operating it actually does not contain the words is operating just states that it will be subject to the desegregation order for the parish or city school district the question for type two charter becomes what happens where they're attracting students from multiple parishes that may or may not partner with the type to the type to a charter school is a charter school that is authorized directly by bessie funded directly by the state and is allowed to admit students from anywhere within the state they aren't limited to particular school districts so with the type to school district they may be operating in multiple pair or they may be attracted students from multiple parishes there could be three very different desegregation orders in effect for those parishes the charter schools for example are in the present that are greater basic could be located just across the parish line have the exact same students yet still tension lee on the subject to one desegregation order or the other it's not exactly clear on its face i would argue that this ambiguity does need to be resolved whether that's through the legislature or through the the court present court but in general i would say that what we need to that what needs to be determined is what is best for these students and what is going to put these students in the position that they would be here in the absence of the district's unconstitutional behavior i would argue that that maybe that maybe the  opening of this charter school for example to an opening of a new housing development perhaps one just slide that takes a large number of students out of the district what do you have what do you have to say about their argument that we should district court to follow judge james and his handling of the charter school in that district i would say that all the prior litigation involving what step district needs to take to achieve unitary status deal with the insular nature of that district itself and what that district is or is not doing this charter school and i would argue all types or all type to charter schools  a separate external factor that are not part of this district system they have not taken away any part of the tax base for the parish district school they haven't taken building away from the district they haven't taken any land they  chosen to remain within the district system itself then they would be entitled to that funding but if the students are no longer attending the district school district should have no claim to that funding again it's a purpose people basis of the people is not going that may come out no worse than it is but one of the better way to put it or its status may be unchanged but given the reality that there is a pending you know the korean federal jurisdiction and the reality that not withstanding your parts of the language the best statute says quote you know it's subject to the same rules so to speak so what's the objection legally i guess and i get it you can distinguish to the hilt you know each one of these but the reality is if it's if the best instead to say charges don't have to be separated that's one thing but you're not arguing that it's not and so my question to you is what is the objection legally to greater grace being backed down in a district court and subject to the district court taken into account all the factors including the arguments you make about its effect or not only unitary status i can't say that i have an objection necessarily to returning to the district court with appropriate standards given by this court in terms of green specifically however i do think that any more appropriate standard for a charter school would be simply assessing whether that school has in good faith attempted to open up in a segregated school district as well as every parish is different and the decrees basically say the opening of any school and it's not predicated that you have to have opened it would mendacity racially in order to do it says any school and so it's in effect what is effective and so there's no showing a greater grace had to being created for the purpose of furthering you know segregation but the reality is there's an existing degree a district in which the schools have not been dean punitive so it would seem to follow the opening of any school in this case it's a charter school but it could be i don't hold some kind of magnet school or any of the many kinds of schools they were open in eighty's in order to deal with it desegregation campus here it's a charter school so the question is given it is a school that was created but in the mill you are where it is an existing desegregation decree why should it not be subject to the district court evaluating all the factors your honor i do agree that as the statute currently stands despite the gear he and despite the fact that there is not necessarily a straight correlation between green and the charter school i do think that the lower court does have the ability to assess whether charter school itself will be segregated and whether that charter school will have any unconstitutional discriminatory behavior on its own i would argue again however that the charter schools behavior as opposed to the behavior of the district court district school district that has been found to be unconstitutional discriminatory i believe that's comparing two very different things and they should not necessarily get help to the same standard that can then not comparing two different things it's saying if you're entering you your client statute that says expressly charter schools get a pass then i'm trying to understand the position of greater grace not to be civic to the district court if i win all over i'm not asking a question that suggested greater grace because or immediately but just that it doesn't appear least to me to just court took into account all the relevant factors in terms of the populations the multi pairs nature of it attracting kids from all over it being a type two it's set or it just seems the district court says well it's another one way school it's no worse then it was and i'm having trouble with how it sufficient legally yes your honor i would say that i would rely on and this is not strictly a desegregation case but the parents involved in  schools case that the supreme court handed down a few years back in that case the court found that a school district that was or a school system that was not subject to a desegregation order because it had not engaged in unconstitutional behavior or because it had previously achieved unitary status could not use racial factors in terms of assigning students to particular schools or not allowing students to attend other schools i would say that greater grace is in a similar situation because greater progress has not engaged in this unconstitutional behavior greater grace attracted students  from several different parishes and these students if the green factors are fully applied and then limitations are placed upon the structures school the students who are not typically subject to this desegregation order would be affect attract a sufficient number of students they simply won't be able to continue operations so your stand it any candidate desegregation order that would require you to increase white population arsenal would be impossible to achieve i wouldn't say that it would be impossible to achieve and certainly the school has taken many steps to increase it population the school does read that there are benefits to children attending integrated schools other question is whether other should be strict guidelines and limits placed upon them by a court for an actor that the unconstitutional alesha means that this other districts committed because they merged together and made you guilty of the sense of the people that are in the other in the other district x and you're saying that's unfair it's what you do you or how do you know if the district is truly independent how do you order a district that is committed no constitutional violations to remedy uncommon of violations if they have not committed that the state of that parish is i know we can go back and back and back and back and i'm talking about this injunction does not enjoying the state of louisiana from doing anything as far as i know it enjoins the district to do this and not to do this while your honor it enjoins public schools that are opening in this district and that is what plate is concerned i'm to get this is a public school there's that but the injunction in other words they can that's a fair representation your honor but again i would point out that this is the issue here is that this is a public school and which is under a vast majority of the students are are coming from st james parish that there are students who are entitled to an integrated education and that there are students who are being deprived of that as well as obviously that their students have not been deprived of it they're being deprived integrated education yet right children of st james parish but your honor you know i hate to resist your hypothetical but but here again we do have a consent decree in which students in the parish the hope is that that consent decree will be don emigrant and the parish has an open magnet schools that have been successful over the last ten or fifteen years and obviously we were hopeful that this is new consent decree will address that but i didn't want to address a few other issues that came up  undeniable that the opening of this new charter school would would be a result in further segregation and they believe that the court should have remained this issue providing the dish report with the applicable and proper standards