with that is there anyone right there is no unfinished or table items this week and it's will move on to new business we have a s i plan review for the new industrial warehouse he located at five forty five eastern the second street american b property as it's currently being used for an industrial warehouse facility along with some associated office use the new owner would like to demolish a large part of the property  with the mouse is going to work everyone  a slow moving mouse anyways on the property there's about a sixteen thousand square foot office area that is going to remain the rest of the of the industrial building is to be demolished and in its place the african is going to build a new one hundred thousand square foot warehouse and in that is all fermented in the i one  plan review with conditions noted good evening my name is justin long strath with more emerging khinjan ears for site designers for this site and we've mark did a pretty good job of summarizing what we're looking to do on the site is pretty straightforward although where hired house portion of the existing guess i'd entertain any specific questions that you guys might have also i have representatives from the owner and then also the contractor will be working on this project if there's any specific questions you may have for them as well  noted on the site i don't believe that there's any manufacturing no more distribution and the question are all right with that this thank you any of the other representatives wish to come and make a comment staff report support for what was just like make a comment if i could before they vote on this so if there's a representative from the company here i think that's what i heard the gentleman say i would just like t thank you for this investment at this site and for me i think maybe some would look at that site and look at all the reasons why we can't do development here or look for another location and instead you look for the  that you could make this project happen and i just want one express our appreciation on behalf of the city for your investment here and the existing property it's there is easy there are two existing homes located on the property one is owner occupied in one is is a rental property and there are two vacant properties and that the two existing homes are to stay so the development is basically and the vacant property in single family homes is what is being requested requirements as well as our requirements and chapter thirty three which is our subdivision for dents and applicable sections and chapter twenty two which is our section on sidewalks and and he's on that property and he's worked the property as an evergreen nursery all those years and even before that even before he owned it he actually worked the property in high school were there for somebody else so he's intimately familiar with the property he actually knows every thing about their property everything about this area of course and it's probably a little bit of a bittersweet thing for him to stop there and then move on to something different  plans in normal circumstances will they be wet or dry normal circumstances they'll be dry just for heavy rain events they gather water till it can dissipate out more slowly and then drain out but as they normally sit there conditions given by the staff and recommendations to the city council for the variance of sex play and support and any comments all right all those in favor  just so everybody knows that that should be on the agenda i believe for the city council meeting on wednesday november twenty eighth will be a check the agenda is but that that should be when it comes before council thank you that was reserved in the heather would years ago when that was approved and it was it was provided to provide access to this property at some essence dead end into the new development i don't sense a real great amount of interest on the commission to engage in something like that but my own sense we've had this right of way for a long period of time i'd prefer that we simply make sure that the development is approved and all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed before we vacate the right of way because once that is done it is done so it's not so much that i have a great desire to see something happen with it at this point i just want to make sure that ultimately before we vacate something we have an understanding as to why we're doing it and the reasons we're doing it are actually going to come to fruition those are my thoughts on thank you and anyone i would move that we table this matter for period of  sixty days i'm sorry i will give you a brief introduction to this this is a proposal for a residential structure at forty six thirteenth street  revise this is a proposed six bedroom residence on the south side of the street on the site where a home was previously demolished probably twel ordinarily the infill review is reviewed administratively we do send out notices to property owners and residents within three hundred feet we received a letter requesting a public hearing so this is for you tonight as a public hearing and for your that you see before you just so the the audience is aware because we have several people come in and look at plans this is slightly revised from the plans that some of you may have  seen if you were in earlier last week or prior to that the plans have been revised the the the building with is now twenty four feet it was twenty eight feet prior to this  the height of the height of the first floor elevation on the building has been dropped to four risers if you look at the surrounding properties in the neighborhood particularly on the side of the street it's in the three four to five riser range so this is consistent with that the overall height of the building then has been dropped a bit as well and i believe the other change that was made is the pitch of the roof has been increased so it's a steeper roof on this this is the site plan shows this at approximately forty five feet in with forty five and a half feet in with the actual site is seventy two feet plus  the the applicant has acquired the property immediately to the west of this property as well and their intention is to remove the the white house that is on that property and then re divide the properties in order to have three homes three new homes constructed in in this in what is currently a two parcel area this is the first of the three this is at the east and of of those three other comments to make one of the other changes that was made to the initial set of plans for the guard to a room in the basement the first set of plants it was submitted showed three bedrooms plus an additional study downstairs in that study was a dedicated room with a closet that has since been changed in a bill or mark if you can put the basement plan up maybe just to show that so there will only be three bedrooms in the basement with the only three rooms so that study area has been removed i think there may have been concern that they could be used by somebody as a bedroom that would be problematic now obviously not the intent to address their concern that their room has been removed and one bathroom has been removed so now you see three bedrooms in the basement with one bathroom and you see kind of a landing at the bottom of the stairs that just shows a culture of just sitting area but that's not a dedicated room i want to change to make note of the only other thing to comment on we did review the city recommendations my client is in agreement with those with one exception and that would be the benzine requirement with the rear yard area maybe market people feel that area as well one of the comments at the city has made their staff it made would be that it may be advisable to put in a shared driveway if there is a home that's put in immediately to the west and if there'd be a shared driveway that would be a little bit of an issue with a fence along the west property line so if that were to occur they'd ask that they're not be the requirement for fencing along the westside they're  the what would be the what west end fencing issue if we could in theory have language in the approval that such fencing would be revisited if and when a joint drive way is approved or something like that so it wouldn't be sort fence cast in stone that it remain there if we later on look at a shared driveway i think you could approach it a couple different ways you could require it in now and they would have the ability to remove it at some point white house for the remaining i guess that's my only concern is that if you know i think everybody understands what is is planned out at this point and if that doesn't come to fruition you know i guess my concern is that we have this area with substantial  traffic for a lot of the size and ultimately we'd rather have a fence there in the accommodation would be because there's planned future development so i think if we can work out a way that that we address that issue i can understand your point though with the with the future plan confusion down the road  perhaps just add a note footnote to that in the discussions with the applicant looking at this as three parcels they thought about being able to share a driveway perhaps even share one driveway among three lives but they've looked at the possibility of trying to reduce that we were at a time frame on when i turn that on time frame on waiting on the fence which you think you might be doing when next know if we were to abate the france for six months you'd be happy happy with that and if you didn't have what you're doing it on in six months we'd put the benson three months it is there anyone living in a vacation home each residence we could we could look at doing that legacy like we mentioned before we are hoping to allow for more green space but we try to space the house out to allow for that thirty five later but our hope is is to start this house i would i would personally be less than that there's about that and i think if you think about that for a while now you've got something that you almost have to sell as a unit of three you know but if you look if you look at the city i mean i don't know what percentage but i mean a large percentage of houses in the city have shared driveways i mean there's a difference between a sure driveway and having space for a driveway i don't know that right well i mean each you know when you look at sheer driveway i mean each house is going to have the same parking in the rear you know i mean it's not like the driveway will be used as parking so i don't understand so i mean we just felt it was a way to leave more green space because there's always concern about drainage and you know no one seems to like how how hires your first floor relative to the house next door you know i don't know i don't i can't answer that question if there was a requirement that made to put it in with plus or minus six inches would be go here with you know i guess i'd have to look at what that would do to the you know my house would look if i had a guess we were discussing earlier john the study session i actually think my house is going to be a little bit lower than the houses next to it would you go with a condition would not be any higher once again i'd want to make sure what that does to miles before i agree to that and if they're just using a unique form of measurement determine that now well you know i think phil hit it on the head when i mean he read off all the different measurements and setbacks and lot sides i mean there is nothing on this block that is consistent with anything but size setback i mean you know style and i understand that that's why mean you know as i look at this i mean to me there's a larger discussion maybe at the neighborhood advisory committee and so forth about you now we're looking here tonight and probably eighteen more rentals for that block that may be a good thing then you're looking at three more metals for that block and i don't know what was there before right so you know i don't know either but i mean i think we're changing maybe not potentially changing and i'm sorry greg but there was a whole committee that met for four or five years it felt like growth of what the hope neighborhood was going to be and this is what came out of it that this is we went from twelve down  and this is what was allowed i don't know are you talking about these are all individual properties so what if i could finish or i was headed with that i'd like the neighborhood advisory committee and i know there's been discussion i just think i feel more comfortable when it doesn't have anything to do with this that this is not what's before us for action tonight i'm just making this comment that i think we have to make a conscious decision about the direction we're going with our blocks and are we increasing in do we want to increase the likelihood of homeownership or do we want to what path we want to go down and you know i just think that conversation needs to be had and musicians made about this would your recommendation be the look at that citywide just within the hope neighborhood i think i would have to rely on that group talk about what areas are most sensitive to this right now as opposed to others or is that details in the in the neighborhood which is so sensitive that you just don't want something sticking out you know and i think yes much like it a lot better than you know what i saw originally but i think you know  i just feel like we're not quite there with the exterior well i think i got to go back to if you stood in this block and look around you i don't know how you can come to a conclusion that there's anything similar on this will they're going to stand out because they're new and i mean it's inherent but i think the craftsman style of this is exactly what is in the spirit of the neighborhood it's been apparently going to stand out i think we need to understand that when we start putting new homes into some of these areas so i appreciate all the work you did on this i think also if you look at that house i don't know who owns the house to the east of us but they've done a wonderful job of remodeling and redo on the outside of the house and you know i think this is just going to continue the flow of that new look and you know i think it's going to be great improvements  shutters would make a big difference this exception is exactly like my house i'm sorry yeah i'm just saying all right in my house is beautiful i would agree  just to understand some technicality that issue was brought up at this point we're approving the in bill we would actually approve the bill and the next step would be would that approve with that approve the site plan for them as well so this is bordello and not the revised plan wondering is there any precedent for changing the date of and i guess i would highly recommend tabling so at least we have a couple of weeks to look but continuing on the continuous stockade fence i know if you look at even commercial property because we'll get to that but when you have three units in a row when we have to change the zoning because it's such a hedges something that would in fact work on the sound and the other issues since we're no longer dealing with seven bedrooms is the setback if you look at the three little houses on the corner there are about thirteen feet back if you look at the house in the center of the block there between twenty four and twenty five i know the code said is twenty five i think we should try to get to them also the we've got the venom  one where it states that the new property will not be further than house on either side i believe there are houses on both sides of this new construction and please take a look at th required setback is between ten and twenty five  other thing that you should consider and i know i've worked with some committees around here where we are encouraging people to build garages in neighborhoods increase the property value we've torn down a two car garage here and we are not replac dramatic change to a neighborhood from residences to party house from a family setting to a student ghetto the history of the the site has been the the kind of thing that has generated some well earned distrust perhaps on both sides we've been living in for a year and a half two years with a monstrous hole with sidewalks set have been crushed with trees that have been cut down illegally with a weed ordinance that has not been enforced in the slide i had a picture of weeds in that hole that are higher than my wife when she's got her hand up and everybody else has to have the lawn mowed to twelve inches there's also a sense in the neighborhood that the city policy is stacked against residents and toward outside landlords absentee landlords we're looking at a loss of privacy a change of lifestyle in the neighborhood and certainly is our property values are going to be diminished while others increase i also want to express gratitude though for phil's efforts to modify these moves also for the change that has shown as shown some flexibility  randy's part and we appreciate it would be my recommendation or request or plead or prayer that you table this motion for a couple of weeks to allow the residents randi fill members of this committee to get together sit down and work out some of the issues some of the big questions let's look at the eager s in these houses the window wells the one house it was going to be cookie cutter it in from further down thirteenth street had window i think look at the facades we don't want three houses built exactly the same looks like a factory town talk a little bit about the impact on the neighborhood  i'm very concerned personally the impact that this will have on my property and this is supposed to be a tree city he's going to kill a monstrous tree if he builds too will cost me thousands of dollars to remove the dead tree that he killed but again let's talk let's have a time to look all the options and we may find better options in some ways what the plan here is a better option for him than the one that he had proposed before so we're going to be cheaper to build and we don't want to find ourselves in a position where we build one and then say well only known we could have done that before let's not kill the options by building piecemeal let's have an idea where my concern is that when we take houses and we do things with alz we don't construct them as rooming house i think this is a rooming house in terms of that and when it's a home i think it is a different character and i would agree that when you put them together closely in this kind of arrangement it gives it a different feel of a neighborhood and i am sensitive when we replaced them we moved all the houses that were on tenth street we did that in a way which did not consolidators squeeze houses in but we left the spaces around them and so i would think that that goes to mr robinson's question i think the last gentleman this fall that's maybe i getting together we can look at some of these things so that we keep a sense of the neighborhood as well as me mr banks my deals would be a good thing to  do i also need to apologize because i think there have been some students that are not behaved well they are works in progress and i continue to work on that and i do appreciate the fact that we do have some other ordinances that we're working on and fifteenth street with the city of holland to see if we can get something people victor i think that there has been real progress made i think this is going to be an important question though because it does set prices and it does set some directions that we're going to need to follow as we work together in this part of the city and perhaps other parts of the city squad encouraged you folks think carefully about giving yourself some time perhaps a little bit more about thank my name is dan rocks and my wife and i own the lot at forty seven east fourteenth street so the the vacant lot that's immediately behind this piece of property and our plan is to build a residence for ourselves on that piece of property and one of the things that has been attractive to us about that area was the balance which is somewhat delicate between residents that own their own homes and live on that property and then student housing as well so to that effect again giving some thought to the three site that the three different crops the three different buildings that are looking to go on that site really wanting that to be well done so that it fits the neighborhood as best as possible again like that gentleman said earlier where there's now three homes that look exactly the same or they give it a dormitory or as was said earlier rooming house kind of feel in a row along that spot so that would be important to us as well one piece that wasn't brought up that i'm not sure how it how it would be implemented but the lighting with the parking lot in the back wanting the lighting to be sensitive to not having a big spotlight or a large light that would end up illuminating our back yard in addition to the parking lot behind this building to the neighborhood from more than three hundred feet away yes ok so the public hearing anybody could come it's yes it's issue so absolutely please then i  i'm probably going to be repeating a few things that i heard already but they were on my list certainly one is almost no time for those people directly involved to have a proper review of what is currently being presented i think it would be wise as has been suggested that we bit i think in terms of what we're discussing tonight being a single residence  beautiful rule beater the thing i don't that i can that concerns me is that it may affect or be affected by the next two proposals and do we at that time get a shot at it one at a time as to make a difference as we add the same likely the same building as to whether we can cover more or backyard with concrete that as to how we landscape the all whole picture i think we need more information about what's coming down the pike there may be fencing issues that we do the parcels stay as separate parcels or is it conceivable that they all the building or the last building is proposed that it become just one site may be all merged into one that changes the whole concept and the lighting to get these planes in place it just doesn't it doesn't make sense i mean from the owners point of view i can see where they were like to see this happen on a piecemeal bas block away or half a block we are trying desperately to change very fragile neighborhood from being a great percentage rental to owner occupation and we've made some real progress on thirteenth street  to the west of central i think we should be double redoubling our efforts in the space center and this is not the way to do it so i guess that's one of the questions about landscaping one minute say i agree with all my neighbors and where the neighborhood thank you kristin gray sixty east thirteen i'm trying very hard not to speak but i guess i feel like i need to kind of address mr robinson's comment about the tenor of the neighborhood some of you if you don't live in our neighborhood might think that a college owned home with college students living it in it is the same as a rental unit with college students living in it and it's good i'm here to see hearing people say it's not and i just want to be sure that you all know that it's not that the college has student workers they're trained and i can go to a house i can knock on the door and ask for the ira if i have an issue that student will be identified to me if we have issues around noise we can call camp s safety we are not asking a public safety officer from the community to come in respond we're talking to campus safety first and not saying public safety never has to respond to a college or own home but we have least have that other line of addressing issues and concerns and i know that again some people think this is the same thing and i just am hoping that you know that it's not and that we are very concerned for our neighborhood and i'm so pleased that the rocks family will be joining us in our neighborhood and i hope that it's a neighborhood that they still want to join thank you thank you from mission yeah i would just reiterate what we just heard i lived next door to three college own houses and there they are very different than runnels the college does a great job to dr frost's credit controlling those houses and what goes on there it's a very different environment and re and if i might since i served on that committee for a few times i'm going to go back to one thing i brought up there we can command hope college hope college is the one creating this market they've made a conscious decision to allow people to live off campus if they want to live off campus then there's a market solution to that and the problem right now is nobody likes the market solution the only one that can make that go away  hope i would love to be able to classify around a lot as a as a commercial enterprise i tried doing it twenty years ago and we don't have a city attorney here anymore i'm planning commission but i'm told that you can't but uses residential i would love to trying to find six unrelated people living together or something other than a family i'm told the city really doesn't have deep enough pockets to try and approach the state of michigan on how they define a family under the constitution  i don't like the amount of paving i don't like having three in her own i don't like any number of things the problem is is that we have a limited amount of authority and i would really like to know  tabling and modifying what the house looks like because we technically can't even touch light plan do we have the ability to say we want a whole presentation on all three right now or do we do that softly because i'm i'm i'm stuck you know randy is doing everything that he has allowed to do under the ordinance that was just changed to try to merely rate a lot of the things that people are talking about  he has played by the rules i don't think he's trying to break rules he's just played by what exists now and we went from twelve to six and we did some things about paving back yards and apparently that's not adequate but those are the rules we've got so i want to know what it is that we're supposed to be doing under the infill where the tabling are modifying the design of the house we have any control over the site plan can we make any demands that he bring in a completed development plan for all three lots at once and i guess as i sort of with brian a little bit on this as i looked at the version that was in the package initially versus what we saw tonight and i was able to find the old one and compare it when the when the facade was up on the on the screen and there's a market difference between what was initially proposed versus versus this with which is on the screen right now i do think that you know i can understand if this is where i live and this is my neighborhood in a relatively short amount of time to review this if any i can understand how that a period of a couple weeks might make some sense but on the other hand i must say that overall you know this is obviously consistent with the ordinance we just passed a bit ago and as i look at the floor plan layout and even the site plan layout hypothetically at some point of hope were to change its ordinances and say it's regulations and say you can no longer live off campus or the market dictates a different change or randy chooses to sell and somebody chooses to buy i think that a house like this is relatively easily convertible  there are no bedrooms in the first floor the only thing that strikes me as being somewhat out of the ordinary as i look at the list that elevation is that the floor plans is the fact you've got mechanicals on the first floor but you've got your bedrooms upstairs  and you've got you know one bath upstairs which you know maybe a little bit different if you're constructing something now but nonetheless not out of the question so three bedrooms up you've got three bedrooms down now you you know if someone were buying it they might knock out an interior wall or two but you probably least keep a couple of those rooms in with with a bathroom down that doesn't strike me as terribly unusual that the exteriors rip up some of the the paving that if you wanted to or use some of the paving to to build a garage if you want  so i guess my point is that as you know for those of us and most of us up here were around when the first round of this happened and clearly what was proposed at that particular point you know was not at all in my opinion in keeping with the neighborhood nor was it even if it was more of a rooming house as opposed to to a residence this i think is much more in the spirit of what the neighborhood looks like and you know so i think it's a pretty good effort maybe could be nibbled on the edges a bit but i do understand that the concern of those who live in the neighborhood that this is sort of being put on them and mr trap for example said that you know on the one hand he was prepared to come up here you didn't exactly say this but i'll paraphrase with a little fire and bri little bit more and offer some additional so i don't think a two week delay is going to put anybody in a terrible bind since this thing has sat now for the you know for over a year so that's kind of where i'm at but again randy and and his people did what the ordinance allows and i think that frankly we have a much better product now and what we did a year ago and  and flip the property back and forth and take the same design i would hope that we might be able to see some concept from you in a soft level to understand what your proposed development there  is but again thank you for trying to work within the constraints of the laws and ordinances but that i will ask for any additional comment we really get our hands tied here when we're developing ordinances or things like that because we're doing things you know party line telephone with the city attorney's office and i would really hope that this is an excellent situation where the city attorney's office could weigh in on some of these things give us some direction as to what we can do and and what is what we're basically left with now as tabling it or two weeks to find out what can we have for a development plan for the other two we i think we can ask and what week they don't need to really get we get asked you know so you know that's what goes back to my well my level of ignorance we have we could have somebody here who wasn't but that's just my   we can ask the city attorney that question two week window but we can also you know frankly before once this is approved that so given the fact that it was relatively recently revealed the provision again which i'd like in substantial measure i don't see how that the neighborhood those who live twenty four seventh's in this neighborhood are being unreasonable by saying give us a little bit more chance to take a look at them because they indicated as well i mean the they like at first glance they like it better than what they saw before two weeks you know what specifically are we going to ask for i mean you've heard my bit you know yeah i'd love to see you know maybe a revised elevation is there some way we can get totally i don't know that we need you know specific direction or here's what i want to look at that i just think that as with many things we provide them to the public for review and  latest version i simply wasn't provided with a lot of time and again nothing illegal about that but just from the standpoint before we give an approval to this for folks who live in the neighborhood and have lived in their hood for a long time given the nature of this whole discussion for more than a year i don't see how it is unreasonable for them to say give us a little bit of time to just look at this and digest it and think about it maybe they'll initiate a conversation with randy or vice versa and at the end of the day you know obviously you know i suspect that some of the neighbors aren't crazy about any sort of development like this happening but they make suggestions that perhaps randy considers that make a better situation out of something they wouldn't prefer in the first instance but i don't know wh direction it's just a matter of given the timing on this i don't think it's unreasonable for the mayor hood to say you know what we'd like a little more chance to review it before you simply approve the thing and then it is what it is a motion on a table and see what happens yes let's do that right i would move we approve with the conditions outlined in the staff report support then i was any further discussion tabled all right thank you with more than we have communications between us we don't have anything to schedule communication from commission members our next meeting is after thanksgiving correct happy holidays and communication with that