next case on the calendar i camry vs commissioner of internal revenue know criminality this is a tax court case with complex issues the uniqueness of this case which involves a seeking of a reversal a denial of a summary judgment motion to have withdrawn a collection activity a notice of or a filing of a federal tax lien by the tax court  uniqueness i think can best be described by a number of errors of culmination and omission by the i r s amazingly a number of them service in the year two thousand and eleven which is probably the most critical one here we did self assess true but we did so before this wonderful super storm superstorm sandy hit which caused six figures in damage to our residence most of which was not paid for by flood in surance never is and so we follow the rules there is a guide that the i r s publishes that's in the in the papers support do you have for a statement that that takes away your regional assessment it doesn't take away it modifies yours if you look at the instructions for the  forty x which is the amended return and that's a page one hundred and sixty three of the appendix and you look at the structure of the actual form itself as we all do when we file one thousand and forty six it clearly indicates a composites the aggregate and it says it says specifically in the instructions that use them as if you were on using a new information to complete your original return so the amended return took into account the self assessment as amended by this casualty loss or so your argument is very fact you have not well the self assessing is not the end all if you can modify it by an amended return otherwise an amended return is meaningless and a disaster guy the i r s puts out the instructions it puts under the amended return ok and they found without giving details that they were going to disallow the casualty loss they said the only way well that's not the rules when that happens they are required to give a notice of deficiency ok coming to your point judge cashman they didn't give a notice of deficiency the three year statute of limitations for assessment on the amended return expired what they did do was they filed a what they called a notice of change of tax they called an assessment but it wasn't an assessment and subsequently probably a year later the i r s council guy was dealing with it the time he agreed it was been ignored and and if the what you said about the amended return doing that may and you said it was reasonable it may well be reasonable but when you're dealing with the tax code most of what happens is not reasonable you threw up the rules are and my question is can you forms promulgated by the i r s that i submit the taxpayers have a right to rely upon and their own disaster guide that i cited says that now that's meaningless then you could never have an amended return that meant anything and and you know they they take that position and it's unfortunate i think because the very people that wrote the regulations not the individuals but the the i r s itself are the ones the problem gate these forms and instructions are you to ignore them or you to say they mean engl say it was improper as a two thousand and eleven and premature as to two thousand and twelve to two thousand and fourteen more immediately that's the ultimate result more immediately are you saying the i r s failed to do that you are looking for to get to that end result to get to that end result judge you've got to look at the various areas that they committed and it's incredible in if you want to hear about them i'll tell you about that you've already in them in you than ask a corner which is constrained by those rules and regulations to act in ways that we perhaps cannot do isn't your real recourse with  going to your legislator trying to get a change in legislation or through the administrative process rather than asking for a court to do this let me let me try to answer it this way judge the i r s when it transmits various documents to taxpayers almost universally includes what's called the taxpayer bill of rights right and the my adversary said it doesn't matter because it was kind of fight after the events here that they say a critical and when i say that is does that mean and i think a court can do you know what this does that mean that all these instances of them sending this publication to the taxpayers for their information and use is meaningless before in instructions and forms even if it's not in the regulations because they send them to the taxpayers for the taxpayers to rely upon them and they should be held to the same standard as they want to hold the taxpayers to thank you the ira's filed the notice of federal tax lien that's the focus of the proceeding here and like to start if i may with just a few words about the scope of this litigation this is a review of a particular administrative process of the can raise collection due process proceeding or d p proceeding once the can reasonably pealed the determination of the i r s to the tax court under the treasury regulations that govern those proceedings they could pursue only issues that they properly raised in the c amended complaint an amended tax return that moves that original filing and does not make national self assessment no they say that's reasonable my question is are very government regulations that makes no difference your honor i don't have a regulation at my fingertips but i do have is a number of cases that we say in so your honor we discuss this starting on page fifty three of our brief but you say that the law is clear and would have been clear to the taxpayer whatever may seem reasonable that the amended return made no difference well your honor as is discussed in some of these cases if it were the case that a taxpayer could file a timely amended return as they can raised it here and tell the i r s that they owed eighty three thousand dollars in income tax for two thousand and eleven and then come in well after the deadline in some cases you can fi amended return up to three years after its due and say no actually we have the tax that we previously told you and that the i r s was required to automatically accept that that would throw the entire system  the fact that in the internal revenue code and section six thousand two hundred and one congress required the i r s to make assessments based on a taxpayer's return and that the internal revenue code in fact never mention amended returns so i think that gives a pretty clear indication of congress's desire that the i r s immediately s s taxes that are reported on an original return now the i r s of course you know has provided for a minute returns as a matter of administration but the internal revenue code itself does not require or address the processing of amended returns but i want to give you another related point are you are you familiar with the   sixty two on a required i'm quoting requires no deficiency letter and that section of subsection a one extends the authorities sassaman of and i'm quoting all taxes determined by the  taxpayer or by the secretary as to which returns are made and this is a case which would be supportive of you are if you are a general argument as to sixty two so i have been curious as to why it hadn't been cited in your brief whether you had some disagreement with it or no your honor maybe what you could do is after argument look at that  affects your argument sure of course i'd be happy to do that after thanksgiving your honor that's very kind of most of it next week if that is an acceptable to the court but i will note that the i r s does indeed have the authority which i think is  the passage they were reading from there to assess all taxes on a return i believe the question the judge was getting at is once the i r s has done that does the family have an amended return or require the s to change that assessment and the answer pretty clearly is no based on a litany of cases that we say in our brief but i'd like to return if i may and this is an important point since responding all this time talking about an amended return deals with it but especially because we're spending all of this time talking about amended returns i want to remind the court that in this c d p proceeding that's on review here that they can reason one issue which is that they didn't receive honor i think that's correct and i i couldn't say why it could be maybe because they have conceded that at least extension fourteen really any time there's a self assessment that it's not a deficiency and here all of the remaining assessments are not deficiencies no notice of deficiency was required to be issued for any of the assessments on the books here they are either south assessed income tax which as we've been discussing is not a deficiency they are penalties for failing to time would be required as we the knowledge there is one deficiency at issue in this entire tax history which is four thousand eight hundred and seventy three dollars that the i r s did not issue a notice of deficiency for recognize  further questions from the court may i ask you to affirm thank you the i r s microphone please i'm sorry the i r s did admit certainly that it erred in not issuing a notice of deficiency on two thousand about the importance of that is in the absence of a notice of deficiency and then their statute of limitations expired for any further assessment on the amended return the importance of that is simply that by not issuing a notice of deficiency the tax payers will left with no remedy to go to tax court because tax court is your own is no has limited jurisdiction and in the absence of a notice of deficiency or notice of determination you can't go there very real loss as i said in six figures and that was not harmless however if they had issued a notice of deficiency we probably wouldn't be here in this context right could quote from one case where was a u s district court that said general principles of equity dictate that the i r s should not be allowed to issue instructions for completing it commentators have said similar things but the commentators of course are not war the other thing i would just like to mention if i might is very  disaster you know a car hit a tree or something this was a federally declared disaster the i r s code of us and a federally declared disaster victim that forty x now that's not in any regulation i suppose but does that mean that's to be ignored totally i don't think so and i think the court has the authority fear your arguments the court will reserve decision thank you