entitled overtime there's no question in this case about that they aren't titled overtime the question in this case as i think is clearly percent in the precinct is really what is the nature of the over time employees which are the dual function firefighter paramedics employed by the los angeles city fire department aren't title to whether they're entitled to over time based upon the platoon system from which they are signed to work like part as firefighters which have to do with the you know they work these platoon shifts and two hundred four hours  here really is determined by if you have to think the environment the difference between the regulations and opinion is that regulations if they're valid regulations are sensually the law so don't you have to take out actually invalidating us regulations to get where you want to go  i don't believe so i think what you have what we're talking about here is now that we know congress has told us what they intended when they when the ninety three congress so but there was it was left for the eight agency to come up with regulations to implement and they came up with regulations not attack the regulations here because in coming to for this court we've had to as we always do and in any case that were taken on appeal eat try to focus on what you believe are the best issues that you can present there are lots of problems having to do with the regulations it is not would not have presented t i guess what i'm trying to say to the court with her argument is is that when congress looks at what has transpired following their own ac to the statute and they see the department has done with regulations and work that has resulted in courts and courts did have come down both sides and have which i think that's why but you know i'm not saying that there was a body of law that says we are right on the regulations there were like three or four different theories that different courts have have addressed those regulations so congress now recognizes that there is a problem as we intended something but that our intention is not has not been implemented by the regulations which is really what regulations do they implement the legislation that has been adopted b recognize and i agree when the department issues the regulations they have the effect of law but what they are it's not at least i hope it's not the administr s sitting in some buildings in washington create law they are implementing what congress has done and i implemented to the best of tried to do it as to what they believe that title of of the legislation in ninety nine that it's to clarify the legislative history cannot be clearer about the intention of the of congress that francisco and that systems opinion the weaver case and that that opinion does express our our views as to they are the prefer the all the sanctions without a difference and that brings me to the heart of what we're talking about the plaintiffs in this case are dual function firefighter paramedics and they think squarely fit in the two zero three y definition as a matter of law they are and it's not speedy trained in fire suppression they have the legal authority to engage in fire suppression and legal authority is it was shown by the testimony in this case for example in chief and also that you to do fire suppression work you have to be certified you have to be first train and then you have to be certified you have to be environment you'd be sightly the city would be cited by the state it's against the law to do it so you have to have authority then you have the question of responsibility to engage in fire suppression and here there is again the record is clear the district court found that the incident commander that's the commander at the fire scene for example has the discretion testified that he has the people order then that they are ordered in for example when there was a tunnel disaster having to do with the and only dual function paramedics who are certified as firefighters to go into that environment and they were ordered in he also indicates that there are companies around the city throughout the city where firefighters tend be changed from one function to the other in the course of the day but most importantly the question is do they have they have the responsibility let me give you this you know why they have the responsibility and why the commanders the people on the scene have to be the ones to make those determinations for example the dual function paramedic firefighters wear yellow helmets the single function hermetics who are not certified has firefight and that's true  say they wear yellow helmets the single function and only one thing how to fire on this record they wear separate helmets and why do they wear that separate helmets so that at the scene when the incident commander and a fire scene is not something that's a totally organized and everybody is is lined up when the incident commander looks around and things are happening he knows what his assets are he can look around and if he sees a yellow helmet he knows if he needs to use that person for throw a ladder or to help somebody who's going to leap off a building or if something else is going on and he needs take a look at the excerpt records pages one twenty three to one twenty four where they're obligated to comply with the orders the the evidence also shows for example and one of the firefighters who testified one of the function he testified to this is well that if the dual function paramedic firefighter is the first person to arrive at the scene in other words maybe because of the location when the call goes out and they get there first that dual function firefighter paramedic incident commander no one can be doing more are in the way of fire suppression work then the commander that's the person in charge of everybody who arrives there no once he's more senior officer arrives he may relinquish the command but i think that shows the responsibility to engage in fire suppression to go back to your question the evidence is that when the fire department expects that these dual function firefighter paramedics if they see an emergency situation a life threatening situation then they also volunteer to do something for the whole truth through a lather and what chief namely said why we expect them to back electronic or writing well that's what what the a pelleas would want to be but that's not what two or three y it's about two or three y it's about who they are they are suppression you have to have the legal authority to engage in it and you have to have the responsibility to engage in it in other words you have your accountable if you give an order to do it and then it says in the last part two zero three why they have to be engaged in the prevention control and extinguishment of fires that's fire suppression not hand your response to emergency situations where like property or the environment is at risk when you look at that and you look at the very beginning of two zero three why when the congress has started to that's a strange result for its result not of whether the firefighter how the firefighter paramedic is cover that single function paramedic who's just a paramedic not trained not certified as a firefighter and what's happening is fire departments all over the country and it's it shows through the legislative history here and all have been moving towards this integrated system were eventually you'll see everybody our dual function paramedics firefighters because it provides the best heart attack victims house and then why is it any different the result is different because for fire suppression the issue for congress addressed in the statute is an issue that the courts were concerned with under the regulations which is when those firefighters on the fire trucks do go to those nonstarter calls and that was one of the issues that the court struggled with under the former labor regulations the question of whether that medical time spent by firefighters responsibilities firefighting when there was a fire why they made not ex if they're given an assignment and they didn't take an action i think i'd ask them why they didn't try to throw a lot of to save somebody's life but i wouldn't discipline on that maybe it's maybe it's unclear i think the testimony of chief name if you compare is really a testimony that a quarter for two on page if they're given in the so i didn't take an action i wouldn't discipline them for you talking about when the paramedic shows up and they're giving him the sign that they wouldn't discipline for now perhaps the record isn't biggest in this to this extent perhaps he's talking about to volunteer to save somebody's life this answer is you would expect them but he wouldn't discipline them if they didn't now how can they have the responsibility to engage in fire suppression if you show up at the scene and there is an action that can be taken to save someone's life the paramedics exam it requires the north to be exempt you have to have the responsibility to engage in farce present and on this record they do not think that they cannot reasonably can   they have the equipment and they won't be disciplined if they don't voluntarily take firefighting action and if you want the discipline again that seems to me is this positive on the phone the issue of whether you have the legal responsibility the sponsibility which means accountability you have to that's your job to do something and you're accountable for you know the testimony is there not accountable for fire suppression when they show up at the scene and there is litigation over whether medical duties performed by firefighters more than twenty percent the time destroys the exemption and some cases held that medical duties that unreasonable burdens are not placed upon fire departments in accounting for hours work and that's shows that what this bill is addressed to was the eighty twenty rule on it and it says that when you are responsible for firefighting when you are working as a firefighter when your job duties are firefighting we're not going to worry about if some of your calls are medical calls and we're not going to count the percentage and we're going to relieve the employers of the burden of determining how much of your time is spent on medical calls and how much is labor i would say is notorious for not properly revising regulations we would say that in so far as two or three why the fines the term that it controls insofar as this that is asked fifteen zero zero seven of every one thousand nine hundred ninety nine there is a short section tucked in amongst other discussion that we believe likewise shows that this bill was addressed and if this quick work to find that an exemption can be obtained by the mere theoretical possibility of medical possibility or rare or unusual possibility that you might you want to do something other than what what we want to hear what counsel was talking about now is a reading of the statute of through three wives that leaves out of the statute the key parts of the statute there's no word fire fire from home including paramedic medical emergency medical technician rescue workers ambulance personnel who is trained in fire suppression the paramedic who is also a dual function firefighter is trained in fire suppression and has the legal authority they have the legal authority has a responsibility to engage in fire suppression as we've talked about the evidence is very clear they have the responsibility the property or the environment is that risk so congress contemplates that you will have these people who are properly trained who are part of the fire department can be used for fire suppression back enough for fire and what congress is now saying those people are exempt they come under two or three right and the reason is to have a service that provides the best care for as to how often but he points out that they can be changed if fact on a daily basis we can detail people around and close companies such as during the holidays where we have to close close resources because of staffing shortages we would assign a dual function firefighter paramedic to any resource in the fire department they need the flexibility on a slightly different point three times during his presentation made the point that they're not required to have emergency protective gear that's not true that's not what the record shows the record shows their turnout gear which is the protective that heavy protective clothing they have to wear when they go into the fire scenes and other things they have to  yes there's a memo that goes out and see this case the memo reminds people that you're supposed to carry that stuff with you all the time he says it's always been a rule it may have been unclear and people weren't doing it because it was difficult to keep them in the right place in the ambulances there was not much room but to make clear and the memo that went out said remember you got take this stuff with you they also have to have with them at all times they're individually molded face plate the face plate is to be used with the breathing apparatus when you mention hazmat that's kind of hazardous to click the you know it could be a fire with chemicals involved and so on but you cannot send a single function people into that they're not authorized to go in they're not certified honor but that has to do with the question having to do under the regulations and that's why we're not fighting about the regulations here because under the regulations there were  questions that really needed factual determination as to the amount of time and what people are doing and whether science well our argument now is that under two or three why these dual function firefighter paramedics as a matter of law are they should meet hate the same overtime way that other have the responsibility to engage she is talking about you can see from where you look at her whole order and i think she's looking at the argument that plaintiff has made that if they were not actually engaged in fire suppression activities then they didn't have the responsibility and what i am are arguing here is that under two or three y there is this idea of responsibility engage in fire suppression but there's also what you're actually engaged in is a different subject that's come from the last part and that's either prevention control extinguishment of fires fire suppression that it's left that i could make an argument to your honor but it's not our case here that under two or three why they would come under think could perhaps come under it i'm not saying but that's not the case here what we're looking at here is the firefighters who are being called on on a regular basis to go into these dangerous circumstances shouldn't they be and then you have the backup firefighters who are perhaps regularly assigned to the duties where they're doing the fire departments that provide can provide all this and that you can move people around not situations where you're going to be paying out huge resources and if you if they can't do it then they have to come up with different ways to