good evening i'm liz allison chair of the town of belmont planning board and i'd like to call the meeting a few say september sixth two thousand and sixteen to order as is our custom i'll begin by introducing my colleagues to my left i have barbara fiasco vice chair the empty chair will shortly be filled following the conclusion of the first item on the agenda by joe lock we have a full and varied agenda this evening just to briefly preview it we had to on our opening item is going to be a discussion of the toll brothers request for the extension of the special permit granted for the construction of cushing village that will be followed by a discussion with glen clancy good evening mr clancy it's very kind to join us regarding the enforcement aspects of the design and site plan and in particular the special permit review this evening will be concentrating on the special permit  review this is part this is part one of eight three part series this fall where we will be looking at enforcement of decisions made under the g r and to some extent the single res zoning with respect to the general residence zoning we are going to be taking a look at the results what did we where did we provide special permits and are we happy with the outcomes and thirdly we're going to be doing a taking a look at the process as this has gone along jeffrey and i have been doing some statistical modeling of our decision process and we're going to take a step back and look at what actually what we think drives our decision process and what from a statistical perspective appears to drive our decision process following that we have continued public hearings which we will take in the following order forty two pine street one thirty two sycamore street will then quickly move through items five six and seven on the agenda and come is anything else that i should note i'd like to begin with item two on the agenda discussed and deliberate on toll brothers for twice for extension of the special permit previously granted for the construction of briefly recap where we were we had met in april we had extended the special permit through the december twenty sixth and subject to we had replaced the rather than long list of conditions and milestones with a much six shorter list of three milestones namely that the applicant complete the purchase  y whatever date was specified in at the purchase of the parking lot by whatever date was specified in the purchase and sale agreement second that within forty five days following th completion of that purchase the applicant pool demo permits and at least one foundation permit and thirdly that he the applicant commence demolition with yeah within thirty days of receiving the permit so that is where we left things in april and so i'd like to ask mr lovett toll brothers to introduce himself briefly and then describe the second requesting an extension to the minister for parking lot purchase and sale agreement the reason for that request was because during our due diligence in the purchase of the property from smith legacy partners we  had some items that came up during due diligence that took us longer than anticipated to work through fortunately we've been able to work through those issues and to a favorable very favorable outcome we are now working with the retail purchase and sale agreement we felt it was wise to to wait until after we had that in order to to make the request of the extension of the special permit through july twenty seventh the twenty seventeen  we move forward in the process and look forward as a closing in getting starting on this exciting project and continuing the process here we will our next steps just by for background will be continue to work with the architect of the construction manager we have to file the ram plan with the in order to memorialize what our program is going to be for the environmental cleanup on the property those things will take some time as we move forward and obviously as we continue our objective is going to be to get in the ground as as quickly but also as methodically as necessary and that's that's the reason for the request of the extension at this point you know we look to to close in september willing gage with the again the construction manager and container engage with the architect able to hit the milestones that were outlined previously  by the chair and and continue through the but again what will facilitate that will be having an extension of the special permit through through the end of july you need that extra time for so i guess starting with you know the extra money needed for the closing where there are environmental reasons for that yes so are when we when we started to diligence period which we started back in use was able you know you start a number of you know going down a number of different paths you're looking  at on this deal in particular obviously environmental was a was an item that we needed to understand completely there's there's a retail component to some existing leases existing actually existing leases  there's construction costs there's architectural vetting etc and you start all those processes almost simultaneously some of those you know take longer than others became very clear to us and probably in say that in order to engage in fully fully engage with the retail tenant perspective tenant we need to have an understanding or clear much clearer understanding of the environmental that was occurring on the site so in order in that process and then there are mental process takes time what a series of tests and testing that we were able to do and when you're doing those tests you do the first test and that term is whether or not you have to do a second test or an additional test or additional wells etc etc so until we get in that was a longer process than than anybody had anticipated fortunately we had a very positive result from those tests but in order to accommodate that time we really didn't get to washington really didn't we didn't get to a comfort level until early august and then that allowed us to engage or reengage with with some of the other occup so i guess they have some follow up questions and i read the cooperstown environmental report that was filed in may so that was that's the smith legacy partners consultant did you have a consultant who is drilling additional wells  test ground water and soil are both right both ground water and soil so the cooperstown report indicates that it's as of may that toll brothers may assume responsibility for implementing future response actions at the site is that indeed the case that is the case so the ram plan that i referred recently referred to we will have that tailored by our environmental consultant who will issue a ram plan remediation i guess from sort of my question was do you anticipate groundwater remediation at this point we expect that when we do the excavation so there's there's soils on the property that has to be a roof when we do the exploration that's going to change it in accordance with the plan right and based on the results of those tests there may or may not be treatment so you expect to do further characterization after the closing that's a requirement correct ok just briefly we on this site you were not just excavating and then it's done you have to make sure you have your volatile organic compounds so i guess my concern is we know that there's contaminated ground water on site we know that there's contaminated soil right i presumed that so i think the proposal is that we'll characterize at least the soil across the area at least maybe for the first site of the excavation and figure out what you need to do with the various piles of soil that then gets treated on site before you take it off site that will be in the ram plan there's there's a number of different components whether it becomes neutralized a reporting of the soil becomes neutralized more if it's going to be hauled off i would say the majority of it is going to be hauled off that's the intention of this point before it's treated for or it won't need to be is the direction so i guess i just wonder as you made the request for the july twenty seventh teen extension whether that is sort of your worst case scenario in terms of the remediation that might need to happen so there mediations not tied necessarily to the request for the special permit extension the the monitoring to the best of my understanding the monitoring is going to be ongoing so you're not you know we're going to excavate let's just assume we're  testing which will be you know you know as we're doing the day watering on the site for construction and then ultimately the day water and that happens around the the foundation of the the parking garage excavation that remediation work the physical removal of the of the soil will will happen within that timeframe but they're not they're not truly related as far as the requests for the the special permit so the environmental considerations aren't the reason why you're asking for the extension to july of twenty seventeen no the environmental considerations were the request for the extension of the purchase and sale agreement of the lot and then you know until we had that and they're not they're not entirely lehner so the extension of the special permit which was through or currently through december to december we will we don't know exactly what's going to happen when we i mean we can anticipate what's going to happen in the remediation of the excavation of the soils but we could it is a environmental cleanup so we could have delays during that time period which could potentially delay the the physical construction of the site but the special permit i want to i want to segregate the two the special permit is memorialized after the foundation has gone in and you know we're working towards you know vertical construction so this is a little bit of a different issue than you know when we you know when we would start for or that piece of this the question i guess i still don't have a comfort level around you know so that you're not going to be back here asking for further extensions in light of environmental issues including let's say you know before you pour the foundation you're going off to figure out what your mit what mitigation systems are need in place is that at all how can we be assured that that's all going to happen or that you're not going to make the decision that when you have a pile of dirt with volatile organic compounds in it that you're not going to make the decision that it would be cheaper to let them sit there and you treat them onsite treat the dirt on site before you haul it off because it's cheaper to dispose of it that way that would further somehow delay the project in that you don't up back here again because obviously there's a lot of people who are can frustrate and by the delays no i appreciate that the it's in our best interest selfishly to excavate and get the project going as quickly and again as judiciously but as quickly as we can so once we you know the site itself was very well classified in the reports that we have i can tell you that you know the there was a grid that was done on the site that determined the amount of soil that was going to need to be exported you know we've got we've got a contractor who has vetted those numbers in those quantities from a timing standpoint i don't forsee us you know just in order to move forward you know i think most of that soil if not all that's what was going to be ex exported off the site as quickly as we can so you sort of built into your financial oh yes and just to restate again you'll be able to meet the commitments for the timetable for the demo permits on the us will be able to make an application for the for the form  end just just to clarify in addition to condition b which is the application there is also condition c which is commenced demolition i have a question from terms of timing now it seems like it's part of the delay is environmental but part of it isn't for mental and i heard in the back the way or the part of this has to do with signing believe retail  number of us were here then i think it was june or july and twenty thirteen was the june twenty third team that we have proof of the special permit for this process and now it's twenty sixteen it's over three years later we approved this extension and it starts construction twenty seventeen eighteen months to two years to get done that's twenty nineteen so what's that from the time we approve this project until it's potentially done that six years it seems like a long time and we understand i understand the difficulties in this what i would like to know though is what would prove clued you from  beginning this but fulfilling the terms of the special permit process by the end of this year i don't but i don't forsee anything that would mean we will make our application and we'll have the you know we should from doing the math in my head quickly and not have the demolition ring commence demolition to satisfy those reforms so you could potentially meet the conditions of the special  it by the end of the year and begin construction ok so what's the fissionable seven months for i'm not sure about the the special permit the state is actually the governing authority on the in the you know starting excavation on the site or point a demolition permit does not necessarily memorialize that that special permit so that's the river so you don't think you could do that by the end of the year you know ok and so you couldn't do that by march there's a weather conditions there's i mean this is a complicated foundation you've got you know your foundation we're going to be through watering you've got a parking garage in the foundation itself so you know we want to be well along the way ok so that also means that if you know it breaking ground on it until the spring or early spring well happen to the municipal parking lot with the town have the use of that in the meantime that is a very good question that i do not have the answer to off the top of my i think that would be a good thing parking that premium in cushing i think square i can tell you that depending on the the timing of everything as this goes the and depending on whether or not starbucks stays open or closes you know we have to mobilize that that building is probably the first building on the  and in in terms of the print not like i think it's useful to lay out the chronology mr leavitt was not present for all of it yet but i'm sure he's familiar with it if this point in time that is quite true but it will i think it is not helpful to leave the impression that mr lapid own six years of it no he doesn't but certainly the citizens of christ i guess i have one final question so it looks like another environmental report is due in november twenty sixth teen and some a so my annual process i noticed that under smith legacy partners leadership there wasn't there hadn't been one filed for about a year before the made before this last one and i'm wondering if we will you have a consultant a different consultant who will be submitting in november so anybody who's interested can take a look at that report and or stand there on file in the belmont library so yes i mean i  i don't know if when we take ownership of the property if that changes any of the time friends but we will certainly make sure we're in compliance with the requirements  geoffrey was there anything you wish to add i'm doing the forty five days and then doing the thirty days would push them right up into december fifth yes so and you know barring holidays and etc it would be a tight timetable so i mean i do think that this may be something that we should give some july seems like a long time to here and i'm not in general opposed to extending the special permit but i don't know if it needs to be extended through the end of july basically august first would take it to the end of june yes i mean six months from now which would be a three month extension would which would take us through the end of march which would be able f now it's complicated but i think that i come out with a carl does i mean i think that and very heartened to hear that told others is picking up the environmental responsibility here i think that that's very important on to see because certainly i mean it looks as though there was some soil excavated behind a dry cleaner site and left in a pile for a long time uncovered which i think is probably not in compliance with  regulations so i'm happy to see how many new responsible party involved and who i think has the financial incentive to ensure  that the site is handled correctly and that it did nothing further delays construction i mean it sounds like you have a tenant to is going to be also be putting some pressure on you to get the environmental situation correct so hopefully that all suggests that we can see this project moving forward and we're not going to see further bumps in the road you know as you go along you know i hope think carefully about the mitigation systems if anything needs to come before us in terms of you know a vapor barrier hopefully i mean with new construction i think we're in a better place than if you if we had contaminated sites that people were trying to design mitigation systems for but i want to caution you that i hope that that happens because they don't want to see i don't think any of us wants to see including the citizens of the town you back here saying we need more time because we didn't plan far enough in advance for our neighbor barrier or how we're going to be water the garage which is going to be built below at least the current water table so you know that's not an easy situation to deal with so you want to impress on you to get all your ducks in a row on that front so that this project can move forward and we can see something other than a hole in the ground in cushing square ship i thank  and i will repeat what i my colleagues have said i'm in agreement with you i would just make two additional points one is to underscore what barbara has just said there there is a point at which we need to say that is it might be not to see development there we need to bite the bullet because for whatever reason this project isn't moving ahead  so that this extension really needs to be sufficient and you know from my own perspective i can't underscore that strongly enough that's particularly case because toll brothers does this so often that the ability and this is i think most of the most of the interested parties in belmont who do construction for a living not on the same scale obviously that you do have looked at the have casually commented that that's a lot this is a long extension  i'm not inclined to second guess it on the grounds that it's a conservative corporate assessment and you have factored in toll has factored in everything that can possibly go wrong is something we all have a great interest in avoiding and which i trust the july twenty seventh extension has been drafted in light of let's grow my other thought about this years since the selectmen approved an extension obviously that extension would be meaningless without some extension of the special permit and this is a philosophic matter but for the most part and i think barbara you were the first at least to articulate it clearly an appointed board should think long and hard before it over rules and elected for their their best be a smoking gun before we do that and i don't see that here in the other comments by jeffrey do we need to close the public hearing oh it's not a public hearing just confirming and in that case i believe it is time to ask for a motion to  accept the applicant's request for an extension through july twenty seventh twenty seventeen so moved is there a second second all those in favor that's an excellent point jeffrey and just to elaborate it on a a little bit and look at the timeline the condition b provides forty five days to  tain the demo permits and foundation permit and then requires commencement within another thirty days of the commencement of demolition  i think we hope you will move that along i'm certain that mr clancy will will work with you to move this along a lot mr clancy can speak for himself he does not require me to do so since he's here in the audience so that we are not in mid december and we received a notice from told brother saying we can't start demolition because of inclement weather  any other time thank you thank you very much mr clancy we now move to i don't three on the agenda discussion glen clancy director of humanity development regarding design and site plan review and special permit process and would you join us good evening everyone good evening mr clancy permit process since there is not much point in writing a long list of special permit conditions if there is no process by which they are inspected and enforced that said there is also a balance the in the course of construction some things happen and some things have to be changed so that the building inspector is by design and not accident not the planning board but the director of community development so maybe glen i could start by asking you just say a little bit about enforcement how you think about it how it works before we dive into the particular question ok you want me to comment specifically on a special permit or just unfortunate in general if you could comment specifically on the question of when the board has for general residence or single residency been issued that paperwork resides in the office of community development and so what we do through the local building inspectors as we make sure that they have a copy of the decisions that have been written and that they use that document as guidance while the planning board and then there's the part b of that the permanent process where they're now looking for the actual building permit and their paperwork and their application is before the staff of community development and so we are essentially an extension of what you guys do the local building inspectors are really the the primary contact in the primary point of enforcement as a first step in that process they're reviewing permit applications they're reviewing plans of the submitted they're checking for compliance and  consistency with the conditions that have been issued by the planning board assuming all of that checks out the building permit is issued and then it becomes an issue of trying to make sure in the fields as the prez the project  actually being built that those conditions are being met during that construction process and so one of the things that we've tried to do in the last year or so is improve the technology that the local building inspectors have at their disposal so they and so in theory when a building inspector is on a job site doing a particular inspection they have access to all of the documents that are related to that permit it could be building plants it could be a plot plan it could be the decision itself all of that stuff is scanned and attached we've had some little bit of a her rocky kind of experience with this process there's been a lot of moving parts from our standpoint we've got we've got building inspectors that have just about finished up a year probably a little bit more than a year on staff and so on as you guys all know because you have to reinforce the zoning by alive is a learning curve for these gentlemen because they come in they have a fairly good knowledge of the building code that's a standard document throughout the state zoning is very specific to communities as you know was a very detail that intricate document and so there's definitely a learning curve for them in that regard the permanent software hasn't always performed the way we wanted to  perform and then frankly there was a specific case i think that you're aware of where the inspectors just procedurally didn't didn't call up the documents when they should have when they were doing an inspection and therefore didn't cross reference the materials they literally had in their fingertips to the conditions that were on the site and so you know we're working through this stuff we are constantly stressing to staff the importance of what their role is in this you know i think we continue to get better at that time i now you know we're talking with jeffrey that one of the disconnects we have in the department is the relationship with the other inspectors that we have in community development the wiring inspector in the plumbing inspector we share both of those positions with watertown ok so they're their offices i was in belmont typically twelve thirty to one thirty in the afternoon and then their afternoons are taken up with inspections in the town they're very good about sharing us with watertown if for example if there's an incident in the morning every quiets them to come out to belmont they will do that we have a great relationship with the town of watertown both of these gentlemen are very good at what they do but you know that industry has its own little quirks when somebody comes to the counter to pull a plumbing permit they fill out a piece of paperwork that paperwork is processed the plumbers the plumbing inspector all the wiring inspector and they don't do a lot of heavy lifting in the office their world is on the job site so once again we use our example the up a plumbing permit can get pulled for a bathroom in a location that you guys may have specifically said no bathroom goes here the plumbing inspector wouldn't necessarily know that because they're not looking at plants they're not looking out from that point of view they are going out in the field and looking to see whether or not the plumbing work that the permit applies to is being done per code so that's another one of our  sort of procedural things that we need to get better at as the planning boy gets more and more specific of all conditions that are getting attached to these permits that type of restriction i guess has never been something that we've dealt with in the department and it's never been even to act was on board special permit for example there's never been a special permit that has said that i that i'm aware of anyway you can't put a bathroom in this location so it's new to us and so we need to rely is this the reliance on the old school and trying to get into the new school because from a software perspective flagging you know software to say that this is a special permit with the red masthead or whatever and then having everything to be so identified right is rather stay straightforward but is it is there merging of two worlds is a point and you know it really is as of right now the permanent software does not give us the ability to do that and so one of our challenges is that we have to find a way to not only flag these projects when they come to the office for permanent for construction one of the things that jeffrey and i have talked about a lot is what happens three years what happens in five years this is there's a special you know there's a special permit on file that specifically says you cannot develop your attic space well when then when the new owner who purchased the property a month ago comes to the office and says know what left to put a bedroom up there how are we in community development going to know enough that that property should have a red flag on it that prompts us to say you know what we're really sorry but someone missed something in the in the the process of the registry of deeds and you can't do that and so we don't right now have a very good system to do that other than a really a manual one where we can we keep a list maybe we have some kind of a way to flag physical files  it's one of the things that we want to talk to the developer of the permuting software about to see whether or not there is a way for us to flag the actual record on the computer so that when somebody goes to enter that permit application then some of them thing will pop up and say you know subject to past planning board action see files some kind of a note like that we're not at that point right yet right now and so it will be it will very much be a manual process for us jeanne i'm seems like shouldn't be a very big step with our writing in the language of the restriction to simply put a collar overlay over a section of the plan it tells the building inspector there's something here that i'm going to look at right no i think that's that's true but i think what rafi was saying that even further was all that where i kind of went off on my own i guess maybe there's a better way to put it is where is the check in the system after the fact so you so you're right you're right we could have something col where it where it may be on the plans there's something obvious that jumps out at the inspector while that project is under construction but when the owner of that property comes back in five years where does the flag put it presents itself at that point it really would have to be some kind of it something related to the actual address because every permit application enters into the database with a brand new permit record the only commonality is the address itself and technologically logically speaking i'm not sure how we go about doing description for a staff plan a position and that one of the roles we see for that staff planner is to be actively involved in these cases how these cases move through the department so that person would would be was responsible for into the plumbing inspector and the of wiring the specter if it's applicable to say hey listen there's a special case here you need to know that you know these are things that you need to be aware of if you need me to back you up on this call me and i'll do the inspection with you but there has to be someone who is charged with staying on top of this it could simply be a spreadsheet in an excel that just lists these these addresses with the fact that there's a special permit i don't know how we're going to do that but once we flag it has to be a person in the office that's focused on connecting the dots right now as we're currently staffed and certainly this gentleman here you can't do it i mean this guy is just so burie yes yeah well yeah i don't need to tell you that right so and so and so you know with the with the with the with the filling of the staff plan a position you know we will begin to take some of the things off of jeffrey's plate and we will begin you know sort of flesh out this this inforce been stuff that we know that we need to get better on top of right now where we're really treading water i mean that's that's the truth i have no interesting conversation i mean just in your position completely it's very hard to do it to you to do what you're doing to keep it to keep track of what's going on because i know how busy the office is from personal experience here to commune development but  i guess if you could ever get some software that would do that but one of the comments you made though how would someone know so my understanding of the zoning unless we specifically say long as it meets code ok so let's talk about that yet ok because from from our perspective when you've got a special permit that's been issued to a specific conditions and if those conditions specifically reference a set of plans and those plans say that the put on ok so once again our expectation is that this is being filed at the registry and anyone who purchases the property anyone who buys it on a resale will see this document and this document will clearly state that hey you know what with our hopes of putting a bedroom upstairs you know this is saying we can't do that at least enough of a flag that they come up to us and say hey what's the story here i don't is that enough i don't know i  really obviously this is also knew that we don't have experience we don't know what three to five years down the road looks like it because we're not there i guess i would hope that by filing this in the registry and having that sort of reference document would be enough i don't know but joe ok with that there's a bunch of stuff with me which given the importance we put on totally having area size and density it would be surprising if it needs to work the way cleansed just described otherwise the conditions we're putting on density and size would happen to me right although i think based on what i have heard in terms of logistics from glenn it does feel like we're we've gone back and forth and we'll probably get more into this position more like how many conditions what and what should the standard conditions be and the special permit and it certainly seems like almost out of fairness to the owner and and future owners i mean it's easier for me buying a house to see as you would this special permit that is recorded with the deed and see that it's clear that i can develop the attic space rather than going to look at the plans that are on file run in the office of community development or wherever so as a matter of sort of putting everybody on notice i'm suddenly thinking that it's it is like hopefully it would be easier on inspectors when you when you figure out a system might be easier you know and there's a list of like six or eight or ten conditions that's at least pretty clear and easy to read as compared to looking at you know a lot of you know pages and pages of plans that m have enough intimate knowledge of projects to at least know enough to when they pull up in front of a job site to say you know what there's something special about this one i don't think that that part of his unmanageable and so if at that point they go to their tablets and they stop plowing through plants maybe they don't feel comfortable doing it on the tab but they can come back to me the first step in this process is a recognition that something going on at this address that i need to be on top of that's me that's the first step and i don't see that it should not be a problem given the size of the town given the fact that we have to inspectors you know that cover the town can i can i state a pet peeve yes think was the date on there for i recall so we're talking fifteen plus years and i'm still getting complaints from an about a robot of a shrub that keeps dying on that property and so really i've worked for the town for a long time n p r for the most part i've enjoyed my stay here when i when i think about the fact that whatever time i have left here i'm still going to be dealing with this dead tree at c v s so i say to myself ok there's got to be a better way here you know so i just grabbed this one as an example this is a special permit guys did recently for nine westland and did similar wording in here about basically what it says is you own the landscaping in perpetuity it's not really the expectation here you know so it's a let me play this out now because joe this gets a little bit to your point about how because strange it we are but what the words say in here not only do i read this to say that they own the landscaping in perpetuity but they actually own the actual species of what was chosen to be planted in dying and they decided you know what i want to replace it with something like this a strict reading of this document says they have to come back to you guys to get approval for them to change the species of that planting in is ok and so that's that's what i need to hear you know so is that is that really what the intent is yes and i think i want to give jeffrey and rafi a chance to comment on that jeffrey  the example you gave raises an interesting point because under topic a we have major versus minor when do people need when do you need to fled these things when you need to come back there actually may be a a third category that isn't captured so by major we certainly mean the number of full baths dreidels the potential for density so somebody's putting in a full bath that hasn't been part of a special permit does that need to come back to the board before inspectors approve it i think my answer you bet assume that that that clearly we have three or four at the by laws clearly outline three or four major criteria density is one so something like a full bath that clearly can impact density got a compact with the board the miner is i want to change an interior that just changes the function of the room it doesn't change density doesn't need to come back to the board but the the shrubby example raises a third category where function out function not to species so yes in perpetuity you're required to screen your h v ac system from your neighbors you aren't required necessarily to refuse if you done he's well but i think there's an advantage to having the owner come back and say my c v s tree isn't working because maybe the board needs to be updated and change what they're specifying and so to leave it to the owners say well you know i'm going to i'm going to replace this with norway maples in front of my or conditioner we don't want to add to how little we had said this would be this is an ongoing discussion and this is this is the first that means we'll discuss it i can think of the uplands project the comprehensive permit for the belmont uplands development you know that was a pretty heavy duty project that was one that had very specific language about the director of community development all the inspector of buildings having the certain discretion i'm sure there have been other times i've been asked to comment on certain things but that one always jumps out at me because just of the multifaceted challenges that want to live with any decision made on that project so you know the scratch test i always used was is the change that's being asked you know increasing the intensity or somehow increasing what was permitted and approved or is it something that is actually reducing the impact that was always my starting point you know a lot of times that that may not have been sort of an applicable way to sort it out but that was sort of the first kind of scratch test that i had in my mind and so when i think about the projects that you guys are permeating  you know i just kind of jotted down here any alterations to specific conditions that will increase the impact ok in my examples are a larger footprint taller building additional amenities changes back to me that kind of stuff any of that should be referred back to you guys because that's an obvious deviation from that well not necessarily right i mean because you guys can once again i mean on this special permit you've got twenty two hundred eighty one square feet if you will get into the splitting of hairs here in a moment but so that's kind of how we look at something major how i define the minor was something decreases impact let's say that you you gave a special permit for somebody to build a house and it was a certain size footprint that was going to yield twenty two hundred eighty one square feet that's what showed on the plans let's just say i don't know let's say there was a slight condition they encountered and they decided to put a job in that foundation they only ended up with twenty two hundred square feet they lost eighty square feet somewhere to me that is that is a decrease in the impact of what you guys were evaluating so on the surface of that i would say you know what that's something that i should be able to say ok but here's where i get a little bit nervous now the special permit is very specific to a set of drawings that shows twenty two hundred eighty one square feet dimensional on one side of thirty six feet the as built drawing as prepared by the surveyor has that at thirty six point three feet ok point three right that's four inches little less than four get the stuff around that's great but but here's the follow up question that you should ask yourself if the answer is they need to come back what are you going to do when they come back see one of the challenges with that the process in the new zoning and the way that you guys go about your business is a lot of the stuff feels very hard and very firm and so even if somebody was to do something that was less impactful than what was permitted it still seems like this thing is so rigid that they still need to come back and have you guys say thank you for making it smaller but you still believe it's a comeback i requirements set back height of building based on an average grade calculation a lot of what you guys permit has to do with what's happening inside that building and so is it your expectation or your desire to have an as build from an architect or a builder to reflect what was actually built inside that structure i don't know i think that once again the the westland road special permit it says very clearly and has built a plan is required but given what you guys are looking at when you're evaluating these projects i'm not sure what you had in mind when you said you want to as bill you yes i mean i have many questions get those one question i do want to ask one and reiterate appreciate coming out i think this is going to be a great way for us to get tighter so that says great you have it what we endeavor to do with g r in s r c will be able to have some play in helping here impact the density do you have enough resources to be hable to because what we discussed last as we were doing s r say that there was going to be an increase of a certain number of properties that if they broke the threshold of the thirty percent there was going to be x number of additional special permit requests i mean do you have the resources to do it because i mean to burden the department and to try to hold you accountable to enforcement our standards and all that you don't have the people to do it it's folly for us to know that i appreciate you asking that x like i said this point in time i do i do believe that with  with the hiring of the new staff planner position i think will have the bodies necessary like i do think that we have to follow that up with a very clear procedures very clear responsibilities and how they do need to amongst the personnel  department but as i sit here right now kind of looking ahead i feel pretty good that we have what will need i don't know when we're fully staffed talk to me in six months and i hope i'll let you know how we're holding our own  in terms of what we've been doing you've given us much to reflect on great just let me know when you'd like me to come back again and we can continue this and good for a while and part of making it a larger community discussion it is always useful to have another perspective on one's own work particularly when it's  a right we don't like to move him for on the agenda which are continued public hearings and as mentioned earlier we'll begin with forty two pine street and then move to one thirty two sycamore street cell forty two pine street it is a continued hearing so there is no need to read in notice and when we last had a discussion of forty two sunny it was agreed that any working group would sit with the applicants and architect and work through a set of r which are the plans included in our package so  briefly describe what the conclusions of the working group and the applicant are and then i will ask the applicant and or architect to make a brief presentation so  any member of the working group i was not a member of the working group so we have had i thought a pretty productive meeting with the applicant and the architect and we talked about ranch second floor colonial in those drawings and and joe and i sort of impressed upon them that we felt that since they were redoing all of the siding that it made sense for the current overall continuity of the house transforming into more of a colonial look to make sure that there were windows that were consistent items that we changed we also updated the planting plan to reflect on the plants in front of there's a there's an area of the lower portion of the house with the staircases located that there's no window there so there's a there was a feeling that the balance could be you look at the left left out of the house right now the left elevation you're going up a story see it get a chance to get what would be a continuous hip roof to go right across the front of the house to have a hip roof house  gable there that's a new gable although you drew the original gable on the first dose maybe we were clear with you we would talking about a gable i knew that you had a gable above the garage which you then changed right to get the house to look more colonial this looks very similar to what you already did well when we met abel know one of the things that you had said in response to the good one was you had talked about putting a freeze on it which is something we didn't opt to do but to my recollection and you have there i don't think we've talked about getting rid of that ga so that to me i just see an opportunity that if this was all hip to all across and you could stick a phrase but on the front part of the hip you could have an overhang you could do a lot of things to this if you did h  that's what i say i'm only one member i mean whatever you guys want to take a look at but i was i just thought you had an opportunity to have a very clean hip roof colonial on the site and i thought that's what we discussed i know what you came in with but i think when you came in with and we didn't particularly care for and we said why don't you hit the roof so that's not my recollection from the meeting as you could as you stated we did talk about increasing the pitch because that would help that gable with the angle rather than the lower gable that was on the first one when when you do a hip hip is going to be low pitched anyway so i mean i gave you the eight to get to get you really and truly more space and give us a better looking roof from the front of the house but i apologize for the misunderstanding this kind of isn't what i envisioned pre colonial looking like but it's just the whole bump out looking back at the size of the house they were posing compared to neighboring properties i mean we're not proposing anything that's really onerous for not proposing to increase the footprint of all we're still below the size of the neighboring properties they're just trying to capture the space to make the bedroom the bedroom the front of the house and the master bedroom what they want it to be and i don't you know i think in general one of the things i you know i talked to jeffrey recently about what we're trying to achieve here and what we're hoping to do is improve the property make it a better place than what it is right now and i think with the plans that were presented the elevations that we're presenting it's um it's much improved as to what's currently sitting on the site as to whether or not the design to go one way or another is kind of a matter of opinion in my mind and i would hope that you know that our lives of these drawings enable it have a contractor waiting i know that they are trying to do with the boards out there willing to spend thousands and thousands of extra dollars to replace windows that they want to keep and deal with deciding that most of them but doesn't even have so i ask that you take that into consideration today is it really going to use their contractor it's here here or there but i don't think whether it's my cable or i have as a huge effect on the look of the properties you know it's a matter of opinion really feel like it's a matter of opinion right but you also get a one foot yard on that so i'll tell you that if you are going to put a job on the house it should be at least two so that you can see some type of definition because it almost looks like a flat faced house anyway with a foot and if you look at your elevation you look at your here for bread you can see it i mean i bought  of i think if you did had the freeze in the front i think you could at least like detail the gable to make it look a little bit more colonial ask rather than just drawing the gable up without the phrase so i mean  and you would be satisfied what i was trying to do what we're trying i'm trying to do obviously is to get down to a small number of can get to a number of conditions and is it just to be clear is this an alternative to like an across the hip graph we want to look after and they have to they have proof that i think if they did this little didio could actually address the front of house up and make it look more colonial in nature than was just to get the diameter that you're showing on the side plan the box would needs to be three or four feet not two to three and that's even more true for the  to everything else that's being spent here that's a relatively modest increase how much would you say when you can't when they won't be that big if there are only two to three feet an initially no but they will grow to be that big what but what the building inspector looks at is how big is the tree that going in today and that's what we can specify we can't specify how big it will be in five years or twelve years we need to specify what's going in today i just i just don't think i get my point and just i don't want to compromise i think asking for aid for trees can look around the neighborhood you'll see you'll see twelve to fifteen foot are by me and that's that's being modest yeah right right that's a trimmed tree  in front of the windows to make sense on either side of the living room window i don't think it makes sense for you where you showing it in the middle of the house well if you look at the  asian there's a there's a missing we know there was one of the product during our our meeting just kind of a blank wall that's what because that's where the staircase is located in the house so by choosing our you actually have them in the right place i think that the size is just wrong really if you put them on the corner of the tree corner of the house wait where this where they're specified it's actually going to look really nice and for the house i mean how i would go like did not comply if it was not screened all the things it would have to do with it would it would have to do now ok i mean we would this can't be if we need to think about that in terms of writing the conditions because certainly any future any future buyer is extremely likely to want to put in an a you done with my name is jim diamond i'm an a but i live couple houses away and i've been living in at that address for close to forty six years and i've seen a lot of changes take place and if every planning board applied their own standards to the neighborhood which they already have for that matter i mean this is not the same planning board that  saw the construction of a piece of property at i think it's twenty three pine street which is a lodge two family with ray's dormers which has air conditioning systems both in the back and on the side a double wide driveway that was added to take out grass removal of trees and shrubbery all around the house if you got into that level of detail and projecting out to the future i don't know what that property would look like the whole street there isn't a single house on that street that i can think of it's a classic colonial everyone was built at a different period of time you know and be perfectly honest with you i don't think a class a colonial fits into the general decor of that entire neighborhood also have porches at some point which breaks up the vertical appearance of the houses i think you're getting into too much detail with regard to this home it's sitting on the same foundation  sat on before neighbors have landscaping by the way and that landscaping changes depending upon the weather and the storms that come through and landscaping the way you're describing it  requires a lot of expense in terms of maintenance and right now it can be a very expensive proposition just to put in what you're proposing i understand the idea of projecting out to what the landscaping might look like it's some years down when it's fully mature but it could go either way so i don't know why you're getting into a lot of detail about the height of those trees in any case  think these people are doing a service to the neighborhood in renovating that piece of property and i think the plans that they have will fit in very nicely and i'm not at all concerned as an about are considering all other things that have taken place in past years and i fully support that they're planning on doing so be a little lean in your details that you're getting into i think you're going overboard thank you very much if i could respond to just to the landscaping portion of your comments the reason why the town has the opportunity to look at landscaping is because a special permit is required some of the houses that you described did not need a special permit and even though the town would like to see a greater level of landscape for new construction or as this is  essentially new construction when it's done it's going to look completely different than it was and it will be a big improvement but because it needs a special permit we're saying that in the total cost of the project doing a reasonably careful job of landscaping is important to the neighbors and that's why we're doing it i don't think this is at all excessive what we're asking for in terms of landscaping that i'm sorry if you please i'll take one more comment that you must come to the microphone and then i'd like to wrap it up on where we are and get the conditions the initial cost is just one of the costs associated with putting in landscaping the maintenance of landscaping in the fashion which you expected to be maintained namely according to the drawings it is a very very expensive thing to do considering the water bans in the metropolitan district commission area i think keeping new plants of that size alive and thriving  going to be a very difficult thing to do i'm having trouble on my own property keeping my trees alive so i think as i'm saying to you everything has to be considered in a practical point of view these people it's not a business they're putting in there it's a residence and they have to live there and they have to put up with all the issues that all of our neighbors have to do with with the landscaping in the neighborhood thank you and i think i'd like to be kind to discuss where we are and whether we whether we believe that we can come a set of conditions such that we might vote on special permits i think we can and we're certainly not just i just have to respond we're not trying to put back a colonial the batches every house in that neighborhood or the victorians that are on oak street we're just trying to put it a house in since they're going through the expense of constructing a house that actually looks like it might accent the neighborhood or be a part of the neighborhood rather than putting something in it looks like it doesn't belong to begin with so we're not looking for a house to match something that was built in one nine hundred twenty we're looking for something to complement something that was built in one nine hundred twenty so that being said with the changes we discussed if you can if you can get to the freeze boards that we talked about in the gables you can do five in the window if i put my six on the corner so that one looks a little bit bigger than the other right now i mean if we're going to go through it liz we're going to go with getting angry i don't want the window casing to match the size of the going to blow it up just it's you understand exactly what i'm going with it anything else you know i mean i think at the end of the day i mean i mean i'm going back to what i was thinking about with clients this exercise is an effort to kind of get to a place where the borders as brought out of the project absolutely but while it's less maybe the board i mean i think it's the collective process it's the it's the subject matter experts that understand their little roles in terms of  board but collectively i think that that's where i see this it's bringing value to the property owner into the neighborhood well planned and with that are we jeffrey are you save you enough money to pay for the trees he's good  and now on the more substantive matter of the special permit man have a motion favor and as a request not a condition of the special permit as soon as jeffrey has the special permit written up it would be very helpful if he were to review carefully and quickly so there was no absolutely no possibility of misunderstanding absolutely actually we would request i know that jeffrey's a very busy individual these days i know he writes up the reports and he has ninety days je all right moving like right along i'd like to move to one thirty two this is this is a case where we asked for additional plans and more details on the current coverage and  i just before we moved to a general discussion this is a question for other members of the board perhaps for jeffrey  detailed landscape plan with the numbers presented in the zoning compliance checklist in particular with respect to open space this is a lot of there's a forty percent open space coverage or more has to be open space and i'm looking at this and keeping in mind that we at that the paid lot driveways do not count as open space i have trouble seeing how we get to  have people seeing how we get to fifty eight percent open space me in the sense that the biggest single piece of open space is the is the  that since the lot is fifty feet wide we're talking about a space that is twenty three feet long and i'm sorry twenty three feet wide and about forty forty long and so we get to around nine hundred square feet and that's the biggest pay that's the biggest piece by far  space and with a forty two hundred square foot lot you would have to be at around seven hundred square feet of open space and i just don't see how you get there i also have it's seems somewhat unlikely in rome there's a lack of dimension there's still some lack of dimension but my my major question is does this comply with open space and i don't know i don't see how it does and i i think it's unhelpful we need to rely on the numbers in the zone in compliance checklist and i don't see how they i don't see how you get to fifty eight percent open space here so basically the last time you guys  my point was a somewhat different one in looking at the landscape plan that you provided i was able for the first time to do that is important for a number of reasons one is that we do expect the information on the zoning compliance checklist to be accurate and the second is to the extent that  built structures are being considered the fact that it's currently not it may not be in compliance with the open space from firemen's would impact our willingness to see any plan shows for example shows that this landscaping plan shows the parking lot goes all the way to their property line which was well the surveyor says it doesn't and that's a stamp plan so that's what we have to go by in reality something else so i think that that's a very confusing collapse and i think he being an engineer there's a bunch of different ways to look at that  to a discussion of the architectural changes is that and see if we have consensus and  perspective if you clean it up pretty pretty good my only comment would be using pressure treated wood everywhere so i imagine you're just going to frame with that and then you're going to cover the pressure treated wood with either razik or because it doesn't whether well it tends to wa and check you know what that means nothing to doing you doing pressure treated it looks like you're doing pressure treated framing everywhere yeah the frame the deck itself would deck is all pressure treated yeah yeah pressure change evening or awfully to continue this to our next meeting and review with them and be certain that we're correct in the open space it's just money coming into back and list lee but i think we need more clarity than we're going to come to in the next five minutes to vote a special permit this evening so i'd like to ask for our we're meeting again on the twenty first we've moved from a tuesday  plans no more additional expense necessarily any jeffrey i mean joe you know i'm just yeah i think we need to pull this together in a more organized fashion before we vote if you in light of the hour i'd also like to propose that we continue with chandler  is similar three story in a two story duck just of this evening and then there's a potential of a substantial addition that would kind of come under the new s r c zoning that was greeted with a degree of but in light of the fact that every project in appears to involve a playground or a recreational facility they were really felt the colonel's appearance was the most time if everyone could just take a moment and review these