definition of conviction varies depending on the contacts and that situation requires the court to look to congressional intent and to the end a little framework established in united states versus child in the united states versus  intended to abrogate dickerson's application of the uniform federal definition of fiction and to defer to the state's determination of what would result in a conviction for purposes of the federal firearms look at north carolina law here to determine whether to the states determination of what will constitute a conviction for purposes of nine hundred and twenty two g so here north carolina has a very specific definition of conviction in its  question that sort of in my at least tries to help me frame we think about diversity cases right we're trying to apply the law state there are other context we're trying to follow all the state here i'm trying to understand what question i'm supposed to be is the question what would i anticipate that the supreme court of north carolina would decide if called upon to answer the question of whether this  is a conviction for purposes of federal law i mean is that hypothetical am i trying to answer that question or am i trying to answer a different question i'm irish understand how i'm supposed to think about i think that is the question but the only way that you can answer that question is by looking to north carolina's specific definition of conviction in their federal so in their firearms ban that answer to the question court because you know we're going to go all the way back right judicial branches the province saying what the law is so the north carolina supreme court i'm looking through their eyes and i'm asking the question if i was faced clues to that answer those clues include the statutes that we've talked about and they include the decisions that you and talk about what we make of those is a different question but i'm going to say is that the right thinking about that the right said the right framework i think you are looking at it in the right way in terms of the supreme court gets the final say of what north carolina statute but what i also want to say to you judgments is that the common law definition of what constitutes a conviction does not necessarily hide here because north carolina also the legislature has also defined the conviction differently in different contexts so i guess what you're saying is that this case is put to the north carolina supreme court which is never going to be how does the state define conviction for purposes of its own its own firearms th we don't look at well not exactly because so watchers it is a little bit different the court was faced with a different problem there because the project firearms and didn't have a definition of conviction and so that required the court to look at a broader spectrum of what constitutes a conviction for purposes of juvenile adjudications because they didn't have a specific conviction definition applicable to the firearms and i virginia so what the government was arguing for there was in fact the the state firearms ban did apply to two juvenile adjudications and the government was saying because the firearms ban applies to juvenile adjudication it should apply here and this court said no that's not the question the question is what's the definition of conviction so so this is a different situation here where north carolina actually has established a definition of conviction that is applicable to firearms but i do think i so i think that the child back in alice this is the most direct way to decide the question but i do think if the court looks at the three step watchers analysis that you reach the same result because the st step under walters is to look at the state statute governing conditional discharge to decide whether convict conditional discharge and conviction or acquittal and concepts and they're and they're not here because the conditional discharge statute specifically provides for placing a person on probation without entering a judgment of guilt and gives the court the power to later dismissed the charges can you not only talk about that from work but i want to go supreme court's decision in the rule of evidence case but there are couple possible ways of talking about that but i want to get your view why is it we ought to think about is not being a pretty powerful clue someone from getting a handgun permit which is a different statute and that handgun permit statute doesn't include a definition of conviction when the core in that case talked about the felon in the north carolina felon in possession statute and acknowledge that that statu requires judgment so basically what north carolina so one answer is friend is a different context because the permeating statute and so the north the supreme court would and what north carolina to do and you refer to that evidence case to is when the the term conviction is used in a statute without a definition that common law rule about guilty plea but that's not what we have here in the context of the possession definition of conviction because we have a special definition under north carolina law that applies to that particular situation what about the distinction between infringe on and that was a judgment continued i think it was i don't think it was a prayer for judgment continue i thought it was the world but i could be i do think that a conditional discharge under north carolina law in it s ability to permit the court to order probation while it and accept a guilty plea while at the same time not imposing judgment and i would like to go back to that definition because we haven't talked about the  fact that the conditional discharge is not a conviction under there's a prayer for judgment it's a prayer for judge so so that's a look that's different if there's conditions attached i'm not sure that's clear in print but there's conditions attached because if there without with or without conditions but i want to be clear that conditional discharge is not it is not a conviction under north carolina's felon in possession law because it isn't the final judgment it's not a judgment at all the government disputes that while the general statutory rule is that judgments and one sentence is pronounced that general definition doesn't apply here because the condition conditional discharge statute is more specific on that point and under both the statute and under  traditional rules of statutory conduct construction that more specific definition prevails over a general one and nd of all the term final judgment used and that statute has longstanding legal significance it's one that determines the entire controversy between the parties and a conditional discharge is not a final judgment because it does leave issues to be decided in the trial court because at a later date the court will either enter an adjudication of guilt were dismissed the proceedings going back to the watchers three stop analysis that st the st step under walters is to evaluate the state statute governing conditional discharge determining whether conditional discharge and conviction or con concepts in the briefs i tried to explain to compare that to the prayer for judgment continued and deferred prosecution procedures that were previously in place before that statute was an act and under either one of those conditions of the court imposes conditions after a guilty plea the defendant winds up with a final judgment making those procedures a conviction under every north carolina definition of conviction by contrast here a person who pleads guilty under the conditional discharge procedure faces qualitatively different consequences than someone who pleads guilty outside the procedure and has conditions imposed because there is no judgment the state court still has power to dismiss the charges against him and he's also not convicted under felon in possession law and under another north carolina statute so that is a qualitatively different result so stuff one of the watchers analysis indicates that a conditional discharge is not a conviction under north carolina law for all purposes the nd step under walters is to again to look at the state's felon in possession statute to see whether it defines a conviction to include a conditional discharge and as i've just explain doesn't the rd step is consider other state statutes imposing collateral consequences to determine whether state law treats guilty pleas and convictions as anonymous and the north carolina statutes are very similar to  statutes or look at it they tend to distinguish between guilty pleas and convictions even when they impose collateral consequences and even when they define a conviction to include a guilty plea and under that rule that the court should apply the definition of conviction that's most favorable to which is the definition from the found in possession statute thank you very much care makes abundantly clear that the goal of one hundred and twenty two g one in the way it operates is not to provide a sentence in hansen for conduct already made criminal by the state it's designed to attach to the judgment that people should say are subject to a firearms disobey by virtue of a conviction and then apply the uniform federal ban on hand and that requires looking at the ordinary definition of conviction because it's the ordinary definition of conviction that is a guilty plea that imposes a weapons restrict you can't carry a concealed weapon but we would as we talked with your colleague about we're trying to certainly your honor i think the statute the definition of terms of what constitutes a conviction of such a crime shall be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction which sittings were held so i think the appropriate certified question would be what constitutes a conviction of a crime and i think the answer would be because the court has had that in various contexts a conviction includes a guilty now if the court came back and said well it depends on the context  this is what a conviction means well that's in a sentencing statute and you know your own by definition that has to refer to something before sentencing because it's talking about when to senate someone so for that purpose that's what it means right but then you look at fourteen for fifteen point one or whatever it is the they are equivalent on set and it says something different right i mean it reverses not just a guilty plea but the final judgment which seems totally reasonable right the word conviction can have different meanings in different contexts and so i don't understand why and why don't look at those two statutes standing alone and say ok north carolina applies a different definition in two different thirty one b and fourteen or fifteen whatever those numbers are certainly you know there are at least two yes and so we've got to decide and what i'm trying to understand is help me understand what are my why do i pick one or the  you're saying i should choose one thousand three hundred and thirty one b and i think your st argument is that because that's what the north carolina courts tend to do but is there any other reason why that definition your mind is a more wine then the fourteen for one yes your honor and i apologize if it continues circular but the supreme court made clear to the definition the extent to which the federal ban on firearms applies is broader than the state's determination of who should be criminally punished for firearms the supreme court made clear that the firearms the federal weapons ban is triggered by of north carolina says in in or team for fifteen point one they say are banned only apply if you receive a sentence of five years or longer i don't know whatever make up a restriction we would apply that restriction i but it's different where nine hundred and twenty one a twenty tells us on this narrow question of what is a conviction go to the state law and find karen is saying you know we're not deferring to the state as a general matter but a twenty tells us not just refer but to go figure out what it means yes your honor and the reason i think that the broader definition the one that the courts generally apply is more appropriate is because that broader definition triggers a state with weapons limitation that would be left off the table in certain circumstances if this in would not trigger the federal weapons ban if this court chose the narrower definition applicable to the state now in a position now i don't think it makes a big difference and so so in essence the argument is that we should invert the rule of lenity because you're on it because we have a broader because we have a broad purpose of federal f should adopt the most broad state definition over a more narrow instinct well quite the opposite your honor because the rule lenity requires that the court look st text structure history and purpose of the statute and it did almost the same thing in caring because it was a narrower definition in care and a broader definition that they could have chosen and the supreme court chose the broader definition because only that one was consistent with federal firearms but that's interpretating a federal statute are federal state there's no so you're saying there's a broad federal purpose and therefore adopt the broad one that's one answer the other answer is the rule of liberty like protect people maybe we should look at the narrowly maybe there are other reasons we have to look at them but it doesn't seem like to me the idea that there's a general broad purpose ot up pushes in favor of the broad definition it isn't i do think the choice if the court if the answer from the north carolina court of what constitutes a definition of what constitutes conviction is it depends on the count i believe the question of which context to choose is purely a question but that's not the question for this because you're talking about which one would you choose for purposes of the federal one hundred and twenty two the purpose i get you say you want to criminalize lots of guns so that's the purpose i wouldn't put it that way what's the what's the structure i know i'm exaggerating the statutes purpose in structure are designed to attach to federal firearms attaches to the a guilty plea guilty plea under north carolina law disables you from carrying a concealed weapon and a guilty plea under north carolina law is north carolina courts defined as a conviction so that is the rules of evidence at a criminal trial so i think the answer is going to be the same but if you'll typically is some sort of the supreme court's kay and i'm sorry i'm  know so the supreme court's decision that you're referring to there in the criminal evidence contacts right as to whether the defendant could be cos examined on this prior guilty plea the supreme court there says that you know that to a conviction you don't actually say it is a conviction right the court uses that language but it applies that rule whenever the actual statute or provision requires a conviction so it's the rule of evidence says you can be impeached by a conviction  a court heard your i want to emphasize though that i really don't think the choice makes a big difference in this particular because a conditional discharge occurs a guilty plea and then assent and as this court held in  unequivocally a judgment or a judgment is imposed when the court imposes a sentence so you have a final judgment for purposes of the state filling positions in mr smith's cont even if you choose even if that's the proper diff whether whether that's the proper definition or the guilty plea alone is the proper definition the another piece of and i think we're talking about it earlier to the prayer for judgment continue the north carolina courts have repeatedly said a prayer for judgment continued if you don't impose any conditions other than you have to follow a lawyer or he subject but once the court imposes any conditions the prayer for judgment continued loses its characters of prayer for judgment i think have been able to find so for that reason the district court correctly held mr smith had been convicted at the time it was us this firearms under state law and therefore under one hundred and twenty two  care on decision from the supreme court that hiran by its own terms only applies to the unless clause that's at the end of a twenty definition not to the conviction and not to the specification that a conviction is governed by state law so really the government's entire argument is based on say a house it's a house of sand because karen has nothing to do with any of the part of a twenty that we're discussing here  additionally the government makes the argument that a conditional discharge is a final judgment because there is but if that were the case there would have been no reason for the north carolina general assembly to enact that statute at all because that result was are already existed with the prayer for judgment continued with conditions that interpretation would make this completely indistinguishable from that the statute itself contains a disclaimer saying unless another provision clearly requires otherwise and and that's the same result that would be obtained by ordinary