the life insurance company a policy contract provides for a sixty one dollars day grace period if he can't values are insufficient to pay the applicable cost of insurance charges and the policyholder fails to pay the charges out of pocket coverage will continue for sixty one dollars days and the policyholders are right to reinstate the policy benefits before that grace period and also that is that right is the coverage continued for own it's argument that you've accrued cost for that coverage as more force on the other hand if during the grace period you're not cover but you basically have the option to purchase coverage one of two ways either under fifteen i did it oh my goodness i forgot to pay my insurance bill so you go and you pay it and then you get reinstate it right and then you get another great spirit right or you die and then it seems like i think because of state law you get a kind of the options are automatically executed seems to meet that is a little bit if that's the case then your argument then that it didn't a bits where the insured is not dying during the grace period which is what happened here in fact the policy provides to the contrary the policy provides that benefits will be paying subject only to dead is that those class members in my client gave up all of their contract rights under the policy itself those contracts rights were significant it would be a right to reinstate prior to the end of the extension the company would nothing in the settlement agreement provides that any period of coverage prior to determination date beginning of the extension will be provided for free but that is what the plaintiff now seeks it for give not so how long it what is that period of coverage i guess the question one question is is does a coverage include the grace period or not yet the coverage that is prior to the terminations date which is not  extension the the the death benefit extension includes the sixty one dollars day grace period and that is very clearly defined in the settlement agreement itself at your when eighty you know go after him for a premium for the grace period do you know because at that point we've recovered the entire value of the policy itself there is no scenario in which a policy holder receives proceeds under the policy without paying for any used grace period and so in the circumstance that you described it more law the policy has been surrendered so it has been vetted and the grace period in which me which according to you w been accrued the premiums under your your current theory you don't your client did not go after people on the expiration and grace period  period right no more and no less and there were no charges no premiums no cost that were built or deducted for a day of coverage that occurred during the death benefit extension but the cut the some agreement very expressly contemplates you can see that after terminations that is after the end of the grace period then can see go shell discontinue billing the class member for additional premiums and that's exactly what happened when we did the whole reason you get into a grace period is because we've been billing premiums that are deducted from their accumulation account and at some point you're making only should count goes negative and that is what causes them to enter into the grace period be a cost of settlement which the settlement agreement says you're not going to have a cost you're not going to pose a cost of pre settlement you enter into the grace period right if you don't die during the grace period under what circumstance would you ever charge somebody for insurance during that grace period well eleven dollars but what circumstance council would you ever charge somebody if they don't die during the grace period putting aside the settlement in addition to the fact that they surrender the entire value of the problems which includes the value for the grace period i'll point you to e r that's sixty now so i don't know what that means they surrender the entire value for the value including the value of the grace period so the they didn't use the insurance during the grace because in die but they're not going to use the insurance at all because they're now going to die after this is in the non settlement world and so you what the answer that you will never charge them for that price period well you i mean in the same sense that they are not separately charged when it is deducted from a premium if persecuting from a have a proceed if they die during the grace period it's not a separate charge they end up being essentially charged the entire value of the policy because the policy terminates but in this is what i'm trying to point you to judge van dyke if you look at me are sixty there's a provision called the policy holder goes through their grace period and does not pay and the policy is than terminated they actually have the option to get the policy reinstated on the terms potentially on the terms that it was before but one of the conditions for reinstatement is that they pay the past due premiums for the grace period and if you see the say you stop paying you go through your sixty one dollars days are basically two months of a grace period you wait another year you come back you say i like to reinstate my policy and so i assume that you have to be insurable at that point and what you obviously have to pay for those two dollars those two months what about the rest of say the ten months you don't get any further you don't pay for that so you pay for the two months for which you had coverage under the grace period and you don't pay for the period at the end of the grace period until it gets reinstated for which you did not have coverage and what their tells you is also if you could turn just a few more pages beyond beyond what used on the r sixty three  tells you how long the insurance continues for c continuation of coverage there in the upper right hand corner yes and it says the insurance at all insurers will continue and tell and if you read that language is basically saying and tell you no longer have money in this account to cover it and that is when it enters into the grace period so here it says that your insurance continues until you enter into the grace period and then if you go just a few pages earlier than that it says that's where it says the insurer if the insurer dies during the grace for any past two months a duchess will be deducted from the proceed so it seems to me why you don't well you don't use the word auction it seems to me that this acts like an option contract and that is during the grace period you're essentially giving people the option to buy back their insurance they can do it either by dying and then it happens automatically as a matter of policy because states states require that or you can you can decide to do it right but if you don't do either of those things if you don't die and automatically do it or you don't decide what i want to get my insurance back in force and therefore pay your your last two months worth of insurance to get it to get reinstated then you never have to pay for under under the in the pre settlement world you never have to pay for it so the best way to describe the way it works at least is that it's an option is an option and why is it not like that i think that like the one exception to that is what you just showed that if you want to reinstate your insurance you since they have to pay for those two months presumably because they know they are saying well if you had died during that we we would have covered you because you would have exercise the option so we're going to but i don't see how that still doesn't change the fact that it's basically like an option and so when it in so the be extended when you actually add the settlement on if nobody exercise the option during that period then if you're if you're now charging him for that period you are that is provides a service the service they provide is coverage and for those sixty one dollars days then he had power and then he had service so the question is whether they have to pay for services rendered that predates  the free benefit extension and i want to clear this place you see that judge me and i had coverage you could say that coverage but they had coverage for free unless they die i guess another way to look at it but the key is like they didn't have to pay you say they had coverage but they were that unless they died during that period or if they reinstated their policy and they then they were getting the coverage for free so i guess you could call it an option or you can call it getting the coverage for free i mean you could you could say that or you could say that in every scenario there at that in which they get the benefit of the grace period they are paying for it because if think if they died during the grace period they have to pay for it now then what do you mean by the benefit of the grace period if if you say well if you say they're not getting the benefit of the grace period when they die five years later under the under the settlement agreement either i mean it was censored but that's that's a very important issue just beyond right because they absolutely are because it settlement agreement like i said if i put the settlement even aside i've got two things i can do if i die for sixty one dollars days i'm going to get i'm going to get the benefit and i have to pay for that benefit and if i if i want to extend it i have the ability to extend it without having to do it the way that you're talking about of i just have to pay pay my back charge premiums and i'll now have two extra months but they didn't do either of those two things i didn't do them and so now you're saying because the settlement we're going to make them pay for that seems to be because of the settlement not because of the original contract well not just me and i it's because they've got sixty one dollars days of coverage and that is simply under the plaintiff's theory also they already have sixty one dollars days of coverage under i mean then they already have dollars days of coverage under your view that they're covered i think it's more like an option but even if i take on your view that they were covered during those sixty one dollars days they already had that under the original contract any time you start making your payments you get sixty dollars days of essentially free coverage that you only have to pay for if you didn't die during that period but you're adding something you're saying when i got the paper that because of the settlement well well no it's it's not that you're paying for because of the settlement you're paying for it because it is what it paid more than any other circumstance unless you're dying there is a theory speculate that that's just fundamentally faults and the reason that it's false is because in any scenario the they are going to pay for that grace period they agreement or any of the relief to be interpreted to alter in any way the contractual terms of the policy reconstitute innovation of any policy and the amount that they recover isn't entirely the death the death benefit that they are going to receive is entirely governed by a policy there's no amount that is governed in any way shape or form i had a settlement agreement i think the it's very simple if you just look at the settlement agreement not being in the settlement agreement prohibits recovery of premiums for the grace period and other side concedes that when they acknowledge it page sixteen of their opening brief but if a policyholder die d during the grace period  but the one who dies on day sixty two doesn't have to pay for those two months of coverage that they had before they entered into the death benefit extension but not there is no charge here it is because of the accumulation account that happened every month before you reach the termination date and those have to have been deducted those are being deducted already is that going to sound it does it say that well it evidence well i think the judge judge were law if what you would delphi is that there is some ambiguity and it is not and there's no way to resolve it i think it's very straightforward how to and they say if income have dinner you will have dessert at no cost yes the dessert is free but you have to pay for the dinner and this is the dinner is the entirety of the coverage up until the terminations date and i think that these two pages with your were maybe five here or what he also i think i think you use your example there i think when i think it be like a restaurant that you always get dessert for free you always get desert for free and then they run a special and they say you because you try to get the nd is there for free but didn't eat the st dessert you charge for the st as or that's what's going on here well it's just me and i think the fundamental disagreement they were having is the idea that they don't pay for the grace period and the grace period is paid for in dollar of three ways it's either directly paid for out of pocket whether that's reinstatement whether it's doing what the policyholder did here several times which is to pay additional money into the account in order to forestall th but but if they're in there they're an extension period that's not relevant ok i got that one but they're an extension period they're not extending it other oh that is one problem with your argument is it creates an infinite regression to your now making them pay for the grace period and every time out of the contract when you pay for the grace period you actually extend so now there's no longer grace praise that should push it back another that's a separate problem i think you know if you respect legit like it's not a problem it's a feature of the contract specifically this settlement agreement specifically says under this paragraph five is the single most important paragraph in the settlement agreement on your one hundred and six and it's specifically sense that any premiums paid on an annual basis that exceed the premium that was previously paid operate to defer the date w so under that provision you just read that will now cause them to have actually have purchased insurance and now they're not in a grace period so that will push the grace pretty back which will now make them pay for again which will now course a grace period that's what i mean by the  the rd and the rd is that they surrender the policy that is given to the insurance company and more than the value of the cost that's a sissy ended with having need for the grace period these with these universal life policies they have a set aside that i think this is the judge one last point this is a cost of the you are what you're imposing is a cost of the of the extension of the free extension because that's all it's only happening because it was extended otherwise there'd be no obvious point that i was trying to make your vandyke is simply this that everything in the underlying policy confirms that if the policy holder receives a benefit if they receive a period of coverage then th something prior to the extension for a period of coverage that is prior to the extension means that whatever you think about this case is not a breach of the settlement agreement they can't state a claim breaching the solomon agreement because the settlement agreement only prohibits charging with a period of time is covered by the extension period and they never pled that there was an under a breach of the underlying policy and i don't think that there is because i think everything in the policy confirms if a person has has received services under the policy and they have to pay for the services i understand your argument i care i don't thank you very much cancel is when need insure dies during the grace period and counsel for wilco stated during his argument that the death benefits that were due to the plaintiff in the class undermines any argument that this after benefits attempt to resuscitate a right to charge for the grace period which ended in courts years ago are two dollars other provisions of the settlement agreement at the time we thank you very much and now the session in the car well