scotto chamber can mean chamber of commerce that applicant has offered some of these services and then on based on that it says it is clear that a consumer would immediately understand national chamber using connection with african services as conveying information about them you can just say it's clear well what it seems to me what they concluded was that since that national chain why it would be scripted for the certain other the director's office so i take attack you do and try to fill in the blanks as well the reasons why it would be descriptive for the services  appreciate that in terms of identifying anyone identifying the types of services they normally but the dictionary definitions that the book when we lived on the next chamber of commerce very much had to do with national chamber for any service that somehow could be construed a floating business if the scripts i mean this data analysis is one of the services how does the word national chamber can convey a function of business data analysis and for first the service that the step that the prison service we can talk about the first one announces a governmental policy remains a business analysis a regulatory activity relating to businesses for the purpose of running interest the business there's no evidence that chambers of commerce are traditionally understood to analyze governmental policy and regulatory activity the record has no evidence to suggest that in fact if you asked most people i don't think anyone would think they do jim a commerce onto the fourth of july fireworks you know they do also the committee things and this sort of other stuff is not what i would consider traditional chamber of commerce activities but more importantly there's no finding by the board that this is a traditional chamber of commerce activity registrations for chambers of commerce none of them had services matching any of the services we have here and which actually suggest that these are the type of services you would get petted shape the chamber competition office so therefore making the argument that well everyone knows that these just commonly offered by chambers of commerce therefore the national chamber and i kind of lose the thread at that point because all they have is like one sentence but the fact that is there's no evidence to start that descriptive drawings with fines or describes one of the services that are provided doesn't have to describe all of the services well now there's so little you when you say chambers and you go out and look in the dictionary or you run a printout the chamber is and it says chambers of commerce doesn't that fit the description of providing the interests of business people and then when these it's nationals just do it on a national level isn't that what we're looking at here well actually the it's not just generically promoting the interest of business men and women and we can say well if anything promotes the interest of business men and women the word nap the phrase national chambers descriptive for because chamber for the understood understand  descriptive although ironically enough we actually had a registration for that for about thirty years and the office didn't find it distinctive to begin with but this is for other services that are not traditionally chamber of commerce services but what i do know in the business community and is the board said that also that he they concluded that analyzing government policy relating to businesses is for the purpose of are if you acquired the rights for chamber of commerce services i think the problem is you were kind of all sitting that full because you're a chamber of commerce and the service you're providing is kind of a chamber of commerce service but the is what is traditionally would be understood by consumers the chamber of commerce service and i was with and most of these are not first and you said well if there any evidence of that first what was the office's obligation to prove evidence that it wants some i haven't proved that it's references to the chamber of commerce offering such services there's a couple media references in there but none of them have anything to do with the type of services we're talking about here they could get examples from the web of where team of commerce are offering the services this of what a chamber of commerce is and there's also a dictionary definition that at sablon says that chamber that word is synonymous equivalent to a chamber of commerce they admit it's much the chamber is a shorthand the website evidence also shows so based on the least this aspect of the evidence what we know is that chambers typically promote the business and facilitate that express how do you make the leap between that and providing these particular services as it is inherent that therefore anything in the under the sun that promotes that one could construe it as promoting the interests of business with the for come under the mark necessarily arguably it could i don't think we need to go that far because we have the evidence in the record that confirms what these dictionary definitions say the chamber of commerce do there's two news articles in there that talk about how the chambers ensure that they're involved in governmental policies and decisions if it ain't six sixty four and they provide ad where the drain is the as the board call goes out the board does not call those out but they are in the record and this really goes to the point that they're saying that the examining attorney never put forth any evidence or explanation and throughout the prosecution of this application they were given the evidence and the explanation and the explanation was you have to individually defective terms we're dealing here with a compound mark ok and it's under this court's precedent decades old it's entirely proper for the board to look at the individual component terms and what they need and if they're both individually descriptive of the services that issues the question then becomes we put them together is there any new meaning in this imparted here there is none and as the board found i mean there's no other way to do it as we're going to if one of the things he listed under services was selling is that sufficient is that connected enough to promoting the interests of business i would say that separately is is not within the typical penumbra unless there was evidence that showed they are a chamber of commerce they really can't get away from that their name is the united states chamber of commerce that it's fair to look at what they do to get an idea of how would purchasers perceive what a chamber of commerce does that offers the services i think that that very true when you say chamber of commerce but when you just say chamber national chamber and i thought about this morning when i was sitting in my chamber pondering about the case i mean chamber has a lot of meanings and if you a chamber to people generally you think about a big room you don't you don't think about a big room full of business people analyzing each other you do when you say dreamer commers well  detest however assumes that the person looking at the market knows with the services are and so you've got to look at the meaning of the term in relation to the services and we also have here there are explicit admission as well as lots of evidence in the record that it's of commerce and it is at the seven attorney said in the merced places in the office action as they regarded it merely as an entity designation again a shorthand for chamber of commerce because they're the provider the services so i mean that it seems that this appellant is trying to have a very narrow definition of what it means to be descriptive or to convey information it's not about the mark describes the services it describes an aspect of the service it's a feature or a characteristic and what the feature characteristic the chamber describes here who's offering the services national describes the geographic scope you put that together it's a chamber of commerce that a national level or they are operating as a national cham congress as the board explicitly found they didn't need to say more it conveys that information so they said that they believe that anyone readily seen this what understanding conveys information about all of the services at a lab and it takes no mental leap to understand that applicant is using the mark for the services in both applications as a national chamber of commerce whether promoting the interests of business persons or industry on a national level or connecting local chambers of commerce to a nationwide network that is the analyze the pieces of evidence they analyze the terms separately and then consider it in its entirety and then do so in the context of looking at if they make the note that applicants name is the chamber of commerce of the united states of america and the website offers these services and they point to the directory information services that include a national network of local and state chambers of commerce and then they say it's clear that a consumer would immediately understand the term national chamber after they've already established national is descriptive chamber is descriptive of the chamber of commerce the chamber of commerce is involved in promoting the interests of business and when you look at the services you've got provided information and news in the field of business and legislative and regulatory business is something that would be would be permissible here is that your position i think that is probably a fair conclusion to reach but my actual position is that here we have evidence that these services are provided by chambers of commerce there's the evidence that i pointed to the articles that are talking about how chambers do advocacy and businesses join chambers to get business contacts and to have their interests promoted and then the applicant's own website which shows that they're doing all of these things so we're allowed to look at their website to inform the understanding in the context in which the reception of these services is going to understand what the market means in connection with them and i wou to also point out they have raised numerous times the fact that they owned a registration for national chamber for the association services modi's businesses that they got on the principal register that issued in the one nine hundred eighty i looked at the file history of that registration it was refused as nearly descriptive originally they got around that because they had another application for the marc u s chamber also for association services that they had taken up to the board and in that case the board found that there was not evidence that chamber is equivalent  evening to chamber of commerce here we have that evidence in addition they have registrations and the record is replete with other third party registrations where they have again registration for us chamber of commerce and chamber of congress a united states of america  been treated and i would also maintain that if you have association services promoting the interests of business and that's descriptive which it is then if you are the association and those specific services that you do as the association to promote the interests of business it has to be descriptive for those two you cannot have applicants micro defining their services in a way that makes it seem like they're not really part of that larger umbrella of services that this in this case the chamber of commerce provide at the other point i'd like to make is that they do have an option here we're not saying that they can never get registration this marks the child application in fact they like you back in two thousand  service they don't really need to know that you are type of thing that's just an incorrect analysis national cheaper these you refer for the national chamber of commerce in the border from national chamber of commerce they get to this point we're kind of all presuming that there's a generic thing called a