meeting and we don't have the summer love of the meeting minutes yet either so we'll go into public comment there's anyone in the audience has of the public comment to make at this time on anything that's either on the agenda the conservation commission has heard from them on a number of occasions and has discussed this and is strongly in support of having the town transferred the parcel to the park district and secure a place where people can park cars and access it whether that's the part of the management plan for the parcel of the lot of questions to be answered but from a conservation standpoint it it rates very highly and that's really the main filter that we go by and the other filters that our board looks at and we haven't made a final decision on this because of that it but you know we rate you know can we manage this site can  realistic for us to do it is does it fit our mission does it have high enough conservation value and it meets all those criteria so the board is very supportive of us pursuing this project which is all a best of th point obviously it's been it it's been a conversation amongst a relatively few minor people so we feel pretty strongly that we'd love to have a robust public conversation about this because we understand  a proposed process which is also reflected rick's notes suggesting a motion to a public hearing i think it's a public hearing it's also putting things on our web page it's you know talking to the media it's a number of ways that we want people to come back to us and and and express their opinions about it and we just haven't done that process yet so we feel pretty strongly that needs to happen before we can go to the next level but we're just looking for my ok to know two basic questions i apologize i have not read this in the detail that both of these should have so could you summarize the  highly it is from a recreational standpoint it's also a very unique spot in that three neighborhoods are directly a budding it means we think right off the bat if we put a developed trail in there it's going to get a lot of use so that you know there's two pieces to it we also use a thing called bio finder which i suggest you check out online it's the agency in natural resources has a very sophisticated program where you can you know it's a mapping program you can go to a site and they have overlays that look at everything from rare and endangered species to wildlife corridors and you know flood plains wetland so on and so forth and this site rates very high so you know the shorthand you know right away we property remember every yeah it's not it's not like it's an undiscovered property but we have found that when you get people into a property in a responsible developed way in a well maintained site that you develop a constituency that helps you protect the property so there's there's the tradeoff you know we have a long history of getting people into areas where they would not be able to before through boardwalks and trails and so forth and the more people responsibly enjoy those sites the more we get the call saying hey someone you know is hunting out there you know left a bicycle what side of the trail so it's there's the trade off and you really hit the nail on the head ok it is not a site that is so you know we do have portions of some of our properties we just don't like people  d not many of them but there are you know they're way on really jumps out as being it is so wet and densely rich in endangered species and habitat that just letting people in that's where we do is is not is not a wise thing but this this site it's it's upland so it's it's pretty easy to be able to develop a trail system in there take a couple bridges to get in there because you go over streams to get to the site and they have the of you know get out of jail free clause whereby if we don't perform or you know we go belly up or there's some you know major event that the town could take possession or transfer to another like organization where would that clause act reset and what document would it set it would depend on how we negotiate the transfer with the city i've seen it in a bunch of different forms sometimes it's in a conservation easement i think initially we're not looking at can't block the view of a neighbor that donated land to us ok sometimes it's underlay to water conservation fund walls which are federal rules that prevent you from developing a site and keeping it open for public or recreation so it really differentiates but i think with this one and to be clear i haven't talked or attorney about it it would be a side agreement that would go the transfer i think initially and then if if and when the town and the park to sort decide it's appropriate to put some kind of permanent easement on the property th that the easement we're doing her backers are doing the management plan first and then i think what we'd like to do is be able to get the property up and going manage for a wallet and and have after mitchell community discussion on whether it's a good idea have a discussion whether it makes sense to put some kind of permanent conservation easement or whether it's it doesn't add any particular protected and i don't really have opinion on that yet because that that or into the process next question i suspect i know the answer but i'm mascot way and i'm actually aiming this more at linda lin is there any any concerns you have about you know this how this is going to progress forward in terms of the necessary documents that whether it be a side agreement an easement what have you is there any anything we should know about about how that would move forward or concerns you have about if moving forward does that make sense first of all kind of  trust you know those who will be involved in that it's just more as we're i think tonight we're going to give some sort of a sense of concurrence at least of moving forward and i'd just like to know are there concerns staff have about you know some of the pitfalls that might happen as you have those are the right questions that you're asking and i don't know what they are so i have to ask yes yes well i just looked through my nose i didn't have a lot but i notice there are multiple access points for the town i've no idea what the issues would or wouldn't be in terms of using that as an access point but you know right now you can just go right there morgan or park with it is key getting access just sure we have access and you know then my question this revolve around i mean you you were talking about the habitat and i notice that's adjacent or part of a bigger much bigger dearie aired yes it was an outer in outer area and then  invasive species and then the really how you would remove them yeah is that is that your team or your staff that would do that or is that the town it's because it's a combination it's a it's a never ending battle and nasty stuff but but that is i mean diminishment of that it would become our responsibility we do a lot of that work we do with with volunteer groups with y c see with you know there are a lot of ways we recruit people into the very time intensive but that would be something you would plan yes that they'll be our responsibility yeah you know my biggest concern would be access again just to make sure we have i see them based on what you said the neighborhoods because they have but they all have access so at a minimum you're we're going to get a lot of use from those neighborhoods probably don't have anything right is already a neighbor who has a trail cut directly from the project you're going to which is great if you have your own park but i mean i'm glad you brought about access because we're not comfortable taking title to this until we at least figure out and i get it but we're not at a point where i can pick up the phone and have the conversation because we're not far enough into the process as a little bit of a catch twenty two so far the reason we're here is not to ask you to rule on anything but just to give us a sense of whether you're comfortable with us moving for the process i think that's a good way if the process looked looked good i mean melinda does a great job as you know get the transfer of the former jacob parslow to the new ski valley park district so presumably you guys have or request it is more than we asked for last year the good news is that we have work and so even though our budget increased by six point four percent i think we're asking the towns or or from four to have to five percent increase for the next  year and we do you know just to be clear the last couple of fiscal years were flat and in retrospect i would have liked to have asked for a percent each year just to make it a softer blow in fact that suggestion was made to me by the folks in essex but overall i can tell you that relative to other organizations nationally that do this work i think we're very much in the low end of terms of what we need to our district but i would welcome any you know any questions you know can provide a copy of the budget with all the line items and so forth and you know mostly increases personnel and cost of doing business we do we did hire another hourly employee that we kept your round practice rmy he did that natural resource and tore it but he's also he helps he runs our summer camp in our winter camp he works on our crew and he does contracting work so he'd already been with us for four years starting out as a college kid in america corps and then a crew member at it and a camp counselor and so a little less than half of his times being covered through entrepreneurial entrepreneurial means he's bringing in money as he works so we felt and he knows it's a bit of an experiment but it's really worked well because we're small organization and he just knows how to get stuff done so you know the bottom line it had to simplify the increase in our costs as we did add a person to our organization but we've also increased our our contracting which is something we're going to keep ramping up incrementally over the next couple few years and there's a lot a real unmet need that towns have to go to maintain their conservation areas so we we definitely have a niche that we could if we had the resources and more equipment parks from like the spring through the only fall and then we also hire several camp counselors to help run our summer camp programs for eight weeks in the summer and then we have an american or environmental educator that search through the vermont housing and conservation board and we contribute to part of their living state band and they serve with us for an eleven month term and they do you know our afterschool programs  our summer alp with our summer camp as well so so we increased you know the salaries because of adding john ramey as the additional the full time year round employee but then also as our camps expand we need to hire more people to help cover those in the those other things must be under i'm assuming they're understaffed salaries temporary or yes yeah result which isn't too bad and looking at the good budget the the real increases the salaries are really also sort of either forced to be in this level funded or your own salaries and i was thinking more of all the rest of the expenses that you have a yes they look like they are most of them have decreased at least a little bit of plan for the worst  but it's but what you know we've been able to we try to reduce costs at every at every turn so yeah we've been able to based on  history over the last summer's downs and costs a lot of areas you're right i just noticed every it looks like every line item except for salaries went down yeah a little bit  can i ask just just on the benefits that the lead staff how do you set the benefit levels and is that just done three organization or given a personnel personal policy which is you know very similar to a lot of municipal personnel policies in the board determines what the levels of benefits are basically there is a in any will allowance for for health over and above you know  a into that we've got basic i care which is actually very cheap and sure is basic dental is there a notion or a policy for what percentage you know the towns are ask give us that would be the employees you know yourself and the other employees pay versus what is funded out of there's no no there's no policy that connects you know how much how much detail is is i'm trying to think what we call ourselves the district the park district does the purse park district pay one hundred percent benefits ninety percent of your benefits and you've contribute that will be happening this this year but they were for at least they got health insurance it was based on a dollar amount based on the premiums at that time and i believe it was a percentage of it but i can't think of what the injuries and then dental is covered i'm just asking because well you know i wasn't looking at our own staff's good policies and you know that i look at whether residents have to piers i'm just trying to a huge part of our discussions many many trustee meetings both an open forum in executive session and says it's  unique it is unique to willesden that there are issues that have been expressed but we also have always totally respected the point of view that the equalizer in list is a difficult measure to conceptualize and use but the concept of it is to have relative affordability between towns and that's the extent that we've tried to do with the formula we've looked at different modes using poverty levels using just the commercial grant list and you know i think our board is willing you know it's we're going through a lot of changes but it we haven't come up with a different funding model that my board buys into and also if we changed it there's also that the realistic concern of other towns not buying into a new funding model so we feel we we have done just about everything else that we need to in terms of our relationship with with the town here but that particular issue i don't think the board i mean jump in you know what i would just s using to pretty quick so just to be clear if it was based solely on population it would be assuaged what you're talking about is trying to take population and add some sort of  correct that's where it's not it's not like we feel the issues over i mean it's just the opposite i mean we were frankly we were all really gratified by the vote last year but we didn't feel like it was you know it's like i told record it wasn't a you guys are under a lot of pressure from a lot of regional agencies who find themselves in a variety of different ways and we get that so it's it's not like we exist in a cocoon where the only ones we you know when we started this and we're probably years from now i can look back and say hey we have a system that made the park district solid over the long term i think the the formerly we got to continually look at that and always do it self investigation different ways to do it there might be there might be some idea out there that hasn't been expressed yet that could really work and we're focused on making sure that we're bringing the service to our communities that may have been lacking before and increasing our contracting and keeping ourselves efficient and increasing our programming and that's worked well for us in terms of the money income that we've been able to bring in without sort of digging our operation in terms of our ability to maintain our own assets so it's a long way of saying we don't think the issue is over but we have not been after a really pretty intense or stations about it we have not come up with something that we feel is a good replacement of i'm not i just i it's not it's not no no we're going to and we're going to abandon the issue it's what i think about every single day professionally is how are we going to be sustainable financially in the long term and i want to be clear in my view this this relationship is not something that should be counted on if this if this issue does not get serious redress and i don't know how else to say it and not sound aggressive  three no other corrections was in favor of approving the minutes of december fourth twenty eighteen say i i i opposed and one of all have been written on this subject for this year there were four four request for plowing this year and four town this is the end of still want to mean that we do which is between talcott road and for road at this point it's a section we built a few years ago to make that connection through there so that's the one section we didn't talk about that last year because it wasn't until after we did this but i'm going to request from the same person for that area for that little section  winter so they're still maintaining the path through zephyr road it goes from two to way at this point but next year we will be maintaining that and this actually make the connection policy at this point  it's the course removing snow from the section of sidewalk reasonable compared to others just people on the sidewalk so it's not a big deal there we do get near this area because we do it on two way but we don't go into this neighborhood itself and the sidewalk is constructed the public works standards so at this point we're not recommending that that get added planning for next year the third request  commercial areas we want to talk about things going acting too but the darkness side walks through there do have some connection because there are some commercial properties as part of that development they're not drug stores or grocery stores or those kind of places they're hairdressers and you know some other businesses along zephyr road there so that one is not being recommended at this time and the fourth is from michael lane you come from of the four also and that's a cause for removing snow reasonable and is a sidewalk constructed a public work standard answer to both of those yes for two of eight groups who are the i'm sorry did i recommendation it does point the only section like and they said it's to add stillwater it would just put a caviar where you consider this stuff in that if we decide to start taking too much more sidewalk we're talking about buying another machine at this point so i just want you to keep that in mind if you heard machine now their second machine right now we have a sidewalk machine and a pick up that we use ok and it takes a sidewalk machine about five hours on average snowstorm if there is such a thing now we don't even start doing sidewalks my policy until there's two inches of snow so that's not you know always  unseat feet wide so many people including you know the development i live in have sent in these things and is there any expectation to ever get to  neighborhoods which are most of the neighborhoods in the town like michael in all these different neighborhoods where it's basically a neighborhood sidewalk rate it's to keep keep people off the roads in the winter or is that t so that we will have to come back at a later meeting and secondly you know we can add as many sidewalks as you want it is just a matter of cost and the cost can be you know the thing that's even a little bit more daunting than that is that we have ten miles a four foot wide sidewalk if we plow four feet wide four foot wide sidewalk we're going to be tearing up a foot of sidewalk or half a foot of sidewalk on both sides because a plow five feet want you can't get a four foot wide plow oh so it's old spec sidewalk so the only thing i was wondering is i understand the financial implications and every year we hear a number of these right and i don't know what the policy is in other towns should we consider asking the voters what it's worth to them to maintain sidewalks in the  town of essex does it much the same way we do i don't know enough to even add consider adding sidewalk anymore to be honest with you i can tell you the city of south bronx and plows every inch of sidewalk and past the city of burlington i'm i've got to believe is the you know you adopt an ordinance and makes sidewalks in front of people's properties their responsibility which is not out of the ordinary on usual and that's really you know that's about it  year the top would have been done and they were going to in late in the year the developer called me late because they promised me they would have it done that this year because i want to have it done me leave new year and ask if they could  ahead ready to do the top on his and i asked her to developers to get together and talk about paving that road all at the same time rather have a bunch of seams and that road so that will happen in the spring as far as the other roads in the hamlet are concerned i'm not sure what he's thinking about putting the top one of those is there any interest in looking at what it would cost to the sidewalks and asking the voters whether they would be interested well that's a different a different discussion for a different time i think because it leave it at that we would need to get a lot of information about cost and then right right right but it would we had we have to kick off looking at it first right what it would take to do the say one thing i picked up on a couple things i picked up on if you don't mind is everybody scored pretty much in the first criteria the one about removing snow is reasonable compared to the other sections except for the hamlet and then everybody also scored with the sidewalk constructed to current public work standards and it so the first thing is is why didn't the hamlet score score well they're not physical reason that iran has a place so yeah the cost could be ok ok and this is just an observation it's fine i'm glad somebody asked me to if i wanted to see if anybody caught it and the opposite of the actually the ok another observation  is it appears most people get the first in the last boxes checked so that's almost kind of for lack of a better word standard that may not be the best description so it's really the other criteria that kind of what gets you into the yes it makes sense to consider your to add you vs no so that's just just an observation there and in the one i checked that did check those other boxes were still water who i'm going with this particular snake he was recommending store oh yes i get that yeah that's my point is it got two boxes other than those quote unquote standard to which i'm started the policy we have doesn't describe really only says these are the criteria you consider so when i'm starting to figure out it's ok as i'm using these criteria what value how my going to value how the boxes get checked off and it seems that you have to get at least i should say at least but a consideration is more than the standard two to fall into that it adds enough value that we ought to take it on does that make sense it doesn't but my my my other thought and reason i was asking the other question is they never change rate you're either going to be two boxes or one box or three boxes but that's never going to change that you can put in a request every year for your yes i'd like to be clouded it's never going to be approved so yeah i think and i can see your point some of them might change because those developments connect to each other some of the connectivity boxes could get changed i could show me a better but i get your point it's going to be hard to check boxes as the future you know in the future because things are going to change significantly enough so so that you can check those boxes maybe if the chair will entertain a discussion at a future date maybe ask  a future agenda and in the other quick last question i have is when it talks about these will be the plowing will take place next season and that's starting in the winter of two thousand preventer to speak to some of the points about our request for the hamlet a sidewalk plowing and i first like to take a moment to look at the criteria there are a couple criteria that were not checked that we had some questions about comments about so with respect to reasonable us of cost i was interested to hear that where to put the snow is an issue that was not something that we were aware  of but in general it's worth noting that the hamlet is a very dense community their single family detached condos right now there's forty three built two more probably to be built so there's very little sidewalk per unit so in terms of the amount of sidewalk per home that would be using it locally but i also would mention that there's constant traffic on our sidewalks from not just our community but the communities that are around so it seems as though it might be reasonable in terms of cost per minute of usage these and i also wanted to mention that impact fees were collected during the permanent process for community and we feel it would be nice to see those monies going toward services for the community that that paid them with regard to connection to services we were pleased to see that that was seen as meeting the criteria we we do act as the only way for many folks and if any crossing area to get over to the clocktower shopping center there's no connected sidewalks along route to or from the hamlet directly to the clock towers you have to go through the hamlet or along as half or to route to a in order to get there as well as blair park  criteria number three is around demand and the hamlet sits at the heart of this new dense residential area we believe is roughly a thousand residents that live in and around the hamlet which represents more than ten percent of the town's population and it's constantly in use i work from home full time so i'm on the first floor i look up the window there's people going by all day long many of whom do not live in our neighborhood and we welcome them but it is a consideration we have folks who use it to access for dog walking and exercise and recreation as well as walking to services like transportation there's a bus stop on route to a right next door there are commercial facilities from up tech is across the street i personally use it to walk my son to daycare on player park and we're very pleased to see that her and cornerstone look like they'll be planted in the future and there's a lot of demand for the ability to walk within a neighborhood not just to walk from the neighborhood along the bike path either along two way or over toward allen broke  i don't number four is around safety concerns this is only been seeing a lot this winter folks are being forced to walk in the streets we do have a contract to have our sidewalks plowed  but sometimes it's not done consistently or it's not done in ordination with neighboring communities like finney crossing in chelsea place so what ends up happening is sometimes there's snow left blocking access from one neighborhood into another or one neighborhood is plowed and one is not yet plowed so having consistency would be really helpful right now there is a school bus stop in our neighborhood and so children are walking on the street to get to the school bus and wait for the school bus at the same time as there is construction vehicles plowing the streets so there are safety concerns we do have a number of handicapped folks in the neighborhood who use our sidewalks and it's a particular safety concern for them when they are not able to connect from one sidewalk to another or it's not consistently cleared criteria number five is around major arterial or connector roads collector roads and or long sefer and it's worth noting that a lot defined but there's a lot of traffic in our area so folks are walking on the street it's a problem criteria six around school walk routes and while we do not fall on  route we do have a number of children who are elementary school age and should be able to walk to school when their snow events safely number seven is around designated recreation loops and while we do not we don't believe we fall on a recreation loop or it doesn't mean every christian path we do of but against the effort bowed path and eventually that will mean that our sidewalks our connection for folks to get see that public works finds are sidewalks to be up to standard and as was mentioned our roads should be finished paving next year hopefully and in which case the roads will be fully ready for hand over and there will be the bump ups from the partially paved roads on to the sidewalks which right now adds an additional hazard and i believe phil wanted to say something as well he i do  a jump in with a question like that so i guess one of the things that maybe i'm confused about is i guess i heard read say that i read that you have a contract for plowing so it's like these are condos or apartment buildings in this area and typically there's property maintenance that's just part of the deal of owning a condo or owning an apartment in one of these areas in the end property mean and snowplows and takes care of those areas is it true not than the one request that the public works director has said is to approve the one for her school or lane there is a motion to  effect if you wish to make clear so they can start discussion i'd move to amend the sidewalk back when terminus policy attachment one to include the section of stillwater lane between zephyr road and tel are discussion on the motion should consider the rest if you know other words if they're not meeting the bar that bruce is that you know the most urgent and that person is recommending that room we can see and we can change the policy rate so which is what i recommend we look at at least look at the cost and but again that's a different that's a subject for a different i mean i'm not disagreeing i agree it's just tonight i have one that i could i could vote for even though it doesn't check more than two recorded a great job you know and i can be convinced by that i agree with the sentiment i feel badly about extending services but if we actually apply the criteria that exist now  it's a rather clear answer i do think that we need to revisit this issue i would like to know what the total numbers would be for piling everything and how big that that could be a huge thing i mean his name is always always surprised on you know on the sly chord that you know you have a good idea and then and then it turns out that you look at the dollars so you know i would like to look at the dollars before we really sure that bruce would be happy to talk to you folks any time regarding the the policy and the procedures that go with it sure leaving today met so i'll just start off by mentioning there's actually two chapters of the bible up for amendment tonight one of them is a very large amendment and one of them is just about as small as amendments get the smaller one is the addition of one more out use to industrial west this was a request a citizen request that came to the planning commission and would add a financial services nine non retail financial services use to the list of about abuses in the industrial district where a number of other technical service and accounting uses are already allowed the planning commission's position on this one was they didn't see any problem with it they felt they could support it but didn't want to make it its own item subject to its own full and complete noticing and hearing process but would rather co located it with something else that we were spending some more time on so i just wanted to be clear that we had that as well  and that sort of probably be easier one to introduce and dispose of i think of probably done that just now that the only question i mean no issues with that one from my standpoint it's just the question of the oh when i looked at  what you provided for information it almost was like it's as you said it's a relatively minor as in minors you can get change only form based zoning sort of get rid of those types of questions and it seems to me what happened here is there was it's almost like an oversight not to include it in does form based zoning sort of get rid of the potential have these oversights you know where you just forgot not forgot is the right word he didn't realize she should and a specific as i see code  i guess there's a new not acronym for it's not it's i see anymore much yeah and they i c s now north american history thank you so your question you know would having a form based code do away with some of these complications of particular use categories the answer is that it certainly could have a very briefly a form based code is the idea that you regulate how sites are developed where buildings are placed what the buildings look like a good example of phone based code as any building you see going up in city center south carolinian right now you see you're seeing entire four story buildings there that were approved administratively without a d r v hearing but under a very very perspiring prescriptive code of what buildings have to look like and included how they have to be situated on their site so form based code emphasizes form and either does away with or deemphasize is use to a large degree i would offer up another alternative  which is simply a simplification of the way the town's bylaws deal with the use really great advice actually coming from the south burlington planning director he has sort of six easy steps to simplify your zoning byelaw it's a little presentation paul does and he says you know really take a look get your uses in your zoning code and just name the ones you really don't want in a particular part of town and you know so for example in a purely residential zone you say well we really don't want anything other than residential and ballistas case childcare but in the industrial zoning district you might say something like really anything can go here as long it meet as it meets the form but we don't want specialty retail because we really want that somewhere else something like that so you can you can make your categories much more general sometimes and a i c s provides a spot a false sense of precision because there's these big six six digit numbers attached everything that's a project for another day until we do something much more global like that we're kind of stuck with occasionally running into g s that makes sense there but it's not quite the right code number and that's where requests like that come from the think you know just a form based code it's mainly the what the building looks like this so you could think of a four story rendering plant earth slaughterhouse allowed for example you're more urban districts will have lot coverage requirements that you just wouldn't be able to do that sort of thing there but it's it can be a bit of a leap of faith sometimes that you know you're you're taking away some of that use regulation and just looking at form one way willesden has in his pay to his comprehensive plan looking at form based code is to look at it for the growth center and you could keep all of those allowed and not allowed uses underneath that at least at the outset and say so here's all but you can and cannot do in this district but if you come here here's what we on the building to look like and you can do form based code and still regulate use underneath it certain purist consulting firms won't work with you on that they they're true believers that if you do form that's all you've got to have there are other firms that are happy to work on hybrid codes and different county communities have have fallen along that spectrum as they've moved to form base co e so like i said that was relatively easy one i know you that i was on the agenda for fifteen minutes tonight so i'm going to try to summarize and leave lots of room for questions here in this introduction to amendments to growth management the first thing i would say is this is the culmination of a ballet fourteen months of public process with the planning commission including two large public input sessions a series of work sessions and several public hearings ending in november of this year related to these amendments little bit of background since about nine hundred ninety williston has regulated the pace of residential growth in terms of on average how many new dwelling units can be created per year in town for the last twenty years or so it's williston's look at that in these ten year cycles so allocation happens once a year but it happens looking out across  a ten year window and every year you're somewhere within that window and the other part of allocation is it went from a very simple system of how many drilling units per year are we going to have new in town to geographically segregating them and saying well we want most of the new dwelling units to happen in the growth center and some of them in the rest of the sewer service area and a few of them out in the ag world part of town and then evolved even from there to say well if we're going to let new development build we're going to make it competitive and new projects will need to offer up certain attributes and compete with one another for that limited supply of allocation so we have a system now that constrains the  number of new units per year that can be built in town it's competitive and it incentivises things that are not often otherwise required by this owning by a lot of things like energy efficiency affordable housing neighborhood design  etc so that's the system we're starting with and there's some things about that system that have been fairly problematic one is that when you say well you can't build the unit until this day but we don't want you to just sort of have the right to build that unit forever and ever you deal with elements of exploration and in a down economy suddenly you have projects that are partially expired developments that are stalled out related to that that can be really difficult keeping track of the whole system is difficult because as the town has adopted allocation in these ten year blocks where a project comes in in that ten year cycle can stay you can start with a very of project in year one of ten but there's there's sort of this fairly wide open allocation out in front of it and in the same project in year nine of ten can't even get out of the starting blocks because everything's been given away in it and it's competing with lots more or you can have a project that comes in somewhere in the cycle and there's nobody else looking for units and so it gets allocation and you can have the same project with five competitors another year and it doesn't get to move forward so as much as you'd like to think that it's you know it's consistent and the the goodness of a project always equates a certain amount of allocation we can see some problems in the system where it doesn't really work that way and once a project gets allocation it has a certain number of unit year it can build that can start to look like an awfully long time frame for the build out of a project and we've received that comment related to some of the newer developments coming through town you know someone will say well you mean that the allocation for this project is stretched out over an eight year time period i'm going to have a construction site in my backyard for eight years and it's because of this system or at least there's a perception that it has of the system so those are just a few of the challenges that the planning commission wanted to address based on the system and i would say that this process started from a very open ended perspective where the only town in the state that does anything like this for residential development this is an additional step in subdivision but nobody else does it has served the town well in achieving a lot of its goals but we put it on the table you know should the town continue to do this should the town continue to do this across the whole town or should we not do it in the growth center anymore where saying we want to grow the answer for three public input in with the planning commission was yes we still to have some kind of a town wide growth management system yes we still want to have a geographic distribution of units that focuses into the growth center yes we still want to incentivize things that we either don't or don't think we can play get away with requiring of all development but there are certain kinds of development that are so important to the town that we really don't want them to be restricted by this system anymore we don't want to make people get allocation if they're building to eling units that are at eighty percent of the median income or below affordable that's the type of development that we've gotten almost none willesden despite our efforts to incentivize it here we also think that there might be certain the really really terrific projects that bring so much to the town that they shouldn't have to be part of the growth management system  the per year growth target so in this draft you're going to see both the exemption of those eighty percent median or below fordable units and you're going to see something we identified in this draft as high scoring developments  turn the planning commission uses the high flyer project where we've set a very high scoring level of seventy points out of a hundred said projects that score seventy points or more are not part of the eighty unit per year growth target and receive a straight through  remainder of their permit in process now that happens within a framework where it's getting harder to score seventy points under this system system and i'll  briefly go over a few of those adjustments as well for a long time the energy efficiency incentive in this system has been a giveaway it says all units will be built energy star five star well today twenty eighteen anybody building a house is going to get a residential building efficiency certificate at the end of their process which everybody has to do is building to that standard so every project is getting full plates for that we've replaced that with a tiered score related to the stretch goals so it gets harder to achieve it's something more than just any old person building a house would have to do a stretch goals i'm sorry that's so what you would see here this is a efficiency vermont  goal and the terror the term is efficiency vermont high performance level and so we have that and then we have a tiered system based on what percentage of your units are going to meet that and then if you want full points you're also adding in on site energy generation via solar or energy storage via battery to add resiliency to the grid so those are new things  before before we were using this five star system so one other sort of general point before i go into or answer questions it's that ten year window and i mentioned how that the ten years at a time window has been problematic in terms of how it impacts the competitiveness of projects what it what it means to be at the beginning versus the end of the window this draft proposes replacing that with a rolling ten window and what that means is be in making allocation would always be looking ten years into the future and they would not be looking any years into the past so what happens as a practical matter today we're in say year four of a ten year cycle in the d r b has now been put in front of them and they have like so many units and well we can give them this much of what they want going out in the future but hey nobody wanted this stuff from the past so we'll pull it forward so effectively we have a ten year window all the time as long as nobody was asking for the stuff that's back in the past what rolling allocation would do is it would always load a new tenth year into the system automatically but it would drop all of the past years behind so if somebody you know if the unit was not allocated out of here it would simply disappear it would no longer be available that is what happens today every ten years when we move from one cycle to another so every year you would have a ten year horizon in front of you we think that would level off the competitiveness question a little bit it would let the dealer be always see that that lengthy dest distribution of projects across the decade last  thing is the provision for the timing of construction once you get allocations for projects often receive allocation because we're looking at this limited pool of units per year they'll receive allocation across five or six or more years that at times creates an artificial waiting period for a project under progress to build all of its units it builds the units because vailable and suddenly the developers waiting for the turn of the fiscal year to be able to get their next couple of permits doesn't help that our fiscal year falls a couple months into the construction season you know literally just those few months creates complications but what this proposal would do is it would say your project gets allocation it gets allocation across six or seven or eight years but once you start building you may simply keep building until the project is complete if you finish ahead of schedule you finish ahead of schedule and on a town wide scale and on a ten year scale that means things are a little lumpy but our impression from modeling it looking at it is things are no more lumpy in terms of the number of new units per year the town experiences under that system than they are today because what happens today is projects that get allocation over six or seven years get their allocation started and then they wait three years and then they start building and they build everything they've sort of amassed so the experience from the town is is almost never that applicants are building every single unit in the year in which they received it so they do that just from an efficiency standpoint well yeah it simply doesn't make sense you know if you forty unit subdivision and you've got five units in the first of your fiscal years it won't make economic sense to build all the infrastructure necessary to serve the development just to build and sell those first five units so people save up creeks edge development in northwestern road is a good example i think they're probably four years into their allocation cycle and they only started building just last year but on the opposite side you have let's say a four hundred unit subdivision are nuts of division but approval under this scenario they could literally build all four hundred in one year if they put enough manpower and equipment on the site they could do that it would not be possible for them to purchase enough sewer allocation to do that so this system add some flexibility but sewer allocation and attachment a remain a backstop in fact they become possibly a little more important of a backstop than they are today so you know we looked at a couple of scenarios like that you know what if what if somebody proposed a finny crossing and then they built it all in one year and some reality checks on that in the market wherein we don't think that there are a developer for developers capable of that kind of capacity we don't think the markets capable of a form of absorbing that kind of a build out but most importantly in our growth center where we would have big projects like that there's not another piece of land like the piece of land that finny crossings being built on so there's still significant development capability in the growth center there's a lot of infill residential capability in the growth center but it's twenty and thirty and fifty unit buildings on single parcels it's not if another phinney it's not even another cottonwood at this point  so based on the capability of the market the capability of the development community the capability of the land and that backstop of at some point you're going to run out of sewer allocation to sell every year we think is means that it's not unlimited and the other part is if somebody came in and they got allocation out across ten years for four hundred units and they built four hundred units well now you've got four hundred units and you're not going to get one single one more for ten years and effectively something kind of like that's happening already so phinney pricing was the same way they were fiscal year after year after year when they had allocation and didn't build it and then when there was enough to get going you get that and you get that  implemented growth management and if i remember correctly it was over concerns about how the residential growth was impacting our schools and impacting our ability to provide services primary things like police and fire we know the school situation has changed drastically it would drastically maybe it's not a great work changed there was a time in which we had temporary classrooms there was a time in which we anticipated building the mirror image to the central school i don't hear any talk either bringing back temporary classrooms or building that that mirror image of the school so i guess my question is is has the issue of impacts of residential growth on the town fundamentally changed from when both allocation was first put in into place in there is there a quick answer probably not to why that is so yes i think the fundamental situation has changed that the town has a different level of facilities the demographic mix has changed in the state in even in the county such  that the school population issue is not as much of a concern in fact i think at some point even chittenden county will find itself shoveling against the demographic tide of that aging population and having you know of right of housing types will help to places like willesden you know whether that at the same time you know that adding about a hundred people a year every year or something like that is a nice way for the town to experience growth and be able to you know when do we buy another machine to plow sidewalks when do we need another person on the planning staff that sort of thing so it may not be necessarily about building another big giant building or adding an entire department that we don't have right now but there's there still is a element of wisdom to having a relatively steady rate of growth across that longer timescale and then williston's case there's that limited sewer allocation in the background  that the town really has worked very hard to spend wisely and having a system like this can be of can be a piece of that you know one thing i'll just add to that before yes number two is you know we're talking about some units that would be allocated outside of the growth target so remember an attachment a you have a piece of attachment a budget just to support the growth target well how are we going to support what gets built outside of the growth target well affordable you often have a line item in attachment eighty two to be able to support some construction of affordable i think on terms of that high flyer high scoring it's likely to have my advice would be to do that out of the encourage specific development category the other way we've always thought if somebody really wanted to do something really innovative around a red dental development in williston would be to do a specific plan where you're essentially writing your own zoning district and you could theoretically write yourself out of growth management this kind of just takes that idea and just lays it down and makes it part of the normal course of development review and says here's if you want to build something really really great it well here's what we think that would have to include and what that would look like and i would i would recommend supporting that with some allocation in the encourage specific development and also what that means is use the select board to get the ultimate up down on or the yes no on that really cool interesting high flyer development at the end of the day and that's a good thing i think so i think i think so because it's a big step outside of this sort of long used and carefully considered growth target tool but you know at least for now you know there might come a point where you say you know we don't we don't really want to be the last say on whether a development is built or dot but in truth by by dealing with sewer allocation the way you do sometimes you are my point about that was more along the lines of gross it happened because it makes sense from the town from you know sort of planning you know compliance with the town comprehensive plan goals and sewer should be there to support it not in any way to limit it or to encourage it so i like it when is totally separate from the decisions about whether project scorsone up points to move ahead or not i think it would be better if it was a policy decision at attachment a to say you know we're going to set some out allocation side in case need want to support one of these projects and then to honor the d r v scoring of the project and say well the the folks we appointed to that this think it's think it's good and think it's in line with the complex goals and ultimately to adopt a policy you know says seventy points you might look at these criteria and say i'd be more comfortable if it was an eighty or ninety point project before it got any special consideration and growth management that's it's an easy at it for me to make any developed the build out the build up that still available to be built out you know what still available is much diminished compared to what it was and i'm just trying to get a sense what your opinion is how it has that change in what's left what could be built out or diminishing of what could be built out how does that affect how we should be moving the forward with our bylaws or be changing our buying off well i think i think what's left should always inform that conversation i think two pieces of advice there one being that i think the salvation or the realisation of the town's vision of a design conscious pedestrian friendly downtown at taft corners lies in residential infill because i think that's where the demand will be i don't think you're going to infill taff corners with retail in the next fifty years because i don't think the demand for retail is going to be there and we know the demand for office isn't really there and residential in feels great because it means there's people there and it becomes a quote unquote real place where there's people walking around we're starting to see that in the relationship between finney crossing and maple tree to go down there be thirty on a wednesday night watch places it's really terrific so that's that's sort of i think number one i think number two is to have a really careful informed discussion about residential development in the other sewer service area that's the part of the map if there's any that i look at and i get a little more nervous about and where i think it's really important to have really rigorous criteria because right now we do outside of making sure somebody is competitive in growth management the criteria are not as prescriptive or as rigorous in the zoning we have this large you know the yellow on this map the residential zoning where we basically say it's three per acre and you need to meet the access standards and state lines but there's no building design standards there's an open space standard but there's no quantitative open space requirement  it's one of the looser zoning districts in terms of design requirements ok and so you tend to get what i would call a more market driven design of some of the stuff in there somebody who came in and said i want to be in that part of town in the yellow part town and i want to do this high flyer project they would need to build a project that would look fundamentally different from anything you've seen before and so i would i would say that's the place to really look at the capability is  and just a couple and probably short answers are ok it's ok to get i want to add some specific questions on the policy changes that you're proposing to make so and some of them you have answered but  number one on your memo what's the implication of this allocation certificate and sure that really sure what that means or why you know we can get rid of that and replace it with this other so the bylaw when it was adopted into this appeared that when somebody got allocation they would get a stack of printed certificates like stock certificates each of them could be redeemed with one permit from want to house and it sounded like a really nice symmetrical sort of self regulating self tracking system where we wouldn't have to as administrators keep track of who had built went what in practice everybody lost their certificates we ended up having to remake them from our own files and then charge people to copy it and then take it back and put it in the file it's really administratively at this point simpler for us to just keep track as the staff and follow the terms of the notice of decision  ok i understand so it's just it's an eye housekeeping piece but it was little i also got have to change it there so number a number two on your memo you know use limiting the number and frequency of small exemptions so i looked at those exemptions as a way  small land owner could still build something because when you talk about some of the new criteria you know when you talk with the open space create area which is an old crate area but you know putting in some kind of renewable energy you know adding you know electric car stations the person that's going to build two houses on some property develop a small piece of property can afford or probably can't you know won't do that kind of development and it seems like we still want to enable the small land owner who wants to develop to allow them to develop and not just the mega developer of which we have one or two seem to have developed a huge part of what distance apart so i worry about this you know limiting the number and frequency of small exemptions why would we want to do that why are we trying to limit small landowners and versus the mega landowner or the so the by law today allows for up to four of those exemptions per year for projects that don't meet the minimum score which is thirty points with with very little other restriction and i think what we've experienced is a couple of projects that have either asked for or received all four of those so you you end up with a five unit project in the end when you're right on the parcel before you get allocation that you don't have to get allocation for so you end up with a five unit project on a pretty good sized piece of land the one i'm thinking of came through on about a thirteen acre parcel in the agora and there was a feeling that giving all four to one project wasn't great so this drops it back to no more than two per project so that that your example the person who just wants to do two lots still has access to the exemption i would share a little bit of concern about the parcel size limit that says this is only available to people starting with a parent parcel of ten acres or fewer and if there was concern about this provision i wouldn't be as worried about limiting it to two units per project as i would be about limiting it to projects that start with a parcel smaller than ten acres and i can i can but elaborate on that but you know you want to have some kind of exemption i would say that this system makes it easier for those small projects to score those thirty points than it is project and there's no desire for a trail map on my land and how my supposed to get any points at all and the exemption works that way adding some of those energy efficiency things a small a smaller project could say yeah you know i'm i'm go commit to building really efficient houses or solar panels or or adding power wall batteries and you know it's a little kick to kind of get up over the line and and do that  where you are now that this is going to make it easier install for the small an owner to develop yeah we've created some other ways to achieve points ok you know i've read your criteria it's just a different mix of and i like the the affordable housing kind of exemption right basically if you're going to build a portable yeah you don't fall within the age so is there anything else for affordable that we're promoting well we look at  affordability in three levels so there's stuff that's eighty percent median or below the really really really affordable as far as well it's and concerned you know it's the stuff that's affordable at one hundred percent median down to eighty we also do look at one hundred twenty percent median it was one here you know or you know you know not the most expensive stuff on the other element of affordability is within the growth target and within the growth target for each of these geographic zones twenty five percent of the each of those is set aside only for units that are affordable so we say we're going to today do twelve units a year in the residential zoning district and of those nine are market rate and three have to be affordable so you're if you if you that if the town exposure experiences all eighty units per year being built under this system twenty five percent of them will be affordable at something under one hundred twenty percent media the major increase that you're going to see on the operating budget this year is on the salary line item the vast majority of that line is to pay for an increase of  hundred sixty hours in our substitute library budget and to give a one hour pay raise to substitute library staff what has been happening with our bookmobile in the past is that we have taken two of our regular staff members out of the library during the busiest time of year of june july and august those two staff members are the ones who are  librarian and our outreach library and they're the ones who provide the programs for children during the summer reading program and all of our adult programs so they would have to take in a shift their hours so that they could do the driving on the bookmobile for hours taking them out of the building when they really need he says in the building we wanted to have a substitute staff person who would be hired only for the summer time to drive the bookmobile during that time we did a pilot test of this the friend's library donated the salary of a substitute last year see if it was a pilot that would be worth us looking into for the regular operating budget and the answer was yes it was much better when you have literally programs where you're trying to put thousands of people through programs over the course of two months you need to have our staff in the building so that would pay for the substitute to drive the bookmobile the one dollar a pay raise is to bring us library and filling in for a short term leave for somebody even in waterbury so they're there troll so traveling south in order to make part time work on these positions the next line item that you're in to see some increases in the look of the larger than normal is for training there is a national conference it's coming to burlington which focuses on smaller rural libraries the friends of the library are donating half of the cost for staff to attend the other half were asking to come out of the operating budget it's a three day conference we would send every person for one day so that we would be closing the library for any of that  time also looking at a three thousand dollar increase in the collections most of that would go to actual materials we're finding that the more digital materials we offer the higher the rate of usage for that most of it would go toward video and audio materials and we're also looking at an increase in our maintenance line in order to have our back system cleaned the duct work has not been cleaned since the buildings eighty think we can have them cleaned in sections so one third of a building at a time at roughly two thousand dollars a year some sections are a little bigger than other sections it can be done over the course  weekend evenings so that the library doesn't need to be closed and in the course of a three year we can have the entire buildings docks clique so those are the highlights if we were to go line  by line you'll see that a lot of the lines are otherwise even or even decreased a little like to go through each single good list the board has questions about i don't think so so so just on the salaries the seventeen thousand increase approximately between one thousand and proved and twenty requested that's the bookmobile the vast majority that is an increase for the bookmobile and that the one dollar an hour pay raise was it was a pledge as to what is a dollar an hour pay raise get right now it's twelve fifty an hour for substitute staff this would bring it up to thirteen fifty is that what you mean yeah thank you eighteen library shelving this is then on your mark on the budget for a number of years i've got enough a final updated number cost of metal has changed over the last five years or so since the original estimate was done we also realize that we really would like to be able to put castors on these units so that they can be moved around and be more really usable in other  spaces it makes the makes it the flex of the shelving much more flexible we get it potentially move like one section to another half of the building very easily if we wanted to so this particular shelving would replace our existing d v d shelving with pull out drawers it would make the the space much more efficiently used so much higher capacity in a much lower footprint smaller footprint and lower site lines so that opens up the si of the building the bins they'll be used for d v d s d v d s are changing you know technology and they it is something that can be used for other things you can remove the individual drawers if you wanted to  place them replace them with static shelves and still use the surrounding terrain and casters so it's a very flexible units that's twenty two thousand two hundred fifty dollars age seventy two is the more ready just in that one item so that on that page page eighteen it shows twenty two thousand and the other twenty two of that's the fun balance that comes from fund balance so the total is forty four five for that that's a little confusing i'm sorry that's not that's my i think that somebody else might have done that part so it's a total of twenty two thousand two hundred fifty oh yes yes ok so the forty four  page seventy two this is the land of savings for replacement of the bookmobile we've been setting aside seven thousand five hundred dollars so that we can essentially quote pay cash which as you think i you know i recently got the oils changed and everything in it it's not this is not the amount of mileage that goes onto the time it's that you know it's the time on the generator and other thing i know because if we do drive very short we could probably do operating budget on both of those and do the capital budget after that the things books are still here it comes right on time we're ready for operating church to is this year i'm assuming we're going to varieties and equipment in there and start getting money for that so they don't have to take them a sting out of this budget even though it's not very big budget anyway  has used it in the past for a small number of things and would like to do more with that building in one thousand nine hundred six at the post office well that's behind where the post office used to be certain that you know the school is not using anymore maybe emptied out most of their stuff so it's sitting over there basically empty at this point it's either that it's heated has water it does not have hot water would like to keep adding ten thousand to every year just to keep it up there this past year for the first year i guess that i can ever remember doing i actually postponed pay being in the form that was going to get done with the hopes that the asphalt prices are going to be back down in the spring time because we have we put our budget out we have a formula goes with that it says it's a liquid add for liquid asphalt cost rises more than five percent of the time in a bid the day can add on to our bid price and it rose quite well this year so we put off two or three major painting jobs that we're hoping the liquid asphalt craze goes down which it historically does over the winter he would do those in the spring in the on the ten thousand that's not to do more paving it's just that covers the increase in costs of the  we would go out to bid when we put our paving bits out that's why it's in your budget instead of what was at the parks budget me i take care of recreation par newer newer equipment things don't cost increase still do happen just to keep up with stuff so that's what that one's about benefits and this is like half of the salary amount or benefits at a salary of one hundred ninety one dollars and you have almost one hundred thousand in benefits cost my correct well it's i guess if i look at the proportions if i look at last year the benefits were basically a little more than fifty percent of the salary cost this year they're on the twenty foot for a full year twenty for fiscal year twenty is because a little less than fifty percent right is that true no no there's still more than fifty percent  saying they're not requesting the benefits so that we don't have well i mean i some there's there's some compensation they received for not participating in that in the plan but it wasn't the same as the cost of the plan for this scenario says hopefully this is a quick question bruce i'm looking at the third bullet of your letter of transmittal or talks about consolidating the budget and i guess it is piers to me it's still separated between and bruce is letter transmittal versus what i'm seeing in the budget does that make sense because the bottom line is quite literally the line and that's you know me in my i'm not a finance person you've probably heard me say that it means near so i tend to go more towards the bottom line that's what helps me the unusual expenses but i think i had pages nineteen and twenty four  have a contractor come in and go through that building with me to look at it and develop a plan you know that's what does she does some some of the things we're talking about replacing some of the and now that's right on the edge of the storm water pondered to school built not a functioning out house because that's what it was but to talk and talk about moving out out and putting in a different location over there public works i had twenty seven through thirty one and forty five through fifty one excuse me ok twenty seven is the industrial avenue bridge gets inspected for is by the state a couple years ago we put a new desk on that bridge but we need to get the  steel underneath painted so that's what that's what this is for and this is an estimate that i got from one of the two bridge p do that and we will put in four yeah money from the trance to help offset the cost money broke over it on page twenty eight is the large covert time we put a temporary bridge on that is still in a process of beings designed while coming up with the out one alternative to use those monies to keep that moving forward so we can get to the point of replacing that with whatever the structure is it's deemed to be the right one but surely that will require a b six it's a one point six one point seven million project probably ok that would be our share of the bad guys who after all are grants and everything we can to offset that and south burlington has been working diligently on that as well twenty nine is just a placeholder it's to do something to the parking lot out back but there's no money in it for this year this is something actually i what they came up with in their designs i don't see how you can make it much better what they've come up with is there any issues with the armory or how we share with the armory and they show where there are some issues i had a meeting with them recently on a host of different things and this is one of the issues i brought up and i think it's just a matter of communicating back and forth you know for example they had a couple been a weekend if they're having a big exercise or something there's no reason why they can't park here so it's just a matter of communicating them and if they have some major event that they're sponsoring during that week then they need to let us know so we can impact fees cannot be used to pay for services because it's about the structure ok good thank you for pointing that out thirty one is just money to one hundred ten thousand dollars is to go into a fund for the next trucker to buy so it goes into a fund in when's the next we will use that this year you will hear more on the equipment and actually we have the excavator coming up in two thousand and twenty which is a fairly large pieces so when you say this this defines the rotation so the years shown and the equipment shown those of the year you're buying that particular equipment that's what that is correct this is subject to change every year based on this is just the projection ok just think i see the sidewalk plow there which may have to doesn't anticipate too yet does it we pick up replacements page forty seven and that's just exactly what it is to replace the pickups that we use their fleet but i would recommend to kind of useless what kind of can you explain why why it would be useless by the time by the time you get around a pound of sidewalks are going to be all trampled down as things are going to be freezing it's going to be harder to move the snow highway is in here plowing snow including the foreman who's in a plow truck who in my opinion would be much better off being in his four poor by four pickup truck going around helping the guys and making sure that the jobs are getting done right around and be one of the people that are out there in a truck so i mean i would tell you that we were really at some point it would be nice to have one more person and we need a plow piece of plywood and that way to somebody sick  whenever you have something to put in there the guys just want to put a plug in here the first couple storms in november just so you know and you know we were down to four and five trucks sometimes sometimes four trucks where we're normally doing seven and we should i believe we just found out their cost is fifteen thousand dollars or match to that it's a couple thousand so this is actually going to change a little bit but it's not recently s ad that that intersection upgrades it's kind of you know we say intersection upgrades what it really is is our equipment in our later dinner sessions is getting quite old antiquated we can't do some of the things that are being done today because of the equipment and  controllers fifty one is our portable traffic signals we got half of this money last year this is just to get the other half we can stop having flaggers put more people to work certain projects and that's it but there is an addition there oh there's a couple at the top too and some of the items are hear me leave not because the they have much of an impact but resigned there's certain policy issues for example line pay a big sum of money is to pay a small amount each year as a lease and with the understanding that we will be paying for any more improvements to the building so i  run they are a concept by me some church officials they seem interested in talking about it and something i want to highlight that is an issue here because i believe somewhere in the budget balance yes it's not a board one when the replace the two ok but when i had i'm sorry just myself fire apparatus replacement i thought that might be more the equipment that they need to purchase on you know for the some discussion that after we get through the next meeting and start to look at what we want to do this our justice if anything in the point i want to make is if it any point as we go through a budget or something that you want to come back to talk about consider cutting just let us know at the time so we can add to this  ean i mean maybe it's it's probably obvious but if i look through the list i see the top you have my department the bot of me to say capital you don't show by what department i guess maybe m north of that you'll find this big white school bus that the school house drive goes around it has a driver that goes into it and i just sits there and i just don't know where they want to take a look at it and ministration salaries and benefits under fire is that for the position that ken was advocating for which is army national fire marshal fire inspector guy yes person it's ok and benefits it's also part of that's what i for all the benefits for that one individual wow patients for the position we've narrowed it down to about ten and we're trying to further narrow that down to about six we should be doing finishing that tomorrow going to be doing  some sure telephone interviews with the about five people for four people tomorrow and that and after that will narrow it down to about six and then we medicare which is very much appreciated we also appreciate all the work she's doing at these meetings and she was in all day yesterday at the same time doing another full time job  and trying to have a family life on top of that so we are very appreciative of that we are compensating yes but it isn't this one of those things where it's like you either do that well listen job you're your new job believe joy just want to hear it to participate in that part of the interview process so that will be hopefully later in january we get this guy which is according to the original schedule etc so we're on schedule so far