one two three four five four five six seven eight one two three four five six seven eight twenty three  good morning this hearing has now come to order i'd like to welcome our witnesses here this morning all of you prepared some very interesting testimony which is going to be important to the subcommittee members and we look forward to hearing from hearing from you because of time constraints we're going to dispense with our opening statements so that we can hear from you gentleman we think that we're going to have votes probably around ten thirty and we would like to get in your written test or your formal testimony before we go to questions i would like to do some quick introductions we mr john marshall who's testifying as a member of the aerospace safety advisory panel or the ace that we have dr can afford the chairman of the nasa advisory council we have mr robert hannah see who is the chairman of the next audit and finance committee a the chairman of the aeronautics and space engineering board and dr varian moore who is testifying as a member of the space studies board of the national academies and finally we have mr stevens who is vice president of space systems at the aerospace industries association these are incredible set of witnesses very important for the congress as we are truly at a crossroads our country in terms of nasa's future and we're looking forward to hearing  because i know time is important and i think it's it should be normal that we listen to them before they have to listen to us but that's not the way it works here but we're going to get to do that and you think this chairwoman for that a great panel and if there's ever a what he was up with the final paper but you know back not to thank you thank you mr hall as our witnesses know you each have five minutes for your spoken testimony a written testimony will be included into the record for the hearing and when you completed your spoken testimony will begin questions each member will have five minutes to question the panel and we're going to begin with mr hall mr marson i'm how d his place today you asked us to comment on six pacific areas and so let me go right to those the first was to identify top priorities in upcoming multi year nasa nasa authorization without question from perspective the top priority for this agency is the need to have and maintain a stable and sufficient budget that allows nasa to safely execute an integrated space program safety can be an unintended victim of reduced spending if we're not careful that should not be allowed to happen to this agency next an air of a couple decision regarding expense extending this space shuttle program needs to be made quickly if the decision is made to extend the shuttle and that decision must be accompanied with necessary resources without additional budget allocation all the responsible parties must realize that such an action will seriously constrain available resources for the development of any follow on program and will only shift in may actually expand the gap in america's flight capabilities this clearly will expose nasa to the risk of another shuttle loss and may jeopardize the future of the u s space exploration program the next priority is to ensure that cost schedule and the required performances are properly in balance with each other feel strongly that the imbalance of any of these key elements will lead to substantial increase in risk you next asked us to identify critical issues facing nasa we believe that there must be a reaffirmation or redefinition of a set course for the exploration mission hopefully the augustine blue ribbon panel will do much of this even without a change the conclusion that the recent budget cut of over five hundred million dollars makes the current schedule for the exploration program an executable third you asked us to discuss nasa compliance with cabe recommendations as you know in the return to flight task group completed its work in two thousand and five it determined that nasa had met the intent of all but three recommendation the asap is pleased with the nasa is overall response to the cape recommendation yet believes the risk associated with the remaining issues cannot be completely eliminated without major redesign of the shuttle accordingly the asap recommends that nasa use its formal risk acceptance process to make a decision on how to close out the remaining actions the cable also reminded recommended recertification of the shuttle if it is to fly beyond two thousand and ten concurs with the need for recertification if a significant extension of the current program is directed this said nasa has not yet developed an action plan to accomplish this next you ask us to discuss nasa as incorporation of safety design of new crude transportation system the asap has reviewed arayan aires developments thus far and we agree that the issues that have been identified to date are properly being addressed issues that have come up like vibration and potential tower strikes have been or are being thoroughly investigated nasa's role in the cops program thus far has been to not directly level levy nassar restricting requirements while we endorse and support investing in the cops program we believe  this junction that nasa needs to take a more aggressive role articulating human rating requirements for the cops program since many new commercial vehicles are already under development to do so at an a later date pressure nasa into accepting a system for expediency that is below its normal standard for safety you also asked us to discuss nasa's progress in instilling safety into the agency believes that nasa has continued to improve its awareness and development of a positive safety culture however we also believe that more attention is required in the following areas implement a more robust incident invest investigation process develop a standardized way to proactively measure the safety culture at its center and improve the current technical standards program to better capture and apply hard won lessons learned and best practices finally you asked us to discuss other matters that merit attention we believe that the administration congress and nasa all need to be transparent with the public on risk communication that losses may occur in space exploration and the risk of this should be mutually shouldered the national message on the state on the space program needs to be that we're going to do it thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the top priorities and challenges facing nasa i have submitted my complete testimony for the record but today i would like to identify and discuss what i believe to be three of the highest priorities for your consideration during this potentially pivotal moment in our nation's space program choices and decisions must be made that will determine what we can and cannot accomplish in space for the next forty years the three priorities include developing a capable and flexible space transportation architecture the need to re establish a robust technology r and d program and the need for stability of purpose policy and funding in the few minutes i have i will address each of these in turn is very likely that the space transportation system now under development will serve the nation for the next thirty to fifty years we need to get it right this will be the spaceflight architecture that takes americans beyond low earth orbit back to the moon earth objects and on to mars the key element in the exploration architecture is the development of a heavy lift launch vehicle i urge congress to accelerate and prioritize development of this capability as it is the linchpin to everything we will do in human spaceflight beyond low earth orbit accelerated development of a heavy lift launch vehicle would also help with retaining a skilled workforce both in production and in the processing that takes place at kennedy space center the plan has been to apply the work for coming off shuttle to development of the shuttle derived heavy lift aries five assuming that the international space station is to be extended beyond twenty fifteen serious thought must be given to the means of support for both cargo and crew the current space transportation architecture is intended to provide government furnished crew access to the international space station as nasa has clearly stated from the outset if commercial crew access materializes nasa will utilize that service of a commercial cargo transport may be available soon or it seems unlikely that commercial crew transport to the international space station will be available before twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen and even then only with a substantial infusion of additional government funding that said unless the constellation program is funded at or above the two thousand and ten budget request it seems equally unlikely that aries one will be available before two thousand and sixteen or perhaps even early two thousand and seventeen in fact the latest house markup would likely further increase the gap in the u s government provided access to space to the point where aries one support of the international space station may become irrelevant unless operation of the space station is extended well into the future nasa has long enjoyed a reputation as a technology innovator who stretching stressing applications in space and aeronaut except have led to an incredible range of broadly useful technologies several years ago the decision was made to divert a large fraction of agency's technology investment into the constellation program with the goal of maintaining an early initial operational capability unfortunately technology research programs are easily stopped and terribly hard to restart in a time of constrained budgets it will take strong in effect of leadership at the agency and by congress to reestablish nasa as a technology leader a large part of the public's strong support for nasa derives from the perception that nasa is a driver of innovation and technology space exploration is an inherently challenging and rewarding endeavor stability and planning requirements budgets and programatic execution are essential for successful mission accomplishment the current u s space policy is the best one we have had for a very long time it needs existing commitments and then puts nasa on a new path in an orderly disciplined manner the policy strategy was strongly supported by both the two thousand and five and two thousand and eight nasa authorization act in both a republican and democratic congress it is nasa's job to implement that policy in my view the most important factor and asked is future success will be stability and purpose strategy requirements and funding if our nation's leadership cannot provide that stability nasa's efforts to implement the nation's space policy will cost more and accomplish less in most days there is very little among the thousands of items filling the twenty four hour news cycle that will be regarded as important and noteworthy in five hundred years however the accomplishments of this agency of the united states government are munk the few human activities that will be regarded as having mattered and been important and will be looked upon with admiration centuries hence they will marvel at the courage curiosity and audacity of the people who put the first human footprint on a planet other than their own who sent robotic ambassadors deep into the solar system not to conquer or for financial gain but just to know they will wonder if they could measure up to such people i look back at the apollo era and wonder the same thing and hope that our generation will also be included as worthy of their admiration we will not have to wait five hundred years to know the answer we now at a critical juncture in the future of u s human spaceflight i'll be happy to respond to any questions you or other members of the committee might have thank you dr for a very moving comment thank you  madam chairman and members of the subcommittee good morning and thank you for the opportunity to appear today to discuss the nasa advisory councils key findings and observations related to nasa's financial management activities i will also touch briefly on the perception of a political ration of conflicting earned value management approaches within the agency the fact that nasa has been plagued with financial problems for several decades is well documented in  hundred the general accountability office place nasa on its high risk lest and in two thousand and five the g a o issued a report in which it listed forty five recommendations aimed at improving nasa's overall management a separate report the inspector general noted that the agency's problems were rooted in historic culture to at nasa centers operated with a high degree of autonomy across nasa there were  different accounting systems with one hundred twenty subsystems a very significant result of this accounting anarchy was a legacy of unreliable historic data and that headquarters accounting  inadequately trained in two thousand well before the g a o report nasa attempted to consolidated these disparate accounting systems into a new overarching control system the integrated enterprise management plan and two years later installed a commercially available core accounting system both of these new control systems brought forth a host of new problems that would take years and multiple software patches to fix in two thousand and six the headquarters c f o's office prepared a corrective action plan to address the noted deficiencies and specifically to remediate the for material weaknesses and one reportable condition cited in both the two thousand and three and two thousand and four external audit reports those deficiencies were financial systems analysis and oversight property accounting funds balance with treasury general controls and estimating environmental liabilities even though the agency's external auditors continued to disclaim an opinion through it including two thousand and eight the continued hard work of the agency's headquarters and center finance staffs has y results in two thousand and five the number of material weaknesses dropped to three and in two thousand and six to only two and the reportable condition for environmental liabilities dropped off the left in the two thousand and eight audit report ernst and young stated that quote significant progress has been made unquote even though they again issued a disclaimer citing the remaining two material weaknesses financial systems and property accounting with several software patches to the core accounting system a more stable better trained accounting staff and the cooperative spirit of the center's we believe that the first of these two material weaknesses is close to earning a passing grade the intractable problem is property accounting particularly as it relates to legacy assets space travel in the international space station the external lot of the infirm has stated that the agency cannot earn a clean opinion until this accounting data cleaned up the i g has a pi and that the cost to go back and recreate a set of data that would be audible is too high to justify other than running out the clock on shuttle and space station the only way off the horns of this dilemma would be a change in accounting interpretation from the financial accounting standards advisory board permitting the agency to write off these assets as research and development if this accounting change comes forth the door will be open for nasa to merit and improve audit opinion now to concerns about potential political ration of conflicting management systems within nasa under the leadership of the chief engineers office and the current value management working group was created in partnership with the constellation program with the objective of developing an agency y d v m system to be offered to all mission and centers for a single adoption the n audit and finance committee suggested at the october two thousand and eight nack meeting that the single solution being developed by the working group be adopted agency wide since the office of chief engineer and the urn value management working group were already headed in that direction no formal night recommendation was made at that time in conclusion the audit and finance committee would like the subcommittee to know that when nasa earns an unqualified audit opinion hopefully within the next two years that the credit will belong to the hard working accounting personnel at headquarters and centers a specific test tip of the hat is due to terry boyd deputy head quarters o who is largely responsible for the progress that the agency has achieved we also have a high degree of confidence in new headquarters c f o ron scale nasa now has a great financial team in place to address the problems and th concentrate and focus my remarks here on a concern over the general lack of attention being paid by nasa to technology development as a priority mission area because of budget pressures nasa has largely backed away from the development of space to technology as a mission once the decision was made to focus research and technology specifically on major development program needs by moving the resources to missionaries it intended to serve it became near term oriented as risk reduction back stopping the hardware development that isn't to say of course that there isn't good technology coming from space science and exploration driven by no one program needs but that's not the opportunity driven type of research and technology development that i believe nasa needs to pursue and has pursued in in the past that is long term research driven and defined by anticipating what future program managers will need well in front of requirements and broad in scope supporting civil space not just nasa and commercial space nasa has inspired us with bold missions and spectacular accomplishment and it needs to be investing in technology that continually seeks to transform the state of the art capabilities and enable picture missions that someday we know we will want to do if we only know nasa should revitalize advance space technology development has a priority mission area the agency it should engage the best science and engineering talent in the country wherever it resides in universities industry nasa center's other government labs focused on world class research and innovation and not driven by the need to maintain core competencies at the nasa centers it should support not only future nasa missions but other government agencies and commercial space so its customers are very similar to the broad scope of customers that  search in this year's request environment mentally responsible aviation program bills on the progress of the basic program and begins to address complex systems  interactions accompanying the integration of technology to achieve lower fuel consumption lower emissions lower noise improved safety and greater air traffic system capacity all extremely important to our country economically and in moving goods and services across the country and the bottom line i would say  my concern is that there are sufficient resources not only for technology development in space and aeronautics but the agency has insufficient resources to accomplish what they and i think the kick specter of them i've looked good in every time i have looked at the the resources against the program that nasa has is has on the books right now i'm led to the conclusion that they need to approximately twenty two to twenty three billion dollars to accomplish what's before them and i think that is it with that amount that would compete reasonably well in discretionary resource expenditures of the country i look forward to answering any questions you might have later when we get to members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to appear today on behalf of the space studies board of the national research council chaired by dr charlie kandel he regrets that he could not be here to provide testimony in this verbal presentation let me turn directly to your questions first what are the top priorities and issues that the house committee on science and technology should consider in the upcoming multi year nasa authorization legislation in a word balance the convergence of pressures could significantly destabilize the overall program a mug's these pressures are to complete and utilize the international space station to retire and replace the shuttle to find a rational and to execute a healthy science program including meeting the side to the challenges of climate change and finally to restore and realize a healthy aeronautics program all of these pressures gather in an overall nasa press work of ten healthy senators and o m b two thousand and eleven level guidance on budget reductions all of this strikes me reflecting my mathematical background as an overdetermined problem it cannot all be done what will give and how it will give is the central challenge facing the house committee on science and technology and facing us all second what are my perspectives on the key challenges and opportunities for space science and to what extent does the two thousand and ten budget to address that the two thousand and ten budget is a significant improvement on f y two thousand and nine but we face real challenges we simply must do more with less and or do less with what is available to concentrate the resources we need to reduce the cost of doing business fewer matter just fewer managers managing managers we need to utilize innovative ideas  significant lower cost to obtain the needed observations for instance use alternative platforms like autonomous aircraft or high altitude long state dirigibles use smaller spacecraft and simpler instruments of void the perfect being the enemy of the good the opportunity is that with change and challenge we might find a new path that leads to a greater a greater net good by doing business differently but without a stick no smoke and mirrors no cute phrases but do it honestly and with simplicity third what are my perspective perspectives on nasa's plans and budgetary outlook for excel writing the implementation of earth science the kadal missions including the use of the recovery act funds unfortunately as my written testimony details the best we can hope for is that the delays will be minimized almost all of the monies to pay for increased cost in the predicted a mission eleven and subsequent increases on top of this new base would have provided the necessary profile to execute the decayed missions and i'd like to cause call the subcommittees attention to figure one in my written testimony simply stated that the hole that was dug for earth science between two thousand and two thousand and six is simply too deep to crawl out of it needs a strategic fix fourth one of my perspectives on cost growth and schedule slip since  iness space science and earth science programs and their applications and masses approach to mitigating future occurrences i fear that the fixes are too little and too late we need to have the courage political and otherwise to terminate programs that grow excessively but first we need to avoid these programs to start with i believe that with a vigorous prepays a that is significant upfront monies for all of the missions that that is essential then it's a technical base is not clearly in hand and very realistic budgets available and agreed to if those pieces are not there then the mission is parked until it is ready to start we must avoid doing something or quicksand or even send itself we need a granite foundation preferably from new hampshire reflecting my previous life are there any other matters that the attention there to now says monies must be multi year on the commitment side to go to a one year commitment process i think would not be wise and finally we have there needs to be some consideration on the reduction in the number of nasa centers the same could apply for national thank you chairman chairwoman giffords ranking member also members of the committee i really appreciate the opportunity to testify before you today the largest aerospace association in the united states we represent nearly three hundred manufacturers over six hundred sixty thousand highly skilled jobs and we and directly support over two million middle class jobs and thirty thousand suppliers from all fifty states our member companies also routinely post the nation's largest manufacturing trade surplus we appreciate the  congress to keep the u s space exploration policy on schedule this policy remains essential to reducing the u s human spaceflight gap between the retirement of shuttle and the launch of aries one and a ryan nasa science directive provides us a better understanding of our earth and universe and nasa is aeronautics research development projects are crucial to the completion of the next generation air transportation system additionally nasa is endeavour's remain an inspiration for you to enter our workforce we strongly support the current proposed nasa budget of eighteen point seven billion however we are concerned about the out years which are completely flat through two thousand and thirteen in addition to ensuring stable and robust funding we make the following observations and recommendations in the area of expirations we believe the current policy should be given the support it is needed to keep on schedule over the past five years the constellation program is moved forward and a great deal of progress has been made just now bending metal is conducting critical tests and h produced many jobs that are not only shovel ready they're also brain ready while we're pleased with consolation we're concerned about a couple of other programs a budget request only provides twenty five million dollars a year for aries five zero funding for the lunar lander without moon forward on these vehicles nasa and industry run the risk of losing thousands of jobs forever another important element to our space exploration policy is the international space station which is almost complete and could be conducting possibly groundbreaking research in the very near future you also provide valuable lessons for our future voyages as it functions must like a test lunar outpost or a test longer a space station is a prop importantly the international space station is a prime example of international cooperation in space we urge the committee to maintain the international space station at least two thousand and twenty without taking away from other critical nasa programs we also recommend congress to get to new support use as a commercial launch services and on orbit services to the international space station when they are available in the area of nasa science and earth observations program we believe nasa science mission directorate is doing important work given the current concerns about global climate change healthy science program provides valuable information about the cosmos and nasa earth nasa science and climate change research and developmental programs provide with operational weather and climate monitoring satellites we ask congress to provide stable funding is required to sustain these in our next generation systems in regards to aeronautics believes that next gen is critical to continuing the decrease in the environment impact of aviation innovative engine design airframes avionics and materials have resulted in a seventy five percent reduction in noise and a seventy percent improvement in civil aviation fuel efficiency these advances spurred by nasa funded r and d brought the aerospace industry is a long way in the mission directorate has been responsible for safety and of efficiency it initiatives have saved countless lives before their like to address is workforce a member companies are investing an average of ten million dollars a year on stem education including team of erica rocketry challenge which is the largest rocket contest in the world despite the opportunities nasa has education program spire to inspire disappointed with the president's request competition from providers who all benefit from some sort of government indemnification has grown significantly believe that elimination of u s government indemnification would drive even more launch business overseas we recommend congress remove the current future nasa stands front and center as a most visible representation of the u s space program its continued work deserves a support from this committee and congress i think the committee for their time and attention and i w question thank you mr stevens and thank all of a very diverse group of witnesses but there is one common thread which is competence and also commitment it's always tough here in the congress where you take experts who have dedicated their careers  a certain area of interest and then to limit testimony to five minutes and then even cut that a little bit short but we are glad that you're here and in particular panels on which you are voluntary and the fact that with all the competing demands that you have on your time that you and your colleagues are willing and able to commit the time is vitally important to our nation and it's something that the subcommittee plans to continue to utilize your expertise and your dedication to the obviously admirers of you all and human spaceflight and we recognize that my district which is we consider in my district the birthplace of human space flight of alabama nasa has done all it can to minimize the human spaceflight gap with its current budgetary constraints and mission requirements and the second part of that is do we have an inventory of  i'll take it the yes i do think that nasa has done all that it can do given the budget environment that they work in to eliminate or shorten the gap as much as possible there's going to be a gap but i think they've done all they could reasonable be asked to do in terms of an inventory of space scientists and rocket scientists i presume i'm not sure if there is such a thing i do know the folks that worked on earlier programs including apollo are engaged in it buys enough with respect to aries one and five let me add from a safety perspective i also agree that from a safety point of view they've done everything that they can with the resources that they have to minimize the gap there's no question that there is a gap it's a lengthy gap it appears to be getting bigger not smaller but there's only so much that you can do with the resources that have been allocated the second issues work workforce management i will take a little bit of a different stance i think that we have work to do the agency has work to do to capitalize catalog and make sure that there is clear understanding of where those resources will be available if they need to be at a later date while we think that the agency has done a great job of putting time and effort into their we also think from a safety perspective that there's more work to be done if the shuttle program where to be extended or expanded generally to the panel do we do we as a nation believe that the chinese would like to get to the moon before we do  and if so do we believe as a nation that they're working diligently to do that anyone like to take that one i'll go and take it  believe they definitely are and i think if you take a look at their progress so far and compare it to what we did in the gemini and apollo missions they're making significant progress and they're using technology obviously a lot better than we had back in those days and i think their goal set on that and i think if we don't move along fund beyond our human space program we are going to be watching them land for us i couldn't agree more and i think that the our our committee and those in the audience our worst nightmare is to be home in our living room watching the evening news and as the landing occurs it occurs to everyone in the world that it's chinese and not america and we have an opportunity here but we but we have got to we've got to keep ourselves focused and we've got to realize we cannot do this on the cheap this is not something we can do in an inexpensive way but we  every one of you for being here thank you thank you very much better chairwoman and got a question sort of like my colleague with the graph is this for all the answer but later today you heard the buzzers but we're going to expect it to pass the f i one zero appropriations bill for nasa and as you all know that proposes to cut funding six hundred and seventy million dollars for the constellation program and the sponsors of the bill we've had numerous discussions with them and i appreciate that your woman's role in that as well they're going to they promised that the work to restore that funding pending the decision of the augustine commission and my concern there and what i'd like to get your opinion on from a program perspective what management challenges this approach impose on the program to contractors and can we avoid layoffs if the report comes out in the september october timeframe and a lot of what's the far  i think it's very unfortunate and is likely to indeed lead to layoffs the exact number is unclear i would hope that that that provision would not stick but if it did it would be problematic also the language about one when your money is highly problematic let me ask marsha go ahead so let me add again from a safety perspective when you see  turbulence within the budget process that creates an on again off again it always creates a threat to the safety stability we've seen that in numerous programs before we've documented that repeatedly and this particular cut we believe will have significant consequences to the agency and being able to stabilize and in fact if there was any one scene that i heard from this panel this morning it was the need to stabilize to balance and t provide financial support ability to be able to do all of those things and i just can't right  caused in the workforce and by schedules being disrupted by reductions when when there is not there aren't enough resources in the first place to do what i think is  bad idea absolutely i think that's essential to get i agree with that and with that those are all my questions madam chair about like the the rest of my time like colleague from california mr rohrabacher thank you very much and  i just like to pose a question that i will be coming back at one thirty and i would give you this time to think about it and then the answer when i get back because it's very simple when we're trying to figure out what to do with the nasa budget it's always very easy to come in and say well we are lacking this much money we have three billion dollars short of what we need maybe you can give us some specific guidance what are your areas in the nasa budget that are of highest priority to you what are your areas of the nasa budget are the least priority and i would expect the answer to both of those questions because it's very easy to say what you want to spend the money on but where should we look what areas of the guidance on both of those issues and if you could give me a very quick answer when we return that would be very helpful to us thank you very much thank you mr rohrabacher and ranking member olson we have two minutes and twenty three seconds left to vote so we're going to run out of here we're going to recess until one thirty and we look forward to the members rejoining and our witnesses as well so until one thirty