have been motivated to you is secure passage is a carrier because it's a pharmaceutical except of all substance that's water soluble and it's the appropriate size and therefore it meets the definition of what a carrier would ok then i could figure out with appropriate particle size would be right i mean just i understand that you don't agree with that assumption and that it there might not even be record evidence to support it but assuming for a minute that i the reason why we believe whether you analyze it as an error of law or whether the finding of factual findings were clear clearly erroneous that this finding it referred to again this four four three reference reference that discloses interactive mixtures that don't have citric acid at all now this finding other general supported by the record not just by dr dyer but by the prior art references and so here's the way it went in summary and i'm happy to point you to specific references there was art about interactive mixtures or combination the problem i'm having is one where i i understand you're saying you know it would have been obvious having an interactive mixture and would have been obvious that you'd want to have citric acid and my stumbling you address my just technical question and owing to your question first which is yes technically it could be in as micro nice or some other form than as a carrier particle we believe it's taught that it should be a carrier particle in this instance because an interactive mixture they are strongly teaches use of an interactive mixture of interactive mixers must have carrier particles citric acid is taught to be used with  expected to improve biovail ability that's what the interactive mixture are taught and it talked that specifically about you from morphine and the locks on the combinations that you should use them in an interactive mixture in order no piece of prior are there that was presented that says citric acid is a carrier particle or should be used as a carrier particle but i don't believe that's required under the law we're not required to have a document teaches that you may carry purpose moreover the art teachers for insists the four for three patten that you're not limited to one here your particle or any number of carry particles for instance the four four three patent teaches multiple carrier particles can be used in this interactive mixture so the idea that because we know in the art that particular substances were used this theory of particles doesn't mean that citric acid would not also be appropriate as a there would be i'll be more specific about six six eight four and i can give you the lines for twenty seven page for twenty seven within particles you want your articles because that's what makes it interactive make sure you look at suboxone and it provides ingrid ians you want to use those ingredients because you know how they work together and specifically you want to use  there i mean if it's so if both of those things are really well known then one would think if citric acid were routinely or it was obvious to use that as a carer particle you could have found some reference t aren't your your expert didn't even testified that he was familiar with this industry and that citric acid was routinely used as a carrier particle in our app to make sure he just said it's the right size and it could be used that well i mean there's no single prior art reference that talks about such a passage as a cure or a particle and if it would then so obvious to use it that way you would think you would have found something that well the fact that citric acid has never been used as a carrier particle i would submit it does not acid and then you said that the definition of carrier particle is a problem your honor it and it's because this is a structural ranchman this is not an interactive arrange the way you may have issues in some pharmaceutical cases where there's concern about how things interact in the human body and what might happen in unpredictability there's nothing in the interactive makes your heart about that interactive makes your heart simply says that if you're an appropriate size and your water soluble and your pharmaceutical acceptable it will work as a carrier particle and given that you want to have more than one carrier particle modifier and as a carrier and obviousness case your honor serves there there are going to be or frequently it's the case that there are situations where there isn't a portion or  combination that has never existed before and so you have to rely on for instance testimony in order to make your case we're not required to have eight documents that says every aspect of the invention what we're required to do it shows that there would have been a motivation to combine which i think the record does show and that combination had recently expectation of success and we've also got testimony to that effect just  carrier particle it interacted mixture in the matter that the inventors used it in fact if you look at what the interactive lecture are use they use other materials that were in the when the inventors decided to choose citric acid as a carrier particle and doing that resulted in a surprising result that's all i have