in this case numbers one through three were fox but at that point system jumped the rails and that's when the director of police this  then the secretary of the director of we set a staff and part of the staff meeting two of these people who are on the promotional board sit in the staff meeting and basically doing about face from what they found while sitting on the promotional work they found that mr campbell was the second of all five guy these two members of the most vocal work are sitting in the congress room with the director of police and they're saying as if we accepted that argument it seems to me from reading your brief and basically what you're arguing today is that the senior staff should have no discretion  yes the short answer to that is yes the longer answer is that that's the way the statute regulations that set up i think it's fundamentally unfair and proper for the fundamentally unfair to make up let me ask you this when you're making an appointment to hire somebody and you don't get the veterans preference or they take the exam and all those things are settled it seems to me that that's a different process than making a decision of who should be helpful to the director to have the applications filtered by their qualifications on paper so in other words it seemed to me the prevalent personnel was saying here i wouldn't you require that the statute have a d that says in the person who scores the highest on this testing shall be limited to the position well your i find it interesting that that the indicate that the person who scores the highest on the testee in application procedure it doesn't say that that person has to be the one for you know that there goes it does not say that but i think i think  the system is set up if the director of personnel is the person who makes the session then these meetings in the command centers conference room where people are allowed secretary of state is there is this merit system and the director is you correct it is on the seizures on top of it to me it's it's just crystal clear but i guess that's why we're here service and here's what he said was i think it's absolutely apt he said quote in his inaugural address the civil service can never be placed on a satisfactory basis unless it is regulated by law and we contend that there is law has regulations that govern this procedure here they haven't followed and that's why officer if we accept your position tell me i think this is true i'm not saying your client is but let's say you're whoever we're talking about scored the highest on every exam that was given but it was a complete jerk and nobody liked based decisions that are being made by the record strictly based on rumor hearsay things that happened ten years ago there's no personnel file the testimony is clear nobody's personnel file was presen personnel role was to miss through testing process to make sure that all of the candidates got presented to the director of police have the minimum qualifications to be considered for motion that promotion itself was a discretionary decision on the part of the right place personnel doesn't get to make the approval of b s but it's the director of police who knows his department the best who knows what kind of skills and overall it he's to see how they answered questions to find out what was important to them to try to get a sense of the skills they would bring to the job and to collect whatever information you get from the ver for police departments the most probably the most important skill is skilled leadership that's the ability of your team to inspire in the confidence loyalty and trust the commanding officers here al testified that that really is what they were looking for at the end of the day in this campaign aides and that is something that is not used measured by tests and exams and it's important to remember also not perform as well in that role as they would have hoped and it was a director's decision at the end that he really was not the right fit for this promotion at this time and that was the director's decision and it was on on the oral or it also called the structure of interview that was not by the way a promotional board that was a group of commanding officers gathered from around the state to administer the test questions to protect us but again the decision was not there was to me i think it does they are treated separately in separate areas of the structures in the regulations for initial point once they talk about eligibility lists which they didn't have to do here because this is a promotion but even when you're talking about eligibility that's the language still says you can pick from the highest reading group of ten or you can pick from a group of three or more you have to pick the person the top you can pick number ten you think that he has the skills anywhere in the world anybody can apply in the hiring decision i think that's where they're profiting from so he doesn't get his veteran's points or preference even though they've opened it up to everybody else in the world he said true is that what position is hey this was open to anybody within the secretary of state as far as i know that's why they had capitol police who were also part of the secretary of state police force that's why they had those people apply so it was it was open in that sense but these people were all employed by the secretary so in that sense it is a promotion not an additional hire so let me ask you this if it had been open to say they have a vacancy in this position and they decide to rec for that position no one to turn to veterans preference as i understand it they all get the points on their exam i believe because it's too difficult to administer who gets who gets to score who should who doesn't but in terms preference you know people already working for the secretary don't get it even for about site position where somebody else might be coming from indiana to apply there's a battery and they would get a better answer points because they've never been hired before right it's it's  two different things your honor maybe that's maybe that's my difficulty everybody gets a score on the written exam that's called points but then there's also the preference that outside people coming to transition from military life into the workforce that's why they do so when you're coming in from outside they'll give you a preference if you're already there they figure well you've made the transition you don't need that extra help they give the points anyway