from being classified as veneer panels and are having forty four twelve there's no authority to support this proposition the terms under heading forty four zero eight and having forty four twelve are not identical and they're not required to carry the same relative relatively small an extent from one surface to the opposite so we look at the lens that the with the of the products and in this instance the length is somewhere between thirty and seventy nine inches long the is somewhere between thirty one and forty four millimeters so relatively speaking it's that and then also which is it's a relatively thin i guess that's my problem is if you're saying that it's supposed to be relative and that means it's different for every single product right the way the tariff it's currently drafted the customs would have to look on a case by case basis because having forty for a weight does not dictate the size of an ear panels under heading forty four twelve there's nothing to support that proposition under heading forty four twelve explanatory notes provide a definition for veneered panels that doesn't include include a six millimeter size restriction restriction so if the drafters had intended for that restriction to exist they would have indicated we see numerous subheadings throughout having forty four twelve that do impose a six millimeter size restriction but they're all with respect to f zero eight so then we would look to the common def we're not arguing that if this time piece of pine were imported separately it would go under heading forty four eight we're arguing that it doesn't have to go under forty four only to be treated as a veneer that we can look at the common definition and the common definition simply says for one example a thin sheet of wood layer of what have superior value or excellent brain for overwrote overlain and inferior wood so when we look at composites grain in that it looks better than the inferior wood underneath and it's also there to provide stability to prevent bowing or war warping so it's assumed that's the purpose of the superior grain and that's the purpose that this pine provide definitions so there's no reason we should have to put similar are put veneer panels under the umbrella of similar laminated would just for the purpose of imposing a size restriction from having forty four away what proportion if you saying that we should on a case by case basis determine whether it's relatively thin and what proportion do you propose i think that there's no specific proportion to the definitions for  should be just the inner then the base and that would be sufficient to make it a veneer i think that i think that it would have to be better than the base i mean again that when you look at a product substantially thinner than the i don't think it needs to necessarily be substantially long as it's thinner so you have two pieces of wood if one of them is thinner than the other then that thinner one counts as a veneer i think it's again it depends i think they could both count to as suggesting that then does not necessarily have to mean that it is thinner than the base to which it's attached was that the star no that misunderstood it i think it would have to be thinner than the base two wit just barely i think that i mean i don't it's a subjective it would be data problem if it's a purely subjective test i mean wouldn't that be objectionable then that congress  use this heading and make subjective determinations i think the problem with the way the tariff is currently drafted is that it doesn't there's no size restriction under had imported for twelve import i don't believe forty four  provides that size restriction based on its language when it limits shoots through nearing for plywood and similar laminated wood so if the intention of the drafters of the tariff was to have such a such restriction then tariff needs to be added edited to reflect that intention but the way it stands right now we are left with a subjective standard i think when you look at the overall definition of  the piece of pine in this case means that it's a thin layer of would have superior grain again the purpose of the superior grain is decorative and provides to stability and that's the purpose of this piece of pine but the don't want to read out  superior pieces royd is just one of the ways to define what it is then is another way for iraq that's right so i mean if you look at both of them and this instance together it is nine point five millimeters which is three eighths of an inch which i think a reasonable person would say it's been when compared to the length of between thirty and seventy nine inches and of deaths of thirty one millimeters to forty four millimeters and i'm having a bit of a hard time following her on your proportions that it's just it's supposed to be a comparison not just between the deaths of the two items but also in the mind and the whip so are you saying that have something  mean i recognize that this this is a subjective standard that we're left with if the six millimeter size restriction doesn't apply the problem is the way the tariff is currently drafted that restriction doesn't exist twelve having forty four twelve only has a six millimeter size restriction for plywood and i don't believe that the language under heading forty four zero eight and forty four twelve are similar or identical in that they're required to have the same meaning because in order to do that we'd have to should then reach and say that ok with that for purposes of forty four away we're going to consider the near panels to be similar laminated wood so that we can make this six millimeter size restriction applied to veneer panels under heading forty four twelve but then we look at how do you work for twelve in your panels are defined separately they're not treated as someone of similar laminated  i think the problem is the way it's currently drafted because either way we're having too much when we try to understand that last point about similar laminated wood could you expand on that please so under heading forty four yes it says sheets for for plywood and similar laminated wood it doesn't include veneer panels under heading forty four twelve which is where we believe composites merchandise belongs that having the covers plywood veneer panels laminated and when we look at the explanatory notes to having forty four twelve in each of those products is provided its own definition so we know that in your panels are separate and apart from similar laminated  so knowing that each of those three not sure i understand why that helps you i mean you've got you've got the reference to the term  near at least in one case been mirrored in another case from the ring but it's talking about the new year in both and the specific item that we're focusing on here is not similar laminate wo forty four zero eight has to be viewed as essentially referring to the same item that is part of the veneered pounds and my question is why not i don't understand what similar laminated wood has to do please the court under composites rationale one could affix a piece of dimensional longer to a basin so long as that piece of dimensional lumber spinner the maze created  the near panel that flies in the face of the plain meaning of the term the near the only reasonable reading of the h g s as a whole is if one takes the and then affixes it to a big piece one has created a veneered panel well when we could have made more sense for the definition in the two sections to be consistent why not put that height restriction into both the drafters use the word then a thin veneer affixed to a base so actually under under composites reasoning that thin veneer should be something even less than six millimeters it should be something less than a sheep or veneering that's already defined earlier on in the h g s and looking at the h g s as a whole you're going from products closer to the tree for the most part starting with logs and things like that forty four dimensional longer or forty four a weight would be smaller thinner pieces which essentially dimensional longer and then moving on to more and more processed wood products so it's only reasonable to take a definition from earlier on of the with less processing and use it in a product with more processing later on in the h g s chapter forty four good let me ask you turning to the last point that ms owens was making  how do you read the second clause i guess it is of forty four zero eight that starts for climate or spore similar laminated wood and other wood sun lengthwise what what do you understand the role of the and other would in that clause to be well that would be other would that would be used for something other than veneering but it would have to be less than six millimeter rocket when i'm trying to get at is that do you understand the sheets provin nearing to be limited to four plywood and four similar laminate it would stop or do you understand that second clause to mean that the sheets for veneering can be for plywood or for similar laminated wood or other wood which of those two is  for any of those products were hooting other would you say yes including other wood because there is no comma before the and for other or or there is no there is no nothing to limiting the between this is in forty four twelve correct and so under the e n n forty four twelve would exclude products that fall within forty four away  chain by slicing laminated what this might mean that if there's a laminate and then you slice at the cross section of the of the laminate so that there's a large number applies in each right ok so is that a ground on which we might conclude that when the explanatory note refers to the end sheets of wood for veneering it means thin sheet is a reference to thickness not weren't including one in the other yes that's not that's that's the most reasonable way to look at the explanatory notes in conjunction with h g s as a whole what is the distinction and in forty four  sheets that have not been here again or that six or some other distinction that's correct so under forty four zero seven the dimensional lumber like a two by four but if you slice and clean the wood so that it's less than a quarter inch or six could be here to one another yes for example plywood you need to take at least three pieces of wood and hear them together with the greens perpendicular to one another the product here the grains are parallel so it doesn't fall with  finally i would just like to add that if the drafters had intended for the six millimeter size restriction to apply to veneer panels and having forty four twelve they could have done so in several ways as we discussed in our veneer panels in addition the united states could have added a restriction at the eight digit level the w c o could have added a size restriction to the definition of the near panels they could have referenced or incorporated had it having forty four  in the definition of the new year panels or when defining the new year and finally they could have specifically said the new york panels in the language of having forty four o eight and they did none of those things what is your response  referencing forty four away where thin if that if that is intended to incorporate a reference to forty four it would seem to me six millimeters why isn't it reasonable to construe the word thin in this portion of the explanatory notes to be the same as the word thin and in the meeting preceding page where the near panels is defined i e to mean six millimeters unles reading of this exclusion is simply saying that ships of a nearing that would be classified under heading forty four away would be classified under heading forty four twelve it's just so but my focus is on the use of the term fish and the reference to thin sheets of wood for veneering is then followed by a bold reference to the heading forty four away right which suggests that the explanatory notice conceiving thin to be the kind of sheets for even nearing that or referenced in forty four which are sheets that are less than six millimeters thick and why is that not a reasonable to ply would you see throughout the subheadings of forty four they talk about different restrictions even other than six millimeters i don't believe that the that then here necessarily needs to reflect on the word then under the