under five and it's the fourth paragraph and it says there are hundreds of these appeals out there in the county does want to spend the money that it takes to defend these cases does not want to  which you guys helped guarantee a loan which we paid off in march we were out of the paid off no debt hole and without hesitation we decided to make a fifty thousand dollars contribution towards the construction of just to get you oriented this is here is this is but we are here this is the entire development of forty law it's phase one is the first eighteen lots which includes this stretch of road up through here into here with a temporary call sack eighteen lots all the lots are half acre there is a very set back from thirty five on some laws forty two and a half on some and fifty set back fifty foot setback on physically roadway connect into the whispering pines cypress court barry lane there be a temporary call a second here there will be no physical roadway connection and that won't occur until three point five plus acre open space parcel here that will be dedicated as part of phase one there are some you know planning commission did review it at their meeting on the october eleventh two thousand and twelve the approved recommended count to approve it subject to twenty three conditions a lot of those conditions have been taken care of there are a few  that need to be discussed tonight number one this plan does include traffic calming and traffic calming islands that have landscaping in them or ordinance requires that those islands be maintained by a homeowner's association we need clarification from the developer at that indeed is going to occur there's a easement that's needed down here at the entryway on the boy or for any entryway signing element landscaping there needs to be an easement there and that also needs to be maintained maintained by a homeowner's association so that is yet to be shown on the  plan like i said planning commission did recommended be approved subject to those twenty three conditions all of a lot of which have been taken care of there are a few that need to be corporate into any decision council makes tonight  construction planning commission did approve prior to getting the phase one plan approved by council they did prove a grading permit so you see the grading is occurring out there currently and all the grading for the entire development needs to occur because they need to balance the cut and fills as part of that we required mr taylor bond access into the development so he couldn't get bonding on the bout road so he boarded our whole road in boy or road in we instructed him that we allow you to get started we we would let i had a couple of questions in reading the recommendation from the planning commission the statement is included that the color sack will be situated in such a way that it is the right of way as being preserved providing the option for a future connection should it be necessary i did not at all admit see the planning commission meeting nor did i say read the minutes they're not on there and i didn't watch it on t v so can you tell me a little bit about what that discussion involved and why they believe that that might be deemed determined necessary we just wanted to play the question just wanted to preserve that option in the future there's no  discussion of it ever connecting at this point but if in the future for example school busing sometimes triggers the need to look at alternative ways to get school buses in there right now the school bus is not going to come in there because it does allow our school bus to to maneuver around in not have to back up to get around a cul de sac so that was one of the reasons why we want preserve the potential future connection if indeed it becomes necessary for so little school bus in being one potential reason why and there will be a sidewalk connection and also some utility connections that need to occur from barry la one of the things that was concerning to me about that when i voted to approve the setbacks based on the motion that was made that there be no connection now there is the potential that it might be deemed necessary and i guess i'm concerned whether or not we should go ahead and approve the plan in its entirety with a set backs that are last and in that area if in fact the condition that triggered my dream it would change so i'm wondering why there are no councils in a position to restrict approval of the final phase pending and the  development at that point once they finish phase one to me that changes the condition if in fact there is more traffic through there the setbacks being lowered would not be that would not be what i would recommend believe completely the possibility i think all this does is reflect of the fact that should be the necessary to do that there is a right away that would be available rather than having to make some the cut through was the volume of traffic that would occur and and while there are two separate issues the setback issue in my mind has always been one that i would preserve the intent of the ordinance and that is th backs we came to a conclusion that's what we decided leaving or leaving a potential right away there are these are the we are right away you know doesn't say that we'll ever make the connection but if you go if twenty years from now somebody decided it was necessary at least you know if we have to go condemn more and you know i never did not in favor of the connection a roundabout and i can appreciate what you're saying as far as the ability to maintain that vegetation or decoration or whatever it would be where they intended to be like a roundabout not  me one two three but the question i was going to ask as far as common space i live in a plan that has a homeowners association in their landscape areas along that some of the areas and the homeowners association is responsible to maintain th will we be having a common space that's similar to that because i would certainly not want the township to have to pay to landscape things like that like we're doing now other pla need three are this was the design and where these traffic calming islands occurs in accordance with our traffic calming ordinance to look to where they are just a row over the castle on three or four walnut tribe i live in the woodland some of you are seeing some of my correspondence i've been engaged in in the review interest of this development since february when we were first some into our pulmonary planning meeting and i have to say  i'm a professional engineer with almost thirty years experience i've done site design traffic engineering roadway geometry design the planning has been abysmal for this development the access needs to hit for power now power he'll be bought road and i pointed that out numerous correspondence to bring five hundred cars down boy a road that's going to act like a ramp at the top of the hill there is absurd i agree with monica's assessment that the deal was made by council to accept the thirty five foot setbacks and to never have a connection to the so that connection needs to be made permanent not temporary it's not a good point good point he is making a connection to be by road and i pointed out to council that there's a slight distance problem with the existing access at boyer at that location if you have cars coming down the road forty five miles an hour in the left turn is going don't happen that enough sight distance the other thing that disturbs me is that council or the planning commission approved thirty five foot set back in august but the plans that was submitted to the planing commission in january of this year showed a thirty five foot setback so as an engineer why go for an approval for a setback change from fifty to thirty five when from the start i already had thirty five in my plans and spent that money because this council didn't like it  then you can evaluate what were my issues what were my impacts why am i going for thirty five that's the point i'm trying to make it yours it just disturbs me i'm not to see of claims dated january twelve with thirty five foot setbacks disturbs me i just like to make a point that the developments probably going to be approved tonight by the time we get to this stage i've been through enough of these hearings i'm really disappointed that planning commission did not do the right thing here in making the connection to to people if it was for the need of a five thousand dollar traffic study we should've done it you've got power hill and bieber is a dangerous intersection enough of us  probably almost gotten t bone at that intersection maybe some folks in the audience but we're just sending another five hundred cars a day that intersection and in closing i'd like cancel to make that connection to the wo treatments that need to be shown for a dead end and they need to be included in the final plan at very lamely there are certain treatments that pet not requires and i'm sure that our own ordinances require and then  you know finally as far as the traffic calming you know i agree with what the discussion people just going to drive over the the island that has show there needs to be an eighty foot inscribed circle to really have that duff area in the middle so that trucks and school buses can negotiate a mini type of roundabout for this type of condition and that's not what's shown but i'd be happy to answer any questions anyone might have but i just wanted to give you my two cents here hopefully i'll stay involved in future developments and maybe i can throw some some some hints earlier on in the process and maybe get involved so that i would point out the our engineers both the consulting engineer for the township as well as for the developer look at it from a physical standpoint options of trying to get to directly to be brought out and it was their conclusion that it was not feasible to be able to do that you know be a little wider and be able to make those turns that you can currently make i recall that in a way you know i respect his opinion and he doesn't agree with i think our commitment also was is when this plan is fully complete is their ability for school bus to navigate and no no no school districts policy is that they will not  into a plan we have to back out or make a go right back down the same street you came up this is an ongoing problem down the road if this connection is ever made it will be because of pressure from the people that live there or through the school board  be honest with you mr taylor i certainly appreciate the idea of connecting into the wetlands and the idea that for the purposes of school buses that make sense i will tell you that  i was of all the pieces of land you've developed i think this is probably the most challenging and one that i given that make up on it now wish you wouldn't have developed the way you did i could certainly have seen develop in the t just can't see how it's going to turn out well and i appreciate what mr akerson said perhaps there will be a time when someone else decides it needs to connect because of the school bus situation that people would quit driving their kids to school but  knows i just am about the pieces of land you've developed i think this is probably i wish that you hadn't i think there should i said i think there should be a requirement that there's a monument signed at the beginning of a plan because it helps from a protect their perspective away fighting for people you know when they're trying to find out where they're going but if you're saying that with the at that meeting there really wasn't any conclusion i made what explain their positions and and the direction was that the soccer association was to take another look at it and get back to the parks and recreation board and then the park and recreation board would come back with a recommendation to council or we just try to refresh my recollections of the position council and did it all right because we did i'm not quite sure about all the discussion there that meeting i think the result was that soccer was to come up with some recommendations that came to our wrecked board the recommendation was to not have spikes on the brand new turf field that is a brand new investment in the township and the parks and rec board agreed with that recommendation and i think it's maybe the third time we had basically come to  including the manufacturer who drafted the letter that was brought to your attention and at that meeting everybody had a chance to give their opinions and their arguments one way or  another the manufacturer was asked about that letter as we had stated the letter answered one specific question so we asked additional questions of the manufacturer that time things that he had given us prior to and after this came about and at the conclusion of the meeting it was asked of the soccer association to make a recommendation to parks and recreation board which they did at their next regular meeting and then it at our last parks recreation board meeting representatives again from the cross country booster club and the soccer association were present the item was discussed again and the parks and recreation made a formal recommendation to you in and in spite of the fact that the three eighth inch or less spikes would be warded by the manufacture but then the only objected to nourished by two dollars cross country in my correctly show correct and even representatives from the school district  option of keeping the start line and not using spikes or relocating and using spikes if this is approved by county and is there an area in the park that could be made to accommodate cross country people we believe that there is absolutely i know that this is their preference this would is their ideal course however there is enough space in the park to be able to provide that and our department has offered to work with them in whatever way we  of times and my recollection of what was said at the meeting is very different than what michelle just shared we asked the shah representative if he thought there was any problem with the spikes  he said there absolutely was not he said the only issue that could be posed would be enforcement making sure that the kids wear three eights ensure lax which you know our coaches have already come before council and said that that was not a problem we do spike checks would absolutely continue doing that we were told by mr burke wist that the reason the meeting was called was because the soccer association is basically trying to pull back their commitment to pay for their portion of the field and i think the word he used was extortion that he was not interested in having that you know extortion held over council's head you know i was quite taken aback by hearing that  obviously council has a fiduciary responsibility to represent all twenty one thousand residents of the township not just you know two hundred kids that play soccer on that field so i certainly hope that the decision would be made in what is best for everyone in the township not whether you play soccer don't but what is in the best interest when we went to the parks and rec meeting recently there was more discussion regarding us relocating our course then there was about if the spikes would cause damage or not there was absolutely no new information shared from the soccer association other than the fact that they just didn't want to be there  subsequently i spoke with the vice president sales from sha just so we can i'm going to put this letter here on and off you can can read it when we had the meeting and there was a discussion about the letter it was repeatedly length on the synthetic turf installed at peter's wood park the answer to that question is that is ok to wear this kind of shoe without causing damage to the turf and will not void any warranty when i spoke with the vice president of sales i asked him if he could explain to me in more detail exactly what potential damage could happen what he explained to me was that there is the way the course is constructed this was helpful for me but he said that you have three options when you install this field you have a two way to which two winner who are porter in two and a half i don't know which thickness of fiber is installed there at that field might look you know i'm not really sure ok so what he said is the fibers even in the smallest case are two inches long they leave a reveal between five the inch and a half an inch or as many minutes it's five beats to a half an inch that they leave that fiber sticking out of the top the rest of that distance is filled with the beads the end feel so you've got this fiber attached to the board beneath which is two inches down he said the only way that any spike could cause damage is if the infill was not maintained if he said especially in soccer where there's a corner kick where they have someone regularly going to that one position and kicking the ball repeatedly it's going to kick those beads out and unless those bees are refilled he said what will happen is a shoe will hit the bottom of that fiber and break that fiber off causing damage so he said if you are conscientious about maintaining your fill and you never let it get down to the point where you would have more than the length of whatever the spike would be he said you would never ever cause damage he said with a two inch with a three eighths of an inch and a two inch fiber you have a to an inch and a half of fill that could be kicked out before any damage would happen i have a stone number he said that he did not feel that it was necessary to write another letter as i said would you write us another letter apparently this doesn't say  phone his cell phone number he said if anybody wants to call him he is open to having discussion with him his name is chuck missler so you know he said to me we would not have written a letter that we would warranty a million dollar investment unless we were one hundred percent sure that those shoes are not going to cause damage i don't know what else can possibly be said with regard to the damage with regards to what has actually transpired so that you see the full picture we have been doing nothing more than trying to run our sport on that course we have been harassed there is a member of the board from soccer who is called our coaches and said i will start a race if you are not offered that field at four thirty we've had the same board member come to our meets and post signs despite the soccer association posting a sign that we were to be off of the field at five o'clock this particular board member has come change the sign at our meets telling us we should be off by four thirty middle school children our athletes our team have witnessed this particular individual coming to our means and where there are bleachers and the kids have their water bottles and jacket stage their pushing those items to the ground as an indication that he is not the entire board feels that that is their field and they own it and i as a taxpayer who have paid my portion for three quarters of the investment in that field i am appalled that they think they own this deal and they can dictate who can and can't use it as i said there was more discussion about trying to find a place to push us off that field to start our meet somewhere else and there are places that could be addressed within the park but i asked do we need to spend three quarters of a million dollars to dedicate soccer god knows what we spent on softball there was an area the fear of the park i walked the park since we had the meeting and i looked around the park to say ok where could we possibly build a poor for cross country that would be safe for our athletes to start this little field right here if we it's very slow if we want to put out only and how much excavation parts probably hundreds of thousands of dollars to expand this deal and make that you know not so we can make a big nice area there then we could certainly relocate but as i said in the meeting i think that taxpayers would much rather see us share the resources that we have for the two minutes that were on that field twice a year for the high school and four times to the middle school i do not think it is a big thing to ask if soccer shares that field with our sport as well it was sold as a multi use field and i think that's what it should be intended for with regards to safety i'm sorry one more thing michel had said that our choices are to move or to use no spikes asking our kids to run without spikes is like asking the football team to not play with helmets it is just not safe for them and as a meant i don't think that the them being off the field has anything to do with us using spikes and this was brought up there are parks and recreation board meeting our parks and recreation board did hear it however the issue that they're discussing is the fact that we've been told by the school district that they finish their meets by a certain time and they don't comply to that time in our soccer association is scheduled to be on the field they've been very cooperative our soccer association with not going on to the field but they have asked for the team to adhere to their schedule as well just like any school facility the way that it's been in the past is that the the school district programs take precedent at their facilities parks and recreation programs take precedent in our facilities and you know and that's what we are trying to enforce and i've talked to the athletic director and high school coach about it and we are working on getting them to comply to the time so it's been it's been talked about michel i appreciate what you said but that doesn't you know there doesn't approach what i'm talking about i'm talking about physically knocking translation of words off list of the seats that or not kids know absolutely and you know does should be smarter than the kids and i'm not saying that it would be acceptable i'm saying that the case wasn't that it that that didn't happen the way it was explained it all i'm saying is that it shouldn't happen there's just no there's no we've demonstrated that the spikes are not going to cause a problem i put signs up one time to let our players know our teams our coaches our parents that showed up that we could be on the field at four thirty that was one time and one time only and had nothing to do with cross country i am always on i feel i'm responsible for the nets for everything up there i am always picking up cleaning up every week i pick things up on that field put them in a corner where they can be found we're going to put a lost and that needs to be cleared up the just it's ridiculous beyond that you know we sat in a meeting with parks and rec we work with everyone we know this is in our field we're grateful to have the facilities we want everyone in this everyone involved but by the turf manufacture that use of metal would shorten the life span of that turf they want to have a long life span and there's a reason that our football teams and everyone else that uses turf doesn't use metal spikes any longer on that turf with pretty good reason making a single exception to that and forcing it would be next to impossible who knows what will happen down the road when we have different groups of people involved in someone  trying for something that just says metal spikes in it's not limited it says we care deeply about civility we're taking our own measures prolong it take care of it we value it means a lot to us and that's all we're trying to do  soccer association and i'm a member of the parks and rec board and as i said i have a child in cross country so and used to play soccer as well i was at the meeting that mr burke west called and without going through all the issues the main point that the rep talked about was customer satisfaction with the length the terms of it matter fact he said if we tell you that going to last twelve years and you only get eight years you're going to be an unhappy customer doesn't matter whether it's warranted or not you're going to be an on how to get happy customer that's not what we want you said so can i tell you will that void the warranty no it will not wait toward the he said that but can i tell you that you're going to get ten years twelve years out of that turf if you have spikes on that field no i can't tell you that so that in my opinion was kind of the main crux of the manufacturer in the warranty and on warranty issues it's wear and tear it longevity and to mr roberts point if you look at any other artificial surface they do not use non rubber soled shoes on those fields i mean if you look at professional athletes they do not they when they use it's rubber bottoms soles rubber bottom shoes you go to any golf course in the country can you wear metal spikes any longer and the answer is no they don't want to why because of where and tear on the course and on the greens so it's just it's just the nature of the world we live in as far as being able to use the field no one ever said the cross country could not use the field they can use the field anyone can use the field but what do they have to abide by the rules that are in place no different than the trail no different than the late no different than if i go to the high school stadium i can use that the city as long as i abide by the rules so no one is ever so the cross country could not use the the field they can use the field it just means that if we pass an ordinance that says rubber soled shoes only has to be rubber soled shoes only i mean that's the rule as far as the course and the safety and being other places are in the park for i believe it was nineteen years and the cross country coach that was at the meeting confirmed this and my daughter ran cross country for four years it was a different starting point now there are opinions that that course wasn't safe and there are reasons why it wasn't a good course and all these other things but i will tell you that for at least the four years of my daughter ran it and i'm guessing longer than that there was another starting point and there was a different course in the park is this course better probably is but there are other alternatives there and the last that one could argue one and that's only fewer people that have the mental spikes on the turf so that's even a better reason to allow you have less less wear and tear i don't think it's a matter of how many are on there it's a matter of if you allow it or if you don't if you allow it for five people you have to allow it for five hundred or so i think the real issue is you know it's either rubber soled or no rubber soled in that length thing or how many you're on there really doesn't matter so as a  taxpayer as an investor we could see here today you know what couple meets a year with little real estate it's not going to her and by the way it's eight years later wall be gone but are we doing a prudent thing or do we say you know what the wear and tear could be there would rather get my greed to some point with what you're saying mr lewis i think the thing that's somewhat unfortunate is that the field itself had been in planning for years and anyone who was a stakeholder had an opportunity to be involved and if it was recognized that this was going to be an issue for some components of the groups maybe there should have been a discussion going on right away about alternate courses for cross country i just feel it's somewhat unfortunate it's after the fact i will agree that you know if there is a risk i'm not sure i'm willing to take the risk of damage to the field i'm involved in ross country booster club and i can only kind of summarises to say here's the letter on the letter had of the route where's the letter that says do not do this this war harm the field we've heard a lot about wear and tear ten years versus eight years i think reasonable people would say there's not twenty five minutes on this field there's six six in all right and then the second about only certain runners where spikes that's true and we've got runners in middle school who are just now at that point yet we're trying to encourage them to be you know in shape fit kids and their parents just aren't out yet for them to win the race or participants so you've also got that same level of the high school of opportune also have kids who take this serious who are representing their school all championship in the state of pennsylvania and like many of our kids are actually vine for scholarship money for rides at colleges especially for females all right so we start out with a cross country team that varies year to year from maybe sixty to eighty maybe one hundred on a good year to decent our kids we're trying to build a program at peters township and frankly what we've got is we've got a really premier course finally something that this community in this school district can be proud of we've heard that from elite schools the mount lebanon it's who has a real programs and what we're fearful of is we've heard people who are frankly not in the know ran cross country thirty forty years ago when things were different or telling us you don't need spikes well i have a pair running shoes on but if i were to be an elite runner vying after a scholarship or better yet trying to win that race i want spikes and frankly that's just the know and we have this letter that frankly says it's not a problem six times a year reasonable people would say that's not going to promote the field from deteriorating and frankly from a safety perspective these spikes i mean the last thing we want is you know a young woman or young man from another school district who possibly is fine for you know a top ten finish in the state of pennsylvania on a scholarship at a college slipping and hurting themselves we had that happen this year we had this issue with the ceramic spikes the other school shows up and this isn't the typical practice so the whole team has to stop unscrew the spikes what's going on at peter's we always wear spikes wherever we go i know that some part of it and some of them just didn't end up wearing it and some of the girls were you can imagine if your child was vying for a scholarship and went to another course where this debacle was occurring slip about the harassment and things you know that was never brought to my attention and when things are brought to bear attention about stuff that goes on in the start we take care of it immediately trust me i never knew anything of that and if that does happen i wish they would tell me about it right away in the future  there's no room for that you know the row tolerance exactly right number one number two i also i ran cross country track in college and in high school and we used these like a waffle t treaded spike not spike shoe which gave adequate traction in college and we would use spikes at other meat so the notion that it's essential you have to have these is not it does help on a where rainy day when you're maybe running downhill shot but you do not have to have metal spikes to run across country right as far as kids buying for scholarships and things like that i can understand that but no one's come to watch me to peter's township new college coach to see if someone's going to win a race or anything like that they're the college coaches go to the big  the kids do worse bikes and all those are mostly on just grass fields i know that because i was recruited when i was in high school and that's where the college coaches go to see if they don't come to peter's township this to watch someone run a course there's not important for them to see them you see a big group of kids  truly the way they feel because the majority of the kids don't wear spikes should we be buying these kids go out and not use bikes which we did play in cross country then because of because they don't use bikes with that dangerous so that's always going to say thanks michel brought out in this form of brought up and it bears somewhat on the decisions is the fact that the record part is a recreational facility run by the township and cross country is a school sport and i'm not sure whether that has bearing on some of the decisions that are made about the or should have bearing on some of the decisions that are made about the amenities that we have i think to some degree it should because the park intellect board is responsible for decisions about the park and while i understand about the cross country i'm not sure that i can completely buy into the idea that we should take that risk for damage to something that's a township  for my for my part i mean i think to a partner or just the people we delegated this decision to but that being said from my own personal perspective i'm just i'm still having a hard time not acting as a resident my name is michael mccann with cheney capital markets and it's good to be in front of council here this evening in front of you is a handout that looks just like this and it's not often that i am able to come with such wonderful news but  tonight is one of those one of those evenings to refresh everybody's memory several weeks ago cal's authorized refining thing up top portion of the two thousand and ten bodies shoe and we've we've done all the steps necessary to bonds the savings is actually if you compare the old debt service to the new debt service you'll be saving one million forty thousand dollars and change if you present value that castree back to today's dollars it works out to nine hundred sixty seven thousand and based on a ten million dollars bond issue that is a fabulous amount of savings as a percentage of the total we're talking about over ten percent of the bonds of refinancing which is which is  wonderful rishi zero the interest rate on the bonds is actually under two percent it is one point nine seven percent the term of the old bonds match the term term of the new bond so we're not extending the debt or doing anything along those lines there are coterminous the savings you can see is structured actually in the first eight years that's the far right hand side of the of the first page of the handout and the reason some you'll recall the reason the savings is structured in that way is that this bond issue was weighted with principle on the back end and the only way we can structure the principle and this is really the only way to do that it falls out and then on top of that the department of community economic development had to have its blessing on this structure and they've got some new rules so we had to go to them and get to get their side off and we've got that in hand so this is the this is the structure that works for the cd you'll be saving hundred fifty three thousand dollars next year and approximately one hundred twenty thousand to one hundred  ten thousand for the next seven years through two thousand and nineteen i'm sorry through two thousand and twenty seven thousand and twenty one and then back to your payments as they were before the bonds have a five year call so without penalty the bonds we call in two thousand and eighteen and the bonds will settle in the in january of two thousand and thirteen so the us legal be the series of two thousand and thirteen bonds and it questions just to sure all those people that may be watching this on television wells the audience for this is not increasing or a little there in this community although it's still difficult to keep relying on your been under construction for some time our normal practice is not to accept the paunch until the plan is significantly completed so that there's a you know the developer then would have to go anyplace it out and get it ready to be a mondays in january the fourteenth or twenty first just fourteen and twenty first and i did check with mr b back he's available for either one of on the website tomorrow had a couple of minor corrections one mr johnson to recommend the other one that we put in there to clarify things that started that i would just comment that and i would just like to say i appreciate your trying to streamline the process and i do appreciate calls attention to this i like to go on record as my statement from before that i i really don't support continuing to do this until the county take some action i just feel it's inappropriate for us to be pitted against their word of honor or to the county not yet her response or if there was a denial of the of organization that to finance agency would meet the requirements so that we can mr johnson's review ece he felt that the language is expansive and the council can make that decision but there needs to be a  i mean we have to look at their books and records and all that stuff to make sure they were solving words why go through all that when you can just get a bank well i think if i can say something i'm pro on today's roll money and you walk you're the chief executive officer i am then today's world things are different you just can't go get banks to do this kind of financing today and there's a hole in the system today where banks are really doing it now position and development financing in companies like mine are filling that space and so when you say you know why can't the bank just provide if we are the replacement for the bank and that's what we're offering to do here we're not a federally chartered bank we're not as state chartered bank because we're not a bank we're finding it's company in other finance companies are a big bundle and part of finance companies are banks and then there's other finance companies that are not banks and that's what we are your hospitals company has to put up collateral for us and so what happens is the lending institution we have collateral in for our four point nine million dollar loan from mr hoskins we have a seven point six million or something of collateral  backing that including cash deposit from him about a million and a half dollars so that's what protecting us and then you know beyond beyond that obviously we have or you know financial worth as well but the real the real thing is for a company like mr hoskins what happens is because the bank in this case is using his collateral he really isn't capable of posting another amount of as the finding it's in source for the development we obviously have to make sure kids done because if it doesn't you know we're left with a half developed project so we're my view in the company's view is that if we don't guarantee the project we're going to end up doing the any developments you've had to step in and take over well let me say before working here i was the c f o of eighty four lumber and we did a lot of developing and obviously you know in the course of time obviously yes and  just developing but also la home construction as well you know obviously we've we've done billions of dollars and yes there have been times when that's been necessary but that was them and this is your company so i'm just asking related to when you've been in  company we have not ever had to do that because we have not had customers defaulting in that picture which i'm out of the board it's a million to fifty to fifty two to sixty two there that's what th  you know we're not a bank so i'm not going to tell you that we're giving you an ear revokable letter of credit because i'm not a bank and that's a term used in banking and i'm not a bonding company so i'm not going to tell you i'm giving you a bond but what we are going to do is guarantee makes me suspicious because i'm familiar with both of those right to what the difference is right but what we're going to do is give you a written guarantee that says that if there is a default by him that you will notify us that there is a default and obviously we'd already know but anyway he would notify us and then we would either fix the problem which is what a bonding company would do or let you draw the remaining amount on the you know the amount you see is needing to be drawn to complete the project up to the million to well first of all we're not a bonding company we are a final last company so think of us more like a bank ok because what we're doing is what a bank would traditionally do which is we're lending money for people to do construction and then think of what we're offering you really is to replace what normally would be a letter of credit from a bank and if your question is do we have to have a lot of risk our situation is we've been in business for five and a half years we had a public offering of debt much like i was listening to  issuance here we have a seven hundred million dollars debt issue instead just became approved in october and we're in the process of advertising we have to get our advertising approved and so we'll be growing our business from the size we are today and you know we hope to carry a balance at any given time of two to three hundred million dollars of projects like what mr hoskins is doing i was asking about your risk because obviously we're concerned about the timeship breast so i thank you for explaining  business in eighty four is getting out of the financing business to focus on the lumber business and i decided to hire people that we used in eighty four and also people that we had a relationship with a bank and so people from the bank in both those were headquartered eighty four  financing business and the banks business were headquartered in jacksonville so that's why the business is out of there was the financial advisor for that i did him loose springdale one into mr walker was also the financial advisor on that and also tuscany now done dozens of projects throughout the united states for eighty four lumber none of which have defaulted i think my review taishan here with development i've ever been fine never been written up never really had any issues projects are always done ahead of schedule you know we take special effort to make things look nice with entrances and monuments and i think completion has always happened without any issues and i see the same on this we did this mainly with mr because number one my relationship with him and experience and his experience in the financial world as well as the banking industry has changed a lot so just to be goldwyn and see the banker that you've known your whole life and say bill you know i want to do this development you know i've been coming here for fifteen years that kind of disappeared you don't really have that anymore and we've even found were some projects if you're putting seventy percent down you know you still can't get a bank loan for it so mr wallach's company has done and i think he's approved thirty six states now his company so anyhow i guess i'm just giving my word that i think you guys know that the project w get done i always finish what i start and i always bring it in more or less design and i and i don't think you guys have ever had discussions in here about me in the work in things like getting completed or anything like that if we thank you very much so you're on your way to fifty years in the bank i don't know that and it and i dated i just don't listen i have nothing against the builder i have nothing against a finance company i just do not believe that this is an appropriate to go down and my boobs going to be now some of you guys and regrettably are going to vote but i just don't think that it's a risk there's a reason why you know banks are getting tight tighter on lending you know banks could look on our website and read our financials in our quarterly filings with the f c c or you could look on the a c c's website and look at our you know filings to look at that the one thing i would tell you is there is risk in whoever you take rate if you had a bond f high g there was a risk with that if you have a bank guarantee that the banks are protected with f b i see the people who are protected are the people who invest in the bank the borrowers or the creditors are not protected when a bank is taken over by f d i c so having been a borrower from banks that have gone through f d i c receivership what happens is just like a bankruptcy all their commitments and guarantees are broken just so i mean so it's i think it is similar and if you want to look at the financial statements i'm sorry i thought maybe that would have happened before today but there are certainly on our website or or on the f c c is web site did it did anyone look at things more staff to be able to do the banks or some or elsie's and some more corporations you would be able to go after the four assets of the company with the l l c does this just like with a corporation a pretext the owners of the company beyond whatever the equity is they put in that's that's the difference it's the limited liability to the owners beyond the equity they've already put it need more information about and i agree with you and i think that it's good to encourage you know a variety of developers in the township i recognize mr curious concerns and that's why i wondered whether or company public online company we've been just reviewed you know because we just get our third quarter financial statements of the reviewed i don't we're not going to be producing an individual statement just for one township that says oh well here you're liquid or you're financially solvent the company makes money every year you know it's got plenty of liquidity it's its equity is forty percent of its assets you know i don't know what sort of letter i would get from my orders to go beyond that i mean i'm getting a queen on an opinion every year i don't know what else really i would do not to do something prior to the audit that's coming up here and you know it is month we're going to get started  that's just for information purposes the next issue is a letter from  letters we've this is a situation where we're not going to a response back from my from the developer from my letters i've spoken to the bank they recognize your obligation to the bank today are you now part of the west bank we've gone through the process we're at the point now where we're going to be sending a letter out asking for the funds to complete that phase we're going now from the bond holder from the you're still some work to be done but it's not a default you curious i guess what i'm concerned about is maybe we need to look at whether or not we have people in this situation and avoid  letting them begin something else before something's concluded somebody if we don't have somebody but he would not like to be reappointed patmore she didn't get back to me she felt that she had been on the board long enough and that there somebody else would be given an opportunity and plus