when it leaves the court i'm going to get right to my two main points here i believe the patent office is committed harmful air first for improper claim construction and second regardless of claim construction the patent offices reliance for obvious obvious is based on case are simple substitution and i believe this is an insufficient motivation for combining miller's billings building codes into eisenberg's privileging system to result in a privilege in determination based on both privilege information and  case the only pending rejection is an obvious history junction and from that written record both cox and the patent office agree that privileging systems are known in the yard and cox in the record as a fifty seven for the concedes that entire industry is developed out there relating to billing codes and billing systems for analyzing for billing purposes but to date no one has used billing codes in the context of a pillaging determination for whether a hospital worker services i don't think it makes a whole lot of difference meyer's invention seems to be say if you do it contemporaneous it's advantageous because the dr is right there he can put in the code and it serves a purpose in our system if you do it later if it really has to be done out front because the whole purpose is for printing determine whether before something is done the doctor can perform that and i think that might be a misunderstanding from my understanding of the patent offices claim of her petition which is a little vague times is that we have two distinct pieces of information we have pleasure privilege information and billing codes and then further relational information that ties that billing code to what we call in the specification a privilege which in our claim we define as a privilege is a medical procedure to which the doctor is authorized or privileged to perform so as an analogy i consider that our specification it's clear that there a certain criteria to determine whether a doctor is opponents for for proof procedure that can encompass the doctor's basic education and training educational requirements and other things and from that you can get a basically a collective not a single procedure but a collective group of procedures that the doctor is scheduled or is permitted to prove or privileged to perform these can be simple basic procedures code for these purposes so why does it matter where pilling codes fall into the chronology of use is long as they are factored in to the decision making process i think  herring i think really matters i think it's kind of in the record i don't think it really matters that's no way that germane my point i think are our position is that the claims are clear that in order to perform privilege the printing computer requires three types of information privilege information billing codes and relational information that ties that billing code to something related to the privilege which is the medical procedure that the doctor is required to do so  applicant is saying ok let's use the billing codes to identify the procedures to which the doctor's office of the question is whether using that as a shorthand in this particular context would have been obvious given the think what's important maybe it was an analogy is there is an over scoping range of privileges privileges could be ok i recently had a kidney stone surgery so maybe that iran just may have a certain broad scope of privileges or general procedures very abstractly to find that he can perform where billing code is more specifically tied to specific ones of those so the collective privilege information is a is a collective where the is a singular one and are specification if it's read in layers specifications are terms building codes are designed to term to perform a different function the function is to gauge the performance of the privilege and i consider it as a simple clever way to to do this and it may be that as a result they're the first ones out there and they're going to make a lot of money but isn't there a difference between you know maybe just cleverly reordering things and the record is that privilege and information is known billing codes are known but no one is really tied us together in determining of a natural privilege and i think the patent office position is that printing information is defined as has the function of associating with a medic a medical procedure billing codes or have a same function of associated with a medical procedure and therefore they're identical in function they're interchangeable  substitutable one can be subsumed for the other you end up with something that he seems inconsistent with our specifications says that there are two separate things with different functionality and our system requires both of them and their simple how to show logic is insufficient to support a motivation for combining them i still think it's want to go back to the point that i think there is a difference between them privilege or informational mission to combine them that it's well known to be a convenient way of identify performance not only has he has the basic concept to perform this but he has a certain level of experience as identified by the quantity of building codes to a single procedure that million titles him for determination to be entitled to additional privileges so that's something more than just basic background information it's a specialized type of billing or professionalized type of identification of a procedure and how that c tied to making a determination of privilege specification is timing of of billing codes to privileges but yet that's not the focus of your claims or claims of doing something different we get there's no one twelve rejections so it appears to me that they are interpreted in the claims completely abstractly without reference to the specific definitions for that terminology we have written related specification and because of that i think you can see the logo they claim one is representing right yes yes so i'm not sure how arguments on and claim one requires that the privilege determination is based on three separate pieces of information privilege and privilege information which we define as information relevant to define a medical procedure that a particular health care worker can have privileges to perform we have building codes which are tied to billing information which is tied to a billing code and relational information that ties that billing code to not a procedure but the promise procedure which is pretty fine to both has the procedure that the health care president physician or worker is privileged to perform and i don't see where the patent has met its burden to show that the references collectively have anything more than just a collection of pieces with other reasons why you have billing codes but not why you tie billing codes to a particular privilege within a privilege privilege determination system or can see that it's tied to some sort of an abstract procedure but how that pertains or is relevant to determining privilege does not really come forth in rejection absent hindsight consideration of what are inventors doing and the pattern of itself is conceded that no one a doctor in the art has done that specifically in the past out privileging a termination so the privilege in determinations here all that is is determining whether a particular healthcare worker is allowed to perform a particular procedure in a particular facility so does dr jones get to do a heart bypass surgery a care worker along with his existing his or her existing privilege that then takes a nother piece of information which is collected information about the outcomes that health care workers have doing that type of that type of procedure for billing so you would submit to an insurance company who gets hundreds of thousands of claims and they want to know exactly what you're talking about what exactly procedure you carried out and that's why the standardization is important and you can imagine why this would also be important if you wanted to trim and whether to allow somebody to carry out a procedure or if you want to do a checkup and see if they've been carrying out the procedures well you want to know if it was a difficult harbor heart bypass or whether it was a simple heart bypass and building codes give you that type of granularity so you can get not just heart  of what was it i matter whether it's for the procedure after the procedure not at all it's it's either case it's exactly the same as serving exactly the same purpose which is just that then if i what the procedure is so the before after  medical procedures but at the same time it does it for billing which comes afterwards but also does or prospectively and the i think great system also has perspective myers doesn't to schedule later appointments it's actually the exact same purpose that eisenberg does it for so  so it makes sense to use the building codes that that strategy of using a standard billing code makes the last sense use and the iceberg system so i just want to touch really quickly on the claim construction issue  procedure billing code including at least one medical billing code and relational information that has a relationship between the back of a medical procedure and a billing code i think the claims are clear on their face but any dispute about the scope of these claims other side reference to that issue how do you what do you interpret that discussion debate and i think the i think the discussion is that the specification the specification here discloses in every instance i've talked one type of relationship and this you can imagine a computer system that type important because you have tables where you can look up specific things the specifications seem to contemplate tables that look up a privilege based upon a building  claims look like they are contemplating a situation where you would look up a procedure based upon a billing code and then look up a privilege based upon procedure it's slightly different whether it's meaningful in the room description sense it's not there's just no  thank you very much a concern codes to procedures which with our claims relate specification our claim should be read with that consistent analysis that our billing code relational information ties that billing code to a privilege not just a procedure but a privilege and i think the way we do that is you interpret the claim consistent with a specification such that our specific claim language of primitives from a sion identifying at least one medical procedure permitted for healthcare worker to perform in essence is saying that at least one that the procedure permitted for healthcare workers perform is identification of a privilege and the relational information ties that building code to to a specific privilege instead there's only the loose association that both can tie to a certain procedure but i still think there's a semantic difference between those two