evidence and a full moderation judge's decision that the petitioner lacks credibility after department of homeland security forensics document laboratory examiner conclusively determine that petitioners chinese i directly on the issue as to petitioners chinese national id the titian argues that the findings of the forensics document laboratory examiner do not fit constitutes substantial evidence as there is not an adequate basis to find that the document is conclusively counterfeit in this matter the forensics argument laboratory examiner elaine wooton for the department of homeland security determined that a simple statement of  actually he did some provide and haro versa ticket which the judge ultimately determine her decision that proper foundation was not lay for that document however that was initially presented in this immigration judge and decision and  courts found in other cases that foundation may be laid in any met any manner there is no reason to discount petitions no time or certificate in this matter there's nothing to show that that document was in fact not valid not genuine the physicians documents remain in the possession of the department of homeland security the original documents well did you try to argue that the document was project the chinese identification or i believe the answer is yes your honor and the reason i state that is petitioner never had any reason to doubt that that document was not in fact genuine he stated that he obtained the document himself from a public security bureau in china he left that document in china it was in a wallet his wife mailed it to once he was in the united states but she sure had no reason to believe that that document was in fact counterfeit and in fact he has the reason he has no explanations because he believes it's a genuine document and why couldn't the birth certificate have been further authenticated well an attorney got that later right it wasn't his original birth certificate right it's again outside of the record it's my understanding  chinese representing representing chinese nationals that standardized person six were not issued in china until later years so petitioner being age forty nine i believe the time the trial would not likely have had a original b birth certificate is essentially someone going to an official saying was this person born so it's secondhand nature i will admit to that but there is no original birth certificate for people and i believe it was a nine hundred eighty s but i cannot be correct on that standard and who went and got that notorious license right so why isn't there any declaration or anything from his wife explaining all that well one  argument is that he provided those documents at the beginning of the representation at the beginning of the near the beginning of the trial he was never on notice to provide a declaration i don't want to default to that argument but he did appear before four different immigration judges and fourteen occasions and he was never on notice to provide additional documentation as to his identity at one point or some of the sessions to one year issue documents but not to read into this in that time frame in fact at the the trial was split into two sessions because the phrase occurring there was not available during one of those and in fact when the judge adjourned that on her she asked for him to bring back his witness his church witness for to a test it seems like a lot of time is passed without any documentation being offered once the immigration judge's decision is issued of appeal to the agency the board of immigration has a final decision the solution that would be a motion to reopen  petition so who has tried as i stated to obtain any documentation the form of the people's republic of china passport i simply don't believe there's another document out there that would prove the declaration yes however these are desperations of persons that are not available for likely available for cross examination and but just never believe what he arrived when he arrived in this country he came across the border through an airport he entered with a korean passport and it was subsequently taken by the smuggler who assisted his entry into the united yes not through the mexican or canadian border he entered at an airport his testimony was credible in that regard has he had any kind of identification here that could be used to confirm that he hasn't committed any crimes here is there any way to identify who he is been since he's been here he does it it's my understanding to get outside the record he does have a california driver's license a california id and he could submit the california department of justice fingerprint results showing a lack of a know he'll never have a chinese passport and he's been unable to obtain one because he doesn't have a he did his identity documents if we want to call them that are with the department home and so how did he get in the country to begin with you find even when the finding that the document was counterfeit i believe the yemeni is on point in this matter thank you ok thank you e document was not counterfeit it's hard to imagine exactly what that would be if that's your question but the bottom line is that the standard under which this court reviews the record of ask the court to look to see whether it can compel the conclusion that the document was not counterfeit and here there is no evidence in the record at all to support the conclusion that the document was not counterfeit let alone to  twice conceded that the f t l document examiner elaine wooton was an expert she provided voluminous testimony as to how she determined that this document was counterfeit and there was no evidence in the record going the other way it's just hard to see what he could have done i mean he could if he's telling the truth that he actually got this document it's a little bit hard to imagine what else he could have done then he tried to do here even with respect to authenticate in the document well i believe the panel's questioning if your counsel raise the possibility that he could have presented a declaration from his wife i'm not sure that's right that's for the birth certificate that but for the the main identity document that they she said was forged he says he got it directly from the office right and he said isn't he the one who got it and what else can he say well your honor that's a difficult question to answer because i  i think your honour's effectively asking what could he have done to prove the authenticity of a counterfeit document and the answer that's probably nothing the document is counterfeit has been conclusively dipped determined to be counterfeit so it's difficult to imagine how he could have rehabilitated that he could have produced other documents of identity to work around that problem but we're basically concerned with his identity that's correct  testify those certainly could be options your honor yes but it bottom the determination that the agency reached in this case is that mr jain did not present credible testimony because he submitted a fraudulent document and repeatedly testified it was authentic and testified as to how he got it for the court to determine well you know i had an experience once where one of my buddies from the know not to i certainty but at least to a high probability and so just because the expert says i maybe they filled out by not getting someone else look at it well i think your honor this key fact that distinguish the circumstances of your honor's colleague from the circumstances of this case are that shy didn't present any of the other kinds of documents it sounds like your colleague had and furthermore i would note that in this case mr shy had forty years i know what kind of sounds a little like  you think there is other forms of relief that might be open to it sounds to me like your honour's inquiring about the possibility of an exercise of prosecutorial discretion you picked up right in the answer to your question is i'm not aware that mr shier has affirmatively reached out and asked for that form of relief but our office did affirmatively inquire with the department of homeland security and their answer is that prosecutorial discretion is been declined in this case so that has been explored and security on the first go around to deny it and then later on granted well that may be the case in other circumstances your honor but a hate to not be able to answer questions in the panel your honour's in this case to determine that mr shaw i probably do that would seem right except in cases where it's clearly not warranted based on the on the facts here there are  few facts that cut either way and as i mentioned it's not clear that mr trius reached out your honors i'd like to make just one final point if i could which is that in order to determine that you know you have an issue here of please to my mind there certainly are your honor but there's only one thing that his you know his escape has no criminal record or you check that no i did not your honor no i'll come i don't have the what steps they took to reach this determination they merely provided me their determination your honor as i see my time is expired i would  what is the government's position here do you think that that it's an inference in this record that he's not chinese at all your honor i answer that would be the burden falls on mr shine to demonstrate his identity and his nationality  testimony as to its authenticity his words which requires the court to arrive at one of two possible explanations were both of those things can be true the court would have to determine the record compels the conclusion that the chinese government issued mr giant a counterfeit document in the manner he suggested or that he received enough documents from the chinese government asked his wife to send it to him and inexplicably his wife did not do that but instead for surety counterfeit i d card mailed it to him and then lied to him and said that that was his actual i d card the court would have to come find at the record compels one of those two conclusions in order to reconcile mr gys testimony with the uncontroverted fact that this document is counterfeit certain documents certain additional documents a support the case in writing and that will be provided to them in their mad native language not always our petition is able to secure those documents whether it's because they didn't try or whether they're not available client your honor i try the best i can to assist my client but one other not they are able to secure those documents that's another story sometimes their families are afraid to mail documents from china to the united states sometimes they can't get them or they're not of the means to obtain those documents but i will let this court know that i do ensure that the clients are instructed of what documents they need to cooperate the case especially at the re