cars parked on private property have different rules for police to follow up to conduct an inventory thirty vehicles parked within the curtilage of a private home was were they were they not raise only in your reply brief that's my quest i think not i think that page five of the opening brief you'll find the language that the district court improperly real problem whether or not that was raised in your reply so go ahead make your mark and judge the most i can say is if you do have concerns i certainly don't have gone so in my looking at it i private driveway adjacent to the home he shared with the owner of the car present in the house our position is that the district court committed an error of law in holding the inventory search of the car was inevitable without analyzing that different and more stringent standards require our position is that the inventory search in this case should never have taken place it was not reasonable i me ask you this once the the officer entered the vehicle to secure it under the community caretaker exception and saw the gun and then miss baucus said we don't think that they get to see the gun because they needed a warrant to get into the car under collins versus virginia because the car was on the cartilage and in order to even if you see contraband in a house or in a cars parked at a home or in a home then you still need to get a warrant to get into that because the home has the gun was visible from outside the car area with numerous other officers on the scene decides after the appellant is arrested is been found and arrested that he's going to go in and look in the car now we don't know what  only after deputy carsten chavez went into the car was the gun even seen and even if it was seen i think the district court was correct in stating that it was not  numerous police officers asking him to very point the question is going to elicit an incriminating response whether or not he was a felon and so at that point you have a situation where the knowledge that the gun might be constitute a crime is derived by this tainted statement that's been made by the appellant and then you still have a problem with the it's issue in that they still would require a warrant to get back into the car even if they had probable cause that's again collins versus virginia and so  they made no effort in this case to obtain a warrant and as a result they had no right to get into the car if the car had been rolling forward towards the other officers miss it would officer chavez have the right to enter the car to put on turn it off and put on the emergency brake i think you would have but the testimony in the hearing was that the  immediate harm and what money was that the car was moving and shaking there was a dog running around in it unsecured and it was right that the car was on it was running and that he was concerned that it might roll forward couldn't the the district court believe that testimony well st of all i mean here's the picture of the car and it was the only thing is said i believe is that it's in drive and so but it's not going anywhere hasn't gone anywhere for ten minutes because officer casa not arrives at the scene at officer costin out of the tell him that there's the gun in the car so this car has been sitting there for eight to ten minutes and nothing has happened because the wheels have not moved at all to conduct an inventory search there's no reason to conduct an inventory st when the owner of the property is right there in the house all they need to do under the sanders case or for that matter the papas case is to ask some questions who has this cart who has the right to to deal with this card it's on private property and they go sell out counsel just raise the issue sanders gets at that that's my point about your raising that for the st time because nowhere during this case was the trial court asked to apply the sanders fact  was not a valid inventory search and so i'm simply elaborating on that argument when i raised sanders and i raised both the call of the new mexico statute and also the  from private property unless needed is evidence or pursuant to a lawful court order those things were not done the st step that officers have to do when they have a car that's parked on private property is to go try and figure out who has control of either the owner of the property or the owner of the car and in sanderson in popper's both cases from the th circuit they provided a means to ask either the driver of the car or the owner of the car if there was something that could be done with the car so that there wouldn't be a problem with it so that there is not an e mail do we know whose firearm that was i don't think well if we don't know firearm thing a firearm in the car does not necessarily indicate that there's that if contraband you only get there based on what the improper statement it's been procured from the appellant but then beyond that at because it's on curtilage you have to have a warrant to get into that car so the police don't have a right to access the inside of the car to get to it i'd like to reserve the remainder  may please the court justice ago you have for the united states your honour's the district court appropriately declined to impose the heavy societal costs of suppressing from evidence a firearm that was clearly an awfully possessed by the defendant who is a found and there are four different ways that this court can and should affirm that decision st the district court did not clearly commit clear error in finding the search of the vehicle and the retrieval of the firearm was done before cary baka arrived on scene and was verified as the registered owner and that it was therefore justified under the if it's research exception i don't understand why they are calling it a search we're not talking about the firearms through the window you have a right to have a firearm in your car there is nothing that would tell them that that is evidence of a crime right well so there's no question they see the firearms really the question is whether they have a reason to believe that it's contraband and that really goes to that probable cause i demoed be able exception argument and so you know and by the automobile exception do you mean  what was the probable cause when either you ended up to prevent it from rolling or you saw through the window that there's a gun there what is the probable cause that that  saw the gun they went and asked him if he was the gallon when he was not miranda that he had not been given his miranda warning correct that structure on a ok it's not a problem no it's not your honor and the reason it's not as is door to put it in park that's when he sees a gun that is not a violation of any law that i know of in new mexico share with me or that makes that a law that  statements that for purposes of determining probable cause not involuntary ones and the district court found this was an involuntary stay and you pretty much stuck with her you know your honor i don't believe so you know it's a review for clear with respect to the factual search began and the fire was found and was obtained before kerry baka arrived on scene it was confirmed as a registered owner and it's important to note that when she was confirmed as a registered owner they did what sanders requires and turned the vehicle over to her so the testimony that they provided was subject to cross examination and the district court credited those statements judge paul dock in the virgin shouting case you stated that credibility determinations by the district court are quote virtually unreviewable on appeal close quote and that that was in the context of sentencing both for sentencing and for a motion to suppress the district court is the finder of facts of that that's really a difference without a distinction  if we do reach the senators as you know you just blot out lives don't you because the sheriff's policy says the it goes will not be towed from private property unless needed is of events or pursuant to a law full court order and don't have an inventory unless you're going to told the automobile and it unquestionably is on private property and police knew that the owner lived there because the neighbors well you know respectfully are the police did not know that the owner lived there that's an important factual distinction that the neighborhood reported came out of the adjoining property and oh yeah that car that people live over there he said the people who drive that that the people who drive that car lived there i mean you can't then assume that it's not on private property you jack well so this is this is a i think it's a very very important fact so two things real quick st you have a circumstance in which an individual has fled a concededly valid traffic stop at a high rate of speed he very much wants to get away from law enforcement he runs a red light he almost hits an ambulance he comes to stop at the vehicle and whether it was consistent with department policy on private property that's right you don't have to own that it isn't the owner's house it's on private property well so you know if i could if i can just the registration barca had just registered that vehicle less than a month prior and its registered to an address a keel box in cuba new mexico you're saying that you can and oriental any automobile unless it's parked in front of the escape them that there's a concern about the property they have an obligation to that's why i don't have a right to him and because it's part of if i drive to new mexico to visit judge bal think my car in his driveway private property you do a search in the i live in thought lake city you can't tell the car you can't invent warri and tell the car even if you saw me run a stop the the important distinction i think is that in those circumstances that it's not necessarily that the car is evidence of a crime in the circumstances you described here it's the case that that that is the case he fled at a high rate of speed are on the inventory let me ask you this question are we stuck as a paddle evaluating this case soley on the felon in possession whether there was probable cause or can we have firm on any basis which just to say if there was probable cause of another it's and while so instance concealing a firearm because there was plenty of testimony that the defendant leaned forward and at the firearm was found in a place where cause of any type of crime and when they see the you know that given the description circumstances the court just described in the fact that they see the firearm that there is probably cause to believe that there is evidence of that crime in their being the firing itself and the particular don't know that you have to successfully conceal the firearm in order to be convicted of attempting to conceal it so there's certainly probable cause if that you know people are not raised in the district court it wasn't your honor but this court can affirm on any basis  taking function the officers have come across a vehicle where the defendant has flagged they know that there's a firearm inside of it and when they me and consult with the registered owner she disclaims any ownership of the restaurant or the vehicle she just claims any ownership of the fire on expresses shock that it's there had no knowledge that it was there and there's some insinuation in the record that she may have been a felon herself and so right what do you point i was looking for that what at inquiring whether he ran a record check for miss baka to confirm whether she was a felon so that's where it's the insinuation is that he was asking that question and he actually said you you know had you stop or that learn she would fail and learn she was a felon you would have reason to believe that she wasn't being honest with you about the you know about the file so in any event though it's not necessarily that she has to be a felon there is a community care taking function and a concern about leaving firearms in untrained hands that justifies their seizure of the firearm in this case and the fact that it's on private property doesn't  any event i think judgement you is correct if you can supposedly see this and it's not consume your well by looking through the window we'd be talking about an attempt crime let the person playing at a great rate of speed and his inability to get all of the fire out of you might be understandable in public do you think i don't know what his purpose was there could have been other reasons why he was playing  greater speed the district court point not notably stated at the foot of movements by the appellant do not cross the threshold into probable cause and then finally the district court did correctly note the vote vote versus city of hayes opinion finally the community care taking credit function about trying to get a car out of a gun out of a car is parked in your own private driveway many people  undoubtedly carry guns in their cars and that's not a basis but we're not me this is the problem i have with that is this a situation where the owner of the car is shocked to see the gun there and wants no part of it and maybe wants no part of it because it's illegal for greed that's what it i mean what are they supposed to do at that point with the good the proper procedure for them to done in the st place the  step that they needed to do was to go to the house and ask mrs baka what her name was find out that she was younger of the car and ask her is it ok for us to inventory this car and they didn't do that so they only get to this there's nothing in the record to suggest that the property is in a high crime area that would cause any concern about the fact that there might be a gun in the car this is not the caddy versus the pro