well the planning committee meeting of january seventh two thousand and sixteen please come to order my name is diane couch and the chair of the committee and i want to wish everybody a happy new year this is our first meeting of two thousand and sixteen and let's hope everybody's two thousand sixteen is a and of course we have our welcome back to our corporation counsel michael hopper good morning and staff we have greg our no legislative analyst here and filling in today for  community plan update we're not using video conferencing to date because there are some feedback issues and they're working on that ready to open public testimony for individuals testifying in the chamber please sign up at the desk outside in the chamber door if testifying from a remote testimony site please sign up with district office staff testimony will be limited to the idea listed today on the agenda pursuant to the rules of the counsel each testify will be to testify for up to three minutes prior to him and i'm also going to allow an additional minute to conclude testimony when testifying please state your name and any organization you may be representing or gravel lighting system for those in the chamber denise's on your end you may want to just keep an eye on the time at three minutes the light at the light will be green for three minutes and then at three minutes it will go to yellow which means you have one minute to conclude your remarks and then it will turn red and when it turns red please and your remarks all right members without any objection i think we'll start public testimony ok let's do this since this is if you can't get the language that i sent over objecting to yesterday to online community plans are you going to have a different set of rules in one area or an island over another and if the fighting director tried to tell you that this was presented and explained to the one i'd be packing l p c i would suggest you get back down to tell you the date time and play can the minutes where this occurred and see if a robust discussion actually happened  and email a directly to the committee that way we can write that because we need that last language as well we would like to get take a look at that commenting on things that were added afterwards by the department of my department and again we now see that as the people and i testified that further changes had been suggested by the planning director according to county code two point eight zero b point zero nine zero the planning director supposed to make his recommendations at the beginning it then goes to the advisory committee then goes through and i planning commission and then comes you there's nothing in there that says the plan direct should continually be making suggested changes that's not in your county code and i reject the latest intrusion into the process that the people of illinois i have had to develop their own plan it would set a dangerous precedent all over this island and molokai as well if constantly the planning director changes things after the communities have made their recommendations to you in particular he's recommending now your latest thing that came out just this past week that major changes we've done in appendix nine point two and so the wordy words are uses very bad the whole thing is is bad he changes the word indicates to envisions with a vague reference what does that mean envision something he also added to each of the definitions the words and related and compatible uses without any definition of what how extensive and how wide ranging those related inexpensive uses would be appendix nine point two he also even added another word the word other to two of the definitions with regard to the light industrial and heavy industrial areas why put those that would other in just those two items and not in anything else is a bit of a mystery no is the whole document that he's now submitted is bad and some very dangerous presence and i my guess is he wants to insert that into each of the committee plans that you will be looking at so this is the first one and i think it sets a very dangerous precedent to have that language in there first that he's doing at the late date second that the communities themselves have not had a chance to look at it the people from the nih ask that you go back there and see whether they like the implications because it would change the the idea that they had of what their community like by adding all kinds of zoning provisions into the plan and finally what we've seen here in mali with existing community plans is that the playing director has misinterpreted the  definitions when he's actually applied them in industrial areas for example where it says that commercial areas can go into the into the intern area he said it could be one hundred percent commercial where is the law your co way it's been interpreted by the department playing director at this time finally the comment the latest thing that he put in has no version you don't know where he's made changes so it's very difficult for you the council members to know what he's really changing he's he's not underlined or crossed out with changes that he's making from what the committee recommended at the advisory committee level or at the planning commission level and i hope you respect the people of libya i reject plane directors recommendation thank you thank you mr members any questions to the testifier seeing none thank you thank you again next to testify is mark hyde followed by albert good morning my name is mark wright i reside in south maui i'm concerned about the lanai community plan because it's clear that this document is intended as a precedent setting for all the community plans that will come forward in the future and that's why i'm here and like mr mayor i'm concerned about appendix nine point two of the plan which i believe says simply be removed from the draft because it includes language that will negate the purpose of land use planning which is to regulate the development of land in an orderly fashion and in a hierarchy that places the community plans above zoning and what this does is it puts zoning above the community plan language so it's reversed the  mischief point to if adopted as seen in the way in which light industrial zones are interpreted and applied by the county planning department the planning department takes the position that light industrial zones need not contain any shred of commonly defined light industrial uses and thereby creating sones that are unpredictable and this isn't simply a matter of stacking it goes beyond this let me explain i think  you and the man on the street would expect that if you saw a light industrial zone you would expect to see in that area common light industrial uses warehousing light manufacturing that sort of thing  that would be confirmed by the missile code because the middle code defines light industrial as follows it's entitle purpose in intent here's the purpose and intent of light industrial zones quote to contain but mostly i want to emphasize the word mostly which means more than fifty percent to contain mostly warehousing and distribution types of activity and permits most compound in assembly or treatment of articles with the exception of heavy manufacturing and processing of raw materials in quote now the county ignores this language even though a well established principle of law is that statues are to be given meaning they are not to be cherry picked the county ignores that introductory definitional phrase goes to the next section which is subordinate to it and it speaks to other allowable uses within industrial zones that is those that can be found in the other forty nine percent and which by the way is just about everything under the sun because in that subsidiary section it says any use allowed in b one b to b three and i submitted written testimony to you and i outlined what all those things are it's an amazing array of things most of which have absolutely nothing to do with light industrial use so we have an absurd situation  which results in light industrial uses that are in name only there's no predictability and that's why you will find in maui county wide industrial zones that are one hundred percent retail shopping  centers and this you know chase with the community among other things we want the zoning and plans are designed to provide predictability of the communities in which we live and that's not the way it works out in our county so my sense is that the problem is not with community plans the community plans are good documents and they're prepared in a way that gives the communities insight into and a voice into the problems with zoning and so i would say to you strip out nine point two let's go to work on zoning and the issues that are presented there and get it right and then we i think we all want the same thing we all want to dynamite we community nobody disagrees with that maybe it's a debate about how we get there but we have to have group good processes for doing that thank you don thank you members any questions to the testifier seeing none thank you thank you  next to testify next signed up to testify is albert per as and he's the last person so far that has signed up to testify anybody else please come down so we can move the meeting a had recommended something a table similar to appendix nine two and the title of that is since been changed but it is true that when you called me into service a resource person i did suggest a table similar to that which i confirmed but this would only work if it were the last step and i would be after the elimination of stacked sone and after we stop the practice of the  misapplication of zoning districts by the planning department stack's zoning is not eliminated appendix nine two will not help to achieve two of the main purposes of the zoning code which i've highlighted and that is to minimize adverse effects on surrounding uses and to stabilize the value property market i just talked about that a little bit and i have made reference before to a memo that former planning director around to the planning commissions where he talked about a workable method of eliminating the stacked sony by recognizing existing uses and updating the community plan and the zoning designations to recognize  those but then it's still going to be important that the planning department stop its practice of allowing the zoning to prevail when it's in conflict with the community plan because every time they do that it could create more nonconform e the planning department apparently believes that having inconsistency between different levels of planning are normal for example on page nine one of this draft of the lanai community plan the current drought states that the zoning code was adopted in one nine hundred sixty so we've been saying that we need to rezone interim lands for fifty five years we need to finish the job so the plant the changes of the planning department submitted are extensive i have lots and lots of notes here on on there are seven pages and lots of changes i would just mention that there are two zones that i would say are stacks that had way too many uses to be fulfilling the purpose owning and i would be heavy industrial and light industrial and also the multifamily know the uses in vision has been changed so that it's pretty much the same as a single family so that doesn't seem right either  i would say that we've heard before that the community plan advisory committees are just advisory but we need to remember that it's the community that's technically true but the council is elected by the people and if the matter was discussed before the community plan advisory committee and they had a chance to weigh in on it then it's fair for the count for the council to have a different opinion collectively but if the community plan advisory committee did not see it in the first place like these recent changes in their opinion should be sought if that's not done you cannot expect and feel like they've been treated fairly especially since the hearings are here and thank you ok and members seeing nobody rushing down to the podium ready to close public testimony objections ok the public testimony is clear let me sa me actually ask the planning department to come up with some comments first thank you chair and good morning again we've heard a lot of important testimony today and in previous meetings and with the department identified themselves yeah just to reinitiate site right jorgensen what we have endeavored to do with the proposed amendments to the table there are two things that we've endeavored to do  is to better explain how community plans and zoning work together when parcels match if you will if when the designations match and also to explain what happens when there is a mismatch of community plans inherit they create mismatches they envision over a twenty year period where residential expansion is going to occur where commercial and industrial expansion is going to occur where changes in land use are imagined over the planning period to accommodate population growth economic considerations except for a so the moment a community plan is adopted you're going to have mismatches you're going to change designations let's say from agriculture to single family or from single family to business and so that's the nature of a community plant those don't become effective immediately because we're talking about a twenty year planning period those community plan designations are established and become effective immediately but in terms of the land uses immediately changing in accordance with those destinations that doesn't happen right away that might not even happen over the twenty year planning period it would depend on if there is a demand for that use that landowner would come in for a change in zoning to change the zoning to comply with that community plan designation but in the meantime we want to be clear what the status of those uses are when there's that mismatch that are that are immediately created when a community plan is adopted it's pretty easy to understand when the designations match and so what we're wanting to clarify is that when they match the use is allowed by the zoning are permitted on that property in less the community plan has language restricting it and in fact in the in a community plan in particular in the land use chapter it describes all the things that the community imagines for those areas and puts parameters and descriptions in them and so if the landowner comes in for a change in zoning for those areas to develop those sites we will look at the community plan language and see that that zoning implements the community plan so we're just trying to say what the process is and has been for decades our concern with the table is that the table lists the matches and again those are the easy scenarios we're worried about mismatch because we're going to have we already have mismatches present day we're going to continue to have even more mismatches after a community plan is adopted and so what we want to clarify is that when you have a mismatch when consider the community plan changes in zoning subdivisions all other agency actions so here's an easy example you have land that's community plan ag and  community plan you say you know that might be where we want residential growth so we're going to change the community plan to single family in the meantime that property is owned agriculture and it can be used for agriculture it can't be developed into a single family subdivision but it can be used for agriculture if that zoning changes to residential then it can be developed for residential purposes same thing if you have a single family community plan residentially zoned and in the community plan you think ok that's where we're going to have some commercial expansion so you change the community plan to business commercial in the meantime it  residential it can continue to be used for residential uses you could get a building permit for a house it's business commercial you couldn't get a building permit for a restaurant or an office but you could for house when the zoning changes to business commercial then you could develop it for commercial purposes so what we're trying to clarify in this language is when the uses match the zoning regulates unless there's language in the community plan that you have to pay attention to when you don't have a match the zoning regulates the land use when you have ministerial permits and all other actions most importantly a change in zoning have to comply residential housing or business or whatever it is they want to do why did we ever create this dissonance why don't we just say ok if the community plan is the driver and it's with the community and the community wants to put it in whatever they want to put in why don't we just change it why do we continue to do this and go through all this craziness of the changing zoning i'm very happy to answer the question and say that because these are intended to be a long term plan and we might not need all of that new residential new business new industrial land all at one time there might be you know he has been booming for a long time but there could be changes in world events where our population decreases our visitor industry decreases and we're not going to need any of that expansion at all we're not going to need those those growth areas that that's one answer the other answer is there are many communities that follow up their community plans immediately with comprehensive zoning but it seems to me that you know i've been dealing with these big thing as long as i've been here i've been on any committee i chaired the general plan committees i'm familiar with all this nonsense it's very confusing to the public nobody can figure this out is confusing to me it must be more confusing to other people but you know we've put all this the lead in we constantly have people coming here to say we want to do something else with it and we know that and a lot of it was designated it was thrown in there because they didn't know what else to call it so it seems to me that we're perpetuating a problem and i don't care how long it takes but if it changes from whatever the community plans to something and we wait then if they want to change it in the meantime create a process so they can change it back but you know if you followed smoothly then we wouldn't have all this dissonance and all of this craziness going on i don't know but you know for anybody to make sense of our laws i'm sorry it's not good and i understand laws were supposed to be that that sounds good and as ms mclean was saying that some locations do that but in our case when we when the community plan says single family we don't have single family zoning we have residential one resident two residential three look like that the community plan and say what we have well then that's then that makes because you don't know at the time you just know that this is going to be single family residence you don't know what size of the lots are going to be or anything like that or even better business when you say business you don't know what kind of businesses you want there you do know what kind you don't want that's why we we do  exclusionary especially when we do changes in zoning here that that's one of the biggest reasons you don't know at the time what you want other than you want single family type residences here and then maybe we should be more general in how we state these things but i think it's clear that communities will say this is where we want to be well in homes of here so whether it's single family or a lot to family or to stir it can st whatever it is saying this is where we want people to live and we don't want people there is pretty clear you know i'm sorry tara but we create issues and when the public accuses us of doing it worked hard to put the plans to bring it to us when you change it or when the department changes and i understand their rationale and what you're trying to do but they feel they're not getting their message across and  i think that's the bottom line you're not getting their message across you're not doing what i'm asking you to do you're just kind of drawing along and doing what you think is going to happen and i grant you're talking twenty years old none of us know twenty years we're told none of us knew  hundred eighty years later we'd have no plantations in the state of hawaii none of us knew that even in the fifty's so i understand change comes but i think every day probably and as well as these people volunteered to help us put this together part of it but i hate to see the next people coming behind us because they're going to have to figure out this got to be some methodology that if the committee says we want this then leave it and zoning whether it comes later or before  i also disagree that we've got to let the community have their shot give us that and then let's finish it because if we can't get one night done in all of this time i we are endeavoring to find the right words to explain how the process works today and how it has worked for decades we are not changing anything we are not undoing what the pack and the commission put forward we are not changing a position or a process from what it has been for decades and as it  was explained to those groups throughout the process mary was telling me that during the discussions she had copies of the zoning ordinance so that they could see the uses allowed by the zoning when they were changing these designations putting that aside we've had discussions in the office about changing the process about following up with comprehensive zoning other municipalities do it the  has long been done here it used to be that the community plans were more general there is much greater public participation now which is fantastic there's much more interest there's a lot more specificity than we saw in the last round of plan so maybe the time is right to look at a different way of approaching it what that means though is the way it is now when we do changes in zoning that's when we look at infrastructure particular to that site there's a lot more analysis that goes into that change at the zoning level than currently happens at the community plan level but perhaps they can be combined i think that would make the plans a lot more meaningful it would mean the update process has a lot more weight its impacts are much more immediate  and maybe the amount of time this is taking would be justified because there would be a much greater result i'm all for that it makes it easier for us the community will see exactly  what they're expecting however that's not where we are today but i would love to see that too it would make it easier for for our department to administer you wouldn't have done in the county before to my understanding not not during my time here but prior to my time it's certainly an option for the council if a community plan is adopted to have a zoning ordinance that's comprehensive that basically would with that would do would immediately rezone all property in that community plan area to be consistent with a community plan my understanding was i'm not sure if this was the last time that comprehensive zoning happened but there was a rural bill that happened in the county which basically went through and said every where you have community plan rural it's going to be considered a certain type of rural zoning and again this was before my time in this is a bit of  legally it is correct notice to property owners is not required in that case that's a comprehensive zoning change and so the zoning council simply resumes the property and then all the permitted use are allowed so i think historically that has been that approach hasn't been taken because perhaps past councils wanted to take a closer look at each of the properties as they're being rezoned rather than do a comprehensive rezoning as applied to this particular community plan and i don't know if that's been discussed you know that the impact of all of the zoning in lanai changing to meet the community plan that  be that would be in issue potentially now they would still need to have a public hearing on the night and you would still as a council need to vote on that zoning but the comprehensive zoning approach i don't think has been taken very often but  it's certainly if the issue is lack of consistency between the community plan and zoning it's probably the most direct approach as far as getting that that matching done to have it done after the community plan and would seem to make sense if the community plan was adopted by the council that there's only would be acceptable to the council who's the same body that's adopting the community plan land use map so it's a consideration but i think just that historical note that properties being re without the owners knowing or without necessarily notice doesn't have to go out to not only to the property owners themselves but you don't have to have noticed to members within five hundred feet as you would for an ad hoc zoning for a particular property  so there's a general notice within the county but a comprehensive zoning ordinance like that doesn't have to go through the same zoning process that a you know it a individual property owner may have to go if they're the one submitting for the zoning so i think historically that's been part of the problem with comprehensive zoning and you know before that's done i think that the pros and cons of this issue should be certainly looked at but it is probably the most direct way to  chief that consistency and that may be a policy issue that we have to to bring to mr victory as for me i want to welcome the presence by the way of chair white and member no one more one more question yet mr hopper i understand what you've just said as far as saw our comprehensive zoning and i think the time is coming in very near future we need to do that again we haven't for many years but my question to you is what is the overarching policy right so what is the overarching policy or argument is it the greedy plants or zoning i'm not trying to be a trick question i really mean people need to know that because is in the issues going to depend on with the action taken is if the action is to zone the property meaning the council is going to implement zoning for their property do a change in zoning or determined zoning for a property then that zoning has to comply with the community plan zoning needs to follow the plan if you're looking at a property owner who is determining what they can do with their property it's going to depend on what permits they need if all they need is a ministerial permit which means that building permit plumbing permit electrical ministerial permit meaning they need a subdivision approval they need an estimate approval they need a change in zoning or any other discretionary approval one doesn't trump the other they have to comply with both so in substance it's going to be whichever is the most restrictive so you would have to comply with your zoning and you have to comply with your community plan you have to comply with both of them one of them doesn't trump the other meaning that oh i'm complying with my community plan now i don't have to  not the case for a discretionary permit you have to comply with both if you need any type of permit other than a ministerial permit if all you need is a building permit meaning that that you are not doing something that has a discretionary approval if it's a it says ministry of actions by agency shall conform to the general plan except for ministerial permits so there's that exception that's been been recognized for a long time so the answer is it if depending on what you're doing this zoning may only apply to you but if you need any type of discretionary approval then both the zoning and the community plan apply to you you have to follow both so it's not really a discussion of one trumping the other in that case it's you've got to comply with both of them so let's say you're let's say you're zoning says you can do a hotel in your community plan says you can't if you need an estimate permit then you can't do it you need it you need a community plan amendment in that case you just blew me we're out of water and i guess the public and i are going to sit here and listen further and try to figure it out but what you're seeing if i'm correct neither one trumps but again my question is where is the starting point the community plan the community plan is supposed to be implemented by zoning that's what's supposed to happen and but because we don't have comprehensive rezoning every single time there's a community plan you have this lag where you have been consistencies with your community plan and zoning if the council adopted comprehensive zoning right after the community plan applied then then at least in theory you shouldn't have any problems because you're zoning you know your zoning for example would be light industrial in your community plan would be light industrial and so you shouldn't have problems but you know the problems you can run into is if you have a property that's community plan park and zone hotel something like that where you have a conflict like that well the would say you're going to resign that park which has other issues with it but if that's not done then you have an inconsistency and so then the question arises would that landowner what can they do with their property and then the issue is if all they need is a ministerial permit then they can go ahead in and do what ever there is owning allows them to do without regard to the community  to even though it's important and i think really helps us try to make good decisions i believe it is really probably where the answer is questions you know one of the unintended consequences of comprehensive zoning that you have run into another municipalities but are there any speaking just in generalisations where other municipalities do comprehensive zoning as a routine follow up that process is geared toward doing the environmental and infrastructure analysis that right now we do parcel by parcel so it's i'm answering the question that way because if we were to do comprehensive zoning it wouldn't be as simple as drawing up a zoning map and putting that forward there would have to be the studies that that this council sees when individual parcels come in you know a traffic analysis on drainage plans things like that  would have to be done in a comprehensive way other municipalities will do their community plans followed up by zoning then at the development level at subdivision or it building permits they do infrastructure and drainage and and so they it would it would sort of flip the order of the way we do things now  i'm answering the question that way because i don't know of any detrimental unintended consequences because they structure it in such a way that all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed just in a different order than we do it now mr harper just what i had mentioned in the past is my understanding that the potential issue is that that the zoning happens and that community members may find out about it after the fact or late in the stage because it doesn't have the same notice requirements that an individual parcel would so so that i think it should be noted not to say that's that's not a i mean that's not a legal issue per se but it's a potential consequence that has been i think raised in the past with comprehensive zoning at least with respect to i think the rural district changes i think in that case they basically be council basically said all property that's community plan rural shall be rezoned two are you point five or something like that and that was just a county wide or basically right and so that can have you know it's legal but you know issues like notice issues and things like that come up when the property next to you is now rolling you know it's it's it's some probably similar to when if like for example to be one business district is that many do allow additional uses notice doesn't necessarily go out to everybody in those communities but they had me have a greater use allowed and that's legal separate unintended consequences that we had to come in and council did in that council initiated change in zoning because we really messed up some people's rights on their property and so we had to fix that so that some of the pitfalls that may happen with comprehensive zoning but i think this one is a policy issue this is something that all nine members should be here and discussing for quite a bit i think  it's something that has been discussed before a previous councils over and over again prior to this i've heard it before and so far the councils have always said no same with stacking we two years ago i think it was a little over two years ago in this very committee we had the issue of stacking we discussed it for the about the tenth time in the history of zoning on maui county this council the council has discussed it and said we still support stacking so that is a moot point in my opinion it's been discussed many many times by many many councils and it has always been stacking is approved for light industrial and heavy industrial so unless everybody wants to come together and somebody bring it up again and take it over you know we're going to second guess ourselves forever so i think stacking is a table that is an issue that is off the table in my opinion it's been discussed ad nauseum ms bias and then  and then i'll be quiet but number one i want to say that i experienced this comprehensive zoning i was a kid when my mother's property was changed by company and since owning and they grumbled ingrown and i read vaguely remember going to these meetings with her but it happened and we live with it i mean it happened and we said well this is the way it is you know that's that's the will of the majority so we went with a fire is unintended or people not being notified that not knowing so we do the best we can and i don't think we can ever so that a third thing is you know we're dealing right now this community is reeling with the issue of housing and how much housing costs and i watched on t stoning but maybe you know we should do it it might have some impact on the cost of housing and i'll leave it at that thank you ok mr cochran i agree with you on unstacking because i think it's any time we have a use that somebody wants to put to a lesser use or lesser density that that's ok  if you look at one of the industrial parcels that we've got have restaurants there why are they there because the rent search are cheaper or they can build their own place and not have to move into a place that somebody else is built in commercial at a much higher rent or at much higher cost for the land so i think there are a lot of beneficiaries throughout the county that we can look at that have  advantage of the ability to stack and quite frankly i don't think anyone would would complain if there was a hotel parcel on which somebody wanted to build a house and we have those so it's that of a problem no i don't i don't think anyone would see that as a problem so i i fully support the direction the the department is is going because it it does comport with the way things have been done for a long long time having gone through various processes including s m a myself it's a very tough process nobody gets a pass nobody gets an easy road we had we just went through approval for fourteen units to be added to a nineteen room property in one hina and it took thirty months and about one hundred ninety thousand dollars to do that so when i look at the process this council in order in order to support our need for additional housing in order to support economic growth that you know that we need to be looking out especially within outspent we heard yesterday regarding cns we need to have some of a plenty department of this fleet footed and able to address our need to provide housing and i need to provide for additional economic growth in a way that is going to provide at least some level of predictability to investors otherwise we're going to be sitting here twiddling our thumbs with the same problems year after year after year so i totally support what the department is recommending i understand that there are people in the community that want to keep everything at a level that's much more difficult but i think we do that by presenting a community plan without comprehensive because they still need to come through and get the property if they want to change the use so i think we've made it as about as difficult as any community has and i'd like to see us make it a little bit easier maybe comprehensive zoning is the way to go but i think this is a reasonable a reasonable for now and i know that everybody's in agreement with that but i'm for making it a little bit more predictable a little less time  and i am liking it it's just the part about non notification so if there's a way that we can change that verbiage in that tape but you know if that part if it is ours we can notify people on the way i think that guided based upon all the things that comprehensive zoning talks about which is your infrastructure water sewage roads i mean on and on everything that developments need to relate to development so we're supposed to be taking all this in as we plan anyway even if we're doing it piecemeal and parcel by parcel so in a sense we're supposed to be looking all this stuff anyways to fit appropriately where we want curb and where we want you know it cetera so i don't see a huge difference between how we're supposed to be doing this and what comprehensive zoning does as a whole and then i'm trying to track where are citizen  it just says citizens advisory you know and then accepted by and there you have your general plan doesn't quite work out that way so i'm trying to decipher because that i'm hearing the recommend was view first by the planning commission and they had the opportunity to comment at that time and and everything that the planning department our recommendations was visible to the public and the sea pack and the plan and the planning commission as it was only trans transmitted over to you each time planning department makes recommendations they're posted online they're visible there in the  submitted to your committee so my understanding of the process is that the council has all those changes and the public has the opportunity  to to comment on those changes at any time and then in the end it comes out to as one document that is a county document that represents the desires and recommendations of the community and to go along with that if you take a look at at the end of every community plan that's the online if you look at the back of the p there's the matrix of this is what the community plan advisory committee said this is a planning commission said this is what the planning department recommendations were in this is what council did and in at least in the key  c community plan fifty percent of what the community plan advisory committee said council said no changed so ultimately it's this council's final decision ok and at least in the something that we can discuss it probably mr vick during his committee you take away the community's voice because if you do individual rezoning after the community plan on each parcel or each area that's being rezoned it comes back to the community two times once at planning commission and once here ok if you do comprehensive rezoning those two times are gone just a comment sometimes comprehensive only may not be a good thing i'm fine either way whichever way you want to go but it thank you i actually worked for council services when a number of comprehensive zoning efforts came through the first was after the last round of community plans were adopted there was an effort to  properties only in the urban district that were zoned interim so this was predominantly around the small towns and so was established to be consistent with the community plan and that's the one i think you were referring to the problem with that is that the community plan map there was a mapping error on the community plan map and so the zoning matched that error and so there was not only a community planning or there was also a zoning error that council initiated to correct that and the reason there were two reasons that was done number one because the community plans had just been updated so it was very clear what designated what designations were wanted for those areas but secondly it was very difficult for those property owners to do with their property what they had always understood they were able to do but because they were interi and they were hamstrung particularly business uses the rural bill was necessary because we had land zoning maps that said rural on them but there were no standards in the county code and so when people came in to subdivide we didn't know what standards to apply to them and so the rural bill not only created the rural chapter in title nineteen it also comprehensive le own lands so that that language would now apply to them when the comprehensive ag zoning was established that there were a few reasons that that came about that's when gentlemen's estates were starting to proliferate on the one hand we had this unlimited subdivision potential and then all of a sudden there was no subdivision potential whatsoever it was very very confusing plus we didn't have well established ag standards in the county code ag created a new ag district and then comprehensively zoned following the community plan with what's been discussed here and actually council member crew fellow has initiated his own change for for a certain property because there's been problems for that property owner council can initiate changes in zoning and may be looking at the housing issue perhaps after a community plan is updated you would want to initiate a comprehensive zoning just for the new single family designations maybe council could look region by region and say what's the need in this region and let's initiate comprehensive zoning to target that problem just like what has been done in the past there were problems with urban interim there were problems with rural there were problems with ag and that comprehensive zoning was an effort to to to address those so that might be an option rather than redoing everything all in one shot of targeting it toward what the need is members of the questions i am sorry to ask you this but i think it'll help i'm trying to focus on the work we need to do today because you know we're getting into this wonderful discussion about a lot of philosophical things but i know you want us to accomplish something yes can you clearly try as best you can from your perspective to experience what it is you want us to for today i would like to but other people may not consider them minor that's the only thing that we have two things left three things environmental management department of environmental management wanted some changes to dates because the dates  so that's not a problem any other recommendations anybody else wants and then that table them are done just so you know we're done but the big thing is going to be that table ok now understand this correctly these changes that you're asking us to take care of today so we can pass this on the people on the nightly advisory committee or i don't know what you what you've got is that dave feel that they don't want to happen because they haven't had a chance to come on it correct i'm just i'm sorry i'm carrying out i'm trying to focus on what is what are we doing here today correct ok thank you very much i'm clearer now ok given that clarity maybe it is now time for a mid morning break if we want to take seven minutes eight minutes if you could be back here by ten thirty because we're going to lose a member at ten forty five so be back here at ten thirty and we can move on this so we are now in environmental men environmental management had some concerns so let's see if we can get those taken care of we received a report written correspondence from the d m did in november twenty fifth recommending minor revisions a copy of those recommendations are in your materials we have so many materials so i give you a chance to take a look at it it's dated november twenty fifth from the department of environmental management where would that be in the a way it changes some dates i'm going to find it in my november twenty fifth two thousand and fifteen where it says i don't know if you have found it yet but i can read it to basically says on page seven dash ten which is under solid waste in your you can look in your november seventeenth version of the actual immunity plan but if you look at page seven  word says landfill receives fourteen tons of solid waste per day as and as forecasted to reach capacity by two thousand and twenty that should be twenty twenty four that's one of the two changes they want to make and then under issues of strategy the landfill is nearing capacity the estimated lifespan is now they want to just s i community plant update is twenty it's used twenty twenty nine is the landfill closure date sorry not twenty twenty four twenty twenty nine it's kind of terry looking to do this through consensus yes so given that other then table my dash to has anybody else got any concerns revisions seeing nine let's discuss table nine dash two all right i believe the department has handed out their their final suggested language this is some suggested language that they wanted i believe you all have it that's the what this is the changes to enter doc tree language ok and the one that is that we really need to discuss talks about that whole paragraph mr crane you want to give us an update on that thank you chair i think it was on december twenty ninth  that posted on the website were a couple of text changes to the first three pages of the land use chapter and then text changes to the table throughout the table and then what was just distributed today was some refining language that corporation counsel recommended to us yesterday  the purpose of the changes as i had described before is to really trying our best to clarify the process as it exists today and as it has existed for decades and to explain the difference between community plans and zoning and and mike did a great job or earlier in response to council member victory knows question of when community plans we've feel very confident that these concepts were discussed throughout the process and really we have an entire long range division of dedicated professionals whose primary focus is doing  when that is actually the predominant reason that this entire division exists is is simply silly and it's it's somewhat hurtful really we respect the opinions of all those who have testified in their input is very valuable but what they've been saying just isn't the case that where and doing things are disregarding the community's input we're simply trying to clarify what has been done for decades so that there isn't any more confusion about it because clearly there is confusion so in essence the specially the second paragraph you're pretty much putting into words as best as you can add what it took us an hour to discuss and that's how yes and that's how complicated it is that it takes that much discussion and that's why we feel it's important to make it clear  comfortable because it states discretionary actions by government agencies such as a change in zoning shall conform to the community planned so you know if their concern is following the community plan that statement right there says that they shall conform so they were it makes me comfortable with that the department is asking for something is reasonable i think this does explain it much more clearly them than leaving it unsaid so i'm ok ok and members further i mean that that was the initial paragraph let's talk about that first if there are concerns let's hear him now in the suggested changes the questions concerns are we consensus that this is ok mr hopper just wanted to clarify any misapprehension or misunderstanding with the first paragraph is as i understand it there's language that says unless specifically prohibited the use is permitted by zoning and the standards of the typical zoning district apply to the corresponding community plan designations that last phrase corresponding community plan designations is very important it is not saying that in all cases the use is allowed by the zoning are considered consistent with would ever the community plan designation is is basically saying that on the table below if for example you are your community plan does nation is agriculture  then the uses allowed by your zoning are considered consistent with that community plan does as set forth in the table it's not saying that whatever your zoning is the uses a lot in the zoning are considered consistent with your community plan in all cases so that's not what it is so if your community plan park and yours owning is a hotel that's not considered every use in the hotel district is consistent with your park district i think that's an important distinction and that's why the wording of corresponding community plan designation is used there again if all that is required is a ministerial permit then zoning is what determines the uses and that's clarified below but if anything other than a ministerial permit is required a discretionary action then both the community plan and the zoning would  apply again that's how the department has been applying these plans and how based on legislative history and the language of the code the council intends those plans to be utilized if there's a problem confusion with the language it should be cleaned up to say that basically but i think that's the in the intention as as explained ok and that's when you say legislative history etc you're talking about since ever all permits including ministerial permits had to comply with the community plan and that was rejected by the council and the reason was at least based on the record was that there was a concern of all building permits having to be reviewed for community community plan does not apply with the force and effect of law with respect to a ministerial permit only and so that's already in the code and that's what i meant by legislative history in that this issue has been discussed and you know in the council has looked at that dealing with if the plans have the corresponding designation meaning agriculture agriculture etc then the use is allowed in the zoning or considered the use is allowed in that category meaning agriculture business etc those are considered consistent with the community plan and that's always been the case as well as as far the reading of the plans but this would clarify that more again there's a problem with that if there's a desire for the community plan to be more restrictive then the zoning cases that's something that would need to be discussed in and dealt with in this table ok and just for the members  clarification maybe it says it less specifically prohibited the use is permitted by zoning the standard is a typical zoning discus applied to the corresponding community plan designations there was concern about unless specifically prohibited and i can tell you that in the one nine hundred ninety eight key in the kind of community plan there are some areas that it was specifically prohibited so this isn't something new this is just putting into writing what's been happening for decades so you know because we've had different interpretations because it can be loosely interpreted in a different way we're trying i think we've had very as clear as we can have a very clear discussion today and so there would be one word smithing change to be perfectly consistent with what mike has explain d where in the second paragraph about halfway down talks about it ministry of actions that should be changed to only ministerial permits because that's the language it that sentence references the appropriate section of to a to b but rather than say administrative actions which is a little broader than only ministerial permits then we would be section two point eight zero b point zero three zero point b county code if a property is community plan use designation zoning do not correspond is listed in the table below the property zoning regulates the uses and standards a lot of the property only when ministerial actions by government agencies are required it would say when only when only certain ministerial permits by government agents also required hopper this is an important change because right now it's not accurate because now it says the zoning is the only thing that regulates if administrative actions are required and that's not the case right now to a t v says administrative actions shall comply with the general plan except for ministerial permits ok and give some examples so the general rules that it does apply and there's the exceptions being the ministerial permits ok members is that clear so  i'm even more comfortable now ok i think i think we're we are putting in writing what's been going on and i think that's appropriate i think that's something that we should be comfortable supporting right and the comments so do we have consensus and started ok all right so then that's the most important part now can you talk to us a little bit mr mclean about this uses in vision bers versus description and the use of the word in vision and what not in there please yes this is intended to again convey a what these plans are that they are the uses that are in vision over the planning period  and that in the example i'll give an example when we have these typical matching county zoning districts some of those districts allow uses that are related incompatible to that primary use but are are consistent and supportive of those main uses the best example is single family and residential so in the single family community plan designation flip a head or that's all the way at the end of the table where it says we're recommending it say in visions single family duplex  dwellings and related incompatible uses without that broader language if you establish the zoning as the matching zoning that are listed here any of the residential districts those residential districts allow single family homes they also allow part they allow schools and so if you have single family community plan residential zoning we believe that it would be perfectly fine to build a school or build a park if that community plan designation doesn't allow for those related incompatible uses there's a concern that that might not be consistent with the community plan and we want to establish that that would be consistent with the community plan because the zoning districts can be broader than just single family so this is a tough one because you know single family the initial comma or the initial language was single family basically includes single family duplex and o dwellings actually didn't even say on it both ways before we've added that there have been arguments that ok a school or a park or a nursery or a say i think there's nine different things that are not single family homes there it's been told to this chair that yes those are not conforming and we wanted that way but you know we won't ask that that be enforced not  exact words but so the idea is to say look it's a single family duplex ohana dollars and related compatible uses a store is not a related compatible use a house hotel is not a related compatible use but a park a church a nursery maybe a related compatible use that's why we have that language in there any questions any concerns so are we ok with the language as presented by the in the table now ok that's the last thing unless anybody else has any other comments or concerns that's the last thing yes miss bison yes chair i just want to say this because i think it's important we're trying to make some you know decisions here that are going to wrap this up and before we make those decisions and wrap them up i want to ask you to explain if we do this and people are still concerned about the decisions that we make what will be there up or to need to comment further ok should this pass out today what happens as a committee report gets written gets submitted to coun to recommend a public hearing and that's we have to by law we have to have a public hearing on what i sold the committee report will state that we're recommending a public hearing on law and i we will go to  the public hearing as a counselor or recommend that the council holds that so that's up to the chair as to when we do all that go to law and i eat they can they can discuss it at that first council meeting where it's recommending to go to lan night they can discuss it and it's the chairs does desire but it's ultimately up to the clerk and the council chair is to have the first reading on the night as well so people online not you can have two opportunities on the one opportunity here before it gets to second reading and then that second meeting there's another opportunity so there's fire for more opportunities for public comment and potential changes and that's very important that i know that and that the public know that i think because that makes me a little more comfortable if i have any unease that there will be more opportunities for people who might question what we're doing and not be happy with it we'll still have an opportunity to comment and for us to dissent thank you members any other comments ms cochran and so just by hearing your breakdown on the process is that your intent for all the other districts that's a requirement by by law for all the other districts for first reading hearings and everything ok going to let ninety for the first reading other community plans is that we go out like we did to let i e and have several committee meeting sarah and i certainly like the format that we did in the june twenty third meeting and i think we'll try and do that more often less formal setting to recommend one that a public hearing be held on the revised proposed bill entitled a bill for an ordinance amending section two point eight zero b point zero seven zero maui county code to adopt the updated community plan incorporating as exhibit one the document entitled love my community plan two thousand and fifteen colon maui county general plan to twenty thirty county of maui transmitted by correspondence dated december eleventh two thousand and fifteen from the department corporation counsel along with any revisions made by the committee at today's meeting in any non substantive revisions and number two that the revised proposed bill entitled a bill for an ordinance amending section two point eight zero b point zero seven zero maui county code to adopt the updated community plan incorporating as exhibit one the document in title and i community plan to twenty fifteen maui county general plan twenty thirty county of maui transmitted by correspondence dated december eleventh two thousand and fifteen from the department of corporation counsel along with vision is made by the committee at today's meeting and any non substandard revisions be scheduled for passage on first reading following the public hearing and three filing of county communication fourteen two eight three ok it's been moved by member carol and seconded by chair white to recommend that a public airing on the revised proposed bill be held passage of the revised proposed bill on first reading following the public hearing as noted and filing in the county communication any discussion i just want to say members thank you this is a tough one this is the first one we've learned a lot of stuff hopefully we will be a little bit easier and i appreciate ms cavallo being here is to see the process hopefully she'll take some of that information back to look i even we can get through this a little bit better it's a process it's a new process first time so so i appreciate it to the night people that when i came in the plan advis committee thank you so much for your comments it is difficult there's never going to be one hundred percent agreement on anything and we understand that you have an issue with the water and we to make sure that that issue is taken care of and members you know it's fitting but it's also sad you know this this one cost more than time it cost a couple lives on this one so i want to remember that that's coming up this was a hard fought one and hopefully we'll get a consensus and we will get this passed and we can move on and do the rest of the communities in such a fashion if not faster fashion so i appreciate that any other comments hearing on all those in favor please say i opposed at the record show that there are one two three four five eyes and two excuse member who's men and mr victory you know thank you so much members it's hard and we will be still getting comments so take them to heart let's see what we can do if there are still further concerns but at this point thank you so much staff you guys have been willing to hang with us as long as we've done it over a year i really appreciate it and we're starting off at a good new year so this meeting is