and then the trade case and then we will bring fully the churn for a few minutes and then return with the slightly modified and all no list distinguished six month period i believe they end right at that six month period as well ok so it seems to me a little difficult for the government to do anything to come into compliance with the statute in the six month period what do you understand is the situation with respect to the new agreements that would come into effect after the six month period is over but as i understand right now the government has not entirely clear whether the governor would have to comply with the rules too but that bond between the government and those that still would be able to be that allow them to contract together with each other it would be back again and i think that would end and bring in all those requirements that were in our complaint that we were worried about that would be washed away that being said there's nothing that has committed the government to carrying on with these solicitations guys you know the government withdraws solicitation they can can the formulary from scratch but if you look at the current going to today there are some holdover from what do you mean by the word formular so that's the list so what happens is is the government and the current system the one that we're challenging right now the government and the prime vendors essentially get together decide what products they want on a list that the hospitals can order from and not list the products is called the formulary and the parameters of the four contract hold that's correct and they're the ones who go out and find these subcontractors affine the distributors are finding manufacturers in order to bring those manufacturers to the government with the price the proposed price proposed product and say we think this should be on the list but the os told a price they presumably can ask the prime vendor how they got to that price but there's no requirement in the contracts that the prime vendor disclose anything about how they got to that price so i suppose we were to agree with the court federal claims and say ok because of the public interest factor there's nothing we can do with respect to this contract which expires on six months from now what is your position as to what we should do under those circumstances i think there's  two issues with that one the it's our pity that the decision at the court proclaims gives the government too much leeway to decide something because they've made a blanket statement in a justification that veterans lives would be harmed or the system is the only way to go when their current there are obviously other systems to use but what we were asking for at the quarter for all claims is just to keep the status quo the v a was using a system that was not working perfectly but as they've made it in the chain a that was working perfectly because they had management problems and they had problems issuing solicitations and their method of issuing solicitations according to industry which was incorrect and it's that fixing that problem they went off in a completely different direction but i don't i don't think you really you know you're really addressing my question i'm i'm asking you to assume hypothetically and i'm sure you don't like the hypothetical but that we agree with the corporate ones those a matter of public interest  would i would want that or two to say essentially roll that this kind of action by the government even though because there's six months left me the court is constrained that these kind of actions by the know whether another government is going to continue to use the formula every while they take the time competitively to populate thirty thousand dollars and if the record is true from a parish it would say if you want to have  little bit more success than that but they haven't had much success since it's only about fifteen thousand i don't know the hi hi anderson that when they got the list populated up around six thousand or something like that ninety percent of those had not been done by competition that's correct your honor so when they populate of the list initially they rely on using community methods that are individually having granted a one by one who write write that but but folks had an opportunity to challenge that they thought that was unlawful in some respects and there little they one thing want a couple few things happened one the v a came went to the prime vendors and provide them information about manufacturers and suppliers and things like that but also these these companies were not constrained by having to run a competition having to follow the law that was our point they didn't have to look at the rules to decide we have to look at s t p u s p s st or we don't have to have any kind of competition all there's no protest it's a very clean it's a to us to think about is that yes the court did find that we had success in the merits and found that there was irreparable harm but the balance the equities of course and the public interest as we've been discussing of them were weighed in the government's favor posit that there was not a basis in the record to find that we had moved to supplement the ministry of record because when we received the ministry of record there was no evidence that the v a hadn't gone under any deliberative process to determine whether this method was the not in the mix they had no knowledge of ross that list would've been a lot bigger and even that document that you're your honour's referring to on page three hundred and two the next page it says no distributor will agree to this without data on the supplies to be pure or no one can buy inventory of the why does the government have to have more in the way of research as to whether or not these four companies will be successful when we know from the track record that they were a success because the government was asking them to do a lot more than then than but that they didn't have the capacity to go out and find a lot of new suppliers which is what the government was asking them to do they didn't necessarily have that capacity may have had it but the government certainly didn't investigate and there's no evidence that they did  proclaims was was incorrect and evaluating the public interest but that because it was late it's later in the game there's not much that this court can do about it but i still posit that there is a lot that this court can do about it  it may wind up being technically it may be a finding that that that as we stand now there is a public interest in maintaining the system as it is even if it is unlawful as the court found that started driving down but and that's with station does not include this modification this this special modification was put into effect they centrally needed that master list plus one master list each of the prime vendors because now the prime vendors were proposing supplies only for their jurisdiction so each one in a sense had  with the prime vendors have to contract with the suppliers directly and so presumably whilst those contracts that they've entered into are only for the duration of their own time right yeah i assume that's the case if you have a new prime population of the west which seems to me to be something different than the existence of contracts between the prime vendors and the sub in it if we everybody seems to assume that the the new prime vendors will have to make contracts with the suppliers as it worked under the you know the pre modifications as it worked into the system all along that was a somewhat isn't it of what isn't and what is the new solicitations say time is running out i have one final comment on that well the record of federal claims ruled that this this temporary solution to fix the supply chain to give the v a time to make all the corrections that we've been talking about about the corrections in the proper leadership the correction in bundling the goods to increase the supply the master list record and the clinical byan all the things that the g a o would mention that the da agrees are necessary but those are long distributed to the hospitals in the future and you know that the v a plans to have distributors that probably kind of are restricted birds of the country and just like in the olden days the distributor warehouse was the things of the v a feels it apply with the the new solicitation it goes back to the old system which will follow as the law and if it doesn't there can be another big protest at that time for that contract process it has to follow the laws of putting the rule d of two then the supplier uses that blanket purchase agreement to make its own agreement with the i'm sorry the prime vendor uses that agreement to make its own agreement with the supplier a is going to contract with prime vendors who are going to acquire the supplies from sub vendors and that you're going to comply with the war and contracting with the prime vendors but it's not your business how the master list is populated so that we have the prime vendor contract that before the modification and now in the new one are are just owners distribute warehousing and distributors yes so that this case is about how that master list is populated and in the new system like the pre modification system the v a is going to populate it using existing agreements or new agreements that it negotiates with suppliers once it negotiates that i appreciate the time i would like to refer to such a focus on your question about why we're here today which is this is an appeal of the harms determination of weighing up the harms play to succeed on the merits we're going found that the modification i do not know the details of every step of each of those contracts your honor whatever the prime minister conflicts with the vietnam ability to supply through this process only runs through april the v a has already solicited and has on the street twenty eight dollars separate supply contracts it was contract in our twenty eight separate solicitations already out there complying with the rule to seeking new suppliers this list agents have been out plaintiff's clients to the extent they supply such services can compete under those list of patients or if they have a problem with those solicitations they i'm right but these are commercial companies that the government is doing business with here and so they have other customers in addition to the government customers and so if that if there are there's a huge supply of needles there as there are also commercial hospitals that might need to have that if the new solicitation for the new prime vendor distributor contracts and for the new twenty eight supply contracts that mr sack or burke referenced if that is not complete then it is possible well it's almost a problem i mean if  that we need here are all the surgical items that we need so that they can get these big groups part of the problem that they had the last time around was they would put out a solicitation and say who can provide us with the size of point one needle and every once that would say i don't want to bid on that it's just one have a couple quick points with respect to the current state of the formulary if you look at their a website the v a has has an updated formulary right on it and as of today for each prime vendor there's about twenty thousand dollars products on the former so it's not quite sixty maybe add them together i've been following that actually pretty closely and i thought that was why they withdrew the solicitation ridgeley but they reissued it but there it seems like they may be carving out some of the business in the northwest and in chicago so i think it's still all the whole possibly i wouldn't want to paint myself into a legal corner of this point but i could see that being an argument that the o j case the government would certainly raise and that's something that's that's a hurdle that we certainly have to overcome the process because one of the arguments that the government made