five there's be a public hearing a discussion of the future use of the old fire station in the building at twenty one market street seven thirty five another public carrying a liquor license regulations proposed amendment eight o'clock town council and we will review the september legal services eight ten release golland will update us on the parking lot lottery as well as the revenue production projections it forty time notice the board of selectmen has scheduled a public hearing on tuesday nov ninth two thousand and ten at seven thirty five p m in the intro end of a gala junior meeting room town hall forty south street the purpose of the hearing is discuss a propos amendment to the rules and regulations of holders of alcoholic beverage licenses in the town of foxborough which is to add a new paragraph twenty one to read as follows as a may first two thousand and eleven no person may sell or serve  the reporter who would normally does that was not able to to do it to a personal situation so we couldn't get it rescheduled in time before the publication of the paper before tonight so we were able to a notice out to the public in general with a news story so my suggestion i don't think this is going to be the last time i'm going to want to talk about right now doing that with the planning board last week and we had a very extensive discussion and i know they're here tonight and all that and i think you're probably going to want to have additional discussions about this and so maybe whatever forum you decide to bring this to after tonight we can do the paper offered to do a follow up story where we could get the word out and then have a gauge the public again so i can just give a an overview for the public who's doing and here  the town to us that review committee was formed last year we've been reviewing different town on properties to determine if any of them can be brought back on the tax rolls there are a number of town all parcels that have time to be sold via auction since they were taken by tax title most recently the focus of our committee has been on the preparation of a process to auction off that small number of parcels that were taken by tax title not only will these parcels bring not only will this bring them back on the tax roll generating a new revenue stream for funding of our operations properties will also generate proceeds from the auction that can be used to help fund the much needed renovation program for the town hall the town has recently acquired the property at twenty one market street adjacent to the fire station by tax title after a discussion about the market and review with kevin pecos committee decided that we haven't or that having an auction that includes both properties would be a sensible approach to consider for disposition of the parcels as part of the auction process the properties can be auctioned off individually first and then offered as a bid for a bit as a package the properties could be offered to the higher bidder on the combine lots of the offers combined exceeded the grand total of the two individual parcels still there are a number of steps that need to be accomplished for us to get to the point of that auction right now we have through our research discovered that former fire station rests two individual parcel of land one parcel was taken by tax title therefore qualifies to be auction the other parcel is to town own property therefore must go through the request for proposal process for sale so in our discussion we talked about in order to be able to auction off these parcels together the town will need to seek a home rule petition that will permit the sale to occur under this format placeholders is on the warran expression town meeting if one is convened and there will be future updates on all the other steps necessary to go to auction our committee recognizes that a very important part of this process is to open up dialogue with the public for ideas of what could be proposed for this prime piece of real estate in our town maintaining the character of the common must be taken into consideration for that reason we are looking for input from the public and thought it only appropriate to start discussions with the historical commission we also i'd like to say is on these types of studies we are very very happy and very willing to participate in any discussions here and proposals on however i mean focuses on preservation restoration they may be some terrific ideas commercially but that's not what are our responsibility the other thing i mentioned in this little or even put together by myself my grandfather william r lewis was there when the design and build the fire station with cultural resources a mentor and just news from the second on those the mattresses massachusetts cultural resource information system that's maintained by the secretary of state's office and towns had to that list properties that they believe have historic value if we have a property listed on makris then that means that has to go through a review by historical commission that review may just be a rubber stamp or it may be a lengthy process depending on how we view that building in this particular case the twenty one mica street property is one macro it is on the father's cultural resources and tor that means that if the full commission should determine that it's historically significant and in addition it should be perfectly preserved then the demolition delayed by work that doesn't mean that implement that in most cases we don't but that is there so you should be aware that if you want more detail on that if you look on the foxboro town website and historical commission you'll find some discussion on the demolition of a by law and the mattress in some listings the second thing is for whatever reason i'm not quite sure the fire station is not listed either on macas or on the  tory that's probably because those haven't been updated except for baker street from us thirty years it's a project we've got in the works but so that's probably why it isn't fair but from a technical point of view twenty one market fire station is not and beyond that the only thing i can do is to say that we're very very happy to participate make suggestions or be involved but it does have to be limited to the purpose which is historic preservation i just  so that's all i can add to tonight and i'm happy to contribute any way i can in the future  opportunity to put restrictions on the process if it's by auction restrictions can be placed of its r p restrictions i think the concern with wanting input from the store commission  we can sell the property but we can still require that historic aspects of the property be maintained and it's important i think for the board to hear from the commission in terms of what you would like to see retained and there is a list or you put it in a me something so that that can be incorporated into the sale document whatever that looks like otherwise without those considerations we could very easily end up selling the building and once we sell it anything any conditions that we don't list we can't impose and so we could easily end up with well the reason i think we need to proceed so carefully is we could easily end up selling it and end up with something that the community is not happy with so the only way to prevent that is to be sure that we get good input from the boards and commissions and all citizens that say specifically please be sure that this little problematic at the criteria requires that the developer the application put forth the u s which  appropriate for that district problem is the developer had it's got to be sold first and then the developers come for the permit  planning board gets is involved in this and there's a design review committee because it's in the design district so there's a lot of all oversight of these off to be put in the conditions once it's in the hands of a developer without that law because it really gives the town solid control over miscible property is going to be sold in terms of what you're going to allow for free use however the way it was written it clearly intic that somebody comes to the town and says i found this piece of time property i'd like to buy it here's what i propose to do that by law probably predates the provisions of thirty  chicken and egg problem and it's going to be interesting trying to figure out how we're going to do it because the one by law says you've got to know before you sell the property what the developer proposes and the other provision f public property says you can limit you can provide limitations to the sale that you have to sell the property with without having definitive answer so that is that we've got to we've got a real clash of two so we're going to work through that that's going to be interesting but it gives you a real nice tool bear in mind so let me just illustrate let's say we sold the property by auction auction or appears he says we're going to sell the property with these conditions he has the auction closes quit talking thing there bangs the gavel he's got the property they have now bought the property from the town paid a fee on subject to conditions that we would impose now after the sale they come to the board for the reuse permit the question is exactly how much can you regulate them now after the fact when you've already sold the property to them so we have a little bit of a would you like for i mean you know i think that i just don't tell you what kevin was just saying i think that there are other things that we can do that would probably be useful to the process anyway i mean if you th town has already done a couple of different types of overlay districts one of them is the economic overlay test or the other one is the sea pod where the state hospital is and if we go through that prior there also it's all going to depend on how quickly the community where the selection or whomever decide they want to you know some of the properties i think that clearly we should all be thinking about what it is we'd like to see there what we'd like to restrict there if there are things like that and then create you know an opportunity there that the developer will have to live within certain guidelines even with that happening i mean i can tell you just from the experience we've had at the state hospital there's been given take the things that you design for the community there that the community that we wanted to develop there with through the developer you know things change originally there was going to be a bit of a large you know medical component there is one now but it kind of went through the back door with characters taking up office space i suppose us building a medical arts building you know that you know we saw an opportunity with the developer to say we'll expand the amount of  available office space because it's good for the town you know it's better for the tax base there's less reason for us to hire additional infrastructure to manage the business side supposed to you know the residential side of things like that so that you know you have to leave enough wiggle room within the document for someone to get creative and do it but have enough restrictions on it so that they can create something that the community would really be unhappy with but i certainly don't we speak for myself i think this protect those two assets but still it's a very key every year everybody is right it's right on the common it's a it's it's prime real estate in the positive part of that is hopefully will get a very good price for the properties when we sell them but we want to be what we wanted to be there's a lot of other complex issues there traffic issues cultural issues that the church the library you know other things the better right and that sort of courage of tom and that we have you think i think you have to take into consideration you know it's complicated they're going to have to also take a slightly larger view than just these properties we presume that eventually will resolve our downtown in this piece should be part of that total plan the poor we sell are often find that we've done something consistent so i think you know the downtown redevelopment process has got to be part of this and again or that where they come to an overlay or white afterwards time will tell but that's a factor at work make sure we consider the point question just in terms of the bylaws issue is that something that would need to be amended and we could you know do that for the upcoming special meeting it might well be the case that we end up having to amend it in order to make it consistent with b i would suggest to the board that it's unlikely we would have that done in time later in the agenda i'm going to advise you on what realistically or dates to look out for the special  and therefore realistically what would be good closing deadlines and those are coming real fast and i think we have time to do it so that it's probably more than usual time meeting issue but i think you're on the right track i think there's probably going to need to be an amendment low you certainly get a quick hit when you sell something and you can use the money in there is just probably a whole line of things that you can put the money towards but once a property is gone it's gone and in good luck trying to for a time to get a piece of property back you'll never get it back from the comment at a reasonable price so i my position is to be a little more cautious that the cycle will come back and the super will happen and that market's going to dictate the price to come out of balance that against a few tax dollars that you can get if somebody moved in build it in the next couple years you get some tax money whether it's not specifically talking about the fire station but any property that the town has and into russia pieces owning for the time meeting just for that where i think the playing boys looked at zoning through that whole area for off and on for a long period of time and parking and do we want residential do we want to mix so right side it's kind of a bigger picture than just the fire station right just just one thought to think of this in terms of grades historic lows probably for real estate but by the same token it's probably let's say we use the funds to do all over town hall plan ready to go so that we would be taking that money and using it at a word we'd be selling the property at the low and i think was a while a distance from knowing what we want to do maybe we can exhaust is that a town used for it in the meantime something and other d p w uses it but keep it going until the market comes up and we have had a chance to kind of reevaluated  if it sounds like there's kind of a consensus building that we need to move slowly on this and be sure that whatever happens is consistent with what what the community wants you're not stuck with having buildings that are that are not being used and it appear poorly especially buildings in a sensitive location you know we have options in terms of we can we can make them look better ourselves  can lease them for short periods of time for commercial uses and make some financial gain and require the less sort of you know to make improvements so there are things we can do during that period of time we were evaluating this it's really just a matter of  getting the board's input about how you want to proceed you know you're thinking a cell next year or you know rethinking a lot more long term the other nice thing about being a town is we can take advantage of those cycles that you're talking about  we can you know do a town hall project when the market is down and take advantage of the very good pricing that that we we just got on doing a couple tries x and would continue to get and hang on to the property and wait for the economic cycle to recover and sell it you know buy cheap sell dear is that you know the most tried and true principle account to lose and so we've got the ability to do it we can't do it personally most of us at the time can do it so there's another you know that's in play too it's all up to you guys as opposed to i know the committee was looking at some of buildable lots which are probably the best use for them is residential lots and those you can you know they're not sensitive historically those that's something maybe you can do right away and get whatever value you can but this obviously is this is different out here right now the the actual interviews with the different departments in terms of the town hall renovation design development they are ongoing i don't think employees are very excited to be being asked what space right i'm in star and so i think you know that process will continue and i think you know as we as i said you know there are a lot of steps and we have a lot of discussions that we have to have i feel certainly the sense of urgency from the employees in the town hall is to making this process move so i think that's something we have to weigh also but definitely want to make sure we do this right we should if you want to get thanks thank you thank you anybody else have something to say  you have to come up to the microphone micro evaluation prior to arching the building to advise the builders that we need to spend money upfront but as part of the auction process is just a question and i don't know what the yanks are so it's a good it specialists and those kinds of issues you can make that part of the sale process by noting that those things are present or you can make it part of the so process the buyer beware and you noting the possibility because the a story nature the building you can do it in a variety of ways but in terms of the physical property itself you're required to do it twenty one he tear to assessment those usually are properties i doubt would want about five thousand dollars i would guess seventy and it might be something we'd want to do sooner rather than later because if there is a problem we want to known and get on with the clean up i'll make a note to put that in for the  and i'm on the conservation commission and i don't necessarily have problems with the two properties he's talking about tonight but as you probably have heard me talk before i am an open that ok at the present time we are working on our open space and recreation plan and we're developing a map and we're looking at contiguous properties and how we would develop our recreation in the future and things like that so my concern is the other parcels that you have on your left i'm concerned about preserving those as open space for our town and i think that based on the open space survey that we did last year most of the town the majority of the town is interested in preserving open space i think it's important for the future and also residential property isn't necessarily a long term gain for the town you may get that short term and flux of cash but over the long term residential properties four years of research has shown that it will cost you more in the long run so i just want to get that out i'm hoping that when these other properties you know come up for review that people will have an opportunity to weigh in on that too does a survey available to people is that something the conservation commission did actually i wrote or i wrote a article for the foxboro reporter and two thousand and eight when this all started i brought a copy of it if you do you did the survey data is in there ok thank you is that on the website today we have it on the town website that public public hearing notice the board of selectmen has scheduled a public hearing on tuesday don't hammer ninth two thousand and ten at seven thirty five p m in the end gala junior meeting room town hall forty sell street the purpose of this hearing is to discuss a proposed  the rules and regulations of holding of holders of alcoholic beverage licenses in the town of foxborough which is to add a new paragraph twenty one to read as far as a may first two thousand and eleven no person may sell or serve alcohol or beverages it has been that has been not has not been trained on responsible beverages services acronyms tips t m as a f e service etc no license to shell hire a licensee shall hire a person after that date that does not have a certificate of training and all staff will be recertified every other year the manager shall maintain a roster of employees in copies of said certifications readily available for inspection all interested chief this is part of a continuing effort that both the department and the coalition that's been created here in the community say foxboro is moving forward on we've done a lot of strategy development and it's part of an ongoing process of that coalition group to come up with different environmental strategies that will help reduce youth access to alcohol and earlier this year in july i attended the character conference with other members of the coalition and one of the key programs was the impact that ron responsible beverage service has and making sure that under age people don't have access to alcohol and that people that are already impaired by alcohol don't get additional service in the industry they sometimes call that over beverage the now one thing i want to stress is that our licensees here in foxboro take this issue very seriously it's not just a whim on their part they work closely with the police department and the attendants in previous training sessions that we've had has been very good and for years the board when a new person is licensed in our community always advocates that you know they should have different additional training to make sure that people have an understanding of their y ability as well as their responsibility to sell alcohol what we want to try and do though is to have it mandated as part of the liquor license that the people that are involved in the sale of alcohol have this beverage training and by giving them a de lay date from the time their license is activated on january first it gives them several months that they can find training programs for their employees and also would make it easier for them to tell a prospective employee before i hire you you have to have the certification now i've gotten feedback from some of the licensees and one in particular was an excellent one they suggested that i look for online courses and there are different courses that they could to to supply online to get the certification and although it's not that common at this point in time especially people in my age group are more used to having live classes the younger generation of people are more comfortable using online training in order to get the required certification so there are a variety of ways that people could achieve this i would not say that one is better than the other in fact today in some discussions i know that the stadium is going to be offering the a team train the trainer program this spring and they've indicated as they have in the past that they'd be willing to have outside the ender's of alcohol and licensees actually attend that training if they're from foxborough so i want to let you know the background of what my proposal is about and i'm sure there probably members here in the audience that are from the different licensees and they might have some additional suggestions on this  issue do you have the ability to offer some of these training programs yourself we touched on that briefly actually you know that is certainly a possibility we could actually have the training in the mcguinty room a couple of times and as part of our drug prevention effort make the arrangements so people could attend that training no cost during this coming winter what is usually the class that you know it varies according to the particular trainer that would be given the program but rather than having each individual licensee have to search one out i intend to run a couple of the programs i think if you want online it's forty dollars about forty dollars is the cost for an individual i know in the past people i know have taken different courses such as safe serv think it was a thirty five dollars cost just to take that particular one it it varies according to the the type of training again our focus i try to achieve this is so that we have a mandate out there that the people that are serving alcohol have undergone this training studies that were done in the last several years in the cape that there are fewer instances of sales to minors when people have regular training in this area than it when courage all the liquor license seized to make sure that that takes place so the liquor license easy as of december thirty first they're new on january first correct and then you'd have from january first to may first to do all your training that's correct and then on may first you need that training or you don't serve well they shouldn't have people serving or selling alcohol if they haven't gotten a certificate now from the police training school in one nine hundred seventy three if that was my last training it would be very difficult to function in our profession in this day and age so we want to encourage people that it's not just a one time thing much you know i was focused on one thing though is the way i read it and i'm sure i misread it but it is like the guy washes dishes has to get the certification and that's not the you know right you know if you're so directly selling alcohol or which would be a more of a package store environment as serving which would be a waiter or waitress bartender that's why i wanted to incorporate the the front line people dealing with the customer and if you had any negative feedback from licensees you know i have known but they might be afraid to say that to me so i don't know whether the board members have been contacted or maybe they have some suggestions a couple comments for the board's consideration first i just want to thank the chief for bringing us the boards attention i think is a marvelous idea and lots of communities that are well run communities that take the responsibility for exercising these licenses seriously and do exactly this and this is a great idea you know you take somebody who's impaired you put a two ton car in their hands and give them a lethal weapon this offers the opportunity as the chief points on his memo there's a huge body of statistical data that  of training that allows them to spot a problem it's a prudent investment for a license holder for the simple reason if they've got ten servers it will cost them four hundred dollars every other year two hundred dollars a year but if they have one violation and it's necessary for you it isn't jungmann to put a suspension on them it will cost them vastly in excess of that two hundred dollars investment so this is a prudent step from point of view of protecting public safety and it's a smart investment by the license holders and i suspect at least i hope as soon as i stop talking i hope there are ten people out there license holders ready to pro toughest because i was about to say i suspect that's why you don't have a lot of people here who haven't heard from license holders protesting because they know this is a good idea to dance from the black up and up to that the public if anybody here that you know a couple things this is a great idea david you name for the record david brown seventeen merican way this a great idea chief and you know i looked at it and i do have one suggestion but i say i like the idea that you're forcing them to be retrained that's a common practice it's not followed at a lot of establishment that i work with my work and also that you require an upfront are one thing that you might want to add when you talk about front line service because a lot of this is recognition of what sort of person would be your pounces your doorman your flaws in your hostesses but they all deal with these clients and anybody else like to be right up pima brandt days they work over the ninety nine restaurant i know i had dropped off some information people larry so we do it in our stablish meant to be certified every other year i just hope it's take in consideration that some of his already have stuff in play and it that's all reviewed so we don't have to do something totally different than where he works for us you know we haven't really had many violations in that area so i guess that would mean my only concern is that it's really reviewed in any questions that come up maybe we could committee to say hey this is what we do because it had to retrain everybody who we feel confident lee knows what they're doing and i think that was you got pretty clear that you know if you've already got it you know this you are certified under the serve safe one which is an online program we take it for hours and as a test and then our stops we actually are trained department has a whole book that managers actually do a for a class with us servers  him all the time whenever somebody is up for certification we just group of people together and we do it sometimes it's five people sometimes it's twenty people in our corporation keeps track of all that so i get a list right in my computer that says ok this person expires this day  and then we have two weeks to get them trained from the higher date so cheap if this were to say or other chief approved program  be working with a more experienced as a mentor and you're really working to some extent under that first yes certification but during that training process that they go through that's when they should get this sort of  because i came up at a package store a person that actually suggested the online program brought that up because he trains as people with his more experienced staff until we have an idea of what goes on and he would have to take the was during that break in period that he's not working by themselves you know one thing is not sense correct right the chief the wording on here no person may sell or serve alcohol and what mr employees trained in safe serve even though they don't have any direct sale to anyone so that that would be an excellent amendment to incorporate other people dealing with the public  you know should also receive the training i'm just trying to think of a word if we're going to vote on this tonight at it in there so we don't have to come back a different week so self serve or as busy cos i like to keep the cost of my business down right but it but i think the chief is suggesting you could take the online course for forty dollars every i my wife once in a while fills in so that to office that's eighty dollars and that's not just one cost legislation the state assembly passed legislation mandating everybody to carry a liquor live with insurance on top of the existing light insurance i already have a million dollar liability insurance on my policy but this legislation we got passed effective this year in fact this year before marriage license gets renewal i do when get a liquor liability insurance also on top of my existing policy have liquor you know but eighty dollars plus the premium everything adds up now the health department issued a new regulation this year from the town the permit fees are going up this year for the help on a day pass something then going to a business you know so i'm just trying to stated we are going to offer a couple of programs this winter that you know i'll take care of costs through my crime prevention budget so it gives the  let's make a motion to support paragraph twenty one to read as follows with a few amendments from what chief had submitted as a may first two thousand and eleven no person may sell serve or interact with the paid patrons with respect to alcohol alcoholic beverages that has not been trained on responsible beverage services tips team safe service cetera i'm sorry tips team safe serve or other facts for a police chief approved programs no license shell hire a person licensee shall hire a person have to did that date that does not have a certificate of training and all staff will be recertified every other year the manager will the manager shall maintain a roster of employees and copies of said certifications past summer tour and during their building explosion where they had one of their residents electrician perish but it was a really nice ceremony and a nice presentation that they they did for so proud but again i apologize for being late and making this poor woman wait if you haven't already read the memo i was in the letters that we received we have a outstanding neighbor here in the community known as bringing in women's device it's a medical do the tool that paramedics use while responding to anybody in critical need of of assistance or monitoring at their heart or their body while they're there in an emergency situation and and it's it's one of the devices that we we have an arm and what is that work very very well we have an older unit that was on engine twenty four and this is one that's going to be replacing it and it's it's a great opportunity for us and i can't say enough about cindy and and doctors saying that also it was a big part of making this happen for us that could not make it this evening i wish he was here but he wasn't but  the two major players or at least we got one picture from that with the unit and yourself there linda in front of one of the rescues and and we're going to get those two francs so that they can publicize those but i can't say enough about you and your and your organization and making this donation thanks live i just wanted to say thank you we've written women's mass general health care center at patriot place has been open a little less than two years and can we give you a standing engine twenty four so that the engine twenty four is actually like a paramedic engine it won't be able to transport them but at least if both of our ambulances are out the engine can respond it's still give them that life safety care that they need and that protection and read it the right chance to work with the town council and the staff on the bill and i provided the board with a three page memorandum there's copies of that up there for the public and i'd like to summarize if i could  number of issues as the public knows the background check was reviewed at length in a public meeting the results being sufficiently enough for four of the five selectman to vote to finalize the tell me i just contract the background check which we all agreed to started out at a quote of about fifteen hundred dollars with a professional doing it but it ballooned to nearly fourteen thousand dollars due to a series of thirteen questions asked by ms br identify walk conducting her own background check and receiving multiple pieces of private and confidential information from various unnamed sources some of this information being thirty years old in addition to those cost town council told me that he charged twenty hours to the retainer account as everybody knows the retainer is a fixed retainer and so we don't get a separate bill for that other than the monthly retainer so this memorandum was an attempt to provide details that drove the fourteen thousand dollars charges for the background check as well as to address two other items that were included in that bill twenty one hundred dollars for reviewing the draft employment contract and roughly copies of all the emails the town council received and so i've tried to put in here the number of instances where information was obtained from unnamed sources information well starting with  questions calls were made each time where the town manager worked previously and questions were raised about his job titles calls were made to the two colleges he attended twenty or thirty years ago and while the degrees were verified the dates were awful a copy of a one nine hundred seventy seven military discharge thirty three thirty three years ago was provided by an unnamed source and ms bru wanted that investigated she also received from an unnamed source a seventeen year old easton police report one of the attorneys to fully investigate that another unknown source provided information on legal actions taken while the town manager was the town manager in easton but in addition to that there were a number of questions for instance in the email from miss breaux a friend told me that their friend was it for devon storm reserve training and that sort kevan and kevin was going to deploy can we ask questions about his deployment and as the attorney responded the town cannot deny employment based on military status and any such questions could be used to support a case for discrimination she went on in another case a friend who is in the navy reserves explained that in the navy typically an officer has to have a bachelor's degree raise some questions again about his military background based on that information every selectman has the right to ask questions and so i do not criticize the right of any selectman ask a question and especially where they have some concerns but i do think from a board standpoint that i was shocked i was shocked by the nature of the questions i was shocked by the unnamed sources but most importantly i was shocked by the amount of cost of the the town incurred i think that the board should have been made aware i think the town council should have made us aware as well i think town council while i know it's difficult to give an estimate on some of this stuff because you start and you don't know where it's going to end but it's some point i think town council should have come back to the full board and said hey folks this is getting pretty expensive i just kind of want to let you know that so i think that we need to address some things from a process standpoint but also when it comes to the draft contract i have concerns there the town manager's contract is what will call a model contract it was very similar to the contract that mr gale had that many of the town managers have and in fact just like the superintendents the superintendents generally share the same council time manager share the same council so when did your ask him and i to direct to work on that contract it was a pretty boilerplate contract and we just substituted in things salary and other things so that we didn't think it was going to take very long for town council to review that but in fact town council his labor attorney charged twelve hours to review the contract now part of that was also a question raised by ms brought to it's the end raising a question regarding how the town manager would record his time and would he be recording all of his hours and we prohibit comp time now tell m edges school superintendents men or just generally that are on salary do not maintain detail time records and they're professionals and they work whatever hours and so if tom manager works till midnight on a meeting tonight and shows up tomorrow morning at ten o'clock there's really not a big deal but labor council spent time researching that as well and one of my concerns is that i think that labor council when we switched firms and i wasn't on the board of the time we switched firms but one of the arguments were that we had a small firm we had kind of a jack of all trades and the time would be better off if we had this big law firm with expertise in everything and one of the advantages to me would be that if you go to someone like that with an expertise and you say i have a charged to review the contract is substantially outrageous i'm not saying they didn't work the hours but i would have expected significantly fewer hours from the expertise of that law firm to review that contract finally the request for the search committee the search committee asked two very simple questions at least in my mind they were very simple questions one of the questions dealt with the open meeting law and what they said is that we recognize that under the old meaning law we can only interview people once before we get to the finals we had some we might want that we wanted to bring back for a second time ken is the are there any exemptions that would allow us to bring someone back for a second interview in the privacy so that we could make a determination whether that person was a finalist or not a very simple question either yes or no was it like the first time manager search ever in the history of massachusetts the second question they asked is what do we do with the resumes from those w finalist and again to me that's a very simple question to spend eight hours answering those two questions i think is outrageous and so i did talk to the search committee i've talked to town council and i would hope that  that the board would be willing to direct the town manager to go back and renegotiate these bills because i don't think when i talked to the search committee they agreed that you know based on those two questions an experienced labor attorney who's a former selectman should be able to answer those very quickly you know at best in an hour or two the same thing with a review of the contract at best an hour or two what concerns me is that we as a town we've talked a lot about the retainer and the fact that over the last couple years since this firm has been here we use the retainer a lot and so they make like sixty five dollars an hour when you add up all the requests you divide it with they make but it concerns me that when whenever we get something that is gray it goes outside the retainer and when it goes outside the retain it we get these these lots of hours so i'm not an attorney but it just seems to me i can say very clearly the issues on the contract because i'm familiar with those the issues on the public they went to the state house they did lots of different things and audit to do that so i can't say that that's not a legitimate expense that they legitimately spent the i was that they should it's concerning to me though that when they when you hire a professional for fifteen hundred dollars and that balloons to over six thousand dollars and that's not brought to our attention and then the lawyers themselves are running up the bill that they did somebody should have brought that to the board's attention and that didn't happen so regarding the search i think we need to address our policies regarding the other two at a minimum i think the board should go back and try to negotiate a lower bill because i think it's unreasonable and so those are my me yeah i'd like to respond larry again for the public town council has provided us with a bill for services related to the following background check the research on open meeting law questions requested by the search committee and contract development for hiring the term manager kevin pecos i'd like to start by thanking town council and peter barry in particular for the thorough review performed it was in the best interests of the town to have the answers to the background check provided so that all members of the board of selectmen could make an informed choice as part of my due diligence i submitted a list of thirteen questions for review ten of the questions focused on verification of dates and titles on the applicant's resume for which i found discrepancies these questions would be addressed as part of any routine background check that includes resume verification which ours did the discrepancies were confirmed and unlike larry's characterization did not result in the cost of sixty two hundred dollars to the town larry states i conducted my own background check and his letter larry is guilty of an obvious misspeak here because if he ha carefully read the e mails available he would have reported to the public tonight that i said quote i do not want to assume the discrepancies or other information are valid and want them professionally reviewed to either confirm or rule them out hardly the witchhunt larry was trying to portray the information about the three hundred thousand dollars civil rights lawsuit settlement that larry first to as an attempt by someone to use me as a quote pawn to quote slander kevin can be found on the infant internet the source  of any of this information is irrelevant as a matter of fact the public should know that town council thought this was important information to review larry must think the town would have been better served to ignore the history around the lawsuit obviously we disagree on that point as did town council because of my due diligence in reviewing the candidates the research on this topic was completed to the satisfaction of town council in the best interest of our town town council researched the other two areas in question to the extent they feel necessary to provide our town with the reassurance it needed to make an informed hiring decision these dealt with the order in order of the secretary secretary of state for the release of information again information available vailable on the internet and also the police incident on file an eastern town council completed a thorough  d investigation on those matters and with this information in hand each member of the board made the decision i don't want to forget to mention the thousand and eighty dollars attorney's fees billed last month that larry describes in his letter as quote personal advice to me larry fails again to provide the whole story to the residents so much for transparency when a member of the board is told there is a potential for litigation against them in the town that board member has a responsibility to report that potential and to identify any actions necessary to prevent risk to the town for some reason perhaps political larry chooses it in this case not to see the benefit of always working in the act to act in the best interests of the town and avoid litigation excuse me however both attempt manager and linda walsh supported my request to consult town council on this matter i have followed our standard procedure by discussing my questions with the town manager and the chairman throughout this process larry telling the residents that this was for my own personal advice and benefit is an outright lie i just the public should know that without any further discussion and open meeting this board's original decision to hire an independent background check from was changed and the search committee was named to handle the background check process i expressed my concern about the question of weight questionable way that this change came about the search committee reassured me that although the process had changed any concerns i provided in writing would be addressed i provided those questions on a list again without any further discussion in open meeting that decision changed i was advised the town council is now handling the background check the public should know that charges related to emails from larry also appear on this invoice how are those contacts any less costly or more important than mine and why aren't his emails included in the packet for the public provided tonight here i wanted to be clear that i was never permitted to be involved in the decision to engage the church committee or town council to handle the background checks if my suggestion for hiring an independent firm to do the background check as originally agreed had been followed this ridiculous discussion would not be happening the cost of this process was high i just want the public to know that town council provided the highest quality work product which i and many others in this town are grateful for any concerns that have been raised questioning the research before my town council should be dismissed as political in nature i believe the cost came about because of the lack of transparency that occurred and the failed attempt by certain board members to keep results of the background check from being made available to me as like that of the candidates for larry to try and portray me as the cause of incurring unnecessary expense using town council is an effort in futility since i was effectively prevented from having any voice in the matter of deciding who would handle the background check or what the potential cost would be i think kevin is owed an apology by this board and the town is owed an apology for having to sit through this embarrassing discussion larry's attempts to discredit me on this issue make the entire board including him look unprofessional in our conduct we should be focusing our energies on positive actions strategic planning budget discussions route one development not to mention just a few of our priorities disingenuous meaning fake deceptive meaningly meanly a these words describe this attempt to place blame on someone other than larry for what i pointed out as a budget process in the statement that i read to the board on september fourteenth going forward let's focus our efforts on collaborating in a professional manner mrs i'm not going to rebut all those comments the e mails are there for the public to see ms brew called each of the towns it's clear in the email she called each of the colleges it's clear in the email you can call that a reference  me you interrupt and the town council and the tao managers they want to hide an independent firm for the talk to a fifteen dollars fifteen hundred dollars he hired the independent firm just as this board wanted to have done but because of these these friends of a friend all of this kind of conspiracy that was going on well it led to yup substantial costs on everybody's part and the public endured the embarrassment of seeing the background check my question was fourteen thousand dollars is an outrageous amount to do the background check that all the information relative to the job description her as titles and as college would have been done with through the routine fifteen hundred dollar background check but when you get a thirty three year old discharge you want investigated when you get a seventeen year old police report you want investigated on and on and on that's where the cost came and i think the public that reads the e mails will see who had the agenda he who didn't my point was i didn't want to pay the bills i thought that the bills are too high for the questions raised in the contract i think the question the bills are too high for the work done for the search committee as well and i simply said to the board that i wasn't what we're here for we're at this table to come up with solutions and that's what we're going to do i'm going to dissuade god some of the comments that were made he had city tonight about this board because i want to go to the future and it starts right now folks this is when it ok kevin would you please ask to go over this with us once again because presently i think some of these things are outrageous the price that would mean yes they did a great job they did a great job but to find it go from fifteen hundred to one hundred thousand you know we just need to investigate it and i and i and i'd ask them to be of this evening that if there's a way that he can come in and kind of go all of these things with us i mean it's true larry wasn't he yeah jim wasn't he at rainless and yeah paul was here when we had the new film and that was one of the leading factors was that we have this you hold huge from that has already gone through these cases before they've they've you know got it right at their fingertips and you know it kind of saw this on it so you know i'd like him to kind of elaborate on that that was my one concern and  i seriously folks were going to move forward and i never had to say one of the things well it is very very brief as everybody knows i took out papers to rewrite to rerun for the school committee it was miss broom who convinced me who talked to both my wife and myself for hours commenced me to go back to town clerk's office turn those papers in and take them out from cycling i have no axe to grind against ms broom she asked me to run for this board and i ran for the board period the dilemma here is in the nature of the agreement the council has signed with the town you have this provision where there's a retainer and it's a cover certain amounts of work so the way it works is we pay a set fee every month  get a limited legal service but in that agreement there are stated a number of other things which if town council does can be build in addition to the retainer and the problem is the way that's currently wor is very gray so it leaves the sole interpreter of those grey areas the person going to receive the benefit of counsel in town councils made very clear to me that the retainer portion of the agreement is costing them money in other words the amount of service they provide compared to the billing that they get the standard fee provides an hourly rate income wise which is far below the normal billing rate so i suspect if i were a town council if i were a law firm and i was have the ability to look at the gray area i might tend to interpret it liberally in order to result in in order to support some additional billings which would make that retaining amount look a little better to the bottom line and i think that's what's happening here but but the point is that even though i was ok having that the same i spent on some of the stuff is kind i'm realistic because we were sold the go to beds that they were huge laughter and they had all these different lawyers with all these different specialties that have already done these cases so you wouldn't have to go and spend time on you know all the research as it was and other research on it i mean that's that's my you know that's my only thing and i if i think we have to go back to what it was before what it was before was any and i had a question what legal remember that i don't but we do know that i'm right and that's what we just have to remember to do that because my only concern is like if you go through the bills you know and i'll just speak for myself when i to answer it that's a pretty expensive question and we look at it i look at it and say on the labor issues that this search committee was the easiest they asked two very simple questions what do we do with the resumes of those who are finalists there's been fifty searches in the state if they're really experts they know the answer that very quickly and the second one is dealt with can we can we bring someone in for second interview and even if the if the senior partner whatever his title is didn't know the answer had to research it how could it  charged to research such a simple question and then and the idea was that there are such a large firms such specialist that they can answer those questions very quickly and very inexpensively and when i look at the the answers to the questions on the contract and the answer the questions in the search committee i can't justify how they got anywhere near those number of hours and i jim you work the more on the contracts were you surprised that twelve hours for the for the work that we asked for a couple things  groom who was on a retainer with larry working it out in a was a standard contract at the by the time that i brought it to the attorney it was just dotting the i's and crossing the t's the things that he spent time  unfortunately and it was the time sheet things in the questions that you had brought up that's what spent the time of the nine to twelve hours if you look if you look secondly it's not i just wanted to on the twenty first he reviewed it most of the correspondence process you said something that stuck with me your bosses this table and if you're going to be running to five different people you're not going to do that you're going to go to the chair or one you going to go crazy into nothing's going to get done crazier you know there's i don't i don't think there's a written policy the contract that we have with the attorney will make sure that's not gray but moving forward i think that the attorney needs to take direction from the chair if we need to get to the attorney would go to the chair whether it goes to the charity you to the attorney but when i looked at the stack of e mails i was angry i didn't know this was all going on and we got hit with a fourteen thousand dollar bill if we said with the attorney i know the first thing they're going to say is us a question i answer the question has fifteen minutes for this has an hour this stuff went back twenty five thirty years and it cost money to do it that should have gone to the chair and we should have been made aware that this was going to it but it during the interview process you brought up a question that somebody was sending a letter that was derogatory it was inflammatory that those and i asked you is this coming from the selectmen or is this coming from the public i mean i got calls from somebody that said a friend of a friend and what i said is i would love to hear it if it has merit save us all the embarrassment let's get it on the table bring me the person bring me the name bring me the event the person disappeared and it didn't get into the lead all these e mails were a friend of a friend and it went back and back it did brian i'm not aware of the fourteen thousand dollar bill that was this situation happened that town manager andy you know was he had not yet sacha lorraine contacted me on several situations that she was concerned about and the she had also reached out to the search committee about the search committee chair had contacted me also and said that he was concerned with some of the things that lorraine was talking about so i asked lorraine basically to reach out to town council to find out you know what we can and what we can't do you think for one minute that i thought or lorraine i would bet that it was going to take this this much money and this much time to get a couple of the questions asked and answered whether she can ask him or not that's one thing but not yes to go to the lawyer yes but that was the question whether we had the right to ask those questions during the all and his car questions were to find out if it was something that so what we need to do is it needs to be clarified from time counsel on how how this happened so i want to make a motion that we direct the town manager to go back and renegotiate the  charged for answering questions for the search committee i don't think they should to give kevin some direction i don't think it's more than two hours that he go back and renegotiate the i was charged on the draft of the contract and i don't think that's more than a couple of hours as i said earlier i can't judge they were asked legit and they were asked questions did they research ms brew i don't know how long it should have taken and not taken but when i do know those other two seem absurd to me the number of hours so i would ask the time when i go back i mean is anybody in disagreement you really should be fourteen thousand ok a few minutes yet is i have no idea i think if whether to be fourteen thousand or something more something less i don't know i think if we don't trust our town council to give us an accurate bill we should get a new town council i mean i think it's as simple as that i think it's very fair to ask them for clarification i so you know i think that's fine we've certainly found some mistakes in the bill before but to you know say well it should have taken eight hours i tell you what you know in the tax law i got a question you think that you know there should be a clear answer to situation that we're dealing with and again that's why you know i think town council did a very good job in what they did i found that they were you know whenever i did speak to linda if linda bounce something off them they got back to her timely they got back to me timely i just think that it was all handled very well by them and but it's almost like questioning your surgeon how long they've taken your operation you know it's like the hit different issues that they're going to have to deal with and for us to try and second guess their charges you know i personally do have faith in in the charges but i don't see any issue i don't have any issue with asking for clarification to explain every single one of those minutes every said you know like response to my you know take two minute i mean you know we're just taking up more of their time which is self defeating well so it  is when you get for us because folks have read it in the paper that you know we've got this one hundred thousand dollars bill and we need to be transparent right and the folks at home need to understand that it too and it will be a learning for  the fourteen doesn't include the extra money for the contract and it doesn't include the money into the search committee when you put it all together explosive a seventy thousand and you know it just seems to me that if you were to look at every town manager hired in the last two or three years and every school superintendent the last two or three years i don't know there are very many that have spent seventeen thousand dollars and i think for a man who's been in a public life for thirty years everything is out in the open it's easy to check where he went to school when he graduated and what he worked hard each one of the jobs etc that's easy to do that's very inexpensive to do and he explained why they were some of those so those difference he explained that in public it was all this other stuff that ran up the cost and i and i  say is i said in the letter is that i think that that charges that they've assessed us are way too high and way too high and then to have met them it is so  i do think it was a long not so much fun and arduous process i think after the process i think most i think people should feel comfortable that we have kevin i think he's you know obviously a man of action character and you know so called flaws or what someone might think of as a flaw that you know came up so you know speeds is wife with one hundred percent is is you give you know the list that you know i think i think it worked out well for kevin in the long piece that you know i think clear that's not quite the right word is not very artful and by the way in the speeding thing i think there's a gender difference i didn't think much of it but  process though was the indication that there would be personal liability and liability today based on questions that lorraine was asking i think that it's hard enough to get people to run for office without having people worry about am i going to be personally liable so i think it's very fair to go through the chairman and then therefore the town council to you know find out is this truth or a bunch of baloney or something in between i think that's very artful and well orchestrated by larry to to try to embarrass lorraine and i think that you know would have been you know better off as a you know column in the newspaper and you know it's really embarrassing i'm embarrassed to sit here and ponce at heights have let me have to tell you when i read this tonight i'm sorry and i have a great deal of respect for your professionalism and how you handle yourself at this board but it was a after and i have worked in the professional field just as you have and i have been there when people have had to be vetted and people have had to go through extensive process to be hired and put into positions i have anybody else yes kevin if if i dare i just want to return back to what i i i i hope is is a hopeful note and something that a lesson something good positive that we can draw out of this and by the way i'd appreciate if i could just say this before i turn to that you ladies and young men have an extraordinarily difficult year if you can this is not too many people other than tom managers who appreciate fully the difficulty of your job if i were in your shoes frankly whether solicited or unsolicited and i've received information similar to what i know people were saying sad to say tom managers have people who want to hurt their reputation that's the nature of the business and people want to do that to you well yeah that's what we put on the line when we say we want to be leaders and we make some people want to have it and it's a beautiful thing in a democracy that they get to do that to us but it's unfortunate because sometimes it's personally very hurtful if i had been the recipient as any of you w of information which caused me to pause and consider whether or not the person that we're about to hire is our time manager had significant important character defects i would have investigated it just is  you and frankly i would have said whether that cost four thousand dollars or forty thousand dollars is worth the investment to be sure because the person who sits in this position if that person is not a person of integrity and character they can do substantial harm to this community you needed to be sure and i want to say this too because this is the first time i ever got to say i don't be or anything they are any grudge or city or any disappointment any kangaroo anything else for the way the process and feel sure it was a hard process to go through i can assure you but on the other hand it's not by any means the hardest thing i ever did not even close and it's a process that the public needed to hear and see i appreciate what you did it was a hard job you had to do and i don't think any of you erred in terms of the way you did it and that's my opinion and i'm on the receiving end so i guess i there and i respect every one of you for the job you do it's a tough job so i hope after tonight we can put this whole background check get hiring thing behind us but i think there's an important issue here that is correct in the issue is the way town council services are utilized to hold their access under the ordinary circumstance what most boards do and i did have a conversation with paul duran's about this paul indicates to me that it's common from individual members of the board to give him a call about issues most of those calls go to the retainer and therefore don't cost any more  sometimes board members will call the body issues that are in that gray area and result in additional billings it's been his experience in the other towns cities council and certainly been my experience as a as a manager from the new years of the boards of work most boards have a policy that says something simple like this board members do not under massachusetts statute wield individual authority you wheel authority through your board consequently the board should not incur costs to the taxpayers unless the majority of the board agrees with that and cries of cost so if you want to legal opinion you shouldn't come to me you should decide at a meeting that you want an opinion on a subject whatever it is and then tell the chair to call town council and get that opinion or i certainly be happy to relayed the message if it's a simple relaying of the boys instructions but that should be your policy that's what i've universally seen boards do and it's what paul the rents are certainly would like frankly he would like to have a policy like that and then if if if a member of the board now or in the future goes off the reservation and does something different calls him up he can politely say to the board member look you know you shouldn't do that because your board has instructed me that all these questions should be coming through the chair or through the town manager as instructed by the board and that's the suggestion for the positive thing that i think can can come out of all this and to make you a stronger board and to make you make our utilization of town council dollars more morning the events of tonight he will be he will advise that you will be receiving a credit and i will just as fast as he can have someone generate that piece of paper and send it out here he is not going to want to get into an explanation of all the ins and outs of this bill because i don't think there's any way to satisfy everybody that it is or isn't necessary was or wasn't necessary without continuing to agonize over th so i suspect the best thing that he'll lafayette he'll simply say look i will give you a credit of x thousand dollars on this thing and i hope that would be sufficient to the boards to the board's interest and that you'd allow that and be done with it  would you also bring to us a draft policy for the board's consideration because randy did we go for a reserve transfer last year a legal expenses i think we're oh yeah years ago i had to you it's been an issue for the last couple years and so again you can accuse me of all the politics you want but the point is we're going to probably once again have to go for reserve transfer because of this seventeen thousand dollars so all i'm trying to say is we have got to get the legal expenses under control we need a new policy i believe that these charges are excessive if the board doesn't think they're excessive fine i think they're excessive and i think you they owe us a credit i don't think the town should pay the the bill that has been submitted but if if the board the majority the board thinks that we should pay it as it is without any questions asked then that i accept the will of the board paul will offer you a credit because he will feel strongly i suspect that he does not want you to be in a position where you feel you need to question these bills and so he will offer you a credit he will just simply say i don't want to have the not questioning when his partner says he spent three quarters of an hour an hour and a half three hours he's not questioning those charges what i said damn is for instance on the search committee i said paul you're a select your partner is a former selectman these were very simple questions what do i do with the resumes of the non finalist can i interview a person for a second time in in private session these are very simple questions they don't take very long how could he possibly take that time every simple questions but he but he said this is bill anyway so i mean it was after that bill was sent all ok remember we were at the last meeting we decided not to approve that bill and i said or that i was going to go and raise questions with them and i thought i've done that in the last two weeks i got the e mails i got all the information with the public has today what he said to me was he was shocked he put a call he got a conversation with peter himself and myself  peter says you know we had to send people to the state house we had to do this we had to do this we had to do that and my comment was on the search piece i'm not going to argue i don't know but when there is very simple questions like do we keep the resumes we don't why would you an experienced attorney a former selectman why would it take you more than fifteen minutes to answer that question so i guess maybe though it was like a question right i guess my point is that is is premature in other words ball paul not come back to us with either it's accurate he thinks it's the right bill or not because i mean in fact he might come back and say oh you're right this you know it was only two hours he feels that he that the hours they put on the bill they didn't  in his view my challenge to him is when you asked two simple questions it couldn't have taken eight hours i don't keer the research so that's why i said i wasn't questioning the charges for lorraine's questions i wasn't questioning those other than the fact that it was so much money what i was questioning when it comes to things like comp time as a as a labor attorney dealing with town managers day in and day out to have to spend i was dealing whether or not he fills out time sheets or doesn't fill out a file that seems kind of crazy to me the same as the search so i was only questioning those two cases i understand that i understand so it's ok i'll do that it has come back yeah i guess a year ago we had the same debate he submitted some charges that we got into a debate as to whether they were in the retainer or not in the retainer and we talked about him submitting when it was going to be a big project bless you him coming to us with  with an advanced estimate he didn't do this in this petition and i think fourteen thousand that's a big number somebody should have said just so you guys all know this is getting pretty expensive and when he said to me larry when i saw the bill i was shocked to he didn't anticipate it was fourteen thousand dollars and he didn't hesitate it was two thousand on the contract except he was surprised i would just submit though that you know when you have a partner who's a the that they'll say things to try the silver lining of the good news is that you made the right choice a couple of items briefly if we could talk about the commuter parking lot update you get into the other matters we're targeting monday december sixth as the open date for the parking lot when we've announced the lottery for the first group of parking permits we should be valid from december sixth of this year through march thirty first of next year there monday through friday parking permit passes applications are available at town hall the library and on the town's website read on the front page our pricing as word is already voted before as a twenty five percent discount to mansfield and the other lots at the equivalent of three dollars per day we've distributed flyers the town hall the library and at the mansfield train station we are hoping the paper gives us a nice visibility to the opening date and a lottery for the parking permits interested commuters should file their applications with the collectors office at town hall no later than monday nov twenty ninth at nine a m we will select the first approximately one hundred fifteen recipients of the parking permit starting at nine thirty a m that same day on the twenty ninth i say approximately because the lot has yet to be striped and there may be a few more spaces and so will draw as many as there are spaces and soon as we draw the permits draw the recipients will notify the folks immediately to pick up their passes the town hall a bus service from the parking lot to the station will be provided by get tra at no additional cost to the commuter we are collecting train preferences on the app occasions in order to best coordinate the bus schedule with a lot users needs that was a request of gatorade the highway superintendent has his work cut out to meet the date but he's under way on the procurement of the lights the light poles their installation establishing the electric service and the plant signage and the bus shelter which gatorade has graciously donated he anticipates a total one time cost to be about twenty five thousand dollars well below what was originally estimated we will have increased ongoing electricity costs to light the lot that estimate is not complete yet but should only be a modest increase to the to the lighting budget and all costs are expected to be covered by the permit fees so for all of the commuters out there who are listening to take you to mansfield to share on stations and would like a dedicated parking space please get your application in you click on the town's website right on the home page and download your your application right there they're disappearing fast so i quickly currently awful tough to get in the town to make some very much needed revenue he's been laying the lash on bob swanson to meet the deadlines and bob been doing great work against some real difficulties pulling it al together and i just want the board in the public to know that the two of them have really done a phenomenal job getting this pulled together under some very very tough circumstances and i have every confidence it's going to be up and running by december sixth people are going to love it and  with the town meeting may ninth of next year the flipside of the document is the advisory committee review with the with the department department heads every wednesday night in january the first first wednesday in february kevin and i have already met with the school superintendent school business minister  point in time so tonight we're here to review the same with the board already had a preliminary review with the advisory committee last week and then we'll have at the department head meeting will have a kickoff with bartman heads  tomorrow morning for the budget process and then the process starts we'll receive the requests within approximately thirty days distribute the the budget requests to everybody late december then we have the review schedule and then we'll be back before the board your first meeting in february to see where we stand see with the with the requests less any modifications that have been done have come in we'll of that by that time seeing the the governor stressed bosal for state aid hopefully better than what we were planning maybe not and then any other tweaks to revenues or expenses that might have been done at that point in time in the capital process will kick off that process will culminate the beginning of a complete at the beginning of march and then we'll have basically march to  balance the budget in order to come with a balanced budget to meet the publishing deadlines in april for the for the town meeting in may so that's the that's the calendar just a quick question in the governor's race that was just concluded it seemed to be fairly consistent among all four candidates that there is a two billion dollars structural deficit for the next fiscal year do you care to comment on that how realistic you think that number or is it low is it high  it seems to be pretty accurate it's a good news is it's lower than it was a year ago they were talking about a three billion dollars on structural deficit so they seem to of you know made up someone over the last year but that seems to be a you know a  realistic estimate what is the top do you know the total state two billion is is it three percent is it five percent is it two percent of the budget where what is it and magnitude i think that's it's probably mid single digits about five five six percent programs the debt service but those are hard to touch but aid to cities and towns and as you've got to provide the medical coverage you've got to provide the pension expense but i could restructure the whole thing well  to the numbers of the is the next exercise and you get the bottom line but we're predicting based and this is the composite view from about ten or fifteen legislate tours that we talk to so it isn't rob's because i just gone to the sexercise and hang on for it came up here and we do the same thing on the reps in this area in the manager's sounds like three to five percent and that's going to be a moving number as you know it always is but what they've done it's hand thank goodness they did it they dropped the revenue estimates substantially for this fiscal year after the m t f came out with a two billion dollars structural deficit projection and they're hitting their targets and exceeding all but they're hitting them in a cd and because they drop their revenue projections so drastically so we're hoping that we're going to stay on track for four percent long as the revenues come budgets but even if we spent the exact same amount of money next year as we did this year we've got six hundred thirty nine thousand less in revenue exactly so before aren't our health insurance goes up and our other costs go up even if all the way just a the same it within the fix average of what of what the range of of the increase is in january when they set their rates because they will not have enough experience with us will only have a for only four months experience with us so that's around the reactors that they were talking factor in the average retirements we have this is just under one percent increase and you know now in the school side even if the teachers took zero raise not the teachers taking to raise but if they did what the step in the lane changes that are already built in there their salary costs are going up regardless of whether they have a zero percent increase correct you have a rough idea of what assuming no changes what the costs increase are projected t actually i do if fact i can get to that question sure but actually was i going to jump to the punchline but what you see here in the executive summary which i'd like to walk you through so the public and yourselves have a an understanding for what's here but before you get to the requests for operating budgets from the municipal departments and school departments before you get there with the estimates on revenue and with the estimates on how fixed costs meaning insurances debt service pension health when you include when you  you don't and you're looking like we should about six hundred and thirty eight thousand a reduction from the operating room operating revenue that we had last year to go to operating budgets and then doing a projection which is you know we do a multi year projection on on on the entirety of the op of the general fund spending operating budgets capital budgets without receiving the request yet from the department as that might by by my estimates that will add about another million dollars  deficit two to the fiscal twelve budget so about a million six is that going in estimated shortfall of course we've already discussed kevin and i christen paul already discussed a variety of ways to try to skin the cat here it will be a challenge it will take many solutions to get there but about a million six is what we think we're looking at at this early juncture ok so in other words like you just stated a different way call level services budget meaning we have all the same services in f y twelve next fiscal year july one two thousand and eleven to june thirtieth two thousand and twelve all the same services for that year that we have right now in order to replicate those services and do nothing new it will cost of one point six more than we've got so lobby asli a little service with budget is not going to be possible so now just and you have a number of unions that are going through the process of negotiating today in your one point six million dollars shortfall does that assume there are no increases for the unions as well or do you have that the  labor group will take a zero cola increase in either this current fiscal year or next fiscal year school and us bill that is the that is an underlying assumption to that one point six if that's baked into the assumptions that i have i have some basis options that there are there are increases for those who take and zeros and for those who haven't taken zeros that that there is no increase and we would want to game to that and you know i understand i understand i'm just i'm trying to understand if you know i'm just trying to stand if you're one point seven million six one one one point six million forty is that low or high and and since salaries represent such a big piece of it you know just trying to get an idea of how you got that big deal because i'm looking at your fiscal eleven and you're already showing an eighty two thousand five hundred dollars variance right now through the shortfalls in the state aid that ultimately was set and also the new york was slightly off as well right yeah side the estimate is that the net taxation would increase by approximately two point three million dollars three primary increases to that not all benefit benefits  the operating budgets directly for the first pieces eight hundred forty thousand dollar growth in the two and a half percent increase assuming we tax to that the levy limit next year the estimate on the new growth at this point in time is three hundred sixty five thousand so taxation from the growth three sixty five we're down into a slow period review this with the building commission reviewed all the all the activity they're seeing this is higher than what we what we just experienced for this year at about two hundred ninety four thousand so it's we had been averaging before the big spike with all the development that came to town we have been averaging about four hundred one hundred forty thousand a year so this is definitely a low ebb so we have not come out of it  we've gone through and building commissioner went through every area of town and all the known projects they're aware of and this is this is the best that we've come up with at this point so the other big piece is increases in tax due to dead exclusions so that does not help the operating budget because as we all know the debt exclusion taxes that are a have to go directly towards the debt service so one point zero eight million estimated in increased debt exclusion taxation where is that coming from we will be on the library at the beginning of the calendar year two thousand and eleven so the first bond payments will be made in fiscal twelve again we haven't haven't put that together yet but the estimate this point time is about six hundred seventy five thousand would be the impact on next year's next year's debt excluding taxes the other piece is approximately four hundred thousand dollar increase excluded taxes due to the fact that the subsidy for the i go school debt repayment from the m s p a has gone away this week the last payment on the i go to school bond will actually go out the door last two hundred fifty thousand and the i go school the renovations paid off as you know we received substantial subsidy and it was over about seventy percent of the project cost from the m s p a as you know they it took them twelve years after the pr was completed in order for the state to dig themselves out of their hole and then and the five billion dollars that they owed to all the communities in the state and they found when they finally got to our audit which is when they do a true up to pay us back the remainder of what they owed us that was three years ago and they trooped up a nine and a half dollars to the town on this project and they paid us out of the last three years of the bond fiscal nine ten eleven we did not have that amount of money in debt service for the i go project and so we actually were getting one hundred sixty six thousand out of that haven't we're going to six hundred sixty five thousand a year for a project we only had about a quarter of a million dollars in debt service left so we were reducing taxes as we've talked about here at this table for the last three years by about four hundred thousand dollars every year for the last three years reducing taxes by that by that backloaded true up from the state so it was paying for other debts reducing other debt exclusions costs that we had so now that the bond payments are done and so now there's that one hundred thousand dollar subsidy if you will to debt is going to tax goes away and so that now that is food taxes will increase by one thousand next year so that is how we get to the one point zero eight million increase and that excludes taxes so that does not go down to benefit what's available for operating budgets it's just for the public at home that's watching it so the net taxation is increas six point eight percent and again we had that debate a few weeks ago because of the letter to the editor complaining about this year's tax increase and we said third of it was dead exemption you got another million dollars coming on here and then the rest of it would be the the town meeting authorizing the op to the two and a half percent and the new growth rate so the from what what we did last year is what is going to be similar to this year if the town meeting bruce at the million  already committed so even if you didn't go to the maximum of two and a half you have to come up with a million correct and when you go to the two and a half plus the million is another six point eight percent increase on the revenue side the taxation time and we'll see that reduces and that's on the big items japp to seventy and general government which is the mass lottery and we've gone with general assumptions on the other generally the trend on all the other smaller pieces but the chapter seven in the mass lottery  is that the lion's share of it is in eighty five ninety percent of the number so going with that assumption that reduces even at state a estimate by four hundred seventy one thousand so so that that's a real reduction  be a dead exclusion payment reduction in the church it doesn't affect us because that's offset on the expense side the the m s b a receipt basically what you're seeing there is a you're seeing a one point one million dollar reduction in that state but six hundred sixty five thousand of that reduction is we're not now receiving that i go payment and where is that being made up that's being made up on the taxation side but only hundred thousand there because the bond is now paid off and  the annual cost was about a quarter of a million dollars is that a net loss to us it's a net loss to the taxpayer ok but but we received everything that we were supposed to receive from the m s p a on it it's just because it took them twelve years to clean up to catch up with the audit's of the projects to then give us our final true up and we only had three years to pay it out we reduced taxes nicely for three years but now they're going to going to spring very so that's so again that the reduction isn't really a million one to the general fund budgets it's for seventy one because it's sixty five was was related to debt exclusions local receipts i'm estimating a three hundred twenty five thousand dollar reduction in the utilization of local receipts as you know we under under budget the revenue from local receipts in order to generate this free cash for the following years budgets which we are addicted to and we had to lean gone we had reduced budgets as you know last year to balance the schools chose not to reduce the budget but they would spend the money and the turn it back to the town which in essence they did they had committed to you know over three hundred thousand dollar three seventy five and they did do that they kept their end of the bargain but in order to make that balance when we set the tax rate we had we had increase our revenue source because we were not balance so we had increase our reliance on local receipts in order to do that so we  schools gave us that did fall down to free cash which is which is good but we're overreliant it's not sustainable so in order to generate the levels of free cash out of local receipts in order to fund  the old levels because of all the old levels of free cash into the operating budget we need to deliver by this this amount and my recommendation in order for us to to to remain stable so minus three twenty five there on the other available funds which includes free cash enterprise overhead allocation ambulance receipts here because we also had to over rely on our free cash we were over one point eight million about technically about one point eight five million in free cash normally we're relying on free cash at about the one point one one point two million dollar level you know  in and in a normal year we've always tried to move that down to a slow as we go in a bad cycle comes and then we have to we have to rely more on so we're at the higher end of the scale the highest that i've seen in the history that i've looked is about two million dollars so we were pushing that so my recommendation is that is not sustainable we will not generate the free cash at the end of this year because we've over relied on the on the local receipts we will in order to in order to reach replenish what's needed in f y thirteen so my recommendation is we we start the process of levering back instead of one point eight to one point seven and that's the that's backwards hundred eleven thousand here this is exactly what we did in the middle of the last decade w we had to do an over reliance on free cash flow into two million and then when we finally saw that the times were turning good at the card to realize that actually delivered by free cash dramatically this is a modest very modest the levering recommending we go one seven one six you know one for that sort of thing so net net general fund revenues increasing by seven hundred seventeen thousand but as you already know the bulk of that is from debt exclusions so it's really not an increase then when you look at the fixed costs again fixed costs health pension debt service insurances fixed costs i'm estimating increasing by one point three million big assumption and here we've talked about it table before but kevin and i and chris and paul have discussed it we do believe that it's the right thing to proceed ahead at this point time with this three hundred thousand dollars towards that long term liability recalling that that is taking a page out of needham's book where that doesn't come that doesn't come close to funding what the actual annual cost is for this long term lot liability for retiree health benefits annual cost a fund that is close at one point five one point six million but what needham had done about a dozen years ago is they started with a number like this three hundred thousand to get it into the budget and then they it was painful but then they incremented it every once it was in the incremented every year by the fifty or one hundred thousand dollars and then they finally got up to the level that was required the funded and now they're funding at a level that they're supposed to be funding so that that's three hundred thousand out of the one point three five million dollars increase in the in the estimate of fixed cost increases the other piece if you would you just remind people at home the underfunded liability for the promises you made to provide health care to retirees sure it's approximately on on an unfunded basis meaning if we don't put money forward it's about sixty two million dollars on a funded basis which are trying to move towards it's roughly half of that so it makes it mattick impact actually putting something away now to grow to find that liability so it's the prudent it's a prudent thing to do it's a painful thing to override that actually increasing by about four hundred fifteen thousand and add it all together and with the hope of trust it's one million three fifty six so that brings us to net available funds for operating budget school  l as a reduction from the prior year of about six hundred thirty nine thousand or minus one point six five percent then as we talked about earlier if you add in estimates of this point time and the school bus ministry had provided some preliminary estimates on the school site as well so of course that's a big big portion of the operating budget so we're going to those this point time and then some estimates without the benefit of the actual requests that adds about another million dollars to the shortfall this and thirteen but we actually took note of the fact that this is a good time energy prices are down compared to when we did them two years ago a lot of those prices and so we rebid the energy john no this is just the portion of electricity which will supply the saree components of electric this is just the supply portion and we were teeth received by twenty five percent decrease we got down by adding another year so we're contracted through two thousand and fourteen or we drop from twelve point something cents per kilowatt hour of power down eight points something sounds we asked them to blend that into the rates starting july one of next year dollars over three years so electricity will actually go down natural gas we're going to open next week i think it's i say open it's actually a fascinating online computer based on everything that we know now and most of the you know soccer's in the summer concerts or in these special soccer is in hoping for a playoff game you know for the home game for this year assumed an you know couple more concert type of events in the estimate but unless you know they have you know they have some other they have a band a year like they had last year this is  another idea third time's the charm maybe certainly it's an important avenue source to think about and we certainly have need this year more so than any other year and that is the mule's tax you know that there are different two years ago they have not revisited the revenue estimates what she explained to me is that they were thinking about doing that but right now the latest and greatest estimate that they had was the old one which is about four hundred fifty eight thousand and again as we all know it's an in ice estimate because not everybody reports here and there they're taxing from this from this town because if they're held at the corporately held up elsewhere but it's certainly an important lifeline for the detail document i'm just going to flip through from here to the local receipts page because i it's all the local receipts here the estimates are fully loaded as you would expect and forecast give you give some context last year which was a partial year fiscal fiscal ten i'm on page six is the art chart fiscal ten which is the for the last complete year and it was a partial year for the increase in the meals taxes about three quarters of the year we're in six hundred fifty to compared to the prior to three ninety two but because it's a partial year and in the first quarter is in and it was nice trend and then when you annualize that for the for the other quarter that was we did not have the increase for i'm estimating this year will be over eight hundred thousand about eight or nine and for fiscal twelve as estimating about eight hundred thirty thousand so it's it's really been a nice revenue pick up for the town unfortunately we've gone down in some other areas like building permit fees etc which also move significant in motor vehicle excise tax that that came down by a couple hundred thousand last year bear in mind because we've already bump schedule and that it's a two point two million dollar bill the town has the norfolk county pension and they pulled the funding schedule in over the last two years by six years from fully funding in twenty twenty eight to twenty twenty two which increases assessments whereas the state in the r infinite wisdom and some good counsel actually moved out the funding schedule of it in the first year of twenty thirty and i think now they have the flexibility to about twenty forty and so i did speak to the second doctor over there john keenan and he said they're having an updated actuarial presentation by our actuary dan dan sherman for the open later this month and they are going to be considering that there is funding alternatives whether they are going to consider pushing it out they just lost the sheriff's group out of norfolk county pension so they've lost seventeen million dollars of funds to go with it so they've got to factor that in and they're going to be taking up with the going to getting colas as well so they've got to put all that into the pot over there and determine whether or not they're going which does make sense when you dig into it we could potentially save that amount of money or more if there's a reduction to the recession but i think that if they don't do that i suggest that that we it clear that or if the board sees fit in that down there to see if it would make it clear they would like to see them adopt the state's funding schedule to provide some relief to the town but now in the open the reason for putting the money away today is so we put less away later because of compound etc right and since we owe retirement to those folks who are currently working the laying of the payment is is just delaying the inevitable so you use save the hundred thousand this year but now you've got less money in the fund less money earning money in the fund and therefore in the long run you say you're going to have to probably put in more than you would have if you would fund it like we're doing  think the rationale that even brought the extending this funding schedule this date of two thousand and twenty eight to two to the forefront was the fact that the economy tanks so badly the stock market tanks so badly and that  the value of the portfolios went down across the state dramatically so they have this artificial deadline to make up all of that loss in a condensed period of time which would ultimately reduce services and would you know because you'd have to make cuts in  local economies and then reduce budgets would actually have a negative impact on you know on the economy itself and it's an arbitrary deadlines we get there are a fully funded yes you and i in our private lives want to want to be fully funded but when you're managing billions of dollars of liabilities such as this and you have a once in a hundred year down cycle does make a lot of sense to revisit you know basically a re mortgaging at this point i rather mean in an artificial deadline and that's what the the the the think tank that ultimately crafted this legislation that's what they're writing van charmin was one of the people who had a lot of input on that process as well and that's what they've landed on that for those reasons that they read as an arbitrary deadline especially in the face of a one hundred year downturn but they didn't go to corporations across america and say let's rewrite the laws on what you have to fund and those that put the extra funding in the last year when the stock market went from ten to eleven saren increase and so we wait until the stock market recovers and then what the money and we also lose the opportunity of getting back some of that tiling us personally i agree unfortunately not for counties experience was actually the reverse of that they spike their assessment and then the market tanked and so then we lost all of that  them so it was extremely frustrating for friend of our county pensioners is there discussion randy you know we've talked about this at the audit committee you know corporations today do not provide health care to retirees i mean it's just a given today and many corporations most corporations they are providing for time the benefits they provided for a one k and a matching concept and you can do it at fidelity or other place and whatever you have when you retire is what you have and you put your money in and the company matches up with some percentage in the municipal side of things on the state side of things of the pension plans are very lucrative their retirement plans very lucrative the health care very lucrative  discussions at the county level or at the state level to either a change going forward so that new hires after a certain date are impacted and not impacting people that are currently in the system or other changes that would help i mean it's a pallet and so when we go to negotiate you know most unions are going to say take my health care away when i retire take this away makes it very difficult even we know how difficult it was to negotiate the change in health care and the state made changes at the state level that made things for them a lot easier than us so can you share is there any any dialogue at that level on how we can address because this is a structural problem that's going to cripple cities and towns in the state down the road whole thing otherwise it is unfair you know you i agree with moving to pension system you eliminate the pension system anybody hired after the state was to self directed but you you keep the promise for everybody who's in the system so it's a generational move  away same thing with health care you move to a model on retiree health care that's consistent with the majority of the private sector but at the same time you then have to you have to adjust compensation because compensation needs to be brought up in many many cases to where the private sector is so you have to balance the whole thing you can't take this piece way in this piece away and not touch compensation and from what i've seen the pension reform that's been that was just an act it is not the same cycle it's reduction of the benefit without without addressing compensations are really require some significant leader state levels which i have yet to see in my short the short answer is in terms of serious pressure to reform we're serious post retirement health care cost employee health care costs reform don't rely on the legislature for any meaningful change not there is no discussion going on so the most important issue to the cities and towns of benefit plan design for active employee health insurance to give the cities and towns no more authority than the state already have with its you know huge plan and they won't give it to us so you know don't expect anything meaningful or she does are going to happen to the extent there's opportunities in their o we will be have to do those locally and we are working on all sorts of initiatives already any you know any other funding sources that are available to the town any grant funding try to incorporate that into the mix that year and i believe the the guideline for the budget process this year is going to be the it just means that it's highly unlikely to be approved we're trying to avoid layoffs or reductions in force through attrition because those reductions since we're a service industry we cut employees we cut services actually i'm it so we're trying to avoid that i'm not overly optimistic right now that will succeed because the gap is so big it will be no new hires you know you know crease  and i would probably challenge the department heads to produce a level funded budget and explain what the implications of that are i might ask you to two budgets one level funded meanwhile we're going to be looking at all these other alternatives simultaneously there's a lot a lot of work that's going to have to happen next few months to get this thing under control because it's it's a big big gap to start on the one point the gap is one point six million dollars what you just explained is i think what randy and andy did last year have the departments give a level of service budget with a paragraph of if we had to go to level funding what we could cut vice a versa so that it's the same exercise as last year samak so going into last year the differential was what i don't have that out the top of my h healthy number i don't think it was this big i will be asked and i'm also not generally speaking to cut expenses budgets unless they can show that it's a real you don't want to get in the game of underfunding expenses and like building maintenance accounts and things like that you can't do that i mean at the end of the day if we can't produce the revenue to support this committee not just randy's and in the past the board of selectmen in the school committee haven't voted to adopt those numbers as a promise and so everything kind of falls on randi if things were down and we've said that the board the two boards are the ones who should and probably rightfully so since we do different things but if there's some type of a connection we can get you know when you go to them maybe the member comes here a one of us go there just there's a lot of stuff in the wind articles in this budget that if there's a little bit of synergy it might go a long way so i'll be attending their next meeting people before me john there and we're going to go over these same numbers with them again and kind of share what we said and here a couple months ago yes and i'm with a lot of issues yet that way so i was looking at it was a vote made kind of a probation period three years i want your one year any other issue since that happened there was a lot of promises made that you were going to do this that actually we are we have had all our entire staff certified by j p l we do our prescience meetings with all our staff we reassure our daily basis the proper procedure checking i d s you know monitoring our customers want to come and make sure we're not over serving we still have our police detail every on the weekends and we have been absorbing them out of the door guys i believe that we are really you know exceeding our expectations on public safety at this point the details that's relatively new you  approval things from his yes i haven't seen from the chief that kevin help on this one we usually you know leave room for approval for the chief you can make it conditional upon the chief's approval if you discussion i'm not in favor of a no i just it was a few months ago i thought the i thought the violations as egregious in there were so many of them you know looking back at all the promises that were made coming  i'd my preference is to run it through here keep apples to apples make everything the same if it's fine after a year then entertain it but i will not support an extra extra hours on a sunday until this is all over serving since that day absolutely not the police were called in or anything like i know not for or not for anything like that we've not had any police orders or a place we haven't received any reports yeah not i was my my understanding was by louise but it needed to be that's relevant for of my decision i think within a few months it's not tested to make sure that everything that you have promised is lot of information from departments and we talked about potentially sifting through those you know coming up with a list that could dovetail into our ranking structure you're so perhaps now we'll have propose for the board this list is not intended for you to go through and say yes no yes no no this is just to give you an idea of what's been requested right now the one number seventeen you can delete because the supplement to the veterans budget when he went to the reserve fund transfer is not as large as we thought it looks like it'll be around twenty thousand and nineteen a civil fingerprint checks from the chief you can down off because that's not going to be ready in time now on some of these will drop off i can tell you because they will be ready so we're told the department h will keep the door open for you if you get the wording in great but if you don't get it in one you're not going to put it forward to the board goes we're not going to put you in the position of dealing with impartial stuff and then put the advisory committee in the position of tearing their we've talked about a january day yet you know the big issue that's driving that is the agreement with the patriots you can't get into a lot of that publicly i know it's not done yet so and i would turn to larry for some guidance here if the presumption is we will be ready then i would say january twenty fourth would be the right date because the seventeenth as i'm ok day you can't meet on that day obviously twenty fourth will be the last third fourth monday and january and that would be ok but that's predicated on if you picked that date tonight and you voted were tracked into it  don't have to pick the date and i don't have to pick the date tonight know so and sense most of it deals with that one issue i would ask the board to give us just another couple of weeks to bring back three minutes before we go walking in  meeting is fourteen twenty thirty we're going to try to have a draft warrant on your desk not a night with as many of these articles as we think are ready the ones that aren't ready we're probably going to say the proponents what if you can't have it ready by the twenty third when i are trying to rush it so what you'll have back will be a subset of this list but in warrant in actual one order if it should happen by the next meeting that you're ready to pick a date of the big needed appreciated so i think that it helps us but i think it really helps all not only think that apartments together but by will be being willing to share that with the newspapers and it just helps the community understand all the things that are going on a a solid and just just so the people had what it what it is it's twenty four areas that you looked into and it's not just department heads you've you've met with a lot of volunteer groups playing boards are people going to volunteer your time and they sat with kevin it was supposed to be for about twenty minutes and it ended up being about to i was going through this and  which is at a level of beginning executive time to minister and these these folks get their m p s and then they go out to jobs as t a s and small communities so you're getting essentially like a t a from another from a very small community very talented folks comparison for all the unions that was done by and in turn the fee analysis departmental fee analysis report that i showed you that was done by and in turn that report alone and hang them generated some or two and a quarter and a half million of new revenue for it we paid five thousand one hundred dollars a week that we actually it was less than five because the interim left after six months got a job so we paid about one hundred dollars a week we paid about twenty six hundred dollars of that and  projects we want ten hours he gets to sit in on meetings and see things that i'm doing that you know would be he he would be tasked to do so he's getting some education of the same time that he's given us something back as a practical matter i suspect we'll get more than out of him because he's very enthusiastic and he likes to do it now we don't have anything budgeted for this to be anywise cost would be five thousand dollars if he stays the whole time however you have identified form a something called the economic development account which is on mitigation money that was given to us for the purpose of doing economic development type projects from the chestnut green development board that these funds have to be under your control if that was approved it would be current balance of fifty three thousand seven hundred ten and it would authorize up to but not exceeding five thousand pending plan how long he stayed to be paid  is fondue is not set on a fiscal year basis so this would be for a fifty two week period beginning beginning this week actually because he's actually here working it was here today to november of next year so to be the amount necessary now this is something that i'm hoping to put in the budget will be tough so if we don't put it in the budget then we would pay it out of this to all of them for the next year and assuming we didn't have other projects for this money i'd probably ask you for another five next november to go to november two thousand and twelve i don't know yet if this will go over the budget if we put it in the budget then we will need to hold five type part and by the way on that note i expect to be coming back to you sometime soon with a request to again using this fund to get the road inventory going i don't know whether that's going to be a piece of software or it's going to be you know having the interne tiles to do this or just what is going to look like but bob and i have the first discussion about it today and he's working on it right now to let us know you know what he needs in order held on the twentieth and the twenty first