that construction is that is that dictionary referenced in your specification anywhere it is not there why would we assume a computer dictionary would be something that a person of ordinary skill would look to in determining that and related to heart because the field here is a rather computer graphics that's what we're dealing with and the display that's presented is a computer display there are specific references to that and that's the reason why it's in that field now this constructors do you see the word page as referring to what we think of as a page like a page in your brief or as sort of a body of information lodged in the computer i mean i got the sense or you may disagree in reading the patent bunch of provisions and it seemed that page was referring to not what i would think of normally is a page  sort of information collected in the computer well i think your honor what it refers to in the first instance is what the driver says it's that the image that's presented to the driver but there are also some reference information freestanding is an important part this is where jaguar land rover has going to strike what they try to point to is the disembodied information any information under their construction my answer to your monitor would be a page it's a collection of information that could be displayed on a page and that's the other problem that they have then talk about what can be displayed but in the patent and in the microsoft page is what is displaying in the selectable area that's what that's what the patent says that's one of the limitations in claim one and some of the other claims so again i ask you about you have as i read your brief two arguments challenging the district court's construction one says that the page has to have formatting such as certain things and the other is that it has to take up the full not part of the page what do i do with on the assumption that i read it that way what do i do with that conclusion because it seems to me that would pretty strongly suggest the page is not the full screen it would suggest that you're on that is that you'll have if we get to write that one fifty four i guess are the identifiers one fifty six is what you call the page one twenty two is the selectable area and one fifty six is the page we don't think there's a difference and we have the illustration of what would be necessary for there to be a difference what would happen is that the page would be in the shape in the bottom right here where there is no identifier the idea would be that this is a package with this part here and then that little indentation and that's not a realistic way to read figure  well i mean why why not write to me seems to me for if one starts in the abstract without regard to this patent and ask what this page mean in the computer world it seems to me it does not whatever else it has it doesn't have a plain meaning it has a variety of ordinary meaning that the page on the website you can show the whole thing on the screen but you're not typically looking at that tape all at once on the screen because that's what scrolling does it boost moves things around if one turns to the context here it seems to me you have the use of the term page in the spec as in the elaboration on figure t different from the page certainly the identifiers are separately mention but there's not a patent that calls them different from the page that's what's being argued about and what is it that makes you think that the page couldn't meaning we think the reason plain as demonstrated in the microsoft computer dictionary well what do you mean what would you do with what i mean by the example that i gave when i go to the wall street journal homepage i'm not looking at the whole thing the whole time and when i and that's sort of on one hand i don't have to look at the whole thing and the other thing is on my screen i have maybe two windows and i have that up and something else up it's not taking up my whole my whole screen either i'm just not sure where i get the notion that everybody knows that a page even in this broad context is something that feels about screen well this  and neither goes either is a component of the screen or extends beyond the screen so let's say your honor is looking at the wall street journal the wall street journal this up on the page on the screen it is it is filling the screen  why do i scroll all the time you scroll to look at something else that was on the same page when not clicking i'm not getting anything i mean they call it a page on the same on the same page how are you using that term you my only point is that term has no plain determinant meaning outside a particular context it has a range of meanings and we use it in even in the computer world in a variety of ways it is true that there are different i mean you seem to think that the microsoft dictionary is controlling for all computer graphics but i don't see anything just that that's the case well that's not the only other computer dictionaries that have other death pages there might be around them but this with this idea that there is a plain meaning as shown by that action we did present in europe and the question then becomes what is there in the patent that that takes away from it and the idea that judge toronto expressed that the identifiers are stated to be different from the page i don't think that's borne out by the pat there certainly hasn't been cited anything by jaguar land rover that that shows how it's different they tried to make an argument so i guess i was i was thinking of a column for line sixty one to sixty five that seems to use a selectable area for each and identifier is three separate things simple as that  without saying and by the way the identifiers are part of the page well certainly euro there's something different there but what it says on line sixty one one or more areas within selectable area one twenty two can be reserved to the display identifiers one fifty four for some or all of the pages that doesn't say they're not part of the page it does say that there are there are different function if you will but it doesn't make them different different words are being used because just like if you set the parameters that will make the parameters not part of the page and the parameters are also repeatedly discussed as in using a separate there be a parameter well we know that's wrong because in the following five lines mind of thirteen there's a reference to a welcome page the welcome page does not have parameters it's not  should just know your into your rebuttal time and we do have four full cases so you can continue or reserve the remainder i'll reserve your ok thank you thank you for more good morning hours may please the cork the issue before us today is where the district court got its construction of pages to construct the district court construction of pages is correct because it's consistent with the entr it's consistent with the claims in the specification that both describe the invention having a display and you can see this in figure two it's a single display with three areas a fixed area selectable area and two warning areas on the outside how do we know that some of those are not overlapping with others as i died kind of take it one one way of thinking about this to create this is argument is that one fifty six those take up all of one twenty two but there is an overlay and the page one fifty six we know that for two reasons we know that because the specification in calif lines nine through ten says this flexible page can only displays get it in the brain that portion th it's true that the line from one twenty two in the line to one fifty six terminate at places but that doesn't tell me entirely whether for example what's meant by one fifty six is yet it doesn't tell me what's meant by one fifty six except that it's different from one twenty two it could be essentially the entire area taken after that includes the identifiers with is viewed as part of the page i would suggest that this fact that shows a difference is important because what it shows is one twenty two being drawn to the boundary shows that it's actually the boundary of the selectable area but the one fifty six doesn't have the same boundary as the selectable area it's a different it goes to the area that's you know just like one fifty four goes to the area of the identifiers but i think there's two important points here is first you don't even have to get to the identifiers being part of fixed area they're not the warning areas so we know the face of the specification but i think the pages do not have to be a complete screen or a complete display because they're not in a fixed area and they're not in the warning areas so that alone rejects the eighty's construction it's place through do you see read the word page as describing what is displayed or is it a description of information lodged in the computer information that are used to adjust the parameters so the patent and so that suggest it's information correct collection of information as opposed to something on the screen although could be  claims in the specification to be a collection or sex of a minute section of information that can be displayed on the screen at one time but it's not necessarily displayed on the screen it could be just lodged in the computer before it's brought up on the screen correct because it play would have a far larger problem that they were trying to patent information correct so the information in various formats that can be called up to us display correct correct and so because the v i p s construction is inconsistent with the claims and the specification i tried to require to be one complete full screen we know that's incorrect with regard to the second part of the i d s instruction really changed their position at the district court format  time imagining literally a hard time imagining a listener looking as you know a jackson pollock screen what the screen would look like without formatting that's exactly right that's the same question the judge anders had below and there was a lot of back and forth between judging a rufous and the district and the ideas council which is on a nine hundred fourteen through a nine hundred sixteen asking those exact questions where what is the difference between the formatting and the patent pages shown on two and four and the their expert referred to them as being a statically pleasing but if you look at page nineteen other apply they've walked away from all that page nineteen or apply for the first time they say none of these specific types of formatting are one their proposed construction i think on this point was formatting such as so it wasn't even limited to those particular things and that led me to wonder what what meaningful addition to the claim language there would be if you said require the two of you have expressive the you in your briefs here about whether in order for there to be a reason to disturb the district court's judgment appear on that screen there are alternatives ok what you can see by the arrows you see the black arrows that are up and down that those are proving from one to the other you know those are controls understeering really you can page up or page down and you can go from one to three through all these different pages and so it's programmed and you can see how this pages will show will satisfy any claim construction because the pages here are just like the pages and figures two and four they're both t and boxes pages and figures two or four text but that is next on the pages here of text and boxes if anything the pages here have more formatting because they've got the vertical adjustment part that's the box with the plus the top and the so you can scroll up and down your list it's also got with the pattern expressly teachers as far madding highlighting you can see if you look at back five for example the fahrenheit is highlighted because that's why you want fahrenheit to show on your dashboard as opposed to even close and it's claimed destruction order and it is brief and attorney's fees because we've not only won the claim construction summary judgment order here since that we submitted a twenty ha letter in january eighth of this year were judged and we found attorneys fees were awarded partly because of the exceptional claims instruction from judge and is found on the part of the u s p s proposed instruction requiring formatting is so lacking in support that two pages of information makes clear that the page is the state from the information that's one of the major problems with the district court's construction the district court said information page that can't be true when we have a page of information how does how does the difference that you're arguing between the content of a visual representation and the visual representation bear on the  several things about that first of all we do not advocate for a reversal based on the formatting point that's presented as a claim construction issue we do not say that it solves this case but let me make a point about the given the purpose of the invention something different is required let me explain the purpose of this invention is to allow the driver to keep his or her eye on the road and to avoid distraction if what we had is terms is it must be sufficient to call the driver's attention to the mr more mentioned of the languages well one of them is highlighted it has to be something that would enable the driver the driver easily to see the information simply using five to a paragraph structure he wouldn't necessarily meet that meet that problem but that's not that's not the basis that we're arguing to pay attention to your clock you're here actually over time so if you can literally wrap up in two sentences necessarily match up with the vehicles all jaguar presented regarding the safety was the illustration of the record shows that they may not be accurate they cannot provide a basis for