by the one of these two doors here that will lead you outside into the parking lot to the south but these doors are blocked please go out the main lobby and out the front doors and around to the south tom hubbard and i will be responsible for ensuring that everybody is out of the building thank you so the third item is agenda review are there any additions deletions or changes in order of agenda items seeing none will move on to number four comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda is there anyone here to speak on a different issue seeing none will move on to the main agenda and this is our council working session on the public facilities and city center so blue spaces and we have until approximately nine o'clock to chew on this a little bit more design phase and part of the tip district and we met last to report on the project in july and since then we'll continue with the cost estimate ing and the design work very this here also and i'm going to ask them to join me with steve roy has the architect on the project and john stetson who plays the pre construction manager for angle birth construction so respectively the architect and the contractor who's working with us and me construct the project line with the funds available and also so to get a realistic picture of what it would cost based on what's needed so they work the cost estimate works in concert with the design  and it's very much an it or a process and there's two teams working on both sides so one team is working on the design and doing calculations on the building and you know looking at the notes from the public and meeting with different folks over the past few weeks we met with caterers we met with the clerk's office we met with both holly the director of recreation as well as jennifer koch when we met with the i t staff for the city read and various other parties so all of these different activities are happening in the design side and then on the estimating side there are various folks who are working to collect data and information using both what they have in house but then calling out and finding out current pricing on various aspects and multiple different disciplines not just one person but multiple people who are experts in that those fields in terms of the cost of construction and then checking to get additional information and john can talk more to that so and then the whole team gets together and talks about can we do this can we do that what are some big cost saver and so it's a big back and forth it takes a lot of time to go through that process and we're also at the very early stage so there's not a lot known so a lot of times you're just discovering oh well i was thinking this and i was thinking this and sort of coming together and doing some more investigation of both sides to come up with an answer or direction or at least identify the areas that we don't know so  so we're now on i think the third or fourth  i'm not sure i usually i think because i think everyone's being very understanding of the interest in november vote and so there have been many estimates at this stage which normally we might wait until a later stage  to get to to continue working at this detail so so so since the last meeting we learned new information there are new discoveries and  rather than costs going down the overall estimate went up and the main drivers for this were cars associated with the site so much better understanding of what the needs of the and that's in the front of the building and the rear of the building we have additional information about the interiors in the types of acoustical requirements as well as some of the finishes and then in terms of the foundation  we had better calculations from the structural engineers and a better sense of how heavy the building would be and and better how collations on the soil the soil's and so that increase the size of the foundations which means that much larger concrete pads underneath the building underneath the columns holding up the structure so during this time we've also incorporated a lot of value management savings features and so and those checks indicate savings which have already been taken so if they're either there or easy to do we've done them and where there's not much it's more of a no brainer well we'll go from this material to that material there's not much of a difference in performance or rather than spec in one particular thing leaving it open to multiple multiple vendors things like that and then there are other types of savings that can be pursued and so those that are those that really city and then savings which reduce the function or program so over the past week we were able to take about eight hundred thousand and i think in my last email to you i indicated i thought we would be able to reduce it by five hundred thousand and we were able to find eight hundred thousand and that's more of the low were national materials are have been taken out we had a stair from the third floor to the roof it's kind of a nice to have item but we don't really have it on any of our other buildings that's not used as frequently as other parts of the exterior materials and i think that changed like three or four times because we reduced the rear wall we also took the elevated platform out of the auditorium because it did squeeze that space and although it really only affected the storage closet the ramp to the up to the stage took away from the overall size of the stage so because of that we removed the platform and i'm telling you that now because that's really important we should surface windowsills are now hardwood that's consistent with what we have today and we have day lighting in the downstairs corner and revised the stair to site and i will tell you that the stair design keeps changing it's not a static design item i think it's something that the stairs a big feature and and it can be an organizing feature on the floor and so it keeps moving as the library designers work with in space and try to make it better but we have also looked at elements of the stair that were expensive and how to revise those so that they're less expensive so for example the real  design so there are additional changes that we don't have numbers for yet that they're still being looked at either to get a final detail for what they would be from the architects or from and go is working to get an estimate a cost estimate for those items and so especially on the exterior there's been a lot of discussion and continued exploration ways to make the building lighter  and also still looking at the exterior some of the finer materials on the exterior and how those can be changed to retain the impact but not be as expensive so i'm going to let steve walk you through the building and talk about some of the teachers i have get so just walking through kind of the current trend interation we are still continuing to look at things and see how we can improve them in every case or save money this is the particular view from market street so we have  a at the moment a current covered bike area here couple of flagpoles for state and national flags we have looked at this this is one of the main circulation stairs to get up all three floors of the building we have kept that we have made some adjustments to how it gets built in an effort to save some money we have this granite banding at the bottom and along the front entrance in an view but this is this is a glass railing that allows the terrorists for the library to see some of the action that's happening on the street this would be the main entrance location there will be a library book drop off as well as a tax drop box adjacent to the main entrance or attempt here is really to provide a lot of glass that visual connection into city clerk in the in desk and the remaining materials around it are you know nice or in a little bit more refined with the granite we will we can look at options for changing those materials out of the living room portion which we've talked a lot about in the past would be this location here this then becomes the children's library from this point to the east second floor of the library we have a lot of  elements meant to shade we have a little bit of a an orientation towards the west so all of the vertical elements are meant to help shade from afternoon glare and sun we have some horizontal shading elements which are to help reduce glare from after you know from daytime sun from the south we also have this ten foot overhang of the solar panels on the south end of the building which will help to shade the top floor windows so those are some of the defining features of the outside from this view composite fake brick or is yeah yeah painted finish so we expected to last longer and have a little bit of a natural patina to it a lot of character  from other companies but it's more or less a high density material solid like three eights of an inch thick can come in different patterns and textures on the top what we're looking at is roughly an eight inch wide board that's has a small gap to allow air movement around it so there would be vertically oriented inch wide pieces of that material concrete poured concrete if you were to take and i ask this because there was a whole section in the paper last friday in the wall street journal last friday about concrete homes and buildings and it's fascinating  things can be done with concrete so when you say granted i thought well maybe that's a lot more expensive than concrete it would be less expensive the finishing gets expensive with those i saw that same article i thought was great yeah  berth by the way in the concrete we could do or i would say that we would do that for less than what the granite is because with the granite that's have been here and then you still have the supporting at the proper angle from that that would be part of the construction manager scope above that we would be able to get out to different solar vendors to let them know that they can use that surface to trust network yeah they're not locally but there are some very high profile examples tim was that one in seattle less last week actually the bullet center so that's an opportunity to look staff functions everything we're planning to provide could be done in a way that is green roof ready and not necessarily needing to be done at opening day this starts to show layout will be determined but the the panel angle is set in a way to gain a little bit more efficiency will space the panels out so that water actually drops down into the roof so we have some water management and snow management there i'm sorry when you mention the challenge of this oil and the need to have story well everything against everything anything is possible with enough money within that everything that is planned for has an impact on the weight of the building so for ok we're  sharing this value i believe the cost and you can correct me in order to build above the terrace we have a ten thousand four hundred square foot future buildable area terraces but the costs of the steel structure and the concrete foundation to support that weight is actually a hundred fifty thousand dollars of extra material so there is a pretty significant cost to plan for that if we were to consider going up an additional floor elsewhere it would have a similar impact to the to the  system this is a current site plan the team has met with the school and has approval for this design it has been sent to the square design ownership team for their review and we have had a few meetings with them also to talk about some of the issues that that occur between the two sites as you can see we are there new street along this property line which with a sixty foot right of way we are right on the thirty foot from center line of road with the building and it's right up to the to the property lines basically on all sides  with the exception of the i would square we have that distance here to allow for driveway access into their into their garage they currently travels through here has been working to determine how they would build that corner so there's more information available with how that would be phased in a way that residents could be using you know basically which it yeah that the developer of this parcel owens all of that so their plan was to have a similar building adjacent to it with an underground parking connection or other method of connecting so that's this important point and right now they still own this this land we just say purchased so at at the time at the time that they initially began the cathedral square to development they encumbered the second lot and then they relinquish to back to south burlington realty so it wasn't covered with the driveway and then they relinquish control back to south carolina to realty so they did not control the second lot or how it made it easier to do the transaction frankly to get the option for my question stands that the purchase and sale agreement that we have is still dependent on them being satisfied with how they can access this is that's correct so if they're not satisfied with their access to their owners around the raj they could derail or not sell us the parcel of land that we're putting this library on is that correct  we have to work with them to make sure they have access but we have the option of south burlington realty or an outsider or them city center elsie that's an important point though so they go but this has to work for them  not saying i want this i'm saying this is a question i've heard from other people if it were scaled back to just be a library no city hall would we still need the land from the school district and would we need underground parking and if we needed underground parking for just  library what would the cost estimate then the rough ballpark and trying to get an idea of how much officials use there are achieving achieved by putting the city hall in the same space at the library because that makes sense but i just described could we get the parking for just a library on there or would it mandate the underground parking that they originally planned on and can i answer that later on although i will warn you i can't answer that question because we'd have to do a considerable redesign to understand yes so what we have on the site with the building here there's new school access so the existing school parking lot and so right around here this is an addition of parking spaces that are being point between the school and anything that happens next to that easement line so the school has approved this design there is one connection in this area and the main main entrance but otherwise this parking here as well as this parking is for this parcel itself first floor plan not a lot of big changes since the last time we talked but to walk except for the stairs yes so looking at some of the major areas and the highest cost finishes those have not changed we anticipate the lobby and info desk  the living room of the library in the stairway area as well as the auditorium those are those being the probably the most expensive areas within the space within the first floor   these are just draft views but looking at the info desk from inside the lobby so this pretty large glass wall behind you in this particular version you can start to see  somewhere but the library stair in the living room would be through that space trying to create a glassy enough area that it doesn't feel too small trying to put some local touches to the finishes that being we have a photo of it and i think in one of the next slides that can explain it the view of mansfield from wheeler park so trying to get south burlington related inspiration  into the finishes as we move forward the red rocks park is well looking at perhaps some local stone or wood materials throughout those spaces  this is the stair as it has been we are continuing to work on it and the reasons we're working on it is one to create a little bit better functional space within but trying to get a similar approach to  having a visual connection to the second floor having a skylight that brings light down all the way to the first floor what we're able to do by moving the stair over in our latest version is to provide circulation desk and the staff adjacen ies that are really preferred it also helps to define the living room space away from the circulation zone so functionally we think we can improve it while keeping the kind of the wow factor  this would be kind of a draft rendering of the periodical periodicals but it's the living room so this would be looking out on to market street the well shaded so you don't have a lot of glare but it's a lot of natural light at the same coffee a coffee top so here's some inspiration for that living room space you know a fireplace maybe has some seating in and it kind of built into it some artwork this is kind of an example of that glassy wall that's facing market streets a lot of light nice place to sit and read a newspaper or any other article the auditorium this is a little bit more of a grander scale but you know there maybe there's going to be some acoustical ceiling treatments that happen and it's cool all treatments in this area as well the seating we've looked at as being the retractable kind so there's some opportunity for different types of events to occur this ramp so one of the cost savings methods that was discussed was allowing this to be a flat floor all the way across the state of having to raise platform so that's a little unusual that in the picture i'm in trouble this this is not a rendering this is just a sample so where's the ramp that would be thinking well it would be this one right here so this goes from this floor level up to a raised platform expensive or less expensive not retractable see the cost of the seating for the application we have i think is about seventy thousand dollars the advantages you can you can build a flat floor which is less expensive to build and you have the flexibility to use that for other purposes if you you could buy chairs for less money than that and you could put them on a flat floor and have you know any of the same yes i get only one so it's yes there's plenty of different ways we could organize it each one has their own costs of course but so we could we could build a floor with fix seats that would be slightly less expensive for the seating the floor itself would add cost would be limited and the use would be limited correct a few of the other areas within the first floor that would have a slightly higher budget the senior center up on the right hand corner so there is an activity space its own living room as well as storage and catering kitchen within the library we illustrate you know these items are listed as in in chairman and what makes the space special whether it's whether it's a pretty literal tree or whether it's a bit more of a  you know what's the word stratum abstract tree thank you so this you know this takes that approach it has a coup school clouds that can also help in that manner so those are and some other examples of exploring in providing new opportunities with more space here's a blown up view of senior activity room so this is we have some different test fits to show the types of activities that could happen this one is just happens to be the round table version from from an entrance they could enter the senior activity room in have any form or use that they're talking about this living room has a fireplace currently with some bookshelves and it also has an activity sink in a little bit of storage directly off of it and some of the inspiration is on the next page this would be kind of a draft rendering of the living room space so the idea as it gets developed will be you know different types of seating arrangements the ability to have barn doors to close off areas if they are you know not wanting access or are not wanting people to to have a little separation this is looking out again a draft rendering of that type of space this little kitchenette here this is the catering kitchen which would have its own access point so if meals are being served you could you can gather your meal and and sit down and that would be the type of you know bringing that excitement up to the second floor and it being a central part of the library quite reading room down in this area special seating areas that maybe there could be furniture elements that could be a few built in elements but some some special places within the library that they create special zones and the raised floor area would take kind of taking advantage of the height that we would like in the auditorium to create a raised platform and reading area so the following page we have a couple examples of kind of interesting furniture types that within an open or a large space have classrooms in and teach digital opportunities or to have a perhaps a green wall and allow for media making and just activities and to explore in a part of this this is a very similar concept to that raised area over the auditorium so you could take a similar form is this but the idea that there's some interesting transitions in different spaces that occur within what is kind of a large footprint one of the concepts that we've been working with throughout this process has been growing it is well known for its paths and here's one so bringing that inspiration into the building whether it's you know a path that happens within a carpet or tile perhaps it's something on the ceiling that defines that t the shared meeting rooms for public use would have the kind of medium level of cost finish a couple of examples just of the types of spaces that that could happen but smaller meeting rooms pretty simple table chairs some connection for media along the wall and some simple lighting there is a larger board room flight so we're people in the process that value management and very aware that that if this project is to be voted on in november a lot of decisions need to be made between now and then and so we're really bringing this to you for your consideration our current estimate is that twenty three point five million dollars and that cost in clude some cost that we would not include in the seventeen point eight three million dollars the tax rate impact based on an eighteen million dollars bond is one tenth of a cent and that's about eight hundred sixty thousand which is the amount  that we were scheduled to be contributing that the city was scheduled to be contributing to the reserve fund and was reduced last year when we think about that ted the first ascent that's about twenty six thousand dollars annually in addition to the hundred sixty thousand and if you'd like i can pull up the spreadsheet i do you have it here and i think and we have copies for you to look at that calculation  on this twenty one point eight million is based on what's left after the solar array actually i think i have one more slide that i want to show you so this is the assumption for the city share a bond when we talk about what the contribution to the reserve fund would be in order to make the bond payments we're not counting any capital campaign contribution contributions that might come to the from to the city from the capital campaign with the exclusion of the fund which we are counting or public facilities impact this is so i'm excluding one hundred i was excluding one hundred eighty i'm actually excluding last for that i'm excluding about one hundred thousand now for the development of a new roadway beside the city hall building and that roadway would be funded using impact fees because it is the city center street so using not and that's a separate impact fee from the public facilities which is the plan impact th and the to find so the earlier slide this new twenty one to be includes all the work to be done to the rick market central school property including the parking lot and what we would go to school with this arrangement let me go array all of our fees all the design fees up utility hook ups everything but then there are certain costs like the solar array which have a much shorter pay down period so and also generate revenues so we're separating out that because we can we can structure that cost differently from the ground but a lot of what is the number that would go to the voters number that we go to the phone or is something about seventeen point eight three million dollars for the city share and something about four point six four million dollars for the tips what is the aggregated number th need to also do their parking on all those other things i want to know those numbers so i can explain it to them and say with a straight face that this is this creates economic efficiency by putting them all in the same property so i'm interested in j's i question as well as how much it costs to roadway so the roadway would have to stay on the roadway that goes to allard square width which starts below grade would need to go underneath the building so you so you would have to make the building taller in order on the second floor in order to accommodate a garbage truck to and so there would be additional foundation costs to accommodate that additional height you could decide not to put any parking associated with the building so if there was no parking associated with the building then you wouldn't have to deal with the structural weight of the structure to support a parking garage if you included the park parking garage then that becomes an additional it does not it doesn't now but there would be no parking associated with this building if there was no school property so if it was just a library it would make the most sense that we'd hoped we'd have to put parking my question was next door l or square does have parking room but it's a different style structure building it's different because it's just residential it's wood from the third for a second floor so with a little says this is essentially a six story building because it's one it's library loading it's a steel and concrete building which is just much heavier than than the neighboring building going concrete last much longer  be extended so another site may be available but i don't think that one will be available after three after three or four if you look at your project was november the mean another site someplace would be available but i don't think that  the other part of the question i still have and again i'm not endorsing this path i'm trying to be able to reason with those that are questioning the costs a con if there was just a library would council member just stated would parking fit on th so there's the potential if you had most if you actually well probably not i don't think so because i did look at the number of spaces and i believe it was under three hundred twenty everything up to the second and third yeah so so on this site we have to fit the driveway for allard square as well as the  really we would we would have well i guess it depends you would still need to required us points from any floor of the library and then as a way of connecting you would still probably have the monumental stair as a communicat that's yeah that's one of the required  it would depend a little bit on what you're trying to connect and how open it is it's probably i would say it's probably most likely to have three stairs still but if these are  but you're not you're yelled at spaces because it's an awkward size and you have you still have that access routes where and it happen at high cost per space price so one of the advantages of residential types of buildings is the depth matches parking very well so the example at alland square is a very efficient parking zone because the building is sixty to sixty five feet deep having the library that we have now is  wider to accommodate the spaces to use but you you know you may not want a long narrow building as a library either so that adds to the inefficiency of of underground garage but you're also i mean if if we went with just a library and cost was not necessarily the driver but just the conversation or a discussion is  just built a library with i guess the auditorium on that spot is it your belief that we wouldn't need to have the the property swap from the school for parking and the utilities could it all fit on that property because if it can't the arguments i think it can always fit on the property i'm not sure what floor everything would end up being on but it can always fit on the property with enough parking spaces with you would still have offsite parking spaces it would be and we don't own them unless we just sort of too bad it's public property which i'm sure they would appreciate yeah i think that would be u largely go back to step one redesign of the of the building and yeah just so there are no plans to help you go through the steps because we were talking about kind of rough cost and what we could afford without asking taxpayers to pay more than what we have in reserve and to cover and so we had first in the vision and library city hall rec gymnasium and office space too expensive so we went down to a library city hall and then the library got bigger with the senior center attached and so i think that i guess i just i don't feel the appetite among voters and i'm more you are no only you i don't feel the appetite among voters to go to go above and and i've been asking around too and and i think that we have to think about this differently as opposed to what is our i don't put into play and i would suggest i think that the library is truly what has come to the fore as to and i'm going to you know think very pragmatically here and again this is all for discussion to say don't shoot arrows and i'm not wedded to this but allard square is going to have a social space i've been in other ca we paid so far for the architectural see if we can get it to fit on our plot of land with some parking and the animal you is no longer needed and it's within a number that the voters can rally behind i see no reason why not take them i understand everybody loves to have this beautiful building and everything they want in it but we have to realize that we're not spending you know money that comes freely and i am very sensitive to and i've talked to people in lots of neighborhoods not only in my neighborhood i've been out to dig holes talking to people so this is something they have to really be  l and then tough on an infrastructure basis not including program space not including where people actually do things if you want just rolled back to a library with senior center without se the auditorium you're still going to need much if not more expense on infrastructure in order to do what you need to do or not in other words what i'm asking is is the savings that significant know i know china hates to think that you're right there's a there's a lot of us you're going to pay one way or the other i just in my mind i don't know where the line gets drawn where we say we're going to chop our x where feet the price isn't going to decrease proportionately to the x where feet i'm asking so what i'm asking is how much is it actually going to go down and is this worth having this discussion or is a savings not so significant that in essence we're spending a fortune to build something less when to build what we initially started out looking at is not that much more i have no idea i think it's also worth mentioning that you the library the way it's set up takes up a large portion of the first floor and the entire second floor hall the architects are partner in this has done about ninety librar not a single one of them is three stories tall there's a reason and that's because of staffing capabilities for libraries thinking about just putting the library on a mess you go three that question but it sounds like what i'd like to do is i was asking you when i should have been talking to explain exactly what you know why do the voters have to see a twenty two million dollar you know can you just explain in the clearest possible terms how that would look but i'm and you also made it pretty clear that we can't use or look to the university mall space once it changes hands for anything so take that out of the picture and we still have our needs but i'm not up for spending a disproportionate amount of money to build a library that if you then looked at it on a square foot basis goes through the roof because we still yet it was a ballpark number and we really said six point five million dollars and i think that it's worth asking that's all i think it's worth asking the questions but we've got to have the right answers before we can make any of these drastic any drastic decisions i'm just going to ask another question before you maybe say want to explain what i want to ask the cost of building materials i know has gone up substantially in the last year i know because million bucks worth i mean that's that's not sixteen or seventeen to twenty two but there's a million of it right there just in and then the foundation the foundation is significant right and i know i know i understand that from having worked on a on a hotel project where all of a sudden oh my god you mean that site works going to cost another million dollars because the soil so crappy and the answer was yes that's exactly what's go which is the total amount project total amount and how you pay for the debt very different matters ok the part that the voters should be most concerned about is how much are the taxpayers going to have to pay as a component of the overall debt i think what i heard a lot of say a little while ago is that it's eight hundred eighty three eighty eight hundred eighty six thousand dollars a year of which you're already had programmed in the original plan for city center to reserve eight hundred and sixty thousand dollars when we build the budget for f y twenty that number would have been eight hundred sixty thousand dollars because that's what the prior council so all agreed to up until last year when budget cuts needed to be achieved and he went to seven fifty if you maintain the eight hundred sixty thousand dollar track for the next eighteen years and you had twenty three thousand dollars to that twenty six twenty six thousand dollars to that and make it eight hundred eighty six thousand you get the probie of the whole package just for clarity sake so going back to only for clarity certain not to market argue one way or another happening before was working better we had the deputy city manager telling us you know last december that we're in an unsustainable course we we have holes in our roads we have residents complaining  to us i just i this is not the only demand coming forward for city dollars what i'd love to have everything be viewed a full yes but i can't pay for it and i am not alone in you know in this city and a lot of people are telling me they can't pay for it so we have to really time priorities and i understand and how you know the numbers w this but if you're the only thing coming and are the problem there is that the debt saturation level with the budget the budget for another twenty years where it is going to preclude other things that are going to be needed and that's what i'm worried about is that thing that we need in three years to bond for which we million that's an unanticipated need we're going to support a deed right which is then going to force the tax rate up on top of them the health care rates forcing the tax rate up on top of a new contract force an attack you know i mean so you we have to be sensitive to those types of demands on the budget as well as these types of projects and so when you and here's the problem is that when you look at the city streets right and people that drive on with live here complain about  that's just one example those are things that are physical that they can see today but they can't see is well i know there's a library at the u mall or have been there i've used it right i know there's a city hall i think there's probably a dearth of recreation space you know  and senior center space but but look at the streets right you know or were other types of things that are physical tangible that they can know about all the time when they're you know out about a penny for passes a tangible that's going to receive fruition you know in a couple  years or so because of the size of the number i'm worried that it's going to end up precluding other things in the what'll happen is that will make a commitment and then you know three years down the road we'll see health care go up another fifteen percent right and then the cia people come in and they're going to need some major things like a fire truck or whatever it is right my staff there are going to be saying ok now the tax rates are going to be you know three point four five percent or three point six r like i thought you said it was going to cost extra for the library of city hall you know senior center building so those are all those are all great points i just want you know while we're discussing this we've got to think about these types of things because of the number that eight hundred sixty eight thousand which means a rec center cool whatever else might come up in the future is going to be a lot harder to do so that's why i would bring it back to what dave reiterated that question which would help me fully get behind this be able to sell it to the community i would love to know what a library with an underground garage and the auditorium on this one parcel would be because if that's a seventeen or eighteen million dollars proposition again it makes sense to say for five million dollars more i'll give you a whole city city hall there too so i would just love to have the understanding of what just a library would cost so that i can communicate to the residents does that make sense ok but if i cared and on to that we do have to take into consideration that that know as well and factor them in and but your concern is what i said what you just repeated we can't build something g because the voters will vote for this but it's costing us so much it was a dumb thing to do we can't do that either we may not be able to do anything and lastly some on this and don't throw arrows this is just for discussion purposes but in these conversations i've had with people on this notion of a separate city hall building there is less tift time pressure on a spur city hall because it's only ten percent to finance a pool so that ten percent is much smaller than the thirty three percent so i just i think that's important for us to factor it in that if i don't steal as much to time burden on us to get a city hall in the seventeen year window we're now looking know the senior center i forget the numbers offhand but the city council we would be taking those pieces out so that you know perhaps a good balance a little bit more of the first more up into the second probably have not in recent years designed a three story library that that for whatever reason whether it's oversight over the people using it put that space on the ground if you can fit all the assembly space on the ground that would have an impact y floors minimum to force you but you could would it be possible to build the five let's say a four or five story building why keller square with the same sort of cost structure but put the auditorium type open spaces on the first floor would that be feasible and i think we have to balance that the types of spaces that i'm not sure  buildings lots of stuff inside so if we had a big building and perhaps not on that parcel but there was another parcelled up the library that occupied the first for the second floor then that would be the solution i just don't would were one of the challenges is that the library program is quite large and so it takes it's a larger than a residential building first story and  child ends area and so i think that was one of the challenges that this project has taught with is trying to fit all of the program is in a way that made sense for the ground floor has the library for the trauma center which is quite large and then the second story has the adult section which is about twice as large as the children's section and then there's also back of the house staffing and processing which has to be in proximity for oversight so that those staff will double up with the functions inside the library but the second story for the adult section is not i mean it looks open but you can have pillars that support the third story so unlike the children's section on the ground floor where you really want it to be one huge room with it all ha lot was that it would allow there the library and recreation department so doing a lot of collaboration and talking about interactive programming and so on the senior center erect apartment can charge a little bit library my laws and not charge for any kind of their programming be friends in the library raise money for speakers to come in and concerts and things like that we can charge a little bit sooner could be a program that goes on in the library would or would not be charge and that song has lined up a nominal fee for a part of it that would you know be able think to have been included in the scolding the senior center space and tom i think having the city hall of the art you know where people can go and they can do so many different kinds of things in one it could be rented out to realize a little bit of revenue for things like parties engagement parties you know celebrations of different kinds went up the sound system complements the library and the auditorium space so nicely and really it is they should very very sad beyond that to think that that space would be taken out of this really well know i understand your pride i think everyone agrees with you this is a very difficult conversation to look at the reality of finances and the wishes and hopes and what we've see laid out what i think might be productive for us to get to a bottom line number is to continue to go through maybe some potentials to remove some money and see what that looks like in hopes that we you know come to stone yes hi stacy take from the library at work because i have a question about what if the recreation department actually after that it's the total tip i don't have it as a percentage i know once eligible but the eligibility because we have five hundred twenty thirteen and twenty fifteen it's the amount of the cost of the building including the franklin acquisition in everything is higher than what we estimated at the time of the application so in terms of the at the senior center we can still use the thirty percent it's about ninety percent for the library and leave out fifty percent for city hall fifty percent of the ten percent to five percent christie hall probably twenty eight percent for the library and thirty percent recreation would we have to go back to the based on what i've heard from people a library and recreation space the root of my questions here is on that city hall piece and my concern is is about wrecked space as i am concerned to sandy's point that if we go down this path which  so clearly it just locks up our entire reserve fund currently allocated plus another twenty six thousand dollars a year which limits and makes future decisions much harder which i think might push off a wrecked space or wrecked a pool or other priorities we first stand here your points are very well taken and indeed it is an investment the challenge is selling the fact that it's investment to all the people that are going to vote that's always part and you know you know people have trouble visioning what that's going to do for them down the line in my mind it it hanson is the value of choosing south burlington as a place to live for a future families and that's what this city is all about and should be all about having said that we can only build what we can afford so i got are a question that relates to my earlier one incrementally how much will we save if we just build a library with an auditorium i don't know i don't know how long it takes to come to an approximate number but we have to know that number before we can talk about that that opportunity or possibility further and then tim just said something that is interesting on the senior space  which is recreation space maybe this is just and i just used made me think of this right now but we're just having a general conversation as to how we can do stuff that's affordable maybe if we maybe in a couple of years we could then finance one of those stories on the building and that could become the senior space and it would be even more space then we're talking about now just applying this guy idea but his original permit if i'm not mistaken enabled him that building two stories higher than that so so there's there's work in room there too i'm just tossing out ideas the next question i had is how much  i just missed this how if we were to go just to a library auditorium how much parking is there with the i mean how much and how much is there to one of the school property i think we have to go up a level because we  auditorium so you need about sixty parking spaces underground you know order to pull that off that's total number but we're able to fit so less than thirty i think and underground underground parking potential now for the underground utilities correct that because we would need that has offered the school property and we would be right building right to the edge right so you'd have  approximately forty on site and there would be twenty five bicycle parking spaces so that would reduce us to seventy five in there so twenty are developed to work in places where thousand square feet based on library retail they're based on the farm codes so retail can be much higher it can be up to five spaces thousand in a suburban setting to so and the parking that will have will be directly behind the building that will be on site will be directly behind the building and act grade as opposed to  reality is there are a good zillion parking spaces within walking distance to the proposed library but there need to be enough parking places for the critical mass so that people who actually need to be closer is i'd like to because we're because we're just having a general discussion i'd like to hear from kevin talk when we talk about eating up most of our available funds how do you guys see this as the city manager and how do you  we wouldn't lose track of the total picture that we had in terms of priorities for city center and for the use of tip money some of the things that they're making talked about earlier really important things as the finance guy i'm here and you know to me the general fund is is the critical budget and the chip funding right allows us to do some of the things we might not been able to do with the idea of building a city center reserve fund which we've done and we got it up to that eight hundred sixty thousand dollars if last year wasn't so critical in terms of the number of things that we needed to have and had to cut we would've taken it back to the seven hundred fifty thousand and we knew that eight sixty was about in the ballpark where we needed to be so i think the what the story that we've told to the voters over the years is that we're going to have opportunity through to financing to be able to do things that we wouldn't otherwise have been able to do and that's why we went after this secondly we told them that over the course of a number of years we would build a reserve fund that would support the city share the local share to be able to do these types of things so that when these projects came up we wouldn't ideally have to raise taxes any more than going to that city center reserve fund level that we have identified this is pretty close to that but you're right that that's kind of a high capacity number for the reserve fund  so in terms of additional projects that we would look at in the short term the potential for and indoor recreation space i think is a more immediate concern than maybe some of the other ones that are that align ahead listed on her sheet but they're all important priorities to the city and i think that's something that we we do need to keep in the back of our minds how we fund the general fund is different i think  i think we're doing exactly what we told the voters we were going to do when we said we're going to build the reserve fund so that we have the capital outlay of money that we can utilize for these big projects  you saying that capital funds are not going to have an impact on things that are unanticipated like unanticipated fifteen percent increase in health insurance which is totally out of control or the need for a new fire not so those are two separate buckets of jet the general fund which comprises that these hundred sixty thousand dollar number so if we increase that eight hundred eighty six thousand there's an additional twenty six thousand dollars of of money that would need to be found either through an increase in taxes or an increase in the grand list or a combination of those two things that the back to the eight sixty if we need if the council authorizes it to go to the eighty six then that's the number you would see but we will be prepared to come back to you with the eight sixty number and that's that's part of the increase that will be looking at for this year the general fund itself in terms of the capital budget the capital improvement budget has been cut over a number of years and has kind of got us to a place is critical in my mind in terms of some of the expenditures that have been deferred down the road a lot of towns have a dedicated to send on an on the budget  for capital funds we don't have that that's part of our budget number so our tax rate is already built in has has a capital expenditures built into that there's not an additional two cents that aside so i guess what i'm saying make it is is that i am totally where you are in terms of we need to do something different with the general fund we need to look at that operating in a different way but i think we i think we're doing exactly what we planned to do with the research fund and with the tip money it's just that we only have so much contact about the two packets they belong to the code of the taxpayer that's where i am that's where  some money aside every year to pay for a new city hall rather than a moment before yes so so as part of this whole building the city hall i think it's now been talking about the site work the land acquisition that's in place and then the city hall is on top of it so as a school on a square footage costs the cost when we apportion everything out it's quite a large cost but the added cost to build the building which i think we'll be talking about in the future is not as high but even still once you fold in the site work and the land costs to put that aside one of the things that a bond  that allows the residents that are using the building to pay for it every year so everyone's paying a little bit each year and you can spread that cost out over thirty years so one someone may be here for two years and they'll still pay that cost or they may be here for thirty and they get thirty years worth of benefit out of it it would be great to do a reserve fund but if you put in this amount every year it would take you thirty years and your net present value difference by the time you're ready to build you still may be needing to put in a lot so we would have to start now and say for a long time in silence thing and it's that's not a bad thing i did want year it goes up it does not actually have to go up for about ten years but at some point it will need to in order to feel meaning that you can ease in increase over time you just end up with a higher increase at the end of that time and that is then steady for quite a while the impact is less just under a tenth of a cen related to wow factor and sustainability elements of the proposed structure and so those cost savings and there are other ones that we have question marks on but these ones can show you so some of those are things that could be added later and some of them are things that would not so the sitting ability includes the structural strength for future expansion in talking with steve's team and john's team they feel that a lot of times when buildings are strained for future expansion that is either never used now i explain that this is one hundred year building and we're not going to buy another facility and that is this good in this area so but because codes change over time so depending on the time frame between when this building one item that can be added at a later date so it doesn't have to go in with the building and then the sunshade fins on the front i also think they look really call but but those are not essential to the functioning of the building floor and on the library the fireplaces there's three of them in the building the sidewalk snow melt that's in the front of the building and the rear of the building the generator most of our buildings do have generators and most of them have emergency functions both thing would not have an emergency function and emergency usually we would go not we but city management would go to public works and more or the police department police department or public works and then the type of elevator we have the nicer elevator right now there could be an equally functional elevator that would cost less money so those are  running four point four three running up to ten million ten million that we're going to finance over seventeen years minus the one or two years that amount is approximately how much in two thousand and twenty and how much development has occurred and the cumulative receive all that we would be booking is two hundred twenty thousand one of the secondary features of the reserve fund is that we can use that as a cushion against our receive all i have at the bottom seventy thousand dollars from the development that's already occurred traitor dukes and so on and then we estimate that there would be eighty four thousand almost eighty five thousand and we know that that's a no number in this number and then this is an estimated number and  this is based on the development of a property that's two properties one property that's under and that's i believe in sketch plan and one property i believe both of them are planned and will be one of them will we count them when they're occupied on april first and there's various degrees of development that they will reach before each april first so it takes a year or two for them to come on of twenty thousand sensing a strong to get through confidence that we will have about three hundred thousand dollars up to increment financing by twenty twenty one twenty twenty two based on what we know about current development trends in the district yes and you have impact to taxpayers and with the increase in the in the money that we just talked about then you're pretty confident we've got a pretty good cushion there this is a conservative estimate on the tip side of that the part that i did that seems to me more troubling right now is to bring it back up to the eight sixty because that will be a tax increase for next year because we're currently at seven fifty so that's one hundred ten thousand that will need to add back into the to that the two a tax increase or gross within the gram less that can absorb  to twenty two and a half so let's say we took a million out it's twenty one and a half and the original discussion was seventeen and a half twenty one and a half you know the original riginal discussion accident seventeen it's all things how much of a do you know let's just use eighteen then ninety three and a half million dollars how much of a difference we're talking three and a half million dollars between paris to morrow a cent is thirty bucks on and on and on three hundred thousand dollars home right snow oh my my only point there is if indeed you're conservative  that thing out level if you're conservative numbers are good and you've got to have a belief that you've got to have a belief in you know in a good future i mean otherwise to think negatively we can't run a city like that think looking to the future and looking for what sandy said investment in our future i guess pretty good i think we probably do have to take that number that original number and try and knock out eight hundred to a million bucks and and and then probably very few people are going to say gee you messed up the billing is still going to be pretty darn nice billing because a lot of that from some of the can go in later and some of it's nobody's going to notice because i wouldn't put it in the first place you know i i'm feeling better about the discussion that we're having right now than i was an hour ago because it is and that's why you know that's why we're we're having this conversation and  think in that based on what i've heard from from you folks is that just to come down to the to a library auditorium the infrastructure cost and the loss of parking is going to make that something that's going to be a lousy investment i don't know that as a fact but based on what you said and the and the needs that are going to stay there and some of the costs are going to increase i think that's going to be a losing proposition not to be a good deal but like to get that number well i know it would be nice to have that number so maybe you can figure that out direction as we're looking at this interest and i'm just saying there was this was one way that potentially alleviate that pressure on the school portion of our taxes so it's not just  raised that's really good for i want to hear on wednesday with the school board how much they want to space that's that that's an important thing to hear if that's a question to them that's very clear and that sure they've had enough time to think about it but they will have some thoughts and it's just from a discussion about a parking garage or not a parking garage an elevated parking garage their feeling about a north facing balcony i would be very curious to hear to it makes perfect sense to have city hall in city center and having all of this together makes perfect sense but there is that number good total number that you know i don't know you probably have a better you know put a target in all sorts of options and he talked about that very thing that he would put the library you know he would build it it would be part of the deal no one else has come forward with that idea i don't but i don't think it's a change the square foot cost of the of the expectation of the library and senior center if we leased we wouldn't be able to use tip money to pay a lease when we asked the question about whether or not we could afford capital lease and i don't know that we have that question that answered because so i have half of the answer which means i don't have it from the tax department yet but i have it on the other departments and the answer is yes but i think that you would concern is still that the but jason property if they're not happy with their access to their underground garage my understanding from that meeting with the mckenzie is s p realties they still own this property in that they could negate this purchase and sale agreement if they feel harmed by the way out of this so i cathedral square about whether or not development next board door will affect the value of their property and i think that it would be a very difficult case to make that this is going to negatively affect the value of the property but maybe that's executive so you know we don't want to go in there and so i think you know we give them we can work this out with them and have been talking to them about how to make this work for everybody i can't find document right now i just wanted to phrase that in two thousand and sixteen we had during that and probably refined every budget would be refined we can look at additional costs and obviously stay where it is but i don't i don't feel that's the direction that you you want to go in and my understanding for wednesday unless you guys have a good sense of where we're going that we're going to see what type of information we can give you regarding the  regarding removing city hall and possibly more than city hall from the site and what fits in and what that might look like and otherwise to just continue this  is that the consensus i mean i certainly get the sense that you have a list of between eight hundred thousand and a million dollars worth of refined ments are cuts that you are are not easy to do when you could do them and you have a price tag approximately and i'm sensing that we definitely want to look at those is the council interested in having them go through the do that to your fair what's your deadline to get this on the because it was added and it is really cool because i don't remember library discussions with we want to build a library and we wanted great auditorium with a library and i may be wrong  we should understand all the concerns about cost and cost overruns and taxation and all the rest with but this building is the aspiration of self willing to resist this is their dream and we should change that and forget about that it has a big  pose the up opportunities in the future if the senior center fully built one or have another record center where the seniors could move to that space could revert to the because they had to skinny down their expectations so i think i agree with you didn't know how to handle both or admit it's you know i'm probably never going to go to meals there and stuff but i might go to some classes i don't know but it isn't the senior center spaces that vision is probably not the senior center space or on the twenty  think the auditorium is an important piece of library stakes if we're able to keep to that because the programming that we're in high school and even in the current library we're doing programming outside of the law to ha easy ones which described initially but in that second bunch of my ears perked up when i heard no skylight i mean i don't know if that's but then that's the pieces that bring that light into the mill building i'm going to be think there's a couple different types of systems they they range from sixty five hundred dollars to seventy five hundred dollars per year to operate with with the system that's shown which is about the largest system that we would have which  think that having the cooling that's worth a lot to the south side of that building so i don't give a future expansion as well i mean i think you made a great case that rarely do you ever really expand that way so i mean that was something i thought originally was important but as i understand the cost of the foundation without bolstering it with another floor or two that's probably kind of silly hang on to in my opinion well no it's also there's other land that we will have available if we need eight thousand square feet for something we can find space to do it someday down the road ten or well for the fins on the outside are going to function in a different way than than they would on the inside the ones on the outside are meant to block the summer sun but to allow the winter sun into the building  would have to pass by that someone would notice them or they would be screened coming in coming to city hall they are screened and it's such a distance from the front door in the library that and i would recommend that the school board or you have a conversation with him because he was very articulate on the subject the border looked to be sticking to the school where if you don't if you don't put a terrorist on the north it isn't just empty space just thinking of saleability to people who don't pay a lot of attention and it's all about my pay more taxes or about not paying more taxes if i am on more than against an a from not it's ok can you word that such that this with any further discussion or thoughts that you want to share tonight ok well thank you very much i think this goes really helpful i appreciate the comments and thoughts from the public do you want to so for wednesday night the meeting is warm for five thirty the dedication of the park is that for we will have pizza here probably for you in the interim although after the discussion tonight it may just be cheese pizza the school board chair or the superintendent or whatever that the conversation isn't really going to be are we going to sign this thing or rather we need we would like to understand how certain they might be about eventually wanting this building because because we're it's important piece for me it is a piece in terms of funding th thing with it and whether even if we need the season yeah yeah would that be possibly be just in the chair where you want to hold or because see there they have thoughts i mean they certainly had a dollar figure in their last year's budget that they took out of war renting some space and member the conversation  for for programming in the middle school i mean you're sort of in four different places so they certainly have talked about it but they haven't gotten to the point where they're done and they have to so they would not be coming for the purpose of signing the agreement they would be coming for the purpose of having a discussion about their needs relevant to this building in the context of the broader value proposition for the board for the for the public ok will all of called the first thing and see if we can get an answer on seems like it would be a good conversation for the whole school board because i mean you know i think the list that speaks for everyone particularly if they haven't discussed  son so they have a meeting after that meeting ok so right