that the next argument is wireless media innovations versus america terminals l l c this is appeal number fifteen dash sixteen thirty four created a framework for why it has worked for sixteen years as of this month that includes a clear and convincing burden of proof and recognizing the importance of she underlying factual inquiries into the prior art and difference differences from the patent claims  based on the pleadings with no submission and consideration of any factual evidence at all using only the disclosures of the specification as the evidence against the claims and refusing to apply the clear and convincing evidence burden of proof so did the district court  and there are it's a system claim to a container monitoring system this is a ninety one of course column nine and it consists of four absolutely concrete elements in combination it is a system that includes a receiving area a container entry point a switching vehicle and means for recording information so there's nothing abstract about that this couldn't be more concrete of a combination of physical elements some work together alice claim that components or at least some of the clues said very specific components right well alice takes us into an area where you're talking about financial transactions but they're implemented on a computer and they also talk about in the case law you know what we call the form of our claims where something is put into a a medium because you know to execute an algorithm for example in the financial area on a computer it has to be put into a computer code it has to be run on a computer which is why the watch takes us into the idea of a general purpose computer so we add that to what is otherwise a method or process because you know unless you're actually physically sitting with a paper and pencil to do it a financial transaction you have to do on a computer so what takes it into account and we have this whole added aspect of a general purpose computer but that is nothing like this claim this is a container system that includes like i said a receiving area container if you point a switch in a vehicle which is a giant vehicle that moves containers that are carried on ships and rail cars and trucks you have other claims that are directed more to the monitoring of various actions and then and then recording it and then generating reports are absolutely just showing your question raised a very important point which is our reply brief they have tried to characterize all of our claims with one table on tapes you know ten eleven of their brief without discussing any of these different claims they summarize them in their own self serving attorney one this particular claim i guess goes beyond that in the sense that it's actually calling for the actions to take place and then monitoring those actions and and recording data i'm sure you're saying cla sure but then but then this claim claim one is different in the sense that now it's actually describing the playing field the playing arena where the events take place the physical right then the final step is or limitation is means for recording information about what the activities are in that are going to happen in the arena that's so i guess what i was wondering is i mean if i go to a baseball game and i'm in the audience and i have you know a little chart with me and i'm you know monitoring the actions on the baseball field than on recording every strike and ball  way you started your question is that there are different aspects of these claims it is just prices went up by nine is unethical and ok so we agree that that's an abstract idea what i'd basically describe i think monitoring is something monitoring something is an abstraction i gave so what if run scored it is that an abstract idea to i think you're out of the question goes to what you're claiming if i claim a scrapbook and a pencil and a television set for remote monitoring a baseball game that's taking place in a stadium maybe i can claim the stadium imam's extrapolating that's a physical system that involves you know the ability not that the action the ability to monitor a baseball game if i have a method claim that says monitoring a baseball claim by watching or monitoring a baseball game by watching the game and recording the score there's a point where it crosses over into an abstract idea but that's the whole point about our claim one of the seventy nine pattern by the way also claim one of the two nine one fashion which is all physical means force function elements in you know continuing our point that we've made in our briefs that these claims are distinct in the seventy nine patent claim three adds communication like not an act of communicating or monitoring but a communication link and then you go to claim eight in the seventy nine pattern and it makes that a mobile telephone unifications like which again is a physical thing and this is neat to me five you know we're not talking about sitting here and twenty fifteen when the new jersey court made its decision we're supposed to be in one thousand nine hundred five saying hey you know we've got these giant switching vehicles in a gate in a yard and we're adding a mobile telecommunications link to the switching going but if under alice we we conclude that there is some kind of abstract idea here and we can quibble about what's the right precise articulation one relation but then according to thomas we're now have to go on the hunt for the inventive concept and are you i didn't quite see you make the case in the briefing that yes the communications link independent claim x y z is an inventive concept or implementing in plain three and the point is what's innovative and what's not in this is that combination and we get to the district court the district court gets bogged down in in thinking that they're applying step two of our start saying something is conventional today it's going back and looking at the combination of these elements of a receiving area between or entry point and those things mean you know for example the physical area with the gates and entry points are  think that it's not quite the same thing because what the whole specular talks about is real time monitoring and being able to track things remotely in real time and you cannot do that i mean you don't even have carrier pigeons fast enough that i can write it down oh he's got he's got a computer next to him he enters the number that he just wrote on his path which is part so that is a computer it's part of a combination it's not just a general purpose computer it's not putting an algorithm like alice or bilski or something else on a general purpose computer it's a computer that's part of a combination that serves an overall purpose so it's more than that but so to go one step back from that i then will just for the record say that claim nine even if you're correct on that look at the seventy nine patent column five it describes the types of data input devices conventional that input devices that can be used and about line eighteen it says that one claim of data highlights that what the seventy nine of the two nine one patent described really are an abstract idea the abstract idea of monitoring and recording and reporting on the locations of these containers in the yard and all of that the claims do and most is layer on top of that a general purpose computer and conventional data gathering device for example a person typing into a terminal another example in that column if you look at just claim one of the seven and nine the abstract idea would be accumulating to take it right from the preamble accumulating and storing information on shipping container so it would be again the first parts of monitoring and recording the location of shipment shipping containers within the recorders so what the patent describes quarrying would be as i pointed to earlier at column five j eighty nine beginning at about line eighteen you've got the container management monitoring control system and then you could have some conventional optical or at scanners and so that was would be the ways that you would record the information like oh sorry we don't mention the abstract ideas  cumulating and storing information yes sure and that's our data into further down a column five beginning about line forty five a conventional management information system or a database so then what are you saying that claim one the way it's structured in terms of having all of these components and actions taking place they're all kind of like  that you know you're in ministering some kind of drug to a patient and then the drug metabolizing in the person's bloodstream and then you measure the metabolite in the bloodstream so that you can appreciate whether that metabolite level is too high or too low and then back to that final step was deemed to be a lot of nature and all those other steps leading up to it were ultimately deemed to be insignificant i was that kind of similar i'm just thinking out loud here and this claim that i went looking at how is the structure  chad i also think your baseball analogy earlier is a good one my wife keeps score at every baseball game we go to subject were fond of that one it would be like claiming the baseball field and the players on the field the manager in the dugout  which you need in order to score and understand a baseball game when you're really claiming a method or a system for scoring the baseball game of the abstract idea is recording that actions in the baseball game all those other elements that are necessary in order for the abstract idea to be done i guess is what you're saying there what the abstract idea is applied to essentially you  unexpected i think it's possible that that would work that's not what we have in the w in my case if there was some way to want want what mr shaw wants and saying is having this enormous switching recording reporting and recording on the location of the container is something else it's either a human being that's watching some a human being in the switching vehicle with a radio or a invention is tracking them within the container  yard there's also there's no specialized on conventional hardware here the again the switching vehicles are part of the container yard just like the baseball that is part of the baseball  and there's no specialized software described there's really no software at all described aside from mentioning conventional management information systems or databases because of that from our perspective the patent fails both prongs of the alice test we had the abstract idea monitoring recording and reporting on the container location and that can't be overcome with a conventional data gathering devices is every leader gathering system that uses conventional data gathering devices in eligible under section one hundred one not necessarily not if it's tied to something that's not an abstract idea the issue is just that the conventional data gathering element right hand out radio or conventional optical scanner layered on top of a and abstract idea isn't enough what you're saying i guess is that if you have a your invention is a system of gathering information and recording it and i yes thank you for that distinction the specificity is laying out exactly what the conventional components are including by manufacturer name and model number there is no specificity as to something new that would provide the inventive concept beyond the conventional devices if routers don't have other questions i have covered our ports thank you that i went off the property association the inventor received an award and so he talked about it and he patented a new thing where you had a different field size in the forwards and different end zones and different widths of course and that's kind of comparable to this in terms of you have this large area and you have these aspects to any of these physical components now the fact that you would have a method for scoring the game or rules of the game might also be part of that invention but the way the patent system works those can be separately patented under different types of claims system claims method claims and there are noncontiguous in the sense that just because we can point to clean as you have just price and doesn't mean that that works backwards to invalidate claim one which covers th information ok and the fact that you used a conventional computer a scanner which the patentee admitted before the school or on the record in oral argument was conventional together not just a generic computer but that it ad scanning ability that's why that was invalid under one this is a different case with as we said the priest we certainly don't admit this is all conventional equipment but more importantly to conclude on the obviousness point this is a combination