diane couch and the chairman of the committee and before we get started let's have everybody turn off their cell phones put them inside that mode so that the meeting is not interrupted by all everybody's fabulous ring tones morning she's busy getting everything put together from the hon a district office we have  we have two items on our agenda p c thirty seven put into increasing image tori of affordable housing basically a rule seven b item and then p c three twenty two regulating the construction of sea walls we're going to start with testimony today for individuals testifying in the chamber please sign up in the back if you are testifying from remote testimony site please sign up with the district office testimony will be limited to the two i items i talked about today that are green light for three minutes and they will turn yellow means you have one minute to conclude and when it turns red there will be the we'd like you to conclude your comments by then members without by the way with when testify your name in any organization you may be representing members without any objection will open public testimony ok public testimony is open let's go with the ana district office you have anybody there waiting to ok and then think ok thank you ladies if you have somebody coming to testify before we get to the end of our testifiers please let the staff know kay otherwise we won't come back to you right members we have so far two people signed up to testify we have cassandra followed by kelly king supply of affordable housing alternatives for low and moderate income households and maui county we support all affordable housing and we strongly encourage affordable housing in perpetuity it's become evident that the traditional customary solutions have fallen far short of delivering the amount of affordable housing so desperately needed by our maui families we applaud the willingness of the department of planning the council members and the three person temporary investigative group or th e to think outside the box and explore potential nontraditional methods to increase the inventory of a fail all affordable housing in maui county  opportunity for you to actively participate in the business community stakeholder meeting the evening of aug tenth we eagerly anticipate the opportunity to review the results of the t i g s hard work and o'malley believes that public funds used to subsidize affordable housing are an investment in the community and should remain in our community making the public's investment a permanent part of the pricing of affordable homes generation after generation this is the most efficient and effective way to overcome the chronic shortage of a fordable homes we face in maui county today we strongly believe that affordable housing in perpetuity can be a vital part of our housing strategy we look forward to continuing opportunities to part with the county of maui to provide affordable houses in perpetuity for deserving income a qualified families earning less than one hundred twenty percent members couple of things are not as prepared as i usually like to be because i decided to testify i've been meeting with folks around the community who are doing it for housing projects and one of my biggest concerns and it's a lot of it's based on the meeting last night that some of you were at with the governor and the heads of department agriculture department health department transportation concerns that kept coming up over and over again with the various subjects or about community involve collaboration last week i met with mike atherton topical plantation and for two hours discussed his affordable housing project which i wholeheartedly support and i want to point i want to make today is  that it's very important to collaborate with the community this was ten years of working within the community making sure that if it into the maui island plan and then he showed me his two documents that were bound that were this high that were the e s and i said i hope you're not going to give that to me and expect me to read that tonight but you know they didn't they didn't fight against the community they worked with the community this is what we need to have valuable fordable housing projects he has also got over ten thousand acres of ag land that he's going to keep in and so you know the most you know from what i can see is a beautiful project i just wanted to save for this for this subject affordable housing for all development that we need to have more involvement with the community when these projects are being developed so they don't you know they're not developed in someone's office and you come into a community you know this is what we're going to do in your community and in the community rights is up and says that doesn't fit with our community and there's a lot of that been going on the other thing i wanted to talk about and i want to think council member cochran for proposing at is i think we need to really look i was disappointed that it didn't pass but i was told it didn't pass having an environmentalists a requirement  environmentalist and a cultural practitioner on the plane commission because that's when you start doing things like that then you bring more the community into those discussions right now the community feels very disengaged from a lot of different activities last night officials who are who are the ones they usually the developers get to talk to is very important so thank you for your time and i'm here too i'm very excited about listening to the report from the ticket as well on this issue so i talk to some people on that committee who are very excited about presenting their findings thank you very much thank you any questions for the testifier seeing none think you think i'd like to recognize counsel to your weight good morning seriously look at the tiny home revolution container ows ing want to get examples the whole way he project on quire where they're building homes container homes sixty thousand dollars fully renewable community gardens and i myself have lived in four hundred square foot house the last twenty years as a studio with a lot of my own food i'm happy you don't need a huge house so i think there's e in autumn now and many many other people and it's an example of how often or people are on different sides of a topic came together and it was really a team out for so i was happy to see that representatives from maui at all levels making things happen and of course a shout out to the chair the new the new director of d o t who is willing to to think of new ideas think outside the box and really protect our  coastlines are still not out of the hole yet we we've got the mile marker fourteen seawall that's a twenty million dollars seawall that we hope these new negotiations will help resolve and protect that extremely important clo coastline and i understand the council doesn't oversee necessarily these projects it's more of a planning commission and i think i remember seeing the commissioner had donnie a while back making a comment to d o t actually praising them for the u k mommy seawall saying would you know thanks for doing a slanted or that there it was not a slanted or event and in most of you probably know that was a total disaster so i think the planning commission does need to be educated a little more about the issues and hopefully this eight miles of coastline from polly to put them on a can be a reality i think we're very close to making that happen we need to protect the coastline and the public it be a great legacy for the for maui the the community of maui and of course for the future generations so i hope we work hard all together as we we seem to be doing now and make that happen so i commend everybody for their efforts and in providing a solution thank you thank you mr diego's members any questions to the testifier see none thank you next up is kind aloha council members i am kind of cheeky i'm here to ask the council to request that the governor the state department of transportation and maui county to stop using emergency proclamations to put up se chronically eroding coastlines this allows them to ignore normal environmental review and proper permit in and to fast track a project that the public does not clearly want the state and private sectors should not be allowed to bypass all of our shoreline regulations including public disclosure by declaring an emergency for a chronically predictable event please pass a resolution asking the governor to stop this unfair practice this is an insult to all of us we shouldn't have to stand in front of a construction site to guard our shorelines every day beach management plan for maui here are some answers to preserving our beaches and shoreline yes it's very well used we as taxpayers paid for the study and it's way past overdue for implementation this is the second edition of the beach management plan with updated research by leaders and beach management please adopt this plan as county policy and begin implementation of the various recommendations i quote beach nourishment is the only management tool that serves the dual purpose of protecting coastal lands and preserving the beach unquote it's expensive i understand but so are repeated short term measures that are road our beaches imagine how much beach nourishment and shoreline restoration could have been bought with the over sixty million dollars being spent on illegal poco just recently the maui planning commission approved against the recommendation of the maui planning department of four hundred foot long privately built seawall that's built sixty five percent on our public beach a public resource for private property protection this is not been legal for almost twenty years our economic engine we all understand as tourism visitors come here for beautiful beaches and amazing this does not sea walls and dead reefs we can completely do this with your political will and protect this public trust resource please read the plan members any questions that testify or seeing none thank you thank you college council members albert pres mowing tomorrow foundation well if that was an inspiring testimony i wish i'd written that one i support everything that guy said the beach management plan all of that i think there have been a lot of shoreline variances issued to the planning commission has rules that pretty much prohibit seawalls but variances and so that's the way that they're getting through i would like to recommend that the county of maui support the d o t in its request for funding of the one off the lani highway this coming legislative session that was a specific request that we support it from the director of transportation and that would facilitate the implementation of that poly to put them on a parkway plan i'm not clear on whether that plan has been adopted by the council  but if not i think it should be updated in adopted also people who are members of the maui metropolitan planning organization should similarly how decayed for federal funding to realign the highway and should oppose any that we really need to question the information is presented in all applications and not just trust that everything in there is correct whether by you know it's probably not by intent but maybe just by  not really knowing the facts there was one thing that really stuck out for me they did an assessment offshore and they said that there was three percent coral cover off of the project one of our community members went out there  and measured it and said it was more like eighty percent so this is the type of information that should be verified before were just approving projects like this the other thing that really stuck out for me  personally i couldn't understand why just restriking the road wouldn't work so i went out there and middle of the night and measured the road and it turns out that there was plenty of room and i don't know how that happened in the planning process for the project but that was the basis of the solution so we need to question the facts that are presented to us i really want to thank director of the o t ford future economy for being willing to listen even though we had filed a lawsuit and if he hadn't been willing to do that i went to talk to him after the m p o meeting one day and if he hadn't been willing to do that we wouldn't have been able to reach a resolution certainly not as quickly and final thought i'd like to leave you with is that this type of problem is going to be happening more frequently as we have sea level rise and also not only along the coast but  with climate change the prediction is that will have bigger storms have been predicted in the past and so it's also along our rivers and streams as happened recently with  unfortunately may not be as rare an event as it has been in the us so we need to adapt both along the coast lines and on our shorelines sorry along our rivers and streams thank you very council members thank you for putting these issues on the agenda i am wanting to testify on both matters and as far as a affordable housing is concerned i think a lot of the issue is that the affordable housing is not staying in the  have people buying it at the affordable prices and statewide this is becoming an issue where they're flipping it selling for market price and then and then we're out those affordable homes in perpetuity so i think that the county can kind of set a new standard and i would encourage the county to maybe look at mandating all affordable homes be put into a community land trust it works very well across the u s and i think that that something that we can kind of issue to me because growing up on in west my we've seen beautiful white sand beach is destroyed literally they are concrete walls now and they're causing havoc on down shore and we know i my hollow all the support we got from the county and as you know ultimately it ended up well but the fight it's not over and mile marker fourteen as you know is home to our mother reef  it's going to cost our taxpayers twenty three million dollars and i believe that that twenty three million dollars should go towards realigning that highway in back of the village and so you know when we look at collaboration we look at coalition building we look at all of this just like this issue really brought us together because we all know that that's the right thing to do i believe the mayor believes so the state d o t director and and in conversations with last night with the d o t and the governor is listening to the community and being more engaged and i think moving forward i would encourage the county council to kind of come together and let the state  priority i also wanted to bring up one other thing in response to the erosion response and i wanted to throw this idea out to the county during the flood i had camped out there during the flood and i let me tell you there was mud coming from everywhere and still to today it's still money there is still dirt on the shoreline it's pretty sad it's been three weeks and you know that stroking out there reef sediment and soil you wrote in is a big issue and so would like to propose the county take measures to maybe doing a course to replenish man or restoration projects with native plant species to kind of help keep that soil in talk and maybe this could be like a private public partnership with non profits if the county is willing but i think that's a great idea to kind of help mitigate a lot of the soil that's going into our ocean we've got to do something we've got to we've got to do something and if i can help in any way i like to be a part of that so person has signed up to testify in so far as the last person and that's long ago it seems to me i worked with then council member charmaine to virus during a beach restoration there was a conference here on maui where we went to all the hot spots around mt we spoke with  replenishment experts the army corps of engineers and it was a very detailed not only study but look what we needed to do going into the future because climate change is a very real thing for all island nations it is something that is very concerning of course for those that live near the shorelines and the issue of sea walls the sea walls aren't good i mean this is what came out of the conference no amount of shoreline armoring will save that coastline for the future it will save it on a temporary basis it will save it for that particular piece of property but the other properties on either side of it and then further down the coast are also affected by it  what i want to mention here is that when looking at this agenda and looking at these items what was very concerning especially for me because i'm very detail oriented and i like to go through all the documents that will be spoken about in any particular meeting these are not available to view on the website they are not in the archives they are not on the planning committee site there they are nowhere to be viewed and so it is very difficult to come here and speak to any of these items with any kind of background history or anything like that without having these items available and i would like to suggest just as the agenda is put on as a hyperlink it won't be so hard to also hyperlink these items for this specific meeting for any specific meaning so that people can be a little bit more informed than having to go down to the offices before coming up to this meeting and sorry about that aside but that being said it does pertain to this seawall issue because it is not just for specific properties we're not talking about just moving our shoreline moving our roadways from our shorelines it is an all inclusive thing and though there may be the issue of state roadways versus county road plays these are our roadways and so whether or not there are jurisdiction or not we must have a say in them and we must impress upon the state that that this is a very real concern and it won't go away we know that as tourism is on the rise we have a larger airport facility being constructed for rental cars it is obvious that we anticipate more people coming on to molly and with that being said we have to look at mitigation for our areas that's not a short term solution but a long term solution looking towards the future for our ion and for our people o members any questions com every item on every agenda is there i know you don't know that because it's part of our the new council system the maui county website is a is an administration website so things take a while to get to their hours  star dot com ok ok thank you all right anybody else want to testify ok and i haven't gotten any response i mean any feedback from the district offices so members without ok members we have two items on the agenda the first is listed as p c thirty seven for into an opinion was asked for from staff as to how we can handle this and it was first thought that we're just going to pass out the report and then that's it we can't talk about it or anything we have sensed talk with oh i p and we know we can have c the members cannot ask questions about or are deliberate they can ask clarifying questions about the report and that's it so without objection i think this is going to take a little longer than i expected it to i would like to put that at the end go through the seawall presentation and whatever we have there because that's what it looks like most of the folks are here for and then come back to that bigger part if there's any objection that ok so members will move p c thirty seven to to the the end of the agenda so now we're on p c twenty two regulating the construction of sea walls remembers this miscellaneous communication was referred to by the council to the committee last year we last took up the item on june sixteenth twenty sixteen when we had a very informative presentation from the department of planning as you're aware the situation with the she erosion and the need to find alternatives to sea walls and other protection members measures that hard n the shoreline has become more acute therefore i have asked mr owens to speak with us further about the subject she didn't quite finish last time we talked she said there was a whole lot more that we could talk about so  i know you've seen her before but for the public spend it i'll do a brief introduction for terror owens is a coastal process and hazard specialists with the university of hawaii see grant college program and works with the planning department she's not an employee of the planning part was actually employee of u h i believe and she works with the department her role is to bring science to planning and permitting by providing technical guidance consultation site visits and public outreach with respect to coastal hazards terror also interfaces with the state and federal agencies on collaborative projects pertaining to the climate shoreline change and coastal hazard  degree in marine science from coastal carolina university and a master of science degree in coastal geology from the university of hawaii with that let me introduced reintroduced her o thank you for the introduction chair and good morning council members thanks for having me back i think as chair mentioned i was here on june sixteenth i mean a shade of discussion on this  item so today is an opportunity to just dive a little bit deeper into the issue if you can bear with me i'll repeat myself for the first five or six lies just for the record to kind of stablish the basics and then we'll go beyond that and get a little bit deeper into some certain cases so repeating myself and most of you guys are aware of this erosion is an issue all over the island eighty five percent of our shorelines on maui are roading over the long term and maoris beaches are actually experiencing the highest rates of  osion for the island so directly compared to co i and a while who we also have the highest percentage of beach loss compared to those islands it's related to sea level rise and also armoring in most cases our beach loss directly correlated to shoreline armoring that's happened in the past there's been lots of news in just the last couple of years so i just demonstrate that you know this is a pervasive issue we're dealing with on a daily basis in the planning department more recent news in june fifth you'll remember we started having some severe erosion impacts in west rally in the kahana area which i'll talk about in more detail today and then of course the recent  so most of you are aware of these kinds of issues around the island so just really briefly what are the causes of erosion and then what are our responses and we'll get into more detail about the responses ok erosion is part related to a natural process so sea levels are rising this is related to climate change sea levels are rising and as sea levels rise our shorelines are forced to retreat landward and the result of that is our beaches narrow and eventually sometimes become lost in certain cases this is the process of chronic erosion long term on top of that of course we have our seasonal wave conditions and sometimes storms that come and move sand often on beaches so sand is always moving around beaches are very dynamic that's their natural function san moves up and down beaches and news on and off shore of those beaches beaches are the buffer between the ocean and whatever land development is behind it so that's referred to as episodic erosion we lose beaches temporarily and a lot of times they recover in response to these events and then the third impact or cause of erosion are the human things that we do some examples of that are sand mining that was done for many years on some of our coastlines removing sand from the system and then the other prevalent example is shoreline armoring so i think we're here today because we all know that shoreline armoring has consequences we lose beach in most cases we lose shoreline access and we have long lasting cumulative impacts to two neighboring properties so then the question the follow on question is what do we do and that's i think what we're really here to to to discuss and so i was presenting this sort of oh it won't work for that screen sorry maybe there's a point around here well the top of the lists one end of the spectrum is literally do nothing that would be allowing nature to take its course and have buildings fall into the ocean  other extreme down at the bottom of the list is armoring which that's you know building concrete sea walls or rock or that meant to hold the line so to speak which is generally good for protecting the land behind it in the development but  as a consequence losing the beaches and the natural shoreline environment out front so then it's this this solutions in between where generally we we we would like to focus our  energy so managed retreat an example of manager retreat as is the use of shoreline setbacks we're doing that here in maui county i think folks would argue that our current erosion base setbacks which were established in two thousand and three have been pretty successful for new development you could also argue that they have deficiencies those setbacks and should be updated in the planning department is working on that but it doesn't really help us with all that older existing development which is which is where we're really running to the into the issues where where you roget and that built environment are clashing so what else can we do well there are temporary solutions like sometimes sand pushing  one that can can help with and that you know an episodic erosion of event things like putting sandbags in place can help protect development for a short period of time although that can also have lasting consequences adaptation you know maybe elevating or reconfiguring buildings to kind of increase that buffer between the ocean and the buildings is another way of doing things and i think where we're going to focus discussion today is on beach nourishment and doing restoration as sort of the more environmentally friendly alternative to you know it's one of the few engineering tools we have that can both protect the built environment and the natural environment ok so one of the questions that we've gotten a lot of lately is you know how many seewald have been built in recent history most armoring was done in the sixty's in the seventies and into the eighty's and historically in hawaii that's how we responded to  sion to protect development by about the ninety's i would say that using that strategy slow down i would speculate that's because we started to collectively realize that there were consequences of that  and there really haven't been very many new seawalls i can't say this for sure but within the ninety's and the two thousand i can't think of very many examples and till about the last seven six to ten years and a lot of the time that i've been here so of the projects that i know since two thousand and ten we've most recently had the whole army condominiums project approved but with very strict mitigate of conditions meant that was just temporarily deferred was approved in two thousand and eleven so my sol for the planning department we could answer any questions you have about any one of these individual projects at any time but i think where we're going to focus the discussion today is on the option of beach restoration as an alternative to armory and why would we even want to do that so two main points beaches are valuable to the economy of course everybody knows that that's a mainstay of our tourist economy and these are not valued figures but it kind of just goes to show you how you can get a lot of bang for your buck buck by restoring beaches ok so this shows on the left that in the united states beaches are the leading tourist destination so it's comparing it to other leading tourist destinations like state parks or national parks theme parks  etc and on the right hand side it shows how beach nourishment is a good return on investment so this is looking nationwide at beach restoration projects so the bottom bar there is the annual taxes from beach tourists and the top little skinny gray bars squared off in red it shows you the ten years of beach nourishment cost nationwide so a major distinction in terms of magnitudes there but of course what's also very important in addition to the economy is the ecosystem services of beaches so i already mentioned the beaches that buffer between development and the ocean and if that buffer is healthy then usually we don't have many problems when the beach begins to slowly erode away and become degraded then we start to have this clash between waves and buildings and roads so beaches and dunes provide hazard mitigation as well as of course habitat for turtles seals shorebirds plants and more ok so takeaways so far the story is we have existing developments throughout it that's threatened by chronic and has been the primary spot response historically to protect threatened development leading to beach loss beach restoration is one of the only tools that we have that can protect both environments the built and the natural environment and so in some cases where it's appropriate and you have to define appropriate for sure the response can shift to beach restoration as an alternative to armoring if everybody in the room were to agree that we want to avoid armoring as much as possible then we have to find alternatives to that essentially so i'm going to focus now on one case that we're dealing with and i'll focus on that case for a couple of reasons one  planning department is actively problem solving this case right now and i know some of you folks probably are aware of it to a degree and the other reason is because this is really an example of what we're dealing with on the island this isn't the only site but there are others and there's more to come i was able to host barbara boxer out here at bay about a year ago senator u s senator barbara boxer and she referred to this situation as the canary in the coal mine from maui the beach shell goes from kahana stream at the north down to park at the south so all the buildings in between and the shoreline area there are nine condos and one private residence along that stretch of shoreline the situation here is that we have older existing condos that were built close of the ocean and are now imminently threatened by erosion and these are ten twelve story buildings the long term erosion rate is about point seven feet per year so that has led to narrowed beaches and because the beaches are are so narrowed at this point well and in addition to that armoring there are two or three properties within the speech cell that are already armored so they're contributing to a degree too and because our beach is now narrowing chronically over time we're getting to the point where any episodic event like our winter high waves are damaging and becoming damaging to buildings because there is no longer that natural buffer and the formerly wide sandy beach that was once there had protected the condos for all those years from highway vivants so this is a look back in history this is gonna bay in one nine hundred forty nine so again you can see kind of stream up there labeled where a stearns is currently down at the bottom back in one nine hundred forty nine you can see and i swear i sandy beach from one one end to the other by about one nine hundred seventy five you can start to see the development of the condos there very close already to the ocean so right there in the center we've got a valley lonnie and the outrigger i think is next to that and then by nine hundred ninety seven we now have a situation where you can no longer transit from one end of the shoreline to the other because the has narrowed and the the two condos that were armored are are without beach at that point and then fast forward to today this was last september you i think you've seen these photos before this is looking out the shoreline right in front of the royal kahana valley isle condominiums this was two thousand and fifteen summer this was april of two thousand sixteen this year we had we had to the extreme erosion season extreme wave season that led to erosion particularly in west maui and you can see that the buildings are now imminently threatened this hole in front of holo lonny condos just on the north side of the other two in may protected by sandbags this is valley isle condos this corner of the building we're looking at here is five feet from the waves and this is june just after these sandbags were installed artist's rendering of what was proposed there it's a hybrid so you all slasher about him and one thing i would like to point about about this image is this is an artist's rendering again more than likely once the structure is built there there won't continue to be beach existing out front and actually already today we're seeing it we're seeing that even in the good summer recovery time for this beach there is no longer sand accumulating at that property in front of the sandbags this project was approved but again with mitigate of conditions to work with the other condominiums to do a beach restoration project and then potentially remove the armory and that leads us to where we are today and how the council has been involved as well you may remember that last year for f y sixteen we came and asked for some funding to to have a study done to look at the viability of beach restoration for this beach sell on a bay so we were we were given partial funding for that project with the provision that the proviso that we would get the community to contribute as well and we were successful at that and so we worked to do an r f p we got a consultant to do a one year study to evaluate beach the beach nourishment solution which involved a looking for sand if there was no sand offshore available for us to restore the beach then that option would not be available to us so that was the first criteria and then look at alternative beach configurations so that was accomplished we now have the results of that study the first thing th consultant did was go out there with all kinds of geophysical instruments and look for sand so these lines on this map here are showing you where they took the boat with sidescan sonar and some bottom profilers and and did a really detailed study looking for sand and what we found was a lot of it beautiful beach quality sand out there four hundred five thousand cubic yards to be precise which is something like four or more times what we would actually need of that study the consultant just did some very early preliminary designs what what would be some possible configurations if we did restore the speech and one of the things they have they've sa is that more than likely a sand only solution would not be successful like a hunted bay because of the shape of the the shoreline and the exposure of the waves there both in the winter and summer so they're suggesting that we're going to also need  rock growing structures like the ones depicted here although we have to look at final links and spacing and siting and all kinds of other stuff before this would ever be considered a final design but the idea is we could have maybe a and been deposited in their shore area or area and recycling it back up onto the shoreline to restart the beach that serves as the buffer between the ocean and the  removed the front row homes and then restored the beach with one hundred thousand cubic yards of sand and nine rock he had grown so that's what this the beach there looks like today just as an example so what now where are we now it's complicated at the shoreline there's a lot of folks involved in a lot of different jurisdictions this is just this is looking at south maui but just to kind of show you obviously there's the private development and the county  regulates that development through the special management area and the shoreline rules the jurisdictional boundary between county and state is the shoreline wherever is the high wash of waves so that's the red line there so c word of that red stiction and that becomes public land it's conservation district land once you get down lower on the beach pro profile to mean higher high water the blue line then you're getting into other state agencies and federal jurisdiction as well so everyone federal state county private has a role in managing the shoreline and probably has you know stewardship obligations as well what we're what we're working on now is partnership building we have to continue planning designing permitting and hopefully eventually implementing the regional be trust ration project if at the end of the day that's what the community would like to do there is a group that is organizing now referring to themselves as the qana bay restoration foundation this is mostly a group of owners within all of the nine condominiums and they're trying to help with decisions outreach and project funding i think we've had twelve or more community meetings out at the site the next major step as an e a or an e i us for the beach restoration project and this would include other studies that are needed like benthic habitat studies just as an example looking at alternatives all the alternatives and engineering drawings the cost of that is going to be approximately six hundred thousand dollars there are two possible implementation pass at this point we are working with the army corps of engineers if some of you council members may remember we had milton yoshi moto come here from the army corps of engineers and talk about their continuing authorities program and how the community and the county might be able to partner with them through their program to continue the studies and then possibly contribute five million dollars to the final the final project whatever that is the other option is to go the private consultant approach which has some advantages as well it would probably be faster and the community would have maybe more control over the outcome but of course we would bear the entire cost of that as well one last thing to mention and then i'll open it up for discussion and question is this this gonna be a restoration foundation is is  knowing the need to find the e i a s and then and then eventually the implementation of a project there looking into the option of using the improvement district code is title fourteen fourteen point three six in our existing  code which would and establish an improvement district which would allow a tax assessment of all the properties on the bay to eventually achieve implementation of this project and of course i'm not an expert in this area as this is more of a planning item but i just wanted to let you know that that is being looked at and that that would eventually probably involve this council mr spence you have a comment now thank you mr chairman and just on the improvement district there's you know as you know we go out to all the budget meetings in the various community planning areas i was approached by a couple from one of the condos along kahana bay and they were very enthusiastic about starting this improvement district so and they reported that yes the other owners are also very enthusiastic about this so i mean they are willing to tell us themselves to restore this beach and do the necessary studies etc so i find that quite encouraging  from the members anybody have any questions but if nobody does i do m the i don't recall the costs of going out and getting the offshore sands it would that be a yearly thing that you would have to do that at some point there's going to be deterioration at some point and so you'd have to go back and get them out get some more sad softshell or deposits and bring it back to shores i didn't get the time period so i mean is that going to be every ten years every five years so there's kind of two questions in there are lost and then longevity right so i will say that the consultant has estimated that the cost of restoring the beach including the grain structures is going to be somewhere between seven to eleven million which sounds like a lot but we have nine condominiums and maybe about a thousand owners so distributed among those owners that it pencils out as economically feasible i'm in terms of longevity one of the ideas behind including the grain structures is to give this project a lifecycle that's that's meaningful and cost effective the similar iroquois point project on oahu with the installation of those grinds th losing sand and we so we expect something similar would be possible at kind of a follow up here so in terms of the time frame if we were to start the project like let's say next month how long would that take for us to eventually stabilize that beach area and in the meantime i know as part of the discussion in your group was allowing i guess a certain home removed i guess i just wanted to know the time frame i mean is that something that's been discussed yes well you know construction time frame is relatively small narrow the challenging part is the permitting so we think you know if we were able to get a project going which means starting the ass and figuring out a way to fund the implementation of ensure we between all of the planning and permitting and then implementation we're looking at three to five years if i can't really comment on how and why the planning commission decided to allow a whole army to armor temporarily but i'm i'm guessing part of it was related to the fact that you know we have this this time period in front of us i just it was kind of an what happened with the whole army the department's original recommendation was to not approve it but to defer decision making on the project on the shoreline armoring until such time as we could determine how much sand was off shore to find a more environmentally friendly solution and then armoring they had already gone through the  process the last the last approval was through the planning commission last discretionary approval the and i'll just tell you that the planning commission really wrestled with it but ultimately they felt that these property owners whether they're whether they're seasonal visitors or whether they're permanent residents and there was a mixture they felt like their properties needed in more immediate protection but they really did back the planning commission really did back the long term solution that and going out to the community meetings and and discussing things like you know setting up these these special districts it's it's paving the way for a long term solution instead of just the short term of armoring very good i do have that special permit district ordinance in my committee and it would be nice to see that  it and the finance department or on the same page table that we could possibly have then i think it would help our members to move forward on it well as part of the administration we will  work with the finance department thank you thank you very much the special district for facilities which this would fall under is already in title fourteen right so we're going to we'll work it out but there's a lot of amendments in the new ordinance because very convoluted and very difficult to maneuver yeah so i think you make whichever one works out the easiest and to the to the greatest benefit of the property owners in the community where it will and i'm kind of curious you know if we're going to go into the water and take up this and move it and bring it closer does that have an effect on where it is already where it's there because you know it again it's a process of you taking something and moving it there's a cause any problems where you take it  from as one of my colleagues always says with any project every time we're putting a shovel in the ground there's an impact right and even though this may be the the softest most environmentally friendly solution we certainly have to be careful about how it's done  there there's a lot of sand out there and it's in an area where there's a low spot in the reef because there's actually a stream channel that comes in right out of us turns right you're probably familiar with it so what happens is you have you know reef there and over geologic time streams move around and it's freshwater so it essentially dissolves away the reef and we end up with these this low spot so all the sand there is the sand that's probably eroded from gon by which is entirely armored and then it goes it goes where it can finally place find a place to rest and so it rests in that low spot so we're going to recycle it back on to the beach but only a probably a relatively small portion of it a quarter of it or so what the engineers will do and this would be done through that environmental assessment process is look at exactly how deep do you go with the sand usually when you're doing these kinds of projects you don't want to go very deep because sometimes you can get into sediment that's been buried for so long that it's and oxic and maybe doesn't have as desirable qualities and also you don't want to change the way the cemetery of the sea floor right in the way waves break and that kind of stuff so you take a shallow fin layer of sand and you can do that without having impact ok thank you i just wondered about who would say we're going to take it but i didn't want to cause a problem where it is we do  more study thank you thank you thank you chair and thank you terror for your wonderful presentation and bringing this up to date on things and i am very encouraged by the by the statements of director spence in regards to the condo owners in willing to look to the special improvement district title that we have in utilizing that and yes looking forward to working for their in mr guzman's committee very excited to hear that portion so i having glanced through the beach management plan that was handed out through this morning and there is a whole page in regards to the beach study and all the sand deposits that are off shore of this area we're speaking about so what it seemed like it had been done and then we were tapped for another hundred sixty grand to look back to do another study but this study so was just to get more updated numbers because i had no idea that they had early done a very very thorough study about this there were no studies previously done the beach management plan suggests that these types of sand search study should be done options and looking for sand resources but but we've never actually actively done any work in this area for qana so it's very site specific when you go looking for sand we know beaches erode we lose the sand from the shoreline it goes somewhere usually we don't know where it goes until we go looking for it and that's what we did in this case and it had never been done for this area ok so the page thirteen and here these numbers are just  fairly nearby near shore area because you're essentially vacuuming it up from the sea floor taking it through a pipeline as a mixture of sand and water and putting it back on the beach so if you're getting sand that's far away from the exact site where you're putting it it would not be physically possible and it probably wouldn't be very cost effective either so this particular study was done specifically for an appeal e bay at the request of the appeal e bay and beach foundation so the sites that they identify and hear the sound patches in the bar areas are only the ones that are close enough to make a project possible for an appeal ie these would be too far away more than likely from qana to be used  and then there's also the issue of you in general with beach management in san management we always want to be careful about stealing from peter to pay paul so to speak so the offshore santa resources off of an appeal e we would probably want to reserve for an appeal because they probably originated there and the offshore san resources for kahana we would probably want to reserve for  help answer the question yes and so then this iroquois point intrigues me also in but it doesn't give me the reference of what it was how long it took to get to what it looks today in this photo and as you said they were very very pleased with the outcome and predict that they will never ever have to nurse again so that's great i mean and that's good news so what kind of timeframe happened here and was there's zero beach when they started it was very similar condition there was a front row of homes there single family homes you know there were it was a military hot housing complex i think they were maybe duplexes they it was getting to a point where the beach had narrowed and homes were being threatened then they actually removed a front row of homes for that reason before they even restored the beach so the beach was probably in a very similar condition in terms of the links of time planning and permitting i don't know the exact answer to that i'm guessing just knowing the permitting process is it's as we would project for kahaani that was five years or or so but we couldn't get more information on that if if it's of interest with things i was thinking more along the lines of i mean of course the permitting and that part of the timeline but from where they took away the homes there's no beach they install these grays now the sand came back and it looks like it does in this picture that timeline the construction more than the construction of the be made in the sand i want to know how long it took to get back how long it you know to get to this state of this picture i see well one did take from the home has fallen then they removed you put the greens up you put this solution out there and then here the improvement occurred in a year this is ten years later it finally happened now the big time sink is the permitting so from the point where they remove the homes to the point where they put sand on the beach was whatever time it took for them to permit so let's just say something like five years then the construction about point is very quick you know a matter of maybe six months or less they have constructed the grains and be each of her and then san came on and now you know they put one hundred thousand cubic yards that they actually excavated right off of the edge of pearl harbor place that in between say they built the growing place the sand and move the sand down the beach as they continued building the nine growing consecutively and that was within a matter of months and now we're about three years post project o the the natural currents bring natural sand in and keep you know makes the flow a natural pattern vs is that with the greens are just holding back what was what was yeah there's sand containment structures if you want to think of them that way but in addition to containing the sand the idea of the t heads is that you actually tune those so to speak to the prevailing environment and wave wave and wind patterns of the particular site so that the wave energy that causes beach erosion is controlled available to the council will discuss internally about putting them on our website so those are those will be available to the public ok thank you very much ms rice again oh yes just more question in the segment to eleven million estimate for beach restoration of include the temporary sea well it does not it does not say would be in addition that's correct ok thank you very much do we know what that might be i think let's see let me go back to the as the cost for the whole lonnie have three million thank they have also though been placing sandbags as temporary tax in and there's an x significant expense associated with those i think the valley isles sandbags that were recently installed were somewhere around a chair the idea of the improvement district is a really critical one because it is appropriate for those of the landowners to pay for the nourishment because they're the ones that are not only threatened but they're the ones that benefit from it and essentially that's what we have in kind of poly and why lay out the plan developments that have in their covenant that we must participate in maintaining the resort and project costs somewhere in the neighborhood of ten million to ten million dollars and there's a portion of that that is going to be state funded i don't believe there's any county funding and either anticipated or or requested  we know how artists are known to take artistic license when they put in the seawall there that they're that they're expecting to do and the rocks are they also including sand or are they just saying that sand will come there i don't know you know they show is a really nice picture of sand not very wide but sand and i can only assume that there's none there now so they're going to put some in there's no placement of sand associated with the seawall project typically in recent history the summertime is the the months of recovery for this particular section of the shoreline and so you would in years past have had salmon sand accumulating out front of this property when the south swells push it back and what we're seeing is that the last two years that's no longer the case that we're probably getting to a point of permanent beach loss here in front of his property so i think they're enduring kind of assumes that you're going to have that seasonal recovery that we're no longer seen as a kind of thought that but i wasn't sure  mentioned that permitting takes the big time consuming thing how much of that can the county where is the county permitting issues and what can we do to maybe  not being the permit or i don't know if well can jim or keith respond or you want to respond mr spence and if you can respond will make that as a question to the department and then get it into the file sure thank you mr chairman it's our process sees i can just attest to the county processes are pretty laid out by either state law or by our administrative rules they pretty much have to go the way that they're they're laid out part of it too are the studies that go along with  t term mention a couple of thousand and three and a couple of those things and also the the ecosystems that are in there the those take time and they take  quite a bit of money i know that there's been support in the past by by the county council and perhaps that's something we can look forward to in the future but really it's a cost and it some of these things they just take time and when we're dealing with county agencies we're dealing with multiple state agencies and the permit ing that has to go on through the  as well as going into the federal agencies it's it's quite cumbersome it's we have all our environmental protections in place for good reason sometimes the they get on the way of doing something that everybody wants to point projects that are well supported by all the government agencies and all of the the different community groups and the property owners is very different from one that's resisted by  all the agencies the original whole lonny the project to harden was resisted all the way along that takes incredible amount of time as well to deal to maneuver through those objections so anyway as something that's supported now whether it's resumes from the council letters from my department other agencies will go a long i was going to ask that's fine i do have one particular question that hasn't really been brought up and that's the real reality of sea level rising i mean i don't care what you do to replenish we're going to have sea level rising it's going to rise no matter what we do that's been kind of an agreed upon now some people say a hundred years fifty years or twenty years the very different experts give you different time frames but we know it's coming planes do we have available because we can do all of this immediate me to give a shit what long term it's coming and so it's like putting a band aid on the problem we're not coming up with any real then when that one opens up again and maybe even worse off than it was when you first thought so i'd like to hear what you have to say to that particular long term question but really it is something we have to consider well  wise words we left out the whole discussion of climate change because that's you know another entire hour long discussion but it's true at the end of the day we eventually are going to lose beaches and we are going to lose infrastructure to the changing future conditions we we can't we will not at some point be able to keep up with the changes that are going to be coming at us from from nature i don't know what the answer to that is and thank you i just want the public to know that all of what we've discussed today by short term and what a short term lease ten years one hundred years for no one knows for sure right which that year we all were old really more or less every expert has different time frames and they're there's no real guarantee this is going to happen however if it continues on this change you know what you call global warming i don't know climate change whatever term you want to use it is calming and we necessarily the right solution everywhere we can't restore all beaches it just happens to be you know economically viable here it's a place where it's we have the high density development so it's going to be very difficult to talk about moving buildings but there are places where there are opportunities to do that single family homes you can move them so you know the tools in our tool box are limited we have to use them hopefully in the right ways in the right places fine but the reality is once you start doing something like this others will say well why can't you do it here why can't you do it there and it's this is not one size fits all solution and that's what i wanted the public to hear there will be more challenges and the way to mitigate it in the future is never allowing shoreline development point you know making set backs really two hundred fifty five hundred feet on every might be but in the future that can be done but what the president immediacy issues when i when i start of the in the planning department in one thousand nine hundred two twenty four years ago this was already a raging debate the issue of hardening the shoreline  is not a new issue but as time goes on and i remember the discussion of whether the high aussie sea wall will work or won't and and all those things  and we were starting to discuss at that time we were starting to discuss so what should the proper setbacks from the ocean be because we know what's going to code time goes on we're experiencing more and more and actually i think increased it it's accelerating but our understanding of shoreline processes has also increased considerably so it's coming more and more to the to the public forefront it's not just a bunch of planners in the planning department now making this an issue it's you know it's front and center with  weston was threatened and i believe they put in a slow privette meant a slope of rock river that meant and i know they were required to take it out but my recollection is that as you know kind of public beach is a very dynamic beach in the sand moves back and forth at great speed and pretty significant quantities but my recollection was that that rock group that was covered up fairly quickly after the swell that cause the erosion dissipated are there cases where those rock rivette mends as long as they're well sloped should just simply be left in place for a future events if they're if they're likely to get covered up or if they're going to get covered up through beach nourishment i don't know if the one pictured is sloped enough i don't recall the angle of slope that  preferred over straight up vertical sheet pile well over at our concrete wall because it does at least absorb some of the wave energy through the crevices in the in the structure as well as you know being angle than slope d and below the sand it can move and reshape as the shoreline moves and reshaped generally with armoring if you're responding to an episodic event with armoring which i think was what what happened on apollo you then you're you're probably responding at a time when you when you shouldn't right we have these episodic events during certain seasons the year where sand is moving and a lot of times those beaches recover and a lot of them we can predict exactly how they were covered you know example as baldwin beach just came up with the pavilion you know it was recently exposed and starting to be undermined by the seasonal waves but but we we could predict that we know the beach will be fully recovered by about mid november based on data we have so you you want to be careful about responding to episodic events with long term solutions and give time for beaches to recover if it's a situation like this where it's chronically eroding and you know the sands not going to recover then you know that's during up sadik events you know they become those properties that become exposed again and possibly that's a solution that can be looked at for certain sites where episodic erosion is the dominant factor versus chronic  poly one and the north in that by the sheridan toward black rock is more episodic the other end that you were speaking of mr victory no is more a chronic or asian trend we're losing sand over time so the solutions have to fit of course the conditions of the site but isn't there almost possibilities to use something like a rock or that men on the process as a backstop may not have the same long lasting impacts as a situation like this where there is never a beach buffer to recover but it will have impacts as well it may get covered up by sand temporarily  wall or something to that effect where it's solid but it curves and so would very explaining to me i don't is that when the wave hits it goes but that it drops back the water doesn't crash over it actually kind of loops back around and goes back into the ocean and also carries the sound back oh is that how the it was i don't know it's like a house semicircle type a wall it's a like a wave reflector that can be part of the construction design and that's essentially meant to keep the waves from splashing over into the property it doesn't really affect the overall function of the wall or mitigate any of the energy reflection that we have off of the wall that's undesirable it just keeps the water to some degree from going into the building ok so it's more of a preventive for their property their lawns and what have you so i my thought was it's bringing back the scent you know i'm in reference to and i am very excited that senator barbara boxer boxers and has been here and has seen with her own eyes and firsthand experience of what we're going through as a was just in a meeting at the white house yesterday  leaders with many colleagues from our neko committees and senator and all sorts of people great cross section from across the board couple people from hawaii pacific islands what have you talking about just so we are here today especially the sea level rise issues but anything that has to do with the oceans you know it we're there we're there to talk about our national policies on that high high level and how it trickles down to what we're talking about here on the ground in our islands and so you know from the arctic changes and we had representatives from the goal to up the maine vermont new hampshire area to washington orcas islands and so it's an incredible body of people and i just want to say we're talking about what our plane department is talking about to you know improve our permeating and to address adaptive changes what have you all this stuff and not just the band that we're talking about but future in the future planning is what the national level is looking for and having those comments brought to this new administration coming in and that's the job of the body that i've been  comma is to bring the voice so what we're discussing is very key and this the national level needs to understand the importance that affects us all nationwide not just our islands but collectively and why our senators our congress needs to push these types of great policies we're working on forward to help protect all of us and funding is key why do we all need the money initiatives the projects and plans and everything we all need to keep our sustain ourselves and our economy would just tourism and many other places around the nation that one slide you showed gave us that figure so that's a for everyone across that's our common thread that is that is threatened right now and we all need to be a part of it and so the high level officials at the congress level could see what they can do to help assist all of us so  appreciate this timely timely item on your agenda here today chair because it really fits into why i was sent up to d c and to bring our voice there so we're all looking like on the same page that's not a good committee and one thing that might be useful to you is you know we have this state interagency climate adaptation committee that was legislatively mandated i don't know too late to ledge sessions ago and the committee and the scientists involved have been doing lots of work and as far as i understand jeff tack is in the audience here from the planning department is trying to organize a session with with the i kept for council maybe sometime in the without your with your without any objection i would like to certainly defer this item and i don't know if it'll come up again this year but at least i will be asking that it be moved forward to the next term so and i was looking at that and and i don't want to forget how important that is in the context of this discussion if we do not have those studies on the planning department's website we will go ahead and and put them on at some point they are a little bit dated and and i recall mr couch was on the technical advisory committee back in probably two thousand and four the p d p project it identifies the shoreline erosion through that area as one of the primary reasons to do this to to move the highway so this is again this is another thing that's been identified for a very long time and mahalo to the people who participated in that but there is some of these things should be updated but they will but they are at the forefront of discussion right now and will make sure they're available to the general public ok thank you and thank you for that yes that was a very interesting study and set of meetings and that's one of the reasons why we're here today and always advocating for the movement of that highway again members were ready to do for this and it will be high on the list you know hopefully on the next planning commission committee without any objection this will defer this item ok this item is deferred members let's take a ten minute break be here be back here by five minutes to eleven because we still have a bit of discussion or at least comments so this meeting is in recess and until ten minute or five minutes to eleven  the planning committee meeting of what is today october sixth please come back to order right members we talked a little bit about this at the beginning of the meeting for those who weren't here will go through the instructions again members your committee for were on p c thirty seven to increasing of atory of available housing you committee formed a temporary investigative group earlier this year to investigate ways to increase the availability of housing the temporary investigative group was led by council member elie cochran is chair council member gladys and bison and i were members today is sunshine law the committee may only receive the report at this meeting and may not have any deliberations on it in it until a subsequent meeting however the members of the temporary investigative group may report orally on the investigation including disclosing the findings and recommendations of the group and advocating for the recommendations members of the planning committee who are not members of the investigative group may only ask clarifying questions of the group members and may not discuss or deliberate upon the recommendations this is based on an office of information practices guidance we got that last night i ask you if any member has clarifying questions for a tick member please direct your question to me i will then determine if the question is the best is best left for a next meeting when full discussion of the report will occur or asked to member to respond i intend to schedule a full discussion of the group's findings and recommendations at our meeting of october twelfth we will have their quorum at that meeting it will only last two hours so we're going to have a discussion about that and then probably recess that meeting to the following week and have a full panel based on our discussion of the four that are going to be here so if you can make it or move things around please come to the october twelfth meeting because you have some input as to who we are going to have on the panel at this time yes thank you very much chair and it was quite exciting even i think we all can agree on a very informative and productive so first off i just want to say mahalo for allowing me to chair this investigative group on increasing the housing  inventory this was a valuable opportunity to engage with the community to explore what the problems are and hammer out real creative solutions that i believe will result and will result in more housing for residents and our group was report but then all the attachments that reinforce what's in our report is in an attachment of about an inch worth of papers we have the prior ties and a list of items that we believe are equally as important that we ask be referred to appropriate standing committees for for their attention so this was a learning process i believe for everyone involved and the group had community meetings with developers contractors builders home finance experts and our administrative departments we brought our ideas to the table sifted through them together some a very dia's were thrown out and some new ideas were brought to us by the people in the community who know this issue very very well the content in this report was generated by the community and is supported with solid research and tools for quick implementation so our proposed solutions fall into a few categories one would be infrastructure problems were recurring theme in our current infrastructure doesn't really support the development of more homes and developers are required to bear most if not all of those upgrade costs which gets press passed on to the price of the home and number two we examine the true cost of view building affordable homes what kinds of factors contribute to higher home costs and how the company can assist in bringing those costs down responsibly some of our proposed solutions focus on streamlining the plan mean zoning review and permitting processes so the time and many see it can result in lower home prices third we focused on county supported solutions how we can best use county own labs and resources to build the workforce how easy so for the record and for everyone out there listening all this that items and ask anyone who's interested in the details to read the report and the tach resources in full the five items are ranked as the most important in order of priority for immediate consideration by the planning committee one permitting accessory or affordable as accessory dwellings on smaller lots to comprehensive rezoning by the council to match the maori island plan three expediting the the building plan review process by developing a catalog of pre approved plans for explores zoning and permitting issues relating to this stablish ment of tiny houses communities and tiny houses on existing lots five identify under developed properties with multifamily and industrial designations that could be targeted for redevelopment as multifamily housing so there's also night items that were considered to be important by the take members based upon our investigation but are more suitable for consideration in of the council committees and take members asked the council chaired to consider referring these following items to the appropriate committees one prioritize county development of off site infrastructure especially water improvements sewer and traffic to support housing and make it more affordable to third party county employee chief to coordinate construction of affordable housing three creating a one stop shop at the new county service center to streamline the processing of permits for revise county housing policies both maui county code chapters two point six and two point nine six to encourage the development of affordable housing to reduce barriers and costs five considers the sale of colony own properties fairways and sand hills estates of division use money from the sale of these properties to develop affordable housing six proposed an amendment to maui county code section three point three five point zero one zero b to require a larger percentage around four percent of real property taxes to be set aside in the affordable housing fund seven investigate building affordable homes or rentals nine allow for an independent third party building plan review process for quicker process so we will need even more community engagement as we move forward with these ideas input from community advocates is going to be an important part of ensuring that these solutions are vetted and implemented quickly and so in the interest of our local residents who are in dire need of this house too it's been no interesting experience to be part of this and there is just so much information to look at and so much to sift through and to try to prioritize and i think  pleased with the report i realize that it will probably be sure that by the time we're done but there is much in it that makes perfect sense as it is well backed up by a good documentation so there w lot of it a lot of it you know we can we can get some results quickly we're in a crisis and we can sit here and you know theorize for the next ten years but i think it's really important that we agree to some things and do them as quickly as possible i am in support of the report and again it's been a pleasure to be a part of the big and i hope that we will get support from the members to get some of these items going as quickly as we can thank  garneau we everybody got together and everybody came to a really good conclusion your staff did a bang up job and did some went above and beyond in some cases so i really appreciate that and i really appreciate the community members who did come out we had a long discussion with the people who actually deal with this in different places different locations and different manner so i really appreciate them getting all this information put together members it's going to be some very interesting comments and findings as i heard some muttering already while that how that how some of these things got up to the top so it's going to be some good discussions in like i said october twelfth we're going to have i think only four of us here and if some of you can change your schedule it would be great because it be some very good discussions and then the following meeting i can't remember exactly i think it's the twentieth we're going to have a panel here some folks and really get down to the meat and potatoes of this says number one is that something that i should take note of is that that's the highest priority that's the highest priority is my understanding that the these are in priority ok of what we think should go first second third and i guess my second question to i think at the at the end i'm fine i would love to ask that question but we went from you can't even say any words to what we're saying now in twenty four hours or so on one of the kerry now i just i just like i'm looking at number one any final comments from any of the take members seeing now and i look forward to everybody on the october twelfth meeting to come in as much as you can and then get deep into those oh yes i'm sorry it is going to be at one thirty i think it's one thirty disagree thirty definitely will and it's three thirty if not sooner we're going to do as much as we can with only four people out of seven i understand so we're not going to get into the meat too much but we're going to answer questions like that and go into each item and get responses from the department etc mr victory no you look like you may have had a question i have no questions i need to hear what the public has to say about all of this and you know i will not be at the top because i'll be in the main and and the twenty and i'll be in the main and so i'll just have to scheduling came about the same way so i will be able to participate but i will say this i will look forward to reviewing the tapes when they are pleaded and then you know when we have the last meeting where will we have kind of get more into the substance then we'll talk about it more and i'm going to put this out there and mr either mr hopper or mr orally and of course they will be in the record as soon as you submit them so feel free to send some a question since you're not going to be here and even comments if you want and then i'll make sure that they get read into the record is that all right with you mr hopper i mean i just do not happened if it's been done before and it's a common practice that's that's fine but i thought generally those were those are avoided but it's kind of like member oral testimony or something like that and i'm not sure if we've done that before ok discuss this on the first day that it's being handed out to us and why do we have to wait for another meeting and this is kind of ridiculous you know it's like i thought it was there is kind of you know why we can't even case the sunshine law talks about want to talk about the kind of the ticket exception it says two or more members of a board but less than the number of members which would constitute a quorum for the board may be assigned to investigate a matter relating to the official business of their board provided that so a the scope of the investigation and the scope of each member's authority are defined at a meeting of the board so that's one step be says all resulting findings and recommendations are presented to the board at a meeting of the board and see deliberation and disk making on the matter investigated if any occurs only a duly noticed meeting of the board held subsequent to the meeting at which the the opposite findings and recommendations of the investigation were presented to the board that was over you cannot deliberate or make decisions and i guess so ip is said they don't feel that receiving the report or asking clarifying here but thank you on everyone's behalf for this and again i think it's a very helpful tool that we have in this to process and with and fortitude lies even in the future for other in depth things that we need to work on on the side bar as mr in any of our lists and i just want to share now that i my office is moving forward on its behalf in particular with that term and with the meeting is to have our