'll be here shortly if you arrives will insert him into the proceedings as well i want to first welcome everyone and thank you all for coming to this afternoon's hearing on improving the laboratory experience for america's high school students this is particularly for me it marks the very first hearing the research and sub research and science education subcommittee for this congress and i want to take just a moment to express how pleased i am to be able to chair this particular subcommittee i want to especially thank my good friend and colleague the ranking member dr a leader of this very committee till recently he has been a true leader on science committee in general has extensive knowledge of an experience with the important issues that come before this committee and i look forward to drawing upon his knowledge and his friendship and  welcome where we're just getting started so come on up my friend i will start with you once i get through all my initial poll ever i also want to acknowledge that she's not with us today she's on the democratic side eddie bernice johnson who preceded me as the democratic leader on this subcommittee and her role as ranking member i intend to continue her good work and especially her commitment to math and science education particularly as it pertains to under represented communities i'm pleased that ms johnson has decided to continue her service on this committee it's the first committee hearing i want to take just a brief moment to offer a few observations of how i don't approach this committee and hopefully that will set the stage for some of what we'll do in the future i would say at the start that long before i was in congress i was scientist i hold a doctorate in clinical psychology specialized in rural psychology and science is not just the committee i serve on is and it's the same with dr elders this is something that's in our blood we are scientists it's we're passionate about it and i'm passionate about it not just as a scientist but as a member of congress i believe that reason informed by fact he's a pretty to darn good way to lead your life and it's a very good way to make public policy and we're not alone in that those who know the history of this great country know that some of our greatest founders franklin especially but also jefferson and washington as well had a passionate commitment to science and to investigative research as a way to guide agriculture as well as public policy at the same time because i've been in the scientific field i recognize that science has its share of problems and there's room for improvement and i want to underscore from the outset that ultimately government funded scientific research is important that is exist by taking the hard earned money of taxpayers who could use that money in countless other ways to fund their health care to send their kids to school to pay for their house you name it and they take that money we as government take that money from hard working taxpayers and we give it to scientists to conduct their studies that seems to me to place a particular responsibility on the scientists who receive such funds simply put if such if such one cannot explain why it's worth while it was while to take another person's harder and more and more and money to do a study maybe that study should not be done and i know that's a s t s truong principle and i am putting passion about science but i believe sleep scientists have a responsibility to record record recognize where the money comes from that funds their studies make sure their work merits that credibility i recognize fully that many times scientific research or charge at the initial stages is not always transparent parrot parrot parents in terms of how it might be applied down and down and down the road but i would urge also all scientists especially those receiving government government government funds to ask themselves felt at some point how do i just a festivus to fly that to the crab fishermen the chairman on the pacific coast of the lager in the mou  preference necessary for one party party party or another i have come to love to learn since i've been in congress they're there they're there are many good ideas and on both sides of the aisle and we should we should we should listen to them regardless of which side they come from i've also come to come to believe there are many stupid ideas on both on both sides of the aisle and we should evaluate them accordingly but on this can this committee i'll say to my friend mr alexander's mr hall i look forward to working with you folks have some thinking thinking things we can work on together by all means let's let's let's do it and as we're working forward on issues coming from our side we'll approach and see how we can make it make it make it better for everybody concerned so thank you for for your leadership your show your ship and with that i want to say that  equipment and facilities and current curriculum development research research research and demonstration projects will be focus focus on improving labs of high school serving large populations of student student students under represented in science science science and math careers today s it's these kids at the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder who are who are who are most lacking this valuable you're liable learning experience how valuable is the latics products have experience for teaching science and what's wrong with the labs in high school now the effective use of what many consider to peer to peer to be an integral part of learning science to be sure languishing testing facilities and old equipment are problems the report though brings brings attention to the nonphysical issues such as such as such as inadequate teacher training education so devoted that we know that we know that we added science education to the name a name name of the committee the subcommittee itself were concerned that american students to the students are not achieving their potential in some science and math education it's a concern as we look at competing country improving k through twitter twitter twelve science education is the ultimate ultimate key to the future prosperity and strength strength of our nation as a national external external academy pointed out in its report rising above the gathering storm farm farm improving k through twelve is any worse than anyone who also came along probably somewhat better but but a pseudo science scientific group and certain science science science scientists are trying to make take science a partisan issue in the white  and his answer was simply if you can you can't sell it to your local rotary correct how do you expect me to sell it to the congress and that's the key point all scientists and to enter should be out selling their their particular work to the police the public so they and the proposed legislation will be an invaluable part of the committee process there's there's clearly in need to improve upon plan high school leverage or experience it's it's one of the  one hundred fifty years ago over ninety five depended percent of the people in this country who lived on farms and i don't know how many present have you have lived on a farm or worked on a farm i grew up in a farming community and every child who grows up on a farm learns physics by using the equipment on a farm today only a small fraction of ginevra population university of colorado he developed a physics educational technology pudgy podgy project using sim sim simulations for both teaching and learning physics and has a mate made them for them freely available through a are more educationally effective than real hardware in the in other words simply saying we have to have a laboratory experiment or mr mintz is not may ninety nine not need the entire answer or may not even be think that more evidence is nest nest necessary to determine what an effective laboratory look and looks like i look to look forward to the discussion about developing intraday laboratories and to learn from other witnesses all community particularly the chairs chairs of the stem education coalition james brown of the american can on chemical society and george already peterson of the national science science teachers association and for their advocacy thank they and on the on behalf of the opportunities for young young young people and for their for their commitment to ensuring that we do we do we do not lose future science scientists engineers because because they did not get preparation and in laboratories science in high school we have major holes in our pipeline plan for preparing future professional finance and science technology and gender during and math hardy students the national national science foundation commissioned this the study by the national research research research council in the state of america's high school labs years i would like to draw your two intention to two glaring fine  i i come from an area in south south texas that is two hundred fifty fifty fifty miles south of san antonio the area is heavy percent his and his and hispanic and an area that has far too many n n human can bill in education a public school excludes schools in colleges and universities and other infrastructure projects that are helping that area listed in the top one thousand high schools in the country that math math and science academy is in the top top top ten and has best been for three consecutive nurse nursing and and we have put up with produced a lot of practicing thing medical doctors and the important thing is that we focused a great a great a great deal on the hazy science labs why because as one of the members of the educator came to cation committee here in congress a great grace i went to visit tom thomas jefferson high school and that is the northern or the northern virginia and i waste the sluice among the top part producers of national merit scholar scholars it's it's amazing that that they can produce seventy semifinalist list for that designation gentian and that out of those seven people to be semifinalist thirty you got the national merit scholarship and so that is proof that what i'm going to say it makes a big difference works and that is that when when i took a delegation from bum bum bum the math and science a catechetical to me of south texas the robot robot or about ten men and women who were work there the superintendent several of the of the professor answers and several school global board members and we we noted that their lab la laboratories was the ones that was the most exciting thing that in that the students had in their rigorous educational program you couldn't get a job job at that school because because because nobody wants to quit they had teachers with math masters and p h d just and the students you could you couldn't get them out because they had such like it's such exciting projects going on the college bucks there's no there's no there's no doubt in my mind that with that with that we're on the right track with this legislation i'm pleased to tell you that in just a short while this afternoon let let let less than forty five minutes in it and it's i gather it for forty most closely with no sponsorships to add to the of the original thirty sponsors of this who build up some some courage and invest in our heart high school labs and i think think that things are going to really improve from with that mr chairman i yield back about the bout the pack passion and experience and we would hope that we could in all of our my districts and across this country replica replica replica replicate the kind of successes you've discussed coskata thank you very much for been greatly think of on this at this professor of science and science education and director of the center for summer sun for science and math in context at the at the university of massachusetts in boston awesome he also served on the national research council committee that i had authored america's lab report well well as a spring day spa thank you spring baseball institute softball season begins i thought it would be good to take take take a moment to imagine two teams getting getting getting ready for the season one one team has both teams have fans and baseball players in good good good good coaches and one of them gets to practice with bats and balls and get on get on get gets on the field the other gets to watch video video videotapes and learn and read books about they are baseball and we have to wonder which team would you rather have rather have your child on who's going to do better this season well well it's a silly question to ask because because the answer is obvious you want a team who can you can you can practice get the same situation a passion a perilous situation exists today in a high school labs where some students get the get the opportunity to investigate the process of science by doing something song science while others get to hear hear about science listen to two people tell about science a patch patch patch watch videotapes and then the national council research incidences and we looked at the goals of the fact in this of labs labs in america legislation considered here corresponds to to the conclusions reached here related conclusions children in poor communities aren't even getting those and those labs and children who can who can who are lower in academic ability in affluent school discuss with not getting those labs either so why do we care about lab mix of experiences why are the poor quality these two sticks and she goes she goes she goes like this and then the sweater pops out after a certain amount of time and now i want to watch this for twenty five years with quite with care and what what what are the yet we think though that so that students can watch somebody somebody else do science and they'll be able to figure it out if i can't do it with needing a single sweater i don't think you few you think they'll be able to do it but by doing that that's one reason w the learning learning the television viewing habits of black and white americans out of the top ten television program programs only two were and were and were in common on both lists what that meant to me was that every it's only five miles from the house so i have no idea what kids in the brass brass rask thinking when they read in the book like like like the waves at the beach well well what we do in the lab is we give people equally pl a tub of water they sloshing shit back and forth they make o they make measurements they draw they draw conclusions based on that without that so they we don't have to have to assume that the only people people people people who are make understanding fans of this other ones who were lucky lucky lucky enough to more opportunity for better equipment we should have the same sense of urgency for our students instead of just being science students students they can be students scientists thank you and you're like you're much realizing the importance of high school will laboratory experiences and for its leadership and dedicate a cation to this issue the palace legislation would could create a pilot program at  supplies the parents bill will help fill fill our gaps in knowledge and in a way that will make it possible for for a large range of schools to benefit and if that from the results of the pi pi pilot research program that forty two percent cent of all schools surveyed national as nationally reported they were not not well at all equipped in the area of laboratories very science a second check and check and g a o report in two thousand and five titled federal science technology engineering and math mathematics programs related trends and found that approximately forty three percent of those college students who left the science fields reported pointed some problems related to high school science preparation  under preparation with off some linked to problems such as not understanding calculus and the lack of lack of laboratory experience we know we have many jenny jenny challenges ahead in our efforts efforts to reform and strengthen the science science education that we provide provide to students for science science to be taught properly and and effectively labs must be an integral part of the science science science curriculum but in many many schools lab science is done  the bout the poor state of the lab to sell it filippi and instruction in their schools and the challenges that they face in providing a quality lab experience for students to do things this urban teacher wrote and in my urban fire blankets or any other equipment and another teacher told us i have no specifics safe area in which to conduct and the conduct labs my yearly budget is the same as it was twelve y ago i must purchase office all of my equipment and supplies i have no safety equipment other than a portable i wash station and a fire extinguisher or for my district cleans that but that labs are extra curricular or even what it looks like due to lack of ending this biology teacher teaching teacher wrote i've been teaching which in high school biology for ten years years i've microscope sit ups that i could actually swap out for coke poke poke bottles and not even notice the difference however the the greatest problem i see is my eyes my eyes my lack of skill in the area of lab investigations and i agree that this is the best bet the best support put source of learning m my kids can get but i simply simply simply don't have the skill to design these and these labs safety is a huge concern we do not have any rooms to use actual laboratories although we have lots of equipment that meant we had no place to safely use it has it and few teachers who know how how how to use it currently only the one room that had been a lab is used by teachers to sell how how how chocolate and natural it shows to students to raise raise money for trips to washington d c for a very small group of students the lab cannot view you used as a lab they removed it of that of the tables and replace them with them with jeff and and and finally we heard this from a what students really needed an introductory chemistry experience pyrex perience at the high school level and i and i and i cannot figure out how to teach watch and watch logical thinking and sequencing to over twenty students in a in a in a in a lab at the same time preparing my testimony for the sub sub sub committee i decided to confront him from from from my general chemistry class of some but some background questions concerning their their high school laboratory experiencing a thing that says my survey consistency consist of the several questions to finally deducted lab portion of your high school chemistry mistry course help to prepare you for your college chemistry course or source only twenty one percent of kind of greed early in my career first first as an industrial chemical synthesis or this or this or the employment of investigative techniques to characterize substances as the physical pursuit of the science was always pulling me back into the laboratory it is the nature of the pursuit which can and for what for what form and sometimes and lighten and within the proper setting such and such and such is a high school laboratory even provide opportunities of growth growth growth growth and inspiration traditionally these opp occur in the normal experience is not as fast as found in high school science labs which are highly structured around classical laboratory technique nicks and chemical synthesis it should be arch our chief concern to replace these truths truth is traditional high school lab exercises sizes with experiences of active active exploration and discovery with the participation of local local local local colleges and universities such such laboratory experiences participating in a five year and a senate senate funded program which provides side such opportunities for its undergrad graduate students the research research experience to enhance hance program which is r e e l addresses to the issue of student experience or injury and seeing the discipline of care of chemistry through participation in an actual research situation patients instead of performing on the norm in a series of lab experiments and listed on the syllabus the students learn to design an x x execute green chemistry experiments performed on local environmental samples during the course of the so the semester students utilize an topics covered in the course responding general chemistry lecture and addition to advanced laboratory instrumentation and second set and techniques unavailable to stoops to students in rolled in traditional general general chemistry lab courses at the end of the part of the part of the course is based on individual into a powerpoint presentations of each of each of each student's research a company company company by the written write ups students also are and are encouraged to publish and research journals journals journal of undergraduate research research as well as making presentations at the real chemistry can some some symposiums and local ace a c s meetings a miniature although this because particular program is set up on the universe university campus with a did did additional funding and proper training of school teachers this type of program could and could be offered at a secondary school level within this type of like of like of like of laboratory experience students or start soon to acquire a sense of owners as supplies equipment and welcomes to consider constructive laboratories are in the implementing implementation of a viable teach teach teaching program i strongly believe that the failure of our high school students to successfully partly participate in college level science curriculum is in part due to our failure to inspire dire dire than this inspiration race placement sorry this inspiration can only come from well informed foreign teachers with strong attach match match match wits to their subjects good science teachers need to be well well grounded in their turf the they need opportunity entities outside of the normal course work work work to continually develop elop not only as teachers but also so as scientists enable school teachers to actively participate in some research opportunities within the research i'm sorry it's in their area you know universities high school teachers teachers teachers would better be able to appreciate she ate and understand the nature of some science believe that most teachers know the vet of better value of the experiences of working with data and if they are not able to have students experience collection extinction of data and analysis on their own they're on their own then they probably provide them with data sets and they provide them with experiences that can be as close closely match to go as that they would have in a laboratory experience without actually having the man be able to pull to people to participate in that kind of expects experience of course all of that has to be connected really truly truly truly to the strong content and the intricate part of what they're teaching and not in developer development of curricula we come up i'm up with models and you folks do good research search and i appreciate the work you did i've read read read read much of that report how do we disseminate it say so that actually it has an impact not just in the schools but in the teeth teaching institutions that kamaka the colleges of education so that when we understand what we're working to teach science it's actually the lack of a sense of urgency to improve education and that america and this is as much of our responsibility as it is it is it is your responsibility in congress congress on greece and our nation's responsibility that some some somehow we can't seem to capture the sense of urgency that i know we will show she will share that we have to turn to turn this around or it's going to be too too late to make the changes the national science foundation does a one wonderful job dollars and wealth in that decision it's very interesting do we do we do we fund a science lab in fact where we say well we can't have the safety equipment when we fund the actually teachers have been paying from from their own pockets for many years not just in science but some teachers or you can buy and pencils for their students it's exacerbated bettered by the topics that we cover and are in for in money to buy buy equipment but it seems that rich that right now in particular there's a great deal of emphasis on other subject areas and not as much emphasis on soft science and you probably realize that that going to do for us if it is it's going to provide us with research much needed need needed research on higher labs are utilized what is needed for quality laboratory experiences s expect expand this resolution we could expect stand it and add a lot more money to it in perhaps the us consider researching into middle schools as well but hype high schools a great labs it's hard to say which when when you would put first first first absolutely teaches you just need a great deal more training than even even even with training what do you what do you what do you do if you don't have the equipment and if you're getting the equipment you don't you don't have the training you don't know what to do with it you know that either so it's both of them go very much hand and he and he both are vitally important point porton but i think it's a good good time i think the congressman has has a great time to introduce if i feel feel feelings were that publicly known on and on we take action but they are sort of certainly well known i think people are catching on but the problem is deeper than that because recent poll of students asked them whether they thought it was more important for kids to learn more math and science or most universally they said yes yes we just we definitely knew that just one when your conclusion was that due to the lack of a standard standardized definition of a lab it's very hard to measure the impact of lab experience princes on learning  done people were defining labs and also in all sorts of ways we're not defining it so and so and so you're trying to say are these events research reports telling us that that's the same thing it wasn't obvious because because because they weren't defining lads the same same way so research agenda and and answer some of the questions that are that are noted there we certainly certainly want to know the cost of the expense and then fence and the time and all sorts of concerns having to do it with labs careers and we have to look at different elements of that but the lab itself as as as the report says cannot be an isolated portion of the environment so what happened happened happens too often is a teacher in a school which which does have labs they end up going to go to the to the lab when it's available sol so i'll go two weeks before i teach the topic or go through three weeks after i taught the topic all go in somebody else's and using it in the equipment instead of saying saying saying you know we have learning models instruct structural models which help people people to understand better that we know help with student achievement the idea is that you go to the lab so you can have experiences take data data and then draw conclusions on data you've taken  can and then see how did i interpret it how did the set the scientists interpret it is it is it the same way how do i get it get it get over misconception so the question is is when you do a lab on the committee with us and and it was it was a wonderful privilege and i have known known known i've known him for a number of years of years and he's extremely dedicate dedicate education and his generosity of this of his time and actually his lot larger integrated program but we could do simulations of also what's your what's your what's your experiments on computers but the scientists don't do that now they still say no say no i have to go into the lab i have to get to get to get to get parity to make sure i understand stand what nature is telling me not what some programmers telling me so there's proc print probably there's not it's not one tool for one job job but this idea of the integrated instruction option optional unit the good it's been shown in small studies what i what i what i think this allows us to do is to scale it up to a larger program to show we can be effective and then we hope people will take notice and soon say i want to do follow up is just just there son what you just said and this i would i would like to address to zero in this is a lack of laboratory equipment a bigger bigger problem i'm sorry let me restate studies that have to have to be done because of that expertise parties from all the possible civil possibilities that are out there out there the the the question is what happens when the bill gets passed so be optimistic here and we have to have some follow up studies over the next in the next few years and we get money we show that this can be effective and we recognize the importance of this for all students so we have to make sure that students didn't sin impoverished areas minority students get get this opportunity lads and we funny funny funny find out that in the affluent schools holes that the students who didn't perform for perform well academically they should also also get an opportunity to have lab jobs then labs are expensive because you know this kickoff five mill i know i know like million dollars is very nice for a small section of boston much less the united states when you're talking talking talking about the kind to see the emphasis on the committee meeting adding the science education into the title i think i think it really deserves that and again makes a strong statement that that's going to be important focus of the subcommittee and  you don't have to convince me i mean we've seen all the studies that talk about how we're lagging behind we've seen how important it is to capture sure that students early and get that better in science or engineering but you know how can we do a better job job because i've talked to many to any different science and engineering groups about how about how about how important it is for them to speak legislation that in the can support the efforts and in the things that we are doing in the classroom every day and without this the strong legislation that we probably cannot cannot accomplish our goals to really teach all children we are focusing sing on and so we realize the path the power of legislation certainly teachers are not the most vocal people when it comes from individuals and legislative efforts within the last couple of decades we we were not that led legislatively alerting we were not paying attention to what was going on on the hill the way we said he said he should have been but our members really had an outcry and said with with we need to get involved we need to find out about about the bills that are that are being passed on the hill and what kinds of things are happening to us alleges legislatively and that's why we now now have a very strong legislative slave component mean these are scientists who happen to have made this transition and recognize nice the importance of politics most scientists don't understand how it works they're very good at doing that we know we need bench science but but but but they you know it just makes sense sense schoolteachers just just make sense you should support education case cation i don't understand what was posted do do out there to get how do you can can convince people when it makes sense to ever ever ever everybody and so we so we so we don't know how to do that and i think think think teachers in general girl girl girl a very shy about getting and getting involved in politics because of course they play this very sensitive rove rove role with children and they have to have to keep their personal views to if they get they get caught up in politics sticks that might be tracked from what they're supposed to be doing it's not true i mean we all have to be involved in our communities involved in the national level but the question question question of how do you become an advocate and how do you do you do that and how do you make that step i think for most scientists scientists most teachers we don't know how we just we just say every everybody agrees with us we need be better schools we need more teeth better teaching we need more equipment need we need labs what more can we if everybody understands it how do we get them to do it that's the part that i think you're right you're right you're asking why don't teach move to the next step summer for lesser years i've been teaching catching catching chemistry to middle school teachers with a lot of the licensure just like to say about this is i feel like this is part of the movement to get things and things and things more into the  encourage that because that because i think the extent we can encourage more is more scientists in its engineers to speak out as part of the art of this public policy discussion in to make the case it really helps the public polic website of this very committee last year this committee made a big big big big push to try to provide science science science research our science teacher teaching and experience all tools on this website i don't know if we help we have a link to the physics folks folks program dr elders reference but we should try to try to add at least a link to that so i would encourage you to perhaps let your fellow teachers know snow especially at this upcoming convention and jane i was hoping ducking ducking the rising crap that you were going to say that fift be we'd be appalled and i think i think many members may not you know you not know the condition of those schools i make it a personal point of view that every high school high school in my district every two years i can and some forty plus plus almost fifty schools but and i think the relative not typically well equipped i confess that not having been to the science labs of all of them but about it but i've been to the schools but if your teachers are in those straits please and could encourage them to let their member of congress know that because from my perspective and you know i as we rarely reference a lot in this committee will reference efforts many more times the beyond beyond the gathering storm report one of the one of the fairly soft soft but i found intriguing proposals alluded to in there is the notion notion notion of a voluntary national shasha all science curriculum where you take take best practices and it becomes a voluntary accident of that of where your parents happen to live a little live or work every every kid should have access to equal quality education and one of the things that intrigues about a voluntary national national action a curriculum would be th and those schools participate would have x access to that i'd welcome your thoughts on whether with and whether it's a dumb idea or a good idea or what the problems like the end in the open that are that is not up to anybody one of the problems right now  they're calling them a variety of different think things and so we have a lot of people who've come come come up with the brian of solutions to what they they believe is good science of bullet points points that need to be addressed and within this in this in the science curriculum content specific to watch no one can possibly teach each everything that's in those gibble number something that we that we that we really consider the as essential anchors hers of science education and that they might help teachers so not first hand experience with this when you look at these bullet points isn't isn't it seems like the notion behind teaching teaching teaching science is to make sure we've covered cover covered certain key topic areas to be perfectly i forgot aside my own experience it would be far less important cover up for all the topic areas and again to give me a hands on experience with the process and and in the way of solving approaching problems that involves hypothesis generation well  that the point kind of point you're making taken us in the end i appreciate your point is saying cover all of the for the points the bullet points that are that are that are identified the specificity makes it to a point point where you can you is now on the school board science and the science teachers i would assume would assume and feeling they have to get good gear up to cover that stuff pop possibly at the expense of laboratories for experience asks questions about what does this mean fact fact fact fact fact it doesn't talk about the process os osses of science how do we know how then of course teachers are going to move and say hey hey hey forget these ways of teaching which to which talk about process we talk about it's about experiments let's just give a lot of worksheets and get the facts x x because that's what's really required and we want to protect a tech ourselves so the formation of as i heated it the rod contracts it and somehow somehow that didn't seem good so i repeated the measurement and got the same answer i went to the instructor and said i've observed a very consider this just just out of the blue totally new or is there something else we could try it and i'm unclear unclear on what you mean the yes no no no no i think that most of the legislation and funding for improved laboratory tory tories question goes to universities and compound colleges i don't think it often goes to high schools i think that's usually left to the  you give talking money for investigation of lot of lot of lads and equipment and to test these these instructional model models certainly there are parts of other and s s f programs where this this is this is a small part of it but not the not the major directed not saying the labs are important enough for us to customize to get behind and figure out what works and what doesn't that raises the next point relating to this wonderful concordance at and i really needed to the national science time it's on its foundation to write up a request quest for proposals which could take a ticket to account for all of these different possibilities they can weigh the  university is the is the p i how much how much money is going to the high schools will be even will be the most effective how is the research done so i don't know if it's a simple simple simple answer there are no simple answers in wash wash washington  paying the training for the teacher it's yours i'm just looking for inferring for handles to restructure so that it fits better with and in a sense but also makes it easier to get past and as well and it strikes me actually maybe the instruction i got as a ski instructor may be better in some ways than what people get as science science science teachers and  the reason i say this is this is this any ski instructor in america who's certified has a certain clear a curriculum that they know a certain certain sequence of skill development and exercises designed to achieve those skills and the equipment is fairly standard because everybody's got their skis and boots and poll of polls and they go through that that that and you're taught that so you don't just say well you can ski pretty go go teach people how to know how to do what you do that not works you get first you teach this technique then this so much so much so my question is does that have have happened in our i get trained in a series of activities and accompanying material available and exercises that i will then that have that have been some way been tested in demonstration straighted effective and i think you know how much is devoted to labs do we know how to teach effectively so that that's a whole different area that again the carnegie foundation is looking at very closely states state how do we tie that professional additional development to the curriculum that when they when they do going in that class it's more for for effective than when you have generic network and i think that's speaking something you're saying so if it teaching curriculum in that class and you gear the professional development towards what curriculum they there's less of a jump for that teacher to be able to transfer that knowledge to that classic classic classroom it's more effective for me it would be one of the i've talked to a number of  let's say and maybe that's not the best but i think some are simple basic laws of mechanics so you teach ing about those conceptually if you want to make a directly clean clean with the teaching curriculum is that being done down in places because that seems to me to means to me to be the best way to do it that's interesting instructional model and it's part of good engage students intellectually what is that is that research by all of these comes come together for strong extensional programs but when i referred to academic in the academics being dismal i didn't necessarily need me to mean it's all dismal but trying to get a before the committee today and for you and for your work beyond today you've all all all all worked distinguished careers and goods and contributed in so many ways were great for great for grateful for you sharing your expertise and if there's no objection the record or middle remain open for additional statements from the