duty including since purported escape from the ship in the letter that could not fit in the envelope your honor a couple of responses to that first the majority of the decision is based on pure speculation and conjecture crazy and then i'm off the ship your honor first we don't know the details of the ship and what was actually the are the architecture of the ship and as far as what was seen so it's certainly possible that he may have been able to motives and missions of war but what we have to find an appeal did the judge and substantial reason to find him incredible he can you explain the presented to the immigration judge and petitioner quinn explained that she received the summons and then put it into a book and so certainly it's possible if the folds were changed when it was put into the book that there may other beast be folded in that that are not  readily visible to the naked eye but since there was no forensic expert that was offered to actually really truly look at that document it was told me based on the immigration judge examining it  honor i do want to point out that a document can always fit into an envelope it's always just an issue of how it's folded and again there may have been folds that were not visible to the naked eye that were not examined by the judge and you know had there been an expert that was presented to question that improbable seems to exist in our explained when he testified that he actually had developed a personal relationship with the commissar and so in the beginning he was hiding the materials on  but there's no indicia otherwise that any of the nine letters that petitioners wife sent detailing the visits that she received from the chinese government or the right notice or the summons otherwise are are not valid there was you know the case is very similar to shalyn that in general now there were facts warrants that were received and in this case these were the original documents but the immigration judge concluded that since they were not properly authenticated he would not give them white in addit judge stated that he would not give full weight to the nine letters that were submitted by petitioners wife because she was not available for cross examination but in general the court is clear that unless there's evidence of forgery or unreliability in those letters then the make a phone call he did your honor and he explained in his testimony that he was very worried about going back to china and so he explained his motivation for taking them off which was to protect himself but since we don't know physically the layout of the ship we certainly don't know whether it was not possible for him jackets because there certainly was possible that the that the commissar had to change because again they had developed a friendship and so it is possible that the that the commissar will not letting him off in japan would then go ahead and let him off when they reach sacramento it's possible the court says we can't guess why officials do why they did what they do we need only to look at what the objective evidence is and if the objective evidence is otherwise reliable and has no no evidence of forgery or unreliability then we same case that cited in the briefs the immigration judge there did not believe that the indian government would be going after people who were just minor political activists and the court then again says that speculation and conjecture  in your favor your honor i actually think that's correct i did cite for the record in terms of what country conditions demonstrate on the use of torture but certainly under the decision and the same decision the court does conclude that cat what are the countries conditions from those own i do think in this case cap provides nothing more than withholding because as a petition or otherwise is eligible for withholding i do believe that this case most likely would require a finding that he's not eligible for a cat in the same way that it would repressive regime he initially denied having any fear of reprisal for sending the correspondence but moments later he said that he did have a little bit of fear and it seemed odd to the immigration judge that quinn supposedly sent these letters in response to the beating of elderly neighbor who endured that beating because she had practice following gun herself now it's going to seem like a small and minor point but it goes to the question of whether the petitioner actually did send the letters in short these letters were sent by a person to a type of regime that he knew first hand how they respond to people who hold different views or who dissent from the party line and yet he sent them with no fear and if you add that lack of fear to the fact that the letters contained no information about the neighbor whose beating supposedly spurred the desire to send the letters and that the letters didn't have any personal information with regard to the petitioner nor did they even have any information about five of them going in products some real doubts in the immigration judges min these documents were sent in the first place now we also have moving on to the freighter the immigration judge had some doubts that a chinese government official would be serving openly on board a panamanian stands in my mind is the chinese portion of the crew belief i can't be a hundred percent on the out of how many but it i think the thing that struck the immigration judge was that we have a chinese government official operating openly in this and apparently according to somebody in charge of the chinese people there who called who he called the commissaire for who was somebody in charge of their political oil well apparently this person had so much power on board the vessel that they were supposedly able to order the physician to poison the  and explain you know i don't know how this power gets to a person that they can tell the ship's doctor who's under the command of the skipper of the vessel that you should be going poisoning one of the people on board was he chinese is not exactly clear who it was or what his nationality envelope and look at the document the document had fold lines on it that didn't possibly fit into the envelope provided the immigration judge said on the record explaining that to me it's at page three ninety six of the record running through page four hundred  explain why there were no folds that correspond to this particular envelope fisher said well i placed it between two the pages of a book and pressed it like common sense of the immigration judge made me pretty clear in his decision would say then you would still be able to may not be consistency and my guess would be the speculation of an immigration judge in which case it's not enough you're out of united probably i have to disagree on that and i mean we can call everything that the immigration judge said with respect to legal holdings really offers nothing new a judge can speculate that's been around for a long time before show a judge must give specific and cogent reasons that's been along for him around for a long time before show a judge to not call for credit for corroborating documents from a foreign land that might be difficult for the alien to get those were the basic reasons why the immigration judge decision that i was rejected those rules have existed long before a lot of emphasis is put on  job it really doesn't offer anything new from a factual standpoint as you admitted yourself in the outset of my opponents argue the facts don't even seem very similar so i'm not exactly sure where jeff how controls or where shout offers anything completely and totally new to the analysis except in this fact with respect to the cap claim where a person who offers the same or less support for the following going movement doesn't seem to be in appear to be blossoming in some respects until he's found reading the following gong book prior to their arriving in japan from that point on the relationship begins to deteriorate where there's more and mr quinn is demoted he is punished sends out on a crane to scrape by star pains or something along those lines during wintery weather he begins to be poisoned he's denied shore leave when the vessel reaches he can't take the liberty call in japan but then by the time we get to the united states i have a hard time address the issue of the commissar again there was time that developed in between this time on the boat and again they did develop a personal relationship and so it's pure speculation speculation to think what the commissar would would have not have done that elapsed between japan and the u s but clearly it was as you know a good amount of time before that happened and again and once again there is no testimony as to whether or not the commissar knew that petitioner was taking these materials off the books i think that's all you're honest thank you very much