because mr jenkins hit the officer and ran away at that point no reasonable thought at the point where it jenkins is asked to leave the car yes your honor so the government makes much and i think you do too in your brief of the so called aggregate knowledge doctrine yes but why does that even matter at the time that jenkins is asked to leave the car that's when the stop takes place neither officer has any information unless i'm mistaken to link the people in the parking lot to the information that officer merchant had about some prior incident on a highway that's correct certainly at that point neither of them had information they didn't write they did have information that a load was an observation that an individual who had been stopped seemed nervous is not a whole lot farther than being stopped for just taking a drug off ants you know that kind of observation is very subjective and probably could be said about most people who are stopped so haven't we already kind of established to pursue a rule with regard to stops in connection with drugs i don't think so your honor i think that nervousness  is subjective and i agree it's not a whole lot more but it is something more than just especially and nervousness could give rise to a fear on the part of the police that well drug dealer now is acting nervousness know so it's right at the beginning of that had anything to the suspicion that jenkins might be armed was there any indication that the people who merchant had heard about were armed simply no indication whatsoever and i think that's significant as well the information merchants in the informant about these two people be in blue drug dealing but no mention of arms the stop down in on because there were other traces discovered after he struck after he was arrested and there was a search incident that arrest so one could say that the his striking of officer hoffman and the events that followed were divorced from what had happened earlier in traditional stop and buy and frisk except that everything that follows from the wrists is following from the discovery of that the court has not gone so far as to eliminate the second terry issue and drug cases dates from one nine hundred eighty seven is there are more recent case that again says that drug cases alone thank you counsel you reserved two minutes you agree that the stop has taken place at that point right yes i believe it actually is before he's asked to get out of the car you can before on it so at that point merchant does not know who jenkins is they haven't asked for his name are you saying that if you see some possibly suspicious activity that for the sake of this argument will say is not enough in itself to justify a stop and anyone in the state has ever been accused of drug dealing or an informant has ever told you that com this city is a shipment of drugs that there's reason to stop these people on the on the theory that they might be those those folks who are coming to the state with drugs that that's not the you know i  were going to do some kind of drug deal in that place lots of people were told did drug deals in that place so why would anyone think if they saw someone coming into the parking lot that they were  know it seems to me that it's one thing to argue that that's just in that location that's suspicious already by just understand what links drug activity possible drug activity people driving around in suspicious ways with informant information that there's going to be a drug drug load coming to that city i mean vermont is a small state it's not that small that anybody that you know these must be the guys because we have no drug dealers here except the people who are driving in from new york i was  unspoken actions of their partners at their way and when officer merchant identifies the individual by name with a clear showing of shock a name he knows from prior traffic stop involving dangerous no but i think the he would have a much better argument if the officers had arrested him take him downtown on the strength of having found a horrid object in this risk and then they later conduct whatever search it's hard to imagine imagine that of the officers would even be found negligent unlike the warren scenario and strife in this case strikes me as even stronger you could imagine officers stopping people at random on the theory that maybe they'll have a warrant i wouldn't think that officers are stopping people handed you're not suggesting that he could be successfully prosecuted because the officer said i found a horrid object in his pocket for drugs because the i've said i found a hard object in his pants and i  suspected it was contraband and if you push me on it i'd say the contraband was drugs that wouldn't get you get a prosecution anywhere well certainly that's true but the same could be true even after the contraband is the police station if it's lost at that point he can't be prosecuted because if we carry this the government's argument to its logical conclusion they don't know what they've seized until it's been tested several months later and that's why they haven't seized anything at the time  that he assaults the officer and runs away well if identified a suspicious object what they have seized wouldn't you have a pretty decent argument if they that now ok so they find this object and they think gee we're not going to take his pants down in the public street so we're going to take him to the station house at that point he's under arrest wouldn't you argue that yes he and is that based on probable cause because there's an unidentified object in his pants wouldn't you be  arguing that that was not a good basis for an arrest because they don't know what that is it could be anything i think he suspects there it's in our contacts the description of it and he fits the description of crack cocaine it's a hard round object it's located in a place where typically if we're not carrying innocent things yes i mean the exact location is between the scrotum in the anus that is a very specific location that is known for body packing so he has a very high suspicion a very they at that point strongly believe in with good basis i would say they have oz at that basis of for the arrest they have seized him they haven't taken the drugs from him yet because they're going to do that station but it's the same thing