hi everybody i'm ed baker and i'm proud to be your host producer on the addiction recovery channel otherwise known as arc for those of you just tuning in for the first time arc is a show that's been designed and is devoted actually to raising the public consciousness regarding the substance use disorder and this brain disease that we call the call addiction the purpose of the show really is to create compassion to create empathy so that this particular population can get the kinds of medicals psychotherapeutic and support services that they need in order to live healthy and productive lives it's my great pleasure and honor today to host my guest thomas j donovan otherwise known as t j our state's current attorney general welcome to the show t j thank you for being here absolutely i'd like to start with a couple of facts one fact being that t j is the twenty sixth attorney general here in vermont he was elected almost exactly one year ago in the ember of two thousand and sixteen is well into his first year of a two year term he's one of four democratic attorneys general in the history of vermont and he comes to the biz ition following a ten year history as state's attorney for a kitten in county during which he had a distinguished career one of his most outstanding accomplishments was the development of the rapid intervention community court which is a special project a very progressive project to deal with people who have committed nonviolent crimes that were in fact driven either by mental health or substance use disorders this is a very progressive program and i guess that's really what drives my first question  j what do you think it is about your progressive philosophy and your worldview when it comes to these particular populations that resonates so deeply and so widely public schools graduate from public schools and that was a great benefit to me because it exposed me to a lot of different folks and when you and having that sense of belonging to something bigger than yourself is i don't think people realize how powerful that is and i would buy had it and so when i became state's attorney and frankly when i was a you know a deputy prosecutor i dealt with a lot of folks who were involved in the criminal justice system that i knew i grew up here  knew them if i didn't know them i certainly knew somebody who knew them or i knew i knew where they were from and my experience of having their own up and you know gauged in much those same formative experiences that they did in some point in time are past that diverted they didn't divert because i was better they didn't divert because i was special they probably diverted for whole set of complex reasons one being an opportunity to resources three role models if you will all of that frankly i hadn't really looking back i know others didn't and so when you see folks in the troll justice system that you grew up with they you knew you know they're not bad people and then on top of that to have insight  twenty years after the fact ten years after the fact of that a lot of these folks didn't have the resources came out of some pretty tough backgrounds didn't have the opportunities i had i just don't think they should have been punished  severely or as hard as harshly as many of them were and in my opinion we've marginalized a whole subset of our population in the name of public safety mostly the poor and it hasn't worked and then you add on these issues of addiction you add on these issues of mental health and you know maybe even a perfect storm and so for me i just felt strongly about believing in people who i grew up  different it just happened to be a matter of circumstance to be perfectly blunt about it yeah and that's that's that's really clear and that would be the perfect reason why people would resonate with you so deeply because it's so clear that you're one of us y one of them and your piece about people not being bad you know a lot of times people or seen as being bad or criminal when their behavior really is a symptom of something that runs a little bit deeper so i can i can feel your connection to all vermonters it's palpable that having said that then you know i'd like to like to know what your feelings are about this president  crisis here in vermont receiving it in every county on every street corner every day what do you what are your feelings about that i know that you were instrumental in crafting legislation the good samaritan common in vermont were what are your feelings about what's happening today well again you know this comes down to saving people's lives and i think it again understanding and reinforcing that you know people who are addicted to  safety very simple for me our job is to do everything we can to save people's lives so i do believe all first responders including all police should carry no locks on frustrating i talk to folks people who are on the front lines who get frustrated because they say hey i was there last week and i administered no locks and this person's life was saved and now i'm come back a second time and now i'm coming back a third time and there degree of frustration and i recognize and i knowledge that frustration from people in the front line particularly those first responders but in spite of that front frustration we have to understand that number one we  the work and we have to value the work our first responders do they should be adequate adequately compensated they should be protected and their families should be taken care of because they put themselves in harm's way but we can't lose sight of the fact that the job is to save people's lives and i do think more talking about an overdose it shouldn't be you know you talk about the good samaritan for me it's not about oh this was really kind of the basis of the law that if we focus of we shift the focus and i think this is symbolic of what's going on in the criminal justice system and a systems level if we shift the focus from say for getting people in  that they're going to get in trouble that they perhaps gave their friend some drugs that they're now oh dean on and they don't call nine one one they flee they run they're scared they don't want to get in trouble in the message that we wanted to send was we're not condoning drug use or dispensing drugs and so we're condoning overset what the message was this is about saving a life so you know we can figure out kind of the responsibility afterwards but job number one is to save people's lives every life has potential that's what we should be focused on and i think if we remember that that should guide us in sound public policy to continue to reform our criminal justice system i think we we've done a lot of good work in vermont we've got more work to do you know we look at this issue of addiction and we get angry with people and i know we're it's frustrating i know that but that's not a reason to incarcerate and to punish were arranging upset with them they're not they're not necessarily a threat to us and so as you know this is complicated because you talk to somebody w car frustrating and that's not a game condoning criminal acts it sent my share of folks to jail when i thought it was appropriate for public safety purposes but i think if we can create a system that is based on public health where we can use science and get away from this kind of arbitrariness of the criminal justice system to inform our judgment about who is truly a threat to us let's fin the public safety comes first but who's sick who needs help and then to make sure that we have the assets in the community which which frankly we don't to get him into treatment i was out of an event last night  a heartbreaking story from a mother whose child was suffers from from mental illness depression and  seem to be suicidal and this mom talked about being at the hospital all day and having no beds in the community in which her child  to this feeling of the absolute helplessness to protect her child we don't understand we got an obligation here to build that infrastructure when we talk what a safe m as they are which is sick and i am not sure we've achieved that because i think you and i both would agree that stigma still attaches to those  who are in recovery those who are actively using and those who are mentally ill and often times they're all wrapped in to gather so we have more work to do absolutely loud and clear the great very very model law makers the general public people seem to be marshalling behind this i idea of addiction as a disease trying to speak in positive terms we use message is loud and clear i have no locks on in my in my car by the way i went to a local drugstore come myself a nasal kit in just in case i want to be ready to save a life you know you mentioned people sometimes having to be revived multiple times and the general public really doesn't understand that that is proof positive that this is a powerful brain disease this is a symptom  which brings us to dimension that that crime is also associated with with addiction and it is it's one of the symptoms symptomatic behavior what about people who there's a little bit of attention or a lot of attention being placed on people who are incarcerated for committing crimes but have substance use disorder or specifically opioid disorder you know what about them well i want to answer that question i just want to first follow up on your point about people who are so sick that they know they may they go back in use again knowing that they'll get sick and even die talking to folks who done it you're absolutely right they talk about how desperate they are how sick they are and how much they need that fix that snorting it doesn't do it you know passing judgment how can you do that you know for me riposte is that and he didn't really reinforces the point that they're just so sick and desperate it's not a rational decision at all folks who are in jail who suffer from addiction number one i struggle with the idea that folks should be in jail who are in there as a result of their addiction and this is our next to it to excuse personal responsibility but i think we're real serious we need to make sure that we have again the assets in the community inpatient rehab no waiting lists and we do the hub and spokes is a great model it's a great model we need to do more but if you're in jail you're outside you are you know if people are and here's the thing about jail status all the time the folks see this as a prosecutor here's the thing about jail they're going to get out  vast majority of people in jail are going to get out and it's in our collective best interest as a community to make sure that people who are incarcerated have a successful reentry back into our community that's what's in the interest of public safety talk about housing education talk about jobs none of that matters unless they're healthy because you know if somebody is is using they're not making those rational decisions their risk to themselves there was to the community so i do think that we should have medically assisted treatment available to folks in jail look the department of corrections has done a good thing  they're extending the use to one hundred twenty days frankly i think we should be looking at it in my understanding that the policy is that you have to be currently in treatment on the outside in order to be the truman continued while you're incarcerated and that's fine i support that also then we should consider starting treatment for people in jail i think jail can have a powerful effect on people  to really do some self examination and perhaps that's an opportunity for people say i'm ready i'm ready to make a change they may come to that conclusion but unless the services of the medicine is there  you know and so we're going to continue to to push push the argument to expand the use of treatment and we have to continue to  make the argument that prevention is really i think the game changer in this debate that i don't think we talk enough about you know when we talk about babies being born overheated you know we should be outraged in this state we should be to somebody's home message or wellness a message of health prenatal care you get a good healthy baby a good healthy mom and i think the national studies where these programs do of adverse childhood experiences and and how important those early years are to brain development and how important they are when you're drawn up in a in a family where you have this stress where there is that issue addiction where there's that issue of perhaps domestic violence or that issue of just poverty where you don't know if you're going to eat or not going to be safe and i think it's you know the scien pretty clear that that stress becomes toxic on that child and the development of the of their brain leads to higher rates of mental health issues later in life higher rates of addiction actually lowers life expectancy absolutely all on issues that happen in those early years in order three zero to five we need to be making investments in those homes now that's the game changer i couldn't i couldn't agree with you more and it's so refreshing to hear that you think way the genes directs cell development in organs such as the brain and that's where the impulsivity and adolescence is can be a result of the brain's not developing along healthy lines one of the impulsive decisions being handling stress or handling tension or handling problems by taking corrective chemicals you know the other thing that i hear you children that need to live differently that the demand for drugs needs to change and the way we do that is helping children to learn how to grow up and make healthy decisions and have the resources available to them to enjoy life absolutely i mean it is listen it's about the next generation and it's about kids and that's why put the prevention is so important you got to have the resources and you know you're right about multigenerational and i think we got to be honest about it you know we had a political crisis to the side and again you know being being that prosecutor in court over ten years and frankly seen generations prosecuting generations of families you know you got to ask yourself the question why you know i don't think  this other part you talk about resiliency i'm a big believer in the and the power of positive relationships whether it's you know with your own parents or with others outside of your family  to overcome adversity i was lucky as i said there was nothing no nothing great about me growing up but i was surrounded  certainly by a family but also by a larger extended family and even even even a larger community you know a lot of second chances like a lot of second chances by a lot of people and that made all the difference in the world to me and that's that's a powerful thing when you think about that and that's that's that's never left me i do know i do see that in you and i've heard a little bit about you and i i  think i've been told that you get your sense of justice from your dad and your passion from your mom you know you know you know my dad was an incredible influence on my life  was a was a sole practitioner i was a lawyer and worked on the top of college street and you know what i would say is was a street lawyer in the sense of take anybody that walked in off the street yeah about the underdog somebody was down on the lot like my father was for it was it was just i think by instinct in this sense of of empathy and compassion and he he loved and he was able to find i think the humor in it all which is a special treat when you think about it  matter how bad things are if you're able to find the humor in it that's a pretty powerful defense mechanism that ability to laugh that that ability to overcome the ability to i just he had a he knew who we was and i think he was comfortable with who we was and he was a pretty quiet guy it was not a fancy guy willingness to advocate and somebody to be half one frankly nobody had anybody advocate for him and just a willingness to believe in people and that willingness to believe in people i've really tried to emulate tried to bring him into the work i do you know because of my in my system or i should say the criminal justice system or the legal system and so that of a serial system and i tend to believe and i think i get this from my father certainly get it from drawing up in this community i believe most people are good people we all make life keep things in perspective keep them balanced and this willingness to overcome we don't have much but we had everything we needed and there was a lot of laughter  because that ability to find the humor in the absurdity of life sometimes you know the good in the bad the painful is pretty powerful stuff w she again another person who is always going to choose the underdog and will certainly advocate on their behalf and i think both my parents  and again they were there they were extraordinary to us but they were ordinary folks yeah but the message is you know we didn't have fancy titles didn't were what their station in life was that's the message that i got from my parents that message of equality and really the value of everybody and it wasn't sat down and wasn't without our struggles you know but i think what i came away from in my childhood was seen both my parents you know and it never mattered about it i mean i can it doesn't matter about you know what position i  or what i may have or may not have achieved politically to my family including my my siblings doesn't matter and they don't remind me of that of healthy thing they think and you obviously bring all those qualities and all those views toward life into your position as our attorney general and i want to i want to thank you for that tha is refreshing that is genuine that is hopeful that's what reverberates with people so thank you for your leadership only to you in closing in closing i would like to ask you to tell our viewing audience especially the people out there with substance use his order what do you want to tell them well you know we care about you and we hear you and that we believe in you and that there is hope for a better tomorrow that shame and stigma needs to be put to the side that this is hard work but the community supports you our state supports you or a better state with you in it being productive law abiding sober and that we want to work with the it to make sure great people who have been sidelined as a result of this addiction through such potential absolutely we need to we need to give people second chances absolutely we need to get people back in the game and let them career let them innovate let them up with the next best idea based on their skill based on their desires and based on their own ideas that's the value of vermont that's the value of vermonters and we've got to give people the opportunity to get a fair shot because i know people can do it thank you thank you if you can i just want to saying in closing that you've you've heard attorney general donovan today we know how difficult it is for you we do not think this is