issue in this case mr benjamin is a forty six year old native and citizen of indonesia he is an indigenous internation and a muslim his wife annabel rodriguez  forty nine year old native and citizen of venezuela and a catholic and as i just noted they have three minor children including two daughters and one son mr benjamin states two grounds first he claims membership in a particular social group that is muslims married to roman catholics in indonesia and second he claims the humanitarian exception based on the unfair treatment of his then as well in catholic life by his stepmother and other in laws because of her religion and the young consented to circumcision of their then infant daughter in indonesia at the behest of mr benjamin's stepmother further mr benjamin argues that yes no assurance of a safe haven in the third country of venezuela should the family be removed in fact in the immigration judges removal orders mr benjamin is ordered removed for him to receive asylum in the united states and quote that's in a section to await a two capital i because a family separation may occur and of course it would not be in the public interest to create the possibility of causing this family separation it is it is true isn't it counsel that this is only his application and others are derivative of it that's right judge therefore whether the families are at the right safe haven or not is really an end summary question if he isn't entitle to asylum in the first place then we wouldn't even need to get there correct well we to we don't even have to get to that question if we really look at this we also use that your honor as a discretionary factor in favor of asylum as a mitigating or humanitarian factor to offset the adverse factor of the  judgment june of course that's taken into account when the judge makes the assessment on a salamander's discretionary factors the adverse factors and many gaining are favorable factors  so i wanted to bring this point again because it is something that has utility in more than one context both safe haven and then the discretionary context explain you know i find it sad t humanitarian exception and what is the evidence well it would in effect over of the finding of the immigration judge on that one well for one thing see in the nation family card that it's in the record it doesn't even mention this rodriguez as mr benjamin spouse that's the term record pages one forty three one forty three  included in the card because quote she is not a muslim and she has none and you need at a minimum we believe that she's in the car because of her religion nationality may also play a part but we would cite the marrying and officially registering their marriage as independent observers note has become increasingly difficult to obtain official recognition for interfaith marriages between muslims and non muslims and the quote he also said we did cite matter c y z that was recently overturned by the attorney general however our case is also based on humanitarian humanitarian exception matter chen and in this court daughter in addition to the fact that his wife had to suffer repeated indignities in that country but again the atmosphere is created by the government the government doesn't usually there's an atmosphere that's created by the government fact he doesn't take any action with the authorities there's no way that by the authorities to what happened is that our president well  government is either on string or is turning their head to this action which is what we've got to suggest it seems that one has to have some evidence the government knows about it a c section i don't remember your honor to be candid with you whether it was a doctor or a nurse i believe there's something on the record that i can't recall at this moment at that time the government didn't finder could fail to found in his favor mr pena specifically did not prove carry his burden of proving that he suffered persecution in indonesia on account of his being married to a catholic spouse  quote from the immigration judge whose finding the board of held the record simply shows that as mr pena harmon himself acknowledged other quote other than having his feelings hurt by having his friend shun him and having difficulty with his family he has of mutilation is that any mutilation it still does not support the claim here because the court really needs to keep in mind that the daughter and he says not seeking asylum there claims are completely derivative the family members claims are completely driven and i asked counsel a question  opposing her circumcision after the fact and there was absolutely no evidence to support that kind of a claim of persecution and yes it was a procedural question could the daughter now  is there any government involvement or it's just the mere fact of it that's my one question and then the second is in the briefing trying to distinguish between distance or tribal and she am i think that to be kind of a a catholic his stepmother wanted that procedure to be done based on her muslim belief and muslim practice now we know something we have the case where the people from somalia were able to  circumcised just after she was born and not afterwards unquote that's it page ninety six of the administrative record in other words and he's just too old to be circumcised now with the family went back to tunisia secondly i think there's another important point and that to have any for any subsequent country records entered into the record based on a motion motion to reopen or anything of that nature i would also like to point out that the humanitarian exception so called that mr ryan referred to a number of times for the reasons that are discussed in some of the twenty letters that simply is not at issue in this case because there is no factual predicate for an application of that exception namely that the applicant had suffered extremely severe and some some form of very heightened past first persecution in his home country the facts in this case certainly have no relationship to i'll just go to the humanitarian exception again matter most of the injuries orrible injuries in a case which suffered the athens father during the cultural revolution so we have a family member who was severely injured in that case and that's why we bring an end to the context of this case because we also have a family member who was we believe persecuted we cited the mohammed case in our brief also as a part of our core argument related to the humanitarian exception and i might just say too that these arguments run together that is the social group argument and also the humanitarian exception are human they can be blended together as well there and for the questions thank you very much