good morning and a whole mucky halt to all out there this is the first meeting committee meeting of the new year january fourth two thousand and sixteen and i want to wish everyone a happy healthy and prosperous new year all my members that  be calling because he was the first agenda item and i wanted to get started i was hoping he'd be there to at least start us off but any help with that all being said we have a number of items that we would like to cover today and we have to open up public testimony so i will start in the gallery we have one testifier at this time and happy new year to miss robins she's here again and thank you for being back new year and hopefully new ideas rosemary robbins concerned citizen will be testifying again the rules over all the same as last year dream when is that red light will come want to yellow it two and a half in red light will come on  thanks to the good work that has been done this morning i'd like to start out with a policy an intergovernmental affairs committee item number forty the description and that is that the about the peak cards we heard a lot about this earlier last year from another county and the state of hawaii and the behavior that was involved in that misuse of the card and then of that counties administration procedures related to using those cards using them and then how does the processing of those go so i brought i went up to the seventh floor and i got the binder twenty one like i mentioned is how it's processed and so the only thing that was in that binder was a collection of papers not numbered i don't know what happens to best practices in those but if you're going to use the document they need to be numbered so that we know that all pages so they are and there's no chance of any of that being lost or otherwise not available but anyway here it is and he had identified that but after having her request from both may and may twenty ninth and june sixteenth of twenty fifteen there was this collection of papers in there that said purchasing cards speak cards purchase orders policy and into governmental affairs committee so there was a committee that worked on this and like i say i'm i'm concerned about the fact the papers were not numbered in there but anyway one of the papers that i did get talks about why it's worth it to have those on it identifies two two dots here one is that there of pages that would have been in this report so that's something that should be pretty easy to correct the use of those cards is very scary recall that what happened another island  here those cards were used to shop which would you sum up in one sentence or less ok even though there are three of these i'm sorry there are three of these items forty forty to make sure that we are in forty one which is purchase orders so if you would address that particular item i would appreciate it thank you my dear ok is that going to be helpful for you to say what purchase orders are when they were together clarification that's another one that would be helpful so hopefully as can be helpful for people listening to this to thank you for doing that thank you ok so anyway the last of the items that i had signed up for was council approval of intergovernmental agreements and this is asking i've got it highlighted here the purpose of the proposed bill has to require the mayor to obtain council approval prior to before entering into any intergovernmental agreement with regard to whether financial obligation on the part of the county is being created just to ensure appropriate reviews and oversi scene no one else wanted to testify in the gallery i will check with my district offices is there anyone wishing to testify indicated on your on the apple applicant application was very active in the community involved with several how i am groups as well as church and youth groups and was really very fortunate to have someone of this caliber serving potentially serving o hearing on then i will make my recommendation recommendation if there is no more further discussion the chair will entertain a motion to adopt a proposed resolution entitled relating to the appointment thank you for offering your services as you did mr bariloche many times it's very very difficult to get members to join in and they all have their their needs in and we understand that so thank you very much for your staff and one five six from my so relating to the county of my always purchases purchasing cards better known as people remember this was really to have an update and a since the last time we spoke to mr king which was a kickoff meeting i guess they called it about a week ago and so we're preparing the information for them for their audit so that's that's what's going on so we are still in the process of the audit itself yet it's going to start the project schedule that scott kind of sheena gave me looks like they're going to work from now until the end of march report and and then get the report on done by end of june by when june thirtieth ok very good members any questions for mr king and or our the initial focus is on purchasing cards i'm not sure if they're going to go beyond that or whatever has asked mr kind of the purchase orders is not a necessary part of the scope as you under saddam not on the initial their initial concerns we've had in as well as our community through media reporting so is there any thing you could tell us regarding the status of those issues that this thing and i just mean because there a sense out there that white collar crime this county turns its cheek and i need to know that we comply with the laws and we will prosecute according to the law applicable we still come here and i think mr khushi in his own comment legally very clear to me i understood what he's saying and i appreciate that there still ongoing investigative review to see if there is one wrongdoing and if it is then appropriate action to be taken so i'm satisfied with his response that distinction thank you thank you  and i'm glad you brought that up because i was if no one else was to ask the same similar question but i understood because of the loop pending litigation and no finalization of it it's very difficult they cannot address it at this point in time and we counties do reflect upon us also you know even if it is not our county people often make those kinds of remarks you know i've had it come to me and she say mike let's go have dinner on your p card you know this and i think offense to that but then i understand they're doing in a joking manner and you just try to you know just let it be and just move on but we will first of all today was to receive where we were with the audience and i guess and i thank you for that clarification so hopefully by june we will have that audit completed  one of the things we always had was an audit audit process kind of an audit process where we take all of the transaction data and put it into the excel spreadsheet and then we can search on the vendor the vendors we can search on the by the card holder and what their activity is we can search by amounts and so forth and in that we can we can look for possibilities sometimes parceling is is it's a real gray area because sometimes people had they'll go to the same place three times in a day for completely legitimate reasons sometimes not  you know one of the things i know there's a lot of a lot of buzz going around about jokes about the p card and stuff but i think my response would be to that is that there's no there's been lots of problems in various jurisdictions in the feds actually started this way back so way back in the in the ninety's the feds were using p cards and they were they had problems but i have never been aware of a situation where somebody discontinued their peak arctic region because of problems because the the cost advantages of the transaction cost advantages are overwhelming to get as compared to any potential abuse and so i think office we spend our money and if he gets approved we get reimbursed and if it's doesn't qualify for embarrassment and we we need it yes actually accounts the division does have a reimbursement program called request for payment  thing and there's they have there's a form you fill out and that's exactly the process and they've had that forever they're actually trying to make a concerted effort to discontinue that because it's kind of a parallel procurement process it's something that i don't see it's something that goes to accounts and it's always an after the fact thing it's just like the p card program it's after the fact and i guess your your point but my point is your point is that remember it will get reimbursed only if it's valid describe yeah and so  yeah we pretty much we pretty much the reimburse we pretty much reimburse everything that happens on because they don't want to put the employee out on something and so it's it becomes an employee judgment issue and i'm not sure it's appropriate to have an employee who may or may not be aware of what their limits are to be able to judge judge their expenditures and so it's a kid for the cash and you could go to costco and buy cases of champagne or whatever the p card is limited is restricted by merchant category codes so so at least it's it's and within the it's within certain categories of things that they're supposed to be behind that's the first thing and second thing the supervisors supposed to be watching and watching that also watching expenditures and there's limits here as a provides is made aware on a car they would be inefficient for him to for the mechanic to have to wait for the supervisor to get back to launch always to go order apart from united auto parts so there is some discretion that has to be in play there but basically at this time we cannot throw this committee that we have just one all of see everybody part we have just run over what we have one is overall policy in the finance department for the forward to the audits finding exactly the same crime and i think this is widely audit this is going to be pivotal for for the decision making on by the body and and the administration i believe that sometimes different departments have different procedures and this is what i've been told no how those procedures are monitored is another issue so with that being said this was more of an overview of to see where we were and to get an idea of when this audit would come forward so that this committee and the rest of the company would have a better understanding and if changes are needed changes should be immediately so that no further action on no further ability of someone taking advantage of the situation again mr king is indicated we save a lot by having the cards however if the abuse is agreed just then maybe it may not be that great an idea i don't know until i see  the audit mr king i will not comment in that respect for the questions mr cause did you have something i thought you'd reach your hand i apologize and when else have any more questions mr carroll any the county's procedures on purchase orders and that's a different subject but i thought it was a subject that needs to be looked at and if this is not covered by the audit which i hope it is mr king but if it is not i w  where there is a need indicated in then there's funny funding available and the people fill out a requisition form the people fill out a requisition form and then it goes to their supervisor sometimes it goes to the department head depending on their internal policies for approval and then it comes to purchase scene and we look at it and it goes if it gets approved we approve it  dollars multiple quotes aren't required for over a thousand dollars between eight thousand dollars and five thousand dollars three verbal quotes are required and for over five thousand three written quotes are required if that's available of course on maui and on line nine molik especially there's very limited sources in a lot of cases so we have a form which the users provide documentation for procurements over a thousand and that form is if they can't get three quotes they describe why they can't and then we try to we will approve it if it does it seems reasonable and that's that's basically it that goes up to twenty five your process to stamp the supervisor whoever that he was she may be reviews all the beads that were achieved in you should be three bids received for any major purchase is that confidence in the general operating procedures that we have set up i just my only concern chairman and again i find it interesting on the on the report that shows the cost of known fraud to maui county they currently say at less than twenty thousand dollars since inception of the program i guess for some of us that we would say that's a good imo it's it's to a level financial level that is not so i would see earth shattering for us but the fact is obviously we've had employees that was willing to cheat  at least almost twenty thousand dollars worth of fraud in this that's been shared with us so sane that i think we just need to continue to keep reviews of the procedures i think they should be sample testino of employees that have certain additional financial leeway in this area and for me chairman again i would be happy to hear how the auditors want to approach this because i understand it's two different ways of purchasing right and this is basically needs to happen before you approve it before you purchase we purchase before approve call and try to get this many quotes as you can within the time the emergency preparing to process so we have a process for that and a lot of it we give out emergency purchase orders even if it's not that kind of a situation even if it's really like a lack of planning situation this morning again it is my hope that the audit will not only cover because but maybe even getting to the area of purchase orders because i think this is this is even though parcels there are different items they work hand  hand in a lot of the day to day activities that this county provides as far as equipment and as well as other services that we need and i think it's important that the public have the utmost confidence that what we do is above board the purpose of this bill was to require the mayor to obtain council approval prior to entering into any intergovernmental agreement with out guard to where there has financial obligations on the part of the county is being created or to ensure appropriate review it oversight of such agreements councilmen of karma can you please give us a little background on what this past troubles on into government agreements have been and why you have brought this forward mr all come on chairman thank you i would say to my use a service independent which who or who sits in the main chair in the department of cooperation council we've had different interpretations regarding the obligation component so for me one way you know for me chairman this times when after a mere enters into agreement we find that there is some financial considerations tied to that eventually  one way is and that a current system was put into the code if a financial obligation does occur in the future from a non council approval agreement that the  is that everything comes before us before it gets committed by the executive on behalf of this county is another way or i would say chairman i'm open to other options again like the previous items where depending on someone's interpretation of what is this obligation under the current what it's stated i think we need to bring some basic understanding of what it is we already obligations and that's why i bring it up to me i think you know one of the things that in the past maybe from the sixty's or not it wasn't that to this level that we currently are in so i would say something that i think we should consider especially if we can bring clarity to avoid different interpretations of the same freeze she is my understand your department has some concerns about the bill as it's written and so with that being said would you put those concerns forward if you would like to and that we when we get into the discussion and maybe we've covered some of the ordinance we've considered our office as considered taking the position that in the budget session the budget bill is an ordinance so if any kind of agreement or a appropriation is in the budget it is approved by a budget ordinance so therefore we don't have to come back again more specifically you've been seeing a lot of it's a governmental agreement within the for our state funded loan is what it departments or department so that makes it a little clearer but in any event if there's a line item approving something to do with a third party government ent through example is like civil defense complex all the counties get together with the state and us you know we will agree in case of an emergency we would do this is there's no set forth financial obligation but if the thing happens it me but at this point in time because it's such an iffy we feel beefy in a case of emergency we say go insane off because you might rice if you want to do it that way but i guess i agree there is some inconsistency throughout the years as to what constitutes a financial a good obligation and if if he needs these clarity fine and we'll do it through this product clarification and some concerns i think we all share that i believe you are correct and many times things have been brought to our attention and there was nothing as far as financial obligations but you know there are things that sometimes come your leader comes down later to the years financial obligations i think that's what mr obama and many of us have concerns how do we justify and how do we determine that yeah so i'll let you go me so come again and says no to our economy but then my point is why is it in the document we've seen that many times mr chairman and so again we can be reassured by not so much a response to a member comment but right now pending for whatever reason we've had good relations with the state in terms of our agreements contracts and we've always said you know they always we want it didn't fit cation they wanted them to forgive should report government entities we cannot indemnify and we see we'll need them the fi you to the extent permitted by law the law says you can't let you come before the  major issue with high dollar impact i mean i'm i'm looking at a quarter at least a quarter billion dollars in my project i mean estimation projections cushy and after the committee i would be open to us continue to work on the bill and ask operation council if there is a version did they would like to submit for consideration because i think mr coo she brought up some very that and only then did i become aware of some of the challenges like you today and felt that this would be a good starting point and we need to continue to work on it like you see when we can get very specific on certain areas maybe this is where we want to head to so that there is very clear definition of what needs to come to us every time and there may be some that we can say no it's not that important i mean there is the probability of financial  liability or other liabilities with that particular agreement slim to none ok we can take that chance but what you say mr okama we need to continue to work on it and i think that's what i would like to endeavor so i would hear from the other committee members and then   us is the council would make the decision to approve or not approve we will still be dependent dependent on the cooperation council to help us with interpretation of the agreement so i can appreciate us looking more into this and see how i don't know if it's going to really satisfy us because some up like mr will come on mention some of the challenges we have with  our state government is beyond our understanding at times so i can appreciate the collaboration i guess with the cooperation council and and with our staff okama on most of the items he brought up my one concern would be you know if we if we did the bill as is and i think you mentioned it mr chair that you know there'd be a by the administration and an entity and corp council determines that there is no financial obligation according to the way the law reads now and then we find out later two or three years down the line that oh yeah there is some well i mean initially if you didn't see the agreement or review i don't approve it right you have nothing to do with it but it be if it came up and said right it turns out that there are financial obligations right then we were required by law to approve it and didn't so therefore is the agreement no and boy well in the end in that event in your example if in the future or for five years down the line obligation becomes apparent want to understand but something like that is very important if it turns out that there's a financial obligation are we responsible but energy a was in a state right now isn't that between the administration and energy not the state oh in ordinance which it is so therefore anything that in the budget as a line item doesn't need to come before us because it did become before us in the budget can i mean is that i don't know mr chair this would be a question to you mainly would you be willing to pull that out saying that where it says unless it's approved by ordinance other than the budget ordinance was everything was open w yes ok thank you thank you dear mr carrol bears looking into further and i would agree with your recommendation for deferral saying no more discussion i will close by saying that i want to thank first of all  you bring this forward i think many of us had these concerns for a long time and i just it's just a way of moving this forward and trying to get it where all of us are involved in the areas that we need to be without getting involved in everything you know so i think what's one of the biggest hang ups for me was when amy into government agreement that i think that was one of those that i kind of like bought that and then mr khushi when meeting with him when he covered these areas i go i think we need to discuss this further so that's what this was all about today and thank you i appreciate him you still come of what you brought forward and all of the comments i received from all of the other members of the crew she and i will you that we'll continue to work on it and bring something forward in the not too distant future for all of us to sit down and review and those members that are not here today if they have any ideas these forwarded to the committee staffs and we will look into it at that point so with no objections and no further discussion i will ask to defer this matter thank you very very much and i think that brings us to the conclusion of the day thank you very much for being here members i know this is the first meeting of the new two thousand and sixteen calendar year i appreciate it and i appreciate all of you being here i want to thank the public for being a part of it ms robinson again prosperous and productive new year i wish everyone well this meeting of the policy intergovernmental agreements intergovernmental policy committee is now it's here and