first vote will come on the price amendment on on vouchers and the clerk will call the roll and we recognize that members are still coming so we'll walk our way through the first roll and then we'll go at warp speed  chairman miller votes no mrs mccarthy votes no mr tierney mr davis of illinois mr sarbanes mr courtney mr courtney votes no mr bishop of utah mr bishop of utah other mr sarbanes votes no on the first vote ms clark votes no as well on the first about mr bishop voted aye correct on the legal vote yes now mr sarbanes on the second vote mr sarbanes is not recorded mr sarbanes votes now seventeen members about i and twenty six members vote no thank you mr mccain has a request mr chairman i'd like to withdraw my request for the recorded vote on the third  assists on who is a former senator in the pakistani parliament and president of the bar association and was very much involved in the restoration of the judiciary in our in the ongoing process for the restoration of the judiciary in pakistan and just completed a very long march with a half a million people pushing for the restoration of the judiciary in pakistan welcome to the committee thank you committee on education and labor reports a bill h r thirty two eighty nine to the house of representatives with an amendment in the nature of a substitute with the recommendation that the amendment be agreed to and the bill as amended to pass thirty two a nine in favor reported to the house and the chair notes for the record the presence of a quorum chair also ask unanimous consent that the staff be authorized to make all necessary technical and conforming changes to the bill h r thirty two eighty nine as reported by the committee today and it  thank all of the members for their participation and hope you have a wonderful fourth of july and we'll see you back after the break thank you  and gentlemen if we can we're going to proceed with today's hearing we do appreciate the patience of our guests the full committee had to complete action on education legislation that we began yesterday and concluded this morning so we thank you for your patience good morning ladies and gentlemen welcome to the subcommittee there is in all likelihood someone's going to go to apply for a job today and the employer is not going to tell him or her this but the employer is going to say you know i'm not confident with the way that person looks with the way he or she presents him or herself so i'm not going to hire the person in all likelihood someone today is being considered for a promotion or an opportunity in his or her job and behind closed doors an employer may well say you know this person makes a son convertable because of the way he or she looks or he or she presents him or herself under the present state of the law if that's the reason given to deny someone a job to fire them from a job they already have or to deny them a promotion or move up under federal law it is legal it is permissible to do that i will confess to you a bias from the outset that to me this makes no sense whatsoever i think if someone is the best code right or the software company they should get the job i think if someone is the best auto mechanic they should get the job i think if they'd be the best bank teller they should get the job the question of someone's orientation someone's presentation should be absolutely irrelevant to the consideration of whether they get the job or the promotion the purpose of this hearing is to explore the law in this area which i would start from the premises saying that it does permit these kind of denials to take place and whether that should change or not i think it should i think it should we're going to hear this morning from a number of witnesses will provided a varying number of perspectives on this question one of the elemental principles in american law we hope is merit that whether or not and is hired whether or not someone is promoted whether or not someone has economic opportunities is a function of how well they do their job or how well they would do their job and not a function of what i would call irrelevant prejudicial criteria i feel strongly that someone's presentation is an irrelevant criterion i think it has nothing to do with how well someone writes code or conducts bank transactions or fixes someone's car and i  day when the law will protect every person in that position and that he or she is able to go to work do as well as he or she can and be judged on performance at work and not on prejudice of any other decision making we're going to hear from a variety of witnesses this morning who will dress those concerns and we look forward to vigorously questioning from the members of the subcommittee as we move forward i would also note for the record that there is context for this hearing and that was this committee in the house is consideration of the employment nondiscrimination act in the fall of two thousand and seven it needs to be said it needs to be reminded that the bill that passed the house of representatives did not include protection for transgender people i believe it should and the purpose of this hearing is for those of us who believe that to make our case and for those who disagree to make there and for people to draw  intelligent and rational conclusion from that debate please in our work on the subcommittee to have the cooperation and colleagues status with my friend from minnesota mr klein who is the ranking member of the subcommittee for the minority side it is a pleasure working with him because he and i try to address all these issues on the basis of substance and merit to be fair in the way we approach these issues and i'm pleased that tradition continues today's hearing and i welcome into the hearing thank you mr chairman for those kind remarks and i want to thank you mr chairman for your flexibility in scheduling this hearing there was some issue about what day we could do it and i appreciate your plucks ability and today we could have more member participation i want to thank our witnesses certainly our colleagues in the first panel and the witnesses in the second panel looking forward to the testimony i think is a fair statement to say that all of us are committed to the principle that no employee should be subject discrimination but before we consider an act any new federal mandate we must first determine a few things as a new law necessary or evidence of this type of discrimination is occurring our current laws and appointed policies unable to protect employees we have numerous battles state laws and employer policies already on the books that help prevent discriminatory practices do we need yet another federal law that's part of what this hearing is about today i look forward to the testimony of a really distinguished panel of witnesses both panels of witnesses and i yield back the balance of my time with ask unanimous consent that my entire statement be included the record without objection and by without objection the opening statement of any member of the committee who wishes to include may as well the chairman the full committee mr miller is here i would ask if he would care to make it on these statements mr mckeon here also i would extend the same courtesy to mr mckeon should he be interested ok we're going to proceed with the first panel being two of our esteemed colleagues in the house represent barney frank who is chairman of the financial services committee an active member and so many issues he's devoted countless hours to the housing crisis facing this country today i know he's involved in a very important go she says with the senate as we speak on how to address that crisis i want to thank him for two things this morning one is his leadership in so many areas of american law and his good spirited approach to these issues in the middle of our days we sometimes need to laugh with each other not at each other and barney frank has a unique ability to help us see the stressful times then the second is obviously for his leadership on civil rights issues in general and these issues in particular many of us believe that mr frank is an inspiration for his work and we're honored that he has us here today represented baldwin has a rare skill in the congress and she's a great listener in a place where people love to talk and she's a good talker to a very good talker but i've very much enjoyed the fact that i've seen her interact in situations that are sometimes stressful and divisive and she always listens with respect and dignity to the other side of any question she's developed an outstanding legislative record in the areas of consumer protection environmental fairs civil rights education national defense policy and it's our honor to have her with us today as well so i would ask if our two colleagues would begin with opening statements i will tell you one thing the committee has this subcommittee has done as sort of an unofficial practice is that because we want to get to our lay witnesses as quickly as we can we open the panel any questions from our colleagues but we frankly i won't say we discourage questions to i will say hundreds and ranking member kline for inviting the two of us but inviting me to testify at this very historic hearing many of my colleagues have asked me about the phrase gender identity and why employment protections based on gender identity and expression ought to be included in any employment discrimination legislation this congress takes up and i'll do my best to answer any lingering questions and clarify what drives many in the l g b t community to demand an inclusive approach to eliminating discrimination in the workplace one that does not leave behind the smallest and most vulnerable part of our community as you may know gender identity is a person's internal sense of his or her gender in the vast majority of the population and individual's gender identity and his or her birth sex match but for a small minority of people gender identity and an and anatomical sex conflict a common way that many transgender people describe this feeling is to say something to the effect of being trapped in the wrong body gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same and transgender people may be heterosexual lesbian gay or bisexual there are thousands of transgender americans who leave lead incredibly successful stable lives their dedicated parents they contribute immeasurably to their communities and to their country i personally know transgender people who work in fields as diverse as defense contracting broadcasting community organizing and the legal profession and i could go on they have to transition successfully many with the full support of their employers despite the successes because an individual was born one sex and presents oneself to the world as another or in a way that other people may think is inconsistent with how a man or woman should prevent present themselves he or she may face many forms of discrimination hate crimes against transgender americans are trafficked lee common transgender people also face discrimination in the monday night tasks of the every day trying to find housing applying for credit or even seeing a doctor and of course the focus of today's hearing in trying to provide for themselves and their families some of you know that i practice law in a small general practice firm before i was elected to the wisconsin assembly on occasion i represented clients who were fired from jobs in violation of wisconsin's landmark one nine hundred eighty two nondiscrimination law that added sexual orientation to our state's anti discrimination statutes during that time i met a transgender woman who was who has left a lasting impression upon  me this woman had been fired from a management position at a large local employer when she announced to her boss that she intended to transition and because wisconsin's law gave her no legal recourse she faced an impossible situation and ended up moving to a different state i remember a time in my own life when i thought i had to choose between living my own life with truth and integrity about who i am as a lesbian or pursuing the career of my dreams in public service among the things that made me change my mind was wisconsin's nondiscrimination law that had passed only four years before i first ran for local office as an out lesbian the importance of nondiscrimination laws cannot be overstated substantively they provide real remedies and a chance to see justice symbolically they say to america judge your fellow citizen by their integrity character and talents not their sexual orientation or gender identity or race or religion for that matter symbolically these laws also say that irrational fear irrational hate have no place in our workplaces today thirty nine percent of americans live in areas explicitly banning discrimination based on gender identity and expression and at least three hundred major u s businesses now ban discrimination based on gender identity and expression corporate america and the american people are way ahead of the congress in acknowledging the basic truths we hold to be self evident that all of us are created equal and the laws of the land should reflect that equality it is high time that america declared discrimination based on gender and gender identity and expression to be unlawful mr chairman i wholeheartedly support your committee's efforts to do just that for the record i support like you an inclusive bill which ensures that hardworking americans cannot be denied job opportunities fired or otherwise discriminated against just because of their sexual orientation gender identity or gender expression all of us who have had the honor of working in this institution know that one of the greatest things about america is that it is not only a nation it is also an idea and our american dream propose promises that no matter where we start no matter who we are that if we work hard we will have the opportunity to advance this committee can help fulfill that promise thank you mr chairman thank you very much congressman baldwin for the incisive legislative record you the problems of trying to fit everything in and there are a lot of members who would have put this hearing let's be honest pretty low on the totem pole and it fact would have it would have been hard to find an excuse not to have this hearing and give us the opportunity to meet our responsibility confront something some people might pretend not to be here my colleagues give you a very good explanation of this if you will i have to say you get focused  when she said that people expresses just having a feeling of a trapped in the wrong body i was talking to the chairman the full committee the phrase having something trapped in the wrong body is how we often feel when i just like and goes to the first of all we should be very pretty overwhelming majority of legal term protection is a gender identity is not covered when you ban sexual orientation it simply isn't covered and frankly nobody who thinks it should be covered huge is that argument to me if you think it should be covered if there's any uncertainty let's put it that was put it this way whenever members of this body object to something on the grounds that it is redundant i am skeptical we are a perfection many of us lawyers where we're done she is part of the code here in congress i mean using a few extra words is really something that we object to so when people say they don't want to because it's redundant they mean i don't want to but i don't really want to tell you why i don't want it saving a principle that i think we all agree with that people should not be denied a chance to earn a living because of some essential element of their personality that's really relevant directly to them and causes no harm to anyone else  is sometimes it can be disruptive i have been i probably gay rights bill in one nine hundred seventy two unlike my colleague who was both younger and had to change people in wisconsin and she said because of that law she didn't have to face point what i hope will be relevant as people get to know people in the transgender community and as we make progress here i recognize when i first got involved in politics if i was honest about who i was i would have made some people nervous but they got used to me just want to reassure people here you're going to get used to them i understand this is new and we're human beings and new and different sometimes to make us nervous but you know look early on in our careers given the nature of prejudice frankly image we were seen as exceptions people are nice to watch but we were accepted if we were the good ones well we didn't want to be exceptions and now i think we are not exceptions were examples were examples of the benefits all around when you overcome prejudice let's give the country a chance to expand that experience to people transgender and as for the disruption  gay rights bill of one hundred seventy two i have filed and worked for gave for any discrimination measures sexual orientation race gender ethnicity disability and you know i will address for those who say well you can't do you gotta do what i want i've never done it all as a matter of fact for a long time i have worked for legislation which protected other people not me i finally got old enough to go to benefit of a major scream an asian legislation but every bill that i have ever been involved with where we tried to ban discrimination has met the same argument i get nothing against those people they're ok but it will be disruptive i've heard that was about to sexual orientation with affirmative action acted and see the similarity of the arguments and nobody goes back and says well where was the disruption there almost never is disruption as a matter of fact the sad truth about any discrimination legislation is people know that and people who practice that it tends to be under enforced because the people who want to discriminate can get sophisticated and the burden of proof is always on the one who's charging discrimination so the argument that it can be disruptive just doesn't work the argument that it's already done it's not true to need you can hear from a witness who applied for and was granted a job by the library of congress we're not talking about some but not needed institution out in some remote part of the country the library of congress vacuum and cultural center a person was hired and when that individual told the hiring agent well i'm going through a gender change you lost your job terribly bigger decision but that's because there's a need that this can happen to a qualified military veteran here in the library congress of course there's a need in other parts of the country let me just close personally and i understand  what's going to be on the day i realized what when i first realized i was gay i made me uncomfortable to do years ago it's not something sexuality and differentiate come together they get to the core of our human frailty but we do get used to each other and in virtually every case where we have confronted a prejudice it's worked out fine and we now boast about the lack of it we simply think this is a new category to some people but everything that applies in every other case applies here and for people for whom you think well gee it makes you want to easy well how do you think it makes the people who are themselves transgender feels anybody think anybody would volunteer to engage feel the kind of tension that my colleagues are well described to feel trapped in your wrong body in the wrong body and these are people who have courageously tried to deal with that so that they can maximize their ability to move the same lives we all want to live why would we deny them protection i understand is that said people got to get used to it but that's what i'm asking nobody's asking anybody to have dinner with people that make you uneasy or take them to the movies and  i work people as you would like to have a job and be judged on that job by the way in which they do the job why should that be considered disruptive and the fact that they are this or that or the other it is no more relevant than it used to be about their race or their gender or sexual orientation and as my cunny pointed out american corporations have benefited from this no one is being given life is to misbehave no one is giving a licensee to be about not a huge number of people but the people who who first of all had a deep anguish and have courageously dealt with that and they were only asking to be constructive citizens and to be allowed their personal space but to be judged in the impersonal work their economic work so we by their merits they are not now protected by the law the argument that it would be disruptive is simply not true as a disruptive and major corporations around those states that have done it are people who are grappling with something that many here let's be honest a probably grateful that you don't have to grapple with can't you help them that's all we are talking about we talking about responding as a compassionate society knowing that fighting discrimination illegally has worked well for this country to extend it to a group that may be new but certainly new may be d people but there is no more reason to deny them that than there was to anybody else thank you thank you and we appreciate the compliments of the committee but the way we operate here is that we don't measure our duty by the quantity of those  aggrieved we measure it by the depth of the grievance that those who have been discriminated against suffer so we're we're not concerned about how many people have been discriminated against we're concerned about the gravity of that discrimination the way that i would like to proceed is questions ask mr miller he's good at the end he on the minority side for our colleagues i would propose that we we have a number of floor votes we will go cast our votes will lee return and proceed with the next panel and we will stand in a german until  ladies and gentlemen the subcommittee will reconvene we thank you for your patience hopefully there will be a hiatus in floor vote so we can get to our business i'm going to begin by reading the biographies of our witnesses who are here for our second panel a nd we will then proceed with statements from the panelists and questions from our colleagues that are present here colonel schroer is that right that right colonel served for twenty five years in the army forces as a key strategist on homeland security after entering the army colonel storr completed ranger an airborne school and eventually rose the position of senior assessment director the colonel is an honors graduate of the u s army special forces qualification course and holds an undergraduate degree from northern illinois university colonel welcome and thank you for your service to our country diego sanchez is the director of public relations and external affairs for the aids action committee mr sanchez has twenty six years of experience in public and media relations we could use marketing and diversity management hispanic business magazine named him among the top one hundred most powerful latino latinas in corporate america mr sanchez is a rhodes scholar candidate and a human mass boston emerging leaders senior fellow he holds a b a from the university of georgia welcome mr sanchez glad that you're with us miller is a partner at the law firm of thompson hein l l p focusing in labor and employment law as well as business litigation prior to entering private practice miss miller was an assistant attorney general for the state of florida the chief of litigation for the florida department of labor and employment security and special counsel to the florida department of corrections she holds a b a from smith college and a w which is g l a d the acronym network almost since its inception in two thousand mr hendricks has made presentations on l g b topics at the out and equal conference and for local dr hendricks i guess it should be that right welcome glen levy i pronounce your name correctly mr levy lavey excuse me glen lavy is senior counsel and senior vice president for marriage litigation for the alliance defense fund before joining the a d f mr lavie practice litigation matters such as securities fraud antitrust and tax law he also worked for two years as senior law clerk the honorable john l coffee the united states court of appeals for the seventh circuit mr lavie is a graduate of the harvard law school where he served as executive editor of the harvard journal of law and public policy welcome mr labor glad that you're with  sabrina marcus terrible let it get that right i work for twenty three years as a space shuttle aeronautics engineer with a nasa contractor at the kennedy space center miss terrible letty currently works for the florida department of transportation she earned her undergraduate degree from suny maritime college earning a coast guard license to be a merchant marine officer welcome glad you're with us and finally last but not least shannon miller is legal director for the national center for lesbian rights one of the nation's leading advocacy organizations for lesbian gay bisexual and transgender people also serves on the american bar association commission on sexual orientation and gender identity and holds a j d from the finest law school in america the cornell law school and an honorary degree from the city university of new york school of law i say that because i'm hopelessly biased but also inscrutably accurate in front of you you will see a panel of lights this is so that we can keep people's testimony under some time constraints and get the questions from the members of the committee your written statements will be accepted without objection to the record in their entirety as far as your oral statements are concerned would ask you limit them to five minutes when the green light goes on you should begin speaking when the yellow light appears means you have one minute and we'd ask you to summarize your oral remarks and when the red light goes on we ask you to stop so we can move on to the next person and with that we will begin colonel with you we welcome you to the subcommittee mr chairman and committee members thank you for the opportunity to appear and testify here today my name is diane true or colonel u s army retired and i am a transgender woman i grew up in chicago as david shore with two older brothers in the most normal of a loving family i entered the us army forces qualification course i served sixteen years in special forces including tours as a detachment commander company commander and battalion commander accumulating four hundred fifty parachute j i participated in combat operations in panama and haiti as well as operational missions in the middle east central america africa and europe additionally i initiated humanitarian demining operations in most of southern africa u s special operations command i orchestrated the program objective memorandum or palm five thousand program lines covering all aspects of special operations for four years i knew every unit piece of equipment operation exercise development program and construction project where every dollar was supposed to be spent and where it actually was  following nine eleven i was selected to organize and direct a classified one hundred twenty person interagency organization responsible for all department of defense operations against the country's most significant terrorist threats and all long term planning for the global war on terrorism after almost two years of successful operations with twenty five years in the army twelve of those in command positions i retired in january two thousand and four  y the us government it's been thirty years and several million dollars educating me and perfecting my experience in the fields of insurgency and counterterrorism i currently run a small independent consulting company  done work for the department of homeland security the u s coast guard the national guard in the federal bureau of investigation focused on homeland security and maritime high risk counterterrorism operations top secret special compartmented information capable security clearance which was updated without issue in july of two thousand and seven i am here today because in fall two thousand and four i apply for the position of specialist  terrorism and international crime with the congressional research service of the library of congress in december i was told i had been selected for the position and after some rapid salary negotiations i accepted the job at the time i applied for the position i was in the progress process of my gender transition from day to diane although still legally david and therefore applied as david when i was offered the job at c r s in december two thousand and four i felt it would cause less confusion all around if i simply started work so i invited my future supervisor to lunch so i could tell her about my plans and help her ensure everything went smoothly i met my  supervisor in her office and she introduced me to several new colleagues at lunch she spoke at length on my new responsibilities involving preparing publishing and informing members about the critical issues surrounding terrorism and homeland security midway through lunch i mentioned a personal item that i wish to discuss i asked her if she knew what it meant to be transgender i explained that i had a female gender identity and was going to be living full time as a female my intent was to start when i commenced work at c r s i knew that whether i was david or i would provide a wealth of background knowledge and  research support to the congress truly felt that my future supervisor would feel the same way yet as we parted company following on she mentioned that i had given her a lot to think about the following day she called and said that after a long and sleepless night she decided i was not a good fit for the library in twenty four hours i had gone from a welcome addition to the staff to someone who was not a good fit as we used to say hero to zero in twenty four hours i listed the assistance of the a c l u in june of two thousand and five they filed suit in federal circuit court against the library of congress in its legal papers the libraries claimed it didn't hire me because i would lose my colleagues in the special operations community ironically these are precisely the people who have been second only to my family as much staunchest supporters but mary's claim that he could not hire me because it was concerned i would lose my security clearance yet it recently renewed without issue the library's claim that it could not hire me because i would have no credibility with members yet i testify in front of this committee here today in summary i hope that every day for the call to come from the library saying we've made a tremendous mistake i am ready and able to serve this country once again and i look forward to do so thank you colonel thank you very much for your testimony mr sanchez welcome to the committee mr chairman and members of the subcommittee thank you for adding my voice to those you here today my name is diego me of scientists and i'm a fifty one year old transsexual latino man i was born female and transition to male i grew up as an army brat and ended up in augusta georgia where my eighty year old mother lives today when i was five i told my parents i was born wrong that i felt like a boy inside my mother showed me a magazine with christine jorgensen on the cover she's told me that she didn't know if there were other people like me people who were born a girl and felt like a boy but that this woman was born a boy grew man and became a woman later in life and she said that by the time that i grew up that it would be ok from that time my parents gently privately duly socialized me my mother taught me to do the things that girls needed to do and my father raised me to know the lessons that men would have to know it was difficult and painful i have to be honest i had as many tutus as talk of trucks but i could survive the former because of the latter my parents always gave me hope and my positive outlook on life is the fruit of that loving labor mom was mostly right it's usually pretty ok for me these days i'm grateful to be gainfully employed by the aids action committee of massachusetts an aids action council here in washington as a director of public relations my degrees in journalism from the university of georgia have a major in public relations i am the only male ga letterman that i know of who earned that letter on the women's tennis team i was one of those straight a perfect attendance types dad always told me the harder you work the luckier you get i worked hard and i am lucky because sex reassignment procedures weren't as developed in one thousand nine hundred as they are now i focused on work hoping to change things later i spent nearly twenty award winning  years climbing the corporate ladder in global companies names that you would know like coca cola vs marsteller holiday and world wide i t g sheraton and starwood hotels i'm a loyal worker a passionate leader and a man who had to wait for fear of being fired to be who i was always destined to be the agony give songes an honorable man my career entailed navigating the newly defined glass ceiling it entailed probing limited opportunities for female privett professionals of color and it entailed trying to find a way to be a man while i look like a woman in the workplace it was heartbreaking and painful but it was necessary and it was the only way that i knew to save money to have sex reassignment which i did later from my own savings i struggled to find self respect in a world that i never imagined would allow let alone accept or embrace someone like me someone who seemingly was born wrong i was an honest person who could be honest about everything except myself i needed a negotiated with my corporate colleagues for things that would moderately  things that would mean nothing to anyone else meant so much to me it meant everything to get a tie instead of a scarf as a company talisman i asked people to use my first initial as my first name until i could change this medically legally i have lived long enough to achieve these games because i was able to do the one thing that military families are taught when there is a challenge i sucked it up but when my head hits the pillow every night i close my eyes and think about my friends who are transgender whose lives aren't so easy i miss my friend alexander john goodrem who took his own life i feel guilty about my brother my friend ethan st pierre who lost his job just he began his transition from female to male i still recognize that he lost his job because he was brave and honest and because i work in public health i know countless transgender people who are homeless these are good people who can't get work i flash my id every day it's never questioned but i have friends whose licenses and i d s don't match their gender identity so they're disclosed as transgender the minute that they have to show that id including when they try to get work i see this burden when recruiting firms do their due diligence and check my social security number it closes doors for me and it limits the lives of my friends i grew up in the south where i was allowed to be in public swimming pool pools because i'm not white this experience of employment discrimination against trans people feels like a flashback please treat us including me transgender people as you treat others thank you mr sanchez thank you very much for your statement ms miller look forward to hearing from you thank you chairman and ranking member quiet members of the committee i to provide you with some insight into the potential unintended legal consequences of using certain language and any proposed legislation and the challenges that american businesses may face in implementing that legislation promoting a workplace free of discrimination is not only laudable it is sound business practice however any time new legislation is enacted impacting the workplace there is a subsequent disruption in the workplace as managers human resource professionals and employees all try to implement the new policies and adjust their working routine to comply with the new legal mandate this disruption can be minor or it can be significant at times well intended legislation isn't acted without regard to the practical implications it will have in every day operations of the american business responsibility for ensuring that the new law is appl to the workplace race with somebody in the company often it is a human resources staff but very often with smaller companies with fifteen or more employees say fifteen to twenty five there is no dedicated human resources position it is instead a task that falls to someone else in the company who is already juggling other duties whether that's the owner or one of the managers even in those companies that have sophisticated human resources staff the implementation of new legislation can be difficult that the law is particularly complex or too vague or requires a drastic change in the work environment as a trial attorney i've seen numerous instances where confusion over what is required by a statute that is unclear has led to a lawsuit and that nonetheless an employer has tried to comply in good faith with the law still get sued and for these reasons i would ask the committee to carefully consider the implications of any legislation which might be enacted regarding transgender discrimination i respectfully suggest to the committee consider three specific areas for any proposed legislation the first would be in the definition of gender identity or transgender some of the proposed language which has been brought to my attention would include the word mannerism that is disturbing we don't not classify protected classes on to the law based on mannerisms and i am concerned that if we use that word in any definition we are actually may be perpetuating stereotypes for instance hundred years ago a firm handshake may have been a hallmark of masculinity and today's world i would hope that if a business woman has a firm handshake that is a sign of not masculinity but of the fact that she's confident and she's very competent and again mannerisms are something that is can be changed intrinsic characteristics or not so please be careful and using the type of language that you would use if you decide to go forward bill and define what is transgender or gender identity but the second purpose i would i would like the second item i would like committee to consider would be the carve out exemption  for an area of certain shared facilities some of the language of scene has also indicated that the shared facilities would be places where they would be showers or dressing areas or an area where doing so one on clothes would be unavoidable to quote one of my dear mentors from the south that seems to be that we went around the block a long way to get where we need to be the word restroom really needs to be in legislation if there's any less legislation  quite frankly you don't want to have trial lawyers litigating over whether the ladies room is a place where seeing somebody on clothes is unavoidable or not unavoidable the word restroom is clearly needs to be inserted into any type of legislation and the carve out is important and i would encourage the committee to continue to use that car about employees have a very high expectation of privacy in certain areas such as is dressing rooms locker rooms and restrooms i handled a case a few years ago up in my home state of massachusetts where a female employee had brought a title seven lawsuit alleging hostile work environment under title seven based on the fact that there was a hole in the ladies room which was about a need high that was not put there intentionally but it still allowed someone bent down the opportunity to view into the restroom and she felt that that was significant enough to her to go ahead and arrest part of her federal lawsuit upon it again you need to be aware of the fact that employees do find certain areas of privacy very important  finally the issue of notification there's there's some issue here about what to do with a individual who might be transitioning from one gender to another and that's not easy i understand that the committee will be challenge but if it addresses that we do need to have some sensitivity to the employer at what point does the employer need to make modifications to their work for individuals who might be transitioning if the person gives notice on monday the employer need to then allow them to use the restroom of the opposite sex on tuesday finally i would encourage the committee to consider jurisdiction if there is any type of legislation that is passed with all due respect to the state judiciary federal courts are far more equipped to handle discrimination suits you better funded the judges see them more often and they they process through the court system much more rapidly than at the state level and for that reason i would encourage the committee consider the jurisdiction of the federal courts to be exclusive if there's any strike type of legislation and finally prevailing costs or costs and fees to a prevailing party is also important employers for getting hammered by legal fees and costs to fight frivolous lawsuit and they need to have some sort of mechanism to be able to recoup some of those costs  one of the employee networks all working towards noting an increasingly diverse and inclusive workplace thanks to subcommittee for holding this hearing to examine the discrimination that many transgender americans face in their workplace first let me provide just a little bit of background on tao tao was founded one hundred ten years ago in midland michigan our small town midwestern roots have encouraged us to establish enduring core values of integrity and respect for people it is these days that form the very heart of our approach to diversity and inclusion and dow we serve customers in one hundred sixty countries and we have about forty three thousand employees clearly diversity underpins our workforce our culture and indeed our very business model we know that it is our human element that is key to our success as a result we know that creating a respectable inclusive working environment is not only a matter of fairness and equality but it's one of critical economic and business importance with a shrinking talent pool particularly in the sciences and engineering it is essential for us to actively include everyone to ensure that we attract and retain the very best talent that's available to us as an industrial business to business supplier with virtually no consumer marketing we must work even harder to heaven and then the five will employ your brand when we discuss l g b t workplace policies we do so knowing that these policies give us an advantage because we don't have major offices or facilities in the metropolitan areas of the us r l g b t employees often have more protection from discrimination under down policies than they do in the laws of their state or locality specifically r l d b c policies have been good for our workplace for two main reasons number one retention of r l g b t employees because they know that they can perform their job without fear of repercussion and there or have more reason to be committed to the company and number two better recruitment of allies and younger workers who often use things like employee benefits such as  transgender policies or a flexible work hours as a litmus test for prospective employers for down like most counties the offering of benefits to l g b t employees has been a result of a multi state journey we first instituted sexual orientation in our employee nondiscrimination policies in two thousand we then added parity for domestic partner benefits in two thousand and two and we had a protection based on gender identity in two thousand and five  special note we have implemented this globally for all one hundred sixty countries that we do business in when comparing our company to other fortune five hundred dollars one of the nearly three hundred that currently offer protection for employees based on gender identity loss of talent comes at a very significant cost to employers many of whom like now will suffer from shortages of qualified workers as baby boomers retire for a workplace transgender policy we leverage the policy developed by the human rights campaign and then modified it slightly for our specific work in workplace conditions this policy strongly emphasized is the mutual respect and good communication between the transitioning employee and his or her supervisor communication to the transitioning employees work group is also critical for example working with the transitioning employee training seminars can be created to prepare co workers our policy also addresses questions such as transitioning name change updating company databases and offering support for other legal documents such as passports that are required for work as i've mentioned it has been a journey for my company on the whole our program has gone remarkably well we have had one employee transition in the workplace since two thousand and five and in a lot of these policies as expected co workers have had a few questions and concerns but our company has been able to address them and to ensure that the workplace remains a very respectful and productive discussions with transitioning employee she felt that most of her coworkers were quite accepting and supporting overall we have achieved a positive reception of our transgender policy both internally and externally internally because of our strong commitment our human elements campaign policies very little negative notice was taken of the inclusion of gender identity this is just one more diversity factor within a comprehensive program that our company offers dell appreciate the chance to share o the committee's work together more information on gender identity within the workplace and we welcome any further questions we may have thank you dr hendricks we appreciate your perspective very much thank you for being here mr lavie welcome to the subcommitte you're hearing stories of painful experiences in the workplace is it on your light on yes it is on ok we will take this from your time either even though you didn't go to cornell we'll we'll let you all right ok you are being asked to make a moral judgment about the treatment of transgendered persons in the workplace you're being asked to make the judgment that it is immoral for employers to refuse to accommodate a person's belief that he or she is a member of the sex that is opposite their anatomical sex what you have not heard is that some employers have a deeply held religious beliefs about these issues other employers do not have and ready ability to be able to accommodate a transgendered employee without violating the rights of other employees or members of the public when it comes to the use of restrooms and unless an employee specifically requested accommodation for his or her belief that he or she is a member of the opposite sex and employer has no means of knowing the employee's views most tran anti discrimination laws refer to actual or perceived gender identity or expression this type of provision is highly problematic for employers how is an employer to know what an employee sense of themselves is without the employee pressley disclosing it the subjective nature of gender identity makes it wholly unlike and object of immutable characteristic like race an employer seldom if ever needs to wonder why don't employees racist that is something that the employer can simply tell by observation it is often probably usually impossible to tell simply by looking at a person what that person's concept of their gender identity is indeed gender identity is often as an observable as religious beliefs and religion has never received protection under title seven without the employee specifically requesting an accommodation of a religious belief even then even when an employee does request an accommodation employee's employers are not generally required to provide the accommodation if it is too expensive or too inconvenient for them to be able to do so the problems raised today do not have a simple solution that can be solved by mandating accommodation by employers and mission to religious objections many people have genuine privacy concerns about the use of restrooms i'm sure you've been hearing about the debate in montgomery county maryland where mcgovern recounted he passed legislation that does allow men to use a woman's restroom before having sexual reassignment surgery some employers cannot accommodate the restroom issue for a transitional employee regardless of whether they want to be at city case from the tenth circuit that i cited in my written testimony as an example a utah transport authority bus driver dressed as a woman but had male anatomy while driving his route he had to use public restrooms the employer or the employee could not necessarily find a restroom that was available for single use because every day the employee had a different bus route this was a substitute bus driver employer had the choice of keeping the employee and risking claims a violation of the privacy of other people in a public restroom or terminating the employee if there were a federal law creating protection for gender identity employer would have been forced to accept the risk of liability for violations of other people's privacy in public restrooms that is a very real risk that a number of employers would face if this committee were to prepare legislation giving specific protector protection to gender identity i'm not asking this committee to make a moral judgment about transgendered persons what i am suggesting is that the federal law should not make that moral judgement all employers thank you mr lavie thank you very much for your testimony and this terrible atty welcome to the subcommittee mr chairman and all members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting me here today my name is sabrina markus terrible eddy and i'm the parent of two beautiful children who i love and who in turn love me i am also a transgender woman i grew up in a very conservative traditional middle class italian catholic family in pelham new york we were a close loving family much like you'd see in the movie mike big fat greek wedding i attended suny maritime college one of the country's premier merchant marine academ and graduated with a degree in engineering and a coast guard license to be an officer in the merchant marine shortly after college i moved to florida to work on the space shuttle at kennedy space center most who know me will share that i am passionate about the space program and honored to be part of its history after twenty years of service my final employer was united space alliance the prime contractor of the shuttle program so what happened to my dream job in two thousand and three i summarily fired six weeks after announcing that i would be changing my sex from male to female after assigning security personnel to follow my every move charges were drummed up and i was suspended without pay pending a board hearing for dismissal i was escorted off the base center escorted off the space center grounds and told not to return i was told the actions were the result of a nasty investigation initiated by an anonymous hotline call to my knowledge i was the force proport person attempting transition at the space center while trying to keep their job the first three before me also failed the first women was a union machinist who could no longer take the harassment of her fellow employees and left the center to find work elsewhere the second woman was isolated and given no work do she was fired after she made enough mistakes the last woman was a launch pad technician who was jeered and scoffed at until she finally took her own life an all too common occurrence we fail because there are no formal transgender policies or procedures at the space center there are no policies because there are no laws at the state or federal level requiring employees to have them my future therefore was left up to the interpretation of people who have no education and transgender issues or needs worse yet no one really cares or wanted to learn even though i made a diligent effort to educate them it was easier for them to find a way just to have me removed i cannot tell you how meaningless life feels when an event like this happens i didn't know where to turn or what future i had i was humiliated i was fired after twenty years of service i received no severance pay no words i allowed to collect unemployment i have had to tell future employers or future potential employers i was dismissed has made finding new employment almost impossible what is even more troubling is that i what is even more troubling is that i had anticipated the possibility of my job lost and worked furiously to avoid it i reached out to my management my coworkers h r and even the associate administrator of the for nasa but there was no help from any level four years later after submitting what seems like hundreds of applications i have not been able to find a new position in the space program which is not only the field i love but is one of the few industries in my area when it or an engineer like me can find a job there are those  believe that being transgender is a lifestyle or a choice personally i have lost my wife most of my assets and my home and divorce i have been abandoned by half of my family and friends at the same time i have had to find the sevent ninety thousand dollars of funding and endure the extreme pain of electrolysis and the very other various other surgeries required to complete the transition from male to female all this while trying to stay employed believe me no one wakes up one morning and says hey i think i'm going to change my sex today no one says you know living with that discrimination hatred won't be all that bad after all being transgender is something you're born with and something you have to deal with just the best way you can there is more to my life than just my profession during my time at the space center i married and after fourteen years unfortunately divorced i have two children i am their father something i assured them would never change my relationship with my children is very strong and i'm active in both their academic and personal lives my daughter in one thousand presidential lives with me she attends the university of central florida on a full chemistry scholarship my son seventeen is still in high school but recently was assessed accepted to attend as a cadet and my alma mater but my family is not really separate from my job my economic security impacts them as well my feeling of worth also impacts them so when i face discrimination they face it to what happens to me because i am transgender also happens to them not only because they love me but because i still provide for them how i am treated is how they are treated as well i am a good engineer i am a good parent and i am a good person i am still a practicing catholic and i honor my country i do not deserve the just the job discrimination that i faced people should be judged by the quality of their work by the quality of their character so many of us face what i have faced more are preparing to face it in the future it needs to stop this terrible eddie thank you very much we appreciate you being here thank you  witness on this panel welcome members of the subcommittee i think your microphone is not on there you got her ok thank you very much for convening this hearing you know this is the first time that members of the transgender community have had a chance to talk with congress so directly about our lives and we very much appreciate that and it's an honor to be here today with colonel sure and the other witnesses the focus of my testimony on the urgent need for a federal law to protect transgender workers in addition to speaking you to you today as an attorney who specializes in transgender legal issues i'm also pleased to be able to speak to you as a transgender man i was born female and transition from female to male several years ago now some transgender people are fortunate to have support in the workplace very often however when  person discloses that they are transgender when the employer otherwise discovers the person's transgender status learns of that status that employee is very likely to face terminations harassment or even violence just last year for example steve stanton had served as the city manager of largo florida for fourteen years was incredibly effective he was very well respected in that position he had just received a glowing evaluation but literally within days of discovering that stan was transgender intended to transition from male to female he was gone the city commission of largo abruptly fired him and  acknowledge that it was doing so because of his transgender status another case small town in vermont hired an experienced law officer a police officer everything was going fine until a town official discovered on a website that the officer was transgender and was born female had undergone had sex reassignment many years earlier that information was communicated to that officers superiors who then shamefully deliberately embarked on a campaign to try to intimidate him into leaving his job and even went so far as to endanger his physical safety by issuing him faulty security equipment and he was driven from his job and this discrimination came to light only because a former police chief disclose what had happened to the vermont attorney general now states and localities across the country are passing laws to address this type discrimination twelve states in the district of columbia now have laws that protect transgender workers over one hundred localities have also enacted local anti discrimination laws many employers both large and small have voluntarily adopted policies that prohibit discrimination against their transgender workers and those are very important advances but we need more than a patchwork of state and local laws and employer policies the brutal reality is in most places in this country a transgender worker who is fired or harassed for being transgender has no legal protection as a direct result there are many people in the transgender community who are forced into chronic persistent unemployment poverty and homelessness existing federal law does not prohibit workplace discrimination against transgender employees that includes title seven as a logical matter when a person is fired for changing his or her sex a court should say that sex discrimination should be covered under title seven in practice however there is not a single federal court anywhere in the country that has held that title seven prohibits discrimination against transgender workers because they are transgender we need congress to make clear that discrimination against transgender people because of their gender identity is against the law thank you for your leadership on this issue growing up in a small town in texas i literally could not have imagined this day there are so many transgender people in our families all across the country waiting and hoping that you will take action to protect us mentor thank you very much for your testimony like to thank each of the witnesses for very provocative thoughtful testimony we're going to try to have questions back and forth so we can draw out some of the points have been made first  introduce two things for the record one is a letter without objection that will be entered from the business coalition for workplace fairness dealing with these issues i also do want to take a moment to thank some constituents and friends from new jersey thank each of the witnesses for a very thoughtful testimony and mr lay the i wanted to explore with you the concept of religious liberty and rights of conscience in the workplace and how it would interact with attempts to protect members of the transgender community when you use an example that saying forcing persons with beliefs certain religious beliefs to treat transgender is a valid concept  forcing an orthodox jew to eat pork it is the law though today isn't it that if an orthodox jew runs a law firm he or she could not refuse to employ a person because they're catholic is that correct it's a law not that i'm aware well what if the person says look my principles are that i want people who read the scripture the way i do who understand worship the way i do so if someone believes that there a human being who is supreme overall in the name of the pope i don't want someone who believes in papal supremacy working for me is it violates my understanding of the scripture does that orthodox jewish law firm have the right to deny i don't i'm unaware of someone having a religious belief that employing someone with a different belief violates their conscience well of course this is not a matter of someone having different religious beliefs i mean what we're arguing about here is if someone believes that sexual identity at birth is a matter of religious belief and someone who takes a different view applies for a job i think your position is that to compel the employer to disregard that fact would be a violation of the employer's religious belief is that your position not hiring someone with a different view but i'm saying that there are people who have a violation of their religious principles and their the center of their religious beliefs is pacifism and the job applicant is a marine corps combat veteran does the pacifist have the right do you think the passes should have the right to deny employment to the marine corps combat veteran because pacifism is a central tenet of their religious beliefs  i don't see how that violates the religious beliefs  of if someone believes that taking up arms and making war is central to their are religious faiths that believe that pacifism is a very central principle and if someone doesn't follow that princely saying that doesn't violate that central tenet or belief i would say that would be very different if the person is actively engaging in war at the time what if the person's a marine corps reservist and they're going to be called up to active duty in all likelihood in a couple of months that would be actively engaging in combat about  that may be a violation of their religious beliefs but not one that would be accommodated under title seven now but i didn't ask you about title seven i ask what your opinion was so is it your opinion that the pacifist employer should not be permitted to deny a job opportunity to the marine reservist it is my opinion that the pacifist employer should probably have the right to do that should what about the i guess i am thinking in terms of the concept of religious liberty in our constitution and the fourteenth amendment that was a judgment by  americans using race as a criteria not valid regardless of what you seem to say if we make a judgment that using gender identity is a valid criterion that somehow morally invalid if we have the power to make the judgment about race why don't we have an equally valid power to make the decision about gender identity i'm saying that i think it is not a good idea to do that i'm not saying you don't have the power to do it although there may b scope of the munity in the case of someone who is somehow discomforted by transgender people shouldn't the scope the uniform across the board matter that has not my final point and i don't want to hug the time but don't you have an establishment clause problem with that it seems to me that it says that acceptable religions as we define them will have the zone of immunity so the deeply held religious beliefs will exam people from employment discrimination laws but other kinds of religions a white supremacist pacifist base don't doesn't that put us in the position of defining particular pleasure in the great battle of what is the best law school i guess i'd have to admit that are frankly don't care what he does thank you thank you for that  miller and i don't know if we resolved the issue about the law school here but you had a variance in testimony that i think it's extremely important to us as we consider the possibility of statute i believe very firmly that the language that we use matters indeed when we write a law when we pass a law regulatory agencies often come in to write regulations but it may change things somewhat but fundamentally the languages  statute is very very important and we need to be very clear about that you mentioned in your testimony for example that use of the word mannerism could be problematic i want to there's some discussion we've had some discussion in this committee and back recently about some language issues came up when we were discussing the earlier bill in the bill using the word perceived in that legislation which many people thought was problematic so in quotes regarded as having a disability some of the discussions around the new protections based on gender identity involve providing protection based on employee's sexual orientation or gender identity whether actual or in quote overt act or a condo by the employer or the manager treating this individual in there regarding them as disabled in their treatment perception is something totally different  perception can become reality we all know that but perceived as maybe something that's vague language that is really not actionable when it comes time to enforcement of rights because perceived can be something that's totally internal it's not necessarily an expression by the employer or the coworker regarded as however is language that suggests that there is some sort of an a overt action taken so your testimony then there would be which would require court interpretations of the term polluted it is and i would not just in involve court interpretation it would also involve a great deal of confusion by the managers and human resources people in the field and we would end up litigating over the table as whether somebody is conduct was it was somebody's personal belief constituted a perception or not we cannot legislate people being nice to each other it would be nice to do that but we cannot we all know that we cannot legislate people's internal thoughts and processes that's part of the part about being in america we allow people to have freedom of thought and freedom of expression internally regarded as is much better language because it implies that there has been some sort of an action taken in the workplace and then that can become the subject of any type of debate or litigation ok so i unanimous course west to submit a statement in the record that objection to excuse myself without objection misandrous thank you i'm going to start with a quote from martin luther king junior and he said that laws cannot change people's hearts but they can restrain the heartless and i think that it would do well for all of us to remember that no we can't legislate what people's thoughts are but we can legislate their actions and where we find discrimination we can say that that is something that is unlawful and the last time i checked every time the congress passes a new law it's subject to interpretation and yes sometimes the courts have to decide what the statute actually means the idea that oh there's going to be all this litigation and every time we act in this body there is that potential but that doesn't restrain us from doing the job for us and trying to tackle the challenges that we see before us and trying to hopefully make society a better place in all different respects i want to begin my questions with mr minturn in calif in california and in eleven other states and the district of columbia and more than one hundred local governments they've been active explicit employee discrimination protections for transgender individuals is that correct and yet in the background materials that are reviewed to prepare for this hearing i've learned that the transgender law center in san francisco seems to keep pretty busy in trying to protect californians from improper terminations as well as on the job abuse and harassment and one of the examples that was given was that a thirteen year old a thirteen year old a thirteen year employee of a san francisco nightclub was verbally harassed demoted and even subjected to physical assault all because he informed his employers that he would be transitioning to male if this kind of thing is happening where there are legal protections in place it makes me wonder just how much worse it is for folks whose legal recourse for such abusive incidents is less clear and my question is can you please explain for us why clarifying federal law would be helpful given the treatment that many transgender individuals receive on the job both in states with the explicit protections of those without yes thank you well as you point out congresswoman merely passing a law does not automatically change people's hearts or lemonade all discrimination and we certainly know that from race discrimination sex discrimination religious criminal laws we still have to deal with those realities in our society but what those laws do the critical essential thing accomplished by those laws is to make it perfectly clear to everyone employer including employers and employees that we as a society condemn discrimination on those bases because they're completely unrelated to a person's ability to perform as an employee unfortunately when it comes to gender identity discrimination we don't have that clear message and so what you see is a result is the cause and a blatant shocking overt on embarrassed discrimination that has been described on the panel today and that devastates people's lives and literally leaves people with no way to earn a living in leads to incredibly high rates of homelessness and poverty in the transgender community this for our community is a crisis having a federal law that makes clear that employers cannot discriminate on the basis of gender identity disc gender identity without running the risk of liability would have a transformative effect on our country there's no doubt about that and we've seen that in the states and localities that have those laws true we still have problems but it provides a platform for education and it provides legal recourse which thank you for your service to our nation and i think that anyone who wishes to serve should be able to do so and i think that oftentimes more places are the richer and the better for the diversity that people bring to the table on i think the first panel of witnesses how much better congress is because of that diversity i'm wondering what does our country lose out when they don't allow people like you to work numbers but the issue is very much you can two gay service in the military why should this country deny itself that pool of very qualified people and that expertise and experience th very rare occurrence no actually unfortunately it's all too common occurrence and is shannon's comment it's unfortunately all too common the that the discrimination is blatant but there are also legends scores of cases where the employer was too soon there are methods of removing him and  think again i think shannon's comments are spot on the that the leadership is key in my experience the work that i have been able to do in this town is keyed to the the relationships that i've built up in twenty five years military service those people are the ones who hire me and and push work my way people that don't know me almost seem to have an implied sense that there should be discrimination because i am most consent mr payne is here as a member of the full committee he's recognized for five minutes thank you very much and thank you for allowing me to sit in your subcommittee although i'm not a member of the s committee but this is an issue that i have a tremendous amount of interest in i think discrimination in general is just wrong and you can see why i think that much discrimination being a black person in a city that was known for a lot of racial discrimination even though it was in the north north new jersey and it's good to see you again audience shaking their head and so i just wonder if anybody would like to to just discuss that issue where there never been an issue when i'm recognized as a woman wherever i go and people in all walks of my employment and personal i have no issues where i go to the back and i'll just jump in there you know we actually have a lot of experience with this issue now because there are a number of state and local laws and there are so many employers now that have adopted nondiscrimination policies there is a very standard tried and true approach to bathrooms i the only one that's workable and humane and respectful that is for a transgender person to use the restroom that corresponds to their when they take that step of living full time in their true gender that's consistent with the medical protocols and with common sense what we have seen time and time again is that any discomfort that coworkers may feel very quickly dissipates and that's because  transgender man a man or a transgender woman really is a woman co worker's very quickly come to recognize that you know we have such a great track record on that with all cross the country  are thousands of transgender people who every day use the appropriate restroom without any incident or problem so that is one issue that is very straightforward and really in a practical sense a non issue my suggestion would be if there is guidelines already out there and they've been successful that the committee look to that and use that and put that in any legislation that this committee ma support propose and that is passed so that employers are not left trying to wade through this because again we have very sophisticated companies such as dow who are here and they have a very comprehensive policy but this proposed legislation may apply to smaller companies again as i testified to fifteen sixteen seventeen person employee companies are not going to have that level of sophistication and they're going to take their guidance from what ever congress passes the only thing i would like to add to this is that when i was transitioning and i think i speak for most of the community is that the transgender community was always very willing to work with our employers to do this in the ourselves and for the people who work around us so we want to be considerate as some ploy thank you very much just just finally you know this issue i imagine is going to start to to especially now that we finally and i mean you know commend the chairman for calling this hearing as as chairman frank said earlier we could have found a million reasons not to have the hearing fact i wasn't supposed to be here but i would have been a good reason not to be here because i didn't really know the meeting was going on here was going on until i was late picking up my papers from the last hearing that and we apologize you probably all thought they had a go again at discriminating against keeping us waiting for this and all that stuff right but no it was a holdover from yesterday and defense of mr andrews is you know we had these votes that was supposed to be done yesterday so we had a deal on today so all those conspiracy theories i heard probably mumbling out there sorry they weren't beginning i think i was going to get to the question of how do we how do sense i remember now the fact that this hearing is held and so therefore a dialogue has be a formal dialogue how how what suggestions do you in the transgender community have as relates to the attempt to to educate pass laws that people people respect the law however how is there any suggestions about how a dialogue and broader sense could  began so that education about about the subject could could could be discussed do you think it should be in the workplace do you think it should be like  itself is a quantum leap forward on the public education and we appreciate that enormously the thing i would just say is how much we are to the corporate sector it's wonderful to have dr hendricks here today the corporate world has really been such a leader on this issue so many businesses have adopted proactively voluntarily wonderful nondiscrimination policies and they are our best spokespeople in any venue's we can find to have more dialogue like the one here today with representatives from the business world and a chance for the public to hear from people like carl shore and the other witnesses here today markable record of accomplishment and skills and to see what we're missing out on what our country's missing out on by not protecting those valuable workers absolutely and as you as we are here experiencing this with you and thank you so much for this we we go back to our towns in we know that you are leaders in your towns so one of the ways your question and i think i understand it pretty clearly it's like for those of us of color how did they ever think that we were human after all met more of us and how they met or this was through the people who were more like them like us translating that to this scenario let us work together with organizations and you and your offices to get to know us in different towns you have access to things and media people and community forums and down all of that we would be willing to participate with you and so consider us a partner i would say and let's use both our people across the country because a it's been around for a long time let's just not always safe so making it safe for us to be with you in communities would be very helpful and we have organizations that you already work with as well to that we can make this even richer is terrible an some just very quickly the national center for transgender education and the task force are ready willing and able to supply the people you need to talk to and organize those people to to supply the expertise you need to have those meetings and that get those dialogues started thank you very much dan is the human rights campaign ok thank you mr mr harris recognized for five minutes issue with a couple things you said and just give you from my perspective and i have do have a couple questions for the witnesses you talked about this being a moral judgment in religious beliefs let me submit to you that the person that i read a lot about two thousand years ago the people that this person hundred round with that that he was the closest to were people that nobody else wanted to associate themselves with and i think we should remember that i also think you said this is you know moral judgment from my perspective been being very candid this legislation it's a moral obligation that not only this congress has but this nation has because if this were a case from my perspective of a person being african american and they were fired simply because of that all heck would break loose can't do that but somebody like the colonel and the other witnesses that have testified here they have given so much of this nation that seems to be ok to do it is not ok to do and when you said there are no simple solutions sir let me suggest to you that i could not disagree with you more there are it's called this congress passing legislation that bars this that makes it simple and the courts can figure it out and one witness says well you can't legislate how people feel or how they think that might be this is america but i believe we can legislate what is right and what is just and what is fair and that is the purpose i believe of  legislation so with all due respect i could not be more at odds with you in terms of how the system and i think the restroom thing and and some of the other things that have been brought up those are all but i just i just want to say to people here you know i my sister lost her eye when she was growing up and i know what it's like when people make fun of your she'll never be what she's different she was doing that up working for thirty years thirty five years one of the best surgeons in my area and she did quite well so you know i'm sensitive when it comes to and i cringe when i hear about well we just can't do this no simple solutions privacy issues and again i go back to say to  you this is a moral obligation we have the last time i saw the constitution read that every person was supposed to created equal it didn't cherry pick i do want to ask the people who are here that have testified that have lost their jobs and colonel and by and you know what do you do when when everything you've ever had is gone simply because of something as mean spirited this congressman i guess i'll start and once again the people who came to my rescue were the people that everyone else bought with desert me and my colleagues in the special operations community recognized what i was capable of doing the work that i've done in the past and worked diligently to find work for me so that i could continue to support myself and make a meaningful contribution without them i'm afraid i wouldn't be here so again it's it's thanks to them that they went out of their way and in many cases put themselves in their reputations in their firm's reputations at risk to deliberately provide me an very interesting because i didn't know discrimination also and one of the things i'm really thankful for is that god gave this to me at first i i was and at first i was horrified as a teenager that god gave me this and now i look at it as a gift because i've gotten to see so much of the world mr payne you were just committed and you've known that for your life and i'm a big fan of martin luther king also and and i think he's a hero in this country and i honor him because now i understand discrimination miss miller i'm surprised at you because you've forgotten that only you know your great grandmother couldn't even vote great great grandmother could even vote you know a century ago when you've forgotten that women were discriminated against i i know that pain and i remember it now but you asked me how i survived while i had accumulated about three hundred thousand dollars and for a one k that is just about gone now after five years i also took jobs much much lower level than my education allowed my last job as you know as working for department of transportation i was making ten dollars an hour and i was fill potholes were asphalt and pouring concrete into sidewalks my dad gave me a workout that ethic and i refused to go on unemployment and i refused to go on the dole and so that's what i was doing but even there i had a fellow employee draw a picture of me and then in a compromising way i filed a neo suit for sexual harassment and rather than get rid of the employee who did that to me they found a way to get rid of me so even though it's  that i was employed i am now once again unemployed by the state of florida so there's a second time i am unemployed so there you have it i'm almost out of my four original for a one k i'm unemployed and i'm about ready to sell my of women in this country to be treated fairly i'm a graduate of women's college i worked my way through law school the most egregious example of sexual harassment i've ever encountered happened to me while i was  employee of the federal government and no one did anything to address it but i also sit here today as a representative millions of women who have business owners and small business owners i also see here today as the product of somebody who has been given a leg up men toward and helped by men and to my career so i'm very painfully aware of the discrimination still exists in this country forty three years after the passage of title seven but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have open dialogue and respect each other's backgrounds i appreciate that i appreciate the comments of all the witnesses mr klein you have anything to say in closing today's proceedings i would like to thank mr klein and my democratic and republican colleagues for their participation today and each of the witnesses for their meticulous preparation and for the work that they've done in making this hearing possible  yesterday almost every member of the house of representatives voted in favor of revisions to the americans with disabilities act it's anticipated the president may sign this into law this summer and i hope that he does  i think the issue that four hundred plus house members voted for yesterday's the same issue we're talking about here the the principle that drew the house together yesterday was the notion that if you apply for a job or apply for a promotion you're considered for a promotion whether or not you get the job or the promotion should be a function of your ability and your work ethic not any extraneous or irrelevant factor and we're going to have a vigorous debate in this committee over the extent to which transgender status is an irrelevant or extraneous factor we're going to have a discussion as we have here today is the best way to accommodate reasonable concerns of employers in the workplace we're going to have a vigorous debate as to the scope of freedom of conscience and freedom of religion for those who may feel a different set of moral beliefs than are we ourselves do but i don't think the principle here is that a us or that complicated i really do think that when someone is up for a promotion or a position at c r s if that person is the best one for the job they should get the job and i don't i certainly don't think that someone should be dismissed from his or her job because of one's transgender status and we're going to have vigorous debate over the extent to which that principle should be written into our law the member the panels today have given us significant contributions toward resolving that debate progress in this country is glacial and if you're the person who needs the progress it's slower than that but  one of the comments that was just made i think do give us some reason for optimism my mother was born in one thousand nine hundred the day that she was born voting was a very new idea for women mr payne when he was born and raised the idea of serving in the united states congress would have seemed like a preposterous idea given the circumstances under which he was raised in a city that was supposed to be removed from the jim crow south i remember i went to school with at least two individuals who committed suicide before their thirty fifth birthday because they were gay men and they couldn't deal with the circumstances of the rejection and repudiation in their own communities in some cases their own families because of asserting who they were and how they felt comfortable there had been there has been progress in that field as well i view today as an important step in the road to progress for all people all people and i don't think this hearing simply has significance for those who are members of the transgender community i think it has significance for anyone who is a member of any unpopular or forgotten minority who doesn't have a lot of votes a lot of money a lot of power but has a lot of passion behind their cause so we appreciate everyone's  participation i would note that as previously ordered members will have fourteen days to submit additional materials for the hearing record and if any member wishes to submit follow up questions in writing to the witnesses they should go with the majority staff within fourteen days without