the construction of the during each axis attempt to said public telephone network i said potential color poured found that the phrase included a set of actions encompassed a set of actions in fact in ruling on s petition for rehearing it take a leave found that the phrase constitutes an action or set of actions it cannot be defined by duration of time and that reiterated its point in its final written decision that the phrase does not cover a period of time and the board found that those several actions in compass by axis attempt included prompting recording matching with respect to the comparing step granting step on three lines thirteen through nineteen all of those citations show that these steps occurred prior to points in between when the user picks up the telephone to access the system and when the user is either granted or denied access to the network and susan discloses in all of those places several so so as i understand it the board said that these kinds of authentication steps in susan they occur either while the conversation is in process or before there is a true sorts of authentication steps before there's an access attempt compared to during an access attempt which is recited in the claim so can you speak to that why you think the board got it wrong and it's understanding that susan teaches an environment that does all of these steps only before the access attempt to the phone yes so the boards understand the board's construction of that term and definition of when an access attempt weekend is absolutely unclear i some time either before the user actually tries to access a system it's very unclear based on the current record why the board reached that decision and i think that attempt and that susan nevertheless teaches those actions during that access attempt there's this other hurdle you have which is whether or not the petitioner met  or your petition a reply that looked like a fully realized explanation you know supported with evidence on why one of ordinary skill in the art would be motivated to combine these two references well so could you point me to your best explication of your theory on the motivation combined gainsborough and susan sure petition and or and then that's basically yet and then at three fifteen there's the sum up sentence for person of skill in the art would understand the futures of gainsborough could be combined with the futures of susan and any number of architecture the implementation depending on the particular system problem i have with that is this is not much analysis on this question if this kind of analysis be done aboard a plane then i would have to  compelled to vacate that as being insufficient reasoning to support a finding for motivation combine and so when i look at what you've offered up for the board to consider seems likewise meager and very basic theory and the logical extension of that is any two references in some broadly defined field of art could and should be combined any old way you want you know and then you know i think statistically now you're thinking about so many different iterations of things that you are just lift large proclaiming to be obvious without any further analysis i'm troubled by that so i need more than just saying that to system or that monitor what happens in a telephone system there isn't the same problems there addressing problems of it used in the telephone system of inmates going and calling people they're not supposed to or any m when they make phone calls susan however doesn't say anything about prisoners it's about you know authenticating employees access to their phones in the office and so so not just talking about two references that generally relate to telephones we're talking about susan which sets up a system for granting access with gainsborough it monitors calls once you have access there's nothing proper the real problem here is that the board did not consider and analyze the arguments in secure says papers if merely credited dr for ease and based on credit with a full record which we provided through dr foreach this court's precedents are clear that the motivation to combine analysis must be searching and be specific and frankly if you look at the evidence that security provided to the board they did not arm the board with sufficient as defined in its favor if the board had i think that this panel would be rightly justified in vacating manicamp but the board of this panel need not do that because the board went a step further they considered all the evidence in the case law that says that references have to be physically combinable right know there is the best because they work with incompatible systems doesn't mean that you can't draw from the principles from the two references and then understand a way to combine the two principles assuming there's a reason to do so that russian service whether that whether the skilled artist would have been motivated by the teachers but it is relevant to consider the context in which those teachings appear and dr force provides this is one of the things the skilled person would have thought about  it well your patent describes this different gainsborough patent as a system for controlling monitoring recording and reporting telephone communications and the system deals primarily with the identification the user through user but and and restricting phone contact communications through a profile accessed by the pin and so all i'm saying is this particular gainsborough seems to show that there who was known in the yard to combine the notion of authenticating someone before they can access a telephone network along with the idea of monitoring recording reporting telephone communication trolling those telephone communications i just my comment on that is that it is not the case that security presented to the board or not relying on that gainsborough reference we have here is a combination of this exam is the base reference e and while not dispositive i think the punctuation of the sentence in some ways is helpful if we look at the during the imitation it ends in a colon i think therefore suggest that there are series of items that are follow that should be modified by that  access attempt stuff right in there and that can't be right either that's right that can't be right because if we look at the last three steps of monitoring at least one conversation that suggests the connection has been made and the access to th telephone network therefore if we granted the same to the recording of conversations and detecting the presence of creative term and key words in that conversation so those just as a matter of logic would have to fall outside that during an attempt to access a phase various burdens that have been assigned in the i p r the fur the border given the record that the parties present to it yes must make correct rulings but is always that as an alternative to voice recognition during connection so your can be assigned to a billing to account before the connection is established in this case the tell us when users requested to provide a voice sample and the connection is only that was once a voice sample we don't know whether that action happens after the grant or connection and we also don't know exactly when the in this case the first which pretty much provided by the user answers and i think the luxury of at this point if you look at problems of total abuse of telephone systems in controlled environments dr for is specifically stated that the two for three pat itself was not limited to the prison context so there's no reason to say oh reference it is just as dr for he says so and it and the board is required to reach the correct conclusion based on the disclosures of the references not just based on th telephone and then starts it and then it's only option then is to ensure the props the rest of the backend is kind that could happen after that attempt is made by the user so the user would gain access to the phone and then after having access to the phone you understand the claim to still then at that point call for voice recognition that the user actually wouldn't have access at that point to make the telephone call but the attempt  during that period  thank you thank you