and we are fortunate that there is also funding that college or township in the city have provided for in your five year plans to a shared amount of four hundred thousand and i stress up to that's one of the amendments to the resolution you have in front of you today and the remainder is available through fundraising efforts that i spoke of earlier based in the last year in the flattery of the community so i want to show you the route and then conclude with the recommendation and also signify that if anyone would like to still be part of raising we have more of these forms and there is an opportunity to be recognized on the island in terms of a monument that's will be under passage is for individuals pushing strollers to people and not motorized wheelchairs as well as walkers and bikers this this pathway around the island would be improved and restored it in disrepair now and with this is the bridge the primary component of the whole project would be across the river a boardwalk associated with crossing some attractive wetlands to river hills drive and then up to scott's driving points east west and north so along the way there will be a variety of amenities trailhead nodes benches  island gardens and the river and showing some of the trails and points north and south that where you're coming in eastern north or south you can get across the river in that  way this is a map i uncovered during preparing for this that i was unaware of these are all the public lands so she would not have a green way to date and of course is a long term plan to have the screenplay completed and then it would connect to their fred meyer k trail to grand rapids as well so in summary the recommendation is that you receive comments on women on gardens non motorized bridge and regional trip connections program relation to a grant application for three hundred thousand at these comments be included with the final application and secondly that you authorize the city manager in the parks or cemetery staff to make this grants metal my deadline is march thirty first township reviews the same resolution tomorrow at their meeting have you answer any questions are the questions for the city manager on this item this is the time of the place for a public hearing on this item and if you would like to address the council on this particular matter we did invite your step for the microphone state your name and residential address for purposes of the record and you may have up to five minutes under council rules to address us please feel free to do so because the public hearing is now and seeing no one we will close the public hearing we have a recommendation before us is their motion so moved moved by hoekstra support supported by de boer any discussion yes asses all right thank you but takes us to item twelve this is communications from the audience this is the opportunity for anyone in the public to address council on matters that do not otherwise show up on the agenda tonight so hypothetically if you're here for an ordinance dealing with oh say the keeping of chickens that will come up later in our meeting but if you're here for some of it isn't otherwise on the agenda we invite you to step forward to the microphone state your name and residential address for the record and as i mentioned a moment ago the council rules permit up to five minutes to address council and you'll see a little green light turn on immediately beneath me when you begin speaking when there's a minute left it will turn yellow and when it turns red your five minutes have expired term limited like representative i have spent several years in city government and now county government having spent twenty two years as a as civil city commissioner and mayor of hudsonville and now in my tenth year in the county board because of that service as an elected official a local elected official i am passionate about local control and home rule i believe our local county county commissions our city councils our local school boards and our township boards are local those closest to the people that are most the most efficient form of government and more in tune with the wants and needs of the people i believe that the state needs to give you as much power and autonomy as possible the legislature needs to eliminate unfunded and underfunded mandates they need to fix our roads and if we were at the store revenue sharing to the local units those are just some of the issues that i want to work on land scene and i w i was pleased to be in your st patrick's day parade saturday it was a fun time and i looked forward to meeting more many more of you in the weeks ahead thank you wonderful thank you mr commissioner i do you have a website by chance in case people are interested in finding out more  candidacy facebook the sites that my campaign website jim hall trip dot com which should be up the next couple weeks right very good ok well thank you for being here tonight we appreciate that thank you don't be a stranger the microphone is still open anyone else would care to address all right well then let us move along to page two which is in fact item fourteen easy one point one amendments ordered ordinance four point three dealing with pet fallen backyard chickens and for this  this discussion the city manager will be a part of this discussion and ultimately i think would be helpful for the city attorney to indicate what it is that we are actually voting on this evening in the potential ordinance amendment process so good evening mark and welcome backyard that the reason a backyard chickens a legal in the city of highland so city council has been working on this since the last probably last fall was the first time we started having some organize have backyard chickens and there was one couple who was in the audience here tonight that the jag knows kind of took the chicken by the horns so to say and in approach council last fall and so can we have a chicken is a pattern that kind of got the ball rolling with the the solo ordinance business here so sufis that to say there's been an awful lot of discussion about what last week and at that time it was decided to come up with basically a we'll call it a permissive option as far as ordinance language for you and then  with an option that could be maybe be characterized as being a little more conservative and on the screen here in front of you tonight that the permissive one so to say would be option one with the conservative one be option two and i can quickly read these and in move through these so you kind of get the gist of what's in the ordinance and in this is is very much a brief summary of the ordinance stuff so  the numbers on each of these are coordinated so a kind of go back and forth between them option number one would have a separate section that would allow one chicken duck or goose to be exception from the permit process item two is both the same for both of these options and that is the reason a backyard chickens would only be done on a non commercial basis items number three  are also the same and that is eggs in meat from chickens should only be used for property of residence item number four there is a difference  option number one would include a sliding scale for the number of birds that you would be allowed to have on your property and there would be a sliding scale for two to four birds and actually the way that the actual ordinance language would read that if you have the property of ram i believe it's a half acre in size or less you'd be allowed to have four chickens and if you have a property that's and size anywhere from a half acre to one acre if you get one additional bird for five chickens and then if you have over one acre in size residential property you could have six chickens and no roosters whatsoever on the other option would be looking at having four chickens maximum and also have the requirement that no no roosters are allowed  number five is the same for both of them outdoor slaughtering of chickens would be permit would be prohibited item number six is the same also would be require any covered coop in fence enclosure for the birds item number seven is different tonight i'm number seven for option one would allow chickens to roam so to say in one's backyard or on their property  if supervised in option number two would not allow the birds to roam per se they would have to be remain in their enclosures item number ten is just slightly different there are similarities in that it's saying that the coop in the enclosures for the chickens would only be allowed in the rear yards but then there's some minor differences in the set backs required for those for the enclosure number one states that you could have that within five feet of a property line and twenty five feet from a neighboring house whereas option number two would require a slightly larger set back from a property line that being ten feet from a property line and have the same twenty five foot setback from a neighboring house items number nine are the same and that is that the coop in the enclosure would have a maximum area of eighty square feet and be allowed to have an eight foot height for that and that would be a maximum then i believe items number  eleven twelve and thirteen are all the same and that is that the hoops and closures must be of quality construction materials they need to be constructed in a way that would prevent any kind of harboring of rodents any food that would be kept outside would have to be in sealed containers and it also would require compliance with the state  gams which are the generally accepted procedures for the raising of farm animals and we require the actual organs language would require compliance in so far as i would see here with the exception that if the actual ordinance itself is something different then then that would have supersede the state dams and item number fourteen is different and option number one would require  a permit yes requires a permit for anywhere from the two to four chickens and option number two would require it permit if you had any number of chickens on your property so that is a real quick summary of the two options here and you can kind of see the the different approaches in between both of those options so other don't we see here you know my guess my question is this and i think the assistant city manager and i have often talked about the raccoons in our old neighborhood and you know my neighborhood voles and things of that nature pretty question i'll try to answer it by by showing this photo here is kind of an example of of what would be a good way for somebody to try to minimize the amount of rodents you know i don't i don't think that there's anybody who has one of these is is going to probably be completely rodent three i mean mice and things they're going to go where they're going to go so i mean that the object is really to minimize them and into not create any problems with the photo that you have front of you here you can see that the coop is raised up off from the ground there's there's a fence enclosure there's really no walls so to say that are that are on the ground were rodents could maybe get into kind of a wall structure also the  enclosure itself is up off the ground so say if and if that was right on the ground or if there was some kind of a wooden deck or something like that i mean that would be kind of a prime environment for roads to live so you know to to get your directly to your question though i mean i think that we would if somebody came in with an application we would be requesting to see how that how they were looking to construct their enclosures and would have maybe some examples and in best practices for them to try to minimize any type of rodents in parts of the city just because of lot sizes and so the way the ordinance is written right now it would not automatically exclude that no i mean there might be some dependent i mean every property is going to be different as far as the size and in his far as the relationship to adjoining properties in the houses that are on those properties visual you notice i mean we do have some some setback requirements in here in specifically you know we're saying twenty five feet minimum set back of the hoop to any adjoining house so i mean there are there might be some smaller l we're somebody simply cannot locate you know an enclosure because it's got to be in the rear yard also and it's got to meet some minimum setback requirements and in the setback from adjoining homes so there might be some situations were it simply they're not going to have enough room but we do not have  ere we're basically saying if you know that you are allowed to have any either one of these options you would be allowed to have at least up to four birds any other questions mr city attorney could you please explain the process that we're undergoing this evening for both our information and for the information apparently well the the ordinances that are before the council you have the option one and option two these are these have been drafted as standalone ordinances and mr vander plaats has gone through trying to quantify the difference between the two counsel has a variety of options that you give go through tonight and you could put both of them for first rate in your dealing with a motion to put these on for first reading so you know how taking final legislative action tonight you could put both of them on for first reading if there are further issues you could table the motion to put them on for first reading or if the council wants to proceed with option one or option two they can also do that so there's a menu of things you can do and ultimately whatever gets approved for first reading in two weeks they'll be a public hearing for the actual adoption of that  before final reading passage all right thank you very much you know i think that i know that we have some folks in chamber so you want to speak on this issue typically our protocol is that we will have a motion put on the floor so that whether something specific for any one address to address comments too so at this time unless there are any other questions for staff i would be open to a motion and i believe the mayor pro tem is going to lead us off tonight yes mr mayor i would  doing right now so option one is what you're saying gratis right has been moved by the mayor pro tem and supported by cults member birch at this time it's appropriate for anyone in chambers who would care to address the care to address council this ordinance to do so again the i'm here tonight to speak in support of changing the city ordinance to allow a limited number of chickens or fall in the city limits this past week i bought a book on second gardening because of the beautiful the little girl that loves her second i feel that animals paths are an important part of our lives and that we have a lot to learn from them they help us do straus and a high stress environment it seems everywhere i go lightly whether it's a training session a restaurant or driving down the road people are either on cell phones playing video games or answering emails when i was coming home from work the other day i was listening to a radio talk show where a professional was speaking about multitasking and how our brains weren't really designed to handle so many things that one time i think getting back to nature is a good way to a healthy balance in life for both children and adults growing up i was taught to respect neighboring properties by not cutting the corners of a block or by walking across someone else's grass on my way to school the same holds true for animals they should not be allowed to roam off of your property i do feel they should be allowed to be outside was super vision animals need to stretch their legs dogs like to fetch a ball like chickens like to look for worms we live near the nature center chickens are in danger of being hunted by hawks foxes and reckons it's not a good idea to l them or unsupervised since my husband and i have had our chicken foggie we have received signatures from our neighbors surrounding our property supporting our efforts to keep or we received many positive comments from people walking past our home friends bringing their grandchildren to visit and the whole foggy strangers who have run about foggy stopping to see here we've even been presented with several chicken gaffes which to me sh we can't walk into church we're about at least five people asking us the voters second we've become known as the chicken man the chicken lady and the couple with the chicken and the last few months people have told me stories about animals that they've helped with a doc with one leg there's been a story about foxy in the puppy in the church that was found in a trash barrel who recently underwent surgery to have one of her eyes removed and a loving family who adopted her i think that we need to remember that having and caring for pets properly is a good thing we need to remember that a chicken coop constructed properly is no different than a dog coop or a child's play center in the yard when we were granted permission to keep until the requests for ordinance was received we had no choice but to have a warm safe made for her so she would make it through the winter my nephew developed an insulated four by four cedar coupe that's a manager replica of our home complete with window boxes and a ridge vent and shingles rough i have a picture of that here  call it the chicken palace and we need to remember that a dog run a cat litter box as well as a chicken coop needs to be cleaned of waste products on a regular basis to eliminate orders and  respect our neighbors properties by keeping our pets in our own yards we need to respect the noise levels of our animals i previously had a dog that i couldn't leave outside in a fenced in area because she barked all the time you your five minutes if you have some written comments that you'd like to present to the clerk we can really put them in the record or again in two weeks if you are going to be here again you can speak again on the site and if you'd like to do so  mean we generally don't permit or like outbursts in chambers so if you kindly refrain from doing that we'd appreciate the microphone is open for anyone else who would care to address council on the si years and i have known kant for fourteen years they live by the highest moral and ethical standards faggy their plymouth barred rock chick and couldn't have picked a better home to wander into she has thrived under their care some people keep cats and dogs and they become just part of the family faggy is can't and mary's family she just has to legs instead of four i hope she can live out i like to read my comments so i don't leave anything out proximately eight months ago i came front of this council and asked if you consider adopting a change to the ordinance four point three pertaining to animals and fall purpose of this request came about because for he wandered into our yard one day and decided to stay as time went on we developed a relationship with this chicken and i must honestly say that never in a million years what i have thought that i would have had a relationship with a chicken like i have with my dogs and my cats never but i do someone who we do not we do not know who reported us to the city and we were served a citation for having a chicken which was against  unbeknownst to us we did not know that there was a prohibition against keeping chickens once we found out we decided well we'd like to keep five so we decided to come in front of the council i asked that we be allowed to keep one chicken and included a copy of the ordinance from the city of muskegon and that's ordinance number six there are seventeen concerning livestock and poultry subsection b which states if i may no live poultry shall be kept in the city except in a commercial establishment legally license licensed and zoned therefore except that one pet may be kept in a pen or confinement which is at least twenty five feet from any dwelling it was and still is our contention that the current ordinance with the city was written to keep farms out not  s i ask that you consider favorably option one and hope that it passes thank you you thank  that our family thinks that would be ok to have have a pet has a chicken we think that would be ok and then as a lobbyist and sorts for mrs miller who could not be here tonight she wanted to convey and you may have an e mail from her as well that she wanted to convey distin in the spirit of backyard chickens urban chickens you know urban farming gardening you know extend expansion green landscaping that sort of thing that that the number of four might actually be a little bit more restrictive in that spirit than what would really serve the needs of eggs or meat for a family realistically i think she cited about three eggs per week per chicken so she's just suggesting that you know if you really had a family of three four five when you actually were hoping to get some chickens from the benefit you know of keeping them or some eggs from that if it is keeping chickens that might be a little bit restrictive i have no idea that you have any appetite to consider expansion beyond the four but just to make a comment in terms of the numbers the reality i think i believe the question of what's the point if we're going to have that you know  you know if you can have six or eight in the coop the size of four yeah pretty much what's the point if we're going to have that you know a dozen eggs what's the point so just a thought on that so i mean if you're going if you're just looking at the pet side i say hey cool have fun with the side and if you're going at it at the backyard chicken thing you might actually maybe want to consider if that number's substantial enough to be a benefit to the family that's for most things all right thank you and for the record your wife did send an e mail to the clerk's office and the clerk did forward it to all of us so we have received a copy of a microphone runs open for anyone who would care to address this issue been really excited just how council has dealt with the revisitation of this and i think it's really important moving forward that we're looking at this generally so thank you for that and i guess i guess probably moving forward i get excited about the idea of looking at this as an opportunity for backyard chickens and not just an ordinance for pets although i think the ordinance for pets is very important and  i believe that i believe that that that aspect is important as well i do think that chickens can be considered sort of a rent paying pet which is cool and i think  that basically i work for a nonprofit in holland and idea what a lot with seeing poverty levels and i'm also kind of in that gap of poverty level myself and so the idea of being able to present the community with another option of something that's a little more sustainable for income and knowing that our county has something like i think it's i'm not very good at public speaking so after i look at my n but like fifty six percent of the out of town in the county residents are claiming federal food assistance right now and the two one reports for this year were the number one requested service was for food pantry and i i also i am a farmer and do things like that so i get excited about the idea of seeing more of that sustainable thought process being introduced into our community and i do think it can be done respectfully ordinance ordinances that aren't that aren't just you know they're not disruptive to the community and arbor past one that's very similar to option number one in two thousand and six and i would consider an arbor a pretty beautiful and below city of michigan and i think that you can respect the aesthetics and pest control through proper maintenance and i think through ordinances and permits you can you can obtain that just because the people who are going to be interested in following those and getting the permits are going to be responsible considerate people and i guess that's pretty much the gist of what i'd like to say i thank you again for your good evening and welcome thank you my name is laura grant i live at twenty eight west eighteenth street i want to think the council for looking at both options for the pet following backyard chicken i'm in support of option one i think that there is a difference between having one pet follow and having multiple animals that will help provide food and  maybe fertilizer for your garden and i guess that's all i want to say thank you thank you and you want to you know you want to i can see it paper that it was something that holland was thinking of i know that it's been a really big struggle for my family to live in the city we've we've enjoyed that living in the city of holland for fifteen years but before that i was a farmer so we've struggled with wanting to leave the city often so that we could have chickens so i would really hate to lose out on the extracurricular activities that my kids are involved in they're both swimmers and involved in many sports and i know that as of right now i feel that we would have to decide between getting healthy food from living in the country versus allowing our kids to be involved in sports and i just feel like that's a that's kind of a coming battle that we have to deal with because i think they're both really important so i am very much in support of backyard chickens great thank yard really isn't a i mean it just makes sense to me i grew up with it it seemed like a kind of a way of life i was always kind of surprised that with farming so close to downtown holland that it wasn't something that people could do in in town i'm one of those people on your street that has got like you know lots of vegetables and as much as i can grow in my little yard i like to grow  just makes sense to me that we're in the car to me that's not fantastic we're talking about putting a bunch of money into walking trails around town bridges to connect people so they can exercise all the pets or food i mean chickens are sustainable option for a lot of people that don't have the luxury that a lot of you have of going to the grocery store in picking up whatever you want to whatever you want to buy whatever you want to there's a lot of people in town that are struggling i'm myself i'm an industrial designer out of work right now out of work right now and i have a wife that disability and i have a two month year old daughter so eating healthy is pretty important and when i go to the grocery store i'm not spending my money on you know preservatives some i'm trying to look for the best way to feed my family and i really think that this is a lot more i think having a pet i think that what raising an animal does for a family and for a community is this big it's important it could be something that holland is known for i think it also then gives us a good option for eating healthy and having a sustainable lifestyle so really hope everyone takes a long hard look out you know whether it's a pet whether it's food it's i think it's a great option when i look at where i want to be in five years i need to be somewhere that's open minded that is is willing to look at farming in an urban setting and having animals in an urban setting  that that's something that i look at and that about will affect my own my decision on where i live so i would only imagine that it's going to affect others so thank you thank you downtown and i have concerns about the boundaries restrictions twenty five feet from from your neighbors my aim my life i can do that i can't be ten  i can't be twenty five feet and have a clue from my neighbors my lot is right downtown in the historic district and it's a sizable lot but i'm not twenty five feet from and that's my concern with with both of them is that it's it's very restrictive for those of us who live in town like in the heart of town that we have it's twenty five feet and that's that's all all right thank you anyone else all right well thank you for those comments and assuming something passes this evening again in two weeks they'll be a public hearing before any final vote for any warden is to take effect but coun you've heard the motion that is on the floor for option a it's been seconded you've heard comments is there any discussion that you might like to have at this time or shall we call the vote and set it up for two weeks from now i'll remember  for mark if you could come up to the microphone  can you give us some clarification of the part of the step back that refers to twenty five feet from an adjacent hall trying to address some what  lewis has concerns so it it's not twenty five feet from a lot but the setback as i understand the way i hear it actually includes part of any neighboring property that is not covered by the home so if my neighbor's home is ten feet off their lot line that ten feet is included in the in the twenty five feet so yes it may not be quite as restrictive as what it sounds so i just want to to clarify that how much ability do we have to amend a proposal on second reading i've heard you say in the past that if you something about substantial changes you feel like it really needs to go back for an additional first reading you can to clarify that and refresh my memory and on your opinions on that a you know for instance let's say that you incorporated a option that of number two that would substantially change the character of the ordinance you you are going to have to hold a second public hearing on the ordinance now what's difficult is not doing what you have in mind by a subsequent amendment i don't think it's difficult to know if that's going to make that kind of material change well i would say generally though that there's a great latitude on the part of the council to amend the ordinance and the concept bean that this public hearing  the option for you to get input from the public can move the council feels that there is a change or modification the series a result of that or from further study by members of council individually you have the ability to do that ok well with those two answers let me just kind of let you know where i am i appreciate everybody who's come out and share their thoughts with us tonight  and i have heard from many other folks who are firmly in the camp of allowing this to move forward in the city  comments that we heard from our former colleague mr miller tonight i would like to see at least in the less dense areas of the city a bit more latitude and what i'm thinking i actually asked third floor to run a couple of calculations for me after a meeting last week i asked them how many given the nature of our sliding scale where we sort of divided up into half acre or last between a half an acre and full acre and in excess of an acre and then each one being able to bump up one bird parcels that are between half an acre and an acre and we have two hundred twenty one parcels that are over an acre it seems to me that given the relatively small number of those two larger categories it's not unreasonable to expand the number of  birds that would be available quite frankly i would be perfectly happy to simply particularly given the fact that there's only a little over two hundred in that largest category have to size restrictions based that up to a half an acre and more than a half an acre and a half an acre lot you know with  perfectly happy to see it go up to eight or ten so that's kind just where i am and we'll see what comes around with other comments from from other colleagues thank you thanks bob you answered one question and that was the setback issue because you have my lousy requite small i would have to have very narrow chickens in order to make this work i think so that was a good clarification i have about three of the questions and maybe mark your background be helpful in addressing these rituals and the matter of numbers on the option one that's been proposed here it's a sliding lot if you look at the coop and enclosure specifications the square footage is the same regardless of how many chickens you have so i'm guessing that allowing a greater number of chickens either assumes that you have inside on that mark why would we allow more chickens if you have greater area well you know i based a lot of the the rationale for the for the sliding scale and the ability to to recognize i mean that the different types of sizes of properties that we have in the city i also looked at you know some documentation like the m issue extension bulletin that said you know if a community is going to have urban chickens they really you know from their point of view say that four to six chickens should kind of be the target and that's that's what they are advocating for so it just i don't know it just it just seemed to me that a that if you're going to allow them in the first place i've also heard that you know aside from have been the one bird possibly as a pet if you're going to be having them and you want to have them for egg lane and in meat that really you need to have four of them to make any to make it worthwhile because you do have fixed costs and it's just whether you got two birds  four birds you still got to give water every day and i mean there's there's all of that animal husbandry stuff that goes along with it so you know i guess i just basically said you know i mean if you've got a little bit bigger property maybe vehicle to allow some more bird something and you know everything that i've heard is is basically saying that you know that if you just have the hands they do not make noise i mean they can make noise if they get excited whatever but just they really do not make a whole lot i mean you know todd is very knowledgeable about chickens and stuff but i mean if you have them in smaller numbers noise really isn't an issue you know i suppose there can be some odors from time to time it's if somebody doesn't properly maintain you know their coop and keep it clean so maybe you know the more birch you had maybe having a little bit more room does make sense i think there's a rationale for ok well i'm glad you brought up husbandry of the puzzle been three issue because i was another question  recommendations is the issue of properly vaccinating these chickens and staying on top of their health issues part of those recommendations yes there that the games to talk about you know proper nutrition watering them every day you know keeping the warm in the winter but keeping them healthy too i mean if you sometimes they do need to be vaccinated so they may have to go to a veterinarian too but i mean if you're if you're properly maintaining them and they don't get sick in the first place then they're always probably going to be healthy birds but yes those those games do address a lot of those issues now we're really kind so we are saying that rick requiring compliance with the state games who are not really saying that they should we say this the games are kind of from what i understand are more of kind of guidelines for the for the raising of chickens to serve the state gamp certain guidelines and worth reading requiring them to follow guidelines i mean it's just that it's guidelines for the best way for  all to raise their chickens oh well thank you the other thing that came to mind was the issue of option number one of this roaming and and the supervision of chickens which are used to this point i still have a difficult time wrapping my head around honey you supervised chickens other than with regular performance reviews and positive feedback a bad joke that some of us share it i'm sure there are a number of people who would if they allow their chickens to roam outside of the pen but keep an eye out to make sure they didn't fly around or run visions and maybe it was just because i was a very young lad at the time but my job on the farm was to bring feet out to the chickens and there was no way there was any supervision of those rascals  a little bit not as free roaming but there are other designs that are actual moving of the whole apparatus from one location to another so if you azure were using this in conjunction with a garden or something you c it before we get any more references to my experience with chickens my colleagues know least for the past two years that we've seen this one coming i grew up from about here to that door there away from a decent size chicken coop i will concede we had roosters so any knowledge slash nightmares that get referenced as forth that's what we're talking about mark i want to go a little bit deeper on this supervision that  i didn't see anywhere in here where we're defining supervision and i know we talked about it in the study session as far as what that could be but my reservations are again based on some experience e supervision because it seems to me this is or is that in possibility we we did not define that so i mean i think we just kind of take it on the the general definition of of supervision ok in what we wouldn't be implying with i mean it would be implied that somebody is going to be out there watching them but i can certainly see somebody saying well i'm keeping an eye on him from you know my neighbor's yard or whatever yes ok and then relative to coop an enclosure size  anything magical about those numbers and again referencing my own experience we didn't have one that was over it was a it was a shelter and then with a run off the back that had a little bit more space than what you're describing there i would say it's roughly twice the size of what you have described there i'm asking this primarily because it's no secret two years ago i would have been a pretty quick no on this but i find myself moderating and staying open minded but my question is this you know we're still a city i mean this is still a city it's not an ag district so with all due respect we have  heights on fences for reasons and this is two feet higher than any fence we allow in our city limits and you know my balance point on this is considering the folks over the past few years that probably wouldn't be consistent with some of what we heard tonight my first experience with urban chickens was when want to dave's neighbors bought me coffee and said hey i woke up one morning and in there were nine chickens on my front porch when i went to get my morning paper and they went ahead and def akkad on that front porch as well so i want to find a balance somewhere in here that the bigger some of that out is there anything from a height perspective that says eight needs to be there or we can play around with that number i think that number can be played around with eight feet was suggested  by some folks that i got e mails from in regards to this but i think that six feet would also work i mean it allows the coop you know we had the one photo it allows it to get up off from the ground i think that that would be fine  you know that way if you're thinking in terms of you know if your neighbor's got a six foot residential fence this isn't going to be higher than that it's not going to be poking above that so you wouldn't see it this far as the square footage of the coop in kind of the enclosure area of the i'm a shoe extension bolton talks about it the enclosure area being an eight by eight foot area so that's that's sixty four square feet there were a number of of other communities in the state that have that obviously had back air chicken ordinances  a max that you would kind of be comfortable with again in your mind is there any danger in floating that up a little bit past eighty square feet you know if somebody has got a larger lot probably not you know i mean that the smaller ones a lot is you know than the more that well that might be self regulating then they you know the more chances are it the enclosure to be closer to somebody's house or to the property line i guess you know i wouldn't want to get too carried away with with the size you know is eighty six eighty square feet seem to be reasonable sixty four squeak sixty four square feet could be a reasonable you know i i'm kind of an educated about the size requirements but i would i would think that maybe one hundred square feet might be you know the top i something about it just seems that that would be a ten by ten would be a pretty large area especially if you're looking to apply that for a central neighborhood areas thank you  someplace that most chickens live in this about this big an area and most for most chickens in the united states they cannot even turn so have we put anything in there is and you must have it  i can certainly look into that before the next meeting and i believe that the state dams have some guidelines in there as far as minimum barriers but i can look into that further commission this question came up as well and i think we're down to it mark maybe i feel like we had this discussion of how many birds are possible the comfort level being that four to six being a nine the commercial size or scale and i don't want to speak for the rest pushers i'm on the planning commission but that was one of the concerns that this is not this is for is extension of pat's is you know the two are the two dogs it's it's not something where we're going to get into production as a commercial enterprise or the meat production is a commercial enterprise and i think my biggest concern is that when you add more fall to the max it adds t possibility that it would be it would become a commercial enterprise and i'd not sure i'm sure that's what we want the intent of this is supposed to be so i think that's why the four to six is there to six is there i would just comment that both of the options that are before us clearly state that this is on a noncommercial basis so our clear intention is that it not be a commercial enterprise this is for basically family use and some people have bigger families and some people eat more eggs than others and we don't have a limit on garden size or how big a garden vegetable garden people can have so i think  a slightly more tolerant standard for number of birds isn't unreasonable sometimes it seems like each one of these items can turn into a huge deal i guess i would like to go by the recommendations from michigan state  also i liked ryan's principle of a little tighter initially can be more relaxed in time rather than a little too relaxed and then trying to get the chickens back in the coop could be a lot harder  but i would say option number one seems seems reasonable to me even if it's the the lighter of the two options  guess i'd rather stick with four to six to start with and then increase it later if everything goes fine vegetables usually don't smile a whole lot and don't attract and i know you're supposed to cover your food and put it in sealed containers and all that but i think the potential for road in attraction is much higher with with chickens and with than with vegetables so i guess i would rather stick with option number one and and it makes sense to me the way it is appreciate all your work on it comment relative to your question of energy and what may come with so i'll try to do this is simply as possible i would like to make the motion that we adopt option one with the following changes we strike number seven and remove the ability of roaming i would like to add the set backs referenced in option number two so instead of a five foot setback from the property line i would like ten and i would like us to consider a six foot maximum coupe height as opposed to eight all right you've heard the offered amendment by our colleague is there support for support all right there is support for it so we are focused only on the amendment which is again to deed leads the roaming  issue and i don't one which is number seven in it is to change from eight to six the height and to change from five to ten the property line setback but are all right any discussion of those items comes from the board does that take some properties out of the possibility of having ticke s i don't know the answer to that i i firmly believe again going back to the notion that it is still a city it's still urban bikes it's very fabric we i don't think anything we do is going to capture every property and give it everything it wants you know it's the it's in these type of situations where we're still we're seeking to find that balance and that's what i'm trying to do here is  find a balance between those that absolutely embrace this that have spoken tonight and those that have also maybe not here tonight but you know we've encountered those folks and again trying to keep this in balance  i mean you're more of a farming person than i meant i am i am i chicago girl so i'm just i like to each a consenting ex stuff and learning a lot through all of this i was also wondering i forgot to say mark is it possible for you to help mary lewis with her question about her property and whether she could have a coop and within the guidelines that we decide ok thank you that there would be great mr mr mayor just so helpful is understand if the proposed amendment passes again the ordinance as of the end it goes to first three and then  to provide you with some of this data all this does is it just sets us up for fun or even a passage and you're going to be able to tweak it or amend it at that time also ok thank you because if it's recovering pets i don't know i'm just asking for he's not going to roam and get what you're saying because i would have a hard time sorry i just think in structure pardon me the structures that we've seen from from mark's presentation have that movability capacity i don't think we're setting a situation up here where foggy wouldn't be ever be able to be outside of the enclosure again i don't get the sense that that's one that we're going to be policing to the nth degree  so i can't speak to enforcement again i'm just speaking as to how i offered it up all right the amendment is before us the amen dykstra now motion fails three yes and six now all right so we're back to the original motion any final thoughts comments offers of amendments i think this ordinance has run a fall he just wants to hear this has been waiting a long time so that you know folks you know we started out with one check and i'm a pet person always have been i was the one advocating for three dogs for a long time that got shot down you know pets are pets mary you said it very well but we've gone from one pet chicken to now possibly up to  ten todd we are in the city couldn't couldn't agree with you more we've got to keep that in mind i have sympathy for people that are trying to make ends meet  know trying to to be the best for their families that they can bottom line is we're a city green with me if you will or not we're in a city there are co ops that could possibly be taken you know working to co ops and bob your analogy with the farm we don't have research the gardens we don't have restriction i guess i don't see the at the analogy there because there i want to see a chicken  rooster comparison apples oranges whatever i have to to me is a little bit too conservative or too too liberal i could but i could live with that with a four chicken max i don't know that i can support option one i really don't i think it's just getting too large too out of hand i'm doing ok in two weeks the first meeting of the month of april seven o'clock here again they'll be a public hearing on it and if it is approved or if something is approved at that time it will then take effect there after usually within thirty days twenty one days some days after that that would be the time it which a vote would actually cause it to take effect right free to stay if you want to but we also understand that perhaps you might rather not the will move on to item one wire and they're both available in the audience should there be questions the ordinance simply recognizes that and private property graffiti happens the same as it does on public property sometimes public property there is a process that is well oiled and works extremely well thanks to the efforts of the community neighborhood services especially sue harder and a contractor he she works with on the other hand if it's on private property it's unknown exactly there is no requirement that it be removed the city has no ability to do so legally so this ordinance would provide the opportunity for the city to give notice to the private property owner that it exists have a time of five  between which it can be removed if it is not removed then have the ability to remove it accordingly using in all cases either the or the city workman like standards and november lastly there may be situations that are considered emergencies whereby there is incendiary language profanity sexually explicit language or threats in which case the city would have the right under this ordinance to property have the right to do that graffiti is defined as any sort of edging painting drawing put on your property by someone other than the property owner sell your art opinion i got in my car or less couple of days and rode around the city of holland for about an hour and back and forth east and west north and south and i want to compliment the city of holland and sue harder and her group and fillin who over us worked with us i did an excellent job i had a really hard time finding graffiti and i finally found one piece of graffiti and i'm sure th probably did there are others and it was down an alleyway on some street and it was on a back of a garage that was hard to find so it appears that what we're doing a new at this point in juncture in time is working pretty well and perhaps we may be able to beef that up with more support from nonprofits or from churches or from whatever obviously nobody likes graffiti except maybe the people who do it but if you've ever had graffiti you you've got your property has been violated and this is this is not a good thing the question becomes a person is a victim and they become a victim again if we are going to require them under this particular ordinance to repair it and they could be hit again and again there seems to be in my mind a difference between graffiti that's in a very public open place where we want it fixed very carefully and he read totally versus i see graffiti in the back alleys and some places on garages or rickety fences that are about ready to fall down that have been painted over and blotches and if we're going to be doing this work hundreds of dollars and this could happen on a repetitive basis i don't know exactly what the answer is but i'm really concerned about putting that kind of pressure on people who may or may not have the finances and probably don't to eradicate something at that particular level when it wasn't their fault begin with i just think that this is t constrictive it's i think we need to rethink that through and perhaps come up with a better solution to do it so i'm concerned about that mr conference is exactly right this is well overdue what we have to remember is that this is a definite health safety and welfare type of issue i fully understand what you're saying about some people can afford to do it our intent is not to intentionally just say it's got to come off we are there to help the people not make it a hinderance we don't want this to fester i don't care if it's on the back of a telephone poll that only three people are going to see in your lifetime it's graffiti it's bad and it's going to foster more i've had to in one of the buildings that i'm responsible for in my job every summer at least twice a summer we have to go in pain all over again and this is up on the rooftop on the back of the building where very very very few people see it but it's still go come down because once it's marked it's going to get continued to be marked somebody is going to have to in some of the examples it's you head you get somebody put something up there and somebody's got to retaliate well yeah maybe in this back alley but this gang don't like this they're going to put their mark over the top of it because this guy's not going to get one of twenty you don't get rid of it it's not going to take care of itself it's only going to get worse the intent and we've been talking a lot of intent with her ordinances having probably more discussion on first readings than we've ever had any three ordinances i can ever remember in seventeen eighteen years on here but we've got to make sure that we're taking care of the problem before it gets too big that's the intent the intent again as i said i'm repeating myself but the intent was not to put the burden on somebody that couldn't afford it because i know sue and her crew and some of the non profits and so on and so the forth that which you talk to they're going to be there to help the city's not going away from the great job that they've been doing there to aid but the responsibility should not be on us either because we're also going to have the other side of it what the heck should i do anything about it  said he's going to come around to do it free of charge why should i make an effort bad news so as i said before and i'll say it again and continue to say that this is long overdue i think we need it we need to help keep the city clean we need to make a statement to the people that are doing this whether the doing it taking wise just because they like to or because they're trying to make a statement we don't want the statements around here we don't want this kind of blight if you will now gentlemen came up and asked what's the difference between graffiti and art well there's we had this discussion a number of years ago with a building on thirteenth and the maple a lot of people said it was graffiti i don't know art from a hole in the ground i'm not built that way i can't see the abstract  i do know when i see graffiti oh are there some bad bad stuff out there and we don't need to be fostering  copycats we don't need to be fostering retaliation we don't need people to be marking their territories and that's exactly what's going on just like a dog we've got to stop it and if it takes this amount of effort to do it our city is going to be better off in the long run because of it and we will be there to help the people that need the reaction that you had wayne of wow you're the van you're the victim and now you've got to pay to get it fixed and i think there's something that size pretty harsh about that but i was convinced by the police and  e and others around the around on the neighborhood committee that came up i think with this recommendation there that forwarded this to us about just the importance of what mike is saying getting it nipping it in the bud and i would like to think that in the application of this ordinance which i think is is something we need to do there's a lot of discretion on the part of the staff when they go out up a fence and you just can't paint it or make it look like workman like condition are we really going to force somebody to replace that whole fence so the the application of how we  force the ordinance and what we're trying to accomplish here i think like many of our ordinances have to have some degree of of i think some really good judgment on the part of our staff and i think they have to step we have right now there's a very good job of i think every day they exercise judgment in some of these things so i think we're going to have to have a lot of that and in this in making sure we follow through with the oh come from a divorce also grateful for that time period that has gone into making this recommendation these are not staff people that came on the job three weeks ago and said oh is a problem let's do something these are people that have worked through this issue for some for decades and seen how develops how it gets worse how you can handle it in a better way and they really have a lot of background and heart and wisdom so when they come with a recommendation that like this that is reaped from years of experience i think it's well worth a try and i do think they will administer it with grace and be careful that the that the individuals who are c victimized are also continually supported because it's for the betterment of all of us for the entire community that this type of billboard doesn't get encouraged and is squelched as quickly as possible i think the problem with the the last way we've been handling things is there's just too much time that between each of the steps and there wasn't anything in place that gave them the authority to take action  in and therefore stapp any cappie cats or encouragement of a complete area of graffiti so i really appreciate the level of experience that goes into this and license for five dollars actually permits the word and that's to ensure that the requirements are here too especially time and location ok thank you any questions for staff  encountered issues in other spaces or just farmers markets are we having counted from time to time issues and we've dealt with them on a case by case basis and usually at that moment or for your hearing about it after the fact we address it directly with the street performer that may be offending a particular rule or a complaint that we received from someone downtown or a merchant account but yes from time to time we do ok and if it's in here and i missed it i apologize but the permitting process do we do do we did do that for the downtown performers as well yes we do we provide permits in the downtown office on an annual basis so that's a little bit different than what's being proposed that would be a weekly permit and the downtown office issues the permit directly out of our office and that's good from the day that they they get the permit until december thirty first of that particular year so it could be good for an entire year for two months or six months depending on when they come in and ask for the permit and so just so i'm understanding you correctly the folks that are performing right now in the market area are not part of the normal permitting they are currently and what's being proposed  separate the two so that the market master manages those performers that are at the farmers market only and all of the rest of the performers follow it under the rest of the downtown and the doesn't need to locations that have been  amplification it currently isn't allowed for any of the street performers however we can give exception to performers wishing to have amplification within the downtown and the farmers market is suggesting and requesting that that not be  and that it just simply not be allowed within the farmer's market area because it's a little bit different scenario than in the downtown where there's requirements in the ordinance that have the performers so many feet away ten feet away from a business  e an open door a sidewalk cafe so it kind of keeps some of the noise level of amplification away from where business is being conducted but yet still provides a vibrant atmosphere within the downtown the farmer's market is slightly different because all the business activity is all exposed and there isn't any enclosure so it's difficult sometimes for the vendors to hear their customers to interact with them to sell them product answer questions etc and so that's why the request for amplification to not be included is with written within this ordinance so those would be the that that change along with the extraordinary extraordinary activities are also requests in that that not be allowed to occur in that area as well for similar type of reasons one question in article six section thirty to forty six rules and regulations i was wondering what your perception was or if you would like to have some powers to the downtown us the downtown it is there a way that you could pull that back learning more information than it is that a power that you might feel would be a good one for you to have we've had that included in the ordinance for some time now and it really just provide us an opportunity as someone falsifies information knowingly falsifies information that we can address that once if we learn that that has occurred to my knowledge we haven't had any instances of that being an issue it's more been related to other rules or from time permits or you know language obscenity is or things like that that we're encountering but at it's good to have that in there just in case there's an issue with that i'm going to thinking of it as more it's the day of the presentation in your down there and what you're seeing is not what you thought you were going to get so that you would be able to approach that person and say this is not what you said it was going to be therefore you need to stop this at this juncture or you know i don't see that happening likely it would all depend on if it was something if they had amplification when we didn't allow it and they're down there projecting music and allowed man or you know if someone says that they play drums and they come with the flu i'm not going to say now nevermind we're going to take your permit away because you're using a different instrument than what we had agreed to that we're flexible and we certainly understand actually a lot of our performers every talented and play multiple instruments so sometimes they might miss one that's on the permit and and that's ok we just address it as needed and we have to adjust the permit as well so i don't see that being an  issue one of the problems in the having that kind of broad discretion is that you really get into an argument over potential content issues and first amendment rights so i think we feel comfortable with the way the ordinance is currently drafted so that we we can review their perspective without putting something in the might be challenged under a context  place one of the other considerations that was brought to the farmer's market committee was kind of local control there are certain circles where the street performers perform along the line of the farmer's market and you have a lot of congestion with people and sometimes a performer likes to stay on their circle for over their half hour stint in they're supposed to rotate and so they wanted to have a little more authority given to the market master who's on site it's your turn to move and just keep everything going more the way they want to control it at the market in in conjunction with the way a market functions but still have the ambiance of performers well vote for this but i do think that between now and second reading i am not crazy about having a different set of rules for the market versus the worst of the general rules i understand keeping the market manager is the person in charge of the space because that's what they at hockey but you know these performers come in they perform occasionally just lets keep it simple as keep the administration simple when you're at the market you deal with one person when you're at on a street you deal with another set of and the personal is keep it simple like that but i would suggest we consider revising that issue before we see final passage because if we don't i will be in support of it please call the whiteman fund from society for the preservation of old mills two thousand dollars the richard and helen divorce foundation two hundred fifty thousand dollars contribution to the fire division from von bank a five hundred dollars contribution to holland youth connection program from the alliance of four cultural ethnic harmony in the amount of one hundred dollars from judyth in the amount of two hundred fifty dollars in from cunningham dolman one thousand dollars in a contribution to the i r c multicultural connections from dinoire one hundred dollars and for the alliance for cultural and ethnic harmony one hundred dollars as well  donations be accepted with appreciation credited to the appropriate counts an expression of gratitude be for we all know this and i was only half kidding when i told greg he had better you know rest his voice because he a long list of donations this time around however that being said obviously there was there was one gift on that list which substantial ways and that of course is the one by the device family a richard and helen and it is a tremendously generous gift on their part to the project here you know they really are ins they do have a place along the lake shore and their children have certainly property in holland the devices have been very generous in so many west michigan activities and of course beyond but certainly west michigan activities and they have been people who are very interested in culture and in parks and in dutch heritage and so we are very very privileged to be the recipient of a generous gift from them you know we will send them a  sincere very personalized letter expressing our appreciation but we don't want to let it go past without making some sort of indication in this meeting tonight that we recognize this is a great and wonderful gift which goes a long way toward finishing up the private fundraising effort on the island and the other comments on the gifts nancy please i think it's really great that the donations spanned from one dollar to a quarter of a million dollars and every one of them came from a generous heart that cared about our community and it's just an amazing community to be a part of and it's such an honor and privilege  to be able to serve on a team like this and to be a part of a community where everybody says it's not so much his job i want to be a part of making things better here and so we're very grateful to every one of the people that contributed it's very very humbling to look over that list while brother birch has reminded me that in my comments i did make a bit of a mistake  regardless the rest of what i said about them their generosity to us and to many many other places throughout west michigan and beyond certainly is accurate and their gift is greatly appreciate communications from the city manager thank you mr mayor i have three items one we have a long time between our meetings in april we're normally would have a meeting on april sixteenth it's scheduled for a budget study session we still have a meeting on april sixteenth because we do have some actions items that need to happen yet we normally cancel the tulip time meeting in the first week of may i think so that leaves us six weeks before the next meeting between april sixteenth and middle of may so with that i've been we have people think about this and they've advised me that if we think about it we might want to have a meeting on april twenty ninth so that there's not such a long time in between and i would just advise you of that thought and i'll be working with mayor on that to see what you think going forward and we w plan accordingly next item is we're getting phone calls of up rush pick up there's as greg said we are the snow is going away but it hasn't gone quite yet so people wonder what to do because pick up begins on march twenty second and it goes through that you can put materials on the curb weekend of april fifth and  everyone is supposed to have completed that so we can make sure we get it all removed so what to do it's our suggestion that people begin to put pressure on the curb and it will be picked up starting the twenty second  and we are expecting that the weather will cooperate a bit more between now and april the way that we can in april and however should we not be the case just sometime before that time and announce an extension so steady as she goes is the message on brush pick up the third thing is we do have crews that work at potholes and if you have one that is especially come to your attention please let us know so we can bring it to our attention transportation department or the city manager's office thank you or the app to get the app for the on line reporting feature are you limited to one you have an unlimited opportunity all right communications from the mayor this evening a wonderful parade this past saturday kudos to the organizing committee who put together one of those newer traditions that is a lot of fun and was well attended even though it was a wee bit chilly the brush and leaf pick up the spring cleanup but does not include chunks of ice so keep that away from your brush piles we will not pick those up that pick up is in august yes who says  can't be bad here on a wednesday also in a special meeting we had at five thirty tonight with the board of public works and the city council we undertook some quite momentous decisions we actually sold bonds totaling nearly one hundred sixty million dollars which of course will go to pay for the new power plant we've talked about this for a while and in many ways we fully expected to go through with the sale this evening but what we didn't know well we knew going into this evening going into this week really that we had received very good ratings from two or three rating agencies we had assurances from people who know the market quite well that these bonds would be well received and we felt confident that they would sell quickly yesterday was the retail sale and essence the sale that the general public could could participate in and the board of public works sort of informally had hoped to sell about twenty five million dollars worth  subscribed twenty five million dollars worth of those bonds yesterday to the general public some local maybe not some not so local but certainly the individual kind of investor when the day was over we had closer to sixty million dollars in subscriptions for those bonds which of course made us feel pretty good so today we had the institutional sale and it took an hour hour and a half or so but we sold out and subscriptions were fulfilled in fact oversubscribed in some instances and here's the really exciting piece not only was there great demand but the final interest rate is right around the four point zero eight percent amount when you look at all the various issuances it or all the various classes and in maturity dates of the bonds so that is a pretty incredible rating and  pretty incredible interest rate what we're told tonight is that such that interest rate is very comparable with bonds issued secured by the entirety of the state of wisconsin or the state apparatus of the state of wisconsin  sold at roughly the same interest rate as as what ours did on the revenue basis for this b t w powerplant which is i think really speaks incredibly well of the strong position the b p w the attractiveness of these bonds in the marketplace and ultimately will speak well for the the success of the project and the cost savings to our community brother whiteman has a background finance and he had indicated based on some rough math i think you said the  predicted interest rate versus what it actually sold that right off the bat saves saves about three hundred fifty thousand dollars in interest there we go good stuff so congratulations the board of public works congratulations to the city and most importantly congratulations to the rate payers of the helen board of public works we're going to be able to continue to provide excellent electrical services with great reliability at rates that are not only affordable but more affordable than competing utilities a great day for i'd love snow but i'm glad to see it go but that brings up the how do i put the some of the blight in the ugliness that goes when the snow goes we have a new club in town called the p club and i think it's time that people are getting outside they're getting out walking around and they can start helping their neighbors and helping their neighborhoods and helping beautify the city by becoming a member of the put club the only thing that you have to do to become a member of the putt club is pick up trash that's what it stands for when you're out in your walk you're out on your stroll whatever the case may be take a little bag along with it there's a can there's a bag there's whatever around the get up put it in throw it away this is going to officially kick off with a big brouhaha on earth day which is april twenty two but we have designated if you look at your city calendar which everybody holds dear to their heart i'm sure the third sunday of every month there is a reminder there just pay a little bit more attention to it this year and just help with your neighborhood help with your city become a member of the put club thank you mike anyone else and emotions are resolutions this evening we did remove all of the ordnance items so we i think also remove them on the first reading  here can we prove these by voice vote or do they have to be bush voters ok right so we will do no will do will do individually just for the sake of because i know they were not approved unanimously or we went through them before so one thousand a which is the to the street performer issue motion plates motion to put all right move whiteman support a bunch of any discussion on favor say aye post same day that passes as well which i believe leaves us what with but thing to focus on at this point and that is of course to adjourn is there a motion to that effect so there was supported by peter's is there any discussion well in favor of doing so please say i oppose the same we stand adjourned good evening