the relationship between paragraph seventy two which is that relied upon paragraph by the board and paragraph seventy seven seventy eight seventy nine paragraph seventy two refers to three concepts for enrichment one of them is enriching for shorter molecules because if you don't the n a which is scarcer tends to be shorter is using formaldehyde because that suppresses maternal d n a therefore making the feel of the n a more prominent and three in and know that what's relied on by the bird is enriching for christmas songs and that the reason i highlight these three different versions is because if you correspond them the paragraph seventy seven seventy eight and seventy nine of lot and this is done j a ten fifteen intense sixteen there's a direct correspondence and it's very clear paragraph seventy seven the first back to seventy two and as mentioned before you can enrich and it's paragraph seventy seven corresponds to enrichment for fetal letter fetal d n a the shorter seventy eight corresponds directly to suppressing maternal with formaldehyde and seventy nine corresponds directly to the chromosome approach which is what's the basis for the invalidation of the pattern and if you look at that paragraph seventy nine again this is j ten sixteen it makes two it at seventy nine amplifies and describes paragraph that first concept in seventy two but let me get to the technical reasons i think that's what you're looking for not only the description the pattern in that militant declaration fifteen which is  thirty sixty one this is what's relied upon by the board to support the interpretation that you're giving us at least preserve your question i'm giving and i trust well that's that's a question still still being discussed  it's described in the end the picture at the bottom a picture of the picture is worth a thousand words describes how she interprets paragraph seventy two the sentence that you focused on and what you see from that is that a base pairs with the low whitman and that's again their own expert testified to this and so if you're only grabbing thirty of the two hundred just using those numbers as rough rough terms the odds of you even getting th so arguable pre defined is very low that's why everyone considers that random sequencing because you throw in a whole bunch of d n a you don't know what you're going to get and you figure it later informationally as compared this to quake so at eight two five five professor martin explains random is if you are sequencing data that is not the selected sequence itself so she's saying if you include this other material and we can look at that if you want to that passage that could be can't consider random so basically describes using p c r actually capture the specific sequence that you're targeting and then sequence in only that and part of this goes to the entirely different philosophy the philosophy of allow this in the background section is that the fetal d n a is so scarce that you want to d n a just get as much genetic information as you can and ran and then in the summ adventures of random sequencing gets you that three teaches you that rate by contrast in comp thirteen fourteen says well if you really focus down and you selectively capture only the predefined sequences then you're saving yourself the burden of the what they're calling random sequence and you not only sequencing the pre determined sequence now what's important also here to know is this is the other half of the equation your honor is that we disagree on claim construction happy to talk only the predefined sequences is sequenced so can you explain why claim nine isn't a basis for a claim differentiation argument putting aside what we all know which is that claim differentiation doesn't medical i mean i was going to go to a different way which is there's so much evidence that this claims limited the targeted sequencing since everyone said it both sides attorneys have said it i don't think it's a fairly debatable issue that's why i don't really want to focus on that too much in oral argument are happy to answer undercut understand claim one two ways you could understand it that they're for to a type of sequencing a technique that's particular technique that's used so there's a way to harmonize that that you know it if you work at harmonize if that's the way to harmonize it but i sequencing is a term that doesn't appear in the patent and has a kind of in formality to it can you describe it in extremely precise precise terms do you mean that you out you identify only the pre determined sequences and claimed nine there's no way to harmonize that and i know up and this being a court of review i think that in order of to rehash all that for you that all out if anything that would go back down but paragraph i thought you were distinction about claim nine was that pre selected sequences has to do with identifying what your sequencing in clay nine selective sequencing has to do with how you go about the process of counting and identifying what's in some pool which if you put those if you maintain that distinction what your secrets in how you're doing it yet why can't you do random sequencing of a predefined so for example next sunday at santa clara stadium they're going to be seventy thousand people and in the stadium and i've got a pre defined and let's assume each person has a single fan loyalty any each one if asked well identify the family w here's my predefined sequence i want to know jaguar fans and titans fans that's different from either asking everybody who are for randomly selecting but why can't you do a random selection  then you can front do with how many jaguar fans by sequencing i mean we're getting a little far field what the approaches of law is if you see a jaguar fan read the whole route and then see who all the people are and figure it out from there and then at the end will by the score i have not heard any argument that there was no evidence supporting what the board concluded in fact the board's reasoning is quite extensive it spans over ten pages looking at all the evidence in the record the court made clear the looked over the declarations of and deposition testimony of all of the experts and based upon that it reached its conclusion and i am right that your closing coun referring to your experts admission i'm looking at what i think he's referring to it's j a c thirty three twenty nine for your expert only sisto and i guess seventy nine is a further discussion i mean it seems like less than a got that from the i guess part of the of the of the testimony i don't think paragraph seventy nine can resell be read as requiring that you use quote random sequencing in fact if you look at the end of paragraph seventy two it says i sequences is just that you're doing it for you continue my football metaphor the broncos fans which are going to be a whole lot bigger pool in santa clara on sunday than the jaguars from that's correct think of it chromosome that's just too big really to be a predefined sequence within claim one what's what's your answer to that so that yeah the entire chromosome would make no sense to be a pre defined seventy two as not talking about getting the whole chromosome that particular sequences that you know sit on particular chromosome to back up what goes on to say that you have looking for fragments some of the fragments which are in the sound and i mean what is what this is making me think of and maybe incorrectly is the passage from i guess the morton declaration that has the little drawing at the bottom can even make these probes we know what colors on twenty one looks like that's why we can create a probe with a certain number of base pairs and we actually know what's on each side of the probe but the important thing is the probe is going to pick up scientific knowledge i wasn't afraid selecting predefined some sequences in order to have meaning have to exclude the possibility that everything you're sequencing is something that's predefined because you could look it up in you know in a human genome map i think i know the i think this the answer your question if i understand it correctly there is an extraordinary amount of information as a result of the human genome project about the sequence of the chromosomes that is the entire basis for engaging in the sequencing you can now actually look at a random sample where you don't know beforehand what in there it could be little bits of the most one nine fourteen sixteen that's called shotgun sequencing and using and alumina sequencer for example you can figure out exactly what is in your sample the sequencing knowledge and the blair looked at this and said that this actually is a subset of the information that's available we don't care about the entire chromosome we actually are going to create some windows along each chromosome  the numbers you get from something like this so it's something you get like this it's a little more complicated than that i think the windows do at least several things the first is they exclude something which is not very interesting if you don't care about the centromere you don't care about the  more frequently and the problem is you have to account for that because otherwise it looks like you've got too many hits along one particular promise on what in fact it's not over represented so it's a way basically of engaging some with a pat about what's in these predefined windows but of course as the board found you've been under the interpretation advanced by stanford which is by the way exactly the opposite of what it said to  find that evidence to support the board's decision i think the answer the question is clear it reasonable person could find that evidence sufficient to support the board's decision it's not a matter of whether or not somebody could argue the case differently somebody can always every single example so thank construction the issue really comes down to one question which is do the claims cover all of the before them by humans we're just talking fourteen now i think the answer is they thank you i'd like to make two points first claim nine as i noted it is held by the board to limit it to only sequencing the pre determined sequences themselves and i don't even think with whatever skepticism there is or anything else that anyone saying that under that law is teaching you only sequence the pre determined sequence their own expert as i pointed out in the paragraph the lied on the board says otherwise there this could be an error from the fact that the board said that none of the individual  argued separately so they didn't consider the claim nine separately but that was clearly preserve the j six thirteen the p tablet asked what you know you are doing anything separately and it's depending on how you do the construction if you control it the way  like then yes where a certain claim nine is now for the reason that i just described so that's one very straight forward path that i think requires that at minimum we manage but probably reversal second reason why i think  chromosome level that when you then sequence at the chromosome level that that's random sequencing that's what that paragraph says that is random sequence and so the plain being that what you look at seventy nine and they refer to as the random sequencing is then done or you look at the definition of random sequencing in or all of those things if you take your separate outs you have the entire chromosome which is what mr goodloe or correctly described then you have