we're now on to public to be heard miss is time for members of the public to speak to the select board on items that are not on tonight's agenda is there anyone here tonight wishing to speak here in public to be heard to our public hearing it which is item five so i will move to open the f one eight twenty twenty capital budget and five year plan this is a public hearing if there are we have a capital plan out there twenty twenty to twenty twenty four that we reviewed as a slug board and it's open to the public to comment on and is there anyone here tonight wishing to ask a question about the capital budget or comment on it i'm so i will move entertain a motion to close the public hearing thank you very to have a second so i can and any further discussion about closing the capital budget public hearing on all those in favor see if i was saying i posed a motion passes unanimously thank you all ok we're going to go on to our first business item and that's six a it's approval of the f y e twenty twenty capital budget and five year plan we had it the public hearing we've all had a chance to comment on it  remember rain events laughs no everything was melting so we didn't really put a good time to it but when we did notice a substantial amount of water we decided to throw some dye in the well found that there was a leak and proceeded with the protocol with notifying the state they make us notify within an hour and then again in twelve hours or so between that first notification of an hour the situation and us as we were bypassed pumping excavating trying to locate any leak we had a major tree right next to the pump station and it started giving us quite a bit of problems came very unsafe just to do the excavation sides were sloughing and water the leak happened to be right under the tree about six seven feet down so we terminated  the being eight o'clock at night we can see very well we have the lights on site but we just decided to call it off and bypass pump and regathered in the morning called indeed a tree service in the tree  going on the fix in the repair and it's about twelve fifteen hours later i had the repair complete and we had the station back up and running pretty near midnight on friday night so i wasn't doing that whether particularly or everything if something could go wrong it did if there was some obstacle to be thrown in front of us there was one thrown so the guys responded great stress was quite high but they pulled through the field to do a back on line for the people at home may not know what a force main is and how quick so everybody has a sort of connection to their home cravat he feeds out to the street to the gravity sewer system manholes and pipes underground  the village treatment plant is quite a distance from here out in the town center where this break happened to be a lot of that gravity is flow down to pumping stations that will pump the sewer into farther along in the distribution system and then eventually allow gravity feed to the treatment plant the portion of the pipe that was broken and i'm going to take something out of the dennis let's play picture this as your here pump station and this is the force plane coming out of the pump station what we found to be the problem was this was a ninety degree bend and every time the pump station kick done over the past thirty four years it was doing one of these things now this joint was a restrained joint a metal of joint but there was no other restraints either threading it back or rotting it back to securing it to the pump station itself or any thrust blocks in place so over time it allowed itself to work a leak in the gasket and then the leak started what we've what i found and dennis can definitely chime in here if you like over time introducing principles of standards get better we learn from our mistakes at this  we did receive one bill for the bypass pumping septic was there for the duration and that one came in at around thirteen thousand dollars we haven't received the contractors bill  our electrical contractors bill for anything further so these are about six or seven people on the ground who say yes some are deeper than the deepest one is closer to eight tall and try to inspect all the ones out in the field would be prohibitive i would imagine destructive methods yeah digging down insistent it's not feasible there are a lot of nondestructive methods that we could apply to this the water districts is implemented some wine inspections using a sonic ball that goes through the force man there are tethered options where you actually drag a probe that could measure wall thickness of the pipe as it goes through in camera the lines so there are options out there other than just dating to spec to see if everything's copasetic is it worth doing those do you think to see if there are any others like that or this doesn't happen very often it doesn't happen very often think of it we should definitely stay proactive and look at the possibilities and inspect a few of them out there to see if we see any deficiencies and we definitely don't want to be planning for this to happen again if we can catch something now with one of these nondestructive math nondestructive methods it's better to do it now and then another cold night in january to so you're working through that to see what options make sense that are c is set up to fund future replacements of lines rather sewer lines right that can be stretched a little bit in terms of you have to make other improvements that might benefit the system you probably could use that for that too so we have those those dollars that are available to do that this is a good look time we might tap into that account right to pay for this particular type of event sure that you know it was a little problem but there's also the environment was not now going to serve to make you know any easier it was a difficult job to start with so and i know the hours were awful so we have a great crew and they really they really showed their true colors and came came up  did what they're supposed to do took care of all the state is very strict on how you handle these things and oh yes you're right oh yes and the state was great working with us you know the guy the guy called me back that evening nine thirty said hey how's everything going so they were great to deal with frostbite or anything thank you for your are dealing with that and bringing us up to speed on what happened there ok if anything else ok thanks again so they were going to move on to biz item six c and that's an update and discussion on e t c next the town center planning project and we have our community element director so you give us enough to know this is been in the works for quite some time now do the community development department does two kinds of planning some of it is short term like development review day to day what's in your face and measuring and responding to the impacts proposed by individual development applications the second kind is long term planning and this is long term planning so it brings up big questions bigger than you would normally get in a planning project last time this was looked at was in ninety one ye s so it takes a long time for you know update some plants like this it takes a while for them to build out sometimes they don't build out the way that was in vision  plan itself is still and been draft form because we're now working on the regulatory phase and after we finished the regulations were to go back in and button up the plan for things that changed during the regulatory process so the plan still lives on it's a dynamic living document that we've been working on the regulations since recreation and now architecture form character or uses density all the good stuff is what we're working on now and that will take us through april and then we're going to start writing the regulations and then the planning commission this summer is going to be holding hearings on the regulations you know the standard thing required by the statue we will be doing this summer and with any luck the regulations will hit you guys in the early fall so it's all coming toward you and it's our job to prepare you and we will always be on hand  some didn't areas perceived as appropriate for dense residential growth never happened and that's good so what we've been working have matured to support a wide variety of land uses including residential retail civic commercial and recreational these neighborhoods are linked together into the broader region through an integrated multi million transportation network  pervasive way finding system and a common palette of streetscape and landscape elements while retaining an architectural expression that enforces their unique character so that's  we've coalesced around so far and that's driving this part of the project in what way finding system is yeah that's i go there for mad talk go there for the dentist appointment i mean for the dentist office in is that way it's just tells you where to go yeah but planners use fancy  words and also you know having a sense of identity when you arrive in the town center and having it be a place that people recognise when they're driving through and not just you know older some buildings off on the side of fifteen as i'm going marketplace you see them as you go through burlin ok so this is what we did to the one nine hundred ninety one master plan we have made it tighter and more compact just orient everybody kind of on that yeah and then down toward the circle is the town center and get that whole district is what we have today so it's just right along route fifteen old one had something like eleven zoning districts we got rid of a few which i think was going to make it easier  chopped off the top of what was called the golden triangle where it went to a point of near towers road yeah we just didn't think it was appropriate to develop up there anyway twenty five years later we learned of that so we took it off so now we see it a tighter town center with various districts  neighborhood commercial mixed use north mix to south residential and conservation recreation and we can go into those in some detail but for purpose you know for purposes of tonight i thought we might just move through but let you know that we we're working on per purpose statements right now for all of the districts and we're not that so where we are right now is in architectural design right now in fact we had a meeting couple weeks ago and we're going to have one in a couple weeks from now we're looking at four architectural facade treatments all right establishing building a rival points ar canes arcades in stoops maintaining architectural detailing on the street very very hard horizontal and vertical building planes in response to the pedestal and other kinds of design elements that we're working on the biggest thing that we've been working on is establishing more of a grid street network in the essex town and we've been able to do that remarkably by working with peter edelman so his his latest plan cut that through for us so it's going to look when it's built like a much more traditional new england village with defined sidewalks and points rather than this curvy kind of atmosphere previously we worked on site layout massing and scale building height orientation those are some of the images upward one isn't particularly helpful but you can see how the one below it gives you a nice feeling for this the sweep of the town center and move fifteen except or we are done with mass and scale that isn't proposed in the town center we haven't arrived at height proposed height for the buildings these are just for discussion points like what do we like about that kind of mass in that kind of scale what don't we like  generally people refer prefer not the big box feel but buildings that either you know are chopped up into smaller structures  appear to be you know which she has architectural devices to appear smaller than it really is and we've got a clear message on that ground the survey that we did which one hundred people responded to said they were pretty comfortable with retaining the vermont vernacular architecture in the town center  you know we can't promise that future buildings will look exactly like you know a front you know a little cottage on a weather front porch  because buildings are presented to us is pretty big these days because of the realities the economy is facing developers you know that's a whole different and interesting conversation been way in we've got a good feeling for what people want to see and we hope for a future build out to have a much better connectivity much better  bicycle bicycle friendly environment more appealing streetscapes just generally more attractive place to be in the future with little parks and stuff like that you know we're actually trying to do a fix of some aspects of the towns and we're trying to make what's in the air better in the destination tourism or people being drawn for a particular use or a cluster of uses like let's go out for dinner and then go bowling or let's get let's go to the and then have dinner and that's what i think is emerging is and some of the vision there haven't been a little bit more fun yeah so simple public spaces are really an important part of what we've been looking at studies have shown that people are willing to live in denser  denser atmosphere if they have access to open space and parks and so even though the essex town center is our growth area and we wanted to be dance and possibly hire we still need the parks in the green space otherwise people are going to want to live there so we've been very mindful of that ahead we're working on now is to develop design standards for the essex town center that create the kind of uses and and patterns of development that the community has told us they want to see that might be it's probably going to be a form base code hybrid form base code is very administrative and  that's not appropriate so we're looking at something that's a little bit in the street in a little bit planning commission and that's what we're going to be doing for the next several months and so we've got to adopt the plan and the regulations and we also have to consider supporting public in this such as water pressure sewer allocation so i walk past open spaces and parking and do that and i like to make dennis because he's going to help us talk about some of the public investments oh good yet you really can't develop if you don't have the infrastructure in place to make it happen so there's a couple things that were time we timely because we lucked out on at least one study that was with the champlain water district the timing and the second was that we had preplanned to look at the sewer system anyway because that needed an update to look at capacity allocation and all the stuff that goes with that aaron and i work together on this either one of us could probably stand up here and do it without it be good if we just kind of bounce off each other and maybe keep it a little bit interesting because for nine engineers i sampling water district einar presented of from south burlington to stamp and water district so it's kind of bizarre to have two members in the same office on the stamp and water district commission governing board but we are we learned early our water that comes into the town is pumped from the lake to essentially two tanks in the village one's near i b m what's up off globalfoundries if you will cross the street ones near athens drive that's kind of control of asian and then there's pumps that are down by the water tank next to globalfoundries that pump into the town there are no pumps over on the athens drive side so that water comes out of that pump station and goes kind of two directions one up sand hill road through pine wood manor in that area and the other one up through the village it's metered on both sides and then back into the town and then ends up on water from our two tanks they fill them at night and the during the daytime the normal demand draws them down they fill them again tonight that's the general procedure so with the gravity feed from those points and you can't pump really a higher capacity are you going to will basically blow it out of the tanks so the high point for the town is over by boat which corners relative to those tanks the two tanks are obviously higher but the highest point with regard to pressure no evasion the place we have the least pressure is over in the area of the lower scores of times in town center so when you when you're pumping to get normal pressures in the town you've got to overcome that elevation different difference so we'll have pressures of ninety two hundred pounds per square inch down along river road as they come out of the pumps so down there people have to put pressure  but you need that pressure to get it up to our tanks then when it flows over to butler's corners we're at a point where the pressure is marginal it's adequate for single family residential but it's marginal from a lot of perspective cases for some of the developments up there by asking them requiring them to put larger diameter pipes and so the new normal house feed would be larger because from the thirty p s i in the street you're going to lose their friction losses into the house the last thing you want to do almost guarantees that there's very little pressure loss between the street and the house so we near some ways to fix some of the inherent problems so everyone up there right now has adequate pressure it i good as it is at the lower end of town no but is it adequate the answer is yes so shallow water district want to look at they also have a problem when they fill their tanks because of the dynamics in the hydraulics between the two tanks the location and also with the village it's harder to keep those tanks balanced those tanks are controlled automatically through electronically of the plant through in remotely through skater systems and it's just really hard to get those tanks to equalize and so they wanted to do a study to look at what if they put a pump station over near athens drive and fed the town system from the other direction does that help on so that's where we that's a little we are that'll yeah and that's the that's the genesis of the study that's why they started out that ahmet to so happens that the the core of their study area  be in that's of concern and our low pressure area were able to piggyback on their study if you will to take a look at our distribution system and any alternatives that may be available to us  in the terms of upgrades to our our system to provide more flow into that area doesn't necessarily help pressure them right pressure we will have twenty three i on average twenty three to forty that is dictated as dennis was saying by the level of the tanks and i thought there was no plan i don't know if i would go for it for raising the level of these tanks or the height of these tanks to increase pressure there are a couple options out there that we did explore with regards to pressure one of them essentially creating a high pressure district within the town center and that could be done by a series of pressure reduction valves at various points within our distribution system in a booster pump station but by the the number of connections that would likely be connected to this high  oney into we found a second way of doing it and it's pretty much done everywhere and he urban area has been you see these skyscrapers hundred stories i'm sure this is somehow quest there definitely don't have the pressure at the street level to provide the pressure at the hands of floor sue they have a series of takes a booster pumps within the building itself to provide the adequate pressures that each floor would need above and beyond d on the order of fifteen percent increase in flows into the town center area just by building the pump station and connecting with a twelve inch force main into our distribution system  increased flows are important because they do relate a little bit to pressure as well if you think about that if you're drinking out of the cup their head before you're talking over golf you're talking about trying to suck water out of a fairly small container now think of this is the lake you know you could you could suck a lot of water out this you're never going to affect the flow in the lake you are going to affect it in the cup and so if you can provide more flow then what happens is as customer a over here turns on and starts to run his tap a customer b turns on theirs to run their tap with a more full with more flow in a larger volume there's less impact on the system so it does solve part of the pressure problem but it doesn't raise pressure and one of things you're in was talking about was we've done a good job in terms of planning for our water system up in that area we have lots of interconnects but the downside of that is if you're going to create a high pressure i'd zone every place you're going to interconnect back into the system you've got to take the pressure back down with a pressure reducing the vault and so you're talking about an a multiple numbers of these things at fairly high cost and you're in your and from cd seventies perspective you're over pressurizing a system which they don't need paying for more electricity paying for more for pumps to run that doesn't really meet their demand and so you you and you can't get insurance and you can't get to the high rise solution anyway even if you are out there and you decide to raise pressure to if you think you might get another i don't know five six seven eight making ten pounds of pressure out there but you're not going to get that second third fourth story that you need but the first floor should be adequate first floor second floor should be adequate and the other thing that's interesting too from a topography point of view route fifteen south of route fifteen south yes south the elevations drop off as those elevations drop off you go to higher stories because your elevation may be level back which would fifteen at the third floor if you're down a ways and we have existing system pressures in that southern part of reach fifteen which would be han aford or it when you get to another seventy two so when you get to the other side here it's when you get to the north side of route fifteen that you really start to experience  problem so if you're if part of the e t c plan is going to develop the north side that's we're going to run into problems with haven't really pressurised the system you may have to on the south side depending upon how you want to go so  part of c b d study we did kind of coordinates some of the design effort that the actual study effort with those folks and their consultant and we found  we could increase the flows along the northern part of the route fifteen court or in the town center by providing a couple pieces of infrastructure that we lack at this moment time  the maple fields and we would follow easterly on the north side of fifteen to the intersection of old stager road and interconnect with an existing eight inch mean there additionally stage currently dead ends about four five hundred feet east of the intersection that other project would be to replace that old line with a twelve inch from essex way and interconnect with old stage the slope in the system on that northern part that twelve inch diameter is going to give us the the additional flows needed in that area to kind of meet the the future needs on that side of the six inch there it's six inch now  down in an area over here this is a dense municipal water like all of this is top water line is tied in through the water system here going east so right now there is no there is a water line that comes from here up across the street and stops there is no water owing here is a short sections yours it's not there there's an old section of six inch right six inches it out here and so what we float we found was that by we asked them to look at a bunch of different options a model one of the options was what if you went back here and made this a twelve doesn't help a whole lot they came back sixty percent increase of what we have out there existing mine steinmetz those two sections lengths of pipe oh does have a big impact on fire protection i also read in insurance ratings all this kind of thing so things that can be done over there by three different parts if you will this one i'm going to get back we talk about funds that have been set aside this is a replacement of existing talent or whether  develops fully or not it will help the flow in that area that we have funds set aside to do this short section i hear there's nothing there but if we can are connected with this point this waterline interconnect back in this way so this whole system would then interconnect this piece would be missing and this peace we've got to put on the table that's a future developer responsibility spectacle properly go for a portion there of course or we could do it early and collect in fact fees after the fact if the town want to go ahead and build the whole thing today to be ready for the future and charge impact fees for the portion that isn't there today or collect are in fact fees and put it towards that morning isn't the best way to say because we're really collecting impact fees and we did have some discussion about having a surcharge district in that area for any future development that could possibly benefit from these increased line side of line size diameters and the increased flow provided by that construction there are different mechanisms out there i think that could be utilized to help realize this final design what we want here that interconnect that loop that northerly north side of route fifty traffic and it would be quite an ordeal right well what we would do in terms of just i'm just thought thing out loud in terms of that developer piece of this our impact fees right now for water sewer is about thirty two hundred dollars for civil family homes so yeah that's a one to you two hundred gallons a day that's a number to kind of thirty two hundred dollars so depending upon what you designate density for that area it's pretty easy to calculate well if you built out single family multi story what would the impact feet be under our current system which is going to cost to put that line in if they're equal if they're if it's adequate you may not need a surcharge is not adequate you need a surcharge laid the groundwork at the end of the memo here a kind of like the next steps if you will go forward want to proceed or where we should proceed study wise when it comes to the water in that area  first we have champlain water district what are their plans i believe this is we have a line item held a placeholder within the capital budget but no funding for it today i would expect and i don't believe we have board approval for the project that's forthcoming and i don't see any hurdle there it's needed i would proceed as projects being constructed two thousand and twenty one two thousand and twenty two to three years out the second would be the two water wind projects where the single loop up there on the north part of the to come back with some cost estimates to kind of give us a number to play with here that said some discussion would need to ensue at the select board level in the planning commission level over this work as part of the e t c plan itself and as dennis was discussing earlier here some determination on funding is of all going to be through capital or is it a series of  partially capital partially impact fees is there another mechanism out there that we flow to see if if that works a surcharge and then finally  basically at our level at the engineering office we need to be a little more mindful we're going to probably make the requirements a little stricter on reviewing future development in our low pressure area up there  we definitely need to be mindful about elevations of buildings very important but again that's at our level and we would definitely be requiring people to provide some sort of analysis on flows potential flaws required for those for fire domestic likely be using our model that we have currently to input and there's really any questions you guys really to give in this study given the studies that we've done we've really got two to water projects that are so important to the town one is the one to working on now to try to get to construction the summer if we can and that's the buy there's of waterline over forty thousand alan which to talk about a number of times a connection to the wilson road that will improve the potential for growth in commercial growth an area and also help both flow and pressure and that side that's already underway this one at this point we've completed enough work for us to say this is a worthwhile improvement but we can't move on this or won't move on unless the board says either now or a later date i'm not expecting any answer tonight but that this is a project we can come back with more specifics on because if this is the route we want to go both for e t c and for the future of the town itself we can come back with the design costs that structural costs we do have already i checked with sarah we've got about a million over a million dollars in impact fees in the waters were fun and about three million dollars total including for the replacement fund we talked about so there are funds that we could step off and build us sufficient  you're not you're close to the right of way they're good people to work with but they're very tight in terms of controls one hundred fifteen i'd rather come back with a good estimate but it's the kind of project that history of as dead as retired they also look at what the needs are on their horizon to basically strengthen the water system for all the communities and so they try to do a balance rate structure that keeps rates low but builds what they need so as debt comes off they will look at projects and they've got a whole list in the capital plan like we do and then pick off those projects that are most important to them this ones on the i would call it a candidate list it's just there's been no decision yet by the board as to whether we're going to fund this or not that's all maybe two questions currently today if you're along the ro fifteen corridor or somewhere near maple fields between there and essex way if you wanted to build a loaf one or two story building we would have the right pressure for you to get water to the without right so beyond that it's somebody needing a pressure pump to take something off pire which would limit density above the first floor in some parcels and some put some parcels yeah just did that's the general gist of it is there's water there it's the pressure to get it up above the first floor adequately and depending upon use right a typical apartment or whatever you have versus say a business that uses lots of water ok like to be on the ground floor versus  and it's you know it's it's a proven science it works it's done all over the big cities many of in many places where you have five six stories or above which we're not recommending here you have to pump it up to some type of holding up on the rove and then have it come down and that provides the pressure to bathrooms in almost some motels that are above that you have to pump it up to a reservoir tank and then let it filter back down again back in e t c you're not even talking that type of height for the most part you're talking a couple stories and that's up for discussion yeah ok does not that expensive and you know it the interesting thing is a few years ago we did a historic tour in new york city and one of the things architecture architect pointed out was these old wooden talers and if you go up some of the buildings that are five six seven stories high just kind of like a wooden collar that's up there simple that's their specs their water stores are pumping it from the ground floor there and they're still beat by gravity down to the people in need and when the level drops the pump kicks on fills it up and you do it all over again so i mean that's that's turn of the century technology so this is nothing no prior century prior century that gravity worked for you that's i was going to ask questions based on that so are you not is it not cost prohibitive for a developer to build along the route fifteen corridor in spite of the fact that there are pressure issues there is that with is it keeping development from happening by the fact that there's less pressure in that area don't think so i think the issue may be one of the e t c plan is going to occur density it's expensive i mean if we're talking about just doing our segment of waterline a half a million dollars you're not going to find a developer go out there and spend millions of dollars and put up single family houses on a three acre lot i mean a camp against it anyway but they just can't afford to do that it's going to have to be substantial enough to make the investment in the infrastructure and that's going to be a cost they're go have to absorb as the extra cost of pumping first and so would you say that because of this that there should be a cap on building heights too because of the limitations or is if it is a developer decides to put in a pumping system within their building then there's no ness in the society for a cap on building heights just because of pressure i don't think water can be used as a reason to kept building height i mean not when you're talking about like you say downtown boston with thirty stories or nature to me it is a it isn't the appropriate cap for the a cat maybe one of hysterics it may be of fire protection and maybe a whole bunch of other things but i don't think you could hang your hat and say knowing we know more about that system is going to be a look at plans to ask the question his eyes are incisive piping right what's what is the pressure going to be if you do go up three stories do you have the proper design in place to make it happen make it work the other thing we look at is fire suppression so if you are going to go there and have to put out a fire you need fire flow you need flow of the water due to pressure and so the higher you go up the the more the ability we need to be able to get the water up to three storeys and so it's kind of a mix and then you take that plus the ability to get our quitman close enough yet not in it to to be able to to do a need to do so it's kind of a a delicate balance of where you get the water from how the flow what the pressure is and how do you regulate that pressure because pressure can be good pressure can be bad and so anybody who's built a water tower lately i think well of about one hundred fifty foot towers well over two million dollars nowadays  and then you have to have the customers from which to charge two million dollars plus the maiden aunts and all the electrical things so it just doesn't it's not a cost effective way to do it so someone who wanted to build a building get water above the second floor is going to do a pomp they're going to do a cost analysis and probably come back to you and say i need a couple more units to be able to do the cost analysis so that for the water piece that you get to talk about the sewer or ok to going to go faster not eight that take up a lot of time but we'll try to issues into the sewer i'll deal with the first one mostly on an errand can deal with the second one the first one of sewer allocation and that's my past history work for him when engineering is he as an engineer i designed a sewer system i also was responsible for setting up the allocation policy because we were required to do that by the state as a condition of getting the money we were one of the last communities in vermont to get money for  sewer systems and then the funds dried up and actually went to court to get the money because the town of sherborne and the town of essex were in competition for the same funds and we won for whatever it's worth  but we were required to look at the controlling growth in the community and keeping it so that we did not have and this is one thousand nine hundred four this is well before we got into growth centers and all the other stuff they had a plan to state who thought that this was an important issue and we agreed with it and so we designed a system to basically take our capacity and limit our capacity to the area that we wanted growth  and the area that was chosen was based on zoning and i am going to go back to this because it goes many times i have to the sewer corps follows the zoning to sort or doesn't define the zoning zoning decisions drive what's in the sewer core and if you go to this the the sewer ordinance and the zoning they're consistent there's no ability to connect to sewer so these boundaries were written around the town plan in effect in one thousand nine hundred four and then we figured out was who needs to connect who's got systems that are straight piping which failed systems and over time the areas in blue are those that have actually connected to the sewer partway through the process we went from a million gallons a day of capacity to one point one million gallons a day a capacity purchased that back in the nineteen late one nine hundred ninety s really two thousand wilson had an upgrade we decided to go in with them upgraded the plant we got a little more capacity we thought honestly i thought in one thousand nine hundred four and we built this that we had this all built up like two thousand and four it's now thirty five years later we're about fifty five percent of usage yet at about we're about fifty but also we have allocated capacity so he yes so we've allocated some capacity we had some people that have gotten approval purchased capacity are in the process of building but their waste water has been going into the plant so we've looked at we looked at this historically in terms of do we have capacity the important thing and if i don't like you can point on the see if i can do with this  it was not two thousand one thousand conditions have changed so this area was where there was a lot of capacity put and there's a gravity sewer the comes down here that comes to a pump station that pumps up into the village this gravity sewer is fed by a series of gravity sewers up in this part of town but the town center area over here is fed by a pump it feeds into a pump station that we call the farm pump station the one where we have the force main problem about there so all the sewage that comes in from the town center gets pumped into that pump station as well as some of the residential development down here comes into that pump station then it gets pumped up to a pump station up here called here just states that it gets pumped from here to just states to a pump station over here called alder lane then it gets pumped up from alder lane down sand hill road gravity flow into this pump station and then from this pump station into the village so we're taking everything this way but the size of pipes and capacity were set by this being the growth area this was never thought of in so there's a capacity that's assigned in this in this study fair amount of capacity for industrial commercial development could be just not going to take place so the question is there's capacity in various parts of the system that can be freed up and there isn't some numbers to look at that it's easy to free and so they're not so we had him we had him look at this because they've got the computer model they inherited after i left that continue to use it we've asked them to update it so this doesn't involve just a e t c plan involves the whole town as well looking at our infrastructure looking at another twenty years where are we and then we got all done with that and we had that kind of an answer we then went back and said ok now we've got the e t c plan what if you superimpose on the changes that we've talked about more growth out here how does that affect our capacity issues and there's a couple different ways and this gets really confusing but there's a couple different ways to look at it one way is to look at it from a theoretical point of view that says every one of these we use two hundred gallons per day for equivalent user and we've tried to make the map we have made the math equal when you add up all these parcels and all the numbers maps the equal one point one million gallons per day so the number of each use on this map equals one point one million gallons per day our capacity so from a planning third medical give all capacity you want to keep that relationship so that you are not over committing on paper what you have as a as a finite resource and we're probably not going to get a whole lot more of it when we skew river in the future so our capacity is what it is so we've got we've got those numbers available to be able to be used against a system but one way to do it is based on e u and theoretical the other way is to look at what we've actually experienced on flow and we found as people come online more you recently than in the past both all fixtures smaller families  actually have some inherent built in safety factors in our capacity numbers which is actually a good thing because i know some of you've been on the board long and others but we've come repeatedly to to on a parcel under the ordinance to say i've only got to either use or four hundred gallons per day but i want to put up three apartments and i need six hundred gallons per day or can you give us that additional capacity and the answer is yes because we have so there's always a safety factor i think built in that the select board wants to reserve in their back pocket for those kind of things that safety factors fairly significant so if you look at it if you look at the at the system you look at the pumps you look at the pipes and you take it out for the next twenty years you can apply two numbers the theoretical large number or maybe the actual low number and the truth of the matter is the real number of somewhere in between the two and so on the low end if you use the real numbers our system isn't really pretty good shape there's not a whole lot of improvement have to be made to it and if you keep out the e t c changes it'll do what it was supposed to do ok if you go to the theoretical number the were larger pipes is now going up year so we took a look at that and said well what do you do and there's a couple things that you can do with that one is the theoretical number on how many that appear provide the capacity where you want and there's a few other parcels derren and dinner were helpful looked at some of the parcel we looked at and dare look deeply into some them one is what one's there's other configurations where there's a certain number of  generality they're never going to go to build out because the land isn't allow them to build it so you can very easily transfer some now it doesn't get us all but it gets a lot of it that was the first iteration we've since got back in the second iteration and there's probably with a little bit of tweaking we may have to go back to some of the users that have been designated capacity and let's say been designated a large number maybe you've got to cut that by five percent that doesn't mean th don't have capacity it just means when they when they need if they need to go to that level they're going to have to come into the select board to go into that reserve capacity so it doesn't prohibit them from do what they want to do all it does this is you've got to take another step important in terms of how the select board it's your planning document terms of how you want to control future growth so it's really important to do that so we could go on all night about this but i'm not going to but i think that the the point is that there are ways to switch that allocation for where it is today or where it was in the in the last time this was an updated with the early one nine hundred ninety s i think and bring it into this area if the boar wants to designate that this is going to be a higher growth area than it is today now there are some options one of the one of the options that i mentioned in there that's true is this could be kind of a negotiation to hold its own between the planning could come back and say well we've got almost all of it that maybe we don't have quite the quite enough to fill this zone to make the map work well maybe what you have to do than say we're going to change over some of proposed densities out here in terms of the planning process to drop them slightly a slight change might give you another twenty or thirty eight use that you could have that you could then use to make the numbers come out correctly so it's an interest process it could be done all by switching some that are logical taking some away that are logical or could come about by saying well maybe in some of these areas we don't want as high a density as what's in the e t c plan that's not the engineers decision to make that's planning commission that's select board in terms of how you want to handle that from an engineering perspective either doing it that way or modifying this we can get the capacity into that zone but it does have some specific tired of talking to the one of things we looked at is the lang farm pump station is no matter what we do is add or near capacity so we're going to have to do something in the next if you go to the reports somewhere in the next five years we've got to do something that pump station probably sooner than later it's almost there now and it's whether you want to realize the capacity at the calculated values is that instead or the actual values like you said it's somewhere standardize on hopefully they never go out of business but we standardize them so that we would make sure that as every developer came in we were stocking different per parts and different manufacturers and you know blown in their quality companies so we've development was going to occur there when part of the count planned so now we have a pump station nearing capacity at this location so there's a there's a couple things you could do you could replace this pump station with a larger one this takes in the sewage from this whole area would take it in from across the street owners from sold off property get it across the street because it already comes across from yours right here comes across your body gravity line feeds down any future growth in here would feed into this location this pump station also gets sewage from a good portion of the woodlands part of the woodlands at the very bottom goes into the village by gravity but this portion up here  comes down comes in to here from here that sewage is pumped in a force main up here underneath this or underneath the surface out the other end and then to another pump station so you could make this bigger to make it bigger you've probably got to take out the whole can and do the whole thing all over again meanwhile while that's going on you still have sewage coming down here and coming down here and it's a nightmare could be done you have to probably acquire more land because we only own enough land that the pump stations located on so there's a whole host so that's one option just for operational maintenance my viewpoint i don't have that force m underneath the surface french ally way that was one of the issues we had a concern about here is that when this thing went dead on us you need to blow up blow the air out and because this thing goes up and down and up and down you need to get the air out of that won't pop and we had an air movies here anyway if you do if you increase this pump station one the other things is ok now this foursome is fine but now you're you've got to increase the next pump station the next one down cats and it's all the way down  one of the options would be that we looked at it was on paper quickly is and i thought of another one but you could leave this here make this a bigger pump station and then come out here break this line and take it all down here and take it by gravity into the village if the village lines will handle it ok so you can have one pump station taking everything down taking all that flow out of our pump station they're good forever really or put another pump station appear break this line put a force main here to connect into the existing force me take this it would fall and take it down this way so everything that's coming in from the lying farm now comes in here anything that ever gets developed in the course golf course will come into this one and come out down by gravity so there are some options out here that we could look at part of which involves what happens if you put that additional sewage into the village that's something that we'd like to ask can one talk to voters because hamlin's the village engineer to see if they're ok with doing a study to see what is the impact if we eight inch pipe which slope what's the capacity how many people are connected in next place you're in the same model that they've done for us but you do it on that own line down through their center believe it is gravity all the way through the village to the trees so next stage once you get it out of here you don't have if there are memorable one things including the study would be what would be the cost of doing a couple of these options meaning either new pump station force mean new force mean here for a larger pump station two for month some cost estimates force to see what it's going to be like again from an allocation point of view we can handle it we can build the infrastructure to handle the additional flow but there's probably a smart way and a dumb way to go about how you get that sewage into the village and now's the time to look at it before again and this gets really complicated but it's financially these are existing users have already paid their impacts they shouldn't be charged if we had to put another pump station here they've already paid their dues right but we have their collected impact fees in the account so but if this gets developed and they haven't paid their impact trees that should go into the cost of that house offset it if we save electrical cautioned some of this be borne by our replacement system cost we have to look at that and those are things that i think from a global perspective we need to look at as you're looking at the e t c and to get some direction from the board on how you want to proceed we have a plan but we don't step off and spend money without the the board's not in the head and saying yeah go go look at this and come back to us with some answers that yeah and we did come up and find some rough estimates for costs for those upgrades that we just discussed on there and you have to realize that as as dennis was saying we're also impacting downstream from stations as well and controls impeller upgrades you're talking twenty five to fifty thousand each station downstream on top of upgrading or installing a new station at the lang say or a combination thereof that scenario right there in the den actually installing another small pumps are a smaller pump station to town center area sort of stuff to be less of a cost and actually upgrading the existing station use the a c of the structure and then upgrading all downstream stations million to give or take sunk in the in factories and there's two point three point four million in the other and we're putting aside a significant amount each year into that account now again we're not advocating spend all that stuff down to zero that that's not the right thing to do because there's other needs in the future we're going to have but there are funds available there to do at least pieces of this process and maybe the whole process without hundred thousand are those all separate projects from what you're discussing here and no the yes or no the waterline project we put that isn't a placeholder because when we started the process on the capital plan belt four months ago we were still working on the studies and part of the study was what if she'd have you deep put in we paid c v t to put not just to connect her in that they want to connect into the lang farm but really redid the whole thing so we took their cost a reported one point nine million and put that in as a placeholder because we didn't know what was going on the city project will be built that project will be built without any funds that we have to put into that and so it's still identified as a project but it's a different project at a different cost and that's why it wasn't funded because i mean it was indicated as a future project but it wasn't funded at all because we didn't know where we're going with some of the other alternatives that we discussed at c t v had alternate routes were and would have been a cost sharing between the town and city of egypt and then the other one we've been we've had an ongoing project to take two things up greater skater the other piece of it is a lot of our controls when we built our stations are downstairs power comes in upstairs controls or downstairs that means when you go down the pumps asia check the pump station you always need two people one person  top one person down below in case there's a problem to confined space think it's a complex place right for potential for engulf yes so if the controls are brought up and you're checking contributor to check controls you don't necessary have to go down and the controls are in a better environment up top than they are sitting twenty feet down in a wet so my weight environment so we're trying to it take each pump station and gradually move and that's that other project is to move those controls up top over time that's for the stations that are only the dry well that well types we've got a few of them that have to pump a little bit differently but i guess what i would really like to see some more details on the funding that we currently have set aside where it's coming from what it is this is a newbie question for me the impact fees i just would like to see the dollar amounts we have how long it took for them to build up and what if anything else is projected to be used to spend not to use those funds to spend on so i guess i would like a little more detail grow in a compact settlement form surrounded by open productive countryside is our idea so we're trying to stay and in a compact form and in some cases that may get closer and denser and in some cases in may evolve going up and to do some of those things we need to send it off and there is one thing i do want to mention max just that's important because the pump station for example telling farm pump station yes we need to think about making decisions within the next six months to a year what we don't want to do is replace pumps out there that may be a cost of twenty five or thirty thousand dollars a pop so now we've got sixty thousand dollars invested and then a decision is made we are going to go ahead with e t c and that's the tough part is that we don't want to make an incorrect decision the cost the town money long term we're wasting money by all have to be just more decision i guess we just wasted sixty seven thousand six or seven thousand dollars or you know so i think the board all agree that economic development is a vital piece of what's needed here in the e t c is addressing that a portion of that and in order to support that economic  development investment in infrastructure is in is inevitable i think right near looking to just see if we're all agreeing that economic development is important in supporting the growth and in the town center so anybody have want a greater diversified tax base you need to grow the grandmaster bring in businesses in it to improve the infrastructure to a point where you can improve the diversity of both businesses and residences and you have to also provide evidence to potential developers that the town his investing self in itself in order to encourage them to also invest in other comments on this ok but i read and thinking about some new billings for pearl street's some of the we know ski development where they have this thing we've been talking about now for maybe twenty years where you have the business downstairs and  residential upstairs what's the ratio that's a correct i just see so many empty storefronts international buildings but also in these newer buildings and i wonder if we have the critical mass of population to populate oh and just building what three star friends now in front of all his scripts and laying development how do we prevent this reference from a remaining empty for a really long time is there a way to make sure that we're not over building the storefronts when we build residential on and that just simply didn't work there was enough demand for commercial and residential up top that's been changing in the intervening years but as far as how can we make sure that the these storefronts you know don't say you know are empty you know some of these are decisions in the market decisions that the that developers are going to have to on i think about these quirky new england towns and you got an old book store in an older house and you've got a consignment clothing store in another older building and and there are a lot of vendors  can imagine you know new england environment they can afford to be an energy efficient high tech very cool looking downstairs of new residential development they need to be to make their wanted to i guess ask for clarification it seems to me that both the water and the sewer thing you said there were things that you wanted to do inspire him whether e t c happened or not i just want to make sure that we're not not that we are hearing what you're asking for because i think you asked us to do things in the near term in spite of whatever happens with with the d c am i wrong or tonight you know i think you're right i'm i look at the towns if a structure and i think that what we've now identified is that there is some benefit to existing users and customers affect the water to take out that old six inch and put a twelve inch and connect those two points together and that whether you go obviously through a process for them to get approvals for each one of those steps but i think that's that's needed i think we need to look at that particular pump station and decide is a better way to take the sewage number one that's irrespective of c that's a that's a study with the village to see what what if we can make it work the other direction some early scoffed estimates as to what would it take to do that and maybe some soil borings and i've even thought  but yes do i think we need to approach that and say what makes the most sense for the future for that pump station and we should be doing that now getting some studies out and kind of a follow pull done we've learned some things so let's take what we've learned and take it to another step and before we reach a point we come back and say fundis project we need answers for and what we need to get more detail to get those answers but yes then the other questions maybe would come about us as a second piece to that that do involve e t c what happens other sections of water going to go farther with that that's kind of an e t c thing do we really start to build one of these pump it right i think any saying that there's something that needs to be done regardless it ought to be done as long as if the impact of having e t c happened what impact that piece then you know we want to make sure there's at least we do a just have an open discussion and then a follow up as to how you want to proceed maybe at a later time but you know we can we can go back and say with the proposals that here's what we'd like to do and it's one of these things in more detail like that we'd like to see that it i other question that i just wanted to get back to what irene was talking about i could not agree with you more about the concerns about affordability of retail space and i think that it's not necessarily in the planning commission's hands or the planning departments hands because the developers have to balance their costs with you know what they perceive as to be the right market mix but on the other hand the one way we could conceivably work on keeping those costs down for the developers to make sure we're not imposing too many design standards or imposing too many requirements and on the code side but also that saying you know there are vacancies especially in downtown  different you know they've got the four storeys with the breach on the bottom maybe that's going to a little different out in the town i think we're a little retail heavy right now what we need is a housing and there's a lot of retail space that isn't being filled because like you said this mom and pop businesses cannot afford to move into new spaces and landlords are looking for the right mix of the kind of tenant who can afford to pay the rents that they have to charge to make up the cost of their building new development will actually go over a lot of those easements we need to the developer needed to move them around so that we can actually accommodate it so to give you a quick overview this this is freeman was road this is an extension that well has been built and will be eventually transferred to the town to accommodate to serve the memory care facility in the assisted living facility in the condos that are here  this square in the middle was part of the five freeman woods property its entire development is now being transferred to the end of assets in order to allow them to do a twenty seven unit apartment building here that's market rate units and been anybody but geared towards the slightly older demographic to sort of fit into this area because they are actually building whole network of pipes that sort of serve that those are being relocated there is also a sewer main the runs through here it's thirty feet on the end  essex parcel it was twenty feet on the black rock side that's staying in place not changing at all but it overlaps with two other easements it is a seventy foot wide pedestrian and parking easement that was put in when the town choir did this parcel on the south east known as freeman woods and a lot of people to actually park and go walk in that public  parcel because the new parking lot will be built roughly in this area and the building will be right here obviously we can't let people park there the same way they used to so instead the developers have relocated the trail easements ago from the coal sack of freeman woods down around the top of stormwater pond and into the public parcel from the woods and they're also offering  that's the gist of what we're putting before you the reason it needs to come to the select board is that these are humans that are held by the town so it's technically a conveyance of real estate in the town attorney advise us to get your approval and also  approve the exchange in the relocation of easements as described including the relocation agreement which you have a copy of in your packets and authorize the town manager to execute parking we might be losing its light lease you have some area of parking overall but the benefit is that we don't have to maintain a gravel lot anymore it's going to be maintained by the developer is going to be paved and it will be much easier to see there also putting in signage saying here's how to get to the freeman what's parcel there actually building a gravel trail here so they're not just giving us these and they're actually building a house on the infrastructure to access that safely so i would say overall this is again even if there is maybe a slight loss of space and control of the town we're also gaming apartment building and twenty seven new housing units so depending on how you look at that that's a plus or minus but w mid to high year end market location do you feel appropriate to try to go after affordable housing density or anything like that we're doing other stuff in essex that will involve that but not specifically you guys  so no it wasn't really considered the other challenge with that is the economic viability it's sort of one of those things where twenty seven you know part of building the size and scope with some under building parking the cost models and this is where i can speak to a little better the cost models don't work out great press revenue stream so it's sort of you're looking for them don't do it or don't do affordable and bring something to the community it does  create it is an apartment building but it is targeted towards seniors active seniors but it does sort of fill out the entire campus over there of the full spectrum which is what we've been looking at a c c r see if you can continue in care get older so if you stay in the same location as you unfortunate progress through those levels get a much better quality of life so that's really what we've been looking at is the individuals who are likely to occupy this sort of like open up some lower end rental units elsewhere so it all fits into the bigger picture it's just not necessarily guaranteeing that right here right now where and how i can look forward to seeing about your next affordable housing project because they are few and far between and right so the town center project will hopefully give us the density and the control over how development is done to maybe do a little more affordable housing we're batching some of the regulatory changes that we've learned about from affordable housing hot it that the regional planning commission did with p t c regulations the new ones that will be doing so some of the commonsense things like looking at the density bonuses to make sure that they're actually a viable for a developer they would actually want to use and making sure that the densities are high enough to make the projects feasible from  affordability perspective we may look at some level of inclusionary zoning or some other requirements or at least you know strong incentives for informal housing it may not happen with the town center regulations right away but it's going to be coming soon after that and we're also starting to think about so we're working on a housing needs assessment to say ok how many housing units do we need to provide in order to really fit our needs and town and where is that going to happen so there may be other strategies that's not just saying we want doesn't need affordable units in the spot it might be let's partner with shafran housing trust buy up existing units that  we can keep out and affordable rate instead of creating new ones tell me where i can see it from here s smile let it catch up with us so this is the building that's going to be built this is the parking area where the town will be entitled six spaces the stormwater pond is  here a lot of the easements and the drainage pipes that are moving will come out from this direction and through here there's one that goes badly this way and feeds out to the rest of the system zoom in real quick is going to be alongside the driveway the entrance to the underground parking here so this is the fifteen foot wide easement the path will actually be narrower than that but it will run along the top of the stormwater pond a lot of side of the building and then down into the towns parcel the conservation trails committee and staff yellow area here is going from black rock to the end i six because black rock has used up more of its density than it could viably utilizes here who is building the building block is building the building on the  six land using the density because they're only commercial and they don't have any residential area overall the density is kind of the same no matter how you cut it it's just legally what they could do according to the zoning regulations and it will also be on a footprint a lot so but i don't know how you're running the building going to the future but i understand it will be sort of separate from either blackrock or  parents are the pension generation i'm the pepsi generation at some point we're going to run out of people the kind of for high end housing so i can't stress enough we've got to be looking at the supply house for the rest of us thank you well there's a housing study encourage affordable rental housing if we do inclusionary zoning it's going to challenge to get to them the better thing the that we can't we don't have control over is to increase incomes and make them more in line with what the housing costs are around here i posed a motion passes unanimously thank you good luck when will that the housing study be done it's on the back burner and now because we're working on the town center regulations but it's the next thing on the list  trying to sort of move it along in the background as i have spare time but we will certainly be working on it in earnest within the next year as he sees wrapping up i think we'd all love to see see that ok thank you that's more than several so maybe multiple recommendations things that you know it's unfair and it just just a question of whether there's any way to get on one page so doesn't just have a quarter  suggest at the end of the number three which is at the top of page two you mentioned the community justice center and the community outreach program but i just wondered if you wanted to put in prezzies what those things are for the average person who might not have encountered them along the way especially that our reach program which is brand new howard center to me says burlington so if we could say something few words about this is a tell people what it is it's a local on the streets whatever community just utterly restored old which seems to be our new golden stander if we could have additional sentence talking about how that insurers or that aims to ensure that people matter where they live are paying as equal  toward consolidating them to do something now i have concerns of that is the only way to make everybody pay the same is to make it a hundred percent a town funded because the matter there is no percentage that makes it mike you have probably that you want something different sure what's wrong with eight weeks well it's true it's a weeks but if it's really if something were to happen and we our funds are all cut off we could only operate for general accounting practice target would that be a better way to say as per you know gap or general accounting practice because that's what defined these numbers you know right there's a standard he have to make sure that it actually is a recommendation by some body like that i don't have that here they recommend this they recommend having a surplus so they actually recommend this year so it is a recompete is  so in terms of having to go in depth of every reason why you have a reserve ok else on the budget one looks good thank you for for getting those together could in the dinner's all say even though the high school has vacation right but they're always ready to take care of it on that monday for so that's good start time is the same as always as per charter ok and for the last three years we've handed out a little questionnaire the first year we did it we got thirty six response s the second year we did it we forgot to sign somebody responsibility to collect them afterwards so we got zero last year we got one response so all i'm wondering and i mean i just bring it right do we want to do it again or do you want to abandon that for now i don't know we had it was a pretty simple questionnaire of you know what did you like about town meeting you know when we do what we do clearly i would don't think we actually said out loud during the meeting that there's a questionnaire and we'd appreciate your your feedback and there's a box in the back to collect them or something like that so that because if we didn't ask  guess that people would prefer to take him home and fill them in and then send them rather than doing it right there on the spot so if you're looking to get people to do it right there on the spot keep it short the response we'd like to see i complete the page a little bit you see it usually came in the same pages will info about robert's rules of order as i can put try to put something up top or no down there please pay attention to that please note the survey and distribute at the end we i'm sorry i'm stuck on the because one both boards agreed to pursue that at a at a given time that was best for staff capacity so i don't think we committed to i think we were interested in learning about what that would be and we were waiting for the feedback from c c r piece and then that's why we call it here i would request of staff could track down exactly what both boards decided on that positive the trustees agreed to stop form a committee and i thought the select board had agreed as well but if we could just and identify where that stands that would be useful information anyway  not said here that we do not yet plans emblematic of me but i'm free to encourage us to appoint one but my question is are you asserting that i said that because i'm afraid i don't recall it was in early january and i'm assuming you and then online seventy seven at the bottom it would now say ms run i wondered if this could be an opportunity to purchase equipment together noting the percentage owned by each municipality in the same way personnel have been when they were shared between department mean so yeah any comments and thank you for the letter of support for the stuff governance pilot proposal it's basically think i'm very timely to really it's good ok i mean really happy issues then that's a good good when i see it but since we say that we take it seriously i think even if there's one incident that gets reported i think they ought to be coming in is that the  i would like to make a comment about eight c and that's the winner operations update and december and january have been very challenging for our public works crews and they're out there doing a bang up job in their lives east of weather keeping our streets and sidewalks as safe as they can so i want to give a shout out to them for the hard work that they do in those very challenging sure share with the board the first is that channel seventeen along with the other public access stations in the state under the vermont action network are happy to hear that the public service department has requested a hearing and a workshop on additional or alternate revenue streams for public access television so that's an ongoing conversation because revenue streams are changing significantly and lawsuits are going all over the place and so we did start talking about new ways to fund so i'll keep you posted as that occurs and the other thing i wanted to bring up relates to irene's comments earlier about  affordable housing and deron have replied that some of the the solutions that are offered are to work with champlain housing trust to rehabilitate existing units so currently there is a proposal from the governor to create a program called the vermont home improvement program i believe that's what it is home investment program and it's a million dollar proposal to provide grants to private landlords to improve their units for public use and the purpose is to take properties that are offline right now that are just not in good shape that are not being rented improve them and bring them on as housing stock in an affordable way and so if anyone is interested in seeing that proposal succeed i suggest that they contact their local legislators to encourage them to vote yes when that bill comes forward it does not have a bill for a number yet but eighty seven percent of code violations in vermont happen in privately owned apartments in the state and there's lots of funding going to publicly owned stuff but the overwhelming majority of shop very close by and we have about a week to get commons and if we'd like to say anything to them the threat to essex rescue i'm told is that they're volunteers may be pulled away to work for a business like this and it's a tough issue because we always want new businesses to come here but also  course of need so that they are advertising for each mts but really it's like a senior bus that's in terms of service that's what's so interesting to me so i'm not so sure that we're getting a whole series about oh here if anybody could get my information from facility in trial facility transport so if you are going from a hospital to there be place they transport you and they charge a fee to do this originally they're also looking to do nine one one transport they do see it as a concern to them but they're also a for profit model as well there we are one of their largest clients and so yes they are concerned and they have to keep their eye on it but his main concern is the marketplace not being large  one of them everybody else is volunteers and essex rescue and so he wants to keep his eye on it he wants to be supportive of they don't do those types of transports so  right now if that's what they're doing that's interesting and good but as they move into name one you know we have a volunteer model with our fire  departments he keeps the costs low by doing that and then most of what happens with some of his people is eventually they get certifications and they look to get on as full time in mts or paramedics whether that be at south burlington or another department so i said we were happy client and so we'd like to continue that relationship as it benefits both our community and his organisation i think we want to make sure that there are enough medical services to go around hinton kind of but that we are not unwittingly starting a system where we're going to start doing full time e m t and paramedics at a quite a substantial cost right now i believe we pay a six rescue up about seventy thousand dollars from town tax funds and then they have a model where they also have as a subscription service we were just talking today an ambulance just the ambulance not what's in the ambulance is two hundred fifty thousand dollars so they provide quite a service and their service teria sarah tory is well over one hundred square miles the town itself is only thirty six so they they operate in a much larger area and so those are the types of things we want to make sure that we are not unwittingly working against our interests to then have full time paramedics which will make the cost be exponential from there the service