hearing of the house judiciary taskforce on judicial impeachment will now come to order without objection the chair be authorized to declare a recess of the hearing will now recognize myself for an opening statement today the task force will continue its inquiry into whether united states louisiana in exchange for access and assistance in his official capacity as a judge including setting aside of a conviction of a market employee task force counsel allan barron will again brief us to provide a general overview of the matter under consideration today after his presentation task force counsel will question the witnesses for initial period followed by member questioning judge for to counsel was again afforded the opportunity to question the witnesses but has opted not to  question the witnesses today porteous is present with us this morning and i will now recognize my colleague mr goodlatte the distinguished ranking member of the task force for his opening remarks thank  this is the third in the series of hearings that the task force on judicial impeachment has held to examine the alleged misconduct of federal district judge thomas porteous during this hearing we will explore the nature of the relationship between judge porteous and lewis and laurie mark in connection with their bail bond business the task force has been working with law enforcement judicial officials has conducted numerous interviews taken depositions from key witnesses and gathered evidence and transcripts from previous investigations these efforts have uncovered a large amount of information including new evidence that was not uncovered in previous investigations is allege that judge porteous received extravagant lunches and chips from the markets as well as consistent repair and maintenance work on his vehicles and other things of value it is also alleged that judge porteous gave preferential treatment to the markets by setting bonds at levels that financially benefited the markets by splitting bonds in a way that financially benefited the markets by expunging criminal records of individuals associated with an employees of the market and by helping the markets establish beneficial relationships with state court judges after judge porteous arrived on the federal bench today we will further investigate these allegations specifically we will hear from lewis and laurie mark the bail bondsmen who have firsthand knowledge of judge porteous conduct during the time in question is again worth noting that judge porteous was extended an invitation to make a statement before the taskforce and respond to questions but has so far declined to do so is also worth noting that the task force has permitted judge porteous counsel to ask questions of the witnesses today if the evidence shows that wrongdoing occurred in the task force will make the appropriate recommendations will now hear a brief introduction of the factual predicate from a special impeachment counsel alan baron and please come the table and you may proceed jefferson parish where judge porteous is a state court judge the relationship between judge porteous and the market spans over a decade and covers numerous acts this overview is going to focus on five areas first the general discussion of the nature of the way the bail bond business was operated in the twenty fourth district court second to discuss the relationship between the markets and judge porteous when he was a state judge third a specific focus on the events that occurred in the timeframe surrounding judge poor use his nomination for federal judgeships for the continued relationship between judge porteous and the markets after he became a federal judge and finally the department of justice criminal investigation of judicial corruption in the twenty fourth judicial district court related to the setting of bonds we will be reviewing evidence this morning of how the  with various judges including judge porteous corrupted the bond setting process in the twenty fourth judicial district i'm sure many of us may be familiar with the fact that if an individual is arrested a judge may require that a bond be posted in order for the defendant to be released pending any further court proceedings the defendant who is incarcerated would pay the bondsman in this instance the market's a premium typically ten percent of the bond set by a judge now because the market's income was based on the amount of prima's they would collect obviously they had a vital interest in how bonds were set if the bond is set too low or for defendant was released or no bond the markets don't make any money if the bond is set too high in the defendant can't afford to pay the premium the defendant stays in jail and again they don't make any money they only make money if the defendant can afford to pay them a premium here's how lori marcotte described it she was asked what the consequences were if the bond were said too low or too high here is what she answered it depends on how much money a person had to bail out if they had a little money than having a low bond set would be an advantage to us if they had plenty of money then a higher bond would be set so that the essence of what the markets wanted in order to maximize their revenue and profits was for the judge to set bond at the highest amount which a defendant could meet now there are two particular aspects of bond setting in the twenty fourth judicial district court that were important to understand the relationship between judge porteous and the markets first in that courthouse even though a magistrate was supposedly assigned to set bond bondsman could go to any judge in the courthouse to set bond and bypass thereby bypass the magistrate second a bondsman could go to a judge directly without counsel present no prosecutor or defense attorney being present and associated with setting bond they would bring some of their other employees get to know them occurred several times a month regularly over the history of their relationship when he was a state judge in addition to these regular lunches the markets paid for repairs and maintenance on cars as well as his family car everything from putting gas in the car keeping him cleaned installing car radios buying and installing new tires paying for other repairs on the transmission engines one of the more cots employees mr jeffs testified that at lewis's instructions he quote took care of three of his cars his sons and his wife and two on went on to describe his duties relative to judge cars mostly keeping them and maintain brakes air conditioning anything that was wrong with his automobile three automobiles the markets through their employees also rebuilt a fence at his house and did  brought ron the cash money to pay for the trip and that the financial transaction was handled that way to hide the fact that they were paying for the trip the markets also took the judge's secretary to las vegas and provided her other entertainment first and foremost he said at their request made himself available available to set bond at their request day and night and weekend here's how lori marcotte described the frequency of their request  said when we first started to develop this relationship it was just a little bit but you know this spanned over a long time so in the end it was a lot it was an everyday thing in the courthouse we go to the courthouse to see him in his office calling want to cell phone call him at home contact him through a secretary if he wasn't in the office you would find it for us get him off the bench and when i went to see him they brought numerous ponds rarely just one of the time particulars one part of the bond setting process judge engage in a practice and indeed will see that he invented this practice that was called in the courthouse splitting bonds if the defendant had a high bond set which a defendant couldn't meet judge porteous would split the bond into two pieces one portion backed by the bonds bondsman the surety and a portion back by property or other personal promise to pay so for example if the bond were set at one hundred thousand dollars and the defendant the defendant or the person arrested could not meet that judge porteous would cut it into two such twenty thousand dollars had to be covered by surety bond and eighty thousand dollars just a personal guarantee of the person's relative even though that guarantee might not have a worth anything but this permitted the person to get a bond and the markets therefore were able to charge a premium which they otherwise would not have been able to do as a practical matter is operated as a bond reduction and it permitted the market premiums from people in circumstances were otherwise the person would have one former state judge a former judge bowden heimer testified that he understood that judge porteous was the one who came up with this idea of doing bond splitting similarly lori marcotte testified by judge port splitting and setting bonds for us making it like the norm created the practice of splitting bonds he actually originated this practice splitting by he also he did forty's also assisted the markets in other ways in  two at the market's request to set aside the conviction of one of their employees who i mentioned earlier in connection with the current fence repairs and it's noteworthy judge porteous was not even the sentencing judge in that case but nevertheless he the twenty fourth traditional district court focusing on the markets relationship with state judges and state law enforcement personnel in august of two thousand and one an affidavit was created in support of wiretaps in that investigation in that affidavit stated that the pattern of illegal activity has been occurring for at least eight years that is back to one thousand nine hundred three beginning with judge number two we know that judge number two was in fact judge porteous we've been advised that by people put the affidavit together and note the pattern of illegal activity that they are talking about is precisely the pattern that i have just described th judge porteous engaged in with the markets now i'd like to focus on events in roughly a three month period from august or october of ninety four surrounding the background check with judge porteous in connection with his nomination to be a federal judge then still on parole for the drug offense at that time and significantly the sentence he had received in his burglary conviction as originally imposed did not permit it you could not lawfully set it aside that should be the senate pending his swearing in to be a federal judge judge porteous complied with the markets request and set aside wallace's burglary conviction here's a copy of that order this was two weeks prior to judge being sworn in as a federal judge has to in lewis's words that his deposition quote open the floodgates and quote and have him sign as many bond orders as possible lewis marcotte staff deposition having heard his description of what  efforts on behalf of the markets in that narrow time frame just before he left the bench to my right here is a pile of bail forms it's approximately fifty instances where judge porteous said bonds for the markets in september and october hundred for his last two months on the state bench this is part of opening the floodgates the investigation into this is ongoing this is not all of them or more but this gives you an indication includes several bonds  was confirmed before he was sworn in as a federal judge these of course corroborate louis markov's recollection of his conduct opening the floodgates in the last few days of his state court tenure one hundred sixty thousand dollars even though these are public documents we decided that we would not use the full name of the person who's mentioned in it and in the document for privacy concerns the date of this is october eleventh one thousand nine hundred four shortly  just simply to identify the judge who phoned in the bond it just means that he said he is setting the bond let me cover a couple of these quickly just for the record the name of the date so we can keep track of the forms that are being displayed there is a form for leonard b also dated october eleventh ninety four than donald b also dated october eleventh ninety four and finally here's one for a defendant named craig dated october twenty seventh one thousand nine hundred four the very day prior to referred to the setting aside as illegal and that it occurred quote apparently after the f b i and federal federal background checks were complete now even became a federal judge he continued to maintain a relationship with the markets now why would they want to do that he couldn't set bonds for them anymore but the markets knew that it was very good to have him in their corner to assist them when the circumstances permitted in effect he continued to conspire with the markets to help them in their corrupt bond business one way they would use their relationship with take advantage of his prestige judge was to help them form relationships with newly elected members may recall from our first hearing judge bowden heimer was the one who quoted as telling him that after he became a judge he would never have to pay for lunch again here's how lori marcotte described what she and lewis has to do relative to judge the markets did form a relationship with judge bowden heimer virtually the same to the one that had previously existed between them and judge and as we will ultimately learn judge bowden heimer pled pleaded guilty to a corruption commenced a criminal investigation he referred to as wrinkled road and they were focusing on corruption in connection with bonds sitting in the twenty fourth traditional district court in jefferson parish now you saw earlier affidavit for wiretaps and not investigate the wrinkled rove investigation focused on the markets and their relationships with the state judges and the other law enforcement personnel in march of two thousand and two the f b i had louis mark on under surveillance when he had lunch with several judges at that lunch at emeril's in new orleans lewis market was trying to get to know a newly elected state judge named john band lewis market particularly sought tendency that around march of two thousand and three information about judge porteous his prior relationship with the markets was reported in the press in one article mr du on we've referred to earlier is quoted as stating he repair judge forty says cars did repairs on his house and that judge porteous had set aside his conviction now in april two thousand and three and this is it's really amazingly extremely significant and how closely what i'm about to describe parallels judge porteous is conduct with the markets state judge bowden heimer pleaded guilty to federal corruption charges a mail fraud conspiracy charging that he conspired to deprive the citizens of the of his honest and faithful services as a judge handling bail bonds in criminal cases pending in the twenty fourth traditional district court what is particularly noteworthy is that the conduct that he pleaded guilty to was indistinguishable from the conduct that porteous had engaged in previously and indeed that judge porteous helped set up between the markets and judge bowden time as part of the plea process the government and bowden heimer signed a document in which they stipulated to the fact that supported the charge bowden heimer admitted that he regularly set reduced and split bonds and criminal cases at a level requested by the bail bonding company he was available to the company on a twenty four seven basis and in return he received lunches and drinks a trip to casino and home repairs in march of two thousand and four lewis markov and his sister laurie pleaded guilty to felony corruption charges lewis pleaded guilty to a racketeering conspiracy and notably the conspiracy to which lewis markov pleaded guilty was alleged to have started prior to nine hundred ninety one the charges and that information thus covered the period of his relationship with judge porteous further the charging language to which lewis pleaded guilty describes his relationship with judge porteous the charging document refers to b b q that's bail bonds and limited their company and the conspiracy count alleges certain judges would make themselves available to b b you quickly respond to the requests of b b you and say reduce increase and split bonds to maximize use profits behavior that describes exactly judge porteous his conduct as a state judge who is more caught received a sentence of thirty eight months even today he remains on supervised release lorrimore caught receive a sense of home detention and has completed her sentence significantly told the judge judges who helped the markets over the years including judges boden heimer and another judge name green who were convicted and sentenced to prison judge porteous was identified by both lewis and lori marcotte as the judge who did the most for them lewis's testimony could not have been more clear of all the judges who helped you where would you rank answer number one you didn't even hesitate that response now you're certain of that is that right yes lori marcotte lewis's sister who ran the company with lewis testified similar to was a single most important to the success of your depositions which will be part of the record to supplement their testimony today they are here pursuant to subpoena to describe their relationships with judge thank you thank you i have one question if you could by way background you described how bonds were set in a way to advantage the bail bond company by looking at what the defendant could pay not too high not too low can you just tell the task force a little bit about how a judge is supposed to set a bond in other words what is a judge supposed to look at what is the purpose of the bond and how is a judge supposed to set of course well first and foremost the judge or magistrate who setting the bond should be on the take from the person who's asking them set the bond to start with that but beyond that the role of bail bond is to permit the release where appropriate persons have been arrested consistent with public safety and  that the independent magistrate should determine an appropriate amount that will permit the person to be released if it's appropriate but will also secure the appearance of that person later on when they require to show up at hearings and a trial and that should be a neutral accept whatever it is the bondsman tells him to would be the appropriate bond in fact which our understanding that the markets actually had informants in the jail who would tell them based on their interaction with the exhibits referenced in your presentation will be made part of the record our witnesses today will be louis mark and his sister lori marcotte they will testify together on one panel lewis marcotte was formerly the owner and president of bail bonds unlimited company in the in the operation of his business he has been cooperative and is here pursuant to a subpoena lori marcotte assisted her brother in the operation of bail bonds unlimited in two thousand and four she pleaded guilty to a federal corruption offense in connection with certain conduct on her part in the course of operating the business she has also been cooperative and is here pursuant to a subpoena i will now swear the witnesses would you both please rise and raise your right hand do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to provide the committee will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your knowledge information and belief thank you you may both be seated and m your company bail bonds are limited and what was your role in the company i was a president of the company for twenty five years ok and do you do you know the woman who's sitting at the other end of the table  the accounting ok did she did she know what was going on was she with you when you were doing things and of course the business yes she was she was my partner i want you to take at least one minute up want to policies that we can post at the jail so we get the fan that's out it's not real money it's just a policy that the defendant doesn't show up in court and the courts chaos the policy ok and how did your company i'm going to use the present tense how do you make money in the bell bond with the families we come in and bring us if the buyer was ten thousand sailors we come in bring us a thousand dollars of the ten thousand we bring the policy over to the jail and then we will the thousand dollars for posts and a ten thousand dollar policy of the jail ok how would you walk the members through the process of how a bond amount would  asked the more money the people had the higher the bond the more money we made ok and typically what percentage of the bond or what was the premium that you would make compared to what the bond amount was ten percent of the premium ok so how would you find out how much an individual could pay as part of a premium we would screen the family or the that to find out how much money they had some point we would run credit reports and to see if they had available credit on their credit cards and that's how we determine determine what we would get the bonds how did you get this information from the defendant who was arrested or from the family well when the failure would come in and they would sign an agreement whatever you take a credit agreement on someone you have the right to run their credit report did you interview the prisoners at the  money on him we get the family's number and then we call the families say hey come on down you sons in jail would you like to get them out ok so if you could determine let's say that the defendant had been arrested come up with three thousand dollars what  indicated that there's a magistrate which is typically assigned to setting bond is that correct that's correct but then you raise you would shop the bond around what do you mean by that we'll get there early in the mornin you know five o'clock and if we find twenty fourth yes that was judge and over time did you increasingly go to judge porteous to set bond i'm sorry over time did you increasingly go to jail yes i did ok what i'm going to do is i'm going to return a little bit to what judge porteous did in terms of setting bonds but i want to go through how you developed a relationship with judge porter so that's what my next set of questions are going to how is it that you want about establishing a relationship with judge ok and how is it that you what steps did you take to encourage a close relationship between yourself and judge porteous well what we did we started the word would be groom and rhonda secretar and getting close with her first and then pushing hard to facilitate a relationship between our my sister and i and the judge what did you do to get close to judge in terms of providing him anything of value well we saw i take it in the lunch and that's how it saw that we saw it take it for us we sort of take it rod at a lunch and then we thought inviting him to lunch and then that's how we became that's how we saw the getting very close and i want to talk a little bit about these launches can you just give us a sense of the frequency of the launches  restaurants near the courthouse sometimes when we cross the river depend on how much time we have i think the members might be familiar here with ruth's chris as a steakhouse are these other restaurants comparable to ruth's chris and the cost and then the bear that they serve the beef connection was pretty close to the same cost and was it just you and judge porteous that these launches know would be rhonda it would be some of my stay out of it also would be other judges that sometimes can you give us a sense of what the bills for these meals were amounted to they would run anywhere from two hundred t very conservative estimate or even let's just say three times a month for three years of hundred launches of the hundred launches that you went to a judge porteous at the restaurant described in at the rates that you've described how many of those the judge porteous paid for  didn't pay for any now or is there anything else that you did in terms of providing things of value to judge porter brought shrimp to a fixed found south of the storm blew it down for a second what do you remember doing relative to judge porteous cars and his family's car while we did mechanical work on them how did the car repair start and what did they consist of over time i'm not sure the exact time they problem and those two are also did they go and do that to your knowledge i'm sorry did they do that yes they did and at some time  did you ever take judge porteous anywhere so i took him to lunch and we also went to los vegas i believe twice ok and do you remember a trip to reason the bail bond the bail bondsmen it just doesn't look good with the bail bonds hanging bail bondsmen hanging out with judges so what i did is i brought some attorneys in the make it look good ok and is it your testimony that you think there might have been a second trip to las vegas as well and is there something that you remember as to why there might be it might have been a second trip because we were standing by a slot machine and his wife was asking him to put some dollars to put back in coins you know put back into the slot machine and it's your recollection and you're not sure if that was the one trip that i first asked you about which included  you pay for judge porteous to go to las vegas and on one trip in particular the first one i've asked you about do you recall how it was that the actual mechanics funding judge was paid for by  wrote a check to the airlines and everything it paid for the trip but then other words you paid ramen cash through your sister ok and the one or two trips you remember paying for judge porteous food and drink and entertainment on those trips as well and you remember whether or not what a judge porteous do when he was in las vegas he gayle's the whole time he was the question mr market is why did you do all these things were just porteous what value were you getting by virtue of the fact that you were providing him this value i wanted service i wanted access and i wanted to make money and how was the fact that judge porteous was willing to set bond at your request how did that help you maximize profit because if you said bond hiatt and what t defendant can make that i would have to take credit if you set the bond at exactly what i need then i could maximize the profits of my company as a general matter was he receptive to your request as the exact amount that you wanted the bo the term split bonds has been used just briefly describe what is meant by a split bond and the significance of the practice of splitting bonds for your company what we would what we would do with a split just say to buyers a hundred thousand is offend has three thousand well the judge is like setting high bond because of the came out the newspaper you know it was something happen a guy did something roll that it would look like he got the personal surety was more than anything and the only portion of the bond that was words was the commercial port of the bond was executed by the bail agent and backed by the insurance company and was judged were there some judges who would he was ready willing and able to do it ok and was that helpful to you in terms of being able to maximize your profit that was in addition to setting bonds did you ever make a request of judge porteous relative to  anything unique or particularly unusual about judge porteous setting aside your brother in law jeff felony conviction well that case was allotted to another judge meaning  and at the time when you were in interviewed by the f b i what was your goal in that interview to law to the f b i agents so i could protect forty s and make sure he got where he wanted to go and why was it that you were surroundings the way that he was living his life you know he was galen he was drinking and if you look at the course you could see that he had three or four cause for his you know his itself in his kids and his family and they were really important condition they were in poor condition so did you have a sense of what judge porteous is actually financial condition was well just by looking at it from the outside he never did sit there and say hey look i'm you know i'm negative two thousand in my checking account but by looking at the surroundings in the problems you know with the drink is the cause asking people for repairs and stuff like that you know you would one would think that hey this guy struggling and by looking at the cause you could see that he was struggling ok and when you say one word now or one would think in fact did you have your own personal opinion as to what financial situation was i knew he was struggling because his cause in deplorable conditions and i think that the f b i right up quotes you as saying that the candidate meaning judge porteous will have a beer or two at lunch but as you have never seen him drunk without a true statement you know i lied to the f b i agents again i really wanted to protect him you know why wasn't that a true statement putting aside your own ok and then on the third thing that the report says is that you were not aware of anything in the candidate's background that might be the basis of influence pressure coercion or compromise or what impact negatively on the candidate's character reputation judgment or discretion was that a true statement really wanted and why was that not a true statement because of all his actions with the gambling t drink and well let me ask you very specifically were you aware of your own relationship with judge porteous at the time you may yes and my relationship was you know it was just they just answer the question were you aware of your own relationship with yes i was and in fact did that relationship consist of you having given him things as a federal judge as a state judge i'm sorry did you actually in your own mind feel you had leverage over judge porteous based on your knowledge of the fact that he had taken things from you while he was a state judge yes i did because i believe believe and i will i don't believe i actually think and  basically a secret understanding or a secret relationship with judge porter and in the in the most general sense was that relationship one that you were giving him things and he was taking favorable actions towards  you when you made these statements the f b i in your mind was that just another act that you were taken as part of your secret relationship with george porter and you know how the f b i got your name as a reference i knew that he said i'm ok did you think that judge porteous had an understanding that you were going to make statements which were going to protect him yes and do you think judge porteous would have ever given the f b i your name if you believe you would tell the f b i that he gambling problems drinking problems financial problems and of taking things of value from you know he would never tell them another  i said before and i really wanted him to get license in the only way to get licensed if they set aside or reconviction and did you approach judge porteous to ask him to do that yes idea pushed him and i said you know judge i really need to get this done and so after my confirmation i'll do it and in fact did he do it and in your mind do you have an opinion as to why judge porteous set aside wallace's conviction because all the stuff that i've done for him in the pay off was there any question in your mind that he set aside the conviction as a favor let's open the floodgates and let me try to make as much money as before we left and to judge porteous do that he did and i'm not going to show you the bomb forms but you've reviewed some bomb forms in preparation for your testimony today number one he was a federal judge wright said bring stress to the table whenever he sits down with me and did you want it would make people respect me because you know i'm sitting with a federal judge and and  your bell bondsman with a high school education frankly is that right so it's good for you to be sitting with a federal judge if you're meeting with somebody else right and where there are people who you deliberately wanted to have judge porteous at the table with when you had a lunch or meeting with yes i wanted to try to get as many people to the table with porteous with it when i was because again he brought stress to the table and also wanted him to groom the people that  i was at the table with one of those guys to do bond as well ok and did you feel the judge porteous was particularly influential because he came from the twenty fourth day and was now a federal judge and plus what was judge porteous his reputation at the twenty any judge and i got to the table and i always get to the table because it was always a luncheon and i always thought a luncheon was the best time to develop relationships with another question what did here it wasn't as though you would just have a random lunch and bring judge porteous did you make a request pacifically of judge porteous in any way shape or form to help you judge whether you remember asking use your better yes i did and did you was there a lunch at emeril's restaurant in new orleans where you got where you were but you caused to take place which included judge bench and others yes there was and who was about a thirty second video and from looking at it i just want you to state nothing more than the following just the members the past who's coming out of the restaurant as you see them  four or five times and were some of those times when she was a judge porteous was a state judge and sometimes on a federal judge that's correct you remember any of the hotels you say that i'm sorry i couldn't hear you remember any of the hotels  las vegas we were having a bail bond convention and we asked her to come along was it important to you to have a good relationship with rhonda data of course why was that because she is the secretary of the judge and she has access to him fact that she had been so good to you yes all the time and the judge porteous know you were giving her things to yes in your your recollection  louis testified that you gave cash back from least one last vegas trip to rhonda your call home testifying to that a few minutes ago yes i do and what do you remember about giving cash to rhonda i remember standing in her office with one another attorney was a state judge did you ever try to form a relationship with the judge kerner sorry justice and peace kerner from the fees yes that's correct tell the members about what that consisted of we were trying to get other job he was not just just to set the stage let me get this right you're going to lunch with this person you've never not met with judge and judge porteous is there you go to lunch and your brother not a law book and starts talking to the justice of the peace  mr barron in his introduction earlier this morning talked about an extraordinary number of bail applications that were brought to judge right before he left the state bench and i think i can't remember what the phrase was that was used but mr marker was an effort made to sort of get them all and while he was still on the bench in the state bench  time so meaning you wanted to wear him out by bringing as much as you possibly could do and get them done make as much as you could before he left for the federal bench did he ever raise an objection with your calling him on the weekends or in the evenings or early in the morning before the magistrate showed up you talked earlier testimony about the judge set aside setting aside convictions of two of your employees one of whom was also your brother in law correct and these are folks that only worked for you but that were involved in doing favors for the judge both of them only only in the running capacity i was the one done for the judge in the financial capacity those guys who just  so he was aware that both of these people that he later said a sigh convictions for had been doing favors for him through  until his confirmation took place can you tell us a little bit about that conversation you had to press him did he tell you why he was concerned it would affect his confirmation because if any one newspaper grab hold held hold of it he would be worried that it would feel with him being his confirmation so he was aware that this was something that probably wasn't kosher and for that reason the senate might not confirm him if he knew that he was setting aside a conviction as a favor to  you tell us a little bit about the conversations you had with him where he indicated that he was concerned with confirmation if they found out about this or if the newspapers made it public he just didn't want to make i testified earlier about fixing his car transmission air conditioning radios his son's cars there were three cars i guess involved his cars ok so you would spend about a thousand bucks every couple of months to do various repairs on various cars of the port and how many years would that take place and in terms of what you were spending on the judge at one of these lunches between what he had for lunch at one of the steak houses and i think you testified that he would have five vodka drinks cussing the payment for the trip to las vegas i think you used the term that to disguise the payment for the trip that you took various steps to deliver cash  and to pay directly for plane reservations and that type of thing whose idea was it to make sure that the payment for the trip was disguised how did that come about and others why was that done rather if the judge was going to las vegas with the b didn't go to the richard yourself or you didn't you didn't try to go to that judge first you went directly to judge porteous right in bonds will one thing you know that  evie richards to set aside a conviction would a motion that a lawyer would draw would be totally inappropriate and you didn't have the kind of relationship with the richards where you could go you what arguments to use did you ever make reference to judge you know look at all of the things i've done for you can you do this for me did you ever bring up with him i didn't bring any of that up of you have to be license with the commission of insurance was a license so i was operating illegally in my office negotiating bonds and taking premium because he was a convicted felon without a license and that could cause me problems with the commission of ensure i could be shut down and so at some point the judge said all right he would do it at some point the judge said ok i'll do it and was the conviction in that case set aside by the other judge at the request or did the case get transferred to just so he could set it well there was no transfer in the case he you mention that you were aware of the financial circumstances at the time really at any time did the judge ever ask you for cash rather than help with a car help with something else that he ever asked you for money he never did ask did you ever give him cash no other than the only thing the only thing i ever gave him was gambler when did you become aware of him being a gambler well even before i was really close with him i knew he was at a casino the judge was the one who referred the f b i to talk with you is that based on something the f b i said when they came to see you or why do you think that they got your name from him you know i really don't this is what i told them did he ask you at this lunch the next day or so you know what happened during the f b i interview or what you say or do you remember whether you brought it up or he brought it up  and was it clear in your conversation with him that you that you did not tell the f b i anything about the gifts and fence repairs and other things you had done for the judge the f b i things about your relationship with him that would have harmed his confirmation actually no because david asked those questions about about when we look for that let me ask you a couple more questions the benefit to judge bowden heimer by being available to you in terms of setting bond splitting bonds or any of those things did that either of you ever convey to judge bowden heimer what he could expect from him by way of lunches or car repairs or anything else we never discussed he would just discuss you know how  there was a time that the criminal justice system implemented taxes on every bond that was written so any old days if i had a hundred thousand dollars bond and i wrote my insurance company the premium to the i had a contract with my insurance company that i was one hundred percent liable for every bond that i wrote ok the day i don't pay that by the insurance company cut to be all ok well my point is if you take a hundred if you take ninety percent of the insurance premium then you have all of the risk on the bomb so if you only if insurance company only takes ten percent of the ten percent which ok let me explain at the bottom was a thousand i would get nine hundred me insurance company would get a hundred made three thousand people on a balance if it's a good buy and whether they paid me or not i still made money so what happens as time progressed they started putting in fees at the jail so lawful require they weren't peas you had to pay in order to accomplish anything it was statutory laws that way implemented by the state but originally if you just had to pay what effectively one percent of one hundred  bond insurance company even if you didn't get the full ten thousand you were still making money i was still making money long as i was writing good bonds and not set him up with a balance so what that fifty percent tax came in and now i got one hundred thousand dollars bond and i need six grand that has to go to the insurance company into the court well as judge porteous the first judge who was receptive to your suggestions about how to how to set the bond levels well the taxes came in judges where they are two and then we started developing our own relationship with the judge and now any real old days you know i'm talking about twenty five years ago when i was went to work for a guy who was a all the lawyers to get there by what was would happen to me was going on with this other guy i mean he's the one who trained me you know he's the one who was you know who was the boss reduces with the judges and  do any bail bonding in federal court and how did that work we didn't get a lot of federal bonds because you know they had cash deposits that they had to pay  bonds in the federal system you know he said that he would do it but did he actually do it and just came back and dance with me and said he did i think he may have told me what you know at some point  because he was still viewed him as a friend but you know i needed to start working on other people in the criminal justice system that i could make money well that's why you asked him to intercede with judge bowden heimer and other judges to groom these other people so other people could step in where he left off the interview with the f b i that chairmanship ask talking years later did they interview with regard to judge porteous at that time what matter of a the investigation the wrinkled robe investigation is a interview made yes regarding judge  i know the u s attorney's office didn't because they couldn't interview me because of the situation on the federal bench the u s attorney washington had to do it  you and then you subsequently met with judge porteous did and you told him about your conversations with the f b i is that correct for in ninety four and ninety four no i  didn't meet with porteous in ninety four i met with his lawyer cow shin then subsequently had lunch with judge porteous that correct in ninety four yes yes ok and i told him what i said you know everything that they asked me and you and wh and did did judge porteous understand during your conversation with him that you had lied to the f b i for him i didn't actually say i lied to you judge i just told them everything that he everything they asked me so you know if you could read it i'll the question that he if he was an alcoholic and his court chambers discussing bail bonds at any time i think you know again i don't remember exactly what they have could have been times after he done the bonds he would say by the way jimmy's cause broken you have ski to go pick it up in they also called a have was did he have any conversations with you regarding the timing of  i mean not not with dates but after he was confirmed he would do it so i mean you know was that after it was a couple of months or i don't know the dates but was it a couple of months or a month after he  did it you know but but i mean did he discuss with you when he would do it the timing of it just just i would do it after robin and did judge porteous say he wanted to wait until the last days of his state court term to expunge well as his record because he believed that timing was beneficial in relation to his senate confirmation  that the candidate will have a beer or two at lunch but he has never seen him drunk does that refresh your recollection as to whether he would have told you they asked me about your drinking and would have told you that you told anything in the candidate's background that might be the basis of a tent that influence pressure or coercion or compromise or that would impact negatively on the candidate's character reputation judgment or discretion did you tell judge porteous that they'd asked you that question  do tell him that you told the f b i you weren't aware of anything in his background that might be the basis of attempted influence pressure coersion or compromise or that would impact negatively on his character reputation judgment  so going into his confirmation was aware that the f b i was not given the information it would need to evaluate his character reputation judgment and discretion  that given the wrong information given the wrong information at this point let me turn to my colleague mr actually and actually we have five minutes thirty seconds before the vote on the conference report we are going to have to nothing that would embarrass the president did you think in one thousand nine hundred four did you have any dealings with him that might have embarrassed the president if it was known that he was nominating a person of this time and do you believe the relationship that you ha point we will recess we have three votes which will probably take about a half an hour so we will resume at two thirty and i expect to be fairly brief when we come back ok only two  and i think you said earlier that you thought over the period of three or four years that would probably have been in excess of ten thousand maybe not in excess of twenty but you thought it would be in excess of ten thousand for all the vehicles  mr market i would just like to get some things clear my own mind i practice law in california i'm trying to figure out how you're bail bond operation work compared to what i was used to in california when you talked about  the bonds that you would attempt to get i understand from your standpoint to make more money the higher the bond that the person could pay the higher the amount that you were able to get but in the courts that we're talking about was there in the jails or was there a schedule of recommended bail for particular offenses c judge i mean i'm sorry in california they have a bond schedule that i'm familiar with all the states on bail and all of them in california they have a bond schedule right well in louisiana they only have a bond schedule on misdemeanor charges so a approved by the second powers judge for that schedule so when when you were informed that you had a person who wanted to utilize your services who was charged with a felony you would either go to the magistrate is that correct or try and shop to a favorable judge if there was a favorable magistrate i would go to that person they will unfavorable and i know that  four the magistrates would rotate every week but at some point they got away from that they came up with a person a magistrate that would sit all of the time so you would make a determination as to whether it was a quote unquote favorable magistrate and if it were not you would on occasion attempt to shop judges that is to find a favorable judge and in this process where was the and if there were a subsequent hearing on bail would you could there be a subsequent hearing i don't like a motion to reduce the bond yes yes they would have motions to reduce the bond but it doesn't most of the time we didn't need  and you hunt him down and you bring him back would your bond be returned to you would your bond be real what happened is the what's the defendants found the courts would exonerate the bond and then the it actually started way before porteous but it never went to the degree that it was when it was would you explain what you mean by that excuse me would you explain what you mean by that well in the old days you know i'm talking about before portis is a judge the only arrested two three or four people a day in jefferson parish will at the end of my career in the they were arrested three hundred people a day i mean you know we we had to get the bond split to make a lot of money and so when you say we had to that what response would you get from him he would he would do the bonds when you say do the bonds he would he would you know he was going to buy anyway but if i told him he'd step it up acknowledged the wrongfulness of what you were engaged in in the sense of not wanting to do certain acts confirmation for example can you give us any other instances where through what the judge said or did it was clear to you that he knew that the relationship he had with you was not above board i mean only call bobby and my go to guy can you can you describe a little more whenever i needed to get something done he was my go rich relationship became public well if your relationship became public or something you were asking to do became public did he ever indicate to you that any part of your relationship needed to be kept confidential no he didn't he i guess you know everyone in the criminal justice system knew that he was my go to guy it was no secret and let me because i thought maybe we were above the law and with the only exception to that be when the f b i came to talk to you about judge porteous i'm sorry what was exception to that rule when the mr mark out where you the one that the judge communicate that to tell you that he had spoken to other judge and that it would be ok i don't remember a whole lot about that but what i do remember my lawyer that was representing me to to defend me on the nine compete against the dentist am lee went into the judge's office  and the clerk at a judge's office had said look this looks real good in your favor and then about a day later he came back and said l attorney that was representing me did he speak to anyone about it i'm not exactly sure but it's possible he may have spoken to rhonda so  that's you know it's been a long time and these underlined points were like talking points for the judge to use in his conversation with the other judge this would be the points that  give porteous to hang his hat on to the judge he was going to request to deny the nine complete and at some point after saying those documents you got word back although you're not clear on was communicated to you from judge porteous that he had contact the other judge and look like things will be alright it looks like things are going to be alright but then a couple days later my attorney who was that communicated with turn during your your case down do you recall any follow up no i did not and i think you mentioned it was a third time when the judge intervened with another not remember the employee name you brought this up in the context of other other actions or things the judge said that indicated he understood the wrongfulness of what he was doing during these three or more times when you asked the judge to intervene with another judge the judge ever ever say to you yes i'll do it but you know you're asking a lot of maybe this is really not something i'm supposed to do did he ever testimony i'm sure it wasn't something you were looking forward to but we appreciate your coming to share your experiences with us without objection the record will remain open for five legislative days for the submission of any other additional materials  this hearing of the task force is now joined