the police department who mission meeting for april seventeenth six pm are there any additions or modifications to the amended agenda ok i think we've ok we are halfway done with the agenda here they sixteenth you want to actually can can i ask the person who should get credit for doing a lot of the work issue though this aspect of the report ye report i thought it's good to talk about that it certainly got a lot of coverage in the news it looked at statewide car stop data from thirteen to fourteen so we can discuss that as well there are some interesting findings in there but i thought as long as we're going to be discussing that it will be helpful to discuss as the broad simplest commission the the broad complete department data from twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen so we have now is our data all the way up to the end of twenty seventeen which is four months ago it's all been analyzed we can compare it to the statewide trends we can compare it historically to our trends we put together a report about it and if you don't mind that actually i think we'll walk through it but the analysts put a lot of work into this you have the written product in front of you we can go through it and of course take questions during or after and see where it goes so this is an assessment of equity and policing next slide please so one of the things that we realize is that there's disparate outcomes in several facets of motor vehicle enforcement some of them have explanations we can discuss others the explanations are slower in coming but one of the things we did kind of you know we're working on these all along but since i got here i know i took ownership of trying to do a lot of them myself and our administration guys and if you want to set up so we can just off a little bit well the news in the  this on good thanks all right so there are some things we did to help ensure that we have more equity and less asperity in the outcomes of our traffic enforcement the first thing we did is we gave cops and hence training  interdiction techniques so that is of cops are pulling a car over the side of the road and they're making assessments about the level of suspicion they have towards a driver of the vehicle or passengers that it's based on good investigative techniques it's based on knowledge of how to  ask questions and interview people it's based on on proper law so that the searches are more likely to be fruitful when they do conduct them the second thing is we've had really frank conversations  explanations and causes and remedies of implicit bias so one of the things we did is number one just in house talk about implicit bias but as you also know as of recently we had dr brian marks come to give every branch employee plus community members plus other officers outside the department training in identifying remedying implicit bias that was sort of like the capstone of conversations we were having over the course of the last at least two years that roll calls were talking about the fact that you know bias exists in everyone not just the police but people in society in various ways but it's acutely felt in policing because police have bias power and that has implications when people act based on their biases we talk to cops about the magnitude of these disparities right that like a twenty percent spread in the outcomes of searches has implications that many people find troubling and that are in fact difficult to explain if you look at them on their face we looked at  the stress that motorists are under when you stop them no matter who they are we talked about the perception that border so call or have of the police that it's historical as well as local based here and we also did something which is about a year and a half ago we gave officers access to the outcomes of their own stops and we allow them to compare those outcomes to their peers anonymously so you can see as a driver's about a year and a half ago as i'm sorry you could see as an officer who you're stopping the race of who you're stopping the outcomes by race of who you're stopping and then see how that compared to to your peers so you understand the magnitude of this we also understand your performance and we also talked about implicit bias so those are fo discreet interventions that we did were to try to enhance equity of the burlington police department yes yours you know please god well i mean when you're describing that i'm just wondering if there's if there's a piece of that that is like supervision t unsupervised right unless you're going to arrest somebody or a significant incident happened you want to take the car back for a search warrant it's a transaction that happens throughout american policing with minimal supervision so i know you may be asking a slightly different question what i mean i'm saying when somebody is reviewing their data when you were just describing like they can they can compare it to other other officers data unanimously whoever with anonymous and yeah that makes sense right and yeah but i'm just wondering if there's if there's a piece that well it's hard i mean it comes from myself and schieffer right and it comes from the headquarter section what what we don't what's difficult to do is to have a sorry to tell us sergeant like sergeants are good at finding expletive bias right there or reacting to the way an officer behaves around other people but to say there's a spread in the outcomes of who you're giving tickets to and who you're giving warnings to i want to sergeant to be on top of that is is you  saying it's hard to i understand what the sergeant would say without knowing more because well you see later on in the presentation suspended licenses have a huge effect on the outcome of a stop and so you know i guess what you're asking is does a sergeant sit down and have a conversation with an officer about a disparity in race or does a lieutenant do that the answer is no i just think it's a really difficult conversation that that those supervisors don't know necessarily command level yeah and i think i mean i also could maybe talk about this more i've been involved in a lot of this stuff even recently with the panel we're hoping that i actually resigned but i'm hoping that they there will be some more models in like systemic ways to integrate supervision into the reviewing of data and i think the vermont state police i've heard maybe that they're doing some of that where i mean and whatever the supervision it was whether it was  i just feel like it's information that should be used right way no i see you're saying and i guess to be candid it's a very very difficult conversation for supervisors to have you know you don't have training in these issues of equity in public administration or the comfort level to really talk frankly about them i think until you been doing this a while and rise to the ranks it's like we select chief space in their ability to engage with these issues but it's we have to develop a curriculum around that really create a comfort level and so we don't have that now and chief burke was really good about sharing that meeting last mean that he was that he was really candid inch and shared his own process of reviewing and triage process what was going on so don't know so it's a good point when ideally we would be able to address it at every level of supervision but we're not there yet we're going to slide things aren't so these are measures of discrimination a possible bias or people of color are more likely to be stopped in the first place are they more likely to be ticketed rather than war are they more likely to be searched and then we say we don't use the term gold standard it was one of the things that professor guido used but the gold standard is not the search per se but the hit rate which is the likelihood of finding contraband given a search so you could argue the probable cause is probable cause and you're always entitle to act on probable cause but if you're acting on probable cause and it's not bearing fruit are not being successful as often with drivers of color as white drivers and what was impugning that cause in the first place right the worry is that blackness or brownness imputes a level of criminal suspicion in and of itself that's unwarranted and causes a definition of profiling so differences in the hit rate are often taken as evidence of at least implicit bias and bias and i think this is really compelling when you look at the research around car stops and race data this is a standard that people go to as one of the most telling standards of a bias and it's something that we need personally as well as professor you know you go to what what extent are black drivers likely to get a warning versus white drivers when you look at straight data you can see that black drivers are the lighter line white drivers of the darker line you can see that white drivers across the years are more likely to get a warning black drivers are less likely to get a warning more likely to get a ticket that's a fact right and i know stephanie pointed this out as our data it prevails over five years this is a point though something i think it's important to control for that if we're looking for justice and equity in vermont we have to contend with that's a license violation so next slide please this is the idea if you have a suspended license or no license at all but especially suspended license the chances of you getting a warning instead of a ticket are tiny the reason why is because you have a suspension because you failed to answer prior tickets if you have a warrant if you have no license should it be on the road in the first place so the thought in jurisprudence and i know there's a lot of attorneys here and people who legal background this is not declining or less serious consequences to escalating behavior it's the same or greater consequences to escalating behavior so if you get a ticket don't answer get a ticket don't answer  an answer your license get suspended when you get pulled over again the answer is not we know you don't answer tickets and we're just going let you go it's your getting into the ticket or if it's a criminal suspension you're getting interest so when you factor out suspensions and you factor out not having a license just those two things the warning rates collapse some years black drivers are war and more often than whites some years there's a few three percentage point difference in some years that equal over the course of the years in two thousand and twelve twenty seventeen black drivers and white drivers it is sickly equally likely to get a warning that's if you control for a license violations so it's an important caveat but when you look at license violations cops give tickets for license violations in the ninety six percent of the time we talk later on in the report about their social and racial justice implications of why people end up with suspended licenses but if you are a driver so the bottom line is if you're  man driver or you're a few driving in vermont and you get pulled over and your license is not suspended if you have a driver's license and it's not a suspended license the chance of you getting a warning or take it year to year is equal whether you're black or white right but there's a whole other  can of worms opened up with social justice and equity in what people have to spend licenses and will discuss i mean especially when you think about the overall demographics of vermont right it's not even a lot of us here so kind of adds like a layer well this is a percent thing though it's a ratio so it's not the overall number but the point so no but no but you're right in the last i mean if we already know that there are disparities in traffic stops over the past decades as long as i have been looking at it concentrated on black and white and it's a great question because there are many races in many colors in many shades of racial identity is that the numbers for hispanic and asian are are so tiny that it is it's sort of not ritz when it comes to suspensions so responsible to draw considerable conclusions about it we're talking about some of the information over previous years really showed that some of those groups were being overlooked in terms of you know quoting you can look at on the back of the report there's the actual numbers for the last three years so we're not trying to suppress those numbers to say that they don't exist in an important it's just start looking at the two most predominant thank you numbers i mean if you look at there were twenty seventeen for example just to get like no hispanics searched and one white one asian driver searched again in twenty sixteen there were no hispanic search to age for asian driver search these are really really small numbers i don't know nancy or kayla if you want to talk about the problem of numbers and statistical significance for him and it's still officer perception to rice well it just comes down to when there's  about what's happening with asian and hispanic drivers is based on the tiny number i don't know if you agree with that if you disagree i need to know you must as titian but that's the well i definitely agree for when we're looking at sort of couple drafts for tickets and warning there's probably what what license violations do and to put a finer point on it when when our car stops show that when burlington police officers make a stop six percent of the time a white motorist has a suspended license fifteen percent of the time a black border says a suspended license that's not a value judgment or casting aspersions or saying anything negative about the black driving population i think there's a big we'll talk about you can think about a lot of reasons from the we'll talk i'm just kind of saving them for last but why in vermont a person of color feels awkward fighting a traffic ticket or does not the money to pay it in the first place what's that got in the first place what if they're likely if you factor out the license violations there's likely to get a warning is a ticket in the first place so they're no more likely statistically to get a warning or take in the first place i don't know if you're asking the question that i was wondering about is was there any question is it more likely to get stopped any requests and he worked on why people are actually getting stopped and that's not on the lying in significance to this writer no no it's not it's not so one of the interesting things if you look at the data two is that we're stopping fewer people overall including fewer drivers of color in two thousand and fifteen there were four hundred sixty black driver stop two dozen sixteen there were three hundred eighty two black drivers stop two thousand seven hundred two hundred ninety three black driver stops that's you know one hundred and sixty seven fewer stops of black motorists over the course of the three years so there's just fewer interactions just i don't imagine finding out somebody doesn't have a license you don't ride around checking license plates or part of it too i think there's a way in a city like this in every can talk to this there are some in my too there are some cops who know driver's licenses  that could have a compounding effect on getting stopped and pulled over getting more tickets right yeah maybe having time the guy to drive his right so another thing to follow up on would be as the commissioner pointed out is why people getting stopped in the first place you want to see if drivers of a particular race and we're going to get pulled over for equipment violations right well likely get pulled over for having a suspended or expired registration or expired inspection again because that deals with the ability to pay for things that deals with  the ability to take off work and you have the type of job you are going to spend the day getting a car inspected or again i graduated in a car in vermont is expensive i found that out the hard way i was astounded at how expensive it was and if that's the reason for getting pulled over and then you get tickets  starts a vicious cycle which is what you're talking about one of the indications would be coming out of a cycle like that is just year after year we're stopping fewer cars in general and we're stopping fewer murders of color and fewer white voters for that matter  hit rates are one officer believes that he or she has probable cause to make a stop what percent of the time do they find contraband in the stop and i'll give you an example of something that people find troubling and i agree with which is that if you stop white motorists and decide to search them and you're getting contraband sixty eight percent of the time when you're stopping black motorists in deciding to search them and getting contraband fifty four percent of the time the worry is that as  me significant difference you're imputing a suspicion on your encounters with black motorists that's not corresponding with the recovery of contraband so that's an indication that there's a bias and something about the quality of the encounter that has nothing to do with the objective a suspicion and one of the things that that could be is the race of the person and you know there are all sorts of stereotypes you can play into that we've all talked about them like oh you know this could be a guy up from new york city bringing drugs into town i want to i want to search him or  you know hey i smell some marijuana on this way to arrive and i smell it on this black driver men are going to pursue the lead on this black driver because you know man he could have something in the car because of a surfer something about the person's race like that's an indication of potential bias we were really really frank with cops about this every time i speak about race data i say this is the one of the most important concerns we have stocks are intrusive they're very very stressful and they have big consequences so we have to be very careful about how we perform them we've also done better interdiction training so what you see here we can go all the way back but we started with twenty fifteen the disparities increase as we go back not tremendously but they are more than twenty percent spread we go back twenty fifteen when i got here there was a fourteen percent spread in the hit rate in two thousand and sixteen it's not significant but it's worth noticing that they reversed like officers were seventy three percent likely to find contraband on black motorists sixty nine percent of white mortars such as the four percent spread it doesn't that's not significant it shows a reversal of the trend and then this last year they were what's important to note two things more likely than ever to actually find contraband so they found that over eighty percent of the time on both races a motorist eighty percent of black drivers eighty three percent of white drivers so you're going in twenty fifteen where cops are number one finding contraband like fifty sixty percent of the time less often for black drivers to the next year with a finding at about seventy percent of the time and equally drivers of both races the new year after that eighty percent of the time and equally in on on both races so it's a i burlington like this you know the state police they should offer their own account like our cops don't go into these car stops thinking they going to find the mother load of heroin or the kilo coming up from new york city almost all the time it's marijuana related the officers know that and  we've said it like with marijuana becomes legal here in short order it's going to really i mean someone can say the officers i smell marijuana and you and the driver can say yes you do because i smoke at home half an hour ago or not when they probably say a few hours  ago what causes i give you to go further and you know the answer is is much much much less or none right very little so i think a lot of these searches throughout the state of vermont not just in burlington are going to go down because this one offer a level of formal suspicion anymore when so to answer a question it's not a pretext it's just a thing worth saying for the a pretext is the traffic vial right or the reason for the stop and then the reason to go further is the criminal suspicion that the smell of marijuana arouses i think i don't know what the judges are going to say but thinking about what they might say the judge would say the simple smell of marijuana in and of itself is a smell of a substance that is legal to possess consume in our state so what else was it work that allowed you to take the search further and it would have to be something like noticeable impairment like the body camera the evidence have to show the slurred speech watery eyes really bad driving in indicating you know impairment or a quantity of are one of the two legal which would be what more than two ounces something like that in personal possession the chief is looking at other people so it's going to be more than an ounce so the person for some reason like alan cheech and chong had like a like a like you know a pound the marijuana in the back i think right that's still or smoke right indicating that so thank you like you know something if smoke is coming out like indicating re consumption of marijuana that that's different you know not to smoke in a car but it will foreclose an avenue of criminal investigation that's been open for a while and i think it will change the the course of of  are question the as far as the searches go to do you break them down by consent yes so these are two types of searches these are consent searches we don't break out consent but we break investigator and a person with you know just twenty years in the bronx in police perceval like how you think that the numero don't want to laws might change behavior the police behavior car s but it's not it's just a simple smell no longer be an indication of a crime and i think it's important that when we talk about my one of the number one thing is is public safety and the number one thing with public marijuana is operating a vehicle one out of four people killed my sixty three fatal motor vehicle crashes in twenty seventeen one in four had the presence of t h c the main mind altering ingredient found in the kind of us plant that's the amount apartment health putting that out so i'm just saying not to draw a conclusion about that here but that's what we're concerned about so if that's true about just like getting marijuana off the streets at all cost out soon corporations were making huge profits off marijuana here in vermont in no time so long way to say it and there's kind of what you started by asking is that most of these searches are for marijuana they're based on probable cause or reasonable suspicion that marijuana is in the vehicle and with marijuana becomes legal that avenue will be foreclosed the police i predict you will see a decrease statewide here in searches period we read the narratives of these and and found that sometimes the driver would hand to an officer the officer would say there was contraband found but it wasn't officially a search and so we excluded those from the city and then also there were ticket errors where if an officer stopped a car and searched for drugs and then only gave a ticket for the drugs but not for the traffic violation it just wasn't showing up in our data set of data here now closer to the present time but this is not a new thing i mean this is you know professor suing over at the sop in a lot of her analyses and frankly a lot of police department say our data is no good so you can't draw too many conclusions from it like my exactly comfortable with that i'd rather draw the conclusions that we can draw off the best data we have it's i'm saying a lot of folks offer a defense to the disparities saying well there are disparities but the data is not good like no i want good data i mean i'll i'll take the best estimates we have will conduct our audits and we'll go with what we know and so we think our data in recent years is actually pretty robust but one of the things you worry about is the data in the past might be better or worse i mean there were there were successful searches collection is required by law right maybe we should go back and update the law to say it needs to be good data right i mean and i think that you know you're right about that i think our data is getting better every year and i think we have a staff that like star data i think that a lot of police department remonde comply with the law as best they can and i don't speak for that there are five six seven ten twelve person police departments they day and a lot of them make make traffic enforcement a big part of what they do i'd love for them to have more accurate data all i'm saying is that the comparatively our data is probably pretty good it's been talked about as a model absolutely yeah and the state police are excellent at getting on top of their data and  within our city and within the country i mean there's no way around that like the people of color very oversized burden in a lot of different ways in our state and you see it when they go to get a cup of coffee or not at starbucks so the point is it's not hey we're done here it's that we made important we become more self aware we made progress in very very important ways within the police department but as part of the overall upward trend and continuing the path towards more self awareness so one of the things that is important to note is that black drivers are stopped more often as a percent of the population than white drivers so we'd like to get a better handle on that one of our next projects is going to be as eric kratovil brings up is it equipment violations is it expired registration is it expired inspection what's driving the difference in the stop rate we also want to see if we can do what's called a veil of darkness test which is in the middle of the night the chances of you knowing who's driving by race behind the wheel are significantly diminished during the day you're more likely to know who's driving so does the disparity in who stopped persist across the hours of the day or does it diminish it night and increase during the day right that's an important task that i know  percent of the time during stops and whites are search one percent of the time that type of disparity exists year to year consistently in fact this is on the high end so that is something that we want to understand the gold standard is when you do the search are you getting the contraband we want to stand why we're developing probable cause and reasonable suspicion by across races in the first place and is it a bias towards you know and i've said this many times do you smell marijuana coming out of a car that's driven by two white students with the a b m sticker and not pursue that lead although you would have found contraband but you with the same fact pattern with two black occupants pursue the lead right about fifty so in twenty fifteen there are fifty three searches a motor a city wide total for the year in two thousand and sixteen if you can add the numbers up on the back it's fifty four last year was fifty so it's a rare thing for all races considering that we make anywhere from three to five thousand traffic stops and if you look at the you know we care about like the lived experience of of vermonters and from owners of color the disparities are real the outcomes are real the problems with person that's a real thing it's a real you know for them you know i think when we think about really really troubling things like stop question first going to your he talking about a city of eight million six hundred thousand stop questions and frisks that's a much more invasive the importance of what's going on at every few or stop or every each unsuccessful stop that doesn't occur meaning we don't get it suits you scuse me each unsuccessful search for each viewer search is like a measurable difference in the lived experience of the of the population of people being searched like so the small numbers how small the facts each decrease in that number has a big effect on the total i mean that's that's if you follow what i'm saying to follow if i'm saying because i'm not being precise the other thing is that there are fewer stops happening than ever i think that one of the things that cops see is that they're stressed stops will be scrutinized you can talk about their experience in traffic court i mean a lot of cops say that they have a very very hard time prevailing in traffic  and how much they prepare that's a whole story for another time but we've seen since twenty fifteen a forty percent decrease in the number of stops total for across all races so we're stopping forty percent fewer motorists which for interesting about that is that accidents have not gone up so one of the one of the conversations i've had with my officers is if you're doing stops to promote traffic safety and you're doing many many many fewer stops and the accident rate is staying the same we have to consider how vital is is as a as an intervention because it's an intervention against every day people you know we're not there borders for motorists they're your mom your kids your neighbor and it's very stressful for them and it has serious consequences and when we do him apparently when we do a lot of or a little over forty percent fewer it's not changing the accident rate we just have to think about them as a as an intervention and whether they're worth it or not not to say that they're not worth that they they are but we have to be careful it would be more important just to go after red lights and stop signs in unsafe lane changes and less so about equipment less so about inspections right it's important asking like how does an expired inspection make the road more dangerous how does insurance i'm going to be firm i got have insurance if you know these are machines that could hurt someone but registration having not paying vermont for registration does not necessarily make the road less safe so we have to contend with that i think these are important questions unless they i give the caviar that they're a big social implication suspended licenses if you think about we're getting a ticket means you want to fight if you want to fight it you got to pay it it's expensive poverty and race intersect across america as well as here in vermont it's harder for people in poverty to pay to we don't have we ever aggressive ticketing system whether you drive a lamborghini and a tesla or a twenty five year old hyundai same price for the ticket right but your ability to pay is vastly different if you want  afford to take a day off you have to go there and have the courage to either number one the money to hire a lawyer if you have the money to hire a lawyer or maybe just want to pay the ticket i don't know but you have to have the money to hire a lawyer to know how to find a bore you have to know how to engage with a lawyer which for a new american or refugee or english is a second language person is difficult if you can't afford a lawyer have to go argue that to get yourself so cops will say listen when i go to traffic court i always feel like the court about whether on the winning and or losing and that's a cop going into the glum prospects imagine a person who doesn't want to take a day off who's boss wants them back at work a dozen of them wanting to take you can't afford a lawyer and doesn't know the court system going into that it's very intimidating so i know that you know the a g t don't even have a license restoration program it was a very short  hand in hand with with equity so it's kind of the the thought i know you know you've got questions along the way but if you have any other questions i guess this would be a good time to bring them out all right and again this is this will be a continuous thing right it's not we did our traffic stop analysis and we're done it's just the first installment so you can look forward to more thank you thank you mission outreach but work to support sarah and the victims behind the scenes officer bartle went out of her way to keep him up to date so that he could do his job as a friend a counsellor she's exactly the kind of person we the others are a bit longer i don't know if you want to get further into them but they're you know it's often every week i'm getting reports from you it's good to know it's good to hear so next is an update on the process involving officer complaints i don't we it's and then i don't know we're going to do it again periodically meeting i don't mean to you not to give a church or if you wanted to discuss stuff and he said we knows reply all right yeah so i thought it would be good to in conjunction with that discuss our report but i didn't mean to preclude  comments on stephanie's i mean and i think what i'm i might do you know i i was realizing that some people might not have read it and so maybe since we had the presentation about this departure we could make sure everybody has a chance to look it over i mean she does have a you know at the beginning like some of the her main points or whatever but i think it might be good for people to look at it and then maybe follow up at the next meeting and have a conversation about it so i sent out links to her recent report and one from the year prior as well they were out they were in the commission email so you can just get them right there on my yeah i think it would be good and i think it's i've actually been involved in both you know obviously looking at it here but also on a state wide perspective a lot of you know is a lot of stuff going on about that right now so i think it's important for us to continue to talk about it center this review and i said that we were going to discuss a report and in this one she said she had to pass tonight which is what she's always engaged on right so maybe we could let her know if she wants to come the next one you know it's always nice to have ok so where are we commissioners updates or comments i mean i've told people you know let people know that i was the chair of the attorney general's panel on racial disparities in the criminal and juvenile justice system and it was an advisory panel and we submitted a report and then i resigned so in the vice chair resigned to was kind of dramatic  but and so i think that they're in the process of replacing the chair in the vice chair but a lot of times these conversations and of course the you know the state wide information is something that we're having conversations about all the time you know and i just resign because it's i mean if anybody has seen the charge it's huge and doing it as a volunteer was just too much like i just feel like the work isn't going to get the justice it needs with volunteers and so and i'm also just kind of cutting back on volunteering so anyway i mean we i took it six months and then resigned and i think the work is going to go on but anyway i just want to let people know about that and i'm not th justice center anymore but i'm still involved in a lot of things in the community and yeah so i just wanted to share that with people and everything else have anything any updates and i had one question just to unfair disorderly conduct arrests and that that had a disproportionate impact on people of color what we found is that most law in vermont is fairly straightforward you know murder is murder assault is assault i'm simplifying it a little bit disorderly conduct really really mean in practice what is abusive behavior mean what is allowed what isn't reasonable is mean and it varies from county to county so we're finding that cops training the police academy are just trained in the statute don't go any further because different counties have different case law it's not like completely different across the state but those very we've found that our young officers who are the ones out there on the street more likely to make these arrests didn't understand the case law and it wasn't the fault no one had taken the time here or there to tell them this is what unreasonable noise means in in practice when a jury gets their instructions this is what you know a tumble to fighting means is what abusive language means  so we're hoping that officers when they do make this really kind of to wrestle will be able to make the right the sermon and cite the right case law and i've been in touch with the issue letting them know we've identified that that correction and i've got to stress it's not that's because  union walked in it wasn't the cops didn't have the knowledge to make the right charging decisions and it was an oversight we're going to give it to him as far as the fair impartial leasing policy training one of the things the cops know the skeleton of it already but the training is good because you give several scenarios about your county or a person at the roadside and you believe that there are undocumented or ice calls you and says we need to know where this person is going to get released with a citation or whatever the answer is they have to it's scenario based about encounters that cops typically engage in so that we can but make sure that in that very practical way they know when they can and can contact the federal government and when they can and can't prolong the tension and everything like that that's going out  or after the block training that's a document we can share with you it's not a secret plan to me but i mean there there's still that language in there that says that if they want to they can that's the federal law again i mean right i know you're i mean it's the from the city attorney to the state's attorney to to you know the state attorney general at the that that's that's the federal law we cannot prevent officers from communicating about immigration status with the federal government but any time any cop communicate to the federal government here period we want to know about it you can't just be off calling the feds on your own so if they do it we are interpretation of the laws that we can say in advance have to go to supervisor you can exercise your rights and the federal law but you have to tell a supervisor what you've done so that will be department policy and that's not to single out immigration for saying it's like if i found out if any of us found out you were just off calling the f b i on your own we take issue with that too and so i know you know you there is that tension about their ability to communicate but that's the law and what they can't do as a way of treating people fairly is pretty robust you can't prolong the detention but you can't inquire about immigration status unless it narrowly relates to a criminal investigation which it often doesn't you can't hold onto someone for us and even know how it would i say you can't hold on to someone for a civil detain or right you can only act when there's a criminal warrant for an immigration violation signed by a judge and these are all things that they go a long way to protecting our crime victims and our witnesses and people at the roadside who are documented  and just i think the sentiment is the cops it doesn't weigh on them heavily for two reasons number one you know we're not in a group agricultural enclave here where we see a lot of undocumented workers and it's never o cops have never been been focused on immigration enforcement ever to begin with i check in i'm sorry to just use you gene but gene is a union delegate i check in with the union often saying is this an issue are cops contending with it i mean i don't you know have to you you want to say anything feel free but when you write cops are like man i let one get away just not that's not we're fortunate in that way i mean and i think our caution rise to the task of being fair but it's not this thing that's that's happening often please both those trains those remote areas that become really highlight ability for the officers and so we want to make sure they have all the information they can to make the right decision and we don't want them to be violating federal law we don't want to know not explain that to them but we also don't want to be violating the rights of the folks that they're encountering as it relates to that sort of the conduct arrests you know they're the ones that two o'clock in the morning when there's two thousand three thousand drunk college kids down and you have a couple of people yelling and hollering and posturing and screaming and when you go to arrest those folks it usually involves some sort of physical encounter where the officer can get hurt somebody else can get her you know for making unreasonable seizures as relates to the fourth amendment that opens us up about my billet and so we really feel it's important for them to understand the case law as it relates around these arrests so that they know you know this is a case that is not going to be recognized by the core do this case law has you don't lawful arrest and therefore i'm not going to make an arrest in this case because it's not going to stick and i could get hurt the other person could get hurt it could open in myself or the department you know liability all sorts of things so both very important trainings for two completely different reasons but you know both very important for the folks that are out there to be aware of and think about so i mean and i know that there are a lot of ways that officers interact in and you know intervene in situations like that short of a resting on even the presence of them downtown has an impact so you know there's a lot of other things that can happen deescalating situations with that don't end up in arrest and i've seen that happen mentioned that maybe a commission could yeah right now it's a secret location i'm just kidding it's it so seven days actually by the commission minutes and there were a story about it i don't know if you this point i think it's a d p w we got it made on one side of the truck the new jersey fabricator got camel's hump wrong and we just cannot have that reversed so we have to drive the thing back down to new jersey to get camel's hump the right way you know that's definitely rolled out for everyone to see at the barbecue i'm out anyone to see it because i wanted to a try to lay concerns about how it's going to be used and i know that's fine and i see it it may be fine if it may not be but i thought seeing it first would be a user thing first thing to do and i'd be amenable to that i mean i'd love to but i'm being serious it's to have a war for the commissioner to have the officers that run the truck you know give an orientation just to the police commission or we can do it in a night where we can let the public know we'll be doing the orientation and we can have part of our meeting i don't know what you need what the cameras but we're going to have a meeting maybe outside for a bit in good weather if it ever becomes spring so yes in the next way to deal with officers after they've been involved in critical incident and it sounded like one sort of extending the time that they're not back out on the job and this wondering like what's our policy and like you know i'm concerned about wellness i try to bring it up as often as i remember yeah i mean the state police reporting officers are troopers back in the field pretty quickly after shootings that we had you know what troop or who is involved and multiple shootings in and two of them very close to each other and they realize that that's a very risky thing and just not good for the officer i know you work with sunny often about this you're probably the best person to speak to this might refer them to someone else or might say this and they have the head about them and then it's weeks before they go back to the field to number one for investigatory reasons number two just to you know we put him in a place we just we we keep him here and i put this year to do and luckily i mean not going with this is not a very frequent frequent thing but it's good to know and i thought that i mean we've talked about that before but it was just good to know i'm i mean i think the next thing that we have is an update and encouraging attendance i mean i don't always do that as america that there was a friend of mine that was going to come tonight but she's not here and in all of the different you know community things that i'm involved in i always encourage people to come on sometimes i do sometimes i don't i know there's a lot of people that it's it's easier for me to get them to show up at the library for like one of the things and say that you  guys will continue to do those we're not necessarily going to do it every once a month but at least you know maybe a few over the summer but i do encourage people to come up with a lot of people don't even know that it's a public  or at least write maybe contracting with them and emergency you need to join to do a search or some stor