and more particularly it's what is a navigation object and we had repeatedly argued that the claim some cells are very clear on what a navigation object is if we look at the claims and they're the same similar languages used in both patents but in each case there's three elements a start position or a start indicator indicator may mean the same thing and stop position or an end indicator object limitation there are sublimity each of which after we met in order to get the navigation that is true if you don't have all three of those elements you do not have a navigation object that is correct so when the claims themselves are very clear on that point and what i want to point out and emphasize is that that that start or stop and stop or end those are critical words they're in there for a reason they mean something very specific what they don't simply mean is the start and end of the portion of contents although they do accomplish that but their primary goal is that they define when to start and stop filtering action that's why you have the filtering action defined in conjunction with the start of the stop and just sit to paint a picture for you of how this works as you're decoding the video content you're looking at where you are in the video and comparing where you are to the start indicator start position in a navigation object and there may be multiple navigation objects but you find that you've reached a point where a navigation object applies and that's why i get a find that your current position matches that start position at that point you're triggering that filtering action but well can has a filtering action yes and now can says one way you can so during the playback process it's accessing the navigation object to determine when to start filtering action which filtering action to apply and when to stop that's those three elements that i mention it now to move on to how  we've referred to this as selective retrieval it creates a video map that every single segment of the video including segments that you would always play and the video map is defining multiple pathways through those segments one that may include explicit content one that has implicit content when it has  right there there are not any beyond the boundaries and that that's that's the key thing i want to emphasize here there is a critical the stinks and it's subtle but it's critical they start and stop position do not define the to select out certain content from the mound then there would be anticipation right i would submit that it's hard to even look at it that way because they work so entirely different why why wouldn't on the definitions in the claims we would start the filtering action at the beginning frame and that at the end frame in essence if the filtering action is a skip skipping over that entire segment that's not how abby cassis works because by real part of your argument here it's that the reason it has to be starting the filtering mechanism and stopping the filtering mechanism is because it also defines filtering mechanism which in your pattern could be any number of mechan always be a skip it's the fact that you're defining when to start asking if and when to stop it again this these are this is a separate data structure it looks entirely different than this video their entirely different a video map is a it be a huge number in segments in there and in a real example and it would have links between those segments all it's doing is saying play this pathway through the map gets get segments one to five six seven on and on and on right now instead of other segments that may possibly have objectionable content in it is just telling which ones to go retrieve from the d v d  in contrast with a navigation object you're going to stream the content or read the content to the decoder and it's going to come in in series and you're going to get to a point where you say i need to actively do something what is that something when do i do it and for how long that's all determined by this separate navigation object so the decoder is looking at the navigation object that turman all of those things during the decoding process have a beginning and then when you don't have the structure and beginning and frame have nothing to do with the filtering action nor would they ever have anything to do with the filtering action because you would never filter a segment that's been retrieved for play in other words if you've reached the point of a dead body what it is you're going to filter it based on the selective retrieval process if you reach the point where you're at a beginning frame of you're going to play that entire segment you would never want to filter because the fact that you retrieved it by definition means there's nothing in there that the viewer has that that they don't want to see in contrast with if it ha talking about trying to combine methods in the maybe i'm simple minded but the way i saw what was happening in the morning when they said you've got your navigation structures got three things it's got a starting point and then a filtering action and and so they look at advocacies and they say we see in the map defining starting points and ending points so if they're right about that that's what they see and then they say but there's no the point i think you're in the moment yeah so we don't even have to get to the the issue of combining references because the board never proved that there was a star position in the prior art that's argument the beginning frame of a segment is not a start position because it does not define when to start filtering action now i do agree with you that if you start looking at the elements then angel they knocked off clear play we filed the suit they changed their code slightly to obscure what they were doing they're still doing the same thing what they have done is instead of using multiple navigation objects they've combined it into two separate structures a skip navigation object structure and a mute navigation object structure so what they've done is made the filtering action inherent in the structure if you put all the skip start and stop indicators in a single structure you don't have to explicitly defined skip but by virtue of being the skip and data structure it knows that it's doing a skip and then by virtue of the new if so it still is doing adopted by the board but before the board was or play did not offer any kind constructions whatsoever unclear play in its response and throughout the entire proceeding affirmatively as affirmatively stated it does not appeal they are arguing for a different point construction than what the board adopted in use and the problem is that they i can't imagine a stronger case for a waiver of that because when you  your world we're with you in your claim construct and so long as you understand that we've got this wish the only they were only claim construction issues that they ever advance before the board has nothing to do with the appeal it had to do when they asked for clarification as to whether the start and stop these decisions could be the same value or that they had to identify two different positions and the board actually ended up clarifying that it agreed with them on that and that it when that has and stop that they talk about are nothing but beginning and end points of a piece of content that you're going to filter and that's exactly what i because this disposes as well and the board found it right and there's an in there they're there they're not by the start and stop indicators the start and this is the main issue here what they're trying to do before this court which is something they didn't argue in the board they're trying to add a limitation in to read in the limitation t line this is the navigation object you have a it states that line sixty four a start indicator associated with the first position in the multimedia content presentation and an indicator associated with the second position in the  multimedia content presentation the next limitation is a content descriptor which is not material here and then the third one is the filtering action associated with the start and the end indicators and here here it requires the filtering action to be a skip  to be applied to those to the to the portion of video defined by the start and the stop so it's the filtering action element that says what is to be done to the portion of the audio defined by the start in the stop not the start and the stop values themselves if the start and stop values themselves said what to do for example skip from here to here and you wouldn't have a separate third element for filtering at action it would already be predefined in the start up indicator what they're trying to do is we're trying to add another limitation that's not a macmini for the start and stop positions and say start and stop positions are not just beginning and end frames of a portion of the video they're trying to say that the start and stop positions have to additionally tell you what to do with that with that portion of video but that's wrong because the start and stops don't perform that function the third element the filtering that gets filtered and so they're trying to come up with a distinction without a cassis all right but the distinction that they're arguing was an arguable zero and it's not supported by the claims let's look at the specification let's let's see code that identifies portions of the multimedia content for hours minutes seconds and frame number ok then it goes on to say that code is compared to the positions in the navigation object so now  so the start position is a timecode it's ours minute second frames it tells you when to start this portion of the video now if you look at a figure for example  of which is shown on appendix page one hundred two that's just a few pages before the spec reference i just read so there you see here we have a linear layout of a video we've got a description of five ninety is the navigation object the start is an hour minute second frame identifier ok that's the start this stop is another hour minute and the skip filtering action is this partly separate thing called mute which is labelled number five ninety five on the figure ok so the start and stop are are are indicators of an of a start portion of the video in a stop the start and stop numbers themselves don't tell you what is to be done on that which in the video only the designation of the third element of the navigation object only the designation of the filtering action says what to do with that portion of video again if the start and stop values already told you what to do with with that portion of video there would be no purpose for having a filtering action be a third element so that's where i believe that point construction is being expressed this time cause not it's time codes plus a field reaction they use that's why they have this coldly different element of the claim only for filtering action that tells you what to do with that portion of video described by the start  it defines the filtering action well if you don't you can you point to some place in their brief where you think they're making this argument that they're adding to this that start and stop limitations that start and stop have to define the yes i see it it takes thirty four of their opening brief appeal is that the start and stop positions themselves those information elements of the navigation object have to in addition in addition to telling you when and where the video is that you want to manipulate or what to do wit what i'm saying is that is completely wrong because it's not the start and stop elements that tell you what to do with the portion of video it's the third piece than the filtering action that tells you what to do with the portion of video if the start and stops themselves told you what to do with a portion of the neo it wouldn't be a purpose for having the full three act ok and it's clear that the start and stop positions don't tell you what to do with the portion of video there's all sorts of things that can be done with all there are many types of filtering actions you can skip that you can mute you can do a rethink reframe you can blur part of the image out all sorts of different types of filtering actions can be done on a particular portion of video include defining what the filtering mechanism but that that's not what we're arguing now what it does you can't look at it as just data if you look at it just data it's abstract to the point that it becomes meaningless because yes it could be so it timestamped it's what the decoder understands that it is what was i right to point out over and over again who both your loop or even in your in your reply review you keep saying what's important about time stamps right and what how are they used what do they represent that's the real interest that's not completely the issue because the issue is whether you would put that video map together but the filtering until the end frame of that segment in essence supplying the fuzzball through the entire segment that makes no sense because a segment that you would retrieve in abba cassis is one that you would play by definition it only retrieve segments to play so again we have to look at this and the details we can abstract this that's what the board did they looked at it at too high of a level there can claim construction so broad that it reads out the start stop position what they mean that those key words start stop not start of an end of a beginning of a portion scuse me the beginning and ending of a portion but when you start and when you stop that  that's that's my question why would you combine these references they don't work together they would never work together don't when you apply a video map you only play you only retrieve and play content that the viewers alright with see if the viewer says no nudity you would never retrieve segments that have nudity you would never even get to the point where you need to apply a fusspot there would be no reason ever  why would you ever combine a filter reaction with it it filters or edits without defining filtering actions why would you ever add work and makes no sense