welcome to the south burlington development review board hearing a makeover on the vice chair of the south burlington development review board taking the place of bill miller who is out today who is our chairman item one on the agenda directions emergency evacuation procedures from the conference room if there is an emergency there's two exits there there's two exits here and we'll meet in the parking lot right outside there is a sign up sheet and courage you to sign the sign up sheet so we have a record know that you're here are there any additions deletions or changes in the order of agenda items and none of the comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda as i think you like to talk about that's not on the agenda please let me know if not any announcements  yes if you have a comment about each agenda item you're more than welcome to address each and any agenda item you wish to if there's something that's not on the agenda that you wish to know do you feel any obligation to consider the citizens views absolutely so how do we get our input into these decisions because so far that's not been my experience so there is an opportunity to speak at every time the issues on the agenda in there's also an opportunity to speak in written form every everyone that writes a comment either favor or against or asking questions that is written tomorrow or the city goes to the development review board volunteers and we read them so you can but right of karma as far as i can see you don't really listen to the last meeting i was merely where the place was full and ignored the other question i had is when you're on these gaps which is the best time to make a comment because the last meeting you said oh it doesn't matter because we're only at this level but then when you come at another level it's sort of a done deal those weren't my words  i'm not sure i would entertain a comment any step in the perp in the in the present i mean that you would really be considered it's considered in every step i haven't seen evidence of that but i would like there's some leeway in those land development and regulations and what about the long term commission that they have asking that a lot of the southeast quadrant land not be developed cases that they're asking that develop to to build so close to doors history then we can talk about it speaking speaking hypothetically the and they ask for more  units but speaking hypothetically not just hypothetically the land development regulations for the southeast quadrant call for certain areas to be tried to be kept green and by doing so using what's called transferable development rights you can take good t d r and move it elsewhere and and add density in other places that's a given planning commission the planning commission and the city council accepted this almost i think about twenty years ago and whether you agree with it or not that is that is the city's plan so when the city but some let me just finish so when a developer comes to the city and says i want to do four units in a place the show we have one hundred the city planners are going to say to them gee that's not the city plan we we think you should have density in this location and so yeah that's exactly what happens in some situations and we're not the place to argue that because we're here to to judge whether things fall within the current city plan and just last thing the environment the environmental issues with these rules were you know twenty years ago he say climate change and all kinds of other things are influencing what should be happening down there maybe we should look at those kind of totally agree with you again it's the planning commission they do update all the time what the the the t d r as the transfer of all development rights came in about twenty years ago but things happen have happened there's been many of updates since then so  and those include environmental and view corridors and open space and there's all sorts of things that are in there that we do look at so so it's all of these are these questions are all valid just all sorts of projects around town they want to build the trader joes out of rick what i call winkled ten galvanized metal skin and it's now it's brick and looks like what we wanted it to look like for a city center so there's lots of things as far as citizen comments we take all comments into consideration and you don't see us reacting because we can't make a decision on the spot on certain items but any actionable item that we have purview over are taken into consideration during deliberation and part of the game tonight is not going to turin for the red sox or yankees he's going to be judging balls and strikes and that's what we're going to do as we volunteer at the derby and that's a really good analogy because our power in what we do is a judicial power right so we're not able to legislate the way the planning commission can we just have to take the land development regulations as said as they're written and apply them now some of the regulations sometimes use the word may when you see that that's a sign that we probably have discretion in that area but if they say must or shall we have no discretion roughly to get together and say gee these are the kinds of things that we're having real problems with we but if we do go to our we can't tell them what to do i mean we can suggest things but we can't and for we we don't have equal branches we're not not one over the other thank you thank you don't know if there are no other comments or questions from the public not related to the agenda announcements from the boredom martha if this is a design review application if you could swear you end could you raise your right hand promise to tell the truth under penalty of perjury i do thank you very much also a little bit about the town square association mester sign permits well we would like to replace anybody's driven down doors history you can attest it's kind of a clean looking sign so what we would like to do is update it and move it a little closer to the entrance way because people coming from the mall area tend five of us plus marla that's who you're hearing on the phone thank you charlie i don't number six design review application d r eighteen zero nine of allard square lp who is here for the applicant have that look ten letters and look in a stainless steel form but more rugged because it's going to have a injection mold so it's going to be very durable material the building itself is not it's there's no nothing holding it up on the ground no no it's just been letters attached to the actual elevator tower where an retaining wall was built when the house was built to protect the foundation from a jason broke the goes into show burn day at the time we observed a lot of scour from seasonal floods in those days as there was no water destroyed but out of this project became resulted in south burlington as first storm water district coin but the wall now needs to be repaired and the engineers are proposed to put a sheet pile wall against the existing wall the reason for doing that because their early consideration was to remove the railroad ties but they felt that more carcinogenic material is going to end up in the wake if we tried to do that and their decision was stewing in case the sheet piling is horizontal and three by eight the pressure treated yellow pine and essentially for some people who'll come there again oh no see much difference because the garage to the left of the stairs that you see there and that's pretty much where stairs exists now and they ramp leading towards the lake is pretty much where it is now the only thing we're adding is the sheet pile wall which i described the vertical elements you see there are pressure treated piles in the horizontal sheet sheeting to with so it's what you see in the front curtain are gaby ons of you're familiar with these are rockville wire baskets they have been there thirty seven years and they're an amazing condition no sign of rust at moving on to item eight final plot application s d eighteen twenty seven a gym golf l l c who is here for the applicant david marshall from civil engineering associates are you doing well if you raise your right hand a timely manner and the hundred eighty day period for filing of the mylars expired so we replied i under the final plan application format and back before the board with the same up location as had been approved previously some things actually have been cleaned up between the time that you saw it last and now primarily the conditions of approval for updating plans and cleaning and cleaning  so with regard to the character of the project it is still the same as that been previously reviewed by the board and the court prior to that but the issue regarding the have any questions for the applicant for the comments from the applicant in your package you also see a letter from mr o'leary he's in a budding property owner immediately to the west mr o'leary did come to the hearing last time  to express his interest or concerns with regard to the proximity of the building on globe on law one to his home if this point in time we have offered a number of mitigation measures on his maintain the application as mid and as previously approved by the board but we are working with mr o'leary in regards to certain offsite improvements as a private matter between the parties element regulations there was also a proposed building although again the goal of the project was to preserve as many trees as possible and in order to basically make sure that those trees to retained in that specific locations were identified and executed as far as the future homes themselves the applicant further restricted the location of those homes within those building all the l in to that end so what is being brought up on screen here is the a lot of these civil plans so that's a larger view one that's fine that's actually sheet three i believe and this particular portion the sheet shows the west to lean northwest to leave portion of the project property and what you're seeing in front of you is the hatched area is that run along single lines as being existing vegetation that's to be retained you see the lot numbers one two three and to the up into the left of  home and also on this particular plan it shows between the building on the slope which is primarily the rectangle around the number one you also see proposed plantings between the street and the proposed building so at this point in time what we have proposed with mr leary again it's off property and it did from our previous owning administrators say though that's not part of the purview of the board but nonetheless we've been trying to work with some landscaping improvements on mr leary's property there used to be a bunch of trees on this property but when the previous developer of that parcel constructed it they removed all the trees right up to the property line and and built a retaining wall there so a lot one does it up above mr leary's home and we're looking to again just try to augment the buffer rock there right well let me let me make sure roll on the same wavelength so mark you can see well maybe you can see this mark this is the common property line between the two properties and right along this line there's also a a rock retaining wall that basically puts that that he centrally because of the land form has lost one at a higher elevation than the lower plateau here  this particular retaining wall was built by the previous owner of the previous developer mr o'leary's ownership and it's just a natural land form as far as how you how the land comes from golf course  road just off the sheet here up the hill and then basically there's a sharper change an elevation at this particular point in the basically the the highest point of the land is right at this location here which is that exist it's the existing house on this particular diagram so yeah as i strive i guess questions and concerns really related to what  dave has has brought up you do you could it and then and then some some general questions i understand that this is gone back a very long way so so yeah as  mentioned apparently there used to be trees wooded area on the back of my property which which i acquired in two thousand and nine sorry two thousand and eleven i've been living there since two thousand and nine  and this particular building envelope as you can see from the picture there's there's no buffer there between the building a lot so obviously for you know  development going in that that retaining wall is ten paces from my back deck and then it's another three paces from the rock wall to the building envelope which really doesn't allow there to be a buffer between between that wall and the house there so the only option there with with regard to creating a buffer is doing it on my property which which the developer has offered to do but i find that to be a really sub optimal solution particularly when the building on below the statutory on below for building on that particular plat as or that that plot as outlined could extend another thirty feet or so to the to the southeast corner if you can see that orientation the e just you know below what what is outlined is the building envelope number one it could go basically you see three three proposed or replacement trees there the corner of that house within statutory limits could come down basically right into the the middle point of those those three your asking what you're asking in this letter you're still asking here tonight is twenty foot back on the property line is that correct to to the south east corner correct and i'm unclear as to how that would happen i mean up until this point it's been explained that if the builder submits for that but i think everyone knows as a matter of practicality the builder has been through so much to get this approved or of the landowner not the builder sorry that it's simply impractical to propose a change at this late juncture having been through sixteen years of litigation to say oh yeah i'll just make this one change and run the risk that that could torpedo the whole thing but yeah it's just  yeah it's that and i guess my so that's my specific comment i think my general question is well what point was the lawsuit filed this will be a multi part question i  like to know the background because what doesn't what i don't understand is why having having taken this to the supreme court of vermont apparently that the regulations that the supreme court deemed of a have have not been updated which is you know germane to what i think the person was speaking about we came in you saying you follow these these regulations we work in committee and yet here we are after a supreme court case the town is rebuffed legal fees no update to the to the rules and i think there's there's also i mean this is the this is the tough question i'm just i would really like to see is a solution but but with with regard to the progressive nature that the town takes when planning things like city center i've met with paul connor just out of interest for what a cool project it is and how much planning is going into a property that is not owned by the city  that's a private land i'm just i guess i don't know how to say this without sounding like a complaint saw just say it i just don't understand why at this point the town if there was an express interest on the town part to say we don't want to see a development here because it's going to spoil a natural environment why having failed to to win a victory in the supreme court the town hasn't come back and said ok that didn't go over well this plan which was proffered sixteen years ago in kind of a haphazard manner and proposes to build a road through the the tallest largest stand  of trees anywhere around forget about tree replacement it's like if you walk a lot as i did today it's like here is the standard mature trees that is stately over butler farms and dorset i our community so i will just build a road right there i don't that seem to be possibly mitigated if the town had come back and said ok we lost that fine what we really were after was not you know sort of  statutory tree preservation plan what we're really after is like sensible development and here we sit and i just i don't see how when we have forty two acres here plopping one of eleven houses three paces off my property line with no buffer it's kind of a hard argument i want to ask you to make the argument but it's kind of a hard argument to call that sensible development so there's this if i understand your comment we're not going to well i mean it's heard and i understand where you're coming from i happen to be a neighbor of yours that's getting that's going to get spanked by a future development fairly soon and and again go back to what i said earlier you're in the wrong place to be making this comma this is a the the the intention of the city is to preserve large forested spaces large open spaces not five acres in the middle of a golf course that i mean i'm just telling you what the city's plan is not our plan it's the planning the commission and it's and at the city council planning commission comes up with a plan city council approves and that's the plan asked we did look at moving the awful when you look at that particular plan if you can imagine taking the rectangle and moving it away from tom's house the vege existing vegetation to be retained creates an easterly limitation on ultimately how much how beneficial that particular movement can be when we couple it with moving it to towards the roadway it gets a little bit better where we can gain about eight and a half feet from where it is today intentionally wanted to go down to the south this particular project site is located in the south and north is to the right down the southeast corner so i will point to you the proposed subdivision area right there and this is golf course road this is this is the proposed access road that would come in off of course road into the project site this is in the thirteenth green citizen who is busy with other things it's hard to know at what point you can interject and being a relatively new vermonter everybody's like walk through fifty ak to  fifty and then i hear this isn't the place so if you would kindly explain to me what is the place and i also am asking the board a direct question which is is it under the board's purview to suggest to the planning commission the department of planning to work with the developer to create a plan that is more beneficial to the interests of the community as opposed to a plan that was of conversation takes place this board and didn't have the opportunity to review this project i guess this board ability on this application is actually very very limited just a few criteria based on the for fifth so this is sort of a funny case but in a general sense to answer your question when the board typically provides that sort of general feedback and opinions that's gas if i could just add to that our function as the quasi judicial body we are is to pass judgment on contested cases so this sounds like a good test case we have the jurisdiction there were given and we can we can were required to enforce that has to be done by the planning commission you do not have the authority to do that by the city council and so this concept that i said you know open plans open open force there is and more densely populated areas where development is moved from these open areas to dense areas this being one of them is part and parcel of this plan this this this is what they are after what the city is asking the planning department and the did the d r b to and to make happen it's the city plan so we can change the city plan he the city can the planning commission can change the city plans and so how how does a citizen welcome to talk to marlo offline about how to get on the list of people to go and see the planning commission because that's that's know that sounds to be the opposite of what marlo is saying very much so looking at the draft decision which again is the same as the approved decision under a political standard minor stanny of the reason for this hearing is that there was a deadline for filing so can the applicant simply missed deadline after deadline and continue to push a sixteen year old plan through that almost none of the residents were privy to the sketch review in two thousand and six i mean there's been almost complete turnover in the neighborhood i think my provost is the only abutting neighborhoods that was there that address that issue and the court decision one of the application is a different one in other words so i don't think you answered my question is what i'm saying if the applicant must a deadline which happens from time to time the board in this case in this project as well the board says sorry you m rescinded it back to the board remember remember that back to the book to review so in this actual application that typical situation doesn't apply we were told by the court that you're wrong you have to review it and i thought that was the prior time that that happened yes and but now we have another time that that's happened right so can this just keep happening much as it's an exploration of an approval and i think it's a crucial difference here because if you fail to supply information that's a condition of your approval by a deadline then you don't get that approval where is here you've gotten the approval you have one hundred eighty days in which to record the document you failed to record the document then you've got to go back and start that step again so you're saying that it's the board's understanding that this is a perpetual approval granted by the supreme court of amman so if the applicant fails to record their my lies within one hundred names a second time we would require them as we did here to restart final but we wouldn't require them to go  all the way to status and decisions of the vermont supreme court are perpetual unless stated otherwise so yes thanks l i do not think that that requires me to recuse myself in this case however if the applicant board in the phil board members i'll be ready by phone if you currently has full approvals town an active fifty four hundred nine unit version so we're in for an increase of thirty three units we have a mix of duplex buildings thirty single family lots sixty six single family lots mix of properties and proposed development so plan has really not changed whatsoever since we got a plan approval for you a couple minor additions on the original plan we did not have a street tree plan for nato crest that's been added six to the eat it we had a little bit of landscaping down where we connect prepared to go down through the staff comments ok let's start with number one and one staff recommends the board require the app in to demonstrate the single and to family lot coverage maximums are met for each of the shared lo within each included zoning district as conditional approval a lot of math there but we're ok we'll provide that information the stuff that considers it appears possible or a lot eighteen to thirty four by at least two to three proposed grade of the homes to the minimum required to obtain positive sewer drainage i would disappointed that this item was back it was here doing pulling mary had a long discussion and i thought we agreed that we were fine so essentially we're talking about the lower st i think it's linda mack and linda mack in places is anywhere from three to six feet above existing ground and it's designed like that so that we can get positive sewer flow back through cytomel one pump station so we've talked of public works public works with much rather have the street elevated than have an additional pump station  maintain sole issue comes is that your maximal building height is twenty eight feet in the regs say it is measured from existing ground now we've maintained the last time that the purpose of the regulation is to make sure that someone doesn't come in and purchase a lot and and build a house six feet in the air so a box is neighbor viewer blocks of view across the street now in this case when we design a project everything is based off of the housing height is based  off grade of the road right if you think about having a home worst thing that can happen is to buy a house and have water drain towards it right the very worst thing is that have a driveway slope down so the water comes off the road it runs on your driveway into your house so typically obviously you live inside an old one if you see all the houses that normally we start selling grade we like the garage to be anywhere from two to three feet above selling grade and then depending on the house design it's usually two or three steps into the finished floor if you work backwards you've got finished floor the house you've got twelve inches of wood you know you're flooring and you like to have twelve inches of concrete exposed and then you want to have a positive slope back towards the road so typically it puts the finished grade of the road somewhere between three and four feet above sailing great or not if you look at our plans and look at the grading we've done not only on single families but on the multis you'll see that typically we've set the grade so that the house elevation is three or four feet above the elevation of the road now we've all driven in these developments they're all very consistent when you drive down the street if the street goes up at one percent pretty much the houses fall way up through putting sixty to fill the bill the road is not an economical thing for the developer we only fill the lots and fill the roads if we need to do it to make the utilities work and that's the case here we much rather be able to build a grade and keep our costs down in this case we've designed that road to what we feel is a minimum comfortable grade i houses the city is and i take responsibility for the fact that we built a house a little bit too low that socks and so we're very careful so we have positive drainage issues and then we have the other issue is to make sure that we have basement brands and the other kiss of death for a developer is build houses that have wet basements word spreads like wildfire that you have wept basins there so we have to pay attention to the under drainage and make sure that we have a positive flow from the basement level out to our strong grain features so in this case we think that the grading plans that we provide in the road elevations are sensually the minimum elevation that we're comfortable with what we were recommending what the board should consider to be the pre construction height on the lots and then we'll go twenty eight feet above the pre construction height but they're all going to look the same you know when you drive down the street they're going to match the ones across the along the back so that's how we grade back to the existing ground some of the multis i think they are graded as garden style units in the back expect we only graded the homes on the downhill side of the road the homes on the uphill side are going to be the same the road elevation is the same the driveways are going to go up the house is going to be higher we probably need to grade the inside lots too but you know it's creating a tremendous amount of work and a lot of confusion for everybody on this site now we have all these charts that gives you know pre construction you know it's if you want to just give a condition  d r is require establishment of a new preconstructed grade and we could say that grade is four feet higher than sort of line grade of the road opposite that's all it would take and then when it comes in for approval for a building permit i mean as is now comes in for the building grant we have all these tables all these charts we have to look at you know and not to speak of how much effort is taking us to produce grading plans that we really we don't know what the units are going to be exactly and we know the grading plans are going to change somewhat we don't expect the elevations to change much but the grading plan will look different than what we've produced so it seems like an exercise in futility here what we're trying to do situation where this home is a whole person high higher than the one with an existing grade so it ends up being more than that because it started out lower but it's not going to be right because if you bring this is linda back this is the low side so so basically if you look at this existing grade here i can't read it because too fuzzy from here but you can see this is the road grade then it goes up one to three feet you know to what we think the high point will be across the street we didn't grade these right but so that's what model is looking at she's looking at the grave here and she looking at the grave here and saying gee this house is going to be six feet high but it's not because this house this houses all of the finished grade is going to be at the same elevation we should have braided all the lots and given your pre construction grade for every single  lot you know on the on the project and that's my that's my complaint about it this seems like where we're making this so difficult which is a very easy thing i mean everybody can visualize going down going down the street you know you're there's some concern for that you have about them identifying what the what the built first floor grade is i think that's what i think that's what you're talking about is you could identify if if the street isn't that one hundred that the that the grade of the house would be a hundred four correct in and same thing across the street could they not mark that on there on each lot i know it's a hassle that be way better than grading trying to grade this is a big deal big deal that or the for the for the construction grade is is one hundred two or whatever it is i mean you can it doesn't really matter whether whether it's the first floor level or the or the finished grade so our concern is that these homes to address was based on the standard which talks about the homes being consistent from building to building on the fitting with the things to offer so whatever we need to do to satisfy them and not how the homes on one side of the street being sort of the tall five when they were originally th finished floor elevation or construction grade elevation if that's construction grade elevation should do it right right wastewater import water supply permit and obtain final water and wastewater allocations for each building prior to issuance of the first on permit for the building no issue with that number five staff recommends the board or part of the applicant to confirm that  number six six deals with the extension of cytomel drive as we've stated previously we've been opposed to being required to extend cytomel drive it's our feeling that it was never part of cytomel won it was never suggested to the at any of the residents that it was going to be extended until some future development happened across the street  or further down the street we've been back and forth with staff we have made a proposal to staff that that the developer paid a an additional fee of one thousand dollars per dollars total in fees that would be paid you know i've i've seen the traffic study i understand the impact i don't have a good answer for this yet i have thought about that  window every day and it's clear that if they build in that you know to the to the north was all the panels that that road has to be built and you are right that at least in my m the offer is generous and i think we're going to need that money if that is the so if it were taken out and homes go in or if that area to the north is built well that is going to be necessary hundred forty two thousand won't build that we'll no no no so that would be incumbent on the developers of that the other part still but that's my understanding or proposed to be otherwise fully constructed in phase one of the cytomel two development staff strongly recommends for denying the applicant suggestion of an emergency only connection based on experience within this project and elsewhere in the city that are firm and or go to a construction result in a stronger and they'd like to see the connection operable our intent was always to build a road and we're basically just one gated but obviously we will have an issue either way restart recommends aboard the op meant to update the open space management plan to specify how each open space type is to be maintained in addition to who is responsible for maintenance we agree that should be up to you and we will do that street shall be no parking with the goal or providing a meaningful number of spaces where parking is allowed i guess we're looking for a little bit of clarity on that like like feel look at the single family home section of the twenty six foot wide road and i thought i thought that typically you allowed parking on both sides you know are we saying that we're just going to say that we can park on one side and not the other like some of the side is no parking no parking on the side of the street right but grace because that allows fire apparatus to come to the street without having to do one of these but typically parking signs are not something that we it is typically project fed up with size because it is so difficult to get it changed later shows is that the board's desire that we just mark those streets are they going to park on one side and not on the other i mean we would go parking this side only when i want to sign both sides but i think you'd want to parking on the side of the street that has a sidewalk no well it's just that if i have a single family home yeah and it's a you know it's a twenty six foot wide road so if you think about you know the cars would take up eight public works approve it the fire chief can look at it and then we'll put some parking signs up just a little a little different that's all hot beyond the applicants proper along lots five and six recommends the board require the app went to adjust the grading to remain within the subject property or provide a written agreement with the adjoining property owner allowing the proposed impacts i think we have fourteen fourteen deals with public works comment stuff recommends the board report the op went to work with the director of public works on the street signs and incorporate the remaining comments in the plans including recommendation one as a plan no recommendation one the was that phase one of the phasing plan sure i wrote connection to existing so middle avenue from the posable relaying once that connection is made the road should be open to travel at the connection point we're fine with with that condition and we'll make those changes the airplane to adjust the grading to remain within the subject property or provide a written agreement with the adjoining property owner allowing the proposed impacts prior to closing are not creating on the natives property the linework is a little bit confusing in that there is a seventy five foot right away and then there's a town fifty foot right away and that will go over that was staff but but we're not creating will make that clear so that actually need an alteration of pre construction grade to allow the board to better understand the proposed impacts of this criteria and further recommends the board consider whether to acquire the out plant to show their request graphically on the plans in order to provide a visual way for the board to evaluate the quest seventeen a similar style of recommends board part of the afghan to measure the new pre construction grade for each building as the average of the underlying grade at the base of the structure so this these two comments apply to the units that are on common land bridge and that apply to the units that are on the lots are objection is the same you know we can specify a associated buffering areas no pesticides and herbicides application within wetlands and buffer areas no mauling in wetlands and or their buffers disturbance of wetland vegetation should be limited to remediation activities and no planting of non native species in wetlands or their buffers saved to meet the conditions of the project's individual wetland permit issued on june second two thousand and fifteen by the agency or natural resources we are perfectly fine with that being in the home or documents twenty of the overall open space management plant indicates boulders drilling in the neighborhood park land being d but those are not shown on the landscape plans staff recommends a board core of the applicant to confirm all delineation features are consistent between plans we will make that correction twenty one the apt in is not provided delineation at the side yards of lot thirty four or unit one nine or at the rear of the units a budding the mid sight stormwater pond staff recommends the board consider whether to acquired demarcation at those applicant met with a recreation park and parks committee at their december two thousand and sixteen meeting minutes from that meeting know that the committee was going to provide a list of recommendations to the board meeting took place between two separate sketch pineapple occasion for the project and thus the committee recommendations were never were viewed by the board staff as it is attempting to locate the committee recommendations and will have an update for the board at the hearing i was like yeah going to run myself a note on that one i'm sorry i what has changed on the landscape plans in order of the term and whether these criteria need to be we evaluated so most of the landscape plans didn't change but we always change the revision date on the plans because when we were first to the plants i started having to list each planet's day you can just say the plants at one to thirty five dated such and such the only planet changes we actually added a plan and we added l six which was the street trees along nato chorus because mr nato pointed out to us after the last meeting is hey how come there's no street trees up by my house and say ah you're right there's no street trees so we added that plane and that's been the change  twenty four stuff recommend specifically considering the use of the word guideline in the name of these documents that the board require compliance with these documents as a condition of approval so we're talking about the the residential let us know take us two minutes to fix it so whatever you like the prior to closing the hearing we will do that just we have a the nato property is about ten acres and all drains towards us and so our new road creates you know somewhat of a dam along their propert we have we have to call words that go under the road that drain but in the twenty five year storm as you expect when you see culprits is a water ponds at the inlet of the coal you get a small part of the air well because the culvert is only about five feet away from the nato property lines during the twenty five year storm and actually ponds back a few feet onto the neos property so we're not flooding than a property but we do have a little bit of water that backs up which is what happens actually in every street in the city you know where they have a call where they back up water in a big storm on to the adjacent properties but we'll take a look and see if we can resolve that problem as we go forward to the fall so flooding is a little bit of a strong word but we'll or will look at that that in addition to requiring review by the state addressing ordinator the addressing plan is an important document referenced by internal and external parties after the project is approved and recommends are part of the up and provide a single plan sheet for the purpose of correlating lot numbers and addresses without extraneous information such as contras utilities or law coverages stephanus it is the addresses must be approved prior to final approval so we have all the addresses on the plans but they are busy you know they're hard to find so we'll gladly d c a separate plan that has just a lot number and then nine one one add one more layer  in the end and then move the microphone little bit over so thank you charles so what open up for public comment and what i ask when when you come in just state your name for the record is there anyone there like to speak about this project property and i haven't heard any thing interesting that at all and also according to the regs we should have a right of way that goes on to our property and i haven't heard anything about that  and i was shown the plan for saving milk to it was very different and the units have been increased they may have not been increase in the last meeting but they certainly were increased over time so i think you know fair's fair and say how many units it really was increased so the other thing about the parking i was not on these and i don't understand what you mean by that when i bought my house for inflating the one they also had a plant  really what's happened here just in terms of approvals is that there is an approval in place that that they have they're not exceeding the number of except to actually fill in a spot that was allowed to be developed a unit was called for additional units in that space so that space had an id identify the number of units that were going to go to it but the rest of it has not occurred has not exceeded previous permits so they could go out today and go off the old permit and built up until march twenty one and then they could go up in that northerly section and i don't know what's the max you could have built or a lot because it's multi faith you're going to approve all this density is what i'm saying and i know yours it's already approved so you don't understand it's already done so this is what we're dealing with today is a revision plan that was already approved but that plan was already an increase from the first the original but it's already approved so when you were talking about this doesn't make any sense fars order but i was just taken it so we're talking about the the parking on one side or the it why don't you just make the road wider  park on both sides when you have a narrow road i ride my bike there you can't see and i think some kid's going to come out from behind a car and that's going to be the end and i think it's a safety issue ok so the next thing i want to talk about with relates to what i said in the beginning so the last time we were here there were all kinds of people here with concerns and i was wondering were any of those concerns can situation there was or vire mineral concerns about paving there was wild left cord or that was going to be cut in half there was all the paving in the dreaming and then he said something that's not just hang on while we pull up plan to answer your question so brian are paul would you like to point to where the drainage features order to build the road at a future date that's the proposal that essentially the developers as offered but how far do they want to go all the way to hindenburg or no you have to stay on the property so it's just  to be a development in that area and then there would be a connection there and then they're going to be a whole different application that's my last comment is somebody said that that was a generous offer but it would only pay for seventy five percent of that of how much it was really going to cost wouldn't pay for seventy five percent it would mean wouldn't come close to it so why would you put that burden on the taxpayers that it's not on the taxpayer the new be the developer so they were the and they would pay for it probably won't be that could be these guys it could be a new developer could be someone but in order for that to happen it's likely i can't say for certain but it's likely that that connection would be made at that time that developer would be on the hook not for one hundred percent of  town just wondering if you take into consideration besides the environmental issues the increasing cost for city services and sewage and all the other things that tax you pay our taxes go i don't know but you're paying a whole lot of taxes just as all these other people if you put in say eighty or one hundred forty two houses everyone of them are paying taxes just like you do and that and the way that the city is going more those people are hard to fan the two person families than than three or four or with kids and kids are the the real expense in this eighty percent is school tax and well so the point is the that we're we're an older generation are scar town is getting older by the minute and frankly the the t if we don't build it without increasing the property tax base it's possible your taxes could go up higher oh it would not just possible it would they would go up higher because they did the grid i think a huge piece it should look into the ground let's go see kevin and kevin kids you know i'm saying that if you're property eighty percent of the students eighty percent goes to the school and eighty percent of the housing it doesn't have kids so the point is that it's the that actually it's  just the other way anyway if you find a study i'd love to see it because we've that we've studied this for years and i just a comment about what the other people spoke about the last time they were here asking for the increase the wildlife you please come up moroni and i just have a question because i had gotten in touch with justin rather too at the beginning of summer and then again maybe a month or so ago because at one of the meetings it was suggested that there could be an additional traffic study on cider mill drive there was talk about how fast the traffic isn't and where the bike path comes out in the next on there was a lot of discussion about how dangerous it was not only for speeds but just the different intersections and initially he said it would be done and then when i got back in touch with him again later this summer apparently th going ahead with the traffic study that that we requested i mean me and some of the other neighbors who live inside and we'll do you know anything about that  justin were has as it exists now there seem to be some real serious issues about the safety on what side or mill not so much new development but just right now what can be done to slow the traffic make it safe for people crossing or just being on those who are old it's and i'm not sure where that stands because my second request to just suggested way back when i first started this is so that's what i did no i think you're in the right place he's he's got a he's got an amazingly busy summer still left so my guess is that if he's got time it's going to be a month from now and i don't mind getting in touch with them i just wanted to make sure they're in the right place it had already been done or that there was something else i should be doing you know you're in the right place ok you may need you may need approval in the in the city budget to be able to do if i'm wrong that the hundred forty two thousand from the developer was to be put in for building the road which is the social road extension is that a correct assumption that that out as you're already aware there jay did the independent review and supported the building of the site of mill road extension that the comprehensive map in south burlington has already planned for that extension to that was noted so with all of this information you know it's as we know there's been a one year project of you guys listening to me listening to you hopefully it hasn't been too painful with all of this information going through the process i learned a great deal and i'm glad i got invested in it i'd like to point out though that there is no use of dollars that are being made by our developer and i support that i'm all for people making money and there are certainly millions of dollars being made by south burlington as they collect taxes off of each of the units at full belt out you know so i understand the big picture money is flowing my request to you people as d r b members is to consider there this building of the  you know road extension is only seven hundred thousand dollars by comparison is all these millions are going back and forth if you delay in requiring that road to be built either by the developer as part of the perm process or you know delay it for whatever your reasons are the burden goes on our neighborhood streets to collect their traffic and deliver that traffic over to dorset street which to me just seems high it's just so unfair to have that happen we know cider mill road was designed to be a collector's tree that's the intention of it and we know that winds have brain broom were designed to be neighborhood streets so i encourage you is you have to deliberate and make your decision as to when this road would be built that you go sooner as opposed to later so thank you for can you considering do you mean for the record jack i have a mind set as well so with all the information that you've been given by the different traffic studies and the proposal that you've been given by jay jay jay i guess my question is  is there any way of instituting when the road built because we know at the city just from all the time i've lived here they have yet to really build a road other than market street and that's questionable as to whether they really did it so with them not being able to build streets and you having one hundred forty four hundred forty two thousand hours of seven hundred thousand dollars i guess my question to you would be at that sneaks up double policy do you how do you plan to get the street built other than rely on the next bill or that could come through in forty years from now because this directly impacts the price of my house it directly impacts the quality of life i have in my house and everything else that i pay currently taxes and self reliant and which are substantial so it seems like you're hearing us but there's other deals going on behind the scenes and it seems like if you have more money you're going to get what you want and what they want is to not build the road what the neighborhood seems to want is they want the road built you have the authority to do that to me selling for one hundred forty two thousand dollars which will probably never see on this road being buil say i'm sara dop there are so many concerns i have with all of this and most of it's carved in stone so that we can't do anything about it anyway but i'm really you know worried about that wildlife corridor even though it's been somewhat widened it's it's really going to create a plug scuse me in a north south corridor there i heard some things about water tonight and maybe i'll concentrate on that mostly but one quick question i may have misheard but did i hear the phrase some of the units being built on common land or did i mishear that  build a structure my backyard because that's common land this was long care is taken care of by the property management agreements quite common for these large developments in our earth and yeah ok i know i know there's common land in this and other developments i understood that but i guess i thought i really thought that was you know exterior to the housing what we call the open space that we have lots that we have common land then we have open space i see the open space there are the portions that  building is allowed and the open space changes some places will be allowed to brush rock some places will be able to touch all of the places we might keep mo as a as a player so that that's one thing that the board has  where my logic was going so thank you for for that explanation why her i've i've heard some things about the general flow i know the stormwater ponds but the general flow w less because there's a significant i think you've shown it already is significant wetland environment that runs down through there if feeds upon down my neighbor's house it's a significant wetland when it freezes in the winter it's it's many feet wide anyway if it will if more water is added to that system it will impact my property as well so i understand the jewett's we're concerned and it will impact my property as well i already have a very wet field south of the scotts on the west side and it will be the water will be treated for the volume will increase but it will flow out at a rate no greater than existing conditions so that means you'll have if the faucet is dripping today it will continue to drip but it'll drop all night rather than just off you brush your teeth but ultimately they'll be more water in the system that's what i'm concerned about right and today handles that drip so the idea is that it will continue to handle that drip as long as it comes out of the thing rain if it became a torrent then the state would consider that not meaning that if it comes out at that same rate that they can fit into adequately protected that leads me to my next concern which is a little bit i'm hearing some trivialization of the notion of flooding and interestingly in the week that our friends to the south are experiencing the second of two five hundred year floods within two years in many parts of north carolina where flooding has never heard before we sort of think in south burlington well where we're high enough we don't have major rivers we're not on the sea coast you know we're basically sa but we also have really him impacted and clay based soils in this area of the city so it is not great drainage so when i hear k twenty five or thirty years ago not sure it's so ok twenty five or thirty years from now when i don't think we've got any conception of what major rain events will be like here and in many other places so if we're building new infrastructure i think we always to err on the side of planning for carrying more in the future an area that we really can't predict and i hope the state people are well because we could we could really find ourselves in a bad place because we haven't anticipated we're doing all this jerry rigging of mother nature's systems for taking care of water and plumping all these houses in the middle of  it it's going to come back to bite us someday and we may not be here but our kids will be to deal with it another thing i want to know and this is sort of in a general sense not just about this development but any development in south burlington we sit here in a meeting like this we put many conditions on the developers we increase their costs we put many conditions there for them to meet and they try their best to meet those while they're building in twenty years they've moved on to something else the city doesn't seem to have any staffing particularly assigned to  i'm searching for the word at the moment but monitoring developments in other projects for compliance compliance officers of all sorts you know who signs off on the quality of the building work before occupancy who signs off that in fifteen years yeah that well one buffer really hasn't been mowed by the neighbors the house has changed hands two or three times yeah they read the paperwork but we'd really like to not have those weeds there in our view and you know stuff like that creep happens over time and i'm really concerned not just about this development but our pattern of just adding more and more and more without any provision for checking that these guys have really met your conditions up front and that those conditions and and others in our regulations aren't here to fifteen twenty fifty years down the road when none of us are here we need systems to monitor continuously and make sure there's compliance in all sorts of  cytomel pretty is developed people will be traveling past my house so i just want to put that out we're concerned of the cut through traffic that will be increased we already have a lot of speed on that straightaway and decider mel if it does if we don't extend it an extended all the way to one sixteen we're really inviting that cut through because we're making it much easier so that was our understanding when we bought purchased it that was and you can even see the little little part extending to the north that that was the intention it wasn't intended to mitigate  to so i think that that is a reasonable solution if and when that extension ever gets built i think we need to learn from from what happened from the cider mill that original section that that with is a problem and it really invites speed we don't have anything to mitigate that we have four or five  crossings that really need some bump out it's very difficult to see people crossing out had to stop really on a dime as people are coming off the bike path so when we do extend that when it's developed to the north i would suggest a narrower road because it is a very important connection for wildlife also there so mitigating that in the future would be extremely important and to also put a pitch to developers these developers and even our own cider mill is that we have a lot of open space that's part of the plan and it's always mowed in the middle of summer which is you know discouraging as things are so just about biting for for our pollinators and birds we decided to mow it down to make ugly grass is what i call it it doesn't do any good it helped that open space even though it's just grasslands and has wild flowers really helps to mitigate the buffer zones to the water to the to the wetlands and in it serves no purpose so i guess the developers if you have some open space in if you feel like you didn't get a chance this didn't say what you wanted to say or think about something later please feel free to submit a comment if you're not here i do try to lease and bill if i'm not the chair summarize what the comments are just so we get a full scope of it board they said there was no plan in place and even if there was one put in place now it probably would be many years before it was approved and and development would start so we bought that on with the understanding that that would not be put through because we don't want it to be put we feel it would negatively impact our quality of life on summerfield because of the added traffic that it was never intended to be a no no alleviate the traffic for plan not only traffic and quality of life but we had concerns that dorothy also voiced is the wildlife here we're right there on that corner and we see  board mark