it all right but i would like to call this meeting to order for a regular session of the self and city council on monday november nineteenth two thousand and eight we're going to start with the pledge of allegiance and how best to exit the building or kevin durant thank you michel if we have an emergency tonight and leave me to leave the building please leave by the two doors to the outside here and gather in the parking lot to the south of the building if for whatever reason these two exits are blocked please go out the front back into the lobby and out the walkway can still gather in the parking lot to the south tom hubbard and i will be i'd like to add one thing and your other business we received a request from jessica luisa was the chair of our planning commission and in order to consider having a planning commission member added to the study group for the  prioritization of the plans to be conserved so i wanted to just have a little discussion under other business and i and yes please just a very brief discussion on a couple of questions that have more is comments and questions from the public not related to any of the agenda items someone is here to speak to the council keep going announcements and city manager this report was start with the councilors councilor on election night that took out the power for about seven hours that's what took out the power there was a car crash that one hit a power pole right on that bend but the residents that live right there just raise a serious concern that there are there should be a list of all the accidents over the years at that ben and they're just asking for some attention to look at traffic signage reflectors the neighbors right at the band are also considering getting some sort of barriers in order to protect their how it is a barn pass one happened last week so i'm just wondering i'm blind i have full confidence in our in our road department but just those neighbors are asking for some idea or if we've looked at other safety measures that might help draw attention to the bend so the g m p map showed that took outdoor street all the way i don't remember hearing i was thinking of or really heavy voting night that would be the worse case but it does it would be here and no power to the real problem to highlight not mislead the power weakness but the traffic accidents that keep happening at that bends i don't know what can be done but reflectors or otherwise will look into the other item is the december night sundays the ugly sweater on the road is putting it on i really hope a lot of people at home find an ugly sweater to go for a five k run on sunday december ninth so more information should be second annual right second eight well i don't have anything other than the great news that our four articles the city and the school articles passed since the last regular meeting of the city council and i just see that as a great vote of confidence in this city and in in our planning but also in our future and i'm i'm really really thrilled  see that the voters so so heartily voted yes on those articles and now our city manager thanks meg and just a few things we're pleased to report that market street will reopen at seven am tomorrow morning so and then it was what's a very good leak it leak it as much as you can but we want the public to be aware and make use of the road construction will continue throughout some portion of the early when or on the sides of the road and so you'll still see construction equipment out there but it won't be specifically on the road it will be reopened but it's really just paved yes it was one layer but it's paved i don't know if they'll put another layer on in the spring so back tomorrow staff is meeting just to coordinate the ongoing dialogue with them about the project we extend is also meeting with representatives from allard square for the same reason you know our neighbors in the projects so we will be meeting with them regularly there will be an ad in the paper next thursday and on our social media for recruiting new members for the natural resources committee we're down and i think they're close to not being able to have a quorum we lost a member last week and so council said in the past when that when the danger of not being able to get a quorum surfaces will advertise also you have a public member to be appointed to the t d r committee that will be advertised as well  wednesday on the fifth ashley will be presenting to the natural resources committee on a on this concept around a tri city conservation district and ashley and i will be talking to the williston conservation commission on wednesday of this week just to gauge interest nothing more than that there is no rush on this or urgency  but just to gauge interest and see how we could coordinate and collaborate on management of conserved lands that are kind of in the same area and enhanced that tom and i galley center in sherman farms honoring gretchen morse as their personal year if you know gretchen and i lot of people obviously do she's had a their tire career has been dedicated to helping people and a very worthy recognition for gretchen and then this last thing on the on the other business about i c but that's it it's it from where it's been which of the governing body has been formed in the gun governing documents have been approved to actual implementation we're still hoping for at least partial implementation in july one of twenty nineteen but between now and then there's a lot of work to do the consult has done this not only this component of this process numerous times but also manages has ongoing management responsibility for several consolidated dispatch services so they're very highly qualified but i  will work to get you a full and complete briefing on that at a probably the meeting on the seventeenth or i will get a written briefing to you right away i haven't i haven't spoken about that in a while there hasn't been a lot of question is there any to s and kevin in time is there any discussion if so we're putting a grant to this graphic issues for charging stations at the community center right and he might have you thought about what the tariff would be on the charging station you would charge per what ever is anybody thought about this i don't think there is one i don't think the intention is to have a tariff on it and initially  if you choose i mean if you choose a company that sells a kiosk that has the guns that goes the trev level two charger right there they probably have lots of ways you can program this thing for people to pay so it's charge point the customer has a car if i detect that they waive against it right and then it turns it on and they get charged accordingly so i'm just curious if in every meter around town has got a different tariff structure if you go down to the g e innovation center they have charge point it's like fifty cents an hour for the first for a dollar an hour after that if you go to the lakeview garage it's seventeen cents an hour forever anyway so just just asking a general question because it's important you don't want to alienate your customers if you're going to do it for free  that's one thing but you should never think for free because people take advantage of it so we are paying for the cloud access in order to be able to charge that was my understanding from the grant having to chase yeah yeah so we just haven't talked about that yeah you'll definitely you'll have a lot of options to go get the grant and we can as i saw some of the private enterprises were the last in the line of one of the list of the application already so unfortunately my employer probably won't have any interest but this is all b w money ok but it's i i sense from the council that your preference is to look at a fee schedule there's there should be so even even if it's small there has to people hopefully get the grant question i do have i never park in a spot where there's electrical vehicle charging capacity i don't have an electrical vehicle can anybody park there or will it be limited mr restricted is a car crusher right around the corner if you park here goes i think we've got three of them i think we've got six of them lined up for to go to the community center that's the problem yeah right so we'll bring out won't bring up a plan back to the council on that hopefully we get the grant but regardless we'll bring it back  who actually has been at the district for far longer than i have so she's joining us this year and you are all three familiar with us so just give a quick summary of how this year went in and we could do a q and a set make sense ok a few things so we are continuing to work with the city itself burlington on a contract basis and also maintaining the parks you have in your jurisdiction and that's i think it's going pretty well we've it was a you know we went through the whole growth curve to figure out who does what and how to how to test things out between the city and private contractors in the us and i think that's really come and with ashley parker now managing the open space projects will be coordinating with nick for the services through the park district as well as whether we partner with b y c c or other groups during the summer so it's  this year a big deal for us was the acquisition of the former rivers and marina in burlington and if you look at this map this is the river mouth and you can see the bike  and new park side is something you probably never noticed even if you drove very close to it it's a two and a half acre site directly contiguous with your way island naturally are pretty thrilled about fema grant to do demolition and i've got a couple applications out and so far it's been mostly other people's money to do the project which is which we're also very happy it's a really fascinating site  's going to be converted into to a canoe and kayak drop off which would be very unique in that as far as i can tell it's the only dedicated canoe kayak drop off in this this whole area that will be easily accessible to the public so we're pretty thrilled about this project it's just an artist's rendition one of might look like a lot of upgrades in our parks this year our master park superintendent tim learned as usual doing is his magic in working with dozens of volunteers from student groups corporations universities it's a big part of our model just  fore and after this is been a big year it's two in terms of developing wall cut family natural area and culture yester which over the last three years we've been developing and it's probably about eighty five percent ninety percent complete now many puncheons and stairways and bridges and so forth it's a very challenging terrain so the park will be open to the public this coming spring and tom mention y c c they're big part of our operation as well we have a project pretty much every year than also i c c at some level they're very important partner for us this is the after and buy it but didn't notice it was a str what's really been big for us is an expansion of our education programs and lauren is very much involved with that being our programs director and we've had a sole care program sustainable outdoor leadership and education program that started very small about five years ago and now was a full eight week summer program with waiting lists and just generally speaking we're really finding that there is a huge need not just for up to education but for physical activity for kids generally and that we have kids show up with had no recess recess all day it is the level of physical experience of the schools are providing is is dipping where environmental educator and she has gone into i believe orchard school and is trying to connect with chamberlain's school to do some supplemental environmental education programs mostly around burning that's her in an area of expertise n forest management and in basis the she's i think i described it perfectly but we're finding that you know these programs having them being consistent and available is something even more so just from the after school program but it had snow in it so i felt duty bound to show you some  silver yeah this is just more about the after school thing where it is just really striking to us the need that is out there and there's more resources around after school and we intend on taking full advantage that we're very unique position  very successful program in jericho that we're doing and this ties in this piece here ties into what we're doing with the grant with the basin program we're building on  existing relationships with their member towns schools so we have a base of participation that we want to grow over the next couple years because vision field day as always was just unbelievable hit i don't know how we get good weather every year but we've been lucky so far over three hundred fifty fifth graders attending and it's just a great annual vent gathering for us  that's an area in which we are incrementally growing and being able to build this will income and capacity then of course developing their way coverts as a new part that we we purchased and as always continuing the search for new sources of revenue new ways to support the system and this is our our staff and board this year we hired remy creates also we now have an additional staff member  he's an hourly staff member he has been with us really for the last five years he started as a senior in college he's been a camp counselor he's been in our crew he does natural resource inventories for park acquisition the guy does everything so about half of his time with us he's doing things that bring us additional income so that the organization so that's been a really good investment for a lot of reasons how he came on board i'll just say that i did see the vermont use conservation corps at red rocks this summer on a number of occasions and i see the gullies that they have dug out in order to have the runoff control the runoff right and stop rushing so i i just i saw them in action and it's they looked like a very happy crew to look like it was a really positive experience for them and it certainly benefits us it's works it's a really interesting relationship because our superintendent actually provides some supervision to the crew which kind of provides because our crew is also doing work at the same perkiness we evolved of the last couple years of the you know really good clarity around getting things done park district as well do you know that walking past do we know from which parcel so this is the arch there acreage that is going to be conserved the three hundred fifty acres but i thought that there is some of that was was can was you could very well be the might be some contiguous there's a lot of open large parcels down there just you know if you had had we're aware that it was not as were of another part of the goodrich parcel down there which was part of the mix of the town trying to figure out mitigation around market street not know how that all sugared out but we had some early discussions about that tom reminded me i should talk about the sesame because we're asking you for money  we did our overall budget went up by six point five percent and on average we're asking for a four point eight percent increase from our member towns and so you fiscal years we've had a flood assessment request so i think actually gotten some advice from others that i should have bumped up the assessment last year to make this one a little bit softer but  know in real terms are our operating budget is i think it's highly efficient for the amount of service that we provide so if there's any issues around the increase of be happy to address  it i think you know as i look at national data that our organization probably runs about two hundred fifty thousand dollars less than we should if you look at standards and norms but just be aware that we are asking you for a bit more money this year and have the numbers again because i wasn't sure your last year's assessment was fifty six five ninety two this year is fifty nine or eighty six  increase of four point something overall it's a four point two percent rise for you guys in the short last year's assessment was fifty six thousand five hundred ninety two dollars this year it's fifty nine thousand eighty six and that's a rise of four point two percent or twenty four hundred ninety four dollars what's driving that aspect of your of your increase in the just in terms of all the things are more expensive or whatever just curious it's part of the cost of doing business we do have a new employee that employee one reason we decide to make that investment is because as i was mentioning earlier about half of what he's doing is activities that bring in extra income to the to the organization so the strategy with having him on board is to build up part of the organization which has been an incremental rise so the bad news i'm asking for for more money the good news is that you know over a percentage of that rise is being covered through new program and project revenues which is the direction that we're trying to move into and it's incremental that each year i see that number in terms of income from alternative sources going and this is a paper report outlining kind of the first page give you some background on the regional planning commission you work for the municipalities are chidden a gallon e they make up our board as we're discussing  d we get money from federal and state programs we leverage municipal do is for that money so it's about a fourteen to one return on local investment and you see your representatives with the exception  should be making emory there as the alternate so we think thank you for having chris as a represented he's a very active member of the commission and very helpful and is willing to put some thought into the conversation at appropriate time so i really do appreciate his participation in our board and in various committees that he's helped on on the second page are specific things that we did with the city south burlington in the last fiscal year  so i'm sure a lot of these was look like familiar projects to you exit fourteen but peds scoping working on real time traffic information traffic signal management working on the one sixteen kimball to lead drive plan their wreck kath's scoping willesden road bike i'm not going to read each one of these but happy to take any feedback this is also largely a customer service call so if you have you know feedback for us on how we're doing in providing services to the city be happy to take that or any questions on specific projects that we worked on with you last year or not on the real time traffic information or second bullet are you looking at smarter streetlights that can actually capture congestion in real time and share that that is more of the project in the third bullet this one is actually just capturing what is happening on the highways and communicating it to the trans and i think probably to your public works department also so that they have information and can notify travelers of issues the but the third bullet is really where the signals are being operated and justin is leading that project and really appreciate that he's moving that project forward and you know we worked together i think it was in january to get it tweaked into the state budget to make sure it was in the f one thousand budget because it disappeared for a while right i think because the transit isn't running the project they weren't aware that it was really ready for construction in this fiscal year so it wasn't it disappeared it just they were no where there was already construction there were there was a little gap in communication which we we closed up so we think that's going to happen this year i don't want to st we got a federal grant a few years ago and they're really monitoring traffic flow speed in incidents and it's really just to provide better information for the traffic engineers to use in i guess a lot of it's incident management by being able to alert travelers where there is a situation you know to avoid or take a detour and hopefully it's really just allowing really the transportation professionals have better data to make better decisions but this is an app that somebody deliver their phone and it's trailing no no this is an actual device that somebody has in their car or know about street lights so yeah these are actually kind of  sign into anything it's anybody that has of their bluetooth and signal transmitting it's kind of anonymously saying oh here's a unique bluetooth device traveling or who we don't know who it is there's no information going  into your device or from it it's just kind of try tracking the path of that and you have these receivers planted that listen to bluetooth our friday signals are going by they've been going in this year in and i think there's still to the people at home that's already happening at the airport it's happening at the human it's happening on church street it's all anonymous they don't know who you are it is just your device emitting a signal is used to capture some idea of how much congestion traffic is going through that point at that time so this is nothing new don't call your lawyers and it was really very there was a thank you for that because a very fundamental foundational issue that this is not getting any personal information or where anything to encroach on any privacy issues is really trying to obtain more discrete data and be able to aggregate it and understand what's happening on the transportation system without having you know the tubes across the road or you know like where we are that that was the old way like you put two sets of tubes and try to get a sense of traffic speed in volume or are literally doing speed tests where somebody driving down the road how many seconds as it take to get from here they're so trying to take advantage of technology technology hopefully it can can we find the data on the web real time here or as far as i know is just going into the traffic management unit of the trans right now so let me let me check on that yeah big cities that capture real time in that admitted on an f m channel that can be consumed by g p s unit so i'd love it for more we just on the try to justify that sophistication but i love that we're looking at these technologies yet we're really trying to push technology and signals in our main corridors are twenty five to thirty years old you know a whole different generation of technology is available now so and some of the evaluation we did show that we might be able to get up to like you know thirty to forty percent reductions in delay in that heavily traveled williston road dorset street down to main street in burlington some of those intersections we get some significant are the projects that you have in the capital program the region the regional planning commission has a fairly required transportation improvement program that mirrors the capital program that the state has and again i think a lot of these are familiar projects so things like market street reconstruction are using federal funds the exit fourteen signal upgrades we're just talking about the strong water projects a number of those  figure that's that's the latest that we know about the schedule things will change as they often do there i'd like to know them a bit about the building homes to then seeing affordable housing but the sticking points are meeting meeting at seven hundred yes oh yes we're trying to get seven hundred out of the thirty five hundred to be affordable yes so obviously our affordable housing partners know that better than i do in champaign housing trust and housing vermont but i think if you were to ask him you know they would kind of come back to resources because the permanently affordable units are all subsidized and so you know those are been subsidized was mostly federal money in the last year or so that the legislature passed a thirty five million dollars housing bond which are not into thirty seven million i think where they actually put it out and so that's that's been helpful but and cheney county is certainly getting a good share of that but there's still so much more demand than there is resources would first ask which asked actually the original request to the state was to for seventy million dollars bond get halfway there and so that i think that will be the primary request when we had the press conference a few weeks ago that was really the process other things i think that the municipalities are working on having affordable housing committee housing trust fund looking at inclusionary zoning so those are all things that could help as  well sorry i didn't tell you anything you didn't already know but no magic bullets or yeah on those next couple pages are a variety of regional activities that we've been engaged with last year we updated our regional eco's plan including focus areas on the economy transportation and energy supporting clean water programs and lots of different ways  public health issues he talked about dispatch a little bit earlier emergency management so again i'm not going to zero in on any one of those unless there's a question that you'd like to know more about  hear too we might ask him questions i i sat in on one that you couldn't attend and i thought it was very interesting to him i made also bring up i'm going michael to be there next week this was originally scheduled for this when something really think somebody noticed that it came the day before thanksgiving and that vantage point that we don't often get seeing how south pearlington goals you know match the goals of our regional partners i think that would be interesting for us to hear some of what your experience been i think that's the whole point of this organization is that we are going to align with the region in what we want and what the region needs and i think you you spoke with just there with the champ i forget the exact but housing initiative and the difficulties with the affordable housing because in the time that i've spent talking with folks building homes together i mean folks move out of self burlington because of the lack of for ability and so that's a very real issue not just for so burlington but for all are areas when it transfers out of the region so that we get traffic coming in from the north you see it lined up at the existence they come in from georgia and fairfax and therefore double homes up there and and that contributes to traffic on our streets as well coming up from ferris bergen heinsberg in monkton and stark spur on all those places where they're dealing with it you've certainly read about hines birds issues with development as well in the in the city center so we can't just operate in a silo and i think where we've got the right mix in that i think c c r p c watches concerned is that you don't just build atlanta eight lane highways to solve some of the traffic congestion problems that might have been done in the fifty's sixty's and seventy's and we have loosened where it makes sense like the third lane which was always an impediment in front of a share now doubletree hotel there in the staples plaza where it's helped people get out onto the highway but these other add assets that are coming online with the bluetooth and with the traffic monitoring in th the smart transportation signals is really a rather exciting time for south burlington as well as the region because i see the traffic backed up over the bridge at exit fourteen at noon time of all times the date backs up even worse at five six o'clock at night and to reduce those congestions i think speaks to an improvement in the quality of life for a lot of people that choose to live in self bryant and for that reason for the access to burlington employment centers around the county so it's a it's a juggling act and to mention patch and road in lime kiln i mean there are a lot of pinch points in our city so you know we have the need to preserve our open space and sell burlington and not have you know developments come rambling out there and just go plant and drain what we've talked about here in the interim zoning the resources and sustainability potentially of some of things extending lines of water and sewer out there that just doesn't make sense but i think we've done a good job with the various committees around here also for bringing them into the inner city and taking a look at the infill and i see williston just going to town at maple tree place i mean they're just finished crossing it's the bust of stored up all their chits for building homes and if they can't put the building homes together three thousand units right there in that one property i guess i'm not very good at counting because it sure looks like they're putting up about a thousand over the course of the past six months still sticking with the growth management program i know but they've you know they've done it by being you know conservative over the last ten years and now suddenly bloom and boom but it makes sense again there because it's at the junction of two major routes and it doesn't require cars and it's really exciting to me to see that for these people to be able to get to their services whether it's a cleaner a grocery store and rec passive are all right there so there's certainly plenty of opportunities and the corners if you will of chipping county we have a number of corners i'm surprised so burlington doesn't have a corner and i think i suggested one for up here where you come up with some new street names for your city center and stuff corner seem to be a good vermont thing if cops corner severance corner and you know five corners and all that stuff it's sort of instant heritage and legitimacy where maybe there wasn't any before so it is that juggling act of having density near the core near these major routes near the trip transportation centers and then preserving what's always been beautiful about vermont itself burlington as well away from those transportation corridors and away from you know areas that don't need that development you know and we're still also trying to attract people because right now all the workers are coming in or what is fifty percent of our workers are coming in from out of shipping county in a given day and it's  find some more permanent subsidies and and find ways to reduce the traffic loads like for all it's garish miss phinney crossing the it is right there where you don't need to necessarily drive to every service that you need and hopefully have employers right in that area so you can even walk to work and be more of a livable city there are many examples around it struggles with the same issue with their interim zoning where they were trying to get less residential in their town and more in the center focused on the improvements and i do think we're running far away from the transportation glut that we had where everybody in the car and drive around two dollars a gallon gas and i think that they would come more we're going to be a little smarter about that i think one of the things we can we worry about is what the self driving cars and who has done to increase that traffic flow in demand which is counterintuitive if you're like well i don't own a car everything must be but no you have this car making multiple trips that it wasn't doing before and so in some intended ways were discovering things that that's nature that will be blossoming more over the next ten years and really have to be grappled with but that i think still needs to be a challenge that we need to contend with is that transportation issue in the entire county so that's one i'm keeping my own i'm looking for guidance from you on the building homes together and your initiative with the interim zoning i would love to hear you know what i can speak to for that for you folks and similarly with the airport if they haven't got a two thousand and forty plan this point because we're darn near twenty twenty and you know i keep hearing about is the twenty thirty vision so i would love to hear more from you for direction on that what i would like to have moved forward is the airport drive straight through to the airport parkway and demand a traffic on white street is when we have an elementary school there is i think a real problem we have many near m fatalities or electric poles being taken out but many many near near misses and i see that as a real need for the city that's i think  airports master planning you know they're updating that twenty thirty plan i expect this will be a significant priority for that you know and i think the one of the questions will be can we get f a a money to help do that or will all be on transportation city to take the lead those are city streets and certainly you've seen from what it's cost to put in the streets kate for market street that these projects aren't in consequential when it does come to money certainly maybe not five million dollars because it may not have the same level of streetscape as you're doing for city center but it needs to have curbs it needs to have storm water it leaves they have all that and if you look at the terrain that it skirts one of the airport fence there there's a lot of deep ravines about two or three of them and into the e p a the environmental assessments and that can squelch things right right there so it's difficult i sort of looked at your card circle stormwater enough a question that i'm like you took the homes down on the card circle so why did you think storm water on the card circle you might just want to let it go back to grass or rather than pavement but i believe that it serves a purpose for working with the roadway right think the the way it snakes past the chamberlain school wouldn't necessarily i don't know how you resolve that unless you're going through kirby kirby edges or something and increasing the traffic on megan's idea in mind you can do one streets that would prevent right the kind of through traffic that we've heard from the neighborhood we've we've done the state studies where you polled people and they said we'd really like our neighborhood to be back to being a neighborhood and not being you know cut through by three or four major thoroughfares and we're redoing that intersection where we have the national guard road which is the name of the cell function junction yeah should also make sure you're aware i think just within the last few days and hopefully you both saw the requests that went out to all of our municipalities asking what projects they'd be interested in us looking at are you providing some funding for for  twenty and so we set it up this time of year just as you're developing your budgets for f y twenty if you are asking for some additional study that requires a match you can know about that in advance and think about that and a budget that in as well and of course  as probably in advance of that will definitely advance of that as i mentioned last week just kind of remind you that we are fully intending to follow through on the commitment i made last week to help you with anything we can do for interim sounding analysis you know when by law drafting whatever we can do to help move that along with you and your staff and your committees so that that  the time i first got on the planning commission there are some things that we you have and you try and preserve but at the same time there incremental steps it may not be a perfect one but it get you closer to the goal and as you know in politics and you know group committee work oftentimes compromise is the key the beginning to be the end of a lot of these issues and it doesn't always turn out the way you want to write doesn't always turn out the way you want to laugh but you do come to a considered happy medium so that t v hours were put in place just for a c q you guys are going to have to evaluate whether that would work better if you expanded it to all four of the districts of the city i think you know that's certainly well worth art capital improvement plan but important work and martha there with all the numbers  see charges sure a lot of good we have you come up we had a question from earlier from the our consent agenda of those the middle for the grant for the electric charging vehicle  it's about a a dollar something ok yeah and that it's about twelve dollars to fill up a large tank which would be at a higher higher away they came from but they might just want to top off right by which case they may be asked want to be asked to move their cars and depending on the demand for the right so there are four left over customers most customers are going to be there more than a couple hours you know  energy they're kind of expensive in the ones that are sort of subsidized by burlington at lakeview garage and some other locations like in front of be d b e d has two outside in their little round parking lot right adjacent to the innovation center parking lot and those are all seventeen cents a kilowatt hour for the first four hours then you might pay more afterwards because then they just think you're parking too you know so it's kind of interesting to know like it if you like going to charge point dot com and you do some charging stations make me mad because they're too expensive for me to use so it forces me to go back to gasoline right because i don't want to pay that i don't want to pay three times the rate you know whatever it is that i'm used to paying whereas other ones are very reasonable so those so it is a charge point system is so there's that yeah we're being record that we're recommending and is ok and i'm i'm not sure who would set the fees but if we have the years and then they recently changed it now it's going to cost prohibitive you know for it's like if you have a car that has a big capacity and you you know and you want to charge the whole thing up that it's like so if you wanted if you wanted ten cents worth of gas and gasoline but they're going to make you a pup a dollar in you know that that's the break point so i'm thank you very much you're welcome back to our discussion of capital improvement plan rate so that it doesn't fluctuate high from year to year their first year of the couple implement program once approved will be incorporated into the budget in this case would be there for twenty will be incorporated into the up to a twenty budget process the public hearing for this yappy to be a one for december seventeenth at seven thirty p of what was approved for f y twenty eighteen and what has been then differently this year is if you looked under this open space projects last year or  martha so this slide is the one they're literally will transfer into the budget should the projects be approved the biggest increase in the general fund this year because it was basically flat is the taking of the money from the seven fifty in the city center reserve fund to bring it back up to eight hundred sixty so that alone was one hundred ten thousand dollar increase that we didn't have from last year but specific to the projects for this year where we're on track for increasing the paving budget by the twenty five thousand each year so we're we've kept that in there it was six hundred last year up to six twenty five there for the fleet replacement for justin that's one of the large dump trucks and one of the smaller pickup trucks those two items at one ninety five they're the garage expansion is for another bay it's a two year project he originally had eighty thousand in there we've how many they have like i think the plan tim the master plan for that is for is four more all together so this would this would be two of those they're going to extend the end of the building now or they're go it's some of it's going to be widened keep in mind that the buildings eventually it j c park down so a couple of these base will become the parks operation out of that building rather than where they're functioning now out of the to the park building at j c park and that's that's what this expansion is going to be to accommodate the parks division the just will be working with those spokes on to remove the infected ash bore that dash trees this is just the beginning of this project i think he saw the enormity of what that cost is really going to be to the city over the next coming years and we have confirmation that we have trees infected now it's we we don't have one now but it's not a matter of whether we're going to get it in then it's going to go and right yeah but we don't have any now we do now and it takes a while for the trees to succumb this is this is part of the proactive approach to being ready for it when it happens and getting other new trees planted so that is just not dollars all together so with highway with fire and ambulance we've got some apparatus floor drains they're going to be replaced for equipment and station  one we've got some c o meters a calibration station and duty coats that will all be replaced this part of the equipment mine for sixty four thousand the communication tower that's the principal interest on the loan that we have for the radios project and the e m s equipment is for a cardiac monitor defibrillator tom so i'm looking at department overview by expenditure page and i see fire station two s fifty nine thousand and twenty one and five hundred thousand and twenty nine over the past two or three months some various people residents asked me about the plans to either add up when you were talking about a bay i thought it was the fire station two are we have we deputy chief acting chief francis on board i don't know how familiar he is with the set but we fully evaluated the condition of fire station one fire in the factoring of our sept that process has been thorough of late and could you speak to maybe what fire station two is needing on the long term the renovation for fire station two will begin this year and there's one hundred sixteen thousand dollars and fire impact fees set for that project that's the only thing in the impact for your nance and allows those species to be used for so we're just at the point where spring clearing of the building will be done this year thousand that's in the out years is whether or not the one sixteen completes the project or not evidently because of the living quarters there has to have a back entrance of it too so that would be upgrades to station one i hope not the floor drains are going to be looking to be replaced where the apparatus is the floor drains underneath i think that's about a twelve thousand dollars project this the station itself is in good shape there are some apparatus placeholders in the budget for different vehicles as the years we've done we've done a track system a little bit of repair on the roof yeah we just in the past decade i believe we just completed a an addition to fire station one where the ambulance base are yes yeah and  yeah but i mean the the station itself is in excellent condition it's well maintained we need to communicate that to the community because their concerns residents say that we've been neglecting our fire stations but i'm hearing that's not the case and that they're in good shape and everybody's been don't think this nation one station two needs a little bit of work i think the ramp you know where the trucks come out the lip needs to be repaired there and the second floor renovation is too so yeah i think station two is looking a little tired but i think with the renovations that are planned it will bring the building up to where it should be station one is in good shape very good shape  police department eighty thousand right there that's that's financing the debt service on the new police station the vehicle replacement right now there's four cruisers replaced at that amount of money that's a replacement and fit up your question was a good one tom so you can see how expensive it is to fit up a new cruiser the light bar itself the chief told me this morning it's four grand and that includes the  able to change the traffic lights as they drive and that alone is over a thousand dollars so it's about ten thousand dollars a little over ten thousand dollars to fit a police cruiser that's getting the car painting replacing that's more than we've had in the past him where we've been typically at three and i think once we get into the meetings with all the other departments we look at the general fund as a whole will decide whether or not we recommend keeping the fourth vehicle it might give us a head a little bit but it may not be absolutely required that we do that this year so i think that's something that we have to look at recreation and parks overlook park is tired of kicking back of the asians imputes electronics and police as well yes so the police department there their communications and computers is so different from the rest of the city system that we have a contract that man their operation there some of this is the replacement of of the desktop computers that they have that's about twenty thousand of that number the rest of that is requirements that we have to meet from the state to  keep the all the all the software licenses the fire walls that need to be in place the interaction with the state system the chief could go into quite a list with you but it's it's significant and that's about the cost we've been paying over the last few years for i t for a police department pretty significant that's more than the rest of the city c just to put it improves back to so i was saying overlook park needs a little bit of an overhaul the the paving there is very torn up just then would like to do a little bit redesign as he does some of the  work the estimate that we've received is about eighty grand for that so we're looking to take care of that during fiscal year twenty so that project is in there at this time the vet memorial park upgrades the fifteen thousand is for additional security lighting around the park and some additional security lighting up by the band show one of the one of the things that we realized especially as we get into the the later hours up there with things like sober night out is that the lighting is without headlights or something like that on it it's a bit dangerous getting around in a park to get back to a vehicle so this is to provide some additional lighting in the park that could be timed and could be on seasonally but done in a way that is most efficient to dock park amenities is as mainly a placeholder for new dock park and some of the amenities for a new book dog park once you get a recommendation from the dog park committee so that's a placeholder in there right now the i t budget is that's al's budget for new hardware new servers for the for the city the city system which in compass is public works city hall and both fire stations city center again the  be in its last year or have been completed last year i believe the pension and my long term with that in part of the bond payment long unfunded finding improvements in city center is because of the funding sources so this chart out why a ten year it's sort of a ten year snapshot at where the money's coming from and what it's going towards so so whether it's constructing projects finding the reserve which means that it's coming from property taxes and has an impact on property taxes or financing making the debt service making debt payments so green is making debt payments and so a portion of that you can see comes from the city center c a p reserve fund a portion of that comes from public facility impact fees and a portion of that comes from there which in this case is undefined but there will reserve funds obviously would fund would find projects like the library city hall senior center and then reserve funding is funding the reserves all of that is coming from the general fund the asli and then constructing projects is a variety has probably the most diverse diverse finds the most diverse types of things  i mean is funded by the most diverse sources so this is a list of the projects and i apologize that there are so it's so small as in years past i'm just going to run through the projects and give you a sense of what their status is and let you know what's changed since last year so obviously market street is in construction as is the city center park the city center  small amount of funds for next year just to finish up and close out the contractors there's a one year period at which point the contract is closed out and then there's an additional expenditure in f y twenty two in f y twenty three that's to allow for the potential boardwalk connection between garden street and market street and the park to be constructed with tip district financings should the city choose to do so it is also possible that that would be funded through the through the private sector the market is under construction and would be completed in f y twenty  would still need to go to voters for tips to start proceeds to complete that project and is scheduled to be completed in f y twenty two garden street is in design it's in two segments shown in two segments on this  in this year in order to allow that the dorset street connection which includes utilities as well as a potential sidewalk on the south side of garden street between healthy living and trader joe's would be constructed in pedestrian bicycle access at i eighty nine exit fourteen that is something that's a project that we are currently in scoping for with p c we have applied for grant funding there is a potential  that we would begin design in advance of to district financing next year in order to position ourselves better for for a grant in the following years but that's something that we would discuss with you at some future date but it's there as a placeholder and the performing arts facility is a new project so that's a project that  in the c i p in the past it's something that's been discussed with the city council previously the organization that was developing a feasibility study the south burlington city center for the arts has completed that study and  and we would like to discuss that with you at a future meeting so there are sort of a placeholder amount of money in f y twenty to further develop scoping for that project and and then  the potential to have it built in twenty one in twenty two i'm sorry it is not currently i'm sorry it's not i'm sorry twenty two and twenty three it is not currently tiff eligible it's probably the type of project that would be a good fit for the tiff district however as a funding source i'm not sure that the revenues needed to line up really well with the tip district so that's something that we would like to discuss with you come back and then the city center there's the city center park i already discussed but the urban park festival streets city center parking garage and the stormwater wetland mitigation are currently similar projects in that they don't really have a site they really rely on the partnership with the private sector in order to move those projects forward and since we do not have any type of development agreement for those projects at this time  they're in there more in case there is an opportunity in the following years and then streetscape and i have to point out that this is only represents a portion of the project that we have a grant for which is the south side of wells to road it does not include any street scaping on the north side which well it's in the tip district because we don't have the grant funding for that other fifty percent were not pursuing it at this as a component of the downtown based on recent discussions this project is being recommended to move into the administrative portion of the capital prevent program this represents approximately seven million dollars investment it is also here as a placeholder pending further discussions but it includes additional scoping monies next year or so approximately one hundred thousand for construction in twenty one if i twenty one so summer of twenty i think that this just gives you an overview of this reiterate the first slide the snapshot slide that we showed and goes through all of the different funding sources for the entire program of projects and then each individual sheep provides additional  fee modulator through a reserve fund we're not sure that that we haven't gotten that far into it but so at this time it's being shown as part of the reserve fund but then there would need to be an increase in  contribution to the reserve fund if it's to be used december seventeenth at seven thirty is what you write that we duly warry a public hearing for the regular council meeting on december seventeenth two thousand and eighteen at eight thirty pm for public comment eight thirty pm is what the note from our actuary to the january meeting so acceptable so the general fund that night we'd be looking for approval for whatever you feel should stay in fiscal year twenty to become part of fiscal year twenty budget and there could be some changes before you even see that next so right now it sets at one hundred fifty thousand dollars and we'll see where we end up through the budget process all our department are aware of what the general what the general fund might be capable of between a tax increase and growth in the grand less so we'll continue to watch where we're meeting with me in that years now on the operations budget we'll see where it goes i didn't sleep question for tom do you have any indication what health care increases are going to be this year or next year we're figuring about six percent six percent you're figuring out ok are fortunate to be filmed by channel seventeen at every one of our meetings so iran is a really really does a great job for the record  c c t v center for media and democracy and we operate channel seventeen ten meeting television of which dan logan is our channel coordinator and he makes all the programming happen which is he's like a  magician so we're here today to give you our regular update i think you have had a chance to read that over were happy to answer any particular questions and also you get a oh i sin it all right well let me give you the update and or so the channel seventeen channels of a teen i think you all know is funded by cable subscriber dollars and we have expected for years that cable revenue would start planning for this and in two thousand and six to post your meetings online and store them on a website in servers etc we came to you to ask amount of coverage that you got as a community and the votes of the representatives of the trustees based on the one thousand nine hundred subscriber numbers and the result of that was that burlington get six meetings that they're covered they also pay for additional coverage south burlington gets five and the other communities get three so in two thousand and six when we came to you to ask for financial support to go online to diversify on the internet we asked you for a contribution based on that allocation that break down and then in a couple years ago we came back and we said we would like your support so we could go live with your meetings and  the memo which i will research and it shows you that your life meetings while there may not always be hundreds of people watching every meeting when you have an important one you have hundreds of people watching and probably on average you have between forty and seventy people at any regular meeting so the value of channel seventeen as we know is very situational i mean it's an ongoing record the doors of city hall are open there's something of a queue to porton the community can tune right into it immediately so we've been able to provide live coverage i think intermittently in rolling tin but we're trying to get it as reliable as possible so in january of this year comcast accountants reclassified some of their income it was a one time thing but it resulted in a fifty thousand dollar decrease in revenue to channel seventeen so our request which again is outlined in this memo is to ask each of the member municipalities if you would double the amount of revenue that you provide so currently south burlington i think is providing something in the order of ten thousand dollars a year and we are requesting that you increase that allocation to twenty and it if each of the member municipalities do this we will be able to make up this fifty thousand dollars gap there is always going to be a slow erosion of cable revenue that's just happening that's so it is not unlikely that we will return to you in a future year we may ask you first steady increase which is what the trustees of advocated for and i think that frankly ultimately the municipalities will be asked to bear more and more of the burden of the production as the kimble revenue declines i think that is true and i think that's a question for you to take up how valuable you've believe this service to be but for today what we're laying out is a way to address this one time it's not a one time request but it's a one time adjustment in the revenue that's fairly significant and affects our ability to continue to provide service at the level that we have so that's the very short story and there's other background that we're happy to provide and if you want to have time to consider the memo and have us come back and ask questions we're also happy to do that that's no problem process yes you have my full support i think it's worth the extra ten thousand dollars you all open the doors to city hall as you said and i'm all about transparency i don't think anything is more transparent than being live webcast and right now i would love for plenty of commissions to start being is your contribution by comcast like this year projected versus the previous year fifty thousand dollars less rate than what it was their contribution last year due so they provide  centrally five percent for operating and one and a half percent for capital that is split by channel seventeen v kammen r e t m so we split that three ways so that number's probably around six hundred fifty thousand and six fifty six fifty ok yep and then there's a capital allocation and there's also brawling to telecoms allocation so all together the budgets in the order of seven hundred seven fifty comcast to you is six fifty roughly the whole group right or  it just to you or is it a little you know to us just to you and that's based in that money so was it state or federal legislation that tied it to the number of cable t v subscribers is the public utility commission may require up to five percent for operating and for and an additional amount for capital for p e n g public educational and government channels and they have to set aside channels to so the public utility commission in eighty four said we're going to take even before that was passed for months said you need to do this cable companies then that federal law was passed that sort of authorize them so that money is collected from cable subscriber bills all over the state and funds twenty five centers that operate about seventy five channels as a separate charge on a bill yet it's six and a half percent on every bill ok and the cable operators comp cast bt is not the case but comcast isn't thrilled about that charge because it makes it harder for them to compete with satellite and other services so they say yeah so that they've never been served big fans of this and dumb i also i outlined in the memo and can explain we're currently in litigation with comcast because the the state told them to fund continue to fund us but also to put our channels on the electronic program guide as part of their recent renewal and comcast did not want to be told that they had to put public access channels on their electronic program guides they went to federal court and the reason you might say that seems so strange why would they fight that and it's because essentially it's the fight for the set top box they don't want to be told what to do with their set top box which is where all the data about all our usage cable content is collected and that information is then purchased and sold to other subsidiaries of comcast packaged and used his data tracking right so this set top box is sacred space for them and for the state to say you have to put these access channels on your program guide and pay three million dollars to retrofit your your infrastructure to do so they weren't having it so they're in federal court so we don't actually have a current contract with them and they are the state doesn't have a current contract with them so that's part of what we're dealing with with comcast but they're not opposed the funding funding is not an issue it's these is these different kinds of reclassification that that their accountants did you know which underfunded you by fifty thousand dollars did that have to go through the p c at all it didn't and the p c wasn't aware that happened so we brought it to their attention ok and so who's going to audit comcast at this accounting changes they've made is actually a legal thing to do we're hoping the p u c will do that ok because the as cable t v provider they are utility regulated by the vermont state public still does commission  rates not their rates right but other aspects right but the six and a half percent is regulated right path and is that on any comcast bill that sent any subscriber regardless of whether they get phone or internet or cable t v or just if they get cable t v channels it's based on the definition of gross revenue related to cable television only so what happens when somebody is a comcast internet customer and they get their channels from v or from sling or from any of those other technologies that are providing access to some local programming as well as the same cable programming that comcast provides you you get no revenue for that you know because it's not regular it's it's both congress and the f c c have passed provisions that make that impossible even though they use the same public rights of way so yes i know what you're thinking i know what everyone's thinking but we don't have access to that revenue in vermont we had it for one year and then it was deemed illegal to tax internet so frustrating and we've been thinking about this since one nine hundred ninety so ten percent so then they went to seventy five channels we have three of them now there are hundreds of channels on hundred right and they don't actually even they don't even have channel set aside anymore they serve up the content but we are still broadcasting in standard definition on our jails because that has not been a lot of to us yet they don't is the case across the country with other other companies that have to provide local access well no ones no cable company is except burlington telecom is ever happy about public access i mean it's a true statement it's it makes it hard for them to compete and it makes it drives the cost up from their perspective and they don't see that local programming is a significant value to their viewers so the answer is yes it's an uphill battle and comcast has agreed for example to put peg access channels on programming guides through side agreements so they do do it but they're not told to and that's the point that they're arguing and the other thing i would just say is that as a municipality you have the option of of comcast coming in presenting to you on an annual basis so if you actually want to talk to them they would it's in their contract their lay would come well they would they they're actually very friendly there was very friendly they're very but they are they are very friendly and they're you know they they find themselves in a very competitive business and that's and it's difficult it's difficult to balance the public interest with the commercial interest and that's the line that we walk and obviously we're on the side of the public interest your public rights of way essentially are what we're used cable companies are using and the public access is a payback for the use of the public r technologically feasible for you to be able to feed a signaled edition direct t v they're not regulated in the same way nobody is a piece of is it is a technologically feasible to do that yes you could for a do you have to add infrastructure do that or is it ready to go today you would have to get you would have to make a deal with the satellite companies there aren't provisions like public access on satellite because it is a national service right but do you have the infrastructure to support that if if if you were if you could broadcast to directv and dish over the internet could they pick it up and rebroadcast it it would take some it's easier said than done ok it's not impossible to do like free speech t v as a channel that uses a satellite services and you can take it down if you if you subscribe to satellite services so we could arrange that but it wouldn't probably be our highest and best use because of who we serve in this community are not don't tend to be satellite people positioning ourselves on the internet is actually been where we've tried to focus we question is how to get the funding campaign in the style of n p r to try to round out our funding as we see cable cutting cord cutting taking away a little bit by a little bit and then obviously a little bit steeper drop this year in the fifty k we've talked about upping our our fund raising campaign so that in that i mean that's not an immediate thing that's kind of a plan that would offset the slow cord cutting trickle down of o of our funding the fifty thousand is why we're here so i think in terms of asking them for funding no but we are kind of going approaching the fund raising aspect of it the way that they do because at so like a bunch of treatments for like millions hundreds of millions of dollars yeah yeah you know we i think partnerships are always on the table for us to think about we haven't thought about working with them because we do long form and they don't like we're this funny hybrid media outfit that produces thirteen hundred hours of programming a year i mean it's really quite significant what we do so are always opportunities and that's a good idea it's a good reminder guys you've got the p c it's a great time to ask for five bucks ackley yeah so expanding our fund raising capacity and you know when what we need servers to do is vast we're more on the order of the police department then i mean so our technological infrastructure is very demanding on top of these revenue pressure so to add to that the archiving for us is not just the storage space and the technical side of it we have beta disks we have v h s that are all in the process of being digitized so we have a part time staff member working on that so not only are we increasingly producing content like hours and hours and hours every day we're also trying to go through our backlog and digitize all that so that securely archive digitally just like everything else we have  great grandkids can watch these videos well yeah i mean we have thirty five thousand hours of footage in our archives and that doesn't include all the meetings that doesn't because we recycled those meetings we brought those v h s tapes back here we didn't even keep those so we have you know it's it's it as you know and i don't have to convince you of that in general seventeen is a community institution and it's a treasure and i think we need to determine together how we're going to support this going forward because the environment is changing and we are we want to work in partnership with folks like the p t and our municipal members who are really you are close partners this is why we do this together this fear that this will come cass cable t v subscriptions are going to continue to fall as five g grows because between internet tablet or whatever the it is right or that's about all that's left because the model with this is such a fascinating historic history lesson right there so when you have mountains you don't get t v rights so then you have cable t v needed to get past not having it having mountains you can't get a signal well then the internet develop and so you have a wired every house that sometime is the same and wire right it's the that's the irony of it's the same wire yeah right but it's got a lot more bandwidth on it and then you have five g which is going to flood her body with more wireless signal capacity than we've ever known right and then all the sudden the the mountain broadcast become moot in a i rue the day that's possible that they may just stop transmitting from out advance field entirely in i'm thinking ten to fifteen twenty years because why bother because everybody already have a five g connection of the have an internet connection why do you have to broadcast to the air i don't know so that's the worst case scenario is that there's no more transmission at all which case are we nothing going out over a cable  well though that there very little of the cable programming is local right so they're taking the feed from rational right they're taking did they have dishes that receives the content and then sends it out basically you're deriving your fee from channel three news if it's so essentially read this the only a few walkley produce shows that are you know you can now watch on the internet y it's a whole paradigm shift and you're stuck in the middle of it so you know and i think the question is is opening the door to local government still important and their work than ever right i think that that is true and like we think now more than ever so i will get that memo to you my apologies and if you'd like us to come back or if you have any questions you'd like to submit on line we can respond to them pretty quickly so thank you so much as a pleasure to see while it's nice to see there is a common section the only thing that would have to be in place if there was stuff to be someone here monitoring it and then addressing those questions in real time so it is a very very possible it's just instituting the practice i think is also worth pointing out on you t comes to your meeting recording comes with a transcription that's searchable so you can now search your archives based on keywords and find the point in the video where that you know sewer system or set or city center press that could shoot into you and you would get it like where we passed the the interim zoning by law and set into motion the committee nominations and just as requested that we consider adding a member of order on the book tour staff have some questions or seeking additional guidance on the goal the goals and objectives for the committee the questions are arising that we will need some input from the council about more specific guidance for the committee  not who serves on the committee but what the objectives of the committees are which i think the open space committee is pretty self explanatory although the means of achieving the outcome that you may desire for open space could be regulatory or it could be could be purchasing the rights so depending on how that goes will side step food would  support that i think probably ash actually will support the project as a staff member for the open space committee if it gets into regulatory issues amanda might also be involved in that what i am what i thought it was going to be doing was truly just prioritizing which lands you know the first year the second tier and there are tools in the open space report  that specify criteria for prioritization but they don't list specific areas in the city and so i just see that you know using the criteria that has that have been developed by the specialist and then the citizens committee and you know i think what they would need help with is identifying areas in the city that meet the criteria and  in areas that don't you know i mean i really i think that the question regarding regulations would come when we have the four studies coming together to see where their priorities align and where they don't ali n i really think it's important for the committees since there are so specialized to really operate in an environment where they do not feel that they have to compromise at the outset on what their their goals are and that you know in an ideal world when we get together whenever that is in april may or june and see the results of these of these studies that there would be some aligning and if there isn't that's when we have to really start compromising and then it's cities say ok where are your priorities are we going to buy t d r s are we going to buy land or are we going to use that land to build affordable housing are we going to use that land to leave it as is i think that's where the tough questions will come is at the end when we see how these things online and that was the objective the objective i had when i was putting together you know the committee is the composition of the committees the open space committee does lean on the prior report the and my thinking is that when they are developing these new subdivision regulations the regulations that they they want to have notion of whether or not this you know program that dates from the early two thousand is going to jibe with their new regulations right already we've seen our seven zoning changes and no change to the t d r program and some some of express regret over that to me personally i have heard here in council chamber some people question whether or not of those t d r s will actually be sold so i think that those are questions that need to be reviewed in the committee how many something that we were all asking paul conner how many you know are remaining how many receiving areas does this correlate and in addition that if we are thinking about the prior to station of lands for conservation right if we see how those two line or don't align and we see the cost benefit analysis boy you really should slow down on developing those plans for this from your your infrastructure or you need to make it more dense in this area as opposed to this area i think that's where the t d r the second step first step being is it working let's take a status report and then when we see the cost benefit analysis r s in order to you know identify where in the city we want that development to occur and if that means altering you know those those regulations that govern the t d r program that's what would greater transparency in the whole t v or picture so so personally i don't have a good knowledge or i don't know where there's a map that shows me where there are particular t v or sending properties i know in the southeast quadrant the northern southeast or the t d or receiving areas right but i just like to have a thorough accounting of what has happened in the past where things came from where they went in and i don't think any of this is secret information i mean i think it's probably you could just walk into to the vault right and go through the land so records sell records right and probably derive it unless it's unless there's a special record that's kept just for t d r s themselves and find out where they where they've been used and and also find out how many potential to the r s are left right and then try to look at the city as a map and say if you're going to stay within the southeast quadrant these are how many are left these are where they could be applied if you're going to go outside the southeast qua these are where they could possibly avoid be applied right at the same time you're then so it's all an open space question right the question is how do you preserve open space or create open space by managing your density and that's what the what's what was the past state what is the current state and what could be the future state of these things and i think they should we should be numerate those properties that we think and this is the where the privatization is right look at the individual property owners and the properties and the acreage is and the locations and their potential for being conserved or not you know like if it's a twenty acre parcel and most of it's underwater you're not going to build there anyway so it's probably going to be conserved because you can't build there right so that all these properties come at the intersection of of the quality of the property it's put its position within the zoning areas right and its ability to accept all those things right so if we need like a crystal ball to help us see that status right if we know that status then we can make a decision about how to change ourselves going forward to to have a that's that is so they get a desired future state we have a current state then without the help us get us a path to to get to the futures to do that answer any question what helps a lot i did hear in both of your comments of something that i have heard come up in this realm which is how i would expanding the t d r usable region to include other undeveloped properties throughout south burlington possibly relief the density growth pressure on the or three or four story apartment buildings right there that you have behind all scripts rehab four story apartment buildings or bartlett brook apartments four story apartment building maybe you go seven stories but then you have a height limitations right to that point i think that's why he logically excluded the transit overlay districts from from this interim zoning passage but it's still including all of the on the lands that he determined at eighty percent of no paved surfaces to now be swept up so in a way i don't know if it's going to go that way but to explore the feasibility of extending the t t r s right which would effectively cap the development potential of the properties outside of the s e q the way the t d r s did which could affect those landowners rights but still looking at ways that that might be a way fairly to all center that they would ever be able to sell their t d r s the city has never promised that to my knowledge correct me if i'm wrong ok so that puts the onus on the land owners to determine what they're going to do with their at any point in time right so you know if for example you know land prices are too high and there's no demand for it those t d r s could be stranded for twenty or thirty years before something happens we just don't know but i just want to read it or read that fact that there is no guarantee for any t v or holder that they can sell  well i suppose you could also use the t d r s to purchase something other than density that there may be other values right that that you could apply a lead and i'm not dismissive of that i'm just saying that from a market based approach the way this thing was written nobody has ever promised anything period and it's not to take away from the potential it's just that's what this whole system is to this study is going to make transparent all of these things right and and you know the complaints that we had from the people were we didn't know that land was for sale we didn't know you know and part of that is true and part of that is they could have found out easily if they had asked the right people of the property no one farm was for sale in the first place right because obviously the you know the developer found out it was for sale and bought it right but the point is more transparency probably lends itself to better decision making and long term for what's best for the city not just for a small group of investors or for a small group of land owners or whatever it is right good discussion but thank you that helps