is this a case in which the second circuit should affirm perhaps the most extreme destructive overreaching quick civil contempt penalties ever granted but it is ask you which one you're arguing of the two and correctly labeled reinvesting the warders have simply gone too far on the prior appeal in this action a very very large contempt sanction monetary was up hel but here as we've laid out in detail in our brief something more has happened and what has happened it goes beyond what the second circuit i believe contemplated as appropriate and sufficient remedies in this case the second circuit stated in its prior opinion that the the appellant's could return if it became clear that the remedy imposed by the district co was simply reaching too far to explain beyond the capacity of the palace to fulfill and that's exactly where we are here these were besting orders are something that have never ever in any case ever been imposed by one hundred fifty million dollars and escalating fines proved insufficient evidently correct and if that was so then what what's next he answers your honor the answer is  think so why not because i think the judge here was sort of desperately trying to avoid what seems to me the obvious remedy as the next the next step which is incarceration for civil contempt that's that's another issue that we c address if the time and occasion arises but here with the monetary sanction obviously impossible for fulfillment here and both sides acknowledge that well i'm puzzled there's a sort of contradiction isn't there and seems to me the most appealing argument or one of the most appealing arguments that you have is that these vesting warders overreach because they go well beyond they confiscate property that is worth well beyond what the original contempt fine was isn't that one of the things you're arguing that's not really the notice of argument the overreaching rather your honor you simply the expression he of the orders which are what makes it extreme extreme that in your view there are like a billion dollars worth of assets being confiscated yes we are acknowledging that and that is part of our content if there's a billion dollars worth of assets why is it impossible to a three point five million dollars plus interest plus attorney's fees about five million dollars as the assets are not cash assets nor are they readily liquidated all assets nor are nor will anyone lend you a dollar let alone three million dollars on this purported billion dollars worth of assets my clients and pursue that angle they have some potential in that regard but as of yet the answer is no there has not been anything that would remotely approach the satisfaction of what's called for here and therefore what are you proposing i mean what should they just quite have done just well take a lo orders are being ignored and although by virtue of an order of this court three point six million dollars was erroneous the paid in these folks declined to repay it you know it's all over never mind district court is entitle to consider in valuating whether was part of his inherent power or pursuant to rule seventy he could order the revestive orders that he did and the district court can consider something further but the district court cannot reach into a foreign sovereign nation and eliminate a judgment that's on the books in that country it cannot go into that foreign nation and simply seize the assets of companies located in that foreign nation and completely not does that if i didn't those companies appear before the district court here at least one of them seeking relief and obtained an order for three point payment of three point six million that was  that it's a bit of a stretch for you to try to characterize this as without reason or or any basis your honor those companies did not come here it was a district court because those companies did not come to the us well they did if they were alter egos of the one the did that doesn't mean that they came to the us it's simply a determination that under u s law reportedly these companies are all griego to one another but how about the law of the jurisdiction where those companies were formed and where they operate legally and legitimately and have done so for the past seven years in useful to me what you say that the district court invalidated a judgment of the courts of maurice's because it is handing that judgment over to bank moving ira if that's obviously banks would already if that judgment is property of an entity that is before the court putting aside i mean there may be questions under the rule about whether this is properly vested or revisited in someone else but if it is property that's before the court and the rule does permit property before the court to be vested in someone else i don't see how turning a judgment over to someone else constitutes invalidating the judgment the numeration judgment belongs to and was obtained by first global funds limited that's the entity that holds the more recent thank you mark green all going to manual or carton sullivan on behalf of bank movie r a may please the court the district court's order was well within its discretion to issue these particular contempt sanctions they were designed to co worse and to compensate bank muti are the contempt orders have been affirmed by this court the escalating fines have been affirmed by this court and continued to accrue until we suggested to the district court that they were not going to serve their purpose and that four hundred million dollars had become punitive you know how much how much money are we actually fighting about here the three point six million the five point four million or the whole four hundred fifty million well we so banked that the escalating fines under the rules would not go to bank moody i would go to the court he would go to the court and so they were meant to compel they failed although they are still a fine that is out there that using these entities these judgments these bombs and these companies for a worldwide campaign that he's paying lawyers in singapore to prosecute so well these these assets are not worth the full amount of the five million dollars there were something to bank moody r a nothing to anyone else which is why they're an appropriate compensatory contempt order now are you relying on rule seventy b or are you relying on the general equitable powers of the court to enforce its orders were both both your honor certainly rule seventy b for the first order which is the judgment which under new york state law is a intangible asset i mean mr mr manuals wrong that rule seventy b talks i understand the point that this is an asset that is before the court but a rule seventy b talks about voter real or personal property which references back property that already was the subject of a judgment i would have thought maybe money as well as other property but the property that's the subject of the judgment so is that is that something that rule seventy b contemplates that if they don't pay a sum of money then some other as that is available in the jurisdiction can be effectively attached is that would destroy is talking about i  believe it is it is sort of a substitute asset to satisfy a judgment and there's no question that the contempt order is a judgment and that judge crotty could use rule seven d to  try and satisfy that judge which is what he's trying to do here with these three orders which are also meant to be coercive but the judgement didn't require a party to convey land delivery deed or other document the initial contempt order that that's that and that's what rule seventy we first to write yes that that's correct this is so it's not a usual use but the courts have held that said rule seventy can be used to convey over whom it has personal jurisdiction i must admit i'm inclined to if i had to guess at the value of these assets i would guess a value closer to one dollar of them to one billion dollars but i'm not supposed  things like that was it not incumbent on the district court to make some assessment of the value of the assets in question to determine whether they were proportionate to the amount of the judgment in question well the district court had already received significant evidence when it is to the original expanded contempt order including a hearing with live witnesses and there had been discovery into these entities and their assets so the district court was familiar with the entities their claims and and the arguments had made clear that it's only claims not to mention an ex parte submission by the appellant in this case about their financial position so the district court certainly had sufficient information to understand that the assets worth would be compensatory if the third the third order conveying the equity interest came to fruition although remember the district court gave west in twenty one days in between each to even make a partial payment and it did nothing but even these judgments up for what they're worth  there i mean they're worth nothing they they can't enforce them any place there was no personal jurisdiction over bank move in mauritian s when they were sought and also mr manual says that somehow they have as a matter of law we and we were waiting until this court ruled we won and you know it's an interesting question whether mr mr manual can even represent be the companies here because as this court denied his motion to stay and so technically our client for the purposes of us law owns these companies then he should only be representing mr ligi but we didn't press that argument to give this court the opportunity to fully review judge order which we recognize is not usual that this is simply not a usual case where four hundred million dollars in escalating fines fail to compel simple compliance with a simple information to its order so we have never sought personal confinement because our concern is that that simply won't work and we just want to end that if we're not going to get back the money at least let us try and stop the cases being prosecuted by by westin in singapore and elsewhere in the world and so that was our goal that would come compensate bank moody are a better than mr ligi languishing in jail and continuing to thumb his nose at the court to the district court relied ordered reeve rest men and your company posing counsel to listen this was an unprecedented  can you address that question i mean it's not unprecedented for a district court to order a party over whom it has personal jurisdiction to deliver property to another party  that happens all the time we were using the language of the rule of rule seventy two vestment reverse meant but the the nomenclature is not important what is important is judged within his discretion acted appropriately to convey the property of the contenders over whom he had personal jurisdiction and to try and coworkers and compensate as as he was entitled to do unless the court has any questions will rest memory of the manual three movements first of all there was a reference to the fact that the original judgment was purchased for one dollar this is not all at all uncommon in this world there are many many firms globally some of them very very large that are in the business of dealing in distressed assets they do these kinds of things and they serve a valuable function in the business community globally they keep the bad guys at least a little bit honest they can't walk away with tens or hundreds of millions of dollars of money that was borrowed or invested and simply escape untarnished the function we're questioning the value of the function the issue is what is the actual value of the his judgments and at least somebody was willing to take one dollar for them and there are other similar assets that we are realizing upon western went in with its eyes open you know just pay a dollar i mean on the one hand you say that and that makes it very compelling when you're focused on an order that says the entire s s the entire equity of these entities are going to be delivered to her and it's not clear to me what those as it's even are and you actively pursuing this around the globe as mr greenwald mentioned we have proceedings in singapore there are related proceedings in cyprus there are proceedings in london all of it directed to this criminal enterprise that being financed it is you're paying lawyers on three continents to pursue these assets but you can pay back three million dollars we are very seriously under paying lawyers on several continents your honor and i think i'm and you have a bargain apartment that trump towers to your honor being paid the operating costs the operating costs of this enterprise do not remotely approach what it cost similar  companies to pursue these matters i have been in that apartment that is for all practical purposes a workstation and a very active workstation at least when i have have been there is not some luxury affair