like to welcome everyone to tonight select board meeting nice to have you all here just as a reminder you have one of these which most people do if you could turn it to silent or off or something that it doesn't ring that would be greatly appreciated thank november fifth select for discussion on shooting ranges there's also two documents sent over by fish and wildlife earlier today both tied to the west mountain west mountain shooting range and its purpose of the range and some rules and guidelines   one slick board member any watts is not at the table right now he's on his way he's going to be a little bit late but he will be joining us soon depending on traffic ok so we're on to the point of the general which is public to be heard and that's a time for the public to speak to the select board on items that are not on the agenda is there anyone here tonight wishing to speak  ok well then that being the case we're going to go to our first item of business and we have an interview tonight for a position on the energy committee by michael gifford is michael here wonderful  would join us at at that table with the microphone first we'd like to welcome you and thank you so much for being willing to step forward and volunteer to be on the energy committee what we'd like to do is just hear about i work actually from on gas and energy services department and i am about to reach my hours where i can sit for the professional engineering licensure and i'm working towards my certified in their g manager  licensure so that's kind of my educational background of my other background is i am an essex resident obviously and i have a little boy i'm a new dad and so i don't know if some good part of that is for me makes me want to do more civic duty and get more involved in the community and i feel it's important in terms of what why i want to join the committee is i like to be we obviously are facing climate situations that affect us all and i wan help the town and village reach energy efficiency goals while trying not to put to an undue burden on the residences arm of the taxpayers ok that's excellent  my goals and priorities are to support the community you know using some of my engineering knowledge to help with certain aspects of of maybe measures and procedures in reading from some of the documentation to help maybe provide insight in and into what the engineering behind some projects might be but the other part of it is my major goal is to reduce energy consumption you know city wide whether it's even municipal buildings commercial enterprises in residential trying to find a way to reduce energy consumption you know no no magic bullet per se but you know save save the taxpayers money save the people money and also  t and i'm open minded you know i may work for the gas company but of it's not i'm not here to sell gas i'm here to solve energy solution to find energy solutions that other questions like it's my understanding that you've been to a few of the meetings i've participated in one year ago for ok in that very brief experience you find the committee moving in the direction that you thought that they would be well there's a lot of excitement right now for one of the initiatives taking place but not the mission and i was meeting i was at so any time you're seeing that kind of excitement and you know feet on the ground kind of activism towards help a program that i think that's moving in the right direction that you know putting than or gee into the energy committees are good is a good good way of looking at it and i don't i don't know really where they're moving but there was a great group of people and a diverse group of people which i think is also important for you know brainstorming talking through ideas and looking at things different the different points of view i think are really important to me thank you very we think of the meeting  what it does is it provides the residents of essex in westford and the opportunity to get a free energy a walk through if they sign up and building energy and energy corp of vermont will provide the audit ex expertise to do a walkthrough on people's homes and no charge you know it's not a full audit if they find stuff that could lead to a full audit that not go from there but they can find little things to help people save save on the be a little bit more comfortable this one that's ok and what about time do you have the time that available for this loss which they need yes and my wife is very supportive of this she's at home right now for a little logan to bed so you know she so she's available for me to have the time and also because i work in energy services it's from our gas is encourages it and so it's not something it's it's something that if i'm putting time towards the energy community and they believe in that kind of civic engagement ok that support one ok and the other questions and really get the process typically is we will go into executive session at the end of the meeting  have a discussion to come out and make a decision but if the board wants to do it differently we can entertain that yes i would move that we go ahead and have rather than go in and this will bring it to full complement and there's just one opening there and the energy committee is starting to take off the suits and good works that ok so if it's ok to do it open the board then i would entertain a motion is typically permitted through the public utility commission at the state in this case they came across some issues on the on the site where they have some rare threaten endangered species that they don't want to disturb an agency of natural resources doesn't want to  dissenting vote was concerned about potentially setting a precedent for other projects with the puppy till the commission but otherwise it's before you tonight to see how you feel ok thanks for that intro ok questions from districts is a twenty five foot setback from rear and side property lines i think it you can certainly make it an emotion if you vote to support this which is what the recommendation from staff you could do so and acknowledge that this is not setting a precedent i think you could still take it on a different different approach if it came up say next to a residential neighborhood or a mixed use district i don't believe that you're setting a precedent  that are going to allow me to vote in the affirmative on this one of them i'd like to see taken to a more permanent status and that's because it is a budding industrial property i i do not need waivers for i don't believe in waivers and residential property for that for industrial and the fact that the owner has signed an agreement saying that he's ok with  is going to allow me to say yes on this one but i would like to investigate the possibility of having that be reduced to writing where it would only be granted against industrial embody us and the the request mentions that there's a substantial impact to the project if this isn't allowed to you can you quantify what substantial is yes i can to approximately increase the deployment of panels by six percent or four hundred twenty thousand watts d c which would equate to a three to four percent overall increase in total output and over the life of the project which is estimated to be about thirty five years it is a significant number and just to remind the board that this project is a g m p project for all g n p ratepayers and the more solar production systems able to produce produces a higher rate of return for the project in the higher rate of return lowers the overall cost of operating the system and all benefits from this project including the storage component do go back to the ra and so because if they came in if they stuck to the fifty foot waiver the state would be issuing a permit as long as it was satisfied with the other requirements because they're requesting less than that fifty foot setback that's why the state defer looks to the town anybody i think this would be just the exception right then it doesn't change the ordinance of the fifth nor does know if there's another application that came in and beat a similar permit by the public utility commission if they requested a waiver that would again come to the select board for for  are saying you can take any future case in a case by case basis you're stating your reasons for potentially permitting this one that doesn't mean the next one that comes through the door gets it or not he has his circumstances you're listening to it as i understand it you had a fifty foot setback proposed and then you came up against natural yeah the tat and other things that  aspects we also took out a significant portion of vegetative management so this all goes into increasing the output which was not known at the time until all of the site walks were done by all the agencies and that just got completed about two and a half weeks ago and greg do you know if any other waivers have been allowed in that zone in recent time first solar stuff i know just any setback waiver and indeed any dust rose on the i'm not aware of a setback waivers to join a district of the north as a resource preservation district industrial this disputes up against the industrial piece of that district within there there's so case like request for waivers to go into the fifty foot front buffer what church is supposed to be a forested area the planning commission has granted some waivers in that instance and that's for various reasons in some cases that fifty foot buffer is kind of scraggly and there's not much force there to maintain anyway so at the barest but that's that's an example ok ok other questions on this seems kind of straightforward  so as i've done in the past workshops on the firearms ordinance i'd like to just give a an overview of how we're going to run this one so i just a little bit of background  october fifteenth select board proposed eliminating the discharge of firearms on the town properties of indium broke in saxon hill parcels except during november first through december fifteenth these no discharge areas extended property boundaries of these parcels without a five hundred foot buffer beyond these their property lines the current five hundred foot no discharge buffer extending out from indian brooks high water mark will remain in place year round as it is  today no discharge of firearms will be allowed on the tree farm parcel all year the town will develop a policy for signage at these parks regarding firearms discharge ordinance then the channel also develop a plan to educate the public on any firearms discharge ordinance changes and again these changes don't go into effect until there's it gets accepted by the select board has to get approved by the select board we go to a public hearing to hear from the public and then it has to get approved that after that so there's a there's a long process tonight we're going to have just the workshop going on tonight we're going to discuss and deliberate on the farm system charge ordinance as it relates to sport shooting ranges the select board had a previous meeting decided to break up the discussions into discrete parts and tonight it's the sports shooting range discussions after the select board has had  discussions on the sports shooting ranges we will open it up to the public for comments and as i've done before i'll give you more details on that when we get to that point in the process but after the public comments bring it back bring the discussion back to the board table to get a sense of the board and what if any changes they propose relating to sport shooting ranges that we would then ask staff to draft some language for so we won't be taking any formal vote it'll be you know a consensus of where we want to go because we with ordinances we discuss them and then at one one time we do an approval on the whole thing so what we're just breaking up for discussion manageable discussion  points on this one so is that clear that we're going to do tonight we're going to have this look for have our discussion but we will certainly invite you for your comments after that so if there's no questions on that then i'm going to we're going to we're going to start and as i did on the other discussions as chair i thought it would be wise to put a straw man out there for the select  every mentioned before throw darts at so and we added that to the agenda at the beginning of the meeting so what i'd like to do is just go over those points for the board and again this is only to begin the discussion you can take it to whatever direction you want but i thought i put a stake in the ground then i thought we could maybe discuss so this like more knowledge is a legitimate concern  many residents have regarding safety in noise generated from residential sport shooting ranges so therefore i'd like to make this proposal to just start the discussion we've all been giving this a lot of thought this is not something that we just started thinking about recently it's been you know we've been on this for for years but what i regarding sports shooting ranges what i'd like us to consider for discussion anyway is having all shooting ranges in essex be required to obtain a permit from the town in order for property owner to operate an active shooting range on property currently permits are required for open burn on  private property today just as an example of a permit that you have to get if you want to do burn your leaves or or a large amount of brush i'd like us to consider making permits renewable every couple of years or at some other regular frequency i would propose that the permits list all the criteria that the select board decides is pertinent for reasonable safety and noise level my examples regarding that criteria understanding what date the range was established i believe the burden of proof would be on the property owner and it's important for the select board to know his his department anyway to review perhaps either the n r a zareen sourcebook or some other reference to see if it's valid to use as a reference manual for backyard shooting range design  criteria for example you know we would expect it to be designed to contain all fired shots so that we don't have any errant ones going off in a direction that was not intended in the permit i would propose that including all buildings and properties within a certain defined distance i don't know what distance that would be but that's something we can talk about i propose that the define hours of operation also be included in there i'd like it to contain clear language that the property owner takes on all liability risks of the range and like to make sure that there's clear language that states that the town takes zero liability risks of your personal range  police will ask the police to do some type of background check whatever they're able to do on the permit request or similar to what we do for liquor licenses before we approve a liquor license there's  just a criminal background check this is not the background check you would do for painting a firearm this is one that again that we would do for similar to what we do for liquor license if that's possible i like it also to be very clear on fines and penalties that we think are appropriate for violations of the permit i don't expect those to ever have to be and acted as long as we have a very clear up there what they would be so that nobody is surprised if there is a violation what the what that penalty maybe i would like the permits to be reviewed and approved by this board this select board similar to how we currently therefore the public will be given an opportunity to speak before the slug or decision is made and i would like the the town staff to reach out to all of the neighbors and businesses on all sides of the property which the permit is being requested so that they are notified and if they so wish to attend that they know that we would have a meeting with that discussion and that if they so choose to to make a comment that we would do that before a decision is made so i am in no way dictating this is what we would do this is just thoughts that i had to begin the discussion trying to use common sense also practices that we  doing today whether it's a a burned permit or a liquor license and trying to come up with something that would be allow the police to know exactly where these are located we don't know where they are today the assumption is that any existing ones are being run properly we we know that people are almost always responsible when it comes to this and they respect that we understand that we appreciate it but we're looking to to make some progress here too toward safety and noise and how can ranges also work to be to be good neighbors as most of them i assume are start with one question and that is do you know of any other towns that have something like this does anyone else harmony i don't ride ranges not in this sense we came across to town to responded to several inquiries for myself from  are welcome would we hope to generate a map that we can post on the website to show folks where the ranges are for example if someone think of buying real estate they wanted to or not be depending on their hobbies maybe they want to be close to a couple  so it's clear where it's located on the property lines where it's located regarding buildings what direction it's pointing it's a public record so anybody could could requested whether we want to put on the website or i think we should talk about but if somebody requested a copy of it it would be a public record and therefore avail in language that says it's not the town expecting it and have would have no liability but our attorney is here and perhaps we could put him on the spot and see if that's what his thoughts are if you're willing ranges you know nothing like as i indicated in my memo no no if you saw that and i did that insulating yourself from liability is very difficult anyone can sue  you can get sued for anything successfully getting sued is a different question my thought was on the liability and you have insurance but you also have indemnification language that you could require as part of the permit and insurance requirements on the part of the property owner that would be your first fall back of the town was ever dragged in because you'd be one of many defendants i'm sure if that was the case the property owner or whoever pulled the trigger they're going to be a defendant as well so i'm not overly concerned with and liability issues  if you go to a permanent paradigm thank you and with regard to the two thousand and six date  i guess the question is can we force someone who has a has a range that was that they can prove was in existence prior to that day if you know we have them come through the permanent process and if so why would we do that if we can't really say no to the memory we still have some authority over those ranges that were in existence prior to two thousand  establish what that level is so that if there's any complaint we know if they've been if they're above or not on that but they ask your question legally can we ask and do that for me again i don't i don't want to even orientation or range yes i think it would also be important for a property owner to indicate prominent terrain features if there's exposed ledge or there's a hill of some kind which is i think would be a on or yeah you have to go out get a surveyor to go get this you know parcel map but just indicating any of that it's important to know if there's expose ledge and there's a suing range near it i think that's right and by having it  responsibility i don't think that the property owner should be coming in and saying this is what i'm going to operate my shooting range i think we have an opportunity here to say that you can operate it from eight am to six pm and on weekends from nine am to five pm i don't know that i think that's our response for they all know that the property owners can all come in and say that and we have a variety of operating hours i when i wrote this  i realize that you know so and some would maybe it would be a hindrance and they could operate twenty four hours a day and nobody would know or care right and i hate to put a limitation of hours you know too restrictive on them versus somebody who's next to a business that's trying to make a business and allow that twenty four hours a day you know so i wanted to allow some judgment there in that that was my  says to me that there's you know subjectivity in terms of the location whereas if we're saying this is the hours of operation similar to my noise ordinance i feel like that would be a little bit easier to enforce particularly for the  if the property owner chooses not to come forward and share that they have of ranges and we don't know that it exists how are we going to not exist and so i would like to know how we're going to enforce this because i don't think this includes people going around checking out whether there's ranges right i thought process was with and that's why i added the fines and penalties just like a dog license if you have a dog and you don't get licensed no does it become a check but if that dog gets in a fight and gets reported well you're going to get followed and the same idea would be here if  the last question is referring back to our package from the october fifteenth meeting are recalls a memo or some questions being answered by chief kerry his concerns about permits and so i would like to hear from the now that we have something more concrete to think about whether what his concerns might still be if she shows she's here would you mind giving us your thoughts on my apologies or could be on the spot concerns about her if you could come up where bill is as well that the previous conversation and you had a generic concern a concern about issuing permits it was not specific as to why you didn't think we should do that you know the one i remember most is talking about addressable reading in order to dictate the noise and i recommended that is not going to work well that you you've either got to set a date or a time limit or hours if you show choose trying to set a decimal reading or stay firm you're going to shoot is going to be up in the upper level of all of those readings and so we have as you probably know williston had a case where they tried to set the limits and that was overturned by the supreme court basically referring back to what the standard is that it's been operating on a regular basis i think permitting is probably my opinion at this point is probably the right way to go whether it's as zoning or whether it's through the select forward with a lease to allow us to set a standard that's reasonable and acceptable and allow us to know where they are and then also have the ability for enforcement if they're not follow that you also get the ability to review right didn't get to set the standards you for having problems with them we can look at them if you have neighbors that have issues they can come in and talk to you say these  hearing shots and hearing shots every day that week and hearing shots all year round and so i wondered if it's reasonable to ask range owners and range users what a four hour what a six hour window every day be offensive to you and with the intent of bringing getting back to it soon there after town meetings say in order to affect the you know the upcoming next year's season but timeline for permanent i don't know  no what's that what's the you know i and i also have concern about the the background check that you're suggesting i'm not sure that that's really relevant to discussion about operation of a shooting range and how potentially public that could become the the discussion about background check up though could we end up having a by permit hours of operation discussion to you know the i know well if if if if someone works a twelve hour shift and they're not not home certain hours of the day and the the their neighbor is on a different twelve hour shift and they're never overlap anyway then you know there might be more freedom there or if somebody has a business next door to a place where there's a shooting range could there be hours of operation that they don't coincide with the business operation you know did does it have to be a one size fits all discussion or is it a  and i just worry about it being too nitpicky an arbitrary yeah i was i am still more paper of it being a flexible time based on the location of it you know  and i welcome that challenge to try and put something together that is going to be fair to all concerned on it would be my hope and again i don't know how you you couldn't permit this but it would be my hope that people that have ranges would we do the neighborly thing and just let their neighbors know if if they haven't already that they're going to be establishing of range where it's going to be and just just approach a neighbor and just let them know what the plan is i think few other comments and it's not about environmental impacts and i don't see any bullet points about that but i know that not over time you know there's a lot of and  you i'm just again curious from members of the audience to hear what you would suggest for yourselves and for your friends as ways to mitigate the dangers of the lead and other things to get into the environment with ranges public shooting range i know that's been brought up a number of times and i know there's there's some resistance to do that because of the potential liability but i think the bill is told us that there's ways around that and i particularly asked the question with regard now we have that the tree farm is operated by the tree farm management group and they they run the whole thing we were centrally not involved they have their own insurance and so forth and i don't you know if a if an organization came to the town and asked to operate in a similar fashion operate a shooting range that we didn't have to operate or supervise or maintain them you know is that is that that something that we would ever consider and what with the purpose being to do that well you could say no to some of these permits and people would still have a place to go to go shopping so yeah if we if there were an available public one you would say no more private shooting ranges that we know i wouldn't say no more i said with there if there are some that are of wood in question a location is or have safety risks that we did you know we could say no to them without eliminating the possibility of those folks using shooting or i mean people people in this room have said if there was a place to a public place to shoot they may not shoot on their own property i don't know if that's true or not i do not know if people with would you know join a adding additional shooting ranges that if it's not going to reduce the total number of others i mean i would rather offer discount tickets to their existing shooting ranges to our reason i didn't talk about that because it really has no they do with the with the residential you know permit process of branches but that could you know if somebody want to go forward and propose something you know we wouldn't say you know right off the bat i think we have to g talks about not using a landfill area near the c s w drop off center i'd be curious for staff at some point to research are there other town own properties or even school on properties where you could be set up that could be there was a well publicized back at the beginning of this process there was a well publicized incident where a round was discharged into a home well it came from jer of a few months ago i can double check if it's changed but westford has no regulations jericho has no regulations goldberg called justin willis didn't have to leave it's tied to district but they have some limitations based on where in town of what what over those two years go by and then the person would come back to get renewed and i think as part of our data package or whether or not we want to renew it is i think it's important to look and see how have there been violations have there been complaints or valid complaints for that particular range and by asking the chief to either keep track of them or go or do a background check whatever it would be that you want to say oh yeah i just i just didn't realize that you are implying that would it would be limited to issues surrounding the shooting range itself i thought you know drunk driving white you know any any infraction would come up and then become part of public record and that's that's what i that's perfect that's that's the biggest part of my concern but yes if there are violations against a particular shooting range i think we should wait for two associated with the range i'm i'm certainly ok with that but if it's it was just a general overall background check i'm more concerned ok ok then we can see that you know that that's what i wanted to add with the liquor licen scenario if he is getting back to us with liquor license violations only and i would want to make sure that any background check for again he said for a shooting range would be relevant to just the sitting down and not get a person entire personal life we actually get others with other background violations that is speeding tickets and itself you're dealing with the owners that are associated with the establishment there is it's not through us but you guys do get a criminal history background check through the state of vermont on those owners and anything that's related to violations of that establishment or misusing mislike serving alcohol or anything that's related that you may need to make a decision by granting them coming up with there is a criminal history that's done not through us with the state of vermont of the owners or the people applying for the application and one of them is a while sometimes we do not ticket a person for do you why on that establishment we come to find out where you work and that is attributed back to that principal place of business so that's kind of the background stuff i think we're talking about and you know we're we're not trying to limit you know what but we are trying to balance public safety and neighbors and neighbors rights we've had the complaints from businesses trade operate from residents and neighbors and i think where they are that's important  when were you established because somebody moves in next to you they think they should either know that something is there or now you move in and you complain about your neighbor who's been there for twenty years we could at least say not only they've been there for twenty years we can talk to him about what they're doing but those types of things get  yes the word background check i'm not a gun owner but to me it has certain connotations so if we can change those words background check to say so called something else a review of something you know but but if we could use just our own unique phrase it doesn't say background check which to me has all kinds of connotations that i don't know that we want interviews and maybe that's getting at what he was saying earlier ok but to do that this data we're looking for is before we open it up to the public really took a over the ok so this is the part of the meeting where i'd like to open it up to the public in part hopefully you're able to hear what we were talking  about so i just like to review some things that just just say that as always please keep your comments respectful brief and focused on shooting sports shooting ranges tonight will be opportunities at subsequent meetings when we open it up to the whole ordinance but again tonight we're defining it to just sports using ranges again please do not interrupt or have side conversations while others are speaking it's show everyone that the will walk clear that you know that your time is about up and again please be respectful of others time if someone ahead of you makes a point that you would want to say you can just say did or i agree with the person that just spoke aware that we that it's excruciating for you to watch to watch happen but we are attempting as evan said we're trying to balance many interests including safety rights traditions and many other things so is that clear how we're going to do this ok so you know question so what i'd like to do is just by show of hands if you would so i know about how much time to give to each how many people or show of hands would like to speak tonight on this are or on what level they're operating this permit will allow us to document that on an include in those before two thousand and six what level were you running at so that we know if a violation or a complaint is made being go well oh they're above it so yeah that's a violation or they're day i just have a real problem with with the border tele landowners what they can and can't do on their own property that we've been doing for years and years and years so i  guess from b it feels like it's a foregone conclusion that you're basically trying to take away all their shooting rights in the town this to be this feels very similar to the multiple votes on town merger where we voted no and yet the board continues to consolidate things here in games there even though people spoke out and said they didn't want to so yet again i just feel like there's an agenda and they're just not be listen far as you know to consist of me pulling my rifle in my backyard and shooting four rounds down range to verify that it's on target for the season and then the way or is it for the  you take action and decide that everybody needs to be permitted one not for example in my house i started shooting target practicing down there and this sighting in target practicing  i live very nice of one hill away from everybody else i can see some houses there substantially away in the right shoe is in between the ledges down a value to the ground type of thing you know is put thank you so much for your feedback in your your thoughts in tim's right this is not an interview enviable position to be in we're trying to balance you know your rights and traditions with rights we're trying to do is get a handle on shooting ranges in where they are so we can see maybe they're more like this that we saw on this map and board would not be good to know so that we can we can address that before another incident like professor rice the tragic death of professor rice happened so it is a tough situation that the board is in but we don't we don't shy away from them from hard work is i position but we're going to do the best we can with the information we have and our requirement for the health and safety of the community so all right with that will lecture and sorry i'm going to bring it back to the board so we had talked about the idea of permeating we had some outlines we made some adjustments to it as we've done before now that we've heard input on on this for the public who is here tonight is there any changes you like to consider lane or come to a right i have no changes to offer at this time but what i do want to say based on what we heard in the audience is the difference between burden of proof and evidence of exist and i think it's very important that we know where these places are and we may find as we continue this conversation that establishing the age of certain ranges may be impossible and we need to acknowledge that yes that where they are i have concern about the need to remove them because as as has been explained they go with the land so even if the property owner some you know and some violation occurs or not and we haven't defined what those violations could be i think it needs to be brought up immediately and not wait for two years so i don't understand i guess i'm  because that because i think that's the other thing that we determine that a sport shooting ranges anything from somebody who's in enthusiasm is out there every day with their guns all the way down to playing out a pipe plate on a tree and there's no there's no official definition of that so anyway i'm not in favor of i'm less in favor of having the renewal discussion i would like to know where they are and i and i think that you know given you know that this picture that was given to us that there should be some at least some safety review you know again as long as it doesn't put us in a land of liability situation  k so what if there's a change or or if the shooting range moves would it need to get report written or would that original permit still it's good question and that was the idea of this renewal thing is that if there are changes we'd want to we want to be able to document that so that we now know where they are if they if they  it goes with the land if it follows so so if you if you purchase a piece of property that has an establishing range on it you may use it in if it's a grandfathered shooting range it's continues to be grandfathered it's my understanding that grandfather m i've been target shooting sometimes ten we had a perfect lock for it was he had my my dad had a single shot twenty two piece shooter and leaves just when we put your hands on the stake and shoot into a hill nobody behind us it was perfect i have zero problem with hunter's zero we have absolutely no miss you name i'm sorry for him or just scares the hell outta me and that's why that's why i'm doing this what i'd like to see instead of hunters tell unless they are or shooters telling us why they feel like you infringed on stand up and go knock on this guy's neighbor's door and tell him that their range we've gotten letters over the last six months same names at the bottom of the letter same names form a committee it doesn't have to be a legal committee but form a committee and h help us out help us do the right thing because the last thing i want to do is take away your ability to target shoot but they haven't i don't want somebody coming here and telling me that they pulled a round out of their house so you know what help us help your little bit stand up go see this guy you don't have to act like the police or anything need to actually just raise your hand and not shout out goes for everybody and then you wait to be recognized we brought it back to the board and they need to follow that protocol ok there's going to be time afterwards before this ever becomes so i wonder if instead of having a two year automatic you've got to come back and talk to us again or whoever's here in our seats what if whenever there's a what if there's a list of things that require someone to come back in if and when they happen if the owner of the range doesn't change you don't have to come back in once it is a stablish once this mandatory survey we're doing if we get called a survey i don't want to get all into permeating and make it as onerous thing but i really do want to have a survey and if i call it a survey no one's going to take it seriously so i think we have to call it a permit at least up front get an idea of where all these ranges are and once we know unless you sell your property unless you change the direction of your range unless you take down the berms and the things that are protecting it that we approve in the first round you don't have to see us again you can have your range for fifty or seventy or ninety years as long as it stays safe and you're still in charge of it and so forth i want to make this easy on folks and with all due respect i really don't know the outcome of these conversations i've been to many properties i've talked to many people on all sides of this issue i'd love to know where it's going to end but i with all due respect i do not know where this is going to and i'm along for this ride and i'm learning every day and i thank you for all of your input but please don't assume that you know where this what i'd like to do for tonight as as a kid was posted to try to define everything is a lease get into an idea this is the direction we want to go then i'd like the staff to be able to work with what maybe a permit would look like maybe what the not the burden of proof of establishment of the date what that criteria may look like to let them work with legal and our law enforcement and then come back with a draft at some time in the future but if we think that the permanent thing is the way to go with roughly what we talked about here questions about you know maybe the renewal piece i don't think we have to get to much more correct we've taken knows we've got lots of input to go with yes and so yeah i think given some the cost structure of what it was some more some options hunting season anyway so we're not so we good with where we are today for sure the rate is with the idea of some type of permit ing and we had a lot of input i think you have plenty of notes outlined it and then them we'll come back to the future meeting it again maybe we want to put give them plenty of time to sound like maybe some months will give us time to do the budget and we can pick this up on the date per se so again that's something i want to explore more in our conversations but i'm work it's a nothing's better not the date that you establish your range and how you use has very because you can be a very heavy rains user as long as you're safe i don't care to go do that i guess that's where we get police involved and say listen can you maybe stop by there because suggested find out something may be unsafe about it or whatever and potentially deal with that and i was also told that the police talk to your neighbor but when your neighbor decides no i don't want to listen to you i get to do whatever i want whenever i want the police need something called an ordinance which is what we're talking about they need something to be able to go to your property and say you are in violation and then if it has to to go to court and only then a judge decides where that goes that's what the police need they will talk to anybody they always do but if you don't want to listen and you don't want to be a good neighbor that's what we fall back on and you've heard i don't want to call it testimony but we've heard all the comments most of the good neighbors we never hear from you we don't hear from you because you taking care of it yourself we range from people who let their dogs out to people who play loud music to people who shoot their guns in the in the regular we get the whole range nobody wants to take a walk on the liability of saying yeah i saw it and it was they're not going to do it probably for some the same reason we don't we don't know what you're going to do with it we're not responsible or don't want to be whatever you do with it off your property nobody wants that to come back to you and say is this your signature no vision to do that and so that's why when when we talk about some of the stuff we're not saying we're going to certify your range or your day we're going to show you that the n r a and i am book or the fish and wildlife as a book you should we're just looking at the general conditions like this map of we prefer you to turn that way and not towards this person's house that's kind of the stuff we're talking about well we'll never serve whether you're ranger or your property is safe we're not going to do that ok thank you so it to me but copy the rest of the board so they all know what you're thinking too so this is not done this is just the workshop step there's a lot many more steps to go before we get norman so th is looking at our copiers across our many different buildings and there's all kinds of agreements all kinds of equipment different companies different brands different contracts i t found a company national business technologies that which we can enter into one contract one agreement to serve all the properties it's actually would result in savings annual savings of almost ten thousand dollars ninety nine hundred dollars and the recommendations would be replacing sixteen copiers between the town in the village would be paying and the company would pay off the existing lease agreements buy them out they would add a copier to the finance department which they have been looking for and it would replace a public copier at the brownell library with a device that includes money collection capabilities which allow the profits to go to the library and the lease room includes all the toner the parts labor travel and supplies the only exceptions are paper and staples so this is going to go to the that we just approved a change the purchasing policy that contracts under forty thousand dollars don't have to come to the board over the life of this contract it is over forty thousand dollars on a decisive we can eliminate some work for you but you're right and we had a discussion about that right great the first one out of the box and then we said no ethics we this is the life of the contract this is the right thing to do and we wanted to the boards to see the work that had gone into this and what happens when you work together and combine your contract ok with  i guess to extend the purchasing question did we go out for bids for this and we choose the company actually they came to us and they did an audit yes i remember that discussion previously that where if if the results of their outage were or were when we approved the the we we had a discussion about the i don't know if we have proved anything in that discussion not we just did an audit and  we have verified their references etc to look at and one of the things we be doing is as a sole source i get that there are reputable firm we just are not and i'm not my saying they are i'm just questioning whether whether because of the amount and the that that and that it's multiple years or is it multiple years do we need to go out of is our purchasing policy requires to go up for bid for this that the library gets to use the money collected in that area and that's the intent is to allow them to to do that and i understand it's the village library so maybe i have no right to ask the don't really care but i just just from the standpoint of we're enabling an outside funding source for the library are we using town funds to do that i just want to make sure we're being transparent on that we probably have an audi that brutally honestly don't know what they're doing with their nickels and dimes down right but i hope they're putting it into shingles because we just you know fixing up the building so it was right but start of page one now these pages are numbered but i did number them myself so page one have been two years since the last effort to consolidate recreation and one on last and voters were told this is what i like to insert because this is why i sat in voters were told that if the rec district proposal did not pass the departments would not urge and then i would answer vaca them voters were afraid not our afraid on one thousand i would then put a period after absorb and say therefore it is important to inform the public frequently about the upcoming meeting scheduled a meeting scheduled before town meeting is two weeks before and we're typically not ready to weeks before so i'm just wondering i know i realize that the week before town meeting is cool holiday vacation but i don't know i just i don't know if we need to have a discussion maybe it's just too early to have that discussion so which one is it in new to the feb eighteenth will there's two things it's a holiday and it's two weeks before a town meeting we've typically in the past had a meeting much closer to town meeting because we're not always ready but it's actually a typo get a that was approved last year think it