really harm i could say was they say we need to apply for a permit eight weeks in advance but then when i look at the ordinances they don't it's just that forty eight hours for one kind of permit and seventy two they are not regulations they're not promulgated they don't mean a straight of instructions that have changed frequently over the course of this litigation and would change again tomorrow also they're not regulations now they are i'm talking about regulations you know they they have some provisions for bathrooms and and that traffic can have addressed free and traffic and all that sort of thing and if it's only fifteen people that really doesn't and then i thought well the advertisement could just it doesn't require you to take it and you know newspaper or anywhere it just didn't requires you to everything i think needs to promote your event and let me give you some examples from case law and i think that there are several good ones in  past all the time in the city of santa monica his most recent one was that he was going to stay out until ralph nader withdrew from the presidential election and i can assure you that the city would not be able to come up with a shred is the problem if that argument is correct then what we have is the argument in united states versus why should we have a lack of due process because you would have to stand by lation you would have to undergo a prosecution rather  be saying you know you want to because you wouldn't be having an event without a permit and the two completely example about the klan marched in gary indiana although only twenty seven people occurred appeared on one occasion to up being successful beyond your greens you just have to have your organizers go around and tell people please leave we're going to get in trouble please leave because leave and it's a whole lot easier to get your permit well just kind of it's not a whole lot easier let me explain why first of all you set a base pursuing the city or not well you know that's not what it says it says you have to defend the city whether they have a basis for suing the city or not it's just like the duty to defend an insurance policy your honor i have to defend the city and if require either insurance or an iteration of wish to get it for the organization to require the organization to hold the municipality harm us i think you're right hold that it is a violation my ability under the first amendment for tort liability now everything to do with permits that's about whether an organization can be liable for damages because the time parents that were there we're talking about were much longer and here we're talking about a two day time period i guess the question is that whether in the general recognition that that if and let's say for example that vice president cheney is going to speak at the sheraton miramar or the los hotel down the beach in the city of santa monica and i must say all the hotels in santa monica are on the beach there type i read in the paper right here on the news on friday night that cheney's going to be at the hotel on sunday night for a dinner i didn't go down to get a permit because i can only get a permit between eight and fun no matter where i go i whether you're speaking aren't speaking can have more than one hundred fifty people unless you get a permit looks to me like what subsection a is for is even if you have fewer than one hundred fifty you might be able to say block the bay bridge if you're in san francisco with thirty people watch people just line up and hold hands and block the bay bridge big impact on traffic watch people can't make it to work that day has a thirty people so if there is a similar street in this municipality i don't know anything about this municipality  santa barbara to get her santa monica i don't think it even been there but if they have any important street like that five ten twenty people might be enough to block the street so you don't need the one fifty if it's in a park or something it's not on a street or news until the five o'clock news on friday and i can't go and apply for a permit until eight o'clock the next morning and the event is on sunday night after five themselves across the critical roads that would get you to your demonstration prevent you from getting there by blocking traffic they would have a first amendment right to do this without a permit because there was not time to get a use the sidewalk get from one place to another your honor i repeat the republicans are supporters of cheney could block all the sidewalks your honor we're not arguing the demonstrators away your honor we're not arguing that anyone has a right to blab something so that no one can pass only place if the didn't get a permit but they never asked for one they said they need eight weeks to give themselves up and it looks like you can get the permit without any of the limitations that would make it problematic  evidence about who applied and who got turned down there is one declaration from a city official that says well when when pickton are one of our to clarence complain it was really different but the city doesn't explain how it was different and that was one of the instances where the where they demanded a million dollars of insurance to do a protest outside to get on the third street promenade that had no threat to anyone mark nothing whatsoever but that would be an alleyway or a public way that would be covered  in this city they thought that some people may have gotten permits and there's another discussion which we disagree with in terms of an application for a permit for the anniversary of september eleventh but beyond that there is no evidence in this record and even if there were the fact that people got permits in the past because they were willing to submit to conditions and back them can the city council change them and where or do they go through the same process is an ordinance because it seems to me and having difficulty getting my hands around what is the argument here what is wrong  detail the discretion of staff so that they as to how the ordinance will be applied so as an example getting back to the to the other change the order the ministry of instruction gives a f because i am familiar with santa monica i've spent a lot of time in santa monica and there are other venues which are safe for demonstrations and appear to be the beach for wine and you talk about him throughout the i mean i think i feel like we don't we didn't need to add that and so to say well why didn't you put it somewhere else or why don't you allow it somewhere else is assuming that we had we were legally think the supreme court decision in thomas as well as this forest course just isn't in southern oregon causing the real question whether or not as part of a facial challenge which is what we have here we would not have any time limit specified in the ordinance forty eight hours before they want to do the event they won't they could get noticed right before the event occurs but that's we don't have any you know that's that's we don't have any evidence of that that's and normally what people do in fact people want to want to get advance and then if they don't get their permit either help people once they greet their hundred fifty person limit to go home or organize somewhere else or else they could move over to  that we did not and so why is that make to me that makes it seem like your presumption his harvard graduate because if you're going to really be worried about that you would be concerned about the internet  created incredible traffic problems and incredible safety problems and that's that was the genesis of this is the internet might be used it's more difficult when we wanted it to be very narrow if you use the internet then what if the  the applicant or the africans employees or the applicants agents it does not cover damage that's a result of pack hecklers and in fact that type of distinction was noted as being  is appropriate and i think in a way that that gets back to the the reason that insurance provisions have been invalidated in the past because what happens with insurance if you have to go out and if the applicant have to go out and get insurance on the open market the seller of that insurance it's insurance and look at the nature of maine look at the nature of the event to determine what how much insurance they're going to require and therefore you have the controversy or african having to bear the cost of more since the applicants not required to dan a fight against the conduct of third party the concert of controversy or speech is not heard in more than a non controversial is non controversial speech and that's why that in my mind that's why that provision is appropriate and if if your arms are having difficulty understanding what the ordinance requires put yourself in the place of the person who wants to comply with the law looks on the city code and seems that they don't need permits for certain activities or they do need a permit thanks santa monica food not bombs first there santa monica is submitted well recess for ten minutes