poetry that work that we rarely have the opportunity to discuss in a public forum in addition to hearing poetry reading to bombing t v or how poets once about crafting their creations but topics excited and there were your thoughts in foundation and then c t v o r c a new river community access for my public television for their support generosity and we thank you too for coming this evening and supporting poetry as an important part thank you mary jane and tamar it's a pleasure to be here in this beautiful independent bookstore you know they're the lifeblood of our culture and we all need to support them and when you get to come to one that is as charming and as offers such lovely delights as this one then it's a real pleasure to be here i was feel quite honored to have been asked to do this because you know writing is such a solitary art and it's a pleasure to be able to share some of the inside dope of this with people who aren't necessarily practitioners of the art but but for some reason reason enjoy it now so i'm assuming that that there are a number of you here who besides perhaps being my friends a number of you here perhaps write poetry yourself and i hope that there are several of you who do that whether or not you've gotten to the point of wanting to share that with the public  there are all these gradations along the way before you actually get to that point where you really want to have some feedback on your work but i also think that there may just be people who are happy readers of poetry that poetry is for them one of those places that they go to when they want to have some solitude because there's no skimming poetry you have to have some quiet and some time for reflection you have to have some time to let the images and the particular rhythms and sounds of the work explode in your memory and your consciousness you can't just skim it and hope to get what's happening there so today i hope to be able to walk with you through some poems that i have selected as being particularly helpful and illustrative of what goes on how a poet orchestrates what he or she tries to do and  i want to start first before before i move on to the practical aspects of particular poems i want to mention to craft issues that will be in this chosen topic of mine grounding the moment deploying dramatic and thematic cues now deploying is like putting your pieces on the chess board now we don't have a a chess board that you move around like that on in a when you get to a poem you have the vertical space of the page and you start at the beginning i don't know anyone who starts at the end you start at the beginning and you move down the vertical space of that page and as you do that you are being given information along the way and as that information begins to accrue into little patterns that your brain is picking up your ears are picking up then you begin to get a sense of will begin to see what this is all about out now the great teacher and poet vermont poet laureate former poet laureate for vermont ellen bryant  voigt has written this marvelous book called the flexible lyric and i'm using it it's a textbook for anybody who has any aspirations for for writing and i'm so i'm using her particular  aspects of a poem it's raw and more patterns or whatever it is the structure of upon can be thought of as though it were a skeleton and this is and the skeleton is the purposeful order she says this is a quote the purposeful order in which information and materials are released to the reader so every poet as they get a sense of what their poem is about begins to make choices about where is the beginning actually where is where is the complication how am i going to answer those classic questions who where what when and possibly why or are you leaving the why for the reader to answer but this notion of the purposeful order of the release of important information to the reader is is really critical to what i want to talk about in thematic and and dramatic use the other technical aspect that i want to talk about and alert you to is the issue of imagery and i've got in the hand out you'll see both the issue of the structure now you may be color blind and not see colors quite the way i but we in general share this avenue of getting to know the world and ordering our experience are these five senses of ours and poets were very could have been very quick to pick up on the sensory indicators and stimuli to give us a sense of place it might be it might be something that you smell it might be something that you feel and tactically it might be something that you're hearing all of these play a sense of place sense of time of day sense of season all of these things everybody everybody who lives develops these very rich banks of sensory memory all of us since we were first became conscious of of being alive my first memory i think i must have been two and a half or three years old and i remember looking down at the ground at my little white shoe tie shoes and having my mother at the tame same time say don't i was about to step on the little flowers that she had in flower bed and so that's my first visual auditory memory i don't know i don't know maybe that had a great influence on my life the  but but these things are all of us have our own banks of memory all of us have those rich places of childhood that we went to i grew up in oklahoma and there were a lot of vacant lots in those days and i and and several of the powers down the block that would we dug a fort in the soil and and it was about four feet down and and we found some old boards because there were a lot of the housing instruction you know it was after the war after world war two and there were a lot of drilling or so you know we hold those things over and we covered it over and we would sit in there or lion and we'd listen to how different the birds sounded you know just when you didn't see them you just heard them around or the way that heat of the light of the oklahoma sun came through the cracks between the boards of the spaces between the boards and cut pictures you know on us as we as we were there playing in the in the in that little ford our little ford so all of us have these banks of memory all of us have these to draw upon and consequently poets count on this because poets use visual imagery sound imagery smell and texture and kinetic energy imagery to stimulate the reader's imagination their imagination that recreates in their own mind when you give your information in the poem that sensory information stimulates in the reader's mind their version of what you're talking about and so the reader begins to participate in the experience that you've begun to describe ok so we're going to look at some imagery obviously imagery is going to be born of those ways in which and the suspense will draw everybody in the fact that the first poem that i'm i'm going to read it aloud and then i'm going to if i may impose upon some of you i would like to have some of you read save for a line bit and then we'll talk about it so i'm going to read it through and then we won't talk we won't make surmises we will just be listening everybody will be absorbing the poem and then bit by bit as together we will begin to unpack this poem and begin to find out how it was that and w dead and there might yet be nothing wrong in how he went and what he said there are no millers anymore was all that she had heard him say and he had lingered at the door so long that it seemed yesterday sick with a fear that had no form she knew that she was there at last and in the mill there was a warm and mealy fragrant of the pat fragrance of the past what else there was would only seem to say again what he had meant and what was hanging from a be would not have heeded where she was and if she thought it followed her she may have reasoned in the dark that one way of the few there were would hide her and would leave no more black water smooth above the we're like starry velvet in the night though ruffled once would soon appear the same as ever to ok now what do you notice anything what or what is that what are the little bits of information the little cues that you are taking from from starting with the first line and just mention anything that you come across as being  announcement and look at what he's done with the tenses that he uses in the poem the miller's wife had waited long so now we have a sense that a considerable  had passed there's been some some though lay some delay the tea was cold someone she was waiting for someone to join her for tea the fire was dead even the fire had gone out and there might yet look at that little yet in the middle of that long line that is like a pivot it might it raises a certain kind of suspense that maybe we'll find out if things could be ok even this foreboding that we're sensing that there's something cold dead and wrong even that is held in suspense at this point carol would you read the next four lines and this is what who do we who we imagine it to be the miller himself her husband there are no millers anymore was all that she had heard him say and he had lingered at the door so long that it seemed yesterday also time past time already gone and so we're getting a real sense of foreboding at this point then look he puts a stanza break in there and look how he uses that that whitespace look how he uses this little sudden turn that the end of the introduction has arrived we have a little space break and then in that second stanza where has she gone where has she gone she's gone to see what's wrong she's gone to see what's kept him sick with a fear that had no form she knew that she was there at last and where is that the mill the mill that has been our title and we're going to find out if there's anything wrong at the mill yes yes  she knew that she was there last and in the mill the familiar mill she must have been in there many many many times right in the mill there was a warm i mean and warm is one of those adjectives  is is very nice is nice it's inviting a mealy fragrance but look at that last word of that line that rhymes with the last previously and past so we're getting at that nail again that time will again of the past would you like to read would you like to read here's here's the here's the right you got it ok that the first four lines of the second stanza yes i know that i'm sorry excuse me that the next four lines the final four lines ye ok i don't know about you but the little hairs on the back of my neck go up and down when when i read that you know it's a it is a he doesn't name it and the  effect of not naming it forces us as the listeners and the readers to imagine it for ourselves to imagine it for our selves now what is there what do you know you say that mary his body his corpse is hanging from the bean and now look he carries this forward with another turn ok that isn't the end of the story and what was hanging from a bean would not have heeded where she was and where she went look at how he uses that indeed the stanza to pull us over and down through the ok now so there is some she has some plan she has that she has a plan as he had a plan and if she thought it followed her did anybody else sort of catch up on that little word in ok so now we know her plan we don't he doesn't have to you know render it he just we just have to know the absolute certainty of what she's going to do and look at how lashley and how beautifully sensuous his description and how and that of that water how how in some ways kind of inviting truly inviting blackwater would soon appear the same as ever to this side whose si see it's a beautifully constructed poem it's so so simple and yet it is a whole mystery it is a whole suspense story in and of itself and when you read the myth you know titles are obviously the first information the first thing that a poet will give you to operate on when we when we first come to the poem we don't know where it's going to take us we're just open to it you know we're sort of curious no it's not a steel mill in pennsylvania as we discover what's the era of this mill early nineteenth century ye this is a mill and this is why this is where our cue to what the miller said what the issue for him was this was an old fashioned water turned over and wiped out as they are cyclical in you know in all kinds of countries in all kinds of circumstances so we get the cut after after we sort of get the sense from our own experience of history in time that this mill is and is set in an era and at a time when this work is being eliminated this living is being wiped out then we begin to understand some of the larger ramifications of the poem so we can then talk then we could talk about what what are the meanings of the poem but i think the meanings of the poem are very much just the experience of that line by line and and stands up and quatrain sort of four lines by four lines we come to experience both what the wife experiences and then and then what we as human beings as the curious bystanders to this action come to think about what we've experienced ok now i want to turn to the next poem and it's called nantucket it's by william carlos williams tamar would you ok well we're in northern new england where new englanders we know what nantucket is what is an antec it's an island ok it's an island it's a it's a summer vacation place and this this a verbal clause of an adverbial phrase this poem works by something that poets call para taxes and that's a big fancy greek word you don't need to know that but it means that as it's a way of putting information down on the page just in a collage fashion setting one detail next set next to another detail next to another detail and and but what emerges here is also a little plot first we get the a little bit of ambiguity flowers through the window lavender and yellow changed by white curtains now i'm thinking as a reader i'm trying to get oriented to the to the action at hand and i'm thinking when am i outside looking in and thinking that maybe this would be a nice place to stay for the weekend or something like that or what happens in the next mine smell of cleanliness where do we know we are now we're inside that room we're inside this place we have we have experienced a sensory fact that happening that can only be done if you're inside that room so now we're oriented in a way we hadn't been before sunshine of late afternoon coming in and you've all been in a room where you see sunshine coming in through white gauzy curtains it's a really nice summary feeling on the glass tray a glass pitcher something's been laid out some some some glass of well you know a pitcher of water to drink the tumbler which is a glass has not yet been turned over this room is ready for guests and the reader so far is the only one in the room right conceivably or whoever it is that is the narrator of this who is telling us this the tumbler turned down by which a key is lying now a key is lying there that means that it might somebody has come into the room somebody is going to be using this room they've gotten it from the front desk and they've put it on this table and it's lying there and maybe the door is locked from the inside for some privacy who know but are summarises are working right by which a key is lying dash and this sets us up for exactly what we might imagine little poem is a tryst about a tryst there's going to be a tryst why would you in for size immaculate white bed if you weren't expecting something else to happen ok all right so i wanted to work those two poems beside each other and then let you see that there you know there are so many choices that a poet can make to to begin to organize the information and one of the ways that a poet can organize information is by using figures of speech and for for poetry ever since aerosol wrote his ars poetica his he he was the first person to mention that metaphor is really he considered a sign of his genius that metaphor was that part of poetry where someone senses or perceives an inspired likeness between two different things a metaphor is a figure of speech that compares one thing which is called the vehicle the tenor with another thing which is called the vehicle according to a ground which is the thing that they have in common ok and we use metaphor our language is replete with metaphors we have so many metaphors that we have been used over time we even have a whole bunch of dead metaphors you know that they've been used so often that we no longer hear them as metaphors for instance if what is she saying to the kids calm down be quiet get this things are getting much too high and ram banksias here there is too much noise there is too much activity cool happens it was very popular by with with the poetry of john donne over in the metaphysical poets and shakespeare they were so good at making metaphors they were so brilliant at it and the language was so new and fresh that there were so many to make they hadn't none of them and gotten tired yet none of them were were used up yet so i'm good i'm going to use my little metaphor ok and talk about an extended use i'm going to develop it over over lines there's not just one little instance of its use but explored a bit of metaphor i'm cooking my ole self in the oven that splashes and sizzles in the he i look like a circling pig crisp and crackling roasted and bronzy good enough to eat i'm almost done but my husband sad to have me rendered so i cradle him in my arms comforting as a wife can be knowing losses the bride of change and lead must turn to go now first  pig and that's a little shocking i mean you know really you don't want to think of yourself as a suckling pig really very much in deed but that was at a time of where i were i wanted to really just render all the fat out of that old self that that i was tired of and i was going to turn into something better and more essential and that's where the lead in gold comes in at the end and then i was also rather happy with the knowing loss is the bride of change in other words we know no change that's worth its salt can be done without a certain sense of loss about poem is one in which i use the definition of a metaphor and what how a metaphor works where you have one object and you compare it to another object according to a ground that they share or a likeness together now one of the things that are remarkable about metaphors is that it's one of the ways that traditionally philosophy has said that the world could be knitted together that if one thing it can be shown to be in it some way like another thing in another aspect then the relations of all of these things in the world are more are more tangible they are more apparent they are more systemic they are then if i assert an identity of nature among everything that exists which is so long i think magical thinking magical thinking springs from an imagination that works by metaphor this innes of this set against the that innes of that joined in one inspired likeness which appears if it appears like the bouquet from and magicians patently empty hat look inside close as you will and still you'll wonder where those posies came from once i lived deep in the country and drove an old car that had no heat or through a blizzard home by the time i got there my hands were so frozen i could not work the though why i had locked the door in those uncommon parts i couldn't say light and the longing all the human riches of home waited for my entry from the other side behind me snow mounded slowly over the shoulder of my little car obliterated what was left of the frozen road i bent to the law almost we pressing all the weight of my body on the indifference of the door holding my only offering in both hands then like a prayer so that poem words by giving a definition and then an example that you can think on and see if it answers what the mystery is i would just want to call your attention to one one poem where sound values we talked about a little bit of those about the the wrong times that that edward arlington robinson edwin arlington rama's and used at the end of his of his stanzas stanza lined to to emphasize certain thematic values well those little lines behind me starting with that those three lines behind me snow mounded slowly over the shoulder of my little car oh blitter rated what was left of the frozen row what's the recurrent sound in all of those three lines oh oh oh now what is the sound of whoa oh oh oh oh oh oh that is the place of despair in this poem that is when the speaker who's speaking and experiencing this suddenly realizes what the danger is what the what the the prospect might be ok now this is the next poems i also included  i i wanted to to i spent the winter i think a lot of time last winter in this most terrible winter that i ever remember our alone in a dark house pretty dark house i mean i spent every night reading by one lamp right and i had you know that kind of winter that is cold and long i guess the whole month of january never got above freezing and and i was bringing in the wood and i was trying to keep the stoves going and i think i because i i i rather blithely said i really wanted to have i had and i had been away for the winter quite a few times and i said i really want to have another winter i need winter well little did i know that what winter i was signing on for so that was that was of course naturally i gravitated to this particular poem by robert frost one of his great great dark dark poems which looks at the world and man's place in the world  with with out with a kind of merciless although rather sadly expressed calmly expressed notion that you know it's really hard to be alone in the cold and the dark and to be old and old man's winter night all out of doors look darkly in it him through the thin frost almost in separate stars that gathers on the an empty rooms what kept his eyes from giving back to gaze was the lamp tilted near them in his hand what kept him from remembering what it was that brought him to that room with age he stood with barrels round him at a loss and having scared the cellar under him and clumping here he scared it once again and clumping off and scared the outer night which has it sounds familiar like the roar of trees and crack of branches common things but nothing so like beating on a box alight he was to no one but himself where now he sat concerned with he knew what a quiet light and then not even that he consigned to the moon such as she was so late arising to the broken moon as better than the sun in any case for such a charge his snow upon the roof his icicles along the wall to keep and sl the log that shifted with a jolt once in the stove disturbed him and he shifted in eased his heavy breathing but still slept one aged m one man can't keep the house far countryside or if he can it's the us he does it of a winter's night well i'll tell you it was hard to keep going you know when the nights projected this kind of a solitary nurse this single man does his loneliness and then the outer dark and the cold and the winter and on top of all of that his age but the more i thought about the poor and the more i resisted it because i thought well well we you know i know you know i know that this there is life there and besides that we didn't even get to know his name and besides that we didn't know if he had neighbors or friends or a wife or family or anything like that there he was just this solitary arc lonely soul ok and i thought well i'm going to write a poem to rectify that i mean i really did i mean after all who knows i might be the lonely person but i so i thought well ok we're going to i'm going to i'm not going to do night i can't argue with night i can argue with our robert frost who so beautifully told me about that so i decided to to write about morning and if you're like me and most of the people i know you probably have a little morning ceremony each of us you know to start the day off right we either have something that we want to eat particularly that is our custom or we want to we want to get up first and wear our pajamas for just a little bit longer or whatever it is well i decided i thought i knew someone who might have an old man's morning somewhat like this now morning is a happier time so this  doesn't have the bleak look old man's morning there's the first cue that the poet gives you about what this where we are and what we're talking about practiced enough now to have his household motions down willard makes his morning oatmeal with scabby apples wrinkle macintosh's quartered and diced with nuggets of candy ginger measuring the a mound of watered paper sets the fire going with one match before the burn tempers to ruby coals he adds rock maple logs he split by ax that last bad spring then don hat coat gloves and boots over his union suit to walk in the dark beneath the glint of winter stars and collect his morning paper no dog no animals any more just the thinning news and it's obits he reads it all cover to cover twice fourth and back his custom before he eats after oatmeal and dishes he climbs up stairs to dress plaid flannel shirt fail to true's and always the sweater she spun from there shorn she turning it inside out now for and back next day twice the wear for half the work of wall so let me just let me just point out a few of the things that that i worked to to to set forth the the order of disclosure the purposeful ordering of information practiced enough now ok that little now works like that yet in robinson's poem time has passed something in his situation is different from what it had habitually been practiced enough and now to have his household motions down he makes his morning oatmeal scabby apples wrinkled macintoshes quartered and diced and then i thought i want to particularize this man i know this man he's going to put candy ginger in that oatmeal it's going to be a little bit of a surprise we're going to know that he is an individual that he has personal tastes measuring the gas flame so t it boiling over he's a careful man he's thinking about things going wrong he lays the wooden spoon from pot room to handle and then leaves breakfast to make while he stirs and lights the stove he's also an efficient man he gets the cereal started first and then he goes to do the stove so that the cereal will almost be ready by the time he gets back a teepee and then we're going to find out just not only is he careful and efficient but he's also adept it always helps a poet if they're going to be noting some information and using symmetry if you let somebody know how something is done i mean we're starved for this anymore we used to have all those wonderful grade b movies that that used to show how how you know tunnels were dug and how bridges were built and all those things they don't make those anymore you're all stuck in a little cubicle where you're out in front of a computer but look at what he does a teepee of kindling built on a mound of water paper sets the fire going with one match before the burn tempers to ruby coals he adds rock maple logs he split by x and look what in this that stanza information completely out of the blue but much more serious than nuggets  candied ginger that last bad spring and the sound of that last bad spring is a little aural a little sound attention getter that draws attention to that line and that surmise what could he be talking about this must go with that now little bit because i didn't want it to be that dark that was closing in on robert frost's old man the glint of the winter stars can be a beautiful thing and this is morning after all even though it's still dark outside  we learn more about him no dog no animals anymore just the thinning news and it's obits the people who have passed away and we're beginning to make surmises he reads it all cover to cover twice forth and back so he's he's not going to miss anything right he's a careful man he's going to read it this way and then he starts at the back and he reads it back right he's not going to miss any bit of news it's if it's there and then he eats and he goes upstairs to where to dress in that the usual farmer clothes plaid flannel shirt felted trues trousers and always here it is here's what we've been waiting for that little biological bit that fills us in on what he's been doing and always the sweater she spoke from there shorn sheep this is who whom he's missing this is who used to make his own meal this is the one who made the sweater turning it inside out now forth and back why wouldn't he do the same thing with the sweater that he did with the paper next day he wears it inside out one day and right side out the other day so he gets twice the wear for half the work of war so when we go back to the to idle and we think old man's morning there was for us in the rhyme all along that he's been he's lost her a year ago and he's still in that state all by himself but it's not so bleak it's not so bleak i think because he's been made to come alive a little bit now i've added to others to some stories about fathers and men and in the back i've also given you those of you who are interested in trying having a writing prompt a marvelous poem by archibald macleish called eleven which is about a little boy who eleven years old and his favorite place the place that he goes to when he casts to have an escape from the world i don't know how we what are we have enough time to i don't want to read that one a lot i want you all to read it and then i want to just have some time and on the back there's a little poetry prompt if you're interested in writing your own poem about your own special place i wanted to give that to you so i'm i would be happy i  have one poem one more poem of my own that if we have time i'd be happy to read it and then we can answer questions and or entertain questions ok this one you don't have a copy of i'm just going to read it to you because by now you develop all the skills you need to do this right priscilla mo ing she wasn't stupid and you couldn't call or lazy mo ing her own yard after hours of deadheading her flowerbeds for fall having gotten a good way into her seventh decade she tired more easily and was increasingly forgetful that missing tea towel found in the fridge now as when she'd set out to make a life she believed her death would prove amalgam of character and luck she was fairly sure she wouldn't be afraid in fact death's ready presence linta luster to living there was just so much to think and do and now to be sure so many fewer days in which to do it stands a brave new stance she was thinking just these thoughts peering into the middle distance of her own contentment and moaning the scallop edge of her perennial border when she glimpsed the red newly taped handle of the sickle she used to cut back the frost withered clumps of lady's mantle the tool she failed to put away lying on the spinning mower blade saw broken chunks of raw blond would fly out ahead as the blue crescent of steel sprang like a boomerang from beneath a machine lifting toward her so quickly all she had time to do was embrace the iron that so cleanly cut her throat her mouth opened to say something but the more plowed noisily on the head shaving clear through her asters and rue and coming at last rest against the stalks of autumn monkshood whose purple heads nodding above golden leaves had always seemed to her the perfect in to fall day what happened to me is that the wood the wood sprang out the back hit me right here the blade sprang out the front and injured up on a tree bush and i was so appalled by my carelessness i didn't want to tell my husband i mean because there really was a you are the confession has now been made on public television so then of course i had to write a poem about it because it i came this close to write it came this close to having something terrible happen of storytellers i mean that's why i've written a sickly three collections of poetry that are novels and poems and you have to start at the beginning first poem and read it through to the end there's an arc that connects all of those separate poems together so i have sort of that's sort of something that comes naturally is telling a poem telling a narrative that's that's pretty easy and then so then the difficulty is exactly where do you start to make it the best and the shortest because you don't want to bore your readers and yet you want to have enough spaciousness to give enough character to make therefore that that particular poem  as i said has the the beginning one the beginning stanza that tells you i was just getting on and you know but you still pretty you know able to launch so on and then the second stanza is that quick narrative the line speed up a little bit and things happen that way now writing a lyric also is a little different because a narrative usually has an arc there's a beginning middle and end and depending upon the length of the you might start with the end and then tell the poem tell the story to show that where the ending is going i mean that would be one way to do it with a lyric poem a lyric poem is like is more it's like a moment that explodes in time that there's been some emotional consequence something happened emotionally that that that presents as a sudden discovery or a sudden it piffle me about something and so a lyric can have a sense of timelessness about it and all you have to and what you have to do then is work very hard to set it up properly so that the reader can then participate in that explosion of meaning that way  sometimes lyrics the lyric poems that i write are are have the my best ones have been given they've just been given to me i my i didn't write them i just was a vehicle for getting them down on the page so i can't really take credit for them but you know you can read someone like louise glick and and she works very hard to shape and form those those lyrics so that you get that the very hard punchline that she's working toward but my mostly what i have to do is take out extraneous things you know and that's where you know robert frost said put your poems in a drawer and don't look amid at him again for six years and then by that time it he had the poem doesn't really tell you it's suggest to you by the language of the imagery and so forth and that's that's the trick you want to tell the story without it just seems like you're telling the story things developing here i know how that works and and that's the art of it i mean that really becomes one of the things that you can a skill that you can hone it certainly is yeah yes so  when i first went back to the top there's there's like a parallel story because it's miller's wife had waited long she's been through this whole story yourself for many years in may be but it's  and it would not follow her or if it did follow her it still wouldn't necessarily yeah wow that was her way out that's interesting thank you for sharing  such changes and i have college age grandchildren and your parents are saying what should people study should they follow their or their passions and what or should they be thinking totally in terms of employment and doing what are seems to be out there for jobs so when you know it seems to me we're going through another yes yes yes and i farm i mean in north carolina my sister and i own a lot of farmland and the farming we have a young man who's doing it by you know this latest  a cultural university methods and he's very eco sensitive and all of that meant his farming with the machines he needed now is very different from the farming my sister and i knew as we were growing up and so some of those things that are still being done have undergone such changes and what people have to know and so and we know of people who've been displaced by joan who you know what they've always done is no longer need to happen so i thought of those things yes yes absolutely that's that's what the poem invites talk about driving the piece of the changed but of course in this case miller's wife was the rock yeah everything is changed when it's all comes back to ye and maybe the world will too after the humans are gong that i don't know if we need to do something if we want to save it but of course nothing will be saved you know we don't we don't really want to go back to eighteen you know thirty or whatever it is i think we want to make somehow make this time better ok any more questions or comments thank you all thank you for