your objection is not to the concept of a restart of justice generally but to the imposition of that particular condition in this case the condition was based on another solicited letter submitted by a member of the community who was some form of a range of potential restored of justice activities the st step in the you now to this court set out reason is to determine what is the condition actually me the author of the letter set out a few of the restart of just the sentencing options available and that's how he phrased it he noted the possibility of a listening circle conducted by religions or community organizations a sentencing circle by which two parties voluntarily engage in a process through which they come up with an appropriate sentence or community service then ranking mentioned several organizations that in the community service could be his ministry therefore we get to resettle refugees is willing to seems like maybe there are such objections but you don't seem to be pressing it appealing do you think there are st amendment problems with requiring this kind of a program well i certainly think there could be but that's not i think t when he would finish would that mean would permit but i certainly agree that it's whether the person who runs the program or probation were to decide that that were one of the activities that you were required to do yes i do think that could be what jack what who so it says the following are restored of justice and options and then you suggest that the district court might adopt one of those options within the district court requires something called the partners of restored of initiatives just  i believe the founder of the organization and he basically after hearing it about it in the media wrote a letter to the court saying look this is who we are and we could offer some of these some some of these activities he never intended it to be circle is it looks like everybody gets together to arrive at a consensus of what the sentence should be but the district court already imposed sentences your understanding that is required to go into a citizen circle to determine some further sentence that would happen with a sentence in circles certainly an excellent question and comes back to the fundamental issue which is that we don't know what would be required but yes i do think that the definition st what would be your object your what your client wrote to a member of communicated to a member of congress a member of congress that quote somebody ought to put a bullet in her  objecting to well for extra the program i think that's a very clear distinction between what the actually sentencing guidelines specifically set out as potential sentences potential sentencing  conditions conditions of supervision being mental health treatment or chemical dependency or sex offender treatment those are all there exactly and the guidelines actually say that these programs must be approved by the united states prevention relationship with any sort of justice programs as they do in at least a couple of other districts and in the country but there is there is not that i think this was about your district this is just let's say that we its position of this special condition do something else or what we're options right i would submit certainly certainly your honor we wouldn't you know object to some form of alternative relief but i think under these circumstances it would be difficult to cra and appropriately and appropriate special conditions for two primary reasons one is that as i've mentioned restarted justice is designed to be a voluntary and as i understand it alternative to carson kressley ration and that it would be as a mandatory addition to incarceration and it would in this case be counterproductive to the goals of rehabilitation and deterrent for example but also because there is no existing relationship or programs in this district these programs are designed to be alternatives to incarceration and they're designed to be found kerry and neither well ramsey or the judge or you think out of the box at least think are at the at the outer edges of what will help people who are in the criminal justice court of the criminal justice system absolutely i agree with that your honor and i would totally support a program such as they have in the district of massachusetts where individuals post lee and priest that means engage in a very structured program that involves restarted justice and then can present that to to the court as perhaps  year and the day guidelines agreed upon by the court were determined by the court were a minimum of eighteen months so i would get sick disagree somewhat in the notion that this was a well below guideline primary factors relating to that would be that it would be something that a person voluntarily engaged in and then could present as a potential alternative to incarceration to limit your right let me just let me just i don't know right but you know you could say you just think it is the reason you're not doing that because you don't know exactly what it would what it requires and if it required some things that are mentioned in this letter there might be a person a problem you just at this stage don't know because it's too big to determine what's being required yet that's accurate your honor in in my letter to the court initially i did i i believe what i said was putting aside for a moment the potential st amendment challenges and that is because at facility and engage in worship services or something you would have a st amendment challenge at that point we just know that that's what would be required because it's one of the things that is mentioned as a potential as a potential component of the sentence in the letter of options  consistently held the district court has wide discretion when it comes to crafting actual conditions of supervised release here are the two challenges which mr  actually there are actually three challenges one is whether or not there is a sufficient relationship to the offense with respect to the goals of the special condition of supervised release and that the government has asserted the  was particularly concerned with the fact that congresswoman omar was in essence target that because of her religion and bow and they not had the you know the threat according to himself were supposed to be more political as opposed to religious so the use of the word radical muslims muslim brotherhood was of such concern to the district court felt it necessary to impose a condition of supervised release that would require mr carlin the park to participate in the listening circle to speak with different muslims and to be educated in terms of muslim tradition court has upheld conditions imposing just their requirement that someone participate either in a sense offense a treatment program or a drug treatment as opposed to every week for the remainder of the term of your honor the reality is that's a detail like for example let's say judge treacy impose the condition that  you participate in a restored of justice program period and probation will administer the details of the program period that probation could pick whatever program that it has a relationship to sometimes the court might say you have to participate in the program but i don't even know what the partners are sort of just finishing this program is sort of all we have on the record is this letter the letter says i'm the founder partners are sort of initiatives treatment program i could i could look into what that program requires but there's nothing here in the record that even explains what this program is like your honor what i'm trying to say in the question is whether or not the program there's just an organization called partners in restorative initiatives that does some things here and there but they have not established something called a sort of justice program and the district court says you must participate in something called the restored justice program w will be required who's going to decide how many listen circles are required it well to the extent that you know it's not as if there isn't an opportunity for a modification of a supervised release and any of that let's say he starts participating and we see this also for all these other programs you know where they saying you know what this is too onerous can we modify the conditions where i get upset in the sentencing circle or i've already packed i've gone and i've spoken with the program of the program that  we'll find out what it is when he starts doing it and then you should ask for a modification but if we don't even know what it is at the beginning i mean sometimes we do a lot of hard conditions moving into a risk that if we can't even tell isn't that a problem but that but that's one of the things that the special conditions specifically called out is since in circle in the richmond circle i read the letter it says the sentencing circle it's purpose is for everybody who participates to arrive at a consensus of what the sentence should be so is he being required to participate in the citizen circle that will determine some further sentence that he'll have to serve i i  to suggest that he's going to go to this organization interested in the citizen circle that's going to develop some additional sentence that he'll have to serve so that at least something that calls for clarification that i i you just mentioned relating to the sentencing circle for a baby for other reasons this is a what do you suggest we do well i guess that's my concern is saying like it in under these circumstances  charged with administering the program and i guess that's why i have a disconnect with the any vagueness challenge because of the fact that like i said you know we have always upheld  supervised release in which we said you know probation can chew and then the details of which are left to probation and there have been challenges in the past recently over the last two asked well no i don't know what the details are i don't know what my person is going to be required to do in drug offense treatment saxophones treatment eccentric cetera therefore these conditions are b here we have something completely different we have an exact provider and two i guess mechanisms in terms of or two events activities in which specifically this guy is supposed to participate in and that's it you know so it's it's hard for me to to try and articulate what i don't understand how he went when just a court said just go to find an address the issue was what does mr kearney you know do when he gets there and i think it would go well beyond the supervisor the details of the program for it for example the program offers possible community service i'm not aware of this qui ever approving of a condition that just said do some community service as opposed to a specific number of hours and then as to the comparison to the other programs like sex offender programs or drug and alcohol programs the corporation is required in fact they are specifically trained how to determine whether a program week certain criteria is licensed by by an association like the association for the treatment of sexual abuse or the office of addiction services and support or the new york state education department which issues professional license for mental mental health treatment providers none of those guardrails exist in this type of program a sentence as opposed to being supplementary and so there's no way to fix it is that what we should we should do so i think i am saying in the context of this case or even as the author of the letter indicated that he felt that it would be counterproductive it were imposed as a mandatory addition to incarceration and and the other reason would be that i don't think that the parameters of the licensing the credentialing structure exists at least in this district for that type of program that could be a requirement on remand to do a licensed program or suppose yes yes your honor certainly that probation could look into whether that's the thing that the point frankly we just don't know that could be part of the partition or