extent to which the facility can be identified as school st is the extent to which you can be identified as a hospital or other medical facility just tell me what the record is schizophrenia he had other disabilities oppositional defiant you know we know all about that i think the case really turns on whether he's getting medical care with a little schooling or whether he's going with special school with some supporting medical care and that's why i asked the question now and we i agree with that judge that when he went down there he had been on the streets we know that he was look we know all the background and could you try to help me well my  school with supporting medical services or medical facility with supporting educational services he was under the care of a psychiatry swaim went down there when he went down there he was not under medication they placed him under medication when he when i referred to stabilization during the st six weeks that educational program if anything was on kind of a haphazard basis depending if the clear emphasis was on his medical condition he was given you know they'd line up a give medication after that initial period it wasn't his day mostly school classes with only therapy for a short time at the end of the school day the question is when do you have to make that determination and what is the time when you make that to terminat unilateral placement it's our position that without medical intervention at that point no educational program was going to be effective you'll see that going back to doctor to shop it's report this she thought felt at that time  needed to be admitted to western state hospital which is a residential psychiatric hospital in the state of washington where he was picked up off the street and he was taken as a children's orthopedic hospital they said that what he needed was a residential mental health facility that would deal with this substance abuse as well when he went down there they locked him up put him in stabilization under the care of a psychiatrist and indeed they found that there was a medical emergency or that it was medically mandated that he be their educational program you know this was a student who did well you know in school up through th grade that he for example performed at the top ten percent of his class in mathematics as they were training and not start until after that it did and that's the point is we are capable of providing an educational program that as he you know at the end of his th grade year he started having significant at that point well this is when it started in that summer when things broke down at home you know we believe the schizophrenia was part of the cause and i think that doctor because that referred to it as the perfect storm program a means early basically  were beginning schizophrenia it's a disease typically people get full blown schizophrenia can lead to adolescence or early adulthood crocked and so i understand that and i believe that to be true that summer he goes to the juvenile court and they get an at risk youth petition the district not involved this and all about it he comes back in th grade and as a student we've had significant success with if you look at is like a th grader can go very well right know that's true but it is a special ed program was all regular classes with seventy five dollars minutes per week of special ed and social skills and then in th grade where it really breaks down is he in again as he starts going into the girls restroom so he's get the short term suspension in january right at the start of january he comes back for a one day brings a weapon to school sling shot colored wrist rocket with ball bearings and so falls january the parents advise us he's getting a comprehensive medical health evaluation the problem is you know when we set up so you know he goes in and because it was reported law enforcement he was in an educational program that was provided by every school district has he's in the juvenile facility or the forty five dollars day suspension he was only at home he's either on the street or in the juvenile facility all but seven days of it i thought i thought the critical  meeting for the individualized educational plan the parents weren't there and according to the findings of fact they weren't invited but the question judge is the point is his medical condition was so overwhelming that there nothing we could do he came we i think everybody i mean the school even know that the district didn't really do anything to evaluate him you never valuated him to this to come up with a new i e p the parents when he was suspended then the parents came to where when once he was suspended they asked if he extensively get the report we got the report there was kind of agreement that we try him and scriber which is a smaller school he shows up from one day and then he's gone and then he's on the street  he's in juvenile facility before a juvenile judge you know when you say you say well we could write pirate notices we can write an ip our view is his mental health condition at that point was he was totally out of control his parents could not get him to come to school he they could not get him to stay home he's on the streets in seattle and so when it comes around to the following fall you know we agree there's no question our mind that in fact that you know when he goes he's picked up at the end of september there's an october rd report from children's source that pick a hospital saying he needs residential placement for mental health reasons as well as substance abuse when he goes down to answer your question they don't just start i'm in at right provo utah where in the record is this instruction that he needs to be in a medical facility if he was picked up by the juvenile by law enforcement and he had a an infected they took him to child orthopedic hospital there's a report that comes from them dated october october rd it's his discharge report and they say they that he needed to be in a residential mental health facility or no where in the record that is i just don't recall that approach that you're taking here seems it seems to me that your suggestion is that because the child might need significant  treatment as well as education in a residential facility that that disqualifies them from reimbursement for that facility would in fact most of the including cases from your own district that you represent most of these circumstances where children are required to be placed in a residential facility are cases where they have been acting out i mean you don't have to have schizophrenia there have been many many cases reported where children with severe autism will act violently toward parents and others be a danger to themselves they have to go there and receive extensive treatment get stabilized and then they go into their education program i'm a little concerned that the approach that you're taking is so shot gun that it would in effect almost know if the provisions of the act for those children who have severe mental health impacts and  s have to go to any residential school that will provide them with treatment so that they can get the education that they're entitle to that their friends here and that i point out here he was was not receiving medical care when the letter that they they don't send you know that the having handled these cases on both sides both from a district court perspective which is where i usually sit and then by designation the cases that i have seen where children are referred because you know that that the mandate of the law is that they're to be mainstreamed as much as possible right absolutely you would agree with that right restrictive environ the least restrictive environment well when you get to the point where even the school district in many cases this child has to go into a residential treatment facility there is already a child who is completely generally completely unable to function in the classroom such that they don't disrupt the whole school is violent or acts out in other ways i mean we had i had a case once where the child was throwing his own death occasion it and people so i mean he needed to be stabilized and he was stabilized and  absolutely if the primary care if the primary reason for the kid to be in a in a hospital you put him in a psychiatric hospital and that's where he stays of course he can't get i d e a but if you if you put the child into a facility where the primary reason is education and we're going to stabilize them so we can get that education clovis developed the standard and i agree it's a psychiatric hospital take a look at ashley cases and neither was a psychiatric hospital or his place one of them was in utah which was very similar to this person is they develop the test it's a three prong test and again in those states they said was a primary reason for medical or educational in there are some placements for children in medical facilities where they just get a little bit of enrichment so that they don't forget how to read or something like that they just get an hour or two and there are some long term placements where the kids basically are in a school that happens to have a full time school nurse and they just have to go to the nurse's office one or once or twice a day to treat their as diabetes or something in this one it's closer to the st and not the nd however it looked to me like the schedule with this one was a full school day just as many hours of classes as you'd get if my point is old before he got there when you say he was he came down with my question i know you're having trouble with this and i don't know why my question right now is does he have a full school day about as many hours of classroom instruction on this facility also you have to get in the high school alternately i get think the answer is you know and hours he did by point when he went down there he was under the care of a psychiatry list who provided medica do follow up on my friend judge kleinfeld question your concern appears to be in your position that if the child goes into a residential facility and is unable to admit immediately go right into the educational program without any medical intervention at all then that child is disqualified  didn't say that well what i mean when i think i do work elsewhere or they get medical and they get medical intervention at some point if that successful there should be an ip and that's a do there should be a meeting and then there should be a placement and you look at least restrictive here when they took him down there there's no question he needed medical intervention at the start that was the reason for sending him that there was a reason for locking him up at some point you are correct in saying maybe the emphasis was more on education but when you determin unilateral placement you don't wait you have to determine it at the time they're sent whether or not it's for medical reasons or not that's what clover says that's what the two actually saying that everything depends on when he sent as opposed to what happens when he's there when he was what happens at the facility if to restabilize if you think the determinative factor is whether the reason he was sent to the facility in the st place was entirely disease related judge i think you have to make that determination at the time of admission when the district makes is to say that for medical reasons or nah it's just like if you go into a hospital  hospital for physical things we're not responsible for that you might not be able to the point where as you get better we provide services the same with mental health i mean look went down that let me test that against another type of disease and we don't have it so much anymore but it used to be that in alaska a lot of the native children had tuberculosis they would get sent to a native health service hospital they ask a native health service hospital and before anything else could happen the tuberculosis had to be treated and stabilised and then once it was they go to school at the hospital because they still couldn't be sympathetic to their village i agree is that school or is it  purely a medical treatment that doesn't get reimbursed at the time they were sent it was because of the tuberculosis and nothing else but what they did when they were there often for a few years was go to school see that's a good analogy judge when they were in the hospital that this trix not responsible for that cost similar to what i refer to as stabilization with a psychiatrist or at least that is so where you really just arguing that you shouldn't have to pay for the st six weeks he was there at all once he's there that they kept or they made the choice they excluded there should the very likely could have been i p meeting at that point to see what you know what is the least restrictive environment did he really need to be locked up we were precluded from doing that and you know that's the question performing real well it on their classes at the time of the hearing and we said well when do we get it back what's the what's the criteria and i said no that's not the criteria look at what the judge ruled he said we educators didn't get the make the decision of how long he was attorney from my firm who also worked in this case i'm going to try to address some of the court's concerns initially and forgo some of the speech that i had written and just go straight to what you seem interested in first of all the district did not really question the relationship between between eighty's medical and educational needs until the parents requested residential placement is he had always been a behavior intervention plans he had always received special education or behavioral issues from preschool he had always had behavior intervention all the case involving the closest would you like me to answer the question concerning the distinction between the closest imaginary placement writing the decision and now you came to the part of the decision where you had to explain why this the student was there for about four dollars to six dollars weeks and the record will show that that unit at provo canyon is a unit incoming students are standardly put in so he went to that program not because he was out of control behaviorally at a level where he needed in patient hospitalization it wouldn't qualify as an inpatient hospitalization that particular unit probe out of talk about that in a minute but they went there just as a matter retain students with their there's some evidence in the record in your foetus that he may have gone back in february because in fact but it's unclear in judgements or the administrative law judge found it was not necessary to her decision because sometimes students will be sent back there from to the stabilization unit if they need additional assistance the stabilisation unit itself provides one dollar to one dollar academic instruction so it's more intensive academic instruction and it does include enhanced they'll pick services  so the placement at provo canyon differs from the king's hospital placement columbus in a number of significant respects that were identified st of all clovis talked about the length of time the student spends in school or whether school time is just secondary to therapeutic needs and in clover specifically at king's the hospital the student was spending i believe six hours in therapies and only a couple of hours i think to a day like that in  additionally the club's court looked at the credit a few was accredited at the hospital i believe that's the way the court put it and paula kenyon is accredited as the school additionally the clubs in the record the record is doctors physicians there was a staff of physicians and physicians a control of the students program at provo canyon a cheese program was determined by a treatment team and the treatment team  basically came from three different part of the four different departments of the school the student life department which which basically worked they worked with students on weekends and in the evenings in the dorms the clinical department those were the therapist who provided there peter the student the educational department goes where the teachers and the medical department so they were essentially four different departments there you know let me ask me i ask you very quick question that's one thing that i think if anything cuts against your argument as i looked at the record here the one thing that appears to is the way in which the administrative law judge felt it necessary to  control have control over his continued placement there so instead of educators being involved it was a doctor that you know generally if you're going to a hospital or a psychiatric hospital it's a doctor that is going to a doctor or a team of doctors is going to certify when you are capable of being discharged it almost appears that that is the manner in which the administrative law judge originally set this up which was later affirmed by the district court that this doctor had the own timid say so as to how long and that's the complaint from the school district is that they were kind of cut out of the process and so it wasn't an was testimony hearing that the student might be eligible at some point during the duration of his stay at provo for a step down residential placement a less restrictive residential placement or even possibly depending on his progress to come home but they said he would have to have a very strict outpatient type of placement so i think services outpatient services so i think what the court as i understand what the court order the court ordered for one year only which is the duration of  me individuals who would be there would be a the staff who were educating the student and good to those rules who were knowledgeable about the student's disabilities and their implications educate their educational implications i would call that a check for example school psychologist after members of aa and they conduct the evaluations so i think in many ways the court was trying to replicate and i came under the law and i have cites to this in my brief under the law the court would not have been permitted to delegate the decision to the school district i mean the school district complains that it was not the control was rested from that but that's kind of inherent in any situation where administrative court issues an order overriding a school district determination so i think go ahead let's let's assume for the moment that  has and a psychologist are both medical professionals ok because you what you're arguing to me makes no sense in the sense that if you go to a large clinic or hospital and you have problems with your eyes they're going to have optometrist working there as well as ophthalmologist ophthalmologist or m d s optometrist or not but they're both medical professionals if you can if you can prescribe medication and you're working on somebodies mental health how can you say they're not a medical professional but let's assume that that psychiatry psychologist here is a medical professional all right then then make that argument how does that argument work then stability in the student program if he was ready to move to a less restrictive environment and i think that if you look at the record the only one the visual who had evaluated this student since j the only individual who had evaluated the student only about a ration that had occurred was dr chap and so i think for that reason the court was choosing her to make a final decision over that one year period only that i district appeal because as soon as the district appeals it's the stay put provisions and not the provision in the order anyway that determines where he stays that's correct actually how long is that time between when the rule then when the district appealed the decision it must have been your honor you actually had to be within ninety days it must have only been two months or something i had to be with your three month in ninety days so it doesn't seem like there was any i mean no one tried to say he could move in those those ninety days anyway i'm confused about how this issue matters i wonder if you could speak well i don't think it does i mean i you know st of all as i just indicated to judge for th student left provo canyon and came back to the greater seattle area in july of two thousand and seventeen the district did not offer any additional evidence that hearing that it evaluated it could have didn't attempt to get in attempt to evaluate the student during that time period that it came up with some other suggestion about where the student would go that the student moved to a different less restrictive placement and that essentially it was precluded from having hour here is because even though the individual primary purpose might be to get an education he didn't want the child remanded back to the school unless they were assured that the child would be vile and would act in some way that was detrimental to the school and or to himself with all due respect i don't agree with that i think the l j and of course we're trying to understand what they all taste motives were but i believe the a l j wanted to make sure that the student these were frankly low in lower income parents and i think the l j and administrate legal proceedings are expensive and i think the l j for the when you're duration of her well i was trying to make sure that the students educational needs as they're defined in their i d s academic and functional were taken care going and being in a secure facility and we believe it's medical not educational he was successful in the program that he was and it was a minimal special education program there's a once they make the decision to place a student there the parent has a right to do that the question is whether we pay that and whether we pay at the terms at the time he is admitted what was the primary purpose for it was it medical that's bothering you bet that i  understand your focus on that let's suppose you have a kid who's in and out of a diabetic coma so he's sent to a facility and they stabilize his diabetes with proper doses of insulin and determining exactly how much he needs no question he was sent there because of an entirely medical and not an educational reason but let's say once they stabilize them they think well this kid's diabetes is too unstable he has to stay here for a while so they plan a full days school day for him and all the rest of the time that he's there which is a long time he's going to school and just going to the school nurse and getting is insulin shots it strikes me that that's analogous here and it makes a clear distinction between why the kid was sent there which was medical and why the kid is there for the remaining time which is primarily educational with just a little medical support just like oh no school nurse in a public school but the question is for how long and i think you have to make the determination of the outset absolute right for continuation of education in the public school district it's truly incredible when we take a student and transport him in a secure transfer to utah to educate him and say they have to educate and you know in reference to your saying is there an educational program at western state hospital i can tell you it's a psychiatric resident hospital and they have a program that you know educational programs that you know a full day program that doesn't mean that the district has to pay for