hi everybody i'm ed baker and welcome to our ark is the addiction recovery channel deduction recovery channel is dedicated to bringing information to the general public information that's to kelly is the spokeswoman for governor scott's office this quote is regarding sarah's appointment which was just about exactly one year ago miss kelly says sarah demonstrated strong character and a commitment to public service and justice that made the governor exceedingly confident in her ability to serve the people of chittenden county and to be a steadfast advocate for the rights of for you is basically what has this first year been like for you what has been your experience and what shaped your initiative is heading into your second year so before i became appointed i was a prosecutor in the same office so t j donovan was my boss and i was there for about six and a half years before i was appointed as the state's attorney so in terms of the everyday office experience it hasn't changed a whole lot other than being in court a little less and being kind of out in the community a lot more but i've been trying since day one really to shape my priorities a state's attorney and then find ways within the community and within the courthouse to really implement those goals and focus on those priorities are right can you you know for me would you maybe  choose one of your top priorities going forward yeah i mean the clear one for me is that opioid crisis that's definitely been something that's been very important to me and one of the reasons obviously that i'm here  enforcement is a big priority for me supporting our law enforcement and you know it may seem like a small thing but i'm doing everything i can to really highly all of the positive things that our law enforcement is doing in this community because i feel like we're in a day and age where all of their negatives are really being exploited and their positives are and i see the positives every day so i'm working on that as well and my office my office is a priority my deputies making sure that they're paid what they should be to the extent i have that ability and making sure that they're getting what they need for resources absolutely along the lines of the law enforcement i have gotten that are contributing to the opioid crisis in vermont you have t j donovan you have brandon del pozo you have many many people on almost vertical learning curve certainly mor weinberger people every day facing death you know the crime related to the opioid epidemic and struggling every day for for solutions so i would i would join you in that we're very very fortunate to have the leaders that we have in vermont the governor certainly with his opioid commission in the like claire heading up you know what appears to be an overarching very dedicated push to do something about this issue what is it that's risen to the surface in your awareness in your in your daily practice clear to me and it's frankly one of the reasons i became a prosecutor because a you know i wanted to be a defense attorney for the longest time and then kind of realize that as a prosecutor you can do a lot more good in in the actual system if you're the one with that you know power for lack of a better word but personally my experience has been kind of sculpted by the fact that we as state's attorneys and as d respond to every untimely death in the in the county i went to a lot of people don't realize and so when i first fresh out of law school of thought i'd be in court every day i had no idea i'd be going to to the scenes of  people who have just died and i thought that that would probably be elderly individuals who were dying in their sleep but what it ended up being was a overwhelming amount of suicides that i didn't expect in an overwhelming amount of overdose fatalities and you know as a young prosecutor fresh out of law school at three in the morning going to the home and telling a family that you know you're sorry for their los it just really struck me as like what what is happening why why is this happening all the time when we're responding to scenes like that every week for young people older people people with full time jobs people with good families and good relationships and people with no homes and no families and no relationships it just it occurred to me that this was a serious issue that is not it wasn't from my perspective being talked about  i hear you and that resonates deeply with me that this is a disease we call it an addiction but it is very much a bra disease it's not a choice people don't develop it on purpose it develops in the simply and it can develop in anyone now i think the statistics for two thousand and sixteen were one hundred  six deaths pacifically attributable to opioid overdose but we do believe that it's more than that is that your impression absolutely i'm sure that it's more than that and we don't have the officials to shell numbers out for seventeen but my understanding is that it will be around one hundred thirty five but even that i don't believe is is the fall amount i think that we're missing a lot of people that not only do i just believe that they maybe died from endocarditis for example but they're really dying due to their their substance use disorder and even more so people that maybe are dying in communities the upper valley or i'm from who are dying in new hampshire because they're dying at dartmouth hitchcock torah or they're dying in little littleton when from st john's very all of those numbers are being counted in our vermont numbers because they're not dying here but there are there are people there are there vermonters and so i think the numbers are higher than when we are seen as very very hard to track with accuracy the number of fatalities and when you add but so you have four hundred thirteen people overdosing on opioids who where the overdose is reversed without no locks on the feds how that is would be more markedly higher so it's interesting you know we have the locks on we have hub and spoke we have safe needle exchanges we have a lot of activities or vermont that are very progressive to deal with the opioid crisis but as the same time as you're noting the fatality rate is increasing so what's next what what do we do next well i think we have a lot to do i think that we need more that's a courageous dialogue to open in vermont it is i think most of the people that i know over the course of the last two decades methadone treatment in medication it simply wasn't a replacement safe needle exchange is another issue and now we have safe injection facilities or there's lots of names for it but what is it what is it i know you've researched this fully i just would like to give you the opportunity to open the style log a little for the to talk a little bit about it what is it about safe injection facilities that you find works in terms of saving lives well the one thing i would say to start is that there's about you know this is a new idea in vermont  somewhat of a new idea in the u s but it's a very old idea and they've been they have been implemented in other countries there's over one hundred of them worldwide for over thirty years  so the idea is actually very simple it's just a space where people who are actively injecting heroin or other really any unsafe practice in drug use can go and use their drugs with clean and sterile product in a clean space have the ability even to clean you know such a small thing as cleaning their arm before  wherever they're injecting before injecting that some of these individuals just don't even have access to that most basic need and they're supervised while they do it so that if they do overdose somebody is there to help them medically they then have a kind of safe space after to you know chill out bizzle what a lot of them are called the chill out zone and even more important if one of those many times they go to use the facility they find themselves at a place where they're ready for further help for treatment or whatever that might mean for them to get into recovery that is also there that service is there that resources there and you know for me the important part of it is that we're not getting to everybody right now and they might not be at a place where they're ready for that service or resource but that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about them or we shouldn't be making sure they're alive in the meantime until they are you know the the kind of quote of you know you dead people can't  recover and that's what i feel like save consumption sites do there's like i said over one hundred worldwide and there has never been a single death never been a single day not one single fatality in any of the sites worldwide well found that ninety percent of the people that use safe recovery and needle exchange said they would be willing to you is a safe injection the so that it now we know now that the majority of people who overdose with the fatality resulting are injecting opioids alone in fact so it seems that the it seems and that a save injection facility as you're saying would prevent every one of those overdoses where someone overdoses because they're alone and there's no one available to administer no locks on do you agree with that i do if if every one of those individuals was using  a facility every one of those lives would in theory be saved the research i think also shows that just to be specific about it thirty four percent of the respondents there were eighty five respondents to the serving correct reported contracting have to tie to say three percent of the survey reported contracting h make between the value of harm reduction and the value of use reduction most people value use reduction right the number of people injecting heroin or opi for decrease harm reduction is something different the number of people in just injecting opioids can remain exactly the same but the harm associated with the injection is decreased would you like to talk about that for a minute yeah i mean i i absolutely agree i think that those two things too often get seen as the same and i think a lot of the reason that people initially may have a visceral reaction to the idea of safe consumption sites and to be honest i did too before i did any research is that you do have this idea that if you really want to help you'll get more people into treatment which i of course agree with that i think we would all love for that to happen and for every person we come into contact with who has substance use disorder we'd get into treatment but it's not realistic you know the and i see that all the time with individuals that are unfortunately also committing crimes but not everybody is at that place and so you need to focus on how you can keep those people alive while they are in that throw of addiction terry trying not to use that word that's something that's getting used to it but substance use disorder in tell they're ready until they're at this place where they can and in the mean time i mean harm reduction literally is reducing the harm to each person while they are actively injecting and absolutely and i think you bring up quite a few very important points this idea of brain addiction or substance use disorder i think that the general public sometimes really doesn't understand exactly what it means so you have people that are injecting a dru i have never met anyone and it was a therapist for thirty years dealing with this population i've never met anyone who began using drugs by injecting them in the disease itself pushes the person toward injection if they're opioids because injection is the most efficient way to deliver the drug molecules to the receptor is in the brain made by way of the blood it's just simply efficient and people are driven to the desperation of injecting drugs by the disease itself they overcome their sensibility toward what's safe and what's not safe because of the desperation of needing to self administer the drugs it's a symptom of the disease it's a symptom of the diseased mind it's not a choice i have you haven't met anyone that wasn't afraid of needles how many i've never met anybody i mean will go for flu shots and they can why who wants to inject a drug no one but it's the desperation of the disease that pushes people toward that i i i really appreciate your compassion for this particular population what do you when you when you look at the mover monitor is a wonderful no vermonter wants to abandon another vermonter but again this is a stretch this is a very very hard thing for the general public to get their mind around what do you what do you see is you know facing your advocacy for this in the future what do you see as obstacles moving forward or more better than obstacles areas where the general public would need to be educated and i think that the first the education needs to come in what these facilities are actually for and the the real truth behind harm reduction and the idea that even if harm reduction is our goal there is a lot of research that these facilities get more people into recovery so that is still happening but in the meantime getting over this idea that we're enabling drugs or jug use and when in fact we're enabling safe use and we're people to stay alive but beyond that i think that the real education needs to come in the reality of resources being spent because you know i've i've had a lot of people say i don't think our tax money should be going towards this or we have limited resources and so we should be spending it on prevention or education or treatment or you know like like we have to do one or the other when from my perspective i don't think most people in vermont realize how much money we're already spending on this crisis in ways that they don't think about when not just in incarceration costs which i see are supervision cost because of the crimes some individuals are committing but the medicaid costs for endocarditis and infection blood infections and site infections hiv hepatitis all of these things that we're already spending a lot of money on so it really i understand that we're limit we have limited resources i'm a state employee i know that i'm well aware of how limited our resources are but we need to really be transparent about our resources that we're already spending because i think that most people would be pretty appalled at how much for having to spend on the other end of this crisis and from my perspective mostly in medical costs that we could if we're putting more money into know unsafe use and dirty needles or discarded needles in the park or in public restrooms and putting more into facilities like this and safe recovery in general not just if they had  safe consumption safe but just safer coverage and what they do now putting more riis's resources and places like that we'd actually end up saving money i agree with you and i think this is a long battle going forward that will the duration will be decades generations one of the one of the areas that i think we're beginning to look at is adverse childhood experiences where race is that the  children who are exposed to five or six adverse childhood experiences in their lifetime are forty or fifty times more likely to become addicted to opioids so it will when you look at the resources that we are going to need as a culture as a state as a society to spend really absolutely doing doing something about this that's going to make this a pivotal moment in our history it's staggering really to look at this prevention there's education is treatment there's harm reduction there's recovery support services but now more than than ever before and i think in american history the attention is being paid to do this and where i think we've got traction you have the president's commission on opioids and drug addiction america if you if you read those recommendations  of over fifty recommendations if those recommendations were followed we would really be doing something about this epidemic when you read governor scott's recommendations if those recommendations were followed would really be doing something about this epidemic in america where do you where do you assess going with that where do you see us as far as the funds being allocated going forward to adequately deal with these problems you know that's a good question and this is i think i've said this to you before i like i'm very new to politics and really funding in general is never as a prize a deputy i always was just worried about how much can i get paid more because i was you know i feel like the deputies in the state every deputy state's turning public defenders do not get paid enough money for all the work they do but beyond that i don't really have a lot of concept either  with how much we're spending i really don't know i think that i think that the numbers really need to be shown i know that the medical center is working now on perscribe or numbers i medical center as well as they are starting to give us information on and okara data is costs and so i think before now that those numbers are really starting to show themselves they do think that the resources can be spent the way that they should be in terms of a safe consumption site you know i don't know where we're at with i think that if it was to be done in a place like safe recovery or so much of these services are already being the cost really wouldn't be that high and so if we can really start to figure i'll figure out with or without the legislation just figure out how much would something like this cost and can we project how much we might save by having it i think there's a i think there really is a likelihood for it engine and county all right thank you thank you for your courage and thank you for your your efforts  she closed the web in our was with with an appeal to the general public noting that that this effort well as the only way it can really succeed is if the general public educates itself and becomes as involved as possible from everybody according to their ability people who want to volunteer certainly a an a the volunteer programs out there and regular citizens to just get more involved in this and learn whatever they can do to support these kinds of initiatives i like to give you the opportunity to close the show and  really to make a statement to the general public i mean what do you what's your feeling about the general public's rule and in this you know i wish i could have heard what she said because that's that is something that i try to tell people all the time ever since i announced my support for this legislation you know i've i've gotten a lot of really great feedback from people people that know nothing about safe consumption so it's better just excited to have this really open dialogue and have more conversations like this where maybe the opening of a facility isn't the end result but in the meantime this really great dialogue is happening about substance use disorder and opiate crisis and the reality of it not just people talking about there being a crisis but really delving into it but i would echo that i've also had a lot of people that have e mailed me or called me saying pretty horrible things that have clearly not done any research they have made this opinion about it about safe consumption facilities specifically without doing any research and you know i've i've developed a thick skin in this job and that doesn't it doesn't bother me but i just i just would hope  ask that people do five minutes of research about the topic that they want to have an opinion about before before engaging in a conversation i'm i disagree with people all the time i'm i'm a lawyer you know that's that's what i do but i do my very best to make sure that i know what i'm talking about and have a basis for my opinion before i do it you know i'm in court every day asking a jury to believe my version of an event and that's based on what i think the evidence is or what i think the facts are and so i would just ask the same of anybody else who wants to engage in a conversation about something like this and if you don't do that you know step back from it and just listen to the conversations that are happening before you decide to engage well hopefully your appearance on the show today will help the general public educate themselves and maybe spark of some interest so people can go out there individual and do their own research and of course reach their own conclusion absolutely about something as important as this you know and just an additional just an additional question to you one more opportunity for you is to really what would you say to the person out there with opioid use disorder or heroin use disorder who or any place where they feel safe to talk to somebody talk to a if they have insurance and can talk to a provider about safe practices and if they're not ready for services  or resources or recovery and just know that you know i'm the top prosecutor engine in county and i i would talk to anybody about it i want people to feel i don't want to just say that i you know that i want to support these individuals i truly want to support these individuals and so you know i'm in a public office and if somebody feels like they are ready for that and they don't know how to do it i encourage them to go anywhere they feel safe and if that means coming to my office then they can come to my office and if that means going to the burlington police department which i know might sound in my office and hollerith who is absolutely incredible getting people in the help that they need but but anybody and don't and don't use alone you know if you are injecting use alone use with somebody have narcan available if you have family members make sure they have now are can friends that are around you don't use in your car just sit in traffic and use in safe places with people around you very well said sarah and thank you so much for joining me today yeah absolutely thanks for having me and