question to you is as we think about this six character and sixteen kara your position as i understand it is that sequences appears at the bottom of the collection letter is the creditors the medical providers account number so there were two account numbers on the letter and the one that was exposed in the barcode collectors account number itself is in violation of the plain language just fixing any to say and therefore we ask you this question then i appreciate that  is it your position that both are uniquely associated with your client  number a anyone can call in with your caliber and date of birth or the last four digits of the consumer's social security number to obtain and ask questions about that account but let me ask about that so the naples was clear that its holding was predicated on there being an unencrypted to our code they could use to get someone's account number here we have a situation if to combine it with some private information the last were social not easy to find data birth well you know there are some people who broadcast it out there but for a lot of people i mean this is private identifying information so why should we put it on the same footing as an unencrypted code that leads you directly to an account number security number or with the date of birth right and that's private information so i'm not sure why should we treat it as if it's just the same as giving an account number i do think the date of birth or last  clearly knows the consumers and date of birth they can easily call in a pain information about this account and find out the status of the status of the consumer as a debtor and q r code linked to so really the potential difference at least a funny understand mr sherman's argument is that here there's some testimony in the record that this six digit the six alphanumeric characters are not particularly your to your client there's a chance there's some disposition testimony that could be up to twenty five people right so that's the put the potential distinguishing characteristic between this case and the naples i think that at least creates the speed of fact we do have testimony from the same witness saying contradicting that statement saying that they could use it and  their internal reference number or account number and can in addition to a date of birth or social security number to identify that account it is all an account number is a is a series of numbers or characters that identifies a specific in the bar code you get the extra characters and when you look at those sixteen character who's number one it's unique to your client and number two you can get information because  and if you it does not reveal the sixteen number medical account it does not reveal the original creditor as medical account of or all right but but still your argument is the six alpha numeric characters is particular to your client or at the very least there's a material issue of fact as to whether it is particular to your client that is correct or and if you also look at a cat appendix  debt collectors address and the debt collectors name if the deck like this name does not disclose that it is the debt collection business there is an innocuous information exception but as i understand your argument that doesn't apply here because if you go to the internet and find information that's readily available on the internet like date of birth like the last four digits of social security number then it's it's not at all in iraq it was because this gets you right into the details of the an account number of just one follow up before you go to naples is applying douglas right so the root of the principle you want to apply it is it goes back to douglas the naples relies on douglas and extending in applying douglas can we overturn the district's decision not to  severely limits rd party communication for example you can even send a postcard if you're if you're a duck collector so i think this goes with the invasion of privacy  understanding of that number is that that was h r g s client and not a number that originated with r g is part of your argument that that  that in compas is the reliance on that number is part of the district court's  error it that dumber is a distinct number which is the original creditor is the medical providers account numbers and the client numbers so we were not arguing that that number of was this close or arguing that the was the invasion of privacy and really when you look at the big picture of the f t c that's really the predicate that it's all based on the f t c p a s language forbids putting anything on and on the law apart from a few specified things and this is not one of the specified things so it would just look behind the purpose to look at what the statute says you're right your honor but that also includes if you read that that text that you're referring to that also includes the address  mr kim argument is there is plausible hard privacy harm he's his client suffers from having something that could lead to his account number of financial information so d that's a different category  even with that f t c pay violation if you guys made the law here so you know that it needs still needs to be concrete right and they need a material risk of st of all if not if this if these six letters or numbers  not particular to mr morales then there's no harm yes and i but but if the six letters and numbers are particular  is not an account number judge south took great pains to detail the difference between the account number and the an internal reference number right but if that internal reference numbers peculiar to mr morale is then there is harm quite equivocal ringback looking at fried landers testimony that said things like iran's are not necessarily unique to specific customers and there could be this sixty aged six character item that is used to reference someone somewhere else so we've got him saying not necessarily unique and could be used to references others later he says that the six characters should bring up mr moore alice potentially with other d people he says it could vary it could be multiple computer screens it potentially could and then there could be associations that does not sound like anything remotely like unequivocal testimony that these six characters apply to others besides mr ellis it sounds very equivocal what am i missing there well you know again he said that it could apply to others and you're going to have the testimony it's not the same as the account number because if you look at the article action letter the account number is listed under account number and it's something completely different issue i'm i'm trying to get to the bottom of whether the six characters letters and numbers are peculiar or particular to mr ellis i'm just focused on that for now and i cited you a bunch of testimony that suggests that that they may well be perhaps they're not but they may well be well if you if you're going to concede that point then we can move to the other point which is well the six characters don't matter because they don't invade mr morales has privacy because somebody who would sloop around through into the bar code wouldn't really learn anything about mr morality is that is that the crux of your argument well that's one of quizzical well that it could apply but that wasn't the only reason why the judge sal's ruled she ruled that she ruled the way on standing because she said number one that the that number was not the account number associated with that that there was a different account number wasn't visible through the window l and below wasn't wasn't couldn't find it with a scan of the barcode it was actually in the bottom body the letter so it's a different number and your honor has the testimony the testimony is what it is he said that it could apply to others could not you know i submit that you know perhaps there could have been some follow now that is not any number that is generated by h r r g correct well all i can i don't know how it's generated all i can tell you is it says at the bottom of the letter says something like  you're not going to the clients number you not saying that on the record right i don't know how it's generated it says it says position this is associates of south jersey and which is with h r r g we can't be your account number ok but there are other numbers on the letter too right there's a pin number on the letter well no no we're just talking about that number right now correct i think you're right i don't i think that you're correct your honor i can't tell you for certain because i don't know if there is if there is any discovery on that per site issue in the record but i think you're correct just going off the fact that it says  of south jersey ok something like that if i'm correct on that home that that is not an r g p account number is the fact that judge follows roll lied on that in her account number analysis if you will ever know because it's not an account number which is in that which is in the barcode it's not an account number it's an internal reference number that's what it is there's other numbers on that letter to different of an account number i don't know i don't want the purpose of ha ha or g s account numbers just over just having a general comment the purpose of an account number is identify a person or entity correct one of the reasons correct or at the moment the the purpose that h r g has for the number is is not what would discussing the fact that it's used to identify sixteen character alphanumeric well you know i can go by the case law within that the jurisdiction it says account number is something different just like if you're looking on a medical record you have your medical record number that i think that's let's let me ask you to focus on that right now because the nub of the question here is not really whether this is called an account number an internal reference number it's not even whether it's unique  point is useless or doesn't have some privacy implications the reason i think of it this way is the statue has a flag and putting anything else on the on the wall and then under spokeo we have to focus on standing and mr morel says standing as long as there's some way in which his privacy is harmed now i'm the argument on his side was identity thieves put lots of different pieces of information together it doesn't have to be that one piece of information  gets you it's that this can be part of a mosaic that reveals some confidential information it's just said to be a brick not a wall as we say in evidence so why is it that this is not even a brick that could help to build the wall because there's  speculation so there is nothing that he can think of there's no evidence that they submitted to to show that you can do anything with it the evidence in the record for mr flynn greenlanders look if you called up and you gave this number you're not getting anywhere but the so i could take any collection letter and have someone's name on it and then for it with just the name and address i can go whatever steal the mail or whatever but that's not the way i understand that's not necessarily how how it works when you're looking at risk of harm i think there's a case out there that says you know you can assume that a rd party is going to steal mail and do this basically on what you have on what's on the letter it was literally useless w cable given other hypo let's say that the mother or brother or sister wants to snoop into your finances give privacy interest if you want to keep this from your mom isn't it true that mom knows your date of birth of course mom could use this letter and find out and say john doe and get all the information about it but bottom line is if you call council the argument you're making makes the question of why are we dealing with as as a genuine dispute you cut off at the end you honor but the answer when i think you're asking bottom line is based on the information even if you scan the barcode can't do anything with anything with the only way you can do something with it is if you commit a crime and steal some other piece of identifying information like a social or date of birth go going on going on the internet and finding a date of birth is not a crime well there's a lot on the internet and finding somebody the last four of the social which i that's to sort of comment right the i don't know who made this decision but at some point apparently somebody thought that it's ok to display people's last for the social if you don't display the other other characters with what appears to meet a relatively clear line of demarcation in the case load case load case law and that line of demarcation correct me if i'm misunderstanding it tells us that if the six alphanumeric characters are not unique to mr brough this you get summary judgment because his privacy has not been violated if the six alphanumeric characters are the most similar i'm not sure whether that code with unique to that individual and caruso but all the other thing that there was absolutely no way in iraq or to use the information to get private private i just i just want to quote the defendant's testimony the witness said together with the internal reference number they would have to have either date of birth or the last for social to bring up a specific consumers account information he didn't see and you only need one or the other he said or you just need a combination of two which is i mean one that's correct one plus the six character alphanumeric that's correct and i would just like to end with one analogy defendant was given a key to of all containing private sensitive medical information and the polls also had a and co two   congress when it found abundant evidence of abuse if the collection practices which included the invasion of privacy and where congress also found the thing laws were inadequate to protect these consumers they created a bright line rule by enacting six hundred and ninety two and it is clear you cannot have any language or symbol other than the debt collectors name if the name does not