all right was so you know we are you see can now open if we ask a lot of questions we give you the way solve just take your tank present your case out which would indicate that the types of encounters are we are not seeking any remedies with respect to the conclusion there are any administrate of the feeling that mistr pursued the deck action that those individuals are loyal regularly and exclusively in the transportation of overweight vehicles and they have had several encounters as well they are subject to the to the fines that are imposed by the city of chicago and they are also subject to the arrest which they allege have been made on a regular basis so they would have standing as well as cat up the city of chicago action statute talks about interest rock why would they have more standing than any other trucking company and he employees of any other trucking company that are going to be subject to the statutes  adjuster i can't tell you that these individuals have any more standee than any other person who may seek a permit or driver overweight truck  believe though that the declaratory judgment act indicates that where there is a controversy with respect to the interpretation of the statute that any one indication that controversy does have the right  the portion of the declaratory judgment action that presently pending that pertains to that ok it may it may moves whether or not  when there is no ordinance which indicates that such a binding is required as a condition of releasing that vehicle so with respect to whether or not mr salomon is subject to a fine for that one incident septic matter of bad review is the appropriateness of that fine under those circumstances we do not believe that that necessarily reaches the proprietary of the the the proprietary right i'm sorry the appropriateness of the city's practice of holding the vehicles hostage and this is something that could happen happened continuously during the  facing in this case that it that is exactly the i don't know that the fact that there is the individual not over the truck that's is that clear sir i believe it is he cause you can on what you call a ransom but that may be the subject of the class and if the ordinance sad that as a condition of removed meaning the vehicle or that a pint shall be placed on the vehicle the statue that working at sas the person to whom the citation is issued shall be required to post a bond in this in these cases it's the driver who is issued that citation and we have no objection to the requirement that the driver where the fire there should not be a reason to doesn't leave the city at least with respect to  authorize that condition and in this case there is nothing that authorizes that we'd all like to have self help we'd all like to collect our debts but the principles of due process provide that we cannot person to whom a citation has been issued maybe by a post a bond or shall divine we have in this appeal no no controversy with respect to that we do not challenge their record to do that because they undertook to pursue due process and proper properly promulgated statute to that effect but with regard to the hol here is required to mop the scales and that when the way is done in the truck it will be on the scales and that is we have no objection to the portions of the stack that require the written as most normal municipalities do under the state and act and therefore you know they get a percentage of the robinho but they don't get as much as the city seems to want  asks the only purpose of this this is the city of chicago gets more revenue by attempting to do its that would be by jaded view of it that it's revenue driven i believe that that is the case to to rule the way the legislature would papist rule if we can figure out what the legislature the court does have a sense of what the essence of bad because there is also a question that was established in a court of law was whether or not this is a traffic violation or similar fast we believe that clearly  differentiates between a motor vehicle especially going to do more because i'm one hand and substantially similar statute or ordinances which have to do with the movement that's a different language isn't it that yes that yes and it is it has the traffic regulations governing the movement of vehicles and we wish that mack that that traffic regulation that the city possibility that operation may not require mo with parameters your honor i don't know that that that i have an answer to that other than i don't believe that that because that i would not buy into this that he uses both words that's officers that stationary sitting off of city streets you can load these vehicles all you want and it's not a violation of so you want them well what are your plans for the surplusage happy movement and attached to it or something like that without the vehicle actually moving would be operating officers who are not trained in the training and to actually make traffic stops and to enforce what our highway rules you know they're either traffic or highway rules is what is what the st and that the best actually just specifically says whether it's operation or whether it's movement it is it can't be enforced that last year on the highway and the hope purpose of the overweight overweight status to protect the that the integrity of the streets from overweight they have so we believe that these training access that when you're in age to enforce the highway rules of the of the city that you must be you you must be trained under the police training in the city did at one time up until two years ago i believe in gauge police officers to enforce the that home rule us and this is the highway that and that we believe that it requires that degree of training and one of the reasons and this is not just something that we're trying to get off of but cast concern is that these traps weigh as much as one hundred hundred fifty hundred sixty thousand pounds they're permitted these are the trucks that come deliver the equipment that build buildings like this so that they're so that that function serves a necessary function what these what their experience as the record shows this that people who are who are armed with something that looks like a coke truck maybe co op driver has no way of knowing if that tow truck is that of course the officer and then these gentlemen have on occasion and the training is that the right of the crane is important with regard to that all there is that issue is that once you stop this person the city says we're not arresting and even though checks and the plane as i said you stay here until you post the fine well you know anywhere until that happens and that can be indefinitely so that takes it out that purview of the carrier or any of the other up even in that case that came to an end when the police officer says we're done with you i'm gathering that one when i came and took the truck they didn't chase and put him in chains they rust ok i mean courts sometimes use that word smell that's and that's given the force of law course i'm not purport to use it that way but i'm expressing some sense of sensibility about this kind of the tension that would seem to separate it from what the constitution was perfect acting  i might think that but this is that this is a practice that has said that is an ongoing practice and this is that this is a party to this case who has come here and said you are not free and the question geared toward streamlining the operation of traffic management but i use those terms because i find some source for them poll you can if you have a scale there are a few present a scale will get on that scale and you can stop yourself once you've done that stance you're really stuck does that ordinance really require the truck driver stay there because the fine in one of your arguments in your brief you point out that the fine is required from the owner of the truck not from the driver is the is the presence of the driver required or is it simply the presence of the truck and if it's the presence of the truck when we're dealing with the property are we dealing with the same process every week should confront me with you but according to the city's ordinance is not required to remain their city believes that sort of says that but i don't believe that there's anything in the statute that requires that but now we have a truck wait be uniform throughout the state and that the the staffers say who has jurisdiction over the roadway that jurisdiction is follows the maintenance that are that are not contained in section eleven so in the context in which chapters used clearly the legislature ma one there to suspicion turning first to the administration of education counts as your honor points out two point one bash two contains three extend to municipalities the ability to adjudicate in administrative proceedings to the extent permitted by the ellen white constitution we their first admit that this court should interpret the exceptions that follow that narrowly offensive under the only vehicle code and this court should interpret that language to me exactly what let me ask you that's supposing you recall around there that provision is the state free to write a citation for the exact same violation and recover again the state is free her several thousand dollars for the overweight that sat now can the same if supposing the policeman actually did the writing about him the policeman turn around and write a citation for the start with the current warning the violation that woman says that the city's department of transportation can't issue eight army for an overweight vehicle to travel on city streets and that it is a violation to particular weight within the ordinance but it does not make and a violation out of what is at all you know what that question is if you're if you're making a bet i think that all these years without informing the secretary say and i'm asking once the city exercises its hour with regard to its ordinance that mimics this specific but i would have to look at the language of the statute my point is simply that the particular statute that is the only vehicle of vision for it to be the same act which is what this language requires for it to be the same as honor that how it would work if the city was not able to proceed in the ministry of education i mean if the city was is able to have an overweight ordinance presumably it could seek county for the violation of   to turn first to your question your honor about the similar offense that is traffic regulations governing the movement vehicle we submit that that should be interpreted to give meaning to the phrase as vehicle using the highway for purposes of travel so if the intent was any regulation pertaining to the use of the highways for purposes of travel then the legislature would have ended th plaza right after traffic regulation instead it included the next slide which is governing the movement of vehicles which must modify and limit the broader category of track regulation and can't just be any regulation have to be governing the movement of vehicles and so operate the weight wardens talks about the operation and the permit awareness talks about you know the operation or movement however it's not an offense operate or move it's an offense to not have a permit to operate or move so in bilbo's case there's it's not it's it's either about it's not about the manner in which the vehicle is moving it's i understand what i mean the question is what can be adjudicated in administrative proceed and what cannot be educated is the traffic regulations that governs the movement of the beautiful the permit regulation does not govern the be thought of as the regulation of the use of the street however that is not preemptive what's preempt it is a tragic regulation meaning a regulation of the use of the streets that also governs the movement  narrow back prohibition down to where it becomes mean but we submit that it does it hasn't yet become meaningless because there are still there are there are similar offenses that are traffic regulations governing the movement and that was taking away from the ability of the state to determine reportable offenses and and the other problems that your honour's were referring to but and so therefore a similar offense that takes that govern pertaining to the government scuse me that governs the movement of beautiful would be outside the home rule authority but not just any old traffic regulation that pertains to the use of the street w is that it's the traffic regulation that's pacifically that the core of it the intent of it is to govern the movement of vehicles and think the intent of these weight ordinances is broader and therefore it should be limited to what this language specific play says governing the movement of vehicles not governing the weight of vehicles that also happens to have an effect on the manner in which the vehicle is moving but specifically governing the movement of vehicles that's all it's not really mean i agree with you you're on the bad the primary purpose of these ordinance concerns the damage that person grows but there are other effect that make this within the home rule of forty of the city to regulate i don't think that when you have a regulation that pertains to the use of the highways and may govern when the vehicles moving may also govern when the vehicle is standing but just has the motor on but that the question only one of those it's preempted from administrative duty and that is the pro the category that pertains to specifically the governing the movement of motor vehicles and we use them in the absence of the city's ordinance is not governing the movement it's governing the way well i think time to bring a motor vehicle if i have to make a determination i i would say the word operate has to relate to the fact that it's a motor vehicle and if it operates on a motor vehicle that almost invariably may be that the city would not be able to win or say its own awareness the language of bridge be wires operation but that wouldn't necessarily mean that what is preempted is the city's ability to adjudicate that particular violation in it and ministre proceeding that's the question i don't think it pertains to the way in which the ordinance is enforced i think it pertains to what is the essence of this ordinance and whether it fits in the language of what is to be  was protecting the state's right to go forwards loose if we go because i think it pertains to the last reportable offense was and incorporating that language into the other parts it's i think the intent was to not allow what happened in hanover park which is a system of adjudication in which it wasn't going to the circuit court and it wasn't getting reported to the secretary of state these offens the secretary has a duty to revoke licenses for etc that was an attempt of municipalities to circumvent what was an important program important interest of the state and i and i think that this language similar offense pertains to moving violations and other offenses in which the there is an interest of the state it's not there's no way for separate interests of the city necessarily or the city's interest is not as great and that it's because the state has an interest in knowing about it and that's why we urge the court to read the reportable offense but in conjunction with the other qualities of this and not try to this and accepting math but notice in that ordinance there were no mixing of metaphors between the words except for in the roman numerals in that it was just the words accepting and accepting and accepting here we have except for oh right well we submit that under any you either interpretation the city's ordinances do not qualify as accepting as exceptions but we'll leave it to the courts to decide which way to permitted ordinances to the state growth within the city's borders eleven's who will stand requires only that the chapter in which it is located which is the chapter on the rules of the role of the uniform throughout the state and in fact the which is in the chapter eleven and the rules of the road uses the word chapter and says this chapter must be uniform throughout the state it is specifically meaning the chapter of the illinois below code that it is located in chapter eleven and that's the track well that does provide an overarching definition of chapter for the entirety of i'll say yes however there is a more specific definition that applies in this particular act the rules it contains about a dozen different answers on boats on taxis on a number of other things if the intent of the legislature had been for all six twenty five which is a chapter under most normal definition to five again i submit that eleven deaths to a seven only talks about chapter eleven the rules of the road and the waits in chapter in chapter fifteen not in chapter eleven they really like this  that even if we didn't have authority over state roads we would still have already over our own right under that particular provision but again chapter eleven is all that must be uniform throughout the state and that's the rules particular preemption arguments however even if the city lacks the forty over state road we have a fallback argument and that is that the state has the ability to regulate its own roads and the beyond through the illinois department of transportation has issued a regulation requiring a city in addition to a state and it has no authority over its own rose i think there's no question about that so either way the city determine whether there is an ordinance violation i think everyone is in agreement now that that is not in the rest itself and in fact as this is your honour's we're mentioning montgomery and slots whole hole that that  the reasonable person would say despite the assertion of authority to the team someone that a reasonable person would not think that they were being really detained that they would say you have no authority over me even though you're placing them out there with the direction to assert that the city's afford well if it depends on the pursuit killer fact the particular case and in laski and montgomery this court held that even to show even requiring somebody just out to turn around and drive to await station that somewhere else that's you know that the person wasn't did not feel free to leave that still did not rise to the level of an iraq determine whether there's a violation of the overweight or he's focusing on what happens after that crack i agree i agree with that and therefore have a lag up until the point there has or any term work condition of a garment shall upon issuance of the citation deposit with the city of bonds in the form of a money order issued by a money transfer service company which has been approved by the commissioner of business may or may not be and in most cases is not the owner what you're doing is you're seizing the owner's property for the violation of the drive just a point to clarify that point your honor what is stated is not the driver the municipal code can use the work person in many instances when it means not just individual like a real person but corporation or business entity or it cetera that's a common use of the work person in the  stillman is bringing to his citation or taking the truck without posting a bond before the court and claiming that the city lacks authority not under because it's preempted by the state but because the city doesn't have an ordinance that's if if it lee allows that is currently the subject of the proceeding and the administrative review action and we submit that that is outside the subject matter jurisdiction of  every representative of the city of chicago testified in this case says it is our specific intention to hold people  he was under those circumstances he was not a person to whom a violation was being issued he was buying he was charged two thousand dollars because he removed property which should have been specific with respect and i think that qualifies as reaction languages that this provides every three were there it would mean what bendis said that the absence of roman numeral three does not mean that you can ignore the language that's there and if it were an exception to the exception it would not say anything except that hand means an additional exception so i think if you look at the language that's there the fact that some happily cracker is a challenge to two to relate to addition i concur it in addition you know some of these cases we get no matter what the priests tell you what way you're going to go i'm not so sure here i think your arguments were very worthwhile and helping us to think this through