the committee will come to order it will everyone take their seats the doors are closed but not locked ladies and gentlemen there's no more important issue that comes before this committee this congress or our this nation that than protecting the right to vote our democracy is premised on the notion of one person one bone it's the keystone right of our nation and without it all of the other rights and privileges of our people which quickly become meaningless and that's why so many of us think that this is a very very unusually important hearing for the judiciary committee protecting the right to vote election deception in the regularities in recent federal elections protecting the precious right does not come easily or cheaply in a very very real sense we fought a war of independence over our people's right to vote and the most basic reform that grew out of the civil war was the fifteenth amendments protection of the right to vote even then it was not until we passed the voting rights act of one thousand nine hundred sixty five and those continuations including the one last year that we began to give true meaning to that right there is a constant evident flow in our democracy over this right we've endured a lot of political abuses in our history tammany hall enacted reforms now while the days of bull connor turning firehoses on young voters may be over those bent on voter suppression of only turn to more sophisticated devices these modern day to include unfounded threats of arrest or loss of citizenship for failure to follow a lead elaborate and picked issues procedural requirements as well well as deliberate dissent from or this information with regard to correct polling locations or even the actual date of the election itself just ask the voters turned away from the polls in florida in two thousand because they were illegally purged from the voting rolls or the voters who waited in pouring rain for hours in inner city columbus while their counterparts in the suburbs went speedily through the lines or the african american voters targeted in nearby prince george's county maryland with false and misleading flyers while the notorious voter suppression practices of the pas been outlawed i believe it's time that we do the same with those notorious modern day practices in history we responded to the challenges laid by susan anthony martin luther king jr but today's modern day prophets like bobby kennedy jr and reverend jesse jackson have clearly and eloquently spoken to the problems we face today if we are serious and i believe this committee is about protecting the most fundamental of rights we have our work cut out for us and so proud to have joined with any do sing the very important legislation that will be discussed today while this may be one step in our efforts to reform the election process we do not pretend it to be a complete solution we also need to reduce our reliance on verifiable electronic voting machines so that american citizens can have the confidence in the results of our elections that they ought to have in each of the last three election cycles the luck charnock voting machines have literally cost tens of thousands of votes with no means of accountability for this most cherished constitutional right we also need to better ensure their allocation of voting machines and polling places there's not a reason in the world we cannot give our citizens the benefit of an election day holiday and we need to a fair more voter each and every instance we have seen disturbing instances of state and local officials using hyper technicalities to subvert the intent of the help america vote act if we allow the infrastructure of our democracy to decay our citizens will lose faith in our elections and for me too many already have and the very legitimacy of our democratic institutions is that risk forty years after the passage of the voting rights act i sat in this body and was present in this committee when it was enacted voters across the country continue to be the targets of deceptive practices and intimidation aimed at preventing them from voting it's long past time for better legislation to help prevent this from occurring and i am five seconds over my five minutes which allow lamar smith as much time as he may need over the five then i'm happy to introduce no ranking member of the house judiciary committee from texas with whom i have a very effective and cordial relationship mr smith you recognize and i thank you mr chairman both for the time and for those cordial conner's mr chairman elections are run by human beings and human beings have flaws so it's no surprise that voting fraud and other irregularities occur in each election and each political party of course has their favorite examples but voting fraud is deplorable and we must do all we can to prevent it but i want to focus on the day something the vast majority of the american people have shown that they are very concerned about and that is the problem of illegal immigrants voting in the need for photo id requirements a recent wall street journal n b c news poll mirrors every other people on the subject over eighty one percent of those surveyed supported a requirement to show a photo id before voting this includes two thirds majorities of african americans and democrats and a majority of hispanics in the one nine hundred ninety six election of one of our colleagues testifying here today representative loretta sanchez the house administration committee investigation found quote evidence of seven hundred forty eight improper ballots six hundred twenty four by immigrants who were not citizens when they registered to vote and i'm sure mrs sanchez and all of us agree that while we all want to earn as many votes as possible we only want those that are legally cast by american citizens i'm glad to see that the bills introduced by representative emanuel and senator obama to prevent voting fraud provide for stiff penalties up to five years in jail for illegal immigrants who vote illegally clearly under the terms of a charge well that you want an s four fifty three a person who signs of voting registration form that states they are a citizen and when they are not a citizen is a false statement and when that person votes and they gauge the vote of legally voting citizens then the illegal immigrant has the nod the legal voters right to exercise their vote regarding the need for a photo id requirement one needs a photo id to open a bank account or cash a check drive a car or board a plane because a photo id is so central to assimilation actually increased voter turnout that's because when people have greater confidence in the election process there is greater voter participation unfortunately state and local election administrators do not have a means of ensuring that only legal voters are voting so what is the most practical solution in two thousand and five a prominent group of bipartisan leaders and scholars led by former president jimmy carter and secretary of state james baker the third issued a very influential report one of the chief recommendations of the bipartisan carter baker commission on voting was as follows instead of creating a new card the commission recommends that stage use real id cards for voting purposes the real id act design in may two thousand and five require states to verify each individual's full legal name date of birth address social security number and u s citizenship before the individual is issued a driver's license or personal id card real id is a logical vehicle because a national voter registration act established a connection between obtaining a driver's license and registering to vote like i am over the real id card at two critical elements for voting proof of citizenship and if occasion by using the full social security number the real i d act does not require that the card indicate citizenship but that would need to be done if the card is to be used for voting purposes that's the end of their state chairman requiring photo i d s is not costless of course but it is well worth it as homeland security secretary chertoff recently stated quote it is a reasonable amount of money that people should pay to prevent people from getting on airplanes or getting in buildings and killing americans i think most people would say that twenty dollars per person well spent and as the carter baker report concluded quote voters of nearly one hundred schmidt other opening statements will be included in the record without objection our second panel that will come after our first columnist john fund and miss eve sandberg associate professor of politics of oberlin college our first panel will consist of our distinguished junior senator  from illinois barack obama who has worked in public service and started out as a community organizer civil rights attorney  state senate leader our sex is our former colleague now senator ben cardin a member of the senate judiciary committee who's been a national leader on health care on education public's safety and crime reduction a very articulate spokeswoman for the hispanic american community and in the congress as well  then we have rahm emanuel of illinois a former white house official former chair of the democratic congressional campaign committee and currently serves as chairman bilbray of california who's committee assignments include oversight and government reform committee ladies and gentlemen we welcome you all and we would invite senator  obama to begin our discussion welcome to the judiciary committee thank you very much mr chairman to ranking member smith and all the members of the committee thank you for taking the time to study this issue and thanks for giving me the opportunity to be here today you know i was pleased to introduce the deceptive practices in voter intimidation prevention act in the senate along with my colleague sen think most americans assume that voting is a sacred aspect of citizenship and people are not going to meddle with that we're past that point unfortunately there are people who will stop at nothing to try to deceive voters and keep them away from the polls much worse these practices often exploit and target the most vulnerable populations minorities the disabled seniors or the poor we saw countless examples of this in the past election some of us remember the thousands of latino voters in orange county california who received letters warning them in spanish that quote if you are an immigrant voting in a federal election is a crime that can result in incarceration or the voters in maryland who received a quote democratic sample ballot featuring a republican candidate for governor and a republican candidate for u s senator or the voters in virginia who received calls from a so called quote virginia elections commission informing them falsely that they were ineligible to vote or the voters who were told that they couldn't vote if they had family members who had been convicted of a crime the list goes on and of course the so called warnings have no basis in fact and are made with only one goal in mind to keep americans away from the polls we see these problems year after year in election after election and my hope is that this bill will finally stop these practices in time time for the next election the sceptic practices and voter intimidation prevention act makes voter intimidation deception punishable by law and it contains strong penalties so the people who commit these crimes suffer more than just a slap on the wrist the bill also seeks to address the real harm of these crimes people who are prevented from voting by misinformation by establishing a process for reaching out to those misinformed voters with accurate information so they can still cast their votes in time there are some issues in this country that are inherently difficult and political making sure that every american who's eligible can cast a ballot should not be one of them there's no place for politics in this debate no room for those who feel that they can get a partisan advantage by keeping people away from the polls and i think that it is fairly noted that this is not something that restricts itself to one party or another i think both parties at different periods in our history have been guilty in different regions of preventing people from voting for tactical advantage we should be beyond that as the new york times stated in its january thirty first editorial on this issue and i quote the bill is an important step toward making elections more honest and fair there is no reason it should not be passed by congress unanimously unquote i asked that does editorial be placed into the record but out of jackson so it's time to get this done in a bipartisan fashion and believe i believe this bill can make it happen i look forward to working with you mr chairman the ranking member of the other members of this committee as well as the many co sponsors of this bill in both the house and the senate to pass this legislation so that we can present it to the president for signature and i thank you very much for your time and attention i thought as i will probably have to leave before all the other witnesses have completed their testimony if there were specific questions for me i'd be happy to field them at this time well senator obama we thank you for your commitment and your support of the legislation we're happy that you be with us for as long as you can and i now recognize the junior senator from maryland been current the chairman thank you very much the smith and members of the committee it's a real pleasure to testify before the committee that i started my congressional service on was first elected the house of representatives the honor of protecting the right to vote jim and i couldn't agree more with your opening statement you just celebrated the forty second anniversary of the voting rights march in selma alabama john lewis of course who participated in that our colleague here  helped to pass the voting rights act hundred thirty seven years since the ratification the fifteenth amendment to the constitution we have overcome poll taxes we have overcome literacy tests and violence and yet intimidation against minority voters still continues in the united states and we need to do more about it i want to thank senator obama for taking the leadership in the united states senate on the deceptive practices and voter intimidation prevention act of two thousand and seven i think it's an extremely important point legislation to make it clear that we will not tolerate practices by campaigns to try to win an election by marginalizing minority voters it happened in two thousand and six in my own state of maryland in that election i had a hard fought primary election in which i was the democratic nominee for the united states senate then had an eight week period between the primary and the general during the course of that campaign i knew it would be very competitive i knew it would be aggressive but i must tell you mr chairman i was shocked by what i saw come out the day before the election itself if i might i would like to show you and ask to be part of the record the pamphlet that was handed out widely spread in minority communities in maryland the pamphlet starts off by saying ehrlich steele democrats official voters voter guide it then has the photograph of three prominent african americans in the state of maryland one being qui informant who was my primary opponent on the democratic side our former colleague in the congress who endorsed my candidacy for the united states senate after the primary it has the photograph of jack johnson who is the county exact of prince george's county the largest county of african american voters in the state of maryland jack johnson endorsed my candidacy for the united states senate pamplin then goes on to say these are our choices making it kind of clear that these three prominent african americans has endorsed the ehrlich steel democratic slate the inside of the brochure says democratic sample about giving the impression that this is the democratic ballot all of the candidates list are democrats except for the governor of our state and the u s senate which the republican candidate serviced the authority line this literature is from a republican candidate for governor and the republican candidate for united states senate the this literature was widely distributed in the u s senate candidate and the gubernatorial candidate brought in from pennsylvania from homeless shelters by boss large number of workers to work election day who had no idea what they were getting out at a chance to talk to some of them and they were giving out this literature some marginalize minority voters and it should not be allowed the legislation introduced by senator obama which i'm proud to be a co sponsor would make this type of deceptive practice illegal it's a narrowly defined the bill to make it clear it's in compliance with the first member to the constitution it applies only to communications within sixty days of an election it deals with a tightly defined false and deceptive information about the time place for qualification party affiliation or door since it is narrow but it does deal with the most blatant forms of deceptive practices that are aimed at suppressing minority votes that's its effort mr chairman i'm using the campaign for united states senate would be a rough campaign i expected to see some things that go beyond the pale that's all part of politics and i accept that but i think it's absolutely essential that we meant get clear it's not acceptable to engage in a practice of marginal not marginalized minority voters that should not be in this country and it's absolutely essential that the congress go on record and make it clear that campaigns cannot for to sit they in that type of conduct and i urge you to consider this legislation i think it's vitally important again thanks so much for obama for taking a leadership i thank you very much before you leave senator obama there is a question from our distinguished friend from virginia mr goodlatte and we've agreed with mr smith that his side will have fifteen minutes to question this distinguished panel and i know we will have fifteen minutes but we will allow him to get his question in before you the well mr chairman i thank you very much for  think in your opening remarks that there are some things that are political making sure that every american who is eligible to cast a ballot should not be one of them cast a ballot it's going to be one of them we're going to hear later from witnesses who talk about the importance of not allowing illegal aliens and non citizens to vote in federal elections and would you agree that that would be an important priority for year i think that i think that as a general look at one of the principles of any voting system is that people who are eligible to vote gets a vote if you're not eligible by definition you know gets voted by eight year old daughter shows up at the polls i hope somebody says young lady you're going to wait for ten years before you can cast your ballot and so i have no quarrel with efforts to make sure that voter fraud does not take  my concern having looked at the literature in terms of how that works is that it may and disadvantaging certain groups that are less likely as a routine matter to obtain a photo id and although minority groups may be somewhat in that category i should just point out that seniors are one of the groups that are most likely to be in that category and you know i know that in georgia where the a photo id requirement was instituted there was some concern that for example there was no access to an  to get the official photo id and lana and so before they had to drive from atlanta i don't remember which one it was but the point was that there were long travel times and great difficulty in order to get so in theory i think we're all in agreement that we want to establish eligibility we want to make sure that it's not set up in such a way where it's exclusionary or creates extra difficulties for some populations not of actually want to ask you about your legislation  to photo id certainly i hope we do move in the direction of doing that but i also hope that as we do it we make it very easy and affordable for people of lower economic means have less access to places to get the photo id but let me ask you your legislation appears to help with the problem that i mentioned because it simply prohibits a person from communicating false election related information in clued ing information regarding a voter's registration status eligibility when that person knows the information be false and has the intent to prevent another person from exercising the right to vote in elections described in the subject graham that's right now is my reading correct that your bill would impose the penalties up to five years in prison on illegal aliens and non citizens filling out voter registration cards when those cards state that the applicant is the united states is not likely i don't think so that that i think would be a stretch of the interpretation here would be if there was if i called your house and said you know what the election's been moved to wednesday instead of tuesday or send intending in this legislation it's not drafted in that way to set up a situation where we are creating a felony for somebody who thinks they may be eligible to vote an individual and turns out that maybe they weren't eligible because those circumstances could happen in all sorts of conditions well thank you i would just think that the intent to vote would be sufficient to show that a non citizen at least has knowledge of this vote would cancel out a legitimate u s citizens vote th preventing another person from exercising the right to vote in an election which your bill well i don't think it would prevent anybody under the scenario that you spoke about but i appreciate that that question so that we can make doubly sure that we're clear in this legislation that mr chairman and and the ranking member and the rest the committee members it is indeed an honor to be before you today to discuss a little bit about elections here although i know you all are experts in that before i began and before mr smith leaves the room i would like to make a correction to one of his remarks in his opening statement he said that in my election in one thousand nine hundred six the republic the congress  paper of the congress had determined that there might be seven hundred forty eight improper ballots cast in my election i would just like to note that that was the majority's report without any access to the files or information whatsoever by any democrats or any of the democratic staff on that committee and that hath force which means that unless you're willing to show it to me today i'm not willing to believe you of getting back to what happened just this past election in this past election there was a letter that was fan in our election i didn't even know it really had a reference to my alexion until my opponent fessed up that it came out of his campaign headquarters and the reason i would not have known is that the letterhead of this letter that came out was stated that it was from the california coalition for immigration reform or people who are pretty much anti immigrant and very very straightforward about it very vocal about it and if you know anything about orange county you'll also note that aside from these types of incite immigrant groups we also were the creators of the minutemen and other types of groups so imagine this letter was sent to fourteen thousand registered voters many who had been registered sometimes for over twenty years all of whom had indicated on their ass the day that registration that they were born in a latin american country central american country or mexico only hispanics now these people had been naturalized some for many years so imagine when you receive a letter from one of these anti immigrant groups and it goes on to say several things be advised that you are if you are a resident of the united states and if that residence be advised that if your residence in the united states is illegal or if you are an emigra which all of these people by definition because this is what they look on to get this list were voting in a federal election is a crime that can result in incarceration em possible deportation for voting so it wasn't that a voter suppression voting suppression letter what is very troubling is the next line in the same way the advice that the us government is installing a new computer ai system to verify names of all of the newly registered voters who participate in the elections in october and november this election mind you and organizations against immigration will be able to request your information from this new computerized system so intimidation was there that if you showed up to vote your name would be available to people like the minutemen this letter by the way was sentenced spanish it was actually sent to only voter in the district where i represent when we first started seeing it walk into our offices we didn't know what's about our election it would have been about a city election about but and we would have never known it was about our election except that our opponent again did a press conference to say it had come out of his office i have seen many things in orange county eighty but i would have thought that after ten years of representing orange county that these types of intimidation in suppression would have gone away and unfortunately they haven't  i would just like to say that i believe that h r twelve eighty one will strengthen will strengthen the prohibition and punishments of deceptive practices that ain't to keep voters away from polls on election day thank you introduction you spoke eloquently about the voting rights act from sixty five and having just returned from the trip that john those put together for everybody down in selma in bringing my ten year old son for his birthday gift to have we are talking about here though we did exactly the right thing as a country bypassing the voting rights act here it is we're parties political parties and the campaigns have taken on the role of intimidation that  n has passed down to the state to state parties and candidates the state has backed away from that role because of the voting rights act but the role of intimidation continues and others have adopted a second dole's ex side to the parties to appeal to the state t v stations to take that ad down sometimes you win sometimes you lose but there's a recourse if in fact that is a great if i can recommend if not also then submitted to the record a sunday front page story in the boston globe that looks back on all the ads that were pulled down etc if i could i'd like to submit that into the record we were included in the record there is no recourse for a false pamphlet for a false phone call there is no recourse this raises the penalty for knowingly seating a person who wants to vote when they change a lot when they say there's a change location for your voting booth that you can't vote unless you do x y and z this raises the penalty and has a place of recourse or there's a consequence in the same way that during a campaign if somebody runs a false  a party on behalf of the candidate can have a recourse that t v station have a t v station way that this attempts to make people before they do something whether it's a three o'clock in the morning phone call whether it's the literature that ben our colleague now that  show that head out there or all the other literature that's been passed out mainly minority communities but not limited to that telling people that their voting places been changed or the requirements of what they need information to vote has been altered this raises the stakes to doing that and will hopefully have the consequence of actually making folks campaigns or parties pull back now we are all taking the action here that is within our purview which is to deal with making sure that intimidation does not stop people from exercising their rights and that is to vote there are other two there are two other pieces to this one of them is leaders and elected officials that inspire people to come out and vote and are citizens who take their responsibility and their rights seriously and do it for only dealing with one of the three today an important piece of it but the other two play a very significant role in increasing the turnout and participation in the democratic process mr chairman i want to thank you again for holding this i want to apologize because i have to go to another hearing to ask a question on the a m t tax which i know i hope stared at all our colleagues thank you so much congressman  member smith to testify before this committee as opposed to be seated upon it and i'm going to take this a little bit to a little bit different tack here in this discussion that we've had and focus on some facts that currently  have numbers between eight and fourteen million illegal aliens in the united states are who are of voting age that's a liberal exposure there approximately twenty three million legal non citizens legal non citizens who still live in the united states in addition to that  fourteen million illegals or about voting age beyond requiring applicants to sign a pledge on a voter registration form affirming that they are u s citizens there are no restraints to prevent the nation's illegal aliens and lawfully present non citizens from casting ballots in our local state and federal elections are a number of tactics that are being employed by illegal aliens and non citizens to fraudulently vote in federal elections one is to obtain a state driver's license a lot of states purposely or inadvertently allow illegal aliens to receive a driver's license but under the motor voter law the national voter registration act of one thousand nine hundred three information provided by the applicant for a driver's license may also be used for voter registration unless and this is an important point unless the applicant specifically indicates that he or she did not want to be registered to vote that's an encouragement for a non citizen whether they're legal or illegal to register to vote and they may not understand the language they may just simply be complying with the bureaucracy register to vote and find themselves in violation of federal law but it's hard to find anybody that will check their large numbers of non citizen illegal aliens that are on those kind of lists so  integrity of the election process congress enacted the illegal immigration mormon immigration and immigrant responsibility act of ninety six bill that mr smith was well involved in it made it a federal crime for a noncitizen vote in the federal election and also for non citizens who knowingly voted illegally to be deported non citizens who fraudulently claim to be u s citizens could also be in violation of the act so that tighten some things up in ninety six but despite the penalties that are there there are frequent substantiated reports of illegal aliens and non citizens taking part in elections one of their reports is a well known one that we discussed earlier here that this sanchez responded to with regard to mr smith numbers and i will say that  research comes up with the same numbers nine hundred eighty four question votes or nine hundred eighty four vote difference in the end vest a geisha and revealed that there were maybe as many as seven i'll say rebound evidence that there were seven hundred forty eight improper ballots six hundred  twenty four by individuals who were non citizens but the ruling was even though eighty's eighty three percent of the improper ballots were by non citizens that wasn't enough to change the results of the election and the house oversight committee found that it would not affect the results of elections so there was no recommended change i think that was a good action by this congress to recognize a flaw in the system but didn't seek to get a political gain by adjusting to that flaw so i'll say that i'll recite committee at congressional findings there of the highest integrity as is mr smith of texas and there's also issues within the state of utah where they found fifty eight thousand the illegally illegal aliens had fraudulently obtained driver's licenses of those at least three hundred eighty three were registered to vote presumably by motor voter ice narrowed some of that down took a sample of one hundred thirty five of these individuals and discovered that five were naturalized citizens twenty were won't be portable by their measure one was a permanent legal resident and one hundred  nine had no record and were assumed to be in the united states illegally but at least fourteen had voted in a recent election and and we know that people move so that makes it an even more significant number north carolina ice agents identified at least four similar cases there  and so there were there's a very simple solution to this and that's to provide a photo id we've talked about the real i d act of the that addresses this mr chairman and committee and of the real i d act does a number of things that are that are really effective that requires a photo id and it requires a so security number to be attached to that and then we can attach the condition of citizenship to the real i d as well those three things there would go do more to prevent fraudulent voting than anything else that i can think of but as i look across the spectrum of these issues and i will tell you that i sat in the chair for thirty seven days in the two thousand election tracing the internet and my dish t v and my telephones and i found out a lot about election fraud in this country much of which i've not addressed in my testimony today but i believe we need to adopt the real i d act for voter registration we need to also have an integrated voter registration lists that he lemonades to duplicate the d c s and where the law applies the felons and i point out that there are certain states that prohibit the electoral workers from challenging a prospective voter even when they know that prospective voter is not the person that they represent themselves to be so for example if i were an electoral board worker in a state like new mexico for example and my name being steve king and i have gone in there to work and decided it was my shift is over that i'll vote if someone comes in and presents themselves as steve king i have to let them vote even though i'm the individual  registered on their voter registration list there are those kind of prohibitions that are in place that are designed to keep from intimidating voters that disenfranchise real citizens that really have the right to vote and i concluded that thank you mr chairman real yield back the two seconds of my time appreciate the privilege to speak here today i also appreciated the ability to serve as a county supervisor for the three million people of san diego county where i supervised a very large registration vote system in that in that county and i have to tell you the ten years that i served there it became obvious to me that though in the past we have been very very strong about regime guaranteeing the ability on the franchising of individuals to able to vote we have never really looked at the other way that people are disenfranchised and i remind you that the procedure of voting is not in and to itself it's a sacre right not only to vote but to have your vote count and the challenge of the past was making sure the franchise was not violated by the nine people the ability to participate in the voting process but we have done almost nothing mr chairman a most nothing to make sure that the franchise is not being canceled out by allowing those who are not qualified to vote the quote to cancel out the qualified voters and i think every american citizen has the right not only to vote but to have their vote counted and not to have their vote canceled out by a disqualified voter may not seem like it's a big deal but when you have thirty seven plus million people that could be out there and could be canceling out votes i think it's time we check on that i'll just tell you as somebody running the registration system i could ask you for documentation about your residency and check about where you live but i wasn't allowed to ask you about your citizenship i have to go on the honor system that just if you sign it off and i would ask you to ask the ways and means committee they think that the tax system in this country could function on the honor system where every taxpayer just saw signed off and nobody ever audited nobody ever checked we not only do not have the check that you specifically have state laws that restrict the ability to do that kind of checking i think that the fact is that when we get into motor voter we've got to recognize that these two challenges to the people's franchise is there and we need to address the other side of mr chairman as somebody who represented a a committee with a large percentage of foreign nationals and naturalized citizens the burden of being disenfranchised by your legal vote is not equally distributed across this country we all know it's the working class american citizens that have the greatest propensity for having their vote not count because this congress and the federal government hasn't done its part to protect their franchise the wealthy neighborhoods pand not to have that threat so i just think that we need to be upfront about this i think that the carter commission addressed that appropriately and over the years i've wondered when we're finally going to get to the issue that we should make every vote count if it's legal and that means a lot and this is not just illegal immigrants this is all immigrants that my mother is very proud that she got her citizenship and was franchised she's also very much upset that she was she was actually find in australia because she didn't vote or first election because she was too young to vote register but not all but actually turn twenty one before the vote we don't want to create those kind of catch twenty two and we've addressed those in the past i just ask you that if you truly believe in the right of franchise and you truly believe not only in the right to people of open for their vote to count we have to address the issue of the identification of the person when they show up to the polls and the real problem is the voter registration system and i'll give you some of the problems you have paid red going out there people that are being paid by groups and agencies to collect vote they will tell people almost anything to be able to get them to register once these individuals register and many of them for nationals who are not proficient in english when they get the papers from the county of san diego or from the state they assume they're legal and so this is an issue of protecting the innocent from taking a deadly mistake because many times the legal votes are manipulated and are pushed by people who have something to gain when it is not the immigrant who intentionally so i just ask you in conclusion to respect the fact that every voter should count and no voter should be have his vote canceled out and so franchise him and i think is the challenge before us mr chairman are we willing to protect the vote after it's cast as much as we've been willing in the past to make sure the vote gets cast i thank you very much mr mr bilbray we're grateful that you came here today and by previous agreement i have fifteen minutes to divide on my side and so this mr smith if i could just recognize m cohen to the present let's let's try this present their questions to who they want to direct and and then we'll ask the  witnesses to respond starting with jerry thank you mr chairman and mr chairman i thank you for the syrian this extremely important legislation my first question is of a our colleague a representative king reading your testimony you say was discovered that more than fifty eight thousand illegal aliens had fraudulently obtained driver's license a legislative audit bureau determine that of these fifty eight thousand possibly three hundred eighty three illegal aliens who registered to vote immigration  that these fourteen had voted in the recent election said fifty eight thousand people maybe fourteen fourteen possibly illegal people had voted do you think that's a significant problem  eight thousand is we correct but but they're registered to vote illegal aliens would be three hundred eighty three so i'd say the more proportionality has to be that we go and fourteen out of that i think is significant given the small populations of some of these elections that take place and that the state of florida was a down to about five hundred thirty seven votes have made a difference in the lead or the fourth morning in the state of utah and them well i'm glad you have state of florida state of florida five hundred thirty seven votes in that election or at least that was before the recount was stopped  that i've heard some of those some of those numbers i have not seen that kind of data that gives me confidence that that's an accurate conclusion that one can draw i have seen the data that says even so far as the miami herald on the recount of the election came up with the same number the election apart so i can speak to that but i will say this that i think that democrats believe that republicans are guilty election fraud i believe republicans think democrats are guilty of election fraud i think some exists on both sides to what magnitude i don't know but i believe we all should endeavor to make it is absolutely clean as we possibly could and put those checks and balances in place i don't think that a twenty percent error rate in a voter registration list that's going to purge felons is an acceptable result at all and that holds up then and i would be a critic of that kind of behavior just as well but i want to have the highest level of integrity because first of all i'd say i'd rather lose the presidency or the majority than lose the integrity of our electoral process if we lose our confidence in it and it comes down to confidence sixty days before a federal election during the communicates false election related information about that election with intent to begin another person from exercising their right to vote in that election we're going to do so should we find under this title or imprisoned for not more than five illegally well again i believe i would agree with mr obama in the sense that that we that i agree with his intent i will tell you something we already to be a citizen who is not a citizen and therefore not a legal vote clearly that's a false statement but i think that would apply again that's just not i think they run the risk people who are here without talk to the right who are not citizens ron the risk of probably the greatest penalty and that is the penalty of deportation from this nation for voting with us i think that the and if they have it or not it is they're not in jail sentence under this bill and we can i don't want to i i think that they are and i think a court would find that they are we can discuss that morning and again this may question may be a little too technical but this is sixty days before an election why would this bill apply sixty one days o boat ride the lawsuit in court found that it could not cite one single case of instance of voter and person nation fraud in the state of missouri had similar results they couldn't find any any cases of the kind of that you're quite concerned about and i don't my own state of minnesota there's been much made about immigrants voting or non citizens voting but still nobody ever has he will cases to produce can you tell me since nine hundred ninety six exactly how many removed convictions have taken place under the law for non citizens voting and as compared to how many actual votes were cast in federal election since that time place and could you also would have the answer that question in less that happens to be in my hand in which case we're looking at for two thousand and two we have person in charge ninety five convictions fifty five dismissals by the government eight and acquittals five so fifty five and that one years or fifty five in the year two thousand and two and the other data for any of the that's the only data i have in my hand right now thanks to somebody's staff how many federal votes  many votes were cast in the two thousand and two i don't know the answer to that question would you and would you agree with needed probably far less than one hundred one percent is represented by that fifty five number what would you agree that question and i would then i would state that i don't believe it's relevant to the subject before this committee but thank you for your very well then let me ask you this how many people do you think have been excluded from their right to vote by voter suppression which is actually the subject of this  i didn't testify as to that and but i would believe that there have been it would be my judgment and we all none of us know facts here in this because there are there are many things that happen within the voter election or in the election process that are not reported that are not prosecuted there are a lot of things that are just given a pass so i don't think we can give it an analytical numerical analysis and take it down to the percentages although i generally do look at things from that perspective i would say that on the one hand those people who have voted they have voted illegally and been prosecuted as part of it but all of those who have voted illegally have cancelled out someone else's legal vote well let me ask and sir what about the people who have had their votes suppressed such as the florida represents i saw the numbers by the thousands alleged in florida i saw reports that there were police roadblocks that were set up that intimidated i looked into that further and they were irrelevant roadblocks we're significantly away from the voter summit from the election polls so as i agree with you members of both parties are guilty of irregularities first of all let me ask you this what role is your state elections administrator or have aggressive efforts to mislead and or intimidate voters issued a recommendation area issued as it was actually our current governor was this governor was secretary of state jack culver and he issued an order that the county auditors in the election poll workers could accept ballots from people who were not registered at that precinct figure out those who are illegally by definition of they're on documents there's no documents so you have no list to check where you can have a list of checked legal resident aliens and you go down that list but you don't have the list of the other so the open opportunity when we talk about being able to prosecute those who are illegal to try to get the data to get them is is impossible and once you can somehow have a proactive and that's where you get into this problem here it's california when you fill out the affidavit and it is an affidavit you fill out you are asked if you are a citizen check the box situ are citizen then you continue to fill out the forms if you check the box th that's not a citizen it's a plainly there please don't register to vote you're not allowed to vote now so it also says on there with respect to penalty should you fill out the affidavit incorrectly or falsify it it also by the way just ask for country where you were born usa or mexico or italy or whatever country in reference to i think a miss convene with the second panel all other questions to any of the witnesses will be submitted in writing i see mr cain is getting prepared to to respond to my question i to disappoint you but i'm going to just simply point out in response to a question by the ranking member that the gentle lady from california is absolutely correct it does exist in the federal statutes a penalty for unlawful voters and i would refer my colleagues to the us call adds section twelve twenty seven sec and a capital letter and let me read it into the record so there is no doubt as to the accuracy of the statement congresswoman sanchez any alien who has voted in violation of any federal state or local constitutional provision statute ordinance or regulation is the portable so there is a sanction on the books today and  let's have a brief recess i really think the panel question should be submitted that have not been sufficiently by our committee and may stand in recess so immediately after the votes on the floor the committee will come to order we continue our panel the second one for the afternoon protecting the right to vote and we are honored to have  president and c e o of the people for the american way if you would get a second panel and to read and i take notice that his mother is in this in this in the audience sensenbrenner i know from past experience the best thing i could do is to protect myself by bringing my mother with me so sarah play softball questions from everybody mister representative smith and distinguished members thank you for the opportunity to testify today i am ralph neas and present people for and i want to commend you mr chairman for holding this hearing at the focusing attention on the most important domestic issues facing the nation i make this statement because i believe the right to vote is the bedrock of our democracy and by the way i just saw chairman watt come in here and i haven't seen mr sensenbrenner but the work of you all on the voting rights act extension last year was absolutely spectacular and just want to thank you all indeed everything in our democracy ultimately depends on the check party of our election system with more than one million members and supporters people for the american way and our sister foundation are committed to ensuring that the right to vote is guaranteed to all eligible voters and that this right is secure a word about our comprehensive election reform and protection efforts people force established at the mocker sea campaign which comprises all of our voting rights efforts both on the state and local level through voter registration legislative grassroots litigation and geo t v efforts this campaign also two thousand and eight this nation will choose a new president and once again voters will determine control of both chambers of congress all americans deserve open fair elections in which their votes would be cast and counted as they intended in order to give election officials time to implement election reform congress must pass the needed legislation in a matter of months and provide adequate funding to put those reforms in place in the aftermath of the two thousand elections cal tech an mit issued a joint study estimating that some four million americans were disenfranchised in two thousand citizens were denied the right to cast a vote or to have their vote counted by a range of problems including faulty equipment poorly designed ballots and untrained poll workers as well as voter intimidation and suppression efforts and other illegal action these problems have persisted to the past several actions as evidence in the report that you mr chairman prepared regarding the two thousand and four presidential election in ohio as we know the complexity and sophistication of voter intimidation suppression tactics have grown with each election w problems with faulty voting technology have also proliferated and lot of these problems mr chairman i salute you for taking the leadership with congressman rahm emanuel well in the induction of the deceptive practices voter intimidation prevention act of two thousand and seven along with representatives basara allison and hope people for is firmly committed to helping pass this bill in the house and help senator barack obama's bill in the senate i would like to discuss for a minute or two that some of the problems that people for a foundation addressed during our election protection campaign in the thousand and six elections and demonstrate how your legislation will help us remove such barriers to the ballot box and protecting the voting rights of every citizen the current federal law provides criminal penalties for some voter suppression and intimidation practices the newest way with these reprehensible taxes may not be covered including just information campaigns and harassing robo calls we have heard previously heard about the letters in orange county in the robo calls and flyers in maryland and virginia so let me mention a few others through our program people for responded to additional complaints from around the country including in pima county arizona where we received several reports that a group of people claiming to be with the united states constitution and horsemen appeared at various polling locations under the pretext of preventing illegal immigrants from in reality these actions were intended to intimidate not seen the voters and done an accounting to mexico a voter received several campaign phone calls telling to vote at a polling place that did not exist further in several virginia counties democratic voters received phone calls from purported election officials that devising that they should not vote on election day and they'd be prosecuted they showed up at the polls unfortunately these are typical complaints among the thousands that the election protection coalition has received over the past three federal elections we are extremely appreciative the chairman's efforts to put an end to such widespread abuse at the same time we must diligently protect voter rights once they get to the vote of the voters do not have confidence in the electoral process helping and coverage voters to show up at the post lack of confidence in the voting process is effectively become another suppression tactic leading people to stay away from the polls because they do not believe their votes will count perhaps less most egregious example of both problems at the polls was a travesty that took place in florida  certain congressional districts and the developer lection voters in service at a county sarasota county use paper as an audible electronic voting machines in the race to succeed congresswoman katherine harris the county's voting machines failed to register a vote for approximately eighteen thousand voters mr jim i've got only about a minute to go would that be ok about a minute mr chairman i can finish in a minute i haven't ever granted anyone a minute overtime even with my mother h thank you again for the opportunity to testify and for your steadfast commitment to addressing the compelling issue of election reform when i feel that the momentum for comprehensive election reform is growing i fear that state election officials may not have the time and money to successfully implement these new laws as you know the reverend martin luther king jr often used to frame the urgency of now that phrase is so relevant and we feel the urgency of now with regard to election reform the clock is ticking we must not let time run out we are firmly committed to working with members of congress and our coalition allies to ensure that electoral reform becomes law in time to protect the integrity and fairness of the two thousand and eight elections nothing less than the heart and soul of democracy that this is at stake th thank you thank you very much sir donna brazil is well known for her career on capitol hill she worked for the congress she worked in the civil rights movement  she is now too to college and is writing extensively and we welcome her for her comments on a subject to which she has been committed across the years rights institute which was founded in two thousand and one following the chaotic election in florida to help every american but physically in the political process like ralph neas i want to thank this committee forgotten and helping to steer through the minutes at the two thousand and six forty two years after the heroic marches tried to cross the edmund pettus bridge only to be met with ugly violence we continue to celebrate the courage and on of what they marched for that says a lot about our country that we own up how struggles that we acknowledge we haven't always done what we should and that we commit ourselves to press ahead and to move forward to remove any new impediment of vestiges of a previous era that prevented eligible citizens competence a fate in the electoral process mr chairman after the two thousand election we committed ourselves at the democratic national committee to eliminate any problems we saw at the ballot box and to recruit lawyers and volunteers to this assistance and educating americans of their right to vote in the process and during the last political cycle we heard from thirty thousand americans who needed our systems and got and and locating a polling place on the stand in their right to vote by absentee ballot early voting a provisional ballot i fully support h r twenty twelve eighty one and its companion bill in the senate because i believe this legislation is inaccurate and implemented properly will eliminate all partisan tactics that depress turnout as well as some of the structural barriers that eliminate people from the  rolls right before the election we learned in our own experience in ohio following the two thousand and four presidential election where we conducted a very comprehensive study that twenty three percent of all citizens and i say forty four percent of african american voters where more than twenty minutes to vote three percent had to leave the polling place because of long lines two percent had to go to more than one polling site before finding the correct location six percent of all voters sixteen percent of african americans report experience in some sort of intimidation at the polls and two percent of all voters four percent of african americans had trouble getting absentee ballot or their registration status challenge at the polls even with help america the help america vote at which was supposed to  fully eliminate some of our problems we saw problems across the board in the last electoral cycle congressman cotton so obama many others point out some of these problems but let me just also highlight out this registered voters in virginia mr scott  home state receive automated phone calls balkan claimants that vote is a match they were removed from voter register registration rolls and should not show up citizens were warned that if they showed at the polls they would be arrested in arizona latino voters were confronted by intimidating government not show up at the polls students approach you college and texas were threatened with ten thousand dollars on a ten years in prison if they registered to vote at school despite having the same rights as any other prairie view residents dissipate students at colleges and universit across the country complained that they had difficult difficulty in casting their ballots on campus or and getting their absentee ballots on time these deceptive taps taxes are not new they have become part of the political landscape and it's time that we have been employed by range of political operatives many of whom and for prominent in their own political parties and they of course have gotten away with it mr chairman i want to submit for the record my testimony along with some of the reports on some of the ballot security authority can volunteers so our system is rife for problems rifle or misinformation that that is often given out as you well know mr chairman you know twenty one so called swing states with margin of victory that are so narrow that these sort of tactics grateful for your being with us and we now turn to a sandburg associate professor of politics at oberlin college a member of the of the council in his city and who has carefully observed the election process has in ohio in two thousand and four and two thousand and six is well we welcome you  and your statement will be incorporated in its entirety in the record and we're glad that you're here as  well thank you mr chairman good afternoon my name is the san bergen i live in oberlin ohio i teach in the politics department at oberlin college i'm also an elected official serving as an at large city council in the city of oberlin like many ohioans i was vitally involved  election process is in two thousand and four and six thank you for the opportunity present to offer my perspective immolate what i heard and saw happening in ohio during the last few elections i want to note that my comments today will demonstrate my view that the republican party leadership of ohio involve themselves in practices that undermined a fair and democratic electorate process however when these activities were revealed often we found that many ohioans who were supporters of the republican party cooperated with democrats to rectify what they recognized be dishonorable act or a pile of politics practices my remarks today should not be construed as an attack on republicans but rather on those ohio republicans who played leadership roles in their party's recent election and all those republicans who continue to deny the irregularities and undermining practices that marked ohio's regional elections regarding the registration process in ohio in two thousand and four and again in two thousand and six part of the election the ohio secretary of state's office held by the republican leadership sent out mixed messages about voting rights the secretary of state's office for example example let it be known that election officials ishall would vigorously challenge avid avid the only voters adversely affected during the registration process again in two thousand and six by the changes of the requirements for voting poor people the elderly who had lacked or had given up who lacked or had given up their driver's licenses safe disenfranchise women as well from a requirement that they had to produce a photo id in order to vote a vote few voters have have have have photo identifications other than driving driving drivers licenses suppression of the vote became a campaign tactic that did that was the they did in ohio manipulating the placement of voting machines sheens and by unlawful challenges of assistance right to vote despite data on the number of register register register registered voters heavily democratic credit credit credit party areas particularly precinct the sinks with large numbers of africa african american voters or student voters voters were provided with if you go to voting machines that ohioans in these precincts had to wait our our our hours in line to vote you know rolling up to five hours yet we heard not one report that any priest precinct which voters who voted largely for republican can kins receive to vote too few voting machines or suffered for it hours of voting online however we also heard the republican look in leadership celebrating the enormous republican turn used during the training of poll workers did not match the manuals of the poll workers were given given further on the day of the to the to the to the two thousand and six election a different set of rules was distributed put it put it polling stations the obvious obvious observation here is that if there if there is confusion among poll workers how is a voter supposed to satisfy the rules in two thousand and six many absentee ballots were printed two weeks late and thus deliberately individuals had inserted into voting machines on the day the election it took at look at took hours to correct the situation before the voting poll and then for the for the voting polls open late for many voters who had made arrangements to vote prior to going work to work it was not possible to do so if there was any silver lining to the distressing reports of irregular or online lawful practices it can be seen and known in those voters who were able to vote for more hours to waiting a long line who cherish democracy and see enough to demand the right to  regardless of how inconvenienced they were despite the sea this is a man distrust created by the actions of our highest ohio elected officials the determination patience and goodwill of the americans is doing great in coping with adversity is admirable now i hope the united states congress after hearing our jets money today will be what we store our faith in our political leadership and work to restore free and fair election practices in ohio and elsewhere throughout our country i thank you for the honor of including my testimony today has been unusual in my mind because we have had literally no discussion of the responsibility of the department of justice is civil rights division the vote vote vote vote impression and i have raised this issue in my visits to the department of justice last last year that we have we have very never to be really dealt with and that it is critical that we have two things coming out of our  government and particularly d o j and that is one that we affirm and definitively occur encourage everybody to vote and make it as simple as possible observations of what we should be doing and could be doing to stimulate the department of justice to sin in that direction and start with  since my work with senator edward w brook republican from massachusetts and david gergen i've had from republican from minnesota i've had much experience from the congressional side looking at what justice has been doing and of course with my years with the leadership conference sense of rights office seen and now with people few american way i must tell you there have been some bad periods of time i can i can think of the bright re years at the department of justice john justice under ronald reagan and when a republican controlled senate judiciary committee would not promote him to associate counsel because the department of justice made every effort to undermine the importance of our civil it is the area of voting rights and i would hope perhaps this legislation can serve as a catalyst for more effective work by the department of justice because with respect to deceptive practices  and knowingly commit it and makes them an active participant and i talked before about election protection we had thirty five thousand american citizens volunteer to go into thirty five hundred precincts over the last couple of elections to make sure that we were monitoring what was happening in terms of voter intimidation and mistakes and lack of education that should not be the responsibility of the nonprofit committee the department of justice should be leading on this issue going in two thousand there was a whitewash with respect in florida with respect to much of what happened in two thousand and four in ohio what happened in maryland in virginia over the last year with the robo calls the other kinds of the septa practices what is the department of justice say we're specific hearing from the committee and to do sure all of these acted upon allegations separate and apart from this legislation is important as it really is i would hope such sharing sicker and the very near future i'm sure that both democrats and republicans would like to get the department of justice up to address the civil rights issues and many other issues that they have responsibility for and quite frankly i do not think they've been enforcing the law in many areas but especially in the civil rights division thank you mr chairman ralph mentioned you know nonprofit organizations and an organization such as he is but just imagine the amount of money it costs for both parties to have to deploy thousands of lawyers across the country to trying a whole lot just to put out correct  a government in our justice department committed to full import in the law we would have to appropriate this type of money for political expenditure so it would help us also on the political side if we if the justice department got involved in intervene and ensure that there was no hanky panky at the ballot box i mean it's gotten outrageous i've been involved in politics since i was not a no that's a little younger than most people but in louisiana we got involved early right after the assassination of martin luther king i felt compelled to go out and go buy a sickle bicycle or urging people to vote why because we were promised a playground today many young people don't want to get involved in it and get out to register people because the barriers have been set up they've been told in some cases that if they submit a name and the spelling is incorrect they could go to jail and so it's becoming harder and harder to get people involved and to get people excited about electoral process and we've set of policies impediments thank you so much i turn to the ranking departed justice has been doing in the area that's under discussion today mr chairman two thousand and two the justice department announced an initiative and put your required all components of the department to place a high priority on the investigation and prosecution of election fr as of last year one hundred ninety five election fraud investigations were currently pending throughout the country as of then and since the start of the initiative one hundred nineteen people were charged with election fraud offenses and eighty six individuals had been convicted in the jury the justice department is conducting an investigation because the state's voter rolls in some cases have one hundred fifty percent of the voting age population listed on the voting rolls so that part of  the political aisle to their investigation i hear about those that are where republicans are being targeted no doubt you hear about those where the democrats are being targeted clearly they're over done and can be investigated at the appropriate time so first of all i want to compliment you i've enjoyed reading your columns over the years and i have always found them particularly insightful and there are a lot of people that try to good money for the good advice you give back i do enjoy reading your perspective on politics let me ask a question and directed toward you miss brazil and this is based upon the carter baker commission report i think that you're familiar  with among the findings was that florida has more than a hundred forty thousand voters who apparently are registered for other states watching an astronomical figure for duplicate registrations in my judgment by the way that includes sixty four thousand  registered not only in florida but in new york city alone more than two thousand people voted in more than one state in the last election clearly something that we should be concerned about the carter baker commission and elaborated this is what their proposal was and this was what i want to ask you about they said we propose a uniform system of voter identification based on the real i d card or in the quadrant for people without a driver's license there's likely to be less discrimination against minorities if there is a single uniform id then a poll workers can apply multiple standards don't you think that a uniform identification requirement would in fact reduce discrimination against minorities at the polls thank you sir for your excellent question first of all let let me just say that i support have a requirement that for states to have a uniform statewide voter registration list that can be verified  and also from time to time cleaned out at the proper moment given citizens to write to to appeal if they been selectively per show i would support a uniform cleaning a look right now i think political parties maintain a better voter registration list in state party so i support that and we have duplicates all over the place because many states quite frankly don't have the resources required to clean up the electoral rolls up to election in terms of the restricted population amounts just who reside in florida i don't know if you can with the phoenix district i think she's moved but in florida in two thousand i'll never get the call she called me see how many forms of id you do i need to vote and i say want i mean at the time it was want she had her driver's license she had a voter registration card and she had to produce a utility bill so i do not support the restricted id requirements that often discriminate let me to rock and squeeze in one more comment here you yourself occasion where you don't have all these other types of the case i think would simplify the process and as individuals have testified would also reduce discrimination i think that's just an honest difference if it's not a another form of the poll tax if we can ensure that every american have access to that form to this bill only prescribe communications that a false and design with a specific intent to deny someone the right to vote there is no constitutional right to defraud people if you see any free speech implications of this organization but i think this bill has been carefully crafted and for me there's there's no doubt that congress has a compelling interest in protecting the integrity of elections and the right to vote by any means kinds of scepter practices and very met with the not only false but with the intent to defraud someone out of their vote exactly thank you this was ill you know there's an old saying that but the cure being worse than the disease we've heard of a handful of people who might the getting in the rolls getting on to the rolls improperly you kind of alluded to this in your previous testimony and answers do we have any estimate with the hands comparing the handful that are getting on it legally do we have any measure of how many people might not vote because their health department didn't complete the paperwork and for the election to give them a birth certificate or how many people might not vote because they couldn't come up with didn't want to come up with the twenty dollars that it might cost to process all the stuff that we have any estimate of the number of people who may be delayed lose their right to vote if we initiate some of these real id requirements while i don't have the the honest number in terms of millions of americans but we do know that it impacts the twenty two to five percent of americans but there's no question that the number of people who would not be able to vote who should be able to vote would certainly be more than the handful of people nationwide that illegally get on to the polls that you are in fact would be worse than the disease absolutely so with this cure being worse than with these there are certain groups that were just disproportionately impacted you i think you gave a list of people was it clear that this would have a disproportionate impact on certain groups obviously if people can't vote because they can't have come up with twenty dollars obviously that would have a disproportionate impact on low income americans did you read the list again of those who if you foresaw this will add the which groups might be adversely  affected the in two thousand and one the national commission on federal election reform recognize it between six and ten ten percent of americans do not have any form of state issued photo id driver's license and in the state of georgia was listening to one of the early questions of student obama according to the georgia chapter of the r p at thirty percent of georgians all to seventy five do not have a driver's license or car across the country more than three million americans with cincinnati ohio thank you mr chairman is the chairman knows i had the i was tasked with the responsibility in the last congress is to the chair of the constitution subcommittee to help to shepherd the voting rights act through the last congress and we work together in a very bipartisan manner and got the job done so i think i think my credibility relative to voting rights is well known at least among the members of this committee some of the allegations relative to ohio i have to admit professor i  disagree and i do thank you for your testimony however i believe there is no right that more fundamental than the right to vote and the protecting the integrity of the electoral process to ensure fair and free elections is critical to our democratic system of government part of ensuring fair and just elections is conducting non biased and independent oversight but i think that some of the allegation that you may relative to ohio i think  e you know i think it's very questionable whether they're unbiased or independent or accurate as the representative from the first district of ohio which is cincinnati i spent considerable time that a diverse urban and suburban polling locations in both two thousand and two thousand and four in two thousand and six and i disagree with your assessment that there was some type of republican conspiracy going on in fact it appears that any electoral irregularities in cuyahoga county for example which is the largest county in the state were were in fact caused by the incompetence of a democrat and i have with me a number of recent articles reporting the resignation of the executive director of the cuyahoga county board of elections michael do who again is a democrat because of one say that every step of the election process was undermined by by republicans and how is this type of biased reporting helpful in correcting the electoral problems that occurred in the past and ensure that they don't happen in the future and i also have to say  that i heard reports maybe you didn't but there were long lines in predominantly republican areas as well i heard about them over and over on election day that people were waiting in long lines there too i can see by shaking your head you didn't agree but if you could respond yes thank you what i was unable to what's in my written testimony i was unable to present in my oral testimony because we only have five minutes and this is to need very telling when that when in oberlin we had five our alliance one hundred people waiting and i received  i was in the community as we now call we used to call them suburban but exurban community which was where where there were many voting booths i received a phone call from the poll watcher in oberl saying even is there anything you can do what can i do i can't get through the secretary of state's office i can't get through i'd recognize likely because i've only a minute i tried to get through to the secretary of state i turned to my republican counterpart and said this is this is this isn't fair he said steal the elections that to me it's just beyond comprehension what one of the reasons that happen is i believe the second time that it was that we we were the the democrats had a slew of lawyers all over the state looking for and  because people like you and i i believe you mr mr shepard that you are you are someone who really wants free and fair elections but because we have shined a light on it and because the democrats this time the first time we were taken by surprise and i said we could now i'm a partisan democrat in ohio although as you know from my testimony previously i was not in other states we were taken by surprise a slew of lawyers came in we had a slew of people watching who were who were trained who were who were legally trained  saying that i think this is one issue where it really should be bipartisan majority of republicans and democrats agreeing that everybody ought to have the opportunity to vote every vote to count you know we have to make sure the people are citizens on there's some  disagreement to what extent we go there but it ought to be this was a democratic year it was a great democratic year a lot of republicans lost sometimes goes one way or the other but i really think in my heart of hearts in ohio that elections aren't stolen i mean the i'm if i can just say this has nothing to do with any of the bills that are present but if we could one of the things that happens when we go abroad and we're trying to promote democracy the cynicism abroad about our democracy is is it's painful to me and i agree with you we have to get our house in order and perhaps we could take a page from some of those late industrializing countries that have taken the election process in state and taken it away from a secretary of state that belongs to one party or another and put it in a bipartisan independent election council can pick us when someone's trying to be a leader of their party in the future and they want to does it live or alexion it with and there's other circumstantial evidence it's hard not to think that that's what they're doing thank you very much thank you  who would like to do away with robo calls and those mr nice you mention that in your testimony not doing away with completely but erroneous information robo calls as a general proposition do you think it would be constitutional do away with all robo calls i don't think it would be mr scott  somewhat similar question before and people for we were trying to strike that balance between the right to vote and other kinds of civil rights and civil liberties and i think this helps with the constitutional issue professor samberg close to her last statement here talking about a federal commission o i'm wondering whether anybody done any extensive research on the interplay between article one section two in article one section fo the constitution to try to try to more precisely define the outer limits of what we can do at the federal level body who is really going on at that issue aggressively and try to define what the outer limits of federal authority is in setting the qualifications voice elections of the most numerous branch of the state legislature so i guess whatever qualifications that a state put on to be eligible to be a voter for the state legislature under that provision would would be applicable to federal elections section four says the times places and manner of holding elections for senators and representatives shall be prescribed in each state by the legislature there there there and that sounds like a way out statement but then it goes on the just whack the la legs from under it saying but the congress may at any time by law may make alters such regulations except as to the places of choosing sentences this the language seems pretty clear to me but if you all have any any additional research i'm sure these brilliant lawyers who are seated behind you will provide by abiding to me so i appreciate you being here and approach the election process in america and i made some statements earlier about how important i believe the integrity of our system is and i sincerely and fervently believe that it goes beyond it goes beyond even the facts we should have every vote should be legitimate no one should be intimidated to keep keep them from voting i don't know how you actually get that written into law but i want that i want all of our electoral process to be as absolutely clean as it can be with  max amount of integrity in the system and if we can do that i said earlier that i'd be willing to sacrifice in that you know in a level playing field i'd be willing to put a majority at risk of presidency or risk because the people ought to make that decision and then the political parties then can adjust their politics to go back and compete for their majority or their presidency that's the way it's designed to be and if we lose the integrity it isn't just if it doesn't work right but if the american people lose their faith in it even if it works right then we've lost our constitutional republic so this is a very very important hearing and i regret that i wasn't able to listen to all the testimony the second panel of witnesses the nature of this deal being what it is and so i'm going to go and a little  maybe a haphazard fashion here but i'm very interested in this brazil's approach to this because you have a long and active in a fairly public involvement in these things and as i read through your testimony here i see on page four and i am and i agree with the statement there is no place in our democracy for last minute attempts and i would add to that or any attempts to purge eligible citizens just because they may vote for your opponent just exactly right well well said i support that statement  i'd ask as brazil and here's a philosophical question in a way is where i'm getting to and you were a supporter i'm going to just ask you were you a supporter of the reauthorization of the voting rights act we did last year yes or no opportunity to say so on the record and the motive behind that and i believe for the most part is pure but i call into question this statement right above that on the same page where it says and is quote from your testimony there is no place in our democracy for election practices that target citizens based on the color of their skin or their partisan affiliation that's correct and read on its face i agree with that but i'd point out that in the voting rights act and has objected to substantially by georgia that there are practices in the redistricting process that certainly affect the integrity of an individual's vote that are based upon race and my question to you is then then a couple circumstances  justice o'connor sensually suspended the fourteenth amendment for twenty five years and then for many of action cases until such time as we can put racism behind us and this reauthorization for twenty five years sentences of people in covered states and the districts within the within those in those states to the label of racism for twenty five years it occurs to me that a lot of the people that were labeled such and they originally passage of the voting rights act have passed into the next life and maybe their children their voting or their their children have moved out and so it looks to me like racism is hereditary like skin color by the analysis so this is a time that you think we can get to this point where we can erase the divisions and then not have classifications and not be adjusting our and not be redistricting based upon race let's do i hope in my lifetime we we do that that day but unfortunately we're not there today i know of too many instances even in my third of eligible black men have lost their both right to his words and you know i'm with you on that they have i'm with you on that that's that's a deplorable thing to see happen and there was earlier testimony that said that perhaps twenty of the purging of the votes there were maybe twenty percent error rate or at least a comment was made i believe by mr nel or do we have any numbers that tell about how many felons were actually allowed to vote by mistake if we're going to have errors on one side of the database did we have them on the other side that year where very few ceramic in fact is less than  we have made and i just recently saw the governor of florida agreement c n n and we've agreed to begin to work together on this issue so that we can get rid of the backlog in the state of florida many citizens and that's due to eligible to vote but because of the the law that tells  that they have to go back and reapply and they have to get a status report so we need to find ways to ensure that every eligible to move to this in can go to what it would occur to you as it has to me that with a computer databases that we have that we could actually have an interconnected computer database of all voter registration america for federal elections so that we could crush that database and eliminate the duplicate for the deceased the felons where it's appropriate according to law and also get that all cleaned up so that we don't have mistakes for federal elections would be something that you could support i would but congress first let's properly fund the help america vote act so the so we can ensure that we have the funds as you well know many states when they're looking for extra dollars to one area that they're not trying to put those extra dollars and i see that there was there were issues with people had difficulty managing the ballot understanding how to vote how to get to the polling place and the thing that seemed to be a comedy nominator that we all agreed on whether we're republicans independents democrats or the media was it the people that intended to vote for al gore had more difficulty getting the ballot figured out than those that were voting for them tending to vote for george bush could you speak to that as to why that would be the case well sir we still have a problem of literacy in this country we still have a problem with some americans don't have the transportation required to get to develop a look in some some communities in this country especially rural areas the polling site is often five ten miles away and in when americans as you well know stressed out work into three jobs those residents in palm beach county who go to mistakenly for pat buchanan or that they wanted to vote for al gore that was the butterfly ballot so i think we need to eliminate some of these structural barriers that the ballot arrows and other things and make it easy for people to get a new tone and a new day for justice in america and i thank the chairman i don't know with we would have had a hearing as quickly as this on the questions of issues of great concern that i believe need addressing i would like to define this hearing for what i think it is and i hope the witnesses will help me and correct me if i'm wrong i believe this is about voter suppression and vote would speak vigorously against it probably join in helping to define any legal basis to overcome or to eliminate voter fraud i have seen fraudulent activities happen whether it's stuffing the ballot whether it's the manipulating the count and that's fraudulent and i don't believe that we would count to that but let me go back to the two thousand election and to talk very quickly because i think intimidation is clear let me associate myself with chairman conyers this is a great bill and i'm looking forward to possibly the germane is of an amendment deal with an election about a holiday that and i also want to mention as i give examples of voter suppression two distinct examples purview and him in florida and in florida and in particular and this term if you have green brown in this room i don't think we could purview and in legitimately registered student voters who have been suppressed and let me remind you that they were suppressed again in two thousand and six when we marched again and so i hope as we look at this bill twelve eighty one that is a very fine framework that there will be some for main is to provide some pacific prohibitions against suppressing college vote and that would include individuals of all colors and creeds who happen to have a jurisdictional right to claim residency and vote in that area and i'm going to pose the question the other one was the felon question in florida and i'm going back again to two thousand they do because the spirit still in the heart might be germane in terms of some sort of credentialing thing of so called voter voter company whatever they may be whether they whether they whether it be a felon in this or purge lives live i want some kind of kind of criteria for them to get this in this challenge me gave rights to white america america is as well and other americans let me just say it gave rights to americans it had some pacific historical criteria but they they gave right they gave process  constitutional right of the right to vote and that is what we are trying to get at in this bill and that we can in any way we can in all manner deal with fraud if it is documented but it's a question for want to start with you mister these terms of your work there's no question that there's extensive evidence from the last three elections of voter intimidation and deceptive practices people the american waiting waiting waiting with foundation along with the end  in the ways committee for civil rights is put out three separate studies that go into the hundreds of incidents in all parts of many parts of the country of course were against fraud i think for the issue is a red herring there was just a by columbia university this week voter fraud of any type is extremely rare with only twenty four people convicted nationwide between two thousand to in two thousand and five and i can cite you report after report statistic after statistic  voter fraud in the states there is no documentation that would justify these kinds of voter id bills so we're totally in agreement and anything that makes it easier to vote that brings down the barriers that  prohibit people from voting and making sure that votes are counted and counted accurately were behind and i think this bill will be significantly a move in that direction mr king by the way i do applaud you for your work on the voting machines you demonstrated in the last congress and i hope you'll join the rush old and others if you haven't already i take very seriously a number of things that you said about how you want to remedy that situation i think you look at the machines and the disenfranchisement disenfranchisement by voting machines not just the aries but another different kind of voting machines and your issue of voter intimidation suppression provisional ballots the equitable distribution distribution of resources especially machines that we heard in the testimony regarding ohio in two thousand and four madam congresswoman i mentioned in my testimony the students at prayers you and i also know about students at florida a and m and i know of many other cases where students did particular problems in getting their absentee ballots even voting on campus saw even having the facilities available to them dama college in new hampshire the students there wanted to put a poll inside and they went to town council new hampshire is one of the states that has same day registration the students have problems actually getting the poll in closer to campus so because many of them did not have access to public transportation that would take them to the town hall place so i think we have to find ways to ensure that our young people have an opportunity to cast their ballots in with a request  ballot we requested in time but didn't come so this is a problem we need to focus on students the elderly the poor racial minorities language minorities people with disabilities you know as these elections become more and more polarized a nation is divided we have twenty nine so called safe states twenty one so called battleground swing states if you look at the incidence of vote deception voter intimidation vote arrest voter illegal voter purchased that taken place in these so called swing states where there's a deliberate attempt to try to suppress the vote just recently in michigan there was a state representative i believe his name was mr papa george who said that a lot of the win in michigan we have to suppress the vote in detroit now that's was a sexist thing in politics because you can get celebrities and others to tape a fifteen second twenty second message and then put it on you know right before the election and people get really excited saying hey i heard from bill clinton i heard from bill cosby  outgoing chairman aren't seeds of thought the egg let me the former chairman us committed myself to working across the partisan lines because i think we need to clean about this if we want to have the best democracy in the world in the world we want to watch the freedom in iraq and afghanistan  cincinnati ohio and the reason that i said that it looked like it was an organized suppression not just incompetence even though there were instances of incompetence was that in addition to the fact that there were there was a double track for poll workers to get to the secretary of state we could not get we could not get correct identification from the secretary of state the zero four election to the point that the president of our college nancy di had to create a chance for us to to figure out how did how to how to record and inform students of the voting rights so they would be disenfranchised in ocean ics when the league of women voters were trying to get the rules to publicize them and one of my students name can cause a who was waiting for one of our local newspapers call the secretary of state's office regularly to try to get clarification know when there could give you cry or for cation which means that if you are a student trying to vote and you're trying to do to find out how you can do that and under what conditions and if you're a student who moves from dorm to dorm and you don't have an identifier in a dress or in your eye when your photo identification card and that's what they said they were going to want then they in the end they did it means that you've missed the opportunity to register to vote because you don't you don't know the rules and you can happen to be from another state so that's why i said there was something going on that seems more than just mild incompetence and and it and it was in the secretary of state's office and that is my perception i chief culprit of the race is a path to maybe in the future the suppression of voters of all kinds elderly as well as students as well as others and as well as legal immigrants who may be categorized as undocumented just by the matrix their name and i hope that we can move forward on this legislation i go back to the german i thank you very much and thank you and thank you for the interesting questions from ohio we have the other another member of congress two thousand and six which party did better in ohio in two thousand and six certainly the democrats did better with party control the secretary of state's office two thousand and six a secretary of state's office controlled by republicans and they will control the secretary of state's office in two conclude that every step of the election process was undermined by the republican secretary of state's office and the many in his employ so you've got this grand conspiracy how in the heck i mean the secretary of state for eight years now running for governor still controlling the secretary of state's office if there is some grand number of kids state students came to him and claimed that their punch cards the two thousand and four election right there punch cards were pretty punch for president bush i asked the male student if you took down the names of any can state students who with whom he had spoken he said he had not i told him i was not certain what he could do he should call the secretary of state's office to call the democratic party stupidly i did not take down his name never occurred to me that might be sitting here today so you had the foresight to ask him to take down their names you didn't take down his name and yet you come in fro committee in congress some nameless guy with nameless students who had preplan charge for president bush in two thousand and four and cite that in your testimony and yet if it's if it's that grand a conspiracy how in the heck it can black lose so bad in two thousand and six there are two answers to that in the first is that i was invited here to talk about what it looked like to me on the ground what did i see what i see here i think contract an investigation i wasn't i wasn't invited to do research as to what happened in the election i invited here as someone who's on the ground and who is able to report what i saw and heard so that you folks can do that investigation i put that there and i put that it was an allegation and i put that was an allegation because i hadn't substantiated it but it certainly is troubling and somebody should be investigating a nameless guy was nameless students in front of the judiciary committee i'm sorry if i'm overseas and i'm in the election observer and someone has once there are elections certified i know the people  trained to say we take we if there are reports give us reports we'll look into it and we'll see whether or not the selection needs the procedures need need fixing i think in that same spirit i come to you today and say we're here we heard enormously disturbing things and my testimony today again is not the result of research on my part but to raise those issues that were troubling that we heard as far as the the how the secretary of  state do so poorly in the selection it was the same same question i had previously is the polls overwhelmingly show that he was going to do poorly and this time the democrats were a little more prepared they had lawyers all over the state you folks blessedly and i have to say from both sides of the aisle and as you know in my testimony i said i'm not saying all republicans i'm talking about particular individuals who did your party i believe no no honor that we had there were folks all over the state wh but it couldn't have been it couldn't have been that maybe the people who won in two thousand and four got more votes than the other individual the bell and those in two thousand and sixty one got more votes than the other so it could have been that simple could it could have been that simple accept that there were so many irregularities and i'm someone who was invited here ticks to inform you of all those are regularities so that if you investigate them and you find this is a pattern other places where there are swing states where there is where this disclosed to contest elect  so i'm so happy the professor sandburg risk here this afternoon are fine but certainly one of our most important contributors is the gentleman from alabama then that we've had forty two years of improving conduct under the voting rights act so perhaps going to longer need it proposition obviously we're less racist country than we used to be people don't discriminate as much as they w the panel think that we don't need to meddle seven because of that i think that makes my point let me ask you all several questions regarding the scope of this hearing voter i d we have a number of people who believe in prosecutions have been brought anywhere in the country in the last five years based on people walking into a polling place claiming to be someone they're not of this apartment p eleven and that would be eleven this brazil yes in a span of seven years which is an average of a little bit more than one here and of course normally this institution doesn't try to pass or typically we don't try to regulate conduct that yields one known violation a year as i recall which i'm more conservative than that let me ask you another set of questions and maybe i'm just uninformed about this not just ask the whole panel we know of all of the issues raised erection irregularities in florida in the year two thousand we know of the one hundred seventy nine thousand eight hundred fifty five ballots that were invalidated to well you know if any looking at established democracies i countries having their first election looking at the countries around the world are established democracies do we know of another country in the last six or seven years where the presidency or the leadership of that country has resulted from an election w about how we want to be a model for the rest of the world and we say we are a model for the rest of the world but over the last twenty five years in particular and it's certainly not just republican versus democrat because i certainly am old enough to remember what it was like in the fifty's and history that we should reform it and i hope this committee will move forward on it but i think mexico had problems in the last presidential election and the and the counter to that so i thought someone might say mexico the l a p l issue is there was an independent  electoral commission that was appointed a minimum in the mexico that closely spruce produce proof not the process and issued a finding that despite much controversy there was actual no real evidence of contamination chin chin chin they won the panel know of an independent  learning this process i'm talking about established democracies who have a history of at least twenty five thirty fifty seventy years i don't know of another instance when the election of the president of the chancellor the prime minister and the summer question do any of normally what congress tries to do and what public policy aims to do is to try to find areas where there are major problems and the step in and address those is what we try to do with our regulatory reach it seems to me the biggest problem that we have with elections in this country is that significant numbers of people who are eligible to vote are still not registered to vote and my state of alabama your s fifty eight percent of the blacks who are eligible to vote registered consistent across the south that strikes me as a somewhat important problem policymakers standpoint on the flipside of that i think we have some general agreement in this room that we know of scattered instances where people walk in the polling places claiming to be john jones one that merits met we know of scattered instances when people are right killer link engaging and that kind of fraud that some people want to regulate the voter id doesn't make sense all of you that we should be aiming our laws and our policy toward what appears to be the bigger problem and says something that appears to be an aberration absolutely we will be able to move on this matter and document some of the very disparate numbers that have been exchanged here today  wouldn't it be nice to know accurately the best to the best of our ability to actually numbers of people who have committed from or who have been denied the vote or have tried to vote more than once or are in the immigrant attempted voting  of these things do have some numbers members behind them and i think the department of justice has has a huge responsibility in that area and so  chance to ask the first panel some questions and but so i'm just i just want to say quite clearly i want to i want to thank all the witnesses who come forward so eloquently and i want to thank the chair think this is one of the most fundamental and rudimentary problems in our society and we've really got to focus our attention on getting more people participate not democracy not straining at it that on who may or may not have voted when they weren't who they said they were because i think while that may be a problem the parameters of the bill that we have in front of us unless we look at this incentives in a larger scope scope we tend to just the balloting process it's been observed here there actually we have hundreds if not thousands of different systems going because of the federal state  other materials i thank you on more your devoted commitment to this subject matter and to your active substantive