committee on natural resources will come to order i welcome our panelists today and i thank them very much for making the time to come before our committee it's specially good a former colleague of ours pat williams with whom many of us have served on this committee welcome you back to the committee as well as many of you know i help from the state of west virginia well west it's part of its name the mention of mass state does not really  e quite the same images that come in mind when we think of the west and while my home state is not part of the region that qualifies as the west i venture to say that we are probably more alike than we different i come from a district where certain counties have as much a federal ownership as do some counties in the west where that is not the case the majority of land in southern west virginia is owned by absentee corporations logging in mining have shaped our hills in our communities and we live with their legacy but more importantly i think the people west virginian the people of the west have an almost instinctive connection to their landscape their homeland rather it is the red clay soil of the southwest the hollers of appalachia or the jagged edges of the rockies our connection to the land is deep and it is a we share a desire to live and work in nature's glory a desire that is driving changes in my state just as it is driving changes in the west clean air clean water open space extraordinary landscapes in a pursuit of the american dream have drawn the young man to go west for centuries today the opportunities to step out your door and hike among red rocks to seek peace and in force or deficient a mountain stream or creating a new type of western pioneer the people who have come to testify here today are showing that a healthy economy can grow can grow in harmony with a commitment to conservation again i want to thank the panelists now i look forward to discussion about what positive role this committee can play in helping your efforts in the four act i recognize in those who travel to far it is my honor to recognize the distinguished ranking member mr bishop for opening statement he may have owned by the federal government but at the same time my district is commonly defined as being ninety percent urban so i approach this issue of the of the above in west based on my professional experience of twenty eight years in the public school teacher i support public policies that are good for kids and for parents most states are greatly challenging funding public education but this has reached a crisis level in some states particularly in the west if you draw an imaginary line and from montana down to new mexico the twelve states that are west of that line are public land states fifty two percent of all their land is controlled by the federal government as opposed to four percent for the rest of you if one does not live between the rockies and the cascades and attempts to create a public policy in that area it is really impossible to fully understand this impact the fifteen states with the slowest growth rate in funding education eleven our public plan states the fifteen states with the largest class size nine of those are public land states the western public land states collect more taxes in federal state and local taxes than the rest of this nation and they spend a greater portion of their budgets on education than the rest of the nation but they simply cannot make it work and the only common denominator in this situation is the amount of land owned by the federal government each of these struggling western states if the federal land were taxed at the lowest possible rate the greenspace rate it would generate four billion dollars a year in revenue nationwide in my state of utah if the federal government paid the lowest average tax for this land it would generate two hundred fourteen million dollars of year which under our state funding formula one hundred sixteen million dollars a year would go to education if my state had that type of money we could pay decent salaries teachers reduce western class size and have enough money left over to fully fund all the federal programs in education and tell the federal government to take no child left behind and shove it this funding inequity was not supposed to happen if one reads the  acts of every western state except why this was not supposed to be the way western lands were treated congress changes fasi almost sixty years ago starting in the one nine hundred fifty s we changed our approach to western lands until today we accept this as the situation of the norm we should not  accept the situation is to condemn my fellow teachers to a life of poverty my first my first check my first salary was eight thousand dollars a year as a teacher twenty eight years later if i did enough stops i could maybe get it up to forty grand a year and if we accept this policy it also takes my grandkids into a second rate education situation i land policies for kids and those who wish to acquiesce to the status quo or build new paradigms based on technology and tourism simply exacerbate the situation tourism will not fund education in the west the future of our kids and their education depends on creating a more profitable business that pays taxes employees their parents we must indeed need a new paradigm shift but one that accept the status quo is simply unacceptable let me cite one new business in san juan county in utah can't county that is ranked israel recently ranks when the poorest in the nation listen valley coppermine owned and operated by the constellation copper company began production last year this mine is expected to produce the following tax revenues in this year two thousand and seven assuming the copper rate stays basically where it is today property taxes be seven hundred eighty thousand severance tax one point two million utah sales tax two point eight million income in the federal and state income tax both federal state eight million dollars  total tax for this year of thirteen point one million dollars an estimated ten year lifespan of the mine would assume one hundred thirty one million dollars in taxes tourism and high tech cannot equate to this level of potential funding and to ignore this reality hurts education of western kids and it is unacceptable the mines payroll will be estimated that ten point two million dollars cutting benefits over a ten year life span that's approximately hundred two million dollars in wages and benefits that equates to an annual wage of seventy thr benefits excluding benefits a basic wage of fifty four thousand per employee the average hourly rate between twelve and twenty one dollars per hour not including benefits and depending on the position and skill level i understand this is approximately twice the going rate for tourism industry not including the benefit packages which the mine offers the employees quitting health dental life for one kick cetera which the tourism industry simply cannot match mine employees will pay income taxes on their wages and sales taxes their personal purchases if we assume an average catch a practice bracket of twenty five percent for the employees that is roughly two million dollars annually in income taxes and twenty million dollars over a ten year span at the mine this year alone the mine anticipates the purchase is approximately forty five million dollars in goods and services locally over a ten year lifespan that's four hundred fifty million dollars in purchases goods and services this demand for goods and services creates secondary jobs contractors fuel truck driver salesman suppliers manufacturers not in not including the demand for local goods and services created by the supposable income of employees spend on food and clothing and housing and transportation local communities a paradigm shift that there's not recognize the need of this type of industry in the western balance hurts kids and is unacceptable besides these powerful economic arguments the miners brought a new set of educational professionals to rural western communities of monticello these include that are all just mining engineers process engineers geologist environmental engineers accountants and many of them with kids and most of them are involved in the community it brings an awareness indeed a new perspective to the communities that does not exist previously which enhances the educational experience available to local kids and adults alike the mine has established local scholarships for high school graduates pursuing a college education encourages job training for graduates who seek employment either at the mine or with one of its suppliers and for those graduates who wish to remain in or near their real western communities with roots the diverse opportunities are provided a paradigm shift that does not provide real jobs for these kids the west hurt those kids and is simply unacceptable this chairman the future of our kids and their education in the west depends on new industries like the bally copper mine i challenge the presenters today to tell me how they will help education in the twelve public land states really help them and not with simply idealistic numbers and i also challenge the presenters today to recognize the west is more than the recreational playground of the east and my friends and family deserve the chance to live the american dream of ownership good jobs and control their own death needs without the harris meant the heavy hand of the federal government already all right below us and i look forward to working with you mr chairman on the policies that promote th i bet you wish don young was here right now don't you  from left or right as they're there sitting at a table from our left or right is congressman greg walden from oregon second district congressman dentistry burke from montana and congressman devin units from california twenty first street yeah man you're welcome to proceed as you wish each will be recognized for five minutes and that statement will be made part of the record thank you very much mr chairman i'm greg walden i represent the people of oregon's best second district in the united states house of representatives i appreciate your holding this hearing today on last and before i get into my prepared remarks i would be remiss if i didn't make the top of the agenda the need to ask for your earliest consideration on the hearing and action on h r seventeen the reauthorization of the secure a county roads and schools legislation of which you are a sponsor as you were last year counties in much of the west are suffering dramatic cuts in their budgets right now teachers are being given pink slips libraries are going to close in the most populous county in my district in april if we don't act in this congress to keep a promise that has been made to these counties since theodore roosevelt basically created the forest reserves honored years ago so i would encourage earliest possible consideration this committee as we did in two thousand and five to move that legislation forward the fact that the west is changing is certainly not a new revelation changing technologies economies and demographics of always affected the social political and even natural landscape in some cases these changes are beneficial to the environment and the human condition and in some cases they're not for example as federal grazing allotments disappear due to increased litigation and regulation many ranchers find that they don't have enough of their own private base property to run a herd of sufficient size to remain profitable consequently those ranchers then subdivide and sell their land for an unsustainable revenue stream and the west loses another price piece of its prized open space it's a true lose lose situation the influence that politicians and federal employees in washington d c have over the lives of westerners through land regulation is unimaginable to many in the east in my own oregon district more than fifty percent of the land base is owned by the federal government as laws and regulations concerning federal land management are turned out from within the beltway westerners feel their impact most intently i'd like to name just a few of the laws which are federal land management agencies and local communities must deal with the forest and range seventy eight the wilderness act of sixty four and the national environmental policy act of sixty nine the federal advisory committee act of seventy two the endangered species act of seventy three in the clean water act of seventy seven just to name a few now individually each of these laws can provide important environmental safeguards but collectively they intertwine and overlap in often contradictory ways that make it nearly impossible for federal land managers local elected officials partnership groups and private citizens to navigate even simple decisions or been able to lawsuits on procedural grounds and the result is legal gridlock in a speech he delivered in salt lake city one hundred years ago president theodore roosevelt spoke of the purpose of the forest reserves public lands and the need for local support to ensure this new federal policy would work he said and i quote almost every industry depends in some more or less vital way upon the preservation of the forests and while citizens die the government and the nation do not die and we are bound in dealing with the forest to exercise the foresight necessary to use them now but to use them in such ways as were always also keep them for those who are to come after us the first great objective of the forest reserves is of course according to president theodore roosevelt the first gr object of the whole land policy of the united states the creation of homes the favoring of the homemaker those were his words when he created the forest reserves in one thousand nine hundred six the national forests in my district produced a timber sale program of two point two six billion board feet is a value of about two hundred thirteen million dollars a quarter of which went to the local communities for schools and roads twenty years later in two thousand and six the timber sale volume was a mere one hundred ninety eight million board feet with revenues of seventeen million dollars less than ten percent of the one thousand nine hundred six levels the loss of family wage jobs and the impacts on many local economies and their basic community infrastructure has been dramatic the collapse of the timber sale program and the resulting job losses were felt across the nation in counties near national forces can be seen in the first chart i have here and your nation right federal land harvest averaged about eleven billion board feet for decades dropping to below two billion board feet in the one nine hundred ninety s now i road from national forests in the united states became available did americans consume less wood products the answer obviously is no as we can see in the second chart this need for wood was met by increasing imports to record levels largely from countries with poor environmental policies and safeguards were job losses in rural america necessary is it necessary for us to ship our jobs overseas and then rely on foreign natural resources from countries that lacking sound byron menal standards as you can see on the third chart long before one thousand nine hundred six national forest growth have begun to exceed harvest getting in the one nine hundred thirty s in fact on the fourth chart it's evident that not only has growth exceeded harvest but mortality in our forces exceeded harvest as well many more trees are dying on our national forests that are being harvested the rest of the story you unless you've been a hermit for the last few years was not just predictable but inevitable so on the fifth chart you can see that the explosive increase in forest fuels combined with drought has resulted in a huge increase in the number and size of catastrophic wildfires to a record breaking ten million acres last year and we spend a billion and a half of federal taxpayer dollars to extinguish these fires teddy roosevelt was many things but principal among them he was a man of action and if he were here to join us today i hardly believe you would be pleased to know that one hundred ninety million acres of his federal forest reserves are now subject to catastrophic wildfire disease and bug and station let us not defend a system that allows a symphony us up in court for years while bugs devour our forests and fires ravage our communities and pollute our air sheds let us not defend a system so complicated that it takes three times longer to remove a burned dead tree than to rebuild the pentagon and let us not forget that we have the power and the responsibility to correct things too often my colleagues in congress blame agencies in the courts for what we see as wrong and yet where the writers of the laws were the ones in power to solve problems the time has come for us to do the heavy lifting finally healthy communities healthy for us and healthy range lands do go hand in hand if we're to see broad and long term stewardship success congress must step up to the plate and pass laws allow for thoughtful quick and active stewardship of our federal lands in my lifetime i've seen much change in the west but there's also been much that's remained constant a general sense of individual responsibility and independence and neighborly kindness a strong right there i think and a genuine appreciation respect for the natural environment as your committee and the rest of us in washington discuss issues and pass laws that affect the west may we always be mindful that our actions often we in the basic strengths that make the west uniquely the west i thank you for holding this hearing and for your indulgence with my testimony this morning mr chairman of our background pretty proud of where we want to go in the future and that's i guess what i want to talk a little bit today and that is the first thing that chasm that has been created between the old economy in the new  economy by definition or by description i was told today that the hearing was to highlight the positive impact of the ongoing trends of sound resource conservation with a robust economic development unfortunately i don't necessarily want to be the skunk in the in the party but the difficulties or the realities or perhaps even the myth that there is robust economic development is perhaps truly a myth the difficulty is the immutable laws of government or if it moves tax it if it still moves regulate it and when it finally quits moving subsidize it we find ourselves in a situation where the energy industries over the course of the last centuries have been the economic economic engine that have driven this country but we've either taxed it or regulated it extinction i hope that the future of this committee will be to look at the opportunities to break down some of the barriers as i think we have done within the state of montana and i'm honored to be sitting in front of two gentlemen that i know are going to talk a little bit about montana one is governor schweitzer in the other is former congressman pat williams who i remember when i staff this committee twenty five years ago he was the last member of the and he told me this morning that they added a seat for him he was so far down in seniority and you're still here congressman ray hall you blasted off all those years what we did in montana that i think that the the federal government could learn from is a couple of different aspects one of which is we created a consensus council and i've introduced legislation that hasn't gotten very far i hope you'll take a look at it mr chairman the consensus council is a recognition that energy policy but then this country if we even have one is very emotional and controversial people support reform as long as it doesn't change anything if you begin to talk about the endangered species act people see bogeymen whether it's working or not we don't want to make the appropriate changes we look at the clean water laws and make a determination are they in fact keeping us from developing sensible alternatives to energy and the difficulty is oftentimes the laws and regulations that are being created  conflicting and duplicative the consensus council gives us an opportunity both at the at the currently at the state level hopefully at the federal level of an opportunity to sit down and fairly digging in the corners and sue each other out of those corners to find commonality so we can actually move forward with some kind of a sensible policy a holistic approach if you want to call it that to energy policy because frankly one or another we're going to need the energy in this country that's one of those truisms that's going to occur it's just as true as supply and demand and the worst decisions are made on energy policy when it's made in the crisis situation you're in the middle of a gas crisis during the middle of blackouts or brownouts we've all been a part of that and we know that some of the worst decisions are made during those periods the second thing we did in montana that i think is necessary both at the presidential and executive level but also with the congressional level is to take a look at the conflicting agencies and policies and s politics aside republicans and democrats alike and make a determination do we have too much review and if so rather than trying to portray it as lessening the opportunity for the public to have i say we want the same level of input but we only want to go through one agency that when i was lieutenant governor in montana we had three agencies that reviewed energy policy we had a department of health department state lands and the department of natural resources that did not make sense one agency would get done reviewing it would move to the second it would make a change the first one had to go all of that change by the time you get to the third well time is money that's another one of the truisms people make decisions based upon economics that is not necessarily the right thing to do but it's a fact and so the difficulty we have in the state of montana is we get to the altar but we never quite see the valves we've got so many rules and so many regulations and so many laws that are conflicting that ultimately businesses throw up their hands and say it's not worth it one of the interesting scenarios as we always have a tendency to want to talk about outsourcing without looking at the true cost or the true reason for the outsourcing which is the basis of the discussion  think the committee ought to spend a lot of time on and that is making a determination are the costs outweigh the benefits in the united states and are we becoming dependent on foreign sources because we have created barriers for sound environmental and economic policy of natural resource production so i think there's a lot of things that this committee can look that i would rather than look at the cup as half full look at this half empty congressman don't come to washington d c and congresswoman to fix things that are going right they fix those that are going wrong so rather than trying to highlight the positives i think that we really need to get down to the basics of what is creating the problem in this country do we have an energy policy can really fix it by eliminating much of the duplications and the consensus building process is something that i hope this committee will seriously look at through legislation thank you thank you mr chairman i appreciate the opportunity to testify today on the evolving west as you know the west was built by rugged individuals many of whom worked in the forest hard rock mining irrigated agriculture and public land ranching and the production of fossil fuels these folks are enter goal in helping it states win two world wars put a man on the moon and generate energy resources for a robust economy these folks are proud to call the west home for generations they have treasured their natural resources not only for economic activity but for recreational social and cultural pursuits they strongly feel that they can better be better stewards of the land than someone who reads about the west in the new york times or works from an environmental law office in washington d c the west is changing but much by force so called environmental organizations have waged aggressive fund raising campaign and endless litigation to scare people and judges about environmental degradation these practices and they're not in my backyard campaign to significantly raise the costs associated with economic development played a huge role in outsourcing and turn traditional western recreational pursuits upside down and its most basic terms the west is experiencing the consequences of federal state and local government policies that limit economic development by the way  of by way of example in two thousand and five it was reported that more than thirty environmental and regulatory impairments were stalling domestic natural gas auction yet we continue to experience significant growth in demand that said it may come as a price to many americans that approximately forty percent of our domestic supply of natural gas is off limits federal laws including the coastal zone management act endangered species act put restrictions and barriers that are an impediment to develop these essential resources radical environmentalists as well as many other extremist activist groups spearheaded opposition to policies that benefit americans some of this is like coal fired power plants plants that can be you can use clean coal technology that can be funded by our domestic supplies of coal not only in the west but even in your state of west virginia mr chairman close to home they've opposed new water supplies water storage facilities and even one of our mentalist went on to say that this was the dumbest dam in america down in my district this was truly an enlightening comment for those of us that don't have enough water in the  west some of the environmental groups have chosen to elevate salmon over the livelihood of my constituents some folks have said that the pending san joaquin river settlement which will be before your committee mr chairman is a model of collaboration throughout the west they are true collaboration happens when parties try to work together from the beginning not through litigation and an activist judge i might add that the restoration may end up costing the taxpayers two and a half billion dollars and will result in no fish returning back to the river that they are trying to re wet and restore a chinook salmon run to an app billion dollars later they'll be no salmon it is issues like these that have darn near destroyed the economy in my district and left my constituents shell shocked folks are afraid to open businesses develop a farm or build necessary public infrastructure under the fear of being sued we are a battered community on the brink of extinction some of this room will claim that this is an exaggeration but the congressional research service has provided us facts three years ago myself and six of my colleagues in a bipartisan effort asked the c r s f d r s to do a report on our area this is this area is greater than ten states and has a population greater than twenty three states that has the highest unemployment rate of any state in the lowest per capita income additionally the region has the highest percentage of people living below the poverty line and the worst air quality in the nation and not to mention that doctors per hundred thousand people are lower than any other state in the country mr chairman i request that the study be included in the record i think it's a study that's worthwhile to have in the record and i'd like to put up a chart now that compares the san joaquin valley to appalachian which is up there now and we can see that there's two thousand dollars less per capita spent federal money spent below the national average that's one thousand dollars less in the appalachian region furthermore the poverty rate is nearly ten percent higher and seven percent higher than the appalachian region consequently it defies imagination why some folks here today advocate policies that will vilify my constituents and send their jobs to third world countries with abysmal environmental records while we adopt environmental policies in states that sort arrogated agriculture livestock grazing in public lands we increase the drive for environmentally destructive burning and clearing the fragile rain forests and brazil in asia our country has the best environmental record in the world and it proves every day i suggest that those who have the west under siege turn their sights on nations that intentionally destroy the environment for economic gain and give my constituents the credit they deserve for being good stewards of the land mr chairman collaboration is great only when people work together for the beginning with the so called collaboration of the environmental movement threatens to create two thank you chairman or a hall and congressman bishop in other members for holding today's hearing on the relationship between western communities and natural resources on public lands in my home state of california a human environmental tragedy of nk of incredible proportions is brewing in our national forests unless action is taken to restore forest health a century of fire suppression and now decades of legal restrictions on forest thinning have left for us overcrowded and susceptible to catastrophic wildfire in parts of my district where fifty to seventy trees per acre were the historic norm there are now five hundred seven hundred trees per acre approximately ten times as many modern fires are not like the natural low intensity fires which burned close to the ground today fires and golf the entire force from the floor to the canopy destroying virtually everything in their path for example the two thousand three southern california fire destroyed seven hundred fifty thousand acres when led to thirty fatalities we desperately need to mechanically then these unhealthy stands if we are the protect at risk communities and watersheds a hands off approach the forestry has brought year after year of this story devastation taxpayers now pay billions of dollars t fight fires that could have been prevented through active force thinning forest management traditionally brought revenues into the treasury and shared twenty five percent of proceeds with county schools  roads but appeals and lawsuits have virtually halted anything from occurring and rural schools have been devastated as a result and less secure rural schools a temporary program designed to rescue counties from declining thinning receipts is reauthorized counties like siskiyou county in my district will experience a ninety one percent cut from what they receive under current law the good news is the face of the environmental catastrophe is that westerners are taking matters into their own hands in the early  a citizens group consisting of local environmentalist first professionals and elected officials met at the nearby public library to see common ground this organization dubbed the quincy library group was founded upon the realization that the environment local communities and forest jobs have a mutually beneficial relationship they concluded that protecting us and communities would be impossible without mechanically thinning unhealthy for stance the program they developed with design to pay for itself by supplementing too by supplying wood products to local males this grass roots vision was turned into bipartisan legislation which i sponsored along with senator dianne feinstein the g members walk the halls of congress campaigning there legislation as a solution to the kimber wars that had torn western communities apart congress responded by passing th legislation on a near unanimous vote and the bill was signed into law by president clinton in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight it was thought that the five year q l jeep pilot program could be expanded spanned it throughout the west but regrettably it has been to a large extent held up by a small group of four six three missed however the work that has been d emonstrated that the keel l g concepts are beneficial for the forest and local community catastrophic fire that ran into q l g type areas drop to the fourth floor to mimic a more historically consistent fire mr chairman thank you again for holding today's hearing and for allowing me to take to testify thank our colleagues from being before the committee today and will now proceed to our next panel the committee is very happy to have with us today the governor of the state of montana branch writes for governor schweitzer became the twenty third governor of the great state of montana on january third two thousand and five he was raised on his parents registered cattle ranch in that youth basin in montana his parents still farm their guys are here and b s degree in international agronomy from colorado state university and later in a master sas degree in source it's from montana state university it's very clear to the nation in fact it to governor has promoted a vision for your state that capitalizes on the job opportunities in environmental restoration and the economic importance of resource conservation governor were very appreciative that you took the time and effort to be with us today we welcome you thank you chairman ray how i thank you ranking member of this ship and if i may as a point of privilege even though i have very little here i'd like to say hello to my my neighbor from south dakota stephanie i am and indeed honored to be before you here today and i heard mention of my hero teddy roosevelt who indeed was a republican president but he understood one hundred years ago that the greatest legacy that we can grant to the next generation is clean water clean air and open spaces for one hundred years democrats and republicans alike can agree that the greatest value greatest american value is to offer the next generation a clean environment so i would suggest before we go into anything else let us make sure that we maintain these lands that president roosevelt understood were important to pass along to the next generation let us not sell them to half years ago my good friend john bolen juror who is a republican and myself decided that we would try a new role for politicians in montana we would work together so as a democrat and a republican we ran together governor and lieutenant governor and we simply asked the people of montana whether they agreed with us that democrats or republicans could agree on some principles so far they've said yes when the first official expedition came to montana lewis and clark came to montana and they described in their journals the remarkable prairie's the wonderful rivers the mountains the wildlife and then they described the crow the  each and they found that the people who have lived on that land for ten thousand years have a notion about sustainability their leaders elders always consider not just the next generation when they make a decision not just their grandchildren and their grandchildren's children they consider the consequences for seven generations and with that kind of leadership they were able to live in the western united states sustainably for ten thousand years we could learn a thing or two from the people who've lived there for so long later the settlers came first the miners the loggers the ranchers and then the homesteaders like my grandparents they came here with nothing more than the clothes on their back and high hopes and faith in god and the belief that they could make their way on this rugged landscape many were successful most were not the miners came in many cases not to stay but to hit it rich and go home so it shouldn't surprise us that as we look across the landscape of the rocky mountains in the western united states we find many examples of where we mined in the wrong way we have learned from those mistakes in the past and indeed we found that there is good economic opportunities in cleaning up the mistakes that have been made in the past while we clean up some of these minor mistakes and while we log in e a much more sustainable way we're finding that these technologies can be exploited around the world we're finding that these technologies that we're developing are cherished other economies i've been to more than thirty countries around the world and i found that the kinds of mistakes that we've made in the western united states have been made even sooner in places in asia and europe and this sustainable restoration a commie that we're developing in the western united states is not only good for business in montana it's good and good for business around the world as we export these technologies over one hundred years ago montana was coined the treasure state and those who first called us the treasure state called us the treasure state because we have gold silver platinum and palladium and more coal than any other state we have oil we have gas but more recently during the last couple of decades we found that the real treasure wasn't the minerals that are contained in the mountain but but the mountains themselves the rivers the open spaces the wildlife in fact montana the economy is growing we have the lowest unemployment in history we've created more than a thousand jobs per month for the last twenty four months we have the eighth lowest taxes in america and people are coming in large numbers to montana because of our quality of life they come there because we have safe communities good schools abundant opportunities for hunting fishing camping they start businesses they prosper and they build communities we are changing our economy in montana and it is good for business in montana why we have made mistakes in the past we're recognizing that we will develop energy resources for the future in montana yes we are mining gold and silver and we are the only source of platinum and palladium in the western hemisphere at the same time we're developing oil and gas for one of two states that increased our oil production during the last year we're also developing a clear resources but we will develop the coal resources in montana on our own terms we ask that we have a cap and trade system for carbon dioxide we that you give us the tools to produce clean coal technology so that we can produce not only electricity for this country but also clean fuels ultra clean diesel fuel and aviation fuel coming directly from our coal resources we refuse to be the boiler rooms of this country but as your partners we will produce the energy for the future and we will continue we will continue to have sustainable communities in much the same way as the people who have occupied our lands for ten thousand years thank you for this opportunity thank you governor i note that you were montana's first democratic governor since one thousand nine hundred eighty i didn't realize montana was in the dark former colleague of ours in the congress pat way ems who's now the senior fellow and regional policy associate at the center for rocky mountain west is an educator or was montana's united states congressman from one nine hundred seventy nine ninety seven also former member of montana state legislature he was majority whip in the congress and chairman the post secondary education committee he serves on the board of directors for the national association of governing boards of universities and colleges national association of job corps u s education which is sallie mae and the president's advisory commission for travel colleges that indeed it is like to welcome you back to your old stomping grounds and you're free to proceed as you wish chairman i always find this committee interesting during my eighteen years nine terms here and i find it equally interesting this morning the five good republicans three of them friends of mine who and the others i just haven't had the luxury of knowing yet who preceded governor schweitzer and i talked about a west that i don't recognize but they talk about the west that they were talking about twenty years ago on this committee i know the title of these hearings the evolving west we all need to evolve with it when bob dylan america one of the america's great poets wrote the words the times they are a changing he could have been referring to the west days west has undergone a significant transition our economy population and culture have changed and historic threshold has been crossed particularly in the states of the rocky mountains the west is no longer what it was nor are we who live there what we once were we now live in  last most americans know the story of the old west it was the stuff of myth and accurate but comfortable you know myths have a way of arresting at ambiguity a hollywood movie producer and director john ford is the guy that produced wagon train and fort apache and the man is shot liberty valance was once asked toward the end of his life mr ford did you show the west the way it was he said  hell no i showed it the way it should have been for two centuries that old west including montana which is the governor is noted we once proudly called the treasury state and then economy based on  timber and mining oil and gas most of the new west including montana which now with equal reprised we refer to as the last best place has made the transition from that old extract of economy and culture to a new one based on conservation restauration high tech and services like health care and construction and design and architects that are the economy the extract economy experienced its significant decline because of increasing productivity i don't hire people like they used to worldwide competition the international setting of commodity prices and a fairly recent national region wide world wide environmental ethic the west and its own industries cannot return to the heydays of yesteryear even if we wanted them to the transition was and its effects continue to be make no mistake about it wrenching people in places still feel the displacements in the dislocations whether that will be an asset or a liability depends at least in part on purposeful leadership including from the members of this committee but we cannot deny the effects and power of the marketplace the throes of the transition have passed and it is today's west that is our future we can rail against it we can wring our hands and be swallowed or we can guide it and prosper yes subdivisions have replaced some sawmills but our economy is healthier due to this new economic diversity taking care not to pave ourselves over with malls and parking lots we westerners now realize that we can protect the lands ability to sustain us safeguarding watersheds and corridors preserving our parks and playgrounds and ensuring decent wages and working conditions are tall orders but we can meet the challenges if at home we set aside paranoia and intolerance and recognize that government at all levels can be an asset and if here on capitol hill you will strive particularly in this committee as you are this morning to understand today's west one of the markers the indicators of today's west is the sharply rising number of organizations and initiatives that are going on out that way in my written testimony i have listed only some but you will notice they take up four pages of the testimony that i've submitted to you i would like to pay particular attention quick mention to just five and sonoran institute from which you will hear later the you know all center for public policy named for the former chairman of this committee mole and his brother former secretary of interior stu most memory hangs on this wall and in this rooms name another is the wallace stegner center at the university of utah and then if i may two of which i am affiliated the o'connor center for the rocky mountain west which is a real western regional studies center located at the university of montana and the final one i want to mention is brand new it's called western progress gov and i've been engaged in the development of that it's a new public policy advocacy center with new offices in phoenix denver and missoula montana it's a nonpartisan nonprofit organization dedicated to the coordination in advance months of progressive policy solutions throughout the eight bates of the rocky mountain west all of these relatively new form groups reflect not only on the west traditional role as an incubator of ideas but also reflective of a flourishing prosperous maturing region look at the personal income of the people living in and around the city regions of the west is growing far faster than the national averages of people living anywhere else in america during this decade the states of the rockies have experienced ten percent population growth it's five and a half nationally it serves us well don't understand where and why those gains are happening population and income growth are occurring in the mid size and smaller cities that are located near natural beauty national parks open space river and lakes state parks recreation areas including wilderness areas that's where people are moving in the west the rocky mountain west has transition to an amenities economy the irony should not be missed our natural resources are still leading the way for our growth but this time it is the unscarred landscape that provides the economic engine that is driving our significant and historically high growth in population and income one of the most unusual aspects about that amenities economy is that it is also footloose that's one of the signatures of the west transition footloose jobs or jobs that follow people after two centuries in the west of people having to chase jobs in the goldfields in the oil and gas asked fields in the woods in the copper and silver mines you had to go to where the project was to get the job not today and most important points that i hope to leave with you today is that of the west amenities autonomy generating footloose jobs the growth and prosperity in this region is indisputable the occurring closest to the landscape that the most natural beauty in the entire west much of which is represented on this committee there are eighty counties with geographic centers within forty miles of a major national park such as rocky mountain or capitol reef and archer's or yellowstone and glacier carlsbad people are swarming into the west into the vicinities of natural wonders beauty cleanliness in the the new mantra might be don't build it and they will come this is not of course to suggest that development including extractive development in the states of the rockies should or will cease rather it is simply to draw this committee's attention to an important aspect of the evolving west and to suggest that future development must meet the economic imperative respecting our land air and water as i move toward my close i asked that this committee in the congress become more attentive increasingly attentive to the priorities or at least some of us we believe a majority significant majority who live in the west i believe frankly that for more than a decade congressional understanding of the west has been lacking and i say with respect worse congressional action or none actions have actually been detrimental to the west this hearing may be the dawn of a new recognition and partnership we hope so as you know more than half of the land in the west is held by the federal government you by all of us on behalf of all of us the ownership of america's vast a state of open places demands stewardship and a demand something it's not getting balance right now we westerners most of us believe that the federal government is not appropriately either finding or seeking that balance now if i may close by just mentioning several points of in balance national parks syncellus stone one hundred thirty five years ago the national parks are still today america's best idea they are a road class asset for this country and for the rocky mountain west and your own g a o estimates that the park repair backlog has reached six billion dollars you have got to quit starve in the parks and water conservation fund the combine funding between land and water conservation fund in the forest the legacy program has been slashed and astonishing ninety percent since george w bush took office it was it six hundred million now it's at fifty million wilderness the only two states in america not to complete the old we're going to designations hone montana both states are now beginning to get back at it again please give us your attention drought give you one example lake mead do the colorado is now ninety feet lower than its historic average clean water and pipeline safety we are assured out west that finally long overdue attention is going to be paid to clean water and pipeline safety because chairman dango and chairman oberstar have both put those western problems at the front of their committee's agendas renewable and alternative energy th virtually the life of this nation the west has provided the oil gas hydro and coal necessary along with west virginia to fuel america's needs and we intend to continue to be helpful but we need your partnership in moving toward cleaner alternatives and renewable energy sources restoration governor schweitzer and i believe that a major new economy a new economy that comes in the west restoration let's work at it with this newly attentive committee restoration of the landscape the own scars intentionally or unintentionally there are tens of thousands of jobs waiting in the west native americans for too many indians poverty tracked them indians have the worst housing the lowest life expectancy the highest infant mortality and the lowest income of any ethnic group in the united states they're under your stewardship please the final point and one that is beginning to raise alarm in the governor's office and throughout montana men are releasing the governor's state department of fish wildlife and arks as only recently understood the breadth of mineral leasing throughout our state in only the past three months the b l m has least one hundred and ten thousand acres of land in montana and that's both public and private land millions of acres of montana in the tens of millions have now been leased primarily for gas often methane gas on town  department of fish wildlife and parks tells us that this energy development will have more negative and perhaps disastrous consequences to fish and wildlife and one of the last great fish wildlife states in america and it will have it within the next ten years more impact than the fish and wildlife have had to undergo in the last fifty years yes we can sustain our landscap wildlife with appropriate entered energy development but not with the onslaught that is now planned and remember and i drew this matter to the attention of the chairman this morning once the minerals are at least under private land the land owner must allow entry that companies can cut the boats on their gates and come in without their permission we jurisdiction over so many federal issues of such importance to the west and we need your immediate help to slow this virtually restrained onslaught of drilling rigs throughout the rocky mountain west and montana won't you please please consider a congressionally ordered moratorium on the headlong mineral leasing in the rocky mountain west the b l m we know is under direct orders to lease the west before this president leaves office please bring a little balance to this chaos we're very pleased mr chairman that you recognize that in the west the times they are changing thank you all very much for inviting thank you both for your support of testimony this morning let me ask governor schweitzer quick question you've painted quite a rosy picture about the west generally and in your state specifically where you have low unemployment increasing wages improve by bond rating all of which speaks to probably to your leadership many areas of the west are not experiencing such improved economic conditions and i would ask what would be your advice to those areas lacking behind what lessons perhaps have you learned that you could share with those in the less rosy parts of the west build the best education system and they will come bright people from all over the world are moving to the rocky mountain west because they can conduct their business with the world as long as they're connected with broadband these bright engineers these business leaders are moving to our communities in the rocky mountain west they're placing their children in our public school system they're taking their children out of private schools on the east and west coast coming to places like montana and they're coming here because we  communities good schools and the ability to camp hunt and fish if you look at montana's economy in the places that are within twenty five minutes of good fishing you'll find that our communities are growing if you're more than a half hour to a great trout fishing your community is probably shrinking people are going to choose community with clean resources i've got to tell you the b l m is a little dysfunctional in montana right now they have been leasing acres all over the powder river basin for coal bed methane because there's a quest for this gas that we have and yet governor fried and all the governor wyoming and myself were asked to come to a meeting here in washington d c with the b l m we sat down in this meeting b l m and they said governors you've got to help us the sage grouse are disappearing the sage grouse are disappearing and you know what we think the problem is we think it's all the coal bed methane drilling that we have can you help us w you release the land we'd love to help you but you're going to have to cooperate with us a little bit you know he didn't even ask our opinion before you least the land was sage grouse live you didn't ask our opinions before you gave the permits for the folks to drill and now you come back to us and say i'll be doggone the birds are disappearing so in washington d c if you can get along with each other across the hall then we'll be able to work with you in the states th it provides fifty percent of the electricity for homes in with the cold liquid technology which is a new clean technology kapow or cars could do a whole lot of other things for our military as well it's been a whole lot of discussion here in washington to try and revolutionize energy including climate change federal but environmentalist have been hitting us up fiercely that coal to liquids would be excluded from the debate and any legislation chairman rangel on the other hand the speaker last week insisting cold liquid be pod him for that and my understanding you correctly the montana is on record that any legislation that would be detrimental to the commercial viability of coal to liquids is bad for the country not exactly what i'm saying is that  we have thirty two percent of all the coal in america we have eight percent of the coal on the planet we are more than happy and prepared to develop not only our coal for electricity but also for liquid fuels there's simply no other way to get to energy independence without coal is part of the mix we consume six point five billion barrels of oil every country every year in this country and we're only able to produce two point five billion barrels i think we can maintain that two point five billion we have a four billion barrel problem i think we can decrease our consumption by one billion barrels the administration has suggested is it twenty by tan or ten by twenty whatever it is that's a decrease of one billion barrels they suggested  that's important but i've got to tell you i'm going agronomist i've done a little math and if you converted every single acre of wheat corn soybeans in this country that we export every single one of them and every one of those acres were dedicated to producing biofuels we could produce one billion barrels of biofuels so we still got a two billion barrel problem so either we continue to send one hundred fifty billion dollars a year to dictators in the middle east or we consider the ace in the hole that we have which is coal we have four hundred billion tons of coal in this country that's more b to use than iran and saudi arabia combined if you converted that to liquid fuel four hundred billion ton times two barrels per ton that's eight hundred billion barrels the last two billion barrels that we have a problem with the four hundred year supply but we are not going to burn another ten acquittal in this country without finding new ways of using that coal because the world is simply not going to allow us and most of the people in united states and industry saying to us if you continue to increase the carbon dioxide or atmosphere you're going to destroy the way we've been living on this planet we're going to store the planet destroy the way we way we're living on this planet we have the technology to sequester this carbon dioxide i would ask congress to take some bold steps i would ask congress to help us with some research and development money so that we can identify those geologic structures to store the carbon dioxide i would ask congress to take aggressive interrupt the filibuster for just a minute here because to be honest i agree with almost everything you said and i know the chairman rangel appreciated what you said about call and sort of why because it does create history we need to look at that the technology is there and we need to develop that's have to be part of the balance i appreciate that the train got one other thing in here and that a minute you have understand about three hundred million dollars that you invest in the state wind power efforts you'd like to expand that as well probably the largest european country to try and do that  denmark which is pro trying to have twenty percent coming from wind power it doesn't meet that criteria simply they don't they don't produce that the winds fail and they have to have a backup which drops down to a percent and to compensate for that the danes pass on the cost of the backup to their consumers and mind of the assumption if you try to develop this and this is probably i'm going to i'm looking like i'm going to give you about thirty seconds to answer this as you try to develop your wind power can you look at i guarantee that you're not going to try and pass on any kind those prevent a back up measures so that consumers at the same time can you deal with the issues of the taking flight displays you know takings decisions by the courts that have that have basically stopped windmill farms for one taking and i'm giving you now twenty seconds i apologize for that when we pass reasonable energy standard montana that would be fifteen percent by the year two thousand and fifteen the utility industry flew in the montana in big numbers and said when that's just for hippies that live on mountain tops and smoke marijuana real energy comes from and hydro power we passed it anyway already montana ten percent in our first big win form is producing electricity for forty one dollars and thirty cents a megawatt which is about eighty percent of the cost of all coal technology when power is less expensive than montana it's renewable and we can use a pretend thousand years thank you maybe on the second round i can actually get back to the answer the question but i applaud you for doing that anyway the chair was willing to give much time as you that we were having a problem in oregon i got to tell you cooperation is breaking out all over montana we're bringing industry folks environmentalists together there's outliers there's ten percent on both sides that don't want to get in any room they can just stay out of the room so we'll work with the eighty percent the one who are the ones who want to find a solution so those who are concerned about timber policy concerned about not having enough roads and enough timber they decided the only way they were going to be able to build a consensus was to sit in the rooms with people and said we're not against harvesting more timber but we're we're for clean water and we're for habitat for our animals for our elk for a deer for animals and so they were able to sit in a room and they were saying here's our suggestion we're going to go to washington d c with a signed agreement that the environmental community and the timber industry agree on we're going to suggest that we open these areas for additional timber harvest but we're going to agree that these areas we will set aside for wildlife and water management i got to tell you folks twenty seven states depend on the water that comes hot from high in the rocky mountains in montana fifty percent of the water that's stored in the columbia river system comes from montana we appreciate that on the columbia in particular if i could governor just i mean i just want to is there a strong component in there for restoration forestry and or thinning fuel reduction i mean that seems to me to be part of the key toward solving some of these disputes absolutely and and we're creating thousands of jobs in montana in the restoration of qana me some of these congressmen who spoke to earlier absolutely right the way we've managed the forests during the last seventy years which is fire suppression and simply to harvest the timber and walk away for fifty years yielded a force that is on the brink of burning but we need to thin those forces not just clear cut them and is there a role for potentially sense you have talked about bio diesel and ethanol and that do you think there is a potential for converting some of the through stewardship contracts other than direct burning for generation but otherwise to use the south los the material absolutely as they if they develop this a la seek ethanol technology woodchips will play a big role we're already using the wood chips in what we call fuels for schools heating our schools with those wood chips but there's unintended consequences folks there is a paper industry in this country that is crying out for more wood chips if we start using it and say a lot of ethanol they're going to say where is where is the paper  so there are unintended consequences to decisions that we make about energy thank you thank you governor thank you  a little bit about coal and the problem coal development represents i think as you know i've dealt with a clean mining personally i oversaw reclamation in the interior department there's the lawyer in charge of that for some period of time  gas development or why i love developing a well to in fact montana is one of two states that increased our production over the last the last year i invited a bunch of folks from the alberta oil industry down to montana we spent two days with them we explained montana's tax system and our regulatory environment and i remember alberta is the biggest producer of oil of any place in north america they are increasing exploding their development we brought these oil companies down to montana and once they knew our tax system and our regulatory environment they hitting each other with their elbows they couldn't believe it it's a better place to do business industry then even alberta and they've been moving their rigs down to montana will continue to develop our oil and gas industry in montana we will continue to do our share to produce the oil and gas and oil and gas for this country but we want to do it on our terms we want to make sure that when we're done we have communities that will continue to be able to prosper in other industries we want to develop our coal we want to do it right and we will continue to increase our oil and gas production and in great strides part of it the only gas industries ask me right now brian when can we get that c o two that comes from those cold liquid plants because our old oil fields in montana they're telling us that they could double triple or even quadruple their production of oil if they had a steady stream of carbon dioxide to pump back into the earth what could be better than sequestering carbon dioxide and increasing oil production we hope that we can be a  ideas and secondly if you stay a democrat i hope you'll convince your democratic colleagues of the reasonableness of that and not just the relatively unique example of chris sinking about what we need to do effect of man on carbon dioxide on the the temperature of your is really i just any time you'd like to talk about switching over would love to have become well i understand the republicans have older whiskey and faster horses but other than that i governor i want to ask you about the future gen project just want your comments about if you have any critiques of it and moving was montana why would montana not been a finalist in the competition for that is a geological issue and  what your prospects for that i have one more question so we actually have what we call the big sky sequenced ration project of seventeen million dollars joint project between montana state university in the department of energy to identify the geologic is owns that we have in montana to sequester carbon dioxide we know that we can we can sequester a great deal of carbon dioxide in montana the future gen project was probably going to go to one of the bigger states we thought that going in there was probably going to arrive in texas or illinois kind of the way it works is the more congresspeople you have the more power you have i don't know a lot all the math works back here but since we have one congressman and he's you met him he's a nice guy but we have one that's a one billion dollar project future gen that just let's just do a little math here when the price of oil went from thirty dollars to sixty dollars a barrel and we're importing four billion barrels we're sending one hundred twenty billion dollars out of this country every year that goes to dictators pockets and we're going to spend one billion dollars for research and development to do the clean coal technology i think pressure natural gas comes off of the coal when you've got the natural gas you can either generate electricity or ship it to somebody's home like they're doing in fuel in north dakota right now but if you want to liquify you pump it back into another reacting chain reactive chamber use a catalyst like c iron ore that splits the carbons from the hydrogens you pump a little oxygen in and then you can put those together like building blocks make fertilizer diesel aviation fuel whatever you would like the the carbon balance of a close to liquid once you have the liquid and diesel or an aviation fuel is about the same you burn the liquid fuel it doesn't have sulfur and it's zero sulfur and no way i'm outtakes it's a cleaner fuel that comes from coal but it will produce the same amount of carbon dioxide as if you were using a petroleum product the syquest ration starts at the gasifier when you gasify and you get the methane gas on one side you have another stream of carbon dioxide as the gas that's the stream that you pump back into the earth if you do not pump the carbon dioxide back into the earth if you don't sequester it the clear liquefaction process will create almost three times as much carbon dioxide as you would in the petroleum business so if we get to a process where we can use a gas from a clerk to liquid system in a car for instance is it fair to say that the same tank full of gas produced from that system can be about the same suit two emissions as a regular gasoline is that the first element yes it is except for along the process of converting coal to that liquid fuel there's a place where you get pure hydrogen in that in that stream we don't even have to make liquid fuels because coal will make pure hydrogen and you can pump all of the carbon back into the earth and once we get the hydrogen technology working so that the car doesn't cost a million dollars i've driven one of those cars and those from about sixty in about ten seconds and it's got to take in the trunk that would blow up the whole city if you're not careful but once we get the technology down we don't even have to go to a liquid fuel we can go directly from coal to hydrogen fuels and once again we have so much coal in this build it and they will leave if that's the case washington could be empty next week find all the population leaving out of here and build it and don't build it and they will come in the mexico and i think we're in the west  we don't have a lot of industry except well and gas and mining timber and ranching and when the price of all fell to six bucks people left and when the price went back up people came back and and at the end of the about seventy five pounds ever i could take a look at it but the cover mines are back to hiring because there's a market there's a market for stuff like that s two hundred forty three pounds of this stuff in every house if americans are going to change their consumption patterns and we don't need that stuff that would be fine but the consumption patterns not changing which means either we export the jobs we send them out we outsource them to other conference countries or we need to find someplace and america where these things come out of  an i appreciate your service i was listening and you said that there is an attempt at least up the west that we had testimony yesterday that the bush administration is actually released sixty three percent fewer leases i've been on the bush administration constantly because president clinton had a p d s application for permits to drill so would you like to comment on the fact that the clinton administration actually was leasing more and providing more applications for congress to drill it's more restrictive under the bush administration do you thank you congressman first step i don't suggest any of those things with regard   first minute or so in which you said in which you were asking about a statement that the monetary in the west might be don't build it and they will come that's not t suggest as i said following that statement that there can't be development in the west there can i grew up in an old copper mining town one of the great old copper mining camps that has simply refused to die and it's time i can reclaim one coal mines  you really are strongly on behalf of coal but when i look at the states record on on the oil and gas production that you have chosen to to do it differently which is fine but now how are you going to get the approval to do these mines which way and restricting and that's fine that's a choice the states have and i would support a choice of any state but i'm not seeing the kind of read it can you address that a little bit so the so the question is how are we develop coal without being it on the landscape and the beauty of coal is that you have a large quantity of b to use that are concentrated in a very small area as you know in the mexico you've got a big open pit coal mine and i could get in a little plane and fly across new  mexico north and south and east and west and east and west and then north and south again looking for that then coal mine and i wouldn't be able to find it because it just doesn't jump out and grab me a only only occupies one one hundredth of one percent of all of new mexico yet it's one of the in the next ten years there are people who do not even want you to put the hole in the dirt i mean just do you have to be honest with the situation there are people who can file lawsuits were running in the same problem with say oh right now is eight million gallons o barrels of shale but no one wants to get it out and that's a huge problem for you to overcome i just wondered if you addressed that question well people who show up and complain about ideas for energy production i always ask them how do you get here to walk where you live and make it tree nuts i mean if you're using energy you have a responsibility for solutions conservation and production i'm simply saying that we can produce energy in a cleaner way than we have in the past i don't think there's in this committee's work we need your input we need your ability to shed light on some of those issues that some of us on california born in texas have understood a long time that we can work both ways we can be able to look for the solutions for oil production for energy production and still maintain with help from everybody  the environment and i think that the more we look at it from that vantage point and work on both sides of it i think better off our people are going to be i specifically am interested in the american indian the native american  are leaving clean water options to our future to our children and grandchildren their grandchildren and i like the indians are looking at it from a standpoint of seven generations i would hope that we are we take a lesson from them and be more cognizant of our role in maintaining that status my question to both of you is what do you see what would you recommend here in this committee to have a focus on that would allow us to be better prepared to work on the issues that will help the states you know talk about the leadership in the state be able to  recommend tell make us understand or allow us to understand what steps need to be taken to protect the future of those areas those priest pristine areas in those very beautiful areas that we all now enjoy and know it's very vague but you know i think you get my message thanks well first by recognizing that the west has never been more prosperous than it is today and it's due to two things the diversity of our continent kaname which is a matter of transition never had a diverse economy before and secondly those footloose jobs i mentioned where people now are flowing into the west in some places they're flooding into the west and they're living near the amenities economy they're living their natural amenities so if you want to protect our economy help us protect those the natural beauty of the landscape all the westerners that live there that natural beauty absolutely copper riveted iron clad wanted protected it's why they moved there so help us with that the other thing that i hope you and the chairman and others of the ranking member will do is continue as the chairman said publicly he intends to these hearings about the evolving west and come west with one to three of these hearings come out into the states your state as well as the state of the rocky mountains and listen to a wide variety of people on both sides of these issues so that you're better able to apply the solutions that we need it does seem to me that that a good many people in the congress have simply missed the west's enormous significant transition over the past decade now half to two decades and if you don't understand it you don't know how to twenty seven other states seventy percent of the water that flows in the missouri river system came from montana fifty percent of the water stored in the columbia system came from montana the number one thing you can do is don't sell your watershed don't sell the land part of our responsibility for the rest of this country is to be the clean watershed in a renewable way the same way it has for ten thousand years don't sell your watershed the second thing that you need to be made abreast of is that we will have fires and we'll have more fires in montana ten of the eleven warmest years recorded in the last hundred fifty years have been during the last eleven years we have insects that are eating specific species of trees because it's not close enough in march to kill the larva and so since we don't kill the larva and they're multiplying in large numbers we have a lot of our forests in montana and british columbia that are dying what's going to happen is we're going to trend to a different species of tree but it will burn first and when it burns it's going to create more carbon in the atmosphere but more importantly it's going to create problems in the watershed because those trees are the filter system so be need to work on healthy forests and be cognizant that we will be your watershed tone sell it it's a bad idea thank you gentleman from idaho mr sally thank you mr chairman mr williams i'm trying to interpret your message to this committee on the one hand i hear you talking about  this doesn't seem to need extractive industry and i heard you criticized the extractive industries here today are you saying that there should be no more extraction of timber or mannerless or  well if you know if you think you heard me criticize extractive industry then my words were not properly definitive or eloquent because i wasn't trying to criticize extractive industry in my old hometown of butte when mine almost as much copper as we did when i was a boy when i was a boy we had fifteen thousand miners doing it today we have three hundred hamburgers and mining together in montana hired two percent of the of the jobs that are hired in the state it isn't that they're not important it's that they're not relatively as important as they were should they continue to be in the west of course because it's where the resources are so which would you agree that we ought to extend we have to continue extractive activities and their work in western states in the future sure as long as those extract industries realize they're in an evolving west or in the west that's more diverse than it was and relies upon a amenities economy now a lot of them get that and a lot of the people that come to see brian  drilling for methane is going to create problems for grouse but that you want to work to use coal is a new energy what kind of environmental problems to another drainage in some way the sage grouse has a very low tolerance for west nile as soon as west nile showed up in montana we noticed right away that the sage grouse populations were going down now fish wildlife determined that the standing ponds have created big mosquito populations that are spreading this this west nile to the sage grouse remember they lived on a on a terrain where there wasn't much water earlier on and your testimony is there's no really there's no corresponding environmental issue with coal development well it certainly is but as i suggested in mexico i could i could fly over new mexico for days before i could find that big coal mine but you don't have to fly very long in the powder river basin of montana and wyoming to look down and see  a a clear bed methane well on every twenty acres so i'm trying to understand the distinction you're drawing between development of methane is an energy source versus development of coal as an energy source you're saying one is good and one is bad but you're saying that there are environmental issues with both i mean how can we distinguish which one is better than the other fortunately i didn't say one is good and one is bad i like both because they are developing in which your resources a coal bed methane present significant challenges because as you this salty water to the surface it ends up in the tongue in the powder river and then we have irrigators that have to use that water i think that we can develop that natural gas from those coal seams and not put ranchers out of business that's the concern that we have your message of the committee is that we do need to continue extractive industries into the future just need to do it responsibly you bet mr williams you'd agree with that statement well sure thank you and that responsibility's been watching mr  n chair recognizes general a south dakota miscarriages well thank you chairman ray hall and ranking member bishop for convening this engaging hearing on the evolving west now though the state of south dakota is just adjacent to the census bureau's definition of the west we do border montana as the good governor mentioned and wyoming and we deal with a lot of the same issues particularly in the western part of south dakota the state is home to nine sovereign tribes one point two million acres of national forest and a series of federal dams up and down the missouri river which are certainly affected by the snowpack up in montana so i appreciate the committee's focus on all of the issues being raised today and particularly interested in the tribal component of the evolving west and pleased to see that in the next panel will be hearing from two witnesses who represent two different sovereign tribal nations i also know that governor schweitzer is privileged to represent and serve tribes in the great state of montana i appreciated the former congressman's words in reminding us about our stewardship here on this committee based on treaty obligations and other constitutional issues as well for sovereign nations within our state borders i am interested governor on what sorts of opportunities you've pursued in your tenure other opportunities that you see in working with tribal governments as partners to meet some of the opportunity will seize some of the opportunities overcome some of the challenges facing the evolving west a couple of times in your testimony you talked about the reason so many are attracted to montana is because of safe communities but in many of the reservations meanings that i represent safe communities are are often times hard to come by and one of the biggest issues that i hear in addition to health care in addition to housing infrastructure development is the issue of law enforcement and if you could comment on both sort of the i think it's so important especially those who serve as our governors in addition to this committee's responsibility of oversight and helping further economic development that if we're dealing with a valving economies how can we ignore tribes how can we not seek to develop partnerships without asking them to cede their sovereignty and to give up elements of that so i'd be interested in your and your thoughts and perhaps congressman williams as well as you know our indian nations were formed in montana before we were even the territory this body formed those indian nations and there are jurisdictional issues in terms of law enforcement the greatest beginning is mutual respect and trust so we have negotiations ongoing negotiations with individual tribal councils  as to jurisdictional issues some places patrols have x authority other places they have why some places county sheriff's can do q some places they can do t but let us understand these  individual nations and when we negotiate we negotiate as an individual nation not as a blanket discussion because again they were on the landscape well before us and they have a jurisdiction that supersedes even the state of montana i appreciate that by just if you could talk about some of what you're doing and you see in terms of partnerships economically understanding that we need more oversight here is it relates to the b a s obligations on the law enforcement side but are you hearing from some of the tribal councils that you consult with regularly each one again representing a sovereign nation is lawn forstmann becoming one of the my main priorities for tribes in montana absolutely and the greatest problem we have is methamphetamine on our indian nations it's exploding all across the rural areas in particular on our reservations so we're building a corrections system that actually treats drug addicts and not just warehouse them we're asking elders in indian country to help us develop a culturally appropriate corrections system so that we're treating the underlying drug addiction alcohol addiction and mental illnesses we can't afford to just warehouse people it's destroying communities in this destroying our correction budgets i simply would say regarding development of the economy in indian country that we have some great opportunities high unemployment fifty percent and young age the youngest population in montana was on our indian reservations and like the irish miracle when ireland grew while the rest of europe was shrinking they recognise that a young population has assets young people can learn things very quickly you're not retraining adults so we're trying to attract technology companies to come to indian reservations we're putting money in our tribal colleges and we're saying to these companies we will train this young population for your emerging jobs and then we give them incentives to locate on indian reservations thank you congresswoman you might consider this reservations of the only communities in america where the local police or the now they have some of them have local police forces that violations on a reservation are a federal offense and the f b i moves it's a law enforcement system that's dislocated thank you chairman just one final comment if i might i worked for the federal district court in the central division in south dakota and know precisely of i think what you're alluding to there in terms of the problems when the local law enforcement plays displaced an f investigations go on with again very little oversight thank you chair thanks to generator south dakota for her surprise questions our responsibilities to our navy americans is something this committee takes very seriously so i'm about done here thank you very much recognize you know from california mr castro thank you very much mr chairman i appreciate the hearing appreciate the focus for all the right reasons this committee and you are focusing on today for the talking about cleaner coal attracting some doubts and they were talking about not being clear which technology that is best suited for coal gasification combined with cycle  pulverised call that would allow for the easiest carbon capture carbon capture because a lot of engineering still has to be done now there's no doubt as you have said passionately about going back to world war two  application of this energy source however we have a as you know in california especially the central valley where i'm coming from a significant c o two problem and so i'd like to get your thoughts as it relates to the emerging technologies and where you think we are on that we mentioned integrated gas combined cycle for electricity production that's actually the easiest one to sequester the carbon dioxide to split the c o two off and pump it back into  the earth the carbon balance is better in producing electricity with coral than it is in producing liquid fuels so as we move forward and we move towards electric cars now fifty percent of the electrical portfolio in this country it's likely to continue and and and those numbers for the forseeable future we can produce integrated gas combined cycle electricity sequester the carbon dioxide and be a source of electricity for the central valley of california cost  yeah i think so it'll add about twenty five percent of the cost of producing electricity over polar ice coal but if we do go to a cap and trade system it's going to be cheaper over the long haul than putting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere that's why i ask this committee to take a lead in a national cap and trade system so we're not balkanized california announced that they with washington and oregon and california and arizona new mexico are going to do their own cap and trade system makes it difficult for those of us who actually provide electrons for washington oregon and california to determine where we will be in the future of the city your supplier or i met with your colleague our governor yesterday and of course as as you probably know in conversations with them their whole focus is not choosing the the  and so i mean it was with that of course leading you on this point but i do believe coal is a part of our future and i'm concerned about the applications of the technology it will not be the energy of the future unless we're able to sequester carbon dioxide and make sure that we're not putting mercury and so far in the atmosphere if we can produce ultra clean coal technology sequester the carbon dioxide will be a significant part of the energy portfolio for the next thirty years if not it will have a diminishing role lead to the leading academic institutions in the country the research that is taking place currently that you would reference as to that and which we're moving in that direction princeton university is taking the lead in carbon sequestration in columbia university montana state university and the big sky seaquest ration project are taking the lead in developing this technology to sequester carbon dioxide you have been to gas and approximation how far away princeton university testify before the senate yesterday and he said that he believes with very high certainty that all the carbon dioxide that we're putting in the atmosphere in this country today from overwrites coal could be stored underground and he's a leading authority thank you governor for your passion and your efforts thank you our former colleague that way and thank you both very much we deeply appreciate it committee is ready to move on to our next panel and i would ask the members to come forward mr clifford our marshall the chairman who by valley tr brothers lumber incorporated robert g lee ph d professor sociology of natural resources university of washington gentlemen we welcome you to the committee on natural resources we have your prepared testimony without objection it each will be made upon for the record you may proceed as you wish each recognize for five minutes if you want to go in order introduce valley tribe indian reservation is the largest reservation in california consisting of one hundred forty four square miles over ninety five percent of the reservation is still held in trust and over ninety percent of that land is designated timber land the tribe governs itself it governs as and a municipality governs and it manages lands and natural resources and the other regulatory agency does try it has a public utilities district that provides water to a community we have education programs social services programs hospital dental clinic another the only ambulance service an emergency room within seventy miles of the reservation there's a rainforest program in a civil court we have both wild land and volunteer fire departments to protect our lands and our forest management plan approved by the bureau of indian affairs that exceeds their environmental standards required by federal law this plan is a lot of timber to be smart with certified meaning that the certification allows to lumber products produced from our timber to be exposed a bill to europe the forest management by it's been expanded to two thousand and eight and we are in the process of validating and updating the plan where we have strived for in timber harvest plants is balance between the need to generate revenues to fund government and other programs to maintain employment base and the need to protect our cultural areas for gathering of traditional food basket weaving materials firewood to protect our spawning streams from erosion and sediment from an federal employees these contracts however do not provide for benefits that would otherwise be provided to the federal employee where the be a still performing the stress functions employee benefits a federal employee such as workers compensation health care policies are more expensive to travel employees must purchase small group policies to reduce the cost we ask that congress allow tribes that are contacting to reform the stress functions be allowed to purchase insurance should the federal insurance program covered by the federal employment compensation act in federal employees health benefits contracts can be extended to tribal contracts without cost to the federal government federal health insurance policies covering millions of workers are negotiated by the office of personnel management with private carriers cost are paid by the employees and the agencies permitting trials for it dissipate in those large think goshi the contracts will have a dim intimate effect on the federal insurance put rupe size and characteristics the tribes and tribal employees will pay for the cost of coverage for from fire and theft hoopa created its own well fire protection program the largest the most developed tribal program in california and possibly the nation are tribal firefighters meet the same qualification requirements the united states for service in california division of forestry rancher jason to our eastern brain border were recently changed to wilderness i raised this today because of concerns regarding catastrophic fire last year two fires on our eastern border each group one hundred thousand acres six years ago one hundred thousand acre fire breached our border and was stopped by back fires ignited on our reservation causing significant loss to plantation nature isn't messy place nature cleans up its messes well through fire fire however is indiscriminate when i reaches a boundary prior to the designation of this area's wilderness the tribe was working with the six rivers national forest on a stewardship agreement that would have allowed for manual release of these from mobile fuels we would like to address these concerns through such an agreement that would allow us to manually remove understory brash and down timber and hardwood for fire protection in the newly designated section of the train in the wilderness and six rivers national forest around for some program includes a resource protection component that is not eligible for department of justice funding because who president public want to  or otherwise unhealthy diet and reduce our cost of living valley tribe is committed to advocating for defending protecting and restoring the fishery the trinity and climate rivers basins the climate interesting response to the third largest producer o coast but the system is under extreme stress and it's pretty action has dropped to the lowest in recorded history restoration programs for both rivers need to be implemented funded immediately if every tribe strongly supports the removal of the four dams and we are a climber  restore fishery habitat and access for salmon to the epigram basin i thank you for your time and if you have any questions i'm happy to answer them thank you let's proceed with the rest of panel first mr box chairman ray hall members of the council good morning i am matthew box and the vice chairman of the southern tribe of the southern new indian reservation in southwestern colorado it's a great honor and a privilege to be here before you today on behalf of my tribe i thank you with me today our councilman newton our general council as well as our executive director of the southern new tribal growth on the subject of the evolving west has many many issues population growth if the structure environmental protection preservation of open space real property health care gratian are just a few we are glad to know this committee also recognizes the issues of indian country as an important part of your decision most of the three hundred indian reservations are found in the west indian reservations nine of those indian reservations are bigger than the state of delaware approximately half a million native americans live on reservations and we have unique challenges and meet every problem and challenge that exists elsewhere in the west also exist on indian reservations in addition we are engaged in a constant struggle to maintain our sovereignty our homelands and our culture we are also compelled to call upon the federal government to fifield its obligation under the federal trust responsibility our tribe is not a story about problems needs or demands however our store as of success and evolution our reservation my homeland is located in the four corners region there are approximately seven hundred ten thousand acres within the exterior boundaries of the of our reservation as a result of historical development including homesteading more than half of the surface lands are owned by persons other than the tribe or its members our reservation sits on the northern end of the san juan basin and as a prolific natural gas field fifty years ago our tribe existed in poverty as a direct result of development of our natural grass resource we are no longer impoverished our tribe is one of the strongest economic forces in our region it is the largest employer in the four corners with over one thousand employees we have our own elementary school which most of our young children attend our campus has modern buildings including courthouse  jail recreational facilities and ministry of offices our water treatment plant and wastewater treatment plants are state of the art facilities and provide services to neighboring non indian communities our financial success has allowed us to provide retirement benefits to our elders scholarships to our students and payments to our members of the we continue to struggle to improve healthcare on our reservation we are making progress  securing health insurance for all of our members these are just some of our competition myths and we are looking forward to moving every day in my written testimony i have outlined some of the steps we have taken to maximize the value of our natural gas resources gas operating company and repurchase the work interested in many of our leases in one thousand nine hundred five we formed a partnership with another company and purchased a major pipeline gathering and treatment system on the reservation today one percent of the ny nation's natural gas requirements are met by gas produced on our from our reservation and travels through our pipeline system from a cultural perspective we have been proud stewart of our land our companies have set the standards for sound environmental practices on the reservations our concerns about unnecessary surface disturbance even in situations where there are splits surface and subsurface estates has allowed us to continue development without much of the bitter complaint heard in the western regions i have provided more to detail about these matters in my written testimony as an indian tribe however we are still limited by the complex series of federal laws and regulations that govern our activities even in advocating self determination we are forced to rely on federal agencies for approval and supervision in many areas in our mind the federal agencies are neglecting their duties the b i seems near collapse and we have been advised that the a religious functions cannot be performed this is a critical aspect of trust responsibility our local indian irrigation project is also on the verge of ruin we have concerns with the mineral management service and the trend to abandon proven royalty audit practices indian health services are also in the world are woefully inadequate we have contracted for for for many federal functions because we think we can do a better job but the funding needed for us to carry out those functions are never enough and are inadequate we have learned that we can do much to help ourselves and we intend to continue to walk down that path we are proud of our success but also remain concerned that the federal trust responsibility is changing not by conscious decision by simply by neglect as the future and for if we plan to continue our status can remain a presence in the west into perpetuity we will tend to build upon the strong relationships that we have with our neighbors our state and our local government we have proven however that we are capable of chartering our own path and we will continue to defend our sovereignty our right to decide our own destiny for ourselves our children as well as the generations of the southern you try thank you for your time as well mission is to inspire and to enable community decisions that and public policies that respect the land of the people of western north america we work all over the west in a variety of methods a partnership with the national association of counties allows us to provide training programs for rural county commissioners helping county commissioners in rural counties better manage growth as they deal with the with the evolving west as we've heard aside from the landscape the ownership of public lands the aridity the american west finds itself in an almost unique position in the global economy nowhere else do you have such access to wide expanses of wild lands wildlife habitat adjoining prosperous well educated economically diverse cities as well as small towns the opportunity in the west to live in a prosperous city or town time i'd into the global economy through the internet and through other mechanisms access to air travel and so forth coupled with the ability to be in communities that are surrounded by public lands as perhaps the most important competitive advantage that we have in the west in an increasingly global economy the result is the west is changing rapidly the five fastest growing states in the country are in the west there are problems of course too many communities are left behind we've researched the  relationship between public lands and local economic prosperity public lands correlate with economic prosperity in western counties that's the case in metropolitan areas that's the case in non metropolitan areas the relationship is complex it's multifaceted but there's four quick points i would leave you with the first is counties with more public land or more prosperous than counties with less second counties with public lands and protected status are more prosperous than those that are managed for other uses third counties and i think this is critical counties with a diverse economic base a base that includes a wide range of economic activities including extraction including tourism and including this new economy that i would call the knowledge economy that governor schweitzer talked about counties with a diverse economic base have better demonstrated economic performance than those with a dependence upon a single activity whether that single activity is resource extraction or tourism or what have you there are many factors that correlate with economic prosperity in the west public lands is one that  our research indicates is important it's important to aim the economy for high wage produce or services how do you move beyond tourism which is seasonal how do you move beyond lower paying jobs to higher  paid economy how do you how do you help these communities move to a more mature economy that includes health care includes finance engineering a whole range of professional services as governor schweitzer said education is a key factor proximity to the global economy through airports is a key factor the presence of ski areas correlates with economic performance because again it attracts outside capital and ideas the first factor is the major growth engine in the west the major growth in engine over the last thirty years is coming from new innovation and evasive sectors services if you will make up eighty percent of all new jobs more than half of all in that growth in real personal income  you can look at a variety of case studies for how this plays out we've recently done a research project that we produced with the theodore roosevelt conservation partnership looking at the correlation between hunting and angling and economic prosperity and in every western state you can see a dramatic amount of income that comes from the presence of hundreds and run a half a billion dollars and then come in most states but more importantly harder to connect harder to discern harder to measure but more importantly sportsmen and sportswomen and other visitors to the west also quite often relocate to the west and they bring jobs they bring energy they bring capital they bring income so the question in the west is how do we capture amenity growth if you will there's two major problems very quickly the first is too many communities are left behind we've got to figure out a way to improve the economic performance and more communities secondly the growth that's come in as a result of this knowledge economy is causing a whole new range of threats to public lands and to private lands in the west heard about wildfire the more development we have scattered around the west the more challenging is this to manage fire in summer a quick comment extract if you continue in the west they're very important in a fairly small number of counties and communities around the west their contribution remains important but it's diminishing because of the growth in other sectors of the economy jobs versus the environment is no longer the dominant paradigm in the west the environment conservation and sound management of our public lands provides the foundation for economic prosperity for good sustainable jobs with collaboration with partnerships basing our decisions on sound information we can build a west that is both prosperous and environmentally healthy is w ok good afternoon committee thank you for having me and the rest of the panel i think it's a very good discussion to have and move forward with as was said my name is russell dog and i'm vice president of vulcan brothers lumber i also serve as vice president the northeast washington forestry coalition my family's company has been operating in northeast washington since one nine hundred fifty two and my great grandfather on land my family owns now operated saw mills back into the twenty's robin brothers lumber has always been a leader and utilizing as much fiber as possible from the forest and in the late eighty's we started pioneerin sawmill technology in the u s and north america today our focus is small logs we produce lumber out of logs starting four inch small in diameter and we make chip from logs down to two went small in diameter it's truly a small diameter process in the past fifty five years since my family's been operating sawmills in northeast washington we have seen many changes going to talk about four points that address these changes and how we can begin improving the health of the forests and communities of the west as mentioned before i'm part of a local collaborative group called the northeast washington forestry coalition that meets to discuss and solve issues related to management to call them national forest the coalition consists of conservation groups timber companies a paper mill a power company consulting foresters a log or a ski area and all interested members of the public that want to be involved it's an open group the timber industry and conservation groups had both been a dog with the agency and each other for a number of years four years ago our group was formed to discuss our concerns with the management of the called the national forest and out of that we discovered that the interests of the local timber industry and the environmentalists were very similar we both wanted healthy forests and healthy communities but we're seeing enough progress on either front we've come to agree that we can have more timber harvested at the same time we protect other areas of the forest we have not had a project appealed or litigated on the call though for more than two years i think that says a lot of the northeast  for street coalition has a memorandum of understanding signed with the called on national forest to collaborate on projects and issues of managing the forest were in constant communication with the forest service and have and the process has been very successful and looks to build momentum in the future currently the call the national forest sells about thirty five million board feet our coalition has identified an area in need of responsible management that can support a million board feet annually producing more logs from the forest is important but we are also working on protecting more areas of the forest possibly even new wilderness is what we call the blueprint for future management of our forest the forestry coalition is a great group an example of how people are working together to solve problems and build hope for a start a strong and balanced future we have a serious problem in the west especially on our national forests are forced by and large are overstock many trees fighting for water and sunlight making them strain to survive this is due to decades of fire suppression to keep fires to a minimum in order to protect property resources and habitat not allowing fires to burn when the fuel fuel loads were low or had the consequence of putting too many trees and too much brush on the landscape this means that when fires insects and disease and there's the forest consequences can be catastrophic in certain areas we need to continue suppressing fires to protect homes and communities but we need to manage the forest to keep the forest from becoming overgrown sending these forests and providing local products to local businesses is the best way to achieve this as valued every step to the land to the community and to the economy the forest service will spend almost two billion dollars in fire preparedness and suppression this year those activities now account for forty five percent  agency's budget it's staggering but fires are a symptom of a larger problem the driving problem is poor forest health and overcrowded for us congress can help solve the problem directing more funding to projects designed to reduce fuels and improve the health of the forest if we just keep sense spending more money on fire fighting will continue to see the problem get larger and become more expensive in the future we can completely reverse this trend by harvesting valuable products from these areas along proving the health of the forest of the greatest tool for treating our forests without sawmills or little or no market for valuable material that needs to be removed from project areas because there is such a critical need to treat large areas of the landscape level being able to sell large volumes of small a medium sized logs is critical unfortunately there are many areas in the west for some of the infrastructure is gone or on the brink of disappearing and areas of new mexico colorado california utah wyoming and others that used to have sawmills all over the place and now have nothing this makes it nearly impossible to do the work effectively the cost of getting infrastructure back is also staggering we need to make sure that the focus is placed on creating large projects where the infrastructure currently exists in order to maintain it and then large projects should also be created in other areas in order to give incentives for new businesses to start small projects over short period of time did not provide enough material or predictability to maintain a business there have been projects that are more than one hundred thousand acres in size and ten years in length and we need to see more of those first and final point i'd like to touch on is about the economics one thing people may not know as we've talked a lot about jobs and the diversity of jobs the jobs in mills and in the words are some of the highest paying careers in the rural economy makes a very important mix of a very important part of our economic engine for our communities having mills adds value to property owners by providing an outlet for them to sell their logs will taking care of their property it also allows them to keep their land is working for us rather than development which is also changing in the west timber revenue from rural west can also generate tax dollars increase volumes of timber from the national forests from good projects can generate funds for counties this could be part of the solution first secure rural schools in the county payments issue sawmills in the resource industry are not the cornerstone of the rural western communities that they once were but they play a vital role in the overall economic picture if you look at the vibrant towns in the rural west they have an element of balance i truly believe by treating our forests in a sensible way led by collaborative groups like the northeast washington forestry coalition we can add real economic and ecological stability to communities in conclusion my key points are that collaboration makes sense and it is very important to the management of our national forests forest health is an important issue with real consequences and we must take action on the infrastructure makes for us health treatments possible and finally the management of our federal force at the press found impact on real communities the west is indeed changing and my community is evidence of that but while everything about our community is now more diverse and dynamic we've found that collaboration through groups like the northeast russian forestry coalition helps us find common ground helps us find our common values and work together on solutions that meet all our needs congress can help by putting focus both financially and politically on getting larger projects together that improve the state of our forests and the vitality of our rural communities thank you thank you mr wagner next is professor really welcome thank you faculty members of the committee for the invitation to speak here i've been studying produce in communities in the west for about thirty years and in the current view we find a far more complex and heterogeneous landscape some communities are thriving on imported wealth either as a manatee based retirement communities for the middle class or estates for the wealthy other communities have sunk into poverty with populations that increasingly resemble urban inner cities and crime substance abuse and reliance on government assistance many of these poor communities even in remote mountain locations are now occupied by growing populations of n migrants from central america persistent poverty also continues among many many of the native american populations so i want to speak for a few minutes about how these  changes in the last may affect how we meet future challenges and there are three challenges that i'd like to emphasize the first is climate change induced by global warming and this has a real effect on how we deal with the forests and particularly the fact that existing to not technologies will permit us to manage forest for carbon conservation while protecting for bio diversity the current forest management policies on federal land this favor a hands off passive approach with minimal intervention passive management perpetuates unhealthy forests that are vulnerable to catastrophic out spec outbreaks of disease insects and wild fire such outbreaks contribute to global warming by releasing carbon dioxide from trees that could have remained living or been converted to wood in use by society active management for us throughout the west will provide multiple benefits and carbon conservation green energy production healthy ecosystems and wood products i know other benefits include containing runaway fire suppression costs as more for us come under active management the second factor is all exploration and development and i won't say much about that because governor schweitzer is already commented on that extensively the third factor of the decline in the value of the dollar and it's i think important for us to recognize that the current forest management policies were adopted during a robust economy when the purchasing power of the dollar was relatively strong resource exploitation was exported to other nations so that we could protect our forests and wild areas if we move into a world with a weaker dollar some think we might it will be increasing demand for domestic natural resources these factors then  skilled rural industrial workforce of the past has been degraded or no longer exists education and training will be needed especially for those new and migrants who lack traditional skills the prices of oil for transportation and heating will have demographic consequences leaving in rural areas to those employed a natural resource industries stranded for and wealthy in migrants all this will exaggerate current trend toward rural class stratification the ethic of undisturbed natural regulate ecosystems is embodied in current federal land management policies challenges of climate change energy transitions and sustenance for domestic resources can only be met if americans learn to live in harmony with nature not separate from and land mass ethics and policies adopted in the one nine hundred ninety s must be adjusted to meet the emerging challenges of  the twenty first century and fourth residual resentment and lack of trust in the federal government among many western citizens and habits investment in rural enterprises federal action is required to reestablish the political and legal basis for rebuilding trust in federal lead management and in conclusion the world of the twenty first century demands a more pragmatic and princip approach to federal forest land management in particular this nation's experiment with protecting self regulating ecosystems of the west for a privileged minority is costly impractical and fails to satisfy principles guiding sustainable land use to all states principles that will work i am submitting for the record a part of a chapter from broken trust broken land a book i wrote in response to the formulation of current land management policies in one nine hundred ninety four i thank you very much for your attention today without objection so ordered to be entered into the record thanks for your testimony and  had like to open first with a first question to chairman clifford marshall in regard to your fisheries management efforts you list them as your second major resource program in addition to coast road in this light it desperately needs restoration funding there's been a constant tug of war for restoration funding there is a record of decision in the restoration program for the trinity river that has been cut annually it is in desperate need of it is a restoration is not going to work unless it's consistent and it has to be maintained an annual basis over a long term funding is is is cut short changed is is is not doing an adequate job to protect the resources the fishery resources the climate the trinity basin wh a focus and a priority on the river system and on the fishery there are many competing resources these are the last two wild and scenic rivers in the state of california there designated as such the law requires that water adequate stream flows be provided for anatomist an endangered species there are competing interests but the priorities are upside down thank you thank you for your answer and for your honest answer  won't say that we're expecting a vote shortly will be three three votes and maybe some other motions and so we will try to speed this up so we don't have to turn so i'll keep my questions very  thank you and i'll try to make these as quick as i can as well go through them everybody german marshall was terrorism ever an ak and then economic option for your area tourism in our area yeah it's a  was designated then what's been eliminated now is the buffer between the reservation we had a number of concerns about that area and we raised them let me say for both of you as well as mr bach and i appreciate your testimony both of them are right on one of the problems we face in the force is simply the fact that we have turned over the federal government the ability of doing everything we used to have private infrastructure that helped with the maintenance of those forests so that if we i don't have twenty billion feet of growth every year and ten billion board feet of old growth trees every year and the federal government is only trying to get to three billion we cannot maintain that without the private and structured infrastructure that you're talking about in both your areas my appreciate your elements just ask you about the wages that you do with your energy business how that compares to other things like maybe the ski industry around during oh i believe that from our energy aspect or our  comparison to what you guys are paying down there in this industry with versus what they're paying for wages up there no unfair question around let me go on with what you've been able to do you provided you know schools scholarships office building a whole bunch of really good stuff down there if you can develop the call bed methane resources what you had any other options to produce that kind of economic opportunity i would believe not no i appreciate that mr there was a report that was recently done by your institute said over six hundred thousand people visit the grand staircase this go any monument we checked with the county commissioners in those areas they were dumbfounded with the assertion so what i wanted to find out is what was the basis establish was i like because it talked about to diversify to con me it was the basis of what would happen in the future that all different types of jobs have to be there when i started this this first hearing i came up the concept of education funding let me ask you again how do you fund my schools and i'll give you a perfect example park city is one of the fastest growing recreational areas in nine states as well as in my state they're doing a lot of good things a lot of growth is going on there a lot of construction out however twenty five years ago thirty years ago when i first started the legislature we had to recapture a program for education funding which means it's a community could actually generate more property tax than what the state put as the minimum we would recapture that spread throughout the rest state we recaptured while the oil industry was going well in summit county park city we no longer recapture we are now still trying to subsidize even though this is the new economy economic growth so i ask the same question i tried to i was hoping that others would come up with how do you fund my schools adequately you ask a very important question funding for education i think is the key to future economic economic prosperity in the west it's a challenge with federal lands it's a challenge with the state trust lands in the in the western states to generate a meaningful amount of revenue given the economic growth we have our our society our western states are quite good at taxing resource extraction that goes back i think to the progressive area we have not learned how here it is true what you're trying to say we don't tax well the trade minister because that's not where the value is that's right if you have a job in the mining or you're doing it three times as much money as you're doing it for a job it's three times as much money coming in income tax you do from from tourism  you can do with terrorism alone and i'm sorry i just we just hit the red light there i agree you can't do it with terrorism the challenge is how do we move that economy from tourism like moab is trying to do to a diverse more mature economy that includes finance and engineering it's interesting that moab no longer spends as much on i want to make sure i have my numbers right there they're doing less advertising for tourists and more advertising showing their mountain biking and their river running and hunting to attract people with those higher paying professional jobs that's the transition that we need to and if that's what gets me frustrated i can't say hello in here that's what gets me frustrated because i spent sixteen years in the legislature trying to balance an education funding formula and i realize that what they're doing still does not equate to the overall economic picture and does not equate to the education funding i can't do it but i get one mine down in san juan county and i can do three times the amount of effort as i can for all the tourism that's coming into my lap it's nice but it cannot replace what we need to have a very strong diversified that has a very strong mining and mineral mineral base and manufacturing base so i appreciate what you're doing   progress there i know with interest that you're saying right now selling thirty five million your coalition is then to find an area need a responsible management that can support eighty million board feet in you really what's the hold up it looks to be the agency it's interesting that you brought that up because we're at thirty five and that's probably being generous we identified through a program i believe that was developed at the university of washington called land management systems and put a series of inputs in there and it cranks out an output eighty million was the low it was eighty to one hundred two million and it was a scientific process with the with the environmentalists that are part of our coalition that developed this our local forest leadership group came back and said well we think we can do sixty so i don't understand the disconnect  diligently working on that i spent a lot of time over at the forest service building trying to get answers like to be helpful in trying to get to the bottom of that because i mean i  national forest and i don't know of any sales recently that have been deficit sales we have a lot of competition there really speaks to infrastructure diameter four and a half to seven inch diameter logs command upwards of sixty dollars a ton so it's a good price so it's a lot of dollars per load so you can get a lot of work done we've constantly wondered why we haven't been able to get more work done especially as we develop these projects with the help of the conservation community and others within the local community that think that the project should go on and every time they get turned back to the agency they seem to get smaller and more restrictive were started prior to our coalition getting involved so we didn't collaborate from the get go so we said well we just won't call those a collaborative project but we'll stay in touch some of the conservation groups came in and looked at the project layout of the forest service and said you know we're going to feel this and litigated if you continue on these on this path the president of our forestry coalition which is a forester for my company was called and brought in as an intermediary between the agency an environmental group to solve the problem and we solved the problem and it's now moving forward as a project it will not be appealed or litigated i think that's huge when you think about the implications that an industrial or came in and solve the problem between environmentalist higher numbers that you're dealing both with fuel reduction and economic activity one other quick question and again in your testimony you talk about yours this is something that i've had a number of people raise with me saying you know if you could do some of these projects that would provide more certainty that is over say a twenty year period we could get some investment into some of the rural counties fo currently we could theoretically change yeah absolutely would that that would engender some additional investment or i think it might you know i think it's very critical that the investment be local businesses well i think that historically we had a lot of businesses that came in bought companies in sawmills and small towns and then when the going got tough they left town when you have a company like ours that is locally owned you stick through the hard times so i think if we're going to redo that and we're going to put out projects that influence investment locally we need to make sure that it is incentivized locally and we follow the s b a program to give incentives to those local community what around the rest of the country i don't just wondered how you draw that correlation where would you consider around in the united states what specific urban areas or rural areas have kind of a knowledge most concentrated around the universities in the west tucson phoenix boulder colorado the places where we've made a significant investment in the economic development tends to cluster around that what does that resources economy is an alternative perhaps it's not so much an alternative i think is an evolution it's a continuation of a maturing economy in the research we've done that brought copies of the publication where we could get into more detail looking at western communities and we  analyzed four hundred all four hundred eleven counties in the west three factors rise to the top one was the proximity of protected public lands and that's not only your well known yellowstone national park and grand canyon that's also your less well known units like the the b l m units in the national landscape conservation system so proximity to public lands correlates to is the educational attainment level of local residents correlate that has a lot to do with capital and the third is access it's interesting and from you know as an organization the central city conservation this is definitely a two edged sword but proximity correlate strongly with airport that has at least a twenty five thousand employments a year has to be where people can come and go and you with such a small tax base but when i look around the country as a knowledge economy austin texas is always talked about texas has very little public land has to do more with with what you do with with with private land or small pieces of publicly owned land doesn't require you know half the state be owned by the federal government there are there are burdens make it very difficult for local communities and i'm just wondering if that's where you're going with that and how sustainable it is to simply rely on the knowledge economy and and move away completely from a resource based economy i wouldn't suggest that in the west we should  we are moving away completely from a resource economy i think that's an element of it and will be i'm also not suggesting that public lands are the only way to build a diverse mature economy that includes professional services and knowledge and high tech and so forth but it is the competitive advantage that the west has is to attract that fly fly fisherman or fly fish or woman who who's tied into the broader economy through professional services finance real estate whatever the case may be but as governor schweitzer said values that proximity to clean high quality cold water thank you thank you we have the votes already upon us but i'd like to end this hearing i'm americans that is for decades been an area where we are falling behind and i think it's incumbent upon us to ensure that we pass that on along to others and then as we're building these new communities to ensure that they service research service report on wages without objection so ordered and unless they don't have any last thoughts we will adjourn this hearing thank you reportedly made the comments while visiting a diabetes center in the united arab emirates a mcdonald's spokesman said the prince's remarks don't reflect the company's current menu and business practices battle royale it's quite a picture late in the day tomorrow by forty eight with the cloud cover fifty eight though on saturday as we get back in the sunshine after a little morning rain saturday looks like a partly cloudy day clouds keep away please  news continues right after the and we're expecting own organics for babies arriving soon ingredients from line stapling dave lucas anchoring news channel eight more local more of this is carl osborne from the news channel eight weather center you're looking at live super doppler eight radar showing any precipitation around the washington d c metro area and the surrounding region and now let's take a look at current conditions here's a live look at the skies from a top news channel eight headquarters in roslyn virginia news channel eight weather seven day forecast check back with news channel eight at the top of every hour for live real time weather information and watch our newscasts all day for detailed forecast information to help you plan your day a final look at live super doppler eight radar as we see weather conditions throughout the area this is kyle osborne from the news channel eight weather center  good evening i'm bob woodruff on january twenty ninth two thousand and six while reporting from iraq my cameraman doug vogt and i were wounded by a roadside bomb i nearly died but i'm standing here tonight because i got the best military and civilian medical care in the world and because i was very very lucky tonight i will tell you about soldiers and marines who have gone off to war and come b here's what happened beginning on a january morning last year two thousand and six was supposed to be the that the iraqi troops and police stood up in the us to down and bob really wanted to go in there and find out how difficult that challenge was this was the biggest story in the world frankly so we wanted to be there at the same time we recognized there were risks as there are for all of our people as they go to iraq to cover this war bob and i have been in iraq many times before that there is a sense of danger to it there's a sense of excitement to it and there's you know there's a sense of great responsibility that comes with being there with covering this war we all knew each other very well magnus have known for fifteen vinnie i've known for a number of years working with peter jennings that worked with bob in iraq and numerous occasions and we had the right team for this we had the best people were doing the job we learned but at the same time we just want to do our job and get out of there because he knew that things were really bad and getting worse but today today's mission we're going to be doing a sector battlefield circulation getting up to see the a o the plan was we're going to take him to three sites and then the final rocky military protecting while we're at access point two patrol rolled by and stop wanted to know if he could write a long with them to experience an iraqi patrol firsthand and so i put them into the back of the vehicle but i closed the doors behind him and i felt pretty comfortable that everything was going to be ok really really noisy but you can try one the tank noise is so loud his voice is just lost in this rumbling of this tank so we decided it's not going to work just forget it so bob would come back down and we had a discussion he said ok but you know bob can stay crouched down in  tank for more than ten seconds and so he immediately popped up at this time into the other tank hole where doug was i was filming the coconut grove and then the iraqi gunner said to me this is a very bad area because there's lots of insurgents there and i thought it's a public place for us to get down and shortly after he said that lotions and soldiers or people screaming and i remember noticing a hole in the side of his neck i could move up was just some sort of convulsion and he was kind of the only thing that i knew how to do at that moment was just put my hand over his neck turned his face i remember alive i said you're alive you're going to be ok my alive and i just kept telling him to hang in there is going to be fine we're going to get out of here we need out of here the phone rang and the voice said me this is david westin who's the president of a b c news and my heart sort of stopped you know i knew that this wasn't good they said bob stand her and we think he's taken shrapnel to the brain and  a couple of hours was out and we were told it was not life threatening and he would in all likelihood survive while bob was still in surgery and we didn't know i couldn't quite believe it bob was on top of the world i mean he was he was the anchor of the evening news he was in iraq he was riding this wave it was really hard to believe that this was happening i can still remember watching them take bob and the tarmac to load them into the plane that was going to take us back to germany i was going to get them out of iraq and soon as i walked into the plane i saw  of soldiers soldiers and marines that had been wounded some seriously wounded and lying in these bunk beds almost and i remember thinking to myself