good morning jeff help or appellants in the wake of the lower court's ruling that the jail for violating the constitution by following state law a number of horrific instances indicat just under the influence i've already lost on a charge of drugs not alcohol i understand being under the influence of drugs which just seems to me is different from for example possession or trafficking charge without any articulable facts ingesting that this particular person had done anything secrete drugs in a body cavity that would not have been discovered in the course of a routine dancer and that's sort of in a i have quoted explicitly in the briefs so i won't read them again to you here especially because of the time constraints that in the four ninth circuit decisions trials thompson kennedy and fuller it explicitly states that the search policy of the local detention facility violated the constitution because the surge policy in practice had nothing to do with drugs weapons or violence judge hall spot poll opinion for the court in kennedy versus los angeles police department clearly said this was an ordinary squabble between two roommates about a television  quote it had nothing to do with drugs weapons or violence so we aren't told in any of the four ninth circuit decisions that govern pretrial detention facilities performing visual only unclothed body cavity searches by a deputy informational level of reasonable suspicion needed to perform a visual only strip search so we don't have any statement in these four cases so you need to show a track record of disaster we're told if it relates to drugs weapons or violence you can do visual only on clothes search because it had to do with violence judge crime let me address your question though about the that we need to show disastrous examples in order to take advantage of or follow to judge ward last question i hear that he's being primarily qualified immunity so we've got now straight up the question of whether the blanket policy on this record constitutional within the meaning of those four cases i'm talking about the constitutional question i know you think you are i'm just telling you right then and there that i think primarily to be saying that even if there's something wrong with this policy on this record these officers couldn't possibly have known it because of the things we all said he's for things that that's certainly true that's a logical corollary of what i'm saying but i'm saying if you're a local jail official trying to model your conduct after the ninth circuit and derive jurisprudential principles of law you would read giles thompson kennedy and fuller and you would say oh of course they couldn't search because they searched all felony  everyone but you would say these court cases held that if it dealt with drugs weapons or violence occurred that's the problem i mean they what they hold then they basically say but we're not concerned here with contraband drugs or violence so we've never previously uphill or downhill a blanket policy of inmate was discovered attempting to smuggle contraband into the institution on his person maybe more a testament to the effectiveness of this search technique as a deterrent than to any lack of interest on the part of inma create an import such items where the opportunity arises and so if the policy were working as modeled on chiles thompson kennedy fuller and penal code forty thirty cheney you would expect it in the language of are sixty three the facilities target and body gatling submitted a declaration in which he said that notwithstanding the security protocol there have been instances where inmates have attempted to and managed to smuggle drugs into the facility and she describes instances where guards have been picked with syringes and found drugs so i would like to respond to something else you said too because it intrigued me in by the seventh circuit in that case the civil rights plaintiff was relying on the line of tenth circuit authority and the seventh circuit in kraushaar versus flanagan said two things first of all heavy clothing like denim jeans would easily conceal a postage stamp with a dozen hits of lysergic acid diethylamide on it second of all it creates an evil far worse than it solves beacons because instead of a quick cursory glance in a private room of just two categories of offenders by a deputy of the same gender you would invite a more much more intrusive frisk to deter  of razor blades and postage stamps with l s d hits on them so the seventh circuit and crashed hard did reject that argument and i see the kraushaar opinion as being better for constitutional rights because i think society would rather have a the court my name is really well i represent no way she's the telly the plaintiff in the underlying court nonmoving party yours whatever discussion that we have today and needs to be taken in context general jail population strike that if no one is going into the general jail population you can't get drugs from point a to point b if you're not going there if this is the booking cell and that's the general jail population and someone comes and they bail out and they never go there you don't need to do this you know you can get to that point with regard you know so my first one is a matter of physics if someone doesn't go in the general jail population this way bailed out then go there if you don't go there you can't bring drugs from point a to point b would you say that there are number one circuit cases out there that say that the nature of the charge could provide a reasonable suspicion for body cavity search giles thompson community in full or i believe the exact language is reasonable suspicion may be derived from the nature of the charge comma their appearance and so even if the charges long will get you there the charge without going to the jungle population defeats the whole point and get back to the bell versus wolfish argument if you have a legitimate concern you get to do this on less than probable cause if you're not going to the general we started two cases if you if you don't buy the physics argument you're not going in the general job population which that's the that's what church marshals it was no weapons you know i think the thing that you're good factors in that