good afternoon everyone the legislative hearing by the subcommittee on insular affairs oceans and wildlife will come to order today we will hear testimony concerning h r thirty eighty six the global while live conservation coordination and enhancement act of two thousand nine hundred committee rule four g the chairwoman and the ranking minority member will make opening statements people across the globe depend on bio diversity for food and water for the regulation of climate and disease and for maintaining the natural balance and resilience of the earth if those systems unfortunately over the past few hundred years the mire raid threats facing global wildlife have been intensifying and the rates of species extinction have accelerated in the twentieth century we finally came to recognize the very serious negative consequences that result when bio diversity is diminished and the ecosystems health dig degraded for more than a century the united states has taken steps both domestically and abroad to conserve wildlife preserve biodiversity and maintain healthy eco systems as a result the united states now is largely regarded as the global front runner in international fish and wildlife conservation and our systems of public lands the envy of the world and our knowledge and technical abilities in the conservation of wildlife and wildlife habitat it mired in emulated despite a record of innovation in progress evidence from field indicates that  conservation efforts have been at best partially effective in the one hundred tenth congress this committee convened two hearings to highlight challenges confronting global while live conservation the daunting scale of the illegal trade in wildlife expose the inefficiencies and the in adequacy s of existing programs within the department of the interior and across other federal agencies in addition our reliance s to monitor the regulated trade of wildlife appears in significant considering the scale of the threats and the huge unmet needs for assistance in the field moreover lack of awareness by the united states consumers on how their purchases form a growing global market for illegally traded wildlife indicates that our public outreach needs improvement h r thirty eighty is intended to address these concerns and others we have an excellent opportunity to work with the new administration to more broadly engage the department of the interior with the global conservation community the legislation proposes new structures new tools and new direction to guide this effort and most importantly new priorities to broadly engaged a coder's and the american public in this effort it also includes similar to those in congressman young's bill h r thirty one ninety eight and i look forward to working with him on that and the broader scope of issues in compas in h r thirty eighty six i realize that since r thirty eighty six was introduced that some observers have expressed concerns about the bill is specially provisions that would upset the bureaucratic status quo of course you do not have to be in this town long to i realize that the quickest way to spark an argument is to propose rearranging the bureaucracy nevertheless this dilatory tendency should not be allowed to prevent us from engaging in a very important dialogue to really reinvigorate and reenergize wildlife conservation as a tool for u s diplomacy and leadership abroad and so to that and i welcome the views of all and i stand ready to roll up my sleeves and set to work on the task at hand we have no time to waste i now recognize mr brown the ranking republican member of the subcommittee the gentleman is from south carolina r thirty nine eighty six you would create a new law an office called is due to the international law of conservation and you global wildlife coordinating council you international law of conservation fund and your emergency rehabilitation recovery grant program a number of possible visions in h r thirty six there is no indication of what it would cost at taxpayers to create this new federal bureaucracy and what ultimately happens in international affairs office which apparently left issues psyche's permits and an endangered species list and this legislature will require a massive reorganization not only the fish of all the service but also a number of other federal agencies and a chair we also support while they have conservation whether this year in the united states of international have the opportunity to see these animals in the in their natural habitat is there for frustrating that despite my requests my specific request to spend a little time digesting the details of this fifty two page bill prior to its introduction it was full steam ahead with n gentleman from south carolina the ranking member of this subcommittee and before i recognize the members of the panel i would like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter in support of h r thirty eighty six submitted by the wildlife conservation society the statement is that john f cal valley executive vice president public affairs wildlife conservation society hearing no objection so ordered like to also will recognize one other member of our committee the gentle lady from the virgin islands donna christiansen who is here with us thank you very much donna and now i'd like to recognize our panel of witnesses to testify our witnesses include dr rowan gold the acting director of the fish and wildlife service mr billow derek who i had the opportunity to meet yesterday she is an actress a model and an activist and she is a board member of wild aid dr carter roberts president of the world wildlife fund dr steven montfort acting director smithsonian national zoological park dr sam wants or director center for conservation biology university of washington and finally dr j craig potter international wildlife lawyer law offices of j craig potter i welcome you all this afternoon to the panel and  as we begin i would like to note for all the witnesses that the red timing light on the table will indicate when five minutes have passed and your time has come clude we would appreciate your cooperation in complying with these limits but via sured that your full written statement will be submitted for the hearing record and at this point i would now like to recognize dr gould could you please begin thank you for the the opportunity to present the administration's view on h r thirty eighty six the global wildlife conservation coordination and enhancement act of two thousand and nine h r thirty eighty six focuses on the role the united states plays in the conservation of wildlife and natural resources around the globe and expands the mandates of the u s fish and wildlife service in international wildlife conservation while the administration supports the subcommittee's intent to further international conservation efforts we have serious concerns with the bill and cannot support it as drafted we appreciate subcommittee's continued support of the multinational species conservation acts and look forward to continuing to work with you to conserve rare and endangered species through m o u's and other agreements that department of interior and its bureaus cooperate with over one hundred countries on environmental conservation and natural resource management the committee should be aware that other agencies within v o y have international conservation responsibilities and programs however since i am currently serving as the acting director of the u s fish and wildlife service the remainder of my testimony will be focused on the services international activities the service has a proven track record of achievement in international conservation both through our proactive efforts with programs such as wildlife without borders and  in forstmann of u s treaties and laws that regulate international wildlife trade the service has cultivated a broad reaching network of partners around the world that support our international conservation efforts i would like to highlight some of the successes that the services international affairs and law enforcement programs have demonstrated since its ads inception the services wildlife without borders program has strived to facilitate and promote meaningful international conservation efforts to serve the world's diverse species we have kolob or collaborated with over five hundred international conservation organizations and institutions to support more than eight hundred conservation projects around the world we appreciate the subcommittee's interest in strengthening the administration's international conservation efforts in general we support the bills provisions that would cause a fire the services wildlife without borders program with modifying language to retain the secretary's discretionary authority to implement the program the service through its law enforcement program is the principal federal agency responsible for enforcing u s laws and treaties that prohibit wildlife trafficking and regulate wildlife trade the program has long supported the efforts of other nations to improve wildlife law enforcement capacity since two thousand service agents wildlife inspectors and forensic scientists have conducted or participated in more than seventy training programs for enforcement officers representing more than sixty different countries the administration does however have serious concerns with some of the provisions of the legislation first h r thirty eighty six establishes an institute for international wildlife conservation within the service creating this institute would cause conflict within the department of the interior as well as create overlapping responsibilities within the service it is unclear in the language of the bill how the proposed institute and the services existing international affairs and international wildlife trade programmes would fit together for these reasons we do not support the creation of a new institute to house the work that we are doing already second the bill mandates the contents of a strategic plan for service law enforcement we feel that this would undo restrict the next ability needed to direct law enforcement resources regarding the international wildlife conservation fund the administration is concerned that donations and gifts received by the secretary could present a conflict of interest if accepted from the same entity is that the service regulates finally the administration is concerned that the provisions of this bill would require significant new financial and staffing resources and does not provide any authorization level the expectation that the department of interior would support all of the new programs as currently written in the bill was not anticipated in the administration's f y two thousand and ten budget submission thank you chairman madam chairwoman for the opportunity to testify on h r thirty six the administration sincerely appreciates the subcommittee continued support of international wildlife conservation efforts this concludes my remarks and i would be happy to answer any questions at this time thank you very much dr gold for the services work  international wildlife conservation before we proceed for those standing in the back of the room if you wish to be seated you can sit on the chairs on the lower part here may be a long hearing and  i'm sure you would appreciate a seat thank you it is my pleasure now to introduce someone who is very passionate and i had the opportunity to meet and talk with her yesterday we share many of the same concerns and she has the opportunity to address you today i speak today as a board member of wild aid a conservation organization dedicated to ending the illegal trade in wildlife and on behalf of the animal welfare institute i am not speaking in my capacity as special envoy to the secretary of state on wildlife trafficking a position created under the last administration and continued under this one however my duties in this role have taken me across the united states and internationally to broaden my understanding of and passion for this important issue madam chairwoman wildlife knows no borders and nor should wildlife conservation efforts the united states has long been a leader in this field by encouraging other nations and by providing vital technical and financial support this bill would help to ensure we continue to lead in a way which is greatly appreciated and builds goodwill and strong bridge bridges with other nations in a very positive manner this bill is also an insurance policy against loss of biodiversity against the extinction of some species against wildlife crime and against the very real risk of the emergence and spread of a serious new disease epidemic an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and the programs proposed under this bill could help to vent billions of dollars of remedial measures down the line whether from expensive species recovery plans species entering the united states or from the cost of a disease outbreak illegal wildlife trafficking is an almost perfect vector for a new epidemic the origins of sars were traced back to exotic wildlife trade and that was an estimated cost to asian economies of some sixty billion dollars so perhaps instead of can we afford this the question should be can we afford not to take this action i would like to concrete example my own experience in the galapagos islands of ecuador on the positive impact our support can make the galapagos marine reserve is one of the largest in the world and want to stablish ing it in  ecuador made an appeal for outside support there were almost no resources available for a lot and forstmann in this world heritage site this is a typical situation in less wealthy nations while they are prepared to forgo converting wilderness into farmland or short term gains from fisheries and exploitation pressing human needs mean they find it hard to finance adequate protection for these areas meanwhile on the other side there was a fleet of foreign and ecuadorian boats raiding the reserve for shark fin tuna and sea cucumbers on a daily basis now with us to sit assistance from both private and public sources you know some of the best marine protection cubes of the ladies anywhere in the world the u s has provided officers from our fish and wildlife and parks services for training rangers building strong ties with their ecuadorian counterparts and increasing their professionalism and morale we have finance and even a float plane and the last two months specially trained sniffer dogs have detected an illegal shark fin cache while in the first months of operation a state of the art satellite vessel monitoring system provided by u has led to the capture of four boats illegal fishing thanks to assistance and vessel maintenance they are now carrying out more patrolling with less staff and other costs what was a free for all has truly become a protected area only with the support of the united states often the wildlife ranger is the only law enforcement official in these remote regions and supporting them will have an impact in other security issues such as drug trafficking again in the galapagos they're wildlife action assets have led to the interception of cocaine in a number of cases this committee has previously heard how the united states is thought to be the second largest importer of illegal wildlife after china and i believe it is essential that we not only address the problems abroad but here too we could help our international partners by reducing demand for illegal wildlife here and helping them do the same in their countries unfortunately budget pressures have made it very hard for the u s fish and wildlife service to maintain its activities in this area do this and i have myself seen how public private partnerships can be the most cost effective method the state department's public service message with harrison ford carried out in partnership with wild aid has reached hundreds of millions around the world and cost the taxpayer less than one hundred thousand dollars while protect projecting a positive image of the united states in my dialogue with wildlife management professor professionals members staff n g o s and other interested parties i find a tremendous consensus on the need for this bill as currently drafted there are a number of concerns that have been expressed to me from institutional issues to concerns that the current cost and complexity may prevent it moving forward on the cost issue i believe a less ambition program ambitious program now can always be enhanced down the line upon proven success and that this issue should not be allowed to prevent the bills with progress frankly given the overwhelming support for the core goals more of these issues seem to be too difficult to reconcile with some con with some concerted dialog and i believe that with the chairs leadership and input from both sides of the house and interested agencies we can rapidly arrive at a bill that can join all our support and move with unstoppable momentum that it needs just as wildlife has no geographical borders conservation knows no political borders it is absolutely a bipartisan issue with passionate advocates from both parties and i would urge both sides to unite and can for for the passage of this bill and fight for the resources necessary to make it a reality thank you madam chairwoman i thank you mr ickes for your continued leadership and your passionate interest in this particularly in international wildlife conservation and for your support of h r thirty eighty six and now we recognize dr roberts welcome to the subcommittee and you are now recognized to testify for five minutes thank you madam chairman and honorable members of the committee it is a great pleasure to be here today i speak on behalf of debbie to b f and our five million members around the world and also on behalf of our staff who work in partnership with u s agencies around the world on this very topic some say that the united states invented conservation it's true that our country has a long legacy of conserving the natural world and recognizing its dependence on the same all you have to do is look around this room at the grand paintings that depict the history of our country and the relationship between our people in the natural world politically its wildlife we have done an exceptional job conserving our wildlife in the united states over time and we have a long legacy of helping other countries do the same and this bill makes some important steps forward in strengthening our ability to do that quickly through the fish and wildlife agency if you go to most other countries where we work you can see this relationship between people and wildlife and it's quite strong it's powerful but it needs help and our u s agencies which have the expertise the legal talent the scientific talent the application of approaches have much to offer in this regard species extinctions are now something on the order of a thousand times greater than their background level because of the loss of habitat but also perhaps more importantly the lack of capacity in countries where this important wildlife exists and we have a responsibility to help those countries build that capacity this bill recognizes that need and it syncs to strengthen our ability to address that need the bill also needs work i want to just comment on the parts that world wildlife fund supports the most in those parts those parts that need work the parts that we believe are at the core of this bill is the emphasis on saving wildlife where it lives in the wild and quickly the wildlife without borders program of the species programs dad is at the heart of the applaud the intent to make that happen and finally we applaud the effort to strengthen the ability of the whole agency to do its work there are some issues that we ask the committee to keep an eye on one is to keep it simple coordination that also brings complication is never quite welcome and there are ways to make this bill work that will keep the administration in the coordination simple that includes the encourage the committee to keep the core goal simple there are lots of goals lots of language in the committee that refer to different pieces of wildlife conservation and we just encourage the committee to keep wildlife in wild places at the heart of th finally and i think just about every speaker here will say the same thing improving the coordination the ability of fishing while the patients the agencies to do this work without improving the appropriations to get it done is somewhat of a half victory and we'd encourage you to look hard at what is required to succeed in this very important work and to appropriate the amount of funds that the agency truly needs  with that work and improving the bill so i hope you'll count on us but also happy to answer any questions thank you thank you very much dr roberts for the tireless work that your organization conducts to protect global bio diversity monfort thank you for being here with us today and you are now recognized to testify thank you chairwoman and distinguished members of the subcommittee for the opportunity provide testimony today the smithsonian's national zoo scientist were among the founders of the field of conservation biology and today our scientists conduct research that aids in the survival recovery of species and their habitats and we work to ensure the health and well being of animals both in zoos and in the wild national zoo is actually part of the association of zoos and aquariums whose two hundred eighteen member organizations collectively reach more than one hundred seventy five million visitors annually and reach out to them about the importance of animals and wild places and also about the role but they can play in helping to preserve and conserve these places smithsonian feels it has a responsibility to preserve biodiversity in part because of our ethical and moral commitment that relates to our own living collection of animals but also because we believe that the public increasingly expects zoos and natural history museums to be the champions for conservation of animals in nature and zoos are rising to the challenge and in a z a there are more than three thousand seven hundred  conservation and research programs that have been supported in more than one hundred countries and there are now one hundred species survival plans that reach one hundred sixty separate species in need of conservation these programs focus on genetic diversity and habitat preservation public education also field conservation and maybe most importantly research in science that's aimed at assisting species recovery efforts no conservation program as effective without effective partnerships so that the nationals do we reach out and partner with diversity of partners across the usa and internationally this is a broad spectrum of people ranging from conservation scientists and public policy experts educators non governmental organizations and so on one particularly relevant partnership for this act is our newly our consortium which is the conservation centers for species survival or c two s two and this is a recently formed consortium of five zoological organizations in the united states that control more than twenty five thousand acres of land that is available for species research and recovery and our partners include prestigious organizations like the b center in texas the san diego wild animal park in california conservation center in florida and the wilds in cumberland ohio these facilities have large amounts of space specialized facilities and staff with the expertise needed to work on helping to conserve glow threatened species and especially those that have been determined to be a priority by the u s fish and wildlife service and also state state wildlife agencies we also believe that given the environmental challenges that are currently facing the planet that there's no greater need than to train the current the next generation of conservation professionals at a z a institutions they reach over twelve million people each year who are educated in some way through their visit to zoos and more than four hundred thousand teachers have been reached over the past decades but the national zoo we invest heavily in k twelve education programs also teacher training programs and we emphasize the importance of understanding biodiversity and especially the role that humans play in shaping its future with certain we seek to enter it we seek to actually explain why conservation matters why it should matter including to how it impacts things like human health and economic security and we want to help people determine how they can understand how they can make a difference we had a major commitment to educating conservation professionals around the world to help study recover and protect species in their habitats and we have programs for undergraduate students graduate professional audiences all based on scientific approaches to conservation and decision making over the past three decades we've trained over five thousand conservation professionals and more than eighty five countries and many of our graduates leasehold leadership positions around the world finally we feel that science is the fundamental aspect of solving any conservation program the smithsonian national zoo scientists are uniquely positioned to understand why there are some species that are going to survive and adapt while others will go extinct in the face of environmental change and we feel that that scientific knowledge is what's going to help us to forecast the changes that will contribute to population declines and extinctions and but also how to develop and middle mitigation strategies that will help to make these from becoming versatile changes we have particular expertise in studying the fundamental biology of species something that we that people assume we know more than we actually do discovering understanding the ecological factors that impact biodiversity including human impacts and also things like prioritizing species and landscapes that are in need of conservation and then developing tools and concepts that can help us to mitigate the impact at the national zoo and at the smithsonian as a whole we have one of the largest faculties of conservation of biodiversity scientists anywhere in the world that are dedicated to understanding the fundamental biology of species the complexity of natural ecosystems and human impact common objectives thank you for the opportunity to testify today on these critical conservation issues and i look forward to answering your question thank you very much dr montfort for highlighting the important role that zulus play in international wildlife conservation and for supporting the conservation goals and in this piece of legislation dr west welcome to the subcommittee you are recognized now to testify for five minutes thank you madam chairwoman i appreciate the invitation to appear here today and appreciate the entire subcommittee's time afforded me developing nations hold some of our greatest biodiversity treasures but but they really need reliable information on the sources and magnitude of the risks facing them to be able to we use cc's because it's the most successful wildlife product in nature and its collection is entirely noninvasive we work closely with wildlife authorities and n g o s and the application of these tools to wildlife conservation in a on a global scale i'll describe t ten percent of the population annually demand from high paying industrialized nations such as china u s and japan are driving this trade because the price of ivory to increase nine fold in the past five years and this is become a very high profit low risk we also determine their modus operandi d n a from species is used to map the elephant genetics across the entire continent of africa we then match the same d n a from ivory to this map and that allows us to determine the major poaching hotspots in africa prior to our work law enforcement thought that the large ivory cesar's consist of people assembling ivory from stocks across africa kind of cherry picking and what we found though was that poachers are repeatedly hammering the same populations over and over again and as though they got a purchase order from dealers a to get a certain number of tests at a certain to certain period of time we also found that these poachers and dealers tend to smuggle ivory to neighboring countries before they export it's a risk reduction strategy so that poachers are unable to finger the dealer should they get caught these tradition traditional investor korean medical measures really would be unable to detect those kinds of trends like h r thirty six we contend that source countries are really the best place to contain this illegal trade we help them to do this by identifying the poaching hotspots focus seeing the limited unfortunate resources of these poor countries and key poaching areas this present illegal wildlife trade from products from entering the international market where the massive volume of containers shipped daily and made daily make this trade logistically and economically nearly impossible to trace once it enters the global market this strategy of focusing on the source countries is also one of the only ways to keep wallet from being killed in the first place we have exposed with our work some of the largest source countries in this illegal trade and we have found them openly denying their involvement these methods can also be applied to other wildlife trade such as illegal timber and the tiger trade and it's important to recognize that this industry is currently between five and twenty billion dollars per year annually and this is a tremendous impact to our biodiversity now the second applications of this that i want to speak to is monitoring human disturbance impacts over large landscapes while we pioneered measures to get d n a and physiological products from feces we also went further to develop affective methods of finding them we actually train detection dogs essentially analogous to narcotics does to simultaneously locate large numbers of samples across most from multiples target species across huge parts of the wilderness daws work and have a test from deserts to sis's savanna rainforest open sea areas and species as diverse as pocket my spotted owls jaguar caribou wolves tigers and anteaters the comprehensive sampling by these does has enabled us to develop d n a based methods that simultaneously estimate the population sizes distributions of multiple species over remote landscapes with a high degree of precision we get stress hormones reproductive hormones nutritional hormones toxins immunoglobulins all of which enable us to develop an entire paul panel of the animal that allows us to partition the impacts of these pressures occurring in response to environmental pressures these combine tools allow us to assess change in animal abundance and distribution of along with the causes of those changes over huge last and this is an valuable tools for guarding managers about what and how to mitigate in some developing nations hold some of the most important resources involve diversity around the world and if we do not act now to develop methods that help guide their practices then we will be in trouble thank you thank you very much dr webster for your commitment to wildlife research for over thirty years and for your support of this important legislation and now i'd like to recognize mr potter you can begin thank you m chair distinguished members of the committee it's a great honor for me to be here today to present my views on this legislation and related matters although i'm here as a citizen and the taxpayer i have some experience with these issues going back for many years i was actually the deputy assistant secretary of the department of the interior when we established a line item for the wildlife without borders program i was also at interior when we reauthorized the endangered species act the last time was reauthorized which was in  two i left government in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight and i've been involved on the outside with these issues one way or another ever since i guess i had the good fortune of the bad fortune as it may be to have seen these issues from both sides and so i bring to you my perspective with that in mind many of the points that i want to make with respect to this legislation have already been made so i will try to succinctly highlight just a few key items first of all with the introduction of this bill and on july fourteenth with the introduction of h r thirty one ninety eight i believe this subcommittee has come to the brink of a huge opportunity you have an opportunity as i see it to use the broader purposes of r thirty eighty six as a foundation from which to take action now on the authorization of the wildlife without borders program in my written state i described my perspective on the various programs within the wildlife without borders program with respect to the species program in particular congress has appropriated since one thousand nine hundred eight some sixty seven million dollars and that's been matched by approximately one hundred fifty million dollars from the private sector this program in my view is probably the most effective grant program in government and i think that through the multi species conservation funds and the oversight that this committee has with respect to those matters this program is a key obviously to wildlife without borders the regional programs and the global programs provide an amazing opportunity for my view to look at the heart of the future of this program which is capacity building the concerns that i have with h r thirty six have been to some extent explained but the basic concern i have is that an overemphasis on that bill at this time may dilute the opportunity to really think about what wildlife without borders has done and where it can go in the future the final point that i'd like to make with respect to wildlife without borders is reflective of the written testimony of my distinguished colleagues on this panel and in fact myself i note that at least three dates of inception that are quoted the opportunity to be seen and viewed and it has expanded and it's time for this committee and subcommittee to take take consideration of what might be done with it in the future more importantly i think that the opportunity is here to officially recognize and authorize the wildlife without borders program as it should be recognized and authorized and i think that the important point i hope would not be long in the last in the subcommittee whil life without borders was mentioned rather than the fact that wildlife do not recognize borders was wrecking was mentioned by mister i think that point needs not to be lost on us without international cooperation an increasing number of these species will be lost but the point is that they do not recognize international boundaries and the wildlife without borders name itself centers on that very issue if the  decides and chooses to embrace any or all of the many new programs that are encompassed in h r thirty eighty six i think you could do that with the with the reauthorization or the authorization of wildlife without borders and with the convening of an advisory committee to look at the many points that have been raised in this proposed legislation but i'm fearful for some of the reasons that have been mentioned here by my colleagues and for conspecifics answers that i have and we can address further if you want that if we dilute that effort now we may lose the opportunity to deal with the very important programs this point in time thank you very much for the opportunity to express my views on this important legislation thank you very much mr potter and now i will recognize the members for any questions they may wish to ask alternating between the majority and the minority and allowing five minutes for each member and if you have further questions we may go a second round i'll begin with  mr herrick these questions are i think very generic how can the united states maintain its leadership role in international wildlife conservation do you have any specific ideas i really in the time that i've spent on this issue and in my travels in an official capacity i really think that the the best results have been a combination of the u s government support and n g o s i think that their knowledge in the field on the ground and in the communities is vital and i think it's it's the best way our tax dollars get spent on these important issues very good and why is it important to increase public awareness among united states consumers regarding the illegal trade of wildlife well as an american i was surprised that we were number two in consuming endangered wi e and i believe that so much of that is is a lack of education i think that that most citizens would not consume these animals that they lean you and i think that there are a variety of ways to to educate them and i think it's vital i think that we could solve the problem without getting more involved in law enforcement and prosecution if we just go through use education education and how his wild aid demonstrated that public awareness campaigns can change consumer behavior what have you done in that area are our campaigns very very much resemble mainstream commercial advertising the very the production is very expensive and we use pop icons from around the world specially targeted to those countries where the consumer consumption of endangered wildlife is a problem so for instance in china we have jackie chan yao ming virtually all the olympic athletes we had a very big campaign during the two thousand and eight olympics and we were reaching sometimes through free free airspace we were reaching sometimes a hundred billion people i mean a billion people a week it's highly effective and it's my opinion having been  object of of the media at one time in my life that when you take someone who is so popular and iconic in a culture and you have them say that this is not appropriate to consume these these products i think it's more effective than any legislation or enforcement and are we just did a study in china and fifty five percent of the population remember our campaigns and in some questions up to eighty percent said that they would not eat shark fin soup again well i tend to agree with you on that using noted personalities and so forth what is the size of your organization what to what are the numbers it's very small but highly effective highly effective area small well that might i joined us on this organization because i meet a lot of people very dedicated wonderful people regarding this issue and they're very good it at defining the problem and while that had a solution that i could truly understand about why i personally got involved are you represented in all the states in the united states and other countries or just how mainly international yes mainly international yes alright well as we've we'd like to get more involved in this country with the public awareness  o expand you know the organization yes thank you thank you i have one question and then i'll go on are two questions for dr gold aside from the administration's stated objections to the organizational reshuffling does the administration support the goals and activities of the bill especially increased public outreach and education increased emphasis on professional conservation training here and abroad and greater cooperation in coordination with non governmental stakeholder organizations i can answer that question for very concise way yes yes it's important to recognize the fish and wildlife service has been indicated by the panel here worked very closely with geo community it works with international and of these we've always recognized the fact that these kinds of partnerships outreach  training appropriate law enforcement activities of coordination and cooperation is the best way to get to where we want to be collectively everybody in this room supports international wildlife conservation and we're all kind of on the same page and i'm delighted to point out that all of those entities that you pointed out or cornerstones for effective partnerships to get to be the basis of  eventually a law that will be very effective in international conservation activity good i guess then i could it would be safe to say that just the organizational reshuffling is a little concern to you is that to the organizational issue is is a major concern for us as you are probably aware that we have sides functions national park service as some do to their organic has some very legitimate assistance perspective there are lots of programs out there that need to be based on their own authorities and in their own organic acts are legitimate activities that need to be recognized in a broader conservation law that takes this whole international conservation effort forward well perhaps it's just too strong out and we need really to to to bring it all together and and i think this can be worked out so we look forward to working with you in your department administration looks forward to working with you how does the service handle confiscated wild in endangered animals and could that process be simplified and improved by formal well we have a national property repository in the denver area where we do stockpile of the a lot of the material that we see this utilize for some of the training that we deliver the training of our own personnel and then availab for variety of uses and at some point we will make a determination as to the best use of the stuff including disseminated under our suitcase for survival program that we provide to elementary schools with a training module that further helps those items are used to further conservation the conservation message within the u s thank you very much now i'd like to ask our ranking member mr brown programs i think that's possible mr brown i think that's one of the issues that the subcommittee needs to take into consideration and i think that number of points have been made here about the unfunded mandates issue i mean if if some of the programs and reports are required to be done under this legislation presumably those may have to be done by existing staff fishwife shares that's not clear at all in the bill and so that would be a concern i would have yes you could you want to we own it course and yes i do right now the international conservation work that we do in the fish and wildlife service is maxed out in terms of the amount of money we have to do the work we're doing much much more could be done obviously if we were to add increased infrastructure including many by to regroup that may be redundant that kind of sight advisory groups are already in place would require a diversion of resources that we would have to take from somewhere and unfortunately that somewhere would be some very effective programs in the wildlife without borders program and we would not like to see that happen obviously if we work together and minimise unnecessary or better overlapping infrastructure we could more effectively use the resources we have available right now ok let me add further to the question would it be correct to state that you believe more could be accomplished  but yes i agree with that and i and to augment the point that was made by rowan i think one of the things that h r thirty eight eighty six offers you the opportunity to do is to really look at the costs here and think about what needs to be done and that could be done under the ages of an advisory committee in concert with the expansion of where authorisation of while i without borders any other members of the panel would like to chime in utilizing their money very very effectively it's extremely important mechanism to get funding to outside nations as well as to include scientists such as myself to be able to develop methods that can be very effective and and can nurture collaboration between other countries and the fish and wildlife service was there in you do you recognize that there are concerns aspects of the bill would you support authorizing only the wall life without borders program i would have to discuss this with some of the remember the witnesses i think  for me to have a concrete opinion on that ok but that that is your number one  thank you matthew i thank the ranking member the gentleman south carolina mr brown and now i'd like to recognize the general ady from the virgin islands mr christiansen thank you madam chair and i want to also thank the witnesses for their testimony is really very informative as i read through it i want to also commend our chairwoman for her efforts to stop illegal trafficking of wildlife and the adverse impact that has a variety of habitats and eventually on all of us my question my first questions around the institute i want to understand the need for the institute so maybe i'll start with mr roberts on this  what is it that the institute would do that the department of interior and the service is not doing or cannot do thing is to strengthen the existing programs but also to strengthen coordination between them it appears there's a variety of ways to strengthen coordination our plea is to simplify rather than complicate to coordinate without complicating complications and to simplify the administration of this program which means realign as much as possible on existing programs and making sure that the financing to the greatest extent possible is managed by the fish  service itself so you're asking me to rational ok provide a rationale for something that is not the core of the bill that we support at this point in time i would agree with mr roberts i think that you know unless it can enhance the work that is already being done by the fish and wildlife i don't think it's at the core either ok well i wondered about that and so that need to be worked through we absolutely support coordination and cooperation but this particular structure could be problematic for those reasons does anyone else want to talk to the importance of the council  abbott's is that something that you that one of the core parts you support you know the case of the council in and of itself seems like a perfectly worthwhile idea bringing together different agencies with interest  wildlife and it's interesting when you when you look at i have in front of me i have a have another meeting following on the arctic when you look at what it all the different parts of the u government that touch conservation and wildlife certainly coordination is essential been having light mechanisms to make that happen are essential in the case of the arctic  it's of interest to interior to the state department to the white house to the navy to fish and wildlife and more and having mechanisms for the u s government to come  together with coordinated coherent planning is essential particularly because in a lot of parts of the world the conservation of wildlife the the rule of law sustainable use of resources is as much a security issue as much an issue development is it is a conservation issue per se and so having a mechanism to bring the gather the intelligence of the u s government roberts could the u s government be doing a better job of giving organizations like your own a seat at the table when it comes to the creation execution of an international conservation strategy f and also the wildlife monitoring trade program we have called traffic we've created with asean have been grateful for the partnership we've had with the u s government which goes  decades could it be stronger sure are we complaining now we we have such a close partnership with government agencies and there's such a track record of success in places like the congo and africa with particular species in the terai ark in nepal which is the centerpiece actually there's an exhibit in the national zoo which talks about this partnership conservation arc and the paul and so we're grateful that the bill emphasizes those partnerships and if it makes them stronger great thank you  i have one less point i'm sorry for him the other thing which is true is that for every dollar which is expended through fish and wildlife in partnership with n g o s and the like those dollars are multiple multiplied sometimes five fold and so it's only smart for the government to encourage such partnerships because not only are we able to bring expertise a global reach but also we're able to bring financing from other sources to bear on the problem i have another question for you dr roberts how can the structures created within this particular bill be changed to better achieve the intent of greater coordination and cooperation within the department of interior and among s agencies in international wildlife conservation efforts at a great question i certainly the first order of business would be to make full and best use of the structures that currently looking at models of how that might work another point that i've made is the financing of this work to use the fish and wildlife agencies is the first recourse to finance that work before using other entities i'm sure there are a lot of other ideas that we could bring to the table and happy to work with your committee to bring this forward well we're looking forward to it next the reason for and hearing so we can get some of the input from you i am a strong believer of coordinated efforts consolidating since i've been a member of this committee i don't know i just asked of the staff here  many organizations do we work with there's over hundreds of them all with some of them with the same purposes when they were organized and so it's very confusing and sometimes you don't get as much done when the testimony includes some very specific recommendations alluding structure simplification coordination and so i very good we will take the staff will take a look at that right thank you mr gould you mentioned the would create a conflict of interest because the same non governmental organizations that could donate to the fund would also be seeking resources from it now why is this a concern now it is my understanding that the current multinational species conservation funds allow the same kind of thing and no concerns about conflicts of interest have been raised before well as i understand it these  donated funds would also be potentially donated by an adiz that could come under both our regulatory and law enforcement functions or oversight and so it could set up a situation where there might be a conflict of interest or some issue that might be looked on in by our in a non ethical way and so we're concerned about having a structure in place that would put our position our people in a position of working with people that are contributing a lot of money to this particular function here that remember we do permit a lot of related to legal trade within the international community legal trade groups i d s and so on and so forth so the concern is whatever structure gets set up potential that people would be questioning our role with those folks so for the record mr gould prior to this bill being introduced you had these concerns of the conflict and so forth yes we have these concerning q right now that's what i wanted to hear i have a couple of questions for  this christianson surely you go ahead and i have two more it's related to the to the fund as well and i was wondering if given the concerns of conflict of interest and i would ask this anyone on the panel does anyone have a recommendation for how that can be adjusted and maybe a different structure for the fund or a different and the other way than how it's presented in the bill is there some other way that we could do that and avoid a conflict of interest that should a foundation be set up like the national park foundation or if there are any suggestion you can go ahead mr roberts if you have one though you didn't ok i have a thought on that it strikes me that you know you have a similarity here you mention the park fund national fish and wildlife foundation is an entity that does work similar work that allows matching activities and it isn't it's an entity that's outside the structure of the interior department but actually started within the structure of the and interior department and that's possible something to think about possibly thank you madam chip in the other answers that's my only other question i would like to make one other point activity and there's little chance that that money can there's any conflict of interest that could result from that kind of active that's a grant program for the vets multi species grant programs that we administer the concern is that law enforcement comes under this institute and if there was a general donation to this institute for general programs that could constitute a major problem that's what i meant by  we just don't see a way around that problem i'm sure that there are structures that we could come up with that would be beneficial but that is a particular problem with this bill thank you thank you madam chair i thank the general a d from the virgin islands i have two questions for dr montfort why is it important dr to engage the conservation community especially zoo and aquarium stakeholders in assisting the federal government in the conservation of wildlife mentioned in my previous remarks the new community consist of more than two hundred organizations and collectively they have of tremendous capacity to help in terms of conserving species in a variety of different ways  species recovery programs are one key way even small zoos can participate and doing recovery programs on species like and fabians for example where they don't need extensive facilities but they happen to have scientific expertise or capacity larger zoological organizations like the larger ones like the chicago's a lot school society or san diego zoo a number of other zoos including the smithsonian and bronx zoo and so on have quite an impressive capacity to do science capacity building training and do that pretty wide scale already and so i think what we're talking about is a resource that already exists and is already making a strong contribution but that has a much greater potential than is currently being exploited and i think that really relates to the whole issue of partnership the importance of partnership that's outlined in this bill but the kinds of partnerships that we're working around for example under the global tiger initiative that we're doing working with others with the world wildlife fund with world bank and so on to community as part of the conservation community and it's open to becoming more involved and more engaged in conservation activities so i think it's a very strong constituency in a number of levels that are relevant for the bill and thank you thank you dr one of the question is it helpful to have a program that authorizes the secretary to reimburses who's an aquarium for costs related to the care and the recovery and the rehabilitation of injured sick or seized wildlife and what limits should there be on such a program should certain facilities be identified or should the program be available to all facilities there are already a large number of zoos that are engaged in wildlife rehabilitation some that work in partnership with the fish and wildlife service then state wildlife agencies so that's something that's already ongoing and i'm sure that those issues with that capacity would very much appreciate having the opportunity to recover cost related to those those activities however is important to recognise there is a limited capacity and the species that are selected for those sorts of programs ought to have appropriate conservation prioritization put to them that we can't become a clearing house for every animal that's been confiscated or recovered and so for those that are of high priority and conservation value then that would certainly be appropriate but it's also equally and procreate to make sure that any organization involved in taking care of these animals is meeting the highest standards that we have to offer of animal care i believe we have that under the animal welfare act but even way above and beyond that we have the ability now with the modern zoological practice to provide really outstanding care in the sets really tight standards and i would think that that would be a good starting point for setting standards for going is a sions that we're involved in that kind of when when you said that  many of them already have this in place what percentage of the zoos across the nation would you say are carrying on with mrs i don't know the percentage it's actually there was a recent it was going around on the directors list serv the last couple of weeks i think it's actually a fairly small percentage it's quite a liability to take on and you end up warehousing animals that take up a lot of space and resources i think that you would see the participation the potential for participation to increase if funding available that that's what we tried to do when you said some of the zoos are already i figured it might be a large majority to the dismay it's probably a minority and those are taking it out of high basically to participate in those programs by and large and then i have two other questions for dr lasser can you elaborate on some of the broader impacts of illegal wildlife trade yes i think one of the biggest problems facing nations is acquiring hard currency in many of these poor countries and one of the most reliable sources of hard currency is their natural resources so frequently natural resources are  utilized to generate higher currency to keep regimes in power and this has tremendous impacts on biodiversity just if you just look at climate change alone you find that if you look at the  sorry if you look at the effects of the illegal timber trade right now that is probably one of the most egregious crimes going on this a peck in past climate change around the world if you look at the ability of of force structure to recover and you consider the amount of poaching that is occurring in african elephants where for example in central african force which is one of our most important sources of carbon capture and you have elephants which disperse billions of seeds annually and right now these numbers of elephants in that area have gone from two hundred thousand down to numbers probably near fifteen thousand elephants and so the whole forest structure is likely to change in the very near future so these are some of the impacts that are likely to happen and as i said there's also a serious relationship between the illegal wildlife trade especially the bush meat trade and spread of emergent diseases so these are all very very serious impacts that will have repercussions over the long term and sometimes they're hard to see in the short term i have another question why focus on source countries as opposed to consumer countries well one of the problems is is that if you look at the wildlife trade right now just the liberalization of trade laws to promote global trade has allowed has resulted in the situation where there are nearly a million containers being shipped around the world on a practically a daily basis and customs is able to inspect about one percent of these so when you think about that plus the fact that these crimes are very very low priority once the balik products and leave a country it's virtually impossible to really attract them effectively we get lucky a couple of times but most of the time it's really a very very difficult task the source countries can defend their wildlife much much more reliably they just need tools to direct them to the proper sources they've done it in the past and they don't it really relatively speaking it does not take a lot of money it takes vehicles gasoline perhaps the munitions and really the thought that people care and that will allow you to really contain this trade prevent you from getting into the global market where you cannot trace it and it will work in effect prosecution that's happening in this trade right now i thank you very much for your answer to that and i want to thank all of the witnesses for their participation in the hearing today you answers will certainly assist us as we go forward with this legislation and i want to thank dr gould the derek mr carter roberts dr montfort dr west sir and j craig porter for being with us and before we adjourn i would like to think one of our staff members our clerk meghan mohsen for her dedication and her work in this committee i have traveled with her and hearings throughout the country this is her last hearing with us today and her abilities and smile will truly be missed so let's give her a hand megan so if there is no further business before the subcommittee the chairwoman again thanks the members of the subcommittee and our witnesses for their participation here this morning and the subcommittee now stands