daughter who knows i think for you gretchen right nice job so i have to is instructions on how to exit the building in case of you thank you i am three is very exciting for the council this is the possible appointment of a counselor to serve in the position occupied by the late councilor pat no act through the twenty nineteen annual meeting of the voters and i am really pleased to let people know that a very very good friend of mine david kaufman a former state legislator david and i commuted together every day to montpelier for eight years we sat together in the state house we often had lunch together so he is one of my cousins and my best  friends and i i was really happy when he agreed to serve because he comes with a lot of public service experience and i think in many ways he's an appropriate replacement for pat in terms of his connections to the business community his longtime service to the city of south burlington and something i can think the positions he has certain things that he is his own person for sure but i think pat would be pleased so i would ask you to come forward and get sworn in control well i'm sorry we have to have an official vote so this is resolution twenty eighteen relating to deputy chief of police paul edwards whereas the members of the south bronx and city council are celebrating service to the citizens of south burlington  deputy chief edward and whereas the community has benefited from deputy chief edwards caring profession alyssum and leadership and we are as deputy chief edwards serve the people of south burlington for more than twenty seven years as a police officer and we're as during his time as the self burlington police officer he served in the roles of patrol officer detective corporal patrols sergeant detective sergeant support services ten and deputy chief and whereas deputy chief edward served as a law enforcement instructor and multiple subject areas and whereas he served as a field training officer helping to shape young officers into the tour police professionals and where is  edwards has worked deputy chief scuse me has worked tirelessly to fight for and support victims of crime and where as deputy chief edward served as the executive officer of the second largest hundred seventy second mountain infantry of the u s army national guard since the one nine hundred one and whereas deputy chief edwards exemplifies those qualities of importance in a police officer and a law enforcement executive to include integrity professionalism loyalty fairness and respect and now therefore be it resolved that on behalf of the residents of the city of self burlington the city council does hereby recognize and extend its deepest appreciation for deputy chief edwards service and dedication to the residents of the city of south burlington whose lives are the better for his years of service and the deputy chief edwards exemplified the commitment to justice and fairness that leads to making a true difference in a community and let it further be resolved that we the members of the city council recognize and honor our deputy chief of police paul edwards for his devotion to duty compassion for victims mentorship to other officers and commitment to community and let it further their signed copy of this resolution shall be presented to deputy chief paul edwards and that this resolution will be inserted in its entirety in the minutes of the south bronx and city council meeting dated may seventh twenty eight so i would entertain a motion for approval of this resolution so i can any further discussion all of them please signify by saying king thank you for taking this opportunity recognize my service to the city means a great deal to my family and me and my children on nights weekends holidays family events games milestones and if there was a reason for that it was valued to the greater good for the city itself as most policemen do i join to make a difference to the community i want to help from the outside it's always a good guys vs bad  guys the law is the law right and wrong type of situation but in very short order you realize i'm being a police officer means operating in a world of gray it takes a lot of my discretion and creative problem solving  to get the best outcomes for victims in my final assignment as deputy chief i was the officer who ran the day to day operations of the department issuing all of what is directives budget controls and the one who delivers the discipline the deputy chief really gets to deliver good news so what this is last thought my last opportunity to speak to you i like to take a minute to showcase the police to police officers are drawn directly from the community that we serve i've been a resident here for over thirty years i have a child and see him just about every one of the school systems here in town the police are not supposed to be an occupying force or a giant faceless corporation but instead a community based small organization that falls under local control and is manned by local citizens and the words people had to police officers are just people and people are police officers the police department is a solid unit dedicated and dedicated resourceful people that have the greater good of public safety and societal how many foremost in their minds regardless of what political party is untried and what current public sentiment prevails the police or a political civil authority that continues to perform and make strides and successes because of people like you you always threw your support behind us you always gave us your trust and you always believed in us and you were behind all of our efforts that meet that means a great deal to always be able to count on that support in my opinion are employees of the police department the city's spirit and greatest resource who are proud of the work they do for and the pot they play in the community policing style isn't it handsome community policing approach this includes the involvement of patrol officers in community policing and problem solved such as getting to know the people him that live in the patrol area and intend our schools but also to go into community community meetings and listening to neighborhood concerns developing plans to address community crime and disorder problems and leveraging local government services to improve the quality of life in our city our employees a dedicated and loyal we emphasize initiative flexibility participate participatory management teamwork caring in our organization holds is that we are community patas expected to provide the highest possible function to the community that we serve our officers and employee one employees want to be a significant part of the solution and never be a part of the problem i have been proud to be a part of this great group of professional and well trained officers for the past twenty eight years my experience here in this community was unlike any other public servant because this community support in the belief and trust in us these facts combined with the overriding principle that we work for the victims of crime and we must be real at relentless in our pursuit of the best possible outcome to serve justice has made this an extremely fulfilling career for me and while i was be proud of it i'm excited to start my next chapter of my life as a retiree but i'd be lying if i didn't i acknowledge that the things i've enjoyed most here and i'll miss most i hope you'll remember me as someone who did try to make a difference and did help this help but only thing community again thank you for permitting me to remain in this job so long truly enjoyed being here a thank you so much and obviously your comments and your emotion and the number of people here who came to celebrate reflect your commitment ten how much have sex possible second session right related to confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services to city council the applying men employment or evaluation of a public officer or employee labor relations agreements with employee of the council make a specific finding of premature general public knowledge of the negotiations of labor relations with employees as well as confidential attorney client communications may for the purpose of providing personal legal services to this body would clearly place a public body persons involved a substantial in favor signify by saying i i i know over the border into executive session for the purpose of discussing labor relations agreements with employees confidential attorney floyd communications and the appointment or employment or evaluation of a public officer or employee i would like to invite tom coburn and andrew boulder can do so city council meeting of monday may seventh twenty eighteenth and we'll continue with items seven which is comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda are there any  the streets across the street from the airport meaning look do patrick the lives of us maryland and delaware if at all possible if it's fun  if that's not a viable alternative possibly some decorative barriers with your permission of the land owners to be strategically placed to eliminate and dissuade the transients cars and vehicles that are costly parking their day and i who are going to do their business to the airport and sometimes some of those vehicles are not doing business at the airport they're doing break in business and residences so i just want to pass along and if that's not a viable alternative i would ask the city council to think about something in the future would respect to the police organization that would mount up on the telephone poles facing down the streets night vision high intensity surveillance cameras connected right into the police department to allow our police organization to be able to id the vehicles and take appropriate action thank you very much can i ask you we did bring this up that the in the lift group with the airport and they do have a designated area with signage and but and that's been in place maybe a couple months heard me at least a month so i'm curious if in the last month if you've seen any reduction in and lift vehicle parking on the streets i have seen a reduction in the so called professional cab drivers special specifically green cab but i have seen an increase in semis coming on my street on dello or street animal yes and greyhound buses and they've been ripping up the pretty good so i was getting ready to submit a bill to the various organizations say ok i don't know why they think that they can make the corner once they come on delaware street once they do they're kind of committed to it the car carrier that delivers vehicles to the airport every or every other week oh yeah so and the vehicle traffic on the dollar and specifically the corner off maryland if i was to i could set up a video camera to give you a video proof of how frequent it is but it's actually the traffic is actually increased everybody thinks that the cut is actually quicker there's going to the end of white stream going around it's not but they think it's quicker but then you g all the people who are parking the daisy chain and line up on through maryland there and i'm talking escalates in talking cadillacs i'm talking mercedes i'm not talking you're low in vehicles i'm talking you're your special definitely don't live on maryland they definitely have a do and it was a big battery and i know they don't live on my street so i'm just thinking of other alternatives to dissuade people from costly parking there and leaving a great big  special high energy drink cans those twenty four ounces big things yes and because i talked to the guys who mold all the lawns and they said the same thing they're picking up trash every day on several of properties that they own so it's it's their stuff away ok it's i wasn't aware of that it's picked up with more weather and they know enough to stay off my property because i've taken some other steps that ears to the point of several engagements with the young individual because he is younger than me the director has says well no you don't you need to bring up with south royce and because i guess that's a police issue and no it's your properties you need to have these people stay away so it's a little it's a little toss all i understand and i get it but it's like you know after the second attempt to break into my presidents i says ok i'm going to take more aggressive measures i now have cameras the next version i'm going to do is going to be live you tube feed rate to you tube people want to come break in my house they're going on you t start thank you very much david any other there was another hand i think  it kind of does a little descriptor and there is a second one to just have very simply petition to reopen j c park as its header so i have gone through the names on the petitions there are two hundred  i think you will accept that what we need can i ask you in order for a petition like this to be kind of legal do they have to be on our voter checklist or just a resident they have to be on the voter ok so it's really seventy signatures that are bonafide or are ok because otherwise would be no way to verify that are actually resident they gripe whenever his name down  to thank you any other questions or comments from the public all right moving on to number eight announcements  anyway so i have been in conversations about police firefighters and e m t thank with dinner of appreciation i'm not ready yet with all the details to come to the council and i am not going to come asking necessarily for your your your permission or any money but we do hope that if the council and or says this action then you don't attend and they would come and also looking for support to her should be at the next meeting with some details and i'm hoping it'll be this fall october eleventh and i'm also looking for a community members to get involved that people are interested or the other thing i have because of the tragedy that's been in the news of one of our residents some residents have reached out to me about the issue of domestic violence and they would love to see  will keep coming to mind is the community forums that we had during the rebel issues then we had another one or something if i don't know how to my go to elevate that but i was going to reach out to lisa betting ger or b b tom hubbard just to see what what memorandum of understanding a draft from the city of burlington and i shared that with you and i think in some point in another council meeting we should probably discuss what they came up with it i have to admit i have three pages and i didn't this kind of handed to us and we really didn't have neither of us had time to kind of get back into any firm sense of what we thought about it i think it's less than what we had hoped but it it's a start and we all agreed that it would be a dialogue and  anticipation of some amendments search changes from both the cities the other piece that the mayor is working on albeit kind of slowly but it is moving forward  is a look internally with about the airport governance and so he's working with the airport and his task the airport and the city attorneys i us they're looking at their documents one of the things that they're spending a lot of time on is looking back at the last hundred years of all the money that the city of burlington has spent and invested in the airport so they're going back one hundred years and then they'll come up with the timeline that  e suggested is that he's going to be presented with some of this information in june they'll have a first internal review and then he's going to approach the council potentially potentially in the summer we'll get a final report and the expectation is that the three councils or representatives from the free cities in some way would have a conversation about how they're thinking about this the role of the airport and its importance to the city of burlington and if there's any interest in sharing  management so i suggested that they also include in this their overall annual costs because i had a couple probably six months ago we did get a figure that was i can remember it's like two hundred  eighty thousand three hundred eighty thousand dollars or something of a real direct and indirect costs that the city of burlington is free and burst by the airport for effect things they do their police and managing human resources and paychecks and that kind of stuff and also to include the indirect then  that perhaps it would also be wise in our conversation if we as three cities want to really talk about what should go forward is if each of when you ski and s burlington think about the costs they've incurred from the airport as well as the benefits i mean really thinking about if you can develop any data i guess i would look to see management about the positive impact of the airport on businesses in our community if you can quantify that some way we definitely can quantify some of the costs with  the property tax reduction you know two hundred homes raised and those kinds of costs and just to sort of have that lawsuit yeah i mean there's a whole lot of issues that have arise that perhaps we should put together so that when we sit down since there their approach has been let's see what this is cost us so if the ownership or the talking about you know what's the ridership on the planes from each of our communities as a benefit and sort of the regional investment so i put that out to you is potentially something that we might want to noodle around with  so that when we have a conversation it isn't just well the city of burlington has invested over the last hundred years you know thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars but didn't you say the airport is reimbursed didn't you just say that they do now annually i don't know going back a hundred years and i'm not sure why they need to go back one hundred years but they are for the point probably well yeah and it takes time and about our planning yeah it's going to be not easy to quantify no but we might be able to get some kind of idea asking the hotels what percentage you think because now a lot of them you can park there for free so they know that apparently interest by stu arlen to move them to growth saint and i i made it clear i couldn't speak for the council but i heard the mayor not to make that decision soon but rather i mean i think burlington would south burlington would like to see those houses in south burlington if they have to be moved to move here but maybe not  but he agreed with me to sort of hold it off for as long as they can and hopefully until the sound of the new sound mapping so our next meeting isn't a either be mid july or mid august we're told to leave some of this information so we should talk about the burden and what numbers we can generate for four probably would be mid august but anyway but it continues to be a very we met kevin and i met with the school commissioner school board chair and superintendent and we gave them a proposed elements of agreement that we talked about in terms of the land swap  and as we all know they continue to cogitate on this i think they're really concerned with having something specific a plan in place for their future visioning before they give up any land and that's going to take several years so i don't think we because they may have to close chamberlin i think that's kind of been part of their concern so that a lot of moving parts so it's really difficult for them to make what i think the five of us would agree is pretty simple decision to land for quite a few benefits and we articulated the benefits so i don't know if all if you sheep i'll make sure you do but it just kind of lays out it was just sort of this is what we will do for you and it's you know creating the permanent entrance improving and expanding having the closest neighboring building to the school being a library in the city hall in a senior center versus just whomever develops the property  and also the agreement that they raise some real issues around which i think are bona fide issues with the bus loop and making that safer and we made it very clear that we would commit to planning that with them so that the new parking in the new access would accommodate and potentially improve the safety of the school along with t sidewalks and better lighting the access and so from my perspective and i guess they will that they're concerned about and understandably so it seems like they're going to get quite a bit in return for giving up a pretty small land but you know we continue to talk and we'll see what what happens also in the benefits to the schools isn't  eighty day window of their agreeing that they want to take over this space and what that would look like or look like is consolidate all their disparate yes offices into one place which is one thing that they really would like and need but isn't this isn't this time sensitive yes it has we've been pushing in washington right now have coffee with those of us that well i you know i that we mean we've always made it clear that we need if they can't give us a decision soon and i think it's by the beginning of june we would go forward with plan b and that is potentially going up for stories and putting a garage underneath and really changing the design to fit into the smaller space so or you know move it somewhere else and city center so i'm hoping that they will continue to discuss this and come to a newcomer to this and this process but i've read about the whole thing is ridiculous that seven tenths of an acre you can't worry about was ten years down the road you got to do what's good for the city now and this is where i don't understand why realisation and i think when they had their lawyer discussing it with him he failed to mention that the new parking lot all of that work was going to be paid for by the city right so that trying to make a decision by mid to late may and that will fit into our schedule for going on to do so that hope that they will make a decision that seems to me to live in their needs and have a little trust or hope so city manager thanks helen so just a reminder kevin's away for the rest of this week which is why i'm sitting here and you can sue company we have an r f p out for audit services time spent involved in the council as part of that process and they're due this friday so we expect over the next few days we'll get a number of those and there's also an r f p out for market street which is great news been waiting to do this for quite a while those bids are due back by may twenty fifth we've heard great things about all the efforts for green up day around the city of like to thank michael metabo and some of the folks here betty and others who were involved and green up day it was very busy going out and about around the city today picking up the green bags and other debris so i think a very successful effort and certainly appreciate everyone helping out with that effort city center par four pm and it's that time of year again where we're looking at committee appointments so we're reviewing the openings on the different committees we'd like to bring that to you at the may twenty first meeting with your thoughts on formula that i couldn't quite understand but the gist of it is it shows have the tickets sales or the costs here are good going down so that is helpful both both for the consumers as well as i guess moody's review for the airport in plain minutes have been up the last three months and there's a ten percent increase in scheduled seats this summer so that bodes well for the use of the airport the noise compatibility program when the new any m is published it'll be the first  f thirty five any m publish in the united states that's i guess slated for december at sea and they went through the various upgrades  including the phase for a printer and from the city and six percent from the state and then they submitted i guess i should say we have submitted seventy five thousand dollar d by anybody before that according to the software i mean i mean i'm of the well i mean i feel values are probably pretty well understood but yeah i just i'm just curious from the first time you know you shoot those numbers of for the if this is the first you know any of this done been done with those numbers you know i will find out i don't know how they're reviewed or if they're just accepted because that's what these are sources just as they are i don't gene richards also talked a little bit about the curvy road and he says and he had actually suggested to the f a a that maybe they could be sold or use those homes that way but i mean i just think that's a good indication of the airport director trying to make some progress on things that we both share and i think that should be finding potentially or exploring different uses of places or ways to save those kind of just we'll see ok moving on to the consent to my office from jennifer originally and library board of trustees had asked for some sort of formal endorsement of their changing changing the name and it's not much now much more complicated than that i think th part of it was there is a non non legal understanding that separating community library involves the school district in some way so that i think that is that's sixteenth so i would entertain all we have a motion in the second so there's no more discussion all in favor of agreeing to the consent to gender as presented to signify by saying i kept going on to cheers over here you can actually come to the table ok i i'm jennifer kokomo i'm chair of the recreation of parks committee and we're pleased to be receiving the review from twenty seventeen to city council and holly race recreation and parks k d lang rock committee member of recreation park and one school committee member recreation and burke and we have three  so i i would like to start with asking holly and maggie just to do some summary of what is an r p m and decide to do this for the first time organization for data collection and also advocacy so they do a large amount of have to see in washington the operate under three pillars which i know we've touted in front of you before but in case you haven't memorize them yet they are health and wellness conservation and social equity so we operate under those currently and and participate in the annual study of data which used to be called just system now is park metrics so last year was the first time that we had endeavored to enter our our data which is kind of an awesome responsibility and takes a lot of time but you'll see that the the data that we get out of it  in terms of being a marker for other communities of our same size and similar demographics so an r and r p a also you know is really not only the parent company for us if you wan call it that it they do national conferences so it's a time for professionals and for committees to be able to go to national conferences and then they also have schools different schools like director schools they have a lot of different kinds of schools marketing schools they you know just so that professionals can get better at their jobs and  part of the former pro grade jess which is now the reason we did the metrics it's really kind of giving not only data but also kind of what's the driving force where are you today and where can you be in the future so it really is long range planning so this is the beginning attempt for the department to be able to do that with this data collection we've just received the two thousand and eighteen data information which he has not really we haven't had time to review it but it's just a really good way of really knowing where cities are of similar size and being able to do comparisons so maggie says we just got it it came up like four twenty on friday afternoon so the preparation and parks committee will be taken up in the couple next months what they want to do in terms of studying the next data and what we want to do annually but as maggie said really the intent behind this others you know in the total information that we get from residences is another so we see it as one important tool in kind of the arsenal of how to effectively manage the perks for the community that we're privileged to serve ok i want to let you know about the approach that the committee took to this the full report is a very dense i don and we did post that on the recreation and parks website and we could also send that to you it is pretty much it's just a lot of statistics and then a couple of graphs that explain it and some of their methodology so we looked at that and we thought holy cow you know it's hard to break this down into terms that we can understand what but what we did really involved hold committee for a number of months we received the report about this time last year and we spent in subcommittee and committ meetings we will spend a couple of months into just this and looking at it and asking questions about it and then trying to pull this together and really the whole committee was involved in this it was it was really one of those efforts in which everybody wanted to try to understand what this was giving us i think in general what this showed is that it shows where the city of south burlington has been putting their resources in terms of recreation and parks acquiring like it and developing facilities and staffing and it shows that i think it shows that we do a lot with what we have in terms of facilities and staff and resources i think we do are we asked our staff to do a lot and and i think that solved growing to and does very well with participation considering some of our resources and i think that in general the report showed some of the outlying statistics matched up with the assessment that we've had over the years of what it is that we need to do next and that was why we created this first page which shows our highest priorities for the near future and then some of them to six that kind of match up with that the person who i still have indigestion i mean if you haven't seen the report it it looks like this it runs to sixteen pages so you know it's not enormous but in most of that data this that speak to some of the issues that we are normally concerned with and that we could present to counsel anything more than that is going to be impossible for everyone to digest at the same time that and i i found when i was trying to do that that it was was a little optimistic but i persevered and one of that the choices that i made and that the committee subsequently wanted to continue making is this the various pieces of data that are that are submitted by each recreation program let's call it what we have the department of program those complete there were for starters seven hundred sixty two such agencies represented in this report ok seven hundred sixty two of those two hundred twenty four a little less than a third were for communities somewhat comparable to ours in that they had a population density between five hundred and fifteen hundred people per square mile that's the extent to which we can fin tune the comparisons that might be made here and i thought that since i could see for instance that the median middle number of operating expenditures for all the agencies all hundred seventy six to seven hundred sixty two was three and a half million dollars whereas us is a little less ours is a little less it's well under a million it was seven hundred eighty eight thousand for that year  little closer to the ballpark in which we the realm in which we live was the median for the population density between five hundred fifteen hundred prescreen while that was still two point seven million so  but i thought ok that's a little closer to where we are reality let's work with that comparison consistently with that middle group if you will but i'm not sure it's middle it all because that three and a half million dollar figure makes me think we're talking about a lot of big municipalities in the database that that would be my guess and it's been a learning process for us i think that the next time around if we if you ask if you would like us to continue trying to extract information from this and next time around we're going to want to ask can you show can you give us a list that is the national organization give us a list of the communities that we're being compared with and the area of them and the population of them and which state they're in it least so that we i mean if we're being if we're compared if you know one of those two hundred twenty four all but five of them have more population and we do that's a heck of a contrast ok but maybe maybe we're in the middle it would be nice to know so we extract did i made some suggestions and the committee worked on them for a quite a while and to try to extract if you comparisons that seemed to be suggestive of informing us where we are in it none of this is going to make a mandate for us to spend more money or less money or for that matter on anything but it's interesting to know where we stand in comparison with quote comparable communities the question is how comparable are they the national recreation and parks association performance review so i i don't want to try to  spring before she was even appointed she was a regular member of participation in this i would like to look at just the outliers that we  found that we have on the screen the square footage of operating buildings at six hundred six thousand five hundred fifty feet is well below at least seventy five percent of respondents and i refer to the page where it shows this the acres of parkland for one thousand population at twenty point seven is higher than more than seventy five percent of respondents but park operating expenditures per acre are part and at four ninety one south burlington is among the lowest of all responses seventy five percent of respondents spend more a lot more and while a lot more capital budget for the next five years at two million two hundred  thirty one thousand which includes the c i p projections for new facilities south burlington would still be lower than more than fifty percent of respondents and expenditures  capita at forty two dollars and thirty four cents burlington is lower than almost seventy five percent of respondents in the number of full time employees at five south burlington is lower than more than seventy five percent of respondents and i i think this reflects the history of south burlington which is that we have really put our resources into protecting our open space acquiring open space and protecting open space and we have not so far been putting our resources our tax money into building facilities in creating program space indoor recreation facilities davis smiling he's he's on our foundation committee and we are we are hoping to get that off the ground before too long so that we can raise money and that also our staffing is is lower than other communities and the things that as glen was saying the things that we don't know is  in terms of density it are we comparing apples and oranges when we're talking about regions when we're talking about large cities small cities in the midwest a lot of these kinds of things are done county wide and so we don't have that so it's a rough it's a rough approximation and yet these numbers you know when you're talking about below fifty percent seventy five percent and so on we those were you know like flashing lights to us and and we thought that as an advisory committee to city council that it would be important to share this with you want to make just one note we talk about rough numbers so i think there's a couple ways that we can even improve how we might respond in terms of putting information and so we have kind of a unique situation with the maintenance of the parks with public works so you'll see that public works isn't that counted in that five full time employee so if this is something that we want to take on as a committee in the future you know we would need some in terms of the hours or full time equivalent of public works to really narrow down and get that even more accurate so that just wasn't accounted for here i just want to know could i'd like t one one word about the comparisons that you see right there which is that in a sense what we're looking at validates the action that the city council in the city took recently with that the action to take one point three million dollars against incoming penny for parks and address the means it's very glaring that we have a lot of parkland per person then then a lot of other comparable communities not spending very much to maintain or improve it well we're working on that and that's good so we've been this is hindsight just actually just before we allocated that one point three million to that purpose so or me with that one piece of cheese factory road where we can't even get to it i mean there's no public access so it there it's it i can't remember how many acres it is but is  yes yeah how how is that sort of separated from other parcels in the report or is it all lumped together so when you put your number in  for parkland again i guess you know i think of a man of my kids live in salt lake city so i was just there they have a ton of parkland and it is fabulous but they don't have that in the city anyway the kind of part well a couple up in the mountains so that is enough and i mean there's trails and stuff but but most of it is most of their park land is really improved and used largely by the citizens versus what we have which has a lot of it is little trails that came with the property in a way and acre and we have more than others so it's indicative of the property we have so again i think it's the right it's the right thing it doesn't necessarily say we should be spending more per acre but if we were to have more developed  parkland then we would obviously need to well maybe what might be helpful maybe just to me but to sort of understand out of the acres of parkland how many acres does the city  that is left passive or we haven't done anything with it yet and how many actually our recreational use i think of underwood we've got plans for that and what may be able to identify so what is a reasonable number of dollars to pay to spend per acre because you don't want to have every single acre we own a ball field in a bathroom facility and that goes for capital never heard me that that would be a perk capital number that you'd be interested to know right as opposed to a per acre of land that you know i was thinking of if let's say we own i don't know how many acres the city owns as they will know me you probably know they have it here for forty yeah or accessible right excess a bill so that there's a use you can get to it you might park be able to park there and i don't know there's always i think we would want to really talk about that question and kind of break it apart more because i think one of the real deficiencies is the open space that we have and in some respects that's more expensive to care for than the manicured fields that you might be referencing so just because currently there may be an informal trail system  that doesn't mean that we should be can't take care of that informal trail system so i think right now we're very much in the catch up mode for especially those three significant nature area parcels so i think it that would be an interesting study to kind of take a look at kind of those three tiers so the manicured kind of ball fields kind of active recreation the more passive recreation and then what i call kind of those outlets that in my view is accessible but mostly they're sort of overrun but that's a park the scott property isn't doesn't count as a park at this capita is interesting and it kind of ties back into what i was saying at a previous meeting where i would like the council to have a discussion about how we allocate our public resources i think that it's interesting to see i mean i know that we have that pie chart every everybody here but i think it's an interesting discussion to have you know i think that historically speaking the builders of the city have moved  certain directions and not another directions right and that might be intentional might be unintentional and these are these are interesting discussions to him i think councillor chittenden some said remarks that there isn't anything really surprising about the numbers that we extracted there do you have other observations as a council or questions that you would like us to address if not right now then as we look at a new wave of data that comes our way that we might be able to make recreational space as the human all goes through transitions i'm wondering if you're not endorsing this notion but how your committee has explored or considered the idea of possible temporary recreation space in any freed up locales or locations inside of the university mall to further that desperately needed is indoor program space for for spring late fall we're during spring when you have absolutely no place at all to put it right right so that's what we're working towards would just highlight the importance of permanent space and innovative space so this space is only usable for so many things and is a deterrent from a lot of adult education and physical education and fitness classes or meditative classes that we might want to run so we do we can with the space that we have but permanent innovative space would be we certainly have more ideas for programming than we have space available to hold programs in another one of those statistics i think that is is telling is that people do we have pretty good participation in our programs even though we don't have permanent facilities that we call our own and i think the i think the interest is there in the community to do programming for everyone in the community really pretty much you know preschool even below that up through you know our older adults were as you know we're looking at our schools which they do a lot a lot for families but you know space is really limited and they're doing a lot of out of you know out of school time so i just think it's important to note that you know we're here for the whole community  you could come in so i went on vacation in florida for a week service to the area and so i had the opportunity good of several parks and i noticed in downtown venice they had an interactive fountain park for kids right filled with screaming kids just having the time of the lives with buckets and pails and things that spin and the half ounce would go off and they'd stop and come back right and parents sitting at park benches or on the outside with some huge canvassed style low wings that you know were provided you know shade for the you know for people at you know very small part but very interactive and and just the kids were gleeful over it also visited maxime very park in venice as well which is it's got to be at least twenty acres a it was a reclaimed wastewater treatment plant that has a probably a third of a mile so sidewalk all way around it with a vantage points overlooking the venice beach but no access as a difference with a couple of  some showers and bathrooms and water fountains beautiful spot it's a first of all venice is a beautiful spot right but also beautiful park but one of these you know opportunities that was seen and and claimed by the citizens of that area to something had been kind of dirty to something really beautiful and there's you know all these wonderful eagerness and herons around the edge of the pond just eating fish and there's a few gators in there too right but there's a nice fence to protect you from there there's also a dog park there and it's divided into a small dog park and a large dog park and there's even a send a you know parallel fencing system that takes you all the way down to the beach and there is a dog beach area too was sighted so and there was oscar shares state park which is a fully natural state just sponsors some naturalist type activities there for kids got their three school bus full of kids you know who were finishing up having lunch there and gone for a walk so and that has a twelve mile real the trail path that goes from venice all the way back up to sarasota that's heavily used so there are all these opportunities and then you go to other communities do you see what they've done highlight i just came from new york city right so i saw the highland park as i went by and i still have a chance to go up on it but i think there's like accessible and for what it's what the function is what the purpose so there's also the question i mean i hear that and again we have to think about our priorities in that from a conversation i still would like us to have this people say to that perhaps the money should be used for purchasing land while the land is still purchasable right and there's something to be said for that that although we might not have all of these wonderful amenities that you're citing now for us maybe two generations down the road there will be will be able to shift and that that's something to think about too right i don't think we should forget about pocket parks either right i mean you have a right in your neighborhood  you know it's like a woods or something i don't know what you use it for but it's lucky i guess walking but it could turn into a park a park with swings and i don't know it's a destination for people there was a dirt bike  circuit there for awhile depends on who uses it but i mean they have fun and we've required developers as they go forward to put parks i mean and play areas which aren't officially city parks but i think that's part of the park fabric of our community and we should kind of count that i think we have to give it some credit  ecause it is used by people maybe not in tire community knows about it i mean everyone knows about dumont park now i don't think they used to go so that's sort of been another piece in my mind about how to prioritize and end user tax dollars to improve or i mean there are many competing needs for those is this exercise that we've been through and that we're bringing some fruits of to you do you find that to be helpful w really helpful and i think prioritizing them and you've set some priorities that i think reflect a lot of the sentiments of the council and that's great and then it's you know the plan to act on just what is what we need first or what can we achieve  and what we want to what we want to do but it does come down to our priority has to be indoor usable churns for for the off season quite well we have the mechanisms to buy outdoor space ok let me know when you need a break ok so this is the report of the dog park sighting task force to some of the same faces will come forward again my name is maggie lugar speculation of parks and i've had the really honor and privilege of working with the dog park task force this has been a really a labor of love by several people here that are really community members not professionals in the field of dog parks or you know involved in some of the more professional areas related to dog behavior specialists etc but there's been a lot of very thoughtful a lot of thought for research that's been done by this group  this committee has actually been working for about two and a half months on putting some things together and each member they really the whole group wanted to be up here so that you could see and hear from a lot of the different members because they each have taken a section of what you will hear this evening linda chase on area and i think katie is this your first time being on several folks it's the first time being on any type of committee within south burlington then we have and that actually barbara was recommended by the council to be on this committee and barbara was out of town for quite a bit of this but really made incredible effort by phone for most of the meetings that we've had so far then we have micah who lives in corrie rich in micah has been very actively involved in the comm we have elizabeth walker bet she listen corey rich and also katherine young and all of those folks i just mentioned this is their first time being on any type of committee and really just doing a lot of excellent research and very thoughtful i can't stress enough the thoughtfulness of this group especially it being a first time these folks getting together that have done i think a really good job so from there i'm trying that over to you guys i want a gold star so like maggie said we've been meeting for nearly three months now and we've examined literature from other communities as well as organizations like the american kennel club we've looked at scoring guides developed by other cities both locally and nationally and we brainstormed as a group that led to us and with the help of paul  coming up with an initial site selection matrix we took that matrix we highlighted selected south burlington sites as well as existing sites like star farm and our point there was to really evaluate the matrix and to start so we just wanted to see how did this matrix look at you know existing sites in other communities as well and we're considering it a living document and we're sure that the people are going to have input that will lead to further revisions so the matrix is if you can go to the next one make you think you know the matrix you know our purpose really is site selection so there are lots of considerations to be made for any dog park but there are site selection pieces that we wanted to look at so we looked at size we looked at access location other amenities ownership and more and we created this matrix to evaluate potential sites so that was the crux of our work  location when we consider things like parking surrounding uses natural resources access enhancements we looked at things like what we considered amenities so drinking water shade lighting access to those things we looked at ownership because obviously that's been a challenge in the past and then we thought about other areas as well that might be specific to certain sites criteria are adopted then we are suggesting a process or the next iteration of the process in terms of convening at least one community form to talk about to present the criteria so that people know how we are  and also for members of the community to make suggestions about places that we should look at in the community and then come back with some recommendations for possible sites obviously we are not expecting that we're going to come back and we're going to recommend five sites and you're going to drop them all right on the spot but at least there would be a series of recommendations that the council could consider and have some sort of a plan for implementation of one or more of those sites along the way we also think that there are there is a need for operational policies things like hours of operation things about procedures for maintenance things about are we going to have a locked gate are you going to buy the annual pass are you going to how are those kinds of things going to work how might be interface with animal control how might it interface with the police department all of those kinds of things need to be considered and we're all sort of points of discussion  as the committee looked at the research from other communities probably besides the site selection criteria the other thing that we really think is needed is an ongoing committee that would have geographic representation from across south burlington and also would have at least one expert might be a vet might be a canine behavior specialist but somebody who would bring a little more professional perspective to the discussion in might raise something that we haven't thought about even though folks in this community have done a huge amount of research you never know what might be there and there would be a conversation about how would the noise of airplanes affect a dog you know why does that do in terms of behavior we've had that conversation the airport had a conversation in closing the previous dog park but it's the best example i could think of that sort of neutral and not going to anybody's going to think that it's really what we're thinking about so those are our recommendations from the initial work of the task force and that hopefully you would look at those and move forward with them like i need you  we ended up doing a neighborhood forum that we did on friday friday evening and i'm going to say eight to ten neighbors came and they actually had some really interesting and very good points on the reasons why the dog park it was it would not be a really great place for the dog park to be and so what has happened is the proposal adjacent neighbors and really listening to the neighborhood and this this particular site would not be a good site for a dog park for a variety of reasons and i think  actually over there are going over there a couple of times and there is some significant traffic or people you know and i'm not going to say lift or but folks that just kind of park over there instead of going over to the cellphone parking lot that are hanging around and i was pretty surprised at that and you know we certainly did hear their concerns  and it wasn't just about concerns but they also offered some possible our tar term a toast however at the alternative certainly that was recommended it was pretty close to where the old dog park once where some of the homes  on the dog park just because of i think neighborhood concerns are not really wanting to get into another issue with with that neighborhood it's itself really to live so i don't it's not  you know one thing that i before over to the skies because i think the conceptual design tools will be really good to just take a look at it because it really is a good conceptual  design in all the research that has been done and it's not just been done in this community but across the country it was really a pleasure working with the airport they were very positive  really listening to you know the conceptual design work that was done by you know the three of us that were you know at several meetings and i cannot speak highly enough of all the staff in their consideration so so you're saying actually look at the design that it was developed for that dog park proposal  as including the attributes that the committee thought were really positive for a dog park anywhere that is saying that absolutely correctly in terms of size and thin i i understand the need for our canines to but with regard to location i think that close proximity to residences is not recommended well i would really like to see that parks that are currently use five people and dogs and that i know a lot of people have an emotional attachment to it but i think that we have to keep in mind that people will use those parks regardless of whether or not there's a dog park there and the number of times you know that i've been to red rocks and that people use red rocks like  the dog park and so i think that it really is a good plan manning for us to take a piece of land that this community cares deeply about and be good stewards and be realists and pragmatic and create a space for people who go there with their dogs but say this is how you can use illegally and make it appropriate with all of the special considerations that this committee has has gone into in the matrix and really make sure that the land that should be preserved should not you know i have droppings wherever i am and have people off trail that we're really trying to make sure that those trails can be preserved that i think it would it would really serve that interest by having a dog park and i think that the same is true for real or by having something at veterans memorial that these are not human residents but are human residents happen to live with dogs and so think about how we can i think there is a really good list i think it's really thoughtful and yes well i'm willing to make that i think it's like yeah we just make a motion to adopt what time that screen understanding that some of that identifies the work of the committee and i think that would be important to include so it's really clear that we want to develop recommendations for cites and guidelines for operational policies and procedures would force for the next twenty years i mean i think for me for a year or two to really develop that stuff and test it and try it out and have it is part of how we do business and self burlington and identify have the criteria in the matrix and process would be helpful so i guess i wouldn't imagine it to be standing committee but rather public private type of because most there are some some supports that i'm going and most well i would say almost every i would think are maybe see operational policies that if you really consider outlining kind of the responsibilities of the community you know who really is in charge of the dark you know  we can create a dog park that you can guarantee meets everyone's safety standards if the owners of the dogs or the parents of the children kind of just let it happen  now think it's the police or the city i think it's the community the user community if you will that assumes that responsibility and i think if you lay it out as part of the operational polic you posted and you really can maybe meet with friends of the dog park and you say ok so we need to train people or we need to inform them and really get them  that's not the right spot to exercise that type of dog rescuer alone unless you're alone right and when you see another dog arrive you say i'll be out in just two minutes let me get control yeah one of multiple times are and it's a city for future planning for the city really need a lot more dog parks not superdome and i think it just is a part of our conservation plan to be quite frank well certainly in some places where we have conserved land that's it for  really important aspect and then there are other places i think where the park or not people can walk anywhere on the grass there aren't you know plants and flowers that are  endangered and that is a different setting but it could also have a dog park but just with different addresses different meet it doesn't have the two means which i think is good so a subcommittee or a task force to carry out this or should we adopt the site selection criteria and then direct so you're in support of this recommendation yes ok thank you for any other comments ok thank you so we have a motion on the table that been moved in seconded any further discussion and all in favor signify by saying i i so that's good now you have some other recommendations to write or not c dog park where you can see them the proximity to j c park family friendly neighborhood dog park we applied a lot of what we learned and certainly our matrix to the park and the amenities water trees shade wheelchair a sex symbol was definitely one and that one is j c park you can come in i know you can get in there and in walking distance for most residents in a particular neighborhood this is definitely a more neighborhood one city owned didn't already maintain location easy to find walkable within the neighborhood and j c park is an off leash park which is an interesting piece with a playground on the site which is great but the off lease paid pieces was a surprise to all certainly to reasons we just passed the other recommendations that really sets in place the development of the policies and procedures and that kind of thing or are you suggesting that we just wait to open j c dog park until the new committee works out some of the how we're going to educate and train come in lock the park so people can't access during the night for instance we could limit the dogs in the park and the dogs per person we could update the rules educate people more and make it a neighborhood dog believe basically basically we did some preliminary work with the criteria but we were really careful to use that only in evaluating the scoring guidelines and not to go back and review other than with j c not to go back we need to go back and look at that again as the community moves forward looking at possible sites then they will begin to apply the criteria they're on j c did score in a pretty similar fashion matrix worked and then went back and reshaped it and then said we're not going to go evaluate all of those places because we don't know the council's going to adopt it we don't know if there's going to be in that there committee that's going to be doing this work and so we didn't go with the scoring guidelines so we would go back where they did the new committee we'll go back and begin to look at existing spots as well as if i mean there needs to be a community forum so people come and say have you looked at whatever and then we can and also so they can feedback just the way the earlier speaker did in terms of maybe there is something that we missed i think that's an appropriate workplace but you're comfortable now there's been i mean this is a question is and i don't mean to be a leading question are you comfortable with the neighborhoods  interest in having the the j c park be opened again i mean you haven't had a quote forum with them or have you but they know you've been talking about them and people written to you or come in said this is great or don't go there personally i have i mean i've only been back a week on t v but personally i've talked to a lot of people in my neighborhood i have received no negative comment at all i would like us to the same procedure for all of the sites carefully about setting precedent going forward i really really think that this committee has done a lot of important work work that needed to be done and i think that residents should be should be granted the same respectful process so what are you saying that before we open c park again we have a forum a public forum now that i would go to the recreation and parks committee that would get that the subcommittee and once that took the matrix and applied it to j c park and felt that it had at least it met the minimum we've had a petition i mean granted the tony seventy people from the voter checklist but it i think there must be from that neighborhood is there a town or so they are the intended and we've had other people but very very few that have come forward with an don't do this i'm just i guess i'm missing what additional steps on this particular park because i think we need to do that we haven't already done m m i thought i was getting us but maybe i'm not so you've got your criteria and like j c park is kind of a template for what will come after and your recommendation is to reopen g c park according to what you invision the standard for parks throughout the city and in that j c park would be one of those parks for a dog site period that you're looking for for the standard that might for community forums public forum so i really think that was missing before we threw up the fence and now that we have the fence there with it well let's make use of it and i it's just not the same process and i find it's important for the city to proceed in a way that is fair and equitable to all of our residents and i find that the process if we were to go forward and treat j c separately does that don't exist previously i don't know this is necessarily a permanent i think that that that we believe that it should be opened it was not there was not unanimous but it was the majority that it would be that we would recommend that the park be opened but that as we move forward as a task group there would be conversations about should we keep a she should we keep others but that it least in the interim the clear majority sentiment at least as we all heard it in the community was that it should be open so how do we enforce them if i don't know where this council sits but i think in addition to which to me is the primary which is the fair and equity fairness and equities factor is in force and if we were to limit the number of dogs how do we do that if we were to have the lock how do we do that if there was an incident how do we do that we know that there have been incidents there there was a track record and not only between between tom just we could go back and spend the whole night talking about this but i just want to highlight one of the things that i think you know your slide there that currently dave right now just to give some offered some historical background at j c park dogs can roam around us anywhere except for within this fenced in yard we spend seventeen thousand dollars on so that my position has been in the meeting since i'm fine with let's move it conversations about moving it but intel we set a new location and identify that location let's leave it open fencing fencing can be used and also an important factor for me is that prior to the dive park there were absolutely no complaints between dogs and dogs or between dogs and people or between people and people and that's what has come out of the chase the dog so i mean i'm a neophyte on this but i understand what you're saying and i share some of the same concerns especially how you're going to enforce those things here what this gentleman said and what recognizing the hard work of the group did it can be a template for what's going to become standard policy throughout the city and i think especially in deference to the hard work that you folks did and in the and and and and and the fact that we're not going to say this perspective makes sense to reopen the j c park in the interim but with the understanding that may not be a permanent situation but as the task force does its work that's where we are at the moment i think i would not recommend so that's that's that's not good for the park itself you could take the gates off but i think that people find ways to just walk it in and reclaim it as a dog so if you're going to do anything i would say remove one side to fencing and all the fencing but just roll it up and put it in put it in city storage until something happens later on we figure we're going to do the a favor she said before that if we were going to try something new as a dog park that we do wit patrol for too many dogs have somebody responsible for walking on walk in the park in the evening in the morning i don't know how you do that but think that if before you consider doing something like that you really consider having the place with a park that self regulates because it's in a location that lends itself to that the first place so if i'm open to moving and i think we need more not parks i would be against just ripping other got really up and putting  with the park it would have been very nice if some of this stuff like this had been acted prior to the opening and prior to the closing we wouldn't be here now i think the term realistic has come up a lot in regards to the park and when we think about the needs for our community dog parks are not  do not serve purely a recreational purpose for their jobs yes but in order to enable our citizens to own dogs they need to have a place to be able to exercise and in order to do that because we don't want them roaming the streets because we have other concerns we do need fenced safe areas that are accessible to the citizens of individual neighborhoods it's fine to say that we're going to spend the day at ledger of red rocks or wherever we're going for our dogs  outing but the reality is people needs to walk their pets multiple times a day and they need to be able to do that within a reasonable timeframe they kept be taking you know two hours to go halfway across the city and exercise we need dog parks that are localized and allow people to make part of their what walk a trip to the dog park let the dog do the running that it needs to do and then get home and move on with their with their business the issue of you know all the complaints and problems and chasey i think are truly inflated i think there were very few problems with it one of the problems i think that or one of the causes of the problems at j c part was our lack of dog parks when we are drawing people from other towns and all the way across south burlington the number of dogs we have in south burlington and we have two small dog parks i mean  it's it's really cool to think that that could meet the need in the meantime what we had to buy a year or more with no dog park because of the closing of the airport haste put one up in j c park that functioned well and yet you know was serving far too many people and now we've gone you know another nine months or so without it in the meantime you know everyone is scrapping in trying to figure out how to make things work with their schedule and their pets the fact that jaycee park is an off leash part is nice but it's just impractical for many people not all dogs are behaves such that they're able to be out and about running loose they're not under voice command control so the dog park at j c had very few complaints no i'm not i don't believe it was an official complaint ever filed  so to use that as a reason for not reopening the park at least was exploring other options and i guess if other parks around the city were opened then it's much more likely that of people at the park would wouldn't be such an issue in the meantime there certainly are ways to figure out how to make some of these adjustments if we think that that's what it of space elsewhere and it made this park unworkable because of the number of dogs that were there at times this template should not be a small neighborhood park ok to run their dogs it was an issue so are we ready for the hel if you don't try to be sleeping on a saturday or sunday morning in your backyard and d m you broke some great points you know how to the park you stay for an hour your dog plays pirate so is home somebody else's dog comes to the park place barks goes on my date from seven am until eight pm his dogs barking you're there for an hour so just please be careful of that and thank you again really nice and respectful of someone else's neighborhood i would hope that when you summer my my shirt eight weeks in my backyard while you were guards get to come because you don't have them in your space you can't get people to agree to have them in your space so you want to bring them to jesus park i have two houses on shepherd lane that don't get along and because we don't get along on our voices the only way of saying it's not working for us and we're the closest backyard to the dive park so i would hope that our choices   but right now i it's important to me to have j c park reopened my deck looks out aren't to shepherd lane i  hear intermittent dog barking what i hear mostly is port's teams into the night i happen to like the sounds of kids playing in and  the good noise that comes from that but my main point is to talk about accessibility and that was brought up a little bit earlier and it's something that is really important to me  as far as jacey park goes and reopening it with some immediacy of possible i have multiple sclerosis i've had it for twenty three years and it's progressive and that means that little by little things get taken away from me and become inaccessible in my life and so it has cost me a career i'm a speech and language pathologist it has cost me the right to drive i can't ski anymore i can't snowshoe and i can't walk and so i was delighted that j c park was going to open because i could take my scooter with my dog independently down the sidewalk to j c park and spend some time with my dog and and also with my neighbors i i just i live in a wonderful neighborhood and some are woods and i just love meeting all my neighbors around and so there's a social outlet to this to jaycee park as well that i really appreciate so it was just so fortunate to have someplace accessible that i could get to independently and that doesn't happen for me anymore and people don't understand and take for granted because they don't have this issue going on it's and it's progressive and it becomes every day there's some other little thing that gets taken away but i had this little thing and it was pretty important to me and then suddenly the park closed and so i was kind of indignant that one more thing was taken away  seemingly because of one person's complaint but i don't i don't know for sure about that and without a lot of substantiation and while south burlington is growing and building i've made phone calls and found out that accessibility is indeed a consideration for the new  area along market street for the new park for the new bicycle program there are people who are thinking about that and then then we had j c park and then it's it's just gone  i would just ask you to do the right thing and i'm speaking for a lot of people that you don't see there are a lot of us out  require a blind justice i really i hear your appeal i got a dog i put a fence in my backyard some my dog could run three and i know that that's not an expense that everyone can afford but i think that dog ownership does require some responsibility and some planning and when we are dealing with the municipal structure and we're dealing with needs and rights i really think that a city wide policy is an order and i really i hear your appeal i'm sympathetic to it but i think there are many people in many neighborhoods who hear your appeal are sympathetic to it i think there are people in this room who  and best appeal and are sympathetic to it and that is why i really am appealing to this board to perceive thoughtfully and carefully i cannot vote in favor of reopening this park based on  what i have experience since last september i am a dog owner i know what responsibilities come with being a dog owner i i also believe that as a council we need to we need to deal with people with fairness and equity and i do not see that in doing a specific action here tonight ok can we can we move forward yes i would like to see determine which way we're going so rather than have any other comments because we've really had a hunger for a long night of this and this was our third night of this for people whose code who were who feel like they've had something report from them that was given to them and it was something that they really cherished i'm sorry for that but there are other factors at play here other people's needs and those needs money to actually be rea is not to have the parks and recreation committee become the source community but they would create one that is of people from all over the community an expert and they would address all of those issues and come back to i guess the council with the plan now it sounds like the parks and rec committee would like to intervene one other so i think that that's certainly a consideration i also think it's a consideration like ranking sexpert that we would certainly find from the community really want her expertise in some guidelines and rules i think i think preexisting committee can make progress on this as you bring on a more a more a more of a broader community there's no reason we can't do some of the essential work and so i'm i think our intention was to have the parks and rec committee was your idea to create the committee to work on these things and somebody could come back with these are the sites of the dog parks could go and that's when we'll meet the fencing and in the interim why not just from the park to let people because they can already run with the dogs off leash outside of the space you know they could just already put supportive of you said put it in some cases but that's just me i think what we have on the table a lot of discussion so i'm a little unclear sue what you actually have written down but i think work of the subcommittee coming back to the council with a recommendation when where they are so can we do that without it so can we do the make the subcommittee come back to the council without going moving on to i was really out of thirteen so moving on to item fourteen council discussion can you please take your conversation out in the hall thank you feel you've just given us a thousand dollars assessment plus or minus three hundred dollars over ten years i guarantee if we can if we connect and make more more if we connect all of our fifteen consider impossibly approve a resolution that would still wish an economic development committee under the council this is something we all talked about we met with the s b b a and meghan offered to pull something together and she did share thank you for doing so and all of us presented a much as well i'll just say that a lot of the language is based on our comprehensive plan and it hopefully will get to the issues that the members of this b b a that were present at that meeting last month raised with regard to being able to work with other boards but also in our comprehensive plan going forward  strategic economic development plans for the two things it's great thank you i appreciate it so we have a motion and a second second any further discussion all in favor signify by saying i so on friday you receive in a separate e mail the narratives firm march which again were pretty thorough and i'd be happy to take back any questions or comments you have for any of the department heads but other than that basically tell you we're three quarters of the way through the budget in this biscoe year revenues in the general fund currently at seventy three percent and expenses at seventy  a prize funds and sewer revenues sixty two percent expenses sixty one and in stormwater the revenues are at eighty three percent and as you know the expenses are over there at one hundred twenty one percent because of the carry over of projects from doing better better yeah i don't think we're ever going to get to where we hoped we would be there but fire inspections are tracking while right ok which was a big issue not the other nice permit we withhold pizza putt to lay complete their application fully and move farnum mail enlarger guns those indoor golf barnyard dave's cosmic subs no taxes have been paid or up to date so that they're a reasonable business and you want you know if if the if the police said oh my god you know every other saturday oh yeah we've got a brawl corn on the enough and then and then our process is we get the police and the fire in the tax department to review this and say they're up to date and they have training and all that kind of stuff yeah why we're on this topic and you have this  why do we commune as a separate board and what are we losing by not having a separate and distinct liquor board from the council if there was a committee of individuals that knew liquor laws and the license to other communities in vermont do that and are we not doing something that board would otherwise next steps are for when you ski and self burlington to respond back but after our legal counsel but i think it would suit the mark to have the legal counsel look at it i think it would be smart for all of us to read it you know really carefully and say i sort of like the way it's organized because it says what each community is going to do but it really doesn't do what we want and that is to have the status quo exactly so i think we need to put our you know i guess maybe we need to direct andrew to say well we really wanted to say  the library yeah i want to know what the timeline was i had an interesting conversation with community member who's done some fund raising so i just wonder what the timeline was for that moving forward are we the timeline in the library for what they're fundraising bond vote have we gotten any have we had any communication with the subcommittee working on fundraising with j patrick margaret and ok i think it would be they haven't i mean i sort of asked that and i haven't gotten any concrete anything except that they're working on it i think at this point you know not to harp on the school board but until we get a decision from them we either have a good sense of they say yes of what the cost of the building will be and then that helps drive what the library needs to raise kind of stuff through and what we need to ask the public well what i would recommend that we think about is seeing if there are any leftover funds in our operating budget and putting that into an escrow account for the library community center city i think  oh to add to our the tiff yes what do we call that reserve the jeffries or yes pacifically for the library and city hall community center and with community member  who would prefer that i not say the name in public really thinking about this you know in terms of an anchor for the city center and for the business is there and really having fun raising look at potential businesses who would be willing to contribute as well and i think that's owed to the whole building yes so fund raising not just for the library but potentially being a senior center but specifically as an school board has three meetings in may and the last one is the eighteenth so potentially we will know what their decision is by name our next me and then we'll know whether we need to continue the option of or and then i think we'll also have a better idea of what the numbers look like because that you know as i for her i have heard from th development committee for the library that they have a set amount that they think they can raise and it's not just thirty percent of of the cost of the library so that's a question that comes back to the council and we put the bond issue forward in the sales we need to make for the community that that it's not just library funds and well let's get the final numbers because there's a whole lot of perspectives that we're going to have to discuss in terms of you know if we go high and deep what that costs and is that even doable well that's why do we just go with the library and senior center and stay right here that's another good i mean that is an option i don't see if the school board says no to go smaller and taller i don't see as a  there's a there's a a muffin grinder at the jail right you know it's tough there's a there's a machine there to grind the sewage that comes out of the not to to remove anything that could you could