this hearing is called to order on tuesday the obama administration released a new report global climate change impacts in the united states it is the most comprehensive look at the current and potential impacts of global warming on the states to date the results of sobering temperatures are increasing sea level is rising more extreme downpours are occurring the report makes clear that global warming is happening and that and that the impacts are now  being felt in every region of america and across society today in the first of a series of hearings on that and that report we are examining the impacts of global warming on agriculture and forestry all american should be concerned with the impact on these critical sectors we all must eat we all use products from forests every day the findings of the report that rising temperatures precipitation changes and increasing weeds disease and pass will impact the productivity of farms and bars should make all of us apprehensive land managers rely on the cumulated knowledge about their land weather and crops but climate change is rewriting the farmers almanac the past is no longer law and farmers must make decisions in the face of growing uncertainty the serious consequences for agriculture and forestry provide yet another reason to take action now to curb global warming pollution the report indicates that the growing season now starts two weeks earlier impacting farming and crops in rural america heavy downpours in the last fifty years increased sixty seven percent in the northeast and thirty one percent in the midwest and surprisingly this  time has been marked by record flooding in those regions yet in the rapidly growing southwest they face a different climate challenge as water supplies are becoming increasingly scarce indeed farmers and barristers are already suffering the consequences of climate change but unlike other impacted such fears they can also contribute to the solutions according to the environmental protection agency s far since oil sequestered over a billion metric tons of carbon dioxide in two thousand and seven almost fifteen percent of the nation's greenhouse gas emissions land management practices designed to increase this carbon sink can pull even more carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere biomass can be used to generate renewable electricity reducing global warming pollution from the burning of fossil fuels biomass can also produce renewable liquid fuels allowing american consumers desperate for energy independence the ability to power their cars with cellulosic fuels from middle america rather than oil from the middle east wind turbines us prodding on farms and ranches generating clean electricity while continuing the lands traditional use for food production these practices are already growing clean energy jobs and generating new revenue in our rural communities with the right energy and climate policies american farmers and farces will play a crucial role in curbing the dangerous build up of global warming pollution while creating new sources of income money can grow on trees after all the witnesses before us will help the select committee understand the challenges and opportunities globally global warming presents to us agriculture and forestry i look forward to that testimony let me now turn and recognize the ranking member many of the gentleman from the house democratic leadership spent the last two months rushing to pass a carbon emissions reduction scheme that i call cap and tax i call a cap and tax because legislation is a hidden energy tax that will increase the price of nearly every staple in american life including electricity goods and services and gasoline today's hearing will allow us to explore how this flawed policy will hurt american farmers cap and tax will reduce the security of america's food supply if the government mandates a cap on fossil fuel emissions many attilla these will switch from cold a natural gas to generate electricity because natural gas produces fewer c o two emissions as demand for natural gas rises the price will rise as well that natural gas is used soley for electricity as ford west president of the fertilizer institute says in his written testimony there is no substitute for natural gas in nitrogen production s domestic nitrogen fertilizer industry supplied about eighty five percent of america's nitrogen in the one nine hundred ninety s but the high cost of natural gas has moved much of this production and its jobs overseas today just fifty five percent of this vital farming resource is made in the united states much of the imported nitrogen is made in places that offer cheap natural gas like the middle east china russia and venezuela these countries have no restrictive climate policy is like and tax in their energy efficiency is generally lower than that in the united states mr west cites a study by the don't own advisory services that shows that the cap and tax scheme would add six to twelve billion dollars in additional costs for farmers by two thousand and twenty a recent study by the heritage foundation on the democrats cap and tax proposal also shows the devastating effect this scheme will have on agriculture farmers will be forced to pay more and those costs will be reflected in the price of nearly every agricultural product the heritage study shows that increases in costs are expected to reduce farmers incomes by eight billion dollars in two thousand and twelve and by more than fifty billion dollars in two thousand and thirty five the average net income loss between two thousand and ten and two thousand and thirty five is projected to be twenty three billion dollars with numbers like these it isn't surprising that thirty seven food and agriculture groups have opposed the cap and tax legislation in addition to expanding taxes cap and tax will expand the government especially the environmental protection agency because enforcement is a true cost of a true carbon cap a debilitating us economy the legislative proposal currently before the house of representatives allows covered entities to make substantial portions of their reduction outside the cap through what are called offsets the bill allows two billion tons of offsets per year the billion of which must come from domestic sources the value of these billion offsets will easily reach into the tens of billions because the cap is so broad agriculture and forestry are the only areas where offsets can be applied the results will be tens of billions of tax dollars flowing into the farm industry as financial and auto industries of learned federal money does not come without strings under the current bill the will be in charge of pulling the strings in the e p a has no useful experience regulating agriculture we've already got a whiff of what would happen if the tries to regulate greenhouse gases american farm bureau federation have said that if the e p a were to apply the clean air act to greenhouse gases nearly every dairy cattle and swine farm would fall under the regulations resulting in literally a cow flatulence tax the e p a has sworn this isn't their plan but to exclude these farms from the regulations the e p a would have to take steps to exempt them steps that could be challenged in court this is the kind of absurd regulation these exact leave the type of policy we could see if the e p a becomes too involved in regulating greenhouse gases and agricultural production republicans believe that any climate change legislation must meet for simple principles that must protect jobs in the economy produce tangible improvements to the environment advance technological progress and feature international participation including that of china and india if we keep these princip in mind we can address climate without threatening american farmers or our economic health and i thank the chair i thank the gentleman very much the chair recognizes the gentleman from oregon mr blumenthal thank you mr chairman and i do appreciate your having the hearing at this time i'm a little frustrated because i have two other hearings that are going on i did want to be here at least for the beginning and want to share some of my  support for what you're doing because there's nobody that has a greater stake in our getting our policies right with greenhouse gases more than agriculture they are have much at risk we're seeing it in the northwest with declining snowpack changing the temperature patterns if we don't get this right agriculture and forestry in the area that i represent will be seriously at risk second we have legislation that has been banned from our friends on the energy and commerce committee which are distinguished chair has helped craft that can make a big difference for farmers opportunities for farms and forests to reduce global warming pollution for them to make money as my good friend the ranking member pointed out there are potentially billions of dollars for american agriculture this is an important opportunity they also can earn more money and we're seeing this in my state leasing their land for when turbines a national renewable portfolio standard is going to develop that market even more and thoughtful members of the agricultural community that i've been discussing are excited about it done right there's an opportunity for cleaner fuels to come from forestry and agriculture not questionable things where there's it's not clear that that actually creates more energy and has dire economic and environmental consequences but we can get this right we can provide a safety net to protect rural families from higher energy prices and i commend you mr chairman for the work that you've done the other committee had to do that this is serious business the notion that somehow there will not be regulation of agriculture not just for its greenhouse gas emissions  for other things that are consequences of massive family massive factory farms that put at risk american family agriculture is a pipe dream we're seeing demand for more thoughtful regulation to protect people and we're seeing millions of people in urban areas having to spend massive amounts of money to deal with the consequences of not having appropriate environmental regulations it is coming this is part of a framework that can help them make money everybody's going to be better off i appreciate what you're doing with this hearing look forward to i thank you and the ranking member for holding this important hearing today on the impact of climate change on a culture in forestry is the at large member for the state of south dakota predominantly rural state this issue is particularly important to my constituents moreover the opportunity for culture in forestry sectors to participate in mitigating climate change is equally an important topic it's estimated that agriculture and forest lands currently sequester approximately twelve percent of our nation's carbon emissions with proper proactive management texan techniques it's been estimated that the egg and four sectors can sequester up to twenty five percent of the mission as such the ag and forestry industries are essential partners in our efforts to mitigate climate change forest can both the mid and sequester carbon and through proper forest management which includes banning overstocks ban working to ensure diversity of types of ages of trees and other steps we can increase hearing your testimony and i want to thank the chairman for calling this important hearing thank you i have my concerns about the cap and trade bill that's coming up i hope that we get it right so thank you very much thank you produce in our state at least generally depending of course on weather conditions about three hundred eighty two million bushels of corn a year and i am very proud to represent a district in a state that is a leader in promoting alternative energy sources and two of its annual production of revenue and i think at a time like this when recreation sometimes bumps heads with agricultural desires and goals we've got  issue it is an issue revolving around the survival of this planet as we know it and the more we can produce renewables for fuel   and then as we progressed and made salt less less valuable and alternatives more viable we stopped wars over salt and refrigeration was a big part of it and i think the same thing can happen with renewables alternative fuels that we can reduce the need to have wars over oil  not that we've ever had one but i thought i might just mention that and so i look forward to listening to the experts and i have some questions that i'd like to raise that would hopefully help me maturin to you about the balance of my time and i thank the gentleman very much and now we're going to turn to our very distinguished panel and each witness will be recognized for five minutes at five minutes i'm going to tap begin to tap you'll have fifteen minutes fifteen seconds department of agriculture and the lead author on the agriculture chapter in the global climate change impacts in the united states report dr hadfield has had a distinguished scientific career authoring over three hundred and twenty five publications and serving as laboratory director of the national soil tilled laboratory he has also served as the president of the american society of agronomy so we thank you sir whenever you're ready please it is a pleasure to be able to present this information on climate impacts on agriculture this committee agriculture is extremely sensitive to climate and weather and resilience of our production systems the changes in climate occurs by understanding these impacts and their effects it is also important to realize that u s agriculture is diverse and as simple general statements about the impacts of climate are not possible climate change is evident by rising temperatures increasing present but taishan and intensity of storms rising carbon dioxide and ozone levels will impact agriculture these changes are not consistent across the united states and may affect some agricultural areas more than others the scenarios of climate change in the us have implications for agriculture which must be understood to protect the capability of food feed fiber and fuel production and quality one easier ways for us to understand the implications of agriculture climate on agriculture is to consider the impacts of climate on animals the increase of in temperature and potential for more heat waves and extreme heat events will affect animal production animals respond to a combination of temperature and humidity in a similar fashion to humans when it is hot and humid we decrease our activity reduce our food intake and generally are less energetic than at other times high temperature and humidity reduce the feed intake of animals which in turn reduces the rate of meat milk or egg production at the opposite end of the range cold temperature extremes can reduce the increased speed intake but the actual energy is consumed to keep the animals warm which results in reduced growth for milk production extremes in hot or cold have negative impacts on animals and heat waves can have serious consequences on animals and can create conditions in which there is increased death of animals in feedlots or barns the high temperature extremes will affect plants as well as animals and in particular concern is a probability of heat waves are high temperature events of the pollination stage exposure of pollen to high temperatures can destroy the pollen and reduce the production of seed or fruit occurrences of heat ways of pollen time can have significant and negative impacts on plant production plants different a reaction to temperature cool season plants which are best suited to lower temperatures include many of the vegetables like these are spent in warm season plants like watermelon cotton or cucumber thrive when the temperatures are warm as temperature warms this causes the plants to progress to their stage of development at a rate which does not allow for maximum expansion of leaves dams or fruits one foot example of potential impacts of warming temperatures and crop yield has been found for soybean as temperatures increase so i've been yields in the southern us are predicted to decrease by three and a half percent while in the midwest they're projected to increase by two and a half percent rising temperatures will exceed the optimum range for soybeans in the south while bringing soybean into the optimum range in the midwest likewise for many vegetables warming temperatures will cause a reduction in production even more quickly because these are cool season crops while many of the vegetables are grown during the winter and temperate climates the length at this time of them which is period of op is optimal decrease increasing winter temperatures does increase the length of the growing season and there are potential negative impacts on fruit trees which requires a certain amount of cooling or chilling in order to set fruit climate models and observations indicate that nighttime temperatures are rising faster than daytime temperatures this shift in temperature patterns during the day has significant impacts on plants particularly during the grain of development periods warm temperatures at night increasing respiration rate which reduces the amount of sugars and starches which can be stored in grain or fruit this causes the fruit or grain size to be smaller and reduces the length of the grain going period agriculture or quality of agricultural produce is not often thought of when we discuss climate change our there are many pain facts of climate and weather in product quality variations in wind quality among years are related to subtle changes in weather sensitive periods in the growing  and there are indirect and direct direct and indirect effects of climate on agriculture agriculture has and can adapt to a changing climate the areas in which we grow certain plants demonstrates  systems to the climate this adaptation has been occurring in agriculture over centuries as farmers have selected the best crops for their regions change their cultural practices to cope with the risk from environmental stresses and modify their practices to reduce the impacts of biological stresses caused by weeds insects or diseases research has been able to help speed the process of providing information to guide the decisions thank you very much mr chairman thank you dr hadfield very much our next  ms heather cooley senior researcher at the pacific institute the school e works with the pacific institute's water program researching climate change water privatization and california water issues she  also studied climate and land use change at the lawrence berkeley laboratory in california we welcome you thank you mr chairman and members of the committee thank you for inviting me here today to offer testimony regarding regarding the effects of climate change on agriculture as directed i will limit my discussion here to those impacts related to water resources impacts on water resources will be especially problematic for agriculture numerous national and regional assessments including the study released earlier this week demonstrate that climate change is already affecting us fresh water resources and that these impacts will intensify in the future the u s geological survey regularly reports that agriculture uses seventy percent of the nation's fresh water resources the impacts on water resources will have major consequences for agriculture rain said agriculture is especially vulnerable to changing precipitation patterns in response to these changes the farmers may shift to supplemental irrigation which may increase tensions over limited water resources we're already seeing this in some areas for example in georgia's flint river basin farmers are rapidly shifting from rain fed to irrigated agriculture and this shift is one of the factors feeling the ongoing tensions between georgia alabama and florida surface water pot supplies will be increasingly out of phase with agricultural water demand surface runoff what is expected to decline during summer months at precisely to the time when our cultural water demand peaks floods and droughts will become more common and more severe and these extreme events will have a greater effect on crop production and changes in average conditions losses from droughts already total sixty eight billion dollars annually much of which is due to impacts on agriculture and these losses could rise in the future many of the impacts of climate change are now on avoidable in fact they're already occurring the good news is that adaptation can substantially reduce the risk of climate change for the agricultural sector but we cannot be complacent the time to act is now in the time available i will offer a set of recommendations to reduce agriculture's vulnerability to changes in water resources first we must improve the management of surface resources specifically the bureau of reclamation an army corps of engineers should adopt new rules for the operation of water infrastructure in light of climate change and based on these answers in the methodology as they develop the bureau and core should provide guidance and oversight to local and state agencies to do similar analyses we must also improve groundwater management our dependence on groundwater may increase in the future in response to more frequent and severe drought throughout much of the united states however groundwater basins are mismanaged and over drafted in particular the federal government should require all states to design and implement comprehensive groundwater monitoring and management program we must also capture water conservation and efficiency potential reducing agricultural water use reduces vulnerability to drought however many conservation practices require substantial investment to help defray these initial costs the government should expand funding for water conservation efficiency within the federal farm bill in addition we should provide tax exemptions or rebates for efficient irrigation equipment and infrastructure we must also eliminate federal policies that inadvertently increase vulnerability to climate change for example the farm bill provides substantial direct and payments for water intensive crops that may not be appropriate under future climate conditions and may ultimate increase vulnerability the climate change in its place we should support new policies that promote climate change adaptation specifically the environmental quality incentives program provides ca shares for practices that promote agricultural production and environmental quality equip our accounts for less than one percent of the overall budget and congress has threatened to reduce funding further the federal government should expand funding for farm bill conservation programs especially equipped we must also continue research development although climate change is a global crawl problem its impacts are local accordingly detailed susman assessments of climate change risk require thorough analysis at the regional level without significant investment to generate estimates of regional impacts of climate change will remain a vague and unwieldy threat the information must then be communicated to the agricultural community farmers and local communities will ultimately be responsible for implementing adaptation strategies and the information that is available has not been adequately conveyed to farmers additional outreach is best accomplished by building on existing relationships the us department of agriculture and consultation with an r c s and expansion agents should develop trainings and provide guidance about climate change impact and adopt adaptation strategies for the agricultural sector we know that climate change is already occurring and that our farms are on the front lines the challenge is to quickly equip the most vulnerable sectors and communities with tools to plan for and adapt to unavoidable impacts thank hooley it is now a great pleasure of mine to be really introduce the next witness to members of the select committee he is a fellow south dakotan and a friend mr tom troxel tom is the director of the black hills forest resource association mr troxel brings a deep understanding of forestry and the forest industry group gleaned from over three decades of experience as a forester working with the forest products companies in south dakota and wyoming  and for about ten years or longer than that but ten years in the u s forest service before then he's been an invaluable resource to my office on issues related directly to the black hills national forest and forest practices and policies more generally his expertise is well known at home but also recognized and respected nationally personal level i'd like to publicly thank tom for sharing his advice and counsel with me for many years now and i strongly commend the testimonies of my colleagues today and members of the committee for this opportunity to discuss climate change and forest many climate experts are predicting a warmer drier climate in the connectors forests of the western united states if correct based on the last decade of drought conditions over much of the west our forests will be increasingly susceptible to insect epidemics and forest fires both of which have significant effects on air quality water quality stream flows wildlife habitat infrastructure recreation in rural communities sustainable management of forest can to a substantial degree mitigate global climate change and there appears to be substantial overlap between climate change goals and proper forest management forest are unique  that no other means of sequestering or offsetting carbon has the added benefits of providing clean air clean water biodiversity wildlife habitat statics and wood products federal policies that invite and encourage sustainable use of our nation's fores can help reduce low carbon energy and sequester carbon through management strategies for seaquest ration reducing fires and insect epidemics substitution of biomass for fossil fuels and utilization of wo forest can either be a sink or a carbon source a carefully managed forest can both prevent and reduce greenhouse gas emissions emphasis must be placed on maintaining forests helped by painting over stock stands to reduce the risk of insect epidemics and wildfires when catastrophic events do occur dead tree should be salvaged the area regenerated to restore a forest cover and allow young trees to start absorbing carbon dioxide to photo cen emissions of greenhouse gases can be reduced through the substitution of biomass for fossil fuels to produce heat electricity and transportation fuels the congressional definition of renewable biomass in the  critical for cogeneration plants to be financially feasible for us bio mass from federal lands must be eligible and all sustainable manage forest public or private should be equally eligible to supply biomass i'd like to show several slides if we can have the slides please i'm going to go through these quickly in the interest of time this is the result of a mountain pine beetle epidemic in the black hills dead trees are a carbon source and a fire risk next slide this is a mountain pine beetle epidemic in colorado these dead trees are also a carbon source and fire risk all the stands in this entire landscape are lodgepole pine they are the same age and they're overstocked this is a mountain pine beetle epidemic waiting to happen and increased temperatures pulled the trigger next slide this is the smoke column from the jasper fire in the black hills fires are a huge source of greenhouse gases and particulate next slide this is the jasper fire area it's now a carbon source as the trees decay there's a risk of and forest insects next slide this is a thin stand upon row supine in the black hills this is a healthy stand with low susceptibility to fires and insects this is a carbon sequestration factory there's wrong public support for planning like this in the black hills because residents understand the link between overstocked forest and fires and mountain pine beetles this is a slash piled in the forest service burns thousands of these each year these are a source of greenhouse gases in particular it's the should but do not meet me p r e e s definition of renewable bio ass next slide by last slide is a picture of the case number one area this is the site in the black hills national forest where the first timber sale from the entire national forest system was sold in eight hundred ninety nine this area has been banned and harvested several times since eight hundred ninety nine since then approximately six billion board feet have been harvested from the black hills national forest and at the same time the standing volume has increased from about one and a half billion board feet to almost six billion board feet sustainable forest management really does work including forestry in the climate change equation offers an opportunity to have our cake and eat it too we can make our forests healthier reduce the risk of wildfires and insects better utilize slash and small trees create new jobs in rural communities and produce renewable energy from american resources in conclusion our next witness joining us today is mr ford west he's president of the fertilizer institute mr west wing's thirty years of experience with the fertilizer institute representing the association before congress federal potash to farmers who grow food for america's diner table fertilizer is a strategic commodity and food production because forty six percent of the world's food supply is tied to the use of fertilizers and all sectors of our industry will be impacted by climate change possible and focus on the nitrogen sector this morning which is most vulnerable to the impacts of a cap and trade system and it's our goal at the end of the day congress passes cap and trade that will not place our industry in a serious competitive disadvantage compared to our global fertiliser producers we compete with that china russia venezuela and will not force the domestic fertilizer industry overseas to countries with no carbon reduction either the industry uses natural gas as a feed stock or an amp put required to make nitrogen we use natural gas as an agreement in a fixed chemical process that combines nitrogen from the air hydrogen from natural gas to produce nitrogen fertilizer ammonia and we produce c o two and half out of change in the laws of chemistry there's nothing we do to change this process and ninety percent of the cost of producing a ton of ammon is tied directly to the process of natural gas and so this makes the nitrogen industry one of the most intensive greenhouse gas intensive and trade intensive sectors of our economy now the industries work hard to be as energy efficient as we can we've cut the amount of natural gas used to produce a ton of ammonia by eleven percent not only does that save energy but it also reduces c o two emissions and you estimate that we've had about four and a half million tons of c o two per year out of our production process we want to be more efficient but the chemical nature of our process limits  r ability to buy much more efficiency gains in our production process one of our big concerns here is fuel switching we don't have a very good history with fuel switching when congress  hundred eighty seven and allowed utilities to burn natural gas to produce electricity as the utilities began that process and went from zero to about twenty percent of our electricity produced by burning natural the process natural gas went from like two dollars to about eight and we shut down twenty six nitrogen plants in that process we were the poster child of leakage and that public policy as a challenge we have currently we have twenty nine nitrogen plants operating in the u s we import about fifty five percent of our nitrogen and eighty two percent of that natural come from countries that are not necessarily eager to regulate carbon and reduce c o two emissions so i hope you can understand that we have some concerns with our remaining domestic nitrogen production as the utilities again will turn to natural gas as an alternative to generate electricity and i know that we're trying to go to solar and wind to produce electricity but the backup when the sun's not john in the wind is not blowing is natural gas so it's important to understand that  fertilizer is a global commodity traded in the world market we are not only having to compete against those countries that are that are not interested in climate change policy but we also got to be concerned with those governments who are signed on to kyoto who are looking for ways to protect their energy intensive in their and we just hope that this american policy that we develop cap and trade doesn't cause us more plant closure and  raise the amount of imported nitrogen that we have the average plant that we have today employs one hundred fifty two hundred people these are good jobs average salaries about seventy five thousand they're located in don't advisory service do an analysis of energy cost and what that may mean to farmers it somewhere around six to twelve billion dollars based on the moon water bill and that's why you find agriculture so concerned about having an witness is dr johannes lehmann associate professor of soil fertility management and soil biology chemistry at cornell university in the world's expert on bio char dr laman has conducted research around the world recently studying nutrient and carbon management in the central amazon for the research institution of forestry dr lehman welcome to this let's make your now recognized such thermally ultimately is about one and a half to two orders of magnitude more stable in soil than on charred organic matter thus creating solid carbon pools with a mean residence time of several hundreds of thousands of years production and its  provide several additional important value streams beyond direct climate change mitigation these include waste management and edgy production and soil improvement by a child can be produced from a variety of feed stocks that would otherwise constitute a financial environmental liability examples include animal money us in agricultural regions with high phosphorus and nitrogen loadings green waste that may generate not generate nitric oxide or methane during landfill  fire prevention the second value stream arises from the bio energies generated during bio production between tap ten two and seven units of energy can be produced for each unit of energy invested during the life cycle of various  the third value stream is the improvement of soil quality upon by additions crop yields and many less productive soils can be significantly increased and losses of agro chemicals such as fertilizer nutrients herbicides and pesticides can be such widespread adoption of by systems were required sustainability criteria by which i must therefore be integrated into existing food production systems and not be an alternative food production make use of already developed best management practices such a conservation agriculture and build on residue collection systems that are already in place while a few fully implemented modern systems exist worldwide the necessary engineering and science capacity is available to evaluate just systems that scale of implementation in the near term in fact science has rapidly evolved even over the past twelve months evaluation does not rely on a fundamental advance in science but of existing signs the underlying technology is robust and sufficiently simple to make it up likable to many regions globally current hurdles to implementation our availability of paralysis units at sufficient maturity to allow all necessary distributed nature of the systems and the potential for variety between systems create significant opportunities for sustainability but also hurdles to widespread adoption regulation and financial viability establishment of policies at national and international levels it's required to remove hurdles to implementation and support full evaluation of bio systems mechanisms for carbon trading need to be put into place that recognize methodologies must include full lifecycle accounting of emission balances to deliver climate benefits the anti a value chain of mitigation approaches must be recognized to reward those activities that have multiple environmental and societal benefits by which i must not be an alternative to making dramatic reduction in greenhouse gas emissions immediately but it may be an important tool in our arsenal for combating dangerous climate change thank you lehman i thank all of our witnesses for their testimony i'll go ahead and start out the first set of questions and mr trackside want to spend a few minutes focusing on your testimony regarding the substitution of biomass for fossil fuels to produce heat electricity and transportation fuels you could discuss what impact the federal definition of renewable biomass in a renewable electricity standard and the renewable fuel standard has on developing of the financial incentives that are associated with both of those pieces of legislation in the case of the r fs definition a renewable biomass from the national forest was completely excluded most of the forest in the black hills are federal blank hills national forest and so that that whole stream of biomass is taken off the table in the current version of the r e e s that there are really three components of what a biomass that would go into any of those type of facility so there's no residues there's slash from slash piles like we saw the picture of and there are pre commercial things the in the are e e s definition the mill residues would be included but the way i read and understand the definition is that the pre commercial thinnings and the slash piles would be excluded from the renewable biomass because of a specific phrase that excludes timber from mature for stand and that's a a term it's a fairly generic term just not a definition for it i think it's open to debate or challenge and especially when we get into the the federal process of making decisions that could be subject to appeal or litigation it just opens a lot of uncertainty the other part of the record our us definition that's problematic term the requirement that it be harvested environmentally sustainable quantities as determined by the appropriate federal land manager as forster's i'm i'm completely supportive of sustainable  quantities and management but i don't know and this is open to speculation about what the process would be to make that determination and what kind of analysis or decision be required to get marked up in the energy and commerce committee and we hope to be able to make the changes that you suggest so that we are able to utilize pre commercial sendings and other what he biomass to current forest management practices on federal forest but would you like to speak for a minute or two about the importance how this affects private forests owners as well the most of the timber lands in the black hills are federal i think it's important though to include private timber lands and make sure that those private landowners do have a chance to contribute toward production of renewable energy and i would encourage you to and now recognize the gentleman from tennessee the ms blackburn thank you madam chairman in thank you to our witnesses for taken cham to be with us today we all appreciated i'm sorry that i was late to the hearing but as you have learned probably from others today tricky but we have the opportunity to make them all and appreciate it agriculture is a very vital part of the economy in tennessee which is where my district is fanned and we are hearing quite a bill and the effect that's going to have on agriculture and madam chairman i have two pages that one of our constituents and over these are just ag facts i would love to submit those into the record for this hearing if that's without objection so i entered thank you i appreciate that this is all about agriculture in tennessee and it's forty four billion dollars of our state's khana me we have that's eleven percent of our state's economy and we have seventy nine thousand farms that are employing more than three hundred thousand people in our state and over forty percent of our state is actually farm land so the issues that we're discussing today are vital importance to us and so many different levels and as i said people are very concerned about what  livelihood and their ability to earn a livelihood the estimates that have come out so far is that the farmers net income would decrease by twenty three billion dollars annually over the next twenty five years we've got a lot of farmers that live off that income and and also the increase in construction cost of farm buildings and equipment is expected to be a five to ten percent increase added to whatever the inflationary rate is so when you look at what the farmers are up against with the cost of buildings and construction and equipment and maintenance and then you get into actually dealing with the crop itself and mr west fertilizer is a big part of bad and when i am in west tennessee and we're talking about not only the row crops but the soybeans and the cotton fertilizer is a huge component of that and what i would like to hear from you what my constituents are asking for from me if cap and trade if x men marcie is passed into law what is it going to do to the fertilizer industry what is it going to do to your prices and equally as important what is it going to do to the availability of the product and you touched on nitrogen and you touched on  offshore competition and i'd like for you to drill down on that just a little bit i think the issue for us is availability ok because we see the process of natural gas going up and that will affect agriculture across the board every three dollar increase natural gas is a billion dollars to our industry that's how much gas we use in producing and so the question becomes are we going to produce nitrogen fertilizer for example in the united states are we going to import you mentioned that some of the studies show that the optimum range of temperature for the crop harvest actually increases as c o two in the atmosphere increases so very quickly how do you see this affecting our southern states like tennessee i don't know that we made a statement that said that would you repeat that then the optimum range of temperature for crop and harvest increase as c o two in the atmosphere increases well actually the o two is really the basic building block in terms of taking c o two from the atmosphere through the process of the grose that it is temperature mediated and when one of the pieces that occurs in this is not the  here today it's significant in colorado you've seen many of the forests the pictures you showed today were quite telling many people actually blame climate change for being the sole factor i mean this thing has happened it's kind of cyclical it's happened in the past could you comment on that thank you represent us now our i believe the underlying problem is the condition of the forest and as i described of the picture in colorado it's a single species there are all the same age and there are no overstocked stains and it seems like this is one of those cases that we have to keep relearning the same lessons and managing a forest is a lot like managing a stock portfolio diversity is good are forcing colorado are lodgepole pine forests are roughly the equivalent of having an entire stock portfolio in enron several years ago and when when it goes south it all goes south and that's that's what's happened to our forests looking ahead what we need to do is concentrate on diversity of age classes diversity of species and keeping those stands stand and vigorous and healthy going forward so that they are better able to to resist and with stand the stress and not be a susceptible to fires and insect epidemics is very much like charcoal in the sense that the the organic structures change entirely when you heat biomass for instance  process and the biomass is heated to about three hundred to six hundred degrees celsius at that temperature the properties of the biomass change and that form so called charcoal charcoal is a substance that has been produced  throughout the history of humanity at all stages and has been one of the earliest industrial processes the process is very very similar identical almost as producing cha difference is that produced for the purpose of soil amendment and that means several charcoals may make a good charge but they have been found to be a lot of different made from feedstocks that would not make a very good fuel which is what we usually produce charcoal for and this char material has remarkable properties that enhance soil been dubbed as a microbial reef in soil the chemical changes that happen through these thermal so called thermal decomposition this thermal treatment is so profound that the stability of the organic matter is dramatically increased what was leave or a grass that would have decomposed within a few days or weeks or months is now a charge leave that  is stable for many decades hundreds of years even thousands of years so is it like a sponge then for example if you apply nitrogen fertilizer to the soil that actually hold interesting aspect is that char is more effective in providing these attributes these desirable attributes matter than for instance other organic material because it's more stable and it has a higher surface area it has a certain structure that makes provides its ability thank you my time expired thank you i think the gentleman here now recognizes the gentleman from california in aspire thank you madam chairman  dr lehman let me ask you you know this great exciting news coming from companies like yours that suggest that if we pursue biofuels we're going to see a reduction in greenhouse gases at some seventy percent of a company  district called solar zion that is using algae to produce aviation fuel right now and has the potential producing it for cars as well is a big problem and i'm wondering if it's yours as well is the fact that it needs to gear up it needs the resources to be able to create a large facility so that it can in fact produce the products in large volumes i guess my question to you is what do environmental benefits and we need to look at the full lifecycle impact both economically as well as from a carbon footprint point of view that i think we in the landscape and that means that when they need to be gathered carbon needs to be invested to achieve that it's a handling issue it's a storage issue and so we need to look hard at those alternative fuels and finding out that in fact there are huge repercussions do you have any recommendations to us on how we go about being somewhat more neutral in allowing those that are in the area of producing new alternatives to be able to do so in a way that doesn't create a winner or loser and yet also gives the opportunity for the entities that are out there to to gear up that's a very good question and it is indeed important to not pick winners or losers because there will likely be opportunities for many different avenues and they need to be geared to the local conditions and what is worse probably they will change over time even during the course of the year which biomass streams are available so we need to look at  integrated concepts of bio energy and and there are initiatives underway by companies as well as academic institutions and research organizations to look at bio energy as an integrated concept not as just  the commerce committee we have a provision that was called the amendment that has free allowances to trade sensitive energy intensive industries and it's my understanding that the fertilizer industry would qualify for that both as trade sensitive and energy intensive is that your understanding that's my understanding yes and thank you for doing that but then i appreciate that how would you how would you quantify the benefits to the industry in that regard if you put a dollar figure on it or a percentage your costs are well we are subject to those free allowances as you know fifteen percent of the total allowance or says set aside for energy intens industries we're probably want to what forty five fifty sectors that would be eligible for that right now i don't know exactly how many lapses we're going to be able to receive from ten years that that's going to be available when mr doyle and i were doing this we you know we we wanted to to be fairly aggressive in protecting the sectors and i think it's a pretty good slug of allowances that we've come up with but your concern is that your natural gas increases would would be larger than the value of those allowances etc the other greg your provision deals with as you know direct and indirect  cost and then we've got to go looking man that here of what's called natural gas right three dollars a half today we seem to have a lot of natural gas but everybody seems to be turning to natural gas and natural gas  i don't know if i've looked at their assessment but natural gas a spot above ten dollars three times since two thousand so it's going to be very difficult not to put up with the demand for natural gas that natural gas prices will not increase as everybody turns to i'm told that their assessment suggested that i'm not saying there will be spikes in natural gas and they're not saying that either it spiked without this bill there's been big spikes a little gas without this legislation of course the question is what this legislation would do in my understanding of their conclusion is that the combination of the free allowances the fact that we've got considerable natural gas supplies still subject to development the fact that we've got significant efficiencies we're also working on the fact that there are there are other alternatives besides natural gas that is not the only one they've concluded that they didn't see a probability we're all doing describe it as a billionaire maybe that's right we look at it we deal with possibilities and probabilities here but they felt that the probability was that we wouldn't experience that i just if this were a normal series of votes we would recess for a period of time and come back for additional questions that i and others have but there are at least twenty eight votes in this series and so i would encourage  colleagues to submit any additional questions that they have for the record i have a series as it relates to incentives and tools for agriculture to employ to adapt and what h r twenty four fifty for how it addresses those incentives  tools as well as sufficiently robust offsets programs that mr west explained but i want to emphasize to our palace today the importance of your testimony as i stated previously negotiations are intense and ongoing as it relates to possible changes to the draft that was marked up of the energy and commerce committee and the upcoming days and possibly a few extra weeks are immensely important and the issue of agriculture and forestry is a primary focus of those negotiations so we appreciate your testimony we will submit our questions to you in writing and hope that you will have time to get back to us  as quickly as possible based on the impact that your responses could have for those negotiations that are ongoing so i want to thank all of our witnesses today thank my colleagues for their participation and the hearing now