continue speaking yellow means you have thirty seconds and the red lead means you shall stop which also can take our district offices for any public comment from those areas so this time i'll ask rosemary robbins if you please come forward and share her thoughts with the committee this afternoon this concerned citizen good afternoon everybody in this latest one thirty coming across one thirty meeting and i'd like to take a couple of minutes to just talk about the budget and finance that service item thirty five we've been down the road before on this one i was here on the twenty seventh of march when no one was brought up a appreciate you coming over this afternoon kelly if you would please come forward and share your thoughts please the chair council members thank you for having me to speak first and i want to thank the chair for a very detailed and informative viewpoint in the paper yesterday four months in mind and i am i am now feeling like you know there's a large there's a large and growing population on this island that hill said that there's mismanagement on the in the county ministration and that that speaks to the need for a different system or the county council would hire a director and that's been talked about a lot in the public also there seems to be a conflict with council working for the mayor and the the makes it a one sided and i hope that that's something that you would take up i think if you a couple weeks ago i spoke at the country sustainability group and the they put together a panel and the landfill issues and recycling in the have been trying to get answers to some listen not getting any response but the biggest question was how can the mayor execute a contract that will encourage millions of dollars in to build peace and possibly unfulfilled levels of  trust delivery without county council approval so there's a question of is this just an agreement or is this is the county encumbered with this agreement is it a firm contract and if so how can it not be funded and is that where some of the  encumbered funds are going this is like like it was mentioned in the viewpoint this is still like a shell game to the public another big question is when are we going to see the record of the contractor for having done this type of work in another place which was one of the requirements of the r p there are two big questions and how are they going to reach that landfill diversion of eighty five percent of the community because they never shown any record having done that before but the main thing is you department of parks and recreation department of public works and the department of water supply and this we received a communication fifteen this eighty eight from m it was just a matter of looking at more sleeping so that we could have gotten if we would oppose back in june july first we would have paid another two hundred thousand more on our calculation to the interest  because of that maturity one month maturity and we know that we would comment ask you for this particular request when we saw the bonds but our interest on that time was just to get a better structure and a little bit lower interest rate mr chair and i'm here to answer any questions that you might have with regards to this particular request mr chairman and again i appreciate you so be working together to make sure that we get this all screwed away i will ask once more any member of the committee the opportunity to ask questions on this request which covers multiple departments but basically is for the debt service payment so if you have questions make it known at the same pl communications attached to this item for filing so moved second the motion made by mr white seconded by mr coach were under discussion members any discussion yes i will work hard to eliminate this future request i really appreciate it mr chair again i thank you for your support thank you very much director let us move on to who have from the department shortages in our salaries mostly one real note is on our vehicle  part area the two hundred forty thousand dollars is part of that we've been short since november and i brought this up in the past and i think it's very critical that we take a look at that i'll be happy to and the reason i'm disappointed is that last year we were presented with a two million dollar bill for a new provision in the contract called rank for rank recall and with that increased cost of two million dollars we had no change in service it was simply handing two million dollars to roughly one hundred fifty people top top end of the department  we've not been given any terminations as to how the premium pay breaks out between overtime and rank for rank recall responsibilities so it's hard for me to get excited about this simply forking over two point one million to cover these these costs that in my view through rescheduling how we deal with the various stations we could have simply made better use of straight time and avoided a significant amount of overtime that we have driven up so far this year and looks like we will be continuing to do for the rest of the year you know we've always counsel has always said if you have a significant effect event that generates a significant cost come back to us but in my view this significant cost could have been avoided by simply thinking out of the box and many communities as you well know around the country are laying fire people off lane police off because they don't have the money that doesn't you know just because we have access to the funds doesn't mean that we shouldn't be spending very wisely and when i look as i brought up last year at the fact that eighty seven percent of fire departments nationwide  either fully volunteer or mostly volunteer that means that means to me that other communities are looking at their responsibility to provide for fire  in a very different way and coming up with solutions that are not costing the same amount of money and i'm not for a second suggesting that we go to a volunteer force i'm simply suggesting that we need to take a look at the way we are scheduling our people the way we're utilizing them and the number of different companies that we've got involved in our current operation and you know i think th is creative enough to move us down that road and i'd just like to encourage him and i hope the rest of us will encourage him to do so because it's the taxpayers money and i take that responsibility very seriously and i'd like to think that the chief can be equally as responsible with controlling our costs in a way that we're simply not using resources that other departments would love to have two million dollars extra would go a long way and a bunch of other departments that have either been turned down or don't feel comfortable asking so it's  it's unfortunate that we've gotten to this point but at this point you know i guess we have to we have to pay the piper because we're not that different ways of scheduling and in a way that we can reduce the premium pay keep everybody else thank you very whole as far as their base pairs concern but but try to get the premium pay to come down a bit so i won't be supporting the measure by thank you for the opportunity to concerns question i would have is with that rescheduling and then tweaking the positions could you have saved the two million dollars able to adjust make adjustments for a lower rank person to fill those positions then we still do that but the way it's written is it allows persons of that rank to be able to take a vacant not vacant position but a position that a person is not there at the to fill in on that day and what we do gain from that is the experience of that position in other words we're having captains come in for captain not hundred percent of the time but only all the time that is written into the collective bargaining agreement and we have tried statewide to figure out ways to make it better because we're not the only one having this situation but this is what we've been dealt with with the collective bargaining agreement that was arbitrated on does not choice of mine  whether i agree or disagree doesn't matter my responsibility is to pay the people what their collective bargaining is and stay within that realm i'm not allowing people to go over that limit i could see if that was happening  only in cases of extreme emergency will allow that to happen so we try to keep track of that and that's the primaries that i've been dealt with and i think that we've been extremely efficient since i took over to make things you know very responsible or fiscally responsible for that matter because we've trimmed pretty much everything since two thousand and eight this arbitration i mean was beyond all the chiefs in the whole state of way so you know i understand but yet i also have a responsibility to take care of our people  just you know you made a comment that said you know we're not going to let anybody go over the amount that that was budgeted if you can if you have some sort of say on that couldn't  make it so that they don't go beyond what was already budgeted review or we try to we do that all the time on a monthly basis we try to rectify all the numbers and make sure that we keep everybody on track we have our personnel people tallying up the numbers making sure that people don't go over what they're allotted in the collective bargaining unit which is two hundred eighty dollars per rank per fiction shall not interfere with management's right to manage their recall personnel in compliance with this agreement big and existing laws rules and regulations application of section twenty seven temporary assignment shall be modified to accomodate the rank for recall problem i mean program sorry in for each jurisdiction item to eligible firefighters shall be offered twelve shifts total of two hundred eighty eight dollars per fiscal year via this program with no premium directly related to overtime work such as but not limited to compensation for travel time and from work and mileage reimbursement eligible firefighters from their rank firefighter to three and kept  for the county's an airport equipment operators for the airport and airport attendants and airport fire captains for the state shall notify the fire chief of their availability for this rank for recall program as provided in their rank for a recall policy failure to do so all shell result in a waiver of the firefighters opportunity for their rank for a recall program for purposes of this section the firefighters participating in a recall recall program are not the fire chief or designee in each jurisdiction has the sole responsibility to assign rank for rank recall in those previously named position and show in good faith endeavor to assign each to overtime work on a fair and equitable basis given due consideration to operational requirements procedures to implement the rank frank recall program include proper and timely notification of availability a limitations for this program pursuant to number two above shall be developed in good faith good faith consultation between the parties there shall be no change in the classification covered by said policy and or procedures each in good faith meet with the union at least annually to monitor costs the operational efficiency the equitable distribution of overtime among the various firefighter ranks and to assess the viability of modif modifying continuing or expanding this program prior to the expiration of the unit to agreement well something in there is a you shall offer that to all captain all rank all reynolds personnel yes offer the opportunity it's not saying everybody gets twelve twelve two hundred eighty eight hours right so part of the consultation is each jurisdiction had to work out a parameter of where that goes if a person is on vacation sick leave industrially family leave training they're entitled to that or comp time they're entitled to that so once that opportunity arises the individual calls in city i am available on this date and if the once that happens if they're not up to their limit they're allowed to come in take that that day or that whatever hours that they work but i mean it sounds like you've got a lot of  need for somebody to take over somebody else's spot that what the what the issue is people calling in sick or whatever not necessarily say it's all types of leave the only time we don't do it is in there's a permanent vacancy it's the only time we don't feel that so if there's an opportunity there an individual takes a month off and there's three captains that's a sign to that engine per se then the other two are off they have their normal work shifts and then those two can share or put in for those times that they can work on their days off as long as they don't incur double time so w individuals put in for that and that person is on vacation they're not within their two hundred eight hours they're allowed to work that shift in the rank of captain well you said something else the that piqued my interest he said that if it's a permanent vacancy you then don't fill the position waiting for that time period so we hardly have those speaking fees because when people move we might have six weeks off the only time we don't do that because the provision is that it has to be for a person that they're saying how can i think a person's rank call if they're not known for flying because and that would be unfair but but the position  and it kind of seems to me is that we're like in a catch twenty two here you know i understand the concern about well let's do it better let's be more careful that the most frugal is the better job of scheduling but i'm also listening to the rules that you have to operate under in the contract and it sounds like if you're going to make any kind of changes to save money that have to be made up front in this bargaining  process as we're sitting here trying to administer a program that you have the pretty much tied with what you have to deal with and the only way we're going to get rid of all these o t is that more people you know people are entitled to sick leave the out that we do have to cover up and to this point the rent for a program we have it on a separate sheet that we look at so as of the end of march the thirty first we are one million one hundred eighty one thousand dollars into it and we're not at the end to june thirtieth so i'm not really sure what the total percentage is but we're pretty close and that's already we've been asking it we knew we won't make it to the finish line and it's we don't have other conflagrate from you know and like you said earlier we're pretty much between a rock and a hard place and i have the responsibility of caring that out and we are extremely frugal when we can be so i think the scary part for me is that the kind of work you do you know it isn't something that you can say you know when we want to for me what i mean right now and so it's it's difficult because you can't say oh well we'll get to it tomorrow of we you got to do it right now so right our ability to manage them out of hours that is entitle to them in other words twelve shifts if they work twelve twenty four a shift that comes out to two hundred eighty eight hours we watch each person's accumulation of that within the rank we try and we have no control if if a person is sick they're entitle to get that call to say hey are you available it's not whether i call them or not call them our chief have to make that call so i mean it's it's really tough trying to administer the program and it is costly but if it if there's a veil ability within that allott time for that individual and they have to be offered that as well so it's not that would be a violation on my part in your opinion are there any abuse coming from your right to write you know we're trying to track that to very little if any you know because once you reach your you're done so we go back to how we normally run businesses with temporary assignment if people are not there but we don't see that as often  details it looks like your department rank like below environmental management police parks and rec so that tells me a lot what you're doing really is responsible because the type of work you folks do definitely lends itself to cement injuries from you know higher high probability of injury injuries and what have you and also this year twenty fifteen claims you're down from previous years so i give you you know credence to that because i think that cost us a lot of money when i look down the lines of the dollar amounts and so i want to just give you you know kudos to assisting and somehow keeping up the good work in this department which is the workman's worker's compensation section which i think we call us for you well thank you for rank only makes up about forty percent of the premium pay so it's that's not really the focus of my concern because i realize that's something we have to abide by my concern is doesn't look to me like we're trying very hard to change business as usual the fire department business as usual results in a significant amount of overtime through scheduling  the people who move into management don't get the same access to overtime when they move to a forty hour a week job so i'm not aware of any other department where they're getting overtime pay a company type compensation by moving into a higher position and so you know we have that issue we have the issue of rank for rank grew out of the guys in the higher ranks feeling like they were getting left out of the overtime because all the guys in the lower ranks were getting the majority overtime so it bothers me a bit to see a department that is so focused on overtime but it's costing us the taxpayers a lot more money than it needs to and i'd be happy to work with the chief to figure out if there is some way to get around this because i think there is i think we just need to take a look at it and be realistic about the fact that we can't just simply allow our resources to be taken up and large amounts in this way we go back and look at what where the fire department was in relationship to others prior to everyone having to go on furloughs if you look at where they are today compared to the h g a and other unit and sky high and during the time when everyone else was on furlough there were saying it so i'm comfortable saying that i think we've got a challenge that we need to take on on behalf of the taxpayers make sure that we're getting very well taken care of by the fire department but at the at  a level of resource use that hopefully a little bit more responsible thank you thank you we'll see the commission can do their job  we decided not to do this you know say the majority felt the same way mr white what happens with the department that they were not able to bear personnel or i mean obviously you can't do that what about not do the overtime not send people to cover for somebody else what happens there i know you've got i think you have six e i'm glad that the sentiment is that it's not entirely my decision or not at all my decision on how to run this and be efficient or what have you our job is to manage that policy as best as possible and i assure you that we're doing that  and you know like i spoke about last week you know our department is training harder than ever trained before they're doing more than they ever done before and it's not about the pay is about what we love to do and our passion for the we had two areas that was volunteer honna and alumni and you want to know the reason why we are not volunteer anymore is because the companies and the people in those areas just can't afford to do volunteerism the people in those communities af the county for twenty four seven one on one service from the fire department and that's what we did and we will continue to do that until you tell us otherwise it's really unfortunate  that in some cases collective bargaining ends up in a way that it doesn't look very well but i can assure you all of our workers weren't asking for that they just want to come to work do their job get paid fairly and get to work you know the question about abuse very little if any once it raises a red flag we're on it and we have conversations with the individuals and we do everything that we can to keep them you know following the rules within the guides of the this collective bargaining unit as well as our rules and regulations know i appreciate the question and i understand the sentiment and i can look you know the same way about our tax money and that's why we try to put together a very good program within the parameters that we're giv top thank you thank you chair for the questions for the chief return this meeting to order members not jeopardize the billy of the county to perform its requirements so stating that i can tell you in the upcoming budget year council has various before e m public works any department and i need to find where we think that members but for this request at this time to make sure we can end the current fiscal year revenues as a set of two point one eight five zero six eight mini carry over savings from the general fund things i could use for the new budget so that is what i am willing to consider at this time so most things i have a motion made by mr i mean motor we have copies of your document thank you mr chair we had the committee's comments in the march twenty seventh meeting so i put together and depicting the possible directions regarding our budget amendment requests our request falls pat a circumstances that are there we have no control over have resulted in projected revenues exceeding the revenue projections we did for fiscal year two contracts in order to decide income or sufficient amounts of funding to support our requests who does income a portion of contracts that are addressing long term regulatory compliance since we submitted the budget amendment our proposed fiscal year two thousand and fifteen budget was submitted and the funds to fund the contracts that are proposed would this income and we're not included so if we are asked to look within we'll be asking in our two thousand and fifteen budget proposal for additional funding for the contracts that we had to dissin cumbered that address long term really three compliance the funding for source for that requests could be the excess revenue that was just a brief background of where i came from was from solid waste and i've worked there for over twenty years in welding wastewater before i got transferred to solid waste but i worked in maintenance and operations and management for quite a number of years there so i brought that to the table and to try to bring about some positive changes for solid waste a vision first thing i did as chief was do an internal audit we definitely found some areas of compliance concern we found some inconsistent priorities and lack of measurable goals and some long term planning challenges because of the crisis management that the division has been in for so long we're making progress for sure brought we've produced some of those documents for you guys over the last year however the worst finding that i that i found was a difficult level of cooperation perhaps between council administration and it's not a one way street there's been challenges from both sides and for me that that increased cooperation i think needs to be addressed perhaps because i think we can all agree that cooperation is more beneficial in finger pointing in trying to place blame back and forth in the media war and all that that's happened over this past year so we're here to attempt to try to start a more cooperative process and we hope councils want to do the same recall that when we first got the budget cut back in last year we started make some service cuts i'm going to keep this brief  at that point in time there was a measure of good faith that we made and i know this is a different council body but it's important for you to know that we did make those cuts in the attempt to  reestablish the ability to make it through the fiscal year financially there was an agreement there between the mayor and council chair at that time and in good faith we did reinstate services with the understanding that we would resubmit our budget so we've been we've been criticised for a lot of different things maybe some of it justified some of that i don't think it was but to me is always division perfect of course not we're far from it we've openly admitted historical compliance concerns and well our lack of resources to address a lot of those thing the old nine audit and the salt waste management plan both supported the division need for additional resources to build sustainability in the division so that's what we're trying to do now we have new priorities new goals and measures a five year plan we've looked at our compliance issues over the last eight years  unfortunately it's a very costly measure that we've had to look at but it is it is the facts and that's what we've been working with the trying to address keep in mind that i asked of young people on the subways management plan called for a fifty million dollar your budget our budgets right now are hovering around thirty million and still we get some cuts there so i just respectfully wish for this body to realize where we budget wise and what that i actually calling for just to meet status quo yes we've been blamed for not doing better but to me this cycle that we're going through needs to be done we need to look at what's going on in the division and we need to take an honest approach to building sustainability those of us that have worked hard on that for the past couple of years is getting more and more difficult to continue to deal with some posturing back and forth  some political things that have happened in the media perhaps but these issues that we're dealing with us always are not political issues we're talking about environmental protection and building sustainability that's what my job is i mean i'm not a politician and i'm elected official my job is just to build resources for the divisions so that we can reach and meet the goals and measures that we give council each year that's that's what my job is and that's what we're trying to do we just want to provide that perspective for council so if we don't start to work a little closer together i think and try to realize what's what's best for for the environment and for the taxpayers you know we're going to continue with this stalemate of of blaming back and forth so so what now what i suggest as we try to leave the past in the past and try to build a positive future for the division and something that the council can agree with something that we can work with and build sustainability that's that's what we're trying to do and that's our goal that's our goal with f way fifteen budget as well as the sixteen we're committed we're committed to doing whatever it takes and we just ask the same from counsel respectfully we listen to counsel's recent concerns and some of the things in the media but some of those concerns are valid about contract moneys potentially being available he was brought up with that in mind we invested a bit of time to provide this contract status report that should be in front of you today and i believe that's the eleven by seventeen document i know it's small font however we looked at every single contract we had in the  division we looked at prior year incumbrances current year we looked at the balance projections for the end of the fiscal year the ifas balance all those things are on that chart and lastly the end of your balance is that we projected further to the right in addition there is a repercussions of cutting those contracts just for councils awareness when choosing those options and choices of where we go from here basically it's limited two to really you know we allow the funding in the supplemental budget that we've provided to council and the suggested changes that were made with this revised supplemental budget we definitely need those two limited term positions at the outer landfills just to maintain safety in consistent landfill hours we would actually be able to fill those sooner rather than later because some of those positions were actually able to use existing staff to move up and then labor position or one that's a lower level position may be more readily available in the community but getting qualified operators difficult so that would reinstate the ability for us to decrease these closures that we've been having we've had forty of them in our landfill so far this year it's not what we want to do we don't believe that that's providing sustainable service to the community and it's not meeting our goals and measures that we gave council so  it's not something we want to do the funding source as mr miyamoto expressed earlier easier currents always division fun because of additional revenues therefore we recommend this this choice this option one of funding the supplemental budget the other option is and that's where we provide a discharge for council to look at is to potentially look at cutting some of these contracts for services in the operations program to make up the shortfall cutting those contracts only to remain cumber them in f y sixteen to me doesn't make fiscal sense if the money's coming from the same location if it's either coming from saw w fund or the general fund it makes no difference whether we continue with our efforts that we're doing now vs stopping them now and some of these are compliance related and we would rather not efforts in compliance areas but only to reinstate them or even cover that money in f y sixteen using the same funding source i'm not i'm not seeing the justification there but perhaps we can talk about that further but certainly when we stop efforts in compliance related projects we're doing a few different things one is if we've identified then as addressing some compliance concerns we have then that's that's in effect stopping efforts in areas that we shouldn't be stopping whether we have extra monies at the end of the fiscal year or not these are contracts and things that we should continue to address if we don't certainly we would be in an issue where if we stop contractors or consultants in their tracks and try to re for that money and for sixteen we may pay more for rain come bring that because we've stopped their work we've stopped their engineers or their contracts in the field yeah there are going to be potential damages there that we have to address but worse than that i think is the potential for increased risk of stopping identified and compliance concerns that is not recommended again by us to do that and if the money is coming from the same source again we don't feel option two is the best choice  for the community or the environment or or council because of that funding available that we do have that being said if that option is chosen or if no options are chosen that is more or less what we're we would be forced to do to start cutting those things to make it through the fiscal year we would respectfully wish for council view this chart and just note the contracts that they would see best for us to cut  or reduce knowing you know the repercussions that we put on there i know it's a little complicated but if you look at the far right under repercussions of distant cumbering contracts there you'll see these codes and those codes relate to things at the bottom of the chart whether it's related to a solid waste permit requirement clean air clean water branch compliance requirement or whether there might be safety infractions or risk of injury staff out in the field or for just terminations of convenience which a lot of people have talked about recently and the potential increased cost for doing that as well so we just cordially request counsel to look at those before making the choice to to cut those contracts knowing where the funding source is coming from so ultimately though it is councils choice we do which are decision we're willing to speak with only one on one that was and this is i don't recall i i don't recall which were present as compliance on projects but i think my recollection is compliance is the rationale used for just about anything in this department and possibly rightfully so very interesting situation i wish that i had had a little bit more time to take a look at what was handed out to us before i can really ask my questions oh wait if  have another opportunity members why don't you tell me know who would like a few moments to review the documents that the department presented this afternoon i'm happy to give you a short break so that you can prepare some the reason i asked the question is you know i don't want to put us into any kind of situation again with legal problems and fines and all that stuff to thank you for that question  respond yeah and i think i think you chair generally speaking this is by said there we have to review the specifics of the contract but typically there is some type of  penalty i would say for that sake of terminations because it is a contract so if it's anything ranging from ah it's like the stop work and having to them the mobil been my experience that every time we try to do any paperwork around here it takes a whole lot of time what kind of timetable are we looking at if we're going to do this because we need this settled from what i get it now amendment to the contract to reduce amounts that type of thing saw that can take anywhere from two to three weeks at a minimum and furthermore going into do it again it will depend on the specifics of the situation but might have to out rebid in everything and i don't take months so thank you very much i'm just trying to get a handle on you know what practical and possible subjects actually to some extent were the positions are one component of our supplemental budget and the financial part was the other portion as we had mentioned at the beginning of the fifteen budget deliberations some of these positions can be outsourced and some cannot engineering can be but our operators in our landfills cannot so that's why we've had these closures continuously since then because we want to be safe and complying as best we can at the landfills the fiscal component of it is higher and it's higher than what we initially asked for you know and higher than what was cut and we did our best to try to explain that to counsel in the outsourcing especially of engineering versus in house engineering is sometimes three or even four times the cost of in house staff so that's where there's some disparity of fiscal differences between what was cut and and what we're looking at now  that being said you know we've had supplemental budget request before council i believe two of the last three years obviously the division has had some challenges coping with a new philosophy of compliance and safety first then we're working through that and again we're not perfect there but we're getting better most assuredly now on the chart that was before you wish we had had more time to go over it in recess there but basically we went through and scoured every contract that we had in the division and that contract numbers on the far left and as you move across you'll see the vendor the description and then further to the right  you'll see what are and to separated expenses are between now and the end of the fiscal year and then what the current year available balance may be next column is whether or not council had proviso of that contract the ones that were proviso we did not assume were available just because it was council's intention to maintain those contracts and not allow usage of those monies in our operations budget so we didn't make any requests to cut any provisos that councils had made during the budget deliberations and then we have the next column overestimated remaining current year inc 're not available for use in f y sixteen until they're certified funds and that can take a good several months if not six months into a sixteen so unfortunately dissing cumbering these prior year expenditures which is more of a housekeeping effort that's why a number of these are relatively small numbers it's something we do every year you know whether you had a little extra money or not you dissin cumber what you can and fortunately that's not going to help us in f y sixteen that will be available we could come up with that we would have to address or council would have to at least take into account if recommending cancel the singing of any contracts and those codes you know it's a little complicated we couldn't think of any other way to display it other than that but it basically says you know whether or not it's a solid waste permit requirement clean air clean water branch requirement whether that's a safety infraction or risk of injury for our staff if we don't address that or as we talked about earlier whether it's if it's terminations for convenience or distant cumbering a contract in reestablishing that contract what those implications may be that mr we expressed earlier did you have any further questions oh yes the amounts you're looking  to get adjusted as an increases i'm just trying to figure out so you're going to you're looking to discern cumber are cut in order and if you don't get  money then how is there a plan b and this basically we have no plan b so we would be looking to counsel two to  and since the money is there you know we can do a better job at looking at our contracts as as mr white has expressed earlier we can do a better job at making sure that we don't have  contracts are things that could be be spent with operations money and we're working through that however at this point time you know i think our best plan is to use the funding that is in the subways fund it was additional revenue  that was above what we had projected at the beginning actually it was about a year and a half ago so things change the c n d revenue that we collected for a couple of weeks there gave us additional monies as well things of that nature kind of happen almost every year in and it's kind of outside of our control but that being said our plan before council is the supplemental budget fund it with the saudis fund monies not dissin come for the contracts especially if their contracts that coun is going to request remain cumbering next fiscal year anyway we didn't see the the benefit of shuffling that money if it is coming from the same source plan b would be up to council we provided this chart more or less for council to do you realize that you know we want to be completely open and stree with counsel as to what we've got on the books hopefully these numbers are close to what you guys have seen in  that's what we got our numbers from and we've added in water and to support expenses are but at the end of the day this chart kind of speaks for itself and we only offer up the repercussions too so that councils under understands that if we do this there may be different repercussions depending on the contract that's why there's different codes in that far right column there so you know we have a a plan a for you ok initially in the budget we requested for permanent positions and frankly i believe we're remain justified in that but in a limited term basis it can happen much quicker especially if we have in house staff that have the operator license in this case we have to operator positions if we have in our staff they can do that or somebody at those locations that can take those positions limited term positions can be filled in a matter of weeks couple of weeks even with promotion without exam we can do interviews that can happen pretty fast we used to be able to do and in one week it's basically like an emergency hire situation now if we do that from in house staff and that does leave a vacancy below that which we'd also do as l t but if that's a laborer or an attendant at that level much easier to find that type of skilled staff that can qualify for those positions even in these remote areas so that's why and we you know we went down this path to prepare for it so we feel confident ok the other big thing is that as you are painfully aware that this council doesn't like to add me thank you i would ask that if we go into the details of compliance issues we enter into executive session thank you ok i don't know chair if you're willing to entertain that but i really would be you know for me you know if if it's a general question about compliance and not about a specific issue or a specific project or what s mr we'll save that's a concern for us to be in a secular session if it's a general compliance yeah i believe that would be ok you can monitor the question thank you yes or ok well i guess you know we gave you some expansion positions in f y fifteen i believe we gave you a couple were you able to fill those one of those was a engineer position that required a reorganization to be done takes time to do that we process the paperwork provided to d p s as soon as we possibly could there's been progress on that reorganization has been signed off by managing director and we're actually very close to actually getting that position so we've done all we can do with opposition the other position that was  know i don't know the reason for that amount of delay done reorganizations in the past that it took much quicker i can answer that question for four other departments so i can just say that we've done all we can do to process that paperwork the other position that we had provided to us by counsel was han a landfill operator that position if you recall the documents we gave counsel on our priorities on a was further down the list we requested six positions i believe that might have been number five perhaps or six i don't know off top my head but operator was a more important and a higher priority for us so we went through the process to move that position from han to molokai that process is done and i believe we're in the process of getting the interview set up and filling up position so it took additional time to move that position wasn't what we wanted to do but we had to stick to the priorities and if we only had to that's what we did did you not get a central maui landfill attended i can't remember if we yeah we did actually and that was reallocated to an engineer position for us reason we did that was to address compliance concerns to try to grab the lowest hanging fruit we could with positions available to us again we need the six but if with only the two we did what we could with the two that is our management's right to do that so we reallocated up position and that reallocation is done progress has been made and i believe we've actually already started interviews on the process to fill up with the church i mean some of the thought that goes into why we prioritized the way we did for example why was the hon a attendant somehow get them there and it takes hours to get that much more much more difficult to support and so that's why we chose that molokai position is probably the one that we needed the most as far as in engineering we looked at our compliance and our challenges in that area and the division only has two engineers when you look at the amount of work that they have the compliance issues they have we've tried in past years to get environmental court environmental compliance person we had difficulty getting that so the engineer is being tasked with those types of things looking at all the permits what what are the requirements of the permits and so that's where we had placed the priority when we we need to change  mr chair they're asking for a couple more you know three more positions to fulfill comply its requirements and i would really like to know what those requirements are but staff i think they can keep it general chair and not get into the specifics i'm not sure how detailed of an explanation mr culture would like but generally speaking they can describe to you what these positions would be what the position would be doing such a question just what what the why the position what compliance issues are you as well as when i eat at this point in time we have no dedicated operator position there that can work every single day in a honda we have no dedicated operator at all we have a working supervisor position there that's supposed to manage and supervise the passivity and do some back up work permits were required to have a backup operator we don't even have a dedicated operator right now thankfully because the council's approval we do have one in molokai in short order now however we do not so from a compliance perspective it's more of a osha requirement in safety and why we've had some of these closures to address this lack of staffing is this in is in a nut shell basically at the working face we need an operator and we need a spotter somebody to watch the loads coming in making sure there's no hazardous materials making sure that the load is ok to don't to dump it it's a big problem for us if it's something that is inappropriate so the spotter an operator both needed i don't feel like on our line i e if i were working supervisor is the actual operator on the working face which we've had to do in the past and there's no spotter because we're lacking that one the staff because somebody's on vacation or on sick leave or extended leave of any kind at any time we don't have enough stuff at those two facilities so we need we need the dedicated operator position we actually had it in the past funding was cut and we've experienced like i said over forty closure just this fiscal year alone so far to try to  make sure that our staff not working on safely if we have an operator on the working phase in heavy equipment on the trash something happens to his equipment breaks down because a hydraulics tires whatever and he has to step off that equipment and walk through that working face he may step on glass sharp metal whatever so ok i understand so to be safe you need to spotter there as well and that's just something that we want to do so we don't have that available to us right now whenever  we're one stop short of the those two facilities so when that happens we cut all management supervision until solidities and we use our our supervisor there as an operator and we've been trying to get by like that prior to me transfer into the vision i think that's how it was but now it's just it's not acceptable from a management decision at this point so we have made management decision to cease that type of activity and make sure that whenever we have an operator on the work face we also have a spotter there as well so we've had to pull the guy from the scale how or wherever else close the gate at the landfill cece additional materials coming in so that we can at the end of the day have our two stuff available out there so that's basically the same for lanai he is a little differ in that we also collect refuse in one backup personnel to operate our equipment that's required in the landfill and we don't have that backup person now right now oh shiz also another major compliance area that is very much in line with this justification church and also you know when we only have one operator at these outer landfills if that person goes down then we have to bring somebody from to get over there to do to be operated previously when we were combined with public works we would always we had this exchange of funds with public works to try and get somebody out there to be an equipment operator so there was always that assistance within the departments that being the end that being terminated we now have to depend on ourselves and is the biggest pool of support that we have for our landfills and that's a challenge somebody is unavailable then we have to support them with them are we staff in some manner  mr follow up on that where does it say in the of our county rules or whatever that you couldn't borrow from public works i know there's issues with how you pay and whatnot but i would think you would you could still have that kind of an agreement on potentially even on a yeah look know if we need you can we borrow you and will deal with the funding later kind of thing you know money is the same county yeah i know it's a program budget in different departments but it's the same county right and we have done that in the past when we did do in a fun transfer from solid waste into the public works program and you know the challenges there are twofold for us one we get someone who may not be totally experiencing qualified on a landfill you know if you're driving that compactor on the subsurface the wrong way he could tip it so we need to have qualified and trained people so we would have to do some kind of like cross training like how fire department does with public works and public works assist with fire for public works aside having been on public works previously the challenge for them is that it's sort of like an emergency so whatever they have planned for that day and everything in their crew who is dependent upon that equipment operator if we were to requested that they then all of their other staff that was supposed to be on that project get put on hold and so that's the challenge that they've experience from their side let's say we're cleaning out a drainage ditch that then they're going to need five guys on the crew that the equipment operator is going to drive an equipment to do the clearing if we take that operator away then now they have to scramble to figure out what to do with the other four guys so that's been the challenge that they've experience also when we borrow people from them all those years your driver or working supervisor as well as your addition employees were operating the equipment there at the landfill is that correct yes they were the supervisor was acting as the supervisory personnel also transfer to well ok or as part of this fiscal fifteen you know the actual person there is the overall supervisor for our rural land feels like we have one person that molokai and so we had to put him in a budget so basically he's in that that index code but he doesn't physically really reside on the night because he is always visiting the other three two thousand field on the average smoker you have three employees in hama you have only one no no more we have four employees we have a cashier the working soup the attendant and the labor you know hannah we basically just have the working have you been in compliance for the last nine months and you're worried about your concern is meeting compliance to herat the last three months yes so as we said we prioritize molokai so we have a don't have a challenge supporting them for the working soup is parked up or working is the operator so his supervisor is now doing not only his job but he's doing their supervisory type jobs looking at close to sillett he's looking at other long term planning for those facilities so now we have a supervisor who isn't doing his job also because he's busy doing his subordinates job also but he still they remain in compliance because that's what the permit says but the challenge there is that supervisor isn't compliance isn't according to what your department of health meeting our department of health permits so that's a question is that meeting your department of health for me as you're aware of you've seen our permits and those permits are based upon how we told you each we're going to operate the landfill so if we vary from that we need to work with us then it becomes a challenge for us we also have osha requirements for safety for our employees  know the attendant watches outside of the equipment that the equipment operator does so that if something dangerous is there he can let the operator know the the labor is looking at the public taking care of the public so when they're in there many employees and this many supervisor a supervisor heavy equipment operator to meet your compliance because well i'm just thinking it all depends on your tonnage also per month per week these are the amount the tonnage only comes into effect when you start reading a critical level where you need more equipment because you can't complete all the necessary functions within that day for example when you look at heart when you compare honda and molokai being our larger volume of waste per day somewhere between ten and twenty ten and twenty tons per day were a summer like in honda it might be somewhere between five and ten regardless of the tonnage they're still certain requirements that they have to do they have to have an equipment operator you have to have a an attendant to make sure that equipment is operated or the materials are on and safely done the labor needs somebody needs to watch the residents because we're dumping on an active land active fees for a landfill so those three are definitely the bare minimum is somebody looking at this length of a long term future the answer is if you only three no that's why we had the working supervisor who looked at not only his close facilities but also the long term planning for these types of facilities how to make operational adjustments i mean we've looked at for example we talked about part being we've done we've done a lot more typing now to try and reduce costs these are all types of decisions that a landfill supervisor would be more in tune with rather than the guy that's driving the bulldozer packing the trash and putting the dirt on it but i'm go use mr white's comment when he was still with the fire department how much out of the box can you go because how much time does your heavy equipment operator is actually operating the equipment with the limited and then you have your redemption so that's completely separate and yet you know i keep hearing we need to be in compliance we need to be in compliance how much work i mean even here in central you have contract if i'm not mistaken with collecting the litter or the fit you know so when when you're saying within the next three months i've got to meet or  cover our number of employees we have our contracts to to meet and everything is to be in regular story implications  and then the concern i get when i hear your department say if not granted we reduce services so one point you're saying increase and another point there is like  either grant us this or we reduce services so that being said how many do you have from i would say you know on the higher management level that have all these oversight you know landfill section generally we have an operations superintendent who oversees all of the landfills then we have a rule landfill operation superintendent who oversees honolulu and i'm all ok and then it each facility there you have your management  working supervisor on down to the labor union to address your concern about you know is there enough work our challenge is the only way we can control when trash arrives at our landfill is by then always that we're open so if if we want to keep those guys one hundred percent busy we limit the hours everybody can be there and then they can only fit within that time window as we try to accommodate both commercial and private sector we try to open as long as we can but we have no control when they're going to bring us their trash so even in between loads but the guy on the operator he's always compacting if you been out there he's always compact think that he's got a compact that low to get get optimum density within that landfill to minimize how much air space we're wasting so he's got enough work to keep him busy thing he doesn't have enough time for is checking on our clothes landfills i mean we've had little control is also a big issue at the end of the closure you know we've had some windy days in the chair that litter blows everywhere and so we're closing early so that the guys can track down this later because that's part of the our deal which permit litter control we cannot have litter after the existing employees all people currently working in the department for the remainder of the year balances as of two twenty eight fourteen and two twenty eight fifteen and then the monthly expense and to mr miyamoto point you know the overtime obviously has to be included i believe i included the overtime in the three hundred sixty three thousand dollar number for the monthly expense but at this point in time our operations funds stand  one million three forty compared to a million sixty eight thousand last year and in the administration account we have three hundred eighty two thousand versus two hundred ten thousand dollars last year so that means that as of today we're four hundred forty four thousand dollars ahead of where we were last year or about thirty four point seven percent calculating the monthly expense of four hundred eighteen it shows that we've got a fifty thousand dollar buffer by the end of the fiscal year so obviously that's not a big buffer if we have rain events as miyamoto mentioned but i just wanted to confirm that because i think when we start talking mr chair about closing landfills and lane everybody off it's making it sound like we didn't budget enough money to cover our employees and i just want to make sure that the public understands that this is a challenge that has been created by over committing monies that are in this year's operating budget to contractors who are doing various compliance work as they've stated but this year this commitment goes way beyond fiscal year two thousand fifteen what that means is that as a state and there's about one point three million dollars that has been committed to contractors for work that's not going to be done this year but all the money comes out of this year's budget so my problem is i don't have a problem with them complying with everything i think you know obviously all of us want us to be in compliance my problem is that the way they have handled the contracting is putting our employees at risk and the way they've handled the contracting is put monies out of their reach for the use in this fiscal year to cover both employment expenses and operating expenses through the rest of the term and that's why they're coming back and asking us for these monies now and share my my concern has been that i don't believe we've gotten an honest budget for the last two years because previous budget to this one we were ahead of the budget and then the very next day they decided to announce a close all the recycling centers then they backed off of that but why didn't they provide us a budget and and tell us exactly what was going on then last year they provide us a budget once again  and we essentially gave them all but one hundred forty thousand dollars of the funds requested over ninety nine percent and then shortly thereafter they announced two before it came to a council for first reading then the house that they were going to they were going to only commit to six months of the contract year for the folks that are doing the recycling for the county and have been in many cases for over twenty years so as you recall we went back and after giving them a budget with all the money in one program so they could use the money in any way they felt we went back and we said ok we're going to use this much for operations this much for recycling and this much free and so again my concern is that i don't want the public to think we don't have the money to pay our employees because we do so if i look at this request other  dollars and the average of the last eight months under the current contract is fifty three hundred disposal prior nineteen months is at thirty seven thousand it's down to thirty two thousand of the last eight months ecosystems was two hundred nine thousand per month for the past twelve months and has been two thousand and six over the last seven months then to see if there was a jump  i looked at the last three billings and this the most recent three billions where there seem to be a little bit higher numbers and a lot of glass recycling has gone up from twenty thousand to twenty six thousand  disposal up from eleven one hundred twelve two hundred twenty three and ecosystems has gone up has gone down from six hundred five to six twenty nine so that the net result is we're actually down twenty eight thousand so i since income bring that money we've spent i believe around fifty nine thousand on the khyber herm i'm not sure what the other billions are for it's just says engineering for  landfill could be the same project but again this is a c i p project fifty nine thousand one hundred seventeen has been spent on the c f p project they have in november long after they told us they were running out of money income or another two hundred eighty thousand to move forward so if we take those two amounts and move them to the c i p object it's its money that is going to be available to the tune of about three hundred thousand dollars just for that one item and maybe in department can you help me understand the  c i p four central landfill improvements or is that a separate project deals with some nasty stuff coming out of the landfill the water that's touched whatever's in the landfill for the manhole has become deteriorated so the contract is to go ahead and look at how we can replace that because it's a relatively deep one how do you maintain something that you're pretty much always in operations you know so that's what pretty much the contract so is that but is that part of  don't consider that a c f p project because it's an existing facility i mean it's more of a repair and maintenance it's an operations i mean if it's like if you were to replace a motor on a pump with that yes the ideal would the bunch of the recycling contractors had their funds uncovered for just six months at a time so that's a practice that could be could have been applied to other contracts  yeah it can be applied to service type contracts whereas you know when you do other see ip type contracts consulting contracts that becomes more problematic because in the of the c i p the service contracts were pretty much contract you know their long term contracts to provide the service for the county depending upon the budget annual budget being approved so what we did was that you know six months if we run into a challenge in the last six months we've had the funding available to assist us into two funding the regulatory type work that we felt we needed to do it's also a contract for cornerstone environmental which was entered into in the last part of january for a two year period for six hundred forty thousand dollars so that could have been contracted differently  yes we probably we probably could've phase that into multiple year contracts that you know whether that might have their their cost implications whether or not you know when you do it multiple years then they may say well we don't know if you're going to cut the say students of the me modify their price schedule for it's but isn't it isn't it correct that you for a multi year contract you only have to encumber the first year think there's a lot of other requirements they go into a multi year contract but your car you have to have the funding for the first year and a reasonable assurance i believe the language in the h r s that the following years funding is available just just so that the folks that are not familiar with incumbents is going to understand what we do in government effectively puts money in escrow for the whatever that money is  this case six hundred forty thousand dollars goes into escrow and it sits there and we can't touch it for other expenses but the multi year contract allows us all the income for the first year obviously when you sign a contract you're responsible for paying it and i sign a contract on behalf of the company that i work for i'm committing to making those payments and i'm certainly not taking money out of my current account and stick it in an escrow hill what kind of work do they do for them this is a contract that looked to me like it was a multiple year contract looks like it was an addendum to extend is that correct and s so the the c h t m l contract that is for ground water monitoring and so we're part of that contract is the also evaluate our current system because we believe we may have on the we may have more wells that we need or may need more wells that we don't have at this point so that's part of their evaluation and then like i said the second part is to do the actual monitoring and sampling of those wells that's groundwater that's groundwater right correct and that it looked to me like that contract is an extension of work that they've been doing for if there's a a current of a current contract and we haven't gotten copies of the these two that were the monitoring part would be similar but we did like as i would we wanted to do an evaluation of whether or not we needed the wells that we did have out there but groundwater monitoring wells ok i should probably let others ask questions mr chair so i'll stop for a minute just you just in looking at the charts chart i kind of want to know when the dates of and terry enter into these contracts and the whole previous accounting just it just seems like it's a it's a web of different anomalies that are going on and i'm just trying to figure this out in terms of their using operating money for p and i don't know which contracts are c i p contracts and what which are service contracts for maintenance and operations and when were these contracts entered into it would be nice to know that those but under the c h p definition we're not building a structure at that location where we're doing remedial action of of prior inappropriate actions by putting waste in the conservation  area i'd have to go back and look to really see where you know if where we've by definition had money construction money you know see a p m where the design funds came from for that project i have to go back and look at  entities for me it's no no it already continues to erode the level of my confidence in the divisions in the departments talk about trusting who because on page six ninety four members there is a million dollar plus requests and whatever it is to sleep cheat research  p two which is one of the contracts on the document provided so why wouldn't this be part of the plane design from the c a p monies so we are definitely going to put a stop to whatever practice whoever says that it is baloney of using operational money for keppen improvement projects is going to in this budget session you  that won't be tolerated no thank you it's there's a lot of information i still don't feel comfortable after asking the question about the posit possible legal consequences cochran sure i share your frustration here i just just look you know up this whole list and then the repercussions section you have one item h for safety infraction and risk of injury and death yet none of these pertain to that potential repercussion but you listed it so just wondering why it's even listed if none of your contracts per se if not carried through is going to relate to such a potential risk just department thought it was odd mean ok yeah it was an oversight we initially had positions on the l t s on this chart we took those off to just have contracts only so that was related to positions that we needed out to our landfills rather than contracts per se here and the church members that the visit was kind enough to put forth for you information today just for those that may not be aware of the second column says index subject code normally and they said normally if it starts with the number nine in the front of it one is normally the indicated that it is operational so if you look at it it's all basically operational funds something has come up that affects my district for sure and that's the cancellation of the three can plan which was funded completely through the end of the year so if you've canceled the three can plan what happened to that funding i guess you're assuming that if the supplemental budget wasn't funded by the saw waste fund and contracts were cut i guess we would look to in the ordinance and proviso number four right at three point four million shall be for solid waste alternative programs and that the be maintained so you're saying that that's not really three can plan correct that three camp plan was not proviso by council ok so you moved right so we canceled it and but it was fully funded was it not through through june of this year fully funded in the amount that we had put in the budget still subsidised sure but yes so since you cancelled it i think it was february first you have four months funding that you had allocated for three can plan or did that go well check exactly how much savings that was i don't think it was a significant amount but bear with us for something ok because i know that plan is in our area and our my constituents are a bit miffed that it got cancelled when it was supposedly fully funded so i had to do with an evaluation the county had done big picture a valuation of the cost of three camp plan versus other recycling alternatives  i believe the current year billable balance looks to be about eight thousand three hundred dollars but we can confirm that so it sounds like you saved eight thousand dollars for cutting it off four months early i mean  yeah correct ok thank you probably actually save a fair bit more than that because of the additional subsidy that it does cost to run that program in addition to what the funding was for that line item ok thank you and come to this committee regarding the monies risk of  two many more questions except for the fact that you make mention which in this chart again i have to go back that if not granted if the additional funding reduced services the include hi management or is it just see our workforce not that your managers are not workforce but your partner i'm sorry can you this is just your oh does reducing services include higher level management i mean most of the service contracts that we have you know operations if they're contracted out to subcontractors or general contractors out for the savings is going to be oh you're referring to contractors not necessarily and he said yeah i guess i misunderstood the question and say well ok what we were saying gives when you reduce services we reduce the man hours the open always of our lanfear that are open to the public so generally rather than pay the guys over time to do litter control or what you've seen is we've had forty early land closures so that we can do the litter control so generally we're not looking to to really cut the hours of our staff but rather cut the services that we serve that we provide to the public like we've done we've been we've done over forty times this past year so far this year reduced the cyrus's that we provide the public that we have adequate time for staff to do the required type things like pick up litter and make sure everything's covered the landfill is covered and packed it thank you  the first the first six contracts listed are some of the ones that we've discussed already and again you know my point is you know i expect the department to act on behalf of the taxpayer and just as much as as we do and for me this is all about working within the budget you've been given and to have a arrive at this point to find out that they have encumbered one point seven million dollars more than they had last year that that waves a red flag that maybe we're maybe were able to do things differently so that we're not putting services and employees at risk and reducing services to our taxpayers this is the first six contracts have been entered into since receipt of the budget amendment so they already knew that they were running out of money had they contracted these differently they could have they could have harvested over a million dollars except except for the  sixth contract which is a convenient center that was proviso and so that would require them to come back to council so that would reduce that to eight hundred seventy thousand the next two contracts are ones entered into since the decision to reduce pick up and landfill ours and of course this list is not as extensive as theirs because i just cherry pick the the larger numbers being switched to c a p would harvest another two hundred eighty thousand and possibly more if he reclassified the amounts spent on the makai berm already refrigerant recycling  contract is a one year contract and it looks like you know had we only encumbered what was necessary through the no looks like we're going to have that much left over by the end of this fiscal year so the total in total of two thousand and fifteen funds made unavailable due to over incumbent of contracts  is one point four six or one point two six depending on whether you include the convenient center or not in the the bottom section is accounts with no activity for the last nine to these funds if the funds in the other recycling area were not sufficient to get to the end of the year but those are funds that that are available so if you add all of that up it's one point six million or one point four six million if you take out the convention convenience center so again i'm not happy because i think we've we've ha them more than enough money by a considerable measure and had they contracted responsibly because they've known since they cut services in august if known since then that this is the least they have suggested since then that we're running out of money i don't believe we were i don't believe we're under budgeted them i think they could have made the contracting work for them sort of working against them and for me i'd like to start the two thousand and sixteen budget with a clean slate but for me this is this is a real problem to approve just because of all that we went through during the fall and all that we've been told and all the threats to the community that they're going to close the landfill lay everybody off and i also chair i understand the concern that there may be some legal situations i honestly don't feel there would be any legal problem if we were to go to these contractors and say you know we'd like to adjust the contract to fit our financial needs just for now so we can pay our bills because we overextended ourselves i don't think any one of these contractors would have a problem if you say we're going to continue this and  and we'll just have a little break in the incumbrance that's just me thank you well maybe we can have the department of management do a little bit more managing chair i don't want to dilute mr white's presentation and thank you very much for producing a chart and these are the questions that i had asked previously the dates the terms and he must have been reading my mind because office on this thing popped up so a very good idea it's it's probably is not a full reflection of all of the potential  availability of funds or if we went through the entire chart that the was produced by the department in this fashion that mr white has produced we might have even please thank you chair it would get really technical and i'd have to look at each individual contract then read it i am not familiar with them off the top of my head  but so i can't give you a specific answer but there may be repercussions and there are may not be if they're willing to negotiate with us but as i mentioned with your original question it will take pine regardless of whether or not there's any financial penalty or anything but it will take time thank you thank you to thank you mr cochran shirt not a question but just an agreement was made that we continue services and that all we needed to do was supplement a but do a supplemental budget amendment and that you know that would handle our challenges unfortunately we're here today and it's  for different day so these contracts were initiated with the assertion that from the summer time frame when we were told to continue on as is the supplemental budget would be the one that would resolve those issues so i can't argue with the date i can argue with the contract amount and all i can say is explain why we kept going when we when we did we were told we were instructed to do so so we can say oh by the m department's behalf or whatever just sort of take a look at how this is practices and perhaps change you know in the future and i and i understand it's not going to take just your decision as the department but as you said your boss  the mayor too so just on record if you see that there is potential for better usage of the monies versus this practice of over her say in cumbrian it in for the department of very difficult situation as we were put between an agreement that was made and what we felt was appropriately to as member whites as managed properly and not spend what we don't have  we really challenge this past year to to do that and you know since december we had submitted our supplemental budget we were wondering when it was going to be heard here we are april it's being heard and that's why we had to look where we could save the funding the monies were in the monies and we met with our corporation calls that we have some some challenges with some of the contracts that we have in that they're looking to stave off some some potential noncompliance issues down the road so we're really challenging that aspect of it i mean had that agreement not been in place possibly wouldn't be here today to be on if your department but your view is a goat thank you just as a follow up to my other question i don't know if you said you were going to get the information but i would like information of you know the actual versus budgeted amount for the three campaigning because that's could or could not be a large amount of money i have to be honest i'd have to really go back i guess it just confuses me mr chair that that they're able to stop that contract without repercussions or apparent repercussions but others they can't so i  guess that's where the confusion  question do you have enough money to meet payroll drain from that program overall program so it's you know if we have to pay the employees we have to find the funds within the program to do it whether it's a account b account you  so if it's just your regular time will you be able to provide your services and meet other payroll requirements or i mean even if you reduce services they're on the operations and to in order to make that the payroll piece of if i seize so you would have to go to the process of this encumbering contracts to meet payrolls for your existing employees yes while it's a different answer from the earlier and so yeah so which is the right answer you see services as adding yar payroll this is the money that we're asking for is an operational program not the administrative program because of the savings and ministration they have more than enough money to cover payroll i think that's you know and i don't like this saying we don't have enough money the only reason we don't have enough money is because they've over contracted they've over committed one point three million dollars into future fiscal years i don't know why we have such a hard time with the math here they're taking the money out of our employees pockets essentially by over contracting  committing to outside contractors and they have more than enough money to cover the employment costs except then mr mina moto said if there is an unusual an unusually high amount of overtime the you know the monthly expense that i put on my spreadsheet is the monthly expenses over the past the first eight months that includes overtime of about four hundred thousand dollars so they have the money in the payroll accounts to cover all of our employees and they can move it around any way they like just like they moved one point three or more out of our reach because encumbered  o i think i need to ask the question if you if you simply postponed engineering services for a central maui landfill about one hundred five and  postpone for three months the replacement of the tank and pumps and phase for a well i went well and postponed the professional services or a contract services for recycling tonnages actually the money is i think the money is clearly there for those so i don't really see if we can postpone three little projects that they're asking for money for they're saying we have money for everything else so why do we need this budget amendment the first place that way we don't have to come or any projects and if we need to cover some of them we can move roughly three hundred fifty thousand dollars from operations to the heart of landfill berm project and postpone is there any are there any contracts that are on my list that you feel or on your list that you know given your contract dates and everything i can only apologize we were just you know we're dependent upon an agreement that was there so we continued on as we felt necessary for addressing our compliance certainly there in our chart we've identified a lot of the contracts with funds that are available and if you look at the  this identified as estimated remaining current year income or incumbrance that identifies several contracts that that you know if you look at the column two columns over we say we need this much more to get through the year if that would leave this much we could in cumber of the current year contract so we've identified that in that spreadsheet we look for guidance as to which ones you know we have  qualcomm on the right one of the implications of of this incoming a lot of those funds but we've also identified that we need x amount of funds to complete the year so that we the contract is still working through the year through this budget year and then when the new funding comes vailable we go through the process of of refunding the contract you know as mr wilcox pointed out it depends on what the contract says whether we can we have to terminate or we  had able to do an amendment to but that would have to come after this but this council goes through the two thousand and sixteen budget simply because until and this is the month we cut is put in the sixteen budget we're not going to have that money in the sixteen budget to continue on those contracts ok so are you saying that the year numbers include us spending the full one hundred five thousand on professional services in the top of your list hundred five thousand and official services hundred fifty thousand a contract services twenty five on contract services hundred twenty and can you can you postpone i don't know that i got an answer to my question within these four projects can be a pro s share yeah i'm trying to compare your list with our lists for example in contract fifty six fifty i'm sorry i'm just looking at your list well i'm sorry i'm looking at your budget amendment summary and while you're looking for a list one of the things that you mentioned was you hired an engineer because the landfill operator wasn't as critical and you've so does that mean that the one that you hired can do this consulting work to develop specifications and bid services and construction management you keep telling us that you need it you need engineers to do that for you programs and long term planning for operations c m l a central model and fill so that position actually was reallocated reorganization and now we're in a process of hiring that position but it wasn't an operator it was  landfill attendant for central valley and it wasn't targeted to do say p or major operations design or plans and specs of the nature ok but is it possible to postpone that hundred five thousand dollar expense till july first yeah i think we could do that knowing the potential repercussions of the delay any of these delays that we're talking about whether they're in contracts or positions further open us up to potential concerns that we've identified in the char under the contracts as well as in the response to the budget and finance committee and we believe i believe it was march six we submitted a breakdown of all the positions that we needed and that might help answer misc ravel's questions earlier as well but i think that's the day that we provided that response the hundred fifty thousand of you already spent so i think we did a a later time when we ran the report but we're at thirty seven thousand or thereabouts and we anticipating getting progress payments adding up to about another forty three thousand ok so we've already got ninety four thousand of that set aside you've already covered that right so you only need fifty five for that if you look at the index code for that item one fifty one hundred fifty thousand and you look at the chart that we provided you see that that index code of nine one thousand five hundred nine also supports several other contracts and we're using those condos funds to support other contracts that we have in on this list i understand that but i am asking how much of the hundred fifty thousand of you spent thus far because it's it's ended up showing up on both lists right because you've got contracts that you've started that seem to be included in part of this total you've already started spending the money  y fifteen that's the it's titled so much more landfill improvements so that was the million fifty thousand so there was three different projects all  and the hundred twenty eight thousand for existing contracts for recycling i believe the money is is there so  well members additional questions to border regarding the franco i had them on the agenda for today which is b f twenty three regarding and the amendment for the fiscal two thousand and fifteen budget department of environmental management this is this more ways to skin the cat so i will give the department the hint because i shouldn't be the one coming up with the answer but i'm tired of this issue and to you is source of were ready for that decision this evening so that's where i am i think the department can investigate a couple of other options of getting this done internally because again missed their chair at this time i don't know what contract stowed this income i don't know if they're going to descend come or any contracts but we definitely would advise the department when they make that decision