entity not a part of canaan presbyterian church the church and not subject to the authority of the presbyterian church anything three articles of incorporation specify a board of directors under the only noise not for profit corporation off a board of directors manages the affairs of the corporation barca's the corporation don't surely it was incorporated for the purpose of religious exercise under the constitution for the presbyterian church nineteen seventy seven about a year after the church congregation listed that's what purpose is the what is the purpose was the articles of incorporation principles the activity of free choice corporation holy religious exercise in other words engaging in or supporting the practice or expression worship of religion based on certain principles but of the principles of the presbyterian church the corporation could not have intended affiliated with what was really a non existant church that point the independent church was not part of  has a protestant religious denomination part of its constitution is the book of order which contains rules for government worship and discipline a member local  is a congregation which has been constituted and organizes the church and accepted into the cus it has what is called a particular church the book of order requires that a particular church when permitted by civil law shall cause a corporation to be formed and maintain to function steps must be taken because a corporation to be formed under the appropriate laws of the state the broken border describes certain interconnections which must formation by a particular church commonality of membership the members of the church must be members of the corporation commonality of government either the session church must be the board of directors of the corporation or there must be an election procedure where the members of the church nominate the  persons to be directors of the corporation and finally the provision of certain powers which are how wide in seven point zero four zero two of the book of order that the corporation should exercise with respect to the church subject to p c usa subject to the authority of the session and it's apparent from from those requirements what what the purposes because at the same time as the oath of p c usa imposes these prescriptions for a corporation be subject it recognizes that what a particular church forms a corporation the congregation does not become in for free but forms a corporation in a particular church and the corporation  is what is the point is that a corporation bed has some activity connected with a church or engages in support that has  here of course is subject to the authority he sees us the session of the particular church is subject seven year later and all we have in the record is that it was formed by foreign corporate but we have nothing beyond that as to well if the church existed before the true does that mean anything but that's not me it doesn't mean anything because of the requirements of p c us a prescription so i understand the recognizes corporation is a separate entity governed by its board of directors the church is a separate entity governed by its session but with those interconnection behalf of them as individuals i don't believe that's correct and it certainly was my intention here they say there was a dispute as to who could not believe that you know you don't believe that remove pastor reading from the property of the church because he had been removed from his past but the property was a home by the corporation a church that known as the corporation on the advisory committee who is now acting as the session authority for this church and for this cooperation did it become apparent that maybe you were in a position of conflict what what was apparent from the beginning was that there was a tough there was a dispute in the church but not in the corporation that there were two factions in the church those the support  are the corporations engaged there was no no reason to find this think that the corporation was of a corporation and in terms of the legal relationships involved it was apparent to me that the corporation was not the church it was a separate legal entity there were no interconnections with the church or with p he owned the property it had the complete legal right to control the property and whether because it was supporting a church it was prudent perhaps not in control of the corporation the churches is managed by a session it's an internal body which is recognised by p c usa as a governing body within the church because of the conflict within the church the presbytery of which has it is next in the hierarchy above the session of the presbyterian overseeing the church removed the session and pointed this administrative commission as you mention to act as the session head that administrative commission in the course of acting removed so that was that was the way the case came into court and in trying to do that exercise that sort of control over the property  was owned by the corporation the corporation felt it had to oppose that it couldn't while an outside agency to exert control over the corporation property and and by doing so over the corporation so after so i was engaged to represent the corporation's interests because as far as the corporation was  they have prevented the corporation from representing itself by asserting to the trial court that they can act for the court well if the people resolve the whole thing well of course client asked me to sign an agreement that was simply a ministerial act my client oh a corporation of five directors who act for that corporation signed bat as the directors of the sovereign if you will of p c well it could be said but i think i would counter that by saying that if that were the case there would be no need to have the directors sign the d if in fact the oath of the session or the administrative commission acting as the session acted for the corporation it could simply take various actions but it it didn't and threw out that agreement and i guess i church was affected by this it was represented by the administrative commissions first presbytery administered a commission later the senate ministry commission they were the ones who pursued the constitution of the church controlled church activities and had the t getting to the authority first of all getting to the authority and the right trial court to determine who speaks for the church can presbyterian church exercise religion and put it under the constitution of the church he has to show the church the book award provides that the corporations want to maintain its subject the constitution and subject to session session be stepped in when it was justified to resolve a property dispute the property dispute really was more than just who's the past as i think the facts where they indicate constitution savitri if you will of the constitution of the church over pastors over pop over the church itself but well let's not let's let's look at stat and that was a have all subject to the constitution pressed church usa and it's to say it's our position that that is absolutely appropriate and it should have been done in that case and the same is no reasonable person who signed sudden agreement or participated in that litigation would say oh wait this is freshman against me because now the corporation who i oppose in the underlying lead nation isn't going to be paying me  well you know this is dispute powerset yeah well of so the way he the constitution is set up my understanding is that any dispute allows the higher authorities see that the session sanat to step in and take control of there is a congregation and there is a corporation to that holds of property the reason why the i believe the census not your question if it doesn't please go ahead and stop me the reason why you create and maintain corporation to hold the property on behalf of the church but the corporation and gratian are the church together they are the church and so what the what the constitution's and doctrine say the book of order says benefit of a dispute there are provisions in place for the session for the senate to step in and sit ministry of commission and take over the church and that means all the corporation and the congregation the church that we're talking about the physical struc dispute to who to the i believe it's the session and then the senate which is above the session i have the hierarchy correct and they did use it did they not correctly at the administrative commission stepped  to take control of the church which ultimately when they transferred to the midwest in the the hierarchy is sort of the p c usa which is a nationwide governing body divided into sin it's divided into  administrative commission file that was its it used the name of the corporation but it was the administrative commission that filed that was and  that representing very corporations or the directors of a corporation as defendants was opposing the corporation as a player a corporation was not the plaintiff at all the administrative commission was a pl and as far as you want to see it right here is your question was what was its relationship to the corporation my answer is it had no really touches to the corporation the purpose of the administrative commission was to attempt to appointment of and that's why it was there and its whole approach to restoring unity was to try to remove the past to read and some of the elders of the church that it was also the only overturn because it was wrong it was proper and it went all the way up to the general assembly of the church and it was overturned and then came back and that's that was  reinstated that occurred in conjunction with the s they the liberal the answer to the little question is no because its actions were overturned because they were not in conformity with because to show but the  doesn't not subject to cost the corporation is it in no way subject to the constitution it doesn't purport to be and the second point i wanted to make is that under p c usas own rule particular church subsequent to that recognition they did nothing to establish a court of peace usa type corporation they did not change or modify the existing corporation so p c usa would have no i please yes equal authority over there for perth because recognising as the session let's say there's a p c usa corporation connected with the a particular church and the particular church represented the corporation and the directors of the corporation at the request of the engagement of the corporation and its director with respect to various corporate matters and in the should have been brought is the administrative commission versus the corporation because that's where the property control issue would be resolved but instead this administrati commission that had already only over the church brought this action to assert control over property owned by the corporation well that's only if we in that in the twenty zero seven decision now that it's any authority for what happened here except at the court low stated that it was going to make findings in accordance with the allied first of all p c usa lied to judge you have seen and there pleadings on a motion to dismiss all of which occurred before i have a case and told judge you have seen that the church was a member and affiliate of usa with respect to the exercise of certain powers that are designated in section seven point zero four zero two of the book of war in order to have that authority  the members of the church have to be the members of the corporation and the governance of the church has to be the governance of a corporation otherwise the corporation it is is simply an your point on and on on were trying to figure out whether or not this corporation was subject to the constitution of p c usa at the time that you allegedly were engaged to represent if the answer to their question is it worth subject you lose if the answer that question is they want subject you win that's all this case of out you are throwing in all sorts of fa has no affiliation no connection no submission no relationship with p c usa or even with the church the  over a corporation that's formed as we prescribe here with respect to that corporations exercise certain power whatever that was in existence a was changed when i was hired by the corporation and twenty i was seven well the corporation where the church moved from the chicago pres signatures of all of the cover making this petition asking to be constituted as a church and the book of border states specific i