i'd like to start with the issue of the restructuring of input entries in the select us and i think the main point here is that there is much more than a genuine issue of material fact on the record if this court affirms the district court's grant of summary judgment it will be on a record in which the defendants have admitted that their q system grabs critical identification codes from the source code of input entries and restructures those critical identification codes into selectable hyperlinks that are displayed on a mobile device just sort of come down to my level maybe you can answer this inquiry which are in about the excellent question or this whole argument about hidden data is a complete red herring and i'll tell you why input gantries as displayed on a and online  site we're talking about a site that appears on a computer as opposed to a mobile device all of the input entries are defined by source code x h t m l source code that is hidden from the user so what you see what you see on the screen is the name of a payee like eric bookbinder and you see a payment box a date box and a submit button now if you take a look at just as an  that is the source code for one set of input entries on the guy online mobile banking site and it's jibberish somebody i mean talk about bring it down to our level judge  somebody like us who's not next h t m l programmer can't make heads or tails of that source code and why is that if doesn't even appear on to the website when we go to pay our bills and we want to do that do a bil famous expert dr patel in his declaration and this is at thirty seven eighty two to eighty three of the record correctly explained how the input entries are defined in source code they defined by form x that's form in the in the carrots and that's the expats team out pack which defines where all the input entries are going to be so if you look on the web page top of the form tag at the bottom now he has he then came back and said you misunderstood his declaration the judge made a specific finding in his opinion that you miss characterized as decoration so what if if if we agree with the judge on that point what other evidence do you have to support your your argument well judge malley the judge is dead wrong he absolutely testified that the way you define input in trees in understand here i mean you've consistently ignored the fact that that the tao came back and explained exactly what he meant and explained why your interpretation of it was wrong what's your response to that because you've never really responded to that it's a completely self serving explanation he hears why judge a mile if you look at itself serving because it says you're wrong yeah are right you know you described a response to my question that this hidden hidden stuff is a red herring yeah but that's what dr patel testified to he says hidden values could not be considered input entries because they were not displayed and therefore were not capable of having information and turned into them why is that wrong but that's my point that's point i've been making all of that source code not just the hidden entries all of the source code attached as exhibit m to dr chatter g supplemental that the ratio is jibberish all of it is hit not just the hidden input tax and here's the other point that i was about to make to judge o'malley if you look at pics thirty seven eighty three of the record this is dr patel's declaration up at line seven through nine what he says after discussing all of the code and the input patterns within the form tags and he says after the user makes him put entries into the page they typically hit a submit button and the information in all the input entries is packaged together and transmitted to the web server for further processing this this i think really makes my point which is all of that jibberish all of that source code about input tags whether they are hidden or not all of it is hidden to the user but once the user decides ok the submit button all of the information is submitted to the server when they hit the submit button so i think this really shows that this whole hidden input in tree issue is a complete red herring all of the source code is hit and the fact the fact of the matter is defendants have admitted and the record is very clear in their brief and also i've submitted a lot of evidence that their system searches on the internet banking site in the source code for specific identifying codes for those input  grabs those codes and restructures them and puts those codes right into the source code for a link which then is displayed on a mobile device so when you see a link that says eric weiner you want to click that to make a payment their mind or on your mobile phone the source code for that link which again is hidden to us as lay people who aren't at h t m l programmers or whatever if you hit that link then the code behind that link actually has codes that their system they have met hold out of the source code on the online banking site and put right into the  link to make it appear on your mobile device so that when you click it then you get a payment page where you can make a payment want to spend a few of your last minutes on the other if you look language and you need to be a lot of input and trees and the and he says that rightness declaration says that the source code associated with input entries is defined by form tax so it's the source code in the form tax that every single one of those is a separate and put into all of that yes or no your theory well they all work together for the input entries for that for i mean that was my point with the submit button he said and he's right when you hit the submit button all all of the information for all of the input entries within that form is packaged together and submitted to the server for the process and say let's move on to the other ok just want to make the point that in column eight and i discussed this in my in my briefing starting at line seventeen and going through line fifty four it talks about this very thing that in  to restructure an input entry you have to extract coding and it says this that lines thirty six to thirty nine call and make the link on the mobile device which the request was generated  request we generated includes code to enable the conversion engine to recognize the link as corresponding to a particular input entry so the only way your honour's you can restructure an input  into a selectable link on a mobile device is to grab the identifying codes associated with the source code for that input and three which is in a form take those special identifying codes and put them in a select have to have a convergent engine to take content in x h t m l on the online banking site and convert it so that it will display on a mobile device but it doesn't matter currently programs that that those seats could ever be used well let's start by the user that the the whole system is set up with the  this is really you know i think my point is made by the french and silicon graphics cases which say that for an apparatus claiming the this is a system plane this is a structural claim this is not a method like these or reprogramming and you're saying that no reprogramming was necessary like the testimony that the defendants put in saying that in order to do that there had to be reprogrammed you say is just not true well let me just make this one point about what the that different from h t m l he said yes so not only your honour's do we have source code which allows output in languages other than h t m l we have a witness confirming that if you run this w m tells us what some things that are in point entries like text boxes menus things of that nature there are things that are displayed and there are things that a user can interact with on the page we also know that whatever an in link was allowed to be displayed per page selectable links are not input in trees the same thing is true of hidden valley and this was clearly addressed in dr patel's reply declaration in which he said that h t m l had things like variables like hidden input in trees and more than one of those things could be displayed per page now i want to address council statement that source code is all hidden  that is certainly true that there is source code that sits behind an h t m l and h t m l page that is displayed in a browser but there are some features in that source code that result in things being displayed and there are some features that don't and so for talking about something like a text box there is source code that sits in behind the page at the browser reads but we see a feature that corresponds to that source code on the page and that's the actual box and what's going on here is counsel is a lighting things that clearly are and put into use these boxes for example and things that are not so for example the source code has plain text in it that will appear between the form tags that he's talked about and there's just no question that text is not an input entry and i also want to clarify council said dr patel in his declaration at eighty three seventy eight to set everything between the one tagged as an input in tree and that's just not the case if you look at one seven hundred eighteen he said input entries appear within a within four attacks you did not say and never said everything in the form tag is an input entry so you saw the example that council gave erik buck binder there's a couple of boxes there some other tax there's a pay button there's certain things there that are input interest the text boxes and under some some things that are input injuries and those in the form and there are some things that are not and what in shift is pointing to are things that are not input entries all of the data values that they say are taken come from things that are not input in trees and that is not what's being restructured i'd say you're saying that the did data value that that you're taking in searching in your allegedly imprinted device is is data value that doesn't include the  is a inputting equal type equals hidden and then there is a data variable called in pay id that data variable is something that the system obtains but it's something that's within and hidden tag it's not within a attributes what we're talking about are values that are static values that are already filled in that the user cannot interact with that are displaying to the user and that's literally like the text that you would have put into the text box the input feature that's the input type people's hidden i not something that the that the d i m a him in the site is concerned with and really what's going on the code here is they're providing directions they're saying go look for a form tag and then go look for this input hidden tag and next to it you're going to find the data variable that you want and that's really how the code is working and it has not it's not concerned with taking those input tanks and replacing them with links all it's concerned with is figure out how to find that particular piece of data  that they want to use in their in their own site their own separate site and using that data more for creating the pages that they have right now can we move on to the other issue because that the court the lower court basically said that that unless that there is evidence that you actually use the stylesheets that there can be no infringement but that's not really exactly the law is  it well with respect to this kind of claim i think that is the law so that it has to be present here is an indirect infringement three we don't make phones those those bonds are made by obviously others they're used by users who are the ones who initiate the request so if you're looking for what you really have to be proceeding on it has to be an indirect infringement there and so there needs to be someone who's putting the system into use into beneficial years and all of the evidence but the law is is that this is tim has to be capable of being put into beneficial you so so requiring them to show that it had actually been used is not the law i mean i think we have both front it exists is not capable of being used in the way that's being suggested the testimony is that there are these legacy sheets that were in executable code in fact that our clients don't even know about but the testimony is that all of the style sheets that are used in the system appear in a single directory and these are not style sheets that are in that directory what in ship has never pointed to is any source code that's going to call these these legacy style sheets in fact it's not surprising that it's not there because we didn't know about them but is there coding that actually prevents the stylesheets from being used well there's no coding that allows it so it is where do you where in the record do you point to testimony that says that you have to have of evidence that suggests they talk about the method output for example equals x amount we actually looked at the source code our expert did dr patel we looked at that source code to see what you end up with and you end up with h expert under the same analysis concluded that our pages were in korean and clearly were not in korea and they're in english so there's something wrong with the analysis that's being done by their expert to reach these conclusions that the it would i submit it wouldn't work because there's no code in the system that calls that the w m l is and that's you the lawyer saying this but you never had anybody saying that it was their burden and summary judgment to come forward with evidence and what we've done is record that if someone has that phone that speaks that language they could use our system and the only evidence and in fact the evidence they used in their infringement contentions with someone using an i phone with an h their own expert saying strictly american differences i submit if you are correctly punctuating that doesn't mean you're speaking a different language from the person who is not correctly  something that appears on a page that the code for that is open carriage input type equals text clothes character etc again this is jibberish this is hidden to all of us non programmers what is displa the page is a box you can type in what is very clear is if you don't grab the codes in the source code the identifying codes that assume that are associated with a particular pay associated with that box if you type a money amount into that box without those codes that the payment will not go to the right person so what you really have to do is you have to go into the source code on the website and you have to take the i the id code for that particular payee and take that and put it in a selectable link and that's exactly what they do and in yemen in column eight at line thirty secs it says the link on which the request was generated includes code to enable conversion engine to recognize the link on the mobile device as corresponding to a particular m p input entry on the network site that's what you have to graph it's like the car analogy that i had in my reply brief i mean what's displayed on the page there is a car with boxes in it you can put payments map amount payment dates what are you going to restructure you're going to take the mpeg i'll be image file of the car and restructure that no that's not going to work what you have to do is take something that's analogous to in the number for the car which identifies exactly whose car that is which bill payee it corresponds to and put that in a selectable link because then payment will go to the right person otherwise it's not going to work and again i would just remind the court that we are here on an appeal from summary judgment and we submitted a huge amount of evidence and to to say that it had no reasonable jury could find in our favor i think strange reason so i would submit and counsel i think you case the