problems in the transportation department well well documented record there was no showing the kids were were in any danger there's no showing that students were missing instruction because the best slater food service is patient the obviously it's regulated by the states or very statutes and by the courts on you know an employer can legally explore some contracting out but that's not the case here on here we have fourteen eight three this was a cancerous action committed to me it was an ill motive in retaliation for choosing yes me a strong state of feeling gated union and leaving this set forth its reasons and it had the entire record and district has its facts and the yes me has it's the it's the boards that they look at this and that's that's their expertise that's with their the legislat case and so contracting it you know it's done all the time the board generally never sees it vast majority of cases you know there's no charges i'm so the boards have involved in that it's only when so these exist together the fact that the school code allows this and it has an elaborate scheme that the school district has to follow those not mean that once they follow they at all or if they go along they find good reasons for doing this that you know they got you have to you know they do not have to meet their obligations their duties their legal duties under the labor act and that's what what happened here and they didn't show that i'm it's not just timing you can strip out an strong and none of the other employees it's just them there he has this he has been an ongoing issues and you know there's been various there's various testimony about you know what was done about it what was not done and there was worse over the years did it get worse i think there were there were various problems and the school days to school districts you know expanded and you know so they didn't hear of other probably you know you have tensions you have things that you need to work out but none of this is a big surprise all of a sudden now you have there must be some egg or a fading factor here that now after s p n after you know we sat down for you know a bargain and you know it's november nobody denied that they didn't have problems the question is are you going to have legitimate concerns but what is the impetus here for contracting out if you're you decide to contract out for low that even though you have legitimate concerns you have to show there you know it i guess council where i am is i'm not really convinced that it was shown that there many reasons that there was you know anti union animistic other than this timing issue they got out for me i mean well what shows that they did this to retaliate for this decision to go with asked me i just i'm having trouble seeing that they they did it they should get reasons shifted as they went along that they were telling me it's it's you know we have these operational problems which say oh well you know we're going to save all this money should they have known that before they got to be whether or not they should have known that that's not really worth it because if you're if you're doing something illegal i mean if you're doing this for an illegal reason and then later you get something that says i hope this is a good idea everybody's going to like that that doesn't negate your your improper motive in the beginning  if if instead of these these employees work you might have a unit of plus i'm sorry let me interrupt you so that's let me ask you this question are you saying any time a decision is made to go with a different representative by you know on the part of the union workers they decide to be represented by someone else and we should assume that any action taken by the board is in retaliation for the enemy what is the group that that was we tally ation that they were punishing them for going with them no you wouldn't you would never do that these a them then you would say that's not it what's your you do have other things to support that and if you want to pull everything out and not see everything so you know yes yes i know as a it's you know here's the world that we're living in which same you know and you might never you know if you have a legitimate reason bought that was not the impetus for this decision that those legitimate motives don't as i said earlier all service employees case they have one there was no the the court and were didn't consider that there was no a free there you know i mean so it's a different it is a different case and you can go through all the bargaining but if you're a motive in the first place it's not if you've got a real motive than the ex who went to the bargaining the flows from it that they failed to hype or they failed to train properly i mean they set it up i don't know how else to put or at least that's i believe the facts show that and i've mentioned i've discussed at my great show in two thousand and nine told by consultant they hire it mate and simply should not be driving buses if they continue to drive buses for two years in two thousand and eleven all of the sudden maintenance employees cannot try buses even though we don't have enough bus drivers to drive the bus to use what was the difference why in the two years i mean they say oh it's because we needed to have students which of course they did because the the employees selected he asked me who it was for other reasons not because if you look at the bargaining there was absolutely no proposals based on the operational issues asked me discuss it tendence policy wasn't provided disher never came up with an attendance policy there was absolutely nothing that happened at the table that addresses have racial  terms of opening times are starting times and pulled show you get to that point anyhow the superintendent saying oh we've solved the problem of the late buses by changing any keep growing and you get no current proposals from the district on i believe the issue of wages working conditions changing the starting salary moving things around not you have to determine whether or not in fact the reason is the chairman or is it protection at all and i would submit that it is here given the history in this district is a protect n all and even if there is some bona fide legitimacy to it is that a real motivation is the motivation hostility in the manner which i believe your honor suggesting there is some evidence and i pointed it out in my purview that once after he was determined they decided to put in these lead workers together and says that's it's you however i think that you have to call back to what the actual motivation was hearses picking out a particular event that occurred long after the no doubt about principle reason is operational concerns but there might also be some cost savings so you can't really make cost savings your paramount reason for outsourcing when you don't know if there are any and you don't hurt there are actually there to this the first is there is no better really don't know where you get the bits once you get the bit that is obviously you have a responsibility to respond to the cost savings so it was always it was always there absolutely was secondary you read read the record it's been requested please tell us what your position is and then when they made a proposal is going to be millions of dollars more costly than outsourcing then the next proposition is you know sort of you know how close can you come give us your best simply a proposition that you gotta have the economics before you really know if that becomes the basis of action