and gather in the parking lot just outside the doors of the cell if those doors are blocked for some reason proceed back out through the lobby of the main door around the corner and into the lot tom coburn and i will be responsible for making sure the building i  and that was your job and people mother do and was the one of the two shooters at columbine back in one thousand nine hundred five and there was also discussion about suicide and prevention and things like that so very seriously and then i went to the change of command last friday which was fun and especially later on at the upper deck and that's all it was i also attended the change of command i didn't make it to the upper deck but the ceremony was really lovely the words were gracious and thoughtful and i appreciated the walk out what they called the walk out that was that was just a nice touch i'd never been to one before so that was kind of cool i also had a airport commission meeting and i think it was last week when we had the first planning the airport planning the master planning and so i went to that and mostly they kind of related the timeframe and the purpose of master planning and there were we did have exercise with sticky dots or docked they've done a survey open to the public maybe several months ago about kind of a swab analysis of the strengths and weaknesses and opportunities in the other one strength weakness the threats opportunity and threats thank you and then everyone in the group was fairly small there weren't all that many well there's only half of the people on the committee that showed up and then several residen and so everyone was allowed to put dots on different things and add to the different items under those four and then they were and then the meeting was over so there wasn't a whole lot of discussion but they will get back with us on the results of that so that was kind of interesting to see where dots landed in different places and then at the airport commission meeting there wasn't we get an update on what's happening on the different projects there will continue to be unfortunately some more in one place they have to polish the asphalt or whatever the runway make it i don't know they have to polish it one place and then they have to rough it up somewhere else so they continue to put the finishing touches i guess on the new runway and taxiway so it is taking longer than they had anticipated so some of the shrubs that used to be around the foundations of the houses that were demolished and some kind of scraggly tree lines i guess it will be made to look like a park they have to first had to cut it down and haul it away and then they have to get to the stump removal group in grind them up and then smooth it out and plant grass i know there's been some concern by the public the reasoning on the airport side was as expressed by the airport director is that they feel it is makes it look more park like and also  safety concern when they drive around to look and see if there are people parked or woodring where they shouldn't be they get a clear view i know some of the residents are unhappy about that but i think ultimately it will look as nice as the area just opposite the actual airport parking garages but change is always a challenge helen tom and i have been meeting or have begun our meetings with staff on the c i p those meetings will go on this week and next numbers are pretty significant and so we will be working with staff on that over the next two weeks we are beginning the public information sessions for the november sixth vote related to the community center library city hall in your pack or on your desk and there are some in the back is a schedule of those public meetings you'll see that a couple of them it notes possibly cancel and cancel those are not canceled as much as they're going to be rescheduled  eleventh i might also add is the evening of the firefighters dinner and i don't know if you want speaker somebody wants to speak to that but so there would not be one that night but nonetheless there will be six possibly seven and in some of these are locked in on the first one actually is tomorrow night at the library so i am also speaking to the seniors of the residents at  allenwood on wednesday night for information meeting for them fire prevention day is saturday it's at the at the fire station here it's a great event for young kids to come to and learn about fire prevention and they have cookies and food in balloons and all kinds of fun have stuff so the of it child or grandchild it's a nice event come to  the community collaborative the community mental health collaborative is meeting here in this room on the thursday at eight am it's the larger group to include all the communities  that are involved in the community outreach program and we were pleased to host the governor's capital for a day event thursday of last week we had  affairs and megan sullivan who now is the executive director of vets see and of course we have a lot of issues before of epsy with her to ft district and so it was good to have them here he toured ellard square which is slated to open  trucks and i think it was we got as far down as to see the champlain housing trust sixty units of affordable mixed affordable housing the excavation is beginning for the foundation they are they have all the permits yet they're there they're digging a hole over there right now we didn't get as far as we could pass that intersection it was raining out muddy but but they would have  also seen david shanks project now the site is cleared and i think construction will begin on that our one regret was we could not get them over to city center park they didn't have enough time for that but we of we have invited them to come back see the park so was i thought it was a great opportunity hello to you you were there guy i knew i'd done it seemed like i had done some the every day last week and then that i blanked on it but no that was it was great and they will  when closer to or maybe when they have the grand opening or the ribbon cutting for the ellard square they will invite us and you can see the it's pretty impressive the difference and we were shown one of the apartments the market rate in one and the supported rate are in what you call it and they essentially are well they're very similar one difference is i guess in the market rate there's a clause that we can have a washer and dryer up and down and they have two bedrooms one is quite small but but it looks like it will be really very very nice and they have a stairway as you walk in front and center so they're hoping that that encourages people to walk upstairs rather than take the elevator so they're doing they've designed some things within the design to really  promote wellness and and walking and those kinds of things for the elderly and we also met with patrick the duke and talked with him jennifer marie couldn't make that meeting we had sort of friday meetings to kind of get updated on the the library's plan for their campaign and we've kept him up to date and that's been good and we we have a social going to press today so it is out the door i'm going to press and then the website has been significantly updated and we have the right card so we're going to continue to work on refining the message  him bridge at kimball avenue and marshall avenue and let me just read that because it has to be in a public meeting the public meeting for the kimball avenue marshall avenue culvert replacements study will be held as part of the regular schedule wilston alternatives develop for this project and provide a summary of design considerations for each alternative interested parties are encouraged to attend the meeting very questions regarding the meeting or if you cannot attend but want to submit comments please contract time to pete rose up deputy director of the department of public works and this also one involves the potential for a bike and pedestrian facility to cross money brooke there are so important project ok council members go absolutely every anybodies invite if it says eight pm and it's a public meeting should we depend upon that starting time since it's part of the regular is a part of the regular it must be part of the that's a misunderstanding you know i read that and i think what paul connors was saying is giving some examples of of other times when the community has passed considering your includes disbursements an approval of the a submittal of the state municipal planning grant application is there any discussion or questions it was moved and seconded ok all in favor signify by saying benefited from cheap whipple's inclusive caring and professional leadership and where as to political has exemplified the most important qualities of a police officer and leader integrity trust professionalism fairness and respect and has served the people of south burlington for twelve years and the citizens of vermont for more than thirty years as a police officer and where as chief whip all has served as the lead juvenile law instructor in vermont and is the lead animal cruelty investigation instructor and whereas chief whipple has been a leading force in the development and implementation of community outreach a program created in partnership with the howard center in six participating communities to embed mental health counselors with first responders which is made a tremendous improvement in their response to residents and visitors suffering from mental health challenges and where as chief whip always been a leader on the effort to form that shouldn and county public safety authority which will enable the consolidation of multiple and separate emergency dispatch services  and county into one unified service thereby greatly improving the efficiency and effectiveness of responses to residents and visitors and crisis and where as chief whipple has been actively has actively participated in the constitutional council of accountability with law enforcement officials to address issues and measure progress toward a fair and impartial system of law enforcement and where as chief whipple was recognized by his peers as a respected leader in law enforcement by being elected president of the vermont police chiefs association and where been the acknowledged leader in focusing law enforcement and attention to the going to the growing problem of human trafficking in vermont and where is recognition of chief whipple's leadership extended to the national level with his appointment to the medal of valor review board and his services chair for four years now there for let it be resolved that on behalf of the residents of the city of self burlington the city council does hereby recognize and extend its deepest appreciation for chief whipple service and dedication to the residents of the city of south burlington whose lives are the better for his years of service and the exemplified the commitment to justice and fairness that leads to making a true difference in a community and that it be further resolved that we the members of the city council recognize and honor our chief of police trevor whipple for his devotion to duty compassion for victims mentorship to other officers and commitment to community and let it be further resolved this signed copy of this res resolution shall be presented to chief trevor whipple and that this resolution will be inserted in its entirety in the minutes of the south burlington city council meeting so please come forward we all want to in my my formal prepared words are on friday afternoon and i thank you to the members that were able to attend a very beautiful somewhat emotional ceremony for me  think as i said on friday to certainly the council the manager the deputy manager and to the community it's really been an honor to serve this community and it's it's an honor because i was chosen chosen by then chuck after and the city council and you to be supported through the end of my tenure of last friday as i joked a little bit in my speech on friday it was always not always easy but it was always respectful dealing with whoever the counsel was at the time we didn't get every budget we wanted we didn't get every request we wanted but this was city government is about it's about balancing and it's about finding that balance that works for the services and the tax payer so i think just i'm rarely brief but to be brief and not get emotional it really has been an absolute honor to serve this community it's been i told shawn burke you won the lottery when he was chosen to work  in so i certainly wish him well i thank heaven for the last two months of transition period to work with sean it's really given me a comfort i'm a little bit possessive of the department of the community frankly and what we've built here  and i think sean bourke well it forward and raise it even higher than it is now so i just simply say say thank you to the council and thank you to the community for allowing me to serve it's been an absolute pleasure well thank you very much what we'll do is take a brief recess so people can we can have a real reception and have some food and the audience has the chance to personally speak to the former chief overview of the o t just to give you a sense of what our conservation easements look like on public land and the process that we typically go through with communities and then any questions or discussion you want to have afterwards five thousand members and we've conserved we've conserved over five hundred seventy thousand acres and we hold one thousand eight hundred across the state we have several different types of projects they can be categorized in landscape and part of the land based economy and then in the bottom left we have family lands that might not be large commercial farms or large tracts of forest land but that are really important parts of our rural landscape and r economies and then on the bottom right we have a category of projects that are dealing with communities and conserving lands for various reasons that are important to communities for various reasons to give you an idea so i'm to focus on that last category and to give you an idea of other projects that we have conservation easements on in other areas so the mills riverside park some of you may be familiar with a little over two hundred acres  variety of projects we've done and also kind of what would be drawing from if we were to develop an easement for four wheel or nature park ten acre property but the public values there far exceed the measurement of acres  it's a very popular sledding hill and and preston pond is a four hundred acre property in bolton that is somewhat of a forest but also has a lot of ecologically significant areas so land just a quick read through the basics of what a conservation easement is is a voluntary perpetual legal document it's actually a deed by which a land owner be it a city or private land owner gives away some of its rights that it has as a land owner to that property so if you think of it as a as an owner having a bundle of sticks each one representing a right the landowners are hanging on to the right to recreate on their land to manage their land but giving away rights that like subdivision and development of that land is recorded in land records and it runs with the land so to speak so that it new land owner would need to live by that easement as well these men focuses on protecting the lansky resources so that would be different for farm conservation easement or a conservation easement on public lands so it would focus on for productive land say the agricultural soils or the on a natural habitat area on the biologically  important areas or water resources or the outdoor recreation opportunities more often than not on almost any time of easement there are multiple purposes for conserving a property and the purposes are really important because the whole easement is measured against the purposes of why the land was conserved and so these men protect those purposes by limiting things like subdivision commercial residential development mining excavation trash dumping motorized with permission and we can get into that more if you like but that again ties back to the purposes of the conservation easements on public land vary in that they include those components on the last live but also tend to have things that require allowing the public to access the property at a minimum for for pedestrian uses and there's typically a management plan provision which would require that the city or town develop a management plan with public input and the things that might fall to the management plan level or things like forest men management if the city or town wants to do it consistent with the easement but if they want to do that if so where and when development the mix of recreational uses that it will allow on the property and how those will co exist any structures to serve those uses or the idea of how the city might manage dogs those would all typically fall into a management plan which would need to be approved by v l t to make sure they are consistent with the conservation easement and then finally another element of town or city owned properties under conservation easements there's usually some limit on the transfer of the property by the town or city so that it can't be sold to a private individual or entity that's just not set up well to manage that kind of public access or public land conservation process is typically we have initial conversations to develop the broad project configuration what land is in and out of an easement and for example we usually try to exclude a not always but infrastructure such  houses or things that aren't interpol to the park or the farm or whatever maybe so in this case the house would be something we want to talk about and whether that would be included or excluded from these men and again our typical preference is to exclude those from the area that's conserved we typically do an ecological assessment you all are ahead of the game with your management plan but we still like archaeologists to go out there and and look at the property and then we would just agree on the major components and signed a memorandum of understanding that went through the partner roles the key features of an easement the timing project cost there are projects that we would have to take on and somehow cover and i can go into that further if you like and then memorializing the process that we're going to work together on to get that conservation easement completed and then we would once we saw that memorandum of understanding we would start drafting a conservation easement doing a title search and we'd have our staff go out and develop a baseline documentation report which is establishing the existing status of the land as it's being conserved so we'd have something to measure against over time and then the management plan in closing that those the order of those two can change or be flexible in that a lot of people or a lot of towns or cities might have a plan in place or only have an interim plan place until they can develop a more complete plan with more public input after a year or so and then after the land can serve the city and b l t would work together to make sure the ongoing management is consistent with the conservation settle whatever violation has occurred but there are times when either it's just there's no kind of putting the trees back or and so in those cases you know there could be a monetary  component of a solution or restoration component of a solution or it could be you know we've actually now had to have a structure taken down so things like that have taken place that include that activity but so far we've had to actually go to court very few times  uses meaning outdoor recreation potential agricultural community gardens as exist out there or a natural area and those natural functions but when it comes to how humans will interact on the property the easement is largely silent and asking the town or city to sort out what easement what activities consistent with the easement will be allowed and not allowed so something like whether dogs are allowed or allowed on a leisure is really up to the city or town to determine in their management planning process and is really not something that's hard wired into a perpetual conservation easement have a parks you know we've never come across that but as long as i you know what i would speculate is that as long as it were set up in a way that any ecological impacts were minimized i could see that being acceptable use under the  second part is you said you might speak to some of the project look to your what with the ball park is or what you'd offer i'm not sure and i have reviewed that you know i would love to review it more carefully with the city and nothing but nothing jumped out to me as really part problematic that i saw first review and some of the things that were discussed as far as being in the conservation easement in the management plan i think those would be critical to sort out  along the lines of you know management of dogs would be something that would be very hard for us to enforce in perpetuity how dogs are managed and so would be clearly in our eyes something that would fall to him and plan and the cost so our cost we think about is into categories and we you know have a lot more fun talking about the great resources that are protected but it is true that we don't want to take on an obligation to monitor and force an  unless we have the capacity to develop it in a way that will best set it for success and that we have the resources in the future to monitor and force it in perpetuity so the perpetuity question is for every project we set aside with the vermont community foundation and down it so that we know in the community knows that there will always be the financial resources for us to monitor and force that easement and so for a property that's heavily used by the public that's in the ballpark of twenty five thousand dollars that we set aside with the remark community foundation and we also want to know that in researching the property and working with the community and having our attorneys draft the easement and creating a baseline documentation report that we can do that effectively up front so that it will have  these perpetual whole impacts and so that ballpark for that work is around fifteen thousand dollars so annually no those are both up front one time costs that together will be in the forty thousand dollar they wanted suggested that we divide the property into two one section around the wheeler house and then the rest so do you would you be the steward of both of those sections and you just have different rules for the wheeler house and that isn't a problem i'm asking a lot of questions no i got yeah that's fine experience the other properties about so i did see divide something like that and it would again it might be a management planning function basically because we're trying to within the bounds of protecting those resources we want to be as flexible as possible because over the forty years of our existence i think we started out with a good level of humility and i think it's only grown as to our ability to predict the future so we want to make sure we're flexible enough that if there's a really good reason to have a small school or small outdoor classroom shed or structure outside of a complex that we in two thousand and nineteen thought was a good place to have structures we want to be flexible  be able to react to that and if it's not a big resource impact so i guess what i'm saying is that delineation of farmstead complex and the more natural area we would see is in the management plan and if the community decided in fifty years that they wanted to do something outside that complex and wanted to change their management plan as long as it was consistent with the conservation easement and protecting those resources we could to prove that so their plan but i know in the past we've talked about the opportunity with the wheeler house and the adjacent lands to use that as a venue for events private and public perhaps that would in fact raise revenue you know like a beautiful spot for a wedding or something like that and i'm would be could be part of an easement or is that really counter to what you see is the best use of these natural resources yes so holding aside for a minute the house and the area right by the house you know that i'll distinguish between those but we do have conservation easements that enable events on conserve land and and that contemplate the ability  to and even for recreational activities throughout the property the charging of reasonable fees if it helps to maintain the park that can all be consistent with the conservation easement if it were something that were really clearly going to be an area where you want to be for commercial use it's probably best to just exclude that area from the conservation easement but if it's an area that will be operating as a public park and at times will generate money to help the town continue to operate that park that can be consistent with the easement the house again it would be our preference to exclude that from the conservation easement and so really  any other questions so if you excluded the house would that be worth it in the us when in such a way that that the footprint of the house is is is is used in a well defined so that if something happened in the house and needed to be let's say rebuild if there was a fire some of the right would it be be able to expand the footprint of the house or would it be would it be locked into the original footprint or something like that i mean we would tend to exclude an area around the house and we would if it were to be excluded we to work with the city determine you know what's a logical area around the house to exclude within and then there would be a meets and bounds description of what's included in these men and what is not and what is not we would have no here are there any other questions like if this is going on that just hypothetically are these agreements ever we visited with your conservation partners so that you would change the up a couple of years ago because you know throughout the nation at times and typically they're amended to incorporate additional either additional values so more restrictions or more land or something like that but they can be they can be amended there was a lot of controversy about that and there's a lot of scrutiny by the i r s on that type of activity so they don't happen that much anymore amending to include more land or something like that there's just clearly additive value  will still do at times but other amendments there's become more scrutiny that even if it's an additive case of adding restrictions we've got to be very careful yeah and i should have said in the beginning you know i was able to walk the will or nature park with folks in the task force a couple years ago and then sit in with when they're meeting where they're meeting so it's exciting that you're moving ahead on its conservation it's great you thank you very much ok we'll move on to item nine this is a joint council meeting with the planning commission so we're going to take a moment and add some tables and chairs looks like we need a lot more chairs all right so why don't we get ready or start with i don't know nine which is a joint council meeting with the planning commission welcome and thank you for agreeing to meet with us and the design is really to receive a review or an overview of the current status of development projects in growth projections for the future this really came about when quite a number of public members some of whom had been before the planning commission also came before the city council and really wanted some answers to questions  about growth and development in the city and we didn't have the answers and so we agreed at that time to have a public hearing with the presentation by our director of  planning to address some of those questions invited the planning commission to join us because it certainly is part of their purview and we should all be aiming in the same direction or helping each other move forward and so that the reasoning for this joint meeting and our our hope is to really start that conversation or continue it actually about where we are with growth and development with some facts there probably will be questions that arise tonight that we might need more information in order to answer and that's perfectly ok that's what tonight is about to have that kind of conversation and sharing of information and broad thinking by both the city council planning commission so without further ado our director of planning of the planning commission is going to also speak a little bit about in the big picture what what does a comprehensive plan say what are some of the current work that they're working on that really informs this whole subject area and we'll go from got quite a few questions about what the charge of the planning commission was just one in one sense they were appointed by the city council and with that were charged with overseeing revisions to the land development regulations or zoning as well as undertaking planning studies in obtaining a comprehensive plan so that's what i thought would be good to talk about first because the comprehensive plan really sets like a really big vision for our city in the near future looking at the next twenty to thirty years and updating that on a cycle so the last time we updated this it was a complete rewrite which hadn't been done in a very long time to in two thousand and sixteen but it spanned an almost five year period to really go through and look at every single section get extensive public input and during that time we actually had a period of in terms owning where there were many different committees formed in addition to our committees so we had input on various subject matters as affordable housing city center related form based code open space agriculture as well as all of our standing committees and all of them gave feedback on the text as well as goals objectives and strategies so kind of through that whole process we came up with this document the one of the big things about it or i guess a summary is the vision in goals  so that's actually up on the screen here we've kind of broken that down into a couple categories with kind of some overarching themes you can see affordable in communities strong with various schools walk greening clean an opportunity oriented and then within each of the goals there's then objectives that go along with them which state very specific numeric goals are very objectives of the city and then in thirty nine strategies that are ideas for how to implement them a lot of those are related to our plan development and informal and development regulations many are many are things like you know support funding for recreation paths and you know would maybe support an initiative like the pennies for profits initiative so some of them are not really necessarily related to land development  within their one of the things that we've actually wind up talking about a lot is that there's a lot of competing goods where you know maybe and this is something we started with everywhere you know there's two things that are really quite good  and you know how with how to look at those within a con because certain context within certain supports the city within the comprehensive plan there's so there's subject matter areas  chapter on energy a chapter on agriculture a chapter on road infrastructure different kinds of categories where we've done analysis and come up with came up with the objectives and strategies as well as sections where we broke down different areas of the city we have four different quadrants and our central district so we have five different kind of geographical areas where we looked in depth so i think that that's kind of a big overarching look at the comprehensive plan and then we use this comprehensive plan which is kind of a guiding document to then inform our land development regulations and where we're going all the time with our work plan to implement the things that we have written is in is a visionary document get them into our our work and our you know planning documents and development regulations so i think that's the overview so first couple things that we present as relates to the plan is starting last year two thousand and seventeen after the twenty sixteen plan was adopted the planning commission started having started doing some analysis on an annual basis of how what's happening what are the development trends taking place so don't just arise that map in the middle use intentionally fuzzy it's  actual zoning districts the conference of plan this map is intended to show generally speaking what are what are the targets so in this the green represents very low intensity to principally open space types of uses in the future the yellow represents low intensity primarily residential so that has a lot of our historic neighborhoods as well so over our current ones the orange represents medium intensity with some mixed  see more condominiums in there some more neighborhood commercial type activities the red represents our medium to high intensity so really the areas of the city where the where the plan promotes the most intense mixed use activity and then the blue is really our employment areas the airport and then a land business park etc so the way that we've one of the metrics that we've used to evaluate this on the left and on the right are two charts showing what percentage of all housing is being built in each of these areas so you can see that historically so from beginning of the first house that still exists in south trying to present about sixty one percent of all the housing units are in our low density areas and other twenty three percent are in our medium tent cities so that's almost three quarters whereas with the focus in the conference a plan in seeing seventy percent of development has been taken place in either the this given residential neither the high intensity or the medium intensity with only through thirty two percent happening in the low intensity areas so that's one metric essential second metric this  and the percentage in the last ten years where we've seen housing taken place by area here you'll see that there has been a little bit higher proportion than in the last graph of  planning commission the program then organises more numbers but i want to give that broad overview first of all we are going to speak on every single item on the work program because it's nine pages long and has sixty seven items on it so we have  over the last couple years we've been really trying to make a good process for prioritizing our work i think we've we've gotten better at it you can see some of you know the information that goes into that  we have identified work for the current year which is the green a few projects kind of in the wings that we've also thought are really important we need to find partners and other committees or find funding to get them in the lineup or if we have some gaps in our schedule to kind of fill in with those items that said there are many projects kind of waiting in the wings for future years  we as part of our work plan tied all of the comprehensive plan goals you can see you know the last column actually identified as what com planned goal we're addressing with that particular project within here we've also i d d items that other committees could potentially take on as part of their work plans you know or ones that we want to try to seek funding for in the near term you know one example it kind of fits of those was a discussion we had recently about the gap and future needs assessment of parks you know it is this question about whether or not it fit one of the funding sources that was available identified that it's really something that maybe should be led by you know one of the parks committees i mean that's kind of an example something that shows up on here but maybe we wouldn't mind being the lead or maybe would facilitate funding something like that so there's also a lot of ongoing items on here including meeting with the d r b committees  looking at the transportation overlay just tricked should kind of focus those areas to be more multi modal when it was originally adopted it didn't take into consideration a lot of the walkability were really shooting for now traffic impact as looking at the tilley kimble community drive study we have in the as a party project looking at the wildlife a natural resource standards to try to establish a clear review of criteria for airport noise compatibility plan which will be happening later this fall we also have to work on the official map update that actually hasn't been done since two thousand and four there's been quite a lot of work to identify a lot of bike paths facilities that should be on there but aren't actually part of the official map yet and that's a document that also looks at infrastructure like water towers or road connections and things like that so that's something that's kind of in the in the work pla in some of the things that we've been working really hard on is to really make sure that the city center for mesa code really works so now that some buildings are being implemented and getting feedback from that process seeing if there's areas that need to be tweaked to really makes that the center the vision that people have envisioned over that very long plane process one thing that we've been working with the affordable housing committee on is different initiatives to include possible expansion of inclusionary zoning to the rest of the city which is now part of the form based code area only to see if that's appropriate in other areas  developed a new policy on that we'd like the public to follow in bringing new items to us we have found that it's kind of hard to make appropriate work program when we almost see you know every really meaning have somebody coming in with a new project and then you know to have to go back and look at the work programs we've identified that in october and in april who are going to try to bat look at new potential l t r change  ts and you know so we can really evaluate them more efficiently in addition like in context of what we're working on and then at that time we would reevaluate the work program what kind of all of those new items of all together to you know really be more fair to the public and we have been talking about expanding the open space requirements criteria citywide in city centers there is  very specific criteria for open space to be high value uses of land that would otherwise be developable this is a change from kind of the large coverage idea where basically you would have a certain part of your purse or a percentage of your area that could be covered with impervious either pavement or building and then what's left is then you're open space so the idea w this is to take a certain percentage of land it would otherwise be developable and create a high value of open space that's really usable and we have a whole criteria system for what that looks like and what those requirements city and as part of that that's actually part of element and master planning project which is one of our biggest projects that we've been working on that incorporates lots of different things that we've gotten feedback on for a long time including a lot of requirements  recommendations that came from public hearings back when we were doing the conference of plan and then work with the farm base code which only got employment in city center so what you're looking at here is  kind of a reimagined idea of developments that's context sensitive realizing that numbers don't just create a community so a number of like density number doesn't necessarily create the community or the efficient use of land that we'd really like to see so we've completed phase one of this and phase two is about eighty percent done we've worked on this over dozens of meetings and had  outreach to multiple committees and developers it would create new standards for large developments including thresholds for when they would be required to be  the idea is that there's multiple types you can see here there's multiple rows here showing different types of communities or neighborhoods they could be created depending on where you are in the city in the context of what's around for each of the is there is kind of a box diagram is and imagined possible layout what something might look at like from above with kind of a distribution of open space developed areas municipal or civic uses like a post office or a shared community or something like that and then the pie chart shows kind of the breakdown of each of those different categories of kind of land use or or requirement within each of those areas and you know as part of this you're really looking at the buildable area instead of you know just all the open space just being the wet ones or something that wasn't developable and then for each of those things there's really specific criteria on what we were it what it would look like but see so there'd be some master planning for future phases you'd see the whole thing on wants to create here for open space types well as an affordability context and we're actually looking at minimum densities as well as maximum to really try to look at really the most efficient use of land which isn't part of our current regulations so that's kind of a general overview of this quite big projects that i think we're pretty excited about you know really trying to take a lot of those come under preventive plan goals to look at some of the bigger developments that eighty percent complete and i mean that that is you know to getting it into the all the others as the new subdivision regulation it's replacing our current  you know developments that i think people aren't necessarily happy with where we're not getting the creativity we're giving flexibility but without the benefit to the city i think  development regulations they would yes this will be part of the land development regulations will have done and put it into a very user friendly guidebook for how to do it so the actual work of developing the standards is underway this would be the let's make something that isn't looks a little less like th rules for what we love the idea of the november winter but i think it's probably more like march april winter you know it takes a lot of time for us to get the public in poke we need and really hash out the details and was something th big we want to make sure it's right so just a little bit more numbers and then we'll look at some maps in a minute or so i went back we looked back at almost forty years of development history and th e blue bars here represent a number of dwelling units for which we've issued zoning permits on a given year so it could be a single family home it could be a unit in a ten unit building or a twenty unit domain we see not surprisingly that there are some cyclical trends to it and this does include this is a net number so you'll see for example two thousand and twelve very little in there part of that is because two thousand and twelve was the year that a lot of homes were moved by the airport and so it's only fair to note where housing numbers went down our trend line is pretty steady overall at a little bit under one hundred fifty dwelling units a year on average most of the last decade has been right around there you will see that there's been a little bit of an increase since two thousand and eight and that's not really surprising given what happened in the early two thousand this is not that far off from what's happened nationally which was there was a lot of development took place and then two thousand and eight came around and there wasn't a lot that's happened and so over the last decade it's come back to our sort of more traditional average on the right there is  what is the what's been happening now there's some big asterisk says to this you'll see here that it shows an annual off average population growth from one thousand nine hundred twenty sixteen of about one and a half percent annually and ten to twenty sixteen of about point seven five percent the data for population comes from the u s census bureau and it's an estimate it's not a count so the way that the census bureau does it is that these the twenty ten number and then they gather input on a monthly data monthly basis from us from every community in the country on the number of new housing units and then they make an estimate about the number of people perhaps old so typically at the end of the decade when there's the next count those numbers get adjusted fairly significantly because there's not there's no actual count happening between twenty twenty ten and twenty twenty however using the information that they gave the most recent one is twenty sixteen it shows a population growth of about zero point seven five percent the conference of plan has two numbers in it and i want to be clear about this because i think there's been some community discussion on this the conference of plan included in it a the results of a demographic analysis done by mckibben demographics to the school district it was done in two thousand and fourteen twenty fifteen that was a forecast so the forecast is what is the anticipated population change using birth and death rates in migration over migration the demographic forecast done in twenty fourteen fifteen stated that they that they felt that there would be a small population growth from about a little bit under eighteen thousand population to about to about eighteen three or eight hundred for by two thousand and twenty and then it would level off back down a little bit to about a little over eight hundred thousand again by two thousand and twenty five that's the forecast number we won't know whether they were correct or incorrect until we get some actual census counts the second number that's in the comprehensive plan is as jessica mentioned there's about sixty objectives in the plan and one of them is to anticipate and prepare for a growth rate of and here said one to one and a half percent population growth and so here we're seeing that that's that's sort of right in the range of where we've been historically and that's part of where that number came it's it's been a little bit under two percent for the last twenty five years or so this one is numbers that we have these are these are numbers that we generate based on zoning permits so we're pretty comfortable with those  numbers so for the last six years seven years it's been one and a half percent growth on average in the number of the well in units in the conference of plan says one and a half to two percent  this chart here which has lost more colors than it is saying basically the same thing as the last one but it's a breakdown of the types of dwelling units that we're seeing so blue represent single family red represents duplex s green represents multifamily which could be anything from a triplex up to a forty unit building or fifty unit building and the orange one it shows up is for congregate housing senior housing that is very specifically service oriented ones again you'll see a couple numbers where if you look really closely at the bottom you're seeing a negative number on the single families and that's because of largely because of near the airport that there's been a couple of years where we've actually had a affordable housing units being built annually so the plan has in it a goal of or an objective excuse me of about twenty four dwelling units per year being built between twenty twenty five twenty fifteen and twenty twenty five at one hundred to one hundred twenty percent of median income and about eighty two units being built per year at the eighty percent of meeting income or less that's those are strong strong objectives since that's or the total historically of housing it's been about one hundred fifty it's been there's been some years of significant formal housing being built the dark blue line there represents the numbers that eighty percent of median income it's very high in twenty eight hundred thanks to our friends at champaign housing trust acquired the property  north of here so it's pretty exhausting housing hundred five dwelling units that are now permanently affordable thanks to champlain housing trust this isn't new housing but it is permanently affordable we're also seeing new fordable housing bill being built  me into the airport parkway facility and the orange represents into the bartlett bay facility so we can speak more in detail but i did want to show you sort of a quick snapshot of where we are now in the maps is the next few maps here showing what's been happening in what is what's happening in the near future in south burlington this is the area of the city that is largely are either to district or the city center form base codes area as of today there are five significant projects going on and just for those who can't see that all that the text their top left hand corner is an approved project for eighty eight multifamily dwelling units off kori hill road the one in the middle on the left there is the soon to be completed thirty nine s senior housing over on market street that is being run by cathedral square all of those will be affordable the next one down is the pit that you may see right next to the sears auto on dorset street that is replacing a former dermatologist building with sixty welding in that's on the second floor and a new dermatology office down below and then basement for storage and lab work and that kind of stuff on the right side of the page you see a rectangle there that is the next building being built by snyder braverman that's go sixty unit dwelling being owned and operated eventually by champlain housing trust forty five of those units are going to be affordable and they include everything from one bedrooms to four bedroom units in there and then lastly in the bottom right immediately next to where you've seen the four townhome buildings go up about three years ago are going to be four more that have just received approval for twelve total town homes included in that will be two affordable inclusionary that's i know that there's a lot of interest in knowing more about what's going on in the southern half of the city so the next set of maps here are all showing on the left side shelbourne road and on the north is id nine so that's the boundary so this the black line that you see on the bottom right hand corner there that's the southeast quadrant zoning district and over on the left side you see a red line that sort of snakes around that's our mixed used shelburne road commercial district to say give you a little bit of context here we've got several different zoning districts going on here the top rate and corners the industrial open space district and we've got residential districts in between sheltering road and spear street the blue in this represents neighborhoods that are already built this is built up areas that already exist in the in this part of the community if you'd like i can go into all the assumptions that go into that but basically it's a house on usually a quarter acre or so but in some cases up to a couple of acres where reasonably the likelihood is that that would be viewed as a built out neighborhood it does not mean that there couldn't be some additional slots to take place in here somebody might have a large lot there might be a couple of parcels in there where handful of additional homes could be put that kind of thing but this is sort of largely i think we would view this is being built around areas the two brown spots in there are the two solar rays that exist in southeast quadrant just for frame of reference there  this next slide here the dark blue represents areas where in this part of the city where development has either been approved or an applicant for development has reached the stage in the new process where they have with their vested in their approvals meaning that they have the right to be reviewed under the current regulations or the regulations that they were that they submitted under at the time and so that's  important point and why we want to highlight these so these projects here i'm going to go from the top left again in the top left hand corner is a spear meadows neighborhood that includes forty eight walling units in one to three unit buildings it also includes fourteen acres of off site conservation through the t d r program the plan unit development final plat was approved in two thousand and seventeen i would note that there's also an appeal going on of that is at this time under development review the plan submitted is for one hundred sixty four dwelling units in one to forty unit buildings and sixty five acres of off site conservation through the t d r program a complete plot as has been submitted in so they're under the rules in place today the next one on the left is a very small not entirely built area of the farm neighborhood off alan  road there's five to seven house lots of not been built there but largely the neighborhood is built out the last one on the bottom left is so village so phillips has three phases to it it was originally approved for three hundred thirty nine total dwelling units and a large amount of open space around it phase one in phase two are about two third cent about half built and phase three recently received it under construction for the last few years this is off heinsberg road just before you get to oak creek oak creek village it has fifty two dwelling units in one to forty unit buildings four nonresidential lots about twenty six acres of  site conservation through the t d r program and it received its final clad approval in two thousand and thirteen so there as the market is demanding they're building the the dwelling units in the market rate and the nonresidential the next one points down to a few different sites around the golf course the golf course has was approved for developments in the league ninety's and then various parts of it went under appeal from development review starting in two thousand two and two thousand and three a settlement was reached and there's been revised a couple times to where now they have at a masterplan level of three hundred fifty four total dwelling units approved about hundred ninety five of those are remaining most of them in four areas or excuse me five areas that are pointed out in blue there so one of them just perceived it's final plaid approval that's the one that sort suddenly to neighborhood consists of right now one hundred forty two proposed to all units and twenty two acres of off site conservation through the t d r program a smaller version of this project meaning one where they had left a portion of their developer will property for future development was received a final approval back in two thousand and eight in twenty fifteen they came forward to the city and began looking at the remaining portion of it which was the highest density zoning district adding that in adding that acreage in and so they received a preliminary platter proof for this neighborhood in the spring and have just  has eleven dwelling units and was approved in two thousand and twelve i think five or six of them have been built so that's what's currently happening in this part of the city this next map sort of combines the information that we just saw so the light blue is existing neighborhoods the dark blue is the ones that are either approved or vested under the current regulations the green here represents areas that are open is open space is a statement of what will be for ever open space in the future at least under the regulations as they currently stand there are some assumptions that go into this it includes our natural resource protection zoning permanent conservation it also includes some exist some properties where there are some cross covenants between different private property owners to where a majority of several different properties would have to vote in order to allow for additional development so we put that as being essentially open space and it includes private condominium space as well condom economy and so there might be a large condominium like so village where as part of their approval they created dozens of acres of open space and so then it it's it's both a development approval and it's in their deeds that that is aware the council voted a couple weeks ago to contribute towards the long term conservation of the property as part of an option agreement with the goal of conserving the whole property the closing has not taken place officially and b that even after closing there are the cities contribution to the property shown there is about thirty or forty percent of the development  potential the various different entities will be involved in seeking the funds to conserve the rest of it over time so it sort of blinking towards conservation but i didn't want it to be presented as being a done deal the yellow in here represents basically properties that don't fall as being long term open space or existing development or approved development essentially the properties that could be developed in the coming months years decades i did want to make a couple of quick notes on it especially in the top left hand corner you'll see three large three or four large light yellow chunks those are for the most part not all of them but most of them are owned by the university of vermont and they are zone what we call institutional agricultural  university that zoning district does allow for developed for campus development to take place which could be a horse farm which you see presently it could be classrooms it could be dormitories it could be all the things related to university it does not currently allow for non university related activities so as as as you may know there's one of the parcels up in the top top piece that the  university offered two to two and a put out a bid for developers to potentially see could zoning change to allow for non university related housing so  through council prioritizes the commitment of the open space funds and these properties as to a higher priority lower priority as a been done to be the recreation of parks committee and the natural resources committee have each developed a scorecard for evaluation of properties as either an opportunity comes up or a threat comes up or the council or staff might be interested in looking at a profit and so there's a scoring matrix but i'm not aware of a priority having been made yet of here's one through ten about what we would what we would go for i can say that the that's right i'm sorry i should correct that the city's official map was just misquoted about does is a regulatory tool which does highlight a handful of properties for which the city has listen to the very highest priority meaning that it's essentially becomes a right of first refusal on those pieces and probably the most well known of those in the last few years it was a portion of the underwood property was under that and when the opportunity came to acquire the whole property that was one of the factors that the council at the time had looked at and said boy you know we this is already been identified as one of the top top properties  any of these parcels are all not official yes it's a little bit more complex but yes the the brown one in the middle which is a solar farm is i believe on the it's either on the existing official map or it's only draft one and so the the that gets a little bit tricky because the official map says that when development takes place the city council has a right of first refusal about the hannaford case in heinz burg that's been a similar function of the town had identified a portion of the property to be a town green and that was some of the what made the news on this whole thing but the  process would be to identify them and then have a public process just like amending zoning to place these restrictions on a property and what led us to identified this parcel in particular  those ones i think were identified as being opportunities for large parks distributed in the southeast quadrant beyond that i think it predates me and i don't live there for everybody else on the commission for everybody so that  done in a long time it's not something that we do annually on a five year basis and i mean that's part of why i you know when i was talking about possible projects was that gap analysis for park speak is it is something that's come up with us that hasn't been done for a long time really to make sure the you know we have all areas of the city covered with with land so and i would underwood that probably put it on the priority list that's why the city want to i think that it was a combination of the view and looking strategically at that part of the city at the time looking out for didn't seem that at around that time the pinnacle neighborhood was had been built village drive neighborhood was being built so philip was was just starting to come online at the time and so probably looking to see these are some spectacular views  things like wetlands on this analysis very broadly speaking the green the natural source protection district contemplated one of the wildlife corners one of the major areas of natural resources but it doesn't necessarily include site by site and now it's this so here some of the properties for example the one of the it's sort of looks like a sort of an arm in the air there right in the middle of the corner of  designated for campus development or designated for potentially you know going going to not becoming part of the campus the east woods property which of the top left hand green there is shown in their master plan as being a green space it does similarly to how the city may own property that is not going to say the vermont land trust or your last conversation yet to permanently conservative it is not permanently conserved but it is in owned by the university they don't pay any property taxes or do they generally speaking yes they pay payment in lieu for buildings where there are buildings but not typically not probably that's my understanding of how the payment new program works so there's some large i mean they probably pay something for the horticultural farm buildings but i would say even if they were just a farm they would at that size they would likely be in the current  program where they would be paying reduce taxes to and so this is the last map that i've got i just want to show i think i'm glad monica mentioned the the eastwood's property because i think it's another important thing to describe in here what these green corps represent so this is the zoning in the southeast quadrant of the there's sort of two categories there's green and there's everything else the everything else is areas where residential development and in some cases where there's a little bit of red there commercial development is permitted and the green represents primarily conservation there are very small examples of where some very very rural levels of development are permitted but basically that's the conservation district the city developed this in two thousand  which was a reform of it was a major study at the time which was the end date from a major study in the early ninety's to look to see what are the key resource areas in southeast quadrant where the wildlife corridors where is the active agriculture taking place and where the connections between it so councillor come to your point there were essentially three wildlife corridors identified in a natural resources analysis nearly two thousand and they follow those three north strips the one on the far right is along the muddy broke the one in the middle starts the children pond and goes up through the that whole big contiguous green block and and connects up to the wheeler nature park up at the top and the one on the left is near south village and connects in through the golf course that one is a large wetland complex there the just a little bit to the right of that where those three big streets go down and see if there's a street in the middle of the green there that was approved prior to this owning coming in to put out the developers that project worked with us too you'll notice there's a bit of a gap between the north streets there they worked with the city to actually relocate about eight housing units in there to try to create a little more of a wildlife corridor or but it was approved prior to the existence the rules that are in place so they have to sort of the neighborhood the well let across the street yeah or the bears are so the the the other reason that i want to show this map in addition to showing sort of the results of the study back in the early in the early two thousand was to discuss was to mention sort of how the southeast quadrant zoning works today so southeast quadrant has an overall density one point two represents across the entire thing just blanket we don't just straight math from there the there are as i said there's green and there's everything else and the way this works is that the bakken it used to be that our regulations said that if you had less than fifty acres of land you could build one house every ten acres and if you had more than fifty acres of land you could build two houses per acre and that was deemed by the city back in the early ninety's to be both not good planning and also completely not fair that if you own forty nine acres you get four homes and if you had fifty acres you had one hundred homes on the property that led to a rezoning that started to create what was called restricted areas areas where development was discouraged and areas where it was encouraged and you were allowed to have what were called at the time noncontiguous planned unit developments which meant you could build a neighborhood and you could have sort of in the vicinity the open space and that's essentially how the dorset farms neighborhood is built and so the dorset farms neighborhood is is relatively compact part of it the across the street where you see some of that cross hatching that's the they use that land to be their density so that's that's how that word that's what it called transition that's part of why it's called transition yeah but regardless of the zoning the piece on the essentially both sides of dorset street in that area have had all of their development potential removed because it's all being used by dorset farm farms so even even if the zoning were different homes can't go there because they've they've already moved their development that looks like there's a there was a big mound for  septic that was built on that corner of cheese factory and that's in shelburne yeah so then the current zoning which came into place in two thousand  six further further sort of separated out the conservation areas in the development areas and so the way it works is that the if you own land in the conservation area you have the theoretical potential of one point three dwelling in its nature but in practice you can only actually build if you have less than fifteen acres of land you can build one house on it and if you have more than fifteen acres of land you can build three total homes on it up to one hundred acres the rest of your potential the one point two dwelling in this breaker is something that you can sell to the what we call receiving areas the other the other colors in here so if it's the brown or the beige of the red the property inherently has one point t buying the development rights from the green so if somebody let's say that same tenant reparse will if they wanted to build up to the forty two willing units and they met all the other standards of the regulations  then they would have to buy twenty eight transferred of transferable development rights from elsewhere which means about twenty five acres of conservation and so i notice both just to describe how this works explain why i was mentioning t d r in the other maps and also show that the these are sort of linked so while i'm showing them is green they're green in part because the landowners in that land that's how they  rezoned that's how they were able to retain economic potential future economic value to the property that's the decision that the city made rather than just straight down zoning and they said we're going to make your development potential less but we're going to allow you to sell so you kind of the t d r get money for to keep it undeveloped even though it's this or a wetlands and it could never be developed anyway yes in practice what we're seeing in the last few years though is that at the state level when any project that goes through act two fifty has to if you're affecting agricultural soils which essentially everything in the southeast quadrant is considered negra cultural soil you have to do you have to mitigate for your building homes on agricultural soil and so the a way that that is done often is by conserving land somewhere else what we're seeing is in the development community  state agricultural mitigation at the same time rather than having to do two separate things so while t d r s can be used from weapons we're seeing them more recently being bought from better quality soils fredrick alter so that the developer is two hundred twenty seven for all the yes it's a hard number to give because if a property like so village has both natural resource protection districts and development districts they just do an internal  relocation and so you could say that so villages use two hundred of them except there isn't a deed transfer because it's just it was all their property so i it's hard to give that exact number  looking at we are working with the with our g i s folks to gets the best mapping that we can on this wetlands are notoriously difficult to know where they all are  dangerous right now they're not they're not super useful for planning purposes by syrian advisory and by weapons advisory layer so we are taking a look at that and if counsel of the commission is interested probably in the next couple weeks we'll be able are there now and then also tied to the counting of the on your previous slide of the undeveloped potentials i'd love to know what the difference between the three thousand and how many units are there and how many acres there are because i would give us an idea of development were to go at this there was a little bit more than fifteen hundred total dwelling units existing so maybe and that was a couple that was a few years ago so let's call it sixteen hundred existing and we'd have we'd have to ask how these ones into it from this map as being approved essentially and from there we could figure out the total potential remaining essentially i've not done the math using the snap but we could certainly do that that's about another eight hundred the previous one ok ok got it on top of the sixteen hundred twenty four hundred six hundred remaining that sounds that sounds in the ballpark for the happy to run the numbers on you i don't want to make a guess in the southeast quadrant hundred something maybe one to two hundred maybe would be my guess but i'm i could be off by fifty percent either way on that well the whole the whole southeast part of it is three thousand acres it's about twenty seven hundred acres and three thousand welling in its potential yeah so how much how many acres of the greens about half of it  that's right you said fifty fifty shot that before yeah well i'm sorry let me let me rephrase that that green is half of it the this green is larger than the other green because it includes a stone house comm has ten acres of common land associated with it or as i mentioned before the dorset farms has some conserved area that would bite zoning is allowable but isn't otherwise  or there's some large house lots that they have crossed restrictive covenants on them so that realistically there's not going to be much of anything being built there so it's so it's somewhat more than that half maybe fifty five to sixty percent is green light afterwards you can count up those numbers absolutely happy to share it with we can share it with you and we can post on our web site as well for everybody to get so for example if a farmer were to sell their t d r s they still have the absolute right to farm that land they but the t d r s list the restrictions so it will be similar but not quite the same thing as where you just got a presentation from  build theoretically up to three they would have to retain three t d r s if they sell all ninety two to yours then they sold all ninety but they would if they retained three of them a could build three homes in those the value of the land changed when they sell the t a question that i prefer to refer to our assessor because how they've been evaluating the potential of t d r and the potential conservation not something that's my area assessor because what i don't know about assessing could fill a much larger room than this one but as i understand it for residential areas it's there's more more well you have any idea how many landowners are involved in all that green open space in the green we don't as a city own any any on any of you we do own some of that so we own we don't own it but we do have and how many of those parcels are four acres or larger versus ten acres or larger but we cannot we can run the numbers for you pretty easily on that idea if i didn't run it that way but we can do that in and we can do that in the next couple days for  so i would i feel as though in this conversation we backed into the six hundred i'd like to verify it but let's assume for discussion purposes the were not that far off then yes that is that would be correct unless the zoning changes or unless you very rarely only once so far somebody has sought a density bonus for doing high levels of affordability so phyllis did that so that could be above and beyond the numbers because they don't you don't have to i think the way jessica described it as it was really accurate in saying that our current p d stand regulations allow for flexibility but they don't necessarily require creativity and so there have been some examples of some really well designed well thought out neighborhoods that are very compact with substantial open space in this we could be talking with the southeast quarter we can talk we can be talking about elsewhere in the city also and have been ones that have not been as well done in that the objective of the project largely would be to much more clearly steer development into that first box of creativity but in return meeting land uses and transitions between neighborhoods but feel free to say otherwise the other question i do have another north road there's a large swath of land up there one of the this is the p t types in here you can see in that it's in the last sort of go from a conservation puti which presumes a lot of open space in a compact neighborhood all the way down to a much more built out one of a neighborhood center what's really interesting about the way that this is been developed is that these may have a  very different scales as well so there may be a conservation type that makes sense in a very rural area where it winds up being it's a low density to begin with and then you take that low density and put the homes in a very small clustered area there may be another part of the city that is they may be a medium density area or somewhere were where it makes sense to have more homes but where the objectives of the amount of conservation may still be very high and so it may be it may say in those areas that rather than single family duplex homes maybe it's one of the town homes or multifamily housing in a small portion and then a large amount of green space so the the amount of housing on the property may be very variable depending on where in the city  but the objectives where the city's goal is conservation that can be applied there with cities goal is to be creating a neighborhood center a downtown city center city center may want to be more built out in some of those areas but still have high quality open our city has acreage but rocky ridges makers have i mean there are lots of varieties and in the acres in our city and then the remaining acreage of our city so i guess the question i would have with regard to your work is do you look at what the various acres look like in order to determine what is most appropriate for a specific area and the city given its top graffiti given its its natural are so it gets rid of the white lie and say get rid of the stream buffers the flood plains like all the areas where you can't build because we have restrictions on that and it looks at the area that's left and how we want to apportion to really get those good those high quality open spaces that you know people like can can use can go forward to the slide show may have been the last second to last one or that one so all of the over developed of the development but i'll tell you this i understand that would build residential if i didn't only three acres somebody could i could be wrong but we met on this well because somebody could put twenty seven units in my house as a mathematical number yeah they'd have to or they have to meet all the other standards as well that made proved challenging to do it so i have some serious concerns go to the i r s could be use i'm glad i own that land because if somebody was trying to put twenty seven acres in my backyard twenty seven units in those three acres i'd be up in arms should mention are you taking into account that possibility of twenty three units there so when you when we add up all potential homes in southeast quadrant we take into account his potential how that gets applied whether whether it actually ever whether all the t d r s gets older not it's not a question in the areas that are zoned like the property you just mentioned many units nacre thus far we're seeing it substantially below that so link road and goldenrod street are in that same district and they got built at about two units an acre in that district it because that's what the developer chose to do which brings up its own challenging questions of  when it was put into place there were more potential receiving lands then sending lands with the idea that not every single property is going to be built to its maximum density as as development has taken place and as a lot of it has been below the maximum well below the maximum then it is possible that the city could wind up in a place where there are changes the nature of the of the density so that it's lower than it was to be expected and if that were to happen again let's say it is subsequent development where it could be challenge so that you know if the development is is less dense right so there would back out  much two years that are needed so looking forward to other developments in the future here i could see where if there if there was sufficient legal and whatever groups that was taken there maybe you may end up with a surplus of are not marketing i'm i'm not an attorney so i'm not sure that i could be got into that somebody at some point could make an argument that that the city did a regulatory takings by not allowing them to make after nomic value the property whether that would be a successful argument is a whole other question and one would suggest that somebody who's taken more than one undergraduate legal class two possibly three communities that have done t d r s period stone does them but only in a very limited area related to stone mountain resort colchester has them but i'm but as i've as i've been told no districts and joint zoning in some cases there is one joint planning district in vermont in the matter valley waitsfield warren and the easton but they all have currently have their own separate zoning i believe i've read under statute that you could share it but i don't know that it's ever been tried here elsewhere i'd be happy to do some research and look to see elsewhere in the country if it's been used in that manner resolved in something like that are what what does the in order for t v are for it to function there has to be a demand for something beyond what can already be done somebody has to want to buy something and so  the question would be where is there a demand somewhere else in the city that exceeds the current allowances such that somebody would want to buy it and then converse lee looking to see what are the objectives of the objectives in the southeast quadrant is it to have more dispersed development is it to have more compact development in fewer areas and how do we deal with questions of equity in terms  of more compact development taking place in areas the city that are have a lower median income in other areas that are being that have a higher median income how that is done would need to land when you do the discuss regulations is do you look at the economics and do you hear from you know managers and about our budgets and the resources that we have we're in the city it's more expensive to service supposed to other parts of the city things like this that's a great question for those who were able to attend this summer i know several members of council were able to attend a great video presentation over majic hat by a gentleman by the name of gentlemen a cozy who was talking about that subject here and what's the long term cost benefits to a commune we we started those conversations with our various different departments everyone is a little bit different and so for example the fire department it's about people and welding units it's not necessarily about where they are the same thing on the police side there's more complexity in a larger building but there are tradeoffs to two other areas in the public works side it's a road like feral street is a very efficient road for them because if they plow it once and that's several hundred housing units it's a little more complex in an environment like that for fire because they have to have the equipment and the staffing and the training to be able to get into a four story building but we have started those conversation s with all of our departments and i think that the as jessica said from the very beginning in the conference of plan a lot of the goals have been to support areas like city center shelburne road  where it's a win win for the city in a lot of ways to follow up do we know if the school department in their you know visioning exercises they're thinking about that as well far reaches of our community that's a longer bus right we probably need more buses because everyone that means more cars because people don't want their kids on the buses for that line and so the new right i mean hundred cars well that's another piece if they are looking to either consolidate or build more i don't know i mean that's their vision in part that i mean we have some former vision nurse on  i don't know which or new york or what the ordinance is but i thought it was an interesting idea and great are there any other comments or questions from planning commission members i know we sort of hog the mike that shared with you mentioned yeah so there's another million gallons in the airport parkway wastewater treatment facility that's located over by the landfill the other counties that she had with him right in the trail so there's another million gallons that is owned by that and a million plus gallons is going to colchester or whatever different people or companies or facilities or governmental agencies but that's that's already gone so a million gallons of sewage is already not part of our ability to allocate to our own citizens because we've already given that the way to move the town the so the town of cold shoulder when it was but we could not it was real build a new facility for the price we sold the fore when the airport parkway facility was built it was built as a shared agreement between the two communities replacing an old one in coal chester so that redline has that you have information we need you so this slide and if we don't have that information that slide is useless to dinner so we have provided a memo an update to the city council in twenty fourteen and twenty sixteen on th subject and we did yeah and we're happy to do an update to that as well for twenty eight and what is that show it show we're above or below that sewage please that i'm answer i'm sorry thank you so what it shows  that the city has a projection based on current usage rates and based on how much the statement zooms every household will use which is two hundred ten gallons of water week's water per day of somewhere in below that projection right now do you know since that time we ran the most recent numbers of the last twelve months and our average daily flows are actually down from what they were the estimate from a couple years know right so the plant is measured on how much is actually going through it our projections are based on what the estimate is but the the plant is an actual like how much is going through it if the redline our capacity yes it's the kit it's the capacity of the belongs to south burlington for the two plants combined and with a lot of the new development the requirement is to have a lower flush toilet so we're using right so so right now every two bedroom household or above is estimated to consume two hundred ten gallons of waste water per day our public works director mentioned to me last week that the state is actually considering revising that downwards because what used to be called low flow is just what's installed now new new development there isn't a high flow which is it's it is the low flow today but we're so close to it now i mean i can imagine if we're going to add a thousand homes and add ten percent that we're going to be it will be right at that number and if we're right at that two point five four sorry and then the good to the three point five three how do we how do we how can sustainable how many homes and what your cost of the new facility oh how many homes use the two and a half million gallons that we're using right now there's about nine thousand households in the city and how many units like bedrooms with that probably eighty percent of the of the homes in the city are going to be two bedrooms and bathrooms or more so we have a million gallons left for six hundred versus the two and a half million and center i mean when i when i when talking about you know the other things that are really on the board are old form road or you know the i think you're the warden your point is is appreciated we're looking for those numbers we would like a million gallons represents about five thousand additional households not not including the nonresidential if you install just homes being built but i think that's one of the we need to understand if there's businesses or city center or you want to have that included in your planning so that you have the resources to expand that's two or capacity before we get to the point where you know did put in what the average flows to burlington have been so if you remember the phone and say prove it over these with aluminum so there's a bit of a bump there that's included technically it's not flown to our facility today but we put it in because we know that it's flowing several weeks it this chart only shows what is physically going through the plant today we do have in two thousand and sixteen we did a memo that projects both the approved and the future and we're happy to update that for you to as well we just didn't want to overwhelm with thirty more slides assuming thank you yeah i've tried the question if you go to the wall of corridor if you slide with the development is it's actually a lot clearer than this one i'd like you to tell me how from core on the left one would get to the quarter on the right three i don't know i mean if you if you are i don't know if you spent a lot of time you know checking the wildlife or but it's not going to happen that's not a while that quarter i think that research was showing that there's a north not appropriate corridors maybe for this meeting it is but i just want to say when you say appropriate or do you mean accurate both there's no way that the animals can't go north because they're going to burlington so they're not going to walk across eighty nine a moose the black bears the bobcats and my woods are not going into burrowing ten or the university across eighty nine going south it's a little bit easier going towards the east i guess that's east this direction is i'm looking in see here the left is the lake that are crossing shoulder ronan going down to the lake and so they only have one interaction to go that's get out south or east and that's it but those are not ways to keep wildlife in our communities and that is one of the things that i've read multiple times   in the twenty sixteen comprehensive plan it states intice appeared that the city's overall population will continually increase modestly through twenty nineteen and then level off by twenty twenty five at approximately eighteen thousand three hundred ten residents and what actually has happened according to the us census report following the population numbers for south burlington in twenty seventeen it's at nine ten so from twenty year two thousand to twenty seventeen the population increased by one point six eight percent and a year which was a total of forty two hundred and sixty two people and at that rate by twenty twenty five it will be three thousand five hundred  sixty more of them anticipated and that number comes from your twenty's sixteen comprehensive so i think that's something to really pay attention to  thank you you know just to just reiterate that the number is in the conference a plan it is the result of the mckibbin demographic forecast of what they anticipated would be the case i didn't put it in this chart because the methodology is are so different and given that the census is an estimate until until two thousand and twenty it it felt a little bit of apples and oranges which is why instead it just shows only what the plan reactive is not what the plans asked and forecast was i think you it is in there is as the forecast one last one and then i really do because we're continuing this conversation for two we're double counting in terms of the six hundred units that you said roughly where you said there were eight hundred on the slide but a lot of those have already been built so they're already within that sixteen hundred so the incremental from the slide is maybe half of that i can really see the numbers to it's a great point will make sure that we're we're not double counting any focus on make sure everyone's aware could be closer to like a have about half an hour for that for your presentation and then if there's questions and comments so thank you very much and would you please identify yourselves for the record and begin  have met numerous times to discuss our concerns with regard to the preservation of opening green spaces in our community in this presentation is the result of those meetings we value and want to protect our open land even though every city study report says we should preserve open spaces vision of the residents and as you can read here we are going to be taking our arguments directly from the comprehensive plan on the of the community experience in self pearlington it recommends a number of actions and practices that should be taken undertaken by the by the city so in particular we are concerned with the conservation of important naturally areas of the quality of life livability said and long term sustainability of the of the city sort of every aspect of life in our community and we feel that where are the parents to unsustainability that we have too much growth and in too much development and you can read here some of the major lives we're trying to make about city services the ability of the city departments to support the development  d the problem we feel there is with too much residential construction across the city in the current population we argue already exceeds what was anticipated to be its target population in twenty twenty five and so that and finally there's a negative impact on public works department not sustainable financially but we think they're not sustainable environmentally either and here are some of the changes that are being made that we really don't want looks like the area is being prepared for housing but stripped of natural resources like trees that we think are important to the sustainability of our community so we feel like development is taking priority over conservation  rehabilitate impaired waterways and we're also very concerned about the possibility of flooding services is going to increase the amount of storm or water runoff and lead to erosion and flooding and we feel like this is already beginning to happen paying attention to areas that are going to be eroding and we feel like development is being built in areas that could prevent these responses and we're not paying enough attention cleaning up water pollution alone is estimated to cost fifty million dollars inverse relationship between three canopy and childhood a  it has to do with bio diversity in our area and we're concerned about that as well we're also concerned about the quality of our agricultural soil and be agricultural areas in the city and concerned that we are paving over our fertile soil we're also concerned about our scenic views there were seventeen key scenic view ok sions identified but only six have been protected this is another area that is being developed is just heartbreaking specially given what was there before so we feel like  we want to remind our community that we took this climate pledge and it seems to me that we're not paying much attention to having made that  in addition i researched current conservation areas are disappearing yet development continues to be built in these areas again these maps are not terribly useful but if anyone wants a copy of this presentation you can see me after and i can make sure you get on so we republicans are concerned we're concerned in many areas but mostly areas they have to do with the beauty this is stain ability and the health of our neighborhood on election day students at st michael's college did a survey it wasn't a random sample it's not terribly scientific they're just asking people coming out of the voting  you can see that open space is something that people coming out of voting care deeply about sound yeah so we feel that more studies aren't needed here are some pictures of all the studies  poor native city open space plan clearly what we heard before suggests that people want to go in that direction and know that that and so we're saying we're asking that the city city's finest environmental assets should be preserved they're there they're beautiful and we want them to remain there for our children so the southeast quarter and objectives and strategies as listed in the comprehensive plan are ones we feel that should be paid attention to through zoning land conservation doors and other plants and areas but we feel like that doesn't seem to be happening we should plan better for a network of into interconnected open spaces to conserve in a calmer day ecological resources and enhance the biological diversity within the city  not destroy it trees you saw the picture earlier were all the trees were gone maintain the city's wildlife diversity maintain existing overall tree ca we feel like we have the tools the comprehensive plan is a good plan and that somehow it's not very well integrated with decisions about land use so we have some specific recommended actions that are here and you can read them they are directly from a comprehensive plan so we're not proposing anything new in our basic message is there's a dick's disconnect there's a disconnect between wife a comprehensive plan as vision by the citizens says we want and what we seem to do we allow development on lands designated as primary and secondary conservation areas we allow developments to be to wildlife survival i'm lands that contain wetlands act to do something so that there is a better connection between our vision and what we actually do areas of the city and during that time figure out how to go forward in a more judici first set it off unless someone like it hears a whole awful lot nothing is going to get better it's not so that's really the end of our  thank your ideas and concepts connected to specific parts of the comprehensive plan and i certainly appreciate you focusing on that because that is what is supposed to be guiding our development and our vision are there questions or comments by people on the council in almost half a century in town quite honestly thank you but it did away some of the concerns i had had that doesn't mean we're headed in the best possible direction what to do i guess becomes becomes a question but those are great information i don't really have any questions it's pretty top pretty clear yet i mean i would just say and as a observation i think anyone who's been paying attention and reading the local paper or the burlington free press and who hasn't been attending meetings or receiving emails like we have that even you know the general public would be aware that there is a level of concern in the community that has really you know reached the level of the council and  all these people and these concerns that are not new i've been hearing  absolutely and honestly if you if your group had to pull this together and brought this to the forefront i'm not sure we got to the point of asking for to put together what must have taking a little bit of time to put together that presentations that really brought a when we had interim zoning several years ago and it was really only actively followed up for a year and then there are spots on the council that changed and some of the work was ended  and really lost energy i guess to follow up and i think it's clear that the intentions of that interim zoning period was really to take a breath look at a lot of the things that were occurring or not occurring in the community and then really try to get information and task the planning commission to to align the land use development regulations with the comprehensive plan in the vision for the community and i think we did some of that and then we got bogged down with other things and didn't continue so many of the ideas or thoughts that you or the reality of what's happening in the community that you have articulated have come to pass in part because we didn't follow up as a council and as a community to really align those regulations so that what we say we want in the comprehensive plan which everyone and i have only heard good things about the comprehensive plan it's well written it's clear it's thoughtful it's certainly had strategies in all sorts of action items it took i think just because five years to work on so it's not something undertaken lightly it had a lot of public input and it's a good read really so i think we're at a spot where we really need to continue with getting our our rules and regulations aligned with a comprehensive plan and i really appreciate you putting it some of those things together in a document and for  your activism and interest it seems to me that you can you can encourage people to align that's true but unless you have some  limitations on process that make it impossible for people to make decisions that aren't aligned that we can and see for things to come out of line again will be there so for example i don't know what the process should be but it's but it's possible that you would have a process that says a decision about land use can't be made is not legitimate unless it somehow harkens back to the comprehensive plan and says and this is how that decision is aligned with a comprehensive plan or else that isn't a decision  that is there there's ways to make sure it legally that the comprehensive plan has to be paid attention to right well i think the process we have now a complaint of the the design the d r be the design review board that they couldn't say no to things because the regulations which are the rules for making a decision less want to go to court on everything you know they had to say yes when they believe that it was not necessary element or decision for the city it is the process we have briefly proposed some half hour but it's a many and i was going to go through where they established by importance of a grant from the vermont this side of site but there was a star player here we have not developed into except there's no factories here in vermont so that's the reason we're we're good on that and also to revisit the numbers on how to charge on it but to be interesting to see as somebody who lives very close to shopping road and drives the road a thousand times a day as we all do there's a lot of apartment buildings being built seventy unit buildings eighty hundred units behind the cinema etc that were right in the neighborhood where i live is more than shouldering the burden of growth  when we are of the subversive time we have to look at right i don't know wrong much detail staff wants to get into tonight about these recommendations i think we need to go through the report ok and look at the for the accuracy of some of the statements made where we're fortunate historically and at the forefront of standards today and in terms of storm water we few years ago adopted a citywide requirement that is below the state threshold in terms of the water volume that goes off the property and the amount of development the triggers a review and so we're proud on both of those fronts there are opportunities in rare circumstances where wetlands can be impacted but for class two weapons which is the higher quality ones they have to first get state permit before they'll be considered at the local level and we regulate class three weapons which are the lower quality the state doesn't regulate at all they are reviewed and an applicant has to make a convincing argument around the functions and values to the development of your board but we would love the opportunity to go through and tenants questions give you a status report on all those different points there's a lot in there which is great i think it's i would just also point out just as a sort of an aside i mean part of the development that's planned for city center will actually remediate current storm water runoff that is part of very  old development of central school and some of the other commercial buildings along williston road so in that respect i guess here is that that's an example of do development that will to share that with you that that's a commitment and an activity of the of this community at least in that that area so that's a plus positive thing changes and i think i want to say thank you to the city council great job in regards to purchase that is pending right now  we south burlington has always been very involved trying to heat and preserve as much open space as possible my dad was on the natural resources committee that was one of the things that they were very involved with trying to do could we do more probably but i think we've done a really good job we've we do what we can people complain about their taxes well it takes fans surviving four hours it takes funds to preserve them it takes funds to take care of all you have to remember all of that and also i'm sure there's a lot of people in here that if something happened to it was able to preserve as much open land as they would've liked to that a lot of you wouldn't even have your home  so we do have to have some development there was a great presentation natural resources committee is working on trying to help preserve and mitigate a lot of damage thought that could be happening and will be occurring stay involved be informed and help support the city council and the planning commission and the development of you committee that's the best way to support our city with trying to preserve what we've got and hopefully the development that will be coming up in the future will be done and the smart way that we can keep as much late as possible open and that's w when you showed the green space how much of that was a golf course i mean the golf course takes up a lot of land and that's not used by very many people except for the people that belong to the country guess my other question is where are the plans for tourists and steer when all these developments have all these people driving down the road because there are just small roads now and i am too but i'm originally from savannah georgia and i grew up in a very small town we had one school and eventually one internet elementary school in a high school so i know the growth you know that happens to a city and some of the good things and some of the bad things that come out of that i've lived in manhattan i've lived in atlanta i've lived in huge cities but it was south burlington specifically for my family because  small beautiful community with gorgeous abuse and to the ladies prior point i don't mind paying higher taxes to preserve that and to have this great little community that we have but my concern is that you know if you look at places like two page county chicago which has just boom done and had a ton of growth development their taxes have actually gone up their city services have gone down we don't know the crime rate i would have to see that happen to south burlington the cities that i've lived in and watch them grow i would hate to see it happen i happen to live in the southeast quadrant and i love walking it's just peaceful and they're open fields and it's beautiful and there's wonderful wildlife but if you put a hundred and sixty homes on top of that it's not can be beautiful anymore and my taxes are going to go up i'm going to get west city services i could just as easily move back to atlanta because we have some great views there we have to drive we've got traffic you guys are going to have traffic galore i have a sixteen year old he's learning how to draw and even today now without those houses we can't off and no one farms and make a left turn disappear in the mornings to take him to school i'm the one that ends up driving because it's like the rat race you know you're in tween cars but i know the gentleman asked her you know not to do an  i would ask that you do not not to do in this study i don't want to i mean your cost but at least a line i saw the planning committee you guys had a great presentation but and looks like you're doing a scorecard method for your working plan and you had three greens and a couple you know what i was and you had some significant reds particular lot of time to do that if you had a little more time and you could align with the cities comprehensive plans which the citizens want i think it would just be a better opportunity that the city doesn't turn into a mini atlanta on for city growth love the idea of city center absolutely love it build it grow it produce big density where big density makes sense the comprehensive plan to identify the places let's build there i have no problems with that but don't take away the views don't take away the wildlife corridors on dorset street when they started digging up the no wind farms that was a dead fawn in the road i've never seen you know an animal like that there's a bobcat that comes out of my neighborhood now during the day and you know the dusk that evening that's never happened to us in the five years but as we keep building that puts my kids at risk it puts our it i mean if we take away their habitat there's no place for them to come except into our neighborhood so i would ask you know  logical to build let's not take away their views and them but he's taken in trying to get yourself some time to unwind and to get your scorecards mostly in the green so you're ready to go and you make sure it's aligned with a comprehensive plan and some pearlington can state is beautiful little town with how taxes but still attract the people that want to be here because of the community and what you have thank you very much  the southeast quadrant beautiful views from and so forth and one of them came up with the idea of a golf course in order to preserve the long vistas and if that wasn't done you're afraid you're all going to get filled in it is all going to get filled and we're going to lose it and so when we finally got a contract with someone to do the golf course everyone city council city you know the planning commission was just delighted so i just wanted to say that we've come a long ways  about i first really appreciate everybody's sort of enthusiasm for being here and i love any of the city council meetings like this and all of the hard work that goes into all of this and i really love to hear the idea of stepping back and thinking about what we're doing and how it's reflecting the comprehensive plan because i know well how much work how complicated is it goes into building and also how when we find that we address one issue we actually create another and so to me that one of the things that sort of i just wanted to mention specifically as we've grown up was if we if we have housing we had cars and then we talk about a transportation study which where i know leads to the concept of the east west connector is through the southeast quadr and east west connecting roads through the southeast quadrant will alleviate some of the traffic but it will begin to direct impact on the wildlife corridors so i think sometimes when we look at the different studies that we have available they're sort of done in silos and would be great to sort of bring them together in terms of how one solves one problem might create another and as we're thinking about that specifically one of the things that we've mentioned in different scenarios and different spaces sort of again and again is that concept of what how do we strategize for east west connector roads through the southeast quadrant and what's in the comprehensive plan today and in the official map today can be a relic from a different time and we have lots of different groups have brought this up again and again i hope that everyone just mindful of the kinds of concerns that have been raised about the east west connectors and in the last comprehensive plan one of the new strategies that was added specifically was to stick take a step back and look at how adding new roads through some of these wildlife corridors and protected green spaces in that area would have a negative impact or a positive impact depending on which way you're looking at it and i just wanted to bring that up specifically because with that black li working very hard over the last year to learn quite a bit about my new home i like the other woman actually just relocated from atlanta georgia with my family and we did so with great intention we have lived there for many many years moved to asheville north carolina for a while but also had an explosion of its population moved back to atlanta for a couple years working at the at the same place both time i saw a fifteen minute commute turn into a thirty minute commute turn into a fifty minute commute this is three and a half miles i drove to work over just a fifteen year period and it happened with a lot of medium and high density housing they came into an area a wonderful community that really exploded over a short period of time with really poor regulation and management i understand like i get it i think i felt quite honestly a little naive and a little selfish at the same time coming in tonight so i just landed here a year ago and i have these expectations about what the quality of life is going to be like and i understand that you know there's economic viability that people have to have homes that you need that the places grow but at the same time i very intentionally with my family chose south burlington as opposed to other places we were looking at the country because we could get the jobs we wanted but we could also most importantly offer our family the quality of life that we wanted to we did not have their quality of life in atlanta we paid high taxes there we pay higher taxes here and we knew that was going to happen but we felt like the tradeoff was worth it and then what i feel like is a little bit of a bait and switch because when we came here we were you know so a couple things first of all when when we were planning to move here you know inevitably the two things we often heard were from their folks in the south oh my god says the prettiest state in the i mean in the whole country oh that place is so beautiful either there all the time we whenever i can get there because i have family near there we're all we had a wedding there but i could never live there is it's too cold and i was like yes that's what keeps the population down you know and so that's one thing and then secondly always hearing about how smart vermont for and so you know to come and land and within one year hear that there's a huge development coming out of spirits where there's a big one coming off of dorset and nolan farms it  shocked me like i got a little concerned and i felt a little guilty like i said because the other woman said i'm here because there are houses built that's why i can be here but i also like i said came here because realtors and people are you  b m and people in south burlington said yes it's true vermont is smart guess what south burlington is really really smart because they preserve green spaces and they preserve the land and they know how important it is to take care of their environment and that's the care about the quality of life that's why we chose south burlington we looked at several other places we chose every month which is south burlington to get away from the fifty minute commute to get away from the concrete the congestion on the streets  children feel safer so we could drive we have traded in some of the economic benefits that we could have had other places because this is where we want to be and i've been doing my best as a new citizen to try to learn i mean i have learned so much here tonight from everybody you spoke to him i've been reading actually recently history books about vermont trying to understand the politics because of how it can be not just a taker in burlington and south really into the mind but also give  how to be a participant in my new community and one of the quotes i read recently in a book i was reading i really thought was great it's a short little thing apparently from a vermont schoolgirl says i love vermont because the trees are close together and the people are far apart i love people i don't see and i came here to get away from people but i take them to here to atlanta georgia it feels like the people are far apart in just the right distance there's breathing room when i drive i mean i get giddy when i cross over speer sometimes and i don't even see a current either direction on early saturday morning that would never have even got a four am where i lived before and see a car so i just want to say please please please be what i was told you were by our country and by the people who live here are smart and creative and innovative in protecting our quality of life here because i really want to stay here i want to live here for the rest of my life so that's all i have to say and i hope it doesn't come across as being a new greedy person wanting what you've had for so long but it is really very important to me and i  understand growth has to happen but just can we please thank think a lot about what you do first and i trust that our leadership here and citizens that are speaking tonight will have impact  i'm thrilled that it's going to be on a website where i can study it and i was also struck no i hope i don't misquote you in the other paper the article about  developed it could have another two hundred twenty four or fifty four units on it and you said that is not sustainable in terms of fire police public works etc it would not be financially sustainable for the city to have that addition well we're going to have loads of additions if i took notes properly so my question is this could we just take a breather could we do some interim zoning or something and let's actually project what all of what we've already committed to what it would need to be sustainable for all of the city services and what kinds of impact it might have on transportation or other things i just think we need time to do that they put a lot of time in the presentation tonight but we can't just keep demanding this this sort of information this is hard work and i just would urge you to give us in going for our concern is that we've already exceeded the population goals that are stated in the caucus a plan that there's just not going to be resources to to accommodate that and ultimately we will all pay the price and likely you know we will see taxes go up as a result that generally when you have development studies have shown time and time again that it adds to the tax base yes but the infrastructure that's needed to support that generally think one of the things which i just hearing from everybody over and over again is that we're concerned that we have sufficient resources to handle growth where there would be you know sewer roads school fire police and i was actually  rather concerned actually seeing some of the comments that we don't have sufficient resources to cover the police and the fire expenditures in that were common in the presentation and one of the things i'm really concerned about is as to taxes if we look at the last ten years if we look at the city's tax rate and how quickly things increased it is increased at three times the rate of inflation over the last ten years three times the rate of inflation so the point is if we were just increasing with inflation the city portion of the tax rate would start with the three it starts with a five this is a big issue for comparison the school's tax rate has been increasing with inflation over the last ten years yet many people say that the school's spending is not suspect sustainable but the city is going at three times that rain and so we've seen here a growth of ten percent in the noun amount of housing we're seeing that we've already got approvals for ten percent more which is what we're expecting for us to have city center to be successful we need a significant increase in the amount of value which is put on those properties and it raises the question of do we have the assets to do this we have said with city center that this can be done with no new taxes with no new taxes but we're already having trouble funding what we've got and i'm really concerned about this going forward i wish i could say do this or do that but these are just my thoughts i think it's important i'm not sure that you've looked or seen all these numbers thank you for your  ok we'll move on to item eleven this is a discussion of possible action on a resolution to request a public hearing on draft interim bylaws and councilor emory yeah and i will just preface a little bit my remarks with just some some history in two thousand and twelve i was on the council and i voted against interim zoning at the time and for various reasons i think that the most prominent reason for me was that i sensed that the community was strongly divided and i was very nervous about you know a very divisive issue dividing the community and leading to a backlash and that is in fact what happened i was also concerned with the leadership at the time in the city and did not feel confident that it was going to be successful as it turned out there were wonderful studies performed in effect studies are required so if we do go ahead with interim zoning we need to explain the reasons why we need this time of study ok so i want that to be clear to  everybody so studies were performed and they were done diligently but because political will was lacking they did not lead to any i would say tangible benefits which is regrettable however the studies are there and we should put them to good use and we are putting them to deduce as best we can i also want to say that when i got back on the council two thousand and fourteen so i got off two thousand and twelve and i got back on in two thousand and fourteen i was faced with a reality that i that had altered a little bit when i got off in two thousand and twelve we were coming off of you know the recession of two thousand and eight and rebuilding i would say just a clearer structure and i say format for budgeting that i felt was was moving in the right direction and in two thousand and fourteen when i got back i felt that that was still in place and that there was real integrity to the way that things were budgeted that we weren't you know borrowing money from this ledger and putting it over here which i think just leads to  sustainability to be quite honest with you if you were able to plan and that's in fact what we put into place were capital improvement plans and human resources improvement plans and i saw that and i was like one of the well beginning  almost three years ago i started feeling that we were on an a path where i had to perk up my ears and pay more attention i was running in two thousand and sixteen and i included in that campaign platform what i had heard the fire chief and our public works director say to the council that development had to really be carefully considered because more and more growth was going to lead to a tipping point where our city services and the burden on our side or existing staff and equipment was not going to be sufficient and that we would have to increase not just you know three times the cost of living or the cost of living but even more acutely than that in order to cover the shortfall and since that time that is only i think increased i have seen them before me now many times since then and we have consistently had to put aside things on our c capital improvement plan put aside things on our human resources improvement plan to the point where we had as was shown here tonight we had one of our departments had say you might as well throw that  before we didn't have that we had our vehicles replaced more regularly and this is of great concern and if this is news to you i'm sorry it is certainly something that was held in public session that was stated in public session and that has raised alarm bells in my head for quite some time i am also very aware that we are not the only revenue collecting government body here we have the school board and they are providing an invaluable service required service for us if we are going to be a smart state we need to continue to be a smart state right and i'm a flatlander as well so i was i was very glad to hear vermont's reputation when i moved here with my own family i live in a traditional neighborhood just so you all know i live over in the northeast quadrant so i live right near chamberlain school i love it because i love my neighbors first of all i have a yard i want to quarter a lot and i walk to the bus and i take it to work every day and i do not put any c o two as little as possible  when i go grocery shopping into the atmosphere or take my daughter actually to soccer at our veterans memorial park what i want to say in addition to those things is that when we are hearing things here on the council about what our committees are working on and we are hearing things from researchers from you b m especially  about the need for fordable housing the need for to maintain our force blocks the all of these things and i know that these things are going to bubble up to us one of these days i don't know how to balance these things and i feel that given the economic burden that we are going to have to self and we heard just at the beginning of the meeting tonight that the initial discussions for this year's the upcoming fiscal year budget is going to be tough that the increases so far are going to be kind of hefty for us to left and when i hear the need for affordable housing and we need to think about the forest blocks with regard to act one seventy one which our legislature passed and when i think also about the studies that show certain types of development being more a drain on the tax dollar and on our city services than others and i just thought i put this out there and i'm happy to to to to make this  hampshire new york maine etc so the northeast and for residential development that brings in a dollar of revenue for the requirement of city services costs about average a dollar thirty one for business development for every dollar of revenue that they bring in the city services costs about thirty one cents for the ok for agriculture for every dollar of revenue that they bring in their property taxes ok they their cost the city services is roughly about the same as business sometimes lower sometimes higher depending on the community in question nevertheless this is a trend that was across the board consistent and that says to me we have to think very carefully about what types of development the density of developments thinking about our need for affordable housing ok think about where it should be located ok so we can put that cost benefit analysis and we could think also about what benefit the land provides to us now as we know from the u s d a study the agricultural working landscape actually brings more into our city coffers than takes out of them all right but there is there are also studies that show that for every dollar we spend on conserve land we get nine dollars back ok and that's for water filtration and all kinds of services that nature provides for free right so i think that given the alarm bells that have been going off in this room for the last three years i i i did it on my has to be a public discussion and that's why on my own i drafted i put on all these thoughts here on the sheet of paper and called for these two studies now i see this not as  a finished product i see this as a first step and i'm the one making it and letting there be discussion of course i would suggest that this body if we determine that this is a step that we should move ahead on that we should think about what we have already agreed to is a faddy such as city center that that is a priority and that is the type of development and the density of development that has been vetted that has been voted with that i just want to know that i do not see this as a final document i see this as a way to bring this discussion into the open and i did my best to get what i see as the economic factors both tangible and intangible there on the page but from a process perspective were the board that receives  have a draft ordinance to impose in the interim something in order to warn the public hearing there would need and for it to vest at the point of the warning a interim by allowed would listed in a couple of studies and then there's some other language to relate to different sections of the law so this could be the first step counsel counsel takes there are a few routes that council could decide to go down which is one having and additional meeting a special meeting or at the next regular meeting a discussion about what the buy a lot would be or what's happened in the occurred in the past is you know maybe direct to counselors or or a counselor to draft a by law with the city attorney consistent with the purpose statement in some resolution and to put that up for a public warning for a date certain date certain could be a time of the council's choosing at some point after the public hearing obviously for you know november maybe the november regular council meeting sorry city attorney so i think we can discuss whether this purpose captures some interest stories or to the council whether we have other options to explore or if interim zoning you know if we want to build forward with that to we want what are the components that we might want to add to this in terms of i think i think some of that may relate to paul's responses to the presentation that we have so that we understand what conflicts there might be and we have the most accurate picture possible which i don't think we quite have complete right now at least i don't because he said there are some areas that are not you know that don't match what what you see  as the most accurate picture although they did their research and came up with what they feel is the most accurate i think we need one more session of discussion in order to decide exactly what should might possibly be in a resolution to be able to go forward so i don't think we're going to figure that out responsibly and i'd hate for them to be presented as fact when in fact they're not right so that's really important to the equation here because in here and and i appreciate that because there are a lot of perceptions around the city of of lots of things that are going on where there is open earth and trees have been cut down in houses going in and some of those places are not in the southeast corner right but it's important before we make a decision to push the pause button that we understand exactly what the consequence is going to be for i mean we think we know that i think paul pointed out that there are developments that are already have the preliminary plas admitted they will be affected right and and i'm i'm assuming that this proposal would then still not affect those at all and so the point is then the question is what and i think paul had a map that sort of showed what was left in the southeast qua so there's not a lot left i mean you can argue that there's a ton left right but in terms of what's developing will there's not a lot left and so the question becomes at what price are we going to spend time and the cities money trying to figure out for those people that own that land whether or not they're allowed to develop it right because we have an l d r set that defines exactly what can happen we have a comprehensive plan and i'm sure that there are lots of comprehensive plans out there that the to not implement precisely because the l d r i mean the comprehensive plan is a vision the l t r is a legal document a legal document is what drives the darby and what drives all of the the submissions by the applicants to fight to figure out how they're to build what they're going to build and how the stormwater is going to you know be designed and where they can put the houses where they can't because of wetlands and so on and so forth and where the streets are going to go right and how the infrastructure is going to be built and whether the police department says that they can turn a fire truck around at the end of that street or not right so then i appreciate the arguments that that residential growth is more expensive than the other growth but i also appreciate the fact that this city has a lot of financial obligations that go simply beyond whether there's money for a you know the capital improvement plan right so there are some obligations that are driving our taxes i mean we had to take out an eight million dollar loan for the pension fund a few years ago and we're paying a top interest rate on that we've been taking money out for city center reserve fund for a while so there are a lot of drivers here that go beyond you know what the possibilities are for the expense of future developments but i appreciate your concern i appreciate your argument i i'm just not ready to jump off that cliff yet because i think that that you're you literally would be jumping off a cliff and the two things i do not want is for the city to be embroiled in a in a series of suits which we have been in the past and they have been expensive and but you know i want to give due diligence and i want planning zoning to please vet this first so i just i want to read funding or full penny so that we can restock that open space fund so that all position us to to acquire parcels as they come free in the years to come it's worked really well in the past so we borrowed against it but i think the whole penny parks a penny for open up in the southeast part of the southeast water does not look like southeast quadrant and i grew up and i'm i'm accepting of that to some extent but i want to keep the grief for my kids i want my kids to have open fields and play spaces farms and all that and i fully supportive about being proud for us but we have to have the right picture and do it right and based on what you know taking up what you said which was what we were talking about how i wonder if it's possible for for you and  whoever you can get to work with you you know we look at you as a minister minister for planning tools and there's that list it starts with a line land development you know i'd like to hear what your thoughts are on each of those items and what the priorities are and where you see the biggest problems are before as tim said we jump off a cliff which if we're in real if if it turns out gee this isn't going to work out then we may have to jump off a cliff but i think we need one more good long discussion section session to get us there and this is very hard to do in an open and open meetings and for not now that it's an open meeting in meetings and forums that are only take place on a scheduled we don't have a retreat is what i'm saying if we could take the next three days and sit down and figure this out to be great but we can't but i do think we need in light of the two presentations that were made and i would remind counsel that making a major presentation to you at your next meeting october fifteenth sustainability issues and he put that off  a there's a lot going on so i don't know that this can happen immediate response in line by line to the citizens generated presentation is worthy maybe not of the time and i think that what we need to determine is whether or not the tools we have our disposal will make that cliff less steep and we will actually survive it that's the question i think that's before us to be quite honest comments from the public yes it was oh i'm sorry i did not see your hand i saw his face much earlier but you did i'm sure i did i saw her because i could see his so they're both going to go over both trying to get to go  information to put before the council for informational purposes it may or may not be perfect as it was presented and certainly everyone would welcome clarification on certain points about it but it has nothing to do with holding up this interim zoning action that you might or might not take what i'm in favor of doing this i feeling that probably you can't do it tonight i understand that but i don't think there's many minutes to waste before we do this because we've already sense that the train is out of the station we already have several very big developments on our plate that that we can't really absorb now we can't wait for the next ones that we don't know about yet to be on the agenda of the planning commission and or the d r b before we act  we need to get this going if you're going to do it at all if you do it at all and i hope you do there's a couple of things that i thought we needed to buy time to do that i don't see here everything that i see year is fine but tom mentioned that we might explore this new york idea that that's a great idea we need to explore the t d r s and the biggest one of all that i've been hearing throughout this discussion is that we need to somehow better align our l d r's with our comprehensive plan and maybe i'm missing it but i have i'm not seeing that here in so many words so to me that's job one so that that to me is job one and and these other things would be items two three four maybe five we need to do studies and interim zoning is to give us time to do right but studies is kind of a funny word you know i mean you can see you can study the the lineup of the comprehensive plan with the all the r s you can get a consultant to help you see where the mismatches are where the pitfalls are that what that to me would be a study and that seems to me you know completely in line with what we need some time to do but if we just keep chugging away the developments are just going to keep on rolling and we've i think demonstrated pretty well tonight that we can't let that happen indefinitely so thanks albrecht on the issue of those studies in assembly brought up the previous studies done in the last norm zoning but then things politically change the market changed political will wasn't there i think justice revisiting those studies were the guards to mr kaufman's comment about a number of time this is the public's process the public's dollars that are being spent there i don't see a problem with the all day retreat if you want to get it right i mean right right but if if it's if it's a public process that's worse than what's worth the time to get it correct it's worth large public meetings many of the folks in this room were very involved in school discussions when they wanted to consolidate all the schools and all that and that led to a lot of good communities discussions which lead to good inclusive outcomes of all viewpoints  city so if you're going to take the time to do this if you're going to time to put a hold on people's prado live in the southeast quadrant i live in a twelve hundred square foot cape over on proctor avenue i don't have a view of the mountains i don't have any conserve lands bought with my tax dollars and your tax dollars in my area so the if you're going to do that if you can say oh parcel or whatever whatever the zoning bylaw is going to affect then you might as well just apply to everybody no house additions no pools no fences no no interior modifications to further improve propert so if you going to do if you're going to treat a certain class of landowners and say we are going to put your property rights on hold than do it across the board well to respond to that it's for the environmental purposes now  avenue i believe behind proctor avenue there is some natural land just like there is between victory drive and mills avenue in my neighborhood all right i haven't eaten which is really working and talking about rice would you know i don't know  no i don't know its connection to who it belongs to but i know someone who walks their dog there so there's a little sliver of city in land right at the corner i don't know who belongs to i don't know but let me continue so again that the studies are there the can the capacity is there to address this issue that the doing interim zoning seems a fairly strong measure as someone who assisted the city with development review during in arizona it was a really awkward process of this whole thing the d r be looking at something then the city council looking at some as two track system for no real end because the d r b s development is supposed to be done by what the l d r's say not what some with all due respect to people  served in the d r be with somebody in the army thinks what they likes what they feel is appropriate it sets the ground rules of the ground rules or are so back to the issue of the concern of here if the concern is the pace of development in the southeast quadrant then change the zoning costs of different types of development i mean one of the challenging things from a land use perspective and as a planner with the southeast quadrant is it's a giant subdivision in the in the sense of the word it's a giant retail area you've got no commercial very little a little bit of that new rice developments got a couple buildings there which is nice but so when you talk about traffic i mean i have to look at all the folks here from dorset and spirit all over the quater who come over to m of the woods whether it's price shop or hannaford shells or come up to another market in the woods to go to two to go to healthy living there's no services down there so if you really want to look at what is the sustainable development from a cost standpoint which is the city concerned about you'd zone more of the southeast quadrant for commercial that's that's instead of having all the quadrant drive everywhere else to wherever they go i'm just saying from an academic professional standpoint that's what but if you are if you were to do it from correctly right you do if you were doing it correctly you'd have more commercial services there's a people of the driver you'd have a school out in that neck of the woods which has been discussed please not be interrupted by members of the public i'm happy to have council members interrupt you it's your prerogative but thank you i well i will say is that there is open industrial zone land there and there there is little by little businesses that are there that are opening there but i can't determine who's going to move in and what type of business will move and that's not what we do and with regard to the and i think that our notions of you know how to fix these these things are really you know non knowledgeable and i think we have to be very careful a perspective on a plane it's not going to happen but it's ok to mention but well i mean i remember interesting lee and two when i was a grad school uva i'm sixteen years ago talking to the developer of self village and there's no more surprises not so much in the economy show that didn't fly it wouldn't fly today but sixteen years ago things look a whole lot different and just as a point we talk about we've been talking about traffic a whole lot and i have to come out on to spear street opposite nolan to get out of there and that's there's not much of south burlington left below pheasant way and so virtually all of those cars are coming up from towns to the south and there's nothing we can do maybe yeah helen has the same problem not that i'm a developer i own anything you know i'm like you don't want to know what little i have but i only saw it because monica was kind of posted on the community watch page and then i bugged paul about a wednesday agenda coming out stuff agenda came out on friday i aspirations in the southeast quadrant whatever the matters however what i would say is that there's been a lot of discussion today on on the comprehensive plan and there was one slide that that you know provided a bunch of the the like any good democratic process there's a lot of balances and compromise that to be made affordability housing are other important aspects of the comprehensive plan that need to be weighed as well secondly when i think of in terms owning  i think of it as an emergency measure in which it is in fact and when i think of more urgency measures i think you take an emergency measure because you don't have any other alternatives available to you i believe we have a process that's available to us if we think that there's issues with the land of el regulations we have a process in place that we can take advantage of these larger projects don't sneak up on us for the most part the development projects  the development project their work currently underway on took seventeen months of permitting locally to to pull our final permits so you know there was a lot of a lot of public process we had dozens of meetings we had hundreds of  residents both neighbors and other folks throughout the community me and we discussed them we met with them privately we adjusted our development to to try and improve for the overall betterment of the community i don't think anybody came out saying you know this is the best project ever i didn't get one hundred percent of my way and i don't think anybody got that i think again that's a democratic process  i think that there's a number of folks in this room tonight that there are a number of new folks to town which is a great thing but i think there's also a number of folks in this room council amery alluded to this earlier who went through the previous in terms owning process and i don't think it was one that any of us should undertake white lead moving forward still slightly scarred from it and i think there are some other folks that feel the same way it was a divisive in polarizing time in the city and i wouldn't say that anybody should go through that process again lightly and i would say that we should take every possible step to work this out through the available measures to us before take an emergency one like in terms of thank you thank you very much any other comment ye if you keep putting this off more more things are going to be approved and then it's too late i went through our be meeting and they said oh don't worry dorset meadows is only in scared you know you have to worry well guess what you know it's there they can't take it back so i think time is of the essence and we need to act now otherwise they'll be a million petitions asking for whatever you know all the developers they want this they want and then it's too late so it's already too late for some but again and the other thing is i am from bucks county pennsylvania and you don't want to know how this turns out it is not pretty thank you thank you jon i think are considering seriously going back to interim zoning i would advise against it for reasons that have already been stated but please do not do it for the city as a whole if you want to focus on certain areas of the city like the southeast quadrant we could probably survive that but if we we have other issues other than all of the issues that were eloquently listed tonight and one of them is certainly supporting our economy by having more portable housing and more development of the type that also pays its way commercial commercial or that's true we have city center that we don't want to put any delay on and so please be very cautious about how far you go with any kind of delay or moratorium on development keep it local to where the issues are most critical if you have if you're going to do it at all thank you thank you ok so i get a sense from the council that you would like a little more information from hall we also will have it our next meeting this is his sustainability presentation which does out obviously a sense of urgency something's got to change because i've seen noticeable change in the last handful of years and it's very worrisome and you know my wife says to me the pavan oversell pearlington said we can't let that happen and we can't let that happen we do need answers to a few more questions it's hard to do as i said a few minutes ago in short meetings although this one's getting long that's good tool times but i think first i'd like to hear kevin you said there were several points that are in here that need further explanation i'd like to hear those explanations pawed like to see paul cabin city i'd like to see what you feel the priorities are in order to get what's going on what you would call under control i'll say that i have for the folks here and you probably sense that i have a lot of faith in the work that paul does i think tom we need another paul he's extremely factual based everything that he presents is based on what he perceives as as the as the proper facts and i think that's really good for the city so i'd like to know what you see as the priorities in order to get this what you might call rampant development under control because although i'm on the other side of spirit street i shudder at the thought of what is it called then i shudder to think what that's going to do to that to that area and then i'd like to hear how how the planning department before we get into a situation that we might later regret i'd like to hear from planning department how you think we can best go about getting things under control i'd like to hear your plan but i don't think we can take months to figure this out we've got to have something going i don't have a whole lot of patience to go much further are we before we might have to do something like an interim by law for the southeast quadrant because we haven't been able to identify quickly what steps we're going to take to get it under control without doing that and that's kind of how i see it but we don't have all those answers yet some of that make sense to you when you're overflowing plate and let me and cry ask you a question just from an interim or by a lot perspective i could ask you later but folks are sitting here does that have to be for one to two years or can you do like three months and then and then revisit what's so out so it's up to up to two years i believe what the so you can you can put any date or any specific time on it repeat and then renew it or not there has to be a public hearing to enact and there also has to be a public hearing to repeal so there would be one and two years is the longest that i can go for but you could go a handful of months if you wanted to potentially as i would say well i think and i'm fine if you want to have another meeting in a week to work on this further so we don't keep dragging it out that's that's fine by me i love no dinner on monday night well i think ideally it would be a meeting of its own so that we don't go to midnight i think that minds are clear yes and i think it's just fair for the public who is interested that they don't have to wait til ten forty five to get to i think there's that does that make some sense and i don't my fellow councillors does that make any you see that but i just i am the only thing i don't know how much staff can say this is how to stop rampant develop i don't think that word would ever questions of regulation but the policy decisions have to be hugely here but can you recommend what the priorities might be so there's a much more clear as possible picture to hear his thoughts i mean you're the guys that are in it every day was a book and we asked the planning commission to do so i mean they are working on the p u d s they're eighty percent done that does address i think some of the issues we've talked about least they believe it will make it more creative and you know have more open land that isn't just what is there it's not going to please these  well i'm just saying that's one thing but i but but what i was saying is that can we ask the planning commission to come up with a list of priorities they have a number of things already on their plate that's in our pleasure anyway right they would be better physicians staff would be well that's right i'm thinking they're better position than the staff but i guess if the council wants they think are the tools to somehow mitigate it right and in the end so the only interim that i would ask for is that the planning commission sort of put on hold whatever else they're working on a list is relevant to this and tell us what they think is a process to try very that is what i was saying if you will what are their priorities and what are the steps that they would need to take to i just offer to us that we should do well the ours and we should do you know isn't and these are political decisions we've asked paul about the tools that are available to us that is something that we could do is we were talking about process and the tools that were available to us we discussed sewer allocation which wasn't necessarily in effect to and there was basically in zoning that seem to be left there's also always the planning commission as we as we know right but these things in the planning commission take time and something that i think would be and are better interests were we to go the interim zoning route which is a political decision based and i think budget concerns and i hear i heard tonight that they're starting to look at  the city services and looking at planning from an economic perspective based kind of you know that social meeting that was held in july and that i couldn't attend unfortunately but i think that my goal for interim zoning would be to do that in an accelerated rate and then to take it to the planning commission and say now let us put these into man development regulations based on the outcome of the study right because they can't do that study and we have a very qualified person who presented something magic that knows how to do these studies and i think in my view our situation is calling for i don't i don't i don't agree that it's a political decision i think it's a responsible decision we have to do responsibly what's in the best interest of the people of south burlington and right now the folks of south burlington are extremely worried about the pace of development and i include myself in that but i don't see that as a political  or my students we are all political political is based on policies and policies is this is the city and city state if we're going to go back to ancient greece and so political is when the citizens get together and they put forward their opinions and their perspectives and their good reason and all of those good things and then as such a decision is taken at that decision is based on that political discussion i just yes professor  going to be a responsible political answer skywriting we have i and if we can't cite a clear road to some quick action to respond to these concerns and what has to happen then i am probably in favor of the zoning bylaw but we have a few more questions to answer before we get there and i think and i hope that's acceptable to you f because we don't have all those pieces in place tonight and you don't take off without all the pieces in place so what we have scheduled in two weeks is the sustained sustained filippi presentation which addresses so information or this is a winner delivery discussion and to my mind had to do with our sustainability goals with regard to solar and things that don't necessarily have to do with  so i don't see the direct relationship unless i'm mistaken paul what did you believe you were putting together i thought it was going to be as much services  understand and the timing if we have a special meeting next monday tuesday or tuesday rather then we won't have that person patient this it will be ready but we will have some answers to some of these questions and how does that get this close or enough close enough to coming down on whether we're going to have a step  what will we learn and discuss next tuesday that will get us closer to making a decision well let me just put this question out there are you able to say which areas of the city would be so so that's a that's a good question to ask because that's how we can control the density within the development there still may be t v r s you still may have you know blocks of ten town homes together or whatever it might be but they're still go unhappy about the fact that that open land that was there before now gets developed correct me if i'm wrong you don't want any new development in the southeast quadrant above and beyond the permits or the developments of that already have been only in the southeast that hasn't been proposed yet is that true or false ok so that's what i want to hear so that is totally inconsistent with what the l the r s and the comprehensive plan has today so what's the compromise of the compromise the change in density a change in arrangement on those those properties by robert well then so then then that that begs the question for the money land trust and for our open space fund we just spent six hundred we're going to spend six hundred six thousand dollars to try and gain all of the conservation easements on over a hundred and how many acres of total a b and c every three th seventy five you've acquired so i don't know how much more finance we can push towards that goal of conserving more space other than outright going and buying the land from people that we don't even know if it's for sale yet well i entertain having either to continue the discussion in two weeks depending on our agenda or if once we get the sustainability and some of the  comments from paul about the presentation or plus since you've asked we could then have a special meeting if we need to focus just on what are our options what we want to do one of which might be very short meeting next week for other business totally unrelated to this so that we don't get bogged down in two weeks with regular businesses that are eating right after that which also through which will mean we have enough stuff in a week from now that question for the long term of the regulations or the actions of the city not just the interim zoning but the but the long term the afterwards is what does what does success in southeast quadrant look like and i'm anyone have a problem with the budget schedule  quire i think we have one more item that doesn't involve interim zoning or anything is the council comfortable with at least what would be nice is to agree to one listed for november second should say november sixteenth has nothing to do with any action that you need to take but i'd like to get that posted on our web yeah i moved them except to the fiscal year twenty general fund budget schedules proposed by t midnight then after midnight