person in this country is an increasingly difficult thing to do that middle class people feel like they're on a treadmill where the speed has been increased and increased and increased and they're struggling hard to stay in the same place people who are fortunate enough to have a job have health insurance and get a raise right off and find out that any race that they got was more than consumed by the increase in their out of pocket health care costs cost of educating a son or a daughter or oneself or one's spouse continues to go up with very little relief in sight whether it's your fuel bills your property taxes your auto insurance your mortgage it is very difficult to make ends meet many of us believe that one of the antidotes to the middle class squeeze is the power of collective bargaining the ability to bargain collectively with your peers at work in order to achieve a better result record would indicate that union workers make about thirty percent more than their brothers and sisters who are not any union that virtually the odds of having a health insurance if you're in a union are remarkably higher than the odds you're not same is true of the pension having said all that the purpose of the employee free choice act is not to encourage more membership dues the process of the employee free choice act is to give employees of a given a given bargaining unit wish to be represented in collective bargaining they have the right to do so this is by no means a new idea under the labor statutes of this country in fact the idea of majority sign up has been in the law for over six decades the major change that the employee free choice act snakes in the jar the side of is that unlike the present situation where if you have a majority signed up for representation the in player has a veto power and can force that decision into an election under the bill that mr miller has proposed yes a majority of employees expressed their will yes there is a finding by the national labor relations board that these are valid signatures mediant they are uncle rushed and they are voluntarily given if there are such a finding then the union is recognized and there is prompt an expeditious progress towards the negotiation of the first contract so there's nothing new about this now certainly has been here can cern's race today about the importance of secret ballots in choosing whether or not to have a union represent workers this is an issue on which there is significant disagreement among our friends here on the subcommittee and in the fall committing and i would assume the full congress as well i would indicate today that the record will show that there is no secret that there is a ron and negative history of coercion in the conduct of you and elections under the existing there are strong feelings on both sides and i'm i'm certain that those strong feelings will the vigorously expressed today we welcome that it is my both my host and my intention that in our vigorous pursuit of the points of view that we advocate that we will do so respectfully toward each of the witnesses obviously toward each other as colleagues on the committee and where we disagree will disagree agreeably we're going to proceed with onset of this congress that there could be times when we would disagree but we would do that without being disagreeable and this is certainly going to be one of those days because from the very outset i couldn't disagree more with what this bill is proposing to do the fundamental premise is to examine a bill that's cleverly called the employee free choice act and i would argue that this is anything but free choice there would have placed a system today in which workers are empowered to cast their vote on whether or not to unionize in a thoroughly monitored federally supervised private ballot election it would replace us with an  regulated i'm monitored carjack process in which everyone everyone or workers employer his coworkers the union knows how he or she votes my colleagues know that i'm not prone to  hyperbole maybe sometimes or to be overly dramatic so let me be blunt as i see it this bill strips away the federally protected right to a secret ballot from american workers that's not choice and is certainly not free choice for our nation's employees i would agree entirely with the chairman's opening comments that this hearing and this discussion is not about whether or not employees are better off in a union or not that's an interesting debate and one which we may engage in some day but this hearing is not about whether or not unions are better than non unions it's about how workers choose whether or not they want to be in a union and i would hope that we'll be able to focus the discussion and the debate all morning on that issue and not flip to a discussion of whether or not unions provide more benefits than the non unions we have a number of witnesses subcommittee make sure that quote employees who are not in support of the union have the right to go to work and not be harassed every day unquote workers like karen m from oregon who wants us to know that during a card check drive in her facility that she and her colleagues were quote subjected to badgering and immense peer pressure and that she exercised she quote exercised my free choice not to be in the union and my work life became miserable because of it unquote these are real employees and i don't think they support the free choice proponents of this bill that we have before us today in closing let me reiterate the question for us is not whether unions are good or bad but rather whether employees should have the same rights each of our constituents had last november when they voted to send us to congress it is beyond me frankly how one can possibly claim that a system whereby everyone your employer your union organizer and your coworkers knows exactly how you vote on the issue of unionization how does that give the employee quote free choice it seems pretty clear to me that the only way to ensure that a worker is free to choose is to ensure that there is a private ballot so that no one knows how you voted i cannot fathom how we can sit here today and debate a proposal to take away rutgers democratic right to vote in a secret ballot with out of your back the balance of my time thank you mr kline without objection all members of the subcommittee will have five submit additional materials for the hearing record including any opening statement numberous we wish to make i welcome the witnesses this morning we thank you for your attendance your written prepared statements will be entered into the record so they will be a part of the full record of the hearing you will notice in front of the there is a bank of lights each witness is given five minutes to summarize his or her written statement and which will be included in its entirety in the record you reach the four minute mark a yellow light will go on which indicates that you have one more minutes ago when you reach the red light it's an indication that you should wrap up the thread like goes on for too long mr klein i agree the trap door exist they participated in organizing campaign for the united food and coerced commercial workers union in two thousand and six after a long twelve year battle a court of appeals ordered smithfield to reinstate mr ludlum and about in sacramento california the largest allman processing plant in the world he was a valued worker and compiled an outstanding record in two thousand and five when mr camille was campaigning for the international longshore and warehouse union he was fired the national labor relations board determined blues on it had on lawfully fired mr camille and in two thousand and six the board ordered the company to reinstate him misjudge for jason is a former labor years ago despite organizing efforts it wasn't until two years ago when cingular wireless brought eighteen c wireless seems a lot of that the workers were able to organize in two thousand and five single are voluntarily recognized the communications workers of america the seat of the usa as the workers exclusive bargaining representative after the company was presented with a majority of signed authorization cards so we will proceed mr martin with you welcome to the comm this has begun good morning mr chairman the members of the subcommittee my name is keith ludlum and i work in the livestock department of smithfield stall hill north carolina plant thank you for this opportunity to tell the subcommittee about our efforts to organize a smith feel about smithfiel hostile and illegal activities to stop us and how the employee free choice act is needed to protect workers rights there this is my first time on capitol hill and my first time testifying before congress i want to communicate to you that my service in desert storm was to protect the laws of our land and not to protect companies like smithfield that continually violate those laws if i can submit my entire written statement for the record let me quickly summarize my story so i feel star your plan is the largest hog slaughter import process of facility in the work inside the pens were hardest on load off trucks during my eight hour shift my coworkers and i are responsible for moving about sixteen thousand live hogs per day i returned to north carolina after my duty in desert storm i started working at smithfield in one thousand nine three i s organizing activities the supervisors and the deputy sheriff marched me out of the plant in front of all the other employees as an example to intimidate the others at the time my wife was pregnant with our first child and what should have been a joyous time for us became a difficult one shortly after my firing there was a vote and we were cheated out of the representation because missiles illegal activities then i'll be issued a complaint against smithville for numerous violations of workers rights the company's anti union campaign a severe intimidation and harassment cost us the election smithville c e o jr the third letter promised in writing that the next election will be fair that promise was not worth the paper it was printed on election a fall in one thousand nine hundred seven was even worse intimidation threats arrests and firings i want so now for the union election in a plant is nothing like the elections to public office that you are familiar with your in the ninety nine seven vote blame county deputy sheriff dressed in battle gear with guns lined the long driveway leading to the plant it was an effort to intimidate and frighten the workers the voters company management said right there with the head of the sheriff's office and creating intimidating a hostile atmosphere for workers going to vote the very site was not a neutral unprejudiced place accountant in a local election put on shares in front of his opponent's voting precincts finally last year after more than twelve years of litigation by the company and through last appeals a settlement was reached what was the punishment w word that i've said when the job of smithville was offered to me again i made the decision to leave a secure job and take a big pay cut i knew i had to finish what i started i knew i had to fight for the right that was wrong to feel i had to make a difference for all the workers nothing has changed in the company in the twelve years since i was fired the intimidation and harassment continues to this congress each one of you has a duty to protect the right of american workers who want a voice at work sending us back to the company for another in a lobby election is setting us back into the lion's den give us the employee free choice act so we can make our own decisions without harassment intimidation people's rise and jobs are on the line these elections are neither free nor fair he specially when a multibillion dollar corporation is willing to break the law all repeatedly but that but they do have a direct impact on me on my coworkers at smithville and on workers all across the united states i know that the law isn't working but i'm hoping that our lawmakers are and that when you see injustice like this that you will take action room walls with real teeth will deter companies from abusing their workers please pass the employee free choice act and give us a voice on the job thank you for the offer to speak to you this morning i will be happy to answer any questions you may have election system in the current election process one side has the power all the power and the employer controls the voters paycheck and their livelihood and have unlimited access chairman andrews ranking member kline and members of the subcommittee good morning my name's jan jason and i thank you for the opportunity to be here today and to share my experiences with card check campaigns as a former organizer f here i began my career with unite with a strong belief in belief in workers rights and democracy in the workplace during the course of my employment with the union i began to understand the reality behind the rhetoric i was talk to  manipulate workers just to get a majority on the cards i learned the promises made by organizers at the workers house had little to do with how the union actually functions as a service organization after graduating college i was accepted into the a f l c i l organizing institute a program designed to interview train and place the labor organizers as an organizer for unite i primarily work on and later led card check organizing campaign a card check campaign begins with union organizers go into the homes of workers over weekend this is a tactic called house calling card the blitz by the unions it entails teams of two remove the organizers going directly to the homes of workers to get cards signed personal information and home addresses of pain from license plates and other sources are used to create this master house calling that includes introductions listening agitation union solution and commitment to the group you are going to rise or is to quickly establish a trust relationship and then to use that tr to get the worker mad at his or her boss i began to realize that the number of signed cards had less to do with the support for the union and more to do with how effective an organizer was at doing their job in fact if you will to a vote count in a secret ballot election is always significantly less than the number of cards actually collected as an organizer working under a car check system i could quickly educate a set of workers into signing cards i don't have to prove th union's case i don't have to answer complicated questions asked to me by workers and i don't have to answer for the service record of my union card check and pains also have little to do with giving workers information w we're trying to resume topics such as dues increases and the specter of a strike we will train to constantly move the worker back to what the organizer had identified as that worker's hot button issues during organizer training sessions this  something called reeducation the logic calls that if you can keep a worker agitated and direct their anger at their boss you can pretty much get him to sign anything is someone tell me that she was perfectly content at work ensure their job unlike your boss i would take a quick look around her house and then ask educational questions like so i guess on your wages you know you probably won't be able to remodel your house because it was designed to make her feel cheated by her b five minutes earlier of course she just said that she enjoyed her work situation will refuse do you actually realize that they had been manipulated after the fact and asked for their cards back or asked to have them returned to them the union strategy was to never return or destroy such cards but to include them in the official count towards the majority in addition to the house call the union frequently manipulates the size of the bargaining unit one of the most common ways that we did  this in order to ensure that the union could claim that it reached a majority on cards was to actually reduce the size of the group of workers that we were going to be representing after the fact because of this many workers who were promise in a car check campaign the cars become more important than the worker and i remember one time in which ernest bennett who's the director of organizing for you know here at the time said to a group of workers in a meeting training for them for the entire campaign that if three workers were fired by the end of the first week of organizing you know it was going to lose that organizing campaign after two years of watching what i feel were disgraceful practices on the part of organizing unions and having experienced personal discrimination in my own workplace i chose to leave you kno so i remain committed to working towards fairness and prosperity for both employers and employees in the american workplace also really with these types of union practices that pointed to a culture of corruption that i was unwilling to participate and if you truly believe in employees free choice if you truly value employees free choice you'll defeat this bill and iraq's old employees right to a secret ballot election thank you for your time i look forward to answering any questions thinking th i know it didn't have to be this way for over twenty three years my husband him on the appalachian mountain and was the problem member of the united mine workers of america so you end up being right through his union my husband was able to bargain for better wages health insurance favoritism and seldom a reflection of our work some years we would receive as wordle as a two cent right on top of the workers had no real meaning for reporting unfair treatment by our supervisors when we approach board management about them fair treatment and then adequate pay our requests fell on deaf ears first started with our company's neglect and then difference my coworkers not decided to come together to form a union with the communication workers of america  w we were able to bargain for fair rights is affordable health care benefits every spec that works one word for each management so we were trying to organize they did everything they could just office from exercising our right jobs my coworkers and i would just start the union flyers and make posters to put on the walls on our bikes around with information about the union our supervisors with immediately gather our information and discard seven management one and othe r worker says the opportunity to make an informed educated decision on whether or not they want to join the union they wanted to control the information that workers receive and instill fear through constant threats on was about the union at one point one of the managers went so far as to park a car at the front entrance of the building where my coworkers were holding a union meeting the friends who are organizing came time management began just arriving on our most outspoken union supporter for so called bad habits and other flimsy charges despite the company's ongoing intimidation tactics we can try to fix we continued our organizing efforts having had past experience with unions and knowing what a difference they could joyed it was a relief to know that we could finally speak openly about the union without fear of retaliation shortly afterwards the harassment and intimidation stopped we were free to distribute union literature to  worker during our bright and were even allowed to set up a table in the break room with information on c w way with my posters put out flyers to my phone calls about the benefits of joining a union and having a say on our rights of some work conditions in two thousand and job security cases such as mine where the employer agrees to take no position and allow workers to freely choose whether or not they want a union are few and far between the reality is that every twenty thirty minutes a worker is illegally fired or discriminated against for exercising are his human and constitutional right to form a union i had two uncles that sacrifice of our lives for this great country during world war two workplace thank you again for the opportunity to testify at this hearing was a choice thank you and we thank each of the four of you for your testimony will now proceed with questions and we live by the same five minute rule as well  i think it's important to put the testimony in context in this chase and any fair minded person when they hear what you say would have to be concerned about the possibility of workers being coerced to sign cards in majority sign up been forty two occasions when the national labor relations board has made a finding of coercive behavior by a union organizer forty two findings you know over sixty years the other side of the coin is rather different  in two thousand and five alone more than thirty one thousand workers received back pay or some other remedy because of a finding by the national labor relations board that their rights had been in some way abridged also we're going to take let's get some of the clearest of circumstances that this jason talked about her testimony first is house calling and i want to put that in some perspective i can understand how there might be a insurance all up in the hallways all the way up to election booth area plant management was all up in the election booth there stand there with their white hats on their white smocks showing their authority and everybody saying no union no union never did where there are meetings that involve employees where only those in favor of the rather that i was opposed to the union were allowed to speak yes we had made things up for instance and the town where i'm and we had a benign past white house and we had mating set up there in the am for a were welcome to come and ask questions that's what we were there for to give out information but how about the meetings that were held in the workplace by i guess was eighteen he was a private with a prior employer where probably people allowed to speak at those meetings in the workplace not on we were never allowed we were taken off the phone five managers and taken to have room to tell us the negative effects of the union we were unselfish doesn't accomplish anything and i knew what that company was going to my community into the workers so i had to go back in order to make a change for a company that's out there plan was going to work by getting rid of people that were probably and want today and for their testimony and everybody sticking pretty close to the clock i'm going try to separate standard for my former colleagues up here and stay within my five minutes i missed a lot of might want to make sure i understand the saying the chairman ask you what it looked like when you went to vote and it sounded pretty bad but when you when you walk past the sheriff's deputies and everything that you go cast a secret ballot system and did you think that the sheriffs were opening the balance and looking at it was it was in private right tough stories here about intimidation by employers and clearly that should not be can you tell us from your experience about any intimidation any violence any harassment that may have taken place  urgency about solving problems that are perceived by the company and really put out there by the union and so there's a lot of ways in which to specially during the context of a hardship campaign and this is what i what i worked on a lot of the time it's an organizer in which really there were no rules about you know how we got the cards and it didn't matter whether or not that person it was signing the card at the end of march me or hated me so there are many times where we work you know visited people very late at night and stayed in their house and basically put my feet up on the ottoman and made it clear that i wasn't going to leave until they signed the card and there were threats made to anti union people as an organizer there were many times where i was  in indianapolis a woman actually had a heart attack on the shop floor because the stress was so great and this is intentionally created by the union this environment of fear and intimidation is intentionally created as a campaign hundred thirty five there you know there's been public places of courage and i both sides but all the studies all the studies show that the vast amount of the corruption takes place on you in that time committee chairman from california mr mckeon for five minutes thank you mr chairman i too want to thank all of you for being here and you know we've heard stories on both sides things that the unions have done incorrectly things that labor d incorrectly none of these things should happen in our country and it's sad that that that has happened you know i i'm not quite as old as the strip silly but i'm also we come from a different generation and i remember stories of my dad telling me when he was a young man that they didn't have unions in the company he was working for the sales manager would come in every week and just fire someone just to keep him scared and just to make sure that  everybody told the line and the things they were told those days of of that kind of intimidation i think are well behind us just as well not as a young man i served as a missionary for a church when i got off the train in santa tony why science science for drinking fountains colored and white this was before civil rights we've come a long ways do we still have problems yes we do but i think the reason that we're here today and what we're looking at is what is the best way what is the most democratic way to let these decisions be made and obviously we have differences of opinion i come down on the side of an election where and i feel bad that you had the these kind of problems but we've only heard your side of the story and mr chairman i would like to request that that we give smoked all company had a chance to respond and put their statement in the record  used to do that you're welcome to the case thank you mr lemon you should be left a good paying job what what kind of work what what kind of a job was that i work for various destruction companies as a contractor minister and did they have unions there were you a member of the union there or not but they treated you differently so that they didn't need a union there you didn't feel like they they should be organized union i agree i agree it's totally i think they should have the right to vote and i think that should be done by by secret ballot so that neither the employer nor the union knows how people are are making congress united states are deeply concerned with international labor standards and the role of labor rights and international trade agreements were writing to encourage you to use a secret ballot in all union recognition elections we understand a secret ballot this allowed for but not required by mexican labor law however we feel that the secret ballot is absolutely necessary in order to ensure that workers are not intimidated into voting for a union they might not otherwise choose we respect mexico was intended as an important neighbor and trading partner b feel that the increased use of the secret ballot in union recognition elections will help bring real democracy to the mexican workplace i would like to have that without a check the record because i agree totally with out and life changing and that's why she thinks that employers should be able to force employees she used and a lot of the election process even went to majority of them have credit cards expressing their desire to be represented by do you agree with the union tactics that were used by blue diamond including captive audience sessions and one on one meetings in which officials threatened to close a plant to take everyone's attention away also there were some filings yours included among others that your these cards how would you compare your experience in dealing with union folks who work trying to organize roche's the employers who are trying to hit the union from coming in how would you vote ok signing a card that's a vote for an employee sign a car openly and freely whether it's own property off property in them in a restaurant or whatever that's their that's their choice and they're voting everything not you know a lot of employees don't even go show  head bringing back memories let me tell you they are just a push want to respond to the comments from my colleague from the state of michigan since he was talking about my district invest in michigan when he's talking about west michigan and i let me just point out to my colleague mr kildee that in a state that struggles with one of the highest unemployment rate in the country over seven percent at least in west michigan we are about two points below that in unemployment and if there is a bright spot in the state of michigan it is the west side of the state where we've got great companies we've got great employees that have found a way to be successful in a state that has a very unfriendly economy to businesses t the i think that as we've gone through the process and listening to their testimony i don't think there's anybody here who disagrees that there needs to the free and fair elections means that you can't be coerced by the unions and you can't coerced by businesses and employees ought to have that right to go and have that decision and do it in secret at least that's what i'm hoping for you know this committee has a pretty good tradition of standing up for workers rights at least parts of this committee do it was about ten years ago that this committee over the objections of members on the other side took on corruption took on corruption within the teamsters union where there was a  of a union one point four million members one of the largest private sector unions in america today and this committee set up stood up and said there's going to be or there's going to be another election because of the chairman i hope that we as a subcommittee will take a look at restoring workers rights to those one point four million teamsters by taking the final step and getting the consent decree  getting this union from under the control of the federal government it is time that that happens and it would be a great step well could democracy and one that i hope this time republicans and democrats could work together on i don't think any of us believe that after this union has been under control i think the federal government for around seventeen years that the federal government still should have it under its thumb and i think this would be a great step for worker democracy then the question that i would have for mr joyce on this it is you know the contract process is an interesting process and it it demonstrates that perhaps w only half of the members all ramps noways of a company being part of the process and only half being contacted that there could be union recognition should that at that point in time because fifty point one percent of the workers have agreed that they want union representation and the other forty nine percent not having a vote at that time should the union represent the fifty percent or fifty one percent of the workers that have signed the card check early should that be a requirement for a hundred percent of the workers fifty one percent is fifty percent plus one person right you get from the jarvey that say yes we want the union for health care for a center it's that is the majority of the employees bigger context we all know that of course union membership as a percent of the workforce in this country has been dropping dramatically over the course last couple of decades and anna particularly in the meat packing industry and a number of others i think what we're seeing is a lot of us regard the globalization process we're seeing a race to the bottom a few on a lot of industries and we're seeing tremendous pressure on the workers and i think what we see is  an increase in productivity on the part of workers but we see a decline in their ability to organize we see a decline their benefits whether it's real wages or whether it's health benefits whatever the case may be  and my own view for what it's worth is that we have a lot of company executives who are very aware of the squeezing of the working class and oftentimes in the workplace that's manifested by the kinds of activities that we've heard from a number of you today and it's not th mean just during during a vote you know when i first i work in smithfield i knew nothing about unions have never been a part of the union was not raised in union territory you know i was raised up in the south you know so there is there wasn't a lot of unions in the area or anything like that knew nothing about them but as i started working there and leaving the plant the organizers would be either handling at the highway you know they'd be right there in the line or they had to stay on public property and handbills everyone's right to get a handle sometimes i would sometimes i reasoned sometimes i would you know but the union did not make my decision on whether or not i needed a union i didn't the company made it for me you know as i've seen workers getting hurt getting mistreated is you know in risking hurting himself again and when i went to supervision gravel and parked right in the livestock yard ten feet from where he was sitting in the break room i say about you guys let him drive around you know and park where you guys are parking at and i said no that's for does that i just want the record to reflect discussion really about the letter on the mexican unions and will submit written information on this i don't want the record to reflect that that was a situation where it was union versus union as to which was supposed to be recognized it was the view of the signers of the letter including chairman miller that the incumbent union was a government run sham union and the union that was to replace it was a more appreciate that i would like to respond to your last comment and your clarification about that letter it seems to me that the point was that you and your colleagues recognize the importance of a allow the smithfield packing company to include their statement and and the record for today to i'm very pleased about doing that i agree with my colleague that there are at least two try to thank every veteran and every active military person for their service because i think it's very important that we do that and recognize that well i want to ask you a question about the current situation at  isn't it isn't it true that smithfield has called on the u f c the idea to agree to a private secret ballot election so that the workers it's our guild can decide whether or not to be unionized and isn't it true that they've agreed to have a carefully regulated by the federal government election and also even offered to share the cost of a neutral observer such as someone from the carter cent can postpone you know a legitimate election for another twelve fourteen years you know have twenty thirty years operating in a prison workers you know and yes the government regulations they are to be as they are but when you lose power and li and there's no raging around the ballot box not only cigarettes that are that are being kept as a secret of the company's dirty tricks are going to continue to happen but perry do you want to have a secret ballot election and i will have to abide everyone has a choice and in the example that he uses which he did not complete a fifty one percent to fifty for us one find those cards and i want to be represented by union you never responded to the rest of it than assuming the other forty nine percent don't want to be represented by you and you said everyone has a choice but in this kind of a situation they don't you're not willing to give them that choice thank you you say that in our country we should just have sign up cards or would you do away with a secret ballot elections in this country i would say that we should guarantee you under the labor law free choice of every employee in this fills a right way to do it the unions well i mean you know i'm a shining example for smithfield to the workers you speak of you stand up for your rights will fire you and we'll see in twelve thirteen years do you think do you think that a majority vote through the card check would make it easier or harder to to organize i understand that your web site talks about what you call union of boids programs is that correct yes and you're after you left as an organizer for united here who was your first client we were supposed to corporation for since us and and how soon after you left united here did you take them as a client of the things we wanted to do with our consulting company was to use our experiences as organizers to help companies understand the ways in which employees feel like they're being discriminated against feel like they're favoritism is being used against them and they help to rectify the situation in a peaceful way so that there doesn't have to be a strike between management employees so in whose interest is union avoidance why would someone leverage organizing campaigns that are well outside of the jurisdiction of the n a large b which we've been talking about in which signing a union card is and is an indication that you want to get a union and you want to have so i think essentially how they're using it now but as some of your colleagues said in the last ten years with the history of the way that the economy at the working and manufacturing has been moving overseas unions are become strategic decision made by the corporate union to organize that company not a call from the shops or saying i'm breaking my back here and my how i time is nearly expired what i think is the key issue here of whether we are treating making unionization harder or making it harder to organize i think the data are pretty clear that workers would be better off if  collective reunion izing were the norm rather than the exception and that making it more difficult actually is a disservice to the overall autonomy not just the workers so i'm i i have seen union avoidance consultants at work and i know they can be quite effective but i don't i question whether they really operate in very compelling personal stories and very interesting to me but and clearly abuses occur intimidation occurs on both sides and this committee is interested in looking at fairness and what's really proper safeguards which it seems to be the fairest way to handle this now i guess the question i have is this if we were to move forward with card check what do you recommend i like to hear from each of you on th what do you recommend be done to prevent fraud and intimidation under that type of system and how do you recommend that the you know your baby present in every meeting which i mean that's impossible but how do you what do you recommend that that this committee look at and how do we verify that we're not going to have intimidation and fraudulent activity was carjacked just  certainly not a legislative expert but i would suggest and having worked in card check scenarios throughout the u s and canada and multiple different provincial locations card check doesn't solve the problem the problem violence on the shop floor any of these things that have been described by other members of this panel in reality it just heightens the sense of urgency that's created and the potential for violence and so my actual honest card check that would be reasonable for proof with regard to intimidation tactics and fraud and fraudulent abuses are that's the problem i have as a member of this committee and it seems to move that a secret ballot election involve incorporation in the signing of unity union authorization forms in the more than sixty years since the n l n l r a has committed unions for less than one per year so i think that you know trying to put this on to the unions that they're giving everyone a difficult time i think is a little out of place there yet we know that we see our unions trying to organize and they have been shut out constantly so something's about how the unions will go to the homes they're not allowed on the property so where are they supposed to talk to those members that might want to join the union and to be very honest with you as a  politician twice a year i go around knocking door to door and go into people's homes so they can sign my petition so i can run for reelection so you know that was i don't want me in the home asked me to leave those that want to sign up just sign up so i don't know i kind of consider that freedom of speech in one way or the other so i see nothing wrong with that but again to have jason testify here and certainly  let me ask you why did you join the union the first place for you working i'm sorry why did you why were you involved in the union in the first place yeah well i grew up with a in a family valued social justice issues and i really strongly believed did you see well when you were in the union did you see why you should stay into the union as far as the work place conditions well what i found in my experience need may have always been present for change in the workplace or while you know there are certainly a call for for people to advocate for change or discuss change in how they're going to solve problems in the workplace and  know i want to i'm just asking you know why were you in the union why were you in the workplace why were you trying to organize because obviously you saw reason for it well if i could answer more fully i was i started off with a strong belief in these things i ended my career with with a strong belief in these things if you will i took a look at the reality of what was going on any time that on the shop floor when you quit your job as an organizer post and after you quit to do start your own business sometimes and that was about how much for two hundred twenty five thousand dollars correct i don't know it just seems to me that you have a conflict of interest you know on a number of those  away we're seeing pensions being taken away these are things that we as americans have always fought for now there are many good employers out there and there are indeed those that don't want to join the unions th right but when we make it so difficult for people that want to rock with the unions because they do protect workers rights if you remember correctly why unions even started it it's basically goes back to the time when union people or people just average working people would take and that's one advantage up and we're seeing that more and more we want to know alexion we want is people to be able to say to another person we think we need to have a union and i think that is fair we have seen too much abuse as far as employers not allowing the employees to have that and i hope this company will certainly help ludlum for his service for the cause of freedom and also having been a father of a i'm a military personnel i would say to the strikes as well thank you for being a family member and supportive of people who are willing to go as you said very clearly and fight for the cause of freedom that's important to remember that and i thought you saw it for your position and thank you for taking write each of you the freedom to express your point of view under this issue having said that as well nothing that i as probably everyone in this room come with perspectives that come from factors in our life i was raised in a union home my father was a two and i maker machinist i worked at u s t r south works in chicago for a time as a steel worker i had a foreman not a union official but a foreman come up to me early on in my time at us steel diligently sweeping up the kitchen area the materials area underneath the electric front as number two electric furnace there and tell me robert take it easy go find a box call it take a nap unions work long and hard to get your working conditions don't screw it up in one week that's a filter that i have in my life i missed that we all have those filters and yet there are principles that goes way beyond filters so i just want to undoing free and private elections in the workplace yes or no do you believe exceptions to the reverse should be a reason for underlings free and private elections in the workplace believe the exceptions to the rule of law more than i be and we have exceptions on both sides we can admit that we have bad management and we have bad unions without seeing it we read  ludlum do you believe that an employee who doesn't want to join the union should have that opinion protected under the right to privacy union should have that opinion protected under the right to privacy that they remember on the one who doesn't want to yes thank you mr camille do you believe that employee who doesn't want to join a union should have that opinion protected under was jason do you agree that an employee who doesn't want to join a union should have that opinion protected and the right to privacy happily thank you mr joyce do you believe that an employee who doesn't want to join a union should have that opinion protected  did you mean violation this is a tough profession understand all this person's process but yes i absolutely meant that i very much that i mean that these were exceptions that were violations that were violations of the law that were illegal on either side  and fair and so perhaps we ought to be considering another way in which point you can express their desire whether to be represented by unions or not be represented by union and i don't know if that helps the panelists clarify the question that my exceptions on both sides i don't think that we're talking about something that is massive either side i think we would say that the majority of our businesses our corporations our job providers live under the law these are agree just exceptions i admit that workers in two thousand and five who received back pay because of illegal employer discrimination practive it is protected under the national labor relations act thirty one thousand three hundred fifty eight employees receive process thirty four percent so even if a union he is elected in thirty four percent of the cases there's no contract that ever gets negotiated because employers don't park in in good faith and i could i could cite multiple specifics but i think listen having said that you you i'm a little bit confused you said you went into this as a dream or whatever out of it is it wanting to do the right thing or you wear that sense of susteren over sixty charges labor aware that this company had sixty charges of violating the labor laws with the national labor relations board and final post i'm not thank you very much for answering the question let me ask you this how in heaven's name  employer has the employees for hours on the floor of the factory or in in your case across center and the union people the union organizers are not allowed on company property they're allowed to i was hand you know there's no problem with a worker inviting organizer into their home to discuss issues on the shop floor i'm not against that what i am against is the fact that these are the ways that organizers are trained to use a systematic sales tactic i mean did you offer me a guest the command how did you get into my home well during the election campaign these types of things don't often happen with with card counting because there's need to be a certain letter relationship between that time and the election right but in the car there are much more sophisticated ways of making that message but did you ever tell anybody in their home that if you don't sign you're in deep trouble or you could lose your job for not wanting to join the union that there's going to be any opportunity from players to ever raise those issues in the context of a carjack and what's what i think it's good to actually look at the bill that we're that we're debating here and such and to actually contains language in it  b rather to design a card that will i think the fairly transparent and clearly state what the choices for the worker who is being asked to sign it and secondly it's also establishing a procedure for people to challenge to below the of the signatures so that and the chairman i talked about this outside of this hearing is that i think everybody wants to get to the goal of fairness here and just merely by changing the law to establish the card check system as a way of sort of high union doesn't mean that we're throwing fairness out the door that there will be an opportunity if there are instances of fraud and arrests for employers or anybody else to present that to the national labor relations board and i wanted to just sort of follow up with ms joyce because you actually participated in a card check campaign i mean these are not the back of a of a napkin i mean the the card actually contains real be in the language and it is also very clear i mean this is just sort of the suggestion that's being left here today that that card somehow are different than ballots i mean in fact there's probably no information that could be five minutes thank you very much mr chair in a historic hearing your testimony here today strengthens our our our nation as we go through th i'm happy to share with you that this legislation will change all of that and that employers will think twice before doing to others what has been done to you you know i come from new york city  and we pride ourselves on being a union town but i have to tell you growing up in a community where unionized workers were where the base it's what the growth and development of of our community the right way to go because we can do it in our free time in any way any place that we want without intimidation of a company which only talking about a company talking about come to the witness table again we thank each of the four witnesses for their participation this mor i'm going to begin the introduction process as the witnesses take their s hundred thirty chair and is a professor at the graduate school of education and a member of the department geography at the university of california berkeley charles cullen who is a return visitor to our committee's welcome is an associate professor at the university of oregon m's labor education and research center second only to cornell university's school of industrial labor relations which i say is a proud cornell graduate  gentlemen ladies and gentlemen thank you for your patience this morning through the first panel i assure you that your testimony is no less significant important to us because of the delay but we certainly did want to hear what the first group of witnesses said i will reiterate the instructions i gave at the beginning of the hearing the box in front of you indicates that you have a five minute period to summarize your testimony in each of your cases the written testimony will be included as a as a part of the record of the hearing he would ask you to summarize your written testimony when the yellow light in front of you goes on it's an indication that you have one minutes to complete your remarks chairman andres ranking member kline and members of the committee thank you so much for this opportunity to testify in support of the employee free choice act i feel especially privileged to do this because i've spent thirty plus years as a lawyer working with employees who want to form unions so they can improve their working conditions as a movie i work for the national labor relations board i will be in their trite regional offices their business office i ran a lachance as an rb agent i held hearings an issue decisions about allegations of objectionable conduct during election campaigns and i investigated and prosecuted violations of the act and i believe in the n l r b election process i left  work with a private law firm representative ride as local unions and tom daschle unions and after some years there i joined the legal department of the united auto workers where i stayed for eighteen years while at the farm and also at the auto workers i worked primarily with workers all sorts of workplaces i met with them to tell them what their legal rights were under the national labor relations act during the campaign and what to expect from their employer i tried to get the workers ready for the campaign of intimidation and fear that i knew they would have to endure and they always did have to endure it i mean i would listen to their stories of work or intimidation threats misrepresentation and abuse and i would try to make sure their rights were protected and i would try to push the election process forward but at some point in my career in doing that i could no longer in good conscience keep telling workers that the national labor relations act protected their right to form a union i knew what the statutes set but i that in practice it could not and would not protect them i had seen it fail too many times i knew the difference between what was supposed to happen and what really happened and i knew that they would have to be heroes in order to survive their organizing effort and that's just wrong and i've always wanted the opportunity to be able to tell others sorry to come on you who has the authority and the power to do something about it in campaign after campaign impunity during the so called end l r b to provide election process and they lose heart because they feel betrayed by the law that they thought protected them and they feel afraid i'd like to tell you about one particular conversation i had late one evening with a retail store worker and i'm telling this to you because i hope it will help you to understand what workers really say not the rhetoric but the reality the woman supervisor told her if she supported the union he would fire her and i was talking to her about giving this information to support an unfair labor practice charge at the labor board and she started to cry she was afraid the employer would find out that she had helped the union and she would be fired she said she explained that she had a ten year old son who had as much and that if she got fired she would lose her health care and she wouldn't be able to afford her medications she wanted to do the right thing but she was afraid afraid for her son and who wouldn't be that kind of fear doesn't go away when the and i want to be agent hands you a ballot she had no evident and there was not that this process was as one of the people said today her only monitor and entirely to provide in this hearing as i have said here the focus has on secret balloting and has totally ignored the reality of the election campaign process in my written testimony i try to describe what work or state what it's like for them when they go through that election process and explain why workers need the employee free choice act so that they can choose union representation and collective bargaining without fear  intimidation and i try to debunk some of them that's about it i thank you so much for this opportunity a real privilege for me to show for thank you very much as i said your entire written statement will be in the record as  mr hope's question about are we making it harder to join a union i think it's a pretty critical question and the evidence on this is overwhelming we're making it much harder to join a union and indeed have process i think american workers have lost a fundamental right that's like just talk very briefly about the dream dimensions of this first when it comes to joining the union we have a democracy deficit a growing gap between the preference of eligible workers to join and the reality of declining union numbers the most recent polls tell us that almost sixty percent of eligible workers would join a union if they could the most recent b l s numbers tell us a little over seven percent of workers in the private sector are union members i think the only way to really explain that gap is that for many americans joining a union has become a rather than a right and i'd like to briefly touch on two issues that came up earlier first the notion of pressure on any hotly contested issue there's a lot of pressure on all sides and union certification elections are no exception but when the radnor act was passed the drafters were very clear when the employer had the economic weight to exert coersion because only the a career transfer someone hire an individual or close the facility related to that the issue of secrecy now it's true with the secret ballot election the identity  individual worker votes is kept secret but not the identity of the unit that votes so when the cutters that wal mart a number of years ago voted to have a union the company decided very visibly to close the entire department so individual identities were protected but the identity of the group remained very noticeable and i think in a democracy we rightly consider the secret ballot to be approximate a plebiscite in a dictatorship than a real election the votes are cons counted honestly but the fear in collusion behind the vote is what decides what takes place when ballots are cast i think in practice this fundamentally underlie up a limb in eight and undermines a key right my second two points are what stem from this a great disconnect productivity is growing out economic growth is increasing wealth for wages are going down many workers are completely disconnected from this gro finally we have an opportunity for a high road to competitiveness in the global economy today that requires that workers as well as consumers and stockholders benefit from growth for that we need a vibrant labor movement i think george p shorts the former secretary of state summarized it very well free societies and free unions go together he continued to say we need a system of checks and balances we have lost that system in the american workplace american workers have lost the key right thank you to shaking thank you very much you can your first statement will be included in the record stick our welcome back to the relations committee of the u s chamber of commerce and chair of its and rb subcommittee and i'm testifying today on behalf of the u s chamber of commerce and let me be clear i am here testifying against the employee no choice act i have not in the spoken i know that the proposed legislation is called the employee free choice act five with all due respect that is a misnomer simply put the proposed legislation struck some employees of a secret ballot vote on the subject of unionization something they have had since one thousand nine hundred thirty five it also potentially strips them from a vote on contract ratification if a group of employees in an inappropriate collective bargaining unit wish to select a union to represent them the national labor relations board will hold a secret ballot election based on a petition the ultimate question of union representation is determined by majority rule if a majority of votes are cast in favor of the union the board will certify the union as the fruits of bargaining representative of all employees in the collective bargaining unit i'm right joining at club one so union  certified by the board it becomes the exclusive representative of the entire unit of employees regardless of whether they voted for the union the employer is obligated by law to bargain with the union in good faith pushback to are matters involving wages hours and other conflict terms and conditions of employment as a burden the supreme court have acknowledged the use of authorization cards to determine majority support is a method of last resort not first so the supreme court stated in this case will case that authorization cards are quote admittedly inferior to the election process and quote the supreme court in london romber held that an employer may lawfully refuse to recognize a union based on authorization cards and insist on a board supervised secret ballot election that's an employer may but cannot be compelled to forego a secret ballot election motivating force behind neutrality card check agreements which we see a lot of today and the proposed legislation is the steady decline in union membership among the private sector workforce in the united states the unions today represent only seven point four percent of the private sector workforce there are many explanations for this perception as decline the globalization of the economy and the intense competition that comes with it the increasing regulation of the workplace through federal and state legislation rather than collective bargaining and the changing culture of the american workplace the n l r b selection process is officially in fairer legislative changes not needed r b selection process is not slow and so school two thousand and six ninety four point two percent of all initial representation elections were conducted within fifty six days of the filing of the petition during that same period the median time to proceed to an election from the filing of a petition was thirty nine days unions are currently winning well over fifty percent of and a lot of the secret ballot elections and solving new organizing the  election report summary shown that unions won fifty nine point six percent of all actions involving new organizing as we followed there are certainly horror stories of employers who abuse the system i hold no for those employers as a member of the national labor relations board i vigorously enforce the law but those exceptions are the but those situations are the exception rather than the norm and there's nothing new about the fact that some employers abuse the system in the overwhelming majority of cases where employees choose not to be represented by a union they do so based on the information that this presented by the both sides during the campaign process and it may fundamental tenement of u s labor law voluntary agreement this act would destroy the bedrock principle of the act by mandating that if the parties don't have an initial collective bargaining agreement within one hundred twenty days that after f m c us involvement there will be interesting arbitration this would parlay to taking away the vote on representation that employees have with taking away of the vote on ratification of any such agreement the actual agreement is for want to just in the crucible of what the business can sustain imagine a company attempting to compete in the global economy and to survive it must for certain encore functions but the government mandated contract provide that the employer may not outsource it is difficult to see how the resulting loss of business and jobs would add workers to the middle class this concludes my testimony saying thank you very much and again in your case your complete statement will be entered into the record the national co chair of the american political science association labor project i think when most people hear that there are union elections they assume that they work more or less the same as elections to congress unfortunately nothing could be further from the truth my research examines the extent to which  g election results were american standards from the founding fathers to the present for what constitutes a free and fair election unfortunately i have to report to you that and a lot of the elections by these standards look more like the discredited practices of rogue regimes abroad and like anything we would call american i've attached a report that summarizes the surgeon today i want to focus on just a few highlights before i do i want to say a word about the secret ballot so there are some who they believe that as long as an election ends in a secret ballot it doesn't matter what happens before it must be against unions for coercive the hagar and organizing campaign but it is a fact that in the more than six decades that we've had the labor statutes we're talking about today there have been only forty two findings of course  or by unions against potential members in organizing campaigns how do you explain the paucity of that record if it's because i take it that your implicit concern is that  the h r policy association i was working and i've course had no role in the offering up that it was my understanding that those forty two cases to purport to be a total compilation of all of the cases that raise that kind of ensure you're aware of another document that would have cases i'm not i'm not aware of any reason for anybody frankly to have done that comprehensive a study on that issue but more fundamentally if you if i can't for a minute you can thank you there is little reason in the normal  flu or anyone to challenge if we have voluntary recognition and there's been something untoward with the cards it would require an individual to go forward and bring that case he's really little reason to do that  an employer can do so again little reason for that employer to do it in most instances if i may i want to explore this idea of what were the witnesses called the democratic contacts i think professor shaking called democratic context and i want to be sure that the record reflects this and i would ask ms shaeffer she could answer these questions and in the instance when someone tries to organize a union with an employer does the employer have an obligation to give the organizers a list of the employees maximum place the employer has no obligation to provide the union with the list of the names of the employees or the addresses of the employees until right before the election does the employer have an obligation provide access to employers property shop floor call center store prior to the election absolutely no obligation to provide the union access to the workplace at all is it legal under present case long for employers to call  there a limit on the number of meetings an employer can call to discuss your realization before a vote takes place there's no limit workers are called in for one on ones with their supervisors these kind of meetings over and over they can take a few minutes they can take a few hours is there a is there or is there or is there a requirement that the women have equal time in that meeting no requirement at all for equal time in a meeting  let's let's talk for a moment either dr les for mr shaken about this concept of leverage  i wanted to just address for a moment the concern of the gentleman from new york about bias and let me stop the lake that eyewitnesses here come with a point of view which i would argue might be bias you know where you are on this issue but i would hope that none of us would question your integrity or sincerity because of that because of the possible bias i want to get a couple things on the record here by i could only go to you mr carter and make sure that i understand this correctly and i have some notes here in front of me so excuse me if i look down sometimes and make sure i've got this right i know some supporters of this bill will try to argue that even if the union conducts a card check campaign employees will still have the right to vote i don't i don't respond that here can you make clear for all of us and for the record something directly under the bill if the union organizer an employee presents fifty percent plus one signed cards to an employer the right to any election following that is extinguished is that correct it is common practice to to go well over a majority sixty seventy eighty percent on the theory that there will be attrition as time goes forward so functionally speaking although if an election if a petition were to be found with thirty five percent that would not trigger the number lection provision but again no reason to ever file that occasion ok thank you and in your testimony i think i heard you say something about thirty six days but one of the one of the claims we've heard repeatedly is that the end all be processed just takes too long and i think one of the witnesses in the earlier panel said something about twenty is seven years eight years and twelve years or something like that could you again  elections were conducted within fifty six days of the filing of the petition during that same time period the median time to proceed to an election from the falling of a but fission was thirty nine days and these are numbers which don't come about accidentally the n l r b is very diligent and the regional directors performance is monitored in washington to make sure that that those things don't slip in fact that it is a shorter period of time today than it was for requires be furnished to the union typically about three weeks before the election actually takes place it's a list of the names and addresses of the electorate if you well and that is required by law and it's been upheld secret is a secret ballot really in the american democratic tradition the principle of the secret ballot is not simply the fact that you go into a voting booth and pull a curtain and nobody sees what you do it is your right to keep your political opinion private to yourself before during and after the act of voting that you can't be lured of course into a conversation the designs to make you reveal your political preferences and are being rubber vote does take place in the booth that nobody sees what you're doing management is allowed to engage in a series of the hey viewers in the lead up to the vote so of course the vast majority of workers to reveal how they're going to vote long before they ever sevens at a booth in legal for a supervisor to ask a worker directly how are you going to vote and for that reason the standard practice of employers and consultants is to coach supervisors to have intensive what they call eyeball to eyeball conversations with every one of the people there they oversee the most intimidating kind of conversation and ask them questions that  avoid that explicit language but force them to reveal their their preferences to make profit of statements they record with the worker says they watch for body language they go back and they rank them on a scale of one to five of where they stand and one consultant report said he would regularly hold a poll among manager for one hundred bucks to see who could guess the correct number of votes that the election would be and they were always astonishingly accurate within a few votes so under those conditions under that intimidating condition if you're a supreme least skilled actor or liar you can keep your opinion unknown but for the most normal people you end up revealing where you stand and the fact that you don't go into a secret ballot at the end of the day doesn't change that so technically while they're not violating the  any other country the workers were interrogated in this manner even though they ended up in a few groups who we would say the secret ballot existed in name only i had an opportunity to read the testimony in writing and i have a question from the shi you mentioned that one of the fear in moving forward with an an alarm a complaint is the lack of the effective remedy for those violations is it true that remedies for those violations on the part of employers are sometime as she's to remedy at the cost of a few pieces of paper and what do you think the penalties do in terms of effective deterrent providing effective deterrent against violations of an airline for most of the violations that we have listened to workers talk about today the employers remedy is to post a piece of paper on the bulletin board saying that it will not do these things again and when i ask well of course the task before i come face to face with their supervisor in an administrative hearing and it's just they're just incredulous so it's jaw dropping i open the incredulous that that it's all the employer has to do and even if someone is fired if you lose pay the remedy is back pay if the person gets another job that pays the same or more the employer doesn't have to pay any back pay for that amount of time so the average back pay award is somewhere between thirty five hundred four thousand dollars and it's just a small price to pay a human rights watch did a study at the cost of doing business because there really isn't any fake financial disincentive to continue acting as a bad actor that's what the human rights watch report concluded thank you and i went back i think the general chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois recognition of the union which is a slightly different they can do that by by merely giving a sufficient number of names to the employer who was then under under a law required to proceed with the with the  not recognizing the union if in fact bargaining a choice intact or has been a loss of majority support that is that is correct and i am just amazed and i have to be very candid i n sitting here today i i see that some employees are given the unions given three weeks to be able to contact their employees most organizing drives are months and months of preparation and work  contacting people and trying to go to their homes can't get on the floor of the factory you gotta do it at home or you've got to do it outside i mean the deck is clearly stacked against us i wonder how many people are running for public office if we were under the same if i was running for congress and i was only given three weeks to my constituents and my opponent had a year and a half to do it and i couldn't talk to them i would probably be going in decidedly at a disadvantage plus i am amazed as you s disguise really in my honest opinion to make it more difficult for unions to be able to do what they do best and that's represent people i would like to ask you this if i could in a show for in your experience  there was an reference to this h r policy association report of cases of fraud in question and the reason actually that we investigated that report was because a case that i had litigated was on there and i knew there was no fraud of course and found in the case and here it was on this list of supposed cases involving product works and so we looked at those cases and we found that there were forty two out of the list where there was a real where there was any evidence of fraud and in sixteen years and security to not let me just ask intimidation factor and it would give employees the balance that feels a little bit even since you can't even go on the property which really again i know seems to back it bothers me a great deal but it's that the playing field is not level here for the workers who want to try to join a collective bargaining unit i think you have an excellent point here in a way it's not simply that the playing field isn't level the union isn't allowed into the stadium when it comes to this and i think what we're really looking at where this act passed in symbolic terms i think it would really recognize that workers can make a free and informed choice nobody has to join a union but i think given the service that we've seen and not a single poll but a wide variety of polls there really is a pent up demand the people that say look we've like to join a union if we could and that's totally at odds with the membership numbers or common sense tells us this is a period where there's a strong squeeze on wages but there the outcome will say thank you one final question and i'm running out of time a ship or would it would you agree that the thirty five hundred to four thousand dollars that the employer would have to pay basically is paying on average is a pretty good pretty good bang for the buck if you don't want to union in there and have to pay health care and pension benefits and the kinds of things that you know a union might very well try to negotiate for their for their workers the kind of bargain that encourages employers to do these things thanks very much for you know back i think the gentleman i thank the red nurses were there excellent contributions of the record today i also want to express my appreciation to the staff on both sides of the aisle for their hard work in making this hearing a success