behalf of the appellant to protect services i would request three minutes for rebuttal that would be acceptable burwell thank you your honor the matter before this court involves the application of ohio law specifically with regard to real estate tax certificates that are purchased by private parties in the interest rates that apply to a chapter thirteen bankruptcy proceeding for their claims the issue before this court namely involves there's no dispute that eleven c five eleven applies to the tax or typical interest rates there's no argument that a higher price code fifty seven twenty one applies in determine that interest rate but under fifty seven twenty one of our guys code there are multiple potential interest rates that could be applied the first is the certificate rate of interest and that rate of interest is the interest rate that applies at auction when this certificate is sold and most counties in the state of ohio are at eighteen percent the face value of their certificates county where this case arose is one of the few counties that actually auctions or certificates down to a rate as low as the one in this case in this case involved two certificates one was at the statutory maximum of eighteen percent the other was at the point two five percent that's at issue in this case today the second point of interest in sort of the lifecycle of these certificates is once a notice of intent to foreclose has been filed by the tax lien certificate holder it's public parks contention that in eighteen percent interest applies pursuant to fifty seven twenty one thirty eight that code section again sets forth those two differing periods in application of different interest rates depending on the timeframe at issue the statute generally was passed in order to provide revenue for the counties in the state of ohio on unpaid real estate tax or typically it's a creative sort of built in incentives for private parties to purchase these certificates one of them was the power to file foreclosure on behalf of the government entity  the other is once foreclosure is filed they obtain this interest sort of to get the time value of this investment and that interest rate goes up to that eighteen percent they also get their foreclosure fees which were awarded in the underlying case of this matter at the bankruptcy court level we've got two potential ways of awarding or calculating the interest rate one is i guess one is based on the notice to foreclose where you can redeem for the eighteen percent interest rate and the clears think we would we wouldn't be here if it were crystal clear so i certainly knowledge that that is a concern there's two ways that i would go about arguing this point first is it in this particular case a notice of intent to foreclose was filed plymouth park tax services in february of two thousand and twelve foreclosure proceeding itself was also filed by the county prosecutor in april two thousand and twelve in may the bankruptcy was filed in june the civil foreclosure court had stated that civil eighteen percent applies here that eighteen percent interest rate is not just contained in the redemption statute of fifty seven twenty one thirty eight but also extends to fifty seven twenty one thirty nine which is the foreclosure judgment statute holding that erb providing that rehabilitating the debtor in making a decision here i think the court should look to eleven u s c five eleven for some guidance on that issue you know eleven year c five eleven was largely put into place as a response to the  s case out of the us supreme court which set forth that secured creditors generally should be able to attain an interest rate that sufficiently gives in that time value investment plus any risk in accepting payments over a period of time the till rate was is generally the prime rate plus a few points for that risk so normally it falls between five and eight percent in the bankruptcy proceeding you know the congress it would be plus park argument the congress when it and acted five eleven of the bankruptcy code did so specifically to exempts governmental entities or creditors from being held to that till ceiling that is again as i said between five and eight percent generally because most statutes for taxes in particular provide for substantially higher interest rates and i think that some of the policy considerations behind that include just the definition of taxes generally these are not consumer debts these are civil obligations that individuals in these circumstances so it's sort of a policy consideration that regard i believe and i would posit to this court that the bankruptcy appellate panels conclusion that the point two five percent interest applies even though it's a technical reading potentially of fifty seven twenty one and the application of five eleven falls outside the purposes of five eleven meaning you're actually putting them in a position where they're prejudiced above any other secured creditors any other secured creditors would get a minimum that till rates and i believe that it sort of contradicts the purposes of the five eleven to begin with and that would be argued with her guard to that of course eighteen percent is pretty hefty especially for runs from the they'd of the default and what that would mean for a lot of these people is that not that you would get eighteen percent but they would loose the house so you proceed with the foreclosure the possibility yes your honor yes and then certainly there is some equitable arguments in that regard i would i would argue would be up to their high legislature to change that if they felt the need to do so  but you know i would revert to one of the points i would like to make regarding the back of the session as they rested on fifty seven twenty one thirty seven former eighty three a through c of their rise could which is a tolling provision for bankruptcy statute purposes basically bankruptcies been filed regardless of the certificates lifecycle meaning where it's at in its life cycle they say that the lake few holdings case which basically held that if a notice intense filing a foreclosure is not filed within one hundred twenty days required by ohio law that that notice intent is void that it's but but could be refiled at any time and the bankruptcy appellate panel seem to say well once this bankruptcy is found it's not precluding you from filing a notice of a tenant and ten again the result of that is if this bankruptcy were dismissed for any reason which happens often in chapter thirteen bankruptcy is normally pump of park would go into their state foreclosure case lift that stay and proceed with their foreclosure the decision of the ba never been filed or where it's been filed and it's expired it should not be applied some of park argues to a situation where that eighteen percent is already benefaction weighted and was in effect at the time the bankruptcy was filed there's not a lot of ambiguity in five eleven with regard to applying that the ambiguity i think comes from that section of the revised code again we believe the interpretation of this section of the revised code with would lead to potentially an unjust result again as i mentioned again the treatment of the creditors in a chapter thirteen at a minimum they should be treated as a secured creditor which they are but under the dictates of five plymouth park argues that that eighteen percent should apply matter to reach the conclusion that it's entitle to receive interest at the rate of eighteen percent on the tax certificate in dispute the debtors respectfully believe that the courts below concluded that pursuant to  negotiated for a much smaller rate at the tax auction simply because it found a notice of foreclosure with the county treasurer prior to the time the debtors filed their chapter thirteen case and the  section five seven to one point three eight b would compel this conclusion it's our position that a plain reading of section five seven to one point three eight be set forth a interpretation as pointed out by the bankruptcy palatable panel below ignores other statutory provisions in this court miscue for meaning to all the provisions in the statutory scheme the these include five seventy one point three seven a three b and c which the bankruptcy appellate panel observed refers to the certificate rate of interest that continues to accrue during any extension of time  the case where a bankruptcy has been filed is here now that certificate rate of interest is defined by those who have statute at five seven to one point three zero g as the rate of simple interest per year not to exceed eighteen percent per year fixed by the county treasurer with respect to any tax or to the get sore or transfer pursuant to a negotiated sale so in this case that certificate rate of interest is the zero point two five percent raid that is not the same thing as the repayment of a tax claim by way of periodic payments in a chapter thirteen plan which is what the debtors are doing in this case the bankruptcy court correctly analyzed the so has statute in reaching the conclusion that the statute does not compel the payment of the eighteen percent interest on the tax or to the good in dispute the bankruptcy petition had not been filed would you concede that the rate then jumps up to the eighteen  percent well it i think you'd have to then look at what transpired afterwards if a foreclosure judgment was an er then i think that the eighteen percent rate would apply essentially ignoring the bankruptcy is there's got to actually be a foreclosure instead of just the filing of the notice of intent yes and if foreclosure didn't occur because of the filing the bankruptcy that's right if the bankers the petition was withdrawn as your co is your opposing counsel said happens in these chapters thirteen's then you proceed to foreclosure jumps up i would concede that if the chapter thirteen case were dismissed because of the debtors noncompliance with the terms of the plan and that the stage then neuer in the fact in a foreclosure case goes to a judgment and a foreclosure decree is issued that foreclosure decree couldn't buy water would have to specify the eighty percent so if there isn't a bankruptcy and there is a foreclosure when does the rate jump up to eighteen percent is it back dated to when the notice of intent to foreclose was filed or does the rate go up as of the day to foreclosure i would think it would not go into effect until the foreclosures actually filed filed or occurs when you file the notice of intent then other steps have to occur and there are a lot actually  foreclosure well i think if i think of the foreclosure is actually filed in that foreclosure results in a decree of foreclosure that decree would specify the the amount of the of the principal owed plus the eighteen percent plus the cost and everything else that so forth in the statute at the plus the eighteen percent dated starting when i think it would start on the date the decree would be enter that doesn't jump the rate up retroactively to something having happened in the past i don't see that there's anything in the statute that could be read that way so you're saying that just never occurred because of the the automatic stay in the bankruptcy that's right and i think i did one of the question i thought that your posing counsel did say that at some point here they'd gone back to get relief from the stay in the foreclosure did occur did i did i misunderstand that conclusion however even assuming it could be written regarded as a redemption plan five seventy one point three eight c two still requires the payment of the certificate redemption price which references the certificate rate of interest which in this case is zero point two five percent so even if the debtors chapter thirteen plan is regarded as a redemption which i don't think it is and none of the courts below it thought it was even if that were the case it still doesn't get us to the eighteen percent it's still the certificate rate of interest which is the zero point two five percent and plum approach has argued in its brief and otherwise that five seventy one point three nine which is the judgment provision somehow it support to its argument and we respectfully disagree and we submit that five seven to one point three nine has no relevance to the present case because that statutes to sickly spells out what a foreclosure decree must gain must contain in these taxes to the cases and since there never was a foreclosure judgment entered against the debtors in this case we simply feel that that particular statute is irrelevant so in summary based on the debtor's analysis of the statutory scheme regarding tax or to the good sales the debtors in this case respectfully submit that the appropriate rate of interest to be paid by them in their chapter thirteen plan is zero point two five percent which is the rate shown on the face of the tax or to the good in not the eighteen percent rate that simply would not be acceptable applicable under these  and that would conclude my argument frank thank you very much and they were a bottle  first i want to read it absent a bankruptcy petition that the that the read actually goes up or a higher rate goes into effect when the foreclosure decree is entered well no i do not agree with your input with parks position is that once under the statute tory language once that notice of intent is filed and the foreclosure proceedings found which both of which occurred in this case that interest rate jumps at that point and it's something with women go ahead i'm sorry foreclosure proceeding could be dismissed for summary could decree than to effectuate the foreclosure that's current decree is what ends up then effectuating the higher interest rate right i don't believe that's how the code reads if you don't have a decree somebody is going to just start does the higher rate that the decree allows you to charge begin the data the decree as mr waddington says or or an earlier date and i cited because i don't do the foreclosure side of this so i'm not one hundred percent certain i believe it actually goes back to the to the date where the notice of intent is filed that's my understanding of the code in what reads because the reason i'm asking the question is is if you never got to the decre because your state by the filing of the bankruptcy petition if if a decree is necessary to jump up the rate regardless of whether the rate jumps up from the data the decree or whether it jumps up from an earlier date the notice of intent if you never got to that point then i don't understand why the debtors would be worse off in connection with the interest rate because they file the bankruptcy protection rather would you're saying it's going to the way this code operates is once those things happen under ohio law the both the foreclosure attorney fees whether it be a prosecutor fear a private attorney in the current sets this forth or the interest attached to that certificate which attaches to the property by operation of law this isn't a debt under ohio law that is necessarily that the debtor is obligated to individually the property is obligated to that debt in a sense it attaches to the property it doesn't attach to the debt or necessarily