no doubt that there is a split of authority on this issue as to whether or not a convention permits service by male jurisdictions allow it jurisdictions don't allow it interpreting section t they specifically refer to service a process authorizes sending judicial documents other service of process i am of that position your honor i'm also of the alterna position that service of process and those are always physical addresses just like there was a physical address here and there was no excuse for not ascertaining the physical address finding the fent there and serving the defendant there are you aware of the position that the thank you thank you very much believe you do have anything else one way or the other you know your honor i believe and we have then is the statement from the solicitor the says that that's not a permitted matter the service i believe your honor the english solicitor statement was opinion that's right i we would submit that akerman should be followed here at the district court did not merely because the majority view but because we believe it the better rationale that the greeks are greeks explain infer meaning from a section where something is placed rather than from the explicit text of that which we are being asked to read that's correct i believe that application interpretation of th document and where a text is placed within that structure well what do we do here when within section tan we have twice very explicit use of the term service process and once very explicit use of the permitted within the united states here in california federal district court in california that is to say the federal rules don't permit it and the california rules which the federal rules incorporate for federal court sitting in california also do not permit say if you're sending service in california from a federal district court in california domestically you have to have some form of return receipt requested before that's now in service law service by mail provided to go to the appropriate place ordinary mail not return or seek a quest and not registered mail is permitted but so far as i read that you know the solicitor it referred only to mastic english cases that is to say he's filed in great britain with the great with the british defendant ordinary mail is permitted it may be a different question as to whether or not written would  t service by ordinary man as to mail coming from abroad the reason i say that is the british might trust their own mail system and i think they have an irrational pride in their own mail system but  it's international mail they are not dependent merely a con the british mail system here depending on all the links that would have brought the mail from abroad into the british mail system so do we know that the british would allow ordinary mail not return or see requested but ordinary mail with respect to service coming in from abroad and delivered within great britain we don't you are not thinking the record on that point although you know there's a the underlying legislative history if i can call it that way past the draft and history of the treaty you know ten is written hardly not only is there the word stand but there's country rather than by the receiving country that's a draft report it's you can find  and i'm not sure that is right it says that the two languages actually chosen on purpose not my accent and it really refers to what the practice or custom or permitted things are in the sending country not this not the recei the the treaty looks to appear to deal with the incoming gap facts out the fact that i would find it interesting that there would be one provision that would deal with the outgoing else and this i'm not sure this in any real bearing on the outcome of this case why didn't you use the suspenders this to say there are a number of other matters of service or process that are clearly permitted and clearly sufficient you did not use adversary that when we're talking service of process what is required is actual compliance with the math of the service of process and actual notice is neither here nor there in order for there to be valid service of process you must have complied with whatever of likeable rule there is and that he might have found out about her might not to find out found out about of by some other way doesn't make any difference general well your honor i would have to agree with that ok i would have to agree with you on that mr carroll though the question i was asking mr israel i'm wondering if there's a distinction between actual knowledge of the action on the one here and an actual receipt of the summons and complaint on the other was there anything to show i think there have been any cases you are right thank you  you still have about four minutes left if you care to use them all right i think we've addressed most of most of the points and again i would just say that back to the issue of the english law i think it is critical fact as i believe you're on a point out in a question to my adversary that martin had actually used this post office box after address in their magazine and it cases in which time magazine is served at the address given in the magazine i don't know i'm not familiar with those cases time magazine manages to have a different place for service of process than dress listed in the magazine