sixteen dash nineteen for for used to pay him directly under salary but that there was no difference between her situation and that a working capital funding employees can focus on that why or why should we consider th says as a matter of law that while the federal laboratory at naval warfare surface dogra could provide reese courses of personnel and expertise they could not provide any money and in contrast the only money that could be provided with the by the non navy or non governmental collaborator which in this case is lockheed martin and they in fact produced two point six million dollars in and all her she would have continued working there and dahlgren correct yes or and i think i don't know whether it was only different share that we're looking at is that for a period of time her showery was paid at least indirectly through the creative director or during during a period january to about september twenty third seen almost all of her time and we've produced her time cards in particular that were entitled to this exception i because the secretary of defense mode from the fourteenth of may twenty third team he said that most if not all of the department defense employees would be furloughed to include the working capital fund but then he came out with nine exceptions the nine exceptions were based on missions but they're also based upon funding sources because if the funny sources were such that there will be no savings that would come back to deity then what would be the point of for a low in that person because there wouldn't be any savings in that particular case and so in this particular case when we had the video  and she was the head of labor employee relations but significantly she was not that the sign official so she's kind of articulating what could have been decided by mr cook who was the technical director of doctrine and there were these e mails that talked about work for private parties in saying about creative they said work for private part and from the very beginning  the furlough appeal dr snyder has been consistent throughout i'm entitled to this exception because i'm working on a project in the not funded by federal monies funded by lockheed martin  money and she also produced a letter from one of the sub contractors the state of the thirtieth of may twenty third team making it very clear that they had been the ones that came forth fully funded the fact to it though is that our her salary during the relevant time period was being paid from dog friends working capital fund and so we have this earlier opinion called  fund saves that agency money in order to be able to use it for higher priorities in this emergency situation so now that if we have to accept the fact that she wasn't fact paid out of the working capital fund and she wasn't being paid directly by lockheed what is wrong with the age race conclusion that just like an  bowden dogon here was able to save money from that working capital fund that it could use for higher priorities during this critical time period i think what the problem is is that in the age it was all to the same a j and i just think that you want to revisit what you have written before and he did not make the critical distinction that this case is not time for in this case it is not and if the fourteen forty cases before has talked about governmental customers coming in with the dea or other federally appropriated money none of these cases have talked about a private contractor coming in with their own independent money and as a customer to the government and their customer to the government because what's going on between lockheed martin and the government is there is a transfer of this technology expertise with respect to in this particular case the advanced ship weapons control system which is this computer system a software system that talks to a missile so the missiles able to probably launch off the so you know some allegations that really the money is coming from the united states government it's not from washington or the i think the problem is is that when you get into the testimony and i know there's some detracting evidence elsewhere in the records such as as a matter of law with the federal technology transfer x about the fact that it has to be nonfederal money the fact we put the credit into evidence the credit itself shows that the of the working capital fund and the working capital fund would get reimbursed from the cradle funds that were provided by lockheed such correct there is a that the labor costs are paid for by lockheed martin but they're also talking about paying computer costs travel bought and the interesting thing with what i understand or whatever snyder is what what i'm what i'm getting at is that is if i keep lucky pay this money to the government and it when it went into the working capital fund although there were separate accounts kept together now when dr snyder was for allowed to look government slight of a concession by the agency and their brief at about age twenty three that eventually somehow if there was savings to lockheed martin would be as you of five hundred million dollars this is a little different from those cases right because now we're dealing with a situation where the creed and the federal funds that are being contributed that are you know why he had not been furloughed she would have been paid out of the working capital fund and the working capital fund would have been able to immediately i assume get reimbursed from the for the furlough the working couple find realize an actual savings by not paying doctors spidering out later when work started up again and that relationship began again with money going out and working capital funding coming back in the crate or somewhere down the that maybe five years from now when the project was over and there was a full accounting there minor might not be some kind of money that would be returned like tomorrow if there was an excess of funds but at that moment the working capital fund crisis funds available to the government generally well i think what we have to look at is that the budget a military budget and the working capital fund is included under that military budget and so when that when the department of defense looks at its budget that moment in time and that's the way the budget works at that moment that they don't cut those checks and pay that money they are realizing a savings in that budget think can be transferred when the work picks up again and yes that money flows out to dr snyder and the improbable i don't find that to be substantial evidence and apart from that i don't see any other evidence in the in the record with respect to tracing the front from the funding source to dr schneider of the projects in the working capital fund or whether there were enough funds to pay employees salaries what they focused almost the fact that the working capital fund budget itself saved money by not paying salaries and if you look at the exemptions on page one exemption i it doesn't talk about funding it's talks about the only people who will be exempted are employees who are not paid directly from accounts included in the department of defense military budget but  well because if there was any monies paid by lockheed and those were used to pay salaries then all those monies would have need to be paid in that haven't actually been used right for the greater they all get returned to walk right that's true but the greenman provides for certain work to be performed so  but in this particular instance maybe she doesn't fall with an exception are well i guess i think you know the real facts are where in that particular instance someone was an employee in the summer was being paid by the university of chicago but the term of that agreement and within the fiscal years so it wouldn't make any difference to it wouldn't the other thing i would say is that the the validity of the parallel has to be judged by the circumstances at the time that it's imposed and the time that this was imposed in fact the lockheed martin credit was not at and it had some period of time that employee because she was an employee of the working capital fund clearly she was not an employee of the lockheed martin and find of using the analogy we used in their brief with a law firm where yes one lawyer might be devoting all of their work to a particular client's work that client maybe is trying to run and billed for that time if that attorney doesn't work for a week just for a low for a week and the law firm doesn't have to pay their salary for that week the fact that when the week is over the lawyer w was interesting that the agency seems to think that by furloughing dr snyder that there was actually money see when there are other issues in this case and that you've written issue with respect to how over time was manipulated by the agency furlough that they were going to get overtime in order to make up for time that they were going to be furloughed and the government's own documents show that she this is not on dia de money we're not going around the cra i don't know how you're saving money if you're at one time furloughing people one day and then on the weekend you're having to work overtime on the rationale that we don't have to worry about dealing the money because we got lockheed martin money in this  think that there were savings to the government but in the last question i asked her a cross examination i said that there are no savings to the government there are only savings from a lockie market right i can't answer that one i do not know because she was not familiar with how this unique document created actually in fact worked and so consequently i would say that there from those series of supreme court cases in reaching this finding i know that is highly improbable that lockheed martin publicly traded company would expect its own capital to develop a missile for the department and if you instead i find the weapons control systems the software system programs on the ship versus that's a stretch there is no evidence of that if he had looked at the federal technology transfer act he could have understood that a company such as lockheed martin would in fact expend its own independent research and development money in order to develop something in order to get a leg up in future for cure is down the line with the united states government as happened naval academy cases diverses department or in case talks about where the money came from and whether or not the employee was entitled to the exception in this case we would say that  the efficiency of the service wasn't the promoted because she should have been granted the categorical exception because she was being funded to include retirement out of the law lockheed martin