testing one two three check one test one two three check t today we will examine the significance of creating an annual survey in partnership with the u s census bureau and the governments of the virgin islands american samoa and the northern  regarding the u s territories mr chairman there are many stakeholders and today the federal government alone gives billions of dollars each year to state and local governments to spend on various projects that are deemed important by policy makers however his and his on this important issue since we spend most of our time worrying about how census counts and that affect the fifty states and various local governments we often overlook how the u s territories are treated champion of the people of puerto rico with valid arguments regarding why the territories need accurate and up to date census data besides federal spending private stakeholders use census data to make policy decisions on economic and social issues affecting the territory i join with my colleagues in urging the census get into a discussion about the absence of data collection in the u s territories the chairman given the distance and time zones that separate washington d c from our u s territories i also want to welcome those residents of the virgin islands puerto rico american samoa guam and  northern mariana islands of tuned in to listen to the broadcast of this hearing via the internet today we will hear from witnesses from two of the five u s territories each will offer their perspective on data collection or lack thereof in the virgin islands and puerto rico is my presumption that while there may be small differences treatment of the virgin islands is very slim similar to the territories of guam american samoa and the northern marianas puerto rico however due in part to its size and also an ex water issued by president the first president george bush receives more state like treatment at this time i'll note that invited representatives of the pacific territories were unable to travel here to attend this hearing but have asked that their testimony be made a islands and chairman of the subcommittee and insular affairs i often hear and i actually join in the chorus myself in the demand for equal treatment on our fellow americans not residing in one of the fifty states of our union but resided in residing instead in a state of limbo the examples run the gamut from grants to treaties voting for the next president or even voting on the floor of the house of representatives in response of these demands for equal treatment the work of our subcommittee much like yours is passed investigate the problem and find a balance between what can be done versus what needs to be done we find more often than that a willingness among among honest brokers can find a path towards fairness i look forward to our first panel of witnesses in assisting  understand the problem of executing our u s territories in whole or in part from activities conducted by the u s census bureau looking at how this explosion affects local decision making how it impacts the citizens of the national level how it affects funding of important programs and services and does it actually move our fellow americans living in the territories forward our federal witnesses have a more difficult task of explaining why these areas of x are excluded but we feel that we can count on their open mindedness and expertise to help us move in a fairer direction and we've already started those discussions again my deepest gratitude to chairman clay for agreeing to this hearing thank you very m these areas we need to determine whether our senses practices have and as i and many others suspect made it more difficult for americans leaving the territory to participate fully in the equal opportunity society our nation has always strive to achieve the primary question that congress needs to ask and obtain a clear answer to is whether social political and economic growth in the territories is impeded because the territory is are treated differently in the collection or reporting of census data and as a result are treated different adverse impact on the ability of fail and local government agencies to provide services in the territories as well as on private sector led development in the territories common sense and experience suggest that this information deficit has had  will continue to have a negative effect on the provision of a location and they also care capital investment from the states and overseas that by talent the of the local economy employment and income levels and the overall standard of living and quality of life of state of territorial wrest including the american community sure survey since two thousand and five a clear bait the latest step in the right direction nonetheless in various ways puerto rico remains at a distinct disadvantage compared with the states with respect to the collection and reporting of demographic social and economic data i would be remiss if the record did not reflect my belief that don't matter what measures congress adopted to address the particular problem discussed at these hearing puerto rico were remain at a perpetual disadvantage on this and until it normalizes its political status for the smaller territory there may be narrowly tailored solutions to the problem we examine today not so with puerto rico puerto rico's four million u s citizens live under the u s flag on their u s sovereignty and between permanent constitutionally valid several options the only genuine solution to both of this great problem we examine today and the brother problem of puerto rico's political status is for the people of puerto rico to choose the main congressionally approved process state independence but in neither case to continue their condition as second class citizens of the greatest democracy on earth is my most fervent hope that the hard work of true woman christensen on our subcommittee will come to fruition with the passage of h r nine hundred puerto rico democracy act of those on seven which has been reported to the house by the full committee on natural resources i want to conclude my statement by noting that earlier this morning i sent a letter to speaker pelosi asking that she use her leadership to bring him one hundred to a vote on finally afforded people of puerto rico the right to participate in a fully informed self determination process i will tell you what i told speaker pelosi we can someone who will and the courage to see it through passage of h r n one hundred will be remembered as one of the greatest historical issues with the european union countries thank also our distinguished chairlady questions and our ranking members for junior for bringing this to two to the forefront and over five made fellow americans who live out there in insular areas and if you want to look at an equivalent of population is a four to five the state of our country and i think we need to understand is a and i want to share with you mr chairman the general from the territory of guam my good friend former congressman ben blah he said this and i quote we are equal in war but not in peace so sons and daughters coming from the gentle areas will bleed and d and the defense of our nation and somewhere along the line every time that's a question and i realize that not all the provisions of the constitution apply to fellow americans living in this insular areas kind of like a selective sometimes of federal laws don't even when they come out we were constantly trying to fill in the holes the cracks as saying that maybe ancillaries ought to be considered on the same basis for the simple reason these are fellow americans we live and we bleed and we friends downtown concerning this issue and see what we need to do by way of legislation or changing policy so that the fares could but given better treatment by the census bureau and other agencies that deal with collecting data and information for the needs of these territories thank you mr chairman thank you so much for your opening statement let me also asked a committee without objection to close good friend with you today this is of issue s you and i have discussed on many occasions of great importance to me since becoming chairman of the appropriations and financial services subcommittee i've joined my colleagues in trying to bring fairness to the territories it is for that reason that the territories were included in the tax rebate program where because we felt that all the territories should be treated equally i was also as chairman able to get legislation for something that i think is very important some i laugh at it when they find out but it's including the territories on the corners programs the program was going to end this year having a quarter issue for every state here to expand there for another year so that the territories can get a quarter which is being designed right now as we speak last chairman during my time as ranking member on the commerce justice state committee i worked with the census bureau to try to increase the involvement of the census bureau in the territories and i'm proud to say that that work will add to the fact that in the case of puerto rico and other territories the census bureau is doing more and had been doing in the past but there's still something that is gravely missing and then that is the following many scholars when i speak to them bring up the fact that the constitution speaks to people of the state should be counted well when the constitution was written it did not anticipate folks into statehood not to keep them for that long a time so as far as i'm concerned fairness dictates that the tories be treated equally and i leave you with this thought and i want to preface my comments by saying that i'm one of the leaders on the house floor on behalf of the rights of on documented aliens but just think of this a non documented alien who lives in new york gets counted as part of the three hundred million folks who live in this country but the four million citizens who live in puerto rico don't get counted as far as a national population so when we say for instance that we have thirty five million for argument's sake hispanics in the nation not true we've got about thirty nine to forty million except the territories and i counted when we say we have roughly three hundred million americans not true we have three million three hundred million four hundred three hundred four and a half million and so part of what i would like to see not only the surveys that move to bring fairness to the territories in terms of the proper information but borough of senses with regard to the territories and i certainly agree with much that has been said by my colleague mr serrano this morning this is a very important subject because the work in the products of the census bureau are routinely relied upon by decision makers in both the public and the private sectors to make informed decisions about finances organization of resources and employment among other matters the census bureau performs a critical role in the functioning of our society today and its work in partnering with the territories to collect and disseminate data deserves to be strengthened we know the census bureau has a long history and that since its inception is has adapted to meet the needs and the challenges of a growing country and responded to emerging demands for information about demographic and social economic trends and population the territories must not i repeat that must not be left behind as the census bureau prepares the descent census required by our constitution and its development of other special surveys the territories present unique challenges including multi cultural and multi lingual populations as well as geographic disbursement of our populations in some cases among several islands furthermore there is a serious void in historical data for the territories as we look at it today so this makes sound public policy decision making very difficult and sometimes results in disparities in treatment of americans residing in the territories as compared with americans residing in the fifty states under certain federal programs so i look forward to the testimony and i'm most interested in learning how the census bureau plans to address the important issues that the governors and the committees have raised further i hope the chairwoman christianson will keep the record open for written responses to some concerns and other members may wish to make regarding the work of the office of inspector of to conduct the enumeration of citizens of the freely associated states who reside in the commonwealth of the northern marianas islands the state hawaii and american family i know it is not the main focus of today's hearings but nonetheless relevant and timely issue and i would appreciate the opportunity to see responses for the department of economic development and commerce and as deputy secretary of that department if it is the policy of the oversight and government reform committe thank you and you may be seated direct reflected the witnesses answered in the affirmative and i ask each witness now give a brief summary other testimony and to keep the summary under five minutes and direction your complete written statement will be included in the hearing record and dr frank mails we will begin with you and welcome to the comm including center the social research unit of the university responsible for conducting the descendants center for the united states budget nine i appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today i've spent the last twenty nine years of my professional career working on census related activities i therefore x the mission to include the full written statement into the healing record the principal method the us government uses to distribute a wide variety of assistance to states and local governments depends in very large measure on day to day lives from this annual cens this system makes sense for all of the obvious reasons doing it any other way would likely be disproportionate unfair and inadvertently this commenced on this is very workable reliance on accurately gathered data is applied to every one of the fifty states and to puerto rico it is not applied to the island areas as a citizen resident and principal demographic research in the u s virgin islands i can testify that by applying a whole different approach to us alone we are deprived of access to all kinds of federal assistance this includes full use of medicaid new loads schools and seniors said centers should be located national organizations and foundations also use a c s the term in funding for example a recent health initiative by a major national tongue dacian overlooked the us vi because our numbers were not in the american community survey on which they base their grand decisions we are not only among the poorest communities in the nation with approximately thirty percent of the population living below the poverty level but out also denied the tools on which to accurately assess all need and justified assistance all people greatly need many of these issues can be resolved if the virgin islands w included in the american community survey i was delighted to note and leading the acting deputy director misson blogs to prepared statement that he agrees these problems could be large of a result by including the  is the way to deal with this for congress to directly to direct the agency to do what mr mason blog stated would be good policy if necessary perhaps congress should undertake to determine whether the census bureau needs additional minimize the disparities in the twenty ten census process between the states in the us vi we suggest that one advertising plans allow more local input to maximize on knowledge of the ali too that the technology combined with the recent digital aerial photography be utilized of any of the difficulties associated with map spotting households solely that data coding be carried out by locals and for that twenty ten cen products include a publication of course tabulation of the more relevant demographics social and economic housing data finally i want to address a common misconception contra the to the perception that the exist for the virgin islands we would point to the fact that the doing that this annual census at a one hundred percent address list is developed simply put the virgin islands will compile and address a list the census bureau and the on availability of current a reliable data of these areas my name is francisco see my lady yeah i am vice president for in chief of katsina communications largest hispanic owned publisher of magazines and periodicals in the united states headquarter in of its flagship weekly newspaper caribbean business the largest circulation business publication in puerto rico in the caribbean my comments this morning will focus on the subject matter as you changed to puerto rico only and will not address to refer to other u s territories overlaying areas the first census conducted in the united states began in seventeen ninety just a year after the united nation of our first president and shortly before the end of the second session of the first congress convened of the republic those historical facts evidence the importance our found fathers attributed to the census process and as an indispensable tool to make sound decisions regarding the future of the nation and the general direction of thomas jefferson then secretary of state marshals to the census not only in the original thirteen states but also in the districts of kentucky maine and vermont and the southwest territory of today's tennessee where results came in both washington and jefferson expressed skepticism over the final count expecting a number of the far exceed of the three point nine million inhabitants returned by the cens curiously two hundred and ten years later the most recent census conducted in the land counted three point nine million inhabitants in the territory of puerto rico alone the same number reported by the first census for the entire us population the concerns that probably motivated and skepticism that is why the quality reliability and most importantly completeness of the data collected by the census in order to make decisions about the future of the nation are the same concerns that i respectfully bring to your attention today in relation to the specific case of among all entitled us citizens the adequate planning of capital improvement projects and many other federal governmental functions but further accurate census data are equally essential to economic development efforts of governments including those of the territories as well as sound business decisions by the private sector throughout the country including puerto rico puerto rico is not new to the census the u s war department conducted a census in the territory in eighteen one thousand nine months after spain seat of the island to the u s as a result puerto rico's unique needs but its border region became more integrated to the national economy over time the local government realized that a quality standard i say sion and integration with national census data were more important for all the u s citizens reciting in puerto rico th making the census that the sticks of a level at an early stage for the community of data users when comparable with previous previous descending census is where the census standard products of puerto rico were really much later than the fifty states still their areas with respect  the descending census in which puerto rico is at a disadvantage compared with the fifty states in relation to demographics social and economic data perhaps the most vexing problem regarding the accurate reporting of census data pertaining puerto rico is the utter lack of consistency in their inclusion in national totals and is the same in its decision memorandum number sixty four of one thousand nine hundred nine the census bureau stated that puerto rico would be shown in all census two thousand actual summary tables population and housing characteristics but not included in the national totals quote for recent such that this ickle consistency with other government agencies such as the bureau of labor statistics frankly that rationalization sort of begs the question before this committee furthermore with the data collected through the center of census and other surveys that you are prepared for multiple reports through the special population program many times these reports are financed by other federal agencies and many times they just decide not to include puerto rico as we understand it the format and whether or not they that totals include territories or not seem to depend on the whim of the question sponsor or data request or one of puerto rico's big frustrations is that many end products do not include the island with the state even when the data have been collected and there appears to be no rational analytical basis for the discrepancy excluding puerto rico or any jurisdiction for that matter makes for both bad policy and bad business decisions since such exclusion undermines the the insole areas and perhaps also subtotals for one of the states to the district of columbia and three all in sore or outlying areas with a breakdown by area this would allow both congress and the executive to enact policy on the basis of grand total w keeping a tally of the numbers for the states alone for any legitimate purpose for which such subtotals should be used mr chairman i don't chairwoman in the interest of time i will bring my testimony this morning to a quick conclusion and call your attention to the full of written testimony i have submitted to the committee staff which i ask respectfully be made part of the record of this hearing in it i address issues and concerns regarding the disparate treatment of puerto rico by the census bureau in its other data collection and reporting activities beyond the cen that our concerns are not limited to the census bureau data collection and reporting only but extend to other areas of federal data collection and reporting for example reports published by the centers for medicare and medicaid routinely exclude puerto rico excluding puerto rico from this when proposals are presented policies allies and legislation is approved therefore i respectfully urge you to take appropriate legislative action so that the census bureau and other federal agencies take the appropriate measures to include the same data and analysis for puerto rico as they do for the fifty states so that when congress make decisions regarding the future of the nation puerto rico is taking into consideration on an equal basis u s citizens living in the u s territory of puerto rico whether island born or born stateside discern nothing less than equal treatment you know that a subcommittee appreciate your being here to discuss this important issue we know that data collected and published by the u s census bureau is used by many decision makers could you tell us subcommittee about the specific data requested you are not able to feel because you do not have current data from the census bureau  many programs which do not benefit from federal funding because the data that's available in the virgin islands to date and or they just don't exist they the funding allocation to the islands remain fixed at the two thousand census so that five ten nine years later the bludgeon and is still receiving funding based on population figures that may be up to you speak of the impact of resource allocation to the virgin islands in your professional opinion how much money in federal funding do you believe the virgin islands have forfeited due to a lack of an annual divide benefits simply because they're there that many programs which don't even know that the budget on this path of the federal system and as a result we never know what that figure is so it is rather difficult to  suggest an overall figure but we know it's enormous homage does it calls for the university to conduct the virgin islands community service right now they local thousand so just in terms of personnel costs alone we are talking just about a one hundred fifty thousand dollars to do that on an annual basis thank you so much for that answer mr simmons of a thank you for being with us today and as well and for your testimony the examples you provided help to a little and a many other points that have been made here today can you tell the subcommittee a little more about how your industry could demick sore or researchers business people do not necessarily have access or don't look for access to two of the data of this sort so they rely on what poor example publications like her business publish in terms of  what are the latest in the economy and so on let me just add that there's another coincidence that is being under served by having less than equal data collection and reporting by the census and that is the  s business community as a whole and i can tell you from from our point of view we report on this all the time when people businesses business leaders boards of directors are looking for a new location for example for their business there they have to conduct market research if the data are not available with respect to a particular area to be able to be compared to other areas that may be considering that area is at a disadvantage in terms of its potential for economic development so therefore not having in the case of puerto rico not having up to date information at par with that that is available for the other states puts border at a disadvantage in its effort to promote economic development thank you s conducted by the bureau of the census for the bureau of labor statistics the survey has been conducted for more than fifty years its primary source of information on the labor force characteristics of the us population the estimates obtained from the current population survey clued employment unemployment earnings hours of work other indicators they're available in a bharatiya demographic characteristics including age sex race marital status saw and so forth so that  b s data are used by government policy makers and legislatures as important indicators of the nation's economic situation and for planning and evaluation of many government programs of course they're used by the press students  business leaders etc you also mention the current employment statistics and the fact that the territories are excluded what kind of employment statistics then would puerto rico have if i may i well like to ask mr mills the discussion with the director of labor statistics in the virgin islands and that was the need to have more precise data than were actually collected at the time and still are collected with data on and that's my last question you have a specific suggestion that will be a grand total for all states in terms of the census bureau tables and then we break it down by territories and district of columbia do you see from your perspective a thank you and support to you and thank you panelists dr mel's and mr team added the thank you for your thoughtful a very comprehensive testimony i did have a chance to read it and for your specific recommendations bill i just have to make this comment because you said in your testimony that always stopping the collection of data in the middle of the or collection was as that statistician's worst nightmare but it really sounds like the whole history of the territory dealing with data is a nightmare in our case for as b l s would reject the request for inclusion and current population survey then census stopped publishing interest until data changes the kind of data we should collect the latest stop funding and then to add to that we're told we can have a c f because we have no address system which is not a fact the vix when you do the be a community survey saying that even though it's sort of validity ok so that some discussions a beginning and it'll probably come up in the next panel that maybe census would pay for that for it and i guess that might have been included or if your recommendation is that we be included in the american community survey now lose lose and mrs similar if you have a if you want to respond to this as well we would lose some of our flexibility and designing our form but we would be included as i understand it then and and this dataset that everyone looks at do you have any concerns about losing that flexibility if went to a c s yesterday c s and so did you lose anything in the process i don't believe so as a matter of fact in in for for the for the census two thousand in order to retain the possibility of puerto rico specific data the government of puerto rico enter into a memorandum of agreement with the census bureau stablish in for any any special program such as a supplementary questionnaires and or special tabulations requested by the government of puerto rico would be i have two virgin islands question one you might recall that after the two thousand census the concerned virgin island group had some concerns about being able to  question from my hispanic and community there were some concerns also that the hispanic community may have been an undercount it in the virgin islands and their behalf i'd like to know what is being done to reduce the undercount if you agree that one occurred and ensure that this population is act accurately counted are you planning to include latino's amount the presence hired for the twenty ten census that as well as persons of fluent census once in ten years as not allow the census bureau to determine the ahead of time what that makeup is and that is largely perhaps what may have contributed to a less than full appreciation of the existence of hispanics in the button on population i don't we did not have any evidence of the risk of appearing defensive we did not have any evidence that there was a net on the  of the hispanic population in two thousand however in preparation for twenty ten census bureau has already determined that it will issue questionnaires in spanish we have  additionally invited a hispanic to be on the census into agency committee which now exists and in fact we will make every effort to also include representatives from  we have every indication or there is every indication that we will make additional effort to include not only hispanics in a more expansive way in the twenty ten census by by and a layman's terms are i think the census bureau currently conducting about three or four major surveys that kind of make up the whole system here we've got the current population survey  puerto rico this may decades have are you referring to the economic census ok according to my survey americans some ways none of these are so i think i made a hundred percent check on this thing a lot of times i think i notice too that maybe the substance of the federal law where the secretary of commerce is given discretionary authority and that discretionary authority many times just simply wipe us out simply because we can't justify or because of th s thresholds sometimes i hear so much about if you don't have a population level of a hundred thousand or something like that forget it then i'm going to do anything with you do you think that's fair i'm obviously not i don't think that's fair after they come out with respect to the fifty states which is difficult to understand since it's much smaller population not only that there are issues about the accuracy for it to what i say a year after at bear in mind for the for the two thousand and two economic series the manufacturing report with respect to puerto rico came out thirty four months after the data were collected the out in line and i don't mean to interrupt you the bottom line is that you're just not getting the services  d there is no i mean that's in layman's terms i'm just being very basic about this four point four million us citizens living in puerto rico and in many instances in my home with you treated like a foreign country  and by being in that as far as any sense of priority or any sense of importance to these four point four million americans that and we have to look at puerto rico in a different category because you know the rest of us into areas are much smaller in terms of population so totally understandable puerto rico if you have would be if it would become a state tomorrow you will have seven members of congress and two senators that's equivalent to four or five populations of states and so i just want to get this for the record the bottom line is that we are constantly being put between the cracks in it either anybody pays any attention problem ideas i don't think and i'm good friends in the sense of who's going to testify disadvantaged the american business community is had a disadvantage when reliable and timely economic data out of the territories are not available to them to make decisions i just make this observation mencia i think my time just about over my little territories about seventy thousand people and sixteen of my soldiers died in that terrible war that we caused in iraq i don't know about my other fellow sister territories in terms of the casualty p capital but i think we contribute pretty high amount of the blood that is spilled on behalf of our nation and let alone about thirty or fifty when i just had to go to walter reed hospital about two weeks ago one of my soldiers seriously wanted for my d d an illusion the types of things are sometimes very that on one this is and i go back to my good friend general blodgett statement we are equal in war but not in peace and i think we need to certain rights if you move to the bronx he will run and be a member of congress it just doesn't make sense at times you know you spoke both of you spoke about the lack of data playing a role in being able to deliver services is that for all services or do services that come directly from the federal government get better treatment i'll explain both parties and i say that respect in congress both parties go out of the way to say that we support the troops more than the other party yet i wonder if the veterans administration has the same information in the territories that it has in the fifty states and how that would affect the services that are provided do you have any thoughts on that to soldiers who had died and my office was tasked with getting that information and we sought the assistance of all the federal agencies including the armed forces that we knew was supposed to have that information and we came up with so little that the effort could not go forward and that that's to be disgraceful it is in my system i made made reference to the case of medicare medicaid with those reports published by the centers of medicare medicaid routinely exclude puerto rico i think i don't know if it's a chicken and egg situation but does the president on equal treatment to puerto rico with respect to medicare for example is it a reflection that the congress is less aware about the needs of a medicare population there that as i mentioned the testimony to more than those of maine new hampshire and vermont   and the way i want to ask you the question is do you agree with me or not and feel free to disagree with me it's not a problem i get angry i cry but it's not it's not a major it's not a major problem  when the constitution was written it said count the people amongst the states as i said before i never envisioned territories being how long time but i certainly never envision citizenship or american national as in samoa living in these territories so my question is if you were asked to interpret that constitution now since it is the constitution is a living and evolving doc would agree with me that that constitution does not stop the territories from having their population included in the general population of the fifty states of the nation if you will  surveys in small local area governmental areas it does not exclude any of the small island governments and yet the secretary of commerce does not see fit to extend any of these services to the islands except the single census ultimately congress and i may be a semantic problem between counting and counting in is the constitutional mandate to count the people in the states or count them in it it appears that in many respects the citizens of the territories are being counted but not necessarily counted in i would agree and just in conclusion my argument has always been and i will reiterate or for the third time today that if you decided years ago to give out american citizenship idea friend thomas emberg is here today and we will hear from later and i appreciate his presence here but this whole idea you talk about different kinds of citizenship we've always complained about second class their classes were well think of the fact that you have a total of people who live in the united states again as i said including people who are not citizens and people who are not here documented then you have another number sort of as a as a second total but never really part of the family that makes no sense mathematically and as you have stated create other issues my belief is that if you're living under the american flag if you're covered by the american constitution if you're a citizen or a national you should be counted in the total number i thank you thank you why the system and as a result we don't get the understanding of the well being of our children in the same way that goes from kentucky or any other state for that matter without the a c s would fix that absolutely want thank you if there are no further questions i would like to thank the panel for their testimony been very helpful the committee may have further questions that you would submit to you in writing and ask that you respond our first witness will be mr thomas messenger or acting director of the u s bureau of census deputy director as the census bureau chief operating officer of overseeing the day to day operations of the government's preeminent statistica mr messenger has served as associate director for economic programs a policy has held since august two thousand and five and that position he was responsible for the economic census the census of governments and more than one hundred monthly quarterly and annual surveys is the message board has worked at the census bureau since one nine hundred seventy two our second witness will be missed and nikolai paula director of the office of insular affairs of the department of statement has been submitted and will be included in the hearing record thank you madam chair a long distinguished subcommittee members thank you for the opportunity to discuss the census bureau's programs in the u s territor there are two major programs that the census bureau conducts on a regular basis in the territories the economic sciences and the dissenting old census the economic census is conducted every five years collecting data for years and into and seven and coverage of the u s virgin islands the commonwealth of the northern mariana islands squire and america samoa and puerto rico the economic census in these areas are very similar to the state side economic is conducted every ten years much of the content for each island is very similar however there are combinations made depending on the needs of each government for the pacific  america samoa guam and c n n by the content is negotiated that so that one set of questions will be asked in all three areas the content for the u s virgin islands has developed specifically to meet that government's needs for the twenty ten census and the island areas each housing unit will be personally visited by a numerator in addition to housing units address will be less did and its location will be identified on a census ma allowing the census bureau to establish an address register for each one well when considering whether or not to conduct new surveys it's important to first determine what type of data are needed how that data how those data are going to be used and for what purposes we also would consider frequency data availability and reliability and the capability of being able to publish data that meets our confidentiality standards these are just a few of the considerations we take into account when determining the design and content of new collections for data collections between census ease we use to testicle samples to reduce both the reporting burden and the lower cost most of our business surveys are mail out mail back many household surveys however are conducted by telephone or by a numerator and that of course is considerably more expensive than a mail out mail back service well what could we do more frequently we may be able to expand at a relatively modest cost the county business patterns report to include the island areas this expansion would provide annual data on payroll number of employees and the number of establishment or business locations by economic sector in each of the islands a more expensive option would be to conduct an and economic survey each of the island areas these would be a unified survey similar to the economic sciences but was scaled back content to control costs and improve timeliness on the household side beginning after the two thousand and ten census a variation of the american community survey might be consider the methodology employed would be to repeat the two thousand and ten census methods but only for a sample of the population not full numeration one challenge with this approach is developing and maintaining the address frame needed to select a sample on each of the islands another challenge of course would be building a field and post your including finding office space hiring employees and so forth well these are some initial thoughts about what we would need to be done what we would need to do to provide more current information on the island areas we'd be happy to work with the congress other federal agencies and the eyeline area governments to better understand their data needs and to explore ways that we could provide assessments more deep detailed discussions are required before we can really develop actual detailed plans and cost estimates this concludes my remarks and i'll be happy to take any questions current and complete information on population labor force and economic and social characteristics in the united states territories of americans united states virgin islands and t the office of insulin affairs often asked for statistics the united states territories but often the information is either dated or does not exist knowing the value of current information the federal government's continuously generates a wide array of information best known of the federal government agencies that generate information the bureau of labor statistics in the department of labor and the bureau of the census and department of commerce and also the bureau of economic analysis also in the department of commerce unfortunately the four united states territories works with are not included in some of those useful work these agencies do this was recently highlighted in the united states department of labor report and the impact of minimum wage increases in american family and seeing the my labor noted many holes in current data that prevented the department f making a full determination of the impact of an increased minimum wage specifically the department of labor noted and i quote the bureau of labor statistics does not collect monthly other period data describing labor market conditions americans or to c n n my close quote another important source of current data according to the report is the monthly survey of households conducted jointly by the b l s and bureau census in their current population survey which is being referred to a c p s the report notes and i quote both surveys have been important sources of data for research regarding the impact of minimum wage territories close quote apart from conducting the census the bureau of the census conducts other surveys one of the best known and most useful is the american community survey which is designed to see how those communities are changing the a c s will replace the descending long form in the future census and is a critical element in the sense a spear is really engineer twenty ten census the four territories we work with are not included in the a c s the four territories are also not included in the be a system of national income and product accounts generates complete information on total national output according to information on to be a web site territories not treated as to mastic output but rather as belonging to the rest of the world as a result of this dearth of information policy decisions often lacks the level of data and analysis that underpin decisions in many other areas of the united states an additional problem with the lack of territorial involvement in these data gathering activit resulting inability of local statistics offices and staffs to draw on the knowledge and skill pools found in the sticks national community working with highly trained professionals could prove advantageous to the territories and territorial statistics that last over the last decade has given over five million dollars to the bureau of the census and the territories in technical assistance grants to fill some of the information gaps this technical assistance however has been insufficient to bring the territory's to national standards current incomplete information is essential for good decision making whether in business government or households for this reason we believe that there is a sickness need to flexibly work with the territories to integrate them into the national data gathering framework we stand ready to work with the territories and agencies responsible for data collection to find alternative ways to gather necessary information thank you thank you both so much for your testimony and we will begin t work on the economic and the collaborative efforts between the census bureau and the local governments what should be the first step towards the development of surveys that  area we need to be clear terms of what data they want to collect how those data are going to be used for what purposes they're going to serve and then more detailed discussions would be involved at level of detail do you want to be able to publish the information if it's a household survey do we need a low level detail do we need it for towns or election does whatever the appropriate unit for business surveys it would be a similar process in my written testimony i had suggested that i thought the most cost effective way to provide annual economic data was to take up approach similar to the economic census and that way i think it would be much more assured that it was meeting the needs of the local area so i think really a meeting and a clear understanding of what the requirements are is the first step and who would be the best person for the governments of the island area and what we are suggesting is to leverage the work that we're going to do in twenty ten specifically in developing an address a master address file in each of the islands and then after we have done that work with the areas to developing a process for maintaining and updating that address file so we could then do annual surveys so the basic approach is do twenty two and census and that covers and this also includes puerto rico over a five year period we're spending about nine million dollars on that data collection now what's not included in that number are things such as we've got their data needs and then we would develop a cost estimate i believe we'd have a bit of time to do that ever talking on the households two thousand and eleven in terms of implementing but we  certainly get to a cost estimate well before that in the business it would just depending exactly what they would like our plan would be is not to collect the same level of detail as we collect in the economic census because if we do we're going to face some of the same timeliness problems that you heard about earlier thank you so much for that response and mr pullet would the office of being the authority on policy for all these requests census but ever here because we want to help out with the different surveys we in the last several years we've worked closely with the office of international program center at the census bureau and we provide some money to them when the request from the island come to us to do some of the surveys we've been average i would say the last five years between five hundred thousand and seven hundred thousand post nine hundred thousand money from our limited technical assistance pot to help the islands do some of these surveys with the help of the census bureau thank you for that and  and to improve certainly how the bureau collects and reports data on the u s territories several questions i would like to post to you regarding puerto rican particular and the other experts on the powerful for free to add anything mr poole first i'd like  to hear director mr moore your take on mr steve i mean yes argument which i find i will say quite compelling that for every census bureau table covering the states congress you're required the final include a grand total make policy on the basis of the grand total also keeping a tally of the numbers for states alone for use for any purposes and actually if i may mr chairman i'd like to include in the record a letter that i received today thank you i'll answer that first let me answer from the perspective of economics to test as as you all are probably aware we collect detailed statistics on all primary economic sectors we have monthly and annual surveys of retail trade wholesale trade manufacturing services something that  people may not understand our our current surveys are designed to provide national level estimates for the u s so they do they exclude puerto rico and they exclude the u s territories but that's done because it's significantly so and let me just clarify what that means actually so when we saw lacked the sample and we go to a firm that has locations scattered across the united states say a large discount department store you might think of we do not collect data for each location in our current surveys rather they report national level estimate of retail sales that includes all of their operations in the state so we do not publish any detailed state level county level or whatever and our current economic statistics programs with the exception of the county business patterns program that program is a byproduct o business register so we do have businesses that operate in puerto rico and the island areas are included in our business register and we tabulate that information and publish that annually and puerto rico is covered and usually in the county business patterns program it's it's not included in the u s total but the data are separately available so this would be a huge undertaking and i think an extremely expensive undertaking to redesign all of our current serv and that's really the impetus that i suggested a unified survey like the economic census be targeted to each of the island areas and that way i think it will better meet their needs and we'll actually be able to we could be be able to implement such a program so just to be clear on the question we do not have state level data for almost all of our current economic survey so this is  huge undertaking that suggestion by same token a lot of data that is collected at the national level excludes the island territories including puerto rico even when we're talking about publication a democracy as we do throughout the world so you have any specific thoughts as to how we can in the most efficient way include fully those territories certain i mean i'm interested in puerto rico which is the largest but certainly all the territories in this process well i don't have specific proposals related to including it in the u s total i do have ideas how we could provide current information on the island areas and that would be to implement annual surveys annual economic surveys in each of those island areas and publish data annually  is to try to create the capacity and we were like i said mentioned earlier work with the census bureau to have a program where the folks on the island to six often come on an annual basis in some of conducts this survey in the island area it will be official census bureau statistics and we will stand one hundred percent behind the statistics i think it's a different issue whether the total should be included in the u s total or be provided separately and people i have the capability of adding it territory we have to do one hundred percent is there any possibility that we could also do sampling instead of doing one hundred percent mr perelman i certainly  do believe there is a possibility the reason we cannot use sample laying in the twenty ten chances for example is because we haven't updated and maintained the address file in between the two  senses as part of doing the twenty ten we will stablish an address file for each of the island areas and that's what we're working with the islands we would look to see if we could use probably aware that the collecting of census data was that much different than it is in the fifty states but evidently there is some disparity there so tell me why that disparity exists and what impact it has on the people who are living there as far as the delivery of goods and services from the united states government data are consistent that we collect in the descending sciences and the economic census what we collect in the island areas is consistent and quite very similar to what we collect from mainland u well why is it that mr fortuna own one and others from the from the islands american samoa puerto rico why is it they have concerns about under existing programs there are household data are available for the island areas once only ten year and once once every ten years as part of the census and that's what we're seeing and from the fifty's in the fifty states that's still the case today so what you're saying is you don't have the information that's necessary for you to give the same kind of treatment as far as this date is concerned in the states we don't have the infrastructure in place to  night before now to try to correct that way they're treated it doesn't seem like it should be that way let me give you an example i went to guam with the representative from guam and they have an epidemic of diabetes over there and they didn't have enough dialysis machines to take care of the population they were running those things twenty four hours a day seven days a week and they still couldn't take care of the population we tried to get eight million dollars to buy additional dialysis machines which took us about three or four years to get done we finally did but it seems to me that it would be something that would be in the normal course of events that we would take care of the people who are american citizens and not have them being second class citizens as they were in guam so why does it take so long to get the information i necessary to treat them equally well one will be a function of resources and if there's a clear need for the state and the resources are provided i think we've suggested a plan that would start addressing the data both on the household side and the economic sense the side that best troubling to me because we're not talking about people who are not citizens these are citizens of the united states of america and for us to say we don't have the resources to get this data really kind of troubles me i know they're not states and i know they don't have some of the benefits that they would have if they were states but nevertheless they are american citizens and for us not to give them the same  basic things that we're giving the american citizens else in the fifty states doesn't make sense to me and when you say you don't have the resources it seems to me that's something that we should address immediately or should have addressed before now not i mean next ten years after this  we're going to be in the same boat but we say we don't have the resources to take care of the the things necessary to give them the same treatment that we are the people in the fifty states these are american citizens and we want to make sure they get the same standing leaders and the census bureau but i want to share with you a couple of statements made as part of the statement submitted by our governor for the record and this is a reference in dealing with the census bureau and and i  census bureau trust the local government to conduct the census and to uphold the law when collecting information however once the numeration is complete and all forms have been sent to the census bureau the local government is deliberately deliberately prevented domestic process during the preparation carrying out of the sensors you know russian but unfortunately it is treated under the international program can you help us help reconcile this action conduct on the part of the census bureau whether household or business is that we will publish aggregate data and we will not identify the individual location of any business or any household so once we have collected  individual data whether on a household survey or an economic sense a survey that is considered title thirteen data and the only people that actually can access th data are census bureau employees so i believe that that's the answer to to the question once we've collected all the data and we have these micro data files then they are title thirteen proper data and information from the bureau of labor statistics department labor let alone we don't even have enough information coming from the census bureau so right we're right back and square one and i cannot thank my good friend from indiana for raising the point there definitely is a disparity here if we're willing to do a complete survey of all these three of four major surveys where the state and this is not a negative reflection in any way just a wyoming with five hundred twenty two thousand people how is that different if we're going to deal with puerto rico with four point four million and i would suspect that why do we have to have and will you have to deal with the territory why can't we just you would you support maybe just do a little amendment to include the areas where these three or four major say embrace that the census bureau conducts while the census bureau serves as a collection agent for the c p s the bureau of labor statistics actually is the sponsor of the program so in american samoa but also for c m i because of these disparities and statistics both from the labor department as well as from from the census bureau how well what would be your recommendation to the congress given the fact that we're in this  dire straits right now in trying to determine what our economy  is right i don't think i'm in a position to speak for what the bureau of labor statistics can do one way or another we certainly will work with our writers deal with census with the with the census i think the  the most effective thing we could do on the economic side is to move forward with an annual economic survey of each of the island areas as i said our monthly quarterly and annual survey do not provide any coverage by state so that would be a huge undertaking to try to redesign those to cover what would be the approximate cost to say that t a cost estimate for what it would take to do an annual economic survey but it would be last then what it is to conduct the economic census and economic census and the four island areas plus puerto rico is as i said about eight million eight to nine million dollars over a five year cycle so it would probably be two million dollars maybe last and not at all we just do on the island area i realize that once you put the thing in place uninformed about that we can go back and check it's my understanding that the imports from and number is the states and as i mentioned earlier i'm certainly not a the same amount of time in this business and that's what i meant you know what you had heard throughout the years traditionally has been that it's a constitutional question that's still what you keep claiming from other folks at the sense  basically one of the primary objectives is to provide source data to the bureau of economic analysis for a calculation of the g d p and g d p right now does not include puerto rico or the business locations in our annual survey we will collect national level data from fifty thousand firms and our quarterly survey will collect it from six thousand if suddenly we were required to provide data by state and those samples would have to be hugely increased to be able to provide that on the economic side the driver one of the main drivers says ben what kind of data are the same questions on race that it did before in the same way and i i refer you to the fact that i've said this at other hearings that my experience in new york has been that the toughest question for puerto  and both of us would intend to continue our oversight responsibilities and sure that we're moving in the right direction with that mr chairman i want to point out that all of the governors of each of the u s territories would likely be on the east coast in the coming months for the national governors association summer session i believe that both the census bureau and the department of interior should take advantage of this opportunity to begin to start coming to an agreement on how data can begin to be compiled hearing i want to thank the palace as well for their for your insights and all my colleagues for our interest certainly it's obvious and i recall the words stated earlier today by my dear friend from new york congressman serrano the founding fathers never intended for territory to last one hundred one hundred twenty years in limbo and so this has for precautions and everything is just one of many other repr questions we as a nation are confronting and while we're at other will have to face them i hope we do it sooner rather than later but in the meantime we have to address the needs always try to work together to thank you mr chairman for your initiative and your leadership in joining together with our subcommittee to conduct this hearing that is so important for the in two areas and i also want to commend my good friend from indiana mr for for thinking about us and hopefully that the disparities that we now have come to discover about how the insurers are being treated both by the census bureau as well as the bill or by the department of labor that we brief i know that you're one of the leaders you are the leaders and the census area i wish you would carry the message back from all of us those who are in the islands but in the fifty several states as well that we really think all american citizens regardless of where they are ought to be treated the same and wherever there's a disparity it ought to be corrected as quickly as possible thank you thank you but this is serrano and closing remarks very that history is a profound statement are you aware that major league baseball lists people born in the bronx a puerto rican patented native born americans and their cousin who was signed in puerto rico us foreign baseball players and a couple of years ago there was a study done of foreign born members of congress and i was listed so there goes the gentleman the americans are more produces more n f l players in any other state or territory get in touch with me my staff and again thank all of the members for participating today and that concludes this