pitfalls it's not perfect but it just depends on what people want to be careful of that in our report that we identify things that are specific to you know if there are different says that there are differences that are specific turnover and effects turnover as well too which you know get into great detail but it can be mitigated in large part by having a clear objectives and goals that are set policy rather than having you know regulations and so there's not a whole lot of you know change her or you know somebody's going to come in and cast a vision you're easy going to yeah whereas you have other departments which are their mission is more subjective and  towards an understanding of whether one form of government influences that over a different form of government right you know so that should always be the focus of it yet if we find for instance that it's a call about a system would do that and it's because it was a county manager everything else too but you know then it becomes will only those golden people move up into management so all kinds of gyrations of this stuff can take place but you know i mean there's no  very first page mark say has and i and that's my whole point to this is that we don't have a comprehensive management system in place and some of the things you mention are result of having no comprehensive management system so i implementation performance assessment improvement management review all this other stuff personalities political agendas all that is going to play more of a major role than we need it to be out so that's coming out still go back to and if that's the point that we decide needs to be made you have the end of it we need to make a recommendation and my producer did the recommendation can be there we see there's no substantive difference but outside of fixing these issues  the decision between choosing a strong mayor or a county manager comes down to the values of the people that are under them right and their perception of which values are attached to which form of government so right now in a lot of people's minds the idea of efficiency and economy is attached to the county manager for we govern for whatever reason and that's what people care about so our if we fight for instance that there's no substantive difference between the two of them when we stick to the value we say ok people care about this economy and efficiency but when we really dig into this it's not necessarily the county manager that brings this economy and efficiency against these other things so in that way we say ok we analyzed both sides knew this is what we found and this what we are committed to right so if we stick to the values of what the people are then we can make would be able to hear grass to what the city actually needs to do have policies and procedures just have performance and says because as you go through it i keep going back to the h r grants review but as you go through that average multiple department head in many cases not all cases as well as the managing director and the mayor all at once and that's different than the sort of turnover that you could see within you know a county manager in which case departments you don't see it you know you water supplies not change what they're doing right you know when and when new leadership comes in but but you know help housing if you services and stuff you can see that kind of a change in philosophy from one leader the former leadership to another and change isn't always bad it's not always good but you know if it's just interesting procedures in place so if you're department's mission is to do this and through the procedures of how you get excited by her person i've got a home list of what she does every day you know and this is how you do it this is who you talk to follow up on that and this is your job description we should have in place and what i'm wondering as well if we started it just generally saying you know do you guys have an implementation for mission statement or an objective for your department and what you're performing or do you have a performance assessment review i mean everything our business your your case player everybody gets employed would have a job through the job performance review and they would know on the front hand what their job was and what they were supposed to do on a daily basis i doubt if that isn't happening now and that needs to be addressed him because otherwise you don't have any accountability because everybody just does what they want to see if it really exist money not to getting back on the results so you know that was the best case scenario you've got a division head who helps through the transition and you have especially two months of lost productivity per se it that way but they dedicate themselves to a sunni transition for two months if you don't have to if you have more of a hostile you didn't head it in the four months plus they can they can check out two months before the transition occurs and efficiency in general and the structure of the government itself so there because there's room for some good recommendations there even with our current with our current structure you compare that to turn of the way turnover might occur if we had a county so the answer to that is not the old overall way that time served but the time served today so that that's not necessarily reflective of the average total length of time country today it would be them out of time they started from their current position in their car position to today and they're not all going to quit tomorrow so there's there's more time ok i see as so it's from the point where their as yeah so our local one and that's the other and i don't have a source for this because i called them that one of the guys over at me i was in these acronyms screwed up but these national association kind of management structure you know you couldn't you can install good management practices and leave behind the folks that are the best qualified and not just politically highly trained highly educated well kind of management  for example having the council approved appointees which might help maintain that through an election change or having the council her having   moody's and it's those able to get the methodology that they used when they gave us our credit rating and and there was no there was nothing in there looked it out we looked at twenty different articles ranging from almost we need fifteen academic pieces of literature and then five white papers partitioner reports so on and so forth going from one nine hundred sixty all the way up to two thousand and fifteen i did a pretty systematic search so i'm pretty sure that we've got just about i would say i'd be difficult for me to say that we did we missed something i don't think we missed something story and police fire public works at a show where those four and you know there's always other budgetary reason they look at but those were the ones that were most consistent reported that make up the largest portion of a lot of places fire and police by far work so they need to look a lot of those kinds of these so the most common process is you take it you find some number of cities or counties or units you divide them as to whether they are a county manager or a stronger form of government and then you compare those units against each other in some way so they do pretty much of that in a lot of different forms for a lot of different places and some of them older type as well and have that work out for how that works out is if it's pretty much done if you know if you're looking for you know i know out strong but a strong majority of that's eighteen out of the twenty would say there is no difference filed if those studies i really like these studies for a lot of different reasons  mostly because this paper is also driving coal weiss county manager report when i talk to them about it so what they're looking at their economy and efficiency they mention this report as well i have a strong inclination to think that the i c m a is the one who gives them this report between the use of public expenditure per capita which is the same figure but they also include this other which is it is the number of employees per capita so they look at the number of employees within cities per capita combine the two together and i have all kinds of methodological issues with the over eight hundred thousand population or something like a very large cities not zero eight hundred by like three hundred thousand or greater which my potency if you're close to right now but so the sample that they choose for that are only the very a mayor to the county manager that we would save ten percent i see be completely erroneous cost absolutely completely erroneous you cannot make that connection it's not sound and it is in no way a way in which to make policy is bright and i talked about this so the idea so going from this kind of abstract study of ten eight to ten percent down to palm beach county council members i call to go through this process for three months every single year between the mayor's budgets and then the embedded budget every year they fight over between three and five percent every single year they fight to detail for one position to position between that so that the real amended budget is somewhere between what the marriage proposal and what the county council calls where do we get the jump from this three to five percent difference to a ten percent difference i have no idea where we might tell we have nine council members every year for three months fighting over three to five percent in our town to where even to find ten percent and i take very seriously that our councils county council members are doing their best to find that ten percent and over the course of six to seven years three months every single year they can't find ten percent i think the other thing to this and i think  report last year you remember one time it came up that our funding for the department wonderful our department we'd love to have was twenty six million versus a one who's which was what all or something of what there's where it was that's not right so our only way because it every it goes back to every service has a description and an evaluation and they do it or not you can't tell me that a million bucks go in and to supervise kids that there are dead and services and there's no accountability is money well span i'd rather see him spend eight hundred consolidate the services and have an accountability and i have a lot of experien to make the point yes why as soon as we start adding other areas we're running out of spending money we lose the ability to have a meaningful comparison with other counties you know and that's important for our purposes here right so  control well like in trouble we need to get that stuff so john if you don't mind maybe will contact you and then we can have a little chat about this yeah yeah yeah ok hayes and i am actually approval as well current and with pretty much the exact same how it is the exact same council that we have right now they all bill of not all of them but they they decided not to go forward with this  with these department heads and if he has less control over who he's appointing as well as a colleague hence they saw that there could be problems because of that so they felt that especially the managing director because the managing director who worked the most closely with the  executive actions executive powers doing those kinds of things so they said they wanted that to directories which is the equivalent to the county manager at the right now to continue as being appointed by the mayor with no condition point is a little bit different but it didn't lead in to what our recommendations would be so for example if our recommendation was that we make them the managing director subject to cultural trouville well we've tried to do that already at the very same council said that they don't want to do that so it's just cutting off these kinds of arguments before we make that recommendation because if we made that recommendation we have to say ok well a lot of what the this is the first place has anything for government gins out some of the most the best talent in this country you know what are you tonight federal i'm talking all government really have absolutely no work for the federal government that's why yeah i know i  email that the county council has formed a task force and they are meeting today at one thirty downstairs  let you know two or three months of just a short discussion will get us a big jump start on the topic i have a course in about that then when do we have a have preferred have a date where we get that st care what the benefit of that was is anybody can call that department and be directed to the right area and that was a big help in that and the city of memphis because they didn't have any car services  maui community media you're watching channel fifty three aku green government and public affairs and we cut videos to san to japan and we were i was going to take my group of local early students to japan but then the the tsunami hit and we couldn't go and so through a kaku we were able to get some we were able to film some short some songs and then put them up on youtube and then send them to our contacts in japan so that we could spread our happiness and a lot through music and help the folks out and that would not have been possible