joint hearing of the committee on the judiciary subcommittee on commercial and administrative law and subcommittee on crime terrorism and homeland security will now come to order without objection that chair will be authorized to declare recess of the hearing at any point i will now recognize myself for a short statement during a march sixth two thousand and seven commercial and administrative law subcommittee hearing on a measure regarding the appointment of u s attorneys we pose the following question are important decisions about our justice system being made for political reasons seeking answers the judiciary committee has investigated whether department whether the department of justice has allowed politics to seep into its decision making the investigation focused on the firings of several united states attorneys for their reluctance to bring politically based prosecutions gathered evidence led the judiciary committee to look into other activities of the justice department namely whether the justice department's hiring of career employees was based on the legal criterion of political filiation we also began an examination of whether the justice department brought federal prosecutions based on political motivations today we continue this investigation and focus on another aspect of the justice department's action if the justice department prosecuted individuals for political expediency did it refrain from prosecuting individuals for political purposes today's hearing is a second joint  commercial administrative law subcommittee and the crime terrorism and homeland security subcommittee on allegations of selective prosecution at our first joint hearing in october of two thousand and seven we heard testimony about democrats being disproportionately targeted for federal prosecutions under the current administration this joint hearing will focus on limited federal prosecutions against republican leaning individuals and groups under this administration the department of justice has investigated allegations of voter fraud but has seemingly turned a blind eye to investigating allegations of vote suppression on election day in two thousand to republican party members and a republican political operative impeded the new hampshire democratic party and the manchester firefighters association in their efforts to get out the vote a department of justice investigation into the incident led to four individuals being indicted or pleading guilty for their involvement in suppressing voter turnout however there are allegations that senior justice department officials limited the inquiry possibly to prevent the investigators from determining whether white house officials and top republican national committee personnel were involved as a result the judiciary committee was requested to investigate allegations of vote suppression in new hampshire we do not know if the investigators were able to determine why there were many phone calls between one of the indicted individuals james tobin and the white house on the day of the election however we have learned that the r n c has paid the legal fees to defend mr to open a decision apparently approved by the white house if there if there are indications that more senior officials in the aryan see or even the white house were involved why did the justice department appear to limit the investigation we also have learned that the justice department did not fully investigate another troublesome allegation of suppression media reports in two thousand and four revealed that employees of and associates a republican connected voter registration firm were apparently trained to falsely identify themselves as nonpartisan and then register republicans to vote while discouraging democratic leaning individuals from registering to vote for those democratic leaning voters who completed registration cards sproule employees in pennsylvania oregon and west virginia allegedly destroyed those rise those registration cards although these activities are clearly aimed to suppress the democratic and to favor republican candidates the justice department quickly determined that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute sproule and associates if the media alleged vote suppression efforts by a republican connected firm why did the justice department not fully investigate these activities on three separate occasions the judiciary committee has requested from the attorney general answers to a series of questions and documents about the justice department's handling of these cases the justice department has failed to address our specific questions and has only provided cursory responses we have also invited the department of justice to send a witness to testify at this hearing but it has chosen not to present a witness that is unfortunate because the american people need to be assured that political considerations play no role in determining whether a justice department investigation is pursued or whether an individual is prosecuted finally although some may allege that we are wasting time holding this hearing i question whether those critics would tell the american people that an investigation into efforts to suppress the right to vote is a waste of time the american people want to be secure in the knowledge that the federal government will protect their right to vote and will prosecute individuals who seek to limit that constitutional right there's simply no place for partisan politics in a prosecutor's decision to move forward with a prosecution or to end an investigation accordingly i look forward to the testimony of our witnesses today before i conclude i'm going to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record two documents relevant to this hearing today the first document is a september eighteenth two thousand and seven request from representative paul hodes who is here with us this afternoon to chairman conyers to investigate allegations of phone jamming in new hampshire on election day in two thousand and two the second document is a letter from holliman mccullough the manager of carnegie library of pittsburgh squirrel hill dated april twenty ninth two thousand and eight in the letter mr mccullough described documents evidence from fall of two thousand and four involving voter registration efforts by sprawling associates i now at this time would like to recognize my colleague mr cannon the distinguished ranking member of the subcommittee for his opening remarks in particular i think this the second time you testified before this committee the other time on a rather more technical and frankly more interesting topic i think that was performance royalties as i recall the courts and the department of already dealt with them that's picking up now as we head toward the two thousand and eight election makes you wonder if this hearing is more about election year politics than genuine oversight and third ask is it the department that is selectively prosecuting or is the democratic majority in congress selectively investigating we all know that even had this of the bush administration the prosecuting public corruption on both sides of the aisle and other put it charge cases and we all should  allegations flung by the obama and clinton campaigns this election and file election cycle allegations that each of these campaigns has attempted to suppress the other's votes why are we not investigating that we've held a host of hearings this term  allegations the department has been politicized none of them have been substantiated along the way the majority has ignored a host of other real and pressing issues in the country urgently needs to tend to we should be holding hearings on those pressing issues today which brings me to my final point some weeks ago i wrote the chairman urging her to hold hearings on neglected republican bills to stamp out discriminatory state taxes from cellphones to pipelines other ranking members wrote similar letters to the chairs you know the heading the title of today's hearing as little is intriguing it's the joint hearing on allegations of selective prosecution part to the erosion of public confidence in our federal justice system that title encompasses a host of very important thrown out i repeatedly of asked the chair to she says that she needs to substantiate it let us hope that at least a hearing has something worthwhile either in the way of substantiating corruption or recognizing that we're chasing shadows here think about i'm sure you'll back the gentleman yells back a time i reckon and i recognize my colleague mr scott the distinguished chairman of the subcommittee on crime terrorism and homeland security for his would have helped republicans some think the these allegations are serious and maybe not so serious but the fact is we've been unable to ascertain the truth of the allegations for several reasons for example several senior department of justice officials question the credibility of the attorney general's original response to the allegations several high ranking justice department officials have quit another one pleaded the fifth white house officials have refused  respond to subpoenas and the u s attorney incident highlighted a growing concern and that is the misuse of prosecutorial discretion to affect elections in october last year we all enjoyed hearing where the republican former attorney general dick and others testified about politically motivated and aggressive prosecutions that benefited republicans today's hearing is a follow up of that folk that focuses on allegations of interference with voters rights and the department's failure to adequate investigate and prosecute voter suppression cases including the phone phone jamming case that arose in new hampshire in two thousand and two them equally troubling activities of sproule associates during the two thousand and four election cycle that also benefited republicans although these incidents occurred years ago they have been stymied in conducting meaningful oversight on these issues due to the department's refusal to meaningful respond to meaningfully respond to requests for information and in fact we invited the department of justice to today's hearing but they declined to send anybody the phone jamming it's an involve the jamming of telephones belonging to the new hampshire democratic party in the manchester firefighters association on election day two thousand and two this destruction of the get out the vote efforts has led to the criminal prosecution of three perpetrators two of them serving jail time including alan raman a witness here today and charles mcgee the two thousand and two executive director of the new hampshire republican party these individuals pleaded guilty to charges under eighteen u s c three seventy one conspiring to commit the offense of engaging in interstate telephone communications with the intent to annoy or harass although the prosecutions of relatively low level officials has proceeded there are serious questions about the scope of the department's investigation and prosecution effort and its failure to go after a higher level officials according to published reports twenty two phone calls were exchange between the new hampshire republican officials on the white house office of political affairs starting at eleven twenty a m on election day two thousand and two and running past two a m on election night and one hundred ten phone calls replace  tobin the new england director of president bush's two thousand and four campaign and the white house in the two months surrounding the election it is not clear what action if any was taken to determine the significance of these communications and to make to add more intrigue to the case the special agent working on the matter allegedly was instructed not to follow the investigative leads back to washington second matter today's hearing pertains to voter registered voter registration firm's r associates which declined to register democratic voters and even apparently went so far as destroying registration cards collected from democratic voters in several states during the two thousand and four election cycle a former employee described in trained to register only republicans and to tear up democratic registrations in that state the alleged misconduct taken by this firm clearly suppress votes and would violate federal law yet we are unaware of any meaningful justice department action with regard to this firm and practices and engaged in these two cases read to a growing list of disturbing incidences that raise questions as to the department's impartiality in pursuing or choosing not to pursue cases the department commitment to protecting it enhancing all citizens right to vote has also been damaged and needs to be restored i hope this hearing will help clear up the air about these two unusual cases you know back the gentleman yells back when i thank mr scott for his opening s t at this time i would recognize mr comment for his opening remarks thank you chairwoman sanchez i must agree with my colleague ranking member cannon you know why are we here today the majority has been wasting the committee's time and resources for sixteen months now trying to find some silver bullet that they believe will completely destroy an administration that some here on capitol hill despise now we just cut short a mark of seven crime bill so we could hold a hearing on these allegations of supposed selective prosecution for political purposes we went all through that was as the majority went after attorney for political reasons letting go some u s attorneys so much time was wasted we were taking a just a couple within the last hour to what might be the most didn't finish the bill so we could stop that and come in here and have this hearing there the claim apparently is selective prosecution in a case that dates back to two thousand and two and allegations of phone jamming in new hampshire six years ago this issue is a bit old barbara just has already brought charges against the four individuals alleged to been involved in this case is old enough that two of the defendants who pled guilty of already completed their sentences the majority claims misconduct by the white house the just department there are in say once again desperation has led us to have a hearing on bicyclists accusations against nameless individuals now there apparently were some bases in those are being pursued and and if there is a base then pursue it but this wasn't this hearing wasn't held i must point out in two thousand and seven we waited until any lection year to hear about republicans using politics we we've heard over and over had hearings repeatedly concerned about issues like scooter libby and we've had joseph wilson come in here and testify and i'd tell you hurting testify more and once and as a former judge it sure looks to me like we've had false testimony nobody's pursuing any of that we had scooter libby prosecuted when the special prosecutor knew immediately after beginning the investigation that scooter libby did not leak the information so he goes after him gets him to make more than one statement and then pursues him for making a false statement which suddenly appears to make it could be done against joseph wilson without a special prosecutor but that's not being done what i find truly ironic is that unlike the any of the previous rants about selective prosecution this actually involves republican and not democratic defendants what appears here or is it that the case involves a democrat the department went too far the involved a republican it didn't go far enough again is there possible hypocrisy here let me just point out with attorney general gonzales the hearings made clear over and over there was no illegal or unethical conduct u s attorneys were let go for political reasons we had a president named clinton let go ninety two u s attorneys and it was purely for political reasons there were allegations there was more skullduggery than that none of that was pursued and not even with the new justice department i was informed that bob ney who was being investigated was told you either in in two thousand and six or we won't negotiate and if that were true that's clearly this justice department using politics to help one party over another we had hearings we've hired and had information amazing over the issues involving congressman jefferson if if the justice department could prove a fraction of what they swore to in the writing page affidavit they could have had him prosecuted long before the two thousand and six election yet here all this time later nothing has been as the prosecution has not moved forward there were reports of other democratic members of our body who according to published reports and newspaper allegations of but danger of criminal wrongdoing nothing seems to be coming forward from the justice department there we had election fraud that was alleged in washington state yet nothing was pursued there when it would have helped republicans said the time of the gentleman has expired oh i didn't see a clock well let me just been finished since i didn't those were laydown prosecutorial cases so i have trouble getting all upset on this list let justice take its course ask closing comment i asked one of the leaders in the just department previously is the mayor of appointed republicans in your department just so that the democratic underlings in the department just run things and he said the veneer is much thinner than you would ever imagine back the gentleman yells back his time at this time i would like to recognize the chairman of the full committee on the judiciary mr conyers for his opening statement thank you madam chairman appreciate these hearings and  the fact that we have two of our colleagues chris cannon and judge a gomer that i consider to be personal friends joining examination this afternoon i think it is very critical i've been listening carefully and both my friends have  asked about other investigations that you and your wisdom have chosen not to pursue but since they've listed and publicly i would like to meet with wants to even examine concerns about voting matters expressed by the clinton and obama campaigns i notice that the mccain campaigns are not significant enough to reach his concern but we were not as important as the hearings were this morning i say to judge gomer we're talking about people who have violated election laws and the criminal code some of whom i've already found guilty and some whose trials are pending but you say we can't we don't need to worry about the ones that have been found guilty and we can't question the ones that are about to go to trial what are we here for to me sharon and members of this committee the single most important responsibility of the house judiciary committee between now and november fourth is to bring back the most on this and protected and guaranteed system of casting our ballots for governance that we've had that that we needed and have not had in a long time everyone here knows that the elections of two thousand and two thought laws and for created all their books written on it and their law suits their people imprisoned  t i want my members on the house judiciary committee to be interested and concerned about how we get most people to feel comfortable about th of their right to vote the integrity of the voting process and of the administration of justice itself that's why we have jurisdiction over the department of justice the reason is to make sure that the justice department does its job and i have letters going back to may twelfth two thousand and six where i've been asking attorney general then attorney general alberto gonzales to appoint a special prosecutor i've got letters going  about the subject matter that we're discussing today i have about three letters i think so far to his successor attorney general casey asking for the the republican national committee is in big trouble in several respects but the one that we're concerned with the most today is the day they think of the prosecution and interfering with the related the related civil case in the new hampshire phone jamming case the failure to bring any charges in this brut case that was there was a videotape of destroyed democratic registration cards and extensive evidence of numerous acts of registration and voting misconduct and what has our committee madam chair and gentlemen of the committee gotten out of this almost total stonewalling almost regard to where there is or are involved we're going to continue an investigative investigation and as lawyers take our experience  anywhere that it may lead including if necessary subpoenas for the relevant documents now this is directly to the attorney general of the united states whom i consider a friend of mine you better get some documents answered fast mr attorney general or you will be receiving a requests from me to the committee to issue a subpoena in this regard i am not going to be slow walk through the november four elections as if i haven't been here forty two solid years w gentleman yield with pleasure i think the gentleman and the chairman committee and in fact as is almost always the case we have large areas of agreement and only one point that i would like to make the germans talk about returning back to a state where we have confidence in the system we have a great deal more information today about the system i think it's important i think the gentleman agree that the american people need to have confidence in the system of how we vote and how their votes are counted but that in comparison rather than saying back to a system i would hope the gentleman say we've always had flaws maybe historically much greater flaws than we have currently but there is be characterizing it there is no no place for known errors that should be left unprosecuted because i would hate the american people to listen to this hearing and think that somehow in the vast majority of cases their votes or our perverted  or discounted are not counted appropriately i think it's pretty clear that the vast vast majority of voting is done in ways where people show up at their local precincts they're known by the people that hand out ballots and those are not partisan people but people who are committed to a process and that where we have those rare areas we ought to prosecute them the disagreement here is only whether or not the appropriate thing is to oversee a prosecution in the midst of the prosecution as opposed to looking at the whole system to find out where where those errors might be and frankly we have a much larger problem in america i think in the current examples of problems of voting and that is with the discretion of prosecutors which is virtually unchecked and that's an area where i think it's vital this committee's focus some attention and so while not disagreeing largely i would hope that the american people take from this that we are said us and looking at violations but that the system as a whole has proven itself to be sound and that when a person votes his vote is overwhelmingly likely to be taken as it is and counted appropriately and the elections that are based on his or her votes are appropriately night knowing that things are mostly ok and there are only a few things that we have to clean up in the process well we've got a department of justice that is supposed to be doing the cleaning up when we're not a prosecutorial body we don't come here to name who's committed crimes or who should stand trial to be found guilty or innocent what we do is investigat oversight and improve the legislative process as as a result of that and so that's all we're trying to do but when you have the the level of politicization and i am not naive about this didn't start doing that this present administration i don't i don't suggest that at all and i hope that that we can continue this hearing  without becoming partisan in our comments and we we were all avid republicans and loyal democrats and all that but when we come to the hearings of this committee it's far more important that we try to prove to the american people rather than tell most things are ok many things are not ok and no one knows better than chris cannon we've got a problem with the machinery the computer system the touch screen all of that isn't this or a we've got a witness  here written books about this subject matter and so i'm going to put the rest of my comments in the record and skew unanimous consent to put in the may twelfth two thousand and six letter   for the information that's needed for this committee to have the kind of hearings that we deserve and i thank the general a d for her generosity in allotting me time without objection the documents  made a part of the record will be made a part of the record i want to thank you for your opening statement i am going to urge members that we move the hearing along as quickly as we can and for that reason i'm pleased to introduce our first witness  our witness for the first panel is congressman paul hodes who represents the second district of new hampshire elected on november seventh of two thousand and six representative hodes has emphasized economic development health coverage for college students and the need for independent advocates for veterans as part of his first term goals mr hodes currently serves on the oversight and government reform committee and the financial services committee prior to his election to congress mr hope served as an assistant attorney general and as a special prosecutor for the state of new hampshire i want to thank you for your willingness to participate in today's hearing without objection your written statement will be placed into the record in its entirety and we're going to ask that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes i'm sure you're familiar with the lighting system  so i'm not going to belabor that point and at this time i would welcome your testimony on the subject matter of today's hearings it doesn't kind of gotten off on some relevant but ten gentle issues about voter suppression  at this time i would invite you to give your oral testimony thank you chairwoman sanchez chairman conyers ranking member cannon chairman scott ranking member gohmert and distinguished members of the committee for holding this important hearing  today i'm glad to be able to testify and raise some of the unanswered questions that surround the new hampshire phone jamming case in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight justice hugo black wrote no right is more precious in a free country than that of having a vote in the election of those who make the laws under which as good citizens we must live other rights even the most basic are illusory if the right to vote is undermined competition in ideas and governmental policies is at the core of our electoral process and in the first amendment freedom nearly six years ago political operatives sought to subvert our electoral processes for their own political gain today we're talking about the integrity of our elections the very foundation of representative democracy i'm here to help ensure that new hampshire voters are represented their elections are conducted with integrity and that justice is served on november five two thousand t election day republican political operatives jammed the phone lines of key democratic get out the vote efforts three of those political operatives have been prosecuted for this scandal allen raymond who i expect to testify here today was the political operative hired by the new hampshire republican party and was responsible for jamming the phones he pleaded guilty to conspiracy to engage in interstate telephone communications with intent to annoy or harass on june thirtieth two thousand and four charles mcgee the two thousand  executive director of the new hampshire republican party pleaded guilty to conspiracy to engage in interstate telephone communications within ten to annoy harass on july twenty eighth two thousand and four james tobin was the two thousand and two regional political director for the republican national committee and the two thousand and four new england director for the bush cheney campaign tobin was convicted of conspiracy to commit telephone harassment and aiding and abetting telephone harassment understander fifteenth two thousand and five he was later acquitted on appeal his case now is in the first circuit court of appeals despite years of investigation and prosecution significant and serious questions remain unanswered there is evidence that the political scheme runs deeper and wider than these individuals who were prosecuted and convicted this committee as you have heard has been investigating the phone jamming case since two thousand and six when on may twelfth two thousand and six chairman conyers asked then attorney general gonzales about the quote outstanding issues in the phone jamming case and requested the appointment of a special prosecutor additional letters were sent by senators leahy and kennedy of the just senate judiciary committee to then attorney general gonzales however no special prosecutor was ever appointed and the bush administration continues to claim executive privilege on key questions it remains unclear whether the white house was involved in the phone jamming scandal on election day two thousand and two twenty two phone calls were exchanged between new hampshire republican officials and the white house office of political affairs from eleven twenty a m to two seventeen a m who at the white house received those calls were white house officials knowledgeable of the phone jamming or plans to jam the phones are there documents that the white house possesses that could help the committee on the department the committee or the department of justice to answer these questions secondly there were major delays in prosecuting the phone jamming case that have not been properly investigated the phone jamming occurred on november five two thousand and two yet mr tobin was only indicted after the two thousand and four presidential elections where he was an employee of bush cheney two thousand and four furthermore according to the mcclatchy news wires as recently as december nineteenth a department of justice employee admitted that senior d o j officials delayed the investigation did the d o j deliberately wait until after the two thousand and four presidential election to begin the prosecution of a bush cheney two thousand and four employee in short we need to know whether others were involved in the election interference whether they attempted to cover up the involvement of other political operatives and whether there was a concerted effort to prosecution was there a connection between the phone jamming plot the republican national committee in the white house the question has been asked before many years ago essentially what did they know and when did they know it at the very least the d o j had a conflict of interest in investigating this political scheme and should have appointed a special crop prosecutor the questions surrounding phone jamming warrant and unbiased complete investigation which we have not had the people of new hampshire and of america deserve nothing less than the full truth they deserve to know whether the two thousand two elections they participated in were tampered with by republican political operatives and whether there was a concerted effort to cover up the political trickery i commend this committee for trying to give the citizens of my home state and this country the answers that they deserve the right of granite staters to enjoy free and fair elections was put in jeopardy and they need to know the full truth political fraud cannot be allowed to compromise the electoral process it happened before and acts that compromise our process undermine the fabric of democracy and have no place in america election tampering degrades who we are as a nation and as a democracy let's make sure that those who broke the law and betrayed the people's trust are brought to light and brought to justice thank you and i'll be happy to answer any questions you may have with me thank you congressman house we certainly appreciate your testimony and we understand how important it is to you and that in fact is why we are looking at these issues of politicization of the d o j and through the numerous avenues that we've had at our disposal to to ask questions and to try to receive information that would help clarify these and many other issues we have gotten very little if any cooperation from the department of justice to help us in our investigation so i can hear the frustration your voice i share that frustration i think this subcommittee really has sought in good faith to try to get details of information so that we can check to make sure that the progress of the process has integrity that it's nonpartisan in the application in the prosecution of laws and that has been time and time again but at this time we normally too are five minutes five minutes for questioning i don't have any questions for you i would ask if there are any others on the guys that  the activity you testified about happened about six years ago right correct and you had three people who were found guilty one is still on appeal and that's he was reversed the prosecution of the guilty plea is now on appeal right correct really what i'm here to do is to raise questions more than give you answers there are many others who are from it more familiar with the intimate details of what happened there are records which show hundreds of phone calls from various of the people involved in this scheme and in particular as i've suggested on election day twenty two phone calls were exchanged between new hampshire republican officials and the white house office of political hires and the if you don't if you don't know the understanding is that the telephone jamming ended about seven thirty so it did not go on for very long is a look around jamming didn't go on for very long that your understanding my my understanding is that telephone jamming occurred whether it went on for very long or not this is not an argument pardon me this is i'm just trying to if you don't understand if you don't have the history of it's that's fine i'm asking you don't know then when the when the stuff i don't have the precise time are you aware of who called it  seven am to nine pm continue throughout the day and as your information suggest that it was planned from seven to nine or that was it went from seven to nine my information is my understanding is that there was no plan to terminate the phone jamming earlier and i would defer to others who are more intimately involved in these matters you will be hearing from attorney paul toome y who was intimately involved in all phases of both criminal and civil cases which resulted from this matter and i bet that he will be able to give you specificity the answers you seek as well the  was just going to mention that our second panel of witnesses probably more appropriately can answer that detail including my time you have i understand regarding this and again i don't mean to have to the witness i just want to find out what he knows  ok i'd like to call the subcommittee to order i know that we have two of our three witnesses for the second panel seated but as we're expecting votes at approximately three fifteen i'd really like to get everybody's testimony and before then i'm going to go ahead and  introduce the witnesses on our second panel for today's hearing our first witness on this panel is alan raymond mr raymond is a business development consultant and one of the authors of how to rig an election the confessions of a republican operative prior to writing his book during the two thousand and two new hampshire elections which resulted in his conviction and a three month federal prison sentence our second witness is paul to me mr toomey owns a private law practice focusing on criminal defense and voting rights law prior to  worked for the new here public defenders program since two thousand and four mr toomey has represented on a pro bono basis the new hampshire democratic party the republican democratic and independent candidates for office on issues such as ballot order rotation may decade redistricting and the new hampshire phone jamming case he has served as state counsel for the howard dean presidential campaign and associates state counsel for the kerry edwards campaign mr to me is currently the new hampshire legal chair for the obama campaign and our final witness for has just joined us is mark crispin miller professor miller teaches media culture and communication at new york university his writing on film television propaganda advertising and the culture industries have appeared in numerous journals and newspapers  two thousand and five professor miller authored fooled again the real case for electoral reform he is also the author of the bush dyslexic con observations on a national disorder and cruel and unusual bush cheney's new world order i want to thank you for your participation in today's hearing again you will know that we have a lighting system when your time begins you will see a green light after four minutes of testimony the light will turn yellow to warn you that you have one minute remaining when your time has expired you will see a red light if you are mid sentence we will allow you to finish your final thought before moving on to the next witness after each witness has presented his testimony subcommittee members will be permitted to ask questions subject to the five minute limit and with that i would invite mr raymond to begin his testimony that afternoon chairman conyers chairman sanchez chairman scott ranking member cannon and members of the committee your invitation to speak today was welcome that gave me an opportunity for my goal of bringing transparency to the events now known as the new hampshire phone jamming of democratic election day phone lines at the direction of the republican national committee the new hampshire republican state committee and made possible both by my own as the republican consultant who arranged for the telemarketing services that conducted the jamming the phone lines such an opportunity is welcome because it allows for the public service of illuminating the worst practices by bad actors within our electoral process so that awareness may dampen similar temps in the future to taint our electoral process justice brandeis wrote that sunlight is the best disinfectant electric light the best policeman this was the spirit in which i wrote how to rig an election confessions of a republican operative the book i encourage you all to read if you haven't already but i hope the book and my appearance before you today to be what i hope to be is a public service my desires to shed a ray of sunlight on a process that requires periodic disinfection and perhaps a vote from this distinguished committee the electric light that will better patrol our election process and more importantly the trade people within it put it all management is a big business boasting master degrees from top tier universities and flaunting riches to even eager for success already this election cycle there's been spent in federal elections alone nine hundred million dollars and that is before the big show in the fall when a new president i'd states is going to be elected this is not to suggest that money is the source of why many americans are disenchanted with the political campaign process money and politics is like water it will always find a way as long as money is equated with free speech the money will flow to campaign coffers the source of the reason why americans instinctively know that the system does not work is the framers intended is that politics has become a big business a cost per vote business the stakes are great both money and power and the temptation can be irresistible for many in the business of running campaigns to try and win at all costs and i know this firsthand as you may know and as you've said here today i pleaded guilty to the charge of phone rassmann in the new hampshire phone jamming case it was incarcerated for three months at a federal correctional institution when confronted with my crime by our government prior despite  confidence that the law had not been trans grassed i did not hesitate to take responsibility for my actions unfortunately i am the exception not the rule by being the only actor in this conspiracy to take responsibility for their conduct without indecision or hesitation this is not to say new laws that address the symptoms of the problem should be crafted to prevent future abuses rather i encourage this committee to seek a new vantage point and confront the origin of the problem politics is populated by political professionals who w not working on capitol hill are working for either a major political party committee a political consulting company a lobbying firm or in government relations for either corporation or trade association association or for some other instrument like politically oriented nonprofit committees or for all concurrently there and is the solution you should consider just as lobbyists are required to disclose their activities to comply with the lobbying disclosure act of one thousand nine hundred five in its amendment in two thousand and seven so should it be considered that political consultants be required to conduct themselves under the same transparency transparency seems to sunlight that is best for real reform the protest such a bill would provoke as validation of the idea in fairness to my former colleagues in the republican party and in the spirit to treat them better than they treated me i cannot link the new hampshire phone jamming scheme in any way to president george bush's white house however having worked with the republican national committee in two capacities as a regional political director similar to mr suppose ition during the two thousand and two election cycle and as chief of staff to republican national committee cochairman and at the national republican senatorial committee i have the ability to speak to the processes in place while i was employed there but not thereafter not in the context of a republican administration in the white house neither of the national republican can't campaign committees mentioned above is managed by roads nor do they employ them knowing firsthand how both committees operate was a key factor to acceptin the job of placing the phone jamming program with a telemarketing vendor following mr to once inquiry on the matter my training at both the r and c in the n r s c taught me two main operating procedures the first being that as an agent of either committee one never instructed another committee preferences unless that committee was financing a program and the other being that unusual programs never saw the light of day without a thorough vetting by committee attorneys when approached by mr tobin about being hired to conduct the unusual program of jamming democratic phone democratic party phone lines i made the calculated sumption that both criterion had been met therefore knowing mr toobin knew of the program it would seem to follow that there would be interest during the course of the investigation into this matter as to whether mr tobin superiors were also aware of the program unless mr tobin had safely concealed his rogue status drawing nearer nearly a decade of employment at the r and c how or however i must also be fair and stressed not being privy to every detail of this investigation and therefore the questions raised may well have been satisfied i am before you today by invitation and welcome your questions thanks very much thank you a appreciate your testimony mr raymond at this time i would invite mr to me to give his remarks bases it needs rules and procedures and needs something system set up so the people have an equal in the fair access to elections that all people and all ideas operate on a level playing field that by itself is not  enough we have those things in our constitution our state constitutions and our federal constitutions those types of rules and procedures also existed under under desks botts in dictatorships in the soviet union you need a second element you need a mechanism to end force the rules to deter those who would cheat and to make sure that the level playing field stays level for almost two centuries the department of justice has admirably perform that function well the civil rights division the public integrity division the criminal division have all operated to stand up to those who sought to abuse power and those has sought to cheat to gain power this is a critical function because when the people into markets the fail to believe that the elections of fair they opt out of the system we have a situation which almost half the people in our country don't engage in their wonderful right to vote in elections anything that diminishes the confidence of the people in the fairness of elections is a serious matter it's a serious matter the day it happens the day after it happens six years after it happens the tragedy of the in who hampshire phone jamming is not that the citizens rights to freely associate and to communicate each with each other were violated this is a terrible thing in it's quite frankly the kind of thing that has happened other times in the past the real tragedy is that when the citizens whose rights to free association were violated turn to the department of justice for justice they didn't get justice now i'm going to talk to you and i'm going to have to be of use about half my time going to be very quick  there are a number of ways in which the department of justice justice did not provide justice one of which is the ways ranking member can and said that he said two things that were somehow difficult for me to square one he said that we should be holding hearings and hearings in the middle of trials and i agree with that in general you shouldn't be because you should respect the right of people to have trials without interference by legislative bodies well that's been said to the people of the state of new hampshire for the last since since two thousand and two ever been trials going on since two thousand and two department of justice has slow walked this case and stretched it out so that there has never been a time where we could get the answers in the full way is that what went on at the same time congressman can instead it's old news well it's old news because we haven't gotten the answers we've been asking for the answers in two thousand and four well first of all we reported this to the police immediately it took a manchester police officer exactly one day to essentially solve the case as of the people on the that actually effectuated it he then it was then turned over to the department of justice it took the department of justice eighteen months to bring an indictment it took them nine months to interview a single person there's no reason whatsoever that we understand now why that happened in again during this entire period my clients were continually asking the u s attorney's office in the department of justice what was going on after in december of two thousand and three all of the essential information was generated all of the people had been spoken to a minute spoken to the f b i told them the full story mr mcgee who was the executive director of new hampshire republican party had told them the full story they had everything they needed to bring in in december of two thousand and three they slow walk the case through they didn't bring any indictments again till the july believe it was july twenty eighth of two thousand and four at that time they did not indict mr tobin who was a regional director of the r n c and republican senat orial committee there have been published reports which i believe to be true that the prosecutor in this case tied him and wanted to indict mr tobin earlier that he was forbidden to do so until after the presidential election that is political interference with the administration of justice and that is something that that this committee should take seriously the department of justice that there are numerous ways in which they interfered with justice a second way is that we the democratic after the indictments the charges were first brought brought a civil case as we were about to start our discovery on the very first day of discovery the department of justice which had known about the civil case for a period of time intervened at the last moment and brought about a halt in discovery that set us back for two years in which we were in the eighteen months in which we were unable to ask any questions of anybody again there have been published reports by the mcclatchy newspapers that individuals  in the department of justice have stated that that interference was not done at the request of the prosecutor but that he was ordered to interfere with the civil case and just slow walk to indict the new hampshire republican party and perhaps the republican national committee but it was the republican state party the prosecutor wanted to indictment because the indict them because they obstructed justice they withheld information they refused to turn over their internal investigation again higher ups at the department of justice interfered i could probably go on for about two hours and i'm talking as fast as i can and i'm out of time we thank you for your testimony hopefully we'll be able to listen some more information  questions at this time i would invite mr miller to please give his testimony thank you chairman sanchez chairman scott chairman conyers ranking member cannon very grateful to have been asked to speak here i want to start testing that i'm not a democrat or republican but an independent dedicated to the promise of american democracy is an vision by tom paine i believe with him that the right to vote is the basis on which all other rights depend the issue here is ultimately not the victory or defeat of either party but the people's right to choose their government and thereby live and rule in freedom such was once the view of the us justice department whose voting rights sections strongly championed the individual right to vote by prosecuting all forms of illegal vote suppression since two thousand and one however the department has turned a blind eye toward such crime take the case of spr associates an arizona firm hired by the republican national committee to run stealth voter registration drives throughout the nation prior to the two thousand and four election starting in the summer schools troops haunted public areas posing as nonpartizan opinion pollsters war petitioners for liberal causes such deception the firm worked to inflate the number of registered republicans by any means necessary closely following a script the operative asked leading questions in order to identify republicans and then asked them to fill out registration forms the teams were ordered not to register democrats or independents nevertheless many democrats filled out the forms  those forms were destroyed far more frequently however sprawls troops bamboozled democrats and independents into registering as republicans either by altering the registration forms without their knowledge or by misleading them into registering themselves such service was expensive according to their filings with the federal election commission the r n c paid sproule well over eight million dollars the party's eighth largest expenditure the two thousand and four campaign and what did they get for it aside from ripping up the registration forms of many democrats the company appears to have created thousands of unwitting for republicans in ohio florida nevada pennsylvania west virginia minnesota michigan and oregon thanks to those inflated numbers there appeared to be more registered republicans than there were in reality a misimpression that would seemingly explain the party's upset wins in those with the exit polls predicted otherwise in ohio for example countless democratic votes were stolen through the tactics documented in the full committee's seminal report on the election their voter ca registration drives broad refusal of provisional ballots organized just information and intimidation shortages of functioning machines in democratic districts only and numerous machine irregularities on doing only democratic votes those tactics were used also in those of the states where the exit polls predicted a republican defeat and where sproule had also helped inflate the number of grassroots republicans but the company not only broke the law but also may have figured in a larger plan to block the vote their oddities moreover in the party's f e c filings with nine expenditures totaling well over one million dollars incurred somehow in two thousand and five suggesting an attempt to shave down the amount spent on sproule services and so sprue and associates clearly merited a full investigation and yet the d o j did nothing if there has been a federal probe of sproles activities i've never heard of is far from coming under federal suspicion nathan sproule the firm's director was invited to the christmas party at the white house two months after the election and while the d o j has winked at practices that disenfranchise tens of thousands of americans that now wholly partisan department focuses obsessive lee on voter fraud which numbers in the tens between two thousand and two and two thousand and five twenty four people were convicted of illegal voting with one of the sixty two convicted since those low numbers reconfirmed scholarly consensus that voter fraud is actually quite rare it is in fact a highly service myth that helps to justify the actual vote suppression and election fraud that sproule and others carry out to benefit their party today the fantasy of voter fraud preoccupies the managers of justice and the supreme court it is therefore up to congress to return us to reality and redirect this nation toward democracy i thank you all and i will take your questions thank you professor miller we will now begin our round of questioning and i will begin by recognizing myself for five minutes of questions my first question is for mr to me do you think that it's appropriate for the bush administration to refuse to explain key questions in the jamming scheme such as who knew about the scheme at the white house and when they were aware of that in one word no we sought to get information from the white house about all the calls of the white house in there can be innocent explanations for those causes this was those calls this was during the election but if we could see a pattern of who told when called still being the bush cheney guy who made the calls and what those people next did we could have determined whether or not those were innocent calls or whether those were calls us that were part of the conspiracy we sought those the white house refused to provide them my understanding is that this committee has been able to get any information that's correct my second question is also for you do obvious connections mr gonzales was in the white house when this occurred he was white house counsel there's a question about the white house political office having been part of it that's an obvious mr ashcroft was a member prior to his becoming attorney general  republican senatorial committee that's where mr tobin worked one of the places he worked as a republican national committee those are obvious conflicts they should have taken themselves out of this out of the the chain of command making these decisions i do not believe the trial level attorneys themselves had a conflict but the problem was they couldn't make the decisions on the case we were told several times that the reasons things took so long and the reasons that certain things didn't happen such is dating mr tobin in a timely basis was because of orders from above thank you mr raman you indicate in your book how to rig an election that your case went all the way to the top of the department of justice and was on john ashcroft desk do you think it was an unusual circumstance that the attorney general was personally looking into your case and do you think the attorney general made selective decisions on which individuals to go after and that you were particularly targeted i can't speak for the attorney general is your microphone  sorry that's much better i can't speak to the motives of the the attorney general ashcroft never worked in the department of justice i can say that a number of aides to mr ashcroft have political backgrounds that's how i met some of them one of formally been a political director of the republican national committee and in fact i think it been mr tobin superior at the time so i certainly think that those calculations could have come into effect i can't speak to whether or not they did in fact do you think it was wrong for mr tobin to continue to serve as a bush campaign official when the department of justice had evidence that he was a clear participant in the well my understanding is once he was indicted it was made public he resigned so it's a question of who knew when to point a silly term but i think that if his peers had no idea was going on i think was fine and if they did then that's another matter entirely thank you professor miller have you heard of any other instances with any other voter registration form where people were trained to register only bird voters of a certain party i have not so to your knowledge i was you know the circumstances that's unique it's worth noting also that sprawls people often represented themselves as being with a group called america votes which is a well established and respected nonpartizan voter registration operation and the people from america votes of actually complained about this because this was clearly a partisan effort and i to answer your question i can't think of any other examples of that happening on either side ok can you describe in detail some of the other voter suppression strategies that might have been employed in the two thousand and four or the two thousand and six election that's a very big question there are a number of books on the subject and i would respectfully suggest that this should be you know a matter for of a full investigation on its own there has been a great deal of such activity and let me answer the ranking members one of his earlier questions in this regard i don't believe that this kind of investigation should be restricted to what republicans do i think i do indeed believe that democratic about suppression and election fraud should be prosecuted as well i'm kind of a purist on this matter and what's good for the goose is good for the gander i also would agree that this there has been election fraud in our history sadly forever it goes way back but i having studied this and written extensively about it i must conclude and i'm not the we want to draw this conclusion that what has happened over the last seven years is unprecedented in our history both for its scale and for its technological sophistication the use of electronic voting machines of any kind seems to me quite perverse because what you have there is in essence a secret vote counts to have electronic machines on which you either vote or which count your vote is to is to use a technology that's tantamount to having somebody take the ballots home pull the blinds and then come out in the morning and say here's the number take it or leave it moreover the companies that make the machines are private companies and are therefore unaccountable so this represents something new  moment even as we speak there are things happening such as the veterans administration now refusing to help wounded veterans register to vote which was a policy they had briefly promised to change and now we hear that they're not going to do it after all i think that if we believe in universal suffrage and we believe in the right to vote we should do everything we can to make that possible voter fraud is a problem a very very minor problem but it seems to me that we could much more easily solve it by for example putting video surveillance in polling places than in passing laws that disenfranchise tens of thousands of people that's like treating a minor headache by getting out of me so again i appreciate your question and want to repeat that this matter is far too important i think to be left to either party and one year what do you think that we could do now to prevent situations like the new hampshire phone jamming or sprawls destruction of voter registration cards or any other attempts to suppress the vote perspectively looking ahead what would be some know i suspect the fact that three guys two guys going to jail a third might go to jail actually works its wonders in dissuading people from illegal activity and i would tend to agree to some extent but no doubt there are further steps i'm sure that could probably be rid of paperless voting machines and replace them with optical scanners or to get rid of both type types of machinery and go back to hand counting paper ballots those movements have failed a lot of reformist movements have failed  for very complicated reasons i think that the best thing that people can do now is to plan to monitor the election process aggressively and to make sure whichever party they belong to make sure that they are registered because a lot of people are now turning up at the polls to find their names have been expunged this is something that is often a result of voter caging often a result of the improper use of felons lists but is also sometimes kind of some reaction that relates to the fact that now we have electronic voter rolls and then this is a terrible idea so basically what i'm  people have to become informed about the issue know what their rights are make sure they're registered monitor the process make a tremendous racket if they see these and so on and understand that it doesn't matter which party wins it really doesn't if people are prevented from voting in an election even if their chosen party wins a terrible wrong has been done here and there are people  the republican side who agree with me very strongly about this i agree that it's not a partisan issue i think with respect to an individual's rights just very quickly mr to me any suggestions prospectively looking ahead that might help prevent similar types of incidents i don't think there's anything that you can do any general sense that will stop everybody from trying to gain an unfair advantage in elections but i can tell you one thing that if you cut off elections you call to cut off investigations and you don't engage in oversight of the department of justice people will be encouraged to do it on a large scale basis thank you my time has expired mr cannon is recognized for five minutes a question i think about i'm chairman  registering voters including at least ninety people who are here illegally i have heard about it you know i haven't looked into it and i thought she was referring to you know nationwide registration drives are you familiar with corn corn yes i am quite familiar with acorn acorn has been sued repeatedly by lawyers for the republican party and it is always prevailed i think that acorn infield out well they don't represent themselves as being something they're not they don't throw away registration forms from the other side they don't alter registration forms i think those are significant differences granted there  although i suppose in this business we often have people who are running for public office that represent themselves as something they actually are not and i can't believe that opinions that were so clear about the department of justice we have colleagues here of both parties who are under investigation and all of them are really desperately wondering why it takes the justice department so long to do anything much  f it seems to me that much of your concern goes to what you've called the delay in the justice department is there some reason is are you frustrated because of the case in new hampshire or do you have broader experience  see the justice move work quickly that's not a trick question by ok i've been a criminal defense lawyer for thirty years the election law stuff i do is all pro bono it's a sideline role prosecutions defense lateral and say prosecutions this case the case against open to the level it went is a simple case as i said it took a manchester police officer an hour to basically bring into the investigation to a conclusion to that level i've never seen a case take so long to come to trial i mean that was solved in the investigative sense so quickly and they just astonishing to me my sense is the this is not a political issue but rather a organizational issue if i could just as if i could just say i guess so if we didn't have reports that the prosecutor said that he was ordered to slow it down if he did if he didn't tell people that that the delays were due to interference by people bob i'm if there were reports that he was told not to indict mr told until after the presidential election i might indulge in i guess the same kind is that you indulge but we have a lot of evidence to indicate that we're the little people that how are you aware that we can go back and take a look i'm aware of it from several sources one two attorneys involved in the case one mr raymond attorney and one in attorney for the democratic party as a civil attorney told me that the prosecutor in the case said that to them i'm also aware from the reports in the mcclatchy case where in the mcclatchy newspapers where they indicate that a senior justice department official said the same thing i wasn't there let me give his name in the first say that i believe that all the trial level prosecutors there was a change in the middle all of the people by its integrity the name of the initial prosecutor those referring to then was taught him in the  three convictions one acquittal and were people involved who were not roped into the process everyone that i dealt with was charged  charged in this case who hired you i was hired by the new hampshire republican state committee at the direction of the aging of the republican national committee in new in new england did they know what you were going to do yes they instructed me to do exactly what i did and the people in the committee hired you yes the new hampshire republican state committee hired me they were my client members here we just have a few minutes i defer to the chairman of this point if he has questions mr thank you very much i many minutes do we have less we have six minutes and thirty seconds remaining in this vote if you'd like we can come back and finish any unanswered questions i would prefer to come back and i'm chairman these are very important witnesses and this is a very important that i absolutely understand mr scott is there anything further be creaming my time  n how many people at the republican committee knew what you were going to do well to my knowledge only mr toben had to my direct knowledge only mr tell them i can only speak to mr tobin's involve people who were involved in the committee think who you are going to do when you were hired are we talking about the new hampshire republican state committee or are we talking about the republican national committee sir both well the new hampshire republican state committee their executive director instructed me to do the phone jamming as the r n c again i cannot speak to anything beyond mr tobin he's the only one at the r and c with whom i discussed this process you discuss the program and those are the two other people have got who are convicted yes or no is do you have any information to know that others in the committee knew what phone jamming was about i have no direct knowledge of that now or all those hired to do the same thing were other vendors hired to do the same thing  what you were hired to do is anyway that people in the republican national committee know that you had been hired and didn't have a clue as to what you were up to the best way to and mr chairman madam chairman with the gentleman you you just move him mr raman we're very pleased and proud that you're here we also know that you are still on probation if i were you i would answer these questions with great care in terms of their accuracy yes sir i understand what all i can tell you sir is that the only person at the republican national committee with whom i have direct knowledge knowing of this program was mr talcott i brought to that calculation to take on the assignment using my experience having worked at the republican national committee both as a regional political director and as a chief of staff to the republican national the co chair however i do not have any knowledge directly of anyone else after republican national committee other than mr tell me who had a knowledge of this program gentlemen you have used to me are you telling us sir that you have never met another person in the republican party doing the same kind of work that you were hired to do the phone jamming was a very unusual request and i know all about the phone jamming because you wrote a book about it right now are you telling us here before the subcommittee on two subcommittees are you telling us that you have never specifically if i could ask the chairman to to to clarify that question do you mean other forms of voter suppression or do you specifically mean phone jamming i think what does that help clarify yes i mean are we speaking specifically about function yes specifically about phone jamming are you suggesting to sir that you were the only person in the employ of the republican party and divisions there that were doing phone jamming that you had ever heard of this is the only time that i've ever encountered phone jamming yes sir and you don't know anyone else has ever done this before you as i sit here today does not come to mind what ok sounded to me at all right i might heard of that it was very unusual do you think that this is the first as far as you know this is the first time ever engaged in phone jamming certainly the first and only time i heard yes or i didn't ask you that question could you repeat the questions are all right in other words you're suggesting to or you're telling us here today that you had never heard of anybody that had ever done phone jamming in the republican party before you yes this is the first time any such a program such as this had ever been presented to me that's not the question that i ask you ok you know i would  you know i i admire you coming here i'm proud of of the book that you've written but we're not here i want to remind you sir please do your best with these questions and i know that if there can be using or if i'm not being clear as i should you may want to think the questions i've already asked you and some more i'm going to ask you over very clearly while we're in recess but i'm going to i think this is a nice natural breaking point we have very little time remaining in  if we could please ask the witnesses to come forward and said i realize we are short one witness right now but the committee is going to come to order and we're going to continue with some questions and hopefully we'll be joined by professor miller shortly i believe prior to the vote it was mr scott's time for questioning and so i will go ahead and recognize  scott had you all the time to mr conyers i'm going to give the time back to mr scott and to do with what he well and we will recognize mr conyers for questions so i have this right you will there a general strategy that you would use tricks schemes to try to trick people out of voting in my book i detail dirty tricks absolutely yes sir i can if you want i can give you some details on that yes please you know there's there's a many ways to use data there's many ways to deliver a message a message can be delivered to try and alienate people one there's many ways to use existing infrastructure to anticipate political attacks to divert political attacks one example i would give you is using the federal election commission in an example i talk about in the book having  being managing a campaign with a candidate that had taken a contribution from a questionable source knowing that question will source could become a problem in the campaign we directed that donor that source to give a little bit of money to our opponent so when that attack came we could dilute the attack and move on well what about what about tricking people out of showing up on time to vote again to get out the vote efforts yes or i personally have never myself done and i think what i think i hear you saying these things you read about in the media about you know the election now being held on wednesday that's not something i ever did it's not something i never witnessed personally being done so i can't speak to that i have however in running campaigns have seen instances where flyers show up on election day generally targeted at lower income voters one comes to mind  in new jersey when i was running a can campaign a long time ago in the eleventh district where flyers showed up on the street saying on election day look out for the jump out boys and back then what that meant was undercover police officers these are clearly meant to intimidate people from voting legendary is the one nine hundred eighty one case in new jersey the ballot security task force which i'm sure the committees will fully aware of that actually resulted in an injunction against the republican party and new jersey being the place right entered politics right so to say cut my teeth so these are all things that you as you run campaigns you become made aware you for the book that you've written because i think it's important for the american people to know some of the things even though they may be unsavory that they on and you had the courage to come forward about it and to come forward to this committee so i thank you very much thank you so you finish grad school and join the g o p for one reason because rumor had it that there was big money to be made on the republican side of the aisle yes sir and from the earliest days of the so called republican revolution through in culmination in the second bush white house you played a key role in helping g o p candidates twist the truth beyond recognition yes sir during a decade of crucial and bitterly fought campaigns your career took you from the nasty nastiest of local elections in new jersey through runs for congress and the senate and right up to the top management position in a bid for the presidency itself yes sir and so this book that you wrote i think is an astonishing and frank look at some of the campaigning that goes on why i want you to consider my questions of you not hostile or trying to embarrass you in any way because the vote of the american people is the cornerstone of democracy and it isn't like we gathered here today to pretend that  everything is all been nice up until this ministration the history of voting in america is full of things that have gone on everybody's heard about it but we've never met anybody like you with the courage enough to come forward and write it to put it into american history you know writing hearsay or what something you found out about going on in the library you were in it and you're here to help this committee the voters of this country hold that's what we stand for you've heard me say here that the most important thing that this committee can do between now and november fourth is make sure we have the fairest elections that are humanly possible and we've heard from attorney to me and professor miller and yourself that there are some big challenges ahead this is not an easy job and so i just wanted to thank you for everything that you done and the way that you helped us not didn't a berm off write checks for the work that you were doing well there were certainly reports in the media oh wait a minute stop i don't care about any reports in the media i got all the reports in the media will ever need didn't you get checks from a b a for the work that you were doing in the just so i can clarify sir in the new hampshire republican phone jamming the phone jamming incident no  i was paid by the new hampshire victory committee new hampshire republican state committee victory committee for the the funds that i received a letter but you're answering the question that you corrected to that you wanted to answer i didn't say the new hampshire vote phone jamming you said it i'm talking about in anything and everything else now look we've had a nice conversation so far have you ever talked to karl rove in one instance yes or i met karl rove wait a minute have you ever talked to karl rove yes or no be careful about this  rather large investigatory stance here of lawyers haven't you talked with him more than one time i have only met mr rove wants i didn't ask you that haven't you talked with him more than one time i've only spoken with mr rove on one occasion that i recall sir all right could it have possibly been two occasions i only have one recollection of meeting mr rove ok did you ever talk with mr scanlon yes sir was the relationship of certain persons in the white house to the operation that you were doing if by the operation you mean that the phone jamming i have no knowledge of any involvement by the white house and he direct knowledge by the white house in this program what i can speak two is when i worked at the republican national committee i understood the process he's in place for people like mr tobin who had formally held that similar position in the mid atlantic region of the country on how programs come to light so and stop me if i'm going to be more information that you care for but you haven't given me enough information yet mr raman please continue yes or so the my understanding when i was working at the r n c was twofold and one as i said in my remarks that a regional political director for the republican national committee did not instruct another committee or campaign for that matter to whom to hire unless the r n c was directing the phone the second criteria would be that a program as unusual as the phone jamming which was the first time i'd ever heard of such a thing and in fact when it was presented to me it took some time for me to figure out how to actually one do it and two i in fact as i say in my book saw it as so unusual that i actually consulted counsel however you talked with the a lawyer yes sir it's appropriate in this it's appropriateness it's legality yes sir  so the other thing that i had learned working at the republican national committee was that a program as unusual as this was did not see the light of day in the last vetted by r n c attorneys  and so that was the operating procedure i knew having had the same job at the republican national committee as mr tobin did when he called me in two thousand and two about the phone jamming program it is that's the knowledge i brought to that call that call that was the knowledge that those were the variables that i assessed in accepting the assignment among others and frankly in the end had a great deal to do with why i proceeded with the assign this may take more than one minute madam chair counsel you heard the witness to your left talk about a variety of issues that i have raised with him would you help me understand some light some of the subjects in our discussion certainly congressman do or do you want me to there were three things i heard that i think i can give you some information on you asked him about who knew what the republican state committee in new hampshire as far as we can tell everybody knew the chair the vice chair the executive director the finance director and probably five to seven other people there's only been one person that worked there that we've been able to identify who denies knowing about the phone jamming mr mcgee testified he discussed that with all of them t finance director who took part in some of the pain the payments that it was openly discussed on the regards the abu off question about sometime shortly before the payments were made to mr raymond and he wouldn't necessarily know there's two strange checks came into the new hampshire republican state committee one from the mississippi cha another from the tribe of california  let me focus they added up together to almost exactly the same amount as was paid to mr raymond which is one thing that that's what brought it to my attention in the first case we subsequently found out that the choctaw money which was ten thousand dollars came in a single check was handle livered senior staffer one of the new senators to the republican state committee that the republican state committee knew that it was an illegal donation the maximum for an entity like the donation was five thousand dollars that they spent a considerable amount of time trying to decide how to handle this thing and then pretended like it had been two separate donations put one in their federal pac and one in their state pac in it so it appeared and we thought for a couple of years that it actually would have been a five thousand dollars donation that they transferred because they made a transfer the same day so it's very hard on to finally got discovery we never realized that it was a ten thousand dollars single donation so th e nation is i'm sure the committee is aware it was probably the greatest source of funds for mister no indian tribe had ever donated any money to any state committee in new hampshire prior to this date in actually the next coming out of that program i made a decision on where to go and whom to work for and the decision i made was to go to new jersey and work for republicans because that's where the most opportunity was so actually i come from a long family of of democrats my mother was mortified but in fact it was a it was a to me it was a business decision having just finished a masters degree where did you get your masters the graduate school of political having been a professional being thrown out of the bus was not actually unexpected was it well i think that it was a bit of a surprise to me not so much being thrown on the bus i expected that when the scandal broke it was the treatment thereafter it was the three million dollars spent on mr tobin's behalf by the republican national committee that convinced me that the republican party was not a place wish me to be around miller not returning we have not been able to locate professor miller and i don't know where he is i try and get him some questions for the record and we will have an opportunity to submit written questions to the witnesses his stuff is still here i imagine don't i can't say i know a whole lot about it but i have read newspaper reports and magazine articles i think i read one on the train down here as a matter of fact you were the workers of acorn pretty guilty at the federal election fraud obama associated with them has been associated with a lawyer those things the very first thing you said learned on the train down here i don't know if i learned it i read an article that something it said something about eight people i think it also indicated that those people were disavowed by acorn but i really don't know and very much about acorn i know nothing whatsoever about any connection with any of the presidential candidates in the middle of things that i can't even remember but i didn't know it and i don't know it to be true i really have very little that correct the republican national committee are in c i'm not sure understand question i was invited here i'm no longer affiliated with any political party or political committee no but when you when you were doing the things that you were doing to subvert the electoral process and see who was in control of your activities yes i when i were in actual committee  wasn't that are in c in touch with the white house as far as you knew about the things you were doing i would have to answer that question by telling you sir that i never worked at the in national committee when there was a republican administration in the white house however understanding processes it would stand to reason and i accept and accept at the time that the political operation within the white house would directly  control the republican national committee as the chairman's appointed by the president and in fact the political director had to become the chairman of the republican national committee so yes although i did not have a direct knowledge i think it's just me and yes they wo toben was getting instructions or was was clearing his activities with somebody yes kerry certain i mean he wasn't  ranger out there it was it was coordinated as i he wouldn't he wouldn't be able to do this these kinds of things that you were doing without somebody over him being in control my experience with republican national committee is it does not employ rogues nor is it run by rogues and mr tobin certainly worked there for nearly a decade and would have to have you know i don't i don't know who the rogue and the people that haven't been prosecuted yet or who the criminals are i don't want to characterize anybody it's it's there was a chain of command and this committee will probably have to continue this inquiry the gentleman yield for one moment of course mr raymond i think is just right now based on his understanding of the politics of the r and c in the white house although it didn't work at the i r s you in the when the white house was controlled by republicans but to be aware of that you're also probably aware of the fact that when democrats have been in control the white house the democratic national committee has also been run by the white house is that not fair to say yes or i think that speaks for itself and so that some of the should and as it happened under the clinton administration i mean the gentleman ha that there may have been some direction from upper echelon party operatives directing this type of activity to happen with that is to try to prove i would like to conclude the hearing today there will be an opportunity a limited edition all questions i want to thank the witnesses for their cooperation in being here to testify will realize it's been trying with the votes in between i only regret that the d o j did not  send a witness so that we could have asked specific questions as to what happened within the d o j without objection members will have five legislative days to submit any additional written questions which we are going to forward to the witnesses and ask that you answer as promptly as you can so that they can be made a part of the record and without objection the record will remain open for five legislative days for the submission of any additional materials again i want to thank everybody for their time and patience i wish we could have been more focused in the questioning and then the comments to the subject matter of today's hearing but again i think the witnesses for their enjoyment in their their indulgence and at this time the joint hearing of their subcommittee on commercial administr law and the subcommittee on crime terrorism and homeland security is a