but but taking your interpretation would it make any difference if a paragraph six of the right here by enjoined from soliciting any any business  agree we can accept business only look at solicitation the answer is no we should still be able to solicit the only bar should be using their trade secrets and we know exactly what the district court hel so the court's exam works well with all the court duke or did find compilations that your clients took which contain the identities of county clients to be trade secrets i understand your objection to the order which is you can't accept any business could the court have said a you may not solicit business from anyone using the trade secrets let's call them that you'd be to the  extent you do business with anyone identified in his trade secret we want you to affirmatively demonstrate that you did not use the trade secrets to contact them yes ron and i'll be perfectly fine any injunction use them here's what it here's here's what troubles me about this case i'm trying to give the district court's perspective you've got a fast developing preliminary injunction hearing the court has got some concerns about your client's responses to discovery it's not sure it's being told the whole story is so it says wait pendent a light of day until we get to a trial don't deal with anybody on the who's identified in the trade secrets that order if it were permanent injunction it seems to me would play a plainly be too broad because you can accept business from people who comes here so i'm trying to figure out if the court perhaps may have been overbroad but should have said something like look i'm going to if you want to do business with anybody who's identified to trade secrets you're going to have to demonstrate you didn't use the trade secrets to get them not that i've just enjoyed you from using but i'm going to require some sort of affirmative showing from you that you came across them in some in some different innocent way yes and i think that's right i do you are certainly willing to do that and we've outlined in our papers several different ways doctors there's a whole area where we can just go online find them and do business with them whether resell lists of them or accept their business and the injunction is prohibited back completely  o let me let me make sure i understand your position because i think the most destructive you know injunction tying your hands is essentially the way you're reading this injunction which is your barred from conducting business with anybody that's in the bundle of trade secret materials right so that's the most respect and then there's the possible probs suggest that i judge her which would just say ok well you can solicit and do business with  folks but you've got to show an independent source essentially that's separate and apart from the trade secret and then there's kind of the middle of which is well you've gotten a lot of trade secret material so during the  awaiting trial or dispositive motion work you're going to be prohibited from soliciting business as long as the information is contained within the bundle of trade secret materials so you you said judge her with his approach no problem with that what about that middle approach of joining you from soliciting folks who may be may also be on the list because it's hard at this age of the litigation to figure out ok well if you help to what extent did you review the less you learn melissa already so begin to have a source issue may not be adequate to satisfy the district court concern if that's the case with that also be acceptable no unfortunately no you're on and that's because the available jobs in this industry all involve reaching out various players in that system and trying to do business with them like for example so that's one of the ways why would my client working out of them pled a rd party employer why would that somehow using their list to do business with their client why would that be restricted they can't work it be fired  they can't get a job and that's the problem that middle approach solicitation should be barred only where the clients themselves are trained and here there's no argument on either side district or end it's undisputed that takes us out of the entire industry that we have not been able to work for six months and that we can't do anything because exam works unfortunately does business with basically everybody i for over six months now and it and it's impossible to live under those circumstances and less the panel has more questions like to reserve my remaining five minutes ask have you made any efforts to go back to this record and rein some of these point but can the district court prohibit these folks is bad actors as they may be from doing any business with anybody who ever did business with you so what the defendants are enjoying fr is something that prohibits them from doing business with people if they are not using the trade secrets in any way to they were causing delays they were shifting positions there were the words of each fifty five of the e r where the district or during the hearing out the defendants have not been were i mean that they have been a lot of buying their position has more what they have right but if they can but if they can demonstrate to the district court satisfaction at the information on the claim of a given claim that they obtain from publicly available sources what would be wrong with that at that stage during the meet me ask a question raised at the beginning in a slightly different way you do agree that it would be improper for a just record to prevent them from doing business with someone whom they didn't injunction a permanent injunction from now and forever a better example of zones these customers and you may not do business with but i would point the court the decision by the where in that and again i wear that were entered a permanent whether they can be enjoins going online and finding the name of the doctor again and reaching out to them and doing business with them so long as they're not using traits rooms again i would go back to the  course of course your friend didn't know the answer to this precisely what is the trial scheduled i'm not sure of that either i know and i know the president still has every ok ok your honor i just wanted to bring up a few points here urse there is no authority for the proposition that because informal employees have access to trade secret material saying here we don't have access but if we did that and we can be prevented from doing work with anybody identified on those less in fact as we sign our cooperate to t r g case which is the retirement group  ys exactly the opposite it says whenever they reject the broad they reject the notion that prohibitions on competition are permissible whenever the employer show that the employee have access to information or to be trade secrets i mean it's hard to case the reason why it was so important is because it had supervision one provision was you can't use or trade secrets another provision was you solicit at all period and the court said no you can't do that you're protecting trade secrets under i think it was problem three and problem four is goes too far this is exactly the case be out here we have an issue where they are saying you have trade secrets so therefore you can't do business with anybody and i would point out that there is significant evidence down below that we've now we raised that t as as as was pointed out the district court finding was just that sus elicitation was made using the using the spreadsheets so if you want you can change the injunction to to conduct business with anybody crew you have solicited from their spreadsheet now that would be a step closer to what we think is a process proper but at least at least modify the for the district or should have demanded evidence of who was solicited we submitted evidence from who was the employer that my clients were working for at the time and we submitted evidence that there was no solicitation during the all right thank you very much counsel for both sides of the argument today matters to