the briefing will come to order good afternoon after my opening remarks and those of my good friends mr berman the ranking member of the committee i will recognize the chairman designate and the ranking member designate of the africa global health and human rights subcommittee mr smith on our side mr payne for three minutes each we will then move to our panelists present taishan followed by questioning by the members designate of the committee on foreign affairs and i use that phrase because we're not formally organized yet for five minutes each followed by five minutes each for any other member who would like to ask questions of our panelists and i appreciate the understanding and cooperation of our colleagues and i look forward to today's discussion and before we begin i'd like to express what an honor it is to assume the responsibilities of chairman of the house committee on foreign affairs for the members who will be joining the committee upon organization please know that i do not take those responsibilities lightly during the one hundred twelfth congress this committee will be confronted with some of the most pressing national security and foreign policy challenges of our time ensuring rigorous and foresman of sanctions against iran to providing effective stewardship of american taxpayer dollars in foreign aid and state department programs to instituting systems for accountability at the unite nations i fully intend to work with all members of the committee and the american people to confront these challenges directly responsibly and effectively it is therefore fitting that the first members briefing hosted by this committee would be focused on sudan today sudan is truly at the crossroads beginning on january ninth millions of south sudanese participated in a historic referendum to determine whether africa's largest country would remain united or split in two given the countless delays manipulations and violent eruptions that have been imperiled implementation of the comprehensive peace agreement for sudan over these past six years many doubted that this day would come yet the vote proceeded peacefully and credibly after decades of repression by a genocid regime in khartoum and a war that left over two million people dead and four million people displaced the people of south sudan may at last have realized their right to self determination unfortunately the hardest work is yet to come first the results must be certified and accepted the khartoum is pledged to accept the outcome it has a long history of reneging on its commitment the stakes are high and both sides have spent the past six years preparing for war second outstanding issues relating to the implementation of the c p a must be resolved prior to the conclusion of the transition period in july twent eleven including the demarcation of the border citizenship and nationality well sharing and resource management including for oil and water division of assets and debt currency and security arrangements third the futures that as of the oil rich region must be resolved fairly and in a transparent manner as a little match in a pool of gasoline and continued failure to resolve its that is all but guarantees war likewise the popular consultations in southern kordofan quarter fon and blue nile must proceed in a manner that legitimately addresses longstanding grievances these areas are awash with weapons and tensions are high a single security incident could set the entire region ablaze finally was not trade peace and for independence in the south regrettably it appears the administration may have forgotten key lessons from the past prior u s efforts to reward the sudanese regime for signing peace agreements and as ceding to the deployment of peacekeepers while the regime simultaneously supported genocide in darfur blocked humanitarian access and stalled implementation of the c p a were broadly condemned in the words of then senator barack obama and april of two thousand and eight and i quote i am deeply concerned by reports that the bush administration is negotiating a normalization of relations with the government of sudan this reckless and cynical initiative would reward a regime in khartoum that has a record of failing to live up to its commitments and quote yet the obama administration is following the same misguided concessions driven path i do not intend to minimize what has been accomplished inside sudan delivering a timely credible referendum was an incredibly hard task but again the referendum is just the start the true test of the regime's commitment will extend far beyond the july twenty seventh date and far beyond south sudan thus i am deeply troubled by the premature efforts to advance normalization sanctions relief and debt relief the bulk of sanctions mandated by congress are linked to peace in south sudan and in dar for given recent developments in dar for the certification requirements for easing of sanctions cannot be met i am particularly concerned by suggestions that the administration may remove sedan from the state sponsors of terrorism list by july twenty seventh removal from this list is not a gold star that can be afforded to advance an unrelated political objective this is a serious matter with repetitions that directly impact our most vital national security interests recall that the previous administration d listed north korea in exchange for nominal concessions relating to one nuclear facility almost immediately upon winning this prize north korea renee go on its promise to implement a transparent verification regime withdrew from the six party talks and brazenly resumed its proliferation activities today north korea reportedly possesses one or more highly sophisticated uranium enrichment facilities and according to the united nations is supplying ran syria and burma with nuclear and ballistic missile related equipment the u s must proceed with extreme caution in our dealings with the sudanese regime the potential birth of a new nation in south sudan is truly momentous and will have significant ramifications beyond the region the united states has played a major role in bringing the parties to this point and it is in our national interest to see that the process advances advances peacefully the risks are high the challenges are daunting but the achievement of peace in a region my war is an honorable endeavor i welcome the opportunity to work with the administration and responsible partners for peace in sudan toward this and i now turn to our ranking member mr berman for his opening remarks well thank you madam chairman thank you very much for calling this timely briefing and i want to begin by congratulating you on your new position as chairman i'd also like to congratulate the new subcommittee chairs and i really do look forward to working with all of you in the one hundred twelfth congress and at the outset i'd also like to commend africa subcommittee ranking member donald payne and other members on both sides of the aisle for their leadership on sudan especially their efforts to focus the world's attention on the unspeakable atrocities committed by the khartoum regime against the people of south sudan and are for their work on these critical issues inspired two major pieces of legislation the comprehensive peace in sudan act of two thousand four and the door for peace and accountability act of two thousand and six along with a number of resolutions condemning the regime for crimes against humanity madam chairman this past week marked a historic moment for the people  who fought a twenty two years civil war to arrive at this moment of self determination while we do not know the official results of the referendum is clear the vote will almost certainly result in independence for the south and as we consider this milestone it's important that we remember the late president john go wrong mob your who led the sudan people's liberation movement and army through the long civil war a terrible conflict that resulted in the deaths of over two million south sudanese and the displacement of millions more before his tragic death and a helicopter crash in july two thousand and five gorani negotiated the comprehensive peace agreement with  that agreement provided for the referendum and other events we will examine today after his election in two thousand and eight president obama undertook a bolder view of u s policy toward to than and set out a new vision focused on intensive diplomacy this new strategy required significant changes in behavior by the khartoum government it demanded verifiable progress toward a settlement between the north and south as well as progress and are for the president's new approach was met with great skepticism by many of us in congress and the advocacy community in part because it directed it required direct engagement with a sudanese government that had committed genocide and other gross violations of human rights to carry out the new policy president obama appointed retired air force general gration as special envoy to sudan gratian the son of missionaries who was raised in congo assembled a team and developed a diplomatic strategy to realize the president's vision our first witness today ambassador princeton lyman also deserves great credit for his diplomatic efforts to complete the road map that helped deliver khartoum's vital cooperation on the course many as a right as the chairman said earlier many outstanding issues to resolve before independence is finalized in july a referendum on the status of the oil producing abi a region has yet to take place an agreement needs to be reached on the sharing of oil revenue the division of national debt the delineation of borders there is also the thorny issue of citizenship should the south boat to form a new independent state eight there are fears as southerners in the north and northerners in the south could be left stateless and vulnerable to political violence finally there is the crucial issue of peace in darfur which still eludes us today we must not forget the  place in that region of sudan in two thousand and four congress and the bush administration declared that the events in dar for constitute a genocide and in two thousand and eight the international criminal court indicted sudanese president omar hassan al bashir i'm three counts of genocide five counts of crimes against humanity and two counts of murder i'm encouraged that president obama has remained focused on four and intends to revive the stalled negotiations between the rebel groups and for the people of south sudan have taken to a major step towards self determination but there are many difficult days ahead the new nation will face a large number of challenges from building the basic institutions of statehood to economic development to the reintegration of the return ease and by all accounts there is very little capacity in south sudan to meet these daunting challenges if south sudan is to flourish then the united states the united nations and other members of the international community must continue to assist the people of that nation in their transition to independence and democratic rule in this context it is important to recognize that her clean efforts of the united nations development program to help make the referendum a reality you n d p supported voter education delivered ballots for more than four million voters on schedule and helped to establish and equip nearly three thousand registration centers and trained over eight thousand staff to manage those centers these efforts and the efforts of u n peacekeepers in south sudan under score the extent to which the un's work can support u s foreign policy interests and can tribute to international peace and security madam chairman we would not be where we are today in south sudan without hard nosed american diplomacy the active involvement of united nations and targeted u s foreign assistance programs i look forward to the testimony of our witness thank you mr berman and i would like to recognize for three minutes each the committee designate the chairman of the africa global health and human rights subcommittee mr smith  thank you very much and i want to begin by joining the ranking member mr berman congratulating you on assuming the chairmanship of this very important committee at this very difficult time around the world there are crises everywhere and we look forward to all of us on this side of the aisle and i'm sure the other side of the aisle as well in working with you in finding solutions to the many vexing problems we face so congratulations i also want to thank you for calling this extremely timely important briefing to examine th story events occurring in sudan i congratulate the southern sudanese people and join them in celebrating the completion of the referendum on the future status of their country u n monitoring panel of the referendum assessment that the process was well organized and credible is particularly commendable given the serious time and resource constraints that preceded it however the voting last week marked only the beginning of what promises to be a long process fraught with peril it will take several weeks for the votes to be transmitted from the nearly three thousand referendum centers to county and state levels and in khartoum before the official results are announced at the south has voted for secession as is widely believed then numerous complicated and potentially volatile issues remain to be resolved among the most prominent of these issues is the demarcation of the border including the division of the region with its oil reserves and fertile land the sharing of oil reserves as well as death and the question of citizenship or some of the other major challenges still to be addressed and the establishment of a permanent peace in darfur remains a critical but elusive goal as violence intensifies despite the current talks in i personally am concerned about the return of reportedly large numbers of southerners residing in the north to the south i was informed during a hearing in september that humanitarian agencies at that time were not prepared to handle mass movements in sudan unless this assessment has changed such a move is could lead to a severe humanitarian crisis and have a destabilizing security impact on the south those southerners who remain in the north against their will is another deeply troubling concern beginning in the one nine hundred eighty s arab militias armed by the khartoum regime conducted slave raids in the south taking mostly women and children to the north to serve as labor and sex slaves to two thousand and five comprehensive peace agreement failed to address this issue and an estimated thirty five thousand southerners remain in the north in the state of forced servitude this grave human rights issue must be acknowledged as a priority in the freedom of all slaves immediately secured finally i look forward to hearing the brief as to what the impact the referendum will have on the north again assuming a vote for independence the government of sudan to its credit allow the referendum proceed and has publicly stated that they will respect given it's a visible track record it is not a basis for optimism i thank you thank you mr smith i'd like to recognize for three minutes the ranking member designate the africa global health and human rights subcommittee mr paine thank you very much and let me commend you for your sense into the chair of this committee the burman and let me thank you for holding this very critical meeting on sudan being the first hearing and i think it's appropriate i mean also expressed deep appreciation to the witnesses who are certainly among the most knowledgeable people oncet an ambassador lyman did a great job in nigeria and south africa during critical time special for justice let me thank all of you for your commitment and self determination to make this day a reality today sudan is indeed at the crossroads a week long referendum has just concluded and by all accounts the outcome is clear to people has chosen independence my friends on the ground during the voting process have relayed stories of remarkable moments that illustrate the hope and excitement that lies in the heart of the south sudanese policeman after voting looked around and told people in line i crossed the river come join me a pregnant woman while on line to vote gave birth and was later able to cast a vote for the sake of her new baby as i reflect on the twenty years that i've been border which was the frontline of the struggle back then help mediate negotiations between two factions of the s p l and it was then that i first met dr john garang in the bush father of south sudan's quest for autonomy as well as a young military command a salvage care who was there at his side who is now the president of the government of south sudan palme returning from that trip i along with other members introduced a resolution in the house calling for the right of self determination for the people  sudan and it passed this body i recall over a dozen biz south sudan and the door for refugee camps in chad and with representatives and tancredo along with senator feingold senator brownback all dedicated members of this institution at that time after one such visit in two thousand and four i sponsored a resolution to call the world's attention to the atrocities in darfur which passed the for the time restraints and as mr paine said we are very privileged to have two distinguished panels before us today i know everyone is anxious to hear what they have to say they are the expert ambassador was appointed by secretary clinton in august twenty ten to lead the u s negotiation support unit prior to his appointment he was serving as an adjunct senior fellow for africa policy studies at the council on foreign relations and as an adjunct professor at georgetown he has a long distinguished career in government service including postings as deputy assistant secretary of state for africa u s ambassador to nigeria and south africa and assistant secretary of state for international organization of the ambassador has a ph d in political science from harvard university and has published numerous books and articles on foreign policy african affairs economic development good push that little button there somebody thank you very much madam and thank you and the members ranking member congressman berman all the members here for holding this hearing and september who faces a lot of crises in his neighborhood saying that the peace process is the most important in all of africa and it's an indication of how widespread the implications are of  to the people of sudan how much the united states cares not just about the politics in the strategic aspects of it but the welfare of the people who have suffered from war during this long period of time we had a good week madam chairman we had as you described and congressman berman and others have a referendum that a even a month or two ago we doubted could come out of this well  and it came of peacefully and all the observer missions whether the arab league the african union the u n the n d i or others all saying this was a credible fair affective referendum it took a lot of work a lot of diplomatic work a lot of wonderful work by the united nations and usaid assembled an extraordinary team of i p o s and the ira the carter center all working together to give the solvency stand referendum commission the technical support it needed against all the odds to be ready on january ninth of this so there was a lot involved here and a lot of people deserve credit but as you said in your opening statement this is just one step there's a lot of hard work left to go one of the issues that congressman payne emphasized this and others have as well as  i'll be a is a deeply difficult emotional issue in today's politics and its history even during the referendum we had instances of violence in that area that was finally brought under control with the help of the n and the meeting of the parties and there was an agreement signed this past week and that should permit the beginning of the migration security for it and other arrangements to contain the situation but the underlying issue of the future of obviously remains a very critical wide it's an issue that probably can only be solved at the level of the presidents of president bashir and president kiir and we hope that action will resume on those negotiations very shortly after the referendum there are other processes there are the popular consultations that are very important in blue nile and south korea bonn i'm happy to say that the  blue nile i will be visiting that area next week to witness some of those consultations and we hope south kordofan will be able to start soon after the elections in that state and as you all said there are a whole range of issues that the two parties now have to get down to work and solve by july the relationship between what looks like now two independent countries but who share so much inter interdependence as you know much of the oil is in the south much of the infrastructure for export ing at the refining it is in the north people living along that border some thirty percent of the population and they go back and forth all the time there needs to be a solution to the oil sector to citizenship issues to what both parties have called soft borders and how they operate security arrangements currency etc a lot of works been done a lot of technical work has been done but now the political work has to start on bringing these issues to a head now you've mentioned the question of our relationship to sudan and particularly to the government of northern sudan and it's a very important issue part of the discussions that have been going on for the last month is how the u s relationship with now isn't today and played into the negotiations there was a very strong feeling that until there was some sense of our own relationship with the sudan and the future of sudan there would be an obstacle there to the negotiations and cells but something equally important that i've discovered in my time there i've met with leaders of the opposition of the north side with women's groups and youth groups and what i find is that the people of northern sudan are terribly worried about the outcome of the c p a they feel that they are going to be abandoned they feel that it will lead to war they feel that it will lead to economic deprivation and they want to know what the future is for them once the south  gone and that's an important concern because instability in the north or chaos in the north is not going to be any more in our interests than to chaos in the south there also has to be political transformation in the north that's part of the dream if you will the objective of the c p a and it hasn't really happened so we want to be engaged in the north we want it to be successful and strategically stable and we wan prosperity for the people there we have put out a roadmap for normalization with the northern sudan after the c p a and i can assure you that it is based on actions it's not based on promises the first step only comes after the government accepts the results of the referendum and the step there as the president said in his letter to senator kerry which kerry senator kerry presented to the sudanese was that the president would begin the process of withdrawing sudan from the list of the sponsoring terrorism but they would have to meet all the conditions under that law and they would also have to complete the negotiations which you've all well described for the remaining balance of the c p a and there has to be progress  so before we can even complete that process and certainly before we would come to congress and discuss the possible lifting of sanctions steps would have to be taken concrete steps by the north in the meanwhile a great deal has to be done on helping southern sudan it is an area as all of you know devastated by war extraordinarily poor with almost no infrastructure to speak of you fly over southern sudan you see very little agricultural activity you see almost no roads you have very low educational base and a thin administrative structure a lot of donors are working on that problem we are the major donor we are technical assistance is passed year to the government of southern sudan is about four hundred thirty million dollars other donors are contributing just under seven hundred million dollars to developing the capacity of the south a lot of countries are involved kenya is the biggest trainer of technical personnel the u k the european union norway and others and china has  begun a development program in the south but it's going to be a long hard struggle for the south to meet the expectations of its people we've done a lot and will continue to do a lot to build up their capacity their ability for conflict resolution within the south their ability to deliver in education health and the other areas of which their people expect now i darfur is not my brief congress general gration and he apologizes for not being able to be with you today he was just indoor for this past week and he's joined now by another colleague of mine dane smith will be working on door for in the same way that i've been working on the north south but i don't want anybody to get the impression that the administration is either forgetting darfur or sacrificing darfur t a in fact there's a good deal of interaction in sudan between the two there has to be peace in both places for sudan north and south to succeed i'm not the expert on  four but i know that work is underway to try and bring peace to strengthen unum it to increase access for the humanitarian organizations and above all to get a credible peace process and i'm sure gration would be happy to brief you on all of that let me just conclude on one issue raised by congressman smith a very important one about which we were very concerned and that is the condition and the future for the southerners living in northern sudan there are quite a few as you know estimates of as many as one half million since the beginning of the c p a in two thousand and five three hundred thirty thousand people have returned to south sudan just since last august one hundred fifty thousand return and more returning all the time what we found was that the process was erratic not very well planned and the states in the southern part of sudan not prepared to receive them or get them to places where they could earn a livelihood so we've worked now and we in the un to try and regularize that process we went to the government of sudan and we said we need access all the places where the southerners live in the north we didn't have that access before we have but now we and the un and international agencies can now go visit the southern population in the north find out what they're planning u n h c r is going to begin a registration process and try and make more orderly the process of departure second we're working with the government in the south to come up with more realistic timetables and plans for absorbing that many people in what is a very poor area so i just wanted to assure you that this is an issue high on our list and we have been given assurance we'll monitor it very closely that there be no reprisals against those people but it does raise one final issue that i can mention and that's the citizenship issue because the question is what happens when the south becomes independent to southerners living in the north or northerners living in the south the government of sudan the northern government the n c p has said that they will not support dual citizenship for everyone and that's a right of the government  to say that what we and others have argued is both sides have agreed in principle that you cannot create a serious situation of statelessness for anyone therefore there has to be a period  transition during which southern sudan develops its own rules regulations and procedures for citizenship and then southerners who so wish can access that system ship if they choose these are  important issues both for the stability of the country and in terms of basic human rights and it's one of the critical issues still to be negotiated also up there madam chairman happy to answer questions thank you so very much excellent testimony and we will begin our question and answers now but i just want to remind our members pursuant to a long standing committee practice i will be recognizing you by seniority for those who are here when i  sudan and just have a few questions because we're concerned about terrorism in the world we're concerned about national security and can the administration credible credibly sort of a congress that has permanently ceased support for fellow state sponsors of terrorism including iran and syria and designated foreign terrorist organizations including hamas first and i forgot i submitted a statement for the record if that's process hasn't announced it because it's conditional even begin the process based on the acceptance of the results of the referendum but i assure you that that will be done and that the administration will then consult with congress on the results of that that i can't comment on that congressman but i can assure you that those are the kinds of issues that will be looked at in this review process are open source reports of as most of us know the east african enter governmental authority development which has several east african countries about six or seven kenya uganda cetera how  the in sudan as they move forward to the more difficult i think the roles are going to be different the african union is now charged with  overseeing the post referendum negotiations of the issues we talked about and a high level panel that the u s created to do this is headed by former south african president thabo mbeki and then with former burundian president you and former nigerian president president abu bakar and they have a sap and have have overseen the structure of the negotiations i'm happy to say that we in the un work very very closely with them we are official observers in those discussions and work very closely with them on that is on the on the negotiations now plays i think a different a more political role does it get summit some weeks ago was a very important step in confirming assurances from the government of sudan about the referendum in proceeding with the c p a they are not as active as they used to be and elsewhere in the actual negotiations and  how do you see as we know abbi a is certainly a very difficult issue to confront but also so as you know the blue nile and the southern kordofan states have also some question about where they really belong what is your take on those two states did not see the popular consultations as the same as fo accorded the right of self determination to see whether they want to be part of the north or south that is not included in the terms of reference for the popular consultations what the popular consultations are supposed to do for those two states is to determine how the c p a has affected them and how their relationships both internally in the state and with khartoum should take place they are more like if you have i can describe it good governance consultations rather than self determination consultations and what we are pleased about with blue nile is the tremendous amount of interest taking place as those consultations get underway people are coming forward civil society is coming forward and they will look very carefully at both the governance of the state and the way the central government impacts on their lives as you know elements in those states fought on the side of the s p l em but they live in the north and they're part of the north so the question really is being posed is what kind of political structure we'd be seeing in the north that accommodates their interests and the interests of everyone else in the north and  final question about egypt and the nile egypt can be very very constructive or they can be very destructive and they have change rose during this whole conflict the nile is came and urge the government to go ahead and go through with a referendum and follow the dictates of the c p a and i think the attitude of egypt is that they are going to work with the new government of southern sudan now water as the chairman has said is one of the issues to be negotiated how the water is managed the nile which cuts through both southern and northern sudan are going to be managed access to water amounts of water those negotiations have  thank you for your extraordinary service and your leadership let me ask a couple of questions first you mentioned the first step beginning the process of removing saddam from the state sponsors of terrorism list and master williamson and i were serving with him at the un human rights commission when it was a commission in geneva and he led the effort on getting the focus on genocide being committed in darfur is an outstanding job doing and he makes a point his testimony that we must make that determination purely on the merits not tilted to some other political federations based on what you said it sounds like that's the process you're going to pursue but i would just like to hear you say in your own words for further elaboration secondly churches play a key role perhaps even a central role in the provision of humanitarian and development aid and in promoting dialogue and mediating crises the faith based sector in the new republic of southern sudan if that's what emerges here receives a significant amount of money to immediately have a high impact on health care delivery and the like certainly the i c c prosecutor said that bashir may have skimmed upwards of nine billion dollars is that true what do we know about that and finally i mentioned in my opening about the thirty five thousand southerners who remain in the north and for servitude in the mid one nine hundred ninety s i held a hearing on slavery in sudan was roundly criticized when i had it and i can tell you by you if you ask around the criticize we brought out the point that i even had a woman a mother who told the harrowing story of how they broke into her home stole her son kidnapped the son gave him and then and then he became part of a slavery regime what are we doing about that of thank you very much on the first question with regard to the state sponsored terrorism first and foremost they have to meet all the conditions under that law so it has to be on the merits of that but secondarily we've also said that the final step has to be in the context of they're also meeting the conditions of the c p a so it's the first and foremost is to have to meet those criteria and then second when we would take that step would be when they've also if they if they meet all those criteria that they would also have to meet the criteria under the c p a on churches i don't know the exact plans when you say but i will say this they play an extraordinarily important role in southern sudan as you know and they have been very important and conflict resolution and i think they'll play a major role in the development side no question that's one of the elements of society what i do i'll just take a second to say something that has bothered me about the peace process it's not been terribly transparent that is it carried on and we're part of this too between two parties but civil society hasn't been brought in very much i think now as we move forward there must be much broader transparency and involvement of civil society in what comes next and that very much includes churches on the nine billion hi i'd seen the accusation i haven't seen the proof so i can say on slavery it's a that problem and other security steps but clearly that that has to go if it exists anymore but the bamber is there and i know people who've spoken to me about the bitterness they feel about it finally let me ask one final question my time are there sufficient resources available at the u n a c r as well as within our own government and other contributors to assist the southerners in the north to register that as you said they gave the incidence of  we have made it a very very strong part of our diplomacy with the north that no retaliation or violence takes place against the southerners in the north we have been back to them on this over and over and over again and so far that been respected that and they claim they will respect it but the future of those people in terms of citizenship and economics etc is still an important consideration now  r is just beginning really now that is has access to start to register people etc there is sufficient international stocks of emergency supplies to handle people when they come south lets say to get three months supply food etc the problem is how well these people can be integrated for long term development because some of them aren't farmers they have been farmers etc and this is something we have under discussion now with the  southern sudan development programs can help in that regard that to me is is becoming the most serious challenge and so far we've been able to work in the north without any retaliation against us thank you so much worry when all this money comes in to try to help i look at haiti and the lack of infrastructure sorry but you sound optimistic but i'm not as optimistic as you are and i do hope that we can continue to have so many years of war but i do hope that this leads to peace for the future or can you just tell us what we can do you caught me on a good week because a couple months ago i itself where there have been clashes in the past proxy supported by the north etc now we are working hard to build up their security capability by that i mean their ability to manage conflict to manage local issues communicate better coordinate better etc lots of people are a lot of countries along with us are training people etc president here has promised a very inclusive political process in the future for a new constitution in the south he must follow that path otherwise there will be dissension and there will be trouble i'm reasonably optimistic that they'll rise to the  challenge but i think it's going to be of a good long struggle the other danger is in the continuing tensions that will exist from time to time between the north and south one of the points we've emphasize so much to both sides in the last few months is don't support proxies that is that the north doesn't support proxies in the south and vice versa that the south doesn't support proxies in darfur or someplace else it's a very important part of keeping peace and they've got to resolve their tensions in other way i think that the hope for peace in the in the air it comes from their inevitable pendants it's in the oil sector it's the trade sector etc both sides need each other right now and both sides now are not interested in going back to war and we can build on that and they can build on that it's not going to be perfect and there are going to be crises and there are going to be threats but i guess i'm more optimistic now than i was a few months ago and the other issue back and saying well you got this referendum you keep the oil and i'll stop the water from going south actually their leverage is greater because all the pipeline stick support the oil are in the north ok so what they've had to do in the norwegians have been extremely helpful in this regard in laying out all the complexities of how two countries with shared resources can you can work out a fair compensation during the c p a they split the oil revenues fifty fifty but that was temporary now there's a question of whether the south will keep that ratio whether they'll pay a fee for the use of the pipeline to cetera those are the details they've got to work out now but they kind of need each other on the oil and the other thing which is very important again we're grateful to the norwegians for this analysis that war that oil isn't that great over the next five years it will decline substantially in output both sides have to develop an economy that is less dependent on oil and that's an important reason for them to turn their attention away from war or so and how much has been spent that we spent ten billion dollars how much have the other philanthropist of the world spent they've contributed course to peacekeeping they contribute south i don't have the figures for what they're doing and are for trying to get those for that would be your guess it would be that we would we are the biggest contributor and almost fifty percent may be what's been clearly the largest donor and i'll try and get you more accurate percentages not one fortuitous day for you to be testifying because president hu from china has just arrived and i was wondering how much the chinese have actually contributed to this effort well the chinese of course is member security council pay whatever their share is of peacekeeping costs as permanent members of the security council they also have begun a development program in the south they also contribute a fair number of peacekeepers to the un peacekeeping force we don't contribute as they do they have some engineering companies etc in the peacekeeping operation they are of course you know big investors in the oil industry and they've but you don't know what they've spent and i i think that's significant because it's my understanding that the chinese perhaps are benefiting greatly by their association with the government in the north and south there's no question that oil has been a successful investment for them but now that the oil lies largely in the you believe that the chinese played a positive role in sudan as what you would tell us today that by and large the chinese have played a positive role there over the years i think they're playing a more positive role now and they played before to be perfectly candid i think they were very resistant as you well know in the un to sanctions on sudan and so there's a history there and they about that now more recently and they do most of their diplomacy behind the scenes they don't work in concert concert with the rest of us one voice from the time they  note that we are entering a new era in government we can no longer afford to have a trillion and a half dollar deficit we figured that will destroy our country and especially if we're going to be  investing ten billion dollars in a country with thirty eight million people ten billion dollars for thirty eight million people and then see that a nother country like china is benefiting greatly ambassador and i kind of had a pretty tough meeting with them and they asked for a second meeting they had never been to dark before they had they were still selling weapons they just had no interest in those in the  the problems of sudan i had the opportunity to go to beijing and the second in command of the government of china asked a question and i asked the question the great react and do you think they will be true neutral party as this process moves forward i think the chinese will have you know i don't want to speak for them really but they have a stake in the oil sector they have a stake that those are chinese companies that own a good deal of the infrastructure as well as their share in the in the oil industry they're very concerned about that they want to make sure that whatever is worked out between the two entities on the oil protects those interests and of course they import oil from sudan so they want the stability of supply i'm pleased that they've begun development programs in the south i think that's very important i think we need to be doing or we can to help in the south how they will progress in their relationship between the two it's a little hard for me to predict obviously they will want to have relations in both countries to pursue their interests now in the south the south has the potential of a great agricultural program if they get going at one time than was the breadbasket of all of africa and with the oil are we looking at the valid being helping them develop that agricultural sector as we move forward and secondly what does cartoon have left what will their major resources be are they a dust realizing of manufacturing there was a conference in nairobi some months ago which to us it was a major participant in the ration was there and others just on agricultural development in the south it will have to be a major focus of their development efforts they have this potential but it's just not being realized at all  that has to be a major part of their economic development no question about it you quoted you but now and all the fruits and vegetables are coming from uganda you know that the potential isn't being realised in the north they too have to develop the agricultural sector they import a lot of food which they shouldn't and they are now turning more attention and investment to the food sector knowing their oil revenues are going to go down that they have extraordinary economic potential they're getting investment from arab countries in the agricultural sector and i think that's going to be one of the major areas they look to as well you know there's a lot of new technology getting water out of the desert now and that i just want to thank you ambassador i was sitting here thinking i came to congress twenty eight years ago you were a key figure in the africa at that time during some incredible times  the leader of our refugee programs during some of the most i'm sure mr smith remembers in southeast asia and in africa former soviet union and the places problems on the continent of africa and we have many who are here today as well one of the things that comes with that experience of long being engaged with these types of regimes is it gives you an important historical check on your assumptions going forward and in particular in dealing with khartoum which has broken promise after promise when dealing with somebody like shear who is in power not because he's a peacemaker he's in power because he is the most ruthless when looking at that situation and i've seen first hand the result of that ruthlessness ai in sudan and darfur sudan i remember we had a nightline camera crew we took in to interview some of the survivors of an attack and i remember a town today that had been bombed from the air that was not an attack by the  that had bombed their village and of mechanized armor which was from the khartoum government there to support the judge a week in the attack so in in looking at this the the n g o community i think is is very hesitant to reach assumptions that all is going to end well and in one particular regard there is an issue that all of us are concerned about and it has to do with that issue of the state sponsor of terrorism list because joseph coney of the lord's resistance army could not have abducted ten thousand children and abuse so many over the last twenty years and maids child soldiers out of them without the armaments he got from khartoum and without being able to send his fighters up to khartoum to be patched up without the support that he had and they didn't allow people to go into south sudan to take him out when we had the opportunity to do it so the question i have is have you made it very clear a car too that any support from for the l r a would prevent them from being taken off the terrorism list and basically  and in general i would say in dealing with the way forward is for them to understand that this is the way for them to go forward because it's worse for  them if they don't in terms of peace in terms of any thoughts of prosperity and that's logical but then we have the historical record and we have the fact that for ten years between ninety four and  commanders reached out to dan's military and door for for support now we don't know much more than that other than that that that happened but i guess my last question is would the state department certified to congress that there are no links between the government in khartoum and the l r a before taking them off the terrorism list i guess that's a little harder thank you for your service thank you so much the gentleman from florida my good friend mr rivera thank you very much man chairman bassett or in our administration enthusiasm to engage local authorities and roll out basic materials and services as a conflict mitigation strategy and have appropriate safeguards to prevent waste fraud and abuse been implemented one of the things we're working on most intensely with the government of the south which is where most of our development assistance is going is exactly that that is to get good financial controls good budget controls cetera so that we do and we don't put money through the government without those kind of assurances so we're watching that very closely this is a young government in the south and getting better controls better financial controls is one of the top priorities also doing that at the state level because resources have to be sent down to the state level so we're working with the state governments in the south to make sure they have those controls in place and we will continue to are visiting and staying in areas throughout the south to be able to get an understanding of whether there are conflicts developing in the south whether the state governments are capable of dealing with them so that proper assistance and responses can be made to kind of a it's kind of a an extended outreach for the united states to know what's happening out there to make sure that the potentials for conflict in the south which are serious are being addressed that we know what's happening that we have good information and they've been affective over these last couple months if you can drill down on that just a little bit further what types of program funds are they administering to what end are they implementing directly are they employing contractors or providing budget support to local institutions they're only providing information it's up to usa and other programs to then help with those states and help in their security flyway teams our information gathering teams a few  governance questions is the is the administration planning to certify that elected government has taken office to justify removing restrictions on u s assistance to sudan under section seven thousand eight of the state foreign operations and related programs appropriations act of two thousand and ten as carried forward assuming that they voted for the session they will not become fully independent under the c p a until july and then of course we would have to have legislation with a congress that would authorize assistance to that entity we don't have to do it right away because independence becomes official at the end of the a will the secretary of the treasury also be moving to make such a certification to provide debt relief to the regime debt relief is there are sanctions against or supporting debt relief and it depends on how the de is divided also between the north and south if some of the debt is assumed by the south and they become an independent and i would want to consult with the congress closely on this we could support the way that virtually everyone believes that it will in the vote in the south as to essentially secede could you could you and i know you've already talked about this to some degree because you discussed again what mechanisms how to handle the management of the oil sector one is to create a joint management of the sector i don't think that's going to happen but that's one option out there another is to have taken equity position in the infrastructure in the north part owner as well the economics works out that way a third option is simply for the south to pay a fee for transporting the oil through the pipeline and there are a number of variations on this all of which is what limited knowledge i have of this to our agents who have laid this out in great detail for the two parties so they will choose among these  potential ways of cooperating and then the political decision is how much does the south pay to the north is there a premium for peace to put it bluntly in what they pay and that's going to be the political side of the negotiation on the other issues there are working groups on all the other issues looking at them technically for example on currency if both countries move to a new currency how do they do it very carefully not to destabilise the other because you could do that and they've agreed in principle that they won't either but then the question is what's the timing how did they do it in the proper way so there's a working group on that and similarly on borders as a working group although again the decisions there are very political because there are five disputed puerto border areas most of the border is agreed but five areas disputed and they haven't agreed on how to solve the dispute and that's now a major issue to be resolved thank you and then another area mr ambassador when i was here for fourteen years and then gone the last two and so i've got a little behind and some of these things over the last two years but i've been to the darfur region two different trips one on the refugee camps in sudan and then the other time the refugee camps in chad and at the the gentleman i am going to be ruthless with my gavel because we want to get to the question and answer period so as you settle in let me introduce embassador williamson has served as the president's envoy the u s representative to the united nations human rights commission where he pressed for the adoption of a resolution condemning the atrocities in darfur in conjunction with the united are you are so loved and humanitarian human rights activist working with numerous organizations to stop genocide and mass atrocities was born in dar four but was forced to fle hundred eighty nine thank you gentlemen both for being here and i will gavel you down in five minutes so we can get to our question answers because we have votes on the floor in a little bit thank you ambassador williams you could start thank you very much madam chairperson and congratulations on that good to see ranking member berman again and i have to know don payne has spent more time working working on sudan than any other american in discrimination discrimination economically educationally health politically injustice and that permeates the country and that creates instability and the south is only a small part of the story second we have to recognize that on fortunately in sudan it's too common that the political leaders feel comfortable resorting to violence as a legitimate way to pursue their political objectives and engage in their atrocities and thirdly we have to recognize the nature of the regime the vote is a shining moment the sudan people deserve most of the credit the helpful but the vote is not the end of the story it may not even be the beginning of the end of the story the contested border areas obviate oil revenue sharing and citizenship are not just the headlines of issues it is the fundamental dispute which over six years have been known for six years khartoum has blocked progress on those issues and purse and for the last six months khartoum reaches commitments look at just the c p a big greed to a buy by the border commission it made its determination the south except it the north refused they agreed to abide by the arbitration the permanent arbitration court in the hague in its determination of the border that process went for the north except i mean the south except of it the north three few in the c p a the north agreed to disarm an evolving demobilize their militias they did not they committed to transparency and oil revenue sharing and accounting they did not important to recognize that people again underlying all this what is the us goal in two thousand and five it was in part the separation and we paid for that it would be overpaying now injustices commit continued atrocities continue the week before the vote began in the referendum eighteen bombs dropped in the south the u n certified that they were from the sudan armed forces and the south is not the only area subjected to this for in the nuba mountains cannot be separated we should not rush to bear the rush to give benefits the nine neighbors in china have not been helpful but we've reached a tipping point where they see that separation is going to happen and so they have been on the margins helpful they can do more the administration has tried to encourage it they should there's an enormous development challenge but it has to have burden sharing in the european union and others have to increase their participation i am concern about a process that began begins in a litany of incentives before performance before specific agreements before verification mechanisms are put in place before there's monitored results as ronald reagan used to say trust but verify i am concerned about it and i fear once again the su woman forward the southerners have kemah come out they vote they are going to decide their destiny which is going to be the suppression from the mother country of sudan but as everybody agrees including peace and stability in all of sudan and the neighboring countries in the region first the relationship between north and south sudan must be clarified before cessation formally takes place in july this involves detailing the economic arrangements both governments have the potential to spark violence second the conflict and therefore must be re prioritized and with peace process has trickled along for years while violence has intensified in recent weeks now with the time to revitalize the priest peace process one that has emerged along for years with very limited effect on the ground in darfur number three at a time when political changes will be underfoot in both the north and the south political process on focus on the rich and development in the return of i d p s development and implementation of justice locally we believe that this plan is not only problematic but that it heis the government's true intention of seeking a military as well as popular consultation in the border states of southern kordofan a blue nile investing in civil society groups independent voices political party development and other building blocks to a more democratic future fundamentally steps that the u s can take toward preventing future conflict in sudan in the south we see a fragile new state that is filled with potential it is in the interest of the united states to help lay the foundation for  thank you very much madam chair vassar williamson thank you very much for being here by the way what years were you at the united nations human rights commission for i think it was i was there in the late eighty's early ninety's working for one of your predecessors u i was assistant secretary at the time and a man from a great job which is an important issue and we should continue to put pressure on the island prison thank you and thank you for you thank you for those words thank you for your service with respect to the roadmap and basser pursuant to the roadmap presented the administration is poised to remove sudan from the state sponsors of terrorism list so that they high level visits exchange ambassadors ease sanctions and advance negotiations for debt relief in exchange for khartoum meeting its own obligations under the comprehensive peace agreement united states leverage with regard to dar for would be reserved to lifting sanctions that cannot be removed without legislative relief in your opinion does khartoum care about the remaining sanctions and realistically what leverage with the united states have with regard to daraa for the administration pursues this course first a generic observation congressman the last  regime deserves the mantle of legitimacy the more they desired and those actions always into question the legitimacy of the government of khartoum so it's beyond whatever economic benefit or other better it goes to their legitimacy with in sudan and outside secondly as i noted earlier i am concerned about being too anxious to provide incentives remember the comprehensive peace agreement was agreed to six years ago when i was special envoy it was my view after meeting with the leaders often and kharto meetings that through the criticism from senators obama biden and clinton that they had already made a decision at the time they signed c p a that they may be having to give up the south i've noted that all the difficult issues that matter have not been resolved we have a long way to go be on the six month period when separation will become official before we know if those commitments will be made and i also know from my various positions in government there's a bureaucratic momentum once you start the process again to cite president reagan trust but verify we have to see more thank you bassett are in november two thousand and eight and bats are lining participate in a conference hosted by the embassy and sweden in the united nations association on the responsibility to protect and according to a meeting summary he suggested that our fair would be excluded from obligations inferred from the responsibility to protect because the crimes were committed prior to adoption of the world summit outcome document in two thousand and five what is your position on this and does the united nations have a responsibility to protect marginalized populations in sudan in the event that the regime in khartoum decides to crush the remaining opposition following a vote for independence in southern sudan i think the general responsibility to protect preceded the millennium summit outcomes document adopted in september two thousand and five furthermore i think when you look at the genocide in slow motion that continued after the adoption of that document it is important for the united states and the international community just that step up to its responsibility not me know i'm loathe to ever disagree with ambassador princeton lyman who i have the greatest respect for but in this case i do think we have a responsibility i've noted that as recently as two weeks ago khartoum was involved in bombings in the south they've been involved in bombings in dar for they continue to engage in coordinated attacks it is less intense only because there are fewer targets of opportunity that should be a concern it's not the link from the north south nor the difficulties in the nuba mountains we have to be more robust and one of the disappointments has been that those violations of past agreements have occurred and lives have died and there's been a reluctance in the administration to hold to account and  and publicly criticize the perpetuators of these atrocities thank you very much appreciate your service again nice seeing you after twenty years and i you know back the balance of my time you so much so pleased to yield to the ranking member of of the africa global health and human rights mr payne of new jersey thank you very much let me ask you this this mail what do you think the prospects of a right to return for the people of dar for has the government thought of any plan is it safe for some areas to have a right to return for people to live in refugee camps for now until the next generation is wrong so i would even like to  see sanctions held until the government comes up with a plan of the right people to return to their properties we don't dream or miss their pain because the government of sudan  obstacle in the way of peace in darfur and the refugees and i d p s cannot return today to the regions to the place of origin because there is nothing there after they've been burned and all the infrastructure that was there to support life was destroyed during that tax and again there is another reason because most of these areas were occupied by people who in some reports we have seen meeting you and abby ace the flames were still smoldering what is your take on the east we are very low about the east and as we know there are problems there how do you see the government in khartoum moving forward with the problem and the ease with the separation from the  south will there be panicking well the east side that they should have some protest against the government and do something perhaps that happened and are for when that began what do you think about that part thank you congressman payne i think relevant to that is what is been the u s policy goal a bipartisan policy goal in sudan and it's to bring sustainable peace stability and justice justice that's been denied doing due to marginalization and you are correct in the east in the nuba mountains as well as darfur as well as in the south they have been victims of those injustices and if there's just member men of sudan and the south is independent next july you still have the root cause of injustices that will not be addressed and i am loath to be too generous till those issues are dealt with for those who've been subjected to violence as well as the injustice and i think the instability and traumas will continue both in the east as well as in the west secondly  congressman there's a lot of talk about the stress that's going to be on the north after separation if it comes and i acknowledge that that's true there'll be people that say the government's lost sledge intimacy the opposition will try to unite the rebel movements may move more aggressively and are for over reach but there are also will be stress in the south political competition has been suppressed because of the unity to try to move to c p a implementation and i would suggest that the competition that will be unleashed in the next six months in the next twelve months also will be severe in juba that it will be difficult for the government of says that bashir should still be indicted where do you think that's going i am very concerned it's ironic that president george bush who opposed the i c c was a stronger supporter for international accountability of the regime in khartoum than this administration has been thank you very much the chairman designate smith of the africa global health and health human rights gentlemen thank you very much for your testimony and for your leadership new york times our reporter jeffrey gentleman wrote a piece roots of bitterness in the region threaten sudan's future is in the new york times on january fifteenth and he talks about how most people in our armed to the teeth my question first is where have all those a k forty seven s gone that we believe the chinese government helped to facilitate well in excess of one hundred thousand are they there are we perhaps being a little too optimistic about the prospects of of a peaceful transition here or what i think congressman if you're dealing with sudan you have to have a fall of optimism to be able to deal with such a difficult issue so i have no fault there but as you know if it's human rights first if it's a small arms commission of the u n the documentation of chinese small arms has been  and we can assume there been credible reports of the flow of those arms down into regions near the border directed by car to me it's a matter of great concern i think as congressman pa said we were together in r b a when the smoke was still coming up where the charred bed remains where there are no homes as far as you can see and then there were fifty thousand people were living under torn sheets during the rainy slaves i mentioned earlier about the thirty five thousand you have any recommendations on how to liberate them from the bondage that they live in the north also on thirty five to thirty billion dollars of indebtedness to mostly to other countries like saudi arabia and kuwait but also my understanding is correct about two billion to the u s when you talk about or when the administration talks about the roadmap could you again say whether or not you believe because that is certainly a part of that lifting the designation as a state sponsor of terror and other issues obviously are in there as well could you speak to that roadmap if you would how comfortable you are with eit citizenship something that the government gives to itself some ministers in the government of sudan today they hold other passports from different countries including this country and they are not going to allow those owners who were born and raised in sweden as such to have dual citizenship i don't understand that we have to work hard in this issues on the road map or therefore we have to revitalize the peace process we have to support to mediation and we have to have some high level people who are involved law which doesn't exist it's still the role of position in power and second shining light on it that's the best disinfectant team and rights abuses the united states and others should both engage in speaking out more grass thank you very much the gentleman from missouri mr carnahan thank you madam chairman and let me first just say congratulations again we're looking forward to working with you in this new congress and with your leadership and thank you for holding this timely an important hearing i really want to focus my time and again acknowledge this referendum i think it causes it's cause for hope the international community especially the african union the u n to play important roles  two panelists here why the u s why it's important for the u s continue to engage in these international organizations to leverage the work in sudan what have been some of the tangible benefits so far and how might we going forward maximize the collaborative efforts and if we could start with ambassador williamson please thank you congressman  i think if we look at sudan we see a long history of various small tight lateral mechanisms making a contribution yeah get process itself forward has seven eastern european eastern african countries the troika of the united states britain and norway were instrumental in being the midwife of the comprehensive peace agreement since then there's been significant lateral efforts with respect to peacekeeping force the african union forces then the un forces both in the south and in the west they have not stopped by a once they can't they don't have the capacity the areas are too big they've crowded out the space for pat violence and they've given some window for peace negotiations and discussions i think you can also look at the assistance where it's been an international effort to the sudan consortium i think that congressman rohrabacher and he'll probably raise it about the burden sharing the u s clearly has made a disproportionate contribution nonetheless sudan consortium has it involved other countries many other countries norway's taking the lead in coordination over the course and there has been that assistance but finally sir if i could let me know that the success to the degree there's been humanitarian success in sudan whether it's in dar for or in the south the  risking their own lives so it has been a collective effort i do think the u s deserves no doubt only for its lead on the humanitarian assistance pivotal role in the besides the ten billion dollars that we just talked about here that they are not the spend in the south they are today over a billion dollars that they are not spending for to keep about three and a half million williamson was right i would like to focus a little bit on the disproportionate contribution that the united states is making not only in sudan but this i think exemplifies many  managerial crises that we find around the world if there's anything the last election should have told the rest of the world it is united states can no longer afford to do this we are going broke and once our economy is broken by the responsibility that we had then we will be able to help no one not our own people not other people in crisis the world needs to take that into other places that we've seen these horrible tragedies take place this the heart rending murder of innocent people we care about that but we can no longer afford to carry a big burden as we have and what makes it worse perhaps and ambassador williamson you seem a bit pessimistic that after this ten billion dollars of investment that we've made  that we will actually succeed it's a rough road to go let me ask you is the road map that has been set boundaries consider that to be adequate or and if it is adequate has it been forced and followed or do we need the roadmap will not succeed because it does not address the issues that need to be addressed congress and we're back to make a few points that i think are relevant first it's noteworthy that when the regime came to power nine hundred eighty nine total exports were five hundred million dollars they good in nine and a half billion by two thousand and eight almost all from oil which is why the oil revenue sharing is crucial second with that sort of money coming in the government of sudan who designed the genocide for the end of two thousand and eight their total contribution to the humanitarian needs of the people in darfur was thirty million dollars i think that's not irrelevant to the considerations of how much faith we should have secondly china gets six percent of its imported oil they have now to sudan they have now tipped where they understand it's in their interest to have stability they should step up more  for humanitarian assistance the larger question you raise on humanitarian assistance is is beyond my purview it's up to the four hundred thirty five of you in the hundred across the way to make those decisions ultimately but i do think there is an impulse in america that is worthy that is part of our mission that recognizes whether it's human rights humanitarian assistance we have an obligation to step up but we should be tough minded about it get others to step up too especially in these times of economic peril and finally let me just say on the road map on good days i'm optimistic  my experience teaches me to maybe be a little skeptical and cynical and i think the talk of incentives without the talk of coersion without the talk of steel without the talk of being tough is a matter of great concern is bismarck said diplomacy without coercion is like sheets of music without instruments the  no amount of humanitarian assistance is going to increase the standard of living of anybody for any length of time unless it is accompanied by a democratization and a change in character of a regime that is capable of the type of violence that you've just described isn't that correct yes congressman i think it's important to note in the south not only will they do they have eighty percent of this oil revenue show but they have other mineral resources and they have among the richest agricultural land anywhere outside of l a noire force has the best start let me know before my time runs out which is one moment and that is  chairman if we are going to help people in the future and they have the potential well that exists it is not wrong for us to suggest we are going to help you in this crisis but we expect to be paid back one way or the other thank you mister the gentleman from ohio mr shabbat thank you madam chair i just couple questions briefly could you discuss the roles of both the african union and the arab league and all the things that we're talking about here this afternoon and  what do you anticipate it will be in the near future quickly my experience is it's been an even the african union understandably is worried about countries being split there are only two african countries that have just two ethnic groups most of them have multiple ethnic groups they're concerned about a contagion as are the nine neighbors but i think now that they've understood the inevitability of this they played a more constructive role the arab league was helpful as well as the african union on questions of accountability but they have been helpful on some of the development issues  and particular should be singled out in the minister of state for foreign affairs mood for their extraordinary leadership in trying to get constructive discussions going on for so could they have done more yes should they have done more in my opinion yes we wish they'd done more absolutely but they have made contributions and more lately than they did a few years ago thank you and then finally what  we do to ensure that the corruption which is endemic in much of africa doesn't take root although certainly there is already corruption in southern sudan but doesn't thrive in what may soon be africa's newest  country transparency transparency transparency your first three priorities second good governance it will require helping train a larger coterie people to run the agencies and departments of the newly independent southern sudan and third some good green eyeshades from outside donors and others to try to monitor it and ultimately congressmen who are bachar indicated if there is in fact a democratic process of accountability that this is useful and often determinative aspect in corruption fighting thank you thank you your background want to thank you very much thank you to the presenters thank you to i mean our panelists and great