involved what we believe was an illegal seizure excessive use of force and deliberate indifference on treating the man after he was shot so i'd like to start with the  wrongful seizure if i could and give the background on the story shows how the case develops new concord is about twenty five twenty miles south of a shocking county and  the decision we believe was driving his truck but there is nothing in the record that night showed he was driving the struggle the officer knew concourse in a truck run a red light so he starts falling the truck to try to pull move the truck he's not speeding he's not going to hundreds of miles an hour in fact he opens up a dialogue with the muskingum county sheriff's office who is his dispatcher and reports his time his speeds fifty five sixty fifty five sixty and he drives in the trial court finds but oh twenty minutes and the new concord officer voluntarily broke off contact you be able identify i gree run i agree but the fact remains that there was news you know those things happen a police officer can see a hairdo he could report and the gender of the driver maybe the race of the ok well the the policemen are on station or patrol and they see this car turn so they come out on him and following for about fifty seconds and they testified they saw no violations they're going to stop being b the cruiser and you hear somebody make an audible rant and you see the cars go down and you see stalled brake lights come on he's trying to avoid gerakan came off and so he swerved to get around it and then he pulls up that gets tangled up in his is actually so stall snyder pulls his cruiser over and he's got the camera snyder i mean excuse me the truck pulled down into the view of where the cars he's not paying attention to the right we're probably not paying attention to any of the efforts of the police to get him to stop what's the at that point in time what what's your argument as to why there's no probable cause well you can't provoke somebody in the stopping you can drive down to just turn your lights on see people don't stop and use as a reason stop we had rocks testimony that said he could see in and sees the man he looking at is has a right to just continue down th they didn't see any violations there know of any violations so they just turn your lights on and that's not a proper stop and the fact that mr stalls vehicle hit the police officers car isn't that an assault police officer and i believe that deputy snyder could be justified in thinking he saw assault but that to not that's not why he said that later when snyder has exercised deadly force he claimed that's not why he should stop he was worried about people down the road frankly be hard to get that truck up on that hill he said when he shot was to protect himself nobody  the excessive force the video captures most of them from the police cars states can you see the officer get out of his car come around to run the car walk across the road pulling his handgun out and he starts to descend on the road now he told the b b c i investigate or that before he left a road he could see debris and all kind of things coming off them tires like stall was trying to get  looks at the car and he wants to run across the car he claims to check going stone who had got out ran to the driver's side of that car so snider takes off on his days in from the car he gets off to the seventeen degrees off the front seat print with a headlight of that car he says he's five feet from the car and he shot three times through the windshield the car still moving he is killed and he gets to the side door and fires two more times strike and so on through that we didn't die right away but it cost us debt and our here and then the two to the side were down low so he could hit him in the through to the corner called it a bullet straight ribeye me did the autopsy show four shots the autopsy show that the first three shots are ok but the second two are not i don't think any of them were justified in who's one when you're a police officer and you're going to run from a car it's not like the split second decision you got to make when you get to the other side of the car you knew me when you're going to get in safe you know when you get not a danger you noon you get the side of the car i'm no longer in danger don't just step aside and let the car go by he could have to he could have to instead he shot right here and you went on by and shot through here so you're saying that the tact of snyder didn't have the right to go check on his on his colleague who was  was ok and when he gets to the other side he doesn't shoot until he sees stone standing up with his dog smashing that side window with a flashlight before you opens fire now he already knows that his buddies ok there's no need to actually exercise deadly force to protect him in that car now doesn't pose a danger to anyone i tried to drill down on him now asking move was the imminent danger you faced drove for miles six seven miles without a peep at the red light is on thank you for your argument you'll have your rebuttal time thank morning morning your honor is my name is sandra gal so it's i represent the shocking county apple e's in this matter judge bush i want to start with follow up on your question as to whether they're arguing that deputy snyder wasn't permitted to fire at all or are they just challenging the last the last shot that he fired because i have the same question in their briefing 'm in this court has stated in the supreme court has stated that the use of deadly force is constitutional when officers probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm either to the officer or to others and this court just reaffirmed that in a decision that we filed a supplemental forty two weeks ago in stevens record versus city of columbus we're supposed to consider the to of the circumstances from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene that's what graham versus conner tells us so here are the objective facts that deputy snyder knew he knew that mr stall was driving and evaded law enforcement from an adjoining county he knew from his own perspective that if the speed during the chase were fifty five sixty miles per hour within this very moment i don't know what the speed limit was there was or anything else that the initial policeman observed about the car or that or mr stall that i give rise to probably cause other than the fact that he wouldn't pull over because of the lights well the initial officer so he  traffic violation and wanted to see what was the red light running the red light around radel so you have new concord officer jeremy downie sees him go through a red light and then tries to pull him over lights and sirens and he doesn't pull over and he constructing county he thought it was becoming unsafe for him to continue the pursuit and so he stopped his pursuit but he's also testified that he fully expected that muskingum county  was there first where you only need a reasonable suspicion to stop the car that's what delaware versus processes there's ample reasonable suspicion in this case eat they've got a car that has the same license plate and the same description that was fleeing another officer that was seen twenty five minutes ago certainly that alone is reasonable suspicion for an officer to stop the car and what do you have the ability to do to confirm or later point the seizure couriers when and deputy snyder uses controlled contact to force stalls truck off the road that's when the seizure occurred the supreme court's been very clear on what constitutes a seizure intentionally applied to stop the vehicle that a seizure occurs and the examples that you have from supreme court case law are scott versus harris which was a pit maneuver just like pulls in front of stalls truck to try and slow stalled down at that point you had probable cause it not only reasonable suspicion of probable cause to stop the truck for failure to comply which is a violation of revised code twenty nine twenty one point three three one i mean what's next i mean it's a felony oh yeah ok so and the law  so if an officer signals for you to pull over and you're in a car you have to pull over if the officer didn't have probable cause or reason is reasonable suspicion to pull you over your recourse this in court you don't get to just decide i don't have to pull over and keep going it so that's so that's a violation of the law and they certainly have probable cause at that point i want to go back if i can to the excessive the alleged excessive force i think that's the primary claim in this case so snyder knows that this truck has fled other law enforcement he has seen this truck flee him and another deputy so they have to prove there is following this car he won't stop then he sees the truck and ram into decker deputy sure rocks crews are sending him careening into a concrete barrier and as opposing counsel stated it looks terrible and it certainly would have looked terrible to deputy snyder and that's the perspective that we're supposed to judge this case from  in fact he said he's you know deputy snyder would be justified in thinking he saw an assault and assault on a police officer which would be at minimum a felony of the second degree in ohio because it was used with a deadly weapon the car so he forces the car the truck off the road and deputy stone exits with his canine he's trying to get to de snow he's prevented momentarily from exiting his vehicle as he crosses down to get to deputies to right as he's come in in front of the car then the truck starts to move towards him and here's the testimony in this case from both deputies snyder and deputy stone stall with both hands on the steering wheel looked right out on and began excel orating towards them at that point snyder evidence in the record that five bullets were fired if you look at the post shooting forensic a best investigation that's in the record at record entry ninety one dash eight that's the be ohio's bureau four rounds missing from the gun and they've recovered at least part of all four rounds three rounds impacted the front windshield three rounds impact of the front windshield two of the bullets were recovered from stalls body one from his shoulder one from his head another bullet skipped off the roof of the truck and they recovered a fragment of that bullet and the fourth bullet which they didn't find initially was found  by the descendants family later on in the side door of the truck that's every round what about mr walker's point about that detective snyder knew that detective stone was ok before he started firing is that is is there testimony to that effect just before so snyder's coming down the embankment he turns to his left to radio the officer that got hit to see if he's ok doesn't get a response and when he looked back up he can't see deputy stone anymore and for a moment he thinks deputy stone got run over he is able to pick up deputies right before the car starts coming at him so so he knows he knows before you start shooting that stone didn't get run over just before the shooting of the way he would know that but that doesn't own is still over there stones in a dangerous position stones next to the driver's side window with his flashlight trying to break trying to break the window of the driver side so he can stop them so he has two options i guess snyder if he wants to get to stone us to run in front of the truck or behind a truck and i guess you can't get behind a truck is that the testimony it's not that he can't get behind the truck it's at the moment that he decides i'm going to head to the driver side the truck stop moving it's one he crosses in front of then it starts to move right out and it's not moving when he starts moving in front of the truck he thinks the truck may be a stationary at that point it was stationary for a brief moment and then and then just as he he crosses in front of the truck's headlights you see you can see the truck start to move towards him ok so he has the money start shooting as a result of the truck moving toward him correct and is his testimony that all the shots take place without a second correct is there any other testimony as to the timing of the shots other than his deputy stone's testimony would also confirm that deputy stone testified that he heard three shots fired within about one second and both said a second yes and how close i know you said that our system was on the side of the truck banging on the window with the flashlight so when the truck started to move stone was not the one in immediate obvious payroll at that time correct correct ok snyder was coming across the front of the truck you say yes up is there anything in the record that shows the distance from the truck at the time the truck began to move snider testified that he was about five feet from the truck so it was five feet from being run over and one thing that i think you can look at when you look at the video so when you look at the cruiser video  in the bottom right hand corner of the video there's the time of day and the day and you will see snyder run across it like he runs across the screen right where that time with time and date are and you will see the truck when it ends up and up right where the time and they are in other words the truck and stop right where snyder would have been if snyder hadn't moved or if he hadn't been able to get across to the driver side he would have been run over  so and under under our law that an officer is entitled to defend himself if he's in danger of being run over by a  truck in addition the district court also found that snyder was justified in firing because sniper because that stall had shown that he wasn't going to stop for anyone that he presented a continuing danger to both officers and to the public and the district court cited smith versus freeland for that and that's a case in which that's a case in which  officers had a suspect who engaged in a four minute police chase they had him cornered and he kept trying to escape and an officer fired through the side not through the front window he fired through the side window of but  truck driving or radically speeding we going over anything of that nature is that correct not other than i don't you and i but i am i'm referring to your statement that it was obvious that he wasn't going to stop for anybody him and continue to be a danger to others and so that danger how you characterize him that they just simply that he just was not going to stop well and he there was a fifth round the b c i found and it is in the record the reports are in the record we put them in but does it really matter given that the testimony is that all the shots were fired within one second well absolutely relation to your target and you're now again in the position we're no longer in harm's way and you knew you were going to get there before you started your day shift i get to the serum sleep why can we feel we should but are humans have a quick enough reaction time to really make that calculus whether they're in front of the car the side of the car without a second shooting five shots yes because it's it's a good time to pause and ponder i used in a second you know before when you're on your run and you know why i get there i'm home for what it was that something you didn't expect that was some good plan for you got to the side of the car where you knew you would be safe that's not something that jumped up and sprang up and surprised you it's not a split second opportunity you know when i get to the side of the car he can or me and you still shoot so i disagree with them sorry or the other case that i had i think it's in a brief i'm sure it is waterman be back in there was a tool gate case i wrote down this guy he was in a maryland washington airport and he had tried to run over some of the sheriff or the security personnel there and he made his way going through a toll booth and they opened up on shot and then when he went through the toll booth they captured and the court said that's that's not ok that's not ok you knew the danger had passed and you still kept shooting and they decided in the the point were i think you asked europe judge bush about whether snyder saw stone before he fired that was in his declaration that it's ninety one days five and