two different principals decided that they should not get past that point so i'd like to bring this down to what it means for our students because we often don't think about them i hope you think about it but conservatively said you know initially decided not to hire so that's not something that would ever be subject to our tradition is no ok and then let's say the person lasted a year and after the first year the school decided not to rehire for how many probationary period can be half a year with four years you have to be a teacher or so you have three probation ok but can you be released after the first year yes  let me ask you this this is a situation where the the charges or the complaint is that they were entitled to have a letter in their file given to them at the same time that they were going to put it denied higher in the in the hiring decisions to pretty much generally hiring and firing or an economic hiring or not to rehire a probationary teacher would never be subject to arbitrat it true that's right the manager you know how do you how do you take that to this and say what their response be that will then why should this be arbitrary because it actually goes to whether or not it's it goes to the idea of not retiring i'm not sure they try to make an argument that well is that is that too simplistic of an approach know your i don't believe it is i think that's the exact approach we get to make a decision that we don't want these teachers to be you know we don't want any more students to be subjected to a teacher's we've given them two years already we don't want to subject any more past seeking and i believe that's our managerial right how long after after the oh they were ok well it is correct isn't it that up three of the fork there was no letter placed at the same time that they were their record doesn't really show that it says that doesn't really you don't get written the ice we're going to fit if you think we're not going to rehire you that was the policy that was put in effect in may when the collective bargaining agreement has a profession that says if we put something in your personnel file we have to notify you before you go into you know i like this one question do you agree with the boy's conclusion that that under the language of the c b a grievance may be arbitrated bullet even if it cannot be tied to specific language that they were rehired they were let go ok and nobody wanted there's nothing at all ready for let go because they were because they were mad well they were let go and they could not  what they're trying to arbitrate the fact that a letter wasn't in their file regarding there not being exactly what they're asking two of them are actually asking to be rehired isn't there a case sort of and want to get it right so in that case the collective bargaining agreement said the personnel file must contain the reason for disciplinary action and your contention in that case and dissent was that how can it be that you know you money someone it should be in the personnel file but in that case he said that it was it was an interesting argument because he said that martin freeman did require the evaluations to be in writing and the actual language was the teachers to be notified deficiencies and receive a recommendation for improvement and i think he was taking the position that that could've been done more of and that's why nothing was right but those cases i think are good for us because they show that in the in both people for marriage only after satisfactory s alleging various provisions violations of various professions of the collective bargaining agreement if you look at the bargaining agreement because that's the parties governing document for their workplace don't mean to talk over you know what we're when we're talking about oh this isn't a work situation that's now we're talking about what those work situations mean the ets a question for the arbitrator because when the parties bargained their collective bargaining agreement they don't bargain everything because who knows what circumstances you can't you can't know every circumstance that is going to come up so there's yes and the bar and the barking is that maybe at let's see if this one year and there's a decision that they're not going to be someone they want to bring back for another probationary period ok of one year i understand in that instance  i would think that that would be difficult but this is that ok well there's there's there's procedures here ok so you're not sure about well you know let me get into those procedures also you have the right to hire and fire you want to hi her well there is a collective bargaining agreement not to say if it's not in the car let the bargaining agreement know it is not just there no specific language in there one way or the other and russ is a probationary teacher at the end of the year you could let answer that yes or no it sounds like you're going to say well i'm not really sure i thought that was kind of a clear cut issue hit management decisions to hire or fire not are usually but to hire someone are not into this a think we know the answer to this question let's go on to well to stop with this you know the question here is a here is this a work situation but that's for the arbitrator to decide whether or not what work situation means because that's a very broad it depends on what is a management decision ok so we did that produce a little bit of it is a management decision then it will not be subject to arbitration if it's not a management decision it is parties can parties can bargain all bought of different provisions as well didn't they have a provision that said that management provisions banishment provisions are not subject to arbitrate he have a general reservation of rights it's a general reservation of rights in order to exclude something from our aspiration there he has to be the next rests reservation right because arbitration pay is favored in the law because this is the party's agreement so although there is an exclusion for management one is there they have bargained terms and conditions that they can agree on and the agreement is then that where there is a dispute as to what those mean that are  the sense of what the collective bargaining agreement provides but as long yes as long as it's arguably arbitrary will and that's not there's if you can make an argument that there's language on the face of the contract this should go to arbitration and the reason for that is well are we going to ignore whether or not this is a new employee situation or not i mean do we just ignore that provision and say it's really not there and we're not going to decide whether it tied to the collective bargaining agreement is the issue but that's that's going to be and here the collective bargaining agreements the grievance clause is much broader than either of you know at arbitration is no i know would explain but why don't you tell us what explain it explains the at the parties bark and collectively they don't agree they they if they can't agree on everything provided for arbitration if the point of the recent past us now is tar is the hiring of new employees what is tactics in this case are you basically saying that if there's a question about whether file about why they didn't get it at the fact that you can arbitrate whether or not they can rehire your right so you agree with that principle you're not going to take all wishy washy out we're not sure i don't know maybe it and you agree the upcoming year not really not when you are you are you saying they're unemployed then for those months they're not technically the employee you're us i think they need they do have certain rights meet aren't they pretty much not an robot or whatever it still seems to need to be we're talking about a decision whether to hire a new employee and it and if that's not something subject to arbitration i don't know why putting something in the file lack of the roles exactly i guess well i think the best i can get out of their argument is that the reason that this is arbitrary lose because it's not clear that