due process because it is healing with a person who's been on the show for nineteen years no trying to disciplinary actions the fire chief patrol in the give him a one day suspension for four incidents the commission uses only two of those instances to make a determination that his name should be passed over the list and the next person cases i cited basically stand in for the proposition that the hearsay is a fundamental rule of evidence and i mean to say that when you have a man on jobs for nineteen years no to present his side by way of the speaker by way of the speaker's writings to the commission he did not have the right to appear nor did he appear he had a right if you question is did you have the opportunity to do that yes or no may not appreciate your choice and you change things out but did you have the opportunity to present say or written statement from another firefighter because of the rules the provide for disciplinary he the court more wilkinson on behalf of the civil service commission and its individual commissioners and the focus on where the court wanted us to go the the order here and whether mr chamberlain had a property right and one of the point of the quarter mr chamberlain's reply brief to our our brief on page eighteen in the first bullet there he mentions that his client is not claiming that he had a property right in the  whether you're going to be promoted or whether you're applying for a job that titles him to an automatic promotion are automatically receiving the job so no vested right to the job and that list if it finds that he will review the other witnesses they shall appoint unless so perhaps a difference in where you put the emphasis but that seems the more reasonable reading understand you to put first phrase first well i suppose you could read it that way but we redid the way that the commission has the discretion of the castle as long as it satisfies the situation i would suggest that you're right that he would get the job if there's nothing before the commission that in any way suggests that he engaged in us those two conditions the shortcomings or mission doesn't go see these things on its own promotion where there is perhaps a statutory base circuitry actual basis and we have both here if you read it the way i just just kind of put it to you this that you know before the promotion act and also the c v a which mirrors th be with you that the commission has to point the next name but let's let's think about example where these these listen to this for two or three years so let's think about a situation where there is misconduct in a firefighters file two relatively new statute i can't point to any examples of where that's happened but in my experience yes there have been situations where folks have been disciplined on the job and don't dispute with what did the rules of the civil service commission rules provide for here by way of a hearing the records silent on that point but what we did there the commission invited both mr chamberlain and the fire department to submit information to the commission to consider whether it's going to pass over mr chamberlain process here is a flexible concept we're talking about a promotion we're not talking about somebody who's been let go over to his charge so my question do is to require that in this case there were other firefighters who had created their own memos and we have a proceeding under the fire department promotion act and that's where we invited mr chamberlain and mr drafts to submit to the fire department should say to submit information to the commission so it made  well my understanding is the rule on this is the civil service commission rule on its tracks the fire department promotion act and the collective bargaining mr mcguire so i took me to the firm of thinking i was part of the administrative process that led to this controversy i only took a short time because i think although i started substantial issues and in chief and the chief there faced with the fact that this person is not here to become a leader of men and women of the hearings of the civil service commission and they are although many union councils don't believe it they are independent they have their own workers they make their own judgments and i said here's what i hear  cars he did not recall significant events you think you will recall and i think the basic credibility test he fit because he did not recall things that you normally would absolutely true you have to ask questions of the person you have to nor everybody on the list had a property interest defected to names on the list ok and then are you saying in the due process always equates with the right to cross examine examination why would i be joining you in that mess