order over the past year and a half this subcommittee has examined a variety of issues and has at least on our side been very critical of the president as administration and the state of affairs that the next president will inherit across the middle east and south asia as a result of the current president's policy so today will be a change of pace because if there is one area in the subcommittees jurisdiction where president bush got the policy right it is towards india but it isn't just this administration that got india right the clinton administration moved from ostracizing india after the one nine hundred ninety eight nuclear tests to embracing india as an emerging global power cemented by president clinton's historic trip to india in two thousand in which i was pleased and very proud to accompany the president on that mission bipartisan recognition of india's importance of the twenty first century underscored the need and provided the support for a broader deeper and closer in warmer relationship between two countries and that required moving a particular irritant involving civil nuclear technology the july two thousand and five joint statement by prime minister saying that president bush proved the key to unlocking the door of a range of issues in which india and the united states not only could cooperate but should cooperate i believe then and i believe now that the case to sivan civil nuclear cooperation between united states and india is clear compelling i strongly support the want to see agreement look forward to the government of india completing its internal process so that the us congress can give final approval to this historic deal as the title of this hearing indicates however there was much more to the july two thousand and five joint statement than civil nuclear cooperation and there is much more to us in the relations than just the one two three agreement in fact the two thousand and five statement covered a broad range of issues among which civil nuclear cooperation was just one that agreement revitalize the us in the economic dialogue and launched the c e o forum to deepen our bilateral economic partnership committed both nations to accelerate in trade investing in technology collaboration and launch the us india knowledge initiative on agriculture and in order to strengthen the foundations that make the moxie's credible and effective the u s india global democracy initiative was launched the two thousand and five agreement also called for greater efforts in the arena of commercial civil space cooperation what trade and high technology items and welcomed increased indian efforts to prevent  weapons of mass destruction alongside the joint statement the united states and india had earlier and a ten year defense pact outlining a plan global co op collaboration and multilateral operations expanded to a defense tra increased opportunities the technology transfer and co production as well as increase collaboration on missile defense and the list goes on i know right these things because the details illuminates how far the relationship is common just the last three years the breath and pace at which all these initiatives have expanded would boggle the mind of even the most optimistic supporter of u s india relations all of these various initiatives and not just pronouncements made by heads of government and forgot they have been matched by follow up and demonstrably success i'll cite just a couple of examples in the area of trade and investment the united states is india's largest trading partner and accounts for about one seventh of all foreign direct investments in india since one nine hundred ninety one in the area of defense cooperation the us india defense policy group meets annually and since two thousand and two the united states and india have held an unprecedented number an increase of stance of combined exercises involving all military services in addition the amount and sophistication of defense sales india has increased exponentially and the government of india has opened the door door for us berms to compete in the sale of multi rolled fighters to india one area of longstanding cooperation i haven't mentioned is counterterrorism india has been victims of terrorism for far longer than we have their experience with terrorism is deep and is as recent as the bombings last month in july poor in which a series of seven blasts occurred in twenty minutes at crowded markets and there hindu temple sixty five people were killed one hundred fifty wounded according to official estimates outthought and prayers are with the families of the dead and we wish the injured with the coverage this terrible attack ak serves as another gruesome reminder of how much in common the united states and india have when it comes to global fight against terror and how we must redouble our efforts to develop effective tool to defeat terrorism and violence religious extremism but before anyone leave this hearing with the idea that the u s and india will go riding off into the sunset and live happily ever after if i can mix movie endings there are some areas of disagreement that need to be mentioned and if left to fester could cut off our burgeoning relationship at the pass the one i have particularly in mind as india's  relationship with iran i have heard about and understood from a wide variety of indian government officials india's historic ties to iran and its domestic political need not to alienate hundreds of millions of its muslim citizens i've also heard and understood the arguments about india's ever increasing need for energy but i hope that india's officials will hear and understand the u s view of iran that iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons and regional hegemon e is a serious threat posed to international peace and stability in the middle east and the vital national security interest of the united states i believe in the end officials understand the us the second step perspective on iran and i know that india shares u s opposition to iran possessing nuclear weapons their courageous i demonstrate that i have a very difficult time understanding why the government of india continues to pursue a pipeline with iran and pakistan at a time when other nations in the world are just not implementing un approved sanctions which is india's historic position but are going further by cutting off access to banking services and discouraging other economic interactions with iran if the international community in the included wants a peaceful resolution to the iranian nuclear question and joining the growing international efforts to isolate iran that extend beyond the u n security council sanctions is the way to go forward continued pursuit of the pipeline or other investment in iran's energy sector as was hinted a few weeks ago by an unnamed by named officials that in the state run oil natural gas cooperation will halt and potentially even roll back the progress made in bilateral relations over the last several years i want to be clear that i am not suggesting that in the abandon its historic independent foreign policy though i am sure that there are those in india accuse me of just that what i am suggesting is that in the join the other nations who are doing more than just implementing un sanctions in an effort to economically isolate iran it is an effort that i believe is fully consistent as historic support of multilateral institutions and cooperation there has been tremendous progress in us in the relations over the last decade and particularly over the last three years there was every opportunity and very good reason to advance relations even further and future generations would consider us fools if we were to squander them mr wilson thank you mr chairman thank you chairman ackerman for holding this hearing today on u s india relations as a longtime supporter of strengthening the partnership between the united states and india i believe it's important that we discuss and recognise that us and our relations is indeed more than the one two three agreement as a young child i remember my father telling me about his time serving in india as a member of the flying tigers during world war two his stories about neural and hardworking people taught me valuable lessons about the culture and the people of india since those days are elation choked with india as a growing alliance that partners are dedication to democracy after all america is the world's oldest democracy india is the world's largest democracy and our willingness to be active participants in the global economy and marketplace as well as our strategic responsibilities in a rapidly changing world the united states and india need to continue to be fair and willing partners on economic energy and mass national security issues i hope the political difficulties that have stalled movement on the civilian nuclear greyman can be overcome hope that we cooperate with india on advancing research into new energy sources with their rapidly expanding economy the people of india will increasingly need access to affordable energy as will the people of the united states this will be mutually beneficial and lastly the security of both nations is the ultimate responsibility of our respective governments and surely the primary concern of all of our citizens in the global war on terrorism we have common enemies and we can learn from our indian partners how to to defeat terrorists who have attacked india for sixty years and killed over sixty thousand citizens moving forward there needs to be a robust and respectful debate about the strategic defense relationship and without a doubt the discussions over energy and economic growth will contain tribute to that debate no relationship between any two nations will be without disagreements or competing interests at times there are tremendous national regional and global concerns that the people of india must address but i have confidence they can and will it is my estimate vital that the united states continue to seek a fair and mutually respectful partnership with the people of india as indicated by the past three years of tremendous progress india america has been by the emigration of two point two million citizens from india who have been vital to business the medical and hospitality industries in america with my personal experience as co chair of the india caucus the largest country caucus in washington reflecting appreciation for the republic of india and through my many years of friendship with indian american community leaders today's hearing and look forward to the testimony again i wish to thank chairman ackerman and my fellow committee members for this opportunity it's clear that the relationship between the united states and then is experiencing an extensive and groundbreaking transformation this is ministration has already pledged to help india become a major world power in the twenty first century and as the most populous democracy in the world shares our commitment to democracy and the fight against terror from the shared interest the manifestations of a strengthen and the american relationship are quite evident economically and in the united states will mutually benefit from this strengthening of our time as the united states represents in the largest trading and investment partner on an overall india is the united states backed up a largest trading partner after china and light of the strong economic ties  renewed relationship will yield not only an increase in bilateral trade but also an increased flow of investments in terms of nuclear power and energy the signing of the one two three agreement and the hyde act signals  confidence to the world to give india increase access to civilian nuclear technology for peaceful purposes such as energy security  states will face from china as a result of strengthening ties with india and cites into existing nuclear and economic policies regarding india will be very very relevant additionally i would like to hear from our witnesses this afternoon of how this relationship may create a new dynamic in the upcoming presidential elections as we will have a new administration and just a very few months recently there have been talks surrounding and their desire to gain a permanent seat on the un security council i think it's important that we discuss how likely it is within the next five years that india will be successful in gaining such a seat and  strategies we might apply to see that that happens india has always had quite a rocky relationship with pakistan or like to have some discussion this afternoon on pakistan and is relationship and how will the u s balance its commitment to both these nations and such a competitive atmosphere and both the united states and india have faced terrorist attacks stemming from religious extremism i think we need to discuss the question of how can each country help the other in the global war on terror there is much that we need to discuss but also today if it hasn't happened already given the times india will meet with their leftwing allies concerning the nuclear deal between india and the united states i think that this is a very momentous occasion to say the least and a very important to have some discussion on those implications as far as the future of the coalition the risks that are being run and also what the international atomic energy is saying about this so needless to say the topic of the future of the united states and in his relations will yield much to cohen is a senior fellow in foreign policy at the brookings institution which he joined in one thousand nine hundred eight after a career as a professor of political science and history at the university of illinois he is the author co author editor of twelve books mostly on south asian security issues the most recent being for crises and the peace process american engagement in south asia and the idea of pakistan colin was a visiting professor at least one new school of public policy in singapore and taught at university in japan and university in india is also consulted various foundations and government agencies and was a member of the state department's policy planning staff from eighty five to eighty seven received his undergraduate to pakistan and moscow dr anderson also served in new delhi a special assistant to the us ambassador from one nine hundred eighty eight to ninety ninety one anyway and when he returned to the united states he headed the state department south asia division in the office of analysis for the near east and south asia dr anderson has also worked on indian ocean security issues with dr robert gallop you know at the university of california berkeley and while at the brookings institute wrote the brotherhood of  placed in the record in its entirety and if you could summarize in about five minutes or so that would leave ample time for the members to question dr cohen we will start with you ackerman and members of the subcommittee i'm pleased to share my expertise on the important question of the future of indian american relations fifteen years ago indians and americans both failed to anticipate or understand the events that were to transform the relationship along many dimensions mistakes were made on both sides and the recent difficulties and consummating the nuclear agreement might have been avoided had we thought more clearly and realistically about the overall relationship and the developments within each country that affects our ties i'll devote my time now to some of the areas of greatest promise in those areas were clear thinking and considered action may improve the relationship so that important indian and american interest are advanced good relations is often a euphemism for  feeling good about the other country this is not a useful criterion for developing policies that benefit both sides in specific and meaningful ways first on the economy expanded to a trade and new economic ties now constitute the balance of us of the us into a relationship we need not worry overmuch about a return to the dark days of the one nine hundred seventy s when india saw the us as a hostile circling power and washington simply ignored india yet government policy can facilitate or hamper economic ties in this case the reforms have to be largely on the indian side but american businesses business should be sensitive to indian concerns and indian practices and should endeavor to strengthen indian capacities especially in such areas as education american operations in india should not be seen as exploitive just as indian operations in the west will be judged as to whether they take away american jobs on strategic relations the motto should be look before you it would be wrong to expect a close  between the two countries on the basis of a hypothetical threat from china our relationship should be seen and presented as reinsurance against a malevolent china if you are that may never happen in the meantime both sides will be aware being drawn into the others conflicts with third parties india with american concerns about iran the us with india's continuing conflict with pakistan in both cases the root cause is political instability in iran and pakistan which makes their policies unpredictable and potentially harmful we should not demand indian support for all of our rainy and policies any more than we should allow india to dictate our policy towards pakistan there will be many opportunities for second tier military cooperation notably in disaster relief anti piracy efforts in helping stabilize countries that are unable to maintain their own integrity naval cooperation is likely to be the most fruitful area as the indian navy performs at a very high level of professionalism and now has a doctrine that encourage such cooperation india should be invited to join the task force one fifty of the gulf and india's navy and its capacity for power projection should be strengthened we should of course conclude the us india nuclear agreement the bulk of work to enable the deal has already been accomplished all the implementation will be very difficult while it would be imprudent to renegotiate the entire agreement i do see the possibility of concessions on both sides to make the agreement more attractive on our part we can reduce some of the limits on india's use of reactor products by products and i do not because i do not believe that india intends to build a vast arsenal and accept india as a nuclear weapon state on india's part the commitment to know more testing could be formalized preferably by signing th they could stabilize their arsenal designs so no new testing was necessary and we knew earlier commitments to arms control starting with the revival of the rajiv gandhi action plan they could also sign on to a location security initiative and join other arms control regimes the criteria should be those the agreement not only provide india with enhanced energy resources which is i think it does but does it on balance enhance global arms control and restraints on the development deployment of nuclear weapons it also translate into an agreement into a criteria based format potentially allowing pakistan and even israel to enter into a similar arrangement we should all give much greater priority to bilateral cooperation in education agriculture which was part of the two thousand five agreement and regional water and environmental issues my longer testimony i make the point that there is one area where i think looking ahead four five six years you could have a major even catastrophic development and that is the  disposition of the water that falls in the himalayas directly affects the likely livelihood and security of about a billion people in south asia china so the country so china nepal india pakistan and bangladesh are vitally affected by that water regional arrangement which could manage this development over time we need to recognise that this will be the big issue of the next decade and work towards collaborative mechanisms that include india in the resolution finally we should build our resource base for a long time and it was our intellectual resource base for a long time and it was defined us and it did not count economically and strategically now that it does we need to better understand such changes as the your support for a strong relationship with india rather than recites our many joint activities i'd like to focus on why india matters to the united states and the potential and limitations of the partnership that is emerging international partnerships different from the cold war era alliances i very much hope the nuclear agreement will be part of the model three factors transformed our relations after the end of the cold ocean security economics and democracy we start with a growing convergence of american interests from the persian gulf to the western pacific agreement underpins our military a we don't seem to like the term balance of power nowadays but that's what the u s and india want and expect both of those depend on the international energy market the world's second fastest growing energy oil represented one third of its import even before the recent persian gulf and indian ocean security is critical for both countries we share concerns about terrorism and gas you mentioned our disagreements over iran the chairman but even here do agree on the big strategic goal namely not having a militarily nuclear iran refusing to kill off the idea the second building block for india and the united states is economics india has had three years of over nine percent growth trade represent thirty four and the united states is a critical part of india's for us of course india has become an exciting destination for exports and investment democracy is the third building block for our partnership feasibility of amending the agreement if we get into that kind of situation in all likelihood the u s government will be looking for diametrically opposed amendments a lot of my foreign failed to get his time as allies which his government needs to sustain a coalition to back the civil nuclear deal and it was announced that they would have a subsequent meeting now the communists and others argue that the deal with undermined the independence of indian foreign policy but the very fact that an issue which involves a strategic relationship with the us has aroused such a debate in india underscores how far the in the u s relationship has come in the last several years but also i'm just underscores the difficulty india has in the difficulty india has in saying yes it is a sign that indian moves on to the international stage are by nature incremental and subject to a number of possible delays in the domestic political system of india which i'll get to in a few minutes in fact the in the u s relationship has undergone a dramatic transformation over the past ten years for the first time since india's independence in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven india and the us can realistically expect to build a partnership that advances their respective foreign policy and this in my view is based on the convergence of interests in several key areas the first is curbing religiously inspired political radicalism the second is defeating the forces of the taliban and al in afghanistan the third is managing the rise of china and the fourth is safeguarding the strategically important sea lanes across the indian ocean and that are used to transport much of the world's oil and gas this transformation has occurred so rapidly that we sometimes stated attempted to overstate what the relationship can achieve phrases like natural partners strategic allies and a relationship with no limits have been used by senior political leaders in both countries by using these terms however i think we risk losing sight of what we can realistically expect and we also risk a sense of let down if the results fall short of our expectations on security issues i think we need to start with the assumption that the u s relationship with india will not result in a military alliance or indian participation an alliance of democracies the inequality of power between our two countries the absence of a habit of cooperation and the residual bureaucratic and political resistance to to bring to deeper engagement will all limit the pace and scope of strategic cooperation still i think that there is no denying the fact that india will have more in common with the united states than it will with any of the other great powers and this will produce cooperation when there is a clear alignment of interest and india is treated as an equal partner such cooperation has already started and because india's rise to major world power in the long is in the long term interest of the united states i think we benefit from patience  india works out the precise terms of its relationship with us and i completely agree with ambassador schaffer that on the nuclear deal i think we have to remain we have to stick with what the deal presently has because to reopen negotiations i think could c reate major problems for cooperation in the future between our two countries on this issue and other issues as well there will however be significant areas where we continue to differ and most prominently as you mentioned chairman on iran but also on myanmar india maintains good relations with both countries because they are sources of energy and have a strategic value relating to china or myanmar and to pakistan and afghanistan for  iran a note of caution also applies to the economic dimension of the relationship india is emerging from decades of soft socialism and policies that favored economic self sufficiency there remains in india a residual skepticism about whether the market reforms adopted about fifteen years ago will result in greater social equity skepticism is even stronger regarding the opening of the economy to international competition and to foreign direct investment nonetheless the trend is in the direction of greater openness because it has worked the question is not whether there will be greater openness but the pace of the of the opening what  the us realistically expect of the relationship i believe the major factor in our relationship is economic and there are significant opportunities for increased sale of america american services and merchandise trade to india india's merchandise trade has over tripled since two thousand and the u s has been its largest trading partner every year while the two way merchandise trade gap has been favored every year since two thousand the gap is narrowing as an increasingly prosperous india imports american machinery and technology the u s trade draft deficit with india was cut almost in half from eleven billion dollars in two thousand and six to about six billion dollars in two thousand and seven trade in information technology and services are growing at an even faster pace than merchandise trade with an estimated fifteen billion dollars going in each direction last year industries in our two countries are developing a close symbiotic linkage in ways that benefits the economies of our two countries and this trade in my view should be encourage one of the major opportunities for the us is increased american sale of military equipment india has embarked on a comprehensive military modernization program and is spending about eight billion dollars a year on imported equipment some analysts predict it will spend about sixty billion dollars on military imports over the next five years the u s for the first time is a serious competitor because of the appreciation of the high quality of american military equipment there is however a lack of a indian community into operability and security memorandum of agreement i hate to use these acronyms but it's one that has the title of system and it's required for u s technology sales and india are reportedly has offered a counter draft proposal to enable it to access american arms my guess is that the negotiating process on this will require a high level bureaucratic attention similar to the involvement of nicholas burns on the issue of civilian nuclear cooperation where there was similar bureaucratic hurdles to overcome a second area where there was a good chance of indian cooperation with india indian engagement with the us on safeguarding shipping over the critical indian ocean sea lanes used to transport a growing percentage of the oil and gas to meet the growing demand from energy deficient countries like india china japan and korea this might be in the form of a memorandum of understanding preferably multilateral and involving the major uses to address a mutual interest in countering terrorism and piracy providing for search and rescue and humanitarian assistance unfortunately see lane protection in the indian ocean is presently covered by a number of ad h arrangements something more institutional is required that india with vital economic and security interests in the sea lanes would be a good candidate to be a major participation in a multilateral agreement it possesses the only indigenous blue water navy in the indian ocean has trained in counterterrorism and moreover the indian navy already has a record of collaboration with the u s on counterterrorism by providing escorts to american shipping exercising starting several years ago that are geared to anti piracy and counterterrorism such cooperation has the advantage of developing a certain comfort level in india for cooperation security cooperation with the united states and provides a model that can be used for security collaboration on a large scale to face crises affecting the interests of both united states and india finally india strategy of using its good relationship with the u s to provide it leverage to reduce the chances of threats from china also gives us an opening to push the pace on issues of strategic importance to the u s and which would serve indian military exercises and indian purchases of u s military equipment indian vote twice against iran at the international atomic energy agency wasn't prompted wasn't part prompted by an indian effort to build a security relationship with the us the lesson of the civilian nuclear deal and other areas with india has delayed action is not that the momentum with us his stall but that the relationship needs to move incrementally and at a pace that is politically acceptable in india as mentioned at the beginning the indian market is becoming more open because india has benefited from it and india is building a security relationship with the s because it is clearly in india's interest to do so thank you first i think we know that it's two to one as to whether or not the one to three agreement might be better off compromise or amended by each side in order to get it through not to  can it get it passed through the india process they're willing to bring down the government what bothers them is the strong relationship with the united states they are the only significant political element in india that opposes a strong relationship with the united states and the details don't matter because of one two three agreement that's not going to be not going to be with someone that is what they are threatening to do so it has nothing to do with them and they know that they're against it because of the relation to developing relationship with the u s they see this trend that we've all been talking about and they see it is dangerous and the civilian nuclear deal is a bigger question is does the left in india have the power to bring down the government if india positive relationship with united states has the power to bring down this government because at the parliamentary arithmetic have agreement could be concluded by government that has fallen and there may be some legal precedent for that but the larger the larger issue is that the indian government are going to be coalition government indefinitely which means less of a consensus the debate they're having internally is whether the government is prepared to take the risk of being brought down by pursuing the nuclear agreement and secondly if it does and if the last follow through on  to bring down the government whether the government go ahead and sign and implement an agreement under those circumstances my best understanding is that legally technically the question is there is a date coming up this important meeting next month the indian press has said that the prime minister would like to speak to president bush to say he was able to do something positive about that if that in fact is the case  you nothing but the normal usual suggestions about amendment at least on our side is to have something more specific on fiscal fuel and no testing i think if you got too explicit about that in the agreement which is why it was avoided before i think that almost guarantees that the views of the left would have more support rather than less i've run the clock on myself and to set an example using me  indeed some of you reflect to this in your in your statement today india's economic reform agenda seemed of only slow under the congress party led government my question would be how important are such issues as fiscal liberalization trade barrier removal to the further development of a greater us india trade and economic relations we debate these issues a great easier to work private sector to private sector a little bit harder bilaterally government to government at the multilateral level on the economic side anything that happens in that area are dr anderson whatever part of the you want to speak i was going to add to the point that basso schaffer made about the advances india is made in opening up its trade want to do with the foreign direct investment caps that used to be virtually impossible to invest in india and in fact you can see that in statistics in one thousand nine hundred there was almost no f b i in india last twenty billion dollars and in fact the bulk of that increase is come within the last three years which is substantial part of that is american there are areas such as retail trade where there are caps on that and there is domestic opposition to it but there's also significant support for this is an issue which is now being debated my guess is that over time these caps will be lifted because it's in india's interest to do so and there are important interests which benefit from it within india and the us will respond as we have been responding with foreign direct investment over the last few years  benefits of trade as a prosperous and it grows more there be more political support within india to reduce these tariffs but there's another factor that i think indian politicians especially sensitive to the greatest threat to indian security now does not come from china does not come from comes from within there's an enormous complex insurgency going on in india ranging from south india all the way to the north and up to the north it's nothing to do with outsiders it is a lot to do with the instability in equities board so i think that's a factor that politicians and bureaucrats very concerned about they don't have a strategy to deal with my own view is that good growth and equitable growth will deal with that but it's a long term process and in the meantime a huge amount of violence goes on  advisers the next step that was announced by the external affairs minister was that there would be another meeting which in effect kicks the issue down and it was also talked about as if this would be the final meeting but they have a number of final meeting over the last several months the reality is that if the communists vote against the government on any issue if they follow through with their promise to do so if india signed the india specific agreement at the i a e a which is the immediate issue at stake the government would probably fall because the leading opposition party for its own political reasons that the bar to john is a party has said that it doesn't support the agreement as presently written and would like and believe it can be rewritten somewhat in india's favor specifically on the issue of testing nuclear testing what will the prime minister do i suspect at the present time he's not quite sure what he's going to do but he's under enormous pressure because in a sense his prestige stakes this was something he pushed very hard he's talked about that  his standing in the international community and his legacy is at stake in this issue same as the made that the testing on this agreement will still be allowed nuclear testing was still be allowed  to know when the agreement doesn't mention testing and that was a decision not to do so but it doesn't mean that u s law doesn't apply which if there is testing as i understand us law then we are required to a today and to me this is just extraordinary to hear your testimony in such a positive manner the relationship of the united states and india because those of us who remember the cold war era what you're saying here today is truly the chairman relative to iran and i i believe that the iranian efforts to develop a nuclear weapon are an extraordinary threat to india it would appear to that with a land bridge to india that the threat of nuclear weapons being developed could more easily be delivered to new delhi than to washington and so i would hope that we would be working together relative to the iran pakistan natural gas pipeline and do you believe this will come to fruition is this good for the region or dora is a good again for world peace could i start  radically it would be good for india because it desperately needs energy in fact i don't think it's going to happen anytime soon and i think the reason is because the prices that the iranians want are not prices of the indians are willing to pay so this is something my guess it's quite a ways down the pike before it becomes a reality often not stated publicly but i think this is a major reason for the india is also the indians are concerned with the impact it will have on the u s the very fact that they voted with us twice in the international atomic energy agency is a sign of their concern about the impact on the u s but what's really controlling it i think is the fact that the pricing is wrong are opposed to it they do not want to be dependent on pakistan they need the energy so marginal increase in price of they get a good look ovide form rather than piped over the over go over land but i'd add a couple of other points i think that's important the indians don't see nuclear weapons  threatening they see them as having stabilize the region they see them as the equalizer with china we may see nuclear weapons nuclear theft as a scary thing but when the indian experience of going through for crises three of which were nuclear crises they've come out better off than they were before so their relations with pakistan are better now their relations with china are good they don't see nuclear weapons as a kind of evil threat or danger that we might see them i think there's a risk but i think we may have exaggerated but i do think they've underestimated the dangers of accidental and i think that there's a third factor and that is one of the israeli said about the indian indian iranian relationship publicly not much not anything as far as i can tell i think from an israeli point of view they are not quite sure what their policy is but if they're talking to the indians it's very private what they're saying privately i do not know but publicly their point is it's a big issue here but it's not an issue of not a public issue in israel and indeed see the difference when a nation having a nuclear weapon  access stored nearly dangerous that would be but a final question before the chairman is so brutal in calling my time and that is the nation of pakistan i'm glad you mentioned it what is the latest in regard to the peace process between india and pakistan particularly with the new government both countries want to neither government is strong enough to do very much with it opposition it would have an influence on the nuclear scientist has largely been brought on board by the one twenty three agreement would be delighted i don't think it would make a difference to the leftists who are the only in the last ten years they want to stop it the deal is with us if they walk out the math is the government control or the government will fall and they're going to walk out no matter what as long as where the other half of the agreement which it seems to me the other half of the agreement every everything else is just rhetoric they're walking out of there is an additional problem the major opposition party the bar to the party has increasingly for its own political reasons come out against the deal so if this were a vote that was placed in parliament which in fact the deal is the issue would be j p would probably vote against the government as well so that's the bigger issue of the communists alone in terms of the math that you referred to wouldn't be clarified or changed in any way that brings the b j p a board i don't know exactly how you do that don't have enough votes to bring the government but i think what the b j p want to something will be very difficult for us to do i think that they would want the language which was much more specific on allowing india to have the option of testing yes well that goes under the category is there anything that can be amended to change it to keep them in yes mr chairman  have another issue as well that doesn't necessarily bring them on board because everything depends on whether they think that they basically want to bring the government down because they think they're going to win the election they're al i'm going to relinquish the other half minute that i have because this wasn't even a question that i want to do and i'm going to go to mr pence and we're going to break after that oh sure you know the committee  this deal with the pipeline is sticky i think i think it's more controversy on our side as a deal breaker than it is on their side but certainly it's problematic on both sides but it also seems to me that the indians go first the discussion that we're hearing one of the quotes was it's not going to happen any time soon  is not soothing the american politicians if we're going to enter into a marriage with the indians over this and in taking the vows when you get to the pod whether or not you get to be faithful and the answer is i'm not going to be unfaithful any time soon i think that indicates a problem i'd be happy t legislation courage strong action further economic sanctions against iran it has been widely misinterpreted in some quarters but it is very much in harmony with action taken by the european union recently i want to acknowledge that india's vote against iran in the despite what appeared to be its own public's opposition to that vote but  i want to associate myself strongly with the chairman's comments and phrase it as a question about what you know it is i think the almost unanimous opinion of this subcommittee  n the overwhelming community's congress that we are further isolating iran economically and india's engagement of potential engagement and with regard to this pipeline since precisely the opposite i think their strongest backer among the current five is probably russia have formal support from britain and france but not much in the present administration i think basically doesn't want to enlarge the council of india is something that they very much want it would be a sign of respect for them and their arrival as a great power in the world and i think we should push it ourselves i know there are structural reasons but that doesn't mean we can't push it on the civil nuclear deal that was structural reasons too and we advocate for the indian government but trying to interpret it as best i can i think they feel that if the conditions are right to go to such an agreement on a pipeline to go through economic agreement has to benefit both sides but i also think that india philosophically out of step with us on this question in the sense  well and so we could do something about that we could press markets done to lift its restrictions on india and i'm surprised that i know we say it's a good thing but we really i think we have something to gain and on this we in there their primary there's no clear way out for us but in the case of india in iran i think there's a balance of of benefit and harm which probably comes out on the side of the pipeline and i don't think the pipeline will be built in any