would like to leave to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all council to find out if that still is of interest and if you do what topics they might like to retreat about ok the oh no the letter of support for yeah i read that today and i thought you haven't talked about that yet ok the legislature seems to relating to possible legal claims involving the city usa within the council make a specific finding of premature general public knowledge of confidential attorney playing communications may for the purpose of providing professional legal services to the council regarding possibl all right i would like to call back in to order the self growing tin city council meeting tuesday feb one thousand and nineteen and we've been to number five comments or questions from the public see some of that reflected in this week's paper bring out the vote positively for the one percent local options tax and you know and and she was interested in my my reaction has the foundation i think i copied this to you guys that you know i see that the foundation's role really comes after traditional financing has been left after plans in place after there's a design when the time comes in the things and got got more momentum and i think that's that's really all there is to report i think i worded it reasonably ok in what you guys read and i just said we'll you know keep our fingers crossed and see what the vote us because we've got two members of the foundation anyway dan o'rourke and mike and john baker who are adamantly opposed to any more taxes period you know and dan o'rourke comments were i didn't realize this was a roll of the foundation and i send it back and said that really it's really not i just tried to clarify i was getting a little fuzzy there it's you know we'll see where we go with this and you know if the voters say yes well then things will you know maybe we can pick up a little speed and get and get closer to a final plan and financing package and we still got to get olson and then lives in my neighborhood linda norris and one or two others people who are people who are enthusiastic about recreation in the city and want to and recognize the desperate need for internal recreation space interestingly total sideline i'll share with you in my entrepreneurship class the students have to develop business plans i got me duncan in in that class and so what he wants to do is build an indoor recreation facility focused on basketball obviously to get youth morning age to ask a ball in the sky and with their great presentation in class today they said we're not sure how much it's going to cost well what they presented with no help from me at all was region in this area and it's desperately needed so i mean somehow some way we're going to pay for this whether it's whether it's this way or we have to find something else but we have a library foundation that was developed similarly exhibition to the public right and on the second day on the thursday and i just randomly stopped at this company where they do design build for industrial applications and they had done a couple of breweries and he was going through a slide show and i said stop because there was a guy willing in their shop and i go do you get people to weld new employees he just held his hand the head is that hands and said we can't get people to weld we need employees that know how to well so i had heard a story from a friend at work about their son going through the burlington tech center of other information about programs within the state trying to get kids on that track early enough right now and get them into that program and then the businesses that have hooks into those kids to pull them along further when they graduate right and so so i spent probably half an hour in the shop with bob cooley our who's the head teacher there and got some demos and some of the stuff it was it was really cool and then with this a welder made what's a average salary for a welder i don't know but i think it's pretty to address so i thought that was helpful for me because i think encouraging because i suspect that will be his legal counsel when he discusses this with the school board and i think that is helpful to finding a resolution sooner rather than later find a way so i think you know we keep chatting i also met  weinger and we have we meet every two months kind of and we talk about airport issues and the so he's interested they're working on this survey was an internal survey and it is no burlington isn't that they will not be in favor but he does seem more amenable to discussing further some better way for you ski and south burlington to be involved in some of the decision making with the airport because i did note to him and he's been on the airport  there really is it's more rubberstamp if it's we do discuss things and you can raise issues and they're very good about asking me about what are the south burlington issues and we  have we have on the agenda for tomorrow the both the taxes but you know there really isn't any power to do anything differently me sort of agree with that and thought that potentially there's an opportunity to change that not to go back to the way it used to be with a standing commission that had a lot of power like the police commission in burlington they had a whole commission form of government and they became little fiefdoms in a way but so i'm i'm hoping that we can arrive at something and maybe submitting the maid to submitting her legislation has really gotten their attention so i'm and they can't see that well it's interesting because from my perspective i had suggested that maybe several counts or some self burlington could meet with several councillors from new ski and several councillors from burlington to sort of discuss some of these issues from our own perspective to g understand the council members in burlington because i don't think they pay much attention to it because they don't need to it's just kind of a report that comes in you know jeans doing a good job and you know landings are up  revenues are up so it's not in the of the financial place it was ten years ago  all easier for them if they just you know regional don't actually make any money you know they can't take money out if it they can get some indirect that pays for the legal and the police and that kind of stuff sure but it was regional they wouldn't be paying for that so they really have no no solid ground to stand on well they do have  financial liability i guess so several you know ten years ago many when it was they were really having trouble financially burlington would have been on the totally lost argument and perhaps we some some changes can be made that really at least incorporate the cities that and i've been told and i guess i just have to believe it that you information the f a a needed some additional information from the airport and i think the air force as well and then they had to shut down the government shutdown so they couldn't complete the study so now they're back up hopefully there won't be another shutdown and they're estimating april so we'll see you know limo yes that was wonderful yeah so meghan and i and kevin met with linda mcginness who i guess in a prior life she was on the world bank and lived all of the i c was really something that meghan really pushed and prodded wrote in her brain about what are some of the questions what are the things to be thinking about to incorporate in that study so that it would be meaningful and she was just a fountain of information and apparently u t m and with his  name state i don't remember his name well anyway there's a there's a professor at u v m and there's like a whole team of them who did a report for the state that looked at general genuine progress yes a genuine progress indicator indicator and statewide and she thought that that could be the basis of some of our work and communities if not the only one in the state who is experiencing growth and looking to manage development versus have we got open space for so it was just very exciting doing anything else and i think that yeah yeah you know she was she was wonderful and she's also willing to you know help us a little bit she won't do the study because she is overwhelmed but i think she agreed to maybe look at the r if he as we develop it to get some feedback and to make sure that we really or including everything financial pluses for having open space and in terms of wastewater management or storm water management the ecology of the community if there are lots of indicators in different that have been developed i guess by academics that really can help us say quantify this really is positive buyers who are eager to find an area where they can have access to open space and all income levels right but she said it's important for us to think about the place for the high and homes that we have in our community because and what that value is based on and if it is based on being you know backing up on an open space area we have to think about that as an asset to the community so that was also something that she really that she really focused on and she said you know she might not the adjacent field just a few blocks away she sees that open field as a as an asset that she can write take advantage of so she may not be paying the same rates but she's you know her faith so the raid her taxes do reflect you a flak that proximity to that area so she said it's also with regard to the tax i reached out to colonel smith of the air national guard about having him come in and update us on the p f away issues as as you had discussed a meeting or so ago and it looks like your meeting on march eighteenth title director at yeah at the airport because when they were doing all that building this summer they did build some huge catchment systems you know to  read it i think it could be related it would be good to know if it is if they think that's the solution and there's been built or if it's not the solution it's something else we'll try and get  week i met with our dispatch team just to update them on where the regional dispatch efforts stands and to get feedback we've replaced the initial consult on with another consultant from the same company batched team feedback or the dispatch team is still struggling trying to understand why we should be doing this they also had some very good input as to how  not have a good rapport with them it was leave it at that and so we asked that a new dispatcher or a new consultant come in and actually two of them will will now take on the project including one person who spent a career in dispatch council coming out of that meeting about the future of bike share in south burlington joint meeting with the school board the night before i mean i so on the fourth in all likelihood will be meeting over at the total middle school cafeteria as you have in years past and that will be a budget briefing and then  there's been a candidate forum in the past afterwards i don't know where that stands i mean i don't it's kind of been a drug just nobody really i can i can reach out to events if you want to do it but  statement you know project that you think are the issues that kind of stuff you can do that are happens fairly well i think we schedule we could schedule that as part of the agenda we would have our city meeting in town about the budget and then adjourn and then you guys could each have five minutes and i mean i don't even know so we'll just make sure that's part of the agenda it won't be a debate i don't think it's just a sea of five minutes to if you want want more we can probably structure more yeah you short on people they need to do something drastic in order to maintain coverage you know because there's somebody ambulance service just went out of business because they just don't have enough people or money and so i think this is another one of those minutes i'll just very briefly seventeen met tomorrow is is where they call it legislative day for non profits they'll be there they actually are going to ask the  as an entire group not just channel seventeen the legislature for a small amount of money i'm cast funding that funds all of the  access television across the state has gone down because it's related to subscribers and people are using netflix and other things and not buying cable so that dollar figure has gone down so everyone is in a financial quandary so they're looking for their own ask so actually they're not asking for money they're going to ask for a summer study and  really think about so how else can we have public access if funding from comcast isn't there to support it to the extent and how important it is that  for working on some really fun ways to raise money to make up the deficit and well we have several hundred thousand dollars in the vermont community foundation but we had to withdraw sixty thousand last year to two to do some infrastructure issues that we needed to do so it was an operating budget but it was the  capital improvement that is important you know we can go so many times to sixty thousand dollars and then perfects all gone so we're looking at ways to really make a case for more public support and one of the ways they've been barked on that i think it's been pretty successful and will continue to build on it is to really improve and make more meaningful and helpful to the public some of the candidates forums and some of the issues that are before the public so the public can use that as a way to become informed on a lot of the issues and not just have a candidates debate because i think  mean just looking nationally and some of the issues around the media it's really important in this seems to be becoming more and more important to have a place where people can go and really get the information that they need if you aren't you know willing to settle for facebook twitter all those kinds of ways of receiving information so our kind of categories priority prioritizing categories for analyzing or assessing the value of land of open space and so we're going to be pulling those responses  meeting tomorrow which is tomorrow night at seven o'clock here in city hall and it's it's a great group of people i don't we don't have anything yet to report we're just now in the building stages trying to put together eight consented genda i would entertain a motion to in the minutes of january seventh and january twenty eighth second ok any further discussion or a discussion all in favor that the financial condition city improved as an eighteen from two thousand seven hundred eighteen by about forty thousand dollars u s north to a little more than one point four million dollars of balance or surplus you know as as we know it and it's not a lot but it's an improvement for sure you know based on a twenty three million dollars general operating actually twenty four ish million dollar general operating budget we'd like to see it thirty sixty ninety days you know of that of that and to put it in south burlington terms somewhere around one point two scuse me two point four four point six six point eight million dollars in that range lowest to highest know a lot of accuracy and when you're running a twenty three million dollars budget there's not a lot of room for error and i think that for the past three or four years that we you know been part of these budgets they've been tight you know you've are turned you know some money back to the bottom line which i think is really why you've been able to maintain your financial condition so improvement you know is the way that i would do anything helps you know certainly in this day and age some some talking points under projection there was a couple of charges for service i think in the highway department and police department for what you had budgeted originally they came in under under budget another talking point would be or recreation department  dollars and certainly you guys are aware of that there's a plan to come out of that we support it we certainly had a lot of conversations with tom and sue you know this past year about you know how you know what their plan was how to address it except for and i think it's something that's closely being monitored and we'll continue to look at it you know but for now i think that it's the right place and certainly the right time and i think there's plenty of opportunities to bring that out of the whole i just don't think it's going to happen all in one year i think it's going to take a plan of three to five years you know that they they have in place so you're to if wasn't a full blown swing this past year one of the new things that you'll see i believe was about the five five million dollar issuance you know that you had for your bond proceeds that you came in here to fund the development of that basically stats the clock ticking by vermont law or your completion and except you know on that project that certainly something that we had to take a long look at in the states got like an eight page compliance supplement where we look at the valuations the sheltered values and you know and things like that you are well within compliance you know certainly certainly of that so  say that that's probably the biggest highlight financially you know out of out of this document and certainly when we were first involved they always going to tell that story is that there were some financial l and dark days you know for the city of salisbury with and you've been able to maintain and i think that's a very positive thing and the one thing that i'll say about this city is it's a busy city for what i under happen post july  first you're going to busier you know for sure and i think that that's all good things an opportunity for the city of south burlington and everybody in it so and i am confident that you have the management and the the understanding of what everybody does in that chair in their chairs respectively to give you good business information so you can make good business decisions so there were some best practice matters that we issued to you in a management letter that some other things as a dental that we talk to tom and sue you know about some things that i don't think are anything major just just incidental things to take care of and cleaned up and a lot of them have been already sales tax things like that  purchase orders are being addressed as we speak you know there are some there is there can be some better best practices there for sure but there are no particular order to the letter that we had a lot of your departments for project cost you know a lot of the billing and a lot of the arithmetic you know that comes out you know those departments to submit to whether be the respective state agency to get reimbursed by the city the finance department is disconnected from that process and and when we talk to tom and soon they're well aware that there needs to be more connection there because as a longer delay for you guys getting paid is the best way i can see it you know so so i think if the finance departments involved you know in that and i don't think it's anything malicious i think it's i mean your department heads are busy you know for sure and i think it's a function of time and i think that in talking with tom and sue about it i think this him easy fixes and i think that the you know the fun and it involved i think connected you know  your repayment you know of the money that you're putting into some of these projects you know for sure budgets there there are budgets put together and the one that stands out to my mind you know the first is the paving budget you know from an outsider looking in and i don't want to minimize you know the public works department for sure and that's not the intent of it but from an outsider look at them you know we just question the process as far as what's being budgeted for paving how it's being spent but more importantly some of the volume of the money that's being carried over from year to year you know for whatever reason that these projects aren't getting done maybe the priority list has changed except and if it wasn't such a big number it could be as much as seven hundred thousand dollars you know that gets cared for there are that the conversation and it would have risen to the fact that i'm sitting here talking about it but in talking to tom and sue i think that they're aware of it i think you're aware of it you know and that's something that i certainly think can be better practiced you know with better budgeting and if it's the fact you know that it's a project that gets delayed then there should be some process in place that allows you to to delay that and put a number on that where everybody knows and and it just looks like the process could be better and i think that that's something that we continue to work with you all on on you know just being a sounding board on how you can do that process and and i would argue the same for storm water you know as well that's been a busy you know department as well and i would say the same for that too so so sort of layman's terms if you want to use the dollar figure for the paving is what you're saying in terms of the public understanding that it's that seven hundred thousand dollars that was not spent you know if one eighteen  had been earmarked for x y and z and for these reasons it was not expended the patient is that it will be the next year is that the kind of correct and sometimes it was taking up to two years to do those projects and that's where to me that project's task to lose a little bit of its clarity to the point where i understand some these projects that reply or ties to you know so and there's nothing wrong with that but when you're talking that kind of a volume of numbers and again i don't think  concerned as the out look at timing i mean you're the flavor of the identity it's kind of getting lost the further removed of the priority when you said it was going to be done and the budget year the further that goes beyond that budget year the more problems and constraints it can cause on a future budget you know especially if the priorities change you know that on spent money might not go to what it was a originally intended for because it may get reprivatize to and i think that you've got to get really closer to the how much and more importantly when it's going to happen and we understand there's active acts of god and you know delays whether be contractors price of you know price of things and all that but then for the past few years that we've noticed significant  that's been carried over and again nothing that we believe to be malicious just more of i think how you're budgeting and how you're prioritizing your projects and the timing of when they're actually happening so one year isn't as much of a concern but when you get into two and three it could be one year  year to that project falls off yeah i think that i would certainly raise my hand and say that could be problematic you know and i think that we saw at least a few cases of that so and so that just so i'm clear if a new project if the public is told will reprice or it ties in because of an act of god or whatever it is then that provides the clarity in the i don't know financial i think it does and the reason why you're dining a project to seven hundred thousand dollars and to me that's what it's all about if you're going to you know not spend seven hundred thousand dollars that you would yeah i think it's important you know that the closer you get removed from the end of the year that that priority d list be attached to that number is what i'm saying well is also the fact that when it comes to transportation and roads and pavin that the impact of weather and you know if there's if the weather is crappy and they get behind and then the contractors are all trying to make up time you know contractors are going to say to somebody we're just not going to get your project this year we can't do it because there are a limited number of contractors that do the do the work so you know when it comes to paving you do have weather and contractor and supply actors and also as you say the price of materials fluctuate you know if you see the price of materials gee it's likely to be expressed a ten percent lower six months from now well and we're talking a lot of money well then maybe we wait and so there's just a lot of pieces that go into control things that can't be controlled but i also want to look on the cities question i have i mean since he talked about two things how's under public works here the paving budget and stormwater it is how are these things that require perhaps more manpower to get things done or is that not the issue i think part of what was done with the was that in justin's mind it wasn't a big deal to carry it over because he created some efficiencies where we actually get more done with a two year contract and i shared with ron points well taken no i i explained to ron and i want to make sure they represented the point of the council correctly is justin came in last and we question him about it because i know as city manager managements we get a lot of calls that year about i haven't seen a truck on the road all year paving the road to where we are going on and correct me if i'm wrong but i think the decision was made that the council wanted to see just and submit those bids on a yearly basis and have the bidding process done so that we could get the trucks out there as soon as the plant opens up in the spring so moving forward that's the intent from council to public works to make sure that it's done on a yearly basis even though we might not be getting as much done we're getting something done every year and those projects are listed in terms of what's going on again only certain that we bring up as the further removed that it gets from the end of the year the question isn't what point in time it was a priority you know than what you prioritize ation now you know as far as that goes because you've got seven hundred thousand dollars with you know what is it now one point nine and two million dollars and it looks like it's been a pretty constant number in for it sounds like for many reasons you know for sure mother nature you know being one of them you know and maybe just understanding you know better you know now but but i'll think against nothing nothing absolute no knock whatsoever you know clearly on the people that are involved in the process just more of outsiders looking in say and you know for the past few years the numbers have been constant and big so i do think the council was surprised at that in a timely way and i can remember the conversation so it rise to me or any of the things in them and you know and that just tells you that things are working here you know and i think that that's a valid ation of not only the process but the people that giving used can make business decisions based on that information it just tells me it's working so i prefer you bring it up because i think it points out that we need to have our thirty years the longer you get removed from the end of the year you know and those products maybe something else comes in and takes a priority so that takes a backseat and actually ends up costing you more down the road i mean there's so much economic fear the fact that we're having this conversation and that you are you know about it i think is nothing but positive are there any other questions people have a bit about the salaries and there was an issue with payroll yeah and i recall that it was discussed at length you know and i actually even think it came up you know when i was here you know last time just in a different matter but i believe you know if my recollection serves me that we did a separate letter on that and i believe that there was many conversations that happened in our actual and a lot of it went on to go back to two thousand and sevent previous seventeen and we found one you know in our test you know that where there was a miscalculated check so clearly improvement we certainly had that conversation with you all we're confident that there's a lot of the whole process has changed you know so i think that and why do i know because when we interviewed to do the audit again with that very question came up for sure you know back in i would say may you know so so i am confident that you all knew i'm confident that your management has changed its process to the point where it's got you know that process sitting in chairs now that it wasn't sitting before and there's other things clearly that happened to you know as well to remedy the problem but yeah i know as a conversation but i actually believe it got better in two thousand and eight or so ok item ten consider and possibly adopt rules of procedure for performing development review under the interim by laws and a mandate paul obviously is busy of stairs so right just that added sentence at the very end up just to be clear that if there are any the last time the city council of the city adopted by a lot there was some rules of procedure adopted but it was just whatever the d or b had in effect at that time and so just to be clear this is  the rules of for conflicts of interest that apply to all appointed elected officials so this is these proposed rules basically just focus on the procedure and end of a particular meeting a hearing in a meeting excuse me then you may decide that you want to continue the hearing or close it and at that point it's it's always best i think to have a written decision draft in front of you before you press go forward to make a decision because once you actually sit down and start putting something down in writing then all  e sudden oh what about this condition or what about this argument with so it's it's easiest to have something in writing and then if there's something you want to add or or change then and often before then but they then have that time period to deliberate which you know essentially when you are reviewing didn't land development you're a panel of judges and so you have the ability to basically discuss the reasons for and against whatever decision you want to make after you've closed the hearing within the hearing but generally it's it's after you've heard all the other so i do have one question and yes you had said that the chair could determine whether an ad a state visit was required before setting a hearing and so i'm just curious about the process for turning in than it is state visit or not i mean it can depend on the facts of the application if there's i mean the the main purpose of site visits is to provide context because again it's outside of the public hearing process because there's nothing recording that's the main thing there's there's no body taking minutes or recording  and so in my experience with the environmental court the judge has often said something to the effect of you know pretend i'm a video camera and point me what you want me to look at things look different out right there but every what step of the way do we call for a side visit the hearing can still be open our would it be before we render a decision or before generally actually probably before your meeting would start because then it can be on your agenda so i've only attended one or two d r v meetings in my life and that was years ago so i really don't have even you know a vague idea of how you know the process works but i mean step by step over all i have a pretty good idea but step by step we see a preliminary drawing we see then a week or two later more specifically detailed drawing before how detailed the drawing do we see before we render a decision i think it depends if i remember correctly and the planning and zoning department has been requiring adam minimum what has to be submitted  for will definitely for sketch sketch plan review level and i'm trying to remember if they come to us to its plans do not but i'm just saying to the the information that's required for sketch  so it it depends on the application for the most part but if something comes before the council and there is a piece of information that you want or more detail that you want then i mean that d or b it is not at all uncommon for the d or b to continue a hearing while plans are updated or off from the board so that that's very possible if if there's information that the council wants then you can continue the public hearing until and give the applicant the opportunity submit complete application for plumeri plat review that had been submitted on our after our leave it was october twenty fifth so no sketch doesn't require review by the city council under the inner violence but it's pretty much every yeah so the purpose of the public hearing is to on the record give the applicant a chance to basically present their application and for  the the counsel to ask questions and for and also for the counsel to take any public comments that that may arise essentially to to really delve into the details of the application keeping in mind that under the interim bylaws certain types of development if they're coming before you then they are prohibited under the interim by law and the question for the council to determine is whether the proposed land development is something that you can allow despite the fact that it has been prevented and then you conduct the well while you and the other committees can conduct studies and attempt to prepare more permanent bylaws so that's the purpose it so if there are aside from just the details of the application which is kind of the beginning the next question then is ok will what how does this is this something one that we think will fit going forward with the permit bylaws that we think that may be ultimately adopted and then and how does it fit within the criteria does it does it have any adverse impact on them or is it consistent with those criteria and that's again that's where deliberations i think can be very helpful because then you can work out the details of of the decision right and having it right front if you go back to question a scope because it goes before the d r p too right under the land development regulations and if it so if it's a subdivision they're looking at it under the subdivision review criteria in article fifteen of the land development regulations and and they're trying to determine for the most part compliance with the land evolving regulations and whether the project is you know appropriate for the site so those are slightly different criteria than what you are looking at it under you are looking at it in terms of well we prohibited this because we wanted to call a halt while we conducted studies but with regard to this specific application is this something that that we think is acceptable and so that the standards of the i would say that the does not have quite as much discretion as the council does but nonetheless the to the extent that the council decides to allow land development that's prohibited you still have to consider the proposal with respect to those criteria so even if you want to allow something that has to to meet be consistent with these criteria  office or can grant a zoning permit they have an application that is prohibited under the interim bylaws has to get whatever approvals are needed under the land development regulations and whatever and in approval from the city council under the have an approval under both and so if they don't get approval from the derby but they do from the city council then they're not going to get on land excuse me they're not going to get a zoning permit and there are looking there are other impacts going forward but just for purposes of what happens with that particular application if they don't like a decision they can appeal it is that clear for people so we have certain criteria that will be thinking about in terms of the impact of a development on what we believe might be the outcomes of the interim zoning and if it's in conflict then we might say no you need to wait or we can say you know this is fits in and it would nothing would presumably change to that sort of the rules of procedure as the two amended signify by saying hi hi hi ok so these are adopted and in place thank you oh thank you great ok you're adopted so let's see we have so we need a motion to open a public hearing on proposed amendment to the interim bylaws to quote approximately fifteen point four dish and acres of land in the exempt areas to which the interim by laws do not apply so second ok so this is the proposed amendments to the interim bylaws which are really proposed amendment to the interim zoning map to add two parcels and so those are the two personals and essentially if they are added to the areas considered exempt then the interim bylaws would not apply to to those two parcels as along with all the other areas  cross are there any questions are there comments there's no questions are there any comments from the public regard ok so can we vote on this or do we have to wait we have to vote to close and then we have to reopen for the next issue because we have first to close the hearing i hearing is closed and we can have our deliberations in public this is not really need to have delivery no this isn't on a particular application this is on the triangle and the little blue square right now we need to move on to well item c appointed but she also discussed him we now have it application from telly lord kelly you're here yes she's not here ok kelly has been come to every our committee members to take things in their own self interest right as others would were they owned land that was potential had potential t d r s and then sold the land but divorced off the t d r s to maintain that ownership apart from the land so it's another twist you can do that oh interesting ok so she's not here to interview but my understanding is she's gotten pretty high marks from everyone who's been on the at those meetings and is interested in i think from my perspective brings a a perspective and some knowledge that would be helpful for a sort of full discussion certainly in clude her as well i've had a couple discussions with michael and with monica and with jessica the sense was you with you the sense was bringing in someone brand new to fill out the committee at this point since you've had a fair amount of meetings might be set you back because you get a new winter subdivided two acre parcel developed with a single family dwelling into four lots ranging in size from point two seven acres to one point eighteen acres and to construct a new single family dwelling on each of the resulting undeveloped lots at fourteen twenty i'm sure we need to open a public hearing for this move that application one thousand one so you will present this very good i'm dave marshall from civil engineering associates representing lois and donald yeah so i have to remind all present that the proceeding will be conducted in an orderly manner and make copies of these rules vailable so if someone wants the rules i guess we can give you a  copy are there any disclosure of conflicts of interest including any ex parte communications the definition of an interested person find that demonstrate they are there any interested persons in the audience so only an interested person who's participated in this proceeding can make me take an appeal of any decision on this matter so you've identified yours see raise your right hand by both i hereby swear is that the evidence i have given the cause under consideration the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god i do thank you going to be projects that we're at the city councils concerned about impacts on public infrastructure or the natural resources have been or would possibly be in conflict with ultimately what the city council or the city itself would deem to be acceptable policies moving forward so in this particular case we have an applicant that owns a two acre parcel in a developed portion of the city  s they proposed subdivision would utilize existing infrastructure there would be any new infrastructure that would have to be constructed and also has a very limited amount of area  councils areas of concern as outlined in its entries owning that being the background in the application package is a plan that shows the character of the area and that's what you see down here i'm sorry that i can turn it around for the viewing audience at home and feel like but nonetheless one thing that when you look at this particular project it's essentially an insult of the develop and the character of the neighborhood of rhonda the application has narrative that talks about each one of the areas of concern that were expressed by the city council in creating the interim zoning by law  and that being in the background happy to go through each one of the two basically provide a better understanding for the city council members as far as how this particular project we think has minimal impact and in a perfect room the cohens would live like to be able to afford before the review board for demonstrate compliance with land development regulations but the first thing we need to do is have this owning that was instituted by the city where there were a number of projects that were allowed to proceed some of them with conditions of approval that would allow the city council to feel more comfortable that ultimately those projects would be closest store closer to the envisioned changes in public policy and implementation of the rules or some projects that just didn't trigger those particular concerns and hence had a limited number of conditions going for give those kudos to you either that's fine but nonetheless we're here to basically help the narrative in discussion of this particular application and we will kind of do a back and forth as far as questions that come up during each one of the items so that we can all at least fully understand what the applications about and allow you to make your decision moving forward so as i read through all houses where these objections are concerned are coming from and you know which one you just perfectly answered so i'm going to do two things i'm going to basically point to the plan that is in your application proceed in a manner that balances the issues of both public health welfare and safety of the community as well as well some left of the rights of the out in itself so we see many of the concerns that were outlined in the two letters as being the type of things that would be hashed out but as far as you know screening along property lines and retention of existing  vegetation not to say that we can't have that same discussion with yourselves as part of the process of understanding how to recognize what the character of the project is and how more specifically i think in the bigger picture is how can we shape the application in a way that again tries to adopt the concepts that the city council have or to address the concerns of city council had when it came to dealing with open space natural resource areas the forested areas talks about public infrastructure in the concerns of department heads in regards to the ability of the city to absorb additional pressure  trying to maintain so the good news about the application is that at least on the public works end of things of course that's very close to me i'm civil engineer is that it relies upon it but sorry existing and when we basically are not creating new infrastructure the city has to take over but actually can create new pain users for example example the existing sources them when you can get more people paying quarterly feeds for the use of their sewer or buying into the allocations that are necessary you basically have new resources coming into the city but no new expenses other than ultimately the treatment plan for treating the additional gallons per day so that's a very positive and their policy is if there's a way to avoid a direct actors on one sixteen then that's the way to that's where they want you to go so that again the intent there is there in the job of basically moving traffic high levels and in this particular case putting additional curb cuts on one sixteen kind of runs in conflict to that particular public policy here the application is proposing to basically have these particular homes for two  and the particular access policy the one very interesting component is that there is municipal sewer available in this particular neighborhood but there's no public water and there's no public water because it's too high in elevation the water department cannot provide adequate pressure within six existing infrastructure and therefore most that most all the while all the homes have a certain elevation hi all are all served by private wells and that's also one of the questions from one of the property owners that is gee we have three new wells or at least one new well in three people pulling water out of the aquifer what does that mean as far as we're concerned there could be about their own supply and that's an issue with that the state of vermont when you're doing what's called water's wastewater system and potable water supply permit application is you need to demonstrate that the your project will not have an undue impact on the water of the apple for in the area so that just ask you or the other the  current winson williamson are they all on will says well i can't speak personally or of personal knowledge as far as the two people on either side all i can say is that once you get above a certain elevation in the water system and the project would actually remove that on site waste water system or at least discontinue it in favor of connection to the municipal system that is that is the benefit and that's always isolation distances need to be achieved between a well in the on site wastewater system and that's basically to make sure that there aren't cross contamination issues and in order to adopt both of those in a design it challenges the public policy of the density that is allowed in this particular zone district what i'm getting at is that with the availability of municipal sewer it eliminates those particular conflicts between what's necessary from a public health standpoint and what is identified in the can be comprehensive plan as being a pool of the city full development of dense areas of the city yeah yeah it does when it goes uber good point and it's an optical illusion i drive by that every day when i go to work and you just doesn't strike you as being slightly higher but it's enough  down the street goes south you know there's three others that is a very similar development that is fairly recent probably when you're on the d or b now it's further  north so i'm just trying to remember but if this is the first time ever that ok and the three homes that are to the south they've been there for three years right it is are there other questions you know just what do we need to do the only point i would make i guess is when i read those letters it seemed like what both of these property owners north and south most concerned about is is screen is is what you know and one mention water table but i think you just responded to that so you know i there always compromises and i would suppose one compromise would be that if this proposal is approved and it includes the appropriate screening on the north and south sides which is basically just handing over trees as suggested and course that works in the summer and the property owners north and south in my mind it doesn't fit you know it within our in terms owning and within our long term planning it seems to be something that that wouldn't necessarily be a subject of the results of the interim knowing and and probably well it can be allowed to work forward through the planning this working  firstly to complete p u d s which is exactly what this is and i don't know i mean i can remember the pictures and they were a little bit different and it pending on where in the city they were being built but i do not know if this would undermine what they are in visioning for p e d s in this part of the  city i certainly think the three houses a little bit south of are so similar that it might be in keeping but i don't really know and that's my only has it and we've asked them to really fast track that it's not one of the elements of interim zoning but in our conversations it certainly was something that they were working on that would some of the open space decisions that we made well you know i so i just put it out there is i mean i don't i don't know if this if they would look at this and say wait a minute  get what did you do to us we have worth our while then just to check in with the planning commission and continue this at a future meeting i've been looking at the maps i see nothing that stands out to me in terms of our work in the a committee that will put up a red flag for me so but i hear you when you but i think they asked them to come out right this conference of peace plan and i just don't know how we don't want to ask them to do two acre property and it's not one of these nine home developments that just saw back to fifty eight under the wire you know but what interests me in this is that if you look at the rest the properties on there that aren't developed their problem i mean the rest of the street could go that direction someday in a piecemeal fashion i mean there might be other lane owners that want to be with this see this and obviously the first three of gone in this is the next three and goals of a p d would be interims of you know having open space for the requirements right so that that's my only concern i mean i would feel a little more comfortable if we could at least run this by the planning commission to find out if this sort of which of those p g categories there were tight think there for one or maybe six i can't remember that this sort of it here is two and does that make sense i mean i mean because that's the whole point they didn't want to have stuff like piecemeal just one other question all that land is to the  when you're concerned you want to talk to the playing commission but this is one of those things where this street you know there was resistance to the first three homes if i remember because it changed the nature of the street the street was you know single family home sit back very far from this from the roof and and this is happened in other neighborhoods too we're learning or what's have been so divided into smaller homes but sometimes that kind of densities is good you know way well between zwick street and an allen road there's a whole bunch of houses that have been tucked in behind their houses that obviously were part of a larger lot that was then you know and those all had had driveways gone down to them  this isn't something unusual at all it's just you know it's just your concern is well yes we've task them and they've spent a lot of time trying to have a comprehensive view of how you conduct infill in the city in what's appropriate i just think that would be sort of a courteous thing to do because it is really part of our  terrorists in a similar manner to what we want to do your screening question that's already in progress to solve flying is pretty d yeah yeah yeah i drive by there a lot as i live on heinsberg road so yeah so that is that's a couple of years old so in terms of  ok so there's no sidewalk on highland terrace today right but if enough housing homes are built in this fashion right there may come up when the residents there  row didn't have sidewalks right and the city had a plan to put american tashi i think the macintosh said no we don't want him so they gave them to meadow and that's how we got them and in actually that turned out to be a good thing because you know a middle rows was one of the busiest intent was when we asked the planning commission to to do this comprehensive book they come back  and this is not something that we're concerned about then are we with appropriate screening in response to the neighbors concerns are we ok with that i mean from my perspective i think if the answer is this isn't this isn't within the parameters of what we can close today because we have to do it the planning commission right we will get together all the evidence first before we close the hearing and i think what what what what i'm hearing and what our experience basically said is that we'll continue the hearing to a date certain using man's tour and the request of the city council that it be as soon as possible that if we can hear back from the planning commission you know from their meeting next week as far as again whether or not this particular type of project falls within the radar outside of what they're trying to focus on of regards to play new developments of maintenance of open space and things of that nature then at least we can complete the record and allow the city council to make an informed decision do it to march eighteenth because march fifth their fourth rather it is the only town meeting and we don't really do this kind of thing although you know if the planning commission says we're not concerned about it we could take a minute then to do i that whole area to i don't know ten or twenty houses originally it ended up as being one acre lots one hundred feet frontage anything significant the only other thing i just i'm sure mr clinton realizes that if we get back to the planning commission this is this fits within the parameters of what they have the great concerns about i'm not sure we're in a position where we would decide time to argue with them on that in other words i personally don't see a concern about it but if they do they're the ones that are doing the work understand that  all right i would like to call back to order the cell frontin city council meeting of today february nineteenth twenty one thousand and we will continue with item twelve which is a report from the bike community who's attending all of our meetings not a member of the committee but been very active with us nick anderson like flash policy recommendations like to have you look at tonight and we also wanted to give you an update on where all that work that you guys did with us last summer where it's taken us and what steps are right and i think you have thirty minutes on the board are you just are not yet we will try to keep it to  thirty months i guess so we won't nice nationally go through the whole mission unless people want us to just to point out though that we do support the plan in trying to sustainability that bicycling and pedestrians add as far as the comprehensive plan in reducing energy consumption citywide  so safety of our bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure is pretty much our number one goal and job and the committee examples of how the committee does that with the need of fog line striping in a priority order the committee has also recently started providing the d p w with listings of recreation path maintenance needs of with locations on the back on the path system needing repaving crack filler etc the committee is providing locations where when we find malfunctioning r f b and cross walks needing painting and we are also working with the planning department on street type standards to help improve the safety of our local like the one that happened on burlington north avenue earlier this year or actually late eighteen the trend for pedestrian fatalities is  been going up since two thousand and nine up thirty five percent and so trying to make our facilities as safe as possible is important ok so we do have some recommendations that we'd like to make and hope you know you ask questions and you know if you have them and we you know look for you to adopt these as policies hopefully  when there are two lights facing each direction and so that people specially when they're making turns can see those lights easier and also if one light burns out the other light is still working so now the city it was one of the early adopters for these such these lights and so it wasn't standard operation to do that when they were first put in  and most towns if you were to go any town in chiton in county you would see that they have two lights facing each way shelburne burlington except or a none of ours do bars do so to sixty thousand and the city has not wanted to do it over the last three years because of the cost i mean it's just no no source of money for something that's already there but now that we have the penny for path we would like to move forward with that safety we're looking into that although if you look at this picture down here on the lower right some of the newer lights do have a verification signal so that pedestrians know that it's actually not working or whether it is working because i've been like sometimes you can't see you have it you can't see it i mean i run from old cross across to no one farm and i push that button and that's lights been out for three put the batteries to make a more that was the some of the issue with the cold temperatures in the past we still have some that do that but there's been a lot less this year at least as far as i've noticed here right right now up that swift in dorset we have such lights where the pedestrian or the bicyclists actually push the button and traffic stops and they go on then the person can cross safely we have power there we used to have an r p and i'll show you the next slide but that was removed because well let me add weight to the next slide on that the c c r p c did scope the the intersection this past summer and they base came to the conclusion that wait time would not measurably increase for cars there if such a light were put in a pedestrian controlled light so we feel pretty good about it justin was going to do it the d p w was going to do it in november it ended up snowing early and didn't get done a supposed to be a priority in the spring but he said that he always gets special projects so i just think it's it's a safety issue with her think since it's a safety issue it should get done as a p r so at that intersection this is when there was an r f d that it was removed by the d p w because they felt that people rave reply relying on it and the people that were turning  right not when the sign was not no right on red but when they were just making a right on red they couldn't see this light and there was no light on this side so you can see this bicyclists because when he pushed the light the traffic doesn't stop here someone turning in he's blinded to that the fact that that vehicles coming and hopefully he's been seen there for one second if you were sure that's the no right turn sign at the junction of swift  i've been meaning to say something to justin for years and never think of it but you know when you stop where you can see that little car on the right there right and then you have to pull up a little bit to see if anything is coming from the left and by then you can't see the no right turn sign anymore and so you can't tell whether it's still is on or if it's off right and so realistically that no right turn should be up on one of the wires in front of the driver you know what i'm saying if you're if you're where that car is that we see on the right and then you have to inch up to see if anything's coming from the left if this if you don't see any other traffic by the time you get there you can see if that no right turn signs on or off because it's you've gone past the vis visibility it's in a lousy spot  and then a no right on red signs on where this one is or actually back here or up further or as david said up on the u is not here now it's just a crosswalk sign because you thought it was people were too reliant on the fact that they are a thing with totally confusing drivers have accidents with that intersection like you do multiple times every day right drivers could never figure out whether to stop or go i mean somebody comes up to it instead of waiting ten seconds for the light to turn they press the button and it just better without it there yeah so what you're what you're suggesting  during the construction season it seems like other towns are able to do a chill burn in burlington we would like to see the lines painted before the busy bicycle and  year you know i don't know what it takes the city council voted to add ten thousand last year for that to happen and i believe the only roads that got done were the ones that were repaved where the only ones that got strike  in in all of vermont the thing that we think could happen is a mystery how the original again original contract that says let's paint all the roads simultaneously around and get the best price process it's a very slow process the machines are really expensive but we could collaborate with a couple of other towns and share a machine i thought we were  answers from burlington was that because i thought i talked with her going to d p w and he said he doesn't want to specialize machine that he has to know how to fix so it's better maybe for us to go out to contract i'm not an expert but to go out to contract to a private person to a private company to burlington at burlington other communities yeah i recall in our discussion we were leaving brunton out of it i specifically recall that we were talking interesting year a priority listing for the roads that need to be striping so it's in priority order and we said we'd refresh it again in march but it's probably the same list these are some more examples airplane park airport parkway by again no lines feral street hopefully that will get painted this year when the when the sewage project is completed so any questions on that i don't know justin i think is still has about you know we tried to group all the painting at the same time but it seems to be a safety issue that when it gets doesn't get done until the fall and then we go right into the winter and the kids get straight ok you know for so i just think it's important to get done  number four we think that the city should carve out three to five percent of the paving budget to repair the recreation path system each each get really dug up by tree roots and that needs to be repaired again the spending may not be needed every year we just would be great as a policy that hey we're going to take three percent of the money and  keep the bike path up to up to snuff so that it doesn't get dark dangerous and cause an accident them itself to get that i mean exactly to replace the whole and then in burlington you know how many some of the past like this one in midland avenue where major cracks have happened and may not be able to be filled with crack filler we did work with the d p w this year and starting next year when the roads cracks get filled they're going to start filling the cracks in the direct path they hadn't been doing it because they were a little afraid that like motorcycles on roads it's can be a little slippery when you  surface but it seems like it's better to have that then to have the the the complete wreck path fall apart and any questions on that one recommendation i  mean next we've in this area we've in the past three years ago we got the city to put in ballard's the little plastic bollards to keep people off of the wreck path this is on dorset street and the wreck path rides right runs right along the road and what happens is when people are taking a left during rush hour usually a left on the songbird a little back up starts people go on direct path to get around to keep going and then there's beer but it ends and then what happens is when the traffic again is backed up people trying to get up to their edge class go on to the path use it as a travel lane to take their right turn to go up and then further on down when people get close to the kennedy road turn and they're trying to get to the right on red lane so where this one kennedy drive entrance is up until that point they're going on to the wreck path so we've had several residen lot and i tell you interests a little creepy because you can't really tell the difference between the road and the sidewalk this been plowed so it seems like you mean there you were  right yeah right here under the highway yes you know that an attorney was yeah i mean i noticed on the way over here tonight we've got a bit of a snow bank so that's keeping people off or at least i didn't see any tire tracks one of the storms i saw  tire tracks going through the snow there on to the right path and around so it does happen with these recommendations do we go through them they are if these the beacons need to actually go through say c i p o whatever as it's a safety issue i believe and say that it ok to spend the penny for path money on that  now without waiting to another budget year  i don't really know but we're hoping i think if it's not in the c h p they've unless there's like pre approved list of projects that either the committee or staff or combination thereof like we did with open space comes to you and say if it's on this list we don't need to come back to you we don't have that right now so my recommendation to bob was since it's not in the c i p just to be transparent about it although i don't i think their support all the way around specially for the safety concerns that it just be brought to the f b i to say the go ahead and do it and then when we are sure that it gets authorized to be done items that need to be taken care of and obviously justin has to have the bandwidth then but we do want to censor safety issues we think they need to get funded three to five percent on  advisory role but we do feel some kind of stewardship the money and we just want to be a bit be able to look at the transactions that are going through the penny for pass keep keep informed and maybe once a year get a sort of an annual report each fiscal year saying you know here's what has how much money came in here's what went out and where are we just to keep us up to date  so those i mean those are the safety recommendations some of them been waiting a while and it would be great to move forward now that we have you know a check chunk of money and i don't think like even the fence would cost that much to install across walk across kennedy drive that west wind oaks terrace and then we have three crosswalks that are being scoped right now for heinsberg road between williston road and kennedy drive and those are at ruth street right cord and prouty parkway and that's part of our direct path scoping project that tool design is working on  it and i take the bus star and i sometimes have to cross you know a big pile of snow to get into the bus all right that's just not going to be a place that's going to be cleared but if you go to a cross for a cross section it's clear because the strewth streets are cleared prior to the sidewalks being cleared do you understand what i'm saying yeah and these are what's been scope so they may come to the same conclusion  i and i've always had that i said it once or twice i think i think i'm going to say it again right part of the reason that it's the desired here is the senior living facility is right there and the special  now and the people in the neighborhood cannot access this easily to go to the restaurants that are along here or the pharmacy that's here so it seemed and it again this is an early concept it's not something that's going to happen but what's cool about this is that a win win for drivers that they've added a turning lane to go up to the  edge so that you don't end up with that back up when someone's taken a left turn and the two lanes can proceed without someone darting out to try to get into the right lane so they can get around the car turning left  so just that's where things are headed but actually the and these are just plain mary all right so there's two side walk projects i'm on a side of parkway between kirby road going all the way up to berard drive and maybe even up to pizza putt to get that sidewalk in and that would be accompanied by bike lanes on both sides of the road so that was previously scope around the jughandle driveway i don't know if i dare do that but just to show you so just to orient this is the parking garage is over here and this is a sidewalk and right now students or whatever if they want to get to verizon or staples or east terrace or wherever they walk with their backs to traffic to get over to this crosswalk at  terrorists to continue on and so every day and so so if we're trying to get a or the city's trying to get a sidewalks straight through this ashley parker to try to get some type of an agreement licensed type in place to do this i don't know if our city does it or if that is south burlington so i don't know if we do it or their university does he own the sidewalk and that's what i believe so we are on i think right through this building is the is the fantastic ok the pretty much the one recreation path that's in progress and may be able to get to actual digging this summer or this construction year is the  we that has been previously scoped there's engine engineering services contract is i think in place so that's moving forward we do have one r o w right of way that  exactly now this one i say it's in peru or the slice has in progress but this really hasn't been started yet it's been previously scoped this is the dorset street between path between  there's been no decision they want to get feedback from the trans that actually it will work because it's been turned down twice so ashley is you know making that decision therm third time might be the charm but we don't know the committee would like to move forward no matter what with with getting the engineering going because it's so who knows if it's to happen right now it's in the c i p for twenty two and twenty three fiscal year twenty two and twenty three there's money in the that's in the white twenty well t two pieces of money there's fifty two thousand of recreation impact fees that are sitting in the f y twenty nineteen c ip that could be used to do that engineering study and  and the and there's also money in the twenty f y twenty that was for a project that's not going to it's that money is not going to be spent right away so on a different project so there's money to be moved around yeah so so there are there is a band with problem with this one in the sense that we got i've already showed you all those other projects and so eligible project in the impact feat ordinance it is ok yes yeah yeah and we should be able to do that yeah so and then get the you know the the thing that's the juggle here is that if a grant does come through would be nice to use that engineering money as the match but there's no guarantee so if we're going to move this project which was there and you know the residents number one project forward  i think we should take that chance and spend the fifty two and then if we have to do the twenty percent match on the other six hundred thousand so be that comes out of the proposal but it is a band with issue and this is exactly the reason that we want to bring the impact fee ordinances back to you so that they're more aligned with the c i p and projects rather than a plan of potential things that if they don't happen we can apply the impact fees to it because they're not listed so it gives if they'll be written a little bit more generally and justin and paul they're working pretty hard on hopefully by the summer you'll at least start seeing some of them in the record the wreck impact fee one would include more general language to be able to these kinds of projects and but this one happens to be on the list anyway well i mean twenty percent of our households are within a mile of that section that piece a path and i've seen people walk with strollers down this side of the road to try to get a creamy and it's  pretty dangerous  i don't know probably want to keep going to get going so we don't need to go through  lane to ten feet so that much wider bike lanes now and we have one member of our committee who commutes to global foundry on that knee said it really has helped so so if we really you're past beer it can be used as part of a project cost and that one we expect of hide in are all the paperwork we showed to the public we said that it could be used to hire project managers that type of work so yes to expand the band with we knew that was going to be a constraint really says three hundred about approximately yeah for within the past month or so the current ordinance there's a distinct difference from when i was get the circulation so the current ordinance has been in effect in mended regularly for many years believe it was particular enforcement have become separated the parking regulations are now in forced as a civil matter before the criminal division of  such a complaint can then go to the judge judy distilled bureau two to appeal it parking ordinance is there a parking enforcement is done a little differently there are both the possibility of tickets for collecting of fines and then there's also the removal option of u awfully parked vehicles essentially towing them and there is an appeal process of those as well so that that's the main of these and it's also you know over time the other ones have been the other one excuse me has been amended in a piecemeal fashion and to kind of start with a clean slate it's essentially adopting each of them as a replacement for the old without doing you know little bits of each we just need a we just need a motion to schedule public hearing i guess for each of them and you you have already scheduled and it has not been worn yet but you have agreed to schedule a public hearing on the potential repeal of the emergency management ordinance for march eighteenth and there is still time if you were to move this forward to a public hearing on the same day  team for the second reading of the proposed parking ordinance and second reading of the proposed motor vehicle traffic ordinances any further discussion on favre right great thank you sorry you had to so i don't think we get any responses back about follow up but if you do have anything to be happy to do that pursue that with managers where we remain in good shape budgets on track for about sixty  percent through the year at this point what the one item i did want to bring to your attention is the highway paving which shows it's way over budget and that's just because the accrual hasn't been will yet so that's going to be exactly they're even with the top of the road that may be an issue in the wintertime because then the next plow could peel them up but it what they do now is if it's a deep hole they just put a little bit in to soften the blow right and so we really want t thing to be cut you know into a rectangle and then just filled in and then rolled it right but it takes more time and money to do when you do it in the cold it just is going to get a week later so what you know the wintertime throwing go is good to keep you but you know i can't tell you how many next to the s t ireland but the used to have their lake you know hard scapes enough horses but they had like masonry type storm right as your project doggie daycare they put a saw force there with the blinker because it was so bad i've seen them do throwing went and got one of the orange cones from down feral and stuck it right there because i wanted and i got is close i could without getting it down the road because i don't want people who don't want to create obstacles but when things are bad you have to at least put a warning right there right to tell them don't hit this hole because you will hurt your car you know i mean  question yes so these are following the mill market in delhi on the application do you have any knowledge of where the business was purchased by recently buying new i know it's for sale it's for sale just might be worth asking the question i don't know if it has or not so do you want to hold that well i don't want to hold it up if they haven't sold it they need to keep their license so they need to keep i assume that since they're there applying  current proposal so we're going to leave the council a treat for another time that's right no no we can i just i think my question about the council in the v t digger by t j donovan that said that it's difficult because of the first amendment rights rights so it's it's a difficult issue i'm trying to find what was actually i don't think i saw language this is the plastic that oh i have a letter so i will oh ok like to bring it to the seven yeah  i have the language that monica gave us i apologize i read through this afternoon and i went oh yeah we should probably discuss this mail up to home but it was what brattleboro had done you know write a letter of support to our legislative delegation that says you know we want to look at this or whatever it is we want to do i think she was making the case that in light of all the things that have happened in south burlington in terms of you know the rebels name and then the graffiti on the court and then black like black lives matters of that it's a issue of particular  s march seventh agenda yes we just put her but so so shall we put it on the seventh sure and just you know discuss it a little bit more and decide what it is we want to do