sort of go through this of where we are how we you know what what you know let's face it we don't like the increase that we're seeing in the property tax rate for so what we'd like to do certain sort of go through where we are and try to explain some of the rationale of school financing as it stands right now and then you know talk about some of the some of what has been discussed in montpelier about changes to it and the the purpose is to try and answer your questions as long as the question doesn't isn't how do we reduce our taxes by fifty percent self but we will try and go through this oh good too and as we're getting started senator jenny lyons is joining us so i want to start by saying that when years ago before any of us probably ever paid property taxes you know the school district would set a budget you get to the lister of the town and they would say what the grand list is you do that the vision and then you came up with the what the property r i mean that that was it and we paid for our schools through through the town and as as it continued there was more and more things that we needed more funding other than just paying tom property taxes and it even been involved through the years of additional revenue going in to pay property tax and so one of the things i wanted to show was in one half of this see this in the governor's budget booklet and i left the copies that i made on the copier but here here's a bar chart which shows the different things that go into make up education funding in the state the one one and a half billion dollars is at the root is one unhappy dollars and that goes into education funding in the state but there are you know the the the homestead tax rate that we pay on our home and two acres the nonresidential tax rate the amount that the general fund appropriates to education a portion of sales and use tax a portion of purchase and use tax and you know twenty three million dollars from the lottery oh and was seven million dollars of other so there are a wide variety of revenue streams that come in to to paying that the property or to paying education funding so it's no longer this the simple thing that all the all the education funding is coming out of property taxes or even homestead property taxes so that said why is it that that we see spikes in you know in tax rates and so that's why i ask all of us here are the four of us here to sort of give their perspective on what that is and to sort of give a little i know on the education or the state education funding so that's where we're going to come in now the flip side of this is we have always use this form to let you ask questions we we want that to happen again tonight and we don't have to make this only a education funding so we can we can you know limit that amount of time and ask other questions too and i'm sure that there are there are some other questions little bit about why i think things are looking much worse than i would have hoped this year is sort of a confluence of a bunch of unfortunate  events and you know student population matters and that's going down the mountain mansour district about thirty kids you know and that happens even if you didn't increase your spending one iota good taxes are not based on the budget taxes are based on your education spending and education spending is defined as all the stuff you spend it does not have a specific revenue attached to it so if you drop thirty kids and you're spending the same your education spending per equalize people goes up and that's what your taxes are based so we have that in pla largely throughout the state most many many districts are reducing students and you know statewide it's been a trend and it's looks to continue until at least the end of the current decade  so we have that one thing going the second thing that we have is that you know that the system gets sort of complicated and it gets sort of complicated largely put to produce fairness in the so that is the idea of spending per equalize pupil what is the cost to educate certain kinds of kids some kids are great counted higher than other kids high schools compass higher than elementary school etc etc so so we have the equal i spending going up we also have the  be coming out of this recession more quickly that property values would have rebounded more quickly they haven't so we have the grand list also dropping has to increase  have reduced revenues from the federal government everybody's heard about the sequester without particularly affects the revenues we get in special education which would drop substantially  last year we had a bit of a surplus coming forward and we made the choice then that we would it was something in the range of two hundred fifty thousand we made a choice then to use it all last year  and not split it between last year in this year you know again the whole economy would be recovering that's a problem that is so we have less less of  little bit of buffer we had the statewide property tax is right now the talk is of a seven percent or seven cent increase in the statewide property tax rate that's that's huge  you know we would probably all have different opinions about things will end up i am of the opinion that we will not end up at seven cents that it will be somewhat lower and based a little bit on the recalculation between the homestead tax rate and the non homestead tax rate because for the first time cross the state hopes the tax rate has now exceeded the the johnston rate so i think that there will be a change there i suspect there will be a change to the base income sensitivity you know the majority of people pay based not on the dependent rate but on that they're based on their income and it's one point eight percent of your income i suspect that would be bumped up probably to the one point nine percent so i mean you has their annual meeting thursday night over a camel's hump and encourage all to go and go and listen haven't done those for sixteen years with you know more but my read of the tea leaves you know my hopes are that our state wide tax increase will be a little less of the more in the four to five cent grange others may have different opinions about that up here but some way that down a bit i don't think that we're going to hear any of that actually happening so you know you'll be faced with the budget situation that you've seen so you know i think the one other point that i would make is that there's a bit of a there is because of because of the way we do things and because of the complications of the system there is a bit of a disconnect between exactly what your budget goes and what your taxes you know and i did this for instance there are actual budget is going down but the taxes are to speed up about fourteen and a half percent despite the taxes go down you know and that's you know again all these factors that i mentioned so first of all it's great to be here thank you all for being here and senator jenny lyons i do represent you in the in the senate and i am on a science committee and one of the issues that we're very safe excited but interested in looking at again is of course education finding and we all face the ongoing issue increasing costs associated with education and one of the one of the things that we did this fall you may have read about it in the news or heard about it is the governor convened a symposium on education financing to look at what is what is the problem and or what are the problems what is what one of the issues associated with are feeling uncomfortable with the current wave of the fund creation because some of it jarvis may be very comfortable with the fact that we're where we're paying more for our education and others don't feel that that same way so we're trying to figure out if there is a problem what is it is it a problem of perception or is it based on in reality you know those of us who see  r increase in taxes going up when we've been working hard to hold our school budgets level think there's a problem so the we asked a console a series of a set of consultants to come in and work with those folks who are very knowledgeable about education education financing and to bring us back a summary of everything that was being discussed at the symposium and the things that you are all aware of we've identified as a key key issue so if you say what is the cause of high spending  well is it is it the size of schools is it the size of our districts we have very small schools in this state the largest district in a state is bearlike telescope four thousand students and that's nothing compared with other parts of the country so do we have a sped we're spending pressures because of our size and should we do something about changing our district configuration that's been an ongoing discussion in the legislature and i'm sure it's one that will will continue is it something to do with the funding formula itself and as george has said we've seen in increases property tax we feel the increase in the rates at the same time fingered you know budgets are holding steady school boards are working hard to keep spending low we've all been a part of that so what is it well we're coming out of a significant downturn in our economy and the common level of appraisal appraisal property appraisal is low so when you have a lower property appraisal that means everyone has to the rate has to go up a little bit to help raise the same amount of money and we're all feeling that pressure right now so is it the funding formula should we be looking at  that in some way whether it's our residential and nonresidential property valuation and rates the the other issue that has been identified and is discussed quite a bit is involvement decline so decreased number of kids would be great if we had more kids and would that solve our problem i don't know but if i for one of those i don't like seeing the declining enrollment although there are some places in the state where we're seeing more kids coming so is it the decline in the number of children going to school and those that have an effect and if so what effect there's a gap and then one of the key issues that we should also think about ourselves is our own voter our preference because voters when we vote for school budgets we've a we've had a lot of success in the past few years there been very few school budgets that have been voted down in this state over the past couple of years so we're starting to feel the tension from people about not wanting to see property tax increase but at the we all want our schools to do well we want kids to do well we want to have appropriate buildings services teachers recreational activities for kids in schools so we continue to be voters who support the budgets when they're presented to us especially in our own home home towns so those were those are actually some of the key issues that have been identified and each one of the issues has its own list to  evaluate that education committee in both in the house and the education committee in the senate i know has been engaged in looking at a number of these issues for example district size is something that  looking at can mold together may not have consolidated but our consolidating purchasing or other administrative tasks that are saving the money by actually find a plan a lower cost rate than most other school systems why is that not happening everywhere and so i try to look around the five those ways or we can simply find efficiencies without even major overhauls around you know local control issues and so forth and there's of our schools but that isn't going to solve all there's a there's a handful of things some of these correlate to what's on the other page but last year for a living keep budgets down from climbing as fast we had used nineteen million dollars in reserve fund which is the bottom available funds number on the chart well that's about two cents on the rate but that's been used up and we don't have that reserve to then use to help this year i would say a huge factor besides lowering the the number of kids in our school system is really the overall property values and lack of that going up in any significant way and while it's in county it's been stable or slightly going up for the most part many parts of the state of going down unfortunately what that means is a state wide rate is applied to everybody but it hits us worse in shipment county because the state wide rate sort of has to adjust up or down based on the overall grand less of the grand less for the state goes down a little bit statewide rate goes up but individual towns the property values may have gone up which means we get hit harder hit our towns where the property values went up compared with property dies and other parts of the state so that is mean good news it's just explaining cents but when the property values stay wide and going up then it goes the other direction and the rates go up in order to raise the revenue that we do increase by whether it be two percent or three percent these last couple years and actually as a state on average that a very good job of holding things to fairly small increases but maybe because it's a rolling average for three years we're feeling the effects of the last three years economic property value stagnation and slightly deflation across much of  state and so that's why we're feeling that now versus six years ago or ten years ago and at the same time cost of living is going up so i have to raise money for the second factor that's happening in a lot of communities is that the american recovery ira money is running out to a lot of school systems that might have had one hundred or two hundred to three hundred thousand dollars augmenting their budget from the federal government that is gone so now you know if you kept your budget absolutely level there's three you're two or four hundred thousand dollars that need to be made up in your totals in your money every side and again that's going to affect the tax rate so it's this unfortunate confluence of a number of factors that's driving up the rates regardless of how well the school school board does at finding ways to save money back to the policy side one topic that was talked about today by the board of education was potentially consolidate things into k through twelve systems at least as far as management to try to reduce some overhead  also i brought up the topic of the fact that our school systems today compared to what they did ten years ago and twenty and thirty and forty years ago have really become the the the social worker hub of our communities and when we have challenges in our communities on an individual basis where that is borne out is in the schools our teachers are both teaching and performing the duties of being social workers in certain circumstances which means we've brought in a lot more help into the schools which is driven our budgets up and it and i've been thinking about that in terms of how we pay for social services in this state and really trying to push for discussion to say why don't we ha of extra rooms that are so many of our schools as populations are going down have those rules be used by the agency of human services as town bases for our social service providers so they're in the school so when something happens with a child the social service providers are even working with that family in the community knows the history of that situation knows the circumstance of that situation and is immediately there but also that means that services provided by the agency of human services budget which is where it belongs which is broader general fund revenues and then taxes and spending and not have that keep being an annual burden that he's getting put into the school budget and i don't know what the exact result of that would be it's probably a multi year process to figure out how that would work from a how to keep how to have always different it all in silos of power structures dealing with this sort of thing but to me it just seems insane that we are having the school system do the services that agency of human services should be doing so when you said social services  circumstances is it folks we just were talking today about a bill that would allow if a family has to move a bit here to another community because of economic circumstances or a divorce or someone does their job or in some cases section eight housing disappears or the quality housing that the people get removed from it they've got to move to another town how you can move to another town midway through the year particularly they have other challenges a lot of times schools will augment that child with us special services provider for a month two months or three months just out that acclimate to this whole new world when they've also got all these other homeworld challenges and so one bill we're looking at is allowing those kids to stay in the prior school system so they've got to move from underhill to willesden for housing scenario or for some example they can stay in underhill they still leave the school with the kids they know there's some stability there so there's there's a potential for just stability which tends to cost less than instability and maybe they stay there for one year or even two or three but when you move kids around to do all the time in those circumstances there's actually at a time just dealing with them bursting out new issue and it began in one thousand nine hundred eighty two or three with act fifty eight which mandated that there be drug and alcohol education for teachers and then that teachers  become experts in intervening when there are family issues with drug and alcohol and then a few years ago we had a student assistant astuteness system program and counsellors who were put into school and paid for from department of health and social services because our budget is so the struggle we've had to take those folks out there when you look so it's a combination of having this terrible pressure on all of us the social pressure for drug abuse i mean you just it's and it reaches into kids who have significant learning disabilities and not just special ed but learning to read later and doing things and a way that has been done before and needing to have folks in the school help kids so one of the analyses that we've done is to look at numbers of pair educators and then that the numbers just increased radically even with a gone down right but the taxes are still going to so good to distribution of course partly but remember here here's here's the federal money you have you have to level fixed costs you have a level living they can be reduced over time and they should be a point i don't that in this district our transportation costs will ever go down is because we have a very spread out district we spend a lot of money on transportation you know if you have forty kids on the bus and so seventy kids on the bus you've still got to run the bus it costs virtually the same so i suppose so but they are they aren't all so you have fixed costs and then you have if you look at what's happened with the population of kids in our district you know our special ed numbers has stayed pretty not they haven't gone up that fast but the intensity their their needs are much higher than they they were when i got on the school board but when you also look at what's called five zero four k so these are kids who have special learning needs but are not special education healthcare bill so this is not getting federal funding the way the special ed would look at the numbers of those kids and it has gone way up and along in you know that requires a lot of resources resources a lot of extra  so it is but it's a whole different topic it's called adverse childhood experiences and you look at if you look at had first childhood experiences and this is there is a humongous medical literature about this ok you look at things that happen to kids in their early in their life it changes their brain it leads to health problems through their whole life and i'm not just talking about mental health problems i'm talking about cancer talk about so if you look at sixty five year olds in this state what percentage of those folks have for adverse childhood experiences here if you look at forty five to sixty five year olds it's here if you look at you know eighteen family dysfunction side you have a family member who's incarcerated and what more those family member with mental illness a family member or domestic violence than the house  i think it's the same reason we can't get our health care costs under control you know if you've got six of these adverse experiences your life expectancy is reduced twenty years twenty years you know and me just it is it is profound so what i think's going on i think we're having more of these things and so that's why these kids have more needs it clearly affects learning i mean if you look at m r i to brains of these kids wow it's a huge difference to be reversed and we weeks maybe was last week and talked about the effect the the effect of some of these early childhood drugs on achievement and learning disabilities  ritalin as an example lowers the ability to learn and this is where we're finding out that these these are negative effects within the school system but also have  think about and that's health care costs and as we look at the cost of health care that's embedded in your budgets you know school budgets and all of our budgets is significant so we've there with some of us have started a conversation with teachers and with it ms traders trying to look at what kind of transition could we make a way bringing health care away from taking it away from the employment environment and that would have an effect on school budgets it won't it won't change the need to pay for health care of the as an alternative but it won't be coming out of theoretically you know policy wise that wouldn't have to be coming out of or being better in school but i think that is wor evaluating it doesn't mean we're taking health care away from teachers it simply means that we're removing it from the school budget allowing for greater creativity and flexibility within the development of the budget  up all at once and it didn't pop up all at once urban other districts in other parts of the state that have been hit with large increases at different times and  east it i shouldn't say that we we you know that we forecast it but it was unbearable that it may happen so the study really didn't just start this year i mean that there has been this discussion about the x sixteen x sixty eight whether we should read do it completely or tweak it or whatever but what was happening was that this little area of the state was having this little influx here and couldn't east wasn't so you know we did see the same you know it wasn't the push in this area at that time and this is been sort of going on is it's festering throughout the state which is too bad i mean if the whole state would have done it you know at the same time that what it showed a little more that it had to be done immediately however for some reason and it's probably a lot of the reason is because it's happening in chicken and county let's let's face it is that it it's it is getting more attention not more attention and committee rooms but more attention radical changes sometimes have other consequences and so a couple years ago there was the bill passed to sort of entice schools to consolidate and and allow local control to the side but give a few more carrots try to make that happen and basically one air one for three or four school area did it here in the county we had you know two towns out of three votes for it for him and all three to vote for it so they did that and there and didn't have anywhere else and so that was a here's a few carrots but we also want to maintain local control so you decide that didn't work so now are coming back and looking at should there be forced consolidation and we have to remember that here in trenton county most of our towns are are a bit larger than some of those other towns and so we're used to you know more kids being in our school odds are we wouldn't be forced to consolidate as much because we have some critical mass numbers but many of our colleagues in the house and senate who represent smaller towns are pretty resistant to forced consolidation because they feel like they're losing their to lose the school in their town you know if if tomorrow you were told there won't be a school in turkey or underhill tomorrow you might see some pretty significant pushback on that and that happens at other areas of the state so as biggest technicality as we don't actually have a straight out majority so that's why i things unfortunately don't happen overnight i may not be the answer you want but that's just wonderful reality services in general fund budget but that's there's no doubt that's a longer scenario where we'll also be looking at what is the base you're at right now is a base that everyone gets for chipping county i'm thinking particularly where we are we've always had a higher rate and if you look at the look at the data across the state that it actually makes sense to begin to consider that in the show in the short term i don't i can't promise something will happen but we are looking at short term financial things that we can do actually lou and mike my question now to you all is  one of the tensions that we feel all the time regarding education in the state house is it's been very much a local control issue budgets are developed at the local level they're foetid on by we want to be able to do this for our schools but then when we get into into the issues of property tax administration district consolidation i'm starting to hear people that tell me to go do something in my field here so i need to know that if i go do something in my village i'm doing it for you and it's not going to be a matter of saying oh gosh at the id school or mansfield a very very big chunk of your budget comes to you as an assessment from chip in the east you know if your budget fails in five other districts or six other districts in sydney's passage you can't go back and change the assessments that came from each year working with a really small part of the budget this could be partially solved or largely solved with consolidation you know we took a you know what hopefully will be voting on that again sometime soon and remember it's you know it there may or may not be huge savings in the consolidation but i think there will be some but equally importantly right now in these really bad tax times there is a state incentive to do that there's a six cent reduction the first year for cent reduction and the second year in two separate auction your taxes the third year have to do a consolidation you know i can't think of a time when would be better you know would be more important to have that the supervisors into nice we do so many things at the supervisor union level special ed transportation technology shared programs those are all done at the supervisor union level that budget is developed by an executive  people never directly vote on that budget it comes back an element to the individual school districts as an assessment they build that into their budget then you get the vote on the school district budget so if we  with only the members of the executive committee who come from one very skilled workers very school boards but the public never gets a direct vote on any of the chip in these stuff which is why i say it's a crazy government structure for the flip side of that is that all the schools than are under one school board so an advantage of that is that if the school population goes down and this one increases a little you know teachers can be moved you know if if you need it you know typically what happens is that third grade class goes down here and fourth grade class goes down here and so you you know you just don't have the right mix  teachers and in children or things like that so that's you know that kind of takes care of it but what is the you know one of the most shifts things about consolidation and it's big it's basically not in this room but it's in the little schools of bolton and huntington where they see that there's a possibility that this central school board could say ok we need to close a school you know it's not going to be retro an elementary school that gets closed you know it's going to be one of the small schools probably so this is this is sort of that give and take as far as real is real community part of it i don't see that that changes the the principal stays in each individual school the the parent teacher organizations stay in that school the you know the community  part of this you know takes care of the school but we we do have we do look at the entire budget then and we don't see it so your point here about so the idea did their their due diligence and kept the the budget flat and both jarkko elementary and underhill central you know were very very close to being flat also but remember we have these these other costs that involve th special ed special ed in and to the nieces paid for out of the central office the special ed teachers are not not employees of underhill id they are employed by east and then assigned to the different schools and then you pay your portion of it so that is you know determined separately from the id budget and you know we know we've just been through this big discussion that's a very big part of it transportation is the same way now for transportation goes i don't think it makes any difference who divides up the transportation budget you know it's going to be about the same because we don't just that we got a question back balanced budget to include the assessments this year it's done in addition to the state of vermont is the third highest tax the nation if you look at income tax with highest taxed if you for just property taxes and that is a intolerable level of taxation all right first state that we are we cannot be it's all right if you look at the overall issues of education where you're trying to save money you can a special ed teacher here saved you know twenty grand on paper from staples ok that's rearranging the chairs on the deck of the titanic testicles yeah all right if you need to look at see big millions of dollars in order for me to get an income tax if you want to see it target said you know what one reason why we don't want to come to him on this because it is harder to build a store in vermont but it is in boston all right boston a city all right with tons of regulations all right so when you look at this when you look at those kind of conditions already we've created a legal set that is business unfriendly all right we have a legislature that continues to look at a tax base of people that we just can't continue to give you money symbols have we can't continue to give you money all right and ask for more and you ask for more and more and more you've got to look at some other ways to bring income and i think indeed the cost of education all right i just a smart is a is a part of that all right but you've got to look at all the other things that you know we get you know slam on on for income and i asked you know when you concentrate on your legislative activity and i know there's things out there your people consider to be important jim knows legalize pot whatever ok i can tell you that it's not the most important thing when you're continue to come back and ask for money one so there are people who are looking at i'm on the education committee a lot of time looking at some of these you may think it's only pennies but it really does add up to the this different portions of education so some of us are looking at that in our committee  not saying i'm an expert on everything going on in the world but we sometimes go to conferences with legislators from every state around a particular topic and part of what from our look at this is not necessarily always were a high tax state hard to develop but also how stable we are because we don't boom the boom and we don't bust the heart of the us that's and that's a choice we've made in that it's got across the minuses you're right it isn't easy to do for development but we didn't over build houses and lose half and i know somebody moved here from florida committee an addition to three hours another day and will continue with three hours for another few days we're looking at the tax credits that we provide to businesses in this state they are significant  you do know that we have you know over five hundred million jobs in just one sector of tax credits so that is a tax benefit to those folks so those are taxes that we pay in story sure that companies are in this state manufacturing and doing things that benefit us so when you say we're overtaxing comb to try to figure out which ones are being use first which ones are productive and which ones make sense for this little tiny states or small we have a small population let's face it and we know that we you know we're we're not the richest state in the union we absolutely know that but we also know that we we have certain values about environmental values small business values and we want to and our in our school about taxes we're not going to be getting money from the federal government as much as we have in the past that's that's drying up like crazy so then we have to make decisions and we do are we going to compensate for what the federal kids who have special needs and are funded through medicaid special ed i don't think we can scale those kids back and so but it's something i obviously special  i think another area look at where these two big school buses i'm sorry buses that are in this transportation budget and the same school buses that were running you know running fifty years ago and there's something really wrong about that but my question is who ultimately calls the shots on what direction this column today you know you can have sixteen you know that senator lyons and a few others are involved with other members from the financial committees trying to coordinate the financial side and look at options there and she mentioned some of those beginnings coming together and it's really the education is meeting with the chair of finance but it's but it's also it's a challenge that the chair of education right now is not a member of the county is very focused on a particular issue which is public to ition dollars going with students to independent institutions that don't have to meet the same mandates regulation that's a good topic to talk about there's millions of dollars that follow with these students to private schools that don't have to meet the same regulations and mandates but is that the most important thing right now bill talked about you know to focus on that that's what we've been on and you know a couple of us and discussion when it's partly what's led me to this discussion around social services but also to me and this is you know again i don't know if this could sway this a land but i think over the last ten fifteen years we have moved to such a testing regimen and such a prescribed curriculum regimen and such everything in a box regiment on teachers in our schools they were actually failing our students because the people that went into teaching who went in with a passion and an ability to be inspiring i've seen so much time checking off boxes filling out sixteen different ways to evaluate your grade sort of five periods of scared of grade inflation let's do it like when i was a kid that and all these different tests that they're teaching to that our kids are being turned into little robots are all being taught exactly the same because that's what the formulas to do so i've turned around said ok if the private schools keep saying if you make us do these mandates we will be able to educate our kids to the great results that we are  that ok what are the mandates that we're requiring of our public schools that are impeding us from teaching supposedly as well as the price of thought so simple as that any onion you peel back and again that's a complicated discussion because you know you want to have a no child left behind or certain money doesn't come from the feds you want to you know unfortunately just as three four hundred thousand dollars is pulled out of the budget this year because of aero money disappearing well we change some of these requirements they're attached to money and so all this stuff it's the options are not as broad as we would like them to be but they're worth looking at the way to question federal government to provide lots of services for mott has chosen to provide those services in the regular classrooms and not move special ed students to a classroom all by themselves so we eligible to use them until your second season of the job so you can start to accrue the time it can go to use it to hide in the student working in weeks on the job who qualified you know already accrued time but couldn't use it and get the benefit of it until the second year they ten some for eight months some for four months and i would love to offer my employees paid sick leave every business would love them and i would do it except that the farm next to me might not and therefore they can sell their product for that little bit cheaper even though we would all be better off if we let that one sick person not come to work that day so the next day four of our crew a second going slower so it's actually it's a good business practice but you can't do it when you're competing for the lowest price product on the that the workers scenario better and the employer scenario better but it wouldn't otherwise happen in the  it's really concentrated in two industries it's concentrated in the food service industries and it's concentrated in the retail industry ok now personally i see it as a matter of public health i don't want somebody cook in my sandwich w coffin over my salad before the waitress brings it to me i don't i don't want that i don't need that i don't want my kids in school getting sick because the mom can't stay home with her sick kid has to send a kid to school i see it as a public but i can tell you one thing that we heard lately they heard some testimony from san francisco chamber of commerce initially opposed this and that was a giant champion of them after the city did that chamber of commerce there is a what you said there are three things you know there's another choice that is made honestly in my pill here and that's some of the stuff comes out of the ed fund that you know you might take issue with some of some of the money for current something million dollars on that so there goes our good ed budget not the director of corrections budget budget small school grants we spent seven and a half million dollars on the small school grants encouraging the you know there are some that have to be there but that might go so yeah well we hear every year we heard it might go away so there are a number of other policy choices of things that are coming out of the education fund or or money not going into otherwise would go into the education fund which you know i think is is something to be considered to ok last question i mean the old i'm not a business issue but still you're projecting that you know for the next  whole country is the irony is that there are some school districts that are getting increasingly population burling to be one way in this area and windows and so they're they're seeing an influx of students from a variety of places some some of whom speak other languages and that compounds they issue so somehow we need a different waiting and one different analysis of class size number of  students student teacher ratio that is a huge huge huge question it would be nice say going back to your question on leadership two years ago we put in place  secretary of education and an agency of education and now the state board of education is finding its way to a new role i i sincerely wish that we would see leadership coming from that organization remember that we're in an environment where the democratic environment and democracy is messy so you're you're off ealing the the process that we go through is not cut and dry we have committees we talk with each other we work together we do have he issues that we are focused on some of which will be short term will be long term but when we make tough decisions we need to know that we're being supported in those tough decisions at least for fifty one percent of the people i know not everybody's are always going to be happy at the level could come down to this right now this is ninety thousand dollars as the issue that you're talking about here again that's another short term decision that we could make you know with should we keep th income sensitivity of at that level ninety thousand should it go up two hundred five thousand should it be down the seventy five thousand and so yes but i but we should not throw away from  far formula is that we do take into account the world series and you may not have been here yet i think that right now it's been one point eight percent of your income and i think that pace will go up it may go