with the planning committee meeting up thursday june thirtieth two thousand sixteen please come to order my name is don couch i'm the chair of the committee and before we get started can i ask everybody to please turn off any noise making devices everybody check your pockets check your phones make sure it's on ok i would like to introduce our committee voting members first as i said i'm don coutts chair and then the vice chair is council member robert carol right with us today deputy corporation counsel michael hopper good morning and welcome back and staff with us today legislative attorneys great guard good morning good morning committee secretary pauline martin good morning on a district office don good morning at the line i district office denise fernandez office good morning ladies alright members today we have three items on the agenda p c thirty seven two which is a letter which includes a letter from the department of drawings as are permitted use in the residential zoning districts and p c sixteen bill seventy eight two thousand and fifteen relating to what bars in drawling units first were going to open with public testimony for individuals testifying in the chamber please sign up at the desk outside the chamber door if testifying from remote testimony site please sign up with district office staff testimony will be limited to the items listed on the agenda today pursuant to the rules of the counsel each testify will be allowed to testify for up to three minutes pride i'm also be allowing an additional minute to conclude testimony you get a lighting system we have a green light for three minutes yellow light for one additional minute and then when the red light flashes  please and your testimony when testifying please state your name and any organization you may be representing members without objection will open public testimony  the list of test fires first we have tom blackburn rodriguez followed by stan fran chairman good morning members of the committee and before beginning my testimony i would like to request permission to read the testimony of kelly polly cruz during my time period in the not to take any additional time she's unable to attend  to a business requirement thank you i'm not sure if i should address this committee as you know i do not have a cane because i want to honor you all because you are still standing good morning chair couch and members of the committee i am reading this for kelly polly cruz my name is kelly pauly cruz i live in ky a i'm a businesswoman in the mother of four children like them i am lucky enough to be born and raised on maui applying as a volunteer on behalf of gold valley a nonprofit organization working to expand the supply of affordable housing and jobs go now i strongly supports the passage of p c sixteen relating to what bars and dwellings c twenty eight to permit affordable accessory dwellings in residential district in both cases the opportunity to open up more housing opportunities for mali's local families more than justifies their passage to the state department of projected twenty five percent growth rate both of these measures under consideration look at resources we already have and how to expand them further they will not solve our affordable housing crisis but they are the kind of steps we need to take now to at least begin to chip away at the problem and that is far better than doing nothing my only concern is that it's crucial to realize the definition of a single family residence per fannie mae is one kitchen or fannie mae does almost all the mortgages guaranteed some in the united states their definition of a single family residence is one kitchen allowing a wet bar would be my recommendation forces additional kitchen language so that homeowners don't run into problems when sunday's properties later they could be determined to be non conforming along fannie mae guidelines i will be happy to provide a copy of the fannie mae selling guide to the committee chair next week to equip you with the necessary information i should point out it is the federal government document it is three hundred pages thank you for the opportunity to testify and thank you for your work on this issue as a chair and that concludes my remarks c twenty again thank you for bringing this to the fore and as kelly was talking about as bob thomas reading we too are concerned that this is just a small piece of the big picture that we need to really get together as a community around the issue of affordable housing i know i'm getting old what the other day a young man maybe in his mid thirty's says to you to me that we are our one on up that we as a small island need to work together and i was at the book fundraiser this past weekend on saturday and i was talking to a person is running for this council and he made the i asked the question how we going to do this you know i think all of us are trying to figure out how we're going to build affordable housing in a large enough amount as kelly pointed out as town read this issue you know i am really lucky and i've shared with you when i first got married and went in i was in a rental housing for three years then i bought an ar izumi home and nine years later because by then my family was growing i decided to sell my hours away home and move into another home i had an opportunity i was working for the government and you know how much that pay and they still is able to do it but today our young people can do it all are we working together as one ohana to solve this issue all my three kids and four grandsons are in the main in california we are losing our people because we're not addressing the issue of affordable housing so i ask you to approve p c twenty eight today move it along thank you for bob in gary for taking care of this and the four and let us really work together face mom he wants to sit at the console or anybody else on the issue of affordable housing so we can create a plan that we all can agree on as to where we're going to o a chair loa committee members tom crawley speaking on my only half and we have three agenda items and i'd like to be address each of those briefly on the first item the increasing the immaterial of affordable housing i reviewed the correspondence from the planning director and i think each of these are good ideas to bring forward to help the situation however each of those has carr carries with it some struggles if we change zoning in areas you're going to have people standing here at this podium saying don't change my zoning you know you can't do that and you may even have other departments coming forward and  saying well that would be more dangerous you're going to create a traffic problem or you're going to create a fire problem and we understand that each of these criteria that have been passed in law they did have a rational basis behind them but what we have to realize is we're paying the price for that the price we're paying is can't afford to build a house anymore it's very simple i recently submitted an apple an application to do some renovations to my own house ok and it cost me ten thousand dollars just to get to the point of being able to meet the requirements to submit ok that wasn't building anything that was just to get to the point of submitting something and then it comes back to me oh no you can't do this and you can't do that because it doesn't fit within the codes so i'm trying to comply with those things then i submit it to some builders and say what's going to cost me to build this and i get back about three hundred dollars a square foot hold it i'm not adding a bit bathroom i'm not adding a kitchen i'm not adding any any extra footprint to my house three hundred dollars a square foot for a box with a with a with a with a with a roof on it so now let's let's put that in perspective a fifteen hundred square foot home ok now let's add a bathroom to it because people need a bathroom now let's add a septic system to it because the department of health is requiring that septic system now let's add fiction to it that we that we have to europe over five hundred thousand dollars and you don't even have the land at that point ok and we all know what the land costs so again i support all of these ideas but we have to recognize that we can't even build an affordable home and meet the regulations for anything close to affordability sure i'd like to move on my comments to the second item which is bob carroll's amendment here to allow these ohana dwellings to be built on smaller lots i think it's a great idea but again we run into the situation where on that smaller lot now you're going to build no hotted wehling we have to have more parking oh and those two dwellings have to be separated by at least ten feet oh and they have to be in the setback areas so we have to look at how can we do this stuff practically ok maybe we have to revise the setbacks maybe we have to say to fire you know maybe we can make these buildings a little closer i can understand why they want the foot to the building separated for a fire separation in a fire break but how many you know fires is is is it going to save how many lives is it going to save have that separation maybe we have to take a little bit of compromise here to make this work i was it was saddened to see that over on where they passed a similar ordinance about a year ago the news reported that in the year that they had that ordinance in place and i don't think it was full year i think it was about nine months there were four only four ohana dwellings had been able to be built in an island on an island that has two hundred sixty thousand residential homes so they were able to add to their inventory by four because these people couldn't meet the requirements that just on these smaller lots of becomes more and more difficult to do that we have also the problem here is interpretation of laws and policies you can interpret a policy very strictly and you can figure out a way to say no to almost anything or you can interpret a policy more liberally and you can figure out a way to to allow it i'm going to give you an example the department of health is currently saying any room that could be used as a bedroom is a bedroom so if you build a new family room on to your house they say hell that family room is a bedroom now why does that matter because then they say the septic system that you have that was fo five bedrooms now you're adding that family room that's a bedroom you don't have to upgrade that septic system and let's let's look at the idea of building more dwellings even on larger lots like let's say in the agricultural district someone  system in it's for five bedrooms they've already built to have house that's four bedrooms they've already built in the heart of that's one bedroom now they've got all this other land you say it's simple just build to build another dwelling on there we're going to give you the ability to do that but now the apartment house says that s isn't adequate so so now we've increased the cost of building that home but also even on a big lot we may have made it impossible because the leach field for the existing septic system is taking up a quarter of the lot the existing house is taking up a quarter of the lot maybe the house is on a on a bit of a slope and you know there's a there's a part that you can't use so i hate to step up for failure and that's that's what some of our laws do they set people up for failure they say you have this great idea i want to build  here and i want to get it done and they go and they have the plans drafted and they find out it's ten thousand dollars to do that but they follow it then they submit these plans and they get shut down so we have to think about you know these policies that we have and liberalize them here so we're not depending on that liberalisation of them to take place at the administrative level we can't let the administrators make that policy decision it has to be done here thank you share i'm going to move on to the  i've testified three times on this issue and i think i understand the the issues that are at play here and again it's a matter of tradeoff ok these wet bars if we d fine them strictly as wet bars as this new definition attempts to do and not as you know what they've kind of been used as four years these these accessory kitchens we then are taking away an opportunity to really create some immediate impact on affordable housing everything that the the two other items above might have an impact years down the road ok changing zoning could happen years down the road  that kind of thing but this one could have an impact immediately if we liberalize the rules for a wet floor allow a full size kitchen sink stay within what kelly p cruz was talking about we don't want to create something that would make a home nonfinancial but if they're going to put a countertop stove on there or and and do some some like cooking that is a way that we can really create some housing for people there was a concern that was expressed about this at the at the planning commission when it came by them and they said we don't want to create a whole bunch and do short term rentals with these and i would say let's deal with that in the short term or in the bed and breakfast rules if we want to say these can't be used in this way for a bed and breakfast or a pusher to reynold that's the place to do that ok but let's let people build these things and use these things and house people because that can have an immediate impact the other thing is we all know it's already happening i mean let's let's not bury our heads in the sand and while we're not trying to shut people down on that i also recognize the difficulty that the planning department has when a neighbor calls in and says oh my neighbor has an illegal dwelling in there and they have to waste the time and resources of his own enforcement guy to say oh this wet bar is not being used properly or is not properly permeated and you need to take it out now and that really is a true waste of everybody's resources because we might be having someone lose their home and we're spending county resources and isn't the goal here to create housing rather than restrict housing so i encourage you to liberalize this definition of a weapon or as i said before i think the idea of no gas and no two twenty makes sense ok but the idea of limiting the size of the sink does not make sense let him have a sink of whatever size the idea of the size of the refrigerator i have to roll my eyes i've got a refrigerator in my office ok does that make my office into a kitchen you know it houses my cold drinks i i think that that's we're get we're going to step too far when we start regulating the sizes of refrigerators you know so anyway those are my thoughts on it i hope that you have a good discussion on it i recognize you're going to take any action today but but please recognize that it's the it's the laws and policies to come out of this chamber that dictate whether or not it's possible for us to have affordable housing and this is a place where you can help that you chair and committee members tom curley made my testimony very simple i didn't really come here to testify but he we had a little chat outside and he encouraged me to say a couple of things  with him and that sort of grey area is there any way that we could make somehow affordable housing out of where there is a once was a completely of a strict and wet bar i've been on now quite a long time and the question of the let the her l r second kitchen has been going on for a very long time and there was a time where it was kind of like well if you just have a hot plate it's ok or if it's just a microwave it's ok no you can't have any heating element at all well no you could have a coffee maker so it went on it's gone on for so long and and a few months ago i submitted an after the fact permit for a house and that was getting ready to sell the house and historically the house was on the record says a three bedroom house and in actuality it had somehow over time turned into a two bedroom house so we got plans john and we submitted it and in their office in this home there was a bar sink and it went up to planning and it came back as with a note saying bar sink not allowed remove revised page eighty two and eighty three removed arcing so i wasn't sure why so i looked it up and i was trying to figure out why it's not a bedroom i thought i understood what the wet bar definition was i went back and looked again for the definition of a wet bar i found actually the ordinance it didn't get signed but i wasn't paying attention to there was no number on that ordinance so i called and i said i don't understand what is what is the definite why is this being why is this parsing not ok and he said well there's no such thing as a wet bar i said what is the definition of a wet bar and he says the where did you see that did it have a number on and i was he alerted me to it oh no it doesn't he said the policy well the reason that they're planning said no wet bar is because we have no definition for a wet bar and therefore there is no such thing as a wet bar and therefore it's not permitted so i'd like to encourage that you adopt a definition whatever it is so that whoever else behind me comes along and tries to present a plan for  bar isn't told you can't have any wet bar of any kind because we have no definition on the how to merge the affordable housing liberalize a wet bar to housing what i keep picturing is if as much as like tom was saying a hot plate could be allowed and i do understand and i've written letters to don couch two years ago and more recently to and michelle mclean trying to say how come we can't just like liberal in his using his word liberalize and it comes down to well the zoning then you're creating two additional housing in the zoning doesn't permit and i do understand that i'm not totally naive to the law but i keep thinking in terms of college students coming home and not being able to afford moving out but they don't really want to be eating their breakfasts with mom and dad anymore or i think of the coupon up who aren't really he now don't need to go to to be sent out of the house but nobody in the family really wants everybody get there for breakfast lunch and etc how nice if they could live in the bedroom where they had a little hot plate a little fridge and sink and they could have a little bit of self respect where they're living and supporting themselves independently so those are my ideas i don't know how you can fix it but i wish it could be simple it seems simple thank you thank you miss star so do we members any questions to the test i cannot begin to tell you how excited we are to see today's agenda my county family making moves towards being part of the housing crisis solution instead of being part of the problem both gov have stated that a key to fixing our housing shortage is for government to stop being an impediment in development and instead recognize its responsibilities to become a housing facilitator their creativity and represented in today's agenda demonstrates that county is coming to grips with the depth of our housing dilemma and is willing to step out of its comfort zone to address it and i wan wellings properties the small of five hundred square feet five thousand square feet scuse me we can recommend that the council approved the measure without any stipulations except a prohibition on vacation rentals there's no need to add requirements that the thief units be used as affordable units because clearly four hundred fifty square foot dwellings will not be curious adopting detail because detailed requirements may actually paid their development what obvious strategy for addressing our housing shortage is to increase a lot of densities in existing neighborhoods and make better use of our existing housing stock that's why we seriously recommend that the county consider allowing additional cooking facilities beyond this one standard kitchen and single family residential units and that's single family and quote it is time to realize that families have been adding density without permits for decades and to recognize that additional families who share the same homes should should also have access to safe healthy cooking facilities call it a weapon or whatever but recognizing the family's existence in needs would be  another step toward a step outside of our collective regulatory box and towards making dwellings safe finally we would like to praise the planning department ambitious offering of other potential out of the box housing solutions as recognized on the list that we have here perforce today the latter last year ramp surveyed variety of knowledgeable housing and planning professionals and came up with a number of the same steps that the planning department is offering here key elements on this list would include adding density making better use of existing homes and and undeveloped properties in forty five different directions and wants i mean everything from immigrant services to through the housing crisis and meanwhile we have you know we've had this situation where we've had like one thousand units then a fight is affordable t land use commission and then arguing when one of the bulb or goes alongside a developer the same l a county needs is and you guys need to get out of the way and let this happen the way it's going to legislature and trying to change the state laws on these kind the district office thank you and hon a district office ok thank you ladies if you have somebody we have one more testify here if you have somebody please e mail us or let us know otherwise we will be coming back to you thank you all right the last person to sign up to testify this time is albert working with been split been meeting with him and you know we're going to have this arrangement we're going to agree to disagree on places where you know it's developable but there's not enough infrastructure or it wouldn't be a good place to live i think people who live in affordable housing deserve a good place to live too so what we're trying to do is find places that we can all agree on that have good infrastructure that won't have any bad environmental impacts and let's find them we're having some difficulty because we don't have access to some of the g i s data from the planning department i've asked for that and i've been refused so that would be helpful if we could work with them i would i would just like to say that we're what we need to do first is go after existing housing stock and that includes illegal vacation rentals i mean i just did a search just now on air b n b there are over i don't even know how many there are but i think the limit is over three hundred it just says three hundred plus i don't know how many legal ones there aren't aiyah i don't think it's that high every time you do a lot of legal ones or illegal anyway i think in general there that's a low hanging fruit we need to go after that and hopefully we can do  i like some of these ideas that have been proposed i'm concerned that we're creating some more on enforceable conditions you know of saying that the unit shall never be utilized for short term or market rate rentals who's going to enforce that are we creating at additional burden on the planning department when we have laws that are unforeseeable it just creates disrespect for the law and so i think that we need to think about the kinds of things that we're going to require we need to think out of the box some other things you know he went in his tenure he developed over a thousand affordable units and so i think we need to think out of the box that includes working with developers who know how to build affordable housing and who will actually do it make the music or lose it instead of just creating the entitlement and then flipping it to somebody else we should put expiration dates on these things and and target them towards local residents in whatever way that we can even within the wiley area there was a study that was put out recently that said more than half of the homes  on maui are going to out of state buyers even within the y luko area within the affordable arrange it was over twenty percent that are going to out of state people so that  homeowners to try to buy anything and we also need to be brave i think and talk about condemning some lab for affordable housing and create a nice community on sugiura we're trying to work with different people who may be i met with mike victory you know we're trying to think out of the box and see what we can come to some agreement it is a crying need but i don't think it's helping anything to build three on affordable homes for everyone that's affordable i think we're losing ground every time we do that thank you very much thank you mr pres members any questions to the test fire i have a couple and i'm glad you agree i agree with you on a few things on there that you were talking about so the meeting today you talked about be careful on the conditions you put department is right now even a small studio is going for a normal enormously high price that i don't think needs to go for that if we could find a way to make sure it's affordable either through the housing and human concerns department with agreements they're putting things on deeds or not necessarily putting it in department of planning's lap because housing and human concerns can do things like that would that be kind of a good compromise i agree with you it's going to be hard to enforce unless there are certain agreements if it's possible as a as a homeowner i wouldn't want to be having to report to the county you know every time i rent my saying and i think when we create these structures we're creating an op for too many for people to not comply so and forstmann is really important and i think that's really key so but yes within the urban growth boundaries certainly right i think that there's room for a solution there and we'd like to be involved ok thank you thank you very much and this discussion is going to go on we're going to have a pretty lively discussion today and we want to keep everybody who's in agreement here and keep everybody in agreement as much as we can because we all agree that we need the affordable housing so thank you very much right members anybody else wanting to testify in the audience seeing nonmembers without objection will close public testimony ok public testimony is quote all right sixteen that summarized the department's ideas for increasing the county's affordable housing inventory the department's letter included a long list of things for our consideration such as amending the zoning code looking at in title projects that have been stalled to see what we can do to move them along and other methods to reduce the costs of projects the department is going to address us first and open up the matter for discussion and i think the way miss mclean and i discussed it is should go through each one each item on the list if you look on the only item in your binder the letter should go on each item in we can have comments if you have a questions if you like after each item just because we wan for scheduling this important item for discussion to be sitting with me at the desk is kathleen ok she's the division chief of our plan implementation division and she gets to ride shotgun because  if we pursue these items if we pursue these items she and her small but mighty staff would likely be the ones taking the lead on on the follow ups we do also have pam eaton who heads our long range division in the division joe also wears another had as our administrative planning officer so we have our whole squad here hopefully we can get into whatever areas of discussion this might lead us when the governor issued his emergency proclamation last year we pulled together a large group to have a brainstorming session we had deputies or directors from housing water public works finance as well as a number of senior staff to get together and brainstorm with the goal being how can we get inventory fast we've heard that from council members council member victory no has been saying it quite a bit lately we need inventory so how can we get inventory fast with the focus on that inventory being affordable but really the focus on how can we get a lot of inventory going so we brainstormed we came up with a list of  ideas we concentrated them down for the purposes of this letter and so we go through them one by one these are in no particular order of priority or importance or timing or feasibility this is just to get a good dialogue going and what we're hoping to get from today or from follow up discussions with the council is some sense of your prioritization there are eleven ideas on this on this letter certainly there are other ideas but we can't pursue eleven major initiatives all at one time you know an eleven point plan is a little too much for us maybe a two or three point plan so if we could get your guidance as to what you want to see coming back to you then we can go ahead and move in those directions the first item on the list i'll just read it real quick amend the zoning code to allow additional dwelling units per lot depending on  today we want to protect against some of the concerns that were expressed by the testifiers to make sure that we don't overload lots that there is still parking available there is still some open space on each of those allowing a five thousand square foot walk where i'm so mean they're talking to where there's already a structure and in the initial planning of the of the first structure it probably had no intention of the second structure so how do you i'm not sure how we move forward with allowing additional structures without doing something to address the setbacks what would your recommendation be with respect to the five thousand square foot lot setbacks and also would we need to do the same if we're expanding it to allow additional lots o additional structures on larger lots i am assuming will run into this some of the same challenges on the smaller lots in particular oh hot as can be attached or detached so if you have an existing structure on a five thousand square foot lot and i would agree they didn't lay out their site plan thinking that they would be able to build an ohana someday something like that they could turn their garage into their o and you wouldn't necessarily have to increase the footprint or you could increase the footprint modestly while still meeting existing step backs but oh oh how does can be attached they can also be detached but on those smaller lots i would imagine it would just make more sense to have them attached so you could create these small attached units without changing the footprint and that would be the same for larger lots as  understand a lot of this is already going on so it would in a sense just legitimize some of what already is happening and allow those to be lawful but then those that are currently in that be considered eight ohana you know like they have a lot of these homes the footprint of the lot doesn't change a lot still the same size but they build these bigger two stor units which is known as the mega mentions of central maui but there really are four four families who meet i'll see what it's rental and or ownership partnership so would that be considered ohana if you build up or is that extending the home you have but that could also be a no honna it could be an attached ohana a separate unit upstairs upstairs and ties into  care whites question because generally the first floor set back would be a six foot setback right the second floor would be a ten foot setback so one smaller lots you might be somewhat limited as to how big that ohana would be if it were built on the second floor but yes i know how they can be the upstairs or the downstairs or side by side chilled out because much more easier for people who have the smallest reach that year to be able to you're right i have sent inventory inventory inventory and you know as a business person they'll tell you when you've got more human dorie did demand prices drop basic business one on one so i think it's time we start working towards that direction because all they were us all of us the rules are not going to be a political will on this we have policy and you functional running for office again are going to find this to be the biggest issue where you go and when you talk to place i do have a concern and it's a strong concern and there it is with this limitation that we're writing in here that this has to be rented to family or low income people i'm sorry but if you want to talk about creating an unenforceable law here we go again why what difference does it make who's going to make sure that the person in my cottage is my son or my daughter away until my mother in law remember when we were doing mother in law cottages i am more concerned about not being able to use this for a vacation rental but as far as the limitation of it's got to be family it's a nice idea it's motherhood and apple pie but first of all lot of families don't get along in the want to kids in their backyard i mean let's be honest you know i come from a generation of people that are living with grandchildren and great grandchildren and you know they're not and not about is creating another law day people are going to laugh about it and laugh at us about it because it's got to be family it's got to be low income i just don't think that we're creating and then forcible situation and i know folks already drowning in the stuff we've given you and i don't feel good about giving you one more if we want to create images and get people in homes i'm happy with that i don't mind a restriction about not giving them permits for short term rentals or whatever it is b and b s or whatever they want to do if you make it at that but i just think that creating another problem ok thank you miss by so that is an item we're going to talk about a little bit later but it is it does relate to this and just so you know the planning department suggests that there was mr carroll's bill i understand ok i do know i live in the real world on your salary yeah we'll people and a huge family   and so this is strictly just in residential ok one of the questions comments i had if you think mr brick was talking about putting a second story and making that all hot and if that's the case then they're restricted to the size aside from the setback say it's a two thousand square foot house down below and and so if it's a two story they can be slightly under two thousand square feet if there's no on it if it's in the hot it gets sucked down to the size allowed in the  site because of the size a lot is that correct that's correct the size of the ohana is governed by the size of a lot u k maybe outside of the box thinking on this one would be potentially if you have a one story you want to make it a two story and it can be bigger because the size of a lot is is small but you're not changing the footprint on the lot that that might be something that we can look at it say ok the second story can be ohana and it c potential so you can have a little bit bigger family as opposed to you know it's a say seven thousand square foot lot so they get what five hundred i believe they get a five hundred square foot ohana but if you put it on top of a two thousand square foot single story then you can have a whole second family yeah there's issues with sewage and water usage and potential parking issues but i mean is that something to look at too if they don't add to the square footage of the footprint but then would that get into i know in commercial we have floor to area  and you can always come back to this it at any time but as you can see we've got a lot to go through you're ready for the second one thank you the second item reads identify existing single family residential areas both developed an undeveloped that would be appropriate to read designate to duplex or multifamily this would both legalize existing unlawful multifamily uses and allow greater density for existing and new development this ties into very very broad and so when something comes in that looks like a kitchen to us the only thing that we can call it is a kitchen and dwellings can only have one kitchen and so what probably these things but the idea isn't so what creating a definition of what are is one thing and to us that's a very simple isolated we need a definition for this thing that we see and building plan isn't a kitchen so that we can allow them to separate from that is how many dwellings or something close enough to dwell in and do we want to allow on lots and what should we call those because to us the kinds of things that that we're hearing about oh you know the you know having your kids stay with you not completely with you but sort of with you  you know different generations of family members all living together and we need to be able to allow that and we agree with that so it's coming up with what do we call it and how do we  is that the same as single family because once you open up the residential district for example and say you can have two kitchens let's just say that for example that means everywhere in the entire county any of those homes can have two kitchens and essentially become duplexes and and i don't think anybody wants wants to go quite that far so what number two talks about is really identifying those areas where that kind of density on what initially were residential lots that kind of density is appropriate it's happening you know it's happening and that should be allowed to expand to greater areas  we have worked on some rough language on defining try plex and quad plex those are housing structures that we really don't see here all that often and we should see them and figuring out where would be appropriate places for that it's not the same as multifamily you see multifamily and you think oh a ten storey condo and that's not what we need we need a lower density multifamily so that's what item two is about to look predominantly in central and south maui in these dense residential areas and and changing their designations to to legitimise existing density and also to allow for infill and greater  the you know should be maybe rename that that zoning code in and then do it out there or does it come close to multi family and also how does that mesh with the community plans that the community plans are pretty specific in the single family designation it's a single family and duplex so to go beyond duplex we think you need to agree designate th concern but i do feel i feel that number one makes sense i think number two make sense for them to see if we can identify changes that would make some sense in i heard something that i wanted to just mention and maybe have an incumbent when she was explaining the direct deputed was explaining she kind of and this is the central was it and where we feel that a lot of this is happening already the reason i ask the question is because the growth that's occurring in places like i could i mean it's growing really really fast and i think there's going to be a huge demand for housing there world if those gets changed to rural and i don't know i hate to see super high density in those places that don't have the opposite a huge infrastructure problems there because it were all in implies rural but utilities and facilities and you have a lot of room but you don't have a lot of energy infrastructure and that will be asked to provide the infrastructure you know at what cost it's these are all the questions i'm glad they brought these up because it's not just a simple  something sounds like something simple and i would like you know praising air channeling mr victim you know i would like the public to know that it's not a simple thing and there are a lot of well what about this and what about that so the we should be limiting the review to just certain areas because if we are looking at potentially increasing the number of a number of structures on a lot it may be appropriate in some of the two acre subdivisions to you know to change of zoning to rural and allow it if the infrastructure is able to handle it so i don't i don't think we should be limited to one one type of area or only thank you ok thank you mr victory everything dead in its tracks so i'm not trying to say you don't want pain and the other part is the people up there have this strong calls to see keep country country and let's be realistic on what they're wanting to do in town or central maui and salt my way there are a number of dynamics water is not as big an issue our sewer system and everything it's more connect the world everything is here and i understand why the department did what they did you know when they have a sore capacity problem so you know there are a cherry i has a challenge that this is really more for the purpose of building homes expediently really units expedient to be or adding to units w not what we're trying to say this can be done pretty much now others meet take some time down the road to get some of that improvement or the upgrades or the capacities levels that are needed so that's that's the way i see the department so why was not looked at or thought to think about this question no i wouldn't say that in the letter it doesn't identify specific areas  central and south where we're quite confident that that these uses are already going on perhaps in west as well we don't know that to be quite as widespread as it is certainly in central  today is to get your input in your guidance and so if this ends up being one of the items that you want us to pursue then we would pursue it with the guidelines that you give us and if the guidelines or don't limit it to any particular area look at all is eventually areas and that's what we'll do and if you want to look at it at changing agricultural areas to rural then that's what we'll do so this is really just putting these ideas out there and then getting your direction for where we go oh really we need to take multifamily and industrial designations that could be targeted for redevelopment as multifamily and again i the intent isn't to limit it to any particular area in the county  we did specifically look at a very small area in cali in the highway a new avenue area and there quite a number of properties there that are undeveloped or under developed that because of their industrial zone ings multifamily isn't allowed use and so those sites could be targeted for development as multifamily capacity at this point but a walkable definitely go out to reduce the need for using the automobile which is what we're trying to do as well and a lot of this and that could also almost be a part of a transit oriented development because that's right on a on the bus line on a bus line and then two major arteries so ok so the first two items would definitely require council action and and we might just lation on this third item we'd be looking at properties that are already intitled for that use so that would require you know various efforts from the administration to find the property owners to to learn more about these particular sites how they're being used now why why they're not developed more and to try to figure out how they could get  developed and the other questions for these for the side of ok pretty seems pretty straightforward straightforward but not necessarily correct ok number four identify lands with single family in multifamily community planned as the nations and change the zoning state designate to complete their entitlements so this is right there where various community plans have up designated lands that remain whether it's agriculture or rural or if there is a residential land that's now multifamily on the community plan to proactively change those designations so they are fully entitled and could be developed so those certainly would come to council if so that is to kind of like comprehensive zoning then yeah ok but  sing just on residential correct not on business or industrial yeah any questions yes chair white i think from a housing standpoint that makes a lot of sense but i think it also makes some sense that once we complete our plans that we go to we change the designation of the state level and and from its only perspective to make it make it across the board  change my state i want to change my zoning to residential and they have some sort of site plan which isn't required at the change in zoning level but often they have it because you folks want to see that before you prove the zoning you want to have an idea of what's going to be built there and you put conditions on it related to traffic improvements or whatever it might be with this kind of effort it would be this broader initiative and so it would be you wouldn't have that that level of detail that you typically see when properties come one by one so that is a challenge for this is that it it is somewhat more open our one or two or three r s zero what what do we change the zoning to so unless we get all the dollars to say where you think you want to do it will change it to what you think and then when they come in with their final plans i initial change in zoning so that anna and i would have to ask probably corporation counsel or mr carroll and his community generally with a change of zoning we have a unilateral agreement that has to be signed as well if there are conditions if there are conditions there's only if there are conditions tripped that's the second issue that's that's the other issue is that we can't add conditions if we don't know but if we have a  mean in an ideal world when you have certain types of zone in you have conditions that go along with that zoning right rather than providing the council target practice and so i think you know i think there's a level of which level at which we could change the zoning as long as the department has those conditions in place for all of that all of those specific types of  zoning they want to change from that they want to go from are one or two or two are one that's when they're exposed to additional conditions because they're changing it correct and in a way that is not included in the comprehensive change so it's not that we would be giving up having conditions applied to the zoning just that they would be known when that comprehensive changes made agreed there are i don't think we have a lot of conditions that we put on residential mostly business because generally will say oh is that be too zoning but we'll let you change that zoning except  to put a gas station in there we don't want you to put this so we would restrict further what the zoning requires i don't know that there are that many uses in residential that we would necessarily want to restrict the other conditions would be you know you've got to do this kind of sidewalk or you've got to do this kind of part and if those are what we want to do as far as the zoning is concerned then that should be part of the zoning code time the land owner has to go to state district boundary amendment if it especially if it's over fifteen acres then change in zoning or talking at least three four maybe even five years  fine and dandy but there's gotta be something in here we're in the end if we're expediting and you expedite those homes not yeah we got everything just put on the market for some other you know big wig to come on by and buy up this land vacant for from land banking i ran into mister at the break and he had a really good idea that we should consider that you know just throw it out on the table and size in a pretty much in our one the only thing that would be different would be if they wanted to go to zero a lot line are zero they would have to come in and do a change zoning and then if we did that do as they do in other reasonable a reasonable you know the whatever the taxes for the are our district so that is a potential way to incentivize not holding on to the land  our one at the land value know no house value there because there's no houses on there there's no subdivision so it's not fifty lots instead of one lot which would just bump up the taxes so you can do a vacant and title and lot classification kind of thing and have it really high come in and do their subdivision an actual start building right i mean because a lot a lot last couple budgets unimproved residential that class tax classification we may want to go back to that hopefully mr okama hears that because he'd be the one to identify yourself to please good morning everyone kathleen planning department i just wanted to say yes you did and i know that personally because i used to be kept on a lot that we own and then at some point  to say you want to change has only been changed and built you know would be it's it's getting old this banking for thirty forty years i know the developers it takes time to do things and there's ups and downs but some of those things maybe we should discuss in the budget and fin we are on an item five review existing untitled projects that have affordable components and that have stalled determine why they are not proceeding and evaluate if there is any county action that could be taken to get them online  this is one of the items that may not involve council action but it could if for example one of the reasons that a project may have stalled is because of zoning conditions that the applicant today's unable to fulfill it could be that project back for consideration to amend that zoning condition so this would take some research on the planning department side and if there are changes that can be made  that involve council authority then those could come to you members any questions of that chair right but not really a question but i think your comment as far as this is falls in line with  subject to a fifty percent affordable housing requirement as opposed to the current twenty five and i believe there a affordable and so having that differential when you're competing with each other for you know the creation of housing makes it significantly more challenging if you're fifteen you're competing against folks that are at ten percent and as mr victory you know said the issue here really is in the tory because we've you know we've not got the inventory that allows the prices to come down a bit when the market or when the market dropped there was a lot of affordable housing and i believe my for example with the pricing that we talk about here as being affordable is often three hundred fifty thousand and up when the market dropped a two bedroom two bath condo in key haven was selling four hundred thirty nine town and so these are items that we just we really have to review because the question is are we more impacted now by our lack of of creating inventory than we can ever catch up with by just a focus on  conditions you need to start breaking ground you know build your fordable concurrently or whatever but previous things that are on the books and now sitting be installed just pertaining to those in title mint like zoning community plan state does ignition are our permanent entitlements there's not a use it or visit component to those it has been talked about at council before but for the time being none of those have any sort of exploration projects in the special management area however do you have do you have deadlines to initiate construction and to complete construction oftentimes they do come in for time extensions we saw a lot when we had the the recession so a lot of projects that stalled that came in for time extensions so majors minors as well but  then there's a potential for the property to be down zoned if they're in breach of conditions there's also and as you mentioned some of the recent projects like the state land use commission as there was like the backbone infrastructure ten year  deadline that says they've got to complete the backbone infrastructure for the project like roads water things like that within ten years of the time of the of the change in zoning and if there was a failure then the council could consider zoning the property or at least bringing the project up for review to see where it's at so that those are those are some options down those lines but the deputy director is correct that in general there is not a an like an automatic down zoning or a something that would trigger a down zoning automatically if a certain amount of time passes from the entitlement to the you know from the entitlement it's my understanding and i thought we talked about this before that there is something in the beginning or at the end of title nineteen that says that allows five years council can bring it up and potentially move zoning i believe there's a provision i can try to look it up in it for conditions of zoning it basically says that if there is no time limit specified in that condition if they've got to be met within five years that's like the default u sually there is a time limit in that in the conditions or it'll say something like prior to obtaining building permits or prior subdivision approval things like that but at that point it's still not automatic it needs to be needs to  be done by council action right change the zoning back to its previous category  around and in reference so it's safe to say then old i guess existing projects we cannot put that sort of clock on them now because it's already been done so to speak in entitled in all this stuff if they're fully in in compliance with all of their conditions then yeah they'd have the change and zoning would be would be done provided there they're not in compliance frighted they're in compliance with other conditions yes generally i mean there might be other i don't want to speak broadly for every single possible project i mean maybe there is something but in general the change is only as a legislative act so the council society we're going to change is owning from this to this and so unless the help i mean if the council is to go and look at changing it to something else the question would be does the person have certain vested rights where they've put money or or relied upon that change in zoning to to the point where changing it back would be would be illegal so we need to look at that for for certain projects that's the general rule but again i don't i can't speak for every single project in the county there might be certain circumstances that we can look out for each for certain projects intervene and stop the retreat how do you deal with that you know and that's where the real challenge has been far more than water far more then like kawai me where you get a never mind what kind of system until the to exhaust everything or they get their way and that's what really is the challenge as far as putting tying restrictions you know soul i'm all for putting some kind not fair to the developer or or to whom ever is trying to put that project that's not on it's like you want to build something and i know i don't like it and five years down the road you still waiting to do it because i'm saying stop you from doing it and maybe you you know i like this idea in i know mr white has brought out again you know proposal to bring these people back and verify where they're at and what they need to do to get their projects going and i think it's a good excuse would be or whatever why they haven't built but they've been attacked and all that so it would be sort of like a legal thing on our part if we were to down on them or me i don't want to give people  hopper or would that be is that are you did you see that was the legal to do and i know you said you didn't want to do a blanket statement for all developments but in a general sense if there's an answer to that well it's  again it's going to depend on the case so the general hawaii law is that if you get your last discretionary permit to build that's the time in which the the government can't really take away your entitle it it could they could potentially who knows with development here you may need you may need other entitle meant after you get your change in zoning before you can actually build something that are discretionary so other than building permits you may need things like a conditional permit or part of a conditional and that case but a special permit a permit you know things like that and if those have been obtained either maybe the opportunity to to look at changing those entitlements or or a down zoning put i would proceed with caution in any of those cases because there could be a case where the person argues that their rights of vested and it's going to depend on that on that particular situation whether they can make that argument or not generally i wouldn't i wouldn't recommend just giving someone a zoning and then reversing it and taking it back at that point but you know there could be certain circumstances where we could look at that but i can't see in every single case that would be illegal to do that but it would definitely not be something you would do lightly and without a very very thorough review of the particular circumstances of the project ok yeah thank you very much what i guess the more direct question is if there were to be say like they use it  it ordinary could that be applied to past projects and not just things i'm here on out so a plan that retroactively would would be difficult that would be one thing that i don't think you should necessarily do i think you could if you want to have a general ordinance that says you have to build all in title months will be good for a certain period of time i mean you could look at that but you can't really have an automatic because it's a legislative act you're actually passing an ordinance so in order to undo that you need to pass another ordinance and go through the same process so that's that's part of the challenge there you could have you could potentially i guess have an ordinance that would bring a project like that up for review if it's not built in a certain period of time i don't know if you want to do that because the infrastructure requirements for one project may be a lot more extensive than another project to be built within a certain period of time so a one size fits all approach rather than doing it as a specific condition of zoning on that project you know it may be a good idea just to look at each project and say what's a reasonable amount of time for you to build the infrastructure or some other time for the you know for that to be done so i think conditioning it on an action to be performed within a certain period of time i think is something that you can you can look at ok thank you chad that circles thank you for bringing that up is that circles was back to the comprehensive zone and you know if we do that corporations as od'ing we can't put those restrict one size fits all restrictions on we we would have to really be very careful when we do a comprehensive zoning and all right number six number six identify state and county and properties that would be appropriate for the county to read designate for affordable development we would certainly look for  undeveloped or underdeveloped properties with no particular play and for county or state use within the growth boundaries within the plan group area boundaries or at least adjacent to them  and that would be something where the county would most likely do a solicitation for a developer to come in and develop a project you know the scope of that solicitation would be you know how many units we would be looking for what price range we would be looking for whether it be sales or rentals and i would imagine that at various steps in the way this would  also involve council action ok members i certainly have a question on you know we had the opportunity and i think we still have the for three acre lot over here buy food land and get fourteen or so acres or fifteen acres i believe their land has that gone away it's going away ok because i would have been a developer it's gone away or ok it's gone that would have been a good opportunity to do both and we can look for some of those opportunities but that might be a  like this because it will cheer i understand your point in seeking out people landowners but if we are ready have it that's one cause we don't need to worry about right you know and possibly all these lands county o and then install infrastructure that we can do and from there or had it to develop a builder or if there's a way i don't know the owner builder style of subdivision i know lot in pine did that for their employees that worked out well each person built to what they could afford but all the infrastructure is put in place from the roads the sidewalks you know sewer it whatever and it it works that way so i would love to see perhaps this county take a look at something like that but i still trying to get word on where are those county own properties especially i'm trying to focus of course in west maui in particular and where could we perhaps do something like this  er discussion so i like this one in particular i think we could probably move on this a little quicker in a sense because we really don't got to rely on outside entities just ourselves as county lands in our own built infrastructure i thought i saw you want to ok you everybody flinches yeah well all right number seven require developers to develop their affordable units do not allow cash in lieu of creating affordable units if there are affordable requirements a political to a project and this would also relate to credits to thought behind this is that you know the idea of credits or cash in lieu is is an understandable one but we need houses and so that was the that's rocking there just if there's going to be a requirement the requirement is that it gets built and you can talk about the concurrency part  around three point eight million in lieu fees for affordable in particular with so it's been sitting and here we are saying we need houses but this money's been sitting and we have not physical actual structures so i'm definitely in support of build actual structures and i always go back to this story working at my hotel that was for their workforce there their workers and i was you know i rented there and i worked at the hotel and it worked well it's still there anything that i think truly makes sense it's their structure reform your head a place that you get up go to work for the company and it's it's a great program i believe so we about the idea of putting together more of a panel discussion for the that would involve the development community because we don't want to end up with if we pursue this sort of idea which again is another one of the  ideas that would require council action to change existing affordable housing requirements to get feedback from the development community so that the result of this would be no housing  whatsoever you know because the requirement is too high that if they have to actually provide the units you know if it's not fifty percent it anymore but even at twenty five percent if they have to provide the units does that make the project no longer pencil out be get some input from the development community in how to proceed this one in those kinds of legislative changes  number eight provide a tax incentive for developers to create affordable rentals do not tax them on the improved value which gets passed along to tenants as long as the units meet affordability criteria i think this idea came up when the the affordable rental project in a move forward that there was that idea on how they were struggling to keep the rents low but the tech being taxed on the improved value so so members any comments questions by thought on that too is especially on the key when there's there's an agreement with again the department of housing and human concerns and so they're they're keeping an eye on that number nine provide no interest or low interest loans to developers of affordable projects for their off site infrastructure and or on site construction that's allowing the developers rate of return to be narrower and banks typically require since the county does not need to see a profit this is getting a little bit out of my comfort zone but the limited time that i did work in the private sector on the development side  very early on in a project you you have your pro forma and you have to show a certain return on your investment to get your financing and obviously that includes all of your costs and then what you expect to the revenue you expect from your sales and those construction costs being the on site or off site infrastructure in construction if you can reduce that or have that be potentially a use for affordable housing funds because it can be paid back with you know with interest or slight amount of interest and we can then we've all that or can we even set up well and looking at something like that so i mean church is something we can look at the u k and maybe staff we can put a question to is it something that you'd want to question in writing or just look at here or if it's that's actually been done i mean it doesn't have to be you know in writing we can you can preview it along with whoever else would be involved i would include who do you know are going to finance budget as well as any can we can move on that and that we can get in at a lower price we put the infrastructure we get the money back because paying off the bond and also the taxes that come along are p t so it's a win win situation there are many many met this weekend this is a good suggestion understand why you feel uncomfortable but i think there's other methods that can be inclusive of this and that can find us some again expedient way of getting housing built projects it would be you know a modest break but it could have a result on the from the sales price often times when you get into it when each project those parks fees as well right well this would this would require legislation so you folks would determine at that time what you what the criteria would be for a project to be able to benefit from that kind of reduction  you got a lot i know i have a lot and i'd like to keep it that way though i mean i don't want the needed to cure that you know i have it in what we especially have condos that don't have all this additional parks and we 're lacking county parks itself the poor kids they got their say to make shift basketball courts in the party you know i mean you know it's dangerous and they need cif places to recreate so it's important that we it's a hard one because i know where the goal they were trying to find here is to make prices affordable but the upshot of it is if we do all include these things in the cost of building then drove through all these towns at every turn we drove to because we're in the pier no we kids are not in school every park with kids and they were all playing whatever it is they were playing and you know there were all kinds of activities we're we're to these kids to recreate it we've got to get them out side we're hearing that they're not physically fit because they're not running around doing the things that we did and so i have a real concern about this  as park but maybe not wish mowing maybe a country maybe in other areas i would have to see that would have that challenge so i would see i like the idea but i'd probably like some of the other ones earlier you have to you any further comments ok last one last one number eleven and then the workforce housing ordinance so that developers receive one hundred percent credit for the affordable units that they buil incentivise yeah but you know members are going to take a little bit of privilege on this one the whole idea of credit is you know you're required to build right now twenty five percent affordable homes so if you build fifty percent you get credit for twenty five percent so that somebody else doesn't have to build them because the majority is there but to give somebody one hundred percent for something they're required to build i can't see that at all i think that's i don't i don't yeah that might be an incentive but that'll take away the affordable housing because you're going to build one hundred homes and then anybody else that didn't get well received but that's all right that's right members so we we went through now that we've seen each one any comments overall mean any weird surely are the huge red tape roadblocks for your developers out there that just simply you know this is is there like something across the board that's really hindering the progress of these types of experiences from my experience it was the uncertainty of the entitlement process how long that might take and that you don't know what you're going to end up with and what kind of restrictions you might have  then the the carrying costs of the land during that time so you put in an offer for a piece of property or or you do your due diligence on a piece of property and you sketch out a project and you say ok if we you know sub divide this into ten lots and create ten homes this is what we should be able to sell them for and then you say well ok if we if we buy that land we're going to be sitting on it for two three four five years before we can even break ground and so therefore you know we have those carrying costs added to the construction costs  plus the uncertainty you know you need to be able to sell those units for a high enough price that you'll be able to get lending and so it's the time in the uncertainty are the or the big ones and  maybe that's that's why a lot of these suggestions to focus on the entire mint process to take that time an uncertainty away so in the lands intitled and leaving it so up to developers to come up with their with  developer development plan i think getting the feedback from the development community mr dewey earlier said that his group put together a panel to talk about affordable housing ideas you know involve some of those folks to and even even folks from the construction industry to talk about what their costs are like these days whether it's lieberman or it's bringing in materials you know what adds to the cost of a home being so high back in the day you know then you had affordable builders such as our resume my brothers and misunderstand frankel spoke about them my mom still lives in our zoom zoom home built well it's thirty whatever years later still going strong and it was it's affordable and people are still in them today you know but the land and everything was built was was you know in conjunction with county and what have you and it was a collaborative effort that built these places so i really don't see that part happening anymore these big landowners are actually you know they're building the high end things especially in west so there's sort of a disconnect within that that's  and developed a little more than twice the number of units with the same basic home funds that we received and we generous and so we wanted to hear from her but she was advise by corp counsel that if she if she appeared before our committee that she would be disqualified from taking part in an r f p on a county project so i'm just i'm just throwing that out because it was a shock to me that we couldn't have somebody come in here and share their experience and their knowledge with us so that we have a much better understanding of how we can move forward in a way that generates more units for the amount of money that's available and i just find it really troubling that by assisting us in the process of getting in a better understanding of what works and what doesn't work that that person would be disqualified from participating so we're going to need to identify what the issue is there before we put together a panel but i think a panel is a great idea  n so just one little red flag and one of the things that we could also could do i know i hate to form another group but we can do a tig off of this committee and involved like people like mr franco somebody from that maybe because it's a you know in the public but maybe that person can come because it's more  of a private kind of thing and have a huge discussion to go through these eleven things prioritize them in what they feel is important and drill down into these things and say ok what specifically can we do for this this and this at least come up with the top three and see what we can if we have to change the laws if we have to if we can do that but if we try and do this in this format it's going to take months and months and months and i would say if we can do some sort of can do you know two months just focus on it and get some of the groups that are heavily involved already so they can sit and talk and free flow of information i don't know i would something and then come back to us and say here's the choices and here's what we need to do planning do what you can do would be very interested in working on it let me know by that for the next meeting yes i wanted to say something well this is the matter of the on the floor today about developing affordable housing and some of the barriers to it we face i'll give you an example this is real i have a property mark will have a house on it and i have a storage building built it was built for storage at the and all of his lumber into losing god knows what else nine hundred square feet permit it well that was a long long time ago and sherman has been a handyman for years and now we are approaching both of us retirement and it would be care at all but i went to see what would be involved there and they said it's forty feet too big so you have to cut out forty feet it's on a cement base and it's got a roof and everything so in order to do that you know what that's going to involved pick up forty feet and the reason is that big it's because it was it has a little like garage thing attach a man in the building but if we take that out there goes the roof and whatever ok so they said if you want to do this you go to be v a so i went and picked up an application and when i saw what that application involved i said to my husband i'm sorry but it will continue to keep garden  tools and old old tires and anything else said he can find then my husband likes to keep things you know that his business all his life but what we would have liked to do was to turn it into a place where maybe we could move into the smaller part of and  one of our kids could move into the front row if we would have somebody on the property as we get older and we might need some help not that we you know we were looking for rental or whatever but it could be in the short time while we are still able to function but you know it's good it's getting there we're getting there and we're not unusual there's a lot of people like us who are getting older and who might be able to get out of their big house and then give it to a family and then a family would have a place to live  three things right you take care of us and you take care of a young family to me this is providing housing and promoting in a hurry but if i've got to fill out all of those papers of b v and get help to do it in spend a lot of money i am not ready to do that and so it's going to sit there with paint cans and lumber or whatever else we have stored in there and i know that i'm not alone i know that there are a lot of other people that have similar situations so to me to look at what we're requiring people to do and that's a lot of people don't do it and it's just we've got to be more practical and it's got nothing to do with changing zoning and all this stuff to me it's a very practical situation but the only way to solve it is to go through this crazy process which i'm not ready to do so i think that you know we better look carefully at alternatives  alternatives because i think it could be handled very quickly ok thank you miss carter and i had just brought up that very point the conversation of the beginning of our recess and i fordable units on larger parcels there's a side of me that says hey this is my property and as long as i'm doing something safe is it really wrong for me to do piece i think the thing that is really said is that we're not going to build anything new it's been there for over forty years right you know i could see if we're going to deny bad guys maybe that's a problem but that been there for over forty years is not bothering anybody all we're going to do is well enough inside today it becomes a little cottage which is very simple but we're not going to change anything we have going to create more traffic think comments from the members of the department so department thank you very much for coming up with these things i think it's well worth the discussion we had today now we  the you know the thirty thousand foot level now we're going to drill down and i think i will certainly put the to go on the next meeting and maybe we can get this sooner rather than later to help facilitate this discussion where it's only it's already quarter till twelve i do want to say that i want to work on this i think it in  between you know we set up the tig and then we can talk about this because it's something we can do fairly quickly i don't think it affects the list i mean there are some pieces on the list that will this will help so i'm willing to go with that and then we can talk about because in light of some of the comments we got one of the testifiers comments today about funding for single family homes a number of kitchens and things like that i'm going to get some more information from that and i believe they also fannie mae has a definition of what bars you won't like the definition from what i understand it is but  essentially their definition is if it's a full size refrigerator and there's a stove it's essentially a kitchen everything else is a weapon so if you're ok with that kind of decision you know if you need to be a little bit more detail we get it we got to discuss p c thirteen sixteen the a lot more so that's my understanding and we will bring these two items up with the other one again and we can actually at the next meeting i hope to really drill down into p c twenty eight for sure and maybe even p c sixteen  in light of this discussion it cetera so if that's ok with you guys since it is getting close to one's time anyway i'd like to defer p c twenty six to twenty eight and sixteen with no objection  so those two items are deferred as well and that being said we will come up with some ideas and that agenda that is very similar to this but we'll throw the to go on the agenda and then move forward from there i want to thank everybody for a great discussion i want to get this moving sooner rather than later and hopefully we can get this get some more people on board and board together as several members of the public testified it's time to start working together so i'm going to put them to the task too and say ok if you want to do that let's do it right any further comments saying none thank you staff thank you departments