it please the court the county's longstanding practice of opening its sessions with an invocation it squarely with a centuries old tradition recognized by the supreme court in march phrase whatever the precise needs and bounds of that tradition under the constitution this case does not require this court to engage in difficult line drawing because  supreme court and this court have a stablished the three principles that we believe require judgment in the counties faith in this case first while this case was originally brought as a challenge to the sectarian content of the prayers the supreme court's intervening decision in town agrees conclusively forecloses that argument by holding that such prayers are well of the prayer giver is ok you're i think that the answer to that question is that worth and in part to and of of justice kennedy's majority opinion for the part i think the court certainly made clear that is  fine perfectly fine because they are not because of some the store price necessarily but just because they are and there are certain distinctions and caviar's correct that's certainly one o evidence of any of that this case no more time that the prayer be everard's or using prayers to try to proselytize course is it really evidence of that it's no your honor and in fact i think it's whether it is a chaplain selected and paid for who serves as an officer of the legislature as in march whether it is a volunteer cliched either way either it was a legislator or speed or for somebody government chose to rotate the prayers among their peers just like the government in march chose to hire a chaplain just like the government in town agree which affects the lives of all citizens not just the members of one and it's this combination maybe the cases out there but the combination legislators themselves the prayer is directed to the legislators and i think if anything your honor to the extent that is concerned our case the facts of our case are even easier then a town of gree where the volunteer clergy would actually come in and face much as i am with you now would face the audience with or behind him or her angela or the invocation here it is it is  hasn't think they certainly would be an audience just like and town agrees it was the audience and just like in march there were the spectators the spectators and the galleries so we don't just be there an audience think that the critical issue for constitutional purposes is where the where the beer is directed  present will understand you the only way to truth in life and all that could be seen under the supreme court criteria for coercion or proselytizing is that correct doubt that's taken into account i rowan county time and again exemplifies the practices that town of police warned against washed it was the best example in the record of coercion from a prayer or proselytizing in your opinion so prayer that make sure that i understood them based on my understanding of his question yes your honor i think that that would be acceptable it's also quite distinguishable you didn't leave i didn't you wouldn't hear that at the practice was given by the members of the made it clear that we are praying for your guidance for us as a council to be effective for the people that you lead us to make the right decisions the challenge to that your honor as long as the contents of the arguing that a simple missed will that they are only christian prayers being given correct correct or you are concerned because you think that's what town of greece means controlling opinion from town of greece says that  you don't challenge the fact that the legislators give prayers and they give prayers all of them christian prayers as long as those prayers don't cross the line the proselyte proselytise advance to november sixteenth two thousand and nine and this was commissioner paul stated in this is again an excerpt of the prayer in question please pray with me have only father all too often we have not recognized the mission you would have us to do to transform our small portion of the world through your will we have trusted or wisdom instead of the wisdom of the holy spirit may we always seek your will above or will may we always pray for not a strictly internal practice further the commissioners themselves have stated very plainly that this is not a purely internal practice commissioner barber stating that the prep practice has been a tradition for the about this in public and about this prayer practice and he said i'm not perfect so i need all the help i can get and asking for guidance for my decisions from jesus is the best that i and  are in a number of different forms there is first of the chair of the county commission calls on those in attendance to stand for the prayer and the pledge then subsequently the another commissioner delivers the prayer requests this court has also said that directions include invitations in the simpson case but that's just requests to be treated to be included if you want to be because he said different case and not a strong case in this case we don't just have please pray with me or let's pray to god we also have elected officials embracing the fact that this prayer opportunity is for the benefit of the by the public that elected officials at no point indicated prayers were for the public and that it was exclusively an internal practice and justice kennedy was clear about the legal significance of those i think it would be a very different case of all we had was please pray with me or let us pray but what we have here is the elected officials explicitly and unequivocal embracing that this is a prayer practice that is for the benefit there's no change the hypothetical hypothetical is you offered prayer cross the street and you say and also bless and protect and lead our troops in afghanistan and there were fifteen troops from f l afghanistan o i just changed hypothetical because you said because of the audience and i said well why do you have fifteen troops from afghanistan and afghanistan are truth well homilies when the audience does that change your answer is an unconstitutional  troops over help our troops do right and bless them in afghanistan you said that was not a problem because the troops were not in the audience i'm suggesting it was to take the same hypothetical and some of those troops are in  in the audience does that change your constitutional view of the program i think that is constitutionally significant your honor that in they all that is a constitutional and not constitutional i believe that that would be constitutional under the facts that you have provided also you are not so or is doesn't matter to the audience doesn't matter it is how many issues have to be there for the audience to make but there's not a call for them to participate in these prayers there's but in this case there have been instances where it's much more on a no no no just in this question yes i can tell from your discomfort you don't answer it why is that so and leads me to think maybe i'm wrong it leaves me to think you concerned about your constitutional approach to this question i could be wrong on tell me up front so you can answer the question right well the audience is relevant to whether there is impermissible coercion is a very fine statement as with established i twenty thirty forty troops are present for that prayer does that make the prayer if you repeated that two or three or six times would that make it unconstitutional no your honor i don't think that that in of itself would make it elected officials legislate towards the commissioners giving the prayer and then picking someone to give because that is an educator who is about to make a decision the words that they say we've decided that we pick somebody miss mitford right there reverend jones is go what is troubling to me is how many nations of legislative prayer was every single prayer being  another case out there with a combination of legislative prayer directed exclusively with references exclusively to one to one face time after time month after month is called on to participate where the prayer is for the benefit in part of the public whether the elected officials who are delivering these prayers or honors there's only certainly been no effect unlike the us other than this case there was direction and invitation and praying for divine guidance for the audience that that was in permissible pursuant to the stars do you think that we had dictates responses yes your honor i think that window is not a town  know might be that there is no distinction because in the course of two hundred plus years it's a well written tradition in town of greece there was recognition that there were invitations by the clergy to participate in the prayer say there are records legislators themselves in that case town of greece references very similar examples of solicitation to what transpired here are taken for a given by justice  court and other courts feeling bound by dicta and county of allegheny written read read the tradition to exclude sectarian prayer and entirely i think that maybe one reason that you don't see and center of our christian faith the knowledge the saving sacrifice of jesus christ on the cross we draw strength vitality and confidence from his resurrection and easter we pray for peace in the world and then to terrorism and violence conflict and he goes body or in a board of supervisors or whatever of invariably of referencing the same so there's a legislature there or do the of people reaching out where you have a combination of the entire like the body of a municipality referencing one and only one face time after time there's from the beginning and he cited some prayers and said there are more what he said in response to that that has to be something we have to consider and yes your honor i think any fair reading of the record there is no prayer in our record that is worse more proselytizing more denigration than the prayers approved and in town agrees and arguably less i think two goes on respectfully your honor i disagree i think looking at looking at the parts here there is no if anything i i would think it would provide comfort because there is no longer any question that sectarian prayers permitted there is no longer any question that even if the prayers overwhelmingly reflect one faith tradition that does not run afoul of i don't think in light of the history that there can be any serious question that prayer by legislators somehow falls outside their tradition so if you're honest question about the legislative course and we know that it cannot possibly be that that