hello everyone welcome to the september tenth two thousand and thirteen planning commission meeting we have just a few things on the agenda and they will be open for public comment at that time just so you know we do not have minutes to approve tonight so we'll move on to i am number three which is communications from the audience this is a time for someone to come forward and discuss bring up something that is not on the agenda tonight and if anyone would like to do that now is the time you know all right next item number four is unfinished business and table items which there are none number five new business letter a request to rezone fifty one and sixty one country club road from the r one one family residential district to the r planned residential development and covenant development is the applicant and the applicant like come forward if that is in your special guidance from the commission or if that's acceptable if you need to introduce that as will i will i'll just state letter b if that's ok and then we'll address both of them the same time  requests for development plan review and approval for the sixty villas of holland condominium development and covenant development as the applicant for that so if you like to do your presentation and having just joined me is the owner of covenant developments and president peter engels who had some car issues on the way over but has made the meeting on time for us you feel better about this don't y am here with jason vader cody our engineer from fischbeck engineering as well as dave called in our council and we are absolutely thrilled to be here tonight to present our refined p r t insight plan requests for the villas of holland we will keep our presentation to the twenty twenty minutes requested by staff and we look forward to hearing any comments and answering any questions based on the thoroughness of this application process to date we were not surprised at all by the great amount of detail in the eight page staff report in fact since our very first meeting with city staff last november it was made clear to us that a project for the abandoned golf course site would would have heavy detail and it was a sion to ensure a great fit for the holland heights neighborhood everything from the density and the scale of the homes themselves to granting public access to green space park has been reviewed by staff the staff report also chronicles the specifics of how our previously submitted concept plan and now full application exceeds the p r g zoning standards impressively mr vander plute mr meyer and a representative from the planning commission have all toured our most recent zero step community and have seen firsthand the type of community that we propose for the village of holland as a result of this detailed application process tonight we are presenting a very refined plan that includes input from neighbors who met with us city staff and planning commission comments from the february or january and february meetings from the very beginning of this process our goal has been has been to become a valued member of the holland heights community we share the pride and appreciation of such a wonderful area in which to live and we truly believe in being the best neighbor that we can be to achieve that goal we began our neighborhood outreach process with an f a q letter about the project i also personally called all the adjoining neighbors that would be directly impacted by any site work performed and offered to me and or answer any questions they may have we then met with all those willing neighbors onsite and have come to polyphony agreements on landscaping and buffering measures based on their individual needs and requests as a brief overview for the planning commission and audience i wanted to review who covenant development is what we build and who lives in our communities covenant developments is focused on building a product that allows its residents to escape to a new lifestyle by giving them a home and community with the zero step freedom to enjoy life without concerning themselves with the normal responsibilities and limitations associated with owning a traditional single family home or best exterior design best kitchen design best floor plan and best site harmony from the home builders association of greater grand rapids additionally our patented single level designs create privacy community and walkability of holland will also have its own clubhouse for the enjoyment of its residents and features a fitness center how do you know outdoor heated pool fireplace and what we call the community living room where lasting friendships are formed this zero step approach not only offers a community that complements the surrounding neighborhood but truly improves the quality of life for those who live there are top two demographics or what we call active adults which we define as fifty plus pretty and post retirees and single against meeting divorced or widowed all predominantly with no school age children at home  residence typically come from the home that they raise their families in and no longer have school age children at home aka the empty nester as a result their current single family home no longer meets their needs in short or typical buyer has on their current single family home for fifteen or more years is looking to downsize but not necessarily downscale and or to eliminate stairs either for immediate or future needs we refer to this as aging in place they do however want to keep their same friends doctors and churches there are in fact looking for a different stage of life housing and we prefer to stay in holland however with no  o step communities in the city and nearly one third of its residents fifty years old or older many residents can be forced to leave the area and they and the area which they've raised their families and have their careers or communities allow its residents to continue to live in their homes when permanent or temporary physical setbacks occur by preserving and improving independence finally zero step communities foster the ability for different generations to live in close proximity of each other such as allowing grandparents to live near their grandchildren single family home neighborhood school resulting in the enrichment of three generations of heights residents in closing i would like to share that we take great pride in being a part of the communities in which we build we also believe that by working together throughout the planning and zoning process the villas of holland will truly become a valued part of the holland heights community by housing its longest standing residents with the under served stage of life housing that brings me to the plan that we are going to present this evening with that i will turn it back over to mr thank you peter for the computer here to be running two computers so bear with me so i can do the presenter notes and screens concurrently i'm going to talk to mark some more tonight about the specifics of the p r t proposal going to focus on the allowable density p r benefits some of the engineering components that answer some of the technical questions that we've heard it going through the process specifically with regard to the soils in geotechnical information on the site a little bit about the traffic measures in fast subject property for the site is located on the corner of legion park and country club drive we are part of the original holland country club one hundred twenty acres of that is now out of the county parks adjacent to the fifty acres of holland park we originally prepared reviewed this was this opportunity with staff back in january february as peter mentioned and provided a conceptual plan to determine if the suggested used building types in density was allowed by the master plan at that time the planning commission evaluated our concept and approved the type of housing scale of housing in the density five to zero if i can read the quote here for you stephanie pines that this housing type is compatible with the one family residential planning designation for the subject property and that is compatible with the narrative portions of the master plan and the development record shows that the planning commission the city council have approved other single family attached developments in areas does it needed for one family residential districts so w h that direction we proceeded forward and we prepared what we know or what we call a buy right plan if we were to do if a developer were to develop this property receive a laser but the area what i'm going to call the forested ravine area in your packets you can see how we could put a road across the regime with a call over but i don't need to dwell on that additionally if we were to develop the so we've already dropped from seventy six units possible to sixty eight units in order to conserve that would ravine we've also clustered the units in the open areas of the home country club site in order to facilitate that same objective you'll notice let me just talk to some of the general features of our site plan for you we have sixty eight units in one thousand buildings and one clubhouse so as i'm talking to the specific let me start again affects ok we are proposing to have one thousand buildings and one clubhouse for a total of twenty on a single loop to private drive twenty four feet wide and that will access country club drive and legion park at the intersection of those two streets that will be the sole access point for the development we will not be reusing the existing country club drive instead will convert that location to a single residential driveway for the resident  primarily for unit buildings although we do have four to you know buildings so that's the general overview of the site plan with you'll see there's a proposed connection to bachata green space as well will access the sidewalk to be available to all people in the area our current proposal is yes and i'll talk a little bit more about that in just about control over the grading of the site and one of the ways that we do that is by having engineered slopes which are can be and can be left natural our proposal is to do both of  those these are both examples of hills and existing communities that are consistent with some of the slopes we're proposing on this another benefit of the p r t proposal is buffering adjacent property owners as peter mentioned we've met with the impacted neighbors bertie lane and who are willing to meet with us and have come to a tentative understanding of meandering landscape berm with some vegetative cover as well as a long country club drive the project as well as at the entry way points and that is not only something a p r but something that only a p r do you can with with a buy right plan you don't really have an opportunity to mandate landscaping or buffering or tree preservation for that matter we also provide interior sidewalks for the residents to use from the general overview on the engineering this is where it gets a little bit dry a sober with me my cup of tea we have met with you and have worked water sanitary sewer and electric service for the community we've met with the city engineers office and worked out storm water and access management for the community current code that's been adopted and the police have reviewed our proposal from a public safety and serviceability perspective and i'm confident that we've satisfy their needs or mark will make us aware if department and have come up with what we feel is an improved storm water solution will we'll be doing some pretreatment and additional overland vegetated swale to try to provide a better higher level of protection of our storm water discharge into the river issue question has come up on a number of occasions with the floodplain on the site and with the springs that have been identified it certainly cations on the site and we have as fischbeck is not a geotechnical firm we've site and evaluated the site for us next slide and have provided a report that we were able to get a copy of today i have not submitted to mark as a lot some of the information is proprietary for our products but some of the information is certainly a plausible for this commission and their understanding of the site and i'd like peter if you could jump back to slides for me we have in that report what we call a transect which shows a cross section of boring us from the top of the hill to the bottom of the hill and what we found is actually a very very stable stiffed a very stiff clay that's in underlayer and then there's a little bit of sand perched on top is that the underlying soil is very stable for building homes on and for working with equipment and we just need to make sure that we continue to pass that groundwater through and so we've worked with saws and structures in order to accomplish that and if you could jump for slides for me peter this one sure ok let's go back to the page for that if six seventeen is the jump ahead of slides are you leading edges at six fifteen and then grades up from there to the back just pick a point on that building you know your survey mark ridge we're going to be cutting the ridge a little bit to get the road in and we'll be filling the ridge a little bit to put the home on the existing basement of the club that elevation six fifteen in our lowest building will be two feet above the going to be filled from six to twelve yes so our landscape architect has prepared a rendering depicting how that's going to work on the bottom you'll see there's a bridge with some folks on it down in the park and then we'll have a one on three and bank up to what is building for on this one building six in our in our current conversation and then they'll be a road and then on the on the tops of the profile there you'll see there is the road between building six and then another hill side up to the clubhouse so we're going to have a terrace there with the lower units at elevation six fifteen to six twenty three and then the upper terrace will be elevation six thirty to six thirty two  we were effectively filling all the way down your property line no sir we're filling to the one hundred year flood plain line which is not the proper one hundred year flood plain as to our property bold line is the property line where the contours and as the hundred year flood plain so we are not placing any fill in the femur regulated floodplain so we're not going to be influencing the one hundred year flood in the least a two more where you go on the photograph image on the right hand side is exactly what we'll be doing on that embankment the building there is unit thirty seven at the village of ada and that is a one hundred three   traffic by right traffic was seventy one units this road is currently designed to handle this subdivision and approved for this subdivision this would have a minimum of four driveways and a country club drive as well as two public street connections on the country club drive and i truthfully ate the dition indicates that nine point six trips per day are generated by a single family home and we are proposing to eliminate all four of those driveways and country club and one of those in both of those public roads and just have a private road access at that intersection tripoli indicates for condominium use that there are only four point nine trips per day and they are often at night and peak hours because of the lifestyle of our residents when they're not in florida so we are additionally the site plans been reviewed by the city engineer and he has recommended and we are in the able to creating the intersection of country club drive and region park drive as a four way intersection with a stop sign controlled in all fo directions so right now our folks without stopping through the intersection we're going to have a stop sign there for the safety of our of our residents as well as the motoring public we also have interior traffic flow measures that we put in place for our own community you'll notice in the foreground of this image in our community is a fourteen mile an hour speed limit in our residents are fairly adept at enforcing that for their point however they were fairly adamant that they did not want an access point for vehicles it was to be pedestrian only they want to be able to control the access for vehicles for the hours as well as the maintenance issues involved and so they directed us to provide a pedestrian only access road next slide please so we took a look at our site and at their trail system and came up with what we thought was a consensus for the best place to locate that path and that is as i mentioned earlier from the north end of country club drive we are providing that for our residents to use as well as proposing it for the general public and public  this allows the shortest distance from the park to an existing right of way that allows it to be done outside the regulated floodplain so we're not required to go through the d e q for permitting we are able to accomplish the five percent public access should be offered and we'd be happy to remove this from the plan if it's not desired by the planning commission or some of the concerns voiced are superceded benefits for see if we were to do that we would then just connect it up for our community to use and not the general public will leave that on the table for you to weigh you know there would not be that opportunity in a buy right plan so  t in summary it's a recap of what we run through our density matches or pre application concept our benefits a lot more comprehensive plan or engineering has been submitted to the agencies direction so with that i'll turn it back over to the to the chair thank you thank you jason this time anyone on the commission can ask questions will have a question regarding stormwater first of all i want to say i really appreciate presentation gave me a lot more information than i had previously so thank you very much thank you peter for your phone call it looks like it would be an a truly an asset to holland heights scientists have some concerns regarding storm water drainage because i've looked out for thirty two years and i know in the past thirty two years we've had two hundred year rain fall and so my concern as to who is responsible to crack this storm drainage issues should we have another hundred year brain for this development in an effort to be brief i didn't spend a lot of time  that is going to be our stormwater pretreatment basin in working with the city engineer and this particular stretch of the mcintyre river is very very close to the mecca to a lake as well as like michigan and so what he has asked us to do is to make sure that we get our water through the river before the flood hits and so we are not intending to detain our stormwater for a lengthy period of time we're trying to actually be the lead of that flood curve to beat the flood to the area with our storm water however we're not looking to sacrifice the quality of the storm water so we're going to be placing a centrally a large sand filter in the basin to run the development stormwater through before it is just charged to the north and then you'll see there is an existing drawing that particular is where that open vegetated swell is going to be that it talked about earlier so if something is to occur if if maintenance would need to occur and the private storm sewer that we are going to be constructing within the development the kind of would be responsible to maintain that similar to how they maintain their buildings their landscaping their lawns their clubhouse and their role as part of their annual dues so if there's a storm sewer issue on our side or with our system we will be responsible to maintain it as far as the larger watershed we are we have worked with the city engineer in order to accomplish the city of holland objectives and then finally the engineer has asked us to help there's a drainage issue right now at the intersection of country club drive in legion park ponding for lack of a better term and we're going to be working with the engineer to see if we can help him  from the commission i do have another question only because these drawings are so tiny and my eyes are getting old are there sidewalks on one side or two sides of your private streets  the sidewalks are going to be on one side of the private street which is consistent with our current community and and is also in general where the buildings are located because of the terracing the buildings for the most part on one side of the of the private street and because it's a forty mile an hour speed limit it hasn't been a problem in our experience for residents to cross the street to get to the sidewalk the other thing that that does for us is it really facilitates community as it as people interact they can't walk down the other side of the street past each other they walk and say hello and they really appreciate and enjoy that so that's intentional to help create a community i had a question about the with the sidewalks how wide are they going to be and how would the pathway down to the park be two questions or i'll take the first one first if that's ok the sidewalks in the community are going to be a standard five foot concrete sidewalk similar to what you have in the city of holland public streets and so you can pass shoulder to shoulder or or walk side by side in that with i guess my concern was a wheelchair  as a valid concern as well and yes you can that will be will the chair navigable but to have a person walk by a wheelchair and have the wheelchair got on the sidewalk had them pass each other was my concern ok i don't know path going down the park is still it is under discussion with the park originally we were requested to have a ten foot ten foot wide grassed walkway consistent with the walkways on our side of the river in the park is what they asked us originally and then recently they've come back and asked us if we could if we would consider to hard surface or not and they haven't indicated whether or not we they've given us multiple choices and we haven't resolved that with them  approval this evening or that the approval should we be successful in our application it would either be a similar five foot wide sidewalk consistent with country club drive in order to maintain that same the documentation and agreements and so but the kind of people living in this community i can't imagine it not being a hard surface just a curtain well and i can appreciate the perks changing request originally and their intent was that it would be consistent with the park's paths so there's also you know there's a consideration there that they wanted to be consistent with what they're doing in the park now and have a anyone else on the commission have any comments or question know all right at this point in time i'm going to open the public hearing please come to the podium state your name and address and you have five minutes up to five minutes to make comments or have questions i get somebody needs to go first i mail accuse twelve ten bertie lane we are right at the far east end of the lane there immediately let's see that would be south expressing the the ability to have access to the out of a county park there and his expressed commitment to keep the ravine natural because our property backs up on that that wooded ravine there along the south side of this development we do also appreciate the developers willingness to work with the neighbors to to minimize the impact to the existing houses i think my wife and i are in support of of this development here with a couple conditions we spoke with peter ingles the developer about some evergreen screening between twelve foot that it's currently drawn to the norse on the property line there we would like to see the south side of the remain the ravines remain to be undeveloped and look forward to to this yes go ahead it wasn't sure if this is a appropriate time to answer or not not sign going back to mr hughes comments if i may we have no problem providing that the screening matching that a step back suggested would have believed that the plan is drawn out and leaving the ravine undeveloped we can certainly accomplish those objectives with as far as the driveway in the parking question you'll notice that all of the units have  call a shared drive and there is enough room inside for either two or three cars to park depending if they go in the two stall or three stall unit there is also room outside the garage for two additional visitors which is a total of four cars per unit just for their unit when they have company and then if they have a larger gathering there's also two spaces in the dedicated turner you'll see what we call a tail on the driveway that tail is about twenty five feet or so which allows about twenty to twenty feet of parking space and then there bumper can hang over the grass a little bit still allowing their neighbors to back out and come and go during that so there's six spaces automatically for almost all of the units and then should there be overflow parking the community clubhouse will have additional spaces and it's fairly easy to walk from there we generally don't encourage on street parking and then it's been our experience and  other communities that they'll get to know their neighbors pretty well and their neighbors generally don't have a problem with having their kids and grandkids parked next door for a couple hours so we haven't experienced a parking issue at our other communities and and it's designed to accommodate i you're not going to own this property in perpetuity right entity to change that us without first talking to the city boards so if there is assurance that that will not change without your express consent and desire and agreement which are not donating it to the county or anything like that no sir we're  proposing that remain private property for the benefit of the condominium association as it currently is for the other neighbors one of the neighbors the neighbors that but up to and enjoy the views in the wildlife  thank you i do have a question regarding your parking at the community center how many spaces will be there i'm sorry this is not a number i have in the top my head audience that would have any concerns about the development or the rezoning as well i just want to point out that we're opening the public hearing for both those items travis williams and i'm the executive director of the outdoor discovery center greenway and i want to speak on behalf of first project clarity which is a important project that's been launched by our community to invest twelve million dollars into water quality restoration efforts to clean up lake watershed and one of the key aspects of that is dealing with storm water water runoff throughout the community and so i would like to strongly strongly strongly encourage you as a planning commission to really understand not only with this project but any project the impact that you're authorizing that it has on the water because whether it's a pipe being directly sent into the river or even the concept although engineering maybe sound to put water is quickly as you can into the system before the flood that is actually counterproductive to water quality measures that gets the water off the property fast and down the stream before floodwaters come but it also can speed up the amount of erosion and the amount of material that's carried and so we have these conversations going forward we have had the opportunity to talk with the group and we appreciate that sharing our concerns and kelly from the mac watershed was involved in that as well but we really really we really want to make sure that the planning commission understands it is your responsibility for this community to deal with these water quality issues and therefore you must make decisions that help regulate that and that may be difficult and it may change how things have to happen but i'm encouraging you to start thinking that way on this project and every other project that comes in front of you going forward and then lastly i also would like to say is that the connection to the green space is critical as well i think that it's a very very important aspect of it the county is the owner of the property we actually help them purchase it and we feel strongly that there needs to be a connection there and i know that that connection from the county of the expected is that if it is put in it would meet the expectation of the rest of the county trail system and by that they really referred to being a hard path i know the existing one is grass but they would like to see that be hard path as well i know that through a conversation so i think urge you to keep those two things in mind as you make decisions and thank you to these guys for meeting with us to they reached out and helped us listen to what we had to say so thank you  in my opinion and i'm not an engineer but from what i know the water quality issues that we have in this community and what our experts and people we are working with are telling us is that the goal is not to get the water quickly off property it's to hold water to let silt and other materials for a lot of it in the slowly release it into the system now that creates problems for areas because it can cause flooding so if you are going to have a development going to place you need to have adequate space to retain that that storm water and hold it so that it can release an appropriate amount of time into the system rapidly moving into the system pretty upstream floodwaters coming down during flood waters coming down that's not really the concern that i'm trying to represent here i'm representing the concern that if you let it go too fast too quickly that you add up not dealing with the water quality issues which is a very very very key factor to everything we're trying to do in this community  city hall and did endorse project clarity which is trying to clean up lake mack a tile so we better be making decisions across the board that clean up lake macca tell that answer that correctly ok if you want to answer it you know so i think you don't want to  planning staff as a capability that either it seems to me that we need to as a policy from an engineering perspective stormwater we have to make sure that we address those things if we think it's important as a community you know that not only our engineer but the engineers that are throughout the watershed those engineers that are advising the government at the watershed so i don't know that any i that's a good question question i was going to ask as well whether or not we've changed any of our engineering policies to address just the issues that travis was raising now for a few comments short jason go ahead to begin with i appreciate it very much  to provide additional air race and treatment for the water before it gets to the river which is exceeding our responsibility and minimum requirements significantly i would also like to point out from an engineering perspective that the site is currently  fairly sloped to go off course as mr martin is point and that storm water when it hits right now doesn't spend a lot of time going in the ground but rather runs off to the river fairly quickly and so i would i would contest the fact that we are speeding it up we're actually going to be running it through storm you know a sand filter in a managed and designed fashion as opposed to an on unmanaged and direct release into the river and then finally our property management company for the  niums is very conscientious about when they apply their fertilizer and i would suggest that it's going to be less impactful than the golf course fertilization program was several years ago as well as the area that the park currently holds so all in all it's far less impactful than it has been in the past than a single family subdivision would be and we feel that we've gone above and beyond to do a good job being a responsible citizen for the city for the community for the chair jason one more quick question would the sound filter ever be changed if the sand filter needs to be changed it would be fairly fairly straightforward to change typically i would expect it would change at once after construction because the sediment load from building buildings is significantly more than just having lawns and grass clippings when it's just a regular condominium community functioning oftentimes the in the natural cycles of freeze thaw penetration and biological treatment do a good job of keeping it fairly clean so i wouldn't expect it would need a lot but i would expect we would need to do it at least once a construction complete and then i would see depends on the size of the filter and the amount of stormwater you put through it so we would put a fairly hefty design on it to accommodate that monitors that once the quality of the filter once the construction is done how would the how of the homeowners association know about it was working or not working great question i'm sure that will have lots of public residents walking down the path of the park the kind of many i'm homeowners pay very close attention to their community and their property value and then the city engineer as part of the greater area would be paying attention to it because it will be part of our correction for the country required if it's not working there i'm sure that they would need to take care of it just as though one of their roofs on the units wasn't working or if a catch basin in the community wasn't working so the association is set up for that purpose and i'm sure dave called in can help public hearing is still open for anyone in the audience that would like to ask any questions or have any comments about the rezoning and about the development the proposed development three one sixty eight brooklyn ave i also happen to represent the heights city council member my concern and maybe this is more toward mark and phil is we've been before this board of the heights has been before the board in this general area a number of times there's been a number of density questions that have been posed now we've been staring at a for sale sign that says fifty six units available why the discrepancy as to up to seventy six weave why is there a discrepancy because the land because of that of a total development area why we got twenty six different twenty different you know if my memory is correct that fifty six unit i think that that was a kind of a by right plan that a previous developer from chuck skipper crossed or whatever commission members remember that  was in from the planning commission to three years ago i believe they did it by right plan so to say and thereby write planned showed fifty six units different from this one that particular plan  probably seven or eight i don't know somewhere around the rate of look at it seven ok so seven gets us about half of the way there i mean the way i mean they're the developers proposed in sixty eight right now so but they're well they're by right plans show in seventy one so yes they i think that this particular developer probably spent more time  and i mean it looks fairly accurate i mean all the lots are there now they are the minimum lot sizes but the are one district requires seventy foot minimum lot eighty four hundred square feet of area and that's what the buy right plan shows so you know from just live by right means that the developer could do that without coming before the planning commission or city council well they would have to  under the yes no they would have they would not have to come in for a zoning approval they would need to come in under subdivision ordinance and get a preliminary plat approved in a final plat or do a site condominium type development but when you're looking at that then you're not a lot of the other issues kind of fall out when you're looking at a at a platting kind of situation you're looking at the streets you know the street with so the sixty six what i mean is that the pavement the correct way yes the engineer will look at drainage issues and stuff because they're going to be public streets then but we're really as far as ilya is concerned you're just we're just looking at the are one district in ok and do they meet the minimum criteria for each and that's that's basically it mike did you have any more questions or comments ok thank you peter for reaching out in the phone call that we had appreciated that as i stated to  him as many times we've been before this board of the neighborhood has been before this board has been consistent on density we understand that they are one allows so much but we also the city as a whole has been working on infill does it match the rest of the neighborhood and i would contend that this point that it does not if you look at it there's a couple little pods there yes we did the what i'm going to call the cobblestone development type arena where it's a little bit more dance or the downtown area that's not with the heights is the density of the housing the impact of the traffic you know we can throw numbers around all day long is it going to be different absolutely i don't think anybody ever contended that there would not be anything done with this property but it's just to have it done right we've got one shot to do this and one shot only it's been vacant for a long time we want to make sure that fits in with the rest of the neighborhood never that loud and clear from the residence so if we could take that into consideration also in this discussion developer subsequently decides that it isn't economically feasible to develop but for some reason the property is then zone p r t anyone coming before this board in the future with anything that is allowed under p r t and i have read the number of items that are allowed under p r he will have to be seriously considered by this commission so i'm wondering if if if that has changed or if t and i see marvin saying yes then that i know that's the property isn't zone p r t the other question i would have is whether the developer has a time period in which they would anticipate developing this entire property or whether they would be developing it as at the demand comes for units so just whether they have some idea of how long they would take mean this developer or maybe of subsequent one would have to come back to the planning commission and get a plan approved and it would have to be you know it would have to abide by the uses that are allowed in the p r t district but we'd be having presumably we'd be having a lot of the same discussions you know i mean is is a development compatible with the neighborhood is that the densities right storm drainage traffic and you know all the same issues would presumably compatibility and mike spoke to that and i just want to express myself i've been to the development i've seen it i do not believe that it's compatible with what was intended for holland heights  i have i have no disrespect whatsoever for the developer and the work that they've done as you ride through you can tell that the community is well cared for but i do not believe that it's consistent with what was intended for holland heights and i do believe we're looking at this as an infill look at the other communities that are developing not been to ada but i've been to the river down one and there's farmlands around roofs and i made a deposit actually on the development that was going to go in on twenty fourth street we thought that was great that's that's the type of area i feel that this type of community ought to be looking at not as an in phil  the timeline question or the other right from a timeline perspective we would receiving approval we would complete our construction documents and go through our political permitting processes we would expect to begin construction as early as late december and we would knock down the clubhouse existing clubhouse permanently and then turn in the spring when the frost comes out we would build the entire community infrastructure at once and then  including the loop road and what we call the shared driveways and then we would which are the driveways between the various buildings and then the individual driveways which go between those chair driveways in the garages would be built with the individual buildings on it as the market directs and as our sales team coordinates so sometimes we face buildings and sometimes without the market help us phase and that's a dynamic process that we work with work so come next next memorial day we would look to have the site work well underway in those four built there are three buildings coming out of the ground thank you and it's a question thanks so well i believe there are two questions or will it be public and will there be parking yes it will be public it will actually be on private property and we will be dedicating a public easement to the city or to the park for the public to use use no there will not be parking in the county park has been very clear with us that their parking is on the north side by their amenities and they specifically do not wish to maintain or regulate  sidewalk if it's not legal a signed as you know for no parking or anything like that i would say that that would be allowable t anyone else in the public of the question was how close were the units p to the ravine and the answer is we will be behind the top of bank on the ravine where we can safely build the structure as shown on the drawing and i believe our tentative grading plan is  so i think if my memory serves me correctly that we have held them ten to fifteen feet off that bank just and that allows us to put our sidewalk for the unit next to it in a small grassy area clubhouse drains toward the ravine and so every time it rains there's a vast amount of storm water which heads that direction runs down the slope quickly and into the river system quickly which i alluded to earlier so as we put in our buildings and our roads and infrastructure we're actually going to be capturing that water slowing it down running it through a managed system and then filtering it before we send it to the river so our first our first point of defense is to remove the source of their ocean and then secondly as far as existing erosion if there's a spot that we're concerned about as we get out into the field and begin our construction process we would like to stabilize that slope through one of several stabilisation techniques and those depend on the specifics of the erosion for how we address it but that is correct we are certainly not interested in our buildings heading that direction  anyone else any questions or comments about the rezoning or the proposed development you didn't hit or talk about any of the lighting plans for the scenery or no it's more about site but there's been so many different things discuss cross so on this side i mean vision in probably three streetlights each of our three intersections on the loop and then our buildings have what we call accent lighting whether small downcast lighting along the individual walkways to the i have several questions one is yeah in this report here and i'm sure you probably just got a today too from our transportation services department brian white i have not received that but all three thirty ok with this all right so one of my questions i'm not sure if you can answer this but he says the number eleven the longitudinal slow on some of the areas of the private roads appears to be to access the same commercial months you may not be able to answer that today i'm able to answer that that's a fairly straightforward question ok these rows are designed at a six percent maximum which meets city of standard and you have reviewed the design with the fire department and they're satisfied with it so it is actually flatter than our current community which is an eight percent so ok we should have no difficulty with emergency vehicles and with the safety of our residents and guests ok then another question as someone was just flipping through the pictures on my screen that's right no actually i like that laura yet can you go back because i actually was looking are you going to have curves in gutters or not or you like the heights where you don't have curves and gutters because we don't in most of the heights i couldn't remember do you have curves in gutters in this development no ok that's good i actually like that one more comment is i think i remember you talking about storm drain and about putting it through the sand filter yes and then sending it down through to that with and her into the river  now ok so i missed part of that because mike you're very close ok the tube is actually going at the toll or the base of the hill where it goes into the flat river bottom flood plain area so the hill comes down the hill and then there's kind of a run out of the bottom of the slope which is a flood area where the walking path of the park is and then it goes for maybe a hundred two hundred feet and then it drops down into the river itself ok so what we're going to be doing is discharging the mentation and habitat for wildlife and there will be some my guess would be you know some plantings in there to help slow down that water flow as it goes to the river that's my question yes we've worked with nice wanted associates and accomplishes the best level of storm water quality that we can manage ok great thank you i just want to clarify that the system we designed and are proposing was at the direction of the parks department ok design ok thank you we're on camera so we got to record everything  county parks department anyone else from the audience the public hearing is still open so please come forward if you have any other comments or questions for for the sake of the residents here greg's greg's letter i refer to the geotechnical concerns on the site with the with the clays and the sands and the ability to construct buildings as i had discussed earlier and we've retained and geotechnical engineer to help us accomplish that and he has issued a report giving us some guidelines of credit here on how to accomplish that safely and successfully   specially with a shared driveway and this and the extra parking areas and so forth are snow removal is handled by a professional management company for the association so under a normal snowfall we would pl snow to the ends of the driveways in the sides of the roads and in the event that we have a major snow fall we wind up trucking it off site we provide equipment load we're going to plow snow off the end of the tail end of the tail but not off the embankment it stays on the end of the driveway before the top of slow as we talked about earlier yeah i just wanted to make sure that staff is a received for emails well actually one letter and three emails that came in and one of them was from  come and i just wanted to make sure that these are entered in the public record and staff i gave you copies of the before the meeting another one was from jim and marge newhouse located at eight country club road another one was from gary in maryland wickens and they live at twelve eleven bertie lane and the last one was received from  public hearing is still open so if anyone else any questions or comments yet please come forward patty you talk about how your other developments have yes they have i mean i don't i think the only way i can answer that is i can't specifically say whose property of ours does what i can tell you that our cost per square foot or price per square foot is the highest in the areas in which one is the only thing that i could specifically quantify based upon which location you choose so anywhere from one ninety five to two ninety five thank you ok thank you i just want to clarify that's based pricing and people finish it the way that they want and for example i'm sure we'll sell homes in the three hundreds ok that is the intent of the planning commission to vote on this tonight do you have you have resolutions before you to vote on this or are there concerns of the planning commission things that need to be included in a resolution requirements for the developer et that would that would dictate that a resolution would come at a future meeting as opposed to voting tonight just just a question of procedure a number of things can happen you can add to this marker  i don't flee answer this question correctly we can do a number of things it can be tabled it can be voted on yes or no can you and i explain this correctly but it really just and we can put stipulations on it it really just depends on how everyone on the commission feels and we i can honestly say that we take into consideration all the comments that everyone gives and the public as well including staffs recommendations of course if i could just real quickly staff is recommending that you do table both of these request and there's a lot of information yet i mean are there city engineer just got us you know information the same afternoon i haven't even been able to read that over yet the final version so i'm and i'm sure  that peter and jason want to take a look at that too there are there are a number of details i mean i'm sure you've read the reports and quite frankly i have i haven't even had the opportunity to sit down with with peter and jason and kind of go over all the details so i think i think it would be wise for the planning commission to table to possibly the next meeting two weeks from now and at that time i would hope that we'd be in a position at least to give you more information and  a good solid recommendation from staff for you because right now we would recommend a table and a lot of the purpose of having on the agenda tonight and doing a public hearing was to get public comment and just get the ball rolling  h sorry have a question that's also procedural and mark maybe you can answer this for me is it possible to rezone the property based on this development plan can those be connected in other words can we have one resolution where we resound it based on the development plan we were presented we can't really conditional rezoning well actually we can that's another whole scenario that actually the planning commission looked at this past spring potentially for this development and we kind of decided to not go that route by law is that allowed that you can connect a development with a resounding yes yes state law does allow for that i guess i would i would state again though i mean we had a discussion about that this past spring planning commission did and at that time you kind of decided well should the developer come back actually with an application you would probably want to be looking at more of a p u g or a p r type situation so that's what they're doing i would just add if you may recall from that earlier discussion that's a it's a tool or technique that we haven't used yet and there are some procedural issues that we'll have to iron out to get to the point where we're able to use that if you want to i'm not trying to discourage you or or encourage you but it's a tool we haven't used yet more and more reason to table the discussion i'm going to make sure if there's anyone else in the audience development plan that we are submitting as the site plan approved in other words yes it's guaranteed what we are presenting here tonight the only way that it could be changed if somebody came in and wanted to get a new site plan approved there it is that's correct that's my understanding which i believe complex is what your question was by approving the p r d with this plan approval attached are you guaranteeing that development in that configuration with those unit types and it's my understanding the answer is yes and i'm just looking for clarification from stuff that is correct ok ok and i guess i'm going to go back to what my trip through we had to say that i also live in holland heights and i've been there thirty two years and a concern is density and i'm very impressed with this development i personally think that it does fit in the community i think you've done your homework and i think that it will be an asset to our neighborhood but i do not want to see the property rezoned and then you drop out because then we breeze on the property and as mike and i both now p could be higher density than you are proposing sorry apparently i'm pushing that as i'm walking i'm not watching so just to clarify also we are more than willing to propose a development agreement that yes this is the only thing that is approved on the site so i think that's what they were referring to from a development agreement standpoint in other words the only way that it could be something other than what is that they would have to essentially come back and get rezoned if they wanted to do something else and if that is not enough i'm also offering up a development agreement in which that absolutely locks us and they've called in council you can clarify me if i'm wrong but we would be guaranteeing that that's what it is and the only way that it would be changed from a zoning and or cycling approval standpoint would be through an entire rezoning process ok and that is what i guess i need to understand thanks ok and i think it's important to understand too i mean you can play out some scenarios in your head but i mean one of them could be you know worst case scenario ok i don't want to answer it but it works i mean we've got to understand that the planning commission and city council ultimately you know governs the zoning on this property so if for some reason the developer doesn't do this plan and that you know the property sits there for a couple years or city council has the ability to do that in fact go tensional a i mean i'm looking at the attorney here i mean if we wanted to go the route of a development agreement there could probably well  we couldn't do reversionary thing we city council would still have to go through the process of rezoning it back but i mean we alternately hold that that ability to do that thanks ok the commission can have more than question i want to make sure that the audience has the opportunity to ask questions and make their comments that they want to make all right i'm going to close the public hearing at this point then i don't think we have enough information here or all the information necessary to make a recommendation on this tonight i'll say this sometimes we approve site plans subject to a drainage plan being approved by the city engineer whatever kind of thing i think with this particular plan with the sensitivity of the drainage some of the other site conditions i think we have to have everything buttoned up here before we recommend approval on this so i'm hoping that when staff comes to us with a resolution or whatever it is this that there will be a very few subject in this is especially on the drainage so that we're not there tonight i know that that is indeed what staff is is looking to do and that's kind of typically what planning commission city council of planning commission when you've approved plan developments of this nature p we typically have a pretty detailed resolution that goes along with that that basically spells out the governance of everything and it would be our intention to have that kind of a document for you next time and the question i have for staff is how yes i fully agree with you greg my concern is not so much the city engineer coming up with a drainage plan as one of the criteria the city engineers are using for coming up with a drainage plan i t's not dealing with water quality or quality clarity than you've kind of the feet of the purpose how will we know that has happened i guess we can i mean we'll have a conversation with with brian white in regards to that i mean i know that the river there is it's governed you know by regulations you know i don't know if it's a part of the drain border or what it is but i mean there are set regulations in ways that say if water is coming into the river by such and such a point i mean that the policy is to get it in quickly and if it's further upstream than that then you want to detain  i have no doubt that the regulations for the metering i just want to know we're taking into account the quality of what's being metered that i did not hear that well i think we will get that defined for you from our from brian what i can tell you that i mean what jason has indicated i've heard with my own ears from brian white that his concern for the sighted when it comes to storm drainage is get the water out as quickly as possible so twelve hours later when the slug of water coming from zealand and that it cetera has the ability to come through and not flood ok and he believes that what they have provided here for detention area everybody is aware of what this says submit the drainage plan for the site to the city that includes storm sewer routing calculations on a map with tributary areas provide details of the storm water management base and including outlets structure and piping information provide calculations demonstrating the water quality benefits of this feature and include a note on the plans that maintenance of the storm water management basin shall be the responsibility of the village of holland or the same entity that will be responsible for maintaining the private streets and private drainage system so brian is asking for that information i don't know if that's good or not i understand the concerns about density but then i don't know how to determine what that upper threshold is this all began with the scares me i just don't like it it's a very intense reworking of that whole property that's a lot of folks on it and i understand that you're by right as a foreigner square for a lot but i know a little bit about development and nobody in this day and age in their right minds going to develop an eighty four hundred square foot lot so their density would probably be lower so anyone you know that said at some point you've got to decide whether the perfect  the enemy of the good and so if we when we table this tonight i'm really more interested next time when people come back to speak to the character you know we've gone from single family detached house to four blocks and duplexes if you can if you if the heights thinks that that's all right i guess i think that's all right i think it's a lot different than what my expectation would be walking into our one neighborhood and we didn't really touch on that you're looking for a bunch of procedural motions i want up in a table and you are more than welcome do you want to do you want to do them one of the time then for the rezoning for the purity yes my understanding is that there needs to be a motion in the affirmative move we approve the site plan as presented with staff recommendations and qualifiers and restrictions and things like that support  i can use a procedurally mark will there be more letters to tell or well you know ok but it will be you on the agenda again for september twenty fourth and that can be found on the i can't hear you moment here we have quite often the that is a courtesy notified people when we have a continuing process we may not choose to elect to open the public hearing but i think we should notice this so this is not trivial so we have another meeting and it's to the date certain that's you know that's fine but we should still notice if commission members would like staff to do that we can do that we're not required under state law to notice it again regulatory requirement so it could be email but we don't know if we might have been everybody within three hundred feet we don't have all their email it was just a thought for it's also on the agenda on the website correct yes on the monthly agenda  you can click on that we will ok what if i can just clarify then you had the the official public hearing tonight you'll find it in the closed it will be your expectation i mean you can put the chair would take comments at that time then to do you think that you would would open the process up for public comment at that well it would be my suggestion since we can't make a decision because we don't have all the information that not having all allowed or not allowed so i'm just i would agree with that ok yes that they will be allowed yes right the other comments on that i'm moving on i'm all right i'm a fix communications petition scheduling a public hearings there are non communications from commission members