this year will come to order good morning and welcome everyone and to our witnesses thank you for letting us conduct a little business here and as was stated several of our this is a busy time we have several members in markups elsewhere they will be coming back but there their staff is either here or in the ante room watching this will be televised so we'll have a the opportunity for this to go out and we appreciate you being here water is an essential employee to virtually everything we do from growing and processing food to manufacturing to products we use today to producing the energy we need to power our economy water is essential to all life and to maintain public health and the diversity and beauty of our environment the recent droughts experience in the west in the southeast and increased competition for water supplies suggest that we must take a closer look at how we are managing our water resources thirty six states expect to experience significant water shortage by two thousand and thirteen population growth increased per capita water use degraded water quality and climate change of all impacted our availability are available supplies of water in my district water sources have dried up in wales run dry towns have been forced to implement water restrictions to deal with a decrease supply according to the ten first eight months of two thousand and seven with the driest in the last one hundred eighteen years of tennessee history when severe water shortage occurs the economic impact is substantial in two thousand and seven the ten authority was forced to shut down a nuclear reactor due to a lack of acceptable cooling water in the tennessee river according to a two thousand report from knowing each of the eight water storage or eight water shortages over the past twenty years from drought or heat waves resulted in one billion dollars or more in monetary losses a recent report by j p morgan indicated that a single production interruption at a semiconductor plant could cost two hundred million dollars in lost revenue i believe investment in research and development public education and better information on the status of our water supplies we can avoid the high cost social disruption environmental damage associated with water shortage our committee has already be bring forward legislation to help us better utilize water resources last week the subcommittee on energy and environment reported old by mr represented hall and mr matheson to authorize research at the department of energy and environmental protection agency on water treatment and increase the efficiencies of our water use we will be looking for more opportunities to address this important issue i would like to thank our panelists for appearing before sedate to share with us their views on the problems we currently face in water supply and their suggestions for addressing these problems in the future and i look forward to a lab discussion from this impressive panel at this time i would like to yield to my distinguished colleague from texas our ranking member mr hall for an opening statement it energy and agriculture the two largest consumers of water stand but it's also a vital part of manufacturing fishing obviously everyday living waters important to us prosperity is one that's been discussed in various reports over the last decade government sponsored and private sector alike it's hit home for some of us where districts have been subjected to periods of long grass are massive flooding this congress is well aware of the dangers of water shortages and over abundance two years ago we passed and the president signed the national integrated draft information system act of two thousand and six we did this in response to the need for a centralized location for draft information i'm very pleased that dr pull already is here to talk about it although this law is not the only answer is part of the larger solution required for good water policy and good management what we need are the institutional memory and knowledge in this very important area and i ask unanimous consent that all additional statements made by the committee members be included in the record without objection so ordered it's not pleasure now to introduce two witnesses this morning dr stephen parker is the director of the water science and technology board at the national research council and this guilford i would like to yield to you somehow we always work arizona into most hearing so you're up thank you mr chairman it's a privilege for me to introduce a tremendous colleague from from arizona dr john overpeck who is one of the brightest stars at the university of arizona dr overpeck is a climate system scientist at the u of a worry is also the director for the institute for the planet for the study of planet earth a professor of geosciences and a professor of atmospheric sciences dr overpeck has published over one hundred twenty papers in climate and the environmental sciences he recently served as a coordinating lead author for the fourth assessment report of the u n intergovernmental panel on climate change which shared the two thousand and seven nobel peace prize with former vice president al gore and i want to thank you and your colleagues for coming to present before our committee the court's  very important document for disciplinary research dr overpack has also been awarded the u s department of commerce bronze and gold medals as well as the walter or roberts award of the american mira logical society has been a guggenheim fellow and serves on the board of reviewing editors for science magazine dr over pecks research focuses on global change dynamics with a major compile aimed at understanding how and why he climate systems vary on timescales longer than seasons and years through his research dr overpeck is working to help foster a new paradigm of interdisciplinary knowledge creation between physical biological and social scientist all with the goal of serving the environmental neas of society in a more effective manner i'm very pleased to have dr overpack here in arizona and i'm pleased to have such a distinguished panel group a panelist to talk about an issue that is vitally important to the west and to our country thanks to dr workers and i will be quite a generous with you but nonetheless you have very distinguished you're the director of the water policy program at the brand school of environmental science and management at the university of california santa barbara welcome and doctor or rather m is the eco economist for the u s corporate research at j p morgan chase and author of j p morgan's recent report watching water a guide to have a waiting corporate risk in a thursday world and finally  good morning mr chairman members of the committee and others i'm stephen parker from the national research council and i'm pleased to participate in today's hearing i've been in my position at the water science and technology board for twenty six years and of overseeing about two hundred studies relevant today today's topic that's my remarks are general and drawn from our body of work not one particular recent study it is hard to overstate the importance of high quality water supplies to our nation yet in many areas supplies are essentially fixed and the quality is deteriorating at the same time demands for water to support population and economic growth the environment and other purposes continue to increase examples of the mounting array of water related problems exist in every region of the country especially the west and southwest both of these regions have rapidly growing populations and have been affected by climate variability drought and  tightening water supply picture as many new users vie for limited supplies and call for changes to traditional allocation rules lasting solutions to these challenges of water supply and demand and water quality will require creative science based strategies and innovative water technologies i have phrased my central concerns in the form of four questions if the answers to some of these questions are no i fear that we may be in for a national water crisis something like that portrayed in the media my question one will there be sufficient water to support both future economic and population growth while sustaining ecosystems the fast growing south west and southeast faced great challenges in meeting increasing water demands most of the sources and supplies of water for these regions are fully allocated among environmental urban and agricultural uses unfortunately the nation seems lacking in a long term strategic vision of alternative means for accommodating growth with existing supplies we believe the nation has under invested in research and development needed to help in this a augment water supplies in this post dam building era for example through wastewater reuse desalination and other approaches including aquifer storage in recovery question two how effectively can our water management systems and institutions adapt to climate change existing data reveals some significant climate changes in the u s in recent years warmer temperatures in some regions and potential impacts on water supplies of special concern although there are uncertainties regarding future climate projections there is broad scientific agreement that rising temperatures are having a number of facts such as earlier melting of snow pack which affects agricultural production increases flood were rifts and is forcing changes in reservoir operations to higher sea levels which will increase salinity in coastal water supply aquifers and alter marshes and wetlands and three and changing amounts of precipitation and extreme climatic events my question three will drinking water be safe over the past one hundred years investments in water treatment and distribution infrastructure has made the quality of us drinking water among the best in the world today we take safe water for granted nevertheless new chemicals and biological agents continue to we merge an intentional or unintentional contamination of drinking water supplies represents a real and continuing threat additionally much of our urban drinking water infrastructure is reaching the end of the expected lifetime and will need to be replaced in the next twenty five ten to twenty five years question for can existing water policies effectively respond to present and future challenges many of the nation's water policies and practices were created and designed for yesterday's water resources challenges into becoming obsolete for example the national environmental policy act the clean water act the safe drinking water act the endangered species species act were all passed in the early seventy's likewise many dam operators and water allocation plans  are designed for a set of users in an earlier era and are being challenged by increasing demand from users such as recreational urban and environmental interests it seems important that the nation's water man management institutions and body the vigilant so we're sure and perhaps restore modern and appropriate management and legal instruments to meet the challenges the case is compelling for governmental leadership and support for water resources research and maintenance of strong governmental scientific and technical technical capabilities my written statement discusses numerous examples of past federally funded water research that have produced significant payoffs to the nation the advances in water science and technology that's why it is now requiring are likely to be inadequate if federal action is not taken as the states and non governmental organizations have limited resources to invest in required research that concludes my statement i commend the committee for recognizing the importance of water resources and the role of the government in water resources to the nation i hope you will act quickly and strategically as i often worry that we are chairman gordon ranking member hall tigris on giffords and other distinguished members of the committee i thank you for allowing me to come and discuss these issues with you today one of our chief potential challenges to ensuring reliable water supply will be climate variability and also climate change and it appears likely that both climate variability and climate change are already starting to challenge water supply in parts of our country significant arts of our nation are currently into route droughts in the west central plains texas and the southeast all vie for title of the worst current drought these droughts now occurring in the u s are however modest compared to the severe natural droughts that took place before the twentieth century for example western north america has seen twenty five year and much longer mega droughts in just the last thousand years it's safe to say that if water supply infrastructure in many parts of our country for example the  west were to see such a drought it would be overwhelmed today however what is most disturbing about these natural mega droughts of the past is that we are not sure what caused them nor are we confident that we can predict them it's just a matter of time before we'll get another mega drought and this means that we should think seriously about making our society more resilient in the face of mega drought now i'd like to turn to the issue of climate change the climate system is changing very likely due to humans in this change could also pose another major challenge to water supply in parts of our nation parts of our country have already warmed more than two degrees fahrenheit in the last century and could warm another fifteen or more degrees by the end of the century if we don't do something to curb emissions of greenhouse gases the warming has already led to substantial decreases in spring snow pack which in turn have led to decrease flow in some major river systems in the united states including the colorado river current river flow estimates for some parts of the country for example the colorado river that serves seven states and over thirty million people indicates that water supply could be greatly reduced by mid century or before in addition the latest climate change science indicates that much of the coterminous us could see an increase in the annual maximum number of consecutive dry days between rainfall rainfall events a decrease in average soil moisture and an increased likelihood of drought although the projected changes are less certain outside the west and southwest the current state of climate science suggests that they these all should be considered real possibilities for the future then can we do about this challenge fortunately there are some no regrets actions that can be taken regardless of cause natural or climate change we need an accelerated effort to understand climate related water supply variabilities both physical biological and social for example we must incorporate realistic assessments of future climate change into water management models that are being used to assess future supply change also groundwater serves as a major buffer during times of drought we must buy in determining how much ground water really exists locally under around our country and how quickly this  groundwater can be recharged in the future both by precipitation and human mechanisms and lastly we need to determine for example how much water can be diverted safely from agriculture another important buffer in times of drought to uses that support population growth in potentially water limited regions number two we need an accelerated effort to understand climate change variability climate variability and climate change processes as well as how to predict them essential progress can be accelerated via greater funding of basic for example national science foundation and use inspired for example no deal we a nasa climate research observation and modeling number three we need a national climate service that is designed to support local and regional decision makers in dealing with climate related reductions in water supply finally in addition to no regrets options that i've just summarized there is also the option of mitigating or reducing the likely impacts of climate change on us water supply if we wish to forestall for sure potential major climate change threats to water supply let me start with the four points i'd like to make integrated policy and planning i'm going to pitch and i have in my written testimony that we coupled the science and technology assets that we have with policy  processes multiple benefits strategies designs for flexibility and put it on the climate change context this is a map of total water withdrawals in the u s and i'll draw your attention to the little mountains off on the right hand side of the picture most of those are thermal power plants i was asked to address the water energy nexus and so there's a differentiation here between the east and the west to some extent as to what we're withdrawing water for in different areas many water systems in the u s are already over allocated and stressed every major supply system in california is already over allocated there's a population growth map and water resources and you can see even in areas that are marked in blue and terms of water resources when we look at the drought monitor for the u s and jonathan has and his presentation the same map for two months later almost exactly drawn from the  current map here in may and it looks almost identical so you can see some of that tremendous drought in the southeast is occurring in areas that until recently many thought were wet and somewhat immune to the same kind of droughts nearly twenty years ago two of the stars in the in the field of climate science roger revelle and paul waggoner made a very important observation governments at all levels should reevaluate legal technical and economic procedures for managing water resources in the light of climate changes that are highly likely indeed we're seeing those changes unfold and we need to visit again institutions and legal frameworks as well as our science and technical capacity just a quick little bit of history where we were only fifty years ago in our thinking about water resource management this is a map of north america you'll see on the upper left the water collection region coming down through the water transfer region it was thought that oregon washington didn't need much and were distributed down in the southwest and be very generous right on across the mexican border and you'll see in the middle of the picture the optional water distribution region maybe even share some there this was a serious plan here's the plumbing for plan and that was the way we were thinking about managing water through inner basin transfers only fifty years ago a lot of thinking has changed from the idea of building facilities in the west in particular with surface storage with conveyance systems we have some remarkable engineering and remarkable systems but we're having difficulty with the match between hydrology and those systems providing for our needs what we need is integrated whole system approaches to water and energy management in the context of science and technology climate change economics and environmental concerns and we need policy strategies that are designed to tap multiple benefits and are flexible in the face of changing circumstances so let me briefly go through them some energy observations here about nineteen percent of california's electricity on the focus here in california and about a third of our natural gas goes to water in fact water is the top use of electricity in california now our systems as you can see groundwater and local water projects actually provide the majority of water but we have  major plumbing facilities as well all run you through the state project very quickly that's the red line on this map here is all the pumping plants for that system here is one of them the largest pumping plant in the world that's only half of it at the foot of the t mountains and this is what it looks like as we plot out all of the energy inputs to those systems putting that on a bar chart the red bars of the in a basin transfer points including the colorado river aqueduct in the state water project you'll not that they exceed ocean water desalination in terms of energy intensity already energy intensity is the total amount of energy bodied in water used in a particular place we run through a calculation california's been doing quite a bit of this work now to figure out every step in that water process and then to understand opportunities to manage it differently here's one of the largest uses as you can see single families for the u s not just california and then going to the half this residential half of that is outdoors half is indoors here is california's official state water plan and here are the sources of water for the next quarter century and i'll draw your attention to the bar on the  right urban water use efficiency doing something about that water use on the demand side is where we expect to get most of our water in the future along with conjunctive management and recycle water those are the big ones to skip through because my time's out but here are some of those opportunities for water management that are going to provide the new water supplies at least according to our state planning process and california couple to that is capturing storm water in different techniques that are often simple but very effective recycling water going to high tech filtration reverse osmosis for different sources and then going to the flip of that very quickly the water intensity of energy actually energy thermal energy facilities are the largest use of water withdrawn in the united states along with agriculture over a third and about a three percent of total consumption the federal labs are doing a lot of work on this analysis as indicating we've got lots of opportunities to produce energy with very little or no water and we have other opportunities that use tremendous amounts of water so we have choices to make quick conclusions then water scarcity and quality will remain key issues vast opportunities do exist for efficiency improvements science and technology are critically important addressing water supply quality challenges but policy design and implementation is equally as important so integrated whole system  planning and designing policies and infrastructure for flexibility a multiple benefits i posed two questions in my written testimony how can we decouple water and energy systems where there are high cost trusses damages or vulnerabilities to systems it's quite an honor for me to be with such a distinguished panel today i'm going to speak about water supply risks and their impact on investors first it might help that if i explain exactly where i fit in the wall street ecosystem i specialize in economic issues including environmental regulation and my clients are institutional investors who buy publicly traded stocks and bonds i say that to make clear that i have no connection whatsoever to our mergers and acquisitions business or to the lending business or to the many other things that an investment bank does in my opinion investors are much less concerned about water supply risks than they should be we recently published a report to which the chairman alluded contending that water supply risks are far more important to many companies than investors believe we also found that very few companies are fully aware of these risks a lot of companies now produce p r brochures that talk about how they're reducing water use per unit of output but almost none of these companies thoroughly assesses what we call its water footprint which is the total usage of water and its supply chain clear through to the consumption of its products investors really have no way of evaluating the risk of business disruption due to water scarcity or of comparing risks among companies we think these risks take three forms one is physical risk that's the most obvious this is the risk to which the chairman alluded earlier that occurred with the browns ferry reactor last year it simply had to be shut down because there was not enough water in the tennessee river to cool it adequate the second is a different situation it's regulatory risk regulatory risk involved government decisions to allocate and price water in response to scarcity perhaps the best u example occurred in two thousand and one when lack of water in the columbia and snake rivers caused the bonneville power administration to curtail electricity sales to aluminum smelters in montana oregon and why in the short run aluminum production plummeted in the u s in the long run the aluminum industry is leaving the region because regulators responded to water scarcity by raising the price of a key input electricity in two thousand and one there were ten aluminum smelters in the northwest today there are three still operating a third set of corporate risks as reputational in a number of places around the world consumers are taking environmental considerations into account in deciding which goods and services to buy and we think companies that are perceived as bad actors face a serious risk of consumer backlash the risks of water scarcity of course are not evenly spread through the economy in addition to semiconductors  power generation water sensitivity is particularly acute in food processing and an oil and gas production i think food processing risks are well known to people perhaps less so in oil and gas where there is now a lot of interest in sh formations shale rock contains very small pours basically the oil or gas cannot migrate to the well readily the way this oil is recovered is by injecting large amounts of water under high pressure a technology called fractures stimulation this runs afoul of the lack of water in many places and so the lack of water is actually inhibiting the recovery of oil that would otherwise be available t committee asked me what the federal government might do to facilitate the equitable and efficient allocation of water supplies and i wanted to give you three thoughts here first if you look at overall u s water consumption it's actually been fairly flat but there are some disturbing trends and increasing share of this consumption comes from groundwater which suggests that surface water resources have been tapped out irrigation accounts for about two thirds of us groundwater withdrawals and this share is probably growing i would point out that the effort to increase production of ethanol actually increases the draw on groundwater by encouraging the planting of corn and other crops in fairly arid regions where it has to be irrigated there are more than one hundred thousand irrigation wells in the united states and only one seventh of them according to the agriculture department only one in seven irrigation wells has a meter on it if something's not metered it's not being paid for and there's very little incentive to conserve something that you're getting for free so i would suggest that here is an area for the committee to look at i understand that state law rather than federal law governs groundwater but excessive use of groundwater clearly affects interstate commerce and so there's a federal interest here and in my view it would be useful for congress to encourage the states to apply methods of pricing groundwater withdrawals to stimulate conservation this should apply not just to agriculture but to all groundwater withdrawals a second subject in which congressional involvement might be useful is localised water treatment almost all of our public supplies are now treated centrally as a result we're using drinking water to water roses and wash down parking lots this represents a huge waste of resources there's now a lot of work going on at decentralized developing decentralized water treatments this is in the r and d stage by many private companies it might be an area in which federal research funds or changes in federal water treatment regulations would be helpful there's one other subject i want to touch on and that is power generation i know there's a lot of talk on capitol hill now about federal loans or guarantee programs for new generation nuclear plants and for coal plants with carbon capture and sequestration both of these technologies require large amounts of water i think  it the social cost of these large water withdrawals be reflected in the prices users pay for the electricity from these plants it's just bad policy for the government to be subsidizing water usage and this applies to power plants as much as to agriculture and other over as outlined in public law one zero nine four thirty nine s is invasion to serve as an early warning information system for managing drug related risks in the twenty first century impetus for information services to support federal state and local responses has risen from ongoing concerns over water security and scarcity as mentioned before in the southwest since one thousand nine hundred nine in the southeast since early two thousand and seven along with declining water levels in the three largest great lakes since the late one nine hundred eighty s a great deal of progress has been made since the night  program was established in december two thousand and six a national interagency an interstate program implementation team has been developed the web based out portal was launched in november two thousand and seven and is now provides comprehensive national level information on ongoing drought conditions and emerge in conditions no one night is celebrating the improvements of operational climate forecasts and information on past droughts tailored to watersheds and local scales such as the upper basin of the colorado and the southeast including tennessee georgia  florida alabama and the carolinas notice works through numerous federal agencies tribes states and local governments as such there is significant leveraging of the existing observing system infrastructure and products such as the drought monitor to provide improved data streams of the level of detail needed for decision making at watersheds colorado basin and at regional scales such as the southeast and dayton predictions are by themselves insufficient to ensure adaptation and flexibility in the water resources sector a whole mark no pun intended of night us is the provision of decision support tools and training coupled with the ability of users to report local conditions back to the portal near term activities include tailoring of the drop portal to add locally specific data and information of the water in the shed and county levels water managers already explicitly considering how to incorporate the potential effects of a changing climate into specific designs for example in the california southern metropolitan water district in seattle and las vegas adaptive managed many measures have been undertaken but the barriers to implementing active measures include the inability of some natural systems to adapt the rate of combined demographic pressures and climate understanding and quantifying or water demands and impediments to the flow of timely and reliable information relevant for decision making climate services designed to support adaptation of which knight is an example will be important in coping with current and future extremes and their effects on water resources regardless of how that change is derived as part of their drought management municipalities and state engine seas will have improved climate information and forecasts at key entry points for allocating domestic and industrial water usage water resource managers will have access to more detailed information on low flow conditions when balancing irrigation and hydro power with the needs of wildlife and flows to support coastal economies emergency declarations can now better reach out to those communities in need of assistance with improved information on the  while per capita water use is declining in some parts of the country trends and demand observational records and climate projections provide abundant evidence that or fresh water resources of vulnerable parties for trials early warning information and decision support tools to prepare a nation for these challenges requires a mix portfolio of approaches including and hansing the networks of systematic observations of key elements in the human ecological and physical systems including monitoring ground water and vegetation stress promoting drought plans that maintains state sovereignty but responds to the needs of shared watersheds including developing transponder monitoring and early warning information for internationally shared watershed with our neighbors to the north and the south developing drought information impact assessment tools that include the cost and benefits of various adaptations and changing water the men's and finally developing usable drop management triggers for specific planning trash old and scenarios in agriculture water energy and the coast so the challenges of managing water supplies to meet social economic and environmental needs requires matching what we do with what we actually know knight is office a nation a mechanism to achieve the service requirement by providing a basis for integrating drug monitoring research and information for decision support about how really his life and life on our farm change when the rule extrication came out there that can we had a good will that's how we got our water and if the other grandparents we had a good spring whereby they had their own little tin  we were talking about even small subdivisions right outside of town oftentimes they don't have water and as we call it toting water is something that many many americans are doing right now and constantly folks are telling wars have been followed and they will continue to be followed over war over water and probably more so in the future so what i would like to do is use in your cumulative wisdom is to get some suggestions on a federal role you and you've given us some of those ideas but what i would be more narrow in the sense that this committee really only has jurisdiction over federal research and development i think in this area and so i think we've been done a pretty good job of trying to take good ideas and build a consensus and moving forward so what i'd like for you to do what i might say in the in the longer term when you leave here i want you to if you would submit back to us any suggestions you might have that this committee can do but right now i'd like to hear hear you came out of the talk about one two or three of the most significant things that this committee could come forward with in terms of federal r and d mr math and mr hall already have a bill on that and we'd like to see how that by saying you need to do your microphone and i did it and there you go thanks without any doubt research and development can play a huge role in how we manage our water i think what's really a potential biggest problem is what we don't know we don't know what water lies underground we don't really know how to predict what kind of stream flows will occur in the future or groundwater in full tray ssion in the future at the scales that are important for decision makers at the scale of your farm or watershed we don't know how climate is going to vary in the future with a nuff perception to be able to forecast it and we don't know how climate change is going to affect our water reserves so all of these things require more research and development to get clear answers so that we develop  our country and move populations around and grow in a way that is sensible and makes sense with regards to our our true water supply and i think my colleagues will talk about also as we start to develop new energy economy that has to take into account water water is far more valuable i think than many of our citizens realize and we have to provide the underlying framework for making good decisions and i think much of that is research and development and i applaud the bill that your colleague has put together your colleagues i think it's very important to be looking at efficiency and conservation because certainly we can save a lot of water that way thank you covers everything from water pricing for conservation and water use reuse efficient use of the resource i think the actor wilkinson mentioned  reclamation in california and the use of perhaps dual systems the use of water or various qualities for various purposes now it's  infrastructure challenge but i think we'd better be heading in that direction particularly in the arid west where i think the availability of the resource probably  just quickly i think there's an obvious opportunities in technology development for a fission c we've come a long way just in the last decade or two with the efficiency of a lot of plumbing fixtures a lot of other opportunities for laser leveling of fields and irrigation technologies and the rest so i think there's a long way to go and there's a lot of opportunities there the other is water efficiency of our energy systems what can we do to develop energy systems that require less water or no water and how can we develop portfolios of energy systems that take pressure off of our water systems i think those two are important areas finally filtering technology a lot of our water now with concerns about pharmaceuticals and the rest is going to be treated to greater degrees and looking for efficient ways to use water and to filter and treat it in ways that meet the health standards that we all want to see but do that efficiently i think it's going be very important brought about by the i think that while the committee clearly doesn't have a tax jurisdiction the committee can do a great deal to bring into public discussion the point that water is in fact a scarce resource and needs to be priced because frankly without pricing the  too while certainly there is a need to promote conservation technology and that's all well and good you really also have have a bully pulpit here to use in order to to make clear that this is a scarce resource and that there does need to be action on the pricing front we're actually going to have conservation we're going to have a variety of hearings that we hope to do that mr prodi did you have any thing when i had one of the major issues developing some of the new technologies not only for efficiency but for the transfer of technology into practice and i think the bills make that case thank you there will be a point where we're going to have as we're point out a mega drought or other problem that will bring the whole congress is either legislative or a role for us to request different agencies to to be involved and that will we will then try to take those ideas and build a consensus and do some good work here miss  fifteen or twenty minutes someone always refers to water and far as wonderful friends but fearful enemies and we've sure experience that more than one time on the plains of texas and the drought that we had and then the over availability of water so i guess parker availability is important it's also important to manage it so i've asked dr parker we have to operate on information and knowledge and how would you compare the information technology available to water managers in the united states to those in other nations that face similar problems to what we face think the short answer is i think we've got better information i think that there are such as germany that we might be lagging behind in terms of pushing innovative alternative green technologies that that that kind of thing but in terms of hydrologic information it's better i think we're a little better off where you very pointed out i think your testimony that when you discussed water quality and has improved since testify and the chairman and others here will take your testimony stud it know that everything you say is available to every member of congress because of the court reporter is taking it down somewhere here that will report it  of my spoken testimony some ideas about non point source pollution which is it's not only a technical and a management issue but it's also a legal issue in the sense that where i referred to some of our laws and practices is becoming obsolete there's a prime example of the issue that isn't dealt with very well within the  in the legislation we done some work for for e p a now this isn't the probably the appropriate thing for me to say advising them on urban water supply system security they have a research program in cincinnati it's a very good one it's underfunded it it ought to be well supported it was driven by concerns about deliberate acts of harm to water supply systems they're doing good work it has brought application be on the terrorism  context but i think it's kind of a hand to mouth are operational that each year has the five for the limited resources it seems it's under appreciated to me to the extent that you have any influence over that positioned to make a decision on which crops to plant and when to plant them now given the overwhelming incentive we passed last year for biofuels and and the reference to other crops if they are to plant and and  those that planted the crops including corn follow the market and then creation and reception of the benefits of plan that have you seen caution or hesitation on the part of farmers to plant fuel crops and i am wondering what what what about the temperature or change a fixed water supply quality of  well temperature certainly has temperature thanks temperature change certainly has a major effect on water supply as temperature goes up there is a increase and it's not a linear increase in the amount  of moisture that the atmosphere can hold so the atmosphere will demand more moisture and where will it get that moisture it will get it from soil it'll get it from forests it'll get in from agricultural plants it will get in from reservoirs it will give her any open source of water and it will draw that water out so these temperature changes that are coming are huge just gigantic and they will demand a lot of water and they will make the droughts of the past look pale because they'll be so much hotter yeah i want to compliment up to a statement one of the impacts on temperatures on snow pack and what we've seen not only in terms of early runoff there has been an impact on the actual quality the amount of snow water that is in the snow and two thousand and five two thousand and six the upper colorado we received under five percent of precipitation because of the dryness before that and because of the warmth of that spring that stream i know that every major body of water in this country is contaminated and we have a shortage of expertise in addressing this issue and  what you determine that we would address many of the problems now as it relates to the research here with such a shortage of people well you know i think this goes back to congressman hall's question i mean between the united states and other countries the world our advantages that we're an advanced country and that means that we ought to be able to bring to bear much more knowledge knowledge is power but it's not just knowledge power for a country it's a power for every individual has to make decisions in their day to day life about water and so we really need programs that educate everybody not just the water managers but the people who use water because so many of the solutions will require cooperation of the citizens united states and that we work together there's huge die discrepancies between the per person water use in cities in the west that really are astounding and we need to learn how to use our very valuable water treasure more more carefully thank you very much i'm doing a series of cable shows on the basics so how to begin to educate the public and one of the major of this all doesn't have to be in the public sector there is in certain areas a lot of potential for private investment in water conservation if it pays off and you know it does sound like a broken record but to a certain extent you get back into i think here because that's what makes it interesting for people to buy conservation equipment and to the extent that there's a demand for water conservation there will be a lot of private initiative in developing  ways to conserve water and process technologies in particular industries for example or improving irrigation or that sort of thing and there will be private people paying for this r and d it doesn't have to be done by the government and second to the recognized thank you very much mr chairman and coming from california i certainly understand the significance of what's presented us today we live  on and on a desert that goes right up to the ocean and time it about that and names mulholland and other great champions of california well known and appreciated and i wonder if we are our generation is going to have create a better future as the model and for us in the past mr wilkinson let me just ask you and i didn't really appreciate your detailed  earlier in the year for the last two months we've had very little actually started quite late i took my graduate students up to somebody in december and we drove across the pass over the mountains has virtually no snow at all in early december normally of course it would have amber in december normally would have a lot of snow but between early december than when i started snowing and about two months ago we got a pretty good snow pack and had on the average higher this year than last year it's a little bit a little bit below the average level not a huge amount the problem is that with very little for the last two months we're now facing very serious water situation of course you probably know last week they did the snow survey at the e why are you so convinced that today it's all a result of human activity even though the droughts in the past were worse than they are today a good question i in my testimony where i was able to expound on this a little bit longer i tried to highlight that we don't the origin of the current droughts we do know that they're being made worse by the higher temperatures that's causing the rain and snow problem in the early melting of the snow that's getting california little fifth this year but we really don't know the origin of these droughts are going on now and that's why i try to emphasize this idea of a no regrets approach i would suggest that we also don't know the cause of the temperature rise i look i have a lot of sympathy with people who say look this is what the climate is and we've got to prepare for it because droughts we need to water etc but when people have to lace their testimony with  reconfirmation of the manmade global warming it doesn't add to the load of the doesn't doesn't mean it seems frankly it takes away from the presentation one last thing here and i'd like to know this and mr levinson mentioned that nuclear energy uses water i've used looked at the high temperature gas cool reactor as traditional nuclear power plants do use water obviously because they're based on steam there is a and i keep pushing this because i want people to take a look at this alternative there is a high temperature gas cool reactor my friends who believe in global warming will love it as well i might add because it is of course a clean and does not produce green greenhouse glatt gases but it does not use the water that the traditional nuclear power plants do and i would suggest it is something we should look at because i do understand there is a direct relationship between the amount of energy and water and  capacity of our country to how big our population can get you know population is growing rather rapidly right now and we are talking about already seeing shortfalls in water and he thought so that  terms of what the tradeoffs would be to have some numbers that say if our population grows by x then we're going to have to reduce water consumption by why any thoughts about that natural concern i don't know the specific answer in terms of what number we might accommodate i can't give you those some breakdown in california will use about eighty percent of the water for agriculture and about twenty percent for the urban system for people directly in much of the west it's even more for agriculture on the order of ninety percent this varies of course tremendously around the country and the type of agriculture and so forth in california a lot of the discussion revolves around transfers of water from agriculture to urban so in theory one could double the state population and only take twenty percent of the water currently going to agriculture that would leave another sixty percent still that's in theory i'm not sure anybody really wants twice as many people california or anywhere else we have a  lot of crowding already but the transfer of water back and forth becomes in terms of a limiting factor in character an interesting question i will say that los angeles is increased by one million people and held water level that means per capita use has gone down considerably and that's mainly through these efficiency programs more efficient plumbing fixtures in the us mr chairman i wanted to mention there is in a recent report which referred to earlier a very interesting picture of population growth and water consumption in southern nevada the story there is that the local water authorities simply imposed very draconian measures right at the start of this decade basically telling people no they couldn't plant grass anymore no golf courses couldn't draw public water supplies anymore that sort of thing they experienced quite rapid population growth during the past seven or eight years and at the same time experienced a fairly sharp decline in water consumption so i think the notion that there is a necessary correlation between population growth and the growth of water consumption isn't right  complement that there has been changes in the efficiency of use and we know that it took two hundred tonnes of water to create a tonne of steel years ago and now it takes three to four we're seeing lots of reductions in  capita use of water but that does not mean the demand is not increasing because population is increasing even if we're leveling off in terms of per capita use one of the things we do have to keep in mind when we talk about carrying capacity is also ingenius you know hundred years ago we talked about some of these issues and we did have a lot of adaptive strategies in place where we're seeing the most immediate threats in the environmental services provided by the natural environment in terms of recreation tourism and the sources of our water supply that i think is will bear the brunt of immediate pressure we had a rather disturbing report here in the d c metro area about a month and a half or so ago about contamination of the drinking water tell us about what we can do to purify the water further and how common this problem is  i don't think we have any experts here on that side of water but i certainly share your concern as a parent and i know from my colleagues at university arizona that there's lots we can do in terms of researching out what is in our water and how then treat it to remove those most of our water treatment doesn't deal with that and one of the solutions down the road which my colleagues in california already adopting is essentially toilet to tap we're having to use this water that has been used before and w do that more and more into the future so we better get some research going to figure this out that's all i can say more appetising terminology might help with vance that effort one last question we read in your testimony about desalin one is the entrapment and entrainment of marine organisms on the intake side of the equation and there are ways to remedy that by drawing in the water through the sand and beach wells and so forth but there are concerns about that and then on the flip as you mentioned is discharge the brine discharge back to the ocean which is more sealing than what was taken out because we're taking some fresh water and then returning up a salty or mix back in some of the solutions to the proposed to mix that with effluent from wastewater system so actually the salinity is closer to the ocean may not be a bad solution but both of those are our challenges for ocean do so thank you very much  chairman thank you to the panel for your insight on these issues it's interesting i come from rural nebraska where it again is very important it's actually helping feed the world i would argue there's a little bit about surface storage dr wilkinson would you say that surface storage can perhaps help us mitigate climate change surface storage clearly plays an important role already in our water supply systems around the country one of the concerns with surface storage is the with increased variability in the system as dr overpeck described we may need where we have surface systems that are providing both flood control as well as water supply and we may need to hold those systems at lower levels to provide that flood control or take further risks because of pattern changes in precipitation so that becomes problematic we would sacrifice water supply and hydropower for those systems that provide those services if we're to operate those systems to deal with increased flood control risk the other issue with surface petition events that would fill them up quickly and then spill into flood and we've experienced some of that we've had some problems around the country and so one of the concerns when you have less certainty as to what might happen with precipitation but an increased chance that you may priest then to maintain that flood control system you begin to lose there's a tradeoff there of going to lose some of that water storage the other big issue of course is jonathan mentioned with increased temperatures we're going to have increased  evaporation and that's actually quite a serious issue with surface storage especially an arid areas we're losing a lot of water now that doesn't mean we're not going to continue to use surface storage systems but we may need to recalibrate our role curves and our expectations of water supply coming out of them based on climate change can you give any numbers for what you think the difference is today it i think we might be able to agree that climate change is a bit of a moving target in terms of defining it we're even getting away from the global warming terminology going to climate change based on some of the numbers of the last twenty four months or so  can you paint a picture with numbers easily understood perhaps of where we are with surface storage today where we need to be as compared to the past one hundred years or so i can't give you opportunities right now all around the country certainly in california with huge opportunities to manage groundwater more effectively and to use groundwater storage as a picture and as an empty bucket underground stor potential that can be managed that is an opportunity i think is pretty much all agree is a priority for water management of course that means maintaining quality of what gets into the ground and what once it's in the ground maintaining that quality so we don't have the kinds of issues that were just mentioned the concerns about water quality and what's safe to drink now you said we needed x amount more of what i think you said something like that we need x amount more i can't tell you exactly how much more surface stores of the country would need and part of that would depend on how well we use ground water and how efficiently we use water that would in turn reflect what our surface storage requirements would be nationwide so i would have to think about it in the context of the demand side how are we using water the other options for storage including groundwater and then what we need to do with our surface storage systems i would suggest would need to consider that as a as a package in integrated way and would you suggest that we need more reservoirs i think in some places we might and some places there's a serious discussion of removing reservoirs so i think you probably have everything on the table where do we need more and where do we have systems that may not be cost effective and many to come out dr rebecca yes thank you i mean i think what we really are running up against here is we don't have the knowledge to answer your questions we don't know exactly how the water  supply from the atmosphere will change in the future and how the demand by the atmosphere in terms of evaporation will change in the future we need to nail that down and factor that into our models of both above ground and below ground storage but i do agree with dr wilkinson that below ground storage might turn out to be a much more advantageous approach particularly in states like iran that have abundant aquifers we're already doing this in arizona and many texas other states are putting the water underground and you don't always get out what you put in but nonetheless you don't have the problem of operation some of the other problems that are associated with above ground storage and one of the ironies of climate change is that with the probability of increased frequency of drought comes the probability of increased flood as well this is because the hydrologic cycle the atmosphere is getting accelerated and there's more moisture out there more energy and it gives us both extremes in greater frequency and we're already seeing this around the world thank you mr smith we're trying to be a  discussion the chairman earlier about the bill introduced the water use efficiency and conservation research x two thousand and seven as you probably know it's going to it would establish a research development demonstration program within the office of research element to promote efficiency and conservation i was curious what role that the people on the panel would envision the e p a should have in supporting our long term water efficiency and conservation effort policies in this country anybody could answer let me just start out briefly i think the e p a deserves a lot of credit for some very good work over the years the low impact development some of the slides it was showing storm or capture and attenuation of pollution for example that they're doing very good work on and  that so i think they've already done a lot of good work and i think it's a very helpful move and what you proposed here are to take it a step further  at confidence conferences there in regulatory situations there in miami activities there's only so much that they can do though to advocate without putting a little money on the table and their research budget has been cut that so severely last few years they're losing their credibility i think you nailed it with this to give them a little bit of money to push just what is needed by appreciate that and i noticed in your  dr parker you you make a number of recommendations for additional research could you maybe opera just your opinion about what it what you think the highest priorities are the most critical areas where we ought to be investing in r and d looking out over the next twenty thirty years  what do you think are the best priorities for r and d on water conservation and or watershed gifts i think i think we need to invest more in the water systems i think terms of having professionals available to address problems and staff agencies in our consulting companies et cetera is really sorry shape our the  e dwindling research budget for graduate students and university adequate to produce people that we need in our field just when the problems are becoming most challenging and the social science side of it but always been elected the the water policy experts that i know are all in their sixt now we're losing the fuel that we have for the social sciences innovative supply technologies conservation i think our hydrologic networks are probably adequate but they've been allowed to to be roted it was ical surveys 've been working on a bill trying to put together something for a future study for the future working on a bill maybe even a sense of congress just something that some study group when a bottle of water gets to be worth more than a good bottle of beer or bottle of all you know we've got to go to thinking more about it and i see in texas in west texas the rains fall and then the feet and the rains fall and it goes on down to the sea should we be capturing that some someday even in a hundred thousand acres at a time to have it and we don't have that need yet and it's too expensive now but i remember when it was too expensive to have a module to for astronaut a way to giants or something and capture that water not let it run off to the sea and have it for the time when we have the draft yes i think this is an extremely important question as to what makes and types of storage mechanisms that we're in fact talking about and at the same time have enough of leftover in the system to make sure that the coastal economies that depend on fresh water inflow for bad's mussels and other things like that are themselves supported as a result one of the issues we have with withdrawing water from storage is we then increase sailing intrusion from salt water into the national aquifers so as long as we're balancing all of those kinds of issues then i think storage is one of the options and we do have to think in terms that far i can't see that far ahead but you know younger man and this young chairman here i'm going to get him to work with me on something to set up some kind of a study like that we've got a plan for thirty years from now and i try to mr hall in our chairman here you're in need of the next generation of water folks and as you can see we've got great folks here that i'm really concerned of the day when we won't have mr hall here to to give his good analogies mr chairman i'd like to invite you and or maybe one of the hearings we could have in the future would be about desalinization the largest home of the country's largest and most advanced federally sponsored seawater research and development project is in my district and mr wilkerson i was a little surprised with your comment because back on january thirtieth two thousand and eight the long beach water and the united states department of interior bureau of reclamation  constructed in under ocean floor intake and discharge demonstration system which i happen to view because it's right there at the bluff park where i walk my dogs on the weekend and the only other similar facility is in japan and i was particularly caught your comment because it was founded that essentially the underwater ocean floor intake system the ecological impacts of an trainmen an impingement typically associated with ocean intakes are avoided with the system is what when you were asked the question and this natural biological filtration process reduces the organic and suspended solids largely eliminating the need for additional pretreatment which reduces the overall energy footprint and cost of operation so i'm not sure if you're familiar with the success of what we recently had the project was as i said recently completed but i think mr chairman it would be well worth either one of us taking a trip we can take a tennessee guy and and have you have a real good time in california or we could have a hearing here but i think there has been some very recent information and mr wilkerson i'm not sure if you're familiar with those results but they have been substantial to the impacts of being nearly thirty percent more energy efficient than the reverse osmosis technology system so i think you're exactly right the long beach project was quite good in the missions and helping my point was that using that kind of funny intake avoids the entrainment an impingement so that is one of the opportunities where the geology supports that to use that kind of system so i think that is a success and i think they're doing a very good work in long beach so sir in terms of you know funding and research and things that we can do i think it's a valid area for us to consider sort of agree i'll just talk to our staff and say we need to be sure to get somebody and hearing in their response was that we've been talking with them extensively and the terms you use of what they're doing was fascinating so i'm glad that's coming along beach and we we want to continue to learn more about it  we thank you we are minutes away from a vote so let me thank our witnesses for appearing here today on the rules committee the record will be held open for two weeks for members to submit additional statements and additional questions that they might have the witnesses and again i would ask witnesses if you would respond to us and if you see particular areas federal r and d and also if you know degrading so you think that that is where that should be should be carried out that would be most welcome and will be a part of our thought process and this hearing is now