when we get started just a little bit of of housekeeping since the since the attorneys on the st three cases are the same and the issues i think are relatively similar instead of doing that separately let's just do it all together i'll give you twenty we'll just hear pulitzer again and mr parker and then you are in rebuttal again and if the constitutional issue comes up we'll hear from the justice department if it doesn't i don't think we need to hear from you we'll wait d to see what he has to say  st decision from this court the court found that those four patents are technological inventions that are not subject to see beyond review the seven hundred and sixty eight that's the non presidential decision right correct that's the sense that we've had two presidential decisions that treat your kind of family of patents differently so that in the nd then the nd decision which i call i b g two this court dealt with another continuation patent three hundred and seventy four patent that was a presidential opinion so although the st decision is not presidential we believe that that decision in terms of uniformity from this court in terms of what this court has said about those inventions is highly relevant even even though  presidential so in the seven hundred and sixty eight patent solves the exact same problem that was at issue with the patents and i did you want to note is user trading with respect to the gooey the prices are coming in from the exchange and the coo we had a problem the trader had a problem with missing his or her price that was a technical problem with the prior our displays how is that technical problem as opposed to a problem with how the trader d processes information it's a technical problem because the problem results from how the figure two styles phoring was constructed it was a cri format and information was on the grid on the grid and information on that grid is coming from the exchange the user has no control over that information and so the prices are changing in these parades and that isn't that true plane solve that problem specifically by providing fixed order entry locations that correspond to price levels and then continue to correspond to those price levels even if there is a change in the market so in other words the way the claim the sat out is that if you have a change in the market this information is coming from the exchange and if you have changes on the prices the way that we tool is constructed you will not miss your price because  price corresponds to the profitable but isn't that just exactly what the previous two opinions described as making the trader more efficient and making the trader have better information which those cases for an eligible as broaden that claim didn't provide any display of price information and so the court said how could it be solving the missing the price problem because the claims to open that were this claim is not this claim is very specifically a tool that makes the trader more efficient gives a trader better information is a better graphical display which seems to me to fall into the group of cases not just in the prior to trading tech cases but a lot of other cases from this court interpreting alison want to one as just different ways to do it to display and organize data instead of an actual improvement in computer technology rather we believe that that statement when you have an improved software and that makes the trading system better that there's an improvement in the trading system of course it has benefits to the trader just like what do you mean when you say trading system what i mean by the trading systems let me be very specific this claim is directed to the software that creates a new tool a new practical user interface that the trigger interacts with the gooey tool that gooey is the front end of the trading system just like in a cockpit at the pilot interacts with that's part of the trading system and so when you're improving that practical user interface and you're making it so that the trader doesn't miss his or her price you're improving the trading in face with it but that's not improving the functionality of the computer system the sim just improving the operators ability to effect to aid in order it's traitor is provided a benefit and that the trader will get his or her price i don't doubt that for a minute i think you're absolutely right but i don't know that that really is it is is an improvement on or an adjustment to the actual functionality of the computer system it just makes it easier for the trader it actually but the trader the software that's run on the system was my point is it doesn't change the trader herself does it change the way the computer functions it changes and it does change the way the software is constructed it does change how the trading system operates yes it does because the gooey the graphical user interface that the trader is interacting with is improved over the prior graphical user interface it's no different than a core wireless which which was a graphical user interface it was an improvement to the interface of course it had benefits to the user same thing with data engine another presidential and data engine was a good week case where it was an improve arrangement with tabs it improved of course it made it better for the user because the user could access the spreadsheets but the improvement was in the software it was in the interface but it also makes a typo or wireless i mean it seems to me that the ball is much more in line with in pitch where is actually changing the way a database or the way a spreadsheet program works that improve the efficiency of the computers operation rather than again i don't mean to harp on this interface that made it so that the user could access more information we believe that's very analogous to the situation where you have an improved graphical user interface that causes causes it so that the trader doesn't miss his or her price there's there's no there's no distinction between the provided the different functionality instead greatly simplified the ability to move from one page to the next so in data and then just to be clear data engine that invention that software invention could be run on any computer it doesn't matter what type of computer it made it was the front end that made the user be able to interact with the computing system in a better way i don't see the difference between that and having an improved interface for trading where you're making it so that the trader has benefits in speed and accuracy in other words the trader when a trader goes to trade the trader may have a trading strategy but that the the invention has nothing to do with that the invention all has to do with the interface the improvements of the interface that and said yeah that's a technical improvement to the gui it improves speed and accuracy so this court has already you continue to argue these presidential opinions probably wrong and wrong and you cited anyway but in any event  price information displayed there's no indicators there's no price information there's no quantity and we were asked at the hearing how can this claim be solving the missing the price problem when you're not displaying  i don't mean it are up to you but you're a couple minutes away from your rebuttal time is there anything else you want to move on to or do you want to stick with this question i think i would like to just real speed accuracy problem which actually resulted in an additional problem and that is that the inside market could leave the screen and so the old like five pattern is a very specific solution to that problem to keep the inside market has a very specific solution for that it basically says the user can adjust the number of price levels and then the and then the computer figures out where when the outside market gets close to the top or bottom of  spring issues an automatic repositioning command to keep the inside market on the screen and that is solving a problem with prior art it clearly means i mean specific solution to the problems these are classic problems with speed accuracy that's why this is what it's up what the reason why the court came down the way it did the court said you know these patents are background section about the time consuming nature of electronic trading and how eighty percent of it it's consumed by this last step where the trader reads the prices that are displayed and then and and according to the patent that was time consuming because the earlier buoys were not intuitive in terms of the trader appreciating that and how the prices were displayed and when they went to trade they had to do a number of keystrokes with so the seven hundred and sixty eight solves that according to the patent and if you read the briefs by providing this displaying data along access showing indicators of where the inside market is and allowing traders to execute orders with a single click it's not about them it's price and we know that because the axis in the seven hundred and sixty eight pattern can move in any moment so that instant that the trader goes to send a trade order that axis can move and he or she may mr price but don't take my word for it if we look at mr thomas he described sort of two ke this is that the appendix said eight thousand three hundred and fifty eight dollars he was discussing the relative movement of the indicators quote this movement which provides users with an intuitive feel for the behavior of the market for the product is not present in conventional dynamic screens that important to have the right context that pat and the only thing it does is automatically reset of the axis if we look at this nd presidential decision from last month to five hundred and fifty six it also built on admitted prior and substituted profit and loss patentee has described as the most important information for the trade all of this is about improving the trade or providing intuitive understanding of information we submit that done board's decisions in all three cases ought to be a forum for those  answer that part of the question how does it improve the computer it improves the computer by improving the graphical user interface this this trade or using the prior systems the prior are two ways at a problem the way that go he was arranged and here's the problem when the trader want to go kleck a price that price could change the rug to get pulled out from under the trader that was a problem with electronic trading caused by the front end of the trading system and this court but it doesn't do anything to the computer the computer is there it's been built with a certain capacity a certain speed of the ability for speed and it's just a question of how you used that's true that the invention can be used on conventional computers but that's missing the invention the invention is traders had a problem with the interface they missed their price from the rug being pulled out for them as a fixed order entry locations corresponding the price levels so that when the market changes you still get your price that's an accuracy problem that's a classic technical problem in these  of the language that it uses the four hundred and eleven dollars patent talks about speed and accuracy because you have indicators and moving relative to the price axis this patent actually requires fixed order entry locations corresponding to price levels such that when you go to make a trade if the inside market moves the price will flip out from under you that's solving the problem in the prior art it sounds to me like you arguing that it's even though the computer itself is going to function the same way every time you have a new or different interface that allows the trade r to interact with the computer in a different way that that is an improved functionality i wouldn't say that your honor i wouldn't say that every change to a guilty results in an improvement but it sounds to me like that's what you're arguing now what we're let me just be very clear in this particular case the seven hundred and sixty eight it's it's actually solving a specific problem speed accuracy problem so we're not saying that hey if you if you come up with a claim and you just add a conventional to do some type of trading that that would be but i don't mean to interrupt but when you say you've solved the problems beat accuracy cetera computer it's it's the problem is the way the prior art screens were stop the in the grid system with the prices changing that created the problem not how fast the user was the user could be the fastest trader in the world and click as fast as they could but the problem is one that data is coming from the exchange those prices on the cell flip out right before you make a trade that's a problem with the software that was solved by this and