our first case for argument is the state of perry versus wenzel which defines thank you are made please the court i am attorney robert warren's on behalf of the state of perry the pellets in this case were perry snus of the precedent of set by the district court is evident in the briefings that the defendants themselves components of this district court precedent are expressed by the city when it says in the brief that it believes a someone in their care and custody is not does not require any degree of medical attention unless that person has either a lost consciousness or b is bleeding profusely that has never been the standard if that is the standard that a person is put at risk the moment any arrest he is placed into the care custody of a city or county or state country the count y has an equally prepare eous decision in its attempt to make the district court decision the precedent of fiscal which is that as long as they don't declare a person in their custody then magically that person is no longer in their custody even if it's city even if that individual sitting without freedom the freedom to leave in their booking room with a nurse and a correctional officer standing beside a no court has ever upheld that is precedent either and it would create a dangerous loophole whereby a arrestee could be placed into a permanent purgatory where he's never in anybody's custody and nobody has any obligation to care for him even when he is not free to leave and fits the definition of custody traditionally applied under fourth amendment for spirit is there a transcript of the nine one one call placed by the county i do not know if there is rather i'm just interested in what might have been said during that call on another and another matter in your complaint you have claims under the eighth and fourteenth amendment and yet you change the basis of the claim to the fourth amendment or yes your honor that i think the fourth amendment is the proper analysis to apply in the district court did apply that properly and be under the fourth amendment standard it doesn't have to rise to a certain level of seriousness as it would be the case under the eighth amendment though we would suggest that under either standard it would be a political here given when the facts are considered in light of the plaintiff and in favorable light to the plaintiff we have a mr perry noted his seizure history when he was brought in that it had been and that he was on daily medication he had not received his daily medication that day that he actually has a seizure incident where he collapses and and his head on the concrete floor he's hospitalized the defendant see him suffer repeated seizures while he's in the hospital he's there multiple hours when the hospital discharges them they discharge him a specific instructions that to look out for these potential potential areas risk and if that happens to bring him right back to those included things like if it is a loss of bodily function was occurring such as was lacking the ability to walk or emulate the ability to talk or did he have control of his bodily functions after he left the hospital and it wasn't long after he left he started to struggle to walk struggle to talk he deaf akkad in his own pants he urinated on himself he started to drool he was starting to say help me in the you have problems breathing unfortunately the reaction of the defendants was not to review the discharge instruction returning to the hospital instead it was to put him in a depression hold put a spit mask on his face shackle him isolate him and tell him that if he acted like an animal they were going to treat him like a prison the effect is that all there was in your view no evidence of resistance by him and no you are in the course of this any interaction when he was in the custody of the city no you and that they were interpreted in his inability to function bo as resistance which it was not if they had paid attention to some of the instructions and noticed that he wasn't deaf acadian on himself as a matter of value he wasn't urinating on himself as a matter about he wasn't falling down collapsing and hitting his head as a matter of  doing this because he was losing bodily function which was a side effect of his condition of the ultimately the city defendants recognized the medical crisis i believe as one of the defendants put it took him over to the county they put brought him into the before they took him to the hospital at the first a prescreening he told them that he had had a seizure history and that he had had not been given his medication yet they didn't do anything about that ultimately he suffered a seizure while he was there in the jail hit his head on the ground and so they took him to the hospital at that point those are the events that happened before the hospital where he had to seizures at the hospital that is correct on the right who had what he was brought over to the county when the county nurse looked at him she saw he was a spit mask on self she saw me even fall off of the bench and nothing was done until the very last minute when he was already well having looked at the videotape seen and touch him she didn't try to get any of his vitals or anything that's correct  there's no attempt if she had attempted his vitals if she'd taken off the spit mask if she had taken off the shackles and secured him put an oxygen mask on him any of those steps he may be alive today and that was in part the testimony of the plaintiff's expert dr  defense urges their version of their expert that's a jury question rather than a district court question and then wanted to speak to this issue of whether he was in custody of him when he was at the county because the nurse did i mean it's not like he came up to the door of the county they looked at him and said oh he looks like he has a problem take him back to the hospital he actually came in the door way into the facility correct and two nurses looked at absolutely not county people were around that's correct and in fact it appeared to the county people were holding him in custody they were he was there for approximately twelve minutes before ultimately an ambulance was called for him he was there in their booking room where people routinely and regularly booked if that is defined as not custody every booking room in the country can now declare  person is no longer in their custody until they formally fill out a pay piece of paper that unilaterally declares that person in their custody that's never been the fourth amendment standard billy he's not free to walk out leave clearly he's and they're building their room with their corrections officers and their pre booking facility with a person recognizing him noticing him and calling the ambulance ultimately concerning in addition we had a case here where the city one of the city defendants recognized and thought that he was in county custody they thought he was in both joint city and county custody if we have a case where by unilateral self declaration a defendant can declare themselves to persons not of their custody it creates perverse finger point defenses where the city can say i was not in our custody used in the county facility county room county booking place are the county can say well we hadn't checked them in yet so it's not in our custody he's in a permanent purgatory where he's in effect of custody but nobody has any obligation to care for him and he can dial that's never going to work separately a thirty seven f third to eighty two this circuit determined that if an officer had a realistic opportunity to prevent it they were a constitutional harm to an individual there was a duty to do so so even if the county it was determined that the there was no custody of the county here the person here the nurse had the medical skill and capability to know the problem see the problem and had a duty to address the problem and just took no steps to do so is there any evidence that the nurse inquired of of any  the officers what his history was or what it occurred no you're right there's that should ask the officers about has he had seizures has he been to the hospital what's happening she had just heard that they thought he was a difficult person but she made no further that unless a very specific past fact pattern has happened before that the qualified immunity applies as the us supreme court determined anderson this is not to say that an official action is protected by qualified immunity unless the court from farmer on forward and by this court from benjamin and davison ortiz all the way through as to the state law claims of immunity and other two different aspects the immunity extends to policy making decisions that to truly discretionary decisions there's no discretionary duty about whether to give medical care to a person in their care custody in fact medical care itself is exempted is the kind of discretion that's not meant to be applied for state immunity there's a term in the scar p decision at two ninety two northwest second eight sixteen by the wisconsin supreme court and later the little decision reinforced that were to the negligence before the negligent performance of the non discretionary duty does not have immunity attached to it this was not a case where the police officer for making policy decisions about how to train officers or anything of that nature this was a case in which the duty was to provide needed medical care that was observable at the time and that is not something through its community applies  and state law finally as to the city defend its claim that there is no customer policy at issue there were two policies in particular the issue here the city had been training people that if a person was a person was talking they were breathing that gave them a missing structure that a person that they couldn't have a breathing problem if they were able to verbalize a single thought that has never been the case and in fact is a very dangerous and particular areas method of training people who have people in their care and custody the second custom policy which has been late recently rectified but was not present at the time was to have a review panel or some manner of disciplinary process in place so that when an officer made a mistake like th all the officers here did that there was some corrective disciplinary action taken unfortunately no corrective disciplinary action that happened in the more than a dozen deaths and what morkie care and custody since two thousand until the suit was brought and later a hundred twenty seven two main issues that i'd like for the court consider first sanctions under one thousand twenty seven are permitted only if a court determines first there is no legal or factual basis the only thing the district court determined was that the council below should have known that he was not in the custody of the county they should have known that and the reason they should have known that as of april of two thousand and thirteen is because of two depositions of county employees inspector schmidt and nursed big bird who both said well he wasn't in our custody and if that's the standard we're a defendant or an employee of defendant can simply say no where you have the city of milwaukee in the chief of police pointing the finger guess well again he had no they had no ok so put aside the you know whose custody is ian but there were certain county defendants identified that had no contact with them at all right well everybody was involved in terms of contact physically touching them that is correct well as there were some in or out of any any interaction with them that night well for example the sheriff that is correct but again judge williams what you have is you're doing discovery what they said what the judge is you should have known as soon as you deposed burgo and schmidt that the county not these individual finishes that the county should not have been involved and that's an entirely different situation where you have the city saying we as in both of our custody with regards to whether it's a tactical decision to leave the sheriff in or not there are other methods to alleviate or have that defendant reduce you write a letter saying hey if you don't do it i'm going to file ruhleben motion that was an opportunity the other problem with the nine hundred twenty seven sanctions besides the fact that there was a factual dispute as to custody was the fact there was no hearing judge ran to sue a spontaneous said i'm going to sanction you under nine hundred twenty seven the problem judge williams is that was the second time he had done it in january of two thousand and thirteen he saw a spontaneous sanction attorney james gindi because the city asked for the file of the expert witness and attorney guinea said rule thirty four i get thirty days so the city turns round moves to have the file produced in less than thirty days the motion is granted and granted turned around to sue a spine take sanctions him no opportunity hurt no hearing nothing just said i'm going to do that that is not what the case law is in this district you are allowed an opportunity to be heard maybe there is a factual reason maybe there is a legal justification but simply saying i'm going to sanction you is never been the standard in this district or in any other district under nine hundred twenty seven thank you thank you mr c prisoner any citizen if when and in their presence this person would evidence behaviors which would indicate that they are in an emergent term regency medical situation officers receive that first responder training as a normal part of their training also officers who are assigned to the city milwaukee jail facility receive an advanced course relative to working in that facility it's a temporary restraining or holding facility and they receive training relative to how to monitor printed prisoners how to attend to their needs including their medical needs and how to keep an eye on them should any situation occur while they are contained within that temporary facility it's not in dispute in this case that all the op will ensure screwed up pier well in this particular case there was no emergency medical situation that occurred ice ridiculous after after mr perry was released from the hospital he had a seizure per protocol officers who were attending to him at that time called for an e m t after they that was put on him later so after he had the initial stage was kind of an answer to my question while we were discussing what was why was it put on why was why was it why was that put on his face after he came back for treatment at the hospital  mr perry was drooling and spitting and emitting fluids from his mouth well that makes it worse of course for him if he has a mask over there he can't get rid of any of that stuff with regards to the do you head over the shoulder don't you understand if you block his mouth and he's got this terrible fluid coming out of his throat and so on you make him much worse off that barrier  mouth he it keeps the what's being expelled from the mouth from hitting other people the barrier fits very loosely there is space of inches between where that barrier the paper towel like barrier hits and the mouth itself he would still be able stand out anything cough anything the point of having that paper towel like material is to keep those fluids from striking other people that are your writing other people what the police are afraid of being spent on there is a concern relative to the shackled to the floor he can't even sit on the bench and then he's in the hallway he your innate sandefur kates on himself and he yells out he can't breathe isn't that a medical emergency and one of the officers at least according to the says if you're talking you're breathing and there's no medical care that was provided and that was when he was put in the compression hole and that's when he was given the spit man asked and one of the officer said if he was going to act like an animal he would be treated like he was in prison and then he was even with all of that he's placed in the cell with fifteen minute checks and he's in there and he's moaning and groaning and rolling around on the floor and nobody thinks there's a medical emergency he had just been released i understand that but at any medicare really or in the hospital all the time and then they have a relapse so they have some of that you still have to look at them carefully the nurses told them to be on the alert they knew he was having these seizures and everything and so this behavior suggests to me that he should have been returned to the hospital the two officers that accompanied him to the hospital to check officer crews were present when he had those two additional seizures at the hospital they observed him receiving two hospital with these officers they observed that he was all right and all that i get all that they go when they do find i'm talking about ok so he gets released to come back to the jail they've seen all of that and as we go it and at that point when he's released from questioned whether he was ready to be released with the nurses the nurses responded that he is fine with this is the effects of the medication there will be sleeping this drowsiness there will be left or g he is under the influence of medication and he's fine to be released they had wheel the squad car because of his lack of being able to emulate with those two on mr is mr perry's condition did not change from the point in time when he left the hospital to the point time that they placed him into the solitary cell when he was at the p you're in a hospital you have a serious problem they were released from the hospital it's not under all unusual to have for that for the released have been premature and you become a all are something you and your violently ill and have to be taken back to hospital not stuck and to and to yourself the officers did not observe anything which indicated to them that there was a change in that condition he was consistent from the condition he was in after receiving that medication he was placed in other person that's what the that's what your clients did not understand and your honor they may just like any other prison and any other prisoner just came from a here to call for the mts to bring him back we'll see he is six forty five they bring him back to the police station he's put in this cell after all of the things i've gone over i'm not going over that again but he's moaning and groaning and rolling around on the floor he goes into the cell at eight twenty and there's also blood in feces and urine on the floor of the cell and there's blood on the spit man us and they don't take him back to the hospital they take him the county right she doesn't touch him she's not using any kind of medical equipment he's not in a position to really answer so what is three us tell me what what what was the tria i'm i am unfamiliar with her trade because with regard to have you seen the video again and you've seen her be about as far as i am from the mike and she kind of leans down doesn't touch him done test him doesn't do anything doesn't ask the officers what's the deal house what kind of situation is enough right she talked to him he responded to her she made the determination she was going to wipe his face the mask was removed and during that whole interaction she a trained nurse did not reach the conclusion that he was experiencing an emergency medical situation it was only until after he l consciousness that she made that determination but she didn't go train or she didn't know any of his history right because she didn't bother to get the history from anybody he had what she heard was you know he's problematic but did you do you have any evidence that she said t the officers who brought him in what's the deal what's happened with this guy what's going on you know and here just get right into the facility he was only there for a few moments right but i hear word from the hospital had come with him and no i don't believe she had an opportunity yet to review that paperwork to review the paperwork or ask any question did not ask any questions of anybody my understanding is she spoke with mr perry and she asked him questions and he did respond to her by confirming his name at one point during that initial interaction and it says she assesses him and she says could only nod in his responses and she didn't remove the spit mass to ask if he was having any trouble breathing and then virgo refuses to book him and says he's not medically clear that was about that was a few minutes later accompanied mr perry from his time in the hospital his transport to the p p s and then as he was being brought into the cell the solitary cell temporarily before was transferred to the c g out so they were present up until the time he was placed in that  i'm trying to do is this transition point yes when it's transferred to the county yes what did cruz and or jax tell leath herson who was receiving them in the county th not present when he was brought over to the county different officers transported him to the county but within his information with the paperwork from the hospital you do anybody from the city tell them about his seizures or medication one says anything to her about his private history or what it happened no one the city defendants don't say and i understand it's not the two that brought him into retirement but right to that then brought him and didn't give any history or anything i don't believe so they did have the paperwork from the hospital but keep in mind when those two obvious series went to the jail to get mr perry to take them to the county he was standing he was ambulating on his own he had removed that mask and they were walking along side him like he was walking to the elevator then he was walking from the elevator to the convenience vehicle his knees buckled as he was coming through the doors to the sally port area so from the officers perspective there was nothing about him which indicated that he was having any kind of medical difficult think you're talking about the county correct crown if you're the city right lima city you have that's what i believe from the videotape that's what was shown and from her deposition testimony that's virgo was her name but yes there is a nurse virgo and and so there were a couple of medical care givers that were there the officer is brought mr after he began to buckle brought him over to their location and deferred essentially to the nurses taking care of him from that point forward the thing that bothers me is and everybody else is going to express themselves this me is that encounter somebody from the city didn't give some verbal detail about why this guy's newser buckling with set or that he's had seizures he's been in the hospital etc so instead of saying this guy needs an ambulance right now the disc you are the paperwork in then they go see kind of a routine intake and there seems to be one after another have some sort of an encounter briefly whatever until somebody realizes this guy's in trouble and frankly he's dying he's he died of a heart attack we are actually no cracked which was something that was an forseeable to the amil my son forseeable i'm not sure what they would have done at that point that's why i'm asking what the city correct did the city fulfill all of its obligations and not not them for an hour one because that's where i see the vulnerability here i believe the city employees did iran or the officers now the word say and then move it to two other city people in the two to other city people who didn't know all his background delivered him well they are they actually he was put into the jail cell they gave the information including the half of the paperwork to officer diaz berger who serve the role as the jail me trainer one who is responsible for making cell checks and so forth and also lieutenant roberts and so they had that information those individuals did know that mr perry had come from the hospital and that he had the hospital paperwork but from the point time that he had come from the hospital had been placed in the cell there was no observation of any seizure activity in fact he appeared to improve the effects of the dalian appeared to be wearing off because he  emulate himself he was standing he was walking he had taken this fitness but there was testimony even from a jail janitor mr picker who said that when he was in the hallway mr period actually stopped to me asked him what time it was or something about the time so he appeared to be if you're if you're talking you're breathing that particular phrase player standing in something wet when officers get the american heart association first responder training they're given c p r training and that's an adage that's used by trainers when doing the other alleyways of the a b c s to talk about airway breathing and so forth and one adage that's used in the context of training that officers recall hearing was something the effect that if you're if you're talking you're breathing meeting you're talking you're he still put in a cell and he's grown and rolling around all the time he's in a cell there no inquiries made about whether there's some medical issue at least on the record there's no evidence of what anyone said to him or what these checks revealed every fifteen gees on he appeared to be acting consistently with how he acted when he came into the jail facilities was what that he was seated on the floor that he appeared to be somewhat resistant that he was drooling and spitting she knew that he had received medication  you're given that you didn't answer that question which she did not testify that he was sitting up she testified that she heard him grunting and making noises and that he was on the floor and had been rolling she had observed that he will usually let me argue means a person is just slumped over or just you know not doing acquit at least that's how i would view it but he's doing more than that from her perspective this was not inconsistent with the behavior she observed when he first came back from the hospital and she understood that his behaviors were such because they were affected by the medication he received at the hospital there was nothing that alarmed her compared to what she had seed earlier to give her any indication that this was a change in condition that this was something significant that was going on he was moaning and groaning in the  hospital when he left the hospital alone or grown or so when he was left the hospital he was not as responsive to the officers as he had been when he first came in the hospital as far as the communication the verbal communication were soft they had to yes they good morning your honor with regard to the lucky county it is important to note that there is no melting before the court there is no pattern and practice claim before the court the only issues before the court can full individual capacity claims against the walky county employees there is an individual capacity claim against officer douglas whose only  involvement in this case was that he heard a medical emergency had been declared he picked up a recipe for sesa taishan bag with medical equipment he took it into the pre booking room he gave it to the nurse and he walked out he was trying to figure out the transition and you know there's a lot of a lot of problems with the city and i'm trying to figure out now what did the county know that the initial encounter the county knew only that there was a prisoner in route who had been described as being combative that's cool and one i'm sorry sheehan who had been what described as being combative combat combat that somebody is term who was delivering him that's a term the city officers used to describe the prisoner in their custody now you can proceed through the process of each encounter yes there is an individual capacity claim against officer jeff j f f no no no give us the facts so he gets to the county that's what judgment is asking ok the fact is he gets to the facility it looks when you see him that he's been dragged into this facility there are a couple county officers that are they are correct that area officers in right pretend to see him yes right ok they see him he's taken to the bench across from the nursing station because he can't walk on his own and at this time his now soiled his pants his soil pants around his ankles and have slid to the floor and he can't sit up right that's exactly right your honor what is significant is that he arrived at eight forty two sergeant hale came into the room at eight forty three at eight forty three he was moved to the bench at eight forty four nurse virgo enters the room at eight forty five nurses when soul enters the room and it eight forty six tell sergeant hale they will not accept this prisoner that i call at the ambulance within four minutes of mr perry arriving at the pre booking room in the custody of the city a nurse made the decision not to accept him and instead to call that ambulance an ambulance was called at eight forty eight the ambulance arrived at eight fifty five from beginning to end only thirteen minutes went by in the decision to call the ambulance was made in four minutes it was not made it eight fifty two no at eight fifty two was an emergency was declared by the nurse at eight fifty two that's when officer douglas brings the represents a taishan bag an officer jeff brings in the defender later there is also an individual capacity claim against officer holmes officer holmes was in the glass control tower under strict orders not to leave because he controlled the doors to the outside world his orders were don't leave the control tower and he didn't leave the control tower there is an individual capacity claim as i've said against nurse burgo who call for an ambulance four minutes after mr perry arrived and two minutes after she entered the room there is in ergo comments a virgo comes on she's about a foot away from him she we can't see on the videotape virgo virgo leaves though at some point she approaches him she's there for a few seconds she doesn't take any vitals or anything she goes back behind whatever that will barrier thing is that  wallace and then we see when she'll come out because wenzel is the one who doesn't take the vitals and decides that he needs to be watched for a bit and then the ambulances call i think that's correct and when you watch the video sergeant hale to call an ambulance sergeant hale arranges for the ambulance to be call at eight forty eight that is extremely prompt medical care it cannot be said that any as i began these are individual capacity claims for which qualified immunity clause in the two thousand and fifteen term as your honors well kno so let me ask you this because this is a really an eight the mimic kind this is a fourth amendment claim so isn't the question whether a reasonable person carries a position would have felt free to leave the county facility  is absolutely true that perry should not have felt that he was free to leave he wasn't for italy but he was afraid of leave because he was in the custody of the city why do you say that when he  falls that that's not true what's not true he wasn't there he was taken to the pre booking room where prisoners are cleared to go into the bookie within four minutes of his right what do you mean he couldn't vital for anything right she didn't take his vitals or anything in two minutes now when she comes out and does that first assessment when you say he's not she's not taking his temperature she's not doing any of his vitals right that's right yeah but it and but but to get back to the question are you saying you can never have joint custody i mean he was in a county facility the city was there is well so i think he's in the custody of the county i understand he's not formally in custody he hasn't been processed but who's got the duty when they're when the you know once he walks through that door is the county the county has some responsibility well to answer the last part of the question first the county arranged for an ambulance to come within four minutes the first part of your question is can there be joint custody i assume there can't be joint custody there are plants there is a and there can be yes but that is not this case mr perry  honestly went to stick with where you were going with each individual how much time they spent in trying the beginning to the end of the county's well call and encounters no one caught custody well you're honored obviously he died on site yes so we're have this time period yes and that's why i keep asking about the what when the city released him or relinquished him or whatever you want to call it what did the county people then do and that to me at least is important to what extent the county is liable at eight forty six nurse virgo tells sergeant hale to call the ambulance at eight forty eight hale makes arrangements for an ambulance to be called now they complain that two minutes took too long apparently that is the appellant's there all right well that's to do no that's two minutes he said i don't  obvious you can see it on the tape that mr perry's condition worsens in they call a medical emergency yeah well you know this is summary judgment so i understand your position that they were acting very pro but the problem i have is someone else could take a different view the jury could take a different view when they see that he was left alone on the floor rolling around none of the nurses really rendered any aid or took his vitals why couldn't they look at that and determine that the nurses actions were not reasonable under the fourth amendment analysis because the first time the vials were taken was after the spit mass was taken off and he was not breathing so i mean i understand your position this was rapid fire we treated him very quickly but the jury might look at that differently but your honor since two thousand and fifteen the law of qualified of unity is that the plaintiff has the burden of showing that every reasonable officer would know beyond the bait that the officer was filey somebody is constitutional rights and the supreme court has well a very go was as as  she walked away from a clearly distressed man in the final minutes of this life to confer with an on call doctor about rejecting perry and then started doing paperwork that is simply incorrect at eight forty six durst  walked away she walked away to make arrangements to call an ambulance later after the ambulance had been called there was a time when nurse lee ambulances in route nurse vergel walked away again to call dr scribner who is the medical director of the jail that is a perfect both of these things on her part were perfectly reasonable not i'm not a nurse they have come on that's the stupidest thing i've heard in a lot of stupid things today you're not a nurse i can't you're supposed to know about the all of the other people who are involved in the case what they can do is supposed to know what they can do you know as opposed to just say oh i'm not a nurse i don't know anything in the two minutes of vailable to nurse ergo i can't imagine anything she could have done that would have had any effect on the outcome of this case who would remove the mask who saw the eyes  that she sees she so my understanding is he nodded his responses to her he didn't rule the spit man she didn't ask him if he was having any trouble breathing right when she first time that's true but not complete she asked him who he was and he nodded then she asked him a question that would require him to verbalize and he didn't and then she concluded and he did and she didn't ask him if he was having any the spit mask was removed at age fifty one his head and his eyes rolled back he was no longer breathing vomiting blood was on his face and left ear that's when they tried to revive him that's eight fifty one eight fifty two the medical bag and at eight fifty three officer jeff brings the portable the fibular right and so all of that equipment was available to the nurses because it was right there in the it was it right there in the nurse's office  know no no i'm talking about when she first comes to assess and this equipment was obviously available because it ultimately got there will surely not ask for any of that yet when she did her initial question that's absolutely true we know that's true because the emergency was declared eight fifty two and the equipment arrived at eight fifty three so that's what i'm saying equipment was readily available yes quickly available so had the nurse made a different assessment when she first saw him that equipment could have come a minute later it did not yet time matters in a situation like that you agree with that admin it's a matter that is absolutely true so my point is this was a summary judgment matter and so this is a question that should have been put before the jury and not determined by the court particularly given now these additional circumstances in terms of what was available to her while it's true that it's a every reasonable officer would have known beyond debate that the constitutional rights were being violated that's the current state of qualified immunity law it cannot be said that every reasonable officer in the prebooking room for the county would have known beyond debate they had a medical emergency shouldn't been called a fifty two but it should have been called for example at eight forty six six minutes earlier but that doesn't cover the nurses that argument doesn't cover the nurses and their potential liability well of course it does how don't see it that is the nurse is a qualified medical person if i buy your argument in terms of the county officials it doesn't cover the nurses to the nurses a county employee i understand that he says she's supposed to have training with officers done and or stand the officer says you know they got her to the nurse got him to the nurse and so they kind of defer to the medical judgment of the nurse i'm just saying that doesn't get the nurses off the hook the nurses are entitled to qualified immunity and they call an ambulance within two yes i know we've heard about the ambulance but we're going to have to move on with a lot of time for everybody so thank you very m briefly as to the county first the plaintiff's expert dr walden testified as to all the different things the the nurses could have done and should have done within the medical standard of care that included checking the vitals move the spit mask move the shackles stabilize his body give an oxygen mask if any of those things that happened six minutes earlier he may be alive today that is why they still belong in the case in the jury should make a determination as to the county's nurses lined  up as to the issue of what kind of officers are being held liable to those that are competent it's not those that have failed to meet up the standards it's not the subjective interpretation of the individual officer it's what would a competent reasonable officer do as to whether things changed between when he was in the hospital when he was discharged and afterwards when he was discharged he wasn't deaf acadian himself he wasn't your knitting on himself he wasn't ruling he wasn't falling down he didn't have all of the problems that he quickly exhibited soon thereafter which to go to the court concerned about the spit mask and other aspects in the discharge statement that was given to the officers they noted the risks of the seizure included someone who wanted to be on the floor reading standing up or not being able to emulate in a particular they expressed concern about to prevent certain injuries from occurring promote drainage of oral secretions out of the mouth and prevent choking because such drilling is an indication of an oncoming seizure other physical stress it wasn't a sign of someone trying to be disruptive this was a death that was avoidable with simply competent care the case should be reinstated thank you but just one by the slap and said that the spit mass doesn't actually prevent you from spitting the plate it's expert testimony was the spit mask further inhibited his ability to properly grieve and to be able to get