gunner's only by the internet can a single individual one person masquerade or hold him or herself out as thousands of individuals or thousands of unique people to millions of people and this  curs by way of fake website registrations what happens is one person eleven individual can register for thousands tens of thousands of fake web accounts at say an amazon or a social networking site they can then publish what appears to be thousands or hundreds of favorable reviews of low quality products to exert influence to cause people to purchase those products they can publish news articles that are inaccurate news articles and then in doing so the people that are viewing this think that what they're seeing are thousands of individuals but they're not they're just one person that is only possible by way of the internet so the question became fifteen years ago how could this be prevented obviously websites they want to get him at registrants to register for their website the likes of an amazon or a new york times or someone they want registrants to register for their thousand and six timeframe and they came up with an idea that idea was to use a phone number in an unconventional manner to use a phone number in a way that hadn't been used before obviously people would use phone numbers to make telephone calls will tell us and came up with the idea they realized not all phone numbers are created equal but they realized is that they could use a phone number itself or more particularly three attributes associated three characteristics associated with the phone number as a trust metric they realized that because not all telephones are created equal some telephone numbers are associated with certain geographic areas that might be higher that might be associated with higher instances of fraud some phone numbers are of certain types that lend themselves to fraud for example one type of phone number is a landline residential addresses are typically used to be associated with landlines we call them landlines that's one type of phone another type of phone that the founders tell us and came up with her realized existed was void for business is an acronym it stands for voice over internet protocol this was a game changer can i ask a hypothetical place or what if i have a service where i don't thank people all around the country get robo calls they get  calls from fraudsters trying to swindle them and i have a service where i have this massive database i've collected of phone numbers and i've been able to through a lot of like work been able to investigate and figure out a whole long list of phone numbers that are associated with fraudsters or robo callers and things like that and then  people can access my website with my database for a fee would that be a patent eligible invention so i think  i mean i think if the claims made i would need to know the claims of that of the actual invention at issue i think of the claims were directed only to that electronically would there would there be a step like the last step in our claim that would allow or disallow registering based on determining those characteristics ok here here's another one another hypothetical what if i have a website and i only want certain people to access my website people that i deem to be trustworthy so you give me you want to access my website and you give me your name maybe you give me some other personal information let's say your social security number and then through a look up table through a massive database i have access to i have everybody's name and social security number and their associated credit history criminal record any litigation they've been involved in anything like that and then through that i'm able to electronically determine whether i deem this would be customer trustworthy to access my web site with that the pat knowledgeable i think what i what i'd want to know more about their your honor is to what extent is there a technological analysis to determine whether what whether whatever factors you might consider factors that would be indicative of a fraud credit his bad credit history you know there's i feel there's a lien on your house there you have a criminal record you've been arrested for fraud and so through those very illuminating  disha i've concluded that no you may not access my website so your proposal is that someone was able to create an extraordinarily massive database with potentially billions of entries that would house an extraordinary amount of information yes and then in way to increase like i said the security of a computer system and prevent fraud what if instead of a massive database it's just a massive book i think at that point we've gone and we we've moved into a situation where  it's not feasible that someone would be able to review a book in the in the time necessary to make a registration decision i don't think that would be the type of activity that would i think you're caught you're your hypothetical has moved into an area that well my my a prior hypothetical about a massive electronic database the claim doesn't say anything about the technical act of how you are able to quickly access a given name of a person in that massive database it just says electronically determined by you know looking through that massive database period t our claim does say that and it's all to facilitate the last step of our claim but my point is at that it claimed that that level of generality there's no technical activity actually going on there there's no specificity of what technical factors actually taking place other than the broad notion of there's a database over here go look it up if you are correct but that's that that is obviously you know as with as with the receiving before the p tab and asked with you know what we explained to the northern district and even the central district of california that the money shot for lack of a better term is then the registering sure we'd store stuff in an electronic database but what we did was we come up and we came up with the idea but it doesn't affect can computer functionality right it's just a question of what information you put in the database and the midpoint invention is putting supposedly in the kind of information in the database right it not that that is incorrect it does increase the computer functionality increases what does it do other than to find what the database consists of it increases the efficacy of preventing fraudulent registrations to register based on those character pres not an efficacy that's related to computer functionality it's related to the content of the database the to register based on those attributes increases the security of the system i think if it would help our fears about you i can quote try to quickly compare and contrast a system that uses this and doesn't in two thousand and five people were aware and they were just trying to use two factor authentication this node notion when you try to log in to a bank or a bank's website they want to send you a code like let's just assume technically in fact increase the functionality of a computer in the in fish way in fish also says that a process increases or improves a technological process that it's an eligible and that's what this system does the system works the system is being used on uses the system today and it is being used effectively to prevent fraudulent registrations facebook last year reportedly attempted to remove by point four billion fraudulent registrations this is a massive problem that even twelve you know acknowledges exists and you're honored when one person wins when a company registers based on these attributes they're able to effectively reduce and prevent fraud in a way that has never been done before it's not a strata alice kids that invention was pretty useful and that went down under one hundred and one dollars ours are our invention is unique to the internet we're not saying we're not saying there was some historical brick and mortar process that historically has been done and now we just do it on the end we're not saying that what we're saying is hey that the different types of  characteristic of a phone number namely if it's void that's one of the biggest ones so voice over internet protocol allows this that allows something that hasn't been allowed in the in the past it allows someone to obtain phone numbers in ma those codes and amazon now has one thousand fake web accounts and all the problems that are associated with those contrast that with it with amazon of the likes of amazon that would implement our intention departing from that known approach or that available  characteristics and then make a registration decision based on those characteristics it would realize for example that those are void numbers and if it had a rule that said point numbers aren't allowed those will be kept out of those to be not stored in amazon system about you know the industry a lot about the history in the past but that's not what those claims are the claim of the other three for that matter is claim one actually recites if you look at the claim of language what issue that's kept coming up is this is not a fraud restricted claim this is a claim that the judge identified as verifying identity that's the limit no where does it say anything about fraud and in fact a specification talks about multiple reasons targeted advertising like the nebraska exclusion clause o column eight we don't want to service warranties out of nebraska so we're going to exclude nebraska and then fraud is the preferred embodiment but when you really get down to it the claim is not fraud limited so this is the real problem with thirty four claim  breath and that was one of the issues that was coming up europe what are the restrictions on that clay and if you look it's not limited to fraud and then look at the next step on how the information is determined so we go to the prosecution it was originally just determined and then and in response to what i want rejection they put in electronically determined that it's not like he's looking it up in a database and in fact the patent itself discloses what electronically determining means and it eight it talks about using the ten digit phone number all of this special information that mr camacho talked about is already in that phone number it has been for all of history you can look at the phone number to understand geography area code tells me where i'm from eight o six tells me i'm from amarillo texas or at least the panhandle you can look at the next digits and you know whether it's out west and say for landlines for linux you can look at the next digits and even even t portable for a decade or more since two thousand and i got people all the time had you know correct texas cell phones at least maybe this is only on the mobile side i don't actually think it is only on the low side is it well you know on the mobile side there are signs to specific carrier right because i have no idea where they where they live they grew up in texas and they haven't been in texas for twenty years correct except my accent maybe kicks it up but what you can see is from the database you know what carrier changing from landlines to cell phones it's just generic so there's nothing about determining and then you look at the next piece about the analysis step the great good registering get a claim construction here no it did not  has separated and talked about registering and then based on two separate things and then in the briefing i believe tell us i talk about registry based on what the dot dot dot in their registering is the active story and you can see that in so there's nothing special about registering and then based on i mean the limitations of registering users so what is that doesn't mean storing the user id when it's storing information related to the identity of the user  so it just means your i mean according to the story user specific information appendix seventy three paragraph one hundred and forty and that's straight out of the complaint perfectly usable here and me shows that registering has been used in its broadest sense it's just storing information about the user and then the next piece based on there is no definition of what based on means all it means is that we have to use those three pieces of information and the minus the technology is nothing except an abstract idea i'm going to verify you based on one thing and then another say it's all two factor authentication but now we're bringing in telephones and now you're i guess texting some after someone come to the access website and use the password of some sort now the web site is communicating to that user or hopefully communicating you that user have some verification code that then basically what they're trying to do is preempt the use of those three pieces of information along with an s a nest of those three piece of information are embedded in the phone number so if you're using the phone number and looking up information in publicly available data bases then that's going to be preempted because there are no other restrictions on a claim all the other issue that came up in the questions was whether the computer functionality was changed and if you look at these clouds it does not do anything  other than use the computers in the way they are treated if you compare this to cora for example and you can see where decorum you were modifying the bias and where you were putting information and it was important i'm using these parts of the computer and interacting and if you look at d d r for example the d d r was basically spoofing the computer to make it operate in a specific way that it didn't want to operate you were in the i think that's the language r uses and that follows and fair warning and brigitte post about making the computer operate in an abnormal way nothing about these claims makes the computer operate an abnormal way what it's doing is just using the computer to do things and i think that was  strated wonderfully with the example about one of my databases really big well the answer was that would be me from the other side the answer was that you keep it from being an abstract idea that you have to have a computer but that's abstract idea and what they're wanting to do is say well because there are a lot of phone numbers to look up and we have to go to database and look at all of this information that keeps it from being an abstract idea well you could do that from a phone book and in fact these claims are s they let you do it from a folk or from a small database it could be just m r i of texas and that doesn't take long to get there so this case looks a lot like several others the courts already seen and you notice the district the content extraction is a wonderful case that fits very closely these claims and content to track to that was collection of data there was recognizing certain data within that collected data so i pick up my phone number i recognize my information that's in that phone number the geography the carrier the phone type which is all described in the patent as prior knowledge and then i store something based on what i recogniz continent traction and this court found that to be you know abstract idea of another one that i think there's very close is bridge and post when you look at bridge and post it had that same kind of idea about using identifiers and information with that identifiers again it was abstract sports had that chance to look at this data that is not different it's just typical data  the one that i think comes up in the briefing that when you say typical data m f it's your argument goes so far as to say for example that authentic of a registration system that demands the been on the the claim if the claim was broad to just using biometric information to confirm identity then yes but if it was something specific about how you were doing that say the fingerprint but using a fingerprint confirm identity i mean that would be i think the definition of abstract at that level if you're going that broad if you're looking at something specific in there about the techniques about you know looking at the ridges and mapping you ridge to the next you know if you didn't study your fingerprint analysis you know it's a park or not a science is that because fingerprint identification was well the concept of severe print identification is well  no but this court has of the case that talks about if you're taking something that used to be subjective and moving it to something that scientific mathematical and i think that's what fingerprint analysis was it you know the examiners were objective or subjective idea of using a computer to analyze or to to analyze biometric data it would be abstract i think that takes us to you know sri which is the case they really not a lot in sri is very distinguishable from this current case and they like sri because it uses kind of this broad based on type of language and this list of a list of events kind of like they use you're looking at a phone number looking at a geography but sri which you know is the only eligible case that they really rely on heavily doesn't map up nicely there are a couple reasons in this court pointed out one that sri actually is limited to detecting suspicious data it's in the claim in the court specifically found that the human mind isn't geared or capable of looking at the type of data that they were detecting and determining whether or not it was suspicious because the type of data here was something very specific to the nature of the fraud you know things like network packet data transfer commands network packet data transfer errors and then the sri court went on it's that by the way you're doing more than just storing that information you're actually integrating those reports and that was a specific comment about integrating the report into a hierarchical monitor so there's a suppose we suppose   would that be pattern eligible as the as a method of detecting fraudulent phone call if it's written in a specific way that gets a lot closer because you're dealing with the technology i'm listening act idea actually shows up in their bat they talk about looking for signal quality and and going down that level of of true computer detail but that's not what shows up in the thirty four it's like it's much broader than that doesn't sri cover they use the information the content the payload of the packet and not just characteristics of that packet and its transmission  i thought it did so i mean i'm looking at the claim here and it's talking about deploying a plurality of network monitors in an enterprise network and then it detects with those network monitors suspicious network activity and then based on an  of network traffic data selected from the following categories and then gives that very specific list of information that i didn't know it made me i looked at it recently so them maybe maybe you don't know but i thought that those categories did not exclude which meant the claim covered the use of that payload of packets and not any of essentially technological transmission information and i'm just looking at the claim here that that level i'm i just can't answer your question ok it's that because that would possible but the way sri was it was written it talks about you know that this type of activity is not something that the human mind would ever detect or understand looking at this network data it is an unusual type of data that we're not used to dealing with compare that to what's going on with the thirty four patents and where they admit that the phone number itself contains all of the information that we're looking at geography phone type carrier you just need to get it out there either you can do it through looking it up in a book or you can look it up in a big database and that would make it fast and just because it's faster dealing with lots of data doesn't get his work we need to be passed that level o this pact is related to reducing fraud tullio in its own words at its red briefs page twenty four said this patent is directed to reducing fraudulent account creation system just storing information said to do with not just one information at all keeping stop keeping bad stuff off the books reducing fraudulent account creation by using characteristics of the user's telephone number your honour's that is not abstract the p tab said something similar we put it on our blue breathed a page three the central district said the same thing that's what