and i respond and say what this computer software program that's told on the internet and people use the software to fill out their own forms response has always done well how can that make him a paid essentially you know that's the crux of the problem really is the web site has two parts there's this thing that he used to call the vault which is a bunch of information i ship statements and then there is the software the computer exemptions it didn't choose the exemptions there's a form called exemptions and it said if you want to claim this property exempted mr reed also testified he put the mouse on the block or it's to exempt some sort of box came up and said if you want to claim this exam click the box and from there it shows you the code sections that allow the exemptions under california law and you have to choose congress and i'm not surprised at all that people were were confused sure ninety percent of them are purchased by lawyers but there's no requirement that you have to be a lawyer to buy it won't you tell us some cases different from all the other cases in which he's been found to be a bankruptcy  rid of the things he did what was the next few months there were twenty or thirty cases filed around the country and i started handling all those for him and i started calling trying to make everybody trying to pitch them on the software it he went out of business everywhere else about a month or so a few weeks later because he just couldn't afford to defend these cases all over the country so the  customer in the northern district of california that you ever provided any services to for money and re pay every one of those customers whatever money you've got if customer used the software and actually filed bankruptcy that's way beyond the evidence that was presented at trial at most the evidence presented at trial is that right now also as the same as pull out right t actually information that you type then and again the information is required there's no computer on pick which forms you file it doesn't pick which parts of the form you fill out it's all required but what your data safe and by the way i brought a password to the trial i offer judge a new system and i can go back you know you can go online and pull up the website take a look at it and show you i didn't get too far with that comment but  i'm sorry that i answer your question all the farms as fox's what's your name first name last name address those security number you type in those boxes and there's no exposed credit a new page comes up take the name address account number and it says check whether their priority are secured or unsecured it doesn't tell you what a priority creditor is you have to do that yourself well first screw that up all preparing their documents for them but what kills me is in paragraph mind of the judgment part because he's been trying for the rest of us life from ever acting as a paid prepare better i never considered whether or not we have to give him his hundred ninety nine dollars back made much difference the question is this can anybody sell software in the future without having the  human contacts so long as a bankruptcy petition preparer follows the rules that are set forth in our having us the one ten which requires the petition prepare to among other things sign the document provide a co the same thing an individual would do in sitting down with an individual to prepare the petition it decides what questions need to be asked the information decides where to put it in the forms and generates the web d so if you just put it on the computer if it's not actually generating your forearms in deciding where but not a flow chart or something that direction it might be unauthorized practice to depending how far it goes but it wouldn't necessarily very fine cut thing because if you had a book that laid everything now in such a way that anybody would get to the same place i would have a lot of trouble saying that that's not an author i practice of law but simply reporting information i think it would be a much closer question and here i think you know the combination of choosing the exemption and giving that legal what giving legal advice and even into the bankruptcy laws in the dialog boxes and determine what information and the court relied on the judgment in the other cases including the letter that petition for paris had engaged in this contract before and so under one ten the court issued a permanent injunction so i don't doesn't mean that someone else could not prepare forms that were appropriate and i'm in qualifications so this deals with your client doesn't thought extract fellated in two and therefore never be a bankruptcy prepare ever again for the rest of your life to get back everybody that you're ever ran into their money and it went way way way way way beyond and it does affect how people are going to use software or computer websites or books or self help programs in the future