the planning meeting committee meeting of november fifth two thousand and fifteen please come to order my name is donna couch and the chair of the committee before we start can we have everybody turn off all their noise making devices make sure your cell phones are on  silent mode please because the rings will ask who it was and what they want i think it's happened before i first want to welcome the members of this up as well from the parks department we have robert helgerson on the first one will be up and he might as well i don't know maybe we should have you come down in the back yeah i know you don't want to good morning and we'll get back to you in just a little bit ladies all right up on the agenda members today we have two items you have p c thirteen which is the park zoning district comprehensive update and p c ten amended the comprehensive zoning ordinance relating to short term rental homes first we're going to do testimony public testimony for individuals testifying in the chamber please sign up in the back over there outside the chamber door if you're testifying from a remote testimony site please check in with  time or system will work the green light will be on for three minutes the yellow light will be on for one minute and when the red light goes on please finish your lap it's basically your last sentence if you can record and so the members can get it down when they're writing it down all right members without any objection will start public testimony with ok first to testify is curt  followed by jim wayne hospitality business for nearly twenty years currently i'm employed at tropical villa vacations i've been there for a little over two years now tropical vilification is a small business and manage hundred not necessarily a hundred but so when you somebody comes and rents from you is it something if you were to say we have no more than they would go to a hotel or is it something that they would try and find another house or just not come to maui what's what your experience on our experiences will be to get those inquiries but of course try to get them to book with us and if we have nothing available we'll find something that's comparable in arm market ok and how many people do you employ does your company employ we employ about twenty five people ok and that's just in your have a property of two four five pop a place on the island of molokai i'm here on ordinance thirty nine forty one and i'd also like to express my gratitude to the planning staff john clayton civil and gale for being so helpful and cooperate of in my application process i've been a homeowner all molokai for over fifteen years our home is located on the west end of the island in the ranch lands community all the homes that neighborhood are single family residences agriculturally and are mostly s m a status we are currently paying the highest single water rates in the state we have periodically rented our home to off island visitors and the local community for over fifteen years we play o taxes annually and as a result of running our home we've employed many local residents for years including groundskeepers house cleaners property managers tour guides cooks and our guests contribute to the local economy in many ways  and as you know mocha is a unique island with only one small hotel i'm here today because i wanted to step forward and get legal i currently have a submitted application and that i have completed the entire application myself including a farm plan and i am one of a few of the fellow residents and my immediate neighbors who are attempting to come forward and get compliant so it's important for you to know that i am so supportive of the spirit of the ordinance and i've worked closely with the planning department on their feedback in my application however on october sixteenth i met find myself stuck on a notice a violation status to the ordinance language that prohibits any advertising until a valid permit is issued and it's important for you to know that upon learning of this ordinance  in march i immediately shut down all my advertising and which was soley with the r b o and instructed my hosting company to pull down my website from its u r l and begin to complete my application and all this is documented and has been given to the planning department previously i was shocked to learn it of this and over the and and it would've been completely irresponsible from a new have been advertising in the middle of this process and i assure you that i haven't that now as a result of the of in the middle of how hard this is been financially i'm now possibly subject to a five year banned from applying regarding the n o v it's been given no specifics as to what was found on the internet however it's my understanding from various conversations that went in search of the internet at large for my property in conjunction with this farm plan process review was conducted a latent web advertisement is still found for our ohms for horror home somewhere out there on the internet speaking directly with google yesterday recently i finally figured out how to restrict the internet believe it or not when you screw do a google search you're not going to the internet you are going to google's internal internet they scrape down the entire internet put it on their own proprietary servers and that's what you are reviewing it is not my u r l i also went to my neighbor's websites and discovered recently that they're having the same problems to are blatantly trying to circumvent this ordinance and in summary i would like to ask the committee and the council to please consider giving staff additional discretion to work closely with the applicants regarding these uncontrollable types of search operatives that only active advertising is considered in violation and those people who are actively everybody wrap it up should be held in violation thank you thank you so much i appreciate your time members any questions to the testifier mr victory no thank you  you for this information so what if i understand you correctly even though you did immediate be being notified take down whatever advertising you knew existed this came up from somewhere that you were unaware of as far as advertising was concerned that is exactly correct there is a latent footprint all over the internet and so if you wanted to take what methods or what steps do you have to take to get rid of those advertising very complicated and it took me quite some time to figure it out i spent a lot of time on the phone with google and they finally taught me how to go into their developer tools and rescreen their servers to remove my website off their servers now i have to do that with a bang and everybody else out there and i can't i'm not a tech guy but i am kind and now that you know words you're learning by necessity i'm yeah and i and i am i am trying to act in good faith i'm not the one that's actively violating that's ok well i thank you for the information and i we have a real technological advantage here and there and i think he and i'm employed by tropical villa vacations and when i first started i started actually as a property manager so i helped take care of some of the homes and  condominiums privately owned residences that the company manages and it was a great learning experience and then from there i went to being a concierge i've been in that visitor industry for twenty five plus years i no i  not that but but but it was it's a great learning experience and from concierge i went to this position that i hold with room reservations and so with short term rentals you think oh it's just a family in a property and they're not going to do anything but just stay there and go to the beach well wrong they utilize our restaurant and i just want to say they had short term rentals you know we talk about diversifying this is different supplying it gives jobs and it gives outearn it is an another avenue for our visitors to come and complaints only because when we take when i take a reservation for a home we screen them and qualify them for the operation so you know these the oh you know i'm so and so you know and  you know we have to say ask them ok who are you how many are in your party and they have to fill out a rental agreement and that rental agreement is the binding and it goes strictly say you know if it's a three bedroom home then the maximum occupancy is six per oh that's just how it is and if the single i have seven well i'm really sorry i can't help you with this property but maybe i can help you with another property that can accommodate the number of persons you have and we'll try to help them even if i have to point  if if you get a lot of complaints about you know loud noises and parties not really you know i live in my area who call my neighbors are louder especially on game day you know think ok thank you thank you members and yes mispriced thank you very much and thank you for being here this morning i'm trying to get the point of you know we're laughing about game day but i think the point you're trying to make and i have said this over and over is just because you have a long term neighbor doesn't mean you're any better off than waiting last year because that long term neighbor could be with you for twenty thirty years and these folks are usually gone in a few days so i think that's the point  trying to make yes absolutely absolutely thank you very much you're welcome members any other questions that mispricing brought up another one do you know what of the houses and i'm talking only the short term mental houses that you guys rent out how many of them could potentially be used as affordable long term mental affordable  for a short term rental permit and i have two requests today first is our home which as i said is a single family home but it's also one unit to unit residential condominium lot and it's located in apartments zoning and our other condominium owner along with us as made a joint application to permit their house as well as ours for short term rental use and we would prefer to  have our own permit and be subject individually to the rules and regulations surrounding that use so i'm asking today that the council amend the ordinance to allow each of us to apply for our own permit as now because it's won a lot in a legal sense it's one permit but i'm asking that it could be two secondly because there is a permitted short term rental about three hundred twenty feet away we are required to have a public hearing at the planning commission now we have support letters from all of our neighbors and there have been no complaint filed regarding our application and we believe that our application could be adequately reviewed by staff and so we're asking today that the five hundred foot rule requiring a public hearing be deleted in cases where there is no neighborhood objection after the posting of the public notice signage on the street and the sending of letters to all the neighbors now i understand that are all in this question in our application are all tied up in the issue of the need for more workforce housing on the island as a whole but you must know that homes such as ours are not a solution to this problem if for no other reason than we live in it half the time and we couldn't do any sort of longer term lease and given the assessed value of our all it would not be affordable even if we could lease it and there are many homes such as ours along new a llama street in mckenna and i believe it's in the interest of all the citizens of the island for our home to be put to a better use than it is now i mean that it would generate income for service providers like we just heard from and visitor businesses if we had guests in it that want the single family home type of vacation experience as opposed to the hotel type that's be heard i'm a homeowner in maui meadows i've lived here full time for nearly five years and i'm a former board member of the maui meadows neighborhood association so ca i'm here to ask for your support in keeping the short term rental ordinance as it is specifically to keep the cab of five permits from our meadows and to preserve the requirement that short term home rentals be at least five hundred feet apart maui meadows it is a real neighborhood short term home rentals are inherently incompatible with the character of a residential neighborhood the people who live various sides of my property have lived here some for thirty years some for seventeen some for twenty three these are not people who are coming and going to live here the and saw live here a generation to generation there are multigenerational families in the neighborhood as well the proposed changes would have a severe negative impact on people who live here in terms of noisy traffic unforeseen disturbances that are very difficult to deal with because one doesn't know how to tranship not to the local community too i've seen news reports on k i t v from wahoo showing the catastrophic impact of short term home traffic noise safety there were mothers complaining that their kids had no place to play anymore and the changes have happened very quickly in some cases within a year or two third i'd like to point out that the financial benefit to the county is negligible the incremental tax revenue for the five permitted properties in maui meadows is only seventy seven hundred dollars a negligible offset to the potential inconveniences to the residents finally i'd like to refer to the language in the order that says short term home rentals show conforms to the character of the existing neighborhood our neighborhood is not such that short term home rentals have a place and i would urge council members to keep that interest uppermost in their deliberations on this matter thank you that's all  the five hundred foot rule what is your mention the cap to mention the five hundred foot rule what is your position on that five hundred foot rule  i would like that to remain i believe i said that the notion that these properties could get stack is very troubling to me you know you get corridors  of short term home rentals that kind of invites what shall i say spring break in fort lauderdale three hundred sixty five days a year characters some of them absolutely unobjectionable some of them party until all hours of the night i think you're getting to put in my question i wanted to ask if you would near one is already causing you any grief from time to time i i certainly recognize that there are people who can come in short term and live in a way that's respectful to the neighborhood and that and that they comfort that if that's what they're looking for too but it's just that with the door wide open you never know who you've got and you don't know who to make your known to should should that become an issue do you think that it would be helpful if we were maybe to do a little my publicity about where complaints go that would certainly be helpful i think it would also be helpful if there were requirements for wanted to ask you the one that's giving giving you an issue there's no sign on front because the ordinance specifically says there has to be if you are permitted one you have to have a sign with your permit number the manager contact and the planning department contact number so there are requirements in the ordinance so i can't tell you for totally sure whether there were ads or not because you know mowing meadows i believe you if there yourself it's a bit of a labyrinth and we are at the end of a street that is dead end on both ends and to get to where that is you have to go up around a maze and i'm not even salvatore followed by david kelly on morning my name is dorothy i have come today to express to the members a little bit of my feedback regarding trying to apply for a nasty outrage they cation rental permit in two thousand and fourteen we placed our home on a caribbean b it's a vacation rental website shortly after we got an anonymous message saying that we are not allowed to advertise a home on the bottom of the messages said planning committee or planning commission planning office i'm not sure which since we deleted the account i called the planning office and i said hey we just placed our house on air being be allowed to do this and they said we advise you to come in fill out a short term rental home rental application this is the process would be happy to work with you on that and they were very very helpful on the phone they were actually very very helpful when we came in i've been in the planning office i can't even tell you how many times twenty thirty i've talked to the planners have been incredibly helpful and in a very complex application process from the very very beginning i had let them know that we had this probably on air b n b we did remove it once we put in the application once we actually got that kind of anonymous warning that we weren't allowed to advertise we had no other warnings we had no specific warnings to me as an individual or any members of our family we put in the application we sent out they accepted the application and they were viewed the letter notice to neighbors didn't notice the neighbors it's been forty five days none of the neighbors have complained and we got i didn't even get a message actually i saw it on line that our application had been closed when i asked them why our application had been closed they had told me since you told us that when you are on air b n b that's proof of advertising and you are bad now for i'm applying for five years i asked this committee if there is a d friend in individual or family or vacation rental and maybe has received one warning and has tried to comply with the ordinance in applying for an air b n b and maybe a property that's received a lot of warnings a lot of fines the process of applying to vacate for a vacation rental is not known to an average person like me until we actually enter the process once we enter the process we find that the doors closed on us immediately and in a sense then what incentive does that allow for people trying to do the right thing people are now finding out that this is what we need to do to actually apply when now the word in the community is becoming hey guess what we're going to that door i knew before that doors ever open i asked this to the planner and they said correct just to let you know one other thing even if you did get through this forty five day process you would have had to go from that planning commission because there's another vacation rental it's in five hundred feet of you and the planning commission wants to make sure that there is a number of affordable housing the other vacation rental within five hundred feet that's been approved it's in an remodeled house that was built in hundred eighty never a model has a valuation it's sold for five hundred thousand it sits in the affordable housing rental pool it is a long term i tell my house this is not sit in affordable housing and it has never been a long term a valuation in excess of a million dollars and so what i'm asking you is the policy that's in place actually having the desired effects if we are asking citizens who who want to be a case in rental or home or who have vacation rental at their home to come forth and do it legitimately is the policy in place allowing them to do so and use that five hundred foot boundary policy also creating the desired effects that you guys would million dollars the house is far in excess of fads and we actually just remodeled after speaking to the planning commission said we actually just finished an extensive remodel gear to the vacation rental market  have never vacation and long term rented our home ever we the reason we started to do this in the beginning was actually examine elderly parents on the mainland we were travelling a lot to take care of that elderly patient my daughter is away going to school and we want to home and when you go to the mainland or wherever you have to go over the years and when you want to write well it's not a case where we're finding that we do have to be off island more and more to for these reasons and so it becomes a reasonable alternative income affordable rental pool yes i at any point that's correct there are two points i want to make is that if i understand the policy of the planning committee regarding this that they want to make sure that there is an affordable rental pool of house within our community but the approved that does lie within the affordable right to pull and made that if a cation rental and the house that cannot be an affordable rental does not exist is banned from being a vacation rental just because of the five hundred foot limit and so my question to you is is the policy see that you're setting force forth actually having that desired effect or should we be looking at foul u a shand also as part of a number of you mr salvatore thank you so much david is followed by peter davis and mr davis is the last one so far to sign up if anybody else wants to submit testimony and then we'll go to the  will please call the handle them i would appreciate it the problem i have with the process however is that the county insists on sending its certified letters to me so i have for two properties had to go to the post what the what the rules are and who to contact when there's a violation would be make a lot more sense and please send it regular mail and the problem of of the process we have now all over is that  n you know we do have a housing shortage and it would be a logical thing to say that we do not permit properties that should be used for long term rentals and getting home thank you for the opportunity to address you thank you mr dawoud members any questions to the testifier seeing none thank you i did call up peter davis we did get a bunch more but right after mr davis we're going to go to the district office aloha and good morning thank you for the update he testified today my name is peter davis i'm a resident of meadows i was until the first of this year the president of the association there i'm testifying only as an individual today however i'm here to ask for two things today i would ask you to keep in place the cap of five minutes in my meadows and i would ask you to keep in place the restriction of five hundred feet between nice permitted structures i can understand why people and i meadows would like to get a permit to have a short term rental and i want to touch my remarks in terms of when they walk in a chocolate factory if you get a permit for a short term rental house you're getting a golden ticket if you do the math on this just a golden ticket i went online to see what these places are renting for each of the five permanent ones i'm seeing nine thirty five a night nine seventy five a night i had occasion to play golf with one of the gentlemen who has one of these and i asked him how he's doing they don't want to give up full time residency they want to be able to go on vacation or rent the house when they're not using it once again i would like to be able to have a hundred fifty thousand dollars travel budget every year the balance to be is if you give more permits to someone in mind you're giving them a golden ticket to a huge income stream the offsetting effect is the neighbors are having someone who's no longer a neighbor and having a stream of traffic i'm unaware of these five generating much in the way  complaints about noise to me the impact as i drive through the neighborhood in aware of them is there is a build up of cars parked along the street and we have no place to park along the street and we have no curb you know what the streets are like there and anytime someone's parking cars along the street that means that to get around them you have to swerve into oncoming traffic which depending on what's coming down the hill that you can be out of a situation but all in all i don't think noise of the current five is a problem sometimes is but i guess the tradeoff here is do you want to enrich more people who have meadows and really invest some of the golden ticket or you want to listen to the neighbors or say don't destroy your neighborhood don't turn it into a semi hotel district that to me is the question be  short term realms but what goes on is that these places are supposed to be set up and occupied with a certain number of people and it's not supposed to be able to get their cars off the street correct the reality is if someone comes over and rents a house usually it's a large party sometimes it's a connection with a wedding and the other people are staying elsewhere but where they convene is where the house is because that's party and it's party central in the sense that that's where they get together it's not party central terms of you know bands and noise and stuff like that but that's where people congregate ok that's that's why we have the phone numbers on the they're not allowed to do that the people if it's for like you say for a wedding and other people meet or renting somewhere else and they all meet at that house that is one of the restrictions on the short term mental ordinance and it would be helpful if that is happening that that gets reported unfortunately and here's the  that you come up the street and you see all the sudden a lot more cars and you assume there's probably a connection with the house over here but it could be a neighbor over here who's having a gathering you don't know for sure where these cars are attributed to ok and i guess i did have another question you talked about keep the five hundred foot rule are you aware that the five hundred current five hundred foot rule i know a couple people have testified seems like they've got a mistaken belief of what that rule is the rule is if you're if there is one within five hundred feet of the one you're if you're applying for the planning commission it's not that you can't have one it's just that the planning commission has to say wh you know this idea of people coming over and clogging up the street because they're having a get together or a birthday or whatever it is so i didn't know that it's going on everywhere and i don't know how we deal with it you know it essentially people are not supposed to park on the using the reality is we came a testified in favor of a copper mine metals based on the notion and the belief that in terms of what is attractive product we would end up with most of these hundred permits up in our neighborhood and the experience with the b and b ordinance has proven us to be correct in that we have about two thirds of all the b and b s in south america in my metals and that's that's where the attractive housing stock for this type of business exists and that's what we're fighting against we don't want to have this become a semi hotel district and the honda district office ok well we still have a few more so hopefully they'll get their ok members the next person testifies robbie dean followed by katherine clark eight and a licensed b m b owner for the past three years professional real a tear in our community across the aisle you know i look out and i see those of us who are here to testify i see the number of our dedicated now we are representatives paid for by our tax dollars and i just want to say it really is an honor to have a system where those of us who care to take time from our personal life or work day have an opportunity to come and speak and for you to listen so that's i mean when you look at what's happening in syria people without countries all over the world i just have to say that this is an honor thanks for listening my experience my experience as a licensed be n b a owner and operator on a street for the past three years i feel can shed light on who it is that is coming and staying in our residential neighborhoods we're not in a situation where people can drive from the northeast corridor to daytona beach or get out of school in north florida and drive to daytona beach or ga that's not who our tenants are i mean there could be some young people and i say short term rental on erbium be on or chooses to read to a younger profile of a tenant that's certainly possible but people have an investment in their property be a but be owners live on their property the present properties aren't inexpensive no matter given the value of the land no matter where they are on maui relatively speaking in three years nancy and i choose to read our main home on the ocean front on the street about eighteen weeks a year that's all i can get away with convincing her to do because it's our home we have a cottage on the property and we have a permit that allows us to either read the cottage out and be in our home or rent the home out and be in our cottage eight half out of ten times the people who stay there are people my age in their mid sixty's and their children somewhere between late twenty's and early fort and sometimes their grandchildren and what are they there for they don't want to be in a hotel and have three hotel rooms and be essential eating breakfast at twenty five dollars a head they want an environment where they can connect with their family have a memorable now we gather together and ultimately have peace and quiet and not a hotel experience so it's so important that this  he's a really special place and not be only have the opportunity to stay in a commercial situation truly commercial situations is amazing opportunity additionally dollars a year and that's right within their neighborhood they can they can walk to work they don't work want to work in a corporate situation it makes a difference in their life or landscape of stepped up the care we take great pride in what and they do what's required of them if there's an issue and honestly you guys can look at the records police records or fs complaints if there's an issue there's every opportunity for somebody to take the time to speak up and make that known being here this morning it was said earlier and you kind of talked about it a little bit and i'd like to hear a little bit more one of the testifiers that we pay our taxes and that the taxes are really small from this activity something like seven thousand dollars or something what i heard you allude to is that this is not just about tax it a tax benefit to our community you mention hiring somebody to take care of your place dead person just does what housekeeping do you use landscapers caterers or anybody else you know when you're living day to day and working and making a living and mowing and paying your bills you kind of put your want it to be of a quality that's number one safe but number one has people wanting to talk about their you know their experience on maui we've upped the level of our pool care instead of once a week it's twice a week  landscapers arrive the day before the tenants arrive so the mango leaves from the neighbors yards are appalling control make sure we have no whitefly on our phoenix robel ynys the level of care you know for nancy and i at least is what we we want to be competitive with any other resort stay and we want to make it the best we can and to do that and whether it's an electrician  murders we're constantly employing people in our community to provide a level of quality of stay that that i think people expect so this does trickle down much bigger than just being a taxi well actually i cleared you're through that question last gladys every month when we look at the gross revenue of income that we've had i would say a good thirty plus percent of it goes to our putting aside money for our increased county taxes you know of course we don't as a b and b we don't have our our homeowner exemption our assessments are what they are in hama street so there's quite a bit of expense to do it at the level that needs that since then one hundred thirty of the possible four hundred have been granted while there was some fear about whether this ordinance would be successful in effectively regulating misuse i'm very pleased to report that up one hundred thirty permits been only positive impacts and few if any complaints generated about these permit operations i'm even more pleased to report that these permitted rentals have generated millions of dollars in spending and have supported hundreds of maui island jobs in preparation for this meeting we queried some of the permanent short term rental loaners to account for the money they've paid out on maui to support their rental owners were specifically asked not to include any mortgage or insurance expenses even i was shocked to learn that a single s t r owner reported that he had paid six hundred eight thousand dollars economy in a single year and i think he wrote you a letter detailing not another permit holder located two doors away reported over three hundred twenty thousand dollars in monies paid into the economy that is almost a million dollars injected directly into our economy as a result of just short term rental homes other factors for these two homes now we count to receive fifty three thousand and real property tax revenue ten thousand dollars more than i would have received had these properties not been granted a permit and thirty two thousand dollars more and if these properties were homeowner properties the state of hawaii received one hundred sixty five thousand eighty a local management company employing twenty five maui residents received more than three hundred thousand dollars for managing and maintaining these two properties and keep in mind that this is not accounting for the on island spending of the well heeled guests that stay at this type of home the planning commission has expressed regular opposition to granting permits for this use and has written a letter to the council urging a moratorium on issuing more of these permits until such time as maui county corrects its housing shortage it must be noted that since the commission sent this letter to council in march the commission has not granted a single short term mental home permit brought before them that bears repeating of the five short term mental permits that the planning commission has had to task of reviewing this year and have been granted to clarify these are s t r permits not the state special use permit i also had a couple comments to make as an individual what about the fairness home occupation is allowed in the neighborhoods with no change in tax no permit and no neighborhood put this brings more traffic to the neighborhood than a single family s t r would but it's also more about more than facts and figures even though we wish it were true tourism remains our dominant economy when the tourists dwindle so does almost everything else on maui this being the case it's critical to stay abreast of curtain of current trends and even though some people may not like it there is a growing trend towards this style of travel something unique slightly off the beaten path and a more local setting for season six entered the game marriott is looking for residences to rent and destination resorts has changed their name to destination residents so why do many people continue to view our visiting gas as a necessary evil when you travel do you look to moratorium put on this use while we believe there is no evidence that shows that maoris resident housing shortage has been created by or exacerbated by permitted short term rentals i believe that it is important to acknowledge the planning commission is concerned and perhaps address it with some type of council action i would add to that that most of the short term rental permits that have been issued are with  the property values much higher than what would be considered affordable housing or workforce housing in point of fact the average assessed value of the one hundred thirty properties that have been issued a short term rental permit is one point eight million dollars  that's the average some are much higher than that and there are some in the lower category but most of these properties would already have been removed in housing because as you've already heard they are typically used as part time or of their owners and therefore would be unavailable for long term rental use nevertheless the maui vacation rental association shares the expressed concern by the planning commission and we do not want this permitted use to have any impact on maui resident housing we acknowledge that it's possible for someone to purchase a home that's being used as a resident as a residence right now and convert it to a short term rental and we would want to avoid that if we were taking away a home from a resident we do not want to contribute to the right problem but rather be part of the solution therefore we would support a proposal that would send any applications for short term rental permits with properties values less than eight hundred thousand dollars to the planning commission for their review it would then be incumbent upon the applicant to show the planning commission why there should be an exception in his case i think there are times when an exception would be would be appropriate but there may be other times where the planning commission would say no to that the properties that are already typically used as second homes like those street already got a permit traditionally for you know thirty forty years these homes have been used either as second homes or vacation rental homes in many cases they do cluster in certain areas particularly along the shoreline i took a look along the shoreline and found that two million dollars is the lowest land value that you find for an ocean front property so two million dollar land value your starting already a very high amount  d b r a is very grateful to have participated in the review of this ordinance i want to stress that there's no council action in the past four years that has done more to directly help we recover from it way that we want to make sure that they do nothing but provide positive aspects to the community all the concerns that you heard expressed up to this point we have thought about before we do have a telephone contact number in front of each of these we do have quiet hours we do make sure that the number of parking stalls is adequate for all of these properties and most importantly that they're not allowed to be used for any party and that type of thing a applicant before the planning commission when there is another short term rental permit within five hundred feet to go away alternatively i believe that all properties within assessed value under eight hundred thousand dollars should go to the planning commission and that person should know that up front so that so that when they enter into this process they recognize i may have a tough time getting through it but if they have a unique story to tell the planning commission perhaps they'll be able to get through i think that that would address the concern that this use may be exacerbating or contributing to and t and the level of resident mentioned five hundred foot you would like the automatic trigger to the planning commission go away and you don't mean that there is no true reason descended to the planning commission or no we still have the notification process  everyone within five hundred feet and we still have the opportunity for people's objections to trigger a planning commission hearing so if two or more of the immediately adjoining neighbors or the neighbor directly across the street were to show objection or a certain percentage of the people within five hundred feet show objections this would still trigger a planning commission hearing in the person would have to go before the planning  address the concerns that those neighbors have but the automatic trigger that says because someone down the street already got their permit now you have to go and through this kind of uncertain world going tell me what this kind of a burden does that add to this application and i guess if we were to take this five hundred foot thing that would go away or do you think that should stay or comment on that well there are three places in the process where certified letters get sent out first is when application is initially made everyone within five hundred foot is notified by certified mail that an application has been made in addition to that you know there's a sign that's put up in front of  property yes then if a public hearing is triggered and sometimes we already know the public hearing is going to be triggered because there's one within five hundred feet we have to send out a second round of those letters to notify the people of the public hearing now again the public hearing is also notified in the legal section of the newspaper as well so that's a second set of certified then if the permit is ultimately granted then the applicant is required to send out a notice to full five hundred feet but the immediate neighbors and their immediate neighbors to say here's who my manager is and here's the telephone contacts for here everyone and here's the the conditions of the permit that so as as as one of the test fires said the most the biggest annoyance that some people have is i had to go through three times go to the post office to pick up this this information about your rental i really don't care that much but those are the rules and what kind of close to a condominium unit and maybe they have one on either side of them and one in one applicant i'm a i'm aware of had three hundred notices to send out now at six dollars per each of those notices just the postage costs is eight hundred dollars to do that that mailing you know two times at least getting through the process so it does become a very large financial burden doing that noticing thank you very much thank you miss  everyone should be should be notified but if we were to keep the five hundred foot trigger then i think don't do the initial notification just do it for the for the hearing that you know is going to have to happen anyway it just seems redundant and short term metals keeping on the market at that time am i correct in saying that well again we're just saying that someone would have the opportunity to get through the process administratively you know but i want i want to give you some numbers that i got from real property taxes they told me thirty five thousand and ten single family home properties exist on maui ok that is properties that have a house maybe they have a house and a cottage but that's property and that thirty thousand and seven hundred of them that's eighty eight percent have been assessed value of less than a million dollars and that twenty eight thousand two hundred have been assessed value of less than eight hundred thousand that's baby one percent of the of the homes on maui are assessed at less than eight hundred thousand dollars that's where i picked that eight hundred thousand i said all right this twenty percent that's not mel he's resident housing that's  housing if you will and do we need to be protecting that if that's the goal here and the other eighty sent that's down you know below eight hundred thousand ok let's let's have the planning commission as an extra step to protect that doesn't mean those people we were not recommending that those people can't get a permit saying you got to go before the planning commission and show them why giving you a permit is is preface to asking make changes and i'm not against a change i'd like to see a way these numbers are falling and the department can give you i kind of what i would like those because i think the public needs to know that it's a myth or not the fact of the matter  certified mail a right because then you'd have people say that we never got to know that that's a legal issue and i'm sure i'm sure your co counsel would say that's how it has to be ok thank you thank you thank you members any other  and we have for several years now we want to apply for a permit so that we can run our home when we travel we want to fall all we want to do the right thing let me see at the outset that there are many legitimate competing interests on the short term rental issue there's the concern that the supply of long term rentals will be reduced there's also a concern about meeting visitors demands for cost effective hotel alternatives and maintaining a vibrant visitor industry and jobs there's concern from neighbors about possible hassles and problems from rentals for fear that the character of their neighborhood will change and finally there's a legitimate concern for respecting home owner's rights to use their property in a responsible and reasonable way but none of these concerns fully trumps the other the key is a balanced approach a compromise to accommodate all of the various interests and that's exactly what the council did in two thousand and twelve by adopting both strict regulations and restrictive permit quota system allowing a maximum of one hundred permits in south should have a fair share of the quota now the meadows has about ten percent of the homes in south maui so we should have at least ten percent of the quota or at least ten permits you know whether neighborhood on maui has such a most favored nation or most favored neighborhood status there is no justification for this whatsoever number two now the meadows is a very large is very large and can accommodate additional permits our subdivision spans more than three hundred fifteen acres with lots one half acre or larger lots provide plenty of buffer space plus the character of my neighborhood has not changed since the law went into effect i have not seen any problems at all related to short term rentals related to noise parking or other issues and there's been no complaints is that as i understand it against permitted short term rentals a small increase will not impact our neighborhood number three capping creased represents a tiny fraction of the homes in malibu meadows even if the cap went to fifteen that would still only be two point five percent of the homes number or raise the authorized quota of one hundred permits finally it is fair to provide balance in compromise by adjusting the we're talking about very small numbers in a very large neighborhood the needs of everyone concerned can be accommodated with a modest increase and they also have comments about the five hundred foot rule which space equally though i do not believe that it should be an automatic referral if there is an existing short term rentals that it should not be an automatic for all of the planning commission no less or complaints from neighbors thank you very much for your time and i'd be happy to answer any questions th shapiro members any questions to the testifier seeing none thank you thank you ok anybody else for waiting to testify wanting to at  testimony so without objection will enter those into the record as well ok members it's now time for the mid morning break and when we get back at quarter till will take up p c thirteen recess with the planning committee meeting of thursday november fifth please come back to order ok members our first item up today is p c thirteen which is part zoning district comprehensive update just to remind you the committee is in receipt of the following county communication fourteen dash three twelve from the planning director transmitting a proposed bill to update the county zoning provisions relating to park districts also correspondence dated october sixth two thousand and fifteen from the department of corporation counsel transmitting rebuys pose bill entitled the bill for an ordinance establishing chapter nineteen point two seven a maui county code relating to the department come up and speak to the changes i think we went through all the changes and everybody had who had concerns we address them so department can you just give some opening remarks if you don't have a that's fine our only remarks are that we've reviewed the revised proposed bill and it does seem to address all of the comments and concerns and suggestions made at the previous meetings and we support the bill of corporation counsel and their response basically with the latest and greatest version of the revised bill hopefully mr goodman will be making his way back in here this is his bailey wick but i wanted to see if he had any concerns members while we're waiting do you have any concerns we have you had a chance to look it over we put everything in there that everybody had a concern with the big thing was the the more intensive uses become a space special use permit if it's on private property for instance  outdoor recreation which could include on team county special use permit is required when the use occurs on private property and involves firearms both on open land recreation outdoor recreation gun we had talked about further on down we talked about carnivals bazaars affairs for the purpose of the section temporary means no more than thirty days in a one year period everybody was ok with that and i think that's it again back down the special uses we have the rangers gun ranges open  and recreation outdoor recreation and structures greater than thirty five feet in height and when i am old fire all special use permit requirements so given that we we had a chance to for our fore again it would be easier in the park or golf course facilities whether they do that in the agricultural district is totally different so this is only if it was zoned county p k or in this case point two seven and nineteen point six one five maui county code relating to maori central park district and park district incorporating any substandard revisions and the filing of county communication fourteen dash three one two  term mental homes and we also received a summary of comments from the law i'm fine informations and the purpose of this bill is to update the requirements and per minute procedure for short term rental  is december fifth two thousand and fourteen is has the matrix that we've been working on in the back it has the marked up bill and behind it is the matrix ok since then we've gone through quite a bit and okayed a lot of the changes the department wanted to make so what i'd like to do is have the department come in and finish up work i mean let us know where we still need to discuss any comments on that morning's meeting and it really seems that we're down to just a handful of amendments left so i will have no further discussion turn it over to us we can start getting through them hello good morning committee members  i believe the chair just referred to the table that we've been using as we've been going through to mention there's the data matter did they i believe yes the one we will have been a while was working on part of a communication due to december fifth two thousand and fourteen ok i'm happy to update this far next chair it looks like she's working off of updated documents is it possible for us to get copies of the might just have some colors but without the tabs it looks like this you know we we've talked about this we have been talking about this for over a year now on this particular item and as if it might be just a maori issue and it is this item is a maori issue but the show term rental homes oh world wide is not just a maui issue it's not just a state wide issue it's not just a even nationwide issues a worldwide issue people are trying to  have a different type of experience in the tourist industry and we are until we can get diversified we are a tourist based industry so if the this is what the tourist wants we might want to give them a little bit of a sample of that that's my opinion people are concerned about enforcement enforcement is happening in the department can speak to that and i've got a list of things that are happening in certainly in mali metals at this point in to the point where one of the major opponents of this bill has called the department said oh hey all the ads are down you guys are in for him and forcing so that's kind of good  as you heard from several of the people testifiers this add jobs to the community jobs that people wouldn't have otherwise it's not a whole lot in some cases in some cases it's a ton of jobs so and i think the issue about long term rentals was discussed a little bit we can  i both got a little postcard from air b n b says hey you're in hawaii you want to use you want to make some extra income here call us so it's being solicit not knowing that we have some pretty strict legislation on whether or not you could do that so i think we've done a really good job so far this committee i think everybody here was on the committee when those eight hundred eight those eight hundred are one percent and doing the math in my head there's eighty thousand k s and and residences here and condos and single family homes and multifamily homes of any kind so eight hundred out of eighty thousand i believe is one percent mr white is that right so i yes that's one percent of one percent that we have a cap of one percent of all the available for you know homes places for people to live so i think we're not affecting things you know especially long term rentals affordable long term so with that in mind i'd like the planning department now to move move on with the issue of ok from the policy discussion down to the nitty gritty details so we're in the middle of the nitty gritty details yes and that's this chart we've gone through almost the entire chart and sometimes when you do that you go back so we do have just one that we're going to revisit it's on page four renewal ninety days prior to the expiration date as we've talked a little bit more we've realized that putting the shell actually makes at expiration date the ninety days prior that's not correct so the department is going to be writing within ninety days however  permit conditions we're fine with that being out of the bill were originally was when we first crafted the bill and the department will make that adjustment that they would like to see they have renewal within ninety days right in our permit conditions it's about halfway down it's line thirteen thirteen to line thirteen eighteen and this has to do with compliance inspections we have some current very general language about compliance inspections in the code however in talking with our enforcement division they would like to see some more explicit language and that's what's in there specifically we're asking that compliance letting the applicant know that compliance expect students can be conducted prior to granting a renewal or with cars during the permit period and that permit holders are required to allow access for these compliance inspections within an hour of request and letting them know right out that refusal to allow access within an hour could result in a permit revocation and i think we've had enough history now with dealing with these permits that we recognize some of the fine tuning that needs to be done to get better and forstmann and this is just one of those small things that would make a big difference first one has to do and i'll just tell you what it is and then we can decide if you want me to hand out the official language don't leave that up to the chair ok so the first one has to do with initial comments originally when the bill was written in eight i think was written twenty eleven and that adopted in two thousand and twelve originally when it came through the initial permit was for three years the same as a bed and breakfast it kept things simple for us in the industry at the last minute asked that we go to one year so that we could catch anybody that was really creatures who would make it easy not to renew the department agreed we've tried to do kind of outreach people to renew after a year after doing this now for three and a half years we've come to realize it's just as easy and if not better to revoke a permit as opposed to just not renewing it we have no problems with revoking when we see that there's a problem and that's the preferred procedure that we're taking given that we would like to go back so we'd like to go back to the three years for the additional permit we've had some problems with doing the one year it comes about eight nine months right after the permit was first issued we don't always have the information ok next one ok the next one has to do with the five year waiting period when someone has been advertising again i have some written language if you'd like but i will read out th can just so the initial permit duration amendment that's number one what we just talked about so now we're looking at two amendments relating to the five year wait period  the first two or adding in that advertising it on my views can count as evidence of operation something we overlooked in the very beginning the second thing that we're requesting and i believe we talked about this at another meeting but we didn't come to any decision was that except on the island of lanai we'd like to give lanai until the end of next year to be able to come in for permits due to their unique circumstances with both resorts being closed right now  we also clarified next we clarified the language with who gets the five year actually hang on a second let's let's go with the first two ok thank you advertising you know evidence very familiar with what we're terming ghost websites or front of websites and we've had a handful of people we've worked with to determine that yes those were older you know before they bought the property or whatever the circumstances may be there's a big difference between being able to use advertising of evidence of operation and perhaps that's not strong evidence because it's a ghost website and actually operating right so what we're hearing is people will say oh i took down my ad but there's this phantom site you know that shouldn't count they're still operating they're not denying that they are operating but we agree that they took down their ad and maybe there's a phantom site still there but they're still operating it's the operation that results in the ban not because there's this lingering website it's the ad can be used as evidence that they are operating or operating so in the ones where we've successfully move forward with applicants not only was it a phantom website from previous years they haven't been operating at all so we're able to issue the permit what if they say oh i had trouble getting this website taken down all the way they're still operating they're not supposed to be operating without a permit to dish gentleman from what are you saying he was still operating because  continues to operate i don't believe he's taking your reservations but he's he was and continues to be at least part time operating but we're not going to just go along this direction if i that not be very similar to my because there is only one i think now i think and actually i spoke with a gentleman during the break that is something for for the agree with district reno's comment about more i don't feel that we should be i agree with the department's recommendation to include advertising and online reviews i can see but you know there's a lot of folks out there that will tell the department whatever the hell they feel like right away in them and i'm not suggesting that anyone has done that yet but i think it's i very long time since two thousand and seven and the picture that we had in mind of course was we wanted somebody who would be able to go to a situation where there was a complaint to where there was an alleged violation and deal with it on a case by case basis and i think we want to give the department as much latitude as we can to work with individuals and say you know you're guilty oh no you're not and have people the opportunity to you know explain the situation and i want you to have that ability because i think that when we get the best results the other thing that i want to be sure is before we get off of this subject  tally of all the different components that would allow them to deem a owner a property and eligible they do use that language any other information deemed  members and the other comments mr victory and i'm just going back to the sale of the property i'd like to maybe look at something that can help me to prevent someone like let's say got a problem with the property being able to having that restriction you know that that's one thing if you don't if you think you know you've been the individual or not that and that's ok i think it would maybe be very difficult to say well if you sell it to a family member you can't do it but if you sell to somebody else c e e you can that may be difficult we we have the other way a bit where you if you if you own it in a trust and the trust is and the trust is a trust or an l l c and your common shareholders are members are all other trustees are all other family members then that's allowed when you're getting into ownership transfer issues the person could sell to n l c where they they own a corp you know they own the majority shares of a corporation that is the sole manager of that l l c and they have been able to exercise control over that l l c without having really any relationship to the sea so i think it's going to be very difficult and i think you're right to point out the potential loopholes with that but i think it would be difficult to prevent those loopholes i mean i think you could say the property cannot be used as with with this special type of use within the next five years or you can say well it's only the individual or the entity can't do it for the next five years but to try to prohibit say certain people you can sell it to and they could do it and then other people do you could sell it to and they can't do it it would be potentially problematic i'm just trying to think of fulfilling what you're intending and it would be very difficult to write  i love the language i'm fine with my concern is and is i'm happy to put that in there as well you know with the other justifier they came up and said he went n b he didn't know and then he got notified by the department no you can't do that come in and apply and i'm not sure if that person continued to operate or not but in the case somebody says oh i didn't know ok i'll stop and go through the process the problem is because the department found out about it and gave them a notice of warning that all of a sudden means they're operating i would like to see discuss i would like to discuss if we can change that from a notice of if they get a notice a warning to a notice a violation they actually have to have gotten the notice of warning and ignored it before they get banned for the five years that's my thought and i think this has been very challenging you know the applicants or the the operators who we've been forced against aren't happy with it people in the community who say there's not enough in forstmann you know where we're stuck in the middle and where where where trying to administer the code as it's written today and also trying to follow what we understood the intent to be and if there's advertising and other evidence of operation and we then we send a notice of warning the notice of warning is intended to give them an opportunity to come into compliance  so they would have to stop operating altogether and stop advertising and all of that frankly people just won't do that with this sort of thing they have reservation as for months now they're not going it's it would be difficult for them and i understand that difficult for them to stop and cancel reservations that they have for as long as it's going to take them to get their permit and then also it's hard for us to really know whether or not they've stopped operating you know advertising is really the critical thing for us in terms of evidence because we're not going to go stake out a property and see who comes and goes and see if they have a rental car and see if they have suitcases it's hard for us to know that someone is operating you know so we do rely a lot on on ads and online reviews and things like that so if the notice of warning they take down an ad and say stop operating that's hard for us to know  and then issuing a notice a violation that that's a different process in the enforcement part of our code where they have an opportunity to appeal that that goes to the b v a that is heck of a lot of work to go through versus just say if you're operating without a permit you're banned for five years that's very clear that's very simple to administer our understanding w and only two hundred people have chosen to take advantage of that it was intended to be an incentive for people to come in and get their permits or else they could risk getting banned if if they were found out far do you want to go to let people who are now operating in violation of the very generous law that you passed a few years ago how many more chances are they going to get to come into compliance that's the that's one extreme the othe and then they're banned for five years that's i would like to figure out a way in between that we can deal with that mr chair white and then ms by said you know i understand the challenge but i think that if there's people here on maui that don't know that the opportunity cation rental is not legal then they must be living under a rock because this has been an issue that's been front and center for years and we passed the laws three four almost four years ago and it was a huge issue before long before that and there was a whole lot of press that if you're operating a short term rental you need to close it down because it's illegal and then we pass a law to get a permit so i have a really hard time with people come in and say i didn't know a thing so i you know i i think we err on the side of the department's request to help them you know put a lid on the illegal operation but i don't think we're doing that by leaving it wide enough open that we have to get to a violation of when they can keep  operating we don't know about it if i just i think we're making the department's job much more difficult if we if we try to loosen this up a bit i just have a hard time believing people that come in and say i didn't know i need a permit ok so i have a little different take i am hopeful most people are not i believe most people want to do the right thing and yes we have people who take advantage of law as we see it every single day but i think that because we're dealing with the numbers that we're dealing with we're not dealing with thousands of these things my understanding is that we have how many so far this morning we heard some numbers amid under three hundred thirty dead i think that it's ok to kind of look at these things more in depth on a case by case basis and if we are going to give somebody a notice of violation that we give some time to comply and if they can't comply when they don't want to comply and definitely if they see it tough i'm just going to keep updating don't you hammered them but you know i just want to be fair well you have to go and dig the heavy hammer and slam them because they wouldn't listen and only when they had those fines did i think people started to run in not only to you but to other departments to get their good complain so what i'm saying is to cheer up i'm all for giving them the hammer but me be a time certain and make sure the world knows like mr white said you know make sure the world bulls that this is the so i don't know if we want to use the same date or some other day but given everybody that notice that this is it gang you mean you don't comply at that point the it's a violation you shut down for five years or whatever and then i don't mind the hammer hitting them real hard but that's my take on all of this to be finding some kind of compromise because i agree we need to take appropriate action enforcement enforcement enforcement has been there and they're going to our part and it's not always because of the two parter but just the way the laws were set up here we have a chance to have in force ability and you have tried and you are working and it has worked very well from what i understand hearing from outside sources still knowing that it's working i still don't want it's like going fishing when you  period it was it was a fairly generous one that being said there are situations where people are going against code and they're handed notices of warning the whole idea i mean in the enforcement division is to get people into compliance so it's my understanding we hear this in this committee all the time we don't really want to  warning for five years so maybe i'm maybe i'm interpreting that incorrectly so i'd like to hear from the department on what why the difference in philosophy there or my misinterpreting that no you're not well thank you for bringing up that i think if we found the tape from three or so years ago four years ago when you discuss the original bill you had a whole section for temporary permits and for exactly the reason that you're saying is we need to give people a chance to come in if they don't take advantage of this and come in by the end of the year that's it and in fact we've we open up our code books and read this chapter every single day because there's always some little twist some little circumstance ok how does it apply in this particular situation and going through that we actually didn't start imposing that five year ban until earlier this year so it's not as if we started cracking down with that in december of and thirteen it was like another year and a half before we started imposing that because we wanted to work all the kinks out of the different steps people needed to take and whatever notice they got the concern with saying oh you can get a notice of warning and notice a violation before you get the ban that's not an incentive for people to apply they won't apply in till we catch them what's the incentive for them to do that if we say ok you have until you know the end of the year or we're not you have to get a couple of warnings before we're serious oh great well then i don't have to apply until i get a warning and so they could go and go and go and go and go without applying without permits until we catch them and oh i didn't know now why you know ample opportunity for people to come in and at some point and for us you know the time is now maybe for you it's at a later date but at some point you say enough you know  i'm not sure where you you know in other portions of this code you do have people doing something illegally they didn't know or understand your frustration so i'm trying to figure out some sort of compromise here because in other portions of the code you just want to get them in compliance and then we're done and i know you you know we've made the comment is somebody if they're being if they're flouting the law to be you know we want to get we want to nail him so i don't know mr chair white seems like he might if we're just if we catch somebody who most likely already knows or doing something wrong the notion of getting them into compliance might mean that we're going to be it's my understanding and just because this happens to be one small small and it is relatively small area why is that singled out and that's that's our fault i think i think there's one reason a single other than that there's going to benefit you and nobody know it's going to benefit you but in this permit stream you're getting ahead of somebody else might benefit you and instead of somebody else i don't know i know the departments that are really yes situation i guess i have maybe a little bit maybe i have an unfair view of it but i think most of these people know what they're doing and  for myself i have to go ahead i just wanted to comment because there won't be here for the rest of the discussion i just want to share my commissary support the change that department is trying to push forward here today chair and for a department just to know that m doubt we're going to pass anything out today so we'll discuss this at the next meeting on the nineteenth this well somebody else had a comment mister thank you mr chair in terms of the our ability to enforce and bring people into compliance this five year ban in combination with the advertising language is the best tool we have if we base the five year ban on  r having a been issued an n o v then from an important foresman perspective we are making making it very clear we're sending a very clear message don't bother applying for a permit until you get a notice of warning because there will be no consequences that's what it boils down to so folks will know well i really don't need to apply until i get a warning and that sends the message to everyone who does know they need a permit and i and i agree with mr white that's the vast majority of people who are operating they know they need a permit it tells them don't worry about it wait and see what happens maybe you'll get caught maybe you won't and if you do that's ok then you apply for a permit and without the ability to impose this ban then we cannot bring people into compliance and as you said that is our goal bring people into compliance not just the ones we catch ok all the ones out there operating that we haven't caught we want them to come into compliance so the way to get them to do that is to say there will be consequences if you don't come into compliance before we catch you ok so so for one a good hammer to have if somebody is operating and here's this and says oh ok there they're really serious if they stop operating now and then go and apply before getting a notice of warning you guys are good with  or we have reason to believe they are not currently operating if we find evidence that they had been operating in the past going back to the adoption of the ordinance so that's how our far back we we don't do an exhaustive search by any means but if we find online reviews or other things showing that they had been in operation prior then they could be subject to the ban  you have to not be advertising or operating for a certain duration before you apply so if you were at if you're operating in the past and you stopped then you can come in and apply and get a permit how far back does that go it ok well now the christmas season is over so i'm going to stop operating get my permit in and get it back or you know is there is there some duration that the council would like to see that you have to have stopped operating for a certain amount of time before you apply that might be the compromise so if you well really do you want to get their permits for whatever duration you think is reasonable and then forward but i like the idea of look back on something that gives everybody a fair chance i agree we've been generous i want being just a little more generous but i would like to have somewhere along the line a drop dead date this is it you don't comply that if you kind of compared to what's going on at the federal level immigration recently opening up amnesty again so every so often years we we have this amnesty all the illegal immigrants can with the changes or not i'd rather not preclude testimony or if we're going to provide a cleaner copy an updated version ok otherwise i would agree with you yeah we we made it so that you can write i'm just not sure it applies in this case ok with that being said thoughts on this this is going to be a big one this five year ban at the other one is going to be think about the five hundred foot notification automatically going to the planning commission a couple of other ones should be ok but you know that we have to finish off so think about that for the nineteen this and p c twenty six which is the enforcement request just wanted to ask mr a pause real quick before we go how's enforcement going as as we speak today well the band has been very effective  it's going well i mean we still have our challenges with with number of inspectors and keeping inspectors and finding inspectors but we are catching up notice is a violation of the following all of the proactive enforcement that we've done and in issued lots of notices of warning and we're we're getting caught up on the notice is a violation as well excellent have you seen any reduction in advertising  some but not a lot and new new ads come up people really describe the properties and give them different names more and more web sites are now blocking finding them first of all finding that there's changing so those are the guys that really we all i think are very upset at i think i would imagine that the the legitimate owners the permit holders also would be very upset at  people who are just obviously trying to break the law on that chair way just on that issue once again the difference between a after the fact hermit and this situation is situation where people have a huge incentive not to follow the rules because they don't want to pay taxes so as we said before we want to we want to reward the people who are stepping up and know for the permits and going through the process so that's where the in my view the focus needs to be if people are operating without a permit i'm guessing that of course  i'm not as as generous as some of the other members i guess but i would guess ninety ninety five percent of them know that that they should have a permit they're not doing  i because i see that the end of the spectrum that you know generally operating illegally i would agree with i would say the majority or the vast majority of those who operate illegally know that it's illegal but that's not really the question it's knew or should have known you know if you don't happen to see a speed limit sign although you didn't know on november nineteenth come up with your potential solutions or comments on this one and then the five hundred foot direct to the planning commission one for sure and anything else you have questions