case number twenty five thousand nine hundred and sixty nine dollars memphis center for reproductive health at all versus herbert slattery the rd oral argument not to exceed fifteen minutes per side miss campbell you may proceed for the appellants in here on earth may please the court syria camp on behalf of the state of tennessee and take reserve three minutes for about a please in pre term cleveland require actual knowledge we not know keysets interpret that to the contrary and you can contrast the definition of knowledge with the definition of recklessness and the tennessee code to see that recklessness does involve constructive knowledge whereas knowledge of giving defendants understanding of what that term means so that all the legislature didn't need to define it it certainly has here in that definition squarely applied the districts are also faulted and the legislature for not defining the phrase because  already have three boys with her abortion because the sex of the child or would it be because of her being poor or is it because of bo he's heard her statement that i've given you i'm very poor and i don't i already have three boys not wed that would indicate that he she is getting the abortion poor and i'm expecting a boy i think the provider could think that that the primary reason the but for reason for the abortion is that and is that the  reasons play into the decision and that the woman wouldn't have obtained that the abortion for only one of those reasons it was really all of those reasons contributing towards you know the eventual decision and then no one of those reasons would be the bigness opteron is one of them but allocation of the burden of proof is another in the we are the reasonable doubt standard alekhine's the burden the risk of a lack of evidence to the prosecution it's a prosecution's burden to prove actual knowledge and the fact that the timing provisions and there are a number of different provisions all of which are separable the earliest one is heartbeat the latest minus twenty four weeks and there and incremental between that and i think you know our position is that that the district court and did not even if you cannot and something like eighty some percent of women have abortions after the time when normally a heartbeat is able to be detected if something like eighty percent of women can't get a s because a heartbeat has been detected yet they want abortions why isn't that a substantial obstacle to their having worsens what i don't know why we need to find it if if you're correct that there wasn't such a for that to us yes rather so we do you draw that line at fifteen weeks for a couple of reasons the st is that at that point that there is a growing medical consensus that he and i were in child is capable  measured based on the kind that the conduct of women actually and so you know the time provision like this affects not only women who might miss that cutoff that it affects women who will change their you question can the state ever ban abortions that are based on the race gender or potential condition of the fetus your honor that legal question would go to a comes in and says i'm getting abortion because of down's syndrome you're saying that wouldn't that would be big for a doctor there may be instances where our conviction is more likely or less likely knowledge of another person a rd party i forgot of a but my point is you now you're tying it to the particular actor but we've never done that you look at the language of the crime and the language of the crime this exists throughout here because it would require a determination that the legislature intended when x is actually with her why not just certify that question to the tennessee supreme court and get a definitive answer certainly that path is open to this work however the tennessee different reason at that point which was the fetus feeling pain can you address that she should that be she pointed to two doctors on on her side that said the fetus  the related question which is and not on the nd part of what you just said but on the st part which is don't we have to defer or didn't the legislature make finding some fetal pain and don't we have to defer to those findings under control in precedent you know your but no one's been prosecuted no one has been pro if hypothetically the woman who had said that she wants an abortion because of a down syndrome diagnosis and the provider says no i can't do that because of that law are section two hundred and seventeen if the woman then deteriorates into a mental health crisis then hypothetically in that situation we would be saying that the  because of down's syndrome it is because of the mental health situation and it is allowable yes rather that would be our position ok thank you if there are no further questions the state respectfully ask this court to reverse the district court's holdings indicate the primary objection thank you thank you both for your argument and the case