welcome to the westminster town hall forum where for thirty four years we have engaged the public in reflection and dialogue on the key issues of our day from an ethical perspective all forums are free and open to the public and information on upcoming events can be found online at westminster forum dot org my name is tim hart anderson i'm the senior minister here at westminster presbyterian church located on the mall in beautiful downtown minneapolis i'm the moderator of the forum it's my pleasure to introduce today's speaker sister simone campbell is a religious leader attorney and poet with extensive experience in public policy and advocacy for systemic change since two thousand and four she has served as executive director of network a washington based research organization working to shape federal policies that and wealth inequality reform the immigration system and secure access to quality healthcare for all before coming to network she served as executive director of jericho and interfaith public policy organization in california and she founded the community law center which provides family law and probate support to the working poor a member of the sisters of social service she has led three cross country nuns on the bus tours focusing on economic justice comprehensive immigration reform and most recently in voter turnout she's the author of the new book a nun on the bus how all of us can create hope change and community ladies and gentlemen please join me in welcoming to the westminster town hall forum sister simone campbell thank you so much what a treasure and treat to be here in sunny minneapolis i am a native californian so i always find snow to be an adventure but i did i had never really realized how it also goes with cold it's beautiful but chilly today i want to share a bit about what we've learned on our bus trip a bit of history and then a bit of where i think we're being called in our nation and how to respond and then i do look forward to our conversation following it the mystery of nuns on the bus i mean it is pretty funny when you think that sisters got on a bus and drove around the country and that became some thing in the media it's hard for me to imagine that the notoriety that we've achieved and i often joke and say lead a quiet life joined the convent i recommended but what happened and how this all came about was that in  no april of two thousand and twelve my organization network was celebrating forty years of working on capitol hill to make a difference to effect social policy and that fortieth anniversary party on april fourteenth that conversation of about three hundred people who gathered was how do we let people know what we do on capitol hill how do we get our name out there because we were founded by forty seven catholic sisters in one thousand nine hundred seventy two we were working as catholic sisters first and then opened up to welcome others in as members but not too many knew about us well i can tell you you must be very careful what you pray for because what we had were some very small ideas like a google ad because we couldn't afford a print wine or having a member get a member well four days later the vatican answered our prayer and because what happened was the vatican named our little organization that at that moment had nine full time staff our little organization network was named as a bad influence on catholic sisters and we made the vatican nervous and the real reason behind it i think was that we had supported the affordable care act and got fifty nine leaders of catholic sisters communities to stand with us in supporting it and our bishops with some misinformation about what was actually in the bill opposed it now as two thousand and ten but i think the vatican censured some of that goes to that political difference but what we quickly knew was catholic sisters are not about having the attention on themselves my sisters in the leadership conference of women religious had to be be very careful because they are created by rome but network our little organization is a we have no direct connection to rome so they hadn't talked to me before they mentioned us so i felt fairly free in trying to be a moderately sane face in the press to talk about what does it mean to do the work of catholic sisters and w very quickly discovered though was how the question rose up in my prayer how can we use this moment for mission how can we create something new here and what happened when we asked people for help to get ideas is nuns on the bus was born but it was born in a meeting in our office on may fourteenth and it was like pentecost because no one remembers who first said road trip but at the end but at the end of our meeting an hour and a half meeting we were going on the road we were pushing back against the paul ryan budget we were lifting up the works of catholic sisters and we were going in a rapt bus now i had no idea what a rap bus was and i was fairly nervous that it meant some kind of music but but it turned out it was a w r a p bus not it r a p bus and the rap bus is that gorgeous wallpaper for those of you that have seen pictures of it or actually seen the bus it's a vinyl wallpaper but out what i want to share is as a result of that what i have discovered is that people in our nation are hungry hungry for an alternative that brings us together in community we have been living in a society that is growing more and more fearful and frightened of each other of the economy of just about anything we have been living lives of fear and the bus goes everyplace and welcomes everyone we've been on three trips our second trip last year was on immigration reform and i will never forget a man in birmingham alabama in birmingham alabama where i expected there'd be protesters against us on immigration reform we had a standing room only crowd in fact it was so big we had to move out of doors so that everyone could be accommodated luckily it was june in alabama wasn't november in minneapolis but but what we discovered was this man who was probably in this fifty's i got talking with him and he said i can't believe  i cannot believe you came to birmingham i never thought we would be seen and he got tears in his eyes and i realized our hunger as a people to know are not alone to know that we are seen by others and that we are in connection and that fear and polarization has so sealed us up in ourselves that we hunger to be seen by another in that being sealed up we develop a lot of judgments judgments about the other  on this bus trip we were in charleston west virginia and they found out i was from california and one of the men probably in his forty's said to me you want of those hippies i said well no i don't think so i'm a catholic sister but i don't think i want to have i thought everybody in california was i had been and what i realized was that we don't see each other beyond stereotypes that we only see other in these labels then someone in the charleston groups you know one of the things about the draft during world war two hard is that woods is that we folks from west virginia got a different experience we got an experience of folks from all over the country when we were in the military now while the military was hard he said it gave us an understanding of each other that i think maybe we've lost whoa that for me underscored that the stereotypes and the expectations that we have of each other seal us away from knowing the truth and finally let me tell you about a man in louvel i practice to say that right vol he was at a food pantry was probably in his mid to late seventy's he was there to get him his some food for himself and his wife they're on social supplemental security income i and get food stamps but they needed a little extra help this month and as he's sitting there he said to me we were talking about how hard it was for him he and his wife and the kids had moved away and they had they were the only ones they have and then he said you know it's tough it's tough sometimes i wonder how are going to make it but thank heavens for shively which was the food bank we were at and the food bank then was about to give him the food that he needed and i asked him are you going to vote he says oh yeah yeah i always vote always for well i was really grateful for that and then and then he added i always vote straight republican straight republican and i thought the world all those programs that you're using to survive they have the policy of opposing so i said i'm trying to be ever thought for i said oh could you tell me why is that why are you voting straight republican and he said mitch understands me micha understands me and i realized that the hunger to be understood is bigger than any policy any program anything we have a hunger to know someone else sees us and understands us which then calls me to be a missionary to folks to let them know that i see you i understand you if you explain yourself to me a little bit i'll do my best to get it let me tell you about a few of the people that i've met a few of the people include and who has a master's degree she told me and her husband has a master's degree also but they live in rural new york and they lost their jobs in the recession and when they lost their jobs they lost their house and the best job that they could get she's working  bookstore and he's working in construction that seasonal and they have four kids and it's really hard and they've moved into a two bedroom apartment and they're doing their best she said that living on minimum wage to minimum wage with four kids six of them is almost impossible they have to ask questions like can we afford gas to drive in to the grocery store or should we walk the two and a half miles can we run the  dryer in the winner to dry our clothes or should we be a tent city inside do we have the money to have the kids play a sport or a musical instrument in school do we have the money just to get by it is very hard and it takes a lot of time then i met robin in the white house and robin zero is in her mid twenty's she told me that we were there for a signing the presidential signing of a executive order to raise minimum wage for contract workers and she was all excited because a friend of hers was going to get a raise and she had this core just blue dress on it was a sapphire blue dress and i it looked lovely on her and she was so excited because she'd gotten it at her job where she works full time for minimum wage and she'd pay twenty dollars and forty three cents for it because it was on sale and she had an employee discount she was so excited but you know what after we talked for a while then she said to me you know you wouldn't know this by looking at me but i have to live in a homeless shelter because i can't afford rent in this in this area and i thought how we don't see beyond the surface of the bright blue dress to know the stories that people are carrying and how we need to listen long enough to hear the deeper story let me tell you one more story about margaret margaret i have a picture here in my bible margaret died in two thousand and twelve years here's her picture you can't see it on the radio but margaret she has her wisconsin fourteen t shirt on but she died because she lost her job in the recession and when she lost her job she lost her health care and even though she knew she was likely candidate for colon cancer she couldn't get screening and she ended up dying from colon cancer her sister jeannie brought me her picture when we were on our first bus trip and i held jeannie entered partner lim and we cried and i carried margaret's picture with me margaret has fueled my commitment that no more margaret should die the affordable care act is a significant step forward it is a significant step towards a community caring for each other but we need medicaid expanded so that all those in margaret's condition who have lost jobs who and can no longer afford their health insurance get coverage it is wrong in the richest nation on earth that margaret's die for lack of health care it is a moral issue it is an issue for the common good it is a pay tree i take issue but you know what i've been a passionate nut about and sure that no more margarets die and doing the best i can but then on this last bus trip i was in lexington kentucky getting ready for a rally and this woman comes up to me put  hand on my shoulder and says i just want to thank you for what you've done for my family i'm one of margaret sisters and you've brought healing to my family thank you and  i just got tears in my eyes i get tears in my eyes now thinking about it because it was such a surprise and nancy just walked away when i ran after because i had to give her a hug and what i discovered was that my having heard margaret's story from their other sister jean then lead me to lift up margaret but my lifting up margaret provided them with healing because they knew margaret's death was not in vain that this senseless death that they felt guilty about that they hadn't been able to help had some meaning for them and then i realized what we hunger for in our nation is this community where my caring about your story provides some healing to you and you provide some nourishment to me and that when we live in a nation of fear shut up we lose hope because  communal virtue hope gives us the sense that we're in this together and margaret story nourished me but it nourished her family so what do we do how do we do this how do we break out of this moment of paralysis and polarization i think we've got some missionary work to do because you all are listening to this today like to create you all as missionaries for the common good missionaries to listen to stories to ask the follow up question too often we're so hungry to tell our own story mirror notice that macomber sation if you're listening to a story but only waiting to get in my point my point did you hear the one about me we've got to have the discipline of inviting the other to tell the there's story so that we are opened up because hearing another story builds a bridge into my heart and then my heart is broken open this requires me not to protect my heart not to have armor around my heart but to make sure that my heart is open broken open because what i've realized is when my heart is closed up and i only have room for about three or four people it's probably not you but if my heart is broken open what i know is there is room for everyone there are no limits at who is welcomed in and having a broken heart also means that i cannot be obsessed by control i can't be obsessed by fear and i cannot be obsessed by thinking it's all about me who are we are called is that in this journey to compassion what the bus is about is to know that we are in this together this is a call to the one hundred percent to be community to create our future because what we know is that if we are not community we're going to lose our democracy the polarization that we're experiencing now is dividing our churches but it's really undermining our democracy we cannot continue as in the unpatriotic lie of individual ism our nation is founded to be community to be the people of compassion for each other and pope francis is wonderful in this that he says that realities are more important than then theories and what we need to do is to hear everyone's reality because if we hear the whole of everyone's reality if my heart is broken open to you and i hear your stories then we can be begin to build peace then we can begin to weep together for the mass we've made of some stuff then we can weep together but in that process what i've discovered is then hope is released into the darkness hope is a communal virtue that you cannot go off by yourself and generate you cannot say i'm going to my room closing my door in generating hope give me a while you can wait a long time what i know is that in this path to compassion caring for others being a part of each other that is when we know hope and so to conclude this part i want to end with one of my poems because it is called compassion path and i wrote it after on our way back from iraq kind of late namedropping on my way back from iraq this happened but we got caught in a sandstorm coming  driving from baghdad to amman in two thousand and two before we invaded and it was terrifying otoh you but the driver of our car it was a big s u v type thing he handed a roll of scotch tape to rick who was sitting in the front passenger seat and said if you see a crack starting to form on the windshield put a piece of scotch tape on it at to try to stop it now i have no idea if that would have worked but i will tell you that all eyes were riveted on that front windshield and it went on for  indeterminable time i don't know how long it was but it was terrifying because we had to keep going on the highway and you couldn't see where you were going exciting and then finally we got to about a ten inch wide band of rain and all of a sudden we were out into desert clear now this is the poem that was given and it is the challenge that we face to find this path to compassion and it goes like this we walk a sandstorm of impotence isolated dread the demons of our day we walk a sandstorm of half trues lies of poker a hand sepia confusion pelt by winds of war we walk a sandstorm of drifting allusive truth wandering ways and blind following we walk a sandstorm eroded by demanding doubt overwhelmed  horrors swirling round invading lungs and lives we walk a sand storm of promised grief aching temptation to hunker down and hide until a more propitious time but in this time of alluring weakness in this time of fearful groaning cold blinded logic anger rising remember the clear eyed anchor of our resolve remember the eyes of my sara rita a sign of a mock boola and many more we may be blinded in the outward journey but remember this inner core may the eyes of a family set fire to our impotence stoke our resolve melt the cold stone of our hearts to yield to tears for like rain tears shed settles sand storms like rain tears shed clear the air like rain tears shed revealed the path so let us weep let us embody healing tears let us be copious tears to settle our country's storm thank you so much you sister simone campbell you're listening to the westminster town hall forum broadcast from westminster presbyterian church on nicollet mall in downtown minneapolis my name is tim howard anderson senior minister of westminster presbyterian church moderator  forum our speaker today is social justice activist sister simone campbell while the ushers collect questions from the end house audience i'd like to invite the radio audience to join us at westminster church for our forum on tuesday november twenty that's tuesday november twenty fifth at noon when public interest attorney brian stevenson will speak on the topic just mercy reforming the criminal justice system our events are always free and open to the public and further information can be found at our website westminster forum dot org and now sister simone if you would return to the puppet i will present the questions from our audience first question has to do with the recent voter turnout i think in i know seventy some years what happened there no one was listening to you and apparently well i think it really is worrisome but it's because let me tell you about one man that i met in  colorado springs were door knocking and the very top a distinguished looking young man probably late twenty's early thirty's told me he was a disabled veteran and i asked him are you going to vote and he goes no  why not we need you he says i don't think anyone wants to hear my opinion no one wants to know what i think and i realized here he put his life on the line for our nation but he feels like no one wants his opinion and i think it's not alienation separation division that is really driving people apart i was just up in duluth minnesota even colder up there old to you and up in duluth i was at st scholastic a college there and a very bold young woman comes to the microphone and says well i hate to tell you this but i didn't vote because it was seem like i just didn't know enough it was so confusing listening to all the ads i didn't know enough and this is where the negative advertising are driving people away because they feel like there is nothing to vote for there's only things to be against and if our youth is being turned off our military veterans feel like their voice doesn't count we are in really serious trouble as a democracy and negin destruction around on a bus was not sufficient to overcome that and that's why we've got to get into community so we're connected to each other so that there is in  all of the money all of the negativity of the for stuff so yes we didn't turn out a whole bunch minnesota he did pretty well considering but we've got a lot of work to do a lot of work to save our democracy you referred to the gentleman who said mitch understands me a bumper sticker using mitch mcconnell's campaign so coal guns freedom what what's that what is that message what's in kentucky that means jobs coal gets identified with jobs the irony is mitch mcconnell's not bring in more coal back because what they've done with coal mining in in kentucky is that they do all this mountaintop removal so they don't need people just need machines and but the image is a fine for cold and i'm for eastern kentucky we went to eastern kentucky and it's really hard to see because they're seeing the degradation of their homes at the same moment they see the loss of the jobs and they haven't put it together people have not made the connection and i think it's also with guns you know this is terrifying because in  what i think that the second amendment allows everyone to carry a musket and that if you that's what our forefathers thought so let's carry a musket and that would make some sense hard to carry a concealed musket but i think i think it has to be in a rallying cry to identity of a rural person who wants to take care of themselves who's afraid of government who's frayed a community who's afraid period and that is a huge worry that a gun gives you freedom when what really gives us freedom is to be connected to be with each other to know somebody has your back that gives us freedom not power or dominance and so i think  the things that tested well with focus groups but doesn't do well for our democracy you're based in washington d c surely you have some allies in the halls of congress can you describe some of those relationships names and names m  this summer senator durbin who's a great ally of ours his people reached out to see if it's ok if you took me to dinner with your suite and then he asked it was ok people senator casey along so we had a we had a wonderful wonderful time and then he took me home it was like being out on a date as a kid it was fine i but but working in policy it is quite possible has been quite possible in the senate to work across the the and we're able to partner in that in real specific ways you have to have really narrow targets of things that work senator elizabeth warren also is working trying to work  one of one of the worrisome pieces is that senator ted cruz has said he is now declaring war on the democrats and he wants to make the senate as nonfunctional as the house of representatives so i think we've got some serious work ahead to say that that is crazy that is not democracy the way we solve problems is by coming together not by being torn apart so while we've got some good connections i think the it's really worrisome for the hundred fourteen congress we have work ahead let's talk about immigration reform a number of questions coming forward about immigration i know that's been an issue close to your organization's work is there a possibility for some comprehensive immigration reform you think in this coming congress know next so you want to the next question now let me talk about it ok president obama is going to do some executive order it won't he cannot fix the problems in our system he can only do some work in executive action around the edges given some stays of deportation the problem with that is that it only lasts as long as the executive wants it to last and any new executive will be able to change it so the immigration community made some of the some in the immigration community i believe in this election made a huge mistake by focusing on the president and losing sight of the fact that it's congress of the problem the senate passed a bill which is a close a ok bill and then the house of representatives we have the votes in the house representatives to pass a similar bill but john boehner refuses to bring it up because he's afraid of the tea party and so what we have to admit is that in the house of representatives who got three parties the democrats the republicans in the tea party and john boehner is trying to be a leader of two of them and that have very different interests the republicans want immigration reform the tea party does not and it's that paralysis that is cuz the demise of our efforts immigration reform one hundred fourteenth congress is worse than the one hundred thirteenth so i really don't expect any significant legislative action will try will keep pushing because our nation is crippled by our broken system our communities are torn apart businesses not doing well even the wall street journal thinks it's a good idea to have comprehensive immigration reform but the fear of some politicians against the tea party is if about the tea party is what's holding this up so i say when jesus said fear not but several questions about your relationship with the vatican and particularly your or not you know we get there right you mentioned francis in your remarks you know have you met the new pope and if you did what would you say to him oh good question no i didn't meet him but i did get it i sent him my book i went with a letter in spanish telling him that i was sending the book to him in gratitude for all that he had done to lift up our spirits the spirit of passion for justice and that i wanted him to just have this little token of one my care but also that he might want to know a bit more about the life of women religious in the united states and then just about when i got back from the bus a week ago i had a response from a mind senior who said that the holy father appreciated receiving the book so i was kind of nice and sent his picture so it's now on my desk to terry so if i if i met the pope what i would really want him to know is that i hold him daily in my prayer that i want to be supportive to him and to the work of the spirit in him and to be grateful for the breath of fresh air and to know my gratitude my profound gratitude for the way he's living the gospel in a very challenging time my church is not noted for rapid change and i know one of the benefits of having a monarchy the style of our governance  monarchies and the benefit of that is that when you have a new minor can make a big difference and that's what we're seeing so i would want to make sure that he knew he had my prayer my support and that i'm deeply profoundly grateful to him for lifting up the needs of everyone the one lying just his saying who am i to judge was so free and  the holy spirit is in the mirror of all of this in my view making mischief making mischief because but for the conflict we wouldn't have all this notoriety and the holy spirit is using the conflict to stir all of us up to be way more public than we've ever been in our lives and and to find out that we have this amazing support as women religious the united states is home leaning and so comforting i can't say that it's not it's painless it's not it's painful it's painful but the fact is that we are in the crate our christian faith teaches us that the journey is through the pain to life and that's exactly where we're being land is from the pain of judgment and misunderstanding righteousness certitude and the temptation is to be calm equally righteous and certain an arrogant and judge mental about them as they are about us but this is where prayer is key prayer is key and where i am drawn is to care for everyone radical acceptance of everyone including those that are judge mental of us because otherwise we become just like them and i've discovered that the fighting in prayer that fighting we often think is fighting is pushing back against you know one fist pushing against the other but where i'm called in prayer is to fight for a vision that's not against anyone but it's for the hundred percent it's for all of us where we are all included even the bishops who say i can't talk on their property because it is about all of us thank the spirit is using the negative critique and this silly criticism to get more people involved can i tell the south that there's a south dakota story and if you're close enough you know south dakota you know and i was leaving no yankton you can yankton south dakota not too many people know yankton south dakota but i was going to speak at mt marti college at yankton south dakota about medicaid expansion this was a year ago and the i got quoted in the front page of the yank zat before i spoke there large circulation for yankton and the bishop of sue falls took some exception to what i said and so he sent a letter to his pr saying these are not endorsing sister simone campbell speech at mt marty college and so that got on the front page of the paper on the day that i was speaking about medicaid expansion and here's the of the spirit is that we had over three hundred fifty people standing room only in yankton south dakota all to hear about medicaid expansion and we got the former lieutenant governor as a good friend of the governor to listen he came and then the next day it was on the front page of the yankton gets a good account of why medicaid expansion makes sense for septa kota but it's the holy spirit that use the criticism because i'm sure if it hadn't been if there hadn't been the conflict might have had twenty thirty people maybe a few nursing students but it was a huge event thanks to the holy spirit so you have to maintain the perspective that all works to the good it's just a little painful in the process that so you confront conflict and resistance in your own tradition within your own tradition of also in the political environment in washington d c you're confronting a congress now that's going to be harder to deal with on with your issues how do you maintain your your spirit and renew your soul in the face of such opposition can i present exhibit a everybody who's here this is where we have to be community to each other because we cannot do this work alone jesus in the gospel did not send anyone out by themselves always sent folks out to buy two or in a gaggle i mean  here accounts of you know women walk into the two men there is a whole bunch of them you get the last supper where everybody everybody and their brother and sister came it appears i mean there's always community in our faith tradition and that's what keeps us going that's why the bus is so nourishing to me is to know real people and to know the importance but the other piece we have to remember is that leadership will come from the people leadership will not come from d c leadership needs to come from us and we the people have got to stand together and claim our democracy work out this huge differences have conversation across the barriers across the polarization find ways to build bridges because we've got to change how we function as a nation so i'm out doing missionary work in with folks like you keeps me going so d c when i get too upset i think own got to get back on the road again go find my people i have to find my people that's what we need we need each other that keeps us gone let's talk about politics and money and i wish i had more of it yes both politics and money one of our question picks up on your metaphor can we affect change in washington without getting this sandstorm of money out of politics good question well one of the interesting things is is that several of the candidates in the november fourth election who had the most money lost so money does not always win but what happens is money is driving people out like the examples that i gave you and so i think we need a constitutional amendment or brain transplant on the supreme court i'm not sure which but  and the challenge i think is that it will take a constitutional amendment and it takes time it takes a long time to do it and my apprehension is that we don't have the guts of the will to do it as a people and that's what we've got to do or find alternatives we've got to provide the leadership that says hey we can come together and make a difference we can change this around money is not the end of the story and so i hope you liked the woman up and it s caustic and understand what's going on in a balance helping folks know that their voices required but we've got to do it not just on election day we've got to do it between now and the next election day build the community so that the community is strong enough to stand up against this foolishness and once it quits being effective driving people out want to quit being affected they'll stop spending their money that way because i what i'm trying to do now is to set up some analysis so we get to the folks so they see that they didn't get their money's worth let's find alternatives that's what we have to do is find alternatives because it takes a long time to get a constitutional amendment we've got to work on it but we've got more to do besides your work grows out of the long tradition of catholic social teaching protestants and other people of other faith have similar kinds of teaching are you finding out lies in other faith communities and can you give some illustrations of your work together oh absolutely i am the co chair when i'm in d c though i do a lot of travelling on the co chair of what's called the heads of washington offices the interfaith gathering of folks from the jewish christian muslim see community we also have a buddhists now joining our group where we were closely on policy issues from an interface perspective in d c there's the washington interfaith staff community where we work on topics together and then i get invited to speak to a whole bunch of different in different faith traditions and then in the jewish temple and spoke at the unitarians big national gathering in providence rhode island and the other group that i want to mention to is labor many of the labor unions are hungry hungry to know that individual ism is not going to really trance or whole nation so that's another place for communities found and i've had the opportunity to speak at a bunch of national labor gatherings but it's this hunger to nowhere in this together and i go any place where people are hungry how do you suggest a faith community might move from learning about social issues which a lot of our faith communities do quite well to advocating for change in social systems this thanks for that question that's a really good question because i think this is where our demick study is lovely but insufficient because our academic study in wakes up our minds but unless your heart's broken you're not going to change your behavior and so what you need to do i think is talk to some folks and hear their stories and you've got a lot of opportunities here in the minneapolis st paul area or all around minnesota to hear stories and let your hearts be broken open  having heard margaret story i cannot not at mccabe from medicaid expansion having heard the story of robin how can i not advocate for good housing policy as well as a raise in the minimum wage i mean all these folks break my heart open and then become it becomes urgent urgent because i know the people that are being affected by this and so i think sometimes within our be touched hear the stories hear stories and you'll be changed that's i think one of the reasons why we avoid hearing the stories it's because it's also a challenge to us to be changed you have a fourth tour for the nuns on the bus were you what's the issue that's going to take the bus on the road next time i don't know stay tuned for the holy spirit i have no idea what what we're looking to do and next year though is what is creating roundtables business roundtable's we did one business roundtable in chicago on the bus that fascinating it was fascinating because i discovered this one hedge fund it was six entrepreneurs one hedge fund guy was lamenting government regulation was too complicated and then once we talked about it we found out well it got complicated because it was simple and then all the businesses hired lobbyists to get their exceptions into the works and then it got really complicated with everybody's exceptions so business started it and then they lament against it so