that this proceeding is being recorded so it would be helpful if you spoke into the microphone so we can get a clear recording and i also wanted to make sure you are aware that you're entitled to do you have presented by counsel at this hearing you understand that i'm all right and you are choosing to represent yourself correct that's correct and  other matter is that i would i'm going to ask you some questions i want to make sure that those answers to questions are under oath so i'm going to begin by having my courtroom deputy administer the  against you and i'm interested to know how you propose to proceed today your honor i'll just if i may just explain first of all a brief  begin with with your background let's start with your education ok well i graduated from an undergrad at u c santa barbara nine hundred ninety six  worked as a paralegal walked and then i went to law school in sacramento of me george school of law graduated believe in two thousand to two thousand and two and i took the bar exam  i trained to practice some areas of immigration for a few months afterwards a business partner of mine agreed to open up our own office in two business partner so since then i've been practicing immigration law primarily our area of expertise  family visa as caning legal residency citizenship and also a good chunk of our cases have to involve representing individuals in immigration  court mostly in san diego but i do represent some clients in and around california as some some of them are out of state so i've been doing that since two thousand and three my as  a court know it's i had i and i applied for admission to the ninth circuit on august nineteenth two thousand and five after i was contacted by a potential client he needed help  thousand and three to sometime in two thousand and six fortunately her mom got cancer her parents live up here and so on the say so she moved up to to be with her sure briefly my my office at the time it was just me and my secretary who pretty much operated as he she ran the office  and she kept track of all the files and all that again well unfortunately for her she also became ill she has lupus and early this year she had to leave my office so i've been shuffling around different secretaries until i finally have found a good and assistant just recently i was a long time client of mine i don't remember the date she actually hired me but it was around two thousand and nine two thousand and ten and she was detained by immigration customs enforce ment and i agreed to help her out with first getting her out of custody and then representing her in immigration court so the immigration proceedings lasted roughly around two years maybe two and a half years there was some discussion about possibly applying for temporary protected status but unfortunately for missed her as a didn't she didn't qualify so we went forward with her immigration hearing the judge denied her applications for relief and we filed the appeal with the board of immigration appeals that was the decision the judge to let me just take a step back and just explain my my dealings with these clients and it also affirms that the immigration judge's decision the clients well they are very concerned about their chances of staying in united states so i agreed to help them out with  research with her case i i found a case that were some individuals were not granted the opportunity to apply for prosecutorial discretion with the government  no your honor and if i may be clear with that as you could tell discretion as far as i know has always been and available mechanism to you know essentially negotiate with the government and depending on the individual's background if they have crimes or family ties in the united states mind you know that's always been around however in two thousand and twelve i believe president o said we're going to let you apply to the government for the exercise of prosecutorial discretion isn't that what the case stands for that's correct so did you apply  did not think it was a way for her to my understanding at the time was that you know after the immigration judge had issued his you his decision and i did not ask for prosecute told discretion at the time with the memorandum to give guidance to the immigration officials nationwide as to which folks should be the target of removal and which and which other folks should not be isn't that what that stands for it that's what exactly what his stance for you if that's the case i don't understand how you could have thought that there was preclusion from seeking prosecutorial prosecutorial discretion especially when you already had seen that the ninth circuit in another case had allowed somebody at a similar stage in the proceedings to request prosecutorial discretion the ninth circuit did not did not order the exercise of prosecutorial discretion  no it simply said we're going to give you an opportunity to ask yes correct correct and you know what even though you knew that you never even to this day have asked the government for the exercise  prosecutorial discretion in a case where you've now submitted of grief that sets out the your i think what you would say is your case about why this person deserves the exercise of prosecutorial discretion have i read this correctly yes your honor just so the court knows this process has retained new counsel and i don't know if he has asked ok i don't know why he would or explain the many many times you failed to comply with court orders were misunderstood clear language in court orders and otherwise burden the court to deal with repetitive futile pointless motions in this case when you could have taken a steps that any reasonable lawyer would take early in th to represent a client do you have any explanation how i could possibly find that the history of the procedure history in this case is that of a let me just go back with a little anecdote i have a colleague in san diego all he does is appellate practice and specifically with immigration and for the longest time i would ask myself how does he to uphold as a member of this bar and a lot that this court was asked the lawyers to understand so i'll be the first to tell you i need to take a step back and i need to really if i'm going to help people in my circuit i need to really educate myself on the practices the rules and regulations and i don't intend to help and you wanted to small meant in and or in the near future but and that's all i could say your honor and these people came to me they were very scared of what might happen to them in the future and i tried to do what i could to preserve their appellate rights but i understand i agree with you i think it's it's clear to me from my experience that some people are more code out by their nature to the trial attorneys are first level attorneys and some other people are by their nature more inclined to be appellate attorneys there's not a whole lot of people who fit into both categories  but this level of representation doesn't work at the court of appeals i mean i can go over your i'm sure painfully aware of every problem you had every time you didn't do something it was pointed out in the order to show  horizon that cause this court to expend scarce judicial resources to handle these matters and ok it's extremely frustrating when we issue an order and then you come back with another motion to reconsider which is not really what you were doing you were filing motions to reinstate and we were already told you what you need to do is file the brief and you come in and say you've paid the sanction that this implicates constitutional issues i mean do you could you make that argument to me here today that that's that there's merit to that your honor i really just wanted to make sure that she had or her opportunity to give the answer is no and the answer is if you want the exercise of prosecutorial discretion you ask the government if they would be willing to exercise pass your discretion and you write the best brief or argument in favor of the equities of your client and say this is why this client fits within the criteria set out in the morton memo and why you shouldn't you shouldn't remove her because she's one of the people that should be allowed to remain in the country and then you wait it's up to the prosecution whether or not they're going to exercise it that's it that's a reality for it that this is a constitutional issue you on this you were you were ordered to pay sanctions of two thousand dollars and you said and many occasions you were moved to reconsider saying you were in the process of paying or made agreement what's the status of the of your payment of th thousand dollars and sanctions has not yet been paid and if it was referred to attorneys the u s attorney's office in san diego and they sent me i told them i couldn't pay two thousand up front you know when the court is a judgment like this for sanctions most people pay the sanctions we don't have to refer for collection to the u s attorney that that also is a burden on the court it's it it's a burden that's because now we're having to follow up on them trying to collect two thousand dollars that they don't want to do because they don't have the resources to do it either so this is a simply multiply and making worse an already bad situation so i urge you to resolve that before that gets more serious ok now you're also ordered to produce all fee agreements you produced one what to locate the other fee agreements we looked in all the files around or i could not find a fee agreement i could not find some of the files we do have a storage facility where we keep older is it your sworn testimony today that you have the agreements in every single one of those cases yes and as i said in our in my response i for most of these individuals i help them out fro maybe thirty percent sometimes fifty percent of that fee up front and make and you know these people don't have a lot of money so i made arrangements with them to pay one hundred dollars a month or two hundred dollars a month until they paid off your balance  the course of the proceedings took less time than their to pay my office instead of writing up a different field agreement to you know handle their appeals whatever necessary feels was was well it was possible i agreed to let them just pay off their amount that the old my office under definition you know the the fee agreement that we already created and not a quote require more money from them is this something that they knew about when they they still haven't paid me i don't know if i'm just a very lenient and reasonable person with them but some of them only paid the initial retainer fee and cost how much for fifty or five hundred how and where is that money come from becomes from the high one of the client doesn't have the money i only during th submission then a month and a half later you filed another motion to reopen and again said petition i submitted payment but still you had not paid fee you don't know why that would be i don't know i just remember exact sound familiar to you that that's that was the case and you lost the money or applied it somewhere else or i remember specifically for this case i hate it myself i don't remember when kerry and you did it was either it was some were late i think late april or early may anyway this was six months or so and more than six months after the petition for review was file now these were cancellation decisions denial of cancellation of removal we were where that there would be a jurisdictional problem in the ninth circuit training review of those decisions i was not aware that time cancellation by the b i and you didn't respond to any of those orders to show cause why didn't you respond i don't have an answer for that for some of these fines i don't remember which one ok so i mean i could ask a lot more questions about this but i'm not sure if it's going to be profitable to do so i think i understand your your position which as i what i'm hearing you say is you really don't didn't feel and don't feel competent to practice and one circuit at this stage in your career my is  in reasonable determination at this point in my career no i just a lot i need to learn so here's the here's what the options are at the stage for me  i can issue an order for citing all this and suspending you for a lengthy period of time which i would imagine would be something on the order of two to three years require you to take a number of continuing education classes as a prerequisite to you seeking to we gain admittance to the ninth circuit that's one option the second option is you can voluntarily resign from the bar of the ninth circuit with charges pending in which case i will not issue an order to show cause  i mean i will not issue a report or recommendation setting out everything in either case however our order will be filed on the california st bar and on the executive office for immigration review both of which have independent internal disciplinary process and they well do whatever they choose to do with respect to your continued practice the i don't see any other option at this stage it's just not in anybody's interest for you to continue practicing with the ninth circuit there's no benefit to the clients when you are as unskilled as you having heard that do you have any reaction you know can i just have you explain again me option i would voluntarily resign well you can submit a written resignation from the bar of the ninth circuit i know what i'm going to do in any event after this hearing is over as i have to prepare a report and recommendation to a panel of three judges i can recommend after setting out all the findings that i would make that you'd be suspended and my sense is that my recommended suspension would be for at least two years with a requirement of continuing education before you could be readmitted to practice in the court followed by a period of probation if you were to be in there to practise in the court so that's option number one that would go to a panel of judges th second option is you could submit your resignation to the bar the ninth circuit i would take that resignation request and recommend that the court accept your resignation from the bar of the ninth circuit with the charges pending and that that determination would be also would be served on the california state bar and the e i or disciplinary unit as would the suspend any suspension order that the court might  so i don't insist upon you making the decision right the second but i don't see any other options  if i may ask what does that mean with the charges pending as i mean that means you had an order to show cause that was in the process of being determine so if they choose to do would have access to the order to show cause to see what the allegations were i don't really know how they handle it it might be that they would look at it as if it were a nolo contendere a plea you know what that is you know would likely be held and then so you would be suspended from the right circuit as opposed to having you resign from the ninth circuit how these other entities would look at it i don't know so when you refer to charge think about this and respond i'm willing to give that to you if you would prefer so to make a decision now and live with that i'm also willing to accept that how much time and i have to think about and what i would or would have to do by next monday you would have to either well by the end of the day monday you would have to submit a resignation or i will simply dean that as being your s if i do you voluntarily resign i don't imagine that i would ever apply for readmittance as a possibility in the future if you were to voluntarily resign you would have to reapply with a showing that you're fit to practice in the ninth circuit and given the fact that you resigned with charges pending we would require you to make a showing that you had for example taken a significant amount of continually the education classes in appellate practice and immigration practice and the interchange of those t but you know i think from what you've told me and my observation this i go back to what i my i said earlier about some lawyers are cut out to be trial lawyers and attention to detail thoughtfulness strategic thinking about lawyers use i mean your your practice as you describe it as a has a high volume quick on your feet practice where you get things done and redress and edits and strategizes and reads a lot of cases and stuff that doesn't sound to me like that's you based upon what i see in the work in front of me understand resignation letter ok and then i will recommend that the court accept your resignation the charges pending ok well i could i think i would be easier if i just i'm going to give you till monday to make that call i'm going to look for a written would be sufficient but i do want you to spend some time for your own well being and peace of mind to try and figure out whether there's any difference in terms of how you'll be treated by the what there is one one matter that we we do need to address before we complete this and that is the status of your one so this brief is now overdue and i believe that there's an indication somewhere in the record they you intended to seek mediation and he soon for the exercise of prosecutorial discretion but i don't think anything has been done as far as i know this is in sort of a state of limbo and what is your well i explain a few i have been your resignation to be effective after the conclusion of that case or you can locate appellate counsel which is what i think should have occurred all along for to represent if if i do if he still wants me to help him with at least asking for this case to be referred to mediation how do i do it do i just addressed that in my letter on necessarily preclude you from at least getting a letter and getting another lawyer to go forward with the mediation in the event then that seems like that's accepted into that he should program ok  i do treat all my clients would you know with one hundred percent gusto and so i i do just want to let the court know i do apologize for you know what custom i think that step number one for you is to be very careful about your relationship with all the courts that you appear because you are your officer of the court you have an obligation to conduct  and make sure that you're assisting the court and it's important duty of ministering justice which it has to rely on lawyers to do that and we need you all right  this we will withhold submission of this matter until monday and you can respond on monday if we don't hear from you by the end of the day monday and tuesday will be preparing a report a recommendation concerning a suspension