good morning everyone the legislative hearing by the subcommittee on fisheries wildlife and oceans will come to order the subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on two bills h r thirty eight forty the atlantic men haden conservation act and h r thirty eight forty one to prohibit the commercial harvesting of atlantic menhaden for reduction purposes in the coastal water in the exclusive economic zone persuasion two committee rule g the chairman and the ranking minority member will make opening statements on fisheries wildlife and oceans meets this morning to hear testimony regarding h r thirty eight forty the atlantic menhaden conservation act and h r thirty eight forty one a bill to prohibit the commercial harvesting of atlantic menhaden for reduction purposes in the coastal waters and the exclusive economic zone or the ease on atlanta menhaden are an ecologically important filter feeding fish that are found along the atlantic coast from maine to florida menhaden play an important role by consuming pyo pipe to a plant can  and serving as prey for other marine fish and wildlife the majority of menhaden are fished with in state waters and processed for use in livestock feed and to extract their oil which is used you know may get three health supplements although the two hundred six two thousand and six stock assessment did not indicate the atlantic menhaden population is overfished localised depletion and poor recruitment are concerns for some fishing and conservation interests the national oceanic and atmospheric administration along with the atlantic states marine fisheries commission are currently conducting numerous research projects investigating such concerns now h r thirty eight forty would establish a moratorium on commercial fishing of atlantic menhaden for reduction purposes as well as prohibits such harvest in the easy similarly h r thirty eight forty one would prohibit reduction fishing of atlantic menhaden in state waters and in the easy so such measures would actively prevent depletion or weakening of this ecologically important species until sufficient scientific data is available to determine an appropriate catch limit given how important these fish are i can certainly understand why the bill's sponsors and others want to do all that we can to ensure th they maintain healthy populations however this subcommittee seeks to avoid legislating fisheries management measures for fisheries already managed by state and federal regulations therefore we look forward today to hearing about the effectiveness of these of those actions that have been taken to date by the states and no one to sustainably manage this important fishery we are also interested in recommendations for further actions that might be warranted to ensure that menhaden continue to provide their wide range of benefits to the marine eco system to the region and to our nation i commend my colleagues congressman wayne gilchrist and congressman jim saxton for their tire ss work in fisheries conservation and look forward to working with them in the remaining months of this congress ospreys as filter feeders and this is the second point that i think is really important as filter feeders menhaden also help maintain a wall of water quality by feeding on plankton  plants just like to pause for a minute and tell you about a personal experience that i had as most members of the subcommittee didn't know and probably some of our visitors don't know i love to be on the water and i'm a i'm a sailor and a few years ago i had my boat anchored on a morning around bay on the severn river and i noticed that my speedometer stopped working and i got a screwdriver and turned some some screws on the back of the speedometer trying to figure out what was wrong not long after that i had to have my boat hauled out of the water for some other maintenance work and i found out that the algae had stopped a little paddle wheel on the bottom my boat from turning and that had never happened before when i sailed in new jersey waters and so i said to the owner of the meat of the  marina why did why did this algae grow on i'm on the bottom of my boat and on the little paddle wheel he said there are so many nutrients and so much growth in this water  that that that's what happens and everything that's in the water becomes covered with this algae which incidentally is the food for menhaden and so if the number of water filters that filter out algae are too few we get too much algae and i i think there are probably several reasons why we have too much watershed probably too much for live here and too much runoff from agricultural purposes but that over the years was kept in check by something and i have a sneaky suspicion it was because of a large population of menhaden also known as water filters and so i just wanted to stop so that everybody understands why i think this is important not only for food for other species of fish which is a natural food but also because of this second subject that i just mentioned the chesapeake bay the biggest asked where in north america is a prime and haydon nursery ground for the whole east coast populations there are at historic lows juvenile fish are especially low key indicator of a dwindling population the chesapeake is also a major spawning ground for striped bass popular with anglers many striped bass in the  are suffering from malnutrition and disease and the declining menhaden population may be a big factor in industrial harvests of menhaden for reduction purposes our primary source of fishing mortality in two thousand and six the denim three of the interstate fishery management plan for atlantic menhaden established a quote precautionary cap however there is no scientific basis to establish whether the level of harvest is sustainable highlighting concerns about the fishery is the fact that the cap on the allowable harvest in the bay has not restrained catches why because even with increased effort the industry has not been able to find enough fish although in his written testimony our industry witness today questions of validity of localised depletion the lack of available fish in the bay has now disappeared displaced effort in fat is now displaced effort into federal waters including off new jersey where there is no management that is in international waters menhaden are a poster fish for why we need to consider the ecosystem as a way of managing our fisheries more research and studies are needed to determine the health of menhaden populations and what let and what level is truly sustainable sustainable catch which will result in a large enough population for menhaden to do their work but the danger signs clearly point to the need for protection measures now for what is often called the most important fish in the sea to thank you again madam chair lady for this hearing today i appreciate it very much and i would like to ask unanimous consent that an article written by frank rich eddy entitled the menhaden bill which is the story of the new jersey effort to management hayden be included as part of the record and i just mentioned a book which many of have read and read include in which is entitled the most important fish in the sea was written by age bruce frankland who is an american cultural historian and not what somebody some people may call an environmental wacko i wouldn't i don't use that term but some people do but mr franklin is a cultural historian who has authored and edited nineteen books on a range of subjects including menha i want to thank the gentleman from new jersey mr saxon who is the author of h r thirty eight forty and now i recognize our ranking member from south carolina mr brown  met here in the chesapeake bay and understand so this will discuss those concerns also understand it manic state marine fishery commission which is manage management authority for this fishery mentor to fishery management plan the late two thousand and congress were to step in and use the same template for other fisheries in the chesapeake bay the people have concerns about we might seize all fishing for blue crabs and oysters and of congress were to hold all fishing for fisheries and federal waters that one int group or another have expressed concern about we might close a majority of health issues including fisheries with the species like blue and white moreland i do not think this is the right way to go to address these concerns if there are concerns about the level of harvest conservative harvest level should be established and i understand they have been if we need more information on the fisheries and effects of fishing in the ecosystem let's create a research program to get answers and understand that has already been and i've worked on or looked at the research these issues for a number of years now and i want to thank all the people in the audience whether you are testifying or whether you are here because you have some interest in this issue for coming to listen to us today and the main function or purpose of this hearing is to gather information in an ongoing understanding of the magnificent rather infinitely complicated ecological structure in which we live so how can we integrate our knowledge our activity with the natural processes of an ecosystem but especially in the chesapeake bay so i just want to put a couple of things on the record omega in this hearing is not a target omega has never been a target of anything as we especially jim and myself have looked at mandate we've looked at it purely from a sense of trying to understand that man hayden is part of a system it's not a special entity unto itself this is also not a witch hunt for anybody or anything we do have some understanding of human activity especially gentrification that means over development along the coastal shorelines of this magnificent bay from many reaches starting up in new york gentrification which is a nice way of saying too much development is clearly not compatible with nature design we see that in sp areas we see that all over the place and the delmarva peninsula has often been described by myself is carpeted with farms and dotted with fishing villages it was much different five hundred years ago when was still a magnificent place but we've held on to the nature and the culture and a tradition for four hundred years we don't want to about we don't want to change that anytime soon what we want to find out though in this hearing is if reduction fishing is combat able or can be compatible with nature designed kenny integrate fishery management plan not just with man hayden but understand the nature of the complexity of the system so th reduction fishing can be compatible with nature's design those little critters right up here can can do their process we're not looking in this hearing for a smoking gun that's that's grossly oversimplification we are looking as what is compatible with production fishing and the health of striped bass how does that work in the prey predator relationship so we want to recognise and help understand how good fishing practices can be compatible with the industry we also want to take a look at in an ongoing way the human health products that come out of omega and they come out of mandate is that the only place you can get those particular whom human health products or can you find them some other place other alternatives we also hear that everything is fine the research is ongoing there's no need for these bills well maybe we'll find out there is no need for these bills but there certainly always need for more research and here's the goal here's what we want to find out in this hearing and over a period of time how can we develop criteria for an ecosystem fishery management plan that is compatible include a lot of things when we take manhattan into consideration can we improve scientific techniques collaborative research projects protect fishing communities protect fishing communities from gentrification we glean some pretty good scientific information about that fish as a filter feeder to take out nitrogen does it take out nitrogen and at what stage of its development when it's a larvae when it's three beginning they're taking out carbon and nitrogen but we know they excrete waste so what is the compatibility of our understanding for the best management practices for fishing management plan with an ecological base  for this fish as it's connected to everything else in the chesapeake bay and really the chesapeake bay is connected to the atlantic ocean and so on so this is a hearing we want to glean objective good information and use objective analysis to move forward and i thank you very much chairman i think the gentleman from maryland mr gilchrist and now i'd like to call on mr whitman to make his opening statements thank you madam chairwoman ranking member brown thank you so much for taking the time this morning to provide the opportunity for this hearing and i appreciate the opportunity to be part of it and as i've mentioned to folks here i think this is an issue that's very important to both myself and to my constituents and you know most people probably never heard of a manhattan but it is vital in our region it's a vital part of our history it's a vital part of our ecology in the livelihood of the chesapeake bay and the larry of virginia called the northern neck which is my home center of this menhaden fishing industry and just to give you a little little history i've worked worked on the water for a number of years in fact the first short period of time actually worked on a man hating boat and it was at that time that i met my wife so i have a particular affinity to the fishery and it's it's it's it's a great great industry in our area and like to go on record as opposing h r thirty eight forty an h r three eighty four and i'm not the only one i would ask unanimous consent to include a letter letters from governor tim kaine and several other local and state officials who also oppose these bills  chairman and i don't think this is the right approach to dealing with the fishery to go ahead and shut it down and you know i've reached out to to both the gentleman from maryland the gentleman from new jersey to share my concerns with these bills and i appreciate their their  consideration and their understanding of the of the complexity of this issue so i am appreciative of their words and looking at all the issues that we have to deal with here i want to talk about a couple of points one is the importance to our region omega protein is the sole commercial menhaden reduction fishery here on the east coast and in our area and employees three hundred folks directly and that's an vitally important part of our economy there are also ancillary jobs people that work with that provide an additional seven hundred jobs in an area of a small population in a rural area where our livelihood is farming fishing and forestry these jobs are extraordinarily important and today i want to point to the audience i know that there are a number of members here throughout the years with the union and great great individuals worked very very hard to make this livelihood is maintained for the area gentlemen i thank you for coming today the menhaden industry in northumberland county is the biggest employer there are twelve thousand eight hundred people in this small county so you can see with over a thousand jobs related to this industry it is vitally important if if we were to shut down this industry it would lead to a major economic impact there it's also an important product  look at men haydon and the products that come from menhaden i'm willing to bet that everybody at some point in their life has come in contact or is used a product that is that is rendered from menhaden and we all know about the omega three fatty acids that are derived from menhaden that are that are taken today by a number of folks to make sure that they create a healthy healthy state for themselves especially with their heart and other bodily body functions of the fish meal and fish oil are contained  animal feed including livestock poultry aquaculture and remember we actually do use these fish to produce other fish just because they're not in the belly of a rock this doesn't mean that they aren't there to help produce seafood in other ways also they're used in premium pet foods anybody that has an animal today that has a healthy animal has one due in a significant way to these omega three fatty acids and they have many other industrial uses we talk about this issue also and we want to make sure that we have a sustainable fishery i agree with my colleagues from marilyn in new jersey and that is the focus here needs to be on making sure that we have a sustainable fishery and if you look at the atlantic states marine fisheries commission scientific stock assessments that are peer reviewed it's clear it says in there the atlantic menhaden populations are healthy and that they're not being overfished and if you look at some of the numbers we need to back off and look at a little bit of the science here and having come from a fisheries management background and schooling in my undergraduate years if you look at the numbers today population fecundity is estimated at one hundred fifty percent of its target if a cunt the ability of these fish through the year classes to reproduce so it's much higher than what the target is in the coastline fishing mortality you heard earlier the coast w fishing mortality is point five and that's the lowest level since one thousand nine hundred fifty five so granted fish are being taken from from the reduction industry but the total fishing mortality is less than it was since one thousand nine hundred fifty five in there have been cycles of abundance of these fish i also want to point out too that the harvest in two thousand and seven was higher than in two thousand and six which is when the discussion began about what should we do in managing menhaden and the projected harvest for two thousand and eight is even higher so if there is a problem with the fishery and you certainly wouldn't see a greater harvest if you look at it from a policy standpoint you heard earlier that we really need to look across the board about how we manage fisheries if we are going to come to the congress each time we feel that a fishery should be managed in a different way especially outside the recommendations of our commissions which this body puts in place to do these to make these decisions especially based on science then i think we're sliding down a slippery slope i know that congressman pallone has a bill in to expand the time that the summer flounder fishery can be recovered that fishery is shown to be stressed i don't think he would be very happy if we came in and said let's just shut  down the the summer flounder fishery i know the economic impact of that has to the state of new jersey so i wanted to make sure we looked at that i wanted to go back to and look at the total efforts being made on this a couple of years ago the state of virginia the state of maryland got together to try to come up with a cooperative effort as to how we could agreed to manage this fishery and the governor's early can governors kaine agreed on that we had a number of other folks recreational fisherman the coastal conservation association the chesapeake bay foundation labor unions all came together to agree to this compromise cap so we've had regional agreement that caps should be put in place as a precaution to make sure that we know how to manage this fishery and make sure that we don't put it in a state of danger and the members offered near unanimous support for the plan so the folks on the commission from all these different states were nearly unanimous there was only one person that voted in abstention everybody else voted in in agreement so there are also currently studies going on addressing a number the concerns of my colleagues spoke about and that is determining the abundance of menhaden in the chesapeake bay looking at recruitment of juvenile men hating that is how many small fish do we have how many actually get to spawning age understanding the predator prey link how what role they play with rock fishing with other fish that are important and to better understand the migration patterns of menhaden and also to evaluate the socioeconomic impact of the fishery in addition to looking at the science about what role do menhaden play in the bay in the food chain and i certainly agree that water quality is an issue i think as important as looking at the menhaden is to make sure that other efforts in the keep the nutrients from grow from going in and it seems to me that the better effort is to keep the nutrients from growth going in rather than relying on a fish to vacuum clean up a lot of the algae there that doesn't have any food value for fish anyway madam chairman i hope that those that those will be part of those issues we part of the discussion today and i appreciate the indulgence of my colleagues and look forward to hearing from our panels i thank the gentleman from virginia mr whitman for his opening statements and now i'd like to introduce the witnesses on the first panel we have with us dr payton robertson director of the chesapeake bay office national oceanic and atmospheric administration and our second witness is captain the executive director of the atlantic states marine fisheries commission i would like to welcome the witnesses and note that the time i mean lights the table will indicate when your time has concluded and we would appreciate your cooperation in complying with the limits that have been sit as we have many witnesses to hear from today we have a second panel be assured that your full written statement will be submitted for the hearing record and i would like to remind you that we will also have votes today so there may be interruptions so i would appreciate your keeping to the five minute limit mr robertson thank you again for being here and you may begin your testimony good morning i'm peyton robertson director of no it's just big day office and my office implements programs and ecosystem science coastal living resources management and environmental literacy to protect and restore the chesapeake bay thank you chairwoman bar dahlia congressman brown members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to testify on know his role in the management conservation and science of atlantic menhaden under the atlantic coastal fisheries cooperative management act no it supports the atlantic states marine fisheries commission and its menhaden management responsibilities now is also the like to provide you with some background on atlantic menhaden the fish you have in front of you there menhaden are members of the herring family one of the most economically and ecologically important families of fish in our region the atlantic menhaden is found in coastal and astern waters from nova scotia to northern florida and menhaden undergo an annual coast wide migration whereby in the summer months younger and smaller fish are found in the chesapeake bay in areas south while the older larger fish are distributed to the north most spawning activity of the species occurs in the winter months off the coast of virginia north carolina and lenox menhaden play an important ecological role in the marine environment as adults menhaden are common in the chesapeake bay swimming in large schools closed the was surface feeding on both phytoplankton and so plankton lenox made in manhattan also serve as pray for blue fish striped bass and weak fish as well as birds like sprays cormorants and great blue herons the many and fishery is one of the most productive fisheries on the atlantic coast a majority the catch is coming from near shore coastal waters atlantis menhaden are caught both for reduction purposes as you've heard meaning rendering for fish meal oils and other industrial products and for bait used in other fisheries currently there is only one active menhaden reduction  be on the east coast and that's in read bill virginia with ten fishing vessels used to catch and deliver product majority the bait fisheries conducted in virginia's portion of the chesapeake bay and in new jersey and there are also landings of menhaden for bait in southern new england and maryland the atlantic menhaden fish remains by weight one of the country's largest fisheries with an average of three hundred ninety million pounds of land in the reduction fishery between two thousand and one and two thousand and six know a fisheries is the primary agency responsible for collecting menhaden fishery dependent data and know it collects and maintains three major data sets the first port sampling data for agent size composition of the catch the second daily records of vessel catches and the third deck logs which enumerate catching fishing location data for individual sets of person nets in two thousand and six a five year cap on the chesapeake bay reduction fishery was adopted by the atlantic states marine fisheries commission in virginia the no fisheries service beaufort laboratories responsible for monitoring this ca said from two thousand and four to two thousand and seven we've allocated approximately five point one million dollars for research on the name in chesapeake bay and this research focuses on the four priorities identified by the atlantic states marine fisheries menhaden technical committee specifically that research focuses on menhaden abundance in chesapeake bay estimates estimates of removal by predators exchange rates of menhaden between chesapeake bay and coastal systems the atlantic ocean and recruitment of menhaden to chesapeake bay through larval studies on this fish my office will present results of these studies to the public and the scientific community through a series of web acts or web in our interactive web based presentations in the coming weeks the first of these sessions is scheduled for may twentieth with the last on june thirteenth each two hour session will provide an opportunity for research collaborators to present the results of the funded activities to the public and the scientific community that is the research results to date on this major enterprise we envision that the sharing of these research results will be particularly instructive to the next meeting of the land a of the atlantic menhaden management board in conclusion no will continue to support the commission and its member states and sustaining atlantic menhaden through an open and transparent fishery management process an important ecological role in the marine environment the most recent stock assessment which know a played a major role in producing indicated this resource is not overfished and overfishing is not occurring we will continue to work cooperatively to maintain this important component of the marine ecosystem at this time i'd be happy to answer any questions you might have thank you i thank you mr robertson for your opening statement and now i recognize captain o'shea and it is a pleasure to welcome you before the subcommittee and you are now recognized to testify for five minutes composed of the fifteen atlantic coastal states working to restore atlantic coastal fisheries through wise and effective conservation and management thank you for the invitation to discuss the status and management of menhaden the species manage by the state through the atlantic coastal fisheries cooperative management act madam chair congressman whitman accurately described the commission's report regarding the status of women hayden as have other witnesses and i will not  repeat that again with regard to the recruitment concerns within the chesapeake bay the two zero zero six assessment noted that they were low based mainly on at the klein in juvenile abundance seen in the virginia and maryland st surveys however evidence of a strong two zero five year class continues to be present in surveys and catch samples scientists tell us that men hayden's born in the ocean and wind driven currents transport water bay into the chesapeake bay and other areas while the role environmental and ocean conditions play in recruitment is not fully known it's clear that the number of spawning fish is not the only factor affecting recruitment the potential for localised depletion of man hayden in the chesapeake bay has received attention in recent years currently we do not have data scientists do not have data or methods to determine if localized the pollution is occurring as d robertson read just testified the commission established for research priorities related to gathering more information to answer this important question in addition the commission is supporting development of a multi species model thing the interaction between atlantic menhaden striped bass blue fish and weak fish the commission's menhaden science scientists use this model in the two zero six assessment to account for the  by predators in response to public concern and as a precautionary measure the commission established a harvest cap on reduction landings from the chesapeake bay in two thousand and six this cap will prevent fanshen of the reduction of harvest in the bay for five year period while the research that i just mentioned is being conducted incidentally since the cap is gone into effect the catch per unit effort of harvest in the chesapeake bay has gone up a good sign and the comments that we had at the opening from congressman whitman reflect his experience in this issue as as a delegate to the virginia legislature he introduced the legislation that led set the foundation for virginia to adopt the captain the commission is very grateful for his efforts in that regard the commission actively tracks the health and status of the menhaden population through regular reports from its science advisers the two thousand and seven fishery management plan review provides details on the status of the stock the fishery monitoring current regulations and is available on our website as for the regarding the food needs of recreational fish species the commission held a workshop in two thousand and four to examine this important issue twenty scientists with expertise in this area potential pated in the workshop there was insufficient evidence to support the hypothesis  striped bass or other recreational fish suffer from the lack of menhaden a sprite the commission published the proceedings of this workshop in a special report number eighty three also available on our website incidentally the most recent striped bass stock assessment indicated that the bio mass is forty two percent over the target reflecting a healthy more than a healthy striped bass stock your letter asked me to comment also on the need for the bills today frankly madam chair we feel they are not needed what is needed is a continuing dialogue based on science to better understand this important fishery h r three eight four zero one three eight one and your hearing today added this dialogue and for that i'm grateful the commission will continue to balance the important ecological and economic benefits of abundant menhaden stocks to coastal waters and communities in our decision making process proposals from congress to impose regulations on the state fisheries raise concerns from the commission's perspective and pinch on the right of the states to manage the natural resources within their jurisdiction the commission asked for your confidence in our process a process that respects state rights and is based on transparency science and cooperation and it has a history of success thank you madam chairman to all the members of your committee for your continued support and encouragement of our commission and our state as we work to restore atlantic stocks i thank you captain o'shea for highlighting the commission's point of view and i will now recognize myself and members for any questions that they may wish to ask the witnesses my first question is do you mr robertson given the various research initiatives of no one in the chesapeake bay what do you think are the important factors to consider when determining the sustainable yield of atlantic menhaden in the chesapeake bay i'm sure when i'll confess to you right up front that i'm not a fisheries biologist but i direct office with a number of staff that have greater expertise than i and i think in answering your question there are a whole range of factors affecting fisheries in chesapeake bay and my only disappointment in the timing of this hearing is that it comes just in advance of a number of sessions we going to host to to share the research that we've been sponsoring over the next several weeks and i think out of that research comes of of work on population dynamics to looking at age structures of the fish in chesapeake bay looking at predator prey relationships looking at the exchange rates between chesapeake bay menhaden in the atlantic coastal style so there's a whole range of factors there could you provide the committee once the results are in we'd be happy to do that we plan to summarize that work from those individual others will testify that the stock assessment does not include consideration of an adequate number of menhaden to perform the ecological service of water filtration yet you stated in your testimony that regarding menhaden ecological role as a prey species and filter feeder we believe the current plan recognizes these important roles so could you please clarify how this important role is incorporated into the plan about some of the research activities that are ongoing looking at the many different aspects of the in a relationship between men and environmental conditions probably those sorts of things we know that and thirty eight forty there is a mention of a number of potential research activities as your research activities go on and the knowledge that you have now and the knowledge that you would taint by these research activities do you see a need for a moratori as is as is requested in h r thirty eight forty congressmen based on the information available to us and we have not taken official position on these bills we don't have sufficient information to believe that the stock assessment which is on the the entire coast wide stocking has not been focused on any sub pop elations warrants closure of the fishery at this time  captain o'shea you had stated earlier testimony that fecundity rather than bio mass is being used to set harvest levels can you tell us a little bit about the differences and what those terms mean and why you use one over the other and do these bills layman's explanation and on the face of it you would like to be able to just count the number estimate the number of fish in the ocean as you get for a particular species as you get more information you then realise that you might be able to determine the number of adult fish in the ocean which would give you a better indicating indicator of what the spawning potential as if you have even a better understanding of the fishery you get an estimate of what the egg production is of the animals in a population so the short version would be if you have a very good understanding of a species you could go to a which is saying how many eggs the animals are producing so it's a very refined estimate of the population reflecting the strong scientific knowledge that the science science have with regard to the second part of the question does the current har by the commission reflect this understanding my answer to that would be certainly yes just one other question you know while the juveniles classes have shown some decline in the chesapeake bay as you've mentioned you also mention a strong two thousand and five year class and since menhaden reproduce at year three does this mean that there will be a large class of spawning fish in the chesapeake bay this year and how will this theory be ground  what the different classes of fish mean as far as the total amount of fish there and what time of year do virginia and maryland do their same surveys which is to collect information on the different classes of fish i'll take the easy  same survey dates i don't know but i could be we'd be happy to get back to you the second question is is when will we see confirmation of the strength of the two zero five year class quite frankly there's a forecast issued by the beaufort lab that's that's anticipating that and in fact there's anecdotal reports of large schools of menhaden up into new england that were seen late last year and are being seen this year  in fact even up on the shore of long island on long island sound just as early as was last week there was a man hayden killed from a school of bluefish that chased a big school of manhattan up into a creek not an unusual situation in general on i think the ranking member mr whitman and i'd like to recognize mr second for any questions you may have before i ask a question let me just i should have done this earlier i'd like to commend mr whitman for his interest in this played on the state level in this subject area as well as what he contemplates doing potentially going forward with other issues related such as the runoff problem that i it why was it felt necessary to establish such a cap groups there were different reasons suggested there was anecdotal information that there might be localised depletion in the bag there was also anecdotal information regarding the plans of cooperation regarding the cap issue and including about twenty three thousand goldfish crackers delivered to our office to reinforce the campaign  of this issue so quite frankly it became politicized misinformation but in my view that was the origin and genesis of the cap and can you tell us  information scientific nature was used to determine what the precautionary cap would be madam chair that's was a difficult issue for us because repeatedly we went back to our science advisors and asked them for information on what the exchange rate was in the chesapeake bay and what we should consider as a cap we asked them about information to quantify the localized the police and quite frankly they didn't have information on that so the opening argument from many of our scientific advisors is they couldn't advise us on what a cap should  be the next fallback position then madam chair was to consider the history of the fishery and to look at what the history had been recent history of the fishery and use that as a proxy or as a guide to set the cap and the logic i think madam chair was that if there was a concern of the fishery expanding then perhaps a cap based on some sort of history should address that concern while at the same time try to meet address the needs of the harvesting industry i'd like to point out the cap was put in for five years on the logic that we were going to embark on the research that dr robertson has indicated to try to get answers to these questions on localised depletion and exchange rates and i would like to add that the commission is it was in my written testimony the commission has gone out to what the catch had been in response to a political problem is that a yes or no there was not a science basis for the caps or so it was based on the historical class two thousand and five it was a bigger class and we also know i believe that the catch in two thousand and five was bigger than it had been one thousand nine hundred nine each year through two thousand and four so in order to provide for a bigger catch based on the historical data is it not true that the year two thousand and five was substituted for the year one hundred ninety nine well that's what would happen if you took the most recent year  yes so the effort was made by those who were putting together the historical information to provide for a larger catch than was originally intended because the using the terminal year changing the date was suggested by virginia and others to reflect more recent data catch data that wasn't available when the original cap was proposed i can't remember exactly how long it was but i think the cap issue was before our commission for about eighteen months from the time it was first raised as an issue to a final decision was made so when the cap was originally proposed to five years that was the only data that was available ok well i thank you for that my time has expired the information that i have is as my question inferred that the data from two thousand and five was used instead of nine hundred ninety nine because it provided for a bigger catch and i just wanted to make sure that that was part of the record and let me just say conclusion that i am very pleased that the scientific community is looking at this issue and for the in a fit of the folks who are involved in the reduction industry who are here today and for the benefit of mr whitman and his constituents i hope with the current level of activity on the other hand if a scientific information shows that it will not i hope that we can take steps to make sure that it does you know one of the things that one of the things that mr gilchrist and i have experienced here over the last couple of dozen years is that when there is a fishery which becomes economically viable as this one obviously has the demand to catch more fish continues to grow we've all experienced that with any number of species and i'm sure that that is the case with this one as a very valuable resource it has been throughout history and we look forward to a management scheme that will ensure that the fishery grows and is kept in help the healthy state i'm looking forward to working with both of you on that for the next eight months and when i get to retire i thank the gentleman from new jersey mr saxon for his questions and now ladies and gentleman we have a series of five votes so we will have to recess unfortunately we will have to recess until eleven forty five because i have a meeting on the senate side that cannot be rescheduled and the votes will take some time so our apologies to all of you and i certainly hope that everybody can be here again for the second round the second panel that we will question at that time so i am sorry the first panel mr gilchrist will be recognized as the first one to to ask questions so the subcommittee now stands in recess until eleven forty five