i think so all right well good evening everyone this in my eight years or so of being involved in local government i don't remember a time when we had either a set up quite like this or two meetings like this and one evening so our apologies in advance for for the folks sitting here with their backs to you but the plan is to move right into a regularly scheduled city council meeting from back there not long normally we'd have these kinds of meetings upstairs but figured we'd have a larger crowd we thought it made sense to do it down here so all that being said try and make the best of the space and the best of the time we have members of the board of public works here with us tonight general manager of course and then nellie as well and members of the board great to have you folks here we've got members of sustainability committee here as well and some in the front row i don't know for any elsewhere as well but you guys in the front row here great and of course members of the public who are interested also with this meeting is being recorded and will be available i assume it's going to be broadcast on public access television but i do know it's also going to be put on the city's version of the  internet site that we're now putting videos on so there we go thank you so it will be available for later review as well as we first of all on the agenda we do have time for public comment and i'm given the time that we've got we will move if anybody would really like to comment now you certainly may but in the regularly scheduled meeting at seven o'clock there's also a time early on in the agenda when people can address council as well so if you'd rather hold off till then and comment that point we'd certainly welcome that as well because at about quarter of or ten to seven this meeting is going to end and we'll get ready for the the one where the voting happens anybody would like to comment right now you should certainly do so or if you want to wait till the seven o'clock meeting that's fine as well ok what do we then move into item two which is community energy plan draft action plans greg will turn to you and maybe to introduce yourself first then right greg robinson the systems city manager let me just make a couple of comments on the turn over to de coster but as you look at your agenda you'll see several things on it first of all we want to review what we had in your packets and that's draft action plans for six items and in particular we have a resolution also when your package and so we want to make sure that that resolution meets with the intent of the discussion here this evening and then also then we want to talk with you about a date or you might feel you're ready to consider that resolution and formally in a regular meeting those are three things we want to accomplish  at the study session you're right we only have about ten minutes here to cover these items so what i'd like to say is back in december when we were around a table in a different format but many of the same faces around the table and we're talking about the guard fourth plan and where we going from here there were a lot of comments i think made a lot of passionate comments b p w members city council members members from the community and i know dave and i walked away that night and we got together soon after that and we said what we'd like to do is try to provide some guidance some framework some structure for moving the elements in the plan forward i know me in particular and maybe not many others but i know me in particular you know looking at that document and trying to pull everything together trying to keep the acronym straight trying to keep everything you know i was having some difficulty and i know dave and others certainly  put that together i think in a nice format when ryan came on board ryan cut in a new city manager he embraced us i think fully and the intent started me i'm starting to put some meat on to this framework and i know others were involved great holcombe in particular the anally and some others so i think it's been put into a nice format here and really i think very helpful in terms of you've been able to look at this is this the right direction for beginning to implement what is in that document and other things that that you've been dealing with certain things have different timelines than other items but i think this gives a very good framework for moving the code grab one of us and we'll give that to you but i want to let you know that if as well and for members up here anyone from the sustainability committee who'd like to talk given that we're in this room and that were videotaping this we would ask that you speak in the microphone so that it does pick up well they cost or thank you thank you mara thank you greg for introducing the topic here tonight and the first item on the agenda relating to action plans and i do want to also say thank you to a number of w taking a look at this appreciate your help city manager cottons help dan's help in you know really putting this together and all that have looked at it you know really appreciate that it is a very big document this community energy plan has a lot of different elements to it they're not necessarily linked together i mean not one is dependent upon the other there's a lot of independent actions that can move forward and deserve their own due diligence and evaluation and careful study  and and look to how to move that move forward on those items and to the goals that were set forth in the community plan i think that's we really hope to start doing tonight is to present these action plans for consideration in the context of the resolution that's also in the packet and to get some feedback from counsel and from the board as to whether we're on the right track here these action plans there are six of them that we have and i have you also see if you look at the  packet of information there's also a blank one in there and the idea of the blank one is that there may be other things that we need to work on as well that will come up and that will put on you know into an action plan format and start working it  idea here was that these action plans would be overseen by a steering committee and you'll see that in the first page of the action plans is a little bit of an introductory paragraph there and i'm going to read some of the highlights and that that these documents that are incorporated are to be seen as a framework for an approach for additional study implementation of the recommendations within the community energy plan there is identified in each of those action plans a lead enabling entity  maybe the city might take the lead on certain aspects it might be the b p w that takes the lead on certain aspects but the idea that there would be a lead enabling energy for each of these it would take these action plans and further develop them with the assistance of possible public public and private entities and review them with a beat up the board in the city council not to over two thousand and twelve so the idea here is you see some meat on the bone in these various action plans but in no means are they fully developed these are it's a framework around how we would move forward we have some possible steps associated with those things and the ideas that we come out of this meeting or come out of some direction from city council on the board and start the work of developing the task forces to really start to flesh this thing out each of these items out and as greg mentioned some of them may not be beyond different timelines than others and they all will involve different types of review the idea is to make some progress over the next three months continue to have reviews with board counsel on the progress and that the steering committee there to also be the work would be overseen by steering committee which would be proposed to be comprised of the city manager and the system the city manager and also myself and dan as a business services director at the board of public works and at least one community as a member at large to be designated by city council and certainly been a lot of assistance on these action plans to date and i appreciate  in in helping to put some of this stuff together so what are the areas that we're looking at if the community which plan had a lot of different suggestions within it recommendations and some of them dealt with energy efficiency on a residential level some of them had to do with how do we use the energy that we're creating as efficiently as possible and you know how can we provide better services to our industrial customers and really enhance their experience  and so there are elements within this community energy plan that really touch on all of those and therefore their action plans that really address the various recommendations that were in the within that study first one that's listed there is dealing with home energy retrofit program that was a recommendation in the guard for study dealing with a program to try to promote home renovations on a fairly large scale and fairly comprehensive  we also have this concept of a district heating program and utilizing waste heat from our generation resources potentially using heat from other sources within the community as well coming up with an integrated system that we can both achieve energy efficiency but also environmental improvement by actually using a waste product rather than creating new energy and so there is a outline of how to move forward on that there's also the concept within the community to plan industrial services full that's called a full service utility bundle you know trying to identify can we put resources strategically at industrial areas where we might be able to provide things like compressed air as well as steam and others in other services that could really give an industry an idea that hey if they locate here in holland you know we have all the services they need just you know locate and will be able to efficiency concept the next item deals with building energy labeling program you've heard of things like lead or energy star coming up with some sort of mechanism that buildings can label and and be  essentially show off their successes in energy efficiency measures that they've achieved and be in provide a benchmark and the idea here is that maybe we would start with buildings that are under our control our government buildings you know see if we can promote this concept with other real estate development large real estate development entities in the community get some partnerships together on that and see if we can start a building labeling program here in the community so there is an action plan with that certainly one that's talked about a lot but not necessarily linked to any of these is this concept of our electric generation program what are we going to do with our existing fleet what are we going to do for our next source of electricity and the b p has been doing a lot of study on you know that next next option in you know our look over the next twenty five thirty years what is going to be you know our next  n look like in terms of electric generation and we've employed a firm h d r to do a sustainable return on investment analysis i'm happy to say that we have data on that which i'm sure has been a long time coming in and i understand there's been frustration with that timeframe but there's been a lot of complex work going on a lot of things that have come up that have thrown some roadblocks at the project in terms of you know new regulations and making sure that we consider the effects on our existing generation from those new regulations and just a lot of complexity that we want to make sure that we do this right that we have it complete and accurate and we do have data in on that now we are internally evaluating that data making sure that there are no holes that things are accurate what we are looking at right now is we're looking at trying to we have not reached out to the rap panel this group that we have this community group that we got together on this process when it began reaching out to that group here and looking for dates around the first week in august to really have called a public unveiling of this but essentially start to have h d r present the results of this study we certainly have a little bit more work to do internally to review it make sure we have everything presented in a way that's going to be you know easy to understand as well as complete and so but we are looking at the first full week of august is the time to have that  community meeting on that item so a lot going on with that as well but that is a specific action plan onto itself because not necessarily tied to building labeling or home and home energy retrofits and it does stand on its own as as an action item and the last thing that you see there is community education and outreach and there have been a lot of groups that have tried to do this on energy topics the board public works had its p twenty one initiative which we brought in a lot of speakers to talk about various projects associated with electric generation but in terms of the community plan itself there's been groups like community and energy advisory group that have gone out and had a lot of meetings within the community to try to talk about the goals of the community plan the idea behind this is to put together some structure to how we are going to go out and have this education take take place  to really kind of drive that as an action plan within the process as well so you see a front page within the packet that deals with them and in a kind of a overview perspective but then behind that front page you'll see things one page are essentially for each of those items when we talk about description of there what we're trying to do with it identifying the enabling entity who is the lead who  support you know what are the enabling mechanisms you'll see that referred to within the community plan there's a lot of things that have been identified such as you know whether that takes policy change or whether that takes funding instruments there are a number of things that are identified for each of the action plans that are going to need to be researched and and developed but we also then start looking at who could be potential on a team or task force associated who would lend support to that kind of process so while we've identified possible one of these this is not a complete list this is certainly intended to be an open process but one where we you know look for expertise both inside our community and potentially at times outside of our community to help move these things forward it does talk about some specific action steps on there but i would say those are drafted in a way that is fairly broad yet the idea would be is we would kick these teams off let them go and put some more meat to the bone on this put some more specificity with regard to those milestones try to put some dates to those and that's the kind of thing that we would try to come back in october with is a little bit more definition to these things but the idea was to put the framework on each of these items in front of the board and coun know staffs thoughts in terms of how we might take this large document with a lot of aspects to it in move forward on all these items and so you know that's what this package you know has tonight and so i just wanted to go through that happy to answer any questions that you have about that particular part of the part of the package tonight questions or discussion j so each one of these six entities will in fact have a team around it to work in those teams could be comprised of city folks folks people large c a g people whoever are best qualified best suited and perhaps want to be involved in some way in that particular task force that's correct and then those individual teams would essentially be under the direction all to mentally a board and council but but you know the steering committee that the concept is the city manager assistant manager myself dan and then at large member of the community would be a steering committee to help you know each of the task force move forward with that breaking write to my other question is i guess i'd like to hear the rationale face it seems like that group should be a little bit more diverse and have just a little bit broader oversight and into the all the different ways that this thing could go and be managed and make sure all the considerations are on the table so i'm sure you've thought about that's why i'm just open to what you think a small well yeah i think you know these plans need to be developed yet and certainly the task force are going to be quite diverse in terms of who's their public private partnerships you know going to have staff members going to have community members involved in that and i think that's where a lot of the the meat going to go into the process the idea is that you know we try to make some progress over a fairly short period of time here to move a lot of that forward and maybe that needs to grow at some point but but to manage sort of keeping the ball rolling on that you're going to be bringing a lot of people together just on the various task force a steering committee you know would have a little bit more control at first anyway over the size of that just so that we can you know move this thing forward in a in a in a timely fashion i don't know greg if you want to add anything you know remember alternately you are the policymakers around this table so a lot of these things you're going to see them there's going to be opportunity for additional public comment beyond what happens within these individual teams you know if you can are and we're just trying to make sure that we're able to move into you know manage these things and oversee them and move quickly if we need to but yet you know i have you as the overall policy looking at these things from the sort of i just it's more of a work team kind of an effort i think you know it's i looked at it in that interesting questions i hadn't quite thought of it that way but it seems to me that the steering committee is almost more administrative level as opposed to a policy level you know a lot of the work is as i understand it is going to be done specifically on the task force area for the specific component that the one of six components and ultimately that's going to funnel its way up to the board and the council for you know review inside approval with whatever it may be true and sort of the five member steering committee is more to make sure that those tasks funnel their way up quickly and that you know the right hand no to the left hand is doing as opposed to being another layer of you know substantial discussion and evaluation more of a conduit role i would say and i respect that i just think that if there is a perception sometimes on the part of the community that some of these decisions are made in a rather small group when you've got the steering committee now being made up of the city and the b p almost exclusively and if there's just i understand there's a plenty of opportunity here so i'm satisfied with the answer i just want to make sure that but that work is going to be done at the task force level and you're going to have a birth group that is focused on that particular task and then reporting up and and organizing with the steering committee because they're going to be taking a look at the six different path forward that are going much when we get to when we get to that yeah i think when we get to the resolution let's take a look at that david well my point goes to the resolution and i would just say that jay that resolution does language does say at least one community members so if it's deemed necessary to expand that group we've got that straight but you don't want to get so large that it becomes dysfunctional when i look at these six things i think there's some tremendous future movement in this area that will make you our city well the idea of a lot of the labeling could somebody maybe speak to us and also if anybody's listening just the concept of why we would put so much emphasis and energy and kind of the publicizing of this work and buildings and homes and what's the real value of that because when i compare that some of the other massive situations here i just wonder where's the where's the meat in that and i can speak to that a little bit because i've been exposed to it over in europe and it becomes it takes time and it becomes a driving force and establishment of the value of the real estate doesn't matter as for mercial industrial or residential because that becomes a key i need to be able to upgrade my building so it is much more efficient and therefore i should be able to get a better price for my building whether it be a rental or they're actually selling its own properties so it becomes a real dr you can actually see the hard numbers as for what so what's occurred so it's it's a good motivator for people to realize that the ultimate value of their building but also the ur encourages people to do those improvements and improved energy efficiency of the building and that also one of the first time i heard that with a guy for a study i thought what in the world is he talking about and about the second or third time finally got through my thinking really shed here it's a mindset change exactly and i think of all actually jay of a lot of these things this is the one i think that's going to impact the best and have the the most long lasting effect on getting a mindset change to renewable energy and conservation so and so forth your every one of these talks of the pocket book but i think this one talks a little bit stiffer and when he talked  things this has to be part of this package like you said it took a little while for me to get it through but once it got there it made a heck of a lot of sense so i mean i'm glad that it's on here more of the bac vision and even willing to step out and identify us as this kind of a community of energy efficient and secondly just recognizing again the community energy advisory group in the sustainability committee for all their work you know they have been a champion for this women many of us for sitting on our hands and i just have for that and i say it for another reason and that is what we are setting out to do is community is a missionary effort and it's an effort that can and able to be a unique community within our country and be a leader and it's going to take it's not it can't be driven by the people around this table and even i'm talking to the choir or you wouldn't be here but we need the higher community to heal a strongly about this people in this room and that  a long term in to great to a great degree and emotional effort and so i think what i want to recognize all these people in the importance are success is going to be driven by the community not by us point thank you let me just mention a couple of things that there could be a perception out there that basically i think people haven't been doing anything on this plan for a number of months and i mean obviously the work that went into putting this series of documents together sort of refutes that in the beginning but there have been a lot of meetings that have related to what you see before you and i i have to believe it's gone through a series of revisions but also there's been a small group that's that's met privately frankly with a number of highly respected local national and even international companies who have gotten wind of the fact that no pun intended that we're looking at looking at at this and they have a very strong interest in at least having a serious discussion with us about potentially being one of those outside entities that that help us with some of the implementation steps and some some ways it would be you know perhaps outsourcing to use another word some of the efforts to entity that that is very good at these efforts and in other ways it could be an organization that partners with either the city directly or the board of public works directly in implementing some of these these matters but this you know we've had a series of meetings with with folks who are interested in at least exploring the potential of being a part of the implementation of this and we thought it was important to have those discussions in concert with some of the other work that's being done before we get too far down the path the third thing is that you know looming kind of around all of this though as  you mentioned dave it's sort of independent at least in some fashion is the whole generation piece and knowing that this summer was going to be a time when we were going to have some substantial reporting back on those issues that seem to make sense to try and wrap some of this together as much as we could so that we're not you know simply sort of divorcing the question of generation from the the question of demand side management all those things come together to bring us to where we're at right now and  you know i'm pleased with that document that's before us and sort of the framework that's set out before us and i think this could could end up serving us well i mean ultimately will want to see more meat on the bones before we you know are ready to put a shovel in the ground or you know insulation in the house but nonetheless you know this this to me seems like a pretty good step in the next direction to really dive in and begin to get at the the method of trying to implement the plan one final thing i'll say on this is that this plan and the process that we've gone through and are going through has attracted other kinds of attention not that we do this for media attention but there's an article out in series of interviews with more local publication this week and next so this is getting at this topic as we've said all along a slightly different perspective than what usually seems to be the one and the usual topic is where does the energy come from and  a good measure if not most of our discussion with this is not so much where comes from but what do we do with it once we have it good other comments discussion on any of the the action items that were laid out here things that should be there but aren't things that you've got questions about don't we quickly then turn to the resolution since we're moving in that direction and then depending upon what kind of time we have you know in theory if our discussions end a little bit earlier we can certainly open it up for back page has a draft resolution i think you know recognized probably the first two thirds of this some of the language is very similar to what the sustainability committee presented in resolutions to you earlier but it really it sets the background for when we get to their force here which is really what i want to focus on here more than in the background to it at this point is i think you're familiar with that and many in the room should be as well when you get to the bottom three sections now therefore be it resolved in the first therefore we state the intent of council here to evaluate work through the community energy plan in an incremental strategic manner looking to achieve the optimum results in the last two secs you know such a general statement of action for you that you're taking a statement of intent at the last two then really plays on what dave explained in some detail to you implementation action those are words that you'll see in those last last to the steering committee kind of goes back to  comments but it's really setting up that format which i hope you see in the community sees action format and you know what i would hope would happen here and i believe ryan cut would feel the same ryan's one likes to keep things moving so i think you would agree with this as well as each one of these teens hopefully they're not going to be sitting back and planning and planning and continue to plan until we get this all right now we're going to move forward but hopefully identifying early on your some things we can address right now here are some things that are going to take more thought so you know and here's our priority list so that we are accomplishing things as we go along and not waiting until we have a set complete plan that may not apply to each one of the six but in general just make a general comment so if there are action items as we move along in the short term that serves to show to accomplish things to make a difference shows that we are action oriented with this approach and it keeps a committee members motivated and we're complicating things while we are also spending time on the longer range things that we just can't handle the short term more thorough study so dave i think that's just a my general summary of what's there now that you that centrally what we wanted to get across in this resolution was that you know intent to work through the plan and then here's how we're going to do it you know here's how  action that that would you know follow that so i think you've covered it very well we anticipate having either the one pager or the six pager attached to the resolution that i would if that's not the plan i would like a know that way when someone pulls up the resolution they kind of have an idea as to what we're talking about right exactly but you know kind of a big believer that when you see the thing you'd like to know exactly what is being referred t are other comments on the specific resolution does that accomplish what we want it to this stage you know as far as a timing for this you know it's when you feel comfortable to bring this resolution up for formal action we're thinking you know we have a regular meeting next wednesday if the discussion goes in that direction you know that's certainly an option for you consider we can be ready on our round if you are as a group ready on your end yes the question i would have is a body object to having an exit plan and i don't think in the sense i'm getting as i look around the table as people like you this is this is good let's do it and i don't see why we would unless there's a strong feeling otherwise why we would wait and not put it on next week  just a little question i have on the last statement there will conclude with designation of primarily staff approved by city council i'm wondering if we might expand that to also include possibly members of that group and or members at large to get more  not filtered through or the perception is filtered through that that steering committee that the reports come back from the individual groups that would be my concern there but as far as the implementation we need a lead person there but i think we probably ought to be defining maybe what that group depending on what the actual plan that may be a bit premature at this time not knowing what those action plans are but  probably have a larger group there to help implement some of these as in the building labeling as in the education so on and so forth and i'd like a little bit broader scope there than what i'm seeing here so that the above implementation statements will conclude with the designation of the primary lead staff and aides called a listing of the involved entities or something like that or  individuals we need a bigger bite i understand we have to have a person take the lead to follow through that's fine but let's also define who's going to help this person that he's not he she is not hanging out there by themselves and getting no support  if we're going for the community involvement support then we should have the community involved in support right from the get go is the idea with the last paragraph to be referring to some of the task force activity or something different y i think the main idea and correct me if i'm wrong on this but the main idea i believe we felt well that's a count that's an accountability section there so that when we have lead staff mentioned here you're going to be going ryan greg you're taking that and you know like the previous resolved we do mention using community input and so forth but maybe that needs to be fleshed out a little more but i think dave the primary emphasis there is accountability and that last one exactly if you go back to the action plans there's under the enabling entity there is a den of acacia at least from what we presented in terms of lead in support and so you know we're looking for you know we're reef reiterating that these statements implementation statements will conclude with the designation of the primary lead staff and so on each one of these action plans so that's the idea is that there's accountability and that you are acknowledging that b p w you're taking the lead on this action land city you're taking the lead on this action plan and identifies the elite staff that associated with that or you couldn't you could go each one of those so there is actually a person that is in trouble of that particular action plan that is leading then that group and with the content of what's already in these one pagers it is showing giving guidance to that lead person as far as what the recommendations are from the the greg the riaa the band the dave gregg holcomb as far as other somewhere is either a paragraph or a sentence or a clause or something that talks about the task force aspect of it it's i read it again we with an eye to base an expression i'm not seeing that necessarily in here explicitly spelled out so the idea that this isn't just you know the five members or so the steering committee plus you know a designated staff person doing this and that's not the intent that anyone is suggesting but perhaps it ought to be spelled out a little more clearly somewhere in the resolution that each one of the six implementation strategies that ultimate development implementation recommendation is going to come from that's real out of the works going to happen in the steering committee sort of did some did some work we'll probably do a bit more work and then we'll facilitate but the real guts of the implementation and the planning is going to happen at this task force level which is going to be a much broader group that's not how it  gender here to make sure that i'm not forgetting something we had laid out for this study session ok so we're going to put on next week's agenda david sorry on the eighteenth it will be in a slightly revised fashion the resolution for adoption and then we can get moving out there not just be clear this is a council action and so is there interest in the council having board follow suit or is this something that you know as far as the you know kicking it off that sufficient with council action to drive this my own preference would be at some point at the board some of the boards interested also passed a similar kind of of one other question i was going to ask but it's not coming to me why don't we do this and we have about twenty five or so minutes if anyone in the audience would care to talk yeah if anyone in the audience would care to discuss this or comment on this would certainly invite that but again for purposes so that folks watching at home or on the internet somewhere can hear us we just asked to come forward maybe sit at one of the chairs and  i'm not a you know citizen a resident of the city how is this going to affect an include the other entities in the community that do use this power think that all right well certainly you know one of the major i guess call one more major than the other but a key action plan within there is that electric generation decisions and our sustainable return on investment and what we do with that generation eleven impact throughout our entire service territory but i think you know the concept here on the community energy plan was to look at our entire footprint but to really drive programs within the city and then that could be a model you know for other communities to take on as well so i think the thought is as we move forward on these action plans within the community they could be things that the other townships may look at and say yeah we want to encourage that same sort of action and that we would be able to provide some assistance and guidance in certainly you know our work itself would stand as a model for them to use so many of the action plans and the focus is with inside the city holland but certainly the generation decision will affect you know our entire service territory and that was one of the questions that was always you know throughout this whole energy planning process that was one of the the was you know what's the boundary of the plan and ultimately we pretty much stuck with the city boundaries you know city spent roughly half the cost of the plan to be spent the other half but ultimately we kind of came down at least initially of having that the boundary sort of being the city proper and you know as they mentioned various pieces of it whether it eventually district heating would have an impact from a cost revenue standpoint to the entirety of the  service area generation questions obviously do as well but some of the things retrofitting which probably is going to be a city function or the labeling thing at least initially probably coming more out of the city side probably more tied toward the city itself as pretty energy efficient some new homes being built are not it's going to take an effort you know with lansing changing some rules and regulations and codes they are building energy zero houses in maine for affordable houses the technology is there and at some point very soon of the state in the community the nation is going to have to start requiring new homes built where you don't want to retrofit them in five years so start talking to state representatives and senators and legislators and tell them hey we got to start doing this now this energy index efficiency for home should be a done deal but can take  i suspect we can also do some of that locally and i think of our for example our smoke detector ordinance and that's not a that's not a state statute but we required as part of a transaction in this city so i suspect we could do help make holland be a leader and a model of energy efficiency conservation and clean renewable energy the legal women voters of the united states has opposed coal power plant construction because of concerns about climate farm investment and to hope that it will include wind energy be above the ten percent requirement in the portfolio that according to the state requirements so  to be forward thinking to include as many citizens in this decision as possible on the task force and on the steering committee to make it truly a community energy plan and i'll leave with you something you probably already meeting others report and i believe might be important to address in the broadest concept of the resolution as it sets a footprint for going forward and that is the desire of holland as a community to be a leader in looking at the reduction of the footprint our community has and in that case in the case that forth put forward a reduction in the greenhouse gases you move forward in this process that's one measurement i'm not sure if that's the only measurement that that's the best one but i think it is important for us to at least put put the effort out there that this is directed towards not just efficiency but also a reduction in in the footprint the other element that i would like to address and just as asked that i don't know if it's appropriate to consider at this time but hopefully you've had some dialogue and by the next meeting you'll have it how is this going to be supported how is this going to be implemented and funded you know with this is a tough time right now i know that the city has gone through some very difficult decisions and for these task teams to work they're going to have to be supported and how are we thinking that this is going to be done and that's the broadest question to say you know is there a need to revise even where some of the forming comes from and is that at all possible through energy you know i don't know i'm just saying that i think that that's going to be a question that people are going to say ok we know that the b b w is raising rates and the rationale behind that however this is an additional cost and how serious are we that needs to be going forward this time thank you i would imagine that the steering committee will talk with us in some ways about that those kinds of questions and that's where perhaps bring in some of the outside expertise could have a not just the expertise but the funding behind the expertise could be helpful in some of the more highly technical kinds of i'm thinking specifically like this tricky thing you know that's going to require a whole bunch of planning and evaluation probably at a greater scale than what some of the other ones would and you know perhaps a few companies that i can think of would be sure interested in being a part of that coming up with a business model for that and showing that that has some long term benefits you know as a way of getting that investment going and you know it's part of the early part of the fleshing out of each of these action plans that's going to important part for each of these tasks taskforce is to consider is you know how do we get the seed money to move some of the stuff forward you know what's the sourcing for that and you know obviously you know we can't have everything  decided exactly here in these action plan concepts statements today but you know if you will see in there that that is some of the early action steps and a lot of those is to start looking at you know developing for example the homeowner you retrofit you know you know looking at financing options in grand assistance programs as one of the first things that's that's identified in there you know each of these is going to need you know a revenue stream to support it and so it's a big part of the process of moving forward good evening my name is susan hurley i'm the michigan policy director for clean water action i'm representing our several thousand members we have here in the holland area my first do you want me to lay out all my questions at once or would you like to in whether or not the public education task force is also really a component of public participation in the decision making and so i know we've heard several comments about that but i would just add all the need to really have a diverse you know public voice in the decision making process so both participation the steering committee as well as participation on the task force so my question is also regarding the intent behind how these six projects in action plans came about because some of them seem rather based on the scale projects some of them were not for instance generation and public education piece and so i feel like some elements of the plan have been forgotten like transportation so i wasn't certain how that element would be included in the work moving forward another question i have kind of builds off what paul was asking and that is about the language in the resolution that says that there the goal is optimum results for the community but that term hasn't been defined in so is it something similar to maximum greenhouse gas reductions for the lowest cost i really think that we need to kind of pull out that optimal results language and then my last question has to do with the interconnection and interplay between the task the subject matter is really of both task forces so for instance district heating is very essential tied to energy generation decisions and so how will those task forces work together as those decisions need to be made in conjunction with each other product is going to be the most cost effective for a district heating solution and therefore being colson coordinated what's happening on electric generation is important but it's not the only source of heat you know there's other currently operating boilers within the community at public institutions or private institutions and you know those all could be sources within it as well so it's not necessarily only tied to electric generation but certainly the amount of heat that electric generation can provide can be a factor in looking at development of a business model for it and how much load we conserve how much demand we conserve and so there is going to have to be coordination there but  you know i think what we've done at least to this point in even thinking about it from the sustainable return on investment standpoint is taken the idea that a certain amount of heat is going to be available and looking at you know what is the potential benefit associated with that from a reduced cost and ability to recover the infrastructure that we would need to build that out and so there's going to have to be some basic assumptions on that in then we're going to have to refine it but there is you know it's there is no doubt it's going to be closely coordinated you'll probably see a lot of the same people on very on that same task force so there will be some overlap i know one individual to my right is going to be on both of those so so i know there's a so i know there's some overlap right there but let's see how did some of the see them get picked for the six you know these were some of the major recommendations they were scale items that really needed to have a large group you know diverse group kind of move the issues forward they are fairly complex i know there are other things within the plan too like in hansing the b p w s energy optimization  program again we have a blank page here at the end and i did that purposely to represent that this is not the only thing that will be working on we want to get the ball rolling on some of these major things and is as more and more time goes by will start rolling in other factors transportation was specifically mentioned that's true there are there are some statements made about that but i think generally there were i don't remember the entirety of the recommendations in area but certainly worth going back and take another look and if we have to involve the macas an entity or others you know that's something we can certainly look at as well optimum results what does that mean you know the the i think if you go back to the resolution there are goals associated with the community plan and that's ensure economic competitiveness provide reliable and affordable energy and protect the environment the greenhouse gas factor is certainly an issue to look at from an environmental standpoint but it's a balanced approach to looking at you know the cost of electricity and also economic competitors are we going to be attractive for business and so when we start looking at putting in a utility bundle in a district or in a industrial park or we start looking at the fact that we're moving this forward and that may be attractive to business to locate here because they want to be part of it you know there are a lot of factors that drive that and i'm not sure it's just as easy as putting you know this number on something or that number it's going to be you know to great to a large extent can be policy driven but it's also going to be something that we're going to have to continually balance  the optimum results i think you know what i took from the the comment is you know having it having a target and people being aware what that target is and it can measure our progress type or type of thing and i think for the groups individual find it unusual that the renewable energy wind project was taken out of the mix just one day before i know they've been going through a review of that for close to two years if not over two years in the very first reports on that best at the very beginning and we've spent over half a million dollars on the project and even though the initial reports two years ago show them as being delayed so now i think we're we're sitting here at the table without a viable wind project or renewable project to focus on so that puts some concerns and then also i have some concerns on the inclusion of district the way in a path to building new fossil fuel generation without really getting the results on the fossil h d r report so it's kind of seems like it's the cart before the horse so i had some concerns in that respect  d i want to kind of reiterate some of the comments that susan made and carol did as well and in making this very much a community decision and i think with having these six laid out projects one being district heating it's it's kind of assuming that we're moving ahead with new generation it doesn't necessarily have to be the case there might be a way to use our is every time we build new generation it pulls from a we could spend on truly renewable energy and energy efficiency and using it to the max because new generation is so expensive it's so volatile now in terms of natural gas it's not necessarily answer because we know what we're up against with fracking and all the other much for having this meeting tonight i don't think there should be any question that ultimately you know if you look at the planets it's largely driven by a least a couple of assumptions one is that there's additional capacity needed and second that that capacity is going to be derived principally from burning something and the question is what the burn you know that and the i would say you know if you're to summarize what the plan was about it's about trying to squeeze as much out of what you possibly can screw squeeze as much out  of of whatever it is you're getting from whatever you're doing so it's make sure buildings are efficient it's making sure that you're using waste heat as best you can and offering integrated services that you know provide services to companies but i mean the plan is chock full of the idea that there's new energy and it's coming principally from traditional means so that shouldn't really come as a surprise to anybody thing and dave if you just would comment briefly on the south this year we have an obligation to meet two percent of our sales from renewable energy we're going to be more than double that in terms of what we have currently under contract we are going to be compliant with the rule this time projected all the way through twenty nineteen  timeframe based upon the contracts that we have for a landfill gas generation and wood fire generation we are very interested in wind as a piece of the portfolio and have been very nice you know we don't want to see projects turn up to not be viable ok as it turns out with this allegan county farm in as janet would know as well the public service because the commission came out and said you know there are some wind projects that are approaching six cents per kilowatt hour out there that's what some of the latest contracts are hour project and you know we think that there are other opportunities for us to bring forward and we continue to bring those to a point where we can bring him for board and council consideration and maybe we'll have something very soon on that we're not turning away from wind entirely but we are believing that this project which would use fifty six million dollars of capital if we did build it when we have a lot of things on the plate from a capital utilization standpoint would be something that we would take the operational developmental risk for that maybe there are other options that are better cost and lower risk options for us to consider and still achieve going beyond the renewable portfolio standard for more than a decade beyond that twenty nineteen and give us something that we can offer to customers that desire to have a piece of their generator their electric supply beyond the ten percent by two thousand and fifteen come from renewable resources by bringing in more renewables we'll have that ability to do that in a cost effective more cost effective manner than if we develop the overall project and the other thing is that you know everything is obvious in retrospect right i mean this wasn't this part of the tower is good to make sure that we are accurately characterizing wind speeds above sixty meters we did a lot of assessment of birds bats and just to make sure that there are going to be any issues from at standpoint we look at trans which are required by state which are required out wildlife assess we don't just do it for fun no that's right you know we we did a lot of assessment of the when data by using national international rep or reputable firm to actually analyze the wind and we did it for the site specific that we would put the wind turbines and the reality is those wind turbines would only achieve about a thirty two percent capacity factor and if you look at the capital cost for is just not a cost effective project there are other projects that are achieving greater than forty percent are expected achieve greater than forty percent so if you look at a land use perspective you know word you want to put this you know put up w turbines you want to put it where the best best wind flow is and so this is what we're turning our attention to it's not turning away from wind we're turning a different direction on wind and we'll let you kind of have the last word on this because then we're going to have t room well to keep it just very brief as i sit and listen there seems to be something implicit on the table that i think would be helpful to make explicit at least i'm glad to hear it seems the feeling among the people around the table that the city energy plan is submitted by the sustainability committee was pretty good and nobody said that in nine months but i think implicitly that's what's being said we're running up a bunch of people to put them on a bus or a bunch of buses to go in lots do lots of things but presumably the direction is clear implement the city energy plan and that would be a welcome report if i'm able to give that to the sustainability committee when it meets next monday some of the comments about you know what are the criteria and so forth and in the city energy plan said in some ways here's a four point holland loading order here is our goal for greenhouse gases and so forth if that implicit in this discussion is that that's the direction we're aiming the busses and it's kind of worth getting out and doing all the work and we look forward to that but i think it would be a good thing to it's not for me to say that that's what you're saying but it seems to be that people are saying we want to go in the direction of the city energy plan and that's not something that's been said yet so if that's what you're saying i encourage you to say it and then just secondly just a quick  comment some talk about leadership and community input and so forth you know we have great capabilities for leadership and d p w and city hall but we're also have people outside of those two institutions who have d d an ability for community leadership and just to remind you that those people are willing to serve as well maybe you get the last word that pulling in the same direction that some simple overall vision statement of where we were headed the means to get there is a whole other question in given the for me it reminds me of the news of the last week or so it's forty years ago i trained as a theoretical physicist we postulated the existence of the higgs bows out ok we we've been very happy that was done we figured it out now it took billions of dollars and thousands of scientists and forty years later to actually figure out how to find the sucker but we knew it was there ok and so i'm look all i meant to say was you