border first thing i'll do is just run down our agenda for tonight two pieces of business in the public part of the meeting the first is a sketch plan review of a request by the green elmendorf for this is a subdivision sketch plan and the first was at three brown strace which is in the world residential sewing district and then the other piece of business several different pieces but there's a boundary line adjustment a condition of use revealed a final site plan review and a final miners of division review this project would repurchase an existing garage for use as a grocery store seventeen thousand six hundred square feet remind everyone that this proceeding will be conducted in an orderly manner consistent with the dear of these rules of procedure you don't need to have anything in front of you because i'll walk you through things as we go through tonight but if you wanted written rules of procedure for reference when you get your coffee you to talk about the interested persons route and participation rules interested persons or those who are under vermont law have the right to appeal an after decision of his own administrator of the d or be interested persons include the applicant or if the applicant does not s or act only those interested persons who have participated in the deer of the proceeding may appeal a decision reaction to that proceeding environmental or pursuing to states that your participation consists of offering through oral or written on when we get public comment of people want to participate to cleese tell us your name so we can get into the record and again that helps determine who participate ok because this is a quasi judicial hearing anyone who intends to speak must be sworn in so what i will do is read the oath and you can ask anyone who wants to persuade you just say i do i hereby swear that the evidence i hear of in the cause under consideration shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth under presentation i have one very very quick question that pertains to this and i want to get an answer or before we get into it but you approved our project i believe may of two thousand and fourteen and in reading the fine print i are subdividing the six acre parcel at three browns trace or one primary reason we cannot get insurance on the barn with it being attached to the house and   and to divide the house from the barn so we've been able to achieve that by by running a line through it keeping i do you know he most of the activities of the barn frontage here that we need to achieve the minimum two hundred feet but for those to walk slow because they are  on this i would just bring to light that because this land has been subdivided more than there is then the creation of four lots and over a ten year period that is now classified as a major subdivision as opposed to a minor subdivision that was originally applied or where is the status of the do it's fairly simple what we're talking about doing here so but it's up to you applicant to make their presentation future and i don't think anybody really has a true understanding or can see in the crystal ball as to where that's going to land there and up but one of the things that i wanted to point out oh man it was mentioned in the staff notes that the application is under the print under the zoning ordinance that is in the character based code but when you go to look at dickinson street at some point in time it's likely you will be looking at the character based call that was involved that was developed and is governed in this area so the character based code for this area is character based train can you treat that down you might know so the character base code for this area maybe that needs to go up a little bit so we can read it is cd for neighborhood district the intent of the district is medium density mix of building types so within within the character base code there's a section called thoroughfares and thoroughfares are what your street types with the street topologies is going to look like for each of these districts within this cold and so in those their affairs have to do with vehicle lanes vehicle parking the relationship of so in the cd for district which is which we are there are two street technology sections there's this neighborhood street topologies section which is which is a section that typically would be used for the residential neighborhoods within this district and then there's a second street type ology section which is called park street next to please attention to here is when you go to think about what you're going to do with two dickinson this is a tool this is part of the tool box when you get into the town for them to consider when they look at that street cross section so you'd be looking at a right away with somewhere between thirty and fifty two feet you'd be looking at a pavement with in this range you'd be looking at dr lane with travel ten to twelve feet will be looking at parking lanes parallel on one side of the street on the commercial side if you chose to do that you would be considering plantar with its and if you notice the alphabetical symbols up here they directly correlate to what's down here in the chart so we just talked about traffic lanes we just the parking  would be the planter with and would be the walkways so when you take into consideration the demand of the dimensional standards that are in this  chart and you apply those to dickinson street next so what i did here if you work in skill that maybe just a little bit i didn't get a really fancy  i just did something on my desk here this afternoon but dickinson street is a three roadway right away forty nine and a half feet if it's within the box of the right away for that park street section that we were looking at pavement with its i just chose twenty feet there is room to go twenty four feet ten foot parking lanes six foot plant eight foot i chose a shared use path rather than a sidewalk i think in the ordinance if you flip back a couple of more pages there's an option for just a sidewalk or a shared use i think this is a good area for shared use have particularly with the school just down the street you may get kids on their bikes you get people walking in so the recommendation for the with a shared use path and eight feet so you can see that within the right away if you chose to go with her king on the commercial side which likely this will end up being the commercial side where the project is the section the cross section will fit within the forty nine foot right of way forty nine and  broadway if you chose to go without parking then the pavement with could be twenty feet or greater you have the six foot planter and again you have the shared shared use path so i guess we're questioning in our minds is whether or not there's really a need to to offer up that five foot men on this side of the street when you look at we're still within the range of the right away where forty nine and i have pavement with this twenty seven i could probably get twenty four you're talking about two lanes you try talking about lane travel ten feet ahead use a lane travel with of ten feet twenty feet gross your tarp king about parking lanes on one or both sides planter with again i had you six feet if i was in that range and then this is talking a walkway with six to ten feet we were using eight feet for the sheer path use which is five is a little bit slower traffic's going at a slower speed maybe we don't really want to turn lane there we want traffic to slow down on its own and when you have a pedestr street it's especially important to make sure traffic isn't going through there too quickly a turn lane could cause traffic to go faster and maybe visibility not as good down to dickinson street for pedestrians crossing again that's actually at a battle with the transit convince them you know if you don't think it's needed to be trans what needs to be convinced that it's not needed and they've said in their letter of intent that they would like to see  done and when that project's installed they're willing to talk yeah they i've talked with them and about baton about access issues in general along with fifteen and they said they'd be happy to sit down and chat with us and really think through what's best for the area and in our long term planning not just for the site but you know the other things that would go on in the personal cell service definitely rammed in make this work how we want it to work potentially and just to be clear on our our part of this the land use part of this that it's  across the way and how that how the whole thing will be configured so they're concerned with the whole whole part of it and it's really not the do your the it's not really our jurisdiction to decide that it's really but but all we do is say that it has to get settled there has to be a permit and then once there's a permit there that it will be the way the rest of the land use permit follows from that so we do want to talk more about the internal deliveries were started by the right in fourteen we talked about the different style windows items fifteen this is that i believe the wording that you were leading up to this far the access to this project and turn in your attorney have worked out wording for the future that through the access that we have we understand that that is not going to be the access to the t v through the parking lot that this may krause that has suggested another that we actually move that curb cut in the future when the p d is developed whatever that whatever happens up there and it would come in to if you could show that again straight line across the knows what's going to happen in the future so for right now this is our curve because this is the access to to the grocery store i think there's some desire that you know the transit said there's only one  for this entire development where we're hoping that maybe we could get a second one possibly by the church which would be make things better you have to access points but again the future  proceed really what we're talking about here this select who work on needs is needed to approve the road configuration that's all and they in that in their process of developing  of deciding what exactly what they wanted and what they would approve they went through this negotiation process and the lawyers talked to each other to make sure that what they chose to do was made sense legally and so they proposed wording which is acceptable to the select me so i'm not so procedurally just so people understand what's the d r v and what's the select board action on this so the so important come up with warnings that they would approve the road with this wording so that that's and that's what they're proposing to asa sensually to the d m v so it's sort of part and because what we've addressed is the traffic and parking associated with the growth of the market not the existing condition that is this property is being used for so our assumption  was that this access could still be used i don't know david what you're planning for parking for commuter parking but this somewhere out in here and then david needs access to the back into his property i just want to make sure that we're on the same page that in the traffic that is sort of the in and out in this area for commuter and davis use which is periodic i think is still going to be used from this from this  the traffic you know for a new businesses or anything that would trigger coming into the p d or more study you know but the master fine conceptual plan that we have in the one it's also drawn by brian right that is where the future parking would be for the other businesses that we would out there  n that time they could do their own study for the number of cars but there has been existence fifteen and i go there five times a year after year and i'd say the average is seven eight cars i've seen it is high it's fourteen fifteen maybe one day but sometimes even as low as two or three so it's not a great amount of traffic but i think they can bring out the end of the board and work with the town to move the parking right from word years over to that other area again that would be temporary until you know it's really developed and we can figure out further where to go but it would i think it would serve that way and all that i'm not asking is that i i don't know in this language that the tourney's come up with addresses that i still use it for my own access but  traffic counts and do the study and work with them let them come up with a plan that addresses some of the we do i understand you're saying that you are proposing the language as it was the parking lot that backed essentially that back part that used to connect through wasn't going to be used and that there would even be signage put up saying that it shouldn't be access nothing should be accessed through there at that event at the current time so we that that's my recollection of our discussions and so we weren't considering any for access to any of the other part of the parcel so this condition i think you know i accurately describes what we are looking at for the future because the understanding was that current as designed it wouldn't be accessing other portions either so this gets to this same question of the two a question that i had was about the section fifteen you decided to to to try to do what you decided to drop this walk from the existing so you're basically asking us to reconfigure the existing p u g this walk that's under consideration here was part of it is part of presently psych ward was under the understanding that it wasn't a part of the p d and it was a stand alone person i don't remember talking to them specifically about saying there would be no there would be signs back there but during does do that i think what maybe is absent from the staff notes is talking about there so that this is not true you know it was under the understand this wouldn't be through for traffic currently so if it is two different issues this is future and i guess it's up to you to decide what you want to say is ok for now although to be to be honest if the current use for twist on it are you saying that the current use if he could be looked at that moving the bus back to the north is a future could be considered and select more and no lawyers and everything to even see if it was permitted and able to do that in that area and they were you know now and they made their presentation to the everybody and they did or didn't and i'm fine with that for the future i'm not going to guarantee him a lot and i mean i will give them a lot there but i can't tell him they've got to go they've got to come to the board far as i'm concerned and when this gets approved here they have three months do for additional buildings or so forth on the property and plus it's a good place because it fits into the grocery store so people can park in additional parking right next to the grocery store so people on the way home to  i think and that parking lot is proposed you know in some ideal world there would be and it's not proposed to have additional parking for the park and ride you know there's not an excess of parking so that that i think that we're talking about what might happen in the future the other application and that's it's true there but my my my opening question on this was about the rest of the purity and that's relevant to that but i think we've already talked about that that there's more that's that's a different thing that we're going to have to come back and look at this access and the wording that's suggested that that was agreed upon for the proposal reflects stuff that there is that there may need today may need to reconfigure the access that's built for this singleton lot where the rest of the in the context of the rest of the development when that when that happens  so if they did the select board in the you know because they needed to prove their worth of work through their concerns about this and came up with this wording and a very want to greese it this is the wording that they're proposing that we're being asked to produce to approve or not approve this wording i don't think we're talking about changing the wording that's what i want to ask you that we're not talking about trying to change this wording this is what you're pro ok so i can't answer david's concern as to whether the proposed wording will keep him from driving through the parking lot to get into law or i'm not a lawyer maybe he can can speak to that but it looks to me like i would like david is right to be concerned but i'm not a lawyer and it's not what we're being asked to choose to decide tonight the only question would be if if we approve this word there there's a question in my mind as to whether it's a question in my mind as to whether when david decides to drive back and forth up the back of the parking lot into a lot want to pee if if that makes a lot of three no longer be there within their particular warning unless the board has a problem with a particular morning we would adopt it and put it as a as a as a condition and then the owners of law three would have to abide by and if that meant not letting david drive across it because that's what the lawyers figured out it means that's what it would mean and if it's ok then it's ok it's not our jurisdiction that's this is what the select board has has agreed to and what will they don't then the only question that i have about it is that for you said in the context of the traffic study clearly does not take into account more cars going in and out of this curve because they are proposed based on the size of the market so if there is additional load on the driveway because of a park and ride or david driving back and forth to get a lot one or any other future use on what was in the beauty that's a different issue that is not that's not addressed by the traffic study that we have so bookers just because we're going to take calls and read that they'll put it out no i understand that that is part of the this is designed to do that of an dickinson of course i mean we the i think part of the reason for this being an issue is that much of this is in future we know is going to change in the future and i think that's what we're trying to we're trying to not do something that precludes if you to improve and that's what the p t process is supposed to do as well and so you have your per it's your your option to do this but you've walked away from the punitive process and that means that where there is no way that there were no longer considering the future use and ease of use of a lot one in the use of  three we're saying law three is going to do what it's going to do and be approved that way and if that affects the access to a lot warmer that's not the problem in this approved the p d process with make would bring out one of the what all of those issues are all together as part of the approval this this form does not do that so whatever the whatever the effects are a lot one of drawing a property line around law three with approvals as they are whatever those effects are is not considered in this in this is this proposed so if we approve this it's not going to be considered and so that's all i can tell you so damon has brought this question up and i can't answer it and it's really not part of this approval so i think that i think we need to i think we need to let it go we have a we have a proposal that we're going to be asked to act on and unless someone wants to change the proposal continuing to change it where this is what will this is what really has to happen it's kind of unfortunate that there's a question but it's presently like one of the three in the same ownership so that the right of way issue is really is moot but it won't be moot after law three is subdivided in changes ownership there's no i mean people can people are allowed to drive wherever the owners say they can drive but again as they bring up the question there is no right of way proposed here to build up in the data point it would make sense to say you know this is being considered holistically because there's something actually being proposed for the rest of the property but until then we're just arguing with ourselves over where to put all the storm water but right just around the property around the drive around the park between the parking lot in the in the building right yeah just choose a place where we can travel where we're not going to interfere with the grocery store traffic and so forth and just make it that we can drive around there fresh if we have a truck if i had a car and it was nobody there i might take a short cut across the parking lot  across or something you know it's this is a temporary thing before we go to the future because we're going to be updating our conceptual plan where we go on the rest of the piece i mean it's just want to clarify that they did and talks about the discrepancy a lot sizes we think we've covered that next item  middle so again that's that jeremy would be submitting final paperwork for the permit next i i think ten point nine point three point one it was all stuff that we agreed to it's typical requirements of any project three three point two point seven essentially does said some of that the specific design elements of the building and the addition of there are windows that landscaping and seating are you know papers with through just said and building sites and you know the visual appearance of the building and then i mention the seating and landscaping treatments that mike will do  not this time of year probably but sort of in the summer and spring and fall lasts last sentence on page eleven storm retention pond that will be voting in maintained in the future we've offered if there's another alternative to storm water that this could be filled and then additional plantings in the park benches shows smaller and big boy trucks fifty area of that they may be identifying is there are three parking places here in the idea is that this would be for employee parking and would be identified five o'clock it is probably you know in the morning is probably one deliveries are going to be maybe a night my so you know corey between the hours of five or something like that and just control of the site would you typically have deliveries early morning  access road so pulling in there sort of there was cars that that's kind of typical yeah that's a fact way to work there was one point where everybody had to stop and you know w so we would be agreeable to whatever design happens here there's no sidewalk could be a spur could be added into our site from the future sidewalk to keep on going and say parking the west side i mentioned has been taken away or eliminated deleted roads checked this which means i just agree with it so   there is a statement about halfway down that suggested we should place funds in escrow for future construction of a left turn lane i don't think that it's really it's right at the bottom of that first item the last sentence stuff recommends that p o b would require the applicant to place funds in escrow for future construction of a left turn lane if w  you know it as we mentioned last the last time that we put this axis in for the future we don't need it as part of our part of the grocery store so you know we have you know we keep going back to what is dickinson going to be in the future to you know you know it's doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do a lot of improvements on dickinson right now and we don't really know what you know when it's the rest will be done and how it will be done and they may provide incentives to increase efficiency on the motors or put me on again with the idea that they do get some money back to do the evaluation of payback on that equipment the effluent coming from the market to the presidential level if that's not exactly sure what that i supposed to cover but there's no had to go hazardous materials were stored here so plan general development standards is the next area this talks again about the left turn talked enough about that i think the sidewalk addressed the third item they're talking about turning radius we were going to bring a plane at this point the number of spaces again know we talked about the waiver we decided not to take advantage of that eliminated those forty spaces bike racks we have control parking landscaping the number three's required we meet that requirement there's some question about the species of plants we've selected and we'll take a look at that and make sure that you have plants that are going to survive later on here it talks about need to have some type of and i would propose a letter of credit or a following that's what you're going to require page twenty one plan talks about electricity how that's coming in  of totally what the land is used for now is there currently or would there be any limitation to the size or number of vehicles because current use i don't know what the current music is so i guess that's a question i would have and regarding two comments one i think someone said it might have been that i misread it or it was mis stated that it is because dickinson street isn't really under discussion right now someone mentioned possibly even proving traffic flow to underhill satinder that's not true because if with it's current use i think unless i'm mixed up you actually turn toward jolly on the schools in the library you don't even though it's one way toward river road it doesn't help you got to undergo sundram once you go down and drive through the school parking lot i think and lastly that regarding the truck traffic to the store i just want to comment that seven to eight in the morning is a time where fleeting fifteen seconds for a truck to turn in is not insignificant it's a busy time one hundred fifty seven day a you know commuter wise that's it thanks thank you then house yes or time jeff york i have a concern about kids coming over from the school you know they go over to jolly after school every day and they'll certainly be coming over here after events and hear a kid coming over here what are you going to do you try to go across that you know this storm drain  area or you're going to go all the way up and then walk up that exit and there's going to be a tree there were cars can't see you so i think you should dissipate you know the big kids coming over from the school question about on this access to dickinson street and i just have a question of whether that was discussed as when you were talking about approving this present configuration of the street was that part of the discussion that apple can answer that question i will do everything in my power to cooperate with the town in the bus agency to try to see that the services continued in our town and on my  but let's see star use that with heavy trucks they're going to pack yeah right now we don't want to open up we just want to commend the way we are it's very limited use it isn't like we're agreeing that we come back or any but no major redesign is just old due to public comment when one major threw throws me off a little bit we did change parking on the west side you have parking changes you have a lot that's a bigger and last time here comment that we thought was as big as it could be and now it's a little bit bigger what prompted this  discussions was staff and and a desire to eliminate parking on the fifteen side so when you take parking away we had to try to find another way to replace that we came up with just trying to cool it out and obviously we're sad about this project and i think the community is too and if we can make people a little happier with what we came up with  really pretty minor but in that the lighting plan there is that the symbology to use for that goose neck lighting in the water back is the same it just was confusing to try to figure out what was what which i did do that by looking