in terms of agenda you know we will as we are now going to start with the minutes and hopefully you've had a chance to look at the minutes from september thirtieth and from october seventh will hopefully address both of those we go to the minuteman and then we'll come back to pension as i mentioned right will be here in kuwait about five minutes he's coming in from harrisburg i understand that he has landed is on the way ok so everybody should have copies of the committee might be should be interested in is what i just passed around but i say you don't spend a lot of time because i think this is an awful lot of blue smoke and mirrors i'll just point out a few things this is what they are cost will be almost twenty five thousand dollars their projected total budget will be twenty one thousand and change when you really are twenty one million change when you look at that and you go back and you look at this year's budget for their operation which is nineteen point eight and then you look up and you see the new debt service for the new hundred fifty million dollars school is going to be four point four million somehow they're expecting to lower their operating budget down to these like sixteen million dollars five years from now i mean it is to smoke and mirrors they have projecting membership is now this year three hundred sixty two and they want to build six hundred twenty eight school school students school so good there was just a lot of reasons to have an seas requirements and then the transportation component and then the rest of the budget and then they add what will be the belmont on the assumption that doma has to be nine students three hundred thirty three thousand dollars for debt service for a total assessment in the year two thousand and twenty they say of a million seventy nine they take the cost of the school which very preliminary on hundred forty four million nine hundred thousand dollars they assume the forty percent and s b a reimbursement everyone knows m s b a does not reimburse everything everybody knows that the cost is going to go watch so as i say don't spend get to a request for a bond issue they have an alternative method which is a district wide vote and it becomes very clear that they are moving in that direction i don't think they formally voted yet  but they have the right under one of the sections or to actually conduct one day a vote on election in the cities and towns and they can even do troll the polling hours and they may or may not even be able to control the polling places and i expect a very low turnout and i think it's their strategy they will put on a campaign campaign will be  when the needs are all assumptions that they keep talking about but they may very well be successful in a district wide vote and we're going to be swept into whatever this ultimately costs and paying our fair share and pushing our credit so that's why i closed the meeting last week by saying this is a freight train coming you have any idea what the soonest is just like her could be my guess is i've heard rumors and and i want a couple of e mail chains and some of the to have their funding in place in order to continue in the end of this be a process so there's no question that it will take place before june then my like my my guess is some of the early town easier withdrawal route six to seven of them have expressed a desire to get out which is another whole issue which of course impacts on the projective in rome and they i mean is just so many problems with this but they have a momentum in their steaming forward and it's something we're going to have to watch very closely and the alternatives i mean if you look at this sheet which is got all kinds of assumptions which are very favorable  make as to whether to swallow hard and say ok we got to do this or campaign with a lot of others that are against it to defeat the district wide vote but then you have to think ahead what do we do and it probably means a collapse of the district in the reconstituted this week it's not a pretty picture and you're pushing this is all based on just  will reduce everyone else's capital but there is rumor of a lawsuit to set that regulation not to mention them in towns say you would least own a piece of the rock when i mean you would not get the benefit every year of almost eight hundred thousand dollars coming in from these hundred force not just picks do as it is right now they get a complete they pay you to wish which  which is you and i as it is although they do it to pay for transportation they really pay less on the operational side to get the capital ratios i would say pay less per student  what that by saying that for example watertown will pay that incremental seventy five hundred dollars that would suggest if i'm thinking about this properly that whatever tuition we're paying today is some number in watertown is paying some argument that our tuition were the for if it were let's say that it were seventeen thousand five hundred twenty seven which is you know ten thousand plus the number that's you know and watertown's number we're currently ten thousand that would imply that we're paying that we should amounts and we're paying for all of the you know the existing capital costs right if and so that if you impose this then you would basically equivalent it would make our cost equivalent in terms  low from nineteen something to like sixteen or seventeen or something last year and there was outrage that they lowered it but they lowered which turns out when you look at the member towns and what they're paying in fact we're paying more there is  transportation they have to provide their own transportation so that skews already of the now the that the capital up until now as they say is they have had an absolute free ride you remember you may remember a few years ago there was a building code violation in the shop area where they had their kind open bays and they we have a six hundred thousand dollars cost we had to pay our share of that none of the nonmember times had to pay any part of that student there he says because of that gap is very large then we're subsidizing those towns that were sent there were clearly subsidising those towns if the gap is smaller than if it just makes me wonder whether or not as the state is calculating proportionate fee which is predicated upon their almost oktober one in rome and so those are all the assumptions that go into the seven seventy nine if that goes away that burden which is those numbers for students are completely relieved from that was just thirty three students would actually probably know if they can be a lot under the existing agreement they need you know to consent of the other fifteen down still to withdraw i do find it interesting that the center is seemingly not that much smaller in terms of numbers l piece of work done and then could refer back to that as we continue to study or if we want to take some extended period of time to look at a few things more carefully my take away from that is that there were three big considerations that went into that the first drafted i think that's you know we can talk about that more but i think he was pretty straightforward in saying that more importantly just making sure that we were attentive to the authors from town meeting that were done this madam i know you are one and you know we're looking forward to hearing your feedback and comments in the room of like a few lengthy conversations with another i one of the authors and i think we came to a pretty good conclusion on two or three things that she was really wanting to make sure there was an understanding around one of which we'll talk about as opposed to line item that i'm going to make a second is something i think we could speak to fairly and then the third is just sort of how we and the last section report in terms of how we discuss our next topic so i think there's something there and then the last i think are there you know some subset of comments that people made in terms of looking for some more information some of those you will see and hear i think we got a lot of good feedback from jim in annan and roy and i think right right particular i think it's fair to say you know felt very much like we had a lot of good information it was good to get a complete  and was not necessarily you know convinced that we wanted to provide much more analysis so there are certain cases where the group included some of the additional items that we talked about there's at least one case where i brought something along that i plan include in the report but i thought it was a good question and i make sure we could refer to it that pretty much covers it i think you know my advice remains having working in the same daily basis that getting something in place that you can report back to you and this is definitely one of those issues where if you want to go further  and really try to get to a specific recommendation you're in for a penny you're in for a pound or a ton and i think i would just sort of caution against you know a desire to try to come to something really specific as opposed to kind of looking forward to how we would work with the ben and the retirement for others and to that end do you want to make a comment on the notion of pension obligation bosses and there's been some generic discussion about that you know in the community and i have to talk a little bit about how we might treat that in on proposal would get a fair hearing so i think that's something you have to be attentive to and at a really specific level in pension obligation bonds i think the conversation i had with one of the authors was pretty instructive where one issue she brought up was  the borrowing rate they were referencing the poor that we got from the town financial advisor appears to be conservative particularly if you look at it at a presentation the norfolk county got last year so we talked about a four point seven five percent borrowing we rate they had a three and a half percent rate i think in november of last year it's a lower rate of credit and so what i'd like to do is just make note of that in the report is to say you know this number may be conservative for example on your forehead only a lower doubly a predator received forty three point five percent to get informed and then i think that the second thing was there were questions about a specific example that jim williams had presented to people talking about you know sixty or seventy million dollars pension obligation bond and forty five million dollars in savings over twenty or thirty years i think long story short if you achieve this thread between the borrowing cost of three and a half or four point seven five percent or whatever it may be and they have a rate of return between seven and eight  me that is a way to put a marker down but i think there are many of us who feel like about this time next year it could be a worthwhile session with the retirement board about the funding schedule and in addition to that if there were specific pension obligation my proposal theory nearly final document makes i think a number of generic comments and you know overall you know bit of overall commentary on them and provide some material on the back you know for you know greater understanding  of those instruments but there's not tempted to make any particular analysis or recommendation about them and so essentially what this is doing is saying if and when there are there happens to be a specific proposal for on the table we will analyze that proposal in an appropriate fashion but in the absence of a specific proposal it doesn't make sense but just sort of hypothetically talk about what they might be and make a recommendation at this time is that is that sort of your way for i think that's my view and i know the usual questions will come up i'm ready to answer them what else we can do you know but i have i he and i'm not an advocate of letting the town meeting tell us what we were supposed to do but they did and to the extent to which we all of that i think we have to do three things i think we had it would benefit the probably done a magnificent job where we sit with other towns with the effect is going forward we have to analyze the impact and if you look at the numbers you can see the impact you can see  an impact of three point five percent of our operating budget differential but you have to be a numbers walk is that the word to figure out what the impact of that will be if this is a policemen firemen teachers would that be i mean that that tells you what this impact me and i don't think we've we didn't do that we were supposed to ellis the impact of this in future years i don't think we've done that and finally we're supposed to recommend strategy you just say mr chairman it's not up there was to recommend streisand i agree but this is what the town meeting vote asked us to do the recommender strategy of it is stay the co extend the time of it go for a pension obligation so i think ultimately it will nonpolitical body and not going to get it done tonight but but my view would be that the end up saying the potential strategies could include but not being limited to extending the current funding schedule from two thousand and twenty seven to twenty forty the option of reducing the annual increases seven percent to a figure of paragraph we're supposed to assess different strategies for mitigating the impact on our team and to operating budget i think laying out the pros and cons of various strategies that can lead to which this report is doing fills that that request i don't see anything here that says recommend what you think is best for us to do at this juncture but i just read a different kind of agree but i did have a related question which is you say that we're going to analyze actually develops you know the the tension strategy for the town the board of retirement the retirement board is the body that does that and is there you know we've been asked duty to say what is the impact of that schedule on the budget help us understand that and help us understand how different approaches to work i believe in this approach actually does that which i think is what jim is saying it is not my expectation of the work committee will out of whole cloth come up with the optimal strategy for the town in terms of how to manage the pension i don't believe that that is our function right i think that it vising town meeting about the nature of the issues associated with pensions the different types of strategies that are available aspects of those strategies how the pension system works who has responsibility for making what decisions i think is a service that we're providing to them through this doctor i think if there is it's pacific article that is that is offered up before town meeting or for that matter is let's say is going to be available and that's it of course let me were to say david we know this is going to come down the pike we'd like you to look at this and get ahead of this issue right i think we're well within our within our authority at that point to then look at that specific proposal and make a recommendation about that specific proposal but i do not believe in an open the board discussion about i do not believe it is our role to say the the entire board things a certain way if we were to reinvent the world in place and do their job for them what would we do i don't think that that is our job so i'll open the floor to commentary on whether others disagree a well as one of the people helped write this i mean there's nothing you're absolutely right i mean there's nothing in here the mandates us to do anything or mandates us to come up with recommendations so whatever but we look we've got here i think clearly fits within what the article is  talking about putting out a letter and continuing to work on this we wrap it up tonight that although there is some possibility that that will be the outcome i know bob has in the past adjusted that that might be the right course and he may suggest that again tonight it is it is i think the the bias of several members of earlier make this information available to town meeting in the time that was illiterate initially allotted and as conditions develop as specific proposals are potentially made we will evaluate them at the appropriate level for town meetings benefit so it would be  speak for myself would be my preference if we feel ready as a group to do just that if we don't feel that we're really as a group that is for this group to determine right back to what i was saying i mean you were saying earlier but the no spin on the ball thing i think if we put out the options we analyze the options as we're told to do we don't put any spin the ball we put out the information and give it to town meeting you know i think you've done we've done what we were told to do would be nice to have a recommendation on the some level when you put out the put out the analysis some of them just sort of reading between the lines sound like you know even though you're not coming out and making a recommendation when you look at some of them seem more palatable just by the way the numbers play i mean people can figure that x percent of the budget is used to pay for salary and benefits of employees if we apply that life you're going to in years forward that could mean that you would have to reduce headcount by a certain number of employees that's a reasonably easily calculation we could just whatever report we file and post filing a report tomorrow so long as we've made it clear this isn't the final word on this at all if we're not going to go into strategies that we're not going to go into the h is in the second last column that's a number that you said grows into three and a half percent of the budget that five point four million dollars is the cost of growing at seven percent as opposed to growing at that three and a half percent five point four million and twenty twenty seven you can calculate that what that translates into in terms of number of people on an average salary basis for them and you know at an average of fifty four thousand dollars a person you can figure out if you know pretty easily what that was like i mean just nervous simple math so and the terms of simple math are three and a half percent on one hundred million dollars current level of spending right would be three and a half million dollars carry this further out into into next spring if we could we could take a look at every budget line that has the potential to grow faster and faster you know faster than faster than our revenue rate take a look at how that might squeeze out if these numbers hold the assumptions that were built into the into the overall i mean that we are we have enough money to fully fund this at this congress so for that period that is known we do not have a problem in terms of me going to fund the increasing cost of the pensions it's there are so many variables at play as to what happens in twenty twenty six or twenty twenty seven it's very difficult to try to extrapolate because there are just many moving pieces as you're alluding to ok so if there aren't further comments right now it would make sense give them to sort of the series of assumption types that you put in the body of the report you say that but on jeopardy for example lunch every employee growth employees or salary levels so they have a sense of what you're talking about here because i think they'll stop trying to play but i guess you just said this is one article twelve b on pensions as amended so i think it's it's because of the nature of the way the end is it's really important to actually have that amended language in here and it's great that you have it but i would just what i didn't have anything on page five but i think the discretion to be a little bit more clear that the comparable towns the first southwest presented essentially i think were moody's aaa rated communities the point that i made last time around what it was that when we said that there were fifteen towns that were rated aaa in this state i think that that was not entirely clear because there are a number of other change right if you're thinking about fifty versus fifty right if you think fifteen that's a select group and then the real number is somewhat north of that i understand this summer between fifty and sixty five radio so i guess my reaction i think that's right that we need to  retirement systems so there's a many wonder many to one relationship between cities and towns and time systems so it does make sense to me that i think we live in your example that it does make sense to me that those towns have their own credit ratings traditionally compare ourselves to like we did the free cash analysis some of the town with the kind of towns we were using so they may be fifty but they're not necessarily geographically or the traditional ones we look at i don't think it's unclear and i think it's pretty clear best returns i will accept is by far probably the most significant but really you know i never employees change numbers where he changes and in salary levels any kind of anything here that is oddly enough know ok we take some of this money from the pension fund and we do bob's example with how many policemen or how many teachers they would hire we can to think in terms of bodies there's a feedback there too because if you're starting creasing and you current cost you're also increasing your unfunded liability that this plan however modified needs to sort of result and again i just just from a point of view you know i see one of the important purposes of this report is we're giving them we're giving tommy member some food for thought it's nothing it's going to happen probably for a year anyway because it would if you look at actuarial results but you know it starts making them a little bit more knowledgeable but the environment in which you could be making a recommendation to the it seems to me that we don't have to do the same thing for those if you do it for investment returns right and you do your sensitivity analysis we just sort of acknowledgement there are other factors here we're not going to focus on them in here but these are all factors that are based on decisions that have nothing to do with has to be paid and therefore affect what's realistic in terms of a funding schedule is all i'm saying just should specify that a little more than it is right now ok i think that if part of what you're getting at is explored but simply just as a point of information all these other factors also go with affected because these are the factors also there that will be part of what you're trying to look at your face with any requests to make a change pension liabilities base is based on how many employees are in the system right what their salary levels are because their average salary level drives what the patient most will be back again turn over assuming matters because it affects the salary rates in  what's not clear about it but it is also clear to me and say what i'm saying is that at the point we've been doing a sensitivity analysis of data we focus it on really different investment returns and and that makes clarifying that teachers are hard at a different process than he is it is a good idea and i suspect that can be done here is that right so i think we're at the bottom of page five and will be a little bit more clear about the rate i think we need a page six first i think i think we have talked about taking  because i thought it was kind of i thought it was kind of interesting and if we'd done it again we might have done a slightly different approach to what the first part does now as it takes the same information from first first southwest but shows the funded ratio from highest to lowest  interesting the belmont is first in the class and then the other five towns i mentioned are all all the way on the right hand side of the i think one suggesting which i we should have followed and we could fix if we wanted was to have the second char follow the same order of the towns that are the first arc and i'd be happy to do that because i think actually does an interesting story that you have five or six that are the right hand side with the lowest funded ratios and all of them have full funding dates that are closer to twenty forty seven maybe jim made that recommendation yeah but not so the second chart will follow the same order as the first part and part of that will indicate that someone is actually doing quite well from a fundie perspective and there are several towns like wheeling in western iraq and who are not twenty very much who are actually on the wrong side of the earth  there as well which is which is interesting to say ok that to to what to a bad stock market environment because i because because i think that that's kind of the scenario where the pressure will come in the future to push it out too so it's nice to sort of see them see that historical eight i think i tried as best i could just give a little bit more context as to why picking a six percent lower rate of return is just an example to analyze when we're looking at should be looked at i'm very comfortable with this approach and i'm going to make a site to the society of actuaries blue ribbon panel report which talks about sensitivity analysis which i think is it's being done kind of in the spirit of what is here but i valuation is really sort of a key a key marker for us you know i don't know whether you know how to make that stronger or you know hold it or whatever but but but the fact i mean we spend a lot of time looking at twelve year numbers but in fact you know we're trying to get people prepared for the conversation that's going to happen next next year with numbers for eighteen and nineteen are being set up and this is one of the few than we could just take up the very last clauses and subsequent years will be established and that's not a huge thing missing that you know this is this is when the rates are going to be set for those two fiscal year maybe what we if you just rephrase the sentence to say extending the cut if we standard are targeted to twenty forty you know plimer analysis would indicate that would allow us to leave our contribution flat if the other thing that is not actually is clear here is that if we were to do that it would very likely have an impact on our bond rating it's based on what florida said it seems extremely unlikely that if we were to make this choice that the bond do believe i mean we always have and we had the option in the future to extend extend the funding i mean and and maybe sort of making that clear that we've done in the past and i mean we are we are facing a fork in the road now that we have no way of working but you know you know yeah i think it's i mean i'm pretty sure that all of us believe well let me rephrase i think it's possible that all of us believe and others can comment that it's standing the funding schedule twenty forty in this way would be an imprudent decision but that would be unwise for us to do this this language is i think not it's not neutral but at the same time it's not really explicit about the fact that we would again i'm just saying that all of us would agree that that would be a bad decision right i mean so i guess the question is should we be a little bit more explicit about that fact well it's the between the lines that i was point that i think it's important i just get dressed in that way and that there's other places here i know there are results that i was surprised by so i think this is an example where i feel like the report could be effective and narrowing the range of things that actually should be considered and i think that approach so i think that takes section five is that right and and just what was saying i don't want to get into the merits of it but just appears that the very conservative borrowing rate which is substantially less than what historic rate of return rate is there may be some big because that's the only risk ye where where it comes from is taking a look at the historical return and and measuring that over you know ten or twenty years and taking a look at the quarter by quarter differences to sort of see how wide wide how wide the range of possible read it turns are and then and then a doing a simulation of many times and just sort of saying ok what if we what if we draw from that from th possible range of outcomes and plotting that over you know over the ten or twenty years and seeing it basically counting counting the number of times that you fall short and it's and indeed that's where that probability comes  digit probabilities of things that go south are a big deal and then it becomes kind of this judgment call and something and you know it's like religion like i said before people either like it if they don't and so i was what we're trying to do just give a little something to to work with  the course i guess i'm curious what this does yeah i mean that's a again that i think gets you again back to the need to really spend a lot of time with this and on a really specific example i think part of what you're focusing on though is that some of the challenges any time you have leverage because what you're doing is borrowing and then investing money in the stock market essentially i think the point that we try to make here is that over and over short time horizons and at last getting back to towns cost of borrowing for infrastructure sort of gets at that but i think you're definitely focusing on the right issue which is certainly you want to calculate where your savings or loss could be over the very long term but if you get in one of those distressed situations you could be underwater underwater  that idea of short term volatility leading to uncertain results that therefore require a proposal that thinks through all those things that can be presented to people in a way is almost a bigger concern if you have comfort with the long term return and we could talk all day long about whether the last thirty the next thirty years are going to look like the last thirty years where you've had a historic bull run in the stock market and you had a declining interest rate environment which is favorable for for  but i think i think you're drawing on what is a really important issue which is what are you going to do in those short term situations where things can be volatile and that depends on a plan so and i think you are going to be n is that the plan we have in place we're going to be gradually investing our money to stock market over the next twenty four thirty years and so it's like putting something in every every year and you know some years the market is going to be up some years marketers market i'm going to down pension obligation bonds as let's where all the money now let's put it all in all in the market right now and so we're so we're much more x x close to what's going to happen next year and the year after that and we would if we were just sort of quarter it could be over to yourself or i could say i don't like the market right now i'm going to slowly get in over the next year or two i think if we i think we go through the process of inclusion to raise you know   x tens of millions of dollars for a for a pension obligation and then you know that this can be done with the expectation that we you know that we use it to close the cost of yeah yeah i mean i think six point six that's just not a good enough spread anybody looking at that they're saying hey listen one hundred sixty basis points that's not worth the gamble but four hundred basis points maybe that's worth the gamble so i can i just i would like to add a sentence after that five three percent borrowing rate on the pension obligation what do we have to say it's conservative i mean i just don't think it's a good number two number three when you talk about the notion of kind of betting on the spread affectively you know is the spread a certain amount are willing to bet on that if you're if you are a hedge fund manager or if you are a private equity investor the idea of betting on the spread and you know using money to do that is a entirely reasonable thing to do and you can win eighty percent of the time and you can make lots of money that's all good that's generally not what we need to have these do you somehow if you're not in the business of you know taking money and then betting on the spread between an interest rate and a cost and so i would say that without that assessing any particular pennzoil you should want to go to your point it sounds really great it does sound great if you can actually have those outcomes come into play but i would say that i'm not aware of any other community that looks like us at all that is actually taking this approach and when i see that we're in the you know that no one else and i know a great you can comment is doing this it just raises the bar higher my mind of saying is that the right answer it's not to say that you know it's a bad idea and i think that if we have a specific proposal really dig in deeper but i just want to kind of lay on the table some of the concerns that i just expressed and  sentence like jim just said that the different pension obligation involves putting all the money and now and letting the right of the stock market as opposed to entering it in over time till two thousand and twenty seven goodbye bit mitigating the risk you know i think that's page page ten i think i think the seven point nine for the ten years ending twelve thirty one should be viewed really as sort of being in the ballpark of the seven seventy five you know i don't think we should sort of set the expectation that we're clearly out performing because if you take a look at the numbers you just passed out the ten year number as of august of seventy three so you know so we're i mean so we are we do have a long term that the long term performance has been has been can consistent with a seven seven five first the chair should prepare the pension report based on the draft provided to the ward committee members on cobra thirteenth the committee's discussion of the draft on oct fourteenth and nine substantive proof rea the committees pension report and so it's going to be so you know i want to table discussion for the moment because there may be others who believe that we won't actually be ready to to in fact do just that so i'll come back in a second when we talk about the conclusion and then we can then step back to didn't say you know did we feel ready to issue this and is this valuable to tell at this time do you have a specific recommendation on anything that i think i think the only question is tension system and work with the retirement board and other top officials is that sort of really broad generic language and i guess that the two thoughts that i have in my mind is to be really specific michel  i will say again and again that i think a rich discussion of pension obligation bonds you need a really specific recommendation a proposal that accounts for all the different risks and has accurate numbers on the spread and all those things that takes a lot of work action it goes beyond anything that's been discussed so far and we should be it's sort of says that we are at the at the beck and call and how to say it properly that that we essentially operate at the at the as as you're pointing out like we only do things unless how many assets do i also would say we don't know so we do things only because of you feel it's appropriate of the board feels it's appropriate for us to look and they will actually take that under advisement but at the same time i don't want to pigeonhole us into necessarily only doing things if it comes to be that way is that there's a may disagree with that but feel differently maybe the retirement  analysis of the minute now there may be a day when you believe and that working as a whole believes that we have enough information and it's sufficiently proximate that we should look at it even if there isn't a word article yet like because we know that we have that you know it's close enough that in there's enough work to be done that we should start looking at it so i think it's it that is our judgment call essentially to make as a body as to when that is appropriate informed by you know requests or from different from different groups or the so i think that the generic language is actually appropriate i think is that in most other comments or questions or or suggestions related to that specific conclusion minutes from the retirement board and i think in reviewing it i'm not sure that has any value  and and if you look at the numbers you could figure out the impact on the budget so all those two aspects of the three things clearly we've done the recommendation with the i'm seeing some nodding other comments or questions think more likely than not that it's going to need to come from the board of selectmen in some fashion or a board of select right and i think i think that i that's my expectation understanding and i don't know that anybody has a different point of view in other words i don't know that we're going to expect to get do i would like to see the work may have a role in that frankly but i know that some some of us that talk about this offline weren't caught that's felt like a recommendation to people and so i'm just trying to make sure we balance what is appropriately general language and i think we stick with what we have is sort of  on that you know the an appropriate number of people will you know collaborate to to get that work done so just to be clear about that you're i mean i'm and i'm saying i i second that i mean that it doesn't really  you know our job to figure out where that work would fall within within our current committee structure or whether whether we need a special group to take a look at it but but you know i mean it's nine twenty eight you know saw first members of the first time in my life i think when they were here the other day to the members you just look at your charts belmont is way down as far as his percentage of funding it is way up as to the most draconian method of funding it is quickly as possible to me that means they have not analyzed the impact of what they're doing it is judge of their obligation of the impact that has on the rest of the operating budget and i think the extent to which we got concerned with the operating budget we should have a day on going dialogue with them so that when they make decisions they will understand its consequences they certainly groove going dark we're this document with them and i think that we can a further discussion about exactly what process