that seems sort record of argument where did the claims teach our user can add these parameters to the database structure and where did the claims keep how the system prevents the predefined database structure their claims don't their claims are you saying an example of how it's done the claims to not provide an example of how you can modify how you can add a parameter to the predefined that without modifying it could find structure that's discussed in the prosecution the specification explains an indexing is similar to organizing the white pages and yellow pages doesn't that demonstrate the claims are directed to an abstract specification but in the expert report said that this is a very specific type of database having that particular structure you can have one that doesn't have classifications you can have one that doesn't have probably was a technology who creates that database describe how to structure the database and then that's the database to program that somebody else has done the claims haven't done or that they ventured is not programming that database that database comes to the to the user program correct that's not routine in conventional or that's not directed to an abstract idea in terms of timing something that may be off the shelf today back in one thousand nine hundred eight when this was first are you claiming that you invented a new specific that's needed it has a classification parameters values which are used to describe where does it tell you what those classification parameters values or the like are in  so that's helpful you're trying to get to the specification but how do we know that you have to find yourself to the specification or the like in these point one cases we look at the language of the client and this is a very very broad functional language that seems to me to be directed to collecting and it in applying information and data and the like and we've never held that acknowledgement if you if you have a new database where the information here saying a new database but how do we know what that database is and what you've identified as a database from looking at this claim or use a new database in the context in the sense that it has different information  towards a person of ordinary skill in europe and what a person of ordinary skill in the art of understand but they still wouldn't know exactly which pacific kind of parameters and values and classifications you're using based upon the claim language those would be parameters and then the values would be the information that you put into the parameters so colored blue and so how is any of this new going to be a structure it's just different parameters for information the classification of parameter value structure alone is not what's what's happened it requires additional structure to it so in claim nine of the six five two patent you have to be able to add framers without modifying the structure of the database it's explained in the specification how to do that it's also discussed in the prosecution history how that can be done but in addition this is not only a general structure database this is a database in which the not that you're not going putting it for somebody else to go well what did somebody else search what did you search for how many times did you search for this like i said you can probably five with the intent of the user doing a google search is not to store their own item information so what do you claim this database and when i was asking a while ago we're just database come from tommy a programmer created and as far as i can see if you're not claiming the steps of the programmer takes to create the beta base is not what is not the intention here correct no the database the structure of how the database responds is or how it operates it's because you have to use a particular database of a database within the database how to use that control how the database is organized and how whether somebody could actually search for information and fight useful information for future and so what all these claims are on a high level it's have a limitation which requires providing the database providing certain information to the user before the user inputs information so not only is there a classification parameter value structure but a users and putting information the database prompts the user with with what other people have used in order to sort of influence them so by the other than cell in those those describing a new structure for the database it may be describing a new way that the database provides information the structure of a new structure might be patentable a new way of providing data and different formats and requiring different responses from the user is not and this database that is not one of the other there is a particular structure in addition we've been talking about a particular structure but i have yet to hear you data that's not enough we are in the patent claims or the specification does it and let me give you what i'm looking for in fish we've actually found a new database structure primarily because it was a means plus function clane and it had a specific algorithm in the specification that defined this new database structure do you have anything close to that here i mean i grant i know these aren't means plus function claims but you have any specific algorithm for that like defining the structure of this new database there are figures in the in the figures and examples in the specification that describe this is how you set up the database this is what it means to be a classification this is what it means to be a parameter this is what it means to be a that doesn't sound like a new database to me that sounds like this is how you program a database well except at the beginning in columns one through three they describe alphabetical databases hierarchical databases yellow pages databases specialty databases and so that those are just always of organizing information on the database right and at the fact where i don't just describe it to me where in the specification point me to the lines and columns that you think describes a new database ok if you after describing through and then in columns in column three lines twenty five to thirty five it talks about language of what the database does not what the new structure of this new structure of what the structure there are of the best i can say is that this specification explains what firearm database for and broad functional claiming language that was permissible preallocation but they don't have anything in them that describes a specific algorithm or the like about what this new database structure you're night now trying to base eligibility on i mean i've just given you a couple minutes so give me your best seven for the specification and all you pointed me to is functional climbing languages or anything else you know i'll have to look back at your i mean our point is that people are coming here and saying that these are conventional we have experts are saying this is not really right it doesn't matter if it's conventional or not if what it's directed to is an abstract idea the whole idea behind these patents is if we have a more informed user of the database if they have some information about historical usage that they will then put in better information the database now that's not a new database that's not a new database structure that's the idea that if the user knows how information previously put into this database it will likely use some of that information  their information their records and it's important to note that in these claims there is nothing that actually requires the users to use previous parameters there's nothing that actually requires them to use the parameters were values there were the use by others it's just if we give them this information if we give the user this is storable information the user will be better informed and a better informed user provides better data so instead of garbage in garbage out to get useful information coming and which should make the database better but that is essentially an abstract idea it's just the idea that if we give these users information they will put better s the absolute non cognizable nature of what mr burnett provided impact this case in any fashion now there are just mr barnett simply par the attorney's arguments in the briefing even more so he has no citations say anything other than the patents provide no as i said garbage in and we got garbage out what we got coming out of that declaration was just him saying evidence either side any other evidence you want to submit for convert this into a summary judgment motion each side said no we have no more evidence of the only thing they had was the patents prosecution history and mr barnett speculation which is conclusi it doesn't have anything to do it doesn't actually say anything other than it's possible to create databases that don't have parameters or values which i find hard to believe that you could create a database without parameters and values that's the whole point of the database is to have records that have tickler categories and then information within those categories but he says well there's other ways to do this other than what we've claimed well that's irrelevant just because it's possible to create a database that would not infringe on these claims does not mean that the claims are not directed to an abstract idea or that there's any kind of inventive concept now they talk about whether they mention very little about whether this was conventional in one thousand nine hundred eight but opposing counsel said just said you could take a database off the shelf and program it such that it would work in the manner required by these claims but these claims are not directed to the actual structure of the database to the patents or method claims and the third the self evolving database is just an analog of the methods just saying have a database structure that has instead of group for million whatever that is not an improvement to the functionality of the database improving the information input to a database is not sames improving the functional is it not it's the point was to point out that there's a very specific structure to the database i know you're out of state the classification parameter values is a generic struct law federal rules of evidence require that in order for a court to consider an affidavit of someone it must be admissible under the rules of evidence  parameter value structure for database is not the ordinary database it's not in a generic database there are many generic databases out there for example the typical database is actually just printers and values there's no classifications to it so when you go to the next cell spreadsheet it's just parameters and values a lot of databases are just classifications of data so in terms of describing what what he's doing is he's saying  new parameters without modifying the structure of the database but this is not something that's caught up in the us it's not conventional that's not ordinary and it's specific to your i said all right we thank you very much we thank the party for