cost and it was considerably higher than we had anticipated it was twenty two point five million dollars so we weren't ready to say let's go for it we  had a good discussion with lots of input from the public as well as the council members from their conversations with the public on their own questions and concerns and thoughts and we ask them to sharpen their pencil they went through a series of items that we could consider to cut that would skinny down the price but even some of those were hard for the council to say oh that's a great idea to not have a sky laser we managed to agree on a few of them but not all of them and i think they totaled like eight hundred thousand two million dollars and that still in our minds is is so we asked them to go back to the drawing board and come come to us with some numbers about not that anyone indorse this but what would it cost if we just did a library because some of the costs as i understand were increased their original the real original number was like fifteen million  seventeen million and then it crept up to nineteen million and once they really did due diligence on the actual property and the soil on that piece of property they learned that the they needed considerably i guess deeper and fatter and more expensive more concrete footings to hold up the building and that added between one and two million dollars i think to the cost or something it added because it is my one point five that's between one and two and then there were some other cost drivers that we didn't anticipate so one of the things that we also talked about is is it possible to reduce the footprint so that there actually isn't a need for a land swap with you because the way the building is situated or the way it's designed now it really goes right to the edges and we need that extra property both for the utility lines and sewer and water but also for parking but we wanted them to look at  configuration this as a possibility and the other issue that really influences our conversation with you is to have a better understanding of how interested in farm you are about really wanting to have this building in the future to use as your administrative offices if that really isn't  a an absolute that we might want to see if we can make the building smaller and not have to have the land swap or any agreement about giving you this building so and i don't know if you're ready to share with us kind of where your thinking is how firm that interest is or need i don't know where the need something you have want something you know what a what a good opportunity that sounds great the price is right tim bucks but do you really need it enough to have us continue to go back to the drawing board and keep the footprint have have that land swap and find other ways to make the project more affordable or say this is what costs and take it to the voters in some number and it's an up and down vote and then we can go back to square one does that summarize it or discussion purposes  so yeah i heard truly trying to answer questions that we've heard in the community questions about what everything costs and if we thought about it in a modular kind of way why do we need three different things why not two why no one and so that's what led to just a discussion oh well if we do that we have this symbol euro and then we need this building and so it's it's really just to see what options you know we have before us without as we haven't wedded to any work and we just simply wanted to i think also  children in the schools and they think you do need this building they think you need administrative space so but some people might not feel that way if they don't have schools and the children so i think that the children children in the school  and and understand how it may or may not interact with what you are thinking or believing to be appropriate for from from the school board perspective  so it's really not pain just ten dollars for this it's part of the quid pro quo for actually making the one full of or nearly one beaker of land there available just just to clarify the record right at the exchange it's not worth we're not right might have to depending or if you all really need this space that influences the other on the other piece of land because we want to we want the schools to be as good as they can possibly be as well and if this really facilitates that going into the future that influences our final decisions over there really you know what were triggered the lengthy discussion of course was the fact that the price has has worked its way up significantly for reason is such as the soils and other things as helen said i think are and initial intent and are probably are still our intent and thought is  to build what we initially wanted to build a given the price that you ation we started to look at what if what if what if it's all of what ifs are on the table and and so it becomes what if the schools really don't need or want this property what would that mean but if you really do that i think it is important for us to know so that ok we know that this is solid and and so so let's figure out how we can make a community center ok we've got a meeting scheduled a regular meeting at seven and on our agenda for action is to consider a meeting morning for november vote so all of the work that has been done to date by our staff hard ministration and board members was to get to a definitive am a review so it sounds like to me i mean the purpose of a very brief time frame which ends in about three minutes tonight was really to have the each of the representative me as a municipal bodies kind of acknowledge that we were moving forward so it sounds to me like the city has a little bit more exploratory work to do based on some of the initial figures you got on costing and it sounds like there's a question based on the lead time for a november ballot that that would be off the table now not n think there's still some time we also might consider having it is a ballot i did him in march not november if if or split it if we needed time  or have it like the penny for pass a separate city ballot not on the federal and the federal not on the state ballot and that gives us a month of a month more time to  figure that out so there's of course pluses and minuses about all of those things all of those choices putting it off for you and i appreciate that it's difficult for  of us to convey fully what you know was going through you know all of our minds as we are talking on monday but we're not throwing them all you up in the air i think what i heard the fourth say is they just wanted to have the school pretty significant component component and it's in the end will you so it's simply i think it sounds like maybe be the better way to move forward as you pursue more definitive the direction you've given your firm on the design options that perhaps we consider amending our agendas are regular meeting really to extend the end that we use so there's an opportunity for for a more thorough review of that and i think the board's been clear about you know what the what the trade offs are and what the you know what the benefits are from a district standpoint but it seems premature to to be talking about something that's in the m o u document if that's not been finalized by the council at this point well i don't have to so i have t fear so as i go to the people to make an argument for this proposal and really to the school district is i would be concerned going forward into the november ballot that i couldn't say to the voters with a straight face that i have heard from the school board that they want this building that they would use this building for your administrative purposes i'm trying to gauge from the school board are you most supportive of this current m o you because of the site work and they just will parking and the building is just because we're not going to be using it anymore my other part of that fear would be three years four years five years from now if we had excess space if this was just underutilized i feel like we would have neglected our long term planning or not been thorough enough to really consider all the pros and cons the last piece just for you to ponder that came up on monday night school related is of the design has a north facing terrorists and we just wanted to know if that had risen into a new discussion points on that point i think all of this is covered in the m o you know and i don't know h council has had an opportunity to review it in depth but i know the board called a special meeting on monday to review this so i guess i would i would say that the level of specificity that you're indicating to me is all in the you and it would be very difficult to but that's not what we came prepared to discuss at this meeting so i would i would just recommend reviewing that if you have the additional questions i certain how committed you you were to to that if it really was an important part of your long term strategy second i mean it's a list that said to me we put a fair amount of work and we've had significant amount of conversation about the benefit that this would be and i think it is  you and it's not been something that the board has entered into without due diligence and so for us obviously we wouldn't be here if it wasn't and we wouldn't be at this place tonight with the way it that's going and so i think we're both kind of watching and working collaboratively as we move forward with master planning recognizing the areas that are discrepant in our district whether it's our high school facility or middle school facilities etc and how that all fits in all at the same time you guys are moving forward again this this is to be clear this was a lot of work done by the board to get to the where we are with a lot of conversation which currently has been supported that's helpful yes i think i think that's what we're that's what we're going for and then our challenge as a city council  will to include what we what we feel it needs to include so that the residents of south burlington will say yeah this is a great idea and if anything over the next couple of few weeks pops up that says this really is going to be a major problem for them we'll let you know as soon as soon as soon as we know but i'm guessing we're not going to discover that this is my personal opinion i think i think we're going to i think we're going to go forward and find a way to make the building forum and because let's say we go ahead with the twenty two million dollars that's going to be right something that we're going to have to work very hard to convey to voters why this is important and one of the pieces of that is  cool and we want this this building to be something that the voters say that makes sense so i mean but i just want to make clear that the the use of this property is part of a quid pro quo it's part of the exchange for you know the the approximately one acre if you decline and said well we don't need that one acre you know that's a different story do we really need this this bad that we really want to have the exchange of the one acre you know they've done all of that it's balancing you know it's this is to  balance what the benefits are if you didn't need that land if you reduce the size of this to so that you didn't need that land that's a different question as a different question i don't think we're answering that we want to have you take that way and so we can have this building that's you know it's you want that land in exchange you know to balance  the building that is different maybe it's subtle but i think that when else they say i mean our we have not had a discussion in public about the terms of the and right on either side so you know already we've just wanted to have a public statement that you are it's the only the only thing i would say i mean it's like with anything i mean we're we're here you know the borders is and here are two essential it was warm for an for an action  that said i think we're understanding that you're in need of time based on the pricing you know and recalibrating perhaps what i would say is certainly where we remain interested but what i would say you know time is time time brings about other other factors too so if you were to say it's going to we're going to delay this i know this isn't the case we're going to delay it for six months be very different to us because again we have a lot we need more information in word to land on the final figure that is required on the ballot which is part of the m o u so i i ye my question would be to follow up on mars hypothetical if we went with a smaller footprint and didn't need the acre of land what does that look like for the school district does that translate to spending x number of thousands of dollars for new administrative space over the next short term horizon thus a stronger argument to the voters that this is the that you know the board in the administration staff spend a lot of time on a pretty specific and i think they stand alone i think they answer only questions that you've indicated so i don't know if there's additional clarification you get there sounds like that's available can be considered in your decision and i think a nutshell of all the premise of the m o you is going to be intact and as drafted but we haven't been able to nail down that final number because there's too many pieces that have to if we've got we've got to fine tune it you don't you don't rush into a twenty two and a half million dollars until we figure out what that final figure is going to be have there are some things we can take out some things we can change  you know i would hope we can move forward close to as planned just with some modifications design and content but from my perspective i can speak for all of us and i hope maybe i am is that our intent is that  you is great and that's what we're going forward we've got to nail down a price and then we can go forward and as somebody said we've got to for you if we split the ballot in two up into a local ballot we we can think we've got ourselves a few more weeks and worst case scenario we don't vote until march and i think kevin you said the worst case is that bush's groundbreaking back a few months in the grand scheme of things that doesn't matter so we've got we've got time to figure this number out but if we're spending twenty two and a half million dollars or something less than that for a building that's going to last one hundred years we darn well got to get it right and so it's going to take us a little longer to do that but i in my mind i have every belief that that is more you are absolutely going to be int is that if the if the ever you are today it goes on the ballot in november and it's approved but in the meantime we decided something different you may have to go through a pastor who have all you that's a possibility we're not to let that happen want to push it off a couple of weeks you know and if we come up with another fine if we don't come up with a number in a few weeks because there's still too many decisions to make and it takes longer you know i mean i think we're not building a twenty two and a half million dollar building  about they did go on record as saying yes we really it is pretty quid pro quo right but they did say they really wanted the space right right so i think we can  well hopefully we could even ask them for a special meeting if we can come to our fruition with the number soon in order to make it to the november ballot that  ask them to have a fifteen minute meeting to approve it with us we certainly can and we've got until you say if we're going to use a local ballot we can go until about to kember fifteenth about there's not official gives us feds a whole month off there's no way we're doing it by next monday so so it's either a local ballot by then or we're going to have to push it off till march let's see where we go you just put the onus on the poll workers that's as we found out all right we'll move on to six and they're working session on the public facilities and these this just picking up where we left off right yes and we have do we have some more information a lot  i think it was the number one but they didn't do the librarian senior center alone three hundred fifty thousand so we plug that number in which reduces the dat as any capital campaign would reduce the debt at the time that we take that that the city to elects to take that at  the i went back and looked at the numbers for the roadway and so i moved some of the some of the costs associated with the road re that are on the owners side for the land acquisition into the impact fees so they're no longer part of the debt by the developer we would include that within our debt as opposed to the impact fee as opposed to the street which is a city center street and therefore eligible for impact so where we're treating those two street separately one is the one on market street is within it as being a cost that would be funded and the new street is being calculated is as impact funded and just to clarify all of these numbers are estimates so they're based on the information that we have now and so the total estimated cost it's built out of a series of allowances some things are fairly fixed like fees land costs those are already we already have agreements in place that set those costs we know what the the fire permits going to be a certain percentage of the total building cost things like that but and you know we know there's right now the design has so many windows and so many doors and and so some things are pretty easy to ask me and then other things are built out of allowances so between the first column and the second the second column and the third taking the estimate from the second and third column which is for the whole building and taking all the costs that have been calculated looking at the cost that belong to the parcel itself versus the school site looking at c belong to the library looking at shared costs that the library would still have to continue and having conversations about that to better understand what shared and what's not and then   on monday minus any deductions that you had consensus on that could be taken and that eight hundred thousand approximately six hundred thousand has been reduced so it's still and if you include the pv it's almost twenty three million so twenty two point eight million total and when i say p v that means cell there i always have to think about it because i think i always think  john stetson as well as you for a and several of the architecture team members were working on this and one of the things they came up is that we are still very very early in the design process there are a lot of allowances there are a lot of unknowns and there will be and you know as we get finer grained detail into the mechanicals and so forth there will be opportunities to as we get into finer grain to cut costs and generally explain the process is you see your costs go up and then you and then you cut them and make them go down they go up and they go down throughout the design process but we're very early on so a lot of we have a lot of unknowns so there are very little few known things that can be cut and and the other the other element of that is that if you know we would discuss those with you and as we go through them if you decide ok we want to keep that we want to keep that at a certain point first some buildings you can leave a certain portion and belt i don't think we would do that only because i think every part of the building is programmed to be it seems like there's a man for every part of the building right away but the furniture fixtures and equipment is over a million dollars for this building and so that's a budget where that's a wonderful opportunity for a capital campaign and it's also a budget that can be added at a later time its order comes that those funds are needed much later in the project and first some of the building some of some rooms can be furnished at a later date so so that so what so the last column really reflects that and what it includes is minus one point two the building that you looked  at so that accounts for eight hundred thousand in the cuts that were discussed those do not have to be the cuts that those are just you know we know that that much can be taken out and we estimate that another six hundred thousand could also be taken out of that budget as the design progresses so that number that come reflects back and then you also asked for you know what would it cost to build the library alone a lot of the costs are in the site and in the f and unfortunately we are looking at the library and even things like an elevator if you have a basement in a public building like a library which has controlled access because you  to control the access in and out of the library that's where you check out books and that's where you leave the library you would either have the choice of the basin being only first half parking so then you would have one elevator to the basement or you could have two elevators one that goes from the basement to the ground floor and then one that goes up to all the rest of the floors so that you have a clear access to the library so the array and the road so all of those three components are in the top number and then the cost that would need to be financed any deductions from the finance so anything that's raised by through capital campaigns right now we know there's four hundred twenty eight thousand dollars the total bond and then how much would be financed through to financing how much would be financed through a capital reserve fund funded bond and what the estimated payments from the cia and for the capital reserve fund bond would be the amount below eight hundred sixty thousand annual reserve contribution we have a quick drying of the facade passing just so you can see what it would look like in context what the parking is on that the libraries and undertake and any savings and do we know what that ballpark figure is i can't remember what what did the consult the possible number was it eight hundred thousand in total so it's just an additional three about or three seventy because that included the ok so potentially i know that you can't bank on it but that's what they're estimating the possibility of capital campaign for the library so that certainly helps another three hundred thousand dollars thirty to forty spaces on site would be on the written markov property is that correct correct so that i would look for you to explain where you came in the fall of one from the eleven million to the thirteen seven to go before they're ready to back and call them one to district finance ball and you allowed in the chip district financing plan which is the follow up plan in which that seed determines the maximum amount that can be used for a project based on the estimated cost to because our estimate cost in twenty fifteen was lower although we did include escalations we did not include sufficient escalations and so because you're right we can try change we can certainly try but this is the this is what we have a eleven the eleven point four million that's the trade the trade cost so so the construction cost has several components it's what's the construction manager will bid out different packages for the project so that's their estimate of the trade costs and then they have their own costs on top of that so they have a supervisor that's on time on site they have people coming in and doing surveys and making sure everything's in the right place they have their safety inspector they have you know their profit they have all the people who make sure everything happens on time and on schedule and you know it's ordering supplies when they're supposed to be in arriving at the site when they're supposed to be in wearing their hard hats and it's so they have approximately five percent in theirs and so they have an economic engine see for design actually they have seven percent because they have they have two one for them and one for the design and then we have one for during construction  for you ok david well i think first of all echoing tom in forty eight hours you think they're very clear picture of where we're probably at i think that's great thank you  is saying well the design has a what quite a ways to go and we're probably going to be able to take some more out as we as we do that and that might leave us with twenty one nine but then if the library call twenty one eight and the library raises eight hundred and we're down to maybe twenty one if we don't use all the contingencies you know we could be between twenty and twenty one has a realistic number i think it's important that we get to a number that we're comfortable with and that you're comfortable with because we don't want to go out with a number that you say i'm not sure we can we these we're pretty comfortable with that but the way i see it we have to make a final decision library senior center city hall that's what we're building then we're looking at numbers of twenty two not twenty one nine  fine tuned as the design proceeds hopefully in the next few weeks some of that can be fine tuned fairly readily so that we'll know that we have been working on developing details in a system and it's a schematic estimate there's very few physical construction details that they're working with so our teams have been working to develop those details for september fifth at that point i knew estimate will be developed so three weeks after that point there should be an updated number based on more physically weeks after september fifth so that that makes it difficult for us to make the november back of all so and to the last we can unless we think we're close enough by september fifth to say we're going to be able to do those so this so this number that twenty one point eight which has a total find that of twenty point four million that that  number i think for that team as well and especially for the construction manager and they're really the ones who say ok you've got to change because they're doing all of the cost estimating it's helpful to have a solid target number  because we can be taking out this or take out that or take out this but when you have a number like that then it's easier to make those choices those really tough choices like ok we're not going to have a green room for you know we're not going to have this  but all of that getting to that number is probably going to be throughout the design process that's probably not going to happen in the next month so we might well probably take another three hundred off there are going to be some and one of the reasons that i put in a range of parking because we have some decisions about how we do this a plan for the school that because of the m r u that might come a lot faster but some of them will lose a lot of parking but my table out of me so just there's there's probably like thirty things in this project that could do that and some of them will get to earlier and some of them won't get to much much later in the project because as you know down each thing then you design that or as i say you  once you know something down they can get to the next layer but level of detail but an important level of detail is what number are we trying to get i think i think that's where we're  t designer team and those who have provided input have done so to inform the council as to what the public  desires in a building and now you're confronted with having to deal with the cost issue i think the time is now to merge the two matters and have the council discuss not to exceed number that's also on the table as to be on the table or but for for them to be able to move forward constructively they now need to pretty much know that number but that's that's my opinion right now i'd just like to ask a question of all of the five of us library senior center city hall we need to agree that that's what we're looking at and then i think i think we know enough this evening to give you folks a target i mean in my mind i'll just say what i'm what i'm thinking i'm seeing twenty one eight seven to the library raises eight that magic number is probably twenty one and say ok twenty one for if you can do better better and don't do any worse than that and that in my mind twenty one based on what i've heard so far is an acceptable number if we're building a library senior center at city hall and from my perspective that's what we've been talking about all  it doesn't make any sense to build just a library so let's let's let's do it that's that's me i'm following you up to the twenty one because i want to know what the one point two takes out and i i went into this saying it that if any cuts are going to be made i don't want to be on the environmental soundness of the building i don't want it to be on the during delivery of the building and those are the expensive items we can do that  monday night yeah but that is also in that one point two still said this has minus one point two million from the first number so it includes the eight hundred thousand that we discussed plus an additional six hundred i don't know that it would be if we as we know more about the building will have more options for ways to  not willing to take away some things right and i think that as we come to those i think we know from that first eight hundred what you're thinking so i think we know that there is two hundred of that that you would say no you like a lot of so there's areas now that are estimates sometimes when people put estimates of contract here may be a little bit conservative so we feel is perhaps a little bit of conservatism in some of the numbers things that are flexible are how much furniture gets purchased so there's there's a number in there right now that buys all the furniture for the entire building but there's a lot of furniture that we're looking to reuse and a lot of elements that will reduce that cost but it hasn't that number has come down yet as a result so we feel there are items there that we can work on to help bring that cost down that are structural integrity you know and don't sacrifice environmental quality etc if i think what i heard you say is that as you refine the design process you're going to find money you're going to find some money that we don't need to we don't need to spend that and that push comes to shove worst case we don't buy some furniture at the far end this is stay within our numbers but but if the library raises eight hundred thousand and twenty one million is a reasonable number to target is that is that a reasonable statement i just made i want i want th used to be long i mean i was in hotel vermont when the ceiling came down ok so i just i don't want corners to be cut right where we're really making foolish decisions here and where we're giving people a green light really short which shouldn't be short changed estimate typically higher than it will be when you when you're really refine it if they're asked me or if there are if there are good estimator that and so i just see twenty one million as a as a pretty pretty good target and you all seem comfortable with that if the library raises a hundred i think if it's a matter of can we get there or not i i feel that there is a way we can get there oh i would suggest that we give them the go ahead to target twenty one million and see what refinements come in over the next few weeks and see exactly if we can be more specific on what got us to the twenty one million and then see if we're ready to go with that number and if we think we are then we then we let the school board know and we go for it and if we're still uncomfortable then we're not going to make the november ballot and so be i have one thing it's relating to the purchase  way to i don't know what the costs of those are right but they're all on school property or a lot of it is and if you just don't build as many parking spaces over there but there they are t them i think yeah i think all of the spaces that are on the site that if we can get the maximum amount of spaces i believe that they will be used pretty happily  especially given the public input we've received today it would be great not to have to lease any spaces the zoning ordinance does require us to lease spaces were able to reduce the phone number by twenty five percent through  installing bicycle racks which is great and and there are exemptions for other things but we don't qualify for them the way they're written today and we'll keep looking at t clarify yes need cost if it would because i know you're saying that twenty one million in the hopes that the library would raise the eight hundred thousand but when we have to go to the voters with the twenty one point eight into the congress not to exceed this number but the conversation with the public hears these are the funding pieces and are anticipating her and they have great confidence in being able to raise eight time any other comments about that piece or any comments from the public ye i'm i'm are calling is still for you guys remember i'm one of the library board members and i'm on the design committee and i guess i tend to wear a lot of hats on our work when the conversation about the amount of money that the library is at least anticipating raising we need to understand are you guys need to understand what that means exactly the the eight hundred thousand estimate that we've provided to you was the amount of money that the consultant that we hired anticipated that we could raise locally from sources within four mont s what she was not retained to do and what she is yet to provide any input on and i don't know if she will is the amount of money that the library can raise through other sources and you sort of the talk about this grant th money from private sources from private foundations so i spent a little time in a if you wouldn't mind i just like the hands of you guys this is a actually just a small piece of a chart that one of the national library organizations put together that identifies grants that have been made to nothing but libraries around the country the number of grants the total dollar amount that the that have been provided and as you can see over the course of the last another twelve years the grants of total somewhere in the neighborhood of three point seven billion dollars a lot of these you'll see here are our multi source grants but some of them are single source grants and some of these even the single source grants or in the hundreds of millions of dollars when we have not even cracked the surface of this yet part of the reason that we haven't been able to proceed with this is because we haven't had a design to provide to whoever it is that would we would be asking to to make grants the good news is we've got someone on our board who does grant writing for a living and i guess we've got somebody i think  involved in grant writing i spoke to was margaret cross used to be our chair i spoke to her today and she has committed to turning every single stone over to find whatever money is out there  and as you can see at least based on what has happened is the rickly there's there's quite a bit of money out there so obviously we can't make any promises in terms of what we would be able to raise from these sources but we have yet to even broach this and i just thought that it was important for the for you all to understand that we're we're just getting started with this oh exactly i mean i look at somebody like sports heroes and humanitarians museum of pittsburgh one person without a passion for that they put in six million bucks when he's out there when he's out there we just have to go get  and you know as far as this building and whether to build just the library or build a city hall with a library i've been at this for for yourself i guess the understanding was that this library is going to want to being the keystone of market street it was going to be the thing that sort of hit off what was what was going to happen in terms of the development over there and in terms of the t financing and the kind of businesses that we hopefully like to attract to the area and which will in turn i guess have an impact on what the property values are going to being and how this thing will want to be able to pay for itself  i just think that to the extent that we really stick with the with the wow factor as you know close as we can get to it we're going to have a much better shot of making this whole thing happen as opposed to cutting corners and trying to you know do it on the on the cheap so i what i'll say is we are committed to bore at least the the market in as committed to putting in the time and effort to pursue this i have to confess i have not brought this to the attention of the full board i was out on vacation i just got back and i heard what was going on and i know the timetable short so i wanted to come in here and talk to you guys but i just hope we can keep this is part of your your conversation thank you this is some a lot of work and it's hopeful and i wonder if we bond and we build it you can apply for money to pay back the city for the fine you know i mean not i don't know how that works so that would be important i guess consideration when you do it could we approve the design then go up for these grants and i just wanted to make a second pitch for a city or city the city hall and i also want to clarify did the library include the auditorium yes because i think it's equally great a magnet for a city center as a library i especially have been thinking about this after knowing how many people voted early and i think a lot of them voted early by coming here don i were here i can i ask in fact i would be more than a majority as opposed to the mail business  and then i looked at the city clerk's page on the website and so they're in charge of land records that brings the amount of people not just  residents elections in voting marriage licenses dog and cat licenses vital records public street use permits where you coming  also you can come in and pay your real estate taxes i think a lot of people do that d m v temporary registration and i know this personally green mountain pass dollars a piece if you forget how old you are but it gets you in all state parks free parking down on the waterfront also and one thing i learned is they'll do free loaner notar services at the city clerk's office for no more than three signatures at a time but that's a fabulous service that i know about so anyway i really think and that doesn't consider the i just think and i still say there's a lot of energy but i just think all of that and they're not all the same people that are coming in for the city hall functions and the library functions or coming in at the same time so in terms of an economic engine for a city center i just think i encourage you to think long and hard about excluding city hall from this building because having it there to me is really going to help with development sales taxes meals and rooms taxes are going to be placed in people come in and any other comments from ye is relatively speaking not that much more and if this is going to be the heart of our city then i think that we need to have the city hall i would repeat again what i said when i was here a couple of weeks ago i haven't discussed this with our friends in recreation and parks but i'm wondering for based on the description that i've heard in this room if we need to call that space something other than the senior center or it needs to have something that says it's going to be have a bigger use at a great discussion with karen in the parking lot about senior centers in her image of that in it's sort of help to me to reshape my concept of what this might look like but i do think it's going to have broader use than just a senior center and until the public gets educated the way karen educated me i'm not sure that they will embrace that concept and so i think that we need to think about maybe something it's a little more descriptive for that space than senior center because i think people will think of it as the way the senior center is in this room rather than the larger concept the senior center so i would lobby for  library multigenerational activity center city city hall all in that building so i think i think it one point barb we're calling it the community center which has a certainly a broader context nothing something that embraces that it is going to be a place where lots of us can hang out and do wonderful things we had said several meetings back that we weren't going to call the senior center would come up with another one million dollars if so if the library raised eight hundred thousand so maybe we need to say it's twenty one eight and it will is your target going on the premise that they raised to zero and if they raise it's just a just a number on paper but i guess we can't go on the presumption they're going to raise eight hundred thousand bucks so if your third third column is twenty one eight eight eight seven to go around down to twenty one eight maybe that has to be your target not going on the premise that he hundred thousand is coming from the libraries that make sense or can you target twenty one people there while they're actually going to target you know i mean there's two different issues here there's one is the cost of the the cost of the total cost is what we're talking about here how you raise the money for that is a separate discussion so the eight hundred thousand is the how you raise the money piece it's  to the voters here that's what we're tired of that's what their target and how you pay for that is another matter and that that matter is not on the ballot but it is certainly in the educational materials you provide to the public is is the council comfortable with the twenty one point the number of such that we continue to design to the plan change the footprint enough for the city hall to be able to say there are people we discern from the discussion the other night that what you wanted us to come back with was the library a clarity is important so seeing the breakdown as it is with for going with twenty one it is less than three million dollars difference to have all three as opposed to the library alone but their target number for the three i really see that as a leg i can stand with the voters to explain why i would put forward the three because we are maximizing the use of a very expensive piece of land and as we have residents articulating is something as i argued for years this that i think that the city center is really important for our identity for our development of our city center to really bring the center of gravity their people their activities their restaurants there we saw a large turnout at the city center park grand opening  and so if there were a ten million dollar gap i would have a much harder time to explain to the voters with less than three million dollars i feel that i am comfortable with going forward and we're going to meet the fourth then maybe by the time we get to the fourth which is what three weeks down the line you'll either come back and say we're good at twenty one eight or g as we've refined this you could be a little bit less and that the good thing i'm saying we can't we're not going to nail number down tonight or the twentieth we might be able to hopefully they will number down on the fourth but at that point if we're not comfortable with it and if we still feel we have a ways to go we can we can we can push the boat off because as you said all we're doing is pushing what are those million so the landslide alright and the fund and then the cost of the building right at those three separate now you know that the cost of the building would not be on read it you need you will need to have a public hearing on the question that's warned it takes us approximately seventeen days to warn a public hearing so that's a process question and we can talk about it but i'm have that i think the language and i'm not injured but that the legislation basically requires that the public has an opportunity to comment on the question in a public hearing that's been properly wind which is numbers and if that doesn't work then we're pushing it out further and that's not the end of the world and it didn't require a lot of work and they did provide and work hard to get that passed and that wasn't in my mind a surprisingly strong vote so that tells me that if he can make the case clearly i think we can make the case to the public and that they will support this i mean i could be wrong but i'm willing to try that i fiddled around with the library and city center i mean i totally agree with you meghan that i saw this is the centerpiece of city center that's why we would call it the city center and across from the wall right versus really with that nice little park that we just cut the ribbon to so you know i'm willing to go out on a limb i mean i've been defeated before on issues but we won't get it unless we ask but it will require significant conversations and you know good materials and really being able to talk to that part of the points and engage the cover that reserve fund that we would have to increase and so just like the pennies for pads where it's thirty dollars a year on average right i said where's your you know where's pinch point and years this is the future of our community and i think you know we want the best community possible that's going to continue to attract people to live here especially families moving in with kids and living here bringing up their kids in our great schools and this is going to be this is really going to be a critical piece of the future of self reliant and i think it's essential we're going to and we can and i think we can we can explain that to people and pull it off and i think we need to so that's that's well we could end up in a really nice pool is we need to do library and i duly recognize it and have for years very you are out of the school in your own space know which is the advantage you may not be in the best location ever but it's sort of better than where you were before ok spending twenty million dollars for a library plus city hall plus you know senior center is a huge amount of money and not to be taken lightly it's a long term bond just because you can't spend the money doesn't mean that you should and fourth i don't think that that really is the best location for the library and we can look at other libraries around children county and you can say but burlington is right downtown will theirs was built in one thousand eight or whatever it was right and they built a nice addition on the end because they needed that because they were growing we don't have a spot yet city center to me and we can argue back and forth about whether that act will act as an anchor or not bring business into some center or not we're to find it a city center or not to me it's a library wherever you build it people are going to go there and i think there should be somewhere where it has more natural space immediately adjacent to it in a vision that's a little bit bigger than just library so there has got to be other land in this city that is less expensive that we may own ourselves right that would present a much nicer cheaper opportunity and fulfill our needs and i just don't i think there's there's too much complexity with the school board m o you and then having to swap this place out and then duplicate capacity that you already have i can't sell that to a voter if you said we're going to build a library you know up near zero creek or something that was just you know safe and it's going to be freestanding and it's it's going to be one of a kind by self and it was let's say it was ten million dollars right then i would say that sounds like a great a you may argue about the location it's not on the bus lines nine season but whatever ok but when you present that to somebody and you say and it's going to be like this right there that's easier for them to swallow you know when you save twenty thirty years six to ten million dollars whatever it is when we presented the idea of building a brand new police station for six million dollars at the wheeler property right the voters turned it down flatly for a number of reasons but one of which i think is they don't want to spend six million dollars on a police facility on private land like that they spent more you know they actually spent less when the went down they spent less or i don't think so i think it was seven to eight million  yeah but the point is right that they didn't feel like i think they wanted to turn that way and over to that type of function you know if you were to say you wanted to put a library you know that could be a different conversation but that's not what i'm suggesting i'm just saying that there's got to be other way and in this city that's cheaper presents a better scenario for how to build this and so it to the public that's what i'm that's what i'm saying so but i guess i would women were milton's library is that those three communities their libraries are in the center of their town and they have to have a center of a town already created but if they're often in jason to the city office buildings because they already have the know i think well it's how the community involved but i think there was a reasoning behind having the library which is the public building in the center of town because that was a little easier to get to for lots of people and it was a gathering pick place in the community place so it it it created that sense of community which is really what this community is struggling with we have lots of different  distinct neighborhood neighborhoods that act as communities but then we don't have a center and that's what we're looking for and and i just think tim it's critical even though the land is expensive  you know i i think the positive aspect of having that centralized is is convincing to me and i think and i hope it will be convincing to the rest of the for the majority of our residents that that does make sense that putting it out it will creak or you know  some piece of property we own somewhere just because we own it in its you know only value to one hundred thousand bucks or twenty thousand dollars is is good planning good long term  planning i don't think it is but the but we can you know i appreciate your difference of opinion i just see it and see enough other communities that i think it challenges what you're saying is just put it somewhere where the city center together and here we are on the cusp and it's normal to feel nervous this is a big jump but i think we have to trust that we have at least two three generations who have been working first piece of a city center project and it was basically going to be we were talking about the fact point we said we're going to have it done by two thousand and one of the decade behind already but i believe we can either settle for some just such time such time when only so many cars can ride out there grows and who knows what the future is going to be so i think that building the future around cars is a mistake i'm going to say or how they are that we are on a path for our own destruction and we have to really think that this is going to happen and we have to think that way i mean i'm not you know in that big think tank thinking about all these solutions like ilan must  just maybe is that you will come i'm not saying anybody should do anything i'm saying that we have to think about where we've come from and where we're going and i think that where we've come from is since we that's something we are prepared to do that i don't i haven't i don't think we need to go too far on that this evening if you will if you would like i can give a briefing on what i learned yesterday and where we might be at with it or you can talk about where you're at in negotiations and then i'll talk about alternatives but i don't think it's something that i don't think it's something i think we're digging deep on the city center and the community building let's let's get significantly through that before we you know for we really were not trying to get this on the november ballot or anything so this is something that their new economic development committee can't really think about to some time will be back next week we're nailing down the numbers we're getting a refinement on the numbers we're looking at an alternative that would probably eliminate the tear down the entire building which of the building out in front of ok that entire garage building and building a new front for that that meets the front at least meeting code requirements  possibly providing office space for the staff as well it's possible that the cost of new construction may be equal to or less then trying to renovate the old building i been in the fuel business for decades and understand how to do that so we would get a full environmental assessment of the property before before moving forward with a final negotiations with them getting a refinement on some of the other costs as well the concrete and a couple or three things so that if i remember correctly the dimmer square deep drilled assessment of the soils to determine whether any of the previous tanks because you know they go through durations of tanks right head had leaked anything that would be on their property so so there are some really concrete things that have to be acreage that he wanted to near the garage than to just and so he had to reduce his design because of that from the last thing i heard so yeah they ran into some real soil issues in that project for them is that the sell purchaser only negotiated frankly if we don't purchase or probably more likely to lease the project the property and they want to develop it they're going to have to do the assessment somebody's got to do the assessment anyway no anybody is going to want to clean site so they're going to need to do that but we would negotiate them so we do it you know it's a it's been an oil company and a conversation with tony i said so what's your soil like he said we taking care of that many years ago that doesn't mean that we can't we don't have to do our due diligence but but i think he is relatively confident that this oil is his   some of you know i'm on the i'm on the board and have been for twenty one years of the parks getting associations getting links and and we were oh maybe seven or eight years ago six years ago we had a real problematic city manager at that time some of you may remember and and we were going to put a central entrance on the two rinks to complete the project as we had envisioned it many years ago and and and unfortunately and i think irresponsibly that city manager wouldn't wouldn't sign the permits necessary after we'd spent fifty to sixty thousand dollars on the design and he wouldn't do it he didn't want he didn't believe in dorset park skating association was just plain stupid and so we never did that we now are reasonably close to paying off our debt and we're revisiting the central entrance and i think there's a reasonable chance we're going to proceed with that in the next short period of time year two years and we could and we discussed this last evening at our board meeting just because we got to thinking instead of one story we could go two stories and we could put the south burlington recreation department on that second story and we could and we could put a dome out the back of the rinks we would have to add parking but there's a terrific benefits benefits are that is the core of our recreational activities in town already which is a great thing with a central entrance we're going to expand it food service so people who are participating in activities could then even later in the evening get get a bite to eat because we'll have an expanded cafeteria where i think i think about like really cities think in sixty to seventy seventy five eighty seats for a new cafeteria expanded pro shop where people could buy odds and ends and so that becomes an option and i think we need to take a look at the downside is what might it cost for a second story on how we can go forward from there we certainly got the space and and we own the land and and so i think it becomes a potentially viable option for consideration before we before we go forward with anything it just puts the other piece in the mix and i think those are the only two logical sites on the race will there be other use of the bubble and in constraints well with the bubble be with the wreck departments overall just not dorset participating association and indeed it would encompass all the things exactly what we're talking about just a different place i think it's worthy of discussion consideration and especially we need to know what the tax loss is t and to quote somebody on our board yesterday they've been messing around effort two years and hasn't gone anywhere we're not thinking about it at the moment if somebody decides you know there's a private tornado in there is a private group that is interested in the same type of arrangement with the city as the ranks which is the city provides the land and the private group fundraisers for a dome over the soccer field so it would be a full not in new england but in northern climates very much so and that's not in the reform in the refined formats that are much more energy efficient safer more practical etc these days there are multiple year over tennis courts and i have one down at my house not many many years ok i think we're ready to move on to items seven which is the other business and we haven't worn yet i have a copy of the warrant going around just so you can look at it and if approved i have the official signatures that we mainly wanted to process this so that we could do the school district transfer tax money on friday and martha's saw several other things just to add in that would be appropriate to pay at the same time but the major one of course can we now have a possible executive session to discuss the negotiating or securing a real estate purchase or lease options in heaven and on and paul  to it to a couple of questions pertaining to both the library purchase and sale agreement and also the recreation center discussion those are both real estate related issues and therefore eligible for executive session