our next case is in grade two or cinco nineteen dash for fifty three the claim adventure and properly understood is directed to are approved method of to delivering transit time information rather than any abstract idea of determining that trying to time from a so you would agree that claim to be directed to looking up transit times we agree that claim three recites the step of looking transit time  n why is that not abstract well that is not the invention during the prosecution in the rejection it was agreed that that was a prior art stuff the transit time we agree that looking up or cause delay in the transit time information can be an abstract idea for example one could claim for limitations that appear later in the claim so if the claim three for example resorted a method of providing transit time information analysis you look at the invention as it is flames and what the inventors claim to have contributed it's hard to it's hard to to risk to claim anything without having some pred tory steps or some predicate story acknowledged prior art limitations and i think the key of course is to identify what is the abstract idea and that's a difficult thing to do that's why i think i  contrast claim three as it is in the field with the one that i just recently did which would be an example and i think that's very close to the example of our clients and what the invention is the there is no claim and never has been any in any of the claims starting from the original claims and improve method of calculating that transit time information the utilizes a web services interface that is part of an online logistic system which receives requests from an a a r p system processes those requests looking up front it's a time information is a to base and then returning a response back to the e r p system is the online logistic system which has that web services interfa contrasts with the conventional method of using a server that's the classic alice said this is something which is conventional you do it on the internet we are computer that's correct but we don't do that we have a very specific or minute just  said web services interface requiring that web service request to the client credential parameter which is different than any primitive used by the basic h t t p authentication so that makes it clear that this is not a traditional web server that uses h t t p were delivering the transit time information that web services interface has to receive a web service request from an e r pieces and then return the answer to that re either by calling or perhaps looking it up on a website and getting that information and then in putting that into the g r p system this system allows that to occur automatically five virtue of these web s requests so there's an advantage that it's does not require human interaction there's a vantage that happens instantaneously there's an advantage that the information relating to the transit time information does of this is even though i hope i've explained that to your satisfaction it's not quite that easy to do and practice web services alone developed in approximately two thousand and  example what you have to provide for that web services interface and it's in the appendix to the application contain an example of a web services interface with the code it's a related transit time information you can use web services for you know movie schedules all kinds of information that would require a slightly different interface in terms of the fields in the formats of the information that's being exchanged now just because of the web services were previously known in prior heart does not mean that they were well known meeting in convention and i don't know where you're going to rebuttal time you can continue you can the same idea as me calling someone up and saying how long is it going to take to send a shipment from chicago to new york person looking up the answer in a book and giving me the response that's all the claim also looking at transit time using different carrier database and web services in your face you know different computer components or interfaces does that change your view no there it's right to do something a know because it's just it's merely the the computer here is merely the tool used to implement the abstract ideas you know and in my example the tools to implement the abstract idea would be a telephone  web services interface something that was pretty novel and there are some difficulties that come with inventing this particular claim to imagine how do you respond to that other words you know if there was some technical ingenuity implementation i understand that argument but i think that the specification contradicts that argument specifically if you look at appendix page one hundred and six of the specification it says  that the use of a web services interface according to the preferred embodiments makes the support requirements rather minimal the shipper system merely needs to be able to make the appropriate web service calls to use maybe any of the remote procedure calls already known to those in the art or maybe some other type of call so if this was such a novel and difficult system to implement you would expect something other than that statement in the specification it that this is the support i think they're there allegation is that providing transit time information via web services interface is quicker or more efficient than how it was provided in the past and simply automating something or making something more efficient is not enough to get around one on one to the i mean in itself is part of the abstract idea is that which are saying no i think oh i think that the abstract idea is just the idea of providing the transit time information upon request and i'm saying that in the steps you analysis it's the use of the web services interfaces merely the use of conventional technology and their goal here and i think the states and their grief was the use of the web services technology w would improve the speed of providing this information and that's that's not just saying getting improved speed or efficiency of prime information is not enough to get around one on one because otherwise  do that it's not even known to do that what do web services interface is not correct to look at knowledge we had to develop it and its attacks as the appendix to the application it says that any any computer system want to interact with this interface this is how you interact with it so this is like i've given you a keyhole any key you provided that fits the keyhole would work we don't care  this is how we define it ok so it's not conventional in that sense there's no web services interface that has ever existed for this application also claims to not re for example a method simply a method for providing transit time information which is does not require human interaction it doesn't say that it's more specific than that and so it's not an abstract ideal because you can only in french this claim by doing the very specific steps that are reciting in the clintons there's no protection of any algorithm there's no protection of any consolation of the transit time information what is being protected by the claim is this specific way of it of attaining these these advantages  one point i also wanted to say on the reliance on conventional technology that for face the argument that begs the question that's raised was raising bergheim or what's the difference between being prior art and being well known routine and conventional they are not the same has to be something more than prior art now when a technology gets introduced in this case web services and it's in the process of being standardised you'll notice that the appendix b of that appears from the board is stated after our priority date when it's that rush what you have here is a group of inventors who are utilizing those new technologies for a new application and there is a single application that is here which is providing transit time information and that also falls under step t jurisprudence on this particular standard but we should make clear and i hope for the court does in this case that it's not really conventional simply because it exists and it's been standardized to try to encourage