something nice does not mean that they're evil and they've violated some law or constitutional rule if they don't do it so tell me what rule requires them to tell a person is not a cons record on the record information over the telephone or through a web site well your honor i think when when when an agency sets up procedures its own internal procedures that are designed to fax or protect manual i seem to recall that that manuals don't impose legal obligations on them so if they have some public information construct and they want to put the information now and they don't do it in step in between anything there is no internal climb relationship as far as their record shows so they're not going to get information to just any old person let's say they're not giving out information then you can you know a person who calls in on the telephone and they don't know that r one hundred point twenty three sticks in my mind i'll check it that provides that hearings are generally open to the public unless there's a reason to close them and here there were none of the reasons and you write it in that regulation existed but we don't know the hearing was that's part when i was a district judge there was a deputy clerk who didn't like lawyers and i was one of our locations they would call and ask for some piece of information that was perfectly appropriate for them to ask for it was public information it didn't matter if they were somebodies lawyer the man in the moon there they're entitled and she'd say we don't want to be bothered on the phone if you want to see if you want to know that you can come in and look in file yourself and even if she knew it she wouldn't or death of a spouse childless so it's difficult for me to failing to give some information we're telling as serious as the death of my child secret and that is the only information if i hear you just struggling with looking through some concepts if what you basically i mean is the bottom line you do think this was arbitrary but this thing is labeled secret and they won't put it on their maggi public's help and they won't give it out over the phone what does that come from how does this get labeled secret swooper mentioned in this case can't go dialing up the number of putting in information will will provide it is in fact true that you can't do that with this particular a number is that not right i'm not sure if at that point you could know he could not hold it this is what he represented but i'm not sure that at that point out the immigration court has a toll free number that you can call to obtain that information is the quarter number that i am as in the service these are not the same and the immigration court these are not the same agencies at that point did not attempt to call the eight hundred number moment i want to know where in the record it says that secret that might be something where the clerk would say are you the attorney of record if what he's asking for is for information that's public even about a secret case then i don't see what he would need to be the lawyer for together it seems like since the hearing itself is public even if it's a secret case that i don't understand why the information about when and where that hearing is a secret in the information telephone i did not prejudice the petition as much in as much as there are two things that are there first petitioner received notice of the cold at the point position as counsel had then had taken the case several days before had not properly following thing with the court to say that this person was the attorney of record to receive such information the fact that that's not something unique to the immigration court and the fact the council did not properly provide the court with the g twenty eight seems to be the sticking point the clerk in not inform the petitioner that opposition is counsel of the hearing sixty two the person shall have the privilege of being represented at no expense to the government by such counsel and this to this is an interference with those that have privilege of being represented by