bad and it's also them or only does does not apply but if you read the case hope i'm pronouncing that right they'd put in a maroney test which is word for word the same as the beard test basically is that to be an equivalent report it has to be a return under the beard test or some some variant of the beard test is that right no d i think it's the beard says there's a plan not to not a tax return we're talking about an equivalent report of course but if that doesn't that imply that there's a difference between a return and an equivalent report otherwise why would congress have used the two different words i think well  st of all i don't think it's not exactly because st i think congress use it to somebody caught of by beard but it's sort of doesn't make sense at all logically to say we're going t we say it is a return then we're going to argue well the beer test only applies to returns of course it's only returned as the beard has said it was a return and if you look at the way the court discusses it in cod they don't make that distinction they they say the same thing i'm saying that there's the wording in there they have the moroni test and once the passes are fits the moroni test now is called a return and i just don't think that's too fine distinction now in i'm not arguing i'm not going to try and persuade the panel that a court and cod was illogical or i'm not in a try and say that overrule these tests because obviously it doesn't because cod used it so i'm going to take back something i said in the opening statement opening brief and that was i said we were in the minority but if you consider cod with all the all of which used three a valuation is like maroney and all which were state statutes that were very close they were you know they said if the i r s says you must send a report you must send  a you know you'll get in trouble you're only getting some criminal records so i'm just saying they prior bad and there's no reason not to use them just thought it was not fair to the taxpayer to take this thing you'll get from the ira i reckon to know that you're going to send it to your state tax agency and that's congress maybe it's a bad the written statute but they use the word equivalent the hanging paragraph and it doesn't say equivalent in verbiage or doesn't it just leaves that equivalent there for us all to argue about well i would say in this case with the burger because it's not equivalent if you look up the word equivalent in the dictionary it's a similar in  effect well but isn't it similar in effect in that it's telling the f t p that hey the federal government is said by federal returns were wrong maybe my state returns were wrong too so maybe they return should be adjusted isn't that pretty much equivalent to saying hey my return is wrong it is not like a return in so that your honor that's one way it is similar in effect but is this summer in a very huge way that impacts my client and that is let's say the real world everyone knows you have to file a state tax return and when you don't you know you're doing something wrong you're probably evading taxes and even in seal be they mention one of the reasons for  i kind of didn't know this or that i don't do my taxes i didn't know that either so i think again the argument is is that really a culpability kind of a standard or are we supposed to compare taxpayers based on whose behavior is worse who had bore reason to do the thing they did do is that is that what the statute requires as well when you use the word equivalent that can be put in the argument and again i'm not i don't think myself or the court policy i know i'm asking you we're going to rush and this is a fairly simple requirement i realize that you wanted to be not quite so but you know i mean i don't think i need to care about culpability at this i may have my own opinion about it which is neither  remains the only place that has disappeared as the hanging paragraph said well you can't use it in the debtor's favor to say a late returns i don't think the beard test even was meant to do that but other than that there there is dahmer it's not  it's not completely returned but even then it doesn't matter because addition of the word revelation a government report or noted contemplated a report that is required under the r appeal are very similar to those arguments previously rejected in the th circuit and the decision of maryland versus yacht every big city court within the th circuit to address the issue  categories a rope a return a bankruptcy return and an equivalent report when then he also says the beard test is philip likable well then how would the beard as was not but he's reporter and i don't disagree absolutely we'll apply it now again if i mean we were sitting here and there was no prior rulings i probably would go along with the argument that this  california return has a lot of equivalence fees that's for sure and you don't have to sign it but you go to jail if you don't and that you do have to verify whether you think that information's correct so there's a lot of equivalency well we don't depend on andrew smith's opinion this very same evaluation is done prior babsy and there's no reason too ignore those decisions and they all take state  requirements that you must forward the i r s report and they all find they don't want to do it because it's too onerous and it goes against the prejudice or presumption that we're going to favor the debtor because in this case from the there is no th circuit ruling anybody again i guess i won't go on and on about valuation i'm just saying the majority looking at these exact type valuations under into play the only way the statute sort of abrogates this beard is on the deal about late reports where debtors use the fact of a late report and said well it's an equivalent