ok the subcommittee will come to order and the chair will ask that all member staff and everyone turn electronic devices off or on vibrate the subcommittee is meeting today to receive testimony regarding the new pilot flight duty time rule the chair will give a brief opening statement will call on the ranking member mr p try to give his opening statement and then we will go to our witnesses let me  say that timing is everything around here and we anticipate that we will have at least one vote about eleven fifteen so hopefully we'll get through our opening statements a requiring minimum rest periods in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine the n t s b issued three recommendations to the secretary of transportation calling for research education and revisions to existing regulations these in air carrier accidents a consensus could not be reached between the stakeholders on how the f a a should revise its regulations last year the tragic accident of continental connection flight thirty four o seven revealed th fatigue very likely had an effect on pilot performance and at the time the airline was not addressing fatigue for pilots who commute from other cities as the captain and first officer did in this tragic accident in addition the accident raised questions regarding the adequacy of the f a s current pilot flight and duty time rules i am pleased that after we held a hearing the subcommittee held a hearing on aviation safety and a roundtable  pilot workforce issues and promised and reducing legislation requiring the f a a to act the secretary of transportation secretary la hood and administrator babbitt identified pilot fatigue as a top priority during the agency's call to action to enhance airline safety at the time i applauded and administrator babbitt for undertaking an expedited review of flight and duty time rules i am pleased he has followed through on his commitment to bring the stakeholders together and update the f a a as flight and duty time regulations taking into account fatigue science and other factors that can affect pilot alertness judgment and performance while the f a a was working through its process the house pass bipartisan legislation which requires the f a a to update and implement new flight and duty time rules for pilots within one year the airline safety and federal aviation administration extension act of two thousand and ten was signed into law and ten this is the strongest aviation safety bill in decades we can all be proud of this significant accomplishment and i want to acknowledge the unwavering support of the families of continental connection flight thirty four zero seven some of which are here with us today who continue to engage and be proactive on this issue the law we passed in august requires the f a a to update and implement new pilot flight and duty time rules within one year taking into account scientific research further it directs the f a a to require air carriers within ninety days to create fatigue risk management systems to proactively mitigate pilot fatigue to address the issue of commuting we required the f a a to contract with the national academy of science to study its impact on safety so the f a a can utilize the findings in its final rule making on september fourteenth the f a a issued a notice of propose rule making on flight crew member duty and rest armand's consistent with the law i commend the f a a for taking this important first step i am also encouraged that the proposed rule recognizes that the time spent commuting is the time spent commuting to work is not rest that it is in fact time spent commuting it is not rest i look forward to hearing the agency's plan for staying on track to finalize the rule by august one thousand and eleven as congress directed and receiving testimony from other witnesses as well before i recognize mr p drive for his opening statement i ask unanimous consent to allow two weeks for all members to revise and extend the remarks and to permit the summation of additional statements and materials by members and witnesses without objection so ordered the chair at this time recognizes the ranking member mr peet right thank you very much mr chairman and before i give my sort of formal this congress of rumors floating around are true that we will adjourn october first rather than the eighth and i really want to and you know if there is a science committee congress is on the situation you may well be the chairman of that rather than of this particular subcommittee i just want to take a minute to say how much i have enjoyed working with you over the last several congresses and well we've obviously come to things with different perspectives we've tried to make that add to the value of our work product rather than getting something hearings on a series of roundtable discussions under your chairmanship active aggressive oversight of the next gen process which is much needed a pilot safety bill raising pilot mandatory retirement age sixty five and moving the national transportation safety board reauthorization through our committee so you can be proud of your keep and it's certainly been my pleasure to have the opportunity to serve as your ranking minority member let me the gentleman would yield let me thank you for your kind words and the accomplishments that we have had in this subcommittee would not have been possible without the bipartisan cooperation  regardless of what i may or may not be doing with the science committee but i have always enjoyed working with you this committee has a reputation as everyone knows of being bipartisan and i don't think that there are any two members on either side of the aisle that have worked better together closely together than mr p try and i and i i've enjoyed working with you and i'm going to continue to work with you for hopefully many years in the future thank you thank you and thank you for calling this important hearing on proposed rule making it on your light pilot flight and duty time regulations as you pointed out in your statement on february twelfth two thousand nine hundred fifty people tragically lost their lives when colgan air flight thirty four o seven doing business as no connect crashed outside of buffalo new york although the national transportation safety board investigation report did not attribute the cause of the accident investigation uncovered disturbing commuting practices sometimes employed within the industry and reignited interest about the impact of fatigue on aviation safety in the aftermath of the accident the subcommittee acted in a bipartisan fashion to draft legislation to address safety issues arising out of flight thirty four of the accident of flight thirty four seven and of course we in the senate were assisted in  their accepting and doing something about this problem the house and senate passed the safety legislation in july it was signed into law the f a a is now implementing the provisions of the bill including provisions consistent with the f a a as i'm going effort to update airline pilot flight and duty time regulations spend far too long since agency has updated the airline flight and duty regulations and i applaud the agency's effort to address this important issue the challenge before the agency will be to strike the right balance in achieving a truth safety been a benefit for a dynamic aviation industry the goal of this rule making is to improve safety and that most future by careful consideration of all known factors including the cause of its heat before the flight thirty four zero seven x and pilot commuting was a practice in the airline industry that went largely unnoticed by the public vast majority of pilots responsibly manage their commuting to work clearly commuting is a part of lifestyle choice for airline pilots and for those in many other professions it's a part of two it two job families and a ll of us are familiar with however if we agree that irresponsible commuting is a causal factor in fatigue then the practice of commuting deserves a look i'm interested to hear from the f a a and the other witnesses the extent to which the aviation rulemaking committee came to any meaningful recommendations on commuting practices within the industry in addition i am interested to hear from the f a a how the proposed rule specifically addresses risk posed by irresponsible community was far too soon to have a comprehensive analysis of the proposed rule it was published in only two days ago i'm interested in hearing from the witnesses their initial reactions to the agency's proposals and would like to hear from the witnesses ideas for how to improve the rules and effectively addressing fatigue issues thank you all for being here today and for participating and look forward to your testimony i think the ranking member for his opening statement remarks and now the chair will recognize the gentle lady from texas miss johnson for an opening statement her remarks that she made thank you very much mr chairman and let me say that it is certainly been my pleasure for both of you to be the leaders of this committee it is been a rather delightful experience to have both of you and i know that aviation safety oversight is one of the core responsibilities of this subcommittee and i commend you for your focus on ensuring that the f a a their lands the pilots and inspectors all do their part to meet and maintain high safety standards today's hearing focuses on a specific and critical of the issues the ninety ninety eight do share some concerns with pilots in my district in particular that while the preamble of the rule making a knowledge is a time on task is a major factor the pretty the rule making allows for an increase of time on task and a majority of scenarios i look forward to hearing what eyewitnesses have to say on the proposal any new suggestions they might have for us so i thank you mr chairman and i ranking m her service and contribution that she makes to the subcommittee chair at this time will recognize our witnesses and i will introduce the panel the honorable margaret gilligan who is the associate administrator for aviation safety with the international mr stephen altman who is the president of the cargo airline association mr a oakley brooks president on national air carriers association and mr thomas hendricks the vice president operations and testimony so that we allow enough time for questions and as i said we expect to be interrupted here very shortly but i hope to get to some of the witnesses for let me before i call on the honorable margaret  i will note that and i've said many times in the subcommittee that oftentimes the f a a acts only after this subcommittee holds hearings roundtables and brings issues to the forefront as i mentioned in our my opening statement we held the safety hearings we've held roundtables on the issue of fatigue and this issue in the role making has been pending for too long the microphone closer please better thank you for inviting me to appear before you this morning to discuss the efforts to mitigate the impact of pilot fatigue in order to enhance aviation safety fatigue related issues have been the highest priority for secretary la hood and administrator babbitt and with their strong support as well as employee input from the aviation and scientific communities last week at a publisher notice of proposed rule making the changes the current flight and duty regulations the proposal w scientifically based regulatory approach for all part one twenty one operators unlike the existing requirements which limit flight hours and require rest periods across the board the proposed regulations vary the requirements depending on the nature of the operations conducted during the flight and duty period as this chart illustrates which we have up on the wall the hours of duty permitted will depend on a number of factors including the number of segments operated and at what time of day they're operated it just makes sense that a pilot would become more fatigue conducting multiple takeoffs and landings additionally if the operation crosses multiple time zones the resulting fits he could be compounded and so that should be a limiting factor and finally if the operation was conducted at night rather than during the day the duty period should be shortened to compensate for increased fatigue we think this very to pro choice is more tailored than the current one size fits all regulation and adjust appropriately based on the scientific factors we know can impact  also think it's important that pilots and airlines better understand those scientific factors because it may often be the case that pilots don't even recognize that they're fatigued the proposal would require that all part one twenty one pilots as well as individuals who schedule and manage those pilots receive initial training and annual recurrent training on fatigue this training with focus on how to recognize the symptoms of city and how to mitigate them the proposal clarifies that fatigue just like being sick or taking certain over the counter medications is related to the pilot's fitness for duty and it establishes that the responsibility for determining whether a pilot is fit is a shared responsibility first we propose of pilots be given additional time for rest at least nine hours after arriving at the rest location and then be able to report fit for duty before the flight departs we propose that each flight crew member will have to sign the flight release attesting to his or her fitness for that flight we propose to make it a company responsibility to know how the crew members get to work and to consider that in assigning schedules and finally we propose to make it incumbent on individuals working with the pilot to inform the airline if they believe the pilot is fatigued or otherwise unfit for that flight it is f a s responsibility to develop and implement a regulatory framework that ensures adequate rest for pilots it is the airline's responsibility to schedule its pilots in accordance with that framework and it is the pilot's responsibility to report for duty  fit condition to better ensure that all parties are accepting and performing those responsibilities the proposal contains an oversight provision we propose to require the carrier to compare its schedule to actual flight times every two months and report those results to the f a a based on this data if we see that a pilot is assigned a flight that is scheduled to last for example for five hours but the flight routinely lasts longer the airline must adjust its assignments to reflect the actual flight time for that flight in this way pilots cannot be working within the regulatory limits on paper but not in reality the airline scheduling reliability must be at ninety five percent overall and eighty percent for specific flight pairings or adjustments will have to be made we think this feature of the proposal is a good incentive to all the parties to live up to their shared responsibility aviation would not enjoy the safety record it has if the hard working professionals in both government and industry did not take our jobs very seriously i want to commend everyone who helped us shape this proposal many are members of this committee this panel today and i and i appreciate that we did they did not give up just because this was very hard to do i look forward to what i'm sure will be robust chairman costello ranking member dr members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to testify can i ask you to pull the microphone currently those microphones through that is that better to the rest of the witnesses would do the same thank you they're better yes better ok i'm are praising the presentation that i gave to the a b a rule making council last summer to sort of set the stage for you know everybody having equal knowledge about sleep science sleep obviously sustains performance and wellbeing we know that we experience that every day sleep tends to be consolidated late evening hours early morning hours and that consolidation is because of the circadian rhythm and body temperature performance and sleep propensity we hear about this as body temperature from around that night fall through the night sleep propensity grows the ability to fall asleep and stay asleep and performance deteriorates around six in the morning body temperature begins to rise rises across the day peaks in mid to late evening and performance ri up along with it this is very important in considering hours of service regulations because in the past these have not considered the circadian rhythm and performance sleep propensity and temperature if you want to see sort of what happens to a normal people normal person when sleep deprived you can basically bring them into the lab laboratory and sleep deprived them for long periods of time in this case it was eighty five hours which is a long time and you can see with the red line it's a linear decrease in performance over that seventy two hours inability to useful mental work but you can also see riding along that linear decline is a not the province of sleep loss to loan it is a combination of multiple factors it is three in particular sleep wake history that's time awake and sleep loss the circadian rhythm which i dust discussed time of day and very important work load which is time on task past complexity task intensity workload so these three things in the next slide and my last line this is experimental data showing the interaction of these three factors this is fifty normal volunteers brought into the laboratory and deprived of sleep for forty hours you can see overall from day one to day two there is a downward trend in performance overall you can also see that during the window of circadian low during the minimum of the circadian rhythm that performance degrades even more than it is simply because of time awake and if you look carefully and this i don't know if i can show this but this is a ten minute test and you can actually measure performance each minute and you can see time on effect over cannot even in the well rested condition and that is amplified by extended wakefulness and by being in the circadian low it is this complex interaction between time awake time of day cicada rhythm and workload that we are trying to manage to reduce the t risk to reduce the  and the the risk of air incident and accident and this is a focus of the current n p r m and the accompanying advisory circular on fatigue risk management thank you all very much and i'd be happy to entertain any comments and questions the chair thanks you now recognizes captain prater thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here today to present the views of the airline pilots association international i difficult to overstate the importance of combating pilot fatigue to help as nearly fifty three thousand members who fly for thirty eight airlines in the united states and canada airline pilots owe a debt of gratitude to this committee to you mr  chairman oberstar and the ranking members micah and pete tribe and every member of this subcommittee you have championed desperately needed improvements to our country's outdated and ineffective flight and duty time limits and minimum rest requirements your efforts came to fruition on august first when the president signed your bill h r fifty nine hundred into law this law played in the central role in last week's release of a notice of proposed rule making in addition alpha pilots applaud secretary of transportation ray la hood and f a a administrator babbitt this proposal would not exist without their leadership and commitment our union has long pursued modern science based flight and duty time and minimum rest regulations that would apply to all airline pilots regardless of the size of the equipment they fly or whether they carry cargo or passengers in two thousand and seven we created a blue ribbon panel on pilot fatigue to review the science recommend an action plan for the union in two thousand and nine alp adopted a landmark pilot fatigue policy last year we co chaired and were represented by seven pilots on the f a s flight and duty time limitations and rest requirement includes up a pilot safety experts from the range of pilot part one twenty one flying including regional domesticity international and cargo operations while also looks forward to submitting our full comments to the f a a i'd like to offer some initial observations about this proposal we are very encouraged by many aspects first the proposal appears to apply scientific principles and recognizes human physiological limitations with increased minimum rest periods and more reasonable duty days and it does recognize the effects of circadian rhythms on fatigue the proposal applies to all f a a are part one twenty one flying and would eliminate carve outs for supplemental operations it incorporates f a r part ninety one tag on our ferry flights within flight and duty time limitations the proposed rule requires fatigue education and training on a recurring basis at all airlines and provides for implementation of  risk management system the n p r m mandates that all flight crew members report rested and fit for duty and establishes that fitness for duty is a joint responsibility of the flight crew member and the airline the proposal requires airlines to accurately record and set scheduled flight and duty time periods based on actual operations and to make adjustments if unreliable scheduling is used it makes the decision to extend the duty period a joint responsibility of the pilot in command and the airline and it further limits the number of times the duty period may be extended for a flight crew the proposal also requires positioning of crew members are deadheading to be counted as duty and finally the n p r m specifically recognizes reserve our standby duty all these factors mark important progress our union has however found several areas in our  r m does not adequately reflect the ark's recommendations one the n p r m does not ensure that the length and quality of rest after a long range flight across multiple time zones will be sufficient before the next flight and duty period two we have concerns that the application of the augmented flight and duty period table will not adequately address the circadian disruption that the flight crew member may experience during certain types of long range flying and three the proposal does not assess the effects of increasing the amount of flight time in a duty period up to ten hours after many attempts and many years and staunch advocacy by op and others the f a a has developed a proposed rule that has the potential to make significant improvements in flight and duty regulations and to create a safer system for passengers shippers and all who depend on air transportation a lot now requires the f a a to publish new pilot flight and duty time rules no later than july thirty first of next year we know that this committee will be watching the agency closely to ensure that it meets the deadlines alterman members of the committee my name is steve alterman and i'm the president of the cargo airline association the members of our association are the united states all cargo carriers providing both express and traditional heavy freight service to shippers around the world both individually and association members of our industry agree that pilot fatigue is a legitimate safety issue an important safety issue and that the reexamination by the f a a both necessary and appropriate and  overdue the notice of proposed rule making issued by the f a a and published in the federal register on september fourteenth provides a vehicle for the ongoing effort to craft a rule that increases safety while at the same time ensuring that airline the airline industry can continue to serv customer base we appreciate the opportunity to address these issues today at first blush the n p r m appears to raise the relevant issues and actively salute solicits industry input however since this exceedingly complex rule was only published earlier this week are not yet prepared to comment in detail on its provisions we will however offer some comments on the approach to addressing pilot but he first although an integral member of the aviation community our unique segment of the industry is substantially different from other participants in the air transportation marketplace unlike passenger carriers all cargo carriers regularly operate long haul international flights travelling across multiple time zones during nighttime hours all cargo carriers also operate around the world in all directions and don't run turner and traditionally run turnaround service to international doing destinations service is often provided to remote often hostile defamation destinations often for mission critical flights on behalf of the military because of the industry unique operations all cargo crews have longer and better opportunities for rest or in a duty period indeed companies have invested millions of dollars to provide life let sleeping facilities a domestic cubs to provide flight crews sleep in and to mitigate fatigue it at those hugs similarly industry members have substantial investments in high quality rest basilicas aboard long range aircraft and call cargo flew flight crew members as a matter of fact make fewer annual takeoffs and landings in fly substantially fewer hours now than the passenger counterparts why are these and other distinctions important simply because they demonstrate that the united states air transportation industry is not a unified whole but rather consists of separate ignorants with different operational needs in turn while everybody in the industry both company's employees strives for the highest level of safety the means for achieving the safety level should be tailored to the unique operations of the industry components as f a a administrator randy babbitt has noted at an a safety form quote in roll making not only does one size not fit all but it's unsafe to think that it can this principle is especially important in the context of pilot fatigue in crafting a new regulatory screen scheme to address a legitimate safety concerns the f a a should recognize these differences inherently all cargo operations and craft a scheme that is consistent with those those differences i want to convert just briefly on the process thus far and i think it goes to some of the comments made in the opening remarks and that is that the arc process which the cargo airline participated in fully concentrate almost entirely on the hour of service issue  very little on the commuting issue and it seems to us that when you're trying to figure out how to craft new rules the first thing that should be done is find out what the cause of the problem is and then craft the rules to address those problems and we felt fairly strongly that there was an over commitment to the flight and duty time aspect and not enough time spent on the commuting issue and we felt that that was one of the problems with the with the our as as it was constituted finally i would like to comment just briefly because our industry took this process very seriously we didn't ignore the flight and duty time issue we actually put into the be it was submitted to the f a a later a comprehensive proposal dealing with flight and duty time that proposal recognize the differences between international domestic operations established limits were no limits current exist accounted for time of day operations address the crossing the multiple time zones reduced to flight duty periods for domestic and international operations from those in current regulations and increased the required rest periods for domestic and international operations i mention that because in spite of the fact that we felt it was too much concentration on the flight and duty time and not enough on commuting we did take our responsibility seriously and did put that proposal in a copy of a summary of that proposal is attached to our written testimony thank you very much and i'd be happy to answer any questions the chair thank you and announces that two members we have less than two minutes to get over to the floor for three votes so i w the committee will stand in recess until twelve fifteen we would ask that the witnesses be in their chairs at twelve fifteen the committee stands in recess  may arrive my name is oakley brooks scion president of the national air carrier association i am honored to appear today and give testimony our association natca represents a diverse group of fifteen passenger and all cargo airlines all natca members or certificate to fly under part one twenty one of the federal regulations are non scheduled passenger and all cargo airlines which are the bulk of natca members fly when their customers demand to all points of the globe notice a prospective flights is usually measured in days or weeks natca carries fly ninety five percent of all military passengers and forty percent of all military cargo under the civil reserve air fleet program at ministered by the air force's air mobility command notice for these flights to afghanistan iraq kuwait and other points is usually three weeks or less and that has participated in every flight and duty time review over the last twenty years we are a member of the a v we were a member of the aviation rulemaking committee in two thousand and nine and submitted comments and recommendations we believe changes should be made f a a released its notice a propos roos make rule making this past friday it is too early for a detailed analysis of the n p r m but there is one proposal in the notice we want to highlight today nonscheduled airlines currently operate under sub part s of part one twenty one which is specifically referrals to non scheduled operations sub part s already has many fatigue mitigation principles incorporated to print permit often unpredictable flights and longer flight duty periods for example in the same domestic exam environment as scheduled operations if non schedules fly a pilot more than eight hours in the twenty four hour period we must give the pilots sixteen hours of rest compared to on the eleven hours of rest for scheduled carriers these rules were put in place to recognize the distinct differences between scheduled and non scheduled airlines and the non regular services non scheduled airlines provide it is an interesting fact that non scheduled airlines regularly allow for even great greater sleep opportunities both before and after flight duty then required and sub par s or the n p r m this is to provide an extra layer of safety for their crews and we are offering to adjust fewster future regulations based on these facts and formally formal scientifically supported fatigue mitigation programs but non schedule carriers need the flexibility in the regulations to allow longer flight duty periods nachas comments in the rule making committee last fall recommend recommended continuation of sub artists or equivalent the just released n p r m rejected that recommendation choosing a one fits all rule despite administrator babbitt's insistence to a recent alpa safety form that one size fits all in a regulatory environment can be unsafe the m p r and justifies sub part eliminating sub part ass by saying non scheduled and scheduled carriers are becoming similar i respectfully disagree the two types of carriers are not becoming similar schedule offer schedules service and non schedule carers for non scheduled services natca will be making this and other arguments to f a a in its comments we believe it represents safety at its highest level and is and it is in the public interest thank you for allowing me to testify and i'd like to look forward to taking any questions we thank you for your testimony and now the chair recognizes mr hendricks good afternoon chairman costello ranking member p tryon members of the subcommittee my name is tom hendricks recently became the vice president of operations and safety at the airport air transport association of america pilot duty limit and rest requirements are  utmost importance as a captain and professional pilot for nearly twenty three years at a major u s airline i understand the critical importance of safe airline operations and the dependencies on crew members who are alert and can respond to the demands of flying commercial aircraft pilots airlines and the federal aviation administration each have indispensable roles in achieving our common objective of ensuring adequate rest for crew members now that objective is achieved is also vital appropriate duty limit and rest requirements must be the product of scientific research and operational experience be effective and reflect the specific operational environment of each carrier we must smartly combine data driven and evidence based approaches any new regulatory initiatives because eighty eight and its members recognize the significance of these considerations we were very active participants in the federal aviation administration flight and duty time aviation rule making committee the a charter the ark on july fifteenth two thousand and nine to recommend revisions to the agency's flight and duty time rules the ark met this very compressed september one two thousand and nine deadline that achievement was a result of the collaboration and professionalism of those on the committee while the arc was active eighty a the cargo airline association and the regional airline association submitted joint recommendations to the f a a for its consideration in the development of the expected notice  proposed rule making these recommendations reflected the diverse operations and experience of mainline all cargo and regional airlines we express in those recommendation support for a duty day regulation that appropriately response to fatigue risks including circadian cycles time awake time on task and acclamation to time zones consequently our recommendations were generally more restrictive than many duty limit and rest regulations around the world they will mitigate fatigue risk by reducing the duty time of pilots and expanding the amount of time for scheduled rest opportunities to assure adequate rest last friday the f a a released its flight and duty time n p r m we to compliment administrator babbitt and associate administrator gilligan for their leadership and shepherding the proposed rule eighty a and its members have not finished reviewing that lengthy and comprehensive document we will fully respond to the n p r m in the comments that we file in the docket in the meantime however the concepts that we outlined last year in our joint recommendation indicate the principles that we believe should be embodied in any change to the f a a regulations in essence the or as follows the new regulations should require each air carrier to adopt an f a a approved fatigue mitigation program that contains the carriers fatigue mitigation policies and training programs means of compliance are now outline in the recently released f a a advisory circular one twenty dash one o three which offers more detail and explanatory background that could be included in the proposed regulation this process will provide flexibility for updating and modifying airline fatigue mitigation programs as needed in addition the regulation should recognize the wide array of air carrier operating environments while the goal for all of us is one level of safety this is not mean it is not accomplished by one form of regulation any new make regulation must account for the wide variety of operations just as it does today nothing in fatigue and sleep research suggests the need for a one size fits all regulation indeed science recognizes that individual differences  operational contexts affect performance science based guidelines judiciously blended with decades of operational experience will allow the various air carrier model scans to continue to operate with the highest degree of safety for crew members and passengers the regulation should julie state that the crew members responsible for properly preparing for flight during the prescribed opportunity for rest expressly stating this responsibility will help address pilot commuting issues and will establish a framework from which a carrier can develop fatigue policies finally in the new regulation must confine itself to demonstrably necessary safety related requirements and avoid issues of perfectly left to the two resolution in the collective bargaining process eighty eight in its member carriers recognize the importance of this issue we look forward to participating in the rule making proceeding chair thank you mr hendricks and let me begin by a question for all all of our witnesses does anyone on the panel disagree that pilot commuting time should not be considered or state that there was consensus on many issues but there were a handful of issues that did not reach a consensus and i wonder if you might elaborate on the issues that there was not a consensus yes mr chairman fundamentally the ark agreed on the set of issues that needed to be addressed they understood based on dr blank and other scientists who work in this area that there were certain factors that had to be considered they agreed to the concept of a sliding scale much like the chart that i shared early on but they didn't reach agreement specifically on how many hours of flight time and duty time time should actually be proposed and so that came back to the f a a to take into account all of the various proposals that you've heard many testify about here and taking that into account given the science to actually draw up the charts that you were three issues in particular that you identified a few areas in which the n p r m does not adequately capture the a r c s recommendation and one is ensuring the length and quality of rest wonder if you might elaborate on all three points certainly the first major changes is the proposal to go from eight flight hours to ten flight hours during the daytime so on its surface that is something you have to look at very closely obviously combined with reducing the duty day from sixteen to thirteen hours certainly mitigates that but that's an area that we believe will warrant further concern our recommendation had been to go to nine hours then there is some of the specific issues on the long long haul or ultra long haul that we believe bear closer scrutiny how much rest do you require after a sixteen hour flight that crosses ten to twelve time zones and we believe that that's an area that will require further work if you also state that there's no rational basis for cargo or charter pilots to have different or more liberal fatigue rules than the schedule passenger operations and wonder if you might explain that point yes or certainly  e more than happy to turn to my right here and ask the doctor if there's any difference between human beings that get hired by an employer that flies cargo with their airplane versus one flies passengers i have done all i can tell you that the human beings that are pilots makes no difference to your fatigue level on what your mission is whether you're flying cargo or whether you're flying passengers and the fact that for over forty years there's been because of economic reasons that's what we asked to in today and we believe that this proposal does a good start on that dr blank he would you agree with captain prater mr chairman yes i would very the associate minister margaret gilligan it's a little bit about the do you think about the implications of the rule or how it how to kind of think about it i understand at the briefings to accomplish the same number of flights and you have any estimate as to how many more pilots would be required for the industry as a whole under the new as opposed to currently yes sir in our economic analysis we do address those issues we believe the the flight time will be covered in two ways it is likely that current pilots will end up flying more days to fly the same number of flight hours and as i think you know their pay is linked to flight time as well as to time on duty so some of it the schedules will have to be moved out a little bit to fit the same number of flights for the pilot to fly the same number of flight hours now but right now the estimate is about twenty three hundred pilots would need to be added to cover the current schedules now of course will be optimization of scheduling and those kinds of things that will that may affect that but that would be a fairly large increase it's about a three percent increase in the pilot ranks but that would happen very early on right after the effective time of the rule so it's a fairly condensed time for that additional cost and as part of your analysis have you did you make a  benefit analysis as is required by the rule making process and the cost estimates for what we call present value which is an easy or comparable number is about eight hundred million dollars in cost and depending on how you how economists value the life that would be saved by reducing this risk the benefits are i believe between four hundred million and six hundred million so the benefits we believe justify the costs in this role and that's why we've gone forward with the proposal you can tell from the other people testifying on the panel and from the comments of a made about through there's some tension  about how the rule applies to different segments of the aviation industry schedules and not scheduled and charter and so on human flight and package flights and  e did you consider what's you know what's the reason for having a kind of overall framework rather than differentiated approach depending on the requirements of that industry and the costs fall disproportionately on different segments of the industry i think as you've heard dr blank you so explained so well  the dilemma that we face in developing this framework is that at the end of the day all pilots are humans and all but all humans react to fatigue the same way and so the fact that i might have a job that is an overnight job doesn't change the way i physically react to fatigue and what we've tried to balance here is what we know about what it is that it's to fatigue against the hours that someone can be available to operate there are two specific elements in the proposal however that i think go in some measure to address the concerns of mr alterman and mr brooks we have permitted what we call split duty that is as mr alterman described it there are many cargo operators who run a hub operation and once the pilots arrive they then provide them very comfortable accommodations to rest during the time that the packages are being moved through the hub facility and we have credited that additional rest and allowed them then to extend some operational time based on that rest we've also specifically exempted to mr brooks is concerned those flights that support critical u s missions around the world that may have a crew and up in a in a very unsafe location where we would permit them to move to a safe location now we want reporting on that we want to monitor it make sure it's not being abused but we're very mindful of the concerns as that might affect those military missions and again it's a proposal we're looking for comments on the elements we've included we'll certainly consider other elements that meet the safety and secure scientific needs but that can help us adjust the proposal ll might possibly be modified to take into account taken nature of the segments of aviation that you are representing yes thank you first of all i thank you and i did mention earlier that i think the structure of the rules is the way to go i think the f a a recognize all the elements the question is how to apply those elements to different segments and i certainly couldn't disagree with captain prater's the answer to captain freighters question about whether a pilot cares whether he's flying cargo or passengers that i would suggest is not the right question however the question is if you are hired to fly nighttime rotations for an overnight cargo carrier as opposed to flying an occasional overnight segment or redeye for a passenger carrier what is a scientific matter is that do is is there a difference can you become a climate id to flying basically nighttime schedules all the time and i'm not sure i've seen any schedules east scientific studies the deal with that issue so what we were  before we jump in and start limiting nighttime flying drastically and we have suggested limiting nighttime flying and recognize it to the validity of circadian rhythms that we get more information on that and find out whether for instance a fedex or u p s pilot can acclimate himself because they're flying that one rotation and i do applaud the f a a for in this gilligan's comments that they have tried to recognize distinct operations in certain areas in the slip duty is certainly something that we appreciate because of all of our members provide cargo carrier gets to the hub facilities to get rest carriers generally that cruise operate about fifty hours a month which is far fewer hours then schedule carriers operate and they also opera on very short notice as i mentioned  distant parts of the globe which it's it's very difficult to set up crew bases almost impossible to set up crew bases and other situations such as that the schedule carriers have  we also applaud the f a a and the whole process for bringing in the the additional science considering circadian low numbers of stops nighttime flying and we agree that those are very important elements that should and will be introduced into the whole process of setting hours i would tell you and i repeating what i had in my testimony and it  coordinates with the number of hours that our pilots fly that in order to make up for the long flights that nonscheduled carers often have to fly our airlines regularly schedule longer sleep opportunities both before and after flying then are either required in the regulations or are normal for scheduled carriers and  our review with dr graber who assisted us on this analysis is that if you are able to combine long flying with long sleep periods in a responsible way that provides the rest and the sleep necessary for the cruise to become ready for duty again and that is a critical element which we r m to address that what were what we need more discussion about is how it would work in practice are these going to be one off trips there's  reporting requirement at the end and so you know these are the sorts of things that we need to get into more but we do recognize that mitigation opportunity that the f chairman i'd like to submit for the record i have copies of the air force crew rest periods of crew duty times and we can submit that for the record as reference and air force volume two zero two volume three eleven two a two volume three and they describe crew rest crew when you're done the propellers stop turn and you walk out the door forty five minutes after that is when your crew rest begins now that gives you twelve hours of crew rest period where you have time  get a meal we have time to you know there's been delays i've been on the back end of a clock where you know there's problems with the hotel the ride may not show up on time so right now the f a a is prescribing that that be raised from eight to nine hours so i am saying to you that what happens in those circumstances when the pilots or the air crew have a delay they don't get to their hotel those are those are eight hours of uninterrupted sleep begin when they're actually laying in their bed with the with the remote control under their lap actually so the we have changed when the rest period begins it's now nine hours rest period that begins after arriving at the rest facility whether that's the hotel or at your home with an eye toward providing an eight hour of actual sleep opportunity within that nine hours so that's a fairly dramatic change from the current which is not unlike what you described right now the end of the duty period is after leaving the aircraft so we've made that change if it if it's twelve hours for the air force why cannot be twelve hours in the nation again give having worked through this issue with the rule making committee and having looked at the science involved we believe that a reasonable balance that allows for sufficient rest will be a nine hour rest period but i would point out that at the maximum duty day of thirteen hours and a rest period of nine hours there's still two hours in that twenty four hour day so there is more time in the twenty four hour period than we have assigned to either rest or to duty time ok my concern is on the back end of the clock especially on international flights for your lane you're flying through multiple time zones in your lane your hotel room trying to go to sleep but it's light out  international flights how were these best practices incorporated into the rules specially on international flights when you have an opportunity to review the rule i think you'll see we have several charts that describe what we call the sliding scale so depending on the hour of the day it would you start work the flight duty time period is reduced so if you're flying late night flights you are available to your company for less time for actually being on duty and again that will free up hours to be used for rest so it's a balance of trying to acknowledge that there are certain hours during the day and certain numbers of segments both of which contribute to fatigue and reduce the amount of time the pilot is available to be on duty i also have a bit of concern about the decrease from thirty to twenty eight the number of days during which a pilot may not record more than one hundred hours of flying time was already fought that that's going to be compressed towns that are having thirty days to complete one hundred hours they have twenty eight days which means that they're going to be flying a lot more hours versus spreading out over two more days again we believe that the entire proposal provides a sufficient balance among all of the  various elements that have to be considered and that's why it really is a package that you have to look at as a whole but these are the specific areas where we've asked for comment we actually list in the preamble comments that we've asked people to provide data does this change raise risk or not do you have data that says that supports that so that as we go into the final rule we will be better informed thank you one last question the what does the proposed rule for reduction of the rest periods you know what seems what would occur on extra long days where for instance that were caused by delays was that factored into the decision making in the ark yes so right now the proposal would permit the extension of the flight duty period a single time in a seven day period for one hour with agreement by both the crew and the company and again that's with the expectation there was something completely  that the company could not have anticipated so weather and other phenomena that should be anticipated in building schedules would would not be a basis for extending that in the seat in the c r m reports the crew resource management forms and they're supposed to come up with your is there a non retribution provision in there the say that aircrew are not going to penalize if they show up and they say i just can't perform my duties today i'm tired the role requires that no airmen may accept an assignment if they are not fit for duty and the air carrier may not use or give an assignment to a crew member who is not fit for duty it would be a regulatory violation to to use that pilot in that way very good thank you mr chairman sure thanks  gentlemen and not only thanks gentleman for his thoughtful questions but for the contributions that he made in helping us craft a safety bill that we think is one of the best that has been done in decades so i thank you the chair at this time now recognizes the distinguished chairman of the full committee chairman over s thank you mr chairman and appreciate the work that you have put into preparing for this hearing on the staff and also greatly appreciate the participation support from mr p try and staff on the republican side and the comments of mr bush charity he's really become our resident aviation authority in the committee and i greatly appreciate the contribution he brings  just mention for the record i've said it in other venues but we're walking off the house floor after the health care vote and a gaggle of reporters asked was that a tough vote for you and he said compared to flying know he brings a steady hand to these issues mr brooks statement cruise nonscheduled carriers fly longer flight segments and therefore have longer sleep opportunity without saying what those longer s can get out to sixteen sixteen or eighteen hours again depending on what we call augmentation in the on the airplane sometimes there are  additional crew member sometimes there are two additional crew members and that's covered in the regulations now and again it's considered in the in the proposal so those are the ten hours twelve hours sixteen hours yes sir depending on the augmentation the level of augmentation in the crew sixteen hours that controls well not one crew member sir but but w to save management some money and might help workers have a longer weekend they could do more hunting fishing snowmobiling in the winter and so on top for twelve hour days so i went to plant see how this is working out and i talk to one of the old timers what do you think about it you worked in that mill for thirty years he said jim i won't stand by one of these guys and put in a twelve hour shift you might turn around but me into that vat down there these guys are arrested after twelve hours no more workin in a paper mill than behind a stick on the and the flight deck for twenty six years in the open pit another fourteen years i worked the night shift eleven to seven called it the graveyard shift one of those i was sampling or on an ore car chris come across the car with a little scoop in your hand take samples of the or put in a bag toss that off that off the car jump to the next car to three in the morning you get a little i was just a kid knows nineteen years old a lot of energy a rain one night rainstorm stepped on the edge of that carves it was a lump or little i didn't see it lose piece of or cut my foot on it slip right off the car fifteen feet down right between two railroad tracks to retro ties three inches either way i wouldn't be here today that's the teak i was working the shift tracks i wouldn't send a car up and smack into somebody who was already on that track and even when i wrote it even when i marked it down and which place and where they were at two or three in the morning in a rainstorm and under adverse conditions now all of you i think on this panel are aware of the work this committee did three years ago on railroad safety passed in one thousand and seven had been amended once in a hundred years we were determined to turn that around to update railroad safety in one of the targets was a limbo time limbo time is just like something you are describing here this panel discussing response to various questions the ten hour hundred mile rule if you if you as a locomotive engineer run that engine and that train ten hours that's the end of your shift if an eight hours you run one hundred miles that's the end your shift but not quite you're still on duty and i got a little shack at the edge of the or sometimes they put them up in a motel but you can't leave the motel there if you're not on duty you're not off duty it's limbo time one railroad all a name is union pacific and on duty all the time not paid for it you're not off duty you can go and do anything you want is supposed to be resting and then you can be called up for the next shift at the mark up in committee i think mr might remember i said if it's good enough for the pope to eliminate limbo time's going to be good enough for this committee and all the catholics in the audience laughed but we did it over a three year period he has documented time and again the effects of fatigue on pilots flight attendants and air traffic controllers there were twenty six of them had been rejected by f a a every one of them showed fatigue too many hours that controls no break in between to a little rest time away from controls fatigue setting in finally the roa kind study was one they couldn't f a a could not reject and they began dealing seriously with fatigue but by then there was the strike it start all over again now there is that there is there is fatigue and fatigue if you're going if you're flying six hours seven eight hours in one time zone north of south south to north there's one effect on the body's circadian rhythm if you're flying against the clock is another effect if you're flying with the clock over multiple time zones there is a third effect i want you to tell me the difference between sixteen twelve ten eight hours in in those modes mr chairman i'm i'm afraid i can't do that in the sense that that you'd really have to do some experimental work to look at specifics you know directionality north south i when you talk about twelve eighteen hours at the controls i think obviously those are that's a very long time one of the ways this becomes feasible is with augmented crews and in flight rest the syllabi and in flight sleep and pilots do get in flight sleep and from my perspective it's total sleep in twenty four hours that term and performance if they're getting decent amounts of sleep an empirical question in each twenty four hour period they should be good to go taking into account that if they're flying through their window circadian low performance may be degraded even in the situation where they're well rested but it's very hard to come up with a specific rule in a specific number given start times different start times different end times given the effects of early starts extended work hours and then the issue of re synchronization i mean if you're not extent you're exposed to light different time zones your body will start to resynchronize but that slow process resynchronize is by approximately an hour a day so if you do a rapid turnaround you may not have all that much change in scientifically responsible and not wanting to generalize but there is an enormous body of research done on all of these factors and i don't think we need to wait till the last study is done as was done with the air traffic controllers twenty six five the twenty seven study was done finally something began to happen like applying new technology i don't think we have to wait until a saree tells california occurs two planes crash in the air before we but traffic collision avoidance systems to cas on aircraft i don't think we have to wait for another and an airport runway and and aircraft to run into each other on the ground before we implement cision runway monitoring that's the way safety has been done new regulations are written in blood who have died and scream out for change twelve hours sleep and then say well you can go and fly for twelve hours but about that eighth or ninth hour i don't you know you say the crew rest and they can nap on board or you take a nap and come back takes a little while you're still groggy your body is not functioning properly i don't think that is a substitute one question i really wonder the pound just quickly could respond to it i don't think you'd have to elaborate much there's a sixty day comment period on this we've had this hearing and there  s going to address it we'd really be worthwhile to do what's necessary to get it as right as possible and so i'm just asking whether the sixty days you feel is adequate t actually creates a problem there's significant modeling to be done and we're in the process of starting that the whole process has become somewhat complicated because of this the safety act that was passed in requires carriers by october thirty first so that to submit a fatigue risk management plan to the f a a and we're in the process our carriers are in the process of developing those plans the problem we have with the sixty day response period is the same people who are working all day trying to put together that plan to be submitted by october thirty first are the exact same people that we need to have at our availability available to us to respond to this so we're in a little bit of bind i think sixty days is not going to be sufficient for our purposes if that's what the time is will submit something in fifty sixty days but it really isn't sufficient what would be i'd like to say one hundred twenty days that gets is over the christmas holidays and i'm not sure that we get much production over over that i i think another thirty days would be sufficient just so we can get past the fatigue risk management plan and our carriers are in some cases very much like the cargo carriers in terms of the ability to have resources to work on it we have no interest in delay we just want to make the process as robust as possible and make sure we can put in comments to the docket that are responsive so back up our written testimony which asks for one hundred twenty days i think mr try for the question and let me say that frankly we have no tolerance for any more than sixty days this is not an issue that came up overnight this is an issue that has been discussed for twenty  years if in fact mr alderman if you're if your team is doing one thing and then has to move over and address this i'd suggest that you go out and get some outside expertise to help you so that you can comply within the sixty day period  i would be stream lee disappointed and see no reason why we should have to go over sixty days this is an issue that everyone at this table and everyone in the industry has discussed thought about  and we know who in fact is attempting to address this quickly and we know that there are reasons why others do not want to address it i would just suggest to you that we stick to the sixty days and i believe that that is adequate time if you calculate how many hours there are in a day and take that time sixty i think that's adequate time to comment on the fifty items that made  fourteen that was the number of years that flight attendants had been waiting for a decision on flight and duty time for flight attendants was also the number of hours that flight attendants on average were asked to be on duty as with flight time included in that period thank you  n our committee staff just pulled out the hearing a nineteen ninety three hearing  on the legislation to provide for the duty time limitations of flight attendants seventeen years i have no tolerance for we need another thirty days or sixty days or whatever time you know what needs to be done get your people together and do it safety of the public is at stake safety of your pilots is at stake there is no excuse in the tolerance for delay you've had this on your agenda for as mr costello said for twenty years longer than that even to get it done but i just wanted to know and actually both of us were speaking here and we just want to know if there was any objection from the companies from the from the air carriers themselves of raising the crew rest period from ten hour or between ten and twelve hours military congressman i'll speak to that we've started our analysis of the rule and we'll be happy to specifically address that question and respond on the record once we complete some of that analysis i would like to comment for the record i mean just to quote the air force regulation as well it says a minimum of twelve hours of crew rest period before the flight flight duty period begins is to ensure that the air crew member is adequately rested before performing flight or flight related duties crew rest is free time which includes time for meals transportation and rest and must include eight hours of uninterrupted sleep thank you will be happy to provide a response of the said and i would also like to add that as a  former airline pilot for nearly twenty three years i had many of those nights that did not accomplish twelve hours of uninterrupted rest and i was able operate safely and without having perceive myself to be fatigued that's true and there are times where there has been delayed i think that cushion was put in there so that there would be adequate time in those in those circumstances when does the captain greater if you could tell me when does the flight duty period actually end when the minute you walk off the airplane in the under the current rules fifteen minutes after you set the parking brake that's why we advocate for the proposal that the f a a has laid out there that the duty to our excuse me the rest time would start after you got to your rest facility as you first issue sir we would say that you know while more is better in a lot of things like retirement and wages there are unintended consequences that could creep into it if an airman was had to spend another three or four days on the road during their schedule that twelve hours might not look as good it has to be an entire scheme and i think that's where the a a has gone saying that you know a shorter time once in a while is ok but it can't be night after night after night so that's why we believe that the nine hours behind the door is a good place to start because we think the issue of commuting that has been raised here i'll just say real quickly first of all with all due respect for all the work that's been done on this issue commuting did not start our nor will it end with these hearings it is a fact of the transportation life it is incumbent upon the pilot and his employer to ensure that the pilot is rested regardless of what is transportation mode was to get to work i believe that there's been some almost soul searching if you will when you look for the reason of the most recent fatal accidents and we do that each and every time but we cast a look at the big big picture and it's not just commuting pilot fatigue is caused by too many hours behind the stick and few too few hours in the motel we believe that the issue of commuting must be addressed and will be addressed under the rule in the advisory circular adequately and i think with a  the chair thanks the gentleman and i thank our witnesses for testifying today unless there are other questions or comments chairman oberstar just a retrospective i held up the committee hearing back many years as far as one thousand nine hundred seventy eight when the f a a promised to have a regulation out by the end of the year it's a good thing no one was holding their breath as this hearing opens we're still congressman clingers comment he is the ranking member gentleman from pennsylvania flight attendants deserve duty time limitations without a doubt their job requires more physical exertion than almost any other class of employees in the aviation industry that i can think of it is unfortunate that they have been denied the protections afforded by reasonable workplace standard and that the traveling public has been denied the assurance that flight attendants are lerton prepared to cope with emergencies that may arise cited thirty eight thousand air carrier passengers over a fourteen year period valving evacuations severely ill need oxygen administered passing blood on board the aircraft flight attendants needed to address the address those needs and then there is a very telling comment by a gentleman from illinois mr costello the legislation calls for duty time limits on actual time served other parties have called for duty limitation placed on schedule time my concern is for the safety of our commercial airline system under scheduled duty limits if your flight attendants would be working under greatly fatigued circumstances due to unforeseen delays weather mechanical problems and would be incapable of adequately responding to an emergency as chairman thank you for your pre for your consistency for sticking to your last continuing that service that underscores the need to proceed without delay and get this rule making accomplished and have a single standard of safety in the skies and i think with that ms gilligan in particular that you have a clear message to take back to the administrator t extension of these sixty days as suggested by mr alderman or mr brock's or anyone else and i can assure everyone including the families of the colgan flight who are here and who consistently  have their own expense continue to do what they believe is best in what's in the best interest of the flying public when it comes to safety we appreciate you being here we appreciate your ben jealous and all of your input  and we will continue to monitor this issue and to make certain that the law that we just passed in was signed into law on august first of this year is in fact followed and we look forward to seeing a rule that we believe and look forward to making a major difference when it comes to safety and t in the industry so we thank all of the witnesses for being here today