repaired here just go well beyond this low standard and showing that geldings impacts are highly uncertain for three principal reasons st the underlying scientific evidence including evidence and which found that and i'm quoting here from two hundred and three the effect that galloping a portion of the males enough or would have on reproduction and behavior could not be predicted like why  spec into the herd but my question is about how important that is to the overall project in other words complete uncertainty about something tangential or go back to the other reasons but i would like you to address that question yes your honor i appreciate the question it's very well thank you and here it is the case that the uncertainty about building goes near water sources and this is extremely important because if that happens then the decision to release a gelding may fundamentally undermine the b l m own goal of improving range land conditions likewise the national academy of sciences advised b l m but b l m did not consider that gelding may actually increase the herds reproductive success if that's the case then the decision to include gelding may completely undermine b l m own goal of slowing population growth and reducing the need for additional gatherers so in at least two additionally evidence from both the national academy of sciences and from a w h t's experts that they put into the record show that gelding may have extremely severe impact on wild horse behavior which he maintains that those effect if they turn out to be true are contrary to congress's intent to protect wild horses including their behavior i'd like to highlight how these facts are very similar to the fact that led this court to recently require an environmental impact statement in far as united states forests are there scientific evidence in the record showed that a certain form of question or not it does seem a little counterintuitive doesn't it however national academy of sciences explicitly warned about this excerpts of record two o three and it showed that gelding could increase aggression and competition among horses and or reduce it and my understanding of it is that it's the reduced competition her by upper mating essentially that would result in increased  euthanize or shoot a whole bunch of horses to reduce is that a solution from your viewpoint well the american wild horse campaign does not i mean gore's euthanasia for wild horses and as a legal ma that's not on the table for b l m because congress has  has consistently in appropriation bills said that b l m may not expend resources on the euthanasia of healthy wild horses so no but we do believe there are other alternatives t consider including a more rigorous use of p c p vaccines on females which the national academy of sciences identified as one of the most promising particularly control methods and deceptive me which the national academy  this area if if we were to agree with you on the end certainty manner and thus requiring the high hand us when we have to reach the other issues in the case no your honor an e i yes would sufficiently remedy all of the issues that it will be which she has raised in this case so in addition there example to requiring the reproducing and non reproducing animals which option should be considered including gelding and the nd now or then the end they asked for or only six pages in in what it characterizes as a but briefly if i may i believe that some background about the attitude about this plan would be helpful to the court the wild free roaming horses and burros act charges b l m with managing wild horse populations to achieve and maintain a thriving natural ecological balance on the public lands to achieve that goal b l m establishes appropriate management levels for particular herd management area and then utilizes round ups and fertility control methods as necessary to achieve those levels the l m is required to immediately remove the excess animals whenever on the basis of all information about that task and the incorporation of fertility controls to slow population growth and alternately reduce the number of courses requiring removal is consistent with the recommendations of numerous entities including the national academy of sciences and the humane society of the united states now of course your honor spiel and does face an incredibly difficult management task judge gilman you asked about euthanasia statutes consistently from using euthanasia to destroy healthy animals so be a landing faces a very difficult management task and here for example as of december t teams these complexes contained approximately nine thousand five hundred wild horses and the appropriate management level is a range from eighty nine million nine hundred and twenty one thousand six hundred and seventy your honor quite simply i'd like to begin st with the standard on that question this court has explained quite clearly that any i asked is not required merely because that question of uncertainty which is always the that's true for the individual animal of course but the question isn't really about the safety of those surgery for the individual animal it has to do with the remainder of the experiences prior to galloping affect behavior after galloping and respectfully are honors it's really quite a commonsense proposition here horses like other species are products of their environment and the record again to look at these pages specifically b l m conduct it got very careful thorough review of the available scientific information and made a reasoned projection behavior and not of the wider population but your honour's that is a far cry and b l m is studying that for purposes of improving its wild horse management program but the fact that b l m is studying an effect in order there was a proposal to increase cruise ship traffic into glacier bay national park and preserve by up to seventy two percent percent there were studies on the record including the agency's own studies that showed that would have severe impact on threatened and endangered species because an increased risk of vessel collisions and oil spills there are no comparable effect here barque is also helpful in how different the effects are there are you have studies again and are there there is evidence in the record undermining the agency's conclusion and the effects went to fire management which support explained you know is severely important has severe impacts you know and is a matter of essentially life and death but the effects here aren't at that level it's import the campaign has never argued on appeal or at any point in this litigation that b l m was required to consider the sec to me that argument has been forfeited and the court should not reach it so the campaign has never argued that the l m c consider the sec to mean it never raised that issue during the administrative process it never made that argument in the district court or on appeal so we're support not to consider that it's not it's just not something and overall the n a s report is a program matic forward looking a report that that looks at a number of possible for too little control economy p c p and rationally explain that among them gelding is one method that does not require multiple handling occasions to achieve long term infertility and is accordingly consistent with the wildhorse acts are quire meant that management be at the minimum feasible level necessary to attain management objectives and that is to s c r one hundred and seventy six so and judge gilman you did ask about this a man doesn't the n a s report also indicate i believe it was judge gilman that there are problems with it and that is in fact true so and you know more most broadly the in a population may increase the number of months that male seek to mate which could increase the risk of injury resulting in compromised body conditions due to less time spent foraging and possibly lower winter survival rates of males and turn the lower male winter survival rates it states would be likely to have a number of consequences for a population dynamics including less stable harems and possible increased harassment of female 's very clear that this sect to me is not available and particularly given that it was not raised to b l m at any point in the process or ever argued in this case the court should not reach that issue expressly authorized it to use you know in the wild horse act and you know again whether he'll you know particularly with respect to me about that also with respect to the wild horse act under the a p a the court may not substitute its judgment for b l lambs and here and this is you know it and in this case and this gather plan the primary reason that b m l b l m authorized the limited number of releases geldings to the range which by the way the agency has not done to date under this gather plan but is simply to allow a larger number of them to remain in the wild so respectfully what it really fuller explanation and study were required in the form of an e i so we're not really trying to judge the end result we're here to figure out if it was enough to say well we're just going to do this quicker version because there's no significant impact uncertainty it may be that the result would be the same we have no way to know that but the the issue really scientific birth certificate literature and there is a lot of scientific literature on the effects of the l and this you know recognize that there is some uncertainty but respectfully your honour's there always is  this whole plan is to forestall environmental damage prevent animal suffering which is occurring because of this overpopulation and to restore a thriving natural ecological balance to the discussed and analyzed the limited gelding component and there is some uncertainty as there always is but it doesn't rise to the level of establishing that the effects on the environment and again we would urge the court to compare the effects it issued here with those issued in national parks association and also bark because it illustrates by contrast that these effects just do not rise to that level and again below and i didn't know you have you've element here and in doing so explain some key deficiencies in the argument we just heard from the opposing counsel one is the notion that b l m ostensibly engaged in it on extensive scientific review now opposing counsel directed the court's attention to span of pages in a and the presence of numerous scientific studies there however if the court examined those studies scientific resources that were cited predate the national academy of sciences or so the notion that they engaged in a comprehensive review while ignoring their own study of geldings impacts which highlights why the impacts remain uncertain and the other the twenty six team study which showed that the sec to mean not delving has some impact on reducing population growth rate scientific evidence that the agency wrongfully did not attend to knowing this process including the national academy of sciences or and would require the agency to fully consider all of us thank you counsel the chase just aren't you submitted and we appreciate very much the helpful comments from both of you