good morning may it please the court i'm kirby heller i represent the united states i'd like to reserve three minutes in rebuttal the fourth amendment does not require the police to simply walk away when in response to a nine one one call reporting the potentially deadly combination of multiple shots and a woman screaming for help because they have failed to confirm the emergency from the outside of the residen what he had heard he said the sounds it sounds like it's coming from the corner of this particular intersection at a mobile home there are lots of car as he described it the troopers responded in their care take it community caretaking function they were not there for a lawn for foresman purpose they were there because they thought that there was reasonably thought there was an emergency they thought there was a domestic dispute perhaps that was involved and in those circumstances this court has noted that conscientious police officers engaging in that role should err on the side of caution and that's what these troopers did  and it made a few others as well first if the court failed to consider the assessment it's second guessed the officers the assessment that they made on the scene in response again t emergency rapidly evolving facts perhaps you know let's go back to the facts for a minute this i understand ok so there's these officers are sent to this particular location or they say they're going to respond to this location that's correct  why did they select this particular trailer well the trailer was described in detail the trail and enough to tell you what the nine one one nine one guess and called in and said gunshots from this trailer what they were gunshots from this area i don't believe he said it sounds like it's coming from this corner mobile home there lots of cars in the driveway this patch in  referring that and i there was an exhibit at the hearing so they're not what's told to the troopers because they don't hear the nine one one call what's told to them is gas well you know he describes what he hears women yelling help stop help help sounded like it's coming from the corner of rustic in gas well mobile home there with lots of car the off one of the officers was familiar with that area correct they all knew exactly what was being described they all knew in fact at least two of them knew that mr sure for lived there they also especially sergeant feller had a had was familiar with with mr sure so they go out to the trailer that's correct and they get there there's nothing really happening in the yard you're you're right there's nothing happening in the yard area but they don't know again this thing really sounds going on a yelling  none of these were not voices there's no disease or voices raised in anger there was a party going on well they don't know what they do know is that there had been a woman what had been reported was a woman screaming for help and the question is when they didn't hear someone screaming from help or didn't see loud or something else should they have walked away and i think a reasonable they knock on the door they knocked on the door and if you which offer not and which officer knocked on the door sunday guard not and sunday god knocked on the front door this foul and there's no one billing milla skill or answers right that's correct and what was the exchange so far as we know from the recording right so we do know what was exchanged identifies himself and he basically says we had reports of a scream and this miller says that was me again confirming they're in the right location and then he says we have to come in and she's like no you know do you have i thought there was something about domestic that yes he mentions that show she's you have to come in before he mentioned that there's no domestic that there's no domestic we heard shots i don't know about that you can strate judge said was that she was as polite as the situation called for if without even listening to it if you look at the transcript that's attached to the magistrate judge as report with her including profanities i'm not sure that that's exactly an accurate description officers officers come to the door and seek entrance and she says repeatedly you're not coming in here without a warrant because they're repeatedly trying to get in without a warrant and i guess my question is is that is is was it error the medicine judge to conclude that under those circumstances there wasn't anything aggressive  her conduct isn't she i guess i would say isn't she within her rights to stele them reputedly you're not coming in without a warrant it is certainly within her rights to say you have i'm not letting you in but that doesn't mean again in this context  border that was me actually says that was may and then she and then the trooper again is trying to find out what happened and he says he says you know we got a report of domestic honor and the point is what these troopers are trying to do is figure out is there somebody who is injured inside inside these premises that whether someone injured outside that's true but we had this scream for help and we had the is mentioned in the magistrate judge's order and not to paint it extensively in the appellate briefs and that is the officers basing their decision in part on their feeling that this was essentially a bad neighborhood or a bad part of the world and the magistrate judge will being a little worried about that and citing our case in united states versus month arrow come or go and for the proposition that it would be dangerous for us to go down the path of permitting officers just to say that without backing it up with statistics to address that issue yes your honor i don't think that was a significant factor in the troop his decision to enter what was what they were basing it on with almost exclusively the nine one one call and what they knew about sure it was a man who they had previously encountered in tense situations with guns there were questions about the bad neighborhood at the hearing one for said yes we can see he said in my experience that nine one one calls tend to be accurate that wasn't substituting for a reasonable suspicion here and another trooper said we have to take that into account in planning how we're go proxy for say race or or economic characteristics of a neighborhood the testimony the evidence you're hearing was very generalized on that point and i would say that the phrase you know high crime neighborhood is sort of you can use that to describe pretty much any neighborhood every neighborhood has high crime compared to someplace else this is a fairly rural neighborhood this is a very well neighborhood and that's not much of a neighborhood well the magistrate in his final report and this is a thirty five page report is very thorough the magistrate took four hours actually going back to ms miller for just a moment right right but he also he has a gun but it isn't a high powered rifle which means that neither of the front door nor the back door of any officer has actually seen the evidence of a high powered rifle that's been reported wrecked correct right and the scene that they encountered i mean i would take there certainly wasn't any you know bullet holes in the building that weren't any blood stains on the property no broken property there's no altercation going on outside there's no signs of any kind of argument going on again raised voices is not the same thing as a verbal argument but then started backtracking just a moment a sergeant fowler's entrance into the home you know he's pulling people out as they approach the door step and then he enters mr dispute as to what the standard is the magistrate's report applied the legal standard which is anytime you have a warrantless intrusion into the home this is the chief evil against which the fourth amendment is designed to protect against and the government has a pretty heavy burden identifying facts and circumstances that give rise to a reasonable belief that there was in fact and at what point should the officers stopped i would say that they did need no attempts at following up with and i want color that was i think their first mistake i think so how can they follow well this is an i one call with very limited information and the troopers acknowledge that you're an evidentiary hearing that this was a third party report not from somebody who's in the property not somebody who could see what was going on arrest and that's what i did hear that the troopers in here that they followed up with the caller are they supposed to i don't know is that is that standard procedure for troopers to call the nine one one call or i think every case is different but again the content of the call in this case was so minimal and so sketchy i don't think i've ever heard of a case in which troopers called somebody who had called dispatch or even just to say dispatch can you get more information anything along those lines would have been more reasonable than what they did which is to jump to the conclusion that there is somebody  now there now let's say they don't make that call because they didn't make it in this case i'm interested in judge by beast question at what point in their interactions with ms miller or the other occupants of the trailer should they have turned around on their heels and walked away i would think f moment somebody answers the door and says there's no problem here and it's and certainly they're in the court and here's the other thing is that the troopers made up their mind that they were going to go inside this trailer that was pretty evident the transcript and if the court wants to the magistrate included a transcript of the exchange with mr miller it's appendix a and the exchange is pretty striking you know if you're persona guard answers the door miss miller answers the door to persona guards as a low everything's going she says everything's fine again she doesn't have any physical signs of injury she's not in distress you know how you do when i'm all right i need to come in those are the first that's the first time trooper sondergaard is saying i'm coming inside i need to comment on this miller you do yeah we heard a female there was a female that we heard screaming here oh that was me ok well then i have to amen excuse me why does do you have a warrant and then it goes from there her confusion i think in her sort of you know being taken aback and the discussion about the goat i think was a reasonable  confrontational tone that the ever as a transcript and i think it's a sceptical to the characterization that you're giving it but even so even though it but is that something that we can even properly consider because this gets back to the officer subject of intent and even so if there if there were not reasonable grounds for them to go in under emergency they can't go in what if there were reasonable grounds even if they kind of wanted to go into the building for their own purposes it wouldn't matter when it no it wouldn't and i think that is kind of what i think that is what we have here is we have a situation we're going to the troopers are a little bit curious but they're rushing to a conclusion that simply not reasonable if they're saying this is an emergency situation it's simply not supported by the problem in the area it's a rural area which means there's not a lot of other options it's not like we've got the wrong trail or it's the one next door although i would say that there were other residences in the neighborhood that they didn't check out that was also brought out at this corner acknowledge that this might be a very very different case if the one on one call had come from inside the trailer i think that that would have been a important consideration yes not to say that there must be a call from inside the house but that's certainly one compelling factor here that and that is sort of the hallmark or one of the things that we have in the next and all the other cases that are cited was the call in sniper from inside the the location officers responded to it was purportedly coming from inside the house i'd say that the cases are in the us about that but they had a reasonable basis for believing that the call was coming from inside that makes us counsel once once the officer says good how are you i'm all right you're right he says i need to come in yes we heard there was a female screaming here i mean she doesn't perceive that it was that she would be the distress because she obviously doesn't look into stress and then she says oh that would be me this now confirms that they're at the right address well and then that and then the next thing is you know we're getting ready for halloween party i mean what she's there again the troopers are coming up with their own kind of take on things are talking about screaming and i think from his militia perspective she's thinking this is a noise complaint listening out for the high powered rifle shots and that's a that's very very specific and this is the neighborhood going back to the character of the neighborhood for just a moment not necessarily crime wise but this is a r community where shots are heard on a regular basis i myself live maybe four miles from where this location from there's incident took place the sounds of guns going off is not uncommon and in fact the troopers admitted both sergeant fowler and should persona guard said there a gravel pit maybe a mile or two down the road which is a a site where people shoot guns so it could have been coincidental that is the nine one one call or might have heard a woman screaming for help and heard gunshots contemporaneous with that that might even coming from a different location  way of separating those two things or it sounds too close in time to be coincidental in the nine one one call or is motivated to call nine one one right certainly but it's so once they get there the woman says oh that was me it now confirms the troopers minds that they're at the correct location and they go for the i don't they have to they have to see whether somebody is inside well sergeant fowler didn't wait to find out because he was already inside the house detaining my client so that's the problem is that the troopers are already do we know at what point in the conversation between some regard and miller that fowler has entered into the back we don't put them or actually i think the magistrate made finding specifically about sort of the time stamps on the audio recordings about when that entrance occurred he said that by the time just a few points first of all at the fowler entry and that was the first one again to focus on what he knew at the at the time of course he knew about the nine one one call and a woman screaming for help to get there and there's no no reason for him to think based on what dispatcher told him that those weren't connected he also knew a lot i said about mr sheriff and that he not only was he involved in tense situations with guns but he associated with a lot of people bad people and bad things that happened to people came out and that it's true that they were injured or they were and they weren't armed but it wasn't quite so innocuous because they would come at the side door as  any time there are shots fired and a woman heard saying stop help and he were in the vicinity of his home going to his house i think those are the critical facts i think the nine one one call is specifically a woman crying for help and then knowing that this is a person who is dangerous and cases have focused on that as part of the calculus in going to what's a reasonable belief certainly compel them in their community caretaking function not investigating sher anything unlawful that there was a risk that there was somebody dead or at least injured inside this residence they didn't know who was there there were they knew there were many people from the cars and and stellar had an who's the caller said she was saying stop help stop stop that's correct and where we'd be happy to supply the actual nine one one call that was part of the record so he does talk about screaming as well but he does he does say those in the transcript that's part of the magistrate judges report talks about stop help stop stop so but we do believe that under those very specific circumstances here the reasonable police officer who doesn't know what's happening in this house who is there where is the high power rifle had an obligation to go in to make sure everything was ok and that is that's what they did ok thank you thank you