standard that is to be used because it's difficult for judges sitting in judgment of their own recusal to apply it and it's whether a well informed observer would first seem would perceive a significant risk that  judge might resolve the case on something other than the merits and so that means somebody who's not inside the system but the general public because section four fifty five is about the integrity of the judicial system and making sure that the public perceives the judicial system is fair and so when you take a well informed observer and you ask the question when the chief judge of a district is the victim of a crime may judge in that under under that chief judge preside over that trial i think the answer is no there there really can't base it all on the public's understanding of how federal courts work or state courts work and most state courts most district judges would tell you we don't really care what the chief does well and that's what's so difficult about this is is that we do have i think a lot of judges federal judges would agree with that look they're  chief judge they're going to be there for six or seven years whatever but there are you know i think that there's a real concern about judges are people  and want to work in an environment that is pleasant and that where there'd their work is to their satisfaction of course the judge in this  case who was not included does not own any property in marin county and was not and that's what the what he focused on when the cases when that's all right he he what so he was the beneficiary of the expungement or filed but again that i think judge young took in in some ways a sensible view and said i don't own anything here there's there's really no risk that i'm going to decide this but that's not quite the standard the standard is whether there's a perception of that risk  from a well well informed observer so we see there there are unfortunately aren't really cases that are very much on point there certainly are cases about when the judge has a financial interest in the crime victim whether the judge may preside over that and what the courts seem to have said is ok needs to be something more than a to minimalists contact or de minimus connection but if there is a substantial connection to a victim of crime and the judge probably ought to  recuse him or herself the other concern i think that the judicial conference has identified as when there is a closed professional relationship between judges we need to be wary about certainly if if you know a judge comes off the bench and appears as counsel that's going to pose a problem this is not quite as serious as as that sort of problem but we also have i mean this is such a factually specific  question i think probably if this question comes up in the northern district of illinois we might not have a problem we've got two divisions we have over thirty judges the southern district of indiana in contrast has four active judges they all have to work very close they together as they face a judicial emergency as they're overwhelmed and i think that adds to the perception of a risk that you are you were in the so just have any and what the initial assignment of cases yeah i know that i like other sort of other just reeks in fact i think in northern district of indiana it's much more has to be much more random or me who's the randomness required exactly and well you know for example in the southern district of indiana judge young is going to get i think most cases coming out of that and so he's the only one there so it there's not quite as much randomness but all four judges do sit in indianapolis as well and of course the chief judge has so well informed observer would be able to see federal statutes that give the chief judge authority to assign particular cases that might be of you know particular concern the other thing is of course there are duties that the chief judge has in in just steering the ship and chief judge young and then chief judge magna stinson have have invoked those sort of authorities to bring in other judges from other that judge young would not be biased against him therefore right i think that the bias is not necessarily against or for mr sollars because it may be that you know we have a judge who really wants to stick it to the chief judge and the chief judge thinks that this is a real serious crime is it now and you know i'm not going to treat this very seriously so it's not necessarily for or against a particular client one thing that comes to mind from your question that the government raises as well doesn't this just open up avenues for people to to recuse judges and that's not the case here because there is this recusal is not based on actions that occurred after the prosecution was commenced so for example mr swallowers were to do something and suggested judge young that you know you need to get off the case i'm going to file lean again i mean you know those sort of threats that's that's gamesmanship that that sort of unless there are further questions i'll reserve the remaining two minutes may please a court brian writes for the united states i would like to start with what i think mr swallowers rhetorical point is about the chief judge i think on the centrally he's proposing a rule that if the chief judge of the victim of a crime the other judge much for cues but there are two factor problems with that first of all that at the time when judge langston some was the the victim she was not the chief judge second whenever judge young took the case with a sign the case he was actually the chief judge and courts including this court have been reluctant to order refusal in the middle of a proceeding and even if one were to accept the general rule that other judges underneath the ch the method the court orders from time to time that's not very clear it is i suppose regional and sequential so the judge young takes cases in evansville the other judges rotate so i think it's judge well barker and district of indiana has four federal courthouses and no judges assigned to each four so they somewhat each up to essential it which all of with all having indianapolis though there's a regional component and then the random sequential component i don't know this but i would have to presume the reason judge young was assigned at this case is because he was the one judge that wasn't named in new orleans which we think was an imminent one random but he didn't have any interest in the i i don't know that but i think that's a fair swell  as a general rule random assign the yes it's sequential which is random but but with the regional component as well of course judges aren't assigned cases outside of their normal rotation districts so and going back i think as signing judge young was an eminently reasonable response to this unusual case where if the one judge has the only judge not named as a yes and in general what courts have said about district wide recusal has to be highly exceptional circumstances i know this court and other circuits have dealt with cases where there was a bomb threat or a bomb attempt at the federal courthouse which this you understand why that's highly exceptional and one a judge because we had to go over here the case you know what's different is that was a physical shall i hear this defendant try to  problem of forty four fifty five a where here the liens are of course annoying and fixations i'm certain that the other colleagues the judicial colleagues didn't want that to happen to you but there is really no threat not only no violent threat but there's clerk of marion county to expunge usage like my brother i apologize i because if there is a very easy way to do things ok then your argument has a lot of sense to it because when you say look this is a ok but if there isn't an easy way to do this isn't it in judge practice got lucky ok and we are at the mercy of county important because whether it may be can quibble about whether she got lucky but as a matter of fact they were easily expired so in this case it least everybody acted as if they were easily startled with a case that of was issued tuesday to the recorder not to take illegal means such as service so my mind was actually slipping back to my days in state practice this came up a very similar circumstances and i don't recall the statute but there was a mechanism to know this or not at that time there was no statute to maybe a statute now it may have been an injunction it was done after the lien was filed and then the clerk was or not to take any further illegally marion county had as i write i think it was marion county had a problem with people doing this a few years ago and it may have been in much the common tatis and so but they were the same types of so it is certainly far afield of the bombs in the courthouse and it's at least a few notches down from a colleague being physically assaulted i think at that point time a lot of people looking outside might feel that the punishment held i don't think an annoyance or a nuisance meets the highly exceptional circumstances warranting refusal of the entire district court bench and we think that the southern district candled this properly and reasonably gave a judge the one judge was not a victim of this case to handle it and there are no further questions we would ask this court to affirm thank you triple the answer to your question is actually in our appendix at page forty three that's the order the judge crap entered she she found authority in the all writs act in the aldrich yeah i'm not certain that that gives the district judge the authority to its i n order to expunge these liens but it certainly has never been challenged one thing i'll say again in judge pratt's order judge young is named one of the cases from the score herrera valdes talks about when a judge essentially is sitting in review or has to deal with as an important part of the case the document in which he was earlier so certainly and again you know that the test under four fifty five a is whether there's a reasonable perception that you might be affected by that so if there aren't any further questions we just asked to rivers thank you very much