from between seven hundred percent to one hundred forty three percent less administrative so read on wages costs than we do however that one was slightly less than one and a half times less expensive included legislated wages and salaries of this particular county would be five hundred ten percent less as compared to the costs you know accounting the other thing that i found this analysis was that not only does not take on many of the responsibilities that these counties do such as libraries courts schools etc which in hawaii are taken up by the state finally and i'm sure you will remember the last time i appeared for you not for what i had to say but for what came after me  when he said i thought to myself wow that's a lot of money i wonder where you got that number from so i was surprised when the consultant for the special committee on governance presented that the average base salary for all u thousand two hundred forty nine thousand which is what our population is projected to be going to twenty thirty is between two hundred eighty thousand for city and one hundred sixty seven thousand for county so by any to make is and i don't know whether we lost in two thousand and thirteen and or not eight thousand dollars is a lot of money but but here's the point of it's much bigger than that and i never understood this about the i b m route worked for what the found it so you know i'm at the metropolitan planning where this ations on they have different functions and you know they are created for the different purposes but i wrote this not just for us but rather as something that could be used as an explanation to people who don't very little about what it is that we're doing here as a way of opening it up in a discussion of our method and how were you  ting this and why originally what we're doing so i'm going to go through those sections as well so i will go through them relatively quickly and how we can use that we can use it i was off i kind of just an introduction to any other if we're looking to present this to people outside of work so i think one of the tasks that i would like to discuss is once we have our findings once we've completed to some degree an overall report with something from all of the commissioners that is good put it into a power point presentation out our charter duty as a commission to study investigate organizations and methods of operations of all departments commissions boards and offices within the county and to determine what changes if any may be desirable within the policy this is a very broad is important given that it's our commission and this is something that comes back to something that i feel is being imported which comes down to the credibility of our commission in that our commission continuously exists it is not one that's appointed for specific topics or rather one that is developed over that period of time and therefore the commissioners who sit on our commission are not ones who have been chosen for any specific topic but rather are given a latitude to choose the topics that we want to investigate ourselves that level of independence i see as being very important to our credibility in that what we have and we have been asked in a more general sense according to the different abilities that we have to be set on this commission and then to apply are there are lots of them but it's one that sound been on the mind of many people in this county for a while and i think it's one that spin that to do a very close and thorough and systematic look through and i think that's something that  a car we think ok i have to choose between a toyota or honda or ford wore a cadillac or b m w or whatever it is they look at the alternatives that are available to them and then shoes based on those alternatives are which i think that that's very strong especially for this is to take a value approach instead of say what cars do i have available i say what do i want in a car i want to harvest economical i want a car that will fit my three screaming kids i want a car that i  that's what i'm looking for it doesn't matter if it's a toyota or honda a buick or cadillac as long as it fits the values that i have for that car now what it comes to is comparing our government systems it doesn't mean that we're trying to compare economy officials professionals they want to see government be used to taking into account all kinds of ideas and therefore our recommendations will be based on those values more so than whether we should choose one or in the short time that we look at this i've been keeping track of every single piece of correspondence every single piece of testimony every single piece of news literature everything that we've gotten and i have a list of over one hundred different types of communication on this topic that express to some degree of values that individuals have when they're looking at this answers to questions of what we care about what we care about when we talk about forms of government and therefore analysis of where they're at least one system of government or the other and that it's to us that we have to be sure that a change in any form of government would result in an overall positive outcome and it also allows us a little bit more flexibility flexibility in thinking that well it's not a choice between what is the traditional council manager form of government or the traditional strong marriage but that values can be expressed in a very hybrid if you will but a very specific ways in which you can do that one of the things that have been said many times is that you know there are thousands hundreds of different forms of government that touch on these kinds of things and that's a testament to using a value based system because those differences those small changes in between those systems represent what those individual voters care about in their form of government and that can differ between different constituencies now while we've identified a lot of different values and we'll go through what those values were we are only actively analyzing a selection of that total problem so i'm going to go through a lot of those diff there's a less that i went through with the special committee as well  there's one that we have within some of the internal documents that we've sort circulated amongst ourselves but we've chosen to look at a very small select section of that total problem understanding that there are other values other criteria that will influence whether we choose one section one or another i don't think it's allows us to do is because we're not writing and we're not writing a charter amendment that allows us to be a little bit more general in our recommendation in saying this is the kind of thing that we would like to s fighting for credibility ultimately our credibility as a commission is extremely important to the validity of our research and the recommendations that we get and i have here is five items that we should think about when we're trying to develop our report in order to gain that credibility on the structural analysis a transparent one on something that's inclusive and this is an important one because even though we may have our own personal thoughts about what it is sweet search for evidence of both confirms and this confirms our personal assertions our understanding of these kinds of things i may have some personal viewpoints of these valleys and my job then as a researcher is not to find confirmatory evidence to my value is to find this confirmatory evidence to what i feel and that's how you find a truly transparent and fair analysis i'm not proving myself correct i'm trying to disprove myself and that's the same for everybody here is that we should be constantly try disprove our own thoughts on what we think is right or wrong it regards to these kinds of things another important topic is what i call attribute sion and it it seems like a fancy term but essentially it's are the fighting  what we are testing is it due to a council damage or or is it due to something else and if it's due to something else then it's not because it was a council manager and we should disregard that kind of that kind of thing so we have to take it so we've got to attribute the values that we have to what is the culture management system and we have some examples of that will go through some examples of that in the in the analysis so i finally want something that's comparable to my model he's a very unique we talk about how special it is i grew up  of what people want to see and their form of government they want to see professionalism they want to see other than a limited amount of turnover within their county officials they want to improve for vision of services they want to be sure that their garbage  collected they want to make sure that the police are writing they want to make sure that their fires are put the fires are put out they want saving face they want to see that we're constantly searching to save money within our government and they care about the house or the counties ability to perform the task that it set for which is kind of that that financial savvy of the county has good by rates and is better able to perform the tasks that it has for itself they want to see a county council that's limited in its influence on what is and balances between the different government systems they want to make sure that there's due process and everything that stuff that there is out of a confirmed process of the way things are done in that process is fine with me about why they want to make sure that we're following that charter which is something that's agreed upon by all people within all there's a lot of values there some of these ows compete with one another an example of that is economy efficiency and provision of service if you want really good service it's going to cost a lot of money the more services you want economies provide the more money that the company's going to have to get in origin for those services so it many ways optimizing every single one of these valleys is a very very difficult thing to do and in many ways quite frankly mere appear possible so the ones i have to read or the ones that we are explicitly taking a look at the other r six are system which is where the ca or the county administrator officer is chosen by the legislative body which in this case would be the county council a week mary first to an elected mayor this who acts as that or the public the administrative officer and also has power to appoint department heads within that system very generally the kind of different systems that we have and in between that these are not discrete categories it's not like you fit into one box or another box there's a huge amount of variation that fits in between  don't choose to do a charter member that is against our recommendations that's not to say that we're rights and what our recommendations are by that at least there's a communicated framework of why they choose that or why we choose that and if they choose to use something that doesn't fit with what the special committee does or we do there's a very clear understanding that it's because there's something else that they're caring about that we are not analyzing whatever that other thing is and it makes very clear  that it's not for the reasons that we have stated as what those reasons are so there's some connection between all of this and the way that we do that ultimately we hold some level of accountability to the county council on what it is that the ultimately choose i'd do and we have to make our message clear enough so that if they choose to do something contrary to that it's against our value system which may or may not be correct i'm not saying that it's right that they would at least have to reconcile with that difference between a hope that they would have to reconcile with that so what it is ok so professionalism will be adopted these are just basic hypothesis questions that we're looking at along with the commissioners that are looking at that specific topic well the adoption of a council manager system of government need to prove professional qualifications for executive branch employees is it the council matters or system that leads to additional professional will a council manager form of government to lower employment cost within the co better fire services better police services whatever it is that we're looking at for the provision of service for  to two of the members that sit on that commission as well of all their report they've been kind enough to share a lot of the research that they've done on this specific topic with us i see you have a representative david moore and i think it's really interesting i would suggest that you guys do this is look at the difference between his presentation to quite counsel and to our old counsel and it's it's really interesting when you look at the difference between his presentation it's the same power point of the topics of discussion is where you start getting to the interesting counties so mostly what i did was look at some of the academic literature and that represents academic literature represents a systematic approach to answer these questions so i looked researchers at universities all of which have to go through this conflict of interest statement for all of their research stating that they're doing it's about using funds from any private organisations organisations that we have some influence on their findings o now there are some limitations to this but these limitations are across all of the different documents to documentation that we're looking at and some of them are specific to academic literature so they don't feel abilities are always a difficult thing it's hard to find data that looks like a these now the ones that you are going to want to look at here are that c m a factor called the county manager effect a plus in the case that they found a positive effect of the council manager form of government over the stronger form of government as zero found that there was no impact between a council manager form of government and a stronger form of government and their analysis of a lot of this looks use the young same data source in understanding what it is what is  ecology units and they were both down to minimal population sizes of ten k and they include all the let go of the above it so on there are including thousands of administrative units where there are townships or counties or cities or hamlets or whatever it is that they want to be called thousands of them some of them do it thousands over periods of time so the best ones don't only look at those counties or those in the street of units at one period of time or rather they look at them over twenty a twenty year period or twenty five year period and they identify at what point they may have switched from a council manager form of government to a stronger form of government  majority of this research found that there was no effect between a council manager form of government and a county manager form or a strong mayor form of government and it getting to them that simply because the chief executive officer was chosen by the legislative branch as opposed to by an elected mayor that did a fact the provision of service that was provided within those and mysterious rather there has to be there for other of phoenix i know it's a big city it's not here and i apologize for that and i only say that because he's been in the broad scheme of things he's once considered the best man in city in the world and i think that's a relevant comparison from corporation and so we knew that they were they were put in putting the muscle on minutes to buy equipment and so you know and still i i i think there are lots of can fantastic things to come out of there and i learned a lot when i read about that but be public servant for you know as long as it's i have been when i listen to to a consultant when i want to know what an answer is i want somebody as paul said earlier that has no conflicts of interest has transparency in the way that the methods are used to create the document and that there is no law no hidden agenda and that there's going to be no benefit to them as a result of what their findings are and so i b m is a great company they do phenomenal work extraordinarily global organization but they didn't have agendas when they did this and this is where the funny option comes in and when we get to david more of this is testimony to the special committee we can see that when the question was actually asked to have about the i b m white paper and about the efficiency  immediately said no he said no it's not because the manager that causes economy inefficiency within this it's this other thing it's other stuff that doesn't something he didn't say quite but so this is this is where we get into what we're talking about here within this i b m white people and some of the limitations that we can have in this now that's not to say because we see here i mean quite frankly there are studies academic literature studies that have found that council not a forms of government were better they have performed better in certain situations to stronger forms of government so it's our place to say you know that one is better than the other or rather that there is strong evidence indicating there is probably less so what might explain some of these differences some of the differences were and how little efficiency and economy was measured in almost every case in the academic literature efficiency and economy was service spending per capita so they took budgets for different departments police fire public works parks and recreation that example that they make up a very large portion of total budgets and the divide that by the size of the by the size of the administrative service funding per capita another way as well as the full time equivalents measurement for us so there are some differences in the way of it which economy and efficiency is measured by are variations and those variations may explain some of these degree why there's differences with people supports there was a limitation that are spread between all of us that there is a difference is in the geographic area studied that a lot of these were for very limited geographic areas especially the smaller back immediately gained of an adoption or that there would have to be an upswing in that in any gains and he's very adamant that there are gains and i'm not there to to disagree with him but that those efficiency gains are instead gained because research that if we were to move from a council house or form of government to a stronger form of government that any changes in the amount of spending per capita i would not be to do that change but rather  this leads nowhere near to what we would recommend rather it helps to guide us and i think the next step after this is to take a really close look at that professionalism and turn over pieces and we'll test david morris you accept your will at will you know so and you have a lot of you have a policy a vision that you're you're you're peddling on that you believe in otherwise you can't do it yourself so you know when i think that most of my career has been brought to department of agriculture and i was the director of rural development for the state of arizona so honestly most of my experience stands on a small population a rule farming ranching type of community state and federal land eighty percent of the land in arizona is owned by the state and by the federal government i think your data may be a little more or less fit those two states particularly are i am locked in ways that we are landlocked by the ocean so when i look to these things none of i could not really find any hourly you know annual compensation for what i was really looking for are qualifications because i'm really not interested quite frankly the number the number doesn't fascinate you it is what is the substance or like martin luther king would say what is the content of the character that you're looking for as a county administrator i mean that to me is more vital overseas and i swear to god when i came back i kissed the ground like literally kissed the ground to be back in the u s because i didn't realize what a phenomenal system of government that allows us to even have been successful so these are just you know minimum qualifications bachelor's degree and relevant field business a county manager the title itself and that's pretty significant because most counties in the mainland they have either been consulted but it's a lot and counties it's really apples and oranges in this to me was in the article comparable to us even though it's mainland it doesn't consider all the unique characters and valley it's something that i think that we can look to as as an example  to neutral so when i get to the city of mesa city manager deputy city manager you know again it's neutral it's based upon what are the look at the charter recently and you know the other charities as well this charter is very i think more slanted with all the state functions and i'm not that familiar with that this is so such a unique situation where the state has such a heavy hand in the day to day principles and policies county government which to me is even more frightening from a change perspective because from a cost perspective you know you become a city normally you incorporate you say you know what i've grown up and guess what i don't need you stay right i really don't need you fell government i'm a bum i know that you and that's kind of scary to me because you know you do transition that to that something like that i'm thinking what revenue are we going to lose from the state and the federal government have we figured that out you know that would be my next big big question what is the cost of that change to our existing revenue stream and if you can but i think it's a worthy question to ask because based upon what i see i don't see independent school districts i don't see a lot of independents and and we rely on a system that is  it's not a requirement to have it but it's more mostly with so what we'd like to do is is find out if past managing directors had resumes which would meet the qualifications so moving forward turnover costs and we i was able to speak to a few more division heads this month but i see a few too and that the comments were pretty pretty much agree i'm afraid difference you know with the wholesale turnover that occurs you know as a result of a four year election even though not every director is replaced you know a lot of them you know are replaced in continuity with the government yes only in one position only the division has level and if for a period it ranges from two months to the new director is a quick study and gets up to speed very quickly to six months or longer if what what i'm hearing from this point now say i think he's trying to think concert through this tour and the answer that i would hope for that is that i a manager i'm you know this is very much for me as well if i were to put i could into a department head situation and let something like this where i know that my the amount of time that i've worked in opposition is largely dependent on whether the very gets reelected does that give me much incentive to give a give to be to try to affect  if we had departed headed there who knew that if i was going to do a good job i'm staying here for twenty years it's what we dance yeah and it was let's give it a different aspect of this which was actually pointed out at a december article  and the mayor both leaving continuity has helped the division head level to this if we had a you know a council manager form of government assuming that you know directors would still there's still be turned over in every is from a lot of the really high level of research that we're looking at in comparing the two different systems that an average council manager is there for seven years yeah most of the boats if we ever figure out definitively what the median depends and it and i think so much of it depends on the reasons for or often you know just you know i have to do with the council or the board of supervisors you know one of you want to get rid you know the other day i touched on this but i want to say it more clearly than i did or feel like i did so if we had to you know comparing a council manager or government manager i would assume would hire the it's so but there's there's some interesting things happen when you have a county manager or higher in the directors with an open ended you know i'm here for a while but why we there's no reason that that means you're going to be want to find it as close a match to maui as i could terms of the community and see what it was using the other structure of government and they have a board i found that napa county and know the cost of living adjustment is nearly identical to my camp that says so then i looked at what they were paying a typical director verma they have twenty four compared to our  fifteen and and they were paying one hundred eighty eight thousand dollars on average to each teach director of a position and in my county is paying hundred twenty idea is we're going to recruit better talent and have better retention at the executive level of our staff then we would also be lowering costs the same time at the same yet the same time i think it's more likely that we would be you know keeping and you know we would have to move in the direction of that but if we were on target with them or the same level as them we could expect salaries to increase it to write their level of like one million four thousand dollars that's just salaries you know you have other costs associated with with that you know the managing director for the chief salary  would expect if you were the i would expect it's cost almost two million dollars more you know and that's not that i'm not saying that is a good you know two million dollars is  big huge chunk when we're talking about management you know structure management in the improvements that they're saying can be made with you know this talent having this incident but it's it is certainly i don't see a situation where the cost goes down  but that's the that's the best comparison that i could i could do you know i think the problem i was having if i did a private embarrassing among a lot of communities we would find some sort of average but i feel it also gives us an understanding of what exactly what that's about it's you know it's just to keep either ended the way that you look at it will be the lens that you choose to choose to look at it through and i think more than anything this is this is of the where the salesman kind of example here you know be where the guy who comes into says this is how it's going to be because that salesman is going to come in with an example that's the exact opposite you know the kind of the i think it will raise other questions that are that are being asked and i think that if we can get it done a manner that those questions could be asked  if for those of you that have studied specific areas to write those findings out there for it i mean even if it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be yes it could even be a powerful life it could be grants process and accountability or remember at the end of the report we also thank you said that we would soon also consider the county manager system and that might be a card or something that we're tying into  my question is this her garden was what our report say is we're still going to have issues that we either way where accountability professionalism and checks and balances right yeah because those are not under our system now therefore we have to make sure that they were also under the new system so by that i mean employee evaluations certain guidelines and procedures set  every department job descriptions a way to evaluate our county governments and see if they're doing a good job yet so that's getting into the recommendations right but what i'm saying is regardless of what we did you know determined even if we say really doesn't matter we still need to come out with some strong recommendations as far as to accountability of the of the government itself yet so that it's kind of like there's a two part question that we haven't had too much about the second part but it does is a county jan great public testimony so that so then the findings will be that you know it's really answering that question you know is that you know yes or no it does it does make a difference but then we can also point out that the differences that people see are attributed to these things that are you know these and they can be achieved and this in these other ways or they are you know they are achieved in these other ways they just get tributed to you know the structure of government rather than whatever it is it's responsible for so so that would be a record for example a good one as a dashboard you know you know that that's plan and even within the two what are your plans they're not they're required benchmarks for us all that then then you know you've effectively made it you know it's not transparent so that's a that's a value that we could say  originates i think it was a place you know like that all the things that people attribute to the county manager those are things that we would get if if council doesn't make them priorities policy yeah   paul today probably did the most in terms of synthesis synthesizing information and any did on some to have control over i don't want you need to kind of movement that direction you know you can keep getting as much research as you want but without synthesizing the commission really doesn't have any sense yet of canada and europe you're not expected to stay but you do need to have a sense of where you want to go with the report but until you can synthesize information enough so that you can say whole and i think everybody else needs to do that as well ok so yeah