return of non contraband property to a criminal defendant after his or her criminal case has been completed counsel work is yet to come by as i understand it quite a few files were digital files are property that he's entitled to then it could either be remanded for the district court to the district court and the government could say look this is everything if that was the case then i think the case would be over however my client says i can't tell you the names of these files but i believe and i did send him the fifty page document showing the names of all files that have been copied he believes there are things that  made hardress available to our expert but we don't have a directory so i can send my expert and i did and copy quite a few files but  you run her book i can't answer on the magazine because i haven't looked at that but i can say with a hard drive i can some of talk about hard drive talk i'm trying to trying to figure out why hard drives are so unique if a thousand page book according to you twenty two fifty three and one that has child pornography is totally for the people i think what you're saying is the person takes the book and did my trouble is that what congress is saying is if you put some child pornography in a thing or in a book maybe a thousand other thousand page books and ten in my mind a book that's harry think all the pages are part of the book well i've only but if i take the book and split it and put each chapter on a separate file on my hard drive that's different then you wouldn't then the book is sa the visual files that are child pornography are contraband the subject or for sure but i think you have after you bought this hard right you added illegal and legal files and i think the question is this is obligated to buy them is it the government or is it the booth and number one if there was an agreement in the court that is very specifically identified was that an f b i agent was it some other type of a shoot out and that we get the best inventory and hand or description of what is on the me to you like a contract specific enough to be specifically informed of performing to me it does sound like they're saying what to do what is to provide the inventory is that to be your government well i can tell you that my understanding is that the kind of directory that the defense could produce with its access is called in and case directory it's going to list the folders but not files i think it would have to be the government to believe that will forty one she says that in this circumstance is the case is over no longer needed this evidence it's not and i think will forty one says the presumption is the defendant gets this back and i think that w not oppose that correct in other words your interpretation of forty one g is that he is entitle who all of the non contraband files that are on that that drive that hard drive cooperative endeavor in the district court judge sat what i'm going to request is that the expert the defense counsel be given access to the f b i agent and that they work together to create directory and a listing of the files that are given to the defendant and then everybody work to return the property as a fan and identify unfortunate that process broke down because communication was perceived to be futile between the defense attorney and the government acts heard so that directly was never created there was discussion about if we could just even as recently as today if we could just get the directory i think it's important for the court to know that gave was given unfettered access to that material and was actually able to remove thousands of files the only restriction the government put on it was that we have the defendant expert certified under penalty of perjury that he did not move any car any contraband but we didn't check to see whether that was the case we just took him at his word as an officer of the court and he certify that he did not remove any contraband but he did remove thousands of non contraband sued the defense from the defense expert through counsel presumably to the defendant himself and then he was given months to compare the content of that material to the directories and it was specific reference to the directory that a defense expert was able to create so it's not a situation where the government locked up the evidence and said you can't have it we're not going to give you access to it we gave them access and it appears that he's been given thousands of files so i think it goes back to the initial question where we out how is it that we could move forward with this proceeding that the only thing that this court could do is just clarify that is the fairness or and under will forty one it's his motion  and he's failed to identify specifically which files it was that he wanted and this point in the proceedings fell identify which files have not been returned to him and it was at that point in the district court proceeding when the judge in the rule forty from the defense next which was made available to the government for purposes of compiling directory of files or folders that thank you and in fact he those are the items that were allowed the two dell laptop computers but one compaq computer several season hard drives so it's only the material which again was ordered forfeit those devices arguably could just be forfeited in their entirety because that is what the government argued initially in the motion for eternal property that if that device was used to obtain the child pornography or for its story child pornography  a hard drive or in the computer whatever it is the good files can't you know the government can't just say we're due for putting the whole thing it has to somehow get the good segregated from the bad correct well i should have come back to add a response after i gave a yes or no answer the initial question of is that property subject to being returned in this particular case or these facts i would say the commission of the offense the entire device is subject to forfeiture including all of its contents so the defendant in any particular case could then come forward with a motion for return of property and if they could specifically this in light of the government's concession that it's willing to allow the return of non contraband files on the larger hard disk setting aside the with the government object to that well we believe that is the moment short answer i guess one word answer yes because not that we don't want to cooperate with you it's narrow discrete universe of what he wanted initially it's everything which means potentially millions of files so we could imagine a scenario where we produce a directory perhaps it is twelve inches if there are three or four hard drives that we give that to the defense and highlights various files but then the problem becomes you have to open those files and then we've given all of those you can still say well i want other files so we went through that process and fortunately try to this is a possible candidate for mediation the mediation may not have to last very long particularly if there is a new expert who can hone in on whatever it is that has not been completed in the prior production of the directory  minutes and so you can have three minutes thank you very much i just want to give our side of this sort of history of what's happened my understanding from talking to my expert is that we cannot the defense the kind of access we are giving to the hard right we cannot produce the kind of directory that would list every file folder so when mr got to says that  comprehensive directory has been produced that isn't accurate from our perspective and i think that you know i i have no objection to mediation at all but i think that we would need to rexton from this court that to produce a directory that lists files that that i can give to mr gladding said because he's the one who believes there's unproduced files that if my expert can't produce that then the government should be required to produce that directory that can be mailed to mr gladding for his review otherwise i think it will be in the same and lists us breakdown that is the main thing i wanted to is that i i would like to resolve the case but i think that this question of either you know the government has to certify we produced on contraband or it has to give us a directory and i think you know in most seizure cases we can would you are well let's leave things there counsel the case judge you just argued will either be submitted or not depending on what the panel the size and the court will adjourn thank you