based on the opinion the board did not adequately consider the content of this prior art instead the board relight far too heavily on other prayer art especially kneeler and pewter those findings to laurent lawrence is forth at least four key factual findings for a meal or that cannot possibly be imputed to laurent and these are all on page nine of the decision first the board criticize meal or for teaching away from hot forming learn there's been a lot of argument on the melting point of zinc being four hundred twenty degrees centigrade and i can understand that but the claims go up to an ally which has a melting point of seven hundred eighty two degrees which is actually much much hotter than the melting point of aluminum and if you can hot form a aluminum at those under those conditions and learnt then why not i think our analogy that has even more favorable melting properties you would be two hundred forty degrees centigrade above the melting point of aluminum it isn't one hundred degree hot for me temperature your only one hundred twenty degrees centigrade above the melting point of this ally the melting curve is actually more favorable now this was really one of the main differences though so this argument that you're in within the melting range although i there is a more gets harder and harder that's actually shown in both of these curves you can see the look on the right and you go higher and iron content for aluminum the melting temperatures go up and you see the sod line which is the start of melting and then the upper line is where your you reach all liquid those temperatures go way up and you get you get more and more iron and the alloy and this is what happens very quickly during hot forming so so even though i know they are both liquid at that temperature the tabloid is described as large as forming only be maintained for a few seconds lauren maintains innate so that teaches away from hot for me because hot for me requires heating on the order of minutes laurent in the example describes a nine inch agreed temperature being maintained for five and thirteen to fourteen so our position on this rejection is that we're both metals were known to format like compounds and were both metals were disclosed in lawrence it would have been obvious to substitute zinc or the higher melting think iron alloy for the  patent here at appendix page a thirty two that look at that stamp and they have the the coating demarcated imagine what's going to happen when you press that other high pressure stamp if you've got liquid in the code that intuitively it seems like a problem second problem is that and and there's usually that is true  staff that has a diagram of the the course of heating through high for me and showing move the content of these serials and they describe this is it based coating and it starts out with some  twenty degrees and then it starts to alloy than it did but at the time you finish heating this when you are in this case it's seven hundred eighty and eight hundred fifty degrees c there has been a lot of energy taluk l i formed but there is a lot of liquid zech still in the at the time this goes to the press and and so there is liquid zinc in the coding and that's only the first half of it the other issue is that if you look at page  a one sixty seven which unfortunately is a black and white figure but it is reproduced i believe that our refill page thirty three that page thirty three there is a diagram of papers ation temperatures and all of the comments in the prior art where the artist's were same liquids the zinc is a problem with hot for me it won't work with hot for me and the things they mention where it's going to melt and flow technical staff that said the melting and vaporization were going to be a problem that's going to run off and follow the tools but also they mention vaporization because it it's like taking water above the boiling point of water concerned the things were going to melt they were concerned that things were going to vaporize their concern that it just wasn't going to work and what's happened here is where we're going back with a another lead is trying to find a scientific explanation for why it works and that's kind of saying well here's what the artisan should have thought but the fact is and the evidence shows that what the artisans did they is that this isn't going to work the patent office considered all of this evidence  and and gave a very thorough opinion and the question is whether there's substantial evidence to support those facts that they found and we believe that the evidence is not just stachel but it's compelling what we have here is not a a a reasonable expectation of success but a very firm belief that the expectation that it wasn't going to work failure didn't work didn't it didn't work your honor that's correct as is the requesters trying to explain why this is obvious we have three different explanations for why it works one of them says that of the the alloy with iron actors and that's what keeps the run off the liquid from running off another says that it's there are explanations scientific explanations in the case of every invention as to why something worked if it didn't work we wouldn't be here so everything works and presumably everything has a scientific explanation and it's and it may be a lot easier to to find those scientific explanations years after the fact that it was at the time at the time there there wasn't a an issue about the how life before people knew what her metallic alloys were never talks of because the whole purpose of miller is to is to make a steel sheet with this inner metallic ally formed on but meyler at temperatures that are below the temperatures that we have a hot form has this coating is liquid and he goes to a great deal of trouble to make sure that nothing touches that at the till he has passed it through cooling comes out and then only then does he pass it over a roller where it touches something we're going to take the material that's that's hundreds of degrees higher than what mailer is talking about and we're going to put it on a stamp crusher most people didn't think that would that would work the ordinary person or to think that would work so the  sometimes sometimes inventions can be guesswork i wasn't there when this actually happened so i don't know how this particular decision was made to try zinc but anybody who said anything how to do it there are a couple of different examples and it works so so we have something that people didn't think would work we have quotes even after the fact then it may not be impossible that what we love you see that it works but but back then there's there's no prior art that they have shown that preceded april of two thousand watt that that showed danger area and i'm sure there are ways that they tweak it to make it better but but the what appears to be happening is that we know that the alloy forms the diagrams here equilibrium diagrams so show you what these things look like at a efforts or if they're setting what it doesn't tell you was how this material is going to behave physically when you when you do something to it when you stamp it yeah it doesn't show whether there oxide layers that form it doesn't show what she has strengths doesn't it that so you can look at this and say well somebody should have looked at that said she's developing temperatures up here that's going to be an alloy there that's not going to be that much of a problem but the fact is that they did know there was going to be liquid saying  even their own technical staff and the paper that i just pointed to says there's going to be liquid saying there are a couple of other publications by their technical staff and they cited in our brief this is going to be a problem of the if everybody thought that it was going to be a problem because just common sense you're going to hot stamp something that has a liquid in it and you're going to be above not just the melting temperature but above the we're getting an explanation for why it works but no evidence that outweighs what was of record and that office as to that that shows that somebody actually understood that it would work or had it's reasonable where well it was known from warrant to form an aluminum based although it compound was also known to form a zig based allied compound where do you want to go by the admission or whether you want to go by bloom off and laura disclosing so so why not just substitute one for the going to form is going to form before you get into that stamp in those two to ten hours that is a very long time so our position is that there's really nothing here you're for me and i count on by the heating that was known in the article was not from laurent it's been admitted now that it was thank you thank you