ethnic and religious minority group the assyrians in two thousand and sixteen are secretary of state and john kerry said that what happened to the disease and the a syrian christians at the hands of isis was a genocide and despite this the current administration is seeking to remove mr thomas from the united states and according to iraq a country that he has absolutely no recollection of and a country where he faces an almost certain risk of torture death and serious persecution in two thousand and nine mr called isis in two thousand and nine there were no shia militias which we are even hearing about the news every day today now so as you're going through this what is the relevance of the identity of the person in other words if conditions are the same or worse or better the identity of who is in charge or who's doing the persecuting doesn't appear in our cases to be relevant i mean if i treated them better or worse that's interesting but just because it's a different label i don't understand what relevance that has your honor it's not just that it's a different label or a different group during the day when the person getting it is that the risk is  the i can point to just one i think important back there would only them story my position and that is that in two thousand in the st two years after the u s invasion up until right around two thousand and ten the country of iraq the christian population in that country was around one million five hundred thousand and in two thousand and nineteen we filed our brief that number had dropped to under two hundred thousand these are numbers that are included in the expert opinions and expert reports that we included with our motion to reopen so i understand that the court may have a concern that yes things were bad in two thousand and nine and they were and there's no arguing that but they're significantly worse in two thousand and nineteen and i think just that i mean we've included your honour's but you know there are other things that point in an opposite direction for example  worse than two thousand and nine and then in two thousand and nineteen and so the question for us isn't how we read the record but whether the agency abused its discretion in reading it differently so if there are two possible ways to understand the evidence holistically don't we have to uphold what the agency did in reading it they're writing your honour's it's my position that the agency reopened would have to show that he will suffer persecution or torture toward that at the hands of the government in two thousand and fourteen isis as we all know came about as a response to that the iraqi government formed these people's militias that were primarily formed of individuals of the shiites big these individuals are supported and backed financially and otherwise with weapons by to the christians was not danger from the government that is part of the argument your honor i think there was in two thousand and nine there was a general and a missed order christians in the country and there were many islamic militant groups that who are extremely anti american extremely inside christian supported directly by iran and the persecution and the government the iraqi government and so that is part of the argument that these were is that right there is that requirement though  pointed out early early in your comments that our government was not returning people because the record intake found in two thousand and nine but is that why there was he's from the united states and so it's been a commonly known thing among that community that you know hey if you get an order removal it's essentially worthless because iraq will not take you and so willing i mean i yes i think he would i just i don't know if that if there is a resolution that could be had in this case but yes i think he w is with regard to two timeliness the the board indicated that this motion to reopen was not filed in a timely manner it's pretty clear from their own regulations that change in significant change in country conditions is an exception to the time limit that is listed in the regulations and so i believe here we've shown a significant change in circumstances in the country conditions in iraq  and just want to make one more point about this young militias these groups do not exist in two thousand and nine they are now part of the government they're officially in mesh within the iraqi military infrastructure and these groups are heavily supported financially and militarily by iran they're a direct threat to him and any other christian in the country so i think that we have shown that the board of use discretion when they deny his motion to reopen i think is a general matter that people ought to have their day in court if they if they ask for it and mr thomas says yes and partially maybe there's an argument that it's his own fault because he didn't raise in two thousand and nine but he hasn't had the ability to argue to an immigration judge that he would be unsafe if he's returned what we're asking is that the court reopen his case so that he can at least every opportunity to present that to an immigration judge and i reserve the rest of my time for a bottle thank you you may do that well mr fisher we're ready to hear from you but i don't know that your honor i don't know from the rep i'm not sure that's clear from the record either also as apology not or is not this not if i think that's something that we can take traditional notice of in terms of what relief at the time that make any difference to our analysis or to the question of the exercise of discretion correct the reason it makes  our analysis the only relevance that that has is because there's no baseline for him to fall back on he is still in the position where he has the burden of showing that there's been a changing conditions so he still needs to show the country conditions are changed and he can fall back on the record or record holding saying that he didn't have a cause of that he didn't have a claim for relief back that  to be fair in this case because petitioner simply didn't present any evidence of conditions in two thousand and eight and even a day with will of course he did not so now my question is use and you should what i'm saying is that in particulars appeal brief to the board and is briefed to this court he doesn't discuss the two thousand and eight report at all he doesn't discuss the evidence on both sides so he doesn't provide any baseline to the court what we have is looking at the two thousand a report and finding support in it that christians were persecuted at that time as did the agency and i have another question for you to why you're being side tracked a little bit and that is to respond to the issue of whether in the analysis nineteen so i guess the way i would answer that is to say that it might make a difference but we don't have any discussion of the state or level of persecution by the  that make it worse or isn't relevant to whether it's workers i don't think it's it's it's what i think that it's big identity of the persecutor as you articulate shouldn't matter the level of persecution it's just a change in country conditions we have to look at what the level of danger he would have faced in two thousand and nine and it's not for people in the same position as mr thomas has one comment specifically and a decision identified a significant change in country conditions because of the potential for visibility to those that may be interested in torturing petitioner or the likelihood that he would be specifically targeted for torture and we have expert reports indicate that the law is a passe document thus increase thomas visibility because he has to pass through checkpoints and he will be readily and immediately identified because he has no identity document in two thousand and eight when people were not removed to iraq we have virtually no no indication that there are individuals would be as visible as mr thomas will be now  being removed under the herms so to me providing one way transport without identity documents with the other factors that are weighing against him and so i would like you that point that we have i'd change in country conditions relevant to this petitioner because we have individuals returning with no identity documents we have increased boring we have all these other factors that have and have been discussed and are in the record so i guess the way i would i need to answer that is that that's a change in just personal circumstances but are you are you are you arguing that it coupled with the change in country tradition well i guess the point that i'm driving is that the country conditions were such that individuals who no matter who they were weren't simply weren't there when that identity documents i believe the correct  from the from the experts people were deported or returned back to iraq as long as they had valid passport so we have people returning with identity documents facing that i concededly bad situations but in two thousand and eight that country had and was not receiving individuals without identity documents now we have a country and so not just this or thomas he happens to just be  has changed and there the potential for visibility to those who might seek to torture individuals such as you know christians and u s affiliated people and now we have a phony as well so it struck me that we have these vi decisions recognizing this as a changing country conditions and so that's the question that i wanted to put to you  is that not a change in country conditions significant to petition or and significant to the country as well so i follow your question we're getting we're stretching our powers of judicial notice i'm not sure where that comes from it comes from another decision and i'm not sure what the date is so i guess i would have to look at it more carefully well th question if you look at the two thousand and eight report it doesn't say that the report's brazen the passes and it doesn't identify the persecutors when they talk about it does but i have a right as you might expect i have some policy issues and i think the my client would with a judging a final order as being as counsel said essentially worthless i mean under that under that construct then one receives the order and then can wait until there's a change in whatever at whatever point it becomes serious or whatever point it becomes realistic to challenge it whereas he could have challenged it at the time but i don't think it's  and therefore there's no change in country conditions and you i'm sure your next question is going to be well what difference does it make if you was subjected to torture then any subjected to torture now then shouldn't we protect him and the answer is shouldn't he have pursued the release and stayed within the ninety day deadline i think we have i think we understand your position i lost my power here for several minutes over your time to do my colleagues have further questions are we ready for  when analyzing these types of cases and and so i think it was it was proper for the judge in this case to have looked at that report i will point out that i just saying hey iraq is bad now i there was some comparison although it's not the dive level comparison that the government seems to think is necessary there was some comparison and that argument was made and preserve the record thomas and i'm just still unclear as to why this one in particular is there for your honor what we are asking your honour's excuse me we're asking for today is not that you grant mr thomas can't relief or any other form of relief that's not within at least i don't believe your abilities we're just asking the have is being or we're asking those case be reopened so that he can go in front of an immigration judge and prove his case and have a chance to argue these issues in front of a