good morning today's hearing addresses a key program in increasing public safety and protecting the safety of first responders the fire grants house fire departments across the country increase their capabilities to fight fires respond to medical emergencies handle disasters and better confront all the disaster modern fire service the authorizations for the assistance of four firefighter grants program for the staffing for adequate fire emergency response or the safer program are both facing expirations these gr programs provide funding for local fire departments ones in every state and every district to obtain equipment and training and to increase their ranks of firefighters the fire grants were created to help local communities keep up with the needed manpower and equipment to handle the increasing array of t following two local fire departments the growing duties include emergency medical services fighting fires at the wild land urban interface and serving as first responders to terrorist attacks and natural disasters in this economy maintaining the equipment and training and personnel safety to and safely excuse me and safely respond to all calls is increasingly difficult or impossible in many jurisdictions fire departments around the country have been forced to lay off firefighters and forego needed equipment and training there for the over six billion dollars of grants that have gone to fire departments since two thousand have been integral to maintaining public safety many communities this year and last year fire departments in my district in new mexico have benefited from a half a million dollars of this funding fire remains a serious problem in the u s more people die in fires in the u s and from all other natural disasters combined on average thirty seven hundred citizens die in structure fires each year and over one hundred firefighters were killed in the line of duty in addition to the there are thousands of injuries and over ten billion dollars in property lost each year fires are often a surprise to their victims but this to six alice that injuries are not random demographic shape who is most likely to die in fires vulnerable populations like the poor the elderly suffer the most males are more likely to die than females and minorities and those without a high school education hope that witnesses today will offer insight on why fires just proportionately affect these individuals and how these trends can be changed i would also like to learn today how we can improve upon the contribution paragraphs make to public safety and the safety of first responders i hope the witnesses will offer insight on the best balance to serve the needs of fire departments and the chairman thank you for holding the hearing today to discuss reauthorization of the department of homeland security's firefighters grant program i want to welcome all of our witnesses and thank you for coming here today to testify on these essential programs especially want to thank  to firefighters grant program and the staffing for adequate fire and emergency response safer acronym safer program both provide much needed assistance to fire departments across our country in rural areas many communities rely upon all volunteer departments to respond to fires and other emergencies the equipment needed to fight fires and save lives and properties is costly and requires departments to have certain minimum response capabilities regardless of whether they are protecting a community of a few thousand people or a large city of a few hundred thousand people acquiring these capabilities are particularly difficult in many small community communities that do not possess the financial resources necessary to provide support to these departments as such firefighter grants have proven absolutely vital for rural and volunteer fire departments that have small tax bases and the least ability to acquire such equipment in numerous discussions with fire chiefs and firefighters in my district program is frequently cited as a lifesaver and the only means by which their department can attempt to purchase up to date equipment which requires a significant portion of their budget for their volunteers because of volunteer departments reliance upon the program and because of the program's proven track record of successfully awarding grants through an open competitive process based on need i'm concerned about the united fire services proposal to transition away from this model to one where statutory set asides limit program flexibility based on department type i fear this redistribution  funds will put many rural an all volunteer departments at a severe disadvantage when it comes to obtaining the necessary equipment similarly also worrisome to me is a proposal to provide priority to applicants with higher call volume and population volunteer departments serving predominantly rural areas benefit tremendously from firefighter assistance programs because unlike many other agency programs the grants are distributed on need rather than population population and call volume isn't the only determinant need of determinant of need and we must we must be cognizant of the unique role of firefighters volunteer firefighters play in serving their communities and not limit an extremely critical source of funding for their departments i am extremely appreciative of the services all brave firefighters provide on behalf of our nation citizens and i look forward to hearing from the witnesses on this very essential program thank you very much mr smith if there are members who wish to submit additional opening statements your statements will be added to the record this point chair it seems like a lifetime but this legislation i had introduced us legislation in the hundred and sixty congress that's when it passed it passed before nine eleven in the past because so many firefighters both career in volunteer came to washington knowing that this legislation was a bottom up piece of legislation on heard of before with two or three signatures on it for a year and a half and then probably more signatures when it passed than any other bill that that that's term and it was passed in two thousand important because the peers the firefighters themselves make the judgment bureaucrats are not involved and i think this is why the program has been so successful  and it really was the inspiration for the second piece of legislation which is not before you today which i ask also that you we authorize and that's to say for bill when i teamed up with congressman boehlert from town york he's no longer with us retired and we passed a safer bill which helps the personnel in many of our fire departments particularly at a time when our economy is feeling a tremendous amount of pressure and communities cannot respond as they should now when we looked at this in the later ninety's it was quite obvious from the firefighters  assembled volunteer career and retired it became very obvious that there were a tremendous amount of needs out there and who better could define those needs but  firefighters was something new on capitol hill let's go to the source of the problem let's go to the proper those folks who have to deal with the situation every day and when you look at the federal responsibility and the response to the very  you would see that that was a part of public safety that was tremendously neglected federal government had relatively little input into helping communities respond to the fire n that's why the fire act was passed the brave firefighters on duty every day we saw what happened in nine eleven in any area that rural areas suburban areas and urban areas we would balance whatever the legislation would be and i think those firefighters who acted in reviewing and analyzing three thousand applications document every year and finally making the decision as to which departments show the greatest need we've extended and i want to  complement for helping put together sessions throughout the country so that firefighters and those who do the grant writing come to the sessions and learn how to fill out a grant because that's three quarters of the battle and i really they've done a terrific job they've really done a sensational job so the fire act was passed and officially stablished to tile seventeen and actually became part of the national defense what there was a so since two thousand want the program has responded to the needs of such as infrared cameras personnel personal protective gear hazmat detection devices fitness programs firefighters law many firefighters never went through a physical or hadn't taken periodic physical lives my own district i can give you specific examples that's important one healthy people going online we want people that are able to do the physical work that's necessary to protect us to be able to do that and of course interoperable communications systems so we know that competitive grant process has work i would put it against any such competitive process in the entire federal government just in homeland security but in the entire federal federal government gather as i said with the the day we passed them a fact that when you look at the applications that are coming to and when you see what the needs are you'll see things haven't changed dramatically really in those  those ten years haven't really changed that dramatically even after nine eleven today in the midst of a terrible economic recession localities throughout the america are being forced to cut budgets and unfortunately public safety is the first to go sixty percent of fire departments do not have enough self contained breathing apparatus to equip all firefighters on a shift forty eight percent to five point harness did not have enough personnel alert safety systems it's just not acceptable less than twenty percent of the fire departments of the united states are able to cover the cost of apparatus replacement through their normal budget i mean how many need to have to buy a six hundred seven adjustments in the past by changing and minimizing the amount of matching money from the local communities and i think it's been particularly helpful to a lot of communities who couldn't make the make the so i want to thank you for allowing me to testify this is in my bone marrow i'm available for questions and you want to ask any questions asked thank you very much mr ok good morning at this time i'd like to introduce our second panel mr timothy manning is the deputy administrator of the national preparedness directorate the federal emergency management agency of the department of homeland security and comes from the great state of rescue jack character is the state of oregon fire district first vice chairman of the national volunteer fire council mr kevin o'connor is the assistant to the general president of the international association of fire fighters and chief her own is a division manager of the public fire protection division for the national fire protection association and our final witness is mr ed garland who is a training officer of the spalding rural volunteer fire department spalding nebraska you'll each have five minutes for your spoken testimony here in testimony will be included in the record for the hearing when you all complete your testimony we will begin with questions and each member will have five minutes to question the panel and mr manning please again thank you good morning mr chairman ranking member smith members of the committee i'm to manning the deputy administrator of the federal emergency management agency and on behalf of administrator few gates privileged to be here for you today to offer the administration support for the reauthorization of the assistance of firefighters and stepping for adequate fire emergency response grant programs mr chairman we share your continued support of the nation's fire service we understand the value of these programs to firefighters across the country and the citizens they serve having been raised in a fire service family and served as a volunteer firefighter myself i have a first hand appreciation for the dedication of these men and women and i'm honored to be able to support them in my capacity a nd as a former state emergency manager i have a great appreciation of the values these grant programs can add to the fire and emergency services through improved response city increased responders and ultimately greater public safety our service is demonstrated through the process by which programs are developed each year fema convened a panel of professionals from the nine major fire service organizations to assist in the development of funding priorities for the coming year and to discuss any changes in the program requirements and our collaboration and outreach extends throughout the grant award process i'll grant awards into these programs are competitive and are based on funding priorities recommended by the fire service and based on peer review panels comprised of representatives from the fire service chairman reducing loss of life and property caused by fire remains a significant challenge death and injury rates by the fire in the united states are these numbers we also believe that without these programs these numbers might be higher being the show that the rates of firefighter and civilian injuries and community wards are better than the national average for example in fiscal year two thousand program provides resources fire departments and nonprofit profit organizations alike leading public education programs school based programs alarm distribution projects for households and in doing so for funding allowed the programs seven thousand five hundred applications and provided nine hundred seventy four fire departments and volunteer firefighter interest organizations with four hundred million dollars in direct financial assistance mr chairman i'll conclude my statement again emphasizing the support and respect that we have at the department of ministry to myself the respect we have for the men and women of the nation's fire service commitment to the fire service also represents an ongoing commitment manning good morning chairman lew han ranking member smith and distinguished members of subcommittee i'm jeff johnson first vice president of the international association of fire chiefs and fire chief from valley fire and rescue in oregon the i believe that the assistance to firefighters grant program is extremely successful program that improves the safety of the american public is one of the few programs dedicated to all hazard preparedness response in addition the program as well designed to improve the baseline operational capabilities of the american fire service the program has the following core components that are sure affected the program distributes funding directly to local fire departments which reduces the amount of overhead and processing costs found another day chess programs every year convenes a meeting of the major fire service organizations to develop the criteria for awarding fire and safer grants the process ensures that the program is attuned to the needs of its end users the program uses a peer review process that ensures grants are awarded based on merit and demonstrated need external reviews by federal agencies have highlighted the effectiveness of the program two thousand and three survey of over fifteen hundred fire grant recipients by the u s department of agriculture found that more than ninety seven percent of the respondents agreed that the had a positive impact on their department's operational capabilities in addition the office of management and budget review  program in two thousand and seven and rated it effective o m b also gave the program a one hundred percent score for program management and program results accountability however there is still a clear need for the because of the recent economic downturn many departments must close fire stations lay off firefighters cut training equipment and fire prevention budgets meanwhile they continue to face the constant risk presented by natural and manmade disasters program we'd like to recommend some of the following changes one that there is a need to restructure the safer grant program currently the safer grant program requires local jurisdictions to make an escalating match with a five year commitment in the current economic downturn many local jurisdictions cannot make this commitment as a result there was a twenty percent drop in applications from all career in combination departments with a majority of career firefighters in two dollars in two thousand and eight this cap does not take into account the high cost of fire fighters in jurisdictions such as mine where a rookie firefighter is budgeted seventy and actually does cost seventy six thousand dollars a year in my case federal government's match would run out in the second year even with a three year commitment on a twenty percent match removing the cap would fix this problem three fire grants should support improved regionalism according to  grant guidance has the ability to waive the legislatively established funding limits in order to support regional projects however does not reward fire department to take a regional regionalism to the next step and consolidate or amalgamate for example my department is composed historically of twelve separate fire departments we now serve more than four hundred thirty two thousand people in nine cities in three counties in the portland metropolitan area to reward departments to consolidate and cover large populations recommends that the funding limit congress should establish centers of excellence and fire safety research currently the f t program funded number of projects that are aimed at reducing more than one hundred firefighters and as discussed over three thousand civilians while beneficial many of these programs are not comprehensive research programs also the results need to be transferred to the mainstream fire service recommends a creation of two or three centers of excellence in fire safety research research centers would be partnerships between major fire service organizations and major research institutions aimed at improving firefighters and public fire safety the fire grant program should also have a waiver to local match requirements for economically challenging areas according to the existing statute most jurisdictions must meet a twenty percent match while jurisdictions serving smaller populations must meet matches as low as five percent some jurisdictions cannot meet these requirements especially due to the economic downturn but still need training to replace training and or replace antiquated equipment recommends that congress create the authority to waive the local match requirement for these departments mr chairman ranking members method like to thank you again for the opportunity to testify on the importance of fire and safer grant programs we look forward to working with the committee and yourselves to continue these important programs thank you thanks very much  his commitment to this program and others my name is jack carrier on the fire chief and state and fire district which is in the north west section of oregon and i am also here as the first vice president of the national terror fire council and the council is participated since the inception of the a s g program and safer program in the criteria development and strategic planning of the program through the department of homeland security and has continued to be part of that and put which has made this program the success that it is that we in the fire service can come and give input to d h s s and to provide the information that is used to base the criteria development for the a f g grants in the safer grants is probably as has been testified earlier one of the most successful things that has happened on this bill in many years stakeholders have input that is solicited through the meetings since ninety since two thousand and it convenes panels of firefighters to evaluate and rank applications based on merit and based on the panel's ranking towards those grants to departments across the united states both rural suburban and metro departments equally when a few was created in two thousand seven it was a first federal program designed to assist local fire agencies with schools bringing all fire departments to a baseline to be able to provide a base level of security for the citizens of our country in two thousand and two and two thousand and four a have to do with reauthorized in the second assessment study was published in two thousand and six that found significant progress had been made in several areas including a fifty for six percent increase in the number of departments with enough portable radios to provide everyone on to shift that's thirty three percent increase in the percentage of departments with enough self contained breathing apparatus to provide one with everybody on shift hundred twenty nine percent increase in the number of apartments with thermal imaging cameras and twenty one to forty two percent increase depend upon type of incident over overall percentage of departments with written agreements of cooperation with using outside personality quitman from in responses to emergencies in addition to statistical  documentation the program of the program successors several of vailable web sites such as w w fire grants for dot com which is maintained by theme and w w dot com which is maintained by several of the national fire service organizations and i can tell you that my department has received several of these grants and has made an extreme difference in our ability to not only provide service to the public but to provide service to other agencies through in our operability and through compatibility our first grant was for a c b a's when it was more than fifteen years old and did not meet any of the current n f p a standards we were able to purchase new as c b a's that were compatible with larger departments around us and all of those  neighboring departments that surrounded us our second grant was to receive personal protective equipment which included helmets turnout's boots and gloves which would replace equipment that was fifteen to twenty years old also and this allowed us to not only be able to provide safer services public but to provide that extra level of say protection to the firefighters themselves and as it stressed so heavily in the fire service today the need for everyone to go home is based on our ability to provide safety for those firefighters both career and volunteer our third grant was for rehabilitation trailer for firefighters and other emergency agencies  people that provide monitoring care and treatment on scene for firefighters while they're working especially in long duration incidences the safe for act has brought a new ability to volunteer fire service to be able to go out and actively participate in recruitment retention programs that are so vitally important to the volunteer service right now with its challenges of finding people that are willing to take the time out of their lives and help really and revitalize the ranks of the volunteer fire service in the united states and we had the feel that this program is vital to the future of the fire service in general and that both safer and a f g are vital to the future of our ability to provide first line response service to the communities that we serve which is equal across the nation no matter what size the department is and enviously we'd like to see some things change in the service although we've killed as a program is an excellent program it's designed well through criteria development through strategic planning and through the peer regrew peer group valuation those groups continually bring better things to them matrix process and the application process but we'd also like to see congress authorized additional tools for assists assessing f g and safer this would include another fire service needs assessment to measure the process progress that has been made in bringing fire departments up to baseline levels of readiness based on natural national consensus standards would also include developing tools to analyze the impact that grants are having in communities and incorporated data from members state fire training agents should be made eligible grantees through the a f g including grants to purchase of the for the purchase of vehicles and equipment grants for state training agencies should be kept at a million dollars the same as all but the largest fire department state carrying agency she's are a critical component of creating and develop and delivering training throughout the country especially in rural areas national organization should be able to be eligible to apply for  safer and recruitment retention grants the grim intention is one of the most significant challenges facing volunteer fire service today state and local interest organizations are already eligible to apply for the need for these grants and have been able to use the funds to assist hundreds of departments national organizations could use the same approach and even a larger scale and larger groups and for departments in the local matching requirement for the departments through the fire safer and appreciates the opportunity to speak about these programs for my allotted time i want to focus on three areas research we have done to analyze the needs of our nation's fire service and the impact these programs have had  some thoughts on enhancements that can be considered during the authorization and lastly n f p a position on the most effective ways to continue to reduce fires and fire fatalities firefighter fatalities by way of background n f p a is the principal source for voluntary consensus codes and standards related to fire safety and the fire service our standards utilize a true consensus approach to address a broad range of topics such as professional qualifications and performance testing maintenance and operational procedures for protective and firefighting equipment many n f p a codes and standards appears mandatory references cited throughout federal agency regular regulations including d h s d o t c m s e p a and osha and f b i is also a recognized authority on fire analysis and research in two thousand and one and two thousand and five working with the u s fired ministration and f b i conducted two national surveys of the needs of u s municipal fire departments in both surveys needs were defined as a comparison of department resources to resources required for compliance with the political national standards and guidelines as part of the second needs assessment n f p a examine the degree of match between the type of resource source for which a grant was awarded in the department's reported need for that type of resource n f p a also examine the changes in the levels of need for most the most commonly requested types of resources our analysis concluded that the grant program was well designed well executed and well targeted and has made a difference in the needs it was intended to address however the difference has been limited simply because the needs of our nation's first responders are great despite this some notable changes standout the percentage of the partners with enough self contained breathing apparatus to equip all emergency responders on a shift increased by ten percentage points from thirty percent to forty percent the percentage of departments with enough personal alert safety system devices to equip all emergency responders on a shift increased fourteen percent from thirty eight to fifty two percent personal protective equipment account of the largest share of grant funds warded apartments in the years analyzed and if the n f p a matching analysis part of our second needs assessment shows a positive correlation between the expressed needs and the impact of the a f g program and targeting that need and if and it be a believes that there are ample data to support the successful initiation by both programs of vital changes necessary to protect the health and safety of the public and firefighting personnel against fire and fire related hazards the f g program is a good beginning and safer is an even more recent good beginning we have a long way to go to close our national gap and staffing and we need to continue to support safer for several years in order to ensure that it fulfills its objectives of helping fire departments meet safe staffing levels to provide protection from fire as well as an emergency response to many other types of the program or to allow a waiver or reduction of the match requirement for applicants facing a demonstrated economic hardship data show that roughly three out of every five merge the responses by u s fire departments are medical emergency calls therefore the n f p a recommend minimum of five percent of funding be designated for fire service based emergency medical services finally n f p a believes that funds for training and equipment should be utilized to meet the latest national voluntary consensus standards in order to facilitate fire prevention of fire control activities the us could identify specific safety strategies they wish to give priority to in the cold calls for proposal specify fire and life safety education programs in the listed grant fund purposes and or require all a f g grants to include an aligned fire prevention or mitigation project the u s f a a could also direct some funds to building the fire prevention personnel in organizational infrastructure and local fire departments in n f p a research project on fire code effectiveness measurement showed several examples of how lack of funding and other limitations are forcing communities to leave most inspectable commercial properties on an unexpected uninspected lastly the way to decrease the number of fires and fire related fatalities particularly in vulnerable populations is through a combination of education teaching individuals how they can be safer from fire engineering utilizing the latest technologies to prevent mitigate detect and suppress fire and enforcement ensuring that the latest codes and standards are being followed to do this we need to adequately staff train and equip local fire services today we ask our highest service to do a lot more than fight fires we ask them to be the first line of defense in a full range of extra ordinary and extraordinary situations as we place more demands on them we must be willing to provide them with the resources to do the job we know from our analysis that the fire service is woefully underfunded  grant program to working there moving the fire service in the right direction and must continue this is it is essential that the fire grant programs be reauthorized thank you carla chairman luann ranking member smith and members of the committee thank you for giving me the opportunity to appear before you today to provide testimony in regards to the program my name is ed carl and i live in the small town of spalding and belong to the spalding volunteer fire department i'm a made up of thirty five volunteers i also help serve my community as an elected official on the city council in addition i am a career firefighter currently serving as captain on the grand island fire department our fire department functions with sixty eight members operating out of four stations we provide emergency services such as fire in mass rescue hazardous material response airport response and technical rescue response such as transient high angle rescue while off duty i teach both fire nia mass education departments in nebraska as a career firefighter a volunteer firefighter and a fire in e m s instructor i've been able to see the benefits of the a f g and some of the shortfalls of the grants as i traveled throughout the state i was asked to come before you and give an oral testimony to what i have seen in the experienced on a local and community level where i am involved funding for a career in volunteer fire department was almost impossible to obtain until the a f g was a stablished a lot of the apartments are in areas classified as low income areas all those designations offered relief to citizens in the area did nothing to help the fire department with poor economies not just locally but across the nation along with their low income classification funding for equipment and staffing was becoming impossible to secure the community where i reside spalding the brassica had this problem or next to a hydrant and deploy a portable tank so they could pump out of it until mutual aid arrives from the rural fire district valuable time was lost setting up this tank allowing a fire to further destroy property and eliminating the window of opportunity for rescue our ability to protect the two things the firefighters sworn to protect life and property was jeopardized in our community when spalding applied for a grant they opted for a mini pump or for several reasons the smaller size allowed it to fit in the current building and allowed for a quick protect our firefighters and allowing them to conduct their mission in a safe a patient manner would be next to impossible without the a f i believe this program is on the right track and fulfilling its objective of protecting the public and firefighters from the hazards of fire i do know that we have a long way to go to meet these objectives it is still hard for some departments to come up with their matching portion of the grant which ultimately keeps them from applying i know of a few departments who are not applying this year because they will not be able to meet their required match for the grant and the profession of firefighting is often said that all firefighters are professional and held liable for their duties whether they are from a career volunteer fire department in the two thousand nine hundred fifty grand new priorities are outlined giving higher levels of consideration to departments that protect a larger population and have a higher call the this is a highly competitive grant and this provision alone could possibly eliminate several or rural area grants from advancing to the next round of peer review i understand the higher call volume will show a greater cost benefit of the award but the gran discriminate on the basis of the population served by a certain fire department a life as a life and death does not discriminate by population possibly they should give a higher consideration to the apartments by the square miles they protect as well since most rural areas have huge coverage areas i recently instructed a rural department which i could not allow to participate in any live fire exercises because their bunker gear did not meet the required standards they were not able to compete complete some of the realistic training that i feel is critical for firefighters to experience and learn from if this department was dispatched to a fire call today and had a rescue situation in front of them i can almost guarantee that not one firefighter would hesitate to attempt a rescue not one would say i cannot go in because instructor carline told me my gear is not compliant the n f p a standards is what they are trained to do whether we like it or not they're going to do their job an attempt to save the life fortunately n a f t grant was awarded to them and they are in the process of acquiring new gear to protect their firefighters is stated in the program guidance for the two thousand and eight gee that our primary goal is to help fire departments and nonaffiliated t m s organizations organizations meet their fire fighting emergency response needs based off this i do not believe the intent of the grant program was for it to become biased toward the population of a given area whether large or small i feel the f d a is not a complex grant to apply for but many departments use grant writers to write their grants there is nothing wrong with using a grant writer can provide an edge by using experience and expertise in the field there are still thousands of departments out there that cannot afford to use a grant writer and will continue to submit submit their own grants due to the lack of funds funding for the a f g is right on track the money goes straight to the fire department and a hundred percent of it can be used at their request to save or program is also been a huge benefit to fire departments across the nation and this time of economic crisis fire departments nationwide are being forced to freeze hiring and lay off firefighters unlike factories manufacturing plants and other businesses that can slow production or reduce their production to coincide with their layoffs we cannot there's no control over fires accidents injuries and other emergency calls and our call volumes will not decline fire scenes are demanding and often wire contained require continuous aggressive actions to stop the fire waging this war in dangerous environments close to a point of exhaustion firefighters work as they await other units to arrive and relieve them so they can rehabilitate and return to the battle at the scene manpower is often the primary resource and without it firefighters will be forced to operate multiple roles putting them in dangerous situations without the help they need in closing as these cuts to fire departments are made i would not expect the number of injuries and fatalities to fire biters on fire an emergency seems to decline but possibly increase instead it was evident early on the safer ground was needed to adequately staff the fire departments manning to a level where they could safely respond safer finding needs to remain at a higher level at the four hundred twenty million but taking money from the a s g program and adding it to the state for program is not the solution with twenty one thousand departments applying for three point two billion dollars in the a f g it is evident that there is still a need for the apogee to be fully funded funded thank you and i will be happy to answer your questions you may have thank you mr carlin this point will open our first round of questions the chair recognizes south for five minutes and i want to thank each of you for sharing your testimony  today my district in new mexico was a rural district for the most part my familiarity with the important responsibilities that our fire service has cost in mexico is the one that i had  serving in my previous capacity we were a regulatory commission that was structured in such a way that our fire marshal for the state into mexico and our state fire academy were under our jurisdiction and we work closely with them and s in mexico to create opportunities to be able to take advantage of a fire plan that was put in place at the state level but that was not being fully allocated to our firefighters across to mexico in our fire district recognizing the importance of being able to get them the support that they need but the emphasis in our state was to look at those i have shows that were in trouble those fire districts i didn't have the tax base or billeted to be able to get the resources and so we put together the fire down plan to be able to emphasize the fact that we could grow those fire departments where we could and as we strengthen them the state as a whole would be in a better position to be able to protect our citizens to be able to respond to different  provide them support and so with that being said with some of the suggestions that we're hearing today how we make sure that we're able to still fully support the fire of all parts of the country as we're looking to make sure we're maximizing the investments that can be made and i would open that up to any one of you kevin o'connor again i think that everybody is table is committed and recognizes that there's not an online the federal resources there's no way that the federal government can properly resource a local fire department so with the limited pot of money that we have and some of the observations here i completely concur with we have to make sure that we spend it efficiently and i think when you look at the data over eight years clearly it's health departments of all sizes we recognize that and we think that you can you but i think in an objective analysis as stewards of the public dollar we have an obligation to make sure that it's spent efficiently that doesn't mean that population needs to be on the requisite which is one of the reasons in adopting the proposals thirty thirty thirty century are comparing apples to apples our organization a lot of people are under the misconception that we only represent large jurisdictions we've got thirty one hundred chapters across the country we call them locals over half of them have under fifty one hundred twenty have under fifty members so some of the same problems that local volunteer companies are facing in terms of grant writing we have we've got small departments don't have those capabilities but by our measure if you can group the money proportionately all the professional apartments are little in some of the areas in mr smith district  to be part of that process we were very cognizant of the legitimate concerns of smaller departments and in crafting even the statutory requirements of the forty five percent we took that in consideration but as time has evolved we've seen that just the opposite has been the look at the fact that there's two different issues involved in this program with a f t m would say for and i believe that neither issue is satisfied by robbing one or  ones resources and giving them to the other they need to both be fully funded at the authorized a mouse would have been recognized in the past and as we continue to grow and as the system builds for this program it gets better and we are constantly looking at ways to recognize how to apply the matrix system for the application process in a more fair way and i would have to compliment the staff  for their constant vigil on recognizing that there is always a better way even though this program has been very very effective and i've been very proud to be a part of it we are constantly looking for ways to make it better and i think that through this process that will happen but that will only happen if this both of these programs are funded to their maximum authorized levels and that is what is going to result in providing carling the population of spaulding six hundred six hundred i overstated in my opening statements when i talked about communities of a few thousand people communities of a few hundred thousand people and even more but how many miles across would you say  f the hard work and effort that everyone makes to fight the bad things that can happen in various communities let's talk a little bit about the matching requirement unified fire service proposal recommends reducing the current matching requirement for large departments from twenty percent down to fifteen percent and increasing the matching for small departments up to fifteen percent from its current level of five percent basically tripling that  character mr carlin could you discuss how the real departments you represent currently deal with the match requirement and how this increase would impact your ability to apply and receive grants coming up with the five percent is hard for many departments to do regional grants they add the population of everyone going together in the grant and it'll usually take you up to the ten percent match and that's preventing a lot of the departments and our area from applying for a regional grant because it brings them up to the ten percent and they just can't meet that requirement so a fifteen percent match would definitely eliminate several departments from even apply carlin i think it is very difficult for many departments to come up with a five percent match because when you're talking about departments that have maybe forty or fifty volunteer firefighters on them and they're looking to  as you're talking about a cost of a quarter of a million dollars and for a lot of those departments their their budget for the years less than fifty thousand dollars and they have to maintain their equipment  and provide all the services to their community out of that so so moving that up to fifteen percent would definitely would affect the a number of departments apply and i think when we start losing departments to apply we start losing our ability to have data on who's out there and who needs if they're not involved in the system we don't have that information and i think any time that we do anything that discourages departments from applying we've cut our ability to recognize what the true fire service needs for especially in rural areas in this country are thank you mr johnson would provide and how to allow jurisdictions to address that but when we were contemplating yes we recognize that there are certain jurisdictions that are small in terms of population but very very well disposed financially concur with those comments from the perspective we are not interested in raising that minimum threshold we can actually live with where it is for sure but this was about making fifteen percent more attractive and likewise we thought the  only been in existence a relatively short amount of time i think they were a demonstrated their value particularly in helping local departments to fill emergency response that obviously these days have expanded beyond firefighting  certainly especially in the post nine eleven world a big expansion what what these local departments a have to have to be prepared for i'm concerned that many of the protections included in the bill for rural and volunteer departments though may have been more successful than expected resulting in suburban and urban departments combined only receiving thirty percent of the federal funding awarded the fire grants authorizing legislation required volunteer in combination apartments receive funding in proportion to percentage of the us population that they serve about fifty five percent but for mr connor testimony i understand a significantly larger percentage has been awarded to hartman since two ree thousand volunteers and career guys but by and large when you take a look at the combination you know i can't say this scientifically and i would purport to but if you look at this pot of thirty thirty thirty and you break it down i think  urbanized apartments really haven't gotten a fair share and nobody wants to tilt the balance we certainly are not looking to tilt the balance dramatically on the other side we would just like equity and collectively we thought this was a fair way to address the issue thank you and i think that we're all interested in that i don't think anybody at this palace feels any differently about making sure that we're doing the right thing for the right reasons that's what this is about i think there's also other things that have to be considered in this as such is funding from other sources through domestic preparedness and there's a lot of other funding it's available to especially metro departments for specific challenges that they face in the types of things that they are definitely going to deal with supposed to rural departments so i think that it has an effect on making sure that metro and suburban type departments do receive the funding that they just deserve but i don't think it always has that it doesn't always have to come from a f g and i think that a f g is one of those programs that it is the only program that truly can deliver training equipment and a capability for rural fire districts to perform at that baseline level so when the metro departments such as the nine eleven and incident are faced with those challenges those rural departments and those volunteer departments can come in and help provide service to them as they've been affected with a baseline of equipment that in general i would take exception to the comments about the scope of as most folks in the fire service community know specifically in those type of areas is that you lost money generally doesn't filter down to the department it's not something that a fire department able to identify their specific need to make the application and the chief is absolutely correct with respect to use our but i would submit that that is a federal function those twenty eight which are chronically underfunded and illegitimately we think that poses a threat to homeland security but i think you have to look at that separately because that use our training is not specifically geared to basic first response to responding to a katrina situation maro building a world trade to fully take advantage of the funding that is available recognizing the fire districts or fire departments have more trouble than others testify the safe or is in danger of failing to put isn't fixed now and the american recovery act waived matching requirements that the supplemental allows department funding to retrain firefighters and to retain firefighters that may have otherwise been lost  to waive these requirements for a two year period simply put no one needs to be lectured or educated on on the crisis nationwide small communities much more so than large if you take a look at the state of massachusetts falls river new bedford  leerie ohio small communities throughout michigan are langue all firefighters non plussed numbers say for the way it was currently constructed was authorized in a period where the economy was a lot better people did not and firefighters being laid off  of the program really gives great pause to a lot of budget managers looking at we really can't prognosticate over a five year period so i think that you really have to separate and apart from what was done in both  go forward to working with the committee to identify how best to accomplish that mr chairman members of the committee i think an example i'm experiencing right now about the value the center of excellence could potentially bring to our profession is we have come a long ways in the fire service to bring residential fire sprinklers to the forefront both in the fire code and other places but when you try to implement it as a local level one of the things that happens is you find out your local water provider purveyors are implementing system development charges often times between six and ten thousand dollars because the larger water line requirement to supply a fire sprinkler system based on engineering calculations make them upsize their system so they charge you for that in the system development charge now we all know that a fire sprinkler is going to use far less water than for my firefighters showing up on an engine company after the house is well involved we're talking  gallons a minute however water purveyors have no imperative evidence shows that people will not utilize the full capacity of that water line installed for fire sprinklers to do things like add less stations on their sprinkler system for water in their yard therefore they charge the system when a homeowner is faced with three thousand dollars to install a sprinkler and ten thousand dollars for a water line to supply the sprinkler we don't have the science and absent a research center that conducts this kind of research some of these things to bed don't affect just a single department but affect our nation's fire service without that will actually continue to money over to the safer program to hire new firefighters this is despite the fact that more than three billion dollars was requested while only five hundred eighty million was requested for the safer grants can you explain how these numbers number of different funding avenues through different grant programs this being our first budget submission and adjusting those programs to the right levels is something we're working on we'll continue to work on more closely with the committee and the appropriations committee chairman johnson in your testimony in clue the importance of how the larger fire department should get funding as well what can be done again and it was a question was asked but before but some of the smaller fire departments to ensure that they'll be able to get adequate funding and be able to benefit from some of the data that referenced earlier as well thank you mr chairman i think particularly we're hearing from the large regional systems that have gone through the trouble on behalf of their local taxpayers to consolidating regionalize or services in our particular area where were we not consolidated there'd be there would be twelve fire chiefs twenty four assistant fire chief twelve fire training programmes and on and on and on and by regionalizing we've saved the taxpayers that kind of redundant overhead and allowed us to redirect that capacity to the street level with that said these departments like in our case if we were left alone we would be eligible for twelve separate one million dollar grants and right now we're eligible for a single one million dollars grant our position is we would like to see the disincentive for cooperating and regionalizing removed when actually a c language in there that promotes regional efforts and cooperation so we just think this was a nuance that was overlooked and we wanted to bring to light and johnson to go a step further as well regarding local budgets and the importance of making sure that we're able to leverage those local budgets what are your thoughts are on the unintended consequences of relying on training of new firefighters thank you mr chairman the position is that we we believe it was a good move recognizing the current economic situation to recognize the retention component of the safer grant  believe this really does if you remove the barrier for making these long term commitments this really does create additional capacity not only for career departments but for volunteer departments who are also eligible for this so we think it makes all the sense in the world in terms of leveraging the local match i think as it relates to safer specifically it's less of a barrier to come up with the match for safer than it is to save yourselves for one hundred thousand dollar potential federal match i'm willing to lock myself in five years of commitment knowing that if i hit up in there economically speaking i've got to pay it all back that's a commitment that most policymakers won't make and one of the nuances at a local level as it is not uncommon that state level and local level boards are not allowed to bind future boards so when you make a five year commitment outside the four year term of most local elected officials so you actually run into statutory issues so we think that shortening this would provide a lot of incentives and remove the barrier thank you and mr carlin and mr kerik if you could just again talk about the importance of i think both of you have referenced how some of our smaller fire departments are just outdated and the importance of this funding to be able to assist you in building upon that local support as well review to smaller people looking at that thirty percent from small departments right now the small area puts in for a grant my town of six hundred may have someone from chicago new york and miami looking at my grant and how are  i believe that there's definitely room for improvement in how we apply the graeme souness and i think it's very important and certainly from the volunteer fire service is very important to a lot of the aspects of safer continue the recruitment retention section of safer is extremely important and has no match and valan debt is an open for volunteer departments to put in for programs and one of the biggest challenges for volunteer hartman's is finding somebody that is capable and has the time and can truly basically build and implement a marketing program for  finding new volunteers so i think safer is an extremely important part of this grant process and the and the program in general but i think the things that need to happen in response to the economic situation of the of our country right now need to be short term issues not permanent issues are not permanent solutions that you know it's five years from now we're looking at  in recovery times when things are going good like they were five years ago when most of this was developed that we're not inadvertently hurting how the program is implemented to the fire service population and the areas that have a larger population are going to obviously recover faster than the rural areas so i think that's even more important for us to remember that those any  your comments have proven to all of us that this is a program it's a puzzle it's a it's a big picture and each one of the sections of this program are vitally important and have a ripple effect to the other sections of the discuss this and hopefully arrive contrary to what some people think we elected officials don't like controversy when many many many parties can get along and and agree on things so that primarily concerned with making the program successful as possible and working with the budget that's provided to us by the congress ok thank you thank you mr manning would you agree that some of the investment that was included in the waivers to be able to provide more flexibility to fire departments across the country will assist in the upcoming budget cycle the change to the program there are made by the supplemental and the to the waiver authority is obviously has a possibility has the potential to some communities the application of that authority is problematic and can be difficult  we would like to see some additional consideration through the a f p to help support some of the fire prevention activities that would help support those those inspection activities thank you very much and i have no further questions mister ok with that being said i want to thank you all for appearing before the committee this afternoon the record will remain open for two weeks for additional statements from the members and for