we basically went into our environment and took what our environment had to give us we had to search for it we had to do work there's no doubt about that we don't ever want to lose this picture or this picture that energy was involved in this process but the energy was a searching and hunting energy and we use that food energy we got to slowly increase our population over time and then somehow we hit agriculture and i would love to see the speeded up of the history but but somehow we learned that we could modify our environment so that took energy and as a result of that energy we got more food out of our environment and then we formed a symbiotic relationship with draft animals and that took our energy both our food energy that we got on the environment and our energy but that let us put even more energy into modifying our environment and then that of course led us to that and then finally we had the mother load if you will and that took some energy but boy do we get a lot more energy out for what we put into that and even though from a true human evolution historical perspective this is a blip it's a big blip and and here's why because there's a pretty direct connection to energy and population out and as i said earlier we have enough energy now in our economy in our food system where we are energetically wasteful and this is very present in our diet so for example meat consumption rates continue to increase even though meat operates at a very strong energy loss and then similarly this is probably the bigger development in our diets this whole food processing industry including restaurants you know how many meals people eat out now it's more than one in three the percentage of food that goes through this is over is right around seventy five percent that takes that energy and now it diverts a lot of our food come from coming directly to us and then finally that might not be around for so much longer so here are some reasons to change climate change peak oil when people look back a thousand years from now they say what made that such an interesting time it's these things hitting simultaneously you energy becoming a big issue in climate change and they're in competition significant competition because we have some solutions to alleviate this at least in the short term and they involve driving this off the charts so the keystone pipeline being one example canada has a heck of a lot of oil and it's really dirty so here's some more incentives to change and this is kind of focused on my personal bias of why why fossi fuels just make me want it in scratch their their their dirty somewhere behind every gallon of gas is something ugly and then finally if you reduce your energy into your food system your farm system you increase your resiliency because we have sources of energy that are under our control but they're significantly less than the sources of energy that are outside our control so this is what the food system has been doing the last few years over a ten year period our total u s energy has gone up some our food related energies gone up a lot and if you look at the per capita basis of per person we actually do a little better being more energy efficient but quite a bit worse in our food system so that overall we are putting a little over seven calories into our food system for each calorie that comes out this shows a couple different menus that were put together by a research team in sweden these numbers are probably a little worse for us energy wise but here's the real take home message this is the energy in took articular item on the menu this is the energy out if you scan that list you don't tend to see any winners baked goods tend to be one of the few things where you get more energy out than the total food system that goes in and you know one of my own personal sobering ones was research on a can of corn three quarters of the energy that's in the corn is what it takes you to drive to the grocery store get the corn and come back home assuming you're taking other things with you and so  yes ma'am these are national averages so these folks are really good job of finding out what the average chicken produced in sweden looked like including the average energy it took to cook it and so on and so this include everything from raising the animal and includes all the energy that went in forms of fertilizer feed and so on energy covers all these things that come up on the slide so oil is energy what these folks are burning in doing their work is energy and there's energy in this produce but it's obviously very different and in general you know there's going to be some simplifying here we want to pull out main themes but not get too caught up in specifics and to realize that it is possible that when we grow some of the stuff it takes us more energy to grow it than we're going to get out and that's not necessarily a bad thing pointed out that there's sound arguments to say from an ecological perspective we can't continue to put more energy into a system than we're getting out of it the more power you bring t bear the more energy inefficient you tend to be so here's four different technologies all largely doing the same thing and i'll be the first to say this and by the way this isn't necessarily with that study but this of it was done in a developing context and this might be what it looks like is very different from what this tool is going to do is very different from what that tool is doing so i'm not saying these are all necessarily the same thing either but basically if you wan work up a hector of land you know the bigger the piece of equipment you bring to bear with it your body draft animals or different size tractors the more energy it's going to take you so why don't we do this well actors two and a half acres two hundred thousand killer calories a kilocalories of food calorie so two hundred thousand food calories of human energy to work up two and a half acres and when i'm working hard i'm eating about three thousand and i'm probably burning fifteen hundred maybe two thousand calories a day that's like a hundred days of labor to do that work that's where that oil starts to look pretty good here's another way to look at it my friend an energy analyst likes to talk about your energy slaves if you live in america behind us on a per capita basis and that's an energy is getting burned to be the equivalent of one hundred forty seven people working for you around the clock twenty four seventh's that's what subsidizing our current lifestyle again not necessarily any particular individuals in this room but on the average so here's another way of thinking about i did these calculations because we developed an auction powered electricity cart basically turns a a big wheel that drives a couple alternators has a bank of batteries in our auction pulled around and then the drive juice in the batteries so a kilowatt hour is a measure of energy or work and it's basically the energy that lets you take one kilogram and lift at three hundred fifty kilometers straight up or you can think about it as lifting three hundred fifty megabytes metric tons one meter up either way it's a significant amount of work that comes out of that one kilowatt hour our oxen can pull you know somewhere around two hundred kilograms comfortably that's the amount of weight they pull behind them meaning they have to travel two kilometers to generate one kilowatt hour now we did the numbers and we said wow you know if we can get these guys out working in the system works for about three hours a week in the winter that's all the energy to light our barns for winter chores but there's a bigger question do we need to go cold turkey  we need a diversity of solutions and greg cox who's a farmer down in rutland you know as a follow up to this which is we all suck this is what he says when he goes on looks out  black plastic mulch over his bed all right so let's get into farming and what farming looks like and where these different energy slaves are kicking in for us so we have power needs tillage  there's others nutrient needs getting nitrogen into our soil mining other ones nutrients and transporting them to our soil pest control irrigation and it's quite a list it adds up to an average somewhere around four hundred gallons per person a year to fuel or just our farm system to note this includes transportation so this is out of the farm gate to wherever the first step is beyond that and you can see relatively what what's expensive and so and particularly tend to i tend to think action human power you know this is why i'm looking over ways we can power our systems on a farm but notice you know over fifty percent more energy going into our nutrients and that's that's a pretty important thing to keep in mind so how are we going to get rid of all this stuff and get rid of the fossil fuels well it's going to take systems and it's going t investment and this is how i like to think about those investments look like first and foremost as a says over there ecology it's more important than you can has a farmer this is more important than what i do is investing in our ecosystems getting our soils to work for us getting our surrounding habitat whether it's pollinators or natural pest control to work for us and investing in those things that don't run on fossil fuels and to be smart and invest in my own knowledge and understanding invest in those i'm working with we have to we have to read and think and come to know if a conferences it's going to involve things that are built and probably below some fossil fuel like remade possibly high tunnels or really good well designed human powered tools and then finally it's going to involve talking to each other and communicating joe said in his keynote up there it's just all communication again no for conferences but but forming the links so that we're more efficient as as a group might look a bit like this so instead of at our college the cisco truck backing up to the dining hall which is still does and will for quite a while become more of this our farm stand in the lobby our farmer's market which you can walk out of our ministration building and one block down is our farmer's market in town our c s a we run at the college again i made a little simplistic issues i'm a big fan of trying to move in that direction but we've got to remember that at the turn of the century a quarter of our land was just for feeding our horses it's a little bit easier training somebody to drive a tract that we'd be somewhere and then small grain production you know this is a big area i love vegetables at the end of the day vegetables are mostly water we want to feed people grains are pretty important and pre school in and in draft animal technologies and development and i was pretty sure there was no such thing as a draft animal powered combine and fortunately somebody disillusioned me of that ok there is some great pictures of this this thing work and you see the the sacks of grain coming off the side and look how many people are riding that thing and look how many horses are pole in that thing now it's important to remember that right around the time we were starting to really get into things like research and development was right around the time we had these new engines coming on and we kind of dropped draft animal equipment so it's a good question to say what would happen if we spent a few million dollars in developing a draft animal powered combine certainly we could do something better than that i'm sure it's all just one example to throw out there you know we're very fortunate to have a subculture the united states that's keeping these technologies and knowledge alive and developing them and doing some of the research in development and on million dollar budgets but they're putting money and energy into it but this goes back a ways this is data from the seventy's but still looking amish dairies reducing their fossil fuel inputs and their injury inputs and one case increasing the land in labor significantly but in the other case actually using less land despite feeding their horses to make this work kind of gets at that danger of oversimplifying on the human power side of things this is a study done at kentucky state run by mike bomford they have three systems one is a bio intensive system which for those who are not familiar with that involves a lot of digging double digging your beds and so on they have a market garden which they run with a walking tractor rototiller and then a small farm with me is a twenty five horsepower riding tractor and this just shows some of their their data coming out  so this is the amount of labor going in this is the minutes per square meter but you know the thing about relative terms ok not not even comparable labor wise and then this is the energy going in now the nice thing is this red this is human energy so you could argue that yes it's energy they're getting charged for that but depending on your context and what you're trying to do thing is a big difference between this which is basically gasoline petroleum in this which is food getting turned into activity no matter how you scratch it ok looks an awful lot like work and this kind of motivates some of our thinking i have john jevons book how to grow more vegetables one of my early vegetable growing bibles but so is elliot coleman and what we've been working on developing in our system is how to do minimal till other issues so f insecticides and herbicides won't go into this a lot of detail lots of folks telling you ways to reduce your energy inputs into this without using fossil fuels those investments in natural capital smarter technology similarly we control the they just left us more in but i understand the nortel's were here yesterday they give one of the best talks on we control i know and it's only part way to their talk your way while they're doing all this with horses the horses are kind of a bit of a sideline for their they take fossil fuels to produce but if you're cultivating with a diesel powered tractor you might very well be saving energy by using those and then similarly organic amendments can be very energy intensive who you are vegetables that's all farmers tendon vesting the irrigation you like to know that your seeds are going to germany when you plant them that's a lot of energy that goes into that on the other hand there's energy that goes into planting a crop and not having it terminate or having poor yields because you didn't irrigate but we do know we again have investments we can make soil organic matter organic mulch is one of my favorites you know we use the bio intensive planting method where we put suffering close together and when stuff reaches near full size we have pretty good canopy cover and what that means is less moisture loss we only water when we seed and that's that we that we actually folks are a look at some of our data related to this nutrients are expensive so you think about nitrogen you know here's what i think of when i think of nitrogen getting broken apart and fixed i think of lightning which can do it a low tech think of lightning which can do it huge amount of energy coming down i think of the oklahoma city bombing big truck of eureka as the kind of energy we're talking about there are other ways to do this but there's no free lunch i think that's over there somewhere so getting these nutrients is a challenge and at the same time pretty important think it's a fair question if we suddenly had to go to all organic forms of nitrogen in our production would we be able to to feed everybody even you know transitioning to a vegetarian diet  d so this leaves all this leads to our research and this is kind of the underlying framework for what we're doing which is that to ask the question can you grow vegetables or anything without fossil fuels is not a meaningful question because we did it for a really long time one thousand eight hundred some years the bigger question is what's the impact what are the tradeoffs so i tend to think a lot about things getting traded for each other so just as an example fertilizer and egg chemicals one of the big things they do is more energy lets us get by with less land and we put synthetic fertilizers in yields go up and energy inputs go up but the amount of land to grow the same amount of food goes down you come the other way you take land to grow biofuels grow cover crops to feed draft animals now you've got to use more land to save energy ideally i should be noted that a little bit of fertilizer actually system i can save you some energy because i get more yield i'm doing the same on a tractor work cultivating plowing and so on so you know our initial research is that you know somewhere around up about eighty pounds a nature gin are actually saving energy by getting more yield now there might be issues though what if you had to clean up the pollution ok you know lay aside the gets complicated pretty or that easy on our side one of the things i like you know what does bringing more labor to play let you do you know basically getting more mines and more feet and hands close to the ground where you're growing intensive plantings for example you can get a lot more plant matter in the same amount of space if the humans doing it and this is an example we do in our human beds and we rip up the cover crop we could take all that cover crop biomass and put it somewhere to compost and then bring it back and that would be fine that's a lot of work in energy and when i cover crops leeching nutrients where they're going quite possibly somewhere i'm not going to plant or instead we just make a little compost piles on the beds i can do this attract animals i can't be going down cultivating me like ok let's the cultivator go over the little compost pile and keep going human flexibility lets me do that so that that change creates opportunities that are not there with other growing systems we call our research leafs long term ecological assessment of farming systems and this maps not quite accurate you get the picture we've got for our plots of human power each of them a sixteenth of an acre so it's a quarter acre total four plots of the tractor same size which we call a tractor it's an eleven horsepower b c s walking tractor we only have one oxen because oxen on a sixteenth of an acre forget it really a half an acre is about the minimum size they can work efficiently and we want the systems to be efficient so and all of them are doing the basic same task which is we have approximately nineteen different vegetable crops we want to grow kind of a mix represent of a c s a production and we want them to be grown in relatively the same quantities so don't get too caught up in these numbers but what that means is over time if one system puts ten percent of its space in the potatoes the other system should be close to that so we're not a research institute our system has to produce veggies that are going to end up being valued by people so we had had to balance that there are three systems we're looking at and  is our human powered system already mentioned minimal tillage so these are twenty permanent five foot by hundred foot beds basically the growing areas three and a half feet wide and we stay off it and one of the main ways i find people is like you not step there and that's that's kind of sacred ground where we grow because it gets back to this soil health connection we need that soil health and in particular because we have minimal outside inputs nutrients coming in but in a very carbon intensive form so to make up for that not only do we treat the soil really well one fifth of the beds are in cover crop each year and there goes some of that yield right that still gets counted as growing space kasia if we've had rain down hay they'll go out and bring in rain and hay equally important they power our nutrients so we have a you know we make an estimate of what's a sustainable amount of manure we can take out of  that what they're producing and apply to the vegetables the rest going back to where they get their forage for the pasture and hayfield and we soil test and we'll adjust that as we need to but that's where a lot of our nutrients are coming from and then some inputs are allowed so we will put remains on there the human area no outside products and no remains no bio insecticides the closest we've come is we might you know dry and crush some of our own red peppers and spray on their systems kind of in between and then this one we can to call conventional organic where we're trying to model what i would call best can vent our organic production practices so conventional here means more typical normal organic nothing pejorative meant by that we use eleven horsepower b c s walking tractor but we have a hill or fur or with it that we used to furrow for our potatoes we use it to dig and we'll take a bigger  what you might see in some places in europe where b c s is used more intensively not just a rototiller and then again you know and we go through johnny's and johnny says boy you know here's a great pest control amendment we consider it's not ruled out if it makes sense economically within the confines of being an organic system we use it we do buy in pro growth as an organic nutrient amended amen all three systems we want to run as well as we can all three of these systems we're tracking all the labor all the energy inputs at least as many as we can get a handle on and the land that goes into this gets to be a bit of a challenge and i want to share just a smidge of that challenge so for example our oxen come into the special production area and they burn calories to do work and we can track that to an extent we actually have a gizmo we put behind we say ok here's how hard they're pulling when they're doing this job and how far they're travelling and so on but at the end of the day that didn't really make sense as the best measure of their energy because that energy is coming from this area here where they're getting their hay in their pasture so instead what we do is we measure this total boundary out here and we say ok what's all the energy coming in which is primarily human labor to manage these guys over the course of the year can get them in and out of the barn during the winter move them around the pasture clean up their stall and to produce their hay so we actually track all the work that goes into hanging with them they produce their hay they bring it going in these were our hypotheses for how this system would behave so direct fossil fuel usage will we actually burn in the fields and suman and we're not really any burning anything in the fields rather these we are in the tractor what about the fossil fuel to produce what we need for the system so we call indirect fossil fuels for the fertilizers for the compost for the remake for the tools even now we thought the human power be pretty close to zero all really push in the system the animal power has some but when the much and you know we kind of thought ahead of time the tractor would have a lot for its compost and other implements imported nutrients but we thought the yield would be we felt the human with the close planting would be the highest labor demand and in overall energy efficiency we kind of thought that humans win the day there with energy efficiency and kind of based on some of that data you saw earlier and now we have two years running of results and we're learning a lot including maybe learning a little bit of humility about our human powered system which is always a good thing so for starters it's thousands of dollars per acre this is going off of u v m's farmers market tracking website all of these systems are small enough where you should be able to direct market so we're assuming direct marketing take that with a grain of salt right and we also assume some losses we don't assume everything gets direct marketed but you know you can see over all these systems are  similar to other small vegetable systems in vermont which is grossing a fairly decent amount of money  and we we'd like to get to where we figure out net we have a yes this is just gross income per acre and you see the tractors down a little bit better heeled wise those cover crops are at the humans and things like i said that remain  very useful for when you need it and where the oxen sit down low why because we charge them for the land it takes to feed them we charge them for that year of fallow ok that's a year production taken out so be aware that those factors go in here this doesn't mean they had a really lousy crop yield there is one factor there oxen are wide what's i mean i mean we have to keep our roe crops farther apart and then we might normally you know my horses don't look at my surprise lie but they're pretty nimble within those feet in there and oxen can do that but they can also do some of this and so you know we have a wider row spacing this is an important one to interpret correctly this is dollars per hour that's gross dollars per hour of field labor so there's no planning labor here there's no management labor in here ok so i you know based on my experience as a farmer i kind of tend to think you know all my other labors about half of my production costs you know when i walk out in the field i'm just kind of looking around say ok what makes sense to do next and assessing things that's not in here at all when i'm trying to direct and supervise people that's not in here all this is just whenever anybody goes in the field and does some work we track th so i don't think you take on one of these systems like wow twenty five bucks an hour that's great rather why you know the most important thing is this is comparative and so and particularly the human sitting about twenty five and these more like thirty and thirty two means you're taken fifteen twenty percent hit in labor costs by going to this technology i also tend to look at and say you know surely this means i can pay somebody ten bucks an hour and this is going to pay if per hour of their work in the system i'm grossing twenty five and the last one is pounds per hour and and so you can see a little bit of  variability there so this next one is this a lot of info but i want to give you the story that goes with this i don't get too caught up in the numbers but you know here's an important one this is in mega calories thousands of our food calories how much energy per acre are we putting in and you can see the tractors got about double what the humans are putting in i'm going to show you the breakdown of what this energy is a little bit but you know per acre the tractors got quite a bit more labor per acre in hours ok and you can see per acre again the humans got a bit more now you know also a kind of assess from this that's about twelve hundred hours per acre of actual field work so one person over the summer managing an acre well managed well organized  energy going in that's the energy coming out comparing those and you can see there's not a big difference between pounds per acre thousands of dollars per acre calories per acre they're all roughly the same order it's coming so don't try and calculate in your head if that's if that's of interest this next one has pretty much the same stuff but we've added in conventional vegetable production so we've got to add on for representative crops potatoes cabbage tomatoes and a leafy green and i can remember the fourth one is not apologize but basically this represents a fairly similar mix of crops being produced and the energy and you can see there are some pretty huge differences for starters is the energy input per acre so conventional vegetable production into a piece of land is able to pound a lot more energy in there ok this is labor per acre printing a struggle to see it there it is that's the conventional vegetable production we didn't get out here i'll show you is also the energy input per hour of labor and it's amazing conventional agriculture for our work in the field how much energy they're able to capture and put to work and  two ways you can say you know that's that's really awful and all that energy getting pushed through you know in a short amount of time or you can think wow that's pretty amazing you know that that is an accomplishment to be able to capture that much power so many asked about the energy return you know with with vegetables i try not to get too caught up on this so you can see here's the the tractor we put it coming down because this is the breakeven mark right one you're putting as much energy as you're getting out and so the tractor is using more energy than it's putting out for vegetables that's not surprising if we were to do conventional vegetable production it would be down somewhere around in here so it's quite a bit better than that and to me what i really tend to look at us and say is like wow we can produce vegetables and have net energy come out that feels pretty good in each category we said well whoever is using the most we call one hundred percent so for example under indirect fossil fuel usage all the fossil fuels to support the system the humans using forty three percent of the tractor and the animals only using thirty one percent of the tractor so gives a pretty quick way of looking at it you know with the fossil fuel return to earth energy efficiency you can look at the overall thing or you can of these guys are really using the fossil fuel usage you do get the indirect fossil fuel usage all right probably what i think is the most important story coming out of all this and this is a bit tricky to read but we said boy there's a lot of energy going into the human system more than we thought what is it what exactly are all these things going in and so it helps you to know is that these colors the order here is the order here so you can find the big categories and say what is that so here's two really big categories here they that and we did our best to figure out the energy this is not easy the stuff is it's hard to get good numbers but this is a pretty good guess and this is just the potting soil in our transplants the energy it took to produce that and get it to our farm you know roughly speaking that it's over a quarter of the energy that goes in that system the next one above is a little bit bigger that's the energy it took to grow our cover crop scenes and here's how i tend to think about this we are in this little bubble trying really hard to be energy efficient and every so often we have to reach outside the bubble because we need some from outside cover crops the vegetable see that it's like punching your fist through the wall of a space ship out there right there goes your atmosphere quick set up ok you know the conventional system is so dramatically different that things like cover crop seed are early energy expensive relative to what we're doing yes that's the energy it takes whoever produced our cover crop seed to grow it in so what's a natural conclusion for us if we want to make the system more efficient let's start saving some field p seeds right let's start saving some ryan vet seeds a little bit of work but obviously we can do it significantly more energy efficiently maybe we follow scott profs idea and produce our own potting soil and i don't see us going there yet that sounds hard some other ones that are kind of notable for how small they are so you know here's human energy that's that's fairly significant story jenner g we have a cool bot a little homemade walk in cooler still to store things for half a day or a day so they come down the temp before we put it off for the c s a that's energy you know the things that didn't actually end up being very much water usage not a terribly big one equipment energy a little bit bigger especially for the action not a big heavy piece of the metal there pull in and wear it out so and then finally have these things that are unique to the tractor area here's the program here's the compost and then there's the gasoline i would have guessed ahead of time that more energy was  compost that we're buying from vermont compost company than in the gasoline we're burning in the field no way go through a few other quick things the shows you the top energy inputs by system you can see cover craps pretty high on the human oxen potting soil fairly high in the areas in the tractors significantly difference got the composting gasoline this is an interesting slide to say what are you aiming to do what's your goal here so this is a labor to energy substitution if you say you know part of my goal is to save our system fossil fuels so when i go on the work i'm displacing other products that are more energy intensive and so per hour of labor and this is mega calorie save per hour which is which is kind of a cool stat to think about some mega calories a thousand dietary calories so for every hour of labor i work out there i've saved the system enough energy to feed somebody for a day that's kind of cool the oxen you know about fifty percent more in that the tractor even a little bit more but then we look at some other things here doing field work with horses great thing for saving energy walking and riding a bike just kind of comparing them different ways this lag gets to some of the complexities how do i charge human labor so this is the energy ratio the this is the amount of energy going in per calorie coming out so the higher you go up the more energy inefficient the system is how do we measure our own labor as an energy and if you're if you're really into want to tackle this issue this is a this is an important one to help you think about where this lies so we don't use muscular energy we say how much are you burning to do a particularly job instead we can say how much do you eat calorie wise to be able to do work it goes up a little bit  sequestered says how much energy does it take to enable you to do work not just what you eat but get to be closed and have a home and so on just for your labor so we're in assume a certain portion of your life is outside of work and this is a similar one that shows you the amount of diesel you save per hour of course work and it's speaks well to some of the flexibility of these different systems you'll notice that you tend to save the most on something like spreading or spraying because these are relatively low energy jobs and you're driving the same big heavy piece of equipment the tractor through to do the same work  and so for example we have i have friends who they bail hay with their oxen they have a bailer the poles behind that has its own engine attached and you might say what's the point you're going to run a  i just drive a tractor well they only use a third of the energy that a tractor pulling a bailer would because the tractor pulling the baler two thirds of that energy is to pull that tractor through the field that's not to say that our oxen don't burn a lot of energy to pull their themselves through the field as well i think right now it lets you know we have a little over ten minutes left and i would love to hear comments and questions and have some discussion rather than see more numbers at this point yes what does it all mean well you know that in the class i'm about to teach we do talk about telling the story and it comes down to what brought you here and what you're looking for so if you are somebody one of your goals  i want to have a job that helps the system save energy now you know these things do save some but there's other things that help the system save a lot more if your job is i want to try and push being fossil fuel free and i want to know can i make a living there are data suggest there are ways to do that and i'm going to say it's easy but you know we are getting decent yields we are getting decent returns on labor  you know it also suggests that there's not huge energy differences overall i mean the human in the animal are energy positive on their return to tractors now but it's not that far down and and when you add in kind of the statistical wavering we can't say for sure that if we did this for another ten years it's going to there could be different however we do know that into the tractor is going a lot of stuff that we don't have control over into the human animals we have control so it's it really is you know we are going to make our choices here and if you want more control there are systems out there let you have that but they're going t probably about half of my overall expenses so i cover everything else i'm in and in particular remembering that you know the tractor i mean the human and the oxen are relatively cheap systems and and give a talk sometimes i'm just a human powered production and when i do a human powered system my goal is to have a net to gross ratio of somewhere around ninety percent minimum eighty and vegetable growers who are used to kind of conventional organic will almost always come up and say you misspoke or you don't mean what i thought you meant but i do it in part of this is because with human powered i can have my dream tools specially i'm just working for myself i'm not going to supply a lot of labor just for myself i get my dream tools for three thousand bucks i mean i go out and get the very best human powered tools you know buying from johnny's who doesn't sell cheap capital is significant and so draft animals you know if you're if you are mechanically inclined there's a lot of decent draft animal equipment out there elative lee chief you can restore but if you're not or you know the time  stuff gets expensive pretty quickly we pay about twelve to fifteen hundred for a mo in machine that probably needs a little bit of work you know really a nicely fine tuned restored ones from more like twenty five hundred three thousand  so i do you know i don't want to if you decide to go out and do human powered production you can't sue me if you don't make a living you know it's there's a lot of factors in here but the data suggests you can give us a couple years to much into the human system and so over time are you could potentially go down and we are monitoring the soil if you see this talk in four years from now it should include soil tracking to see what's happening the two big things i would say is coleman's book he says you know one of the things i like about soil blocks is you have more soil there and it's good for the ceiling but else over time that becomes a significant amendment now you could say ok you're cheating a little bit you know you don't want to rely on compost for the human system yes ok we are cheating i admit but you know there's that aspect and then there's the aspect of maintaining the soil health which i think is really not well understood to what degree we can push that i think  will suffer a little bit i think they were lower than the tractor in part because the tractor had things put in supposedly ten years or so because a lot of these things will really settle into their grooves after about five or six so if you know any funders though we have funding for one more year in a and then we're on the we're on the open market a free agen go you know deep mulch systems over all the biggest thing there a little bit like the double digging the mana labor to make them happen on a commercial scale a significant not impossible problem thank you very much enjoy the rest