hoped that this case one heard more efficient procedures for education of gender based asylum claims recognizing that women suffer harms that are often the result of cultural or customary practices central for their development of women's human women's this country condition information talking about how women's rights activists cover thank campaigns to end violence against women including creating a research center to collect statistics regarding roylance against women promoting education and assistance for female survivors a fast slow down i think and recommending strengthening the government infrastructure to provide support and protection for women and girls so by saying women and girls and the president of guatemala promised the country would work to make quite a model guatemala significantly safer again for women and girls on a r three ninety six and she helped to step out the vice president help establish a special cabinet for women also if the court looks at the discussion and we are supporting documents of the adolescence and they are three ninety six it discusses violence against women and that says and young girls in particular is nowhere near a halt and actually on the rise r forty six to one and again uses language women and girls and they are for eighty five years as majority of victims housewives and students and can be deduced that students are generally young young woman her young woman perceived as our young woman perceived as a social group and yes i based on the  with the that was not the particular social group that was vance right it's young women who had suffered this thing about guatemala is one thing and want to modern society about how the young women who have suffered sexual abuse  and passing legislation to help that group that is being targeted so i think that since that group is being targeted for society in general is being that that is the group that is needs help and is trying to help that particular group that is being targeted and the the record shows that it's generally young women that are being targeted so that naturally the legislation and organizations would be so is there evidence in the record about the laws that the one i'm on congress has passed to protect women and young women in particular yes you know on a r four ninety it talks about at the end of the civil war because  about it young does change with the passage of time and evidently but you can't change right now that you're young and you can't be asked to change that you're young at this moment in time over time at some point if that is you know that in other words if that if that is indeed a distinct social group you are not capable at the moments the violence is being perpetrated against you of getting out of that social group you're stuck in your act cannot change the fact that this woman and again you know this question is probably a product of my lack of experience in these types of cases because we don't get these cases in the district court but i just found it so confusing when i first looked at this proposed definition of the social group and i found myself asking why it seems like the applicant is kind of going through contortions to make sure she still fits in the group but to make the group as small as possible or something  that whereas it seems just stepping back from the law and thinking of it as a matter of logic i mean it's it's women right why why such an effort was she represented when she when she sought to define the group in this way yes why why do you effort to to kind of almost gerrymander the group in the way that she's done here where it where does that effort come from and why why would you just say but not so that's why i was asking you to begin with what is the evidence that supports the idea that one of my own society perceives young women as a distinct social group or and there's a point some things which i think are helpful to my other question was there are women who are abused or are they looked on differently and categorise differently because they've been sexually abused yeah i was m what i was confused about is what are we supposed to ask whether guatemalan society views young women differently or are we supposed to ask whether guatemalan society views young women who have been victimized by violence because they're women differently  put in that definition yet those who have been victims right so is that the group that we're dealing with in this case yes it is th a and if there are any questions about whether there's an issue with it being a circular particular social group it's that case law has held that it cannot be defined exclusively apply its persecution so that it is impermissi  includes that she had suffered violence in the past and her particular social group all right thank you counsel your over your time  unwilling to protect her from harm and so here the agency properly considered the fact that she felt report which this court had how this appropriate for the agency letter and then the agency determined that she felt the so that reporting  here her stated reasons for why she did report where because first of all she was ashamed of the past for it that happened in part because she had a boyfriend at the time and didn't want to tell anyone that it had happened and also she just stated that she believed that the police wouldn't do anything because she had heard of one case where that happened in the past with her town believe that the police didn't do their job but this court has already held and castro pres and also no less chavez  simple just stated belief that the police wouldn't have done anything is insufficient to meet the burden of proof here and in fact ample evidence in this record shows that quite a mo is has made enormous efforts to protect people from harm she testif about a number of incidents that happened to a number of people in her town where the police just didn't do anything about it and i believe she testified and also said in her dec way from the in the past the police in her town failed to report one murder of a male child i believe so the townspeople became angry and i believe she said that they burned down the police station but she did say that there were police available to her it was the it was at some distance away proximity forty five minutes away and i believe that's walking but it's unclear based on the test  case law say that we have to look at the total record i mean just just the fact that she didn't report it right yes correct you want to get to bring us rodriguez you recently said that just because you don't report it doesn't necessarily mean you're out of you know your case fails but we need to look at all the entire record crank out yes crack down on the i don't feel obligated to consider all relevant evidence right which in this case so but if you look at the record or there's plenty of evidence in the record that th has taken enormous efforts to have twenty four hour tribunals that are open all day for women to report those police officers assigned exclusively to crimes against female victims of crime there's a possibility of us training or there's no some cases with the special tribunals the crime rate has actually dropped and then also her evidence states that quite a while i realize that many women were not reporting and they researched why this was so and i asked people i'm assuming and so basically they discovered that there's a social acceptance of violence those cultural stigma language barriers there's the u s at the state department report that's in the record notes that rape victims frequently did not report crimes due to lack of confidence in the justice system social stigma and fear from prize correct your honor but then the evidence also says that the government realized this and then has taken more efforts by creating workshops for women to report so and actually teaching women about their resources and that they have these efforts it's been successful it was her burden to show that it would have futile or dangerous for her report and here the evidence that she submitted basically was just her testimony stating that she would have had to walk a far distance and she just assumes that they wouldn't do anything femicide well your honor our position is that that issue is not right for if you now before this court and that because they agency hasn't spoken on this issue yet so this is an issue that there has been decades of litigation about this on the board obviously has considered his issues over the years and we i mean if that matter is being considered by the other case i mean why should we remain for consideration that issue here i mean it seems pretty twisted to say well there's all this violence against women and but in guatemala but because she happened to define the proposed social group in a way that doesn't quite group namely women so up against are obligated to raise all their claims that they want to rely on and there is no limit to the number of claims that they want to rely on so here so a lot of the political opening claimant to different  latest that you don't want to rely on but if the if a holocaust victim came to the united states and said i'm a member of the particular social group of young holocaust victims would we seriously deny their asylum application because they didn't define the group as holocaust victims but rather made the mistake of defining it as young holocaust victims why are they more nuanced and the reason why it's a little bit complicated is because  if if if that victim defined themselves as a young holocaust victim would we be taking the position that nobody has the responsibility to consider whether the in the box wrong they have to get their asylum application has to be denied no matter what the circumstances they've suffered no matter what harm them suffered no matter what persecution they are in reality experiencing if they define the social group incorrectly there's no independent responsibility on the part of the i j a or the beyond a or the courts to ask whether they defined it wrong and whether there should be an analysis of this the social group as properly defined i think the answer is technically yes but it's a little bit more nuanced because for example holocaust victims and homosexuals that those type of things that have been recognized to be particular social group everyone and so just because the government has passed some things for femicide they've also taken many efforts to control violence against everyone including men so as we argued in our brief there is evidence showing that that man or targeted women are targeted so yes they have lost particular social group because that is a momentous decision that the agency still hasn't decided and of course this court has to for it to matter of i mean which is the board's interpretation of the charm particular social group so especially the social distinction requirement is at issue here and also particularity does require factual findings made by the immigration judge in the first instance so here it's just very clear that she thought the petitioner did not want to rely on the particular social group a woman a quote a moment when they just can i come back  considered in this case if we manage it to the board could be but our position is that this court shouldn't remain and because she felt exhaust which is a mandatory requirement so because she chose not to rely on that particular social group and then the agency did not consider it because she failed to raise it this question and be deciding how she sort of litigated the claim that really was for her council to decide both between especially the harsh doesn't and i mean i think there are exceptions to exhaustion well you this other particular social group that you didn't raise might have been better for you why don't we send it coming up in other cases within you know agency yes so it's my understanding just based on discussions with my colleagues in the office that there are claims and the ninth circuit that and distinctiveness with these laws and with the way in which the water monster saudi is looked upon women lightly sure looks like that meet the test the problem is whether or not somebody can prove that it's on account of that's where the that's where the analysis really should be right but of course it is possible that the board could say that it is a cognizable particular social group and again it's important to keep in mind that the three i don't want to say they're afraid am actually i don't recall the nationalities so all that's was made public by the attorney general from what i can recall is just the issue and what people what they participate in bodies of the attorney general who invited supplemental briefing yes treaty intended what congress intended of the stuff mission because really woman would change the definition of persecution in some ways because it's just so large so but again the nexus requirement would be important so i don't know all the questions i really appreciate it thank you so the court would like to redefine it i have i will but point out that the point is to put the lower courts on notice of what they're trying to make a decision upon on and with regard to a particular social group the end of it says due generally discusses the particular social group moving away from our definition into a kind of talking more and generally about women as a gender as a whole so i think that if