hearing of the subcommittee in court you know that no actual property will come to order i apologize that we're an hour late that's the bad news the good news is we won't be interrupted by the during this hearing like to begin by welcoming everyone to the hearing hearing we have been titled an update to piracy on university networks and in particular i want to take a few moments to extend my warm regards to the ranking member of the subcommittee things got reversed and but the one thing i remember was one health fairly he treated me and and how well i thought we were together and i look forward to us continuing to work together our first hearing our it was a funeral of one of our one of our colleagues and so he was in here and i'm really looking forward to these next two years working with him and pleased to see other members in the chairman of our committee are here i'm going to skip some of my opening statement but not all of it that there's a little there is little debate about piracies devastating impact on the economy in two thousand and five worldwide piracy costs the motion picture industry eighteen point two billion dollars the sound recording industry over four point five billion dollars that's real money clearly there are multiple causes my recy and universities are not the sole problem but i am concerned with a two thousand and six study conducted by the l e k consulting group which attributed forty four percent of the motion picture industries domestic piracy losses to student piracy a loss of over a half a dollars that percentage seemed high to me especially in light of many universities claims that they actively combat piracy i had hoped my request to the g a o with congressman  smith that asked for a study examining the scope of piracy and the university's responses to it would help to quantify the problem i can only assume that fear of being held accountable for their answers plus discouragement from the american council on education prevented fifty percent of the student schools surveyed from responding the joint committee on higher education and entertainment communities believe that curbing piracy universities requires a multi part solution education enforcement technological improvements and affordable legal alternatives to illegal downloading many of the universities have taken these v to pro choice to curbing privacy we're going to hear from some of them today unfortunately many schools have turned a blind eye to piracy i don't doubt that there are legitimate issues that universities must grapple with including privacy and cost concerns however when a university such as a producer tells the a p that it rarely even notified students accused by the because it is too much trouble to track down action just isn't acceptable we invited a representative producer to attend today and part to thank them for their participation in the g a o study and to explain the school's policy and someone accepted but they later declined even after receiving over one thousand complaints this year the second most notices received dining diversity two still maintains that its students are not repeat offenders come pounding the problem much of the piracy takes place and universities local area networks lannes a place that unlike the internet only universities can access and control since universities are the only parties that can monitor file shar over their lands should they there some responsibility for monitoring piracy that takes place over their networks the ira released a list of the top twenty five schools that receive the most music that complaints upon the dubious distinction of issue for a number of years now and the scope of the problem may require other committees such as education to engage on the issue as well in addition individual members such as majority leader hoyer and lamar smith and mary bono explored both legislative bob goodlatte as well legislative a non legislative options for encouraging universities to stem piracy however when i hear responses such as produce to the piracy problem i'm concerned the current law isn't giving universities another incentive to stop piracy the statistics demonstrate that students engaged in rampant piracy and while congress has given universities many exemptions from copyright liability it might be time to condition some of those exemptions on action taken by universities to address the piracy problem perhaps the most ironic issues that many universities expect others to respect and there and protect their intellectual property rights to scholarly works inventions but seem to disregard or close their eyes to the theft of the creative works of others of all the parties involved in the piracy problem universities are in a unique position to help shape the moral legal and responsible behavior of today's youth i believe they must become partners in ensuring the creator's sieved receive just compensation for the works that students enjoy and i'm now pleased to recommend my friend  attributes to explain why we accomplished a good deal during those six years we were together i have no doubt we will complete much more under your stewardship you may remember mr chairman back in those days many people in this town referred to this as the howard and howard show are some called it the how and how we shall carry i received a telephone call last week from a reporter for the wire services known to all of you and she said we're looking forward to the digital parasail campuses and to encourage everest among persons of goodwill to adopt practices to combat such that and they just a few had been a bipartisan priority and i commend you  erosion of respect for intellectual property rights at the notion that something can be perfectly competent quote uploaded close quote and distributed an infinite number of times across the public internet all right pr area network without compensating the creator of the work scene foreign and fundamentally unfair billeted to do something is not committed to it with a right to do it and those who have the ability to prevent such behavior have a moral ethical and i believe legal obligation to do the job or we have before us as you pointed out a diverse panel of witnesses they will soon present to the members of this committee testimony that addresses the extent of the fact that is occurring on college campuses the range of steps universities have taken all are in the alternative all refusing to take to combat this epidemic of piracy and technological measures available today that may help to staunch the massive uncompensated him bridging copyrighted works attributable to student digital piracy that conclu previous subcommittee chairman of this committee for their diligent continued attention to the subject matter at hand we have these hearings to show that everyone involved and that we take this issue very seriously despite its importance there remains a disconnect between the problem and an effective solution because piracy on the university campuses are still is still rampant and widespread we we're having a problem obviously because we have to work to strike the right balance between standing illegal downloading and preserving academic freedoms and privacy on the one hand there unfortunately too many schools who have done little or nothing to address this problem the schools claim that efforts to stamp privacy infringe academic freedom and potentially violate students privacy in addition some universities see no incentive and no benefit to china to police illegal piracy this is to me and unacceptable response on the other hand many schools feel they have a strong and effective program and are doing it everything they can to stamp out privacy and i've been checking in the state of michigan to universities the university of michigan and michigan state university have detail policies and practices that both educate students and sanction violators these universities feel that they're doing th hard work to stop the problem but they're not willing to police or monitor their students and want to preserve the freedom and pattered access that higher education institutions represent and i think that's what brings us here there are more approaches being used there's new technology emerging may help to hear more about it but it's it's clear that we cannot allow universities to do little or nothing campus piracy doesn't just harm the copyright owners it harms the universities as well the illegal use of peer to peer networks can lead to invasions of student privacy by verses and other potential security threats to the university's network it uses ban when they could be used for legitimate purposes and so we're having this hearing because we're serious about the problem i commend the chairman in the ranking member in this endeavor and join in welcoming the witnesses thank  recognize for an opening statement business ethics education starts with undergraduate education and i believe that the leaders of the world comes in enron's of the future will be educated at those objection that will be included in our first witness is cary sherman known to many of us he's president of the recording industry association of america as such he chordates the industry's legal policy and business objectives and its responsibilities include technology licensing enforcement and government affairs in addition to particular relevance to this hearing mr sherman co chairs the joint committee of the higher education and then came the communities chairman received be a from cornell university and j d from harvard law school sort of in the hot seat i guess for these purposes our next witness at john von is executive vice president the association of markets collaborative grid technology and nationally developed the university of florida to control file sharing on both peer to peer and local area networks mr mark cuban's he was formerly the executive manager of catch he has to leave it for thirty to catch a flight to ally if he's playing to catch the five fifty two he will not make it jim davis is both the associate vice chancellor of information technology and the chief information officer at u c l a in those capacities mr davis is responsible for the school's technology planning oversight and coordinates the school's id policy you conceived is  testify is because as compared to many schools your leader into trying to address the piracy problem erodes statements of law being a part of the record in its entirety i'd ask you to summarize your testimony in five minutes or less  there's a timing light at the table as many of you know when one minute remains the light will switch from green to yellow and then red when the five minutes are up welcome you mr chairman why don't you begin thank you chairman berman ranking member subcommittee thank you very much for holding this hearing today and sharing will be the fourth conducting in as many years on the important topic of piracy on college campuses and the bipartisan commitment of this subcommittee to address the issue of piracy where it is most rampant is appreciated by untold numbers of creators whose future depends on the legitimate digital marketplace progress has been made on this issue but not nearly enough a recent study found that more than half of college students download music and movies and according to n p t a market research firm called students accounted for more than one point three billion illegal music downloads in two thousand and six the college students surveyed by n p v reported that more than two thirds of all the music they acquired was done illegally the fifth of music simply cannot be justified we have transformed our business so that music is now available everywhere and anywhere all the time whether online or on mobile phones whether by download or subscription service music has never been a successful to fans as it is right now and in fact our studies show that more music is being acquired than ever but less and less of it is being paid for the ongoing piracy on campuses particularly frustrating given all that we've done to address this issue we have met personally with hundreds of university administrators we have provided both instructional material and educational resources to help deter illegal downloading we commissioned marketing campaigns in which students develop communication strategies to deter their peers from illegal downloading and we are running their ads in student newspapers we are spoken out of congressional hearings working collaboratively and productively through the joint committee of the higher education and entertaining communities we have brought to the attention of schools network technologies that can hit illegal activity we have licensed legitimate music services that's deeply discounted rates for college students and helped arrange partnership opportunities between universities and legitimate services we have stepped up our notice program to alert schools and students infringing activity and we have as a last resort brought suit against individual file traffickers on behalf of its member labels the off a announced last week a new round of lawsuits which include four hundred students at thirteen colleges and universities around the country we've also introduced a new program in which we encourage university administrators to pass our pre launch suit settlement notices on to students so that they have an opportunity to settle at lower cost before students actually file them becomes a matter of public record lawsuits have always been a last resort for us but deterrence is an essential element in any enforcement program and it does make a difference it doesn't have to be like this we take this opportunity to once again asked schools to work with us productively to address a problem that affects us all first we ask schools to seriously consider implementing a network technical solution like red lamb the se bowl magic's copy sense to block or filter illegal p t p traffic without impinging on student privacy second we ask them to offer their students legitimate online services like the ad based ruckus that is free to users third we ask them to truly enforce the law and their own policies against infringement for activity occurring both over the internet and over the schools closed local area networks this means ensuring swift and meaningful punishment when caught not merely warnings which serve only as one for you pass of course we also asked him to continue any educational initiatives and remind him of resources available through our industry and the joint committee we also asked him to consider what are you doing to prepare your students for the digital future this is not just about music and movies this is about activity about actively educating students on the rights and wrongs of online activity the transition from physical to digital has completely altered the way we live our lives shouldn't these changes be reflected in schools message to students colleges are charged with educating our citizens isn't it essential that they prepare them to use appropriately the technology that will fill their lives the schools require more personal incentives to teach consider the dozens of hacking incidents in the past few years in which i d s reports and confidential records were stolen from school servers none of us can afford to waste a teachable moment and by the way i was delighted to read the testimony of jim davis at u c l a where he explained that this is precisely how they are viewing this issue but what about the other three thousand schools in the country we invite colleges and universities to work with us to help reduce the need for lawsuits like the ones we initially initiated last week we invite them to reclaim the integrity efficiency and legal use of their networks we invite them to safeguard the value of intellectual property that  fight them to step up as moral leaders to ensure that their students understand that stealing online is still stealing and to teach them how to be responsible citizens in the digital world thank you thank you very much john i'm testifying on behalf of a you the american council on education the national association of state universities man colleges and edge a cause and we appreciate this opportunity for me to be in the hot seat and to discuss the work of the higher education community on illegal file sharing we do take this problem very seriously illegal file sharing is unacceptable and challenges our obligation to educate students about the legal and ethical behavior that we hope to impart to them to make them good citizens five years ago we joined with our devil a and m p aid to form the joint committee of the higher education and entertainment communities let me know it's just a few of the activities that have been carried out since that time we just devoted a white paper on the legal aspects of campus peer to peer file sharing to thirty six hundred colleges and universities and we updated and redistributed that paper last fall we issued a report to colleges and universities on network management technologies that might assist in reducing the illegal file sharing we just give it a report on legitimate online digital service delivery services then we work to bring together those services with universities and pilot programs we reported on effective policies and practices identified by universit and selves for combating illegal piracy just last fall we organized a meeting of campus i t experts entertainment industry officials and commercial technology vendors to take an updated look at existing technologies that might be effective in blocking or filtering illegal peer to peer these efforts and others have produced considerable progress now over eighty percent of colleges universities have institutional policy specifically addressing peer to peer file sharing over seventy percent of institutions shaped bandwidth by type of traffic to limit possible illegal file sharing between two thousand and four and two thousand and five the number of universities engaged in the gym and digital delivery services nearly doubled ruckus networks announced just last week a thirty three percent growth in subscribers in just the six weeks after it made available for any college student free music with if they have a valid edu email account ruckus now draws several thousand students from more than seven hundred colleges and universities this follows a move to an advertising based business model prompted by data that was developed by the university of north carolina which was working with ruckus and other vendors in private projects it is fair to ask why is the problem still existing on campus first i should note that illegal peer to peer file sharing is a ubiquitous problem it is not unique to higher education student come to college with file sharing practices already well in graine file sharing is a widespread activity on commercial networks collectively serving far greater numbers of customers in the seventeen million college students we se this is not an excuse for higher education but simply to point out that illegal file sharing is a widespread problem that no sector has been able to eliminate but i would assert categorically that no sector has put in more time effort and money in combat in illegal file sharing and has higher education the rapidly growing use of legitimate peer to peer provides a major technological challenge is increasingly critical on campus to be able to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate peer to peer blackmon filtering technologies that cannot make that distinction or require reading content to do so simply won't work on campus so hard to be go from here let me identify three immediate actions in the area of technology we formed a new technology group to work with commercial vendors in entertainment industry representatives to foster new technologies designed to meet campus needs and their networks  education we've convened a group of campus officials to work with our i double a to revise a video they created for orientation last year to try to make preserve a strong message and create a product that will be widely up taken by our campuses for university policies we will conduct a broad survey of colleges and universities to develop a set of refined best practices to provide guides to those institutions these specific actions will be carried out against  backdrop of continued discourse in information sharing within higher education and continued collaboration with the entertainment industry so i welcome carrie sherman's invitation to us we intend to follow through and in continue our collaboration's there is bullet but we will continue to combat this problem by seeking to understand better what does work on campus and creating new tools to assist in our ongoing efforts thank you chairman berman ranking member coble and members of the subcommittee on behalf of my florida based software company redland i thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today about digital piracy on campuses a problem that we as a company have been working very hard to solve as you're maybe aware redland this technology was originally developed at the university of florida specifically to combat illegal file sharing on its campus housing network the success technology has been shared with this committee in prior testimony the two network engineers along with myself founded red lambda and have licensed and commercialize the technology using the name c grid integrity let me be clear about the nature of the problem peer file sharing is a disruptive technology enabled by the phenomenal growth in broadband access this is even true on university campuses where students have access to far faster networks than general population there are several new technology trends in the peer to peer protocol rayna that are cause for concern in the past people would almost always share music and movie files in plain view on the network standard inspection technologies could tell what was being sent over the network recently however in an attempt to avoid detection peer to peer protocols have begun to encrypt their files during transportation this lessens the chance of users getting caught and renders watermarking technology useless fortunately red land anticipated this trend and develop technology that is not dependent upon packet inspection and is still effective when packets are encrypted redland this approach is focused on the behavior of the peer to peer protocol not the particular movie or song that is being transferred in addition to encryption it's important to touch upon a more technologically subtle issue file sharing on dark nights in the university setting dark nights operate at a local area network level such as in a building or dormitory more users on the same local network communicate with each other the data never leaves the local area network hard to read lambdas active technology this activity remain largely undetected applications like my tunes and our tunes proliferated in this environment these applications are hacks on apple's i tunes system which permits use to be copied from one user to another on these local area networks secret integrities underlying technology approach can blanket the entire network including all local area networks darknet file sharing can be detected and enforcement policies can be used to monitor and stop these protocols another underlying problem associated with the usage of peer to peer protocols is the distribution of malware things like spam viruses and worms the two thousand stick six study that fifteen percent of the sampled executable files on one peer to peer network contain viral code with fifty two unique viruses given the virus content the blocking of peer to peer protocols on campus networks is an important consideration for network security with secret integrity network administrators can permit the use of particular peer to peer protocols at their discretion ensuring a campus environment that stops illegal file sharers and allows academic freedom to thrive where these applications are used for legitimate educational purposes i would like to stress to the subcommittee and to the educational community at large that red lambda is absolutely committed to making the technology available to educational institutes institutions at a price that is affordable and easily sustainable for university budgets we offer a substantial discount structure for universities and stand ready to offer group pricing for haitians wanting to purchase ect the technology for its member schools read lambda has invested heavily in development areas that are important to schools so that our secret integrity solution can easily install an existing network environments without necessitating hardware purchases redland it has created an interface that universities can use to easily track and identify offenders is no longer a burden to track down file sharers and identify them schools implementing secret integrity will benefit on several fronts the most important of which promotes consistency of principle and ethical behavior our universities are one of the country's most influential and prolific sources of intellectual property implementing our technology solution ensures that schools are spared the embarrassment and ill opinion associated with the careless disregard for digital intellectual property rights on their networks i have provided in my written testimony to read lambda created policy guide that can be used by schools to develop effective peer to peer policies the policy guide also gives examples of ways that schools can use red lambda sigrid integrity to deliver educational content to the students and other network users based on our experience chairman berman ranking member  subcommittee i would like to thank you for holding this hearing today and inviting me to speak on readline this behalf i encourage you to exercise your influence to some of the rent to stem the rapid flow of digital piracy on campus thank you very much jim davis chairman and members of the committee i appreciate the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee again when i spoke this panel in two thousand and four i emphasize how seriously the universe of california and you feel like taking illegal file sharing and copyright infringement over this time the university of california has been collectively building on the experiences of each of its campuses we remain as concerned as ever about how best to address to the piracy among college students in two thousand and four to describe our plans to build a three faceted approach involving enforcement legal services and education with the goal of using what we call a teachable moment for affecting student behavior we did proceed with these plans and now refer to the overall strategy as the student life approach to copyright infringement let me begin my description of the u c l a student life or coach lives irving that we continue to see little digital piracy using our main campus resources the great majority of infringement claims sent to u c l a are directed to the residential halls and as such are concentrated in only about twenty percent of our total population a figure that holds true across the u c system far see students live off campus making them part of the vast majority who use commercial internet service providers we therefore believe that a student life approach has a greater potential for impact on the piracy problem and redirecting skills and one doing perceptions of students bring to the campus than just focusing on a technological fix for a small population our quarantine approaches is the reactive enforcement part of our strategy mirroring full d m c compliance with our campus traditional process to create this teachable moment when a copyright infringement notification is received the offending computer is quickly identified put into quarantine so that the file sharing is effectively blocked internally and externally while accessing on campus student services as maintain services are restored as a function of the judicial process technology is used to significantly automated bandwidth shaping underpins management at the network level technology does not involve monitoring of electronic communications which is prohibited by u c presidential policy our primary metric for gauging the success of our strategy is the rate of repeat offenses since two thousand and four we have received a total of eight hundred thirteen infringement notifications for our residential campus population only nine percent have proven to be second time offenders and the percentage of second time offenders has remained relatively constant are no first and second offense cases has provided us with valuable input that we have used to adjust our judicial responses for both for example for second time offenders we recently strengthen the education component by requiring a technical evaluation of the computers to verify that the offending materials along with the file sharing software removed this is based on our finding that sixty percent of students remain ignorant about how the file sharing software works on their computers we also require students to scan all multimedia files on their computer to valuing whether they are still at risk sanctions are certainly a necessary part of the judicial response repeat offenders are generally put on one years disciplinary publication with further with a for any further offense resulting in suspension there have been two we know that the possibility of not graduating or being rejected from a graduate school because of illegal file sharing on an academic record cause of significantly greater anxiety than the threat of paying fines the availability of legal downloading alternatives is the second facet of the u c l a strategy the universe of california and the california state university systems for consortium to contract services from digital entertainment providers utilities get legal campaign has garnered twenty percent participation from campus residents however this is a limited success story and is particular disappointing considering the extensive local marketing efforts we put forth we see several reasons foremost is that in compatibility of service with i pods downloads are unusable on the majority of students portable players students are also significantly confused by legal nuance for example today they have asked why they cannot acquire television program the methods twelve hours after the programme heard when they can legally record the programme has it there's the current business models are just not providing good answers for students yet until that changes further efforts to promote the services can only make modest differences the last and most overarching organization that has taken the lead in integrating these facets into existing programs we are encouraged by the student life focus and i can reaffirm the fundamental premise of driving this effort as a student life issue rather than a technical issue i will end with a quote from a february article in our a newspaper this is a quote from a student who had just gone through the u c l a this mary process and i quote patricia said after her just clearing meeting she does not intend to illegally file here again it's just like going to a restaurant or store and eating their food without paying she said i a people who oppose the use of technology to block or filter content argue that it invades privacy and could block  content how is this different if it is from antivirus technology which is in common use well i think you've got it exactly right it's very much the same as antivirus technology the way that virus program works is it compares the signature of a file with a signature in a database and if the signature is in there it stops the file that's the way filtering technology works in the copyright area as well so we don't understand why there is a perception that somehow this is invading privacy furthermore the some of the applications don't even need to look at who sent it who's receiving it what they care about is whether it's the transmission of an unauthorized file in which case it is stopped so we don't see this as a privacy issue and we feel that that universities could implement these kinds of technologies very effectively without infringing on anybody's privacy rights thank you  you think the this is a good way to go that we could spread this among other practice among other universities about the non invasion of privacy to the extent that's true than it ought to be able to be applied to peer to peer as well but there are two other problems one as i mentioned t differentiate in any blocking technology legitimate and illegitimate legitimate peer to peer is a rapidly growing activity on campus that we want to encourage for research for education there are cost issues one proposed technology that our group looked at last october would have cost over a million dollars to implement and a quarter of a million dollars to annually license so these are things that we have to have to work through but i that's  reason that we formed a new group that is going to meet next week i believe to try to take a look at this rapidly changing world of technology and to the extent that we can find things that fit our policies that are  affordable and what we really want to do is work with commercial vendors who have generally been developing their technologies for other markets and explain what we need how our networks work and see if we can get them to design technologies that work for us so with do you find that to be the case house how has your the cost of your program we would always be concerned about the cost and and certainly in the in the dollar figures that we're hearing we would certainly take a very close look at that but i'm not i'm not the state that is the primary concern because if we see this as the best solution moving forward that we would try and figure that out our concern still remain around the policy and anything that gets very close to monitoring content and we are concerned about the increasing legitimate use of peer to peer kinds of applications we also are concerned about escalating technology approaches as we go from one technique we can move to others and there's different ways to take these forward and the other thing that i am trying to make the point on is that we do have a small population and we are interested in putting these resources towards the educational piece as much as these technical solutions cary sherman  or how fast are we working you know after the fourth hearing everybody is beginning to wonder if this is just scheduled once or twice a year to see you know we're doing but  we don't we don't even come to expect much to be happening anymore i think you've put your finger on it again progress really has been slow i have to commend the leadership of the join committee their heart is in the right place and they're asking that the right things be done but follow up takes a very long time the technology taskforce for example that was decided on november first but that meeting has yet to happen follow up on something that was agreed by everybody over four months ago when we should the white paper that john referred to it took more than a year for the education committee to approve a new draft out in a month or two it took a year for edits to come back for it to be we issued progress is very slow we need much faster movement in order for the university community get the sense that this is important can we help in any way  don't they don't they respect the powerful howards that we have here on the committee what's what's happening do we do we need do a call them in or do we need a  hearing with the joint committee well we very much appreciate this hearing being held to convey the seriousness with which the congress takes this issue and we hope that that will help make a difference in terms of forward movement you know the the problem that we've got is that the university community at large which john's views are reflecting on technology for example about academic freedom and so on those are important values and we understand that but programs like errors and wind wire these are programs that are optimized for the exchange of movies and music illegally then not really being used for academic purposes there's a theoretical possibility but not a real one nobody using it for shakespeare's sonnets more for anything else and it seems appropriate that when you are faced with that kind of detail covered by copyright that's why they're now with the ok they're not infringing but the overwhelming if not exclusive use of these programs is for illegitimate purposes and it seems appropriate for universities to reclaim their band with their own academic networks and maintain your integrity of their system well i just hope that the join knew let me speak to that that the i'm aware of the quote that generated the the attention and i talked to folks at purdue and this really is a case probation for the rest of this semester they take this very seriously they will go after offenders that they detect in their own monitoring processes they don't wait to be notified from the outside they have writing of education methods advertisements and the student run t v program they use the r i double a video that was made last year they have a legitimate delivery service he did you experts unfortunately has just decided to pull out of this business that they've done about everything they can so you know i don't i'm not here to be an apologist for do but just to say that the quote that we heard doesn't indicate what purdue is doing itself how seriously it's taking this or i think the attitude of higher education broadly well i'm happy and pleased to get your response and course to do is retarded to testify and i don't know if we can make reference to the chairman i empathize with your situation universities don't intervene to stop piracy some of the time don't recognize they are violating the law all you have little option other than initiating a loss in the lawyer bringing a lawsuit however is always the last step or use of the last step and can be unpopular how do you determine the chairman want to take this last step and to the universe did students receive a warning well we have notice program under which we've been sending so far this year we've sent fifty thousand notices to universities alerting them to specific acts of infringement by users of their system it was those notices that purdue told the a p reporter they dump and that they don't even bother trying to track down and though to fire the student that's why it attracted so much attention so yes we give students a lot send universities lots of opportunity to know about what's going on on their campus but in order to make the point real in order to show students who that they really are at risk of consequences by engaging the sect of eighty we sue a number of them and what we've announced is that we're going to  much greater number to increase the deterrence effect the deterrent effect of the lawsuits and we think it has had an impact on the general population we've done surveys the number one or two reasons why people stop illegal downloading  is fear of lawsuits and we want to bring that seeing reality to university campuses back to mr von d you have evidence that the number or economics value of digital piracy on college campuses has declined a point during the past five years i don't have matic data mr goble but i've heard a number of reports campuses that track this and us to survey these campuses and identify those that have been successful in reducing it look analytically at what sieges they are taking so that we can identify a new set of best practices and publicize that broadly i do think that the lawsuits have an impact and we talked about this in the in the joint committee students talk to students and one of the things that our administrators on campus have been dealing with struggling with is this sense students have great obstacles do colleges and universities assume or face if they choose to use a software program that will help prevent piracy we currently are through our commercialization effort we have the  software is in production at the university of florida would hit where it was developed where working with three other universities on the implementation of the product right now in an early adopter format and we have scheduled implementations in april for several other universities across the country and as far as expense goes our pricing model is one that's based on a per user per year licensing structure and we discount very heavily for the educational space knowing that there are budget constraints and such we actually will work with small institutions to make it very affordable we don't try and gals anyone we actually want to address the problem as far as obstacle goes with with the implementation one of the biggest challenges we have with a software solution is when you're implementing a tool into a network the soundness of the underlying architecture of the network needs to be evaluated if you have a network that has is a hodgepodge of devices that were slapped together as a university group quickly it's harder to implement a technology solution in that environment if it was well managed and has grown under a logical plan it's very easy to implement in that point on our software is that from a technological standpoint it really is a mechanism to bring together the d m c response with the judicial process so the answer your question is it is our judicial process that's in play here not the software so when i look at it from a digital process standpoint it gives us the opportunity to bring different situations as they occur to our dean of students and bring the students in discussion with those with those people and then bring it into more comprehensive programs that's what we're seeing that's what we see is working and that's also where we're getting our data from the students directly as they talk with the dean of students i've got he'd like to thank you thank you all chairman thank you very much gentleman the because i have missed the first hearing so this is my first official activity on on the subcommittee so i'm delighted to be here mr von my ears perked up when you mention something that was going on at the university of north carolina which happens to be where the two of us now from and i didn't understand what you were saying was going on at the university of north carolina so let me get a little clearer clarity about what that was what i mentioned was that we early on had to identify new legitimate online digital delivery services pair them up with universities in pilot programs to try to get these two groups working well together molly brought under her leadership as president of the university of north carolina system and also instantly as active member of the joint committee went back to the system and said let's implement a broad set of experiments across campuses so they had different campuses working with different vendors using different policies all of them use the same sort of three part structure that jim davis mentioned of education enforcement using new alternatives but what i mentioned was that that data collected by the university of north carolina in its pilot program fed to ruckus and gave ruckus the basis for moving to an advertising based business which then allowed them to number of subscribers since they made this program available and that was by this interplay between rockets and the university of north carolina so it's one of these productive enter into relationships that has really helped vance effectively i think is working very effectively they're actually working with four different then dollars but i believe ruckus is the dominant one and it's used on i think just about every one of their campuses  not to talk too much about the cost of the system and list of on talked about a system that would cost the university in the neighborhood of a million dollars with a role you a royalty fee or a renewal fee every year of about a quarter million dollars you obviously are not all that interested in talking about the specific calls but  any we anywhere in the ballpark that made missed the violence shut or the million dollar figure we is that far far far away from what you're talking about are far far away from what i'm talking about when you look at our cost structure in the way that we discounted in the university space we're literally literally talking about cents per under a dollar per month per student to use our technology it's discounted substantially into that sector let me say if i multiply out a dollar per month per student that's twelve dollars a year multiply the number of university of north carolina students that could refinements this is something we want to look at and that's precisely why we have this new committee to understand this is a very rapid the this technology is changing so rapidly so what we saw in october may be different from now different now i must say that just yesterday educators had a live webcast and featuring illinois state which is a university has been working very closely with our a double a an m p a on the whole range of options to try to deal with illegal file sharing they're looking at technology and education that in force meant they're doing us all a very good service of looking at this and it was their sense yesterday that we still don't have a technology that works but we may be getting closer and we're going to keep looking at that understanding of the importance of intellectual property and that's good to know i know the professors who write the textbooks or the regular basis understand intellectually property what it has to do with the unauthorized copying or use of their their textbooks and and i would hope that the joint committee appreciates that a lot of this in congress believe deeply that yes the mission of every great university is to pass on academic excellence but also citizenship standards and character building ought to be a great part of the university experience i was glad to hear the even though it's anecdotal but patricia's experience that she had a great lesson going through college and i'm afraid for the university students who are learning the opposite lesson that the way to go through life and enjoy the music or art or literature or whatever of your pleasure is to get technologically astute and to be able to essentially be modern day pirates even though they don't look at it like that and i guess finally mr von i would encourage if if only eighty percent of the universities have adopted a policy that means twenty percent of yet to even try or at least think about it a serious way this and then enforcing the policy is critical to i mean china has pretty good laws on the books with respect to protecting intellectual property it's the horrendous job they do and forcing it that leaves mr sherman's companies and many other s companies totally exposed so that somewhere on the order of eighty to ninety percent in some areas of technology and in music and video is pirated use in china so the enforcement is a critical that's why i'm so interested in the address them specifically number one on the cost argument and i don't want to do your negotiating for you any more than the former chairman with now our north carolina did and since we fund universities in a form as a former state legislator we fund universities i want to see good taxpayer value for anything that universities are purchasing but are you the only are you a monopoly the only company that is doing this work in the industry no absolutely not there are many providers out there some that have grown up in different sectors of the industry good work management so the more the merrier hopefully there's lots of company companies may be bad for you but it's good for a pricing mechanism that will meet the needs mr von i think fairly said that there are lots of legitimate peer to peer uses that he sprayed some protocols based on a policy statement or a policies a set of policies that the administrator in that institution implements and mr davis talked about the strong interest every great university has in privacy and academic freedom assure technology preserve privacy and academic freedom yes we actually don't look at the content of the packets because of that key concern and the one it seems to me the one argument that it's going to difficult for the technology proponents to me is mr davis is a legitimate one that about eighty percent of his students reside off campus certainly that's true a lot of universities and you're talking about on campus computer network so that off campuses would be very difficult if not impossible to get to with your current technology is that right that is correct there is one thing that can be done for in the wireless networks that are available for drop in students and effective policies can still be put into place on those networks so even transients schools or community colleges that have no resident permanent residence there can effectively put a policy in place well and finally i want to recognise that the joint committee which has been chaired recently by the president my alma mater graham spanier and he's done a terrific job of penn state and now the president of maryland will take over and i hope that what we it's in progress as mr von mr davis put out in five years i hope that everybody wonders there just how critical this is both with both in preserving election property rights but just as importantly in building character and strong citizens you know one of the complaints about a prison system in america is we tend to send people to prison and they tend to come out more expert feeds and i hope we can we will not be saying that about our university students with respect  you looks like we are going down a path of innovativeness and i thank you very much for your leadership i think it's important to address issues i'm a new member the committee but address issues maybe we have our way through a legislative or maybe some helpful suggestions i happen to agree with mr chairman i frankly believe that colleges have not done enough and i have a college student and i have a number of college campuses in my hometown and i am always eager to be supportive as much information as one could possibly  give it's interesting i don't know how many mrs scherman the students are doing their final thesis or take an exam on the most recent music notes that they are drawing down  developed because they are children of the twenty first century and children of technology it hurts my heart that many do not pick up a book and but rather see it digitally and however else they might get it so i'm  pose the question to both mr von and mr davis just to comment on this issue of campus piracy and i'm not going to say it's a big problem because i don't want to label the whole if you will it's not an industry but the whole community the whole academic community whole community of higher learning institutions but if it is a problem and if it it's widespread or it's growing is there some thought to charging students a fee akin to your student activities see enhancing it and finding some to pay as relates to the downloading of money and send those dollars to the authors or their role to represent it because it seems to be an ongoing issue and of course you just made mention that producers is trying to work through it or other universities are trying to work through it i don't know if we're going to find a common ground we've been through these questions before about protecting the work of arc of arc of art we've been through at the root the truth before from my using it for advertising other one otherwise i'm not paying them any role now we have a sort of the next step but have you thought about any ways of compensating some structural way of common compensating which were right if you will put a you're talking about is a fee that might be akin to the way that artists are compensated for music in restaurants and other big public places where you can't put a fee on a single transaction and there are compulsory licenses that are negotiated by b m i and ascap and it's very complicated but it has been reasonably successful over decades and there have been proposals that that might be one of the ways to deal with peer to peer file sharing as well that wouldn't be a university issue that's that's a nationwide corporate issue and kerry can speak to this i think that  we're neutral on that the others aspect of a fee is charging students fee for the music and this is something we've talked about in the working with the legitimate delivery services i tunes has managed to do ninety nine cents per song it's wildly successful most of our come our universities that are working with legitimate delivery services and there is a cost of that try to make it something other than a song per transaction student fee to the student so the university might cover the full cost outright it might be embedded in a in a student the person mester but our concern is that if there's a fee per transaction for legitimate services and it's up against italy go free transactions it makes it easier for illegal to outcompete legal this chairman if you would indulge me i was watching that green light steadfast chairman could just say they were sentenced and i go on this date because you've been referred to by don't like it but what what's your fix or is that something we can reasonably talk about oh well you know i'm not i'm not wedded to the structure added to the concept the industry has concluded that food can't give it away for free it have to feel like free and therefore we have granted licenses to companies offering college students access to two three million in their budget and offer to students and if they have had a very good take up rate at other universities they charge each student for it and that becomes more difficult we're talking about a couple of bucks a month even for a student paying for it himself for all the music that they want legally mr davis thank you are thinking has been tied with the what i referred to in the real testimony with the business models so we have gone down the path of  what is the right model for the students and so i do want to come back and make the point that one of things we're seeing is the existing models of legal services are not yet meeting are not providing good answers for the students and so we really see that as as a major thing to take a look at and if that can be resolved or changed and so forth we get ourselves actually set up in a much much better position to talk about the sea or the funding of this thank you it's time the jolly friends expired the mr davis we're going to excuse you now you've based on my comment you guys your time of departure to four fifteen and you're still going to have a close call if it's the five fifty two mr goodlatte but thank you for coming and if there are specific testament of all the witnesses mr von i believe that gathering facts about current practices that colleges and universities are using to combat privacy is extremely useful would you commit to helping encourage colleges and universities to comply with requests for information about their efforts on this front so that congress can make some informed judgments about the best next steps to take you allied associations initially strongly encourage participation but when we learned that contrary to the usual practice in those sorts of studies with higher education g a o is not going to preserve anonymity of individual institutional data we informed the campuses of that and that caused a drop in the rate what and i understand that there is interest in having information on specific universities but there is also a concern about how data would be used how it would be interpreted there are widely different views about what technology is if active or not effective and if you have a view of technology a university  using it then that gives a certain slant to that institution what we would like to do and whether we do it or g a o does it is get a broad survey of institutions we can preserve institutional anonymity of data but still collect by sector to understand what's happening in large institutions small institutions community colleges versus research universities we could look at analytic questions about not just technology live it's let me as i trap that take that that's a yes with conditions yes with conditions let me i got some other questions i want to ask you so let me move on of those i have introduced legislation and plan to soon reintroduce legislation to combat the use  spyware on users computers which is used to collect personal information as you know many file swapping technologies either include spyware programs or are used by hackers to install spyware programs on the user's computers the recent swath of data breaches are universities concerned that illegal file swapping could contribute to data breaches on their own systems which contain personal information about students parents alumni reflected of your concern about who has access to information that you mention your last answer what are universities doing to prevent these types of breaches from originating through file swapping technology well one of the things that we try to do in education programs is to make clear to students what a great risk these illegal legal eagle file sharing technologies bring to the students their computers and to the whole system that that's a very serious problem  so it is one of the motivations both to try to educate the students so that it's a deterrent for them but also for us to try to protect our systems it's as i understand i'm not a technology expert it is hard for the network manager to get direct control over that but it is a serious problem and we're doing everything we can to try to combat that sort of degradation that potentially comes with illegal file sharing but let me ask you about that and i'll  ask mr sherman about this too i just become aware of some technology one of the reasons for this hearing is for us to look at for in technologies that are available to college university i know mr march when ski certainly interested in that as well to stop illegal file sharing i'm aware of some technology whether or not it's copyrighted or not it would not interfere with legal p t p transmissions continuing which i know is a great interest of the universities but al also maintain user anonymity not use additional bandwidth or slow down the network and not require technical staff support i wonder mr sherman are you aware of technology like this have you looked into it are you interested in that sort of thing  you might be referring to the safe media's whoso product which came to our attention yesterday we've asked them to brief us on it and we would certainly want to bring them before this technology taskforce for this technology to be evaluated i think what this illustrates is how quickly the technologies are coming online in this area and the opportunities to take advantage of technology are real we just i have to have an open mind to exploring the benefits of technology here rather than rejecting it outright this jim and i know my time's expired i wonder if i might ask if mr von would answer the same question in light of what whether his association would be interested in i'm not a dorsey any particular technology but when i become aware of technology that might solve your problem and the problem that the congress is trying to address like no whether that's something you would be looking at absolutely i thought what you were describing sounds a lot like a l the magic to me which has a lot of the properties you describe it's very expensive and it has to be implemented across every switch but precisely because technology is changing rapidly intell interest in that if we could identify a technology that is affordable that can differentiate legitimate from illegitimate that doesn't invade privacy or read contract content we would jump at that time gentlem if i've got it right that my space and you too are they didn't start here but they have moved to a point where they're beginning to filter out copyright works they didn't always conclude that was their obligation but it seems to me as if i understand it correctly they're moving in that direction and i was warning if you could share with us whether or not universities and colleges are doing the same well we don't have the same issue that i think that would be analogous to material that would be residing on our servers and we have an absolute obligation to make sure that we are not infringing or we'd be sued in that case and so we take that that part very seriously but with peer to peer technology which is conduit traffic that doesn't directly reside on our on our  servers we have a we have a different problem we are trying to do everything we can to avoid illegal file sharing which is analogous to you tube putting up some copyrighted material without permission which is not acceptable could you share with me in your testimony i apologize i didn't hear your oral testimony in the written testimony you cite the two thousand and six camp this computing survey which indicates eighty percent of universities and colleges now have institutional policies that specifically address file sharing share with me i'm a freshman at x college one of these eighty percent colleges and i show up big van and all the packages and i get my meal card and moving to the dorm what process occurs knees eighty percent colleges to that new freshm to make that freshman aware of the university's policies when it in one of your colleagues just brought up earlier the difference between having a policy and activating and enforcing the policy and so frankly my guess is that the range of ways that that eighty percent deals with that policy is fairly large but what is increasingly happening is that when freshmen get on campus this is a central part of their orientation they are informed about the policies we are going to work with our i double aid to try to get a broader uptake of a video that will kind of catch their attention so that they learn about the problem c's increasing number of institutions will ask them to sign an acceptable use agreement so it's a and i should say that our campuses have for decades had had acceptable use policy as dealing with copyrighted material but i would say five years ago not very many of them had that translated into specifically into peer to peer file sharing now what they have is a copyright policy that is specific to file sharing to make it available to students when they come in the inform them that that's going to be enforced and when they're detected violating that policy the sanctions come into play if i could just say at this when we did our orientation video we did surveys pre and post in order to see the effectiveness of the video and what we found was that although many of the universities had these policies students simply weren't aware of them the video helped reinforce the notion that this is against campus policy and they could lose internet access you think is in the illegal activity so the policies may be there but people just don't know about them would you agree mr vaughan that is appears students by and large don't we're not aware of the policies well i think that has been the case and that's what's changing and we want to take actions to make a change for that's why we want to identify these best practices you know at a large university with a lot going on and students coming in for the first time there's a lot going on but institutions have figured out how to get this message across and we want to spread their their their methods across the higher education community thank you expired good gentleman from florida ever gentleman from thank you mr chairman i approach this issue with a somewhat unique perspective i care very much about intellectual property rights having been on this committee for now seven years and representing major intellectual property interests like disney and universal frankly and also very close with the university was until recently the chairman the higher education committee and now the ranking member and so last year i was able to successfully include some language into the higher education act h r six o nine which set aside grant money that universities could apply for that would help them in purchasing these sorts of technologies and to make an effort in the interest  straight talk i think that as we move forward and caring very much about both groups i would say mr bond i would i would tell the folks who represent that i see a sea change coming a little bit i think a university that throws away in french mint notices or relies on the old excuses of academic freedom or privacy and doesn't have a best practices policy is not interested in technology i would say the hammers come in and it's probably going to come sometime later this congress and so i want to see universities get serious about it and i know that some are let me begin with you mr march one ski this technology was developed at university of florida correct before the technology was implemented university of florida what was the situation like in terms of bandwidth being used and getting notices of violations there was approximately seventy percent of the bandwidth was being consumed by peer to peer services and between fifty and eighty d m c a complaints were being received for months after the technology was implemented at university of florida what was the situation like in terms of been with the notices the ban with dropped significantly to twenty percent of its prior measure and since then the d m c a complaints in the residence halls they've received one in four years so virtually nothing and i don't mr braun said that some technologies can distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate follow sharing can your technology make that distinction no that's that's quite the opposite approach we actually take it at the protocol level and the reason we do to do that is to preserve the privacy of the contents of the packet any technology that tries to distinguish legitimate versus illegitimate as looking at the content you don't look at the content you know well as if a person is legitimately downloading a song from i tunes with your software  because of the condition of not looking at the actual contents of the packet we do monitor based on the overall protocol the behavior of the network and follow the policies that the administrators in that institution does grid software and then john academic freedom absolutely not for institutions that one to use peer to peer for legitimate use it's a simple rule that we establish in our policy manager that allows them to use it for that purpose we can break it down by logical subgroups a particular class particular grade level a particular user community and share that in the policy so that it's enabled ok mr von i sometime hear the defense of academic freedom just so we clear on where you stand would you agree with me that under no circumstances is the defense of academic freedom an excuse to illegally download music or movies absolutely no question ok back to you mr march wednesday in terms of those situations where an institution has opted not to use your product or one of your competitors products what reasons you hear for them declining the first and foremost is that they have policy but they don't know how or don't want to implement those policies it's very similar even in the example we heard earlier when you have a policy even if you make people read the policy if you don't enforce the policy it becomes rendered useless it's like having a highway with traffic rules that are never in force and about the money issue that we've heard so much about this year we have never actually talked to a person and have been declined the business because of price we have said that we will work with the institutions fit into their budget cycle and allow them to pay as necessary mr feeney star to cover some of this i realize as the head of this company probably think and maybe have a good claim to saying that your your technology is the best out there but give us an idea of how many people you have to compete with in this arena in the immediate arena there's about five major competitors and when you extend out past th universities responded that violence shouldn't privacy concerns others that the copyright act impose little legal obligation on network operators to monitor or investigate violations of the act that may be true vice saying that sort of the state of the artist to have a technology that filters out illegal distribution not not a requirement to be the technology that your company produce or any other but  imposing a requirement or narrowing the safe harbor to say if you are using a technology that is designed to address this problem then you're in the safe harbor and if you're not then you still maybe make a reasonable effort but you're not in the safe harbor like to get your feelings about a change along those lines and and second because there's a real problem with enforcement we don't have the resources in the federal government to investigate every violation  it's been suggested by some that we employ local law enforcement to be a force multiplier and that we empower local law enforcement local police to go after certain intellectual property  violations and then keep the fines that would be assessed for the violations as a way of financing the enforcement and i'd be interested to get your thoughts on both of those proposals and i directed to all of you so carrie may disagree with this but it's strictly speaking universities are not liable for peer to peer file sharing its conduit traffic that's not hosted on their servers and yet virtually every one of our institutions responds to notice of claimed infringement i don't know if any institution that doesn't and some of them do it i think because they believe that legally out of the out of the obligated to it all and all in all and all of them do it because it's the right thing to do  do you do so i don't see a problem there are institutions when they get notices of claim to claim claims infringement they respond and and and and take appropriate action and if there safe harbor for two reasons technology changes so fast and i doubt if you'll ever have or have a technology that everybody agrees works so maybe we would adopt a technology i assume  that this procedure would apply to commercialise piece as well as universities and i frankly don't know how they respond to claimed infringement notices i suspect they in operate but kerry may know we do it though as and as a matter of proper polyp policy not because we think about applies one analogy and i don't know how opposite of this we have do not call lists and there's an obligation to check the do not call list to make sure if you're a telemarketer you're not calling people to sign up for that if the content producers the put there their digital made use of that information to decide you know what what was sought to be protected that would you know i seems to be a pretty viable way of doing this now again i'm not suggesting we mandate any particular technology or even mandate earlier that their parent may now new encryption techniques for the infringers that override watermarks and defeat some of those technologies there are technologies that  filtering that are quite quite effective at identifying specific copyrighted material that those owners don't want to be distributed on peer to peer networks but they're very expensive so this is all changing and trying to figure out how to get technologies that can adapt to the college environment that can be affordable is what this new group are putting together is all about probably have to put together a new group files are encrypted which shows how far technology has come and i think the other problem i agree with john that the dns most universities are very responsive to d m c a notices the problem is it's a reactive system it's only when we find the problem that they will do something about it when in fact it's their network and they have the ability to see what's going on on that network especially on the local network where people are using the network every day to infringe dorm to dorm rather than over the public internet they have the ability to do something about it technology would enable them to do it in a relatively automated way that would be a much much better solution than putting the burden on copyright owners all over the world to monitor every network at every university to try and root out infringement yes just to follow up on last point about police and forcing the law again back to my prior analogy if you have laws on the books and they aren't enforced there are going to be infringers and if you are completely reactionary to being warned then the laws aren't going to be as effective as they need to but the best analogy is imagine traffic at a traffic intersection where there's a camera now monitoring for people to go through red lights if you were actually caught every time you went through a red light independent of the time of day six m on a sunday morning you're going somewhere oh there's no traffic on i can go through it well if you are being and that those laws are being enforced the behavior will change there's been reference to the university task force on requirements for filtering networks mr ron this really is to you and the new response from mr sherman as well because you're the joint committee on accreditation you have that you now since november hasn't met it hasn't set up a process yet but you've talked and you've mentioned here you're going to come up in the spring with a series of recommendations i hear that that i are you talking about well you can never get everyone to agree on a technology i thought the purpose of this was to sort of agree on a technology a series of technologies a menu of technologies that were effective that work collaboratively collaboratively agreed to by the universities eason by the cop and i don't mean institutions and their associations and i'd like you respond do you expect spec that to happen and and if that happens what will you do to implement it i mean i mean i mean i mean i see some very nice letters from earlier decision positions by the joint committee which said we've come to a nice agreement here take a look at this and see if you're there we didn't have a hammer at that anyone should be through i think that the way this is going to work is that we're going to get university experts know these networks know how they work know our policies and sit down with commercial technology vendors will work with our devil a n m p a other entertainment expert folks so that we have all three parties working on this problem because one of the things we've discovered is some of the technologies that have been designed for other sectors are sort of forced it and don't fit well into ours so what we want to do is explain to a commercial vendors what our needs are and try to give them the information they can they can use to design more effective products if we can create technologies that that that accomplish this will make every effort i mean we can't command institutions to to use these but if if there are are affordable effective technologies that fit our policies and our timeline is about a hundred twenty day process for this group you can be assured we will do everything to promote that in to encourage its implementation but i met about never green there will be a technology arms race so let's say that in june well i don't think again that ik but you know then two years from now we'll need to do it again developing products without input from the university c i o's about what their needs are so we need for them to be commute kading but more than anything else we need universities to be basically telling the private sector that they would welcome the use of effective technologies so go out and make them invest in them have more companies get into this field because there won't be a supply unless there's a demand and therefore we need the universities to basically say we think technology solutions can be a very helpful element of addressing this problem and we like to see those technologies and work with you to help implement very good if there's nothing else i want this program kishen can play in the piracy both proactively and reactively students already know probably know that it's not legal to download a whole movie that's in the theaters but they're doing it anyway and it would seem that that could be counterbalance acted by ethics education of course you might also need technical legal education on what is copyright law because students may not even know i think mr davis pointed out that it's illegal to download last week's episode of the office over a peer to peer network institutions of this of the society both have an opportunity to educate those who would violate copyright law are there plans by the a you were by the intertainment industry i think you know there are several reasons that i mentioned in my written testimony for universities caring about attacking illegal peer to peer file sharing probably i think the most fundamental one is our central obligation as part of the overall education of the students to produce to produce students that are good citizens that understand the culture that was trying to attack this in that teachable moment that jim davis mentioned is one of the most fundamental parts of this and ultimately one of the most effective on a fifty thousand student campus that may be difficult to implement but u c l a is a pretty big campus and they seem to be doing it pretty effectively we need to marry that with some more immediate techniques like enforcement like technology but i think trying to incorporate that  is is a very important part of this whole whole effort some institutions do it better than others and when you have a busy institution with everybody doing a million different things when you can identify a set of practices for teaching students freshmen when they come in violators when they're caught in effective ways and you spread that across the campuses you can really disseminate effective practices effectively and that's part of what we hope to do and i hope that you would educate students not just on it's illegal so it's wrong i mean the reason you don't go through that red light is because if a hundred people do it even at six in the morning we're going to see one of them  an accident when i haven't seen adequately explained to students is not just how the entertainment industry would be hurt if everything gets copied and pirated but how our culture would be hurt we all like see in the movies and if there's no way to pay for them then they still make them but then the design them out to get a couple hundred million bucks with a plot of product placement and you can just imagine how boring and contrived the plots will be if you have to do is write the movie not to garner the biggest box office because there is no box office but to garner the biggest product placement and i would hope th that your education would be both in terms of people who make content deserve to be paid but what happens when they're not but i'd like to turn to kerry and ask what is the entertainment industry in a religion and speak for the entire industry doing to educate the public as to what copyright law requires what it allows what it doesn't and why it's unethical all have different educational messages because different messages resonate with different ages when you're young whether it's right or wrong or legal or illegal makes a big difference when you're in college it makes very little difference so you need a very different message and in fact that's why the lawsuits have been so effective because college students are much more focused on how something will impact them rather than how it will impact somebody else but i think that we're trying to come up with messages that will make a difference the orientation video that we created for college students was intended to tell them what they've got at stake in the issue the fact that there may be fewer movies or less music has not resonated as a message but i think this is also part of a larger issue it's not just copyright it's that i don't see any program anywhere whether we're talking about high schools or universities where how you live in a cyber world is taught it's a totally new ethical situation and there is nobody taking responsibility for how we're going to do that we need that curriculum thank you from them has expired i think all my colleagues for their great participation it is the chairman's intent and have your so assuming the congress is still in session and i have very little doubt that we will be to find out how many of the association have adopted the recommendations of the committees that you've all put together to develop the technological recommendations to implement a more effective policing of these networks and i thank you all very much for participating and and during the hearing