well the regular meeting of the water resources committee please come to order it is wednesday january twenty seventh two thousand and sixteen it's about six minutes after nine if we get started like like to remind everyone to please check your cell phones and make sure that they are on the side of that mode that would be very helpful so we won't have interruption and i'd like to introduce the members that are here today i'm out of space time and i'm the joining us later not members voting members of this committee are done boozman and ricky will come on and so they're not required to attend but they may be watching anyway with us from administration we have learned the director of our committee secretary thank you so much they have in the district offices we have denise hernandez in london eight good morning denise good morning we have done lo good morning members today's agenda we have one item on it and it is w are for the water use and development plan it is the committee is in receipt of co write revised statutes you may recall that our last meeting that this committee requested a status report on the water use and development plan update we are going to be doing that today but before we get started on the presentation members we'd like to go ahead with public testimony public testimony will be limited to the item on our agenda today and if you wish to testify ask him please sign up with a dislocated in the eighth floor lobby or one of the district offices listed on our agenda testimony is limited to three minutes at two and a half minutes the light will turn yellow and have three minutes the li bling read if you are still talking at the three minute mark i will ask you to please stop when testifying the state your name in who you are representing if you are representing anyone besides yourself or a group we have established a connection to the district office this is the fear will rotate through each of the sites in the night off is denise do you have anyone wishing to testify thank you so much denise in them ok office l o l do you have anyone wishing to testify good morning good morning everybody excuse me here to testify and item number w our dash for water resources on our agenda last summer another year we're into and i also came down yesterday to at the end of the day to see what had come in over the weekend that i would have had a chance to go over still nothing questionable about transparency i out of that tell you've got a community here that's livid with the fact that these are individual people they're not part of the group nor am i but anyway  sounds like talk a good story about transparency and then watch what happened so i knew nothing about this or any of the things that were presumably to have been a seventh floor folder nothing  i've had like three minutes the opportunity to do this and i will gallop over closer that screen to be able to see it when it's shown at the last meeting that we had when the council wisely did not see the  vote the show me the water bill and we were promised that we had actually been working on that all along so i'm not too sure i understand the why of the delay in that ok i would like to quickly  the state of the state address on tuesday he said we must operate with truth we must follow the law we must be spending federal money timely we must  do a great deal and infrastructure updating we must make sure that everybody values the public trust including for water good thoughts i also would like to share what was in honolulu advertiser on sunday's paper and its six point five million homes still get water from lead pipes now they are dealing in this particular one about chicken that's pretty much everybody screen perhaps now but one of the things i took out of that was trouble i'm quoting now trouble can start when he makes a change in its treatment process so taps into a each individual really is given a large responsibility and i think most people would be surprised to learn that they cannot trust what's flowing from their tap in many cities a quote by marty minutes mark edwards he's one of the shows who has been over here on maui working with us at that time and very well recognized so i'm anxious to see what this is that we're supposedly have been working on and i will take good notes and thank you all for your willingness to continue on to pursue this for the health of the community thank you very much members and i need to clarify the testimony  thank you very much welcome ms weldon bank madam chair there's no one else waiting to testify members audience anybody would like to testify please come up and you can do your people work later we have someone approaching the podium role i couldn't contain my disappointment for the apathy of the general public especially the developers who are so concerned about where the water is going to come from and what kind of a plan you look at the newspaper every day this criticism of the department for not having  speaking of working on it for twenty three years and how important it is to this community to have a plan so we know where we're going we know how it's going to guide our future so that i buy twenty thirty we can add to twelve thousand homes that's in the general plan and ye we speak to empty chairs i think this is one of the main problems  where one side looks at the other and says it's your fault because you haven't done it and the other one says well you know it's not my responsibility a big to differ i'm in the sunset of my my career and i've been around for over thirty years and this is the worst worst scenario of apathy that i have ever seen i apologize to the members of this newsgroup for taking time to be here today i apologize to mr taylor for having to put on a water develop plan for two people and i know many are out there watching but for crying out loud what did it take to come down here and support how disappointed i am in this community which i love very much but this is the reason that we're in the position we are today yes we talk a good show cheer apologize for scum swing off but the topic is today however it is important it's important to me and i know it's important to you that everyone take to heart what is being said here today you know talking to empty walls talking about our future and talking about the future of my grandchildren and i can't again tell you how disappointed i am in this general public for not taking the time to come and express their thoughts because that's what you're looking for you're looking for  thoughts how can you legislate in a vacuum life is gone but if it seems like we have difficulty making it a priority we have difficulty wanting to pay for it we have difficulty wanting to make the decisions that our community has to make in order to move forward this chair is going to work very very hard on making sure that this water used in development plan and moves on and that it gets done and that we take care of business here because we have to our lives and the lives of everybody coming behind us depends on it so thank you very very much for being here i appreciate it years fighting every battle you can think of right joe b every battle and trying to get moving forward and we have meet small steps thanks to mr taylor and others you know i got to thank you very much for helping us get to this point but naysayers out there who have all the excuses in the world why we can't do what we need to do they don't calm they don't participate and then they wonder why what this is why right here  because you're not here to speak up let it be said to dig by myself i think by you and me by so that you'd be a part of the solution for your part of the problem you take the choice i hope you choose to be part of the solution because that much to my county a strong and makes my county but if you choose to be part of the problem then down the road when i look back somebody says why i was in this i can see look at the gallery on this date january twenty seventh two thousand and seventy two thousand and sixteen nobody in the gallery and to ok thank you there is no one in the district offices and it appears that there is no one else in the gallery some members without objections i'd like to close public testimony for today not just here thank you very much so ordered and i'd like to note the pres the water used in development plan and you remembered our discussion at our meeting last meeting where this became a big issue as we were discussing the show me the water bill and we made the request to the department and i want to thank them very very much because they have been scrambling it's just been a very short time since we asked them to put the presentation together for today and they've done an outstanding job but i had a chance to preview it and i think you're going to find it very interesting and i hope that the public who is not here for whatever reasons they're not here will watch this either now or later on in a reprieve rebroadcast and they will understand a lot better about what is going on with the water use and development plans so mr taylor in your remarks before we get started oh no madam chair we're ready to go ok and would you introduce to our president your yes i'm dave taylor director of department of water supply and with me is eva bloom and seen the chief of our planning and water resource division ok do we need any time to get radio we just go we're already ok let's just take off then ok so thank you  chair members and the for the opportunity to put on this update and so members as we go because it's the only item on our agenda today and we don't have a whole lot of testifying then i think we have adequate time to do it as she goes to the presentation it's something grabs you let's try and deal with it right there is that you raise your hand i'll let you ask your questions that we clarify as we go then when we're done we again sometimes it's better if we have enough time to do so i'm just going to go through a couple of slides with a couple big picture items and then handed over to vote for the majority of the presentation so we're going to go through the purpose and requirements some of the why water plan our approach and some key issues so before that just a couple of big picture items so the council previously passes the highland plan and that defines land uses big picture land use not only urban growth areas but agriculture conservation et that and development plan is really a companion document that allocates water to those land uses not just department of water supply but any land that has a need for water and where that water is coming from so it's going to have planning biographer areas and allocate water to the land uses we like to look at it as a companion document to the maui ivan plan it's not a department of water supply infrastructure plan it's a where does the water for the maoism time come from for which purpose it's a companion document supposed to be consistent and supposed to be at that same level of detail so that starts focusing people at us that it's not going to get into what pipe size and what year and you know where's the pump going to be it's a big picture water allocation effort current water used in the count on maui island is about half a billion gallons a day as shown in this chart how that water is broken down is the great great majority is that green section in agriculture there is a light green section irrigation that's things like golf courses which are not agriculture municipal and purple which is not d municipal and the department of water supply sherry in orange so this starts giving a sense that the department of water supply is only responsible only involved in a very small amount of the actual water use on maui there's been a lot of discussion about the department's role we want to be clear that the water used to element plan is about all water use and our portion is really just the orange portion it's all important but our departments actions as utility are really the orange portion so this is all the water available orange is the surface water that's currently diverted graze the untapped groundwater and blue is the use groundwater so that totals right now eight hundred thirty three million gallons gives you a sense of how much water there is on the island how much is being used in that same size eight hundred thirty three million you see the yellow and the purple that's g w s is share of what we're using yellow is our surface water and the purple is our ground water so you start getting a sense of d w m as a utility is really a very very small user of water when we talked about show me the water bill and people said well to move forward we need to know that there's enough water for the deed of us utility clearly you look at this and even if there is substantial growth it's really just a tiny tiny fraction of the available on tap ground water and even of the currently used surface w utility the issue we've been raising in this committee is that there are a number of different strategies to get water to our utility and you can see that from this graph where very small user and even if we have a substantial growth rate it's really just you know a drop in the bucket it's really more about money and infrastructure than it is about whether or not there's enough water available the other big item is you think about the orange section of surface water that's being diverted as we said last time i sat here in front of you i think literally while i was sitting here is when each cns put out their press release that they be shutting down sugar operations at the end of the year so you think about that orange section used about one hundred  hundred fifty million all of a sudden what happens with that orange section is a much much much bigger issue then the d ws purple and yellow sections of you know where we put in palms and this and that so the water use development plan that whole orange section or most of it has been tied up in contested case hearings for nice molly so you can get a sense of the struggle we've had where we're trying to put a water use development plan together there's this huge uncertainty with these contested case hearings dealing with the whole orange section we've been focusing with this committee on the purple and yellow about how is detail us going to deal with its infrastructure and its financing issues to try to get that section a little more nailed down while we've been watching closely and participating in these contested case hearings with the uncertainty of what's happening with the orange section you can see that there is also not a lot of different options if the new diversified isthmus uses substantially less than one hundred fifty million gallons that orange section we could substantially get a significant amount of that the mayor is in high level discussions with a and b about what those possibilities might look like a significant portion of that orange could go back into the streams so all of a sudden we can see that the water use develop and plan b again because g w s utilities such a small share these other issues dwarf it so we've been following that we've been struggling to try to get this document done wanted to be useful and recognizing that the single biggest issues are completely out of our control and we don't even control the timeline so with that sort of a big picture of what we're trying to do this to it's there if i can interrupt  that i understand this pie chart is based on the available water not the water that is currently being used you can actually i was looking at the next slide i believe  we know one that has been defined as we speak in the two contested case hearings right but as far as the working of the the blue sector is that it would be correct to look at that as what is the amount of although he is being considerate and being sick at home he's working and he said it's ok that i tell you he's watching he has a question and unlisted taylor he'd like to know if we can grab two twenty i guess i'd appreciate if we can get through the presentation and then start if there's questions on the presentation perhaps we can handle them during the presentation but what what we need you in the future maybe would be best for after the presentation ok that's fine no problem go water use and what a reservation requests it should also provide guidance to the county set forth in the my county code guiding the council in conservation development and use of the county's water resources and briefly the required these to inventory existing what he uses future land use and demand and prepare regional plans for what a development plan has to be consistent with this components of the state highway water plan that is the water resources protection plan which is  prepared by this date what a commission the water quality plan that's prepared by department health and the other state and county land use castigation policies it also have to be updated periodic so we had substantial work being done starting in two thousand and four by a consultant that focused really just on the department systems and the central chapter was i quite a bit with the department planning in their process updating the community plan from some analysis for the county long range needs have been analyzed and partially completed a project or a cost we're talking about a twenty year timeframe so it doesn't really make much sense those numbers become outdated very quickly this plan is including all water systems and you cysts on maui and it's not  the timing objectives with available resources and amount we're now at the point where we're starting to identify and prioritize various resource options and strategies and continue with the public process to come up with viable options so those can then be coordinated with other state plans integrated with whatever available  various watershed management plans that we have for my island this is not a finite list this continues to evolve in with the public process but what we've heard so far in in our meetings and also conflict with each other districts on maui as well this a few targeted meetings policy board meetings just the last couple months we had we held a couple of smaller stakeholder meetings to vests  certain issues that we have we needed more input before completing they get out to go out and percent the public we are ready now at this point to start open public meetings again we have enough data to put together some strategies and we're planning to hold regional public meetings throughout the island harm out west side of country and central with the aim then of course to present a drought first to our board  who will have a chance to have input before that is presented to this body and eventually they missed to get this adopted by the state what a  commission for the purpose of integrating available resources with demand projections and various planning boundaries we selected aka first sectors most suitable of course planning boundaries an example would be the central sector which is lavender colored spans for different community plant districts the community down boundaries are dark purple the sector other portions are within and those are in two different community plan districts it also includes portion of the central service district so my point is just that it's not a very straightforward so we have we're using best available data on maui we have thirty nine of several hundred diversions being reported so we really just we depend on us yes and the four hundred eighty eight diversions report most of the major the large divergence report and most of the small ones do not so this is being defined and assessed by you as just a commission is process so for certain areas we really are quite uncertain both what is available as to resource what is the occurring industry and what is being diverted what's the difference between a small user and our large user is like two hundred thousand demand projections mentioned we are using two different scenarios the first one is the land use space full build out of its own investigations and this again shows what director taylor was referring to in terms of demand for agricultural use we did a graph where that takes agricultural land use out of the equation because almost all of them outside urban growth boundaries that is not in conservation as i recall for these loan and never has all of that land been cultivated you have thirty six thousand acres that going to change over the next few years you have a very small portion that's diverse and so if you're taking  projected demand through twenty thirty five and you can see there that the minister paul hughes being departed water supply is really what's what's supplying ninety percent of municipal use on the island start regulated by the department health and the minister paul supply we're going to reach somewhere around fifty five m g in twenty thirty five  so this is where the rubber hits the road so to say we have been we have met with stakeholders various interest groups to trying to gather policy guidance without really getting into detail of the specific resource options and this is what we are ready to do now we can put together the data we have defined some resource options conventional resource options meaning development of new ground and surface water sources alternative resource options that would be recycled water brackish water  water resource programs and policies that could be conservation programs or resource augmentation or preservation reforestation then weighing those relative costs meaning no cetera and where this is not a exclude exclusive list of resources used but a lot of studies have been completed by in house consultants u s g s and the commission that we can use that resource continues is not certainty so not saying that these are the only issues but these were some of the key issues that we identified then we want to get more input from from the public including this body alternative sources resource efficiency in protection drought and climate change resource available for other uses there are not public trust uses so option strategies are things that we have been discussing is continuing to meet with the representatives of the twelve on maui and identify the efforts which is great still fuel that is based meaning that it includes the areas reaching all the way to the ocean and reefs another option considering it's reduce the reliance on surface water in dry season that's again in terms of resource use agast a big player by magnitude almost all land outside urban growth boundaries is sound ag now more than ever there's really great uncertainty as to the availability of the list so we have the objective in the marland plan to reduce proliferation impact of residential development outside urban small town and rule growth boundaries so we have that country so twenty percent to ninety five percent growth those are two very different scenarios terms of drought and competing demands while maintaining that seasonal flexibility because it really is just in summer time where there is typically this conflict in in use for surface water and then of course we have conflicting maintained sustainable resource and minimise adverse environment impacts versus maximise reliability and minimize the cost so options are you saying lower quality water which i was corrected last night by the commission surface water it's not a lower quality water i mean this is treated surface water in terms of quality it's is the in the public trust used whenever that's possible and economically feasible regardless of his commercial residential has decreased as we have increased the number of services throughout the island part of this is of course due to conservation programs and we continue and accelerate demand of supply side conservation programs this is more a question about which ones are most have the greatest impact technical potential  regulations for conservation design retrofitting etc the department also over the last few years optimize production from what we have pump efficiency increase storage and repair program definitely more to be done in resource efficiency but that has been in meetings with stakeholders this is something to always have a lot of support we are aiming at continuing and accelerating these programs looking at the impact of climate change on the ground water levels local climates so we have models showing pretty in do we consider conservation measures adequate or are we looking at crew full basal back up in areas that are prone to drought should we increase role water storage purveyors start reliant hundred percent on surface water but when they are do they need to look at more reliable backup  there's a lot of support in the marlin plan for resource protection restoration both in terms of what is shared streams protecting and maintaining the what a delivery systems themselves mean well so strategies are to continue having a consistent funding program of watershed protection to implement well that protection the department has to weather protection program in place and a draft ordinance master plans but the department for the private purveyors and it's resource based meaning all prefers streams not beings focused on the department systems only using previous studies and data are going out for more broad public input next month already and to do to address the local the key issues and the conflicts rather than avoiding them we're trying to bring this up at the stakeholder meeting some months we have to thank you very much eva members we're going to take our morning break for a one on one or two reasons one we're now with the prison to give you some time to just what you've heard you get a lot of information thrown at you and maybe you can organize questions that will go down to ruin take them when we come back secondly mr victory is a nickel co and hopefully he'll be by the end of the break and be able to come back and participate so we're going to take our morning break and we'll with the meeting please come back to order members we had a wonderful presentation here and i know that you probably have lots of questions and it worked mr victor you know was able to complete his naked call and he's back with us we welcome you back mike but i am sure i know you are trying to be in two places at once which is very difficult but would someone like to i just wouldn't like to have some clarification and this it doesn't have a page number but the heading is identify evaluate and prioritize strategy options interim inch inch screen flow standards can you clarify for me what what are we looking at to a man so i can have a better understanding the interim  back up then going out and having stakeholder meetings and looking forward to attending and see what transpires out of those my one and slide in particular and i guess they're not  so i just had a question in regards to law and i know we've been putting a lot of monies into well wells in particular and so are those to help assist so this that's in we don't as much identify that this well is for you know people on the street or something like that but we can move the water around and there may have to be certain improvements that come in for what evil is referred to earlier as we want to recognize pipes and that kind of thing but we want to recognize that there is water for d w i uses by tapping valko for the details of which will handle as part of our c a p program that is and thank you for pointing it out that sort of this line we're trying to make between what are used  but in regards to that booster pump that was to be slated for la hina was that to accomplish that transmission of water from saved into a liner that would have helped in that that second part i was talking about about being able to move water around a little more so the water's development plan is making sure there's enough volume for the region something like that is about how do we as a utility move water from one point to another within our utility so that kind of thing is important obviously but it's not going to be covered in the water use development plan because it's not about a regional supply versus demand it's about localized service ok thank you would i guess i'm trying to get at is that in my mind now we have one source and only one at this point but you're saying that we can move water around but i'm understanding we really don't have unless we build out our infrastructure so i think in the plan it needs this state is there redundancy is there backup for certain users is richard urbanized areas or way what have you so you know and where is that going to come from and are we in place to implement it and transmit it ok i am trying to hone in on line because that's what represent and i have questions and the community has questions right now so our west maui region is dealing with in the water to plan as as a region there are a number of there's two different surface water treatment plants a number of wells each feed in this interconnected piping system the issues that you raise are important there are more relevant props and a different discussion not about the water use development plan but about us as a utility and how we're providing reliable service and why our c a p plan matches that it's those normal discussions that we have in this community  i guess the bottom line i'm getting calls and i'm sure you are oh yeah sounds of how we work on that list but i know that i mean that in relation to i guess so with the water use and development utilized so we may be factoring that into has that department is that somewhere in here i know you're seen figures contested cases are happening you're not quite sure but day said they're thinking fifty percent so more this gets down to two i think probably the single most important point we wanted to make today and thank you for pointing that out it's back to this to this  yellow and purple are our total usage for the county the orange is the surface water that's currently being used and let's assume that a bunch comes up if you'd asked me a month ago or so i would have said the solution for the up country meter list is going to have to be well it's going to have to be more and more wells pumping out water from sea level building distribution systems that's what i would have said a month ago all of a sudden today a month later there is a excellent possibility that we can get more surface water at the plant site or related site that somewhere near there expand that and that could be our source that water would be brought in at eleven energy elevation we don't we have to pump it from there higher versus pumping it from sea level higher it would solve a lot of problems from a volume standpoint it wouldn't solve the piping distribution problem it's still located at you know point and we have to get it to points x y  so it whatever ends up growing there is thirty six thousand acres of something that is less thirsty there is a very good possibility that we could end up with more surface water that could all of a sudden change our complete strategy as a utility of how we're going to generate that volume and all the sudden set of wells we may shift back to expanding surface water plants both with and with that is frankly would be my recommendation if we could get it now this gets into a subject that's come up here before members including you know mr carroll's pointed out that mr victory know that maybe it would be a good idea to move from eighty twenty surface water to groundwater to reverse that perhaps that that was based on the old situation and maybe if there is more surface water available we want to go to ninety ten surface water that gets into our little purple yellow and especially back to my favorite issue how we going to pay for what because the surface water expansion would be less expensive but if from a social values down point the council from a policy standpoint says look we want to tap this grey area untapped groundwater and we're going to leave surface water to other people we can do that it was be more expensive it's this key policy issue from the council which goes back to rates and fees and how we're funding the water utility that is probably going to drive that if the council feels that look if they see us is going to use less let's use that at a lower cost but if the council says that should all go back into streams we'll develop groundwater a higher cost those are two completely different directions and part of these discussions we're trying to find out does the council support one or the other knowing that there's going to be significant cost difference and that policy these public meetings we're trying to remember and chaired by so was our public meeting last night it's difficult to get people to take a side on this and yet to come up with a detailed plan we're going to have to take aside any until we can get about how the council feels about this would really help us to in the knows oh meaning that of course water as the source is a public trust and nobody treat me owns it in an office it can't be it sold commodity what have you but of course the transmission of that public trust is where now you can be charged you know the cost so i guess in relation to the waters that could be freed up the surface waters with c n n s are you saying the enemy now almost sounds like forward if we're going to look at it as the law states we ought to look at it that there's been a number of articles in the paper and without getting into our legal situation i can just quote from what was said by people in the paper for the last couple weeks announcement happen to be the day that the hearings officer sent his findings of fact in conclusions of law to the water commission just by coincidence according to water commission staff they were quoted in the mouth it was just in the maui news that process is a legal process that the ruling that the commission's going to make has to be based on the evidence they collected during that process not evidence that was in the newspaper after that so this  issue that announcement was not evidence in the april of march and april i think it's when they were in march and april hearings so that process keeps going along now at some point in the future something else will have to happen but right now there is no mechanism for us to just say well look i had this press release you know give us more water there will be mechanisms legal mechanisms for that later that will be a part of but just because we know what's going to happen doesn't change the contested case protocol we're part of it we're aware of this and we're working with our attorneys to modify our strategy based on this new information but there is no redo on the evidence just because things have changed since then so i'm sure you'll hear more about there's some things obviously things are changing everyone knows that but we're going to work through the legal processes are very good chere i got the brunt of my questions answered so very much thank you m development plan and where is it hasn't it happened and of course there was an attempt today to try to help the whole complicated this isn't the process that's ahead of us in order for us to have something that is more relevant to what would dealing with right now you like mr taylor said a month ago he would have looked at everything differently actually i think less than that whenever we've heard above this thing it kind of change all of our feelings about a lot of things and we really don't know because we don't have the answers a lot of this will be you know ferret it out in months to come in with legal processes in all of that but anyway we need to get a word used in development claim going on the best information we have so maybe you can give us an idea of timeline here if you have any clue as to what you know what's ahead yes thank you i think our plan was really to have a draft to this body and in june of this year until just later this year thank you very much to give me hope you know i'm going to go to the end of this year and i would sit they'd like to see this completed by then and things will clear you know right now we're i think the whole we're all it's good to have something that is not as dated as what we have this we need guidelines particularly as we go ahead with the eyepiece and you know when you look at that chart which for me is the key to the whole thing you know water is available we can probably figure out how to get some of it and i'm hoping that the commission will be sympathetic and everybody will understand that we need to kind of share the water take care of what we need to take care of but it's going to take is the and it's going to take money it's going to take commitment and money and we seem to have difficulty in deciding when it comes to money who pays and once they pay and how much do we want to plan for and until we do that we never never going to solve our water problem we can have all the water in the world but until we can get it where we need it it's just it's just that it's a chart but we've got to figure out how to make it work for us you know i am still concerned because this problem is so old and it's been around so long and i hear mr victory in his first frustration you know he's been working in this so much longer than i have and i know that he has tried his best but you know every time we bring a policy decision before an elected body everybody has a real hard time trying to decide how much and who pays and so you know it's hard to move a plan forward but anyway i just wanted to comment on that mr victory you know i think i can see you're dying to say  already spoken with the deputy of the state water commission and let's put it this way everything that has been completed to this point his basic answer to me is mike just rode out the window because you're starting over again and that's wh they're going to end up it's going to be a start over again even the reports seem to put this much water back in because of the change in a cns his approach and what type of egg they will be doing whatever it may be the state see where he's going to change everything they're going to start all over again and i think mr taylor knows that that's what's coming that's really the end result of this decision they'll use parts of what they have but th changing a lot of it because this is an opportunity to really look forward to our future when it comes to water i disagree detail and i agree mr carroll that we still need wells because wells are consistent they don't dry up they don't have dry periods like surface water however considering how much water comes into the central plain from the small we the probability of  but it's all changed it's all change i mean in the sense of what water me be available right now the dealer yeah if i could comment on that i'd agree with almost almost everything makes the market debate on the little tiny things i don't know but he's right about the issues in front of the commission if you look at the findings of fact and conclusions of law from the hearings officer and you look at what the commission is is tasked to do under state  they took evidence from information cns and from all kinds of stream users and the hearings officer and to compare that evidence to state law with priorities in the state water code in the constitution and if you look at the evidence by cns it is sugar sugar uses x amount of gallons per acre sugar generates y amount of jobs sugar contributes this to the economy etc etc so that body of evidence that was in this case was about growing thirty six thousand acres of sugar it was not there was no evidence about growing thirty six thousand acres of something else so there was this determination made about this eighteen million gallons the hearings officer recommended returning to the streams was on our use sugars use of other uses and the stream now there's going to be a new determination some time about whatever the new plan is versus these other uses which whatever it is won't be sugar a different amount of water use a different economic impact it's at or etc so i think we're all in agreement that there's going to have to be a new evidentiary proceeding of some sort before a final decision is made the big questions are going to be what is going to happen in the interim before that's worked out it does the water stay in the ditch till then does it go back in the stream those are some of the unknowns but this isn't going to be wrapped up by the end of the year and so  i think one thing everyone should be ready for is as promised we will do our best to get this draft in the timeframe she talked about but we're going to finish a lot of these development plan without having great detail and of what's happening to that orange p and unlike the why of decision ottawa who that's a very small piece compared to the board of water supply tolerance which it would be the why holy was a small piece of it here we have the uncertainty with the single biggest piece of the pod and that is what makes this so challenging and we recognize you know mr guzman's concerns expressed last time that you know the public needs a plan and we agree and we will try to get something i just hope the public will understand we want to get a plan that's useful and getting a plan al that's outdated while it's coming out of the printer has probably confusing things more and that's a struggle we've had if you look at the line i want to use development plan within a year i think of the commission adopting that the commission not supporting a you know a thirty year special use permit for that well now it's gone again these plans take at least a few years to put together and the data changes overnight and i think that's the struggle we have is how to get something complete to get all this public input when the facts on the ground are changing faster than we can right so i don't have a great solution we're going to get something on the timeline eva talked about it is going to have a lot of what if that's been contested has gone back and forth because every time with this season has been made the other side challenges and it's been an ongoing litigation for what fifteen years twenty years so that you know so us is really not a good place to start because it is being contested by both sides each time the decision was made one way or the other it went right back to court because the other in the other the other side intervened and challenged the decision so that being said ma of all giving us enough water like we were promised years ago are quoting to the agreement me to a fully use come only so that we can produce nine million plus gallons i think that's the capacity for i'm not  up in cool up helps us to make sure we have some diversification in that area the other area we had been working on for a lot of years was be a hole and also the idea of the dual line but yesterday or the day before yesterday when mr white and i were at the senate hearing when the mirror the senate and house joint hearing where the meirs came in made their presentation this fact was brought up that most of the farmers now do veges vegetation or any type of vegetation for which water has to be dispersed number one all their workers can no longer used water to wash hands it's got to be potable water all the plants invoice i mean it can be used for other areas but where it's been set up to google and to help us really is not going to help us and that if i'm correct was the diversion of untreated water right to the system to feed heard people start saying leafy vegetables have to be grown with pot of water something didn't sound right because i mean you think about the central california valley there's no way that could all be replaced with horrible water and so my understanding it that the correction you know at the meeting and mr white was there that was the indication they had given us as far as food safety was concerned again this was coming from a couple of senators in a while you know and they're concerned how that affects agriculture here in ma we and my county you know they are keenly aware of what we're going through so they're they're very anxious to help us in any way they can and still do but they don't want to throw money against into something that may not be feasible and not workable for us but any out and finally i'll say this with all of these dynamics changing consistently now and we have to see what eighteen as plan comes up planned but diversified  caddo i had people already coming in from all the different sectors telling me about what they need for cattle what the grass the shade and all these other issues that going to be if if we were going to ranching in the central area a another strong possibility but all that being said and done if that was all to start today which would not it's not happening we're not going to have any productive we'd have a couple takes five plus years to get any productive reading mangles or not much much quicker and other crops are not like tomorrow now hemp can and has been proven in a while to grow more expensive more quickly however even that takes you know how much can we grow and how much can we use and are we equipped to start putting that hemp into building equipment building material another so there's all these dynamics that are out there so i want the public to understand it i know the mayor and we've talked in others there you know we're looking  at many many options or many of us in this room have popped in look didn't options with the public they got to be patient because we've got to figure out which is the best approach you know and if you look at all the other islands when they shut down the plantations they went home while greasy in different areas to try to keep these people working and trying to put the agricultural crops in these areas and most of them feel miserable and that's something i would have to agree with the mayor it did feel maybe we can learn from that so that we don't feel miserably and do it the right way and hopefully the public can be a part of this like you did on a vote that you know we need to get the public sympathy but there is a lot to be done and it's a lot of work and i'll finally see dismantle i greet you we better start putting our money where our mouth is already it's never going to work unless we put our money where our mouth is to put into the infrastructure to put in the pumping system to put in all the other issues that we seem to always kind of push off to the weak side and public there is no free lunch you're going to have to pay for it so if you want water to have to pay for it and we have some of the cheapies rates in the entire nation right here in ma we can't do so we're going to have to look at all of these dynamics you need that maybe it's not politically correct but again facts have to be put on a table and everybody has to water water supply in two thousand and two and if anything else it's only gotten worse but with much happening around us right now there's a big light at the end of the tunnel i see that big light let's  them time to get their plant together let's help them and let's put our money where our mouth is and that's start putting the infrastructure so that we can provide water to all the people in maui county that want to leave work and reach their families  as private public systems is that the same as the private systems in the blue piece of pie on the earlier chart that you're just looking at this is  projections population base projections based on consumption all existing consumption of them in a simple and private systems so that does not include ag at all that is ag for them and is suppo system or in the private systems but in terms of non potable really sugar is not included in that i'm just wondering the pie chart showed the that the private water systems actually were pumping significantly more than department of water supply and groundwater don't seem to be reflected here because the private systems were larger than the large pumping groundwater policies page this  outside growth boundaries is that seven point four million gallons what is projected to be added to current usage that would be the total usage if all approx double and then the one point six five four marlin plan projected demand is on top of the would be on top that would be on top it did list plus of course some of that this reflected within the go down days but as you can see almost all of them are outside right ok i'm not i'm not so sure that's on top of the maui i don't plan independently of the water this said here's the population growth of country that we expect i think that one point six five tie is just imagine if there was no water list and we would just develop as pretty now either you could expect you know addition of growth of one point six five million gallons more to the heat but if we look at the list on and got everybody who's on the list the water they wanted that would be seven point four so whether or not you the entire plan and there's a lot of moving parts as my colleagues have mentioned and i think the public should understand that this is a plan that does take quite quite some time i am glad to hear about the you know that it can be done by drafting at her at least having something presented by the end of this year asshole for being one of my questions is that in drafting the plan do you go by sections is there a possibility to complete sections of the plan and then have that presented to the council like for instance i see that the sectors are divided up piers central and it goes all the way down to his or are you going to complete the entire plan and present it in its entirety and our strategy is to complete all dr first sectors in theory we could complete some individuals but there really are almost all int related because of transport from of one resource into another hydraulic unit so i think that's what the commission would like to see and that was one of the problems with the original plan that was passed by council but rejected by the  public because that's the end result that you're looking at that you're looking for them also at the same time getting policy guidance from from this body and others special groups so that we have so that both the public and start a plan you have an outline yes ok so i mean they'll be created if we could you know because it'll you know look at it just to see that you know it's fine to me at least we have something to say your constituents call and say you know who are you guys doing you know and we can look at and say well look there were they're working on a plan and it involves in we can read it down and it's just something that we could try to educate the public in this is these are the certain areas that we're still studying to communicate better to the to the community based off what we learn and what is presented to us but that would be helpful chair when we had the time may at we did a few presentations to different bod groups over this last year cup and twenty fourteen too so those are bailable on that department's website and as we move through the public process i would definitely add the outline to that but you know some of the minutes are notes for meetings are some is already available and you know we've had all these people complaining about well where is the plan and we wanted it we want to know you're not doing anything we don't have a plan we hear about it but i would be really happy that we were able to do this today because i think the public as well as ourselves understand how complicated this is you know the more i get into this what a committee and the more i realize how difficult the issues are and you think you understand but they when you sit yeah experts  people that have dead or in this district here begin to realize how complicated it is and there are so many things that we all have to know about in i agree that if we're going to have a plan it should be as useful as we can get otherwise what's the point you know you spend all that time all the money of a document that you can't use that if we have to wait a little while to get some of these huge questions they're going to affect this plan and then we just got to wait but in the meantime we need to keep talking because there are policy issues that will not eventually go in the plan that we can decide and those policy issues are like watching we  do but big policy issues that are issues we can be working on so that when the plan is ready we're ready and that's where i would like to take this and you know i really want to commend the department you know  easy to make these decisions also a lot of them are not in our control you know we have no control over what the commission on water resource management is going to do we also have to deal with public trust issues and legal issues and we don't know what happens when we go to court being court for years and years and years to get any kind of decisions so what i want to do is i want to keep this on the radar screen i will keep checking  with the staff in the department to make sure that you know things are happening i work very closely and well with them i really appreciate the water department staff i've gotten to know them so much better over the last year and a half and you know even though and and the department for pursuing this so i mean if we just take a look at the title water use and development and we're going through our plan and what have you we have it all slated downward binaries are too much that don't have an abscess of some sort or water somewhere at some time you know with build out and everything in the future so i think this plan can be drawn out and put out there is really for  factors that are you know undetermined right now this can move forward and a thing just happened we do you know there's a project in la you know that's moving forward but it hasn't water still moving forward there's a plan in is all about and there is a whole eight hours and one person was all about water and got to see director pierce in there and got to pick his brain not much but you know and it was interesting but you know for you know precedent setting and things of that nature so i just want to think chair for letting me go there and then understanding that narrowing it down to us as a municipality and our water issues and how we you know what our management and quickly on is for the water and i believe we are doing a good job and let me tell you council we are we are prized we're looked at as shining examples especially in our watershed management protection because we all know you know that water is life so i just want to see her version you know to all of us collectively as you see you work in collaboration with department so thank you for your efforts alongside and bringing that to us to make our decisions in educated manner thank you very much ms cochran you know i would strongly encourage any of the members to attend that when they step in are i had the opportunity to couple years ago and i was painfully ignorant about some of the native  and issues and i really appreciated being there for them and listening to the law and the experts and all the lawyers that come in and all that happens once a year it's free and it's just getting to a while to attend but it's seminar on the water or actually how i know all that you know really when you come down to it but i also like to express thanks for bringing this forward you know earlier we heard it took they were surface water so in this plan and i think it's be interesting to to to have for us at least anyway for me water resource development where you're going to have to expend you know infrastructure or development of water resources and i know we're waiting for back our community plan to to come in full circle however i believe too that that's where community wants to know also at least i know from my community where will we and and recognising that but i should like to know what involves the department for the integration you know what kind of involvement that comes out of it but this is  a good start you know the chair keeps saying that she's just been on this just a short bit but quite a bit as come before us and i appreciate it thank you thank you very much m pelham along the lines of involving the public trust folks i had the opportunity to attend a state calder's meeting last night and it's people that are very you would recognize all of their names as people that are very involved in the water and water development and and the people from over there along with their attorney and so it's important because they're a big piece of it and we have to keep that in mind when we talk about it because we have to recognize that obligation and those rights and that level when we make decisions so i was very happy to see them at the table and very actively being a part of it also there were folks so you know we're all well represented the native land rights as well as everybody else so it's a well rounded group and i'm really excited when we get to the public meeting again what we're going to hear and see but i feel going to thank the department i know they were under a lot of stress to try to get stuff today and it's hard to present a plan when you don't have all the information that you know we all want to know what's going to happen when they don't know so they can't tell us so they're doing the best they can but i want to thank them for you know humans effort you did a great job and i think we have as much information as is available but we're going to stay on this we're going to not close to the we're going to i'm going to ask you to defer because i think we wan so our next meeting of this committee will be on february seventeenth i particularly want you and the public to know that that's the reason why we will be meeting on the third big it will be in conflict with  is the american waterworks system and that's a very important and there are national people you know this problem is not that we have is not unique to come team we have national weather problems as we've been reading the papers we've been seeing how bad it is in some states and think that we're not there we have problems but they have worse problems than what we have and we don't want them here so it's good to be part of what's happening nationally so any more questions or comments on th joe thank you very much again for bring you forward you know in the six years as much as chair you know i had to bring in other issues like wells and other issues that had to be taken care of and now we can move into the areas that really to where we need to google and again dynamic shift change drastically from last year two weeks ago to today and will continue to evolve i think the public has to understand and i'm going to close it in this manner we can do a lot of things that we want to do we can do what they want to do but it takes money and i think mister taylor has done a yeoman's job trying to present that to the public and to us through the years and i think that's something that we need to connect all the other issues are dear and we can deal with them once we can take care of the issue of how do we get the water from b two b c and like you said x y z that and also this chart here and i want people to look at this chart to see that this is what we anticipate we have available for usage in this county all in my id and i should see right now a part of it soul but look at the untapped portion which is a ball thirty five forty percent on tap not used not being utilized in any way shape or form which is really growing water which has said many times is very expensive to get to excess because at the pump bridge drilling and then pumping it up but it's there in the future it's there to be used if needed but we have enough available that can be in great shape for centuries to come and i see centuries to come just getting the infrastructure completed and i think mr taylor and the department has done very well in explaining that to understand this non voting members we have all members of every committee that we have here in the council it's just that some many committees are nine member committees and some are seven member committees which means that other members i welcome to do and they're members but they cannot vote and so we are many times we use that time to prepare for other meetings and meet with constituents or we may watch it will more watson t v or whatever sometimes we can we come in sit and important that we try to learn as much as we can one of the things i took away from the stick called was meeting that night was a suggestion and a very bold statement by one of the native hawaiian members who was there and he says we really have a need for education we have to educate the community so we understand all of the issues and conservation and the rights and all of these things that play into what are decisions and i agree and so we've been trying very hard in this committe this year to present a lot of educational pieces and not might not be as exciting as when we were here debating whether to charge ten cents more or not they are very important members here and say well they're not there but they don't understand they may not be a member of the committee a voting member and they are doing other things but i think it's important that public understand how we meet so i think that's it i'd like to thank the staff who work very hard and particularly the men thank you very much and thank you for providing us with the legal concept thank god we didn't need her today we probably will soon so without further vitamins on the agenda the chair without