good morning everyone the legislative hearing by the subcommittee on insular affairs oceans and wildlife will come to order today we will hear testimony concerning h r seven hundred seventy one the chesapeake bay science education system enhanced an act of two thousand and nine a char ten fifty three the chesapeake bay accountability and recovery act of two thousand and nine and h r nine o five the thunder national marine century wary and underwater preserve boundary modification act under committee rules for g the chairwoman and the ranking minority member will make opening statements the chesapeake bay is our nation's largest estuary it provided a safe haven for some of our nation's first settlers to survive into thrive in what is now maryland virginia and the district of columbia although since degraded by a swelling human population the baby remains vital and continues to provide food jobs and opportunities for outdoor recreation for millions of people and a habitat for over three thousand six hundred plant and animal species in recognition of its degraded condition the chesapeake bay in one thousand nine hundred three became the first estuary targeted by congress for restoration and protection at that time the chesapeake bay program was formed as a regional partnership between the federal government the states that fall within the chesapeake bay watershed and the district of columbia later in  congress authorized within the national oceanic and atmospheric administration a chesapeake bay office to formally acknowledge no was important contributions in our efforts to restore the baby no chesapeake bay office has evolved and develop it's programs over the years to meet the needs of restoring the base environment and evolution continues today our call colleague from maryland congressm sarbanes introduced h r seventeen seventy one to reauthorize no was just a p bass office this non controversial legislation recognizes and supports no was important role in current and planned restoration efforts on a broader scale h r ten fifty three a bill introduced by congressman whitman would increase coordination and accountability by requiring a crosscut budget and adaptive management for all restoration activities in the bay now both bills are important in furthering our ongoing effort to enhance and recover the resources of the bay we will also hear today or read here today legislation that has been reintroduced in the one hundred eleventh congress by congressman bands to pack to expand the thunder bay national marine center where he located in lake huron the thunder bay center where he is the only century in the great lakes and it currently protects a collection of one hundred nationally significant shipwrecks off the north east coast of michigan's lower peninsula the area and mediately surrounding the century contains an equal number of historic vessels h r nine o five would expand the boundaries of the century to encompass and preserve these important cultural resources at this time i'd like to ask  mr sarbanes a full member a member of the full committee be allowed to sit on the diocese and participate in the hearings hearing no objection so and i would now like to ask for unanimous consent to enter into the record a statement in support of h r nine o five submitted by the bill sponsor congressman bart stupak and several additional letters in support of the legislation by stakeholders in the state of michigan and hearing no objection so ordered i now recognize mr whitman who is the ranking member this morning ranking republican member of the subcommittee for any statement that he may have mr whitman chairwoman i really want to thank you for your leadership and all of your efforts here on the committee and thank you today for holding this hearing to address two bills impacting the chesapeake bay and thunder bay national marine sanctuary today we will hear testimony on hundred seventy one the chesapeake bay science education and ecosystem enhanced by an act of two thousand and nine h r ten fifty three the chesapeake bay accountability and recovery act of two thousand and nine and h r nine o five the thunder bay national marine sanctuary and underwater preserve boundary modification act and i'm honored to represent virginia's first congressional district and for my district and others throughout the bay watershed improving the health of the chesapeake bay is a priority and one that is a priority for any constituent i believe that lives in the bay watershed i do believe that there's a sense of frustration in the chesapeake bay watershed about the progress we've made to restore the bay and yes there have been successes we don't want to end it in any way discount that however i believe that we have challenges ahead and lots of crop progress to be made and with all of our federal state local and private partners i believe that we have more to accomplish and more to do to involve those stakeholders to enjoy future successes h r ten fifty three the chesapeake bay accountability and recovery act would implemented strengthen management techniques like crosscut budgeting and adaptive management to ensure that we're getting more bang for our buck and then we continue to make progress in bay restoration efforts both techniques have and in the past and other applications have insured successes in water quality and natural resource improvement efforts and i truly believe that these techniques will be successful here in the chesapeake bay both techniques will ensure that we're coordinating how restoration dollars are spent in making sure that everyone understands how individual projects fit into the bigger picture that's why we're not duplicating efforts and we should be avoiding duplicating efforts we want to make sure we are spending money in the right places and making sure that we have that continual feedback loop to understand what we're spending in the success of those efforts h r ten fifty three would require o m b in coordination with state and federal agencies involved in the bay restoration effort to report to congress on the status of these activities this legislation  also require e p a to develop and implement an adaptive management plan for the chesapeake bay restoration activities adaptive management as many of you know relies on rigorous scientific monitoring testing and evaluating and the flexibility to modify management policies and strategies based on changing conditions crosscut budgeting and adaptive management should be key components for the complex restoration activities in the chesapeake bay and they've shown to be successful in other complex restoration activities chairwoman i'm also pleased to support h r seventeen seventy one the chesapeake bay science education and ecosystem enhanced by an act of two thousand and nine introduced by mr sarbanes from maryland i want to thank him for his leadership on bay restoration he has done a tremendous job and i've been privileged to be a co sponsor on several bills that he has put in and he truly is a leader in bay restoration efforts in this effort to make sure that the no what chesapeake bay office continues  leadership role in enhancing our bay restoration efforts is truly the direction that we need to be going in so i want to thank mr sarbanes for his efforts and again thank you for your leadership in holding this hearing today and i look forward to continuing to work with you and other members of the committee to restore the just i thank the gentleman from virginia the ranking member mr whitman for his opening statements and again for the panel i'd like again just to recognize the two  members of congress who are seated here with us for the hearing mr pratt avail from maryland and mr sarbanes from maryland and now at this time i'd like to introduce the witnesses on the panel they include mr payton robertson the director of council as we begin ladies and gentleman i would note for all the witnesses that the red timing light on the table will indicate when five minutes have passed and your time has concluded we would appreciate your cooperation in complying with these limits be assured that your full written statement will be entered into the record and at this point i would like to now recognize mr peyton robertson so please begin with your testimony good morning  fifty three the chesapeake bay accountability and recovery act of two thousand and nine and h r nine o five the thunder bay national ring sanctuary and underwater preserve boundary modification act as members of the subcommittee now and you stated the chesapeake bay is north america's largest  estuary it's a biologically diverse ecosystem that faces many environmental challenges including the impacts of climate change degraded water quality over harvesting of fisheries and habitat destruction congress established the no chesapeake bay office through the no authorization act hundred two and the office was most recently reauthorized in two thousand and two we've integrated noah's cross section of capabilities to serve the needs of the bay region we provide state of the art science technical assistance as well as outreach and education activities to help restore the ba knows chesapeake bay offices headquartered in annapolis maryland were koch located with the chesapeake bay program and we also have offices in oxford maryland and gloucester point in norfolk virginia president obama recently issued the chesapeake bay protection and restoration executive order which calls for greater a greater federal role and accountability for bay protection and restoration the executive orders stablished a federal leadership committee that is responsible for developing a coordinated federal strategy to restore the chesapeake bay no a participant in the committee on behalf of the department of commerce and its co leading the development of reports on climate living resources and habitat and monitoring in decision support today i'd like to briefly outline the three primary functions of my office ecosystem science coastal living resources management and environmental literacy knows ecosystem science capabilities respond to emerging needs for collective environmental data in real time issues such as harmful algal blooms require the use of new technologies for early detection and response no i use a variety of scientific tools to describe  and congressman whitman's district and located at the mouth of the rappahannock river down in virginia where the current air temperature is seventy five point nine degrees the wind speed is seventeen point three knots and the wave height is about two point two feet anyone can get such information any time by dialing one eight seven seven buoy bay or going online to buoy bay dot org knows efforts in coastal and living resources provides provide sound science based polish the advice and technical assistance decision makers we support ecosystem based approaches to management for the protection and restoration of oysters striped bass menhaden blue crabs and their habitats recently no one sponsored research that provided the basis for evaluating the risk of a proposed introduction of the asian oyster into chesapeake bay no supports environmental literacy through educational programs designed to increase awareness build knowledge and facilitate that as a citizen involvement in stewardship of the bay the bay watershed education and training or be wet grant program has directly reached approximately eighteen thousand teachers and  provide specific authority for no to continue or several activities including conducting integrated coastal observations creating a chesapeake bay watershed education and training program and establishing a chesapeake bay coastal and living resources management and habitat program no supports hundred seventy one and look forward to working with the committee on this bill regarding h r ten fifty three no supports the coordinated and efficient use of federal dollars for the restoration of the chesapeake bay as envisioned by this bill as i mentioned earlier the president's recent executive order requires a coordinated federal strategy to protect and restore the bay the admin and the administration believes this strategy which will be released for public review later this year and its associated annual action plan effectively meet the objectives of the bill finally i'll briefly comment on h r nine o five the thunder bay national marine sanctuary an underwater preserve boundary modification act which would expand the sanctuary boundary to approximate approximately nine times its current size and provide important protection for more than  hundred additional shipwrecks that rests within the new proposed boundary the sanctuary advisory council affected local governments and state agencies and the vast majority of public comments we've received are all in favor favor of boundary expansion for thunderball no agrees with the underlying purpose of h r nine o five thank you very much for the opportunity provide this testimony on these bills and we look forward to working with further working with the committee on them thank you i thank the gentleman for his statement before the committee and i thank you mr robertson for the chesapeake bay office's work in protecting and managing the bay i'd also before we proceed with miss wants and like to introduce the ranking member mr henry brown who has joined us for this hearing this once and it is a pleasure to welcome you before the subcommittee and you are now recognized to testify for five minutes  and members of the committee for this opportunity to testify on both house bill one seven seven one and house bill ten fifty three my name is and swanson i serve as the executive director of the chesapeake bay commission at the outset i want to commend both representative john sarbanes and rob whitman for their leadership in sponsoring these important measures to address restoration of the chesapeake bay i must also use a moment of my time to say it's such a pleasure to be with someone from guam because my father was a physician on guam for two years and it formed much of my childhood stories that being said i should tell you about the chesapeake bay commission which is a tri state legislative assembly established in one thousand nine hundred eighty to coordinate a related policy across state lines thus the commission comes from a general assembly perspective from those three states where we work as a liaison as well with the federal with the u s congress we believe that restoring the nation's largest estuary is very much a shared responsibility not just that of the state and not just the local governments or the private sector but also of the federal government and we are enormously appreciative of the level of support that the federal government and this congress has offered us to date and want to encourage you to obviously continue that being said we're here to tell you that noah's has been a key federal partner we worked very hard in one nine hundred ninety two to get the no a big program established and we firmly believe that from that day forward and has only been a good decision and never anything less as a federal partner they really do bring the expertise of fisheries monitoring environmentalist literacy to the table that would other with the void in our clean efforts and so for that reason we are here to tell you very emphatically that the no a big program office is extremely important to us let me give you a few examples chesapeake bay commission chaired a eight year long effort to establish blue crab targets and thresholds this is a way that you actually manage your fishery instead of based on tweel limits you base it on actual biological needs so that the species can reproduce itself is very rare in this country we could not have established those targets and thresholds without the daily expertise that was brought to us by the new no abate program office and they were willing every step of the way to work with us even though we by nature are a political organization so we really brought science and policy together to work peyton has gone over a number of other programs that they do but certainly the twenty eight million dollars in grants since two thousand and one to maryland and virginia to restore the native or store or the be wet these are the education and training programs where more than three million annually goes to our our teachers and more i'm only our students one hundred  fifty thousand students have benefited from this program and you've heard about the buoys which i should say above and beyond water quality they are critical to rescue missions and so it really does bring the cultural elements of the bay into play the legislation is critical for a number of reasons peyton has mentioned some of them i think first of all the monitoring capabilities are essential the education programs through again they absolutely cannot be missed the third is that the watermen and the aco culture support because the fisheries are heading towards agriculture globally nationally and locally and the chesapeake bay is note se and finally it will really help to trigger no is a valuation of resource needs in my last minute i'd like to really focus on ten fifty three ten fifty three is also an extremely important  bottom line we must have accountability and we must have adaptive management those are things that are essential to any restoration effort and while we may still not reach our goals i'm also i'm sorry or proud to tell you that the chesapeake bay restoration is among the finest globally that being said we're not there yet and so adaptive management and accountability are both critical parts of that there is one piece of the legislation i would suggest that you add and that has to do with establishing an independent evaluator an independent evaluator housed in the bay program could have full access to state and federal data it could respond to the baby program leadership needs but also conduct independent of truly independent evaluations on needs that they see to fill gaps that kind of constant pressure that constant oversight you know well through the oh and the ind the inspector general's program needs to only the congress can do something like that at the state level we would never be able to establish an independent evaluator so for that reason that's what i would say in conclusion for three it's an excellent piece of legislation well worth it they both are and it's really if you don't move on either one of them we are a weaker restoration efforts so i hope that you on behalf of the commission consider our advice and act favorably thank you very much i miss once and for your years of service in protecting and restoring the chesapeake bay and also for sharing with us your memories of your right and finally mr stevens croll is recognized to testify for four five minutes so please begin mr marty madam chair and members of the committee my name is steve kroll i'm a fifty eight year resident of rogers city michigan a retired high school math teacher and chair of the thunder bay advisory council i've owned and operated a dive shop in charter business in press kill county for thirty six years thank you for the opportunity to testify on  o five the thunder bay national marine sanctuary underwater preserve boundary modification act i'm here today to support h r nine o five because it would add protection to some of the nation's best preserved shipwrecks and expand successful sanctuary programs to other communities in northeast michigan communities along the coast of press kill al piano and al corner counties are maritime oriented and ready to recapture preserve and protect their maritime heritage their letters of support are included in your information packets i've been diving area shipwrecks for forty three years and can testify that they are the best preserved shipwrecks in the world and there are many more to be found i brought photos of two of these shipwrecks the f t barney which is right here and the florida which will show you in a minute the die diving on the f t barney one hundred thirty foot schooner that rogers city in eighteen sixty eight you would find a ship that looks ready to sail a ship's wheel one mast ill standing anchors rigging dishes running lights and compass are all there to see intact and in addition to containing all of ship's artifacts it's loaded with a cargo called general stores items that serve the every day to day needs of the people at that time both of these wrecks are now outside of the current solve and alyssum and that article is also in your packet it's very important that you understand that originally i was against establishment of the sanctuary i believe having the federal government determine what we should do with our resources would lead to too many restrictions this attitude was shared by many citizens and expressed that public hearings prior to the designation as a result the proposed size of the sanctuary was greatly reduced i now see that was unfortunate sense of sanctuary has proven itself as a trusted partner not just with the state of michigan but also with the local communities the sanctuary program should serve as a model for other government programs public input is received by no with the attitude that they can learn reacting roll from it i've been involved in the process and i can assure you that it's real and working what will an expanded thunder bay national marine sanctuary mean to northeast michigan i believe that an expanded sanctuary w provide increased protection for shipwrecks in press kale and alcoa counties and provide greater opportunities for education research long term monitoring and law enforcement i personally support sanctuary boundary expansion because i believe it will provide a vehicle for education yes we need to protect the wrecks but it's not just about them it's about our past present and most importantly our future the sanctuary has programs and opportunities for individuals of all ages levels to utilize and enhance their educational skills i've seen this firsthand as a judge for the international remotely operated vehicle building competition which inspires students to pursue careers in math science marine technology and archaeology whether it's a young person learning to map a shipwreck a graduate student researching ship building or a family building a boat together it's about passing on the values we preserve volunteer participation is a testament to community support for the sanctuary the sanctuary has over one hundred volunteers whose talents and expertise are utilized daily in the operation of the sanctuary i'm one of those volunteers because i believe in the sanctuaries mission i strongly urge you to pass our h r nine o five because i strongly believe sanctuaries benefit not just northeast michigan but the entire united states thank you again for this opportunity to testify before the committee and i'll be glad to return and answer any questions you may have i also invite you to visit and experience the maritime coast of northeast michigan thank you thank you very much mr croll for your outstanding lead ship on the essential air advisory consul for the thunder bay marine sanctuary and for your passionate interest in protecting and conserving the maritime history of the great lakes i will now recognize members for any questions they may wish to ask alternating between the majority and the minority and allowing five minutes for each member and we will have a second round if it is required are a number of things that are particularly valuable valuable and in particular as in mentioned in her testimony the ability to support aqua culture efforts something that's happening nationally internationally but something that we previously haven't been authorized to do should be helpful as we transition out of the way that we serve fisheries been done as well as other fisheries so there's authority there for fin fish as well i think the authority for habitat characterization something that we've been piloting but is really critical to understand exactly where to do waste a restoration is also going to be very critical and i just end by saying that they want to shoot education training program which you've heard about we've been executing for a number of years but having the authority to do that will support objectives like congressman sarbanes no child left inside legislation so we've got the ability to really get out there and still stewardship in the next generation thank you like to welcome mr cayley subline representing the northern marianas islands just entered a member of our i have another question for you mr robertson what do you mean when you use the term environmental literacy is there a common definition for this i'm not an environmental educator myself that the choices we make is as residents of the bay water should have an impact so ultimately environmental literacy of the population will result in people making better choices that are more protective perhaps it would be more factual is that into more detail about noways role in the president's new executive order yes thank you for that question we're very busy because the executive order gives us some pretty short timelines and from its signing we have one hundred twenty eight hundred twenty days to produce seven major reports no as a co leader on three of those reports that will include recommendations on the subject of climate change on living resources and habitat research and restoration activities as well as monitoring and decision support so our partners in that effort on those reports for climate it's the us geological survey for the habitat living resources report it's the u s fish and wildlife service and for monitoring and decision support the u s geological survey you think then that you will be able to meet the outside of the present sanctuary are not afforded equal protection because the united states government i e the coast guard does not have authority to enforce any of those regulations and by expanding the sanctuary we can have the coast guard cooperating collaborate on enforcement tactics for this larger area and these other shipwrecks so currently right now if the coast guard were to stop a group of say divers that might potentially be doing something adverse to a wreck which is outside of the sanctuary they really can't do much more than detain him and call state government agencies to the scene  intention on behalf of the century in any way to restrict any kind of diving all divers have the right and access to all the sites we do try to provide morning systems on key racks and if there aren't any kind of a morning system on a record divers are free to you know make access to that wreck or the any state or federal laws that protect the integrity of the of the ships to be sure that none of the merchandise was moved all over the state currently protects bottom lands of the state which includes very hard at educating the general public through signage through education programs that these are important maritime heritage resources that need to be preserved and you know you have things of the past before laws where it was legal to take things off for x and that and that attitude has changed over the years but it's certainly not as well recognized as maybe it should be and you know there's efforts that we need to make to make sure that these things stick around expanding the sanctuary boundaries is there any greater restrictions say on commercial fishing or recreational fishing or just recreational boating or or the commercial shipping there there is no parameters in our management plan to regulate any of those activities in fact a lot of what you brought up in terms of fishing is actually under state control and and in no way does a sanctuary have any authority over those activities that you mentioned when this question how much will this boundary just increased demand because for the for the national marine sanctuary program or the other to speed it goes like this is important so and so the added because of this boundary increase to be honest with you  i don't have knowledge of exactly what it might cost i think what we're doing as a sanctuary is to prioritize the monies we do have to coordinate efforts of state federal and local entities to protect these racks we think we can prioritize some of our current things and as other monies are expanded and i are not yet needed for other things we can just prioritize what we want to do and my bottom line is if this effort is made that we can have with us the ability to work towards funding and and we have to have some places to go with this obviously  and you know it's it's a goal of the sanctuary in the sanctuary advisory council that we will just have to prioritize what we're doing and to work with the entities and make the best of it it's more important that we make this effort and at least try to preserve these as best we can and do the best we can with the funds we have to potential cost of additional research vessels i understand the sanctuary program has secured a surplus fifty foot research vessel that would be modified with existing funding so therefore there would be additional costs associated with that vessel and what you think two million even working well so let's keep going with them or you can get really excited about it because it represents looking back recognizing that things are working seeing the opportunities to strengthen them and then kind of relaunching the initiative and i think that's exactly what we're doing today today with h r seven hundred seventy one it was a privilege for me to be able to introduce that bill i also want to acknowledge congressman and efforts broadly with respect to the chesapeake bay but also in particular with respect to h r ten fifty three which i was pleased to be able to to co sponsor these are both critical in terms of the bay restoration efforts and th folks who spoke about the chesapeake bay after paying robinson and swanson are part of a really vast network of people that make the chesapeake bay in many respects their number one professional priority as well as i would imagine personal priority because i know that the work i do here on the half the chesapeake bay is is matched by what i try to do with my family and my friends and my peers to help the chesapeake bay this particular reauthorization is designed to bolster his role in this wonderful partnership that we have where the lead partner is e p a but there's four or five federal agencies that are part of the the federal government side of the partnership in combination with the states in the watershed in the district of columbia the reauthorization doesn't number of things which have been mentioned clearly promotes more collaboration within  among the various players that are focusing on the chesapeake bay restoration the chesapeake bay interpretive buoy system is wonderful i could take my cell phone out now we could call one of these buoys and get a report this is payton indicated earlier and think about what that does to the imagination of the next generation in our children in terms of connecting to to the bay and the efforts to preserve the bay the aquaculture technical assistance program which again is strengthened in the reauthorization is absolutely critical to restoring these these very important fisheries that provide a tremendous boost to the economy of the region and the be web program is my favorite because as was mentioned i have authored the no child left inside act which is to get our next generation outdoors raising their awareness about the environment and the program certainly helps in that regard there's one among the grantees of that program arlington eco outdoor education center which serves around the county students in my district the living classrooms in baltimore chesapeake bay foundation of course which is a critical player in this effort also benefit me benefits from the program so i'm very excited about this  and and and you you mentioned i think you put it in the right perspective when you said if we're if we can't move these bills it will represent a significant weakening of our restoration efforts and so we ought to put it in that letters one from the chesapeake bay commission in support of h r seven hundred seventy one and the other from friends of the john smith chesapeake trail which is where these interpretive buoys are deployed and without object no no objection so ordered thank you very much in the time remaining pain in the end if you could just take a stab at describing for me what you see as the new opportunities through the efforts of know and more broadly even for citizen empowerment with respect to cleaning up the chesapeake bag because my sense is with the new levels of information and data that we have available and how it's drilled down really to the backyard level in some respects that the opportunity for citizen to join in this partnership as equal partners at a place where it's never been and if you could comment on that or respond i'd really appreciate  it i'll begin and what i would almost say without having collaborated with my partner here is i'll take that question from a passionate point of view and peyton will fill in the technical details of this but it seems to me the chesapeake bay program is very very water quality driven there are huge efforts right now to reduce nitrogen phosphorus and sediment and that's what's in the process all the time obviously because it's an extremely difficult thing however that is not what brought the citizens in the region to the table i don't believe because i believe you can swim in dirty water and you can float on dirty water and you can have a great deal of fun on dirty water and it's it's quite beautiful the thing that brings the passion to the region is the base enormous productivity it's the fish and the wildlife i mean there are three hundred and forty eight species of fish in the chesapeake bay there are three thousand six hundred plants and animals in the chesapeake bay and the thing that connects us technically to those things is no one so it's not and i'm not trying to slam e p a e p a is great but this this hearing is about no and you need to understand that that's the connection that being said the thing that brought many many years ago the congress to the chesapeake bay was makin mathias on the senate side and his love of watching the waterman plied the waters and those waterman who are very iconic in the bay called waterman because they transfer what they fish for depending upon the season they really are transitioning into a more awkward culture situation and again i don't want you to think that's a fault of the bay region that it's happening globally jock cousteau and you know his son's phillipe cousteau will tell you that it's heading towards aqua culture and it is no us that is preparing us and providing watermen training in this regard the lead another piece i want to mention and then go to environmental literacy is something that hasn't been mentioned that's vital is no it has launched a program called neemo and neil works with local governments in maryland pennsylvania and virginia and it works with them to try to incorporate natural resource thinking into local ordinances and  local planning and zoning and local decision making and i am sure and i don't mean to speak out of turn but i'm sure you are realized as congress men and women and i have certainly realized as someone who works also at the state level that all the good policy that we can pass cannot match decisions at the local level correct decisions at the local level and again it is nola that is doing that and doing that work and so those reasons then you take all of that and then you add this environmental literacy component and to me what environmental literacy is environmental literacy is understanding the importance of the environment the economic social and natural resource context so it's not just thinking about green things when someone when you're in biology class it's thinking about green things in math and science and when you practicing plumber and when you're a nurse or whatever and that's what we're trying to get the next generation to understand that environment hold thinking is as important as math and science and language and is doing that and so i don't i hope i answered your question i hope i added some passion in that that's what's different about now in the bay program and that's why it should grow because the people care about those things and then will bring water along because they should care about water but they don't and the cleanliness of the water thank you and following on that testimonial i can only say thank you and i probably won't be able to provide quite the passion though it does run deep for me i got my start as a as a field educator for the chesapeake bay foundation many moons ago and  the excitement of children getting out in the water and handling fish and getting pinched by crabs and and you can see as as you well know congressman the kind of of excitement they have in those experiences so clearly memorializing the bay watershed education training program is a great opportunity i think a little more technical side the work that we're doing on monitoring and decision support under the executive order is important in much the context that and describe that it's not just about water quality in reading measurements in milligrams per liter those important regulatory tools for managing water quality in the bay are absolutely what's what's important to get the water cleaned up that as she suggested the things people care about and some of the opportunities to relate information to people in the information age that we're in and relate to them in much the way that you described the sort of instant way that people get information through handheld devices is going to be i think much more important in terms of engaging people so the term i would leave you with his engagement and what does engagement mean in terms of people being interested enough that they'll make choices that will ultimately make a difference in the health of the estuary and so i like you i'm very excited about the opportunities this legislation affords no i like and think that the things that know it does across its wide spectrum of capabilities everything from predicting the weather to managing fish still working in coastal zone management are going to be critical i would just end with another example of where engagement is evident and that's in the funds we've dispersed to the ira or recovery act and that includes community based restoration so that includes getting people involved in the work and we're very excited to know it to be able to take those resources and get out with local communities to actually places that they can restore that they can get their hands dirty and see the results in the long term thank you very much i thank the gentleman from maryland and now i'd like to recognize mr whitman gentleman from virginia thank you madam chairwoman  thank you all so much for coming to testify before us today taking time out of your busy schedule and i want to thank you for your testimony your thoughts and your passion for these two bills on the chest could agree with the more i think they are critical to the success of our future efforts in restoring the  i think we all share deeply in your same line of passion let me ask you this i'm interested very much in your idea of an independent evaluation as wanting if you might be able to shed a little more light on on that concept and tell us a little bit about what you think  me begin by saying that pressure is a great thing it was great when you were a small child and you know you had to study and your mother said you better do it by five o'clock and it's good now and oversight is a good thing and it's very very difficult for the states for example to conduct their own oversight and it's very very hard for the general assembly to conduct their own oversight unless they're being told do it i mean we've all seen people try but usually gets co opted in some way so the idea here is that the u s congress would say accountability is very important to us and we believe in adaptive management and we should always be continuously improving so how could that help well if there was i guess what i'm looking at is the i g and but not for the purposes of the i g because it's my understanding that the i g conducts independent and objective audit or investigations or inspections whatever you want to call it with the primary objective of presenting or detecting fraud or abuse this is not about broad and abuse so we're going to take that concept and there we're going to apply it to adaptive management what i see is that the members of the executive council which are the governors of the three states maryland pennsylvania and virginia the mayor of the district of columbia the administrator of the e p a on behalf of all federal agencies and the chesapeake bay commission so you've got five members representing the executive branch you've got the commission doing legislative branch what if the executive council was through this piece of legislation required to appoint an independent evaluator they would have a separate office for you know colocated in the bay program that's fine or perhaps separate maybe up at the chesapeake bay commission office i never thought about that before we don't have room but i mean the idea is i don't want them so close that they can be co opted in daily life you know but there are the idea here is they would have access to state and federal data and they would either choose to review something based on an executive council request we've adopted two year milestones to reduce nitrogen and phosphorus and sediment or these milestones working this is a new approach independent evaluator tell us if it's working tell us what the flaws are that would be an example of where the council asked them but they should also have the authority to choose a subject for study independent of the executive council so that if they see something that really does need investigation that they could conduct that investigation how you would fund such a thing we would have to enter into some discussions with other familiar with the federal budget i don't believe it would be enormously expensive but i do believe it would probably require a few several or a full time employees or the equivalent in a contract and what i would also suggest is produce something like this and if you need to sunset it in five years we value it was an important decision but i do believe it would shake things up enough and provide the kind of oversight that the congress is deeply interested in what's the underlying principles of ten fifty three i am captured though by your comment where you say the bills requirements would duplicate existing efforts and my question would be is does executive order thirteen five o eight does it include a cross cut funding through joint funding across always but that would be different in a cross cut budget which would require in the budget for each agency to specifically to find a single line item in the federal budget where those dollars are being spent in the drill down to each agency as to within those agencies where those dollars are being spent so yours yours would be an overall plan this would be more related to the federal budget in ways that would those two be mutually exclusive i believe you describe an accountability would be there and is in some ways represented by some of the outlines that have already been done or that just big action plan which was developed last year that is that you can go in and see what each federal agencies on a particular program and your written testimony you mentioned that originally you did not support the establishment of the century but since then you have changed your opinion and now fully embrace the centuries a very positive asset in northeast michigan could you highlight why this national marine sanctuaries been successful and how it has enhanced it communities in northeast michigan and following up with that would you anticipate the proposed boundary modification will bring similar results to el accounting and the press skill county and the larger communities of harris fill in rogers city thank you for your question yes i am a convert if you want to put it that way  and you know erin when i got gotten volved with the sanctuary and was actually surprised that they put me on the advisory committee not as a member but as an alternate and i kind of thought of myself as like the fox in the chicken coop and trying to preserve in my mind you know the opportunity for divers to make sure there were no restrictions on diving that we had all the access we needed to the rex that there was not a fee ever charged to divers those were the kinds of thoughts that i wanted to prevent from happening and while working with and being part of that committee not only did i meet a bunch of great people and and come to realize that there was a greater cause but those kinds of things were in the original draft of the management well the proposed management plan or the first management plan and those those were never violated you know nobody tried to ever infringe on those things and same thing with the fishing community people members of the fishing community were brought onto the committee and they were worried about their rights being you know regulated in some way and by far their greater community than the diving community because it's a larger sport obviously and none of their rights were ever violated so all this trust is built up over the years and it's that trust that brings me here today so all that said i think that that the expansion of the sanctuary will he give us  more more demand on our programs we currently in the sanctuary have a fantastic opportunity where we we meet with youth there's all kinds of if you walked in that sense for a given day there's going to be kids learning about archaeology the kids applying the things they learned in school and having the opportunity to what might seem like a game is in reality is application of their their abilities you know and we all like to have the opportunity to use what god gave us in terms of our intellect and so i think the sanctuary is that kind of hands on situation and being an educator you can see the joy in the people that are doing it i don't care if it's a young child or a graduate student working with the sanctuary directly or just there visiting on a project or if it's a family working together working on this boat building project that we have there there are opportunities are fantastic they're there their smiles are more than enough to to make you happy about what you're doing and what's going on and it's that kind of saying and you talk about awareness these people here we're talking about awareness for ecology and we're talking about that same kind of awareness for maritime heritage and we can teach and have people practice a lot of skills that aren't something that they're directly thinking about you know they can use the mathematics they can use their science while they're doing this thing there and they're having fun doing it and they go away with a very positive feeling and the community itself both all three communities have rich maritime heritage as a matter of history and now to reach have the ability to recapture it we have a lot of groups of people recapture a maritime history history with lighthouses and that kind of thing and it's just as a means of going through and doing our management plan this topic of expanding the boundaries was brought to us from those communities as comments and so it became part of the management plan in reality and it's in our management plan to do this other ways but in the real sense this is all happened because of that which is the same process of public input and that kind of thing so there's really a big basis here for community support and good we're going to go i think you've pretty much answered my next question and that is that the state of michigan and all of the counties in the major communities that would be affected by the proposed expansion remain supportive to your knowledge is there any substantial local opposition to this or there's always i guess you know you i can't say that i've found it any good it's just  people want this some want it for economic reasons i think the boost you know some people want to you know like myself i go back a couple of generations my great grandfather was a coast guard captain at the have my reason for wanting to revise that plus at the same time you know i have an economic reason because i'm in a involved in the diving business and that kind of thing so everybody has a reason to be positive about it and to be honest i don't think there's much of any kind of negative out there well good that's good to hear are there other endorsements for h r nine o five that you might mention in addition to the letters of support that were mentioned by mr robertson do you well i can i can testify that the divers that i have come to me for the business and the charter and are all excited about it they want they're constantly asking me you know what's that update i get e mails back and forth and that kind of thing most divers i know are very much interested in this kind of protection they want to come back and see these artifacts and they look at these things as underwater museums and they want to know that they can come back and take a look at it again and that their kids can come back and look at it in the future thank you thank you very much mr kroll i'd like now to recognize mr whitman i'm sorry yes thanks want to pick up back with the line of questioning to mr robertson concerning the executive order i was wondering do you believe that congress has a constitutional responsibility for budgeting and with that an oversight role cut budget can you tell me how you believe we would create transparency of expenditures and efforts in bay restoration activities in our federal budget the plan i referenced i think really is describe a chesapeake action plan that would describe specifically how federal funding proposed in the president's budget will be used to protect and restore the chesapeake bay for the upcoming fiscal year so it's is that kind of outline a vision i think the transparency i reporting in your progress reporting that includes reviewing indicators environmental conditions in the bay and assessing the able to taste of the action plan during the previous year so that same kind of adaptive management you describe in your bill is in vision as is happening through this order sure so that would be in the president's budget but it would necessarily have a congressional role there as far as the information provided there and then the oversight to look at where the dollars are being spent in understanding exactly where they go within the agency within the context of congressional efforts what happens in the after with crosscut budgeting accomplishes things that the executive order could not accomplish i imagine it might well let me ask this then in the context i'm trying to do is to just draw some parallels here looking at both efforts and not trying to be confrontational only to try to define both efforts in trying to say that it appears that with both efforts and responsibilities both executive branch and the legislative branch that these two efforts really are complimentary and not duplicative in that there are some things that this bill contains that the executive order does not and that really rather than say or duplicative would run in parallel to try to achieve the same ends and that is that this body should also be looking at the efforts as well as the executive branch and that those two should run in parallel would you believe with some of the mutually exclusive elements of this bill that in essence they really could parallel complimentary efforts in making sure that both the executive branch and the legislative branch are simming their duties and cleaning up the bay and making sure we have accountability and transparency as congress and appreciate your question i think that's that's really what i was trying to get at is what are those distinctions and are they discrete enough that they merit having both things whether they're parallel or not i think it's also germane the discussion that and raise about independent evaluator that is that in many respects they're all driving for the same thing we want to make sure we have accountability we want to make sure we have transparency that ultimately the funds appropriated by congress are expended in a way that gets results and that both congress and the administration has a responsibility through the appropriations and through oversight to make sure that the dollars are being spent so i can look at both is not necessarily being duplicated but actually being complimentary running in parallel paths to make sure there are actually two levels of countability accountability there through oversight of agencies which is an executive branch role and also oversight from the congress on the budgeting and and oversight role so you know what what i what i hope is that everybody sees these as complimentary efforts in my question you would be is that are there ways that we can work to make sure that this bill is indeed complimentary to executive branch efforts in the action plan through transparency and budgeting to make sure that both  distribute it because when one of the problems of course is over over a period a years people's trust level with the government has declined and you yourself have confessed to being a victim of that it at some level in this process but you come back to the idea that we don't people have to be scared of their government working in partnership with government you can really do some good things and your testimony to that effect is very opportunities for knowledge to get on the leading edge with respect to climate change research and its impact on the back and how that can help us with prescriptions for adapting to climate change and taking steps within the within the watershed to push back against climate change thank you congressman for your question is as you know certainly as this committee knows the field hearing that you had over the smithsonian environmental research center a couple of weeks ago climate and its impact on chesapeake bay is a very real and present issue and i think you heard great expert witness testimony on some of those impacts for no i think we look forward to trying to bring the science that we have to that problem and work on solutions again not to dwell on the executive order but it does call on you know a working with us yes to develop a report that addresses both the issue of research one of the science needs what do we need to further understand some of that with respect and know that again i'm sure you've heard about before has to do with modeling what's the modeling done a very large scales how can we downscale those models and look at specific impacts of climate change on a more regional level and the other aspect of the report of the executive order will include adaptation  how do we adapt to changing climate over time again referring to much of what you heard a couple of weeks ago about the impacts on wetlands well what lands retreat or will they be able to keep up with sea level rise perhaps more importantly for the public what are the impacts on infrastructure what's going to happen with coastal resources that are very proximate to the shoreline that are in low lying areas how we address those i think programs that no one brings to the table like coastal zone management like like mapping like assessment  of those coastal resources and the critical impacts of climate change and those resources the things that no one brings to the table so we look forward to working with you in the committee is appropriate to address that issue one of the things that's impressed me in working on this rea uthorization bill excuse me is that no during this last period of activity took some things that began just is an issue that's very creative initiatives and and really bolster them in a way that now we want to recognize recognize those and put them into statute and say this this initiative is now something that ought to be part of the infrastructure of no was mission with respect to the chesapeake bay and my hope would be that the initiatives that you take with respect to climate change can evolve in a similar way so that when we come back again to reauthorize after a period of time we will be able to identify climate change initiatives as ones that  really locked into the infrastructure of your mission and it sounds like you're perfectly prepared to take that charge job thank you for that if i can offer a couple of examples and they speak  you describe is more or less pilot initiatives that we've we've tested and seeing some success with and mention this chesapeake network for education a municipal officials which is really targeted to the local decision making level and local governments in fact worked in c is district with matthews county hosting a series of meetings to bring local planners together is that county evaluate its future comprehensive plan with the success of that dealing particularly with chesapeake bay restoration and preservation issues this year we're working on you could best describe as adding a climate module to that that is that local governments are similarly struggling with how to deal with the impacts of climate change they know that this coming i think it's fairly well accepted now that yes this is real it's happening but of course they're struggling with what do we do about it exactly what what are our choices and how we address adaptation in the future similarly proud to share with you that i detailed someone from my office to the regina secretary of natural resources as that state was developing its climate change adaptation strategy so with respect to taking the federal knowledge and information we have been injecting it into the state governance process eases is another kind of activity i think we can do that will be helpful of a nationally sanctuary center in my district at the mariners museum in newport news so i'm intrigued by the aspect of this bill h r nine zero five and having a retroactive element to it can you shed a little more light about the idea behind having the provisions of the bill be retroactive and is there a purpose behind that or is there any anything that expands liability or or or or enforcement efforts retroactively i'm just trying to  come to understand the retroactive aspect of the bill i i really don't have the wherewithal to tell you exactly why my so my feeling is that the  retroactive is to some part an opportunity also through the state of michigan for people to return artifacts that might be taken or have been taken in the past and so that those kinds of things will be an opportunity there for for that to happen without any repercussions in any way as we do now within the sanctuary mr robertson do you have any any any thoughts or ideas about the retroactive  elements of the bill and i confess i'm not familiar enough with the bill to respond to that we could certainly get back to you with this one from asian on your question that would be great i'm just just curious because you know we talk about sanctuary act bills some of them come up with a retroactive well like this one comes up with a retroactive element others don't so i'm just wondering is there something distinct about this particular situation that would require that and what the what the efforts are behind that so the committee we would appreciate it i think all of the witnesses this morning for their participation in the hearing and members of the subcommittee may have additional questions for the witnesses and we will ask you to respond to these in writing and in addition the hearing record will be held open for ten days for anyone that would like to submit additional information for the record so if there is no further business before the subcommittee the chairwoman again thanks the members of the subcommittee and our witnesses for their participation here this morning and this subcommittee stands adjourne