the truth yes your honor i think the best example i can give you is the fact that on the very same day that the department recognized hebrew israel lights they also recognize secular humanism except that on secular humanis there's literally nothing confirmed despite the fact that mistrust and is a specific least thought group meetings for humanists whereas hebrew israel lights have holidays they've already been pre approved for group meetings weekly study all sorts of property they so it would be impossible for the hebrew israel lights to have had to prove on the very same day as getting all those seventeen holidays in the chart it also says the form that they are citing that mistrusts been assessed a file it says that you can't it can be more than forty five days before the observance but no later than thirty days after yet the hebrew israel lights on that very same day got all of their holidays a full calendar is your worth of holidays there is no form of state a form for state wide approval of a holiday there's only the three  now you're talking about the hebrew israelites what they couldn't have filed any forms that's fine and i take your point but that goes to i guess you are pretext argument i'm asking like as a practical matter h additional process since humanism was put on the list no your honor and what i'm what i'm suggesting is that they're not they haven't taken away the discrimination they've they've compounded it by treating humanists differently from another group on the same right that's a different issue i understand that but he hasn't filed a meet the tional forms because there are no forms that would be applicable to the situation they are claiming a form that does not apply to the situation he would have had to file then they're saying that for him to get group meetings in the overview chart he would have to file a kite form that's also a regional form that a chaplain would look at this and say ok we'll give you your group meetings if they're proven the overview chart you go to the overview chart and it says none underlined humanism hasn't been approved mr spinoza's application is still pending his three  five years ago is still pending the rules in the in the religious practice manual states that the religious review team is required to issue a written decision on the application and give the inmate the final decision in writing and stored in record seeking humanist recognition as well as group study meetings he's already filed before it's pending they haven't approved it in fact i would submit that they've maybe have have rejected it by putting none they didn't leave it blank for humanist meetings to be approved humans are the only group in the faith your overture if you charge that have not been automatically approved for faith group meetings and so the kite again is only a regional form it does not apply statewide the religious review team is responsible for updating their chart there is a policy that states that once they recognize a faith group in the overview chart it is up to the director or the religious review team to make necessary amendments in the overview chart that' thus the onus is on the religious review team to put those holidays after they've so you know done considerable research on the matter now there's also the voluntary sedation doctor and as this court knows it's exceedingly rare for a defendant last minute you know final hour decision to move a case they carry a very heavy for medical burden of demonstrating to this court not just stating but demonstrating that their disparate treatment a few minutes is not likely to occur the only of it is that they submitted on this issue is the declaration of a reference night or who frankly isn't even a defendant in this case the declaration states there's two reasons why the delisting of our faith is unlikely to be is not is not likely to happen the st is that once a through has been recognized there automatically entitled to various rights and benefits and that taking away those rights and benefits would create some more al issues with with those inmates the problem of course years they have not granted humanist anything the overview chart is completely empty so they wouldn't be taking anything away secondly they say that the result the reason for adding a new faith group to the overview chart is because it's a product of meticulous review they've done a lot of research on the faith group and they're confident that it should be recognised  american humanist association have a list of holidays or whatever yes your honor we cited them in our complaint and in fact the federal bureau of prisons not only recognizes humanism but it also recognizes holidays and allows it here of secular humanism to observe the two of those holidays summer solstice and winter solstice are already approved by the nevada department of corrections in the overview of chart for five other faith groups since two thousand and sixteen they've been on notice that those same two holidays are shared with humanist we put it in our complaint we've discussed it in our briefs and yet even at this late stage when they have an opportunity to modify their overview chart and give humanist holidays just like they did for keeper israel life giving them seventeen the very least could have given the humanist those two holidays that are shared by five other faith groups the other two are darwin day and we have international humanist day those are commanded to look at your crimes form they filled out gave to him he says he didn't have new faith group and that is the form in which a group would include holidays or practices but ultimately the rules in the manual state the religious review team does the research once that's been submitted they look at the practice they might correspond with outside community members and then they update their own overview chart there is no in fact the form doesn't have if you look at the three thousand five hundred and five form there's no separate slot for holidays it doesn't put an inmate on notice that they have to list pacific holidays so what's relevant i think is that the department has known about these for humanist holidays they automatically added keeper israel at holidays without any other form because there was no other form to fill out and they have not done so here i will reserve my can chairman as i would you snyder is now that person and i would just like to start off with the questions that the court asked about why are we here because we've given them everything and to address the issues regarding the holidays i'll start at that point there is a form your honor with regard to holidays that needs to be completed its form three thousand five hundred and twenty nine it was included in our motion to dismiss it's also attached as it's also referenced in the record as part of the policy manual with regard to religious policy correction i take it that form has not been filed it has never been completed your honor and with regard to the hebrew israel issue that plane is counsel reference there obviously that's not in the record however the form that is filled out when you do requests for accommodation practices again the practice manual notes that when doing so you are supposed to specifically inform them on that form holidays you request other type of matters that you request and that was not done by mr espinosa here his request form in this case simply said i want humanism to be approved so this is the thirty five thousand and fifty four i'm just if i will find that now counsel is representing that it's still pending hasn't been ruled on in any way is that correct your honor well i would concede that it's been approved by the sense that we have how permanent is that change in the listing it is very permanent your honor and as i point out and reverend snyder points out there has never been a situation where the department of corrections once recognizing a faith group has rescinded that recognition and is also very clear if you look at the faith group overview chart at the charts that have provided both in the record as well as supplemental as part of our most why isn't human listed on the maybe i misunderstood what counsel said humanism is listed on the overview chart i think counsel's concern is that the chart doesn't list any specific holidays or dates that they get with regard to that and i get to go back to the request for  religious accommodation form that mr espinosa fill out that form does not indicate what holidays he like it doesn't indicate what days they need off and with regard to that fact counsel reference darwin day the record here in the complaint they list two holidays or three holidays and say other holidays and there are people in accurate then to state that when you when the o c recognizes a religious group that it comes with that certain benefits like holidays i know counts my preference specifically the hebrew israelites which the o c is representing got recognized in the same way as humanism right but then hebrew israelites got recognized along with these other attendant benefits but humanism indicated that one somebody makes it on the list it doesn't get taken off but there was something going on with the hebrew israelites and i'm just asking a question to clarify the record because i think at one point  note had had them listed but then b o c is say oh no we recognized them at the same time as we recognize humanism can you explain that discrepancy in the record yes thank you rather well there is a there is a document that they but even that being said what that form indicates is that according to chaplin for asco at one point in time there was a way to scroll down and hit him notice that which is the computer the computer system that they wanted to ensure that he and would be identified and which are and our record indicates is also clearly now identifiable and permitted for mr ross perot's or any other humanism to choose that said that they could pick it judaism slash that in and of itself would not indicate that he grew israel light was a religion faith group recognized myself but that it was a subset of some some form of judaism so even if you want to take the  religion is officially recognised it is not taken back and that and chaplains later references that in his supplemental declaration that was attached to our reply brief on the motion to dismiss that's the overview chart that's the official recognition are available to all inmates as a matter of course they are maintained in the law library he can obtain those forms at any point in time so the answer to that is i don't know if he has actually requested the form but they are available t all prisoners as a matter of course to fill out and to complete i have not heard any indications whatsoever that mr as if it was it was ever prevented from filling out any such form or that he has already he's never there's nothing in the record that says he doesn't know what those forms are please get me those forms and also we're here on the motion to dismiss at this stage what is left to be accomplished at this point and the words you're asking us to grant your motion counsel tells us that there are matters that are not yet resolved what what should we do your honor thank you i think you dismissed the case the matters that they are indicating are not yet resolve the issues regarding holidays property and again i give to clarify on the property he's entitled to individual property as well as that and that's figured out and the individual group form but to the extent that he knight any property or denied holidays these things that have not been asked for other than an engine eric sense of we want to be able to meet so that we can do these things without telling us what those things are then he has to fill out these forms he has to go through the proper administrative procedures to get those holidays and who are you saying he hasn't exhausted his remedies and factors that were your yes your honor i would say that to the extent that there is an issue pertaining to any of those things the forms have to be completed it has to go through the exhaustion practice and i would also say at that point time this case becomes very different because that's not an establishment case that would be a free exercise case that would be an issue of us not allowing him to practice his stated religion that's been recognized so i think that that they had been dismissed on screening but that that apparently when the council came on board they decided not to pursue the free exercise case because that was not part of the st or nd amended complaints that that the district court had indicated that they seven their brief what the holidays are but i would submit that that's not actually i mean yes they do say that but in the complaint they had different holidays listed the amica street has different holidays listed and in the settlement agreement that they agreed to with the bureau of prisons in the organ case which is part of the record that the council brought before you they only list one holiday there which is our one day so it's not like we can just simply look at the complaint and know what holidays they want and which is why we make a point of and chaplains later points out and his declaration that these are issues that have to be decided by discussing it with the it here it's within the institutions so that we can ensure that the holidays recognition that they have is what they are very concerned with to ensure that they are providing holidays it would be very weird for us to dictate to them what their holidays would be thank you very much your honor as i see that my time is done so there's no other questions thank you thank you form that was established at the court below he filed the three thousand five hundred and five that is the form where he requested to make accommodations for storage and service then it says in a detailed explanation i should also point out that they expect inmates to describe entire tenants almost in this form they say can file supplemental has that form been rejected you know this is the form that's still pending your honor it says or allow a place for those of secular humanism to congregate and study their beliefs this is still pending it not only has it is it open ended your honor there is this is a gap in their own policies because the thirty five o five doesn't say anything about holidays so there's an inmate would be on notice that they have to list holidays in this request for religious accommodation with respect to the process by the religious review team they are charged with researching the faith group i think we've been very consistent with what the four holidays are in both the bureau of prisons case in this case i don't know about the amicus brief but it's darwin day we sometimes call winter solstice human light and has different names but when i come back isn't that simply ministerial at this point the phrase group has been approved i saw it listed on the overview you're on other cases a charge of discrimination and so the relevant issue is the disparate treatment of two groups and the fact that they are claiming our case for discrimination is moot by just barely treating humanist with another group at that same time to me is just it's a little bit absurd frankly and then of course we have our nominal damage claim which would keep the case alive it hasn't