good evening or welcome you all to the april meeting of the development review board for the town of richmond we have a number of hearings today and so we have a busy agenda i'm going to be fairly strict time limits on some of the applications we've devoted a little more than a half hour to each hearing if we can't get the hearing god will continue here until the next available time which will either be  to get sworn in which will be necessary and if you are an interested person and wish to be involved in an application you need to talking at the hearing expression of thoughts and so forth so that you registers what the law calls interested person which under vermont statute as a person owning title the property  with an interest in the property account a person or occupying the property immediate neighborhood of the property that's the subject of the application for any ten persons who may be a combination of voters or real property owners within the municipality but you have to become an interested person and that means you have to speak also i want to make sure that everyone cites in so that we have a list of everyone  this come tonight use review for parcel located at two eighty two river road to commercial zoning district pursue up to richmond zoning regs section five point six to end a fast food restaurant a mobile truck as part of the mixed use of the property and section four point nine non conforming use to replace it increase the square footage of an existing non conforming single family house about a year ago the people moved out or where he directed whatever the scenario was in roughly march when i started this project on bill donovan the owner talked about fixing up the trailer on the property and i asked him the hold off to see if i could put a newer nicer piece of you know house on the nicer building and that's pretty much where out the only other thing is i  proposing a fence which seems supported or at least excepted from the trailer park half the people i talk to the represent there this they seem pretty supportive of that fence too mainly just i understand you received a notice from the state saying that you do not need anything from the state as fires from transportation as far as the ability to have a truck with  location that you're proposing yes or we got noticed stating that i shouldn't have any problems unless a problem is created basically truck pretty much stay there on slavery or it's it's going to be a mobile food truck that will be the primary location i do plan on maybe taking it to functions and and putting it on the road yes but a majority of the time it'll be to and i believe there is a line running like within ten feet of where i want to be so there's an actual now in the woods there so you may or may not be able to answer this but there was a question of how long the mobile home existing mobile home has been empty yeah and talking with all of our cars i moved and roughly a year ago or so and those people like it were in the process of moving out so i think that we're right on the limits of whatever the year whatever it would be for not being occupied  again it's kind of i push bill the see if we could do something better versus just fix that place up so i mean i think if i want to brought this up or putting into place and i think he probably i would already have fixed up and rent is to there's a lot of foot traffic and i have there's a lot of traffic area there that goes on out there for launches this and that my my main thing is to kind of already go on the traffic that's already there there's going to be a small increase yes i mean it's it's there be a small i think and to be realistic the economy you know really mad it could go either way but i really don't think it's going to be something that's going to take off and go crazy you know i really think it used car lot over the years so there are some areas in the grass that have been i want to say condition a little bit with some gravel and i'd like to to remove you know at least get rid of the gravel and put grass back in there and basically just clean clean the place up and we were already started you know cleaning brush and all the after now dead that stuff and so that's just part of the plan is to clean it up and organizer i i've put in there are stores it's not on the actual math but i am proposing and i think it's on the less a small stake sign it basically says parking in rear so people will be less likely to stop you know right in the middle of their hand or around where people are walking and standing i'm really trying to avoid any pedestrian slash motor vehicle  which i would only i have i'm allowed to for my shop and i would just take one of those and use one maybe just for that and then only what's on the truck for like a menu board for the freestanding yeah  mean i try to bring them and you know that they will come up missing feeling you know hours of operational the daylight daylight hours yeah i'm really trying to lean away from being in the dark or having people especially in the back in the dark you know i kind of want to try part of the proposed fence in that general area and once i get the truck there and i will be within that radius and so when you're doing a trip then calculations and thinking about how much traffic increase and in some ways it sounds like here to be poaching a little bit from the yes there's an upper as you come off there the river there's an upper spot it would seem like a logical place close to the road that's flat so rattled as it is which was where i initially thought it was going to be that's the area it plans to reclaim cedar whatever yeah just restores grassy area to this area up here and then there's a small little dip and then it's down below in the lower area it's flat so it actually be away from the road and even down from the road in like i said i'm sure there's times but i don't plan on leaving stuff to be out there to be taken i mean it's it's pretty it's not much you can leave left unattended you know so i have a small trailer that i'll be probably using to just a lot of my very mouth back and you know get him out away out of to me i see three or four cents on the side of this yeah those are is just shop parking have beef or anything i can keep my own stuff there pretty much and then like behind the store there's i'm counting twenty friends and i ball for he runs what's called the burger barn a jeffersonville and he basically already gets deliveries so we're going to be working together to try to work it out i do not plan on having trucks deliver anything i plan on running a costco  up where it's not as defined but on the trailer park side going up from like the roadside it comes to that to where the opening as of the day that you see that right and i tried to draw the trailers there but that's kind of just to help organize that one section because there's you know everybody has their own woodpiles recreational vehicles and and whatnot so i figured if there's a fence there they want to be looking at my stuff i want to look at theirs and he would also  six feet would almost feel like a waste of fans for the people behind me so i was like kind of it would almost have to be a fee to be beneficial especially for like you know me pulling in my driveway at night not shutting my  it's like it's just slightly higher i think you know ground level wise there's a mound there and i think it's just slightly higher and i'll be honest on my side of the mountains our be able to maintain both sides of the fads that are relying on somebody else existing trailer that's there now is i mean i don't even know how close it is a line but i mean they're they're pretty much back to back those two trailers as far as how close they are to the actual property line i'd say probably ten feet twenty feet depending on the trailer and the exact property or i'm out here to say play shows the new new double wide from oh my so you're talking about my trailer of the  and part of the reason why i take it back on my side is there's also not you know cut them off and they're pretty well cut off already i mean they're you know big trees and you know stuff like that there's only one yard that has a clear pa you know ideas in mind or whatever i'm not going to claim to know how to trailer up  the more questions open to the public and also ok now it's time for anybody in the public to voice any comments criticisms whatever you'd like to say about this project kathleen if you are planning to to do this change go for another year is it is it three hundred sixty five days from the time it was vacated or to the time of application or the time of placement it's whether it's been it needs to be in order for them to be able to get the conditional use approval it has to have been vacant for less than three hundred sixty days to less than three hundred going to say no but it john i'm not positive because of when i was moving and that shop which i would have to check on that was they were like in the process of cleaning their stuff out stuff so i'm going to say now i want to say really been there to april so in that case what we what we might want is to continue the hearing and request some type of letter or testimony from a property owner sure testifying to the fact of when it was vacated and then we can take that hill road lot one will continue to utilize the existing driveway a lot to be hoses to use a new driveway water supply a new drilled the a waste water systems will be mount plate as i said as those have been approved by the state a couple points of discussion in the point during meetings or the existence of the deer yard on the property and we are research indicates that at one time there was many a six lots with legal access off of beaver pond help road i don't think there's ever been more than three houses actually under use up there guess i would go ahead and open up any questions you may have  hasn't passed that the legislature has of passed it's getting late also i sort of was involved in this right from the beginning and when the original conveyance association that exists doesn't recognize the west side of the road it's never actually been removed from the association they just have sort of never dealt with it well the core all of the other lots on the  association reference that are in the design yeah and they don't except it's in your package here now i have a copy of it yeah you know i understand what you're saying about the covered case but i do think that imposing a road maintenance agreement on this and actually would not be good for the town or for the owners of the road because let's there is a situation where everyone is required to contribute creatively as you pointed out if you have a road maintenance agreement in place that's only between the owners of lot one interior than what about the rest of the recognize that you get unless i mean we could we could require you to buying the others but going to what i'm interested in and that's just me personally i'm not the board is that i see too many instances where maintenance isn't discussed and isn't set out and that's cause problems down the road so if you will i guess move my feeling would be you if you would deal  never in an in an agreement about division of that's probably what i would be looking for now that does present problems down the road to one two and how they're going to know i think i imagined at the time that upgrading this road to even the rural standards would be very expensive undertaking even if it was just for the first few hundred feet road and i think it would  in many ways i think it would be likely to kill the project and and i guess if that was you know going to be a very serious consideration i guess i wish it would come up as a serious consideration or earlier expansion of an existing non conforming use there was there's a section in the in the regulations regarding that and that you sensually have you know five lots here now which have a road that is not conforming to these standards and increasing that six we'll allow as i think there's a percentage that you want to increase and make up to fifteen or twenty percent  the other questions ok now i know put it up to the public does anybody have any evidence or comments questions concerning most all you people no one belated to the increased use of the shooting range at an outdoor recreation facilities located thirty ninety seven west white guilt road in the edge of cultural residential zoning district moment because she started this decision that the lower court's decision that the fish and game club has expanded and had intensified use that shooting range from its histor but also that it was not conforming years the decisions were still are still binding and based off of just that that was the basis of my notice a violation was just having decisions out there still binding upon the parties and i was not given a application from the fish and game club for the d m to go in front of you guys for either a non conforming use that expanded or long evenings fit to hear the facts of the evidence i also want to just remind the d or be in the members of the community what a good neighbor this club has been and all the good things they do in november of two thousand and ten we approached the town at that time we had even offered to do a conditional use application and we received a letter from mischance suggesting that a remit hearing would be held by the  big and that all parties would have an opportunity to present evidence at that the r b a hearing which is exactly what we did exactly what we were asked to do and this be issued findings and i do want to remind  be because we agree with your findings well we went through this last on happy to address it again but i do want to i want my opportunity heard we think it's important i or i don't believe it's accurate you have the decisions of course said in the most recent appeal judge wright said that the club didn't have to do anything they did not have to file an application if they chose not to i understand it think it likely is unfortunately we're going to i mean that's the reality whatever happened here and but i want to point out a couple of things the town did not have their version if he had i mean that's what i would like that will say that usage that you heard testimony two days back in december and january of two thousand and eleven that the usage has not changed materially since that time so what i'm saying is we did talks about rescue caught up the town as is relying on the two thousand and four opinion they haven't given any facts to say anything is been no testimony to show that we have done anything to increase the years since the last hearings on happy follow so the manifest injustice here is that we provided to you and you agreed that the nine hundred sixty nine all of the testimony you heard because remember none of the neighbors were there prior to that time i think there was testimony from one person who was five old or four years old and had some anecdotal testimony but all the testimony you heard over that two day period related to the work from club members who have been there we have been here again tonight who will tell you there were two thousand members hundred ninety there was gas were allowed to use the rooms the usage was substantially higher than it is today so the manifest injustice is i wasn't involved in those prior court proceedings but obviously the members they had much more extensive use which we showed through prior proceedings and so i know you're not a court but you can find that there is no violation but i don't think it has been no change in the facts of the present bill or testimon there's been no change in the law since we presented our testimony so what does that mean the same facts same law you should render the same decision she bade it your word because you didn't have jurisdiction which she said was because in terms of the notice of violation are you saying that it was improper for one to base it on those decisions i am that's where that's where just because the d r p found that we weren't that's one thing if you had come back and said you know what th fish and game club has tripled their dues one hundred sixty nine and we said we're going to keep doing the same thing then a notice of isolation should have gone out but that's not what happened we found that we didn't freeze or yes we were doing all or trying to do is we have you know members who are just trying to exercise their constitutional rights in a lawful manner we did exactly what the town told us to do and one arm of the town is sending out and there's a violation saying you can't do it when the other being here the decision maker is saying we have an increased usage so lowe testified in court didn't move in until the one nine hundred ninety s he's the one who said it doubled the court found in the one nine hundred from the one nine hundred seventy to two thousand and four that there may have been a doubling but you folks found and i agree that there's no manifest and justice for meet it you know i'm an officer of the court and said this before i tell everyone to testify honestly and i had people do that for two days and the evidence showed that there was not an increase in usage and in fact there's been a substantial   put in safety measures we restrict the hours of operation legally i think we have not then i know we have the right to do what we're doing nine hundred sixty nine so i'm asking this panel not  to find that there's no basis for the nurse a violation and i really do think it's unjust and unfair to issue it when we did everything that the town has to do so i i'm not here all the time but i do check in often and as well as with other members of the board and you know we do communicate what's going on what i'm the biggest thing i'm concerned  putting out several hundred richmond residents for the basis of just a few people now that i don't know what that means legally but i just feel we're in our hands of the can see no difference as it there's a bunch of guys they're all middle age guys a lot of retired guys half of them don't even shoot they go up there socialize i mean it's it's a meeting place for them and we can say it's that stands for less than it was in the sixt s it is less yes and you heard gunshots from other properties surrounding the kind of yes i have and have you heard that after hours yes yes i'd be up there cleaning up afterwards and making sure nobody and there is a gentleman who manufactures firearms and he goes gunsmithing and he touched something on his property and these are probably half to three quarters of a mile from us and i think we've been  for hits that there's wildlife management area near the club that credit absolutely is for hunting a kind of for hunting and shooting so people can hunt in that area and if there's shooting in that area you have no control over that it's paid for by hunting licenses and mansion area other people see their yards they hunt and so my point with respect to that is that the burden is on the town to show that in the noise and the usage that is being complained about is shared with coming from the club twelve zero six all testimony of parties who witnesses must be made under oath or affirmation so letters won't do it and so do i'm not going to contention that there was no nine hundred sixty nine evidence in the original trial we submitted back in two thousand and four eleven the transcript in which the president of the club testified he had been a member since sixty's fred sold the property to the gun so i'd urge you to recognize what the court order says to come forward from two thousand and three to acknowledge the testimony v is that it's the same as it was in sixty nine and that the court has already made the determination the fact as the as doug at least up the court's order was clear in two thousand under section four point we are where we've been for eight years the town is now taking the appropriate steps to get some compliance nine hundred sixty nine this became a known form the town made a decision that it wasn't strictly to use for that area there grandfather absolutely and none of the neighbors argue with that but for the last forty years the town hasn't made any effort to reclassify that the evidence that you've given that you've heard this evening that you'll hear we continue to find a violation so i i don't hear anybody arguing that the usage has gone back down for them to put two thousand four level i would agree with that it ha if we're going to continue i think it would be a good not admitted we took them for what they were worth is figure out take the usages of two thousand and four which is when judge wright issues your decision that's the one which said he doubled or as much as four or five times more precise the scope or intensity the use i didn't like the language may have increased by four to five times so in my letter i simply said judge wright definitely found it had doubled so was what triggered judge wright saying you must apply for an expansion of a non conforming use or so i want to clarify something that because people keep bringing up this phrase the judge reigns order yes said that it doubled or maybe four or five times as much but she goes on to say which people have been conveniently leaving off for a mass compared with the amount of shooting that had  widening and through the eighty's there is no reference to nine hundred sixty nine timeframe which is the relevant point against which we determine increased usage because that's when our zero effect unfortunately judge wright's two thousand and eleven decision that allowed the appellant's renew their quest that's just myth and so on to the zoning administrator to initiate enforcement action so we were freed the town was free to initiate enforcement action if somebody desert judge wright made in two thousand and eleven made an explicit judge judge wright said if they wish to do so well that doesn't sound like a requirement i don't no they had a choice under judge wright's order which was  once we take two thousand and four as the starting point and we say ok they have and they have apply for permits they have to cure somehow and that means cutting back the use i don't pretend that this is a perfect world and that these decisions are a model of clarity but i do said the town is not trying to stop the fish and game plop of conducting its operations they would be very happy if the fish and game club complied with judge wright's order and apply for permits or if the club demonstrated the youth clubs that since two thousand and three it has cut its use back by half but that here she says to its nine hundred sixty nine level not to its two thousand and three level because there is no the one thing nobody has said is that the non conforming use has ceased to exist for more than three hundred sixty five required to return to would be its nine hundred sixty nine levels if it has otherwise increased beyond that level we can tell them you have to go back to the two thousand and three level of seventy one well there that's not that's not what we can do but that's something where every her decision you know i'm going to say something in this probably not appropriate richmond is a beautiful community it's congenial people help each other we have horrible flooding and people are out there digging them up you people have been at this for what fourteen here thousands and thousands and thousands of legal fees so your lawyers are getting nicer should be get a nice impact they don't look at but you know  to an agreement because what's going to happen here is nobody is going to not everybody is going to like whatever we do here and it's going to go back to the environmental corps and perhaps the supreme court and it's going to come back here and this is going to go on and on clearly chosen not to do in the last at least thirty years and so they're not going to hand it will people that are so excited either way we're right if somebody said we're going to be back here anyways so let's like not come back here back here the first time and it was very strong i must think that you that we don't want to hear it that you go to mediation and you left and took an awful long time to go to mediation and finally started  know what lori says correct we cannot solve your problem what ever decision we make the other side is going to appeal it you're going to do it all over again it's going to come back to us hopefully in  decision a little more understandable than the ones that we have in front of us but do you know how much time and money you're going to spend we don't want to make this decision for you guys we really doubt we a likely appeal neighbor and that's how i was raised now my question is how can we determine the change of use in sixty nine to today when back in sixty nine all of us didn't live there i was i believe the first house  but to say that all the shots that i heard came from the game club would be misleading and the other question i have for you mr sunshine is that if you have determined that those letters are not acceptable according to the then why have you taken them if you read them that to me would contaminate your decisions and therefore they should not be reviewed by any of the board members until they're you there meet the standards of the law because i believe that is accepting evidence that is not actually illegal and therefore i believe you should return old letters on read to the individuals until that hundred seventy six what i've seen there is a lot of continually that elites are you about to give us evidence no no i just know i'm just trying to give you an understanding of my perspective of of a gathering place than it is a shooting posters people a camp there is people who fish there there's people who go there directory not necessarily shoot to oh my hiking of you know there's many uses for that property  it's an outdoor area is something to spend there all my lawyer is something that this town should take into account as being a tangible income you know for the for the town transiency on both parties i mean going back a few years ago and our initial conversations that we had i was told by the opposition that we only want one thing we want to come out i don't think there is a commonality here reaching from the opposition to have any kind of a resolution of this thing i think it begs it's crying out for resolution so that everybody can get along here but if one party does not even want any kind of mediation or adjustment of  instead of spending was up to seventy thousand dollars in legal fees at that point we rather put that into into sound abatement beautification and things that actually if there is a will on your part to really reduce the sound that is emanating  supposedly emanating from this they weren't interested so what do you do in a situation like that i think there is a common will here is to recede to the other side i only ask the other side what are they willing to a seed to in terms of the o i don't know where they were going to work up here concern about what's going on so she just had an illustration of what she said the other person just and it's not maybe her fault that she doesn't realize what an automatic weapon is and she didn't go out and walk but by saying that is clear is it could be to me and i'm a layman i'm not an attorney and try to make a reasonable interpretations of the things that we've heard here over the years but it is when i read words that she's i have highlighted things like if they concluding this appeal that the best i can tell from that and we tried to not make a decision we said we don't feel we can make a decision we're not in a position to make a decision it's not our interest to make a decision and the way i interpret her two thousand and eleven decision is she says you're right you should have made a decision and so we throw it out so she sort of validated what we thought we couldn't do and then she goes on to say this decision does not worth the club to file an application this decision does not in any way limit the rbs authority to consider a duly file that occasion or to consider an appropriate appeal from a decision of the zoning administrator and that's exactly what we're here for so she sh through our decision she said it's back to the parties and one of the parties has it and so there was a notice of violation by the town and there and an appeal and that's why we're here  continue it for thirty days and see if these folks can get together in thirty days to agree to mediate if not they will close it in thirty days can you take thirty days and come up with a timetable that i work for all three let's do minutes and then and then we could just