that that i hindsight analysis to say one of skill in the art would simply find it quite easy simple to make that combination well as a route as a set for th they argue that they had a very strong on the facia case and that these these issues of secondary considerations and commercial success were or you know we shouldn't even be considered because they're part of the fish case was strong but the point and you were to combine it with a you know with a casement windows you would end up putting that that combination would end up putting that screen on the outside of the casement window that that's going to be in fairly simple art and some pretty strong references in that setting well kids are going to overturn the concept of basically a reason to ignore evidence and sure everything is common sense it's a it's an excuse for hindsight and you know we've made arguments that you know t you're teaching a way argument is based on a passing statement of more or less permanent and mckean reference right so but the more  means it's not always permanent right it's not always permanent but if you have to climb to the second story of a building and try to get change or screens because there aren't there on the certain awareness of how to design windows he would put it on the inside knowing that velcro can be attached to any surface you put it on the most convenient one won't you and wouldn't that be true of any one of skill in the art it would go around the in the inside of the front as the teachings which but it wouldn't go between the frame and the sash and one of the large benefits is that every time you close that window it helps to further seal that velcro and you know so that is the problem with their what they call a strong  e evidence of commercial success how do you the problem with commercial success is linking it directly to the claimed invention or how do we know that the sales weren't just the result of crafty marketing and other aspects of the marketplace there were two declarations filed during the prosecution of the application windows and doors for doors aren't coins so that's not the kind invention he says that contract was awarded in part because of the well again all of those weasel words leave us wondering is it really be claimed invention or something else that caused those sales a large part of they are correct and you know these are my client is here you know these are common people he's got a small window company in fort collins colorado and these declarations do show that a large part of these sales were for the for the windows in bought into the invention still you have here you have to overcome what i think i'd have to say is that is a strong run clichy case of obviousness based on the references that you've been discussing specific statements in the in the declaration that paragraph twenty two of the brandy held cers says the architect in the above five hundred eighty thousand dollars contract selected the friend was velcro scream specifically because of the features and he goes on to say that the architect specifically did not want a conventional set of friends that is the nexus at least for that sale of five hundred eighty thousand dollars on the architect who was the customer skase also had a declaration that he said that that he he wanted the claimed invention screens because it offered cochrane a minute ago he could see some reason to combine the two but what would account for the claimed requirement that it's the velcro would be placed between the window and this movable sat there by providing a tighter seal not a particularly attractive feature of the claimed invention that limitation is actually there's that account you think for the between the window on the sash then why i think the best way to account for that would be the fact that cain teaches place that's where cain teaches placing the screen between the exactly your our last record not only gives you the velcro but it gives you the concept of using velcro to attach a screen to a window and there's nothing in lasses lessard that makes the fact that it's a window opening of an automobile problem however is that the board reasonably determined that you cannot conclude that there is a fact six point three million dollars worth of commercial success based on the two affidavits that  that he provided well how do you feel in the paragraph twenty two where there does seem to be a specific length of the no pro screen to at least  half a million dollars of sales i think you would need to read paragraph twenty two in conjunction with paragraph twenty one which qualifies the total five hundred eighty thousand dollars by saying the due in part due in part to the aesthetic value and paragraph twenty two further explanation of what in fact that aesthetic value  honor they really don't have as much weight it's hard to really evaluate commercial success based on raw sales numbers and this court has found that in a number of cases i believe in right wong is it's a good example of a million dollars and meaning well i mean they've made a big sale and somebody says it's because of this invention you'd have to qualify even that half a million dollars your honor because  again there are you know there's a suggestion that there are other factors that came into play so there's not that there is no nexus between the full half million dollars and claimed  venture in other cases this court has made a similar analysis when there are hundreds of millions of dollars of commercial success like in rape also and there were half a billion dollars worth of commercial success and yet that was not found to have  so with regard to the do or i just wanted to address that issue sales are always doing to the various factors in the can't all be attributed to one single factor these declarations are by individuals these are honest candid declarations and i think you can see that when you when you read the declarations when you read them as a whole they show commercial success this is a very highly highly competitive business you know every x football player you know in you know starting a window company or a you know a kitchen cabinet company this is a highly competitive business and this invention is cheaper it's better it's morris that it and he has done very well with this and he builds high end windows that so i guess my point is is that these are honest and candid declarations i think if you read them as a whole you will see that they do present evidence of commercial success of this and