recommendation for example here is sixty days prove the board said forty five days and that he would say that that's permissible is correct i would say that would be permissible because this is going to recommend it so suspension the amount of suspension the board him good but the road can already suspend when the superintendent has recommended suspension because that when this court decides a question of the law it's reviewers to know but be quite to give weight and deference to the some place is the superintendent making powers and many responsibilities and the limitations of the every power of the superintendent hands is limited this way there's various levels of discipline or so buried sage's that can be impose if the superintendent decided to suspend for six to thirty days while the statute doesn't provide for or believe you broke rules do based upon the supreme court's decision  use thirty days as imposed by the board less than thirty days or less is imposed by the inherited statutory authority of the superintendent that's why in this department of day to day basis he is in the best position to get that the rules through but the provides that everything is subject to the rules of the department in the instruction or applies to any disciplinary situation outside the confines of a particular case i don't think that the police board can instruct the superintendent they act in some way that's canterbury to a statutory authority now there is a provision in the media spoken about the board members making recommendations  separations are so that if the recommendation of the superintendent is removal it's your position and that the board cannot destroys that individual is that correct that would be correct so  superintendent is the chief operating officer of the police department he deals with the department's staffing needs  discipline and daily basis he's the one who's there doing the job as opposed to the police boy running or a group of citizens they're not police officers they nee the appropriate help to make a recommendation and we did and we have the superintendent and then you were representing the superintendent in the circuit court or the board in the circuit court or both of them just the superintendent and he still only represents determine a certain that the violations have been proved at the end of the hearing the end of every hearing that we prove the charges we brought and we've recommended a particular sanction and argue for a ride that's the appropriate sanction the police would then has the power to disagree with us on both impression because there's many cases where the superintendent recommends discharging the burghers rights that happens all the time and the stench of the ordinance don't contain any language that would limit the word to only going down a set of being priests but fundamentally recommendation meeting a considered suggestion there is not need an upper limit on the birth choice of penalty so i heard my colleague today say that the bill could perhaps go down but may not go up i think that that's not the plain and ordinary meaning of the word recommendation and by decision the bill sachin is described as findings and indecision and that we think inherent in the idea that they make factual findings on the violation to make a decision on the sanction is that they can disagree with us why would the superintendent if your position was a sub in this case why would the superintende the recommended in his judgment professional judgment penalty that he thinks is best for the officer in the department the morale of the whole thing why would he do that ok we'll circle responses to that so one is  in this case there would have been a possibility at the point of the separation was rejected the superintendent could have withdrawn the charges and us all authority impose a special thirty days and elected not to do so to i think the reason why the superintendent you know can trust the judgment of the ordinary mind right case is well on so in all the years that the civil service commission police board has been in existence disciplining police officers all th years one before you were born or before i was this is never happened before right to the best around knowledge you know it's pretty yeah but there's a couple of reasons why i think that's the case why it hasn't come up before this sudden if the superintendent in his best judgment were best go who says sixty days six mornings the officer now is it restored this church because the word decision of the administrative agency that we give deference to is long as they are acting within their legislative believe granted in the wheels of chords to nat to have the right to impose contravention of the superintendent's recommendation and then that decision is reviewed as to whether it's arbitrary and reasonable on relates to the needs of the service so i think it's beyond the scope of the record yes  disciplinary recommendation or action necessarily implies that they can do something other than the recommendation and i don't think it's would be an accurate reading of the plain language to say that that means the lesser action  nature of the viruses that are proven to make a determination as to what is the appropriate penalty says any action which for decision rights that me must be supported by a majority it doesn't mean they should be a quarry to make any decision they want that the hero officer asked the corporation counsel was prosecuting the case what is the superintendent's position why is this not a discharge case when we get to this level of the the peel corporation counsel brief on behalf of the superintendent he what would you say those are the same thing or different i mean the point i'm trying to make is they use the word recommendation different ways within the same statu e the first reference is to the superintendent's post sanction the second reference is to the first decision so i don't know that you or recommendation seems to me that when it's used as disciplinary right from the patient yes the superintendent in action is the board's rule so the recommendation is one thing and the action is the final result of the act the conclusion recommendation for more serious suspension and they certainly did that included but the superintendent recommends a suspension that the police for gets to turn the head into a separation