proa next case united states versus holyfield with the court's permission i'd like to request five minutes from a bottle yes i think the simplest way to decide this case is to first determine when mr holyfield was because if the officers lacked reasonable suspicion at the moment of speech or this court doesn't need to determine whether the show of force by the takedown team turned the seizure into a de facto it's black letter law goes without saying that the fourth amendment seizure takes place when an officer has in some way restrain the liberty of a citizen by means of physical force or show here we're talking about a show and the test is objective whether the officers words and actions what is conveyed to a reasonable person who is being ordered to restrict his move here we have unknown one and we know that miss harris is a black woman seated in the car she's ok you know we know that she has a drug history that's the only thing that the officers and we know the yes that i think we've moved on then to whether or not there's reasonable suspicion from the seizure and yes i agree with that i will have a lot more so he gets in the far we have a woman seated in a car for thirty to forty minutes at a gas station at the air that they're going with one of the cars right up to miss her driver side the officers from the car immediately get out of the one officer runs to the car with his gun drawn one officer runs weapon being drawn that has to be the moment of in a moment to the officers have reasonable suspicion and i think what's critical to note in this case is what's missing we don't have any evidence that this is a high crime area find out what happened in each juncture this is what happened detective having to sitting in the parking lot he sees mr harris for approximately forty five minutes in a car with the hood up making couple cell phone calls he knows that she has something some sort of a drug history or window her driver's side windows down she's doing nothing to affect any type of repair or anything to her car after approximately forty five minutes mr holyfield arrives with a passenger in his car he gets driver's window partially down he's suspicious because harris walks so or holyfield walks over doesn't look at the art doesn't talk to her yet soon after having bulges and pocket and if that's not enough we have the i'm actually not privy to that decision i do know that it was made i don't know whether it was there they perceive the jail problem or or what it was but the government did ask mr holyfield without any objection from defense counsel basically the point you made why were you there we had  nothing else was asked well and without the reasonableness without an inquiry into the reasonableness of the tip or the content of that i mean the content could have been you know i heard from from someone or weeks ago  you know that already that this woman does and we don't know who the the tipster is the tip of the you know more time lying criminal i mean without knowing any background we can't consider the  that he was broken down in the car and he was bringing lunch or or something else i mean we just have very few facts here about well anything and what was going on as the court knows innocent activity taken piece by piece may not be enough but if the officers are allowed to use their experience as narcotics officers and put these facts together someone with a drug history sitting in a car in july doing what i think about it but but the concept is reasonable force and this is i mean that's reasonable suspicion to i stopped and asked for id they kind of government activity that went on here requires probable cause does it not now i still think with reason if you let me continue with the timeline i can show you what happened next or but what happened next isn't relevant if we when we in the timeline find that the force occurred i e the cars and the gun approach when the only things that happened were sitting in the car pulling out a plastic bag that's if you assume that the cars arrived the officers got out and the gun was drawn all at the same point in time there's no finding or any evidence of any it anyplace to indicate when the gun was drawn covington said he approached with the gun drawn and he personally radioed others to come out he approached with a gun drawn and with harris sees the officers coming he tosses the bag officers one of the drivers of the gun one on on holyfield side without a right but as they enter the parking lot a k they had this information we talk about they also know they are at a public place they are dealing with of drugs which they now from their experience often means weapons they know they're dealing with someone in a vehicle they know from their experience and is that this court another court that wouldn't supreme court recognized that poses a special rest or a tyranny about the drug her drug is what but when we get to the officers pulling into this parking lot something else happens and that is harris gets out of her car she gets out of the car that's a sensibly broken down for forty minutes she doesn't continue on her path it innocently that they can operate a doesn't get out of a car on page one twenty four the record we have up there is testimony which is here's the the the question is what does she do answer as soon as we were exiting the vehicle she ran from the vehicle she was stopped later by uniformed guided which is a page one a for question you and your partners responding to what's happening in the parking lot at this point you see the bag go over and then what happened answer my partner's pulled up on the driver side of the vehicle the female miss harris she jumped out of the driver's side vehicle she took off in i mean they have to put the car to park and open the door this is all happened sign simultaneously so now they have someone who they you know let's say the reasonable explanation is the cars broken down his bringing her lunch or spark plug just plain she's running we don't know why we don't know what was in either the patches we have a suspension of drugs we have a vehicle where this person could have access to something to defend himself she could be running to get help for holyfield we don't know what's going on we've got a public place a gas station that's open you know if this point the passenger mr holyfield's parr's entered it being in store so there's other people around for the police to think there's a lot going on here and we need to be careful gunless why he came with that he's never asked why he threw his gun he's never asked when he drew his gun and there's nothing on the record to indicate that mr holyfield ever saw the gun well we have no person well says he looked around and when he saw them coming and presumably done there's nothing with any fear of any danger or any of that well that's true but that would be a subjective subjective analysis so if this point we've got him out of the car now if that point it's reasonable for the officer to have drawn a gun there's nothing in this record indicate it was ever pointed at mr holyfield he was on the passenger side of the car he had to come out of the you know his cars pulled into the driver's side of harris's arm talk about dark efforts and again when you get to the point of him coming around to the car keep in mind that there's nothing to indicate that mr holyfield ever saw this weapon and this is what's going on with all these different things going on back and forth is there a limit limit to the seizure car in approach with at least one weapon display and they cite to page one twenty four the appendix i believe the page one twenty four the appendix as i read does not support this construction of the facts and there's nothing in the records that's to support that these things happen that quickly that you would actually have them pulling into the lot getting out of the car harris getting out of art and drawing a weapon such that all these things happen in one stagnant timeline also with regard to the issue of whether or not mr reasonable given how quickly all this happened obviously we're disputing what happened when but i think we would have to agree that all happened very very quickly so the amount of time that if he's subjected to any type of show of force was very very brief to the extent that he's his right as he was sitting in the car but the issue of whether or not he was you know somehow blocked harris got up and got out you know he's got his own car there's no evidence of that car being blocked so i'm not sure where we get all these things he that it's bad grammar that's about all i can tell you but it's as soon as we exited she had and i mean how can you determine anything and since there's no fact finding i mean i think this is another one of those  innocent isn't innocent but here none of the three testifying officers ever died and those are any of those any illusions we have about what the officers were thinking at the time why we don't have any of that we don't have them saying i know from my surveillance of this station for the past five years that people buying drugs pretend that they're having car trouble but their car up and wait for forty five minutes