that one level there's a question of law but primarily what you're saying is we know what exceptional circumstances are that's a legal standard that's really not in question here it's just never even invoked the extraordinary circumstance language it applied an exceptional circumstance not once but four separate times if you characterize the task as that one involving extraordinary circumstances rather one involving exceptional sort and from my perspective that's an important thing because exceptional circumstances is a term that we have immigration law deal with on a regular basis in fact defined in the immigration and nationality act  forty one it's defined as generally circumstances that are beyond the control of an alien and that is a much more strict standard than the extraordinary story to demonstrate extraordinary sort is an alien doesn't have to demonstrate that the circumstances are beyond his or her troll he only has to demonstrate that he didn't intentionally create the circumstances by his own actions or inadvertence so in our view the board applied in correct legal passed here i mean it's strange and it's downright bizarre that the board didn't once that once invoked the extraordinary circumstance language four separate time it's not readily apparent from the plain language of the ultimate yes that's for sure but it turned exceptional circumstances as defined in the act is is it something that's beyond the control of the alien and by regulation extraordinary circumstances as i said it does not have to be the control of yeah all the dealing has to demonstrate is that he did that intentionally create the circumstance that's a much less lesser burden but anyway so the the board what i have to have a certain quality to mr demonstrated extraordinary circumstance by having been in lawful nonimmigrant status during part of his first year in the united states and the board recognized that it can be an extraordinary circumstance i can't conclude that you can't even assess whether mr power's out of hours actions were reasonable unless you consider all the circumstances surrounding those actions and the board and consider any of those in assessing whether his you're saying it isn't going to do them in the context of determining whether or not to lay in filing it's reasonable to consider them only in the context of determining whether or not those actions would constitute an exceptional on the act of extraordinary circumstance never considered whether or not those actions might render his the delay in filing reasonable now that's not a pure question of statutory construction it's more a question of telling the board i think the child was approximately nine years old at the time of the hearing for the immigration judge yes your honor child's life living here in portland this case and whether or not you have the ability to review the b i a or the immigration judge's decision with regard to the fact that it's clear one year passed so now you fall into was there extraordinary circumstances to excuse the failure to file an application for asylum within the one year limitation and that's clearly a discretionary call by the immigration authorities the immigration judge and the b i a what do you say about the sure that by reading that opinion that may be something you have to determine whether or not court used to be i used the wrong standard class i do have a question about your jurisdictional argument and i don't know if you haven't heard of you  deportation as the order and i'm going to leave out some words an administrative officer to whom the attorney general has delegated the responsibility after determining whether concludes that the alien is deportable he's considered an order of deportation just the same as one that orders deportation just by the words of it and i wonder why that those cases has decided that we will treat cases that were on appeal as petitions for review because that's what congress would have been handed what those cases explicitly mention it corpus so if in your initial stages you have to make a determination whether you're going to review this as an appeal from a vs corpus which is how treat it as timely file since their court interpretation that's actually does not apply and what i'm saying is the next step is you have to determine whether or not you're going to excuse the procedural let me see if i can and ramble what you're saying  slightly different way because i'm having trouble following it i may just be me if i understand your position brecker your view is that when this vi a decision was made in november of two thousand and three the petitioner had an opportunity  thirty days to file a petition for review with this court and fail to do that besides so presumably even if the the havey is that there and then he files behaviors petition the right know it loses it's a matter of law because it's the wrong way to have gone about it and it's too late and therefore even if we take it as timely filed here district court you agree that he would have no problem it would have been transferred and treated as family and the question is whether we treat the titians files in the court of appeals ok thank you very much i'm sorry i got a feeling that number i suspect that is an issue that needs to be addressed yes thank you for seconds left on this procedural question i hope you know i hope you will talk longer than the four seconds with the permission of our presiding judge because i don't understand the statute to have been intended to re