this is typically the meeting that the planning commission has to talk about our master plan the city started about nine months ago process to update our master plan for the city of holland the master plan has it been updated holistically since one nine hundred ninety q so we're going through a process known as resilient holland master plan in which is going to create a new vision for the city all of its neighborhoods from holland heights to the west into maplewood to the downtown neighborhoods accent or a we've had probably close to twenty public meetings focus groups you know well over three hundred people participated in it some of you were at the most recent one we had at st francis the sales church at thirteenth the maypole and we're going to be having more as we go through as part of this plane a commission meeting for our regular master planning stuff we thought to be a good opportunity to bring the planning commission you know more into the fold about the visioning that's going on for the washington school property the washington school property as everyone knows is located off maple avenue in the general area of tenth street and eleventh street on the map that you can see in front of you the school had had it for sale for you know a year or two now they part of that process we had a open house with the developers earlier this month and then we had a joint meeting with the historic district commission in the planning commission after that joint meeting it  was shared to us with some neighbors that they didn't get a chance to hear from the planning commission during that public comment period on their feelings towards this development there were a couple comments made by the historic district commission side but the planning commission was a little quiet on the whole their initial reaction and how they feel that this design and this development should unfold when we marketed or when we noticed the meeting for this evening we mentioned that there would be a new design we're not going for a new design right now what we'd like to do is really recap with the plenty commissions and says this is the regular meeting what we heard at that joint meeting and talk about some ideas that staff might have to address some of those concerns that were shared during that meeting so with that i kind of want to hit what staff felt were the three prominent themes from that joint meeting that we heard from the neighborhood and we heard from the historic mr commission then we want to talk about some opportunities that we see in here to address some of those themes and then that the planning commission talk amongst themselves some of the direction they'd like to see happen here so during that joint meeting you know there are concerns that were shared with us that there just seems to be a lot of stand alone single stall garages is there an opportunity to enclose or to place some of those parking structure there's graduates or parking spaces on the first floor that gymnasium that gymnasium one would assume is an open kind of a design most gyms are you know could you put a garage door on one side of the building and park cars in there so people still get the enclosed parking because as i'm finding out i'm one of the few people in the midwest that doesn't feel the desire or need to have a garage all my friends not only do they want to grab they want an attached garage so it is something that people are looking for when they're looking to purchase a home or even as we found out with the baker last project even if they're just renting apartments they are they want that garage feel they want to place to park their car to there not to scrape off ten inches of snow in november the other thing we heard from that during that meeting was an opportunity for a central green some kind of green yell in this area currently since this was historically a school property it was a defacto neighborhood gathering space for you know recreation purposes some of that was organized there moms could take their three year old you know toddler and throw a ball on the ground and let the kid kick it fall on the ground get back up kick it fall on the ground etc sers are away and this design issue in corporate some kind of central green that would allow that to continue a larger question has arisen and it is is the city of holland willing to take our general fund taxpayer money to put a neighborhood park here maybe a small scaled reduced sized pocket park is the terminology we like to use but is there an opportunity for us to do something along those lines here that's a question it's really for a city council level not for a play any commission level and it typically isn't something when we do development that we ask developers to develop a public park for the residents if the public wants a park in a certain area that's a city council decision that's a public decision not a private developer something that we play for us and then the third thing that we heard kind of circled around this issue and it's a typically a difficult issue to identify for difficult issue to really quantify but this issue of density when this something become too dense for an area are the western seminary townhomes on fourteenth street to dense for the residential houses on central in fourteen or do they work do they find a way to fit into that neighborhood you know mark van de vliet our senior planner myself we do talk about baker l there are some that argue that's not a neighborhood we would argue it's the prospect neighborhood we would argue that baker last project while it may not have housing on all four sides it has a very substantial residential neighborhood on two of the sides if not three of the sites and it fits in well with that neighborhood there are people who live in the single family homes that go visit friends that live in the apartments and vice versa it works well in that area the density issue sometimes talks about yele on the original design that was given to us was it appeared that it was one way n and one way out one way coming in off maple and then going out on the eleventh well working with the developer since then there are ways to reposition the parking behind the school so it's perpendicular we've been out there behind the school there is more than ample room for it to be two way most of our alleys central neighborhoods even though they are just ten to twelve feet wide pavement they operate two ways this won't be constant traffic going behind here so they can work they are redesign these are parking spaces to the south of the building so people could back out and head out towards maple avenue and there now always forced towards the cul de sac or eleventh street and then the issue and so those are the three most prominent kind of issues since then staff has been beating with a developer we've been chewing on this you know trying to strike a balance find you know a good common middle ground that's going to improve this neighborhood and no one has or improve that's going to continue to add value to this neighborhood while at the same time repurpose this building in such a way that will introduce you know other people to our city which is a goal  of most of the master plans that we've read in the past and it's probably going to become a goal you know and the update of our new master plan earlier this year the city finished our target market analysis which was a partnership with  michigan state housing development authority they looked at the city of holland they looked at our current housing market they looked at you know segments of populations that would find holland an attractive place and one of the changing the world is changing there is a growing segment of young urban professionals who want to live adjacent to downtown holland they don't want their own home with their own garage with their own yard to maintain it's called this missing middle is the terminology that's been used by housing professionals you know in our state and it's something that the state of michigan has really gotten wrong since about one thousand nine hundred fifty s were other states in the urban areas adjacent to thriving downtowns supported downtowns with attached housing whether it be urban flats which is what the school building will you know resembles or attached town homes slash brownstones slash mark and mark danner policeman i refer to as just attached single family one door to one unit you have a shared common the wall we've really kind of missed that boat through the fifty's sixty's and seventy's and developing downtown holland and we're trying to get in front of it now in the two thousands we look at projects like scrap  laughs fall with a waiting list downtown place is now full central park which was built during the housing crash now has people going there so we do see a need for some of the housing that was shown in the original plan this attach townhome kind of style housing we think is important and we think is in this city and our neighborhoods and we don't have many green spaces where we could put those in their cell and we've got the density we see some opportunities here the idea of and some of just work my way back through some of those items that was shared during that joint meeting the idea of a green space we've talked to the developers we see an opportunity if working with the city of doing some kind of green space and i know it doesn't show up on the screen or moving my mouse but we could probably easily fit in a green space that's about ninety feet wide seventy feet long at the end of the eleventh street called a stack so ninety feet to give you some visualization that's first base the second base seventy feet mound to home plate on a major league baseball field so when you talk pocket park when you talk about a mom taking a toddler who's three or four years old and kicking that ball around that's a perfect place for those kids to go just run around for a little bit to get the energy out if they're looking for a larger area to go sprint an extra two three hundred feet collin park is really just a true short block walk and the city of holland already invested close to forty five thousand dollars to reduce and make that intersects creek intersection crossing that tenth of vandross safer for the neighborhood kids to get to a larger expanse of green space to run so we see an opportunity to do that kind of central green you know and the you know at the end of eleventh street the garage issue that's a tough nut to crack as i mentioned earlier we have seen that the that this new generation of home buyers really want a place to put their vehicle they want that in close they want to out of the snow it's one of the you know some urban sociologists are saying it's what it's one of the causes of white flight that happened in our downtown neighborhoods in our central city neighborhoods one of the reasons why people you know bought into urban sprawl and left the cities to move out to the subdivisions was this idea of i have a garage now i have a place i can park my car and if it's attached that's a bonus so talking with the developers there might be an opportunity and i think it was council member peters you brought it up during the public meeting there might be an opportunity to fit twelve or so you know spaces you know vehicle spaces and that first floor of that gym so there could be an opportunity to do that along eleventh street here so if we can get twelve of them in here we can lose what we see here on a stand alone garages on the eleventh here on the south side eleventh and maybe do a couple of duplexes if we lose one or two units maybe  this ability so there are some opportunities here to find this common ground and the those are really staffed responses to those three things we heard from that joint meeting as mentioned the school has a contract with the developer the developers going through the process that public meeting was just three weeks ago it is november and as i've only been in holland for fifteen years but wow november december is a really busy holiday time for families and churches and all that other stuff that goes on in our lives around this time of year so the pl commission your opportunity for tonight is really you know you kind of got staff response to the initial plan you got staffs response to where we think we can go we're about ninety five percent supportive of what we're seeing on the screen and by supportive i mean we're excited to see what's coming to us on the screen there's just a few tweaks that we think need to happen here and there that we think we could make this a really great project for both the neighborhood and for the city as a whole and the questions what you're saying though in general is that on the screen there are a few changes that are being talked about correct very much so i'm glad you picked that up staff is in constant dialogue with the developers as we're trying to yes like i said make those tweaks make those massages this was the original plan that was submitted that was shared at the open house at the school as well as that was shared during the joint discussion is the staff completely supportive of the number of  i mean i just want to see reply when eyes again remember exactly where they work so in inside a school they're at thirty four units townhomes got them to forty six and yeah and this is a discussion we've had with some neighbors there's this in disagreement between some of the neighbors and staffs opinion but when we look at this development and when we look at you know what we can what we believe to be you know similar types developments this is a density level that you know staff is you know comfortable with now when you look at the placement of the graduates if we have to you know some of the things are going for is on a level we want to see from porches so if there's you lose a couple graduates here they might have to lose a couple units and side here because they have shared with us they really need one garage for every unit is kind of you know the motto and that's it motto that we can agree to a piece part can just add to is this mike word you know we've got to keep in mind enjoy all i apologize i wasn't here for the you're opening remarks we don't have a formal application yet from the developers ok so we're we're doing a lot of work doing more work i mean ever work for the city for twenty years and i don't remember doing this much advance work with the developer on any project before they officially came in the door and said ok we know we officially want to do something ok so i would agree with joel that you know in staffs opinion i think that the number of dwelling units are are very much in the ballpark i mean can we say you know forty four forty five is the exact number i would want to put my stamp down but i think that it's it's in the ballpark for a in official requests that then can come to the planning commission for your official review at that time so i and i'll just just with joy also i think that the general layout that's in front of the screen that you that everybody see and right now in staffs opinion i think that this is a type of an urban form that would play very well i think that there's probably a very late demand for this type of  housing in in this part of the city i got to believe there are people and a lot of people in the historic district that would probably love even though they love their neighborhood and they don't want to move from up but they're in a big house and they they want maybe something else and this is probably a product they would love to get into so i think there's demand for know obviously there's there's many reviews and and you know planning commission historic district commission city council is all going to be a  part of the approval process and each group is going to be looking at different aspects but personally i think that this this plan here in some variations on it is is a wonderful thing to to start off and get going the time i'll be moving on to the planning commission question and answer and then public comment correct correct ok planning commission discussion do we know how many units are on the first floor  you made the first floor of the gym parking you'd basically end up probably losing four units so instead of thirty four down the thirty within the building you go from eight to four just in the gymnasium area right now without putting our finger on an exact number it's the ballpark well that's that's really easy it's you know it's what's a ballpark i understand the analogy but that's the thing we always look at planning commission what density is the correct density put a number on it i am more in favor of utilizing one hundred percent of that school building for units rather than parking and then have a conversation on the reality of people wanting to park i don't know what you going to do about that because i have a passing familiarity with putting parking inside of buildings and it ain't easy and it's not cheap  and for gain or for a ballpark of saying that six units is now out of the ballpark for that situation i'm not  and i think become and i mean at the meeting before was i look at the massing of the townhomes on the streets on both the tenth and maple i think that a play last probably a unit maybe two but i don't think so on tenth and made those into single family looking town homes or duplexes they have a really great product here but and i also don't quite understand the green space of the city thought that we needed green space there why didn't we put an offer in on something when the school had it up for sale it's not in the parks master plan right kind of offer and i and i greatly sympathize with the neighbors we i live three blocks away from the roll to school and when they elected to take away half the playground for parking and building we weren't real enthused about it but the building wasn't for sale one of it was of us at the big enough truck book to do anything about it so i don't know how much more you can expect from the developer i think there are some issues of mashing we can talk about i don't think you know you're basically saying that to get this down to an acceptable density is to lose six units out of the whole program so don't sign you know i don't get it well what we are seeing from staff one of the plenty principles that we have and something that's in the master plan it's been in the city of holland for a very long time his front porch is face  treats and the stand alone garage is a long eleven the southern side is the area where we struggle is plenty as planning staff to be i'll go with garages in that general area and not talent and not some kind of town home or duplex or single family lot an option would be if you could put parking in the gym you would reduce the need for those graduates just to the east of that building you have to pay any commission the same from a design perspective we don't see much of an issue with the other grudges to the east of that building that is something staff you don't have to respond to and accommodate during our review and approval process with you but that's why we are going with parking in the  was eliminating trying to find a way to remove those grudges off the south side of eleventh street it was a question the garages are that's not i mean if there was just a parking lot there with no rogers on it you're still not happy right correct ok so you want to see some form of development that has a face to it on that on that street and that on that south side of eleven street there's an opportunity now to have residential structures facing residential structures this was a church and that was a parking lot would be having the same conversation if a church purchased the school building and i wanted to put a parking lot in that general area i don't know i don't try not to answer hypothetical questions well this whole thing is hypothetical we don't have an application from ye i haven't seen a citation for that so i can't respond to that one here yes sorry i might not now but i have a question that i think i e mailed mark about and i wondered what this piece of property is proposed to be what color it is in our new resilience my master plan what are the plans this is the historic small narrative section that talks about this and talks about the redemptive use so you know older buildings like this that are in an established urban neighborhood and you know and then question number two would be if that gymnasium was used for parking you still have the issue unless i'm not seeing a proper way saw me understand this you still the issue of no front porch is facing a lot in street because of the gymnasium am i correct in that so the idea would be if the gymnasium first floor can be used as parking these blue boxes are right now these are single stall garages so just to the east just to the right of the gymnasium on the drawing these are single storey single stall garages many of those are eight plus i think you're about sixteen maybe based off my quick count with my ball it looks like four four and eight so eight hundred sixteen so if sixteen you would need twelve parking spaces that could go in this gym probably and then you could do two duplexes right here but then my question is and the duplexes would face eleven slight but part of that front porches right that's an existing condition correct ok so i guess i'm trying to figure out why we're accommodating a couple of plots for front porches and not all the way to the end of the lot i mean why are we making the developer change the plans i'm trying to understand again going back to the joint meeting there were three really common things and we went through the minutes it was too many standalone garages you know nowhere in the historic district or in this neighborhood do you have a row of garages there is the comment that meeting planning staff has been talking with a developer trying to see how can we accommodate you know those three common things you know is there a middle ground a happy ground that we can all kind of you know get to to make sure we have a project that is beneficial for the neighborhood and the city at large as well as one that will work with the developer in our ultimate city goals i'm sure another question ye of the non covered parking spaces are those for visitors are they for residents and addition to the cover i believe those were going to be considered first come first serve parking spaces so we're not really limit complex abutting the residential property we don't see a problem with that than any other questions comments i had just not so there are plenty of time for public comment if that was changed with those garages disappearing right as mark mentioned we've yet received an actual so i mean whatever the new design would look like there be a lot of time for people to comment madam chair yes i get another question regarding duplexes in this neighborhood because it is part of it is in the historical neighborhood are there duplexes yes in that neighborhood ok all i'm really concerned about is the building mass on those two streets and i think that that's easily fixed i not see an effect good for the bell appears ok with changing all that parking around and thinks they can get another duplex on that street that makes up for it i'm ok with that i think the question of density is kind of a red herring because i don't think six or eight on forty in this location makes a heck of a difference can i say clarifying question when you say those two streets even maple avenue intent street yes ok thank you those are where the common houses are one other question there's been a lot of discussion but neighborhood folks i think some of them well they might speak to the question of there being a lot of rentals is that something that the planning commission has an opinion one way or another well if there is a way that we can say no rentals i'd like to address that in other areas of the city yet i don't think it was the question mark well i don't have a problem i mean these are not by any stretch of imagination inexpensive for what they represented last time you know i forgive me if i'm wrong but we're going to nine hundred bucks for a single bedroom ok that's i can tell you who can afford that and that's people with middle management job or higher end jobs and various companies around here so if the concern is transients  than the qualification that they're vertical so i don't i don't see it as a as an issue and i don't know how you're going to say yes those need to be saigon to many  do that in the future because it makes my actual sense but you've got you're going to have to show me we're under the and they're going that we have some ability to say no you can't rent in that structure and i don't believe that we do have that i was just trying to get some indication from you one way or another i know that in the past we do it have had developments were you know a developer has basically offered to say you know we're not going to have rentals in this development or what kept them at it at a certain amount to remember we did that with the villas of holland and that was probably perfectly fine because that was what they were going to build anyways but i personally think that rentals  probably a good thing to have in this area i'm just i'm just going to bring it up but that is going to be an issue i should say is going to be it is an issue from what i've been hearing talking with people and they're they're scared with what they believe the very large number of rentals that's going to be put right in the middle of a single family neighborhood so just reason that any other questions or comments from commission members i think i said this in the last meeting i think there's a need for rentals i think marvin is right i mean we're talking higher and apartments we're talking young professionals who like teachers social workers i mean they're making anywhere from thirty to forty thousand a year i don't know how many people would be able to afford one thousand nine hundred dollars a month i think the density is a little high in the town homes we could definitely go down maybe from five to four on eleven maybe from three or from four to three on maple i think the green space is necessary even bigger loss has an patio area that is enclosed that all the residents have access to and can use for birthday parties or barbeques family get togethers i don't have an issue with the covered parking i think that a lot of  thirty's forty's they they want to go and i think that that part is necessary as well any other comments or questions and then we'll open it up to public comment if not garages on the eleventh would be my front view and i personally am fine with that garages are not the ugliest thing i've ever seen in this city a couple coverage sponsors to what i've heard here today mr martin commented that the parks department didn't make an offer on this property and i think that honestly was a mess on their part i think that they didn't realize what they needed to preserve and i think taking assuming that because the parks department didn't offer it means that it isn't needed is is a bad conclusion also the mr martin's comments concerning if a church wanted to put a parking lot there would we be having this same outcry and i view that as a completely different level of use  you know your typical church level of use is going to be heavy one day a week sparse the other days of the week and you know and therefore a lower level of activity overall for the neighbors when it's residents full time parking that's a completely different level of traffic coming and going so that's why i think there's a lot more scrutiny to this kind of parking and there is to some other sort of use of that property and the parking that would go along with it and then  density in the green space that all of the neighbors are pumping their fists in the air about and whaling about is i think two issues that go hand in hand i think as density goes down then green space is an opportunity and i don't think that only the current residents need green space i think the residents that are going to move into this development need green space i was the sort of gal who would have loved to rent an apartment in a place like this when i wasn't yet married and didn't have some kids but i would have wanted to have a barbecue that i could host a party at i would have wanted a place where i could lay out a chair in the summer and catch some rays so to have absolutely no space in a development that i am looking at moving into i think is a is puts the development and its marketability at risk in addition to making our quality of life in the core city less rob you if i might clarify two things the my comment about the church was not relative to the activity as a question of whether or not there was a significant of a parking lot or parking lot with  was my point to yeah the city did make an offer for green space because my point was it's not in the parks master plan and i can almost guarantee that with one hundred percent certainty that we wouldn't master plan to put a pocket park in two blocks away from a major my name's tim stall i live at ninety nine west eleventh i'm just going to ask the question seems parking and green space being two of the major concerns is there a thought gone into combining the two by doing an underground parking with a park on top or a parking with a single structure type of parking with green space on the roof i think you that staff had mentioned first some comparison property so the townhomes for western sounds are clearly an educational zone this is a traditional residential neighborhoods there's a pretty big distinction there the baker l building previously zoned industrial not surrounded in attritional residential neighborhood also adjacent to a very large one of the larger city parks and prospect park the third thing and i certainly agree with this the need for some new housing the attached housing i can see where the market analysis is asking for that and i guess i'm thinking if i'm a planner from looking at this is the best place to do that in one of the most successful neighborhoods in terms of property valuable property value in terms of how quick homes are turning over and selling is that the best place to have what admittedly is is somewhat of an experiment you know are there other properties where perhaps it's not as set in stone that if this was more of a single family things would do just fine there may be other opportunities or locations to do some of this housing and maybe even just looking within the slot is there a difference between what's going on on tenth street versus what's going on eleven street excuse me and mabel right there you have to have that removed as a park area and for that would it be a possibility for the historic district or city to do a fundraiser where we would be able to possibly purchase that property and then have to return it to the city for maintenance and then the row homes which are on t can those turned to single family residence is also one of my concerns as i had mentioned in the first meeting is if the ro car customized if they're able to do basements and they just had and how uncertain i can reference last week or the week before i was going to bring today about the percentage of people twenty five and older that are living with their parents now which was phenomenal so people are doing customized properties like the row homes they could actually ask the developer to please have a mother in law quarters made her apartment style for the basement which would increase possibly the density that much more because now you have people living in a basement as an apartment and then a family living on the main level or you know first and second level of a home so i think that's one of things we need to look at too is our basements going to be made to increase the density for additional housing that's not on plan right now and i think that the garage spaces where the tennis courts are right now is a a wonderful idea along with having additional parking and side i know a lot of people would pay the extra money for either to utilize those garages as storage space or just to have their second car i'm referring to the rental situation there is a house on our block on eleventh street and from what i understand they're paying well over a thousand dollars and they do not have teaching jobs and other jobs they're getting a premium and as long as the bill is being paid they don't care so it is a very transit house so as far as rentals i think there's a number of people sent on eleventh street from washington to maple there are twenty three kids that is just one street twenty three kids that is a lot of families are going to be concerned about their young children if these properties have a to run also with people coming and going thank you thank they're coming in with it but it's not to say that people won't conform i mean you know as well as i do that there's a number of properties probably even here in holland that don't have the runnel certificates that just say hey you go ahead live and live in my basement you know that i'm just saying that that well you would hope that you know people would follow the rules but we both know that people dollars so early when i just want to address the runnel situation and see if that park option was an availability do a fundraiser have the city come back and take it over and remove the townhouses from maple street and single family homes on a tenth in order to keep the consistency of the area it almost seems like it's functionally obsolete if you just like are putting in these homes with single family or single stall garages and just changing of the whole dynamics of the neighborhood and i think that offering single family homes would allow that charm that everybody has come to know love and appreciate and is willing to pay for because it's not cookie cutter stamp one style thank you twelve that identified washington school neighbors as the neighborhood that whacked adequate sports facilities within walking distance i think that really shows that we need green space and adequate green space  who lives in grand rapids and they have a neighborhood park that is funded by a neighborhood milage tax so it's a public park but the tax revenue takes care of maintenance on care so i just hope that we'd be open to something like public comment is still open and nancy stall i live on the corner of eleventh and pine and we have like a huge street lamp that is a major light pollution so i am wondering about the parking lots will need lights for the safety of the new residents but i'm wondering about lighting nobody's talked about that how can we make sure there's not light pollution happening in our neighborhood thank you so that would be something that would come in the application correct or mark this is your micro card there you go that that's a standard detail that will come in with the generally not to and i think in a situation like this if you've got grudges i i would forsee some nice lights on the front of the garage residential type lighting i mean i would perceive any need to have a parking lots lit up by  big overhead lights thanks hi tom volcom i'm at three o three maple avenue you talk about the parking and i guess not so much the parking but having to do with the traffic with that kind of density the density concerns me because the traffic in the neighborhood and you start getting a lot of cars i think when i talk to when they had their first meeting at washington school i think that normally in this in this sort of acreage they would put up maybe ten or twelve houses when you think of the number of cars and the traffic that's going to be on eleventh and twelfth and maple and pine and moving in and out of there it's going to be a lot the next thing has to do with the price i just did a little bit of a survey this week looking at some of the sort of garden variety places up on the north side that run anywhere from nine hundred to eleven hundred twelve hundred dollars high percentage of section eight and i don't know if the developers or their leasing agents are planning on doing that but they have a lot of transit and it can be a problem and i think it was it jol when you were talking about joel earlier today talked about the sort of the guiding principles of the not just this but the master plan i've lived in holland all my life and i think back and know you know sixty's what holland could have been i think it would have been a lot different things that i don't hear are things like upscale high end luxury if the developers have come in with something like that i would have been a lot happier so that's my comment thank you my name is david van he sed and i live at one o seven last eleven saint i live right on the corner of pine and eleventh i have a wonderful garden out there and every talks about when i'm working in my garden because of the wisdom of the city to make southbound on river one lane that makes pine southbound i will watch and twenty cars will go down pine to downriver now if those cars are are from all this perhaps it is going to get down pine hard to get out of there i'm not getting out of my driveway they'll be so much traffic on that called a sack so this is going to be done what they should do is take the call the second out and i hate to say that because i love the call of the sack but it's going to create a lot of traffic for those who people live near the end of the block right at pine it's your takes me forever to wait for all the traffic to clear and they're not going to twenty five miles an hour so even in between when i can cross or somebody can see a green light so they're just tearing to get down to that green light  and i just take your hands in your now wear your life in your hands when you're trying to cross a street there's sometimes because traffic is just so heavy that any more traffic would even make it worse thanks thank you picture about and i know the developer wants to maximize the value of the property by you know having as many units as possible on the property and the residents want to maximize the value of their property by  you know i guess reducing the density of the property and maintaining greenspace and so forth and i know this i would guess that the city's best interest is to try to do you know reach the compromise between those two points of view so you know that i think the city wants to be able to maximize the value of the whole neighborhood so that includes the poppy that we're talking about and includes the the neighbors  around so i think i think it's a good to basically live look at all sides and i think what the the the neighbors and the residents saying that they want to have a lower density as up for sale mentally you want to get the best value for that property but we want the things you know in the neighborhood that attracted us to the neighborhood to to still be there and i think that's very well but basically  ma'am another one nineteen west eleventh street also across the street from where the tennis courts are right now this is a couple quick comments first of all thank you for listening to some of the comments you made earlier i think that the idea of using the gymnasium as part of a parking and then putting some duplex there would be beneficial for the you know the look and the sense of of eleventh street there i agree with the comments about the green space and a little disappointed that the o regarding density have really been addressed at all i think i was hoping perhaps i was misinformed by notice that the developer to have more of a proposal arise proposal clearly we're all sitting here looking at the same pictures talking about the same design to the extent that's possible that this could actually we could have a revised proposal and something a little more substantially different to look at discuss  because you could be setting up here because so many might appoint you and you've been you know like me so you got to come up with a number in your head and what your basis for doing that i'm not trying to be argumentative it's something we deal with all the time in this neighborhood what's the number to me it seems like the number of the roller units or quite excessive and it seems like you could you could do something perhaps you could have a number is it's based on the inputs into the model so i understand that my question to you as as a neighbor living there with all the traffic that's going through from this there is a number somewhere that says regardless of the price of the units regardless of whether they make money or not what's an acceptable number of units what how dense can this area be if they bought this place for a dollar they could have a different structure absolutely right  whole area you could you could start that would be a good starting place absolutely ok so you start there and then you say ok what are we going to how do we kind of operate that the proposal right now the density is extremely high versus the neighborhood in versus around the area and part of the problem is that they you know they want to use the when they described earlier they want to use the classrooms as a unit that's right there there is trying to solve their equation and they've kind of looked at it instead of cable that we're going to we have these constraints we don't want to spend a whole lot of money to kind of redo the inside of this or we're going to jam all these units in there that's all they're concerned about is how much when they can make up for this you have to be concerned about how this fits into the overall part of the city and the units should be reflective of this running  ok so you ask me for a number i have no idea what the number is it should be lower than what we have right now and we shouldn't be concerned about them or their billing to make money on this or not well if i wanted to save them money i would say that they needed to have one unit prime minister i think quite frankly i mean these are upstanding gentleman i don't know any of the personally but i'm not too concerned about where i'm not trying to solve their financial equation here they're trying to make money off of this which is fair enough i'm a businessman i don't have problem with making money off it but i think we should not be bending over backwards to make sure it works for that we should make sure that this works for the whole community for all of us and for them and it seems like right now what's going on that's not we're very concerned about make it work for them not for the neighborhood and not for the residents of the neighborhood i go back to my question i have to go back to them and say hey this doesn't work at forty three give me a plan that works so i don't have your job i'm not doing what you're doing you ask me for a number of units i can tell you the number of units i can tell you i think it should be reflective of the surrounding area and so they need to use that number and they'd be back into that you can give th dwelling unit density i think that actually is a good way to answer this obviously this block is going to be more dense in surrounding blocks because of that school building and if you look at it and project it bring that data with you but it should be on record from last meeting as i did that i thought boy if this block winds up one hundred fifty percent and i say block i mean the two bucks a compass in this property if it winds up at one hundred fifty percent of the density of the adjacent two blocks south of maple which are very comparable blocks in terms of housing size density reynolds i think that would be a fair compromise if you look at the number of units they have proposed right now i think they knocked it down by about eight units that seem like a reasonable number again that should be on record but i think the drawing you don't see went up by a hundred eighty to one hundred ninety percent as compared to the adjacent to boxer very good comparison so that's where i think is a fair place sr it's a good number yeah brian davis here i think yes you know there's one piece of the equation that i think is really important that may be has been messed and it came up in the meeting last time that there were no better for this property not and so i mean i understand the importance of working through the density issues in the park and everything else that's been described public schools absolutely needs to maximize the amount of money they can get in this sale because they've got a fairly significant deficit it could very well be that at some point we get to the point where we get to a point with the developers where they say forget it we don't we're not going to do it and they walk away and we're back to no bids for the property so there has to be happy median of trying to accommodate the bidders for the property and what the neighborhood wants as well and i think that that that piece of the equation can get lost in the discussion of what everybody would like to see happen here i just think it's important to remember that there's one better and if they bow wow down public schools isn't a real mess j peters one twenty five west eleventh street listening very closely to discussion appreciate what we're doing here taking all their time to have this discussion because this is a very unique piece of property we don't have stuff like this in the city as an elected official in ohio and it's my job to make sure that we do things not only for my ward but for the city how and in total i mean that's why we're elected to make sure we do this i've heard these comments from the school board talking about the importance of selling this property  and how that is somehow filtering into this decision making process i would say this the school board has elected officials whose job it is is to manage school board and to make sure they dispose of their properties as best they to suggest that we should rush into this project to give what i'm hearing how in public schools one more year of solvency would be foolhardy i don't agree with that come i think that that school district issues have to stand on their own this property development has to stand on its rules will thank you yes i just have a comment having lived in a different neighborhood with a similar situation with a piece of vacant property and as you know we listen to everybody's comments and t thank you so much for your comments about the schools because our school district needs to be healthy in order for all of us to be healthy and yes they have a different elected school board but as a neighbor if i lived in that neighborhood i live out in holland heights the country club was vacant for i think eight years and it and i would hate to see that happen to washington elementary school where it's at right now is probably a time that it's going to cost the developer a glass than if we wait eight years for a proposal and in the meantime they'll be police calls out there because that's what happened in the country club i would get calls at home and people would complain to me about what was going on in that country club parking lot you don't want to have those issues bacon piece of property and so i think that for the betterment of the inter community to see what that can be developed into is the direction we need to head thank you and that's a good point and public comment is still open you can come to the podium and herschel capers from seventy five west thirty third street and i own a four unit apartment on the corner of maple and ten and i really don't whatever you do is not going to affect that property that much i'm not concerned i'm more concerned for the city of our own and there's nobody here that's talk that lives on ten street but if you can imagine going down the street on ten street and looking  at medium size outs then all of a sudden you see some boxes standing there with a high density i think it's a very high density and nobody has really spoke too much to except  martin about the density of that what's on that street and i'm just concerned about the city hall in terms of how the whole thing looks as i said doesn't affect my my property really that much but i am concerned about the whole density i think you figure the number of cars tense trees very busy and so is pine there's a lot of traffic there and if we had another hundred thirty cars come in and out or whatever the number is going to be it's going to affect the whole neighborhood it will affect the town and we can talk all about you know the modern things and townhouses and all this type of thing but i really think that single family ownership history would be a better way to go it may not be as profitable but i think it would be better for the city thank you just for clarification ten street would be ownership correct joel does not authorize or grant the planning commission the authority to dictate tenet c so you can't dictate if it's owner occupied or rentals so they're shown as town homes they could be rented good to see her he set up here for quite a while questions ok joel do want to do any more planning commission discussion or show you have a study session chock full of master plan discussion got her in the corner so it's up to you ok does anybody have any questions or comments from the planning commission all right i appreciate everyone coming tonight again and just coming forward with your comments and questions from the developers we appreciate that and we we want it so have a great evening walk home safely because you probably all live that close to take care and motion for a