sponsor protect and register either a commercial or a domestic breed of animal shelter before you can you may ask what you joint activity itself be legal and i'm tainted process so that if the jr g c a in the process of agreeing to affiliate the member clubs demands against a competitor in this case the competitor of the jr team ca it's important to remember as well the concerted activity here extends beyond the senior charities to the affiliate clubs it starts with a club called the j r t c g d the great britain club which is the original promoter of the exclusion of kennel club registration then it picks up the clubs but to the members because the charity ca not only requires the individual of billy clubs to observe the boycott up to and including some very tough ways of dealing with people who who have resigned or are or are expelled from the charities but requires the members to observe the same boycott and if you look at the testimony here of the people who testified who were boycotted who ended up on the black dogs which are now not because they don't meet the breed standard but simply because they're being boycotted for dealing with the k c who bring their dogs in attempt to show them that was our problem or attempt to breed them or sell their dogs and they testified uniformly they were cut off for the members to participate in this as well now i don't i don't think there are any circumstances in which a boycott between a club undercover cop or well theory could be deemed to be a unitary organization members don't belong to a club and consequently if the members are also forced to observe the boycott i the federal court system in any circuit that have applied or just cause the application of copper well to  i think the direct answer is no there have been discussions of what kind of activity one of these registration clubs can engage in and a copper weld you have and i don't think either side has found a direct case that says copper the real issue it seems to me as posed by the generic c c de is apart from the unitary organization principle if we feel strongly enough that the protection of the dog or any other animal and then the other breed association will be diminished seriously by the registration with the kennel club what are the limits of economic activity that we are title to participating in order to thwart that recognition in this case by the ac and punish our members or do registration of the dog we can't complain that the dog's not the same the dog is the same dog that was registered by the charity seeing it meets the breed standard and in a couple of cases at trial you see that the dog in question was a champion jeric you see a dog so it's not the dog that's being protected what's the source of the boycott is the belief that the a case of me has an invariable effect no matter what it's a breed standard in dumbing down the dog that's to put  plainly as possible that's really the believe that there are t n c really shares that belief there was no struggle at all against the breed standard and if you read if you read the j r c ca's brief they quote at length of the things that we said to try to demonstrate to the mother club that we were not trying to abandon the protection that the mother club was attempting to offer the dogs what was appalling to us and were the legal implications of doing this and when we were threatened with suit by the first two of these breeders we went to the charity scene as you can see in the record and said you know we're here on the front line trying to administer your policy and were threatened with a suit by two of these people who own j r t c a dogs so you can't claim there's anything wrong with the dog and who demand admission to our club because they have these conforming dogs from what you had was basically two clubs each with national and with local affiliates and they have different philosophies of what exact russell and if i understand it right the jack russell terrier network and its affiliates think that a proper jack russell terrier is defined pretty much by behavioral characteristics and you can't tell for a while after they're born and the kennel club of america thinks that jack russell terrier is defined by appearance and size and  who the sire and dam are or siren bitch how are they they put it and that it seems like you can't have a conspiracy between the national american kennel club and its member organizations and it seems like a legitimate reason for them to preserve their own reading standards and if i have this philosophical disagreement boycotting each other we're close to a major problem that the parties don't quite line up in the way you described it out there are not for me it's easy for me to mix them up because there are a lot of cases and they all sound alike on the  i have a breed standard that this material really different one from the other it's not what the dog should look like ultimately there's a little bit of height variation and how big they think the dog got to be the at birth of voids the opportunity to determine later if you wait for a while as the j r c ca does whether the dog turns out to be what it should be simply by virtue of the fact that it's born of two parents that have been registered by the organization that the case the presumes that if it's registered the parents that the the  clubs and the members to shun them and i know you've seen the very hard language that judge where used against the jr if he forgets them necessarily terrorists if you show your dog with the network clogs then at you've lost your ability to register them with the american kennel club something that you know the american kennel club serves no such effort to squelch competition you can register your dog with the a k c and show a k c after it's been registered with the jr t ca and is entitle to be shown there but if you do your membership in the g r t c is terminated without notice or individual breeders who can't get enough people to deal with them even on the merits of their animals to to breed the dogs and sell the puppies and go on in the commerce of which they're a part  believe so when the activity that you're senator around requires you to suit you know involve yourself in a commercial boycott i think it's just the same as if g e had a fan club and said believes the first amendment expression of organization doctrine protects those cases are clearly limited by the doctrine that when you begin to invite a commercial boycott you step beyond the legitimate  geography that you can have a parade and carry signs that say we don't like the a k c the a casey is bad for dogs you can do all kinds of things that imply an urge not to wait for nice but when you directly go after individual customers who you know to have good dogs who have met your own standards and attacked them because they've gone to the that we thought maybe the district court lost its way just a little bit there because the lanham act does in the ninth circuit does not require that the plaintiff be a direct competitor of the defen but that the activity involved being within the zone of competition and the best example of that was the case of the of the singer wait who got into a dispute with frito lay because they did  your names from the show up on the blacklist and just ask around to see what impact that will have on your camel you'll be ruined we've done it to others before and will do it again i can't imagine that fall within american fanclub and its local affiliates are treated as one organization so that they can't conspire with each other then we never get to the boycott issue because general over could regard those as a unit ferry organization that stirred to do that however you have to get around the fact that the boycott really starts in great britain and is practiced not only by affiliates of the charity cia but its members for that's that's the rub really and we sympathize with that and the only problem ultimately about all of this is if you admit the dogs to your dog trials which is really in large part with this is all about the dog trials themselves have a continual process called the confirmation process prowling confirmation and ok if you go to a go across you'll find a number of things are going on a crowd a dog trial is a gathering one of the first things that happens at that dog show is there's a call a confirmation proceeding that takes the dogs and measures them for whether they meet the breed standard which best meet the breed standard and s therefore be called champion goings so here in every one of these trials you have an immediate contest to see whether the dogs that are competing against each other are exemplar members of the breed going to be the ruin of this breed you'll find out and you'll have a basis in the confirmation trial to notice and then it becomes a public competition which demonstrates that you were right from the beginning to theory that the differences between the a case the view of the jack russell terrier and the j r c ca view of the jack russell terrier there are so fundamental that i'm standing here in front of you there's a fundamental this case has been pending for a number of  of these dogs in the field we think of in this field dogs and right along we view the case he is running show where you walk around well paid handlers and you put them on tables and you are trying to breed you are trying to standardize you're trying to find the perfect specimen of the breed and they're breed standard is different and permits them to do that to us to j r c say that's frankenstein we don't want that we think  that's for the breed we think it's irrevocably harmful to the breed and the expert testimony this case establishes that it is harmful to the breed and so that's why we're here a little bit about my club or my client it's a nonprofit educational organization a so called one zero three c seven it has no employee s all its officers are volunteers what it does have is a message and it message is right or wrong the kennel club recognition for any parade is the ruination of the breed and it was a lot of heaven that was put before a judge where below on that point and what has happened other breeds after they were recognized by a kennel club a fox terrier being such an example a fox terrier named after initially its ability to go actually chase a fox today fox terriers couldn't find a fox and the mechanism for that we use to assure that our members in our affiliates in our readers and our judges are committed to our viewpoint is the is a membership will which has been called exhibit p which says in very bold letters with our constitution on the reverse that if you want to join us we are anti kennel club recognition and you are not welcome if you have a dog that's registered with the kennel club or you are participating in kennel club activities and we believe fervently that you have to keep a bright line between those two approaches or share our beliefs and our viewpoints i mean there's just no reason to join us or to form an affiliate club with us if you don't a poor kennel club recognition and we established to the satisfaction  islamic christianity or something but i don't understand core beliefs about a breed of dog what are they fighting about well the first question was asked me when i got this case was did i own a dog and i said no and the clients that's probably good supposed to put weights on the ears you're not supposed to put weights on it years i don't know what they're talking about i don't care dogs here if you're fine and is it something like that like one club says you're supposed to put weight on their ears and the other one s weights on their ears well in a fashion i'm confident that you've registered your dogs with the a k c because i can't imagine how weights on the ears is going to improve the working out instincts or abilities of your  dogs and it's just i guess a different it's a different viewpoint another point i'd like to make so it's not lost in the shuffle is will take these people back it is one of these clubs one that focuses on appearance and does things like weight on the years yes the cas american kennel club as mr mr rocker told you when you register your dog with the american kennel club the only thing that you are being assured of is that its parents were both also casey american kennel club registered it's not a validation of the quality of the dog the health of the dog we look at registration entirely differently we will not we will not permit a dog to be register until it's one year old and then we want pictures and we want to vet certificate as to the to the health of the dog we are and we're speaking of sense in that i mean if we're really in this for the money if this is really driven by economics why why don't we do it the a k c way register them immediately when they're born when people are excited to have the new puppy and all the people work is right there in the breeder we won't even take we're waiting a year for the dog to develop and for the proper submissions to be made to us before we put it in our registry  no there are people in a case the readers american kennel club readers really don't want to have much to do with e j are they really do view this as two different docs we're actually going to have product differentiation in the j r t c a world and in a matter in a short period of time they have renamed their dog they don't want to call it a jack russell terrier anymore when you turn on the westminster in a couple months it'll be the person russell terrier for the express purpose of think wishing it from the dog that we like the big deal is i would say diversity you know we're are and one aspect of the breed standard that might help the court would be the back just for a moment to my preliminary question we take your conflicting organization rule one of the purposes of that rule that your client think legitimate or necessary for its existence and what are the anti competitive impa not the whole hunting picture you need a jack russell terrier because what's going to happen is the corey on the hunt is going to go in to a warning and there's really nothing to do the purpose of a jack russell terrier is to go down underground and actually cause that court now we're off again in the hunt to something we really believe all that will be lost without being able to maintain our particular viewpoint the testimony i was alluding to the forces you just can't have getting back to the cache of having to registrations i mean it's going to be as though you're registered with the poodles and the cocker spaniel to see that it seems to me that your adversary makes a good point when he says that the individual breeders are not part of the same act and to take as there is a combination and the breeders in one club won't be able to perfectly overlap are the dogs won't be able to perfectly overlap it seems like some dogs would meet the standard for both clubs they'd be good hunters at it as health certificates after one year and they have all the characteristics of a one club and they would also be fourteen inches for a bitch or fifteen inches for a dog and have the appearance that the other club likes so they could be or smaller won't be able to be granted they'll be no interest in for in any case the person to greet them because they can't even get them into the to the ring to qualify to be walked around they'll be shown the gate as the phrase putting more i'm sure you're on so you're saying that if we can't segregate them then and that requires enforcement against the breeders not just the clubs then the smaller dogs that are better for other two as to the individuals i can only respond that i would think that we made on evidentiary points that i don't think that there was enough before the court to make any actual determination of the financial ability of the club as a state that a court as a circuit sorry cases talk about the need to submit some kind of documentary support