bail in this case could you just take a moment to describe the terms that you believe would be sufficient to satisfy the statutes needs a question on in terms of the bail package that we proposed in the court below  it was i believe one hundred fifty thousand dollar personal recognizance bond signed by three financial responsible individuals home detention with electronic monitoring in california or in florida where in california so his intention would be to go back to california with his parents were his by phin children are currently living so they came back from florida they did ok so it would be electronic monitoring and living at home in california of whether mr nice and is a flight risk or not those included the seriousness of the offense the potential sentence in this case and whether that motivated him to potentially flee his potential access to fake identification there was an issue about the armenian passport at the first hearing before a judge for us to clear it up in the second hearing which at forest his army a passport is expired i think in two thousand and three what age was he when he came here to fifteen years old hell does he know risk of deportation in this case his ties to the community the court the court originally said he has no ties to florida which i think is probably true he'd only live there for a short period of time before his arrest and he certainly has a number of ties to california the court went back the second hearing and said well based on that he has no ties to any single community in the even gone from california for over three years right that's correct he lived in las vegas for quite a period of time and then moved to my he just moved to miami shortly with his intention to stay there for part of what influence judge for instance according to what he said is that is the nature of the offense as well as the strength of the government's proof of the office which is the false identity  scheme and part of your answer seemed to be well everyone else involved and that's been arrested so he doesn't have access anymore to fraudulent think that's true the the the the proof that the government put forward was that there was a there was another hearing  saghir who is the individual under this conspiracy who was responsible for making the fake identifications which allegedly were given to my client which my client then distributed to a team of in vigils who went  and cash checks with those according to the government approved mr safir years detained all of his equipment at the hearing at the government actually brought it in a larger organization in which your client is alleged to have played a role well i think it is a large organization but the organization included you know not only this credit card cashing scheme but there were other unrelated to my client my client is involved in this in this check cashing scheme by which mr savvier was the known individual who was providing of deportations of stanch really undercut ties to the community that it's safe i mean ited states citizen and i have really nowhere else to go and i can stay here where i have ties to the community even if i'm convicted even if i go to prison i get back out and i'm still at home that's a very different situation isn't it than someone who if he is convicted has a substantial risk of losing those ties anyway it seems to me in that circumstance if you look at what are the incentives to flee there they're much more dramatic even if i don't want to go to armenia and i'd like to stay here if i look at the situation realistically and think that i'm facing not just a prison term but the end of the prison term being s deep or ation there were there was always at least a small amount of incentive to do something which you wouldn't under ordinary circumstances do in this case fully but looking at mr have nice ian's historic  actions right he's faced criminal prosecution in the past of which he didn't flee at those you know i don't know whether they were the portable fences or not but he showed up when he was supposed to he resolve those cases like he was supposed to so that gives us at least some historical indication that he'll come back and do what he needs to do i think the second the second sort of factor and that is is it sort of it sort of cuts both ways i think but in terms of his his flock fleeing to get away from the prosecution you know he the ties to the community and the ties to what he's doing if you were to flee i think he recognizes that you know double trouble in any of it right and so it's you know there's that feeling out of the country which he certainly can't do it has don't have a passport right unless some extraordinary something happens which is unlikely if you was to flee within the country it's i same on the same token if he knows that deportation is the result of the case and he he were to flee and then be away from his family and children right that it's not they're being kicked out of the u s necessarily although this is been his home since he's been fifteen years old that is which which you know not all the factors are exactly the same but there are a number of similar factors protection particularly in terms of the weight of the evidence against the defendant and the access or potential to get access to identification documents in that case particularly passports in the court goes back and overturns the lower court if you if you write down if i one factor that you think the district court misapprehend it what would that be  a strong issue with the access to it to false identifications that the fact that clear is that square or simply because there is other than an assumption with no basis that he is able to go and get some fake i d s somewhere mr savvier who the evidence said the government presented as the person who made those fake identifications is in detention they have his equipment for making that he has no other ties in that kind of fake id world i don't and there is no proof of that so i think that both of those i think the other issue is this is this this risk of flight because he has made the arguments i use work you with the defended is no longer free others on the world community of false identification again that's an assumption that the proof in the case presented by the government in argument would be clearer i believe it would be correct when we hear from the may please the court my name is andrew thomas and i represent the united states the defendant has used false identities to obtain money and property from others he's done it and multiple cities around the united states and he's done it in connection with a sweeping organization that involves lots of persons and ties to eastern europe so in light of that context and a lot of the fact of a guilty plea causing the near certain deportation of the defendant individuals since the coconspirator had been detained already sure so i can speak to that with a little context it's true mr saburo was producing photo identification the way the scheme worked in the way it worked for this defendant is they would email images of themselves with the biographical data of the identity they wish to assume to mr safir and he would turn that into a license one of the things that the hearing mr henry referenced we found was a guidebook essentially to creating identities for each of the fifty states mr sevier was creating photo identities usually driver's licenses one of the things this defendant had on him and that others carrying it and used in connection with the scheme were other types of identifying documents of this  defendant to the cargo theft scheme that cargo theft scheme involved impersonating an entire company they would go pick up shipments the defendant appears to have created false influences and also a corporate identity changed identifying information on a website in order to assume that identity separate still the defendant was found with a fully one debit card that was in the name of fake name i think in this case it was dmitri dragon off and so the not the nature of the false documents isn't that's you're saying there were other false identity documents and at least as far as the government is aware there is no proof that those came from the same person who is  coconspirator yes the first point your honor is that false driver's licenses are not the entire universe of false documents and more than just an absence of evidence that mr savvier produced these other false financial documents there is affirmative proof that miami conspirators particularly mr soong you know were manufacturing credit cards or other financial instruments there mr soon enough was stopped with a magnet that but he's he's also detained he is your honor but with the reason that's relevant is twofold which would be my third point the folks who are not detained including this defendant that go from miami to las vegas where they continue the scheme request new identities and keep going forward not just those two mr soong of and mr safir here who are involved in this defendant was manager or some of the folks that he was mentioning were present with him in the hotel room when he was 's no necessary reason to believe that all of the false identification documents used in all of these teams came from the particular individuals who are that's correct your honor and if i may i see my time's expired but i mean we take a little point and there's even reason to believe with respect to this defendant that there is an identity that has not been seized from him so although i do think that it certainly isn't clear error for the judge to have found below that there is a target there's an identity that's not been seized from him you mean he has other documents someplace that yes if i make yes so in this particular circumstance the record before the district judge showed that that one of the e mails that was sent for this identity dimitri dragon off was to create from mr saft your photo identification and there's records that that packet i think in that order was seven different identifications were created and sent off with this defendant was arrested and that identity name was on a fleet one debit card but the photo identification was not recovered and was not recovered in any of the other search locations so in addition to the general risk that this defendant has ongoing access to coconspirators who have in the past used an there is an identity presumably with his name is the guy created by mr saffi or that is still out there waiting for him to use let me let me ask another question i had the impression from judge florists comments that she was concerned also even if these other factors were  you think it is an a concern to be included in the list of factors in determining the risk of flight yes your honor for at least two specific reasons with respect to this defendant one is that los angeles is not a place that he's been recently the government's proof was that he was last in los angeles in connection with the scheme with the quote the armenian crew as we refer to it there so his connections to los angeles are troubling on their face in the present moment but second if the proposal as i understand it is to put him on electronic monitoring what that does is bake in a recurring set of repeating opportunities for flight where pretrial won't know for five to seven hours where the defendant is and fingers crossed that when he leaves l a x he lands in new york under the same anyone who is in home detention will sometimes have to leave to come to the court has to see his lawyer for other purposes that are allowed but that usually doesn't involve transcontinental flight flights and being spending a lot of time in airports while you are theoretically being monitored that's right yes at this this case is distinct from other circumstances where home detention may be appropriate and i'm right the judge for us didn't the these alleged which by the way are in the record before the court nonetheless potential i d s or or identifications which may be out there i would say i haven't seen the e mail the mail is not included here necessarily has been provided discovery requesting the dragon off documentation he did have a credit card personally with and with the name dragon off on it so there you know it the same instance it's not an identification document in terms of risk of flight right which is what we are looking at in court just pointed this out not looking at danger community in terms of risk of flight none none of those identifications make it more likely that not that he is going to flee in this circumstance again while a number of these factors can certainly cut both ways that's true in every case i think there are conditions or a combination of