the meeting the i have a little bit of a speech impediment so it follows me in addition to other people they were going into you know they were going into getting annual raises and they kept being told no no no no ok and you know all the places in the the location like boston and you know providence as providence you know they didn't they didn't dry and i understand the maybe perhaps know that they increase the prices of the prices the compensation by about six dollars to nine thousand dollars and that one year they didn't do anything as to the other yet so the question becomes well you know why not and what we need what we found based on you know the in the office for providence are being dishonest and secondly it's one the council yes when you say they're being dishonest are you saying say no because they well i'd like to say that what they did do is they kept saying there's no need to do it when not obligated to do it and you know my clients constantly you know growing saying we want an increase we do not understand why we're not the recruitment story retention problem with respect to the the nurses or the high end of community i guess i would say yes and the reason i say yes is because there was i think a shortage of i think three out of five  well they should have because as you know you know they they have done correct the you know you have to say that they were they were they were under the gun i mean they were not getting paid what they deserved to be paid and  counsel this is judge malley yeah you know there's when you say what they deserve to be paid i certainly can't disagree that there's probably no nurse in this country or lpn that's getting what they deserve but the question is what are they what is what is the government obligated to pay them and there is there are very specific requirements that proceed any pay increase correct well i would have to say you know respectfully know that   providence but why are they getting the benefit of this review and the question the answer is because providence was not doing years there's nothing there's nothing in the file which will say hey it should be off but should be down it's nothing is there anything counsel again is there anything in the special rate statute or in title thirty eight chapter seventy four that actually requires v a facilities to conduct local market is you know let's let's just say that the you know what the v a what the v a is doing is wrong ok even to somehow raise the race otherwise there's nothing new nothing you can do i think that's clear at least for profit because you know i understand your and  well i don't want to really say oh you're in washington but i don't understand how these people in providence could get away with th centrally lying because there is no excuse me there is no basis for them to go ahead and say oh yeah we did this we did that when you didn't do anything and you can look right no austin and you can say hey look at boston they're doing it all the time so the question is it doesn't seem fair to me that's that's how it and you know i could i have to find the whatever it is you know the handbook or whatever it is which elicit that's that's the way  to being that and how do we explain how do we explain boston and other places so that's why you know we're just looking for it to be even and we don't think it has been and as evidence of that we have the you know right after there was a decision in this case ok i think few months later they raised the case of the compensation i think it was sixty nine thousand  so i don't get that either why didn't they do it beforehand because they wanted to get rid of this case and somebody probably made a mistake with the case b when they made the new race when they did the new race did they follow all of these procedures that you're saying were required yes your honor and it's just to make it clear this statute was designed to help the veterans administration effectuate its mission of providing health care to two vets friends and each essentially provides what the man at the v a handbook calls a management tool so that local facilities can if facing retention or recruitment problems meet those problems by increasing the rate of special of the handle any significant retention and recruitment problems related to its mission putting out to put into the regulations no one factor or combination of factors requires the government to establish a later there is a need to address recruitment and retention problems there's no basis for a conclusion that somehow the government has not followed the requirements set forth in the regulations to look  local look at the situation prevailing with in the providence v a medical center and that is your honor the the parent be a medical center that determine not there is a need for a special rate in two thousand and eighteen there was no need and that is what was reported to the v a in response to congressional delegations fast forward two thousand and twenty months presently there was an issue as of pay the rent visit the regulations that were promulgated under the statute provide further support as defined by the reg pay schedules are determined by an employee's official work site which is also referred to in the employees official work site and that again is determined by the location of the employee's position of record where the employee regularly performs his or her duties and this official count so i guess i guess i'm trying  for the v a to establish a special rate the v a medical center determined that they were they that they were facing a potential loss of lp so that was done that was the basis for the boston labor market is not is not equivalent to the problem is medical central labor market there are different needs and the regulation requires that the terminations be made at the facility level i e high and at the other duty stations within the providence parent v a medical center not a nother v a medicals parents entity such as the boston medical center so everything was done according to what the statutory re seems require which is that the facility consider whether it's losing l p n s whether it faces potential loss of l p s because they are hearing threats that they will quit and that is what ha absolutely to the discretion of the government to determine whether or not a special rate is required it is based upon this is not a statute but that the discretion has to have some sort of reasonable basis to it the just understand that and i understand that there has to be the center survey but i guess i'm asking what is it the kicks off the end survey no your honor there is no requirement that there be an annual survey and that goes to in this situation it's that the facility the local level of the city facility hyannis for example one of the duty stations under the providence v a medical center would have to hear employees for were the v a facility in providence was hearing threats from l p s that they were going to move on to other positions if they did not receive increased pay based on those and that's and that is what the v a has to consider whether they're facing significant recruitment and retention issues and even then the regulation makes it clear that even then nothing requires the government to institute well that's what what the what the driver is is whether your facility is facing problems with retaining or recruiting your lpn in your facility there is no need under the statute  regulations to look elsewhere beyond the local facility which in this case is hyannis council s d c this is judge moore these employees are not held hostage right they if they are better opportunities elsewhere for more money then that would certainly be one of those indicators that would trigger the need to re evaluate the salary structure is that correct that's absolutely correct ron or they could go oh ok  the absence of any evidence that that actually occurring why in the world would the government just sort of gratuitously raise salaries i mean isn't salary really market and somewhat geographically driven so you know wouldn't the government in the absence of anyone leaving in the absence of find people why would you just gratuitously raise salaries  one would not the government would not it is if it's with with the current staffing able to meet its mission there is absolutely no requirement that they increase the special rate it's not a benefit for the workers that's not and so maybe i mean we don't know why but maybe they have to pay more in boston because it's a more expensive place to live in hyannis and they wouldn't be able to retain people there is that possibly true of course ron and of course it has many more hospitals than a duty station then then providence i mean there are world class hospitals for example in boston that that are all about both private and public sector so it is absolutely different labor market and that is in your your honor is absolutely so if they want to go to another facility in another and another and another city they can do so there's no entitlement there's no obligation that under this particular statute and it's regulations that the government simply listen to complaints by workers ok thank you counsel this case is taken under submission thank you