really doesn't want to do it and they really don't necessarily want just some assembled group to do it that they have to support but they have a transportation board that we talked about on the phone figure out where i heard this certainly not out here has the play my father in law will long be remembered i think for the many many things she did to support this community including her five years on the city council  we didn't always agree but i certainly respected her zest for both of life for passion for different topics and her willingness to debate the hard questions i'll also remember that even though we differed on some issues we could always go on to the next issue and sometimes find common ground not always but but it wasn't an overriding antagonism between i think any of the members of the council so we remember her with warmth and  love and mourn her passing and really send i think it's appropriate to say in this instance our thoughts and prayers to bob and the entire  will have a time at the next council meeting where we will remember her more formally in hopes that bob and the families can be here but in the end they have are emergency tonight please exit by one of these two doors to the to my right and gather out in the parking lot to the south of the building if these doors are for any reason blocked go back out into the lobby and take a right out the main doors and again proceed down to the south parking lot tom and i will be responsible tom hubbard and i will be responsible for making sure the building is clear so do not wait thank you thank you item three is  agenda review so are there any additions deletions or changes in the order of the gender items seeing none will move on to for the possible executive session to receive legal guidance the discussion all in favor signify by saying i will move into executive session will be back in fully half an hour that we have scheduled forty forty f borders and definitely the register  staff had really been the ideal one had been a narrower one for a variety of reasons but there were multiple unknown's in the project that at the time specifically how we would treat be able to treat storm  water and how much parking we felt we would need to be able to accommodate on street as the project has evolved and in working with the property owner to mckenzie because here this evening presenting a property owner as well as snyder  they've been able to evolve in their concepts been able to look to where the most appropriate places are to deal with storm water been able to find opportunities to put underground parking and as a result to come up with a narrower cross section of the not listen in this discussion is the fact that the development review board had a first meeting a couple of weeks ago with the applicant around the subdivision of these properties and they had some guidance that they would very much like to see the narrow right of way as well down to this option four be sixty four feet wide from what works cited about is that it's able to accommodate all of the communities in goals in terms of sidewalks recreation paths street trees on street parking without sacrificing what without sacrificing those design elements so what we're able to do is move stormwater elsewhere have a little bit less parking but again that's able to be dealt with underground and or is as a result we're able to create a much more appropriate urban environment which is a really key element of the we think to the success of this area is to have that that feel that is the right ratio of with to building height so with that i'm happy to answer any questions we fully support this  modified resolution i'm sixty four feet and questioned yes i am very glad to see underground parking in addition to the possibility to have from porches  i find that to be very positive out of this changed my one question are those trees that are going to be between parked cars is there going to be enough water for those trees i always priorities in looking at all of these options was to create opportunities for success for trees to exist and so in this case the therefore be bold that specifically designed to carry the trees trees in urban environments of sort of been as you know in a lot of our cities been sort of the left overs and this is a designed to specifically have the feature of both having enough soil and water and be a present element of the streetscape which is i think we're in agreement is a really key element of success so we're confident that yes ok great question so yeah it is just to look at this little yes absolutely so for plowing for snow perspective peter didn't have any problems with i think the justness looked at everything in city center as being a an important trade between all the different desires and so when it comes to i hesitate to put words in dozens of mouth but in past he said things like we have different equipment to deal with different circumstances if this is a priority for the community to have a more compact environment then that can absolutely be accommodated itself he's reviewed this he was the principal drafter of this memo so i'm comfortable in saying that he's fine with the maintenance aspects of any questions or comments from the public on this issue what alright so we have a resolution before us amending the city council's preferred street typical for garden street and i would entertain a motion to approve the resolution so moved any further discussion seeing none at all in favor of please signify by saying all right all right so that has passed thank you very much actually three  him eight this item is a council action to cure a failure to properly warn a do member twentieth twenty seventeen city council vote to close the jaycee park dog park by providing proper warning for possible action on closing the jaycee park dog park at a future council meeting on a date to be determined this is an item that came to my attention and i think everyone has a copy of the november twentieth the the language on that particular item i didn't twelve just said council consideration of a request by a neighbor to close the juicy park dog park due to noise from barking typically the city when we have an item that we intend to actually undertake action on we use that word possible action so it's very clear to the public as well as the council members that not only will there be a discussion but there may in fact be action or without the term action possible action then the understanding is that it's just a conversation a discussion for giving time for contemplation for additional input from the public i this is asking the council do to do is to greet to have a proper warning for action on g c park dog park and my intention would be to time that when the dog park action task force has a recommendation for us then we could  consider or reconsider our action on the dog park then when we have the recommendations from that task force so we're not actually taking any it we're saying we're trying to correct a mistake that we made we it was not properly warned and so we should not have taken a vote that night but we did and the result was the park was closed  action tonight is to put off the correction of that for a period of time till the task force can come back with a recommendation and then we can correct that oversight so we're not so the park will remain closed actually but we're just warning that we will have to take action when we have at a later date so curious what you were going to say you know i just ask how many people are here for the dog park so i just want to say that this is a result of taking action and we did not i would agree with you that i don't think we i don't think we acted consistent with our proposed that has been done elsewhere and i don't know if the votes are there but what i heard you say chair really is that when the dog park task force comes forward with a recommendation at that time the council will then act again on the matter of the j c dog park and i'm glad to see that we're going to wait for the recommendation i think that i still understand the language to mean that action could have been taken just like item number fifteen consider which i'm willing to accept even though it differs from my own and i think that it's very important that we listen to  advice and i would say research that the dog park committee task force is going to bring forth to us we've already received some advice from the chair of that task force and and i think that it's just it ensures that the public process is done so your point of number fifteen that's to consider to go into the liquor board we take action  i would think a majority of us would think we could have waited at least a meeting to close the park to give more time for people to come and be heard about their concerns but i can't what i definitely think we should have i think we acted prematurely and clearly the public felt the same way we got the petition of two hundred seventy names i believe and some real pushback and i think we acted too quickly to open the park to begin with we obviously differ well we may have stumbled in a couple times but this is too not perfect what are legal are the city's legal counsel believes we need to correct this so that's what this intention is so we're not hoping that their recommendations will allow us to then look at my my expectation is that they will come forward with some guidelines and recommendations for how best to  site dog parks and what are the elements that the city needs to consider and follow through on before we site new dog parks with that criteria we've been  the j c dog park and see if it meets the criteria and maybe it might meet it for small dogs so it would be a small dog park you know i don't know i'm waiting to hear from that task force and i think it's important for it to be stated again that it was not just one complaint from one person there were other people who were not in favor of the park being there the dog park being there and there was an actual dog attack that had occurred there so there were various reasons i think that raised concern in people's minds and there were of course pat felt very strongly i think it's on the record so it's not proper for me to say leaving it open until an indefinite date when we would have an actual you know very thoughtful and you know well researched position and policy that will you know i have every reason to believe will be coming from our task force like we owe them some clear expectations is it fair to say it could be possible that we would reopen that dog park at that meeting or is that not on the table i'll second so we can have a discussion thank you well i guess it is possible i mean i i think i guess it depends on how clear the recommendations are and if they can be thoughtfully applied to j c part i mean we can also ask the dog task force to consider the recommendations and and how it might define  redefine the area of jaycee park a dog park whether it should be reopened or closed and they have other requirement i'm not saying we will but it is possible interested in dog parks not just j c dog park but having some dog parks in the community come to that meeting hear the presentation or recommendations from a report and respond to that meeting and keep the keep the park open until the recommendation was done i would make that motion but i don't think i'm going to get a second or two of your vote since your question is it could be reopened but i don't think you have the support of the are regarding what are the requirements or parameters for siting dog parks in the best way possible for the city could include size could include steps to contact the neighborhood and get feedback about their desire or just this like of having a dog park in a particular situation or spot it could include recommendations for hours signage about noise and control i think there's a lot of different variables that would help address some of the concerns that have been raised by the public about dog parks i mean we've gotten certainly feedback that neither of the parks were big enough and good enough so in an effort to and i think we got complaints when they were at the airport because from people who didn't learn a subject thirty dogs to the noise of an f sixteen taking off  so i i i just think we if it makes sense in my opinion to wait till we get some thoughtful recommendations from the committee before we go forward with reopening or siting new dog parks and i again i apologize for that in our interest to address some needs of the public and shared values of many members of the council that this community needs more dog parks that we acted perhaps too quickly in finding land we owned moving the fences and designing a park both the feral street and j c and i appreciate that it is very confusing and annoying to have  open one week and closed another and then it sounds like maybe it might open again and i am sorry for that but we're trying to follow through a process that will allow full discussion and hopefully we will have a process in place that we can use in a number of times to develop different dog parks in our community e my name is cindy my question is what qualifications do the people on this committee have to decide what is best for dogs and their people it's people that are making this decision are they city engineers do they actually know anything about dogs and their behavior or i think we have some people on the committee who are familiar with dogs and their behavior i don't know if anyone is a expert  trainer or care provider we are utilizing staff from the parks and rec committee and a number of people from the neighborhood who are interested and my understanding is that they are gathering information that's available and reviewing that and using that as the basis for the conversation from what i understand the chair of the duck park task force thinks that small dogs are needed and she's researched this need a specific size park and large dogs need and need to much larger park and this was  concerns and thank you for raising them i hope when we discuss this and if there is some recommendations or guidelines that the city wishes to approve that we can include that you know education and for sprint for the dog parks because i would agree your dog is only as good as your ability to control them  but i appreciate your comment i am fortunately was not there at that meeting so i was not part of the conversation i just heard the concerns since then and i really the correct process was not followed it was legal by the attorney ok so that's kind of where i'm getting an expression still speaking to the council was the decision to close the park been made but it wouldn't be in effect it was totally legal if you read opal there's a difference of opinion but our counsel for the city i'm not leaves the house was not just mourned when i read it it has a different language and i think that the citizens of south burlington have gotten used to the process we use and to read items on the agenda with a particular anticipation of what will a fine by the city and the city later decided that that fine was improper i would get refunded that fine that's pretty standard probably yeah ok if i got a parking ticket from the police department and they would figure out that i was legally parked i would be funded right i think and i think so and i get arrested and i was later found like at the first hearing or whatever that i didn't do it i would get policed it's pretty standard that if something is done and then they figure up foundation is wrong or otherwise should have been done by some manner whether it's a technicality or whatever we vacate that why is this different i totally support the context of waiting for the dog park to be to get back totally get it i totally missed support of that but we waited november december january february march april to get a date to warn us to do this again later and i'm just curious why we didn't just follow the rest of the standards we use and say ok that wasn't right reset back to the dog parks open and we'll address this when the committee comes back we've waited this long why not just well it didn't come to everything else i didn't learn this till last week or the week before all right but if i get a fine from the city and it takes  city six months to figure out that they should know find me as soon as you figure out that it was wrong here from the money well i guess that was a judgment call but thank you as i proposed and we can't talk with the three of us outside of session but i had a conversation  chair and one option that we could do is vacate the decision open the dog park but warn for action two weeks from now to wreak lowe's the dog park and we just thought that would be more chaotic i'm open to doing that but i mean if there were three of that wanted to vacate that decision properly warn this reaction at the next meeting the dog park could be open for two weeks but then it would likely be closed two weeks from now i'm wet ready to make that motion to move to vacate that decision when i move to vacate the eight ball and why did we not just make it this the first time like this process i appreciate the governor there come forward in december that would have made sense i agree with you sir well but we say is that i took time off of work to come here i broke my ankle in november so in december i couldn't walk so i couldn't get here and so like you have all these people here because of this and i respectfully ask you to listen to us i understand that you have an agenda but you also on the agenda said that you were going to listen to us at least that's what we understood and that's why you have so many people here it's for that for all those in favor signify by saying i mean post the motion carriers i would love to take the time to hear you today but we're not going to so i thank you for coming you clearly there there's a lot of interest i think when we have this item in may it will be a very full conversation so thank you we'll move on to item nine this is a public continued public hearing on possible amendments to the land development regulations proposed land development regulation amendments and the last time i believe we focused mostly on the first portion which is the establishment of the housing prevention standards and i believe you wanted to do some research and consideration that's why we continued to today ok there was one we certainly had some conversation about at the s p v really well yes well but we had a conversation around the housing preservation replacement standards and also yes and specially in relationship to the airport and i think at that meeting we asked our council to  develop a position or some information about dealing with the homes that the airport had already purchased and if they in fact could be subject to  the contribution there is a list of exceptions in the amendments and some of those have been purchased but some of them have not necessarily there but they are within the map and so they were already considered to be in the middle or something or pull up another chair been included in your counsel provided to counsel previous to them prior to the meeting i think kind of a very broad and surely welcome to discuss it in open session if you would like i would advise in part against as it's attorney client and it's for the purposes of providing professional legal services to this body but you're certainly welcome to to waive that i think  have some hesitation about discussing the success of claims against the city in open session as that could be used later on down the road in a claim against the city that's the purpose of attorney client so i'm certainly willing to but i would i would advise against discussing some of that in open session i think there's some background information that could certainly be helpful and i know i believe paul and monica have some of that ok so clarifying question they have these exceptions and even without the exceptions all this doesn't affect the airport buying these homes it's really just if they want to demolish them then they would have to pay this fine so this shouldn't imply have any implications for buying the home to repurpose it to resell it to reinsulate it or to whatever else one of those other options are it's only for demolitions where this is invoked yes this is triggered the moment it's converted to something other than residential use so if it would be demolition it could also the other thing that i raise via email is open to dominate this conversation i'm curious if there is and i don't think this says to be in executive session but what about an expiration of these exceptions so these exceptions were in place until twenty twenty two which would give or twenty twenty one pick a date but that would give time for during that time if the airport wants to demolish them they can fit you get the new n c p with a new any m and know exactly what they want to do on the house as they've already targeted these exceptions but then on date certain that would be withdrawn and they would no longer have that that horrible housing fee assessment be waived is such a thing unheard of a expiration date a son studying of an exception inside of a nobel they are like this absolutely yeah absolutely not not unheard of i think the way the forty four units in forty one houses that are and exhibit h and the proposed regulation those were set up kind of two two  to be the end line of the current day ip what what's currently been opened as alledge are named as eligible for this the buyout and demolition program i think it includes maybe four units that were previously identified so condos outliner units that are that you see when you drive by and that are i think i don't believe they're in any currently open at the moment  but they were at one point identified for demolitions again those are just a few outliers so so it's possible that you could have a sunset provision in there i don't know how much longer the airport would intend to sort of keep in a ip open for the for the acquisition process i know some it takes them you know three four years to finally close out of the grant funds that they  have and sometimes it may take even may take less than that i think it depends on the homes and the transactions that they have in the home what is the benefit to that as time i'm trying to figure that out and my concern is if we don't include these exceptions then all the sudden the airport or that might affect the airports purchase decisions thus i think we might want to go into executive session from some of those discussions but basically what he advised us in that legal memo  i'm just concerned that if we strip the exceptions all the sudden that might motivate quick demo permits or might also otherwise frustrate you give plenty of time figure it out but you can't destroy your houses after this time period to at the end of the meeting have an executive session to discuss that further or you could do so work we kind of in a little bit of a grey area with the other three proposed amendments here to the arc will be ours i know it's planning and zoning is called to try and get those get those through because it's it's just some uncertainty in permitting right now  and so i guess the recommendation would be if there's going to be you know when you try and make it to suit you could bifurcated somewhat make a decision on those three other l d r's move to continue the hearing at a later public hearing at a later date would be one option on the housing replacement if you it's it's a little tricky because if you decide to do an executive session wanting to have this was the experience the council went through with the kirby cottages and the affordable housing covenants and oh wow i can understand thought about a deadline the owners of these are all people for whom there have been offers to buy and money in grants from the f a a correct me if i'm wrong to purchase them well the wheels of federal government sometimes you know proceed expeditiously and sometimes not and there's no way we can guarantee no matter what deadline we sat that things will be tak care of for these homeowners and i just think that for my part i don't want to leave the homeowners in limbo i don't want a repeat of the situation where you know the f a a comes through two months after the deadline is over thank you well not to switch gears too much but we did have a meeting with the business association and there was there were some issues raised in an example of a l d r that was sort of come founding some of the business owners relates to the bicycle parking standards and they were concerned about going for a what appeared to be a permit that was a pretty small change to their building whenever or use or use  and they then would find out that their bicycle racks that they'd had for however many years were not in compliance and so along with getting the permit to do whatever it is they wanted to do retile the bathroom or something they also would be required to report rip out their bicycle parking and put in the new ones and they felt that they just thought that that was kind of an overreach they certainly understood if they were really so i guess i'm trying to clarify the intent of this had you intended that with small changes not a demolition or it's a brand new building or it's a new brand new use to have the old bicycle racks ripped out and anything that triggers a change to the site plan triggers the need to replace the bicycle rack so if somebody is moving around the parking or they're expanding the building or if there's a change of use within the building those are all triggers of site  that is consistent with the with the other things that historically have fallen into the same category things like dumpster enclosures having downward casting  extra exterior lighting fixtures those kinds of things that fall into the same category of whenever there's a update to the to the site plan that those things need to be addressed  current round of amendments does have some modifications to address at least some of the concerns that were raised by paid committee we shared some of the can we share the concerns that had been raised last fall with the by pet committee and then with the planning commission and some of the changes that are being proposed in this round are to state that if the existing bicycle rack as long as it's not made out of wood that  it can be reused it needs to be affixed to a to a solid surface so it can't be sort of back in the woods somewhere but it can be reused as long as the bicycle can be attached to the frame in at least one place so that's a modification to understand that there are a fair number of rocks that are currently up there is it because you are already received this feedback it we did receive a fair amount of feedback when this first came into effect yes last summer with it was energetic feedback the there's some additional guidance in here some of the feedback that we got early on i think was also that  different companies had slightly different specs for what the racks are and some folks were thinking that they had got the right thing and then the guidance from the american bicycle pedestrian association is different from one what manufacturers did so we try to find the lowest common denominator make that more clear but to your question of intent and maybe monica can speak to this somewhat but there have been a fair amount of discussion  the bike paid committee about and then eventually the planning commission about what's the overall intent and the expected pace of turnover towards having more bicycle racks in the community it was a fair amount of debate of say more should only be with new buildings if it's only with new buildings then it's only with a handful of buildings and over the next ten or fifteen years where's the right line to draw it  felt that with the communities goals of trying to become a bicycle friendly community that that's where they wanted to encourage turnover so that the most buildings possible in the shortest period of time could become a bicycle friendly but there's trace of that in there so there's costner's it's so that's how they got to this ok i don't know if there's anything you want to add to it i don't want to tell no no i'm  to calculate it trying to find the right threshold based on what exists what's best practices elsewhere a property like the human is is a is a really interesting one because it's such an outlier to everything else in the city so the numbers when they multiply to that size that's a six hundred thousand square foot building of retail bringing that down to a normal ten thousand square foot building skills down very very very quickly and we felt that that was would be easier really for the deer and developers to work with because the question i guess was when it's retail and people go in and they do their shopping ideally they're going to come out with case and so to go there by bike it just would not be conducive to really being you know a consumer but there's a lot of employees as well the are tail i mean it's not like warehouse we learned where to live here but there are one was there any consideration that since that is such an outlier i mean i think two hundred bicycle wrecks seems like a lot for the mall having seen very few people not that i hang out there a lot but you know i just have seen such a few number now is that because there aren't bicycle rocks that people don't think plan a single in a single car space so there's a lot of things that different communities are doing to address that kind of conversion without having to change their parking lot but literally just section our hearts and then it an does that trigger the but the need for two hundred bike spaces the into the because the changes at target decided to also make some configuration changes to the parking area then yes so not be not the h and m specifically and not the target specifically on the inside but because they decided that they wanted to rearrange some things outside was talk i don't know what's going to become of the you know we don't have that crystal ball and there are plans but there was talk of a theater turning it more into a destination where there would be entertainment and restaurants and that i can see the bike racks really serving a purpose but for retail i to be honest i don't even though i do i do go to the mall if i buy but i'm one i really am  in a crowd of bikes when i park my bike i think i mean i and i and just this was discussed quite a while ago and i do feel that we probably focused more on the new development in city center  close to that and hopefully a time that would encourage more bike but there is there where is the threshold i guess this my question is is that when the bike path makes its way there or when they're going to  put in new bike racks or if they you know change from retail to a different profile i guess those are the kinds of questions that go through i'm sure you've heard this but just the frustration i heard is when you have to throw away a perfectly good bike rack to put in this new form factor so if there is a common ground or some middle ground where you just accepted that they need a new bike racks that has to be the new form factor but be a little more accepting of existing investment and that's that's right we hope that the current draft amendment would address that as long as there are some basic level of of a buy back if it's the kind that are just a wheel on the ground in the ones where there are only about this high off the ground you can only attach the tire tires can be removed in three seconds now so that that wouldn't meet something where you can touch the me today i just looked at the numbers here for the human assuming it's about six hundred thousand but if they already have sixty or seventy seems silly to mandate them to throw those out that's in the new stuff right so the new standard would read and if you would like we can give you more detail on exactly this but  school rocks exist on the site of the time of the application maybe this is new language they may be permitted to remain and count towards the minimum standards as long as they're compliant with thirteen fourteen which i can go into and second the bike rack can be bike frame can be a considered one bicycle parking space need to be clear of obstructions so you can't put it sort of by in the dumpster where nobody can get this is a sensible change the last thing on the number needed i'm seeing more more pet is this bike so i think people can start biking more if they we were if we were saying that one parking space would be equivalent to about twelve bikes one vehicle parking space one vehicle parking space around twelve so that's the equivalent of the fitting twelve car parking spaces to  fitted for fitting that many bikes so it's not taking up a quarter of their parking lot and you know i can probably see in the winter when all the snow is plowed in one direction it probably would bump into some of that versus the car parking in the one hundred holidays but it's the human larry is probably the the most unique in this conversation in terms of quantity is there a basis for them all saying maybe we shouldn't have to have quite as many or some other new building quite as many parking slot because we've offered the  parking for a different mode ality the two things related to that one in the city center form base code district the the the new regulations drop all of our parking standards they used to vary from between three and a half spaces per thousand square feet up to four restaurants eighteen spaces per thousand square feet meaning about two and a half times the size of the restaurant had to be for parking down to a minimum of two parking spaces profiles and across the board for all uses so it was drop substantially and any first floor retail use has no parking requirement at all that's in the city center area  planning commission is exploring doing similar things elsewhere a related and perhaps even more what we are looking forward to is being even more of an incentive we hope and in the near future is that planning commission is working on an update to the traffic overlay district and our transportation impact fees and at there the last time the commission talked about this a couple months ago the consultant we were working with was giving a model of how the tram traffic impact fees which are assessed every time that there's a new use that goes in that has more assumed trips could be based on total trips rather than vehicle trips and then using a model that actually the state the ramani agency transportation to put together give credit for different things happening so if you've got bike racks then you get a credit immediately if you're on hour is just short of a thousand dollars so if somebody can get a credit right trips that's five thousand dollars right there we're excited that has a lot of potential to really supporting this but we also recognize and we appreciate that these are the it's it's it's not it's not a simple transition we're trying to here as best we can what can we do to make this really easy for folks to do and inexpensive and one of the drivers that we're working with the engineering firms and and developers on is some of the cost of doing this is just the cost of updating the plants hiring the engineer to update the plant we can find a way to make that part simpler we can put dollars towards direct installation rather than hiring your engineer to go and draw little updates on plans which is a cost that doesn't yield a lot of success a lot of change by itself but it's also sort of tricky because that's also where the  liability protection exists that if anybody ever falls the engineer has signed off on it so we're trying to find this this balance of of how do we make these things easy to do but so related to that it sounds like one of the other suggestions with the a was the their desire is that all of our committees and commissions consider the financial or fiscal impact of the different projects or l d r or whatever is brought forward it sounds as if you do receive at least some information when you're considering changes of what the financial impact would be to the business is involved but i think governments and new i can give an example of that within these which is good to hear yeah we can within the farm based code  changes in terms of the exterior material that's used to mean we did make a change here that would allow one of the businesses that came in with an issue to continue i would encourage you to continue that because i think that's another piece that's really important as we go forward with any whether it's i don't know underwood property here we're bicycle path or striping or whatever it is that the lease part of the consideration for of knowledge meant is that this has a cost attached to it and you know what it is and we still believe we should go forward or you modify it because it's a i don't know you know you had a meeting directly after the march nineteenth city council meeting i don't know if you discussed our discussion of the land development regulation amendments or not and i was curious somewhere in between stopping further demolition but not being draconian towards the folks who are already of the process of having their properties and been executed and that's where we draw the line anything after that would fall under the requirement that if there's a demolition or change you use it would be a payment to our housing tr so so this is different from what i read so the contracts that yeah you know all of these are in the contract that they are but they were all part of the prior to get attention of our contract with their potential   had happened or was happening and you know we're sitting here today we're another couple months after the last time we had a crack at this and so i don't know what the process has been on those individual homeowners but i'm assuming that because they were under that contract that we were going to enable purchases to go through at the time that we  with the contribution to the for the housing fund and also my question about how to build more housing that is more attractive to families with children who attend our schools and we really based on who reviewed the for preservation ordinance and what you see in front of you is their product as far as how to how to value the cost of i mean i think we're i'm i'm not intimidated by attorneys but it seemed like i kept coming back and we met with them and they were adamant that this was the right way to go and so that's where are and i think you know other things that we considered and this is where it ended up that one of the questions that i asked was somewhere along the way as you know when you can't for example the airport find these homes and then rent it out and they can't right so we we know that the homes once they're purchased i believe cannot  property owner i guess wouldn't be allowed to ask for oh ok let's get this wonderful open space there let's let's build you know fifty new houses on a well that would not be permitted to five year the situation from just letting a house just gone and not not be careful or and so part of this was to ensure that for the rest of the neighborhood that preserving or affordable housing stock which is what we're after any other questions well well i guess i'm just a question so regarding coming back to the bicycle shop here don't leave me committee in the planning commission have proposed a set of amendments which they are hopeful will address some level the concerns i don't want i don't think would be fair for me to put myself in the shoes of the s p d to say whether they find that th was jimmy loose on you know i just heard something that from the fordable house and from john simpson of it made me think you know there might be a conflict of interest here and i think that maybe the council should really reconsider the charge it's giving to the affordable housing commission and not give them two opposing charges preserve affordable housing but also think about the developers also think about the or also think about everything else so that now the exemption swallowed the rule we need to have an affordable housing commission that has one interest affordable housing and let's go with that and if there are other people who for example let the burlington airport come in and advocate for itself why is the fordable housing community being the advocate for the or poor for anybody else i think they should be really focused on affordable housing otherwise we're not going to have affordable housing look at the number of exemptions in what they presented here i would advocate that they all be removed that makes the administration of the rule absolutely simple you're going to change the use of an affordable house to something that's not a house paid to pay the fee a better be a good reason so that you can afford that fee and it isn't really that much compared to do compared to the cost of a house as far as i can tell and and let's look at the airport  nothing stops them from applying for an additional grant to get additional money to pay the affordable housing impact and nothing stops brewington in view of meeting fifty five percent of the voters of the city of brawling to forward to request the cancellation of the planned basing of the a thirty five at the airport and to request instead low noise level quit with a proven high safety record appropriate for a densely populated area and the city council last monday voted for the solution ninety three to replace the planned basing of the f thirty five with the basing noise level plane with a proven high safety record consistent with the ballot question that was adopted by the voters so with that means is that all of this noise might issue then the whole thing might be evaporating before our eyes the air or the air force is being requested to provide room noise equipment and that we've already heard just now that they're all waivers being given by the f a a so if that's the case maybe we don't have to have any demotions at all maybe people can continue to live in these homes and i think that and none of the f sixteen noise is also going away these planes are aging  everybody is saying they're going to be removed so we're not going to be getting that intense afterburner noise in the neighborhood after they go away and if we get low noise level equipment replacing them why would we give an exemption for demolishing homes that don't need to be demolished after all but even if even if they are going to be you know even if somehow the air force one store brand down the f thirty five into burlington notwithstanding that folks and i think we're going to be seeing a vote in the new scheme is well consistent with the resolution i just read and hopefully we'll have one here in south burlington as well so here four is confronted with possibly with resolutions from several towns it would be unprecedented for the air force he really think they're going to have this and they're not going to want to force this on the voters and on the people of all these towns were made themselves didn't want to do it in the first place it was a pressured decision from senator leahy so but even if they do it is possible for the for growing tent to come up with the money either themselves or by requesting grants they're such experts at getting grants why couldn't they get a grant for the homes for the land for the relocation expenses for the for all kinds of fees that are being that have to do with relocating people to a new home so why wouldn't they get that to work what's the evidence that this is going to interfere with the purchase by burnell and i don't know we haven't seen any evidence so why should we assume that and make decisions to give exemptions based on just a supposition i don't think that was what's at stake you know i heard that there were i think twenty eight homes with twenty eight homes that have not  impact fee that burlington would be collecting if it's sixty thousand dollars per home and that's quite a bit of money that could help just keeping that in place could really help focus the mind of burlington to some degree one more one more element focusing their mind in addition to their own vote in addition to the vote of the people in addition to the possible vote of want to ski in south burlington to say look we have a good reason to get rid of this new noise and then we can get a waiver from the f a a and keep those homes and i think that's what we should be driving for not giving exemptions thank you very much thank ok so i guess what is if there's no other questions or comments or i'm willing to have the ten minute executive session if people are still entertaining us from i have some questions for will take that break and the council will have a brief executive session i need to make a motion going into motion i move that we enter into executive session to discuss   director there as i understand it we're talking about the demolition of homes and buildings and is there any any suggestions or can you think about maybe having a greater demolition fear looking at our feet schedules to see if there's some other ways to make demolition a little less you know we want stuff within the c comments were changes to the draft amendment i guess i would entertain a motion to adopt the draft plan development regulations or steps to the public and obviously a lot of conversation so moving on to item of levon this is the council reviewing possible action to endorse the community outreach mental health partnership between six sitting county communities and howard mental health and kevin's going to take that and thank you affordable housing committee for sharing your expertise we appreciate it  are here with us tonight to join in the discussion so tonight we have an opportunity to get briefed in on the current status but more importantly the background on the community outreach program that's been developed in partnership with our mental health and six communities the communities of coal chester wellness key essex wilston shelburne and south burlington  fundamentally the program is about hiring for mental health counselors and have them embedded with our first responders to support point of contact deescalation and support for  please to be here wanted to give you a brief synopsis of kind of where we were how we got to where we are today we started a number of years ago back and twelve really kind of monitoring we've been doing evidence based policing trying to identify where did we see the need in the community where's the high volume calls weatherby location type of call person even and quickly as we looked at at our data at our statistics we realized that mental health related calls were driving a lot of what we do certainly you know opiates are out there of a mental health as well and from two thousand and twelve until today we've been fourteen went to sixteen in twenty fifteen and we've seen it continue to rise continue to rise i think as we further identify the problem area we've become a little bit better at ferreting it out but also i think we see  increasing need in the community so as we were continuing to monitor these numbers i gave kevin some recent numbers and you know as recent as the beginning of this year we had sixteen mental health related calls in january and february and then i did a freshen up last night and we've had twelve in march alone so we've had about a forty seven percent increase already just this year from january february to march  approached howard mental health because burlington had this great program called street outreach at that point i didn't in any way vision that we would have such an animal here in south burlington i went to them and asked for just a little bit of help and said hey if we've got critical issue that one critical call can we call upon this resource that's in downtown burlington to maybe come and help us if they're available and howard agreed to do that in the fall of fifteen so we were getting a very low level of assistance from them on demand only and only when they were and otherwise occupied in burlington because that's where the resource for this was coming from and we continued to kind of make due and then it was the summer of seventeen so you know about challenges in the agency and i believe that you've already heard some of these anecdotal stories we had one very high functioning nurse who had had three suicide attempts in a very short period of time our officers were really struggling with that because the final time they went to help her she was actually holding a knife against her own throat and they had to use a taser in order to help her and when they tasered her she fell and she became injured so i had an officer left with you know here i am trying to help this woman and i end up hurting her that's how i help or has by hurting her and then right in the same week we had a woman who doused her self with gasoline went into a home was standing with swords holding the officers at bay threatening to ignite herself in the home and it was just a really tough time it was a tough time in the community we were seeing it continues to be but this really came to a head this one weekend so as i was talking with kevin the idea was birthed that let's get together as as a community collaboratively called it where  kevin brought the energy and the power of the city management from our neighbors with the amiss with law enforcement to really talk about this and to commiserate that we're all seeing this level of challenge in our communities this level of strain and stress on our staff and just risk risk to community members who were putting police officers in to deal with people insignia mental health crisis and we have we have training but we have this much training compared to a mental health clinic an that has this much so through this community collaborative there really was a discussion and i think almost instantaneous agreement we can do better we need to do better and kevin seventy was a marching orders down to talked with them and gave him kind of a challenge statement and said burlington's got street outreach they have resources at their disposal in a pretty regular basis really would like to see what can you do for us and howard came up with a proposal to say they looked at the six communities they looked at our gave them our call volumes and they felt that with four clinicians that they might be able to provide some pretty robust not twenty four seven not around the clock but some certainly a lot more coverage we've really had  none but some coverage that could be helpful and supportive to us and thus the idea of community outreach was born with these six communities where the hope is they're actually been ironed we'll have four clinicians to share amongst those six communities we've already met with them and we've been assured by howard that because of our level of need our level of preparation and planning that they have committed that there will be one one f t forty hours  minimum assigned to our community alone and the three will be shared with the other five communities we'll have one just at our disposal because of the the need i think that our collection of statistics the what we've seen in the community has been seventeen of those folks were behavioral health issues of that seventeen for were actually suicidal type issues whether they counted it or mentioned it or not they were apt to be causing themselves some harm just to put that into a little perspective substance abuse for their drug overdoses or alcohol we only had six people with those type of problems and then just to let you know to bring it a little boring mainstream home about this heart issues people had cardiac issues for that whole month we only took ten people with cardiac issues so this is a problem this is a problem we're seeing the street all the time and interestingly enough of those seventeen behavioral health issues cause that we want to six of those were of the same person three of them in the same day to the same person within a twenty four hour frame framework so this is for us as department leaders in the city this is a huge resource sock for us i mean it sucks that life out of his department out of mind when we send out an ambulance will send routinely the fire truck in the ambulance five people he probably has two people from the police department so that's seven people that are tied up on one person who's having an issue and to have somebody that's trained behavioral health to be able to come to the scene and probably not transport this person to  hospital see that they get the help that they need on this is going to be just huge for us because if nothing else that makes us available for other people in the city that need us for other health issues as well without calling outside help but just  throw some of those numbers out there so just in trying to put it into perspective this is what one month looks like in south america so be glad to answer any questions you might have about that but we're we're we're really looking forward to this happening my i'd like to know if i could also recognize both trevor and doug the leadership you provided in addressing mental health issues in your own team and your own teams by going out and finding resources and bringing them in to address those issues are it's a very important initiative that you both have taken on well thank you for that and community outreach will give us  number of layers of being imbedded in the agency they will be available to respond with our people so if we have a mental health crisis we can have a police officer and a clinician go together if there's danger the police officer will make the scene safe will be the primary contact as  becomes safe we can bring in the clinician if there's no danger maybe the police officer stands back and the clinician goes and we have somebody with mental health expertise we have the right tool for the right problem or a problem we will get to a point where if there is no level of danger the clinician will go instead of the officer we can send an officer the clinician will be able to go and provide some mental health assistance to these individuals and we hope as we've seen in street outreach what we hope to see in community outreach is we hope to see these clinicians do a level of maintenance in check and such that they don't wait for a problem if they know there's a family or a person struggling in our community they can do a check in periodic lee to make sure that they're seeing their clinician to make sure that they're taking their medication to make sure that everything is ok so we don't wait for the nine one one call to go to them we provide a little prevention ahead of time through the clinician that doesn't get to the point of nine one one so i think that there's a real strong value here and we've already seen a i call that a lack of a better term i've been involved in a number of restaurants that have come to the community where you're invited to a soft opening where it's like let's try things out we actually had a soft opening of community outrage the other day where we had an individual in our community write a very heartfelt very long letter about some significant struggles in their family mental health struggles financial struggles housing struggles parental struggles across the board and it was really a significant cry for help asking for assistance they were soon to be homeless and there was some hinting of i'm not sure if i can continue to live this way so we were concerned about maybe some suicidal issues we were able to forward that to community outreach we did some background search for them we had engaged with the family before there never been any violence so the community outreach went without us spent some time meeting with this family were able to go with a resource packet and reported back and we've met with them we think everything is fine we've given them some contacts so a situation where we might have put a police officer or any of us team into that family not really knowing what the resources are not knowing for sure doing our best but perhaps not being very effective we were able to send a mental health experts in  before the program was actually even officially started and got a great report back not nearly as robust as this i don't think the need is great down there i know the city of barry has a mental health person on their staff who assists with community outreach it's also been done i'd love to say we're we've we thought up this idea we did it 's come from other areas and if you if you google it it's being deployed has been deployed all across the nation with some great success so i guess i'm just interested like do you have any feeling for what percentage of these calls that you get that are probably mostly mental health related or strictly you know what percentage of those are people that are already known to the howard system do we have a feeling for that  unless the person self reports we don't because of hippo we don't get that shared with us one of the benefits of having a howard clinician with us right is they're going to have a dual dual firewall so to speak they will know the howard if they want people to share with us you but they'll know the howard peace and  the information around you do you do you feel like when you get the nine one one calls that require you to go to wherever it is right for somebody needs help do you think that in some in some instances if not more than just some like me more than half that those are if it's a first time call from that person that they may not have sought out those howard services on the road i guess what i'm getting at is that some people don't seek out help when they need it right and unfortunately when it off finally surfaces it becomes so aggravated that you are the last resort because the person could be threatening somebody else or themselves short so i just am curious i mean  e also know about many people struggle of mental illness as their service resistant so that you know their illness in and of itself makes them resistant to getting help they don't want to be labeled as mentally ill they don't need help and they further degrade into their  illness so what we're hoping is by having these experts on the front line that we can perhaps intervene or they can intervene with people before their health degrades and we have to take them to the hospital i heard just this morning that you know currently in our we have twelve people lined up they've been diagnosed they've been approved they've been found in need of a clinical mental health that and they're waiting in the hallways in the rooms of our emergency department for a therapeutic setting and if we can help to address people's needs before they get to that point better and the data show that that could be three hundred fifty hours on average wait is almost fifteen days on average so there are other infrastructure related problems beds but the but this doesn't directly address but but if at point of contact the escalation  they're not in the then it does address that issue well this also sounds like there's some benefit direct benefit to the your employees your staff so i mean i know we have a person vailable at the police department for mental health care for the personal first one care personal care but it sounds as if this not only helps the public but too i mean when we think about any truly fear when we think about the unfortunate event with phil grennan in downtown burlington those police officers responded to a very good friend of him ladies have spoken with him about phil you know the police officers respond he was an elderly man very mentally ill and whatever happened there was an interaction with the police he was armed with a knife and the police officer shot and killed you know officers are officers worry about that they worry about engaging with someone with a mental illness having things go wrong and having to use deadly force what what i have hopes of is that a we can get to people before they degrade to that point with their illness or even if they are struggling to the level of phil gramm in that we can have instantly on the spot a clinician with us to give us guidance of how to best address that person how to best interact with that person to try to deescalate so i think you know already even though they're not even deployed with us knowing they're coming the level of stress in the building to know that there is help coming there is you know there is some support to us but i also think that circumstantially that when i have a clinician running around in the cruiser with me all night long or for a shift there's going to be some incidental communication and you know that officer just the fact of having somebody to talk to not that they're going to provide clinical support for our team but i think things are going to happen organically to where a conversation that will take place from time to time is going to leave the officer feeling better than they did before they started this shift yeah well i really thank you for putting this on the edge and i think any new major public initiative deserves a public hearing when we build a new public school right these things are are i think a public affair and the public deserves to have a place at the table and i had a few questions in addition to just that that statement obviously  improvement and a response to a need what my questions have to do is just like you know the bricks in the mortar for a new schools we have to look at the bricks in the mortar for this program so looking at the ammo you  i see that it's good through june two thousand and nineteen i was curious what the call level was in the other communities if you've been able to six communities sit down and look at that i was curious about the agreement between the howard center and burlington that operates and the reasons why i'm asking these questions and i'm going to stop after two but the reason why i'm asking these questions i might have others but i mean let you respond first to those two is that we are taking this out  of money that was set aside for our police officers right and this is something that we did a couple years ago and i believe that since that time we've lost a few or one or two police stops i'm not sure how we got to five or seven but anyway and so the goal is of course is to hire police officers right and so those funds may not be there  right unless we up the ante right and then the community ships and so when we're looking at one f t e which is eighty thousand dollars for this community  i'm just curious because clearly you know the other communities were not able to participate as fully as as we were and so i was i was just curious i know this state is participating we won't see that benefit the other communities will so what is their level their call volume and of the level of need and we don't i don't have  mental illness you know just anecdotally when we looked at our staff level we have forty four officers of the cultures the next the next largest with twenty eight so you know this community size our police call volume size  ours was by far the highest although i can't give you the exact numbers and i'm sure we can put those together if it would be helpful but you know as far as the funding for it you ask about the burlington street outreach i'm not one hundred percent knowledgeable where how their funding is done i do know that a majority of it or at least what got the program started was business funded street outreach is very different in design street outreach is designed mostly for maintenance  on going direct service connection with people on the street so when we see street street outrage they're patrolling for lack of a better term they're walking church street they're walking main street downtown they're not embedded in the cruiser with the officers the assigned downtown and they walk a beat and they have regular interaction with the people who or are panhandling having you know whatever mental health issues they're having downtown and i know that the marketplace committee whatever their  is came up with a lot of the funding for that they saw the need and they said we want somebody assigned to our marketplace you know as far as the funding for us currently we have five vacancies i am the most optimistic positive person in the world is the way we're going to hire five people in a year i wish there was that's just in this current climate it's not going to happen so i am sadly i'm one hundred percent confident that we will easily have an eighty thousand dollars surplus  in the coming year and very likely in the year after that i suspect in looking at our department roster that we may have one or two additional retirements besides mine so i think we're going to take a little more of a dip down so i'm not too concerned about having to go to cabin and say we don't have enough money in this budget how are we going to make ends meet i'm very confident that for the next two budget cycles unless somebody were to say you haven't filled those positions we want to take them away market turns but i also think the means of and talking internally the redirecting of these funds from technically a police officer to a clinician is a double win for us we have the capacity and funding to be able to do  that but i also think when we look at the struggles that we're seeing in law enforcement some of the difficulties in recruiting is people don't want to face these challenges they're concerned about facing somebody with mental illness we head out in the last ten days we've had two police officer shootings now i'm not in and around the country questionable shootings i'm not sure if those individuals that were shot were struggling not a little less i venture to guess they probably work so i think this is a bit of a retention tool that may in turn help our recruiting is to say ok i'm concerned about being a police officer i'm concerned about having to deal with someone with mental illness not dealing with them successfully and having a bad outcome i don't know if i want to do that i don't know if i can do that i don't know if i want to keep doing that  so by having this resource in our midst i think it helps to relieve some of that thanks to the officers and i also think makes us a more desirable police department to apply to we support our community and our officers by this rather in in most cases although not completely unique but rather unique for for this state and if you have questions for and just like i said i think it's important to have the public hearing we are the second lowest community for median household income amongst these six communities shelburne is well over one hundred thousand dollars and we're down to sixty seven thousand dollars for our medium income we have between sixty and seventy percent of our population that has property tax adjustment every year due to their income level last year we had twenty five thousand dollars i believe left over in our budget and that's with the hiring of a police officer running a really close slim line with what we have budgeted and so with regard to our eighty thousand dollars we know that essex willis and shelburne and when you skiing culture will be subsidized by the state there are six is paying twenty four thousand six hundred dollars wilson's paying fourteen thousand seven hundred sixty dollars sheldon's paying thirteen thousand one hundred twenty dollars when you ski twelve thousand three hundred dollars skull chester nine hundred thousand six hundred eighty dollars and i'm really uncomfortable with this in the m o you were listed as south burlington the balance necessary to cover all remaining program costs minus the state payment which i been told is about one f t e which i read is eighty one thousand dollars in the press and i know that initially just having read the other paper the thought was that the howard center was going to be funding this program and then there was a thought that there could be grant funds available to fund this program and now it's come down relate to south burlington being the you know the person there to guarantee the funding and i'm i'm really comfortable with that just knowing what we see every year when we are faced with our budget and when i also think  about fair share we are after when you get south burlington with the lowest household income median income now if there's the call volume there that would support that investment i think that justify our our spend expenditures with the public they are as you know we've heard tonight are struggling with affordability issues and money issues we see it before the board of  abatement and it's heartbreaking and i feel for people who are in a crisis situation so we're on the other end though where we're asking people to pay into it and so that's why i'm asking these questions is how sustainable is this for our community when we came within twenty five thousand dollars last year and how fair what i think the grants still pending you know we we should hear on that fairly soon if if i didn't feel confident at this point recommended to kevin that we utilize said eighty thousand dollars for this purpose i wouldn't recommend that last year we had a unique situation where the development growth in the city was down significantly and at this time last year i think we already knew that we were going to be at least several hundred maybe three hundred thousand dollars short in the fire inspection revenue we're doing pretty good this year but we're doing pretty good this year overall as as you've heard in the monthly financials compared to last year at this time i think you heard the concern in my voice if i didn't feel comfortable recommending this i wouldn't have and i think the benefit that we're getting by having a  dedicated mental health staff member as you heard the chief speak i think is worth it for us i think it's needed i think we've justified it in our minds  i think the council meets the weigh in on that if you feel that that's a worthwhile investment as well but we've made the decision to move forward with it because we feel it's a priority and the fairness this year there will be and future years south burlington that subsidized when you know that that's a great point so we needed something to measure it by making the night i think once we get through next summer to july first we'll be able to see what the volume what the exact volume is based on the four people that are servicing the different communities and i think at that point we can say we need to reallocate the costs and i think we also have to weigh is that if if if there isn't enough to justify a full time f t is that what we want because to have somebody i think like trevor has said right around in the cars where our officers are engaging with these people getting to know the folks within our community that there are certain advantages to that but one of the ways we can measure it is by actual data and we'll have that by then with the four people so and i think all the managers are in agreement w that that this is this is a model that needed to start in some fashion and how was it how is it going to well take off we've been committed from the get go on this and the other communities have joined in and that's my concern as well first of all this this language that we're just going to be paying the remainder that i've really feel uncomfortable with that language and kevin can clarify some of the there's a side letter that clarifies it's is the remainder of the one half of the cost of the program so we already committed to one quarter they did their communities of return committed to one quarter of the state to one half and so the remainder of the program is our eighty thousand dollars so it does not if you are thinking so maybe it wouldn't pick up a little bit on your line of thinking in light of concert questioning it is very valid we need to make sure that we're protecting the interests economic interest of the taxpayers up in my other life my daytime job i have served on the faculty senate student affairs committee for the last seven years and we have seen an increase of mental health needs many populations on campus we've also realize that not having the right support systems actually comes out of worse outcomes at a higher cost so i fully support this program and it seems like the right thing to do it also tells me that this were sustainability initiatives or across campus thing to get off the ground but then you have to reach us so we have to keep looking at this get the numbers but also your questions i completely support we need to keep an eye on this and what we're exposing the city for but i applaud our effort to move this forward because that's what needs to be done and if anything i see cell pearlington as fitting that leadership role just to get this thing going so great work and i can assure you that you know we've already met with the statisticians statisticians at howard and each of these clinicians is going to have a mobile device that they will keep minute data sets on they will track everything so that whenever we want it whether the monthly or quarterly we can get reports back from them where have you been called for services what's the level of service and i can assure you that if we use these folks two times next month i'm going to report back to kevin that you know i'm not so sure maybe we thought this was a great idea but maybe we don't need it and it might be the case but if it were i would be happy to report that now we're going to monitor the need to use where are they being used i mean right now selfishly because we have said we're going to pony up the eighty thousand dollars i don't even have to demand it's an automatic we have one f t e devoted to us we're not having to share that where the other communities are just going to be and have been a flower they might have somebody two days this week and three days next week and the availability to them is going to be a lot less than it's going to be done because we're paying the bigger share even if the needs choir's more even if their need requires more and we have fewer cars yeah i mean it's going to have to adjust as we go and you know if we're starting out that because we're paying for one that we're getting one  one is being assigned here now if there's crises of course they will go from community to community as needed but you know absent a crises as far as day to day functionality this community outreach that we want this in gauge with people before  crisis we've got forty is a full guarantee forty hours of that and you know from there we will look at the data and we will assess going forward can i follow up just sort of to along the financial line so the budget that he was presented and the voters approved of for f y included within your budget eighty thousand dollars this program is there right now it included money for the forty four police officers right and we currently have thirty nine in our and so your knowledge was that one of those the sellers for one of them would likely support your program what i heard from my managers my bosses was when we started talking about this program we had a dialogue about do you think you will be hiring five officers the answer was not in my wildest dreams i think we will have unfunded positions for this year and very likely next year and then the discussion was well we can use some of that planned budget surplus to get this program started and there was a significant need and let's use the money that we currently aren't using for police this mental health clinician counselor from howard center and reduce your budget to four fifties for police but would that be a reassessment that we have to make at a later date i think i would i would ask i don't want to com die i don't want to commit the new guy maybe i do know what i mean i will be involved in the beginning of the you so you won't be preparing it but so that's a question for you know that's why we need the data ok right right and i think once we see the data and once we also see what our recruitment looks like for the rest of the year i mean we may walk into f y twenty realizing that we're still going to carry some vacancies and it may be that provides us another year of a little bit of buffer i just think for  this program right so so with these are they going to be called clinicians i don't know what howard wants to call them i've been asked that they've been hired so they're all on staff with howard community outreach workers i guess w employee ok and so are they are they going to be delivering any formal training to the police department all i mean or will they have a session where you they sit down with some police officers at some point you know whatever it is that they can do is not on course on call and deliver some educational instruction about different types of mental illnesses and you know their sources their tree you know words trying to transfer knowledge to police because i don't know how much mental health training police officers get at we have about eighty hours you get a loan well eighty hours eighty hours a year you know no no no no no so the point is is that if somebody is running around a car with a police officer and they they have a a large amount of mental health knowledge right in past experience they're going to we do we assume that they're going to be imparting some of that informally in the car like so if they haven't is or having a conversation about bipolar disorder right they could be imparting a lot of knowledge to an officer who might not have that much information about right and instruct and so so then the next question is the police probably have a fairly intimate  knowledge of of a number of people in the community right who they've had contact with before who probably have are suffering from some sort of a mental health issue right so in these clinicians are going to be present for some of those visits or maybe not present for some of those visits but at some point so then the question is in the car when some of those informal conversations are taking place and i'm just asking the question are are those conversations prohibited from happening if they're concerning a certain individual that that only one of them has had experience with or the other or both or not i mean is hipper going to prevent discussions about so let's say there is a person in a family and the police officers visit this house before and knows extensively this family and the clinician does t of this is building a team so there are some hipaa protections but there's also and howard has been clear that they're going to respect patient privacy they have to legally and also ethically but also if we're talking about somebody struggling in our community and the smith family has a ten year old son who has bipolar disorder and the police officer was there last night and wants to talk with the howard mark about a month to the smith's house and you know i just don't know how to help this little guy you know i there will clearly be a dialogue about you know well here's what i might recommend maybe the clinician will come out it from a circuitous route where they won't say here's what i did last time i met with them they might say well here's what i might recommend and i think some of that can be shared in that sense but certainly that we going to calls together where they're going to be able to talk and play off each other when you talk about training we have you know formal roll calls three times a day at every shift and these workers will work varying hours so they will be able to address a shift  and whether it be in be likely fairly informal but talk about certain mental illnesses talk about how to interact with people or even specific individuals hey we know you've been having a lot of problems with the smith family hears you know what i might recommend to help help help help them or help their child with that so what i'm hoping for is that there is a really evan teaches synergy that happens here right because the police are are skilled in this skill set and the the howard people are skilled in this skill set right in sometimes they complement very well right and those are the situations that you where you want the escalation and you want maximum services for at least for the future of it to be able to be provided right so i'm hopeful that this will help a lot of people and especially help the police department right especially the officers right who have to respond because they're going to or they're going to understand more about basic human nature and basic human nature at times right and and how to be more humanistic in trying to deal with people who are having problems so correct so that those are really does a really good story and i hope that we can accumulate the data that shows that to be true and this is all part of the my  very optimistic world is also part of for the police for us our communities the stigmatizing mental illness i mean we have folks that are in our employ who frequently regularly meet with mental health clinicians to be healthy we you know we don't we don't in any way look at people with you know a cockhead because they've gone off to the gym this morning to work out we need to get to the point where and you've also gone off to meet with your clinician for your mental health you're working on your physical work on a mental health as well and you know we really want to paint the community pain everyone in our community with the idea that having a mental illness should not be a stigma that is somebody who has an illness it's like somebody has a heart condition where they need to watch their diet if you have a mental illness you need to watch your mental health and i hope that by these interactions by this synergy by this complementing of resources that we can better serve community and better serve the people that serve the community you know i'm selfishly there's a i see a significant benefit for our officers in our fire him innocent and you know we're talking a lot about cops i get a little possessive here but firefighters do is that these clinicians or reach workers are also going to jump in an ambulance you know if we if they're dispatched to a call not a police call but it seems to have a mental health component the outreach worker will respond to that as well and could very likely jump in the back of an ambulance and help on the way to the hospital just one last comment is that i think sometimes a person not in uniform might have just the effect that is needed as well so i mean we deal with i mean my career i've dealt with a lot of  people and a common theme we see in a lot of folks struggle mental illness is fear of the government and who's a better representative of the government than the guy that imagine the gun or the guy with the badge and the gun so it's kind of like the wrong tool for the problem at the time y sir all right yes this is good evening my name is doug but i'm a resident of south burlington for twenty seven and a half years this is issue is very important to me i'm also a licensed clinical social worker and drug and alcohol counselor and burling and working in burlington since one nine hundred ninety and i can attest to the difference that having the street outreach program in burlington over a number of years has made in the lives of people with mental illness and struggling with substance abuse issues as well when people are in need they're not often able to go get help outreach provides the option of help being a mobile meeting meeting where they aren't capturing an opportunity for the intervention that might not happen otherwise the importance of outreach also it's a little closer to home you may have ideas about what people look like with these kinds of issues they might look different or they might look the same as it might look like my own family has benefited very personally from outreach support at times no one thinks that their family might be impacted by an illness and require help and it's very easy to think that this doesn't happen to our does to other families in reference to need in two thousand and sixteen according to the national institute of mental health eighteen point three percent of adults or forty four point seven million people in the us have been diagnosed  mental health condition four point two percent of those adults are or ten point four million people have a diagnosis of a serious mental illness some conditions need a higher level of support than others so any individual and family can be impacted perhaps you or your family member or neighbor business partner could be anyone people who are struggling and people who support them are a substantial part of this community the city council represents in regards to tools sometimes the tools of our with first responders that they used to address community needs can look different and change over time so new investments may be required community outreach just like a new ladder or a computer dispatching equipment or cruiser is a tool that will assist our first responders given the current climate to do their jobs to the best of their ability i trust that the leaders working for a city can properly assess what tools they require and i ask that the city council make sure that the people working for say the city of south burlington have these tools that they need to do their jobs i've been following the development of these ideas to an outreach since last summer and as a professional as a president family member and a taxpayer i fully support this initiative thank you for your time thank you very much any other comments yes michael then tom you can ask your question somewhat off point while back you know he said we've got to try to come up with a solution here there's actually another part of this program that they may or may not be able to get off the ground that might amount to some kind of a tree ash thing but exponentially that's a it's a bigger get bigger budget but i think that you know kevin initiated a lot of the effort and provided a lot of the energy for this he was responding i think to some needs that were being expressed by our police and fire department who were finding themself you know attempting to solve problems provide services in situations where you know they were gro calling you to want that's that's way too late this is a neat i don't want this to sound the wrong way but mental health mental illness mental health is probably the better word it's a growth industry you know body replacements big growth industry right you know hips shoulders well over the last several years people began to realize how important ill health is to our bodies the impact that the brain has on physiological health and you're seeing a lot more people paying attention to these these issues but you know w run behind the curve we want to go sure a list of some things that are going on right now that over the last several years have occurred that maybe ten years ago they weren't even on the radar screen  mental health clinicians in almost every school in our community because regular nurses were in over their head trying to figure out how to handle issues of this nature one way or another school budgets found a place you know to find some money for those services of going to needle exchange programs and some of these things to their like out of the box they're scary they've been scary for people when we started you know the initial clinic was over in the city of burlington and when that thing got off to what starr i mean we had the governor of the state was a burnt to resident who was passionately opposed to it so street outreach another needs you know burlington business community but they had a grant that i actually last year the year before there was a grant that expired in burlington and the budget for the street outreach program was like cut it in half and they've been really doing everything that they can for the last year or two to try to overcome the loss of those revenues to do the job that they were doing the use of the nerd cannon that literally the distribution of i i've got i've got a couple of boxes in archy and in my office they're at the point right now where from a health standpoint they're willing to spread that around so that people can have a handy in case of there's an overdose the opiate clinic is you know so severe that i mean it's not frowned upon at all like you know less than a year ago i had no idea about that and i went to a retreat for the howard center and they were there handing these things out to everybody on the board that was at the retreat saying you're good take this with you jim we were at a meeting the other night in the city of brawley tent where there was a panel discussing safe injection sites and i mean that's that's out of the box who knows whether or not that's going to be judged to be a viable approach to addressing a part of the opiate challenge that we're dealing with all of these things fundamentally are responses to need and sometimes we don't have the capacity to respond to the needs you know we'd like to try but sometimes we don't offer what whether it's cost whether it's our commitment  courage that we have but for kevin in our south burlington community to step up the way that they have here for this initiative it really says a great deal for our community community and for the area as well so this is the model that they've created and maybe in a year or two that they can take a look at this program and figure out how it can be more effectively operated and funded  but there are all kinds of benefits and outcomes to this that we can't even think about right now fundamentally south burlington here is caring and this loving their neighbor die push a pause here for that  later in executive session and they put it on the agenda for tomorrow night wednesday wednesday night excuse me the fourth i'm not positive i requested that they  only put it up for discussion but also possible action and they did do that ok ok so i didn't get the sense that that was really what they wanted to do but that's good so they possibly may sales and purchase agreement i don't know if the developer but really addressed what this piece of land and how it ties into the whole region it was really quite eye opening and very informative so i think he will present will be presenting to the planning commission that's really very very interesting and just to expand i mean he really looked at that piece of property upstream is part of this person that for development and he really made it i thought it a pretty incredible case about how important significant chunks of land like that particularly would be would play and is its impact water quality and to have those contiguous pieces within an urban setting is even more powerful and flooding was also another flooding so you know i think the information would be really helpful and he extrapolated out to you know the region in the state and you know the northeast but it was information that i had never heard before in there and it sort of ironic i think to both of us that the university which prides itself on being a part ashbrook on this property just by chance and then they put it up for sale and never apparently asked at least these researchers and maybe they asked the dean i don't know but is this a good piece of property to develop and i just find it sort of and this goes into lake champlain so it's not only connected to potash brook but its impact on lake champlain which the university receives incredible research on the property and then they turn around and say well we need some ice a let's sell it so it's in their back forty and not you know connect those dots and then claire property and some of the impacts of those with did what we did wooded lot too you know that kind of can take contiguous land mass that seems really critical more know people would love to hear from us and talk to people in the they're off yeah well i think they should start with people in their own university but i'm happy to meet with people that you know with a lot of present so they'll have the schematic for the diagrams of community center with them to show i i sent you a in one of my updates that we are working with the town of shelburne on issues associated with the water tank it would it would take a fair and i'm going to try to get a memo to you on this earth three components of the water tank there is the physical structure of the water tank which  champlain water district owns there's the water inside the tank which champlain water district owns until it's purchased by the community through its rate payers and then there's the storage capacity inside the tank we actually own the storage capacity so of those three things those three components of the tank we actually own the storage capacity of the tank it's kind of a strange thing to yeah so and on that score the rate payers and stop are going to are paying for having jacked it up so we have debt on that product that we're paying off yet and then inside we own the storage wealth shelburne is taking advantage of some of the storage bill by the water when it gets to them but it's the storage that we own and so we've been negotiating with them for some number of months mostly just trying to understand this but also on up a fair cost that reflects their overall capacity within the tank that there's their storage that they're using and applying that against the debt that our rate payers are still paying off so when we're done paying off the debt champlain water district will still owned the whole tank but now shelburne will be paying off some of that with us to accommodate the storage that they're using in the tank and we'll use the tank this is for the future development anybody else yes for the most part but it also covers some of the stores a nominal amount that they're currently used so we're talking about jack in the tank of again no no no no that with a jack the tank up there is still dead on that that we're paying off some number of years what what shelburne will end up doing is helping us pay off that debt so it'll drive the to do is just also want to increase the height of the water being put in the tank yes we're going to do that with a pump but that's pump water right there's some engineering issues associated with the system that need to be overcome with our own pump really ok anyway so at some point fairly soon we'll have a problem we'll have a  airport granting chamber on i want to come back to you on your may seventh meeting a third time allots with your work plan from this year just to go over where that stands and during that discussion find out what you want to do as a relates to an economic development comm whatever you want to do but i thought we could do in the context of the may seventh the work plan discussion but if you want to get started on a resolution go for it it's your committee so  anyone we just got a great writer ship report where as compared to those of fourteen writers to this comprehensive scientifically done sample survey two hundred seventeen were really narrowing it down to low income females and corporate workers who have been dropping off our bus ridership global late summer until the final report comes out because we expected to up we're trying to till the soil a little bit before we release some of the recommendations which could have some negative reactions to communities out there when it comes to changing service plans are you sure it was and i mean i don't know myself but if it was an indirect consequence of not making it go to the d t c because there were twelve we were young we were fourteen people  yellow will stand out that's so funny because that's what i look for since kershaw pointed out it's like i was arrested that is kind of like so i didn't notice that little there was only one you know what a fun job to go through those state so it would entertain a motion to approve all of the applications except like bar and on favre now i hate to do this but i would request a very brief executive session because i want to talk about some appointments and process i was the justification for this that i'm fine with it but i moved to go into executive session to discuss the appointment and process and process for