because suicide satisfy the objective component of a deliberate indifference and the seriousness maze of suicide in terms of you die means that prevention measures prevention measures is what is required in the fourteenth amendment your claim at this point in other words for municipal i've built a you need to give us a policy or custom and i see the training part and i know the cases recognize that is one means by which to show that is that or are we down to that or is there more to it than just failure to train for this matter is that at the failure to train in the policy the teller county had not training their jailers and suicide prevention measures yet that is what creates and now liability in this case is our argument county jail with no suicide prevention measures now mr billings competency was at issue in this when he was in custody and so he is transferred to the colorado state mental help facility in pueblo colorado while there he has entered th suicide and that upon return from the current state mental health institution imply blew up in violation of their own policies teller county did not do another mental health evalu circumstances teller county then placed him in a cell by himself with a bed sheet and a bunk bed all the while they could have put him in a cell under continu run constitutional because they denied him necessary medical treatment for a serious condition but that they would you agree they had a policy no i would say they had no we have no policy no policy at all and i thought they said the policy i'm at issue here is the lack of a prevention policy as a teller only now i'm confused because i thought you said earlier it was lack of training you know so so let me back up so the policy is to did have training so there was a suicide component to their training but it was a year before you so you're saying that so to say that there's no training isn't quite accurate well it sounds like what you're saying is there wasn't enough but i think we have to differentiate between response training and prevention frankly i think when we talk about response training the horse is out of the barn a little bit it's really about prevention because when we talk about the medical condition of suicide there's really no going back it's not an issue of let's say a heart attack or stroke or we can kind of way and given let me ask you this did the district court find negligence or what did the district what the district court found was that and found a few things but ultimately what it found was that when mr billing it was at the car a state mental health facility impossible he met with a doctor d and therefore there can be no sense yes the issue is is that a change really if found that when we're looking at through the lens of punishment that's wholly inappropriate under the due process clause if you haven't been are not supposed to be please determination so right yes so my argument here and i make two arguments underneath where i think one is just the productively more strong and i'll start with that is that instead of using the subjective deliberate indifference test it's now an objective  don't have to prove subjective knowledge of the condition we just have to prove that they should have known there was a problem and then i think the case suppose some point because by the way there's a big there's a split in the circuits on that you don't read the circuits haven't caught up with defendant intentionally or recklessly create the conditions that work challenging in this case the answer is yes the jailers classified mr of alina and accordance with their policy that didn't account for suicide prevention so objective subjective issue and that because of this potential certain splitting because we haven't spoken to that issue we probably need to correct yes and you would have earned just to use the objective set standard yes i think that's the ties on the inferences go to the nonmoving party here and what happened at the district court level is that we jump to dr pre press use intervening opinion says that excuses everything excuse all the other knowledge when we talk about the objectiveness required to avoid of by due process and so i think restricting kingsley to just accept the bourse claims doesn't get the force that the court wanted kingsley to have to say versus brennan is not the test council how can you show that additional suicide prevention training would have made a difference when the medical staff at colorado mental health returned him to the detention center and said he wasn't suicidal i think how we demonstrate that is one through our experts which say that teller fell below the standard of you know difference is because the jailer staff will be able to look at the whole picture instead of an isolated opinion from a doctor who's going to grant total forty five minutes with mr fuller to look at the entire picture and i think when we talk about this case posture i think we have the ability to argue to a jury that the whole picture survey considered by the jailers and it wasn't because of a failure to train on prevention and i just ask a really quick  does the record show whether mr billing it was put on suicide watch when he returned from colorado it's showing he was not thank you thank you morning good morning may it please the court cathy hafner greer on behalf of the teller county sheriff the district court properly granted summary judgment to the teller county sheriff the only remaining defend in this case the order is proper under the law and under the evidence the court applied a deliberate indifference standard to the federal constitutional claims and the court also found that in the wrongful death claim that was brought against the sheriff that there was no wrongful act now they have would seem to be closer to a negligence type of standard we believe that based on this court's rulings in cox versus glance and in rife one and two that this court appropriately is still following the  restricted to its context which is a case of alleged excessive force by detention officers or jailers and the supreme court did nothing in that case to indicate that it was overturning farmer versus brennan and it certainly did nothing in that case to indicate that it was overturning the daniels versus william case and imposing a pure negligence standard for section one hundred eighty three claims so if we follow the deliberate indifference standard then you would say the sheriff and all those at the jail  sense of any wrongful act or unconstitutional act because they did not know he was suicidal and they had to know he was suicidal in order to be deliberately indifferent i think i think yes your made at the time that he came to the teller county detention facility and was went through the screening process meant at the medical people he denied any suicidal  denied that he had ever attempted suicide and it's always important to recognize that when you're talking about an independent group contracting like the c h p group which is the medical provider and you have the teller county detention facilities the medical people are not allowed by hipaa to provide diagnoses or specific medical information about one of the pretrial detainees the argument was made here that  they did not that information is not shared with any of the detention officers and burial he's he's arguing as i understand it not with a shared but that they had actual him that is what ms mrs felina testified that she did try to provide medication it would not be appropriate for a for a jail to simply receive something that is purported to be some kind of medication from an outsider even if it is a family member what do you do i mean certainly if he was in that type of status where he was receiving halla bol he should be receiving it quite frankly too until so so if you have that situation the family go to someone else and not the jailer what is the procedure know your honor the medical people at the jail make the determination m the medical people at the jail the c h p the people inquire of him as to his health condition he refused to release any information from a from the place where the hospital that he had left before his arrest so in the medical records there's and what appears to be a post it note where he denied but again the information but if you answer my question if he if he if they believe that he is in need of medication the medical people can prescribe medication for him if mr baleen or refuses to take medication that the mental help or medical people believe he should take then they would need to go to a court to have an order to have him take medication they cannot be worse medication on him what would it occur to get to the point of what i'm trying to find out if the individual the family member has the medication that the inmate is taking and they come to the jail in the jail or says i will not do this individual directly myself these men kenge does the jailer say but you can go down the hall and talk to our medical people and see what should be done she certainly is billing a certainly had the opportunity to be able to talk to washington medical she can do that your honor i don't know that is not part of the of the record and there was never any person who was identified as a b c but you see my problem yes i do see your problem but if you look at exhibit and do you see my problem as well  when she when he returned to the hospital or when he returned to the jail from the hospital that she made an assessment that she talked to him and that he had been never been think you're answering my question  well she specifically states that he was never on suicide watch it during any of his incarcerations at the at the tailor at that time again need to tend to futility arsole she said at any of his incarcerations and that he w never he never demonstrated suicidal ideation during the summer of two thousand and fourteen and that he never was on suicide watch during that time probably wasn't there information in the records that he had been suicidal at some point maybe not within the jail but that he had been suicidal in the past i think there is within the woodland park police records which are not part of the taylor  are you saying then that is far as the detention facility records are concerned there's nothing whatsoever to indicate that mr billings had ever been suicid is that what the record shows your honor i don't know whether there is anything in any of the medical records to an old mind to i'm just asking you the record that we have to work with here is there anything there could show records with the records before you there may be with respect to the pikes peak medical center because of the hospitalization and in statements he made there that there's nothing that was it that is in the record of what was provided to teller county or its its medical facility but the other factor that i think needs to be recognized is that if someone it sometime in their life has been suicidal that does not require that every time that person would go to a detention facility or a jail that they be placed on suicide watch that would be an inappropriate intrusion into that person's right to to be free from being placed on a suicide watch so that has that issue has to be examined time after time whenever a person comes into a facility and when mr felina came back on the friday night of august twenty ninth of labor day weekend with the with the discharge summary from dr patristic you saying that he was not suicidal and not ordering any medication insue campbell recognized that talked to him and he confirmed he was not on any medication and she placed him in the general population now at that time mrs mrs billing i had a conversation telephone conversations with mr blaine on the thirtieth she met with mr of alina in person at the jail on the night sunday night august thirty first and she had a telephone conversation with her son on september  she testified in her depositions which is i believe exhibit two that she did not personally see anything that caused her to believe or some was suicidal that she did not tell anyone at the jail that she believed that he was suicidal and the last conversation that she had with him with her son the night of september first labor day was one that she described as not being a good conversation that she got mad at her son and that was the last time she talked to him when did she bring the medication and it was in med she claims to have brought it in in may we don't have any independent verification s was before it was before he ever went to the state mental high and you in response to briscoe you were describing the procedures that the the jail would follow under those circumstances is that again referring to this record record in this case is that we have in the record those procedures and that they were followed yes we do we have the medical we have the medical record  but it it details also all of the earlier now it's in may in early june mr bill lena made six medical complaints but they were about genital and your unary tract issues they were all checked out that he made no mental health complaints at any time while he was at teller county in the summer of two thousand and fourteen and all of the policies were followed by that by the detention officers and i would just them running out of time so i would rely on our briefing and ask what what one point if i may just return to just one question my notes sta showing a diagnosis of schizophrenia prior suicide attempts and prescribe medication or by notes and correct the medical people may have had that your honor but  detention officers would not have and the medical people did not segmenting the medical records of medical officers because of medical privacy the and as one last point saying