pay status you know it would be quite a lovely meaning collection the i r s cannot collect outside of bankruptcy until the player is in a pay status and i would direct you s wants is it to put them in a better position than if your client had gone through chapter thirteen no the i r s this position remains the same except they do not get paid in that with the trial in the bankruptcy court the bankruptcy courts to sustain the i r s position and district court sustain the bankruptcy court and is none feasible because simply not enough money to pay off the the bankruptcy plan over a period not exceeding sixty months and that's what i'm really driving at that is to send the i r s position drives you to do is to pay off money as if it were a a secure place in the bankruptcy to be a secured claim in the bankruptcy it must be secured against property of the state therefore if the plan is not property of the state then it's not secured in the bankruptcy case however that does not mean that outside of the bankruptcy the i r s could not exercise whatever rights they have whatever normal rights they have  very much well from the service at this time morning robert graham and for the united states i'm sorry sir this i should start by saying that if i were advocating to a legislative body have to redraft the bankruptcy code i probably would not stick with the provisions that are here we're dealing with in this case which are primarily five forty one c two which provides well it looks like the banks and credit card companies are  tax lien long but federal federal internal revenue code does provide that we have a lien on the pension that we can enforce it or foreclose it to within certain boundaries no question the individual  may grow based upon additional contributions or market changes and your interest and penalties will grow and interest and penalties will grow the that's correct so everybody gets a little growth and you get your money in the end should take account of the fact that someone could become eligible for retirement payments during the life of their claim or the plan and the and the plan in that case would be something that the property of the state under paterson patterson stated that there are qualified pension plans with an f a only a nation clause is not included in the estate it d this court stated you have to look no further than to determine if there's a qualified and paid eighty anation clause under erisa and the property is just excluded  bankruptcy what they cannot collect outside we agree that outside they can take whatever action they want if they want to reduce it to a church and that's fine if they want to levy they'll get nothing until the price of property is in a payout property from the point shops and then they would put the property in the property room and never provide a hearing as required by the financial code sections and code sections just hold the property and never return it and they're still holding the property a year or two later my understanding is the criminal case is to which these there's two items right to hearing yes the most criminal cases are over and done with there were never any yes yes one one never went to one was just ancient history the one criminal case rights to recovery of property from the victims if there is a victim in the case of one of the conditions of probation is that they reimburse the farm broker but the fact of the matter is  the law enforcement agency the sheriff's department seized the property they put it in their property room they never provided hearings in a dispute the property they don't return it to the victim they just keep the property what is it your client wants we want to hearing we want the hearings to which we're entitled or our property returned to us if there's no crying there's there's no no reason that they should be having the property and you asked for a hearing for to sit there for now into eternity or if the day after a year had filed this action on behalf of your client yes want horsemen returned the two rings and otherwise comply with the law what would be left of your l pretrial previous coverage and we maintain that all we need to do is to allege reasonably allege that jay koester had done the things that he did but the court required that we prove it at a pretty discovery stage which we could not filed it was agreed with plaintiffs counsel and i have letters confirming an argument that the kings county sheriff's department would maintain custody of these ratings pending this lawsuit and that's what we've done with plaintiffs coun agreement that's why we still have the rings the true owners of the rings are still we still have contact with the true owners of the rings we haven't given them the rings back to the true owners we haven't given them back  for this lawsuit was filed we've held on of the reigns and that's why there are other parties out there with interest in these rings as well but ordinarily happens in a situation like this were law enforcement thinks that items of property in the possession of the pawn shop owner are fruits of a crime or evidence of a crime and they're obtained by law enforcement what normally happens i guess that would depend on that and i think it's two one two zero six point eight and penal code sections fourteen zero seven to fourteen thirteen that deal with disposing or transferring the property after a criminal after the law enforcement agency no longer needs it and both of those section claim for a notice in hearing but eventually a judge has to decide who's going to have that property the sheriff's department just holds it there just hold their custody there because they right they can't do anything let's assume the scenario of no prosecution the upon shop at the true owner and the property can actually be turned over to the true owner but notice also has to be given to the to the pine shop owner that the property is has been turned over  him notice an opportunity to be heard as to who should get that ring and that the pawn shop owner does have an interest in the ring he's loaned out money to somebody in return for that ring so he does have an ownership interest as well as the owner but application with the court i'm sure there are things that they can do but i don't think the code sections that deal with pawnbroker specifically outlined what they can do but obviously there are things they can do with th available turned upon shop owner by which he can test whether or not those rang along to him or rather whether he has some property interest in those rings again i don't think the statute specifically states this is their avenue to do this but  can do it by filing an application with a court a claim for damages with the county something as simple as that but again with with regards to these two rings they stayed where they were upon agreement by the parties again now that is outside of the record but so is the entire argument about where the rain is that right now my murder the claim may simply be that the so that the initial seizure was the violation of the rights rather than a claim that there's an absence of yes with regard to the issue about asking for the rings back it was the farm brokers that made their request to the sheriff's department to get their property back one of my going to get my property back they kept insisting on getting that in the in the sheriff's take it and why they don't return it we go through you know hearing after hearing all we want is you know hearing from we want it we don't want to keep having hearings in court we're going to have the kind of a hearing that is going to provide us an opportunity rather than have a sphere in this court i think we understand your argument we appreciate both of you coming in today the case just argued will be submitted to the group and we will decide this case but this is just a suggestion as you exit the courthouse on the first floor in that corner of the building is our circuit mediation office there really found people in the market expert in response solving the case is entirely up to the both of you if you'd like to drop by there and see if they can system some way in resolving these things thank you thank you both for coming in today appreciate