relief that she does not have because you're not the better it is that your case it is that your automatic stay to be credited as you did not raise any of these issues before the bankruptcy court and say we want to what those points in your time said the time clock will start now ok st of all your honor your initial order i did not see where you wanted more than one person to argue i thought it was just one person who wanted to be named  we agreed to name my myself secondly my wife doesn't permit if the disability which is recorded below and i snow in some authority which authorizes another person spouse or otherwise to prosecute in the tire bankruptcy  would respectfully say that if that wasn't given i would have been immediately sent in the order a request for an order for intervention and i called one of your clerks she said no says he or did you not to follow any additional papers i would really a count there's another point as for being a code editor there's other authority that says if i have a property interest in the property or in the you know financial transaction that also in bankruptcy authority grants me that under the bankruptcy code the of the also authority to actually come in and argue for that is well but at any rate there are three main points to this appeal number one the bankruptcy order punishes myself and be without due process of law and the rd point is that it permits the appellee said commit fraud upon the court by trees anything else information to the court to rely upon now the st point the bankruptcy court orders violates  was challenging initially the rescission the refusal to give us our two hundred thousand dollars back but after we made an agreement with thank you remember we accepted thing keeping the two hundred thousand dollars as long as they accepted our rescission and attorney to decide whether or not he wanted to keep it i think we understand that background from what you've written in your brief but didn't you litigate that of the federal courts and ultimately lose no sir we only litigated the fraud in two thousand and nine  payments and the two bankruptcies that were made on time we had not appearance at three hundred and forty one a meeting we had plans that had all kinds of problems with them that were never resolved right wasn't appropriate for the bankruptcy judge based the judge was very much upset at our not bankruptcy litigation that's that's that's what stuff everything else comes from that he was very upset the muster believe sent in court why did they litigate for this apparently disabled person we relied upon more years to navigate this essentially she hired to czerny i didn't want to do it i was in state court but she took the initiative and she pushed the bankruptcy and i had a supporter because both our propert any negotiating pain is that's what we've been trying to do for years and so it's far as to actually dismissal yes untimely not coming up with petitions and it really goes to the fact that so many  litigants we were forced to go pro se because you take attorneys all this money and in the end they don't really you know pretty present needs to be presented competently and that's one reason why i stepped in with my adversary case argue that because we never alleged and it was smart raised in the appeal by a civil i think appropriately so you're reading sentencing on the lack of prosecution what do you think of the principle features of that well the principle features rulings and this was kind of a case where it just seemed like if we just kept it going it was just and i could see that the court felt that as well it was just get it could go on for another six months or a year or who knows how on in this case no doubt there are filings and you know by using the were part of a scheme instead of solely evidencing a scheme it leaves the bankruptcy court open to accepting any sort of evidence or other factual considerations outside the fact that multiple bankruptcy filings were made to show that earth samples very common as we did in this issues that you might be raising in a bankruptcy case so and we have cited a few opinions in our briefing where in a bankruptcy court was just met with two bankruptcy filing but extensive other non bankruptcy activities such as you know transfers of the property or civil litigation namely attempts to prevent a creditor from foreclosing on a default debt and those courts upheld those interim orders you know based on that showing so so you know what you would concede that in the st bankruptcy deform relief when the been appropriate but then the nd one you would say that's that's the tweener lines here the numerous your apartment and the evidence of the scheme or choir events i think in some ways are two distinct but related concepts and in this case i don't think there can be any question that the numerosity requirement was matt whereas it would not have met in the st case an obviously you know it's our position every five before substantial evidence before the bankruptcy courts to support the bankruptcy court finding that there was a scheme that was intended to stepping back a little further to judge ferris's point even if we were to look at the underlying merits of these contentions regarding the prior civil litigation history the  for great stock in the fact that they had some success in intermediate appellate challenges which resulted in you know to hers another teen challenge is being overruled based on the idea that the interest questioning how much the bankruptcy court had to get into that to have its decision be appropriate yeah and i don't believe that the bankruptcy court necessarily had to adopt o for i think it's worth mentioning that since this it was briefed and within the last couple weeks the court in marriage for did issue a ruling that addresses a lot of these issues that subsequently bank of america or other of our clients predecessors in interest may have agreed or conceded that these loans are not  mode and i'm contending that you know the appellants have been raising all the same issues for you know several years that they have been decided or alternatively judge taylor as you have intimated earlier after finding that they had no probability of success on the merits of these allegations issued two hundred and fifty thousand dollars security order which appellant choir to pose as a condition to the further i believe the appeal for not orders untimely and in any event without merits though they contend we have no legal authority to file a motion that authority was expressly provided by the bankruptcy court including its procedures for the mortgage modification mediation program and that the bankruptcy court had specifically rejected these can counterarguments out the bankruptcy c