the subcommittee will come to the chair will ask that all members staff and everyone turn on what time electronic devices off or on vibrate subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on the aviation consumer issues focusing on emergency contingency planning and outlook for summer travel i will give a brief opening statement asked the ranking member mr p driver and i remarks or his opening statement and then we will go to the first panel of witnesses i want to welcome everyone today to our subcommittee hearing on aviation consumer issues emergency contingency planning and the outlook for summer travel as all of you i think on this panel know and many in the audience know that the subcommittee promised to hold this hearing some time ago we said that in april or may we would hold a hearing on this issue and that is the reason we're here today subcommittee continues to examine consumer issues and airline delays to provide accountability and oversight of the part of transportation the federal aviation administration and the airline industry and the hundred tenth congress a subcommittee held a series of four hearings and one roundtable meeting on flight delays and consumer issues today we will examine the progress and remaining challenges to reduce flight delays and improve airline consumer protections although delay and consumer service statistic show improvement overall we are interested in hearing from the witnesses to learn if these trends can be maintained when air travel remounts the downturn of the economy has had a significant impact on the airlines roughly thirteen percent of domestic scheduled flights were cut air fares increased and new fees for services such as checked bag baggage were initiated this led to a ten percent decline in passengers compared to the same period in two thousand and seven with your flights unless passengers airline delays decreased according to the bureau of transportation statistics approximately twenty percent of flights were delayed or cancelled thus far through march of two thousand and nine the lowest levels since two thousand and three despite this decline and delays nationwide new york remains a critical choke point in the system i have requested that the d o t inspector champ general examine how the delays in the new york regional airspace affect the rest of the national air based system and i look forward to hearing the i g s point a reassessment today according to the f a a seventy five percent of delays nationwide in the summer of two thousand and seven resulted from congestion surrounding new york the d o t i g will report today on progress made by the f a a to implement the seventy seven operational and infrastructure improvements that the new york aviation will making committee recommend today's hearing will also touch on how the aviation aviation industry plans and reacts to help emergencies and what precautionary steps have been taken to protect passengers and those who work on board the aircraft this is especially important with the recent outbreak of swine flu the airline industry plays an important role in assisting public health officials to control the spread of communicable diseases the outbreak of sars and a flu have shaped how government agencies and airlines prepare and plan for public health emergencies to protect public health and to many major travel disruptions air travel continues to be safe despite the recent swine flu outbreak airports  airlines are voluntarily increasing their efforts to clean public spaces thoroughly and inform the public on the latest travel and health advisory notices flight attendants also play a critical role in screening passengers for flu like symptoms and taking precautions nine tomorrow the house of representatives will consider this legislation and i look forward to working with our friends in the other body to pass a final bill that includes strong consumer protections with that high again i want to welcome all of you here today i especially welcome our witnesses and i look forward to hearing your testimony before i recognize mr pease try for his opening statement i ask unanimous consent to allow two weeks for all members to revise and extend their remarks and to permit the submission of additional statements and materials by members  witnesses without objection so ordered this time the chair recognizes the ranking member of the subcommittee thank you very much mr chairman i'm also pleased to welcome our witnesses here today as we again consider airline congestion consumer services since the last hearing on this topic the airline industry has changed dramatically due to the high price of fuel last spring and summer airlines were forced to make significant capacity cuts at the end of last summer second airlines have been dealing with steep drop off in demand as has the rest of the economy caused by the current economic downturn the result has been a dramatic they contract the industry with the contraction of the airline industry there's been a corresponding decrease in delays across the national airspace system going to six offered by the department transportations office of inspector general delays nationwide have decreased an average of nineteen percent almost every statistical metric collected by the department for trays and industry with better on time performance and customer satisfaction however it's my understanding that the nation's busiest airports the hubs of the transportation network have not seen as dramatic a decrease in traffic nor the corresponding reduction in delays interested in hearing from the inspector general about what steps the f a a is taking to address these persistent choke points last year the f a a identified seventy seven initiatives that it can junction with the new york airspace redesign project would help unlock the new york airspace i'm interested in hearing about initiatives as well as the inspector general's assessment of whether or not these initiatives effectively address congestion problems also interested in hearing about the progress of the departed transportations rulemaking now under way to address consumer protections last congress the subcommittee worked in a bipartisan fashion to address consumer protections in the f a a reauthorization bill please that those provisions are part of the reauthorization bill to be considered on the floor this very week we all understand that weather is the wild card factor in aviation and there's not much we can do about it but there are improvements that can be made in the near term to help avoid frustrating we're witnessing a system in desperate need of new technologies in the air and increased capacity on the ground history is any guide passenger demand and increased traffic will rebound with the economy  and the f a a must use the low as a opportunity to get ahead of the next crisis well next gen offer some efficiencies it alone will not solve congestion initiatives undertaken by the stakeholders to address this dilemma sooner rather than later are critical to get out of this problem so that we may prevent future aviation travel problems both the government and industry witnesses will provide an update on the initiatives they have implemented since our last hearing on this topic and i'm also interested in hearing exactly what impact they predict these efforts will have on the traveling public this summer with that i think chairman and look forward to his testimony the chair thanks the ranking member let me introduce our first panel of witnesses but let me make an announcement before i do the rules committee will be meeting in just a few minutes to hear testimony from chairman over star ranking member mike and myself and mr p trice i will be mr p trying i will be leaving to go to the rules committee a number of amendments have been filed and we are going over to testify on the bill and on the rule before the rules committee  international affairs with the u s department of transportation used to be a member of the staff and was my legislative director for nine years before going to the department of transportation so we welcome her back before the sub committee and and then make a commitment that we're going to have you back often miss nancy lose the acting assistant administrator aviation policy planning on environment with the f a a and the honorable calvin  inspector general for the u s department of transportation has testified before the subcommittee many times and has done excellent work for the subcommittee and for our country with that to the chair would remind our witnesses that  members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting me to this hearing i appreciate the opportunity to discuss with you and the subcommittee aviation consumer specifically i will be discussing the status of our current consumer protection and regulatory compliance initiative and our work in coordination with other federal agencies in connection with the h one n one outbreak in two thousand and seven complaints by airline consumers filed with the department starkly this spike was in part due to the detail on time performance and incidents in december two thousand and six and february two thousand and seven in which passengers on board many aircraft were stranded for hours on airport tarmacs while waiting for their flights to take off over the last two years however data reported to the department show improvements in the quality of air service for example for the first quarter of two thousand and nine there sir the complaints are down thirty percent compared to the first quarter of two thousand and eight and down twenty five percent compared to the first quarter of two thousand and seven another example for the first quarter of two thousand and nine the on time performance rate was seventy nine point two percent compared to the seventy point eight percent during the first quarter of two thousand and eight and the seventy one point four percent rate during the first quarter of two thousand and seven although the statistics show a trend in the right direction they do not necessarily indicate that the underlying problems that they measure are being solved rather much of the into the improvement may be attributable to capacity cuts by the airline with this in mind the department  committed to protecting consumers and ensuring that the quality of air service continues to improve even when airlines return to adding capacity as the economy recovers we believe that consumers are entitled to strong and effective protections when traveling by air and believe more can and will be done in particular we are focused on a notice of proposed rule making issued last december proposing to enhance airline passenger protections by designating the operation of a chronically delayed flight as an unfair and deceptive practice and by requiring carriers to adopt continued the plans for lengthy tarmac delays and incorporate them into their contract of carriage as well as have customer service plans incorporate them into their contract of carriage and audit their compliance with  well i cannot discuss the specific issues involved in an active role making before the department we are currently evaluating the n p r m and the comments filed in response to it and will determine the next steps associated with this n p r m once we are through with our evaluation guarding the h one n one flu outbreak let me start by reiterating earlier comments by secretary la hood it is safe to fly and one of the reasons it is safe to fly is that the department of transportation together with several other government agencies have been working hard to ensure that our aviation system is prepared to handle the kinds of concerns raised by the recent h one n one outbreak specifically the department has been participating in a homeland security council led pandemic planning and preparedness working group for several years consequently when h one n one broke out our response team was already in place and we were ready to take immediate action the planning component and exercises previously conducted by the department ensure that the o t staff could rapidly and appropriately respond to h one n one as the situation warranted over the weeks following the initial outbreak the measures taken and their communications initiated were scaled up and then down as more information about the virus became available in closing chairman i again want to reiterate that the department is committed to protecting consumers and looks forward to working with congress and all stakeholders to achieve this goal thank you for the opportunity to testify today and i will be happy to answer any questions or comments you may have  chairman castello ranking member peter ryan members of the subcommittee missed boss well thank you very much for having me here today to discuss the outlook for the summer travel season i appreciate this committee's concern about congestion and delays no one wants a repeat of the summer of two thousand and seven that's why next gen is the necessary technology lead that expands capacity to meet demand and improve the passenger experience while enhancing safety and it reduces congestion noise and emissions even in the face of falling passenger demand in reduced number of airline flights we still experience congestion in our busiest air space we know that we must be poised to handle demand that will surely return as the nation's economy improves has made clear that accelerating next gen is a key priority for him and his this administration we appreciate the support that this committee as well as congress as a whole has given us as we move forward with next general nationwide  been putting a range of solutions into place new runways provide significant capacity and operational improvements as you know we opened three new runways in november at seattle dulles and o'hare we also completed a runway extension at philadelphia in february and we have several other runway projects in development over the next several years to increase capacity and reduce delays for the flying public the f a a has been highly proactive in anticipating in planning to reduce delays nationally we began our summer two thousand and nine planning last october we've met with the air carriers and other stakeholders we're monitoring airline schedules six months into the future and we're ready to respond with congestion action teams to any airports or schedule increases appear likely to increase delays significantly we've already seen these improvements pay dividends last summer we saw improvements in delays over the summer of two thousand and seven in new york on time performance average in total delays and the number of operations with long delays all improved in the summer of two thousand and eight compared to the summer of two thousand and seven as we gear up for the summer of two thousand and nine we're continuing our work on implementing measures to minimize delays summer thunderstorms typically mean increased delays but we expect on time performance to be higher nationally than last summer with the reduction in flights by the airlines despite the downturn in traffic f a s continuing to work aggressively to implement operational and structural improvements so we're prepared to handle the uptick of traffic in the future now in new york we haven't seen the same volume of downturn in either traffic or delays we're also anticipating some impact of operations caused by various runway construction improvements the port authority of new york and new jersey's work on construction projects at j f k that will ultimately have delayed benefits closed a runway there for the past few weeks and w close another runway there for much of next summer planning for that process is underway and how to mitigate delays and we'll be reaching out further to the airport and other stakeholders as we move forward in response to new york's unique situation the a maximizes the use of air space especially in congested areas such as new york through targeted air space and procedures enhanced meant for example or using wrapped a route availability planning tool to better work around bad weather to reduce delays this summer we've also scheduled a limited schedule operations that will guardia j f k and newark in our ongoing efforts to reduce delays the f a a plans to continue to keep the limits on schedule operations in place at the new york airport while this administration continues to consider its next step with regard to a long term congestion management program while we have a strong focus in new york because of its impact on the rest of the nasa we continue to work to improve chairman costello ranking member p dr mr boswell members of the subcommittee i appreciate the opportunity to testify on the progress and challenges with the department's own f a s efforts to reduce flight delays and improve airline customer service since we last testified on this subject in april two thousand and eight the aviation landscape is significantly changed as evidenced by flight cutbacks the new fees the into stream will continue to face uncertain times as airlines and airports respond to the economic downturn this summer while air travelers will likely see fewer delays due to reduced flight operations and other factors they will also have fewer choices with respect to scheduled flights and destinations in my statement today i will highlight three key points related to delays in customer service the reasons for last year's reductions in delays initiatives that can further reduce delays and welcome progress in airline customer service first we saw a reduction some delays from two thousand and seven the decrease in delays was primarily driven by cutbacks in flights that airlines implemented in response to last year's spike in fuel prices and a softening economy in addition we saw changes in flight scheduling practices with airlines increasing the time between arrival of an aircraft at an airport and its next departure this increase in the turnaround time allows the airport airline to absorb inbound delays and minimizes the delay of subsequent flights while overall air travel delays have improved high levels of delay continue at larger congested air airports such as newark j f k and la guardia delays at these airports are particularly problematic because they have ripple effects nationwide it's important to point out that although overall flight delays look favorable history shows that traffic will rebound given the intrinsic value of air transport to the nation's livelihood f a a has an opportunity to position the agency for when demand returns and this leads me to my second point near term initiatives that can reduce delays particularly a choke points such as the new york airports must be pursued by the f a a as we noted in our march two thousand and nine testimony f a a must continue to pursue a number of short term projects that can enhance the flow of traffic at congested airports these include new airport infrastructure airspace redesign performance based navigation initiatives these initiatives are critical interim measures that can reduce delays until f a a can better define the expectations costs and benefits of next general following record breaking delays in the summer of two thousand and seven the ots aviation rule making committee your arc recommended seventy seven initiatives to reduce delays at the three new york airports while the f a a reports that more than one third of the initiatives are complete most of them are not used or are used infrequently additionally it's not clear that the completed initiatives have  since f a a has no way to measure their impact we believe it would be prudent for f a a to reevaluate the initiatives and determine what reasonably can be accomplished at the three new york airports at the subcommittee's request we will continue to review f a s progress in implementing these initiatives third d o t has made progress on the customer service front with fewer planes in the air and the resulting slowdown in passenger traffic there was also a drop in consumer complaints in two thousand eight these were down approximately twenty percent from two thousand and seven and there were twenty five percent fewer reports of mishandled baggage in addition the amount of compensation doubled for passengers bumped from their flights and more data are now collected on flights that are cancelled diverted or returned to the gate to provide a better understanding of long on board delays with airlines advance schedules for to summer two thousand and nine showing scheduled flights down by about five percent from last summer the expectation is that on time performance and corresponding customer satisfaction will hold steady or improve further while these appear to be positive trends these improvements were primarily driven by airlines capacity cuts and service reductions and the corresponding decline in passenger traffic it's therefore important for d o t to complete a critical rule that would provide enhanced protections to travelers these include airline contingency plans for lengthy delays designees to respond to complaints and publish delay and complaint data once finalized the o t must work position itself to oversee air carriers compliance with the new requirements included in the final rule in addition d o t should continue the good faith efforts of the national task force that developed a model continue to plan for dealing with along on board delays the task force issued its report to the secretary last november and offered general voluntary guidance to airlines airports government agencies and other aviation service providers however we think additional guidance is needed from the o t to include defining the time period that warrants efforts to meet essential needs of passengers caught in an onboard delay and determining how long to wait before deploying them we  size does not fit all but maintain that a range needs to be established in conclusion the u s civil aviation industry is remarkably resilient and history tells us the demand for air travel will rebound given that the improvements we witnessed with respect to delays in airline customer satisfaction are largely attributable to airline reductions and service the department f a a and stakeholders must focus on fundamental changes that can boost capacity and reduce delays in both the short and long term we will continue to monitor related efforts underway to enhance capacity and improve airline customer service this concludes my statement mr chairman i'd be happy to answer any questions you or other members of the subcommittee might have thank you very much  sure we've gotten a lot of comments from the from the proposed rule making and the comment closed on march ninth and we're currently evaluating those those comments and you know are working as quickly as possible get through them last couple of years we have been working with a variety of agencies to make sure that we did have a plan in place should something happen and we took those plans and we did apply them for h one n one in regard to h one n one specifically we put together our response team we think every day we had principal meetings at the white house our deputy secretary was involved or chief of staff was involved we made sure that information was disseminated not only to the public but to the airline employees to airports making sure that that as much factual information got out as quickly as possible and as information as more factual information became available we scaled up and then down our response given given the threat t after the summer of two thousand and seven we looked at those areas where we might need short term actions based on what we saw airline staffing up to handle and what they were projecting in the airline guide and what the seats they were selling those congestion action teams are targeted at where we're going to see significant delays because of a build up of air traffic longer term we see next year and many of the operational is the port authority j f k example that i gave you in my oral statement where going to reduce ground delays by effort that's been put in the runway in the taxi ways there to give more flexibility to air traffic and to the airlines in getting on and off to the gate that's an example of a good project there were some projects in the seventy seven that were more  not within our scope things like knock down the ramada hotel to increase capacity at the airport so it was really a brainstorm phyllis and many of them were good project partially mr boswell we would take issue with the f a s statement that indeed thirty of the arc seventy seven initiatives have been substantially completed it seems like everyone has a little bit different count we would count  fourteen as being completed and having measurable benefits as as knowledge by the stakeholders and the port authority and the agency of those  i'm recalling six are in play now and they're in regular use another eight have been completed they've been documented there kind of kept on the shelf for when traffic and weather conditions would require them we do anticipate that they will produce benefits when they are in use however with the with the remainder sixteen the air traffic controllers have substantial problems with five of them and eleven have operational or technical difficulties and  the clear applicability of those to congestion in new york area is unclear at all well thank you you state one fact that led to the creation number of daylight as well as airline flight scheduling practices expanded by sometimes even just a few minutes the length of time that it that public schedule schedules indicated a flight would be in the air and they also expanded by sometimes just a few minutes the length of time that an air an aircraft would be on the ground together these affects these changes had the effect of reducing delays because the air each airline flight was better able to match its public apologize i didn't get here in time to hear the testimony but you know we had a hearing on some of this about a year ago and you probably covered some of this in your testimony that i didn't hear but will you tell me what to what the department in particular what their lines some of the things that have been since we got into this a year ago because from the department perspective  voluntary at this point but we backed that up with a notice of proposed rule making comments close on march ninth and we are currently reviewing those comments so so we can go toward the final roll at some point this year and  force in office has been stepping up their efforts as well so you're seeing of a full approach from the departments i will also say and i do mention this as well that we are changing how we report our statistics and you are now seeing us report long  tarmac lord on long onboard tarmac delays so that consumers are also aware of what's happening and and we are trying to communicate better with passengers to get information out there as best we can  from the f a a standpoint we've done a number of things you've seen nationally we opened three new runways in november at dulles o'hare and seattle a runway extension in philadelphia so we continue to work the infrastructure aggressively i think you have seen a lot of focus on the new york area as it drove a lot of the delays in two thousand and seven we put caps on those airports and the amount of air traffic that collaboratively with the airlines to try and spread the traffic over the day to minimize those peak hours this summer you've seen us particularly focus on using  whether tools to try and minimize how much weather impact the amount that those airports can handle on bad weather days and you've seen us do things like we put in accelerated  ground radar called the at the act that will help with looking at some of the ramp delays and the staging on getting in and out of the gate more quickly and better able to use those you know i  have to tell you that when that when i chaired the subcommittee we went out to seattle to hold a hearing about a proposed new runway there and we were met with over a thousand demonstrators against that runway and in fact in the building where we were they couldn't fit everybody and so there were the testimony was piped out doors to where several hundred of the demonstrators were and when somebody would say something they like there was about a one second or two second delay and then they would cheer and when they said something they didn't like there would be about a two second delay and then we'd hear all these boos coming from outside but i will never forget how controversial that runway was so you brought it back to mind when you sa airport infrastructure improvements the missile who did mention are significant have been significant factors in reducing congestion and delays between washington dulles and chicago and the sea tac runway that you mentioned they have improved the number of operations nationally that can be conducted by hundreds of thousands each year so they are very significant i'd like to pick up on something that miss one arado secretary for arado mentioned a few minutes ago and that was the department's rulemaking efforts i'd like to give great credit to the department for some finalized rules that it completed in the last year it increased the airline's baggage liability limited double the amount of compensation for passengers who get involuntarily bumped they strengthen the requirements by regulation for air passengers with disabilities the proposed rule making that's now under consideration and the department is reviewing comments takes further steps forward however i would take issue with what the department proposes at one point and i would urge the subcommittee and the department to do more in fact the proposed rule would require airlines to adopt contingency plans that would specify among other things the maximum tarmac delay before passengers essential needs would be required to be met or before passengers could be deplaned if they're held for long periods of time on the tarmac we think that that provision in fact should go further it should define what constitutes the extended period of time when its passengers central needs will be met and we would also suggest to the committee and the department that a range on delayed durations is appropriate before passengers must be deplaned  many of the major carriers who belong to eighty eight themselves have specified in their customer service plans an upper limit of five hours before the plane is and what the department or the subcommittee might consider in that us certainly appropriate thank you very much let me ask you this you know i hear one day i hear people say the economy's improving one day i hear the next day it's not improving and you know where are we in regard to the passenger traffic and what do you expect over the next few months have you seen the the numbers bumping up the planes and i found don't seem to be as crowded as they were actual numbers are more than happy to provide that ok but i have some information sir and it's information that we've gleaned from the airlines themselves as you know the the number of arrival flights is down last year from september through the end of this march by about ten percent the airlines themselves are scheduling now for the summer we pay from looking at their schedules that number of flights will be down another forty five percent  so they themselves in their business plans anticipate that number of passengers will be down right in this lobby and that's consistent with our forecast we come out with a national forecast in march and we also agree that we see it down five percent overall over the system there are some pockets where it's down even more places where discretionary travel like las vegas we are seeing places like new york  o'hare atlanta still demand stay strong so very but overall you are seeing the economy taking effect thank you very much like you are to the restaurants thank you very much  i guess i will propose this to anyone they like to respond to it several months ago we had hearings trying to ready the legislation will be on the floor tomorrow and we talked all about a passenger's bill of rights and what have you and i notice that you are considering a chronically delayed flight is unfair and a deceptive practice times the weather has a great deal to do with the late flights and i can appreciate the attention given to that but what we're in that weather mel to some degree in my area way off and i'd rather be on the ground waiting somewhere when that turbulence is going on how do you separate that from making sure that the planes are safe in terms of chronically delayed flights the standard are enforcement officers currently uses if it's delayed more than fifteen minutes on more than seventy percent of the of the operations per quarter within the roll making we do we  do proposed changes and we're currently evaluating i know the i g has has recommended some changes i know passenger rights groups have recommended some changes in terms of your safety question without a doubt our you know f a a can can time if they want to but without a doubt i mean we're we're very consistent that planes are not to take off unless conditions are safe and and you know all the safety checks before takeoff a car before aircraft takeoff do you do  of of the lateness when when there is a i don't know what's considered chronic how do you determine if it's chronic and what kind of analysis do you do currently ar  there have been some proposed changes to that and we are working through that through the notice of proposed rule making you know i was not impressed with mr baird teenie or whatever his name was when because  questioned him a number of times he didn't have any idea what was going on if i hope that would change on this new administration and that you would give more attention to your oversight of many complaints present in the numbers that f a a presents and its contractors are you guys aware of those differences and can you help explain perhaps why the discrepancy if i could m both good afternoon there are differences in flight delays statistics between f a a primarily and my office f a a uses a subset of airlines and a subset of causes and uses as its measure the flight plans that airlines file for each flight are office use is somewhat different set we look at all carriers all causes and as our measure we compare actual performance to what the airline published to consumers in advance as what its flight intentions would be i can understand why the f a a takes the route it does of course it's looking for areas of operations where it has influence so when it looks for causes of delay it's looking for causes that it can be linked to it's own operation of the naps and that's entirely appropriate our office has taken a different tact however we think that u s decision makers and certainly the flying public as consumers are more interested in what's the overall picture in delays and the two methods can result in significant differences for the seven or eight months that ended in march two thousand and nine that's a for example rick reported an on time performance of eighty eight percent under their measure by our measure the on time percentage was seventy eight percent so significant differences is yes but if i could also clarify the inspector general is absolutely right that we do have a data source we call it operations that are to air traffic system folks use on a daily basis to see how did the system work yesterday but we also do look at the same data sources that the i g looks at we do look at the b t s data that is collected by the department and compare that to the operations planning data and trying to keep that in sync and i will assure you that the testimony today and f a s portion of that is all consistent with the same data sources both of the department and the i g look that so we have been paying attention over the last year as we've had this conversation on delay statistic to make sure that we do use consistent data sources thanks very good test that's very helpful we have another issue that has come up in especially with the summer traffic and things i'm from arkansas and we appreciate your help appreciate all you guys do and really look forward to working with you this congress thank you very much chronically delayed flights as an unfair deceptive practice and i'm wondering what is the penalty for for violating this rule should it go into effect an unfair deceptive prado rule so if you fall under under the chronically delayed the standard that we currently use armed force an office will send a notice to a carrier based on whatever flights you know whether the carrier has one flight or ten flights for that quarter they get a warning twenty five twenty seven thousand five hundred per violation per violation have you ever imposed such fines on any airline i don't have that information but we can get that for you and do you currently have other instances orica certain conditions or situations that are already by road deemed an unfair and deceptive practice we do we have a variety of of issues of all under an unfair and effective practice i can give you a recent example when airline started charging baggage fees you know we said that it needed to be transparent people needed to know what those fees were up front and we told airlines where they had to put that information so that consumers were aware of those fees because we did consider that an unfair and deceptive practice so that information not be public and transparent and things of that nature so that's just an example of something else that would fall under that if you want more specifics we can get that for you a nd be very interested to know those kinds of conditions that are deemed unfair and deceptive with regard to passenger and customer service and those kinds of areas i don't need it for every other thing and then i the interested to know what kind of enforcement actions have been taken how many times have fines been imposed versus warning letters and all of that and to the extent that a lot of the information that has to do with how u s airlines perform customers is through customer complaints how easy is it for customers to complain when they encounter situations that are really irritating and or otherwise  basically they can go to the web we have an address of air consumer dot d o t dot gov and they can go right on the web site file a web based complaint and it gets sent immediately to our force an office for them to take a look at and i actually was just on the web site over the weekend then today to make sure everything was up and running and it is very easy it's very easily formatted for consumers but there is also an address our d o t headquarter address which i can provide to the subcommittee for the record as well as a two or three telephone number where people can call in as well when it be even easier if airlines just pass out a piece of paper with the this kind of information on it and maybe we can check off because of course i've experienced various kinds of delays and everything else but i've never filed a complaint but if someone were to give me a sheet of paper there i would probably fill that out and that might give you a more accurate picture of what's really going on with that even the contemplated we can definitely take a look at that again in context of n p r and you know we're taking all recommendations by passenger rights groups by the i g by members i mean you guys we've spoken through through the provisions in the f a a reauthorization bill so we're taking all that into consideration as we move forward  proposal you should be more specific as to the limits for the delays and said or in terms of hours would you would you consider that a reasonable suggestion and would you think about that all of that would be in the context of the notice of a pole for making so i can't speak specifically to it but i can say that we take recommendations very seriously and we are taking those into account as we move forward on the proposal making thank you thank you m thank you mr chairman this question is i suppose addressed to actually interview a member from california this week asked me if i was on the aviation subcommittee to tell me of what i can only tell you is a in my view a shocking revelation she told me that a similar and other member had had a similar experience this was a member who was supposed to land in california she landed in california but in oakland and she was told that they did not have enough fuel to get to her last stop on i don't remember it was l a or san francisco she said there were no inordinate waits you know the normal kind of wait could you explain how that could happen i know once the high price of fuel hit that airlines looked at what the weight of the planes were and how best to economize that said i think they are incentivized to be as safe as possible and so it is surprising that you would find a situation like that those are the kinds of instances we would want to know about and if you have particulars i think we would would love to have more conversation with you we take those items very seriously because they do go directly to air traffic safety thank you was very careful and responsible member i'm i want to suggest that she's a wreck this meticulous and she said there was another member who had a similar conditions even given what frankly is a lot of sympathy i have for the airlines really cast doubt upon your oversight and i will see to it that you get that information could i ask you are probably it's a commuter air aircraft trained in the same way as pilots on larger aircraft and don't all speak at once i'll talk to that in the early ninety's the f a a put in a number of rules and worked toward one level of safety for regional air carriers and mainline air carriers  i think we have looked at the colgan air tragedy as a great loss some of the information that came out at the n t s b hearing raises issues that we will be looking at  and are did they are they treated are they trained in the same way or not today they have the same regulations and the same requirements the same qualifications and the same qualifications now that said you know there are differences you tend to get less experienced pilots at the regional airlines but with them moving up in degree as the main lines as they get more experience but that is an area we will be looking at very closely we are just four minutes rater testified yesterday that that is an area he is very much focused on and intends to look at very closely when i think i'll move up they obviously should not be moving out with a without without having comfortable with not exact qualifications that was a bit up more we lart learn the more we are inclined to believe that was a preventable tragedy we are used to drive these we cannot be prevented in the airlines and extremely sympathetic with those and this is very troubling  all levon the nation's capital capital of the in many ways the world has been without both helicopter and aviation general aviation service for all intents and purposes only when a few years ago before the president of georgia came to power only when the last majority was in power and there was wholesale agreement within the committee did we get any return of just general aviation service and that was only after the chairman of the four committee in this very room threatened contempt world that seven years after eight years after whatever it turns out to be not only haven't we are not capable of protecting our capital a region that not only contains the entire federal presence but one of the highest producing economies parts of our economy what you might expect may we all have less of that because of climate change but that obviously is not what's happened here in response to the committee we got what can only be called an insult to the committee this is ok you want it you want general aviation in the nation's capital committee the anyone coming in or want to general aviation flight has to carry a federal marshal of whom they are very few bailable has to stop someplace away from the capital a another port for that they call a gateway has to have armed guards on board huge amounts  of paperwork so the nation's capital has gone from two hundred flights per month to two hundred per year in essence the federal government through regulations has deliberately shut down general aviation in the nation's capital meanwhile that part of the country where one might imagine general avia flights might be most hazardous was up and running within days after nine eleven new york city was relieved of any restrictions with then days and   of the nation's capital so many years after nine eleven we work our regulations in accord with the department of homeland security i understand the impact on ga i think the f a a over the years has been very much an advocate of general aviation and the benefits that it gives to the federal economy to the extent that we can help work with the department of homeland security and t to work with issue we look forward to engaging with the committee are let me let me let me ask you to do this and that to general finance to be helpful and i understand that you may not have expected this question my staff has been told that there is there exists a timeline which may mean an actual revision could i ask that within the next fourteen days you get to the chairman of this subcommittee a copy of the timeline for returning general aviation ronald reagan chairman thank you i've got some easy ones here i would like to make sure that our airlines are instructing our pilots and how to use their microphone from the cockpit back to the passenger area  oftentimes i can understand them and so i don't know whether they're tired i don't care or what so that would help us the consumers a great deal also i don't know whether to imprison the people who are designing the seats on some of our aircraft or should we have a national contest to come up with a comfortable comfortable seating and i think it is since it is a clause a monopoly and a privilege guaranteed or given to the airlines to serve our public they really have no voice i think a question was asked about how do we as a compliant and i think all of us that have been on the airlines have no idea who designed some of the seats and  long we've had to set them on deplaning i think you would need to be aware that there's probably fifteen to even as high as twenty percent on some flights who are clinically claustrophobic and this is not a complaint that they're making idle e these are people who are or have have panic disorders who are completely in control they probably geared up and sucked up and got on that airplane and have someone that is insensitive to their weight i think is intolerable and i don't think we should tolerate it as a country nor should we allow an industry to serve us that's not sensitive so that i know the bottom line is important but i think this is also very very important because you're going to get some reactions from some of your passengers that are going to make the headlines and it's going to be through no fault of their own they're just on they can't control themselves i'm a physician by the way by training so i look so sort of that the other thing is how often do we culture the vents and the air for methicillin resistant staph resistant tb and other infectious and mold on our airlines is it done randomly or is it none consistently and is it occur that that we could probably prevent with some very easy microbiology want to one so that would that would be a big help and the other thing is our regional airlines and the and  regional pilots that are maybe young up and coming major pilots are there do they go by the same sleep days flying that that all said obviously in light of what happened with colgan we will be looking at those issues very closely thank you very much mr chairman thank you thank you madrid of  appreciate the opportunity to appear today as both my written testimony in the testimony from the first panel make clear the airline industry is making progress in dealing with the measurable steady progress in dealing with customer service concerns all of the trends that we look at are headed in the right direction that translates into improving customer service the progress has come for a variety of reasons not least of which is been the intensive carrier focus on on time performance and the development of programs to constantly monitor delays in alert top management to extended periods of extended delay these programs along with the companion effort to develop contingency plans that mr crisis will be discussing in more detail i have got a long way toward meeting the needs of our customers we know of course that there continue to be rare situations in which prolonged delays do occur and we appreciate and indeed share the frustrations of passengers on those rare delayed flights that we all read about in the newspapers or c n n t v there are some who would call for legislation or regulation to prohibit these thankfully rare events we think that would be a mistake as i mentioned we're making measurable progress with some twenty thousand flights a day or more than six million a year we clearly cannot afford to manage by anecdote nor do we think it wise to legislate or regulate by looking only at anomalies the people who are closest to the situation tell us that hard deadlines to return a flight to a terminal or otherwise the plane passengers are going to result in more rather than fewer inconvenience passengers we believe them and we think you should as well my testimony describes in more detail why that is the case now we know too that the key drivers of delays misconnected baggage missed and cancelled flights and all the other ills of the system are bad weather and system congestion we recognize to the slumping slumping economy and reduced transportation demand have temporarily remove some of the stresses from the system in effect what we have now is a brief window of opportunity to expedite the deployment of our long overdue modernized air traffic management system we think it's possible to get now jan as we call it substantially in place in the next three to four years again as my written statement discusses by making three or five about five new technologies and the procedures to allow them to really deliver system capacity a key national priority we know that system performance along with beneficial results for customers and the environment can be dramatically and permanently improved even after the economy and transportation demand come back if we do not act now though we know we will all be deeply frustrated you also asked to hear a bit about the industry's response to the recent h one n one flu outbreak while airlines and the f a a are not in the public health business we work very hard to protect the health of our employees and our customers with the very first reports of the outbreak we were committed and constantly with c d c as well as other government agencies and we work with the airports and our international partners to ensure a coordinated response following c d c s established protocols of infection control airline stock can sanitizers increase the supply of masks for use with sick passengers and took other commonsense safety health precautions consistent with c c guidelines equally important we began communicating with our passengers and our employees all of the information we were receiving from the c d c and the w h o finally i wanted to take just a moment to comment on an absolutely ludicrous suggestion by some in the airport community that the limited experience that some airlines have had in generating ancillary revenues recently have left them somehow awash with cash and justified a massive twenty six percent tax increase in the form of an increase p f c charge a passenger facility charge but the fact that kerry has had some limited success with modest new revenue generation does not change the fact that the airlines have lost thirty six billion dollars from two thousand and one through two thousand and eight with data just coming out the other day indicating the two thousand and eight losses alone amounted to some nine point five billion dollars it's worth remembering that at the core aviation is all about the profitable sale of air transportation at some point the airlines who drive this economic engine that sustains government services airports in a wide share of the nation's economy have got to make the kind of sustained earnings necessary to support their cost of capital if that does not occur the future is going to look very dark not just for the airlines but for our economy in general and increased p f c is not the place to start improving the situation thank you and i look forward to responding your questions  mr boswell good afternoon and thank you for inviting me to participate in this here i'm here today to provide insight into airport contingency planning i'd like to begin by saying that safe flight is accomplished through close industry wide partnership communication collaboration and coordination across all service providers contingency planning is no different whether an emergency is caused by weather or a contagious disease there is a need to have all service providers open for business and actively partnering to address passengers needs in reality it has been largely left to the airlines and f a a to accomplish this task however there are critical services that can only be provided by the other aviation stakeholders such as airports t s a c b p concessionaires and ground transportation providers the good news is that the aviation industry developed a model contingency plan to address this issue to the t we have implemented at d f w first off and most importantly the plan calls for airport service providers to simply stay open for business the same holds true for t s a and c b as the situation warrants secondly the plan calls for all stakeholders to share and integrate their contingency plans to ensure that all parties are aware of what is occurring and to enable mutual support in addressing passengers needs finally calls for partnering between the airlines in airports for the ground handling and planning of passengers to avoid the types of unacceptable situations that have been experienced by passengers stranded on aircraft diverted flights are called out for special attention the plan recommends  the f a a air lines of void diverting international arriving flights to airports lacking c b p resources once again all stakeholders are expected to be open for business to properly receive and process flights this includes the ability to gate or properly ground handle the aircraft and provide concessions support and t s a and c b p passenger screening is maybe required d o t earlier this year issued an n p r m for enhancing passenger protections are requiring airline contingency plans i would offer that airline plans should include a requirement to coordinate their plans with all airports which they provide scheduled for charter service i'd now like to talk to the value of this partnerships or relates to emergency response to contagious disease outbreaks or pandemics first extensive partnering has been developed in effectively deployed at the local airport level to address diseases such as sars bird flu influenza ebola and the like additional partners are brought to the table including c d c and local public health officials to provide effective realtime and tailored response guidance this expanded team currently addresses a wide variety of medical concerns including yearly flu season disease outbreaks the system was placed into action on april twenty eighth a b a w i e airport one an air tran flight arriving from cannes coon had two individuals on board exhibiting flu like symptoms air tran contacted b w i officials who activated their emergency plan which included contacting the c d c quarantine station in washington d c while the two individuals were found not to have the h one n one flu it did show the system worked can we do better absolutely while public health issues vary greatly a process for aligning stakeholders at a level similar to that developed in the model contingency plan i just spoke to does not yet exist however i do know that the o t is working with a c i north america a t a and ion as well as c d c and the h s on developing just such a plan in summary the challenge is to ensure everyone is open for business and continuously communicating collaborating and coordinating their efforts to address any and all passenger need he's in close and i want to thank you for your support of the funding necessary for airports to be able to finance necessary safety and capacity infrastructure you support of an increase in the p f c user fee as well as the increase in a f p funding is greatly appreciated also as chairman of the aviation group for the transportation research board i want to express my sincere appreciation to the subcommittee which helped create in this highly ineffective airport cooperative research program thank you thank you ms friend thank you mr about as well as the world's largest flight attendants union we do appreciate having the opportunity to testify  today's hearing and as the front line employees responsible for the safety and security of the aircraft cabin we provide a unique perspective on these issues i would first like to focus on the topic of emergency contingency planning the recent health emergencies surrounding the spread of the h one n one virus once again brought air travel and the spread of infectious disease to the forefront of the government and the public's attention by nature of our work flight attendants come in contact with hundreds and possibly thousands of passengers every day and we are keenly aware of our role and the possible transmission and prevention of a disease during a public health emergency our interest is not only to protect our members from exposure but also to minimize the possibility of our members inadvertently spreading the disease in this most recent public health emergency and in previous outbreaks such as sars in two thousand and three we called on the f a a to issue directions to airlines that would minimize the risk of exposure to flight attendants and to do our part to prevent the spread of an infectious disease this year and face it anyway sent a letter to the f a a in the very early days of the h one n one virus outbreak we requested that the f a a issuing jency order to all u s carriers week wiring them to take immediate and specific steps among those steps were required meant that the airlines provide flight attendants with non latex gloves and masks at the airlines allow flight attendants with flu like symptoms themselves to call in sick without the risk of discipline that they require the airlines to develop implement and enforce passenger screening standards as recommended by the w h o the c d c or the relevant national health official and that they require that all u s airlines flying to and from mexico have operative potable water systems and soap and sanitary towels in place for hand washing during flight operations the f a a is response was totally unsatisfactory and unfortunately most carriers did not implement these basic and effective steps during the after ike of h one n one instead the airline management in this country seems more concerned about appearance and views of flight attendant marketing tools rather than our proper role as safety and security professionals the health of flight attendants and the traveling public should not be a subject of the marketing concerns of airline management in order to minimize the threat posed by a public health emergency several permanent and mandated steps must be taken to mitigate that threat first we believe it is necessary to provide and apply osha like or basic osha workplace safety and health protections the aircraft cabin workplace osha protections would provide an excellent benchmark for reacting in a proactive manner during public health emergencies another permanent step that can be taken immediately relates to the aircraft on board water supply it is not uncommon for crew and passengers to find an inoperable lavatory on a flaw right which will limit timely access for flight attendants and passengers to properly wash their hands we advocate that at a minimum each class of service in the aircraft must have at least one operational lavatory for an aircraft to be allowed to operate we also believe that aircraft for both international and domestic flights must outlook for summer travel and as i sit here today mr chairman i have decades of experience working in this industry and as much as i would love to say that there's a magic wand that we can wave and make the summer travel season flawless unfortunately we all know that that's impossible the load factors will increase particularly as capacity is reduced mother nature will cook up the inevitable summer storm the aircraft will stack up on runways and circle above each summer and during other weather events throughout the year we hear the horror stories and we get it we get it because we're there to the voluntary measures by airlines and the attempts to enacted so called passenger bill of rights legislation are simply band aid approaches to a much larger systemic problem that plagues our nation's aviation system the solution often referred to as next gen needs to be rebranded as now j as the work to update our air traffic control system must be done as quickly and safely as possible any passenger bill of rights no matter how well intended will not solve the complex air traffic control problems until we upgrade the outdated equipment that currently cannot properly handle aircraft traffic and plan for predictable summer storms and current environment our sympathy for a passenger bill of rights is tempered by what we know will occur if such legislation isn't acted the nation's flight attendants will become trapped between federal mandates and management's inability or their unwillingness to follow the law the nation's flight attendants always put in a no win situation when the mandates are not followed management is not in the cabin having to explain the violations but we are the airport authorities are not on board to explain why gate space or facilities are not available and extended taxiway waits are occurring we believe that the best solution for flight attendants passengers and the aviation industry is for the house and senate to follow the lead of this committee and pass the f a a reauthorization legislation now so that work can begin to fix the real problems this beleaguered industry faces again i thank the committee for giving us this opportunity and i would enjoy answering any questions that you may have  thank you mr boswell ranking member pete try and members of the committee on behalf of flyers rights dot org i thank you for inviting me again to appear at this hearing on consumer rights we appreciate the airline passenger rights provisions have included in h r nine fifteen the f a a reauthorization act and we recognize the improvements that you made compared to last year's bill but let's not break our arms patting ourselves on the back for requiring that airlines provide basic human city's like food water temperature controls and working bathrooms not when passengers are being stranded still on the tarmac for seven eight even nine hours within just the past few weeks air canada and three other canadian airlines have voluntarily instituted a ninety minute limit on tarmac delays that's because a very tough no nonsense canadian airline passenger bill of rights is currently making its way through parliament that would limit tarmac stranding stu one hour the bill is the three ten and the author of the bill jim alloway member of parliament is actually here with us today to with my testimony and bruce cran who is the president of the consumer association of canada they're working very hard to get their bill passed here at home though the f a a reauthorization bill leaves it up to the airlines themselves to decide when will be able to get off the plane and back to the terminal no uniform limits at all last month in philadelphia a blind sixty two year old former interpreter for the european union was dragged off a plane in handcuffs just for asking why the aircraft was still sitting on the tarmac and how long it would be there paying passengers deserve to know they won't be sitting on the tarmac for nine hours we do want to acknowledge the provision you added requiring that airports receiving international flights have contingency plans for dealing with stranded aircraft it's about time too often passengers returning from international flights have been stranded on arrival for hours at a time but absent  plan regarding the airlines to allow the passengers off the airport plans will be moot just last month our hotline received a call from a passenger onboard delta flight five ten coming in from the turks and  bound for atlanta but diverted to columbia south carolina because of a thunderstorm he and his family sat on the columbia tarmac for almost six hours no food no water with restrooms that had stopped working his two year old had not eaten in ten hours after getting off the plane the hundred thirty or so passengers were herded into a concrete a concrete sub to reign in room with twenty chairs for almost one hundred forty people and there they stayed for another hour all because both the airport and the airline lacked adequate plans for dealing with an incoming international flight here's what flyers rights dot org believes ought to be included in the f a a reauthorization act this year a single in forcible industry wide limit on the amount of time passengers can be held on board an aircraft on the tarmac we call it a right of deplane meant passengers call it basic common sense a requirement that airlines produce contingency plans for international flights landing at domestic airports airport contingency plans alone are not enough as we saw with flight five ten i ask you to think of the people who have contacted flyers rights org in the last month a seventy two year old woman a diabetic stuck on the austin tarmac on a diversion for four hours without food or water her daughter is frightened to death trying to find out where she was she also has early on stage alzheimer's a blind man hauled off to philadelphia to a philadelphia jail just because he asked how long the irlen was going to keep him on the tarmac just try to imagine eight or nine hours in a seal screaming children the people in coach in the middle seats the business people who miss appointments and productive time for them these are not the friendly skies it's time they treated the american flying public and paying customers customers not like cattle i'd like to address the frequency in which this happens it's a daily occurrence that plane sit for three hours or more two thousand and eight provided data of thirteen hundred twenty flights that sat for three hours or more on the tarmac that's one hundred thirty two thousand people that sat for more than three hours on the tarmac last year james may testified a few days ago that the economic loss to passengers due to flight delays is forty one billion dollars a year that seems to me like a double whammy to the flying public who is already smarting from the economy thank you very much for letting me testify and i look forward to respect for the men and women that the cockpit should our lives our hands but i tell you what i've got a just a great appreciation for those flight attendants put up with us the public there are a great bunch they try hard but there are things we can do better and i think we're working at it and richard luck and i know you've got some things i would like to offer you some time well mr chairman i have a group of people waiting for me out here in the waiting room so i won't ask any questions but i would like to say this several years ago i heard on the n p r news that the russian aeroflot aeroflot system sometimes had delays as long as four days the plane wouldn't fly and then they said we'll come back tomorrow we we're so we're so fortunate to have the aviation system that we have in this country it's the best in the world now everybody should always be trying to do better in do more if you lose the desire to improve it's sad for you and for the people you work for but there's a human nature tendency that if people have nine nine good flats and one bad one the one they'll tell everybody about is the bad one i fly and for many years now i've flown at least a couple times a week and sometimes more and i am amazed  i think it's miraculous how many of these of flights arrive on time and i'm amazed we have so many hundreds and so many millions and millions of kno pastiches passengers that arrive on time and safely but that we have all these hundreds of millions of banks that with just a tiny percentage that are lost and i and i think it's good that the people here pointing out some problems in ways that things can improve but i also think we need to realize that we have by far the best aviation system in the world and we need to be a little more grateful and appreciative of what we have where they updated to reflect the recommendations of the task force all of our members do have contingency plans in place and they are in fact updated all the time after the recent delta incident they went back and updating that plan once again there were plans in place for dealing with the arriving international flight at that particular airport unfortunately the airport had been reconfigured during the period between which the plan was made and when the diversion occurred these are now being updated on an annual basis to make absolutely positive that we can to quote would you elaborate on that in the immediate aftermath of the the reporting of the h one n one flu we went into constant communication with the c d c and with a whole qadri of government agencies that were involved with that we also were communicating as i said with the airport community with the international aviation community and with our employees to get the best possible information out there as quickly as possible not being unduly alarming but at the same time dealing responsibly with these issues we think it was quite successful in the after action assessment of things there are obviously some plans that were put in place following sars that expected a longer period of preparation to be available to the united states to number of workshops we invited all of our airports that service diversion airports to d f w airport to participate in that and what came from that is all of those airports have developed response plans as it relates to an integrated fashion atlanta has also held a workshop i know that l a and pittsburgh are also going to be hosting these things to develop and implement these plans but i do not believe that it's been fully throughout the system this friend airlines provide appropriate guidance to flight attendants on h one n one they passed on the link to the c d c web site is essentially what they did some more better than others we actually conducted a survey of the twenty airlines we represent asking them three specific questions about one did they were they provided and did they have where they relaxed disciplinary policy for flight attendants who thought they might be suffering something like symptoms and did they were they willing to accommodate schedule i just meant for pregnant and or immune compromised by attendants and the overwhelming response to numbers two and three was absolutely not and there was some limited response to number one the reason being that airline management seems to think that flight attendants  protecting themselves by the use of non i tex gloves as would frighten the passengers so they most of them did not give permission for that even when flying into the high risk areas  into mexico so it was which is why we have repeatedly asked the f a a to mandate these sorts of provisions because we can't count on our employers to voluntarily do force pointed and my role was to represent the consumer side and i was the only nonprofit consumer advocate on the task force i believe there were thirty six members and it was a learning experience for me i've not been on a task force before so i didn't really know what to expect in the end result one thing i would like to say is that jim crites was a leader that came in was brilliant ideas and frameworks and structures and a true understanding of how to actually solve some of the problems that we're discussing so and he has implemented at dallas fort worth exactly what he thought could be done and believes is possible and there are a lot of airports that have not adopted it and that's why we saw what we saw columbia south carolina and some of the especially some of the celebrated international flights like the talk airlines flight in their own mexico many of those they simply didn't have a way to get the passengers off and put them in a sterile room although on the task force the one goal all of branch that was offered was by t s a and they actually did a presentation for us where they said we will allow the airports and encourage the airports to have three things available one a sterile room where they can be playing international passengers on a diverted flight to that those people will be able to be accompanied out of the room and back to go to the restrooms and get food for themselves and three that they will be able to be rian planes without having to go through security again and they very strongly recommended that that all of the airports adopt that especially if there are airports that get diverted flights that you know receive and are on the list to receive them well we're a little discouraged that the airport more airports haven't done said our our members our airline members all have contingency plans in place which they update on a regular basis they work with the airports that they serve to make sure that those contingency plans are effective at those airports as to whether or not each of the airports as an independent contingency plan i really not in a position to comment at this point just for conversation you know some of us i know some people even here in th congress that they don't have a heart problem but they might have a physical day that can go away they're going to sit out there for more than two or three hours the most so they've got to have some kind of some kind of facilities contingency plans that we have in place today if a flight is delayed for a prolonged period in the on the order of two or three hours most of the carriers do offer the opportunity to deplane if that's at all possible they also make accommodations for i mean they're commendations made on board to provide necessities for the passengers right now there's been a lot of stories about all these nonfunctional lavatories that basically have not proven to be the case when we've examined them in more detail the fact is that what we what we are concerned about is not the contingency plans we believe those are out there carriers are making hard calls on their own to determine when a plane should be come back in from the from the runway if necessary the problem is if we impose a an absolute deadline of say three hours carriers are then going to to manage not to to to violate that deadline so we're going to start seeing airplanes coming in at two hours and fifteen minutes two hours and forty five minutes so that you don't break the three hour what will happen then is we will have substantially more cancellations we will have substantially more passengers we are unable to accommodate on the next scheduled flight we'll have people waiting in airports or in the city where the airport is located potentially for days when they could have gotten out and only the airline is in the the airline is in the best position to know if that flight has a fairly good potential to take off before three hours and twenty five  and that's what we're trying to avoid is a is a legislated or regulated hard deadline it's just it's going to make the system less user friendly rather than more user friendly but i can say this from a frequent flyer situation it really helps for the crew to keep you informed