well the regular meeting of the water resources committee please come to order today is august nineteenth twenty fifteen and it's approximately five minutes after nine i'm the chair of the water resources committee my name son and i regret that we're going to have to call this meeting to a recess and if you could be patient we're having some technical difficulties that we have to resolve before we can proceed with the meeting so just be patient hang with us we're going to try to get things going as soon as we can thank you for being here the meeting is now in recess  with the meeting please come back to order thank you very much for that break we had the opportunity to fix our technological difficulties you know you love technology and you hate it because when it works it's wonderful and when it goes bad everything is just totally messed up but i thought it was worth taking the time because i really really want you folks to see this presentation again i introduced myself i have my vice chair this morning mike vick to reno good morning my chair good thank you we also have kyle ito the supervising plumbing inspector thank you is supposed to be nearby he was here i'm sure he'll be returning quickly our first deputy corporation counsel we have her the engineering program manager for the water department and he's famous and we also and we also have a new addition to the water department that we're very happy to have with us today and that's rob dobro bliss and he's a planner six with the department of water supply welcome very happy to have you with us today and he'll be helping with the presentation also have my committee staff who are things they work over the testimony portion of this right now and we are going to get going with the prison taishan we have a presentation today and it's my intention to explore options to make available more water for our country residence and to clarify possible mis information related to some very important subjects that are brought up constantly in our meetings and that is in regard to fixture comes greywater reuse and water catchment tanks i was very fortunate that somebody gave me a couple yours mailed me a copy of  deal and it's in titled san diego green water options getting a closer look and when i saw it i said oh this is wonderful we need to hear about this you know we're looking for ways to use grey water and i want to see what other people are doing we can learn so much from looking at other people who don't have to invent the wheel when other people have already done it so this isn't just an option we're not asking you to vote for it or supported or anything but my intent today is really information i want us all to be educated and i need it just as bad remember i'm still fairly new to being the chair of the water committee i mean my eighth month i can't believe it it seems like eight days but you know we're all in the learning mode and we have a lot of people with us who know these things and when we listen to them and they say oh no you can't do that if we want to argue and say oh well they're just bureaucrats they don't care but there is science and reasoning behind some of the decisions that they they share with us i think most of the decisions so this isn't learning day to day and i'm really grateful thank you very much for coming out to be with us and this will be broadcast again on a cuckoo it'll be rebroadcast of people who couldn't be here today will have the opportunity to see it last night we had a meeting up at the cool a community center in regards to the cesspool issue and we were very very proud that we had the largest audience so far that has attended any of these talks stories that they're going through the state talking to people about the proposed rules that they're to make admission they want rules the these are proposals that we're looking at right now and it was very informal the lady that came is the head of the whole business and you very open very friendly allowed us all to talk and ask questions so it was a really good dialogue about the issues and the proposed rules and we have passed out the stuff that i got last night it'll be it so you can pick it up up here if you don't already have it and you can go on the website and really look at the details of what they're proposing but i want you to understand that those are just proposals and they are seriously out in the community trying to get information and when they have more information they're going to propose revised rules again and then they will have formal public hearings in all of the areas that we will still have an opportunity to react to the proposed changes we have done an excellent job here on maui i want to think everybody we got together we stop the craziness that was going to happen last year and now we have much better rules they implemented a lot of the information that we asked for in the changes and so we do make a difference i want you guys to know they're coming to these meetings and listening is just not taking up space you are making a difference we do have the power to impact rules but it takes time and energy so be patient and let's keep going and i'm going to try to be with you i have a few more months left in my efforts and so i want to make a difference before we're done so i can think you and  showing you the video so let's all pay attention and after this is over they we're going to have testimony and then the do we want to do all of the presentations before testimony  yes i think let's do all the presentations and then we'll do just the money and then we can hear what you guys have to say that's some good numbers yes i think we'll get the most bang out of the book you know we don't have a whole lot of time so let's get something kingston's father b smith estimates it costs two hundred fifty to three hundred dollars to put in the system he had help from a company called h two ohm it involved laying one and a half inch p v c pipe from the laundry room through the garage we follow the in the garage and then came out through the well here and out into the back yard where they have planted four new fruit trees so for each basin we had to dig a space or an area of about two feet by five feet so is very simple to implement it doesn't require a lot of knowledge as long as you know how to glue p v c together i think you have a great chance of getting it right the smiths family of four do about five loads of laundry a week and they're older top loading washing machine uses about forty gallon so water so we're using roughly two hundred domes of water each week over the course of a year it's about over ten thousand gallons of water you know that would have otherwise just been put into the sewer system so now it's going into our landscape and it's being utilized to grow fruits so i think that's empowering installing a grey water system using the world or from your laundry to work in your yard could be as simple as i do it yourself project but if you want to recycle water from anywhere else in your home it becomes a whole lot more complicated than a skeeters a new housing development is experimenting with a more ambitious grey water system we take water residential water efficiency to a whole new level two out of every three gallon the home can get a new life by being recycled first and as with texas water which is developed a nationally permitted water treatment system for your home so this is the seventy five gallon collector that the grey water the water from your washing machines that bathtubs and sinks come into so that water is collected and sent to the next street or in ten gallon batches we take soapy water from your house from your shower to your bass your washing machine and we take it through the system and it comes out where it smells and looks like tap water the water goes through five different filter systems but first and says it would cost about fifteen thousand dollars to retrofit your home to build it into a new home cost about ten thousand steve ruffner of k b homes says that's worth it to customers who don't want to risk losing their investment in landscaping during the drought these customers part of our approach to them is you'll never have to stress about that because you're not using any potable water the water like this don't pencil out the same way solar does that lead not yet you can install the last comprehensive system for closer to one thousand dollars but it would take years to recoup the costs with savings on your water bill but say this miss it's not so much about saving money it's about making the most of a doing resource so for me it wasn't the green water system was it about saving money it was more about utilizing the water to the fullest extent possible and growing food in the process now i don't feel guilty doing laundry i do it and i'm ok i think that gives you a lot of food for thought about the idea of greywater you know i've been interested in we were before i got to the council and i've had a horrible time trying to loosen up so that we can do some of this but we're seeing that technology and we'll talk about this a little bit more later so now we're going to proceed with the presentation from the department and mr rob the roadless will be helping determine how much water had flowed to the meter and then we would send bills based on that one consumption meters sizes really vary from the smallest maximum flaw it's a labile which goes into the last item which is american water works association or the national association where they as far as water meters they cover everything from water meters on how you make home what kind of materials you can use the size of the connection fittings for each series of meters you got different capacities so everything as far as water meters they control a city for each meter size for example five eight centimeters you have a maximum flow of twenty gallons a minute trick or eight meters thirty and on the right column you have what because fixed units  have thirty one fixed units so these are kind of like to give ins you have to work with if say you have a property with a five inch meter you kind of stuck with these capacities so when one comes in for a building permit for  assign a value which they call six units to create it's like a probability curve where you can start off with a few fixtures  called so we use that to determine when building permits come in and we try to work with the customer to see how much more bathrooms you could fit put in or if they could build o it but again the protection they're always available to answer questions so if you have problems filling in this form so if you look at the form do you have like three main columns in the upper half  water fixtures if you notice on the right side you have the low flow fixture valley which is less so obviously if you have more low flow fixtures you can have you be able to have more fixtures on the property a mixture of no flaw and none of low devices and irrigation so staff here is a help for the work with the customers and sometimes if they need to retrofit or really meaning they replace one of their then sometimes all you know you'll make it work otherwise sometimes it doesn't so it's unfortunate but that's the situation sometimes ok that's part one and robert's going to do rules some things that apply agree water systems and the benefits and risks and then all research some questions for some some types of questions and some answers so what are great water systems well water systems  diverts the water you use in your bathrooms bathroom sink showers and also from your washing machines and redistribute it redistributed back to your for gratian purposes these sources are what households you know when you think consumption you're consuming between fifty to eighty percent of your total potable water usage from the bathroom and laundry and for those of you have irrigation you're talking about the exact opposite almost fifty percent go happening here in hawaii why some of the other ones are multifamily mix using commercial are not really being applied yet here so the system components a great water system you're talking about distribution and collection of piping valves and connectors you have a containment tank more simple design just includes a filtration basic filtration for debris and so on but more complex systems will have an neutralization tank as well and then you also have water pumps for more complex systems those are large branches i'm sure which i'll explain so here's the first diagram as you can see only subterranean or subsurface application you c see diverted from the house comes down the pipe and into a great water holding tank which has a basic effluent screen so the basic one would just have that screen more advanced would have you know maybe a neutralization tank as you can see it has to be a certain depth of the ground most people have a misconception about grey water they think that you can just use green water and spray it you're not allowed to air eight grey water and laundry and as you can see you have your laundry machine and you have your sinks your bath tub and showers so this is really constitutes most of the basic or more advanced branch systems great water systems and it comes down it goes into a filter and a storage tank but when you're talking about filtration like i said before if there is a possibility that you can think that you can have water being held in a containment so here's a more detailed branch square water system from the bathroom and as you can see there's a difference between grey water and black water that's another misconception a lot of people have there's a difference basically grey water does have some biological and some chemical content in it from your showering in your you know from your sinks but it differs in quantity so you're talking about black water from your toilets that's that's a high high percentage so it's considered black water and so but you can see here how the gray water systems actually connected in case to the sewerage in case there's a backup or some kind of event where you need to switch to let the these are components and parts you could buy from your local hardware store and as you saw from the video we're talking about you know two hundred to seven hundred fifty depending on the house and obviously there's direct cost and there's also indirect cost so when you're talking about when you're talking about pricing they're not really mentioning the cost for labor and indirect cost for ongoing maintenance of that system so with installation you're looking at more like four hundred fifty to two thousand depending on if you're going to hire landscape system there's nothing in the in the guideline that will prevent you from doing that a lot of states allow that but if you have a larger system in the u s india which might want to be involved in that kind of process just to make sure that there's no contamination also the second one here branch systems from laundry and bathrooms these are probably what most of you might use you could buy kits for that or if you know anything about plumbing you could probably do yourself but that will range between one thousand to about eight thousand for this kind of system and with insulation looking at maybe two thousand to fourteen thousand plus again a lot of these systems really depends on your  geisha needs are and then for a pump system for more complex systems these are larger homes where you want to utilize more water from different source bathrooms more than one bathroom for example  that will cost between fifteen hundred to ten thousand dollars and with insulation again twenty five hundred to fifteen thousand plus and then when you have a large property some people might have  large landscaping you're might be looking at you know pumps you have to install to get the water out of your tank and distribute the water great water to your geisha needs that could range between two thousand to thirty thousand and course insulation another thirty five hundred to thirty five thousand and again a lot of the costs will come from hiring laborers and contractors and  landscape architects a lot of you don't want to do your own digging back there if you have a large property so as you can see branch just it can vary greatly with complex designs costing much more than a basic cost much more in the basic install a grid water system that's usually not the case you have to really look at the irrigation needs of your property because a great water is not allowed to be pooled so if your consumption is really high and you have a really geisha need to get imagine that you're going to have to somehow get rid of that grey water for irrigation purposes not let it sit for more than twenty four hours and you're in your tank without you know some kind of special filtration process the video you saw earlier had a dance it was pretty advanced but you could also see how complex it could be so if you bought a thirteen thousand fifteen thousand dollars system needs to have to maintain that and you have to stand a chance of it for hawaii i was just saying single use residential application only now there are some instances on the island i don't know all of but all of them but at least for like for example commercial you have the hyatt regency that recently installed a great water system  but they from my understanding they have a special use permit for that kind of thing so everybody else using great water system you know it's basically just for single use resident shop with haitian only has to be underground subterranean irrigation only not connected to a potable water system which means it has to be a standalone system but it could be connected to sewer survey of the property and location for the system as required so before you go out and start spending money do a survey contractors go out and get an estimate for how much you may cost for materials and supplies soil and maximums or absorption data for  dimension drawings with specifications in a plot plan so your designs have to be submitted first if it's a more complex system should be submitted for review and deal which you probably also want take a look at it and then you have limitations to irrigation dimensions so again you have the design itself and then you also have to take into consideration the constraints distances to certain  so a lot of people think you could use grey water for you know growing plant growing what you eat but it's not really recommended because we don't know the full contents of the grey water and it's you know you're basically using the ground to there's a biological natural biological process to clean the water not to feed vegetables and class to eat so might be a consideration also construction and alteration must be permitted so any alteration  construction again has to be permitted so what are the benefits and risks well the benefits less water reclamation costs natural biological treatment is very effective consumers he more maintenance and costs you have the intermediate water conservation and upon implementation so that's not necessarily saying that it's going to be going to save even if we capture your costs to implement it right away system collected water becomes septic after twenty four hours so as mentioned before and higher than expected maintenance so you do remember that your system is subterranean so you could get become clogged and you might have to go down there and do more maintenance you anticipate and of course use or misuse so if he choose to do yourself sometimes maybe the system is not as robust as you would think it is and you might or people start putting things into the into the system that's not supposed to be going in there even if it's from from the bathroom how much this ratio would change right now is point six to just as a general term general number so you get by dividing estimate greywater produced gallons per week by the other factors  point six two you should be able to get your last cape area which you require for that area now that will determine the size of your system and then from there you could you could actually start doing a materials and supplies analysis and how much it would cost so a lot of people just want to know a value or a cost for a great water system really depends on your own property so that's why it's really hard to give  to have a pump to get the water to your house fixtures so there's a little bit of mechanics involved too there's all types of system but this is just one generic review or approve probably a lot of systems so it's pretty much hands off as far as the water department and the next call is the one service section of the call and that covers the  as far as subdivisions and rain catchments systems we have three main types one is the subdivision served by the county system which is no no catchment second is the subdivisions that's going to serve entirely by a catchment system and a third is and look at mixture combination so again this relates to only subdivisions that catchments and how the department   water department has no jurisdiction so we have a subdivisions that totally private but no connections at all to the water department department health and sometimes they get  too much to come you know once in a while in the case of our country were water meters are not available in the situation in a subdivision they want to do a like a three lots of division with one catchment building permit applications again there is three basic types similar to the subdivisions were like first the first one the building permit applications you could be totally in the first part of this presentation to fix units and you have to you know whatever you're building and whatever water meter fixtures you have it has to be within the capacity of the water meter that's currently serving the property  have a catchment system the key point on this one is even though you do have a private catchment system it's kind of similar to the subdivision situation you know no water we have the same problems with you know you got holes that are served by this catchment system in there is no water so what are they do they going to connect to the water here obviously so what we do in this situation is  because we are in the permit process revealed we make sure that whatever fixtures are on the property that structures can be served by the existing water meter because we know the water is going to be backed ok back to the prevention what this is blue card by called whenever there is a situation and properties were you can have water from the city within the structures ting members and audience i know that's a tremendous amount of information that was just thrown at you and i hope that many of you have the handled that well we received and if you don't try to get a copy for you but right now we're going to proceed with public testimony and then we'll get into a discussion and question it answers so i hope everybody will stay with us that we have one item on the agenda today and that's water six and it is committee priorities and procedures presentations from county administrative agencies and talking about all these lovely things that we're talking about today so testimony of course will be limited to the item on our agenda today and if you want to testify please sign up at the desk or if you are in the district offices please sign up their testimony is limited to three minutes and upon request you get an extra minute i think we all know how this works so i won't go into any details we've we are stupid to be courteous and when you're sam to stop if you would please stop that would be nice we've established a connection to the district offices and to be fear we will root was rotate through the site let's start with the one office dawn lono do you have anyone wishing to testify that morning waiting to thank you very much the night office denise fernandez do you have anyone wishing to testify and there is no one waiting for my thanks denise in the office l o l con do you have anyone wishing to testify stop meeting like this good morning madam chair thank you for being there last night the department of health it was great your presence there and the questions you asked and things that really helped so thank you thank you so just full disclosure i am the chairman of the whole i association of realtors government affairs committee it's not a paid position and it's an appointed volunteer position but i do hold that but it's not paid so full disclosure i kind of look at this this is what you're bringing up about a chair from fifty thousand feet it seems as though the water department has kind of almost become the de facto planning department when you look at water meters show me the water bill fixture counts you know we talk all the time about affordable housing you and i personally talked about affordable housing and we talk about like the restrictions of what's getting in the way of that and to a certain extent the water department as in many ways without pointing fingers but it's kind of just part of the reality of our situation and i think what you're bringing in is kind of empowering people you know oftentimes we write legislation which is restrictive it's like you can't do this can't do that but this seems to be more like ok let's empower people if we can get fixture counts out of the way we can get rid of show me the water or you know do something about the upcountry water meter water meter situation that would be fantastic you know because it would now empower  people i appreciate you letting us see the presentation first because that was educational the thing that i walked away from with the the fixture count one was the most interesting to me was it seemed like ok we have say five it's into water meter that's got twenty thousand gallons of flow and our concern is that it's going to go over that and we can't read what it is that we can charge them well it seems ridiculous to limit what people can and can't do in their houses just because we might not be able to meter the flow so that to me it just seems like a little bit counterintuitive and the other part i guess i question i don't know oftentimes wrong is i believe that if you get a new building permit you don't have to do a fixture count so we can go build some big huge house with twenty seven bathrooms and thirteen what bars and that doesn't get a picture count but yet if i want to add a bathroom to my existing colony then i suddenly have to get a fixer count so that i don't know if that's true or not but it just seems like it's a little bit counterintuitive and the grey water issue we're all water in our bananas anyways it's like this is something that you know we're not reinventing testimony mr victory no thank you and thank you for being here and i thank you for your your money now i think his government has been very restrictive and has held back affordable housing no disagreement and you cannot blame the water department for someone to things like show me the water because it came out of this council ok so in agree you know so you got to leave the blame where you need to be so lets this but when i was doing the department of water suppl application there is four new installations with this primitive so i think your may be wrong because i think anything new has to have a fixture count any new residential development or that you're talking about grae water and that you know we use it now many of us would like to use it and i know that's not something we can when i grew up we used to have it come right out of grandma's washing and  doing you know have a direct to the banana patch as mango trees and everything else but you're in favor of this great water so long is it you know like there's been proposals for which as much as as little regulation as possible but mean maintaining the safety and health of the general public i'm in favor of it is not an engineer that's what these guys get paid a lot of money to do that and they're way smarter than i am i just say is this already exists in other municipalities let's go to what is it go straight go to san diego and there's a what's the website muni something dot com where you can just go to take their stuff and poach it and put it into ours so that's what i'm saying you know whether it's minimal whether it's maximum that's that's their thing i just think that we need to start doing it you start recognizing ok you know before we have an issue let's let's be proactive and that's what i love the fact that you guys are doing that now you're saying hey listen let's go ahead empower people and be proactive about it when the last thing in this area is is the cost factor as you saw if you're a range very widely right and yeah there's people who can afford that but there's many more of us who cannot show people i can't afford it you know you know exactly where i'm coming from so that my other concern is the economic impact you know i'd like to do it and i think we want people to do it but we've got to make you affordable for them to do it to get the kind of results that we're looking at because even p v many people cannot put p v because they can't afford it they like to see really but they cannot afford it right so i get in the reality is we can the reality is the impact financially how putting this on you know for discussion of the all three of these items are worthy of some sharing and exploration so it's very timely and so thanks thanks very much for that it's a real opportunity  just in general i'm in support of exploring greywater exploring anything we can do with rain from rainfall catchment and making you know integrating in your system in whatever ways work not an engineer the thrust of my comments  would be sent around fixture units the the methodology that we're using right now and i again am not an engineer and i think i have a yeoman's knowledge of the of the of the theory of probability the probability curve the hunters curve that that is used as the standard for determining fixed units and fixture flows i think it's worthy of some discussion you know the the actual numbers that we're actually a subscriber to get that data online is really hard to do so i'd be curious curious to know what those amendments actually were it with respect to fixture unisom just assuming the of the national standard the ones you the ones that are posted a board of water supply depart a water supply now but the hunter curve the probability curve is seventy years old as i understand it it was created in the one nine hundred forty s it was designed principle each to do to address the probability of flows in not only single family residences but in a high rise buildings you know multifamily high rise building so it's a kind of a catch all whenever we have a catchall like that makes me wonder if there are possibly some ways we could tweak it a little bit it may be more nuanced than a one size fits all but i don't really know so i think this is worthy of some discussion and how that discussion could happen i don't really know but i'm in willing to be involved engaged in that conversation we have a lot of history as i understand the department has kept track of i think it's been a while since i look at the annual reports but they do track the average daily consumption of our various regions say while they are versus kahlua so we do have good data on actual water consumption in the different regions of the island or in the county and i think this is could be valuable in our conversation of exploring some ways that we might be able to tweak the system that might benefit under certain circumstances providing for additional housing in the interest of affordable housing i don't really know i don't have any answers just just comments and i guess maybe i'll leave it at that delving into this a little bit more this was kind of an opportunity to make everybody understand what we are using and why we're doing it but i fully intend to pursue this great because i keep hearing it in testimony over and over and  i think it's important that we look at every possible way to make the best use of the what we have and also to help with this housing mess that we're in yes if i may on that point  this is exactly you know the system is we can work with the system i think that you know that the tailors the county and and looking at our particular needs and we do have needs beyond just the spreadsheet that calculates fix units it has a big impact on a lot of other aspects but it was like to director i had a very brief conversation come in here about logistics you know every time you changes make a proposal change something like this it involves so many agencies and some of different apartments but i do think that it's worthy of a conversation and i hope we can continue to think thank you very much we fully intend to pursue this thank you ok miss well then bring eve hogan followed by rosemary rob good morning my name is eve hogan and i'm the owner of the sacred garden and mark well as well as a member of the ag working group the coffees coffee association and the flower growers association but i'm speaking on behalf of myself as a homeowner and i first want to thank you guys for the was about water flow usage but i didn't realize it was a water usage all at the same time which makes it seem even more crazy to me with all due love and respect because i don't think it matters how many faucets we have in our house how many how much water we're using at one time it's far more relevant how many people we have in our house and as an example of that i have a house in key hay that four people live and they have the same sized water meter as the people right next door who have fourteen people living in it and so you know how many faucets are going to get turned on is relevant to how many people are living there so i just find this this faucet count illogical and it's fascinating to me so i really appreciate you guys looking at it and trying to figure out another method and as far as catchment goes and grey water i really feel that my county doesn't have a water problem it has a water storage and a water use problem and looking at these together instead of isolated looking at it as far as the housing issues go looking at all these issues together is really helpful because if we used our great water and we caught the water that it was available to us we would not have the water problem that we have and if we allowed fawcett's we might not have the housing problem so these all work together so thank you guys for looking at that i'd like to encourage you as far as the cost goes that you brought up mr victory no is that you know they give subsidies to homeowners to put in solar and it's very expensive and we are doing it anyways but there's so many people doing it they're not limiting how many of us can do it so if there were subsidies for catchment and grey water i can guarantee you the community would rise because being independent from the county is a high priority for most bank you for looking at all of these pieces and putting together a logical plan thank you very much ms hogan members any need for clarification thank you thank you mr weldon bring rosemary robins followed by david daly wow water by which all things find life we get that caption on our bill every month it's been brought up time and time again water quantity quality and now we're hearing the wisdom of people in the community this morning saying we've got the county water department telling us how much it doesn't do doesn't take responsibility for this doesn't take responsibility for that you have to deal with the people who are going to be putting in your catchment systems and great water systems whatever why mollie county water department if they're stepping back from a lot of the responsibilities we have a council member who wisely brought up this morning that so many of our people can't afford financially to be able to do that just we haven't figured out how to grow that tree with the money on it and so we're leaving all these people out if this is a county that people aren't so  somebody mentioned the show me the water bill this morning well if it's by water that all things find life let's have some sort of a code that makes sense that says here's your water storage based on the fact that here is the water supply in the land use maui county's islands and in some cases possibly shore water by way salinisation i know that's expensive other people not worth it is somebody who directed you scamps in new hampshire more than half a century ago i'm well aware of what happens with catchment i'm well aware that that's why we trench tents when we pitch them and we trench them in tears and order to be able to make sure that the land on which  going to be sleeping is not going to be cut by a deluge and i have to tell you that yesterday i didn't make it in for the very helpful thank you again folks support for the homework for this morning's meeting i was taking care of a deluge in my neighborhood yesterday so even with palm fronds that water was coming right into the open brown trash containers yesterday was trash pickup day so you got an open huge brown container that nobody's going to be able to lift certainly not my seventy four years of collection of cells here to be able to get that out and i was working around the neighborhood to tip those over just i could and get them so that that water would not be taking the land away which is going to destabilize the land around there is so much common sense that's missing and what's happening here and i don't question the good intent of the folks that have been hired not not by ourselves we don't hire those people those  coming in from the administration but i don't question their intent but there's a whole huge reality sort of the cow at the other end of the rope so the elephant in the wrong that's all been talked about here before where the action plans to go ahead to prepare for an alleviate these problems a previous justifiers said that the problem is not having water the problem is not having water storage for minutes we certainly could have filled reservoirs in the multiples here yesterday where i live and we were out there trying to divert watching the water come up in the dry cultures where we get a good short time before they're going to overflow with the common sense and not being prepared so if we all can work together and if we can work on a page of one way traffic too left her own devices to try to figure out how the thing works i really appreciate the presentation this morning that helps cleared up we're dealing with a national standard and with not a lot of a whole lot of flexibility probably involved with it so  but we still are dealing with the reality of how this is one of the barriers to affordable housing in my county so how do you go how do you work your way through that you know from the non engineer consumer side of the handled by but thirty one fixtures you see testimony from mr states where that situation where you had by by because of the situation he was any at the had three residences well over thirty one  fixtures operating off of a five base meter without a problem so you've got to get the national standard over here and they meet got the imperial knowledge to some of our folks have in the community end up with a hand up with conspiracy theories like this is a plot to the mid water our county you know and that's you know not engineer job public's perspective when i hear that this is a national standard and you know my head goes right right away to way around this and another way of doing meters might be the answer rather than trying to work against the stream and have been stuck with out on that i think i'll stop there thank you very much any need to clarify the testimony thing i think you single reason and that was agree water usage oh ever as the as the explanations were put on the board i realize that you were speaking in tiredly about residential and yet it doesn't say that so i mean i was confused i'm not confused anymore and while i am easily confused i mean where the i don't see the correlation between thirty one units and twelve hundred gallons an hour of water flow it's how it works out twenty gallons a minute i live in a house of three very very seldom does two or three people take a shower at one time fact i know that only one in my bedroom because my wife is still asleep a light take a shower so i don't think the unit the unit counts make a difference it's codes used then i look at grey water and i say to myself i says for take the dish water the dishwasher water that goes down the drain if i take the the machine water that washes dishes fertik the shower water by itself there's very little to clean up i think yet and then you combine the the largest part of the equation which is laundry and you add that to the equation well i know that no kalani where the older homes are have or will are willing to spend money to put a system in because it's very very expensive as the described so who is responsible for trying to move this grey water source forward who is responsible is it a combination of  they and us me they meaning the water department the council through legislation is there an incentive to retrofit maybe that would help what is the impact of the sewer charges on your water bill as a result of this i realize you still pumping through exactly the same amount of water through the meter and that's where they measure so where's the incentive for me as a person to be able to reduce this fear which is almost fifty percent of my current water bill so those are the things that i think about and what is the bottom line costs to all of us all of us how can we solve the problem it's a private public partnership all of us the young man over here said earlier that we use eighty percent of our water every month theoretically sixty four percent could theoretically go into great water landscaping and i agree i think it's a great great thing how do we do it what are the benefits what are the incentives these are all the things that come to my mind today as i sit here  trying to plant them through this grey water no vegetation why you've cleaned it you've tried to do it is there a way to filter the system so that it can work that's another positive thing that we might work on and how do you know lastly that we've got all that water that was in storage for twenty four hour minutes but i think you've got the gist of what we're talking about here shared by all of the people that spoke earlier malo for your kindness bhalo to the department for putting this on i got a lot out of it this thank you for one of my bigger questions later is the sort of charge because till today people understand the water bill as being the water bill even though sometimes two thirds of that water bill is a sewage charge and the way it's set up now you actually crick it what comes in is what you basically charged on so we water wouldn't have any effect unless we make some kind of you know amendment to that to make sure that that's taken into account so it's one of those many issues and i'm glad you see it about the costs you know it's all going mention about government subsidies well you know we've had a lot of government subsidies as far as solar because it was a national and national push then went to the states and then to the counties and until water becomes a national pollution which is not far on the cotton if you go to california you go to utah you go to nevada you could do many states right now who have tremendous water challenges and they're going to going to get worse in the very near future and maybe then it becomes a national challenge i go to it all the conferences and until it becomes a national job it's just me against you you know it's your little county figuring it all out and show me the water and some of these other legislative hinderance maybe it's time to change it and i've said that for quite a while now you know sort of publicly i can see it's trying to maybe do away with some of these and let's get moving so that affordable housing and housing in general can be built in this company for our people to continue to live raise and enjoy what we've all enjoyed thank you mr madam chair and thank you for bringing up tools points good morning sharon good morning council members i'm hamilton pup president of the maui chamber of commerce and i greatly appreciate chair that you took the presentation in advance because that really helps us listen and learn and informs our testimony and actually that's what we came here today to do you know it's already been said that water is a source of life it's a precious resource and at the chamber we have longstanding policy is to maximize our efforts to reclaim water and reuse water it's critical to our future development and our affordable housing so we support expanded options for collection and reuse to lower costs we want to see greywater options and more catchment eye to heard the comments on the inability to meter you know that we are worried about flow because that could impact the efficiency of the meters and then we'd have an inability to meter in charge and i thought that was really odd if felt very odd to me that that's part of the challenge and and i've heard over the years many comments about people who have been limited by the fixture count and it has hampered them from expanding their home use to allow more people in for sort of official flow in their home and agree with these comments that you know i don't think all those fixtures are used simultaneously so i would like to explore it if the calculation for how we came about that is seventy years old i definitely think we should start challenging that and look at what's possible you know i do feel like there are many great models in the interest of fairness and disclosure my other half is a landscape contractor i landscape he's done business in two very conservative states california and oregon who very much care about their resource conservation and has seen great use models and he's been surprised that when we talk so much about water here in maui that we're not there specially because we're dealing with an island state so i think there's many options i appreciated see the san diego and really feel like now's the time council member a victory no said you know the national levels looking at it we should have been looking at it a long time ago there are movies that have been talking about water is the thing that maybe future wars will be fought over because it's such a precious resource so we really need to look at ways that we can recapture and reuse and that's a long standing policy of the chamber and we certainly support this and thank you for the exploration of this topic thank you very much for being here members and indeed t morning chair council my name is thomas cook i'm here representing construction institute in mali it's a local nonprofit trade group or affiliated with the chamber of commerce i'm a general contractor for the last thirty years also hold specialty licenses for structural concrete and grading an excavation i like to address i thank you for the opportunity for this inform information meeting it's kind of refreshing to be here when it's not like the intense legislative you know tug push pull i want i want to say i want to be very supportive of the department of water supply i've noticed and witnessed over the last fifteen years a massive transformation and i wanted to say to the bet to the better i also want to caution the council and this is i don't want to ruffle any feathers but during the last budgetary hearing it was very painful for me to watch how political it became the water department used to be autonomous for a reason but my sort of analogy of that it was like in a black box in a bag up on a high shelf and if you wanted to ask a question of the water department they take it off the shelf and take it out of the bag and you look at the black box and there was no discussion right now this is extremely transparent we have a water department that is based on engineering calculations for cost and extra much just total props for these guys for all the work that they're doing i'd like to address first the flow rate fixture call my suggestion is that possibly you do if you're willing to and engage in a peer review with local other engineers because there is a a disagreement and so far as the fixture column effectiveness and appropriateness the water department has a very has the burden of supplying water reliably and to health standards so if they're conservative that's their job so that we as a community and organizations could potentially work with them to assist them to enable them to address this and not just sort of point a finger at them and say it's a problem so i think that they're being overly conservative and if we can hopefully collaboratively work together we could address the fixture column and i want to address the meters briefly the way that that was addressed to me it's not so much the county and  incorrectly from wrong water apartment it's not so much loss of revenue it's the fact that somebody for a prolonged period of time may be billed at a certain rate and then if the meat if it's caught are addressed and their rate significantly increases then the water read the meters anymore they have a little gauge so by the same token the the methodology of the gears and whatnot whether it's a badge or meter or whatever it is it's a sort of like the burden is on the manufacture to that that should not be the big obstacle it is a reality it is a fact but i don't buy into that school briefly on the only address the rain catchment i lived on rain catchment for forty years well thirty years my son has the property you know it's a it's a fireball alternative in the country i don't think it says it's going to be the solution for affordable housing it's expensive there's a big burden of responsibility for the health aspect of it and it's very appropriate that the water department is hands off because they are not in control so they allowed us to build i decided something that i would never apply for a water permit we also had one hundred sixty five inches of rain a year so haiku cou ntry and then amended if i can one more minute address the grey water issue i think there's and like so many things in my county in the rules and whatnot we have town and we have  country ok town you have density multifamily housing commercial and so the rules the regulations of permits all of that it's extremely necessary and appropriate then you get country and that's where people get their back up it's like rado i don't put my grey water on my bananas i don't want to heliconia i've been doing it forever my kids grandparents did it forever you know i have bright intelligent children and grandchildren and nobody has suffered from it and i understand the water department needing to take a step back and not condoning that but upcountry you know if you're going to put it on a septic system and whatnot so that's the challenge for the council and that's the challenge for the water partner is to identify that we have two basic different playing fields but we have laws and rules and i don't know if i should thank you guys or not you guys are the ones who make those laws rules but hopefully you can to take that into consideration once again i want to say that the water apartment has evolved and done a great job the burden is on the council and the water department to not allow it to be politicized they need to plan for twenty years you guys are only here for two years at the time there's a certain tension in that and thank you for the opportunity to voice my opinion and represent the construction industry my i just like to say our mission statement is to unify the building community through active communication advocacy education to sustain industry growth and best practices and to hopefully cultivate all the plumbers and everybody else so  we are going to submit written testimony which deviates from my verbal testimony and shantell issue that later so thank you for the opportunity and i hope that it's been helpful thank you very much mr cook and you need to go to the district offices and make sure that we don't have anybody that has shown up since we made the first round on a has is there anyone wishing to testify this will probably be less testifiers so please just hang on for a minute good morning my name is johnson lonergan also representing the construction industry of my i am a general contractor here and more importantly one of the founding members of the new the new industry association that has partnered with the chamber of commerce i thank you very much for all of your information and exchange of ideas i really appreciate that and speaking on behalf of the  industry i wanted to say that we can our membership supports both the county the chamber as well as the water department in seeking alternative methods of defining and enforcing the water meters and the show me the water bill and when projects takes expanded decades to develop then the community is not properly service and they're not getting the benefit of the infrastructure that is supposed to be a part of that development and i think that's part of what and stop hurting that public opinion so the construction industry of maui is looking forward to assisting the county on all sides and all levels in finding an equitable solution that will allow shovel ready projects to move forward and prevent water reservations to become to become used as commodities which impair the affordable housing initiatives that we have here in the county and just thank you thank you thank you very much for your testimony you're welcome written testimony will be submitted thank you members and seeing thank you members i don't see anyone else who wants to testify in the gallery and we have nobody in the district offices so without objections i'd like to close public testimony for today thank you very much members we're going to take our morning break please try to make it no more than ten minutes we recess will the meeting please come back to order thank you very much for the recess and thank you everyone for staying with us through the presentations and through the testimony members we now have an opportunity to ask any questions of the resource people that we'd like to ask and if they're not here and can answer today well we'll get those answers for you so proceed does anyone want to believe this you know mr victory  happy to lead this off to the mountain but are we thank you very much again you know this week has been a very interesting week all of the comedians have been bringing up issues that we've all along to hear answers to and i'm very glad that the public is able to hear and share with us some of these challenges and spottable solutions so i think this is all all a good good thing where i need that had some gentlemen right there because he's the one that up in other words on the ground so my question to you is first of all if this is all on the ground and you have a valve that switches the tank off and on you know to change from green water to put in th sure how do you if you've got a single level house how do you control that you know need to go back in your pictures you know because if you have a two story home or you have a home like mine was raised off the ground i can see that being done very propose to do that when you're talking you know because you have that switch right you said you can switch from shore degree water or back to store how do you how do you do that well that's one of the things i wanted that's why i mention the complexities the more complex designs require you know a lot more labor and lot more cost depending on the housing type of property i'm not a plumber so i can't say you know you could terminate the main lines coming out of the house to the system but maybe that's an option instead of taking it you know any term meaning and then you know what he called branching it out like they did in san diego to dig up your entire foundation to get to it just as long as you're able to divert the sinks in the shower and the laundry and dishwasher for example as long as you're able to book you know in town we may have more restrictions and the homes of course and there's all whole gamut of challenges if you're talking in town or in an urban area versus a rural or ag area so i gain maybe this is many aspects and now we're going to add another one and there goes the dealer getting more great here is trying to figure out where he's going to get the money to subsidize or so items that they are or that well the thing with a great water system is as a win win situation really  you don't have to tell people to stop consuming any more than they are now what they're telling in this basically thing install that they take a percentage of what they're wasting and what you know what they're using and getting a discount you know but they're not really stopping anymore consumption they are now there is just able to use it for other purposes other than sending it to reclamation for additional costs or county very good now and i agree wholeheartedly and madam chair i would like up so it's you know again that's why colony doesn't make a lot of sense unless we have some real major changes in the whole system itself but i can see where our country all rural areas where this would be much more don't get me wrong i really think it's a real viable solution but there's a whole gamut of questions and challenges that you didn't you mention the complexities that we need to have some answers and maybe this is where we need to go from from this point the last thing i had was you know and this is not so much for you but it's the next subject matter is catchment and it is my understanding catchment on the big island you have no water source from the co absolutely none you know have a mixture there's no back floor problems because you don't have it and that is one of the restrictions that the county has there is they will not put in sort of lines i mean i saw lines water lines because these people decided to go and get me or yes mr my sister lives there i was born and raised there mr chang i can tell you is a fact you cannot get water hundred meters where you have catchment they've done that so you don't have the intermingling and some of the concerns that we have on maui it's a little different and let me tell you something you may have one hundred sixty five inches of rain in haiku the size of the island has lots of rain but when they don't it is super expensive a truck bringing o year with all the rain it's not a problem but when you don't have rain you've got to truck that water and it is exponentially expensive to truck watering so pitchmen has great value but when you have a drought and you've got to bring the water in and you're not  i got no problem but if you're going to you know like was mentioned have water county water and catchment i have a challenge with that because how does that fit when you have a lot of our own you have drought and you have all the  and like i see i've got nothing against catchment i have nothing against the water but there's some work that needs to be done and you know if we can find a happy medium i'm all for it if we can be able for the housing to that bet that ology i'm all for it whatever it takes  for it and find the manager it's not for the subject matter but i will be looking to bring forward what i've been talking about followed by a review of the show me the water bill and maybe getting rid of it find me once and for all i think this county needs to have it more common sense approach but that's another subject matter and i want to get deep into that thank you madam chair thank you mr victory you know you have a lot of experience to share and share appreciates it this cornell thank you chair i really appreciate the presentations and your efforts to bring all this forward and i think one of the testifiers said you know there's a separation town and country  one of the questions i have if i can understand the rationale why if you don't you go catchment you you cannot have a water meter art that doesn't the floor and fixtures but if say someone has water meter and then decides maybe i need to also add a catchment so that's a private plus public water system is then that's when the department has procedures where even though you plan to use catchment for these new pictures you have to make sure that the water meter that serve in a properly can also it's required is that correct is that a correct statement you are trying to explain though here is correct in the building pre processing in the county department of public works  you know a country that's part of that's part of the we of irrigation growing up my dad had patches or acres of  banana patches and and he actually used to collect that gray water from the washer and we even have my nephew has a song that sings about that and  your ginger patch where you use your great water and i think there was i think the the sustainability buzzword and the recycling buzzword grounds to the sewage or septic or what have you where whereby it can be used whether it's to reverse osmosis or or what have you abut in the old days they figured out how they can do it you know and i think we have lots to learn from from our elders those in a country and i'm hoping town or the urban site somehow other that can be engineered from the experts that's a possibility for us to consider because long term we'll be able to provide this resource which we value for our great grandchildren and for the generations to come so if it means that we don't have to ration the water during the drought system times we have this to keep us green and and our our landscapes or and good to have this presentation because you know i don't know if you ford's determined a sewer cost or does it come from the environmental management which is all part of what we're trying to work towards so i hope if there is anything that we can do is policymakers on this chair i can support where you're coming  great respect for our engineers and for the rules that they make and they have to live by but maybe we can find some middle ground to make at least a few changes and not have this water running into i don't know the reason why we were able to talk about all of this a all of us about what we do with leftover water and all that stuff so we can eliminate that we'd also save a lot of money and not have to build a lot more treatment plants and whatever so we're just trying to go back to the future kind of  i've been reading it's more of an issue of policy to kind of following code so when when people want to start applying for systems then it becomes complicated and you have to then you have to look at it with a with  microscope and examine exactly was happening in terms of laundry to irrigation or some people you know i'm not saying everybody but some people forget that a lot of the chemicals for example from your laundry use it for for for growing things because it shouldn't come in contact with in other words once it comes out your your carrots instruction be directly in contact with with vegeta thank you i of fear and you know what maybe people will go back using sort of suds ingmar detergent that's not so chemical lies maybe that will change things you know we don't y appreciate and i understand where you're coming from and you're right a lot of a lot of the water comes from laundry is actually much more predictable in terms of content because you're doing laundry are you doing dishwashing you're not if you if you start adding bathrooms different sources you don't know what's going into the drain so people could add a lot more chemicals into those internal sources than you would in laundry you're not going to put all kinds acids whatever so that's the danger save water for the county and save sewer capacity for the county yeah thank you very question yes you're right i mean we've been talking a lot about how we could expand the u p c code to single use residential and there's and i can't speak for them so i don't know what the case is a single tank per residential home but i don't have the answer to today's question of why it's like that all i know is that there is an ability to be able to mend the p c to be able to expand and i think that's a worthwhile effort and it's case so that's not sure if the state made that amendment to the series at the actual the one i looked at was from the state state of hawaii or the state made that you're actually ok the other thing is you know you mention a geographic geographically sensitive area can you be a sensitivity or maybe certain geographic you know type all those things are taken into consideration in deciding alice's so that's why it's quite important to get people involved when you're doing  when you look at a private catchment system that you don't look at it at all so there's no fire protection rule necessary for private catchment system or is that a separate thing that the fire department would look at in a case of a subdivision where is totally private monk did of us system do fire department does review for fire protection ok so they have to make sure that there's their fire flow protection at least you know they're a part of the  you know what good is this form to me i bought a house and when i bought my house way back in two thousand ninety nine whenever it was it was a house that was already  there i never saw this form and when i got there i saw stub out for a utility sink so i threw in the utilities thing and i said well you know i want to do sprinkler system so i put my own sprinkler system because i've done that before in a prior life intend to add more fixtures to my property oh inform the department of water supply i never saw this form or anything like it so what good is this war will take a retroactive check i don't live in that house an that's kind of one of the things that bothers me is that what you say and what happens is things get added after the fixed account so you know mr victory no brought up that hate we could just get rid of fixed units and we wouldn't be any worse off for the wear and i tend to agree with them can you can you kind of elaborate on whether or not that's something we could do got every utility every utility water sewer power has to find some way to take their infrastructure ability and allocate it to users and charge appropriately what is your fair share the extra units are part of the way we do that so we first talk about how county wastewater does it when you come in for a house or a building in county wastewater they don't count fixed units they have a list that says each house is done are the numbers th ree hundred fifty gallons a day a cottage is two hundred fifty gallons a day each seat in a restaurant is ten gallons a day a hotel room is one hundred gallons a day office building is x gallons per square foot etc etc and some of those numbers may not be right i haven't looked at them in a long time so they add that up and based on those averages they assume that when you're building whatever you're building that's how much you're going to use in the council approved ordinance for waste water impact fees doesn't have a cost per meter or hook up as a cost per gallon so they multiply that times that cost and that's your impact fee ok so what they do is they use these average is of what a typical house uses you know three hundred fifty gallons a day of sewage etc ok so that's how they allocate how much of their capacity is for a house or for a building and how much each user has to pay so they don't use  electric when they charge us as a big industrial user and not exactly clear they have a bunch of different rate structures ours has something to do with a fifteen minute maximum charge so whatever fifteen minute max is the use that is a multiplier for the whole year on top of our bill and that's our share of what our share of that infrastructure to support us so that's how they charge us our fair share that's all electric does it water does is these fixture units we say how many fixtures  have therefore what size meter do you need and then in the council approved budget ordinance it says how much for him either so those are three different ways of doing exactly the same thing allocating so as a utility we know here's what's being built can we support it you know how much are we taking off our master list and is everyone paying their fair share fixture units are part of that so if you just got rid of fixture units mr victory  who he is a five inch meter five meter from the manufacturer specs can handle twenty gallons a minute twenty gallons a minute over twenty four hours is twenty eight thousand eight hundred gallons but when we gave mr victoria no five  centimeter we assumed that he would use about five hundred or six hundred gallons a day not twenty eight thousand eight hundred so the fixture units are what limits him to realistically using around five or six hundred gallons a day without sixty units he could put a huge tank in run his meter twenty four hours a day and serve fifty houses that's not why we gave him a five inch meter we didn't allocate him twenty eight thousand eight hundred gallons a day we didn't charge him his fair share of infrastructure for twenty eight thousand eight house is six hundred gallons a day and the cottage is three hundred and a restaurant is x proceed migrate the rate structure away from meters and two gallons you know and transfer the upcountry meter list from meters also to you know a number of houses and things you'd have to change the whole system that might be better it might be worse but you can't just pick fixed units and get rid of it and leave the rate structure of the way it is leave the water system development fee structure the way it is and everything's built around the overall accounting process of money and water allocation so we could switch to something different like an eco does like county waste water does but we have to change everything so it is part of the overall structure to fairly allocate fairly tracked and fairly charge for infrastructure ok well that just brought up a few other questions i was chatting with the chair white at the break and he had done some calculations i thought i was going to be back here to discuss those so maybe it's throw some if if i can is remember what he said just so that you don't feel that we have to enter all the questions today i want to know that i w gallon of water used in a five eighth's meter it was one point five fixture units allowed for that gallon but if you had a four inch meter i think it was a four inch meter he said it worked out to be eight point five fixture units per gallon of water used that doesn't seem fair you mention fair that doesn't seem fair if you have the bigger meter per gallon of water used the fixed units was tremendously high i think that comes back to what mr chang said in his presentation about this hunter's curve when you have this massive hotel huge meter you know they're not all going to be used at the same time so all of these things come down to some statistical methodology that the more you have the lesser being used taney asli so i don't think a linear just a linear comparison is ever going to work in that kind of situation and lastly what  so when you come in if you want a bathroom you're out into fixtures you have to pay some fixed fee i believe per fixture and what honolulu does is because i think they charge i haven't looked at their rate structure since budget but i think they charge the same for everybody so if they think that you are using so much water that the five meters too small for you those coming retrofit with a three quarter or a one inch or whatever the cost of the same you just charge per fixture unit and if they feel that the readings your water usage is so high that it's too high for that size water meter just put a bigger one so that's a again a different way of doing it but if you look at their system development see it's not per meter it's perfect or unit so they still use  is kind of what almost every one of those testifiers was saying is when we get to this limit of fixed units we have to stop and we can't add unless we change our water meter which i understand but i think make this is for the discussion further is that that's the way to do it is perfect or unit you know if they want to put twenty five hundred fixtures in their house for their big property that's fine you guys do the math to find out what size meter they need and charge him accordingly so it i have a feeling that that might be what i mean just as a quick glance at you know there's all the engineering and all that that may change that but just as a common sense kind of way to look at it maybe that might be the better way to do it and we're not against that and that's my point of saying how there's different ways to do this our department methodology have evolved over many years again to match the water system development fee the rate the monthly rate structures different charges for different sized meters the fixture unit counts this whole methodology we could shift all of it but you can't just change one portion of it is my point so we would need to figure out how to shift everything simultaneously to accomplish that so we're not saying that's a bad idea i'm not saying that's a worst way or even a better way but it's a different way and we have to look at all the facets of it and not just change one piece and that's really my only point fixture units are part of the overall methodology we can't just change fixed units without changing all the other pieces appropriately  difficult when i'm sure and we're going to discuss more what part of that is we have already put in tear structures just to address what you were talking about when people use more structure for that for that purpose i know you didn't put your structure out because i believe that the tear structures are not about the upfront infrastructure costs the tear structure are about the difference in production costs of volume we're talking about more features more volume and all that  will leave that alone but finally i'll say it is medicare you know whatever things we start moving towards a discussion we move towards i will say that the other departments and  remember again i go back to the statement i made earlier where the only county that the water department falls on the other three counties run a separate upon i'm a spotty so it really different anyhow with all that being said i want to thank m schedule we're going to be moving on it and i hope the rest of our members are willing to work along with us to get some of this accomplished and that we can leave and walk out with some of these issues when we walked in wanting to accomplish tha on their time big time by saying we need this when can we do this by the next meeting and they've been just really wonderful meeting with us for hours at a time looking at all of the ideas and options and i want to thank them a whole lot and i want to thank my my water resources committee has been extremely supportive and participatory in my own staff and it public has you know stayed with us i want to tell the public and this is i intend to close the meeting on this note you know we probably promised you at the less meeting and we're going to bring back that player protection bill that we're working on but after that meeting we met again and we saw that it was additional opportunity for making the bill even better and more beneficial so we're taking a little haters here while we continue to work on it but it's going to be coming back very soon legal is working on it right now and we've worked with the say and also with the public w in so we're trying to present the best possible bill we can so we use our time well also i heard many times today people say what we need to do with the show me the water bill i want you to know that as it works we're just about ready to have the meeting on it it will be coming soon and of course i do intend to bring this fixture thing back where we can have a really in depth discussion now that we've had the presentation and the public has seen and the members have seen how complicated it is you know everything's really simple and mr victor is probably grinning because he went through this for so many years everything you bring forward sounds really simple and then you start digging in it and you start looking at all the rules and all of the things that you have to deal with and it takes a lot of time a lot of meetings lot of research before you can feel comfortable in bringing something to the committee so trust us we're working very very hard and we do want to make a difference so members i think that is the end of our business for today matter madam our staff you want us to defer this item chair a clarification  follow up letter she would like me yes please if you would work with you on those very well and yes this with her yeah i think we members without objection i want to defer because we want to talk about this some more georgians thank you very much thank you very much everybody and we made a good time table to meeting is adjourned