attendance the purpose of hearing is to examine existing policies in the range of employee benefits available to federal civilian employees serving in doesn't needed combat areas the chair ranking member some community members will each have five minutes to make opening statements and all members will have three days in which to submit statements and additional questions for the record i'd like to welcome everybody here to this afternoon subcommittee hearing intended to explore critical yet frequently forgotten issues relating to the pay protection and other personnel policies of federal civilian employees serving in high risk environments abroad well our chairman congressman steve lynch could not chair this hearing his interest in this policy area is the motivation for this hearing has requested that a full statement for the hearings be submitted for the record with an objection it is so ordered as an advocate for the federal community myself i represent fifty six thousand federal workers and maybe as many retirees i'm especially pleased to serv chair of a today's hearing a call to arms a review of benefits for the ploy that all employees today's proceeding affords us the opportunity to examine a host of benefit challenges and discrepancies currently confronting deployed but all employees federal workers who serve our nation in combat areas of iraq and afghanistan and other war zones deserve assurance that the federal government has a uniform strategy in place to handle both pre and post deployment issues no matter the employing agency with tens of thousands of federal employees having served overseas in combat theater in this decade it greatly disturbed me to learn comments from a former deployed battle employee who was gravely injured by enemy fire last year in iraq that the military saves your life gets you home and then it's totally up to you in addition to ensuring seamless medical care upon return an efficient and straightforward processing a worker's compensation claim aims i believe federal agencies need to do more in support of these individuals stateside following their deployment in the areas of medical screening mental health support services and in dealing with their home and other agencies when filing for benefits and seeking treatment unlike their military counterparts deployed federal employees do not operate within an established framework and often have to navigate bureaucratic hurdles to get their health care coverage on aided given the expanding role of federal civilian employees in support of ongoing military operations and state craft and diverse agencies are in a position of needing to recruit federal workers who are willing to serve  hostile environments as a result addressing pay inconsistencies leave flexibilities and holes in post deployment medical care and work of compensation are key to guaranteeing such an abundant and dedicated workforce i'd like to thank the witnesses preparing here today as we take a hard look at what's being done and what options may need to be considered to guarantee that deployed federal employees brave men and women who serve their country and their family members are receiving the proper support  appropriately i think that we just got understand that the rule of law has always been a a cultural given at least we assumed it been since i met mesopotamia started using a concept on on clay tablets so i think that we need to have some kind of understanding of what is the the restraints where the limits and where the opportunities and people should know that up front we shouldn't be making the rules as we go on and i  think the concept of written law and regulation is just not only a cultural given in our society it's it's common decency and so i will look forward to this hearing i think ations commitment to creating a civilian surge in afghanistan really is an example of where we need to get our act together on this we need to set out these lines the new administration obviously expects this today and certainly i think i would insist to have come today to examine policy disparities that exist across federal agencies that deployed civilian employees to serve our country in the plate environments si thousand and one more than forty one thousand civilians and serve who are currently serving in iraq or afghanistan one of the realities of fighting concurrent wars in both iraq and afghanistan is that our military cannot conduct its missions alone the military has to use every available soldier on the front lines additionally the nature of how we fight out there an enemy has caused us to rely more heavily on civilians not only to provide assistance in service support roles but also to be actively engaged in the day to day stability and reconstruction efforts alongside our troops rightfully we go out of our way to ensure that our deployed military troops receive the proper medical and compensation benefits while they fight for our nation well our deployed civilian population should be no different as a face dangerous situations also studies have found disparities with approving workers compensation and post a poem medical screening affecting benefits regardless of whether the plates of a and a originates from the department of defense state department or the united states agency for international development these volunteers are placed in harm's way and deserve equitable treatment when it comes to medical care benefits and compensation d o d and state already have the infrastructure to provide medical care while civilians are deployed in the theater of operations but i'm like the military when i civilians return home to medical well and this is forgotten we mandate that the military complete post deployment health assessments to identify symptoms related to post traumatic stress disorder yet d o d and state are the only agencies that require medical screening of civilians upon return from deployments therefore we need to do a better job of communicating the policies that govern medical care benefits and compensation for out deployed civilians as we have learned from casualty reports there are numerous risks that a civilian accepts when he or she decides to work in a combat zone it is no secret that money and benefits a lucrative enticements for agencies to attract individuals willing to deploy as such individuals should receive comparable compensation commensurate with their skill levels and the amount of risk involved in their daily functions finally understanding that federal agencies operate on the different basis and compensation packages will differ to a degree but the office of person management should provide overarching compensation and benefit policy for the poor wait civilians and the authorities given to the agency's will implementation given the course of our military i do not foresee a change in the near future when our reliance of civilians on the battlefield as we continue a whole of government approach to stabilizing and weaken structuring other regions around the world we must be creative and utilizing existing systems to meet our current challenges i i think that it would be worthwhile to expand existing d o d and state procedures to incorporate the civilian aspect and mr chairman with that i thank you again for calling this hearing and i yield back i thank the gentleman at this time i would ask the witnesses to stand his committee policy that all witnesses before this committee are sworn in if you were to rise and raise your right hand do you solemnly swear testimony will give before the subcommittee will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth the record show that each witness answered in the affirmative i thank you  if i may give give a brief introduction to our panelists brenda farrow i was appointed service director in g e o s defense capabilities a management team in april of two thousand and seven she is responsible for military and civilian personnel issues including those related to j o's high risk area personal security clearances the ferals began a career at g a o in one thousand nine hundred one and the serves on a number of issue areas associate with national security issues human resource policies and programs that affect over seven hundred thousand employees worldwide she also serves as the principal deputy to the deputy undersecretary of defense a civilian personnel policy stephen browning was is ambassador stephen browning a career member of the senior foreign service holding the rank of career minister a baster browning assumed a studious principal deputy assistant secretary of state in the bureau of human resources in august of two thousand and nine most but i believe that there is somebody here from department of agriculture who can answer some questions is that correct yeah ok jerome mikko it's is that correct is the deputy associate director for pay and leave the ministration a strategic human resources policy division of the u s office of personnel management is a career member of senior executive service and manages the center for pay and leave a ministration responsible for administering dozens of government wide statutory authorities related to paley work and work schedules to civilian federal employees and finally but not least shall the hallmark shall be hallmark is the acting assistant secretary for employment standards of ministration of the u s department of labor and director of the office of workers compensation programs before we begin hearing from members of the paleness norton the delegate from washington d c has joined us and i now call him the gentle lady for her opening remarks welcome thank you very much mr chairman i wanted to be here for as long as i could this  committee is not an excellent job of taking care of federal employees at home but our own work indicates that we've not been nearly the congress at least has not been nearly as vigilant when we deploy you know that's the right word for it civilian workers abroad i i have visited whenever i visit abroad in fact the first people we come in contact with are federal employees just like the ones who are our own constituents here except there they are far away from home and more and more of them have been deployed to combat zones and serve under what can only be called mr chairman hardship there you don't have the same access that those who courageously serve us in the armed forces have always had and so all unintentionally there is a distinction among federal employees we are responsible for them not just in this country but most especially when they are brought in mr chairman i recall  speaking with employees who had been deployed for some time in various parts of the mid east and were astounded to learn one of the complaints indeed was that there has to be turnover people  know there's too much turnover that our our employees come for a while and then they go well a reason so a very clear this is hardship with capital letters their way from home from family and then they have uncertain benefits when they particularly when they incur unexpected events in their own lives we have got to make it attractive to go abroad we've got to make it less of a hardship to go abroad this is not paris my friends these are not both and the great  cities that are legendary in history where in your off hours you can go sightseeing i have seen federal employees in places where there was nothing in the evening i hope they like books and i think because our our employees tend to be fairly bookish intelligent and intellectual they use the time of course to to go to fact we need to pay the kind of attention you mr chairman of the subcommittee is paying now and i would stay for as long as i can but i wanted to be here to thank you and the subcommittee and particularly to thank the witnesses who come to educate us about these out of sight out of mind employees of the united states of america serving their country thank you i thank the gentleman from the district of columbia and thank her for her commitment to all of the employees the federal government witnesses have been sworn in and i want to just say to everybody that your entire statement has been entered into the record everybody has five minutes in which to summarize of their testimony the green light will go on to indicate that your five minutes have begun the yellow light means you have one minute remaining to complete the statement and i can project but i think this will be better mr connelly members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to discuss our recent report on the actions needed to better track and provide timely and accurate compensation and medical benefits to deployed federal civilian as d o d has expanded its involvement in overseas military operations it has grown increasingly reliant on its federal civilian workforce to provide support in times of war or national emergency other federal agencies also play an important role in the stabilization and reconstruction of at risk countries and regions consistent with a collaborative whole of government approach therefore the need for attention to polic benefits that affect the health and welfare of these individuals becomes increasingly significant my main message today is that given the importance of the missions these civilian support and the potential dangers and the environments in which they work federal agencies need to take additional actions to ensure that the compensation packages associated with such services are appropriate and comparable and that these civilians receive all the compensation and benefits to which they are entitled my written statement is divided into three parts the first address is compensation policies for deployed civilians although policies concerning compensation are generally comparable across the six selected agencies that we reviewed we found some issues that affect the amount of compensation that they receive depending upon such things as the pay system and the accuracy timeliness and completeness of the compensation for example two comparable civilian supervisors who deploy under different pay systems may receive different rates of overtime pay because this right is set by the employee's pay system and great or band and april two thousand and eight a congressional committee asked o p m to develop a comprehensive benefits package for all deployed civilians and recommend enabling legislation if appropriate at the time of our review opium had not done so also implementation of some policies may not always be accurate or timely for example we estimate that about forty percent of the deployed civilians we surveyed reported experiencing problems with compensate including not receiving danger pay or receiving it late in part because they were unaware of their eligibility or did not know where to seek assistance the second part of my written statement addresses the medical benefits we found some issues with policies related to medical care following deployment and with workers compensation and post deployment medical screenings that affect the benefits of deployed civilians for example while d o d allows its treatment facilities to care for nandi of the civilians following deployment in some cases the circumstances are not always clearly defined and some agencies were unaware of d o d s policy because the o d s policy is unclear confusion exist within d o d and other agencies regarding civilians eligibility for care and military treatment facilities the some civilians cannot benefit from the efforts d o d s undertaken in areas such as post traumatic stress disorder also civilians who deployed may be eligible for benefits through workers compensation  analysis of one hundred eighty eight such claims revealed some significant delays resulting apart from a lack of clarity about the documentation required without clear information on what documents to submit ask wilkinson may continue to experience delays further while d o d requires medical screenings of civilians before and after deployment state requires screenings only before deployment prior g a o work is found documenting the medical condition of deployed personnel before and after deployment was critical to a den of fine medical conditions that may have resulted from deployments the third part of my written statement addresses the a did us occasion and tracking of deployed civilians each of the selected six agencies included in our review provided us with a list of deployed civilians but none had fully implemented policies to identify and track these civilians d o d for example had procedures to identify and track millions but concluded that its guidance was not consistently implemented while other agencies had some ability to identify and track civilians some had to manually search their systems the us agencies made critical information on the location of movement of personnel which may hamper their ability to intervene promptly to address the merging medical issues that concludes my remarks will be pleased to take questions from the committee so desires thank you so much this is gerald thank you good afternoon cummings and miss norton i am here today representing the secretary defense and all of our civilian employees who deployed to our sphere environments like iraq and afghanistan on their behalf let me thank you for your strong support of our programs and benefits that help compensate and provide incentives for our deployed work force the department of defense civilly and employees play an integral role in supporting our military members around the globe in all types of operations since two thousand and one more than forty one thousand civilians have served or are currently serving in direct support of our u s military operations including twenty six thousand to iraq and seven thousand nine hundred to afghanistan we are proud of our brave men and women who have served their sacrifice service and experience are valued respected and recognized as career enhancing regrettably our work force is not a new and from the inherent risks of these missions some of our employees and their families have made the ultimate sacrifice for our country for these brave injured and fallen civilians for all their colleagues who have answered the call to serve and for all those who will answer the call in the future the department is committed to ensuring that these employees have the highest level of  need as may be needed to serve our noble mission the department has learned that the dynamic an asymmetric twenty first century mission challenges require greater and more expeditionary capability within our work force in response to these expeditions remissions the department developed a new framework through which an operator an appropriately sized subset of the department of defense civilian workforce is pretty identified to be organized trained and equipped in a manner that the scylla takes the use of their capabilities for these operational requirements these employees are collectively known as a civilian expeditionary workforce or the c e w we have learned that our employees volunteer for these types of assignments primarily because of a desire to serve our country to witness the results on the ground to make a difference and to engage in this type of work they believe it is an honor and a privilege to serve our country and to support our wharfies its war fighters and in return they bring back broaden perspectives critical experiences and a deeper understanding of their role and support of our expanding missions the men and women who answered this call are making a critical difference building a strong civilian expeditionary workforce however also requires promoting the right incentives and benefits to help compensate for the inherent risks of these missions thanks to the strong support from congress we have been able to offer many additional financial incentives they certainly include the thirty five percent danger pay allowance and thirty five percent post differential and allowances and benefits is comparable to those provided by the foreign service that benefit was offered to all federal civilian employees they include such benefits as enhanced death gratuity travel home leave emergency visitation travel and rest and recuperation trips are d civilian singled out the authorized are in our trips and the foreign service benefits as particularly critical to maintaining a level of effectiveness during these extended months of employment we've had enhanced begley operate options from the congress approved premium pay cap waivers the elimination of the aggregate b k pat kate pay caps this incentive permits are deployed civilians to maximize their earning power in the year in which they are serving in these economic times this incentive has been most valued and appreciate the secretary defense global war on terrorism medal and the defense of freedom medal for those who are injured or killed in the order this one is similar to those of the military's purple heart in terms of medical screening and medical care for deployed civilians a department does take seriously the need to protect the health of our deployed civilians and to medically assess all those who serve our expeditionary requirements and as was stated earlier prior to deploying all d o d civilians are required to obtain a physical examination in addition they are required to have a pre deployment health assessment within sixty days prior to their departure these two pieces of information combined provide a baseline for wellness upon their return from deployment the d o d s civilians are required to have a post health assessment within thirty to sixty days following their return for deploy from deployment and a health assessment and reassessment within ninety one hundred days from their return we have also established the armed forces health surveillance center which now collects these data and is able to track and monitor the completion of both the preem post house assessments the department offense established medical treatment policies that ensure civilians who become ill contract diseases who are injured or wounded while deployed in support military forces engaged in hostilities receive medical evacuation and health care treatment and services in our military facilities at no cost and at the same level in service the department looks forward to the opening of the national intrepid center of excellence on the campus of the national na medical center in bethesda which will be the premier health care resource in the department of defense for psychological disorders as well as p t s d and traumatic brain injury and finally we must address the critical role families play in the support of our d o t civilians who deploy the department continues to strengthen its capacity to serve families of d o d s civilians better we require family care plans to ensure that there are powers of attorney in effect designated beneficiaries and to ensure that our benefits our families are aware of and serving in difficult and dangerous places including afghanistan and iraq i look forward to sharing with you some of the concrete steps we have taken to address the critical needs of our employees and their families under the leadership of secretary clinton our men and women are working to renew america's leadership through diplomacy that enhances our security advances our interests and demonstrates our values they're doing inspiring work under difficult conditions currently that are over nine hundred positions where no family members are only certain categories of family members may receive because of dangerous conditions or other severe hardships in two thousand and one there were approximately two hundred such positions this steady increase in assignments to difficult and dangerous regions reflects the department's concerted effort to send the foreign service wherever it is most needed our men and women are answering the nation's call to service and putting their lives at risk for the american people the call to serve has been a hallmark of the foreign service we have fully staffed our missions in iraq and afghanistan with volunteers volunteers who have stepped forward to serve in these highly dangerous yet critical missions in recognition of their service we offer a broad package of benefits incentives and support structures this package has improved greatly since when i served in iraq in two thousand and four and two thousand and five mr chairman let me share with you some of the benefits we now offer to our employees and onward assignment preferences mr chairman we also know that the medical and mental well being of our employees is critical as is support for their families during and after their assignments to address those needs we have expanded the medical services available pre departure at post and after completion of the assignment and we expanded the scope of our family liaison office to provide support to employees and family members during an unaccompanied tour all employees assigned to afghanistan in iraq attend pre departure training that familiarizes them with security issues unique to combat zone assignments it alerts them to the causes and the signs of stress related conditions and it provides them with techniques for managing the stress of being in a war zone following in a high stress assignment we conduct a mandatory high stress out brief that helps employees recognize post traumatic stress disorder our office of medical services a stablished deployment stress management program with a broad board certified psychiatrist to service director to social workers and an administrative assistant additional mental health personnel have been assigned to the health units in baghdad and kabul employees who are identified as possibly suffering from stress related disorders and who require treatment that is not available locally are assigned to a six to seven week program of treatment conducted by our medical office to support essential continued monitoring we have developed an assessment system for department state employees who have served in combat zones to screen for p t s d through our deployment stress management program and our family liaison office has expanded in size to work with our families while the employers serving in an unaccompanied tour we are currently working with our colleagues at the office of personnel management and the department of defense to examine the compensation benefits available to deployed civilians to ensure that it meets our needs for recruiting and retention if changes are needed the administration will put forth a comprehensive proposal to address the issues adana fide with the goal of regularizing authorities across the agencies this  interagency approach has made considerable progress and we look forward to working with congress to support all federal civilian employees serving in sounds of armed conflict in conclusion mr chairman we believe that our employees and their families deserve comprehensive support before during and after their overseas assignments the need is particularly great for those serving at our most difficult and dangerous posts the department of state has worked hard to provide benefits and programs that support our employees but we recognize that our work may never be truly done as we adapt to a changing world thank you for providing me with this opportunity to appear before you in the members of the subcommittee and i look forward to receiving your questions thank you thank you just an advisory i'm hopeful that we can hear the last two pieces of testimony before we break for votes votes are going to be called very shortly and they are the last most of the day so we'll take an appropriate break when that or notified of that and john berry i want to thank you for inviting the office of personnel management at this hearing today and for your commitment to federal paying benefits we are deeply grateful for the service of federal civilian employees deployed to areas of arm they put their life's in danger and they work under extraordinary challenges to get the job done o p m is committed to ensuring the government has fair and accurate compensation necessary to attract and retain an effective civilian workforce federal civilian employees who are deployed to work in iraq and afghanistan and other overseas locations are entitled to compensation that's controlled by three factors and these three factors influence the application of pain benefits first deployed civilians continue to serve under normal pay system and most pay and benefits are across the board but some are entitlements and some are discretionary flexibilities but the flexibilities are determined on a case by case basis entitlements include things like annual pay adjustment step increases over time and leave flexibilities are applied on a case by case basis for example the use of recruitment retention and relocation incentives are discretionary and may vary based on staffing needs the rules provide for some exceptions overseas for example since deployment to a war zone is considered a life of vent employees have an opportunity to like different health insurance coverage or enhanced insurance coverage the second factor is that multiple pay systems exist at home and overseas and employees working side by side in close quarters and combat sones become very aware of these differences these differences are often based on different mission and workforce requirements and are the result of separate laws they have been authorized over many years however current law does allow agencies not otherwise covered by the foreign service act to provide certain foreign service benefits to their employees serving in iraq and afghanistan and this has been very helpful third factor is that the standardized regulations administered by the secretary of state do provide a common framework for payment of allowances and different to all civilian employees overseas such payments include danger pay and post to post hardship differential which combined are worth seventy percent of basic pay in iraq and afghanistan opium itself administers to special temporary provisions affecting most civilian employees in iraq and afghanistan and we are grateful that congress has provided them first o p m administers a waiver that allows a higher premium pay cap ceiling on the amount of basic play basic pay plus overtime another premium pay the higher cap permits the payment of premium pay that otherwise would not have been payable second o p m also administers a waiver of the aggregate pale imitation which means that in addition to base pay and employees can receive all of their title fi payments the year they earn it instead of having it rolled over to the following calendar year normally the limit is the rate for level one of the executive schedule which is one hundred ninety six thousand seven hundred currently now i would like to comment on some opium initiatives in june two thousand and eight we issued a memorandum to agency chief human capital officers describing the existing pay and benefits available to civilian employees working in combat zones o p m strongly urge federal agencies to become informed of and to take full advantage of those authorities and september two thousand eight hundred p m wrote to the committees on arms services in the house and senate concerning the national defense authorization act o p m supported providing appropriate benefits to employees and combat zones and the extension of existing temporary authorities we continue to work collaboratively with d o d and state and other agencies to determine how we can provide better and more consistent pay benefits and this is a work in progress so in conclusion for the changes that we find are needed the administration will put forth a conference of proposal to address the issues identified we believe that the outcome of this process will also help assure greater consistency in the compensation of deployed civilians we want to do all we can to ensure that the civilian employees who put their lives on the line for american people are appropriately us none of us are getting any younger here it's my pleasure to him to appear here today to discuss the office of workers compensation programs role in providing benefits to the brave federal civilian employees who serve in iraq afghanistan and other dangerous areas around the world we deliver services to these employees under the federal employees compensation act or speak starting at the top with secretary solis all of us at the department of labor are fully committed to ensuring that our deployed federal colleagues and their families receive the care and compensation they deserve we know they've undertaken assignments that involve significant hardship substantial risk and that their work is critical to the success of american efforts in the mid c p is reached out to the departments of defense state and other agencies to see that workers comp claims from these deployed civilians are handled promptly and appropriately and to coordinate on issues on related issues such as pre and post deployment counseling we will continue to work with our sister agencies to make further improvements in the administration of the faith in this respect and to assist where we can in the overall delivery of services and benefits to these deserving americans to ensure that claims from deployed employees are handle expertly we've assigned that work to a special unit located in our cleveland district office this unit has received special training and experience in dealing with various types of extraordinary claims  including those resulting from overseas injuries they've developed ongoing relationships with their counterparts at the major overseas agencies and they work closely with them for example as a result of a recent specific agreement put in place following meeting last year our cleveland staff now notify the employing agency whenever they find themselves at the point of needing to deny a claim because they haven't received the information they need to pay it that allows the agency that the chance to  investigate determine whether there's more information that they can help to provide or if perhaps the injury is simply resolved cleavon is also relax their normal seek a timely standards for receipt of such documentation  so that there is adequate opportunity to obtain that medical or other information that may be difficult to track down from an overseas location as noted in my written testimony or coverage for deployed individuals although not universal extends to an extremely wide range of circumstances beyond the normal workplace nexus this includes while eating sleeping and during travel and in a whole range of other circumstances in practice the great majority of claims received from iraq and afghanistan  quickly and accurately handled and or approved of those that are not approved the great majority involved injuries or which go to the c p simply never receives any follow up medical on more severe cases or to be c p engages closely to address ongoing disability or complicated medical conditions and assigns occupational nurses to assist such workers in navigating the medical delivery system and in returning to work when medically able to do so g a o recently conducted a review of our fake a claims process for civilians injured in war zones their report included only two recommendations one suggesting that we provide a better explanation of the type of medical evidence required to support a claim for compensation and another to speed the issuance of our regulations concerning the death gratuity which was enacted in the defense authorization act of fiscal year two thousand and eight that new fico death gratuity provides one hundred thousand dollars in benefits to specified survivors of workers killed while supporting a contingent operations such as iraq or afghanistan and are interim final rule was published with respect to that gratuity on aug nineteenth this past month  making that benefit fully operative for deployed civilian workers with respect to the medical evidence issue we agree with geos recommendation that we review those instructions that accompany our claim forms and in fact we expect to issue a separate instruction form for use by deployed federal employees within the next few weeks this fact sheet will address coverage issues as well as the type of medical documentation needed in certain circumstances and will be distributed through the key employing agencies as well as the of the o w c p website i'd like to end by commending the actions reported by my colleagues today at defense and state and other agencies with respect to the overall health and safety of their employees  complex issues such as p t s d need to be addressed in comprehensive ways and many key services must come not after the fact from workers compensation or medical systems but in advance the enlightened preparation and assistance on the part of the employer in ensuring that workers get for example the pre and post deployment screening and counseling these agencies are serving their employ he's well they're maximizing their ability to perform both in the stressful environments and when they return and they're reducing the likelihood of serious injury and trauma mr chairman i'd be glad to answer your questions thank you still mark and that buzzing you're hearing is call for votes i'm going to want to hold hearings on that act and i know where he here has joined mr bilbray and me committing to that and urging our staff to prepare for those hearings and this was a pay paid advertising that will teach him for putting me on the in in combat areas o p m at that time declined to chair that interagency working group why is that and is that decision now up for reconsideration of miss farrel welcome your comments as well if you question thank you from the way i would characterize it is that we've had a very collaborative approach all along one thing that you always have to consider is what's going to be your vehicle for introducing legislation do you do authorization act certainly has been the vehicle for the premium pay cap in the waiver and for other provisions that are in there the foreign service act sometimes another vehicle so deal obviously having the most employees committee of the house armed services committee to determine if legislative changes were needed and we don't want to not give credit to o p m and especially with the o d for the meetings that they have had to thousand and one and it is remained on that was our most recent was january two thousand and nine where we noted that leadership was needed in this area of human capital reform to make sure that there was a level playing field and there's much concern about the number of systems that we're talking about today that often result in differences in the amount of pay or what pay one receives and this is a responsibility of o p m where they could step up and show the leadership role  yes i'd like to add to this i think the spirit of that recommendation is now in full play because o p m department of state and the department of defense are coming together and including the actually jointly it's almost a triumvirate of leadership so i think your concerns about having o p m in the lead has been addressed through this inner agency working group they're working as full partners full leaders in this and issues such as the disparities in pay systems are after this increasingly we're using term limited employees thirty one sixty one employees one of the concerns i would have and i think this subcommittee would have is with the best of intentions what happens to those folks should they suffer a medical condition in the service of the country and or should p t s d post traumatic stress syndrome somehow occur or make itself manifest long after the five year term is over we know that if you're in the military we deal with that but if you're a loaded term employer thirty one sixty presumably we would not unless the and other benefits and those are on the table for discussions we just haven't reached on ministration position yet but what we are concerned again this is one of our recommendations much is to be learned from d o d in this area of how they have tracked their military personnel and conducted the pre and post the now the real reassessments after deployment the lessons learned i think from what should be with the civilians because as we noted in our statement many of the civilians do not have assessments after deployment and as you mentioned post traumatic stress disorder often shows up six months after they return we're going to have to vote and we have five votes fifteen minute vote that's the one right now and then there  four five minute votes presuming that's it and hopefully that's it for the day so bear with us it's going to be about i'd say quarter maybe sometime quarter after roughly if you can hang in there with us because i think there's a lot more with like to get to and talk to give the interruption but it's as i said the nature of the beast here i appreciate your indulgence obviously one of the things we're going to want to talk about is the uneven and even this how we're treating men and women who serve overseas and what services are allowed and what services are made available by sufferance and what if any changes we ought to make to try to move more toward a uniform policy and make sure that quality services are available to our men and women serving overseas also want to get back to the problem of time lags on claims and complaints before you go though i might note that if the thirty on sixty one employees you were just referring to our i believe federal employees so they have saeco coverage regardless of the limitation of their of their appointment and that coverage would continue in perpetuity for latent diseases  ok we'll come back this hearing is in recess until our votes are over and we recalled the hearing  we were discussing thirty one sixty one term employees and i want to miss farrel if you might comment from gio's perspective on deployment of term employees and the issue i think mr hallmark it indicated that they had health care benefits in the event of p t s d showing up for example years later i thought the words you use were in perpetuity is that correct that's our understanding as well that what's been conveyed is correct about those temporary employees combat related or environment related obviously they don't have health care benefits and perpetuity correct could you expand those who are d o d employees fall under the worker's compensation program and they have access to medical care free of charge if you will determine to be covered by this at their own private medical care ok i'm deployed to afghanistan to help in the popular education program and crop substitution program and unwittingly witness to and involved in hos fire some kind of for matic incident i'm not hurt i get on with my business as a matter of fact i resume my duties in afghanistan and when my chair is up i feel fine i come home ten years later out of the clear blue i'm shopping at the mall ad all of a sudden i hear a lot of noise and i'm back in afghanistan and all of a sudden i'm not the person my wife thinks i am and neither am i and clearly i need some help and i eligible still for that role medical care and where do i go as anon as a as a non former  in the sample you give would have the opportunity to file a claim under fico if they learned of the connection between this condition that has evolved ten years later and their employment and they file the claim within i believe it's three years of the time they knew or should have known of that connection so there's plenty of space for that person to be able to come forward and file a claim that would then be adjudicated by c p to determine whether there was in fact causal relationship between that medical condition and the events that occurred in afghanistan and if there was then that means that you're all indicated and benefits for that condition would be paid one hundred percent by the department of labor the issue that would arise in that that probably is of concern to the folks at the table is making sure that people know that they have that capability because if there are a temporary employee and they've gone off to work somewhere entirely different there no longer within the federal civilian structure there would be a need to make sure that people as they are exiting out of that position have knowledge about what they're eligible for the missed all mark though if i could stick with the example i had and your response to it under that example we're both talking about but i'd be sent you may or may not approve the claim i submit but it would be military but my position is not an expert in post traumatic stress syndrome that expertise by and large resides in the military side of medicine in this country not the civilian side of medicine most hospitals in america don't have in depth experience with combat related p t s d so why would you limit me to my private position or a series of privatization who have no expertise in my problem which was acquired because of my experience a military combat environment well as a civilian employee nonetheless labor department doesn't limit the individual's ability we simply say we will pay for the position that you choose but when   individual would have to come to d o d and request a special permission to use the military treatment facility for their continued care there is no policy going forward that would guarantee ten or fifteen years hence and we still have the veterans thirty years later are suffering p t s d so right now the policy is on a case by case basis and frankly it's not your sufferance it's not my right it's not your sufferance that's correct you're being generous under those rules and saying yes to most cases who apply but there's no guarantee twenty or thirty years hence you'll continue that policy that's correct whereas if i were in the military and had the same symptoms at the same time in fact everything i described applied to me wearing a uniform or having wanted then by entitlement i would have access to military care and the expertise of post traumatic stress syndrome intervention that's true but the department has always as long as we can trace this back has always provided for the exception for individuals to come into the military treatment facility if they needed care and then there a couple of things that are happening that might be helpful to their not perhaps adequate substitutes but we are setting up the centers for traumatic brain injury and one of those centers is is a repository of where physicians and employees can go to get the latest information on care and so on and so that may be helpful as a resource center and certainly the department has and continues to make available its knowledge and transports knowledge across the civilian community in these cases and then for now that's what the policy is that they would come to the department defense and seek special permission to come into a military treatment facility i've not been aware of any that we've denied ambassador braun and we've talked about a lot of subjects  i don't think microphones on thank you admit that i've only been on the job less than two months so i'm not an expert by any means in the full scope of what we as a department do have in preparation for this  testimony had been educating myself on it and i am learning the difficulties that are out there in tracking former employees when an employer the state department retires we give them a copy of their medical records if they ask for it they sign the papers they go away and we don't hear from again we don't track them we don't keep in touch with them and they have no benefits accrue to them that we would have to offer them for their continued service it's an excellent point that the expertise in dealing with p t s d is centered around veterans hospitals in washington d c and quite frankly we haven't the number of cases we've seen are so small things the total six for the universe of our population that we right now haven't set up a program to to address it beyond our our tracking the employees in terms of what the department is doing to track our thirty one sixty one select this week that we've not this is been a problem those who leave us after sure periods of service how do we stay connected with them then we do feel the obligation to do that take that very seriously when we set up our new civilian readiness unit we have built in the capability there to track those folks so now all these postponements physicals and so on we have a place to track those who take them on these assessments so we know who they are and then we are taking on an outreach effort so that we stay in touch with them through their period of departure even if we do it annually through a little note that says hi we're still worried about you care about you or anything that you know services that you need please feel free to contact us to be very deliberate about it but we had to install you know a separate organizational capability to do that it still remains a challenge once agency group but we have found that some federal agencies were unaware of the fact that their employees could have killed themselves of d o d services when they come back with service related medical problems including injuries which is a little stunning given the fact that they serve two why wouldn't they have available to them the same services anybody else so what proactively is d o d doing or planning to do to make sure that all federal agencies are aware of the availability on an equal basis we did three things when the report first came out about making the communication more widespread and known mongers and the benefit more known among our communities we sent out a communication to our federal agencies and we did a briefing we brought our federal agencies in and we provided a briefing to them about the benefits that are available that was the first thing they did the second thing we did is we institutionalize that communication effort and put it on our website so that they could have access to it and the third thing that we're doing is we've developed or are developing ready to launch it by the end of the month or the end of october i'm sorry short powerpoint presentation to take someone through the process i'm sort of represented in a way that speaks to them in more easily understand terms and perhaps the policy would so that powerpoint presentation could be used in any forum where our federal agencies are orientating their giving it free to point that orientation to their folks and we think the combination of those three efforts may be helpful and ensuring that this knowledge is institutionalized in all of our  federal agencies and we'll be ready to roll out that training module as i said sometime in october i'm sure that will be helpful because i'm sure you're aware of the fact that the two individuals to your left actually represent agencies that were not aware that the state department is a part of agriculture were not aware of the fact that apparently based on our information the d o d offered the service and it was available to their employees when they came back so i mean we have work to do th carol point of view i think when i ask you is this not a weakness in the system lack of communication lack of uniformity different policies different benefits sort of a hodgepodge and  problems tracking how many of our employees or as the ambassador indicated former employees have in fact served and may or may not over some period of time need to be tracked because even if they don't need it today they may in the future need medical help and services that is d and state department officials over ten thousand employees have been deployed since two thousand and one current number now fading somewhere in the neighborhood of forty one thousand this is been a challenge that  has been working on since one nine hundred ninety five and they've made some progress in trying to get a handle on it but we still need to know about the other agencies and you're exactly right you need to attract a dentist track their movements issues  develop ears after deployment and in order to have that communication you have to be able to identify them and know where they are thank you and mr equips i think i hope that's a message to be brought back to o p m leadership because if p m isn't going to take the lead in trying to create some sense of equity and uniformity across the board for our civilian workforce serving in you know dangerous environments who is it can't be d o d they've got their hands with their of their own challenges i just think it's got to be somebody like o p m and that's why i would hope that with the new administration new leadership the issue of chairing that interagency group would be revisited and  certainly take this information back to i thank you and because we have time and we have one more panel i have one more question and that has to do mr hallmark among the g a o findings  no where near eighty percent what kinds of changes you think are going to be necessary to try to bring that number down to something more satisfactory i'm not aware of the eighty percent satisfaction finding but we're working as i said in my comments every day to try to improve the performance i think it's think of process is a joint interactive process that  well one of the things that we've done is set up a process whereby we communicate out of our cleveland office with the employment agencies where a claim has reached the point where we don't believe we can accept it so that we give the agency a chance to help us come to the right outcome i think that's working result in some cases the case taking a little longer than it would in the normal course but we think that's the eighty eight that took significantly longer than the goal of forty five days in some cases twenty percent longer than that so again back to the person following the claim not having a clear goes to what mr hallmark talked about some things have changed since the day the report was done by the g a o to fix the problems that were found at that time obtaining the appropriate evidentiary documentation is very difficult in a war zone and early on we learned that these folks would come back and the physicians who even attended to them in the beginning were not even a longer part of the federal government and so it was hard to go back and try and accumulate the documentation that was needed and today their assistance in place to try and help gather that documentation and with the intervention of the federal agencies by allowing a little time for us to intervene before they deny a claim allowing us to get into helping to assemble that documentation we've been able to help improve the processing and i think the outcomes for the individuals thank you and let me just say to all of you and mr mark in particular you know this is the oversight and government reform committee we are at war we're running two wars right now and irrespective of how one may feel about that the men and women who serve whether they are in uniform or their civilian federal employees  federal agency x both of them you lose their left arm both of them are treated in field combat medical facilities with expert here but one of them comes home to a medical a military medical system and the other does not necessarily and over time we have two different approaches to two different individuals who did the same work or i'm sorry serve the same purpose and were involved in the same accident with the same injuries and there are issues of equity that flow from that and fairness and we want to make sure that at the very least there isn't a delay and that if we need to facilitate their they're having the evidentiary documentation they need then let's help them but eighty percent doesn't cut the mustard final point this is gerald we get complaints from a lot of civilians who do have access to military medical care in these circumstances who because of a bureaucratic snafu however cannot get the necessary credentialing to in fact have access to the base now when i was chairman of fairfax county i had my own stickers on my car by virtue of that capacity for fort belvoir and i wasn't seeking medical care daily or weekly these brave men and women need we need to facilitate their access to the base without bureaucratic hassle and security is one thing these people have been through hell and back we need to help them so i'm going to count on you to please take that back to d o d we don't want to be hearing about those kinds of problems th got enough to manage without that absolutely i think you'll be happy to hear that we are going to be modifying the credentialing card that we give so that the back of it gives then swipe back to the bases and so on so we're hopefully we fix that problem i thank you all so much thank you for your forbearance on the schedule of the house of representatives and thanks to serving the country we we may be submitting some additional questions for the record when appreciate your getting back to us thank you all very much our second panel and i'm going to read this while you are shuffle in seats we have two members of our second panel dr jonathan shay who's a clinical psychologist recently retired from the department of veterans affairs of peace and clinic in boston  massachusetts my hometown where he garnered imminent expertise in the treatment of combat trauma suffered by vietnam veterans in two thousand and four two thousand and five he served as chair of ethics leadership personnel policy in the office of the u army deputy chief of staff of personnel the say is also the renowned author of the killings in vietnam combat trauma and the end doing of character and has read reese has written more recently a book odysseus in america combat trauma and the trials of homecoming and he promotes the adoption of policies to minimize future psychological trauma it's also serving on this panel is miss susan johnson miss johnson is the current president of the american foreign service association and has served in iraq a senior advisor to the ministry of foreign affairs and the office of the high representative in bosnia and herzegovina as deputy high representative a supervisor of bytecode district did i pronounce that ri burch as she recently said the scenic ordinator in the front office of the bureau of democracy human rights and labor welcome both and if you would rise to be if you would raise your right hands do you promise to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth i thank you let the record show both witnesses indicated in the affirmative we have your prepared testimony and i thank you mr chairman i see that the ranking member is no longer here so i am as you so kindly pointed out someone who learned his chops from combat veterans as a psychiatrist in the v a veterans have been wonderful teachers and you were kind enough to mention my two books and as much of an obsessed author as i am i don't have to mention them again they the veterans have made me their missionary to the military forces on prevention of psychological and maro injury military service and it's been an amazing trip from a in the course of it and you mentioned that i've worked for general jim jones now the president's national security advisor for the army g one lieutenant general hagenbeck and most recently an interesting gig at the army war college i'm not a universal expert i believe that what i've learned about soldiers and veterans probably has applicability to other populations other folks who are going into harm's way risk to the military people as to how to protect their people is threefold to provide for stable face to face community when going into danger train them together send them into danger together and bring them home together it's not rocket science the second is expert ethical and properly supported leadership the third has prolonged cumulative training for what they actually have to do and face so my montra is over and over cohesion leadership training cohesion leadership training as the keys to preventing psychological and marl injury now this is an easy sell to military because there are also combat strength multipliers i do not know the world the diplomat or the agricultural specialist or the person from the f b i assigned to some investigative duties in iraq people would have to make these translations for themselves and in my written testimony i tried to use my imagination as to how non d o d agencies might hear my words to the military for their own purposes  i apologize for anyway these recommendations might be off base that's it comes out of my ignorance i'm not a universal expert but i do feel quite confident that some of the things that i say are of merit and that is to always as far as possible to be thinking in terms of teams that you're not deploying people to a word zone one by one by one by one but as i work communities in the matter of leadership and policy or leadership policy if you wish i want to emphasize something that is probably counterintuitive and that is that there needs to be policy on sleep  sleep crops up again and again as a cause of psychological injury and something that keeps it going on finally on training i would hope that our federal agencies are making use of hostile environment training i know that journalists sometimes get it the b b c trains all their war work correspondents they give them hostile environment training and that the teams to the extent that they are deployed as teams must cross train so they know each other's jobs that's a very positive thing now this is really good for the agencies to do this not out of pure humanitarian impulse or a sense of responsibility but it's good for you because terrible things happen when your employees acquire bad psychological injuries and the worst of these are operational paralysis desertion people check out psychologically were physically and unfortunately there is always the potential for recruitment to extremist causes people who carry these injuries and i'm not running the risk that somehow it's the political right that has a unique attraction the sorry history of weimar germany indicates that both the political right and the political left and the anarchists and the  criminals are equally capable of recruiting people who are vulnerable to it because of their psychological injuries thank you jack to shallow come back obviously to that that the seas in and questioning  miss johnson mr chairman on behalf of afa and the employees of the member agencies i thank you for the opportunity to speak before this committee on the subject of benefits for federal employees deployed abroad warmly welcomed the renewed bipartisan commitment to investing in our civilian diplomatic and development services key to that investment is ensuring that all the men and women who are patriotically serving our country overseas particularly in combat zones whether military or civilian are being taken care of and receiving well earned benefits making the focus of this hearing both urgent and welcome so thank you again the g a o report on human capital highlights the major compensation equity issue facing members of the foreign service the loss of locality pay when junior and mid level members of our services are deployed abroad this overseas pay gap represents a major inequity within our agency's junior and mid level foreign service members now take a pay cut to serve it one hundred eighty three of two hundred sixty seven overseas posts that sixty eight percent of them which often effectively zero zero the hardship and danger pay allowances for everyone except those at the senior levels this problem faces foreign service personnel across the u s government not just at state but id the foreign commercial service the foreign agricultural service and the international broadcasting bureau i'm pleased to report that the first steps to resolve this issue through a phased approach over three years have been taken but further authorization language is needed to finish the job by two thousand and eleven completely closing this gap and ending a longstanding and divisive inequity remains a top afzal priority i'd like to thank secretary clinton and undersecretary for management pat kennedy for their dedication efforts on this issue and for working closely with africa to find a solution and of course we would like to thank the many members of congress that have helped correct this unintended inec inequity turning to the other recommendations of the g a o report overall asks us supports the recommendations that g a o made to the state department in this report we also agree with state's response and its action plan to implement these recommendations particularly the mandatory medical screenings upon completion of assignment in a combat zone members of the foreign service should not have to worry about being able to receive the medical care they need while deployed abroad particularly in war zones after agrees with the g a o that this policy needs clarification and encourages the department of defense and the state department to coordinate and communicate the policy more clearly to employees deployed abroad asked applaud state departments new deployment stress management program d s m p a community based program to support psychological health of members of our foreign service aside assigned to high stress high threat unaccompanied tours we look forward to working with the state department to ensure that d s m p continues to meet the needs of the foreign service one area that the g a o report does not address and that we would encourage this committee and the g a o to review is support for dependents of foreign service members and other civilian employees who are deployed abroad at unaccompanied posts we would like to see the services provided to family left at home brought more closely in line with those provided by the department of defense to military dependents in similar situation through the military one source program thank you for the opportunity to testify and for your support we appreciate your leadership in convening this hearing and asked hopes to continue to be a resource to you and to the subcommittee in representing the views of the foreign service i'll be happy to answer any questions you may have thank you so much mr johnson i thank you both again for your testimony and your forbearance as well with the vicissitudes of house voting  extent the federal civilian employees have the same kinds of risks when they're deployed in hostile environments as the military for psychological injury clearly there are certain risks that they don't face every soldier faces the risk that he's going to fire his weapon at someone that he then realizes he shouldn't have and carries that on his soul for the rest of his life and that's terrible and civilian employees unless they're armed or don't face that but in terms of the general exposure both to personal threat but also so to speak the moral exposure to witnessing terrible things happening to other people whether it's them getting blown up or a is brutalizing b and nobody's doing anything about it and that awful things that people witness in war  well in other words putting aside the first example you gave because presumably somebody for a given department civilian employee is probably not armed or may not be authorized we are but duty vast majority of those as a result of terrorist attack either blowing up of embassies snipers blowing up of cars or other attacks of sorts in addition certainly in both iraq and afghanistan  civilian members who are serving in p r ts and are serving all over the country say many if not all of the same risks that their military counterparts do and certainly witness much of the and marl injury based on things that they know were done by other people on the basis of their decisions that were the information that they gave to others and i would not be surprised if there are and now i guess injuries in the foreign service world where people know they made decisions or gave information that led to a horrific outcome an intended outcome but they carried that with them i don't know to what extent this exactly relates to that perhaps dr no better but certainly we saw and i served in  iraq from july through december of two thousand and three and several of the iraqis in the foreign ministry that i worked with were assassinated targeted and assassinated directly as results of visibly working and cooperating with us and so that's something that you do carry that here someone that you have worked closely with and who has worked with united states who was then assassinated as a result of that sure you could feel terribly guilty about should folks come home in the civilian workforce should they have available to them veterans affairs medical care should the v a be open to previously deployed federal civilian employees it appears to me that the v a or the bet centers or as i've heard about for the first time today i was unaware of the military treatment  facilities this is an obvious opportunity for congress should it wish to by legislation to create that eligibility think that having options generally you know it creases the ability to handle whatever issues that you're facing so i think it's good to the extent that we're facing a very complex difficult problem and to a certain degree some uncharted territory so my instincts tell me that in those cases options having options are better than not having them and as i mentioned in another option for congress some like the g a o could do a study of what kind of expertise is out there outside of the normal places to find at the v a the vet centers the military medicine stablish men and where these people are i'm not suggesting that they create a directory but i think it's important given the need that these data be gathered and analyzed so that we know what the resources are you both heard the previous discussion with the your previous panel members and i wonder what your take is i mean i some of the requisite i mean a sigh resident expertise in the world on for example brain injuries is apathy that's  t some of the residents expertise in the world on getting a prosthetic devices dealing with amputations and rehabilitation related to that including the emotional management of a boat is that walter reed brook army medical center as that's right or they are the army medical center it's actually so someone comes back from the state department similarly injured with needs he or she is in theory shepherded to civilian side of medicine where comparable expertise to simply not exist and as we as you heard the state department and the department of agriculture who were at this table weren't aware actually were not aware of the fact the d o d had opened its doors in these circumstances on a case by case basis at their sufferance my words not theirs and they've been good about it but but if you don't know about it you're not going to get the high quality care available to your military counterparts who comes back a wounded warrior and veteran i wonder what your observations would be about that situation well it's it's something that one becomes very familiar with when dealing with combat veterans and that is that it is a matter of luck and can be very capricious as to whether the injured veteran and the resources get together smoothly and quickly and effectively or they pass each other like ships in the night or they collide in some terribly messy crash and everybody gets h finding ways that this wonderful phrase seamless transition that's a great line of public prayer the hard part is making it actually happen and happen reliably i i think it's excellent that the committee is you know focusing on some of these i would say over the horizon but actually they're they're closer than that now we are increasingly seeing civilians deployed in what we're calling i guess  and conflict it's inevitable sadly that more of them are going to be suffering various types of injuries whether physical or psychological moral emotional i think we need to be looking at what is the  sensible and effective way to provide you know fair and equivalent treatment i don't know if it's the same as doc said maybe this would be a very suitable topic for a study to take a look at it and see what's the best solution but civilian side needs to be looking at what are we going to do to support our civilians who are serving in zones of armed conflicts along with their military counterparts you'll ask published its third annual poll about a year ago a little while year and a half go now did you pick up anything in the poll in terms of attitudes of your members with respect to compensation and benefits while deployed in iraq or afghanistan on the quality of the well i if i could quickly summarize sort of the main results of that poll and i hope that we'll have a chance to do a follow up one not too far  future certainly the page asperity in the locality pay in the canceling out of hardship and danger pay was a top priority iraq and afghanistan staffing concerns of broad variety came a close second  other things relate more to internal state department procedures unfair assignment promotion policies and and one thing that maybe relates to this is a perception that  the workplace in the foreign service is one of diminishing family friendliness and in becoming more and more difficult to sustain or maintain family units and putting more and more stress on them not just members the direct employees but their dependents and their family i don't believe that it you know addressed directly the question that you asked but that could be something we could look at in the future yeah on the family friendly thing i earlier this year was on a trip to a country i won't name whose ambassador u s ambassador was married to another u s ambassador who is in a very different country and a very different part of the world and it made you  wonder i'm sure that's a good thing i'm glad we're tapping into their talent but it's got to be a strain on their marriage and their family ok dr say i've got to give you this opportunity you've written two wonderful books and and if you were to write a third from a killie's to a disuse how would you compare the experiences you document in vietnam with what we're i mean what are the differences and similarities with the experience we're now experiencing book that is really a military professionals and policymakers called trust within fighting forces that's been hanging around my neck like an albatross and i'm trying to get it its bottom but i'm the guy that said war is war is war is war and it hasn't changed in three thousand years as far as what matters in the heart of the soldier and that the obstacles to returning to civilian life many of those haven't changed in three thousand years is as long as humans pursue this hideous practice of war it's going to hurt people physically and psychologically and we have to protect them as best can and heal them as best we can when they do get hurt i mean anything in particular strike you as either absolutely similar to or absolutely different  from the previous experience of you know when you look at the climate in vietnam is very different than the climate in iraq iraq and afghanistan or at least most parts of it i think there are some quite tropical parts vietnam i guess i was getting at not so much the difference in climate geography as the similarities or differences and trauma or injuries suffered  armed combatant and would quote unquote legitimate targets necessary targets and protected persons to use the terminology obey the law of land warfare  i think it's clear in this conflict as it was in vietnam that the distinction between a legitimate target and a protected person means every thing for the future mental health and  moral integrity of the person who's been in war and those people who glibly say no there are no rules in war don't understand the heart of the soldier they don't want to know themselves to be murderers and i i know for a fact that this is the point of view of our military leadership today just a couple of weeks ago spoke to the commanders conference at the hundred first airborne and they made it very clear that the marl dimension of what they do is critically important to them and i for one stand up and she here because it's what will protect their mind and spirit and if i can just make one comment about what we've heard in the previous panel i got a clarification on the fly about this forty one thousand civilians number and i'm told that is forty one thousand department of defense civilians so this number does not include any other federal employees number one and number two totally leaves out federal contractors who are working either directly under federal contracts were are working for subcontractors larger very good point because we know that there are a id folks and contractors associated with that we know that there are department of agriculture people department of labor people some forth and so on so there are a lot more than just the forty one thousand service today i want to thank you both so much for sharing today and your thoughts if you have additional material you want to submit to the record would be delighted to have it and i want to thank you again for your forbearance with our schedule today is very helpful to this attendance purpose of hearing is to examine existing policies in the range of employee benefits available to federal civilian employees serving a designated combat areas the chair ranking member subcommittee members will each have five minutes to make opening statements and all members will have three days and was dismissed statements and additional questions for the record i'd like to welcome everybody here to this afternoon subcommittee hearing