ok this is the time the place for the meaning of the border the pills for the city of holland we are here to consider applications for myriad says and for special exceptions this board must try to interpret each application as it relates to the ordinance th board is not empowered to rezone nor take any action that could be considered rezoning applications do need to meet a number of crucial tests in order to be granted for those of you who are here and of already answered those questions in your application will go through again tonight there is a procedure guide available we ask that you come to the microphone here to speak and when you do so that you state your name in the address so that we can make the appropriate notes we typically hear the applicant first followed by anyone supporting the application then we'll hear those in opposition at that point will close the public hearing in the liberate once we close the public hearing there is no further public comment you're welcome to stay for a deliberations and what we decide if you elect not to stay you may call city hall after eight thirty tomorrow morning to find out what w stairway at sixty eight west seventeenth street this theory would be three point two feet over the property line where the setback from the property line is requested to be five feet thirty nine goes to eighty five thirty nine one eighty seven d thirty nine s four o five c hello hello you are the kulin home sixty eight west seventeenth street helen miskin point i'm forty three all right filson what are we trying to do here ok so my are the exterior steps in on the outside of my house and i got this construction is fine but the it was there i v of five feet on that side of the house you need to have a minimum of five feet but but my special circumstances i guess i would say is that  going to the u n i'm looking at the screens that are flashing up here you can see what i'm seeing over there on the monitor it's already in via violation vance because it's not five there wasn't five feet my steps are four feet and it already comes from there so there wasn't five feet right to start it's still on your property right and and it's still on my property except they're in on the whole neighborhood all my houses and including the new construction on  new construction on sixty seven west seventeenth street those built in two thousand and thirteen so it's new and old just like my neighborhood has this violation of the setback and even my neighbor this i like and i went and i measured all the neighbors his roof and part of his guessing electric meter is on my property and they go along like that the whole all y all along so this is if you can see the screen here this is your house right and so we've got where dan's cross hatching that's your new stairwell  and so part of it's on your property and part of it's on your neighbor's right what happened it's all over i don't know if it was zoned i don't know if it was drawn long at the beginning i mean i don't know but all of so so i got my neighbors you know they signed a thing that they said they were fine my neighbors and the thing is it was a detriment to the neighborhood it wasn't pulling down anything and my neighbor whose property i am on wrote a stairs are part of it's yours part of it your neighbors that wrote this letter correct do you have any sort of easement or legal title to that property that you're stairs or correct me if i'm stating this wrong but i don't think that grants her legal right to put in the stairway there right that's right and at the easement excuse me the variance actually is a varian on both sides of the proper time for both lots because there's an encroachment into the required side yard area on the neighbor's property of the steps as well and in order to do for the applicant to apply for a variance for that side of the outline she needs to have a property interest in it that would be appropriate an easement being a document that gives you a property right in that strip and a right to have it permanently there as opposed to a letter which could be revoked next month and said steps so  get that easement like do i have time to get that these and these are because i do it yeah so here there's a number of you know your situation raises a number of interesting problems ok none of which are necessarily really great for you because that means a lot of work in order to keep the stairs or put the stairs there we would need to give you a variance for your property you would need to get in easement off of your neighbor's property and we would need to grant a variance for their property right right and not necessarily in that order neighborhood services would have to evaluate what happens with an adjustment of the property line there that rights that would make the problem go away if it legally can be purchased right and that would be just the property every the staircase would have to be the property and the additional space to well i guess i'm having a concern because it's like being twice dead if it's already if the variants for my neighborhood and all the other neighborhoods and buildings in my neighborhood have already violated this this code and it's and it's been established not just new not just old houses but new as well i don't understand why  that part is the issue i understand fully why being over part of the neighbor's yard and having to do that right but what i don't understand is so that the issue in front of us is you know let's let's say for it's right here on your drive right now before the stairway is built your building is of a foot and a quarter one point two feet off of the property line so your side yard today is one point two feet so with already the very it's already smaller than the required setback we're asking us to do tonight is to take that one point into this this current situation with the house and so that's why it's there we don't have the any more you should be yeah the issue here isn't that your houses closer than five feet the issue is that the stairwell is wanting to be not only closer than five feet the closer than you are already to the property line and i think that with a nuance of what dan said was that even if you got the easement correct me if i'm wrong then you would still need another five feet to get the correct set backs and you would so you would take your stairwell plus five feet and that would be the easement into your neighbor's driveway that a correct statement and so if you're looking for something that is variance that talk about it's possible that purchasing the property is not allowed under the zoning ordinance because of minimum lot sizes minimum lot with without examining the jason property and its size it's tough to determine for sure that that lane split could be ma because in theory maybe everything's fifty five feet wide there and now you're coaching it further down and for it to come to the right and just to make a general statement many of the houses built many many years ago do not meet the current zoning because the setbacks because at that time those ordinances didn't exist and those orders went to effect basically these buildings became legal non conforming basically not conforming to the required set backs although two thousand and fourteen is  sixty seven west to them thirteen i'm sorry it's in the one right across from me and of course we're not talking about overcoaching man but we are talking about it doesn't have with respect or you do what's a back are you talking about what set back  all right if i can make the problem is sinked and simple as possible you've got a house right now that years a foot and a quarter from the property line which is well and good your cool there for the stairwell to be built we need to go closer to the property line in order to allow you to do that we need to find there something unique with the property that isn't common in your neighborhood or this type of property that would force you to go closer to the property line we need to find you know w a self created problem you didn't you didn't create this problem solved all we need to find that staying at the the foot in a quarter isn't unreasonably burdensome doesn't prevent you from that's totally fine for those old houses because the wall you can't change that so it's not it's not that in with anything wrong when they go up the steps this is just how it is ok so so it's a safety hazard because coming down those steps i mean it's really hard especially if there's an emergency so are the reason why i built the outside one is that gives me a way to get out the house especially purposes or anything like that there's a reason that i didn't create you know that's why i thought well this was kind of like the unique circumstances i didn't create this i didn't build the home or anything like that but it's really is a hazard and there wasn't any other place to put the steps i put a picture in so you can see i can't put it in the back i can't clear on that on the side the only place to put the steps was to the solving that problem so maybe what we should do is go back to the criteria that we have ok what's the one you're not sure so let's let's walk through these criteria that is there and i think you're aware of these questions are going to be asked and then these are pretty much yes or no kind of thing but with explanation is is there you take six circumstance or physical conditions of the property they're not due to the applicants personal or economic the applicant or previous owner yes will strict adherence to the requirements under reasonably prevent the owner from using the property for permitted use  saw the picture if you get an idea it's bad so yes i would definitely say yes to ok is the requested variance the minimum variance necessary to do substantial justice to the owner and neighboring properties i would say yes it will be various causes a positive or no impact on surrounding property property values or you should join me in the property or yes i even went to our city assessor to find out why mess up his resale value because a nice lady in the zoning office ask me that question so i went and did my homework on it so it doesn't hurt there and as you can see the neighbors and and the man himself think the construction is fine there's not a construction problem it's not ugly you guys saw the picture of the steps and because they are they see what it really is not just what it would have been on paper so they are getting a realistic view of her getting a realist you have this is what it is so so yes oh ye try to think how we want to move forward here  we can vote on your application as it stands but they only get you up to your property line and saw you you've still got other hoops to jump through after that right i had to find out about i had to find out about whether it's even feasible to buy the property additional footage i have to find out if that's even legal is buy the property underneath your stairs and around it right assuming that the owner next door can sell it to you and not make their lot too small correct you know so it would be optional on option one doesn't work then option two is get the variance for your property get the easement from your neighbor and get the variance for their property as well right absent option one or option two being successful the stairway can exist correct well today are ok just trying to lay it all on no no i appreciate the clearness clearly because i got to do it right and i have a question if she did buy the necessary property from her neighbor she would have to buy the room for the stairs and the five feet of setback yes right otherwise should be but if you go rounds five feet all the way around plus three five you go right in the adjacent the house that that's a question here is a two family which would require additional square footage all right i'll go ahead not close the public hearing what's the pleasure of the board here i'd like to make a motion to deny it appears that this particular lot although everyone is up against the line it doesn't appear there's anything really unique going on with this particular law to justify this variance and it does feel that it is self created and it's  do i have support a second ok all right i got a second from van antwerp so ron are you ok with the findings of fact yeah i didn't quite catch what you said about the self created part the oh my believe it's a self created situation is correct that's kind of a is it not a question but it is in my opinion by prior owner yes ok got it right yes all right do you have what you need we do ok we do share davis board to make flag lots in fact all the houses would be within four hundred feet of a fire hydrant we've got to put in a road where a fire truck can turn around in the driveway all right so you're planning one curve cut correct so there's already a house in what's doesn't need one c is that going to stay here that will stay ok so will will have  a curb cut for a one sees driveway use to see planning on coming off your road or would that be its own curve cut on fortieth so that would depend upon who buys it and what plan they want to do  k they could go for the street or we could make it that they could go off of private drive all right and then foreseeing three c are planned on the same private drive or there is one ok fair enough you're planning on taking city water and sewer back to four c in three cs well we will ok you feel these are harmonious with so on three see the front yard want to base the driveway so that your case they wanted to put a successor rebuilding on the go along part of it  five this would be thirty and then these would be your side yours so you have your money so if you're ninety seven feet wide i think that gives you more options it's going to bring your house somebody else's backyard type thing but we also don't want you to box yourself into a corner so ok so so the front yard would be north to the north on all properties else anybody in opposition all right will close the public hearing what's the pleasure the board access to a public street lots will comply with the area and with requirements of the zone the district is located in the applicant has supplied a plot plan city water and sewer will be accessed from the lo forty he wishes to install one ground sign that is one hundred sixty five square feet in the area where seventy five square feet is the maximum in twenty nine point five feet high where twenty five feet is the maximum he also wishes to install the four directional signs that would be thirty two three or feet in the area which six feet six square feet is the maximum in eleven feet high where the maximum of six feet is allowed can i go over there that   thanks for having us here this evening we are requesting a couple signed variances as always or was already stated i know i will start kind of just explaining really quickly the way this site is laid out in the way it's going to function for mobility because again it does make a difference for our directional sign requests the way the trucks have to move to access the site so just to kind of point out what we're proposing at this site excuse me and as you can see it is a circular site so it's kind of a weird site to start with geometrically plus there's roads on all sides of the site which definitely makes it a little more challenging as well to work with so we're requesting the larger goal post sign the one hundred sixty five lincoln road m forty m the west side of the site and then there's interchange drive that circles the city and then there's a private driveway right here that the pilot is just north of and it's the right in right out driveway that the pilot uses so that's a private drive but it will be shared access because half of it is on the existing parcel it's being purchased and part of it is on the pilot personal so there will be cross access between the two lots which is all things that are being currently worked out so the speedway would be purchasing the entire section within the circle and then combining it as one lot once it's purchased so the way the site is going to function just to kind of give you an idea there's the forty six hundred building is in the middle there's an auto six auto feeling dispensers in front of the building along with the i don't parking along the front side and then there's also the three commercial fueling truck lanes in the to the right of the building and what those are for obviously is your box truck in your commercial fueling trucks  so they are diesel only you know diesel lanes so those are a one way lane to kind of point that out so the trucks will have to enter at this drive here and will be exit ing over here so a truck that is coming in off if they're coming heading northbound on forty they're going to have to hang a left at the light and then circle all the way around the site turn at the intersection and i know right now it says no trucks right here to go out that right and right out what will we're planning is to modify that radius of the trucks can enter here and we would have no trucks beyond this point is what would be signed for so we still would not be allowing the truck movements to exit at the right and right out which is currently prohibited it would just allow them to make the turn at the interior intersection and enter into the parcel so the trucks would enter here they would drive into under the canopy and that's why there's three separate lanes so there is a master and a satellite completed there is not just kind of an idea the building is not going to showers it's not your truck stop similar to the pilot it is more for your local trucks you know your big distributors that tend to go to your love pilot your other gas stations that they have the corporate accounts on so just to kind of give you an idea it's a little bit different use then the pilot station or you're like i said some of the other truck stops per se this isn't really considered a truck stop so just to kind of explain that one thing that's been coming came up with i know we were at the planning commission and we just revised the traffic study this tribe's going to become a write in right out we just haven't updated the drawing jefferson working on that and so the auto will also have direction to exit this location which there is room for them to get through with even if the trucks are sitting here there is where room for them to move over to exit if they needed to make a left to go left at the light on forty they also obviously can go out this driveway to make a right and forty but any any cars that want to go left and forty are going to have to go to the light that is the way it's set up currently and there's no other access  to kind of give an idea i know it's a little confusing with the different access drives in the way it's set up so what we're requesting now is the larger goal post sign which is this sign right here located here i am forty and the reason for the request is the reason for the hardship is the shape of the site with stripes all the way around we want something large enough one for a couple reasons and if trucks are and coming north and forty we want people to be able to see the side and make that left into the into the light because if they pass that there's no way to enter the site they would have to turn around and come back to enter the site so it is very important that drivers that are advancing towards the speedway station nor down on him forty know it's there in advance of actually being at the site where you're seeing it and it's too late to turn so that it also helps with any other drivers anywhere else on any of the other interior roads they can help you know see the gas prices and also if you're on lincoln road it helps direct you to make the right maneuver because you see the sign advance you get off of the expressway you're heading right now you can see there's a speed way you can get over on the right side of the street versus being in the left lane coming up to it and then trying to jerk over in front of somebody else to make a right last second so the larger signage is important to help safely direct traffic to the site expression with the a lot of we are drives on this one because of the circular driveway circular set up i guess you could say the other quest for the four directional signs we're requesting those and it's actually only the truck directional is what we're looking at and i know that says eleven foot high here the details shows a minimum maximum we can easily put those at the minimum which is a total of five point three feet tall if you look at that height of the sign and the met the minimum mounting height so that would be within the six foot permitted for a directional sign for the height the size obviously don't being thirty two square foot would be above the six square foot per minute for a directional sign and we're requesting no s is specifically at m two k j one and two and the reason for those having those larger signs as if a truck is entering here we do not want we want the truck to very visibly be able to say see that those are the truck exit signs and not enter into this strife we don't you know because of the truck enters here now they're driving against traffic the les they can't fuel because the way the canopy is aligned they can only pull in from this side and the canopy does say exit this side only and enter this side only so the larger trucks directional signs definitely help to keep the trucks flowing through the site properly again we don't want to enter at this drive so those are the winter and signs but those are the smaller signs we the reason we do the larger truck signs is so that the trucks can very easily see the sign no where to go to maneuver the site properly again there is no speedway logos signed it is not for advertisement it is strictly for directions to make sure the trucks know where to enter the site to keep it's a safety thing make sure everything's flowing properly and it's safe so those are the five signs that are being requested and i guess if you have any questions i'd be happy to answer any of for you started like to ask a question on your directional signs i want to i want to understand if you are requesting a variance to the heights or if you're not because the way the diagram was shown in the bottom there the dimensions were actually shown from the ground to the bottom of the sign and that's were we interpret it to be too too tall because of the height of the sign plus that additional measurement so i'm just asking if you are requesting it or if it was just a misinterpretation of the design this is just their standard detail we are not requesting the height variance the twenty two and a half minimum plus the forty seven and a half light at the sign would put us at five point one three feet to the top of the sign from so yeah that's the math yeah so we are not requesting the height it's only ok it is only that the  looking for area three and it would be for just these four lines here ok so you said that there was an exit only on the top of the canopy is that like g e or c two or we're not looking at any of the signage that's on the canopy because they did our interpretation of the regulations stated that they were in compliance with what they were proposing ok all right ok and then on the auto canopy i thought i saw like an f one and anyone in the d one i'm assuming that's going to say speedway or something called compliant and correct but they're all in the wrong compliance yeah i'm there's any personnel that design you'd like us to zoom in on let us know the ordinance allows for six speech square there is that correct that is correct was a rep for directional sign is any way for us to ruffle roughly make that spatial trying to fit so two by three but you rick writes i'm ok i'm trying to get an idea if i'm driving a semi am i going to see it when i pull into the gas station this board is twenty four by thirty six your pylon sign the size your pylon sign and then the size of all your directional signs and sort of look at those as three separate issues so we're all right so let's the turn and moving into that right turn driveway or again if you're coming from your down and forty to make that left at that light so the height does help visibility further away so that you can maneuver with multiple lanes of traffic into the properly to make the right turning ok so we've got five questions here what is unique either circumstances or physical conditions of this  property that drives the need for the variance the shape of the property and where the entrance dries we don't have a main entrance in the middle of the site where you you know where you're entering you have to maneuver at the intersection to get in from the one direction or the right and right out and that is further down to i mean coming this way they'll have time to make that right come right words and backtrack a little bit but it is the size and shape of the car an odd shape of the site itself ok so is the need for the variants not self created so white why can't you put the entrance drive in the middle of the property m forty will not we cannot have and that will not allow it we would prefer to our first concept show to access drive in that location however and that will not permit us to add additional curve cuts at forty i guess the question is how does the lot prevent you from putting the correct height simon again before you even get to the site so the height does help traffic flow into the direct traffic to go to the proper spot construction project manager and the actual faith of the sign is designed for the reason that signs of showing higher it's actually designed to have two signs underneath it in a typical location they show a menu board and they like a two line or three line menu changeable menu board and then a always coffee sign or beer cave sign so tell us why it's a little taller because it's me to have the two signs actually in reality it can be shorter it can be made to meet your height requirements ok it's just not shown on there because somebody had it showing like they designed it for the two other signs they didn't show on so that's the times the visibility along the road so that you can enter the site prior to even getting to it at the light to enter the project you cannot make a left turn here again let me point out this is a right and right out drive only you can not turn left into this location so they definitely have to enter at this location so having the sign higher i mean larger visibility so that they know where the site itself is and here it forces them to have that time to get what they are actually is made to order food so you go in and they actually screen you put in what you want and then you go and pay and when you come back it's ready so if you can get a penny with this this and that and you can customize it how you want it it's not just sit in a cooker staying warm like some of the you know current speed range you're used to seeing so just to kind of give you an idea so it is important for them to notify people that it is a speedy cafe so that they have they're aware of what type of items are available at that station  the catch basin of the water retention pond from the northeast corner by interchange and then forty over here i'm not like you yes i know that you well you're right in that area yes we do own this parcel here but the way the right way john that you can see this timeline is a property like this it would push the sign further away from the intersection and actually make it harder to see if you move it towards i guess i'm not suggesting that you move the pylon son but you do know i'm not a big one for having more signs ok you got me well all right so we've got once again unique circumstances whether you created it how strict adherence is on reasonable tight dimensional to good to go to go with the strict requirements i do think it would be an issue with having a smaller sign just again for the visibility for people and three on the southbound i think i'll stop there do we have what we need right we do the right  the direction sign again the unique situation is the shape of the parcel and the limited access points to get to where you have to enter and have to exit it's a safety item again so the trucks do enter in the right spot and they're not if you have a truck coming in here we don't want them to get confused and enter somewhere else they want to be able to visually see the signs make their way around and they're safely it is very important to make sure the  get a big heavy sixty seven truck to make sure that they're entering the site at the right way otherwise it just can cause a lot of confusion so it is important to have the larger directional signs just to direct the trucks because it is hard to turn one of those big rigs around so i know i've been out there before and seen them try to go here and the people are yellin at home and it can be interesting so larger directional signage for us is very important and the hardship is again the shape and limited access to the site with the anything else you'd like to s anybody out there in opposition to any of this stuff all right thank you make you close the public hearing on directional sign area what's the pleasure of the board here i'd like to make a motion to deny court ok i've got a motion by van der support by bedard any findings of fact we've got over the shape of the property and it's questionable as to whether or not it's unique i think it is a self created issue in this case and i don't think it's a recently burdensome for them to hear the existing ordinance in place of this particular location is that enough that is yes ok yes fair ok libby yes he is yes davis yes right thank you i'm not showing any unfinished business on the agenda yeah meeting minutes would be next