they sell information about real property but what is in the record i know this is a twelve b six so when i say on the record i mean in the in the complaint of looked at the complaint but i'm still not exactly sure and maybe you can explain it from what's in the complaint this being a twelve b six as i understand it your client through computer assisted geospatial and other techniques ta somehow property descriptions meets and bounds and places them on a map and then you sell them to thirty banks to use for their backup for their security collateral or for their various loans but what what is that process how is that done is that stated in the complaint it's really as it is nots that the full description of what my clients do is not starting to compl what the complaint says in the core of the complaint that sets out what my clients do and do not do as the record on appeal pages eighteen through twenty one i believe and so what happens is banks have potentially an interestin property that interest in property is set out with a a legal description that exists already in the world they give that legal description of property needs and bones descriptions to my clients and my clients then use that that information they plug it into their computer computers are very good at drawing out meets and bounds humans not so much because of the way they are written out the computer's control of that well is that is that again i didn't see that the complaint you're on with the well the complaint says is they take this information and they put it through their system and what their system comes out with on the other side is a drawing that is that can then be overlaid by computer onto a satellite image as you would find in say google map illustrated by the drawing that's you know you point out these discrepancies now how again just what's in the complaint how how does this system allow you to note these potential discrepancies and again i just want to know what's in the complaint not some other data you might have the complaint says your honor that maybe that property description describes the wrong size property it says it's forty acres but the disk the drawing itself because it meets and down again just what's in the complaint meets and bounds it describes property by direction and distance and that direction distance describes a shape and how is that not serving under the dunder the definition in the mississippi statute your honor it's not serving because what my clients are not doing is establishing meets and bounds descriptions those meats and down descriptions are already established that's what they get from the banks that's the legal property description but i hear what you're saying but mississippi and they can correct me if i'm wrong i don't think i am mississippi thinks what you're doing there is serving the board yesterday in their right they think they say well you know we define certain you may define serving this way we define serving this way what you do is serving your honor it is absolutely clear that what the board thinks that what my clients are doing qualifies a serving now we disagree no given that this is the key question for me why then isn't what mississippi doing is regulating conduct and incidentally burdening yours your honor because what mike there's nothing that my clients are doing that is conduct they are taking creates all what about all the description of the the computer manipulations that i going on that you that you talk about i'm going to claim that's all there in the complaint why isn't that conduct that mississippi is regulating and then the speech elements and i'm going to ask them if they can see that everything you're talking about is speech why isn't an incidental conduct incidentally regulating speech that that's what i am so talking about the incidental regulation issue st run of what nicholas says is that if a regulation speech that is incidental to the regulation of conduct has to do with the speaker's condoms what is the speaker is doing that is conduct in deflower of course the speakers were speaking they weren't engaged in the conduct that's why the new full court distinguish the casey decision in the casey decision doctors are performing abortions and that is conduct not expressive conduct and for that reason the state has the ability to regulate the speech of the doctors incidental to the regulation of their conduct but  obvious because if i go to a doctor for get abortions if i go to a doctor and i'm going to have a you know a knee replacement or something the doctor the law can say hey doc you got to get informed consent from the guy st right and sure that's that's preexisting it's out there in the world to create generate more information including for the dissemination and sale of that information is speech not you know you could make the same argument for a man that's out there with the gauge making the measurement oh no this isn't conduct i'm speaking i'm telling you this is thirty feet from here to here and it runs due north yet he's done that with an instrument that you know ordered that stand your argument to any any conduct and say all this is just honor i disagree the question would be why is the what is triggering the government regulation of of what that person is doing or what my clients are doing in this case what has triggered the regulation oh it's not what hallenge where you're saying nothing we do is conduct it's all speech that is correction and because my clients are being regulated for making and selling information and that's all they do that's what they do now the difference your honor that you're getting to bed earlier when someone's actually doing a survey what's the purpose of a service the purpose of the survey is to establish property rights to established needs and bounds description of a property that is  in any number of cases are they to be going out in the field and they could be placing markers and those markers establish where you take measurements from and what the the boundary lines are they go out and they establish boundary lines and those boundary  property rights and that's what they do my clients in every case if your property by your property you decide to refinance the surveyor comes out there in recent days they don't start from scratch they take the legal description which your client does and they put it on the ground it seems to me what your client does is take that same information only from a computer and place it on a map as opposed to dany after the gram but the result is the same it term creating an image on a piece of as a license surveyor yes they are my clients of course are not licensed and not subject themselves to those sorts of regulations already surveyors have that and the state of mississippi can regulate the practice of survey that's not our position here our position is they can't sweep into the practice of serving constitutionally my client's speech well they might be able to it depends but i think that if we agree with you that they are in this as applied challenge to regulate applies therefore it's protected you know holder is an example of a case in which yes the st amendment applies to speech but no that speech isn't pretty much have to prove up there are important governmental interest and that it's reasonably right you know tailored to because i can imagine all sorts of reasons why mississippi might say well we've swept a little bit more broadly on surveying because what your client is doing or what people like your corner doing create certain problems and so we need to be able to get to that as well as the guys walking around making them do in the markers that is correct or i believe that's the point that this court was getting at in surfing which of course post dates hines predates nafta where they said where a licensing regulation sweeps in speech that is outside of the state's interest that's a problem under the st amendment that's the basis of this court's finding of the texas psychiatry psychology licensing act to be unconstitutionally overbroad let me ask you both so what i was thinking about is professions were just about everything the professional is doing is speech like a psychologist that you go whole practices i'm talking to someone what if the state regulates adap a good content of that speech is that amusing from  amendment analysis in your view your honor i don't i don't know that is and other circuits since have struggled with this idea or this this issue admittedly this is is issue comes up i think most frequently in the psychology area when you're talking about  supposed gay repaired of therapy and the th circuit in the rd circuit have both looked at this case and they think the rd circuit has the right take on this which is this is a regulation speech but it's a regulation a speech that is justified based on the factual showing that the government has made that there is a real problem here and that this law is is that the narrowly tailored way of doing it will take it out of that sort of explosive context that you aren't there cases about this states requiring doctors to give sort of advice about gun ownership if one of their one of their patients owns a gun with that's the walsh no other decision or not subject is do you agree with the result in that case or are we do here on of the th circuit on bond in that case said this is a regulation of speech doesn't matter that it's occurring within the confines of medical license or medical practice it's just speech and for that reason that gov building on the i thought you would say that's a building on what if this what if a licensed surveyor who does the meets and bounds as well as what your client does goes to mississippi and says hey look guess what you're you're regulating part of my conduct but you're also regulating my speech and so i'm going to challenge i'm going to challenge it based on the st amendment the regulation and then all of a sudden aren't we in danger of blowing up mississippi's regulation of surveyors no your honor i think for two reasons one serafin from this court already recognizes that as applied challenges to occupational licensing laws is possible under the  bennett again it depends on the facts of every case that's the nature of as a play challenges the nd reason is as we stated in our brief most state occupational licenses in most instances won't implicate the st man at all because they really do regulate conduct not speech prescribing performing surgeries anything like that it's only in these think rare are cases where you have an occupational license regulating what is purely speech without a conduct hook and that's this case in your client it's the end result is a drawing out piece of paper right there is correct or there's some conduct involved i mean maybe the computer generates the information and draw comes out with a figure better it's even if the computers conduct it involves conduct involves taking information and creating a written document on which banks will last but the purpose of the regulation of the regulation applies entirely because of the community of aspect of what is put on the paper the state is regulating the canadian nation in accurate meets in bands description to being conveyed to prop people interested in property rights and that true whether your survey or simply taking the meat and bands description from the the deed and locating in on the ground at its information buying it on the ground whereas this computer takes it does a spatial drawing and puts it on paper i don't see much difference but the important thing is that the reasons it is regulated is because of the information being conveyed this goes back to the holder the holder humanitarian law actually the regulation and statute applies to creating preparing or modifying electronic computer data relative to such activities what is it you're doing that outside of that we don't do anything that's related to such activities we don't establish property rights we don't place boundaries we don't do surveys to layout land that's not what we do we take the preexisting information and we try and help thanks for your state and that book what i thought you were going to say was that that does performance of a b and c which is the nd part of the party that is my clients don't establish reestablish retrace that's not what they're doing they're not creating or recreating property rights of the record now outside your complaint that your honor our complaint says specifically that we don't do those things don't when you well again i don't want to get out of the record either but i don't know how you can create prepare amada pile like tronic or computerized data that you sell to entities i don't know how that can be conduct when you're him putting the data into the computer current my i think the state arguably has a legitimate interest and want to make sure that's accurate and then i respond of course the state may have a legitimate interest but that doesn't go to whether there's a st amendment issue here that goes to the state's justification for the restriction on the speech in the st instance and we're back to then the surreal issue which is the use creation and sale of information is speech and regulations restrictions on that are subject to the  scrutiny on the one that is correct on it in the district court in this case as i understand it subjected this application to you to know st of it is that is correct or the district court in this case said the st amendment does not apply because this is an boeing here for the employees from mississippi attorney general's office but it is that just so i understand it is the state of mississippi position the board's position that the definition of surveying as laid out in the statute does apply to what  but that's a conclusion that the courts not hard to give credence to it but they they make a number of allegations in their complaint about what precisely they are their actions are with respect to the yes i agree with you survey surveying i mean that the legal conclusion in mississippi goodness if you can regulate this if you can can say anything it wants is serving right but the question is has it defined surveying so broadly that it applies to pure speech and is therefore subject to some kind of st amendment analysis i don't think that's this case why not because each of the cases that rely upon the court to engage in some initial gatekeeping and they always gate keep out professional licensing and regulations but surely you're not taking the position that because if a state says we are engaging in the parenthood and it says certainly the st amendment rights of the doctor not to speak or implicated but soley in the context of the practice of medicine subject to  reasonable licensing and subject to regulations and why it why couldn't a flow have turned in this way and said look california has said look these these crisis pregnancy centers are engaged in the practice of medicine and we're just making them speak say but california regulates the on license practices magic medicine in the thing signed said california statute that says you have to have a license to diagnose treat and prescribe well all those process abortion can be obtained and the number phone number have been included in the medical regulation in if what you think it would come out differently speech the doctors are right not to speak which is the same kind of issue that you had and that's life which were hey give good people in here you've got to give them this information in the courts and not sending you don't have to i think where you go back to and you probably put your finger on it is the matter of informed consent would be what one of the things it would be looked at when you're talking about what triggers the state regulation in this case as applied when we go to that there's also other rationing about the professional license and so you've got yes professional space that analysis question but you still got other reasons that get you to  sign place under the traditional concepts of professional regulation possibly to keep maybe the outcome might be the same i don't know but i'm just talking about the reason the decision to the extent that it relies on a category of which is a form of kind of having a license not have a license condom there that they veterinarian would gather information they get information from other veterinarians that actually seen the  is in the in the in the what's laid out in the complaint what are they doing that is nonexpert non speech in your view well the gathering of information and processing the know draw lines on a map in they sell it do you concede i mean do you agree that some of that is clearly speech well they said you needed a computer or a computer but when you start saying here's your boundary here's where your copy is in relation to this tray this house is forever you're given a survey an opinion you know the own i guess we use it still there used to be an expression in the early computer days garbage in garbage out and that's where i have a problem with the argument that all of this is speech because i say none of this  conduct all of it is speak well you've got to put data and the computer i don't and again this isn't found in the complaint we're dealing with with as applied and a twelve b six and i am i'm just not i'm not i'm not sure that we don't have conduct here we have to of and the state has an interest in making sure just like it wants doctors to a broader way to from medical school are it's got to have it's got an interest in making sure that people that are allowing are conveying the sarbanes data which is so important and healthy a safety issue and some in that at least they are competent to do that and that's where i get have a problem with this is all speech and yes or it's a very important area of human life here it then the state could overcome whatever scrutiny under the st amendment right the district court of course if there is none yes or and i think that's what the case whoa is telling you the standard i solely and is this practice ok very planned parenthood you have a doctor providing abortions right clearly conduct that the state has an interest in regulating and then incidental to that the state says and you must reveal the for the this information but it isn't that's casey yes ok here we've got speech drawing lines on a map assume you agree th speech where's the conduct part of it that is analogous to the casey part well i think you go back to not having a long since then and on it what are they doing well they're gathering information they're processing it and then they're given a survey an opinion is that i mean is that in most of the statute the define serving what is it what is sort of the core instance of serving that the state is interested in it's a whole different thing and that in the state can regulate things as part of its licensing and its other regulations as the threshold analysis of whether you have to get into the state has a compelling answers can all these other things the case law just doesn't then support that or is is where is this conveying a surveying opinion where is that found either in the statute or in the through twenty have multiple paragraphs i mean i'm counting well together there's eighty five paragraphs but well no there's seventy seven but there's multiple paragraphs talking about what  t line with their businesses it's you know it's very very specific about what they're doing yes and that's that i think that's which is part of this and i think it's the descriptions and enters that information into its computer program to generate simple graphical renderings of the descriptions of area forty five there's london overlays the graphics on the satellite images and then the next paragraph is where it says they flagged potential meets and bounds discrepancies you know if i do that and i presented to someone and say here look at this do you agree that that is speech that communication i is quoted in hans we all agreed it talks about what it says commerce or condo and on your point on the sole basis so only long telling two classes it will the regulation is content neutral whereas in seoul you had a continent specific regulations a content neutral there's a specific kind of information that the state is interested in regulating one answer regulating descriptions of their stream rights in in descriptions of specific things right landing on trees how is that content neutral because in the same way that any professional a licensing would be content neutral the the texas statutes and lines were declared to become intent neutral nail the subject matter you're talking about medicine you're given a medical opinion or you're given a survey an opinion or even out of pure speech settings such as psychology family counseling those are things that you find regulate regulated doctor and so you must ask your patients whether they have a firearm is not a content neutral regulation i think you'd have to look at is if it's mean if it's main if it's under planned parenthood if it's implicated or into dental because of the practice then you'd information in or they take the information i would turn the owners of attention to the case that we submitted a twenty page order of fifty one you state as compared to traditional surveys there's a line charges banks very little to take the preexisting meets and bounds information from deeds or other legal descriptions so they take it they check it they they obtain it yes that's conduct him put that data into their program that's conduct generate some poll geographic graphic renderings of the bad you know that's conduct and overlay the graphics onto satellite images that's conduct respectfully or i disagree i well you may disagree but they're they're engaging in conduct to do that you  question that's taking information to generate more information and selling that information and surreal says that speech subject to the st amendment you know i would i would point you to the telescope media group case that we cited in our twenty a j letter where the state argued in that case that a in a company it was making wedding videos was engaged in conduct because it set up a camera and it set up a microphone and it intrade into a contract to produce a video and the court said there no no  look all of those things are elements going to the final product which is speech it's the video the video is undoubtedly speech and the little things that you do along the way is all part of that speech the question here as as  preexisting meets and bounds information from deeds it based on your knowledge of the mississippi regulation does that trigger the mississippi regulation are you serving then i don't believe take the meets and bounds description i don't believe that we are you ok will you when you input that banks that is my understanding of what the board thinks my client's did wrong because if my clients did all of that stuff and then just sat on it i don't think that's i don't think that serving even is the border things here we're not here talking about what what you think we're talking about a profession i'm sure your agree is the classic that needs to be regulated sorbet now you say it's not serving they say it is serving but this is certainly an area that the state can regulate don't you agree with that at least your honor we agree that the state can regulate serving to the extent that it has an interest in that the question in this case is whether there's a good reason for regulating the question i respectfully i disagree because i think the facts of this case and again this isn't as a pledge almost the facts in this case are particularly compelling our clients take this information they they sell it to banks who are sophisticated users of information who know what they're getting they have a disclaimer that the board wanted them to apply and they follow the board's current guidelines that they have promulgated and say this is this is information that you can use for your purposes it's not definitive it's this is not a survey it's not a substitute for a survey sophisticated users and they know what they're doing that's just high in the sky we're dealing with your complaint and the complaint owner says that banks are sophisticated users of this information in their banking practices and banks are certainly sophisticated practices they might be sophisticated about making loans i doubt that there is and again we've got to stick with your complaint that comment you just made out of your complaint has vastly different meanings and we can take from that that means they know what they're getting and they know whether it's accurate or not you don't of it and what we want in this area is accuracy and your honor i understand that the question in this case is district court said no one for that reason didn't apply any st minute scrutiny we haven't the state hasn't had its chance to put forward the real evidence that the st woman says the state can win on i hope we can go back on remand and then we should go back on rema allow that to happen the limited question today is does the st and then that apply and for the reasons given if law and so rome and in holder and in this court's decision surfing thank you