and now we even you know we're working with them in the g twenty and other places and it seems as though when cuba was a threat to the united states was only because of russia  and the missile crisis not because of cuba in of itself and so i don't see where cuba is a threat to the united states of america at all at this particular point that being said let me just ask miss and soon as that recently the president the united states allowed or indeed all restrictions on travel by cuba to cuba by cuban americans and i was wondering whether or not you believe that such travel should be prohibited or whether the cubans should be freed to go to  sorry could you repeat the last part of your question whether or not such travel by cubans to cuba should that be prohibited or should cubans to cuba be allowed so  any tourism or any travel anything that will bring additional means to the cuban regime of continuing its repression of strengthening itself of keeping its hold in power anything that would do that is not convenient for the cuban people that's has maintained all these years of allowing the real cuban people who are suffering to win space for themselves through nonviolent activism and that we would lose if an uninhibited flow of people bearing resources for the regime were to come into then answer my question to maybe move on because the question with a simple question of whether or not cuban should be visiting cuban americans should be visiting cuba where their family contact is family ties and that is the essence of my question is not a complicated in the words of the president that i didn't agree much with the president said civilized people everywhere have a stake in keeping contacts communication and creativity as broad deep and free as possible the way governments can best promote contacts among people is by not standing in the a way that president was ronald reagan because the time of the gentleman has expired and  the gentleman from indiana mr burton has recognized for five minutes thank you mr chairman there's a number of reasons why i'm opposed to this move or company down there pays their employees the money goes to the government and if they make four hundred dollars a month that's for duce by twenty six times because the currency they have down there is worth one twenty sixth of a dollar and these people can't go and swim in the pools or run around these hotels and have the freedom that you would expect them to america and he's one of the compatriots now with the press castro brothers and they want to turn that into a communist region and reverse everything that ronald reagan was able to get accomplished when he was president if you drive a cab if you work at a gas station or a restaurant you're prevented and once again you get those jobs only after the prevented honest has taken place and you get about one twenty sixth of what you earn if it's paid if you're paid in american dollars there is no limitation that i know of on humanitarian aid or food i've heard several of the people testify today you know that they don't get enough food to that we're stopping it there's no i talked to a supermarket chain chain in my district and they were telling me how that they are selling food to cuba on a regular basis and there's no restrictions and humanitarian aid i know is not being restricted one of the things that the k g b taught castro early on in his administration down if you want to call it that was that the way to keep control of the people is to have somebody that's a spy or whatever you want to call it in about every three or four blocks a block captain and if somebody complains about what's going on they reported to the authorities and then of course the person that's accused of that is suffers the the end result and you know you talk about travel to cuba changing things as i recall and i was talking to mislead and wrong eleonora slayton our ranking republican during the carter administration there were no restrictions whatsoever and the repression under the castro regime was just as severe as it is today people were thrown into the gulags i think armando valid heiress was thrown into jail at that particular time and i wish everybody who thinks we ought to start working with the castro brothers down there would read his book it's called against all hope and it's a clue your depiction of what people go through if they're a person that disagrees with the administration down there and is thrown into the gulag it's just horrible what they have to go through you know i was going to ask general mccaffrey he was asked by mr smith did you ever try to get into the prisons and mr mccaffrey never answered that question and i think the question was also asked of you and after i finish my remarks i'm like for you to answer that have you ever asked to go in and see political prisoners and if so were you allowed to go in and see the political prisoners and if you didn't ask is going to see them i'd like to know to know why you didn't because that's one of the major things we've been concerned about for a long time cuba is still by the state department considered as a terrorist state and i think that we ought to take that into consideration as well until there's a reversal of that with that if you'd like to answer that question i'd appreciate it thank you mr burton if there's time single time that i have gone with the congressional delegation i'm proud to say that delegation is advocate in favor of human rights including with specific names why don't why didn't you ask to go in and see the political prisoners or i've talked it's a very important hearing and i want to thank the other witnesses in their absence and those who were able to stay i want to applaud the president obama that took the constructive step of allowing cuban americans to visit family in cuba as often as they please i think it was a magnificent step and mr peters i think you acknowledge that is a policy change that is productive i started my opening remarks by suggesting that i was engaged because of my committee assignment with the elian gonzales issue or six circumstance and i believe that was right on both sides but i think we were right to reunite this child at that time with his family in cuba but i also think it's important for his miami family to be able to see and to interact with their family i believe my colleague articulated the tribulations and the challenges of african americans in this country as i understand mr delahunt legislation which i cold sponsor have co sponsored in supporting and hope that i have done so and think it is an important policy change there is no ban we have focused on tourism but frankly academicians activists human rights activists individuals who wish to engage in promoting the collaboration with afro cubans on pressing for their rights all of those individuals i understand if this was to ever become law would not be banned the question it would be of course how would cuba receive them and so my pointed questions go to the fact that i believe that we should have quid pro quo where we are stifled in many reasons our policy is that we don't speak to them we don't travel there and frankly that was the policy of china there are some of us who are still fighting the human rights abuses in china but we just had the encounter of our head of state of visiting in asia and so we are multitask and i think in cuba we should be multitasking and that is in gauge but also assess critique persist and to those who are in this audience who have been in concentrated no we are not abandoning your pain we understand the pain of incarceration and oppression for those of us who watched the horror of south africa we know what it was like to see people of our if you will kinship be so treated but look at the relationship of south africa today some of the sound so i asked you a question  about this effectively if you would you suggest that conditioning our u s policy to actions taken by the cuban government effectively puts control of our foreign policy in the hands of the cuban difficult questions as my time is going to quick answer do you believe it should be a bilateral a multi task approach eliminate the travel ban but at the same time be engaged for responses or concessions by the cuban government yes or no limiting the travel ban should be unilateral it's an existential threat to the cuban government the embargo on the other hand require lifting that embargo would require some concessions in my opinion particularly human rights side and i would not be in favor we should be is could we be of help you may have heard of the n w c be urban league which is a national activist civil rights group that african americans have in essence found opportunities you may have heard of dr martin luther king who obviously has passed with this kind of effort and energy in helping afro cubans be received warmly by you and now friends in cuba particularly afro cubans letter from my brother on tunis to the congressional black caucus who had traveled to cuba i wanted to try and meet with you so that i could explain to you the situation in cuba when i think this hearing was chairman of mine just finished i think this hearing is almost finished and if you have a letter i will stand by to the end of this hearing and receive your letter because i think american influence to the end of the travel ban would be of assistance to all cubans including afro cubans i am you translate i don't have a letter with me now i brought a letter in april directed to the members of the black caucus about a time when my people specifically my brother were suffering both in health and also from political repression they were in very bad circumstances and that letter wasn't received at that time well take the help when it's offered and it's offered today thank you very much mr chairman the only ranking member a lot of folks lifting the ban  group here they've got their stickers and thank you for being with us and i also want to point out just want to say thank you to the x political prisoners from cuba who are now residing in new jersey also for coming over views and our witnesses were very helpful when jermaine in the ones who had to leave i think it was a great example of democracy in action and clash of  views and ideas and the one thing i think entire committee share is a desire that one day in cuba that kind of peaceful clash of ideas can be expressed in the political system  of various individuals when they go to cuba do they ask to see political prisoners i want to be noted for the record that my first trip to cuba occurred in probably mispronouncing it who identified themselves as low splint toddles i have a sense that some of them here today let me just suggest this we did press the government after that visit and i certainly am not taking credit for but i'm aware that approximately nine months to we later those  released sometimes we don't know good things can happen if we continue to press and i have been on trips with mr peters i can assure you that in every single occasion we have press we have met with dissidents miriam leyva and her husband ask a chip espinosa friends of mine i know the pain and help is here and take advantage of it let me not haven't been present in april let me convey at least the openness of all members of congress including the congressional black caucus to the issues of oppressed people a nd i do want to stay behind in all sincerity either to receive information or to be able to reach back to you because if we are nothing in this country we are people who fight against oppression and we are pulling to fight against oppression on your behalf i go back to you mr chairman thank you and now they're hearing on another form of oppression and against religious freedom is going to take place by the subcommittee on middle east and south asia i believe and with that thank you all in the hearing is th excuse me if everyone we're trying to prepare for another hearing to be given to me were trying to begin another hearing so people could take seats or take their conversations outside into the testing one t in some places and particularly in the middle east people may wonder about the sincerity of americans there and about religious freedom skeptics especially in the arab world i suspect that our professed interest in the freedom of belief thought and worship is merely a cudgel we used to beat our political opponents when convenient such thinking is not only completely wrong on the facts but i believe misunderstands our national character which is always held to the belief in universal rights the hope that these rights would spread throughout the world among the founders thomas jefferson put it best in a letter sent only days before the fiftieth anniversary of our independence referring to that great july fourth fifty years earlier he wrote may it be to the world what i believe it will be to some parts sooner to others later but finally to wall the signal of arousing men to burst the chains and the wish the monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves and to assume the blessings of security of self government that for which we have substituted restores the free right to the unbounded exercise of freedom reason and freedom of opinion so said jefferson whatever his other failings jefferson understood and expressed better than any other of the founding generation the ideals that have set the united states apart and one for us a special destiny and in fact that unique drive to share the blessings of freedom pervaded even in those earliest years of the american diplomatic engagement with the middle east so even if you americans recall well learn little of our nation's involvement in the arab world before the twentieth century the fact is among our nation's very earliest foreign policy struggles and successes the middle east played a very prominent role and in seeking to protect american ships from piracy in the southern mediterranean from the very start american diplomat took it upon themselves to seek protection for religious minorities and this work continues to this very day it's probably true that our relations throughout the region would be considerably simplified if we chose to regard religious discrimination and repression in other countries as purely internal matters many other states have taken this approach but such an abdication of our most fundamental beliefs is not within the character of this country not now and not in the future but better or worse we are called to be witnesses it is not within our power or desire to shape the affairs of other states but we're not blind to the suffering and misfortune which is meted out daily throughout the world and particularly in the middle east on the basis of religion even among our close allies so as we are not blind or deaf we must not also be mute there are several reasons for this obligation first we must be true to our own values religious freedom is a core american value in remaining silent in the face of evil is to become complicit with that evil secondly as we maintain our belief in the right justice of our values we maintain hope that others will recognize and come to accept what we have always held to be self evident truths and finally both the victims and the perpetrators of religious bias discrimination and violence should know that we are watching and we are aware and we are concerned however certain the perpetrators of these acts may be of their authority they rarely like to have their deeds exposed power cannot dispel shame and we are not without misdeeds or selves our own history is sadly rife with long years of oppression and outbreaks of brutality but while our history may be flawed the ideals to which we are ever struggling to come closer are not the right to believe or not and to exercise that belief and worship but religious practice is not a different thing here in the united states than it is in the middle east or in any other place some of our allies will complain that behind the facade of religion life threats to the utmost urgency to their states and to the well being of their publics may be so but the obligation to distinguish between legal association and criticism and illegal conspiracy and treason lies with the state the responsibility to protect the weak and the helpless from the strong the powerful lies within the state the religious character of the nation and the secular aspect of a government must be maintained by the state we do not expect every or any nation to become cookie cutter copies of the united states but we do expect that states will adhere to their own a national and international commitments and treaty obligations jefferson concluded his letter with all eyes are opened or opening t rights of man the general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs they were favored few booted and spurred ready to ride them legitimately by the grace of god these are grounds of hope for others for ourselves let the annual return of this day forever refurbish our recollection of these rights and undiminished devotion to them  today we're here to discuss the state of political and religious freedom in the middle east which our witness is well aware with last month's release of this state department two thousand i report on international religious freedom i recently joined sarah my colleagues including chairman ackerman is sending a letter to the select members states of the united nations about the defamation of religions resolution it's annually considered by the un human rights council and un general assembly this resolution is inconsistent with the basic freedoms of access to the basic services and opportunities blowing their religious majority are afforded and they're saying from your testimony assistant secretary bronzer that the state department's calling ways increase our capacity to engage in religious the reg faith leaders as a way of blog boaster the rights and religious equality throughout the region however in a region extremely leery of western involvement how do we do this without while avoiding a political backlash from regional governments and islamists and hearing as we continue to assess the conditions both political democratic and religious conditions in the mideast which a region of which i believe there is hope  but we cannot avoid the hard questions and i look forward to hearing assistant secretary pozner on these issues i want to just highlight concerns in particular with  iran throughout two thousand and nine the government of iran has persistently violated the rights of its citizens the government of iran's most overt display of disregard for political rights happened in the presidential elections on june twelfth two thousand and nine and as i said on june nineteenth two thousand and nine we must condemn iran for the absence of fair and free presidential elections and urge around provided people with the opportunity to engage in democratic election process all of that contributes to the respect for individual rights and we have seen repression and murder arbitrary arrests of show trials of peaceful dissidents in the wake of elections was a sad reminder right now americans are being detained in iran which again emphasizes the lack of respect for human rights this whole issue of religion is also a question in spite of the iranians constitutional guarantee that non shiite muslims and other religious groups including zoroastrians christians and jews are protected the state department's annual report on  international religious freedom describes discrimination for those groups and the situation for religious minorities in iran as a teary ating i might be more forceful and say nonexistent national security in regional stability overriding concerns with regards to iran but the rights violations that the government of iran perpetrates against its citizens are similarly unacceptable i have constituents from iran families who have been separated from each other  allowed to reconcile or to engage because of the problems in iran and when we consider our relation with iran human rights including political religious freedoms must be a high priority just  well even as we've made progress in iraq i am concerned about the political and religious freedoms in iraq because the degree to which iraq protect those rights is a reflection on our own country and what we have been able to occur pledge there are groups for example that do not exist or do exist but do not have the protection in iraq this year three months after u s forces turned over control of camp ashraf iraqi security forces violated the human rights of the peoples  security forces i would only suggest that as we begin to highlight this question we have to stand as well for the respect of all faiths i conclude by saying just in the past week we were able to meet with the mayor of jerusalem who envisioned a jerusalem where people of all faiths can live and worship as they choose for those of us who have visited israel we can see where all religions converge i support that concept let us have all religions converging wherever they might find themselves and let us whole as sacred the rights of people to practice their faith a faith that is nonviolent their faith that promotes unity their faith that promotes love and all the religions that i've been able to study in the world follow in that tradition it is only when those traditions of violated when horrible horrific acts are are perpetrated under the name of religion i hope that we can support the religion that brings unity and reconciliation to start talking about a subject that's not even relevant to this hearing because of another committee if i do would you kindly get me are we never done that before never done that before ok i'm going to submit my statement for the record so we can get to the witness deal with religious freedom and understanding in the middle east and i was hoping we might be able to have a talk about those who have a markup today but since we have been able to would it be possible for us to maybe take a hard look at those down the road michael h posner we're delighted to have him here with us today so it's typos and may be new to the subcommittee but he has a long and distinguished history when it comes to promoting human rights prior to being confirmed assistant secretary in september of two thousand and nine mr posner was the executive director and then president of human rights first his tenure at human rights for the organization during during his tenure at human rights first the organization was at the very forefront of u s and international efforts to enhance refugee protections to demand accountability for crimes against humanity and to combat all forms of illicit discrimination secretary posner is probably best known for his efforts to reintegrate human rights principles into even the most sensitive parts of the american national security efforts mr secretary without  chairman ackerman and members of the subcommittee it's it's an honor to be here today to discuss this important issue i would like in addition to my written statement to ask that the  the international religious freedom reports introduction and executive summary be entered into the record the objection thank you mr chairman you mentioned the universal application of human rights standards and that's in fact one of the cornerstones of the obama administration's approach to these issues very much in the spirit of jefferson we believe that there are international and know that there are international standards that allow for free expression of religion and allow people to choose and practice their religion and that there be a tolerance of differences we also are very much committed to what we're calling principled engagement and president obama's important speech in cairo in june of this year set the tone for that and he spoke about the importance of religious tolerance and religious freedom he said people in every country should be free to choose and live their faith based on the persuasion of the mind and the heart and the soul this tolerance is essential for religion to thrive a third element of what we're trying to do is to support broader civil society and allow civil society society to flourish in countries around the world including  religious minorities and sadly in the middle east region as you indicated as all of you have indicated there are a range of very troubling problems i just want to highlight very quickly three countries and then we can open up to questions the first is iran congress woman jackson lee made reference to it it's one of two countries in the region that are designated countries a particular concern and has been for some time and  said there is a much broader pattern of disrespect for human rights in iran intensified after the election with crushing of demonstrations imprisonment o people detention and mistreatment but the respect for religious freedom in iran is also a very is also a serious problem the disrespect that it continues to deteriorate  tolerated we continue to receive reports of imprisonment harassment intimidation and discrimination based on religious beliefs one case in particular that i would mention is the case of seven behi leaders who were detained in of between march and may of two thousand and eight they were in charge for nine months and which point they were charged with security offenses including spying for israel in february of this year spokesman for the judiciary said that in addition to espionage they also are going to be charged with spreading corruption on earth which is a crime punishable by death the behind community in particular has really been  targeted in iran and i will point out just say finally with respect to iran that either today or tomorrow the u n general assembly is going to consider a resolution on human rights in iran which has more than it's ever had in the past a reference to and expression of concern about the denial of religious freedom to the behi to feel and others were very much supporting that and we are at this point cautiously hopeful that that resolution will be adopted is it has been in the last several years you might ask why do we spend the time and energy doing it we do it because it's a signal to democratic forces in iran that the world's watching and we know you know what's happening it's the same it's a piece of the second country that i'll mention very briefly is saudi arabia which is also a country of particular concern for what we call systematic ongoing agree just violations of religious freedom freedom of religion is not recognize protected and for non muslims there's not even the ability to practice their religion in public and even saudi shia face significant religious discrimination which i'd be glad to go into if people want to discuss further but it is the case that we continue to follow very closely a very very restrictive regime there and believe that much work needs to be done and members of congress have been helpful in that regard by constantly reminding us of the seriousness of the situation the third and last country i mentioned again very briefly is egypt it is a place where actually respect for religious freedom has declined in the last three years and in particular i want to raise our concerns about the governments in action or insufficient action in protecting the  population of egypt there are attacks against that population and the government continues to try to avoid and a legal accountability for the perpetrators of those attacks an example is the assault on the abu phantom monastery in two thousand and eight two coptic brothers were arrested in connection with that bombing they were held for fourteen months finally release but the their release was condition and an agreement by with the government to the monastery drop criminal charges against those who actually perpetrated the attack that lack of accountability we think actually perpetuates more violence and and attacks against against the coptic community last thing with respect to egypt is the unified law we're particularly concerned about the lack of attention to passing that law which would treat all religious groups equally with regard to requirements for obtaining building permits to construct to repair worship facilities and the effect of not having that law and having existing laws on the books is that religious groups including the coptic christian community are often precluded from building houses of worship or pairing them so these there's practical things we believe can and should be done in all these places and with that i want to stop and just take your questions thank you very much you very much mr secretary let me ask a general question how do we engage those countries in the region on this on this issue countries that are our friends or allies who are helpful to us we are congressman engaging with these countries on a range know range of ways we can treat all these countries in the same way by by nature of the relationship we don't have the relationship with the iranian government for example there's a long list of things i'd love to be able to push with the i wasn't exactly counting them as a friend yeah i know that's right but i think with the two other countries i mentioned i mentioned them particularly because they are countries that we have a close relationship with and i think we it's particularly levels at the thirty thousand feet level the the president's speech in june set a very positive tone it was a speech of engagement but at the same time a speech that recognize the importance of these issues we're now involved with egypt in a set of discussions a set of bilateral discussions that will include these issues and that's part of my job is to make sure that these issues keep getting raised i plan to visit egypt in the near future we have a dialogue scheduled for mid december with the gyptian it's critical that these issues beyond the agenda and that we keep raising them and keep again reaching out to the religious community in the case of egypt t community in the case of saudi arabia the shia community to make sure that we are highlighting the importance we play on these subjects we need to keep  it shouldn't be just me or the human rights bureau that's saying this needs to be done across the government and again frankly the interest that congress those reinforces that commitment and allows and i was to do this in the best way possible a lot of that does go on with respect to the legislative branch we have members besides all of our general and just who have specific and keen interest in specific minorities and many in all minorities and their ability to practice their their rights including freedom of religion high among them in these various places in the middle east the level of the administration  besides the necessary hand holding for lack of a better word with those communities that need the assurances and bolstering up that we in the world are watching is this brought up in any other way besides besides through your position you just mentioned it should be to others as well do we do we seek and i'm talking about with our friends now it's easy to beat up on our enemies because we don't have to be as sensitive sometimes at least we think that and the way we would be better or cudgelled them but is is there or should there be ality the things that they expect from us when we talk about those within the defense wing of our administration should they be bringing this up when we talk about trade issues should we be bringing that up when we talk about aid even humanitarian or other kinds of aid should we be bringing it up and then after you say yes to all of that i don't want to preempt you the real question is are we bringing it up and when was the last time we did again i think there is a larger question of the relationship between a whole range of human rights issues and conditionality of aid and it'll depend on each situation i think i would say both on a bilateral basis and a multilateral basis we can and should be doing  more we have for example again focusing on a few we have a very strong relationship with the government of egypt and there are there's a long list of things that i would like to see us and i will be raising with them but it has to be raised across as for specific but specifically it should be it must be it ought to be it needs to be my question is is it being has it been when when egypt comes to us and say and says they need legitimately will stipulate certain types of military equipment or defense things or saudi arabia need some information or pick your country does does and this is outside of your shop but you know it needs to be done because you brought it up and we know it has to be brought up because we bring it up on all levels that we engage at least most serious members of congress that that i know is it bring brought up is this an issue for the secretary of defense  or is his other issues too important to dull his other messages with with this goody goody stuff mr chairman this is this essentially  the centerpiece of what i am committed to do in this job i've been on the job to my and i'm convinced that if we don't have an integrated approach to human rights issues throughout different agencies we're not going to be effective on these things has it been done it's been done episodically in various ways in various places could it be done more yes should it be done more yes am i committed to trying to make that happen yes am i going to succeed i don't know  but i can say to you and i will make this commitment that in dealing with countries that are our closest allies we ought to be using every opportunity we can and across the government to make sure that the central issues which matter so much to us in our own society are registered as issues of concern it's precisely either the trade representative defense department that ought to be raising these live over extended my time and i hold my colleagues indicating that i will extend whatever time you need i never worry about you over extending your time mr chairman you're my buddy and you can have another five seconds if you like because they have buddies like i hear what you're saying and your your appreciation and effort on the issue is  duly noted historically through even the short tenure that you've had on your current job and we cannot hold you responsible for other agencies of the executive branch you have to know what they're doing  be responsible for them not doing it but it would would be inappropriate for you to send a memo to the secretary of this in that whatever that mrs to suggest to them that these issues are of great overriding national concern on humanitarian basis and is really what america's all about and asked them to bring it up because we do badges of time to time but i think somebody suasion it took me six seven months to get through the confirmation process and part of what i did was to reach out to other agencies in just the way you're describing to get a better sense of how i can communicate more regularly with both the economic and trade people as well as people in defense and justice etc so i very much take to heart what you've just said and it is something that i intend to keep doing if i can just say one thing on the multilateral side too if you just give me one second here we did we've done two things congressman green mention the defamation of religion resolution at the u n which we fought very hard against and i think there are opportunities in the context of the u n and other international organizations for us also to be raising these concerns and enlisting our allies european and other allies to join in that fight and it seems to me there is some combination of trying to figure affirmative ways to work with governments in this respect egypt on a resolution on freedom of expression that we co sponsored at the human rights council and got unanimous support for it gave us the ability to then go in and challenge the over reaching and totally unacceptable defamation of religion resolution which they and others have been driving egypt in pakistan drive that train those are both allies of the united states and i think we ought to be very mindful of the fact that our close allies should not be fighting with us about these very basic things that the i did nation so that's another piece of this which i'm very keen that we bring in the susan rice the shop is now engaged in those issues as to bremmer who is the system secretary for international organizations trying to broaden the discussion of this beyond this the particulars to also find a way for us to be pushing some of our allies to be stronger on some of these things thank you very much mr byrd mr chairman i believe the secretary just said that the interest that congress shows has an impact and i realize that the state department going to these other middle eastern countries and i presume that's what you'll be doing the secretary has a positive impact but a resolution or resolutions passed by the congress talking about religious freedom and understanding i think would be a real asset to our state department people to go over there and therefore i'd like to ask you one more time mr chairman to take a hard look at the bills that are co sponsored on a bipartisan basis regarding religious freedom that have been introduced and  that i think would augment what the state department is trying to do and this is not a partisan issue it's a bipartisan issue now i'd like to talk and i'd also like to thank the chairman of the full committee for moving the iran sanctions bill out of our committee and an october and i hope that we can get the other relevant committees to sign off on that so we can get that bill to the floor as quickly as possible and with your tremendous influence i know you can help us get that done so you're from new york you can get all kinds of things done you even get the yankees to win the world series but no help he was of no help to the mets well that's true too i do want to talk about one serious thing and that is the saudi arabians the president when he was over there he bowed to the saudi king he showed the difference many of us were concerned about that but nevertheless i think he was showing his his way of showing i guess respect to the  saudi king but i went over to saudi arabia with the codell a congressional delegation a few years ago and i think you're probably aware that mr ambassador and the reason i went over there is we had a number of women who had married saudi young men when they were in college or they met him someplace and they went over there full of love and understanding and they end up with their children sleeping on the kitchen floor and living a life that was hellacious to say the least we her children to the front of the embassy gates and return her to her husband and lord only knows what happened to that woman i had other women come up to me that were american saying do anything you can to to get us out of here and they told me about their husbands threatening to carve them up with knives and kill them and women are treated without almost any respect and so we're talking today about religious freedom but also human rights i think the since the saudis do so much business with us in the area of oil  and other trade i think it's important that we continue to pressure them to show human rights and freedom to american citizens needs are not people that aren't citizens american citizens that are being held against their will over their women and their children and many of their children are being forced into marriage when they're twelve years old and they're completely brainwashed i had a woman call me just the other day who had been over there i met with her when i was in saudi arabia she went over to try to help get her daughter out and the really just police came in and because her head was not properly covered and i was talking to her they were going to arrest her or whip her across the ankles or something and when they found out i was a congressman they didn't mind going to jail they rescinded their their position so i think it's important since you're going to be over there and you'll be working with our ambassador that we continue to press them for more equal and free rights for women over there and the children and the stories i had had i had women come to meet with me who said if their husband knew that they were talking to us they would kill him and  they could probably get away with it because of the sheer share a lot of the law that they have i don't know we can pronounce that right shari'a law and so we as a free country that has trade and diplomatic relations with saudi arabia need to do everything we can to help those american citizens women and children have their rights respected and i and i know this is a tough issue but we need to have continual pressure and i hope when you meet with our ambassador over there you convey my concern and other members of concern that have concerns here in the congress united states with that mr chairman i don't think i have any questions of the secretary i think he's he's been there two months i wish him well and if we could do anything to work with you to help solve these religious freedom issues as well as the human rights issues over there you can give us a call we'd love to work with you thank you very much did you want to respond  there's no question asked but i would only say on the cases that you raised it is in fact much easier for us to intervene when u s citizens are involved so those are cases like that come to your attention now you would really be helpful for me if you would send them my way so that i'm aware i'm sure the embassy gets them but it would also be helpful if they come to your attention that i see them thank you and i will convey your concerns and i agree with them thanks very much mr cost thank you very much mr chairman mr posner i realize you've been on the job for a couple months but i like to get a better idea of how your democracy and human rights and labor is set up how you're going to make changes if any in terms of your operation and how you're going to work in conjunction with obviously the secretary of state and the president as you pursue efforts freedoms as we know them to be which clearly is different than the part of the world that we're talking about i e the middle east first of all tell me what are the tools or the leverage that your bureau has  to deal to provide pressure or leverage how would you best describe them quickly really three things one we are involved in the policy making process i think we need to be more involved in that  in within the state department and within the government part of our action however you're going to get more involved in that policy process to number two we're involved in reporting we do the annual country reports on human rights and on religious freedom etc but we lay the factual predicate for the government to act and that's really those reports have taken on a life of their own and we need to do those we need to disseminate them more aggressively and make  making program side we have about eighty million dollars that's available for small grants to promote human rights and democracy so we're able to get in and provide direct deal with countries directly that you're involved with and we g enerally make grants to groups like national democratic institute of freedom house or the international publican institute and they make grants in conducting organizations like the national conference of state legislators and others were emerging democracies are taking place i know we participated in that correct and so then when you report the second tool that you have issued these reports then the next report that will be coming out on the middle east countries that are allies and countries that are folks countries like jordan and egypt as you noted and iraq that obviously we've been heavily involved when we will have a report on the level of not only human rights issues and potential violations but religious freedoms and the how do you how do you give criteria's upgrades and try mean been for mayor of the religious minorities for example the exist in iraq and some of the troubles are having and some of the assassinations are taking place you're going to rate those two reports that you reference are bit different and one of things we're trying to do is reconcile everything the report on religious freedom that just came out last month is a predicate for the secretary for the state department making designations of countries of particular concern and that's done  and so there are seven or eight countries that fall into that category including in this region saudi arabia and iran and that process is ongoing right now and they're likely to be decisions made in the next few months on that so you're going to stop some new milestones that this committee subcommittee and others will be aware of as to when the new published reports will come out their reports are already out those designations will happen in the next few months ok human rights the broader human rights report is just  factual summary my final question before my time runs out as many of us have been concerned about as it relates to religious freedoms and human rights the sort of curriculum that we see taking place whether it's side of hamas and palestine or whether it's an exclusive saudi arabia there have been commitments by governments those that are friends of ours that they are going to make changes in those curriculums that  leadership of those governments have fallen short from what has taken place or are changed and the actual schools themself i e the curriculum are you going to be involved in this are you going to do something about this  and in fact this subcommittee and members of congress have for several years raised and we've taken on board a and i'm going review process in particular of the saudi textbooks and they're my predecessor and i give them much credit for this have had entered into an ongoing dialogue with the saudis about about this particular subject and some progress has been made but i am very mindful of this and i think we need to be constantly vigilant both in terms of the content and dissemination of these materials it's clearly an important issue well as the chairman is fond of  home in new york and the great city that provides broadway i'm very fond of that great musical from south pacific that the song but that talks about you have to teach to hate and i think the teaching of what do you think the best means of doing that how do we most effectively export the principles of political religious freedom you know i guess what i would say is going back to the chairman and opening comments i think the the way in which we do this is as important as the content and one of the things that we have going for us is that we're not talking just about exporting a kind of american approach we're talking about what really are universal legal standards legal norms that have been developed over the last sixty years to which a great majority of countries in the world at least profess on paper to believe all right so we're not coming in to simply say here's the model the american model do it we're saying hey look at the world this is the new paradigm post world war two the universal declaration of human rights and a range of treaties have set forth some basic premises it's a floor not a ceiling every government ought to be doing this you ought to be doing it just like your neighbors doing it or just like the country down the street i think that's when we talk about principled engagement that's what we're talking about we ought to be one voice a loud voice but a loud voice that's part of a course that's basically saying if you want to be recognized in the world if you want to trade if you want to compete if you want to live in harmony this is what the world is now expecting and i think it's a long process i don't promise that overnight that's going to work but our approach is very much to say let's try to build some momentum by getting multiple voices and being part of that process to really pushing for these things based on universal standards sometimes involve support of organizations in countries that are doing these things or that subscribe to those views and how do we support those effectively without tainting them with the american influence it causes them to be suspect and in that country i think there's a deli it's a good question and i think there's sort of a delicate balance between as you say being supportive without tainting people but i think there's at least three things we can do one is we can be very vigilant when the defenders of freedom or you know religious community get in trouble we can be a lifeline of protection we it always is valuable for us to speak out and the examples that come across my desk all the time of people jewel's on whose behalf we've registered our concerns and governments take notice of that so that's point one the second thing is that i think we can help amplify their voices i said earlier that i believe strongly that change occurs from within societies it's very hard to force it from outside but there is now a very active debate about human rights and a deep desire within every society in the world to begin to take greater responsibility for promoting a more open and democratic way of doing things we ought to be identifying those people and helping them to amplify the voices we have a new set of communication tools with the internet we ought to be doing everything in our power to make sure that that those messages get heard and then the third thing and again this is an account tree or case by case basis there are moments where we can provide direct financial and material technical support and where people desire we ought to be thinking creatively about how do we push the edge of what's possible to promote free media to promote civil society human rights and other organizations and actually give them support to do the work some of us have been concerned the administration may be backing away from those folks in iran who would be promoting amount of energy that the u s government has devoted to getting a favorable results on a very strong resolution at the u n general assembly that's going to be voted on today or tomorrow on iran is a testament to the fact that people are really paying attention to this it is really important that we be out there publicly important to the people of iran that they know that we're out there publicly this resolution at the general assembly which i am cautiously optimistic is going to pass sends a very strong signal and we are very much in the lead in trying to make sure that that resolution gets a favorable outcome we have to keep pushing on these things we have concerns about nuclear program and whatever else but these issues are absolutely essential and especially in the aftermath of the violent attacks on civil society after the elections we have to re and i'm talking specifically about palestinian christians a group that has been under a lot of pressure for a long period of time very often ignored by the rest of the and even the human rights and freedom of religion advocates from all over including our own country it seems if you look at the statistics and the numbers  the palestinian christian community is being diminished in the land of christianity in the birthplace of christianity almost like no other group and no other group of numbers have been ravaged and in a long period of time i know that you know as the holiday season approaches and christmas new years  it becomes a great place for christians to visit as well as others but a difficult place for christians to live it would be almost sinful if i could use that word in the political context for the birthplace of christianity to be devoid of christians which is basically what's happening  almost every palestinian christian that i know if they could would get a passport or is trying to get a passport if not for themselves for their children and their families to be able to get out and that's evidenced all over the world anywhere they could go to and in the free world very few people have them to begin with what do we do about that besides using them as a great photo opportunity on december twenty fifth that it is as you say a problem and a growing problem the numbers have diminished i have met with representatives of that again in my previous life i visited nazareth and i visited bethlehem i've talked to leaders of those communities and they are shrinking communities as you say there's just no doubt about that i think this is part of a broader discussion about what we can and should be doing with the government of israel as a friend but as a as a friend that's willing to talk directly about issues that really are essentially confidence building measures these are issues that we haven't gotten the attention i agree with you they're saying it's an israeli problem not a muslim problem well i think it's both i think there are elements of it that are there certainly i've spoken to any number of and when they speak a great deal of confidence any of them who could have an opportunity to live in israel within the forty eight borders or the sixty seven borders or any other borders would seize the opportunity and certainly the income level opportunity level of of palestinian christians within israel is so much higher not just in dollars but by multiples and factors than they are in any place that they're living right now they have within within the cities and towns that you have just cited as well as within the entire rest of the arab world all of what you just say is right and there are obviously huge tensions in or ethnic or religious tensions within the palestinian community that's a piece of it we have to be attentive to and it's also there's also a piece of it that i think the government of israel bears responsibility for and on both sides i think it's part of a broader peace you're talking about the general economy in the region and you know provisions that discriminate on the basis of prior military service and the like i mean there are the income levels and not sure what you're talking about well israel has universal military service for all of its citizens but not not traditionally yeah traditionally they don't and so what i do this is an opportunity there's so many places it's so easy to see what i don't think the problem of the christian community is that they thirst to serve in the israeli military and they're not able to that's not what i'm talking about if you think that's the benefit that i'm talking about and we're talking different language you know i what i'm saying is that there are certain social social services and social benefits that are tied to military service if you look at the  i'm talking about the huge populations within the christian palestinian community and as i understand you know we're not talking about israeli communities in territories we're talking about palestinian controlled territories although under israeli administration this is not in israel proper but there are two we're having two different discussions here one we had about the situation of palestinians that are living within the green line within israel and i'm talking about christians that's right palestinian christians living within israel is one subject and then the second subject which which communities you're talking about i'm talking about the first and i with respect to the palestinians know what which neighborhoods with respect to palestinians let me take let me start where you are talking about bethlehem  problems or with with i agree with the exercise of their religious freedom those for the most part are within the communities bethlehem nazareth those are the box of them bows where the populations of been depleted what we agree that there needs to be more attention to this will come also solving the israeli palestinian arab jewish and whatever you want to problem i'm talking about  talking about the specific problems that religious problems that the christians are facing and we are we are in the middle of a discussion a range of discussions with the palestinian authority and the palestinian authority ought to be pushed as hard as possible to do what they can given their authority over the population there i totally agree with that ok i think that's part of the problem why this problem hasn't been addressed it's being looked at as part of the israel palestinian conflict and what i'm talking about is something i'm talking about the free exercise of the christian religion within christian towns and villages which are not you know i'm not talking about the overall construct but i'm talking about who is putting downward pressure on their lives as a specific community and we could argue israel's role and in the west bank or any place else don't talk about christian holy sites you know most of that is not a conflict with israel at all you guys are with the christian christian community is not living under israel's rules they're living under palestinian authority rules and regulations and the ability to exercise control over their own religious sites i mean most don't control their own religious sites that's not israel that's the palestinian authority and we should be raising that and we should before that community disappears that's that's a great  secretary you've been very kind and appreciate the fact that you and we had to wait while another subcommittee was was using the room getting us well too late but you've answered all of our questions and and concerns and have been a great help to