good evening everyone welcome to the board of selectmen its meaning for tuesday september twenty third on going to read the agenda seven p m citizens input topics not reasonably anticipated by the chair forty eight hours in advance of the meeting seven o five m select means update seven ten p m board of selectmen will discuss the draft warrant articles at seven forty p m sharon watson and chris gallagher will discuss the release of subdivision funding at seven fifty the board will discuss the town council are if p edits at eight borders board will discuss the final revised open meeting or complaint procedure and vote on that at eight o five day feldman will be a town of a working group update and then an eight fifteen bill keegan will provide us with the town manager update so i can be the pl seven o'clock any citizens i and attended and they really provided a meaningful tribute to those service people who were remembered at the ceremony so thank you again mike and bob i also want to remind everybody check out tomorrow night eight p m on c b s survivor watched valerie are one of our local police officers valerie collins and her husband jeremy as they star on that show so it's very exciting re was legislation passed that would allow liquor stores to open at ten a m on sundays and so under this law these licenses are in title as a matter of right to open at ten and as such do not need the approval of the local licensing authorities licensees must notify the local licensing authority about the changes change of hours so we have an application for a change of hours october and october twenty third i believe we can all see that all those in favor and i think the next one is the public event application for the hellene parade be held on october twenty fifth from two to four p m this is produced by the department of recreation knows the recreation director and the holiday halloween curried is  gather around town hall could be five trucks kids dressed up in costumes should be very very been very successful in past years and should be successful again so i move that the bus like me to prove the application for that's all the action items presentations but it doesn't say what warrant article they're pretty they're presenting it it's it's very difficult to follow from the hall which was on the was he who she is an article that of the building height which may be fine but that's not one of the withdrawn i'm sorry i'm going to prague but i thought that was there and there were three planning board articles from the last time my chair same three are here i think that's a good idea though jim just keep running tally so that we can keep track of what's on first ok at the overlay district yeah was the overt works building which is an article and then the camp lincoln hill to sell the property rights on the remaining nine that was printed his excess are a apartment overlay district auctioning off dexter road removing the auditorium restrictions the liquor licenses signed by a lot constables but there's nothing about building  yes and i'm just that's my point here what if they're not necessary so they i guess we're going to vote them off tonight but the ones that you want on here we're not on the list and i'm not saying it's your fault you probably submitted it to the selectmen maybe i don't know but it's not on here so no point of order maybe we should reopen the warrant to vote it before she makes that presentation or we're listening to something that we did not has approved yet to do that any discussion of those in favor ok so right now there's twelve current open articles so we have removed the dexter street art well it's no longer in this packet and the oak street article has been remove a rain or it was the asset review committee so when we voted it was on and now we're sitting here and it's off who is putting it on and off and i'm not picking on the old stove but i think that that has manifested itself in a lot of confusion and not having a master list of where all of this is going and who's putting them on and off there's no author there's no title there's no set a date i thought we were going to determine which ones are coming off tonight but she's saying they're off now ok and we have never had a discussion of list from last week this is a list the list that was given up had nine items and then with it two more in here and that i hand written right at the last meeting correctly so that's why i'm saying it was eleven it didn't include the one that we're voting on tonight so now there's twelve correct and as the last meeting there was twelve right so it is twelve told right out right so i guess that the actually have to take now is this do you want to include in based upon what people have submitted to us for information we have prepared a draft war with us it with all those of mation that we have to sit to submit for now if we want we can always add in and add these things back in but based upon what we have right now discuss that issue and the feedback i've already talked with bill and we got the feedback we said it was going to be a decision of the khan come as whether or not that would be an article to be proffered and they decided no so it's not on the list so certainly to discuss it tonight that that's what  happened ok i guess what and i'm picking on that one article but you put it on with discussions from the time manager and now you took it off the discussions and none of us have been involved in that and so it shouldn't be a board of selectmen article if that's the if that's the process and i'm smiling i'm saying this guy you know that this is just it's very difficult to follow who brings in there's nothing to say who's article is right so i think we did ask really on who would who would be the sponsor  it but we never got to that point because the follow up meeting was held out monday night my last monday night where the board i was even at the meeting but the board the conservation commission and the recreation commission apparently my joy only with them and decided that they did not think it was an eye good idea to bring them forward so that information was going to be brought up as part of the number ten discussion tonight so my recommendation that you don't include at this point so say you we're go proved them with no public input whatsoever he'll kill nothing was advertised other than when we got here it was written and it's not fair to the people that are out there that wanted the opportunity to participate they didn't get that opportunity to participate and it's we only do it twice a year and if we're doing a place here and this was some pretty heavy articles coming up the signed by law the time eating by law you know we're trying to struggle with twelve items in six weeks time with no schedule and no follow through and when things are going to get done there's a concern for me you know if we actually went the list that we prepared for you last week was a list of those items that people had identified as possible last week i would come back to you with the detail on those items at the fact the next meeting with what the actual language for the for the articles which we have tonight and then and then response in further detail on the one on the other remaining  be bringing forward two because the things that happened between now and the last meeting to to to present to you so you won't be able to so our condition will be to not include them so we can change the process any way you like i mean it just that article went through a miserable death last time and rightfully so we spent money on attorney to tell us you know it's very unattainable and went to the conservation commission the conservation the board of open  park and open space committee that we appointed and the conservation rack in the open space had been working on that property for over a year with the scouts coming up with the plan and also and people finding out that the selectmen want to sell it in context to a lot of other stuff that are going on it was a lot of needless aggravation from neighbors and people and it was sponsored by the by the selectmen it was sponsored by one individual put that person's name on it if it was upon said by the asset review committee then they should sponsor it but how does the selectmen having gone through this a year ago do this again right now without any discussion so it gets on their game this when they become like this would've come on if we hadn't had a conversation with the chairman of the conservation commission who was willing to discuss this with his committee right so that's how i did how the only thing that brought this on here this was not forced on anyone and that was the case it should have been a bo discussion to go forward rather than an individual because i disagree and i would have liked the opportunity to have some insight in some you know this this did show off until we sat down at the table last time i think if it made it to the warrant jim then you would have had the opportunity to express your disagreement with not as a board of selectmen particle why not then if it was going to be a board of selectmen article then the board of selectmen brings a forward not an individual you know if it was a vote and it was a four to one and i lost i wouldn't be having this issue but but to get something that's that important at our meeting not in our package to be surprised at the meeting not having the ability to go back in time to see what happened over the year to have a go to all these board meetings and come back with almost zero discussion which is fine but i don't want my name attached to that as a selectman circe on the conservation commission should have been the sponsor know if the town if the selectmen wants to sell the property then it needs to be the selectmen if the conservation says i've got all this land i think of you know maybe self three for me as it gives me money to to do something in the back and it works great sense we went to them lorraine went to them and with this idea that the thing blew up and it came back to us in the way you know i'm saying to myself how does a selectman bring something to this forward to sell land with no discussion nothing in the packet not an opportunity to get any type of education of what happened over the last year david was in here i'm not sure if you were here but it would have been nice to say we're going to look at selling it we tried it last year these are the pitfalls these are the state issues these are the vernal pool issues this is what we heard but there was none of that dialogue and it was just a lot of needless anxiety for three other boards who've been working on their property to be blindsided by it and we're sitting here saying well it's you know we'll just take it off the list that you know i'm not coming down on you but lorraine i'm saying this discussion at this table is lacking right now  that that item along with the ire of p s u that's coming up if these things can happen at the table i think we'll all be better off and we wouldn't be melting i think what i mean my point was jim is that bill and i had a discussion with the chairman  reason i have this is gushing because i'm getting an entirely different story from many angry board members that are on those boards saying how did this happen so if so if it's a good idea to bring it so that i can imagine well i actually did and they say it wasn't that we were standing falling on so to say we got to do this for us or that if there if we did do it what would be the what would be the bill willingness to do it it was was there something that they wanted in exchange for that and that's how the conversation went and bob had a couple thoughts about how that might happen and he said but let me bring it back to my boy so well just so you know that this you know the the war is going to be open tuesday night so we need you know we do want to try and you know have a placeholder for this in case you do agree that's the right thing to do and i say that that process is great but what point did the board have the opportunity to have all that information before we voted for him ok this is not a villain in lorain article this that that should have had some insight into that because it was a lot of you know he gellman had written a letter that would have been nice for us to discuss before we went to the conservation commission the meeting minutes it would have been nice to go back and say boy you know and i i think from what i'm hearing from the conservation they all kind of looked and said what's changed in the last year why we've been doing this so i think it would have been saved a lot of aggravation if we had that discussion and did you did you go to the meeting the conservation meeting too because we had known that we would come to explain it so that's a week or two days earlier i'm sure they're sitting at home saying boy it would have been nice if we were notified to do yes and we would have come to this so i don't listen i think the at the end of the day i get i what the you know the elites names to it or something you know but it is just such a i mean this is what we're working from and if it's confusing at this table and people are speaking that's not on it just imagine the frustration at home trying to figure out   article six was the zoning by law the leading the the other one the we did not to do the petition for the the option of the three because of the text the roadway is we have a presentation on the accessory apartment in the overly districts a solution for patriot place and our brigade splitsville to the community part of that mitigation was to provide fundy to add personnel to the police department i was meeting with our finance director earlier last week and we were discussing what the real need is in terms of a timeline for hiring an individual and in consultation with randy i came up with a figure that we would be needed for the balance of this fiscal year and that is the money that would be transferred from a cow held by the town into the police budget so we can have some both but all that personnel right now we do have one recruit officer that was part of the regular budget that's in the training academy he's in about his  weeks that that person might be on our payroll cost of the police officer and as we all know you know the retiree health benefits is a is a real cost that's accrued in each year it's just that we're here we're catching up on paying for it so we're we're paying for is an h retiree health benefits pension side it's an assessment i know for county the pension system they assessed the town and all the other member towns in norfolk county pension system but it's a it's a real assessment its annual and right now it's proximity twenty percent salary from day one it's pays you go we have an annual assessment but it's an assessment based on your salary that you're paying out and it's a it's a real number and it's twenty percent of what you bring in salary is the best things go to pay for for a police officer it's the same as it's the same as a state pension system it's one just happens to be managed by not for for any other questions so just just in general so if you add up all the salary expense you time insurance you know pap seventy three or seventy four that number each year is going to fluctuate  down may be right and this is given that this is the first year of implementation for hiring this additional officer this will be this is partial funding in our fiscal year which is already been you know paid to us under the agreement but the annual funding was estimated at a higher number one hundred twenty seven thousand and change and yes i based the actuals that we incur once we once the chief hires a center vidual you know that will be the amount that will be it's i mean in essence it's a local receipt that's what this mitigation money is just like via some other mitigation money receives it's a local receipt comes into the general treasury and that means you can appropriate it you know at a town meeting so that the for the next item and next person we have sharon sharon you want to come forward and talk about article six seven and eight just in a quick update on the sign bylaw thank you article six i believe amends the definition of accessory apartment and i did dress as a number of issues that of the planning board has had over the past two years people applied to build accessory apartments and buildings that don't exist and the previous definition only reference the special permit accessory apartments appear in an ar fifteen district you you need a building permit from mr kasparov so we wanted to correct the definition and make it clear that it has to be a house which exists and i has to be in a single family detached house not a single family at attached house so those are the reasons that that article is being written and corrected any questions on that how does somebody apply for an accessory apartment for a building that doesn't exist so the buildings the whole point yes but they actually apply for that or is that they did they did but physically had so they would build an accessory apartment new well it's about a duplex i don't know could be it could be so the whole question was that the practice and the way mr casper always interpreted the bylaw was it had to be an existing home but we never explicitly  it must be part of the same house and maintain the single family appearance article last year i neglected to add the foxborough center overlay district map to section two point two of the zoning bylaw this listed as a zoning district in the town and further the map that was submitted as part of the warrant didn't make it into the warrant so where attaching it again to the zoning bylaws the map is unchanged from may twenty third two thousand and thirteen eight article it changes the definition of the height the building we present really measure depending on whether what we would call in  popular world daylight basement counts as a full story whereas a cellar with only the little basement windows doesn't count as a pool story so based on whether your basement is a story of your home or not the high how the height of your home was measured from the lowest floor to a point halfway between the eaves and the top of the roof it's very contrary to the way the state building code defines it and we chose to amend it so it complies with the state building code measuring it from the acme md grade along the foundation to the highest point of the building excluding chimneys and pear pits and you know t v antennas and whatever else you have up there and then from the definition of story we deleted the words including when you say the immediate the ground immediate jason to the building to get the average right we worked on projects where you take two and do the average you do every three feet to roid rise in los as at a discussion point with the planning board because very you could get you can have radically different numbers and we've discussed whether or not we should have diagrams in the zoning by a law that would make it very clear that you take that mean between the high point of the foundation and the low point but mr caspian are feels that this language the words mean grade of the ground immediately adjacent to the building he can interpret that and he's comfortable with  it thanks to him more complicated by a lawyer more complicated right when you see that graphic says because there's been a dispute and someone right they found a loophole so i say well we're going to do it every five feet you know when is a basement a basement and a story and not a story and when does it count and when does it not count i think this is a lot clearer than the current system so i just like you so if you're taking if you look at the side of the house and you have the front then and previously under the current definition if you walked out you would have to count the entire basement that eight feet or so towards the high but then the top was measured as half way on the point so it's kind of crazy where it where do you start where do you end you know which which wolf line is controlling so this makes it very clear in my mind thank you appeals and we very quickly determined that the problem wasn't as simple as deciding whether or not to have electronic billboards and adding that to the signed code but  signed code which had been moved intact in one nine hundred ninety five from the zoning by law to the general bylaws needed substantial updating and cleary cleaning up as well and mr scot slaughtering randy over it from the board of appeals bill greater from the planning board and bill casper on myself where the committee you were gracious enough to give us a maximum of twenty thousand dollars from the economic development  we hired a consultant and held multiple multiple multiple meetings developed a draft went to the advisory committee and got a lot of really great feedback there one concern was they did personally did not like electronic billboards we felt the time between the ad com meeting and the town meeting we would not be able to do to sufficient public outreach to see if they were in the minority or they were in the majority of folks in town so our decision was to withdraw the electronic billboard portion of the article keep working on the electronic billboard portion and submit the remainder for the warrant and that's what all twenty five lovely pages is before you this evening and then we met last night again to look at the final revisions made meetings we had a number of citizens as well it was very nice to get the amount of been put that we did from folks across the county and i think it's a much better document that we heard from so many different people bill spare us has said that he can definitely interpret this more effectively than i like way more effectively than the current bylaws so it's a great improvement that we have got just so that everybody knows last night our focus of the discussion was on free standing sign definition so you know if you happen to be reading through this that's really what the last significant change was around copy of the letter that you have so this can be shared with the special counsel yes i think that would be great i am sure that that would be helpful and they have offered to work to assist in that withdrew and the reason we would do it is we had three bids on a design that was done by it outside architect for a modular public works building and they came in over budget was bound and determined to stick within the budget so following that annual town meeting sometime after i got together the three companies that had submitted successful beds and basically unsuccessful bid and basically said ok what can we do to make this affordable and they pointed out a lot of things about the design that have been done that that could be changed and saved quite a bit of  money so i went ahead and put this article in the warrant because i believe right now we can do it well within the budget as you know the money already exists in the enterprise account and it's set aside for building permits what this article does is it provides a means for the town to reimburse the enterprise for the town's share in the building based on the salaries of the people who will be working  approach yes the building that we advertised back a year or so ago was it had a crawl space under it and i large footprint because it was all on one floor that floor included non personal space storage i t room a few quite a few other storage spaces and during the course of testing the soil out there for the building to see how deep we could go we we dug a deep test pit and the wet season of the spring of two thousand and thirteen and the water table there is nine and a half feet below the surface so it lends itself to a so we want to have and reduce the footprint and moved all of the non personnel spaces to the basement and basically put the useful spaces on the floor and it reduced the footprint b more than a third from what the building was that we have or ties and that reduction of the footprint is it is a direct benefit to the to the price we think this thing can be built pretty done i'm going out with that in about a week and i expect to have bits and well before town meetings i'm only going to give them three weeks the better it's a pretty simple bit of we we really explored modulars a year ago i ask a question about the general fund contribution so this is two hundred thirteen thousand dollars over five years will find you pick a five year you're sure this is actually a successful funding pretty elegant strategy to invite some funding in from the water enterprise account to pay three hundred thousand dollars towards that property in the interest of water protection so that the funding from the water enterprise came in over over five years on a similar declining schedule as is laid out here and that money was contribute to the debt service so the approach that we've taken here to determine what the general funds share of the cost is roger said based on taking all the salaries by water sewer the highway highway being the only general fund salaries coming up with a percentage of that represents is about thirty five and a half percent and that's how we came to the tune thirteen thousand and then i came used a similar methodology to have the general fund paid back the water enterprise over a same five year schedule  and what makes that easier is two things one as roger has already stated how the water enterprise already has sufficient funds appropriated from prior town meetings  go towards a project like this you know under building improvements so they can actually pay for it you know for a lot out of the gate and then the general fund charges back the enterprise accounts annually the water enterprise and sewer enterprise as is required for two enterprises accounts to charge on the overhead charges that are incurred in other departments and you know that number for the water enterprises north of a half million dollars so it's it would be a credit over five years as indicated in the schedule on the warrant article declining basis you're making it easier on the general fund you know big big number for this year sixty four thousand and fifty five and the climbing down of the final number near five and the good news as well is that as we were  this project would come forward again we put forward a revenue budget that already incorporated this year's share so it's there's nothing on it dissipated here is that salaries model coming pretty close to expect water sewer and some of the administrative salaries are funded from different accounts a certain amount like my salary is funded from all three all three  the town engineers our it would be funded from all three the g i s person salary would be find it from all three the two clerks and highway are funded highway entry and park that the the three clerks and has was to look for at the various options available for addressing current space and building conditions of the possible town hall over the course of the past five months the working group has concluded that the best option is to build a new building and demolished existing structure the primary goal for the dressing of course of action includes building on the existing town hall site in hopes that the existing to hop's to remain open during the construction phase working group remains committed to exploring all available options to make the school a reality by hiring an architect and manager for the building as opposed to building no however if you consider all the positive and negative aspects of building new versus renovations what existing structure the vast majority of the members have it have indicated that the building you will be the most pretty predictable efficient and best use of taxpayers dollars is some measure of truly peace of all the hard work and dedication of the members of the group demonstrated throughout the process and therefore across the board support including this article in the special tommy war i just want to add that right now we're in the we will have those numbers before two to present to tommy so we'll just have the numbers are so we're going to present this information to the at the at com as well so that they're aware that we're still waiting on information we should have the information by the third were there at the time we have a look at what's at congo to chew on well if they want when they are we don't know and they won't know until we do have information i think it's important for the ad cop to understand as to how we got to this point same thing for the actual construction cost of the what was actually have those numbers available for a special town meeting hope by september of next year so it's a pla point for the the board to know that the world was a direction was want to to build a new project we didn't write dismissed the renovation option until we were comparable that that was not an option we want to pursue we want to make sure we looked at a lot of different aspects requesting additional liquor licenses to be used by the town and you know i bring this forward for discussion really as a starting point we are at a point now where we have sewer and we have the fire station and the keating properties as being in a good position now to start that process of teaching them up for sale along with a couple of other properties  so based on the feedback from the last meeting you know concern about how are we going to figure out how many to apply for what i did was i've requested and we've posted a meeting for this thursday night with the planning board so that we can get input from the planning board in terms of a master plan thoughts any other thoughts that they have in terms of the ability to use liquor licenses in certain areas for restaurants related to you know continue development in the town so my thought was after the meeting on thursday then i can come back with some additional information any suggestions from them and then we can have a more full discussion on the topic at our next meeting and then you know the board can determine what numbers they want if they want this or not certain areas that we license as i am in full agreement i'm saying when when we're looking for that special number was a ten twenty five or not at all the establishments that are here that have been here for a very long time will be affected because you can have a restaurant building d area of attraction for him anyway so there's this begets business you see how it works so it also provides choice to people not everybody you know there's some people have this certain favorite restaurants that they go out of town  is the excessiveness of the liquor licenses that we already have in the community and that in this discussion i haven't heard once the correlation of the increase in safety issues i e more russian roulette to play on the roads while i have a daughter just ready to start driving and an aging community whose driving may not improve  or may improve but it will certainly be affected by other aspects of more pouring like liquor licenses here in town so i just ask respectfully the board of selectmen to to keep in mind that the responsibility for these licenses and the safety of our community is on how many of these if any we request because i don't believe we need to have an inventory on them and i don't believe that liquor licenses are the only method that this town has to generate income in fact i think it's a very narrow way to look at how we can generate income when we have such a breadth of different talent on the board to entice business to our community so i say thank you very much and i'll step down thank you here he lives here in town and he was pleased to be able to have a shorter commute as well as to give back to his hometown and we've been very fortunate we've worked closely with them on the planning board on a number of projects so we're here today last may at the annual town meeting the town adopted a portion of the subdivision control law which the faulted subdivision bonds the planning board has called n approved it so we're here tonight for the first request to expand defaulted subdivision monies which are already an agency counts of the town to complete the required improvements that they were pledged for and chris will go into a lot more into the specifics if you have questions granite carving that's been damaged over the years will need to be hauled out resat sidewalks need to be done on one side of the street and then all the street trees also the need to be planted down there as well on top of that will also have an engineering complete command  set all the bounds that are required by planning board that have been approved and are on the plan and then do a final as built and straight accept its plans so that you know roughly sixty five thousand dollars to to complete subdivision and really all you have to do there's cracks in the existing asphalt and paved the top course of asphalt and then there's some minor work to be done the guardrail at the end of the street needs to be repaired and the that chris was planning to make use of search the southeast regional services group services group yeah so that that group does a lot of the bidding for our construction services so our paving sidewalk installation a lot of that work on the town doesn't build on our own we do it as part of a regional group we get better rates by doing that and i've already been in touch with the contractors giving them a heads up that we want to get this work done before the the end of the see construction season you know that the more we can do now get it wrapped up the better off we are come springtime when we'll play more bring these brings the streets to be accepted   but we felt the most critical was get the roads in good shape so they were safe for traffic there were only base coats there one of them was literally falling apart so they require a lot of attention sooner rather than later but but if there is one spent money it is to be returned with any crude interest to the person who posted the bond ok doesn't flow into a general fund new but we're working with what some constraints on the budget so in effect these are contractors that we did subdivision they posted a bond you were to finish the work and they just never finished it  estates over off of chestnut sullivan way now and so chris and gabby are working on that project as well but these are the first two we're asking for your permission to get the work done in this is just to bring it up to  the end is in sight thank you and the other question right so can i have a motion to prove this any discussion and just so in the future you leaving ten thousand dollars on the table because it's not done you need to do they need to come back to here will need to come back to you but that's not a small enough that you you have no discretion over even that small amount not that it's a small amount but go out to our p and everyone was provided with a copy of the documentary do you this was a good idea so i had i had a few concerns about the under the background and foxboro page the first page and i just had some suggestions and i'll i need to make it easier for  check in a business pack as well as three additional commercial plazas numerous small businesses in professional offices in july two thousand and fourteen the town entered into an agreement with me and to expand sewer in the downtown area as well as other areas in town to enhance for future commercial development i just wanted to put that in just to expand the commercial aspects of the town so that was just the only thing that you know i would like to see change and that i was fine stadium and i'm not bringing this up to go back and revote but again in the hour of p we say the duration is three years ok and somewhere else and it says you know we're open for a long term relationship again this goes back to a little communication that this topic was voted at the last meeting with no backup for existing contracts existing agreements a time manager some one of the members had asked what the agreement was we had no opportunity to talk to other board members or even to go back two years in look at the discussion that happened when we went out for an hour if he now at that time there was no rhyme and reason whoever was on the board of whatever happened would uncomfortably say we need a new town council for whatever reason and then we discuss it at that time back in july in leading up to july of two thousand and twelve the discussion was let's not let that happen again let's revisit on scheduled intervals every three or four years that's what was in the honor of pete said three years the letter that was signed on behalf of the town said three years in within fifteen minutes we just put all that out the window and said for whatever reason we're not happy with this town council even though in for the reasons that he lacked the the depth or it was too conciliatory but those are the exact reasons that we hired him in the first place specifically in those was what was discussed so if we're going to go again and say we're going to look for a long term relationship and it's going to be every three years what do we say next year when we revolted again because we took a formal vote even before we signed going on when the walls made the motion in a specifically said we're going to hire this attorney for three years and it was unanimous vote in two years later where we voting it in no one bothered to pick up the old agreement no one bothered to have that discussion but within five minutes we raised a hand and now we're going to go through this whole process while we have a sitting attorney saying banks what did i do wrong and now we're starting to get letters filtered understood sound four we sign that the five member board said because of this process so we don't have to do this every year when i select it is not happy or there's a new issue the board specifically said we are going to hold this for three years all those in favor said it was a five to nothing vote how does that happen and then we revoke it without even discussing jim a you know it would have been nice to have this letter in front of us it would have been atomized at the old he and now you know going through this whole process based on some of it's hearsay some of it's bad feeling something awful whatever and he may be the best attorney or the worst attorney but what are we going to say next year when when someone wants to visit this again all those in favor or we're going to say look we've got a lot of stuff going on in the town there's a certain benefit to have someone jeopardy and some institutional knowledge you know maybe it's a good time to change maybe we're in the middle of stuff we've got town hall we've got billboards all that stuff a little bit more than a five minute discussion that's so important that is you know we have we have legal counsel for liquor for labor you know and water and sewer just said they want to happy with them so they want to got their own council which is fine he never proclaimed to be a council that did everything but unless it's broken why do we want to go back and go through this hour of people asas when we all collectively decided three years was a good time you know i go originally asked a question so you're saying that a prior board can bind a future board with its decisions not they don't bind it but at least have the ability to have that word carry on for a discussion at the next vote so you know next year there may be different votes but whoever is going to vote it would i would hope look back and say well how did we get to this point you know three years ago we had an attorney that was litigious we had a difficult time with certain things so we changed it to get something that was a little more you know work for solutions you know so just three years ago maybe some of you went here but that's the reason that we made these changes and this is the process that we did so next year you know history's a good thing to learn from and if we don't have that discussion you know next next week i'll put some on the agenda that says something in surprise everybody that's not what this is about the item said last time was town council r f p didn't say we're going to vote on it it didn't say you know we're unhappy there was nothing other than town council irish people and when a town manager says you know and i look at the minutes that were just given to us you didn't know any of the details you know some of the person to us you didn't know when he was i had to say well he was hired in july you look at the meeting minutes the snow came up from last time and we had david that wasn't even on the board we had three sitting members that two years ago voted unanimously to keep him two new members in a brand new town manager so i would have appreciated a little bit more of a heads up and a little bit more of a dialogue before we turn everything upside down and go out and you know it's nice you know this is a great package that says what foxboro is about but we're going to be doing this every year now that's what we're trying to avoid that's one of my concerns because in in the you are free you know we're asking town council to render advice and opinions and all of the sudden someone doesn't like that advice or for that opinion has a warrant going out for another hour almost the board says you know something you know we want to go on to look that's fine it's within your prerogative to do it and i don't disagree i think that everyone here for different reasons and elected and had a different sometimes of the same sometimes were different but i don't know how much we spent on gallup and i know he's one hundred forty dollars an hour what was our budget last year what was it this year you know we have a collective budget of one hundred eighty thousand for all of them how is that three years ago those are the items that i think we owed it to this town to look at before we make a decision and that meeting last time was all of ten minutes and it was mostly me speaking saying what the heck is happening here you know it's all b s a forty one forty one vote we move on to  got a budget that you know what so next year we'll do the same thing in we'll have the attorney you know that's one thing that we should have a little bit of consistency with so much don't you know with a brand new town manager someone that has some institutional knowledge over the last two years in unless he did something egregious the wrong why not honor the handshake that we had with him from the very beginning and i'm sorry that all those decisions doesn't make everybody happy you know there's there's a bunch of other boards out there some i tell you a very happy with them others might not be but how do we make this decision without that discussion and saying well i heard from another board that he wasn't happy it's just you know i think we can do better than that and it's a brand that will go through this our people bring you know three more something but why put us through that why put the time through that for something that is needless broken perhaps isn't the word we can do but i think that's what we're for after we think we can improve is there's a lot of self improvement for everybody and we can do extent of the discussion but i think that each one of us has done our due diligence to come up to that conclusion so you know i think again i'm just looking for comments on the content of the r p but there are no no other comments i just and i comment was what are we going to do about the three years we're going to leave it three years i have this on and i just want to ask you if you look at such an eight duration of the agreement  yes it is an annual appointment i think that the purpose of three years is no different really i think insurance coverage in many ways that you typically wouldn't go out every year that i don't see talk of change every year typically  so i guess they do so in expectation of sort of an understanding that that's the way all work i just want one point to back up on the conversation which is that there's that did we've just gone past the two year mark  be beneficial to say you know here's the billings here's the expectations here's the positives and here's a negatives you know we went through a lot of difficult times and i'll say splitsville was all over the place ok there was  loses at this table and the public on the attorneys the casino item all that stuff how is planning board handling the council is they getting served well how is conservation how is all these other issues wouldn't it be to to have a dialogue to say we're happy or we're not happy and these are the reasons why so if we find out we're not happy because of a b c indy that gives us a benefit when we're looking at the new council same boy has apples to apples we just all collectively decided we don't want this type of attorney but now we're going to send out it are people going to get a whole bunch of nice suits and nice presentations and nice graphics and i don't know what people didn't like about him other than you know what was said at this table very briefly and i don't think that's fair to counsel and i don't think it's fair to the whole other boards in the town that have ongoing issues right now or items that he's involved with or you know he's there you know we haven't fired him he's still there but so so the reasons that we stayed at the table if that's the majority of the board then we eliminate the firms that are small that don't have sort of go back to the big firms so this are a few should reflect that i know i for one had been very i had i had very good reasons for our deciding to go out for an hour of peace yeah i don't know that because when we got to that meeting there was no discussion supposedly final documents of the the slits film we got those documents at four o'clock in the afternoon and we were expected to like ok then what we spent was two hours going through those documents and some people call that nitpicking i call that to diligence and what we found in that two hour discussion looking over these that document what we found was language that was not language that the bush selectman had expected to be in there and the examples in the back in the splitsville discussions we went back and forth on things there were there were things that were agreed to two of them one was a community policing plan and one was the funding for the policeman to be hired for the town the same the same that the policemen that ad only we spoke about tonight that was the negotiations that we had it was it was a separate item negotiated the community policing plan was a separate item to go sh the language in that final document linked the community policing plan with the police for the town that was not what was negotiated and it wasn't until we went back and forth at the table for two hours and we finally got that language straightened out so that ed o'leary could come to us tonight so that we've we would get as mitigation in pepper too in perpetuity that policem that was my concern that language the language that we had negotiated the negotiations we had done were not reflected in that in that document and that was my concern and i do not want to see that happen again that that that surprises me because i was that i was heavily involved in that whole process and this is the first time that i'm hearing that has risen i looked at a council that to be honest with you kept that stuff together and kept us out of a lawsuit to get us to that point and i think we got everything that and he wanted from whitman at what at what cost length with that was in there meant down the road when down the road there was a loophole in there that down the road the if the community policing plan it was decided not it wasn't working out then that could be stopped in because it was because the policemen the full time police linked to that it meant that  they that they were no longer are we going to pay the town for a policeman that link with that linkage was not what was negotiated by us that linkage was inserted in that final document and we had to we had to look at it and did not in my mind we were not served very well by town counsel's office and i say that and i say that not as a person that it didn't like the decisions shares that same goal to look out for the town down the road i remember it differently i remember it at that point the council that we had was responsible for putting a lot of angry people together and keeping it going that we would down the road there was a loophole that could have been used and i think a call process of us reviewing the documents with the town council i think it worked because that item came up it was picked up we worked through it am not a professional i'm not i'm not we are not professionals we depend on the advice and counsel of town council and it is our expectation that when we have a legal document before us is a legal document that we negotiated and it was in it was to the benefit to the to the benefit of the town to foxborough and not the other paddy down the road if i don't have that in front of us well we i disagree i genuinely i when i am happy to say i believe what you say you believe i see it differently remember a different look at the big picture of everything if that was a detail that upset you but it was brought up and caught so be it it was a very big deal very big detail and we were criticized by a nit pick in the two hours but if we hadn't been reviewing that that would not that would not have been in there  are the discussions that we and maybe not to this level but a five minute you know all those in favor of a new town council without these discussions i don't know how we do it i don't know how we're going down that i think you can see jim that each person at the table has their own opinion on this and their own reasons i think cheney is just shared one of her reasons and my hope was that we would not go any further down this path of discussing these reasons because it's clear that the majority have reasons for wanting to offer our peace so i'd like to get back to the topic which is just if we can just ask bill to look at the issue of the individual versus the large group to make sure that that's clear in here that it would be you know individuals with their own affiliations to be spelled out clearly what i mean the one on the one point of reference one point of this mission i think you all should think about though is that if you want to go out to bed and you can there was still a possibility that the current council could be a real reappointed you would effectively be eliminating him from consideration here by doing  for whatever it doesn't make a difference he's not representing as you do the one point i'll just make in response to comments in which that the way i understood this conversation was that the board is looking to go to our peak to evaluate what's out there then but i also think it needs more depth i'm not just a one issue person but i have that i don't know that it's that he doesn't have enough depth to this table because when we need it we pull another councils and if you know if it's depth and issues so be it but i have no way of knowing unless this is talked about and you're saying other board other boards have depth issues with them fine i've heard that but could not could we not have had that discussion before we got to this point other than we just want to know one because that's what we want all those in favor that's not what the way i expect us to do the work this is and at this table any other comments i think  would help if we got information from the other boards and know about some of the some of the use you so we are evaluating on and now we take those in the account and we can ask specific because it because it does give the old the bully the board to make its own determination of it's just sort of an understanding but it's not it's not it's acknowledged even in the in the in the recent even though the approve the request for proposal for resubmit it for their consideration they said it was fine so what you have before you tonight is what's been approved reviewed by the a g s office and then make a suggestion i think when i when i brought this up i was more concerned with steps to want having this issue because we're trying to mimic what the state law is so if resident jones wants to come in file a complaint that's not what the purview they follow the state guidelines they bring it to whoever they want to drop it off with whoever nothing to do with us our responsibility in our procedure starts with step two that says within fourteen days of that this is what we do we don't go to the town manager we don't you know we collectively bring it that's not even up to us let there be someone wants to file a complaint in the wrong place or twenty days late that's their responsibility for you know whatever the complaint is in their process that they're due diligence but when it comes to law complaint procedure i think that's the procedure when it's when someone files it does a procedure not jim is right because we really are i work begins here yeah but i'm just saying that title this isn't the procedure to file an open meanwhile complaint which is what number agreement with everybody on the committee but i think we have a mean majority and i think i think we can see each other's point where they're coming from our biggest concern relative to the renovation comes into play with what's going to be left over in the square footage and does it meet what the working group has identified is at actual needs once you get into play a coordination in looking at ceiling heights and running sprinkler lines and if would see owns you start to lose square footage so i think we talked about that today it was a good discussion and i think we're we're moving in the right  seen they cause them to pause so i think that's what we want to do is we want to least present people with the residents with the full picture of what we've been doing we have one person feels very strong about renovation project there's a lot of reasons why we don't want to do this and why it doesn't make sense to do that and i just spent a week a national conference talking to various consultants about this particular project and to a person hundreds or major state buildings or even national buildings the federal building said that required those kind of renovations to what we're dealing with a building that was is a pretty basic building for the most part and it never was really fully finished them if you look at the p c system was never really fully connected there is so we're going to have a lot of eighty eight requirements a lot of structural sharing require was that all required for the co to several groups about about the project so people understand the reasons how we got to this point and why work in many what we're going to recommending so at the end of the day we hope that the people want to stand up and vote you know with a full  isn't one person it's really one person it was no people from his committee from before anyone else on the board that says we've studied it but that this has merit to renovate it because of x y and z is one person it's really one person now where this one person is very vocal and the campaign or the information and you do well on t v look good to get that information out there and i've said it before every other building project has had a group that has been excited that have gone in and gone door to door basically we just don't do it we don't this table has done it to be permanent billing committee information there and spreadsheets and pictures and no on on t v but those letters astin to come to the newspaper you know and it's a mix it's almost it's almost a sport to say you know i i've had a house for forty years i don't knock it down i ground that pumps out storm water and sewer at the same time there's nothing salvageable the stuff that you get to put in it the elevators and here in the bathrooms and all that stuff it's a complete retrofit other than the brick facade even they they get mad at it now they're going to vote for b because they don't like the selectmen so that that's the mattel and it's no different than any other town but we've got to figure out a way to get the word out to get people excited about it why i think the you what i actually went to a summit on this is a couple weeks ago a couple days ago actually and one of the things that they raised which really made a lot of sense to me was the fact that this isn't just a building this is this you see your center of government this is something you should all be proud of and i've heard people say well it's only for thirty people this is for literally thousands of people in this community who walk through those doors at one point or another for a meeting for her to get a permit to get to pay their taxes to do to get to do do the town business a lot of people never got to tell all that's understood and therefore they're going to going to be sort of ambivalent about the whole thing but i will tell you though that the government works through you know the four corners of the building and quite honestly the current building doesn't function very well the people function well but the building was a function well at all so i think we really need to think about it in that term those terms this is the center of our government this is a very proud community we should take pride in the fact that we have a we have a building that we because of our government and we've taken pride in virtually everything else we've done we this is the one piece that's remaining that needs to be done and i think that's the focal point in taking a step further at the beginning of our meeting tonight we're talking about liquor licenses and be good to build you know a different you know business base and in attract business you know as an engineer when i come into a town hall with a client you want to roll down a plant you want an environment where you have some some space some integrity that there's a building department is assessors in right now and sometimes in a standing in a hall because there's no place to go and granted yeah we can renovate it and make it the same afterwards but to conduct business for that for population of one hundred thousand plus or minus people from what i see from you know the other town halls we're so far behind really is unacceptable front door to the town and i think what we have going against us is if you stand out look at the building it's got the cooper let's get the brick market the white you know looks colonial doesn't happen yet but and that's why as if it was just one person because if it was a debate that's been going on with the building committee that has worked you know all the other projects i would say maybe this american i have not found one person that has looked at it from an architectural engineering site survey that says there's merit to rebuilding this building and at the end of the day you're go get a much better product to my renovating it's just not out there that's really not what's out there is the excitement to read a letter and say i'm not going to vote for it so we think that by building new you know you get a long term value for the dollar the reporter to sort of set the record so he's great i think was a good explanation and that sort of countered some of the other opposing it is going to be more of that because we have others that are going to be all right because they they feel so compelled to set the record straight i mean it's unfortunate but there seems to be this this swell of support for you know an untrue scenario i mean he could you absolutely want it you could absolutely there's no question about it but but is it the right thing to do and the answer is no i mean we think that it's pretty good money after bad and we don't we don't recommend you do that for that reason and you know when i've tried to say this to people that i probably have the most objective perspective and they was probably right behind me here we came out of this committee brand new i mean i had no dog in this fight when i when i came in that this was strictly the only thing a look at this thing and see what what what makes sense and i looked at the reservation because you know you know on its face value it seems to be it might save you money but when we stop peeling back the layers and look at everything it's like to save money i mean it may save you money on the initial investment over the longer term is more caution more so i don't think it's the right decision to make i think we should be shortsighted here we need to be one sided and to think what's the best thing for the so i'll tell you want once you get in into the building and you start looking at the construction and what what really needs to be done to do a full gut rehab there's no long term dollar value to we al the areas that are known to be suspect but that's not when you do get rehab you've got to do a follow up study and identify all potential areas if you wanted to be a good build what for the next fifty years you have to address it now otherwise you know you just can be thrown you know good money after bad it's going to be an expensive building to operate so by building new you can take care you can take advantage of today's building methods energy i think it it sits well in the to the part that it's on and looks good from the street i spent some time down the basement to there and it just it took me a while and i'm not a builder or to be a while to resolve but it has to go you have been one of the theory is that people had if we tore it down and rebuilt it that it wasn't going to be similarly to what we have now because people like that look at it you know it was like the six million dollar man you know we can rebuild the know and but i mean that in the sense that we really have to think about what we have here we have a scenario where we have to really take it apart take it down and start over because the the and it's interesting top shape i said you know i said you know it's interesting that we have this conversation this afternoon he said he said what do you do as i why renovate buildings he said i build new buildings he said would you would you consider renovating this bill he said absolutely not he says this doesn't make any sense to r because there's nothing in here that's that's and he just was there for ten minutes looking around why would you and you bring the downstairs i didn't bring justice he looked at the outside and inside he says there's no reason to say this he would i would if i was given every day this is my work here in town hall senior centers and there's no value in the long run for putting the money to renovate not something that is just not substantial to begin with and there are a lot of folks in the community were very conservative and i recognize that we and we really we really suspect we really we really respect that that they are the ones that they want to make sure that would spend the dollars wisely and i think that's exactly what we're trying to do it that's one number one goal is to make sure we spend the money we don't talk about that much is if this was done three years ago the bids that are coming in now are a lot higher than they were three years ago everybody's you construction costs have gone up twenty percent in the incline likely the interest rates are not bumped up but every contract that is out there that is busy right now because this is number this is a really important piece of information for the public to know that every quarter that we miss by not doing this project it's about a sixty thousand dollar bump in the cost so by waiting we're actually spending money that we did we should be spending in the building not in the in not just wasting so that we can't continue to wait because it's becoming more expensive as we do charlotte north carolina for five five days and it was a great meeting i actually got to talk to a lower colleagues around the country about power projects you know stuff that we're working on  d some great sessions on dealing with difficult issues like such as the one we're dealing with and how i we can trust convey the the message to how important these things are because it's not always as simple as black and white for a lot of people there's a lot of gray in between that people need to understand so we're going to try and do a better job of that and i think i have a couple strategies that i picked up from that i'll be able to use i got a lot of compliments on my new system by the way a lot of the massachusetts folks people that they talk to all the time they don't really think about themselves and how they can feed off each other and how they can you know make their programs more successful and reaching out to the community and making them making taking use of making use of what they have currently offer so i would actually be donated to us by the by the crack group for the use of the stadium and produce in the community this agreement that we have been working on we should have that way for next next meeting and also have an update you from attorney john davis on the on the recent