i did score this case boils down to the proper interpretation of the word normal it normally is synonymous with the words most or typical we when it isn't we lose is not a specialty occupation specifically it held up the occupational outlook and both does not state that at least a bachelor's degree or its equivalent in a specific specialty is normally the minimum required criterion which states that an occupation all of this is a specialty occupation if it bachelor's degree is normally the minimum requirement for entry into the article and then we're focusing on that word normally this is the sole authority to guide book or determining whether a position satisfies that st criteria and so looking at the occupational allat handbook the o h we see that the entry for computer programmers a section that says how to become one and the o h says most computer programmers have a bachelor's degree in computer science for a related subject and then we further know that you know age says that this subsection describes that most the education that most workers typically need to enter and not just even more bluntly under the quick back section of the it says that the typical level of education that most workers need to regulatory creates here in the bachelor's degree is normally required unfortunately defended the reads the word normally out of existence from the regulation and of course we recognize that it can and of construction is that words are not  decision really is contained in the single paragraph where they say it is stated in the you know it the occupation allows for a wide range of educational vegetables including an associate's degree to qualify just false it's wrong there's not a wide range of seemingly trying to decipher a way in which the o h differentiates between programmers who have about your street and computer programmers who have an associates degree there's not a separate category of computer programmers who ha source to to assist or the argument but it really is conflating that st criterion which is all we're talking about today with another one of the criterion if you're there really was not thinking about the district or looked at the particular position offered by in nevada and it looked at this sort of job duties not isn't involved in the st grade here you know we really have to hearken back to the notice of clarification provided by defendant appellee  no one's arguing about it and then you look to b o h and see disease how do we determine categorically say that a bachelor's degree is normally the minimum required and you don't have to use those specific words start by stepping back and looking at the regulation in its entirety and the regulation sets forth as mister woken indicated a four part test  determining whether a job falls within a specialty occupation and he one of those four parts if the answer is in the affirmative then the job is to be found to be in a specialty occupation and the four parts go from the sort of a broad level analysis to a very specific analysis so the st criteria the criteria that's at issue here has to do with an occupation speaking broadly just that occupation indicates that it's a specialty occupation nd step has to do with the industry that looks particularly at the industry certain step looks at the employer does question is not whether or not there is specific evidence that this position satisfies the definition of the a as a specialty occupation and so to return to your question judge where significantly her failure to analyze the word most and to consider the definition of the term most and how that interrelated with the term normally  what was the analysis and there was not significantly the defendants and their brief to this supplemental brief to this court as to the impact of the interim final regulation quote that interim final regulation as laying out what the definition of normally ends and specifically they call there are agency material to say the definition of  normally means most of the talk and so that takes us full circle back to what the o h says which is that most individuals do have a bachelor's degree in a specific specialty and in this case there's no question that they there has been no question about whether or not it's a specific specialty because it's as identified in the l h it's a computer science or a related degree and the regulatory language in the statutory language which requires that the that john bates a normal basis for entry into the occupation of bachelor's degree that it's required as opposed to have and they make a distinction between those two words but in reality common sense indicates that the reason most computer programmer programmers were how battlers is because employers would require it and the occupation would demand it and so i do think that's a semantic argument that carries no weight finally i just want to mention that this case is the new regulation that's going into effect or just when what is it that has no impact here is that correct that's correct your honor and the reason it has no impact there are two things st primarily because it is not require at least a bachelor's degree for entry into the occupation you know only challenges us c i s is determination as to the st century and that the language of the age did not describe the minimum educational requirements workers with an associates degree congress for invited the agency with the statutory mandate to determine whether an employer has met their burden of establishing their that their position as a specialty occupation are asking the court to say that in the place of the agency and hope that the o age and authoritative reference establishes that all computer programmers positions all high as a specialty occupation and that simply you just explain to me what that means what it means is in order to explain that i have to st date that there are three layers to this analysis there's a statute that normal minimum requirement for entry whether the agency does is it looks at the the language the information in the o h as an authorit reference and especially in the absence of petition or presenting other relevant information because again these petitions are based on their burden of proof and it has to determine whether that information that that that description of that occupation provides enough information to hire a factory and regulatory definition so in doing sell it in that way it looks at under the regulation for the normal minimum entry requirement is one that announced a standard entry requirement but that it recognizes that there are certain exceptions so when you look at the language and when the agency looked at the language of their own wage in this case for computer programmers it contains could be zero each wasn't meant to be is just a reference in the survey of the occupation so when the agency looks to it for information as to what the minimum entry requirements are it looked at a description that states must individual most computer programmers so because the individuals in that occupation already have a bachelor's degree however some employers for hire are higher or quire individuals with an associates degree which doesn't doesn't qualify as a minimum of actual history as a minimum educational requirement twenty when you're having when you have a description that has information that indicates that  quizzical language that indicates that while most you know individuals have this but some employers hire associates people with associates degree then it's not a matters mantic the it was reasonable for the agency to look at that and say this if you have it and if you agree to rely on the l h and you agreed that we can rely on this to meet the to determine whether the math of your burn are proof to the st criterion it doesn't it doesn't contain language that categorically indicate that that's a common requirement so if you don't need that but but the thing is in this case what's what computer programmers have this when individuals have i think indicate what the requirement is for to for entry meaning what employers hire so it can buy what you higher only if employers if there are some employers out there that will hire an individual with them so she is degree back is what to know what is a requirement for entry because it's what most individual most computer programmers have it however some employers hire individuals with hire people with associates degree this is the regulation and the statue required that vs what an individual have so individual so much description in a reference that's being used when it says oh most individual most computer programmers have this but some honor because what it's similar to the district court's reasoning than how the district court looked at it because when we the agency when it looks at this when it when it uses the zero age as a reference equivocal so if if you use the word if the minimum education in the surveys of an occupation indicate that and there are some employers out there who hire individuals with a associates degree and then you follow up later in that description with well typically they need this it doesn't tell the agency in a categorical fashion it doesn't indicate to the agency in a categor fashion that that is a that employers throughout occupation have that as a army it just isn't it means there's a space between there's a there's a space between what the descriptions and what the and what is the regulation requires and so for the language of the regulation and so it was reasonable for the agency to look at that and say you know that the that that the emptiness between what we're trying to find the information in the young age if it doesn't indicate that there's a standard entry employers we don't know but there are some in this occupation it wouldn't appear under the st criteria and so you haven't met your burn the truth and that is what is at issue and in these types of cases that and that's why yes we are talking about the st criterion we're own we're only focused because that's all they challenge but it's a glaring fact because if they have if they can't if they're referring  basically a bright line rule that says degree let yet some people hire those who just as my mind is that if you found a person with an associates degree only fell of twenty plus years of computer programming experience line rule but looking to see what is it that this person this petition before h one b visas and i do think that a person with twenty years experience and an eighty degree is one hell of a lot more valuable and should be the type of person this and it's based on what the occupational whatever information is available on the occupation as to criterion one and whether the information in that reference meets this the regulatory criteria or would indicate in a categorical fashion so a good example i think would be lawyers or doctors so typically if we have the agency is not saying that individuals with an associate degree and twenty years of experience with who would end employers when we want that that that's not something in an individual that employers would want to hire on the agency was saying was that ok we have under the st criterion when you're just looking at the occupation and what is the requirement for entry into that what is the normal minimum entry requirement does the information in the survey that we're all lying on and and absent other relevant information that you petition or has admitted your status your burn the proof of if we're just looking at that what most employers or the usual what is the standard what isn't what is the standard that employers would hire why we have keeping in mind that there certain limited action if that's the case the agency look at that language in that survey and in in it just says you know why it doesn't categorically establish that and so when in doing so that that would apply to all of the regulatory criteria so if they want to show that in op p p that is their position at an occupational level because we have four so the st is the occupation the and yes if they want to try to show that as an occupation that that the criteria that the this is the requirement of actually screens or army he could submit other any and all relevant information they could submit information on other surveys that are conducted on a nationwide basis or any survey that's conducted about the opposite of computer programming occupation and the agency will consider that that's not  typical level of education needed to enter the occupation is a bachelor's degree and to use other source books we would love to use that we would love to go to any any other the regulation and use the word limited exceptions instead of the word normally he could have but he didn't specifically chose the word normally and that's what we have to look at we have to look at the regulation as written in the regulation normally required i said this earlier but i just can't think of a greater parallel between the words normally required and typically needed if you are able to somehow hoarse that those are different to councils and interesting case and i appreciate all your all your fine arguments and we all appreciate your fine arguments is working so thank you the matter is the same that it is time and i believe that our session for today