and community members please silence also phones or any other noise making devices before we begin thank you very much and attending the meeting here is obviously myself in the chair  shortly will be chair of the council mr mike white and mr bob carroll is excuse as he's making his way to hunt and joining us today we have the honor of having a non voting member mr don agenda is i am eleven paren two which is the orientation workshop by department of public works and also i am thirty five amendment to contract for m s four per meeting and storm water management plan c five four seven zero dash two now we shall give the parameters for our testimony and if you would like to please sign up at the front desk in our lobby and please testify only on the agenda items listed here today you're given three minutes to test hi and also when testifying please state your name and any organization you may be representing  for ladies thank you for being there members i guess seen there's no one wishing to testify without objection i will now close public testimony thank you very much ok getting to our first item then that would be i am eleven dash parent two and this is pursuant to rule seven b of the rules of the council the comedian tends to have an orientation workshop to be conducted by department of public works and the workshop may cover such topics as the department of public works for permitting and stormwater management plan and to day we shall be having the presentation looks like with mr good  program but these are the individuals that are working primarily on the new storm our management program that we have in the the m s four permit which we've talked about previously with with the council so  is actually covered in the charter under the department of public works and for years storm water has primarily been about volume and velocity of water as it relates to our rules ordinances and practices but now we need to do more whole a lot more with the transport of pollutants in water understanding better the assets that we have in our storm water system and maintaining that and reporting now through our four permit to the partner to health on those activities relatively new for the department and does put additional strain on our resources and that little thing that bounced and reminds us that when it rains significant liabilities do exist and we need to deal with that so the onus for again is the miscible separate storm sewer system we talked about this previously when we were with  with you most recently i think it's january twelfth of this year oh well we had a meeting with this committee and we brought a lot of the department of health mr mack corrado also oversee this program we learned urbanized area as we mentioned previously in our last time we met we have six different categories that we need to perform in to that we control these pollutants that are borne by storm water to the maximum extent practicable which is the key language in the federal statute so as an overview e p a is in charge of the clean water act and they delegated those responsibilities to the state department of health here in the state oil they probably get it rules on how to do  they manage that program then we become a regulated entity which we now are and then we have to change our practices rules ordinances eventually you know through this committee or other committees potentially and we are going to be entering into various agreements the types agreements that are certainly possible are memoranda of agreements with the various entities i wine with each other so for instance we have facilities in cali that avenue which is department transportation and they could come out through the harbor could go through the college etc so we're all kind of tied together and also will need season those are generally m o use and we have a memorandum of agreement that were drafted that would work between our two part of the public works department which is overseeing the program and other county departments like changes for which we don't have direct oversight with but have the ability through agreements to manage what they do the to the extent practica supposed to do currently the permit is managed by the engineering division and also the development services administration which is why i introduced the other folks that are here today because we staff we have produced a star modern management plan that was one of the first tasks that was required in the permit and now we're in the process of managing that that in producing the variety of things that are required of that plan in taking the first step the first thing we need to do was to really understand the permian was the department public works the right and city to handle that and the more we looked at the more you realize that probably eighty percent of the requirements does fall into our department and again stormwater is mentioned as a responsibility of the department in the charter so with that met with the mayor's office and said you know it's probably us we need help with the other departments  and which is why we need the memoranda of agreement but it also meant that it's a whole new task with a lot of responsibilities that we haven't been doing on existing staff and resources and so h manage that and so we started with just developing a kind of internal working group primarily the folks that are here today and others to see how you know how can we make this work how do on is essentially is going to mean that certainly least in engineering division is that we're going to lose our ability to produce other projects your hard infrastructure projects there's only so much time in the day i was only so much we can do so for variety of manner if you will and it's something that we also as we go through the presentation today we're going to look at how we envision staffing that and paying for it in a variety of ways and so i'll be talking about that at the at the end of the presentation i'll turn it over to john with representatives from highways division engineering and development services administration think that it's best to have an entity that separate from those three divisions as a small  management division its focus is water quality and as we started going through what does that division look like we started to point to figure out what are some of the liabilities that the county has in relation to storm water so the next three sides before i get into the nuts and bolts of what the division looks like is what are some of those liabilities that we have today in particular we started with infrastructure we know that in the in the louis was defined by the census we have aging infrastructure there's a picture and kahlua we have a sinkhole and by and large to replace the cost to replace that system that's in the ground is unknown in addition because we have these new water quality requirements we see a real need for expertise in in this area of water quality when it comes to low impact development that's kind of a buzz word term that you've probably all heard before but it's something that tries to mimic natural conditions and tries to reduce  are impervious areas in new development we'll also see some liabilities associated with maintenance currently our highways division is focuses on pavement preservation which y know not necessarily focused on storm drainage and in particular not focused on water quality and storm drainage so there's a number of practices that emits for permit program requires us to look at that will increase responsibilities when it comes to maintenance of stormwater and in addition this is sort of the one that it's a no brainer there's there's some of it there's some liabilities associated with environmentalists statics from our county we know that poor water quality can negatively impact tourism water sports fishing culture practices except for a so that's just in a nutshell some of the things that we started to think about when it comes to the liabilities associate with storm water so what's what's next  this new division that we're talking about we see it as sort of a three pronged division i do want to emphasize it's we're not talking about a division that's equal in size to any of our existing divisions in fact very small but separate entity that can focus on storm water quality we see these three specific areas storm water resource planning an asset management tool box with the check marks per million compliance and communications and accounting the next eight slides and i'm going to go through and quickly deal with those those three specific  the first is there is resource planning going in this falls closely in line with what we do in engineering we're talking about here a focus on water quality when it comes to resource planning so currently you'll see in the next slides we'll have a currently understaffed section in the blue bullet is no it's a new task or there's there's actually no permanent staff available to do that these new tasks that are require so example is for resource planning and engineering is developing standalone water quality projects that we don't currently do so any new development in the county now has a requirement excuse me to develop a storm water quality component to that project meaning we're not just trying to get the storm water as fast as we can out of the stream we're trying to have some form of treatment before it actually gets to the train to this to the stream are over one hundred years old in our engineering division of our existing system and we're going through those and we're pulling we're aggregating them or pull them all together or we're putting them into a g i s system so we can understand not only already mentioned we're developing a memorandum of understanding with those entities and each each point where our system enters their system or vice versa is a is a point of compliance and a point of agreement that section in asset management again goes to maintenance so not just our highways maintenance parks maintenance too but like dave said probably eighty percent of this falls under  we we currently do things like street sweeping but that that program will need to be greatly enhanced as part of this permit program will be looked at closely because it's identified as b m p or a best management practice that's highly effective in removing pollutants from storm water so deal which will come in and look at our program and say ok you're doing a good job you're not going to want a good job here and that's something that this group could help highways division manage in addition to changes in practices when it comes to mean and there's also a number of new housekeeping items that will have to be done at county base yard and that's compliance this program requires the county to develop a connection permit or or a license and what this does is every time there's a new development or redevelopment in the county and they want to connect to the county system there needs to be a mechanism to track that and to monitor that's another point of compliance so connecting to the county system will need a license and that has that falls under the illicit discharge and detection and elimination portion of the permit so that's something we're we're actually currently working on as well there's a there's a big part of enforcement when it comes to that new regulation currently we don't have staff to go out and enforce you know a new regulation when it comes to discharging into them as for finally communications and accounting and i'll turn it back to dave but from a communications standpoint there are two major points that we need to follow public education is a huge part of the amas for program things like repairing education articles working with schools etc developing and maintaining a website on the county website or web page just dedicate stormwater coordinating with other m s for working with the community groups that we have we have a number of community groups nonprofits that are very interested in keeping our stormwater clean and are actually looking for ways to partner with the county so this is an area where we we need some additional resources to work with those groups and then finally as part of that same section we would get into accounting and how we pay for all of this and with that i'll turn it back to  right thanks john as you can see as outlined in general some of the program areas and and highlighted of just a handful of the multitude of steps that are required to to fill this program need and actually you discuss as relates to you know how we pay and and how do we staff up for something like this and there's a lot of options out there and what i challenged myself but also the staff with is how do we let's let's all let's overturn every stone if you will within our department first and see where we have opportunities you know how can we do this without his coming over here and saying i need exposition x million dollars and so we came up with some authorization to come up with storm water based fees if they so desire so we're not required to to do that but it is something that's an opportunity for the counties quite frankly not sure where the other counties are with us and who seriously looking at it but there are plenty of stormwater type fees and jurisdictions throughout the country that have the opportunity that is out there we're not currently proposing anything along those lines  but i think it's just important we highlight the fact that it does exist and it was just recently  program we've also starting to develop partnerships with a variety of community organizations looking for other funding opportunities we've been approached by the state for what they call these three one thousand funds that are available primarily for projects not necessarily for the program aspect of it we've had training classes within our department of parks and other departments and we're starting to adopt various practices within those in particular on  meeting the actual extent practical provisions within again our existing resources and personnel cetera and someone once called you know the first two years were a program like this the honeymoon so as from a regular standpoint you know i actually do applaud in this regard they're trying to help us they've brought in experts they've actually brought in the e p a in the p s console him to see what we have see where we need to go made a lot of recommendations and i think you saw th spirit of cooperation when they were here in january they want to they want us to succeed we'd like to succeed because the alternative of course is things like sense agrees which none of us want to do for f y sixteen is not currently the budget so it's an amendment that we would be looking at and this is an example of  you know looking internally to see what we can do what we've identified and again this is with the assistance of our new fiscal analysts that we now have the department we never had before and someone can really scour the books and look at options and also give credit to carry on a sheet and tie but we're looking at either taking one of our existing positions or creating a new position that actually be federally funded  and that just falls in the general federal reimbursements but if you look our track record of the last number of years it's substantial it's a stance on the to justify one of our positions should be federally funded to me that opens up a general physician ok would stay in engineering division but in the interim they could help manage this program and then be the link between injuring division in the store water management of vision so it's just a it's worth highlighting because it's something that i think speaks to the matter which we're trying to find the program in f y seventeen we'll be looking to propose to the merits for the mayor to sign on to of course and put in his etc and then an f a eighteen compliment that with the compliance officer has the new ordinances get promulgated rules get promulgated then we need the compliance people so we don't need them up front  but they can come in and suing yours on a clerical position to help make sure everything stays together and then we start to look at highways division made and stuff so as we develop programs we understand what the needs are and as we run the next permit cycle it d u h because it's a three year john three year permit deal wage each permit cycle tends to get tighter looser as we understand what those parameters are we can look at what i always division may  need the new highways division could for instance have a separate stormwater section like that we have a separate pavement preservation section so those personality quitman are geared towards handling these types of highway funds for the you know the maintenance and support of the roads some of that you know can be towards the i guess the water comes off the roads towards storm water but in general storm water quality type things are  generally fun general fund expense so in pay again getting back to the question of how he pay for this as i mentioned it is it has been general fund so far it can seem to see there being general proposed budget for seventeen will hopefully include some adjustments these fees lawyers fees are pretty old therefore stale and don't really reflect the amount of effort that goes into those those  fees and since water quality will be a new aspect that's reviewed under all these permits it makes sense that some of these costs get covered by appropriate fees the billing plan a revolving fund actually it's a much longer name but on the condenser i think that was discussed recently in committee that comes from building permit fees those  some of those projects do have water quality issues but more importantly looking at the the the the agenda of the health of the fund the type of monies that it generates and the positions that are currently covered by that fund which is fourteen we think we can safely increase that to sixteen and hence free up to general fund positions so the idea would be that two general fund positions currently india say would move to a building permit revolving fund freeing up to general fund positions that could then go towards a solid waste management division so it's another example where we found an opportunity within our department to cover the needs  there is our dollars so again you know i don't mean to beat this but if we just need to be reminded that there's a large cost to not doing anything i haven't found anybody that's against making our water cleaner and you know it has to be realistic we want to spend our money is very wisely we want to use them towards you know projects and programs and policies that will new reality for us and as you can see through this presentation we've spent a lot of time really trying to understand it and how best we can manage it on behalf of the entire county and we look forward to any questions you may have and again thanks for the opportunity to speak to thank you director and thank you mr smith and your department's work in all this members at this time and and these new things that they're requiring us to do and the providing the funding no no funding other than the opportunity to have these three nineteen funds or various you know project related funding which is not covering program costs so why wouldn't our constitutional requirement of the state paying for the new additional responsibilities to a county that comes with funding a part of this consideration where we're going to pay you what the state should be paying us to do right it's a good question i might defer to mr hopper to my left but i think because they're centrally the pass through agency of federal statute they might hang their hat on that well i don't mind they can go into court and me i mean a ruling on this to basically trigger a couple of things from the federal side i think one is the regulations and the other also the department of transportation regulations and i think since they tie the federal funding for the highway funding and  types of funds to classifying areas as urban areas and the other regulations related to those as has happened with sitting in county and of honolulu i think it's not necessarily a federal mandate i think it's  federal government saying as a condition for these federal funds there are additional compliance requirements of the counties i think that's where a lot of the authority comes from and when we originally took a look at this now that's obviously the question with the county be better off if it you know looked at the didn't take the federal funds it you know net and that's you know i guess a consideration that can be looked at but my understanding is that that's the background in this but again this is things that were considered years ago this isn't the first we've heard of the actual of the actual requirements coming upon the county were a couple of years i think into the compliance process at this point but in general the federal government would have the authority by basically attaching it to its purse strings which is where i think most of these requirements would come from because in general the federal government wouldn't necessarily have the requirement to make the county do these these things it would tie it to federal money through highway funds and other funds you know of that nature so i  think that's where the background comes from as far as their authority to not only have the county of maui have to deal with not only this issue but the form a formation of planning organizations and others in order to ask for the federal money and and so i think that's a bit more of the background where where we're looking at right here so is that we don't move this forward we don't get federal dollars we lose x amount of federal dollars for projects is that matter of share i think that's definite where we're out on the highway side and in this particular side i don't think there's any funding that i'm aware of i think the alternative is to get fined and there are there is in fact clean water act issues as well that the federal government would be imposing in addition to the transportation requirements again they kick in with the counties becoming a an urban area under the federal government but i mean that's that's part of the federal ability to regulate regulate not only private but also public  public property that they deal with clean water act issues you know understand that you know what they get because there's been changes the new order of the u s will has just been overturned costs this week so the new rule is not going to be into effect or implemented at all so depends on the environment or who goes to court and what the courts rule my thing is you know  think we make decisions on how we want to approach this requirements it's on the going to make the commitment on knowing what is for financial impact and responsibilities and i think a performer is a four because it's is this triggered by the population of is it correct to say that the regulations that come with that are going to be says you can't discharge certain substances into the storm drains we can't have that ordinance just for whether to cali right or if we have a public education piece we can't just educate that they see the whole all of it being honest for so we're having some push and pull if you will we see that the program will be both county wide in certain areas and geographically specific to the urban area but i can see the need for controlling pollutants but does this also mean that we've got to control sediment just pure sediment you know all of the high and all the while oh it's all so all stuff that didn't used to be there right i think what the program does is it gives us a venue to work with the larger landowners for issues like that so in sediment in particular outside of the urbanized area that's not part of this program but public education about how we use the land  is i guess that's i would start to answer that question if it's primarily meant for urbanized areas that that's what the original him is for is that separate storm sewer system meaning you've got infrastructure in the ground already and i think what you're talking about is is ag areas from above coming down if i'm up for it correct me if i'm wrong but no it is yeah yeah well it's sediment everywhere very yeah it is generally mostly generated by ag so the next question i had was you mentioned treatment before it goes into the stream what treatment is that and there's a there's a variety of what are called low impact development be in piece best management practices they can be things like changing the way you design your your development so rather than putting storm water directly into a pipe and out to the stream adjacent to you to run that storm water through a swale vegetated swale or they call them by retention facilities where they design the plants to take up a good portion of the storm water underground system before discharges so the idea being not that you would collect all of the storm water that comes in a flood event say but but they know of they know that most of the pollutants are washed off in say the first ten percent of the storm so that's when you get all the dirty water coming down in the urbanized area so from a treatment standpoint there's just a number of ways to treat storm water that way there are also proprietary inserts that you would put in a catch basin or a manhole that are designed to remove sediments oils trash exciter a were they would have to be maintained on a regular basis but that's what we're talking about we're saying treat the storm water before it goes into the stream or the ocean  i'm assuming all these things are pretty well documented well tested and stormwater low impact development is is in emerging field i would say it's not every year there are new technologies that come out that can do this smarter or better if you want to say but it's been around in most jurisdictions for the past twenty years or so this is just new to  target was designed so that the runoff from the parking lot went to those grassed areas first and then into their storm drain system which then went to the retention base and they built as part of that business park so that's just  an example along the lines of johns mentioned that has been implemented here in my county and how we deal with the areas in cali that are already built up and have no area for grass and retention basins and so forth you know it would primarily be new projects but also projects that we do say if we  redo it existing train system and or something like that we have perhaps looked at opportunities within that system itself to look perhaps through the manhole desi or to retrofit our drainage systems and quaalude one of the cool that's actually one of the biggest part of this program is to get a better handle on our existing infrastructure in terms of its you know where it's at its useful life in a lot of ways it's like cycling what we went through with the roads you know the last ten years is understanding where each road is what take nique is going to be best suited for it because certainly don't want to we don't want to tear out  replace every single pipe a really expensive it's probably going to need in some areas saw a picture of the sinkhole we've had more than one but we have other areas where maybe the pipe is just starting to responsible for curtailing their runoffs and they just have to help pay for that or how does that work yeah i can answer in general that they all have m s four permits  so because they're in the one who khali urban area and they're a government entity they came out of the imus for another and us for might be definitely different than ours they don't have the ability to propagate ordinances for instance will have to do is understand better exactly what their permit conditions are actually already meeting with d o t because they're the biggest player in the us right in their staffing consultants to understand how we type things but that's what the m o use are because they could potentially say well sorry this we can't fix this runoff but we would be response we the county would be responsible for that i think but john mentions a point of discharge so if you're d o t and i'm bringing water to you i'm discharging to you so you're receiving it right right he would probably have a concern with what you're getting so it's i think that's i think that's the way it works ok so it's not into the ocean is to discharge from one system to another well then it all goes to the right and receding body so there's out for those of the outfalls right we have all falls in certain areas sure in other areas like colonies all more complex county what about things like you said you need to increase street sweeping is that for the whole county or is that just for you know the urban area would we would focus on the urbanized areas because that's the areas will need to have on the books of a water quality section in our ordinances and that applies countywide currently so so you mentioned the catchment is that but does that bring that back up on the on the radar now but over over here and yeah well that is outside of the urban ised area that is one of the type of treatment mechanisms that you can do about you know we have the agricultural upcountry people throw stuff in the gulches including cars and animals and whatnot and that comes down through into the urban side some of it some of it of course comes down in my district and miss cochran's district how do we how can we mitigate that i guess because we're talking about this is just going to happen in the urban areas yeah i mean that you're bringing up a really big issue for my county i mean that's that's going to be one of the the major things that we look at because when they do that urbanized area boundary when you think about it where the water comes into that boundary from upcountry that's one of our points of compliance and so yeah having mechanisms for enforcement to when we see something coming in to go up and stop it i think that's a big part of the you thank you for being here department i guess in line with this the culture is questions is i think if you can explain it a bit more as to how the department now provides for the adequate storm water control is as you try to mitigate the i guess adverse don't stream impact so what are you doing to d that   for the main on the can't combine sewers fortunately we don't have that so we have our own pipes they have their pipes as far as i know there is no cross connection but our you know our current activities we deal with construction be in peace so for construction activities no matter where they're located we have best management practices that we first review and then enforce and modify as we go based on say conditions and that's an ongoing activity that d s a subdivision office regulates so that's one of those things that we're currently doing as you mentioned earlier we have these  post construction b m p so after it's built and this is all relatively new how do we take the water off of that site and send it through something like a mention the target example that helps clean it up as we go that's relatively new we're just implementing it and currently doesn't require any enforcement is basically it's in force by design if you have a good enough design in a works well that's fine but the the new regulations as i understand it we're going to have to enforce that so many people though have to go of things happening over the years so that's an example of here's something we were doing and now we're going to do so differently the maine and so this system in the streets is something that  we do now we may have to do differently right the street sweeping may have to be on a more regular basis and document what we pick up which is not something we currently do our main it's of our system instead of being looked at primarily a volume like is it plugged or is about to get plug we got a storm coming let's go deal with it more regular maintenance schedule and looking for water quality issues rather than just is it getting a position where it might cause a back up because my understanding that what you've just presented it we're going to self in force to comply and then at some point report report such compliance to the state or the federal are we subject to civil complaints too or at least civil claims that basically say we're not in compliance with these so called new water quality standards or standards that are that we are supposed to be complying with i mean try to walk me through that who who who does the enforcement it sounds as  county goes in and reports or self and self reports and there is no one really from the department of health or from the federal side that comes in and verifies that explain my as best i can my understanding and so we would need ordinances that say you can illicitly discharge to our system right ranging from i want to clean up my radiator and just open up the radiator dump it out in a storm drain i don't have anything on the books now ok i'd like to have something on the books that says we can regulate that so if we see it we can we can enforce it so that the enforcement action just for the county ok right meanwhile the state department health has a permit with us which they audit from time to time to see are you doing these things right ok analysts a discharge organism congratulations what are you been doing yes staff ok what kind of complaints you've been receiving or what kind of vets to geishas have you been performing to find these illicit discharge might so at that point i think we have we potential could be exposed to not complying with the permit right in the palace that could ensue from not complying with that permit so there's i guess different compliance levels here is more towards here in my county and the state is with us as complying with the whole overall permit conditions ok so if there's a say got to be peter for me i'm sorry to repeat that for me oh i'm sorry you mentioned earlier something about working with existing organizations and even non profits can you elaborate on what those are so there are a number of non profits on the island that are very interested in storm water pollutants getting to the ocean in particular protecting coral reef exciter that want to work with this within this program and assist the county and public education in outreach in clean up days at the beach or in the gold things like that we're and looking for all of all of the above nonprofit organizations to team with the county public private partnership and certain components of this program ok well i'm looking at the concern about how we're going to pay for all this and what i'm worried about is you know as a staunch nonprofit person with a lot of experience nonprofits generally can bring manpower also looking for funding to do what it is that they do so i get a little worried when we start looking at them as partners we need people they're going to bring money as well as people that will bring them power so it's complicated this is a major major expense and major effort i'm i'm beginning to understand what a big deal it is i get worried as we go through i don't know what it is i keep losing my voice everything's understaffed that means we're going to have to put in a lot of money to hire people and scary but i do see that you know this is something we're going to have to do and my last question is what is  timeline associated with complaints here how much time do we have to get all of this in place before we start looking at fines which we don't deserve that's even more expensive have currently and feel free to read this at your leisure and your staff and that was the first thing we had to do and actually we had i think by time we got the permit to a guinea the plan we had l eight months which necessitated the need to get a consult on board really quickly to help us help us do that and so generally as i mentioned earlier these permits are three year deals and so at each  is no line in the sand what we expect is after this first permit term is over and a new one kicks in we expect additional regulation and audits from them so what they've done is rather than coming in and audit us right away they came in and did a sort of an audit and non compliance audit where they sat down and looked at what we do and then they gave us some recommendations for how to get the the program up and running for the first three years permit for the n p t s yeah we did i think we were notified first that we you know met the criteria of the fifty thousand population and then there was questions as to whether we finally general permit file under their general permit or a specific permit so that one kind of back and forth for a while before we settled on coming under their general permit and then how long did it take to get the permit approve there are two it was actually relatively fast  incurring fines or anything of that nature yes mr couch thank you madam chair to elaborate on what miss by said was saying once we start getting you need new ordinances signs on certain things for as you were talking about the illicit dumping those can you can do it any time that i'm assuming that would be in this committee and soon as you get the language we would work on it are you working on those right away or you know yes we are that's part of the responsibilities of our consultants come up with the language to look at sample language used and a lot of other jurisdictions gotcha ok about projects that we are in the process of ok or have just okayed for instance the six hundred homes a and b in north  can we get those since they haven't started working on them can we get those in on that or the one that the affordable homes the tool n h that just is going to council now would those be incorporated in this oh those projects are actually under our current ordinances for construction b m p and post construction be in peace so to the greed of those ordinances get tightened up over the years as we learn more then we review that you know in light of the existing barnes's that we have and i guess any potential changes so that that changes in practice i think is going to yield a lot of great benefits in the future i guess my concern too is are the developers aware there's going to come down or is this something that's going to be sprung on them well like that's hard to say i would say in general you have developers that follow these  cleaning done sooner rather than later i just hate to see what it would do to some this these affordable projects that we're putting in right now i think they do need to be aware that they're going to have to throw at that extra level of cleanliness to their water coming out you know if i could add it really comes down the design there sometimes simple measures that can be done typically they have retention basins so how that retention basin fills up and how it all unfolds are opportunities to implement rather straightforward post construction be n p s at least in our current ordinance and you will be working with them on that as they come through the process right e system comes down hill and just the county system that we're just going to let go in the future we're going to have them address that since it enters our system version and that happens all over including obviously a lot i city so we're going to look at that because some of them are certainly grandfathered in some degree but if they make modifications or expansions to their system it probably have to be looked at and then on these do you have some kind of a i mean if you have a hard time having the other party agree to a new more you are adjustments is there a legal mechanism for you to force them into a parks that and you know i'm assuming you have some way to get them to participate national or from what i just heard from john is that sounds like their permit requires them to work with us which is great thank you very much area and i know it first came up with our department of transportation ms johnson weiner was in here and in order to agree with that they would continue to get these funding and if so and now this kicked this into action because we went and agreed that we wanted to be considered a nice so we can get these federal highway funding for transportation department so i don't know if the time if it was a opt in or out thing but i know because we're discussing is this going to be beneficial or not but in the department of transportation aspect it seemed to have a good fit and that we it's a good you know it was it was a benefit now it's fallen upon your department because we've determined this to be this urbanized area to kick this and this for program into action yet that decision for a d o t was because funny dean was to be gotten but this isn't with funding here and so now we're slapped and which is all a good thing of don't get me wrong of course i want to see these great b m p is in place and and implemented but that big dollar amount cost is going to come with it is sort of something we need to deal with it is going to be a challenge so just training or you know recall the discussion in that area which is now a trickles down to e and this clean water won both use the same census bureau formula they use that urbanized area and so they're tow totally different statutes in federal law and yet they both reach towards the with the consultants to your department of consultants which is kind of a little bit of what the next item is on the agenda the contract for the consultants and there is the like timelines forecasted  proposed timelines year one two and three so are we are already in year one and two because i think for the this is for the whole this permitting the permit that we have existing  hers is like we're going to do this that's for the permit we have existing we have an annual report due in january two thousand and sixteen which will be our second annual report ok so in the schedules one two are in in process year one into mostly done with your one work we're getting into year to work right now ok we should be able to draw the circle of the fifty thousand which makes sense according to our general plan and in our community plans we shouldn't be dictated by the feds on how development and quote is going to go by there but cherry circle i think that is not the case of way we're getting much more victories in the districts against the agency currently than in them in the past so i would say we should not give up on our ability to continue to control our land  area on the land mass but the practices that are being proposed will go no matter where because there are good things for us to be implementing whether it's just because west now he's not in this urbin  area projects continue on and there's these type of parts is need to be adhered to so that's i think the beauty in the sense where we don't need to just focus on the part you know to a way who area in implementing this but it will go county wide which i'm very happy to hear but again more cost to it too so members any further need for discussion on this it's not going to be it's not over we're just starting really the discussion and  so my recommendation is to defer this generation's thank you very much the next item is i am thirty five and it is an amendment to the contract for a miss for permitting and stormwater management plan and that is contract five four seven zero dash janks is a fairly large engineering consulting firm i think primarily working in hawaii in the west coast and they have a lot of experience with m s force throughout the region that they operate they went through the b s or quality base selection process for the consultants and you know based on their experience and their ability to commit to getting the plan done in time we selected them subsequently as we rolled into the next round of program compliance again we know we get limited staff we could do some of the work ourselves but the majority of it we need to have a consultant so i consoled works of the division was pleased with the product and delivery and response and kennedy janks and entered into a contract amendment to expand the scope and go towards the next next two years worth of compliance so that's currently where we get i think we had one the other men been coming up because they have been doing some of the third party reviews i mentioned earlier but that's that's my all of you thank you director so is there a budget terry funds ok you're just expanding the scope of their work and the funds distributed will cover that yeah we are taking the we were pleased with the work that they did  i think there's six or seven sections within this particular document and that school takes us through about mid way through year two so i mean we can go through him line by line on to desk for so so we have measurements that didn't need to achieve for the department then yes but agreed upon and any issues they responsible  yeah we yes we haven't we haven't gotten there but i think the county would still be reet responsible i don't think that would be responsible under business type as a foreign profit corporation do you know why they would be listed as a foreign profit corporation mr chair i'm sorry madam chair  the generally and i don't know the exact details of kennedy jenks but i in my understanding is a foreign corporation is generally one that's not incorporated in the state of hawaii so it may be incorporated in california or or even delaware but i think when they say thank you mr white you need further discussion needed here members ok so my recommendation for this is also to defer and i'm sure we'll have more discussion to come and it looks like we have