fourteen years after that time he paid contributions to teacher retirement system for fourteen years t r s accepted those contributions for fourteen  sent yearly audit statements and and presumably invested that money you gain from that fourteen year during that entire period mr b you did not see  one objection one notice not being that his service credit for his job as a local court nater would not be counted for t r s did any of those notices include disclaimer langridge there was disclaimer language on some of the notices that that was an accident and particularly after he made the decision to retire in the winter of twenty thirteen he received a customize the most for summary judgment and this is a reasonable position to take while there's a disclaimer that this may be an estimate and there might be variation in here and there so you know some math that's not correct it's not contributions and fourteen years of service for service credit would be wiped up now what about when he made the transition to the local five zero four ordinator yes there was some conversation between him and refresh my memory it's the organization that was the pass through that's i have to be right yes right there was some conversation between him and a gentleman from the past through organization about well you can still possibly do  the american federation of teachers which is the national team which is the state they came up with the idea of creating this position for the four for like county and so as part of that the scotian it was decided that impression that this was a pastor he didn't he didn't work for you know it's not it's that is the its our argument and our stringent belief that he was employed by the f t and i can explain  the regulations don't really take into consideration as to how these union operates how they work this is this is one big happy family so to speak and sort of say that there's a cookie cutter designation all state  latter vocal the the i have to be and they have to but it's all one lap so to speak and they're all working together towards that now mr mchugh and being employed by the act that he received his paycheck the i r t then also supported this program through grants going forward after that and the i f c also it was necessary for the i have to interview mr mchugh in deciding to hire him for the position and the i  ble and i'm i'm talking specifically about the fall out so versus t r s case and that in a sense there was a music teacher who was hired by a private private entity who then went to work for the school and there was some arguments in that case that well first off i think the circumstances are completely different in that case the music teacher basically conceded that he wasn't entitled to service credit and he wanted this the supreme court to bend the rules for that so i think that's what the case but in that he was employed about so it wasn't in that case the argument was well even though i was paid for paid by the private entity the end of the school was to pay the fines and therefore wormy the lines here as the duties of the local state federal because they're all set as i said before all same it's all part of the same hierarchy and this situation provides the perfect we have now the board relied on the constitution is to reject this argument that there are one you know they're not one organization so to speak not one big happy  family and they relied on the constitution but then they went outside the record just to support their decision and i don't think this isn't significant because while they mentioned and quoted they  for the fourth to then go outside to record and cites and if they can block quotes to support their decision that that's that and rejecting that argument this would be a can to a jury trial  constitutions and again if if if it was in the constitution why was it necessary then for the board's go off to the websites to support their their decision and you know in regards to the argument that the border is the title of take traditional notice they would under proper circumstances but we are you know as is this term that you was entitled to notice that the board was going to do that and also in regard to some of the case law cited by the t r s and their brief and i'm speaking specifically about the innovative garage case and the people versus our case you know people innovative garage involved a sufficient contact our contacts outside the record to support their decision in this regard the order acted improperly and ultimately deny mr mchugh his right to process now also the difficulty historically considers to be statewide teacher organizations there's no standards there's no regulations there's there's nothing to put anybody i notice that only the i f c and the the i eat a the illinois education association are considered statewide teacher organizations by t r s and when we asked the various witnesses at depositions regarding the t r s the definition we w will they weren't able to provide us with any place this was written down and that legislature just the sight of that only the identity and the i a e a or state wide teacher organizations and that should have been that why isn't it in the statu and sorrow there is no criteria to guard to guarantee our ass there's no standards for guidelines or anything regarding what specifically a statewide teacher organization looks like there's be considered a statewide teacher union well is it reasonable to conclude that you're only a statewide organization if you're working for individual state wide duties specifically mandated by the i have t and working towards that common goal and so i think that's where the again this goes to the difficulties of the statute and the regulations boy had originally intended to come and argue that this case is scary and i'm going to ask you to speak up just a little bit that microphone does not amplify it simply helps us hopefully get a good recording apologize your honor i always make that mistake and i lean toward it thank you so the board had originally intended to argue that this is a case study in unwarranted assumptions and a failure to check on pension eligibility and that may be true of mr mchugh himself but on reviewing a record there is one document in particular that jumped out plain smith who was director of field operations for the illinois federation of teachers was one of the architects of the lake county federation of teachers coordinator position and he was also the architect of the administrators agency agreement the so called half through scheme or agreement by which mr mchugh salary and benefits were paid and if every one nine hundred ninety nine he wrote an e mail to the lake county you federation of teachers steering committee saying i know you're about to select somebody who's going to occupy this role and here's what we're going to do for you and that's what that's where he set out the administrative agency agreement he announced that the i to would act as the cajun issuing paychecks and dispersing benefits and he declared that it was essential that the program be structured in that way and he explained why and i apologize for quoting but this really is worth a  it's page see one ninety seven of the record the most likely prospects for the position will come from within the l c f t administration the program through the i f t will also guarantee continuation of the employee in their current state pension plan the avenue to this type of benefit cannot be duplicated by the lake county federation of teachers in reality the program offerings insurance and then if pension benefits are probably the most attractive part of the overall plan there is simply no other way to achieve them the board sumit that mitt glenn smith knew full well that whoever held positions of lake county federation of teachers coordinator would not be eligible for a state pension and it appears at this past year agreement was crafted to get around that inconvenient fact after all the state pension particular get your one which this is is quite attractive and the fact that the illinois federation of teachers was fronting mchugh's salary invent that and getting reimbursed on the back end had the effect of misleading t r s for fourteen years because all t r s could see was that these contributions were coming in under the illinois federation of teachers employer name under the illinois federation of teachers unique employer number contributions were properly being submitted until he applied to retire and it conducted the audit that it conducts when anyone in the system retires and they tried to match up the salary with his various positions because kind of ironic to have a doctrine of ethical stoppel invoked in the briefs terrorist was not trying to hide anything from anybody instead material information was being  it is also plain that the three labor organizations are not one in the same the record establishes that the american federation of teachers the illinois federation teachers and the lake county federation of teachers all have their own constitutions their own bylaws each can sue and be sued each can acquire property each could enter into an agreement in agreements and each may have said this already has its own governing board and that is in the record there is unrebutted testimony in the record that although the local organizations are offered a generous amount of assistance from i have to they can all decline it and many do they all can work independently and they do even though they share common goals and coordinate on certain project share common goals and they're into related do you do you proposing councils representation that mr meet you had to do things at the direction of the illinois federation of teachers i have to it's written actually into the job description that extensive travel throughout the county on daily basis what are the duties organizing at all levels within the local coordination of new members local wide expand executive committee so the fact that he coordinate with high achiever on certain things is not dispositive and the board had ample evidence in the record to conclude that they were separate organizations and he was not and i have to employ that he is the claims committees recommended a decision which was adopted bade him by the board and on those pages in addition to the website information the committee was discussing the that the person that was hired for this position had knowledge of the structure which you suggest with the facade there is there were no specific cre he testified that he didn't know what that language meant in that you know and he testified that wasn't on my radar screen what i have i had to do that whether it's about what their eligibility would be there is no evidence in the record that anybody contacted c r s in the first instance to make sure that this arrangement and this job were to arrest pension eligible so that's something he would have been able to obtain an opinion on absolutely there's a toll free number there's a website there are a million ways to contact us and they're very helpful that's that that's the point they're going to help people navigate the system but if but they have to be asked to do it ordinary commonplace easily understood words undefined terms are given their ordinary meaning you can even go to the dictionary and the pantry code isn't constitutionally deficient because there is a definition of statewide and even if there intelligence who would fail to understand that no you can't park on the streets in the city tonight citywide it's it's it's just that plain and it's interesting too because for the l c f t coordinator position the job posting uses terms like well you're going to do such and such county wide and you're going to do searches of local y if these terms are so difficult to understand why would they be in the job description in the description duties in the first mistakes or mis advice that was given in this case the board would not feel entirely comfortable concluding that those taxes were correctly improperly withheld but again it was merely one fact for the board to consider the board also had explicit testimony and documentary evidence that those were not creditable earnings and when there's more than one reasonable inference that could be drawn the board cannot have committed error by selecting one of them could we start out by act i want to ask you this question with respect to the information you're saying the court relied upon that was not a record is there anything in addition to what's contained in y your opening grief on page twenty three where you talk about that the l c f t is has one primary governing body and the elected delegates from each of the twenty two councils invite monthly meetings to set policy and direct s making assumptions as to what len smith's intentions were what his motivations were is are all items that were not in the record is that she was not taken she has no way of knowing what he what i have t benefits there was it was based on the fact that i have tea with a statewide organization and then he contributed and not only did he contribute his own portion of the payment for the t r s he also contributed to the urteen years and he received statements he received member statements he received a custom of benefits and nobody said anything and now to come back and try to say well this is mr  comments that well you've gone back to work well i would submit so that your honors there when you're ready to retire after thirty three years going back to work that doesn't that doesn't make anybody feel better ok and there's a damage here because he expected a tire and he wanted to retire and he was a title a tire and he could retire and while he might be entitled and we you know we we don't know what his contributions or what he's entitled to receive if there's a refund the question is much more valuable than what those contributions are and the say we're just going to refund his his the money to him and whatever else he's entitled to which we don't know because we've asked for that information never been provided that information  then the pension is what he was paying for and he's now not entitle to a least fourteen year service credit for that and there's a fundamental injustice when someone is ready to retire and they're unable to retire that