good morning on earth that may please the court i am james old rosenberg representing the appellant this is not a complicated case compared to some of the others you heard this is quite possibly the simplest i view one issue but ability has been determined here by the judge the issue becomes in reality how much is needed to reach the level of persecution five if you allow me to do a very brief summary and i don't think i'll use my whole ten minutes i have a young lady who comes from a family that was part of the diplomatic corps under the merchant of the ministration that would have been karen the martian who was the last communist leader in armenia she's multilingual speaks french she was in france as a representative of an organization that deals with the exchange students now it's not a government organisation corruption but it doesn't come right out and say oh she goes back home and several months later she's called to task on it you know armenia by their own internal security forces she's interviewed she explains the statement several months later i think that just as it's about six months later they started interviewing her by the police department it's a some special unit i think the whole department six she's interviewed six times first five times while there's no testimony of the effect she's questioned repeatedly and toward the last time she says to sign papers some of which relates to a criminal charge criminal conduct by her supervisor and there's some discussion about missing files of the amount as i remember is about three two or three hundred dollars she refuses to sign the papers she is at the last hearing there's contact i can say she was beaten the judge said the polar air to the point that she was almost to tears and when she leaves the last time she's basically told stay around we're not done and that russians were not told why and i'm not going to speculate why i don't think that's appropriate she is active in the store going to zation i don't even know if it's volunteer work i presume it might be a paid job she it starts to make you suspicious such as being punished for having said something the government doesn't like you know i gree with you but i mean it's explained what my concern is and maybe you can address it is that could it seems to me from this record you could find that this is persecution but you could also find it isn't and if you're in that posture on her we're kind of in the past of reviewing it is there are substantial evidence in the record and we have these cases like no ballou coup which seems to be awfully close to this case where you know when you take that plus firing from your job usually isn't enough being pushed in this case let's say pushed in if kicked and beaten or kicked and hitting isn't enough i'm not saying what happened to her was nice and i think is appropriate but why doesn't this circumstance that occurred here fall within our that says it doesn't compel our finding the problem area we have and i agree with your question because i've asked it also why isn't there more as they get back to our good day they said they would they basically said don't  not done and the anyone though that i gathered out of it was they were conducting an investigation i don't know if it was real or one that was being caught the biggest problem we run into and it's a problem relating to the conditions in the country of armenia as well as many of the other former soviet nations is the protections that we're accustomed to is not a fact that we almost take for granted don't exists there in the united states if i were to say the bush administration and certain operations was less than honest in some communities i'd be hailed as a hero in our mania if i said that about the president of armenia i would probably be shot and armenia purports to be a democracy they have a constitution that says or democracy but their operation appears to be a little less than democratic now the question is how far would a young lady what does she have to put up with i know from the record she once of the police department that's an i think it was internal affairs six times you know a short period of time the number itself middle east me rather suspicious i know that's really the concern is that the standard isn't for past persecution it's one that you have to pinpoint specific incidents of persecution regrettably it's not one of those things where if there might be persecution but it hasn't happened yet you get to apply for asylum is kind of a s pushing the court to move the board behind me so i'm over it and i might add this is not the first time i've been before this court arguing on light facts but i take the case with the facts that are dealt to me in this particular instance as a say the strongest suggestion or statement that i can make is she's called back six times the last time there's actually something which i would conclude would be the least some degree of violence pulling of the hair the other five times i can only suggest because i can't find the record is that the question is appear to have gotten at least the same with not more aggressive the question does she have to wait until they hit her in the face she leave after she's afraid they're going to hit her in the face and doesn't want to come to the united states with a broken nose and that's really where it lies i would propose to the court that in england and i use that specifically as an example because i view it as a democracy this is not enough you know i mean you know where they're violating human rights i think this might be enough i don't think a woman has to wait until she is physically abused and i'm not talking about the sexual matter i'm talking about being at or injured now you may think well that would be much better if if she were i have a stronger case and i bring i don't think that's the standard i think when the threat is there and it's building and the person reaches the point where they realize if i go back or they call me back they're going to put me in jail or something bad is going to happen because of i've s explain that when she was first called to explain it about six months prior to the police involvement and that's all i helf as to whether it's appropriate or not this is why i'm grateful you people wear the black robes and i just  because i don't like splitting the babies have for the attorney general in this case the immigration judge determined that based on all of the things that happened to this petitioner in armenia she did not turn past persecution  as the judge pointed out this court case law indicates that being interrogated for short periods of time and being kicked during some of those interrogations have been found to be not past persecution well you're out of the country reports do indicate that there are problems there but there's nothing specifically that mentions her or her specific incident instance i mean supposedly she was sought after because she was a member of this nonprofit group statement i mean she indicated herself that everything is secret in that she can't find out who gave the order or why and that's i believe in the record at fifty one brave woman when well in your honor i mean that may be the case that there's no indication that that anything she was never beaten or anything else during these interrogations her hair was pulled but that was the extent of any harm to our which i believe out of this case law would indicate that she has not been persecuted in the past and would not warrant a finding that  she has a well founded fear of returning her parents are in russia yes i believe in moscow