is the thing that troubles me most about this case is it did not seem like he was telling the truth about not getting in touch with his mother but actually i think it was not telling the truth on a couple  allow me to put this in the correct perspective of i have at this time when i was not a trial counsel i have an eighteen year old child and i use that were deliberately went from secondary school what we consider high school straight into the military for two years and i think he said this team days that's where most of the problems happened there are some problems that happen afterwards this is not what you call a well streetwise kid this is a person who didn't get a hold of his mother which by the way still bothers me but i'm still presuming that the father had something to do with that although the record is blank there would be great if he said so if you'd said i had this big fight with my mother and she said i'm never speaking  again and i thought i'm never speaking you again actually i didn't interpret it that i but he didn't say that not thinking like that he said he gave these first he said oh i can't find her then he said she's in a village in russia and there's no phone then he said we can't arrange your phone calls because when she's there i'm not there when i'm there she's not there and the planning that gets askew and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to us in the united states he could writer from from the us i just couldn't figure it out the parts on this that confuse me i see forest for subject matters one is the same one you're looking out except my analysis of the father's possible involvements is a little different than yours i suspect he supported the c administration that was the party in the person who's now president was president than if you and probably disapproved of his son's and his wife's involvement against the administration and basically stop the but i don't have that if you acknowledge that he's given false testimony and server old perspectives i think you said at the beginning i did say it why isn't the i j a entitled to conclude that this is not a credible person your honor the false testimony that the i j you specifically hangs on this is what sticks in my mind relates to a conference my clients had with an officer of the armenian government after he was released from the army and which he gave testimony as to events he had witnessed because that particular government official was investigating those events and then afterwards when this gentleman was assassinated and i think was a short time after the interview an security police what he kept calling k g b which by the way in armenia doesn't exist it's internal security we're asking him about the interviews he was reluctant to even tell them and he denied he had a meeting and judge  i going into the office and going to the office doesn't make any sense for us but i haven't been twenty or twenty one a long time a twenty one year old this might make sense at this point in time he was out of the army which he entered on the eighteenth birthday where he stayed in the army two years i think again fifteen days now from off by few days i apologize and then he was discharged are released however you want to look at it we've got a twenty year old who's not sophisticated he's high school educated are the freedoms and protections you and i not only are custom to but we rely on them don't exist why should we believe that he in particular as opposed to anyone living in a  country and is in danger considering we don't know what he said that's true well we know he was hospitalized from a beating because nobody questioned that during the trial and he came up with medical records we are told and i wish i knew where his mother was because i'd love to get my hands on the articles that his mother had to leave the country into russia which by the is a very big country as to where the mother is i i'm not going to pretend i'm not a published articles right your honor published articles in a small women's rights magazine doesn't mean that i you can go to the public library and hold them alt they don't put it on the net not at that point in time i tried and by the way items that can be put on the net can also be taken off the us there are ways to do it in the government in armenia and i speak from what i know of today again i did not represent this gentleman when this once trial government is very capable wrong but the off the wall too to find your guy credible on a couple of the items that judge martin relied on such as among other things this high military position he had as a operator because that's what i interpreted as i think he had a better half dozen people under him running radar answered the telephone sits in the transcript that i was running a regime that did a whole lot of dirty stuff sick i was running of little mafia social club and i keep an eye on who's running the telephones in and i'm not going to pretend i'm a military expert i'm not you know i have some experience with the u s military which is relatively clean sometimes  but this is a guy that answering phones and transferring them i don't think that's a big discretionary position i didn't ask my question very well what i meant to say is in order for us to reverse this i j we'd have to find that no i j could have made the credibility decision that he made i will reasonable person could could disbelieve your guy and after you come up and say the is a lousy liar i'm having a hard time finding how we can say that no reasonable person could could find your your client incredible or your honor under certain circumstances as was presented in some of the cases that was cited sometimes there's reasons why the lies relating to the interview after the discharge from the military is quite simply that he was at the interview asked if he had some protection from anyone taking retribution against him for giving out quote military secrets and i don't see them as military secrets i do see them as political embarrassment to the people in power and he was told yes well this protector was assassinated i'd probably lie to him because i don't have anyone to keep me intact under those circumstances in another country this is why i can't sit here and tell you he didn't lie it's obvious to me on some areas he did and i won't insult the court by saying otherwise but i will tell you that under certain circumstances telling a lie is better than being killed and under certain circumstances to protect one's ability to stay alive if you do exaggerate i frankly agree with you on that and i think you make a very strong point on on that that's why i focused on the mother because i couldn't see any and wanting other than this then just making up stories that would explain that the only argument i could make as to the mother and i am speculating that i want to court to be aware  that he states that his contact with his mother and i used the word contact loosely is through his father and it becomes apparent to me because the father's having no trouble in armenia they are chasing them or at least we're not told they are not chasing them because of what the mother did they're not chasing them because the sons activity i have to presume the father is a supporter of the political administration presently in power and they're not bothering him because he's not fighting with them and he most likely does not approve of the acts of the son or his wife who's now in russia but that doesn't necessarily make my client lying on a just a limb and it's a little that my thinking right i mean it makes sense to me too that the reason the father lived happily ever after in armenia is he had a domestic dispute with the mother and dropped the dime on earth something like that that but i still don't understand why the kid safely in america wouldn't tell the truth about why he's not contacting his mother i don't have a sophisticated i'm use your word kid because it's probably accurate and i you know again and some of these things i'm reasonably certain he's not told the whole truth with some reason and the unfortunate part is you do reach a period where in the minds of a twenty twenty one year old that still ranges out when you left he starts to get confused as to what becomes the truth and what is not i do believe the basic  statements he has made and i think i'm now over my time according to the red lights of stocking if your sins the basic statements he's made have a very strong string of truth in it but there's been some exaggerations and there have been on some areas what i'm positive are all right lies that he did to protect himself as to whether an individual can lie and that should get a benefit from it well if i was talking to my daughter and i have young i have one young child lost i'd say no you're right on the truth even if the results are bad but we're in a country where that's produced protection for us if i were living in armenia under the circumstances this young man was doubt that he wasn't telling the truth and tries to offer explanations based on his age well consider one day when asked questions to try to explain the various inconsistent and illogical connections in his testimony mr hardy and did not try to state that while he didn't understand because he was still young and his issues that were identified by the immigration judge which  testimony were serious issues with respect to his mother it makes little sense that someone who he obviously respected whose opinion he sought out when he had problems within the military as i'm regular basis at justify that there are some of the arguments about the lies that petitioners counsel makes that strike me as good as long as you're in a foreign country and the politics are miserable tangled web  you better to steve along with everybody else and when you don't know exactly what the people asking you questions you know and you know it could be real dangerous to give the wrong answers making up a lot of fairy tales way make a lot of sense so i wasn't entirely persuaded by the i j a saying well he should not told the k g b his careless name for the local security people this and it made no sense to tell him that give michaela many kind of fairy tales just to get him off his back and avoid trouble it's more lies when he can no longer get in trouble and get beaten up or put in jail or something that because of the circumstances that make sense but why did you only lie regarding a factor that could be proven especially when you were aware that the group he identified as the k g b knew about his meeting with the deputy minister of present a fair number of stupid people that when i did criminal defense and when they'd finally get pinned down and ask my office were wired if they that them the real true answer when they gave it to me was i don't know finding in this case there is no evidence which has been of identified which compels a contrary finding to the decision made by the i j but you just counsel has even stated that he's lied and there were a number of lies and he was a bad liar even if that's the case there's nothing that he's explained or identified in the record which would question that i ever spread ability find perhaps he has circumstances circumstances effort to communicate with his mother notwithstanding any of this other arguments with respect to his exchanges with the k g b it makes no sense that he changed from being communicate with his mother and making every effort to do sell and then all of a sudden stopping once he was free to try to make efforts to communicate with his mother and his explanations are simply that she was at work and he missed her calls and was never any effort to actually schedule time even when in contrast to the fact that she tried to send letters whenever possible and the relationship with his mother all that important to us ivana because he has testimony is that in part some of the problems he had were related to his mother's publications criticizing the military and the other thing as importance because he stopped her assistance because he was concerned about the problem the k g b that they perceive him as someone who would compromise their military secrets as that was the case then why did they make no real serious effort to secure him once he was hospitalized there was no guard there lie about it was that she could not lie because they wouldn't believe him and that they would be able to find out well that makes no sense because he himself stated that there was no one else in the room that it was a private meeting so if anything he could have lied about