central oregon following a fire the post fire logging plans in this case fundamentally violated the balance created by the northwest course plan by aggressively targeting the largest trees that are most valuable to wildlife while leaving heavy fuel loading in the form of small diameter material across the landscape the specific and enforceable standards of the northwest forest plan are specifically designed and implemented to prevent exact type of project this project will have a dramatic impact on wildlife habitat by targeting the largest trees and will leave heavy fuel loading in small diameter materials across the landscape this is a case of first impression and the interpretation of the northwest course plan set forth by the four service in this case threatens to undermine the critical protections of the plan for lasix national reserves across the pacific northwest what degree of language the northwest force plan states that the standards and guidelines are intended per to intended to provide specific management direction including actions which are prohibited and i see a lot of wonderful or services interpretation if we read the language should in the absence of that language which prefaces the discussion of the standard and guidelines those standards and guidelines become meaningless because simply because they use the word how those guidelines are optional for the forest service to apply a northwest force plan however specifically states that they are intended to prohibit certain actions and require other actions service has not previously issued any guidance or interpretation of the standards and guidelines of the northwest force plan that we might be able to rely on and apply to broadly to each case in their circumstance or has been no general expression of interpretation rather the force to risk or misinterpretation to defend a decision previously made in advance i think it's generally fair to say that judges are very reluctant to go back into managing the way forests are run may i suggest that you need to tell us what is it that the forest service did that violated the plan certainly your honor the northwest forest plan requires host fire logging and done the exact opposite it has implemented a plan that will have the devastating impacts to the habitat of them a toy slate's exceptional reserve the analysis in the f b i s documents that prefers an log denser stance in fact this project will have a negative impact on habitat for each and every single one of those seven cavity nesting species so the forest service cannot and those are the right species to be looking at our point is that the forest service analysis states in the f b i s that this project will degrade thousands of acres of habitat for each one of those that's correct the forest service claims this project will benefit some species and will hurt others he says in fact with the analysis shows is that this project will hurt every single  will harm others but in fact if we look at the analysis which is contained in the excerpt of record at page three fifty three for instance the project will degrade more than four thousand acres of habitat for the lewises with packer a thousand acres of habitat for the black backed woodpecker and that trend is the same for each and every single one of the seventy have a nesting species or service looked at as indicators of why we say that the forest service is fundamentally violated the balance created by the northwest course point let me just test a little bit where you were doing more than simply disagreeing with their conclusion what you're saying if i understand you correctly you that their own analysis does not support their conclusion is that what you're saying that's correct your honor for service biolog consider the data that we've been discussing at page three fifty three of the excerpt of record where it details and provides quantified predictions of habitat suitability and the forest service biologists looked at that information and concluded that the plan will result in a decrease in structure primarily material greater than twelve inches diameter breast height as a result of this current species abundance may decrease were species may be displac and that construction of a plant has as the result of degrading habitat for every single species looked at by the forest service so this logging plant fundamentally violates the balance created by the northwest for types of snags based either on the size diameter breast tight extent of damage resulting from the fire but must develop some criteria to help the public in the agency predict which types of sna recommendations focused on the wrong management objective in this case across the landscape so she w p in the other plaintiffs had requested a different alternative that what is locust on smaller diameter material to identify how this project would impact fire risk as compared to a restoration approach to the lan provide economic benefits for the local community say when we set forth an alternative that was focused primarily on force health the forest service responded by saying it wouldn't meet an economic need in reality there are good sound economic reasons to consider restoration as opposed to targeting the largest snags on the landscape i have about a minute left i'd like to s a different view on that very specific point well your honor i think the record reflects that the forest service conducted a very careful analysis and of the end passes this project would have and in fact retained the largest large amount of snags we feel it's important to point out that this is a very conservative salvage operation that provides for salvage of only a quarter of the burn temblor twelve thousand of the a no large diameter trees will be altered with the exception of those that are hazard trees along the road this was a large catastrophic fire and the conditions that are there now the record indicates are not in this case that many about seventy five percent of the snags created by the fire are expected to fall within within this one within a short period of time by replanting and re harvesting  the focus here and the forest service is probably properly focused on moving the resource condition back to its desired a condition over the long term and so we to the forest service has taken into account alternative to would actually replant more than alternative one and therefore we could result in more snags over the long term as trees grow and then naturally die and become taxes  to large catastrophic fires in the sense times with respect to impacts on me and also snags just as an example the positive would be between fifteen and twenty five require that the forest service to retain any set level of tags greater than a certain size it says should and it doesn't provide any numeric requirement or any mr winters criticism that the forest service a den of hard degradation in specific categories of species his they also show that there would be adequate habitat under alternative to you as well and just to step back for a minute and describe the analysis it does show that the analysis shows that certain species of what packers prefer certain areas with you know snag densities of a certain size and the analysis does disclose that there will be impacts of that habitat but compared to the no action greater than the fifty percent tolerance level and we're talking about of there you know a decent sized project that's not very substantial you we regard that as an offset against the degradation is over if you're suggesting an offset well point out of this is a short term this is an analysis of sort of right now the present condition which is not a sustainable condition the condition is there is heavy fuel loading and the real ball has to look further afield and further in the future and when the stacks begin to fall which they are predicted to do in the short term this difference is going to balance out i mean it's going to the long term difference is not term they'll be lost but in the long term there are more likely to that trees have them grow and then arts rags will form when there is another pirates never having or trying to understand why you forest service has retained a significant number of large snags vest we are the fire was an eighteen thousand acre fire twelve thousand acres knows no large snags are going to be  altered with the exception of those that are has or has or trees along roads there is an abundance of snag habitat created by the i really fire this is a conservative project if it plan requires the retention of all snags above a certain diameter sized northwest forest plan does not require that it does not rise to that it provides for the forests to focus on retaining stacks that are likely to per for harvest is for fuel future fuel conditions and that is a reason here in this case and it set forth in the in the record in some detail that these there's heavy fuel loading alister result of the has achieved the balance that is intended by the northwest forest plan the northwest forest plan you are correct your honor does provide for the forest service to focus on habitat and to focus on retaining snacks and the forest service has hundred acres to friends and to the lewis was with her three hundred acres to the block after would have for us now but these these snags are going to fall over time and the difference between the no action alternative and the as the forest service would have us believe well i think that's i think resort to the language of the guidelines those was courts answer to that question first so they mischaracterize our position in saying that be the meaning of the northwest forest plan if that were the case it would not provide for some commercial wood volume remove all it would not explain the fact that salvage can have benefits in terms of wildlife and also in restoring the forest to ideal conditions the northwest forest plan just does not support that interpretation of the player service was not given the authority by congress was it to make legally binding rules if it had been delegated that authority to make legally blind rules i would think great deference would be old and it's not that different is not old but it's a different kind of that if they had the authority to make these legally blind the rules especially in light of the overall priorities set out by congress to preserve the environment so when i ask a question about what kind of reference certainly we on retaining snags and focused on ensuring adequate habitat here this is consistent with the general guidelines that the northwest forest plan sets for and the would you agree with that i would agree with that your honor they do and i think the forest service has fulfilled that here by showing the by doing the analysis that has done looking carefully at the impacts on species and evalu page three fifty nine targeted only trees greater than twelve inches diameter breast height for removal they have specifically targeted the largest trees and so we believe the commercial wood removal is absolutely c