describes a hypothetical person with you puts it is limited education and limits her to routine constant cision making workplace changes you know production that it refers to the fact that it i mean i'm sorry i can't get out of my head to the lucy and ethel scene in i love lucy where the conveyor belts going by and working quickly but it sounds like that's the kind of thing she can't do now because it's too fast you know or you know you can't be required to do x number of actions per hour but these jobs at the location of the expert identifies price marker router libeler do seem to done the other job she did was landscaping or more type work again the same situation where as you know and in the case of lucy and i've used that example repeatedly you know there they have but let's say that for various reasons there's three or four different types of chocolates that are supposed to go into a different box if you you have difficulty cognitively understanding at times where one trouble at a dark chocolate clues across the conveyor line and you have to pause and think now you're completely far behind and you have a problem i think noted that the judge didn't define what he meant by the states in the second hearing but he did define it in the first hearing and i'm just trying to find my note that he indicated at that time that  was going to continually have problems with maintaining more pace so there's going to be a problem she needed to basically differences it's not whether she could do fast paced production or assembly line production it's takes you longer to do task x correct and or her let me indicate i don't know what the outcome is going to be on this if this question is is phrased correctly well the hypothetical that was given of the vocation expert included the work should be routine no consistent decision making or workplace changes no production or pace work rate work and no cost and interaction with other rate work but again it's pace weight work which means work and again that's the point of what the judge to find that s at the time of the first hearing on record page one forty four that is piecework goes where you have got to have fast and frequent with your coworkers depending on keeping a pace they can be key or keep going well that was his statement that the first here so there is if there is a very subtle difference between these but in this case where it is an individual with her problems it is a significant problem so are you arguing that the jobs of price marker router and label provided not to find enough you think you know it's that's the simple question isn't whether or not this was properly defined and whether it's clear so that the vocational expert is clearly oriented to all of her limitations and that's where the it please the court lou hahn on behalf of the commissioner of social security so ms hahn let me just start you where i was ending up the the residual functional capacity description has this critical phrase no a undefined and b if it really is intended to capture the kind of thing the judge menu was talking about the landscaping work or the you know something that i'm calling kind of piece work that once you've done the thing however long it took you to do the thing then you get paid for it and maybe you get paid by us if you don't do as many that day but you can still do it but anyway no pay straight work and then we  identifying price marker router or label or putting stickers or tags on packages that show price delivery route destination it cetera i'm not even sure that fits the definition of no pace rate work i did it it seems to me it is you know any employer is going to say you know we don't want you to sit around all day long and just kind of do what you feel like doing here are the boxes they need to be marked for price you know or here is you know the shipments and you need to get the right routing information on them or what have you that it's very vague and i'm troubled by the vagueness precisely for a person like you see lar well your honor points to the jobs that were identified as example jobs by the vocational x and so i'm assuming given i'm assuming the vocational expert did his work or her work whoever it was and took seriously the limitation to no pace great work and thought that these jobs were not for some reason unexplained to me not pace great jobs and i don't see how that can be if she had wanted a job you know  a landscaper or she wanted a job as you know somebody who sews total bags you know or something and you can sew so many tote bags in a day fine you know look maybe maybe she could do that crafting creating things such as the top bag and these jobs labeling marking routing things basically your honor respectfully all jobs have a goal a mission tasks that someone has to do and know some of the tasks are time sensitive like you've got to do so many things in a day you have to prepare so many letters if you work in the customer complaint center  have to get through a certain amount of work and those jobs which are probably hourly rate jobs have pace expectations built into them whereas the other jobs that we're talking about whether it's landscaping or whether it's crafts or what have you could conceivably be done on a piece work basis so the employer isn't paying for anything that didn't happen right and here are the vocational experts jobs there's no indication that those three sample jobs are ones that are bound by the hourly pace that they're going to be using a certain amount of things that seems very strange unlikely to me you think an employer would be indifferent about how many packages were that that the price sticker was put on i know i call you that not at all your honor but most employers are not indifferent to any kind of work  task to an employee to get done and here they're going to be more and different if they don't have to pay for work that isn't done right and correct your honor so you know if you're doing even though it's a remote work and you get paid by you know how many pages you something common in the industry i couldn't find it actually anywhere the council dishes council aska as the number of jobs the trunk of the workers time was limited to only occasional interaction with coworkers and that kind of hit said pace thank you he said know that's right your honor and that's actually a good point that the only r who was represented by another attorney at the ministry of level he had one question only for the vocational expert the question wasn't about production rate it wasn't about pace it was actually about the occasional interaction with other coworkers and supervisors and that was the one and only question the l j most certainly gave mrs attorney every opportunity to ask those questions that was the only question that was asked and turned into the burden of proof in all disability cases and certainly from a c l r which is the she has to furnish the evidence to show that she is totally disabled and in this case for really focused on it the burden is on the commissioner to step five to show step that there are jobs in the economy correct and there  misstep five case and there's no indication that the vocational expert didn't understand something about the hypothetical question and well because he didn't s o the doctors said good says workplace probably has to be slowed down to allow her to function adequately and he also says something along the lines of she could attend adequately to the task of the information is presented and not bound by time i don't even  that means given that a certain productivity level is rightly expected by employers well your honor the l j it's hard for me sit standing here any of us who know exactly what was in the mind of a doctor should get she her work pace probably is going to be slowed down but she can adequately attend to task if she's presented with information and not bound by time the o j took that out how unbagged in your view how how liberated from time is she do we know your honor she hasn't presented any evidence other than this examination that she has other problems with time she didn't mean like i guess i'm saying how long is it going to take her to do these things is it going to take her an hour to price a box that it would take somebody else fifteen minutes to do or is it going to take her again the burden is on the commissioner and step five right and the commissioner has presented jobs that based on the evidence she provided this is the r f c and there's really no additional other testimony about the time it takes to do these jobs and as your own points out she she testified about the things that she could do she file taxes using turbo that she could take her time to you know to girl day to fill a term that's right and you're on our i'm not aware i'm not aware of the outer limits of how long it would take or at the same time there's really no indication that she's so substantially burdened by her kind of mental symptoms that things would necessarily have to take all that i'm just worried about the absence of evidence for these three jobs it's a vocational expert identify it's like the last  isn't there on the record and the job of price marker and the job of router by this by and by a person with these hypothetical restrictions would only be slowed down by ten percent and employers could deal with that you know things that are not in the record but if they were in the record i would have a much greater confidence level in what's gone on and your honor this is a suggestion that if i believe mr c larson appeal is that this these words of production pace are on their face in permissible and well understand big usa and it must go back somebody could say this is what i mean by it and it's because sometimes you'll say well suppose somebody is going to be off task ten percent of the time and vocational experts routinely will say well that's ok but if it's fifteen percent of the time then employers can say no so they make these global cess ment regularly and it just wasn't made for this topic but similar to those percentages which again you know as your honor points out vocational experts take from hypothetical questions and apply to their expertise in placing people in jobs and knowing within a job the various kinds of ways to perform that job how detailed are the job codes they were cited for example that those positions of the job codes the twenty two o nine point five eight seven through zero three four right that's the one for the price marker honor and i have that in front of me and in the dictionary of occupational titles it goes through all of the kinds of  and i would like to point out if i may i'm sure realize my time is up that missy learned her appeal doesn't get into these d o t numbers although you know i have them in front of me and i'm happy to answer any questions about in particular but this really goes back to her problem with the translation of dr chef gets opinion into the r f c which is exactly the r c that was given to a vocational expert and this court as we pointed out on page sixteen of our  has up wells in at least three instances r f c s that include this language of no high production no production great production goals so it's not that these words are without any examples t describes generally what the job entails the specifics there's a ged which is the general education development that indicates what kinds of things are involved how much reasoning language math but then you have to use the companion publication selective characteristics of occupations which goes into much greater detail of what the jobs entailed and then there is a decision from this court that the old net could also be used which is the more modern version that will go into even greater detail on what these jobs require the problem with this is that we again have a problem in that the judge never really explained what this what this language meant i  did do some further evaluating in and research and i found only one case that addressed the specific language in the unpublished decision of the sixth circuit who reversed because there was what tends to happen is people with lower functioning processing speed etc tend to do more manual type jobs which they are capable of doing in her case she did work  wood from barnes ok but then she heard her back and now she's limited to light work and once you get into light and sedentary work then you have a problem in that there are certain requirements for more desk work that do not exist