meeting tuesday january eleventh the agenda this evening will be seven o'clock citizens employed by bodie speaking about the william hocking jr memorial michael johns of veterans agent w i will be discussing issues about the in your time report at nine thirty we will go into executive session to speak on strategy for real property and go to negotiations and litigations larry  living i'd like to invite the chairman of the veteran services advisory committee jim fanned out for a special presentation we have a certificate for gary and i'll read it as it's printed out certificate of appreciation let it be known to all that the veterans community of foxboro would like to extend its thanks to gary white house for standing up as never could for veterans support of the veterans community your service to the community is of the highest standards of duty on our commitment to those who served we also want to thank you harry for helping the town as you know a few years ago the chapter one are not being applied for social galleries efforts in the background the town realize that the full time veterans agent would be the better best thing for the a town to have and with the what good evening to those who do not know me i'm robert bodie chairman of the conservation commission tonight i am proud to announce that the commission has established a memorial to honor our past chairman william  the intention of this fine is to erect a permanent and lasting memorial in bill's name to commemorate his many many years of conservation work on behalf of the citizens of foxboro the commission will work closely with the hacking family to sound like and are appropriate memorial the site for the memorial has not been determined but will be at one of three locations on conservation land the first site proposed is the salient property on main street where he loved to hike and pick mushrooms as an aside my preference for this location would be a giant mushroom card from granite to reflect his love of geology and mushrooms another proposed site is near gillette stadium where he was extra mental and daylight in the neponset river to people who are new in town and do not are not aware of it the river passed underground through the foxboro raceway property before gillette stadium was constructed all donations could be made out to the town of foxborough and mail to the commission and we will process them through the proper channels to get them into the moment real fun at this time i'd like you to article five section six and also the stadium rules and regulations will conduct a public airing on tuesday january eleventh two thousand and eleven beginning at seven o five in the end of a gala junior meeting room forty cells street review the application submitted by n p s l c for the taylor swift speak now concert this event is proposed vigil at stadium apple application for this event is on file at the office of selectmen all interested parties are welcome to find that for the most part it's the same as the event that we hosted in two thousand and ten we're playing for tonight this year both saturday june twenty fifth and sunday june twenty sixth it is the same event timeline as the event from last june we are formally requesting a sound check for friday june twenty fourth it would end by ten p m the parking lot right now the license application state situ o'clock opening but that as always is based upon public safety official the fidelity way north through access point would be for public safety officials again the same as last year stadium gates are scheduled to open at four thirty and the show is scheduled to begin at six by eleven fifteen p m the support act for this year is you need to breathe it's only one support act as opposed to last year we've had three ticket prices this year range from thirty nine dollars and seventy five cents to eighty five dollars estimated attendance for both dates is fifty five thousand fans as of right now the breakout is fifty three thousand four hundred reserved seats and one thousand six department permits will all be applied for by m p s employees and sound monitoring levels will be conducted with the statement visor a committee spera we've submitted a poor job placement plan to the board of health this all to also details a timeline of servicing of those units on the event day we with combined with our fixed stadium facilities we still exceed the minimum amount of  that are required by the town by law additionally due to anticipated attending we've added female only restrooms to accommodate the high amount of female tan fans that attend this event as of right now there are no fireworks i guess that attended the the concert and the average age of the people it ending was a boat twenty four years old so we don't anticipate any major issues nor do any of the chiefs the other thing that  and the need to put people in protective custody and the ability of the p d in particular to staff that successfully with what could potentially do a little break time in between in this case due to the experience in the past  d the very generally cooperative nature of the crowd the chief is confident that you know he can handle that kind of a challenge but i think it bears noting for the board's attention that on these back to back concerts we have to i have received a call from several neighbors that have brought this particular issue forward and for this coming playoff game or a side in a couple of officers to monitor the behavior and that particular area and i suggested to the  just to come that i read in the paper at the first event has already been sold out and the other event is almost sold out i think that puts a heck of a burden on the committee that you people to you know if you have a problem say you want to disapprove this there's a heck of a time so i think you're on the undue stress and i would like to see these events brought before the selectmen before they start selling tickets not you know get it can i just respond bob i do agree with you but i must say the stadium i think has always been pretty cooperative in working through any problems so you know it your point is well taken but it hasn't been a problem or at least certainly in my almost three years i don't feel like oh should i better approve it you know just my own personal view floor space presentation stage dance floor bar areas retail store in full service restaurant all interested parties are invited to attend this hearing boards for ackman james she develops clerk and this was published one time on december thirtieth two  you had granted this license to be renewed when we submitted it to a b c c because the physical structure in which the license will be exercised was not yet finished a indicated that they couldn't grab this on renewal and it had to be who application this isn't really a new application because it's exactly the same proposals were put forward before and the reason i no doubt is because the public might see an abbreviated kind of a hearing and say what the heck but that's the reason why because you've already been through a very complicated process before there is one no that you should be aware of there is a change of manager involved  s been something that's been a long drawn out process whether it's been the construction delays and other delays along the process but we are ninety percent complete  hope to have as long as all of our inspections go through and everything is clear we hope to be open by january thirty first depending on where we are with inspections it make it push the first two weeks of february open in i think this entire board takes you know the alcohol violations very seriously so you know what you would imagine you you know it's there are a lot of restaurants up there so we're keeping a careful watch on it but i'm sure things  based on proper activities throughout the year and we made it clear that night that we were sending a message to every establishment in town that the next violation would make an example  of so i just want to join us to call what paul said that that's we not only take it seriously and we've had some issues with other restaurants we've worked through those and we've said we're not tolerate things going forward so you need to know we're very serious about  how we interpret rules and the requirements and the obligations that you have to make sure your patrons i mean are safe throughout the evening we are we are very serious about alcohol service and unsafe service and taking care of us as they come into our had about the concentration of liquor up there that were existing i have had some conversations with chief o'leary and i want to ask if you wouldn't mind mentioning just your e conversations with the management a patriot place about the fact that should we have an additional facility opening the size of the toby keith restaurant that we would  they realize that it's going to add another dynamic to the operation that i actually was not on the board when the first time that this came around so i didn't have an opportunity to vote but i did go back and i looked at the tapes and just to follow up what i larry had said there was some issues with fast restaurants and we did vote to suspend the suspension but it wasn't you know any miss and some of us voted for an immediate suspension so and since then there has been other issues and it's an ongoing issue with me personally when i see it coming here so even though it is expedited i did look at it i'm uncomfortable with the resume in the package but i guess just to emphasize the fact that this is a big issue in town and violations in my opinion is a very big issue and just to try and comfort you a little bit we do make sure that our staff is properly trained for making sure that everyone has to certified we will be making sure that they are trained with regards to how they id that come into our establishment to make sure that they do have that they are of age and that they should be there and we do take it very seriously every every one of our every one of our employees goes t training and then there are updated training procedures that we do throughout the time that we are open and with respect to how we card how we identify is it exceedingly difficult or moderately easy to comply with you know the liquor licenses requirements it isn't every night challenge to uphold the rules of zs that are set before us we do it diligently every time we operate or you know we are very much aware of the responsibility that's far upon us to take care of us when they walk into our building you know so like for example would seem to me pretty  he might need some help with this i think he if you get out a state id that's like from hawaii and it's a bomb i d i think that that's a violation because you mean take a massachusetts license it would seem to me that's an easy one to comply with the make sure that you just take mass licenses but i was just curious whether there are other things to monitor than that like what's what's the hardest thing to monitor like that people try to get away with swapping i d s swap south we use the scanners that will be failsafe but will also have significant training with their staff going over identification going through the id books so that all kids see younger sibling or hopefully can see younger siblings  thank you that yeah i was going to say yes a couple of instances brought businesses before us that have had problems they've brought people and to help them identify how to do things differently and i would suggest that you probably take some time to talk to the chief before you open because we've tried to make sure that if someone has gone through a difficult experience that that gets shared with every ounce of that they can learn from that so we've had some of that and i think you'll be a benefit to you if you took the time to talk to the chief about that warrant or not none of these are petitioning articles so they are all subject to your control one understands you it is exclusively the board of selectmen so even though you know departments or boards request on ticals it's your decision to include or not now what i would propose to the board is that you look at each of them i will give you a quick emphasis quick explanation what it's about the departments are all here so that if you have to assist you in your deliberations or if you have questions you they will do the details because i don't know what town council is also here and he will process whatever you  decide and do some redrafting of this warrant for your car your comments and what we're hoping is or have it done pretty much by the end of the week early next week and post it in plenty of time to meet sta if in the process of going through it these articles you don't have to take any positions on them tonight but you will need to do it at some point so if you feel so compelled as you're going through the articles to take a position you can do that in addition to voting to include or not and i'll note that and will be a little ahead of the game because we won't have as many to process when you come back to these on a future gender to actually take positions final point board needs to pick the town meeting date recommendation from staff and it's just the recommendation is march seventh we have checked with the ago so they've at least have the opportunity to begin their deliberations they will probably wrap up looking at the budget around the first or second week of february which will give them three or four weeks or so  early next week with respect to the actual copy then call you and have you come in and sign the final round sometime during the we don't have to have a meeting to do that sign if i want sometime next week and i get meaning that we do in special meanings unless it's something very like a patriots thing or something and so when i went and looked at the warren and i looked just like article for it to vote to raise an appropriate sum of money for a study or article five to raise or appropriate for a study or article six to raise or appropriate money for a study it seems to me that philosophically those are annual town meeting items that they are items that could be subject to rigorous debate they are financial items and it would seem to me that those are better placed at an annual meeting than a special meeting but since we really not talk as a board philosophically about the purpose of special meetings versus even reading about i would just bring up the general topic of what do we think is a is appropriate since these are not through petition and there we can approve the types of items that we think are appropriate for a special town meeting versus eight and you know no meeting for instance we  had brought up a meals tax and two special town meetings and lost both of them and the first one when it was defeated people said all that wasn't a big crowd was let's do it again well we do know another special town meeting there was a big crowd that was defeated and then someone said well we have to try to third time we said no we've already tried it twice and you know so that it just seems to me that that money articles are better served when we have the larger population to devote to discuss it to debated and to resolve the issue rather than to have it at a special town meeting so i just thought i'd just philosophically what we think goes in a special versus what you're going to win and you're well i mean i think we've run up a few times if you guys the fact you know what is the meat and potatoes one hundred people under twelve people making those kinds of financial decisions for the twelve thousand voters is it seems unfair when most people recognise that the springtown this is really deal with the big budget issues the money issues etc and so they just might it might bypass some people with all the things going on with the basketball and all that kind of stuff and not realize that the special tommy is kind of common it's here and it's got these kinds of issues but there are some significant issues here that i thought would probably be better to be debated with a larger crowd of people maybe we can go through them and individually one or two will jump out as to making sense to  makes the transfers that are necessary in order to do that and i would say unlike some of these money articles this one is time sensitive right i understand that and this one is time sensitive the funds are available in other accounts you're just moving them from one account to another because not what i'm raising or appropriating my money these are transfers if i do we want to vote on each article as we do it to say whether we support you know support it as a war and i know not whether we is that what you want to do you want to make a motion to put it on the tele i make a motion that we put on the top one second  your discussion on thank you article two as you know we have a certain amount of money that we don't collect from private entities in town for police detail this is the officers you see to be doing street details they do it to what he details of the bank details a very small number of those we don't end up collecting for a whole variety of reasons in this case at least one of these two these are this is that went out of business and we're not going to get the money you know the only alternative to because we are required under the law to pay the officers within fourteen days  obligation the statute requires us because this is considered payroll and been six months a year later we don't get reimbursed because somebody goes out of business a spike the fact that we chase them we will have a deficit in the fund unless we transfer money from free cash available revenue into the police detail fund to bring it back into the black and we can't run it legally in the red so this was a transfer of one thousand seventy one dollars from available funds will be free cash in order to cover three  business i'm sure the boards are aware that we collect in excess of one hundred twenty thousand dollars a year and the administrative fees for the off duty accounts and at their request of  finance director we're trying to just clean the books up from that sicko back several years the fact of the matter is we've had collections so far in this fiscal period of well over one point five million dollars have success rate of just over ninety eight point eight percent of all outstanding bills that we have through d c so process chief do  require new businesses or businesses that haven't been established with you in the past to be upfront and make a deposit to cover the fee for the police offices we have been doing just as a matter of course we collect information about deposit down if that's possible so that you should not have to be there getting the benefit of the of the service and then you've got a right to chase them and it just seems to be if they need that service they should put the money up front this is an extraordinary collection ratio the this is the best of the seen far away ninety eight point nine percent i mean essentially ninety nine is absolutely outstanding having said that i have indeed you know other communities required upfront payment from certain delinquent or slow payers want to select the basis and we just frankly tell them you don't pay you don't get the detail in the way you have to do it as you require an estimate for the duration of the detail they pay that amount if it goes over your balance bill and if it's on the you have to reimburse it so it's a little bit more work and i wouldn't do it unless we had someone who was a chronic late payer and we're spending money tracing them and i was saying that not just the details so i just would like us to kind of take a look at that here and you know ninety nine percent of guys and bad certainly but when you look at a million and a half dollars a year you know one percent wri off every year and it's probably the same kinds of numbers it's not the larger corporations that are going under so if i just give it some thought determine if there's a root cause if there's a way that you can minimize it then that's great iraq as you probably know the statute amounts uses that allows us to exempt small amounts of personal property that we assess because it yields a tax bill which is so small in this case under ten dollars that it's frankly not worth our while the bill that seven hundred fifty dollars assessed valuation yields a bill of ten dollars or less with our current tax rate so what we want to do is adopt out so that we're not billing you know not sending out six dollar bills and some dollar bills you know randi actually has a great deal of detail in terms of how many there there's this threshold here seven hundred fifty dollars of value of personal property value or last we sent out this fiscal year forty two bills for that of course because we send out two bills a year so we sent out eighty four bills collect a grand total of and in the whole fiscal year one hundred forty two dollars and so the one bill a couple of bills are as low as you can see twenty six cents so you can imagine types of comments that we get a ok thank you how many of these are for cars and you have a discussion ever in conversations with the back of the chairman of the wage wage board personal wage board came evident that we have had a number of employees who have undergone change non union employees with undergone changes in their jobs and the last three or four years and we have not taken a look at our wage and classification plan for the nonunion employees since i believe it was two thousand  event date but it was something like that conventional wisdom is that you have to take a look at that plan once every three years three years is considered a good interval more than that and you're really running the risk of having imbalances imbalances are of two types one is internal imbalances meaning jobs that are supposed to be compared to one another inside of our organization are out of sync somebody maybe getting paid more than they should compared to others and in external comparisons we compare ourselves to other communities which in class study has not been updated and i believe it's five years so the conversation back on we've done a five this is a need and so they requested that we do it and i certainly strongly support that we need to do this by comparison with our union employees who with whom we negotiate every year we conduct common wage studies basically every time w negotiate so those wages stay very competitive because their constant leave being reviewed the with the nonunion folks if we don't get to this task we run the very real risk of becoming noncompetitive which affects retention and recruitment even in a poor economy it still really affects retention and recruitment and as you probably are aware we just had a perfect example we attempted based on our current wage and class study to recruit a new water sewer superintendent due to leo's pending retirement and we were unsuccessful in attracting any candidates for met the basic minimum requirements of the job description and the reason is very simple we weren't paying enough because we haven't reviewed this plan in a long time so it jumped off the page as a startling example that this has got to be kept up to date so that's what the struggle for how much does this type of study run  i haven't gotten any quotes yet but because we've got a plan already and it's an excellent plan usually around fifty the plans get written for around twenty five or thirty thousand i think we get updated for around fifteen now i haven't looked at the plant when i was told is that some of the job descriptions from the original plan for some reason didn't get done and i've got to review that and see if that's the case so with the caviar if all job descriptions are there and it's just a matter of reviewing them and updating them doing in a comparable ways survey with other communities and then tweaking the system then i think we can do it within fifteen easily if some of the job descriptions aren't done and we have to update them and it will be a little bit more because the consultant have to create those kevin if if if article four is goes to the to the floor and they vote for it all that tells the voters that they are voting to raise that appropriate appropriate amount of money correct it doesn't say how much so this five thousand fifty thousand one hundred thousand oh no no  there's case law boxford case the basic says if you put an amount of money in the one you cannot exceed it that's my point so generally the way i like to write one subject title counsels approval unless i absolutely have a number oh absolutely it will have a number on these within a couple weeks because once you're done with the warrant tonight then we start doing a lot more work to back up some of these articles so the first thing i'll do is i'll call three consultants and say ok here's a plan come on and take a look what would cost updated now i have a number for you but based on experience having done this quite a number of times i feel pretty confident fifteen is in the ballpark and you think three months makes a difference between doing it in february on this one it does for the simple reason if adjustments are necessary and adjustments can be one of the three types they can be someone who's being paid a lot more than they should i don't think that's like fund this at the march town meeting there's a chance and i'm not going to commit to it but there's a chance that if any adjustments are necessary we could have an article on the annual to fund them and make those corrections rather than have people who are due funds wait until the next available time meeting and then of course it would have to be retroactive so there is some time that is the nature of the time sensitivity and i'll leave it to your judgment whether that's compelling enough to put it on the special or not but i'm going to tell you right now i suspect you're going to have some adjustments based on what i've seen looking at the wage and class point are going to have some so it's really a matter of if we do it now there's a chance discussion discussion when you think haven't you do the study you come up with the baseline of what people's jobs are worth and salaries and then make adjustments making the adjustments up you know make the adjustments back you know here's what happens if somebody is determined to be overpaying based upon a comparable wage survey with other communities and i'm not saying that's not possible it's just i don't think it's likely because presumably if this plan was written in two thousand and six and it was balanced then wages of the community have gone up so i don't think you'll have them but it's possible because the wage wage board has a my understanding is that they've granted a couple of re classification but without i don't know if they had the benefit of having professional assistance when that was done so conceivably a mistake could be made if you find that when you do what's called redlining basically it's literally on the way to klein's point and that position gets a red line and that any employee occupying that position does not get a raise until the normal process of granting cola's catches up and then so that  you know in two or three years what would have the colors that would have been granted which were not granted now equals with the salary is and then that employee can begin the progress again more likely you're going to find that there are a few positions where the wages of fallen behind the market and in that instance that employee moves from the current plan to the new one to the step and grade that they're closest to but not less than so it's just the luck of the draw and this is independent of job performance it's category and steps and yeah this is nothing to do with job performance this is strictly maintaining our wage and class plan so that we retain our employees and we advertise we're competitive and about on a number of occasions two real driving forces behind this one is we have two pieces of town on property down there that we're considering for sale and we want to be sure that you know if we do sell them what does the public want you know to see in terms of what the reuse of those properties are that's part of it the other part of it is more about hopefully within the next two or three years they have a great deal more sewer capacity and that will affect the downtown in a dramatic way in what way with the public like to see the downtown grow so the downtown studies basically answer those questions now the board had a lengthy discussion two weeks ago and we're doing the goals and objectives of of potentially doing a master plan which would consider economic development and growth and one downtown growth of the commercial area down the near the mansfield line and of course residential areas of town to i brought that information back to the planning board and a planner had a meeting with kevin bill and plan to mark and basically said to them what would be the recommendation of board to bring back to the board because if you do a master plan you don't need to do a separate downtown plan because you do you would include the downtown in the master plan they are mulling that over they expect to reach a conclusion thursday you're going to meet they're going to take a vote relative or of cost downtown study we talked to some consultants about fifty thousand in order to do the kind of comprehensive job that the plan to board feels needs to be done if you do a master plan that master plan is a full blown study of the town it takes a year and a half to two years to do it's tremendously comprehensive you're looking at one hundred one hundred twenty five thousand what i would like is the board's permission if you are so inclined to do this do it on this one and as opposed to the may just your permission to let the planning board make the call downtown study for master plan and go with a recommendation so that i don't have to bring this back to you in a subsequent meeting goes out would tie things up so if they vote thursday night let's do a master plan then we just put we eliminate the downtime we put  master plan on the other hand if you're not inclined to fund this right now you want to do it of may that course is up to you this is one where i don't see that there's any time constraint necessarily we do it now and then the public sees fit the funded  for three months working on a three month sooner than later but i don't see that out as is enormously important either way now having said that i would defer to lorraine  happy that is going forward i did see bill maher kind of back there i'm sorry i don't mean to speak for you guys on but on the assumption that the point board does take a vote thursday night which way they like to go i'll let we've got quite a bit of time on property with buildings on it the two properties right in the downtown two more properties over chestnut green the auditorium building the so called laundry building and then we've got private individual homes in a number of locations around town and these are all not being currently used the question is do we foresee a future use for these properties or not and if we don't then you know let's take advantage of the selling and making some realizing some profit getting back on the tax rolls and getting the income from selling them and so typically the kind of analysis that you do is call them usable space needs study where you know bring someone in they took a look at all the town buildings they kind of say ok you know how much more space we're going to need in the future and do we need these properties or don't we  i always recommend to the board that we do that kind of analysis because you know if we sell a piece of town property and in five or six years we really needed it we look really bad got some really going to our face because it's almost one in a half to do that for and the other hand if we do is thoughtful analysis we engage the public in a discussion and we've got a reasonable assurance when we sold property that we're doing it it should get more you should be more people at that time meeting that make that decision that's part of it paul but you are also being told that we're looking at a two million dollars potential deficit and we're taking out a free cash were taken out of free cash we're taking o free cash and i think that to make these financial decisions now before we have that the idea of where are we with revenue in expenses for the next fiscal year that doesn't make sense and i don't see the pressing need on any of these three to not wait until may timeframe we have the we do know where we are financially as a community we know what what free cash is going to be we know the impact of everything and i don't think the three months makes a big difference but i think it does help us know the financial condition of the town of the time  that we're going to do all this transfers from free cash so i look at it also you know over the last few months we've talked about new town hall renovated you look in the paper we're talking about  than the senior center so wrecked buildings the fire station and it goes on and on there's a lot of assets out there what i'm afraid of if we don't look at the needs and what we have we're going to make a wrong decision so it's not you know holding off a decision some things have to be done and if we don't have this information we make we have more of a potential to go in the wrong direction and i'm not opposed to a jimmy saying to do it in february versus may i don't think we lose anything waiting in may but what we do know in may is the financial position of the comp by the time we know that the cash position and free cash and we have a better idea of how many of these we can afford it one time considering the whole picture i think do agree we need to study i do agree on item five we need the study done but when you're looking at a two million dollars potential deficit and hired other aspects and i know people say we cry wolf too often but the state isn't talking happy days and they're not talking about increasing revenue we're talking about you know the state could be decreased even their boss and just kind of accepted the fact that he's going to every tuesday so i just think for the three months don't hurt ourselves waiting till we know the financial picture that which you know i guess the i think it should go through on this warrant and i'd like to see it passed because i think it's a prudent thing to do basically for the point to make i guess i'm going to second larry's motion for the reason that i'd hate to had like the sales tax get put up shut down and just as a tactical matter not go through it all so i'll second larry's motion downtown now we have of her he unusual situation it sits on two parcels one parcel came to the town by a tax title so in order to sell it if that's the will board we can do it by auction which is a very efficient process the other part of the parcel came to the town by gift or purchase or some other procedure which makes it not eligible to be auctioned it must be sold through the r of p process now it just so happens that fifty one percent of the parcel is the part that did not come to us through tax cycle and forty nine percent of the parcel as measured by land mass came to what was my tax site and we would like potentially to auction it so we can't because it's fifty nine i'm sorry fifty one forty nine in order to have the option to auction it we have to get a special act of the legislature so we have written out it's a home rule petition so the board would have to approve it tom media would have to approve it and the massachusetts legislature would have to grant did and all this does is gives us the legal right to sell that piece of property either by our of p or by auction a decision you wouldn't be making probably for another year till we finished our you know civil space needs study into the downtown study but it is something we need to get on with because these special lacks sometimes you get them in three months sometimes reading it wrong i'm probably opposed to this more than any of you or articles i struggled with that i look at the the benefit of selling the fire station in the piece behind it and there's a certainly a quick fix for that for the quick cash but there's probably about a ten to twelve reasons that i wouldn't want to sell it just a correction this does not require if this passes you are not required to sell the property correct well knowing that you it's an effort and i don't mean to cut you off but i understand that i just don't if we lift the playing board if we're going to go through with the downtown study i think we may find that we might not want to sell it and if that's the case we've gone through this effort for no reason development traffic to libraries coming on right around the corner we don't know what the traffic and parking and implications are going to be there's so much that's unknown right now to sell this and take the couple hundred thousand quick have that in your mind which it's not going to tip the card for any development that we have going on certainly not going to fund the town hall and we lose a piece virtually forever i don't want to go down that road unless we know that is something that we want to sell in waste a lot of time so i would probably again i am against article seven this is the fire station probably that we have like  know i think just the other side of the equation and not developing and selling i think there's a there's a benefit and there's a return on that but by not turning it into you know issues in the commons and jim i don't necessarily disagree with you but i i guess i support this because all it does is make it easier if some board down the road or some town meeting down the road decides that there's an opportune time to sell it  it takes away our hurdle that if there was an opportune our opportunity to do it and it fit into the plan and everything would more sense it would be allow us to move a little faster so it doesn't commit us to sell it but it does take away our hurdle that we currently have yeah and i agree with that if there was an opportunity six months or a year from now but with a condom is it is it's probably the worst time to sell a piece of property especially on the common and isn't it and  sure up to you know two three years away i think would be crazy to sell it unless we knew what the full potential is so again if this was something that was going to make or break a decision we were a year from now but i don't think the obstacle is insurmountable in the time that we have is is out there so it's basically a housekeeping article with tidy is up a lot but it does make two substantive changes the first is it removes the calendar year is the basis on which a repeat offender begins counting the repetitions so that you don't start off at the lowest find so in other words a somebody goes through the the number of fines and then they get to the next year the start of the lowest one again so if we have know earlier in the year we had issues with cats and we went through and try to find out if there was a way to address it in kind of fell short on that did you i didn't see that addressed in here is this a good opportunity to address when someone has an exorbitant amount of cats that are annoying neighbors yeah and we talked about it before and i mean it's a difficult catch all to address it but i just want to make sure i wasn't forgotten but it's still it's intentionally not putting it thank you and you know the discussion and most that  council as well because there's been a good deal of research done on each of them one of them we are going to recommend that we not include we get to tape not number ten i'm sorry number ten is the one is if they have to make repeat visits to a residence a business or whatever do you want to relieve the unruly nature of people there so typically we would say this is a loud party where people call complain the offices tell the people you know you have to drive and music go home and in fifteen minutes later they get called back for the same thing however while it's a terrific idea we're not sure it meets a lot of li that would be required in order to be able to enforce it and secondarily not to speak for the chief or counsel but i think the feeling consensus was that this might potentially invite litigation this might be a first in the state and do we really want to be the one to defend that litigation so having said that if you'd be consensus was to it's not ready for prime time if you will it needs more work and more consideration so i'd move to exclude  unfortunately due to a personal matter i was unable to be at the town meeting and i guess there was some confusion when it was discussed the purpose is to be able to hire officers within a certain age range so that they can complete a successful career as members of our department currently we could accomplish the same thing by just adopting a specific section of chapter thirty one such as the civil service regulations but that would set the age limit at thirty two i think people that are in their mid thirty's such as thirty five certainly can complete a career and be beneficial to our community but i have concerns on more mature individuals beyond that age limit because there's a tendency to starting your career  policing that way it's a very wearing for fashion in terms of the physical demands and i think it would be prudent for the part of the community to change the age regulation so that we know that the people that are serving our community can stand up to the repetitive nature of these physical demands so cheap  what i think the problem last time was in help me here with my memory is that people like well what if there's a transfer or someone comes in from another community and i think that was part of the well again that was a question that i heard was asked and counsel at that particular time wasn't sure based on my experience with civil service if we took a transfer and we could take the minute any age of the service it doesn't limit you it's the entry point for coming onto the department in a civil service community that's what this would restrict somebody that's already in the system from one community to another and another question i heard that came up concern the use of veterans a particular person that served in the forces gets up to a four year credit for this service with the military so the age limit for a veteran in this situation with four years service he could be up to age thirty nine i think chief one of the other questions that are one of the other comments that was made is that while you may say someone who's thirty six as a difficult job with the rigor of the position when you look at communities will say outside of foxborough you see some police officers who are north of thirty six and you wonder if they could run thirty five or fifty yards to chase somebody and so this seemed to be two standards one one ciaran whether or not you can physically handle the job at fifty or fifty five or fifty eight versus someone who's thirty five versus thirty eight versus forty and that people today i mean let it continue in the past and so i think there was some concern about whether or not this was discrimination at the time and you're comfortable that it isn't  i'm comfortable that it isn't otherwise we wouldn't have the opportunity to narrow the range both civil service and other communities such as boston in fact boston uses this particular age  cutoff point has indicated that there are some job related requirements of the position it's in the same vein that officers are rip quiet to retire at a specific age well due to their concerns guess the question i had hoped was then do we do we vote to approve this so that it's inserted and then to have town council rewarded and then approve rewarding or do we what's the best way of doing it well right now we're just we're without investing a lot of money in town councils time put that warning from the board and it always goes to town council and normally there's a there's a lot of editing but not completely rewriting whole articles like this one you know kind of language is i think what we voted a couple years ago at the advisory committee and we supported it and i think it kind of fell apart on at the floor but even though i supported it then i still have the same exact if somebody comes in that a day over it's thirty six thirty five and a half and he said he or she says i'm fit i can do the job is this going to be overturned or is this age discrimination or is this going to be an issue with the unions i'm sure you could go to the fire department and they could have the same issues because they need to be fit as well has this been tried before other than boston issue age restrictions for public safety has really has been consistency between the two i don't know what they're getting there probably should and that's a good point i don't know that you would necessarily not do one because we don't have the other one teed up for y but i'd like to speak in support of what the chief is trying to do it is not to say that there are not older fit people have gyno of the fifty seven year old show soldier who still thinks he can run around the hills and he's too old to be doing unless they offend anybody it's make things right but the reality is this work like this that has a bona fide  requirement to maintain a certain level of physical fitness it is the case that by and large when you get to this age and remember we hire someone at thirty five you're go give us presumably twenty years of service retire at fifty five and fifty five with a minimum age for retirement for a plus one voice police and fire so we want to hire people no waiter than that date because once you get into those age brackets tendencies you're going to have you got you're going to have a lot more likelihood of physical injury doing the grunt work that a police officer does so you hire a four year old person and presumably they're going to do a twenty  sixty i can pretty well guarantee you that that's going to be enjoined duty and i would be problem at some point you know officers career because physically i'm sorry we just can't do it you know fifty fifty five sixty what we can to at younger ages so by not having an age restriction what we're doing is we're saying we are we are creating a situation where we are consciously and we replace that officer over time so it's what the chief is proposing is is exclusionary in the fact that yes a thirty five and one day year old person we will not be able to hire them this were to be passed on the other hand it is smart business because the vast majority of people over that age are not going to give us twenty years of service without getting injured that's the reality kevin and i i'm not opposing it and i'm not arguing with the merits and i agree it's you need the physical fitness what i'm questioning is when someone's offended by it and then they come and it's a legal issue here can it stand up and i don't want to waste legal effort and time a year from now on a question that you know can be asked now it's so if you're telling me we're moving the chains it's been done before and if someone comes in a year from now and challenges it or the union does that we're not going to be backtracking you know six people that we said no to a year we're actually more liberal so would you be looking at working with the fire chief to think about whether or not something similar should be thought of out there yeah i would say if this meets with the board's pleasure and you want to adopt this entire meeting place that it becomes a violation of title by law that a civil citation could be issued and that if the civil citation is not paid into tightly meander that a criminal complaint could be sought against the surrounding communities and i selected one that i thought the most appropriate for our community and it would have a fine for this use of the session public place of two hundred dollars marijuana i would move to include the article i'll second it with discussion in the discussion is this is i guess in both cases of the public intoxicated this or this marijuana one is well you have any idea whether or not let's say someone gets hit with this penalty you know they're filling out a job application yes i was arrested for pot did you know i have a set i mean i know you don't have a form in front of you not mr lawyer on this but my concern is have it but again you know the balance of it is if it were something that would go into criminal record i didn't want to do that but well the only way you fall that's true for you if the person doesn't pay the fine we could go to district court and obtain a criminal complaint for failing to have bad buyable if you're not if you're dumb enough not to pay the penalty you deserve it yeah so yeah would that make sense i mean we don't see the language but i think we get the idea of it and the age restriction whether we will let you know i mean i make a motion that i support in theory the age thirty five limitation is recommended intoxication it has to deal with the people that are taken into protective custody this is not just a stadium issue it's a growing community issue where we have people that binge drinking excessively use alcohol by staff house to deal with taking them into custody and actually taking care of them until we can either raid hospitalization if it's alcohol poisoning or until such time as they become sober it becomes a very costly factor for the community to provide caretaking services for a choice the individual has made or they're all and i think by issue of civil far that it would make the person aware that  there is a issue of a problem and that it would be inforced much like a by law or if the fight is not paid again we should go after them for a violation of a tower by law is a criminal user that's a good question it's the price of now what do you actually make sense to  me i think a hundred dollars is too low i think when you consider the irresponsibility of an adult assuming they're legal age and it isn't too much of a restaurant or you know i read in the paper that a person parked their car a these two by laws are two and doing two different things the marijuana by law is more punitive in nature it's punishment for doing it centrally and should be punished for being drunk well actually no the article thirteen enumerates what it is we're collecting that money for now that doesn't mean that you couldn't increase the fine be on hundred dollars so long as  queen that's the big cost i mean you look at the number of people that you've got to run back and forth and sometimes you can't go to the hospital sometimes they're kept at that but the fire department it's all there you know i mean there's just there's a lot of cost involved in that and there should be some recouping of the of a way to get at the beginning of it and see what happens but there's a couple of other concerns paul will tell you about some concerns he has i'll tell you about another one that i've got in the area of the miscible finance and  and whether the complaint with that issue for violation of law by law because based on the poor right at the person who has the opportunity perhaps to pay the fine to the clerk's office as opposed to being arraigned that  criminal charge that might have a public ramification not that we would make a decision on this basis but is one hundred dollars the right amount if we're going to maximize the amount that we would receive from this it just i know it's a guess but i mean you  know one hundred might be the right number to three hundred i will bet you we have a lot more people that we take into protective custody because they're drunk than we're going to arrest for marijuana use on a street of course you know it would seem to me that if if two hundred dollars was comfortable for the marijuana then you'd have at least two hundred comfortable for being taken into protective custody as a penalty for alcohol abuse but c really to some extent beyond my purview to interpret a penalty for something however it is a serious public health batter right and as a community i think we have to look at this to happening it take it to a different level and larry had said you know someone that they're of legal age you go high school party there's ten sixteen year olds and you make a judgment call that they're intoxicated and they pose a danger so you get ten the parents responsibility to make sure that their children are not at those parties you refer to them i would encourage the board listening to a town council said to bifurcate this issue into two pieces the first issue is do you want to establish a fine understanding that the purpose of a fine is the service of the tyrant to get people to stop doing this and since we have an obvious very substantial problem majority of the stadium but not exclusively as the chief says i think there's some wisdom in what larry saying and having the fine be larger what paul is telling you if i'm hearing him correctly is it going down the road of having this fine this amount of money be construed as a fee to amortize our costs to the slippery slope may not pass right right right scrutiny so we're just not even talk about yet that's great i agree i think you can catch question on the in the part about said fine should be assessment persons are in a public place something about the high school party gym or in a private place where the public has been given right of access so private party you find you know i invite my neighborhood you know five neighbors i wonder whether or not i've invited the public in and thus i get i get hit by this or is that a private party well what are the difficulties for you to become intoxicated in your own home if you're a business right if you become intoxicated such that you're outside the public view so for you know what you do in your own home is your own business and to do a great extent except if you and your wife go away for the weekend and the chief gets called to your house because your son or daughter wanted three people to come they get a call this saying help police there's too many kids here i can't control them and they've destroyed homes i totally support this but i think it needs just a little bit more work and i'd support the higher fine to it's kind of arbitrary i would agree with the two hundred as a starting point you  w i'm kind of thinking a lot and i apologize to the chief for thinking aloud but i'm almost thinking this needs more work and you know at the very least it's going to require i mean the idea is solid as a rock i think not right or astronomical so but at the same time if the town council has to do some fairly substantial research and rewriting of this we don't have a lot of time for you to get this one post can we do it as a two parter is it you know easy easier part now and then we had the heart of questions later we just do it all at once well seen i mean he would certainly say you know private or including a private place where  hopefully if it's approved meeting that the attorney general's office you know get a look at it hopefully get her approval so that you know it would be in effect for the start of the  that's what we're talking about as written we don't know listening to the level of concerns of town council house hearing the chief say that this is not time sensitive i would like to respectfully ask the board to to defer this really let us to for this one let us do some more staff work on  it and come back to you with this with a meeting i think the ideas get tremendous merit and we need to do it but i just think there's a concern that we wouldn't get all the questions answered in the just very few days we've got for you to get this thing posted finance director the c f o whatever the director of finance director whatever randy could build into the budget the twenty thousand or the estimated amount which you could then utilize towards your budget but if we don't i said that i wanted to make a comment on the financing of this run i've discussed this the original and concept here was to offset some of the costs and as we've now learned we probably can't really look at that because that would get us into some trouble in terms of being able legally enforce this however having said that while you can't make the purpose of the bylaw that you can take any missile revenue and you can use it to  you can spend that revenue for a particular reason or another correct so if it was the board's intent and the outcome agreed in the town meeting approved you could take this revenue you could put it through one of two kinds of revolving phones and you could use the money for whatever purpose that we wanted to say in that revolving fund so for instance you could in fact use this for expenses related to  incarceration of person or you could use it for training of police officers who do that work and we spend a significant amount of money doing that so you could take the revenue you could recapture it for specific uses in terms of the impact on the budget the chief just indicated to you how many of these were doing so there's obviously a very significant impact in the budget potentially you can still accomplish that in may how do you how do you build the revenue went to a budget if you don't know tommy he's going to approve it you have to do it on it we've got a very conservative finance department and they don't generally do that but if you in fact had this approved in february then you could build an estimate in and feel comfortable that whether you know ten thousand fifteen thousand or twenty are hundred whatever and you know that and i was down but it's it's so much my concern is that if we delay it then he can't build it into the into the into the budget for next year and then you can't appropriate for whatever word every word whatever reason you want to so to me it's very substantial and to miss that window seems almost irresponsible when you think of the dollar amount and i know rand is very conservative so he's not going to take you modern times a thousand he's going to these and put something less in there but even something half that number is very substantial in a tight fiscal situation and could help us in lots of ways including in the police department so that's my only argument for trying to do something that we could use the revenue for the for the fiscal budget for two thousand and twelve the it certainly is the case that if we if we if we knew we could get the work done and i really would defer to town council to tell us if he could get this research done in a quality article returned  by early next week if he can say yes to that question then i would withdraw my recommendation and would defer it till may because that would give tom meeting soffit the process that would make a substantial impact revenue wise on the budget deficit  hundred thousand for any took half the number one hundred thousand dollars is huge to wait three months so it while it's not time sensitive in terms of one respect it's very time sensitive are in real terms  use it in may and i will give no details i do you do it on a speculative basis you tell time meeting look part of it but we've not catered to just to be fair randy's been very clear that's not how we operate secure and so i don't think we're going to dictate to him that he change the approach ok so  i don't think he'd be comfortable and i would be comfortable putting it in before a town meeting approved it because if in fact we put in the town meeting and approve it we are probably right you know that's why i'd like to try to put some pressure on our town council to see really and i'm fine with that because then when you evaluate his budget you might be more willing to give him a few extra dollars than you might otherwise have because of the revenue coming in so it gives us a greater flexibility to help you out it we're not going to get that we have to and i never want to put the department you don't have to get the same issue in part with speeding tickets you go and get one hundred of them extra if you so it's but the bottom line is if we're looking at a two million dollar deficit next year an extra hundred thousand dollars is a big number in mother goes to the fire department the police department i would have parted whatever that extra hundred thousand and the reason why i don't mind it is it is punitive if someone was that irresponsible that they had to get under protective custody and i don't have a problem that they're fined two hundred dollars and you know i mean it is one more point being that the reason i brought up the private party part was i think that's the thing that would kill it a tad meaning so i would just ask the board if in asking town council to look at it that he could get a good wide berth in the drafting such that it's clear that it's not for a private party where we have our neighbors  know that they could apply to i don't think it would because as you know as a chief says i don't think you're looking to you know grab people out of their homes for being drunk well maybe you are i don't know i'm sorry very clear you know sometimes we have to go to private homes yet because of  the fight would take place in your own all right good that's probably clear just from my first radio mike i don't know in my view chief is this is a huge step forward if at some point down the road our town meeting people people decided they thought that should count it's easier to put something in there to take something out on the floor tommy because you're right paul if it's in there is the reason for voting against it but if someone wants to make a member to add it then the first and then you add this information for the by a lot but what was protection act it's the first one says adding definitions time frames procedures blah blah blah is here but i'm a part of this by law the second one is changing the d e q e which isn't been called that for a long time department of firemen quality engineer to department of environmental protection and then the last one is basically stating that specifically that after public notice and public hearing the conservation commission can probably get rules and regulations for the bylaw and at a minimum these regulations will define key term defined additional terms not and i'll make a motion to bring seventeen forward to the town meeting s i don't think that the attorney general was trying to discourage public from coming and saying whatever they want to saying or whatever to me business has always been a citizen the comes and has a two minute three minute statement played to comment that complement whatever in this particular case dick has he he wanted more than thirty minutes but he had he had a significant amount of material he wanted to review with the board and i don't think you could have done that reasonably under under visitors because it really he spent a lot of time and effort he has come to us and talked about over time at the end report so to me it warranted a separate item on the agenda because we haven't had in forced him to go and do the research to do the work that he did and i think we owe it to him and the public to hear what he has to say and give him a reasonable amount of time to do that and i don't think that could have been done visit i confess i don't recall the you know asking him to go do that that i just my memory is not that good i'm saying we didn't ask him but when he told us what he was doing we didn't say sorry we don't care we i think encouraged him to go and do the rest of the work and again i don't want to belabor it but we've i think he's met with both the time manager and the town accountant for him to discuss these items and we talk about micromanaging is it really necessary for us to go delve into the details of the town manager and town accountant have dealt with and i think that you know they addressed the concern so which leads me to the question of then is this a matter of we need we might have emotion coming out of this or is this it an idea of the town manager and  town and didn't you know address the concerns and that there is a problem that we need to be alerted of and then you know that just questions whether or not they're doing their job or is it just a matter of let's talk about you know stuff and get stuff out in the open that it be nice for the public to be educated on i'm just not sure which of those things so we can make a motion and just to educate the public not sure what's going to come out of it this evening i mean kevin might have more input from that you know we have talked about micromanaging and not wanting to do that and i'm just i'll sit and listen and hear what we get  one one and i'm wondering if you're brought into sharman to give blessing to the arrangement of the stars or whatever there may be above us for this meeting but i think the problem that i'm trying to address this thing is town officers agents boards committees shall make and submit to the board of selectmen the report of their doings in the preceding year and those authorized to spend money shall state in their reports the objects and methods of such expenditures referring however to the accountants report for detail of figures what i've gotten into is looking at the report for detail figures and its lock in the  chiefs and don overtired and bob swanson there was enough in those five individuals to complicate things in my mind on how to proceed on on this whole thing which took me back to the annual report i think what we're getting into or what i've been getting into is that there's three areas of concern that i've stumbled on the n your report is not an animal port and if you look at the files on the detail expenditure counts are not there they disappeared in eighty seven why i don't know and this is part of the process that i've gotten into is calendar all of the fees collected in every department report our calendar there's no way in the world of comparing those calendar numbers in the document with the fiscal number which is the audit at the end an example would be very simply if you think about it the audit at the end has one line for public safety it mentions it on three different pages but it's one line the warrant has fourteen lines if i'm looking for the salary account for the police department there's no public data on this web so whatever and then asking andy for his publication and then asking the chief for that his publication i got five different numbers on what the payroll is what the overtime is what other issues are tied in and even by the same department issuing documents and this became an issue that yes i got a great deal of information but there's nothing that is clear and finite that any taxpayer can look at and get into the these documents and information as your report indicates the annual report of the town officers together with  report of the town accounting finance director for the year ending december thirty first this is on the opening page of your annual report and it's been on that opening page for the last thirty five years that i have copies of right at the bottom there was nothing in here on december thirty first except for the fees collected by the different departments in the wage and salary there's no way anyone in this town your board or anyone else can ascertain what the expenses have been for the calendar year or fiscal year because there's no detail i referred back to by law the detail figures they aren't here they disappear and as i indicated on the bottom of page one there is the thought you have wage and salary in the back of the book but there nine hundred years odd names how do i know who's working for whom there's no cross referencing i have to know all nine hundred people who they work for in order to abstract from that what the salary account is or the overtime account is or the third party account is for the for any department in town so that this is part of part of the problem this can be cleaned up very simply with a prefix or need however you want to arrange it or separated out as randy did when he supplied me with the the overtime accounts of the different departments he isolated the partner in a department b department c and it was very clear who was way or what the overtime and the salary accounts are in the gross but we also have four hundred people in that wage and salary report that are out of  towners that are not china employees these are the third party people they don't pull away agent exam but they're mixed in with this list and you have all these numbers all over the place i think that there should be some decision made on what you people think is important to be in an annual report your intent what the extent of it should be and how the document should be presented to the town and the taxpayer i think this is very nice it's very nice some of the department reports are beautiful it could have been written by p r agents others are almost  proclivities but the issue is still there so the prior annual reports include the following calendar year data the detail of the town meeting actions the assessor for board the balance sheet the five chapter forty came in for those of us that were around at the time there was an eighteen month budget no one knew what was going on the public betting ceased because no one could figure out how to bond a better job for eighteen month calendar period and many of the architects and engineers went under that year but basically the assessors report became fiscal in one nine hundred seventy five prior to that everything was calendar the balance sheet became fiscal by nine hundred eighty the expenditure detail became fiscal in one nine hundred eighty was no longer calendar in spite of the december thirty first sheets were deleted in eighty seven why were they deleted i don't know randy was near them so no one can blame him collectors who were part of became fiscal in ninety eight why did it take from thirty five to ninety eight to have some of the reports made fiscal and other things occurring over that period if we had to go fiscal and seventy five with the eighteen month budget why didn't the whole thing go fiscal information the saying is useless it doesn't give me any information which we had approved articles of town meeting which took away direct decision making in the special town meetings or the the transfer of funds later on in the process of that one hundred five thousand dollars thing occurred but other than a special town meeting i don't see any record pierre or anywhere of the transfer is when they were made for what sum of money and what date there isn't any record of this so we move from town meeting we go to a special we got a couple of articles to pump some money for some contract settlement or transfer and then we have some transfers to cover the problems of the overtime in the snow and ice account and everything else and then we come up at the next town meeting and we don't know what has happened in the interim i but we appropriated one hundred fourteen thousand for snow on ice annually it cost us four hundred five hundred six hundred thousand annually but we are told and i have it in quotes keep it  this number in case of an emergency we can get funding for the shortfall above our appropriation and a quote but only a part of the appropriations but where does this four hundred five hundred thousand come from that we have to make up comes out of randi's have a misconception massachusetts has a peculiar law of snow and ice and basically what it provides is you can only procreate an amount equal to the i should and probably it's a very odd lot but what it perfectly well we're going to expand because we're hamstrung by this very hard law the deficit if any the difference between what we spend it with budget just reported for the assessors and it's gets raised off the top of next year's taxation or at the time the council option it could be closed down to surplus revenue at the end of the fiscal either way basically what you're doing is you're balancing the over expenditure against available revenue whatever's left in the checkbook at the end of the year last year you spent five hundred seventy six thousand dollars for more appropriating one hundred fourteen what are you people idiots you know proposing this you know what where do we go with this and the question is  we say our budget is sixty two million whatever the number may be but there's another million out there for the overtime shortfall for the snow and ice which comes off of the reserve account up front because they're committed they have to be spent can't screw around with those no one small point here and i don't want to be obstructionist in any way the conversation but we do have new requirements of the open meeting law and what we published this discussion to be was about the t report so i just want to caution the board and we don't want to get too far afield of the discussion about the time before you start to get in the snow and ice and overtime and all that if that's the board's pleasure to discuss that that would need to be put on the agenda for another night who can i ask a couple questions on the annual report are we quiet by law to provide an annual report yes all right does the law specify what it looks like or what its contents are it sometimes it's confusing when you're talking fiscal year and calendar year and and what's in the report and what isn't the report you know i have argued in the past that that i think we spend a lot of money to produce the report and that very few people read it or very few people care about it and so in one sense it's probably appropriate dick to to raise the question what is the purpose of the ana report who the who is the customer of the annual report what are they what value do they get out of it and let's make sure that it's designed in such a way that those who use it feel it adds value to them and we're not doing things that doesn't the don't add value so part of the reason why i wanted to he would with dick had to say is that at least to get the board talking about the whole purpose of the annual report i'm not talking about snow and ice and over time but the purpose of the end report and when and who reads it what their needs are and to make sure that we may be reengineered the the process and the format so that it meets the report that direction perhaps the highway department should have a paragraph spelling out what that five seventy one is all about and how it works out but we have five seventy one throw it out there in the warranty and we're appropriate  hundred fourteen for the last eight years and we've exceeded it by a minimum of two hundred thousand dollars for those years and the report really isn't clear what this is all about  larry just me when i think is a critical point here is what's happened with tom's forces is if you look back at some reports historically they used to be much bigger and much richer documents in most communities and i kind of look back today and scan them they haven't changed a lot  e ten or twenty years but if you go back further than that you see the very different i don't think you'll find a bylaw back there that was you know years ago it was different but here's what's happened in massachusetts cities and towns we have found that nobody reads them so for instance you used to have in lots of time to pull one of them one of the hottest topics was the record of births births and deaths that was and then massachusetts  transmitted because of statues that have passed but much more so because of practicing the practices the reason right there are four or five cases yes six cases of town reports i will print a few hundred of them as it is and we've got six cases of i'm a year out leader later that nobody wants the and dick is clearly one of those folks is an avid reader of the time report so what ends up happening is around and i don't frankly know who the heck i mean you know what i mean you fly folks or the town meeting want but the convention of boat reports now to be honest is to put a little information in it was too costly and there's no public demand so you have you have a gentleman like derek who is a very avid reader who really takes this seriously who digs into it and wants a lot of information and that's very much does not reflect what the majority of people want so what we try to do you know we turn to the board for direction and we can put lots of information in the report it's kind of a matter of what would you like us to do with the public  bearing in mind that every page would put increases the cost right so that's kind of the issue and it doesn't in any way invalidate any what dick is saying although points it is kind of this is what the convention has become that's done annually the audit report has all the financial ation financial information and certified for accuracy one could argue that that should suffice and if anyone has additional information they can have it but it would be a lot easier than producing a whole lot of things and printing things  and you know i guess i hear from people that the only thing that most people take out of the inner point is how much everyone makes they go right for the salaries and they go oh my god this one makes more than the you know and and so you know you'd be a lot easier if you just had a three page document a list of everybody salary handed out and ok as you go it sort of maybe if you want to that seems to be the big piece of information and so i when i look at it i don't think people spend a lot of time reading the individual ports from all the boards and committees even though they spend a lot of time writing them i don't think they spend a lot of time reading the financial statements but if they wanted to they could read the report right out of the financial could just incorporate it from the from the outside auditors right into their it just seems to be the end of it they already know what the election was so they know who was elected a year before so the only thing that really seems to be of interest to people that i talk to is the salary information and you know you want to make sure that it's accurate except or but it but it goes back to dick's original point which is what do we really want the n report to do  and we ought to work our way backwards and if we have to change the bylaws so that it spells out what it should do and we ought to make sure that it does what it should do but it starts with if three people are reading it it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to reengineer process for three people it makes more sense to probably simplify it dramatically so that those three people can have what they want and we're not spending valuable taxpayer money on a tool that no one's even paying attention to frankly these days these i tried to find it today and it's the town report per se the one that every time is not in the black book it's not in the abstract it references the treasures or put it comes report and i'm pretty sure because you know for instance it says december thirty first calendar year we were on a fiscal year so we don't maintain calendar year department expenditure records we could very easily put in that report what we've spent as of december thirty first  the auditor's report is very brief in terms of the detail the old warrant has more detail than the nie on your work part because of the list each department for salary experiments capital outlay and other things you know you published out in the front of the book in terms of the appropriation action the town meeting why not leave that column next to the appropriation each year so you have last year's expenses reported in the book for each division that was voted for this appropriation for the coming year that would cover in my mind that the two items that you have the detail of what you expended and they had the actual appropriation  go as these yellow pages show a separate document with it which is more pages and other things remain that to me the big thing is that the audit is so general and  condensed that you can't get any subject matter out of it and the last prominent if i may on kevin's comment much of the the issue i recall from the sixty's going on the town meeting everyone carried this in the meeting and they were opening it up and jumping up and down once the material disappeared from the book the book doesn't have that kind of impact anymore so it could be two contrary arguments it lost interest because of the stuff that was remote removed or no one read it therefore the stuff was removed so i mean personally i i just remember getting it and i'm on the  goals list and then in a separate discussion it would give us time to think about the format and see what we want to see in a comeback identify what we might consider and then have a recommendation so these are three money items depending on how you structure it that if this information was in there again you could compare the snow storms of last year to this year why is it so high their share are so low that information with then be available the other recommendations of data restored to detail expenditure list you can do this as i suggested you have the terminating action the warrant has the two numbers side by side we have to ask ourselves why we printing a document that could be on the website and we ought to be asking ourselves if there is a better way of providing the information to the public and the level of detail i mean it just it's crazy to have all these boxes of stuff it's chapter forty section forty nine it's as follows quote the selectmen before the annual town meeting shout at the expense of the time friends the annual town report for the use of the inhabitants containing the report of the selectmen for the calendar or fiscal year proceeding said meeting the report of the school committee statements in tabulated form prepared under section of the town treasurer as provided in section thirty five chapter forty one and except as otherwise provided by vote or by lot of the time of such other officers and boards as consider expedient to make a report the jury list is prepared by chapter as required by chapter two hundred thirty four and such other matters as the law or the time by vote or by law regret that we could work with the legislature to change print that will make available i e through the website because that was written before the world wide web you have it just caution there's a lot of people elderly  would want to get out of the do not use computers so they're obviously not requesting the books because we've got six cases there but well my point is that i don't want to eliminate the written book because it's important for documentation they can count as not all the help and printed off the website for at no charge around they can go to the library to apprentice for free on the council on aging according to a study done by the attorney general sixty seven for science of the inhabitants of the commonwealth have access to computers which means the thirty three percent  will producing this document it is an historic necessity in some form be candid with you i think it's more of a tradition in massachusetts for anything when i go to join those traditions die hard in the master's legislature has shown no there and there was six blocks last year that you've you know they challenge why we're printing so many of them to make it more meaningful the minimum run through but i don't want to sleep i don't think any of us has any idea what it is that people would like in it you know you're associated with that as well paul there must be some models out there that some towns have spent time they research that they've studied that come up with a new modern approach and should we maybe benchmark against a few other places and copy their ideas rather than just trying to zero nine wage and salary report there were errors in the published report if the published report was an error we should reissue it in my mind as a public document otherwise  put together a corrected copy for the public domain this is public domain it isn't your private world no i understand that but you don't know who has a copy and i know that you have an obligation to reach out to them and i mean it just means certainly to have something on the website that says there was an error and here's the correction and someone can download it and have the evidence for the library and have it at the council on aging and have it here at the town hall so if someone asks for how i want you to structure a lot for you i feel that it has to be done because reimbursement i don't see anywhere even in the audit where this money is gong out to be a charter school and the question is there are parents and people in town that attend it it's a town activity just for clarity on how the funding from the town down fox for share of funding for the charter school is done that's a state assessment as we all know it's a large assessed the largest assessment on the cherry sheet that we receive but it never comes out of our coffers but your financial statement to the board and are using with the advisor shows an income of three hundred thousand for the charter school but no us they give us small components revenue which we do receive also on the cherry sheet in addition to deducting from us they also give us some credit for the net changes on a formula that goes back over three years so if the assessment went up by one hundred thousand dollars from last from last year to next year they'll actually give us credit for that that hundred thousand dollars on the top line and then give us the same math that the difference in a could be a negative for the prior year at a an eighty percent level in the prior year at a sixty percent level so as a formula so there is some revenue that comes in which we do see on the cherry sheet it's in that it's in that documents in the financial forecast documents that you get few look at the detailed  document that i provide that breaks down the cherry sheet you see that revenue item and you also see the assessment item so it is it is in the financial forecasting documents that are provided but it's not a voted item at town meeting  the only thing that we vote is we vote the net revenue that comes to that comes to the town bond issue which i think is a board it doesn't affect the report other than there's no information on this document as there was in years past of the bond issue and the payment schedules of what i do is provide that information in the financial statement it's in here but it's not it here so very few can't come to the town hall and i'm sure that they'll pop them a copy of that information but there is a motion on the table right is it that we had goals active so we take some time to write think about  one again i thank you for the opportunity here again my statement as regards the two chiefs don't know randy they've been a big help in supplying information made one comment on page two in the third paragraph down the first sentence at the end of the sentence this is just the bells explained that the expected development on rule one never really got started  i think what i said was the propose owning changes by those owning review committee were not completed i'll write that down again and it over t question can we just have a report on the health department cost yet to date i mean sixty four hours this period but i'd like to know exactly what it's about it's just about that whole situation you know the discussion just for ever seen anything not be an atlas event rarely and there's nothing on that agenda this year that's not going to be you know so it's you know i just i just i'm going to be there i don't typically i mean you can designate me to vote trying to make you feel guilty ninety one of you think you're going to be there then let's designate the person and if you don't end up being there no big deal but if one of you thinks you're going to be there we'll send it in for you and then you're allowed to vote if you do go yeah it's  a question and i i think we talked us to sandy at one point about this and these folks come seems like every month every every quarter and is it the right way of doing it and b is it more economical for them all and or the town to come for all these one day like a license as opposed to a license that would give them the authority throughout the year you need to have a license to issue them we do have one right now  press we put it out on the i don't have the board knows but we have the select draw on it frame we can call every home right so we put it on that that i should be done in the morning the school has its own version of that phone dial system and they're putting the school close schools obviously close as well so i just want to advise the board of that and that was i just want to make sure and take advantage of the camera for folks that are watching to