to ask the question is not here which jo white so that kind of jerry i'm putting my schedule off off track again right off the bat but that's what life is in this game is it soul and i really hate discussing file it so i want to make sure he's comfortable with that aspect so that's why we still have this this question out there and that's why i wanted it to be the first thing on the agenda so we could get that and move on but he's not here right now and the sixty one which is ten sixteen i do not want just a few members discussing and i want all members discussing so i don't know no one told me they're going to be late back from lunch or not coming back from so this kind of puts a crimp on what would we like to do and the rest really to be honest with you i don't want to start discussing items that if this governance conny management form of white you had informed us that you wanted this to be taking off the docket but when we deferred it i was informed that we need to file it so i wanted to get your permission that we may file made as we go through if you if you don't want to move on a matter and you want to completely go away can or it can be deferred and then roll over to the next council term or i move to file a three dash thirteen and county communication and and the attached kind of communication i can't find the mr chair just just a point of clarification we don't want to file counter communication zero nine two two nine because that's throughout this whole docket this whole agenda today we just want to follow correspondence appreciate mr coach's comments i prefer that in the future we start with county communications that is more timely and more up to date you know still going back to two thousand  i don't for receiving future amendment considerations that is more timely and appropriate to the current council or future council as chairman thank you thank you i am their was my instructions and that's the way we've done it in you well aware of that so maybe something that we need to work on in future a future agenda item and how we present these items and still keep them active if you want to rule it over to the next group but yet have it die down a fight is a new item if the reason i'm interested in filing this is that my my main intent is to have folks that are appointed in appointed positions feeling as though they have to participate in funding you know funding elections of those for whom the they work and i know mr okama have the item coming up regarding  the core council and their deputies and prosecutors and their deputies not participating and i think so i hope and in filing this is that we can possibly look at fifteen dash one fight fight i would like to think the members of the special committee for their commitment and their hard work so what i'd like to do is start of right now we've had the actual proposal there has been some other information disseminated amongst all of you and i would like at this time to call them on corporation counsel who she to discuss a few of these questions that have been brought up  this issue we do have an attorney general's opinion from the for the of co what yoda county of co i which i believe is not as relevant to our situation as to their lunch and i had a nice lunch and i should have eaten lunch i think resource people in the audience that i can call upon to discuss different issues if needed and so but i will pass dissolve to all the members need to look at it each off's look at it they came back a g came back and said basically the method of appointment three bodies covered by civil service except for the following positions in the office with the shias in the office of them here and also positions of officers elected by public vote positions of department heads it to on try to conform to the ages opinion if they're saying that they need to be a department it may come with the permit right now the special committees recommendation is what i've done is amend the existing chapter for the managing director to make it the main mission directorate include the powers that the special committee has that there's a need but it would be a department it i also exhibit to this would be with the salary commission i put in a freeze basically basically saying that except for provided otherwise it's unusual be put because usually department heads are usually on a c i'm standing in this case that managing director be an it department it would also control all other departments as well as appoint the other departments but i don't see a problem with that and it does test the proposal as i stated that perhaps you can discuss alternatives if you don't  question that's it for oh well thank you and then again i appreciate your your response because these are some of the concern that upon reading the various agencies opinion and in your opinion i knew would and we had an opinion from our side so we had all these different opinions like i said many times if you get three lawyers in the same room you never get the same opinion so i glad that we could have a meeting of the minds and really make it functional so that all of us can at least have go ahead now i appreciate mr coo she's input on this because it does i think make this more easily defensible with respect to the a jesus opinion of the climat are in their opinion to cohen a they did mention that i guess somebody brought up the county auditors position on cohen and the county position must be exempt under existing civil service laws for the same reason explained above because this is described in the charter in a way that makes it a department head so i  appreciate what mr bush is done and i think that solves the issue and i'm not sure that we had an issue but i think with mr coo she's amendment says it's much clearer thank you appreciate that and this helps us to move along in and now we can make rational decisions based upon what we need here versus what other opinions and again there will be a point where i will also be requesting the a g to look at our entire package she there's a couple on the stuff that you handed out but my first one is underneath right now currently the office of the mer we have the budget director which is not really a department it's actually underneath the office of the mayor and then we have a d and that is not a specific department as well with those folks then now be under the managing director i couldn't quite find it in the forty nine pages of changes to the charter but but and also would that also make them exempt from by seventy six desh seventy seven subsection the are exempt because they're in the office of the mayor i don't see any changes in his charter unless  so i would think they would still be in the office of the mayor if they would work to be in the office of the managing director department managing director or well along those lines then you have here on an exhibit one number for employees in the department of the management shall be exempt from civil service i know currently there are three oh i don't know depends what happens with the budget what we did with the three or four civil service employees directly under the department did those employees lose their civil service status or can they do they have to go under a different department because it says here employees of to respond to your question if this body i don't see a problem so we can remove civil service status from those four employees or they just have to move to a different department management section eighteen point dash one point three powers do the functions the chief technology officer officer shall operate and maintain all information technology and telecommunications systems for the county so i'm assuming that means the council stuff too because right now there are two completely separate systems and currently mr parker he doesn't touch our stuff under this charter he would be in right maybe it shouldn't be a department i'm not sure specially since it needs to be above all like you mentioned the department heads are pretty much the same level except for maybe the manag director since that's what the changes are going to be but i t needs to be above either as a as a division of the department of management right now i believe that managing directors yes yes that's because they need to be above all the departments they need to make be able to make decisions for those departments ok thank you chairman thank you other questions for me as far as i'll use that as a suggestion at this time we know we're not getting into amendments at this point but what he's been brought forward any questions ok seen on let's move on to the recommendations forward actually i think i have another question for mr khushi on the would there be any problem as you see it if the department of information or information management was left as a part of the managing directors office or is it was essentially establishing the office of the managing director is there any reason why that responsibility couldn't i've made it pretty clear in the in the past i'm supportive of us providing this option for further discussion and there's been a lot of chat about the fact that it too quick and we we need to have more time to evaluate this but the my perspective is that we have between now and the general election for the people who who are part of the special committee on governance to assist us in continuing to communicate the pros and cons to the public and inform the public and in a significant way prior to anyone having to actually take a vote on it i do feel that it will remove a lot of the politics involved in selecting department heads and deputies and other point to positions i certainly agree that the turnover can be very costly because it's plate putting in place people who may not be totally up to speed on the job but they are  and so the turnover does have a very significant cost to us and in lost effectiveness and timing i also feel that if we move this forward we're at least giving people an opportunity to learn more about the the options and it's critical for us to continue to to be as transparent as we have as we possibly can be and so this is a and item that i feel is a very good discussion item i think it's responsible for us to put the possibility out there and i think it's it's time for us to have a of a robust discussion about it and so i think this is not the final decision by any means it's the beginning of a decision beginning of a discussion and the final decision would during the earlier discussion today or the testimony today the subject of turnover costs was mentioned and one of the testifiers said that that was not taken into consideration in that report it was given to us by the close the government i'd like to clear that up because in the report that i have from cost the government i see it so i'd like to clear that up but we do have the chair of the cost of government if you specific question that you need to ask you not you have to go yeah you can i am sorry rules of the council sorry stronger form of government and a council manager form of government was something that was mentioned in a lot of the testimony that we received both within our commission as well as in the special committee and we decided to look at would there be demonstrably differences in the amount of turnover that would occur between a council manager form of government and a strong mayor form of government we are able to separate that into do different things first of the chief administrative officer which is either the council manager itself or the equivalent mayor or managing director depending on what the municipality called it and those of department heads we were able to find evidence that shows that the amount of turnover that would recur and the associated costs with it would be no different between a council manager form of government and a strong mayor form of government at least in the chief administrative officer having that led to our recommendation that there was no demonstrably cost at least in that office when it comes down to department heads there was insufficient information for us to look at so for the chief administrative officer we were able to find information on tenure for chief administrative officer as between their forms of government and council manager forms of governments in hundreds of different municipalities and that's where we gather that information from and that information is included in tables within our report itself we were unable to find the same level of information at the department head level because of that we made no distinction we were able to make no conclusion as to whether those turnover costs would be greater or lesser than what we currently have here and you assertion by the special committee i would hope looked at whatever available information was there and if they had additional information that would allow them to say that i would i would love to see it we looked and were unable to find the same systematic amount of information brought up that it wasn't looked at at what the salary is in all of the jobs that are under the current mare's office versus what we can move to manage you director or stay with the mayor whatever versus other counties to first reason why we did not look at molly county's budget for say the department of the mayor's office versus those of other counties is because we were looking at what would be the possible difference of changing from a strong ma council manager form of government any difference in cost that we found that could have existed sure we can find them i mean every department we're not just talking about the mayor's office every department can find ways in which their costs could be lowered the question that's key is rather if changing to a council manager form of government would lead to lower costs in those departments any kind of analysis looking at mali county would be insufficient for us to make any  change to a council manager form of government would lead to those decreases it's not possible it's not something that we had the research nor the time to do because of that we refer back to literature that looks at these different departments and found overall that there was no difference in the cost savings between a strong mayor and a council manager form of government in a similar manner if the special committee has any evidence indicating that a switch to a council manager form of government would lead to cost savings in the mayor's office we would love to see that evidence so the other thing that i was interested in is we're talking about needing to do something here because we have communication problems or whatever they are i didn't i want to ask you do you really feel that it is necessary how else can we achieve what we want to do changing our  government is led i want to know i think the answer to that is less if if there was a reason for the change we would be advocating for change the reason why we gave the recommendations that we gave was because the change specific the question that we're looking at which is a change to council manager form of government would not result in a lot of the the changes the benefits that many people believe that there will be based on the evidence that we looked at now appropriate changes are the ones that are proposed in our recommendation essentially allowing the county council the ability to have a vetting process with the mayor's office by clarifying to a very large degree the the qualifications for those department heads and improving the communication and transparency in making those department selections we see those as being the recommendations that will achieve to a large with most certainly some of the other ones are ones that would achieve those things especially sense cost savings limiting political influence and those kinds of things are things that we found would not be achieved by moving to a council manager form of we found it very interesting that a lot of the evidence that was cited by the special committee on governance actually have information concerning whether a council manager form of government really does limit politics and local government in particular is the council manager survey that's produced by the i c m me every several years and in that survey there's a question that indicates that's asked to these council managers what are some of the issues that lead to pressure in your office or leads to you resigning or leaving office and within that survey question thirty percent of those council managers that respond to that survey mention politics as the reason the pressure that they have we see this is being a strong indication that a council manager form of government does not completely insulate council managers from politics similarly within the special committee of governance report there is an article by jared card that was referenced that also indicates that the assertion that politics is limited by adopting a council manager form of government is largely not backed by academic research that that report in that article is included in both our reports as well as the special committee's report thank you very much i think it's a very important matter i haven't had time to believe that politics is going to get out of government thank you thank you thank you that we could get to make those kinds of assertions the only instance in which we make a dollar and a dollar and cents a statement concerning a change of council manager form of government is in regards to the salary of the  council manager versus the current salaries of those same positions here in mali county so there's a table inside of our report that looks at information from the league of city managers of california which is an organization that represents city managers in all municipalities in the state coverage for that report is over ninety percent meaning that they have almost every single minister polity in the state included in that report as well as the size of th and the salary for the council manager in each of those municipalities the average salary for a council manager in california for a size that's comparable to m somewhere in the neighborhood of two hundred sixty thousand dollars a year we then looked at this is then compared to what we currently pay for our managing director here which is proxima one hundred thirty thousand dollars a year we assume that there would be a deputy county manager currently our salary commission and this is in discussion with the salary commission we talked to joe talent who's the chair of the salary commission and got his input on this because they're ultimately the people who make these these salaries and he stated that in a lot of their previous deliberations that the deputy manager or deputy department heads make approximately ten percent less then those department heads indicating that the council manager deputy would make in the neighborhood of two hundred to two hundred thirty thousand dollars a year just for those two positions and eliminating the office of the mayor completely that indicates an increase of eighty three percent in our chief administrative officer salaries just for those two positions it further consultation with the salary commission we asked them would you even make this kind of change essentially doubling the salary of the managing director they said that they couldn't say one way or the other but that in the deliberations that they look at and the reasoning that they have in making those salary changes which is also in our report a process that they look through they could not see increasing that salary substantively when there's no substantive increase in the duties of the office essentially that we're not asking them to do any more or essentially just giving them one hundred percent pay increase we then ask them if that would then lead to knock on effects to the other department heads because the last time that there was a salary increase at the department head level all department heads received a salary increase once again they said that they were unsure as to whether that would occur but operations is within the home rule situation but david's cite those two cases say indeed when it comes to personnel matters the status teacher is seventy six seventy seven seventy seventy six seventy give orders is the word the charter uses to county employees other than those appointed to sue into the article or a section since potentially this new person is in appointed rationale should be used so it's a good point i've never and i don't look at it but i would say you know for me i find it disturbing when we trying to merge two separate branches of government that was intended to be specifically separated for beer is principled purposes or founding fathers and by our county for follows that i find this movement toward trying to consolidate the two branches into department of management and hopes to comply with the a g s opinion i thought that was really creative on the other questions that i would probably pose is i realize that there are various jurisdictions in the united states have them that do have that form of government type of management that is in direct or type form of government and my question would be there there is more of a percentage of other jurisdictions in the united states using that type of form of government as opposed to the mayor's strong their form of government is there statistics that show that one is more efficient than the other and why were the other jurisdictions switching over to that type of form of government and is some type of historical tracking to show question i have in my mind are are personal questions because the only form of government i've ever known so far is the strong showing their government and being in office for three terms not so happy but i'm sure there are there are things that need to be tweaked and this issue's been ongoing for several several councils and maybe that's the way the system is but the way i recall some of my compound questions there at multiple and three or four questions all i want just to be more efficient in your committee chair q are you so the question was since this is this is a common practice a common manner of government for i think it's about sixty six percent of the  city governments are size you said why did some change back and that was something that was brought to us we had examples of cities that had converted from county manager to back to strong mare and vice versa and i looked into those examples and think most of them were related to scandal i mean there's no other way to put it that they were related to scandal th philandering getting caught the whole government getting the dirty laundry water thrown on them and they changed back in one instance it was an issue the community felt strongly about about a shopping center and they threw everybody out new council all over a shopping center and reverted back so sometimes what happens is the manager the council passes makes a decision that is perhaps not popular with the populace and when the when the manager carries it out he gets a lot of or she gets a lot of the slings and arrows and sometimes that it that results in just him doing his job and the population not happy with it and they go after him now that was one of your questions i think the other one was you said that you have only seen one form of government and that says strong mayor council my experience with the county manager and city manager is what happens is they attend every meeting they're sitting here listening to what you all have to say and you can say it in public and he knows he can he or she can count and knows that when the policy is determined the policy is determined by the majority and no matter what that minority goes and tries to leverage the answer is this is the majority decision in this is what i'm obligated to carry out does that clarify chair yeah it does it does it somewhat sometimes in my mind i think you know any type of form of government whether it's going to be a strong mero or a manager type of government are always go have these type of conflicts or difficult situations and so where i sit is what is the path of least resistance which is what will accomplish the most the bigger bang for the buck when we try to move this county into the next generation or to the next future and so that's what i'm thinking you know do we stay with a form of government that we know has somewhat been in existence ever since the creation of this government or do we move forward and see what happens and see if there are changes that we need that can be addressed through this type of management form of government that's what these have in my mind which is the better form because we have i haven't had the experience of the latter which is the management government i would like to you know actually sit down or at least visit a jurisdiction that is very successful at what they do and so i would probably feel more comfortable we can do pile in the sky all we want analyze this analyze that just like in law school the professor thought he knew everything but when we started practicing law you realize what that act if the guy didn't know not guy you know it's the rule getting down into the field getting into the court room getting on the council floor of the jurisdiction and really tasting eating living and breathing what difficulties they have and what successes the they have endured and applying that to our county will it work or will it not that's what weighing heavy in my mind well i can tell you that the politics will not go away the politics the politics will not go away you all will baker the mayor will pick her with you all but the administration will just keep filling those pot holes in c n n that garbage is picked up every week on time and that's why you our personnel director and his deputy here for the questions that will be brought up a little bit late all called him up to the floor with no objections thank you now you may go ahead and ask me she for your question and then we'll go on i think  when i look at the county manager form my interest is not that or my expectation was not to take the politics out of what we do because that's that's just part of what happens around here my interest was  to remove the politics from the selection process ford department has deputies in all the other appointed positions and within the county which is pure politics in many cases in some cases we have people who have stepped into positions that are highly qualified and ready to go but the question i have for you is because you're the only one i believe in this room who has actually worked under this form of government does it take the politics out of the department h and held responsible for the failure and short comings of a director and so there's yang and yang to keep them doing their very best it's a collaborative effort very often  it's just to is there sometimes politics well if you say well the department of public works gets more money than the department of water and there's the mean back and forth that budget time you know why are they getting you know more yeah there's there's some of that politics but basically what you're talking about is professionals talking about professionals who are trained to do the job and their focus is on the job getting those streets paved getting getting aid to the roof fixed one of the few know it's that that wouldn't to department heads or the mayor or anything else i'm assuming that the county manager set up that the same probably exists because if i'm not mistaken the council would still be the ones to effectuate policy but it's up to the managing director to or direct the department heads to carry out the policy not specific directors but in your experience were the would you characterize what the what the managing director or of the county manager was receiving was policy requests as opposed to directives or were you able to provide a directive to the county manager go specifically do that task you know you w two and there were directions there were discussions about by the majority of how we can slow this down or stop it or keep it from getting on the ballot or whatever that kind of thing but those had to be done in open session with the with the manager there and so that the openness of the government prevented individuals from going in directing now would i on occasion say i've got a constituent who is furious with the department of public works because the director she says was rude to her but yeah i'd say can you take care of this if that's a directive yes that's a question but you understand what i'm saying that on the small things can you take care of this yes but on the big things i think you all are so i mean i'm so astounded that you are able to do as much as you do with the way that your hands are tied administrated play and i know poured on he had me say to you what they all say the charter doesn't allow that you know that we can't do that we can't talk to a department head to me that just didn't make any sense could department did we meet with department heads on issues for instance if there was a subcommittee on fo able house a yes those department heads came in the planning department came director of finance came they participated in those meetings in those those committee made it wasn't a big deal i'm astounded when the mayor says my department heads are expected at budget type to come to the budget hearings well yeah it shouldn't be a problem it might sorry i digress my next question is that there was a point made that the administrative salaries might go up if we go to the california averages but i was you know a little surprised that they didn't take into consideration other other changes that might take place in the mayor's office but in your experience what was the size of the mayor's office for what was needed to be carried out ok well government of administration we're talking about the mayor's office strictly administration with the directly related to the mayor and the managing director directly related because you know there's  and there's a by the things in the mayor's office and he said no we didn't think it was relevant well how do you compare costs if you don't have cost what the actual costs are here now aren't relevant to the report that doesn't make sense to me so i called i called every county and ask i told them exactly this is exactly what i need to talk to personnel said i need to know exactly how many people are or are submit their support and we turned out to be the winner we have more than anybody and i think that's relevant because a mayor with the power that mayor would use the staff the whole staff and the director so would use would not have nearly the kind of staff because they would depend on their department heads that is so the staff the volume of staff that's here the administrative assistants that are in the mayor's office now would be dramatically reduced so would agree that the reductions there can easily fund whatever other changes would be written yes i think so i took a little a little offensive th of government we left that money issue to down we studied all the other issues and yet paul gets up here and becomes an expert on what we not that's what i prefer today to be informational and that's what it means to be so you're seeing if i hear your answer correctly that you would see no substantial differentiation in salary based upon the changes appointing a managing on check as we start getting off track quavers don't i appreciate that thank you the other question i had it was the comment was made that up in a survey of managers that thirty percent of them listed  politics as still a concern i'm i'm guessing that if you asked mayors probably a hundred percent of them would say it was still a concern do you have any perspective on that well yeah because if you think back i think back to when we had a very split council and we had an initiative on that underway and yeah there was there was a lot of back stabbing him among the council members and the manager just tried to i think keep us from killing each other but it was that he played referee you that think about what you think about if you do that what the causes consequences there would be so he was a guidance counselor priest a little of everything so yes that was politics he had to deal with and just my last question thank you chair was in your experience well let me give you a little background here we often hear the comment made by the civil service people well this deputy or this director is going to be gone in no time so you know we just have to you know we run it we just have to wait till they move on in your experience where you're hiding it when you're hiring people for their experience does it or does it not provide a career path for those civil service folks to move into as a rise in the ranks and gain experience and and have the capacity to do what some of these appointees hired to do but are not readily able to do we absolutely and in both governments believed in promoting from within we wanted to give opportunities i can think on that on the twelve years i think we had two retirement said department heads and one two people department heads that left to take positions in larger institutional history your institutional knowledge to to retain that and let it carry on in the organization it's good for everybody so one one challenge that we have with the current system is that there's not a clear view of being able to move up in the ranks of this so that's got to be disheartening for employees who are who are capable and qualified thank you thank you and there was no specific questions asked that we felt we needed your assistance so thank you for responding to my call and if i can according to civil service i think one of my questions was if we we went to the county manager and put the language in there that says that all of the staff of the managing director shall be exempt from civil service there are currently five believe for staff members of the current managing director that  civil service except for the for the managing director and the deputy managing director but i don't think i'm qualified to make a comment with regard to whether the if you change an ordinance if that would change everything  this would be a charter change that then want to start a chain one other thing that says employees in the department of management shall be exempt from civil service i think there's a great portion of hawaii by statute that probably needs to be would that mean he would have to lose his civil service status i would think under seventy six seventy seven that same statute chapter section in each our us department heads are exempt from civil service so if you make mr also many sections in each of us eighty nine and eighty nine c that would need to be amended in order to make the county manager at the the  the representative of the county in terms of negotiations and collective bargaining i say that because currently definition the definition of the section of the eighty nine eighty nine c you know points out that the mayor of each  respective county is the is the employer so that we need to be amended so state law in terms of collective bargaining would need to be estimate give me pretty much nothing definitive to base decisions on no not at this time i thank you for your responses could do that on our very in even in the current scheme of things we rely on departments to give us position description because they're the most familiar they're the subject matter experts with regard to that particular task work yes so we would rely on you know someone familiar with engineering to tell us what an engineer civil engineer three or civil engineer six should do and what the difference between a civil engineer six in a civil engineer three you know is we're not normally the subject matter experts we can ask good we can ask good questions and we can do a lot of research but ultimately it's the department the new government into who's in charge of the government so we have the council would have the final decision but again i guess you're just not familiar just wondering if it be a combination of this and we have time to work on all these variables that we're referring to all these questions morson brought up was very very very well thought out and i think most of ours also brought up very similar questions when something like this would be brought forward if passed how this would be implemented this is more of an implementation situation than the actual decision making we are at this point but these are questions that i don't find to be asked right now but i don't think anybody has definitive answers at this point in chair you made a comment just now that may mesh in with what mr motive is here for you said we you know we've got two years to implement it but a of these implement implementations may be charter changes and so including what we've got to do for civil service so we can't just say a that we think oh we missed this one so we need to add that in we actually have to do a charter change and if it doesn't get adopted in the next election the following election then where are we so i think we need to be clear on the stuff that  you know personnel d p s is not so clear on we need we need to know so we can get into the resolution so that we can get as not only charted changes he also mentions h r s g yeah so now how do you do that one right i mean that's even another step that we are not even and we're not even guaranteed of exactly but you know i there's so many facets right now and i'm not trying to go too far off track because then we'll never get anything done today so with all of this being said do you have any more and if there's anything else that comes up we'll call thank you gentlemen and we star more to do you really want to retire you look at all these exciting times that i had of us yes you have a good one thank you sir  you know i have a sense we're getting closer to what we want to do but let's let's continue on this trip any further questions who i think we've beaten this this horse to death it really comes down to my mind in my mind i should say is what do you want to do do you think you're ready to bring this out to the public and let them vote on it or is there more to needs to be done it's really the question that i have to put on the table and that's the question i have no personal feeling one way or the other you know i'm not afraid to let people decide because i greet you my people are smart they know what they need to do let me tell you i've been talking to them and they know exactly where they want to go i'm not afraid of that way but again do we have enough there or would we have like we're talking about h r s's h r s regulations that have to be changed and would they be changed in time or would they be received i don't know i'm not in charge of that division i'm not in charge of state and you know all the statements especially the way to love us and what seemed to be more soul i will start with you mr carroll because i promised you i'd let you give your comments when it's commentary time and it's commentary time go ahead mr carroll it's nice to be forgotten yeah you know i never forget you sir never and i'm just trying to dislike because it's good to have you right now go ahead you know as you sit or people are smart  watch it three times mirrors never made it to their second tour we have before us a proposal that's probably right mold split it was a lot of people months if we should passes so it's four months the people have a chance organizations though people that came before the don't want to do some people came forward do want to have four months all out and trying to inform the public what happened and why we should have a miniature i do not see any don't so great at this time of pressing to so i think they have the time to go for months that the public could work the people could work with the general public who are because we have certain people who are motivated organizations we've got the union people we're we've got other people we go we have people that are motivated organizations that colleague over to my right here and i agree with some of what the things that he has mentioned but i have my own opinion i i would have liked and i wish we had had more time to do what we've done today prior to making a decision my it was a crazy idea i had in my mind and i must have gotten it somewhere that these reports that we got from the special committee as well as the cost of government were going to be brought to us and we could sit here with a bunch of them and discuss the nuances in the recommendations in depth which we had not had the opportunity to do today is the first time they were really digging into this i've been watching meetings and reading and reading reports and trying to educate myself and i still feel that i think we should have had more open discussion the benefit of that also is that about this public education that we're talking about it's when you have these debates and when people hear both sides of the issue that they become impellor to make their own decisions and i don't think enough of that has happened what we've watched is a lot of the committee work but the actual interaction between us and testifiers hasn't happened on the floor until today politics in my opinion will not go out of county government i don't care what kind of form of government we have and i was very happy to hear somebody agree with me because for me it's a fairy tale government is above politics and i don't think you can run away from that i've been in it for ten years as a council member and many years prior to that working very closely with government and i'm sorry but it's very much about politics we have conflicts and i agree and i don't think those conflicts are the result of the system that we have i think the conflicts are because of the personalities that we happen to have they just don't match their strong people intelligent articulate people and they get in there and put their viewpoints out there and go head to head and i think it's healthy for basically i'm sorry that we do get in gridlock but  it's just the way democracy works democracy is messy i think that if we go into this new system of government that i'm more concerned about the balance of power and i think that the council in my opinion will have too much power too much invested power in just a few people and that makes me uncomfortable not every everybody knows everybody doesn't know i'm sorry but i must live in a world with regular people and i spent a lot of time away from my house this past weekend went to several events and everywhere i went people are totally confused about what all this means they do not know the details of it do not understand  have some really strange impressions about what's going to happen they don't read the paper many people do not take the daily paper they don't watch out because they might have direct t v and don't even see it don't go to forums and don't pay much attention because politics turns them off so what they know is what they've heard or what their friends told them but complete information i think is not coming out there i'm sorry those the most that are in this world and live this life of politics and government we're imbued in it and we think everybody else is but they're not people are doing other things they're trying to earn a living i am very sure that if people understood what we were doing here today that this chamber would have been packed and we would have had a lot more than forty six testifiers because this is changing that we have done government for over one hundred years for example people made it clear that they want to elect their mare and we're told yeah we're going to elect a mare but it's very hard to make sure that they get the other part of it that the mayor will be largely ceremonial and that his customary duties or her customary duties will change dramatically we heard today that there were a lot of questions and somebody said why bother to answer those questions i'm afraid that we put it on the ballot and we'll have a lot of unintended consequences because we can sit here and really vet them out and check out all the legalities which we're talking about today one of the testifiers today asked me to leave a legacy and that legacy that they wanted of course was for me to approve being on the ballot today i'm sorry but i am not comfortable doing that the legacy i wish to live is one of people making careful detailed studies prior to making and thank you very much chair and thanks everyone for the discussion and of course all the work that got us here today and i'm of the mind that this is to be put up as a vote to the community and i stand behind that comments you know i would love for this to go out for the people to vote on let me just let me just read the statement that will be on the ballot shall the charter be amended to establish a vice structure of governance for the county of maui where in a managing director appointed by the county council shall be responsible for the county's daily operations the implementation of county policy and an elected mayor shall be responsible for representing the county in intergovernmental affairs with the authority to approve or veto bills and nominate boarding commission members that's a mouthful it's but it's you know  a decent paragraph that question is answered by thirty nine pages of charter changes my first question is to mr khushi is don't charter changes have to be  grouped together so that people know what i mean don't these have to be all individual charter is specially the different sections don't they have to be in individual questions as to who is or can they be all be right so as we all know when charter amendments come out there's always see on the ballot is that one paragraph and not the thirty nine pages of changes that are in there yeah we have got four months which i don't think is a very long time either to tell everybody what each of these changes that have meant plus we haven't gone through this committee has not gone through these changes we've got to do that before i could be satisfied with it going out to the the folks because i the voters we have to know what we're sending out to them we can't implement stuff  after the fact and because a lot of it's going to be more charter changes so we have to be very clear what we're going to propose to the people to vote on and i just want to remind members that the strong there was new in the sixty's before that from way earlier times of the board of supervisors where this body ran the whole government went out and in a mystery and they decided to go to the strong mare because apparently it wasn't working out well back then so we have to remember that there was concern about there was talk about you know the mayor's budgets too big they've got too many people this body has the authority to cut that budget i still have questions i'm giving orders to the department heads can we can't we if we make them managing director department head which is what this  amendment is then they see the c e o or can be a department head and a c e o i'm not sure i'm just i got a lot of questions so i think we still need to go through this a little bit more or a lot more before we can get it cleaned to the point where it goes on the ballot i'm a going to go and i am i tend to agree with you a little again i'm here to facilitate to let the public seeing hearing what these going on relish doing something that i think all of you should bring forward or seen will and we need more work on it it's your call me thank you i i cannot help but so who would make that call the token mayor or the managing director that's just fine example the other i want to commend the committee for the the hard work  i think it was the environmental department was strictly for the project their natural resource is sustainability conservation restoration we went around and around and  then we tucked it under the environmental management director today i don't see it as fully implemented because all what people were looking for was to have that so called department division or what have you we haven't figured it out yet or the department haven't either so it's there was much in my opinion a lot of not understanding how we were going to place this particular charter amendment based on some of that but what is more important for me going out to the outlying districts and having the opportunity to to hear them out so when i go more like this past weekend went to many parties and the conversation comes up interaction except for testimony timed during the day when they could come out here i think the intent is all meaningful i personally  say this i'd like the balance of on the executive and the legislation or legislative branch and they say we don't get along or we have our conflicts sort as a united states president and congress they have their conflicts but are we going to overthrow all what's in been in place since the establishment of our constitution  this does not mean that we can't get it out but it has to have more betty do i underestimate our voters no i don't but it's our responsibility to get up there and truly give them what we have before them i do not as a former member of the charter of twenty twelve i do not it was not something that you just threw out there it was constant constant listening to people or the same people even if it's the same people who showed up the day had their their reasoning is just a matter for us to please a lot everyone to or at least sixty to eighty percent of that is allowed to come in and say now we understand put it on the ballot for us who are ready you know and not to underestimate the intelligence of our it's information communication is the key to to our responsibility at this time i sorry i cannot agree with mr kerik to just get it out there in four months and i it's just me  but whatever is the consensus of our body right here i can go along and support whatever we come up with but i think when you talk about all the different functions that come under right now the administration and we we up for election every two years so what's the timeframe frame for the managing or the county manager people is not satisfied with some of the situation do is the concert chair from white to goal is it important for that person to listen or is it more important for a m listen i'm sorry i come from the the little island up located but we we do take pride of being involved in keeping keeping on an eye on what's i personally don't feel this proposal is ready for the ballot and i'm going to just treat a forward with it i find it interesting that we have not had the discussion  i think there was testimony but what have we done to show our part in making governance work i think that was a very fair question and i would say i've had my disappointments being a member of council at times i thought we should be bolder we chose not to at times i thought we should have gone to the right we went to the left so you're in amongst ourselves we have our differences but i would say this approach i don't think is the silver bullet and one thing i would say i prefer to tweak our current system before i even look at changing the system and that's why for me i prefer to end a seven yes it's my it's an improvement of the current structure without making such drastic changes that the community is more willing to be open and seen if that adjustment to the current structure makes a difference we haven't i mean let's look at our history of audience but we talk about as culture they fall and did what work for islands and i would say because our county is made up of islands and island communities unique to its own families that have been here long enough to have sit we've lived through the board a simple voices and now we live to chart a form of government to keep those of us that have lived through those things have seen the good and bad of both systems and will say that nothing is perfect do not get personalities screwed up with structure yes the current mayor and i we have our differences everybody knows that i would tell you there are areas that the maronite will agree and support each other we have in the past and i'm sure we can in the future just not it's structural issue it's an issue of different opinions on priorities to make a change for one person i see in this proposal you need to change five people to make a change you've been chilly into a new structure because that is what it takes to make a difference in the management fight but it's those six if you terminating then you've got to do with all of those potential personnel issues again i think we should sheet and put it out and not say we're going to wait two years to work things out i've gone down that path you know it's more screwed up because people need to know before they make that decision what they're committing to  finding out what they have to pay for after a decision was made that they never were told in advance what the hell buys a house not knowing what their mortgage rate is what will work it out after you say in the papers and you commit to you know i got education off to no better than detriment you know for me i think if this is really we should put it out but i don't think it's really this is the first time we've talked about as community members as council members at this point in time as an elected represent i think our history has shown that when need to we'll make those changes so for me you know mr chairman i'm not going to support this i think ten seven is the more appropriate vehicle for discussion and present into the community and i say that because go back six seven years i presented this many members said on that council to what was my response an appointment the strengths and weaknesses of various individuals wanting to serve and i prefer that change be made in four years that wait for a contract of a person i may not even know so it's the best interests of the people or but counsel the five council so for me chairman i'm not ready to support this proposal at this time i think it's something others that we should be asking the people for consideration and i think you for mike to thank you very much and i guess you don't buy a pig in a poke anymore is this is an issue that is so big at this point that i i really do believe that we need more time to really look at the issues i was expecting past with ordinances line by line paragraph by paragraph not just let's take action so i i'm a little uncomfortable with the process that we're going through right  now just getting bits and pieces of the information here and there although we have had the opportunity to read their reports we've got the minority report and we also have the casa government report which both contradict each other so you're left with a middle ground with saying ok if i can't get a full recommendation by either entities then at this point i'm  mostly to say let it let it be done by the people the decision by the people if we're going to take action on it that's where i would stay right now my position would be at this point but if the chair is more willing to take more committee tie which is that is the more appropriate suggestion is to allow and in additional two days of committee to really go through this and maybe even bring  in the different committee members of both sides and have a panel discussion get more information i would feel comfortable swinging my full support either way but at this point if you're going to press me for a vote i would vote with reservations to pass this forward to the council because i have no clear direction at this point there is no i haven't had the opportunity to fully on that this and and in spite of all of the long hours that this special committee has conducted i have not had the opportunity to stand as much time your so i think it's fair and i think i may be a little more comfortable with this issue than than the others because i've been a little bit more involved in it i'm i'm comfortable with the issue i'm comfortable voting it forward and i'm most comfortable with the law and the people to make the decision after a lot of communication goes both ways  when when we decided to have the hearing and believe we had decided to have a full day allotted just to this issue rather than all the other issues that were on the agenda today  you know it's up to you chair i'm i'm ready to vote today but i understand the concerns of others who would like to have a little more time to consider the various we made the initial decision to form the committee there was discussion about having council members on the committee and there was a very specific request from the public that it be made up of members of the public so we've placed the responsibility in their hands and like our committees they came up with a vote that was in favor of by a margin of one vote we've had that happen here but it still ends up in the lap of the council to make the final decision i think they've done an outstanding job there has  been you know there are two sides to the story there are those of us who are comfortable with change and a specific change of scene that others are not comfortable change i'm just referring to the specific this particular change managing form of government so i was hoping that we would have brought that one up first but that's that's up to you chair thank you well mr goodwin and to all i have been noticed require that haven't  because i learned to listen before i react in and see what i really think first of all to answer your question the rationale behind putting all these others behind this because if this pass many of those would be deferred they would not be necessary i'm not saying ten seven but many of the others so to have discussion on many of these and to say yes or no and then come back and then have this whether yes or no then you have to go back and then defer or file bills where was not my idea of white i've given this the whole day that's why i have wednesday for the rest of this because i would dissipated a lot of discussion i peed a lot of opinions facts and figures being thrown out well one of the things i am disappointed with is there's truly not been a lot of facts and figures thrown in front of me on which more efficiency in government and i think you all agree we're you know we hear oh maybe this will cost more maybe this is eighty percent year and this and that i've heard all kinds of numbers i'm a businessman unless you show me the facts i can't make a decision ok so that's let me start with that first i was thinking the special committee and all those minority majority and everybody in between air staff all their hard work because this is this was a punt by the way by discolor to you folks to come back to us to give us some recommendation ok so that was the punt i've got the punt back now the ball's in my court so we've got to make decisions and i don't think another day or two a week because we're running against a clock miss miss will brink what's the final day for first reading because then we have second reading we if we missed any of those dates it's giving me wins the morning to work on this on a continuum so that i can recess and continue this on i've heard across the board some scene i'm still confused i still don't really really not comfortable i need more time but if i don't get more time i'm going to void this week and i have others i really am confused i need more time but i'm going to vote that way what i just tells me if you knowledgeable people have lots of questions yet what do you think the general public for months on it's going to have when we get four months or not how many of them will still have questions i believe a lot of them let me tell you i meet with the people every day in the churches and in the supermarkets and their questions to me are very simple is this go room for change i wholeheartedly agree with you folks out there there is room for change theories things that are knesset dated and i think the real cause of the real challenge we face is how do we get qualified department heads and deputies in place and not being changed over every time there's a new mayor or a new council or gold you know i think that is the fundamental question and how efficient government can be if we're not changing over every four six eight whatever years it may be and i'd like to have this opportunity to discuss the matter of advancement keeping people in the departments knowing that there's a chance for them to advance in these positions because that's the real world we live in i've worked in management i started as a stock clerk and became a manager in sales i worked as a crew member and became a manager in mcdonald's i knew there was a place to go and i had to work hard to get there but i knew where i wanted to go and i think people should be afforded that in you've been in government i'm a firm believer of that all this being said i don't think there really is in my mind a definitive answer it's your heart that has to decide today ladies and gentlemen you are the council what do you want to bring it forward and you know i don't know how much more time i can i'm at this point where i would read it read it take a vote and vote your conscience fold your conscience ok and this moves out fine if it doesn't then then that would then then it's done because we've got all these other ten amendments that we have to work on and this one really holds back many of the others should we move on what not and many of you said judy that if this does improve then we agree dish yes with that so you know there are opportunities to correct some of these challenges that you face ten seven would be a big part of it may still come and thank you that would be a big part of it so i think we are ready to make a decision whether we want to move it or not and i think that's what my recommendation is going to be to the body think everyone i've listened very intently every one of you have been very good points every one of you have your passion everyone have your understanding of what you think should be done and the committee members and all of the public out there who sat here and listen to all of this questions and answers for all the various departments in and whatever of the experts i could bring up to you marge thank you for being here for  here thank you i appreciate you guys coming up and sharing your mano and i we really really thank you as a community but maybe this is another issue i'd like to not see this die i'd like to see this go out to the communities and have more discussion this is an election year but that's not on the only time we should be doing this we should be doing this all the time and if we really doing more changes need to be brought forward hey then maybe let's start right away let's start in january get your  to say that i've gotten to this point where i believe every one of you have a have your mind made up in one way or the other and i think that's fair and this way we can move on and i can move on to the other eleven or the ten ten  amendments and or i could be for a lot of them if this is accepted so any more questions before i make my recommendation they should think you because if you asked me one more question i really would have been hurt all right if there's no further discussion the chair would like to entertain a motion to pass on first reading the proposed resolution entitle proposing an amendment to report a revised charter of the county of nine hundred eighty three as  the managing director shall be appointed by the county council to the form to function as the county's chief operating officer with the elected mayor retained with the powers to represent the county and intergovernmental relations approval or veto of bills and nominee members to boards and commissions and that file and of to file county communication fourteen dash three one three within and the rest to be read to be read unchanged so i need to add that really then i'm going to resist this meeting to wednesday because we're going to lose one member and if you're going to discuss it then i'm going to because this one member has state she has to lead by four thirty and if you're going to discuss it further then i'm going to have to recess to waste the morning get something to the people to vote on but we didn't go through any of these except for the one thing in department of management there are thirty nine pages of changes to the charter we didn't go through any of them i think it's highly irresponsible for us not to so if we don't go through these changes i'm going to have to vote no i would love to go through these changes and take the time and take to the our duty to get this line by line which the coach line by line i have no qualms with it but if it doesn't get to the did lying then you take responsibility and i'll leave it at that that's fine it's our job to do the right you know what our job is to tell me what my job is i'm just saying discussed it ok chair if i could just interject matter what happens here in the next few moments if you want to take it up again on wednesday to not to for that matter just move it to end  chosen to leave the partners and there we need qualified people for those positions for a interesting that once that we talk about what should be the qualifications of what councilor to sit in a seat to make those decisions to a the key job as an appropriate zero as a legislator or how much do they understand frayne and seen in county funding programs grants taxation yet we are concerned about the departments and what council should make this decision and yet we don't have qualifications interesting scenario because i would think that they would be more concerned about how qualified are we to make that key important decision to become professional and why we have remarked this type of discussions has canceled i am going to go to five thirty take a recess for dinner and we're going to finish tonight and mr culture we're going to fall every one of those questions you want to ask and you'll start from one to thirty ok and everybody has a chance to discuss each and every provision in the charter so i missed myself i'm making this because that's what they seem to want and i'm going to let everybody have their way because for me i say you guys want it i'm trying to get it done ok on trying to get it done so if we don't get it done don't come back to being blame me ok all right so let's go on to five thirty to take a dinner break to six thirty and we'll come back and finish this baby up and it is obligations but i would just like to ask if we can continue this wednesday morning we're not going have enough time because we have three hours on wednesday morning and then i got to look for another meeting period so my decision is to move as much as i can tonight and that way we can make a decision if not by wednesday morning i mean unless you guys all have major major i have obligations i'm going to have to call and cancel them like you guys just said that's my job our job to get it done so i'm just trying to accommodate the statement meeting i love when i got that down boy or do i get some changes real fast if you know it's our duty to do to do the job of the people right and that's what we've been told and you know we had a just a heavy discussion with one of members on that regard and yet i have a time killed any thank david that if i don't feel it don't get done and so that's another issue but with that being said you know i'm going to go to five thirty and i'll stop  stop there ok and we're going to come back on wednesday and try to finish up because if we don't finish up then i'm going to have to look for other days and i'm not going to be after the council meeting on friday so i cannot i cannot and i want so i know it's important ok so what you want to cover it one line by line then i'm going to allow that to happen and that way you will cover all the bases and hopefully then everybody will be comfortable and m advice from the department of personnel services the turn national city county management association and other entities as requested by the council can we change that so that it's a reputable city county management association just in case they change whatever we're specifically naming a specific organization that i think that we've got to be careful with why it's in there i guess it is what it is is a reputable association i guess but you also have the other entities as requested by consuls you could be quick or you want it pretty much gives you  whatever leiber you want except for we must use that associations advice no you can have other entities view to competing in to another other and i'm just curious why that i mean i don't know don't ask me de thank you because a parent there's an american society of public administration a few other organizations so i'm just curious why that specific one and is it ok to do generic you're just looking for a generic i think in a professionally recognized management organization and the reason for that was because they have the about because we had several presentations and a lot of a letter from them and it's a long standing reputable and i think if that's your concern then you can discover it by saying anything not using the name in particular if you want curious as to why because like i said there are a few other organizations so we didn't hear from them ok so i'm composing a change of what you just allowed it to be in the question i said shall be based on publicly announced criteria of professional qualifications that are based on advice from the department of personnel services the invite international city and county management association and other entities as requested by law by the by the council next i did miss the one because it's so small is the the duty but see it's the powers of the council to require periodic in special reports from all county departments concerning their functions in operations such reports shall be requested and submitted by and through the managing director same page to number five sorry i just the way to look at thank you so the reap there are further places down in here where the my head is that there are numerous locations where reports are given to the council and now the managing director i think it should still include the mayor and some of these as we get go no change that's all changing you know that that was their housekeeping so i'm fine with that ok well you know let's go back to the one they were discussing before she went off you got it madge what can you tell madge what peach page two of the came you want to help her now i've got it you got it ok ok page four number three submit an annual report of its findings and recommendations recommendations to the mayor i would rather leave the mayor in managing director just just clarification thank you and then for some reason section three point three nine point four in definitions was taken out in the thoughts on that let's see  number four ok so definitions were taken out well the section three dash nine point four was repealed oh oh i have no idea why that was done operation agency or and in here somewhere we need to put in the i think mr coo she's amendments exhibit one for sure regarding the but i guess that section eight so in articles a page for article six six section six ash one basically we're saying that the executive power is now handed to the managing director except for his otherwise part that's what to be civil service because it says department has not appointed by the mayor but it just says department has that right mr who she has seventy six what about department heads it we are told dead department heads who are asked from various departments all personnel who takes a department heads position have returned rights with this change would debt have an effect on the return rights because right now the way it's set up if you're and we've had a number that have gone to a different department as a department head and then at the end of the that term they returned back to their department to have what they call return rights and sometimes that's three four sometimes six seven years down the road and that position stays open my question  returned right to their old department or once they become appointed by this new managing director they would lose that return rights which the i'm not sure but i would think it would have to be depending on what page five number five is a little this is where we're discussing an item seven and fourteen as well so if we go with  council has approval of all directors this is where we would do most of that so i guess you may want to deal with that this is where the chicken in the eighth thing comes right now we chose on in these in the resolution there are actually references to each department in the appointment of each department head by the managing direct county manager mostly this or the terms of the pointing and the so for the current system you agreed to serve the current the mayor his existing term of contract i don't know the answer i would think is to mention directors gone in the department it is subject to resignation because he got appointed by the main sheet director curse but it's not the whole intent of this is to provide stability in government and that's to say that if managing director i can count a manager was appointed and that county manager resign that everybody every department head would have to resign is not the intent of the committee it would be that things would continue until there was a new managing director if that managing director had a problem with department heads to remove them he'd have to come back to the council it's that it's that wasn't the scenario that we envisioned it was stability was always a scenario that we were looking for so is to have stability and that stability is if there's a contract if there's a contract his with the county but but i have to tell you most department heads don't work under contract  they don't have contracts but seldom are any of the people below them and as you know in the hotel business general managers move all the time when they move everyone else stays in place unless they're being hired by some other entity but  said the the purpose of this is to provide stability so that we have people there who have the experience they get shared with the example of the deputy manager in a county in maryland and so i what i see when new general manager comes in some of those with management people are moved leave let go whatever then whatever term you want to use but they're always changes when a new general manager content but again this is not a question council and his term as long as it's contracted for now the managing director appoints the directors of the departments how long is the term for hit you at will your your at will but can be but the managing director is the only person that can terminate that director i don't think that was what the intent was i think th director and corporate corporation counsel in sixty days if we have to do all of them i think we want to add make that ninety days i hate adding time but i think that would be something that needs to change from sixty days to ninety days if if we end up approving all the department heads just on being something that needs to be looked at i don't know if you need to change it right now what's in the charter so if if it needs to be changed it's got to be voted on if we if we just keep it sixteen we say oh we need ninety days that's another election cycle so how about if  just had with a thirty day extension possible that's the same thing yeah either way ninety or that and that's only if we decide to approve all of it and you're making an assumption too that if a new county an initiative head of any department may be assigned to any staff member or members of that department by the administrative head no other adding managing director basically thing go over the administrative head if he doesn't want to fire him so i'm not quite sure have i think the intent to this was if the managing director wanted to assign a person to assists and as national project department he director so the mare when it was when the way it is now the mayor does not get to go and say so and so's acting director unless that director has left  so i'm i'm just wondering why that was added because it wasn't that power wasn't given to the mayor now it's given to the managing director i think that the call was to provide opportunities that are provided in businesses out in government i think those are normal opportunities and it's not it's not to be a handicap i management ok mr chair i have some some concerns about that lying i'd like to have that removed but that's up to you and the rest of the members so what would you like to remove can just say oh you're the you're the director i think they're adding to record for the day period or you cure or they can switch the department of the planning department head over to the water department and vice it wasn't a power that the mayor had before and now are adding a power to the managing director so mr white i'm not sure that it's not a power the mayor has before because this this to me is simply a management tool to make sure that the department keeps doing what it's supposed to be doing so that you can take anyone in the department of the department head least you can take anyone in the department assign the powers and duties to that individual got that and that's you know that's what i have that ability as a hotel manager somebody managing the county should certainly have that ability but but that takes away the council's ability to say wait a minute because it says powers and duties and functions of the administrat department may be assigned to any staff member or members of that department by the administrative head or by the managing director doesn't say in any absence can they see the managing director and say well now you're you're doing all the things the director supposed to do various people all positions to take become acting manager and it was consensus that it be the attorney but there were the there were several different  i could not be on the take because it would have been a majority and that would have been a violation of some grand terre sorry to interrupt but nobody has been designated by the special committee to speak for damn their committee report is what they did and what came out so the committee report is really all that can be considered at this point in time i think speculating by a committee member is inappropriate and it's questionable whether try as much as possible to finish up and but i see some questions that need to be answered so i'm going to ass won't corporation counsel and my committee staff we're going to have to try to address if there are either ideas or what i call suggestions like that in this area in the event of managing director is absent or disabled you know are we going to put in a deputy director and if that's the suggestion i'm going to put beagle council approved temporary head yeah what a council you would approve a temporary hate deal either one or reappointed zero or have rehabilitated and or you know has been able to come back or you've hired somebody else but that we can't you know so i got a good work on the finer languages again you know so i just want you to know that i'm thinking as you move along how we could best solve these problems but i don't have all the answers to all of questions but i will find it because i will go to staff as well as our cooperation council and try to come up with the best we solve so not to be libor the point i would like to move on we decide on and let us bring out some language and bring it forward wednesday and then we can go for it do you have something you want to add i would ask that in your review of what you would like to present and share with us on a wednesday morning regarding to subject if you'd also look at since we already have a description and a civil service position called deputy managing director what is the future of that position and i would still like for you to review the requirements because currently concerns into account i would appreciate those thank you thank you and we've been notes of that and still come by and we will definitely take that into consideration i got a lot of work ahead of myself any more i would like to move on go ahead mr culch just real quick on number which i well depends if you're going to go with mr amendment or not that's the first question i would assume we're going to go with his amendment or otherwise it's not going to work with h r seventy six according to this this person will now be a so i would probably ventured to change i'll change that language to incorporate this right amendment so there are a couple of differences in there and it i think significant potentially number three employee on page six number three employees in the office of managing director shall be exempt from civil services and shall serve at the pleasure of the managing director that is not added in mr coo she's amendment i  well the next takes us to page seven section is seven five hours to do these functions the mare in we have number one is appoint the necessary staff for which appropriations have been made by counsel ok then we all then the rest is all deleted until we get page eight where it says a number of five would have been a misc oh no number two sorry up at the top present messages or information to the council with which in the mayor's opinion are necessary or expedient ok it's you that's already in the charter they're just making it number two number three is approve or veto bills passed by the council number four have a voice but no vote in the proceedings of all boards and commissions that's what's already in there and then or five number five is have the authority to call a state of a state of emergency in the county as provided by law and that's required by us yeah so and then preside over the councils organizational meeting until the council chair has been chosen that's what already happens and performer oversee the county's conduct of intergovernmental relations i'm not sure what that means but i can understand it and then actually i such powers and powers and perform such other duties as may be prescribed by this charter or by law so essentially the mayor is going to call the state of emergency can we we may want to put something in there in conjunction or after consultation with the county manager i don't know that's a tough call there's a tough one because and i want to see it this way sometimes state of emergency is almost immediate you will not even have time to to consult i mean if it's a tsunami you've got time you know year what the committee had discussed i correct in saying that that's what your intent was to give them air that option of declaring emergencies when necessary i think it would be better to describe it we didn't want to take it that actually mean oversee the counties conduct of intergovernmental relations i think what is what is that i keep goes to the lead that goes to the national conference of mayors and what ations to to now and this is the one i would be questioning right now the mayor asses x x is sure actually as our spokesperson when he goes to the legislature right before me right they go in front of as and they make their requests now would it be the stream mir's and the managing director from mali county making the request or would the mirror still fall under that guy's right under the intergovernmental yeah now that would be my question does that fall this way or does the managing director go down in his place i guess that would be my question because now it's a direct request from another agency for monies or other provisions that are provided by the legislature so i guess that would be my question where we'd known them when i asked the question no match i think that would be considered  own also we have various entities now that are involved in our legislative process you know we've tried to expand in and make sure we have a wide spectrum of participation down there doesn't mean a change very much when we still come  dispute that but i think we're making hedrick headway in that respect but any question that needs to be answered is what does that mean as far as intergovernmental i can understand this is the city's that's easy i can also understand different relationships that come very important i'm sorry it is the body yes this body needs to understand that because to recommend that change would then really change our dynamics at the legislature better or worse i don't know but it does change it so again managerial and what is ceremonial i think we could i know what a ceremonial life but his managerial one now makes it very makes it different well mr chair i can tell you from my experience  city manager county manager always you see in the background always deferred to an elected if there was a beating and the elected was there the elected but is deferred to by the manager manager's job is to stay in the background while i drink you for that i just my concern is if it's fisc or if it's something to do in a department or changes in something the department is doing or needs to do right now the mayor can send out something to his director but the way this would be after the film correct send it to the managing director and then the managing director then would send it down to whoever the director in charge so i gain something to look into  and i now try to come back with something that will be palatable for everyone and if you have any ideas please let me know ok moving along to coach taking his chair the section seven point six they can see an office it's it seems reasonable in case that this is for the mayor now it seems reasonable it doesn't go down three levels as as the managing director would  and as it currently is it doesn't go down three levels it pulls out the managing director and goes directly to the director of finance to act as mer that depending on what we do for succession of the managing director may have to change if we put finance director as the third in line that may have to change over here because you don't want to one person could be both m other position we need to put in there that's the only concern i would have with that one backbone of all the departments here except for ours we have our own department information management so we need to deal with that as well as it needs to be above all the other departments in my humble opinion because as mr coo she said department heads are supposed to be at the same level so you need somebody above them to be able to say look we need to do this for instance our maps project is going on as we speak and it's all being done at a higher level than the department so ok so let me i will sure love that mr kirky come talk to us certainly not i don't think we i will start with you and this particular issue and move on and i will definitely try to get some answers on some some resolution to the other issues that we've discussed prior to this and again we still have a lot more to go and we're going to do the best we can and i got a i will be asking mr white if we can find a special another meeting date because i don't think we're going to be done with this alone let alone anything else and and i knew this would be very time consuming i would hope to be a little bit noisy but i apologize i wasn't that great now not that good sorry ok so no further discussion i'd like to recess this meaning cherilyn ny name oh yeah i'm sorry before you recess i just like to say that i agree with much of mr couch that information technology is the backbone of all departments and should be dealt with in a special way and i think as you go through it or as mr kirky evaluates it i'm wondering if it's  much leave it the way it is the managing director would have as part of a division of his office the information technologies operation because well it again we will discuss this w