time who were pulled over by an officer who has no particular i suspicion relative to them you don't dispute that he had reasonable suspicion to believe that there was criminal expertise certainly the officers entitled to make that judgment based on what the officers serving whether it's four o'clock in the morning and nobody else is around your honor the the that the response to that is somebody which it's kind of injuring the business district of springfield and this is discussed in the records that that on the road they're traveling which is fourteen it goes by a hospital this kind of a business district in the passes through some residential neighborhoods and then i guess the main street which is two blocks or actually a block and a half where they're stopped it's a business district again in the seven eleven is part of that business district and so i don't agree with the assessment that four o'clock in the morning is an unusual time for people to be out and about on that street and in that district well that's what the officer testified to and that's what the district court found as a matter of fact in determining whether or not he could articulate reasons as to why he wanted to take down his client so what do we do with the i believe the officers testimony is that in the neighborhoods where he was patrolling he saw no other people but he stopped these people have soon as he came out on the fourteenth which is the main thoroughfare and a soon as he got within range of the business district so i don't believe the officer said or the courts found that there was nobody out and about in that area i think the testimony was you know that he i didn't see anybody else on the street in their cars ask them very period of time that he was patrolling and looking into the car prob so i don't understand how you can make that argument for actually having any evidence in the record to support what he just said i think i do i think the officers testimony about not seeing any other cards about during the time that he's exploring the car clouts is because  do you have a very deep derelict in the officer's duty to stop and inquire of these people as to whether they might possibly be involved in the active in the criminal activity that he was investigating not only do i not think it was derelict but i think it was a violation of their fourth amendment rights i think that no case no one says that it's ok to stop people at four o'clock in the morning just because they're the only people out and about what you have and we know about the direction in which they were walking and as i read the briefs here there seems to be strong different characterization tell me what we know from the director as to the direction that these people were walking when the officer first saw them and then when the officer were coming toward him on the they were walking toward the area of the criminal activity rather than away yes correct yes and i and i need to say two more things in response to that point we also have mr harris his testimony  that the officer was correct that these people might be involved with the car clouts with the fact that they could have been walking west found on fourteenth street crossed over the street just past the intersection of fourteen about how the defendants were walking when the defendant stalled the officers now that may have been when they were headed in the other direction it may have been where they've already got into the corner but we don't know actually anything about how they were walking you know who or what direction they were walking in when they first saw the officers patrol car down the way so i don't see this all this direction five more minutes that happens to come across these people fairly well traveled and that's probably overdue for the morning thoroughfare and then he says there are only a roughly a block a block and a half away because there's no fifteenth street on this particular neighborhood and then i asked the question i think and i do it twice and it's on page one forty seven of page one forty eight and looking at our math by the way i could have a little larger map on my extra because i also point out and yellow the areas that the  the car that i saw was was basically in the middle between fourteenth and sixteenth now when you saw these three people were they which directions were they walking my questions are they walking towards these cars that you just seen or walking away all walking southbound away from the car question and does that tell you something based upon your experience i go on the answer from the officer considering the condensation look like he had been recently in why these three people were the only people out to me and were wearing black wearing gloves that made me suspicious of them that they might have done this what about the direction they were walking some find of when even on this they were walking away from it people don't walk away towards  the answers that's correct so they were on the side of fourteenth away from where you work the answer is that correct ok now the question that i don't ask it doesn't come out is which side of the street on fourteenth just on the left is on the south side of the fourteenth to say listen i'm going to try what you have is an officer who's on a trail and he sees the three people the only three people he sees out before in the morning that are in the vicinity and we're not talking a long distance we're talking with a flock a the officer having a reasonable suspicion that they're wearing dark clothing and wearing gloves now putting this together in the officer's mind given the task he is followed given the circumstances of the neighborhood and given what you've seen is the only people out go to hypotheticals but they're at the right location at the right time for what the officers observed so that's why stop let me do this one now let's assume and i understand that in your heel there's some ambiguity in what's being said here  a pleasure i agree with most of what i've heard you say in the last several minutes i would add i just been asking questions i understand and but my answer is yes i agree with that and i would add to it however that to the extent there  determinative factor i think it is here because there are no other factors what about the long coats the black oil if it's november twenty ninth at four o'clock in the morning in oregon and but l or at least what is the record show them doing at the time and since the record does not clearly establish when they first saw the officer that's a difficult question to answer however when the officer first then the officer on the driver's side of the car which when you parallel are along the road the driver side is going to be for the road rather than for the sidewalk but he did not see them approaching the cars he did not see them engage in any sort of movements he did not see them do well he doesn't want the officer to find what he pats of now those may be the reasons why he continued but they're not related to the officers reasonable suspicion because the officer had no knowledge officer cited it is one of the reasons why the stuff in the now is one of the actor even when combined with the other factors of four o'clock in the morning in the surrounding circumstances would you think that holding would be inconsistent with