subcommittee will come to order the subcommittee is meeting today to explore whether there are risk factors or present incident indicators of terrorist activity identified by intelligence and law enforcement organizations to enable them swerving attacks while preserving let me risk repeat that preserving individual's right to privacy and civil liberties today's hearing is entitled violent extremism how are people move from constitutionally protected thought to acts of terrorism abdullah mini was a member of the west potomac high school wrestling team his coach described him as quote one of the last people unquote he would expect to turn to terrorism  twenty two year old howard university dental student was quote tolerant and engaging unquote these two men along with three workout buddies from the local gold's gym in fairfax county were recently arrested in pakistan allegedly attempting to engage in jihad again u s soldiers in afghanistan their disappearance didn't raise suspicion until one of the boy's family found a farewell video soon after soon after and their loved ones frantically contacted the f b i for help in locating them and to almost all who knew him nadji bull was ozzie was just a friendly hotdog stand vendor who like to joke with his customers not as it is alleged an al operative plotting an attack on the new york city transit system people didn't know what to make of major nidal hasan but surely no one anticipated that he would carry out the worst domestic terrorist attack since nine eleven in each of these cases appearances proved far different from reality today this subcommittee seeks to gain understanding of how people who seem like anyone else those who are capable of interacting socially with friends and colleagues and in many cases are athletes and scholars could be recruited or self recruited to train to be terrorists my eyes were opened four years ago when a terrorist cell in my district torrance california was thwarted by a tenet of law enforcement excellent police work unable to sorties to connect the dots between a series of gas station robberies and plots to attack local synagogues recruiting offices and a military base the folks who were planning to do that are now in jail this isn't a new subject matter for our subcommittee either since early two thousand and seven we have held a series of careful hearings to understand how someone with radical views which are protected by our constitution let me say that again radical views which are protected by our constitution becomes willing to engage in violent behavior and in some cases to seek to inflict maximum harm on the maximum number of innocent civilians our earlier efforts have been criticized and in my view misunderstood by some civil liberties groups we drafted a bill creating a commission to examine and report on what causes an individual like major hasan to attack it passed the house by four hundred four to six in october two thousand and seven only then did the a c l u a witness at today's hearing which had participated in our meetings object to it and many just agreed that such a commission should examine terrorist recruitment on the internet and yet press reports suggest that at least one of the five alexandria a man just arrested in pakistan posted online comments praising you tube videos of attacks on s army convoy hit by a roadside bomb and in kabul that is when the alleged recruiter contacted him you two radios may have inspired them to travel to pakistan it also appears as i said that the taliban recruiter used coded messages and facebook to communicate with them in his written statement mr macleod ball of the a c l u who has been very helpful to this subcommittee suggests that quote protecting our first amendment freedoms will both honor our values and keep us safe unquote of course we must protect those freedoms but we also must prevent recruiters from cherry picking kids from our communities and sending them to become jihadists overseas i hope our witnesses can help us to separate the intellectual process of committing to a political agenda protected by the first amendment from the operational process of moving from nonviolence to violence which i'm sure everyone on hearing panel is agrees is not protected we need to be able to intervene at the right point to stop individuals in our schools neighborhoods religious centers and jails who are priests swayed by extreme violent messaging wh through the internet friends or mentors to commit violent acts before or it is too late so what are the triggers the number of americans who are either being recruited or are self recruiting to carry out terrorist attacks here or abroad is growing so what are the triggers recently numbers of young somali americans were recruited in minneapolis to join the al shabaab terror network in somalia their families were stunned to have carried out suicide bombings so what are the triggers and then there's david headley the american citizen who has now been indicted for his alleged roles in the mumbai attacks last year as well as for plotting an attack on a danish newspaper this case is doubl important to examine because he was an american recruited to attack abroad so what are the triggers in these cases terrorist organizations not only successfully recruited americans but then provided the requisite training to enable those americans to carry out attacks we don't have too many chances more too many more chances to get this right there is a growing list of people  suspected of being recruited and ready to carry out terror attacks in our country and abroad if we fail to find the right way to protect both security and liberty the next attack i fear could lead to a shredding of our constitution something none of us wants i want to welcome all the witnesses in addition to michael mcleod paul we will hear from doctors stephen wine of the university of chicago my friend zogby of the arab american institute and can create craigan of rand all of the members of the subcommittee who took ost of protect and defend the constitution and to provide for the common defense look forward to your expert analysis and suggestions for tackling this growing threat terrorists only have to be right once we have to try our best to be right one hundred percent of the time i now yield to the ranking member for an opening statement i thank the madam chair and thank you for this very timely and important hearing and i thank the witnesses for being here today homegrown terrorism is happening right now and right here in the united states and as we said here today someone or some group of people is in the process of being radicalized to extremist ideology most will limit themselves to radical thoughts and speech that are undeniably protected by our constitution but there are those who are on the path toward violent acts of terrorism and their life's work is to try to kill us unfortunately finding and stopping these individuals is like finding a needle in a haystack recent cases highlight the fact the united states is not immune to homegrown terrorism and the murders at fort hood just north of my district by the doll hassan last month remind us not only about domestic radicalization but how vulnerable we really are to an attack thirteen innocent people were brutally murdered and many others injured on november fifth by the hand of a u s citizen a doctor and a member of the united states military the threat is real and we're still at risk in this nation case after case demonstrates this fact major nidal hassan said his allegiance was to the koran and not to the constitution tried to get his bosses to prosecute some of his patients as war criminals regularly describe the war on terrorism as a war against islam and used a presentation at an environmental health class to argue that muslims were being targeted by the u s anti terror campaign and was very vocal about the war very upfront about being a muslim first and an american second daniel patrick boyd a u s citizen and six others were arrested in july charged with conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists according to the f b i boyd trained in terrorist training camps in pakistan and afghanistan and then m probably one of the biggest threats we've discovered recently in terms of a cell in the united states working on behalf of al qaeda born in afghanistan u s legal permanent resident living in colorado charged with conspiracy t weapons of mass destruction david headley a u s citizen who attended terrorist training camps in pakistan was living in chicago in planned attacks abroad we've learned that he was not only planning future attacks but has now been charged with helping to plan the two thousand and eight attacks the moon by india and just over the past few days we're learning about five young men in virginia just outside of where we sit here today who traveled to pakistan reportedly reportedly to link up with members of al qaeda it appears these young men were radicalized just miles from where we sit here and the danger is that we are seeing more and more of these cases more more individuals who self radicalized over the internet versus being actively recruited by al qaeda individuals who are turning radical extremist thought and then turning to terrorism mr smadi in my home state of texas in the united states was illegally in in this country living in texas was arrested for plotting to blow up a skyscraper in dallas texas according to the f b i smadi made a decision to act to commit a significant conspicuous act of violence under his banner of self jihad  of several recent cases of lone wolf plots the patriot act is designed to give law enforcement and intelligence officials the tools that they need to detect terrorist plots as provisions in the patriot act are set to expire this month including the lone wolf provision we must not forget that we are still under attack and the threat is very real waiting until terrorist acts occur in innocent men and women and children are murdered is not an acceptable answer we must be able to detect and intercept terrorists early in doing so we need to answer some fundamental questions how can we identify who is on the path to terrorism without infringing on the rights of those exercising their constitutional freedoms are there trends in patterns or the risk factors that make an individual more or less susceptible to going down this path and i look forward to hearing the answers answers to some of these questions and madam chairman i hope that this will be just the first in a series of hearings on this topic and that in the future we'll be able to hear what the government is doing to help understand and combat the we hear from those and others about what is being done and what should be done to stop this problem and finally i believe it is important to note that the government alone cannot solve this problem this not only is a national security problem is it is a community problem we must work together with government religious leaders educators and community groups to reduce this threat and i would ask that the witnesses discuss not only what can and cannot be done by the government but what really can be done outside of the government and what that madam chair thank you let me just point out to the ranking member that we have held a series of hearings on this subject really for the last four years and made a series of site visits the legislation i mentioned was based on a careful series of hearings we held a hearing a few weeks ago on the threats i know that you were detained in texas on official business and not able to attend that but we will continue to focus on this in the hopes of getting it right i now five minutes for an opening for opening remarks to the chairman of the full committee mr thompson of mississippi thank you madam chair for holding this hearing more than eight years after nine eleven attacks is not particularly surprising that we faced a growing ever changing threat from bali extremists the department of homeland security stood up in the wake of those attacks has evolved over the course of these past years yet even amidst changes they are constants on one hand we are challenged by the constant and continued threat posed by terrorists both transnational and domestic with challenge by groups who able to locate and recruit individuals willing to penetrate inconceivable acts of violence on the other hand we are supported by the constant efforts of our dedicated law enforcement intelligence and homeland security professionals who help defend against that threat their other constants and that we too have a duty we must remain vigilant we must be vigilant to ensure that those who bear the brunt of detecting identify and disrupting and dismantling efforts by terrorists to strike at us our homeland in our allies have the adequate resources and to use to do so we must be vigilant that we do not slip back into a september tenth two thousand and one mentality regarding the sharing of information no matter how we say it knowing what we know connecting the dots getting the right information to the right people at the right time we're talking about the same thing an environment in which information is shared is an environment in which better decisions can be made and ultimately one in which people are safer found we must also be vigilant that we are doing everything we can to break the links between these groups and individuals they are grooming for violence we both law enforcement in our community must keep a watchful eye open for people like jahi on broad smadi but we must also be vigilant that those efforts resources and to play consistently in ways that respect the privacy and civil liberties of american citizens and do not sacrifice nations but at reason barry glare that we have the witnesses here before us this morning i hope subcommittee are reminded that under committee rules opening statements may be submitted for the record i am now it is now was really my my privilege to welcome our witnesses this morning we will start into his very busy plans for the month i served as a political and policy research arm of the arab american community since nine hundred ninety two doctors i v has written a weekly column called washington watch on us politics it is currently published in fourteen arab and south asian countries he's authored a number of books including what affleck americans really think and what arabs think values beliefs and concerns in two thousand and one dr zagi was appointed to the executive committee of the democratic national committee and in two thousand and six was named co chair of the d n c as resolutions committee he has advised me personally and numbers of us here for years on the muslim community and i think it's very important as we review this subject again that we understand the fact that most members of the muslim community are law abiding citizens and really want to help us get this right  macleod ball is the acting director of the a c l u at the washington legislative office this his office works with congressional offices on a nonpartisan basis to ensure that american civil liberties are preserved and protected macleod ballers practiced law and held leading roles in the political community including serving on presidential campaigns he has worked as an attorney afforded him the opportunity to argue significant cases on privacy and federal regulatory authority and  before this hearing before his testimony here he wrote the subcommittee a very thoughtful letter which i have read in preparation for this hearing on how to understand this problem and hopefully how to get it right and he  reviewed some draft legislation on recruitment that we are considering and i very much appreciate your cooperation with us dr wine is a professor of psychiatry and director of the international center of sponsor's to catastrophes at the university of illinois chicago currently serves as the principal investigator of the national institute of man mental health sponsored study on adolescent refugees from liberia and somalia in the united states dr y has authored several articles and books including testimony catastrophe narrating the traumas of political violence he was awarded a career scientist award from the and i am a services based research was refugee families finally dr craig and his senior policy analyst at the rand corporation  she is also an adjunct professor at the university of maryland where she focuses on terrorism related issues she served three months on general staff in iraq in two thousand and eight and her rand paul publications include the terrorist the dynamic terrorist threat sharing the dragons to terrorist groups and the exchange of new technologies without objection the witness statements will be inserted in the record and i would like to start with the doctor's oddly to summarize his statement for five minutes welcome d thank you madam chairman and members of the committee the issue before us is indeed a critical one it concerns our national security to be sure but it also represents a grave challenge to our national character i come at this exploration from several vantage points some of which you mentioned as an arab american leader for three decades in my community having worked with arab americans and with other muslim communities as well as a ph d in islamic studies a lso someone who did post doctoral work in the impact on religion in societies under stress as a pollster who with my brother john zogby has intensively pope old communities of interest both here in united states and europe and across the middle east and as a participant leader in ethnic coalitions in this country that has brought me in close contact with new and not so new americans watching them move from exile politics into the american mainstream let me begin with a simple observation despite real concerns that we all share about recent cases involving the arrests of some young men seeking association with dangerous international terrorist activity and the arrests of others who appeared to be on the verge of carrying out such activity we are not your world our situation here is fundamentally different than that faced by countries on the continent for several reasons first and foremost is that america is different in concept and reality i've heard in talk to third generation kurds in germany or elbagir ians in france or pakistanis in england who will continue to remain on the margins of their society they're turks they're a rabs or they are paki's they do not become british or german or french on the other hand becoming american is a very different process it's brought countless numbers of immigrant groupings into the mainstream it is not the possession of a single ethnic community or a single ethnic group has the right to define american within generations diverse communities and religious people of different religious backgrounds from every corner of the globe have become american and the important thing is that not only do they become american but america becomes changed as well because of this rich experience recent immigrants from arab and muslim countries come to this country in effect with a table set for them and they find it be a fertile ground for the ever broadening definition of being american another important difference between our situation in europe is that people here do not stay on the margins in fact because of the extraordinary social and economic mobility of bailable immigrants they in fact moved into enterprise the yemeni community in california which i first met about thirty years ago that was picking grapes in the valley are today business owners throughout the country and their children are in colleges and in fact becoming quite successful it is true we have a problem but i think we need to put the problem in the context the arrests of these young men that we have seen is certainly one that we must consider and we must consider not only the impact on our country but also the impact on the communities affected let me let me say the following we're engaged in the conflict internationally there's no question about it and it has repercussions here at home there are those on both sides of the conflict who  who sought to cast it as an irreversible clash of civilizations and just there are some as there are some religious and political leaders and media figures in the muslim world who sought to paint america with a broad brus evil there are counterparts here in this country who have tried to do the same with islam all of this exacerbates tension and creates problems on all sides despite this the vast majority of american muslims and arab americans rejected this form and think clash they have worked within the political process available to them they have for discrimination they have combat it hate crimes and they voice their differences in the us as citizens not as aliens nevertheless it is a fact that some alienated young men from these communities have become susceptible to anti social radicalization this is not new we've seen it before in the past four decades that i've been involved in politics we witnessed recruitment into white supremacist and christian nation and militia organizations the black panthers the jewish defense league the ira tommo tigers the fact is that the allure of certain idiology and romanticized machismo complete with weapons training and acts of bravado does provide for some of these young men a dangerous cure for the alienation and feeling of powerlessness they experience we're seeing it again we're seeing it now with a different group of people i've reviewed dozens of these cases i've looked at them up and down there are multiple differences and we have to look at the multiple differences and see what they are because they can't all be painted as one simple phenomena but the pattern of alienation and the that leads to violent action as a cure to that alienation seems to run through them all and this is what we must  address i believe that we must address it with a scalpel and not with a sledgehammer because if we in fact take a swipe at the whole community we increase the alienation and we change the character of who we are making it more difficult for us to deal with the problem let me just come to a close by saying that we have to understand what we're doing right not only what is wrong but what is being done right recruitment will remain we have to find a way to make young men less susceptible to the recruitment and i think if we look at what is going on right we have leading muslim american organizations actively responding to efforts to deal with the problem i can cite the work of the muslim public affairs committee as an example reaching out to law enforcement working with their communities working in particular with young people to create political alternative so they can voice their differences with the policies that lead to the aggravation in a way as citizens seeking reco is also working with these communities and doing so quite effectively and as the situation in minneapolis or here in northern virginia shows the work of the f b i or u s attorneys can be pretty active and helpful in this situation and finally we have a president who is creating a different atmosphere and space for discourse with the muslim world this is very important the answer is not to change who we are or how we react but to be more of who we are and to continue to do what we do best thank you dr soundly thank you thank you hundred sixty four barry goldwater said that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice extreme in extremism is nothing more than a chosen set of beliefs and as such is protected under the first amendment and extremist ideology in and of itself must not bring on government censuring violent action however whether in the name of ideology or otherwise deserves condemnation this hearing is entitled violent extremism violence is inherently harmful extremism is not linking an examination of the two implies that an extremist viewpoint leads to violence and that violence associated with extremism is more worthy of examination the non it illogical violence even though the latter is more frequent and often causes the same broad and lasting damage we will fully support the subcommittee's examination of events that may explain why individuals choose violence as a means to effect political change we will steadfastly oppose efforts to examine and thus cast official disapproval upon any minority belief system in times of national crisis we have often failed to live up to our democratic ideals during the palmer raids government created one hundred fifty thousand secret files on those who held radical views or associations or voiced anti government policies lawyer who complained about this were subject to investigation themselves the last committee in the new york legislature in the twenty's produced a report on revolutionary radicalism which smeared liberals pacifists and civil libertarians as agents of international communism in the early cold war era senator joseph mccarthy subcommittee in the house un american activities committee ruin the careers of many loyal americans based purely on their associations in the one nine hundred fifty s and sixty's the f b i ran a domestic counter intelligence program that attempted to suppress political dissent opening over half a million domestic intelligence files and identifying thousands of individuals to be rounded up in a national emergency instead of focusing on violations of law these official efforts targeted people based upon their beliefs and associations the security reckons threat then was no less real during the first red scare and during the cold war and yet government abused its power in responding to those threats there is some cause  similar concern today a flawed two thousand and seven new york police report claimed that terrorist acts are linked to the adoption of certain beliefs and that there is a uniform for step radicalization process from belief to association to terrorism but the report was based on just five cases and ignored the fact that millions of people progress through some or all of these very same steps without ever committing an act of violence ignoring those flaws the virginia fusion center cited the same report in designating the states universities as nodes of radicalization requiring law enforcement attention a two thousand and eight report by the senate homeland security committee also restated the same flawed theories in arguing for a national strategy to counter the influence of the ideology more recently however countervailing studies have begun to appear a comprehensive united kingdom analysis concluded that there is no single pathway to extremism facing marginalization and racism was identified as a key factor making an individual receptive to extremist ideology a two thousand and eight national counterterrorism center paper cited america's greater diversity and civil rights protections to explain lower levels of homegrown terrorism here in senate testimony one terrorism expert blamed moral outrage at abuses of detainees and the perception of the war against islam as the primary cause of violence not idiology he recommended against any measure that would tend to alienate the muslim community and this subcommittee i would say is showing admirable sensitivity to the issue just by holding this hearing we don't question whether the subcommittee should examine violent extremism but rather how it should do so singling out for examination violent actions committed by adherents to a particular idiology for scrutiny would predetermine an outcome that would unfairly cast suspicion on all those who share any part of that belief or idiology it would perpetuate a perception of alienation that helps fuel the violence instead our best defense lies in a renewed dedication to the protection of association all speech and religious rights congress should focus the government's anti terrorism research on actual terrorist acts and those who commit them rather than on an examination of those who have particular beliefs or who express dissent fear should not drive our government policies protecting our first amendment freedoms will vote on our values and keep us safe thank you for consideration of our views and i want to pay special thanks to the chairwoman for her constant outreach to our office on these issues thank you very much we will now hear testimony from  the harman ranking member mccall chairman thompson distinguished subcommittee members thanks for the opportunity to testify before you today on a psychiatrist as you heard who works collaboratively with refugee and migrant communities to address priority needs in those communities over the past two years a group of minnesota somalis crossed the line to violent radicalization through their involvement with al shabaab they went to somalia attended training camps and they conducted operations the recruits were males between the ages of seventeen and thirty they were born in somalia raised in refugee camps in kenya then came as refugees the united states when they were children and were raised and in pover divided community they included high achieving high school and college students in all other ways the recruits were indistinguishable from the other members of their community what motivated them their movement towards violen explained by multiple push and pull factors most in the somali refugee community in minnesota are subject to push factors that distinguish them from other american muslims such as war exposure forced displacement living in refugee camps poverty ghetto ization secondary migration inadequate services and family instability poll factors also played a key role internet exposure to violence in somalia and to extrem political and ideological views the somali warrior tradition the two thousand and six ethiopian invasion of somalia all these factors were skillfully manipulated by recruiters who were former al fighters who reached out to potential recruits through social networking technology and face to face contacts the result was that at least eighteen somalis left home in minnesota and flew to somalia without telling their parents seven have been killed four are in custody and seven are believed to be in somalia can violent radicalization occur with more somali americans in my opinion u s somalis remain highly susceptible to violent radical as long as al shabaab is active in somalia recruiters previous success in convincing the best and brightest young men from that community to go their way shows how susceptible these young americans are now the f b i success in apprehending some recruiters and preventing more from mobilizing is encouraging but several key concerns remain others may have been radicalized and recruited but did not mobilize and they're still there or lone wolves amongst that community could emerge no broader preventer preventive efforts have tried to lessen the susceptibility to recruiters there is a stark disconnect between counterterrorism and both community policing and service provision in these refugee communities recent events have shown that young men from muslim refugee and migrant groups from other failed states with violent extremism are also of sept of all to violent radical what steps could help now as a prevention researcher with refugee and migrant communities i know that prevention like terrorism itself is local families and communities local police and service providers they all need to be centrally involved they're in the best positions to identify who is most at risk but in order to provide help they require guidance and support we should draw upon psychosocial and public health expertise and apply it to preventing homegrown terrorism i recommend the following steps one conduct research to identify the protective resources in families and communities that mitigate against violent radicalisation to develop and implemented parenting education an issue to to protect against radicalization and recruitment three develop and implement community level prevention that increases community support for at risk youth such as mentoring especially where recruiters are known to be active and for strength in the collaborate between at risk communities and local police and service providers now to take these steps we need scientifically rigorous based investigations of how radicalization and recruitment occur journalistic reports are helpful but they are not enough to develop prevention we have started to work with families of recruited somali you so we can develop effective preventive interventions and spread those around but of course the need for this type of preventive work can be found in several diaspora communities throughout the u s the problem is this presently no government entity exists that  committed to sponsoring this research we need a multi disciplinary commission or institution that would develop and sponsor investigation into the family and community dimensions of bile and radicalization in the u s and w governmental non governmental and community partners in conclusion the recruitment of united states somalis as well as other recent examples of homegrown terrorism demonstrate that in addition to intelligence gathering and law enforcement we need new approaches in counterterrorism for managing those risks for working with communities and families if not recruiters will continue to know better how to find and help attention recruits and we will thank you thank you donna caroline i can't help science for counterterrorism and i'd be happy to speak further about other studies in a classified session unfortunately recent events have brought this topic to the forefront as you know last week five young american men were arrested in pakistan allegedly trying to make their way to training camps along the pakistan afghanistan border although we have yet to learn fully about the intentions of these five men they peered to be one of several recent examples of u s citizens and residents who have been susceptible to recruitment by al qaida an associated movement the examples exist of americans traveling abroad to fight as well as participating in training camps abroad in anticipation of conducting attacks here at home what happens in these training camps bryant neal vinas another individual arrested on terrorism charges has described activities in a push our campus following an introduction to the a k forty seven and other gun followed by a fifteen day course on how to make suicide belts and rocket propelled grenades and then graduation so how do individuals end up in these training camps research conducted at rand and elsewhere suggests that no single pathway towards terrorism exists making it difficult to determine precisely how and why individuals are susceptible to recruitment having said that for the remainder of my testimony i will address two questions first how do individuals generally progress from articulating sympathy to actively participating in terrorism and second what can we do about it to answer the first question it's useful to explore the radicalization process  individuals and clusters of individuals have gone through which can be understood as having three phases and the first phase termed availability environmentalists factors make individuals susceptible to messages and appeals from terrorist groups of course these factors vary according to individual but they might include peer group influences or frustration with foreign policy well the first phase going to turn chemically around the internet second phase term recruitment usually occurs after contact between individuals and the clandestine group that is our research as  suggests that were criminal works best when virtual contact has been strengthened through social linkages some potential recruit and those include prayer groups social clubs or even criminal gangs and prison the third phase of the radicalization process feels a commitment to action on the part of certain individuals this final step has been the most difficult to isolate in research and some instances a specific grievance appears to have acted as a final trigger another common factor at least for diaspora communities appears to be participation in a training camp abroad i'm often asked what motivates terrorism is it ideology politics or poverty and my answer is yes to all three to varying degrees so how can we best intervene in this process of determining how to individuals become terrorists is difficult then deriving intervention strategies is even more problematic our research suggests that we best to intervene before individuals depart for training camp because these experiences tend to harden their commitment towards violence yet in many instances individuals have not engaged in illegal activities prior to their departure these circumstances have proven to be the most difficult and so i would like to focus on them for the rest of my testimony first beyond u s borders the u s government could work with partner nations to pressure those recruiters who have shown success at reaching american it is well known that al qaeda is interested in recruiting new fighters from the united states this is not a new phenomenon so as part of nations work towards meeting the voices of recruiters who have reached successful individuals within their own countries s could encourage them to extend these programs to focus on western troops second within the united states the u s government could work with local community leaders to develop programs that reduce the susceptibility to messages articulated by al qaeda and associate respect and gratitude none the less more could be done and singapore for example a group of muslim scholars have worked with individuals arrested on terrorism charges and their families to help reintegrate these individuals back into the community a similar model could be used for u s citizens residents who are accused of participating in training camps abroad which brings me back to the original question of how and why did individuals become terrorists clearly more needs to be done to get a better understanding of this phenomenon yet i would urge you not to leave it at that as we move forward we also need a better understanding of how al qaeda and associated movements retain the loyalty of the recruit and perhaps more importantly why individuals choose not to become terrorists for if we are truly going to develop barriers to al qaeda recruitment in the united states then it is equally important that we understand the motives of those who are who reject overtures thank you very much dr craig and thank you to all the witnesses i think this testimony is dreamily helpful we will now proceed to questions and i leave my field myself five minutes to all the the witnesses let me just read a list here john walker lindh lackawanna six brooklyn bridge plot colombia shopping mall bomb plot lodi california sleeper cell sears tower miami f b i bomb plot adam gadahn torrence terror cell which i mentioned earlier for dick six on and most recently the five in alexandria virginia this is a long list i don't want just to list arab americans or muslim americans but this is a long list of  and while i agree with you mr macleod that we should focus on actual terrorist acts and not someone's belief system i truly agree with that we need to do something here we need to intervene hopefully we will not intervene after the fact but we will find exactly the right place to intervene to prevent the terror actions so our second two witnesses dr whine and dr craig and  have have suggested ways to learn more i'd like to ask our first what strategies do you think we the united states government the subcommittee should undertake to intervene at the right moment to prevent acts of terror by people like the list i just read again i th the with your definition of the problem what's the solution the solution is to start with with a different universe of actions as you're examining historical events actions you look at what moves different people in different contexts from a nonviolent to a violent situation i think that is a depressed way first of all you're looking at actual historical events and not making assumptions about the future but you're also  definition if you're starting with a different universe of people you're not you're not pre determined focused on on the muslim community doctors i think the u s the question of the hour and it is  quote let me just make a couple observations about the list you read they are in many ways they can be broken up into different groups but with the exception of two they were all stopped they were stopped because we were doing things right and the cooperation with the muslim community the outreach of the muslim community the significant work of law enforcement using the tools that are available to them and working with the communities has been effective in in every one of these instances in stopping in the case of nidal hasan which is of course a horrific act of terror and an awful incident law enforcement failed and i think we have to say that i mean there was a here failure to collect that to connect the dots and because the our hands were tied because of of restrictive ways we approach gun gun laws and got information the fact that he went and bought a weapon that is not to be used for hunting or for sharp shooting but but had we have records of this man in contact with someone that we have on a terrorist watch list we have all of the the information that you gave us  of of his very questionable i'm sorry congress in the call of questionable activities while in the military and yet the dots were never connected and the different agencies weren't talking to each other about what was going on there and that is a problem that we i think will have to have to look more closely at what to do about it i think we're doing things we're doing things right we're stopping these people degrading cooperation in the communities and we're changing the tone of the debate in our country that i think is bringing more people forward ready to cooperate which is why people have turned in people and are working with law enforcement to stop this problem thank you very much my time is expired i just want to observe the dr craig and said we we ought to say thank you to the law abiding members of these communities who do turn in family members or point law enforcement problem with family members and so i i think that's a very good suggestion and i would like to say thank you to the community members we never but in the cases that we've seen we've been able to stop a lot of these cases fortunately but some have not i think the sign case doctors are very good illustration of a case that failed was a whole failure of law enforcement as you said and i think that was absolutely correct when we had a major in the army united states army at the largest military installation the united states just north of my district  having communications with one of the top al qaeda recruiters in yemen having communications with pakistan this information apparently was in the hands of the joint terrorism task force in washington one of the members from the department of defense and yet that information was not shared with the with the very base where the major resided and don't you think general cone who i talked to at the memorial service we buried that was communicating with a top al qaeda recruiter in yemen and yet that didn't happen then information was not shared with the military with fort hood i know that may be a little bit i think it is on point because a classic case of failure what can we do better to ensure that there are no more signs out there as general cone told me how many more out there there are threat to our united states military because we know qaeda targets the united states military it's out of their playbook they targeted fort dix they bring back their playbook time and time again like they do with the world trade center and like they'll probably try to do with the capital how like i said during my testimony i mean one thing is to actually start focusing some attention on these mentors that tension doesn't have to be a law enforcement attention but i think that is one way to do it but i also think unfortunately i'm from oklahoma so timothy mcveigh   i think that prevention is the right word and the question is how you think about prevention and i think it's important to think about prevention not strictly from a law enforcement point of view but say from a community policing point of view and from a public health point of view where we try to establish relationships change people's thinking and change people's behavior in such a way to catch them upstream before they go too far down the line and i believe we're not doing that right now i think counterterrorism as microcosm say the somali community in minneapolis is limited to f b i criminal investigation with all due respect to those people who do that important work i think that there are still shortcomings in the community policing and preventive approach there are good people in those communities parents and community leaders who want to support these efforts but they're not involved and that's what prevention means that's what i think we have to be doing more on dr want to let me just say i completely agree with you i worked as a federal prosecutor to joint terrorism task force is i think one thing that  we need to do a better job is reaching out to the muslim community and getting involved in the community where we can identify the one percent or less one percent of potential threats mr mccollum doctors  respond to your question briefly but to all members let's try to stick strictly to the five minutes to be fair to everybody it does not begin with elegy idiology is the paint on the surface that is excited we cannot allow the abuse of language to mask purpose to take our attention off what is going on and that is why gree with mr macleod paul you judge the action not the language in another era as peter bergen said on c n n the other night major haasan may have turned him out with them or may have turned to some other idiology the language of the moment to describe anger to describe the conflict we're having in the deep alienation that i'm feeling is this language of religion do not let them confuse us with what the real is going with is really going on here because that's when we start using the sledgehammer and as i'm watching the media c n n covering this problem of what happened in pakistan showing muslims on the mall on service day when they were committing themselves to service to our country praying that was the backdrop thank you it sounds to muslims is very very much madam chair excellent panel thank all of you for you for your testimony one of the things i want to do is try to broaden the focused on a very narrow arrest certain kinds of things one of the things i want us to do as a committee is look at acts of violent extremism in its totality not in a very narrow focus so that we can understand the debate here is important but is a part of broader debate that we need to take and what groups may be part of it here in this country so we can see the bigger picture of the discussion and how take doctors are being will go there i can just tell you that not being someone in law enforcement  in constant contact with law enforcement because that's what we do in our work they are deeply concerned since and i it's it's no secret since the election of our president with with white supremacy mov t that are a a lot of chatter and a lot of danger and a lot of concern and i think that that is an area that is is is is something we have to look at because the susceptibility especially in an economic downturn  especially in time of war and especially now with this sense of revenge about government is a problem i think we have to take a very close look at that and continue to look at it it's the other language that is used today  i want to say this in the right way i don't want to name groups and cast aspersions on them simply by naming them in this context but historically there are many groups in our country some of which i referenced in my testimony and in my previous answer and and there are either remnants of those groups left today or there are people who believe the same things  and act a further those believe and accept but if if you can talk about the ideology rather than the name of the group if that would give you a little well let me let me just let me go about it this way does timothy mcveigh have more in common with an islamic terrorist or with any christian believer i think most people would say with any islamic terrorist it's not the belief that that is the defining moment and it's as dr zogby said that's the pain that that may be present may be present in any situation but you start with the with the propensity for violence however that may be caused and then you add you add to the the background material that gives the person the basis for going forward after he or she already has a propensity to violence and so i'm very reluctant to to to talk about it in that way because i think it starts with the factors that create the propensity to violence which some of the other witnesses mentioned in their testimony thank you i'm concerned about the place where three broad processes interact one is failed states of people people who come from failed states where that too is where there are violent extremist movements and organizations and three is that they now exist in refugee or migrant communities in this country that face many challenges of daily life so the somalis certainly  fit that so do several other communities that we have to be concerned about i think this is very challenging the other broad thing that concerns me is the issue of movement  migration secondary migration within the united states so i'd like to share this this fact with you that there are presently say about eighty four somehow eighty four thousand  in minnesota probably only about twenty thousand of them were resettled there that means that about sixty more thousand of them came from another state in the united states where they were primarily resettled this represents a shortcoming systematics for coming in the u s refugee resettlement system because when they move to another state they don't come with services attached so this is a set up for under served refugee community we might think about what other populations are also fit that pattern thank you just and just answer your question quickly in my written testimony i talk about the model of the radicalization process we actually stole it from stole it we borrowed derived it from work on cults so if you were to broaden the community with that radicalization process it would include both criminal gangs and cults and that's one way of did was interested in kind of seeing the differences between what is going on here and going on there the degree of alienation it's fundamentally different there than here here the problem exists on the margins there it is much more  widespread the somali kids didn't tell their parents the pakistani kids here in the kids here in northern virginia didn't tell their parents that tells you something right away that the community base of support in europe for this problem of radicalization is very different than here where the problem is that exists on the margins and the parents actually turn them in or their peers will turn them in and so i say that becoming american the process of becoming american is determinative in this instance it is the more compelling force that is the antidote to this radicalization and this sense of alienation and i think we have to and that's why i say at the end of the day what we have to do is more of what we do and do it better instead of less of the reason i asked the question to you just saw the map that was held up a moment ago when you saw all these recent incidents around the country it has caused me to think i've always was on the impression too that europe is more susceptible to this type of radicalization in the united states but given what's happened in recent weeks and months i start to question that my own that's why i suggest sir if you look at each one take them apart see where the patterns are and where the patterns aren't the fort hood one is fundamentally different than minneapolis and and you know i would just say two to dr one that one of the things from somalia experts i understand and people in that community in minneapolis is that since the withdrawal of ethiopian forces the lure opinions mixed opinions on how government should and gauge religious leaders to address the issue of radicalization some say there should be increased cooperation between law enforcement and muslim clergy and religious leaders since they are certainly in a position to deter muslim teenagers from going down the path of violent radicalization others suggest that government involvement would likely backfire causing moderate voices we hope to encourage to be discredited in government propaganda do you believe that the government and law enforcement officials should more actively engage with muslim religious and clergy leaders and how can this be done without discrediting these leaders absolutely let me start by saying one thing and  to agree with me on the fact that i don't think that we see the susceptibility level here as we do in europe but one thing that you do see that's common between the two of them is a separation of these cells or these bunch of guys from their own muslim community which makes law enforcement and relying on the muslim community to interact with law enforcement even more problematic that is not separation separating from american society themselves but they're even separating from their own muslim community a little bit and so this makes this even more problematic but i do tend to think that engaging like the way our law enforcement are with local muslim community leaders is the way to go in this area if you do not if you're wanting to protect civil liberties and you're not wanting really intrusive law enforcement tactics then the way to go is to continue to engage the muslim community leaders and i agree with our just like we have done successfully i think these are really some really there are many threats in the united states and that is one among them i think perhaps we're talking about some semantic issues when we talk about the objections that we waste in the past to some of the sub in my written testimony we had one point three million violent crimes in in the united states reported in two thousand and eight is that a threat certainly is a threat and part of that threat is is what you mention there are some people that are motivated through idiolog certainly there are many people who are voted moated scares me motivated through something other than idiology so be it illogical based threats sure they exist and we ought to be investigating those along with along with the various other threats at the somalia as we saw a lot of time talking with today is somehow fundamentally different than those who were recruited to stand some sort of international it may very well be that does not mean that we should not have taken measures to protect these kids from recruitment and engagement in activities that are antithetical to who we are and what we want but there is a fundamental problem here and if i can just take a moment to look at it it's the problem of exile politics and i think ultimately we're going to make a decision as a country what route we go on this one i remember growing up in a situation where there was no such thing as dual citizenship and now you can have dual citizenship with many countries all over the world and now you can vote in the elections in countries all over the world while you're in this country as an american citizen and now you can be a bush administration official in the department of a and you can go and run for office in lebanon for parliament and then decide whether or not you want to come back to the united states are not the issue here and i spoke of the j d l before and these guys floating back and forth and doing whatever they do i think we have some issues here we have to look at as a country i grew up in a situation where when i saw the pictures of george washington crossing the delaware i was on the boat with them and when i saw lewis and clark on the frontier i was with them i mean it was my story and we are inhibiting that story from becoming the dominant american narrative when we are in a situation today where we encourage dual citizenship people voting in other elections and the next step is oh my god ethiopia invaded invaded my country i'm going to go and defend my country we have to ask questions when our department of state funded the elections in iraq in this country and the co chair of the republican party of san diego is quoted in the l a times saying at last for the first time in my life i will get to vote and i said what the heck is going on here you just voted in the presidential election in this country that's your country hear back a choice man i think we have to look at this and i'm not going to be popular with both parties and even with people in my own community but i do think that if we do not take the issue of becoming american take it seriously make it work it's all that it means i think we're running down a road here that is going to ultimately get us in trouble everywhere not just in the middle east but as conflicts emerge everywhere around the world we're going to have people saying that's my i fight ira that's my fight israel that's my fight arab that's my fight pakistan that's my fight that's not a good situation for us to be in as a nation what do you suggest in terms of public diplomacy public diplomacy i think that we have to tell the american story we have to tell it there we have to tell it here we have to encourage people becoming americans here and we have to work with the full gamut of institutions and the processes that have worked for us in the past to make these kids feel that there is an opportunity for them to fully participate the fact that if we hire more americans and muslims in government if we open law enforcement to their their ranks if we do more of what we do well the lure of overseas will will pass by them completely they came here their parents came here to be part of this we have to make sure that they are a part of it and identify with it fully thank you dr white i was switch gears a little bit and since you're from illinois i have a question concerning the potential movement of hundreds of get more detainees to illinois and this is for all the actually is that going to have some kind of impact on recruitment do you think is it going to be a damper to recruitment what's impact well on a true point i think that recruiters are very clever and recruiters are always looking for a way to manipulate advance to their advantage and i'm sure that recruiters will that the point in terms of prevention is we need to find ways to stay one step ahead of where recruiters are this recall although i'm not a psychiatrist i would like to add that unless the unless the  the movement of detainees also includes a commitment to due process and to actually provide rights to all of the detainees to determine definitively what their status is then i think that would serve as a basis for for recruiters seeking to point to the united states treating folks with something other than  you madam chairman your last testimony was extremely refreshing to me and i have long been a believer that the hyphen is sation of america is one of the biggest problems we have with radicalization and all these other things i think that's true in europe because if you look there you see the radicals coming out of a community that is not allegiance to their own country or not even the legion to the to the european union but is allegiance to radical element within their community and i think a common language english is official language of america is absolutely critical for us to help further exactly what you're saying and i think stopping the dual citizenship is absolutely critical and all those things i appreciate your testimony in that regard because i could not agree with you any  further yes or no i did not mean that and let me just explain what i do what i do what i do i do oppose the dual citizenship and i do think we have to move people from exile into the mainstream but it is wonderful that i'm an arab american i'm american is the noun arab i have a heritage that i'm proud of it gives me no joy apologize for interrupting you but just for the sake  time we all come from different backgrounds we have different beliefs we have different heritage is but actually being an american is the most important thing in my opinion for all of us and the meaning of that being american is that we  of it was glad to hear you thank your earlier testimony but nowhere is the threat more real than in the alarming manifestation of homegrown terrorism and the mutating nature of the terrorist threat fort hood was a harley example of political correctness is a tremendous roadblock to addressing radicalization and homegrown terror with terrorism and i very much like to hear your thoughts on how we can address that issue actually had people say this to me before that political correctness is a roadblock to addressing the issue of radicalization i would say in my experience that that's not necessarily the case there is some discomfort in dealing with the term of ideology but in this sense to me ideology is i think as this panel has suggested is sort of a broad brush or is a rhetorical device that tends to be used but when it comes down to individual motivations ideology doesn't end up being research would demonstrate the ideology doesn't end up being one of the primary motivating factors in most cases and so to me in political correctness you know if there's a bit of sensitivity maybe but i wouldn't say political correctness is necessarily has been a barrier at least in the academic community to address this problem it's really been more an interpretation of what this ideology means well i disagree with you i think the fort hood incident political correctness was the biggest barrier to to preventing that terrorist attack that occurred down there that is very tragic terroristic act that of one of the soldiers that was killed was from a district and i think political correctness was very much in play there changing tracks i just throw this out i've got just one minute left i believe very firmly that on the ground human intelligence within various communities whether it's within the the radical muslim community whether it's within the radical eco terrorist groups whether it's with the radical animal protection groups or the othe that have been mentioned i would like you also comment about my belief that that on the ground human intelligence i think is going to be one of the best ways of not the very best way of preventing  radicalization in and to stop the process before it gets to the point of actually causing a terrorist attacks off throw it out just for the few seconds i have left m you i think i disagree and agree in part with you i don't think we can make be making decisions based upon individual associations with groups no matter how bad their reputation may be however if law enforcement acting properly but determines that there there is that it has probable cause to believe that a particular set of individuals are appropriate to investigate because they anticipate or have committed on lawful acts then certainly they ought to go and investigate do you want to wait till they actually commit the terroristic act or some or break the law before we intervene and we've got to intervene before that not necessarily when when you have probable cause to investigate it doesn't necessarily mean that and on lawful act has already been committed and you know we're we're sort of talking hypotheticals here but the law enforcement community has has a very rigid set a set of procedures that has a basis for determining when to open a file when to open an investigation in a particular set of circumstances and and those those rules have been in place and policies have been in place for quite some time and members of this committee i'm sure are of you thank you very much now yield five minutes to mr gray in texas thank you madam chair and i think the witnesses for appearing today the the there are there are words from south pacific that are important i think the song and felt that his song has the words you've got to be taught and it you are not born evil person or terrorist you have to be taught so you do have some mentoring that takes place along the way and in the process of being  taught to hate we have the opportunity to negate this process but we cannot do it inconsistently we really have to develop consistency in dealing with hate hate speech hate crimes we are right to talk about how persons of ill repute from other places can do dastardly deeds but we must also with an equal degree of fervor condemn those who are born right here who have been terrorizing people for scores of years we have to use the same language when we talk about the k k k and and  talk about the evil that they represent and be as as committed to eleven aiding the k k k and its evil as we are to eliminating others who would perpetrate evil that consistency has to be there and having lived  circumstances where fear was something that i had to cope with i know that we have not done enough to be consistent with our rhetoric and we cannot allow a certain amount of tolerance of hate to exist for some and expect to overwhelm others with our desire to do good dr king reminded us it's not just that the work of evil people for the actions of the evil people but the inaction of good people that really can make a difference and what we do and good people people of good w have to use free speech just as people of evil will will use free speech free speech has to have a price when it has hate in it the price doesn't have to be incarceration the price has a big people of goodwill stepping forward and saying this is wrong this is hate that you're preaching and we've got to get people to a point where they would do this and it has to permeate the entirety of a community to be efficacious so my my my question to all of you is this how do we make sure or how do we perfect a process that is consistent in approach to evil doers and not allow homegrown evil to receive less attention than evil that may come from without that is equally as bad and the k k k i say to you is an evil organization with evil intent rarely will you hear it said as i have just said it but we have no problems condemning other evil evil is evil we cannot tolerate it any circumstances and i will start with the lady your commentary on how we can consistently deal with this place i think as i as i mentioned earlier i can't even begin to say how impressed i have been with muslim community leaders in the united states who have done this who have stood up and said no this is wrong and i would agree with you that if i may just intercede for a moment i want people to stand up and talk about how evil the k k k is to show and that's what i want to go i am going to yes that's the example i can say so that is a nice example for the rest of us for doing the same thing the only one thing i would add to that is protecting those who speak out from backlash i think is an important component of this as well and so so that there is almost a bandwagon effect and so that more and more people feel free to speak out but absolutely i would say they are an example to all of us  think one way to think about this is you're talking about counter narratives counter narratives to hate counter narrative to extremism and i think a counter narrative from one corner of our society can be inspiring and helpful to counter narrative to those who want to preach counter narrative from other segments of society and they should be spoken and they should be they should be listened to and my concern along with d  whether you're looking at the k k k or some radical islamic group who has attacked us or non illogical attacks look at look at the anthrax attacks or the columbine shootings please i remember during the clinton years dialogue the national dialogue on race was an important effort to engage us all as a country in an examination of who we are and how we relate to one another we also held i think a rather stunning white house event on hate crime that i was a participant in and found it truly moving i think we need more and not less of that i also  think that effort in the way it was that it was too dependent on the president to go from place to place and we didn't begin national program of encouraging people independently to begin this conversation in their communities on their campuses  are right after nine eleven president bush did a rather stunning thing when he focused the nation on the american muslim community and said they should not be seen as the enemy and we had an avalanche of of of of people in hollywood and in various forms of media and politics this house in the senate passed resolutions people began town meetings in their communities talking about it my communit will tell you the measure of our country is that my community the arab community and the muslim community as well never felt as protected and respected even in that most vulnerable of times even when we're witnessing hate crimes like we've never had before because of the support we were receiving from institutions around this country it all started with the president doing it and i think that we have an opportunity to do that again on many levels today and not be afraid to encourage a reexamin to what it means to be america what it means to be a diverse country of many strands woven into a fabric that has made us great if we allow that map to define us and to take those and i maintain isolated event because each of them many of them are different some of them are criminal activity converted to islam some of them are are people who went postal and some of them are people recruited to fight in foreign foreign engagement not to attack our country despite the fact that i think that that a gauge was wrong and it still should should be dealt with all of those things are wrong and we have to look at them but they cannot define our response that's why i said not a sledgehammer but a scalpel and one of the things to do is to begin this national dialogue not just in this and my grandfather was lost his job because of the k k k because he's a catholic and it was a white supremacy was it was a religious extremist movement  unlike what we're seeing today in terms of a radical islamic extremist movement not to categorize all christians as being that way or all muslims as being that way but we're talking about a radical form of hatred a perverted sense of these religions these two religions taken to a radical point where action unfortunately is taken by some in a terrorist  as that the k k k perpetrated terrorism in the united states in my view and i think radical islam perpetrates terrorism they certainly did on nine eleven and that is maybe it's a matter of semantics here but i do think the ideology and the belief system you can't take it out part and parcel from the at from the act itself i think it does begin with a belief system that takes an individual to a point where the hatred is such doctors said it well when he said i'll akbar what he meant was i hate you that's what he meant mr hassan at fort hood that's what drove him to  kill that day and so i think the ideology is the boy system is the beginning of the process in the radical belief system and i think the great challenge we have in this country is how within the constitution to monitor the activities of radical ideology and radical beliefs and to be able to prevent and deter that radical believe from going the next step into an act of violence and so with that if anybody would like to come that was a brief question mcconville briefly please briefly certainly i believe i disagree with your statement that it starts with a radical belief i think the radical believe could come in the middle it could come in the end and it's the propensity to violence that really that really is the factor here and when you when you exercise your your your responsibility to examine these issues if you exclude other idiology if you exclude the k k k from your investigation you run the risk of missing i in the two terms i've been here i've noticed that we often react to fear rather than courage and i'm damn tired of that and i got to tell you that i was very impressed with the panel and what i've heard today and mr zogby i really want to associate my self with your comments on differentiation here and what we can do  that end your your discussion of being in yemeni american or irish american or whatever the case might be how much how much of these these folks who themselves as a soldier vice a citizen in these wars that they're involved in they do not and that the important thing is that the majorities of those communities see that ethnicity as part of their heritage and part of their origins and the land where daddy came from and that is the nature of exile politics it's the nature of the kids whose parents came after the hungary in one thousand nine hundred fifty six the revolution was squashed and whose parents kept talking about we're going to go back and the kids one generation are saying no this is home and that's the process we have to encourage is that sense that it's your heritage it's your history you can be proud of it but this is become your new history and this is the the america that we become i therefore think that we don't want to discourage yemeni americans from feeling proud about their heritage in yemen but what we want to do is make sure that that american side is strengthened and  sense of purpose so that they identify the the way that they express their concern about what's happening in somalia is is by voting for a congressman who's going to support their position on those issues or by getting engaged in a political discussion about what can america do to change politics in in afghanistan rather than i am becoming a soldier because i don't really belong here it's that alienation we have to cure and that is the key here makes them very vulnerable so i would be sensitized are these kids do you think desensitized to to violence i don't think well the ones that i know they're not violent by nature most of  them in fact are one of them wanted to be a doctor they see themselves as as healers but they are desensitized to violence in their communities subjects a lot of community violence one of the kids who went changed his view of the world so the point i want to make is this is you know it's kind of it takes a village kind of idea so teachers parents community leaders not just one person in one conversation but all these people have to be involved in the counter paul against that one recruiter because ultimately we got to we got to convince a seventeen year old acting alone impulsively to stay on our muslim community with where most focused and i think is for peace loving muslims all over the world in this country as well as elsewhere to say that's enough we've had enough of this we're going to put a stop to it and it's true within all communities whether it's within our community k k k or any other communities i think the way to stop this is for people to be within that community to say no and we're going to prevent it ourselves within our own community do you agree with that to each of you and if so how can we promote that more so as a comedian is a as a government from the u s government a perspective parents of those kids who went away nobody has reached out to them they're sitting there with their story they have been told their story they have a story to tell so their community members nobody's helping to do that not psycho social workers not community police not not not and they feel victimized not only by what happened to their kids but by this lack of response and then by all the media attention  you i think have to find ways to support parents and community leaders like that not just to stand up for community values or participate in a community dialogue but to specifically counter radicalization of recruitment and i think the these somali families how would you reach out to to any others not only in this country but we're well we are and i would do it in the spirit of collaboration the best protection of thank you dr brown let me conclude with no questions but just an observation first we have a problem and this subcommittee is dedicated and has been dedicated over many years on a bipartisan basis to find a solution to find the right intervention strategies so that this problem of people becoming terrorists whatever their motivations are is hopefully reduced and we prevent the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent americans probably on american soil if possible we have a problem second point i want to make is that security and liberty are not a zero sum game i've said this over and over and over again we need to get more of both or less and i predict that if we don't work together on the right intervention strategies and there is another major attack or a series of major attacks on u s soil the first casualty is going to be our constitution i don't want that to happen and i appreciate the fact that all these panelists and many others we consult don't want that to happen either and therefore we need to focus on what are the right set of intervention strategies third point is we  not limiting our inquiry to the arab american community or the muslim american community we never were limiting it and to the comments of numbers of members about a broader inquiry i thought were very valuable and the comments of the witnesses about this were very valuable so i think we've built a very good record here finally to dr wine obviously my favorite witness and she liked our bill that bill was well intended i don't think any of you disputes that the goal of setting up a multi disciplinary commission was to give us better advice it wasn't to tell us what to do it wasn't to develop a legislative strategy but it was to give us better advice so we would act based on information and not just based on emotion or passion or personal prejudice than any of us might have so i continue to feel that  not not necessarily that that bill has to become law i know there are strong objections but that working together on a better strategy is imperative and i want to leave that message was all of you and i see people nodding so you're in you're in the tent and a strategy perhaps based on a refinement of that old bill perhaps based on a way to go after recruiters specifically perhaps based on a better understanding of good community policing and good community strategies and certainly including the words thank you to those who are trying to help is a way forward so i want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for very valuable questions if members in addition to dr brown have other questions in writing i hope witnesses will comply having no further business the subcommittee stan