their cell phones or noise making devices yes thank you make sure because if it goes well ask who it was on the phone what they wanted to say all right my name is don couch i am we have director of planning will spence joining chair and planner danny dia this morning checking morning and from corporation council we have we have michael hopper and in the back we have jennifer or wanna  morning legislative analyst today is jordan and the new legislative attorney is greg garneau good morning good morning and committee secretary paul in martin good morning items on the agenda today unusual for planning committee meetings we usually have one first we have p c twenty five the end they'll compliance report from the business part phase two they have p c twenty seven annual compliance report for residential project p c nine family child care homes within the agricultural districts p c sixteen amending the comprehensive zoning ordinance relating to what bars in dwelling units and p c twenty unplanned chapter for economic development relating to tourism with that anybody who's wants to testify please sign up in the back and if you are testifying from remote testimony site please sign it with the district office staff testimony will be limited to the items i just listed pursuant to the rules of the council each testify will be allowed to testify for up to three minutes per item and then we'll give you one more minute to conclude the testimony we have the light set up so that if it turns yellow that's your three minute mark and when it turns red that your four minute mark so please wrap your remarks up at this point members without any objection i'd like to open public testimony ok first person to sign up to testify and the only so far is ev good morning i feel like a terminal testifier so are you guys i mean hogan owner of the sacred garden the sacred garden retreat a permitted vacation rental and i'm speaking on behalf of myself as a homeowner a vacation rental honor and community member of mally county passionate about making sure our laws make sense i'm speaking about the wet bar law or proposed bill and which i want to just confess that i haven't read the most current version i'm really reacting to conversations from about five or six months bar can increase the rate at which drinks are prepared and allows us to clean the glasses quicker and also to add water to the drinks and with this testimony or this definition in mind i'd like to encourage us all to change the name of what bar to food preparation area because that's really what's going on in maui county these what bars are being used for food preparation and it's my opinion that none of us are here to encourage or restrict to the way people prepare alcoholic beverages because it won't work my experience with this is that we tried to have a bed and breakfast permitted recently and were told that a bedroom that we had that had a wet bar in it would not be allowed and it would never get permitted because it had a wet bar in it and  really read this i want to encourage you to recognize that when you limit i was told what bars were not allowed in bedrooms at all and this completely impacts the ability to have studios ohana as or bed and breakfasts in which you don't have the customers coming into your home i was told that a true bed and breakfast means that you're preparing food for them in your kitchen but department of health laws require that you don't do that and so there's really no way to solve that problem and quite on slee in this day  really wants strangers in their actual home nor do strangers really want to come into your home for coffee or toast so the truth of the matter is that this wet bar law if not allowed in a bedroom is causing people to still prepare food but they're using the bathroom to do it which is far less sanitary and if that's not allowed then they're going outside and using outdoor kitchen areas and when you look at this it really comes down to if you ask the planning department the size of the sink and the size of the refrigerator well i'm guessing we don't really want our inspectors spending their time going out measuring sinks and measuring refrigerators because quite honestly if i have a refrigerator this tall or i have a refrigerator this tall it's still doing the same thing it's storing food for people and making their life more convenient and more sanitary i could put a refrigerator as far as i'm aware in my carport i could put one in every room in my house but i can't put one next to a sink and i can't put one in a bedroom and this makes no sense to me so i just want you guys to really take a look at this and really think through what the unintended consequences for the housing issues that we have it's a big deal i asked the planning department why this was an issue and they cited one person with a large home and mckenna who put four bars in their house and were renting it as a bed and breakfast and i want to encourage assad to realize that there are a lot of laws prohibiting bed and breakfasts already the faucet count we discussed yesterday is already pretty but in the number of wet bars you can have i really think we need to look carefully at the end intended consequences and in toronto they had a huge housing problem affordable housing and homelessness problem and the government encouraged second suites and i put a reference in this to you guys with the website so you can see that a second suite is defined as a self contained space or enclosure within a dwelling unit designed for habitation by a separate family or household in which shall contain at least one room a kitchen and sanitary conveniences designated for the exclusive use of its occupants this encourage men q julie solve their housing problem so i just want to thank you for looking at this and making sure that we're not passing laws just to control citizens and not actually solve a problem thank you for your members and the question of the testifier i have do you have anybody signed up to testify you from the you out in the remote offices member seeing that there's nobody in the remote offices and it doesn't look like anybody's rushing down here to further testify without objection will close public testimony so we'll have with us we have grant chan vice president of the properties and he's ready to come up with his compliance his report on his compliance on these two projects first will do business park phase t since the submission of the report on may twentieth we have actually received and this is with regard to condition number seven we have actually received preliminary subdivision approval from the county for the  that are to be conveyed to the colony for the future community center and park area as well as affordable housing so i know that's always a question that pops up and we've been in the process quite some time so glad to be able to report that that's moving along aside from that as you know the improvements to kelley street and the you know the subdivision in general are pretty much but we are we are very pleased with how things are going there and if you have any questions i'd be happy to address those thank you mr john members let me first see if the planning department has any questions or comments thank you mr chair the department has no questions or comments ok thank you mr victory no thank you and thank you mr chang for being here i just my question is i couldn't think of the word i'm following the secret izing the lights because i've heard a lot of complaints about people coming in and not going to hopefully all door with the opening of the bypass for the airport that has reduced somewhat that traffic somewhat because a lot of people now are using the bypass to get to han a highway for whichever way they would like to go as far as going east or going west yeah so at this point in time are you or is the our public works doing the jeffrey now again will take a lot of that traffic that's going to hold kelly right now it will be off shoot i know this is more of a temporary fix but it is a real challenge if you go there in the mornings or afternoons the traffic does really thank you very much other than that really i've been very pleased you want to scene in that area of development and i want to thank you and n b c and the rest who have worked hard to make this a part of our community thank you thank you members any further questions i project for the department of police provided that substation mused approval of the department you give us a copy in the two thousand and twelve annual report can you just give us an update on what's going on there the police department has informed us that they will let us know when they deem it necessary and appropriate to have a substation within the senate my business park property but as a follow up also reach out to the new chief to make sure he's aware of our willingness to work with them at such point if they deem it suitable for their needs now is that are you going to build a building or work with with the with an existing user where obviously there are people and the necessity for a presence so we'll have to speak with the current administration of the department to ensure that you know their vision for  this need gets accommodated for is in concert with how they anticipate delivering the service ok thank you just a thought outside the box or maybe not so far outside the box i know one tenet that's going to be moving there that might be an appropriate place to put them and that would be the county of maui's service center talk to the to the administration to see if they can throw a little extra space for them i don't know that makes a little bit more sense yeah ok that's a great idea anybody else all right thank you for that one member's thought any objection will defer that one because we're going to get the report again next year but the report gives you kind of a snapshot in time of where we are and what we've done since august fourteenth two thousand and fourteen and quite a bit has happened actually we're we've since zoning was  received a year ago we've completed the affordable housing agreement which is i think is the focus of so many of our concerns as a community of late so that agreement was actually to provide them with the tools to receive appropriate financing you know when the time comes the timing on that is also fairly imminent in terms of how long these things generally take because the first delivery of homes is anticipated for mid twenty seven eighteen and so that's why as we understand it home by education becomes so important generally we're we're told it takes twelve to eighteen months for many purchasers to become sufficiently credit ready to receive a mortgage and so that's why the classes are being offered actually as early as next month in addition the agreement pertaining to the project for the deal we has been executed there's been some focus groups as far as architectural design for the for the homes and structures in the in the neighborhood  and interestingly enough it's like the study might you know might find this interesting it's like the the local people kind of like the more maine they look and the mainland people kind of like them or they're like that doesn't look like hawaii you know make it look more like you know so it's sort of the architectural style would be sort of a blend of of the two you know and we think it's going to be a really attractive look for for the neighborhood again this is just a snapshot in time we are working with the various agencies still need to complete work with the parks department on the parks agreement they've gone back and forth  on the layout of the parks and that's been set up but the agreement itself is with the corporation council right now and through the subdivision process which right now we're just in large lots of division to define increment one but as the subdivision same topic for a number of years and i apologize in advance for that but we're kind of that were able to this week i actually already have done fourteen meetings with its employees about this you know this opportunity and this topic and and they start work early right so i've been i've been up since four o'clock but the but what's really what's really fun and exciting as i said the first time you know we've been able i've personally been able to do that and it's really neat to see you know their enthusiasm especially those that have not yet gone down the path of homeownership so thank you all for your support on this and thank you also for your work on the affordable housing ordinance because i think that's really helped us to be able to supply any can you have more detailed comments in reference to that particular condition sure so we are in discussions with the department of water supply to supplement their as to accommodate forcier residential the first increment i refer to as one hundred percent affordable which would allow that increment to proceed under the current ordinances and so the discussions we're having with them and the actually draft agreements that we've kind of gone back and forth on will serve to provide that extra supply for the system yeah that's so if you've done any exploratory stuff you have no ideas we well so that's that out that of course all has to come to you folks so we're working on the agreement with the department of water supply and then it'll come to you folks and then we can do the work on in the ground so yeah as a as a kind of a foundational matter we need to know that you know we actually are moving in the right direction as far as establishing a facility that's which fleshes out the timing of the improvements there they have acknowledged you know that there is existing capacity at the intersection at this at this time but of  course before the ultimate build out of the property world definitely need to have all of the improvements in place because you know a certain point the capacity is existing capacity is met and  additional improvements are going to be needed to accommodate so the department transportation has provided us with correspondence that's attached to the report and our engineering staff has also workers but we're just reaching out to them at this point with the homebuyer education training so that they'll be ready when the time comes should they be interested in acquiring a residence but it's amazing when help those who don't have right and need an opportunity this will be the opportunity i least one of me how whether it's like a pool or here's a way ali we've talked about it for so long we just like to make sure it comes to fruition yeah something we're doing too that you might be interested in is just the opportunity is also available to the adult children of the employees ok so even if the don't children don't you know work for the company they are also to you know sign up and go through the classes because many of the adult children have not yet gone down the path of homeownership yeah thank you i appreciate that and i think that's good news as far as our really important grant and i want to thank you and and be very very much for the leadership that you show in this area you know i'm from the generation where we left plantation homes and you built the dream city and for people that are new to w the dream city is what we know now is the old increment in culture louis where people live plantation housing and homes of their own and so you've been a leader and this is kind of your your legacy your history and it's nice to see that it continues because we know that you get it done and i think that's the important part also even with the water development you know your ability to work with tony and come up he was my set members any questions i have a couple one where this is where i thought missed by so i was going but i guess i missed it miss cochran talked about water and we had our discussion yesterday that irrigation water is between sixty and eighty percent of the use of water on maui in general so if you're doing a potentially doing a well are you going to have separate maybe have that well just before irrigation because that's sixty percent of the at least sixty percent of the use that's a b we also talked about in the spices committee great water systems  for single family homes that can help alleviate a lot of that need for extra water reuse the water and not have a go into the sewage capacity as well so  there were some really nice systems that were shown on the on the presentation yesterday and they said if you get if you do it before as the house is being built it's much much cheaper and it might be might be a model thing that you guys can put out there saying hey look we're doing great water what's allowed by the state so i would ask if you've thought of that if not would you be interested in looking  second question we may have gone down that path as far as looking at on grey water systems i i can get back to that i don't know the answer to that question but i can respond to you and he mispricing we all had a learning experience yesterday and you know i've been following grey water for many years and i really would like to see it become part of our building process it's better that you put it in at the time date you build the subdivision build the homes because to retrofit is very inconvenient and also this not only saves potable water they do not going to be using that to irrigate your yard or your your stuff but it also helps with output that goes into the sewer system and so that helps this problem that we have a lot to do it with our one water and you know having to build bigger treatment facilities and whatever so down the road and cost is a big saving to the community but we have to change that we think we've got to do it when we build it it's not that big a deal if you do it when you're built so if you might take a look at it i would really appreciate it and we'll help you in any way we can thank you thank you thank you and the other question i had it's something we've talked about before and it has to do with the traffic any any headway and i just want to get this in public and on the record any headway with looking at the looks like a road lot right in front of your property but i think it's state own property i can't i'm not sure where the boundaries are but there's if you come off the light at north north key here road lonnie and if you go right in there and take a right right in front of your property is a great area if that would alleviate a lot of the issues that i think this body has on traffic if if you can get people out there and i know you're having a hard time with the department of transportation and anything that that this body or we can do to keep poking at that i don't know where what your where you are on that right now yeah thank you mr conti been so diligent in following up on that particular strategy i don't know how maybe you can actually picture the property but yes it is i see said in pretty far from the pavement the state right of way is actually fairly wide and so there's a large you know with this like a pastor is pastor the area in front of the property that's actually part of the state right of way and yeah you know our engineers have broached that with them indicating you know your your interest in that strategy as as a  potential vehicle for alleviating traffic concerns so we will you know we continue to have that discussion honestly it's i think i'm not sure how receptive they've been to date t the application actually got through the state line use commission and state duty was fine with it but ultimately when it got to the county level state d o t wasn't fine with it anymore and so from some folks perspective over there it's like asked and answered we already told you we don't like that right so but we'll yeah but that's slightly different right you were going to do right in and out in between the light and the late my thought was just bring it right to that light to the next light over yet and that my i don't know i'm having a meeting with d o t on monday so maybe i'll bring that up and ask him if that's updated traffic analysis was submitted for review it has been accepted and we got a copy of the letter is as accepted but what were the changes what was updated in because that wasn't included in there essentially the t i a are provided the d o t with information concerning existing capacity and help them to make a call as far as what would be most prudent in terms of implementation of the improvements or construction of the future improvements at pilani and so the at this point what they what they arrived at is actually very good for however at the hundred seventy fifth i think we have hundred seventy affordable and i think that the way the state has read it at one hundred seventy fifth unit we need to get the ball rolling in and move forward with the improvements so that so essentially  it's sort of interesting hall and maybe it's this larger discussion about housing and affordability and stuff it seems like ducks are falling in line and people are acknowledging what role they can play to facilitate  the provision of these homes to these families you know and so we're actually happy that the phasing is going to be able to accommodate that thank you members any further questions for m transportation yes we have that on the back of his report ok so that where it says they can put off the improvements committee is aware that the original condition talked about doing it prior to the occupancy of the first dwelling unit or as may be subsequently determined by d o t and also department of public works so it's not just d o t that has to agree to this it's also our public works department ok that's a to me that's a significant change from what was originally envisioned and i just i think the committee should be aware that and mr john have you talked with the department of public works on that change as well yes sir so are our engineering staff is  said in discussions with the department of public works and they are in the process of drafting what we think will be an additional layer of interim improvements that they're going to be looking for  between now and wind and ford of a housing construction is done and i'm not sure how to read the that number two because it says improvements prior so you're saying you you don't have to do the the or they say you don't have to do the improvements until the two hundred seventy fifth whiling you don't have to complete the improvements  the letter from d o t says prior to the certificate of occupancy for the two hundred you know and for the hundred seventy fifth them to seventy fifth and thank you mr chairman for that clarification the one we we don't issue certificate of occupancy for for dwellings the original condition says prior to the occupancy so in other words you go up to the occupancy of the two hundred seventy fifth unit before these improvements have to be in place so that what that tells me is they have to finish the improvements before they can occupy can occupy the two hundred seventy fifth unit at least not start which is what i first thought it was so i'm glad it's complete but yeah that's three hundred seventy five almost three hundred units prior to getting those things fixed and the t i a essentially said that that was viable the t i are identified existing capacity so yes to seventy five is not even half the project right now so that it's a much larger project ok i know the departments concerned and i kind of have those concerns too but like i said we'll see if we can push for that other as well but i see the point in  that you are required for one hundred seventy affordable homes is that right we're no actually thanks thanks for that clarification we're not required to do that many homes but we're doing a oh ok all right and you're doing them all at once that ok that's that's actually commendable because usually the with all the improvements and the subsidy on the homes that you're going to need to sell some market rate so you're basically subsidizing for the period between the affordable homes and the market home so thank you for that and i see why they've done that it's still a little disconcerting only in that that might be a lot of cars without any improvements at one seventy five  but i don't know department because the condition did say or whatever the department of transportation says is that in compliance with the  it mr chairman the the condition says as may subsequently be determined by state d o t and no cost to the state of hawaii and cetera provided that any such determinations are substantiated by the findings of new updated t i a our report that is reviewed and accepted by d o t and department of public works so that our department of public works still h out any further comment on that mr spence no mr chairman that this is your condition members identify or so miss cool for the record sorry and chua senior planner at the planning department we do have one other comment relative to condition number one  condition number one states that in order to meet the goals and objectives of the key mckenna community plan molly i then plan and county wide policy plan and b shall provide an open space greenway with for pedestrian walkway and bicycle paths as they relate to each increment of the project should be provided to the department of planning for review and evaluation for consistency with the general plan documents prior to final subdivision approval to support this increment so you know this this is one condition that the department is going to have to work with the applicant on we have recently been submitted some plans that shows bike comply with the condition that says they're providing an open space greenway with pedestrian walkway s and bicycle pathways so we are going to have to because going to have to be working with us on that day not a separate bike paths just like you would see on any roadway with the county it's hard to say that that's a green way and pedestrian walkway is you know there's sidewalks  it's where wrestling just really honestly were wrestling that this meets what we've seen thus far meets this condition ok i  part of that is that i mean you guys have to work with them on that in mr john you're aware of i'm sure of our complete streets policy it's not an ordinance yet  to see how that fits in this stuff unfortunately a whole kelly was approved long before we got into this mode and it is a disappointment for  bike paths is in fact there aren't any there's no room  with the community because they see a brand new road and they have to keep telling everybody well that was approved long before we got into this this mode their part access road is a little bit better they've got a really wide bike lane but again it's not separate  but there is enough right away that people are considering doing a private one right next to it so there is a huge push and because it's baird right now you have a you have a really good opportunity to to showcase a good internal bikeways and i know that several of the at least are in t park development we've got that same you know we've asked them to really consider doing the greenways and i think we put that in the form based code and i know that cohen who village is planning on doing that as well so that would be a perfect tie into that whole area so i encourage you to work strongly with the department and listen to what they have to say to her as to how to do that so i have concerns when the department has concerns so please please keep in mind that that this council has is very amenable  to well designed greenways and bike that members any other questions comments seeing none thank you mr john thank you very much good job on that and hopefully we'll see some stuff happening pretty soon by the next time yeah as people in some affordable homes ok all right members without any objection will defer that one ok next up is family child commission's a proposed bill to allow family child care homes as an accessory use with within the agricultural districts and also a correspondence dated march twentieth two thousand and fifteen from director transmitting comments in response to resolution fourteen dash eighty one referring to the planning commission's a proposed bill to family child care homes as an accessory use within the agricultural districts we also received correspondence dated august thirteenth two thousand and fifteen from committee chair me transmitting a revised proposed bill entitled the bill for an ordinance amending the comprehensive zoning ordinance to allow family childcare homes within the agricultural district the purpose of the proposed bill is to allow family childcare homes as an accessory use within the agricultural district so this is something we set out and has come back from the commissions and i would like the department to talk about a little see the amendment to the bill to title nineteen as a necessity but it does provide clarity for the general public essentially the state law  housekeeping matter as far as changes to the code ok really appreciate that putting that in there anyway because it's a situation where if somebody is looking at title nineteen right here and they don't know about chapter three forty six who i've revised statutes they you know it's just another way to make it simpler for the for like you said the public to take a look at this and state law actually does define family child care home and it says means a private residence including an apartment unit or a townhouse as those terms are defined in five a to c one dash one at which for one to no more than six children who are unrelated to the caregiver by blood marriage or adoption at any given time so it's not a lot of kind of whatever you want to do definition it actually is a relatively limited definition so  the suggestion would be to change the list to use to right now it says family child care homes registered pursuant to chapter three forty six wired by statutes provided at the family child care home is located in a farm dwelling and that's definitely consistent with the state law but i think maybe by additional clarity it should say family child care homes as defined in section forty six dash fifteen point three five b statutes that would be the suggestion because that's that's what the state law definition is and that is limited to one to six children which is maybe different than the county if the county just says family child care home without a definition that put this forth prior to the state passing it was the the i guess the need to have these child care facilities closer to residential areas in the instead of having to drive them into town tried the children into town and have those additional hours spent on the road while these kids could stay in their cultural district area one of the concerns that i have was the long delay and this coming for if this was back in two thousand and fourteen if it was as simple as what has been stated in the transmission  that because of the state law passed there there provision to allow child care facilities or child care homes in the agricultural district they're saying in this transmission that it was pretty much moot to even include it in our tawny ordinances so i'm getting mixed messages here i get an opinion from the corp counsel saying that look we can be more restrictive but then i get another letter from planning saying that because state law says it then we don't really need to do anything except for add it into our ordinances to clarify i want to clear explanation as to why there is this type of confusion or at least  restrictions right so explain to me well from from yeah let me give it a shot first but it's more of a for me having to deal with title nineteen all the time it's better to have the listed uses in our ordinance as well the the allowed uses so no i totally agree with that but just just a few minutes ago it sound  it sounded as though there has been already maybe people utilizing this to all even though it's not indicated it's not a permissible use in our county ordinance mr hopper thank you mr chair this is a very different issue than the state having a list to do you see nature s to a five dash two or four point five this is actually in section forty six to fifteen point three five and it specifically manifests as a clear intent to preempt county zoning it says in this section for purposes of zoning family child care homes shall be considered a residential use of property and shall be a permitted use in all residentially designated zones including but not limited to zones for single family dwellings that's not state law zones that's county zones and the state does have the authority when it gives the counties the authority to zone give exceptions to that it also says and this is the new language considered a permitted use in all agriculturally designated districts provided that the family child care home is located in a farm dwelling not withstanding sections two of five dash two and two a five dash four point five and it also says no conditional use permit variance or special exception shall be required for residences used as family child care homes and then it gives a definition this is different than what we had with the commercial agricultural structures and i don't recall exactly what the state name was for it when they listed that as a permitted use in each arrest to a five dash to those are the state's own districts but it doesn't specifically say like this section does that counties are basically preempted from acting you can enact restrictions on things that don't meet the family child care home definition but it does say that these uses are considered a residential use and  allowed in all residential zoning in the county districts if this same thing was done with respect to commercial agricultural structures if it said commercial agricultural structures shall be considered a permitted use and no county zoning ordinance can require a conditional use permit variance or special exception then we'd be talking about more similar bills but this is a different ordinance in a different bill then the one we're talking about with respect to commercial agricultural structures in  general mr hopper i'm going to cut short because we're going to get off track i will discuss that other matter with you later but it's clear that there's a difference you know i understand what you're saying so i'm off that ours because we're told we have to put it in ours well that's that's fine the other concern that i had was that delay you know it was we're talking about more than a year for a simple clarification on what had to with the child care ok thank you this by saying thank you very much to and thank you very much for putting this before us today and i agree the time has come and i'm very excited that we're finally going to do it during the state process i was very actively involved in the lobbying for this bill followed it very closely with a lot of urging from a country constituents and they were very active in it too and i was very pleased that a lot of the ladies that you know do this they spoke up and they were in two hundred who did everything they had to do and so they really want this and this is very important to our country so i hope that my colleagues will support it and i think member quite delayed but here we are today so thankful for that this is just kind of housekeeping and just a general question i think in regards to the overall document why it was the spelling of our eye lens changed the preference is to carry but i think that came up in a couple of other names proper name places because when we're not sure we don't have anyone here that's i think that would be a subject you want to bring up at the chairs meeting probably with the with the chair so the first thing i would like to do without objection is add that language that mr hopper talked about and mr ebert can you reef rephrase the members it's page three of the bill that is attached to the march twentieth department of planning correspondence that's that's the state law definition and that's that's kind of the i think that was the intent but if that's undefined it may be unclear in the county code would a family child care home so just referring to the definition in h r s yes that would be the recommendation in law someone's going to try to you know say well family child care homes not limited to one through six children and then we're getting into beyond with the state law we have consensus of putting that language in any objections it's ok all right that being said any further discussion on this one right hearing none chairs willing to give his recommendation ok recommendation that i will entertain a motion to recommend passage on first reading of the revised proposed bill entitled a bill for an ordinance amending the comprehensive zoning ordinance to allow family child care homes within the agriculture district incorporating any non substantial revisions and filing of kind of communication fourteen dash one seventy five mr goodman so move thank you ch say i opposed but the records show that the motion passed six eyes zero nose and one excuse mr carroll all right members thank you very much for that one on to the next however right members of the committee is in receipt of county communication fifteen dash one fifty three from bill relating to what bars in developing units and a correspondent stated august fourteenth from me translating a revised proposed bill entitle a bill for an ordinance amending comprehensive zoning ordinance relating to what bars and units the purpose of the polls bill is to establish with within the competence of zoning ordinance a definition for what bar and to limit the number of west bars to poor dwelling unit members we had a huge discussion on this last time  the department has gone through and made some changes to the language and i have submitted that for your viewing pleasure dated august fourteenth is the latest version so we'll be working off that department do you want to make some opening remarks and maybe answer some  being able to review and approve building permits so we have a so we have something that we can you know right now when people come to the department and they want their building permit signed off things we look at they really all could be considered kitchens we would like to differentiate that so people so we can say ok you have your kitchen but then you can have you know however many web bars so we're looking to clarify that it's we see abuses of it but we also see the need if if the law is just clear we can go ahead and  easily sign off on building permits and thank you tears staff jordan molina for working with this with us members our last discussion talked about and we still will bring that up i think as an item  number of kitchens and a home staff you can remind me to get that letter out but this is just about the wet bars at this point there was comments there were comments maybe unlimited and i heard unlimited thrown around and other comments were depends on number of bathrooms and this is what what i came up with after talking with that but i am not married to this one we right now the dwelling unit talks about a single kitchen and no more than two wet bars we defined  thanks to mr molina we actually also defined kitchen to also say not including a wet bar and added a few other things to further define kitchen as well  then we added i believe ice makers to be allowed their small mixing or blending appliance and i think a coffee maker is already allowed and we also said what wasn't allowed was a two twenty volt electrical outlet and we also i think added to dish washing machine and garbage disposal but other than  that any further comments on this anything further thoughts when we go back and forth all day on the number per unit we should start with something per unit so we should start with something so i started with to see how it was a thought to see how the department can handle that in their approving of approval of permits questions thoughts i see mr white is churning so i'm going to give him some time to formulate a such anybody else mr white chair white thank you and i know you have and know more than two what bars right the department could please  give us some insight as to how they came up with the two only we had a meeting and we threw out two to start with and we'll let you guys figure it out honestly that's that's how we did it i mean we don't feel that three or i mean we just couldn't figure out a new number of permutations and we felt given the you're going to have one kitchen and up to two bars we've batted around square footage is we batted around one per floor if you have two that means you have one per floor starting point but after our meetings with you in that that didn't seem to be adequate for council we thought we would come up to two and but the bottom line is we just want something we can enforce  will throw it back into your court and see how you do you know what happens when we have a lack of direction and a little little bit more on that we we really thought  apartment was should be two or three and so we're just coming back to thinking you know your average house you're going to have you know your average house  widely going to have your kitchen downstairs you're going to have your media room or other some other kind of entertainment room so there is your first what bar and then upstairs would be a second but you know that's some people have basements so i think you know not me but i think of you know people would want to what are in a basement so we we mostly focused on  seem most reasonable us to us to have two or three it's kind of hard to argue with you know i don't i don't have one at all and neither so thank you very much and i like your remark earlier about turning i've been sitting here turning to you because this issue of the way it is is very complicated and i understand why it is an issue and i understand why that went by or has been abused and you know people putting us think and before you know it they have a kitchen and i understand that it's because of the housing situation that we have also there's people that you know always are clever and figure out how to get around stuff i don't i don't get excited about th well you know people are going to do what people are going to do and i don't know that we'll be able to go into homes and stop people from turning the widow into a kitchen or putting a stove or whatever they want to put wherever they're going to do it until we catch them so i can you know support the group's recommendation whatever it is but you know i don't like that definition i really am concerned about the idea of not even allowing a microwave you know in today's world a microwave is almost as essential the coffee pot or a toaster oven or whatever i mean if you're going to have a wet bar obviously when  drinks you're going to do and nowadays with everything coming for those and all you have to do is pop it in the microwave put on a plate you're not going to go from one side of the house to the other to get you know to heat up your pizza pockets or whatever it is you're having to serve your your guest if you're in one of these huge homes and i'm laughing at the different mission of average house yesterday morning there was a very interesting headline in the paper about the a forty one million definitely is not an average house and i think that's the problem is that you know no longer is the average house the three bedroom two bath it's the definition is huge we have lots and lots of luxury homes being built on maui and they will need and want to have this kind of accommodation may be i've been thinking about this in saying should this have some kind of an index to the us five days of the home you know the other night we had that cesspool meeting and i found it very interesting that they chose in order for you to expand your cesspool or go to a septic tank if you add an extra bedroom then you have to do it they didn't care if you add another bathroom which i think is really interesting when you're talking about waste you'd think they'd be talking about an ex bathroom but they chose bedroom yet another bedroom down you've got to fix your assessment and don't make any sense so this is more complicated than just picking one or two and i really think th may be we've got to have a big house a little house ed it in here somewhere it's very confusing i like i said i'm not wedded to any of this like you but i think there's comments he makes things very plain easy to understand it so i i really do agree with what she's saying that yeah microwaves are epicentral to a weapon are you know when do you go to a folk you know watch a if when you for the department when you were discussing the amount of the number of weapons r s and you had mentioned that size going by square footage of the house was brought up what was  the discussion was the pros and cons of determining using that method in determining the amount of ours it was just a matter of keeping it simple  you know we could we can still discuss to what bars for hols whatever four thousand square feet another one for up to six thousand or something i'm just pulling out of there we can you know we can discuss that too so so it was there wasn't really anything substantially that hinder ability for you to expand it with your credit least base it off of square footage of the house yet we we can still do that it was more trying to keep the ordinance simple ok sometime you know we begin into some really complex ordinances and the more complex it gets the more interpretation there is the more what if this what if that how about if i just do this with my hall or so then you start you know you start stretching your brain a little bit going oh maybe in this case but what about the next case and it is sometimes but so that is still open for discussion another one was the  within the definition definition the under the counter refrigeration i know that i've i've seen the smaller refrigerators on top of a counter and they're small and i think sometimes people have back problems you know they have to come back down and it's so so much easier when it's on the counter and says small the refrigerator and they open it up and i don't know why you would have you know why is it have to be under counter exaggeration mostly because and and this is in the context of part of the discussion we had last time is maybe we need to revisit the whole idea of having two kitchens in a house ok so that that being said that to me that that's a separate issue but i think it's it's certainly worth discussing just with the reality that things are way that things are now under counter and somebody comes to us and says yes this is for serving drinks and you go ok it's so you're calling it a what are all five of these or however many and they going yes that's exactly what they're for and so  let's you know you look at it what part of google it look at the images they all have under the under the counter refrigeration and that you know i mean  realistically somebody sets of their little fridge on top of the counter we're going to say hey put it out of the counter i mean if i don't even know if we would even i mean we would have to investigate a complaint but i'm not sure who's going to complain about that so housing etc etc or the you know the the possibility that maybe houses should have to be able to have to this is primarily when people come in it occurs in a couple situations it comes when people are applying for building permits and they have a large number of what bars oh yeah we called what ours just like we see a bunch of detached  yoga studios with a full bathroom with claus with a what bar and it's no honey unit but people because they call it a yoga studio you know they're trying to get their second  you know after having the the main house and the first haha you know we see that kind of stuff all the time so this helps us in the context of reviewing and approving building permits is right now lacking a definition of a wet bar everything that comes before us can look really much like a kitchen we would like to be able to differentiate the two and say ok here this is good  the other the other situation we run into is when we do home inspections for bed and breakfasts and short term rental homes when we walk in and somebody goes yeah that's that's my that's my what bar and it looks like a lot of the photos that i showed and the power point where you have a full on islands uppers lowers fold you know refrigerator's and for the stove whenever we leave and you know this this body and passing bed and breakfast and short term rental home or none says said you need to comply with all these different laws  we go into these homes and we look and we go outside of what are at the kitchen and they go no it's not and so we get into these kind of discussions and it becomes difficult i'm into big waste of time we'd like to be able to easily say you know this is what you need to be able to do that follow this definition and we're good at it we run into this actually quite a bit sorry i know it's commandeered your question i believe mr pick tomatoes up next thank you interesting subject matter with borders i mean the world has much bigger issues to deal with but you know i got it i got it misplaced the kind of put it in perspective but also i greet you there are many many homes around this community absolutely  walk in seventeen bedrooms seven bathrooms eight bathrooms nine to ten with bars kitchens whatever you want to call them and each section off and th is happening all over my county it's actually happening all over the state if you recently saw this that murder in honolulu for families living in four separate welling's i mean i'm  it's happening you know i'm to the point where if it helps you to do a better job mr spence and i'm all for helping you out and to be really specific i think when we leave things for discretion this is what we such a forty one million dollars house verses and i don't know if you can find a number of homes now of these for less than five hundred thousand not in my healthy it's difficult and i look at central and we have had a tremendous increase and large homes and they're not make a mansions and not even close to their family dwellings right and you know we could get on  one single family unit and all of a sudden you see you bashed that behind stack on the side and what was done and what you got it ten families living in one one parcel it's a way of what he has become so whether it's one with borrowed kitchens or whatever you want to call it if it makes his job easier fine but i will not detract from the fact that until we can build more affordable housing affordable rental for our working people to live in this and brings to mind when i'm out door knocking there's like five different entrances and i don't know if there is a main owner who is the main or where and it's so anyhow that's kind of what i have experience in walking in your neighborhoods see and hear the difficulty of the department right now and again if this is what's going to help at this point but the whole the you know which way to self to see how we all sort of come together here but it's a difficult one because as mr mix mr victory no describe things are  and it's the way of how people need to survive it certain coincides with ms hogans testimony at the end in regards to the toronto solution to their homelessness and affordable housing issue the second suite they called there seems quite similar to what's happening here but we see third fourth fifth and sixth week here so thank you for bringing us up would be able would would call the vast majority of weapons that we see to be a kitchen the goal of this ordinance is to basically make it simpler so that we could allow a limited number of wet bars so that we can give also the public a clear answer on what they can and can't do that would qualify as a weapon are the current code the ordinance that we are charged with enforcing as well as a ministry and through our review of the building permits state that a single family dwelling contains a single kitchen we are proposing to expand that to allow for at least two bars and that would alleviate our problems i guess with regards to review the separate global issue that you talk about affordable housing conversion of single families in the multifamily whether you want that or not completely separate subject yes it's related however right now i'm just trying to be able to have my staff review a permit be able to make a clear call on what it is prove it or disapprove it and move on and also give the  the general public and the architects out there a clear design features that was going to be acceptable to the department with regards to their building permits the other the one thing i would like to note on the i guess the latest draft is that you know where it says on the mid sentence where it it's kind of a long sentence but where it says such as coffee makers and then it has except that a wet bar may or may not contain i guess from my aspect i would prefer to have just a period and just see a wee bar may not contain any of the following to separate out rather than have a habit as an exception the way it's worded now with regards to and their counter refrigeration during the initial discussion we had set up square footage the if you notice it says under counter so there's really no limit on the square footage so somebody's good at the it was brought up that people who have larger homes or have a large wine collection have several on their counter wine fridge is for their collection but we felt rather than have a full fridge which is normally  to review for i understand the microwave issue however that's clearly a food preparation that's clearly within a definition for what would be as a kitchen  do not have somebody buys their forty nine dollars microwave and puts it in and plugs it in that's not an issue i mean we don't know bought it after i mean that's not drawn in on plans we just put it out there is the no and that if there is a complaint we can expect that there is an appliance there for cooking then it we would say you're in violation of the plans we approved and we said you could have a what bar it's clearly been converted to a multifamily dwelling because there's multi kitchens again we're just looking for clear direction so that we can have the ability to approve a weapon are in this case i guess up to two what parts for people and i'll leave you guys to decide how you want to tackle affordable housing and additional assessor he leans on at another date thank you very much chair i don't want to make this any more complicated than it already is and i understand the plea from the planning department did they want some clear guidance but of course like everything we do in this committee nothing is easy because everything has a lot of sides and everything has a lot of positions in it affects a lot of people and we don't want to do harm my you know my feeling about any legislation we do is do no harm because if we're going to do harm better we do nothing but i can only support this if we consider not having any kind of a bad effect on people that are to like i said just struggling to try to live in if they're weird but as a kid to most so be it it's happening and we can't prevent it and we can't mind to it so i don't like the hypocrisy of that but i do think that we should look at does size of the houses that we're limiting because to wed buyers in a host it is five thousand square feet is something else in a host it is a thousand square feet totally totally different and so i also want to bed microwave out of there and under the counter to me is totally stupid i don't care where you put the refrigerator i have one in my office and it doesn't you have to check your you have no sink in your office all right mr carroll and he comments you're good all right members still looks like we have some issues and i'm fine with going with the size of the house as far as the number department are you ok with we can come back with and discuss  n i want i want you to be able to get your what you do your stuff out what you need to do your job and i know this is kind of we've been doing is a long time let's do this do one more round and you heard what everybody said today it would just add to the size of the house i'm guessing taking the microwave out or what's the  and we'll get together and we'll come back and hopefully that will be the last and we will get this get this thing passed out and yes mr spence one more comment when when we get complaints about the just the just f y i when we get complaints about multiple families living on house i don't recall a time when it was from call the complaints came from call louis or you know certain parts of the hina it mostly comes from a country i mean it's usually not the circumstances that everybody's referring or you have multiple families i mean just trying to get by it's people taking advantage landlords dividing up their houses into multiple units that's what we see most often when  we get those kind of complaints members miss by so it looks like you're churning now and mr chair white is turning as well  mr i guess i'm a little conflicted on this because i realize that and it's in the purpose of this is to help the department to enforce but at the same time i have a little bit of a difficulty with us being in a position where we're telling people what they can and cannot do with their own home and i've shared with you so the issues i've had with the process where i didn't want to connect them i have a door from my living room into one of my kids bedrooms and so i decided i wanted to connect it all by outside  i lived in three houses in hawaii that are similarly constructed where the access to bedrooms is from a one night not an interior hallway but i was told i can't do that and it  long time to finally get the get the approval it was based on the fact that they were trying to impose something on me that was not in the code so i understand the need to enforce  need to have some level of control but at the same time i'm sitting here saying to myself we're really only controlling the folks that are coming in currently for a building permit because we know that there's there's violations based on the code all over the place so we're we're choosing to tell someone who's coming in for a new building permit that you can't do what everyone else has done in many many parts of the county already so in effect we're saying to mister spence's comment a couple of minutes ago the complaints come from up country well i you know i i understand the the direction i understand that it will make make the decision making an approval process more rapid but at the same time i'm have a hard time with the fact that we're telling people what they can and cannot do with real specificity but no fairness because it's already done in so many other places on the on the island throughout the county spence i think chairman white's illustration on his own building permit is a perfect example i want to take the arbitrariness out of this that's why we put this bill forward it was a it was an pulling standing interpretation that had no backing in the law that you can connect you know via the outside and we looked at there's nothing in the code that says you can't you know it was just it was one of those longstanding things that was just basically incorrect so with this bill we're looking for that kind of we're looking for more clarity on what we can and cannot say so that's and again as you know i'm pretty realistic i know one thing people get their building permit for whatever they're going to do a bunch of stuff with it you know you know members this is starting to get into a bigger policy issue  area and i know they want to they want to get something out what are your thoughts and i know that i'm sorry he's left right now but what are you thoughts of bumping this up so we have the other two members because i know mr okama has some very strong thoughts on this and what are you thoughts of pushing this off onto the policy committee only because it talks that we're talking about a bunch more policies right now it  this is a big overall policy that we're going to have to discuss is that something i'm looking at chair white of course but i think all the policies have to do with planning issues  members without any further comment it without objection will be for this ok this item is deferred members we only have one more item and it's pretty quick i'm sorry i didn't get you to go through break we are in such a discussion if we're ok this should be fairly quick and just continue on with that and you know all right members were in receipt of a communication fifteen dash for one five three for me transmitting the matter with leading to the island plan chapter for economic development relating to tourism i think the staff has passed out this item now no not yet staff is passing out this item this is basically from the maui i don't plan regarding tourism and if you look at page four dash  thirteen action number four point two point one action three implementing action says develop a yearly performance report to the county council that describes the returns resulting from expenditures of public funds grants they were awarded for the visitor industry for whatever reason this cut transferred to this committee it's my thought that this is actually more consideration because this is talking about what expenditures of public funds and grants are warded to the visitor industry so would it be easy for economic development i'm not expenditure of funds and justification of those expenditures that could just go to be enough but i think i think i would i would prefer if it's a review of the budget or some performance issues that we have been getting these reports as far as i can tell mr white brings up a question how many is there an index mr spence of how many other reports the general plan you know it's one of those lovely issues with with the with the plan that is as big as this we've got i think we've got report requirements all over the place and who's tracking it i don't think we have an index as such i know that where we're working on you know the annual report we're actually working on two reports right now we're working on the annual report for the on plan and one for the implementation of the community plans it's been quite a challenge they haven't been done a long time so we're working on those as far as the other reporting within the the maoi island plan i am you know we can we can definitely look at that and come up with how many reports we're supposed to come up with and who's supposed to do it you might have a new committee just the report you committee it's not that this committee has anything unless you go to budget and finance to get approval for all the staffing to there you go to generate all the reporting this any further comments members ok then i make my recommendation ok will entertain a motion to recommend referral of county communication fifteen dash one fifty three to the economic development energy agriculture and recreation committee to move i think ok it's been moved by member carol