honor i'm bridget loeb as i represent the girl scouts of central illinois of the appellant's in this case can i say real quick that i don't think the lights are running i think it was green before there we go ok organizations with the income from this trust and the qualifications for any of these organizations to receive the income is simply continuing existence one of the beneficiaries is the girl scouts of central illinois in one thousand nine hundred and fifty nine all the girl scout leaders can resign so there were no girl scout troops in hand mr ingersoll knew of the situation pretty soon after it happened yet he amended and restated his trust eight more times and he always kept the girl scouts as a beneficiary at the time of his death in and seventy three there were still no girl scouts in canton so there was litigation regarding the question of who should get the income designated for the girl scouts of can't know annoying when there were no girl scouts in canada and only today however there are girl scouts in can't no annoying so when i think about this trust i think about what mr ingersoll was probably trying to do and i think that he was envisioning a multi faceted and interesting and diverse community he wanted to support people in all different walks of life and in all different stages of life and this is best evidence by the fact that he supported eight different churches i highly doubt he was attending eight different churches my guess is that he just one of those to be available in the city so that there were assets out places to go for anybody who came to the community the other thing to keep in mind here is the perpetual nature of this trust this trust is going to outlast any of us the organizations who are beneficiaries this trust are going to be affected by this decision two hundred years from now five hundred years from now so mr ingersoll wanted to contribute to the community as a whole he wanted to contribute to these seventeen organizations and he wanted his contribution to be able to move and shift between them to ensure an ongoing vibrant community i'm sorry no doubt i would like i said i can't know that but i kind of presume that from what he did from the fact that he wanted to support these seventeen organizations eight of them being churches that i mean i just don't mean but he's attending a church as i think that that's that's just what he must have wanted for mess he wanted to support canton and lots of different things in camp but the part where he said that he wanted them to shift between the various things how do you know yes and i think from the language of the trust that becomes clear i think he either wanted to have a shifting executive or a interest or he wanted to have it he wanted to have people best each year once income was passed out i think the language of the trust is clear that that's what he wanted to have happen he can can you point me in the direction of so he wrote that payments provided for each of the organizations shall continue so long as such organization shall continue in existence and i go into really good detail in my brief about the word continue but it basically has a dual meaning it can mean something that just continues on forever without ever ceasing or it can mean something that continues again like on a sitcom it will say to be continued and then you get to see the rest of the story arc the next week or so and then shall continue so long as organizations shall continue in existence and then it goes on to say that they can park districts or receive fifteen percent of the income in the portion of the income payable to any of the above organizations which shall cease to be in existence at any time so it only sends the stream of income to can park district at any time an organization ceases to any exist and where is the language that sen back from the camp or just to one of those organizations if it comes back into being my position would be that the way that he wrote the trust of the way he wrote that section eighty one of his trust that just becomes clear from that the reading of that whole language ok thank you yes you're honest so the trial court decided that raid judicata bars this court's consideration of the merits of the case your consideration of that issue is the novo and the burden is on can park district that it doesn't that raid you took on a bars this matter and we've also asked that the court grant the girl scouts motion to dismiss most motion for s which is also considered a no regular caught it doesn't apply for four different reasons the st one is these are different issues so the camp fire girls court construe the language girl scouts of cam illinois it consider who should receive the beneficial interest when no girl scouts actually existed in canton it paid special attention to the clause that talks about how mr ingersoll didn't have the exact names of the organizations but he wanted everything to go to the corporation commonly known by that name  that's listed in the trust this corps is asked to interpret that language that i just read to you the trustee shall pay the balance of the anyone the income to the certain organizations and payment shall continue so long as that organization shall continue in existence and can park district was to receive fifteen percent of the income and the portion of the income payable to any of the above organizations which shall cease to be in existence any time this court is asked to consider whether organizations right to the stream of income can be reestablish or continued if it exists after as previously failed to exist so even if this court were to ask to consider the exact same issue here we also have new facts re judicata shouldn't apply because between the can't fire girls cases and the present case this one's really simple back then there were no troops now there are troops and the crystal lake case explains that ray judicata extends only to the facts as they were when the judgment was rendered the c e o of the girl scouts of central illinois that explains how girl scout troops have come back in the canton so the rd reason that ray judicata doesn't apply is that back in the day this matter issue so it's true that ray judicata bars not only what was actually decided in the st action but whatever else could have been decided this is an issue that couldn't have been decided no one at that time said well judge what if the girl scouts come back into existence then what happens it's really likely that had someone ask that question the court would have relied on the doctrine of rightness they would have said that question's too abstract and it's premature those facts hav risen yet so we can't possibly make a decision on that if it had made any kind of decision on the matter provided any answer then it would have been dicta and the starry decisis rule wouldn't have found the court to its decision shouldn't make advisory opinions on facts that are before the court the courts previously didn't make decisions that weren't before it it stuck to the question that was before it at that time and the facts that were before it that  if all of the elements of rage a con existed this court can refuse to apply it such a refusal is appropriate where fairness and justice require the court to consider the question before it the purpose of judicial construction of  trust is to ascertain the intent of the seller and carry out here the supreme court decided that it was mr ingersoll as intent to support the girl scouts but the supreme court couldn't carry it out because there weren't any girl scouts at that time intent not only possible but the only fair and just choice this brings justice to the girl scouts to any other intended beneficiary of this trust whose existence may wax and wane over the so the supreme court did decide that the mr ingersoll's intent was to benefit the girl scouts of canton being as there were none at the time it resorted to the gift over a clause that's the only reason can park district receive the stream of income now that mr ingersoll's intended beneficiary for that five percent of the income does exist should the trustee pay it to the intended beneficiary or should it keep paying it to the place holder so i always love a good sports analogy if we were to assume that your baseball coach and right before the season begins your pitcher gets injured and so you have to put in your nd string picture as soon as your starting pitcher heals you're go him back in and you're going to move that nd string pitcher back to the bench can't park district is just that placeholder for the intended beneficiary girl scout troops of can it's mr ingersoll nd string recipient now that the girl scouts  back the stream of income should be paid to them so in his quest for supporting and of were st community mr ingersoll didn't seem to mind if an organization went out of existence from time to time he still seemed to want to support it this is evidence by the fact that there were eight adorations of his trust where he included the girl scouts of canton as a beneficiary even though at those times there was no girl scout troops in can he knew they didn't exist for roughly fourteen years before his death but he kept them as a beneficiary the entire time you never makes a statement in the trust that if they haven't gotten their act together by my death then their income their their interest in the income is going to terminate he leaves that time for continuing existence open so can part distress construction of the trust subverts the settlers intent if we follow that draco nian construction down to it logical path any or all of these entities could momentarily fail to exist and then for the rest of all time it share goes can't her district that seems to be in direct conflict with m surely he didn't want these institutions to fail a loss of any of them of them would reduce the diverse offerings of the community and refusing funding once they came back with make the comeback even more difficult can with then end up as a town with a really well funded perk district but it may not have much else that certainly can't meet mr ingersoll vision so this trust only sends the stream of income to canton park district and any time an organization ceases to exist after an organization has ceased to exist it can exist again obviously once an organization again exists it continues in existence and it has ceased ceasing to be an existence can park district only gets the income at any time an organization has ceased to be in existence so at times the organization exists it would not be appropriate for him park district to receive the portion of the income payable to that organization at times its existence has continued it meets the qualification to receive the trust income so this trust is just very cleverly and concisely creating this flexible scheme for meeting the settlers intent of providing for these seventeen organizations that create this vibrant community and can it also ensures that the trust as an hoard all that annual income and end up paying taxes on it as the common law of the day would have required this trust allows that nd string recipient to take the income while the intended beneficiary gets its act together and comes back into existence the stream of income goes to the intended recipient as soon as it continues in existence so in closing ra caught it doesn't apply to the situation it's different issues than the st case there are new facts that have been or say that since the last case the current issue that we're asking this court to consider wasn't just a shovel during the last case and even if all of those things didn't exist just to still requires this court consider the merits if this court determines that if any entity that ceases to exist for some amount of time that it's stream of income goes to ingersoll's vision of benefit in canton as a multifaceted community also ceases to exist or this court has the opportunity to carry out mr intention by allowing all of these entities to get income at any time they exist and have can park district as a placeholder when they don't so we ask that this court reversed the trial court's ruling on and grant the girl scouts a motion to dismiss motion for summary judgment and awarding the girl scouts the intended beneficiary the stream of income that mr ingersoll wanted to have because of the right of a demand made this exact same regional council girl scouts the circuit court of cook county after a trial and after applying cypre construed the instrument one w appeal in the st district after taking into account all of the things in the trial all the things that have been mentioned here by the regional council today and all things influencing mr ingersoll construed to trust a different way than the trial court illinois supreme court construed this trust instrument all of this trust instrument do we really believe the illinois supreme court doesn't know how to construe a document well don't get me started but  and the answer is found in page five hundred and thirteen judge because the illinois supreme court said that the key here was that the settler had provided an alternative disposal upon the failure of the gift of the beneficiary is the one best in the issue event the girl scout troops were organizing canton before that event like it would not fit in as much as this did not occur and the group intended to be benefited by the gift did not exist when the gift was become effective the provision for the gift over to the park district must take effect it was mandatory language from the supreme court and their conclusion was we conclude that it was not the intent of ingersoll that the share of his trust doesn't need to be paid to the girl scouts ok let me let me ask you have this as they have palin argues that those statements by the supreme court were dicta and that those comments weren't necessary to decide the case before or do you say about them it's a very silly jism they lead up to you start with five hundred and thirteen dollars with them saying that the supreme court saying our primary concern is to construe dissent was an ant and then they say we're  unable to do that just from the language here in the trust instruments also are going to look at all this other evidence they outline from five hundred and fourteen through five hundred and fifteen dollars what they're going to look at which leads them to say the scheme of ingersoll's philanthropy was clearly to benefit the got the camp fire girls they were they were and this was about the regional council the killer proconsul girl scouts that was the question weather was going to be but the larger question before them just to schmidt was the entire trust instrument what was the effect of the gift over clause and they said it's in existence at the time of death plus continuing in existence the way the account wants you to read this is that they be in existence that's not what he said he said it  reinterpret in the trust the illinois supreme court answered that question for you they said the gift fails we must give effect to the gift over that's the best mom and that's the difference between this and that crystal lake case in crystal lake he created twenty year window for somebody to try and vest that gift it was a race to best it it never vested until either somebody won the prize or the twenty years expired that's not this  it applies to the others the gift they got has this wasn't it if they ceased to exist it now goes to the park district if he had wanted something that was in and out of vesting that would have  been unprecedented nd would have been contrary to the illinois trust and beneficiaries act which we cited in our brief which provides for one moment of vesting and that how you deal with the subsequent beneficiaries or where the income goes when it's terminate when an interest is given in an income stream what this is terminated for whatever reason the act kicks in to tell you how to do it this in and out back and forth coming in and out of existence not only is it super expensive so we're paying a trustee and not benefiting people of canton but is contrary to the statute most importantly though for a student connor purposes here it's contrary to what the illinois supreme court already ruled they've already answered that question they said besting occurred at the time of that sorry you weren't here you're out that this the circuit court got this right when he says the illinois supreme court affectively discontinued any potential claim the girl recognize and there are no new facts about that moment at mr ingersoll death there aren't any new facts about that the facts are some forty years later there's no doubt that it was a final judgment that's a part throughout there is no when versus who but when informs the who because that's the critical point when are we talking about and they the illinois supreme court concluded the critical moment about who is involved is at that moment of mr ingersoll death and because there was this gift over a clause because there was an alternative provided in the case for disposal in the event of something failing that had to give the given effect one of the things that the appellant says is is only fair and just to do history ingersoll's intent and that's why we have the of the girl scout but mr ingersoll intent was in the gift over a clause that it go to the park district why is the park district most favored and why is it not justice to give effect to that but our districts most favored because its mission most overlaps with all the others in terms of the quality of life of the people in canton in terms of their group government but what's fair and just is to give in effect to the intent of mr ingersoll which the illinois supreme court the highest court that will ever consider this trust of raiment already told us present state part of the go the mission of the park to stretch is to use all of its resources and to store tax dollars so if you take five percent it's going to have to do something different whether that means additional taxes but it won't be able to keep the same level of question for the trustee who's available to speak what the most recent amount is ok are there enough the so again the regional council has never dealt with the trust analogy this is like saying that in the crystal lake case because chris sale didn't make it to the world series with the white sox when he got acquired by a different team and got to the world series red sox won it that would be unjust but that's what happened in crystal lake the st time in the minute they tried to get the gift and when it they didn't qualify but then they got acquired by a different team and were able to qualify that was the key difference there but there was only one  subject to being in existence and continuing in existence and when that stop the money went to the reverted to the park district there's no coming back from it again it doesn't say d n existence it says continue it says continue three  times so the only fair and just thing there is to give effect to the to the get over clause quickly a moment about the summary judgment that's asked for if you'll recall in the history of this case there was a trial required to get to it and so if for some reason you don't believe the only supreme court actually construed the whole trust and that did something less than that and provide instructions and you're going to ignore the words before but an event which is a mere opinion the gift would not fail and that you're going to ignore their direction to give effect to the artist to the gift over then we're not ready for some rejection because this whole business about what does it mean to be in existence is  g to cease existing was how i believe it was put that's going to require a record of facts on which to draw is is one person who wears a badge and claims to be a girl scout sufficient or isn't what what constitutes a true i don't think we ever have to get the illinois supreme court said this is how this instrument is to be dealt with the girl scouts are out all the money is to go of the response to the girl scouts goes to the parties and for the reasons ok so the campfire girl courts construed only as to the question that was before it at that time they were looking to see who should get this money when no girl scouts exist so at that time they had the camp fire girls who did similar scouting type activities they had the kickapoo council of girl scouts which would be the overarching group that would be over any girl scout troops actually in canton if there actually were any the can't park district as the gift over so think of the council is different than we are today and the difference is that now there are girl scout troops in canton and this can be read to be similar to some of the other beneficiaries of the trust for example one of them is to the salvation army can't illinois five percent for use only in canton and fulton county illinois that's that's paragraph of section a one i think there are a couple other the others that do that same kind of thing so if you've got something going on in canton you can have the money if you've got nothing going on in canton then we're not just going to give it to the big overarching group that's all consistent with what the trust says and what the prior did we keep talking about this dicta on page five hundred and sixteen this isn't mandatory language the correct classic definition of deck to is a by the way a comment that originates with that judge and it's used to illustrate his  point the supreme court justices were considering what might happen if girl scouts continue their existence at some point the future they didn't investigate that question at all there is no indication in the opinion that factual scenario even crossed their minds they wrote this opinion it's so clearly dicta that the opinion literally puts forth the fictional scenario as an if then statement in the event that girl scout troops were again organized before his death then began dover would not fail this is an illustration to explain the court's reasoning in the case that was considering it's not a blanket statement that girl scouts and that can never exist again and also i want to over this pretty heavily already but it was a then whether whether girl scouts come back into existence wasn't something that would have been able to consider we've also talked a bit about the word after so if we just use the plain and ordinary meaning of the word after it's not a moment after is a continuum of time after a moment here it says after the death of the donor after by it's plain meaning can mean the exact moment that mr ingersoll took his last breath the stress itself uses various sections where it it does talk about his moment of death what at one point it says immediately upon the death of the donor at some points it uses these types of words that really tell you that's what he means this one says after his death also this isn't a window of time like crystal like this leaves the door wide open it says after my de continuing to exist so it's just all time after he dies we're not limited to those twenty years we talked a little bit about the principle and income act so it says an income beneficiary the nd part of that clause and figure out when the asset become subject to the trust at section a one that says the trustee shall pay the balance of the annual net income of the trust estate the angel net income is a stablished only so it follows that each beneficiary fails or are vests in you only they want to take section c of that section and apply it to the situation but it just doesn't apply because it begins on the term nation of an income interest here the trust doesn't create any terminations of an income interest so any argument based on that just becomes circular reasoning he mentions that it would cost too  much to do that on this trust to look at it every year but there's no indication in the stress to that mr ingersoll wanted it to be cheap we're all ready paying a trustee why not pay them to check and see if people exist before they pay money to them that that seems to comport exactly with this trust and finally your consideration of the mission of the park district and all the stuff it does really isn't relevant to your consideration of considering  thank you are all right but i just want to respond to the question that just as schmidt posed or attempt to respond yes your honor about the approximate value of this interest and i've been sitting here at my computer  during the argument trying to pull that up what i found is not perfect but just to give you a ballpark i found a two thousand and fifteen statement such fears ago and a five percent interest at that point which is what we're talking about here what for i'm looking at the nd quarter of the year and that was running about twenty four thousand dollars so if you figure you know that's a quarter of the year the ballpark would be about one hundred thousand dollars a year at that time i doubt it's hugely different now i don't have  number but just to give you a ballpark sense which is what i understand your honor was was interested in thank you of course