planning committee meeting of may twentieth two thousand and sixteen please come back to order is today's may twenty fourth two thousand sixteen it's nine o six a m and my name is dan couch on the morning council member whose men will be here shortly excused for the day are council member victory known council chair mike white and with us a non so if you need personal brakes or whatever wave your hands while she is always her input is always welcome unfortunately her her vote doesn't count enter her body as quorum doesn't count here so we have to be very careful at their court from the administration we have we'll spend the director of planning good morning good morning and we have pam who is going to sit with him today and we have a few members from the department in the audience in case they need to come down and talked about some things we have deputy corporation counsel michael hopper good morning and legislative attorney gre good morning good morning committee secretary secretary pauline martin's good morning and from there on a district off i guess is not here today that's correct ok so no hunted today from the one i district office we have denise  sixteen we only had a few minutes left after our long budget discussion so all i was able to do was get anybody who wanted to testify which was there was only one person that wanted to testify in the way you  mediately recess the meeting what i wanted to do before we got testimony last time but didn't so i will do it now is i want to read the letter that i sent to chair white that is the basis for this meeting this is for the public and for anybody who has concerns says deers chair white the subject is community plan update process during our prolonged discussion of the proposal in my community plan update we considered many of the important issues facing this special island community as it undergoes another change in ownership the community plan advisory committee spent a great deal of time and energy on their revision sued to the draft plan that was presented to them subsequently i planning commission l p c spent a great deal of time and energy on their revisions to the draft forwarded to them from the seat back the planning committee devoted even greater period of time on our revisions to the draft form routed to us from the l p c let's be clear the planning department did not make any real revisions to the documents after the seat backs final vote they did not make any revisions to the document after the p c s final vote and it did not make any changes to the document during the planning committee's deliberations the planning department made recommendations all along to the sea pac the l p c and the planning committee and those recommendations were appropriately considered by each body the only changes made to the document where those approved by the c pac the l p c and the planning committee that is how the process was designed in chapter two eighty b maui county code all requirements were followed the substantive content did not significantly change throughout except for for the proposed new resort which were ultimately removed by the council nonetheless the council has needed four meetings to pass the plan on first reading this is due to problems with the process not problems with the plan t i community plan update is a good plan but see pat l p c and planning committee are justifiably proud of their work and this is in the letter so i'm going to read it i just second people literally died working on this plan the plan should be passed on first and second reading and not be held up due to concerns with the process the process needs to be discussed in an open thoughtful dialogue with the council the planning department and the community we need to share concerns and ideas and find common solutions rather than holding a good plan hostage to an un satisfactory process there are no proposed bills to consider at this time no draft language no specific changes ideally all issues will be on the table and all minds will be open together we can agree on key revisions to the process and prepare a consensus bill that could be in effect by the time the first maoi i'll community plan is drafted as the chair of the planning committee i request that this matter be referred so that we can begin this important discussion as soon as possible mayor respectfully request that the matter relating to the community plan update process be referred to the appropriate committee for discussion if that matters referred to the planning committee i pledge to schedule it for a discussion at the first available meeting after the council klute concludes deliberations on the proposed fiscal year twenty seventeen budget as this meeting so that's all we're discussing today we probably are likely to go a couple more meetings at different times because we want to get input from everybody as to the process is it working is it not this is why we have we'll sp here he's going to give a update on the process so with that i'm going to resume public testimony we never did close public testimony at the other meeting so without  objection we're resume public testimony ok so let me find the first person to testify is kelly king followed by richard eli high chair members good morning i know there's no they just up for discussion today but i just wanted to give some general comments on the community planning process a couple a week ago or so we had a  given at that he community association meeting and i have to tell you it was frightening it was frightening how different the proposed massive amounts of development are from the actual county plan and community plan and so i just wanted to comment to you as you go through this process that we have this county why policy plan we have community plans one of the issues is that that the community plans are supposed to be updated every ten years and we've gone well beyond those ten years so we're behind the work behind the timeline and then made for those plans you know my understanding was that the process is holding it up and there are things that need that are trying to go into these various community plans that are holding up the updates but but i just want to respectfully submit to you that over a thousand hours of community time has gone into these plans and i expected to see a lot more people here maybe regularly they should be the exception and exception is an exception is not when it happens over and over again it becomes a rule and these community plan updates that we need to get going on have a basis for them in the community so i wanted to share those thoughts with you and also my i know you have remote testimony but i think it's so important that when you have when you're just guessing the community plan for the nih that you have direct discussion on the nih when you're discussing and the neighbor islands are one thing our neighbor islands which are the nih molokai but also when you're having discussions about the key hey community plan come to key h community association meeting last week was standing room only and but you know we had councilman chair there but no other council members it's very important for you to see the reaction of the community one of the last question asked in that meeting was do do we think as a community we have the infrastructure for all this development and everybody in there in the room raise their hand no we don't believe we have the infrastructure nothing was said about another school with all these new residential units coming on board and nothing was said about upgrading our water delivery so i think so much can be learned by going into those communities easy on the island of maui not so easy on the neighbor islands but i think it's worth the cost thank you members any questions to the testifier seeing on just to remind the members in anybody in the audience that it is required by today to be to go to the communities and hear the community plans and this committee has gone to law and i numerous times and discussed it with the community so just to be aware of your body everybody in this room has been to an i at least twice most of us more than that to to discuss this community plans and it is requirement into it would be to go to the community thank you thank you next testify as richard deli on followed by thomas crawl the process does work and that's why it's in the charter but everybody have to keep my that the community plan is the voice of the people that elected you today you have to hear him out there is the only way you can find balance because they are the voices you have to give an opportunity because if you take the voice away they lose faith and when they lose face faith it was trust and that arkie continues and we see these around the world so need to keep  our community viable and have a good understanding a working relationship between the two the process do work so thank you very much when you get a lot thank you members any questions the test seeing none thank you next to testify is thomas crawley and thomas is the last one to test sign up to testify in the chamber so we'll go to the district offices after this b chair committee thomas crowe speaking on my own behalf and just my experiences to some extent with county government now we count he swims in layers of bureaucracy getting the simplest things done which means navigating state law county law s m a rules general plan objectives a policy plan and now community plan designations yes all of these are part of our structure here but taken as a whole we can see it's almost gone awry it really has the community plans really were designated be guidelines to help the planning department guide we've given them the force and effect of law and i want to remind everyone the only people who can create law in maui county is this body here the community plan advisory folks they don't create law ok they give a recommendation to this body and then it's up to this body to consider that recommendation but let's not let's understand the process the process is the department recommends changes they go out to the commune say what do you think about these changes the community through these advisory committees give some feedback and some input the department then has to take that and figure out how could this be implemented is this even legal to be implemented are we taking away someone's property rights when we do this there's a lot of considerations that go with that then they come to this body and this body is the one that has to balance all of those those things so it's there's no one taking away the voice of the people but the voice of the people is through you we are a republic we write we elect the officials that sit in this room to act on our behalf everything else is separate from that is just input we're providing you input just as i'm standing here providing you input you can you can take it or not the community plans are designed to get that input from the community but make no mistake it's the department's ability to implement existing land designations property owner rights and ultimately the the communities are not writing their plans ultimately they're giving input and it's this body that that is going to approve and write those plants so you know as i haven't been involved in the lanai community planned as i wouldn't expect to be being from key hay but i have seen how you know drawn out this process has become and perhaps we need to look at how do we get that in put and how do we bring it into this room because ultimately you folks are the ones that are going to make the law thank you thank you mr crawley members any questions to the testifier seeing them thank you ok let's go to the yes we will mr maritz the last person to find out if you want to testify in the chambers please come down as soon as possible thank you what they're saying with regard to the letter would you read it the very beginning mean i'm glad you read it there's a very critical sentence that's in there which i believe is totally wrong it says the substantive content did not significantly change throughout except for the land use designation the proposed new resort which will ultimately remove the fact that we're very substantive changes made in that was made after public testimony closed there was a document was passed out  at a meeting i think in january which said we're going to change a nine point two but some language in chapter nine and made very great changes and i think that the process there by was really violated  public had no opportunity to comment the the council heard each other's discussion on it did not hear anything from the public so they nobody from when i was able to speak on it and it was inserted into the document and so i think this letter which went out the plane department would very much like it maybe others as well as well would like this to become a model for all of the other community plans and therefore i'm asking you to remove that language put back the language that was originally in there from the both the planning commission and the jeep and the that's also what they were saying that these are substantive changes and they don't like them thank you very much thank you members any question of success fire see none thank you anybody else find the by chance seeing nobody coming down members without any objections will close public testimony public testimony is closed thank you and i would like to know the  believe the members were able to hear and akaka was able to hear and some people in the audience were able to hear so wells we're working on trying to figure out what's going on there all right ok members again my intent and energy to sing this item was to create a vehicle for discussing issues relating to the current community plan update process the current process takes too long months of work by the department before the process starts six months with the community plan advisory committees six more months with the pie commission and a year with the planning committee if there are no extensions so built in already is two years discussion which is good i mean we need to have discussion community discussion two years i'm not sure woods that's one of the issues check the requirements of chapter two a to be very detailed in more than the state law requires there been issues with the expectations of the advisory committees and the planning commission all of the island plans the county wide policy plan the maui i don't plan the proposal and i community plan which update which by the way to  are also island plans remember our whole long discussion on maui i don't plan it was like four years yeah there were no i them plans done for and  then plan portions have been added in in the most community plan as well of the island plans again county wide policy and plan in the proposal and i committed to an update and the proposed community plan update have an enormous effort and taken year has been an enormous effort in taking years to complete as we look towards the remaining six community plants we have the opportunity to define and streamline possibly streamline and improve the process going forward the most critical aspect of the six community plans are the land use designations and associated maps that is the purpose of the discussion today i've asked the planning department to give a presentation to us to talk about how the department has been managed in the community plan update process the problems that they have encountered and suggestions for improvement mr spence thank you mr chairman and members of the committee i think this is a very important topic how we process our community plans the requirements of the law and how they affect how that process and i think that it's not well understood by the general public as well as decision makers there's one thing often we we pass laws that you know they all sound good but the when the rubber meets the road and you actually have to apply them it's very different so  involvement as well as other people's involvement preparing the first draft how through the process consensuses tried to be built and ultimately council review an adoption and then the let's discuss the what the issues are that we encounter along the way and what a couple of options there are going to be just food for ok so why don't we update the community plans there's ok first off updates are required by the charter and by the charter both of those the timing is good we're right at the beginning of why we process and what are the requirements ok so if it's updates the charter and to be require that we update the general plan every ten years the  the content is or is different content requires requirements some of it isn't within the charter two point zero b has a lot more detail but then we have also statutes that has changed content requirement sense since the last time we did the general plan ok so why do we change the general plan date them your population first thing is the population populations and demographics change we have an aging population on maui we also have a n generations coming up and with those new generations and i know i will forever be a newcomer in some people's eyes and that's fine with me but you have a lot of people that move to th silent so you have natural increase in population you have people that move to the highlands and with those things community values change you know we talk  about we talk a lot about the x general generation and we talk about the millennium goals and those things are very real where community ideals and values change how how the those segments of the community operate those things all way in on how you look at your general community plans new issues arise ten years ago homeless was not such a big issue sea level rise was only on the horizon as a discussion of those so you have to deal with these new things that come up then of course with some of the community plans some projects get built other projects do not and you want to revisit those things the process itself this is what everybody thinks of as the process you have six months with you have six months with a planning commission and you have twelve months with the county council that's what everybody thinks of it and then it goes the mayor's office and the mayor doesn't like it back to council and you either change it or don't always stuff and it's finally adopted by ordinance this is the real time line the planning department spends eighteen months drafting the plan before it ever gets to see pac this is  this is also by charter and by two a to b that the planning director shall propose revisions to the community plans so the professional planning staff goes and they gather  the most pertinent data population change generational changes issues that come up they do a lot of g i s analysis they look at you know the housing shortages you know those are more the concrete things that you can get out they also reach out to the community they have workshops they attend different community groups like staff has already gone write a lot they produce a lot of graphics they produce maps that to this plant it takes about eighteen months from start to the time that they have a a the director's proposed revisions to the plan that is presented to a community plan pfizer committee the community plan advisory committee  reviewing those recommendations and as the name implies they are advisory they they on the directors propose or visions they provide advice to the county council and to the planning commission on what they believe is is a good plan the planning commission will take their recommendations and they will review them and they also by charter and by two eighty b are required to make findings and recommendations and transmit those to the county council ultimately the county council  takes season reviews them review the entire record and you adopt a final plan to be signed by the mayor during that time and you know part of the reason to coun gets twelve months to do this you're dealing with budget as you're painfully aware you have other committees you have other county work that's that's ongoing so you give yourself twelve my in order to do this a lot of changes happen during the counting during each step the planning director makes recommendation the changes a number of those things and makes recommendations the planning commission will also make their own proposed changes and ultimately when it gets to the council the council traditionally makes a lot of changes when i was staff in the ninety's and we were viewing the different community plans but there was a lot of changes made by the council at that time in each one of the plans there is  what the at that time we just called them citizens advisory committees from what those cacs recommended to what was ultimately adopted and there is all these variations there of it's a moving process it's no one person's process it's no one body is process it's the voice of many people and ultimately the community you know the individual people who are not a part of any particular body those voices are very important and it's encouraged all the way through but it's the voice of the planning department it's the voice of the of people who sit on the c p i representative of the community members of the planning commission or als representative of the community and then of course the elected officials who are elected by the citizens of this county so as many voices in this morning council members and thank you for your attention and for this important topic so what happens when we get to the community because the bottom line is this well said there is much that goes into the community plan first draft and i underscore first draft it is a loosely written first draft which we are taking to the community to get their feedback in their imprint if you will on what's going on so what is the goal in terms of us going in there and working with the community it's basically to hear the needs concerns and desires from all segments of the community all segments to educate the public on community plans which is why it is such a great opportunity right now to talk to you guys to try to get down to what this process is and what at least our objectives are in working with communities as well as the planning committee and the council on these community plants most important and i cannot stress this enough to people who are sitting there i this room right now it's to gain trust this process will not work if we don't have trust with you all with the community with the various stakeholders that is absolutely important and we're never going to move forward on these commenee plans if we do not have trust but it's to gain the trust of the planning process and create advocates to support the plan through the process thank you so how do we involve the public during the drafting you can all read up here but one of the most important aspects during that eighteen month process is staff we go out and we not only have public workshops and public meetings and seminars but i can tell you that was molokai staff went out and had fifty four interviews where in the process now of just with leaders and stakeholders and people that represent that's the whole point diverse groups and aspects of the plan so we go out and do one on one interviews we do interviews with user groups stakeholders we graduate on to public meetings public workshops this is critical this is absolutely critical because this gets to the earlier sligh that will was describing and that is why are we doing community plants what his changed why is this important and that gets to the heart and soul  community we do a lot of civic group presentations of which is what we're doing now with west maui and again i want to remind folks this hasn't been mentioned yet we have three planners but let's underscore that this is all done in house by and that's three planners and three to four g i s people so right now we have out there we have submitted and we are working on west maui so let's kind of keep that in mind as we move forward we work with stakeholder meetings like will mention we hope to look forward to meeting with folks like west maui twenty twenty anybody who wants to meet with us we are trying to get out there and do the civic group presentations to try to have an understanding of what this process ok so what do we do how do we start with that first draft how do we go from one thousand nine hundred ninety eight to a twenty six team plan the first thing is of course we look at the existing community plan and that's what we work with our planning r p i d ivision planning implementation a vision that what has been implemented what has not been implemented what's no longer on the table so that's kind of our first start to find out where the community plan is the existing plan is now that of course with consistency we look to the county wide policy plan and the maui island plan and one word about that one of the things that we are trying to do in these community plans make no mistake and i'm really referring to the community plans is trying to eliminate the redundancy we have the framework of the maui island plan we have the policies in the county my policy plan and obviously that's our starting point so that's where we start with him to try to streamline these plants are section and our division is phenomenal they do it they're doing some amazing things with mapping analysis and assessment like we'll talk to really look and analyze not only the population and changing demographics but as we get into land use and looking at potential impacts by the way two point eight o b requires that we look at impacts of projected growth areas in projected development and possibly looking at balancing that with the county is abilities with needed infrastructure as was mentioned earlier and how that growth might be sequenced we're required to do that we also i can tell you as we've done it with west maui we've met with every single county agency sat down with the director the deputy their staff and talked to them about what is the state of the infrastructure what are the needs what's the demand what's the supply what are the most you know current reports that might be done like a water capacity analysis what what is it so we've started with them we had the pleasure of meeting with elie cochrane and her staff and learned a lot there so we're really getting sort of down to the nitty gritty of what do we have right now and how can we move forward so once we take that time and really reach out to the community to try to look to things towards the vision the objectives what the pressing issues are as a twenty six team as opposed to one nine hundred ninety eight how do we move forward so what happens is the first draft gets developed and that is the draft to give the sea pack something to work with one seat back and again that's on two point eight zero p is appointed and they have that first meeting the clock starts ticking and again that's not the planning department that's two point eight zero b that's mandated right now and so there is you know the sea pack is run in six months time and i can tell you with the last couple of plans that we've done it's it's challenging it's very challenging and we're trying to address things every time the like for example get more of the community involved have more the informational stuff up front so that by the time you have that which goes by very quickly six months in a blink of an eye and you've got thirteen people hopefully very diverse representation of the community going through every single chapter and they i have to say particularly it was a phenomenal group of people incredibly dedicated very very passionate and i think we had like twenty seven meetings you know some of them are three hours some are six hours some of our night tonight just very very dedicated group of people ok so what is the planners role aside from being a target and a punching bag think budget think budget you guys were all invited you were all involved in the budget you were sitting in the hot seat and trying to have to reconcile amongst the people in your community your constituents and then amongst the entire island you had to make very very very difficult decisions so for a planner we are that bridge between the various groups and viewpoints we have to find that middle ground and that gets very very emotionally challenging so i say it's very very difficult but we're kind of out there we do not have agendas are one and only role is to be out there and be neutral in making sure people are represented and that does not always happen we have to keep the plan within the county scope and i think this gets lost and the people forget this is a county document it is a county document that we must then it has to be successful we must have the capability to then implement what is in the county document and so on fortunately we tend to be the mom who has to do a reality check and we have to remind sea pack or plan a commission or the community or the planning committee that there's that there are things that the plant can only have can only do so much the bottom line is you have to take the heart the soul the desire of the community address their fears all of those things and then balance it with state mandates federal mandates and it's dearie difficult to be that reminder in terms of here's what the county responsibility the county role is action items you know we try to work with communities and was very good with this and reminding the county can only in terms of action items we can't mandate that the federal government do this we can work with them we can support them but it's trying to keep that reality check and that balance what is what can the county do and what is the county responsibility and just to comment on the reality check some point this committee will take up the implementation report of the general plan and in that you're going to see him believe me we've we've tried to ring things but between the county one policy plan the mowing island plan and one community plan there are over a thousand implementing action and a lot of those are  unrealistic a lot of those things you know i mean we wish as a county we had all the money in the world to do those things but it's just not feasible so keep that in mind as we go forward with these plans so in terms of the process there's sort of two processes if you well there's the mandated process and two point eight zero and that's one that we're all frustrated with very very difficult very challenging to rush through a plan in six months time in six months time again and council to have a year and we all know that has not been very realistic and it's been very challenging but the other process and that is the actual private planning process to develop the committee plan and i think this is been misunderstood i've heard it from various members as well as members of the public and i i see it now and that is that it's one of consensus building i think sometimes what happens is you is folks will come in with this all or nothing attitude my way or no way this is a plan that should represent not just the vocal minority but the entire community the entire community and i've heard in planning school and in many other past lives pretty much a planning process is not successful most everybody is disappointed so bottom line you work with one another so we have to here and i am thinking this especially going into west maui it's a very diverse community and there's a lot of important issues and a lot of challenges and i say that also coming out of so the planned this one plan this rough rough rough rough draft as it should be because it needs to be formed and guided by the community desires and stakeholders in interest groups so we have to hear those diversity of opinions and then strive for agreement on the big issues think this is a ten year plan on the big issues really focus on the big issues so that some of what we've seen so far and some of the things we see is the reason why some of the public outreach is so important as you saw in some of the pictures you tend to get a lot of people who come who will voice their opinions who aren't as afraid who will say things and it's very very important to capture that and so one final final word about that though is this plan and draft that evolves through the community it does not belong to any one entity or body this is not a c pac plan this is not a planning commission plan this is not an particular interest groups plan this is a plan that represents the whole community and it must evolve through the process that is the point so council review adoption as you all know very well is our desire and our hope as we move forward to have the council because this will be fully vetted and to have the council focus on these bigger types of issues and sure the consistency the maui island plan the county wide policy plan but also with these you know see ip action items there's a check there because we're trying to tell them how c ip works work with the budget in terms of making sure these actions get implemented and that's a huge reality check and terms of like will talked about you know over a thousand actions and what can really be done and what infrastructure control to be replaced and so forth and that's that's very very important as well  let me say something about the matrix this is something that all the council members have brought we want to matrix of the we want to make tricks of that when and as you know the planning department has been very resistant to producing a matrix of the whole process when we did the mo island plan this is what we have this is one of the major cities that we have for island plant this to me this doesn't tell you what happened it shows you all the changes but there's no context it's a huge amount of work that really  it doesn't produce the knowledge the contacts the overall vision of the of the plan to actually adopt something that say about the university campus online i e what did the planning commission say about it it was a recommendation the same or did it change what  you know ultimately what is the planning committee a daw or recommend to the full council d so i find this kind of matrix for land use and see how things evolve through the process  a very useful tool and we're very willing to to accommodate that if this other hundred seventy page changing could should to shout that i find th i think it's a waste of our time and it's a waste of the council's time so anyway we already transmitted a matrix we are we're doing one we already transmitted one for  so i want to talk a little bit about the issues in the process and the options year year and a half more than what was a lot of buy time i know for the one night you plan you know there were some unfortunate as well you know the ones and i sat through there was all these last very last minute changes and and a lot of requests for extensions of those kinds of things the second thing and sometimes planning commissions feel the same they wish they had more time i know that there was no formal requests but there was there was a lot of discussion at least in private i wish we had more time to discuss this and we just said well this is this is the law the way that it's laid out this also produces the changes through the process produces an us versus understand that but then comes along the way that our law says the planning commission is are going to review it they're going to make findings and their own recommendations so they're going to change what the c pack recommended that ultimately it gets up to the county council the county council is going to go are you kidding me or last minute people are going to come in and go oh i wish i was in the plan so  and those things get voted on last minute we saw a lot of that with the maui island plan i guarantee you we saw a lot of that with the previous community plans in the key mckenna plan  there was forty five changes that were land use changes that were not reviewed by the c pac the cac at that time one thousand of those were only refute by the county coun the planning commission never saw them either but they were adopted all the same i'm not saying that's good or bad i'm saying this is a part of our process and there are changes at the last minute the for all of folks to i mean people look at the seat back and go this is the voice of the community it's true but if you if you recall and you can pull down the the matrix from the key mechanic community plan that c pac that c s c voted in seventeen hundred acres of project districts and other projects that nobody now finds desirable the project to search over by the spencer project that was so controversial the one just by alexander and baldwin  nobody really like those but those were recommended and those got into the plans so it's out the voice of the community you know that becomes a problem to  make that gross generalization and then ultimately word smithing this matrix that i just held up the big fat one that's representative of how much word smithing we've done and that's what drove everybody not star in the maui island plan and well you know we've done some of it with a subsequent plan and it's just impossible to get through in ten years everybody says well is manage it correctly you would get through it in ten years here's the timeline and you have to remember prior to a t b we did not have the island plan or the county wide policy plan for the two different documents that we didn't have before him nine community years now that's not the fault of any one person or anything that's indicative i think of the process and the content and the requirements we have made of ourselves when we had opted to a t b i don't think anybody ever did a time line and said can we do this in ten years if we added all these other requirements and never did the math so honestly it's going to take between sixteen and twenty years to do what's required by charter in town and if we don't take this time i guarantee there'll be a lot of people feel very short changed and we didn't involve the community we didn't do this we didn't do that something's going to get cut out that somebody is not go if we had if the planning department requested a ton of money and we could hire a bunch of consultants or new staff or something and we could get all the sea power processes all done at one time and we would be through with that  you know the idea that that would speed up the process it would all come to a jam of planning commission because they can only handle one of time and once they're done with it it goes to county council one at a time do under the current form i'm not sure how we can speed up this process the only options but these are things that we can talk about first off we can leave it status quo and i hear a lot of dissatisfaction from community from legislators from everybody involved including the planning department we could go to twenty year plans and so updating every twenty and that could be possible if we focused on just a few issues instead of  the great span of issues into a b we could eliminate planning commission review it could go from a cac to to the council but that would require a charter amendment  a lot of discussion from the mile island plan is put the community plans first do those first and then as when realty four was going around sherm ain hours vision for the mile island plan was to tie it not to have such a complex document but it was to tie the inner regional issues together for all the community plans on maui so your roadways your sewer your water systems airport those in a regional issues a much simpler plan than what we ended up with that would help save some time  and then of course we can just look at it we can look at other processes and come back to this committee with other recommendations we can look at other places how they deal with it i know the other counties struggle with getting theirs and according to their own charters of a ten year or so members i know that went a little bit long and i appreciate it though i think it's i think it's important that there be an overall view not just  slides before you it's almost time for our mid morning break anyway so but i do want to you know there's a couple things mentioned in testimony and i want to set straight  before we move forward even though it's regarding the community and there was a statement in in my letter that was challenged just so you know table nine two nine did at i believe in then prior to first direct during first reading when we were over and when i yet again it was discussed and the community asked a few things scut be added and some things to be taken out those are in the many amendments some reforms from the council meeting that will be discussing this tonight or this afternoon so just to set the record straight there were there was a lot of public testimony and a lot of opportunity for the public so i want that on the record that that is when things started with those tables so with that we're going to go into recess ten twenty five please be back and we'll have our questions get your questions ready for the department this meeting is in recess  members you heard from the department i'm assuming you have a ton of questions so i'm ready and willing to just go down the line and you guys can ask away we'll start with the vice chair the committee mr carrol simply for discussion purposes and trying to think everybody says and i when i say everybody including the planning department the county council members what i've spoken to them in private and what i've heard in public just members in the community i hear the complaints from the community that my god when i'm ready and i get to my community plan area everybody thinks it's takes too long i've never heard anybody say the timeline is fine so i'm just throwing these things out for discussion i think some air absolutely won't be doable but it we need to start just be implemented if we did good what it would do would be the round of the community plans that we're in now which still will take a very long time to do at the end of that  instead of doing a seven year or five year six whatever it was mowing island plan it would it could be that part of it could substantially be cut down on time because it would it could be a much simpler plan to tie together those inner regional issues that was the original intent to put together at least the original vision of it tied together the roadways sewers water systems those kinds of things rather than being all encompassing the way that it turned out mean it's just food for thought as what it is because the planning commission takes six months review that would save six months on nine community plans on each one of know the the planning commission shall review and make recommendations to the community plans and to general plan updates actually all and use ordinances  you know i throw that out just just food for thought for just a quick comment on that member carol one thought could be because when you look at the plans that need to be done i mean obviously the amount of time and effort for west maui which is going to be huge and extraordinary and very diverse may not necessarily be the same amount of time or something like that so with regard to planning commissions because in my mind the planning commissions play an important role and that they are looking every month at the ongoing permit processing they are seeing where the rubber hits the road in terms of development permit processing and kinds of situations an issue those arise and to me that's another element of a reality check so one thought would be unknown in many many processes and communities in state and federal areas that i was involved and they would take the planning commission which is the so called body that looks said you know permitting and regulatory issues and so forth and hat and they would be represented again here we have sunshine law so two members three whatever would be allowable on the sea pac so that you do have at least on the sea packer they called members of that body that deals with the ongoing permitting processing zoning implementation b b a and then the other option that i forgot to mention in the presentation was what we would like to do we would like to present to you guys immutable to the planning committee or the full council like every three to four months give you guys an update here's what's going on just like today much shorter but just a quick drill and terms of here's what the committee sentiment is here's the issues we're dealing with so just to keep you all more in touch to try to shut down or rather you know narrow down some of the time streamline and then have planning commissioners on the sea pack so that that's done at that point in time because that is an important role that people are seeing these permits and to say that i'm not surprised that we're sitting here talking about this i think we're going to be talking about it for a very long time until we get to the board where we change some things and i'm really glad to see the options that the director has put in the report for us because it's there it's front and center and it's the things we know we know we have to deal with you know obviously we all agree the process we have no it's not making too many people happy in twenty your plans in my opinion are just a none none issue too long unfortunately unfortunately what we're seeing is our community is changing very rapidly and it's wors in ten years it's happening so that one day we're good and the next day we hear is gone correct you can't wait twenty years or ten years to do it and that has a huge impact on community as well as the general plan and that problem the other thing is in the molly i didn't plan and we put in some areas where we felt that you know some development would be all right and then we pick up the maori news and the people that were going to develop have pulled out and out they're not going to do it so you know there's constant change that's impacting what is done so i don't think twenty years is an option it has to be if anything much much less and i have ideas about that which i've been trying to put forth for for ever since i tear them out i didn't plan but  i don't think that some people are going to like them but i'm going to see them anywhere because i'm on my way out the door and if i can leave a legacy i think that's important what i have observed in my opinion and again you nobody take this personally it's what i see and my comments are offered in the spirit of can we find a better way to get a product that we can use because we all say we've got a good community plan we've got a good the dental  everything should be aligned and if we're going to align it stuff then what we are aligning with has to be current it cannot be ten years old or fifteen years old or what it has to be up to date planning department is busy they are terribly busy they have a duty and things going on and we keep adding more and more and you know apologies to the planning department and i'm part of the problem about why you're dealing with all of these be permits and all this stuff on top of regular permits and complaints and everything else that you guys are trying to do meanwhile trying to do these plans so there's not a whole lot of time in the department i think what we need to have is some set up somebody and i and i don't mean somebody i mean some body or person that has  has this assigned to them you know everybody somebody and nobody somebody has to be their primary responsibility to deal with dealing with these plants and it has to be in my opinion and ongoing process it cannot be something that we paul pull out every now and then or will regard the community cannot be it's got to be ongoing and so it should never stop i don't think that the planning department is you know able to deal with all of that because there's just too much within the hours that they have their limitations that they have for travel for budget for staff i mean you know we don't make it easy for them we don't give them a whole lot and ask them to do a whole lot so it's very difficult i've said it before and i'm going to say it again i really feel that we need to have the assistance of maybe some contracted entity like me to be who did focus mostly newly and let them go into a community and do a lot of this information gathering our planning staff it's very very hard for them to be in my garage at the mosque or whatever it is you know i remember being part of and they came to emil madrid my driver is in their break room they also went to my friend's house and had a meeting around the garage in the garage around people at night but they had the ability and they weren't worried about civil service and hours later you know other things that we have to worry about but they could interview thousands of people and get that information synthesize that and then give it to our planning department which has the more sophisticated planning skills and education and training to put this in some form in a draft but i think doing the legwork is what is killing us that's one of the things i see the other thing i think is because you know we struggled to appoint people and we're always lucky to get great volunteers who are very committed and they spin hours and hours and hours i know because i followed the  beginning today and what happens is we keep telling them they're advisory but when you spin potholes and of all we're looking at peeper and i head at one point in the back of my car two laundry baskets of paper you know look talk about matrixes i had majors is coming out of my ears and information documents and so you spend all that time and you  bad which is i think causing some of the the nx that we see when we get these plans and planning to put them in of course is coming from a different perspective trying to respect the input but also trying to  to deal with legalities and format and consistency and all kinds of things that those little groups are not thinking about because they're thinking about my community my home where i live and so it's this it's this process  it's a process and to take it back to what i think is the route we should have done in the community and first i've said this over and over and over when i first took it over i felt it was upside down and i other way i think it would have been better so i really like the option in here that the director has put on here taking out the planning commission i am concerned about that i think there might be too  you know we do have great respect for a pending commission we don't always agree with what they do but that's the way it is nobody always agree with anybody and but you know maybe we could but consistent be amending and putting this a little bit on the program rather than we're going to spend six months you know put put some of it on the agenda all the time so that it is happening i think it has to be circular happening all the time and i think there might help but co prove vision i think everybody you know it's a meme going with this plan and i can go on and on and on but i understand the situation that we have and i understand why we have it but let's face it somebody said something this morning and it was very clear to me we took a risk when we were elected to put ourselves in the seats and to take heat and to make good decisions based on what we do and what we hear and trying to look out for the majority that's the american way it isn't easy i get torn in many directions by people whose emulators make phone calls and say you don't understand and i'm trying real hard to keep my eyes on the big picture and as not easy and we are in our political system where we have to be concerned about not making our constituents unhappy i'm sorry that's just part of what we do but the final these nine seats and at some point we can not be for a decision anymore we must make a decision so those are my thoughts chair and i want to thank everyone who has been involved with this process we all mostly most of the people that do it are volunteers and our staff were just really really hard day they're dedicated they're knowledgeable they do everything they can so none of this is to be taken lightly but i think what we do here with this chair is going to set the tone for many years to come and so we need to be very careful about what we decide and i think you very much for also sitting as chair because this is not a fun bore the heat of the day with the maui island plan it was such a pleasure working with her through it two things one it is ongoing we were we still have and  that's one of the things i'm concerned about as we never we never get to the point where we finish we're continually planning the he is ongoing we all the while we were working  that information to i know it took longer than anticipated is to have between the community and a different group you know clear across the board and that's not easy and i'm feeling you know we seen it and we're hearing it currently from honoree that that's broken they're not feeling that so that's where the hardship lies so i understand that and i think it's just an overall look at government as a whole trust is really not as strong as it used to be so consensus building definitely of course and you know the part that the numbers that mister director spence put out their regards to key had forty seven land use changes and only nineteen matrix i think i'm one of those people who say i want the matrix i want to see how all the changes happened you know that paper with all the cat categories and everything and mr spence you said that it didn't produce anything good  every by golly no one's going to put a mark on map map that paper that said good to go and build that wasn't an app and as long as i was around and it was a good thing i did show up because it one point he did and i said who did that it quite what's on that plan so you that all these ways for people to come in for district bound your amendments community plan amendments special use code additionally i mean the list goes on and on and on how people can come in and change this plan around and all the maps right out from under us and lot of them we don't see the people sitting here and so that's to me is so we wait ten years we pick up t look around what do you want community is just a strange system and i think it definitely needs help and grateful that you did put out some food for thought here and your options of how to better this this process you know and hearing the thousand implementing items that need to be done that's outrageous and so i would like to see if there's a way to sort of base things more on reality as in budget money want to be just cut out a budget i mean i think that is a driving factor over what is bill do we truly have the infrastructure that it's needed to implement all these thousand items or not and i'll tell you a lot of those atoms are going to fall off to the wayside because we can't simply afford it and not even in the ten years or so you know take it off sorry that cannot happen right now and and i like they did that you said tying all the different infrastructure from the road system to the water to sewer to all of that totally makes sense that's where the whole comprehensive overarching and bigger picture look at what we want on these maps are affected and how each one helps one another or doesn't and there again is budget you know how do you build out those routes how do you build out the facilities that are needed  you know i just it's one of those things share i mean grateful for the for the discussion this morning and i agree with ms bass in regards to community plans first you know is there to make it happen or what do we need to build out to make it happen and there again we'll figure out how much is that going to cost so we're in this process and you know i know it's going to set the tone and the pace for others as  well he's coming along i'd like to make sure that we work through any trust issues we might have worked through you know just bringing back that consensus and collaboration with all people and having truly that trust in one another they were doing the right thing making the right decisions so yes i don't really have questions shared just a lot of comments in regards to the presentation and also my members comments here to help help this process along i think it was eaten i want to thank you for your comments about budget really thank you and i want to touch on that because what happens is when we go to let's say see pac that first process and i know is very familiar with this we are the sheriff the but you know we are the ones that get you know we have to come into town saying is that going to happen i mean seriously we have to we have to carry that hat and say that and they don't want to hear it and we say it and we say it and we say it but the bottom line is again hearing some of the comments from one eye and so forth their plan they override us and put it back in ok ok that's fine then it goes to plan a commission and again we really can't buy the entire road system i mean we try and we've been brought in and they were phenomenal director good and director taylor and they did a very very good informational talk on what is involved in infrastructure systems the capacity just to your point about budget and we say again and again budget hearings are critical you need to go to budget hearings and so forth but again we get overridden and so then to me again we talk about counsel that's where when you guys you guys you are deciding our budget and when you see these action items in the tables in the seven chapters that ultimately these nine members make that decision and that is where we can really start in terms of having a reality based community plants that's critical just as your head just a little bit  along those lines i mean we've seen this over and over seventy three at least in the last roma community plans i can point to half a dozen parks the community  said i want to park here and that's like good comes along time to buy that piece of property and it cost five million dollars or something like that and i mean it  popularly went through the planning process and got adopted when it comes time to pay that tab it's like we don't have that money and and so now you know the reality of these plans you know hits the pavement and we're trying really hard to put those you know that reality into these plans i like to dream big but boy it's expensive to could provided there's budget for a launch more often you know that kind of text following in that effort to put together one hundred eighty pages of that i don't think that's very valuable now that i've talked to a couple council members and understand what you're really looking for is this land use matrix i'm like ah good we can do that and i'm happy to provide that ok thank you thank you ms cochran members i want to remind everybody that any and correct me if i'm wrong department but i believe any community planned change has to come through council is that correct that's correct ok whether it's so all of the  department or somewhere or a landowner wants to change the community it's still has to come through here so ultimately it's our decision as to you know all those changes they got made everywhere is our our being council you know most of us weren't on the council when a lot of these plans are made and changed so councils the ultimate responsibility for all of these plans get great input from the department great input from the community and as we've heard communities you know the input is on both sides and somewhere in the middle all the way so it's one of those things that that's our job as miss by said we're the ones that get to determine what we think is best based on a ton of input from a ton of people mr victory  change created that anybody else is community radio will read out that door and i can tell you are my community is changing and i'm not only talking about what is being built i'm talking the dynamics and the demographics of my community no place else has changed as much as my issues to be the bastion of residential local families who walk around now you find a lot of new faces in this community right up here we've got a lot of smart people know a lot of smart people that know how to solve all the problems i hear it every day when i walk around not being facetious but i'm going back to you know being factual budget they don't care  long as they don't have to pay for it they wanted their waste laws they don't have to pay for it so all that being said mr chair changing the process via the charter is probably the best bet and that's got to be done i think that and moves fast and you know much further behind neither of the other ones you know so it changes quite rapidly we've got all these experts to come in but let me stay the one thing we've got to make these people understand and i think this theme of very apparent and very early on when we got the plan for the island blanche they did everything based upon the sky's the limit don't worry about money wolf let the council and the others figure it out we real community plan must be about your community what you can do and if you want to involve the state of fans of others then you've got to make sure that that seed and not put on the burden of the county we're really paid a lot of unfunded mandate so you know there's a lot of issues starting from then and coming across and back and forth my bottom line in all of this i think you hit the nail on the head it's not my plan your plan their plan it's our plan except what they want india area you mention above parks we're building parks down here and the neighborhoods adjacent to the parks don't want to parks they don't want the parks and yet we need you know so that's housing all we want workforce housing but every time we put a plan oh not in my neighborhood not in my neighborhood not my site you put it someplace else well there's only so many places we can go and then we run a pretty straight so all i had to pontificate because everything else was done and everything i agree with my colleagues saying you know the bottom line in all of this is when we all start working as a community and not as individuals not a special interest only then and only then can we accomplish not only i new plan but everything else and the world changes on a dying one difficult to convince the members that we have a special committee to deal only with planning and i mean not the regular planning issues in this committee where somebody is changing some  plan from this to that or whatever but committed it is focused on this work is really important we would never have gotten through if we didn't have a committee that was given the responsibility of working only on the most in plan it set aside at the time and at a place where we all have to calm and we had to we would not have done it without that i think that the new console me one to think about that because this is not going to go away we're going to be dealing with individual communities plans and if we don't want a ballgame up in months and months and months trying to deal with them and deal with the regular where the planning committee has to do i think that you know whoever's going to be here might want to think about it you know and also i want to give credit where credit is due you know everybody talks about mandate and community plans and i mean the plan i want to give thanks to my  i just want to thank you again i don't think i could have done it without thank you myspace the members i've got a couple questions for the department and then we'll go back to mr carroll first i wanted to make a comment on what think what we're paid to do that's the nature of the beast but keep in mind that we're trying to make something that's real i mean wish list as mr spence and mr victorian says big huge whis list but we have to figure out what's available in the budget how much we have to tax the homeowners and everybody else out there and what needs what can be done in what can legally be done so thank you mr victory for bringing out that  e i really like that one department there have been concerns about especially in the first community plan we're doing on the one i e you know as you said the process is the sea pac deals with their it gives their recommendations then the planning commission commissions give their recommendations and it comes to us at any time during that process when those changes say the planning commission makes changes is it in vision is it in law that that those changes have to go back to the c pac for review or is that just part of the process where the advice is taken and maybe not taken in certain cases and the commission comes up with their recommendations and then a council they come back and come up with their recommendations that any times they go back down the line to for further review thank you chairman no there is nothing in to a t b that requires a change that the planning commission proposes or even a change in any of the changes that the county council proposes go back to the sea concerned about how long this is all taking already and have i at least tried to point out in the presentation it it's been very common with the adoption of shoot even the island plan but sir and certainly the previous community plans for a lot of changes that took place on a council level that never went back the other way you know in the previous rounds it was  people aired concerns about it just like there are airing concerns now that you know changes are taking place at the council level that we never saw even though it was posted and  discussed at a public meeting there were a lot of those concerns aired last round in the ninety's and i even had i have some things had some newspaper clippings about when the first community plans were adopted in the one nine hundred eighty s headlines were plan is held up because of you know such and such a project in one of  might remember was the cool manu project and he testified against that and so the adoption of the plan was delayed because of that so there's you know there's con sorry there is controversy at the council level really in each level but particularly because you are the final authoritative body that is going to adopt a plan by ordinance ok and yes just a comment on both what mr ritter you know and and you said some of the our community plans i'll say the plan but also the community plans have some very unpopular projects in them and you know people i think it's when i think it's an illustration that that the community plans are not adopted by just the community they're adopted by you know they're the voice of many people along the way including the planners and the commission and the council and the community you know people don't want whatever in my backyard things like hunter will a very controversial within the last two community plans people still don't want that thing built but if we're saying the community plans are the voice of the community and we should be following the community plan that's in the community plan that was adopted the spencer project that very controversial lawsuits filed over it etc i was adopted in the community plan we've already seen you know what's happened with all all of you know that project has been put by the wayside and that was just in the maui island plant it's controversy and stuff but yet we we adopt these plans just because they're adopted in the plans doesn't mean it's certainly some people's voices it's not everybody's oyster i think it is a broader context to how these plans are adopted in and who adopts them and after some testimony from the community part of the community that didn't want that in there there were some things that brought up that made sense and also triggered some things that can so we removed something that the community wanted but we felt it wasn't good for the island or we aren't getting criticised for that we're getting criticised for something that we combine two tables to one but that's a huge change from the fact that it's an island planned to combine with the community plan and are we going to see something like this for western ourself and all the rest of the maori communities because we have a plan what what's the process going to be there so with regard to my if you look at two point eight zero b and i believe it's like a through k it mandates that very specific contents must be in the community plan modal transportation i mean it literally says that so because of that and because we had to follow two point eight zero b that dictated much of the content and that is why molokai a change so much in addition to that there are also a wire if i statutes dealing with sustainability and sea level rise that must also be addressed in the community plan so that is why the format and quite frankly it grew in content with regard to west maui what we again two point eight zero b dictates that all these various things be put in but because we do not want to be redundant and because two point eight zero eight deals with the general plan we are trying to not have the redundancy and why cover and rehash what has already been and decided in the two thousand one community why buy a policy plan as opposed to maui island plan so i think the intent would be to really focus on land  and projected growth areas and to get to that level of specificity which is in the projected growth areas in the plan where they actually do bring up some regional concerns with west maui so be to focus on that to focus on those areas in more detail that's not in a million plan up if you have suggestions on the options food for thought if you have other suggestions language potential language that we can deal with i'm open and from the public as well any potential language issues that we need to deal with that's what this meeting is for is to bring up to the surface what some of the issues are and then any input from members community everybody take a look at it before the meeting starts the spices thank you very much there is just one more thing i think we want to talk about a little bit and i think it's very relevant to what we're trying to do here today and all of the concern and difference of opinions and whatever as an elected official and i'm sure the planning department who is not elected but are those working very hard and has the responsibility one of the things that is difficult is we're told that we have to do this into the community and we have to listen to everybody that is not a small first of all you have to contact everybody and we all know that everybody is not in the loop i'm sorry but along my own acquaintances my own family people laid have been or actions with some of them don't have a clue you talk to them about the most and they don't know such a thing exists all they know that if they want to do something they've got to come to the county and go through a bunch of paperwork and spend a lot of money and a process but they have noid is driving this because didn't home pin attention and they don't pay attention a lot of them they don't know any better they are too busy trying to hold their three jobs down and take care of their kids and do whatever it is they have to do so what happens is there are people in our community who are very knowledgeable they very involved they show up in meetings they have the time to come here or to kill it they know how to speak they're not afraid to come and shake at the podium like we see don't come because they're afraid and in the past i'm just telling what i know some of them were really put in a tight spot when they came to testify i think this council does a much better job of not doing that we don't get people on the podium and try to debate with them and make them feel bad we listen and i think that's where lot of people don't come or don't know don't have the time and so who does come are the people that have the time have the knowledge you know how to do it can get on a computer and send us an email or a letter or whatever it is that dates them and so this these people express their feelings but there are thousands and literally thousands who we never hear from right so that is the tricky part of making the decisions that we have to make there is the vocal minority and the organized minority and there is this vast group of people out there who we never hear from so i do miss something i wish people would take into consideration when they see our community or this we want or this area  think we better pay a little bit more attention to how many people are behind it or who they are in is really scary as a council member because you know you are going to listen and be have a whole lot of putting pressure and you are the ones that are a bill it will to me or have the time or knowledgeable or can do can show up and so that's what you hear but then when you go to a wedding or you go to a luau or you go to a funeral or you go to your neighbor's house you talk with other people and first number they never heard what you talking about and when they do they're just amazed and they have different ideas different suggestions so our talent is how do we determine what is the true situation in a community and i see this all the time and i know that every no in a group gets really really organized and they know how and they go out and get petitions  bring us a bunch of signatures again do ten thousand people may please in one hundred sixty thousand i think it's something we need to think about when we talk about what is the will of the community draft of the plan is so we're getting an input i mean you can't be around land use planning council meetings without seeing the same faces over and over again and and that's i'm not saying that's a bad thing most of the people who are invested in you know they take an interest in this thing but as you say that's not the whole community by any stretch of the imagination the hotel workers the waiters the waitresses the landscapers the people who run the tours and it's gone it goes on and on you never see those people you never hear from them and so part of our outreach is to reach out to all segments of the community one next thing and then that was the reason why i mention focus my we knew right because they had the ability to go and talk to people that will come and are not reached and it's simply because they operate in a different discipline and as a non here they can go wherever and whenever and whatever and i still have not gotten over that i thought it was an effective community organizing i've ever seen thank you thank you one last thing for me if anybody else  community plan rejects specifically molyneux needs to hit the regions and focus on the regions game but we also have to remember in today's world we go regionally when we come to the next level which is what the island plan we have to now put the rationale of our decisions based upon the various segments of the community and how they start to interact with each scene is closing down it effects probably beyond just employees six regions of this county six regions of this county or six districts of this county are touched by e t s my damn shutting down six regions have changed from what we had put in the original plan for all of that and the other thing and i'll close with this is when these selective groups come in and say we must do it this way or else or like i get all these e mails i am a citizen and i want it down this way well i hate to mention to them when i go to church and i go to the stores and i go all around this community does that every day people that have no time not even to e mail that come up to me and say what's so important about that we have good we have teams that are in to this point where we started years ago we've come to this point and we're like going back again it's like a ping pong going back and forth back and forth and we've got some real weiss people in this room that tell us ha what we're not and went to do things  frankly scarlett i really don't give a ball and we're going to change and i'm going to fight hard and those residents that are starting to come out of the woodwork and saying enough is enough enough is enough and we're going to have to work on it but when we make our change i'd like you to be regionalized so it's going to go to different regions get that region is concerned but then when we get to the final plan incorporate them all i think this is going to be real and this is what was discussed and what was voted down and now you days are saying totally opposite whatever you know so there are certain people who carried through and watched your whole process roll out and made sure that their voices didn't reasoning were meeting but i would like to ask mr harper is that something we can do here or there are restrictions in the charter about who can be on the seat back i can imagine that if we have only two not a problem with the sunshine law mr harper any thoughts and you don't have to answer today if you don't have it on top you had that might be something for the next meeting and we've done that for the council has done that before and had that at the same time i think  playing commission members have been on c packs at the same time before whether that's a good idea from a policy perspective is up to the council but i can't recall anything from a legal perspective that would actually prohibit that ok thank you members any further questions comments department ok members chairs recommendation to defer this item and will bring  probably definitely prior to picking up the molokai community plan which by the way you've all received so that's coming up but we'll do we'll do one more round of this and see if there's anything that needs to come out and allowing this you know and the department for coming in and all those who did help you know arguments by so there's a many many parties that have been involved in this all the way through og the sad thing about it is and i see it in this matter is that apparent when we could including couldn't put things in place you know and so i just want people to understand that this process is not a bad process and needs to be changed and we have to be good whenever we said this up you want to move past all around this county or we can do it but are you willing to have your reach reach ten full fifteen for whatever it might be you know so the relate realisation is very important so i think that would be my only comment to the future because dispense you had a comment mr chairman i just think next time you schedule this let us know far enough in advance and we will bring some additional ideas on refinements to the process on how we think things could work ok thank you possible ways our members thank you very much for a very good discussion look forward to seeing any potential options that you might come up with and the department so i'll be working with the department contrary to popular opinion i don't come up with stuff and just out of the blue i'm working with the department most of this is done at the department's request and they help me write that letter as well so just to let you know that this isn't a contrary to popular opinion the at least some opinion that's being out put out there this is not my doing so ye