subcommittee will now come back to order we thank you for your patience and understanding as we had a vote on the floor we will continue and i am going to recognize myself for five minutes and we will go from there according to the records the united states government provides approximately five  n the purpose of our democracy funding is to encourage the development of civil society in order to ensure that venezuelan democracy be as robust and inclusive as possible we have used a number of different tactics over time this program has been in place since two thousand and two and has averaged about five dollars million a year it has gone up and it has gone down initially the democracy program was intended to encourage reconciliation my recommendation to the full committee is that that budget be zeroed out moving forward i want to go back to kind of the sentiment that chavez will use this kind of struggle between the united states for his own benefit i have been pretty consistent on the other side of this feeling so what we have in hugo chavez is a classic bully so he tries to get people to do things based upon fear of what he might do and i think this is an important point instead of looking at what it is that we are fearful that chavez might do we ought to look at what is the right thing to do for national security what is the right thing to do for the people of this country and what is the right thing to do for our friends in latin america and around the world not because of threats from a  there has been some extraditions from venezuela to colombia of some drug kingpins but the reality is that is not due to the actions of the united states that is due to the actions of the president of colombia santos i will remind you of the makled case where we fell asleep at the switch he was arrested on our war warrant when they arrested him the colombians asked if we wanted them and we said we are not interested and then they sent him to venezuela that is why the extraditions are happening not because of some great policy position or foreign policy by the u s government if you care to react to those two statements i would love to hear it mister whitaker thank you mister chairman on the first point i think that the reaction or potential reaction of chavez with respect to the united states and trying to demonize the united states with respect to colombia with respect to the democratic opposition in venezuela are all matters that one can make analysis about they are factors i wouldn't say that any one is necessarily the determining factor what we are looking for is i do thank our witnesses for their testimony this morning i just want to follow up on a couple of issues or questions that were raised at least i would like to raise at this point we do recognize gentlemen that you are just simply following what the statute or at least what we did in the congress passed laws and statutes you are just simply trying to enforce these sanctions laws whether it be for economic reasons or whatever i noted with interest that earlier a say just last year or say in the period of the last five years know my next question for the record exactly how many sanctions do we have against venezuela at this point in time you know i know there are sanctions against individuals sanctions against companies sanctions against officials of the government whitaker well we can go through them there is not fully cooperating on counterterrorism matters which was imposed in may two thousand and six every year since two thousand and five they have been found to have demonstrably failed in their international counter of course they capture venezuelan activities in tehran i am sorry in venezuela because of this active economic partnership but that is the focus of this particular sanction so no i have they been effective if we really wanted to do as part of our foreign policy towards hugo chavez's regime and all that he has done supposedly contrary to our basic fundamental principles of democracy and all of this mister delare well sir i will just speak to the iran side we the relationship or that nexus between venezuela and cuba i want to try to drill down a little bit more and i know we are going to have another round so if we don't get through it all i will continue on the next round for mister benjamin you are the coordinator for counterterrorism at the department of state how many countries are on the list the u s state department list of sponsors of state terrorism benjamin cuba was put on the list i believe in one thousand nine hundred and eighty two because of its support principally for its support of various terrorist and revolutionary movements within the hemisphere and i think it is important to underscore that  cuba has not met the standard for recision which is to say that we need to be able to either certify that there has been a fundamental change in leadership and the country has ceased to support  organizations and has given assurances that it will not support any international terrorism in the future because of its continued relationship with the farc and the eln cuba has failed to meet that standard  robbery against the trooper it was politically motivated and i think most people would consider that a terrorist act so i hope you will become a little more familiar with that case in particular what about  benjamin noted there is evidence in the past of eln and farc members having been present in cuba there are continuing allegations of cuba government involvement in  to work with the cuban government in order to identify and interdict mister rivera before my last few seconds just let me say that in my next round i want to follow up on this because it seems as though we are placing sanctions on venezuela which is not on the terrorist list but more recently we are lifting sanctions on cuba and i will get into that in the next round which is on the terrorist list and in fact is harboring a cop killer from this country so i will go into that in the next round tehran can you speak to the possibility of sanctioning that airline and wouldn't it be possible as well to sanction any airline that flies in and out of tehran if it can be linked to the shipping of sensitive technology andor weapons preliminary answer and then my colleagues may want to follow up as a practical matter we do not discuss designations in public because of the possibility of tipping potential designees regarding the do that and we would certainly look hard at doing that but again i will let those who deal with sanctions and the venezuelan case specifically mister deutch and before they do mister benjamin my point here is i would very much like to tip off that is the purpose of question i would like to tip off any airline that is engaged in transporting this sort of sensitive technology andor weapons into or out of tehran that they would be subject to these sanctions that is what i am trying to confirm many people do you have in your office who are conducting those investigations mister delare at the present time we have four plus support from our legal staff and the intelligence and research how many more investigations could be conducted at one time how many can be conducted by one person let me start with that mister delare that is an interesting question as it now stands we have it divided by sectors and i have i think everyone in the office doing a number of things simultaneously because various let's face it a lot of media reports come in the door they have to be evaluated we then begin checking trade press embassies businesses the intelligence community so it is a investigations well it is not even the pace we are not sure the status of some of these investigations because we are not informed until the end but the frustration that they don't seem to be moving quickly enough could that be addressed if you had additional investigators if you had more than the three and a half people who are responsible for all investigations mister delare i think that is a fair assessment but let me also make two points in regard to that cisada is a relatively new piece of legislation even though it dates back to last july now in the intervening period since then we have set up a procedure that never existed before we have been exceedingly careful to do due diligence on was put on the state sponsorship list for supporting foreign terrorist organizations engaged in activities primarily in this hemisphere but again for repeated acts of support of international  then in answering questions from my colleague mister rivera you outlined some of those terrorist activities can you tell me what the difference is between benjamin i think it is important to underscore that the process of putting a state on the list and the process of taking another state off the list  two very different things we have a very high bar for taking countries off the list we want to make sure that when we put countries on the list that we are not setting such a low threshold that we will  th incur create side effects that will undermine our efforts and our broader national security interest as a result one secretary of state after another has looked very terrorism list which is exactly what chavez is doing in venezuela so why is it that we have cuba as a state sponsor of terror and not venezuela and it goes to this point the inconsistenc another member brought up on one hand we have restricted visas to people in honduras who have fought for and defended their constitution the rule of law their freedom and their country on the other hand there are people in venezuela who are not restricted and they are supporting terrorist organizations so how can cuba under your definition be put on the state sponsor of terrorism list and then benjamin as i said this is about effectiveness and about using the appropriate tools at the appropriate time to elicit the correct response mister mack when is the appropriate time mister benjamin i think that is a matter that we have to evaluate on the basis of the activity going on and i would say sir as we noted earlier if the indicators are going in the right direction it would seem not to be the right time to mister mack you mean the indicators that are being brought about because of another country's actions not ours chavez a sponsor of terror mister benjamin as i said before sir venezuela is engaged in activities that we find unacceptable and we are engaged in a sustained effort to  get them to stop those activities and i think that we are taking the appropriate measured approach to get them to stop those activities in a way that will produce results we may have venezuela i understand that they have bought a considerable amount of weapons mister whitaker that is correct sir the principle purchases that venezuela has made over the course of the last several years have been from russia and they include high performance jet aircraft sukhois which have been delivered they include t seventy two tanks which have not been delivered air defense systems and notably in excess of one hundred thousand  purchases to replace superannuated old antiquated equipment you might for example say that with respect to the sukhois venezuela had long been a nation which purchased u s jet aircraft ment then you have examples of new capabilities and the t seventy two tanks would be a new capability which traditionally venezuela has not had mister sires isn't there also a factory that was built in venezuela to make  there is actually more that we can provide to you on this in a different setting mister sires the reason i ask that is because i had conversation with members of other countries and one of the countries that i had conversations with was panama and they have found that venezuela has tried to significant concern if venezuela were to start exporting weapons of war to other nations i think that what we have seen principally over the course of the last several years is rather than exporting munitions and weapons and venezuela as a matter of policy has chosen to spread a lot of money into the population and this has meant less money available to support these foreign refinery in cuba that activity has not been completed and then finally cuba apparently charges for the doctors and other experts that it provides who work in venezuela the numbers of which i mean they are estimates and we of their oil that is the only thing that is holding us back isn't it mister whitaker again mister chairman i think that it is broader than that i think that that is a factor i think that the economic relationship broadly stated there are dozens and dozens of u s companies that do business in airlines so these kinds of factors need to be taken into account as well in addition to the effect on democratic development within venezuela the diplomatic outreach that our neighbors have engaged in mister chaffetz let me go to mister szubin there let's talk about  the secretary with the signature of her pen can allow the keystone xl pipeline to move through move forward which then we wouldn't need to buy the oil from venezuela and if we don't buy the oil from venezuela he cannot continue to sponsor terror so it seems pretty simple maybe you can explain it why it is not that simple i would hesitate to ever tell a congressman that it wasn't that simple but it isn't mister mack go for it mister delare well in fact i fully appreciate your argument about alternate energy sources and in fact the oil sands project will probably take ten years to come online  friends in canada mister delare that is very true but we have to look at the market as it stands today and we are in a very difficult economic patch as you well know sir and mister mack you can't look at the market in just today mister delare well i will even look at it for the next five years and say we have to make adjustments but in the meantime we have to get that energy from somewhere mister chaffetz i guess as i wrap up here i would just say there is a concerted effort to say we are okay with the terrorism as long as we keep the price of gas low down here and that is the concern that i and the other countries who are on the terrorist list direct flights north korea you said sudan and iran how many direct flights a day mister szubin i don't know but i would be happy to look into that and  trading with the enemies act flights between the united states and cuba an enemy are regulated by you mister szubin yes mister rivera the only flights that exist according to the enemies list would like to know not only how many flights but who is chartering those flights what companies own the airplanes that are chartering those flights are you familiar with that who are chartering or what companies own the planes  tell you is that to operate a charter service with respect to cuba you need to be licensed by our office so there is an elaborate process which travel service providers or charter service providers need to come in they need to make all sorts of showings as to exactly the questions you are talking about their ownership and mister rivera so you should be intimately familiar with these flights mister szubin if i had a better memory i could recite the names of all these charter companies for you offhand but that just implore you again in the future and i would ask that the administration work with us in a providing witnesses in a timely manner and providing testimony the written statements forty eight hours in advance so that we can do our jobs as well