procedures if there is an emergency we'll all meet in the south parking lot which is right behind where we're sitting but i was near that direction because i have a hard time with north and south but south is that when additions deletion twenty seven religion international airport to subdivide a sixteen thousand five hundred ninety six square for what developed with a single family dwelling into two watts of money five hundred square feet large in number one and seven thousand and ninety six square get for the record i'm dave marshall from civil engineering associates appearing on behalf of burlington international airport this application seeks to subdivide an existing property and to absorb  that developed portion of the property into an adjacent undeveloped parcel immediately adjacent this is an application that has been before the board in the past about a year ago the reason the mylar was not filed in the fact that there was some appraisal issues and that ultimately an agreement between f a and all their parties on regards to the property valuation ultimately did not allow for a timely filing of mine however those issues are now behind us i understand so we appear back before you for an introduction of this particular proposed subdivision slash boundary line adjustment to reflect the goals of the current property owner who again had approached the airport with regard to this parcel this is their entire parcel the one i'm circling right now and they are looking at subdividing off this particular parcel and selling it to the airport who owns all parcels all around it so ultimately this will become a more whole block of land owned by the airport  staff report which has the or the cover sheet of the staff report actually utilizes the best available ortho photography that depicts the lack of homes in the immediate vicinity of the subject property and you can see this is the airport on the east parking your parking facility and this is the parcel that issue they're looking more normal shape so it's nothing more exciting than that and that i'm afraid by the airport because you represent the airport as the applicant rather than the owners and the owners basically actively use the portion of the property closest to the street that the back portion was not actively used the airport was purchasing land within the desert full impact range for residential properties and this particular portion of the property fell in that area my understanding is that it represented an opportunity for an exchange of funds to basically allow the airport to own more contiguous lands and for these particular property owners to own a parcel that complies with the rules and actually was more in character with the old neighborhood in regards to lot sizes this happen to be very narrow a lot when you look at this when you see that the original layout of the subdivision lands these are all single family lot said this is going to be the retained portion that back that flag will call a flag lot but that back portion again will all become part of the holdings of the or is the return portion my understanding they've all been removed the airport has no plans to doing that with that property that i don't know it's not suitable for residential use but other commercial uses are acceptable i  it's like you know what i don't need please describe your project or i'm sorry law three is actually a project that has appeared before the board before and it's a recurring theme tonight that in that particular case the applicant was not able to pull a permit within six months of the original approval primarily because the tenant backed out and therefore we're back again with the new tenants a slightly modified design as far as the building footprint slightly larger than before staff to the job identifying characteristics of the project and out of all that to orient you north is to the left on this particular plan this is actually one sixteen road this is the ryan meadows project at which point there's a loop road comes around it's a little bit longer like this and this is ultimately a future east west connector that will go further west at some point in the future but as far as this particular project there were is as part of the mix use project a number of commercial lots have been proposed and  ultimately as far as their use approved along this section between rice circle and one sixteenth of the concept at the time was to have these particular buildings communicate with rice circle and not route one sixteen so and then on lot three this particular building is nearing completion and then there's a lot to and this is the subject of the application before the board tonight where we're basically looking at for all intents and purposes purposes in filling as part of the master plan development of this particular area we have parking lots that basically service each one of these laws and in this particular case law to again has a its communication component facing the street and i guess i could spend more time but i'll leave it at that for questions to fill in more appropriate points of interest of the board wo yeah so he has a landscaping plan right here so there's a real one sixteen i'm sorry rudin this is the right circle side right and i guess one of the one of the desires of the development review board and previous  guidance given to the afghan was that they wanted the communication the entryways facing right circles of the back side is not going to have a dedicated doorway or a walkway out to the street it will have a traditional back side of the building i will have to admit i drive by this particular place a lot our offices across the street and the buildings are done tastefully done  have nothing stuck out at me as being adverse that's obviously very personal reference but that being the background to answer your question yes there will be some proposed foundation landscaping on the back side of the building to again break up explain what changed we did move some doorways and some windows around the use changed i mean it's still general office but we had a we had a buyer we thought for this building and they kind of fell off question is there a way to bring up she a two zero two it's one of the elevations in this particular case what it's going to show is actually the rear side of the building so again not a traditional back of the building does provide some semblance of at least character as you look at it from one sixteenth so again and again from a personal standpoint didn't seem to bother me and  well we have storm water management swells on the back side a couple of them one that deals with runoff from one sixteen another one that deals with runoff from these particular projects shrubs trees to like a in stone for them to yell yeah yeah yeah it's in a setting like this you don't want all the buildings to look a lot like totally alike you want to have some diversity if you're into the stone house building it's kind of a cool pool of the one just the north of this one that's kind of their central piece the building south of this one that we're building now that they use a lot of these temper frames to show then to the building off a little bit entrance way takes up a lot of real estate within a building but are you going to have signage that points folks to the entrance isn't to go to the the southern parking lot that would be working for the entrance ways  or we will and typically how we do this is you know well well we'll put a placeholder where we think signage should be on the building but signage is a separate parliament with the city so we have to treat it separately but yes we've talked to the owners about appropriately having signage here to direct people it's it's fairly obvious that the north lot is going to be used mainly by employees it's so but yes the i think there's a way here to make it work with si them anyways on item one the original ryan meadows project was permitted on the water supply of waste water suppose a land as a master planned development which had commercial components as far as design flows so that's something that we will be able to or we have to do as part of ultimately our active fifty permit also is demonstrate compliance with water source so no issues they're moving forward under that particular i don't want to do you want to just walk our way through each one so i did two staff recommends the board discuss with the upcoming whether they have provided adequate enclosure space for trash recycling and com closet within an entryway that works for them you'll see on the south side that's my job you do have a yes that right there is are secured with fencing around this is the same concept that we're doing with the building to the south of the building to the south is going to have their own equivalent of that that we're building right now so be the same same thing so the question in our minds to discuss with you guys was just to make sure that you have adequate space because it's easier to make sure you have adequate space now than to have to come back later when mandatory composting comes into play closer the same size when i look at an office that's fifty seven hundred square feet or so lot less employees and traffic i think will be more than  we didn't plan for the mandatory composting if it's a good point but i do think we'll have plenty room i think we've had this discussion before where what we end up finding out is that some of the particular ways get reduced in size  that we can actually substitute out for yard one for two smaller type container kind of almost like the residential role ones would be adequate here i think for their use one of this particular size structure and how it appears this is a regular yes that's my understanding typically we're in the twenty to fourteen feet range depending on how much you're you don't want to light the intensity what we're looking for for even distribution so thirty feet  big parking lot trying to be as efficient as possible and that's that's not the character of what we're looking for here and so you say there's thirteen feet more as i would play paul's they're proposing are between twelve and eighteen for this property well then what eighteen eighteen so the next after come and make it so what you're thinking about a little but in the prior review the board noted that there was no spillage of light on into rice circle which is the direction of the residential  there was a lighting plan put into place that there wasn't spillage over onto your neighbor's property in a manner that would adversely affect the way that they enjoy their property in this particular case the spillage is out into right circle and  often has happened in the past where we're trying to light an intersection to basically provide for safe access or at least acknowledgement of where the driveway cut is and in that particular situation you're always going if the property line is right here for example once there it is right there and you're trying to intervene trying to light the pavement portions that in the past has never been in issue but that being the background marla's right that we this was a change from the previous middle to the board and it was worthy of the police bringing before you to make sure that we had that you know it was brought to your attention and if you or any issues we could go through that i would argue that since you've added that northern strip of parking you have those employees have to get from the building to it and so at the very least they need some going to light on that front sidewalk good i understand you correctly that the standard is an average for the for the whole property there's an average for the whole property to not exceed a certain foot candles and there is  units here are the same as it should be as the should be for lighting on the sidewalk as john said you know ok i don't five staff recommends the board require the applicant to update the plans to show evergreen screening around the utility cabinets and we case the long term parking is intended paraphrase now to provide secure space for somebody store their bike rather than having it inside the building the applicant's proposing a structure that is dedicated for those particular bicycle storage areas a loft facility outside of the building and there were some recommendations further from staff as far as again how to actually organize the bicycles within the structure i think all of those things are appropriate in order to basically achieve the goals set forth in the regulations  that is that so i'm seeing a proposed bike rack to the east side of the parking lot is that where the long yesterday these are the short term parking spaces and then there's an enclosure proposed here or taking over matt if i open this one closure after enclosure this is a typical picture of it they provided so if you like a shed also indicated that he was going to propose to move the short term by parking to the entrance of the building  requirement to rationale behind the roubaix and it's based on the square footage of the building and the use so for a five thousand square foot building minimum it's two for a long term and then the short term is a different number think it's so is there any reason in this particular circumstance you can just generally anything more or less indiscriminately dump snow into the grass you swell me is just if you could educate back to that from a legal standpoint it's not intended to preclude you from putting it further out here from a practical standpoint if you ever saw somebody trying to manage snow in the winter time they're basically doing what they can to get it to this particular edge and usually doesn't go any further than that unless you provide them a stable surface to keep their truck tires from disappearing into the lawn i got so that's why it's shown in an area that would represent probably the maximum footprint of what actually  continued final plot application estie seventeen twenty eight of j m golf l l c to subdivide a forty seven point nine nine acre parcel developed with a golf course in two eleven lots ranging in size from point three seven to it's a good bet it's ok with us ochre pursuit this particular project or this application represents probably about sixteen years of culmination of sixteen years of friendly discussion between the out can't in the city  in two thousand and one a plant application was submitted and ultimately denied by the planning commission at the time that's how long ago this was all tingly discussed tied together with the appeal of the master plan approval provided by the development review board at the time and and now twenty seventeen where we're finally having gone through many steps of both the environmental court and the supreme court have landed back before with an application that had instructions from the court in regards to how the application was to be submitted and the things that had been approved as far as waivers by up all the old plans and reconciling what the original plumeri plan application looked like and what the final plan application looks like today things that occurred in the timeframe between two thousand and one in two thousand and ten helped shape some of the modifications of the plan was that at one point in time the proposed roadway in from golf course road into the site  project a number of streets this is she called course road runs in the north south direction and the project of interest is right here you'll see that the force did portion of the property  the primary area of the proposed ten lot subdivision the golf course intermingles amongst all the other residential lots and condominiums within the project area this application is located on the eastern half of the golf course property there is also a golf course and some residential development on the west side also but here this is the area that we're interested in you can see on this particular staff report this little tail that comes in off of the main body of what we call parcel s parcel left is the open space parcel that akim that supports the golf course recently probably a couple months ago maybe three  now we appeared before you to seek a subdivision approval for twenty three i a cruise off of the eastern side of parcel lef that was part of the settlement agreement with the city in which they would acquire ownership of this particular twenty three acre open space area this particular ten lot subdivision is will be removing some of that land from the remaining portions of the parcel left and what i was getting at was this little tale the blue area down in the far south west corner represents how this wooded area accesses the public street called golf course road that runs in the north south direction anyways what we're trying to build our foundation for was that we all are here looking at it for the first time i say that too because it seems like it was so long ago that i've had to do the exact same thing marley did recently arise ourselves with all the features so that being the background this shows you obviously the fifty thousand foot up in the air view of the site and we can go to the other sheets to help us get a better understanding of the characteristics  of where this is within our bought national country club and the characteristics of the the lands that are here like lawrence is here to assist us tonight like did the landscaping plans which represented not only the tree retention plan but also the supplemental plantings associated with the application so this is for this is for frank and all the other attorneys in the office to read the stipulation from the court or the consent decree that being the background from judge wright we'll keep on going if we can agreement between the parties but none change anything that's here before us tonight so this represents one of the platte plans that identifies what you see in the far top left corner is golf course road this is the rights of way that basically comes in often the public street  to a proposed cul de sac and then we have a private street disservices the remaining three lots with a hammer head turn around at the end of this particular plan shows it in a very simplistic manner but if we continue on with on the property and the relationship of closed infrastructure the lot building on the lopes associated with each lot and there's infrastructure that runs in along the roadway as far as water sewer power gas that ultimately all comes in and continues down what we call we have a long drive and short drive to ultimately get to the terminus eastern terminus of this particular project other features in the area this is the thirteenth green of the vermont national country club this is the eleventh t overall goodness the north side here what is more or less the forested limits this is an area with a rise in the land and bedrock that's why the farmer never chose to remove these trees because he didn't want  doing in the meantime is reconciling what has been lost not only in the most recent windstorm but also since two thousand and ten when the regional application was submitted for the final plant approval so that being the background we can continue to kind thumb through these this is the profile of the project and we talk a little bit about staff report and the numbering system but only continue to thumb through here a little bit further standard typical details and sections eventually will get to some of mike's handy work that actually shows his depiction of the existing conditions as it relates to the vegetation on the property of course landscape architect uses color so mike being a colorful person that he is i'll let you talk a little bit about what your plans attempted to do and out of all that bring the board up to speed on that incoming road exists and which will be built was part of this so currently today there are two homes that share a driveway that comes up through here this would this portion would have to be reconstructed to conform with city standards but there is a shared driveway right now that basically services the home of particular location on the north and in this home self is their edges golf course road those two homes  there now and i understand they bought it probably understanding that there would be in these with there but right now it's a driveway with which is probably sixteen or eighteen feet or something like that us or less and so if it's if it could feel less intrusive i would think it would be beneficial that's just my take in fire department probably will have a whole different view and they're so good segue john as far as pulling the fire department and they will look for a minimum standard twenty feet you know curve so we're talking about a four foot difference i do appreciate your thoughts on that and you know one of the one of the benefits of making it narrow or good or bad is that it will  narrow it is the less people are going to feel that they can park parallel within that traveled way i would like to think that we would try to minimize the impacts on those two property owners in some way the best way that we can and not having a new neighbors visitors spill out into their side yards that's an interesting idea of ours as far as how we could we do want the existing houses to have a new feeling about their driveway we do want them to feel that this is no longer a place that they can simply want to cross or their kids dogs cats can simply run across we do want them to have a new so curbing is going to be very important and signage annoyed stuff and striking in the streets and it's going to have a whole different feel than just a driveway for safety but it will have a sidewalk also oh ok i hope it's going to have a suburban feel the question all twenty years farmers haven area where clinton hole here yeah no i'm talking about you up by the top i'm sorry if you if you traveled up golf course road a slightly past i think it's eighty eight and turned right now you couldn't access back that way and and well i'm just suggesting is it is there's this pretty pretty big big impact yes this is a and so from i certainly from the golf course that was the first thing here is that they have their golf cart path they haven't helped house or house you relieve yourself that way here as well as golf teams so trying to put a roadway in here would change that significantly yes but never came up as a thought is this not the golf course that's building it to ok so who cares of the r c you know when we get back to the site plan you see that there's a very steep slope on this particular side ok and doesn't avail itself as a natural way to access this particular property so this when you look at the profile you you come up the hill and then you come back down the hill on the other side this has a much steeper slope so to confirm this but my interpretation or what what is fact is that the court upheld the applicant's request to make the road twenty four feet when the board at the time of the roadway to be wider my interpretation is then therefore that we should be able to allow them to make it narrower at the board so desires if the applicant wants to make it narrower now but that part's interpretation and one check on  first but at the time the board wanted wider and the applicant want to narrower and now it's almost burlington he and i spent a lot of time out here putting little metal pins in trees numbering trees and noting them and sending dave survey crew back and forth and the attempt was to save as much as many trees as we could in the so there was a lot of adjusting of the sort of the building envelopes and so these are going to be these houses are going to have smaller footprints than normal  and i can't remember exactly what the sizes are but but we very specifically staked out zones for building and we based that on trying to save as many big trees as we could we in the on that plan as you kind of see some red ribbons running around those are a stone retaining walls so that  we as quickly as possible get from where we have to grade down to existing grade and warren as we walked said will we need about this many feet for this tree we need about this many feet for that tree  there and i first took a walk out and realize that there weren't as many down as the sort of the your impression of what it looked like and the second time i went i went back and much more carefully walked in there's really only three trees that were trees that were proposed to be saved that are within the the watts or within the road right of way that came down there were other trees that were down but they were in areas that were being cleared anyway and the other trees that were down were outside the perimeter of the lots so all in all it look like there were a lot of things down but in broad sense we really only lost three trees that we were hoping to save  the only other thing i guess to talk about is you know we're we're we're putting in street trees tucking them in where there's going to be open spaces and we are planting lots of evergreens around the outer edges of it there was a lot of conversation as this has gone through different different venues and back and forth of screening this from the outside so let me ask you this and as far as i can tell the this whole new tent ten new houses basically it's in the middle of a development consisting of other houses of people who want to live on a golf course and it's going to be sold to ten people who when with i don't get the sense of maybe i'm wrong topographically that much of this is going to impact the view from any general public roads or in my room about it you're absolutely right about that so it's a kind of specialized in field development for golfers with the money to buy to save as much as possible that's great i'm going to i'm going to quibble about the driveway but but but the work you're doing is obviously terrific yeah i think it's a nice display once you look carefully at the legend of the some nice display of what stays what goes the brown rose through green states in the symbols for trying to save and all that stuff i think you've got a beautiful job of putting  intro to stuff comments on the permit history history of this project is as dave alluded to extremely complex the application has been appealed to  environmental court and then appealed to the superior court or spring for a few times the things which are the subject of the board's review are the things which are different from what courts tickle ations approved and things i guess that's it it's just the things that are different so up at the beginning of the stuff commons there is a those listed pages yes three and four for most of the three four three four five and six these are not the standards used to seeing the standards which were in in place  whatever it was two thousand and six or forever ago so you have to put on your long time ago when you really think we've got a machine right  but you're saying we have a limited we have limited we have limited scope and limited powers yes well you'll just have to stop us at times like this so with that in mind questions about the  driveway i don't know that the driveway hasn't changed at dannelly it's changed a small amount i don't believe the board has the authority to require them to realign the driveway unless they are already proposing something dramatically different they're proposing us a minor adjustment we feel that the court would say that's insignificant and doesn't warrant a full throw in the way of the prior decision  legal opinion on that that minor adjustment whether whether or not it is your opinion is nice but marla frankly you haven't were involved in a way back when either i'd like  to hear from the city attorney that that's the case because i think it's a mistake the location of the location there is you can live frank if you could if you if you looked at the picture just above this you can line up one road with the other road and have them absolutely create a t intersection it would be perfect and there's no reason for this well except except probably money but  you know that's that's not my concern this is in the wrong place if we have a supreme court decision that locates the road there that's a permit that we don't have well i mean hearing your your opinion and my opinion is different the i'd like to see it somewhere else and and if and if there's a deal with a preview of the back and if the city attorney agrees with you that then i'll then i'll give up what whether we can compel them to move the dr yes i well i guess the simpler answer is what it would be would you all be interested in asking for that if the answer is no then there's no point getting an opinion well the only reason it would be no now is because i'm sorry john the answer's obvious it's a major change that if they want to change if you can persuade them to change it and they want to was i don't know but i'm assuming the supreme court judgment holds and if that's the case then i don't think we have s and that little loop that you see is the is the outhouse and backs up to the to the back actually it's sort of half on one lot and happen another right so you could put the road right through there and accomplish all the same things and tied up with the intersection it doesn't stop us from actually question are you guys interested in doing that because you know you've been playing around with this for fifteen years anyway i guess but you know if you think it's a good  with fairway drive off c puts it very close to this house you can see the separation of these two homes in relationship to what is the proposed roadway into the site and those homes as mark indicated are set up specifically for that in mind i'm not sure if this particular person would be real excited about having a roadway next to their home but at this point in time based on where we've been and where we are today i think  the my client would say we would like to proceed with the plumbing area applied approval from the court good stuff come in the morning have lost before in this particular case what the discussion points are is primarily how water is potable water public water is distributed amongst the site historically there was an agreement between the applicant and the water department on how this particular project would represent a phase one extension of the water main through the remaining develop the future development areas of the project site justin is taking a little bit further in regards now had i had a question about is this about the potable water quality versus quantity it's more reliability issue when the water departments or any designers looking at designing and water distribution system having it what we call looped which means comes in a complete loop if we find that there is a portion of the system that needs to be worked on that you could shut off some valves in the people on either side can still continue to be served without shutting off everybody so there are benefits as far as redundancy when it comes to fire flows being able to pull water from two different directions creates significant improvements in hydraulic performance of the system so there are residual benefits of creating these looped components of of the system so there are loops currently within throughout the national country club project in fact there are water mains today that cross portions of the golf course where there is no secondary benefits no homes or commercial businesses that benefit from those lines other than the fact that it completes the looping of the system so this request is a so i will just push back there she for does shoulder the size of the water mains but it's on the profile it's not on the plan view so the comment is correct here is information if you dig deep enough but we are happy to lead the size of  two and they provided reckon i can jump in marla's they recommended that the law at the minimum size line for the private road be two inch and that for the main line on the public road be eight inch we're carrying eight inch all the way through the public and the private road portions because ultimately that's part of the future looping that's going to go throughout the remaining portions of them are national country club so ok as much as national board of the got one way with a two inch line it's part of the master plan that it's chief we have no issue with that they specifically talk about the character of the radio i coming in off the off course road and either modifying it to make it very large which is inconsistent with perhaps some of the things we just talked about here or just making sure that if it's a narrow aren't radio that is mountable which would basically be a different type of current shape to facilitate emergency vehicles large vehicles to fact we have done it so we will provide that plan and in the near future hopefully for a good number six it's a little complicated no problem read the order and here here's the point who were the parties to the will to the order that said it needs to be twenty four  feet my understanding is this wasn't a contested order other words got to a certain plot point in the proceedings and then there was an agreement reached is that correct i guess that would be what we call the settlement agreement with the settlement agreement and that was reflected in the court's order carrots or yes so there are parties to that so let's treat that court for from my perspective to keep it simple i'm treating that stipulated order as something that's binding unless everybody who participated in the settlement agrees to change it so my question is who were the participants of the seven so that would have persons that's that's my concern and i was i don't disagree with john on the substance of what he's saying i don't want to impose on these people any more than that's a serious but all these people are interested unless they have dropped out say it's possible that that people who start out as interested parties by the time they get to court just drop out and don't want to play a role to the extent they no longer play a role they were relevant but to the extent they were still in and signed off on this settlement they are in title to be heard and and since this is a court since that contract has been translated into a court order we can vary it without their consent you follow what i'm saying yes that are either side of the driveway sent a letter oh yeah yeah about it but how about the rest i'm not sure but my guess is if you asked the current interested parties they probably could find the other interested parties pretty quickly well i think i think that is a procedural necessity if we want to do that and if it's worth two and i don't know whether it's worth doing i we're talking about six feet but i think it would be more attractive that way or a start four feet property owners and also from michael and heather provost who are listed as interested parties on the on the decision judgement reversal so  those are included in public record and i think that point i think frank raises a good point about needing their consent if the driveway or the with is to be reduced from twenty twenty four to one might be in your interest as developers to reduce that some right so maybe it's worthwhile writing a letter all these people say look this is what we'd like to do we kid do it most you agree cause it's a court order what do you say it so as far as at least so we're all the same wave length as far as the portion of the road i think the applicant is interested in narrowing the road as it comes from golf course road as it proceeds past the two residential properties i think we are a little concerned about narrowing it beyond that because of the need for on street parking so i think it's far as scope that would be what we would be talking about if we put the interested person discussion aside and and just dove right into a condition of approval we would hope that would be just limited to that first section of roadway but frank's point is good so when i suggest you drop the where you want to approve at twenty feet subject to change the sub subject to the ability to to do that with the with the interested parties and otherwise it's approved based on the twenty four they can't build that they wouldn't be able to build it without the consent i'm saying we would have to put it subject to the consent but whatever so i hear john saying a condition of approval would be the roadway can be built at twenty feet for that f section how we want to describe it provided that consent is acquired from the interested parties but i suppose which point four raises job it would be ok dave show me that the of signed off otherwise you revert back to twenty four i would always suggest the board if you're interested in doing down this road to continue this i spun right where so that we can i think i can that doesn't determine whether we can even do this at all i don't well first of all i don't i don't agree as i think about it i don't agree with john that we can do it that way because it's a stipulated because it is what it is that which would be immaterial from a supreme court perspective becomes material and therefore before you bring it to us needs to be noticed as a change to the limit to to go all those are just a persons i agree with you as a pure physical matter if if they didn't already have a say under the existing order it might be a material but not  you want to continue and come back in two weeks with the answer i mean two weeks isn't  or if the decision is they want to do it it's got to be formally it really has to be formally noticed right but they can let us know in two weeks whether they want to do it or not it sounds like dave needs to go talk to  well the other thought the other thought and i don't know whether this is realistic or not is this the way that you built the twenty four feet of road could change twenty feet of it could be asphalt four feet of it could be something else i don't know landscaping and the construction of the construction details or the driveway and so on they also spoke about the concerns of trees that were taken down on thirteenth maybe fourteen by barret this past year yes were those just dead trees that were it was a combination of i don't know if you can bring up a plan to help orient you in regards to that activity but i spoke to david evans the superintendent of the golf course and they did take down some dead trees they took down some growth that have occurred behind the green and they also cut down some trees here and the reason they did that is that one thing with golf courses and specially greens with extremely short grass maintaining grass is that you're looking for a good air movement to basically minimize various types of diseases that can take hold and the other thing is that in the morning time you're also looking to try to gain add light into the area and it basically helps means and the if there were some take the both the air movement more specifically the sun excess in the morning so that's what would the background was of the golf course nathan's activity had nothing to do with anything here they took down two dead trees on the side near the car path and they took down some secondary growth that had come up since the course was originally built in ninety eight to basically try to improve the air movement through this area so that was what the activity was staff's concern was that it might have been inconsistent with the tree retention plain my feeling is that the tree retention plan was intended to basically deal with this mass and not the little finger on the end here so that being the background in the fact that all of these trees were all going to be retained as part of the tree retention plan was kind of like a no harm no foul aspect but that's not a technical term but again that's what the intent was in had nothing to do with this application in regards to intent or proceeding with construction prior to approvals how does how does taking down a tree of the call of course change compared to taking down a little apple tree that i took down a couple years ago and had to replace it are not sure these trees are not trees that were required to be planted as part of the golf course these were existing trees that were left when they built the golf course sort of like a forest forested area and if the city did approve any maintenance plan for the golf course when a very first came in there was a very extensive description of all the practices they were going to use in building and maintaining a golf course over years so i'm assuming that there must be something in there about removing of trees when they're too high or in the way or whatever i mean you can just build this course and not never cut a tree or branch the whole time it's there that's true of buildings to y but that but the city doesn't seem to care about that so i'm asking this is different than a tree that was required to be planted as part of a building and it's being removed or fall in the well when we approve something that where there's preexisting trees there approved as part of the plan too so these are preexisting trees that were part of a plan i'm not trying to make them put six up and trying to stop making me have to put six  guess so to go to raise point just to burn thirty more seconds of your lives there are times when applicants will come in and ask for credits for retention of existing trees as part of a compliance of how to satisfy the value of landscaping required based on a proposed building what i'm hearing ray say and i would agree that these particular trees where the be over here whether it be over here weren't part of a program to basically demonstrate compliance with the regulations at the time and i've been through with rain before where there was an approved tree and it had grown to a beautiful size and we know it's got to come down he says you've got to put it back the value of when it was originally installed but one it is what it  and the question is did what you were doing in whatever trees you cut and however you want about it comply with the treatment preservation and start to question what your answer and be do you know the only outstanding question from stuff are the few trees that were cleared within the tree preservation area which i'd be mailed dave about and i don't think that we have the chance to close that loop we were able to identify a few four to six inch trees the tree preservation hymn book excludes a few categories of trees things under two inches things that are invasive things that are tattered diseased things that could damage other things if the trees that were cleared were in those categories and within the tree preservation area it's fine that they were moved if they weren't then as we were talking about they should be they need to be replaced otherwise the large trees out by eleven and thirteen were outside of the area and granted and this is the final approval right now right now there is nothing on the books legally as far as the final approval of any plan and yewtree retention plan or anything of that nature but the tree maintenance plan was approved as part of the preliminary plot yes we concur and that we need to correct anything that has occurred between what was presented  go to marla's point is that anything that has changed from the plumbing a plat is open for you to go how come and your that's what you're doing frank you're saying how come you did something and the fact that we did final plan approval so include into this in the materials list and section two of four point one of the city's subdivision regulations and effect on two thousand and one the plan submitted exhibit such and such the tree preservation plan for vermont national country club ten lots of division level of law by warren specter there you go and the tree inventory and reports that were admitted as exhibits eight fifty two and fifty three and for each lot a tree preservation handbook including definitions of all out arborist as to compliance with a true preservation plan number b or letter big prior to implementation many feel changes out council notify city officer and c and so forth so we're just assuming that you're going to do all this stuff and you guys are all going to be happy with what they do happiness is going to be like expensive so so i think this go ahead mark responses and by let's dive into this further but i think this is all going to be this is going to be like a nice little package with a bore round you know you're going to do what it says so i don't want to avoid frank's question m has been on the property more than me or anybody else here right so i wanted to have mike to at least explain what his observations were in that area i'm sorry it looked ok i'm not being clear with you i think i was clear upfront about my personal feeling about the landscape right the only reason i'm coming back to the issue is because we're here to protect the public interest and to the extent that in a joiner or a landowner is voicing something that is incorporated into an order then they are speaking for the public interest as far as i'm concerned and we have a duty to listen it's not just somebody griping personally about their feelings which i could listen to polite i'm sorry it ok my feeling on that is that the applicant has no responsibility to do anything more than required by good judgment or these in the neighbor has every right to say are they abiding by the judgment order and that's what i think that doing but he's already telling us that they haven't i believe and that they are not good and and are not under under because there hasn't been a final they are not under any pressure to do so on the contr think you took down some trees that the existing tree preservation plan says you would not have taken down i don't believe that's true i believe that there are some trees blew over  and i don't pull i don't believe that the trees a day was describing are part of the tree preservation plan my understanding the tree preservation plan are the trees that are on the lots that were all the trees that were tagged  which are all the all the numbered trees that are on the plant and i think everything outside of that was not on the tree preservation but i think that if that's true if you can say we did not we did not take down trees that were deep preserved under the trees preservation plan then you've answered the question you're saying that he has to certify that and or somebody has to certify that yes and that's what you're saying right now that's my belief i've the only thing that i would have to do is go back and make sure that those specifically are the trees that are the tree preservation plant those were the trees that we're most concerned about because of the construction around the units and there wasn't any intention of touching anything  are there concerns the court ordered tree preservation plan for the wooded area we would like to make sure this is fully in force has this been in effect several trees were cut down last winter spring by bears tree service quite a few years  course so i hear that concern i think agree with you on the specific language of exactly what is the tree preservation plan what does that what does that represent my understanding is  represents all of the trees that have little little tags in other words one to thirty on lot one hundred twenty two on what to do you can you don't really think so there's two things there's the tree preservation plan which is exactly what you're referring to and then there's the tree preservation handbook which is a little bit larger in scope the tree preservation handbook relates to construction activities and homeowner behavior after the lots are developed  the stipulation of the court refers to the tree both of those things the preservation hymn book and the tree preservation plan and the question staff had is that it remains some reason i agree that the trees that worthwhile are shoes that were cut were not subject to the tree of preservation plant there are a few smaller trees that i believe were subject to the tree preservation handbook which are not necessarily the type ones it's anything that's not that's over two inches that's not these are dangerous or whatever and that's the question that staff has is for those trees subject to the tree i think those things will cut down a long time ago but we've all been going at this for twenty years so i don't know if they were cut before the you know before this was going to be when we started this or not but they looked like a really old to me that they didn't look like they were freshly cut trees so so you know what this is being continued other comments questionnaires public granted us two  unit to bedroom drawing units and redistributing the uses in the cell section of the building such that eleven thousand two hundred square feet are medical offices and the remaining seventeen thousand five hundred square feet are general office at twenty offices and the standard register and all those people that were computer people were in the building and i was the computer started taking over it seemed like they didn't need a lot of office space so i came to the conclusion that this section of the north side which is almost independent of the main building would be a good spot for residential in the last meeting i came in here looking for twelve units but since i stuck with a structural engineer he said the building wasn't quite made for having that extra weight on the roof so i'd been that idea and went back to putting the units inside the building and went to nine units because it's an amendment tacked to fifty which is simpler and  value the applicant is posing one thousand eight hundred forty four dollars in plantings and the op is requesting that the cost of the hearts keep elements of the recreation area and the sculptures in the front of the property be applied to the required landscaping value  believe that they would they actually movement and they over they kept kept them away ten inches away from the building so there is some probably some movement of the wind but mostly it should be just spinning around  was a tree in the front of this thing and it was some tree that that we were acquired to put in back in one thousand nine hundred one and the tree got out of hand and kept the moisture against the stucco of the building and it  already have granted but you don't need granted half of the time period we're not really sure what you can do or can do really we have granted a six month extension have granted six months one give or another six we're going to break the rules anyway now would be a year and a half for your letter here so i'm just or keep the annual break as typical what is the first meeting in august so you can either have a hearing on the fireworks are going off in burlington or you could take that day off and have a hearing the first