and we'll turn to the second case in our calendar today usa versus gregory herman reasonable suspicion will violate the fourth amendment and the district court here concluded and there's no dispute the trooper saucer didn't fact extend the stop after the warning was issued when he continued the stop to conduct a dog sniff of the car and we are argue that there wasn't reasonable suspicion to support this we also argue though that the stop was extended even before this when as he was searching mr putney trooper saucer began to ask a series of questions about mr karr putney's comings and goings and then saved into more questions about his relationship with mr herman's mr herman's comings and goings in mr herman's family and we argue that this is the point where the stock was extended where trooper saucer moves into a drug investigation mode and this is the point which reasonable suspicion must be judged looking to the factors that the district court identified mr herman argues that these are irrelevant wrong misinterpreted and failed to account for the fact that on the one hand the authorities determined mr herman was not there suspect and that on the other   is that at that point they knew that this information they had that they were waiting for a suspected drug courier that information pertained to different people were chained to a different part of the state entirely your particular allies information that there's illegal activity ongoing at that point we don't think that the general suspicion that they had about mr putney and his drug dealing create sort of a blanket authorization to stop them we think a holding along those lines would be to say you know once you have that information you can stop mr putney any time any place whether he's on his way to church whether he's at church whether is at the beach with his family was some period of time during which they could ask him questions and during which trooper slusser if i'm pronouncing that correctly could ask him questions in connection with giving him a warning the traffic on the right yes but we  think and argue you know that the kind of questions you can ask have to be limited to the to the traffic stop the highway safety concern and the you know registration concerns and not drug case doesn't survive rodriguez and in harrison you know the court approved those sorts of questions because they extended the truck traffic stop only a little bit rodriguez of course district court i think it's implicit and we certainly argue right now i think it's it's included in in the idea that the traffic stop was extended but extended beyond the period  cases glover and hamilton suggest it needs to be more of a make this a meaningful factory those cases involve the what the court has called the dubious express bus to buffalo and involves you know behavior on the part of the  putney was and they realized that mr herman must not be the person they were looking for but in terms of the source you know the figures cited by the government below some fourteen thousand bags of heroin know covered all such forms of public transportation into vermont for almost a year and we think that suggests nothing more than a trickle of drugs into vermont on public transportation and nothing more than that the vast vast majority of people arriving in vermont on public transportation are doing so entirely lawfully i think there are two other reasons to be skeptical both because our system is organized around hubs rebuttal it's our view that before the traffic stop even began before the blue lights went on trooper slusser had reasonable suspicion to conduct that traffic stop as a terry stop to investigate and the reason is he is he had at least two credible experience drug investigator that the party brothers were involved in heroin trafficking out of that garage in graniteville vermont in addition he knew again before he initiated the traffic stop that a vehicle registered to robert  recently operated by francis putney was picking up a passenger who was arriving from a source city via a method of transportation used by drug couriers at a point of entry for drug couriers to vermont so we would  different part of the state they had a tip and i'm related tips but when they saw mr herman interacting with a known drug trafficker francis patni and getting into that car they developed a new suspicion that he was a different drug or and we believed and again there was substantial intelligence to support to support the suspicion of mr putney sergeant gardner detailed a very rioting of sources he had  to believe that france's partner was an engaged in heroin trafficking and when they when they saw him pick up gregory herman they developed a new suspicion that mr herman was a different drug or certainly if even if the court doubts that there was reasonable suspicion before the traffic stop to conduct it as a terry stop to confirm or dispel suspicion of drug trafficking as the stop unfolded we would submit that t rooper slusser develop more facts that gave rise to suspicion and i think the high points to suspicion to justify briefly prolonging the stop and again this was a if you if you do view it as a prolonging of the stop which we're urging you not to but if you do it's only a three minute delay between the issuance of the warning and the deployment of the drug drug dog in the positive hit on the vehicle but their worship suspicious circumstances th i guess trooper schlosser's testimony that was it was compared to his thousands of other stops it was a long time to him compared to the the other stops he's conducted clearly your honor doesn't think that that's that's a te has a long way i hate to even know that the police officer behind you is necessarily going after you i guess i struck me as a long time your honor but perhaps you know my view doesn't matter i suppose  does matter i think the chief judge assigned some significance to the fact at a minimum we've heard you to find that it wasn't clear error for her to assign some significance to the fact i think the excessive nervousness i think everybody is a  bit nervous during a traffic stop but i think trooper saucers testimony was that that was the nervousness was quite uncommon for somebody who had just been stopped for speed and again i think judge rice assigned some significance to that fact given that it's uncon suspicions he made a point of not mentioning the bus stop when he was asked where he was coming from and when he was asked i think most importantly where he was taking mr herman he said somewhere in berry but he didn't know where and he said mr herman was going to walk from there to another location but he didn't know where to visit with family members whose identity he didn't know and who all of whom couldn't drive apparently and so he makes do with showing a traffic morning i n your adversary says that that those questions were in a sense part of the n l sassoon determining whether there was aids and prostitution all away i think i think as an initial matter they were  all i don't think that this case is just a traffic stop speeding case i think they had reasonable suspicion to conduct a drug investigation but if you if we do view it as initially only justified as a speeding stop i think his initial initial  suspicious signs at the outset of the traffic stop justified expanding the scope and duration of the questioning to some degree to assess those initial signs of suspicion so it i think that's correct after after he pulled out of the bus stop given all the intel they had intelligence they had about his involvement in our cottage trafficking and giving this given the circumstances of mr herman's arrival certainly if the attached the reason that they even focused on mr herman at all is because of mr putney and the wealth of information they had about him trafficking narcotics out of the family garage  in the graniteville area if he hadn't if mr putney had not been present in the parking lot there would have been no suspicion i agree to to attach to mr herman but it's because he involved himself with a known drug dealer that i the book that the suspicion in the focus went to mr putney and his vehicle of which mr herman made himself a passenger but we also think that as the as the stop unfolded the suspicion burgeoned basically at argument you could have been stopped anywhere but we of course without are accepting it that is your that is you i believe there was i believe there was given given that it's of course substantially lower standard than probable cause  reasonable suspicion standard and we do we do submit that there was enough evidence to reach that reasonable suspicion quantum given france's putney's involvement his his being one of the motor stop i think i think that that and i do want to point out too to the extent that the court views this as an extension of what began what was only justified at the beginning as a speeding stop theory is he could have been stopped even if he was not speeding i thought that was correct correct but in the alternative if the court does not accept that argument i think it an extension of the speeding stop the stop for speeding extension to to investigate potential drug trafficking was justified by the nervousness and sort of the nervousness mr putney shown and also by what we view as vague and sort of nonsensical statements he made about where he was going in his inability to provide an explanation while being able to talk with specificity about subjects that seem to feel safe to him such as you know the alas canine unit and the towing work he did for the state police so i think that the circumstance the circumstances that the trooper observed as the stop unfolded certainly if one is only viewing this as justified as a speeding stop gave him a basis to expand the scope and duration for a brief time to deploy the canine unlike in rodriguez but there was a reference earlier prone to the dubious that drew the state police's attention coming via the bus lines the testimony about the quantity of drugs seized from bus lines in two thousand and fifteen was just for the state police it didn't include federal agencies and other agencies local agencies that might have been involved in seizing drugs from the bus lines so yes i think in the record at the hearing and in her findings the district court findings she attach some significance to the fact that mr herman arrived on a bus line which was a way that people had been bringing had we had seen patterns about people bringing drugs to vermont bus lines including the greyhound thank you thank you be like new york city so i think factually is distinguishable in that there's a very small amount of drugs seized over the course of a year for not just buses but all forms of public transportation in vermont i think i think that the buses there you know the police had specific information about a specific bus that they repeatedly found people on carrying drugs that that's just not the case here and the amount of drugs over all forms of public transportation in vermont indicate that that's distinguishable in from on you know it's just the source of the factors is really of a throwaway factor because vermont's one of the smallest season or states in the country any form of public transportation arriving in vermont is going to arrive from a larger city understand if misnomer since harrison in two thousand and ten and two thousand and fifteen buses these bus stations would be used as a and there was actual intelligence available to the state troopers that these bus stations would be used as a major depot for traffic i don't think that that's all these records my arm i don't know i don't think the record supports that the you know we're talking about ten thousand to fifteen fourteen or fifteen thousand bags of heroin mr herman was arrested with twelve hundred so we're talking about ten maybe eleven arrests over the course of a year over all forms of truck public transportation in vermont that's a trickle all it tells us is that the vast vast majority of people are isn't tenable reasonable suspicion again asks for some articulable particular allies to information that there's illegal activity ongoing at that point there has to be places church the beach with his kids we know where someone can go without being pulled over and we think in this case simply picking up an unknown person doesn't add that to the reasonable