good afternoon this is the hearing in united states of america versus arena morgoth's again that circuit docket number eighteen one zero four four eight and this hearing is addressing the request  ms moore guy ski to represent herself in this appeal and i also have pending a motion by her current counsel karen landau to to be relieved so i intend to focus on the question of self representation in the hearing and i think that the question of the motion to be relieved by ms look when i was tied into that doesn't necessarily have to be decided similarly but i'm not going to spend time addressing that motion i just really want to focus on the software presentation matter so we don't have a court reporter here that's no longer occurring in our court but we are recording the proceedings so in the event that there's any need for a record of it the recording of this proceeding will be available on the docket all right although this is a lovely venerable court room and it's small and intimate the acoustics are surprisingly poor so it's necessary when when i have right i don't think that anything that would occur in the hearing would add to what i have seen in the written material so i don't intend to ask any questions about that i think i have everything i need to make that determination all right thank you you would you would you step through lord so we can all right i don't intend to ask any questions about the relationship attorney client relationship so given that i see no need to exclude the government and i would be interested in any position that the government might have on the question of supper presentation because it will affect the government as well as the court and you are right could you have any physical or mental impairments that could affect your ability to participate fully and knowingly in the proceedings today are you able or you under the influence of any drugs or alcohol  are you able to hear me and to respond freely all right in response to your request to represent yourself in this appeal the court has authorized me to conduct this hearing to make sure that you understand the dangers and appeal and to make sure that your request is knowing intelligent and only quote vocal you understand you have the right to counsel on this appeal if you cannot afford to retain counsel you are entitled to have counsel appointed to represent you are government expense the court also has discretion to allow you to represent yourself if your request is knowing intelligent and unequivocal and is not intended to delay the proceedings on appeal in determining whether the court should exercise its discretion to allow you to represent yourself i'm going to first inform you of the dangers and disadvantages of self representation second inquire whether the issues on appeal are so complex that the assistance of counsel would aid the court in deciding the case and third inquire whether granting suffer presentation could unduly burden the court or undermine the integrity of the outcome you understand all that you also may withdraw your request to represent yourself and in that event you may continue with present counsel or i am authorized to appoint new counsel to represent you on appeal the court of appeals does not however allow for advisory or stand by counsel so you can't represent yourself and simultaneously have counsel appointed to represent you ability to adequately present the issues on appeal and articulate them in writing it would be helpful for me to get a sense of your background so i like to kind of briefly review your education your work history and any experience that you might have had in doing the kind of analytical legal writing that is required in order to perfect an appeal  so let me begin by asking you about your education and have my state it's been a long time ago but it i do have my sister's degree in engineering from the country where i was born from ukraine i work for almost seven years for bethel corp i started as a designer and then been promoted to engineering position thousand and three to the year when the business was closed i do not have experience or education in do have opening british legal brief ready to be filed so at this stage i feel that they can represent myself because they do have both motion for bail in brief which is i'm completely satisfied with so how did that brief get drafted it's been a collective effort mcguffey i'm now going to start with what i said i was going to do which is to tell you about the dangers and disadvantages of suffer presentation on appeal and i'm going to do this to make sure that your waiver of the right to counsel is knowing intelligent and unequivocal in order for it to be intelligent i want to make sure you understand what would be required of you in the appeal and i'm going to ask kelso for the government and i misled out in this far too since she's here to listen as i go through this colloquy and if you have anything else that you would like to add would be ski to know about the dangers and disadvantages of an appeal we are going to call on you to do that at the end all right you know you may know some of this or may not i just want to make sure that there's a record that you have heard it all and they understand all of what's expected of you so let me begin by pointing out to you th an appeal is different from a trial the proceedings occur mainly through written submissions called briefs the proceedings those briefs must comply with specific court rules and if you represent yourself you will be expected to comply with those rules and your appeal could be dismissed if you do not comply you understand on appeal you must obtain review the transcript of the trial proceedings the court of appeals reviews only what already occurred on the record and will not consider new evidence identifying appropriate issues requires legal knowledge and sophisticated analytic ability if you fail to identify a legal issue you may be barred from ever raising the issue again you understand you are also required to support any assertion of error with legal authority that means you must be able to research and understand the provisions of the constitution the relevant federal statutes and rules and cases from the relevant courts that have discussed the that area of the law this task requires familiarity with legal research techniques you understand that there are also strategic determinations that come into play in any appeal for example you might identify a large number of issues but only one of which strong and the other's weak it takes judgment and experience to know how many issues you should raise if you raise too many you may undermine the strength of your strongest issue by hiding it among a number of weaker issues you understand it often is difficult just to understand the analytic components of the issues on appeal even even if that task is mastered it is extremely difficult to convey that understanding persuasively in writing to judges who have only limited time to read and study the briefs lawyers like ms landau spend years developing and perfecting those skills but if you represent yourself you will have to accomplish the same thing without that extensive training and experience there also are additional difficulties you made character and representing yourself  you may or may not have assistance in the facility where you reside and if you are working with others either inside or outside the facility there is no guarantee that you will continue to have that assistance available to you in the absence of a formal  corner relationship friday it will be more difficult for you to communicate with the court by telephone or email than it would be for a lawyer to do so you understand those users in addition to the written submissions of the court allows oral argument of ten to twenty minutes per side in in some cases not all this is an opportunity for the parties to ensure that the judges understand the arguments it is also an opportunity for the judges to pacific questions about the proper disposition of the appeal where a criminal defendant is represented by counsel the court often allows oral argument where a criminal defendant represents herself the court if you are represented by counsel counsel will prepare a brief if counsel evaluate your case and concludes that there are no guard frivolous issues counsel will file a motion and a brief to that effect in which that you will be allowed to file a brief articulating issues that he think are available even if counsel hasn't but that would be the only time where you would be allowed to file a brief if you have counsel unless counsel files  ability to withstand a is there are you are are is your current medical condition such that there's any impediment to you making  feel better because before i was not my chin in this case it was relied on the on my torn you start actively participate in my defense i feel more empowered i feel much better i sleep let's support now let me address the second point that was raised by the government and that is the question of influence by other people are you know have you as other people council do you know about the question of self representation or urge you to proceed in that matter was mutual decision between me and my husband basically it was my decision i was very very unhappy with my story my latest  and one more thing which i didn't even put into this introductory statement in person it's very personal reason but nevertheless it's super important for me my husband nine years his heart condition and he's also written as a medical problem i don't know if we ever will be able to be together at this time when i post court will be decided in our  moving back to where we were misled now do you have any anything you would like to add to my colloquy about dangers and disadvantages of suffer presentation s so i'm sure that some of my ideas made it into her brief as well but it it's not we hadn't gotten to the stage yet where we were going to talk about jointly the legal issues on the opening brief so if she were to represent herself we would of course endeavor to have conference calls whether it be with the b o p or not because i do think a lot of these issues are crossover issues between the two parties so of course the honor of the joint defense agreement in the appellate stage in terms of the sharing of ideas but being very careful we can't wri her nor have i drafted anything for her it would be totally inappropriate for us to have done so and that did not happen so it's really a flow of ideas more than it's a draft or anything scripted that we did not i don't know why not as to maybe the count nine issues where there's constitutional challenges but mr markov's he's in a different position having signed a plea agreement than mr  so there are some separate issues with their suspect that that the government will raise for her that will not be part of mr makovsky case but the meat of it which is the constitutionality of count nine sure that that could that could happen but i i don't want to prejudice miss norcross i don't want to stand here today and make promises about a joint brief because that may not be what she wants she may want to have her own crack at the apple there may be issues that she wants to raise that we don't hurt you know just to throw some things out there you know she may think non delegations important we don't so i don't want to say yes without consulting with her or her attorney because it wouldn't be proper for me to to do that so i guess the roundabout answer is we certainly be open to that but i don't want to say that that's what she would want  much i think i have a sense of your position written is mcguffey i think i have a sense of the scope of the appeal in the complexity of the issues in preparing the briefing in this case you know it's going to be up to you to do that do you feel capable and competent to draft a brief even if you end up being incarcerated pending appeal so i'm going to draft a report and recommendation to the court addressing the sufferer presentation request will be served and everybody in the case and then they report a recommendation along with any comment that you may have will be submitted to a panel of judges and they will make a decision whether to grant the request or deny the request or schedule for the proceedings to address any other issues they may have before we conclude the proceedings today there any other procedural matters that are lurking in these appeals that need immediate attention anything about transfer production or anything like that right i think it probably will be the consolidation probably will occur it's customary for cases arising out of the same truck or proceed to be consolidated that there will be addressed by a separate order here in the expedited fashion this hearing was scheduled quickly that's because we want to get things moving so i will go ahead and draft that report a recommendation and get it out to you as quickly as possible and then we will take it from there all right so this matter is submitted pending the report and recommendation thank you