i am jack webb representing mr walter bradshaw this court is where no doubt we are here challenging the terminations of a pilot examiner certification that is issued by goes to the issue issue exhaustion issue i assume where your honour's is before we get there i want to get your answer to that and i appreciate your answer my next question did you not or did counsel i am not sure you were the one concede one hundred court the counsel below is very well versed and operating airplanes and technical matters however i would not i would question whether or not counsel below was less expert or up to speed on the vagaries of ministry of law and he would do you would question that because you know him and his lack of experience just inferring that since the disagree with you on this issue we must not know what he's talking about no i just don't think i don't think the issue of the the appropriateness of the of the of the internal f a a order was an ever an issue that was was was was was the terminations your honor is my understanding i think the f a a the f a a the record reflects the fact that the terminations was pursuant to that order and the appeals peals flow from that order your honor and your honor if i may with respect to the issue exhaustion at the administrative level the government relies upon a couple of cases but basically the case  again there has to be a procedure below for purposes of issue exhaustion that sample sensually mimics the adversarial litigation proceeding and i or liberty interest no your honor actually that's a great question because prior cases that been decided by the circuit courts in these types of situations well i think well let me back up your answer the question this way at the protect the protected liberty interest or protected property rights ensure this implicates constitutional consideration which gets that gets the petitioner under the jurisdiction of review of the court and it opens up the court's jurisdiction it can because ordinarily agency deference would preclude review of the final order however to the extent the constitutional issue is raised then again the court can review it now the courts have been very very reluctant to recognize either a property interest or liberty interest the court properly said you know what case was it was just that the florida rights case the voting rights case jones case we look at the law through a different prism however when the law classifies a certain suspect ways prototypically on the basis of  race gender national origin or classifies in a way the months for fundamental skills meet burdens fundamental rights such classifications are subject to heightened scrutiny or more exacting former view we can see that mr bradshaw is not a member of a suspect class i mean i get that but the bottom line is that he again a fundamental right under the constitution the th th and has been implicated by virtue of the check my time here by virtue of the disparate treatment of thirty four seconds left by virtue of the disparate treatment afforded mister as compared to other designees such to the extent that a heightened level of apologise yeah you're on a rational basis we would if we were to argue just not apply in this case because the classification although it's not subject it's not turned towards a suspect class it still is still an accuser impinged upon a fundamental right good morning your honor some may have please the court just handle on behalf of responded federal aviation administration in the federal aviation act congress gave the f a a administrator discretion to get big name private person to an active pilot examiners on the half and empower the administrator to rescind the such designations quote at any time for any reason he considers appropriate unquote with broad grant statutory authority the agency has promulgated procedures for terminating designations  reviewing such determination decision that process is spelled out in f a a order eight thousand nine hundred dollars with that background in mind i'd like to briefly touch on three points this morning st eight thousand nine hundred point one encompass the appropriate determination is that true or not true that is correct in fact from a nation as good as either removal or or cease and assisting or or the decision not to renew correct i believe that's correct yes ok define for me what involved means if someone is involved what does that mean to you sure so i think the question is involved in a be involved in something right well your honor i think you could take that broader view of it and that's perfectly fine and i think even under that broader view even if it means just participation in some manner or to some degree has not show here i'm sorry i didn't mean to cut you off no no no that's that's fine and i think that definition is probably a fair one so let's fast forward to where you're going which is supplemental record a to hold off on the renewal but of course action must be taking depending upon the outcome of the investigation if the failure to renew or the decision not to renew is determination under the order and mr gill direction is to hold off on renewal isn't that involvement in the renewal decision i don't think so your honor because i think there is an important distinction between suspension of the renewal process that doesn't come to any equivalent to the specialist level above who are not involved in the original denial or terminations decision if because if the suspension of renewal how is the suspension of renewal not an involvement in the termination decision i understand that it's not the final decision but housing not involved in the determination decision if you're saying while this investigation is going on you were to hold up and stop and suspend the renewal and you were to time to look into the report the f a a had received and to determine whether any corrective action was warranted i don't think that that advice rested on any preliminary determination as to the merits of these allegations or as to the merits of any particular corrective action and i think the only thing here that actually qualifies as terminations as a terminations decision that triggers appellate rights under order you nine hundred dollars is a decision not yes that's correct and that's the ultimate that's determination decision when the regional officer or regional director has that letter and that's the thing that can be appealed right that is correct your honor ok so if part of that is a cease and desist and mr gill is against designated pilot examiner that is not equivalent to determination on the merits that certain factual findings have taken place and that as a result terminations is the appropriate  that's required involvement in factual findings just involvement in the night or decision right well the process here is there are factual findings by safety inspector and then it goes to the office director who makes the final merit or anything like that and then i think secondly is that mr bradshaw what he actually appealed was not the preliminary or interim suspension of his renewal process it was the later termination warranted to determine whether corrective action is necessary has anything to do with the later terminations decision that back mr bradshaw appeal have to answer any questions that your honour's have about the basis is the appropriate analytical framework here so the government is i certainly have the opinion that neither the due process nor equal protection claims of veils here and i'm happy to answer any other questions that the court may have not entitled to those procedures he received specific notice of the reasons for his terminations and an opportunity to contest those reasons in writing and through counsel before a three member panel that panel considered and rejected his arguments and there is no reason for this the letter and it says st paragraph informs your client that he is terminated pursuant to title fourteen of the code of federal regulations various parts and then the nd letter said the not your client in fact invited the arrow hard to the very least didn't object to it because in his appeal the attorney on behalf of your client said that he was following the appeal