it's being developed on a sixty nine acre portion of the tracks farm property phase one in phases two are complete the plan before you tonight is four phases three which is here approve a revision to the master plan they want to add one large lot here lot three fifteen which is four point nine acres in size when we proved their master plan originally back in zero seven the proof eighty one laws there density based on their acreage they could have up to eighty three in their way over on their minimum forty percent open space so with this revision by adding this lot three fifteen they're still over there forty percent like forty two almost forty two percent forty one point three five percent space will be owned in by the tortured feel homeowners association tracks form is still forming portions of it while the development is happening around stor density requirement in on them open space it's is there another location you know this is an orchard i think tracks still i think it's an apple orchard is there another area where this additional line could be created that would not so therefore i just don't know any logical reason why i should be denied you know another two a it is a fairly decent compromise if you can still develop on it that leaves much to leave some of that is open space and to your point i don't understand what your objection is quite candidly this is just me you still have t i mean you know i'm going to really have to work you know to make this deadline so that we get this road in or that is if if it doesn't interfere with the with the approval process  version or whatever that fraction is as a result of this reduction another condition that phase three construction drawings included three fifteen on the construction council group face three final playing and then also making a recommendation to the journey here in board in line the springdale wants to build a clubhouse in pool and that's what's triggered the change here hill road right here which used to be a lot three zero nine they've taken last a lot in lieu of that lot they want to build a clubhouse in which there's a pat they're adding the clubhouse and pool the way i think twelve parking spaces so people can drive there plus they're adding sidewalks in the rest of the plane in phase five phase fo special exception is required in this on the agenda for may twenty for the zoning hearing board the one club house because it's a private clubhouse not on someone's personal property requires a special exception approved by the zoning hearing staff recommending we do that subject to the six conditions list in my report to you dated april thir on my property about hamlet my first concern is that i think this is not according to an ordinance and i don't quite  it's just different zoning processes that approvals need to go through it's not against the  i'm not happy about it so i don't know whether people do on but to the left have any standing whatsoever or should be considered some road the property difficult see there we're having trouble with our camera here tonight requires all new laws to have front enjoin a public street were a private street that is improved township public road specifications just back you would like to keep the redrive the way that it is it is right here our portion of the public portion of it and in its gravel dirt from murray drive louisiana lane back to mr beck you property the purpose for this agenda item tonight is for we're planning commission to review this and make a recommendation to the council on whether or not the township should grant a geisha and to allow mr back e o t to split his obviously would like to come down redrive we use that almost every day for eating out sometimes we use the driveway and sometimes we round marie drive so what i'm trying to in forty five feet is in fifty feet like that calls for so we don't want that to be read and our fears someday it could escalate but as far as she told us she wants to build a house hi i'm susan early i live at one thirteen louisiana lane which my back my property of butts where the house in the front lot would be i just have a couple of questions where's the starts so there really is no frontage and i just you know you're setting a precedent for the township that that's technically isn't that a flag a lot that there's there really is no frontage that's just a question i have i don't have any problem with white house being back back there either i do have a concern about you know best laid plans and then what if down the road we're not going to build a house now we're going to subdivide what's the minimum lot in peters i just heard a quarter so now we're talking eight acres times you know quarter acre lot now we're talking sixteen homes everybody owns at least two cars anymore so now you've got thirty two cars are you familiar with marie are it's basically a one lane road and that's a real concern for me at living along that road and that's all i have to say if it's one home i'm ok with that but i do have a question about where's the frontage because i don't see it at all with it's what we're here for tonight you know not to the modification it's a modification of our subdivision regulations to let him create this lot with access to how will you address the fact that there would be no further subdivisions will that be in the deed of the property or is that something the sport is going to decide and then you know ten years down the road you know we're going to be back so i mean it could be could if even right now you can so it's the point of putting this on the plane and then it's right now that i believe there are questions only to not improve to public roads let him sub divide and all these near sixty years that i have lived here i believe the population was a little over four thousand people when we moved into their township we moved here because of the rural atmosphere this is what we had school i do not object to mr crowe choose request as far as a subdivision of his property to fight it he wants access back to that property that that to the property when he himself has access from sugar camp i agree with mr charles is far as that back area he's never had any support back there he and whoever owned property right across now is the point they are the ones who maintain that land back there not the gunman who requested permission to stop his property and that he wants to go back and use that road for access to if you want to do this let him have access back to the one property on sugar camp road my i think we've just had the issue flag a lot tension we raised and as i recall if we were to require the applicant to gain access from sugar camp there would have to be what a fifty foot right of way all the way back to you century looking it six hundred feet of driveway to get back there to me for a single house that just seems to be there's a scene in the west method to resolve the matter is that as i said earlier i think this is a unique situation i think that we have a situation where the applicant is used the means of access that he wants to use and i would recommend that we approve it or  condition that subdivision plan would include a notation that the newly created rear lot not be further subdivided and also included for the condition that the recorded plan includ we have previously recommended fencing along there with some type of our it'll minimize there'll be a minimal reduction in parking spaces at this point what we're looking at because i did do some minor consideration no one fifteen in the city in a few minutes take care of mr manses issues with the facade as well i don't know her twenty one b that this is a car dealership one of the worst things you want to do is hide the product what we've done with our landscaping plan is we've over clustered trees along the sides of the property to compensate for the front  tree we currently have on our plan a total of ninety one trees that would include the spruce as well which are in the back but as far as the mature trees we're looking at five  talk with mr zucker about this provision the applicant apparently went to the zoning board already and asked for a variance in the zoning board i think the same position we're all in and said wait a minute you can only do that if you show it's not feasible you haven't shown it and i think the problem here is it's being applied in a way that it doesn't make any sense and if you apply it in a way that's going to require us to dedicate some kind of an easement it's a take the property to the north of us doesn't have any access to bottles or has complied with section the ordinance they've developed the joint access easement to that traffic signal with the property in the south totally in compliance with the two whenever it's feasible to have a joint access agreement property the north we don't know what it's going to be this provision should be applied to that property owner when he comes in and mr thomas comes in you get to say hey how do you get to the light go talk to her and we'll talk to him that but to grant him an cross our property it is way beyond the pale of and it was only ordinance or subdivision land development so it can't be can't be applied now if it's been applied previously and that's you're able to get people to grant grant those easements upfront to get the approvals that's fine me give me a legal guarantee that nobody would come in and not read your language is somehow imposing some obligation for you to grant access it's like well you can't say that any language and i send it some language offer and i said i can't i can't guarantee that i don't think  guys up here would be able to do that either and they said well we'll we'll be willing to consider that but if you think about it what's would have to happen if they wanted to come in and create two way access through through our lot where you have people that are looking at cars and not in traffic you have to do something drastically different you know you might be able to create a model but you then have to do is walk property you create something on this one and that's what that's all mr thomas would have to do  bought a piece of property doesn't have any access to that traffic signal and he's not entitled through ordinance or otherwise to increase the value of his property one of the problems that we have with mr thomas is my client has made an offer to try to resolve the situation but they've decided to sit back thinking that that property will have access and they won't just the dilemma that we have is i have a client that won't agree to any flexible language indicating that he might have to grant that  access when mr thomas comes in to develop because that could have a terrific impairment on their business obviously with people you want people to walk around that lot and we understand why the zoning board said it's not feasible don't ever do it because when he comes in to do it it's possible i mean you could create a configuration where if you had enough sight to the north for that there'd be some some possibility of creating a two way but with what we see now and creating a two way absolutely makes no sense impose any condition i think is a misapplication of this provision or has complied with that they have their period for him to the south they develop the joint access agreement to do exactly with the ordinance says when mr thomas comes and he's going to have to do the same thing and talk about so we agree with the zoning board that they weren't in a position we didn't need a variance and they were in a position to say it will never be feasible but without knowing what's there and without there being some joint development where there's an exchange of interests just you just  centrally have a condition that when my client is said we'll make it not not feasible to develop the site they've just told me point blank if they can't get this done and they can't they're under a time constraint catlike they can't get this done now this project won't happen and that would be not only unfortunate from her but most communities i know my own community i would mind to have a caterpillar like dealership that used to be reminds me we can be in stores were in here for the market district these to be a negative they have a gas station these are now amenities you can see the architecture of the landscaping so we think however you want to cast it however you want to characterize that we are trying to get some flexible language but comfortable enough and to to give any comfort whenever you know in the car lot that there's not a scenario within the confines of this the current corners of this property there is no if it's this it's our position that this is the only way that it will get done to give leverage and to create an access easement is going to place a value on that to effectively do a take we totally agree totally agree with that there would be great if there's more sites but the way to accomplish that would be to not create a condition that will effectively provide that and to sort of go beyond that i don't mean i absolutely agree that the site should be expanded but i don't think no matter how much expand the site the nineteen he left that lapse so so now we're in a scenario where he allowed his age will be to lapse now we're being looked upon to provide access for him so we're in another situation where right well though in my bigger concern is we have no idea of mr thomas intends to do with the property that's really the problem we had a plan in front of us that's one thing that he could sell the property someone who comes in a year from now and says we want to go to strip mall and no we've given but i would question that if this were not the use of a car dealership would we be imposing the same strict i guess but point would be if there was some other use restaurant or a strip mall or something to  strip mall it will be feasible because it's a car and you're sure it's not feasible i think probably council when they when they drafted the ordinance took into consideration the fact that the use of a particular property would impact whether or was quite high not really seen limits of it on your surveys or any way yet screening more elegant so that it's not buffering the back wall that buffering the residential homes up on kind of the river there if you will the the slope i think number one would know that we would not be objectionable to would i don't believe the steepness of the slope to be able to access that property we would have to do it through from i guess depending god you know just for final plans to yes we would have them here along the zoning exhibits and i don't have it in this package i took it out whenever we got that taken care of i had a trash collected right there in that you know amplifier all the rock and just trying to get some any additional screening or or sound like you know we're looking at about a forty foot to fifty ford increase in all vision from our property to the top of their backyards right so then their house so it's further beyond that so in essence although we're talking about trying to screen something really from also enclosed and all the other pumps in general generating equipment will be housed inside the buildings there will not be chlorine gas for disinfecting the waste water will be  similar to the chlorine bleach as discussed and then all the facilities are located at least a foot above the one one hundred year flood plain all the treatment tanks buildings the  parking spaces and the critical equipment just a couple comments to the conditions actually age i just want to ready about the mechanical equipment and you noted that we would have to me you know and so what height do they have to build this thing to take care of the flood situation is going to be way above the height of  deliberations higher you know going to take care of the fact that there was a flood like that yes the regulations require sewage facilities to be at a certain elevation function during certain flooding events this is now higher in my house house by sewage than you get in portion of force one gardens the rear portion we're just here to get your initial feedback on what we're proposing and see if there's any concerns so we get into it for so long garden located along route nineteen  we mr corbett has been in conversations with forest lawn to purchase a portion of the property the rear right now we're looking at roughly twenty four acres there are no agreements just some kind of face to face conversations with forest lawn to see how much they'd be willing to sell so looking at a potentially twenty four acres in the rear that is outlined here in re so there's where the site is this site now is it exist half of it is open meadows and the other half is vegetated woods there is an existing stream that runs through the property here highlighted in blue so what we're proposing to do on the twenty four acres construct twenty nine lots it meets the one point two density we with twenty nine lots would be required to give away two point zero three acres of open space the so where we're going to access the site is from spring c spring street spring street currently is a dead end and it ends at the cemetery we would access through that and as soon as you enter the site we were becoming downgraded to a large two hundred foot radius turn around on the right at the entrance on the left side it would be our first open space coming down the road you would see the fifty foot step back lots coming into the two hundred foot radius turnaround there are two additional open spaces down at the bottom of this this is the low point and then it goes uphill this way this way and with the open space what we're trying to achieve first is to create somewhat of a buffer between spring street and the new proposed development as you come down in we're going to use the open space to help preserve the sense of natural feature being the creek so that creek will be within open space here it will run down through the rear lots of these proposed homes so as you come up through the turnaround into a column a sack we would be proposing additional lots up there that would be thirty five foot setbacks the reason we're proposing thirty five foot setbacks is to try and reduce the amount of impact that we're going to have on this stream if we're able to fit fifty foot setbacks on the side if we were to develop a fifty foot setbacks on this portion of the property we would be well into that stream so we're trying to mitigate the amount of disturbance in that stream area there is we have looked at potentially doing thirty five foot setbacks here as well  would be grading up to the property line there are some existing trees that run that property line that if we were able to reduce the set backs we could try and preserve those trees so we can maintain a buffer between the existing lots and so that's a quick run through there are some big items that we're here obviously to get your feet back on the first being we want to talk about interpretation of cul de sac and what length we are permitted to construct here in meetings with township staff when you enter spring street seven hundred feet length coming into our property from the end of spring street to the hundred foot radius is twelve hundred feet and then there's an additional seven hundred feet to the caller's out at the idea through meetings with township staff was because this property is pretty much landlocked there's no other spaces that we can connect to to prevent a dead end of callers that are a cul de sac development we are proposing this two hundred foot radius turn around and then we would classify this portion as a cul de sac which would meet the requirements of the ordinance so that's the first issue that's the biggest issue right now the second is the connection to spring street we need to make sure that the right away does extend all the way up to the cemetery line to make sure there isn't maybe a small ten foot strip there that maybe existing property owner has that would prevent us from going through or we'd have to negotiate with them to get access through that fortunately and the third point be in the thirty five foot setbacks obviously this is own or one day and that means fifty foot setbacks so we're trying to obtain the thirty five foot setbacks as the ordinance says the crowd here for doing that is to preserve sensitive natural features which is what we're trying to attempt with a creek that runs through the stream that runs through the back and then the additional comment is the stream buffer we do have a to even though this stream will be running through the rear of these lots we would be putting a twenty foot stream for  setbacks we want to get your feet back and see your thoughts on those items before we get too into further conversations with force one and proceed forward with actual construction talking and so initially i think my concern would be even with the loop that you're putting in there is he still essentially have almost seven hundred foot dead end with no other way in and out of and i mean that really to me is just a major concern for because it's a neighborhood i live in or a neighbor of live in for the next couple months neighborhood i grew up in so i'm very familiar played in that cemetery in kind of spring street very well so spring street as we know is no other way out on concern is to the traffic impact and not only from a traffic standpoint but also from a safety standpoint i know in reality you can't have a road in the cemetery because it's private property but you can't have road i mean you can't have a road you can't yes yes yes yes yes gotcha i don't know that i'm certainly not opposed to developing it i'm speaking personally but i mean my concern is something from this far as the length of the second we could get something from the police department for that so there were on board with it alternately it's there is generally the ones that want the inner connections and want the multiple starting to talk to talk to force one about there's the potential for an access easement strictly for the fire department that in case something were to happen here that would block emergency services to anywhere in this part of the development of the far department would be able to come through the senate area in the connection would be at this point and that temporary easement would run through the lot into this turnaround so that they would have it's very similar to this i would even venture to say it's almost identical to this is mccomas road it comes up sutherland drive if you measure from cell and drive and the name of th street i'm sorry fox free fox creek if you measure from the intersection to the center of this begin turn around it's fifteen hundred feet that radiates the diameter of this is two hundred feet it's the same as what we're proposing and then to the end of this call the sack is twenty six hundred feet or so on our property from the intersection of spring street in pleasant avenue to the and  feet the students here have been told there's only one student here so they don't come up in to this there is a school bus stop here when i question there was no definite answer if there were more students here would there are similar situations where the students would have to walk to meet the school bought the bus stop there's actually one with this is the end of the school bus stops here that's a three thousand foot there are burials here which david adjacent here i didn't mention there would be a storm water tension solti that would take care of the house here there would be a storm water tension facility here it would take care of this so you're not planning to use the cemetery on that it would be on our side it would be on a yes there is existing sanitary line that runs down through the center of the property which would be tapping into to proposing here would lead to low speed curves i would argue that that's a pretty good yeah pretty good traffic calming device and then additionally go not bad sloping up we're still called sac that and we would might be areas in the back that we can work with the grading to preserve so that we keep it somewhat for between these existing homes as well but this is a large a large facility self it will impact those trees will try and minimise as and i asked why you have what do you have open space between what heat and light nine is it seems to me that that that open space between lani nine is in this part of the field it would seem to me that if you just made the open space  with possibly doing a walk consolidation reason to do that was we be able to satisfy all the requirements in the environment also i that's one of our opportunities said where we're at we're surrounded by commercial properties we don't actually touch in the residential you have to see to