yes thank you mr chairman and thank you for holding a second hearing this is very important that our country needs to face yesterday i discussed how i thought this bill will set up road blocks on  pass to energy development instead of opening up additional areas for drilling in my view this bill raises fees expands government bureaucracy rolls out more red tape and delays greater when solar oil and natural gas production i'd like to today explain how these roadblocks would affect everyday americans first these roadblocks will slow america's oil natural gas wind and solar energy production and ultimately make in my view energy more expensive while the average price of gas gasoline is about two dollars and fifty five cents a gallon right now this unfortunately will always be the case before we know it the american people will be forced to pay more at the pump again and that's when they will reach for their wallets still ask why didn't the administration and congress take action to actually increase all types of energy production and americans won't like the answer because we take action because unless we take action on all of the above energy plan the administration and democrats in congress will have to explain that they were focused on legislation that will actually make it harder and more expensive to produce american energy second to roadblocks in this bill will increase our reliance on foreign sources of energy from countries that i don't believe live up to americans high in vera the america's high environmental standards saudi arabia cuba russia venezuela and other nations are increasing their energy supply at a breakneck pace but america is at a standstill this committee is considering legislation that will make our nation less energy independent and less secure as american chemistry council recently wrote and i quote the bill fails to contribute in any way to the energy security of the united states and quote and finally these roadblocks threaten current energy jobs and prevention prevent the creation new american energy jobs at a time when almost ten percent of americans are unemployed just last week a pricewaterhouse study confirmed that oil and gas industries contribute over nine million full time and part time jobs accounting for over five percent of our nation's total employment when nearly fifteen million americans are out of work the last thing our country needs is for congress to pass a bill that will eliminate even more jobs in our country instead we should be focusing on paying even more americans to take advantage of the high paying jobs in all parts of our energy sector but unfortunately the democrat leaders in congress are focused on passing a net national energy tax bill and a road block to energy bill that only make our current economic problems worse so i continue to urge my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to choose a better path forward by supporting an all of the above energy plan that will help americans by creating a new high paying jobs in protecting our environment and more importantly providing affordable energy and with that mr chairman i do your back my time with any other members wish  not will proceed with a panel the first panel is composed of the honorable stephen b smith mayor of pinedale wyoming ron executive director project on government oversight mr christopher amanda senior they range rancher a senior loan officer rocky mountain front advisory committee lady and gentleman we welcome you to our committee today appreciate your being with us we do have copies of all your prepared testimonies a will be made chairman members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today my name is stephen smith and i serve as the mayor of pinedale a small town of about six hundred people in the upper green river valley in western wyoming pinedale is a county seat of sublet county population around seven thousand five hundred and nearly half of the counties residents live within five miles of our town in a county larger than the state of connecticut eighty percent of our lands are federally managed we are also home to one of the largest natural gas fields in the united states i come before you not as an expert on energy policy or an advocate for or against the energy industry i am here to speak to the concerns and challenges that we as a community have experienced over the past few years and to share my opinions on this proposed legislation natural gas exploration and production sublette county has changed the dynamics of our community over the past two years we are traditionally a community rooted in agriculture and in tourism the natural gas fields around pinedale are not a recent discovery and were known to hold great reserves but only a few years ago did technology become available to successfully extract this resource and pinedale changed overnight the development of the gas fields has been of significant economic benefit to our community it has also brought challenges one of our greatest concerns in light of energy development has been the socio economic impacts of a rapidly increased relation these include the need for local governments to provide new and updated infrastructure build new medical clinics support child care facilities as well as addressing increases in crime traffic and calls for emergency services even more than important than socioeconomic issues are citizens concerns over real and potential health hazards over the past three years we have had numerous ozone alerts in our county the first ever with ozone levels exceeding maximums established by the u s environmental protection agency air quality in the valley and especially in the class one air shed of the bridge or wilderness is declining and needs to be addressed local citizens have rallied around these issues and have taken their concerns to both state and federal agencies the wyoming department of environmental quality has been active in monitoring air quality and ozone and although as their efforts are ongoing we see no relief for the situation similar concerns have been raised over water quality and the potential of contaminated wells from chemicals used in the drilling process because of the large amount of federal ownership in suffolk county house resolution thirty five thirty four would certainly affect the future of development in our area there are certain portions of this proposed legislation on which i would like to comment the first being title three section three zero six best management practices in my opinion the use of best available technology should be required for all energy development on federal lands industry in our area is currently moving in that direction using some natural gas burning engines for drilling and introducing a liquid gathering system on the pinedale anak line these are two examples of voluntary and proactive steps taken by some operators and we are hopeful that this trend might continue requiring these practices ensures the most current technology continues to be implemented and used in both exploration and development secondly h r thirty five thirty four addresses the elimination of categorical exclusions from october two thousand and six through may of two thousand nine hundred one thousand five hundred applications to drill were approved with the use of these categorical exclusions out of the pinedale b l m field office alone use of this magnitude circumvents proper analysis of large scale development and goes against the intentions of the book this led legislation does not however address the issue of social and economic concerns their identification and mitigation the town in the county have had extensive conversations with the b l m the governor's office and our congressional delegation on this subject in hopes of alleviating some of the impacts our community has endured in the future socio economic matters should be considered unmitigated at all stages of planning and development in the same manner as physical and environmental impact using i understand the need for energy development and its economic benefit not only to the t pinedale but to our nation as a whole on the other hand i also understand the social and economic impact it has had on the citizens of my community and surrounding areas i therefore thank you for taking the time to hear the concerns of a small community and possibly addressing them in ron since one nine hundred ninety five pogo has issued five reports about the underpayment of royalties to the federal government by major oil and gas companies most recently we issued a report tracing the troubled history of the royalty in kind program and recommending the about abolition of it pogo applauds the committee for your oversight of royalty collections and for writing the clear act of two thousand and nine this legislation will benefit taxpayers by implementing several key reforms that will help ensure taxpayers are receiving their fair share from their natural resources as this committee is well aware and the masses are i k program has been a failure on many fronts the g a o has found nearly annually most recently this week that m m s could not accurately account for our program cost and benefits post strongly supports interior secretary salazar as announcement yesterday before this committee to end the program however our concern is that the language in this bill is not adequately clear that the r i k program is to be eliminated the language currently reads the secretary shall not conduct a regular program to take oil and gas lease royalties in oil or gas given that the existing ari care program quietly grew out of an  pilot program i believe this language does not fully put a stake in the heart of our i k and without such language is likely to rise again from the ashes in future administrations as outlined in our most recent report the royalty management system is just broken there are three basic and significant structural weaknesses to the m m s is royalty management program the first is organizational and conflict the sole mission of a federal royalty management a collection program should be determining and enforcing revenue obligations of private companies operating on public and indian land yet currently auditors and other compliance and enforcement personnel report to officials within m m s whose responsibilities also include leasing and development and who may be more inclined to make the royalty management program look successful rather than be successful the second structural flaw is methodological m m s is preferences been to perform compliance reviews rather than audit compliance reviews are based entirely on self reported data provided by industry meaning no third party reporting is required third a recent g a o report revealed that the m m s computer system is incapable of identifying in a timely manner instances when industry failed to report revenue and royalty at all the clear act addresses all of these weaknesses first delegating the compliance and auditing functions to the id strengthens the independence of those functions however pogo is not sure if the i g in the long run is ultimately the right place for these functions to reside given the  statutory responsibility these and the need to maintain independence from the federal agencies and programs that oversees second the clear act strengthens royalty accountability by prohibiting compliance reviews from substituting for audit the committee's also important steps committee's also taking important steps to restore leasing offices accounting and auditing credibility finally posies potential and clear act proposed pilot program for automated transmission of oil and gas volume in quality data the committee might also consider incorporating language from h r four hundred sixty two to provide for a national academy of sciences study to improve the accuracy of oil and gas lease data while pogo believes removing the core auditing functions from m m s will go a long way to improve the structural and ethical problems pass investigations reveal there are significant cultural problems at m m s that also need to be restored pogo is deeply troubled for example by the revolving door between the department and industry as has been recently evidence this morning by the news of an investigation of former interior secretary norton turn through the revolving door to the shell company fortunately there have already been several improvements to ethics policies in the department of interior since our last report and pogo is happy to see that the clear act also requires the secretary of interior to annually certify that all employees involved in royalty production oversight are in full compliance with all federal employee ethics laws and regulations just as adequate auditing is essential to revealing problems transparency is essential to getting those problems fixed but copies of contracts and other vital vital information is not currently publicly available pogos concern that there's not enough transparency about the influence of organizations outside of m m s that helped the agency to shape policy given the history of the program where industry had a disproportionate amount of influence were particularly concerned about the regional outer continental shelf councils created under clear we hope that the committee will make sure that their operations are transparent to the public and recommend that these c not be exempt from the federal advisory and lastly as a member of the publish what you pay coalition we hope that the committee will consider in the future increasing transparency of the us is royalty revenue collection in order to serve as a model to other countries and secretary clinton recently stated sustainable progress is not possible in countries where the profits from oil and minerals line the pockets of all the guards who are corporations a world away but do little to promote long term growth and prosperity the solution starts with transparency companies publishing what you pay and governments publishing what you earn is a necessary first step toward a more accountable system for the management of natural resource revenues the u s can hear lead by example thank you again for your oversight of royalty collections and for asking me to testify i look forward to answering any questions you may have thank you mr chairman ranking member hastings and members of the committee my name is christopher man and i serve as a senior officer of the pew environment  group the pew environment group is the conservation arm of the two charitable trusts is dedicated to advancing strong environmental policies guided by sound science on climate change willingness protection and marine conservation i appreciate the opportunity to share our views on r thirty five thirty four the consolidated land energy and aquatic resources act of two thousand and nine the pew environment group supports the clear act this legislation will assist the much needed transition to sustainable energy production improve accountability for energy development on public lands and in public water and protect the environment and coastal connally's to comprehensive planning for offshore energy development my testimony today will focus primarily on the provisions of the bill that relate to energy development on the o c s because the united states will continue to depend on fossil fuels for some time to come even as we begin the transition to renewable energy we are not opposed to offshore drilling in general however if offshore development is expanded it must be grounded in science and give priority to maintaining the health of ecosystem's both the pew oceans commission and the congressionally chartered u s commission on ocean policy recommended that single sector resource management give way to an integrated and comprehensive approach implemented at the regional level with no overarching framework for their management and no single entity responsible for their well being the oceans are bearing the cumulative effect of a growing list of ad hoc resource use decisions since the ocean commission's released their findings progress has been mixed a number of states are pursuing comprehensive ocean management in their waters if these efforts extend only three miles from shore and there's no comparable federal program farther offshore with the leadership of this committee congress has put fisheries management on a more sustainable course but sound fisheries management cannot by itself safeguard the health of marine ecosystems even as the environmental damage caused by our dependence on fossil fuels becomes apparent there is renewed interest in exploiting offshore oil and gas resources president obama took an important step when establishing an area task force in june to recommend a national ocean policy the broad outlines of that plan have already been transmitted to the president and we expect it will be made public as early as today the clear act contains a number of reforms to guide rational development of offshore energy while providing greater protection for marine living resources and ecological services we believe these reforms are complementary not contradictory to the administration's efforts the o c s councils established by the bill are not the fully integrated governance system recommended by the ocean commissions creating an offshore energy decision making process that requires fuller consideration of other uses and users of ocean resources is a substantial improvement over current practice we strongly support establishing a permanently appropriated dedicated fund for ocean and coastal management capitalized by o c s revenue there is a compelling logic in taking public revenue from the extraction of nonrenewable marine resources and investing it in ocean and coastal conservation this committee this committee lent bipartisan support to similar legislation and shepherded it through the house a number of years ago we also support section seven zero four of the bill which prohibits the department of commerce and regional fishery management counsels from permitting and managing offshore aqua culture under the magnusson steven act well we share no its goal of a national aqua culture policy we believe that offshore aquaculture should be managed under a national regulatory program designed for aqua culture not for capture fisheries moving for a moment to the land we strongly support removing raney m from the purview of the eight hundred seventy two mining law the sensible change will allow extraction of uranium from public lands were subject development is in the public interest and with the appropriate safeguards today uranium remains the only energy mineral still subject to the antiquated law that limits the ability of federal managers to determine how and where extraction takes place we do have a number of recommendations for improvement of the bill which are detailed in my written statement first make no a full partner in regional council management and in preparing ocean assessments second ensure that the secretary must promptly approve regional plans and impose reasonable restrictions on offshore development until regional plan is proved third do not provide voting membership on o c s councils to nonfederal stakeholders who may have an economic interest in the outcome lastly because of its unique for gelati and vulnerability for hit development of off shore energy in the arctic in telecom prehensile plan is approved for that region mr chairman we look forward to working with both congress and the administration to protect  maintain our store the health of our oceans through comprehensive ecosystem based management the clear act provides for rational and sustainable development of the energy resources of our public lands and oceans that is an important step forward i thank you again for the thank you mr chairman and members of the committee i appreciate the opportunity to appear before you this morning to talk about the clear act of two thousand and nine my name is mark school lachi i'm a professor of law and the director of the natural resources law center at the university of colorado law school over the course of my career which includes two stints at the department of the interior i worked on a range of natural resources issues and i've especially focused on the need to promote  policies for mining development on public lands while i generally support the goals of the proposed legislation i'm here today to talk about two particular provisions of the proposed register legislation that relate to mining on the public lands the first which appears at section three zero seven concerns coal mine methane the second provision which appears that section five eleven involves a proposal to remove uranium from the general mining law and place it under the mineral leasing act as just mentioned by mr mann i'd like to address each of these issues separately first up on the issue of coal mine methane underground mines are a major source of methane in the united states which we all know is a potent greenhouse gas this coal mine methane is also a serious hazard to underground mines and for that reason methane from such mines has historically been vented into the atmosphere in recent years however mining companies have begun to appreciate the economic value of capturing and selling this methane that was otherwise being vented this obviously has enormous environmental benefits as well and it allows the captured methane to be used as a fuel and it assures that the methane will be converted to carbon dioxide and other compounds with a much smaller greenhouse gas footprint unfortunately the current law governing federal coal leases effectively precludes this commonsense solution the coal mine methane that we're talking about is essentially embedded in the coal nonetheless the us supreme court has interpreted federal law in a way that requires the coal to be leased separately from the gas and when the government leases the coal they're reluctant of course to lease that gas to a separate party because of the conflicts that would likely create further complicating this matter the interior board of land appeals has recently held that methane gas is not even subject to leasing under the mineral leasing act because it's not a deposit of gas for purposes of that law in order to understand the problem here i'd like to just describe an example from colorado the west elk mine on national forest lands near somerset colorado has historically released between thirteen and seventeen million cubic feet of methane each day in terms of greenhouse gases it's about the equivalent of a three hundred megawatt coal fired power plant it's about three percent of total emissions in colorado of greenhouse gases gases and it's enough to heat nearly fifty thousand homes each year section three zero seven of the clear x all these problems by simply including embedded coal methane in the federal coal lease in exchange for granting the coal east of the rights to this resource the lessee would be obliged to recover the methane release during mining to the maximum extent possible moreover for deep mining operations where most of this recoverable methane exists the secretary would be required to analyze the feasibility of methane recovery before issuing the lease everyone wins under this proposal the coal s c receives the opportunity to capture and sell a valuable fuel resource the federal government receives new royalties from the sale of this gas and the public is assured of a significant reduction of greenhouse gas emissions for all these reasons i applaud the committee for including this provision in the legislation and i urge its passage let me turn briefly to the public lands uranium issue as well section five eleven of the clear act would convert uranium on consolidated deposit usually carried to their location by wind or water your radium deposits however do not easily fit into the either category and thus the courts of struggle with how best to characterize these deposits uranium also logically fits better under the leasing act because all the other energy minerals of fuels and fuel minerals coal oil and gas tar sands oil shale and geothermal resources are governed by the leasing program leasing also enables the government to better protect the public's fiscal and environmental rights or interests on the fiscal side section five eleven would end what now amounts to a subsidy of the domestic uranium industry as this committee well knows the general mining law allows publically owned minerals like uranium to be taken from our lands without a royalty or other payment to the treasury were over there is no strategic argument for subsidising domestic uranium production friendly countries such as australia and canada have abundant uranium resources that can often be developed far more cheaply than us uranium the environmental reasons for this proposal or even more compelling pastor ania milling and mining on our public lands have left a huge bill that the taxpayers will have to pay to clean up at a single large abandoned mill tailings pile on the banks of the colorado river near moab utah for example the department of energy is currently in the midst of a project that is likely to quote cost more than a billion dollars this is just one example of the fifty or a new mills on land for the united states twenty four have now been abandoned and they are all under the jurisdiction now the department of energy which will likely incur millions of dollars to clean up these sites finally congress should recognize that uranium mining poses special health and safety hazards that do not generally exist with other forms of mining the tragic legacy of uranium mining on the navajo indian reservation which  led to the premature death of many native workers is perhaps the most profound example of this reality a leasing system of course will not necessarily prevent future tragedies like this but it offers the promise for a more more proactive management both for siting future rainy and mining projects and for sharing suring that there are carried out in a safe and environmentally sound manner thank you for the opportunity to appear today before the committee i look forward to your questions good morning i'd like to think chairman right for the end of the taishan to testify this morning as i consider it a great privilege my testimony this morning is very specific to titles floor of the bill which deals with the full and permanent funding of the land and water conservation fund i am here representing the rocky mountain front advisory board to the nature conservancy on the power point you'll see the general project area that i'll be speaking of as well as a rolling slide show that will give you a glimpse of the landscape that i'm working on as a community banker and a third generation rancher from show to montana i have no particular qualifications to be here in front of you this morning other than my real life personal experience working with a collaborative conservation effort employing conservation easements with partial funding from land water and conservation funds testimony is meant to provide you with a grassroots example of the kind of project that can be implemented with a permanent funding as opposed in this bill the rocky mountain front project in my opinion is a real when win win scenario it's obviously a win for the conservation of the landscape as wearable to preserve the rich biodiversity of our plant animal species but just as importantly it's a win for my ranching customers as it gives them a financial tool that they would not have otherwise access to and finally it is also a win for my real community and all the communities in the area that depend on the landscape to provide for the economic stability and viability for their citizens the front model employer employs the use of a public private partnership that seeks to leverage federal funds for the biggest bang for the buck ten million acres includes glacier national park three wilderness areas and the associated border and for service properties to put this in perspective this is an area of land approximately the size of connecticut massachusetts and rhode island combined private land protected by conservation easements to date in the project there is one hundred thirty eight thousand acres in fact the largest u s fish and wildlife service easement in the lower forty eight was just closed that encompassed a ranch just over twelve thousand acres the front project is truly a community driven voluntary project with ranchers being the most important partners right now we have an m and tory of fifteen to sixteen ranchers representing one hundred twenty thousand acres that are waiting for easements to be funded our average cost for an easement is three hundred dollars per acre therefore it takes trap laid that out we have an unmet demand at the present time of thirty six million dollars and these are third  fourth generation ranchers are seeking to protect their ranch and maintain a habitat that they worked hard to create over the years as a taxpayer and a banker i much prefer a conservation easement model over a fee title acquisition mainly for the reason that the management and ongoing maintenance and or conservation easement is borne by the land owner and it also keeps the property and the land in its traditional agricultural use and this also maintains the livelihood of the rancher creates jobs and contributes to his community probably the best thing i can do is give an example of a customer of mine who had a home place of twenty five hundred acres his neighbor was seeking to sell his ranch of five thousand acres he was able to secure a conservation easement partially with funds through the conservancy and the conservancy fund that enabled him to acquire the neighboring ranch out of debt level that was sustainable for his operation by doing this he was able to bring home his nephew and his family obviously that puts more kids in our schools and contributes to our community other ways that the easement funds can be used to simply to pay down debt so their cash flow is more viable and oftentimes they'll use easement funds to improve their infrastructure maybe their water and systems quitman improve their technology all of these things contribute to the viability and profitability of their rancher which flows down to our local community in summary wildlife habitat and working ranches are both key components to our american heritage to achieve both these goals with the use of l w for the support of locally driven voluntary concert is highly cost effective and efficient it provides our ranchers and rural communities with a valuable tool that creates opportunities to preserve our landscapes while simultaneously giving them more sustainability and viability i thank you for the opportunity to visit with you this morning and would welcome any questions or clarifications you two reports they are produced with recommendations on how to better develop energy on federal land without impacting hunting and fishing opportunities and second i'd like to enter the testimony of the nature conservancy their testimony outlines their support for a full and chairman i'm not sure that it would or would not i i would make the comment very clearly that doublet county is home to over thirty five trillion cubic feet of natural gas and on personal speculation i don't see energy delivered walking away from that sort of natural twin aims of ensuring that both be o e m and the public are fully informed of the environmental consequences of the b l e m's actions in quote what is this what is the impact of this ban on the ground is my question  chairman one of our most serious concerns when the town was submitting official comment to the b l m as a participating agency in the sci s and r and t record a decision process was the pace of development one thing that we've seen based on all the to drill with categorical exclusions is a very rapid pace of development our concerns and then surely and continue to be a slower pace of development in our community would give us the opportunity to plan for change see what's coming down the pipe a parallel coal infrastructure for what sort of growth we will see at a much slower pace of development got a core group solutions have among other things certainly increase the rate of develop in our community which is a real challenge for us appreciate that you mentioned that your community dynamic has changed natural gas drilling has brought challenges and you mentioned several of those in your testimony the air quality water water quality the need to require best management practices do you think it to be a liam has appropriately balanced conservation with the need to get energy out of the ground in the pinedale area and if not do you think this legislation will help to reestablish that balance if you're speaking of conservation as far as land and wildlife mitigation i think the b l m has done an adequate job of that in the past one of our major concerns is that there's no provisions within the record of decision from the b l m to look at the social and economic impacts of our community those impacts that have affected those of us that live there on a daily basis that profession could be capturing yeah i can't give you numbers i don't i don't know the exact amount that's being vented the only data that i have is from several mines in colorado there is this one mine i mentioned the west elk mine there's another one about to be permitted very near to the west mine that will also i'm told is going to be emitting or venting even more methane then than the current mine the west salt mine is emitting and that this is a problem generally it underground mines because of the way that the coal deposits it when they're deep underground the pressure some of the pressure of being a deep deposit increases the amount of methane and so when they develop any underground mine they have to vent in terms of total quantities i can't tell you exactly how much it is i do know that in the east and in your state of west virginia in a number of or of other eastern states where the mining company owns both the methane and the coal or owns the whole mineral estate there are these joint developments going on it can be done it is being done and i believe it is profitable for the when you were teaching there was an earthquake you may recall we were all about to dive under our desks at the university while in college of law when the earthquake finally stopped but it was quite an experience it's nice to see you again like to say to mr hodge that your testimony is music to my ears as a former member of the warming stockbrokers agricultural land trust where we work with ranchers to hold over one hundred twenty thousand acres of agricultural conservation easements i was delighted with your testimony and thank you for being here my questions are first for mayor smith and mayor it's nice to see you here thank you for coming while we certainly don't agree entirely on how to get there we all agree that a responsible balance between energy development and other public land uses and protections is what this committee is constantly striving to find so i  deeply appreciate your willingness to attend today i might note that in the letter that i received and that was addressed to the chairman and the ranking member the county commissioner factual or impartial collection of information and was in fact prepared by an environmental group in wyoming that has fought energy development in our county i'm quoting from the county commissioners letter the fact sheet doesn't give an accurate presentation of the facts and fails to note that while categorical exclusions are indeed commonly used by our local b l m office for processing applications for permits to drill that is because the agency has already completed exhaustive environmental impact statements for the development that is currently occurring categorical excuse exclusions are used because the analysis has been made and mitigation has already been determined and because  proposed drilling falls within the narrow categories for such use and i further command mr chairman this letter to your attention my question mayor smith you made several points in your testimony about the financial costs of maintaining and repairing infrastructure in pinedale and it has experienced tremendous growth due to energy development and i agree that those costs can be very significant as a former member of the board of land commissioners in wyoming who issues mineral royalty grants to communities especially impacted areas such as yours and when i sat on that board we issued numerous grants of federal mineral royalties to your community you have a magnificent new sizable state of the our aquatic center i believe your library is the most fantastic library in the state of wyoming you have a magnificent senior and community center all paid for in large part by the mineral production oil and gas production  you did assert that the energy industry is passing the buck by not finding these improvements are the companies operating sublette county not paying a sizable royalty on what they produce and half of that money being returned to the state for the very purpose you described mineral role to grants for impacted areas through the board of land commissioners in addition to the taxes you received represent islam and thank you for the question and good morning ma'am  hundred were used in our small very small pinedale b l m field office alone and i do find that concerning moving onto the resources that we have in sub county we do have a lot of very nice facility and aquatic center which is paid for by recapture from the school district county commissioners have been very generous in funding senior centers my wife works at the library which is a tremendous facility that being said it's not i'm not a matter of how we spend the tax monies that come back rather than my opinion that socioeconomic issues should be considered in records of decision for use on that school the development not for resources on on federal lands that being said the town of pinedale last year and our budget received under three hundred thousand dollars of direct payment from an overall teasing one zero seven says so how that system is set up for distribution of those funds are also of great concern to me and mr chairman should i use the balance of my time as now or later thank you in wyoming revenue largely goes to the county and as you know supplied county is the wealthiest county in the state of wyoming by virtue of the production of oil and gas in the county so is part of the problem perhaps not the fact that the money goes to the county rather than the city i assume that's a question for me it is mr smith the way that the mineral wealth these are distributed amongst the state to the counties in the towns is a matter is a state issue those decisions are made the formulas are set up by state statute so yes that could be a situation that we need addressed at the state level the second attachment to my written testimony by me was a letter from all elected officials inside the county to the governor wyoming outlining the infrastructure requirements and things that we needed to address that our budgets were not being that our budgets were not allowing us to do yes there are and i don't forget for a moment that oil and gas industry corporations are taxpayers as  well going back to my original theory we need to have those issues addressed in the record of decision for small communities that are impacted by drilling on federal lands thank you mr chairman with regard to the document you submitted for the record regarding categorical excuse exclusion she used by the be only in pinedale office the one that was referenced in the county commissioner's letter that says was prepared by  environmental organization to raise several questions for me so i contacted the pinedale field office of the b l m to directly verify the data the pinedale field office told me they found numerous comment and do you stand by the document you submitted represent them with the document i submitted was more than anything a courtesy to explain categorical exclusions and how i view them within the pinedale field office certainly can different opinions on the source categorical exclusions have been a very serious concern for locals in my community as well obviously as environmental groups as they in some ways circumvent the policies and requirements set forth by  again i will stand firmly by the fact that i feel fifteen hundred categorical exclusions in three years is excessive mr chairman that in spite of the fact that environmental impact statements were performed yes ma'am mayor thank you so much for coming to washington i now have a question for my former professor mark school laci it's not so nice to see you congressman what incentive do you think the bill provides for uranium exploration in wyoming under the proposed legislation there would be a leasing program there'd be an opportunity for exploration as well there would be an obligation to pay a fair royalty to the government if you are a name is developed on the public lands and so  that's the way all of our other fuel resources are developed on the public lands i don't think they're releasing process has unduly hindered that development it certainly could occur with uranium as well  another question for mr squatch what you said in your testimony that cheaply developed uranium in canada in australia offset the need to produce uranium here in the u s my question is does your cost analysis include the negative impact to jobs and local economies that would hit wyoming which is the number one state for uranium production in iranian reserves in the u s our local economies how would they be here should we drive this industry away to australia fair point i don't think this is a question of driving the industry out of the united states there actually is not very much uranium development in the united states i believe that in wyoming north of cheyanne there is one two sites that i think the largest in the united states and there are a few others in other places in the united states but we develop only about five percent of the uranium that we actually use in the united states  right now and you know what has kept i think uranium mining out of the not united states under the current regime has simply been the low price of uranium now it spiked as you know i'm sure a couple of years ago but it's back down to i think forty three forty five dollars a pound from being up boards of i think on hundred forty so i think it's really the price of uranium that has that is limited development and we haven't seen a substantial amount of development i don't really think i don't know the numbers of jobs that exist with uranium but as i said it's such a small amount of development of uranium in the united states that we're not talking about a lot of jobs under the proposed legislation these existing operations to the extent that they're on public lands would be allowed to convert again because we're dealing with a hazardous kind of material the leasing program would allow what i think would be better management of these resources and better assurance that we could reclaim the sites in a market is there to do it but it also acknowledges that in terms of our strategic needs that we have friendly countries who are in a position to provide it if we can't or economically are not interested in providing it ourselves mr let me answer the last question first no we fully support the efforts of the administration to to develop a national ocean policy and a framework for implementation that's consistent with the recommendations of both the pew commission the oceans commission and the u s commission on ocean policy the problem being that in the oceans you don't have a single landlord or square mile of land and so because of that legal framework which is not likely to fundamentally change we need the agencies to work together and are a national framework and we need the federal government once it is better organized to work with the states to provide comprehensive management for those marine ecosystems which for some reason just don't respect the jurisdictional boundaries that we've imposed on them having said that i don't think we're in disagreement with dr lubchenco in that we support the goal of comprehensive management but the administration can only do what it does under the authority of current law and they can do quite a bit but but ultimately they will probably need changes in statutory law to more fully implement that in addition with all due respect i  don't see the energy legislation being that enacted you know within the next few weeks i think there's plenty of time to work out any coordination needs with what the administration is doing and what this bill does and if we're going to walk before we can run the energy sectors it is a substantial use of the offshore and and providing better coordination from that for that use with more consideration of other ocean uses and users is a significant step forward that i think will contribute to the overall effort thank you thank you very much my question mr mann interestingly while no stated that a comprehensive plan at some point in the future and with no clear explanation of how such a policy or the golf plan into their vision for marine planning would you care to talk about why  piecemeal approach to offshore aquaculture regulation is not what you think the approach should be thank you for the opportunity to again disagree with my good friend  but we do not think that the way to get there is through the law designed to regulate fisheries management it was not as chairman ray hall has articulated to both the administration and to the guy fishery management  council congress didn't intend that law to regulate fisheries there is some technical overlap perhaps in that if you have a fish on your boat you know you may need an exemption from the magnuson act to be able to take that but but that doesn't in any way justify extrapolation to a full on permitting and regulating regulatory program for something that is very fundamental aquaculture is a form of agriculture it's not capture fisheries  so i do think that argument that you mentioned made by by no is is a little inconsistent they are they are endorsing a piecemeal approach for aqua culture at a time when we don't was through pinedale back in it's been a number of years it was an absolutely gorgeous community and one of the concerns i have because i spend a lot of time in my own state grappling with these issues has less to do with the development of the oil and gas as it has to do with the long term impacts of fragmentation in places like the jonah field that you deal with and that we we have similar issues in the  northwest and southeast parts of our state and i wanted to ask you if you had any suggestions or recommendations for best practices to address some of the needs for service road reclamation seasonal closures and other things that can allow for the development of oil and gas in a way that still protects both the natural resource for hunters and fishermen and recreation us  and also the economic resource that that provides that's a sportsman make up an enormous part of new mexico's economy and i can only imagine that the same is true in wyoming congressman thank you both for the compliment and for the question  in the jonah field in the pinedale and aquinas there has been serious mitigation efforts made first of all for population studies on mule deer as well as state grass habitat along those lines the industry has stepped up quite valiantly actually and funding some of those litigations both that b l m and the governor's request and quite frankly i think they've done a pretty good job one thing that the operators there three operators opined on hannah cline which is a proposed four thousand lot of element they've worked creatively to find a way to cooperate and to explore and produce in groups and other words all work in one specific area of the geographic location develop that without interrupting migration routes and then once that exploration has concluded they will as a group again move in a cooperative effort so that migration routes are not affected i commend them for that and it's been it's been good work the economic development pinedale is a great bonus for us again i'm not here to advocate for or against energy  it's a resource that we really benefited from over the last few years wildlife mitigation has been taken seriously and we're happy to have seen phased phased development within a generally scenario is one of the things that you think it's really worth taking a lesson from i do that is something fairly original i think that has come up and the industry and for the most part had done that themselves they made proposals during the f b i s on the end of line that they would move forward with  thank you chairman and i knew you set me between two microphones for a reason could i just inquire as to as to the number of letters on the letter are we behind on unanimous consent because i could write one right now if you want me to your ahead we don't need your ok i only have two quick questions mr mann if i could and just for you i was intrigued yesterday when the secretary discussed one of the advantages of wind power on the outer continental shelf was its proximity to areas of demand was he accurate when he said that proximity was one of the benefits for the balance of the o c s for wind power in your opinion  obviously i'll give you the best answer i can on that mr bishop i'm not an expert on offshore energy production but yes i believe that's what he said and i agree with it that if you  if you have an area with a good wind field to produce the energy the issue with renewables always seems to be getting it on getting it to where the users are so so depending on where the resource is it can be very good potentially on the east coast with a high population density and relatively shallow continental shelf where you can develop wind quite a ways out in other less populated areas it probably wouldn't make sense to develop that resource because the last transmission would diminish the return on that thank you for that answer i appreciate because it presented the least question in my mind and i guess i could ask the next one with that do you believe the development of natural gas on the outer continental shelf of the atlantic which is certainly closer than trying to do that or been swale or egypt where we're presently importing liquid national gas through atlant ports would have the same and a similar benefit to the united states  as i testified we are we are not opposed to development of offshore mineral resources whether that's natural gas or oil and gas i think the challenge there is the difficulty in separating natural gas production from oil production and i know there's been a lot of talk of it up here by people who know much more about it than i do but i'm not aware that you can truly separate that and  producing either has environmental impacts so you know i think the point of my testimony today was not to say not to try to tell you where when and how offshore resources should be developed but to advocate a process that allows for decision making on a regional basis it takes better count account of of the users and uses of those resources and tries to come up with a plan that is more durable both politically and environmentally you know on a regional basis to advise the secretary and i thank you for coming through with that clarification there it is i think interesting especially for those in the west who are dealing with a her last speech i'm trying to catch up here the gentleman from the gentle lady i'm sorry from new hampshire michele porter's recognize thank you very much i'm very interested in pinedale because i think is a case study we know that we're going to have to continue to find our resources to fuel our energy requirements but i'd like to talk about pine deal if you will please because the conversation that we had previously where they were talking about the letter from the sub county commissioners and you have your materials from an environmental group and i would say that each has its place there and so i'm happy that everybody's engaged in this conversation it's also nice you my colleague praised federal gran funds and i'm happy that your community has received some benefits along with the sacrifices smith but could you talk to me about what was your population before the big discovery of natural gas and what is your population now get out of out of the b l s in our area we really have no reference there wasn't a tremendous amount of permitting allowed before this became a natural gas county as far as the ratio of other communities experience i'm not sure guess you're all in this letter together and letter states to the governor although our community has benefited enormously from energy development our list illustrates of the costs of man to the infrastructure and public services have outstripped our ability to find these necessities  towns in particular a disadvantage in finding infrastructure needs can you talk to me about those infrastructure needs i read that you have some problems with your water you have problems with air and you said why only department by mental quality has been active in monterrey in your air quality could you talk a little bit more about the problems and why the county agreed with your statement that the town in your town is having trouble keeping up with the changes and again thank you for the question the letter to the governor was signed by all the elected officials and so the county the mayors of each of our three towns as well as each member of the members of the of the commission we had approached the governor regarding identifying some of the impacts that we have and in that letter we specifically outlined the needs to each town as well as the county commissioners needs which i think their request was around thirty two million dollars for the shortfall and in building a road that they needed as far as our water quality goes we have no real concerns about our drinking water our main concerns of the county based on the residents that i visited with our questions over ozone we've had multiple issues of those on occurrence in the county in the last two years in a very rural community we've exceeded the federal standard of seventy five parts per billion on numerous occasions going as high as one hundred twenty two parts per billion and keep in mind this is a very rural community this is not los angeles chicago new york we have less than a thousand people in the county where having those on alert that prompted citizens groups to be created to come to the  when you have this growth you obviously have problems in your community and again i would like to repeat the line that your county with you although our community has benefited enormously from energy development our list illustrates that the cost of maintaining infrastructure and public services have outstripped our ability to find these necessities so we all know and we understand that we are going to have to continue to develop energy but what would your message be to the communities  the next communities and what do you want us to do for them as well as for yourselves as we continue to develop our sources of energy for future small communities that are expected to be impacted by this sort of rapid development and very large development first of all become a participating agency with a local b l m office that gives the opportunity submit official comment to them for the record of decision secondly make sure you address in writing your concerns about potential social necronomicon issues not specific to wildlife or lambs or reclamation but to the people of your small community the needs of the community and the people the taxpayers of this country who just want to maintain their quality of life as much as possible while we also develop energy that's exactly right we need the energy we need for local economies the state economies we need for the national economy national defense chairman we're taking up some matters here that clearly if passed once again will make our natural resources more difficult and some of these areas to sure and it's really astounding when i appreciated your comment that you felt torn you needed to protect the integrity of the i g selfless but based on some hearings we've had in the last couple of years you can be comforted i don't think there's that much integrity to protect there so you can find comfort there being back pretty good yes exactly we had hearings on the nine hundred ninety eight and not two hundred ninety nine deepwater leases that were released during the clinton administration which the federal government lost ten billion dollars because they didn't put the price thresholds in there as any most any people with with some sense in the area would have done and the inspector general veiny has been up here and testified and on questioning he never really got to the bottom of why that was  left out even though either it was gross negligence or something even more sinister and the last report we had was that the people that really knew what happened had left government service so they really couldn't be question well good news on that front we now know that one of the two primary people involved in that gross misconduct whether it was negligent or intentional is now the new deputy director of mineral management service so good news there and the other is as now been named deputy assistant secretary of the land and minerals management where she will oversee mineral leasing so good news there you know and of course the inspector general didn't come up here and test a buyout about first that they hadn't got to the bottom and then later to those people they left government service well fortunately a man that was able to get to the bottom of it and not be able to find what the problem was is now in charge of the seven hundred eighty seven billion dollars stimulus package so we can be comforted there mr mann you mentioned that you know that there have been people who come up here and testified who know a lot more about the oil and gas separation issue than you do but i wanted to thank you for being willing to weigh in there on that issue even though you didn't know near as much as they did but let me let me tell you that i was willing to lend or sure  energy resources and you know for example the royalty in kind you know there were some problems as a law and order judge i believe if somebody has done something wrong you go after them that's not what we're doing here we're going to eliminate the problem instead of fixing the ethical problems and allowing the program to continue and making sure it's adequately supervise a program which actually writes his millions of dollars in additional revenue that we wouldn't otherwise get instead of fixing it going after the problems we just going to eliminate it and you know there have been some  say royalties would not otherwise have it was money that we would not otherwise have there is a distinction because the government was able to make money from some of that oil that they wouldn't have otherwise  the government people who have figured out it's actually made some money i think the industry people have been benefiting from right well and i appreciate that but and again you say you think the government people think but again the problem is when there's apical violation you fix that but that's a time i only asked for about a tenth as much time over my five minutes as we've been getting but i had some chinese visitors here and said you know we've been saying you're constantly bringing up legislation the last couple years that make it more and more difficult to use your own natural resources and since they think in terms of hundreds of years instead of tomorrow they said we've been trying to figure out what you're doing we figured out what you're doing in your government you are putting your resources where they're harder and harder to get so that the rest of the world will have to use up their natural resources and then when everyone else is are all used up you'll be the only superpower once again because you'll be the only one with the resources and i said you know what i wish i could tell you that we think that far ahead like you do but we just don't give it that kind of thought and i sure do wish we would there there are ways that the environment can benefit because when we hurt the economy as we saw last summer unfortunately people quit caring about the environment because they're so worried about getting their gas tank feel and i hate to see the environment hurt the way it does and the way it is when we keep making it more and more difficult to get our resources people have to pay more the economy is in trouble and so i would just encourage keep an open mind keep in mind the poor single moms that have been hit me up when gas prices get that eighty year old lady that says i'm not going to be able to afford propane and electricity anymore i'm not sure that i want in my life with a wood stove the way i started and i had to assure her that because of cap and trade she may not be able fiscal conservative congressman i would just remind you that royalty collection is essentially the second largest source of revenue for the taxpayer after taxes and fell that's why we have to jealously guard to make sure that the taxpayers are getting as much royalties as possible from our natural resources but you understand the legislation we're taking is going to create the ability for for more litigation than we've had in the past you do see that potential in this foreign energy sources but also to make sure that the environment is protected as well so a balanced approach is what i look at in this proposed bill and i just want to ask a couple of questions here with some members of our panel as shown by the tragic legacy of the navajo indian reservation for a minute also rise by the department of energy contaminated water supply has led to a dramatic rise of the incidence of lung cancer especially among indian miners  i would say that that's a real sad legacy of the history of uranium mining in our country's history can you elaborate a little further other than the indian the navajo nation indian tribes whom we leas reservation but the primary development has been in new mexico on the navajo reservation a very large reservation as you probably know about a quarter of the united states uranium reserves of the discovered reserves are on navajo land so they  host to much of the uranium that we have in the united states but because of the legacy of the past abuses by uranium mining and despite the fact that they are very willing to promote energy development of other forms on their reservation including coal they have as a government and certainly local people are adamantly opposed to any new uranium mining on that reservation if you talk to navajo people most of them know someone who has died from lung cancer the the uranium mining that was done results in releases of large amounts of rain on in the mind that people are sent down into the mines usually native people down into the mines exposures far in excess of government levels and and they are still facing the legacy from from that experience there was also a dam at church rock new mexico that burst i believe it was in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine that sent down ninety three million gallons of  radioactive contaminated water into the real puerto river and very about one percent of it was cleaned up after the operation so it's these kinds of incidences that have led the navajos to oppose new mining and it's part of what leads me to think that a leasing program would allow us to do better planning if we're going to allow what we need to decide where it's appropriate where we're not going to unduly impact people and if we're going to allow we need to be sure that the environmental impacts of that these people in terms of not only the health wise i believe there is some legislation that has been considered over the years by congress to address and remediate the problems of the navajos has have faced and also congressman ray hall has other legislation as you probably know dealing with mining law reform more generally that would set up an abandoned mine reclamation program that would allow a fund to be developed that would provide money to reclaim some of these lands so that there are some initiatives that have been taken best should we redevelop nuclear energy as a major portion of our efforts to become energy independent you know currently we are importing over seven hundred billion dollars worth of oil from foreign countries do you think that maybe nuclear energy could be part of the solution to the problem given the challenges that we're facing with respect to climate change right now i think all forms of energy ought to be on the table we need to we need to look at things like uranium a nuclear power development there are some new generation kinds of nuclear plants that many people think are a better design and are safer and would allow for appropriate development but obviously it raises some significant challenges as well despite the development and nuclear power should be part of the next or at least on the table in the discussion what i don't i know my time's up just a quick note that i was recently invited by the government of kazakhstan to go there and to go to ground zero where the former soviet unit exploded the bomb in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine guess what that place is still contaminated but the horrors of all this is that after the former soviet union conducted four hundred fifty nuclear bomb  two questions to mr mann if i could and then a question to the rancher on the panel i have a lot of ranchers in my district who have appreciate your being on this panel mr man as you know my district has a long history off the coast of california  legacy that would be left it pretty hard to clean up and now off our coast and on our public lands many of our constituents and i and others are prioritizing clean renewable energy like wind and wave and solar as exciting opportunities for the future we're talking about smart development and given the overwhelming need to get renewables on the ground or in the water isn't it possible how do we know how to plan in advance to mitigate for some of the conflicts some of the problems that we don't anticipate now but that very well could be there in the same way that the history has shown us in the past how can we ensure that deployment of renewables is done strategically w  we appreciate that fossil fuels are going to be part of the mix for some time to come i think that's not the question the question is can we can we begin the necessary transition to a renewable and sustainable energy economy because if we don't addressing the long term concerns of mr gohmert brought up we will be in trouble over the long term effects that are already evident from climate do know some and the way we believe that you need to do it at least for offshore energy production is to consider it is to get a good assessment in hand of what the resources are not just energy but living resources and the uses it's kind of a mapping exercise what are the uses in a region and think about it and discuss it with the community both the users and the public desire and  try to some come to some conclusion about the best balance of resources on a regional basis where people have the actual you know it shouldn't be done in a centralized way from washington and decisions  imposed it needs to be done on a regional basis where people have a connection and will live with the consequences of those decisions i hope that addresses your question and that needs to be formalized now the administration is working on doing that creating a i'm in a straight up process to do that we're very updated periodically the management needs to be adaptive we address the concerns as best we understand them now and later on if there are more concerns that needs to cycle into that but it doesn't mean you know the application of precaution doesn't mean that you don't go forward regional collaboration and that's what you're kind of referring to such as the west coast governor's agreement on ocean health and as you know it clear act provides funding to regional ocean partnerships these kind of partnerships are considered by both ocean commission by both ocean commission to be crucial to addressing the management of human activity on our oceans why elaborate a little bit more on why regional ocean partnerships are so important  has complete control over over the real estate and this is why i don't know if this is a plausible on public lands but in the ocean far smarter people than may have looked at this and come to the conclusion that we need to to get these various resource management agencies together and get their decisions aligned in that adaptive way that you spoke of and again because of control over  different areas the states control it's much smaller in area but i think in the perception of most people and in the reality of biology it's some of the most important areas both in terms of economic and environmental resources the states are critical partner congress has given them control over waters out to three or in some cases nine miles they need to be once the federal government is organized better they need to be brought in as well the states if we're go have a truly more comprehensive form of ocean management that can deal with all the uses that are going on out there thank you very much but can i ask i don't want to leave out the very role that people who live really understand the land as ranchers do the perspective that i wanted to ask your perspective mr hotchkiss in my district i've seen firsthand how the conservation element and benefit and our environment both together in one pitted against the other but very much a partnership you described in your testimony how these elements can work to strengthen your local economy that's something that easement they are now extremely popular as i mentioned in my testimony we currently have about one hundred twenty thousand acres on call waiting if you will waiting for funding that represents about sixteen ranchers as i was thinking about my testimony just within my own portfolio at the bank where small community agricultural bank and i currently have somewhere in the neighborhood of fifteen to twenty of my customers are involved with an operation of some kind that have been involved with the conservation easement so it is being embraced by the community largely in part because of the long term relationship that the nature conservancy has built in our area through their local project manager he's lived in our community and there's been a great deal of trust developed there and i think people maybe underestimate the importance of that trust when they're trying to work with farming ranching community in terms of trying to specifically a fi how the conservation also impacts our local economy ranchers are a bit like everyone else's any money they have they spend it quite rapidly and one way or the other and most of the instances i've familiar with they've used that money to leverage themselves into a larger operation to help their economies of scale and to make room for the next generation as as ranching changes they need more and more ground they need more and more animals to remain viable and in order to make room for the next generation you need more economies of scale so that's the manner in which most often i see easements funds used to expand their ranch operation how that flows down to local community is such that if the rancher were unable to buy that neighboring ranch it likely would be bought by a recreational buyer that would not be stocking it with cattle would not be spending much money on mineral that mary services organization to appreciate the ways that the economy will really be strengthened ways that they can fit in so that it will absolutely strengthen the economy as well as to protect some of the goals of preserving the rural landscape  resources that might pertain to the united states and to participate in international discussions about the management of protection of marine resources particularly in the arctic where there is aggressive action by a number of countries to own about three million square miles of ocean and a company from norway recently conducted the potential in the sea bed ocean of the island nation of our resource and our wealth that we have not even given any serious consideration for you maybe this legislation might address that issue as well it's a mineral no it's not on the land in the ocean it's a  mineral i would need to think about soon that those might be subject to leasing under the o c s lands act but i'm not i'm not sure at this moment with respect to the to the larger issue of whether we should consider developing those i mean that's a public policy decision for the administration and congress to decide to environment group who would of course want to make sure that those minerals were developed in an environmentally responsible way the deep sea is a little known environment and what we've seen in the past unfortunately with our resource exploitation in this country and around the world is that we often rush in and minerals up till now the economics you know the minerals are very concentrated in those nodules so if you get one in your hand it's much better than most of the ores that you have to get out of the ground the problem is you've got to go down three four five thousand meters in some cases to get there and that kind of puts a crimp on the economics those have not in the past in economically exploitable with the price of metals right now in our economic situation i thank the panel very much for their time and expertise this morning dennis eastover ph d executive vice president americas uranium one mr doug morris director of stream and industry operations american petroleum institute mr james e s or the executive administrator great lakes indian fish and wildlife commission gentlemen we welcome you to the committee on natural resources we do have you prepared testimony will be made a part of the record as if actually read and you are encouraged to summarize within a five minute period and may proceed in order and which which i just  good morning german or a hall ranking member has things member of the committee thank you for my opportunity to speak to you this morning about h r thirty five thirty four my name is craig madison ski i am the chief executive of renewable energy systems americas reza merican is one of the leading renewable energy companies in the country we have constructed owned or operated more than thirty four hundred megawatts of renewable energy projects since  seventy and have made more than twelve thousand five hundred megawatts of wind and solar projects currently in our development portfolio i'm also testifying this morning on behalf of the american wind energy association  in the solar energy industries association or in terms of my specific comments on h r thirty five thirty four i want to be clear that the renewable energy developers are generally supportive of the existing federal framework for permitting projects the process is not perfect but we believe that the shortcomings in the existing processes such as inconsistent implementation of the rules by some field offices delays in processing and inadequate resources for the agencies do not require a major overhaul of the rules that said we do understand the committee's interest is in reforming the rules for wind and solar will provide recommendations on how to improve the overhauls proposed under the bill while noting that the wind and solar industries believe that addressing the shortcomings in implementing the existing rules would have the most positive impact in the near term first i'd like to acknowledge some improvements that have been made the wind and solar industries greatly appreciate the removal of the onshore mapping provisions that could place broad areas off limits to renewable energy development regardless of site specific characteristics or information we also appreciate the addition of language allowing the secretary to provide preference during the competitive process to a company that has installed a mid meterological tower or other device for resource meant measurement finally we appreciate the expanded grandfathering provisions for both onshore and offshore projects however even with these improvements we see the need for additional enhanced mit's in these areas and others regarding the consolidation of energy leasing programs the wind and solar industries are concerned that  energy leasing into a single office will undermine the renewable energy cord nation offices the secretary has created and further increase already extensive processing delays if you move forward with consolidation we would respectfully request a separate and adequately psi staff dedicated solely to reviewing and processing renewable energy applications we would also suggest including legislation along the lines of h r twenty six sixty two to dedicate a portion of the renewable energy feeds back to the interior define the processing of additional energy renewable energy applications regarding competitive leasing our industries understand the interest in moving all energy sources to the same type of leasing platform at the same time as i detail in my written testimony the federal track record with respect to competitive leasing for wind and solar has not yielded positive results in the solar industry which is even less mature than the wind industry sees more difficulties if the committee doesn't look to move forward with competitive leasing we would recommend the following first the secretary should be required to establish standards for bidders to demonstrate that they have developed capabilities and finance the wherewithal to compete complete viable projects these recommendations combined with existing due diligence language would discourage speculation second bidding should be done in a single round with strict timelines for leasing office actions and third to ensure compare ability of the various bids the process should be based on a package of rental fees prior to operation of a project project operational date and royalties once the project is operational regarding grandfathering we propose grandfathering all projects with applications pending as of the date of an accident of the bill this would hold harmless those applicants who have filed papers spent time and money but may have seen delays in processing for example my company has been waiting for over five years to get a met tower lease for b l m from b l m on one of our wind projects with the existing grandfathering language despite the significant money and time we've already spent we would have to bid in order to continue development of that site with respect to royalties the rental fees paid by wind energy and energy developers already incorporate a royalty calculation by the b l m a five percent of project revenues this is approximately market under the current system solar developers pay an annual rental fee based on a below and valuation of the permitted land should the committee move forward with a more explicit royalty process we request the following and royalties for solar projects need to consider both the revenue stream and the permitted acreage third royalty should be fixed for the life of the project at the start predictability is a critical element of financing renewable energy projects finally relative to offshore wind energy development a few comments my company is not currently building any offshore wind farms however i will share the concerns of always offshore wind developers with the bill in terms of grandfathering for offshore development creation of the vision under h r thirty five thirty four as a new layer of regulation for offshore wind at a time when the ink is barely dry and the rules finalized by m m s a few months ago offshore wind developers and potentially investors in both projects are extremely wary of new regulations which may result in further delay relative to marine spatial planning the wind industry supports it in principle however we see a need to be careful in that the collection of data is relatively little at this point there are some big data gaps that exist so proceeding in a way that would not limit the development of offshore winds overly limit the development offshore projects would be advisable i want to thank you again for the opportunity today the wind and solar industries do look forward to continuing to work with the interested members of the committee staff on improving the bill as it moves forward thank you mr campbell mr chairman and members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to discuss the clear act and the effects this legislation could have on the american energy supply from the federal lands in the inner mountain west these lands contain vast amounts of our domestic natural gas resources expanded use of domestic natural gas is the most obvious and cost effective way in mediately and over the long term to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and increase our energy security and during resources my company is a small independent natural gas exploration and production company headquartered in denver colorado independent producers like in during our small businesses with an average of twelve employees  percent of u s wells produce eighty two percent of america's natural gas my company has one thousand employees and natural gas holdings in utah in texas approximately eighty percent of our utah wells and lease holder on public lan i'm here today on behalf of the independent petroleum association mountain states which represents more than four hundred companies and over one hundred fifty thousand workers engaged in all aspects of natural gas and oil production in the rockies their region supplies about twenty seven percent of america's natural gas about fifty four percent of which is on federal lands therefore the concern is that the clear act would put at risk approximately fifteen percent of america's natural gas  pams believe that the clear act would what it risks many of the two hundred sixty seven thousand industry jobs in the rockies that time consuming delays by creating a new government bureaucracy and redundant layers of regulations institute policies that will hamper the action of market mechanisms significantly increased cost to produce natural gas and oil on federal lands and fundamentally change the multiple use management of public lands to an approach that will restrict energy development both conventional and renewable the legislation displays a lack of understanding of the business of natural gas and oil production there are vast differences in geology topography environmental considerations market considerations and many other factors which make producers are already making every effort to diligently develop ways where it makes economic sense to do so any definition of diligent development must include recognition of all factors involved in the exploration  production of natural gas an additional impediment created by the hose legislation is the imposition of top down control from by imposing best management practices and benchmark from washington rather than from land managers on the ground i personally i have extensive experience interacting with the various federal agencies managing our public lands i find these individuals to be hardworking dedicated and willing to sit down and problem solved at all levels as the local representatives of public lands they have the best understanding of how to protect the environment while achieving energy production the clear act direct fundamental changes to federal and gas leeson system that has already proven remarkably responsive to energy demands of our nation the clear act w assign the government to the task of establishing the fair market value for onshore leases and change the current live auction system to a sealed system only the government setting a mark to market value is inherently contradictory concept i pan's believe the free enterprise system in a live auction system is the best method for determining fair market value rather than government bureaucracy further the clear act would destroy the integrity of the bidding system rather than a winning bid fairly allow a seller to withdraw goods from a sale after someone has fairly won the bidding process more importantly independents reinvest one hundred percent or more of their cash flow into new development projects the clear act would increase rental fees minimum bonuses and regulatory cost and add a production incentive non producing acres with these additional expenses producers will have less capital available to explore for and produce american energy this is particularly impactful in the second on the climate dollar invested the program return forty six dollars industry assumes all the cost in rexx risk of exploring for and producing natural gas and oil supplies domestic supplies needed domestic energy provides millions of jobs and pays a significant return to the american taxpayer i say that my time is over and the committee to the recommendations contained in my written testimony thank you very much testified today on behalf of the national mining association about the negative impacts of removing uranium from the auspices of the mining law and making at lease of all under the mineral lease uranium one is the seventh largest uranium mining company in the world we are currently licensing three new insight to recover uranium mines two in wyoming and one in texas we are reactivating our conventional uranium mill and permitting an underground mine in utah much of our mineral rights nationwide are tied to federal lands last month we paid nearly one point four million dollars to the u s bureau of land management and annual maintenance fees for patented mining claims the vast majority of holdings are exploratory properties that will require extensive exploration expenditures over several years to test and then confirm the presence of economic quantities of uranium only then will we begin the multi year licensing and permitting process that leads to construction and operation of commercial commercial mining facilities all the while annual claim maintenance payments will continue to flow to the b l m in my view the proposal to make uranium a lisa bloom mineral will not only negatively impact the domestic uranium mining industry but also the economy and national security of the us there are no such incentives to explore and no preferential leasing rights for the company that makes a discovery contained in the bill this will put an end to the growth of a viable domestic uranium mining industry an industry that creates high paying jobs with good benefits and provides energy resources critical to meeting our nationals our nation's dual goals of degree decreasing our reliance on foreign energy supplies and drastically reducing domestic greenhouse gas emissions a common argument in favor of leasing uranium is that uranium is a fuel mineral and therefore should be governed like fossil fuel such as oil gas and coal under the mineral leasing act this assumption ignores the fact that uranium in fact is a metals i began my professional career as an oil and gas reservoir engineer was with a major oil company now after thirty years in uranium mining i can assure you that you know that the uranium geology geochemistry and production methods are totally different from those of coal oil and gas further leasing system is not needed to address address the question of the lack of fair return on your annual production from federal lands for the last decade the mining industry has fully supported the payment of a reasonable net proceeds type loyalty from production on federal lands through amendments to the general mining law the u s currently consumes about fifty six million pounds of uranium each year it only produces four and a half the us has the world's largest fleet of nuclear power plants that produce twenty percent of our country's electricity yet the us produces today less than ten percent of its own uranium and imports the balance time and time again have been voiced to me personally by the investment community as to whether any new licenses for your rainy a mining will ever be issued by the us federal government investors need to know that if you're any in project in the u can obtain approval and proceed as long as the operator complies with all the relevant laws and regulations finally the legislation fails to include any type of rights existing rights language to protect preexisting property rights from being impaired by subsequently enhanced policy changes flailing to take into consideration property rights related to a valid mining law claims established prior to an act of the bill the legislation will likely generate claims for taking under the taking clause of the constitution in conclusion a stable regulatory environment is critical for development of  resources or we risk becoming even more reliant on foreign uranium increased import dependency causes a loss of job creation alter to us balance of payments leads to unpredictable price for fluctuations and vulnerability to the possible supply disruptions due to political military instability abroad at a time when greenhouse gas emissions must be reduced and all of ailill sources of energy must be utilized to meet increase demand erecting barriers to the vellum of our uranium resources which in in turn fuel the growth of domestic nuclear power simply bad public policy i think the committee for this opportunity to comment mr chairman i am doug morris group director for upstream and industry operations for the american petroleum institute which represents nearly four hundred companies involved in all aspects of the oil and natural gas industry we welcome this opportunity to present industries views on the consolidated land energy and aquatic resources act of two thousand and nine securing america's energy future will require the development of all forms of energy greater focus on energy efficiency and conservation alternative energy sources which are members have made major investments will grow in importance however oil and gas is the lifeblood of the nation's economy and will continue to be vital to our energy security decades to come these resources to keep our transportation systems running heat and cool our homes the basic components of thousands of tumor products that we use daily gas production from federal lands lands plays a role in supplying our nation's energy these areas account for almost twenty five percent of our domestic production provide thousands of jobs where americans are a major source of revenue for the government for decades federal policy prevented the development of hydrocarbon reserves located under most of the now for the first time in many years the secretary of interior has the opportunity to open up these areas to exploration and production and he should do so by moving quickly on the draft five year leasing plan earlier drafts of this bill would have clearly hampered to develop it of oil and gas on federal lands we thank the chairman for delayed many of these oner provisions however we do have concerns with this legislation first it does nothing to encourage the development of oil and gas resources the fact that it creates additional layers of bureaucracy which could in fact slow down leasing for example has the potential to infere interfere with the o c s five year leasing plan process as work well for thirty years this process includes three separate public comment period two separate draft proposals in development an s and even after the secretary approves a final program there is a lengthy public comment period for each lease sale includes consultation with stakeholders it various stages and also a second  this process ensures that the secretary sees extensive public comment is able to give full consideration to all the economic social and environmental issues in developing the program unfortunately this legislation creates new regional planning councils a new independent two year of decision makers which appears to mirror many of the activities that are currently being currently being formed in the current leasing process furthermore these councils have the potential to interfere of o c s development since leasing cannot occur at regional plants and identify an area being suitable for oil and gas leasing by vesting this authority within regional councils the bill could essentially place areas under moratorium for years to come the bill would also eliminate world t n kind the royalty in kind program and use of categorical exclusions these programs simple simplify payments to the federal government eliminate a range of regulatory compliance issues and eliminate unnecessary and redundant environmental studies problems with the management of either of these programs whether perceived or actual can and should be addressed by the interior department elimination of the programs of these programs have the potential that programs have the potential to increase in efficiency is both a necessary and unwise and finally provision such as requiring the promulgati of benchmarks for the development of each least in addition of a production incentive c could increase the burden on less than the interior department with little or no positive impact on the development of federal leases in summary we believe that is important about policies that provide more access to federal lands and remove barriers that delay the development of these resources we should not be erecting an additional obstacles which unfortunately would be the unintended unintended consequences of this legislation delays in oil and gas developments to have a direct impact on our economy an initial study on the impact of a two year delay in developing unconventional natural gas resource resources at about five point seven would not be produce from federal lands over the next thirty years this eighteen percent drop in production would amount to thirty seven billion dollars loss to the economy we look forward to working with you and on the continue development of a process access policy that meets the energy needs of our nation thank you this constitution day to talk about how the other governments of this nation the indian tribal governments might fit in holland why they should for the end under this veil and under this committee's efforts my name is james to help them secure their treaty rights to hunt fish and gather in these areas of land with which they treated with united states united states gain title to the land in exchange for that bargain united guarantee the united states guaranteed the tribes tribes the right to continue to use that land to meet their subsistence their economic their spiritual their cultural and their brand medicinal needs consistent with their into relationship with the natural world and is from that perspective that when whether it's a regional policy commission under this bill or in other contexts when decisions are made that affect the tribes and their resources the tribes need to be at the table not only do they need a seat at the table but they need the capacity to be able to get there an empty seat does the tribes no good and so the the funding mechanisms in which the other governments participate in really need to be made available to the tribal governments as well what we try to do in our written testimony is to provide the story about our tribes and their rights in the great lakes context to help the committee have a record to support these nice provisions that are in the bill to enable and help tribal participation we're sure there's other stories in other parts of the country that can be told and we encourage the committee to talk to tribes from throughout the country as well the whole notion of having tribes participate to participate really is the status quo as this committee knows the policy of self determination self governance of the united states towards tribes has been in place for many many years it's just the way of doing business it's not a matter of one government trying to control and another government it's really a matter of getting the affected governments who have their respective authorities and responsibilities together to coordinate what they do to make sure that they can try to reach consensus to achieve mutual goals the commission just celebrated our twenty fifth anniversary this past summer and we reflected on the history of the relationship of tribes and states in the federal agencies in our particular context with respect to these treaty rights twenty five years ago when the tribes first began to exercise their treaty rights to spearfish in northern wisconsin they were met by protesters at the boat landings throwing rocks spitting on women and children planting pipe bombs at the boat landing we're happy to report that twenty five years later the issue is not about who has the right to take what fish where at what time of year and with what method we have come together as governments as communities to figure out how to keep fish there for everyone and so as the committee looks at this bill and how tribes might fit in that is a lesson that we would offer to the committee that when you get the people together it's not about what how the commuter different is how they are alike when justice sandra day o'connor asked one of the tribes attorneys in a case that came before the supreme court involving these treaty rights so tell me mr solomon why is it that the tribes cannot engage in their life ways and under the state system of regulation and management here in the state of minnesota the answer was very simple and it was very down the earth your honor babies are not born morning during the state fishing season people do not die during the state hunting season there is a life long cycle of events that the tribal communities rely upon these resources to help commemorate in their own way they need these resources to do things that are consistent with the very purpose for which those treaties were entered into and so there is a role that tribes need to play at the table that there is no other government that is in a position to do that for them it is only the tribes that can and should be there to do that for themselves is a great honor and privilege to be here today to help the committee think through how tribes fit in and i would be happy to answer you answer any question thank you very much thank you very much let me begin with that mr campbell the so my question to you is i would ask you to elaborate on why you are opposed to cod bidding is because money might be left on the table so what happens during an oral auction is you do a significant amount of analysis before the building you go in and i believe my experience has been having formally participated in many years ago on shore was that you get a fair representation at the table of those betters who have done the analysis and can come up with what the value is for what they perceive the value to be for the property let me ask you one further question and it's not a matter that's addressed in the be all but do you see any benefit in conducting lease sales via the internet you know they just started doing those and going to have to reserve my response until i  see how successful they are there is from a personal standpoint i will tell you there's something to be said of sitting there looking at the guy across from it is betting against you  five thousand dollars in twenty maybe it was over two hundred twenty five thousand dollars so it appears that our public lands are been drastically undervalued right now all gas geothermal and offshore wind all have competitive least process es so it certainly can or you claim there is little competitive interest in many federal areas but if that's the case it would appear the bids would not go very high how can you argue that a competitive process allows the market to find a proper value for the want of those lands is not in the best interest of american taxpayer well the first thing i'll point out is that i think on the wind projects where there m did use a competitive process none of the projects were actually ever constructed which does not then yield the benefit that everybody is looking for relative to the current market conditions the current lease rate that the b l m has you using for for wind projects is approximately five percent which is very close to the the rate that would be received on private lan bidding and auction process may push that rate up it may push that rate down i think the more likely it would be that it would push it down given the amount of time that it takes to develop on government lands and specifically we do see this headed in the direction of an option but we think that the better effort in the near term would be to work on fixing the processes that the that would speed up the development of sites on government lands before instituting the auction process thank you mr zorn let me ask you are the great lakes states a great lakes state able to unilaterally manage the great lakes without consulting and coordinating with your organization and or your member drives knows they're not the situations especially for tribal reservation tribes have a significant amount of control over their internal affairs and so as you at least look at the map the great lakes there's significant reservations there bordering on the great lakes in the basin where clearly if other governments want to try to accomplish something with the tribes you have to work with them and in the authorization context where these treaty rights apply as we just found out for example with the wind power issue in wisconsin the wisconsin public service commission was commissioned to look at how if or how the wind power could be developed in the great lakes and it was concluded that because  the states really needed to consult with the tribes and so the state management authority exists but it certainly is not unfettered and there is that requirement that they need to integrate tribes into the process as your gazeta have written management agreements with any of the great lakes states or canada oh great lakes after there's tons of agreements you have the strategic great lakes right fishery management plan you have under the auspices of the great lakes water quality agreement united states and canada the binational program to restore and protect a lake superior you have consent decrees between states tri thank you mr chairman the let me just get out for questions in and since we may not have time to answer these questions i would appreciate if you would submit comments for the record later unless you can make some brief comments now but i'm concerned  have unemployment of almost ten percent so we've got many millions unemployed and some people say we've got an under employment problem that's even worse with many college graduates working at very low paying jobs and i'm my first question would be will this bill drive up energy costs and and make it more difficult for poor and lower income and working people to pay their utility bills and their other energy costs secondly will this bill give even greater advantages to foreign energy producers mr stover testified that we use are consumed fifty six million pounds of uranium each year in this country yet we only produce four and a half million pounds so i'm not i'm a little bit concerned that this bill will really only help foreign energy producers who are already making a killing off of this in the first place thirdly i understand from staff that it takes an average run now of ten years from the beginning of the leasing process to actual drilling that's what i was told yesterday by staff will this bill speed up that process or delay it further i'm concerned that it may delay it further and fourthly in every highly regulated industry it seems to end up in the hands of a few big giants because first the little guys go out are forced are they're forced to merge and then the medium size companies go out are forced to merge and i'm wondering will this bill make it more or less difficult for small businesses to survive in the industries in the industries affected by this bill i'm a little bit afraid that it's going to make it more difficult for the small guys for the little guys in the businesses and it's going to play into the hands of the big do any of you have any comments you wish to make about the either one of those four questions if i may alex just like every other business and i have to answer to them as to cost to give you an example where we have a high cost for natural gas commodity last year we had a net profit of twenty cents per m c f this year my projections are looking we have a net loss of over three dollars we had a twenty percent staff reduction we are trying to be as economical as possible we have had to curtail our drilling efforts there's a significant impact to the community  the socio economic impact is is dramatic when you see the number of people that are number of people are out of jobs and the impact it has on the tax base from a regulatory standpoint as far as leasing you're absolutely correct there's a host of things that have go out secure the funds ranching operation you have to have the money to go out and develop the properties and then produce the properties i've got a specific property that i started it's called my rock house area it's a  their current legit current litigation september two thousand and nine i've got over in this particular area i have about thirty million dollars invested and i still am not able to finish drilling the project as i prescribe my so the answer your question is yes by adding one more layer of regulatory oversight especially if it's removed from the area that immediately is best able to manage it you will see an impact in the timing side implications no matter where you live as far as the energy needs of our country mr zorn i was touched by your comment saying about the tribes in on the table i recall a saying if you're not at the table you're going to be on the menu and i think our tribes have been too long too often being on the menu and have never been given proper treatment from the federal government as far as i'm concerned and i  wanted to ask you what do you think of the possibility of including a provision in this proposed bill stablished some kind of an advisory council compose a representative i'm trying i know that there's a council of energy resources trying i believe in colorado composed of about thirty tribes that have energy related resources just as good as the mining other mining companies and i was when he was your eleven tribes what do you think of the possibility possible opinion and judgment on how to better deal with our indian tribes and what we find there is that the resistance to get tribes in the door changed to the welcoming because what you find is tribes offer expertise that others may not have and you soon find that some of our scientists some of our experts leaders and i like to have just over to help and certainly see that my or the experience that you have certain dealing with uranium mining operations and i go back to what i said earlier about what we did to the indian navajo reservation and their lands that contain uranium disgraceful as far as i'm concerned how we dealt with his indian tribe and i suspect that other that your company is canadian old that's great because this is what we're doing right now canada is currently doing exploration is a natural gas one is waterways and then they turn around and sell it to the united reason that it can the mining companies themselves when we're in those areas have tempted particularly in the in the last few years as the industry's undergone a resurgence we're very much interested in opening dialogues with the native americans and trying to work with them not only to do what we can to assist in resolving these legacy issues but also help create new economic wind turbines actually begin to operate relative to the intermittency of the wind resource we see that wind has to be part of the picture complemented certainly by natural gas and other resources that you add to the grid to to be able to ensure that you can provide service to people when they turn the switch on to turn the light bulb on and so  and mr campbell i've been told that in two thousand and one partially twenty percent of leases were protested in that last year one hundred percent of all lease sales were protested is this accurate and if so the leases were in fact protest and it it impacts dramatically because it adds one more risk component to an otherwise very risky endeavor which is drilling for natural gas not always sure it's going to be there you don't always know that once you buy a lease and you have to pay for it if the lease is going to issue you end up in for example this i've got one lease it's been tied up now for over four years in litigation i've got two others that are in a similar circumstance those are even though they sound like small incremental adjustments certain of those adjustments are doubling almost from my perspective and they impact my bottom line dramatically if i have to make a choice between an investment on a public property or a private property depending on the fees it made in a different direction the o and gas industry is often criticised for not deliberately developing on federal e plenty of leases i can speak to my own database of proximate ninety thousand acres that we hold that are public lands seventy five percent of those are producing twenty five percent remaining  which would be developed or in the process of being explored but for the regulatory process i spoke of impeding the from continuing to move forward to drill those lands so i have i'm not sure where they get that data i can only speak tried to explain in my testimony when you are able to acquire a lease several things have to happen you have to do the geologic geophysical analysis to determine where best to drill that takes time that also takes money that's another component you have to raise the funds necessary to finance this very expensive operation the typical well for me in utah will run anywhere from three to four million dollars that includes buying the lease drilling the well completing the well and connected to a pipeline litigation plays a significant role in how we analyze our risk when we go to develop properties if i've got a lease of the potential for litigation then i may not make that investment in the lease in the next two phases as far as the drilling the physical assessment and the drilling because i don't know what the probability is of the outcome of the litigation let me add to that i think sometimes we confuse quantities or i'm sorry let me just say i'm going to submit some questions for the records but i want you know the first gentleman whose name i couldn't pronounce even if i could see it from there i do want to know how you talked about the consolidation in this new office would retired new about development of  renewable energies i'd like specifically that address in a written form if i could same thing from mr morris you talked about the regional council as being a redundancy and could i'd like that kind of a sponsor mr campbell i notice yesterday secretary salazar said that the leases seventy seven controversy leases in utah were moved because they were close to close or jason was actually there where he said to national parks i understand you had four of those leases that were cancelled and i believe if i'm correct your leases are over eighty miles away from that mark i'd like to have those i will also ask you specifically to comment on categorical exclusions and how the business community views those as why they are there and if that is indeed an end run around environmental analysis or not and we've got to cut it off right there those will be coming thank you sir thank you mr chairman thank you i too will submit my questions and ask you to respond in writing dr stover i would just like to welcome you as a fellow wyoming to the committee and ask you if you wouldn't mind in writing to explain what regulatory framework currently overse uranium mining to ensure environmentally sound production occurs i asked a witness on the last panel to explain what incentives the bill provides for uranium exploration in the united states i'd love to have you take a stab at that question and answer it in writing if you would be so kind mr morris would you be willing to submit in writing a little response to an assertion that was made earlier the bill supports an assumption that categorical exclusions are utilized by land management agencies to allow for the circumvention of need requirements by our oil and gas producers so i'm interested in your reaction to that that assertion and mr madison's q yes you expressed concerns in your testimony with several provisions of the legislation i'd like to know if you would agree that if the bill were enacted as currently drafted it would put at risk the progress that has been made toward expanding the leasing and development of renewable resources in america thank you and and i know that mr malays can never pronounce his name either he has left but i share some of his concerns away about the way that indians are treated differently from non indians within the department of the interior with regard to mineral valu rules and so all visit with him if the bill moves to markup i'd like to work with him to try and co sponsor something that says unless the indians exempt themselves that mineral valuations between non indian and indian mineral us will be the same because the indians had to fight for like fifteen years to get their mineral valuation rules to conform to non indian rules in the non indian rules were better for the government and they should have the same advantages for tribal government that naani indians have for their government so thank you mr chairman thank you gentlemen we appreciate your time and patience with us today and thank you for your testimony committee stan