welcome everyone to the planning commission meeting this evening we are going to be doing some additional discussion on our own amendments related to the essex town center so those e t c next which is our fun and exciting  area and this is stretching my eyesight ok great so thank the commission for the time tonight obviously this is the second of fourteen meetings i think we'll be having over the course of this process i thought would be good today to spend a little bit of time recapping some of the last meetings discussion and no i know staff has done a little bit of the work to sort consolidate  it each meeting is is maybe touch a little bit on what happened the last one and now i see the focus of today's discussion is things like setbacks something setbacks brundage is what covered those are the three big things we want to talk about today of digest all of what's been said consolidated into some narrative form that you guys can take and that will also help to track make sure we're getting the input for you accurately and we can  going to be constructive towards building the ultimate so with respect to that we've spoken last time the commission and i don't want to lose the focus of this planning meeting i don't want to lose the focus of what we schedule for so the bike rack and everything the bike rack and several parking lot the bike rack is secondary on this meeting we can go over it yeah that's fine but i don't want to unless the commission look we get something people want to dig into great but i'd like to make sure that we keep the focus for what we scheduled for and then fill in afterwards if we need to get into the weeds could we talked about with the bike rack items those we would maybe they may be resolved further in or we need to do is a separate in depth discussion on them as we go on so you just keep in mind that you don't want to lose the the nightly scope yeah that's true and we then that's one reason we specifically structured these meetings to around those topical areas i think the only thing i was think about reserve the recap was just to make sure that we can kind of bridge each of these issues because one of the things you'll see as we go  here is that all of the issues that at the end of it combined together so we've broken all these pieces out to separate discussions but they're all internally as i go through discussion today you'll see we're going to start talking about like form of structures as relates to setbacks there they're almost inextricable at the end of this thing so there will be i think a little bit of of connecting tissue between each of these meetings that's really important to talk about and on that front what i wanted to make sure you know we sort of think about from the last meeting is i think there was general concurrence that we heard from the planning commission about this idea that there are these distinct districts that they will have some individual characteristics that are important to correct to capture so  tonight's discussion will be relevant to that there are some districts within the neighborhoods that were defined in the draft e t c plan that are going to have higher density and more and more  contemporary or urban sort of look and feel and so that obviously reflect and somehow the way the frontage is are dealt with and how the setback to that with so i don't want to get into the weeds as you said and there's a there's a number of items on the bike rack that are going to need to be addressed eventually but from a big picture perspective and for the benefit of the of the audience this idea that the e t c next master plan will inform the development of some new districts is kind of the big takeaway takeaway so just by you then obviously well i want to go through some definitions i've pulled some definitions out of your current zoning regulations because i think it's good to know kind of where we're starting from and how that might be co opted as we were likely to do  you have a lot of good things to work with in the current zoning or and where there may be some needs to tweak the language so that it matches up with the needs for the the form base code approach i want to spend a fair amount of time talking about the transects and we introduced that i that setbacks specifically concepts around that and then the last but not least lot coverage and one thing the planning commission on is to make sure that we're we've got a plan of attack to deal with the fact that in some cases we're dealing with them actually in most cases in the you can see it's not greenland it's there's already existing things there so you know we want to be careful about making huge dimensional changes that would make non conformity a problem so that's that's something we want to walk in general jump in if i say something stupid or or when she feels it's appropriate density across the spectrum and it goes to cross a spectrum of organizational structures complexity of design and again density so it helps us understand so you get rural you can get a rural part of the transect you get a very urban part of the transaction and what we actually see in the e t c is is actually a fairly wide spectrum it's not all over the whole thing is not the mixed use commercial or there is the historic district there is the rural r residential recreation area we talked about which has a little different pattern of development now and likely in the future so you know we have a we have a cross section of the of the of the transect within the d c diagram might help you know we're going to diagram i think it will help you but i think generally what it's trying to do is paint the picture that within it within a place you know you'll have areas of lower density owner as hard as it and there should be some transition through that some continuous element some continuity between that so there's not these really stark and dramatic changes in my house and maybe i'll just quickly add that you know in in the master plan we did suggest doing a hybrid cobra which was a  combination of the current zoning and form based there's different types of form base codes two we can talk about but the transect come down of the form base code and of that yeah and and that's that's what's why i think it is helpful for discussion  also in the current zoning regulations you define frontage laughton again this is not something that's you dealt with this other instances presumably it's the horizontal it's the horrible doesn't measure along the poverty line that separates the lot from a public or private street so it's basically the the distance the horrors on distance on the front edge of a lot as relates to a public street and that is something as we'll see later on consistent with how form that frontage is but there's another dimension of that actually relates into the concept the relationship between the building or the structure of the use and the public stream and that's a really important concept that again in terms of a in terms of both the four base code aspects of what we're doing but also to achieve terms are used but it it's the equivalent of your front yard area now as you define it as mark noted under four base code you take a lot harder look at what's in that that set back or yard area in the front where the everything kind of comes together you know within the form base co you don't find specific building forms that fit within a specific district right so the those different forms will have to relate to the front pages we establish those minimum maxims that sharon was talking about you couldn't propose a form that didn't fit into those parameters that's where there's a there's an interaction between these dimensional requirements suggestions and then the forms that support them so that's why we're doing this first so we can have a conversation with you because what the evan would pick out which forms actually makes some sense to go in his district we can make sure attest that they actually can work that's really the key thing setback again this is the this is the distance from the produce of the corporate right of way  to delineate features basically this obviously code something very familiar with you get your front step back get side step back to get receptive x as sharon said and you already have in code some portions your code you know you can look at minimum setbacks you can look at maximum setbacks and we'll talk about that is today in terms of it's that one of the ranges that are appropriate relative that one big thing that i think is important to recognize is that as we get into some of the more denser mor e urban districts there probably will be some pressure and urgency of the outcome to produce setbacks oftentimes in the most urban districts there's virtually no side yard setback zero now we don't you know at this point don't know how it's going to apply globally within the a t c and i can argue that we're not going to have the same setbacks across all of the districts within the d c but in general i think that you're going to be you know one of things that will be important to think about as this process moves forward is is setbacks are going to get less or more there's a suggestion set back to get smaller in general because the idea is you want to increase the density you want to allow for higher densities than are typically allowed right now  coverage you know you basically that is the area of a lot measures where if either is covered by buildings excess restructures parking areas walkways drag trails paths all the stuff you do and it's measured as a percentage so we've got some things within lot coverage that are going to need to be thought about and that is again as we move into the more dense types of districts the a lot coverages allowances become larger at the teeth the five we call trans the five level you can get the eighty eight percent block coverage and those are generally minimums because the idea is that when you get to that level of density you should be you should be trying to maximize the law and so the setbacks would need to be really small to be able to accommodate that  the forms that would be allowed need to be flexible enough to accommodate that you could allow a single family form in a district where you're trying to get ninety percent lot coverage you'd have some really crazy single family homes so the idea is is that the you know again terms of parameters for a t c next are going to be looking at maybe the want her he has to go up a little bit than what you're been custom to in some of the existing districts to make this vision a possibility but we'll talk also this consequence of that and that's and that's related to storm water you need nuff room on the property to handle storm water you have a t c is not without constraints there's land within the highly constrained so there may be some challenges to achieving the ideals of some of those densities so we need to talk about that especially without shared infrastructure right so this is this is the transact and i sort of walking from and six urban core zone so for the purposes of our conversation with essex you can take this off the table this is new york city and downtown has a square yeah that's been had but you you know the rest in if you look more broadly in the entire town you've got all of these sort of in play in general what you do is you move from left to right this is lower density this is hired as in it's obviously indicative of the forms it's there  it's also of a less grid oriented pattern of roads and more grid oriented pattern roads and that's again that's a very consistent thing throughout the transect you want to see as you get more dense you want to see a pattern how you define frontage requirements can be a lot less rate regimented but when you get to more urban forms it's really important to define how buildings relate to the street so that the both they both in terms take take advantage of the pattern of developing a tragedy but also create usable spaces outside of the building envelope if you don't tell if you don't tell folks what you expect you won't get a pattern that you want that's basically the bottom line there  setbacks again generally speaking there's the there's larger setbacks you have more spaces between properties this is much more of your typical pierre de plan residential development patterns you see but as you get into the more dense forms the setbacks become smaller and everything becomes a little more compact so there's a in curve increasing level or sorry yeah there's an increasing level of of or decreasing level of setback requirements so you can achieve some of the patterns you're trying to achieve how i'll just quickly add that again this comes out of the form base code this is pretty standard to all different types of foreign based codes we forded some examples of what's called the smart code that's been around for since the  ninety s and it's an open source code so a lot of people have pitched in on working on that over the years and it actually has become what i would consider a hybrid code from the form based code side so i think it's somewhat rags yeah it's brits a pretty diocese it's a pretty well organized structure model and i think it does have a lot of as sharon said i agree there is a lot of value because they've they've they've tended to sort of soften it with sort of contemporaries only traditional zoning issues and approaches so it doesn't have the sort of the rigor at that they do but one of the big things that a traditional form is code needs is a regulating plan and that's a very can and you can achieve a lot of the objectives that you want to try to achieve through the master plan by setting these zones up so that they they they champion these different types of transects and that's one thing i think this market is really  it's really consistent very grid oriented more dense more focused on on the public frontage is and the relationship between building the and the public realm as we talk about much more focus on  fill and some expansion maybe that's possible but essentially you have you have a lot less dense a lot more single family homes a lot more search for additional pattern of development that's that's a lot of what the suburb in zone looks like and then you know for a portion of the t c that transition area that we've actually been you know work in the neighbor commercial it's a little bit of this i think some of the infill that would be developed in that transition zone along route fifteen and sort of land beyond would probably fall well into this sort of pattern where it's going to be smaller lots generally speaking probably a mix of different types of uses but large not less big uses but a stronger grid orientation this is  and that would largely fill you know this sort of general urban zome it does this doesn't you know this getting a look at the pattern that shown here there are there are primary streets in secular shoots or sometimes there's even alleys and there are things that actually help to create a stronger sense of connectivity if you remember the draft plan talks a lot about the need you know in that in that neighborhood to create better connections and has better connections both along fifteen but also to the interior of that part of those i would recommend no my it will indeed especially dealing with hybrid codes i strongly suggest sticking with the terms that your use yes but maybe redefining them or modifying them a bit to fit into more of a form base presentation i'm not saying for base code i'm just know how to utilize because obviously you know we're not talking about a linear layout of the oh this is so how would we take this sort of concept yeah it yeah that is important here remember we actually you know you may recall when we were putting together the draft master plan you know we were cognizant of the of the trajectory that this project was going and we knew that the purpose of the project was to phase one was to actually inform this phase so in in determining you know when they i was listening to the public and hearing what the public had to say and trying to figure out how that might advance draft masterplan we've actually made some connections between this transect approach and kind of the design in the plan that's been established by group we don't need to use these terms in terms of your code because i think that's that would be just confusing it be more approachable if you call them what you think you want to call them to define them but it does really put more emphasis on form as mark said yeah and so that's another thing that's really important in this sort of the you look at process transected it's you know architecture starts to really dominate as you get into the t four d five transect and obviously that's the same situation in the master plan if you look at the master plan these these districts these neighborhoods is the architecture that it is going to define those are the characteristics of those neighborhoods it's not it's not the land outside of the architecture and so if you look at these patterns of development this is dominated by the structure of the forms that actually replace they're at but how they're placed matters if the that if there's a consistency to them that really does reflect the intention and i think that's one of things as we you know as we started the master playing process we really heard strongly from the community is that what's been lacking now has been  sort of a layered consistency applied over portions of the t c to allow him to develop together instead of once he to see being done and not being connected together not feeling like they're integrated in some way this is the integration that you're sort of seeking ok so with that in mind you know one one of the things you want talk a little bit about is frontage and so at the at the basic level of citizens of this is a lot you know the primary street and the secondary street and primary streets and secondary streets and you have a lot that's there and you have obviously you've got the watt line itself and you've got the frontage line and so in this case this is a corner lot that's actually got carnage on a primary street and a secondary street and you also have the facades now these are important because as you saw in the in the master plan what i think we talk about is the fact that these it's not just it's not just the spatial relationship with a with a lot or or the the position of the structure as a release a setback it's also what do you do architectural e to these sides of the building that relate to the streets so there's a distinction is made code between the facade of a structure these are the outward facing elevations of a building as they relate to the public spaces that are outside of it versus the traditional elevations which is number four which is basically the size  building that point to each other and this is a different this is something that you don't regulate that's struggling right now although it's not new under your regulations even under your definition of right you have a definition  d in a very limited sense under the mixed use commercial me she's developing commercial district again that really tight red zone you do actually define setbacks differently on main street and other str as defined in the former master plan and so this takes out a little bit when you are one step further one step further and you'll see as we get into the building discussion and later that will matter because you know what you actually want to see happen for these buildings as they relate to these different ages is is also going to be reflected in the forms that you allow to have happen i mean  yeah and you guys correct me if i'm wrong because i just looked some of this stuff up today but the current regulations i mean they're pretty conventional and they did find a facade in the front facade along any public street they don't there is the only distinction between the type of street is in that one district otherwise you know any streets consider a primary street differentiation at that level and there's again there's not a lot of discussion about how that area that front yard area and the front building is is treated except for that you should have your entrances facing the street that is in your regs now but but those are those are the kinds of considerations you get into those that will be really important is that you know you're defining what does it mean to actually have a front sat back or front edge on a primary street that's really critical it's not just again it's not just the the dimensional parts as are important but it's also about what you actually allow or disallow and then i'll get in that in a second about the different types of front it is that exist the other thing i want to make sure we really don't forget is that again to charity point there's a lot of there's a lot already in your existing code as are deals with these sort of dimensional in relationship issues but one of the things i think that would be strengthened by adopting as we move through adopting more hybrid code would be defining for primary street and secondary street more strongly so that there is a distinction between them and that instead that distinction is important because you only have so much really again when you start to require different things to happen on a primary street you know the building needs to relate to the street so it may need to put in the outer plaza so that it feels like it's connected street it's important from the developers perspective to know where those where poor primary streets are so they can allocate the resources to do that if it's not clear on their fixed spec to put you know on the plazas everywhere you're going to get a lot of pushback so it also comes back to achieving sort of your desired outcome you know you store some streets in there that would be primary and you want to make sure that those have a distinctive character and that the buildings relate to those very strongly so that there's a sense of place and organization but there are also some side streets someplace new shoots that could be created we've explored that the master plan they don't need to have the same level of accommodation they need to be some minimum accommodation is sharon said they should relate to the street but it may not be exactly the same a primary street so that distinction between a primary and secondary i in my opinion is really important you know you can do that by naming names but it will get as we get industries you also can define specific types of streets street types that certain type certain types of streets actually are going to be farmer that's the way they are they vary by with they also vary by you know the types of use what accommodations are provided on them all sorts of the factors but yes you do we need to we need to get to a point where we can be very clearly articulated what we think where we think a priority should be and where public you should be i mean to all these things in a relate but i think just to be focused just on french for a second what we want to make sure was we we understand that the demands of frontage are or dimensional and then they are also architectural eventually there's so one of the concepts with informers code that i think is and this is in the smart code you can look at it more detail i just grabbed an excerpt of it which i thought was helpful but this idea of public and private front is so in this plan and this graphic and this is a graphic from the plant so it's very there's are a lot of consistency and i'm going to ignore the differences of the buildings just for a second but just in general is showing is a cross section from the building to the street this line right here right here through is the is the public right is the right away line that's the property line so on this side of that line is public on this side of that line is private and what you see here in those cities these relate to those they're talking about is that there's obviously this they're all showed the exact same size but what's happening here is that the this is relation to setbacks so there's a reduction or a dick increase in the sat back off of on this these districts and you get to the more dense districts there's a lot less but the most most important thing in all of the districts these structures relate to is some there's not a complete detachment between the building and the structure of the use and the street the public street now what's happening on the street could be very different i mean this is showing actually a sidewalk with a tree that's in the public realm it could be a situation where there's you know there may be i mean be a sidewalk in some cases that's not ideal but that's possible but as you get into the more dense district what you start to see is is there are improvements within the frontage private sector improvements on the law that's being developed that enhance the connectivity of that structure to the street so in this case you've got a little port you know that will pop out or plaza a walkway this is a lot more detail plaza this is a four core which brings the plaza in towards the building so all of these buildings are relating in some way all the structures relating in some way to the street stuff the parking will go in the back so you have this nice green thing in it you're actually right and then filter and they get a lot of the infill that we're going to see is there is there is rail parking out front and unless that lottery develops there's not much we can do about that that's the way it is today however if you guys developed you know if you good up to code that says parking must be on the side of the rear and obvious that it is which it's already supportive of that today but if you drop that with more more clarity around that then when that lottery develops the developers are going to be you know the developers architects are going to have to adjust the plan to achieve that you know front yard let's put it this way parking within the front yard frontage should not be  yeah i mean just in general i mean it's just that in some cases not even in the side yard in some cases not even the zuyder you know so you're right though to bring up parking because that affects the whole pattern of development so we need to also look at parking standards so if you think about again these are surrogates for the district we've got it's not a one size fits all frontage relationship that the relationships are frontage within the rural residents residential recreation district should be different then within the mixed use north district for example one thing is really important again this is a you know getting the big big sea change as it as it relates to i think essex build out is is that you are starting to define with much more clarity what you expect the private land response to frontage to be that's a big deal you know that's that's not just you have to provide us fifty feet and then you can do what you want it's you need to provide us you know fifteen feet but within that fifteen feet we expect some things to have this building relate to the public street that's a really big slick something you don't you know that again there's some some elements of that existing within the code but this would be taking that to kind of the next level q it also raises a question and there's already ongoing discussions you know with dennis and stuff about public street you know what is a public street and how much of that infrastructure is actually what you're talking about is is that there are things that have been in the public right of way in the public realm this is the public realm on this side of that line that also have streetscape function so give example right now we're doing the  responsible for this and some of this but mostly this right so they're responsible for making that building really to the streets it's on the city is responsible if money they're using to do primary streets and you're going to start to find designs that make achieve the objectives you want to have for those streets some of the public part of this has to be worked out too it's not all on the developer to sort of  if they can't respond to a street that doesn't exist in the form that it should be existing at so there is of there is an interplay that has to go on that you know now in some cases developers do pay for some of the improvements in the public realm and that's that's certainly a possibility in some cases but in some cases it's a shared responsibility something news it's a shared responsibility where some infrastructure is put in and the developer pays for some of those improvements that go along with it so there's some to be thinking about as we as we get through is we continue this process is that and that's why i think it is important to look at both the public and the private side of this is because essex needs to know what it's willing to commit to some of these types of improvements if you're not willing to commit as we get to the street types to some some streetscape accommodation for pedestrians or enhancements related to those sorts of things then we need to make sure we have the language right to make sure the developers know what they're on the hook for so that they can they can provide their contribution they're fighting this is a front yard setback again back to the idea that this is a facade that's a facade these buildings need to redistrict this building needs to relate to the streets on them one of the things again as we look at the sort of the pattern that the former is code might suggest for essex is the idea that you know these setbacks relate to different things so again these front yard setbacks relate to public realm issues out the the the public at large the rear yards carry late to things like alleyways or different street types that don't necessarily have a large degree of public accommodation bikepath common land that kind of thing these sites set backs are where buildings relate to other buildings and so one of the things that will have to work with you guys on is is recognizing that again is as if there's a pressure to reduce the side yard setbacks to make buildings get a little bit closer again there are consequences that the earth fire code that has to be maintained so there are limitations potentially would make national commercial structures than what that would preclude us to getting as close together as you might want without having designed them to be closer together and his you were dealing with existing battery nevada development already present some buildings are not going to be designed to allow us to get too much closer to them so that's a better consideration in the diagram depicts so it's very conventional search suburban development pattern ye actually with regard to side setbacks everybody is isolated on lot has their yard area that surrounds it but you know as marty noted when you get into the t forty five areas it's typically the side setbacks it get much smaller disappear completely because you're talking about different forms of buildings you know larger mixed use commercial buildings row houses or town houses that you know butt up against each other right just to achieve the densities that you want in those areas it's typically the side setbacks that go away these are these the ones that actually reduce significantly and if you look at i think about the different neighborhoods the t c in terms of the mixed use north makes you south this is where the probably the most bit mixed use north mix you know there's basically greenfield development there's virtually nothing there so there's a really good opportunity to set fairly small side yard setbacks in that district zork yeah unfortunately you already have a ladder truck because that's the train is in the building is also an issue at that point the good news though from a developers perspective i think a one of the things that you know if you look at if you look again when they when they understand this and can work through this is that this is giving them back real estate i mean right now side yard setback for the most part is not you know it's a wasted space specially when you get the forms as we talk about later but you know certain types of housing forms frontage perspective but you're you're reducing the side yard setback significantly allowing them to build these buildings out closer to the side to the side yard giving them some opportunity to sell their rules it also though will get to this  another meeting i think but when you take away yard way areas especially for residential it makes those common parks or civic spaces that much more important right so that you still have public space but it's in a different form right so you have a playground down the street if you can play in your side yard or backyard you've got a place you can walk to and that's one of the big that's one of the big things as you sort of walk through all this is that as we as we try to densify certain parts of the d c you know some of th undermines the ability to achieve the pattern that you actually really want to try to change it because you know we don't want to get as we you know we don't want large side yard setbacks that don't provide any valuable contribution to the overall pattern whereas a park if you took out this whole lot made a park out of it and all those buildings related to it that would be a more functional open space sure yeah yeah and so again that could be that could be a requirement in the front yard you know i mean in the plaza for example is a is a potentially good open space use in a more dense neighborhood because that's a functional outdoor space it just happens to be paved with benches and that's that you know that's we'll get into that we have to hold meetings as i've broken space because that's important part of this is that is that by doing some of these dimensional changes and sort of and see again some of these dimensions changes as sharon pointed out how you look at open space previously changes because we don't want this to be we don't want people using the leftover pieces of these lands as  unfunctional open space that doesn't actually have any value to people and that's the big thing as you go from the more rural transects to the more urban transects is it becomes not just about what happens in the slot it becomes about how this law affects everybody around it and it's more of a community you know issue becomes more the block or the neighborhood yeah yeah right well i'm typically that's because i mean they they definitely relate as mark said but your fire codes are usually separate from your son in codes and part of updating your zoning is to make sure that you can accommodate that in your fire code  began this is this will be a question as we get further along but you know look the question is whether or not you have a a minimum setback or maximum setback and that's a big difference so you know the minimum in this case and are range and a lot of times there are ranges and actually at the end those are talk about some of those ranges because some flexibility i think at the end today will be very useful because we are going to be working around existing stuff i mean and that's it for the forseeable future you're going to have existing uses that need to be accommodated did it too so we got to be careful about setting such very prescriptive setback requirements of fresh requirements that you can that will start to make it and not fed up with other example of this is that you know this is the what's the buildings here are not static relating to the street what is what is important though is that these buildings connect in some meaningful way to destry things so providing some flexibility  flexibility can also conform to the types of the also relate to the types of forms that are allowed right in each of the communities as mark said it's basically defining a range right now most of this just to find minimum it's defining birth a minimum and  maximum right right so is needed for example like you did you know using this a graphic example if this if we were in a mixed use north district this would be a mistake even if you know this would be the outlier now there is a range because  existing uses that are set back from the streets and certain range with and the good news is we did the next first phase e t c next we actually flew to the entire area with a drone so we can actually calculate within about a centimeter the sepik current setbacks of buildings from the public rightly so we get will be using that information test as we come back with this you know what's the right ranges that might need to be provide to the ground they could be grandfather right but more importantly i think in terms of this is that there's this notion that you know we we are but i want to have a think of a range that sort of allows for some of that  established but in general though the range is on the side setback will become less and the more dense districts so that they can bring things together and at the rate they even in the rear setbacks they may be starting to get a little bit less too depending on how things shake out but it's this is the area where there's going to be the real with the pressure to to to allow things to come together and the consequence of that as you pointed out are going to be architectural response to that master plan dr master plan so again this is the primary streets here there is a secondary street here and a secondary street there and it just basically trying to show you that it's everything's not exactly there in there's a little bit of right to this but there is this relationship between the buildings and the buildings have different forms and they relate to these front side your setbacks and that's really critical the other thing that the planet  and if you imagine a building here was this idea of the build to zones and this is kind of that envelope within which we're talking of the minimum maximum in the loop but this is the envelope within which you expect the building to be placed so what's actually happening here is this blue line goes out to the edge of the primary building face right some some distance there's a secondary built to zone which actually goes from the public right of way to the porch you can get very you can get very specific if you want to to define built two lines so that it actually forces buildings to design themselves around those relationships now i'm not suggesting that that's necessary it may not be but you  built to mine currently under your ranks you exempt some things from setbacks and you know entry stairs and things so that's one option but as mark said typically more often you look at that zone the setback range the maximum or how to redefine it and what's happening in there including what the architectural features that kilgore were in that area so if you want to encourage or require a much more articulated building you can you can define this these building built two lines to help encourage that to help actually to force it to happen now you know there's been some there are some for makes code examples that have very specific you know every purpose of places are introduced the idea that there may be some value in establishing is this envelope and defining the the architecture of fighting the relationship between that envelope and the forms that go building it's one plane it's a long continuous plane and that's something that between the combination looking at the setbacks the finding good bill to limits and coding you know bringing out forms that actually support those things you can and you can steer that in a different direction and i think that's the question that i think that the planning commission should be thinking about as we go for the wrong is how much do you want to steer that market like to  jeffery you know you have it for a little bit before we think so talk a little bit about a lot of coverage so again with if you look at if you look at the traditional four base code numbers  sick you're still looking at very high lot coverages and this is a very big get this is a big sea change is a lot of committees have a hard time sort of building their minds around because you look at things like a lot covered as the way to make sure develop and doesn't get so you know out a hand some cases it's a way of controlling the pattern so that it doesn't feel overwhelming and that makes a lot of sense and a lot of places but when you've gotten to the point of defining a district affect our ability i think in the e t c to get anywhere close to these things are the strong water management piece so you need space outside of the structures in a you know urban environment you have storm water handle that makes it really hard to get to these higher numbers so i think what are they going to calibrate for essex is one of the numbers that actually makes sense relative to what you can achieve within the t c and we don't know those are yeah but my what minimum is we should have but i think it would be useful as we test it to try to get the highest minimum we can get because that's that is one of the things that you get if you look at the read from regulation regulatory perspective if somebody comes in with a plan that doesn't meet the minimum lot covers there that means they are purposefully or willfully undervalue under developing that law and again i think in certain districts or neighborhoods within the d c that it that may be a real problem because it's fine to imagine ok that just happens this one time but of all of a sudden that's consistently happening then you can look back after about a decade ago none of them achieve the density none of them change the law covers that was achieved that was necessary and the whole thing falls apart so i think that's one of those one of these really important dimension dimensional considerations i think is to be thoughtful and i think the idea putting a minimum in there that is responsive to the the pressure that we know we're going to have relative to storm water management but not so so low that it doesn't help you advance and so there's a there's a number there that we don't know yet that we'll have to come up with but i think it's going to be it's going to be hard to get to read but we need to get to them and you also currently distinguish between building a lot coverage and you know a lot of the l coverage and in a suburban environment big parking lots right when you get into the higher density areas that leon becomes a lot more valuable for building this break yet you have to deal with your parking so it means you've well they that this isn't necessarily technological shift is whether a six you know again public investment in developing a strong water management infrastructure within the e t c that's that's possible today now it's not you know it's going to cost a lot of money to do that there have been there have been improvements for sure but i think one of the things that the again the z t e t c and paul leary could speak to this probably more specifically but one of the things that actually has helped the even if you look at the mix you south for example it has more of an integrated storm water management system generally speaking portions of doing so the more that that system can be maintained preserved to minimize the need for infill to actually develop their own facilities that's a good thing so i think there is some there are some could you have some capacities now without huge public investments to sort of address some of those things  but mixtures north for example where there is no infrastructure today you know i think that's one of the things that you would want to look at is as that develops is to make sure that the planning commission staff says you know letting the helpers know that the expectations as  appropriately for the maximum build out now so that you don't you find yourself building three or four ponds when one could have sufficed and that's the that's the hope is that the least you're elevating the discussion as by saying those minimums and a high enough organizational structures is that they do make it possible for developers to achieve higher densities because that issue is now looked at as not a lot by a lot by law issue it's looked at as a neighborhood community  be like you know they would be they would be they would be finding themselves unable to develop their law unless they start talking to their neighbors to figure out where they can put their shared their water system and so that might be a good thing but i think you know the the other thing to look at is is is you know all this information is already provided to the planning commission at the time of development anyway it's the lens you're looking at it through that i think become will become really important as we get into the the regs it's like you know asking that sketch plan reduce question you know in the staff is looking at the still is like what's the plan for building out the storm water in the next ten years or twenty years are you going to deal with that whereas a go and if the if they don't have a good answer to that it's a that's a flag on the play department because that's what you want it in there should be a good understanding of where they're going to go with it so that you can understand whether or not that's a limiting factor for them to achieve the potential you want to have a public private solution in the in the absence of developing a district and going through the complexities of that which is a lot but the public probably don't mixed use north a good example of that maybe of area where the community says ok developer if you can allocate the least the resources land resources for there to accommodate stormwater to maximize the build up to achieve a seventy percent minimum lot coverage on that on those properties we will town of essex will maintain the pond and you know provide some infrastructure for that or whatever it is that's that's that's the public private relationship you don't have to get without the in the absence of actually having a utility that that charges folks for those things it's hard to get somebody to do that it is really there what's the incentive it's a asking you to be thinking about and get out of the meetings so that we can you know keep building this building this understanding with the planning commission so that when we do come back with some very detailed proposals you have the foundation on which to build it so that's really one of the big things want to get today was this idea or introduce this idea of we're going to be looking at in terms of recommendations for zoning we're going to be looking at things that will start to change what you currently have for setbacks they're going to be so the side yard setbacks are going to be probably less than you're seen elsewhere that's important recognize that the front yard setbacks are going to be you know variable but they're going to start to introduce other elements in terms of frontage requirements that will be different than what you've seen at least more broadly in the community you're going to add we want you to think thinking about  that that the notion of the primary street in the secondary street and the fact that we want to start to find those things and we get to the street discussion at some point the future we're talking about those more detail so there's a lot of tonight is a kind of a primmer on the idea that we're going to co opt a lot of what you have right now in terms of regulatory structure but it's going to be for the of the frame of reference is going to change a little bit so that it can start to bring in the concept of of building forms and give the building form something to relate to that's really kind of key thing but this table's doing is starting to now take these neighbors e t c neighborhoods and relate them back to the transects that we talked about as well as what those minutes what if you get if you just were adopt the true to form base code as it existed what what frontage types would apply those public and private  and what kind of setbacks would you if you had the range of setbacks for the for the for the uses within that district so this is the mixed use north for example and this is the the public and private  frontage types would apply so that goes back to the idea that in in that district there is going to need to be an emphasis on some public realm improvements probably to make it actually work you need to have street types that actually let people walk along them and do that a minimum you need to have some public accommodations within those within the public frontage but you also have privately in response the developer whoever builds a building in those in that district should not minimum is the maximum setback for the program from so that's a pretty tight in that regard because this is a game that's a very urban approach you don't want vast swaths of real estate between you and building yourself what your current birth record words are and that's the difference right buildings in form base code are meant to be part of the public realm they're meant they're meant to be related to it not yet actually defining yeah he's going to find it so that's why that's why there is this desire within traditional forms code to make sure the buildings are set back so far now that there are exceptions civic uses for simple almost always have exceptions because core houses are always placed at some distance itself brightens up form base code it's new library is going to be in the street practically i mean that literally like like  districts because less in the majors just because we want to try to get that building to relate to people yeah again right now the setback front step back in the big highest density district is thirty six feet from the travel way down so that's if you actually look at what's happened in the t c that's part of the challenge is that that that's a large area it doesn't take becomes very unfunctional does what do you do in that you know don't do anything constructive that's another reason they can make a mess make them less because if you are going to require somebody of developer to do something with that space there are thirty feet of plazas a lot of them want me ten feet you know that's ok i can swing that so i think it's really important to recognize that's one of the reasons why it's that's one reason why that the form is code that pushes in that direction  it might be very well again that's a question that we saw about where do you define where is the public realm start and stop stop if that all that's happening within the public right of way the kno that again that private for an edge is actually within the private land it's not in the public realm so if there is no public accommodations on the street that may be a thing to think about we can start to back you know you want the sidewalk you know you want the connectivity  been a you know it's the separation of use this this is been a big a big part of the net spend their money they wanted some you know good fences make good neighbors you know good distance makes good neighbors right but to make the buildings more relate to the street you know like they're in that same set back i hear you have to pull the co but it's probably not much different in in the less dense districts i'm looking for a difference yeah there's a huge swing yeah four feet so that's my point it didn't it didn't it hasn't adjusted so to speak side to back in this example you get exact zero point four now one of the reasons to begin these are maximum setbacks well i think one of the reasons is wide range and that may be very indicative of where we end up having to go is because of those unknowns about the ability to get to get adjacency to existing uses when there's not been the fire accommodate fire protection combination  so if if we are again if you look at the much of the if you see we know those buildings are designed to have other buildings put right next to them they could be retrofit there's ways to do that it's not impossible to put a fire wall in between  buildings but i think that's one thing we'll think about is the range that needs to be accommodated there and then the rear setback is a minimum of three no less you see they flip it there so minimum of three but it can be more could you could allow a building to get with a virtually no rear yard setback if it if it's common land that might be fine or if it's if it's an alley that might be fine you don't need to have a large backyard and that's that's again that's the sea change going from a sort of suburban mentality to a more urban sin then tell you no backyards and in a city don't exist there's a reason they don't think we don't need them there's not they're not providing any function have the same over density and we're going to have a lot more space to work with them but it's still important even within that districts are going to look at the neighbor transition they were commercial district within the e t c which is that through fifteen and those environs it's really going to be important to find i think acceptable private furnished requirements and again they they probably will not be as rigorous as you might need in the in the more pictures districts the hard part plazas per se but still how do we deal with that as we go into the neighborhood commercial is a very now it disappears doesn't exist do we want to encourage develop hatter in that sort of respects that or do we want to continue to have that green existing that's an unanswered question but it's a question that we're going to have to talk with you guys about as we get into that and we're going to streetscape the street frontage requirements the street technologies excuse me that will be something we c sixteen eighteen feet maximum so again the the the front yard setbacks are going to get bigger and then as we go keep going down i'm just going to have a scroll down here and you guys have this because you get to the more rural yes yeah yeah that's really high but probably higher than we would recommend but that's that's again that's the standard these are the model the temple model set aside and actually really go where that where that land is and then the p c that we're that residential recreation we talked about it's really constrained anyway so it probably will have time to really have very large setbacks you know you're the pattern of buildings the relation buildings are so far apart and so isolated from each other that there is not this sense the pattern doesn't become self evident you don't see it but when the buildings start to get close together that's where the pattern becomes really obvious and evident so you need to make sure you have that requires a place so i think that's going to go to say have this and you can just take a look at it at your at your next meeting and discuss it if you want but i would love to have your feedback on what you think you for each of these districts but what i think you should be thinking about does that just the general issue relationships between these districts make sense to you then we capture from your reading a book the draft masterplan your understanding of the project in the process is does this add to the tenets of these distaste transects profit your impressions of what those districts should be and i think the support of material we gave you can give you some some help with that that's the kind of thing i think at the end of day would really be helpful for the quakerish to think about and part of the process we're going through is an audit of your current regulations and that's actually going to be looking at your current setbacks in those areas under your regs to see if they still make i mean at the end of the day we've got to set the expectation that we are are looking to make some changes in this is a good representation of the types of changes that we're trying to find ways to to to bring in it's not that everything is going to be at eighty percent not that everything is going to be at forty percent but there's going to be a range and it made and it makes sense as to why it's eighty years for you here and i think that's the piece that's been missing in some of the development that we've done in in the towns current town center is why does it why do you want to go higher i don't want higher buildings i don't want this i need this i need that this this stuff suppose a framework around it so i mean i and pieces of this process so that when we do come back with here's the range of the walk her words were recommending for mixed use north or south whatever that you understand it in context with the overall you know project that's really the foundation and that's why we have breaking this process up into these different pieces so we're talking about today's dimensional elements and next time we'll be talking about whatever criteria and activity not activity creature yeah so we're breaking all the pieces up into some some chunks so that you at the when you when you finally get the drafts of these things to look at you can kind of go back to the sort of foundations or go ok i get why that that description is like this yeah the calibration discussion we talked about the need to be tested but we want to make sure we understand we need to make sure you understand what you're going to see and the context around it so that when you see it it's not just like well why you're proposing eighty percent minimum what very secondary street yeah no i think this is i mean i think this is a great structure for us to do and i just do i think one of the things will we want to do is i think what we might be helpful in terms of process is we'll have our kind of working meetings with the plank i wish it will have that check and with staff i think that's the great time to sort of go with staff to sort of go through the bike rack to sort of address some of these things or at least give our perspective on those things because i think it's important that as much as we're doing staff is doing things well in this process and it's really import i think to the both the project schedule budget and and actually at the end of the day it's really critical that staff as much involvement as possible because this is the code they're going to be you know working with so what i suggest as we do is we take like every third every third meeting  and we can begin to justice as we go we feel we need to but every few meetings or so set up a separate meeting that we already do and plan on doing this anyway but have that separate meeting with staff walk through the bike rack give them the perspectives that we've got on some of the outstanding questions let them take the the lead on the resolutions that they think are appropriate and then get back to the planning commission and maybe i can happen in the off meetings so that you guys have and i think that fits because iraq meetings we've really tried to  like as much as possible to have a repetitive structure arrestees number one does anybody in the commission or staff or you have questions that have come up about this content over the week or two that were off to at least put together some you know that could be a question he goes into the bike rack there to put together a quick little google map version of those and have that discussion at some point and then we'll get the benefit of the of the we'll get that we'll get the benefit of the of the information racketing on the shelf will take it back later power assisted by one of the older as we're going through these these nights it's really important that we don't lose that we don't go too far outside of scope for what we frame for these discussions if we have time great but let's let's do what we've scheduled to do first and take these other items and part of the side and follow on for you know as josh did the last one to one right off yeah and some of them well some of them you know again some of these issues are going to take longer to resolve because we just it's not just like it's there may not be easy answer to some but some of them need to go through i believe is it's i don't have an agenda sitting in front of me so i'm going to go with minutes thank you to the motion for the minutes of ten eleven judge seconded by josh does anyone want to offer any any amendments adjustments to the minutes as present and see which all those in favor of the minutes as presented  so the solar project on river road has had a bit of a bomb they identified some parents or an endangered species within where they were planning to put the solar panels and they're asking they're trying to make that's a species so they are going to ask for a set back waiver from the public utilities commission in order to do that they need me to support a frugal select board has asked for input from the planning commission on whether this developed for and like a regular industrial building that's what it would be have because it's the plate coming till it is commission and it's a real generation that's fifty by default i'm ok with that even if they do have to have a way for me actually knew there might be a on a power line running along the property there are some of the hookups but they're using to connect this project to  i'm the only one that doesn't like it you know like it because of the person i mean you know we have this is maybe it's ok but we have this tendency that when it's renewable which i'm all for but we have this tendency to be quick to there's no way we do we would if they ran into the grasses i'm not sure this group would give a waiver on the setback so maybe that the report back to the select board is that the commission is of a mixed representation of this  generally no concern over the particular project but with some concerns of president such that i don't believe that we would support a motion to to back the waiver  say you know if you want to one records say in all but one commission member of the commission to i'm more comfortable given that al is ok with it i'm just again worried about precedent and feeding this in a district that has a twenty five foot setback that's a big side of it i just again i don't know the business side truly is that relevant to our discussion it's not relevant to our you know that's what's driving them otherwise they would have said fine we'll just not encroach or regulat different components and neighboring landowner was approving it the area whatever it's twenty five even though the public has it up you can tell us who's who's public service more public service