in a race where the candidates own self funding or independent expenditures in the air you get exceed a threshold amount for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in a race for statewide office and one hundred thousand dollars in a state in any contributions i think you've got a serious problem well your honor i did but since i don't know the answer to your question it's hard for me to answer it but to answer that concern i will note that the defendants have raised have not raised that d we can look this all correct i'm surprised that you haven't yes i probably haven't i just hadn't thought about it in the context of th independent expenditure committees may never make contributions to a candidate in a given race even when the code eliminates the contribution limits for all other donors let me ask a question with regard to  out of that that was a concern that the district court but in the situation where the code has moved all the contribution limits there's not really an issue of independence that's necessary because normally when it's normally an independent expenditure committee it is loud to be independent because it can make unlimited contributions and raise unlimited funds but in the situation where there is no contribution limits at all but  is well independent committees are supposed to be independent of all camels and independent committee that links up with candidate is no longer independent will certainly not independent candidate independence but it's not independent it is independent with respect to candidate b because it's not coordinating and that's kind of like saying that if the republican national committee makes contributions to to coordinate with some candidates and still be independent that's your explanation of the supreme court precedent correct but in all of those situations they were there were races where that in titles your committee to coordinate with a candidate and question is can it coordinate with candidate and still be independent with respect to  a candidate b happened to be in the same political party we're not asking to make contributions to a political party so for purposes of these respective races they're independent there's good that they can only coordinate in a race where the contribution limits have been lifted this is a unique situation i think that illinois has where it lifts all the contribution limits and there are no limits the reason that the supreme court rounds independent expenditures and the reason that anybody would want to make unlimited  expenditures is the fact that you have poured a r e that you have contribution limits in the st place because if there are contributions there were no contribution limits there be no reason for independent expenditure committees would be no reason for independent expenditures if anybody can make unlimited donations to a candidate then you can make unlimited contributions to a candidate unlimited coordinated expenditures unlimited independent expenditures there would be no reason to distinguish among the different donors and since the illinois election code in certain elections eliminates all of those contribution limits there's no reason to have that distinction anymore in that particular elect the other reason why it doesn't make any sense the justifications don't make any sense is because there's no issue of quid pro quo corruption in these in these elections and that's the justification that the supreme court has said is the only ba which in general allows the government to prohibit independent expenditure committees for making contributions but the anti circumvention rationale doesn't apply in a race where there are no contribution limits to circumvent so the justification that the government has given in this case is based on anti circumvention rational i hope you've been listening one of the things apparently being circumvented  those two things the supreme court has said are a lot for states to enforce whether or not sensible for the justices that they have in fact said that your proposal what you want  seems to allow and runs around both i'm wondering how that's doable i can certainly imagine making an argument but we are inferior well i don't i don't think as to your nd point about the difference with the good about keeping the independent expenditures committees independent that i think that under the current supreme court  e where the requirements for restrictions of political contributions are based on the the rationale for prevention of quid pro quo corruption the it's appearance or  the circumvention rationale in a situation where there is no contribution limits then though those aspects don't apply there's got to be some some reason the supreme court cases on independently so they are saying that if there is no so individuals might make independent expenditures and then that could trigger the limit lifting provisions allowing unlimited contributions but those individuals then could make unlimited contributions directly to the can the nd question the independence points as far as far as i understand plaintiff's argument is that in that particular race with candidate a the i e c would be able to coordinate but then would continue to be able to make an append statement of organization and in that statement it declares that it exists for the exclusive purpose of making independent expenditures and that it is able to raise unlimited funds from any source provided that it does not make contributions to a candidate yes sorry your honor but any person who makes a donation to an independent expenditure committee will know that those contributions will be used for independent expenditures because that's what the independent expenditure committee has declared  must contribute directly to a candidate or can route a contribution through an independent expenditure committee the election code creates a pretty clear through to a system political action committee are able to think so your honor and there was a little bit of disagreement below about whether somebody could start both a political action committee and an independent expenditure committee you should think one person would be able to have as many different corporations as you want well there are some for that reason anybody who wants to make contributions once the caps have been lifted are entirely free to do so they can do so directly through to the candidate they can contribute to political action committees up to the limits and anybody who wants to go the union expenditure route can continue to make whatever independent expenditures they want they can contribute to an independent expenditure committee there's a fairly clear two track system here that makes it clear to people what they want to do and it's important to as well that the independent expenditure committees have fundraising advantages that are unavailable to other groups by virtue of the fact that they have to clear that they will not contribute to candidates pacs kirkland collection communities or political parties and that's very important for the additional reason that the that maintaining the ban on contributions by independent expenditure committees serves the purpose of preventing the misuse of that vehicle so look at the caps in the st place because independent expenditure committees could otherwise make use of their enhanced fundraising abilities which were granted as a consequence of their statement that they would not make contributions so then lift the caps and then they would have the hypotheticals to judge kind of what i want to talk a little bit about one of them something specifically on my page appendix forty and forty one so he raised this hypothetical of the rich guy who wanted to give a lot of money one million dollars to a candidate and in that hypothetical which i took to be the status quo the wealthy individual gives a knopf to the independent expenditure committee to raise the cap after which the wealthy individual can give to the can well your honor one reason is that it's not just it is in that particular situation the concerns may not be as great but there are also situations where two or three or four people get together who wouldn't be have been able to and unlike with the political action committee which has a wider range of donors as a consequence of the contribution limits to those organizations the person who is receiving the donation from the independents venture committee may be able to would be able to provide greater donations than individual work and you would be able to identify who perhaps was responsible for those and those anti  corruption rationales that underlie any contribution limits would come into effect in that case i would put it in a different way would on limited contributions by an independent expenditure committee be any more problematic than unlimited contributions by an individual sounds prevent individuals from making not only can't regulate how much anybody makes underpaid expenditure and they've made the decision that when either candidates are running or an appendix punchers reach a certain point  in the best interest to open up the contributions for everybody to offset those types of that's higher spending in this court recently up helps the cap with the procedure going to boil liberty pac noting that it was permissible under the supreme court unlimited fund raising ability by virtue of their statement that they would not make contributions to be able to make unlimited contributions as well and again the danger or the burden on individuals who want to participate with an independent expenditure committee or