died but i understand your argument to be that the reason that these were not appropriate here is because they were looking at the wrong agency pre print deciding to fish and see i orders at the local level that is either maintained and argue to the board and to the arbitrators that we just only look at the duty level you don't look at the local level to determine whether this was a reasonable but the argument you made in your bra employees and that's what you do want for the other actions under chapter seven five and in rebuttal to their argument that well no you have to look at the national level we made an argument that even if you look at the national level it's customer orders that drives the funding sylvie's and there's no evidence of a national level that they move money or saved money and sort of i'm just pointing out that there's also a dissent in the board that some of these cases came out after the case of here but in my own room case that that same issue came up before the board which is pointing out that this is an issue that's recurring because even if you look at the national level there's really no indication of savings actually occurred because i don't i haven't sort of gotten a clear answer from you not far about it which is so so there's all kinds of arguments you made you made the argument that you shouldn't be looking at d m v india theocrats is what we should be looking at the agency have loved to have known what the government would have to say about it but they didn't get a chance to because you didn't make it your own private there is a question for me about whether or not money saved by that agency by furloughing those people was or was not available for redistribution repurpose things d o d more generally that is a specific fact based question that i have no idea of the answer to and i didn't get a chance in any briefing to know what they might say about it because it wasn't there until the reply customer and and so when the board says we're not going to second guess spending per se our position is we're not either we're going to look at what are the customers do with that money and if the customers want the money at the local level  that correct petitioner's opening brief set the parameters of their arguments on appeal in that brief sole argument that petitioners made was that under chapter seventy five only the arbitrator should have looked to  working capital fund organizations with the positions were employed rather than the department of defense in our response we demonstrated that the statutory definition of an agency covered the department of defense department since met that statutory definition  berlioz situations is whether the actions of the agency has made a reasonable management decision to meet the financial circumstances under which is operating in this case given the evidence of the interrelationship between the budgets of the working capital funds organizations and the budget of the department of defense as a whole was certainly a reasonable maj min decision for the department when they were hit with this department of defense why budget shortfall to look absolutely does your honor and the furloughs decision has to be judged at the time that the decision was made and not some time later after the furloughs been instituted down the lines at the time for those which were made the department of defense had a thirty seven billion dollars shortfall in the budget they had already tried every which way to avoid prolonging flings and in fact thirty five billion dollars of that for a loan if used me up the budget shortfall were made up in other ways  cutting back on programs by cutting back on travel training and equipment but there was still a two billion dollars shortfall that could not be met without looking to for allowing employees and of that budget shortfall one porter came from the working capital funds organizations there is an affidavit in the record deputy secretary hale says basically that she financial officer for the department of defense and he went through an analysis of why that shortfall could furloughed would result in actual savings that could be recaptured and which could that's a certain categories of employees even the savings of not paying their salaries it was determined that those would not in fact result in actual savings to the department that could potentially be shifted elsewhere but the working capital fund employees it was determined that the fines could potentially be shifted and again potentially because the furlough has to be judged at the time that it's implemented the fact that six months later the agency was able to get approval from congress to reprogram certain moneys that were or was able to save some money in other areas and therefore in the end it didn't need to recapture and repurpose those savings that's   i guess i understand that there are predictions that were made about the potential for for this filling the budget shortfall are correcting the gap i guess and i still am having a hard time actually seeing the connection between these and since the bigger deal with the i just saw and i don't see in those affidavits that you're referring to anybody actually explaining to me how the funds transfer current and what happened to well they didn't actually occur because by the time further down the road the department of defense actually got permission they had pending work congress some riprap request to reprogram funds then they already been authorized by congress to be spent on certain programs and they had requested permission to reprogram those funds to be spent elsewhere when the  programming requests and reprogram aircraft were pending before congress they weren't authorized until july after the furloughs had already been decided and the memphis issues so that allowed the agency to save some money that he couldn't predict back savings that were real wanted by not paying employee salaries for six days but they could not have known that at the time that the furloughs were imposed at that time they were out there waiting under one set of facts that required them to find two billion loses their job then the two thousands may look at each other and say well our income has now just been cut in half we need to sell the car because we're going to have all these expenses coming up in the next few months we have the cables and we have food and we have rent let's sell the car it's possible that two months later the spouse that lost his job finds a new job that requires him to have a car to have a car and they end up having to buy a different car for even more money so that ultimately when you look back to twenty twenty hindsight  out we would have known that you were going to get a job we would never have sold that car but at the time the decision was made to sell the car that problem knew that they had a shortfall they had expenses coming up they didn't see a way to meet it doesn't sell the car that's what happened to the secretary so that there was a big budget shortfall that part of that could be made up by saving salaries yes but six months later eight months later down the road it turned out that they were able to make up the shortfall with authorization from congress to into the working capital fund organizations are in fact appropriated fund money and no they're not appropriated directly from congress but they are paid from other department of defense organizations that receive appropriated funds so there's so those fund had been the obligated in the past some funds were the obligated two thousand and thirteen and again this was all based on projections given given that the statute says that that it will improve the efficiency as a service would mean a lot more sense for them the agency to conclude that they didn't have the luxury of waiting they had to make a decision made that less than half of about half of that the school year left with an enormous budget and they had to figure out where that money was coming in and give people enough notice both in their personal lives  commissioned such that the money went away really down then we could actually benefit from the furloughs cause i mean given you're right we have to look at what was the state of our free agency of the d o d of the fact pattern at existed on that day that decision was made doesn't seem reasonable to me that they that that decision was made the agency knew first certainty that that decision was saving man and for all the working class funds five hundred million dollars dissent that you know it's going to happen basically that's to strengthen andersen to put it on a maybe even if it doesn't have to be that far as you're talking about how do you keep saying it's going to give them the flexibility but flexibility to what deontology and rethink flexibility forseeable at the time and that given and i guess i just somehow missed what you're saying now i understood that decommissioning could occur and thereby money can move but you're telling me the agency could transfer that money directly we don't need to even think about decommissioning that the agency had the ability to just transfer those statements directly right away to deal d to be used for the shortfall to the best of my understanding the money you save from the salaries themselves money from working capital fund organizations including salary money could be used elsewhere within the department of their separately or project signs because again because all the functions under the authority of the regularly during this time to ask to try to program that you're saying that they could just take it isn't true they were going to have to go to congress to have to say yes of course but saving the money in the first place would give them the flexibility to be able to go to congress and for permission to transfer those particular funds to other parts of department of defense if they didn't save the money in first place and the money would be available to them to do that facilities work like any company you have to go on your customers your customers obligated funds and then you either have the money to do the work or you don't and you force come back and that actually is our exact point here the efficiency of the service of these facilities takes care of itself if