i could do that too what do you want to pardon but just to really think i mean there's not a lot of people in the audience but there certainly are people who will listen to this online at least for the next several months the funding were discussed and worked on and voted upon and twenty nineteen i think will start to really ripa lot of those benefits so for me twenty eighteen was a good year i enjoyed working with everyone i think we had a we had a sad loss but we also had a good have a good replacement with david kaufman so i think we've moved forward in a in a good way and i'm really looking forward to twenty nineteen and i want to thank the council and our city manager and deputy manager and charley and who have really helped bring democracy to our residents so that we'll move on to instructions to exit the building in case of an emergency thank you home base of emergency the seeping please go out one of the two doors here exit the side and go out to the parking lot to the south side of the building if these doors are blocked go back out into the main lobby out the front door and gather again in the south parking lot tom hubbard and i are responsible for making sure the building is clear so please leave expeditious one might be considering the early next year and naming rights policy and a lot of new buildings and then the other is just a personal concern i have a right with all the songs that business is put up to advertise something on a weekend and i see it as litter in our road crew  very good about ripping them all down monday morning but i think it's a really different situation than a political campaign or a nonprofit that's having a bake sale in the that's how they can get the the word out so i would like us to maybe consider some kind of policy for the city and a process to maybe enforce that you don't being something it's just an irritation to me i think it really makes our roads look pretty crappy and so and it is really against our ordinances but people still do it yes i a and the other thing i'd like to under other business as well i've talked with individual constituents as well as individual councilors and i would like to  discuss and it doesn't have to be a full blown discussion tonight but the possibility of putting on a future agenda some kind message letter that we can write to legislators and possibly the governor with regard to the governance and and what we've been learning and the v t degger articles of the national collective bargaining agreements as well as other matters related to contracts so i would move that the council make a specific finding a premature general public knowledge of contracts and contract terms for in city and third parties related to the new community center would clearly all in favor so having so found a number of the council enter into executive session for the purpose of discussing contracts and contract terms related to the community center or the library board of trustees a city manager and deputy city manager inviting into the sec if session you yeah well get clarification you stated the community center but the i don't force talking about bar collective bargaining agreements as well as other matters related to contracts so what are we going into executive session for right now all that are related on all matters to call back in to order the south bronx council meeting of monday december seventeenth twenty eighteen and move on to item five any questions and comments from the public not related to the thank you my name is james lease and i live in south burlington so the digger articles highlighted commanders who abused alcohol they sexually abuse they were alleged to have sexually abused women and retaliated against the person who did his job to hold them to account but the commanders did one more thing that hasn't really been highlighted in some of the media reports that was included in the digger stories and that was that the commanders did a very deliberate cooking of the books and they did that about personnel numbers and jesper craven elaborated on it in his interview on r he said they did that cooking of the books about personnel numbers to facilitate f thirty five pacing that was the only place that the f thirty five came up in his reports and one thing that struck me about that seven article series with that all the allegations were against commanders not against soldiers or airmen who are regular members of the of the guard it was all the commanders and none of these activities of course can be considered honorable that we have commanders in our vermont guard who are doing these things that they must know are not to the highest standards of honor but the very deliberate cooking of the books that was mentioned by a former senior official and in the army guard i think is what it said in the article was not just a dishonorable thing it was also raised credibility dignity and trust it's a matter of honesty and this it was not the first time that it that guard commanders misled the air force the boston globe had a whole story about it in two thousand and thirteen where they talked about guard members fudging they used that word for the data to get the burlington air guard station into the running for the f thirty five and they fudged how many houses were in the in the crash zone did you know there are fourteen hundred houses in the in the zone designated by the air force for crash at each end of the runway extends three miles on each end of the runway and it's got a certain with about a half mile and this is where not all crashes happen but a larger fraction of crashes happen either on the runway or in those crash zone so we have a huge number of actual houses you really want zero in that zone and this was something that was f by the or guard or by the national the vermont national guard so we have a serious problem with the commanders and their leadership didn't succeed in protecting the men and women in the garbage security the women but also the truth in reporting and we had a problem where the commander in chief of the guard the governor failed he's not going to you know he wants to suppress and conceal this let this story go away is what he pretty much indicated we're not going to have further investigation to root out the problem branch and fix it and get a guard leadership that is going to be honorable and honest and have integrity and be the kind of guard leadership that we want to put this cause so much deeper than just what's going on in the guard we see the f sixteen s afterburner in two thousand a being implemented without any kind of environmental and the air force new and the guard knew that this was going to harm children in the neighborhood they knew it was going to harm both learning and hearing for people in the neighborhood and what about the passengers a year or what about them four thousand three hundred passengers i think it's for the thirty four hundred thirty four hundred passengers a day pass through that airport according to the  numbers given by the the airport and they say it's six hundred thousand the employments of twelve or thirteen hundred when one million two hundred fifty thousand or so departures and arrivals works out to thirty four hundred people a day at the airport they are very close to the runway they're going to be hit with hearing damage by the f thirty five a er it's going to be way louder than the normal ordinary military power this is not the usual kind of airport where you base this kind of thing usually it's i an air force base where you don't have commercial air aircraft you don't have civilians you don't you don't have unprotected people have children you don't have families this is the kind of airport we made it gives several principles by which militaries post to operate a fundamental one of which is to protect civilians even during war even during the heat of battle their job is to protect civilians and civilian property and not do things where it's not necessary to harm the civilians where it's where you can when you have take feasible alternatives here they have plenty of feasible alternatives and these laws of war are pawn i even in vermont where we don't have actual fighting going on the law of war manual make clear is there something you would like to yes ok so what i would like this this party to do is to consider requesting investigation by the legislature and by the state attorney i think there are damages to civilians and civilian property and the thing must be investigated and the people who are making these decisions and forcing it now forcing it in view of the votes that we've had in burlington and by this council and by councils and burlington's and we knew skee forcing it on the people it should be investigated and those who are responsible held to account there should i would also invite or encouraged the council to hold a public hearing on this and to invite guard members part political figures the leadership in the state the congressional delegation and the members of the public who and to have this in the chamberlain school neighborhood maybe at the chamberlain school itself to have teachers and students testify i think that they should have a voice in this as well and i think it would have a big impact particularly now when this this is huge opportunity has opened up with these reports in v t degger so and i think that we would encourage i would ask the council to encourage the legislature to have hearings not just about the particular inside the guard problem but the larger problem that the guard  is putting so much damage and injury on members of the civilian population who happen to live in this working class neighborhood right outside the runway and those who live in  aimed with a runway aims right at them center of when you ski in it willesden in the opposite direction thank you very much thank you very much are there any other issues people want to bring not on the agenda all right thank you moving on to the consented genda we discussed briefly ahead of time to add one more item to the signed disbursements which are two payments to disbursements one item is one hundred fifty one thousand nine hundred thirty six dollars and eight cents and the second was forty seven thousand seven hundred eight dollars and two cents for a total of one ninety nine s one hundred ninety nine thousand six hundred forty four dollars and ten cents so i would and then the consent and judgment gente it would include that addition to a b approving minutes for nov fifth and december third c review and resolve to not file inquiries are comments regarding prior notice of an application for a suit certificate of public good to the public utility commission for installation of an approximate one hundred fifty kilowatt grant net metered solar panel a re at six fifty spe street d d s review and resolve to not file increase or comments with the applicant regarding prior notice of an application for a certificate of public good  for the installation of an approximate eighty kilowatt group net metered solar array panel at seven o five spear street he is except ear of up here a vocal bull off first from mary street extension in win bond a bank for voter authorized debt related to improvements at one eighty market street so do i have a motion to approve as amended if we couldn't yeah ok when you want to discuss so the question would be for the city manager about your history extension right is the city i thought i'd heard that after one of the last for street does that mean that public works is going to plow the entire street and work next to market street or is it going to be temporally not plowed during construction phase of other things out would be filed it will be plowed by the city once we accept it we will we'll be responsible for plowing so big barriers were taken down now or whatever the current jersey burials will stay i think what we're hearing from the residents in the area and concern about traffic well we have intended to do is leave the barriers up at least until market street is completed if not until market street and the northern portion of garden street are connected so as to not turn mary street into a high speed through lane and and then engage in a dialogue with ameri street residents well in advance of doing anything about traffic calming measures and things of that nature has always been intended to be a public road that passes all the way through but until we get some relief for the expected traffic market street and maybe even garden street keep the jersey barriers up unless i hear otherwise from the council that's the staff recommendation the barriers the jersey barriers are eventually eventually ok so the question is one of them things you could do is say do not enter right that it's effectively a one like one way coming out into market street i don't want to make this is you know i think that i'm really glad that you v m is supplying to put in two hundred thirty kilowatts it's a really small or a couple small arrays on those those cement pads that are over with these to do composting in and things like that so that's that's the nice use of their land if you noticed at that farm the already have the roof entirely filled then they have another rack that speech when the the the barn in the road so that's really good and then that what is the annual cost for the for the for the parking it's a dollar a day perspective forty spaces fourteen thousand five hundred bucks so roughly a year i think it did that actually as my question i read the resolution twice it says there are one hundred spots and it gives the rate but it doesn't say how many spots we're negotiating for we are looking at forty forty but if we need to fill the gap in with the permit you could go to forty five it could go to thirty eight but forty is the number we're looking so if you were to reduce the number is the kind with the country we were in such a way that you could reduce the else mean you know where we were pretty sure what we're going to get in the market parking lot extension pretty sure we know what our permit obligations are and so that's the number that it will meet our permit obligation than would there be a dedicated flashing cross walk with a red light to stop traffic to let people cross there are no lights on market street but there could be there could be a flashing light one of the  we want that to be safe we don't want to market street to be a high speed road either you know but i mean if you have people that need to get to the library from the parking lot they're going to need a really guaranteed way to get across without any interference from from moving change on the disbursement signify by saying i i i can so we'll now move to the public hearing on amendment two capital improvement plan with the possible approval by the city couple implement programs to use to improve so just so i'm clear about the thirty six thousand dollars for the vehicle that so what we're proposing then is to have one less the then the police department i guess requested is that right so i guess you have not got some other funds that are funding it now ok and we've discussed that we shot him he's comfortable with the three cruiser replacement for the bigger cruisers now right  are there any other questions about the c i p i had actually did have a question and that is now where it is now but when i was looking through i think it was in this where it was talking about the funds for the reserve fund this coming year it's eight hundred sixty thousand dollars yes in the current  story in the future the next one the proposed but then after it it goes way down and i was just curious why it goes down to seven forty seven when down and that is because it's i one question is is this is a blueprint a road map as you said and we you know kind of compare it with our gas allowance are we going to be able to take that right is that something that goes into the of the resources say because some of the some of the projects are presented with the funding sources grant donations and few other things if we do not need those then those project might be pushed into future but if we do need them then they will here the questions like council members all right are there are comments from the public on the c i p yes would you like to come up please recreation path and i know the bike compared committee had put together a whole list of top priorities for the town and on that list was completing the section going south down dorsey street and i noticed that the engineering was kind of place for a plan to start at one point in the fiscal year two thousand and nineteen and now it's been pushed back to twenty twenty six and i'm just again here to kind of show my support in the community support with facts and the initiative they just got passed by the town the pennies for paths initiative was passed overwhelmingly by the town and that being the top priority within that  compared committee kind of survey and finding i was a little surprised to see that it was pushed out seven years there so and i didn't know if there's any way to reconsider yeah yeah it was out seven years and what we much martha so what's before us now is approval by the council of this proposed c i p going forward and just to clarify this is this is an amendment to change the way it's done capital improvement plan you still have the ability at the budget process to reallocate dollars but the dollars that are proposed in here for the general fund projects are currently included in the draft budget that you've seen for tonight so even up until the budgets adopted you have the ability to change those figures around but this is basically just acknowledging a change to the content of the capital improvement plan question before we vote here and this ties into a future discussion item for tonight but if you look at the city center overview projects overview market street library city says wilson road streetscape garden street one line item here and this again will cover extensively i'm sure i'm sure later in the agenda we still have the performing arts facility as a thirty million dollar line item here is the location of the cities that are going to still fall within the district and be a city center project does this still belong in this sept page my question yes it's still belongs as currently planned and being discussed some of which is just beginning it still belongs on this page good good question ok you ready for the vote all in favor of the amendments to the capital improvement plan for twenty twenty signify by saying i owe my post great thank you very much moving on december thirtieth and they should have in your pockets a list of what happened this year oh facing nothing exciting you just need and i just ask on all the list of the homestead status are these all changes so they were all these columns were not on or hadn't filed last year and now they are the state and this year they were extremely far behind their strict sure handed down and not peer so to long time for some of these homesteads to get actually filed and that's something that happens up to even this morning i did one final those are not required to be approved by the city council i like to keep them in one package so that this package goes and it's lives forever with a gram left in the clerk's walt this way here all the changes are together but you're only interested in the first spreadsheet but that it's substantial yeah but the folks that were off last year and i got on this year sometimes there are new owners right people who have gone from using it as a second home using as a primary residence the current and previous house site value differences what causes that is that like an accessory apartments type thing changes if people declared a use of business or rental use it's going to change that ok ok and i mean some some people will declare a forty percent rental use and then that same homestead declaration comes through three and four times a year now it's thirty eight percent of this back to forty percent no rental  bill but that's this is just a summary of it when they do a percentage rental use were they're implying that they have a duplex not you can rent out of a bedroom but you can count that as taxable a tax liability for the state to then calculate a state payment oh ok so it changes the value for the purpose of the homestead yes even though the value doesn't really change i mean then that income from that person doesn't account for that percentage of income from the rental space what kind of total household income still counts yes but the tax liability they don't want you  have a big tax liability of using part of it for title of business so they exclude that part from the part you can claim so that when they look at the two numbers they'll give you whatever number they want to give you it's a mystery to me but homestead house site comparison report homestead house a has nothing to do with the real value nothing so this doesn't really this doesn't change this is just to get the taxes accurate the proportion of each property with the correct and then make all the corrections but fortunately we have x ok so we have a motion on the table for approval and a second on favor i thank you very much you predicted that due to not yeah it's a a drop in the bucket compared to doing a full city appraisal which is where the the few companies that are doing it nowadays  should be at least two years down the road this is the type of thing where between the peas funding company getting in line the process itself you're a minimum of two years down the road so we've got to plan ahead of time just like with commercial just it's a little longer process so we look at two to three years down the road but the sum we've got to start putting the feelers out there now the funds for that come from the state the state gives us money each each year for masonry and put it in we've got a  and at that time they used i want to say five years of previously saved money and five years of yet to be saved money to fund that but other than i don't know the specifics of dollars what we've got sitting on the phone and these are done every twelve fifteen years usually the state has actually talked recently or say recently last year too about limiting  span to ten years just because of all the things that happened in that's period of time when people when the market tends to go down people like to come in and say hey but not everybody does so the people who do come in because of the statutes where i can assess property for anything anything over one hundred percent i'm going to lower the values so if you three come in you get a tax break me if those three don't come in they don't get a tax break when in reality the market itself changed and everyone your properties could very well have changed so that's an equity issue and that's that's analyzed by a coefficient of dispersion our numbers are still are pretty good but i can see in the sales that it's it's going to widen soon the market itself is is higher now it's harder than it was in two thousand and six some of the some of the sales are actually surprising at this point so the dollars that are being collected as a whole don't get to change because of a reappraisal but the equity throughout it helps and i'm sure the school would be interested in reappraisal because the seal a tends to rise closer to one hundred percent we're down around ninety four now and i'm guessing it's going to lower so and this and that would cover both residential and commercial so would be every piece of property and in our community excepting probably the airport properties we don't need to visit that again related to a proposal by the dorset park skating association related to plans to construct a new entrance facility to the karen arenas is on the south side of rink number one and for the longest time we have been trying to figure out how we can build a central entrance and be able to afford it your facility but i might add it's belongs to the city but we thought we'd to it's very difficult right now to have a function and bob can speak to this better than i can but it's very difficult have a function where everybody goes in the south entrance and then decides they're going to go which rink are they going to go to when you're tried to charge admission and they go well i'm not going there i'm going to hear oh ok you're going over there but really they're going to the other place so it's we've been trying to figure out how to do essential entrance but but to get a cost that was reasonable and we could never figure out how to do that because essential en doesn't make any money and it just it it's it's the amenity is great but it doesn't contribute to the bottom line in any way so it would just be an expense and a lot of upkeep because it's a lot more square footage so about three months ago or so we as a board met and decided that we would look at take another look at it this was back during the summer and we found somebody that we thought would work with us and we got a number and we're kind of at a place where we think we can do it for a number that we can afford and if you look at the plans you have in front of you and i'm sorry i apologize that they're so small but i was able to print those up a computer about five o'clock tonight i didn't then you had to if you look at the lobby you'd go in on the central interest like you pointed out to you if you want but i can't really be in front of a mike when i do it but maybe bob can do it where he is that you go in on the right there and that takes you into the central obviously you theoretically could go either left or right depending on which rink you want to go to they'd be a new snack bar to the left of the entrance along with a kitchen and new offices for for  the staff new restrooms and a upstairs also that would be able to be leased we have a gym that's interested in leasing up there and maybe some conference rooms in the if you look at the left side of the prince if you're looking at there's an elevator and stairs so that's how you get access to the second floor i think that this right now if you if you remember you going to rick one and you walk down that link that link in the back there that says is how you have to get access from rank wondering to so it's not very functional and this would improve the functionality of the building tremendously so i know you're thinking about doing something next door and that's great and i think the timing is great that we're gonna in this together so to speak because i just saw your plans i had seen the plans before but i just looked at them and that's  exciting but so we were looking at possibly going for approvals this spring and then maybe start construction around july if we have your approval obviously at your facility you have to decide whether you'd like us to do this or not so we're here to us here ok and i'd be happy to answer any questions if you have any specific questions maybe myself or bob can answer i have a question in terms of improve ewing area yup so for the if the north rink correct you will improve the viewing area you're adding on right so we'll be sort of likely to see now on rink one  ok we have so many senior citizens and people right now that want to view activity in ring two and they would have to go to the bleachers to do that but right this will give them a protected warm space where they can view the act i think that's big than a big plus of rink number one that we've had that building area where you know some people stay warm and kind of watch what's going on i think that was a pretty nice feature when you build it so we'll have the same thing in right to be meeting space designed into this well where the old pro shop is now will turn into a conference room as usual that's not to be far too far south that's what we will turn the where the pro shop currently exists into a conference room that can either use ourselves or we can rent out right well use ourselves or all our groups you know you talk he grew high schools whatever you know though bill use it for conference rooms which would be a big asset tenant up above on the second floor  they you know they can lift weights do whatever and we and they spread out among c's other fitness centers around but they're all interested and have been for some time or you know having a second facility in that area so there's there is a lot of interest we haven't made the hard decision on whether we want to go that route or not but there is that possibility and it really would complement everything that we do i'm sure we'll talk about this as a board as well because as you all know i serve on that board as well the city council if you look at something if we look at something like fitness and weights they're going to pay real close attention as to what's between the first floor and what's under it right because i ran into that problem with a building not that long ago and it takes quite a bit to make sure that that's going to be compatible and then the only other thing i mention is i look at all the rest rooms architects to keep in mind that we're going to have a couple of single stall restrooms unisex restrooms and they're not i don't see them in here and we got him and we can't not do that i think the design to be honest with you is still a work in progress as a matter of fact the elevator originally was in the snack bar and i decided i said that's not a good place for it and i just saw it tonight that they'd moved it over to where not like were it is now but that was that was new to me because i just flew into data and saw this plan so you know some of the things i think are still a work in progress i think that the major thing to accomplish than i would be is just the intent to let us go forward because i think that some of the design might change will but we can always come back and say well this room is going to be here and that room is going to be there but after tell you that i see the design of what you're going to see next and i really like designing what you're going to do if you end up going with it i would like to incorporate some of that if we could into this building with that slope you know design of the roof i like that well that's what i was going to say if indeed we are going forward with a wrecked facility which is the intent if we can move fast enough and do them both at once right that could work out pretty sweet and of course we would want the designs to be compatible so what we need is a motion to  motion to enable door to parts getting association to proceed is that we're looking for well i'd like to be able to do police moved to the next space so that we could take it to our board which we have a board meeting tomorrow night and then we can go to whatever the process is for d r b or whatever we  because a lot of the capacity is already there of the capacity is there depends what happens when we tag on the south bronx in facility as well so do we need a motion to i don't think you can deny it's not worn for action what you can do is give tony  and that strong head nod or thumbs up and we would then prepare a resolution that captures all the relationship and everything and get it back to you officially for the first meeting in january maybe but in the meantime you can probably give them enough we keep working i know i know david will have some wonderful ideas about how to make the bathrooms efficient we were in the room airport the didn't flush and there was a sign and you put your hand under where the and the water came out then you moved to the left and got a little soap and washed it and then your instead and then you went over in you dried it i've seen those and as if he's going to financially benefit or said that's ok so we're going we're going to go let's go fact you'll be tapping him for money this will cost him probably tim geithner question it's related but not directly to rebuilt have to be replaced so you wouldn't want to put solar on that rink and then have to tear it all out and have to do in a ring new roof so that kind of precluded the fact that the work on that particular building and that's the one that faces t wo for that matter that's newer but same idea you know use not you have to engineer in what we understand you have to engineer the roof to be able to support the the solar can't support that way i don't believe so it wasn't it wasn't designed for keep the spectators and participants warm so we're heating and cooling heating cooling so it's continually year round and i had given it some thought you know it would be nice i mean they're flat roofs but if we did solar panels on those roofs not sure how the perience is going to look to the people as they're coming into the park and so forth you know you're going to see the solar panels and you're going to see the reflections of just thinking within it's about a roof facing south of those two getting roup rink one is getting close to its expected life and when it gets replaced i think that would be the time to do the do the solar because you get twenty years out of it after that and i don't think people object to seeing them i don't think they believe it to be ugly to see them i mean i think they think smart people are you know i mean i don't know if you're aware of it that way back us and we needed cooperation from the two utilities between vermont gas and power at the time and greenmount power was really unhappy that we were basically taking some revenue away from them and so they were buddies who ha solid time we were we had the capability of producing probably about forty percent of our energy and that included all the free domestic hot water and free heat for the building and we it was very difficult call me back and forth and it ended up not really being a big savings because of certain practices there were product out by certain utilities so anyhow it just didn't work for has so we had to save you know the neighborhood of about thirty thousand dollars a year off our electric bill that changed so we've gone ahead and and we just completed that project about two and a half months ago so we'll see how the savings you know compile here down the road we've already worked with a vision supermarket oh my god oh yeah oh yeah yeah because just for everybody's because you haven't been before the council a long while right long time last time it wasn't a great experience with four hundred people in this room and they've been very undesirable management so we're much better off but bob is extremely great at finding ways to save feeding vendors incredible to see the people coming in every day enjoying themselves and you know we we basically would have the need for another ice surface because there's enough demand right now but you never know what's going to happen to sport  i wouldn't want to jeopardize what we have by adding you know more than feeling the crunch but it's gone very well people enjoy themselves they've been happy all these years and it's been nice  all righty so kind of moving into phase two of this item ten council review of proposed plans to construct a south burlington indoor recreational facility see this plan come forward i've been on recreation of parks committee for twelve years and this has been a priority for twelve years and we have seen a number of  of this and to me this makes the most sense it is in the right locations there is parking it is great synergy with the cairns arena we had fifteen pickle ball players come to recreation parks committee and they said we want we want the outdoor facilities in the summer but we want we want we want to close facilities so we can keep playing in the winter and we like to have a little socializing after we do our pick a ball is one of the fastest growing sports in the united states and lo and behold the carrots people are building a  cafeteria and a little wine and beer and coffee and all of that and so it just all works out and it's just great so we in november i'm sorry thinking about this our committee met this saturday morning for three hours and we we had previously met a few of us with kevin and tom who set out a timeline of what was going to happen how it was going to be funded and someone we wanted to just review all of the notes we had made over the years of what were our priorities what did we want to include in this kind of building and  purpose a church field walking track on the second story and that is very important to us to have a two story structure with the mocking track of the guys who got people walking around you've got to walk you know get through those people in order to get here whatever you're doing a maker space that is less outfitted it's minimally outfitted unlike the senior center it would be a kind of space where you could do arts and various kinds of things that would be a little bit messy and possibly also some yoga and and other kinds of things in there we think that eventually there are other kinds of spaces like that that we might need but this building does it's absolutely essential that we have that kind of performance space or maker space or whatever  to call it we really want to see that included and then the other priorities that we've had the first senior center auditorium those will be met in the community center in city center and then operational space for our art department so the committee met tonight and we are still very excited about this and we're eager to work with city council in the city planners and and in advocating and fleshing this out so jennifer speaks so eloquently off the cuff and i have everything raging in my brain from senior holiday meal to lights to or to budget and see ip so i've written some things that i will speak from so the need for an indoor recreation facility to support our active community has  established in one thousand nine hundred eight the work of identifying program needs as ingredients to a community center began with formal plans for a significant facility to be then built dorsett park while the need was well identified documented and supported the concept was never placed on a city ballot and was an energized potential and the energized potential was then shelved current use of our community schools provides basic space necessary for programs though not always ideal or consistent without space to facilitate independently were beholden to the schools availability school sports clubs and enrichment activities book much of the highly desirable spaces of gymnasiums libraries and cafeterias school use is further pressured by a district run afterschool program at four out of our five community schools additionally our community benefits from active p t o s who schedule space first school community events plays fairs and the like leaving few options for our department departments consistent use while we continue to offer an array of programming to the community when and where we can results on regular participant surveys indicate that both time and location of programs is less than desirable were limited by what we we were limited as to what we can offer by the spaces afforded to us while rich in parkland and open spaces we lacked the indoor facility required to satisfy the population that we have been served to call called to serve too often residents are leaving south burlington to access affordable recreation needs and desires in other communities not because they want to but because they have to in a moment you'll hear from leader who's been working with the city since two thousand and thirteen to help design and realize the potential of an indoor recreation facility initially the lead met with both recreation department staff and committee to get their list of facility needs this initial process developed into a several month project as a final list of needs for dedicated indoor space was formalized in january of two thousand and fourteen with a vision of a grand community center at market street the original concept for this was to become perhaps to be comprehensive of city hall library in the recreation facility all in one location but it was deemed that both the footprint still on and the price tag of a combined community center and the needed infrastructure infrastructure at one eighty market street were too large as plans began to take shape in the past year for combined city hall in library facility the senior center concept was actual ised as a component of the design this served as the first space to be managed in programs by the recreation department for the past year both staff and committee have been heavily involved in both design and advocacy for the senior center space and look forward to its realisation in partnership with the program space at one hundred market street additional spaces at city center works floor to erect a facility that would meet the indoor active recreation needs of the south burlington community long planned for in the comprehensive plan the options were explored a suitable resolution was not found and again it was back to the drawing board with land as a sizable expense we began to inventory city owned properties that might support such an endeavor and came back time and time again to the original designs from the one nine hundred ninety eight dorset park designs veterans park has proved to be the pinnacle of outdoor outdoor active recreation regionally as ages the needs for upgrades and infrastructure namely parking in bathrooms has risen to high priority looking to improve both of these elements while learning of enhanced ment's being made to karen's and plans for a central entrance between the rinks pointed us back in the direction of placing the indoor recreation facility at veterans memorial the committee once again went to work sharpening pencils and reviewing b s and present studies updating a need list of inventory recreation space the presentation you're about to receive is a cut is comprehensive of all of our highest priority needs and in collaboration with the senior center provides trophic opportunity to finally meet the needs of our bustling community i'd like to welcome a door to present some concepts of our in church into our recreation turns memorial park you'll find the design streamlined the communities needs taking full advantage of the established park resources thanks always your wondering how long it was going to take south burlington and very happy to see some of the stuff materializing it's very exciting times for the city so as kind of it's been framed for us there's been a lot of work in effort gone into the programming  of this facility and just wanted to walk you through kind of where we are and we're very preliminary in this right now in it's very conceptual but we wanted to give you a flavor for for where we are going forward button on there for me again yeah so what we were tasked with was coming up with because of her in vermont and looking for indoor space some climate controlled indoor recreational space for the city and the basic components of the programming were to create kind of  registration customer service area a kind of greeting lobby this warm and welcoming for the citizens we're looking at four courts three of them being high school regulation sized basketball courts and one of them having the option of having artificial turf on it for different program uses there would be an indoor elevated three lane track going around these we have a movement studio slash maker space last conference room slash lots of multi purpose  lots of lockers and we've tried to kind of make the lockers in modules so that they can adapt to the user groups that are using the facilities so if there is an all female group that are in there we can expand those to be able to have more locker room space instead of just having to and everybody clamoring so i can show you those new plants also they'll be the new home of the administrative spaces for the rec department and one thing we can never have too much of storage both inside and outside  there's also a couple of different building types that we've been tossed to look at and we've kind of narrowed these down just to be covering the court areas so covering the koreas we've been asked to look at you know what it would look like for an inflatable bubble over the courts and another version is kind of looking at more of a semi rigid structure kind of sprung system that's a little bit has a longer life span than the inflatables and then more contemporary traditional structure and the way at least i'm looking at these things is there are different times of solutions for the city i look at a bubble as being more of a you know fifteen twenty year solution before that has to get replaced the more rigid structure has a longer life span maybe twenty five years and then the traditional municipal project we're looking for fifty year lifespan of the building so these are all things to take into account when you're looking at the cost because you know you may have first capital cost reduced with some of these things but you need to look at the lifecycle cost also as well so we're going to be analyzing all of those the building footprint itself is about forty four thousand square feet on the main level there is a second story that has fourteen thousand so we're looking at total program of approximately fifty thousand square feet the conceptual design as we have just to orient you those are the rinks that we just talked about and we've actually leased from the last time we have met with the rink group to talk about their addition that they're putting on to see if there is synergies between the two and we're also looking for some connection points because i think it's important that these facilities all these have some indoor connection to them so this would be going on the south side of the rink we'd be in increasing parking as well so these are kind of conceptual in nature but if we dig into the floor plan so in the next slide this is a blow up of the first floor plan so we've got before court surfaces these are the locker facilities right here and they're all set up identical there's a unisex gender neutral bathroom with a shower in the front of each of those with their own private entry so they can double if you have refs coming to the courts to be able to use that and they can shower and change theirs connecting doors between each of these locker rooms so if you needed three that were female for a night you just lock that last door and you got three that are female two that it could be male so you can change those up they're all exactly the same another problem we were trying to solve is bathroom facilities for the park itself is right now underneath the little pavilion there are some seasonal bathrooms less than desirable in most cases i think they usually everybody uses the rink bathrooms summer as well so there's some there's some bathrooms here that have access to the outside when the facility is closed and this gets locked off so you can use it there's also the same one in the back of the facility for if you're using any of the playfields back there is circulation between the courts so you don't have to actually cross courts to be able to get a crew from you know one side to the other which is important they'll be drop down curtains to be able to divide all of those off into unique spaces this is now the main door lobby there's kind of a a lobby lounge with some soft seating a registration desk in here here's a kind of multiuse space that can be used for movement studio for yoga can be used for maker we're going to have to do some work to figure out what the feet up and finishes of that space to be able to make it as flexible as possible but there are also some you know gender neutral bathrooms located right off of that this is a connection into the rinks also with another exit and will have to work that out as you know the rink plans materialize and move forward too so we can get that connection point down from a site perspective we're trying to hold the building off there's a lot of snow that comes off the existing rink so we're about seventy five feet off of that existing space to allow room for that snow to pile up without damaging anything we're providing  service road around the block and the parking that you saw on that previous site plan is about two hundred eleven spaces conceptually at this point that we're adding to be able to help the rink and the park users as well down here along the bottom pacific leave you know if you taking balls and all the other materials that you need for the wreck so it's inside access storage there's a gras in the back that has overhead doors to be able to bring stuff that you're storing outside  inside and the mechanical space will be in the back and then some work to be done on engineering to see if there's any way that we can have some good cost savings if they're trying to exhaust a lot of heat from the ranks which they are if we can capture some of that and reuse it to be able to be our facility so on that main lobby area place for non profits really concessions not like a full bar or anything but something where you could easily set up coffee you have something like that is that part of this blue we had an area in here to be able to provide vending services for that because what's happening over the rink is they do have cafe space and not knowing exactly what that schedule is it wasn't in the program for this facility is certainly something that can be looked at but trying to look at something that's complimentary for the full site and not compete  certainly it's certainly going to get investigated as we move through this further pumping up to this is a blow up of that connection point of you know where the existing vestibule is over there on the southwest corner of the rink so we would have entry coming into that you know here's a movement studio it could be a folding partition there to be able to subdivide that space further if you have two different events happening and simultaneously there's some storage associated with that there's a couple janitor closets to be able to deal with on the first any maintenance needs those two doors on the left there are the doors to the current rink one correct so they would now go into that entrance to rink one straight ahead of that is the pro shop which is going to become meeting meeting space right and so we do need to figure out exactly what their their lay out is and trying to find the best thing for you know circulation inside the building back and forth competing against them but there was a big tournaments over here and  shore although i think bob's thinking is that with the size we're going to make the cafeteria that be open i mean we're going to probably hire a full time cafeteria manager and i think  is not that big is there any any capacity to look out at the courts and yes so if we go up to the next slide i'll just kind of give you the overall of the the upper floor so there is an elevator here the be able to take you up stairs as well as some stairs there's this three lane track going around the outside these are the record ministry of offices because director actually if you go one more there's a blow up of this leave you out so up stairs you come in an elevator it's got two sides you get a pass key you can come into the inside of the house part of it there is programming  in turns that we've got set up as part of the program this is minister iter and director conference space storage little kitchenette and some bathrooms for up stairs and communicating stairs going up and down so this whole side we envision being able for administrative from a supervision standpoint to be able to overlook the courts for the public access between each of the courts we have two seats on bleachers on the length of each court so we were lot it's move a couple times we had a couple different configurations for the the field i haven't taken the circumference around again but it's about a tenth of a mile you never know as we've been talking about in the meetings that we've had those basketball courts are convertible to virtually any knitted sport pickle ball however that works in the flooring so that stanton's i don't know how that works but i know it works right it would be any need it's work could be able to be played on those what is it three pickle will of course to one basketball court it depends on the configuration a it can be as many as four but when we get to those fitting finishes it will be looking at lines and make sure that whatever multipurpose lines are still usable in that there is just not a rainbow of paint on the floor that is confusing but the intent is to have a lot of flexibility in the court spaces the surface is at least for the three courts are thinking of you know hardwood floor system for basketball the fourth court would be an in laid turf system or it could be another basketball court with a rolled out surface for flexibility and those are some of the details that we need to keep working through on the design process on the next slide this is just a quick rendition of what this could look like and this is thinking that this is a traditional structure so over the back is a big of vaulted roof we're planning for thirty feet clear to bottom of trust so you can be able to you know handle volleyball and everything else that happens inside so i guess what i mention what we're going to be pricing now is what's happening kind of back of  solar or does that have to be rigid definitely not with inflatable for rigid you can they've got to beef up the structural system which will be fuck the cost and certainly for our contemporary traditional build we would size that so that what we'll use what we capture to heat the new edition but there's probably left over after that because i think you probably know what j p i think the number is eighty percent of the water parky comes from the skating rink i think it's eighty percent is is what trying to you know to make the ice on the ground with a more efficient system ideally you would need all that power to freeze that water if you had you know some sort of geothermal thing but that's really expensive i'm just saying that in order to make the ice  you're using of the system that sheds that much heat because it's got to do that much work rate ideally you would want to have to do that but then you would lose the ability of bob explain we tried something on that much earlier many years ago and the savings that were projected war there were  be working on you know between now and mid january is to put some numbers to each of these options and kind of come up with you know the good things in the bad things about each of those systems so you guys can make some good informed decision little given what you want we want to put in there what we want on the second deck is not realistic is that reasonable i think is a very reasonable take away from that we've been struggling with it ourselves just you know how we make that work why don't we forget about that and just i mean what's the point spending time on it it is not going to work why don't we just look at the seventy rigid and and you know traditional and see if there's possibilities on a semi rigid saving you know a couple million bucks i think it's a fantastic idea myself that's that it would be good to know what you already did that a while back yeah you know but but this is a different yeah that that i wouldn't spend much time on it that is also where the committee came out see how much it cost to put a library there to the reality is there that we probably can do that would be great to have this thing ready to go the same time just to let you know we're on fast track from my perspective that's what i keep hearing he's faster alice over here  have you know any electronic stuff so we'll take a few minutes past those cookies around sweeten up the crowd that was created a couple years ago to look at the possibility of of a creative arts facility in the city center for south burlington we have several members of our board with us tonight my lovely wife jennifer barton tom done andy pearson frieda tots and david trachtenberg or i won't tell  i'm just going to speak very briefly briefly before i turn this over to don this initiative came out actually of  a free press article that i read a little over two years ago where there was some discussion about what might be happening for university mall and reimagining of that and one of the ideas that  s outlined in the in the article was a movie theater and i thought to myself well we have lots of movie theaters around but i wonder if anybody has ever thought about a mid sized creative arts performing arts facility so i reached out to to helen and asked that question in the answer was gino so on we went and in that period of time we have put together a board we've done focus groups we've done surveys and now we have before you for your  review of feasibility study which is really to me just a check point on this project we have a lot more to do and a lot more to think about but i'm very happy that we've gotten this far with it and i'm even more pleased that what i think the results suggest to those of us who've been in the arts community for a while and i've been involved for thirty some odd years and past president of lyric theatre life i was a geek i did technology management for companies like i b m bank of boston i was the first information technology director for the city of burlington and six or seven years ago decided to hang all that up and join forces with my wife and and have a great time teaching kids so we've been having a lot of fun with that since then but we've known we've known and pretty much everybody else in the arts community has had a sense that there was a need for mid sized performance venue for a long time something that is in between the rules the smaller houses like the black box here the we have that has eighty seats main street landing which is in the neighborhood of one hundred fifty or so and the gem of the community which is the flint center for the performing arts has got you know roughly fourteen hundred seats there was nothing in the middle and that's created a vacuum that's generated issues in terms of programming in terms of all kinds of things can come to to cover mo always a challenge to find a good place to housed those that's affordable and midsize venue made perfect sense but nobody had one so we couldn't use one  a mid sized facility offers a lot of uses that are not currently supportable in the community and donald get into some of that and in more detail but some of the other things that distinguish our our concept from what else is available around here is that we intend to be primarily a producing venue with that means is that to a large extent although certainly in the  beginning there will be many acts that we bring in the way we're interested in doing is actually producing shows and doing that in a collaborative basis with connections and people that we know in regional theaters and also in new york we've done that at my wife's studio now for two summers where we brought professional broadway performers up to work with our academy in new shows that have never been done before and it's an amazing experience to see what happens to these kids when they get an opportunity to work with people over the top of their game it's incredibly inspirational so we think about education we think about educating beyond just performing so one of the things that the facility like this could offer us the ability to do is to think of brought the broad scale of available in the in any performing arts venue so it's not about just being up on stage it's about the marketing it's about development it's about all the technology that goes on behind the scenes so we're thinking about internships apprenticeships collaboration's with schools to look at some of the acts of any seven initiatives that are going on on and all of this is with an eye towards figuring out how to attract people to come here and stay here and how to get some of our kids to not leave when they finish with school  the other thing that we're fortunate to be able to consider because we're looking at this as a brand new facility is the ability to embed some emerging technology into the facility as well so  we've had discussions with people like from on p b s companies like scenario which is a brazilian based performing arts streaming service companies like fifty nine productions in new york that does mixed media performance and technology stuff because we think that we can actually embed the technology in this facility to drive down the cost of production to drive down the cost of capturing new works and either streaming them live or capturing them later for further distribution down the road and part of the idea behind that is the ability to create revenue streams that are actually funneling money from people and organizations outside of vermont back to our nonprofit to make our what we do that much work sizable and and and really elevate what we do in that  the country in designing and developing performing arts centers and we've been in business for thirty years this year this project began slightly more a year ago with a series of focus groups some of you attended there were quite a number of south burlington folks in attendance at those it was a tremendous amount of excitement and visioning going on about what the possibilities could be for a performing arts center or creative space shortly after those focus groups the feasibility study commence it's really at this point it's about a thirty thousand foot view of the space of what can happen in there the programming et c i took a very very conservative approach we can talk about the pro forma if you'd like but we were we were very conservative if there was profit we went in on the low side if there were expenses we went in and i said in general it's actually a really large facility so as as tim mentioned we're looking at a five to six hundred seat main stage theater may or may not be traditional for seanie i'm one hundred fifty seat black box here so that's pretty much a a square volume if you will no fixed seating platform in very flexible space an atrium lobby so not only is it welcoming and and concession space and whatnot but it and i looked at the whole county because it really is all pretty much here you know it's pretty easy to get to south carolina from anywhere within chittenden county and the population base of slightly more than one hundred sixty thousand was an impressive number to think about if we go just beyond and look at some of the neighboring communities were up at about three hundred thousand people and if we start to get down my way into washington that number increases we looked at age education income and as i said as i said the population all of those are very positive factors when we look at a feasibility study for a performing arts center from an operating point of view the south burlington city center for the arts operates on a year round basis it's as to mention it's a the model at this point is for a producing venue and i'll just explain so a producing venue like same st michael's summer theatre so they go out they identify a play they hire the staff to design it directed etc and then they and they perform it that's a that's a producing verses the second component of the space would be a presenting facility and so that's where where we would go out and hire a touring artist should johnny cash still be alive we might go out book johnny cash bring him in and present him  rental would be it would be another source of income as well and then and then some of tim's ideas of streaming and partnering with with  other with other organizations in addition there's a fairly focused education opportunity so working with schools as tim talked about and part of are part of our overall operating including  internships we looked at other venues in the study i think we called them computing complimentary as tim mentioned so i started doing theatre in vermont in about one nine hundred seventy six i think and i can remember at that point we were performing in a tent over the downtown mall on church street at that point it was a single storey with a big atrium it stuck up and we had a tent behind it and if we finished that summer a performance and somebody said gee would it be great to have a three hundred fifty seat here so as far back as like that and so we're really more in that five hundred to six hundred and to be honest when i started the study i was coming down more than five hundred when i finished the study i was really at six i think i think as a designer point of view i would probably do three hundred fifty seats down two hundred fifty seats up yes you get that intimacy if you don't sell the balcony still works economic impact it's really really pretty astounding and i hope that you take a look at it at that part of it in the in the study the americans for the arts have conducted a number of economic prosperity studies talking with theaters around the country in different sized communities and different sized theaters and came up with a formula whereby we can plug in certain numbers and end up with the numbers of jobs that they create how it rolls down into the community into restaurants and hotel rooms and and that's sort of thing on that end of it i used the smaller room so there were a number of categories in those communities and so they at communities that were fifty eight thousand to nine hundred ninety nine thousand so i took that rather than the one hundred sixty thousand that we really really talked about and  the numbers are significant and they're really i'm pretty impressed with all that from a management point of view we look at a pretty thin management staff skilled i think we started out with five i think and i listed some of the some of the responsibilities that some of the folks might have and i think we covered all bases pretty well as you all know that high end of any of any business like and ends up in salaries and so i always try and keep those numbers low it means everybody kind of really joining in focusing sharing responsibilities and being very efficient to what they're doing from an ownership point of view really there are a number of scenarios and is it is it a private nonprofit that owns it is it is it a commercial and does the city of south burlington own it and with it within each of those scenarios there are a couple of other  scenarios that i detailed in the study funding that's discussed in there too at this point it was a little difficult to really because we're not completely sure of the of the program what kind of funding is available the pro forma we show the first couple of years in the red by a slight margin that really could go the other way as well  for me the most exciting part of this study was the appendices we included in there the results of the focus groups to really pretty exciting and more importantly a  survey we sent out a survey to thirty nine stakeholders we heard back from twenty four and if you really take a look at the comments in there they're pretty excited about the possibility of a venue like this kind of looked at and i spent over a year on this thing for a number of reasons and it's still a very fluid dynamic process and tim came up with another revenue source two weeks ago  it works for me you know i think we're in the in the right area of the state but one of the things i looked at we don't have we have a great audience base here we don't have that as a new venue we don't have to go out and educate an audience about performing arts and that happens in some of these other places where i work where there hasn't been an opportunity for folks so here we have a pretty a pretty good arts educated community and that's that's kind of a struggle you know when you're starting out you know you know how to do in recognizable things and you don't want to go too far out  push people and make people too afraid of what they're what they're going to see so you if you come in with really with name recognition you know here we are we have a pretty good sophisticated audience i think i think where we're the size of the venue is rare i think we have a great number of people who are interested in in rental and that's always a pretty good benchmark or a pretty good  that well maybe i think i think as i said i was i was very conservative so i won't lower it so so i built out on five hundred seats so if we had one hundred seats more there well there we are but let's stay with five hundred so so when you're when you're programming a venue like that tonight and i know we haven't had programmer back here but when you're programming like that you you pick up a percentage of your house that you expect just so so in this one i took fifty percent you know we really could be at sixty percent that's thirteen thousand this is really i think pretty simple to make up you know i kept our ticket prices really low i think the average ticket price in the first year was about thirty five dollars so if those ticket prices are thirty seven fifty or something like that you know it really if it really didn't concern me that you know i figured it very very conservatively and like i said when i started if there was profit i kept that really low if your expenses i want to go and i just had a second question and it was that the salaries salary was fifty five thousand on that first year of operation but the numbers didn't work out that way so that's forty five nine ninety so that's the total expenses right so so so americans for the arts and plug in your total expenses for your first year of operation and then then i had to figure out what our total audience was and so in that first year of operation i figured fifty thousand in attendance at shows whether they were rentals or or presenting or produce and then  then i think that was it and then they calculate out based on data that they received from communities of similar size and then use a similar size around the country and the below that under definitions it kind of it kind of says what what those household income full time jobs etc so those full time jobs like tom was indicating could be servers so you said you had a conservative estimate of fifty percent bookings for two hundred thirty events a year is that what i saw in here so so fifty percent attendance at a show attendance at a shop right so any rent or debt service in your estimates here so that's somewhat assuming the city would be where would the word the coverage of the facilities be you know that we don't we don't know that yet ok so we don't know what  time whether this is owned by a nonprofit owned by a commercial entity we you know we just don't know pro forma your thirteen thousand doesn't factor into rent to the facility or debt service  you know what's made this really you know i said dave i've been i've been working on this over a year it's and it's still so fluid and you haven't determined ownership or or how that would know i going to one of th erie from listening to you could turn out i mean it could be like a dorset park skating association where the city owns the infrastructure and operating entity operates it provided haven't said you know we're thirty thousand feet you know we've got to you know our next step is probably you know ten ten or five thousand feet you know we really need to dig into this you know now that we have this kind of a laid out now it's really you know come back and take another look at it when one thing i'll just jump in with was that to some extent the concept for the facility was born out of a visit that jennifer and i but we met with them and spent a day and it was actually very interesting because that actually is a city oh and run facility i would say that in my  research that model is definitely in the minority but they have been running them for close to fifteen years i think and just gorgeous beautiful little facility in fact that's the just kind of the stories i hear from long ago broadway maybe it's not the same case but if you don't get the you know the ticket sales that you're expecting people don't necessarily get paid so i  was just curious about that how that  know for me that's part of the reason why we're trying to think of it as you know a nontraditional way and why i'm thinking about it in terms of an integrated performance education and producing facility there's no question that nonprofit thier organizations sometimes struggle and they sometimes fail oftentimes they can fail i mean typically ticke revenue usually only represents forty to fifty percent and maybe of an operating budget so a lot of it is made up by charitable donations foundation grants you name it but we know that we're living in a world where that's harder and harder to get so part of what i'm doing and have been doing for the past year is reaching out to commercial organizations to see if there are possibilities to create commercial nonprofit partnerships to find a way to bridge that gap because to the extent that we can drive the cost of running the place down or in dow it by bringing in some commercial process what that allows us to do is make the entire thing more more accessible so for example it northern stage down and why river junction the top ticket price for students is five dollars all the time for any show doesn't matter that's the kind of thing that we want to aim for and part of it is bringing in outside organizations and partnering with them so we have mentioned before relationship with a company called new york stage originals that does touring shows and one of the shows that they have is called tap kids and it's a show of eight teenage performers basically telling the us orry of their senior year through tap dance and music and every year for the past i don't know how many years how many years has tapped it's been with basically take over green mountain suites and several of the top tap dance teachers in the world come in for a week and work with these kids and at the end there's a show and it's typically been a main landing that's one week and the amount of revenue that gets brought in it's not just kids from our area that are that are paying to wish and in being educated other kids and that inspires our kids to we've been fortunate in that we usually every year there's one vermonter that makes it so it's that kind of thinking about the facility as a pathway to income and connections and collaboration outside of the state that i think will help make this really succeed  a good chunk of that is looking at the way the technology is changing why performing arts in much the way that it's already changed the music industry in the cable and television industry and we think we can be on the  some of that well thank you very much i think this is another kind of exciting idea a concept and i appreciate reading the report and we look forward to continuing the conversation thank  you item twelve further if this conversation in part counts a discussion on an amendment to the self the city itself in charge or to authorize the collection of an additional one percent in the local option tax for the purpose of financing certain identified public projects and possible call to convene this city charter committee so having your taking  you you've heard about two projects that have both come from committees one your recreation parks committee and the other is one formed as a result of your meeting two summers things we recognize that the school district is also working on some project ideas for the middle school in the high school that will undoubtedly go before the public for support driven by the property tax the only revenue source that the school district really has so not wanting to to compete or otherwise confuse the public with with miniscule projects to pay for and school district projects to pay for what staff have identified as a potential revenue source for these projects would be another one percent on the local option tax currently we have one  percent on sales one percent on rooms and meals it raises about three and a half million dollars annually with target here it might raise a little bit more but in those funds are used to buy down or pay down the debt on the police department but also to hold down property tax increases so we put the three and a half million dollars against the demand for higher property taxes and in a pace that down what we would recommend to the council for consideration is a increase in the proper in the local option tax that one percent that would be two percent ultimately on sales two percent on rooms and me him with the additional one percent dedicated completely to debt service these projects until such times as the debt is retired at which time the additional one percent would sunset how does that to you know i think to know the answer to this with online purchases will that one percent be assessed on anybody that lives in the south burlington in theory is that how it's supposed to work so if you order things to your house that one percent should apply and that should be collected by from amazon  most of amazon's sales would be they would have to charge that extra person of course all the stores and restaurants and hotels would have to charge that as well no the state would not return as the four percent we would get a percentage of that right what we would propose to the state is that as it currently exists with the one percent we have even that one percent the state takes thirty cents out of the dollar and we get seventy cents out of the dollar so it's not good enough that they get six percent the sales tax and nine percent of the rooms and males they also want part of our tax so that's the way the system operates now except for burlington they get the whole hundred percent as far as i understand  don't get me started so we believe that if the existing if we project out total cost for projects then this is just but let's just say we had to raise forty five million dollars let's just say we had to raise it at the current seventy thirty split we could pay that off in fifteen years  if the state granted us the one hundred percent based upon the points made by the presenters that this really has regional or even statewide impact it could be paid off in ten years so seventy percent of our one percent raises three point five million the full percent raises a little bit over five five point one five point one five five five zero with those amounts we could pay it off in fifteen years or we could pay it off and then we would avoid going to the property tax payers to say you know to make a demand on the property taxpayer we also  would not be looking at this as a either of these as a tiff project on the one hand veterans park would not be eligible for that on the other if we built a performing arts center in city center it's possible that some test revenue could go toward this is well but we haven't figured that as part of it because of other to related projects already approved in the financing plan so so from a timing standpoint  and process standpoint the council would need to approve going to the voters in march with an amendment to the charter it's through the charter amendment that we would generate the additional one percent if the voters approved in march it would go to the legislature for approval they have to approve all charter change  immediately immediately after the vote so much time if the legislature approves the additional local option tax it would undoubtedly have some kind of triggering mechanism so the triggering a mechanism would likely be a vote by the pop by the voters on actually of her and debt for these projects so the actual debt vote would come at a later time but initially we would have to show the voters will have to show the council we have to show the voters and we have to show the legislature that these are the projects will have enough information on the projects and the program in the costs to make a convincing argument that it warrants the additional sent the local option tax at a later date perhaps perhaps june or perhaps in september one or the other of the projects or both could go to the voters for the actual debt in leawood if we go to the legislature would we also include this sunset clause that war how does it how would that work as we wouldn't necessarily know what the board is it would it would it were a at the point at which the debt is retired whatever the debt is ok so if a debt were thirty million dollars you can calculate out when that would be retired knowing within a good proximity what the local option tax is going to be i would my recommendation would be to engage the charter on that on that issue  committee and ask them to come in and work on this over the next few weeks so the charter committee knows that we're looking at amending the charter and they can work out the language so the tree would be ok for that for the for the debt i think that would be a reasonable trigger for the tax to engage couple of things one i think there was an excellent presentation on the arts i'm big on the arts the only way we can justify i think as a city being an active part of that if it was a situation similar to the ranks of the word is the city would have to own the facility  and have to do a much closer examination of their pro forma and be assured that it's going to run in the black on a continuing basis because the tale in a for tim or tom t tim mentioned the ticket revenue only covers fifty percent typically of an arts facility you know at the arenas i think mental covers one hundred percent and then some of our of our operating costs and we get to keep what we make from the cafeteria  in our demand and so we have a much more certain revenue source and the presentation on the art center because he said you know fifty percent from tickets and the other fifty percent from contributions are partners or whatever else that's going to be pretty darn sure before the city can commit to to funding a building like that so that's just one piece i'm all for funding itself throwing to recreation facility  without engaging the taxpayers at all by going for that extra one percent i was at a state chamber of commerce meeting last week and there is going to be as always upward pressure on taxes can't crystal ball that c e o is going to roll out either i don't think we can worry about that initially going forward but it is something to be concerned about because a legislator is spending more money and they have to spend and they've got to find money somewhere and the roads meals taxes a perennial target it's going to target ever since i was in the legislature well back and back in the eighty's every year there's pressure raised meals tax and so that that could be a challenge  the rooms and meals there's just there's a couple of red flags out there but the idea of moving our south burlington recreation facility forward using other people's money because a tremendous amount of that money is paid by non residents of south burlington specially in the hotel and things and a lot of the retail two zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero access roads well spears sources tax i don't think they're going to monkey with the sales tax from a very similar amount of what i just heard dave say on fully support of the rec center i'm not necessarily sold that we need to go to change the charter and raise one percent through this distance sales and deals tax going to sell your three acres and then contribute the money and pay for it to contribute the money also three acres but no i am completely supportive of moving forward the rex center but i think this needs a little more to flesh out the pro forma a little bit more w understand some of those finances understand a site location and i don't i would want to stall progress on the rec center to move forward the charter language change that's why i think you don't want to move forward on the charter change and i would be very concerned if it was restricted t language or the shifted to specific projects if we justify one percent increase to pay for all of the city services that we need increased fire increased police because of us being a magnet magnet municipality where people come here to lowe's that makes sense to me to raise the one percent i'm just not convinced we're there yet well we could we could also allocated in percentages you know x percent goes to capital improvements and doorstep no i wouldn't say necessarily ago it's not against the one percent i just don't want to restrict it to specific projects like necessarily the city center performing or what it will tell me again why not i just want to flesh out more of the tour in question just understand where that is i would hate to oversaturate the market i'm concerned two of the two hundred thirty events a year just the the numbers that they put down i would want john cole aki i want to bend your ear since you know the flint theater with the real what your perspective is on those estimates are i'm not ready to go full throttle on the city's collaborative well i don't disagree with you and i but expressed that concern that the revenue stream from an arts facility is not as certain as a revenue stream additionally the rec center will immediately whole different structure there one is for the benefit of everybody in south burlington from recreational perspective the other is dedicated to the arts it's not out there student prices  i just you know like you concern about the revenue stream and whether that's going to be secure and how far in we want to jump on something i think the question for tonight is probably do we want to ask the charter city charter committee to run a charter change that will would allow us to increase the local option tax by one percent and then let them flush out and the other projects continue to flesh out what the actual costs are and how long we would have to put this in place or you know what what the payback would be  for me they did early did this kind of work for the first one percent of them so there's not that much work they have to do in herds terms of so what they have to submit to the legislature this process i think we have a very good idea about what it's going to be a brief  but with an eye toward process and engaging the committees we thought calling the charter ninety would be a good idea well i think this is a little bit different if we if we take the administration's recommendation that it be used for debt and daryl loan for the city projects when the debt is gone the one percent is gone the additional one percent which might be a better sell to the businesses in our community who will have to collect that and be at odds with everyone but burlington and willis and they both have p at the point at which death is being heard and the public decides they want to recreation facility but they don't want a performing or a creative arts center then all the money raised is going to buy it on the death of the wrecked facility that idea that it's focused on the debt for whatever projects the community vote for and if they don't vote for a then you never get triggered versus just adding to the coffers and will just spend it on whatever how you word that you know way that it's legally binding is that possible yeah well i think that's what the city charter committee would work on that's why i don't think it's just taken the language from last time we do it is now with the  languages restrictive now on the one percent to do restrict of the debt service on the police station and on buying and paying down property taxes you can't we could probably taxes so that's what open to pay down the property tax assessment is as us why do everything you could but that you could come up i think you could probably come up with some things that you couldn't use it on but even if it was that you just pay down the burden on the property tax payers then we can move the money around to different that i'm just not supporting restrictions on look at all because you know there's a budget every year now these monies coming out of your thoughts on any restrictions tied to a possible one percent increase i'd love to hear i guess my only comment tom is that just knowing the capacity for the general fund right now in a budget that to be able to finance is through property taxes would be a real strain in trying to keep the tax rate at a level that i think you would all feel comfortable with so i think the thinking outside the box was to place of elsewhere as dave pointed out a more regional draw actually for both the facilities but specially for the performing arts kind of made sense to look at the whole coffins as a viable possibility for this well i think it's particularly important to be sensitive to what the other side of the street is going to be asking the property tax payers to so i mean i i i don't think we should just go hell bent on the election and get our stuff in first using the property tax before the school comes across with what they need so i think this is a creative solution to allow the community to decide if they want to support a rec center because if it can't happen unless they vote for the bonding and i think we have to make the case that this does have a regional and even potentially at some level state wide impact and i fear that's going to get us safer we make that case the state's going to say all the more reason you should share it with us because it's benefiting everybody thinks we should get a part of it i'm not sure that argument going to work a facility is for everybody in the state this would be the state's investment in a facility that benefits the holes in it and it'll be a challenge can we part of the i guess if we all go down and testify in and john of the other rate in governor scott if you still governor that is going to not take a nice like view of that to the previous point i think the rec center is going to if it's ten million dollars that's about half a million bucks a year and that's what i'm expecting some revenues to pay that down a bit so i'm not saying i want to put the burden on the taxpayer i'm just saying that there is a long established demand a need for rex space and direct space in this community i fully support moving that forward but i am increasingly skeptical of wanting to support the first  remember this is a residential tax increase and it's also a tourist tax increase going to drive by tax increase drive early on to get my thumb i mean anybody that shops here is going to see that people that live here are going to see that right if you go about your restaurant you're go see that you almost need to qualify if you if you already quantify increases in taxes by saying a three point one four percent percent in this simple tax increase equates to twenty four dollars on a average two hundred fifty thousand dollars condo or blah blah blah you almost need to say if you are on the average of spending your one hundred dollars a month or whatever you know on going out to eat and or buying things here and there you will see will cost you this much so just thinking ahead to if you had to quantify for an average consumer what that was that would be but if you're going to ever ties an increase in your in your sales rooms and meals tax you need to be able to explain that some of them is going to go to work to a facility that really will be benefit self bringing people were is this other thing is going to benefit the whole county so those are just some more things to keep in mind got you probably can anticipate though if they do their work quickly and if you want to stay on the schedule possibly a special meeting of the council about mid january to make a decision as to whether or not you want to move forward ok all right thank you while yet the gas tax ok moving right along  didn't thirteen comments from the energy committee us in march and then go to the legislature immediately not for charter changes they typically take them up or because our town meeting is always in march ok welcome would you please identify yourself for the camera yes my name is linda macon it's on the current chair of the south burlington energy committee and i'm don cummings member of the committee so thank for allowing us to present to you this evening we know that it's a long night and i do keep it brief we're seeing this is the first in a two part series so we're hoping that you'll have this back sometime early next year but it's also because we think that there's a couple of tasks that we'd like you to really seriously consider at this stage so we're here to talk about how to accelerate our progress towards reaching our energy and climate goals that you have so beautifully laid out in three  resolutions i'm going to go over first just to give some background so that we can bring it fresh to your mind what those three resolutions are the first is in twenty fourteen you had an energy efficiency resolution actually i want to preface this by saying we are not as exciting and sexy as a city arts center or a rec center but we do have the added plus that we can save you money so that you can spend it on the things that you want to spend it on so i didn't want to put that out there in the twenty four thousand energy efficiency resolution you laid out a goal to reduce energy usage by twenty percent by two thousand and twenty to have an energy efficiency plan developed and to report the results to the city council on an annual basis in twenty seventeen you had a resolution that said he would use the solar landfill revenue to support energy committee initiatives together with the city and that's about five to one thousand amount that you're already generating the first year has about ninety thousand dollars excuse me already and then the third is the climate pledge coalition resolution which we are very excited about to meet or exceed the paris goals of twenty six to twenty percent reduction in greenhouse gases by two thousand and twenty five we're going to focus on the first two this time because it has a couple of asks that we want to discuss with you we were really pleased to have helen and kevin join us in last month's energy committee meeting and kevin committed to on that first one not much has been done on that first one and he committed to working with us on a quarterly basis to lay out an energy efficiency plan and report the results back to you and on this next part i'm going to say that you had set a really great excellent policy context and framework but the implementation in getting us to those goals has been pretty relatively slow and we have a good start but there's a whole lot more to do and a whole lot more money to be saved for the city and i'm going to examples of what are a good start and then go into the other things that need to be done so over the past four years around four years two thousand and twelve to two thousand and sixteen you have  invested in energy efficiency projects that is to the tune of about half a million dollars and over that period of time you've generated if you look at the cumulative savings about a million dollars in savings which is remarkable i can guarantee you there's no other project that you're investing in that will give you that kind of return that's pretty incredible ok so that's one of the things that is a good start but there is a whole lot more to do on that the second as you're well aware is the solar landfill revenue which we worked really hard with you to help  get going and that has an annual revenue of around ninety thousand dollars to be expected to continue that way for the next ten years that's a total of around six hundred thousand to a million dollars over the next ten years again you're not going to find any other projects that you're investing in that gave you the kinds of returns that these do so what we're saying is that there's a whole lot more that remains to be done and we've been working really closely with the fish and see her mind to prioritize and look at what remains to be done these are obviously things that efficiency vermont has been working on with the city and this is the type of work that we plan on looking at with kevin over the course of the coming year and the key on this is that these priorities have have a payback which is really you won't find anywhere else the ones that you've already invested in had a payback in about three years and they will continue to generate savings over the course of every year you can buy is the don't projects are all about so what we'd like to do is take it one step further and make sure that those savings that are generated are reinvested back into energy efficiency savings projects so that you continue to generate savings and have this positive effect that you'll constantly have several hundred thousand dollars at least to the tune that we see right now coming back at you as a city to reinvest in more important things than sending our dollars out of state for fossil fuels so what we feel that we want to focus on with you and we have three asks which i'll get to after this is that we need we can generate far more with putting more priority on these types of projects by allocating some resources to multiple tell you about that and especially staffing these projects are hard to manage as anybody on a city stuff will tell you it's like a lot of time and a lot of effort and staff are overtaxed as they are and so what we're talking about right now is what it takes is time of someone like an energy services manager there are three other towns in vermont that are currently doing that than invest in an energy services manager hartford lebannon and here what we're talking about is this person would manage energy projects across all departments and again these are all projects that generate savings or revenue for you they would scope out the projects that are on the priority list that the city has worked hard to pull together with efficiency vermont they were present an annual report to you and what we're talking about as an ask is a minimum of a third of a full time staff and it doesn't have to be an energy specialist it could be that it's a person who does part of let's say  she can focus on managing the energy investment but what we're saying is it's going to take at a minimum from what we've looked at we've talked to the other towns that are doing this a minimum of a third high level fulltime stuff equivalent now how do you pay for this right you know ok there are several available options for doing that you have the solar river reserve fund which is generating sixty to ninety k a year you also have a fish and sea savings right now that we work with efficiency vermont on that show that you're saving around one hundred ninety thousand a year but if you invest in new efficiency projects and this is what's happened in hartford the investments in the energy efficiency projects are paying for their energy manager there's a stewardship fund which i know has some been described to us has some of the efficiency projects in it if part of that could be dedicated to a third of a full time equivalent energy services manager that's a possibility too and then for the types of investments that you're making going forward we'd like you to consider looking into the possibility of a municipal lease taking the solar river reserve fund around some portion of that whatever you feel is useful and using that to be able to generate additional funds that you could get through m is a possibility and we'd love to talk about with kevin we don't have to come to any conclusions right now but it's one of the ideas that we're talking about right now the second is a revolving fund that ensures that the savings that you're generating from investments and efficiency get reinvested back into more efficiency projects so that you're constantly reducing what you're spending on energy so that you can spend it on more important things like a rec center her city at center whatever you want to do it for but it's basically to reinvest th energy efficiency projects for example changing all the o e d st what it wants might be in the range of two hundred thousand dollars you can't cover simply one hears from the solar front however i at once so that you get them done now in so you start reaping savings that very year the way we've been doing it now we've been doing projects out of maintenance budget and so we get a little incremental savings each year whereas if we group them did them in a big bang approach paid for them up one zero at once the the so reserve fund could pay the note thank you so the three asks that we're asking you to consider as appropriate for the operating budget is funds for an energy manager and we identified where those funds could potentially come from from energy projects that are actually generating either revenue or savings to consider municipal lease to do a higher level of a higher amount of official sea projects and then three establish a revolving fund for reinvesting those additional savings so that we can ensure that we have continued savings going forward so that's the three main asked that we have a few i'm sure you probably have questions if i could just generalize the last two i think in general we've had to cut two issues with three issues  it it's critical that local governments and state governments along with individuals and businesses are even for force for local governments so it has to become high on her priority list secondly we need a responsible person who can take charge do the prioritization run the project plans work with time and financing work with just the implementations whoever that the right people or the key person is important and lastly it's beyond us but again work with tom and the rate financial people to ensure that there's money coming in to invest in the efficiency upgrades that will then return savings to the city in a subsequent here and there are models that are working right now i'm uphill years doing that right now and that as the three towns that i mentioned before have an energy manager and each of them is bringing in savings that can pay for the energy management which is pretty remarkable and we have the job descriptions from them we've been talking to them from up till your we have how they set up the revolving fund so that you can ensure that the reinvestment can take place so we have lots of examples and those are all the types of things we'll be meeting quarterly with kevin we're starting tomorrow that we'd like to bring up that we wanted to make sure that the city council was aware of this because again this is the only thing that you can invest in that's going to bring turns quickly as it does and on top of it can bring down a greenhouse gas emissions which is something that we'd like to talk to you about more in depth in the beginning of next year so questions are coming projects that remain like  that we know of i think the way to the best of our understanding these projects have been undertaken when there is funding and there's an immediate need for example the lights rock traffic signal we will upgrade the traffic signal but what we're what we're requesting is in a proactive manner let's look at all the potential projects way out of project plan  the value of each of these projects how much it costs what is the benefit put them together into a plan prioritize them hires and prioritize them have someone who's managing that whole process it's kind of the way it happens today it's kind of a secondary process to other business is is my view well bert there yeah you have to understand the water which water pumping stations i don't know what the frequency is for for purchasing that kind of equipment but those are pretty large capital improvements right which is why we're talking about trying to look at different financing mechanisms that can allow you to do bigger purchases that's where i'd want to have justin come in and say what the what the expected lifetime is for those those pumps and whether we're this payback point is a this is a list that efficiency with the value and the cost so a thorough evaluation and a privatization could be which is why we're starting with an entry energy manager it takes work to do that but the benefits as we can see from the work that the hundred thousand dollars a year savings that for the efficiency projects continue ad infinitum right and so what we're saying is that yes these are some big projects that have been highlighted by efficiency vermont s things that really south burlington can get a lot of benefit out of but it takes projects scoping and that project scoping takes someone to do the work so in hartford what they did is they the city council put aside forty thousand dollars and they actually hired to come and do an energy plan for them and that's what they  did that's not what everyone else has done necessarily but that's one way of doing it that was a forty thousand and that was before they hire their energy manager after they did that they're like holy we have we have to hire an energy manager to make this happen now they have one and they're going through those projects like this and reducing the amount that they're spending overall by leaps and bounds and so that's what we'd like to see here and it's a lot of work i mean kevin stuff is doing and they're stretched thin and i mean we had the discussion they came kevin came to the last meeting we totally recognize that stretch that you have sources of financing right now that can potentially pay for this right you have funds that are coming in every single month that could potentially pay for it or you could project forward and say these are efficiency savings that are going to come forward from these projects that could also potentially pay for a manager we're talking about a third of a full time stuff that's  they so that list of priorities can you just go back to that seventy five pages is an expansion of those items or is that now there are many other projects oh this is just the priorities are the ones that efficiency from has identified as priority after having done the audit with the city about what three years ago and it's and it's unfair to say this is a prior post with this is a list of some of the projects that were identified that seventy five pages for they go through both all the details of the projects that have been done and identifying a small and large ones that could potentially be done but these are these are the main ones i mean we work at we're fortunate and that tim parent been with the city he's with efficiency for my he's on our energy committee and he's the one who's picked the to clarify that there are there audits and process evaluations and other sources that date back from two thousand envelopes for example you know heating keeping the heat in the building there are mostly about equipment within the building or infrastructure outside of the buildings where i think you heard were you sitting here when he was talking about the rings you know we're saving plan and so there was a major piece of money spent and then it produced savings if you look at some of these other things much smaller costs so relative weight a much higher return on investment on the other what is the payback going to be on them we talked efficiency your money went through some of the major projects and they said payback in five years on average for some of these bigger projects that's still better than anything you're going to find anywhere else you're talking about paying back the debt you know the mortgage or whatever you're talking about earlier on ten fifteen years ten if you're lucky fifteen if you're not so lucky it's a payback on average of five years and then it's gravy after that that you can then reinvest beg the question of the tone just  it's up to us then to follow through and not only should we follow through but when we have our investments paying off and making it possible as lenin done is shown us to to really help us meet our expectations without asking for you know an increase you know to hire a third of an f t yes i mean that the answer seems obvious one we have to plate when we can already paid for that i just i think that the questions are good it's very good but i think that you have to meet our obligations no question just a statement i fully support everything you said i think we should for seventeen years to pay off the loan there's another way but you know this but the energy committee has some information that there's another way to do that so we won't have to commit ninety thousand dollars a year of that fund solely to the library so that's i think how we can work creatively to find you know the money for the third of the person we get the top half because the if for example one of the forty thousand was a c but let's just assume you needed fifty grams this year over and above that so are now fifty grams should pay for itself in savings next year if you were not just right you would use a lot of bunch of efficiency projects we already see what they can generate in terms of savings and you ensure that that savings is utilized to pay concept dave say and or do we do with the savings that when you put them in the other effects you put it in the salaries you put it into a vein you put it in every other because you're saving money on energy so you have to make a decision as it coun about the documentable and put it back into energy efficiency programs rather than the rest of the budget and all you have to be reduced property taxes just completed a little  a model of a recognized though when tom says well health care costs are going up seven percent and and that's going to be a burden on the property taxpayer you're not going to get the savings that these guys are generating to help pay for the so the council can act i went all over that there are also middle of the road options that you don't have to commit on hundred kevin but i come back to the cerebral solution of this council and i also come back to this is a policy that was passed you know perhaps two or three years ago that is potentially paying for itself as opposed to penny for parents as opposed to the local actions tax as opposed to all these other things that we're looking at and so i think that we have to think about what geishas that we have already signed on for and then we probably should move on to direct i've got this you're suggesting that if we can if we can figure this out for a twenty year then the new funds that are generated in savings can carry forward and that we can allocate a percentage of that into reinvestment and still use and still use the funds that we've been using for other city obligations we just can't continue to load onto that because now we're going to take some of these new saving if you if you if the if there's three hundred thousand dollars worth of or two hundred thousand dollars worth of energy savings coming in now and it's directed to pay pensions whatever and we're now asking that past weekend to stewardship fund was increased from seventy five to one hundred thousand dollars so there's a twenty five thousand dollars increase in that the you could designate for whatever purpose he walked i would give you twenty five thousand dollars towards a third or fourth person if you some truth to do that is that the fund that doesn't also dips into to change the traffic signals i think he has a list of projects for the next year we're going to steal from one side of the energy equation but the other i'm just i'm just saying we were increasing at twenty five thousand he's got twenty five thousand the goal was to increase a twenty five thousand every year and we've always kind of back to seventy and we accelerate our savings to add say three hundred thousand next year and you take that two hundred thousand and to that whatever's of naturally pretty soon expenses a percentage of that cost of living whatever it's go waiting for item seventeen if everyone is agreeable let's go from item thirteen skip over fourteen fifteen we've already eliminated sixteen and go to seventeen i see appointments energy committee sam swanson for the open space committee again a member of the energy committee knowing i'm sorry the worst those have not been that's a discussion that you need  think you can go to all the planning commission meetings and they will listen to whatever comments he has because they're moving ahead on those so maybe that is just a clarification he needs because we did talk about that's what they were going to work on first recommended by the energy committee which is another conversation but we have this motion on the table so let's let's just take it second to second ok andy card from the public a variety fought and real cross section that would be important i guess my my thinking for the open space was really using the open space plan that came out of the previous i c and really looking at it purely and not you know a broad spectrum of perspectives and obviously there are different fields within conservation you know from a position of expertise is this what my thinking was and not that's what does the public want in general smart here is what this open space plan has listed as criteria for prioritizing plans and then you have people representing you know various is that there are various things to consider and land conservation and open space so who do we have on the open space committee right now  they have two people well they have someone for open space as well sam swanson of your yeah andrew any legal aspect of a challenge to the dorset meadows she said not me not me any more but i don't know whether her husband is or no i just don't know i mean who on the entire night that might you might want to figure that out because you and what would be a better methodology if any if you successfully ours if he's successful with this legal challenge i'm guessing this has to do with dorset meadows then that would then put the t d r changes under the purview of a body that he would be influencing so well with since i wrote i guess that's where you're coming from on this and i don't know these things traffic and i eighty nine and charlie wrote back with more details about that that is you don't have to change the minutes i'm just i'm now filling my role  giving you more specific information so twenty five percent increase in traffic on i eighty nine is forecast between now and twenty fifty or so countywide population will increase twelve point seven eight percent the number of and is forecast to increase thirty five percent and the number of households twenty five percent so that's very interesting so we're getting smaller households so when we think about this you know sense that those that type of housing would fit the needs that are going to be rising here in the next thirty  find the money and don't make those arrangements and then you will get back with us when we can figure out you're talking with someone now about the  impact so we'll have a full picture of what this will cost so i think this is great and tell charlie  it's within your guidance it's a two point four percent right now although the chair of the t m t board tells me that their assessment hasn't come through yet and it's going to be higher than what's in the budget so there's a little bit more money going into that tom yes yeah and we ended up with significantly more than that so so we we feel good about what's being proposed i think i'd like to just encourage you to look through it as you have time at this busy time here and as you have questions to feel free to final limb to me i'm happy to respond to anything after tonight now don't get me wrong but i know you're probably getting tired too so if you to e mail it to me if i don't have the answers or make sure i get the the answers from the managers and get you the information you need because the part of the session on january seventh the council meeting will be the working session on the budget they'll all be here that night all the managers will be here and i think i'd like to spend any capacity edu have tonight just give me your thoughts of what would be most meaningful to you is the traditional way of having them come in and just kind of go through their budget the best the war what kind of interaction would you prefer quite honestly after reading what you  but every have tonight for questions as well still a lot to be done still your winter to go five three times in november that gets me nervous b other business to get i have a copy of this naming rights policy and i just i think it's something that would be helpful at some point to review  on the governance of the national guard and do we want to as a community you know income write a letter maybe or something where you can talk about it to our legislators to say sometimes go sour and a took going to the boss of the boss to make things better and i was very disheartened to hear the governor say that he didn't see any need to do anything more i'm glad to see that there is a will in the legislature but i just i think that there is there is a place for the commander in chief here and it's not only my opinion i've been hearing from constituents and people who are very concerned that this this limited response is not sufficient so majority leaders in both houses to write to the chair of the senate sexual harassment committee jeanette white the vice chair of general housing and military fear affairs  house of representative thomas stevens in addition to the governor in order to discuss governance now jimmy least brought up t j donovan that did not come up in my conversation with helen head  so i think that this is a leadership issue i really just culture is not just you know that bottom apples because a leader can welch it like that that's just the power of a have had some experience with the guard leadership and i think that they've you know maintained a decorum but at the same time i think sometimes they have not been the most forthcoming with the counsel about  information that we've needed and so when we see you know that there has been perhaps a dismissal of or in irons in other areas it's something that i've seen in our be that's a legislative we elect our representatives to legislature to represent us in all things state and and let them deal with it you know it's kind of like us getting involved with the nurses are involved with this really get  everything my general thinking is just that's a that's a state legislature deal but this is i haven't read i honestly have not read most of this i just haven't had time the last couple weeks with the end if you read the meaty digger articles probably unnecessarily inappropriately i don't have a whole lot of use for that but i'm just talking about quotes from senator dick massa for instance and another senator who said you know none of their constituents have contacted them and so they don't see a need and so i think that we're constituents and i think that the danger with anything i'm not sure is a counsel again it's now eleven thirty we can't do this tonight no no no but well i think the question is do you want to discuss a set a later date or discuss it off you know what each other i mean it seems to me we all have the option to write a letter that says to the legislature we just knew it so my question is you know every liquor license has to go through a process where the chief of police or somebody has to give an ok some of the insinuations in the digger article say that there is excessive consumption that occurs  there and if that's true and that's in violation of deal c laws right then something needs to be done so one question is now and i asked kevin earlier today is there a process revoking a liquor license that we've okayed and i'm just curious whether or not we have to do that so that's a question that i'm going to let you explore with the you know the lawyer because i just don't know what the rules are i think that's a fair question and this is a very pretty much general city now and they're driving home from work right that was not the subject of these articles there was a subject was this other facility within living that was separate facility oh really that's my under two bars on well there's