do that so here is some mathematical jargon but computer has become a tool to do mathematics that's why i look at it okay so here is a picture that i would like to go over that here there is a data collection system and there is a policy system so we digitize the policy using fuzzy logic which also came from columbia by professor sade so he has a way to say decision based on what kind of things we are looking at for example terrorists are going to inflict largest amount of harm so they are watching what you are doing so it's a game theory problem and we were very to save my life so that is the kind of compression i am saying and we are very happy to work with the linguistics people who try to who are teaching us how the grammar can really compress data because final thing we do  this junk of one to zero those numbers we need a fact so data is my mind nonsense from there you extract the information and from there from there you extract the decision which parton's to point at that time now if you transmit that then you are talking on a very robust intelligent system so that was the kind of things we are talking about so here we will get back again to natural disaster because i should not talk about philosophy i'm not are the things to talk about and these are the things that i took from the internet and of course brazil and china if you ask me what we should do in terms of development i don't know i will say look the people from natural disaster which can be done and that is also related to climate change ok if i don't say i'll be lying and they're both brazil and and china they are together ok am also there okay so now united nations has this conference on this disaster reduction but those are planning things okay i'm talking about the engineering idea so again going back to working with some engineers in in japan ok there are engineering methods available to predict landslides so we have to include that when we go to the climate conference saying that look we are talking about would like to quantify that so again to scare you so we understand one thing the severity of a natural disaster is what how many years it takes to occur right that we call return period everybody understands that except our politicians i guess or the people academics who present in nine in paris fifteen years disaster we understand fifty years disaster we understand and definitely fifty years  disasters than fifteen years right and in brazil it's happening the forest fires which were fifteen years disasters are happening in five years what does that tell you okay i am not making any judgment i'm just giving you you know avoid that and then i talk education and creation that is our human mind so those four things constitute four color problem and four color problem is a fascinating problem in mathematics meaning that you need only four colors to draw the picture of the world right once you have the model you can test why it is going to fail so the intelligent city will tell you why it is not going to work where your smart city is not going to work so we are on that fridge okay so again going back i think this kind of summarizes what we as engineers can do we can do everything to promote nutrition sanitation education and what i call recreation because  to say that you said your part was like the boring one now comes the boring part because we're talking about regulation in definitely no no definitely make possible that kind of development i think our goal is to achieve these kinds of development when we say that the regulation is not good yet or we need to develop new areas of regulation i think what we are trying to do is we need to change the social that comes with lots of regulations most of the countries regulate pretty tightly the the telecommunications so the first point that you will always see is like we need to expand broadband access if we if you don't have connectivity or me being or as in brazil were talking we may be talking about changing regulation how we did this for all this time now it's time to change we need to expand this so flexibility will be good it will be a willing to to intensify this another aspect work when you're considering information security if you make this vulnerable to these changes you are putting in risk the project itself so one of the topics we saw was roaming and we already seen some technical advances that would make union united states they're all debating another one is quality of sir all the telecommunications regulations we have in place they were thought for people to people communication when you shift this to mm communications to it but generally in brazil we saw this we are now hoping this this new way but the regulation is strictly mandates some very high standards so if you consider a device and topics that are on the table and another one that is it has two different ranges its identifier z so you need to identify these devices when we are thinking about public internet or the ip connection in general you can think about ipv but ipv is like limited to its number of addresses so we are seeing the shift to ipv brazil and i think china as well we we are seeing this moving fast but it's still a long road ahead but definitely this is one of the topics that you need to have when you are considering like these changes to make iot possible in the telecommunications here moving moving ahead to one of other big topics and during the discussions here with we have already heard it a lot privacy and data protection and data in general some countries have already developed a framework we are we see europe ahead of this with a very protective framework in the u s you have like secretory oh regulation as well but one of the things that we are seeing in very various privacy commissioners around the world they are they are starting to take a look at that is you need to like you may have the general of concent of how do you anonymize data but we are shifting very quickly to a new scenario and if you don't have like specific guidelines the industry will not be able to fulfill its prey its possibilities at the same time you may be putting consumers at risk or the privacy of this individuals risk so there are countries like brazil that where we need to have this comprehensive framework that we don't have yet we have like a lot of need to have guidelines need to analyze this in their in a different way we saw some efforts from your opinion itself in canada the privacy commissioner did a very comprehensive study on health health devices  how this is starting to be using retail if we consider the debates we are talking here about how this devices can be tracked over time in the retail industry we have a lot of possibilities but we need to make sure that that is it's pretty much designed a way to protect the consumer to protect privacy of individuals and at the same time make it possible to make these new developments in this topic we also have one other way but this is not related to privacy of personal data but it's also related to  a that we are seeing in the u s in europe union we saw this as a very different framework that is beside personal data there is a new debate regarding known personal data and how can you make that work for very comprehensive self regulation standard of privacy and security in farm data and it was one of the standards of the industry and at the same time the farmers accepted and basically what this frame  was trying to do is we need to have some guidelines about how can you use data in specific sectors and we're not talking about personal data we need these debates are very mature in some ways but here we're talking about ownership of another service provider of course in terms of innovation the members of the industry found that this was perfect but they they can have the data they can utilize it to make their service batters at the same time the farmers have the right to get their data and move to another provider that that is how you can like protect one side of the of the equation at the same time make it possible for innovation to move forward so we have debates in in data related to personal da but this is one aspect of the equation the other one is how can you deal how can you foster the use of known personal data for innovation and at the same time to make all the sides in this in this economy like work well another layer and this is definitely like a tough one and as our previous panel demonstrated you can have like different approaches but we need to consider it like a difference different rail layer because it has some very specific challenges its cybersecurity when we consider cybersecurity we have been dealing with these challenges since the start of the information age since the internet started we have been having challenges with cybersecurity at the beginning we have like th things like the end user needs to update its systems we have patches all the time the end user needs to focus on more things but one of the mantras we have in information security is that if you put that much pressure on the end user the outcome to be disastrous because the end user not have it don't have all the information that it needs to plan to protect itself from vulnerabilities zero days and all the other challenges we have so one of the points we are considering right now when you consider iot is that the challenge is we always have with cyber security are going to increases financially with more devices having software and they embedded in it with more devi have connection connect ibbity to the public internet the more the challenges will be because if you have one device with one vulnerability we're not talking about ten one hundred devices we are talking about one million ten million devices across multiple jurisdictions so one of the challenges is do we need to push forward regulation we saw the example of china and is one of the approaches we heard in brazil for instance we heard from one of the government branches that is basically formed by military officers they are very concerned about this and they are prepared to move forward with stricter approaches that is one of the things that we heard a lot and when you talk with the technology sector they are very scared of that service attacks and most of them were made by hackers that had the ability to like hack these devices and most of them seemeth the most most of them the vulnerability was i'd mean and passwords that were weak like a demeaning at me one one one two three four so these challenges is they increases financially not because the challenge is new but because the quantity of devices that could be exposed to it it's it's massive so i think one of the things that we try to to debate in the study and we saw as a possibilities the the private sector needs to act more on this so self is something very important if this could advance we could like start to grasp some core regulation but everything is on the table on this topic and and this is a challenge we need to face it  because windows xp have been on on on these devices for years and years and medical in critical infrastructure and they were not updated that were that's what the core the cause of the attacks so you can imagine that happen the same thing in even worse so information security is something important and one of the things we consider in the in the study was you you may you may not like advance regulation because that could kill innovation but when you consider like some very strategic instance like critical infrastructure then you have space and even the private sector is open to it in public procurement contracts to a more specific guideline so when we are talking about critical infrastructures then it's a different approach than general public general private devices that you can buy aside these three main topics there is some specific considerations that we saw that were  brazilian perspective one of the challenges how can you foster this in the public sector how can you make small cities be able to introduce these new kind of things how can you make possible that even in large cities that have the capacity to it how can you make it in a comprehensive way like securing rights making the public public the public goods more accessible in efficient way but one of the topics that we saw that was very we didn't have a consensus and that's gonna be for a long time it's the use of iot devices for public security we saw the europeans even call it started with a term for it like massive integrated multiple sensor installations at the same time the cameras that we already have for example a little bit of time with character recognition and you assemble all that together in a huge infrastructure with high speed connectivity well that brings some challenges because we have like cctv cameras for quite some time that have been a debate but what we are seeing right now is that these infrastructure is increasing its capability of all the types of information that you can imagine not only for chad conversation between people in the streets face recognition i could see if you have entered columbia have go to jfk where have you eat last night so one of the topics that we we try to bring on the table is that  authorities need to have this infrastructure is it something important to keep public security and we i don't think that anyone would question that but what we saw as a ground for maybe star consensus is that you need to have some basic lines where the state should not be able to cross because if they do with this kind of infrastructure you may have some very challenges when we consider like should the government be able to do this should citizens have its own privacy regarding some aspect so i think this these new infrastructures they are already being tested we have examples in brazil we have examples in germany in china in many countries around the world but i think we don't have yet a consensus about how can we establish this line where is the limit where do we are protected more or where do we like keep the intimacy of people well protected  and i think my time is almost over or over pass it but one last thing that it's also very complicated is all these challenges they face a different perspective when you go to health sector when we talk about health devices that you can buy like fitbit or when we consider that public not only public is repressed in brazil but the health sector in general they they also can benefit a lot with iot but but they specifically have more more implications when you consider not only privacy and security but also how can you use that information for traditionally like regulatory perspective zone just to give a quick example and then in people always gets care of it if insurance companies that you buy for health for your health could be able to gather or get information from third party providers about your health condition if you're running if you have alcohol behaviors or even if we consider like the infrastructure i already mentioned in the public sphere regarding all this this person have been going to some places dangers it lives in dangerous places if these companies could use this information to like discriminate you would be in a very complicated position from the perspective of economic efficiency it could make sense because the insurance company could definitely like differentiate between risky persons and persons that would probably not pose any risk of bringing more cost to it but from a social perspective and even more frenetic perspective there are challenges there increasing challenges so the insurance sector especially in the health industry they really would consider using this information and expanding this with iot but we must be very carefully about how we're gonna regulate this because i think the implications not only economically but socially they could be specifically dangers if we if we do not like set a very straight record on it i could go on where we have a list of thousands of regulatory problems that could scare you guys with but i think that this is like the initial landscape countries in general we have seen white papers studies policies they range between these topics once a specific more in one aspect than the other like brazil when we had like this huge section of privacy not only smart cities but privacy in general in the european context the telecommunication regulation was something that they saw it is very problematic they need to change it a lot of aspect but i think these are like the grand i'm very happy with professor does gupta's definition of security versus safety and when we talk about iot we usually talk a lot about cyber security but i've never seen anyone talking about cyber safety and following your presentation it seems that cyber security would apply for more extreme  absolutely like for example cyber safety my mind is a ransomware and cyber security will be when us government is hacked for some real money okay mm hmm korea can do that okay if they do it very good  where we have to clean up these words and the thing is also there is one thing so long as there is a profit motivation behind all these public services there is no way that we can do it now if i'm well very clearly defined and as a result you can safeguard lot of those things for example i know the health records by one industry in japan called carty que arte de pronounce it the german but people are getting older so staying senior people need ten younger people to take care of them so this is this is going to open up the market it's not going to constrain it under any circumstances unfortunately both japan like you know doles proposition of putting pipe patent on university if they can revoke that everything that knowledge that we produce is open domain ok then that's a better solution th so again going back to to entering said activation or in inside thing is created by god and the boundary data is created by the devil so this is this is not going to change mm hmm so with this thing in mind we have to evolve that having and because brazil is only doing this thinking about iot now one of the goals of the project is actually to learn with past mistakes and try somehow not to repeat them so for instance regarding the issue of connected devices one of the ideas that permeates the study is basically to bu contexts of safety and one of the ways to achieve that is for instance we assimilated a work that was done by mozilla the mozilla foundation in regards with what they call trust marks for iot so basically what they build was a framework of visually identifiable signs that can actually tell you as a consumer or even as an acquirer of those devices what that device actually is capable to do and i would love to ask jamon for instance to talk a little bit more about this trust marks and also for instance how do you see these issues of cybersecurity being addressed in the iot plan and what do you think brazil can do differently in order not to fall into this dilemma that professor does gupta basically raised to us that that's a very good point and one of the things then i think the mozilla the project that they call like the one of the things they are trying to achieve and that we didn't do for many times and in privacy we have that with the long privacy policies that almost nobody reads is that you need to make as we are facing a challenge now because all this device will be connected out these devices will have specific conditions that the consumers need to have at least some awareness we are once again trying to make alternatives to this long term so the not this the the user barely reads manuals so they wouldn't f initely not relieved like one other piece of paper that's called information security guidelines that they'll not read that so the the thing that mozilla was trying to promote and one of the things that we mentioned in the study as one of the possibilities for the industry in like a self regulation that could happen in the form of voluntary certification of devices that the industry could could settle this up could this one of the things we like maiden and analogy in brazil's that we develop some time ago some form of visualization of an energy consumption so once the user goes to store to buy some electronic that could be something that the industry could achieve at least at first before we can have this core regulation regime that could work together with the industry but for you to make a distinction of your project so the consumer would have more awareness of what it's going on with its device and at the same time you could like differentiate devices that have some quality some standards of security and others that don't have this is not perfect we definitely should not be like the the considering for a long time because they are aware that hacks in these kinds of infrastructure could be there could be devastating for publics public sector in general but aside from it we have a debate know for a quite long time that we have these experts in computer science that test all the time in cybersecurity as well they test the system they test devices but information does not flow easily between these experts the consumers the industry so one of the things that we considered was very important to do is cooperation you need to have some kind of institutional design to make this cooperation works in a sense especially for information flow because if you have information about vulnerabilities between this players consumers may not all the time use this information because they either lack the time or like the knowledge but if you make this information a variable a lot of parties c influence the debate could try to push push or this this project is not good its vulnerable so you can have more people wherever situation and things could go better it's one of the one of the things that you could do as well another topic i you could develop internally in a country one is one institution or a group of institutions that could coordinate among the public sector the challenges of information security well we saw this in brazil we have one specific  institution that nowadays among the federal government tries to do this but it's not yet yet developed and it's not open to public opinions to academia experts it's very strict  you could gain an efficiency you could also gain in coordination because if you find some very specific vulnerability one of the software's that the government are using you could spread this information throughout the whole network so all the other branches of government not only federal but state  municipal one could be protected against it so i think we have many options that should be put forward together there is no silver bullet here and you could even consider other options we saw in  the us some be partisan movement for i an iot bill of law that would stricken regulation in his insecurity the private sector that we talked about they were very scared of it but it's it's some proposal that it's also on the table but i think you and when you consider cybersecurity iot the most important thing is that you should attack in different perspectives there is no single solution to this problem besides this coordinate action in multiple projects at once that's great let me change gears a little bit and raise another topic that i think is important which is data collection on the part of the public sector so we've had some interesting cases in brazil for instance in the paulo in which the city has a very interesting bus transportation system in which all transportation cards are basically digital and of course by doing that you can collect passenger data where they take the bus course that caused a lot of controversy especially because of the issue of consent so if you take the bus every day it's very hard not to give constant because you simply do not have the option of saying well i don't want my data to be collected so i'm not going to take the bus anymore and like for the millions of people that live in some powell they need to take the bus because they need to get somewhere so in this context  one of the ideas that were aspired of this report was basically that the model of concent might be flawed for the public sector in many cases because if you are a public  l or a cdr trying to do a better service you will need data to do that so like bloomberg used to say here in new york you cannot if you cannot measure it you cannot manage it and the public administration definitely can make good use of data but what should be the limits for the use of that data and one of the ideas that came up in this study is precisely the idea of purpose so if you are taking the bus and you're collecting data from buses you probably should use that data to improve the transportation system and that would be your natural expectation as a user and not use that data in order to receive advertisement from third parties or even for the police to chase you if you are a fugitive unless you get a court order if you get a court order that's fine  but to let the police immediately connect to the data transportation system from the buses it seems a little bit out of purpose in this particular debate so my question to you is how do you see the limits of data collection in the public system is this a cybersecurity issue maybe and with that said how can we approach  d extreme things which says how the terrorism has to be mortal so if i am working for this web public transportation thing as i told professor greenfield he was the devil's advocate and i'm the devil i will work for the taxi company to figure out where to disrupt the transportation so that i can maximize my profit so that is the kind of technology and other things will always become unless you say that we are going to erase that after some time all encrypted in such a way that other people cannot use it so if we are even trying to find out that whether it is profitable or how we can improve i think there are other metric other ways of doing it which cannot be exploited by anything anybody else completely anonymous so they won't own tevan know who is coming up what but if you are taking a bus from one area statistically you can attach that ah what is the socio economic condition of that are ways of doing it but that goes in really you have to put some kind of different kind of paradigm into that what we call a live design kind of thing meaning that the design is not over with the building is built so live design starts when the people start coming into the thing so it is the use of the people which meets the design as opposed to the civil engineering design after the building is done i get fade i go home no but they actually th corporations terrorists but they have the same signature though i mean mathematically if you take that you cannot distinguish so i'm not called calling you know citibank as a terrorist but a mathematical signature is th going back to that you can see that what are the intent of those things and you can good thing in mathematics that there are only three kinds of extreme that can happen not for you cannot i mean it's proven natural industrial and and what we call the terrorism okay that means intentional industrial is also man made but not intentional natural we do not have so these are the three different really different kind and the mathematics are different for that so when we when we simulate them see that's where i think the computer power comes that we can simulate those things all the bad things that can happen all the things which can go wrong okay like  house to you know making the house habitable right so all these things going together yes and educationally i think we need a revamp of that we have to do i mean security engineering or security fantastic examples that we learn from the physical world thank you professor this is great especially because we are on the verge of debating the policy implications of self driving cars and  basically there's a famous example about this of mercedes benz basically announcing that their self driving car will take as a priority the protection of the driver in detriment of the protection of everyone else in the surroundings so basically if a crash is inevitable the car will do the maneuvers that are necessary to protect whoever is inside even if in the outside there like there's like twenty or fifty people and the question here is would you buy a car that would do otherwise like an altruistic car that would basically protect professor michael story who could join us thank you for being here with us so in the interest of time once again i would like you to make a few comments and we are going to wrap up  in a few minutes but you still have like i would say six minutes to give us your comments on this subject and i will save the last few minutes in order to get questions i see already some hands raised  but you are very welcome thank you for joining us thank you thank you for now do please forgive me for being so late blame it on the finance minister of brazil this is the day where you have the brazil summit in new york so the the bull mount of brazil was over there myself artist was with me at the  harvard club so please forgive me for being so late married to thank you so much my pleasure to be here and then colleagues well now do it had asked me to say a few words not necessarily directed to the internet of things but to the road technology play the role of technology in brazil in china's bigger picture strategy right and i as i was i was in i was in a cab coming up here i was remembering deadening one thousand nine hundred and ninety six i was a diplomat i was supposed to participate at a conference in south africa well the information society and development conference so there are two great things about this conference one it was hosted by nelson mandela and two we had the opportunity to interact with the head of the american delegation there's an economy that goes by the name of joseph diglettz mm hmm and i remember putting together some research at the time research development innovation where china is at two two and moving in very strongly to two five percent which is the overall average oacd countries spend in research development and innovation well you can say well this is of course the the child of china's famous capacity to plan and to strategize and i agree but i think there's something else there that is really that it relates to both the industrial policy models and the trade strategies adopted that explain it more than simply a decision on the part of the leadership to invest more in research development innovation and it's basically the fact that both brazil and china for the past forty years have tried to implement some sort of creative adaptation policies looking at the core producers of technology in the world and trying to emulate them the main difference i think is that where is brazil try to do that within an environment that favors import substitution industrialization which basically which page you quickly argues that of course we are going to be able to produce the technology ourselves but we'll do so in an environment that is insulated from the rest of the world china pursued creative adaptation creative adaptation with a view to conquered foreign markets right so is of course we want to industrialize this creative adaptation but we're doing so in order to be able to compete with the most important markets of the world so the creative adaptation that we saw in china had a lot to do with producing the same as what  as the leader so we have the technology number one let us clone let us copy let us let us learn from that but let us this is our reference this is what we have to produce we have to do the same but at a cheaper cost whereas brazil was just let's do something different right let  us let us let us do the very same thing costs are not very important because the domestic market is protected in my impression on out is that this trading nation strategy that unites both the industrial and trade policy rooms of china actually allow china to generate the necessary resources to achieve the scale of investment or indeed that you see today whereas in brazil we did not have the same thing it also allowed for another major difference that is a structure between the way brazil and  china approached the issue of technology in china today seventy five percent of r and d is coming from enterprises twenty five percent a combination of government expenditure plus universities colleges centers for research that are in the hands of government within brazil it's exactly the opposite brazil's not a communist country right so seventy five percent of r and d investment is coming from government twenty five percent from companies and half of the twenty five percent that's coming from companies is coming still from petrobras which is a state owned enterprises right so the the transmission channels there between the lab and the market and the generation of intellectual property rights not very strong of course brazil is still trying still coping with creative adaptation china has moved on strongly to creative destruction our own parameters given by joseph schumpeter as you know i probably i'm sure that you probably discussed this earlier today china is already number two in which is a pretty big umbrella you can put a lot of things underneath is in how you use ai tomorrow trade negotiations by the way now this is this is the project one of the initiatives that i'm leading now it's called into the intelligent tech and trade initiative because today augmented intelligence already can give trade negotiators access to data banks and to other sources of information that w better subsidize the way negotiators sit at at a trade roundtable it's very interesting how china is a leader in that regard and also according to this work that we're doing now how china is using ai to project the different possible outcomes of a specific trade negotiation say if you if you give away on tariffs here if you open code quotas and another product what are the longer something that the chinese traditionally do very well which is trade will be another very important difference in in the years to come i think we have to really focus on the case of brazil because it's one of the most important examples of how creativity creativity is not enough there's something else that must bridge the gap between that that camp in the camp of technology whereas the chinese perhaps the was not that dense but because of strategy because of the right policies because of the marriage between industrial trade policy and technology strategy china today is in a much is in a much better position thank you thank you michael that was great benefiting from this and i have two data points that are interesting so last year california police subpoena amazon to get access to microphone data from em from alexa and they are ready using these t store and to understand words to sell better advert advertisement for their customers and on the other hand a university of chicago undergraduate published just last month a study from the understand interest rates so if if this is not for the public safety and security so what's the point of not sharing this data very good let me get the one final question  great points that were made here but i suppose my my main question is as iot develops so so quickly the technologies and the products that puts a real strain on government's ability to effectively regulate them and so i wonder if you had any thoughts about instead of strict regulations what incentives you think governments are capable of or ought to use in order you know primarily from my perspective to increase the security of iot devices instead of just type of tracking technology in the products of the manufacturer or whether they'll will you know allow companies that are foreign companies to ask for it to be embedded before before implanted it and also a second point is that we already have th you know you know we all use each other's products so it's almost impossible to have a glow a brazilian solution or a chinese solution that doesn't influence other countries right so thank you for the questions let me handle to likes it's it's very important for two perspectives one the consumer protection of privacy and if i'm not wrong amazon were ready to fight in court but then the subject like accepted to give to the police we'll go to the end of the court system to protect its user privacy on that topic and it's very important because otherwise you could send the wrong message to the consumer so alexa would would give me away to the cops would be a very complicated public public relationship a public pr message but yeah one of the things that we saw is that there are two when you consider the public lyft and others where the san paulo was the like the first city to in brazil to propose to regulate this this new ecosystem and one of the things that it did but it's still fighting the right way to do legally the right way to do is to have okay you can operate you can operate under these rules you paid this tax and you give me data in order for me to make the public transportation system better so in this data assure that the governor said hall has lots of information about where is the traffic jams what can i do to make it food to going to go better i think this is a reality in in general we have these thinking about that but one of the challenges we see is that there are no not many guidelines yet at least in brazil one of the challenges we see is that they're not guidelines posted for the public authorities to use this data in a way that they are compliant with the rules we recall in the during the study one one many own member of the ministry of health stating that you know you guys needed needs to settle this up make me a comprehensive framework for privacy and include me with guidelines because right now we have a lot of data but we are afraid to use it we just saw the uk example where they did some things of health data and there was an entire commission because there was some flaws on it so we we are afraid that right now we don't have extremely saying like the guidelines for what i can do what i cannot do so if i do anything outside what i'm not sure we it is the law binding me i'm gonna be prosecuted today later so i  think the public sector in some countries i could say this by brazil they have data sometimes sometimes they don't but the technology is there and they can use it but in other instance the data is there but they are afraid to use it because they are not  it's not clear where the boundaries are that they can use that data so in order to avoid prosecution they will not do anything that could be dangerous that is one of the one of the thoughts about your your  you can do for that very strict regulation could be very dangerous to pure innovation but what can we do we saw some very clever ideas along the along the road in the study one of the things and and that is very connected to what you just mentioned the seventy five percent in the financing projects that you could have the public so public money flow into this new development of startups and iot projects you should have specific requirements for safety and security so you would like mandate ok you want to receive public funding that's fair enough but you have a security by design model so if you don't comply that you won't receive the public funding that's one way to think on the pony pro another way and that was at the beginning of the study somebody thought okay we give like tax breaks for companies that go cream local go green on now that other things we not only energy consumption but at the same time gas pollution so if we give tax breaks for this why not give tax breaks for companies that develop devices that are secure that are private compliant privacy compliant so at least we saw this turns to like not generally used ways to think about this issue but could be used you could either think of financing projects in this way or giving tax breaks to alternative very short question is it possible i'm again very stupid question could be the volume of data that you are allowed to sell right you have to put that in the public domain and then put a software that i can use my thing with the thing that the companies can get only the updated one they cannot go back so that way you have collected my data and you want to buy ok why but this is available in the open i can go and collect it and but you cannot go back to that huh then why about not giving a tax break for security innovation instead of going to the traditional like strong regulation that would probably queue innovation in some sense we even asked some information security guys that okay so we're gonna mandate this type of requirement and they were yeah and i think that was one of the very important things that we saw is that you need to have policy need to have debates and regulation but these needs to be explicitly specifically tighted to the technological side because all the solution complete that music that relates to your question there as well because that's exactly what we are going through so we are deploying these devices right now without asking the questions in regards of their f implication for our lives and what they mean and i think we are already seeing some collateral effects so the affirmation botnets there are you know devices that have been captured by that the work that brazil is doing and in china is doing i think is extremely important because there are no ready made solutions we are probably going to have to fix the car while the car moving because the car has already been moving for some time and the car has a lot of problems so i think that's one of the reasons we are here marcus you are a final comments please yeah it's just that i'm very interested in the perception that  regulations are important but many of these problems are international in nature yeah so we have to avoid what would be the inertial course of things which is a clash of legislation impeding the technology keeping the technology firm from advancing in the s i was a delegate to the united nations commission on international trade law and back then we worked on the so called model law for electronic trade the model electronic signatures and and it was beautiful because it was pretty much the same legislation so not only the technology but the legislation itself would be in communications creating what you know desired international harmony in that particular regard so the same way we talk about curators as as important elements in teaching the technology the rights and wrongs we should we should have the same approach to to legislators as well yes so let me lives are going to be surrounded by them and in a certain way directed by them as well so we better have like a very careful consideration of what values are we actually including  devices because they will materialize themselves in the forums that we live and i think this is actually very important with that i would like to ask you to help me thank our panelists this was really great