my name is john churchmen and i'm a photographer and a farmer and a graphic designer and while i do a lot of different things i also i i like to build things i was i guess the you know it's interesting you get in these situations and have a facebook friend who cannot introduce me to any here so she had wanted to meet me because she liked my treehouse i had been i built a tree house is summer actually it's on top of  i have been using facebook for maybe three years i think when i'm trying to think when i first joined and i do several things i have just a regular account as john church and i have a john churchmen photographer account which i use from time to time and i'm actually sort of shifting more of that way because that gives you it an easy like type of thing another account i do it's called the family farms and this is actually  this is an account down the gentle valley as you can realize it's a it's a dairy that i've been working with and i basically have created all their labeling and all their i run their facebook for them and so it's a milk and ice cream company and so they're primarily you know farm related images and that type of thing these are these are primarily sent in to me from various people from down there the farmers so i keep this kind of going so this is a truly a real business social media site that i find works it works quite well for them to get get them out and about but i'll go back to my the one that's more local here those are actually not my sheep those are my father in law's sheep but people i have a smaller flock of about twenty and we had a series a bottle lands that i raise and i had a whole series of videos that i well this is kind of a us a fairly sort of standard well i do a lot of images that are scenic images of of landscapes and then i do things with favor my life this was i think i might have submitted this or i'm going to submit it for next year's fall maybe they'll use it for their cover that i did the vermont life cover for the fall i think it wasn't this year was last year here's a here's a quick little one i'll play you a little little video that i  i never post anything political and i don't really try to post anything that's very controversy or and i primarily i just try to post images that are things that occur to me in my sort of my everyday life that i think  facebook is if you're on the air you find there's a lot of negativity continual streams of what's going on and i so what i'm trying to do is just share you know the things that give me joy and make me and my day to day life which is primarily what i share on facebook is the farming that we do and then also the imagery the beautiful imagery around vermont which is kind of a continual joy now this when i also use facebook to actually you know it's like monetizing to make make money this particular image i posted last year and after i posted it i had well i think it's four or five fine art print orders which was you know that was moves over like a thousand dollars worth just from this image from from a post so there is a way there are ways to make money i i get a lot of contracts i just did a i just did a law firm down in burlington that bought twenty large frame pieces from me from facebook facebook contacts which was a very nice contract and i generally have gotten a number of galleries and a variety of things that come to facebook so it does actually it works very well for what you know what i use it for this particular image that i posted this morning is somebody had asked me for a card well evergreen herbs you can see so i posted this and i've kind of put it out to people that they would like it for a christmas card you know send me a message or to sell the print again coming up for the christmas season so what you try to well you might navigate for me because it kind of gets me tied up the really on line very well i like this particular one here if you go back to it what i'm asking people here is so this is the image i'm offering it as a card i'm offering it as a fine art prints and i'm offering it as a as also like a limited edition print so the saying is you also what you need to do is put the link in so people can immediately go to where you want them to go so here i have a link right here to go to you know to my gallery and then the here's the image actually on raquel studios which is my gallery so you can go now you can go and if you go up there's a place that you can go immediately and buy that by the image so the idea is that you want to have a way to send someone so they can they can actually do it because a lot of things you'll find is that people say oh that's a beautiful image can i buy it but if you don't have a link they forget it in a few days or they almost immediately so fine even if you get them you know so you're always if you're trying to actually use it to make a living you need to provide a direct way for them to do that right  because so many times things are in immediate purchase like in galleries they come in they see the images hanging on the wall they can buy it it's a size they want they get it they think well i'm going to think about that and they might call you or they might not then that you usually those don't happen so you need to use facebook if you're going to try to use it for a business is to put into it what you want your customer to do and also see it as i see it really truly as a as a business and promote yourself and i don't think people really a lot of times people are posting like they're either you know what they're having for lunch or all these various things and people don't really care so you know it certainly i a great tool if you just you know using it for friends and that's where network but what we're really what i'm looking for is what i can do with it to actually promote what i do because what i really want to do is just stay home make that's what i do make images and sell them and play golf but i used to play golf with don but i got i got too busy building treehouses so i doubt and you know take care of my animals and then i also what the other thing is i'm trying to always send you you could maybe open the foxes or is a nice one i'm also trying to send you to to my you know to these sites where you can buy my images this is a fox that was running alongside the road and then this is i do a lot of imagery of say the autumn light that's kind of a specialty that i focus on and and i mean vermont's got such beautiful light and it's you know it's a beautiful place to take pictures are there any questions and i know that the light's going to come in under the dark clouds in the fall and you all are probably pretty familiar with that beautiful golden light you get for like a split second thirty seconds and what happens is when the sun under the dark cloud it down and right over the lake champlain the rising i believe it's the rising heat off the lake opens a gap in the cloud base so there is this point when the sun dips right before it drops over the adirondacks it shoots a ray back underneath so what i do is i go to a couple of spots this is over at casey's field where i can actually set up in the field i'll i'll put my camera out there and i had i posted this in some moments some somebody a facebook friends that i saw you had in the filth and there was you know it was dark and gray but there was just that thirty second blip when the sun came through for that moment and that's a that really is a fall light that interests me i find that just a fascinating beautiful it's like it's a very spiritual know very mystical light and an old time vermonter and you probably appreciate your the pastor an old timer montor when i was first up here and i can't do his accent i mean i'm actually from the south i'm from virginia  but i moved up here in eighty five he said to me yup that's jesus light by god and and i had always kind of stuck with me because if if if i were to imagine jesus coming to earth that would be his light you know this beautiful golden glow that that i think that the monitors we know that you really have to for things like that on a dark in the fall if you're talking about photography earlier you have to know where you want to go and know that you have to be there and ready for that particular shot because it's so brief you know if you're shooting leaves out in the woods or whatever that doesn't really go any time for that and then i'll talk about the composites will go back to the fox picture which is a good one this one here i was actually taking my daughter to school and this fox was running along the road so i actually photographed him out of the car window as i was travelling by so he's kind of a blurry and then if you slide it up you can see that he's now had a moon in the background and all these other things so that's actually a composite of putting together multiple elements so i do sort of a fine art i do a lot of different animal prints we go back i'll show you the how now this image people always ask me how did i get that moon behind that out like in the moon is the moon is you know perfectly it's in focus you can see the moon you can see the al so there are multiple levels of focus going on there because you normally if you photograph a moon and that's actually done with a five hundred millimeter lens on a tripod you know it's i'll do that as an exposure and so the moon itself is a separate exposure and then the owl was actually shot in a very got underneath and it you know he i think that's a young juvenile male he sat there and he looked at me and i took his picture so then literally what i did is i stripped him the al the the tree the branches everything kind of coming out and then i montage it into the darker background you know put the moon in and then created an image which is kind of the is a lot of what i do i'm very much enjoy photographing the various animals you want to a sheep picture actually which i do a lot of the three sheets this is this particular image is probably been one of my best sellers ever this is snow is on the left he's the he's my my ram and then that was wooly in spirit and they were sort of some of the first people i have snow is actually still alive he's ten now he's a retired ram and  he actually he lives in the pen he has it he has a he has a kind of a barren you that stays with him in there and there has ollie the new my new ram ollie who was the little bouncing guy he's he'll be two this january he's got a big set of horns and when he was butting snow and it wasn't working well he was going to you know but this particular image they were shot they actually were in that position they were but there was actually a finch right across in front of them so they're waiting for me so i took the fence out and then i cleaned it up and i kind of that background is my lower field so that's not that much of montage but i use photoshop to clean up images in macon because i'm not i do things i do a couple of different things i do imagery for say vermont life of vermont life stuff you can't mess with it's got to be a straight image if you go back i'll show the vermont life cover i did this was the fall cover for my for my  life two thousand and thirteen or twelve might have been it was a year or two ago now this is also it just that's just a straight image and so what i did is i shut that off of a tripod i do a lot of a lot of what issue i'll shoot from a tripod so i can do a really long slow exposure and i do multiple exposures all shoot at different you know to quote to get a to get just what i'm looking for you know i was looking for the the reflection and the color and the vibrancy and so i'll do a multiple exposures to generally am either underexposing or slightly underexposing so i get more of a saturation of color because general in also i primarily shoot off of a manual mode i have certainly a fully automatic camera but i'll use the manual mode the as you get i find that what this is actually done with an old i use a set of very old they're technically they're antiques now but they're  they're very old manual tamarind lenses which have a very nice glass in them and they're very heavy duty but i'll shoot them on a manual mode on a tripod and set them up in so everything is really done manually then i'll change my f stops until i get just the exposure i want but a lot of times when you're shooting things if you're using an automatic mode it's it's making a choice for you and it's either it's either going to knock out the highlights or it just isn't quite what you want  me for a safer anything i do for my life is a very straight shot like the one up on the vermont state house i do a lot of exposures this is done this is a multiple this one is done  i'm exposing manually for the state house and then i'm actually using a flash is a follow follow flash in the flash is what will give you the sparkles off the snow so it's actually a slow exposure and then you had a flash  and it illuminated that's how you can get that type of effect if you ever wondered how you go down to like church street and see the beautiful things coming down the exposure well if you just shot it as a flash picture it looks really crappy yeah but if you shoot it you shoot at man shoot it for shoot off a tripod and you'll shoot it that was maybe a that could have been a two second exposure but then you use what you call a curtain flash which is in the end you just send a flash through it and if you have a digital camera that has that exposure on there but if you just said i want to shoot a flash picture of this it can only expose so far so technically when your i mean i love shooting night imagery and use a tripod and take slow exposure shooter manually and play around you know change or f stops like a lot of times if i'm shooting off of a tripod i might shoot a twenty second exposure at night and then set the f from saving wide open  shut all the way down to like an f twenty two so i get as long that you know as much depth of field as i possibly can get and then the other option the other way to go is we'll go back and see if i have other this is actually a jewel in the wintertime i am always to figure out how to entertain myself so i shoot a lot of ice patterns and ice crystals and this was actually the sunrise coming through my side window and so i was shot off of the tripod with a macro lens  primarily exposing for the crystals and then you know playing around with my exposure until i could get some of the sunrise to kind of you know so i could capture the sun coming through but i was saying when you're playing around in photography you can use your f stop if you set it like really tight there's a thing called book a and see if i can find one of those this is this one shot is a if we go back anyway whatever not  that i'm showing the exact example but bouquets when you say you should a lot of c b s in the summer and you want to get the be in perfect exposure and then you're trying to get the flowers kind of drop out of exposure behind that so it's really focusing in and that say the f stuff is really wide open because you're shooting at maybe a two thousand for the second to catch a bee in flight so aphids is a really good thing to play around with if you're you know if you're interested in photography is just a lot of my image are just as around the farm because i don't travel i used to do i was a stock photography for and still am and so i spent a lot of time travelling up and down around around the u s photographing different places but i found that as i get older i don't travel much at all so i am going to virginia in a couple days but this was just going down to feed the let the sheep out in the morning as i'm walking up you know you get that beautiful mist in the morning after  sunrise that's when the sun's rising through after there's been a rain at night and it just it comes through and illuminates everything and so a lot of my imagery just takes place on the farm these days newsletter that i have been rather remiss about sending out that is a you know that i was posting giving away tips and things and kind of driving people to my to my actual to my website and so i do that i certainly have a twitter account but i haven't really figured that one out to take for for what i do you know out here shooting the geese you know so i haven't really done that much with that  the well i we do the analytics i showed you all the schindler family farms that gives you all the analytics about the likes how many but what i'm finding and the reason i've been maintaining more of a personal site is i think you get a better reach because once you have a business site they want you to they want you to promote it and pay money to get your to get your message out there and there's been a real there's been a real drop off on the reach like that like say that image that i this is a beaver from the other day kind of a so that was just i have a beaver pond on the lower what i found is that on the business site like the shadow family farms if we run promotions you know promote this image will get you ten thousand and in front of ten thousand people what they're really doing is monetizing facebook to make you you know promote it and if you don't promote it then you're from a business point of view you get seen less and less and less and i find that when we first launched the shanta family farmers who were getting reaches of say with eight hundred or a thousand people were seeing it and now it's like two hundred to three hundred because we're not really paying for it that much as soon as we start pushing it and paying for it it pays for itself but on your personal ones if you scroll down a little scroll down a few like these you can keep going go through that that was for veterans day keep going this one here click on that one a minute this particular image rising that had two hundred i think it had over three hundred shares and it had i think it was close with thousand likes so that gets you know i so i sold a lot actually made a good bit of money off that image and  and when i post you know when i post links and you know i can i can see when i had interest people you know they send me the message me or they you know i can if i can finish my website they can  immediately buy it right there but i think there's a real problem with facebook if you want to pay for it as a business site you can promote it but if you're not paying for it you're not going to you don't get any traction from a business i mean you're doing yes we have we use we we do mail gentoo and all that is in the mail chimp's great and in oh that's one of those things that we were doing mail chimp last year for a while and then i got really busy with the account virginia which is sort of taken pretty much all of my creative energy and it was what we did is we had to design all the all the labels all the ice cream all the milk labels i've been traveling back and forth of virginia every month so that's been kind of a continual stream of launching a milk milk and ice cream company because we did all the marketing and their marketing all their facebook all their labels so i've done a lot of back to my if you go back to my web site yeah right here if you go over if we go over this way this is my mail chimp right up here so what i'm pushing you to do is sign up today and join me to join us for inspiration monday so if you click here so you fill this in and you subscribe and then you'll get my newsletter and so really what that is is driving you know this is for a very specific people who are really interested that's what you're trying to do and that is find people actually will buy from you or really follow you you know facebook is is good but it's really converting people in facebook to actually do something is where where is where where it can be a real problem so that's why when i showed you that post before i had a very specific place for you to go and so you have an action that you can do that's what i what i try to push for is that i do a facebook post that i'm you know generally i'll frequently post an image and then i'll actually post the linkage right there in facebook to send you off to my website so that you can buy the image so that's kind of how i how i've been using it in the reason i'm still using primarily just your free account as i have and i think of around six hundred friends now and and that's just those are actually just people who e mail me and want to be i don't send out i ha don't normally asked many people unless they do a series of comments or something they say nice things and i'll send a mini a request let them know that be happy to be their friend thank you when i  website is really hard so if i'm just say posting on my blog or and i do have a blog they can find but it's but how do they how do they get there and  facebook i think from what i've heard it's like if you get about two thousand friends it's fairly it goes fairly well so i've been sort of working toward that as a as a goal and then i i'm looking right now i'm i'm sort of running and posting the same time what i post on on john church my post on jon churchmen photographer which is my business side and as you know as you build that in the easy thing about the  a business facebook posting is people just like it they don't have to send you the friend request and think that you might report them to the facebook police or do something like that which you know i'm happy any of you all can please send me and request that be happy to that you're you know you're promoting well it's interesting to take twenty maybe twenty is a is a good rule because you know that is it is is certainly a good rule in terms of if about say the people who express an interest you know if i could sell you know out of a hundred percent of twenty percent of you know of those people actually bought something would be great it's much smaller number than that that's a good question i don't actually promote a lot of other people's i mean what i do is i do comment on other people's things i mean i i generally try to comment and i follow things as long as it's i mean i i stayed completely out of politics as last i don't do that because that gets very contentious immediately and a lot of my relatives down south are very conservative and i come from a very conservative background so needless to say the tea party is more of a they like it more than i do and so i just stay away from that and but i think in terms of what i'm doing i primarily i'm just using it as a sort of a gallery function where i'll post like i only post about once a day and out so i'm not actually on it that much i'll take i try to do one you know like if we go back to facebook so now we have to see how many people are so this is the one i post this morning it's gotten so far i don't know how many people but what i try to do is i'll i'll post an image like this is the image for image and it's got so they'll probably get a hundred like yeah and so what i try to do is like this one here i you know this was from wandering around i took a picture of it just a water pattern i do a lot of ones and i generally try to find out describe what i'm doing and i try to find a quote that goes with it has actually had a line of cards which is brick houses cards which you can buy them in the local stores i didn't bring any with me but there is a line of quote cards so it's so well what i generally try to do if i'm is make something that people you know brightens their day you know people say that they really they love the love the quote or you know this was just you know as you said on the hillside or lie prone under the trees  by a mountain stream you know tied into mounds stream the great door that does not look like a door opens so it's you know trying to do something that has a certain resonance with people that they that they they enjoy  because i think i find with facebook and i also i try not to feel like i'm always trying to sell something to you you know i want you just to enjoy it and hopefully as you know i'm using it to build awareness as an awareness builder as when i do a post and it gets picked up and say gets fifty or sixty or seventy shares that's only the shares i see and i mean i see my images they circulate back around i've had images that come back and also when i'm putting out images i always put a copyright them and i'll put multiple copyrights on and because what people do is they strip your copyright off so i'll generally put the one the most prominent one in the corner then i'll put a couple up through the image so you know i make it hard for them to take it and also i'm only putting him out it's a seventy two d p i by ten so they're not there's nothing you could really do with it but i had one which was a series of geese that are flying in sort of a heart formation that i shot a few years ago and i saw it come back around and it had like over i think close to two hundred thousand shares and she didn't have my name on it anymore it had been stripped out and somebody had sent it out and so what you put out on social media got to be aware that people just take it and do whatever they want with it so i never put high i never put anything that that they can take that's of of that and i and i am bad it was a series of watermark so that if they do strips take it they have to actually do a little photoshop work to take them out and i also am aware that they're going to take it and just i don't really worry about it that much so i just try to create more images all the time and there are other questions got a new friend here we can see if there's somebody in the room confirm her so you can see all the people i'm not confirming you get a lot of spam requests from people who came in there he could go sure yes i added a new a new photo and there it is but the yeah this is just the on the personal one you yeah this is this is it we can show you a picture of my grandmother and my uncle  you know that's my my grandmother mack and my uncle houston they were they were both presbyterian ministers and preachers just to let you know i come from a very religious background converted and they they're actually there but you know it's funny right i know but the other thing it when when i was you know doing doing you know more when i was pushing it you were looking at say well you got fifty percent open your you're your male chimp which is pretty good you know when you're when you're sitting on a list and you know the facebook certainly is you are competing so what i generally try is to put i don't put a lot of things out there i'll put i'll try to put one really nice post a day and let it go  all right when we can you can play that one for a moment you can hit hit that i think well that's not mine come on there it is well that's that's one of my mug shots anyway i had sold subaru they bought one of my mud not this one they bought another mud image from me that i had photographed a while back this is this is the part about you know you have to when you're in it you just need to photograph what's around you  really wish i was the beach you know but we're in mud so and so i had to brew actually pay me a whole lot of money to buy my mud pictures for a subaru ads and they ran those for a while so was it i actually tried to work out that they would give me a subaru but they didn't do that but i did ask them to pay what i said you know would be great you gave me a subaru let me drive it around and i'll take pictures of it going through the mud and they didn't give me one but it was i think you know i find that while trying to do is is every season has its it has its beauty i mean we went through an incredibly beautiful fall it was a long beautiful fall and now we're really into the stick season so right now i'm starting to look at more images that are graphic you know things that do really well is black and white oh sure you can play it it's kind of funny season often means headaches for drivers that's right but for one local artist mudd is his muse jennifer reading reports i shoot a lot of things that people don't normally take photographs i'm very much involved with taking pictures of you know the season the demand and for local interesting shot of it when you can really see the detail of it and and where the car tracks have gone and all that it's not really about going out when it's a pretty blue day and taking a picture is that to me is not it doesn't make is for a very interesting photograph and churchmen this fascination with mud is really paying on one of his photos of these rocky roads was recently picked up by subaru subaru selected one of his older images depicting muck that would be a small miracle for any car to plow through it's been running as part of subarus national campaign since mid february but the essex artist is no stranger to snapping shots for national advertisers for fifteen years he's made a living as a stock photographer what's really nice about it is that you just are taking images of your life you and not necessarily setting up a scene that's not so much about necessarily a pretty picture it's more about an image that will tell a specific story but one look at churchmen is work and it's obvious that he has the art of pretty down pat jennifer reading channel well i've been a member of frog hollow for many years and i was at the board meeting down in middlebury and i come out of a come out and i'm in downtown middlebury and it's snowy wet rainy really nasty but the lights are pretty and so i kind of braced the camera against the side of the building and i photographed the street and it was a it was a it was a fun image and i put it into i'm with getty and corba so the stock agencies i'm with right now but i was i've been with they keep i've been with a lot of different stock agencies what they basically get in corpus bought everybody so all my images and it's up there and i have i know three four thousand images online that you can go by so i sell images every every month i just get a check which is great royalty checks show up but that was an image where i photographed it and if you have your camera and a lot of times like shooting mud you know what i try to do is instead of taking a picture say right here i get right down in it and put your camera right in the track and then play around with you know if using autofocus you can kind of play around and shifted around but you know really try to make it well juicy is a good word for mud if you're going to shoot this he wanted to be really sloppy and say you take advantage of what's there but the pat metheny cover was just a wintry snowy kind of one of those was was good but stock is is another one of those things that was really great about ten years ago fifteen years ago and now because everybody has cameras everybody can afford to do it when i started you know  shooting slide film and you know nikon's were nikon's or canon had really good cameras really good lenses but there was this kind of cachet of being you know professional photographer and  so you know you shot and there were there were not everybody had that capability but now with the technology that there is you can go get it for you know three hundred dollars you get a beautiful camera that will do everything for you you don't even have to know how you just have to point it technically i mean i do turn into manual and use in that way as i find i get better results when the cameras choosing a focal point and all that it you know little to whatever but  you know talking about what you were talking about is that everybody now has the capability of shooting really great pictures with your i mean your you know your your cell phone i mean your cell phone has  megabytes you know and now they're coming out twelve's so technically when i first was shooting digital was like six and the stock industry required twelve so i would shoot montages and strip them together to build a bigger image so i could get it up to the the make a bike that they wanted but now i mean my camera now my top camera shooting you know twenty five megapixel and so i'm getting you know sixteen by twenty's at three hundred megabytes i mean there's three hundred d p i i mean it's beautiful stuff that you can get out of these cameras and i mean that cameras like was an eight hundred dollars and the lenses cost a good bit but i mean the technology is there and so the whole once the stock agencies have them they promote them and like right now it used to be when i first was doing it you're getting like seventy percent of the sale the stock agency got thirty now you get thirty percent of the sale of stock agency gets seventy you know continual stream money but those images of been out there for many many years and they kind of go out into the market so any other questions about faceb getting yeah i think that i view it as as i said before it's like awareness building and it's also there's and i try to you know authentic and so i you know i shoot the mater i shoot my sheep or it's telling an authentic story and it's it's it gives people something that they can you know when i play like my little little ali video which there was a longer one if you go and you can if you google it just put ali in the gamble come up there's like a four minute one that i actually put together and that got a lot of interest and i think it's if you see it as a way to tell a story and that what i'm ultimately looking for is you know when i put out a calendar or potentially work working on a book  want to have an audience that's receptive that's been following this and and would would buy it you know the booker and also come christmas time i hope one of you buys a card or a you know or you following me you'll buy something because you can actually you know the you can relate if you follow the little lambs you can kind of relate to the kind of know them people are always asking me oh how the ali doing or you know what happened to button are these you know these little lambs we had and and so in that way you know i generally am always trying to just tell a story and make you know make people have a moment in their day that they you know i'm always happy when they say you know that just made my day for me that particular moment was you know you touch me on that you know that verse that was really a great verse and that image really you know it spoke to me and it feels like in this world that we live in i mean a lot of us are pretty isolated now you know we live in vermont for a reason i live a farm and quite honestly i never go anywhere you know nick said it was great see i' so yes i do i do dress up occasionally and but i mean my goal is just to figure out how i can just stay on my farm take care of my animals build tree houses and actually the it's interesting the tree house is always i have all these if you want to my tree house so it's going to become like an air b n b site and you know you get a lot of money for that i have to put up some goal really is just to be able to stay home and take care of these things i want and have you know share my experience of the farm and i actually am very involved in food photography now and really working toward  you know i work with a co op and i have another venture that i'm getting into with new england one area now i used to do all their work for a while so we're in the process of reengaging with them so  so in that way when i was working with them i would take pictures of my lattice and my turkeys and my all the animals that i have and i put them into their catalog so i use them for that type of thing so those as i reengage with them i have a heritage turkey flock and i mean vermont's a real you know it's at the pinnacle of the food movement so a lot of where i'm going right now is really focused on food and you know healthy food you know that you grow self you know sorts and you know i'll go in and there's certainly things that i look for but it's like the continual flow with facebook it seems like there's these continually passing along these things that are premade up these little things you know the little means or whatever they call them and you know who cares really right you know it's like you know if i could figure out how that in my facebook stream which is all sorts of authentic experiences of people were having and that in the way they were sharing them i think if you if you can do that then people people will come because i think people are looking for that they're looking for something that is authentic in their lives because there's so little that is you know when you're dealing out there that if you can find that in and a side i think that that encourages and then you kind of you know you create a back and forth where people you know it's not i also need to make a living so you know it's not just i'm just doing my my wife often thinks i'm to sort of do it but i do point out that you know that actually sold in the soul and that soul and i got this show from that and and i just actually i saw a post i had a post from melinda moulton his down at union square and she says you've got to do a show down here and i said well sure i'd be happy to do a show and and so i get a lot of show requests and i had a request the other day you know came and said please you know post your stuff on the site we're trying to build a by a local site so when you post some images i said well of course i'll do that too so i think there are ways if if you can kind of build an authentic following on facebook it can be very useful in that way