me to the crucial evidence that the two video witnesses testified to with with the iraqi kurd and telling me what they said that you considered to be crucial evidence either as the counts fifteen and sixteen or something else so you can go however you want and whatever order i mean just begun marlowe however you want to do it what  armless are you talked about crucial and i don't i didn't see anything in the record that indicated that either of these two people gave anything that could ever be described as for two days when only one day of present ok but but but counsel so i'll go through what i think some of the evidence was and you can explain to me why you think this is crucial we had original notes the altered notes that had been submitted to try therof honest testimony that she created the original notes and not the altered notes and with the money that they didn't train identified in the altered notes and didn't create them and fiestas testimony that harrison's direction she created the altered notes and submitted them to try care so often accurately reflecting what the actual testimony is how could these two witnesses have understanding it correctly and the testimony was this wasn't a patient who was treated why wouldn't the signature on file entry in box twelve constitute the type of questions so i'll say it if without invitation so i'm going to start with the aggravated identity theft issue that certainly most of the cases that deal with aggravated identity theft even with regard to submitting written documents dealing with actually improperly assuming someone's identity or forging their signature on a document that there is a circuit court case from another circuit michel i believe that or michel that goes further than that but i mean the government's theory  person's provider id number to me that isn't exactly within the traditional mole of identity theft where you're actually impersonating another person especially where you're actually being prosecuted for the fraudulent submission itself why should this type of conduct be doubly punished both for the fraud which congress obviously intended to criminalize but for  government presented overwhelming evidence that the provider didn't provide the services in this wasn't the provider id and even that the that the patient didn't receive the services but that that is why you got fraud conviction why should you also get an identity theft conviction or basically putting phony information on a claim form that doesn't involve a ford signature or actually trying to assume the identity of another person a rendering provider who is the real person and then we have the the identity of someone else including that important in the eye which is unique to this fear is that  supplier that the testimony at the trial was the box thirty one signature was that's on file as harris a signature not a provider or act that is my understanding so she's putting th in under her own name and she's according to the government on the jury phoning up the information on the form in your view are there any limits to when identity theft can be prosecuted if you put down here so with regard to the the summary charts is it your is is it the government's view that we should be looking at this issue for abuse of discretion or plain error and if you think it's plain error why why is that your friends argument wrong about having for served on the relevant issues the sole of action needed in the trial kuharich to the summary exhibits was that they were not sufficiently voluminous to justify the summary that was the only objection that was made it was conceded in the trial court that the underlying data was accurate and that the summaries of the notes i apologize for not i know that you just a lot of issues floating around here there are so in carter the on the the primary issue when carter was that there were bible alternatives available what happened in carter was that we had a a  single and absolutely critical witness who was at the time seven months pregnant and invited by her doctor not to travel for presumably the two months and perhaps a little bit after that  daughter was so close in time to the to the trial that it would have disrupted a lot of other things the government asked the court to permit either the use of the existing deposition  if we disagreed with you and if we found that carter was a pleasurable or it's the government's position as to whether the error was harmless or not if we find that there was an error it was it was clearly h harmless but let me do one more sentence if you don't mind on why this is not the same situation as carter so i think it's important to understand both the role of the evidence of these two witnesses in th the evidence of those particular counts was in fact overwhelming without their testimony we had in count fifteen we had that the notes that were made by for each of them both testified as to which set of notes was in fact accurate and one that was admitted was false and that's all without the testimony of the of these two parents the parents right yes and my understanding is that there was our evidence that showed that the amount that she could get was limited by the rags and thus the ended loss amount should have been pegged the argument goes to the maximum she could have gotten even though she listed more in the maxims you've gotten was well defined and presumably well known to her why why isn't that a viable argument  receive as much as i used to or she needed to put on some form of evidence that and and did she was there any evidence on the record before it starts go more right yes was there any evidence before judge gilmore that was presented by the defendant that she somehow knew that all she was going to get was what the regs provided notwithstanding the claim amount no shoot she offered no evidence at sentencing concerning and it was no evidence built into the trial  concerning her intent or her expectation other than the reality of course there is evidence of what she was paid there is that big but that doesn't prove what her intended her expectation