clear combination of two words pro bono and no the our client sought to register that market for its services which is an eye line marketplace for providers and consumers of free or affordable legal services and the board found it nearly descriptive based on evidence of only the word pro bono in doing so that was clear air france are reasons first they don't have substantial evidence that the combination of pro bono and no was merely descriptive and second because the combination of pro bono and no is going to quickly suggest first there's no evidence that the combination of pro bono and no is merely descriptive there's no question mark and so are you suggesting that there might be a dispute over the meaning of the word no or the one meaning of the word knowledge as i understand it it was your position all for the prosecution that this was some form of portmanteau or telescope word of problem and knowledge and so and the whole point of this service t site is to provide knowledge of problem no activity well that's partially correct and partially incorrect it's true that our position has always been that the mark is a combination of pro bono and know which is a derivative of now have yet i saw also knowledge sure sure that was morning a notion the consumer will recognise is shorthand for knowledge and they'll see the probe own now at least when you say it out loud  know no means we don't know what knowledge mean agree agree and that's that's the problem because the only thing that people would relied on was the meaning of the word pro bono where why should that script i mean the  phrase is knowledge of service well that's not what the that's not what this is this isn't knowledge of pro bono services ok and the word no doesn't merely describe to provide services i thought that was exactly the point of the site that's a good that's an incorrect characterization that that's what the board says it is but that's not actually the business i'm asking which isn't accurate about it's not there to merely provide knowledge of pro spreads knowledge of profile activity that's correct but how is it ok so then you agree so the no i don't agree that i don't agree more a combination of the word pro bono know or knowledge is in fact why isn't that descriptive of a site that spreads knowledge of pro bono opportunities because i would submit that nobody in this room would look at the terms the combination of the terms pro bono and know and immediately think oh a website that provides knowledge of pro bono opportunities what they might think is a website that's related that is about program know and something else about knowing that's what they're knowing they say but it was unclear on the face of it  appears to be talking about what describe it yourself as knowledge or problem that is one that is not the primary purpose of the of the website it's not simply a place to go to find out about pro this is your difference if you're stuck with this quote whether you think it's right or wrong this is what you told since this is what you told the public when you wrote this into the prosecution history of the drug market yet this is one of several things that told that pro going oh she told the office right this is one of several possible interpretations of what pro bono could mean just when you see pro bono yes that could suggest you owe a place where there is knowledge of pro bono opportunities or it could just suggest what it actually is which is a place where experienced attorneys can assist inexperienced attorneys in a pro bono case ok so normally when you see a regular pro bono situation you have an attorney maybe a junior lawyer who doesn't have experience in a particular practice area and they want to cut their teeth in a particular area so that's a good idea identification of the services exactly what exactly are you talking about this fool notion of mentors inexperienced boyer's and because the ground for mentor training it's not in the idea of your services or your trademark and neither is the thing that you're trying to marry arse to neither is a place where there is knowledge of pro bono opportunities neither is that in the in the description of services and that's the point it doesn't the description of services is operating an on line marketplace for providers and consumers of free and affordable legal services that is not services for lawyers and clients your prospective clients to go to meet up with each other i guess almost like a dating service on the internet why isn't that very very consistent with the really the question your earlier arguments seem to be raising the question of pro bono and no pro bono and knowledge in a vacuum what with that and if we convey to someone in public and that wouldn't be the correct inquiry the correct if you see the word pro bono and know and the listed services of a online marketplace where lawyers and people in need can find each other for pro bono opportunities then it starts that's really the question and that's where the board made the finding you may not like it but the board yes you know they would see in this context that this mark is all about presenting knowledge about pro bono opportunit would not be able to have any no formative mark because then any no form of market then provided information about the other thing that composes the mark would be merely descriptive but that's not the case there are scores of registrations that sail through diagnosis for a service that provides diagnostic services porno ok for a service that helps people who are who need knowledge and dealing with their porno addiction there are tons and tons of no form marks that are no different than this one this is pro bono the reason that the order refused on the basis of mere descriptive misses not because knowledge is merely descriptive they just decided that the word pro bono conveys nothing other than th say will be much more descriptive than pro bono than the combination of pro bono and know what if the mark was pro bono no what would that immediately describe to you the answer is nothing it might describe some pro bono a right and you look at that in connection with the services that are listed in the application which is operating an online marketplace for for providers and consumers of free and affordable even legal services one of the things you would immediately assume is that this is related to popo no services p r o b o and i know you would also wonder what the no means why is there also a no what is the knowingness it's certainly not identified in the description of services and when you go to the website it's certainly not immediately clear what the no is the no is always separated in a different color the use of pro quo in its regular language p r o b o and always used throughout it's clearly used differently than the mark robo you would want to know what the knowing this is and if you read the website as you much as you must you wish that which the board insists upon in the government says you have to always look at the services in the context of which i use which is the website in this case you would see that is not the knowledge that has more experienced attorney can provide to a junior attorney in taking on these program no cases is what makes this different that's what is trying to be suggested we're not even trying to suggest the the on line marketplace for providers and consumers when we use the word no it doesn't really describe that it doesn't it doesn't necessarily suggest that perhaps it could but there are many more things that i could check suggest as well including the thing that i just told you and if you have a situation there's a series of factors that you can use to show that but in this case it's not there are other things you can look at the see whether or not something is either merely descriptive or suggest or under every stress  harmed by giving the appellant the right to use this exclusively nobody's being going to be prevented from using the word pro bono nobody's going to be prevented from using the word no they're only going to be prevented from using the combination of pro bono like medicines and such but the board said they made the right decision they said no it's suggestive of the of the herbal aspect of the things you get that these are farm fresh or ingredients that was just clever enough to create a different commercial impression than just in just the pharmacy that's what this is pro bono spelled p r o b ok you know w and with no distinguish in every instance and with all ears and everyone knowing how to actually spell pro bono is just clever we do stuff we help each other with pro bono things that would mean you wouldn't say oh yeah that's exactly what i was thinking he said pro bono no that's exactly what i think you'd never say that because you weren't thinking that if it could be any number of things and something can mean any number of arguably be similar to the one under consideration that what we have to focus on is the one before that was before the board and that was before this court here and the court had a very well fleshed out record it had the applicants web site here which shows that the very focus of the online marketplace is to connect clients and lawyers and provide them information about access to pro bono services there's no other today is the descriptivist refusal and i think the court is aware of the evidence and we think it's a good record and so unless there are any other specific questions i'm happy to stay on the brief and yield the balance of my shoot i would just say that there are there is it was pretty remarkable to me the record if they want to stand on doesn't have anything that supports their position there are two words to as you said there's no dispute there are two words make up this mark pro bono and no the only evidence that the board relied on was evidence of the what pro bono the word we all know means dictionary definitions of the word pro bono on line definitions of the work pro bono but the him no evidence of the word no no evidence of your pro bono and no together when i saw the brief here and i looked at the cover of your blue brief it said to it's in re pro bono exactly and so i guess that made me wonder why didn't you argue we did all this this is take some kind of saw it right out of the gate in the initial response to the opposite sex and it was this is a combination of the two words pro bono and knowledge and everybody's going to know that everybody is going to see that and when they see that they're going to see that it's  merely descriptive but only suggestive of getting knowledge of pro bono was to me well it was the focus of the argument straight through the prosecution so ironic i don't see anywhere where the africans when you look at this it says kobach now ironically we're doing this case pro bono and we took it after the prosecution after the board refusal and when and we brought in the very first thing we put in our opening brief was exactly as you as you just described if you don't know what it is when you first start in the arguments on appeal that's what like the classic well what it's not a new argument it's not a new argument in the sense that they said that this mark was suggestive not descriptive if you if you're the only way that you know that it is probed it's pronounced pro bono is to recognize the word no that's what they said during the prosecution and you say that that's what  puzzle that's what our client said during prosecution because only way to recognize and the only way that the board could find that this mark is merely descriptive is to recognize the k n o w is pronounced no so if you don't recognize that you're rank pro back now and it'll be it'll be provoked now and there'll be arbitrary because it means nothing but if you do recognize that it says you know that it's pronounced no then you will know that it's not simply pro bono it's not simply the merely descriptive word pro bono it's something more than that it's a combination of the words from bono and no and that combination is not really descriptive of the services or what they actually do either in their application or what they're actually providing on their website