well as our secretary polly martins for our department we have brand savages our deputy director of parks and recreation and corporation council deputy jerry shepherd going to check in with our district office in hono office are you there objections thank you thank you ladies in the district offices ok members turning to our first first and only item on today's agenda e r forty two the committee's receipt of the county communication fifteen dash two three seven from the budget a budget director transmitting a proposed bill entitle the bill for repealing chapter thirteen point zero for the maui county code and establishing a new chapter thirteen point zero county code relating to parks and recreational facilities and amending section six point zero four point zero nine zero of the maui county code relating to the animal control officers the proposed bill proposed bill is to repeal chapter thirteen point zero four relating to the recreational area regulations and establishing a new chapter thirteen point zero four of them our county code  at our last meeting we completed the first review of the department of parks and recreation is proposal overall of chapter thirteen zero for the county code regarding the recreational area of regulations and the enforcement powers of the animal control's officers today we will examine and update revision a version of the comparison matrix that we asked the deputy director to prepare incorporating all of our prior suggestions and some of the options developed by the parks on certain sections as we go through the matrix i will stop at each section for comments and suggestions and at the end i plan to defer this so that the staff can prepare a final version of the bill for consideration at the next meeting this savage would you please go ahead and proceed with the matrix so members just before ms savage begins we're just looking at the middle column where it says changes so as we went through the first first phase of it basically went through the entire new chapter i had asked members to make suggestions or put forth their concerns on on the conditions and provisions and so we had documented those and put it in the middle section so now we're going to go back and review those middle sections either we're go with your suggestions or instructed the department to come up with language that would accommodate or at least give us some options at this point mr couch thank you mr and just for be missed i know i brought it up a while back but i didn't see that it got incorporated on page forwards as advertising material i mean scientists stickers posters flyers pushers banners and videos displays or any other means of propulsion for promotion can we reference something that has to be in accordance to chapter sixteen point two six which is the sign ordinance because there are restrictions on sizes of her fourth two thousand and fifteen version one seat so just for the members references ok ms savage you may proceed british going to go straight into the the  locations and so will go to all of those different reference points so we have the discussion about county co sponsored versus department sponsored and how that pertains to equipment usage for county co sponsored events outside of parks facilities so he added in a definition for county co sponsored which would read county co sponsored means all functions activities programs or events sponsored by the county or any county agency in can do it in conjunction with an individual or organization so by adding this definition then as we flip over to the next page on page seven which was where we primarily had the department sponsored  conversation we can also go ahead and reference to the table that was also provided as a reference tool with the rates and fees was a four page starts off with table thirteen of forty eight one hundred and if you flip over on to the second page of this this is where i will be referencing on the left hand side listed down there's the different types of equipment and then across the top shows the different permit types and so added under the special events category it s profits political fundraiser slash county co sponsored so this is where we added in a fee or added it in so that it would be included into the fee structure if there were fees for the county co sponsored equipment to be utilized off of parks property and then this also correlates with the language chairman interject mr couch just for point of order are we well we obviously aren't going to make changes to this because we cannot it's a budget item right this has to be sent down if an activity was co sponsored by the county then you could use county equipment you know on the original version was you had to use it on county property the equipment proceed thank you so the final reference to this is on also on page thirty where there is section thirteen zero four a one three zero department equipment rental so the proposed language change that's listed under option one would read thirteen zero four a one three zero department equipment rental subject to county co sponsorship or the issuance of a permit pursuant to article three the director may rent department equipment to the permit be subject to payment of custodial deposits in fees as set forth in the annual budget ordinance priority of use for equipment shall be given to permits issued pursuant to article three then to county co sponsored events that are not on parks property and the damage to rental equipment shall be paid for the by the permian permit be an amount equal to replacement cost as determined by the director and permit he shall forfeit any deposit and the excess amount shall be recovered from the permit holder by any legal means necessary so these are all the the different locations including a rental fee amount in the rate schedule adding the county co sponsorship definition and adjusting this language and department rental car department equipment rental this was the option the department provided based upon the concerns of the members from the last few meetings i like the it's not on county property it's not part of the county parks jurisdiction but yet they are allowed to use you know they they use some of our equipment i think mr couch had an example of first friday in key here or fourth friday during that it's off site but yet there it's it's sponsored by the county fourth friday but they're not allowed to use county parks and recreation equipment so that's what the discussion was like cancan sponsored events by the county also use parks and recreation or a clin or is there a problem with those entities using private sectors rental equipment i don't we can universal and of entities th equipment again i bring it up because you know that's all they need is a mile of department requests and they cannot perform because their equipment broke down or sponsored event for nine county work requirements  d that's and that's an issue that you know that's presented i think also miss kerr fellow had some issues on moment where in some of the county sponsored events were offsite and were not on county property but yet sponsored by the county and there and they were having difficulty getting equipment bleachers and things like that so i mean yeah that's it this a good issue to be raised whether we just you know not have that whole c county sponsored but that doesn't necessarily mean that the county space can accommodate the event and we leave it's like utilizing  the tables so on my island there's no private vendor rents that except maybe for easy ops and that that sort so i would have to see that you know this the private sector that would provide the type of equipment that we're fortunate to have from the services of the county parks and recreation another one that the mobile stage is being used but it's on state property it's not on county property so there are events that the county sponsors are co sponsors that use that equipment already so i'm not sure how that being sounds as though there are already using county equipment although the current ordinance wouldn't allow it or it's implied it's implied that it wouldn't be allowed off of the county property so how is it some of vets out there that have been ongoing still use county property or i mean scuse me the equipment off of county thank you chair so some of the topics and kind of points that were discussed when we first went through this section is there's been inconsistency in the department over the years with when equipment is allowed off property and when it isn't and so part of us going through this and is asking for clarification and i establish in what the policy should be moving forward should it be that county equipment is allowed off property for county co sponsored events or should it be exclusively used for when permits are issued on county property and you know the department again has concerns both ways we understand that there are certain events that rely on and have relied on certain pieces of county quitman over the years and we want to be supportive of those events and some of them right it is because maybe our facilities aren't available or they don't fit appropriately in our facilities but we also have concerns with expressly the larger pieces of equipment the mobile stage of the mobile bleachers with any of those going off property because we have to move them we have to set them up we have to make sure they're secure there's a lot of times electrical things that are being hooked into them and so the question for us and as was discussed that if that becomes county policy then there's going to have to be that budgetary consideration because most of the time these large pieces of equipment need to be moved is on the weekends and after hours after that six to two thirty shift our employees would be working so those are both concerns that again we had brought up at the time that if this if this is the policy direction of the body the department doesn't have any issue in following through with that but we just want it to be recognized that there will be additional operational costs that are a part of that as well as just the wear and tear on any time you're moving equipment far from one location to the other the other piece of this that i can bring up is that it may be that the types of equipment needs to be separated because there's the wooden bleachers which are not the wouldn't leach as the wooden stage pieces that are the you know four by eight foot pieces and then there are the molokai we have picnic tables that get rented out frequently so there's certain types of equipment that it may be the body may want to consider allowing certain types of equipment to go off property and other types of equipment have to be used again on county property so that the equipment that we would have to designate or you're suggesting would be those that are the only equipment where that we're talking about right now in regards to this section that is that is correct in order for us to rent them out they would have to be listed in the budget ordinance thank you chair at this point there's no extra costs and that's been one of the things that we've gone back and forth from a department that we'd like to look at proposing into the budget is having some type of  kind of equivalent compensation that goes towards if we need to set it up and it's off of our normal working hours or it's outside of the scope or parameters that there's kind of that equivalent recuperation right now there's just the fees that are in the few schedule for that piece of equipment and we've kind of taken the philosophy that if it's a you know it's a co sponsored event it's on our property you know that's something that we're going to accommodate within the department of figuring out when to get things set up and chair so the equipment as far as rental for public use would only be again the ones that are explicitly listed the department has no intent of looking at other types of you know equipment being used more again things like stages bleachers that may be a part of certain facilities but if something's being used maybe a little bit differently or we have lots of field open grass areas that are like multi purpose that we don't some of that infrastructure built into and so we you know it's nice to be able to accommodate some of the special events in those different areas but that means that we have to help bring in some of that infrastructure so those would be the transporting of the equipment would go into our construction maintenance because that's the area that as far as for the large pieces the mobile stage a mobile bleachers those have to be hauled with larger piece of equipment sar construction maintenance section is the one that would it's not operation budget that would take those costs if there's movements of the smaller what in stage pieces that a lot of time will just be done in district  on the expense alleges that they get reimbursed from the event now there's no mechanism right now other than the permit feel amounts for us to collect those monies back in so there isn't a reimbursement of the actual costs so the jennifer nice eating the excess costs of these events in fact i think we need to make sure that they have been peaceful itself and we need to make an assumption general fund is going to subsidize everything it would that be proposed in the budget or would that be in this but i just bring it up to him because part of the goal that i believe that the party would like to get through is this enterprise status which means their revenue generating  is because i think that's the right direction for this county and the people to the rectory so working hard on this enterprise consideration i just want to make sure that part of it is to make sure that things they need to pay for still pay for it so that's where we're going to go and their priorities because they should be for me in my expectations additional revenue to take care of the other needs of the department by the biko corps swimming pools i expect this  so that's where i'm coming from twenty four inches off the ground so this just goes like a elevated riser that come in eight foot by four foot sections the mobile shall be all stage and the mobile bleachers those do have power sources that are attached  o them and i say power sources that means that because they open and close and so there's a lot of electric think it's built into that if you you can't necessarily like just you still need a generator to run the sound system like for your event that's running off of that ok yeah that was my next question in generators are you the key to maybe rent those or do you have those at hand to rent you know those are things that have to be provided by the as rentals at a certain time at this point those are kind of station the ones we have are stationed primarily at one location but we'll be looking at adding that in this upcoming budget  an avenue to be able to rent those out and move them for different events oh thank you thank you thank you so i am trying to get a good feel of the members on this section is it something that we should incorporate on the plane which regarding reimbursement over time and transportation and that should be in a reimbursed somehow to the parks is that that's the that's the suggestion i hear from mr com chipchura yes and i think is important for all of us to be clear on how the the money's going to it would help out if i had my thing is we understand how we want to make this work from a financial standpoint chairman but he'll be easier for us than to be by the responsibilities of what who's going to do what under what c really i would just like the sensor any part of this is the person perspective where we're going to operate under this enterprise scenario and i think that would help us because i think again i would agree part of this enterprise system with the integrity we expect to convince the tax base we need good record keeping and ability to shore what separately with the monies especially with the c down the road eventually how we're going to make those improvements in the parks and so i think we need to be clear on how we want to set up this program especially with every disagreement and they can have a colleague to my for your bleacher is whatever activity it is and it amounts to two hundred fifty dollars maybe twice a month where does that those monies where where does it go that the fees i think chair so all of the permit fees that we collect those all goes into the general fund if it's the custody of the posits and the key deposits those going to into a trust an agency account because those are refundable provided everything's returned and taking care of accordingly and then if for some reason something isn't cleaned up and they're going to forfeit that because social deposit then we do a demand to transfer those monies from trust an agency into the general fund so that i get some sort of report or record keeping is crucial for us to have an idea of how much is going into the general fund from the permits and how much are we losing because of manpower or or damage to equipment that would be helpful if if there is a process that are at this point to try to produce some kind of report that shows how much like from an operational perspective because we're not tracking separately this trip to drive from here to here to hold this piece of equipment and how many have some sort of system that drives that kind of information that kind of information would fall into a project that we have down the pipeline a little bit further it's our maintenance connection system and so that's the system that should be managing like all of our work orders and it wasn't fully built out to the level that it could have been built out in the end so after we finish all this permitting stuff we're going to be going back  in because we can create like preventive maintenance schedules in that work order systems with little automatically populate and send out reminders for work that needs to be performed either on specific pieces of equipment for maintenance or on facilities and there's the ability  that to build in place specific fees or fees per se but costs for specific types of repairs and you can also account for the expenditure of man hours as well and so eventually once we get that system set back up and we get good information built into it then we would be able to generate some of those types of reports but that's probably about eighteen months from now ok that will be able to get that fully set up and functioning ok thank you thank you thank you mr white picket your apologize if somebody asked this question already but for these various categories of rentals  do you have any sense at all how many rentals you you do in each of these categories and do you have any estimated expense that goes with each of these rental and i know that there is based on time of day or day of the week but is there any any tracking that gives you a sense of whether the thousand dollars for the stage  actually covers all the costs of set up break down transportation and eventually repair replacement need to make assumptions but i would have to assume that that existed somewhere in the department when these numbers were initially created and it's not something currently that we that we reference or could pull up to say this is how much it cost to do this we could get some some general estimates i think for probably a couple of different scenarios that kind of piece of the whole basically a fee structure assessment is something that the departments said once we get through kind of code revisions then we end the administrative roles and we have more of the kind of policy procedure side of it put in place and we have staff trained on that they would be going back to do more of an in depth fia susman and looking at you know all of the different facilities again to say what are the operational costs what are the if it's for pieces of equipment right why does it cost to move from one place to the next our deposits how much does it cost us to do different cleaning of things and so we we haven't done i guess that because we were looking at doing it comprehensively for all of our rates and fees  once we get through again kind of the policy and procedure side of it is that we've been talking about these fees for at least three or four years  know i'm supportive of changing the fees because like we're discussing this morning with agricultural property tax rates somebody is paying for somebody else's benefit and i think it's important for us at least get a handle on what the cost is to provide this and there's initial purchase cost or the ongoing maintenance or the set up so on because essentially is another subsidy that we've discussed before that you know people complain about the golf course but lease a golf course the folks who are using it are being charged a fee that just haven't done the calculations recently but the recollection is that the fees at least take care of about half of the cost of operations and but we don't have that happening in the rest of  parks so the rest of parks or wherever we're providing services that we're not we're not generating any the return income so and there are obviously areas where we don't want to charge but there's areas where we probably should be charging more than we are thank you thank you mr couch thank you mr chair and i think mr will probably remember this more than anybody but i believe in ninety nine or two thousand it was attempted to make the rates and fees close to or you know at least half of what it really costs which it made them a lot higher than they currently are and there was a huge backlash from the from the people in our county and so the council i think the next year or even in the same year took those right back almost instantly so just to a little bit of history there i hate to be channeling m thought this was tried so i'm pretty sure that these are nowhere near what the actual costs are because of that incident that happened back in the ninety's early two thousand so we got to look at those days was abuse regarding cleaning of the facilities after events breakage of locks on our doors and  opportunity and with this new proposal and one of the things that i would as a director you should not be period today if she can get back to us from finance hole long it would take for finance to set up the appropriate accounts required to make this an expenses we have already set up d n a accounts for whatever it needs for to put cash on a temporary basis to set up this reset of that that would give us some confidence and seven understanding of finance needs and how soon they can support your department's needs and in general working with corps council if we granted the  implementation date then making sure everything is ready for your department to operate on a daily basis so that would be helpful for someone like myself i would agree with that and so is the department  put together i know that we won't get through this by the end of the year so we will pick this back up in january so i think you'll have plenty of time to at least follow up on some of that  if you are renting these out how how much are you renting them out for what is the cost of the over time the transportation also can finance department comedy some type of system that could somewhat like a revolving fund maybe but some type of system where more or earning money or at least  coming out breaking even when we do read these equipments out and it may not even necessarily be using the general fund we might need to create a fun on its own but implementation portion is important because can the finance department create sponsored by the county if you expend in monies that we are we don't really have home considering the fact that we're subsidizing a lot of things in the county yes mr whyte you know i mentioned that the cost of running the parks department just texas staff to remind me what the cost of running the parks department including fringes and it amounts to about forty two million dollars a year which is almost double the entire homeowner contribution a real property tax so it's a it's a significant amount of money that everybody else is putting into the into the earlier discussion but one of the things that and i agree that we've got to get closer to maintaining a fee schedule that coincided she was actually costing the county to run some of these operations but i will also step back and say that a lot of our nonprofits are used to our elderly who are the users of our facilities in a large manner i do not want to see damn hurt in any way and that was some of the backlash that mr there was justification they felt they were being unfairly targeted because they don't have facilities outside of what the county provides so this is something that i do know in this all of this discussion are nonprofits and you know and they got a piece something i don't think they're not going to be something but i don't want them to have to come back and ask for more funds from us or raise more money out there just to use our facilities and i think this is a body yet commercial fine you know as economical as possible for them the other part that we still come on mention about concessions you know a lot of the huge groups and some of their budget by having concessions what it's baseball what is football you name it the argument ok not only still come as man said many times well that's a state issue but it's our kids and i don't distinguish between state and county when it to our children yes we're using our facilities when they use their facilities they don't share with us so i will say that in on the city and they charge us when we use the gyms when we use their cafeterias when we use their fields they charge the county so i think some place in this whole equation we need to step back with the state and say hey we've got to have a more ammo global relationship you've got to be fair to us because we're being fair to you you we allow you to use our facilities our fields for high school so maybe we can cut back i don't know i don't know if we want them but i just try to get to a point mr chair that well we move in this direction to try to do what is the word trying to recover i fear cost back to us so that we can continue to not augmented by real property tax and other means on the same to keep let us not hurt the ones who need it the most is our families our children our kapono they are the ones that really really depend on this and speaking about is i think you were here last meeting we were talking about whether we would allow certain equipment from the parks department stage stages bleachers picnic tables mobile bleachers and show mall bill stages to be rented to those entities that would bring those those equipment off of county property the current ordinance that we have right now would activity and that event or activity was off of county property could those could could they then rent those equipment and so there was discussion about that although we weren't talking about finances transportation those are other elements of expenses that we on the committee weren't thinking about so i think we need to at this point have the department do a little bit of research to see if in fact that's to really violent co sponsor ships to read these equipments off of county power p is that really going to hurt us in a big financial way adding another subsidy out there that we can't really afford but i think we can do a little bit of economic research on that to see if it's viable and i think there's a real challenge in my mind a lot of the equipment that you're referring to for example the  that belong to the fear association but we have generally let them use it whenever the county requested isn't that correct we you know there's usually a rental fee that's collected by the fair alliance but about what i've just seen that doesn't belong to the that that's what's happening and it's been put on county property for years no residual of return to the county interesting interest so what's his move will come back to this  is on hold in conjunction with the inclusion of the fee and the department equipment rental thirteen  four a one three zero that language rewording all of those are on hold in conjunction with an equipment fees analysis yes ok and this is a definition for a gymnasium and you'll see again in the center column looking to add in the language including but not limited to so agree gymnasium means any recreational facility utilized for indoor athletic activities know so within the definition of gymnasium it states for indoor athletic activities so i think that's where it is not explicitly talking about like the building structure but you know we would look at indoor being enclosed with walls and a ro here so the question with this was what the definition of recreation facility it includes pavilions and so the question was does there need to be a distinction between indoor and outdoor pavilions because how does that pertain to dogs being allowed in outdoor pavilions versus in nor pavilions because if we reference a little bit later on page eighteen will be the other place this connects into  prohibition but you cannot bring dogs into recreational facilities and so on page eighteen you will see there's two different options that can address this the first would be to leave the language as it is which would result in dogs are not allowed in outdoor or indoor ince the second option would be changing the language to allow dogs in outdoor pavilions which would read bring dogs into recreational facilities excluding outdoor pavilions except for guide signal hearing and service dogs as defined in section six zero five zero one zero of this code this fine either way my only and the reason i brought it up as we we have a couple pavilions in and that are pretty much open that you know a person can take their dog through or kind of s him at the bench while they eat but this if we if we leave language as was originally proposed they wouldn't be able to do that and i think mr victorian had a concern about allowing dogs in that so i'm fine with concern was more in the we have to have a specific reason why that animals with you and i think that's important i don't mind you know people bring little chihuahuas and little you know small arms you know i don't mind that a lot that they hold onto when they bring i think you chair so this just to put this back into context this is item number five and it starts off with within the limits of any part or within any recreational facility it is unlawful for any individual to that kind of policy i would just like to make it easy so that our employee doesn't get caught and has to make any their presentation of what upset residency and why can't i be allowed to do this since this is what i understand the policy i like black and white and for service dogs all through this saying in fact nowadays there's service animals and they don't have to be dogs they can be cats they can be heard one person who run who my colleagues because if somebody has to have a service animal i mean someone who's deaf someone in the line i mean are you going to are you going to stop them right i think we need to be and i understand every time we do something t reaction or there's an impact someplace ok fine i'm cool with that but when it comes to service animals if it's a true service animal and i guess if somebody wants to take and what i believe we've got a lot of service animals definitely there's a need and people have handicap you know they have disabilities and the need that service and to have i'm not outdoors are you there that's can't go to the beach park and have your pet with you a mean sir fim dogs on a surfboard going hand in hand you've got to have all this together i mean come on saturday at the beach you know so that's it so i'm i'm in favor it at least the service and we do cite in the language six point zero five point zero one zero which is identifying the service dogs the categories can't handle the i don't have a problem because they're very well trained and you know they know to be quiet they don't have to just jump in front of somebody you know they're very well trained and my space to service dogs is that sometimes even mean that was the topic of the discussion it ok service animals i would like to see if we do service animals that all of them are leashed if it's a cat sorry it's service you have to have a leash if i want to ask a dog to be vicious i mean you the hearing and service dogs requiring people to have them on a leash so if you want to have change to chapter six point zero five to require them to be leashed animals that might have to be taken up with six o five rather than put into thirteen zero four a saying you have to have your service animal leashed the best change that you might want to make if you choose option two is to change the first dogs to animals animals into recreational facilities excluding outdoor pavilions except for guide signal hearing and service dogs as defined in six zero five zero one zero zero zero that would be a workable definition for discerning objections that we  threatened seventeen is the recreational program funds and this had been discussed as the possibility of having the department try it out on a trial basis with a budget allocation first and then provided the fund works then look at creating the fund after it's been tested in the department for a while so these two options the first would be to again leave the language as is which would create a new program fund this would be primarily used for expenditure of the league that would be charged back to the participants and this would allow the department to hopefully offer more league type of play in the different in  different districts without it just being taken directly out of our operating budgets the second option would be to delete the language and then the department would submit a budget amendment for the costs to start running some of these and then after it ran the fees that would be collected would go into the general fund and then once that was utilized for a while if it was something that worked then we would come thinking i would like option one and we as a city here can keep an eye on them to see if they're abusing it but i'd rather put it in and so we don't have to go back and make changes if it's working which i i meant to spending is going to work i have no doubt that it's going to work but if something happens if somebody you know goes awry then we can you know on the off chance that happens then we can go in and say you know we got to pull this out and you guys screwed up i don't think you guys are going to screw up i have full faith in the parliament that they're going to do it right so i would rather and then put it in and leave it in and only as an exception take it out if there's a problem that's just my thought for the other members to consider then for members in your way in at this point mr cochran  so there's no limitation a type of period whether it's adult softball or literally your pals or pony mustang g t it doesn't matter so this primarily would tie into the recreational leagues and so we had to find the page of that definition we had separated leagues into four different categories so this primarily would be the adult leagues immediately that this would impact so these are leagues that the department used to be able to run more frequently but it was one hundred percent subsidized out of our operating budget and over the course of the years we were unable to fully support and subsidize those programs anymore and so they were they were cut out and we'd like to be able to offer those programs again but we don't want to be one hundred percent subsidizing them so we had calculated the fees that are listed in the budget ordinance per sport and we did that based on the cost of the officials the cost of the equipment and then calculated out the per game rate so that if we a stab wish that maybe there is an adult softball league that wants to run and they're going to run for eight weeks and they want to play ten games per team we can calculate out what that cost is and then the teams can then pay that are divided up for per person and then we would collect that so it goes into that specific fund so that when we needed to hire officials or scorekeepers or you know purchase specific equipment for that league we would be able to use that fun directly as opposed to our operating monies third from the bottom is the definition for recreation league does not identify directly that it's an adult league no so it's recreational league means any leagues organized by the department which assessed registration or participation fees use solely to offset operating expenses such as equipment officiating and expenses through the recreational program  d is it necessary them for a city fine for purposes you have a different kind of league that are are sponsored by the department like the basketball i guess literally is not necessarily sponsored by the department i'm just really looking at youth programs and maybe personnel would defined it as such and the is confusion i mean so i'm just asking if there can be a sense of as you defined it recreational programs are equal to adult progra sponsored by the department excludes perhaps youth programs thank you chair so there's i guess kind of some of the of the rationale in the reasoning was we were going through this thought process to develop the different types of leagues is right now the need for this recreational fund is for the adult programs but that's because we have a lot of nonprofit organizations that we work with that provide the recreational activities for the youth programs if we came across a youth program that there was no one providing and we said as a department we want to meet this need or we think that there is the opportunity to do a new type of program we could still do it as it could be done as a recreational leak or as we do most of the other types of youth or senior or inclusion activities that may fit into more of a department league which we defined which means it's one hundred percent organization funded by the department so there wouldn't be any registration fees assessed to that so that's similar to like the men who program that is the middle school scorekeeping the officials all of those types of things so that's kind of where by creating the four different categories of leagues as we did a community league department league partnership league  a recreationally it allows for all the different types of uses that are currently going on as well as the needs that we see that we want to be able to meet it allows for a different kind of category for each of those different types of activities  in the administrative rules process though definitely be more details and possibly examples and that might be something that at this point maybe it needs to be in the administrative rules defined as adult programs and then if there was i think the difficult part with recreation is it changes so frequently that we don't want to put in language that in a couple years from now prevents us from being able to provide for the community in the way that we see the needs are so i think that the department would prefer not to define recreational league as only adult leagues in the code but we could look at including that type of language in the administrative rules because then those can be changed a little bit quicker and a little bit easier if we come across that need as well working with the community for different events thank you i can tell you and i started the budget fourteen years ago but of the members had no clue about special funds because it was not part special funds regarding all pretty appropriate when you add it up there's a lot of money in this month's i don't this will take a review which we normally don't how do we account for those funds you know this is a new something new something different a department and and my thing is we still can be supportive a lot and go through it and to our annual review see if this is something we want to authority to in the meantime the department your rules committee those appropriate adjustments on the short term to make it even more effective and more operational workable and then directed me see consideration of oregon and i'm happy to support that type of effort because they've got the track record and they'll look at their documents and facts of experience to support their requests so i prefer to go that way and allow the department of time to work but the kinks internally through the us and ministry to rules germany because one of the things is again how each component will support the and charitable events and one way to help support those by having a revenue stream that is more than sufficient to take care that the parliament's requirements and that is what i'm looking for and that is why i push hard for concession and pouring because what every serve on a county property will be what we authorize and license in return for revenue and i want that to be under the control of the county not event sponsors this is the county's money so this is how i'm looking at it and i think if we do it well with the department's energy that i see from that the two  we have a conflict could there and with that issue so again buyer beware be careful what we wish for because when you get it you're not going to be happy with it but i'm willing to look at it i think it's important you know again we wan keep consistency but we want to allow the opportunity whenever and wherever it arrives at our proper non profits and our youth leagues and are going to be able to continue because you know what if they don't get that money willing to look at it and we need to work with it i think that's often important never been one that goes my mind to any ideas but i am let's make it feasible enough and fair enough that we don't hurt the most vulnerable part of our the parents open to either way we just want to be able to do the league's whether it's we're fine with coming back with a budget amendment and running it in house and making sure that it's working the way we think we think it'll work and then when we get that down coming back at that point you know where that's fine and you can have more of the data or at least the economics worked out and then present it to us yeah i think i would be agreeable to that but we'll just keep so moving on page eighteen is the next change down about a third of the way down under number six so this is in reference the on the left hand side within the limit of any park or within any recreational facility it is unlawful for any liberal to feed any animal or animals or stage any food or water for any animal or animals except as provided in subsection d and this also connects on a little bit further will reference it again on page twenty but the some of the discussion that came into play around this topic was i mean we we have the issues and the concerns with animals being fed on the parks property but in further discussions with  value main society in looking a little bit more at some of the data and the literature behind feeding bans or feral animal colony bans it was kind of identified that just creating a band straight out isn't really going to get us to the solution that we're looking for and so the language that we would like to propose would be moving this item number six into section b instead of in section a and the differences in section that it's accept as often as otherwise authorized by a permit license lease or contract issued in accordance with the code within the limits of any park or recreational facility it is unlawful to and we would also like to add in the other item that we discussed which is referenced on page twenty which is the feral animal colonies shall not be maintained or established so we'd like to recommend is and this is listed in option one is moving both of those into section b so that they're not allowed unless authorized by permit license lease or contract issued in accordance with the code within the limits of any park or recreational facility by adding those two in there we would then look at taking  essential it's a management type of concern with how do we manage this into a solution that works for the community and for the county and so we would look at in the administrative rules addressing these processes further and working more closely with a humane society to establish maybe it's best practices or there's some type of permit or an agreement that's issued by the department if we identify that there are certain areas that there are feral animal colonies that need to be properly managed and properly maintained so that would be option number one which would be the recommendation of the department option number seems that that last meeting option number three is out of the question because it sounded as though you didn't want feral colony animals roaming around in the parks just the proposal option one is there any objections to basically allowing rees animal colonies to be in existence and allowing feeding of animals on the parks parks and only if there is a permit or what is this section be a contract issue to allow that entity may be humane society to feed those colony animal cats or birds or whatever we have there mr okama germany this is easy for me this is black and white i don't support any type of feral animals in any county public park it's all  two are we mr couch as i understand it ob option two is basically no feral colonies at all even if a permit whereas option one would be essentially you can have a feral colony with a permit or contract or license or lease who makes that determination department so that would be what needs to still be fleshed out and determine the way we do that through reading administrative rules and by working more closely with the molly humane society thank you just to kind of make a note that we already have feral animal call he's currently on parks property and so the question becomes is how do we again how do we deal with that and how do we manage it in a way to where they're not increasing and continuing to create more of the issues that we currently have so it's looking at how do we start managing them so that it can you know i don't know what else to say besides manage but how do we manage to have more manageable so that it's a situation that's not the way we kind of see it right now and that it's continuing to go in a direction that we we don't what i think what she's saying is if we go to option two where we leave language as it is then we have to have some sort of program to get rid of the feral colonies that are there while that sounds you know doable it's my understanding that's really hard to to do so i guess i'd like to hear if we could mr chair from people who are supposed to be experts at this as to if we say eliminate them too bad they're gone and you get rid of anything all the cats and then then you've got it then you've really got the issue is what's a feral  you've heard the discussion a little bit i think there's more than one of us there's at least two of us and maybe more that would just like not to see any feral animals in the parks because of all the issues in here that come with what's the reality of that happening if we get past that it's very challenging we we would certainly like to see improvement at the parks certainly  cannot would be our our biggest challenge of recent after several conversations with brianne we are both in agreement  that simply placing a ban does not is not realistic it does not help help us achieve what we all would like which is less animals at the park if we create a ban the animals will not go away people some people will continue to feed and we won't know who those people are we won't have a way of communicating with them because they won't make themselves known to us because it will be illegal some people will abide by the law and will stop feeding those those animals will be more of a nuisance because they will travel further out and be more of a nuisance begging for food because they're starving so it's challenging we're in support of guidance and oversight if we have if there is some sort and i don't know what it is but some sort of commit or approval or certification or something then we know who those people are we know and they take responsibility for those animals we know where they're feeding if there's a problem we know who to go to when i say we i don't necessarily mean now a humane society i mean the powers that be the parks department we where would benefit now a humane society is that we would then if we want to go in and trap and sterilize animals we would know who to contact to say this is the plan do not feed we need you to not feed for forty eight hours so that we can trap those animals and get them and sterilize them which by the way that is not one of our mandated services that's of mao humane society service for the community so to me that's a successful step in the right direction and then our humane society a whole as whole but support that and be of any assistance to the parks department in implementing and moving forward with that mister i mean i understand that that's what the issue is one thing you you mentioned that i thought we put in the budget this last fiscal year was wasn't there a section for a feral animal that basically you know we're still back to you know option one or option two which is i guess option two has been leading the language as is which means no feeding any question to you is worded what is the ultimate goal is for them to reduce the population of the animals in the parks and how do you do that if you keep your ruining and feeding them  through responsible management so you can have people going in feeding animals all day long but they're not feeding as do then maintaining or managing a colony responsibly in colony just as a group of a group an individual group of cats responsible colony managers trap sterilize traffic and take cats and seek medical care if they're sick  could they keep a clean area for their animals and they feed on a schedule and it keeps the animals from roaming so if you simply have a feeder that's not that's not helping that's not maintaining a colony responsibly so a responsible colony managers see their colonies actually decrease in size that's that's very doable but if you have someone who is not responsible who simply just feeding then that's not helping to reduce the numbers and if there was some sort of oversight then we would be able to be in communication with colony managers educate them give them resources that they need such as a place to take those animals to have them sterilized at a reduced cost or free verses retail at a at a veterinarian because most people cannot and will not do that so if they were maintained responsibly we would see the numbers actually decrease another problem at the parks is as people is the dumping of animals that will continue to happen we need signage and we needed to be very clear the consequences for dumping an animal on parks property and i think many people don't realize that that's a legal meaning other state others like intersection and others are stationed we didn't we didn't research that specifically with how other counties in the state word specifically dealing with this there was some literature that we read just in general about you know kind of government agencies trying to deal with and manage these types of issues and all of that information directed back towards you know just banning it sounds like a good idea but it doesn't necessarily lead to the end result that you're trying to obtain a script of thank you for being here and what i'm what i'm hearing from you as we have some sort of oversight for colony management but my question i guess to department do we have the capacity do we have the expertise to have the oversight because bottom line it's really going to be parks department or is this a big chair that you like for us to kind of work with through my committee under animal control is that something that we'd like to have further discussion on know and i think there's a lot of questions that come out of come out of this and it can get out i've had with some people who just have the empathy to just is coming up which means it has to be overseen by somebody which means more money from somebody versus option to just take them all out so that is something that i think are correct we need to discuss that in rather large detail in her committee i would think on animal control because right now if we were to say just take the law that's that would be says you know if you don't feed on they're going to go and be a bigger problem so i think another member was advocating other ways of reducing their population straight out eradication  minimal size where it's not a nuisance and you know i suppose that's subjective i how it would depend on the number of cats and then what is what is acceptable minimal size i mean i can tell you that trap neuter return and manage is successful it's been successful around the country in cities towns and parks  but it's it has to be done properly if you if if you ban feeding then you would have i guess the the same investment would or the same question could be  posed how do you enforce that that's going to take resources to to enforce the the ban of feeding and you're going to have starving animals and a lot of people opposed to that the humane society wants nothing more than to see low numbers at the park and and two years ago we launched a campaign to do that to go in using our own funds but i will say that we can maybe you know speed in other dogs and cats how about chickens of birds and everything else i don't know that program you know there are should in areas of certain types of feral animals that would not be connected to what we're trying to accomplish and we have that population we just grown exponentially all around this county now we're close to go  think this is question is good i think at this point option two probably would be my choice but i mean again there's much more work that needs to be done i think it's not something i'm going to say yes that's it that solves the problem i think most importantly is we understand the problem and maybe we've got to put some resources behind licensed whatever contractor there's a lot of work to be done in that aspect but a fink with that can you know the with collaboration something can work out i understand the point to just none at all go away never come back again but we know the reality of it that doesn't happen and yes people are dumping so you're going to have this situation now for smith as you say signage how do we make sure people you know get ticketed or whatever penalize for doing that and stop that but in all of this i think him and the message out there needs to be that we're not trying to create colonies we want to assist to make sure the ones that exist are healthy and not a nuisance and what have you but we're not trying to say hey come one come all is continue to keep these alive and keep them growing either so i want to make sure that whatever we choose and we have to do something with existing make sure we're not putting that message out that hey is really we really love this we want to continue to me visit that's not the case we want to take care of what's here but we're trying to phase it out wendy and make sure that every animal that exists has a happy home and not every day i see cats from a colony get run over they live on the side of the road i mean they don't have homes to go to there's across the street every day across our busy highways so the people who want to take care of them but you know they're not truly rich brings up a good point is that i guess i would be agreeable the option one to allow permit but it has to have language that says that on condition that say otherwise you are going to get them the growth so i'm guessing that in the permit process either in mistreated were probably administrative rules would they would work with the humane society and come up with a way to handle the oversight what that means an extra funding i don't know that would be left to be seen or if they can do it within their already there  so if we do option one that's what we have to consider so well i'm not sure where this community move on either option at this point so wh ok real quick question before we move on off of this topic though is there any timeline here folks departments mind to start working or start looking out at all and trying to figure out this management system that stated in this we are planning on moving into our administrative roles literally the day of second reading of whatever changes come out of of these proposed code revisions so we as a department in order for us to move forward and get into even a lot of the topics that continually come up that are more of the fun things for us in parks we want to get into those but this has to be kind of completed first and dealing with some of these issues and looking at different again just different ways of managing things that now we've operated in the past in parks in some of its topics in areas that we maybe have you know no previous experience in or direct expertise but w rely on you know different resources within the community or finding different ways to educate ourselves on how can we deal with the different issues so the administrative rules process again would be something that will be in the midst of literally as soon as whatever quarter visions come out of the council and at that point we would be beginning the discussions specifically for if option one was included that would be a part of the discussions that would be starting listed under number fourteen so this is in the prohibition section this is listed under item b which is again except as otherwise authorized by permit license lease or contract issued in accordance with this code within the limits of any park or recreational facility it is unlawful to number fourteen consume any intoxicating liquor and i don't see under this section was within one thousand five hundred foot radius  of the schools in the youth centers and the concern that arose through this was again you have different holidays or sometimes you have used centers that are open on weekends and so it's hard to just stick with the str from six am to ten pm you know except on weekends and state and county holidays so the proposed language that we have for mc would be within a one thousand five hundred foot radius of the boundary of any public private preschool kindergarten elementary intermediate middle secondary or high school or youth center and what this would mean is that it would be prohibited within that radius unless authorized by a get a permit license lease or contract in accordance with the code that i believe this was mr victory knows any objections that language the proposal in which mr okama understand the language is true but it just doesn't work some type of language that would be more comedy or i would be happy to address something for the committee to consider true ok thank you very much if you look at members that one will also be reviewed so we're going the next item is the bottom of page nineteen and so this would be where the director may designate by posting signs areas where the following activities are not permitted with any park or recreational  activity the second one and this is right of number to be included right on roller skates skateboards bicycles moped scooters or similar devices with wheels so just adding mopeds and scooters into that listing i believe this one on the following changes you see on page twenty these are part of the feral animal colony and feeding portions so we can skip over that the next again page twenty one this includes sorry to hear before we move too far on in regards to animals and what ms bryant brought up about no dumping of animals would that be here is that somewhere else or do we have any type of signage i mean we would think you'd be just common sense that you don't do this but i think unless there's an actual sign no one can really enforce or stop or you know cite someone from doing such action on our part how does that prove that fall into pla jumping so how would that relate to us though so we can't be less stringent but we can be just so we can equally be is equal an alcohol provision so that's just for considered occupant consistency purposes next is on page twenty three which is under article three permits subsection d for rescheduling this would be in the event of inclement weather and unforseen safety hazards permits will be accommodated through rescheduling to the extent possible permit holders must notify the department within or proposing two business days of these circumstances for rescheduling to occur with no additional fees for this was mr victory knows for the next change on page twenty eight would be in reference to table two which is for notice of cancellation required before the event before the scheduled event per permit type or proposing adding in a little bit of language just so there's clarity on you know what day do we technically start counting from backwards so adding in if the cancellation date falls on a weekend or holiday notification must be received on the work day prior to the weekend or holiday and the other adjustment was there is discussion on the general use permits and the desire to change the cancellation notice from fourteen added in there i know we didn't talk about before but it does make sense just keep in mind that it may add a day or two so instead of a seven day window my nine day window i don't think it would be any more than that right based off of that we can close the weekend that could be a three day weekend so it could be a little bit longer work isn't you know i think that's better for the department not so much for the community but i think it's a reasonable time two if we could make one change just notice all reading through it where it says if the cancellation date falls on a weekend or holiday notification must be received and the work day if we could change that from work to business status business or moving on to the next change is on page thirty but that falls into our county equipments discussion ok here we have this script that i believe that is the final not that far away from finishing i think will set for the next meeting without objection to for this matter the editors thank you very much for getting through this i think that we're at the next many are have a full on draft already but yeah the two or three items that we've we are kind of held up on but in the meantime car putting together the documentation and going through this process thank you and leading