minutes and other business if there is any to the first items on the agenda so that we can circulate the items to be signed while they're working on her presentation so everyone had a chance to look at the minutes ok start circulating these around if we can sign it and with that in mind i will turn the meeting over to you on your public comments first oh yeah public  thank you very technically in this project is sort of the big picture thinker and mark's got all the details so we're going to get a little a little higher elevation tonight will be i'll try to get through i am  but you can see tonight's meeting is our star third meeting in the series that kind of interest to the master plan night we're going to be focusing largely on connectivity and mobility that's chapter three of the plan according to dusty we decided to set up some meeting goals and you'll see these and other ones too but for tonight it's basically to look at chapter three concepts and discuss them and the recommendations in the master plan in relation to some your existing requirements and standards at the same time we've been doing it on an audit of your current regulations to see how you deal with some of these things already and then we'll be looking at options for updates and then in the end if we're there is time a little bit of discussion about public versus private investment and not discussions probably go ongoing to as we go through all this so again we're talking about connectivity how we usually deal with that need typically deal with an irregular ations and we've dealt with in the master plan is partly connectivity meaning getting from here to there and for the past fifty years that's mainly been how do we get cars from here to there so a lot of it's about vehicles in the street network but more and more we're also looking at connectivity bicycling and trance and all modes but again going back to connectivity and streets we often again under our current conventional regulations policy it was based on the recommendations of the i t e an ash go all way up through the eighty's are really pushing the idea that we're dealing with cars and we want dead ends to keep the traffic down in residential  areas but the other thing that the street network does especially when you're really developing into a new more under urban environment is create the basically the pattern of development the framework for development so it's not just any more about getting pattern under a reg and then you can build whatever you want within that framework of what we've got under our current regs is more like this so we're working back again towards gap and there's a lot of different minutes so those are the two things we've been looking at in terms of the master plan especially in terms of higher density areas within that you know what is the pattern development what is th connectivity in those areas and so this goes from the big counter network of development down to what's within the street drug and in looking at your policies in rags it doesn't look like you've yet developed a complete streets policies that are specific to asics but they are referenced in your public works standards currently i think that the victory and standards which apply to the state network we have are reference locally but there is a hidden manual out there for municipalities to use it's something that we may refer to and i can send it around if you're interested in developing the regulations the transect and again that we should look pretty familiar from our last meeting exactly adapted in that comes out of the complete streets manual to show that there are context sensitive zones tied to those elements with regard to looking at your streets so in other words it creates not just a straight based on functional class but streets based on their contacts so right now under the there you have streets that are basically tied to what we all look at the arterials like route fifty collectors some of the side roads in the local roads that actually access homes and  businesses and that's still valid but this adds kind of another layer a lot and says ok but in ninety four or in this case a c four or c five this street now work should also the street types and now we're should also reflect the context so in that case it should have a more urban feel and design than they would if they were out in the rural area so again you started to address that under your current regulations and standards by defining rural streets for at least for the master plan in the town center we might want to look at that more detail again in terms of the odds it what i've been doing is removing the subdivision regulations to a lesser extent in this context the site plan regulations and the public works standards and also dennis's highway management plan because it has a lot of good information in detail in there and i've also been looking at the comments then the submitted response to the master plan and i think there are some valid things in there that will need to address for sure but again looking at your regulations now you already you're actually way ahead of a lot of municipalities i work with you already dress connectivity to a certain extent as a as a concept again that's actually missing in a lot of subdivision rags that i've worked on again you define urban rural street types one of the things though that's interesting is under your urban street types you specifically allow and have a category for dead ends and again in terms of connectivity you know it used to be dead ends were good now dead ends are bad so that's something we'll need to areas back to that traditional grid modify grid it's not always a hard core you know but getting back to just a network of blocks and intersections and streets so that is sort of the ideal within that context fires or greater separation as you get yeah yeah actually the the proposals and it's while it might apply in other areas in the town center even in rural and suburban areas there's a push for more connectivity is mainly to accommodate pedestrians and more so that they have more direct routes to get to where they're going they may not be right and we'll get into that a little bit too and again i was really surprised under your current subdivision you already have some basic block standards which is unusual in vermont and in much of the rest of the country so we have something there to work with already in terms of how we define blocks and sizes right now there's mostly just guidance and what they should look like there's not specific standards there is something that i caught with their regular blocks and i'm not sure how that came about or how it's been applied but it's always interesting to read through regs and pick up things like that  so if you have an irregular block it has to cover to tears of uses so to tears of watts and it has to be at least three hundred feet why not know nothing about the length of the block which and again the length is actually what we're almost more interested in when you're talking about pedestrians and cyclists and stuff how far do they have to walk and then you do require sidewalks and or pay paths mostly on both sides of the street again that's become that's becoming more common but still it's unusual and there is a provision for complete street compliance and to the public works standards but i don't know how it's been applied through these two and i actually it's simple i would like to talk to dennis about these a little bit more maybe we can have a group discussion that again you do to find streets mostly in terms of their their functional class you know what how much traffic they carry and what they're supposed to do which again is fine but we're looking at some other things into it in addition to that under the master plan there's also cut sheets in there for street trees you know how they should be planted and stuff but there's not much in terms of how they should be space and things you do have got specs for sidewalks and rock has already but it's interesting that in the cross sections of the roads there are no bike paths or sidewalks you know again they're the traditional engineering these are where the dream go and that stuff so that's one of the things i'd like to talk to with dennis in terms of how complete streets things can be incorporated  it depends but typically it's a combination of picking the species based on what kind of coverage you want in those areas and the fact that we're getting away from single species plantings because of the disease issues and stuff so that's related to a whole lot of other different goals in terms of tree shading that's true that's true and then there's some miscellaneous requirements too and there's a lot of stuff in the highway standards that are often in land use shuns in terms of how things should be paid for so it's my understanding there right now the developer pays for most things and then the town takes it over yeah which is actually not bad because in some cases towns don't like my town doesn't take it over it's always private but it means that it's hard to require anything in that case yes so again in terms of the master plan the recommendations in this area are to create more pedestrian friendly street grid eliminating the dead end streets especially and we can show a diagram of this in a minute but defining a maximum block or again based on walking distance one of the things that i forgot to mention when we talk about connectivity we also tend to look at what are called pedestrian sheds so the area within a quarter mile because at for transit if you bring that up a little bit you look at like a half a half a mile walk most people are willing to walk up to a half a mile to get to a bus stop or a transit thing so  are rules of thumb they're not hard and fast but they give you an idea and planning for your street grid the block parameter should reflect what's an easy walk for a pedestrian not just what you need to get around again and that's in this context where the blocks are larger and again if you have a really long block length that's when you start looking at mid block connections and you also start looking at interior pads  pedestrians and bikes so off street stuff the other thing we're looking at and they're recommended in the master plan are street types so again these diagrams are coming out of the master plan basically just give you more of a visual representation of what we just went through recommends a maximum block when it and again this often applies to greenfield development there's also an understanding that a lot of what you will be dealing with in the future is in field development so these are kind of ideals that you cut half you'll have to modify and adapt on the ground to deal with but this is kind of the goal to make sure that things that within the parameters so again it's just really focusing more on the pedestrian environment in this case sidewalks pass off street parking that's within easy city ops you know i know dennis had some comments about that too and that's something you get looking at maybe twenty years out and you have to make sure that there isn't a density there to support transit  to meet with us on a non core of selection planning commission to do every you want to be sometime during the day and we will really concentrate valid points and his notes for sure for sure that we're going to need to address he also mentions are many ways to cut the mustard and we can look at those too but it's also a matter of what again what your long term objectives and goals are versus what your immediate needs are now it's often hard to balance and why but the master plan is based more on the long term goals for this so one base code and it's defined either by the right away if you don't have buildings but if you have a good building line the streets gets typically defined by those building lines so one of the proposals and we talked about it last time is make sure you have the building lines to provide some closure and context for the street that they relate to each other you know there's two different street types right now they are sort of outlined in the master plan that again if we work with dennis maybe we can pin down more specifically a look again at the lease for the town center but this includes things like on street parking transit of specific with again based on the building heights and bike lanes and things like that so those are all incorporated into the street cross section along with the traditional  either under there and again we could address these understander we can address an under related guidance and they can be specific just to the town center or you might want to consider some of these concepts for application elsewhere in town too but we're going to focus again on the town center so this is mark's part of the presentation and i'm not as said yeah well there's a whole discussion around fifteen as you know about whether or not the town might consider taking your over the benefit of that is you get a lot more control of the right way downside is you that are in the area to get your feedback yeah so again some of the things that are recommended are whether these should be standards in your subdivision regs whether whether you prefer them simply is guidance under a design review district or even you know it as a kind of i don't want to say codified but presented in more detail in the master plan and there's certainly a recommendation in terms of connectivity to update some of your plan maps because you realize in those in the development review process but there's also a question by the better considered adopting an official map which is a map of your proposed plan facilities and services that is triggered specifically in the review process so we can talk about it i mean y there again there are some recommendations for updating the existing regulations and one of the questions is whether you want to do that specifically for the just for the master plan or whether there's something you'd like to consider under your general subdivision regulations and public works standards and again with the public works standard since a lot of the technical stuff in there that's where we really do need to have a discussion with dennis on some of those cross sections especially with regard to complete streets so those are all points of discussion in terms of the regulations and we will be working through this with staff over the next few months to get back to you with some recommendations but if you have any initial thoughts on how to integrate some of these concepts into your rags be happy to get them at this point from going to i'm just curious about the official map and there wasn't quite sure what you were referring to ok let's talk about adopting something and  of the statue which enables a community to map out it's future infrastructure roads etc and that's that and so that all development that comes in is along those proposed treats and is served by that proposed infrastructure and you're good to go it's can be sometimes a hard process it can be i mean it did it did is right and to be going back to that original grid network when planning was introduced into vermont back in the twenty's and regulations it was all about that it was basically creating an official map for the community or for the a village typically a village not that that laid out the street grid and said this is where we want how we want you to develop this is the pattern we want but we've gotten away from doing that over the years and so we deal with connectivity by saying well you need to stub out to the lot next door and into share your driveway you know shared parking street grid typically it just defines very specific connections that the community wants to make sure happen so and we're seeing increasingly it's not that widely used in vermont at this point but south burlington house line even heinz kerry has one towns that again want to make sure that specific connections are made for instance under the old master plan you had those street connections up in the golden triangle so if you had an official map and somebody subdivided up there you'd say well you have to incorporate the streets within your master plan or your subdivision plan the official map what it does though is that it acts as a flag and typically developers are fine with that especially if the town's willing to take over the infrastructure once they say they do it in some cases all they're required to do is make sure the right of ways there if something's planned down the road in some cases they're actually asked to build it the infrastructure like you do now but then the town would take it over at some point they also have the option of saying no i don't want to do that and then the gives the town the option of saying well then we're denying your town wide because it's you know don't tell me what to do with myself my players but this is this is a pretty small area it seems like it's you know with the exception of you know maybe the redesign the tapping and computer section or the designs he's brought forwarded it largely seems like it's already laid out post part again there's some of it in it i think in your case it would be more of the sidewalks and bike path and that it would be these are the pretty much the approximate locations we aren't they aren't surveyed in rights of way so this would be something like i mean we've had we've had challenging discussions with developers w e've asked for sidewalks or we've asked for you know connections so this would be potentially a tool that could when they walk in the door they know that this isn't just that the regulations as you say open two sides of the  i will say though that your current and your current process may be working fine i don't know we need to go through that with staff to right now you do have those kind of maps in your town plan and you referenced those in the review process it don't really carry the same amount of weight especially if you're challenge to but ninety percent of the time the developers will probably respond to that i'm just i'm there's a there's a couple that come to mind that don't need to be named to their couple  my where there's been a really significant push not nestle on the where but more than when and it seems like something like this might be a tool that that lets us put put it right up in that right up front that this is this is you know step one this isn't you know twenty years down the road but this is a day one sort of process not a not a you know a cd for things like bike paths and so i think that's pretty important because you're right you know the developing mind i have been for twenty years but you still have the least the right of way for that it's a lot harder to get rights of way once properties are built out that's for sure  say you know we do have that process and generally got the right of way but i think the challenge has been you know what it actually it's built you know some reason and there's a reason projects where you know for whatever reason there's no existing connection you know  path in the middle of the goes to nowhere so when does it actually get built and we have the sidewalk impact fee that was brought up about a year ago that may help address that and sort of pool the costs over time so that when we are ready to actually build and have all the rights of way that can happen we have something money aside it would dress that to yeah and that kind of gets into the next set of considerations to construction  and again there's all different kinds of auctions have already got some i think everything in there is a mentioned in dennis is in the public works standards that private construction m in some cases but typically you guys go with the next one private construction and public acceptance which means the town then is responsible for the long term maintenance and that is a legitimate concern with some of the stuff  so there may be a need to address that in other ways and you already asked for easements payments in lieu and i understand you are working on impact fees to although you can apply those to after the fact stuff you can only apply those to new development and there's always grants and special assessments and bonding which you guys are familiar with for a lot of this infrastructure dennis brought up the idea of doing an improvement district like church street marketplace well that's a good question i mean there are special assessment districts and then often those expire  those are used you set up the district you tax the property owners within it you build the infrastructure and and then once the infrastructure is built the district expires  yeah well i think dorset street south burlington is up for diversity tree that's the only example like that comes to mind immediately but you know there are these other improvement districts really but that is in most places in the country a legitimate way to do this to the marketplace district is a business improvement district and i don't know i have feeling it was done through their charter and not necessarily through a statutory enabling that's something i would need to check on but they do it is a function of the city but there's also a separate five a one c for the marketplace and you sounds like you know more than i do i just know jeff beck who does that or my wife's partner was one of the guys who founded it so i've gotten lessons over the years and so it is it is an interesting i mean they they have basically two ones for parking they manage parking through a downtown improvement district and then there's another that's going to church street marketplace  and it is it is a city district and there's a city charter but it's private there's a private there's a camera associated with everybody that faces church street they pay above and beyond  so but again that's that's based on a lot of existing higher density development that's already in place and you know i mean that's a good example of that started as a vision so when it started in this created to where it is today i mean they sort of where similar to where we were laying out a vision and you know they didn't do it overnight and we're not going to do it overnight so it's it's a good example of what can happen you know i mean that they had to make a conscientious decision to stop allowing traffic on church street to go forward with something that was very expensive to business owners but with a vision that would bring pedestrian traffic and increase business and bring restaurants and it's worked in my opinion so i mean it's a we could look to that as an example of a way to do it so there are some options in there that we can explore again it doesn't necessarily some of these things will actually have to tie into the regulations like if you have impact things and stuff they should be referenced in the regs so we can we can do that as we go forward others are just something though we can look at on the side with staff as we go through this process so back to your last question you asked whether we should just kind of who leaves out is nice to caesar we'd like to versus rags and for my two cents as i would i don't think laying out the vision of this is what we'd like to see ever really goes well so i would like to see us you know if this is if we're laying out a vision of it to see as adopt regulations that support that mission and look outside of the district to see if for instance to your point if we decide that dead end streets and some of that doesn't make sense that we ought to really look at outside of th again some basic standards with more guidance in the master plan i think we would there's a there's a there's a risk it's it's more like put a framework in place with guidance on the various points within that framework and then sort of seeing what works because if we try to get too great you know it's on us like we're going to put ourselves in a box and not be able to adjust or or modify easily when something is working or doesn't work ninety ninety one i think so we also build that into the tribute on a regular i mean that's that's i'm not talking about the how but i don't know that we know enough and maybe this is your point about using other other reference points but we don't know enough right now that to build a really solid regulation framework well i'm assuming that at some point because i keep thinking about this is the second presentation the last few weeks and you keep raising all these questions and i'm assuming at some point we're going to always or staff is going to weigh in on where you want to be and why do you want buildings up against the streets or are you going to say that the standard should be you know public space and we want twenty five feet i mean but as soon as someone we have to like stark and defended we do and again we're taking our direction from the existing master plan knowing that you haven't adopted it yet but we are using that kind of bizarre our guide and doing the regulations but you're right there's a lot of room in there and one of the concerns as you've said and we've heard from staff is that under the current master plan or regulations there are rules that guide there i mean there's regulations in place but there's not a lot of guidance and the regs aren't very prescriptive so i think yeah you're right we're going to need to try to find a balance between being too prescriptive or  block can't be you know more than so and so many verses saying this is what we want here and being able to apply that in a regulatory process so  captured some of the conceptual things like that i forget the phrasing was a mid block connectivity you know we did that with the development that's across from chase in fifteen we  require the connectivity back in full now so i mean to me that was an example wasn't it just that was something we built into it if that framework is a status that there will be connectivity again we won't miss i get the challenges from the developers about next step is for you and mark i mean is it to get good with staff ok yes it is actually probably sooner than later having and going i mean i think going through the regs on my own but at some point yeah it's getting together with staff and then bringing back things to do something where i mean we've heard enough we've not we haven't heard enough we've heard you know a number of presentations and now it's almost time to look at what is a real recommendation not just you know these are what we can look at but daschle look at something i mean i think we've got to be close to that any partly disha liz are you comfortable with these concepts as specifically as they're going to apply within out but then if somebody wants to put a building there the line can easily go around the building without any amendments would that be possible with an official  yeah yeah again though it depends on how you define it on the map again they're not surveyed right away so there usually is something for moving things around but you're also at that point defining it based on what you want for that like if you have a path you want to direct route you may not want it to get moved but if it if there's flexibility yeah  space areas or you know if you were going to build a new school and you wanted it over here the danger in some of that kind of stuff is that all this and that land it kind of and i know you know working with south burlington there's things they don't put on their official map because they know they want it but they want to be able to negotiate for it outside of the regulatory process  that's a consideration too that's why i said maybe you're it that's one of my questions are you comfortable enough with your current process in terms of this we are looking at a small space that i mean i think and that's the other pieces are not looking at the full community we're not looking at you know huge open parcels of land we're looking at stuff that is pretty well already pretty well developed and we're looking to try to guide you know the redesigns the redevelopment or that you know the feel so good that's why this might be reasonable for this section might be more reasonable and help provide another tool for developers and staff and everything as compared to you know looking at the whole community which then could you know potentially have not just an increase in property values but it couldn't decrease property values if we say we don't want something over there you know there are definitely winners and losers that's it can be controversy it seems like i mean based on what we've seen come in over the last few years we're we have we number of times we said our hands are tied you know this might just i don't know th zoning it's a separate map it's like a zoning map but it's in there often confuse like you know trail now so we have in the town plan but it would be incorporated in the regs right and say these are where these are supposed to go i mean in your review i mean you guys would obviously talk and if you feel that that we already do that and it's already commented by our existing nashton let's not throw another piece of paper in there just for the sake of throwing something else in but if with the c next process and project in mind if it provides a better tool for that sort of three design like we want the sidewalks we want the streets we want the like you said we want the buildings up here we want the that might be a better designed to help deal with this this this they actually have a pretty aggressive program so with the city center whatever it's called that is just blank and that's a very different back to already developed yeah i mean in this case it would probably be just showing where you want connections where you want to make sure they happen in redevelopment if we end up looking at either new buildings going in or old buildings we place we have something laid out expected that might help guide some of the you know you talked before not about placement of buildings arrangement of buildings  you know i look i look at a lot of this and you know what we do streets and i was pretty we can set some pretty objective you know it's what we really want to see come up above grade over talking about is you know street layout how we do all this stuff and you know i think i still think that you know the tough decisions are still still really to come i think this is this gives gives us a good view of what you know how we can do this and where we want to focus what we do sharon would you be able to what if the we'd be able to incorporate some of the relates to that that we haven't gotten to that in our discussions yet but the difference in height i think especially in the mixed use south there's that that carries things so one of the good that was one thing i wanted to cover was official maps yeah there we sort of touch time was what they wanted stronger stand prescriptive standards versus more general standards tied to more specific guidance things that aren't necessarily in the regulations there in your public work standards so actually i think it's great that you do that that you you've got because again the public work standards are very much more technical standards that and you can change those without going through the bylaws men and process if they're in your public work standards and not in your your regulations but you definitely need to link the two and i think you guys have done a really good job with that again working in some other communities we're all in one or all the other and never the twain shall meet and it or they're actually conflicting that whatever's in the wind is rags conflicts with what's in the public works standards you know and there's truth to it as you're probably aware traditionally there's been a budding of hands between planners and public works and fire department really you know that kind of extends everywhere and we're all trying to get on the same page because i think you know again there are valid concerns on each side of that  so that's why i would suggest that we try to work with with us and public works guys because we've we've got to the two roles are almost or there's a significant difference i mean the public works is trying to make sure that we can do everything that is being asked of them and the planners are trying to ask for more and do so it's it's you know catching up versus versus looking ahead and that's it's what i will say that sometimes we ask for width for even a fire lane is usually twenty feet but again in urban areas are adapting their they're buying many pumpers versus full blown fire trucks are buying smaller plows you know to plow urban streets and again you have a smaller area so it's always a question of whether it's you know it's some point going to be cost effective to do that or probably you know as dennis said it's probably not the right now but again it's a question and that's the question for the planning commission and the select board is do you want to stick with this vision and if so it does mean that it relates to all these other decisions down the road  at this point they wouldn't carry the same legal weight as the land use regulations but boy i really hope we can avoid butting heads too much because that creates problems for everybody well again if you reference them in the rags and that's what i usually recommend as you reference your technical specs in the rags but you keep the those desiccation sad computer yeah i think you do too like having these discussions which are great because we need to know what the planning commission is feeling before we get into the weeds we don't want to start writing regulations when you're not on the same page and don't have the same vision and don't want to use the same tools but that those those days will come and we're really going to have to get into it we're not here right now but we will be sooner rather than later what do you what do you feel you need or want from us tonight beyond the discussion we've had so far as are the pieces that you feel we need now this is that the guidance in terms of the pa forward is what i'm really looking for at this point so if they fall and that makes sense i think that gives us some direction and i don't think we have it without seeing the actual application of some of these concepts i don't think anybody at the table said any i haven't heard anybody having any really drastic you know i'm not i'm not we don't we're not doing that i haven't heard anybody say that anything it's been that's been we'll make it so you know when some of this when you have gotten great you know that once we see how it applies that's when some of these big flags may start showing up because we knew this is not we didn't mean that we didn't understand it before actually seeing it is that to raise that flag you know i think you know as far as you know connectivity is treason once you start putting so then on top of how you deciding what your building types are and everything else  if it it should make a lot more sense isn't it a lot and yeah i mean that work if you're making us you're you're helping us become more familiar with with each of these layers that we're talking about and we're kind of working from the ground up i mean we did start with l but this street now where does create the plan or the pattern of development and then it's a question how we feel that we're also asking how where where th whether it's in the regulations or for a new guy i will say that you know if we decide to go it really prescriptive standards and you're right now think we're there yet but if we do because so much of this involves and redevelopment will have to do with foreign based code guys call calibrating will have to actually go out and get some measurements to make sure that what we're per proposing fits that it's not just some ideal that would never happen on the ground right exactly it would create a lot of non conforming properties so that's part of the challenge too and that's actually is the nerd part of the team in the design or guys in the know that that's often the tension there it's like well that's really cool on paper but how does it work on the ground you know what kind of regs will make that happen so you know again that's a discussion going forward too but that's one of the questions i had where you were ok with really strong guidance or you wanted actual you know the block shall be this wide this long and i think there's room for both but we'll have to be very careful it would be it might be helpful  talked about this and other things that as we're as we're starting to talk about we want this regulation here and so forth this actually puts and brings some examples if we did this in this in this section this is what we could you know assert maybe putting it in context again to make it three dimensional and not just a one dimensional you know if we did this sample applications or something yeah if we did this and in that in the south in the southwest block this is what could go there you it's going to help me see what these things might be doing and obviously it's not going to be in a is going to limit switching do it we don't we're not trying to design for the applicants but to know what what that might mean i think this might come in for a lot of the building things that you talk about you know putting some of this might rights away in piecemeal if that's the case i'm pretty sure that's what it is but putting it on a map says ok this is where we want to put it there's possibly some you know something in the ground that makes up easier because there was a railroad bed there are one point maybe isn't completely gone i'm not one hundred percent sure about that i haven't we haven't done title searches or anything but you might have heard from people that's the case so do we have i mean are there any other thoughts comments questions just like i mean i think i'm a little nervous about being like all guidelines and i'd like to see see a nice mix there so that's really clear the applicant and you know it's really clear what what it is that they have to do then walk inviting a little more  guidelines so i'm i guess i personally favor of trying to beef the regulations up with this as much as possible that makes sense without being burdensome well put i totally agree and a lot of communities that look at more prescriptive regulations do have to immediately tweak it afterwards because their first application showed all those things you have to consider but that's part of the process of you know calibrating him to name them as well and i will say you know form base prescriptive so that you basically just get is going permit for major development because they're so tightly defined that it's a ministry of review process at that point but you're right that you know even in south burlington where they have an city center there are already trying to deal with non conforming days and the developers who push for reform based code in that now they want flexibility worth remembering that i don't think any of any of us have embraced the approach that we're going to fall for based code but we're talking hybrid so yeah exactly that is something to remember yeah and that's where the that's where the leeway comes in i think it's  balance i mean you can't have guidelines without having regulations to to provide some to make them make some requirements if you don't have a guidelines without without regulations  just nice discussion points and that's how they all say discretionary standards without guidelines are often hard to interpret and consistently apply see you're right indeed that's that's the challenge that's the fun part yeah so before we wrap up for this evening our audience and our public would you like to chime in outside good point and we a couple of our first meet our first session and this we talked about the boundaries and looking at the relation to properties i mean the intent is to not divide a property like that unless there's a really good reason for it so i think we will be really looking at those boundaries i don't know which particular property you have but it has that covered the first the first layout had a lot of properties that were split and i think we've been that was a discussion point that we didn't think we should split the properties whenever possible but it's important kyra i think yeah in that case it is a pretty big property so we can talk to you i mean certainly there's going to be an upcoming meeting where we bring in a proposed joining map infective early and that would be the time to discuss it but yeah base boundaries is based on where the sewer court goes i'm not really is something that we don't have want to flexibility around but the zoning can be a little more flexible potentially to allow the developer to have it in a way that makes sense but still is in line with anyway right yeah but i think we also need to stop you know we've been on the history of no changes to the sewer corps and that's great and that maybe we were for our lifetimes but long term things that's not going to work but  time but we're expanding it because of a plant well this is a great example of that i mean if we're saying this is where we want to density and development and they're going to be your parcels a prime example and maybe where you want to stub out and have a slight expansion of it to get a little more believe so we've done it when we have parcels that are partly in our one and partly and we see that come out in that as part of the development happen the density and he usually that you just take the more restrictive i think is that right you're allowed to you know but it's part of property that is split that way and you might just say we i was just saying that you know given people's concerns that have been brought forward over the past five years the standard retort has been well we need to have more regulations in order to make sure that what that that those things happen or that those other things don't happen so i am also very leery of guidelines and also just for a little background you know for one hundred years dennis has been saying no expansion to the service sewer service corps period ever that's helped us like poured out it's really worked because we've had facto urban growth boundary and but recently you know dennis is changing his tune a little bit he's like if this is the result if this is needed because the open community planning process that's different a lot different than a developer walking in and saying i want to i want to develop this i need this store over there super over there you know this is this is not just a you know this is as you said  water and sewer and i'm sure he has got some document that lays it all out of the big picture look at this mean different stuff from him on pumps and stations and multi year plan yes he's got a actually what's happening right now with a serious study that is almost ready to come back to us so can we see that pretty soon you have that interesting thing with water a lot of it is part of c w d s system so i think they probably have some documents around that as well and we're going to see if i formation on that specifically for this area ok well let's we've got some more stuff this feels like a good break point thank you  this is ben this is a this is a good discussion tonight in my mind it was it was good but it certainly helped well you know give me there's a couple of things i thought might go on   so they created a district of the property owners there and i don't know how they prorated the cost but they tax those properties within that i think they bonded for the improvements and then tax the properties to pay back live on with the improvement district in burlington that's a fee that's assessed separate from property so you don't have to do that officially but do we do people normally do that anyway upgrades in your neck and you're going to be able to see higher density and better service if we do this whereas if we don't have to pay upfront every time you do you you know when you do your development so well dennis is very protective of the town incurring any costs and so he he just yawns well you know this is like oh an urban area is the developer pays for all the booze stirs and you guys guys start doing it approaching in that way not bonding or anything silly one thing i'll just bring up quickly for you to think about for an upcoming meeting about uses and stuff but one of the recommendations and i am reading through dennis's is to allow for parking here is this principle uses not just accessory that would allow for municipal lots and or private lots commercial lots