customers that are paying the excise tax the customers paid the burden of the excise tax we don't disagree with that but the statutes and if you look at the regulations but you  them what about the terms and conditions of the contract you have with your customers right you had a contract with them your isp ongoing business relationship with them through the contract terms and conditions st specifically the  taxes shall be paid by and user there's nothing in you know the rise for the services do not include the excise tax there's nothing in the regulations to the extent you're asking about the continuing business relationship no no i'm asking legal matter those taxes were the burden of eight by eight they were the ones that had to pay it so why didn't you tell your clients they didn't have to pay that money to you well because we were charging them for the cost of the tax that we're not  carrier didn't have to collect the tax from us but we were still liable for it whether or not they collected it so we paid the taxes ourselves deal with the fact that in the regulation it says those exemptions specifically do you know fly to a now you're seeking a refund you're not entitled to know we were following the law section forty two fifty three f says that the carrier doesn't have to collect tax if the service of being transferred to a telephone or telegraph company and we were all were lying upon that transfer a reseller so if you considered yourself a transfer removed reseller you could not have filed the exemption for well be that as it may if i had remained liable for the tax liable for the tax we're still liable for the taxes just that the carrier doesn't have to collect it from us that that's what the what dead to two says that are two to one in two that if the carrier gets the notice and as long as they don't have any reason to believe it's wrong they don't have to collect the tax but that doesn't mean that we don't have to pay the tax we settle general place to carriers it doesn't apply to transfer reseller sellers well i think it does include transferee resellers i don't know how you get around the language and do what it says the purchaser remains liable for the tax impose shift which is that the transfer is the person liable for the tax paid on the p t c and thus it's the person that can request the credit i'm interested in your relationship with your client's relationship customers if they didn't pay that three percent would you still providing that service well they had to pay up front so they had to they had to pay the amount that they were built and when they did that they got the service if they paid something less they wouldn't they wouldn't get a service my answer to the question you were driving to ensure they flew the excise tax it was built to them and they paid that they paid the equivalent of the tax they didn't now we weren't same you are paying the tax we're explaining why we were billing them what we were going to mean that's because we were liable for the i'm sorry are you really saying if i get a bill from a telephone company that has an amoun tax to their customers it's no different if there had been a property tax hike and that the rest right now raises their prices no it's completely different because when i get a menu i don't get a menu that says the price of crab is thirty dollars plus here is an extra milk for the property tax that's different when you include it into long term price i agree if all you did was pass on and say here you pay thirty dollars for these services and don't break out the excise tax you might have some good faith argument you didn't break you didn't include it all together you broke out the excise tax well all i can tell your honor is that a pay was trying to be transparent about why the customers were being billed what they were built and part of part of what they were being billed what was a cost equal to the amount of the tax imposed but the equal to exactly and the and the fact is that  customers are legally entitled to a tax refund and that can only be if they were tax payers is that not correct well i'd say the customers are not entitled to a refund if this was a p t c arrangement if this was a p well that the customer is what it would if you saw the refund separately we wouldn't even know about it that's why the stipulation is is so vague because if any refund request would occur entirely separate questions like to reserve the balance of my time three the exemption language and whether  certificate to their carrier suppliers that they were exempt and if they had actually been a transferee reseller they would not have filed this exemption and instead would have paid the taxes directly to the clerk that's correct that's how the regulation works the points that i want to made frankly were made by the court during the questioning if there's anything that i can explain from our grief do you think there's a good basis for this argument being made by your friend and i don't was was responsible for the tax and everything and it paid the tax so i think i think with respect i think that's that's a red herring the issue with in this case the the deal the deal to do their thing with your own money you didn't pay the tax with your own money you paid the tots with your customers money so if you want to take advantage of it you owe the i r s a lot of money and you need to refund your customers a lot of well of course the customers paid their bill and it was from that pool of money that you buy pay paid the tax i don't but but the tax burden under the notice of the statute was aimed squarely at eight by eight the by aig was a telephone or telegraph company that was its good faith position and which makes it responsible for collecting the tax from its customers well it makes this what you're c f o testify no know what makes it liable for the clearly you will believe you were not required to pay the tax now when you see the opportunity of a windfall you're changing your legal theory of what you are liable for what i do disagree that it will win firearm or it was the government that