closet of their home in fort madison i was in august of two thousand and fourteen i have by fort madison police officer corrupt judge the district court in the southern district of iowa ruled that officer judd's actions were objectively reasonable and granted summary judgment in favor of officer judd captain james carle and the city of fort madison police department we're here urging the court find that the young the facts of this case in the light most favorable to the swear engines and all reasonable inferences in their favor that officer judge actions were not objective the reasonable and that the fourth amendment rights against unreasonable seizure was violated as a result and that the law was clearly established that the fourth amendment prohibits officer judge conduct in shooting ryans where engine in this way or engine home and what law do you cited specifically for aspect of the case are the craighead chase in the nance vs salman's case in which this court found that there is existing case law that an officer must have probable cause to believe that a suspect poses a threat of force but in we believe this is an obvious case where officer judge based on the circumstances that confronted him would have determined that his use of deadly force against ryan's where engine was objectively unreasonable so we believe that the craig had case in the nance case are most persuasive on that point what do you what do you say are the undisputed facts of the what happened in class i'm sure the  read all that i just wanted zero in on what happened when the officer opened the closet door sure and what's undisputed as to what swear engine was doing how he was positioned and where the knife was and so for now the disputed facts in your honor are are really two fold number one where was ryan position in the closet the fact stablished that he was not looking at officer joe that he was looking into the kitchen where his father was and were officers rigs the left hip and those shots were going from back to front so ryan had to have been turned facing the kitchen away from officer judge at the time he was shot through the facts show the distance between ryan and those individuals that you say  was was facing the facts indicate he was a better partner does do the do the facts in the record show the distance between ryan and those in the kitchen that you mention the father in the other officers with what that distance was between them yeah the distance between officer judd and ryan in the closet was estimated between two entry fee between the closet in the kitchen was of substantially farther distance by probably six to eight feet or sixty eight inside the back door of the of the morning this closet apparently has a door on each side one on the laundry room side and one on the kitchen side no one to those of goes from the lot of room to an adjoining bedroom it's a walk through closet so if you enter from the laundry room into the kitchen into the closet right yes and then if you come out the other side what room are you way to a bedroom in the kitchen is beyond the better now the kitchen is perpendicular to the hallway this the form the laundry room when you open up the closet door the laundry room is to the left you look ahead to your right and the kitchens ahead and then  far right is that the bedroom could you exit from the closet to the kitchen you can enter to the closet from the laundry room which is next door adjacent to the kitchen i see so there's no direct entry from the closet to the kids  record right you know what you have saturday when you say that where engine was looking at the people in the kitchen that means he was oriented to the same side of the closet as the laundry room yes looking out the closet door ok so he was looking out the side that was opening toward the officers yes and there was a sliding door or a pole it was a door on his way into that opened out into the laundry room so as as officer judd walked by  saw the closet door move in was told by officer ribs is there somebody in the closet he pulled the closet door open with his right hand with his left hand shot ryan's were injured and where was the knife where is the evidence about where the knife was at the time of the shooting that's the next disputed fact when the light most favorable to swear in general or was the night it would have been held down to the side in ryan's right hand with the point of the night up toward the back yard and also saw him holding a knife like that when he saw ryan get shot are there any facts and indicate there was danger to the officer who fired the shots or to the other individuals who were present in our kitchen yeah our contention your honor is that the officers who were in the kitchen were not in danger they were with ivan officer karo who preceded officer judd into the house from the back door said he didn't feel in danger officer judge was the only one who claimed that he had any apprehension of danger to himself the make a claim that he perceived danger to the others who were present well  judge contended that he didn't see any threat toward any of the occupants of the house including ivan or rhonda or the children that were in the house or the sister that was in the house there was no visible evidence that anybody in the house was in an adjoining any kind of dan ger in fact arayan runs father ivan was repeatedly asking the officers do you have a warrant what are you doing in the house rhonda asked what was going on in the house nobody asked for any assistance from any of the officers nobody was held by ryan in the closet had any danger to officer judd moreover the officers who were in the kitchen one of whom had a taser pointed at the closet was prepared to use non lethal force and could have easily dispatched ryan without the use of deadly force so we believe that first of all judge misapprehended what the danger was it was reasonable for him to believe that he was in imminent danger no one else in the house was in an eminent in any imminent danger there were non lethal instruments available to to do ready the situation and make it safe for everybody regardless of any apprehension of fear or danger of serious injury when the home would be the strongest argument against a line of cases that we haven't discussed mistaken but reasonable beliefs on the part of officers our strongest argument on that your honor is that there are disputed facts about what that danger was and we believe that those facts are best reconciled by a jury examining the testimony of the disputed witnesses the observations are in dispute and generally speaking just what the fear was now granted this was a situation that was influx we don't dispute that there was pandemonium in the house  the family had been awakened by a barking dog banging at the back door so the results of confusion obvious but in taking apart the case looking at the objective facts and again viewing those acts in the  about the nature of the underlying criminal conduct that gave rise to the the pursuit the first place how do you think that colors this particular case in our view are your order riots where engine was they knew his family there it was a misdemeanor property offense and not a crime of personal violence so in view of that and again based on what officer judd knew based on what he had heard and the only thing that officer judge heard was that somebody was being chased it was ryan swear engine he was being chased into this where engine home and he'd been seen popping tires so it was a property crime vandalism that he was being pursued for thank you good afternoon ma'am please the court my name is patrick o'connell of went to jail as p c and i represent officer carl in this matter as well as the city of fort madison captain james carle the not be more a political to what officer judge faced on august third twenty fourteen when he opened the closet door with what happened when he opened the closet he opened the closet door back up just a couple of seconds he saw the closet door move as he was going down this narrow mud room that was somewhat confusing and mr specious argument and a minute ago there was a narrow mud room with a washer and dryer on the left and a and he basically a sheer wall on the right in this closet door is recessed into this wall so when canton carle first entered after breaking the glass and proceeded down the hallway the judge was behind him all right both captain karl and officer judge with were within mirror feet of this this opening of which they were not aware they simply were not aware of the closet until they got into the to the to the residence and what was interesting about this whole after back up a little bit because i want to get to what officer judd knew as he was walking forward with this closet on his right which he was not aware or he he enters the house after having seen ryan swear engine what he considered to be an ambush position by the back door into the kitchen and disappearing from view through the kitchen so he's thinking the suspect is back in the house someplace in terms of the news for the well they were nearly simultaneous but as they were breaking the glass in the back door they looked forward and noticed that smile a bitch and briggs were already in the house and they had been there for some seconds because they had come in the front and they were at that point beginning to grapple with i don't swear engine the father so as the proceeding into the house they're focused on the struggle in front of them and ryan has disappeared what's unusual about this fact pattern of what's frankly frightening for the officers is that he disappeared out of sight went through the bedroom came through the opposite side of the closet and came in behind them and that is what precipitated the death of ryan swear engine will get back to my question what happened when obviously didn't open the door he opened the door with his right hand he testified that is a left hand shooter you open the door with his right hand he had the weapon in his left hand the glock forty in his left hand and immediately saw ryan with a knife the green knife which is then described by pretty much everyone as being in his possession in a day what he described as a dagger like position all right and he said that what i observed when i opened the door was ryan looking toward me looked to me and initially he said raised up as if to launch in his in his deposition he said well i can tell you for sure he was in the full upright position when i fired he said that in his deposition he said i saw the ninth i saw the green handle and he looked at me and i looked at him and he was specifically asked by mr speed did you make eye contact and he said well no but i know i was looking at his face and he was looking at me so from the office he believed the knife was in the raised because he believed the knife was in a raised visit well and he said he saw it ok and know when i was in the res position ryan was actually facing away from him he would have been facing toward the front of the house because of the way the hollow hallway is oriented the door opens in this way in this manner so that it opens toward the kitchen so when he opened the door ryan was facing toward the kitchen he was looking directly at the back of officer car so he was going towards god would have seen him in profile judd would have seen him more or less from the side which you know none of this is surprising in this part of the reason why skinner believed these were not material facts in dispute because i understand the argument that because he was facing this way you would have expected that there would have been entry wounds coming from the side with a slightly back different trajectory because of where officer judge was in the hallway he was it was a rest of the closet he said that consistent with my training i backed up to give myself space and control over the weapon because the suspect was within two and a half feet of him and he fired and you would expect to see a trajectory like that if somebody was facing toward your partner whose back is a mere fog four or five feet away from a knife and i have to defend myself but he also mentioned that the other officers were right there he was cognizant of the fact hartman was behind them albeit blocked by the door ok and this is one thing that i think is also factually important hartman could not see what happened you know the notion that hartman would have seen something different is false ok the only person who saw what ryan was doing at the time the shots were fired was officer ju because hartmann testified frankly he said i did i couldn't see the door was open in my face and i had to come around the door and he specifically said and i can quote him in the deposition he was round as i was rounding the door and my laser is on him but he's already falling to the ground ok so any notion that there's a disputed issue of material fact about where the knife was is false that's just absolutely not demonstrated by the record ok where mr speed has attempted to create an issue of material fact is the photograph which is there is a photograph actually that the d c i has of officer hartman demonstrating what he saw in ryan doing as he was pacing back and forth inside the house before he entered the house and he specifically has the knife demonstrated in this fashion with his arm down well and his way ryan was pacing around in the house before they entered the house that has nothing to do with what officer her and saw at the time of the shooting he saw nothing at the time of the shooting because the door was fritos face that's why he testified that he had to go around it by the so by the time he came around ryan is already slumping and he does say and this is interesting because mr species asking the question in the deposition he said well was his arm up or down was his arm down and hartman specifically sa that appendix two fifty five quote as i was i'm sorry he says to fifty four of the appendix he says no i would have been it it would have been within my view not necessarily handed down but somewhere up above where i could have seen him at some point seen that ok so the only thing that apartment tells you is that when he came around the door he saw the blade it doesn't say that it was down or that it was some place where officer judd couldn't have seen it you get two different statements that are destroyed in support hold on the district court says that hartmann demonstrated the holding of the ninety's that you're talking about both the way he had seen him in general carrying the knives around because remember the officers were all looking in the back door for a long time and watching him pace about and in an unresponsive manner and he what he was demonstrating in that picture was what the what the general manner in which he carried the knife around but it's evident from the deposition testimony that he couldn't have seen that he didn't see anything because the door was straightness face he says he came around the door and obviously the shots already been fired at that point you're maybe only talking a matter of seconds but what he would have seen two to three seconds later or whatever was would have been different than what officer judd saw at the moment he fired and that it is totally undisputed the judge was the only person with a vantage point of seeing him with a knife and he said jugs credibility disputed i don't know how it could be because no one's plaintiff might say he's lying to  his left shoulder so that shows you that he was at the threshold just like officer riggs says he is he comes came from the front of the house he saw that door start to crack and saw that shoulder so i don't see as he could see that and that's no question he probably could from where he was standing so how long it i haven't been in the house or how long have the apple e been in the house before he opened the closet it would have been a matter of a couple of minutes he was chased carrying the knives into the back door slammed the door and captain carles face unlocked it and then some amount of yelling back and forth between the police took place i want to say it was two minutes between the time they got to the back door and began saying you need to let us in on the time the shots were fired roughly was very fast specifically how long from the time the officers were in  was the door of the closet open it would have been just a matter of a couple of a few seconds for them to traverse from the back door to where the closet was to the the employee came directly in and opened the door with his gun in position to protect himself or someone he came in i wouldn't say he directed he he whatever distance of time it took to walk to that closet when he saw it  move so you're talking just a matter of a few seconds so when you say he was the door coming open or was the door going close and he see the door was moving it was starting to open according to officer judd and so and also it went to open it more quick right he saw it move and he thought it is someone in there and he pulled the door open and that's what all then within seconds of entering the back of the residence so there's been no discussion among the officers about how to  approach this suspect or whether to enter it wasn't under instruction to enter it just going to happen which is that right no one even knew the closet was there and so there was no plan obviously to go into  it remember that ryan disappeared from view and went around in through the bad the bedroom and came through and basically was attempting to come out right where they were entering the house which is why all the officers reasonably under the objective of this case thought they were being ambushed and there was facts that happened before that that led them to believe that was his mindset for instance he was tucked up against the back door with knives at chest level when officer judge said to him and this is all in the in the record he said i walked up to the glass i pointed my weapon through there and said you better put those knives down because when we come in there there's a chance you'll be shot and that was when they broke the glass and ryan sprinted off into the house still carrying the knobs so officer judd's mindset it and i mean if we look at the case law that we have in front of us you know we have morgan and we have krueger where the officers mindset is discussed and the things that are in his mind at the time he opens that closet door he's already experienced what he sees to be a dangerous and unusual behavior pattern on the part of iran there was undisputed testimony that he's walking around in the kitchen and i'm going to quote i'll quote the language used by the appellants council he said he was unresponsive and oblivious now when an officer sees an armed person with a knife who is unresponsive then oblivious that's their their words and their citation of the record not mine he's already thinking this person is already trying to hide behind the door he's trying to ambush as we're coming in the house so as he's heading down the hallway i would urge the court to look at the morgan case and the cruder case where the distances were much greater where there was much more time to evaluate the circumstances than what officer judd had available to him all he had was a split second ok that language about split second and rapidly evolving is applicable here is that ever was in any case do you think the district court based decision on the assumption that the ryan at the ninth raised when the door was open or do you think the district court was saying whether it was raised or whether it was down in that position that you displayed early years not material i think i think judge groups now was saying that those are distinctions without a difference and in our case law i think that you're saying he you think th even assuming the knife was held down with the blade pointing up the force was still justified i think so and i think that would be in light of the cook case it be hard to see why it would matter as much appendix for eighty six is the is where officer hartmann is depicted and they would be around in that area of the appendix where the other photographs are i see them thank you carle captain carle was at the back door officer hartman soon arrived went over the side of the house to make sure there was no way for for ryan to get to the house so at this point the house was completely surrounded by police officers  they both knew that there were policemen in the in the in the kitchen that ivan was under control that there were police officers in the kitchen with non lethal weapons available of rig already had his taser with focused on the closet hartman had his taser out ready to deploy and when when hartman came around the door of the closet door he said he believed look with that taser on ryan's left shoulder and again the autopsy results show that ryan was shot from the back left the bullets went from his back toward the front he was facing the kitchen he wasn't facing officer judge these are disputed facts that a jury is entitled to resolve on behalf of the swearing concerning the warning that officer judd supposedly gave again it did appear that ryan was oblivious to that i've never heard the warning about a drop in the lives you're going to get shot lived with his family at that house in years past there are plenty of alternatives available the shooting of ryan's where engine was unnecessary and her fourth amendment law a jury's entitled to decide these disputed