good afternoon the subcommittee on domestic policy of the committee of oversight and government reform will now come to order i'm pleased to be joined by ranking member mr jordan of ohio today's hearing will examine the successes  failures of current u s drug policy under the office of national drug policy control and the the office of national drug control policy and the priorities and objectives of zero in d c p under the new administration how those goals are reflected in the two thousand and ten fiscal year national drug control budget without objection the chair in the ranking minority member will have five minutes to make opening statements followed by opening statements not to exceed three minutes by any other member who seeks recognition and without objection members and witnesses may have five legislative days to submit a written statement or extraneous materials for the record we're here today to address the priority the drug policy priorities and the two thousand and ten budget for the office of national drug control policy which is now under the leadership of the newly confirmed director kerlikowske i'd like to start by congratulating mr kerlikowske on his confirmation i'm extremely pleased that president obama chose such a highly qualified individual for the job and i truly look forward to working together i'd also like to reaffirm the majority's commitment to mr jordan that we intend to work in a bipartisan fashion in overseeing the on d c p and its ability to create effective policy to reduce drug use and its harmful consequences i was pleased to read director kerlikowske interview with the wall street journal last week during which acknowledge that we need to abandon the metaphor of the nation's quote war on drugs and quote clearly the war waged since the  by former president richard nixon has failed but we need to do more than change the label we must also change the policy the current national strategy which emphasizes incarceration and interdiction to reduce drug use and it's hard pull consequences has clearly failed the united states ranks first in the world in per capita incarceration rates with five percent of the world's population but twenty five percent of the world's prisoners roughly five hundred thousand people are behind bars drug law violation and a racial disparity in the rest incarceration numbers largely a result of selective enforcement and federal mandatory minimum sentences for crack cocaine is unacceptable and despite these record breaking numbers drugs have only become cheaper stronger and accessible in the u s the largest consumer of drugs in the world this record of failure is not tolerable and require substantial reform despite promising statements by the new administration a new director kerlikowske the fiscal year two thousand ten budget does not reflect a changed approach to fighting drug abuse well there's increased emphasis on treatment programs the spending allocated to supply scientists should have still vastly outweighs the demand side programs the two thousand and ten budget actually the spending gap by allocating sixty five point six percent of the budget to supply side initiatives and only thirty four point four percent to demand side efforts as we will hear from our witnesses today spending nearly two dollars on supply side programs for every dollar on demand side programs makes little sense considering the vast social scientific data showing that demand side initiatives especially drug treatment and prevention are far more effective in combat and drug drug use now i understand director kerlikowske that you've not yet been that you were not confirmed while this budget was being perhaps it does not reflect fully yours or the new administration's intended direction under your directorship we need to hear from you today on that point where we don't have time to evaluate every important drug policy issue here today if you want mentioning first our international supply side programs should be evaluated to ensure they're not doing more harm than good i'm deeply deeply concerned about the practice of aerial fumigation of coca crops in central and south america which is destroying the livelihoods of small farmers and is increasing the rate of rain forest defeat destruction additionally the merida initiative designed to assist mexico in its fight against drug trafficking needs to be watched closely to ensure the u s is not fueling the violence by creating power vacuums when we help take our cartel leaders second we cannot afford to concentrate so much of our effort on youth marijuana use at the expense of address dressing the needs of addicts of harder drugs  not getting sufficient treatment under the current strategy in two thousand and six nearly half of all arrests for drug law violations were for marijuana with nearly seven hundred and forty thousand fo possession alone public leaders from all over the world and across the political spectrum are starting to call for a robust debate on whether legalizing marijuana would reduce drug related crime and provide other benefits and may the sixth of this year california governor arnold schwarzenegger stated publicly that the discussion over whether to legalize and tax marijuana for recreational use in california would benefit from a large scale study to show the possible impact of such a change the el paso texas city council passed a resolution earlier here urging congress to consider some form of decriminalization or legalization as a way to undercut organized crime as the nation's leading drug policy maker the o n d c p as an obligation to begin to study this issue a good place to start is commissioning the national academy of sciences to examine available research and provide an objective overview of the risks and benefits associated with marijuana policy and marijuana use third has the new administration is now recognized the drug problem in the us is a public health crisis and drug policy should reflect a desire to reduce harms associated with drug use according to the u s centers for disease control and prevention thirty six percent of age cases in the united states can be traced back to intervene its drug use the own d c p cannot afford to ignore the strong scientific consensus that needle exchange programs are effective at reducing the transmission of hiv without leading to more drug abuse i'm going to submit the rest of this statement of mine for the record and now interdiction diligent prevention strong all enforcement effective treatment i'm troubled by attorney general holder's announcement that the federal government will no longer read medical marijuana facilities in california marijuana is the drug most readily available to our youth reports indicate that almost any adult who enters a medical marijuana facility and complains of a headache can leave with marijuana and turn around and distribute that drug to anyone takers including young people eighteen year old high school students to get prescription for marijuana and have them filled at the dispensary is my hope that the administration listens to the science follow the law and use common sense in forcing regulations of these facilities it also concerns me to read articles like the one in the wall street journal where newly confirmed director kerlikowske arwin has called for an into the war on drugs a quote war on drugs in communities across our district i've seen the devastating effects the drugs like heroin the methamphetamines have had on families and the crime that always results from this kind of drug use and drug abuse without proper enforcement strengthening of his extinction of existing laws these tragedies will continue to occur to suggest that the government should turn its back on this issue is a failure to recognize the gravity the situation or the right course of action i'm awful trouble by president obama's stance on needle exchange that he articulated during the campaign i look forward to hearing again as i said director kerlikowske explain the administration's plan for such programs while no doubt well intentioned needle exchange programs do nothing but perpetuate deadly lifestyles and encourage for the drug abuse according to the drug free america foundation needle exchange program users are given clean needles but are not required to turn the dirty needles and rarely do the personnel of these centers refer users to rehabilitative treatment study of studies of needle exchange programs in vancouver british columbia did show did not show scuse me did not show reductions in rates of hiv hepatitis c and other infections serious infections like mercy in fact the opposite occurred rates of infection actually rose to conclude the quote war on drugs will not succeed and won't will not succeed unless we seek to destroy the drugs where they grow stop the drugs at the border and arrest those who deal and distribute drugs we commit all of your all of our law enforcement officers at the drug enforcement agency the border patrol and the coast guard they play a vital role in these efforts on the prevention and treatment front we need to encourage families churches schools and communities to educate our citizens about the dangers of drug use direct i hope you will have the courage to pull the plug on programs that are not giving the taxpayers a return on their investment i look forward to hearing from all our witnesses on efforts we can take to stop drug abuse prevent drug crime and make sure that the families and communities have the tools they need to stay drug free and i want to thank you again for you're going to serve both in your past profession in this new responsibility you want to be with us here this afternoon and i guess we're going to go vote is that ri kerlikowske it's the policy of the government oversight and reform committee to swear in witnesses so if you please rise do you solemnly swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing let the record reflect that the gentleman answered in the affirmative all witnesses will have five minutes to make their statement your entire statement will be sir that is at my current staff all on how about with only eight days on the job i think highlights will be about all i can provide at this point fed chairman to finish ranking member jordan distinguished members of the subcommittee thank you for providing me an opportunity to appear before you today and i believe very strongly in the benefits of collaboration and transparency and accountability as chief of police for nine years in seattle i enlisted that the support of the entire community to reduce crime this approach in seattle led to the lowest drug use and the serious crime rates in decline since one thousand nine hundred sixty seven well i plan to employ a similar approach in my leadership of all in d c p and i'll be guided by these principles in the development articulation and implementation of an effective comprehensive and coordinated national control control strategy but i will certainly need help and i will rely upon congress to provide its perspectives as we develop these policies thousands of americans lose their lives each year because of illicit drug use and i am deeply troubled by the recent sharp increases in drug related deaths in the latest year for which drug data are available two thousand and six overdose deaths surpassed gunshot wounds and they now rank second only to motor vehicle accidents as a cause of accidental death in our country reducing fatal drug overdoses particularly deaths involving controlled prescription drugs is an urgent challenge we know that the abuse and addiction are in the background of many other negative social consequences there is no single approach prevention treatment enforcement and interdiction must all be priorities and they are not mutually exclusive this is ministrations approach to drug control will be comprehensive and it will be evidence based now there's a perennial argument in this town over the drug control budget and i think fresh thinking is required that's why in my first week on the job i hosted meetings with experts in the prevention field representing both government and non governmental organizations to look at a fresh perspective on the united states and roache to prevention these meetings will continue and will result in concrete proposals supported by data i'm proud of the work of zero in the c p s media campaign and i know that the drug free community is program is an excellent investment but it's time also to on earth the next a great set of ideas in the field of prevention the fiscal year two thousand and ten budget summary that was delivered to you last week is focused on four major policy areas substance abuse prevention substance abuse treatment domestic law enforcement and interdiction and international counter drug support and that lays the foundation from which we will build  i provided you greater detail about this budget in both my written testimony and also in the f y two thousand and ten budget summary that our staff shared with you last week i'm sure will discuss this budget momentarily in great detail i'm also sure that w discuss the national academy of public administration report that was recently released i found the report to be thoughtful and productive for the most part in my written testimony i provided details on the steps that we are taking to address most of the recommendations in the report but with respect to the recommendation concerning the offices budget oversight responsibilities i have concerns the use of such a process would be a detriment would be detrimental to reducing the nation's drug control efforts in my view congress in vision the director of the national drug control policy is a strong advocate for drug control funding by the nature of this role i am tasked with taking a proactive view toward drug control policy without o budget authority as my ability to influence the outcome of critical resourcing decisions would be limited i came to washington mr chairman to be the champion of intelligent and far reaching drug policies adherents to this recommendation would handcuff me and those who succeed me in nine months will deliver the two thousand and ten national drug troels strategy and the supporting f y two thousand and eleven budget which focus on the nature and the scope of the problems as well as the policies and programs which will have the most meaningful impact during my tenure we will focus on developing systems to monitor the progress we're making in our drug control efforts we will be transparent about our progress we will let evidence guide our policies importantly we will be alert to new emerging drug threats and provide leadership to address them as they arise i also believe that if you can't measure it you can't improve it therefore we must establish in short order two and five year performance measures and targets for each strategy goal reducing drug use availability and consequences the performance management system currently in place begins to assess the effectiveness of inner agency efforts but it is not comprehensive or in building a more fair and equitable criminal justice system by improving and increasing services for offenders with substance abuse disorders including diversion programs such as drug court treatment services within correctional facilities and re entry programs i will also work to improve collaboration between state and local law enforcement and federal agencies this will improve our ability to reduce trafficking in illicit drugs state and local law enforcement have knowledge which needs to be communicated to federal agencies to support their efforts taskforce forces such as those supported by high end of a gentleman's time has expired but what we'll do is you know permit you time to read up ok likewise federal agencies can do a better job i want you to know mr chairman that i appreciate this opportunity to come here early in my tenure and i look forward to working with all of the members of the subcommittee as we move forward thank you thank you very much sir i'd like to begin with the question and mr kerlikowske can you elaborate on your comments to the wall street journal that we should move away from the term war on drugs and discuss how you might prefer to describe efforts by law enforcement and others to prevent illicit drug use mr chairman the the words matter when we talk about a war we talk about wars on people war limits the tools that we have most people look at war as being a war use in the only tool is force someone once told me when the only tool in the tool box is a hammer every problem starts looking like a nail i want to look at a more balanced approach i know that my colleagues around the country after my nomination was made by president obama have called me saying that they want to change the conversation not that inforce menton interdiction and source country eradication are not important but we need a more balanced a more comprehensive a more holistic approach now numerous articles on your nomination as drugs are pointed out that in two thousand and three seattle voters approved a measure making marijuana possession cases the lowest law enforcement priority you opposed to measure at the time you had said marijuana possession was already a low priority for seattle police according to news reports you abided by the prior to sation law that seattle voters approved did the initiative had any impact on violent crime or overall public safety one way or the other or did it make a difference and second part of the question do you agree with governor schwarzenegger that it's time for an evidence based study to examine available research and provide an objective overview of the risks and benefits associated with marijuana policies in answer to the first question mr chairman the initiative had no impact on the criminal us tribute put that mike a little bit closer to the initiative had no impact on the operations of the police department nor on the operations of the criminal justice system personal possession of small amounts of marijuana by an adult in any large city police department in fact in most law enforcement agencies that i know of is not a high priority we figure out with finite resources still wearing my police chief had after thirty six years how to utilize officers and detectives in the best way possible to reduce violent crime and we have priorities so the initiative had no impact i do not agree with governor schwarzenegger that it is time for a discussion on legalization i do agree that approaching this problem from a public health a sociological standpoint a prevention to treatment and an enforcement standpoint in a more balanced way does make sense well if you talk about legalization according to your own testimony here in seattle you had a de facto decriminalization by making it the lowest priority no we made arrests for marijuana people were arrested actually several hundred people were arrested what we're talking about here is how do you use finite resources prosecutorial or police officers in order to have the most effect on keeping people safe and protecting their property adults who possess a small amount of marijuana who are not trafficking or dealing is not a high priority for those finite resources but what about the obama administration's  decision with respect to the d n a enforcement and medical marijuana clinics in places such as california you know the point a i would tell you that i have not had an opportunity to sit down with the attorney general eric holder i have only read in some press report what your position what was said on the decrease on the drug enforcement administration in we're seeing those laws the d a also i know have finite resources they go after the largest traffickers and the most violent traffickers i do not think that the medical marijuana industry fits right now in that standpoint it doesn't mean that they don't violate the law ok i'm going to  officer i want to i want to go that same article that the chairman referenced the wall street journal article from last week and i want to start with what they report and i understand it you know when you're reading from a news account you don't always get to get the truth so you get a chance to elaborate but active director of the fop james pascoe the largest law enforcement labor organization in the country said that while he holds you in high regard he said police officers are wary of some of the things that have been tri don't necessarily disagree with with bill's focus on treatment and demand reduction i don't want to see it at the expense of law enforcement people need to understand that when they violate the law there are consequences the article also points out that this is ministration it says it's likely to deal with drugs is a matter of public health rather than criminal justice alone again elaborate and elaborate in the context of this you know in light of what's going on on the mexico border what we're seeing the violence there associated with with  with drugs elaborate on this this kind of change in concept or change in philosophy the fee at least that is articulate here in based on your answer to the the chairman's kind of same line of question mr jordan  back and i'd say that it's not an either or proposition and i couldn't agree more with jim pascoe in the statement he made on behalf of the fraternal order of police you don't have to deemphasize or defund law enforcement in order to put further resources you say you agree with that with his statement but remember he said police officers are wary of the very thing we just described what in your position so you know you can see can agree with his statement when he says we're nervous about this this change in philosophy with a greater focus on quote treatment and not on putting the bad guys behind bars over many years of experience i would tell you that every time there was a change in emphasis law enforcement agencies who receive certain federal funds would be concerned there were a number of times in the previous administration that local law enforcement grants etc were either zeroed out or eliminated what i'd like to say is that this is about being balanced and about using the best tools and about leveraging those finite resources together in a smart way i'd also say in reading the background of in the last administration this issue was also treated as a public health issue as much as a criminal justice well let me ask them that this when you tell a public health the president's stated position on the needle exchange concept and in talk about that where you are personally on that issue in do it in light of if i think if i heard your testimony right you said you said overdose deaths surpass gun deaths surpass everything except if i if i caught it right traffic i mean car extra fees so talk about where you are on this needle exchange idea those overdose deaths are primarily due to pharmaceutical the abuse of pharmaceuticals in answer to the question on the on the needle exchanges it is seen as part of an overall public health issue in the two cities where i've been to large cities where i've been chief of police and we have had needle exchanges they were not a law enforcement problem and in fact the needle exchange in buffalo actually took calls from neighbors and would clean up any needles that were disposed of in appropriately and some other place about that have a dead i cited in my opening statement about where you see increased infection rates increase and hiv increase hepatitis where you have the link change programs mr jordan i'm actually not familiar with the data from vancouver british columbia but i would be happy to examine it in greater detail and respond back to you ok i've got thirty seconds let me ask one of thing here how does how does your office in just practical  question i don't know and should research how do you interface with homeland security specifically when we think about what's going on on the southern southern border of our country how do you at all if at all interface with homeland security i know that a meeting has been schedule very quickly with secretary napolitano one less so if i had a chance to speak with her she's looking forward to asking oh in the c p to be a part of this initiative and frankly we have that statutory role in authority to to do that and now that i'm in place i'll work with her but understand i guess i'm asking what's in the history of the the the organization you know had interfacing with with homeland security you know that can you can give it to me i don't know mr jordan ok well research i think  jim thank you the chair recognizes mr kennedy thank you welcome i appreciate the wall street journal article and what message you've sent at the outset of your tenure  as drugs are and i just want to take today's paper may not where and today my local newspaper in rhode island as an example of why what you said is so important front page man is killed officer shot within thirty minutes more on this case before you go to before shooting suspect possessed lengthy criminal record driving while impaired in ninety eight attempted breaking and ent i'm sure that had nothing to do with him trying to supply them self with drugs undergoing and then in two thousand and two undergo substance abuse counseling receiving stolen goods i'm sure that nothing to do with his addiction again two thousand and three violated in suspended sentence for drug drugs two thousand and four suspended sentence substance abuse counseling two thousand and five one years suspended sentence suspend substance abuse counseling to mastic  vandalism and assault so here here's one that's just one story that's the front page that's the second front page stories teen facing prison over boat  fatality teenager accused of striking and killing his friend on a boat in the barrington river in two thousand and seven took responsibility for his role in the death yesterday monday in superior court  hile boating the seventeen year old took responsibility for the death of patrick murphy after a day of voting at with other teams on the river july seventeenth two thousand and seven he faces over five years in prison then you turn to the local metro section of the rhode island plead deal likely in drunk driving case david hazard faces three felony  counts in connection with the april seventh accident route twelve scituate that killed foster one killed the mother of six page three  or has a history of driving violations including several in one year at the time of this driving by aleisha and he had been drinking and taking prescription medication  these are all written up as criminal clearly they are people who all have suffer from severe addictions i mean maybe the kid the teenager you know just had too many to many beers and was being a teenager out on the water but even that raises issues teen drinking but  sixty seven percent of the people that we rest in this country at the time of arrest test positive for one of five drugs what are we going to do you said comprehensive approach to bring this further to life in this country i mean this is the elephant in the middle of the room we're treating everybody who are committing these crimes as  hardened criminals when probably two thirds of them were after they've committed the crime don't remember what they did and our you know we've criminalized a public health problem in this country no one says that they don't have responsibility for their actions but can you talk to this issue for us and explain what it is that you think we can do so that these officers don't need to get shot and these young people don't need to be killed and  these mothers don't need to be killed in drunk driving accidents because we're treating this as a health problem and not as a criminal justice problem and maybe we could attack this from the front end rather than through the back end when it's too late and all the people are already killed maybe could tell us maybe through the health system how we could attack this the gentleman's time has expired but given the gravity of your question and mr  being this government function please answer these questions best you can congressman i know in talking to my colleagues there is frustrated with the system treatment on demand if someone gets  wants treatment there should be space there should be capacity for drug treatment if they come in for drug treatment in handcuffs there should be space for them also if they go to jail for their actions they should get in they have an addiction they should get treatment before they come back out on the street counseling intervention sessions had a lengthy record it seems to me if we if we were focused on you know the law enforcement side of things this guy may not have been on the street may not have been able to do the harm that he did to to the officer and that sort of proves the point i was trying to make in in the in  substance abuse counseling subspace counseling is doing evidence based and i right misters are and that means following what the physicians tell us works clearly what they're offering now isn't working because it's not following the evidence of what works and what doesn't first of all i think a number of times those fellows again how not island this again of the well the number of times this guy was in and out show that he wasn't even in long enough to benefit from counseling is the point mr kennedy because of the importance of this exchange we decided to enter play i think is beneficial to the committee and i appreciate indulgence of other members because that section took about twice the amount that we usually would but this committee has that latitude mr cummings you may proceed thank you very much i'm sure because he it's good to see you welcome to your position and i just just have a few words as i was sitting here listening to what has been stated and having been the ranking member of the drug  subcommittee i would ask that whatever you do you try to do what is most effective and efficient i'm tired of what has been going on with regard to the drug czar's office let me let me and let me explain that to you i think the way the drug czar's office is set up in the administration i think it makes it very difficult unless they've changed for you to do your job not just you anybody in that because you basically you had the mercy of everybody else as i understand it now you may have changed and so i think what happens is that you have things that you may want to do but you've got have the cooperation of the other folk and what i've found over the years is it seems as if the drug czar's office was not a stepchild but a distant cousin ann so i'm hoping that this administration and i'm a big supporter of president obama i worked very very hard for me one of those early supporters this thing of dealing with drugs is a very very serious and i think because drugs are considered in our society as a negative issue a lot of times it's sort of put on i don't want to say the back burner because sometimes it's put off the stove and so i guess what i'm trying to get to is i hope that you will look at some of the things that you've already talked about the media campaign let's determine whether that is truly i think how that is very important but and i think in most instances it is effective and efficient because it gives his state local and you and your feds a chance to work together and to learn from each other and again effectively use the limited resources that we have to address issues another thing we need to look at is the whole issue of effectiveness of treatment i do believe in my heart that and we've seen it from testimony coming committee there were a lot of folks that would open up these mom and pop shops to give people so called treatment when in fact they weren't being treated at all as a matter of fact they put them in a position where they lost faith in treatment itself because they were not properly treated so i hope you'll take a look at that and this whole thing a measuring you're right if we if we can't measure something there's a major problem and i don't know exactly what kind of tools you plan to use with regard to measurement but we've got to be able to see where we're going and see if we are achieving something i agree with regard to the war on drugs we need to get away from that word war these are our people and let me tell you i come from a city of baltimore and i hope and i'm inviting you to come to baltimore to to to to or was some very interesting sites i can tell you within five blocks of where i live i can go and show you an open air drug market where at about say seven o'clock in the morning maybe six thirty you've got hundreds of people literally selling drugs a city sadly where out of six hundred fifty thousand people you've got sixty five thousand addicts so and i'm but it's still a great city but the fact is that it becomes very much more difficult to govern much more difficult to keep it sustain it when you've got that drain and it is a drain because you're trying to keep people float and the money is like just going through a bucket hole and i'm saying that that's why i keep talking about effectiveness in baltimore when tom fraser was the police commissioner and many my other colleagues and i have visited my wife did some research in baltimore i understand that huge heroin addicted population and the difficulties i believe that our staffs are scheduling probably the third visit that i'll make is that drugs are as director of this office will be to baltimore and i look forward to seeing and hearing more from your perspective will just make sure i'm there i  mean i want to make sure i'm there i understand don't go on when i'm somewhere else all right i understand you let the chair direct follow up question will you go to baltimore and will you be there with mr c you i'm planning on going to baltimore and i will be with mr comey ok thank you ok the chair recognizes the gentle lady from california congresswoman watching and do you plan on funding these bills and in your budget for the two thousand and eleven fiscal year i can tell you that after after just eight days on the job i have not delved into the needle exchange funding issue i know it is not in this current budget but i can tell you that i plan on making it one of my priorities to learn a lot more about this issue and i will be more than happy to respond back as quickly as i can to you on that we'd appreciate it and the united states with two i think this is two million in prison has the highest rate of incarceration in the world as you know and over the past two decades increasing numbers of americans have been in prison for nonviolent acts driven by drug dependency the more although experts have found little statistical difference among racial groups we guarding actual drug use african americans account for thirty seven thousand thirty seven percent of those arrested on drug charges fifty nine percent of those convicted and seventy four percent of those sentenced to prison so how do you plan to implement a strategy that treats drug addiction as a public health issue rather than a purely criminal justice concern and what policies you plan to implement to alleviate the racial disparities associated it right now we are in the process of putting together several things the president's drug strategy which will be delivered in nine months is one that we're formulating we're also adding staff to the office of national drug control policy including a deputy director who's been nominated by the president whose expertise is in treatment not on the law enforcement side figuring out a way in which we can leverage all of our resources to treat this as a public health a social policy problem and a criminal justice problem working together would have great benefit not only to the prison population and reducing that inordinate those costs but also to improving the safety and security of our neighborhoods and our streets so i look forward to bringing these staffs on board working with congress listening to the suggestions from congress as we deliver and put together the president's  strategy on the day that you were confirmed as director of the consolidated national drug control budget for fiscal year two thousand was released and did you have any input all on an intel confirmed took absolutely no actions even though i was the nominee i know that in speaking with the president and speaking with the vice president my position in our office will have a great deal of input in putting together the strategy for the next go around it seems that the disparity between powder cocaine and crack cocaine choose minorities and we've had trouble in our courts amine we have a large percentage i'm from california of our young black males in prison more thin are in college and that statistic cannot continue so i would hope that as a director that you would look into that disparity and look into how we can support the programs walk in programs when i was in the senate and chairing the health committee year after year we would introduce feels that would allow stronger front treatment centers  people could walk into the conservative administration always said it would be too costly will it cost the lives and the careers of our young people so i hope you will look deeply into that as you begin your work share with me what the rationale was behind reducing the amount of money that went into the high intensity drug trafficking areas program do you have some data some evidence that contradicts what we've been hearing from law enforcement personnel that in fact it's useful and helpful i'm a strong supporter of hiders i served on the haida board and in seattle and believe as other members have stated that they are useful i don't have the particular details of the budget issue i know that the law enforcement agencies would always appreciate more assistance meeting with the haida directors five of whom i'll be talking with tomorrow in nashville is something that i will certainly explore further i mean i know it's one thing they always want resources but i sure what they don't want is a reduction if they can really put the money to good use i agree to a lot of appreciative examine that with them and then let us know what your results is that what you think that the forty million dollar reduction was appropriate or whether you revisit it after you met with i will thank you do you have a position on the so called gateway theory you know focusing resources on marijuana use for young people and i don't i've seen i've read a lot of research and a lot of literature and you cannot deny that people that are using  much stronger and drugs than marijuana often started with marijuana i think there is disagreement among the academics and the researchers on whether or not marijuana is in fact a gateway thank you you have a position also in on our can no i don't i've been in office a days i know thirty six years of law enforcement i have a lot to learn ok and i thought you might bump up against it in seattle  i've seen the use of of the preventives and i've seen the use of of bringing people out of the heroin overdoses by drug treatments but these are medical area that actually i'm being briefed on  almost immediately there are some people obviously who feel that it's success actually works counter because people are going to start relying on it being there which i think may be a bit of an odd way to look at things and that if you can save a life but look for tell you next time we have a i think the gentleman we're going to request of a number of people on the subcommittee we're going to go to another round of questions mister koskinen we'll go to the next panel after that now i n your position will prevention be a big item yes well given that preventing such substance abuse is the most cost method to reduce the costs and consequences of addiction could you explain why the president's budget proposal to reduce prevention funding by ten point six percent has occurred how does that square with your philosophy i would tell you that my ability to influence or be involved in this budget process was neal i know that prevention is an important part of the  hard on this next presentation and on the president's drug strategy and the prevention will be an important console would you recommend that they will not cut funds for prevention i actually don't know enough about the details of the two t thousand and ten budget as much as i have looked at tons of material already in just a few days are you familiar with the proposed elimination of state's grants portion of the safe and drug free schools and communities program i  am and do you agree that would need schools that do not receive a grant from the national program by the funding for even minimal drug and violence prevention and in schools mr chairman i would answer it this way that any of the programs that are not shown to be effective need to be looked at in either need to be reduced or eliminated but i do not have the details of how that was evaluated and i'd like how that was looked at given given that you're as you said many times eight days the job i think would be helpful for this committee to receive from you information on your position as to how prevention programs will manage with a reduction  and and whether or not most local education associations actually use the money that comes from the safe and drug free schools community program to leverage other resources and to develop consortia to pool their resources to provide optimally effective programs and services we need an analysis from you on that if you as you said just come into this recently it would be helpful to understand how how your positions will square with some of the budget realities finally the omen d c p is statutor required to set quantifiable goals for reducing illicit drug use and the consequences of illicit drug use in the united states but rarely is done the latter in particular the agency has never set quantifiable goals for reducing fatal drug overdoses or the spread of hiv aids even though rates are both relatively easy to calculate as director of owen d c p you have broad statutory latitude to set both national goals and performance measures will you set short and long term objectives for reducing the harms associated with both drugs and the war on drugs if so what performance measures will you focus on and finally will you consider adding additional measurement criteri performance goals related to drug overdose deaths hiv transmission rates and number of park hardcore addicts mr chairman the metrics and the measures project is already underway within owen d c p using a wide variety  of data and to establish the measures and to see how we're doing against our goals will be very important it can't be limited to just a few small measures and i agree with that president's comments about that that concept mr jordan i would tell you that the needle exchange issue the medical marijuana issue are and several others that have been mentioned here are all high priorities for me  i'm doing my very best to kind of get my arms and head around the agency right remodels four months six months what do you think and mr chairman if i may be right maybe maybe be appropriate abscissa chairman's call to have the director back  at some point he's talked about several times about eight days on the job which i understand you know what i was thinking the same thing and i'm going to let our staff work together with mr kerlikowske for a follow up meeting so we can do some benchmarks here and measure the progress experience what is it that that leads a person down this this trail is is i mean i have my theories and mine deal frankly with with the family life or lack of family life particularly a mother and father there to provide some of the guidance and discipline that that parents provide but in your thirty six years of that just give me what is it that pushes a young person into this into this terrible terrible lifestyle you know when i was pretty young in this business  think i had all the answers and now that i'm almost sixty i'm not sure i have even the right questions i would tell you that i think it is infinitely complex i think it begins with parents i think issues of prenatal care parent coaching early childhood programs head start neighborhoods communities religious faith based center are all important i also think they have the medical testimony about addiction as a disease remind me of a statement mark twain had a great line he said when i was ten my dad knew everything when i was twenty he didn't know much of anything now that i'm thirty i'm surprised how much he's learned into it sort of sort of works that way for all of us i think but if you had to say one thing when you say it's a lack of a mom and a dad there doing the doing this i parenting do i say family and parent issues neighborhood and community are of critical importance getting parents off to the right start and getting children off to the right start would make all of my former colleagues police chiefs and sheriffs jobs a heck of a lot easier to match one of the things look like care the southwest border counternarcotics strategy you mentioned in your testimony to to look at what would be the final draft of that policy i have not had the opportunity to talk with the vice president and the secretary of the apartment of homeland security about it but i know that earlier she had asked that owen d c p be much more heavily involved in in this issue and i plan on taking that up as quickly as i can ok ok to also submit a letter from my own state department of health we have a needle exchange program in rhode island that's reduced the transmission of hiv and without objection so w could go to the issue of getting your support for this aspart you know early screening brief intervention and treatment routine as diabetes screen or anything else it would be stigmatized and it would also help us and that prevention it and that the chairman said is the cheapest way for us to tackle these problems and if you started with if you had it with every doctor no matter what specialty they had and you reimbursed them for it and i mean white coat docs so they don't have to be mental health docs or substance abuse specialty doc doc got to be trained in this can you talk about how that would be really revolutionary in terms of advancing this cause in terms of public health and would you be able to join us in the effort to write to the medical boards put together these tests for medical schools and encourage them to put more questions on the tests these  the drug and alcohol training and questions and mental health so as to encourage medical schools to put their curricula more in line with the patients that their future physicians are going to see every patient they're going to see is going to have to have a cross section of being a whole person not only there for you know whatever specific malady they might be going to a specialist for but they're also going to have a complement of mental health and emotional issues as well and now their doctors are going to be also able to be trained to deal with that just maybe in a cursory public health way you know i've had two initial briefings on the program i am a supporter of the program the analogy would be that as we educated and informed physicians to deal with paid to ask patients particularly their female patients domestic violence and inform them and educate them about domestic violence that it can help to reduce that having the physicians also do the screening in the discussion with their patients were guarded less of what they come in to see that physician for about  diction and substance abuse would be a great step forward and i am supportive of that and as my colleague mr cummings mentioned there's all kinds of folks out there hanging their shingle saying they're drug treatment folks as my other colleague mr jordan said you know these treatment some of these treatment things just don't work here's evidence that this guy was an out different screen treatment things and he never got well are you for making sure we have some national standards on putting in place maybe jayco or and c q a standards for treatment facilities just like we have for every other health facility so that we can  implement what works and the treatment world congressman are not prepared to say to talk about whether or not i would support particular standards i would tell you that the treatment issues are very important to me that people looking at treatment as not just a twelve step program or a thirty day in patient right graham is being a measure of success there are a lot of people that take medications for high blood pressure for their entire lives they can strike out and for cholesterol and looking at treatment perhaps in a different way than just in and out and cured is probably not the best viewpoint w just say that airline pilots and doctors have ninety six percent success rate in drug treatment well they have to i mean obviously they're flying our planes and operating on us me we're going to hopefully do it in two thousand and eleven what are your recommendations for topics we should be addressing do you make enough to answer that i would tell you that in in looking at the the reauthorization i was surprised at the level of of detail and complexity and i think it reflected disappointment with congress's view of how well owen d c p process that we be given the tools at all when d c p to be more effective than we have been in the past just recently about a month ago as a matter of fact a group of us traveled to panama colombia brazil and mexico and it's so interesting in mexico the top law enforcement officials were telling us and you've heard just that that i think you said eighty or ninety percent of the guns and being a law enforcement person you can i'm sure sympathize empathize were coming out of the united states and these were the same guns that were being used to fight the police and the military with regard to drugs and i'm just trying to figure out how the president's in a very tough position you have a country who basically would basically says we want our guns you got the n r a with their position but at the same time you've got mexico which is saying united states you know largely responsible for our problems one you're consuming the drugs and to your guns are coming down us and so we've got a double whammy here may how do you how do you make your voice heard under those circumstances considering all the political right and is this is very real and what they said to us is that they believe i'm some of the high up i'm not talking about folks i'm some of the top people they told us that this mexican situation drug problem is already spilling over into the united states is going to get worse then we want to colombia president you're a very able who we met with literally begged us to make sure when we came back to the united states that we did everything in our power to make sure that there was maximum cooperation between the united states and colombia with regard to drugs and that was very personal to me because ninety percent of the drugs that come to baltimore come out of colombia so i'm trying to figure out how you're going to make your voice heard and you were selected for a reason and i don't on the background  sure there were some interviews and you had to say this is my plan this is what i hope to do and everything i've heard about you is no nonsense person you're very serious about what you do but i'm trying to figure out how  you see your way in addressing issues like that because this is a serious business and as the president of colombia said you know you it would be good to be able to stop it here because no matter what i mean if when it does it you're sure there's it has done and we're going to continue to do a lot of damage you know at this point in my career i didn't want to come to washington without being able to make a difference congressman i can tell you that all of my association with all of my colleagues across the country they want to be a part of this i was very heartened by the immediate steps secretary took to reduce guns flowing into mexico and also bulk cash flowing into mexico i've had several briefings just within the last week on mexico and i know that with our southwest border strategy about to be delivered that those issues have been added in will be addressed you know i've never been a shrinking violet on a lot of these tough issues and i don't plan on changing my stature in this administration i remember going to cuba and we met with fidel castro for five years ago and he said that you know if you could relax the restrictions he says we're ninety miles off your coast and we see the both coming through here and going up to the upper forty eight and he said if we could do interdiction to get there we could stop that traffic and i'm just wondering do you see a time and i would hope under your leadership because we've needed a drug czar that we join with the cubans in in addicting this  of course we have a big problem because that's where the money is and we're having problems in california over our border juana right over the border to los angeles of course are happening more in texas and new mexico but do you see a future where we can join with the cuban interdicting and we can i guess we have to go back to the present because i see the problem really at the top our president barack obama was there few weeks back and met with the president but we have to join both countries and some of the island nations if we're going to stop the flow but the need is so great for drugs here and i think a lot of the advertising that we see on television that we hear on radio contributes to that takes something to feel better when that's something wears off you still feel the way you did even worse before so what do you see for the future what would you lay out as a plan to join with other countries and have a united effort to stop the flow having spent some of my career in florida i was certainly familiar with the steps that were taken  one of the next trips that i'll be taking will go will be to key west to meet with the joint task force that works that entire caribbean and south america central america and the entire region so i'm looking forward to learning a lot about that i can tell you that it's probably premature for me to actually even engage in part right now about the relationship with cuba when it comes to drug interdiction but i can tell you that shortly after i visit with the commanders in key west and spend more time with the state department officials i'll know an awful lot more about that issue thank you very much again we want to thank you for your service we look forward to working with you the challenges are and be great and you have a major major job and i've often said that our children i don't living messages we send to a future we will never see and the question becomes will we send them to a future and so we know that up to the task we look forward to working with you closely because we again want you to be most effective any fission and thank you again thank you all very much already we'll call now the second panel gail christopher beach chair of the national academy of public administration panel on the office of national drug control policy john crondall the internationally recognized expert in  feel of drug policy president of congo associates alcee professor peter rooter professor in the school of public policy and the department of criminology and the university of maryland a hard to come by ok well of all for me it was thank you chairman coming ranking member jordan and distinguished members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting me here today i am honored to appear before you to discuss the national academy of public administration's two thousand and eight study and report entitled building the capacity to address the nation's drug problems it was my pleasure to chair the academy's o n d c p panel of six members with diverse backgrounds in feel such as public health social policy law enforcement public management budget and policy analysis the purpose of the congressionally mandated study was to provide insights into changes and improvements that could make zero in the c p more effective in the future underlying all of its recommendations is the panel's firm belief that o and the c p s adoption of a comprehensive approach to multi year strategic planning informed by the best available data will help the organization to accomplish its mission the panel's recommendations embody principles tools and processes that will maximize oh in these c p s effectiveness under any administration and any director the o and the c p challenge is to compile a comprehensive strategy that overlays the strategic plans of the numerous diverse agencies and ties the many pieces together in a common national program without conflicting with the individual agency strategic plans and budgets let me begin by acknowledging the very encouraging way in which the new o and d c p director with the support of acting director ed dura have has adopted a very energetic agenda to resolve many of the issues that the panel reported and that my written testimony describes his endorsement of a comprehensive multi year national drug control strategy the creation of a policy budget steering group reestablishment of the drug demand reduction interagency working group commitment to reaching out to stakeholders and the variety of efforts he has undertaken to reinvigorate the o and d c p workforce should have a dramatic and positive impact on zero and the c p s mission and its success i'll summarize the following selected recommendations which relate to the issues this subcommittee has a den of five for this hearing and would ask that the complete report be entered into the record oh and the c p should develop a comprehensive multi year national drug control strategy that is informed by high quality and diverse data and that covers all age groups illicit drugs and regions of the nation oh in the c p should bring to bear the full range of the nation's drug control expertise and build an internal culture that values critical inquiry open debate and pragmatic decision making all in the c p should develop a comprehensive national drug budget summary informed by that multi year strategy which incorporates total estimated federal expenditures for all supply reduction demand reduction and other federal drug control activities as well as state local and tribal affairs activities related to drug control further congress should modify o and the c p s oversight responsibilities relative to individual agency drug budgets so as to tie its review more closely to the annual o m b budget review process all in the c p should no longer require drug control agencies to provide performance reports that merely duplicate the gipper and part data that is gathered for o m b the panel believes that only c p s energies are better spent assisting agencies in improving the performance measures that they used to generate the data so that the measures align with the overall drug control strategy in addition oh and the c p should continue working on measures that assess the aggregate performance of drug control agencies in addressing the goals of the national strategy oh and the c p should work to create a more collaborative and consultative environment in order to increase its effectiveness in it relationships with congress the national drug control program agencies and stakeholders throughout the nation and we believe that that process has already begun with the new administration all in the c p should comply with statutory requirements provide information to congress in a more timely manner increase the ability of the drug control agencies to have meaningful input into the substance of the strategy use working coordinating committees to expand its outreach capabilities and institute a regular feedback mechanism with national drug control program agencies and stakeholders as owen d c p celebrates its twentieth year of existence the panel believes the organization has the opportunity to enhance its effectiveness and its credibility increased transparency streamline its organization simplify its work process seize bolster its workforce management and improve and leverage critical relationships seizing this opportunity can translate into increased organizational capacity to address the nation's drug challenges with positive implication for the nation's public health and certainly for the nation's future thank you and i would be happy to answer any related question thank you very much al good afternoon mr chairman and members of the committee and i want to thank thank you for this opportunity to present my views and on d c p as past performance key actions and recommendations to restore the integrity of that office in the fiscal year two thousand  national drug control budget have a formal statement which i request piece submitted for the record so late in the committee asked me to discuss on the c p s failures and its loss of status that occurred during the previous administration that could worry very well  ect on the c p s future effectiveness i will highlight just a few of the findings i have in my written statement the first one is that on d c p did not properly align the policy with the federal drug control budget to implement it in were exactly at odds with one another the strategy essentially had one demand reduction goal which was to reduce drug use among youth and adults but had a budget that emphasized supply reduction second there was no accounting for the performance of that strategy on d c p ignored the congressionally mandated requirement for a systems approach just to strategic planning which includes performance accountability that looks at the effectiveness of policy it instead relied on on b s part process that is program oriented rather than policy oriented number three zero and d c p jettisoned the statutorily required consultation process had a consultant and collaborative collaborated with external stakeholders perhaps it would not have completely missed the math and prescription drug drug epidemics for all and the c p failed to recognise a softening of youth attitudes about the dangers of drug use that began in two thousand and five this new trend signals the very real possibility that youth drug use one now increase cutting through fanchon funding by ten percent during the prior administrations tenure was wrong five zero in the c p jettison much of the drug budget even though congress required a comprehensive accounting of federal drug control resources billions of dollars in federal drug control spending were nord this made it impossible for all of us to be smarter about drug policy decision making so the national drug control strategy the systems approach is describing a great deal in my written statement and is very much part of the statutory authorization of on d c p number two on d c p must heavily invest in the married auction and other words prevention and treatment this means preparing immediately for the possible resurgence and use drug used and tackling addiction more demand reduction will also eventually mean less crime and violence for nations like mexico as we reduce our long term demand three with regard to the national academy of public administrations recommendations they did an outstanding job and i have a lot of and they have a lot of great rockland recommendations that i strongly support however there are two that i believe must be completely ignored apologies to dr christopher fleas first the congress and the ministration should not implement the recommendation to essentially turn the budget process over to o m b i worked annoying being in the one nine hundred eighty s and i remember what that process was like when we were in charge of the budget and when i went with there was no drug czar we just witnessed in the fiscal two thousand and ten budget what can go wrong when on be is in charge of the national drug control budget we now have a policy budget mismatch prevention is being cut at a time when it is most needed second the congress and the administration should not accept napa's recommendation to also turn performance accountability over to on the nappies recommendation shows that it failed to recognize the critical difference between policy excuse me between program versus policy or strategy performance evaluation on d c p must rebuild a state of the art performance accountability system along the lines of what it had place in the late one nine hundred ninety s i want to conclude by briefly talking about the new administration's f y two thousand and ten budget request it is my view that the new administration has gotten off on the wrong foot i disappointed by the pose drug budget for example the f y two thousand and ten drug budget continues cuts and prevention particular school based prevention and adds very little money for deferred substance abuse treatment this decision presumably by the office of management and budget strengthens my point that the napper recommendation to essentially turn budget decisions over to on b is wrong again let's not put on be in charge of the drug budget this concludes my comments thank you for the opportunity to much confusion results from treating all illegal drugs as a single policy target for example diverted pharmaceuticals present very different problems and policy opportunities than do cocaine and heroin in this are all testimony th mostly on our second issue which is incarceration related to cocaine and heroin i just briefly discuss foreign policy issues united states now has probably half a million individuals under lock and key for drug offenses on any given day including the substantial numbers who are in local jails for drug charges but that in context is about twenty two percent of the total prison population it's more than the countries of the european union with a four hundred million citizens i will put away for all criminal offenses even more to the point it's ten times as many as were imprisoned at the end of ronald reagan's administration when the problem drug problem is probably at its peak is well known purity adjusted price of cocaine and heroin have fallen steadily since nine hundred eighty one when systematic measurement began according to a recent analysis done for owen d c p the decline for cocaine continued through two thousand and seven even as the mexican market descend into chaos the availability measures based on population surveys have shown only modest declines for cocaine over that same period there probably has been a reduction in the number of regular users and cocaine and heroin over the last twenty years however that is more plausibly related simply to the working out of epidemics cycles of fashion and culture as indicated by the rapid aging of the cocaine and heroin dependent populations th to thirty one percent in two thousand and four one of the nation moved to a prosecution and sentencing regime that over the next few years reduced the number of drug prisoners on the a quarter million we believe that there's good analysis any case for cutting drug imprisonment should not pretend the prisons are bulging with first time nonviolent drug offenders most were involved in distributing drops if you got into prison on their first conviction that to work their way in the system mostly locks up people  cost a good deal of harm to society most will when released revert to drug use and crime they do not tug the heartstrings as innocent victims a repressive state nonetheless locking them up should be the last resort not an automated response let me turn briefly to foreign policies two countries supply the us with almost all its imported drugs colombia mexico afghanistan is the third country that matters not because its heroin reaches these sho because the industry heroin industry helps keep the taliban funded and also by financing warlords weakens the central government again the historical record and analysis both strongly suggest there's little that can be accomplished there just the flow of drugs to the transit country is likely to be hurt more than the original country benefits from a shift in the business and imo micro level spreading cocoa to grow growing to more parts of the andes to intensive eradication efforts causes substantial harm to the ecology the region is against production and trafficking the hurts the united states but we present arguments that such policies may cause more harm than good thank you very much thank you very much shoals to see you again sir it is always a pleasure to be in front of you my thoughts today are elementary i have a few simple a strongly held views to share and i find myself by the way in strong agreement with them most of what dr christopher and dr carnevale had to say my views are neither republican nor democrat they are what i'd like to think of as common sense they emerged from two decades of work in demand and supply advising federal state and local law enforcement as well as state national prevention education even in law enforcement groups they are distilled from a range of experiences pending time as a us circuit court clerk on the u s court of appeals in jails schoolhouses treatment facilities and places as diverse and regularly there colombia as colombia bolivia peru mexico on one hand thailand malaysia laos on the other have even had the good fortune of hunkering down in baghdad in kabul to talk about counter narcotics and the sad task also of helping parents who have lost kids to drugs refine their life's purpose professionally my views as you know sir better than are molded by five years up here on the hill during that time i ran the bipartisan drug policy working group co chaired by congressman zealous and wrangle speaker hastert a drug free america task force subcommittee that you were the ranking member for that elevated invented drug related and demand demand and supply reduction legislation including the one thousand nine hundred seven drugs are reauthorization act finally between two thousand and three and two thousand and five i was colin powell's assistant secretary handling our contacts issues seventy countries which brings me here today as nothing more than a commentator my short thoughts are these five number one to cast the nation's counter narcotics efforts over the past two decades as a waste of time as misguided as a failure is simply wrong we have collectively succeeded in many ways for periods of several years at a time during both republican and democratic administrations we have managed to change attitudes and behavior patterns the data is all there we have managed during these high attention times to educate young americans well to pull more addicted americans back from the abyss to reduce emergency room admissions for various illegal drugs to reduce certain categories of violent property violent and property crime tied to drug use and concretely return the rule of law and stability to formally drug ravaged countries and we can detail those if you want number two what we have not been able to do in any permanent way yet is to erase the recurring need for education treatment and deterrence born of keeping narcotics at front and center as  national security issue community family and personal responsibility issue we have not found a way yet to sustain national will and attention around a topic that few like to discuss either in their own lives the lives of their families or even schools and communities nevermind the nation we have yet to erase the reality and the enormous heartbreak of drug abuse and addiction drug related accidents drug related suicides the tragedy of sudden death by drugs driving which is quite common following educational performance tied to drug dependence drug related abuse of women and children by the way both  clinton and bush justice departments put eighty percent of overall abuse that is to say domestic abuse at the feet of substance abuse much of it is poly drug use we haven't been able to get away from the drug related violence in our towns cities and in the southwest border and yes drug funded terror groups which now number more than twenty five increasingly encroach on u s interests around the world and do include hezbollah hamas the p k k mutations of the k l a the fark a you see taliban h i g i m u n a growing number of terrorist cells in this hemisphere we do not even need to utter the word afghanistan portions of some of these groups are amply financed by our own drug abuse right here in the united states so despite successes we face a challenge as meaningful and compelling as any that the nation has wrestled with in decades number three america needs to focus on both sides of drug abuse and drug trial adequately and sustainably supporting both the health and law enforcement sides of our personal family community state and federal anti drug efforts to minimize the role of either law enforcement often dubbed the supply side since the aim is to deter and deter drug production and trafficking or the health related requirements including prevention treatment costs the so called demand side would in my view be a sudden turn for the worse moreover to minimize either deterrence and what it takes to deter drug related crime or health and prevention would be reckless number four drug legalization is a nonstarter period i have two studies that i would being put in the record one of which is a robust economic study on that topic one of my graduate degrees in economics the economics of drug abuse written large and small are against anything like legalization to gain new perspective just ask sweden or the non addicted people in any country where drug availability has risen more drugs means more addiction higher health care costs lower educational performance more property and personal crimes committed on drugs which are six times as likely as crimes committed to get drugs more domestic abuse and a degradation in a variety of related health indicators from inhibit inhibitions against unprotected sex to shared drug deals what is more the nature of addictive commodities and sliding price less to city of demand for drugs means that any legit legislation widening availability and use will accelerate emotional and physical damage to the very youth we hope in so many other ways to protect to that ad the persistence of a drug black market both empirically and because addiction means there will always be a black market until the day when drugs like heroin are given away one hundred percent pure in any quantity that somebody wants in short the case is a slam dunk against drug decriminalization and legalization or harm reduction and the irresponsibility of discussing it as a real option is tantamount to discussing some other way in which we might legally conspire to victimize and deceive our nation's young people so as to pay our way which actually it would not out of state or federal debt now there is no saving grace to promoting drug abuse full stop five hope springs eternal for ways to save and protect young lives to improve everything from education to deterrence this congress and this drugs are and president have a chance a real chance to show real leadership in the drug war which has been lacking whether you prefer to talk about anti violence or  or the pro health care end of the spectrum the spectrum like any criminal issue with health consequences from rape and maiming maiming to assault and intentional infliction of emotional distress is a continuous unbroken intercalated circle trying to fix the consequences residing on one side of the circle without deterring the behavior and the means that create the opportunity and promote the other side the ill health consequences on the other side is to miss the point both sides of this battle need our attention which is honest yes are you but i will we must minimize the level of inattention that has been given to this maximize the attention and remember that you know nonpartisan way quite frankly we are due for some real leadership on this issue thank you for the question since the first priority for all in the c p is to understand the scope and nature of the drug problem it first must have competent statisticians who are equipped to utilize the wealth of survey data that is available to gain a better understanding of the many facets of the drug problem and certainly the idea of a new deputy that brings a medical and preventive background speaks to the skill deficit in a very effective and creative way the office also requires competent economists who are able to conduct in depth analysis of the global drug market understanding markets generally is one thing but understanding a complex global elicit market with limited market indicators is another more difficult assignment much data is collected about the listed drug market demand but less is known about market supply this is an area where owen d c p can truly provide value that you added as a coordinator of the national drug control program the academy report also focused in on the need for more diversity of the agency staff given the disproportionate impact of these issues in diverse minority communities down to kind of all of the one of the things that that i'm concerned about is the whole drug court situation i think the court so very effective and it seems to me they present a budget calls for fifty nine million dollars a new problem solving it says quote problem solving question issue and apparently what that means is that there's just the discretionary funds and then the course have to compete for those funds are you familiar and so it becomes you know any of approach in baltimore and we have found them to probably i mean this is basically talking to judges which i mean and judges are not they have no reason exaggerate but they claim that is one of the best tools that they have and some just wondering what you all is opinion of you know putting money out there so that these drug courts that are already scraping for money trying them find money wherever they can as a matter fact one of our courts in baltimore basically has had to go to some private foundations and whatever trying to put together the pieces for something that is been very effective and i just wondered what your opinion on that might be we say mr congressman i am one hundred percent for it and i will just tell you as you as you know probably as well as anyone over the last eight years the burn jag grant money was dramatically cut from what it is high of one point three  the end of the clinton years and it's it's a travesty that we have lost that emphasis some of the money actually goes to that purpose just as just as it's vital to restore the safe and drug free schools money could i just add one of the problems with the drug  is that the eligibility criteria for defendants so strict that in fact it doesn't make a large difference in the great body of criminal justice decision in fact if you have if you are an which is not actually i think on the agenda what i can tell you in baltimore they would disagree with you mr ritter because again i trust my judges and they have begged for drug court my they said they did that they'd almost rather have drug court money than almost anything else because they see that it works so you have an opinion on that dr christopher i do the drug court process we at the at the kellogg foundation which is another hat that i wear are actually funding drug courts in michigan because we find them to be extremely effective particularly when you talk about the impact on child welfare and family dissolution so many of the cases that come into the system of which children are being removed has of course to do with various forms of substance abuse so being able to use this type of approach has proven to be extremely effective thank you our senior citizens to coming up by may comment on that as well i mean but the drug corps program i think has been very effective in targeting a certain population and needs to be expanded it hasn't really seen much growth in the past eight years and i think getting we're all pleased to see the budget request that came in one element of the drug court program that i think is very important that's often overlooked is the drug court institute that s currently in place it's only funded i think at around a million dollars but it puts information on best practices that is disseminated dog drug courts nationwide and as we expand the number of drug courts i think it's also very important to congress help this institute grow with it so it can help all these drug courts be more effective and get a little bit more mileage for the money that they are getting assets around here three minutes your number four point you were you were really strong on talking about why we should not have any decriminalization of drug use and you made just you know these research it's pretty clear when you have more availability and more use you get a percentage increase in addiction over years that becomes an increasing problem because right more and more sick people give me a common stand on needle exchange and exchange program needle exchange programs for which there is a lot of divided research basically don't do what they're credited for doing the reason for that is that the exchange actually is a bit of a fiction it's really a needle giveaway program because addicts and you can talk to the addicts themselves tend to get themselves in a position where they want the drug and so they want it heroin happens to be a very addictive drug other intervene as drugs are usually high potency and the result is that they don't go back in exchange the needle so there is more and more needles out there never mind the moral message you're sending which is somehow drug worked out my background is i have a graduate degree in both economics and in law i litigated i worked in the reagan and bush white house is i then became a litigator worked writing a bunch of these things and then taught at harvard for a short period of time between terrorists and drug use i think you named every every terrorist group that i've ever heard of i believe actually there are many more that i didn't name the ones that i've heard of at least talk talk about that link and the impact interdiction efforts in dealing with with that link between drug use and there is activity there is another elephant in the room and that other elephant in the room is the very tight relationship that exists worldwide and in the united states talk with some of the hide is about him going investigations into h in the united states talk to the height is they'll tell you there is a very clear link between drug funding and the growth of terrorist organizations of all kinds and criminal larger criminal international criminal organizations the terrorist organizations believe it or not that we worry most about and i won't detail them although hezbollah happens to be the largest terrorist organization in the world they are increasingly dependent on drug revenue and what you find is and this is your job as a congressman not mine is that there is a great stovepiping which creates the elephant in the room and nobody wants to talk about the drug terror nexus the great stovepiping is that the god bless them for everything they do deals with just drugs and cia and others in the intelligence community tend to focus their resources on c t in fact they have bled dry the c and c component of cia in order to do c t work nobody wants to talk about the other part of this and the reality is that in the quiet of the night while we do not have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that every organization is getting the majority of its funding from drugs we have more probable than not and if we wait for proof beyond reasonable doubt we'll be looking down the barrel of another nine eleven charles when there is and if you were here for the early testimony with the director asking about you know how he interface with homeland security in trying to address this very point blank there is a statutory provision which was put in by mr souter and mr cummings that allows him to interface directly with the h s through the sea any office it has essentially been a office and what you have now is some hope and i'll tell you why in addition to and you're hearing this from a republican i'm not only hopeful because they've put back a lot of the money on law enforcement they've put back a lot of the money for critical things we need but you've got rand beers who is an all time drug warrior guy that ran i n l a two billion dollars beer that i ran for powell he ran it before me and that that that person rand beers is now i think the number two or number three at the h s he cares but this ability i mean this is something it's so important do you have any theory as to how it is that during the united states presence in afghanistan the production of opium shot up eighty ninety percent i have an area yes sir you have any theory about that and i have more than theory i have the facts tell me how did that happen there were a number of people like armitage and colin powell who argued very strongly that counternarcotics should be a piece of the mission that ultimately the better part of the funding for the taliban and even remnants of al qaeda and i am you and he they were active in afghanistan and surrounding areas that the better fart part of the fuel was all drug money the basic argument was that if you want to stop a combustion engine you don't keep open cowpoke in your fingers into it trying to catch individual terrorists which is what we were doing you do that in combination with cutting off the fuel for the engine and what we did not do what we never implemented because we were not allowed to fully implement was a counter narcotics strategy when i wrote thirteen different counter narcotic strategies at the behest of the n s c every single one of them got a nice read and that was where it ended and you're talking about specifically with respect to afghanistan i am talking about specifically with respect to this and this subcommittee would be happy to read those were well i'll tell you the better part of that strategy still sits on the table i mean i think that the american people are sending their sons and daughters who have gannett stand and who have we've lost quite a few men and women  and we have seen the taliban in resurgence for quite a while and you've testified that these organizations are being filled with the help of drug money and we've seen that there's an eighty ninety percent increase in  production of course then we're talking about an increase in heroin sales and so if if there is that link there that's something that we ought to x explore especially since you said that a critical part of the strategy was left out now mr government is actually is actually being supported by the increase opium production the effort to eradicate crops in the city is an action against peasant farmers in form and it is that tension which is at the heart of the fight between the state department and defense department and mr charles has as a view about that and i'll disagree with that but that is the tension and there isn't any way that sitting out here we can solve it but it's not clear that if we pushed let me just say one more thing one things we can do is push production out of the areas which we control and areas the taliban the taliban how do you explain that with the u s military having such a large presence in afghanistan that during the same period of time we see such a rapid increase in opium two thousand and one so most until two thousand and five it was just back to where it was before the estimates for two thousand and six and two thousand and seven which a very large increase is quite implausible there's no evidence in terms of the decline in prices in afghanistan or increased availability in the rest of the world that there has in fact been a very large increase so i'm quite skeptical nonetheless your question probably reasonable even without those and it is clear that there is that the crop is grown openly through much of the much of the country it gets moved around there have been times with problems is it being cleaned up and moved elsewhere and that is indeed one of our policies can do we can move it around we do not have the  thirty thousand and sixty one thousand and three two hundred fourteen thousand and four and more than that you know five yes they are higher now in zero six and zero seven your numbers are exactly right they supply more than ninety percent of the world market and are they accurate well both commercial and closed satellite photography seem to suggest they're highly accurate number one number two there is a strategy the strategy is a combined strategy it is a strategy that has worked in other countries around the world for thirty years and it involves putting alternative development hand in glove with eradication that is effective and mr cummings point about effectiveness is so valuable getting at it one by one region by region and by the way the crop does not move around dramatically to the large to a large effect a large extent the north of afghanistan has never been a big poppy growing areas except for parts of bought action but in the in the provinces that are most heavily populated now by the taliban drugs are the primary driver of income for that group and you know the saddest part about this is that this is an utterly winnable effort if we would sit down look again at the strategies that were put forward by colin powell by our retirement age by me in prior administration that were essentially sidelined because they were too it was here's the here's a real bottom line when and i'm going to really step on some toes here when the field commander who happens to now be the ambassador was in charge over there they took view they took the view that this was highly inconvenient that essentially handle what was handling addressing the drug issue was highly inconvenient you could put it down there in a social category like hepatitis and deal with it later the problem is anybody who knows counter narcotics anybody at this table most of the people in this room know that it is an enormous accelerant of instability when it's allowed to go you know just roughshod over society and so what what transpired was every every military commander i spent ten years in the military every military commander has a two year tour give or take and they know that it can auger in after they leave so it was too hard a problem to address at that time and at the end of the day we are now paying for inactivity we are now paying the price for not having tackled at the front end and i i testified in front of this committee five years ago saying identical things to what i'm saying now and i'd get my knuckles rapped when i went back you know but the bottom line is i always told the truth and i'm telling you the truth now when i want but we're not doing it i want to say to mr charles and mr roeder that this paradox of the increased u presence in afghanistan and sharply increasing production of opium and therefore heroin where afghanistan according to figures by our own government is creating a larger and larger market share towns about looking at this again and get some resources and so we can have a more printed penetrating analysis as i've been following this iraq war to me it's  been the afghanistan war it's it's been mystified how we could see such a butter increase at the end of the day just thank you sir charles you just explained one possibility and i appreciate the mitigating circumstances that mr roeder brings up control agencies as an honest broker of drug use friends and other data reflecting success and failures of drug control policy for example and a p a is critical of all in the c p s focus on marijuana as a gateway drug associated early marijuana use with addiction to other drugs later in life since there is data showing that there are other gateway drugs that are more social with leading young people to greater drug use than marijuana if drug prevention policy will be based on science should we be focusing more on teen use of alcohol tobacco and how can only d c p present data in a more neutral and legitimate manner thank you for the question mr chairman of the napa report does emphasise the importance of a more collaborative and outreach focused strategy and we believe that the current director has made  proactive steps in addressing that particular issue and certainly the limited focus on marijuana doesn't negate or not pay enough attention to the the world of alcohol and tobacco for that matter  leading young people to more extensive use of other drugs so we definitely encourage a broader scientific and evidence based to inform the overall policy and we encourage a comprehensive strategy that looks at all of the issues that  before the committee today thank you mr carnevale can you explain your proposal for a modified budget certification process and how you think the budget should be structured to ensure that congress and the public are aware of all drug policy spending yes this is one area mr chairman i think is very critical of the budget certification is a tool that the office of national drug control policy has to help it shape by just that the federal its federal agency partners have put together during the year before on b c s it surf occasion was reviewed by the general accounting office back in one thousand nine hundred nine and they looked at a decade's worth of effort to with respect to the certification process and found that the tool was highly effective even though we had had only in a quote decertified about ten agencies over the entire ten year period if certification is used correctly then what you do is put peer pressure in a sense real pressure because you're speaking from the white house on your partner a niche agencies to in fact to do with what the president wants which is to support the president's national drug control strategy so in terms of the process there's two things i'd like to suggest one is under current law certification the tool itself has been badly damaged i think every time when d c p certifies a budget it now has to report to congress and so what that results in is a fear to use the tool itself because it can the congress can disagree with oh in the c p as it's trying to manage the budget process but setting that aside i think in terms of improving the process we've there's been a dramatic change correctly we're finds in how we account for drug control spending on d c p and of the previous administration threw out about thirty agencies i don't have the exact number out of the drug budget and and so these agencies are no longer being reviewed for purposes of service certification i think you know i think one of the recommendations that i have is that we bring these agencies back into the comprehensive accounting that nappa talked about in its report that's number two but what certification i have sort of a lengthy explanation of my testimony but i can now envision a two tier process where a handful of agencies get certified and these agencies would be the ones that have a very active role in making policy  work for example thinking about treatment thinking about prevention prosecution investigations these are areas where you can receive and put resources in and have an immediate effect when you start thinking about the bureau of prisons where which houses  well over fifty percent of its incarcerated population is in there for drug related reasons we no longer score them or treat their budgets as drug related but in a policy sense i would argue that part of that makes sense in the second tier you wouldn't decertify or certify that budget because the bureau of prisons can't actively through policy decide one day it's going to increase its prison population to eighty percent drug related and so we've proposed a two tier approach to the survey cation process in our in our testimony here in my testimony to i think you know your testimony states that while drug use among among the youth has been on a general decline since one thousand nine hundred six data shows softening attitudes related to disapprove of drug use which could result in the beginning of an upward trend you also cite and uptick in the eighth and twelfth grade use of illicit drugs from two thousand and seven two thousand and eight given this data and the general decline of resources allocated to prevention in the last eight years isn't the proposal to eliminate the state's grants portion of the safe and drug free schools and communities program shortsighted are you concerned that if drug use rates rise without this program that we know safety net in place to deal with and should we be putting more not less resources in to prevent programs my answer the short sighted part of the question is yes it's i think it's highly it is shortsighted i'm very concerned i looked at these department of education excuse me the office of management and budget to read recommendation couldn't as a department of education report about the program and it doesn't say the program doesn't work the state grants portion of the process state portion of the program but it what it does say is that the program has been badly mismanaged and it has been for the past decade and i'm greatly concerned that on be in this case is using that information to cut a program simply because it's been mismanaged  rather see i think at this point given what we're seeing with attitudes changing these attitudes have to do with a softening of attitudes with respect to the disapproval rates around drug abuse the dangers of drug abuse we're seeing upticks now they're not if the issue is one of mismanagement which i think is a strong tradition at the department of education excuse me department of education but it has been one has cut across many administrations that i think it's time that we take the funding for this program and have a transfer of going to c p and let things have changed but at the time i would say it's not mismanagement so much as just a poorly structured program is essentially a formula grant program which imposes very few obligations on the recipient schools that's built into the structure all that and i don't think any better management is going to change that aspect of it you would have to make a very funny little change in the war and putting in the hands of going to see would make it a wfully different programs but in the form that it is now a century of formula grant there is nothing he is suggesting this is an effective way of funding affective prevention programs you can rewrite the law but there's not a who will let me ask you this you conducted a rand study in two thousand and one and concluded that the state's grants portion of the s d f c program was profoundly flawed have you conducted any additional studies on the program since the passage of h r one which sought to legislatively correct some of the problems with state grants portion of the c f c program and and your report as you know is cited in the two thousand and ten budget is just the cation for eliminating the program is it if clickable the state grants portion of the s t s c program as it's currently legislated i have not followed this program for all this so i have no absolute cannot answer that question if they make fundamental change that what if if fundamental changes that they made on i simply don't know now i can answer your question well we'd like to hear from you about those fundamental changes which of course would change your level of analysis so you know just to say there's fundamental changes begs a lot more questions if you could the committee's going to send you a note that would give you a chance elaborate on that i want to thank all of you for being here and is there is anyone on the staff here from the office of national drug policy good i'm glad that you're here so you could take notes back and discuss some of the testimony and so i want to thank  director kerlikowske and his staff for being present as well as the other witnesses who are here we want to continue to engage you and your expertise on these matters as we move to craft a sensible national drug policy this is the domestic policy subcommittee i'm dennis kucinich of ohio chairman we are subcommittee of oversight and government reform today's hearing has concerned the office of national drug control policy and fiscal year two thousand and ten national drug control budget and the policy priorities of the national drug control policy under the new administration our committee will maintain and subcommittee will maintain an ongoing jurisdiction in this matter and we appreciate all of you participating and will be talking again thank you very much this meeting 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