i've been doing this for a while but never back to back well as we don't write i must confess for many years i've made it my habit to not look at any notes while i dress the court and i have to say getting ready for this one i said i'm just going to read it so i apologize right that's right you said earlier this is an entirely different disclose it was the use of a quote relatively unknown uniform profile and again we contend that there is not such relevant evidence as a reasonable mind my do except as adequate to support a conclusion when the evidence is considered as a whole be drawn from this claiming which one the uniform profile is the final completed profile not an intermediate profile to me the reason for the nine uniform does not teach or suggest a non uniform profile at the end of the prophet process the figure clearly shows that the film thickness age is the zero at all radio positions i mean all the film has been removed and there's al qaeda states about figure six quo for this particular example the film will be completely cleared after of either fixed figure two or figure six for any purpose and certainly not for defining at trick data accordingly there is no substantial evidence you parted ways with the board so i still can you just tell me in english what al qaida or outlier talks about uniform but then it also includes not a uniform profile and saw the fight continues a decade decade to try to get that uniform program he mentions non uniform profile only in the context of you don't want man uniform you want a uniform he has a figure too that it is understood plainly shows the creation of a relatively uniform training profile you just read about what he shows who figure two is as he explains explicitly is a snapshot of his etching process so his etching process goes to the end in the end there is prior art you are looking at the question of what is this quote aren't you well i suspect there's tons of prior art that show non uniform profiles because that happens in the in the industry i mean if you're pushing for uniform logically follows that there's going to be a lot of non you know forms but what this pattern is about is the liberal really getting a non uniform profile so that you can get different at traits ultimately get what you want and elkhart doesn't show that and he doesn't do anything with his figure t because as i say there's just during the process it looked like that at one point and at the end it ends up to be uniform so neither figure to north figures should sects shows a non uniform profile no uniform profile that evidence includes of course figure two itself which dr graves and expert in chemical engineering testified before the board that the figure two shows a taper figure six shows so it's immediately it has figure six colon and then it goes from there and twice refers in that description of figure six but be that as it may with respect to figure six it is clearly showing non uniform x profiles as a function of time the edging again at the edge perfectly edge of the way for is much higher than it is towards the middle of the way for which is by definition non uniform here the argument seems to be that this evidence of a non uniform edge profile has to be at the end of some etching process beyond being new that argument finds no support in the claim language the claim language simply says that you you perform at trim and then you have a non uniform profile as a result of that entry it doesn't say how long it has to go it doesn't say that some process of fabrication has to be completed what's more i would you're creating this profile you actually stop i'm sorry can you tell me again what column yes it's called m five and i'll refer the court to lines twenty two to twenty three and here in this part of the patent and patent and we don't even know this whether al process was complete or partial but even for the sake of argument if that's the case the patent seems to disclose that very same technique the next argument that i heard coun make was that al cairo does not show essentially the use of this non uniform that profile with respect to the use of that for trade data which is the next part of that claim but as the board found and as was submitted in the petition to the p tab the combinations here were to combine alkali or on the one hand with cal and also glue ski on the other hand the argument below as embraced by the board was that you would take this art and these teachings in combination the board found a strong motivation to combine these references together and to take those teachings in tandem and to then  use that empirical evidence from cow and lucy and combine it with al qaeda to achieve the claimed invention we submit that there was no ever below and substantial evidence supported the board's decisions i'd be happy to answer questions on other aspects that were raised in the paper of if the court has any questions thank you thank you perhaps i missed heard counsel but i thought he said that in al kyra figure two is the filed profile as absolutely one hundred percent wrong with regard to figure and he says that it's not stripping that perhaps is my fault for using the word stripping instead of i think those are both the same thing the real point about bigger sex is they are saying it shows a nine uniform profile and if you look at the figure it shows that all of the etchings end up to be the same place i easy arrow which means that they have stripped away all of the resist or the resist misunderstand you earlier say that your hips ripping is not the same thing at chain are you know i didn't say anything like that and if i did i misspoke what i was saying was that the strip rate or the trait does change in figure six but the important thing is what you end up with at the end and that is not uniform with regard to the end profile again i would say that our car would not teach the person skilled in the art anything and he certainly doesn't show having a nine uniform profile certain places if you continue to etch you'll go into that the substrate below that and that's bad so that's all he was talking about the answer is talking about a very minor thing but what he's trying to do and it's clear from figure one a in the patent he wants to have different different at sheen so that you end up with that the distance from the substrate to the top of the x material is different across the whole thing so we can get different data by using the non uniform profile and as i said before if you had a uniform profile you get all the same data which wouldn't be helpful so what he's doing is he's getting all this different data and then moving on from there