good evening everyone welcome to this meeting of the whole city council we welcome you to chambers or had home on television or watching on an electronic device somewhere around the world let's make sure we have sufficient bodies here to conduct business tonight please call the rol first of all will be led to an invitation by our colleague from the first ward council member mike truly immediately thereafter we will have the pledge of allegiance to our flag if you are in chambers in would kindly join us in these items we would appreciate it thank you heavenly father thank you for the wonderful day that you have given us today the beautiful sunshine the warm temps as we know these days are limited for this year with the new season of fall just around the corner we pray that our city and its residents we pray for our city and the residents you have given us much to be thankful for we pray that you be with all the city employees keeping them safe in their daily duties we pray especially for those that keep us safe both near enough to far watch over them extra clearly lord now we pray that you'd be with us this evening  deliberations may we be mindful and patient of all opinions even if they don't represent a reflect ours thank you lord amen thank you mike there are copies of the agenda for this evening's meeting located in the rack in the rear of the room i would note that counsel has elected to remove item  fourteen he five point four dealing with the outdoor discovery center so that one will not be on the agenda this evening if you have an electronic device you can follow along with the agenda as well as all the background material couple has reviewed in preparations for this meeting by going to the city's website city of holland dot com go to the calendar page today's date you'll find everything there and again on line you can find not only a copy of the agenda but all of the supporting material that council has reviewed in preparation fourth this evening's meeting as you look at the agenda you'll note there are a variety of items on it that are marked with an asterix these are consent items meaning that we deem them to be relatively routine or have been previously discussed by counsel and the intention at this point is to handle all of these items collectively with one motion and one vote because of that fact now what we will first do before we act on the consent agenda i will ask the deputy city clerk to read for us those items and then i'll offer some further instruction as to how you can amend the consent agenda if you would so like and if you would please read for us at the moment what is presently on consent item five to approve the minutes of the august twenty seventh study session september third regular session and september tenth two thousand and fourteen study session minutes as presented item eleven a to accept and file executed oaths of office item eleven b to accept for the abandonment of gas mains and services within the energy park to facilitate demolition and that the mayor and deputy clerk sign and record said agreement without a county register of deeds item fourteen a to to accept a grant of utility easement with flat lands for to allow the installation of underground fiber optic cable located at two hundred north franklin street and that the mayor and deputy clerk sign and record such documents with the what county register of deeds assistant for the conserve conservation program at a median wage of forty thousand five hundred dollars as previously approved in the fiscal year two thousand and fifteen board of public works budget item fourteen eighty four to approve a contract with turbo care inc also known as the thoughts energy group for the unit three steam turbine the repairs in the amount of seventy five thousand six hundred twenty one dollars with a contingency in the mt of sixty thousand dollars with a not to exceed amount of one hundred thirty five thousand six hundred twenty one dollars for this unbudgeted project and that the mayor and deputy clerk sign this contract pending approval as to form from the holland board of public works attorney item fourteen a five to approve a facility encroachments agreement with c s x for the installation of overhead fiber optic at twenty six than lincoln avenue and that the mayor and deputy clerk sign this contract pending approval s to form from the attorney in place on first reading of ordinance a water ordinance amendment to section thirty seven dash thirty three that provides for the protection of landlords noticeably in security deposit with final reading to be scheduled on october one two thousand and fourte ny to approve a purchase order for professional services with g m b for the design of connecting of the existing snow melt system to the new power plant in the total amount of thirty eight thousand two hundred eighty dollars item fourteen a ten to approve an engineering services agreement with tetra tech in the amount not to exceed two hundred seventy six thousand dollars with a ten percent contingency of twenty seven thousand six hundred dollars for the demolition demolition and rebuild holland wyoming interconnect  and meter station pending approval as to form by the attorney item fourteen the one to refer claims filed against the city to the city's insurance carrier in city attorney for consideration item fourteen d two to prove an annual amendments to section fourteen dash four point fourteen dwelling unit accurate and section fourteen dash four point three seven in your basic housing permit with a final reading scheduled on october one two thousand and fourteen i fortini one point two to approve the contract with land use usa and logics consulting in the not to exceed amount of twenty one thousand dollars for housing per get market analysis and to transfer fronts from the general fund and downtown development authority budget to the great fun subject approval us to form by the city attorney item fourteen eed two point one two approve the city's portion of that engineering services with prepared i am designing for the eighth street utility improvement project item fourteen ea three point one to approve a sixteen month lease with new york post for a new postage meter and scale at a cost of eight thousand three hundred eighty one dollars and forty cents to be funded by the postage on item fourteen e's three point two two approve the a bid submitted by hofmann electric in the amount of fifteen thousand two hundred dollars for the lighting upgrade in the council chambers this to be funded from the ca t v fund with an amendment to the budget budget of an additional two hundred dollars item fort four point one two accept the justice assistance grant fund in the amount of eleven thousand one hundred ninety seven dollars for the purchase of police equipment and authorize staff to proceed with requirements as noted i don't fortini five point two to approve new revokable license agreement with lake street a c for protecting signs located at new holland brewery at seventy two east eighth street and item fourteen five point three two adopt a resolution schedule in a public hearing for the october  meeting for the hiawatha drive final assessment role and to authorize the deputy clerk to send out required notices all right thank you and would anyone in the audience well as i said a moment ago the intention is to handle all of these items with one motion and one vote however we will give members of the audience an opportunity to remove an item from the consent agenda if you so choose all we would ask is you step forward to the microphone and if possible identify by number what it is or by subject that's fine too and you can do so at this time circle eleven thirty three myrtle court just two or two items on here i think one was just a report maybe that's not my primary concern but that was under fourteen he won started sections one and two under there dealing with the dwelling unit occupancy at section fourteen four point three seven but then there was also under nineteen subsections b and c which also dealt with the same provisions i think that members of council remove those will but who will take them off thank you her cap gentlemen especially if you wouldn't mind removing those while in chambers that would be greatly appreciated but then takes us to item eight a the first of a few or a special or the day we have a public hearing of necessity regarding the downtown parking operations and maintenance assessments we turn to our downtown manager to introduce this item for us and she will get comfortable at the microphone here because there's more than a few of these to deal with this yet thank you good evening plus times i'm vertically challenged as i like to put it so i did just hear well good evening counsel before you this evening is the recommendation to adopt a resolution of necessity for the annual downtown parking operation and maintenance assessment the downtown parking operations and maintenance assessment district includes properties within four hundred feet of a public parking lot within the downtown and supports things like signage plowing  improvements rental of certain lots to be used for the public parking system in the downtown the parking assessment policy is based upon a building square footage there is a percentage that is reduced for certain types of uses for instance nonprofits are at a sixty percent or excuse me a fifty percent reduction we also have different rates applied for those that have vacant or  storage as well there is also a credit that's applied to those that are actually supplying private property or private parking spaces rather into the system as well so there is a credit that's applied to those that are contributing in that manner and then residents are also not included in this particular assessment as they are part of a sucker it downtown residential part overnight parking permit system the recommended amount assessed is for a three percent increase over the previous year the assessment for fiscal year two thousand and fifteen begins with a base first floor square footage rate of point three three five in the total susman is one hundred ninety three thousand dollars one hundred ninety three thousand eight hundred forty five dollars and ninety seven cents and is applied to one hundred forty seven properties and certainly ask answer any questions of counsel as well thank you to any questions for dana seeing on this is the time and place a public hearing on this particular matter if you want to address counsel on this item we ask that you step forward to the microphone so all in chambers and at home can hear what you have council rules permit i'm sorry you are rules require that you state your name and residential address for the record and you have up to five minutes to address the council and the public hearing on this item is open least i just want to thank all the merchants for helping to pay for snow melt and parking and all the many programs that thursday night programs and all the other ones are involved in it and it's a cost of doing business in harlem  and every weekend we should try the support of her community her downtown and other places just a really big thank you for all of you who are involved in those particular activities thank you so much it is our annual reminder that thank you the principal shopping district was created by city ordinance in one thousand nine hundred ninety eight to help supplement the downtown revitalization efforts of the downtown development authority and was intended to provide a cohesive on consistent  offer for marketing and promoting the downtown and high olding effect of exciting events within the downtown that would make downtown helena stand out destination some examples of the types of activities that are undertaken through th t include as mentioned i'm a moment ago the street performer series on thursday nights during the summer live manikin night which is actually this friday we also have groove walk coming up the p s t hose a vent calendars our downtown website social media over sixteen special events and activities throughout the year and many many more activities through the p s t the p s t assessment past policy is based on building square footage  with assessment rates attached to those that are on the first floor upper floors and additional floors excuse me and includes a different rate for core and for edge properties as outlined in your council report for the fiscal year two thousand and fifteen assessments will generate one hundred seventy eight thousand nine hundred ninety three dollars and twenty eight cents and includes one hundred seventy six properties thank you many questions for doing the wise this is the time of the place for the public hearing on this particular item if you care to address council out of invite you forward to the microphone the public hearing is open and seeing no one will close the public hearing what is the pleasure of goals we moved by peter's work supported by workman any discussion please call or peter operation assessment thing yes the operations maintenance operation the maintenance assessment excuse me is levied against properties receive direct benefit for the snow melt system operations  most are along a street with some additional areas as well both on street and the sidewalk and of course that goes towards operating the system meaning only so that we have nice clear sidewalks and streets where it's applied this this year the rates are an additional twenty percent above the previous years rates due to an increase in the energy bills that we saw from a pretty harsh and long winter that we all experience we also had some corrections to the roll which account for some additional increases above the twenty percent rate within the downtown as a result of those that have snow melts in the in front of their particular building both on the sidewalk and street the re is twenty two dollars and forty eight cents roughly and then those that have just applied to the sidewalk in front of their building is five dollars in roughly sixty two cents so this as i said represents a twenty percent increase above the previous year's rates and it includes one hundred thirty six properties which is unchanged from last year all right thank you dana questions for staff and again this is the time in place for the public hearing on this side of her to address seeing no one we will close the public hearing on this item and the motion would be in order by the mayor pro tem supported by weitzman is there discussion do you think it speaks well  popularity and efficacy of the snow melt system that even with a substantial increase in this particular year due to the harsh winter of the past year we have certainly had questions about the increase but not sufficient so that we have objection here this evening  i think most people recognize that last winter was harsh and perhaps not an anomaly but nonetheless snow melt system is incredibly popular and something that is one of our signature things here in this community and i think really  dextre yes motion passes all right thank you thank you dana perino at that now we also have another special order of the day the twenty thirteen twenty fourteen community development block grant consolidated annual performance and evaluation report means that annually receive a block grant from the united states of america federal department of housing and urban development as part of receiving that money we have to submit and in a report back to the u s department of housing and urban development that accurately details the federal funds expended in the work accomplished through the community development block grant program this past year which ended on june thirtieth two thousand and fourteen the city expended four hundred twenty six thousand three hundred sixty one dollars and ninety four so of cd b g funds eighty three percent of those funds resulted in direct benefits to low and moderate income households and individuals specifically forty four thousand approximately forty four thousand dollars was spent on operation and management costs five thousand dollars was spent on fair housing services three thousand eight hundred dollars was spent on identifying traffic calming measures for veneral the avenue forty five thousand dollars was spent on the good samaritan ministries neighborhood connections program two hundred nineteen thousand five hundred forty nine origin eight hundred cents was spent to help sixty nine homeowners make improvements to their homes forty one thousand one hundred eighty four dollars and forty cents was spent to finish the improvements to bowers pool forty five thousand dollars was spent to rehab the old minute mart in washington square ten thousand dollars was spent to help to homeowners purchase homes through habitat for humanity twelve thousand dollars is spent to help for homeowners purchase new homes with down payment and closing costs assistance tonight we do require that the city council hold a public hearing it was noticed in the paper any comment submitted tonight in the public hearing will be included in the caper and we will submit it to hud probably early next week all right thank you joe question for general staff in general saying on time and place for the public hearing on this item if you care to address council on it please step forward to the microphone the public hearing is open and again see no one will close the public hearing and what is the pleasure of counsel by devor support supported yes yes mayor next room yes motion passes all right thank you very much and then our last special order of the day is a tax abatement public act one ninety eight four six ninety four east fortieth things they are requesting machinery equipment furniture and fixtures abatement of two point nine for two point nine million dollars worth of equipment are located as you mentioned he's forty street part of our process like to begin with this facility is to tour the facility i was it was my pleasure to do so last week and i can say that although the report indicates that there is one employee with plans to hire forty more the report is dated as of sometime ago and there are actually a number of employees working there now very actively so with us tonight i believe is mr norman chambers who's responsible for the facility as well as christine powers and can rizzio with lake shore advantage who are available to answer any of your questions all right thank you any questions for staff first of all all right then that this is the time and place for a public hearing on this tax abatement request  if you were here to address council on it or if you're a company representative we'd certainly love to hear from you as well and the microphone is open area thank you for your time tonight as you know we're applying for a rather substantial abatement for new equipment we were very fast growing company price point nine months ago is me a card table to have a big empty building day has stated we are new to how an area we are sweet in swedish based company we decided to come to us about three years ago we started in california where warehouse that i relocated to holland at the end of last year we've since moved in to holland some basic equipment we've put in iraq's we've bought over lots of inventory and we've been shipping products since january now from the holland area and business is growing rather quickly initially six weeks go and occupy about ninety thousand centrally the whole building so happy and sort of grow in that in this site so as we can and then we'll look at where we go from there wonderful thank you well welcome to town a great great well not you personally been here for a while but the company certainly welcome to town and where we're thrilled to have that kind of rapid growth and may it continue many questions for our applicant tonight yes counts woman to board place yes thank you so much for coming here and for your company in deciding to be i'm wondering why do you like it here well personally i've lived here since eighty six i've worked for a number of companies in west michigan i've worked to outside west michigan the time  mporting a lot materials were big you already have a plan we start outsourcing materials there's lots of other metal file capability and capacity available in town in the area as well as her painting is all being done on the outside right now so it's it's a good questions for applicants and i  currently i'm just under twenty dollars from the highest paid worker in the shop thank you very much doesn't become i don't answer the question i'm intrigued by sit and stay in furniture technology could you explain a little bit about very healthy thing to do is setting all these payments or kind of the new smoking there's lots of recent documentation to prove that to stand up during the day it's more healthy for you i like to encourage all my people stand up at least two hours a day at the very good all right thank you so much again for being here for your company's commitment to our area welcome thank you right the microphone is still open for anyone else who would care to make public comments on this request christine i thought you're coming up or you're just very much then we have some unfinished business to attend to the first is postponed tabled items whatever the formal tech now i technological term or not technological term but former formal term is section thirty nine dash to the definition of family section we tabled it at last meeting so we will remove it from the table at this time of motion to do so please so move move by w reading i think we did hold a public hearing on the not a public hearing we did comment last meeting on this particular item but certainly i suspect there are a few folks in chambers tonight who are here for these items so i would give the opportunity for anyone to address this particular item if they so choose on and will be getting second reading tonight this one was was tabled was delayed till tonight for first reading now this is a proposal to change thirty nine dash two of whose only ordinance to allow change definition of family allow up to foreign related persons including rumors and boarders living together as a single housekeeping group in a dwelling unit using common cooking facilities all right thank you to counsel we have this the proposed ordinance amendments that's further down the agenda the proposal for fourteen dash four point fourteen out of the size section would adopt the definition of family here or is only organs chapter fourteen incorporates that same definition and then you have for you in a chapter fourteen amendment that would propose to continue a sistine uses that are five or six related persons living together the specific portion because it is an ordinance amendment as opposed to the housing amendment which is going to come up later that this particular section is a zoning ordinance and any existing uses that are legal currently would be able to continue to exist uses and so because that also uses the same definition incorporate same definition in this then by itself would then cause chapter fourteen to prohibit any existing units used for five or six unrelated persons to no longer be legal the provision that proposed for chapter fourteen that's moving down the agenda here would include a provision that would would allow those existing uses to continue the proposed draft that's on the agenda would allow those to continue for ten years but that for their down does not have anything to do with what we're doing right now not what we're talking about right now is in layman's term if it's there now as of when we say september first but if if it's there now as a given that it's a date which is really twenty one days from today if it's there now it will continue to be there for those existing anything new will not be allowed beyond four but a sick basic layman's terms that that's a simple explanation does it as only an ordinance amendment but again once you change this it also if only you if you only the section you don't adopt the changes to chapter fourteen you only adopt the section chapter fourteen uses the same definition and chapter fourteen will prohibit the existing uses from continuing so you need to adapt if you want to lock existing use to continue you need to adapt the amendments to chapter fourteen as well people in their unit legally now for ever and change any new to only have four what do we have to do to allow the existing ones to continue on forever as then you would have got this section thirty nine dash to you would take the fourteen dash four point fourteen and leave the language in there that says until december thirty one two thousand and twenty four delete that language and adopt that section ok but that would still have the controls that if you aren't you're responsible landlord then you would could lose your privilege of having six and having your whole license revoked right hand if you fail to file within six months you would also have a revoked correct ok clarification of course it's not just for the current owner it's in perpetuity so the current owner sells the property that's currently at six continues at six until such time no longer use that six right it runs with the property ok now the question right this is first reading yes technically we do roll call this please call the roll and ok then we go to adoption of ordinances that's the second reading of all the other stuff that we handled last week related to the rental matters all of these require public hearings before before adoption introduce all of these amendments this time to them will have one public hearing on the more sure and for the ease of the people in the audience i'm going to go down the screen starting with the first bullet point so the first thing that will be discussed in this evening and th  row is expanding our excessive police call for events in the hope area which exists right now to the entire city we're going to add in excess of public service calls at both owner and owner occupied and rental properties what this does is if you have multiple violations both police related or code enforcement related that your property whether is a rental unit or an owner occupied you then you're going to be incurred by the city one thing to point out if it is a rental unit if we are receiving multiple complaints after that fourth one for code enforcement put a third one for police if it's a rental unit the city has it has at its discretion to suspend your annual rental permit some key words there that i want to use is it's at our discretion it's a may it's not a shout so just because you have four right away in twelve months it doesn't mean that we're  automatically going to go and pull this but it is a tool that we've decided to put in the tool box through this ordinance to allow another way for us to deal with the problematically and lords that are just allowing you know their properties to be somewhat of a hinderance on that neighborhood does is it allows property owners within the neighborhood to petition city hall to create a rental restriction overlay district where there will be no more rentals allowed in that area to qualify it has to be a minimum of forty eight contiguous parcels that's roughly about two blocks in the city of holland and there has to be already an existing percentage of twenty percent rental units and that district some to the whole central neighborhood and others to the entire city these rules kind of fall into two silos the first rule is the limit of that one can do in the rear or side yards we're going to take that from the pope area to the entire central neighborhood and then the other one is requiring landlords to have what's called a crime free lease and then them on the other lease agreements where if there's criminal activity occurring at their prime pretty and they didn't they can quickly event the person based on that least calls there at this point there is no schedule is that correct so it seemed like the one time the fees were pretty high but i think i heard like up to eight hundred dollars the moment right now when we defeat schedule sat's it typically is to recoup costs with some of our fee schedules that we've recommended accounts on past it's an escalating fee schedule where the first violation is that x the next time we have to come to you it's a little bit higher etc but that is a discussion that counts is going to have during that fee schedule setting you know i believe that occurs you know annually november is when those fee schedules are set things right i have one other one  as far as the rental possibilities if it goes into effect in essence your neighbors could set your ability to rent your property or not rent your property it seems to me  that although i understand the intent it becomes a rather overreach i think of private property ownership thorough and i do have concerns i understood common sense you know kind of thing in the ordinance when you read it is if we noticed it if we had to step in to do something and then if we promptly notify the property owner so if it's a domestic violence saying we're not going to notify the property owner we're not going to complete that circle to make this up that we could count expanding the whole rules one of those things that deals with how much of your side you are and how much of your back yard can be paved over and i can understand that in the whole neighborhood because there are a lot of we're not recommend that's not being recommended to the to the entire city that's been recommended to go to the entire central neighborhood with this rationale for the rationale for that is the geometrics the property dimensions in the hope they've heard area are similar if not typical of the entire central neighborhood therefore you kind of get in this mindset you know if we're going to put these kind of restrictions in the hope neighborhood to area to preserve really hard to preserve some sight guards why wouldn't we take that same kind of action now and take it to the simple neighborhood where the property dimensions are similar to a typical and have that same kind of goal to preserve their deer yards and those single family and two family neighborhoods in the center neighborhoods as well so what you're saying is because we have in the in the central neighborhood we have more people living there who have more cars so they have to get the cars of history that night so we want to prevent them from we have to limit how much they can pave their backyard side yard so that they can accommodate cars off the streets we could use my property as an example forty nine feet wide one thirty to the it's a single low driveway my family could do to make life easier just parked cars willy nilly in the backyard that way when it's time for my daughter to go to school at seven am my wife and i do leave at you know eight and a fifteen  really jockeying cars around the negative consequence of that is part willy nilly in the back yard is eventually that grass area is going to become a muddy kind of area or if we would just pave it over with  it becomes a parking lot kind of thing so if for five years when we go to sell our house we lose that backyard kind of feeling where young families like to play with football with their kids you know grow out have a little patio set cetera so the goal really is to preserve that rear yard and that side yard that you know kind of makes the home a little more attractive to the next generation that's going to be living there and raising their kids in know any other questions all right this is the time of the place for public hearing of these ordinance amendments and as we will be taking them at least at this point all in one one package if you have comments on any of these tensions changes that joel described this is the opportunity to address counsel on them again comes the rules and that please state your name and residential address for the record and you have up to five minutes to address council so w the public hearing is over bill circle eleven thirty three myrtle court why don't we just pick up where we left off recalls when peters was talking that's with the off street parking issue one of the concerns i have in looking at that provision if you look at the very end of that provision under thirty nine dash to eight for the very last provision talks about a maximum of six parked vehicles are allowed per property and my concern is with the phrase property and that it's not defined and it's somewhat ambiguous i think specifically  unit what about not residential properties that are in this district whether it's a church or other types uses there is no description of what this is applying to i think the idea is to limited to dwell in units and that might be a better way of handling that than to just simply say property i think that causes some potential problems and some consequences that would not be intended the other question i have about that is is that it is intended to apply to visitors is it just people who are overnight guest permitted occupants  perhaps it does mean visitors as well but just something to think about as we as we look at that provision the other the other item i want to bring your attention that is the excessive call ordinance as i think about that several weeks ago we were here were talking about it and we talked about changing it from shell to main making it somewhat discretionary i still have some concerns about that in effect there is not a cure provision in here for any of these violations if you look at subsection d subsection to where they talk about local ordinance violations and that's were really where i'm getting at this not so much with the public safety visitor some of the other types of things but the local ordinance violations what it includes right now is if there's a report of a violation and it results in city staff contacting the landlord to seek a remedy there's no opportunity for the cure and i wonder if it makes sense to to include a provision that maybe the violation doesn't count until and unless the landlord has not taken any steps to cure the violation i can think of several different types of examples where you have a disgruntled tenet or something of the like who who tries to make your life miserable by parking a tire off the side of the road now he's in the grass well technically that's a violation they do that fo times that's a way for them to get back at you i understand we still have the may but maybe a violation shouldn't be a violation until you've you failed to cure it or take care of it just something to think about so thank you thank you the hope student i am in sophomore i hope college and i'm in a sorority and i heard about this a lot and i don't have the best understanding of what is going on and from the general meeting i think i have a sense of it but i know there's a hope student i pay an arm and a leg to go to whole college and i heard about the rant going would go out drastically you know personally i work i'm going to be working a job within like the next couple weeks i'm starting a job i know students who work for jobs just to pay their rent and i just want you guys to consider that hope students can't just run home to mom and dad and be like hey like i need money because my rents going up astronomically and also something to think about is that if like i understand that i from my general understanding is that you want current lake rent rental people i don't own my own people and i don't know if they're called but that they're going to get grandfathered in and like they'll be fine as long as  they're doing their job properly and making sure that there's the students that are renting aren't massing up but it's just kind of like where is this all  there's going to be people who mess up likes college students aren't perfect and i know that sometimes they just make mistakes so by eventually probably some rental people are going to get cut from it and then more people more like rentals will pop up farther from hope college which will increase your traffic all of these laws that you're making to make sure that cars aren't in the street may have to be put under the vision again and it's just like i feel that there is more trouble being done that could affect you long term and i just don't want myself to have to deal with that and i don't want students to come to deal with that and i know that the holland community really enjoys the college students but my fear is that honestly if there's too many roles and it becomes more expensive most people won't consider whole college like i definitely took it under consideration when i came here is how expensive it is so i think that you should consider the students within these decisions and not just what could come from the city but like welcome come free your population as well welcome hi my name is stephanie all is i also in con hall but grew up on the north side of holland i'm a tour guide at hope college and one thing we talk about is how hope is expanding and growing and we love the community at whole college and it is a requirement that you live on campus freshman and sophomore year and that's what builds a community and that's what makes students want to stay close to hope and if you end with us growing that's larger classes of students meaning more students that need housing off campus in their junior and senior year and if you put the amount of arguments to four it's going to keep pushing students how of your general campus location and i think that holland is going to feel a greater impact of college students the more they expand out and growing up in holland i knew about hope college but it was never something that impacted my social life or my safety year like i didn't feel a huge college presence and i think that's important in the city of homs that you still have that feel of families can live here college students can live here and everybody's welcome all right thank you for anyone's talking six to four this did live in coming home i was at hope college you know you're a junior senior now living yeah exactly exactly so anyway i do reside in the neighborhood i went to hope lived here for a while moved away as you know from when i was here a few years ago in the overnight parking is and now lived back here for five years and joining it i'm in the central district and i've been kind of following this through the newspaper the one son know versus being heard all the meetings and i've just as a resident had some you know input or questions and things like that i think what i would like to see from the city from hope college from the from the landlords and from the owners is more a sense of community and working together i do understand that there are some issues that i read about with college students perhaps having an off campus parties now that's happened before mr peters unexpected that you would have them i would say to students because i've heard some of these stories that people are vomiting in the streets or leaving beer cans or peeing and things like that as a resident whether i would be a fellow renter or whether it be an owner i don't think that's good neighbor behavior and i'd like to see that stop i don't think it's limited only to renters i've seen it happen with owners who have parties i have an annual party in the holidays with seventy people that the city manager was at with mutual friends that councilman peters was invited out i'm pretty sure that he didn't vomit or pee when he left however you know i can't be certain but i just think that there's needs to be respect for each i've heard a statistic that sixty percent of police calls i don't know if this is true or not are due to renters but a statistic without context is simply a statistic of that sixty percent how many are actually t or six or whatever or how many to places like where i live i rent in one thousand eight hundred square foot home and so i would technically be qualified has there ever been a breakdown of that something else i don't know is has there been a conversation  with hope and the city and some landlords and some of the owners to come up with this idea of again community in working together like i read in the grand rapids press last year that there was a college i don't know if it's aquinas or calvin that  has you know if a student is going off campus they have to sign a document saying they will be a good neighbor the landlords have to sign a document saying they will help and force the good neighbor so that you can again work together that's what i'd like to see happen here more what i don't want to see as a member of the community there's a them and us because we're not of them and us we all live together we should be working together and trying to do it both ways  so one of the things also i've heard this is a little bit you can't can't have it both ways you know i've heard that we don't want to have too much parking in the street do the density so you know we've been trying this summer this you know allowing it overnight by the way thank you for that it's been working so far armageddon has not occurred however having said that you know we've got this limiting of to the central area for example where i live i have a driveway i'm fine don't worry about me but that people can't now take part of their lawn maybe not all of it but part of it to do this cement well if you want to off the street they've got to be able to have to go somewhere because this even joe mentioned he's got a family and the last person in is in the last isn't the first person in the morning so i would say i don't know if it's something that you can restrict to say half of the yard so that you still have some aesthetics and some flowers and if you like me black foam so that you still can meet the needs of people who need to have cars especially since again it's not our dad's buick anymore now it's the prius that this the that and everything else and so the other thing i would like to say in closing is that well not quite in closing but one thing for councilman birch sent now that you said that renters don't have the same values as owners quite frankly i was offended by that i am a renter i take very good care of the property all the owners around me don't have snow blowers i don't know what they do and i don't i'm out there shoveling the sidewalk even though they don't so that those kids can get to school and that those people can get to evergreen commons so i don't want to hear of somebody who represents the city saying that because i'm a renter or other renters who may be renters because they lost their jobs or they lost their forty eight forty six one hundred forty six seven of how short comment i share the same concern as it relates to cure as sarah timeline on that is city year and you get four you're done his are you done with two years three with four so i think it is important there are some means to cure the issue because we can be on top of everything with runners in a matter of minutes ok and to point was previously bought up about a tire  off the parking area on the grass we all know that that's a hard one but i try my best to make sure the tenants know that's not to happen and we've had to talk about what we should be able to cure that without any incurable penalty that has very severe consequences thank you thank you street in terms of the overlay district can have a formal thing i was going to say but in doing some research on it looked to see what other cities are doing and i looked at w minnesota went on to minnesota is about the same size as holland has a state university they limit their housing to three people  up with later but they also have a policy that only thirty percent of a block can be run toll housing talking with the  were the same kind of grandfathering there was an older district where high density housing that passed the ordinance lending any new housing to thirty percentage of a block he says we see a dramatic difference in the community of the old housing with many problems and as people become scattered through the community the problems diminish the students tend to become part of the neighborhood and actually in many cases become an asset to the can to the neighborhood so just in support of that overlay district it's a little awkward we've talked about that before but i do like the idea of dispersing the student body as much as possible to so they don't become  confined and density is something i'll talk about later ok thank you western edge of whole neighborhood and we have students living next door in a house having a landlord who lives in chicago hard previous meetings related relating to the current issue have focused on three issues investments the students themselves and what oversight there might be as far as investments are concerned and with respect to landlord most comments centered on shrinking profits if allowable residence change from six to four i suspect  current performances that may include projected profit of significantly more than the average homeowner is getting on their fixed income investments business business is in the neighborhood in our particular neighborhood it's the bed and breakfast that i'm thinking about they've made a large investment and late night parties next door are not good business they've had obviously up to the occasion where residents pack up their bags and leave before morning owner occupants i will say that most of the owner occupants will have made what is likely to be the largest investment of their life the return on their investments can be profoundly affected by the number of student rentals as far as students are concerned if it is in our case often a matter of too many cars although this year it's very manageable summer rentals are subdivided in the summer and often are arranged by the contract holder and difficult to verify numbers we've talked about parties and there will be always parties distorted view of what is neighborhood as far as the students are concerned at our church  contained encouraged to be in the world but not of the world most students are in the neighborhood but not of the neighborhood of the aspect of overshirt oversight the question is who does it i think that's been somewhat clarified there are city staff that do some college does hand and obviously what the police are involved i have a couple of suggestions one of them being what is currently happening in our particular neighborhood greenwood realty was kind enough to provide parking permits which were given to us to give to the students so that they can in the event of  stacked up drive away parked there actually parked their cars by in greenburg on green ridge realty parking lot with this ticket in the window and they have been honoring that i really appreciate that in view of or in lieu of finds an option might be mandated to offer a series of classes through  college that lead the violator through an appreciation of the core neighborhood model in case of having men obvious in my comments i'm here to support the reduction of rentals from six to four q all right thank you here welcome debbie rowe x i live at forty seven east fourteenth street my husband i just built there so we're kind of a new thing here we came to holland because our life we got a church here we're got the dow have for ten years love the energy of hope students randy's homes are written actually right behind me they've been great neighbors but i must say as a property owner i love it that you guys are really looking into this because if you want to encourage to be property owners and to sustain the city of holland and to keep its good standards i think you can do that with i love the idea of grouping with hope students and the community and doing this together i thought that was a great idea from  name but also that there's a vision from the city of holland and the standards that line for our rentals and for property owners and hope is going to stay hope is going to grow and i have no problem with that i enter the neighborhood knowing that but i also love to have the peace of mind as a property owner that my value is also encouraged and grown also i think the next generation is the more urban i love downtown i think it's a great spot to be had i'm kind of shocked that it hasn't happened more but i think people are afraid that can i trust this can we do this why get my value out of my house i want to and i want to stay i think that helps the hope students to have sustainable neighborhood and it's the property owner i think we can have a good partnership here but i think it has to be intentional and both valued so i'm not in against or either by just would like there to be an intention and a value for both i think best to work with our neighbors as a rental property but i feel like is a little bit of oversight for our neighbors to pursue the charges of the calls for public service or public safety also sorry six to four people i know we're going to discuss this later on however i work two jobs as of right now seventy five hours plus a sixty momentary lapse we don't he did have a motion because they're already on the floor correct no no we called for a motion roll call vote area all right we do motion them please on the on the whole lot of them unless you choose to do otherwise move to prove moved counsel yeah i guess i would prefer that we would vote on those separately but i think that the earth quite different and perhaps it would tell us something so i don't know if that ok but i think that some of them i really like and a couple others you know but i think it just because ok comments on the package anyone seem to talk about this for quite some time comes from an important place none of this is or simple or perfectly clean i i really think it's the best effort with what we would like to see in the neighborhoods and to encourage responsible behavior on the part of everyone whether you're a hope student were resident or an owner and i really think the goal for all of this is that we live as a community that we appreciate the differences  whatever our life stages whatever our responsibilities whatever kind of family we have that we're here to work together but sometimes people don't live within the lines and then that's the role of government to draw lines so i think this is the best effort for what we're trying to accomplish and i appreciate all the work that went into coming to this stage at this time meeting ever which is great but we need to nancy said something very poignant and that this is not just a hope college issue this is something and the three things we're talking about now are to extend policies that have been working in the hope neighborhood to the rest of the city i have of the earth rental in my neighborhood right behind my house it's not hope college student it's a problem home from my perspective as a member of the neighborhood and i want to see some of these tools expanded into that area my i live in the core and central neighborhoods and and i want to see these rules extended so it's not a hope college student thing it's for everyone so appreciate all of the comments tonight issue to have to go too far or to be too stringent and i certainly take heed with some of his proposed solutions i'm not sure we need them at this point i think that we'll let this play out a bit  legitimate calls from the ones that are done vindictively by either neighbors or tenants or others seeking to to utilize this weapon as here this this law is a weapon so with that please call the r all right thank you we will then move down to item twelve which is communications the audience is opportunities for the audience to address council on matters that do not otherwise show up on the agenda so hypothetically if you want to talk about twenty five or six to four to what you all chicago songs and all the hopes and right over their head but nonetheless you certainly may do so later on but this if you have some to talk with us about that's not on the agenda here's your good evening and welcome again either chairman ed koc five zero one central avenue i don't know if it's a state thing or a city thing but you know we're talking about late night parties if it is a city thing can you please consider in the future reducing the fireworks back to something other than one a m police when we check in that actually goes more than just the whole college district that really in my neighborhood it's like you know if i'm yeah when i am sorry no no no mope a little while ago so i am going to bed sooner than i used to so anyway talk a lot about that because that has been a bit of let's just say it's been a topic of much conversation and much frustration a few years ago the state of michigan  decided to things in large measure broad brush one we should increase the type and size of fireworks that can happen and who we should decide that one set of rules ought to apply for an urban area like your neighborhood the same rule should apply that to the most rural township in northern michigan and so what the state of michigan did is on days where people most likely are to use fireworks fourth of july a day before day of and day after federal holidays said basically local governments government can't regulate any shooting of fireworks now they later clarified it and said well you can set parameters in terms of how late into the night someone can fire off fireworks but if you live on twel street central avenue or if you live on a country road in northern michigan the same rules apply by the same fireworks you can shoot them off at the same point on those days that we have done is we've taken the ability that the state has still allowed us to have and said on days where the state law doesn't apply fireworks shooting fireworks is an illegal activity in the city of holland all of which is wonderful except that enforcement becomes an issue right the police have stepped or as my neighbor said but the city you know i can't until one am right precisely so the state has foreclosed our ability to really have a lot of action on it around those federal holidays again when a lot of people raise very much so i just want to bring it up we hear what you're saying but we would encourage you as we've done many times to contact your state legislators and raise those points which we agree are very valid of the problem is our hands are somewhat tied by state law ok thank you thank you very much  i would also add that the state legislature did that under what they refer to as the michigan fireworks safety  you know truthfully if it's going to be a discussion about jay will suspend the rules to any other discussion for counsel tonight that is otherwise not on the agenda all right thank you we the down to page two of the agenda and we have some gifts please dealt we don't have some people we do it and guess but not yet we have the the other item the ordinance amendments to section fourteen dash four point one four dwelling units it's the one one section and phil are you going to introduce this for us and this would be a matter that would be a first reading of the ordinance so assuming something passes out of here this evening it would be it would come back to us in two weeks have a public hearing like we did on the other matters just a moment ago but phil perhap introduce that for us at this time yes i will thank you this is the companion piece to the ordinance amendment we talked about earlier thirty nine dash two was the earlier discussion this is an amendment to the housing code  this would essentially sort of add some language to the hasnt code that states a dwelling unit shall not be occupied by more than one family and for those units with five or six unrelated to dulce as of september first two thousand and fourteen they would be allowed to keep their number at five or six for a ten year period this right to continue would expire if the basic annual housing permit were revoked or the permit were allowed to expire for a period of six months and the maximum would then become four those are the basic provisions of this as we talked in the precession with council there there are three parts to the occupancy amendment  here the first as i said not more than one family the second is the one with the dwelling unit may continue to be occupied until december thirty first two thousand and twenty four and then the third is that that subject subsection will not apply to the only unit if the basic housing permit for the dwellings were vote or exposures for a period of six months there is a provision in fourteen four point three seven as well that adds a paragraph c n n u a basic housing permit may be suspended by the department of community and neighborhood services or revoked by action of city council for violations of th add to that just one thing in the occupancy provision that subsection three about the annual basic housing permits or the right to continue with five to six and then if it's revoked that's revoked and not suspended staff out that it would be too serious for just a suspension and so we used the word revoked in there and that would be action by city council to revoke program as opposed to a suspension that was talked earlier all right thank you for that clarification any questions for staff members of council all right though yes i was what questions from berkeley the number of years ten  could could you explain that a little bit you know for the position of staff or maybe us the attorney for the city attorney in a study session i think it was a week ago there was some discussion about it allowing existing units with five or six persons living them to continue for a period of time in drafting it i guess is just sort of an arbitrary number that we inserted in there if you want to make it longer or shorter you can change that by  a rental property with an occupancy of six three years from now doesn't do all the things that require them to maintain his rental permit and he loses that and  or or if he sells the property that i hear you say mr mayor that the this right stays with the property or can we say that if one of these six unit homes ever became one up for sale that if it could revert back to it didn't necessarily have to keep the six it could mandatory we could say right once it's sold it could go back to four weeks you can amortize these in a different manner that would be one way of doing it as currently written the the right goes with the property so if it's sold that continues for the ten years the the the question i raised earlier was not so much related to the sun setting or sun rising provision but was more about the question of if if there is if this provision is not with him and we just blanket grandfather anyone who's here in a rental landlord situation right now at six then it's not as if at the point of sale that changes and stays with the property indefinitely but that was the point of my question now how do you know if jay your question is you know can we modify this provision to keep it at six until such time as a sale occur occurs you know it would be a matter of drafting the right piece of issues for or against that but  sale or transaction happens and use changes this is it then therefore subject to the new sixty four right  probably five different scenarios i think within that that question and you know the first is if there are violations of the zoning or housing law that and nothing else that would not terminate the rights so if the landlord is cited for a violation through an inspection or otherwise that would not cause and under this language that would not cause him to forfeit that right the next step we talked earlier about the the crank call provision for example could lead to a suspension of the rental permit a suspension of the rental permit would not cause them to lose these rights under the ordinances directive the next stage would be if that permit was allowed to expire the permits are annual permits if it's allowed to expire without being renewed for six months they would lose that right to continue with five or six occupant the other another example would be if the well if the property were to be is currently occupied by five or six but dropped down to four into conforming use that then they're allowed to go back into the non conforming use it's yeah but that's a pretty good statement of the log stuff that the courts have of also impose d an intent element to it saying you have to intend to abandon your your use so if for example a property is being used in violation of the zoning ordinance but it's a preexisting legal non conforming use and they just stop using it for a period of time and then want to go back to it there has to be an element of intent and tensional abandonment of that use to trigger that their law but if their intent is to go back to that use they still have that non conforming use right going forward  place which brings up another little scenario around if they make a modification to the dwelling they had six made modification to go back to four or go to for whatever for whatever reason and then all the son decided they want to go back to six they would still have that right i think when she make the modification changing the physical structure to go back to for that that would be a good evidence of that abandonment but i wonder if the way it's currently worded they would have the right to go back to six and as currently worded back to six through two thousand and twenty four the way it's currently written correct let's remember that the way it's currently written it's not written in his own code correct so no i just kind of and i understand that and is just trying to get through some of these scenarios in the what ifs there's no way we're going to cover every single scenario but if that's kind of important if there is a major modification major remodel because you're saying that this right goes with the property but if there's a substantial change of the property then that rate should go away i  that would be one additional provision we could add to it certainly if you desire any other questions was that all right in order to get the scutcheon going it will certainly bring up a public comment but that this is not technically a public hearing time so we'll get a motion on the floor first and then we'll have common audience supported by birch ok anyone from the audience would like to address this particular item here's a chance to do so and the ordinary rules apply and mr now is well versed in the good evening again dan good evening there i apologize for  you know apology necessary daniella forty eight forty six hundred forty six that this is a weighty issue and i appreciate all the time and effort that you've all put into considering that this is been done in quite a number of other places in the past we've gone through the same thing east ransome went through it in the late nineties and came to some conclusions in ninety seven an arbor went through it and came to some conclusion both of those entities looked at the various issues in the concerns and problems they would have and decided to grandfather the existing structures that that were in place they chose to do it  number of reason one which was quite clearly they didn't want to get into the discussion about a taking that can be a very complex discussion whether you do it today whether you do it five years from now whether you do it ten years from now it's a take you take value from an owner you take property rights from an owner so i appreciate the consideration don't don't get me wrong i absolutely appreciate the consideration but i do believe that as a matter of law when you get to that point of having that discussion and i apologize i am not  ordained that that discussion will go differently then in some other areas the ordinance was challenged in east lansing by landlords it was challenged  to try and reverse that they didn't want to as constraints the landlords failed and they failed in large part because their rights weren't taken it was prospective not retrospective they said on it going forward basis we're going to do this we're not going to take something away from you that you have i would strongly request and encourage counsel to look at it in that fashion the other issues the behavioral issues that we have to deal with that we all have to deal with are not really going to be driven by six and four they're going to be driven by landlord behaviors are going to be driven by tenet behavior they're going to be driven by a number of things that won't change with that number the tools that you're giving our city staff to deal with these issues whether it's parking restrictions whether it's zero tolerance direction i think can deal with many of the i'll say overt problems but i would request that you seriously consider removing the ten year sunrise or sunset provision and look at grandfathering that and let that travel with the property let it travel with ownership change as these other entities do and i would also be fully willing to accept severe sanctions for poor behavior one of the things that happens in lansing there are certain things that  landlord can do they can actually end him up in jail for not doing their duty i personally don't have a problem with that we'll do our job thanks for your consideration and you here without being sad i live in the community and i am a community and i hope that some of the students that live in our community right now hope grads who cruelly don't live here i hope that they will want to come back and live here and be of our community trying to make that side also i do work a job right now and i'm in a sorority and i hope and i've been excited to live off campus you know live with  my sisters through that being said i will not be able to do that if i can't afford to live there right now i've been looking and talking to some of the older girls is going to be hard for me to manage but if it goes to him from four i mean from six to four i won't be able to do that unfortunately my parents won't be able to help me out and i do pay for more than just living expenses i have to pay for my car and i just just hope of the cells i haven't because i even if homes are grandfathered hope is growing and we will need more homes for more students and we won't be able to some of those students will be able to afford those homes and i guess that's why i'm saying maybe i'm not talking for myself i'm talking about the hope students to come and i just hope that they don't want to deal with that thank you that i understand that the goal is to live as a community and we should do that and that this isn't just to abide by hope students in to lessen the parties or lessen the chaos that's going on it also i understand that it also impacts like maybe gang related activity or just problem homes but by limiting the number from six to four i don't believe that that will help the scenario of the residents that live next door to students at all and i really just think that it will hurt the individuals that want to live off campus like the leo's said we look forward to living off campus our senior junior year with our sisters and we don't necessarily destroy all of the four of them like six is a good number and it more make it really difficult to also afford paying rent if it's lowered to four because then the landlords will have to raise the prices up and i have to work for where i'm at right now and it would just make it a lot more difficult and it just added i feel like it goes beyond just hope student but that will just cause more conflict than resolution and for us to just understand that like thank you i'm jane johnson i live it for four to north lake shore drive in part township where the maximum number of unrelated people who can occupy a living unit is five thanks for listening to all sides of this occupancy issue and trying to mitigate the harsh consequences of a four person limit rule by grandfathering in current landlords and tenants but as it's been already said tonight hope college will continue to grow there will be more students needing housing they will move farther out into the community the six to four number is not going to solve any of the issues that i have been hearing about as i've been sitting through these mage the majority of the issues raised by residents have involved parking issues which could be resolved with new parking regulations requiring parking stickers re pirate requiring certain other things there are very easy ways to resolve those issues and they're big could be very easily enforced with police drive bys but if you were dot adopt this restriction ordinance do you understand how hard it will be for y smart hard working already very busy city staff to enforce you'll have to hire more employees to enforce this ordinance will you have to raise our taxes to pay their salaries it's not going to be an easy job that's my first question the second question is in the summer of two thousand and twelve a task force met to discuss these same issues that have been brought up this time this group was made up of representatives from hope college and police students landlords in the city and this group researched the issues we've well and hard and came up with solutions including the crime free lease and mandated landlord adjacent homeowner neighbor communications we thought we'd set up procedures where residents student conflicts could be resolved why is the subject even being brought up again how can those of us who are involved in these relationships be assured that this issue won't come up again in two years it's been two years here it is again now you're talking ten years is this really going to be a ten year thing or when someone complains instead of actually looking at the issues are you just going to give it a bandaid saying go from six to four the home owner student relationship will always require a little give and take on both sides students learn to be better neighbors as they prepare to enter the non collegiate world residents can find their lives very much in risk enriched by the enthusiasm and fresh idea of the students and i would hate to see that not happen but six students in a house or four students and house is totally irrelevant to the issues that are that cause this whole thing so in i've also been a landlord and i've had very good tenants in the past so ironically don't see the difference between four and six with hope college growing they need a place to go and not to mention with different people here that i've heard there goes quite a bit of income you know when they've already own these properties for a long time i just think it's you know common sense i just don't understand why has to go down to four it's just what it seems like most of the other folks have said tonight i was i'm a city resident i was a college graduate i hope college graduate i lived off campus my senior year and i read through some of the four hundred pages of the preparatory material for tonight's conversation the three issues that i saw i brought up was noise parking and primary those well primarily noise parking and property upkeep i have to reiterate as well i can understand how going from six students unrelated persons whatever it might be in a home down to four is going to resolve any issue of  noise my senior year i had a job i bought a really big subwoofer and really big speakers my neighbors didn't like me very much and i lived with one other individual so there were two people and i had always weisel violations i don't think it's going to make any difference going from six to four as far as the parking issue i understand the idea of paving some of the backyards isn't something that's really happy but again if you have four students living in these homes with the i don't remember the exact size of the lot  but you're not parking for cars in that drive where you're going to have to pay a portion of the back it's not really going to matter i don't think whether you go from four to six and last it is kind of it has been mentioned by other people as well property upkeep and taking care of these properties it's my experience as i've seen and i'm friends with with at least one of the landlords they take very good care of the properties that they have i can't speak for all landlords but my sense is going to be if you drop it from six to fo you're going to the landlords are going to have less of an income causing them to not want to reinvest in their property not make continuous improvements in their property and potentially even sell now and sell to companies out of chicago or management companies that aren't going to value the things that have here this is going to cause local landlords to sell these properties not wait about ten years because in ten years we're going to be worth even less than they are now if they aren't able to have more people in them it just seems to me that we're punishing landlords and republishing students as they're going to have to pay higher costs as well and last but certainly not least as a been said everybody else and i'm a business major from hope college so i under stand the the laws of supply and demand if you lessen the supply why the demand is still going to be there from hope college and hope college students you're just going to have more and more rental houses that are going to pop up and you have more and more people in the city upset because they have renters next to them even though they don't live in the hope district anymore on top of that all those people who are going to move farther and farther out from hope are going to be driving and parking on the street far more than we have now so i just don't don't see the advantages that's going to come from sixty four oh sorry my last point i know it's been compared to this is what they do in east lansing ann arbor kalamazoo grand rapids talk to some of the holland residents and ask them if they want  holland to look like east lansing to they want to look like grand rapids they want to look like ann arbor we're different we don't want to look like a city so i don't buy the argument there either but that's what their cities have decided to do th ago my wife and i returned to school and that your michigan state was a life changing experience missing the intellectual stimulation learning resources and access to the arts and sports of the college environment provides we added college communities in western michigan and found a neighborhood near hope college where we had walking access to libraries three of them theatres music intellectual stimulation sporting activities and oh by brant don't own it was a great neighborhood a mix of single family homes owner occupied rentals some students and college owned hose is still a great place to live but its neighbors make neighborhoods transient rumors are not neighbors it is not that temporary residents are not welcome but there is a tipping point where the balance is lost in so is a sense of neighborhood density does make a difference the differences between chicago and grand rapids between grand rapids and holland between holland board kilo are largely differences in density as homes are replaced by rooming houses density increases and increased density creates challenges increases problems of parking noise trash concrete and exacerbates tensions over lifestyles stable stakeholders or is necessary to maintain balance sustainable neighborhoods where housing people concentrating individuals into tighter quarters can be very profitable and these profits attract investors many of whom are out of town landlords who seem to have no interest in the city other than how much money they can make and with little regard for the community and its residents we now live next to a re adapted structure a two apartment three bedroom home converted now into a ten bedroom house this is house as part of a big operation a multimillion dollar enterprise operating under three business structures holding eighteen rooming houses that dread generates hundreds of thousands of dollars in annual rental many other college communities are former restrictive than holland has been and even more restrictive than this proposal and adams home of the university of georgia the number of unrelated adults has been reduced from four to two and one on a minnesota i mentioned home to one on a state university only three unrelated adults and only thirty percent of the properties in any block can be rentals reading pennsylvania also has a limit of three unrelated adults and rentals must be at least eight hundred feet apar residential neighborhoods near hole for threaten but still have potential to be community treasures and premier housing areas if balance populations can be maintained where else can residents walk to parks libraries downtown with the stores and restaurants the aiders the miller music center the dos field house and the new holland civic center new construction proves that there is interest by high rents extracted from high density student housing make price couples and families from market and high density structures may be hard to repurpose as traditional family living reducing student housing density will change in neighborhoods will require adjustments the proposal to allow time for a landlord's with her current rental permits to adjust an advertiser investments will give the community the student body and the college time to adjust housing may have to be provided in a broader area and if hope college seeks to increase its own role much it may have to accept the responsibility of housing more of its student population you have an opportunity to protect neighborhoods and promote the general welfare of a whole community passage of these ordinances should help to build more balance congeal neighborhoods it will work of city officials and force ordinances and students landlords residents city officers and college officials work together to enhance a residential experience of all of us well good evening and welcome on my name's madison bush i live in fairbanks partment three hundred i'm also hope college student and i almost feel like foolish asking this but i'm just wondering if they're like is maybe a possibility to just have like an exception for like the hope students like within the six to four rule because it seems that they who we are the ones who are like that will be like really affected by this and  yeah i'm just curious that it's like there's been any a discussion of maybe just like that the hopes that it's kind of like prove that their hopes didn't like their the landlord in the landlord like i'm not sure like how that would work exactly like i haven't really thought that much into it except for just now but i'm just curious if that would be like a possibility to just on yet to have an exemption for the help since thank you out think we all know this and i suspect most everyone watching knows this but this is a first reading it's not an adoption so assuming whatever assuming something passes in this section i will come up for for a public hearing in two weeks before final adoption into the code of organs so with that discussion  city of holland sixteen and a half square miles of land committee times when children grow they have growing pains their legs ache their muscles ache it's natural holland has always had growing pains it's a good problem it's a new challenge it's normal we have not been afraid of doing some unique things in this community a windmill snowmelt minister will power plants sewer plants water a tunnel under the airport developing a new downtown area there's been a lot of changes in holland over my lifetime changes what happens general electric baker furniture lifesavers not during my lifetime but the sugar beet factory we used to make  the outskirts of holland we had romer boat chris craft with park davis river boat that sort of now we have new businesses new electronic kinds of things better ease office furniture all kinds of great things change happens but college has been around almost one hundred fifty years if we go to our east we'll find centennial park and to know park was given to the city of holland by its residents an eight hundred seventy six as a commemorative one hundred years of progress of this country in that park alberta's christian been roll to the statue stands it up looks to the east again to hope college back in one thousand nine hundred sixty two nine hundred sixty one when i went there the civic center it was use now we have a great basketball stadium we didn't have a football stadium except we had riverview park the theater was at the sixth floor of the science building it was called the little theater and it was indeed little hope college has grown it will continue grow it will be here longer or the probably anyone in this room will be i hope so change is inevitable we can either embrace it or we can be fearful of it i hope it we were talking about the great things thirty years ago i hope college well they still have great sports they have events they have theater they have libraries they have elder classes they have all kinds of really cool things on how cool it must be can be if you live your whole college i would like to see as challengers as to not be afraid of six versus four i see it as a new challenge i think we can make it work think it's group it's a great opportunity why do we want to not advance ourselves density is going to be here what are we going to do i see the biggest problem is going to be parking we have a new hotel going up we have new music buildings by hope college parking was a problem back in one thousand nine hundred sixty one nine hundred sixty one it's still a problem that's something that we're going to have to encumber and some kind of level i think we have a lot of good ordinances i think if we have work with students and landlords and the city and how police department we can resolve some of these issues and i think we can move ahead and i'm not afraid of change and bracing it i've been listening a lot though if you've been paying attention tonight you understand that there's a lot to listen to and there are a number of players in this situation all of whom are trying to protect and preserve something we have a number of homeowners who are trying to protect their investments and their their way of life we have investors who are trying to protect their investment and their long term long term outlook on income in the return of investment we have a city who is trying to look out for the interests of the city in the residence try to create neighborhoods that are  and viable and up to this point up until the night we've had renters who we haven't heard a lot from and i'm glad that you're here and have a voice your opinions who are just  trying to find a place to live and get along in life and we have as if you've paid any attention you can understand that the perspectives are different from each one of those groups so try to find a perfect answer or solution to this problem i've tried and frankly there isn't any and we think it going to try to make one point here and then i'll have something else up my sleeve to try  i think what we're trying to do here as as leaders and policy makers as it is from exercise and best intention and hope for outcomes and i think we're trying to sort of cast this regulatory net over an existential see if you will and and hope that we catch more problems than not frankly i don't think good regulations make for good i think good people make for good neighborhoods as you've alluded to i would and the issue of numbers even though i am willing to go along with it as there are  y some figures and results and things like that that would indicate that there are probably some residual good outcomes from reducing from one number to another not having a lot of experience with nuns i would guess that if you had a dozen living in a house there impact of abel hood would be substantially different than having two or three hooligans so i'm not convinced that the numbers in and over themselves are you know the final answer to focus on so i guess the point that i'm trying to make is that i hope that we don't lose sight of the fact that regardless of what we try to do in terms of regulations to approve neighborhoods and make them neighborhoods of choice which is ultimately what we're trying to do for everyone coming into this you know that includes students to have and we have to recognize that we have a unique situation of the fact that we have outstanding college nestle inside of a city and the requirements for those who are going to school here and part of it just having a place to live and we have to wrestle with that and i'm confident that the way we solve problems in this town is is out of  a culture of cooperation and understanding mutual interests coming to conclusions and solutions that benefit everybody and that's going to difficult the situation because as we've heard  everybody's got a little bit different perspective on things in terms of the  i guess we're calling it the sunset feature of the item that we're discussing right now i have to applaud the mayor for some creative thinking he had and coming up with that as a option to sort of land of i don't know i would prefer not to have the rules of the game changed halfway through of talk to a number of folks who our  purchase properties have made substantial investments in those properties not just in the purchase but in the upgrading and frankly you know whether regardless of what we think of those houses some of them he way they do represent some of the better exercises in renewable within the inner city we can't ignore that fact that evolves investment and i think it's reasonable for someone entering into that situation under a certain set of understandings should be able to operate fairly well into the future  those standards and expectations are going to be so i'm going to float amendment to the item that we're considering here and see how it goes i am proposing that we to delete the words until december thirty one two thousand and twenty four of this all we're doing is removing the sunset provision so if you have a property or whatever that is actually about by five or six folks right now that would be the term we're using is grandfather  i guess ok anyway the bottom line is you wanted to stay with the property at whatever they have it legally set up for as of september one right yeah i think i really think that's probably the best way to go  i know through all of these we're talking about investments in the hope students are here investing in their education and in their future and having a taste of neighborhood  people that bought homes there have an investment with their family with their neighborhood with their lives and the business owners have an investment to make profit off of the renting of these homes and and i i do think it's really important to have that number three on there that if they're if the basic permit is revoked or if they're  they don't really know who it over a six month period that they lose their five or six status and it goes down to four i think that's reasonable i i really appreciated what you  said delay a lot about wanting to come and live in highland because you felt welcomed and safe and those are huge values that we really want to encourage in every neighborhood in holland and i would hope that every person in holland feels welcomed and say and i think we really have to work to create sometimes the variety in a neighborhood that helps us learn that even better because if we're all the same we don't really learn how to welcome each other in a unique way and so i think it's reasonable  to keep the homes at six that are at six but from now on let's go to four and as hope grows if we need more housing that i think it's an asset to other neighborhoods to also have hope students living there and i think those hopes students will also have a better experience than if they're all in the same neighborhood because you already had the dense feeling of living as freshmen and sophomores i'm campus that's one kind of learning that's one kind of home feeling but it's a whole different thing when you go out and live in the neighborhood of a city and there are different expectations and levels of responsibility and a whole nother feeling and i think that's all a great part of stepping up in the world of maturity and it's a great for all neighborhoods to learn from having help students in them and and for all of us to have variety in our neighborhoods and as paul said with his research project and when oh no that having a thirty percent within a neighborhood was a good strong feeling in that neighborhood because there was writing we need builders in our neighborhoods we need fresh people in our neighborhoods we need variety and if we can all understand that and appreciate that i think we're going to have much stronger neighborhoods and therefore a much stronger city so none of these things that we're passing is here to go against anyone the main thing our goal if we realize that in order to have a strong city you have to have a series of strong neighborhoods and people that understand the value community and we really want every neighborhood to make every person feel welcome and safe and i hope around after hope and i hope all the students really enjoy being a part of the city and i appreciate the fact that you have stayed through all this time i'm sure you had no idea that city council meetings could go this long i mean one issue like this but it does happen and you're staying here really shows that you care and who knows where that's going to lead you in your life you'll probably get involved in other kinds of issues and be able to speak in an articulate intelligent way because you have gone through this education process and you have learned how to work with people at all different stages of life and you become a better  able more able person to contribute back to society and that's that's really the goal of all colleges and so we're really glad that we could go through this as a community with all these different people and  different different perspectives on life and community and i appreciate hearing from everyone and i know and i do appreciate the patients and the kindness and the measured speech  of those who have lived here a very long time we have an excellent community because of people like you thank you very much to some this was kind of a sharp reversal of what they thought it was going to do i've been listening to a lot of people i've been doing a lot of research and been doing a lot of soul searching if you will i typically don't write down speeches i like to fly off the cuff if you will but there was some points that i wanted to try to get across in the first one is  and i'm going to use these terms in generalities so just generalities well i just made up a new word basically the damage has already been done is some would say to the neighborhoods and our main focus is policymakers is to control future damage grandfathering the existing six person unit but don't allow any more which davis is very eloquently put together with us but we have a lot of work that has to be done in the meantime i've said it in a number of times there's good renters there's not so good renters there's good landlords there's not so good run landlords there's good single family property owners and there's not so good that's what makes our city we have to figure out a way to make it equitable we have to figure out a way to have a balance between against residents that are renters and residents that are property owners i said a couple weeks ago that if i had my druthers to save a neighborhood that's the way i would go and i think with this compromise that's exactly what's happening from anybody that's up here i probably got the most intimate knowledge of this area i'm not going to bore you with the details again you've heard it before i've seen what's happened in this neighborhood i've lived in this neighborhood that's the operative word there was a suggestion maybe it was off the cuff that there be some sort of class that maybe some of the the under classman might be interested in going to and how to assimilate themselves into a neighborhood not a bad idea i realize that when you get out there for the first time you want to spread your wings a little bit kick up your heels you gotta roll realize that you're in somebodies neighborhood you're going to only be there for sure period of time don't wreck it for everybody else and what you do whether you are specifically involved or just unfortunately by association that attitude from the people that are left there that are trying to raise their own or trying to to build up their own property given them a bad taste not good for anybody i do believe that we can work together i made a challenge to the landlords i'm going to make it again the best policing will be done by you peer pressure is going to be the most effective way of handling and weeding out the bad landlords it's been proven you want some examples you go up to abbey in stratford a lot of ways to go a long way to go yet but it's come an awful long way from what it's been you want to protect your investment protect your investment peer pressure i'm good i have stated two weeks ago and i'm going to make the request again that the on street parking between fair banks and columbia eleven st to to fifteenth street since you can't park in sixteenth anyway get sent to the traffic committee with the restriction of parking on one side only  we have enough we have a lot of rules from the housing side from code and forstmann from just general law they have to be enforced there has to be an open communication which i heard was done partially and evidently it's not being done all over it has to be expanded the open communication with the neighborhoods with the landlords and with the residents that are there if those communications are not open it's going to be an us against them that's got to go away and folks one thing you have to realize we may be talking specifically right now about this area six seven eight square blocks what we're talking about up here is the general city we have to look out  addressing specific issues in this core area we've got a bigger area think about more long richard i do believe that this compromise and it is a compromise  compromise nobody's happy completely happy i should say is the best way that's going to happen for those that have made the investment from a business standpoint and those that have made the investment from a property standpoint police you're please take care of your investment on both sides lot's been said we've been at this one a while there has been a lot of work invested boil it down in numbers six four rather peter's unlike me a couple weeks ago when he was with us and brought up my favorite number in this whole topic in the zero zero tolerance zero tolerance for the issues that were brought forth by the neighbors however sixty four does nothing to address those zero zero to address those quite frankly it could multiply in this specific neighborhood if it is a quality of rental issue we've implemented those tools we've been at implementing those tools for the past few years and staff has those at their disposal if it's issues that these neighbors are talking about in terms of some of the issues everything was behavioral is not necessarily property related parking somebody is driveway and behavior parties behavior it's behavior and we have policing in cleese officers i would suggest that the best policing actually comes from our police officers on those matters and i get your point on peer pressure peer pressure is a quality thing i think that addresses the quality aspect but we were talking about quality we've we've taken care of those things again two years ago we took it up with the whole neighborhood and a group of folks that came together but really really really i believe in my heart sixty four does nothing about the behavioral issues that were brought up by these neighbors and i know brian has some specific ones outside of the whole neighborhood and again i think largely those are driven by behaviors and there's nothing to suggest that it's because there are six or there's too little behavior stop or start i mean we've seen bad behaviors out to people w matter bad is bad and good is good and the numbers don't apply so i can see myself going along with the amendment because it provides a little bit of the economic relief that  think is you know kind of fair in the context of what we're talking about but as a whole i'm still not convinced that sixty four years is now is right move to get at the things that the neighbors are concerned about comment so if you can play that tape back i would just listen to that those are very eloquent what mike said to about the whole city that's a really important thing and where i think we're a little a little askew here is i do think that going from six to four might create some investors who might look at buying rental properties and same boy i just really can't make those numbers work with six it's days for a three bedroom and it's purchased by a single family whole city wide now i do think that to me that's probably one of the stronger reasons for doing this i agree with your behavior comments and that's why if i were if i lived in the which i do live in the second ward when i grew up on one street and i went to hope college and i know these neighborhoods for a moment i'm glad as you know what i would apparently went to a lot of parties that's been well documented but if i did live where and listening to mr trap and mr blunt then i'm bosh and these people who just built was the last time you knew somebody that built a brand new home on an empty lot in downtown holland doesn't happen very often and i listened to what those people said and what they what they were worried about they made this huge investment beautiful new house this is what we want to see him so what i think is missing here on the behavior piece is maybe not zero tolerance i wasn't part of a conversation that happened two years ago where we got neighbors together and whole college people and the police i wasn't part of that i was part of a conversation that took place about a year ago and dean frost office where there w some parents residents who live in the area we're talking about were very clear about what they experienced on homecoming weekend at hope college  and if that were happening next door to me on eleven street where i live over by pine i would have been all over the police too so i think the challenge here is how do we get how do we get hope students and the people who live in the neighborhoods that i think really want to live a hope students because there's a lot of value that some over twenty percent are probably perfect it works really great another thirty percent are probably i tolerate and we do that it's ok but there's probably a fairly good number that just for whatever reason we're not getting our hands around the enforcement piece of this so i had a serendipitous meeting with dean frost we were talking about this he said in the back of the meeting it or two weeks ago and he said he is very willing and i think there's landlords in the room who are very willing to sit down and start talking about i use the term zero tolerance but i have to believe there's ways where when junior is renting a house and throws a party that our hala police department can act in a more consistent way so that we send the message to these good kids who we want to be good neighbors to say you know what you can screw this up once but if you do it twice the consequences are severe and we can just maybe do a little better job of enforcement between i don't public safety as a factor because these are off campus houses but getting the landlords in the room treating the good landlords really well treating the bad one wards really poorly with fines or whatever we have to do to make that town gown livable relationship better something to me the answer is is in that piece it's a very difficult but other than that i agree with almost everything that it's sure would like to think that people who come up in the students but you know there i have to be honest there are times where you were up here saying we had hope college students and we need this housing and we're going to hope and we just like have just sat in the president's office or in the dean's office or some campus  focus group talking about off campus housing and making sure that that is affordable because as you were talking of thing i left it here to represent the people who live in the second ward whether now hope college seniors have affordable housing is really not on my checklist for what i need to be paying attention to i'm not saying i don't care i love whole college i went there it's a great thing i wouldn't change a bit but if there's that kind of issue i'm wondering if the college can have an honest discussion about what we want these kids to live off campus and apparently it's a growing number maybe there's something can be done in that kind of spirit where we can make some kind of arrangement in the college where the city does have to make our residents to take a look at our neighborhood and we had a neighborhood improvement strategy document that we adopted and looked at and have tried to implement in large measure the end there were a few things in there that i think a relevant to our discussion tonight because frankly the discussion tonight in the proposals that are before us tonight flow directly from it and the idea is that ultimately what we are seeking to do is create the phrase ology was neighborhoods  choice where is it that people of all sorts having options choose philip and what we saw in that report and i fully expected someone else to chat  i didn't hook up my laptop here but i'll certainly next week show the images on the screen from that report what we found was in some of the well there was a striking correlation between activities that most of us given a choice would choose not to associate with things like density of weed violations and twenty zero eight which you know is a indicator of property that  well maintained and those indicators happened in the central neighborhood area density of an operable vehicle violations and twenty zero a very striking similarity as to that we had violation numbers density of crime calls again high concentrations in the same areas and even things like density of garbage violations which again are an indicator of folks who don't have a lesser scale these take care of property concentrated in our central neighborhoods then what we took a look at was the question of well what is it about the central neighborhoods is there something going on with the central neighborhoods that suggest  perhaps one of the reasons why we see this continual correlation of things that again people having choices would choose generally not to do to be a part of and it turns out that of all the rental units single family into film the conversion  apartment complex but single family into family conversion units of all of those rentals in the city nearly a quarter of them show up in those central neighborhood now that tells me that we have zero by the way the second place was half of that third place was less than a third so it's not just one is that a quarter one to twenty two percent there's a sizeable drop off in other parts of the city which tells me that we need to to to alter the playing field a bit and that has been what we've been attempting to do now we constantly hear the canard that oh you're saying that renters are bad people and that is just simply not the case but we do have an indication here that when we have a high concentration of single family rental properties in a particular area of our city it has not been a net positive in comparison to other neighborhoods in our city and i think it's our responsibility to take a look at that not to simply say well you know what the damage has been done shrug our shoulders and move along no how you say or you ask perhaps and brother whiteman has indicated that in his mind six to four plays no role into this and i guess i again respectfully disagree with that for and will do so making two points and two points only tonight one is by having a six person limit on rentals it becomes much more financially advantageous for many of these properties to be rental units the not second is that if if the number makes no difference then let's get rid of it altogether if there's nothing magic about ford let's get rid of six let's just open it wide up because apparently there is no correlation at all you haven't finished with this and it is and i have sympathy for hope students i'm hoping to be the father of one in the very near future and out of the shook i'm looking to me for assistance with paying the bills and will think about it but if you went to almost any other am i a school you'd find yourself if you went to k three went to elma maybe two maybe three hard to say how hard hard to see calvin we've heard you know less than six  for those students who live the north side if you live in holland township your three year three even though the zoning in holland township is not quite like our traditional neighborhood zoning that you have here in terms of density the only park township as was said tonight here in five park township or rural township is less than we are in a dense urban setting now so if if you know again if the number is irrelevant let's just get rid of the cap altogether but i just i think that ensconcing for ever the properties that already are at six is only an invitation to ensure that those properties will never again never again the single family homes and it's not just the hope issue it's throughout the city and i think this is the talk about adverse effect we had worse effect of this one i think will be lasting and it will be significant please can i  ask a question or a question that jim and i mean if the discussion still open your mind if numbers are numbers and there's fifty of these units let's say just hypothetically if fifty these unicity why are we prepared next week to add on twenty five new rental uni guess my question is this man do we really think that we are going to affect the number of people that actually rent in this city my answer is yes that's possible rental that's more about concentration so what you're saying is it will not convert into a new rental in our city to meet the demand that's not at all what i'm saying what i'm saying is when you have a high concentration of single family into family single family houses that have been converted to either rental units for one or two families the concentration is the issue it's not them but the fact of the rent and what we do now is we concentrate those rentals in in very specific areas of our city and the the evidence shows that that has not been a positive for those neighborhoods i just don't know that we have anything to show that don't disperse the way that we think that they're going to disperse what does that mean wh he means is it would it means is is there a prototypical type of house that translates to a rental yeah it's the cheapest one possible that can be converted and make the most money on it and so that's what it is to where is that concentration in our neighborhood the more natural kind of my point is that you know my point is saying that does this truly effect that in my point is if you go from six to four and then you have to add twenty five to the mix do you think then it's not if the cheapest ones lie near there where are they going to be acquired in converting do you think that single family residence right now are just going to rise up and sell all their homes peters yes birch yes all right it will be on for second reading and possible approval with public airing at our next meeting which is in two weeks we move down then to fourteen easy five point one my beliefs and gifts city managers office is pleased to announce to report the following gifts when the island gardens received cash donations in the amount of one hundred ninety eight dollars and eighty seven cents the self pressed college fund received a total amount for the softball term and fundraiser in the amount of one thousand eight hundred forty three dollars in one sense with additional two in kind donation gift certificates perhaps eighty four east in the amount of twenty five dollars and buffalo give certificate as well in the amount of twenty five dollars it is recommended that these donations be accepted with appreciation in an expression of gratitude be forwarded to the donors what is the pleasure of counsel motion to accept with appreciation by truly support supported by one i want to publicly thank representative hartmann for all the of the work he's done for the city of hall on the board of public works the concept of on the financing of energy retrofits as you know he was very instrumental in the passage of this bill believe so anyway my main point is that we have people working for us i know their first names and their first names senator yeah i would look forward to working for further as this moves forward in the senate involves potentially improved water quality also potentially some changes and dollars so given some further conversation we had earlier conversation about how i just want you to know that the we're participate there was something coming to you at some point it's my interest that we provide information as to the return on investment should there be increased dollars associated with the city of holland so just wanted to let you know about that as we look into it all right very good questions for the city manager seeing none of them sixteen communications for me this evening the typical stuff which is so good it bears repeating and that is of  course you can find lots of information about the city of holland at city of holland dot com including information about our meetings including information about members of council senior city stephanie clued information about building permits planning zoning you name it we try to stick it there and sometimes even try to put it there so you can find it's a little bit of a joke of the of the system to the city manager and id directors not laughing so much he's working on it in any event the city of holland dot com is your spot for information about this community what's happening in it and the government of the city we have a variety of interesting things happening of course we just got finished with community day this morning there was a kickoff for the campaign to seek an area wide milledge for the holland historic trust and while i was not able to be at that kickoff i certainly have lent my support to it as well as my wife's we think the museum is important piece of this community is history one worth preserving in a remarkable way you don't have to necessarily love an art museum to understand the importance of a museum you don't necessarily have to love the exhibits of holland of many years ago to understand the importance of a museum to a community and the holland museum punches way above its weight class we oftentimes will get people visiting our community who are encouraged to go to the museum smirk and trudge until they show up to set foot in the place and say i had no supported and i think the museum leadership is well suited right now with excellent staff leadership and excellent board leadership to be good stewards of those resources to make the museum not only exists not only survive but to thrive into the future so it hardly has my endorsement and my courage when i do have a couple of items for your consideration tonight counsel one is the resignation of amy haygood from the historic district commission she served as the architect space spot served as the arc of serve unfortunately for us is resigning a wee bit early but i also please to a point for your least with your concurrence bree austin roberts to the human relations commission for a three year term which would expire at the end of june of seventeen and i placed those for you before you for your consideration support supported by whiteman and it is gushing all in favor please say i post same that passes thank you and we are sir paul sure pulling for you and hopefully you can get over the surgery and be back at it with us so we wish our best to share and also as was mentioned earlier live mannequins are our friday night awesome going to be from seven to eight thirty and that is a wildly it attended event everybody loves the live manikin night and at the same time they're going to have the civil war group playing music over by the splash at which is by the new hotel going up and that'll be great in also we have the civil war muster which is all this weekend saturday from nine to nine thirty and sunday from nine to three thirty area that has authentic crafts from that civil war era and that would be another great addition to the whole event and i'm sure that the reactors will love being a part of our community again and every year we get more people committing to come they're bringing cannons in here and horses isn't all kinds of stuff we will be reenacting a couple battles from eight hundred sixty four with the sesquicentennial of the civil war one of them will be the battle the utah creek which is really cool cause benton rotty who lived at that home is the guy that saved the flag of the twenty fifth michigan in that actual battle so that is really cool to be able to watch a battle happen and not have to worry about anybody bleeding from my little mother perspective but it's a great event to bring your kids to and they can really history in a much better way than just a flat screen so it's a lot to be thankful for and a lot to be involved in and a lot to enjoy about our community this weekend question for you do you want to see your city of harlem public servants specifically police officers and firefighters serving you by walking your why yes mike i would well then this coming saturday september twentieth between the hours of eleven a m and three p m is a great opportunity to do just that time of your might i will drive your car or truck down to the it's too many words bring it down to the count park fire station which is addressed to seventy nine collin park drive between the hours again of eleven a m and three p m what's that time again mike eleven m and three p m suggested don't minimum the nation of five dollars and all the proceeds will be going to the harbor humane society so come on down to support a great cause if for whatever reason you can't make it down there you can go on to be able to see the firefighters and police officers out there but you get a clean car of the deal so saturday september twenty three pounds park fire station dirty car be there get it clean item number two another community event talking about neighborhoods and getting together with your neighbors the eleventh of october two times you can get your hands dirty to a planting two on the waterfront two different times from eight to ten or ten to noon or if you want to be there all four hours which i probably will be have at it this is actually kidding aside the last couple years we've had an extremely great turnout there or trying to think how many tools we put in there a lot but it's kind of neat to go there see some people that haven't ever planted a tulip before  get around with them a little bit tell them that they've got to go in a specific way or they're going to grow down you know that type of and we have good camaraderie there's that was a joke guys jay anyway there's refreshments out there you get to learn how to plant tulips and in the spring you get to come back and see your handiwork which is the neatest thing about it if we can keep the the deer away from but again that is going to be on october the eleventh a saturday from either eight to ten or ten to noon and you can find out more information by going to to look time dot com i believe it is and i think we have a link to the city web site if not up but we will shortly thank you all right so my understanding is the firefighters will not be using the high pressure hose to clean the tar off the front of your vehicle or the  another activity coming up this saturday at centennial park from noon to four p m is the end or recovery fastest celebration of those who rode a journey to recovery from various addictions  lots of stuff going on so come down celebrate with those folks all right anything else we do have one item to handle under first reading that can be done by same that passes by the termination of the chair then item c section fourteen dash four point one four related to the rolling units and that would be in the amended version that passed the council motion please remove more thing i forgot about the lake shore st party at washington square this weekend and saturday also from three to nine should be a really cool event sponsored by local first and their great neighborhood commercial districts so come on out and do that you don't have to be home for a minute this weekend there's something going on all the time and also the police and fire personnel that are doing the car wash are donating their time nobody is getting paid for the time that they are spending to get donations for the harbor humane society as out of the goodness of their hearts all right very good anything else all we have love to do the same all right we stand adjourned good night