committee should come to order we will continue the review of the fiscal year two thousand and seventeen proposal this presented by the mayor before we do let us make our noise making you present that which elicits you with your timing for those that have spoken with us before you know that we have three green yellow and red ye you have thirty seconds to conclude amrit means you shall stop with that will last rosemary robbins if you would come forward and share her thoughts with us this morning morning everybody rosemary robins concerned citizen here today at the county building for this meeting we have a four page agenda today i'm going to be expanding on two items on page two of that agenda has to do with water i had an opportunity and acted on it and came down and got a hold of the actual requested legislation and it's very much in keeping with what's put in him see on page t today's agenda and it's looking for loans from the state of hawaii's water pollution control revolving fund for various wastewater projects but the fiscal year twenty seventeen so that's going to be taking us through this next six months and the six months into seventeen so name to that way so i got a hold of the paper yesterday and what is not on the agenda are the specifics of where those places are and how that money adds up we're talking about yes we're talking about money that is up in the millions and the wording is the same that we have been through with other projects this is how much it's going to cost not to exceed we keep hearing we keep reading that and people keep coming back to exceed the money it's some of the stuff from the west maui area the polluted injection while situation up there went from two hundred fifty thousand dollars to over two million certainly it exceeded again and again and again and again and you've got a population out there that's really not kind of trusting anything i know you folks didn't put it up but that's what they've had to live with and that's what they're going to have to support the situation for debt service has been just incredible and it keeps increasing so know that you're in good hands when you're saying we have to stop this process because you've got a population out there that's really sick and tired and broke from trying to be able to do that that money is coming out of tax money to a significant degree they don't have it so perhaps none of us does but we need to make sure that debt service just doesn't continue to rise so part of this in today's agenda is or waste water the second item is for potable water same thing water by which all things by and by water a citizen oh and reality here in hawaii according to the state constitution in certainly when we get our monthly bills it's talking about by which all things find life issue being what kind of life find thank you do we have mulcahy is mrs condit do we have anyone wishing to provide testimony mr chair yes when he was disconnected but they have no one there to thank baby blue coloring there is one request before us it is to consider is small craft producer pub the fee is one thousand dollars plus a percentage adopted this new fee category based on requests from individuals wanting licenses for small craft prob produce a producer pubs put it into seventeen and get started on july first so i'm not sure where the liquor department staff are but they can hopefully answer any questions you might have been doing this what would you know what is the main difference between what we currently have already place in the budget the brewpub versus the small craft producer pub mr boss yeah unfortunately i wouldn't know assist you with your question last question was for like ok we've got lots of other categories why why would they be able to fit into one of those but i don't have a problem with that with the recommendation  wilkie did you work on this for a chance and do you have any comment you could share at this time thank you chair no i do not work on this and no i don't know the difference between a small craft producer  sorry thank you no thank you mr victorian or any questions on this item i wish that have the same question to you with mr white so i'm again i have no problem if the commission felt it was important do get people from the department last week and i'm going to find out you know members we are reviewing this today i'm not asking for any approval or consensus here so again this is more for us to just be aware of what is being presented by the departments mr chair mr bossie thank you i was able to find the liquor commission's amendment to title eight chapter one a one of the rules governing the manufacture sale of intoxicating liquor of the county of maui where has the different classifications and each one of those classifications so it describes the current ones and  the the differences between that and then they also have the proposed one so to answer question brewpub license she has you know may sell malt beverages it looks like they deleted the sh manufacturer not more than thirty thousand barrels of malt beverages and that was placed into the small craft producer pub classification seems to be one of the big differences yes they deleted the manufacturing not more than thirty thousand barrels and then so in the small craft they put in that language that they  manufacture not more than sixty thousand barrels of malt beverages twenty thousand barrels of wine or seven thousand five hundred barrels of hall on licensees premises during the license  me and most of the other provisions are the same of those two categories so what it looks like mr chair from my reading of this is that the small craft producer pub basically brew pub license they actually think you've ruined bruno but now they're taking that brew pub section out and so the brewpubs are now just more like bars and the small craft producer pubs are that ones that actually are manufacturing alcohol and they added these different variations of of you know beverages we consider beer wine of course and then maybe if it's in mr fosse's screen thousand dollars plus percentage fee the percentage fee is money revenue does it sta the funding required to provide for the department's services gets spread out by a calculation and chair wait i'm sure has a better explanation not a better explanation but it is based on gross revenues and so that the fee that you see here the the annual fee is really a smaller portion of the of the revenues generated so it's not on it's of the fee based on everything you sell the way of liquor and i think we over generate money every year so the drug has a requirement for the for some of the is anyone coming from planning department but we have the ministry of officer here from tony parker not sure the director but if we could ask jackie to come that if she could join us please we are not waiting  yes these are additional permits that already fall under this category under this umbrella of all other permits so adding them specifically is just to clarify that these farm plan and flood thank you very much i'm sorry i may be a little disoriented at the moment but is there a way of knowing if these fees are being changed what they were yes i have i think that would be very relevant for us please ok  we're not proposing to change the fees from the current year's rates the one hundred sixty five in f y fifteen those different tears were eliminated in f y sixteen to be one hundred sixty five across the board well with a lot of these most of these permits the amount of work that is done is the same regardless of the valuation of the project questions on the members on this between different departments there are reviewing permit applications and we've had some discussion on the floor about that as well but basically the idea that you know when somebody transmits a permit up cation to us we do an initial review and that based on the original fee and when we find things that require the plans to be revised then you know they have to we submitted back to the applicant to you know their engineers or whoever will revise those plans and then resubmit it back to us and  how to put this nicely but there's been some some thinking that sometimes the applicants consultants are waiting for us to find things wrong with it versus doing a good job  preparing that occasion originally so this fee is just to recover the cost of having to review those applications a assists second time third time and any additional time so that's what this is for but if you just take those professional permit licenses impulse and say these guys don't do good work  people won't hire them to do better work story why don't you restate your question so that the deputy can respond properly to my my question was it right by first started by saying i don't really disagree with the intent but my concern is the degree  of of change that might be needed at what level are you going to trigger that it's a recent middle and subject to an additional fee thank you that's a good  question one of the first things we would do under this under this concept and and i believe that the other building permit reviewing agencies are also putting in similar requests for their fees but the first challenge would be for us to ensure that after our first review we give the applicant a very complete list of everything that is needed what we find right now is we'll tell the applicant oh we need three additional things and then they'll give us back one and then they'll give us another and then they'll say where's my permit and say you still need the third and it's this back and forth that frustrates the applicant frustrates us so the first challenge would be for us to make sure that when we say we need these additional things that that's going to be complete they're not going to come back with those things in the owen by the way we need this that that was that was going to be so that would be the first challenge for us to make sure that our initial review is very thorough and there were there will be some discretion if it's just you know this one she wasn't labeled it weren't we wouldn't just second fee for that but if it's you didn't show the setbacks you didn't show this you didn't show that you know that that's a recent mental and we would be entitled to charge for the second  it's it lends itself to fairly easy money making if if we if you don't give complete answers or if you  withhold exactly you know one or two issues right right and and again that would be our responsibility to that our first response is a is a complete one and also if we do find that there is something else that we missed on the first go around we would charge for that we would try to do what you're describing we we did find that with the other reviewing agencies it really isn't uncommon for us to receive all phrase it as intentionally incomplete work because they will then allow us to fill in the blanks for them i think you heard testimony when you were discussing affordable housing you had one of the i think the the representative from habitat come in and you folks asked why does it take so long to build affordable housing and she said that oh it took us a really long time it wasn't until we had all of the agencies come together in one big meeting to talk about what requirements were needed and their own consultants said oh well we didn't submit complete plans because we knew that there would be modifications needed and we just saw one of the oh my gosh you know we get things that we know are incomplete we didn't think that they were intentionally incomplete and so this would be our way of saying don't give us intention the incomplete things when it comes to building permits things like setbacks and building heights those are black and white they're in the code they're not you shouldn't be doing it so i would agree with that any other questions on this mr coach thank you mr chairman i just wanted to let members know we did have a long discussion with this and  our committee the pre budget hearing thing and i know member way chair weighed in and you both weren't there so it's good that we have the discussion again but essentially the committee seemed to be in support of it both both of you mentioned the consultants i don't know if there's a way we can do this but be nice if this charge could be against the consultant not against that's something they can pass on to the you the councilor thank you chair and i think you'd be very difficult for us to get involved in the agreement between two other parties so it probably shouldn't go there thank you so that you have agreement between two other party isn't a penalty this is a fee based on our costs and expenses related to it's your right thank you it's a dog is a dog chair i think this is the only other change that we've proposed is the registration fee for commercial agricultural structures oh last year the council adopted a bill to allow various types of commercial agricultural structures in the agricultural district and there's a registration requirement for those structures where they need to register with us and provide a list of or several  from mr spence dated march thirtieth of this year commenting on this and the previous holdover from the department and one of the things that mr spence as our director commented was about revisions to title nineteen and there were three tiny commissions for this county  would have an opportunity for reviewing comment has things change since march thirtieth that this committee should continue to review this requests thank you chair  we have not yet transmitted that proposed bill to the commissions for review so i do not believe that those changes would come to the council before you have to approve the way seventeen budget  of these reckon it requested changes to our fee schedule cannot be included as part of the budget because of that when we do transmit the title nineteen changes to you we can also transmit  amendment to our rates and fees to put these changes in at that time if that's what you would like to see i'm sure you folks help give some advice to planning department and director spence what would you comment to the committee this morning on this request since we do not have any do you need to see the correspondence and i think if essentially if the fee isn't authorized to be charged in the code typically we don't charge the fee so it may be the cart is before the horse you  thank you very much department bring up environmental management next good presentation we were looking for a five percent rate increase for the wastewater division good provided the break up of how much of it went for salaries how much of it went to the waste water  category if you look on page five members there's also some put a proposal for you on their monthly use charge nonresidential any comments on this component that the base on our federal mandates that where we're required to fund all of our operation to meet and it's far entire for division as far as all of our facilities and salaries the equipment whatever that whatever it might be and saw based on the increase is due to see ip far replacing our aging infrastructure and salaries due to bargaining unit agreements and on this resulted in a five percent that i think the key thing to do you need to continue to ensure that our community is well aware of is the federal public law that states that the users shall pay for the system it's what the users paying for the system and this why is that it's one of the reasons you come before us to forward adjustments because the user by federal law requires the user to bid for the improvements and maintenance and operation of the system that an accurate understanding of th we've had to pay for mistakes in the past we're going to have to continue to become that mistakes but think things that we've got a kept on a timely basis and so i agree they're they're working hard to keep things here so this is this part of the increases however if you notice in our detailed budget we actually discontinued that service of all things three years now so i think it just takes some type of ordinance or some type of adjustment in our ordinance so that we can get rid of this portion if not then i think it just continues to stay any more it is correct proper prior to this we still have public works to do it for us they would provide the service and then we would pay that we would collect the fee we would reimburse get reimbursed and since then that duty had to pass for two this is the wastewater division and since then we've phased out generally the complaint that we get from the residents is that the private haulers do a better job at pumping out the system the private hole it will suck up the rocks at the bottom which isn't a good thing to do but by doing that they get more of the organics don at the bottom of these these systems so we phased it out and we're  program off of our responsibilities and legislation so actually we could put of zero of them in every block from this category  fourteen point two nine in the moloch only call it so potentially if you were to put zero rates everyone could request it and the charge that waste water could charge would be zero even if we don't do the operation  the operation is still accounted for in the county code so while the it's still provided for the use been choosing not to do it i guess so what we should do is move forward as we should take it out of the county code leave the rates where they are and just and then delete it after we amend the code thank you chair how long has this been going on three years is to me a motor in looking at the history of the question everything it's been three years since we've last had public works do some simple pumping for us hurry up and give us an ordinance t he has to pay the county to handle his waste and so we're just grading the increases through all the services in the wastewater division ok thank you mr both questions it ruins our pumps and stuff so we got a pretty off there yeah that's that was my question is that's harmful to your palms is there a feel we can charge them if they do something like that or i mean because if or if there's rocks in there can be of a separate fee kind of thing because we have to replace the filters and the pumps more often if the not just interesting but that in manholes or what was that are the large pump stations and then if you think a body you have millions of gallons in there of reese wastewater that gets diluted with this you know maybe one thousand five hundred gallon tankers and so then it becomes a lot easier as suspended in that kind of stuff but we also are trying to resurrect our own we do have a septic is receiving station in and that's specifically for that purpose of where we had all the rocks and all this other type of foreign objects it settles all insight that in that piece of equipment first before we pump the liquids and waste share the rate increases that we've had asked for while it's totally doesn't cover our operational costs we the proposals were the basis of the proposal is what we felt that would be more acceptable to the public and at this point historically we've it's been challenging to try and recover all of our costs which results in general fund subsidy to the program so while it came up in  directors in our last operations budget meeting that we had on the six dead we were showing our costs at centrum our landfill of eighty one dollars a ton and yet we weren't asking for a fee that covered that cost and  costs where we appreciate the comments but you know what let's just focus on special handling right now that component twenty four thirty four twenty eight will go to  any questions in this area for the department through to the deputy or the division you have any comments on your proposal for special handling these numbers here are just reflective of the rate that we the rate increase that we're proposing  on page seven this is commensurate with that so the increase that you see coming up here i think it's thirty four thirty one goes from twenty two to twenty so specifically for special handling fees is when we have to do special spotting vehicles coming in with an ordinary law towards things that require us to have them dumped out on the on the ground separate from the working face where we have additional services required there thank you for that cochran christians and so what would that be i mean the stuff or things that are clearly what we normally take it would be seen as of yet because we don't accept seen the but it would be things oh no questions but it's kind of interesting that comment about the kind i have to charge what the market will bear but it certainly makes sense because you know the public really reacts with the reason the fees are so i understand what they're dealing with because if they tried to collect their costs same thing as water you'd be body else people would go nuts i don't know how we do that well i would see this year i don't have a problem asking for the full levy one dollar because you know other than that we have we can we can go with the eighty we know we're going to have to do a general fund subsidy  coach thank you how often do we have situations like this again i mean you said it's best of all my guess what's the revenue we're getting out i don't think it's that thank you and in chair just a comment to what you were talking about as far as if you don't pay for it through this actual cost it's those that don't use those services for instance the people who don't do the refuse collection will share some of the burden that costs there's a lot of people out the grid and i'm not sure on this this specific item but you know people in condos don't have county pick up so they have to pay a separate so it's it's weird the way everything will have to live with the choices they make  anything else some special handling yes certainly we've made a number of just clean up kind of changes here going from up or down basis to a part time basis so it's pretty self explanatory system a little simpler for all the commercial use especially to understand those numbers so those changes were made in addition to that which we wan make mention of right now is that for three components for contract prices that were not known of until just a couple of weeks ago for our eco composting greenwa symbiosis processing at central maui their quote it came in a little higher than what we anticipated in the budget so there are three numbers there that we would like at this time to recommend that they be actually increased the twenty five per ton for uncontaminated green waste that number from the contract price is actually thirty six dollars ton should not be ninety it should be one of three and they were the only better than the current contractor on site out there we feel it appropriate to charge the actual rate that their contractors this is the one that was in our previous operations budget that director stand had mentioned that we did rebid this contract this the original contract was for three years with two one year extensions and the contractor chose not to do the two one year extension because it is equipment needed repairs and so he his expenses were going up so that we rebid the contract and unfortunately was for a short period of time for a two year term as we got questions about and for him to recover that cost in that short period of time elevate his costs and these were the cost that direct stan had mentioned during the operations budget presentation that he did can we still do our requirements and we don't use in this when the no not at this time the greenways come component our of our sludge from our wastewater treatment plant and the federals in greece would be we would have to figure out some way we could it would prefer impact our land capacity because it would have to go to the landfill at that point we'd have to modify our our landfill permit with the department of health to allow us to do that i thi we have more than to wait for the next round if you have more than two questions after the my second my first second one said yeah on the the we went from per pound to didn't we i thought we like three years ago or whatever went from per ton to propound three four but i did to go i seem to recall having a huge discussion on why we went that way oh mr boss just you'd have to take this number multiply by two thousand top two thousand to get the proton rate so i've always thought we was awkward that it was purple i don't recall it ever being pretty we have we had some sort of discussion i'm sure miss bison and mr y i don't think mr guzman or miss could ever were here at the time but i'm pretty sure we had that discussion now might have been another side going from per pound per time that being said if there's a partial time that they charge to the next higher ton or  dried and do you guys have any any sense of what the cost to drive the sludge is which would allow us from our discussions last week to use it as part of the cover  landfill that sounds like a really good idea in the face of these kinds of increased costs how far are we from getting some idea what that what those possibilities might be such high heat so if we were to try to just dry the sludge you know who we can look at the the energy cost so it's going to go up for the energy cost we we haven't actually looked at just drying it we thought this alternative of getting this alternative power using renewable gas in taking the excess heat from such a high heat generating turbin system to use that to dry the sludge so we probably have an idea on how much the sludge drawing component on the infrastructure cost will be from when people submit their proposals as far as the electrical cars that have a check we have to look at manufacture to talk to manufacturers to see how much and it is an added option in the art of people possibly that if there is excess heat then we would take our sludge from our other two weeks water treatment plants and bring it in there i think it's something like eight thousand tonnes per year or something like that we would see there was an added option in there that if they could do that we wanted to see i done i don't imagine it's inexpensive to drive you're talking about water material but for me it just seems like it's better placed in the landfill cover  being mixed with green waste and if you can imagine our waste water site is excited about it but when you look at this sludge combine the biosolids of this in the previous years on the on a two point four million dollar contract wastewater with poly paying about one point eight to two million dollars of that contract for their sludge disposal so for them to be able to reduce that cost and in possibly help reduce some of the cover material costs for the land l we're excited about it and we're in the process of trying to get that are we're in a common question and answer period right now and then next week wolf we'll start putting their up proposals together so it doesn't make sense for us to try to look at the numbers ourselves without just using available power sources whether it's propane or some other method of producing heat to drive you know we haven't really i mean up until disturbed and opportunity came around we really never really looked at a specific leak and so direct to stand has looked at it and i can i can work with him to try and figure out what the specific cost that that's going to be because he has an idea as to the equipment he's seen and he probably has and contacts we can find out what the electrical cost is going to be how much additional cost the former director now is working with the propane company so we can he can probably give  additional questions just two more i think there's kind of combined so we've got this cleaner than mature concrete rubble this four by two by two no larger than four by two by through what happens if it is the if contractors are able to minimize the size of what they're bringing to us is an incentive to give them a better rate if it is larger than that than they're going to pay the the full range for  for n s w so this is just an incentive and the additional numbers you see there below as well for cleaner three material concrete rubble two and a half inch minus as well as the the non high five  crushed glass at two and a half inch minus we do have positive beneficial use at the landfill in lieu of cover material for those products so these are disincentive numbers when we start taking  and just curious if it's the proper grammar etc etc but no rebar whatsoever that mean i mean that i think it i don't know if that could be misinterpreted or whatever i'm not sure it just doesn't match the russian you know what they're talking any questions mr wait just a question of the municipal solid waste number how is the seventy six actually the current charges seventy six dollars i was computed is that based on the cost to to manage all the the tonnage that comes in definitely not that's a number as deputy director me model mentioned earlier it's a general increase that we've tried to ask for you know over the years increasing but the actual costs that we have out there the fact that we don't charge residents per drop off a lot of tonnage we bring in with no revenue so i don't off the top of my head have that additional revenue we would get if we were to add five dollars a truck to drop off those had been talked about in the past but yeah this number definitely does not represent our true costs especially including the thirty years of of closure responsibilities that we have after reaching landfills closed so i don't know if that answers your question exactly my question is is this is your cost to deal with landfill in the seventy six dollars or how does it compare to the seventy six i'm not sure fight i'm not sure finder stand that question exactly what i'm i'm not sure i understand how that how you're committed to the figure that's one i'm a little concerned because we're not we're not charging for residential pickup correct correct so for residential drop off at the landfill no i'm sorry we're not charging for the landfill and costs for all the residential pickup corrected collection system that subsidises well yes right so to what accept at the landfill if you want further detail as far as how much of that is subsidized including residential curbside pick up trash plus are true costs there as well as landfill we can certainly provide that i don't have that often i would appreciate those calculations because my my challenge is that we have we have the commercial hollers to service although all the various businesses and i guess some some private areas i'm not sure about private areas but if we're not collecting from the residential pickup and i'm not suggesting that we should because we all are you know sensitive to the fact that the more you charge the more we're going to have stuff left on the side of the road but i'm concerned that we we may be adding more cost to the commercial haulers and therefore having cost all the businesses and i don't just want to make sure that's a true cost and that's not being driven by the the lack of charge on residential or on our county pickups because if if we're not going to charge an appropriate amount there then that's a an amount that i feel should be a transfer from the general fund so all taxpayers are picking up the tab rather than shifting all the costs for landfill and to the business folks so that's that's i don't i may not be asking the question properly but what i'm trying to get at is what's the what's the fair cost to business if we're not charging for the residential pickup so if you could provide some clarification to that i would appreciate it certainly thank you susan ok mr victory no thank you mr carrol anything else miss a coach actually all that was was just changing the name from castle and cook incorporated to put along the line i guess so there we have a new yorker meet with pool i'm all right i'm not sure if you want to answer this sandy or not but my understanding is that i that name is associated as taking over castle cook incorporated such that the previous agreement that we had is  read this rate is commensurate with the rate we would be charging to try and recover our costs it's a small increase that we feel is polypill by the community  replacement fee for the refuse carts and we're asking for a five dollar increase there and that's commensurate with both our car costs is as well as our handling in delivery how to the sites  when we do replace carts control of the resident we go out and replace those components for no charge this this item here is actually for complete replacement costs for the car to s this information in response to this body in our budget requests we purchased one container loads which contains about four hundred five units per container and the cost of that shipping has gone up and so it recover its our not only our container cost but also the staff time to to deliver these and what damages you know it's damages that generally are due to negligence on the owner of the person account holder whose side if we damage a card for both share in trying to have this special program pay for itself that's why the cost increase in our operations we were asked you know previous directed mentioned in some public venue whe service additional for the special services and i mean thank you for keeping this item in here at all you know it was a big controversial discussion in key hay for that meeting am the dollar amount was tossed out there people bought i and said ok we can live with that now it's a double dip and so i'm not sure how much outreach and education and revisiting this issue with the community has occurred since then and  this a everyone has to be in the program in order for this to succeed or actually roll out because if i'm correct it's the narrows and then there's another area below heat how it's going to affect the community as you mentioned it it's an all or nothing type fee because you can imagine if two neighbors are on different programs so on they're all trash day the first day of the week we would send one trash truck up on their second pick up of the we have to send two trucks out now we have to send one for the guy who didn't want to be in the program and then the other one that wants to be in the program so that would elevate our costs and that would tie up a second truck now instead of the same guy that picked up their trash picking up their second pick whether it's be trash or recyclables so it would elevate our cost even further because now we would need a second driver and a second truck for the second day or for those two pickups and it does cover two routes it's the metals in a portion of the  so it's giving us an idea of what the participation rate of sixty one percent participation rate with somewhere around twenty percent contamination ok so when is this going to be determined whether you folks are rolling this out it's go project goes forward last because it would be energy a project they will have the materials recovery type facility at the front end of their system so all trash will basically hit the floor and they'll use the materials that it undesirable like rocks some of the glass that stuff can be taken out from the floor then it can be pushed into a system that does the materials recovery whether it's an automated system or a manual system that's up to the contractor at this point but you can do you can imagine there's there's many automated systems on the mainland where you are using mag magnets using different weights of materials than it's so automated now that they can recover as much as they can so even the for example at the commercial is that sure why it was mentioning none of that is gone through for recycling at this point so now all of that will be search sort of search for recyclables in that that trash also so we're looking at that  this this project to help increase the amount of material that gets diverted also for for you know markets that are profitable because you can imagine right now let's see you know all the glass is a wonder that you put in there  class market i mean who wants to get nine dollars a tonne when you deliver it all into the main it cost us three hundred three to get it there it when we get a ton of glass to the mainland it's to give you nine dollars so that's why we have it in our fees we're trying to keep the glass here to try and get it crushed up and try and use it for alternative daily cover in some manner so it'll be the vendor who will look at those markets and see which ones he can pull out ok just have to check with the union on that because it's the one driver that does he for example if the molly metals in the small portion of why is the monday to monday there is the route then his tuesday friday route is the northern while section so if you make a change in that that agreement because right now it's all about three can plan for those two routes we'd have to consult with the union to make sure that they're ok that we have like you say one one of his route to be three can and the other one being a different traditional style but we can we can look into that just curious but the converse of that is it seems like in the last time we talked about this when you're up here that the higher compliance was actually in the the nine mil he knows area yes and the lower compliance was not we'll have that information for you in the response the chair sent us yeah i'd like to get that sooner rather radical i need to bring it to the people in those people and say look if you want this than do that you know comply for crying out loud ok thank you way if you could provide us with an updated cost breakdown of the additional service i think that would help mr couch let us make a decision on whether it's appropriate to increase it or not which if you're kay we can  into the requests that we have do not want to combine it so that thank you you don't need to double your efforts and we can get it because we are going to be coming close to crunch time matter i think it would be very good if all the members were to get this so i will forward this to you and you can disseminate it is very important for them to see what internationally and nationally is going on with recyclables i think they're going to have some a lot like wastewater who was here a short time ago we are obligated to match our expenditures as an enterprise fund with our rates and fees that's by county charter says our accounts shall be kept separately from the general fund so our rates and fees are built to match our match revenues with expenditures and also match revenues with future expenditures what we've done this year is have a set of rates and fees that try to do that taking into account current expenditures plus our proposed expenditures including debt over the coming years so that is the reason for some of the increases you see will be more than happy to answer any questions on any of those details thank you members thirty four seventy five starts on forty seven to forty eight i will allow any questions regarding the rate support of what is proposed what here is of course as we know a very important commodity without it nothing happens we continuously try to say we need better more water  we need more availability we need infrastructure and as we all know this is not going to fall from heaven we're going to have to pay for it and so i think these increases are very modest based on what we need and  ok thank you i'm about as close as i care to get to it yeah anyway some of the percentage increases seem a little bit high but i'm not prepared to offer any alternatives at this point and this is the cost of keeping it going we still have to deal with the cost of a new source so this is nothing new this is what mr taylor has been telling at least me for five years and you know most of us for five years i mean this is nothing new so i think we committed to it four or five years ago and i think we should stick with that thank you thank you mr cochran thinking chair thank you department full cause all at once is definitely not be acceptable and so we have to do it gradually as best as possible and so this is where we're at now now thank you for the opportunity to look through this chair the agriculture rates have a a very small increase i think as everyone is aware we try to keep agricultural rates as low as we can the first two tiers matched the general rates first two tiers recognizing that most people have a house and so everything beyond that drops to a a much below cost charge so we are continuing that and as you see with the water shortage rates we're continuing the policy that the councils adopted previously saying when there is a water shortage you want to try to limit the impact on agricultural users who need it most during that time did you say that one of your correct that is our that is our assumption that's not my understanding of  a real quick question for you mr taylor is there or hasn't been any talk about having where if the person is just having agricultural use there is no dwelling on the parcel or parcels in question that you would go straight to the dollar ten rate and just be using that rate and nothing else has that ever been looked at or or you've just assuming that most everyone has implement what we would really like to do in the future is have that are basically in the in series so that we read both meters within our billing system we can automatically deduct one and whatever was being used for ag would just be that one dollar and everything not being used for ag would be regular rates would be invisible to everyone we would just drive by read both of them automatically the calculations would be done if we could change the ordinance we think that's the best way to go forward we are not capable of doing that right now based on the customer service and billing system one of the benefits we could get of having our own customer service billing system is that we'd be able to implement that with the support of the council and that would probably resolve most of these issues ok  a reason for such a big jump on that i know it's a nice round number you know seventy five to a dollar but that's a thirty three percent increase  was it was lower last year these are some separate systems that have that we operate that are non portable i don't know that we have exact breakdowns of cost of exactly what it cost to serve though we do believe that they're getting water at below the cost of of service still yet yes this is this would be water that would go through the dual line if there were that's one of them that if they do a line was ever put in service by the state that would be right under the state not under us we owned some systems where we deliver non potable water right and so on any given year the costs are very very low but when we have to replace a pipeline all of a sudden what they paid for the last ten years doesn't come close to covering that so over the long term looking at  infrastructure replacement it's still very far below cost ok thank you thank you jerry thank you any comments on this component mr taylor no mr chair no additional comments thank you any questions members let's move to the restoration charge it's a real vision of taking as well as under insulation charges are recommending some adjustments to the fees component so mr keillor any comments on restoration charging installation charges i have no specific comments other than if  there are any questions misho can answer that we have tried to true these up to actual costs and different details were done by staff based on actual expenditures was that after twelve p m just due to do overtime charges chris is certain after hours i guess in a sense and now you're just doesn't matter what time of day or night and it's a separate across the board recommending preparing adjustments service letter o proposals on page fifty index b no mr chair other than to say these are fit into the same explanation is you can see that staff tracks these and they're trying to trip them up and i think they've really done a good job tracking the actual costs and trying to present a true cost of what these services cost a department thank you director and his adjustments on  loaders so some is the case here depending on what kind of a benefactor in the size of the loader popc ads various trucks dump trucks peterbilt various sizes a i page fifty three you notice that the department is recommending a adjustment under material unit costs if you so for those that have been with us for a while most of these i things i things you fifty four is a continuation of various reports and fifty five materials are yes thank you you know the questions for the director of missile on this fifty four fifty five questions on page fifty six members page fifty seven water source development fees you notice that they have presented the proposal for your consideration also they have added a component under fixture units for single family yes thank you mr chair there are three distinct policy recommendations here in the changes the chair just went through and you just go through them one of the time the first is the ratio between the items source transmission storage so putting the numbers aside for a second you'll see that the ratios are changing in water resources committee we've we've shown a number of times our twenty year plan which has different  different components of projects of storage transmission source development etc so what we did is we looked at that and we took the that ratio of what percentage that was source and what percentage was storage impr what percentage was distribution improvements and we took that ratio and tried to apply it to these three columns so regardless of whether or not their support to raise or lower the actual fee we think the ratios should be trued up to square with actual the reason that's important is developers come in and let's say they're building their own tank well they won't pay this the storage portion or they're building lines so they don't have to pay the transmission forces pushing or they're building a source but they're using our lines and our tanks in which case you know be the source portion so having those be more true it up is important to us again to transfer for real costs we all the regular person just paying is going to pay the same amount regardless of the ratios these larger developers are only paying a portion develop depending on what they're contributing pay different amounts so that's wife's truing up truing them up was something we wanted to do and that's the first part of the second i sure you all notice and probably kion is the doubling of the five meter water system development feed the other the other ones were modified in the past most of the  the water system development fund which has about four and a half million dollars in it right now we're using about four million of it to balance the budget this year so it's that portion that is really under charge for what it cost to serve so looking at long term fiscal stability we we don't see how to balance a long term budget without bringing in more money from a water system development funds co i was in the same  boat their actual costs vary somewhat r s they thought their real cost was about twenty two thousand dollars but politically they couldn't push that so they raise their is from i think forty six hundred to around fourteen thousand so because we're very similar geography to co i we have very similar needs and the costs are about the same so we've talked about this in a in the years past but we're asking again we think it's the best way to balance long term revenue versus expenditure and further anyone who doesn't get service never has to pay this you've got something we haven't talked about when you come to the fifth floor and write your check it means we've already been successful for you we've already built something and now it's time to pay your fair share if we don't succeed and we don't get anything done for you well you never paid us so this really sets a standard saying if we're successful the money will be there and if we're not well this money isn't there no one has to pay it so we think it's the best  to pay for growth and the final the third piece is at the bottom the fixture units when honolulu board of water supply gave a talk to the water resources committee a few months ago i know the council members were really excited by the way they use their water system development fees rather than charging a set price for a meter they look at each fixture unit which is a toilet has a certain number of fixed units a shower etc etc and they just charge for how many plumbing fixtures you have and the department then decides what size meter you should get so you as an applicant you don't need to worry about what your size meter is and you say here's what i'm building a new pay your fair share we've asked for in the operations budget one hundred thousand dollars to do an analysis to convert us to that what we want to do is sort of whet our toes in that by saying for each size meter for residences these smaller meters five days three quarter and one we're basically saying we're ok if people have twenty five percent more fixtures than we've been allowing is long as they pay for them and that's what this is it's dipping our toe in this new methodology of letting people pay for fixtures so here's what it would do someone in south central mali who needs just a few more fixtures to do their ohana rather than having to upsize from a five piece to a three quarter which has much more fixtures than they need they can just go by up to eight of them and they can they don't need to pay the whole cost of a three quarters meter the meter this is also going to help some people in the upcountry waiting list there are a number of people in the upcountry meter list who have let's say a five a centimeter but they want to do a hot or an extension and they don't need they're waiting on the list for a three quarter inch meter but they only need you know seven more fixture units this would allow them right now to come in pay this fee get those extra seven and not wait for their turn on the list it's not going to help everybody and we're not trying to sell this as you know this will solve the upcountry neither of us problem but there are people that it will help and so it continues are our sort of approach of trying to help everyone help people on the meter list there is no one magic solution but this will help x number of people so those are the three distinct policies that are in this one paragraph and that's how they fit together thank you m meters first of all i want to think that department for coming up with some recommendations on the fixture units we have heard over and over in water resources committee people come and testify about their frustration over that and i'm very excited that we're asking for that study and we're also putting this into i read symphonies if we cleared it i think it's really going to be helpful you know anything that can help folks that are struggling to get off of that upcountry meter list i personally want to facilitate and i know many of the members also want to get that taking care of when it comes to the actual cost of of the meter you know nobody wants to raise anything and we know this is very very controversial and we went back the last time substantially and so here we are now trying to go forward again and the doubling of course is always kind of scary but if we decide not to double i would certainly hope that we will increase that we have to this is where we get the money to help us from using the credit card you know mr taylor is very concerned about our borrowing capabilities and we want to be sure that in the next four years we don't reach the max on the credit card just so we need money to come in so that we can pare bills and it's a once once in a lifetime and you make this investment and  yours and so i you know it's very hard to recommend this but i can't speak against it now that i've been educated about the economics of running the department it's really difficult you know it's a tough thing to do and it takes money and in my opinion either we're going to put it in the water rates which is where there is those who get it pay for it or we're going to have to put it in the general fund then figure out how to do it so it's it's a rock and a hard place  something that we've professed for many many years i know mr taylor has been in front of us a number of times while i was the chair of the want to research community profoundly trying to sell us on this idea and i think the reality is when we see the mounting debt that you know you can't keep paying peter if paul has no money to pay and we and i think this is what it's coming down to yes i know this hurts you know yes i know prom people are going to say it won't you know this makes it very difficult for me to build my house but the other side of the coin is we need some kind of increase here so that we can continue to develop watch sources this county's been very negligible in that respect we have done nothing  mr white thank you chair could you think you've shared this with us in the past but could you give us the number of meters that have been issued in each of its size over the last five years or so you don't need to do it now but if you can provide that to the committee and also i'm wondering how do you i don't know at the top of my head or even if i could look it up what does good water meter what is the average usage of those meters and how do you take that and calculate the charge first source for example  are every so often we have a rate study done and essentially what this rate study consultant does is take all of our internal numbers and looks at the costs and looks at the usage of exactly we are talking about you know how much are these people with i don't think we have more than one or two six inch meters but how much water people using on average they crunch through all those numbers and they try to come up with a mathematical spreading of the costs for your monthly service charge plus your usage cost you know these kind of things and mathematically spread it as per usage so that's where the ratios come from and then in between those years that we have those things last time we did it we had them give us sort of a light computer program in excel format that the physical office or an assistant disk officer use basically those same ratios to make minor adjustments between rate studies so that's the point of the rate study is to look at all the numbers and crunch through it and come up with a fair share of mathematically so these calculations are derived from the rays thirty the calculations on the yellow green chart that i've shown you a number of times we added up all the costs in the green section which are all the cost for source development and new transmission new storage etc to support growth we divided that cost by the number of people who would serve and those numbers of people were defined by the general plan growth projections so we came with that volume and then we used if i recall the same ratio of meters that we have now if for example seventy five percent of the meters are three quarter or five days and x percent or we use those same ratios and spread those costs to those ratios and that's where we came up with these numbers so it was a based on growth projections in the general plan based on existing meter distributions and based on the cost from our twenty year infrastructure needs assessment and we just crunched all those numbers so what does a what is your average tend ok i can give you a number breakdown as of january twenty sixth when we had a total of thirty six thousand one hundred seventy six meters thirty one thousand one ninety four about eighty six percent are five eight inch three quarter inch is about seven percent or twenty four hundred one inches three percent or about a thousand thirty nine one and a half inch two percent seven forty  eight two inch six hundred twenty nine or one point seven percent and then three four five in three four six and eight is about four about it well the total of the large meters is four percent like one hundred in one is three inch forty six is four inch we have ten six inch and only one eight inch ok so for example  i don't know that off the top my head i mean i did run some calculations off a one million gallon a day well a number of single family houses and i have that with me but to go and calculate six inch off something i know that you have the what is our so just for reference because houses are mostly what we talk about a million gallon a million gallons a day is six hundred ninety four gallons per minute so assuming everyone uses an average of six hundred gallons a day that's one thousand six hundred sixty seven homes except people use that evenly use more at certain times of day and use more in dry times of the year so there is what we call peaking factors which tend to be one point five or two thirds  so when you play both of those a season on a daily you end up with only forty four percent of the six hundred ninety four gallons spit pre date are only forty four percent of those homes so a million gallon well supports five seven hundred forty homes so at twelve thousand six hundred dollars per meter that comes to about nine point three million dollars so if you just imagine if we build a well for nine million dollars and we can charge a twelve thousand dollars home that breaks even the fact is developing a well with electricity and site development and cetera et cetera cost more than one million dollars so even at twelve thousand dollars a meter we're not covering the actual cost of development so and that should scale at the same level as you get to three quarter inch meters in one inch meters and so on and so forth that's why we're very certain that even at the fees proposed here they're on the far low side not the too high side and we're still going to need everyone to pitch in with higher rates to help subsidize this so it's really this calculation that shows that we're in that we're on the really low side on these you know when you talk about this   at that we have wells that have just come online we have more being dug now i think over the past five years i've been director we've been drilling wells in central maui we've done one in honna we've got quiet cetera so and i seem to recall in our conversations that this actual fee for the five eighth's inch should be around twenty two came we're trying to slowly get there that still an accurate our proposal is to never get there are proposals to is to keep the cost for meters below the actual cost and subsidize and have everyone help subsidize the with down to six instead of the fourteen there was a concern about affordable housing how is this going to affect affordable housing and if it is going to effect can can we set up some sort of subsidy fund for those that are having an issue that we can subsidize some of the cost but overall i think there'd be more market  purchase of these as opposed to the affordable purchases so if i may i think i'm here to question just one how will it affect affordable housing into could we subsidize them for people in  d i've always advocated thinking i think subsidizing people in need is probably a good idea and that's really a policy up to the council that i would think personally be a very good idea as far as the concerns that it affects affordable housing i think we all know everything that adds a dollar to affordable housing that's a dollar or two for housing it's all to share what my counterpart from co i you said when this came up at the realtors and the contractors association a public meeting when he had to answer that question on the there are increase from forty six hundred forty thousand and i'll blame mr psyche from co i department of water supply for what i'm about to say so in front of a room full of angry contractors and real estate people saying this is going to increase the price of homes he said like most engineers today he came up a little pie chart he said the average price of a home inquired about four hundred fifty thousand dollars he said a fourteen thousand dollar system development fee is about three percent so he said we're department that's losing money on every transaction we're taking a loss on these and we don't make a profit and it's about three percent of the cost and facing the realtors he said you guys are making three percent just for pushing paper he said contractors you guys are making more than three percent on what you're doing he said why are we charging three percent of the cost of the house and taking a loss being  price that house are expensive and i just thought that was such an eloquent answer that i really have nothing better to say than what he said do a lot of water state water revolving fun purchases and general obligation bond purchases that this if we don't keep this up at a reasonable rate our debt service is going to exceed our income but that i hear you say that came from the water system development fund and it almost empty the water system development fund it's almost on the debt service this year and gray twenty two percent is debt service employee benefits overhead debt service is about five million dollars but we've got seventeen and a half million in the upper left in dark blue of borrowed money so you figure if we keep doing this year after year and we have the same budget every single year and even if costs don't go borrowing seventeen million dollars even at low interest rates is adding at least a million dollars a year in debt service so that's adding a million dollars a year to that twenty percent rate call it one or two percent our debt ratio right now is about fifteen percent ok so just imagine that's going up sixty percent seventy percent center i'm not exactly sure where this council feels a maximum debt ratio is probably in the range of twenty to twenty five percent so if you project forward five years and we keep doing exactly this budget every year to do that if we're borrowing seventeen million a year the debt ratio is creeping up from fifteen percent sixteen percent eighteen percent closing in on that point we can't borrow anymore and we're balancing it with cash but we only we don't have that much cash left so as soon as we're able to fill that nine percent cash with cash which is just a few years from now we won't be able to support any more of this budget any longer and if we reach that debt ratio where we can't borrow anymore i don't even know how we would even continuous e a p program so it's not this year it's the fact that we're as a member of i said earlier we're putting more on the credit cards we're spending down our savings account to balance it and as soon as we can't borrow anymore we won't be able to move forward and we're projecting doubts three to five years away depending on how that yellow section electricity and drought and some of the fixed costs go up so we are probably within five years of know a real financial conundrum unless we stabilize the spending versus the borrowing versus the d thank you and i guess hopefully we all remember that when it comes time to to address this in decision making thank you thank you chair and on page fifty seven the fix your unit section the this meter size than as is included with fees that included with fee for example the five eighth's inch thirty one that's fixture count thirty one yes for cochran what that means is the five essential meter that you that somebody would buy with the cost up above includes thirty one fixed rate and what this says is for three hundred eighty nine dollars each they can buy up to eight additional fixture units for a total of thirty nine each so the eight that maximum eight units they can get will be charged at three eighty nine per year that's correct ok ok i was just trying to figure out how to read the numbers thank you very line in general molly if i'm correct those are really spreading out the usage so that we could close down shaft thirty three and other sources that were they're actually to do two things there first to replace the aging shaft thirty three but also a report that was done a while back and says that if we spread out the pumping based on some new u s g s studies the prefer sustainable yield and our share could go up perhaps a half million or million gallons so it's the kind of thing where we have more installed wells then we're allowed to pump out of the aquifer so by spreading them although they're not new source if we can show that we're having a lower impact on the aquifer and state water commission will raise the sustainable yield that's the same as building a brand new well it's just more source for us so that's the purpose is dual is twofold well because my statement earlier about music stores being developed was exactly that so the subsequent question i don't want the public to get confused that we're actually building new sources when we're in reality we're spreading it out and trying to heighten the amount of source that we had that exist at this point in time so that we actually have more use from the same source am i correct you are correct and the term we've been using for the past couple of years on what you to tack on to miss cochran's question when you say fixture units it doesn't actually mean fixtures is that correct because they believe one type of fixture could be two or three units is that right that is correct and although you may not realize this you voted on this by when you've adopted the uniform plumbing code the uniform code has a chart in there that says a toilet has x fixtures and a shower at as why fixtures and so the county of maui certification so enough talking about vessel vacations whether we're happy to reschedule the department i believe we just relocated this within the rates and fees and so we're just trying to find that section on page eleven hi this is marcy sort of on the budget office at the bottom there is also an verbiage  if i'm correct removed from three to five zero to three to eight to the bottom of the piece that's what they did that's worth it was listed twice i believe and so now it's that's where it's going to be on the ok i got it thank you chair council members in the budget office felt that this was not considered a rate and a tax so we kind of wanted to just delete that we did show in the appendix so we have it listed in appendix c to be made a part of the budget ordinance thank you members and questions on this component this actually was this fiscal year sixteen budget amendment and it just got approved earlier in the month of march on march eighth i believe so it's ordinance number any questions members you need on this component let's move to the middle of the page department of finance go for one account thirty six three zero this was also a concession fee that we decided to move as we move as well as they all go through the competitive bid process adjustments any comments yes chair thanks and good morning members david good here part of public works director and as i mentioned i think in our operations budget we are looking at amending fees related to construction permits usually can subdivision in grading type permits this is in cost and conjunction other and as for program and looking at the cost related to that program the changes will be describing analyst work with development services ministration d s a to look at their hours that they spent on all types of permits and also the nature of these fees and when they were last amended the driveway permit fee was set in two thousand and nine at thirty dollars for residential driveways and sixty dollars for commercial so it's about eight years old and what we found is that we're spending on average about an hour and a half of staff time per driveway a total cost free of about sixty dollars an hour it makes more sense to charge that rate which be about ninety dollars and there's really no difference between a driveway in a commercial so we're looking at one fee ninety disrepair that affects the sidewalk portion that the public would traverse over which is their responsibility we've had some owners fix those we've also worked with applicants of their doing work on a particular cross slope so we use we do you realize a building permit process to analyze existing driveways and how to reconstruct it is needed analyzed again the amount of time spent in a very tremendously from a small project to a large project in generally the smaller projects knowing we spend less time proportionally spend a lot less time proportionally than the large projects sometimes larger projects can really accumulate a lot of staff time on it so we looked at the fees were lated to the size the permits that we we generate and we found that we've been doing about two hundred permits per year and about over slightly over one hundred of about one hundred ten are in that zero to five hundred cubic yard range those are smaller permits and in the range of five hundred to ten thousand we issued about seventy terminates and only about eighteen or twenty above ten thousand cubic yards but still we spent a lot of time even proportionally more time on those larger projects so we to ten thousand would be three hundred dollars for the first five hundred cubic yards then twenty five dollars for every hundred thereafter again it seems to match the couple percent of the actual contractor cost and then ten thousand cubic yards and higher as a much higher first time fee this is again to reflect the amount of time that we spend on this and sometimes we've even hired lately outside consultants  and the cost per additional cubic yards actually was before eighteen dollars for every thousand we're not on an eight dollars per every one hundred that still  percentage of the actual construction cost is only a couple percents we felt it was reasonable from the applicant side in terms of total cost but better matched our cost and effort chair white the actual cost of processing is pretty minor against the field time so on a large site that could go on for a year we may have an inspector there just about on every day basis for small amounts short amount of time but including revenue that we're generating compared to the the cost of all of our involvement and in the field work and the processing i'm just trying to get a sense of how much work are we recoup in all of our costs over fifty percent of our cost or twenty five percent of our cost there is this is obviously it's important to have them out of the field to miss cochran brought up on a number of occasions concerned with  lack of supervision in some cases but i'm trying to get a sense of just how much were recouping of the actual costs there you know i'm not sure the actual costs and it's not one hundred percent  our staff for instance the same inspector that would take a look at a large grading project might be checking out a driveway on the way to the job so that inspectors does it is multi tasking in terms all these different types of permits so trying to estimate their total time is probably about fifty percent of their time is on grading activities and then we have the sports staff back in the in the office engineering staff and clerical staff that runs out i'm going to guess we might be at fifty it is sixty percent but i have to run some numbers we're no we're getting we're getting closer than where we were with this fee not being touched since two thousand  maybe hour and a half but me a little bit more last time this fee was an active was in two thousand so it's fifteen years olds were proposing to double it which more accurately matches our our costs handle all the small applications would stay the same larger applications opposing to change it to four hundred dollar fee plus one hundred dollars per watt it's currently two hundred fifty made sense to increase those fees we were sensitive to the smaller applications knowing that especially the up country meter lists you know the council recently looked  who charges the revenue increases estimated be somewhere around fifteen thousand dollars per year to the county this is the subdivision instruction plan review fee that we are members any questions for the director on his or proposal regarding subdivision process and requests and the vehicle registration wait wait fees last year we amended the fuel tax from sixteen cents to eighteen cents which was putting it back to where it was i believe in zero eight or zero nine when it was reduced by electric vehicles without touching the fuel tax it will steadily declining and it might be a percent a year depending on a lot of different variables but those projections are pretty much holding true  vehicle weight tax can increase as the number of vehicles increases and the electric franchise tax which had been pretty consistent about ten point seven million dollars per year we just got our payment for this last year it was eight point eight million dollars so now electric revenues when they go down our numbers go down so it's interesting i mean every time a p v panel goes up and someone does a net mit energy metering contract at two half percent of their not paying out trick is also not coming here so our roads are taking a hit with every net energy metering contract that goes out which i find kind of interesting so so what this means is that you know fuel tax is is the best nexus between use of the road wear on the road and paying for those improvements and we feel that this increase can and is is justified especially in light of the declining my electric revenues and i'm not sure what the projection will be for next year budget office may have that but  i know folks know a lot of pay more for gas but personally i'm comfortable with it when i know that extra nickel is going to go on the road and i feel that there's a good direct correlation there and for those reasons that's our proposal and just as a quick aside actually related is that the bio diesel number that shown here is eleven point five cents per gallon exactly half of the twenty three cents and the reason for that chair's that that's mandated by h r s so the biodiesel lobby was successful in getting the legislature to visit century tell the counties don't charge more than half of whatever you charge for regular gas for bio diesel even though it's the same wear and tear but that's a i don't that's considered an unfunded mandate or partially funded mandate but it's it's a mandate nevertheless here thanks thank you director i appreciate your challenges and appreciate your proposal before us we are very keenly aware of those demands upon highway funds to fund many requests under transportation but the  this proposal and i'm like you and would be happy to explain to the community where we will be putting that extra revenues on their behalf so that they can then appreciate the improvements from additional revenues in this program area ms cochran any questions you know chair his face no questions again you know nobody wants to pay more but i can tell you that probably one of civvy well really i have nothing more gratis if the fact is somehow someway that the very near future we have to get these alternative energy cars especially electric like some council members d ice part of this program do because they do the same where if they're on the highway i'm looking at just in the way tax for those vehicles thank you mr chair appreciate it mr white stick a question i don't recall whether this that usually one cent increase in gas tax translates to about six hundred fifty thousand seven hundred thousand dollars in additional revenue ok sammy gallons are sold so we generate a little bit more that we're losing on the other side now but you're you're you made the comment that it's all going to go to the road but we all know that a lot of the money from the from the highway funds going to support the buses as well so are you making a commitment that you're going to put all of this towards road certainly agree with what mr the you know said we do need to deal with the electric vehicles or the hybrids or the plug in electric of which i have one so it's  it's something and i don't i'm not sure the weight tax will do it it's the it's the amount of miles driven on the roads and i think you know we talk about i mean we're not there yet and i'm not going to commit this county and dish in all capital improvements to get the us censored in no no i wouldn't be really did i think we had talked about this last budget is you know per mile you know when you pay your registration and do a profile thing you know just in a domino reading for each year or somehow break it up between the years but i think it needs to be talked about whether it's not in know unless we do i mean japan goes by engine sizes too and that's why all their license plates are different colors and in the new engine same u p a a different tax and a bigger engine the more you pay  so i just that's that's something that we probably need to discuss sooner rather than later thank you richard but you know that every district has its own unique characteristics of a knife or a resident to and this may be off the ball off the wall request but i really think this is relevant to what we're speaking towards i would like to get we will get information from their dealerships here in ma we drew them to the state dealership what is the types of vehicles that are being sold in the last year or two because it's my understanding from we project red bigger vehicles s u v s have tremendously increased as far east feels basically due to the fact that gas prices have dropped tremendously so i'd be curious to see that because that also makes in my mind you know more relevant those big s u v s i don't care how fuel efficient defeat more gas specially if you know the other questions for the director on this component members everything that we have one last adjustment by the department that's on the bottom of the page that is the director's request regarding subdivision construction subdivision construction plan review filing fees right so you have this one this is the the road construction plans are come along with some subdivisions so this one know this was set in two thousand and nine at fifty dollars per lot so you magic have you know a twenty lot subdivision and all of the road plans and need to be reviewed and it's a thousand dollars so it's one that i would say do you want us to look at it i don't have a problem read above under building permit plan review fee have thirty dollars for additional reviews required by changes additions or revisions you want to just that to sixty or  has an asterisk after it yes which then says we can also charge the toll hourly cost whichever is greatest so it is definitely greater than thirty per hour by time you add in all the fringes and  construction plan review so some subdivisions can just be a division of land with no related road improvements drawn existing street both law to have road frontage so there be no construction plans submitted or reviewed of health reviews and months all those approvals are garnered when we can issue the plans and finalize a subdivision so somehow the visions have construction plans some don't ok so how does how does the amount of work that you're doing on a road construction plan compare to done by water looking at the water distribution lines i'm just trying to get a sense of but it's a ten lot so do we just we're just taking it from five hundred dollars up to two thousand so i'm just trying to get a sense of how much  an individual could be paid to the various groups that are reviewing it director yeah i'm not sure i'm not sure if the other departments charges well fire might but i'm not sure if water is a waste water do so for us we review what drainage plan and i would say either a narrative on how they plan to handle it there be changes calculations they also look at the road plan in terms of the geometrics of the roadways the design the roadway signs striping interconnection to the other roadways so the mt engineering that's looked at it varies by subdivision but it can add up and you know the rates for engineers all in with ranges everything is probably close to one hundred dollars an hour so it's not inconceivable that you know fifteen twenty hours between all the various disciplines and any recent metals you know this is normal for the kind of you know the only concern is that the these fees in my recollection never been ever been geared to a full recapture and a lot of what we you know what we ask you to do in the review process is to is to protect the rest of the public from people doing stupid stuff and so i'm i'm just i'm just  and comfortable with what's kind of fair and what should the what should we as taxpayers pick up because it's it's protecting all of us at the same time i think we don't take lightly we want to make sure that it's justified and that it's reasonable and that it doesn't you know put people out of business or cost jobs right thing like that but we also want to make sure our costs are are in line and kept down whenever possible  pter three point zero four and now we thought that this might be of assistance to you as we review the department's proposal with that the rector any comments regarding a so this time out it to be director savage kind of go through that since she's familiar with the code changes thank you thank you that afternoon chair and members as so starting off on page twenty one there's really just minor changes to the code reference for the tables that will be shown on the following pages and then the other consistent adjustment you'll see throughout the document is anywhere there were the different types listed so what was previously type one type two type two are type two c c d type three type four and type fives those will be removed and the actual  verbiage will be in those in place of those see that with the key deposit removing the types and adding in language for all permits except government permits for key deposits and then a minor change  where the fifty yard key deposits automatically withheld that permit holder fails to pick up their keys during part permit hours and a park's employee must distribute keys or open a facility and of that then again with just the code references changing reference thirteen point zero for a over in the county code column it might be just a nonstandard change but just want to make sure you did the changes under key deposit fee but you didn't that noticing that mr quest we appreciate that there be no further questions on this page that's good to twenty two and twenty three  definitely looks like there's a lot of movement one of the things to i think keep in mind through this process is there's no adjustments to the actual dollar  assessed the columns have changed locations which is why it shows everything being deleted from one column because all of those amounts were moved to a different column but the actual dollar amounts  for the different kermit types there's no adjustments in those dollar amounts so moving across the top you'll see there's no really just mints in the numbers again the government permits were true place the type ones are all still zero dollars for permit fees the second category used to be the type two which was department sponsored without revenue and again those did not have any rental charges as well for organizational purposes this is become the community class column so this shows all of the fees that are moved over for community classes the next column over used to be the community class column so as you'll see the numbers that are deleted from the third column are the ones that are written into the second column i do want to point out that there is  down at the ball fields which is the seven line from the bottom this is the only one where there it was incorrectly placed in la year's rates and fees as zero dollars and it was supposed to be two dollars for the community class so that's the only one you'll see where a number is actually different than the number that was being deleted from the table so again the third c is now the general use column which was previously the type three s so you'll see the numbers being deleted from the fifth column over which used to be the type three column again are the those numbers being deleted or the same ones being inserted under general use the next two columns the fourth and fifth fall under the department sponsored category which these were again previously the co sponsored events with the revenue which used to be the type to r and then just co sponsored events so in the fourth column you'll see this is what used to be again the type two so what was deleted from the second column under type two will be the new numbers you see being entered into this department sponsored event column the next column over is department sponsored event with revenue this used to be the type to our so the column prior to that into our again you'll see the numbers being deleted from this are the ones that are being entered into the event with revenue c the next column over was previously listed as type for now nonprofit political fundraiser this column remains the same as far as numbering goes falls under special events and the next c n and which is the last column under the permit fee component is adjusted to commercial so this is the commercial special events and again no adjustments in this fee for these fees as well a couple of notations you'll see that there's asterix next to general use which is the third column and that first ass tricked at the bottom of the table references for general use permits  be no charge for the uses of parks or recreational facilities by senior citizen organizations adult supervised youth organizations or persons with disabilities organizations we've again exchanged from type three adding in general use language and then the last sentence partnership league shall pay an annual custody and key deposit of five hundred dollars this is a change recommended by the department the partnership leagues was a new league that we defined in the definitions this year and the organizations that fall into partnership leagues are our little league the molly girls softball association's special olympics pop warner a so heis and that's about half of them there's probably another six more that fit into that category the reason we wanted to make this adjustment with having partnership leagues only paying an annual key custody will deposit a five hundred dollars is there's a significant amount of time that goes into us calculating individual deposits for each type of field use for every key that's issued and it becomes really burdensome on the department to have to go in and make those adjustments on the permits themselves the other component is because they're youth senior in a t a i organizations there's no fee that's assessed for them so permit fee rental fee that's assessed so it's really just deposits that are collected and it's deposits that are refunded at the end of the season in going through the department we cannot come up with one example where we've ever withheld deposits from these specific organisations you know they truly are partnership leads with us they provide a program and a service to the community that if we had the ability to with our staff we would be doing it as well but because we can't and it makes sense to have that collaboration with the community we we want there to be those strong partnerships between us in those leagues and sometimes the when used add up all of the costs for all of the facilities that they are paying deposits for it can get to be a relatively high number which we're just going to refund back to them anyways and so we'd like to make this a five hundred flat fee for the year we would be able to collect one time and it would be good for any uses that we would have with this those league organizations throughout the year and that would save us on literally hundreds of hours of staff time within the department that we're currently spending on those permits in addition to it being a much easier process for the volunteer groups that are trying to coordinate the permits on their end the next asked strict there's two asterix on the under the special events  commercial and this references again down at the bottom for special events slash commercial fees fees shown or fifty percent of gross receipts whichever is greater so again the adjustment is just removing for all type fees and inserting special events slash commercial fees the and i guess i want to clarify there was one response that the department had provided to believe it was p r too where there had been some questions asked about the rates and fees and some clarifications we had made and there was some adjustments that were reflected on  the schedule of fees and deposits so this but i guess there's a third ass tricked if you're able to refer to the rates and fees that were provided in that p two that we would reference so that the three asterix were placed next to department sponsored which would be on the fourth and fifth columns of the fee table and the language that would then be inserted for the three asterix would be for department sponsored events that are primarily sponsored by the department their share shall not be any fees or deposits assessed so if it's the parks department that's the lead organization in  obtaining or putting on the event that we wouldn't be assessing ourself the fees and deposit so if we then move into the custodial deposit section of the table again there's really there's not too many adjustments in this other than the names up at the top so we're placing type one with government replacing the type to type to c c and type to our with department sponsored special events and community classes type three replaced with general use type for replaced with nonprofit political fundraiser and type five replaced with commercial so that's the overview i guess the one last changes you'll notice the fourth and fifth lines from the bottom the deletion of portable equipment without utilities and portable equipment with utilities these being deleted from the schedules of fees and deposits and you'll see these moved into the next table which is the equipment table so that's the other federal or state agencies or county departments have in parks facilities budget hearing meetings all those types of things are classified as government department sponsored would be more of the community special events that are done in conjunction with the department so things like barrio fiesta has typically been an event that's been considered county co sponsored with our new definitions it would be department sponsored senior fare is another example of that so the department sponsored are more of the special events a lot of the signature community events that the department is significantly involved at this point in time i don't believe that's been done for any of the events in the past years need to think about if you want to charge but there is value then i guess i would guess expect some paper recognition of that kind  please i see up here were used on the special events i thought i heard you say fifty percent of gross receipts or what is retained whichever is great but i see fifteen percent so did i hear wrong it's fifteen percent not fifty right one five i thought you said fifty so i wanted to make sure that that was on the record that it's one five fifteen percent because i was getting nervous when you said fifty percent i can see a lot of people not using our facilities and again to get it we really darn cheap when you use our facilities versus using other facilities out there you know like the mac and others you know they save in mensa amount of money and the other thing that i want to make sure that we catch and from now on is offering nonprofits an opportunity to make money money to put on these concerts and these other events which circumvents the commercial reach and i hope that they were going to be more diligent about that because it is frustrated me to no extent to have a community group be the spots get five thousand dollars or whatever and they and turn around and they make when we should have me fifteen percent off maybe one hundred thousand dollars boost you know they've slid around that that's been there they're circumventing the system and i hope we'd be more attention to that and eliminate debt as much as i don't want you know i like the group to make some money don't get me wrong with that yeah but if a group is five thousand and one with a county so they've got fifteen or twenty thousand to me we got burned on that one and then the group also has liability if monies old afterwards and this group is left out so that's something that i want particular attention paid to nonprofit group i greet you but this is the other area that i want attention put on and make sure that we have language to protect our county but these non profits will get sucked in sometimes without knowing it thank you thank you and the other thing is we don't want brianne you mentioned there the idea of having a one time like five hundred dollars a year instead of you know everybody how do the groups feel about that like that birthed or thank you chair the ones we've been able to talk to about it yes because like i said there's a lot of time and e mails and phone calls that go back and forth you know sometimes it might be that they normally only use x amount of facilities but maybe it's a rainout a rescheduling and we have to put them somewhere else so then we have to collect an additional custodial deposit because it wasn't one that was listed in their inventory or a lot of times with keys when we read keefe facilities we might have you know a set of keys that we want to issue and we are issuing maybe two or three sets of keys to multiple board members expression when they have you know multiple teams that are playing in different locations and for us to have to go through and do each key every just gets to be a lot of back and forth where it makes perfect sense i was just wondering if they had any objections to coming up with a lump of money i guess they could handle share or  so that we have talked to you know the bigger groups that i would say we have hardship is the senior groups so we try to do a speaking with them and we did meet with them with all the different senior groups that they are is you know they all fall on the one s group so we can but in the visualize because every senior group of different volume of participate in each one so to categorize every single one at the five hundred dollars deposit there was some hardship there but we did work with them and it's under one umbrella as far as that goes to kind of alleviate some of the pains of some of the groups had from each division because every single senator basically has a senior group that's in the during the morning i'm familiar with but i know they were kind of concerned that's why question exactly thank you very much out in the future also the dynamics to set it up and getting the pump station getting the plum you know those guys come out for a little water so as of right now we have not got a price point i think as we get more comfortable with the traders we currently have and really break down the cost at sites that are going to be   used i'm assuming the ones that are to be rented are going to be heavily used as the purpose of the rental so we will get to that point was a very no no it will be on the rental block as of right now ok thank you and i'm trying to recall every year we have mister rosenthal in line ashfield from any always comes in has shares his comments in reverse a line a civic center and if we would just drop one thing but raise the other fee it looked at that sort of reasoning thank you chair that i think has been a recommendation that he's proposed of you know reducing the cost of the posit by twenty five dollars and adding twenty five dollars to all the rental fee which then in you know and then every rental there would be another twenty five dollars that's captured that's not reflected in this proposal here one of the things that we when we went through the visions we talked about as a department to do the code revisions and the fee adjustments all at the same time and the thought was is that would be way too many changes both for us to try to administer as a department and retrain staff on as well as for from a public purse back to have and part of the reason we were able to i think have such a good communication with the public in going through and making the changes from a quarter vision perspective is they understood as we explained to them that this isn't about changing the fees this is about changing the structure so that we can administer permits simpler now that we've moved past that and we're in the administrative rules we are well then be scheduling to do an in depth feel assessment in the department and we would anticipate having that discussion in committee once we have those that information put together and that's also largely dependent upon doing the facility maintenance costs what are the operate the true operating cost for each of the different facility types so that's something we anticipate getting done between now and next budget cycle so that at next round in budget there can be possibly a different proposal for the fees but we'd like to be able to get that completed in house so that we can vet some of those numbers and options in committee before budget session next year ok very good i appreciate you know this is a huge you know revamping of sorts and to take thank you chair so those are the adult supervised youth organizations ok so we don't charge any of those use fees for use of our facilities they don't pay fees they pick us they've paid custody of deposits i would say department i regard you mr coach is a christian or a comment that should help at least be able to explain to participants and league is collecting so there is some misunderstanding that y is in it for me providing this and this since this is what i pay you and i participate in this league but it is not the county that is requiring that remit it's league and we've run into situations that people are giving out classes or whatever and saying it's a nonprofit or whatever and paying for salaries for the teachers and numbers but i will agree that the department needs some time to update their assessment because you know fees is to recapture the costs of what we put you know to me this thing work committee to assist the next budget every man's to deal with a more reflective fee schedule proposed because this is now and their prices department and i expect them to make their re and if you're covering it in another section of documents thank you chair so on page twenty three we move into the table for equipment rental of department equipment  you'll see some adjustments in this again the the same categories as i previous previously explained with the permits i've run across the topic placing the types with the actual names on the left hand side you'll see we've separated into small equipment and large equipment and this is in conjunction with the way we wrote the definitions and made some adjustments to the rental of department equipment in the co so at the under small equipment you'll see again stage platforms bleachers picnic tables the portable equipment without utilities portable equipment with utilities again no changes in the fees for the type they're just moved into different a different order and then you'll see listed under the large equipment the mobile bleachers and the show will be on stage and again the same there's the single aspect for the general use permits as well as the three asterix for the department sponsor and which also remain the same as the initial the table with the rates and fees underneath that you'll see moving into page twenty three and then it continues on page twenty four the deletion of the different types of activities and then the new definitions as w and then there was again one adjustment in definitions the department sponsored definition in the communication p r two was adjusted to read exactly as it was  so you don't have a component for replacement or damaged equipment so how would you address damage miss deposit would be withheld we added an additional language in thirteen zero four that allows for the department to recoup any additional costs equivalent to replacements or  repair of whatever what was damaged so there is language that was added into the actual thirteen zero for a code language around the custodial deposits to cover that your record in no thanks do we hope to get in so it's a very specific definition that we are having i would have to go back and probably run a report to look at the specific numbers i know that there was two groups that were here recently within the last couple of months it kind of varies every year on the number that actually come some view this activity where the folks are more into expanding that story train maintain the maximum use for residential requirements first and then and then residential very you know patient members any other questions you may have one twenty three or twenty four page twenty three of twenty four eight that's move one up page twenty five members you see the department is making the county fair or are they being assessed a different component for their planned event chair is the director so this for particular quotable coming up you know a kind of want to take you back to back in we had them all the county gc's is what the proposal kind of came into the department as so currently it is not part of this in fees structure they're actually have joined with the boys and girls club nonprofit  on the pavement or producer in the permit fee schedule however if it does it's bigger than the profit category under the not just this year because they know they're not doing it for to break even they're doing it to make money determined and what was the reasoning chair mystery director because it's based on the lanes so it's based on your club for one you know you have your club that comes in say with twenty summers on your your sim club and then six department under charges for services thank you chair so this is where we'll see the golf green fees there's were some adjustments made based on discussions in our committee and some of the from this body so if we go through the changes one that the department would like to make is changing the retirees with resident card from six fifty to six dollars and that's just because the the the quarters in the making of change is a little bit of an issue for us so it would be easier to have a flat dollar amount at six you'll see the separation between we've created two different time frames so from november first through april thirtieth we'd like to have a rate set across for daily at fifty for nonresidents forty for twilight and twenty dollars for nine holes and then for non residents from may first through october thirty first move to forty dollars daily thirty dollars twilight and twenty dollars nine hole the other adjustment again you'll see down further with the  nonresident breakdown for weekends and holidays you'll see again some adjustments to that fifty five daily forty five twilight twenty five nine holes and then again nonresident may first through october thirty first forty five daily thirty five twilight twenty five for nine holes following that we'd like to add in a student weekend rate three dollars daily three dollars twilight three dollars nine  holes and the reason for this is previously there wasn't a weekend student rate there was only the monthly rate so if a student came in took off on the weekend they would have to be assessed the monthly rate which was shown at twenty dollars in this proposal there's the deletion of the student monthly rate the department isn't necessarily opposed to not having a student monthly rate it was just deleted because of how it was listed and there wasn't the weekend rate the one issue that we have had complaints from parents about with the monthly rate is our system doesn't have the ability to generate it based on a thirty calendar day system so it's based on a monthly system so if you come in the you know last week of the month and pay for the monthly it's not going to be good for thirty days it's only good for the end of that month and then the main issue we had with that was because it was people were coming in on the weekend as a student to play and there wasn't an individual student rate for weekend play it was only the monthly rate but we're again we're not opposed to leaving in a monthly rate  but with the current system we have it all it has to be based on the actual calendar month and not a thirty day cycle other is well you know we've talked about it multiple years trying to get arranged so we're competitive with the the other courses because times were much higher than the other courses because they've lowered their r we still haven't seen anything or are we planning on doing that to give the department of range the option of doing a range during certain times of the years if necessary i know you're sort of doing it here but you know there are times where we may not need to lower it so no sense but there are other times where we may need to probably within these ranges but i mean i'm fine especially with the break down into two seasonal components of peak season and then peak season ok you know there's basically seventeen course operations on this right they're all competing for the same goal for them and i would say at this point in time i don't think any of the seventeen operations i really making money at this point in time you know we don't have a pebble beach  you know those are open to the public charge six hundred dollars and people willing to pay because of the stature of an maurice church we don't have a course that has that kind of stature the closest course we have with stature is  it's on t v and it's on part of the annual tourism courses that people professionals play so we have a great demand for that but other than that i would say our operations you know i talk to my brother all the operates a course that would love to have more play it would like to be able to charge what they needed with the overhead so i would say i don't think there anybody is really making money right now in golf courses that are what they had to pay to build the courses because you know it's gone like eight ten times tenfold at lease what it used to take to build a course to build on for a million dollars mr white question sir just one question the only thing the only rate with no changes between daily twilight and night holds as the student rate so flat three dollars across the board is there any benefit to me and it seems like you're going to play eighteen holes you should pay a little more than you are if you get paid play nine as any specific he could have it at three had a set of four or five for eighteen holes other than mr goodman and finally that a concern with me to any of the questions on page twenty six members again the department has given us a proposal and i will make the decision thank you members eight zero one just possibly if you can give us any adjustments or more details of the description amount of funds your source of funds the current status of the project your timeline or  completion date and you feel were of any factors that will infect your project from moving to completion  so why don't you go over the first one director if you were to give us your comments or deputy regarding the south maui community part mr chair mr coach i believe we had that discussion and at least if had asked we had had a long back and forth but i'm not sure if other members had questions sorry mr chair i think there was a lot of discussion on the jam and we're going to get back to what was actually before you and the after theatre in the size of the third third page from the back is the breakdown of the south molly park systems listings and again the park systems essentially is where we're including essentially it's a deferred maintenance listing renovations are pairs improvements planning and construction at a variety of the different parks facilities is a priority a list of priorities right now as determined by your your district's ok if that's where they feel is the most important i'm i'm fine with them thank you thank you ms cochran this the department did this they're one two three four five six seven projects that would be within this umbrella let's move to any irrigation ceri this project again is designed permitting and construction of an automated irrigation system utilizing our one water from d m for the second phase of wildwood on the park across trina channel replace all the heads because of the because it is our one water so it has to be specified specific types of heads and we are we the county are now paying for the r one water and everything as opposed to the condos themselves that how that's working here yes we will be paying for that phase two product yes ok and just for the members  had a test for come up and say hey it's it's green why are we needing to to water it and i had to explain to the testifier that the condos are taken care of right now they've been doing doing the community  favor doing them a favor to the looks nice in their backyard but they've also been paying sewage fees on the on the water in the water rates and so it's time for us to step up in this is a good use of our one water so thank you line already installed is to go the main line is already installed we did that two years ago we had finished this last year because i think technically you have one year once the light has been installed everybody must look to it i'm pretty sure  eight zero for some are we building maintenance requests master plan if there was a base yard plant so i can see that but i still think that we've got a lot of space that could be used behind the police station that isn't that much further away depends on how the slope is of the driveway but aside from that i think we have good usable park space i'd rather use it for park stuff and then behind where we could build a park we can at least do or maintenance so if we can bring that up in mr guzman's committee kind of as a combination sure why i think it should be looking at all the partner land inventory talk to finance e m is there to get the treatment to checking out the opportunities the department may have mr any questions on this project you know i always have a little bit of a ch te thank you for the department  so next we have lanai park system on the third this is the third page of the park systems breakdown again this is the same type of structure as identified with the south molly park system so it's essentially it's  a deferred maintenance listing of renovations of years improvements planning and construction for a variety of part facilities in this  there's been some initial initial discussions about the dog park location but at that location there was a couple other options that came up as we were talking with the community and so this would be one of the topics that would fit in really well with the smart growth action plans for the law and i area where we would actually be able to identify you know from the community needs assessment as well as more focus groups within the community  to make sure that at that location it's a dog park or it's a combination of dog park and pavilion and picnic area so there's additional community engagement that still needs to happen for that project acceptance of that gym this fiscal year as we all know it you know it's well over do for somebody couldn't sew a great maintenance on that the facility again is definitely needed for the community and now that it belongs to the county  department would like to you know bring it up to par and do a little face lit for it for a little bit just to get up to that that state stage where it needs to be thank you jim so everything regarding the sale and the transaction requirements of documents reco system department thank you chair so this is again another park system this would be the fourth page of your listing spread out again renovations repairs improvements planning and construction for a variety of park locations and recreational facilit this work all getting lined up but you have the question in this area of what was such a big projects you know when we started trying to track progress on various projects it's hard for us when they're all combined into one one bucket it's hard for us to track where the you know what the status of any particular project is and we have the same same issue with with status is but just to do something for your consideration yeah do you have any comments regarding the ability to tr system requests for forums mr chairman take the opportunity to make a pitch for the  allow for the tracking of specific jobs late late this it tracks it by the main appropriation the project managers then can track it by specific jobs based on the contract numbers or pos that they issue for that specific job so if you want a status update of any of these individual projects you can receive that from the department and it probably be a more complete appropriated over fifty thousand for those two items to be able to track it it was a separate appropriation yes correct but you're right and that's why i'm if you notice some of the park systems i actually split out bond financing versus cash as we became kind of short on cash so yeah it's kind of where we're looking at the nose on this you've got for fiscals seventeen you have eight hundred fifty thousand dollars in  bond do you know what projects those are being a lot of t you know again so there are two hearing the community's interests in being able to look at specific components of the system requests  you're going to need to find a way to be able to keep those tracking of expenses pretty accurate because we are going to ask for status reports that see you going to need to work with the committee staff or the rector because we are going to make enough clarification in descriptions and project verb there is no misunderstanding what we are giving you what it is for and what we expect to see upon completion so there's no question of or areas of gree replastering and redoing the deck so do you have a split of what that the split is on the replastering versus the decks and are we just resurfacing the decks or we place in the decks which is a whole lot more of a challenge deputy thank you chair so as we kind of move through we try to continue to get more information on the projects this year with some of the work we're doing one of the pools at the key hay and doing some deck rebuilding i think we've gotten a little bit better costs on some of the work that's needing to be done so we can we can go back and provide as much information as we have for what we're anticipating up to this point with this project but it's for all of these projects on these parks systems list it's a continual process when we initially get on the listed our best best estimate and then as we continue to move forward we keep trying to refine the project scope and get more information as much as possible to get more and more accurate numbers as we continue right now that i understand and appreciate that i'm just trying to get a sense of what the split is zero eight a country ski or chair so again another project for a country long overdue and from the community standpoint is the country skate park recently actually last night had our community meeting for design and construction costs and in all honesty members it's an awesome design that they put together for the community there's about fifty or so members of their community members that came out to support it they gave their input for final design which wasn't much it was more about changing auto rail or this and that but for the holy out itself the design of the layout the ecstatic over the creation that has been created for that particular area on the proposed site will be a part below the community center utilizing one of those fields that have been i can somewhat not as needed to that vast because of the football team moving to cool model soccer is using that area but for the amount of space the proposed design is to be about fifteen thousand square feet and in all honesty being honest with members here right now the price tag in what it was presented for what we see every single bit of is one point two and realistically it's coming out at about one point three and i've been asking to see what can we do to you know possibly get it down to this one two  area but again you will get a committee members out there tonight so just a little heads up don't be surprised when a bunch of skaters tonight at your budget erie you know giving their thanks to this point that we've gotten ourselves to but we asked that you know you look at that funding department but based is based off a west malise skatepark that came in at one point two and some changes well so as far as the estimate or the scope that was proposed that time for the country skate park you know on the department behalf you know it was definitely nowhere near to what the actual cost is going to be for that scope of parked at that curry time that it was estimated and i'm guessing that it may have been a smaller scale but the size and what the and you want me to borrow money for this so how much is it after we pay interest but thank you very much jerry we're going to hear about this tonight i think a lot of community association is sixteen i don't miss it will be on their list of things that they want and you know we've been hearing about this for quite a while i mean pledge it here we go through there's a whole bunch of people that come out of it really really want it so i realize the cost is a heck of a lot more than we were told that is that the truth about almost everything you read the paper i mean here could not seem to be much economizing going crunchy people i mean i think they deserve it just like any other district but when you're talking escalating cost and we're building it to one line no one's versus some of the other small smaller scale parks we have around this county again we've got to be realistic so i mean i'm sure whatever we're got to figure out and i'd like to hear from the boss i know he's been diligently working out how much with interest because i haven't heard that one back yet  in interest costs for a total project cost of one point six million to as we were told to me peen a world class park so my thing is you already telling us that the standard is above normal and did you going to get additional expense a world class level facility again i don't even know what it means to be a world class but what does that mean there are there are plas level cherokee you know it just for the department is looking to partnerships i mean i need you to think about it as cash cows because this is to be part of an overall economic development scheme for parks and recreation or some other lady said this is  or sister county took that and created chambers big of course it was not to go to gold course it was about economic development and bringing in the millions of revenues from that of operations it wasn't just ability golf course see that we push harder it's partnerships there's a lot of sponsorship i go to many other counties and mister miscavige can attest that they have partnerships guys having their names  names and on the fields and bringing in oh man some ounces of money which then our users don't have to be there people out there there are companies that are willing to do this all you gotta do is start asking and i think you we've taken too long to talk about it we talk about it two years ago we've talked about it last year this year he's saying oh we're going to look into partnership well which to go can say oh let me see it this way quit looking and start doing ok i think that's what we thank you for that comment mr couch thank you to the parks department are there i mean we've had folks at the cape will any skate park that our guests are pros and they put on do have some professional skaters whose second home is molly county so bringing that aspect there and it's touch base is on you know as far as being a role as events again the revenue i will for i from the private sector you guys want to go there we can go there  the parks and recreation of the same time it's an amenity for people who live in the community so we got to pick and choose what parts of what areas our revenue source that we want to use it from and always having that because there's a community centers where it is for people  county so you're not paying those fees that will accumulate from the stadiums or by road class skatepark you know we go of what we are definitely are that we are moving forward we are working with some of those sponsorship levels but incorporation g of outsource for manpower or moneys revenue generation and we are working on that and we will be seeing something within this fiscal year thank you thank you director any other questions members mystery one more quick comment and  all that they put money and they got to use the fuel for shooting times of the year and i really hear some people complain about why do they get exclusive use but look at all the money to do the upgrades that you enjoy for two hundred ninety days out of the year or whatever it might have been so there is some balance in it and people on this stand the balance you know it's their facilities but if somebody wants to use it for a week it will get hold of keep or how much money we spend letting home keep  be for two or three weeks world class which i feel so i mean you know we can see it we've been doing this for a long time all i'm saying take it to the next level there are people there are young men in baseball who are doing things right now for you right doing batting cages on there's a lot of things we can do let's keep promoting it that's all i'm saying thank you t you chair so this is a nother again of our park system specifically for the mall districts so this is the next page of your park system listings you'll see this breakdown and again the same renovations are pairs improvements planning in construction at a variety of park and recreational facilities  we're happy that the people will look i have a very nice facility right now but for all the center so i want them department any questions members for the park system well ok  charles so this is the way who golf course starter booth restaurant and the perry would be included in this as everyone knows those facilities have reached pretty close to their end of life  and so what we'd like to do is begin the planning and design exploration to look out what some possible options would be for replacement renovation repair work and then you can see fiscal year nineteen anticipated construction costs twelve million because we really haven't even began the planning process with this there there really could be still a lot  of i think flexibility again this is at this point is a good estimate that we're putting forth but there's not a necessarily a lot of space there but there is potential opportunities to utilize this space in more ways than just one and so both from a physical layout perspective multiple stories as well as looking at what other opportunities there might be to rent space or have more  enterprise fund driven activities out at that location we think if we can get some monies to move into planning and conceptual design work then we would be able to come back to either this body or through the a committee to be able to explore some of those options in a bit more detail are you going to have any should the issues that you can think of at this point i mean and nothing at this point but just based on the current records on the site itself you know we're having a hard time even finding sewer lines in other potential water lines that were  never kept to an extent of finding when we need to find them when it comes to plans so but i just point you know until we really get in there so you don't even have sets up as built plans the ones we have the original however i guess t hout its life that it's been there and construction throughout its late if things had been moved when nobody updated the as built plans so that you have something accurate on your files for requirements and unfortunately no nothing that we could dig up and we had just major sewer backup when we did so it is a definite concern and where we were department of we are definitely looking out to of course from this point on there are files that need some loving attention but we also need security including cameras on cameras as part of what you consider the return i want at the maintenance buildings system we do have by the time someone shows up for a neighbors actually call you know they're long gone so we're definitely looking into upgrading everything in that old system i think of course currently as we speak and then again  so we appreciate that and has some adjustments on the greens and tees i think the users see the difference and so again i'd be surprised if they have some issues with  anniversaries i've heard people say did go down there if we had something nice remember we haven't had anything in that area since we don't own the all seen anthony clubhouse and that was further down but that was one of the reasons they used to enjoy that beautiful view looking out at each mile we saw i really think that that we could be part of the ambience you talking about an enterprise there's an enterprise just sitting there waiting to be utilized thank you jeff don't because the current number one facilities people that has ample parking you've got an ample parking you know i'm not one of our advantages this so i can i'm very open to this members any questions you may have on this project regarding the way hullo words project mr coach thank you i'm just looking at the design costs and million dollars to design that's amusing all these other designs around fo does not feel like that they have the requirements necessary to do a project like this we did ask if that would be possible and they declined big contract single source big contract for them give us the qualifications i think they can qualify anyway i'm just looking at different ways of getting the job done with in being able to spend less money yet i think in the show we appreciate that for sure mr victorian of questions on this project no no this is something that is really  needed and i see we did set aside nearly four hundred thousand last year and it's bringing cumbered right that three hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred fifteen character share to min we have walked three four five baseball games soccer games football games right used to when you say oh you know because i know we do the fear we charge we could do this and then we could then the first time with these costs that we're talking about the public doesn't mind paying if they see the improvements being put in to what they are then they get to use the improvement that's correct so just and i go no i do that was a very make one major project and i would so we can work on that to get your members questions on this project mr white thank you chair how does the square footage of what this the front and just because two point seven million seems like a big number here to what we did on the others i think it was in the neighborhood of a couple hundred thousand but i may have only this one one part of the b investment in the department's infrastructure any of the questions members on this one if not let us move to community center there are thank you chair this is for the reconstruction of the existing basketball court kind of taking that out putting up new lighting and it's also for those members who are here in kind of going back to the restroom and tying into the sewer system the reason the original  in was going to tighten because of the size of the basketball court would be with the room with aggressor reconstruction of the rest room it would go into the impeding basketball court so that was the reason for that to tie in as i do for me she went back to the  office you know do we need a food site regulation court that's something that maybe we can possibly entertain but for right now for the current size of regulation court with lighting and the reconstruction of the restroom to tie into the sewer system they would be banging each other it but i'll bring it up in a little to keep thank you the ball field director is that he meets the official requirements for a little league field chair i consider the work of two facility a critical for they come communities needs and to maintain their own identification as white couple people members questions on this requests these specific parks are in dire need of these repairs and upgrades so i have no problem with vendors that your thank you thank you mr wade questions are just the same question i had on the other what what is being chair just pool hall a park which would be number six on the list  regional sports complex which is not to be confused with central maui system  not recommend this i guess as a project at this point in time and we would consider discussing us as well as the other operating potential expenses  when we are able to discuss them away with the spotty but we thank you for that those comments and status update so we would defer further discussion on this request at this time can you tell this committee so we can prepare and mr white can prepare the food body when do you anticipate being able to send to counsel a friend always memorandum of agreement from the state of   the recommendation at the appropriate meeting would be for this item let us move to the white kapoor community center expansion thank you chair this i had been at both of those meetings along with some other community meetings in that white couple district and they are more than happy to see this done we remember now we used this for our kapono program there also and our seniors deserve to have a little bigger out a little better situation for them to utilize every day for their program so i'm looking forward to this and i thank you mr chairman thank you department and i think the community at large there and likeable and it's not just white director or you are releasing anything besides charity it's our land ok so i just want to know if what is the ability regarding this site for any other future considerations and if we were max it out and the only way we're going to go is going to have to look at adjacent property at least we would be aware of it because mr victor in his career in this area that is that chair t there's just two i don't step with the community means that when i did attend and when we did do i think for the community itself because of the surrounding homes in that area and the parking situation it wasn't about expanding the size of the community center but more so giving it a face it and putting a patio outwards towards the field and of that not necessarily making it larger they were happy with the size   we all know once you meet that a little after and from the best of all courts on sky stuff parking on that side of the road access to the center now gets impeded so if you want to deliver things to a function for seniors you just to see what what we were looking at i think a lot of the again one of those things where it was done so many years ago and over time whatever had been changed or old that system we're trying to figure it out now we're finding out those things now so this is to get the already determine the scope in impact of the leak you did all the die tests and everything else there are chair we did some testing as far as a scope i don't know what i do know is that during that quick investigation that week we could go to the biggest thing is where was the water going it wasn't tied in to what it originally was the fault of so with the build up or construction of some of that new area of the tennis court or the parking lot in that area there somewhere down the line something had been maybe placed other areas so we go to the extent where it's going but we have we don't have it your idea of where the water is draining into which makes me with that area watched it change we also have the upper pool which is the wading pool which sheen use use we built a new pool well above and so i think when you look at it a lot of that changed the design as well as the construction altered where this water was coming from england and i think if you look back at some of the little plans you find some of the alterations you just got to go back and dig it up and so you know you're talking twenty five years ago it's not something one year study twenty five thirty years ago yeah because i remember that my children are fairly young and we used to use that for a long time so if it doesn't cost too much i'm all for it if it is just a chair maybe it's time to move on you know i know i got i got a lot of a  thank you chair so this is for the by who golf course wastewater improvements this specifically would be for wastewater treatment systems at the clubhouse and design and construction of an absorption field at the locations that we were having issues with and so we were able to do a little bit more looking into them and this would be proposed upgrades needed in order for us to get those systems back working so the project is to take a club post issue and fourteen fear we restroom issue so we still looking at two separate components are we looking at one new system that w time frame for this particular restroom you know it will be to the extent of what we would need for the actual potential build out and also think is possibly if we can see if we can even tie in to this or system from hawaiian homes with those homes there into the clubhouse we really wouldn't need to tie in with the fourteenth restroom ok because of the location of it and the area that we would be able to do a leach field just was trying to not do  money as opposed to cash chair so the reason this is being asked for here we don't have any additional funds in our existing golf course operations if we if we did we would have moved forward with these projects  sooner but the timing of you know either doing a budget versus just going through seventeen we continued with the work and it made no sense to just move forward as a fiscal year seventeen request because it being the golf course and with the enterprise funds we aren't able to utilize the different repair and maintenance operations monies that we potentially would have had within the department's operational b not self sustaining as as you know we do simple math when we look at the financing options of these capital projects if we utilized cash well we would do is increase the supplemental transfer from the general fund to the gulf fund for that so in in general what would happen is the general fund revenues which is real property and others would be paying specifically for this enterprise fund asset where if we bond the project then the debt service can be paid specifically out of those funds and in some future year we're hoping that the enterprise fund actually makes enough money to cover its own operations and then also cover the costs that said yeah i understand the transfers and the enterprise fund but the reality is that sustaining only partially self sustaining part of the parcel apartment so you know on all the other issues with respect to the parts we pay cash so it's just it's such a small amount and it's and it seems to me if we've got a problem with with failures this is an immediate repair and let's we can know we can afford to wait a couple more months but this is my feeling generally we get tagged if we've got this kind of a problem i appreciate your comments and i would see where we're going to improvements so we'll take this request and you know we'll see how we can skin the cat chair if we get another thank you one thing this real quickly so there is the restroom trailer that we have out there at the golf course and that prevents the i guess the volume of usage with the numbers it allows for us to still maintain the systems  if we're still able to maintain it in compliance then i wouldn't call it a failure you guys use the term failure in that the document failure means we've got to fix it right now good point this coach thank you mr chair you know you're talking about the one restroom there and and was it yesterday or the day before we were talking about these trailer restrooms and i just put one out there for the price looks like we can have it there for a number of years before it gets bad that's the one out at the for the pumping of service of that would you know all over this is a total guesstimate over fired of eight years we surpassed the fix that we wouldn't have to do the service that we would do on a monthly basis civic complex this is a propose a moral complex you know with a new area for a proposed gym and the relocation of the current gym you know with the rehab that is needed for a moral gym ask that she bring that for when department management comes out thank you any questions members mr boyd there's a statement that the renovation of the gymnasium is cost prohibitive has there been a study done as to what the cost might be emergency that we may have from storms that jim is not capable of holding anyone and it's used as a shelter after the fact of course after the storm is done so you know based on what we were in discussion is the structure of that facility it is you know it would be a lot of work i priced this to louvers just because of the of the rain and as that as a shelter during this past season that we did have the louvers alone on a quick estimate just to replace the louver jealousies in there was uppers of three hundred fifty thousand dollars and that doesn't include the gym floor which there is a water on there at the white hate site basket on there are court so there's a strong statement and i'm assuming that we're going to and the new gym is going to be built a different spot from the existing are correct yes that is correct that would be ideal there is a two different locations but ideally it put on to the current field in between the pool and the fields one two and three so somewhere in that location would be the proposed site and just to quickly and as well is i guess during the memorial situation being as far as increasing that memorial that we do have a little more so other options were being looked at as far as where we go with that ideally to the overall master pad or conversation as well as expanding our quad xander so in the event we were to move the pools or anything like that you know having something worth the gym would possibly be taken down and moving the memorial site a little further up and  any questions you know it's a chair even though this is a very difficult situation to be with because again a lot of memories a lot of when we have events in there it's pretty tacky and the public complains it's hot the seats don't work real well the bench is a you know i'm kind of torn with this but i'm not the really happy with the idea of moving the gym and that field area between the pool and the literally feels that i don't think i like either because the water flows down and that's one of your water sits and so if you're taking water is in consideration well you better have a good good drainage system that works because what we have there now doesn't work we repaired that for a number of times because of floods and now if you're going to go into the next level it's going to go right down and if you've ever had big rain you see the water poorly in that fields so i'm not an exit exactly keen on this whole idea and you know what until they can give me or you know much the chair i know you're going to be making some coach yeah i want to echo mr victory no sentiments you know for something this big we're looking at we're talking forty million dollars normally we've gotten a plan before hand to take a look at it in the subject committee to say oh yeah this is something that we were willing to do let's put it in the budget but come and ask us for forty million bucks in the next two years without any real big plan unless i missed it in some committee meeting a couple years ago i think we should see it first in mr victorian house some very valid concerns so you know off follow the lead of that area or like to say that we saved the recreational component of this complex i think mr victory and it brought up a key component that we should also take into consideration is this is an area that the county has chosen to honor or did that serve our country in the many armed conflicts and so you will see names of our residents there you'll see names of family members there you assume names of your neighbors and i want to keep in mind that perspective that it is not just each game it is in place two on earth did it's a war memorial facility second i am not into us getting rid of that neural that was after we designated mr sato as a living legend of the county as on of the most famed artists not only in the state but of our country regarding his form of art we hired him specifically to restore that when he was a living legend of this co so those are two murals that i will go and i am going to defend to the end there be no further questions on this let's go get one more project before we die which is the who's making sure that he qualifies within the perimeter of new or expanded this six hundred thousand tear us civic center because park assessments has a very narrow permitted use window center projects those total up to one point eight million dollars you felt that the improvements to that facility would be significant permit improvements would be lasting a long time and with a significant resources available i think you missed the bars members any questions on this project requests parks but tomorrow we have major challenges because of the t t issue and its impact on this county and its budget mr victory no mr white th will be on oahu representing the interests of this county and this council because that will impact this is made on the proposed budget saving that miss cochran  after that we will have a quorum so i'm going to adjourn for the day which means members will be on that march right after that and you can pick where you want to die along the road but we're not stopping until we finish this mission so be prepared for a long day's long nights you're going to be grouchy as a grouchy as the chair but you will be grouchy and tired i promise you we need to finish the work or as i mentioned last night you can defer to the chair and i will be happy to show you in the chairs proposal and draft what made it and what didn't make it so we have options but i'm just given you don't have the land as your church you understand it for tomorrow which means be back behind the eight ball the realities of demands upon this committee the members of this committee and our staff any questions that mean that we'll see you up country for the six p m community