actually i can't think of any other place where information resides and what's happened here is that the central intelligence intelligence agency has chosen because it suits its purposes of withholding information in violation of the spirit of the removed from a snack conspiracy to construe my request for records of people who did some torturing the united states government it doesn't want to give up that information so it chose to look at the words that i used one of which was records and say you can't have it because you've asked us in a derogatory i've always believed he should say everything in law it does that for the identity of persons right here your requests it asks for records that contain the identities of persons of whom president obama in the summer of it in more on records as opposed to you know give me a list of the names of people who are alleged to be torturers but i didn't ask for a list of the names of people i asked for records that contained the names of those people there isn't any other were better way that i could possibly could have put that and the matter what words i would have used i still wouldn't have gotten those records this way what time period are you asking august ninth twenty fourteen said in public quote we tortured some folks whatever that was we tortured some folks obviously it had to do with it after nine eleven i believe the torture began records i like all the records of the persons in world war two who are recommended for the thelma star but we're not awarded the ri that the proper document requests i believe that it's proper documents to end war and that could be you know thousands of i mean how would how would the agency goal how would you make the search even for that they would do the best they could here they do now they could also come back and say to you that's really very very broad and we really put you please narrow your request and it's going to take huge number of person hours to do this and  haven't asked for records rather you've asked for information and therefore you've put it into rocket word us and you can't do that but that was only said and they're stuck with their record well that let's assume that they're stuck with what they said to you initially that you did request records they did make several phone calls and one of them at least according to the supplemental records page five says the f o a branch shave said we can't process the request in its current form because it didn't reasonably describe the records sought and will work with you to craft a more focused request and what did you do with that massacre that i stood on my original request which i think was appropriate i don't think they were trying to help me at all craft anything what they did were doing was they were doing what they do with freedom of information act request they were going to give this stuff up and no matter what words i would have put in there i never ever would have gotten these records they would temporizing they were avoiding they were doing what they were supposed to do and what they were supposed to do was to say either it's too broad and narrow it or we're going to invoke certain exemptions and you're not going to get a lot of what you want they didn't invoke any exemption yet you think you think that includes  a question to create a record well no it doesn't you can help doesn't it says it there is a question mark at the end but he asks for records and information now he could have said that he didn't say records that contain but that's the clear implication of what is as it were i want information which are contained which is contained in records or i want records that contain the following names and information and then he also threw in and what did the president mean by the word week you can ignore that part of it but you can ignore and refused to respond to the first part well your honor yes the cia was not obligated to respond to that because i is asking who are records that contain the names that i mean there's a question about what he meant by what but what if i would have an investigation into what did dot president obama mean by that well forget that part of it why is it any different from judge to she this question give me the records of all the people that were recommended for error medal of honor whatever it was in world war two which may be tens of thousands of people in the government would then say this is too broad and that's not narrow enough but they would respond well i agree that just to see ms question is very specific because it asked for the who the people were who were recommended and that's a record that can be searched for i very burdensome to do what judge the shame is hypothetical propose but you'd still be required to respond in either say narrow it or this is too burdensome or it's going to take too much time you can't say we have  respond well i think what the problem inside going i mean i think part of the problem here is that the way the question was asked containing names that of people who may have tortured someone no terms themselves are not as clearly defined as  would not be now let me let me say rephrase your honour's hypothetical if he had said i would like a existing record that lists the individuals whom president obama was referring to that would be a proper record request that would be a preexisting record you're not asking the agency to go through its records and determine you know recreate that list because it is clear that you don't have to create a list but if that's what mr young man is asking for a preexisting record that lists the individuals to whom president obama was referring that would it invoke an exemption and then you know subsequently there may be an exemption yes of course but i just want because i mean there are ways to formulate a proper request here the request is for you know probably did to create a record to investigate to whom president obama was referring and so forth but if it's merely construed in the manner that i'm suggesting that would be a proper request and that's why the cia offered to help the cia have any rules or formal procedures that it does there request we've got to work we've got to reformulate it i mean i think as your honour's probably aware there is that an aspect of the regulations that suggests if the regulation is invalid the agency will offer to help which it did in this case but that's there's nothing more for nothing when it's sort of an informal process yes can't get on the phone and say well or sending a letter yeah exactly or calling someone on the phone to offer to work with them but don't you don't you often you probably represent other agencies besides the say in your work at the justice department don't you often file motions to dismiss or motions for summary judgment in cases saying it's too broad we can't identify the proper files even to search based on the vagueness of this request you engage with the other side even if you think the request is vague or over broader or burdensome you don't just say no we're not going to do it well your honor is correct and i one thing i would point out about the timing here i mean the agency sent one letter i mean if you haven't filed his request in august and filed suit in october so there wasn't a lot of time and the agency again after a filed suit admittedly but did offer to help work with him and he they only sent him to let does constitute a request within the meaning of play it i think consistent with the purposes of the act they said get one bite at that at this apple otherwise it's going to go on forever it's going to go in front of the two three days by the case that says you know when the time limit going on now for two and a half years assuming this court might decide in my favor to go back to the district court will spend another six months or a year there and then i'll be back here again it will be up to five or six years i just think that's conceptual wrong i didn't ask them to construct anything at all i didn't ask them to prepare records obviously records that you ask will have to be extant records i can say because i know it's so and i could submit i need to that the four your rules are the same government wide there are no different or separate rules for any agency like the cia and last with