factually similar is there anything that distinguishes the two in other words president is is not a holding that we are required to follow based upon the same or substantially the same s name is removed from their active roles on their own volition without any charges pending against them and somewhere around say that they're no longer a lawyer because they were found  parson or whatever but if something goes around the same things that are true as to the basis for the decertification that seems to me to be something other than something that is covered by financial damages brought on by statements that were not true and so the concept of real revocation of the ordination seems to me to be somewhat of a you have the right to excommunicate or not to excommunicate but you don't have the right to live or slander and so it's not that we're he's not asking to my knowledge that he reinstated in your church if he were the case would be gone i believe because i don't think anybody's said that we're going to tell you whether or not you have to accept him whether you had to accept them originally or whether you have to accept them now after there's been a jury finding th arguably that is the purview of the church believe you tell the world false statements isn't it simply slander and lies on has really nothing to do with the action of the church except in what you're saying which is not our somebody comes to me and makes allegations and i decide i'm going to judge somebody or something based upon the allegations i read your assume in order to rightfully conclude i either have to determine public record or there should be some sort of hearing or proceed in whereby the member and the t d only of those charges are proven true or false now we can argue about but the burden of proof is preponderance clear and convincing or beyond a reasonable doubt but the point is i'm happy and i think the point is your church can do whatever you want when it comes to green gene for denying ordination you don't have to be here you can accept anybody stigma off the street but when it comes to making judgments about facts that michael people in a false light how do or what did your clients do to determine whether or not this was too but if you look at it it may ninth letter first of all is there a false statement you don't even get to investigation which they brought up if there is not a false statement and then you only get to be on whether or once explained expanded it in full twenty third letter along with the charges look at the wording of the letter and it says men from your church have come to us and these are the charges that they made against you and letter ms are false and may ninth letter there is no testimony from anybody any witness that any of the statements here as they are made are false what they want to go by is the certainly if you were to present those letters to anyone off the street they'd come away with the impression that the media church has some sort of oversight hierarchical authority over the whole church which is not true in testimony pastor well it's a completely situation in the present case we're not asking the court to install reverend duncan in a certain position world and move him from so and physician we're not asking the church to do any type of thing so i think it's completely different on that grounds the only thing is that proves the pastor in that case was a current employee members because the members are exercising their first amendment rights to practice religion in their scenting to this arrangement their choosing to join the church series choosing to subject themselves to whatever this church or of it and we're talking not about as you said he's not asking to be reinstated i i i just bring it up because my point is that in the justification for this this this idea that the church can don't believe that individuals should ever have those statements that they don't just offensive statements about an individual missing overture and i think the case could mean big even if individuals were members of the church