are number one scam one in pacific windows did all that they could to make sure this coverage was replaced and that it was continuous the application when it first application in october the preceding year another application went in and december third application when there was received on december twenty eighth do you agree that the binder contract the issue the contract contains the forms part the insuring agreements exclusions limitations and so forth that are not included in the binder but only adopted by the binder by reference so the policy holder application but here was the application was weeks before insurance company do you say we want coverage from a certain day and they say well we're not going to cover you before we even heard of this will cover you from the time that you fifteen hours of the day can they do that yes how you sure are temporary minor from three twenty seven to midnight and then they make their policy effective that night that's the way they should the way they did it violates  evidence is that the producer was agreement and the binding procedures that he could find bias request without confirmation giv before the loss and there's coverage and it doesn't matter i mean there's an issue about the two day gap in coverage where the more technically pacific required it was south at twelve o one am on the twelfth and there's coverage and all the other issues remo in which case it's wiped out or if it started on the tenth in which case you have two days of irrelevant coverage correct you've got coverage as of midnight on january twelfth of the last question here happens virus and they say oh sure and how do you know when you have a binder and what is that made this take effect i mean the actual binder wasn't issued until february first retroactive right well what in this case what defines this custom and practice in the industry under the skyways case you can see what a complicated analysis it is it depends on you know of course the application were them acquired and where they were waiting to get information well generally a would because the only issue being price they would quote you the price and then you would have set the price back and know we can place a supplemental policy we can and you can you cannot cover them for two days for any no losses or en route you're actively endorse the policy to the camp expiration date there's a ton of things that you can do but the quark has us completely from showing that house in practice and its impact in this case and i think that was there there was clearly a factual good morning your honour's if it pleases the court i'm susan walker council for national i believe fire insurance company the case does boil down to two issues the first being whether insurance code section fo sixty requires that every insurance policy issued on a printed form in california has an inception date of twelve or one am and the second issue is whether there is a question of fact because i think to to look at the opening of helen's brief you asked the question your honor answers the question how does the policy relate to the binder and what happens to the binder when the policy is issued and the law is fairly stated in the opening three think there are several important points to focus on with respect to a binder and  one or whether there is an exception if it is an exception in paragraph to which appears to apply to bind and you say no it doesn't just apply to bind it's an exception for the policy itself and that's where we were now number one he said there's no place to discuss is that either way so we're left with the statute and your reading of the stat second paragraph is separate occurrences the first paragraph is your standard form contract the second paragraph is what you do when you deviate from that the statute in the second paragraph allows you to deviate it allows you to form a  the policy that follows and that's where the second part of that sentence and paragraph two becomes important says as does the fight in the policy because that means as specified in the policy means the time other than twelve or one must be specified in the policy that answers the questions that started this argument about what is the relationship between the binder and the policy finder ceases to exist once the policy comes into effect that case is on page seventeen of the out the binder therefore you have to have the same times in the binder and the policy that follows and that's that's how that paragraph works so we're dealing with a situation where a binders issued in a policy follows paragraph two says if you shoot a binder with a start time other than twelve one that same time has to be in the policy that follows and the reason for that is because of the well established case law that says when the policy is issued it wipes out the binder with the policy could cover a period preceding the social divider in theory and that's really what's being argued here you could you could have a after appears to cover want to come in and because it talks about extending the period of coverage for you the twelve hours preceding which seem to be the inception were twelve hour following which is after expiration paragraph two talks about the issuance of a binder as it doesn't say that you can have a policy when it doesn't come out and say what i think you're trying to say that it says may or may not be fatal to your argument but it doesn't say you can have a policy that has the time as specified divine or it says you can have a virus to specify the time other than twelve or one i disagree i think that the only way you can give meaning to the second part of that first sentence in the second paragraph which says quote as specified in the standard forms it formed issued as a normal policy the only meaning that that can have is that the time that's in the binder which is other than twelve or one the the fact is there are not any cases and that the thrust of the second paragraph is to deal with a situation where you want to do deviate from the start time of twelve a one in the important point to remember you know the questions that we got a moment ago about well can't you have a policy with a different date than a binder i have this statute deals with inception of time in the dark talking about on january twelfth absolutely correct and i would like to take the quite through how that occurs and why there was no binder formed on the ten this is the amount of paper that pacific window had two agents negotiating the contract on its behalf scanlan the retail broker and he's the wholesale broker and that's in their discovery responses negotiating on behalf of the insurance company was pacific gateway their general agent he's for subsequent purposes of collecting the premium delivering the policy was the insurance company's agent and this is the four fifty nine of the record i subsequently stand a chance to confirm our conversation and that's on page four fifty nine well here's the conversation this is with he said he's confirming  the policy doesn't tell you much about whether you have a bond or i think it tells you a lot i think it tells you you do not have a binder because you're negotiating that's exactly the point a binder is a contract there is no contract till there is an offer an acceptance on january ninth there all right well thank you very much