definite area but we have shown there our proposal would create a definite domain consisting of the area encompassed within fifty road miles at every direction from the employees official duty station which in other words is where the employee normally reports to work the agency with the lecture the most expeditious roles possible for official probable and official stations would be measured using those variables these official stations would be uniform for all employees and they would not very pro trip it so but if you if you got to the point where this negotiable and road miles are being used then i don't think it would be a circle because the whole point of using road miles is that circles to begin with and so it would be it would be a bunch of it would be just the hole to the government if if if the government wanted to benefit in reference to the g s a then the government could have brought in the g s a to get deference for the government didn't do that and so from your perspective all you're faced with as a result of an education and you're trying to get it overturned in our court proposal to the road miles just a couple of practical questions so what happens if there's a place that isn't on the road how to work in practice there must be locations the government workers go to that aren't accessible by road because i mean especially c d p i would assume that there are areas that are just off account as the exact route and not treating somebody who drives one hundred and eighty miles by zigzags if they've driven ten because as the crow flies it would be ten i understand of it i just don't i wasn't quite comprehending what happens on a road map proposal with destinations  related to that work i don't think our proposal doesn't have an effect on this that individual that circumstance so that for that person it would at least take into account the last road stuff they had and then if they have to get out and go by foot then it's just not within the scope of this case you're saying well so you are proposing this doesn't create areas as that would be it could be that you know it's not tells you what you do to connect those samples so in theory you could say well you take a straight line between each of the end points and you create a triangle you can take a curve and you can create something that looks maybe a little more like a suitable depending on where the end points are but function in drawing up an official station so i know it's confusing the conceptualizes think about here but there isn't and on appeal most of the authorities arguments are uncertainty based arguments we don't know how it works but it looks like custody were protection to calculate are reviewed employees travel compensation by venturing fifty road miles from their official duty station every direction is not negotiable because it's contrary to the regulation forty one  ok so would you love the reason use is basically one sentence correct it says it is not a definite or calm and could extend more than fifty miles from where the employee regularly perform that makes any sense if it's fifty road miles then it will either be less than fifty miles or if it's an actual straight road it will be fifty how could it exceed fifty that there is a point  things seems wrong and if we know that there's three things the st one is just a statement it's not a definite area without an explanation of why it's not definite area i know you have a theory about that but then the nd one says could extend one to thirty miles and if we think that just as a matter of basic geometry it can't be more than fifty miles i mean i grew up in kansas and i seventy is basically a straight line i know one thing is when you go fifty miles on i seventy you're going fifty miles but you're not going more than fifty miles but that's what the sentence seems to say is that even if it's a straight line it could go more than fifty miles i just don't understand that as a matter basically on the tree and so we think that can't be done then at least one of the pillars of the rationale is wrong but these are already interpreted the entire regulation in the entire paragraph this is it does it is the authority was looking at the weight that this regulation could be interpreted and what it provides for and the regulation provides with every employee in every trip and i don't see how that's accurate either the the the regulations or statutes require that employees travel the most expeditious route possible  and we don't judge we don't travel whole lot but we do like for example when we go to a judicial conference we either get we get or if we take a bus we get our bus fare or if we drive they say you will be reimbursed for one hundred and eighty two miles and we all get the same thing so i don't see and i see all agencies i haven't worked in the executive branch for a long time but that's how i recall worked  deeply curious as to why someone who has to tripoli didn't ask the the writing agency what means but that's that's not part of this case i just want to know why you think this sentence regulation of your travel by the most expeditious route possible yes it does or as well as section three hundred dollars nash report none which requires an area the federal travel rector finds official statement that has to be official station as an area it had the job or accepted the responsibility to define and pick out a road pick out a map pick out a particular route the proposal as it's written as it was submitted by the union is just fifty road why don't we read that in the context of an employee under existing regulations could not get reimbursed for a fee of fifty a trip that was the by the most expeditious who possible fifty miles could not get reimbursed for seventy five because the employee visited his sister right the two couldn't do i would be regulations correct i i would presume so sir but that not a definite area i'm not sure i understand why it's not a definite area either because it's the definite area that includes all the spokes but the regulation cars shape the place that doesn't say anything about a shape in a place that has to be a definite domain and i don't understand which i think it is synonymous with definite area and if it's a definite domain meaning definite area i'm not sure i'd i understand why it's not a definite area to say what's what area are you talking about while i'm talking about the area that in that includes those folks but and that's not really authority interpreted we don't know how to interpret the regulation because all it said is it's not a definite area that's it that's i think i'm reading every single word that speaks to whether it's a definite area and the words are it's not a definite area it doesn't say why it's not a definite area just says it's not a definite area and i don't understand why it's not a definite area if the answer is it is a definite area it's the definite area that includes those folks but that would depend on how each and every individual plea happened no it doesn't it doesn't depend on how region because if the let's suppose the proposal said and it's just a proposal and all we're talking about is whether it's negotiable we're not talking about how it's going to be negotiated going to come out there's some common metric for determining what road miles are and let's just say that google maps then at that point it's not true that they vary with employee every employee and every trip because all you need to know is give you point  on that it doesn't vary but that's not what the regulation provides the issue for the authority is not how to get people paid or how to get compensation but whether the individual proposal met up with the regulation  right and then the words of the regulation that matter is whether it's a definite domain and i don't understand why it's not a definite domain when you know that it's the domain that is encompasses the spokes because the proposal  employee to define depending on the road winds and this is not that sort of subjectivity is not reflected in this regulation the regulation provides an area and the right i don't i don't i maybe a maybe i'm asking the it's not apparent but i don't understand why it's not definite i don't understand why it allows for variation because we're assuming that there's a way to figure out road mileage and once we do that the definite area is the area encompassed by those road trips it just tells you from point a to point b the road mileage is quite encompassed by the following route once we know that that's the area it's definite it's completely all three pillars fail the area but that area created by our proposal is the area that was indicated a few minutes ago by the court it is the quote unquote area within the stokes that's what we're all sort of all about and it can