good evening stapp for science for the public and i welcome you to tonight's contemporary science issues and innovations program tonight right on the heels of president obama's official rejection of the keystone x l pipeline and the revelation of exxon mobil's climate change denial campaign we are very fortunate to welcome jeff day yet from the union of concerned scientists to update us on both the fossil fuel issue and the progress in renewa energy mr de it is the assistant director of energy research and a senior energy analyst at the climate energy program at the union of concerned scientists he conducts analysis on economic and environmental costs and the benefits of renewable energy and energy efficiency policies he's written extensively for a union of concerned scientists and various renewable energy publications on the consumer employment and environmental benefits of increasing renewable energy use he's been quoted widely in numerous media resources a few years ago mr day appeared on this program to talk about cooler smarter practical steps for low carbon living a book he coauthored with several other professionals at the union of concerned scientists tonight he discusses the struggle to speed up that transition to renew e energy and he also explains the importance of an informed in gauge public for the success of this transition it's a great pleasure to welcome him back again welcome jeff good to see you to be back  and maybe we could start with talking about the progress in renewable energy since you've been working on that a great deal yeah you know it's just really exciting i feel like we're approaching a tipping point in our power sector and increasingly towards low carbon sources of energy like wind and solar and geothermal and other renewable energy technologies and it's moving so fast as you say what's the impetus is it just the drop in think or is there more public there's several things going on that's really driving this this transition we've seen a doubling of the amount of electricity that we're getting from renewable energy sources just in the past five years and you know that's really been driven by a combination of factors so commies of scale helping you know as we ramp up prices are falling also contributing to lower costs our innovations in the themselves and of course we've been you know really supporting these technologies with state and federal policies to help drive their development and it's really starting to take root in and take off across united states yes other there are number of other countries in europe particularly the have not really moved fast on this like denmark for instance do you foresee us sort of catch up to that scale given that we're such a huge country and yeah i mean i see that you know some some countries in europe in particularly had prioritized renewable in their policies comprehensive energy policies that they've developed many years in the making and to be principly so far in the wind and in solar can you give us any background on that like which is dominant i understand that you need usually a mix but yeah well you know we do need a mix of low carbon technologies now no one technology is going to be able to supply all of our electricity needs enter the united states but we've really seen you know for the past decade or so when power had been the united states it's half as expensive as it was just four years ago something eighty to ninety percent cheaper than it was over a decade ago so you know that technology is just sprouting up across the country and really giving wind a run for its money in terms of  dominance will continue to do so i think they'll probably run you know side by side in their growth trajectory over the next ten to fifteen years and that's you know an example of innovation as you are asking about  in wind power technology turbines have gotten taller the blades have gotten longer these are both not in significant engineering feat when you're talking about that much weight and stress on a yeah that's really very interesting how fast that technology has changed all sorts of devices now because they have to be up high but yeah well that's where the that used to be wind wasn't the best resource in the southeast for example or in the rust belt region but now with the innovation in the technology we can put wind virtually anywhere and do it affordabl certainly in efficiency of its ability to capture the energy from the sun and right into electricity it's really i think the most exciting thing that's happened in the past two to three years has been dancing in in solar technologies and the not just the innovation in the technology itself but the innovation in our ability to finance it and in looking for different ways to create a to broaden the access of solar so that homes of all economic spectrum scan can tap into the solar and put it on the roofs rooftops or it can you know you know we've seen utility scale projects get cheaper and cheaper to the point where these these  an exciting time right could you just give us a little information about that ability i think a lot of people are not aware of how accessible this is now that individual homeowners are all whatever perhaps communities are considering getting solar and stuff can you about the financing and setting up that stuff do you so there are multiple ways that you know as a homeowner you can tap into similar technology so you can you know if you if you've got the  means and you want to you know pay for a system upfront it's somewhere you know between you know fifteen to twenty twenty five thousand dollars to to install a system to supply of your electricity needs but if you don't have that kind of money upfront you can certainly get much more low cost loans to purchase that but the way that the really interesting thing is what we're calling it's known as third party financing in homeowners can now at least wind wind or excuse me solar panels on their rooftop where somebody else is paying for it and maintaining them and you're just paying a flat monthly p v instead of the amount of money that you would pay on your electricity bill for example you could lower your electricity bill not have to worry about folks across the country we're at a point now with this technology where within the next two years we will have what we call grid parity meaning that solar on your rooftop will be the same price of electricity from your electric company i think it's just that this leasing is sounds particularly good at this times because the innovations are like accelerating all the time so what you have put up and just invested a lot of money in electricity that they may not now you know in the summertime when you're generating more for their solar system than they're using you know that policy has really helped to make you know solar affordable again across the country we have more than forty states that have have net metering policies in place and you know that's been a real driver of what we called rooftop solar yeah three right and so it gives communities a little independence to doesn't i  mean in principle we're at the top at this time the way our grids are set up you could have a northeast shutdown for example you know because of the way our grid does this give more independen power operators and working crews going out to fix lines that are down they can't have up electrons on the line and yes i still see those systems are good time now but as we as we advance towards setting up micro grid some communities where you where you have you know rooftop solar systems tied to fuel cells or other other battery systems you can have energy independence at the micro level at the community level right really exciting that there are a bad thing in this in this direction you know community solar projects are something that we're seeing more and more for those you know folks who may have trees you know shading that they don't want to remove a tree here so i just may not have a roof that's that's well suited for solar they too can have access through what's called community solar projects where you put a centralized solar p v project in and you just contribute money in pay for that but you get the electrons  invest in yeah in energy technology i said this is very excited it's a great time because really it wasn't that long ago when there was all sorts of negative press about you know that would never happen and stuff and all of that one of the points of argument from the other side was well you know this will not create jobs we'll have to like the xcel pipeline to creating jobs which i think was very amusing to people who knew anything about that but the this seems to be creating or has the potential to create loads of jobs and whole new maybe careers is that true do you think that's absolutely true you just take the solar industry alone some one hundred seventy five thousand jobs supported by this industry across the country in every single state more than six thousand businesses whether you're solar installer whether you're a finance or in no of the systems whether you're a manufacturer or somebody who's supplying a supply chain into the manufacturing of solar p v panels or the equipment that's used to having all their just just a tremendous variety of jobs that are supported by that industry irish here and not to mention just the wind farms are the when stuff but also it's a fantastic opportunity for anybody entrepreneurial as well right i mean and inventive types because of the need to develop the technology and yeah you know an interesting stat that's always fascinated me me is a utility scale wind turbine has some eight thousand parts that are needed to me it up whether it's the nuts and bolts i think not hold the towers down or  of the components that go into a wind turbine are manufactured here in united states so it's bringing jobs it's sacramento right and it's state and that combined with like the solar as well that's creating actually creating a great many jobs that we had lost from industry moving overseas and so on i spoke yandell can be retrained that's exactly right right so this is a very hopeful thing as as well now that was one of the lines the fossil fuel industry that it would just be a disaster all around and so could we talk a little bit about the fossil fuel industry and what is driving this resistance they have all this money why  get on board to what is drive well you know as you know as i like to joke that we know that the clean energy revolution is really taking hold because we've seen the level of the fossil fuel industries opposition to the policies to the technologies just really increase and they've turned up the volume they've gotten really sophisticated in their opposition tactics and they've been doing this for decades certainly but they're really ratcheting up that opposition because i really i think deep down they do see a threat to their you know business as usual operating profit model we're seeing you know whether it's the fossil fuel industries share of market decline particularly the coal industry here has its market share has declined tremendously in recent years or if it's the utilities that are losing customers because they're putting rooftop solar on or because they're investing heavily in energy efficient technologies and in salacious in their homes reducing you know very very aid for electricity is really starting to i think  industry moving towards investing in clean energy technologies and taking that on and really seeing the opportunities to grow their their businesses that way but we do have a many who you know heads are still stuck in the sand  and are just going to i think push back and push back until the better intel they can disappear very curious thing you'd think they'd get on board you know that would be that the logical kind of a well they have a lot of money tied up right you know hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars to hide up in the fossil fuel industry right now and i don't think they want to let go of that just yet and so you know what we have now is this situation where we're right the technologies on the clean energy technologies are industry into a corner here and they're fighting back you covered this a bit this summer with the alec a come can you give us a little background on this because i think i put it on your event page on our website but i'd like people to know about that you write these blogs and so forth for the use c s and that you covered a lot of this but there were a couple of very good articles that you wrote this summer about that we may be some background on alec first of all and right sure w want to leverage their influence on state and state legislatures across the country and and congress and so rather than opposing  legislation themselves because renewable energy is so popular in the public space and companies you know have a certain amount of you know currency that they need to you know they need to be in order to be successful they need to be welcome in consumers homes they're not the ones who you know want to go out and publicly you know misrepresent science or or you know talk about their opposition to these technologies instead they fund what we call front groups and alec is a classic example of that to do their bidding for them so alec is very good at going into state legislatures finding you know like minded folks in the state legislature who want to you know push back on on clean energy policy and they give them you know information write legislation that will undermine or roll back the policies that have been driving renewable energy technologies and try to get those things passed under the guise of you know doing a service  two to informing helping to inform legislatures right and our job part of our job is to expose that you know the seats and misinformation that they're spreading about the policies that they're trying to undermine in the technologies that they're trying to undermine and to into really set the record straight with with legislature so that we can you know prevent them from rolling back these policies do you think that the public is of work to do right these few industries you know well funded and they can't afford you know an army of lobbyists yes and communications specialist and media specialists to go out there campaign is often hard to you know what they they all they need to do is so confusion and some doubt right and you know they've been very successful in that over the years we're starting to see cracks in that yeah which is encouraging but you know i still think we have a long way to go in terms of you know getting over the hump in terms of public the public being fully aware of truly the benefits of clean energy in and that these technologies can supply irritable reliable and clean electricity that will help grow our economy that's something that you know i think with every rooftop every home that i see that put solar on it these numerous deceptions we have this sort of get used to it with we know the whole routine now the nothing's been written about it but in even this is interesting i think that companies even left alec that's a huge organization and i think a very s many major corporations have been supporters about in the past but have stepped back because of alex missed information and deceitful tactics per primarily on climate change i think you know the advocates of clean energy have done a really good job of exposing alex tactics in putting pressure on companies that don't want to be seen aligned with with those with those tactics companies like wal mart like facebook more recently we've seen  shell show and b p both left alec saying that their position on climate change wasn't consistent with their own and you know that's you know really starting to see those kinds of you know remarkable shifts  in not just the public positions that these these companies are taking but also who they're funding behind the scenes that's the important thing right we've seen exxon mobil for example you know publicly state that they believe that you know that they accept the science of climate change and that humans are contributing to that yet they still you know continue to you know fund deniers and  other front groups that help push back and try to roll back clean energy policies and stop progress on the solution that they you know claim to you know except in want to try to solve the isn't that what the exxon mobil which came out big time here i'm really impressed with how much media attention that's gotten what do you predict from something just that just that alone big scandal like that at this time will that change the public well it's hard to tell right now i mean i think we you know you see yes my organization has tracking exxon mobil for over thirty years you know and they have you know really i think outlined their decades of think will you know force them to be more forthcoming in who they're funding for you know for research and science and it will open up the opportunity for further investigation that's that's the big thing right here i mean is ation and others are calling for an investigation is certainly warranted in exxon mobil and in other fossil fuel companies that have been major contributors to  our carbon emissions over the past several decades you know and that can take the form of a legislative investigation as state attorney generals we just learned a new york attorney general is opening up an what tactics they were using and they weren't alone and they were alone right and you know and we need to be able to hold each of these companies accountable for their share of the contribution that they've been making to climate change over over decades right i'd like to emphasize for our viewers to too that you see yes was one of the three major organizations to start explicit exposure to do a big report on it and i believe that doing weapon are this coming friday so this is tuesday i'll be sure to put the notice on the video about that but i urge people to check  we've got you know a number of experts and researchers looking into that have blogs and as you say we have some webinars available to the public right so there's plenty of information and you know this is an organization with top flight information in general here the so that is one thing the second thing we're in there is this trend of these big companies that originally were very much invested in this point of that this you know keeping big fuel there are changing and this seems to be a public relations thing also you look pretty good if you are wal mart and say we want to go green here this is a new thing yes gene you think you're going to see kind of move in that direction now this is going to be more popular yeah well it's we've already seen it to be perfectly honest i mean you know the fossil fuel industry does have their he els dug in electric utilities many of them have their heels dug in and started to see changes there but major corporations have you know for a number of years been moving away and from you know well moving she's moving towards a desire to be more environmentally friendly and and demonstrating that they are taking action to solve the climate crisis by investing in renewable energy technologies either through the purchasing of what we call renewable energy credits or more recently actually investing in wind or solar projects to to power their manufacturing facilities the the internet companies major internet companies like google amazon facebook to power their data center yes a lot of you know our there is a lot of energy in north carolina as is the has the fourth most solar p v installed in the country in  large part due to these data centers that have been located there in the company's desires to invest heavily in solar p v to power them so i think it's something on the order  of you know forty to fifty percent of the forbes one hundred largest corporations in the u s have you know renewable energy portfolios that they're investing in in one way or another so and that keeps growing you know month after month really we're see more companies take action you know no longer makes sense to you know we have to corporations i think see the financial risk of ignoring climate change you know whether it's insurance or you know other risks to their to their bottom line and i really starting to stand up and be leaders and that's i think a trend that they have a be tremendous just doing that's going to say these data centers really are energy hogs no question about it so for them to go to solar or alternative energies that is renewable energy that's a really big thing that's great yeah and not just going there themselves also putting pressure on you know state legislatures have to continue to you know maintain or strengthen policies that will drive this market in their states again just to pointing at north carolina it's one of twenty nine states in the country that have what we call renewable electricity standards which is you know a policy that requires utilities to gradually increase the amount of renewable energy in their power supply over time yes and you know it's been probably you know one of the two more most significant drivers of renewable energy here in the united states over the past decade to fifteen you know what ten to fifteen years and we've seen alec and some of the other fossil fuel front groups try to undermine and roll those policies yaf particularly in recent years including in north carolina but just this summer we saw the companies facebook and amazon and google all right to the state legislature actually was an open letter just saying you know we came to the state because of your policies to drive to support clean energy you know we hope that you don't you know turn around now and undermine those so you know in addition to the grassroots efforts that we have in place to protect and try to prevent these policies from going back we're seeing now major corporations step in and weigh in in big ways with legislatures and i think that's going to make a tremendous difference  in keeping the momentum going yes well i thought that there were a number of states do i have this confused that were fighting this you know they were going to have lawsuits and so but it sounds like this can turn around now in a minute especially with big corporate voices saying we want to do this yeah so where are you down on the other twenty nine states that have renewable electricity standards in the past eighteen months we've seen half of them  be be threatened by legislators who work with alec or working with the koch brothers front group for prosperity working with the heartland institute and a number of these front groups that like to create what we call an echo chamber this information is in fifteen states to try to roll those back you know we've been very successful in pushing back on those efforts you know only one state had they succeeded and that was in kansas and kansas it already become know the companies that have been supported you know the the farmers that are you know earning an income from leasing their priorities you know there are a number in there just a broad in deep bench of  people who are now touched by the clean energy industry in ways that you know either bottom line or you know are very very happy with the clean energy that they're producing and don't want to see those policies and in you know that's really creating sort of a tidal wave of meant i'm against the fossil fuel industry this momentum is really an interesting thing and speaking of that this is an election year coming up an predictions here in terms of the public mind we see this unbelievable resistance in congress to things that there are people who really don't see people managing fuels and so on what do you think in terms of the public will the public wake up here yeah i don't i don't make predictions on election guess sure i understand you die hard to do and i would i would be foolish for me to guess on that but i do think that it's becoming increasingly difficult for elected officials to stand up and you know publicly deny the science on climate change we're seeing you know a shift there were a lot of folks in congress will say well i'm not a scientist right folks some conservative folks you know really step out and say ok well you know accept the science but now we have to find you know smart solutions right and i think that so i'm hopeful that you know th  election will serve as a changing point for us to to really have a serious dialogue on the policy mechanisms that are needed in order to solve the climate crisis yes but there will always be not you know all sorts of problems there that's not so much as i was thinking of the united states compared to say european countries where the public accepts climate change that you know they have to change and so on and all the talking points are getting h paris in next month where every country's coming to the table with a commitment to lower their emissions right china has made a commitment now a significant one it gets harder and harder for us you know to say that  you know we're not going to lead on this on this issue internationally and you know the pope coming to the united states and talking around any anything climate change around the world issue you know really starts to me you know again pushing conversations about federal policy on the evidence to the public now is we need to have the public momentum in the public how do you read the public you go all over the country do all this writing you meet with people and nobody is better than you see yes for the sort of getting informing the public today you'd need you need to be a world citizen in many respects and we have to grow up and be informed but it's very necessary for given from a generation ago what has changed radically do you think we're up to it do you think the public will being able to become more informed and active yeah i  do i think so you know it's there's two pieces of that right i mean there's innovation in technology yeah will create opportunities for you know individuals to reduce their their own personal carbon footprints whether it's you know new light bulbs that yeah you know l e d s just three four years ago were too expensive today they're in unbelievable you know cost effective and you know they provide real economic benefit to homeowners and then the see that in action they say oh i can i'm benefiting from this you see more and more people put solar on their roofs you want to know more about that why did you do that oh you're saving money on that wow how can i get a hold of that right fuel  and you know i think people also want to do good for future generations you know whether it's you know some people care about energy independence here in the united states some people care about the health of their of their children and their children's children you know  some people you know really care about the in the environment or nature and conservation so no matter what your motivation you know there's a reason to be supportive of moving towards low carbon technologies and i think that's  that combined with their affordability is really going to make the difference so that telescope all very hopeful know and it has changed radically and rapidly i think so we have to hope that maybe there will be a lot of momentum yeah i do i do i am hopeful you know i you know i'm a realist too i understand that the fossil fuel industry is not going away overnight and they have a lot of money to spend on and that's when your basic strange you know it's our job to expose that to make it harder and harder for them for that practice to be acceptable and that's you know and that's our charge and you know once the public you know stands up and says that then will really start to see change right and that's an opportunity to say something about you for concern d concerned scientists excuse me which is probably one of the certainly one of the top organizations for providing information not just on this issue but a number of issues to the general public an doing first rate information in case people are not familiar with this anomic sure that i've got some little information on the video give us a little background on that would you please what the union of concern scientists sure were a national nonprofit science based organization that you know searching for you know a healthy planet a safer world we have we use scientific evidence and analysis and research to inform public policies and we do that at the state level federal level and internationally i'm in our climate energy program and that's what we've been talking a lot about this evening but we also have programs in cl issue that we focus on and we have what we call the center for science and democracy which is to you know intended to increase dialogues and improve sort of deep politicize science  public policy making at all levels of government decided about that is so were a member based organization we try to you know we work hard to bring not just scientists there we have a number of science  expert members but also concerned citizens informing them and giving them opportunities to weigh in on public policy direction we can't do that we really can't succeed without without their help to be honest so we try to inform the public the issue public our supporters our experts arm them with the you know the most relevant up to date information and go out there and try to change public policy to improve our our society so it's a first rate organization and as you say started that i think a lot of people are not aware that it started out with students and professors concerned very much about the nuclear issue decades ago now but still concerned about the nuclear issue for sure but they it really is a very fine organization before we close can i  ask how did you wander into union for of concerned scientists so i bet you see just now for coming up on seventeen years i went to grad school at boston university and was fortunate to you know timing is everything i was fortunate to get in the ground floor as an intern you see yes and continue to grow in the organization as the organizations grow yeah yeah it's you know it's a great place it's a very  dedicated committed work workforce and you know just would want to be with any other group of folks working on these issues so i've heard from everybody that i've ever met who has worked there but i've known a number of people that environmental other areas like this with strong commitments and they think that's the place i want to be you know so it is it's a real pleasure to talk with sub body from there and i think is there anything else that you would like us to cover before we close here you know i don't think so i mean i think we've covered a lot of ground you know and i guess i would just again reiterate you know that i feel like we are you know climate crisis we are going to have to deal with some change that has been locked in but you know but i'm hopeful that we will get on the right track and make the progress that we need to yes i hope we can do this too because it has to prove rather quickly now but there does seem to be much more commitment watching for this meeting coming up here at the center national meeting next month and of this month the next month hope that we'll see a real commitment