time i have two ideas about how we might provide some leadership on two topics for the city and i just wanted to go down that grant tree quest forms with regards to date if they're there post is that under consented yeah well we wait til we get there so we get there because we can pull that out when we get there perfect to discuss  our next item if that's all the additions deletions whatever changes possibly enter executive session to discuss legal and personal matters clued appointments to  relations negotiations with employees and confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing professional eagle services to this council would clearly place a seat at a substantial disadvantage ok any discussion  on from there ok thank you agenda is there anyone in the audience who wishes to say anything that is not on the agenda all right seeing nine we'll move on to item five announcements in the city managers heard from probably seven maybe eight different residents about the potholes and i got to say the fact that we increase the paving budget really sells well for this because next year could be another twenty five thousand dollars to address it and i know judge justin is on the matter but i would just say the potholes are causing quite a lot of damage to be equals out there i have a friend that got the room and so i just want to relay that another resident raise concerns about the mattresses hidden backpacks and activities in the property in lands around rick market central school i don't know what that means for how we might be able to have increased concerning activity during school hours in the the surrounding grounds around rick market central school extra have they shared that with this in the woods i encourage them to actually contact the police yeah so and then the last thing patrick would you please here but he did want to stick around and i just said that i would plug this and if you all want to say as well i'm hoping to go i think i need to be in montreal but saturday march tenth the great fundraiser a fun event for south really to residents all the money goes to a scholarship it's just a time to celebrate our youth and their interest in arts so this information's all over the place saturday march tenth semi formal coat and tie is adequate kids are welcome kid friendly i think that's great so  i'm very glad i went there was you know i got to talk with some people haven't seen for a while and different topics that are discussed in other business but i also want to commend management for the staff for the presentation it always helps me to hear it a second or third or fourth time in a nice clear sort of concise and direct way to let the business community know what's happening in there's a lot happening in the community for which they appear pretty grateful happy so i thought that was a really good use of your time and i look forward to when we sit down as a round table with them to discuss further but we can do to help the business climate in this community and what they might bring to the table as we look to you know encourage other businesses to relocate here or be part of city center and those kinds of issues that are  for setting up the room i'm came in yesterday sick as a dog and set up the room so i think it's great to see that organization active and growing and adding content here you're meeting with them and around table setting we're still working on a date for that but it's looking like mid march last week just in leather tour of the city center park and so half a dozen of the staff or more went out and walked around the park last week and there's an enormous amount that's been done so when the men begin back in the spring when they're ready to build again it's not going to take too long for that to be completed as being inconsistent with their guidelines of how taxes are to be used maybe and came up with an interesting idea i think that we should explore further about directing that money if it comes in to abatement programs  and we should talk about that more trevor is not with us tonight because he is at the white house trevor chairs a panel of first responders who recommended the president medal of valor winners and that award happened today and so trevor was down there as part of that award ceremony so our own trevor roopa leading a nationwide panel that chooses medal of valor winner this is quite a feather in his ca ok thank you i didn't six were five minutes early when we moved to item seven are there any reports from committee assignments pat isn't here and i forgot to mention she just was not well enough to join by phone tonight so she apologizes and wishes she could have joined us by phone but is unable to and i i think there might have been an airport meeting that she might have reported on but she's not here i don't have anything for channel seventeen tom transportation always happy to talk to her bus it's about g m t we had a meeting this morning looking at different funding models for medicaid to make a little more equitable and also just finished summarizing the survey on g m and the general motors first your question i'm just wondering if you have questions about g m t might be more useful these times for you to channel them to kind of equate in my mind to the amount of funding that we provide and that i mean that's a conversation that needs to happen i think with i guess both south burlington and the hospital and g m t about what it will take to really make that easy bus transportation specially if they are in large ing it i mean their plans are again it might take two years to get the permits and then another year to build the building but they're they want to expand their employer turi care to fill the drive and right now as i understand it for lots of people in south burlington to get fear they have to take a bus downtown and transfer to take a bus to tilly's drive so we're round trip just for a doctor's appointment maybe i don't know what that  read the book is that our i mean these are the types of situations where you can get really creative with with solutions right so i mean i mean i just saw on c b s news report about a nonprofit that drives people to their doctor's appointments right so people volunteer to drive people to doctor appointments because they they find that when they get to their like for example their chemo appointments they get their treatment and they tend to recover him at a better rate so the question is if you're trying to get people to doctors where but until the dr is it about getting g m t to send a bus they're like three times a day or is it something about trying to organize people who have free time and they've got a car and take people that need because people can't drive themselves those are the that's the population we're talking about right so it's just that kind of thought the just drives me nuts when we have to try to organize a big box to go around in a circle you know like that we talk about they are going there well i just think there's ways that i would agree that creativity is would be perfect so maybe tom can bring back to the t m t board that you know i think we're community right for looking for some create creativity to support maybe the hospital should be like co sponsoring cooper lift yeah right to get people to there are they need to be part of the conversation as a weapon i don't think it's just south burlington in g m t i think wants to drive to the hospital search around for parking or pay for very expensive parking to take a bus to chili drive i mean that is it makes sense to me so maybe looking for other satellites satellite in city's public nuisance ordinance so i have a motion in a second all in favor and group interval the city attorney the proposed amendments that we went through there are three three of them at the first reading that we discussed these well are intended to accomplish the following in the city's public nuisance ordinates number one and then clarify what constitutes a public nuisance related to noise plainly audible from dogs and cats and restricting those hours to between eight pm and six am expand the hours when trash pickup and removal would constitute a public nuisance from eight pm through six am to eight pm through seven am and number three exempt noise from a permitted use in a political zoning district of the city's land development regulations provided it complies with the regulations specific performance standards for that district the thought here was to take it out of the nuisance and police department as the issuing authority in those instances when performance standards under the l d r is aren't being met and this would transfer again over to a enforcement authority of ok i just have a question my understanding of our discussion was that there would be quiet hours through seven am for everything i don't think we picked on the trash i thought it was also for cats and dogs as well as it was the other noisy thing that trashed loud speakers and here it is the noise resulting from excavation demolition erection construction alteration or repair of any premises or structure as well as the operation of any power equipment or machinery outdoors i don't know if i misunderstood but my understanding was that we were looking for a uniform hour in the morning before which this type of noise would not be permitted a member some talk about that remember that discussion but i wasn't i don't recall whether it was  here i would be more sensitive to the dog and the cat outside supposed the trash so just so i i voted for this thinking that it was a blanket just that was my intent is the capt and dog is between eight pm and six am that's how it was amended yeah right and you times that's part of my question since this discussion about trash collection i've had a meeting with justin rabbit who opened my eyes and said that partly why trash haulers like to serve at six am as they beat the traffic so it's a lot more efficient on their routes and so i completely understand that that makes a lot of sense to me i also recently had a meeting with tom rowe who said this makes sense but will it make more sense is if we rolled into a larger conversation about consolidated service which i understand that eighty percent of the disparities in this country have and also other parts of vermont coming upon a public street for the purpose of commercial advertising so as an ice cream trucks speaker that you can hear two blocks away playing a song would that be in violation it's a good question because we also have a separate permanent process for or do you find that harking back to your childhood and quite nice if there are times when it is annoying especially depending upon the song they choose to play regulating the song want to steer clear it's good to hear him having all right any other clarifying questions on the ice cream truck which is germane i would just say that our last discussion on this topic we have a rogue ice cream truck vend three thirty after when people's trash isn't picked up so but so the that want to you have to realize that one hour in the morning to us when we speak for my company is huge that one hour gives us probably up to two and a half hour of the energy because if we push that one hour back to seven the transfer stations close at three thirty we can we will not be able to dump our trucks at three thirty we also will be later in neighborhoods it will put us in the neighborhood twice a day with children not once a day so in the afternoon we try to finish our route which doesn't always happen we try to finish by two two thirty we need to make the transfer station by three thirty to dump trucks so we're ready to go the next day so a seven o'clock in the morning if we're one hour again keep in mind one hours to ourselves so at seven o'clock in the morning if we start at seven o'clock in the morning we've got my biggest concern is now the safety of my drivers we will be in the heart of the traffic and then we're back in the market part of the traffic in the afternoon so i know everything's a give and take and it's you know we've got a company i've got a company or run yacht the end of the day what would transpire if it doesn't move the seven we're going to put more men on the streets to meet at three thirty that we have to dump now from at three o'clock or two thirty go from here to the transfer station i will be at three thirty if we leave right here at three o'clock we might make it if we don't make it we can't jump to the next day which pushes further behind so bad weather snowstorms there's a there's another problem but we got to think about the safety of our drivers that are in the traffic that we try to keep out of we try to mend so they're out of traffic so it's more than just that you know that one honking of horns six o'clock or seven o'clock in the morning i think there's a little bit more to it why we we need to change until seven o'clock it will be huge on us more trucks more traffic more cost looking for one hour like you know we probably get without exaggeration we probably have anything else to add mike to sell because of the way so i think just to reiterate something that jeff said i think we're pretty much on the same page with everything and i think the biggest thing is that that safety factor for all the residents you're now making it most cities in large cities they're picking up the trash at midnight you know to to get the work done and i get that hour doesn't seem like much and you know people do want to get their sleep but at the same point in time if that hour comes at the cost of putting kids in people that risk i don't see where that risk is worth the inconveniences and i don't know what you guys have for numbers if there are that many people calling saying that there's there's this real issue with with noise out there but i know we're not allowed in some say some municipalities early in the morning and and i still hear you know the music playing loud and other things like that that keep you up at night so i i think from a safety standpoint that's really what i'd like to i think it will take more time more trucks on the world more carbon emissions because we're going to be sitting there idling and other things like that that you know you're just adding more cost of the system and adding more risk every one that's out in the environment so  just clarify in terms of the safety i think i'm hearing there's two issues one is that your drivers will be driving these huge trucks and picking up and dumping this stuff in in potentially heavier traffic for a longer period of time the other issue or the school bus the kids getting either walking to school or getting on the school bus so we will be i mean that's still happens now but lease she get two hours before an hour and a half before that really people are either heading to work heading to school heading to to wherever they're heading there day you've basically condensed our starting time to right in the busiest time so obviously from an exposure standpoint you're you know we try to route our trucks more efficiently to keep them out of the really dangerous areas because we don't want to put our drivers or anyone at risk so we're already trying to do that systematically when we look at our routing and other things like that and moving out of those areas but you're you're basically crunching that time that we have to to get there and what he said a lot of our drivers aren't getting done till four or five o'clock at night as it is anyways and then you add snow and ice and road conditions and it can add a lot of  state i mean i think for us it's the transfer station is i mean we leave trash our trucks all the time and dump the next morning and that is an issue but i think the bigger issue is that time window you're moving us into is is exactly when people are having to work and when all the traffic is you know we've got certain areas where we know we need to be there at a certain time which is going to boil because there are other issues you go ahead so i love the safety piece that's absolutely important but my other question tied to this i raise this partly of president's friends that live on very street and so in the summer times they hear a lot of trucks multiple trucks throughout the week and so i'm curious what your reaction ocean to rather than changing these hours is there a form of consolidated service where you'd see a lot of operational efficiencies you'd also see increased safety because we have as fewer trucks serving the same geographic areas while still maintaining competition and bidding for raw exclusion in certain geograph so so the amendments are just as in front of you understand they are if you want to make any any changes and recommend coming back for another hearing on march nineteenth know we were hoping to get some uniformity so because there were a lot of stock types of different titles i mean well who we have to go i see you want to make i guess people can't let them out till seven  but for whatever reason i don't know what it was each one of these respective request forms but again this is your your authorization to him well of course i'm through thirty thousand seventeen talk about some of the highlights of the hundred forty pages of information you know sitting on your website right now we'll talk about some of the management talking points and certainly answer any and all actions that you may have pleased to have to say that you have about an operating general fund budget of about twenty three million dollars we'd like to see with thirty sixty to ninety days of that you have about fifteen days you know right  fifteen which is it will have about nine hundred thousand dolls the good news is last year about you know so you've improved your financial condition over that we still want to see you get to that thirty days i think that that's an important that number to thirty days is one point eight million tons correct about one point seven one point eight million so we want to just see that that puts you that that puts you on the average and certainly right within the industry standards  you're thirty sixty ninety days and the thing about the city is really did you walk parade i would argue probably almost every you know i book of business that a a city could run you know from the utility departments of water waste water stor water and that really you know i think really emphasizes the funny actual stability of you because of all the other operations that you run the truck with that you don't do trash can and so so i think that that's important you know to to to bring that up because i think he has a very healthy utility problems and that's why i'm i'm i'm concerned you know but not as concerned if you didn't have healthy other utility departments i think that would put more emphasis on your general fund financial stability of that but you have health utility departments you have other mechanisms if you run into problems here in the city to be able to revert to to hold life or you know in essence to take care of an emergency or phone call whether it be your city funded a special reserve that's not attached to a statutory or some ordinance you know that you have to do with the restriction of those monies and that actually happened about six or seven years ago when we ran into the issues here in the city with with using thousand dollars you know the fund needed expense that's the dynamic you know financial you know opportunity that you've created here the city is to be able to use those monies to mitigate hardships to mitigate cashflow know knows and certainly has you know that information readily available to bring you this counseling at any time you know whether or not the practice going on or not and it's not so without your intent to do certain things out there so  special day educated funds out there that really kind of eases the sense of urgency to get there overnight you know you could you're not going to get there you know overnight we're trying to go from above eight days to fifteen days to twenty eight days to thirty is just not you know practical and some of these reserve funds they allow you in buying some time you know but i still think that the city needs to certainly have that plan to get to that thirty days and i think that that's an important goal you know for the city and then i think with the stability of some of the other funds that you have it certainly puts you now in an above average state you know because i think that some of the you know some of the problems that we see out there in the world of government some of these struggling utility departments you know the ability to have all this infrastructure but not me tame not to care and that's not a problem here in the city you know you've got adequate reserves you've got infrastructure you've been vested in to your infrastructure and i think that puts busy busy place so so yeah that's certainly something that i will say this is a talking point it's been a talking point for the past three or four years but the good news is is you are headed in that right direction really and that's something as obligations you have this this this this benefit that exists in the city you know for retirees and active employees where they're allowed to confer some of their benefit time for like health insurance and other types of benefits you're actual wearies crunch those numbers the value of no i will just let you know is about seven hundred thousand dollars for your retirement benefits and about three point three billion dollars for your active benefits office or actuarial crunched numbers that basically say that know you know when it comes time to you know anybody that exercises that clause in that you know in that collectively money and in addition to that the city's unfunded pension obligations about six point seven but the market and the economy certainly you know has had its peaks and valleys of which you know you have fallen into but long term you know that money is there more confident at the end of the day that that was the right thing to do for the city oh no i think that you would have paid out mega of hundreds of thousands of dollars even prior to now just interest by not infusing that money in there you know you would of and that obligation probably would be a larger than what it is right now were but at the same time you also work funding what was necessary to fund your obligations and your share of what that was and you got a double whammy so that influence infusion of cash certainly mitigated that from happening and i think certainly reduce the the interest for lack of a better way to to say it on the premium that you are paying for that unfunded obligation clearly so so the obligation now is it looks different you know it's not to the you know of the city we started this process some time and you have a you have a very fast growing and busy getting to be busy teth you know i think that that certainly we will be that here about w there you know we do get a need even though that one right now but you know that's active and that's dynamic this city's a busy place you know it really is and i think that you know when you add the element of that that makes you busy  some some other talking points of the we like to say we started this process some time may you know of last year july i think that we've had constant contact with your management monthly you know we have a very hands on relationship with you all and then sometime this past i think early fall you probably would have got a letter from us on a payroll matter you know that we certainly advise and gave advice to to management that i know that you were privy to and that was a concern you know that was that was a concern it wasn't and as part of our management comments we issued a separate letter under that just because we felt the necessity to do that i would like yes i would love the copies of letters too and i don't see that in this package its intentions are so so intentional because i was already issued under a separate letter so our management letter and that came up this morning i'm as well as act two and we deliver that to you in many different ways and it's the form of correspondence you know so so one of the things that we in your mind we're discussing didn't rise to internal control it rose to a deficiency where we actually separate we actually separated that from these other matters because of the efficiency that it represented and put that into a separate letter which i would look to get copies of those letters you know those public documents or we never got anything in writing but that's fine noticeable to look a little bit at those details sims so again management letter responded to that one fast and really mitigated the financial exposure to that one really fast that's not a that's not a deficiency in internal control rising to the level being included it's just just so we're clear it was and it was issued in a separate you all spent a lot of time and attention in that matter and as you read that letter that we cited you know that very matter yeah we went into some detail on that so so and we actually helped and worked and i'm confident that you guys have you know  responded is the best way i can say it a question came up to me at a board meeting today ron can you look with certainty you know say it will happen again no i can't mistakes happen external influences impact a lot of things you know and i'm not saying you know that that it won't happen again then if you could speak a little bit to the concern about relational complacency and auditor cycling in independence and what you do at your organization to address those industry standards and concerns about every five years cycling so i have the pleasure of working with through to professionals that question came up this morning i really feel that i got cut off who you know but as far as the question that came up as tom just suggested you know the concern in our profession is complacency you know is is using the same and utilizing the same firm you know right thing to do and best practice and there's actually a g f o a opinion on this the government finance officers association where they've come out and said because of the specialty you know the nature of this industry and the lack of auditors that understand this industry you know that the recommendation is you know is that no you know provided that the auditing firm as you know safeguards in place you know such as auditor rotation which we do every two years of our company and we actually rotate out the audit managers every two years that we rotate in the testing people you know every year you may see my face but i'm nothing more than a base of the people that actually signs us engagement signs off of it based upon the work and i would argue and you can check with your management there's new conversations that happen every year so to avoid that complacency and to and to get in line with the g f i way and this auditor rotation that's our way you know of getting you know into you know  the getting it into getting out of the complacency matt and i equate our relationship to doctors you know when you have a specialty medical practice if you have a relationship with that doctor and you believe that that doctors understand you and treat you we  would equate the same thing to our relationship with you all this is a specialized industry there's not a lot of people you know that specialize in this practice when you get our auditors that come here there are thirty people in our company that we rotate on jobs that no one hundred percent of these this profession they're not tax accountants they are auditors and they understand government we do over five hundred governments so that's one of the responses and the  the question you know that you had asked me today and i say the same thing as is our reputation is everything you know we would not put a client above our reputation and certainly we are firm believers and being very very proactive you know to you know to the problem you're not going to go see a tax accountant when you need an audit matter redirected when you have problems but they specifically addressed you for your whatever condition it is you're going to go see a specialist and we were f the specialists we live the world of government we know what's going on out there you know i got nominated to a national committee one of two people in this country that serves on the yellow book advisory committee so understanding that i consider myself a specialist as i'm only one of two do and i'm going to get a national award here the side of the spring so that that that's nerdy for me but that's the ultimate commendation that you can get in my profession you know and i think that that comes with you know the being a specialty  acknowledged by your peers and my my state acknowledged me you know to represent the small business accounting firms of this country you know so i get to go to april have my exit conference and in may i get my award in acknowledgment i'm proud of that and i'm proud have two year two one year annual options to renewing our contracts that haven't been exercised yet and that will certainly be at the discretion of the city i guess my question actually was more in terms of the company or the communities that audit do they how many times do they renew your contract like i've got to i've been doing this perfect years so well and i think i'm proud of this as well when i left the other company twenty one years ago to start this company i took over one hundred fifty governments with me today i retain one hundred thirty one of our company with those governments so i'm proud of that record as well  years ago and i built the practice continue to build it so so again i think that my old employer may not be happy with me but certainly certainly i'm proud of the reputation that you know that follow me to this company i'm proud of the thirty two people that i work here with and i'm proud to rotate them into jobs so they have to do so without getting into the weeds about the second management layer later about that deficiency the irregularity that was that was found  do you have any insight as to why you might not have detected that the previous audit couple of things we're talking actually about the guts of and putting payroll information of our audit does nothing more you know then confirm and validate best practice to how these numbers got on the financial statements not to the intricacies of setting up you know the clock it deductions not to the interest the intricacies of going in and verify that five hundred employees you know  deductions were on a health insurance bill and those people should have been doing that is to do nothing more than sample based upon the numbers that exist in the hundred thirty five pages on that and test transactions this is something that you might want to be doing it other and  audit and and as and as far as that goes you know i think that there are some things that we learned through this process for sure but i think makes us unique and cutting edge but no we're not going to go look to see how you opened up your bank account or or when you you know touch here or switched insurance carrier or whatever it is that the right people followed over that somebody that retired that's not an any odd it program you know that exist out there and i don't think i think it would be just for the last frivolous of us to throw the resources you know what those type of things i'm working so conserve your bank accounts get reconciled i'm also concerned the years and purchase orders more so conservative ok is there something that happened through this process that we should have you know that we should got i think we beat that one to death i think that the fact that your management caught it you know something worked you know but at the level that it rose to in the drilling down for lack of a better way to get to the actual issue of the but we did take some things and actually add it to our audit program for sure absolutely yes so getting down to the matters that you were discussing that auditors are focused with and i'm glad for this discussion but you have here in the purchase order some purchase orders are being issued after the invoice or product is received by the city and i'm glad for that amount of detail i think that's important for us to know i have full confidence in the leadership of the city but i do think that just like you know the claim that auditors and auditing firms can become complacent i think that there can be complacency on both sides absolutely so i just wanted to to note that and percent or so for cities governmental activities one point two two percent but if you include you know public safety public works kept cetera at six point four six percent our expenses so above revenues i'm sorry yes right yes i mean that's what you're talking about we're spending we're spending more than we're putting in taking it right so i would say that's a fair statement with government in general  guess just i think that what i would hope is that we take this forward and really really ask of you know the people who work for the public here that we drew have an accounting of new initiatives i would really for instance the mental health collaborative i just learned this morning that we were contributing funds to that and i think i just would like to see that fine print just like we for the dispatch you know we saw the contract with all kinds of fine detail and i think i would like to see the fine detail and i understand that it's in the budget that money's there and that you're not going over but i still i just want to know what we're in for what communities you know are contributing how much these this kind of detail i think is that our belly wick that's what we do have a draft  will you get that and are you saying meghan just i can understand it to my role you know our role at our company i mean is that something you'd like to see like it like is that supplementary information in your financial statements to and i think for new initiatives noon undertaken and what's the cost and i just know from my channel seventeen work when you know and you're still working perhaps or not but and you know when there are new initiatives and you have to invest in a new initiative i think that may be a city feels is valuable you know for for a sup lisa supplementary information it's not required but if you feel that that's necessary and valuable that's a schedule that we can add to your financial statements for sure and i'm not to creating this i mean we'd have to talk about it but that would be that would be something that a lot of times what people like to see as property tax collection rates you know how do you compare how do you compare the first three months how do you compare them from the next three months and you know over the course of the year that's a piece of supplementary information some people find more valuable than others so go i mean we can put any document in there but what you see here now is this problem will get it by standards you know and you know certainly if the city saw some value in supplementary information we could add supplementary information ok tim i think it that's the old name of the form but when you are employed by your employer before you are issued compensation you're required to verify that you are a u s citizen you know or and produce documentation as required proof that you have to significance of the letter in the department of the u s federal government that promulgated you know what that form is to be used for and and really who generates that who is the gatekeeper of it and i ben nine would be homeland security now which is under the department of defense of the ability to you know to to to to pay early to increase cash flow what's my take on it all depends on where we're at it all depends on what your financial position is and i don't recommend that you know now if the city is burlington given your general fund  condition i think it's a good idea i think it's a good concept but i think that that's something that would get to if our law so for sure you don't see that we need that now i think it's something that i think is an absolutely great thing to offer for your citizens and do i think that if you could it is now the time you know for the city's out but do it something that i think that you know should you should put on you know as a goal just like it is to get the thirty days absolutely that will help you get at the thirty days easier you know but certainly i think it's a goal and i think it's an incentive you know that can mitigate some other things so so yeah and you know the question it was just one knowing comment that we all knew that it was going to be a tight here in the general fund and we monitored it really close i think we had thirty five thousand dollars to the good of what didn't come out with it and they were off like within probably two thousand and fifteen hundred dollars that's why i say i'm here i'm here to confirm what being what you've been told that as you can remember you know back in two thousand and eleven or twelve but the information that was given to you certainly i would question some of the reliability back in some of the past councils you know but for the past six or seven years you have definitely worked out internally to get to these talking points here right now you know so that you would be proud of it really you know i think of the city's come a long way to get the best practice and these conversations six years ago seven years ago they weren't you know some of the they were comfortable you know sitting up here and and telling you about your shortcomings and to be able to sit here and tell you about some of the things you doing right you know even absent of that payroll problem you caught you know that's a good story and hopefully we can reduce and mitigate it from happening again in the future so if there's comments or questions thank you very much i think it's been a great pleasure which kids it's a good report to read well was it so good one report it was a big long report no kidding ok moving on to item ten receive and discuss the petition related to the reopening of the south burlington dog park located in g c park please come up to the table and state your caused the closure and actually i don't really i don't find it so mentioning a dog or cat but it's not like mentioning dog parks or anything like that  so i'm just i'm just lost and i want to appreciate if you could give us more insight like on that just like what triggered the decision to close the dog park because of this noise complaint any comments that you would like to mean i i have been stopping i've stopped my long one started talking to people more than i ever did there's a lot more traffic there can never be who lives in that area they know they're at a park you know when you go to buy a house and you see it would spark across the street everybody's kind of aware that you're at a park and it's not necessarily going to be the quietest area in town so the thing is if you go to get a house it's borders an interstate or something you know kind of what it is and we know that to me and hopefully obviously have some kids off and we enjoy it for that aspect of the community aspect and that nice folks i met in doing this and i've never met before and i'm stopping in talking to people that i never talk to and even not necessarily dog owners it's just really opened up the community and i just never thought it on park would bring a total community in these days but i think that's what we need has people talking with each other now i need more privacy i need to not talk to my neighbors i need a quieter i think we need more you know bumping you if you want oh you know of course we don't get along in our things but there's so many more advantages i feel i just want to push myself to come here and talk about it because it's important and you know raising kids and having them in that kind of community and show we know that i mean we go trick or treating in that area that's really rich and the kind of neighborhood stuff that i've never seen in a long time and and having a dog people have to go in their car i wasn't here at the meeting where the decision was made but i certainly was here when as a council we discussed quite a few times the need for dog parks and i make it plural because i think this entire council feels that we need more than a single dog park in the community of this size and i know i for one have brought up the issue often when we talk with or speak with developers around the city center another development you know what are you allowing you know your renters to have dogs and then so what's what's the deal with the dogs what are you doing to make that a place that won't intrude on other people's enjoyment i guess but also recognizes that dogs need exercise and they need to eliminate that typically it's done outside so what are the issues so i think we all believe that it's it's really important in terms of the process we also found  for for the dogs and while i personally didn't believe that that probably was the best place for a dog park and we've had that happen twice once and patch and road and then at the airport so it's clear that we were looking for that we needed to look for some permanent spaces that the city control and some of the spaces we control are the parks and that's frankly why we looked at the park it was  kind of a quick decision i think there was some timing in terms of winter was coming for the fall and we wanted to get moved the fencing from near the airport to a place and create it i think what we didn't do as a council and you know i take responsibility for that along everyone else we didn't really have the conversation with any neighborhoods or even dog owners in particular about what are some of the requirements about dog parks people would mention other parks like the one shelburne really beautiful or you know some other c but we didn't sit down as a council and say there are some things that are to be included in dog parks if we're going to site them on our own property so in a sense we backed into this we also found at the same time some land that was available at the federal park and we kind of i think went forward rapidly without  i don't think you would have found i think everyone you want to talk to is a great well you know what we you know so i'm not i'm not saying it should a short cut of them but i'm saying that i don't know if it would have resulted in a different  a temporary site for the recommendation of our director of parks and recreation so it was never intended to be a permanent site it was intended to serve an area in the city that had enjoyed a dog park off curvy road extension and that that was closed so quickly but i think that what we've learned is that the lack of process has really cost us the long run it gave you something that we had to then take away and i am happy to explain that not all neighbors were satisfied with that location and there were confrontations that were occurring between people and that that i was afraid was going to end up in an arrest and and that was because of the improper process and i don't want to take it it was a well i mean we're all aware of one problem only the one complaint because i don't think knives and i don't think going to find anybody would say that was the perfect you're not going to get consensus on on that location and all but but the bullying tactics of that i'm sure you all have e mail specifically from individual to heart you know there's personal things i deal with part related when the kids come crying and in the house because they've been sworn out and whatever the case and their neighbors and i dog reaction ways because of certain tools that are being used by a neighbor and it's sad to see the dog in that you know manner one bark is about ten below bourne's worth of punishment for that i don't want to go but but i'm saying in our kind of if you're making that decision on the one person now i'm making it because it should not be close to residential areas and i don't see why not if if the people never residents all want it there sat there how many want to petition do you need time do you need anybody well i mean how many more signatures would make it clear because i have we have a good pulse of the neighborhood of that area the ones that are affected by that and enjoy that and we're not getting that concerned here in town i just want to say on i completely agree with you we need more dog parks and i think that could dilute this concentration of barking if we focus close neighbors have been consulted on this and they were they were supportive of it so that's ok so maybe we could have done more all i'm saying is in the defense of the city i heard them say that they did do some outreach in africa i definitely still stand by what i was that night which is i'm for supporting of moving it that this wasn't perfect location let's focus on finding better locations the dog park i just i still don't think we should close a perfectly good dog park while we're looking for that space i just see it still seventy thousand dollars of taxpayer money that is just sitting there idle and so i still support opening it with the caviar that i think we need to comprehensively look at our dog our solutions and find the location and then relocate this is soon as we come to agreement as to where th i don't that's why i didn't but i guess i will say that going forward are full agreement by the council was that we really do need to come up with guidelines and some process not to just say oh here's some some empty space that the city owns let's throw up some fencing and call it a dog park and not that that may very well be true we're hoping however with the committee that we've created created and the work that they're doing to develop some guidelines that we then have something to work with that we can share with the public we can have a public hearing about those guidelines and get feedback about them and then we can go forward and really look at the spaces the land that the city currently owns and what can be a reasonable spot for some additional dog parks for the i mean the most extreme is do we need to use some open space money to buy property to create dog parks and different parts of the city to to meet the president needs so we're hoping to go forward in a much more kind of reasoned logical way and i know that doesn't address your concerns but that is the the was put there but we went through all the documentation and when that was presented you never said it was a temporary site so i'm going to question as you know you have wrong information or mean really and that's what you came up with i mean you know i just find it pretty like i feel like you're lying to me i'm sorry you feel that way and you're wasting our time we're here to see if police go through and work on this i mean this is so at the end of this that we're more people i will make a motion that we reopen the dog park until we find a new space and open up another dog park itself really but i don't i'm not optimistic that you're going to g his for a week and actually recording can have some really very instead of some of this oh i heard you know the barking i mean to put that somewhere we can identify you know larry here with her yeah i mean saying this but i think i have to be said for me to have participated in this edition that put any resident in and unlivable situation is not acceptable for me this is not an essential service that we are providing it is a dog park that we need and that we need to put in a proper location so if mr plourde you want to have a dog park in your backyard and your neighbors bless it let's open your backyard and i believe him unfortunately our actions inflamed the neighbors dispute and i i feel very badly about that and we cannot correct that by just throwing more oil on the flames i'm sorry can travel so i mean like everybody i don't think we should the reason him and to comply oh it's just so basically like what we learned in our meetings like of the dog park times force meeting that distance to residents is essential and if there are noise burials and there are noise variance ajay's the dog park and other properties are more exposed and they haven't complained so i just feel that noise is really hard to measure and everybody needs to like taken seriously and it's not like yes of course he has issues and it needs to be taken seriously but we have an issue to and we should should have a chance to like make our point i talked to the president the homeowners association of corey ridge and apparently there is a park there that people used to walk their dogs or let their dogs off leash and he shared with me in addition to his disappointment that the park was closed his agreement that dogs and noise an issue including in the park in cory ridge and so i do not think that this is something that is unusual i think it is something that is quite common that is why it is ordinances we have the care of cats and dogs or nuns and we have the noise the nuisance or switch you brought with you tonight and noise is a subjective quality there's no measurement that will say once you get here that's noise it's for each individual so i'm just going to reiterate that for our actions to have brought disturbance of the nature that a product of this neighborhood we are responsible we made a mistake and i don't think that going back and making it a second time is going to make a better and how much does that cost five thousand dollars total five thousand we're going to be able to  he's not the president of j c park and we don't have right right so i'm just saying for the area of land that is under his jurisdiction i said would you be open to turning that into a dog park and he said well i don't know and that's the problem so i think our hope is that the task force will come up with guidelines one of which will most likely be potentially will be that a dog park can't be situated any closer again if it's close to some houses we're back into the situation where someone who lives near that new lucky dog park complains about the noise  v m and the second time by the airport we made a decision the staff level supported on a general basis by the council that we needed to put a dog park on our own property so we can't get kicked out anymore and th now it's just sitting there empty so what will happen but well if we signed another one we'll pull up the fencing and use as much as we can in the next part of what is t so i don't have a time frame for you until the work is done and so if i could and i i'm an advocate like helen and i think all of us on the on the board are for dog parks and so i encourage you to use your focus and your energy to really let it happen and make it happen and let the task force know that you have that they have advocates because it's not going to be easy i don't i mean i know you've heard tonight a counsellor and this morning one counselor who went to listen for himself there are members of the city employees who went to listen for themselves i do not think it was just one phone call that led us to make the decision i don't know if i'm going to convince you of that otherwise i'm not accusing anyone of breaking any laws in fact i didn't want anyone to get arrested that was my biggest concern that we not act quickly enough to avoid an arrest fletcher a fair amount of research over the years on title and permit in history and we are nature park and a number of the parcels that surround think as real or par now is approximately about ninety eight years of land not counting the twenty two acres that recently came in as part of the g m golf land swap and not counting the twenty five acres to minute ok but just for the the introduction we're talking about traditionally what we've talked about as we are know as we all are nature park in the city the first and foremost is the city's at least and the bond funds would also be used for recreation improvements for the dorset streaker now veterans memorial park north of that since that time the city has at least established a practice of police station at swift dorset on about sixty acres of land it went to the voters because it felt that the the bond authorization to buy the land limited the city's use of the wheeler nature park of the c parcel recreational uses so the city is a stablished the sort of practice that it would like to use the coffins partial for anything other than recreation it would at least seek voter approval to do so  whether that's advisory or mandatory we could talk about the leader of time aside from that sort of existing practice or historical practice of the city there's fourteen point four of the caucus parcel just to the east of the homestead the house south and south of swift street that has been set aside as off site many for prime x oil impacts through act two fifty seventy percent fourteen point four and there's there's a map doesn't it in this area the history behind this is it is tied into the city's acquisition of twenty five acres to the northwest of a creek village back in the mid one nine hundred ninety s and as part of that deal in order for the developer to build the houses on fox run lane which was about fit the third phase of a creek village it required the deal was that the city would bank soil as mitigate prime axles as mitigation for the impacts for the development of the seven acres of housing off fox wrongly the mitigation formula is currently and back then was that for each acre of primary state wide soils that you are going to impact under two fifty is part of development you need to bank double that for and that was at that time it was double so for the seven acres of development going on your fox room linda city was forced to bank fourteen acres protective of primary agricultural soils you are allowed to just like with say wetlands impacts you're allowed to mitigate those impacts by doing essentially offsite mitigation and that's what happen last through act two fifty you place a permit condition on those fourteen point four acres that limits its use or do it in perpetuity or until you go back to the district commission and ask them to amend the water to normally that's critical permit conditions which are difficult or challenging to amend for these fourteen point four acres the use restrictions are no buildings or structures the city may be able to build rec pass or picnic areas with approval of the district commission no fill excavation or grading no use of motorized vehicles and no activities are going to impact  you just you are trying to take this down that no building or structures no fill excavation grading or vehicles what can you use it for have a vote with the approval of the district commission you could use it you could use these fourteen point four acres for picnic areas pass and generally anything that would not didn't catch many of the words so i can't really jog your memory very well but that it was hard to back out of this except for there was a little bit of history there yes there is an exception for i could probably rattle off half of the standards but not all of them as i sit here but it's a balancing test where you look at the foreseeability of the need to amend the condition the need to accommodate flexibility in the permit process and a few other factors it's a legal test it's importantly it's rather rigorous because when you propose these conditions or accept permits with these conditions the intention is that they're not going to change unless there's been a significant change in circumstances a change in law a change in act two fifty law that would impact the developed the  land normally it's very difficult to remove these kind of restrictions but some have in some places in vermont yes it's possible it's very difficult but  it has happened how often like i don't know i don't have an answer to that question i don't have the knowledge of all of our two fifty permits where someone has applied and been successful under rule thirty four of them and those permit conditions  in in this instance if we were to apply them in that condition they anticipate the agency of agriculture would have a say in  from those fourteen point four acres there are also there is also another seven acre piece i'm sorry can i just clarify for me so that fourteen point four the original coffins arsal right now as part of the jammed off limbs exchange city also just recently accepted a permit condition that set aside seventy acres just to the east of the fourteen point four acres as on site primary mitigation as part of the impact that the development would have the g m golf development would have the south east well sorry north easterly corner of the intersection of dorset and park road this seventy acres is just to the east of the fourteen point four and so in between when the fort the restrictions were established on the fourteen point four acres and when we apply for this most recent active fifty permit in tw fourteen there is a substantial change in how criterion nine b under act two fifty is administered it is now now the restrictions that get put on mitigation land are much stricter  the agency of agriculture and the district commission impose the restriction that the land can only be used for farming as defined under act two fifty farming mabel sap crops raising feeding or management of livestock poultry fish or bees operation of greenhouses production of maple syrup on safe storage preparation and sale of agricultural products principally produced on the farm the on site storage preparation production and sale of fuel or power from agricultural products or waste principally produced on the farm our for example are the thing so for those seven acres of land you really can only use those for farming those include little a fellow pursuant to the permit condition in this act to fifty land use permit the city is required to brush hog this land every two years if it's too late file follow up so as to maintain its agricultural potential other similar restrictions there are similar permit conditions on other city land  namely about i believe fifteen of the twenty five acres to the north east of oak creek village as well this is that subjected to the rule thirty four test could be but apply it well if the if you have an orchard on that land and you go play in an orchard of more than fifty one fifty point one percent of the apples are grown on that land that are using for this and used for e you have to tap the sap from the tree on their property you know that's a different sub par of the definition of farming for the production of maple syrup is classified as farming so if you planted hundreds of maple trees and strong winds and used vacuum equipment evaporators and built a sugar house that would clout that would qualify as farming clearly there can be some structures agricultural str now we and there's also well before i move off the coffins parcel based on the calculations that were done for the jammed off land swap permit there appear to be approximately forty seven acres of prime agricultural primary agricultural soils remaining on the cock and parcel itself forty forty seven forty eight forty six something in them with that we're getting into an area where i'd rather talk to the council in executive session because it involves legal options and strategy as to what the legal uses of the land could be the other parts of the it could be as to the twenty two iker piece that the city recently acquired there are no deed restrictions on that land and there are no  conditions of permits that explicitly prohibit the use of that where it's however when the golf course development was built the developers of the golf course relied on the open nature of those twenty two acres to sort of offset the intensity of housing development at the golf course such that any further development of those twenty two acres is likely going to require some form of mitigation under criteria nine other things especially if they're impacting primary agricultural soil so i know the city has in the past considered some storm water treatment practices for those twenty two acres that would take the land from being open putting it to a storm water mitigation or storm water treating use there is a possibility that the city would have to mitigate the impact of the construction of the storm water treatment practices and be subject to banking other lands or offsetting other areas of land for those uses so the twenty two acres while not explicitly subject to any deed or permit condition were sort of used to offset or used as open space as part of the jim goff development one it depends on for under criterion nine b the mitigation factor depends on the quality of soils each type of soil has an agricultural value ranging from and i could be just a little off between different characters but there are different mitigation factors from two to two point five to three most of the soils on the wheel are partial or not of the highest quality and so the mitigation factor that would be used or is too early if we were so most of the soils in that area are of the six or seven not highest quality in more acreage to talk about or can i ask a question that was all i have prepared to go to questions my question is and i know that we're speaking in generalities because otherwise it needs to take place in executive s so in general is a kind of a blanket policy for a piece of land that we wish to keep into perpetuity desirable desirable for what i'm speaking generally for keeping into perpetuity for not dealing with all the legal intricacies of law reform and changing political landscape in the city manager office or the city council all these kinds of little things that i think that depends on whether you are a conservationist or you're a developer or you know you have certain feelings it's that's not a legal question so what would the blanket policy be for the conservationists or for the development and i think that i don't think there's a good answer to that question you know i think that there are exceptions to every rule and it's not a legal question you know i think craft are already in some kind of mitigation situation they're subject to actually fifty permanent conveyor mains may or may not be changed in some they go before the district commission correct they would be totally be subject to the district commission and what their feelings are on on the on the alternative i mean that's part of it too i mean if you want to you have to demonstrate a good we couldn't be i don't know the gemma's ever looked at wheeler nature park i know that jim spent a lot of time and i helped him looking at the twenty five acres to the north east of creek village and evaluating the permit conditions sub that are to that land is subject to but i don't know the jim ever i had never seen a memo that jim wrote with respect to the bill or nature park twelve twenty five or fifteen of those my recollection was that it was fifteen but they're talking about two different parts of the village and two different phases the fourteen point four four  but i i did not do the research or go back and look at my research create to really get into the meaning of those permit restrictions on what can or can't be drawn on those parcels why did you other conferences that would be putting at least portions of the property in the conservation isn't very difficult from a legal perspective the council on  know sometimes you know people are can version of the city's comprehensive plan so we do this next level up for all one hundred communities in tipping county and it's going to have some tweaks that we're going to go through for you here i've been somewhat close to this because i'm on the long range planning committee and we've been tackling part of the three elements that you'll be seeing tonight isn't the whole plan the whole plan it's just like your own cities comprehensive plan and a very large booklet with maps and detail that i'll refer you to we had written comments that were submitted on the plan by january fifth and so we're doing a public hearing tomorrow night six o'clock c c r p c and and then we'll see how we go from here we're going to go to a website if you want to look at the plan and read it in its full soon two hundred seventy pages or i think we got it down to with us from dean we're fifth when we were submitted written comments the public airing tomorrow we're looking for public feedback public comments would be happy to take any notes you want me to put into the record tomorrow if you guys find anything of note and then we'll have a second public hearing on may sixteenth and then hopefully will adopt the final version of the plan on june twentieth the c c r p c it's got an action plan for weapon we're going to do as you guys with with  commission for the eco plan we've got all our lists of strategies and actions and project lists and clued in it and this will be our focus of the next five years this plan is going to be a five year plan and this will be working on and  trickles down to what you guys deal with every day the unified planning work programme examples of which you're working on this year for south burlington the number one priority would be your bike and pen access that we're working on because of the not so much about cars these days i was on the active transportation committee and we're trying to find the intersection bottlenecks that we get around shit in county and improve them because we want to make it easier for people to get around on foot and on bike and other ways to do it even segue if they have that so number two was as we did the planning visioning over here at exit fourteen for all the crossings that we had for bike and peds over there  because it's been pretty horrible for the college students anybody's ever tried to navigate over there by dorset street going on over to the sheraton number three these are you w u p w p programs that we're working on here and so fluent in through would be city center parking and management and number six would be the national resources land development regulation standards and i think you're getting tonight on that where you know so those are what we're oh how it all trickles down to s people we're going to support multi modal development in areas for plan for growth and protect our rural planning area through municipal plan and by law systems back to fifty the next fifty years brown fields which are of course the polluted not superfund sites but places that have oil and stuff that in the ground that did not play to the level of superfund cleanups but we need to prime actuals not well they could have been at one time but we sites i mean gas gas real behavioral oh yes stations would be the standard way of revenue we're going to invest our transportation system to maintain our existing system primarily but also to address safety in congestion improve intelligent transportation services expand our bacon pet facilities and transit services you've seen go down burlington has done so well and transportation demand management which i'm going to defer here to charlie because they keep trying to figure out how that works yet really reducing the demand for people to drive so it is a lot of the bike transit type services we've been great on supporting housing development we've been doing well on that assist municipalities within hansen energy planning to implement the lake champlain total maximum daily load program to help clean up the lake our storm water systems have been doing a wonderful job on that i think we're head and shoulders above the rest of the communities that are dispersing  stuff back into the lake so it's up going to should be proud and when you put some money into the upgrade of the base plant will be in better even better shape and fact i think we leave the pack emergency management this is the proved and so most recently i was on that committee primarily concerned about culver replacement and flooding in the river corridors and things of that sort which with their changing climate are going to become even more of an issue over the next twenty thirty  years we've seen it from hurricane irene tropical storm irene in the washouts that happen from there we're getting ahead of that which is good to know and we have tons of culverts in the state that need attention and you can see any big washout jericho where they have dirt roads what happens to their infrastructure ele p c our local energy emergency plans we've got a great operation centers for that i think ours is key for chipping county or we know kevin it's at the so i don't think you and the switch is local energy operations planned how we're going to react to emergency actions weather events and stuff that's where we're going to support efforts to improve population health and do that by making our working trails we've done a great job of that our bike trails monitoring advancement of the atomosphere because we don't know what's going to happen in the next ten years but we know something is going to happen we just want to be more flexible and with that w coordinate with the municipalities on the eco saniel reporting scorecard so you can see how you're doing on a quarterly basis and be able to get feedback on what's going on region wide and of course workforce development through actions that continue to monitor and the demographic shifts so here's the plan it's a five year plan we last updated in twenty thirteen and we've brought in three updates which have been the energy the economy and the transportation you know if you go go through those in a second but the the main overview is that we're going to do minor edits to the future land use plan the future land views plan is often a fuzzy map as we do it here with our own planning commission so people don't get too excited about seeing boundaries that are clear and cut because when people look at maps they want to immediately find where they are in the map and find where the boundaries are the future land use plan is very fuzzy looking out at  hundred thousand foot level and not getting that sense of detail but saying well we want industrial over here we want residential over there and we want open space and green space over here so we're going to be doing minor edits to that forest integrity has come up because of the dispar nature of the town forest your pockets the forests that are really serving a function very much like wetlands if they're disconnected health intro strategy to number five i think that relates more to the opioid yeah i think we're just updating our talking about health and vermont right now and i should mention the force integrity is a new requirement of town and regional plans of the legislature and up a couple years ago so we're adding language to comply with those requirements so can you do six spin on that a little bit in terms of i mean i sort of understand that term the integrity of these forests that's the sort of thing we have stands in different places that are connected to somewhere so they lose their integrity is that right with this is more about maintaining the integrity of the swaths of force that we have so if you think about vermont i mean a lot of it is going down the spine of the yes yeah is where most of our land is that a lot of it is already in state forests or if you go down further south in federal force but does that include particularly precious stands of really old trees that are around you mean they're they're not connected to anything anymore but not always have been developed or cut down this is much more about large forest acreage alright it's really much more about habitat than it is about the individual trees ok the c e b s the m t v is the metropolitan transportation plan as required by the federal government is the one thing that we have money for and it's fiscally constrained the other items within this plan are generally pigeon areas or on comprehensive plan does and goal oriented but the m t p has a budget if you will but it looks out for a good period of time and it gets updated every five years as this plan will moving forward the c e s is the  economic development community economic development and that is very strategy strategies here and again that's something that needs to be updated along with the coast plan and we've now sort of rolled them all into one package here w them all together the still stand as separate or they've come in as new n p p used to be a separate deal that we would update every three years i think it was every five every five different cycles so we finally get the cycles alliance will all be on the one enhanced energy is the first new subject and these graphic which is a little hard to see but what is showing on the left is the number of homes that are needing whether ization in the numbers that are total out of the total home we can see about two thirds of the homes need better where there is ation we have a long ways to go in that efficiency vermont should be able to help us on that and any incentives that we can craft or we sort of track that understanding that it is a big cost of living in the northeast in the snow still and then the development that we've done a good job here on is making sure the areas plan for growth get the growth and the rural areas don't and that's we've done eighty six percent i think is what it's saying since two thousand and twelve have been put in areas planned for growth that might seem like it's a lot of development if you're over there in williston where i work and it's true but that's sort of smart growth it's near the infrastructure it's near the sidewalks it's and it's near the stores and people can walk to the services that they need there are a number of homes going up rather fast but that's concentrated development  where we have places for it and it reduces traffic reduces energy needs overall i think could have a good quality of life this is the other piece we spent a lot of time on ninety percent of our energy needs to be is there on the left where we have a high target low tar target and our current capacity if we could spend hours going into it basically i think the bottom line is so probably ten years on the hook for somewhere around twenty two megawatts of solar energy  which is doable would take up potentially about one hundred seven acres if we put it on solar farms we're not counting putting it on rooftops which would probably look parking lots or parking lots which reduce that  be skewed it a little bit that's when we actually it's very much good land but it looks like we should have no problem putting solar farms out there everywhere and getting the whole thing but of course that's not true because if you look at the detail maps local constraints and state constraints really cut down that number quite quite a lot so when i say so burlington you know if you look at our look constraints for the habitats you just described the forests the clay plain forests and all we talked to the plant about about those sites about rooftop parking lots and brownfields being preferred sites before you open fields so here is your energy peak as far as transportation talk passenger cars counting the plug in type cars so hybrids if you're a pure hybrid and you don't need to plug in you're not in that number and the important thing to note is kind of in the black and talents were to get to ninety percent renewable we need eighty nine percent  comments so let's talk about that these are the comments that we got by january fifth look at this twenty people read this report and commented on it may not mean riveting out of the twenty communities or one thousand communities but they offered two comments at least on it some of them were technical in nature and were addressed the municipal setting constraints were about the solar energy and about the second what in the language so the weakness of the suitability language of the municipal setting constraints are both around that solar where could we put solar and what about half natural habitat and what's an appropriate place to put it spend a lot of time on that and the language gets real lawyer relief so we sort of finesse that and left it so it wasn't going to offend either way because there are state and local constraints that are pretty straightforward and then there you are natural gas reserves the ninety percent renewable that was the question i don't have an answer i think that you know we're not going to be putting vermont gas out of business by two thousand and fifty although if you read a week or so ago about this and they said don't do that to me i think i mean clear you know the state legislature asked us to develop a plan to meet the state comprehensive energy plan calls which is and what's in legislation which is ninety percent renewable like twenty fifty for our region natural gas is a heavy part of our energy per fall you know what the plans that says it's to be ninety percent renewable by twenty fifty we really can't use too much actual gas we're not advocating for labs ition we're just reporting back to the state what it would take and so you'll see a lot of language in there about the  percent into the county so you can't have both ways and so that speaks to the second line from the bottom is that the goals are unrealistic for a ninety percent renewable if natural gas remains as cheap as it is you know in the cost of solar and the cost of wind and the cost of hydro electric continually are higher than natural gas it's unrealistic to expect that you can meet that goal and then of course the best part would be if we had a consistent enforceable energy co that's where you guys can help median household income over the last seven years on the right the number of bachelor's degrees and shit in the county versus the rest of the state how much extra money you would make in a stem related field if you studied science yet and then here's an interesting graphic that also relates to what's happened over the last few years if you look for in the far upper right there you have two thousand and two versus twenty fifteen and you see that the number of employees living outside and shit in the county has increased therefore the traffic coming in the every day to chipping county if you haven't noticed has increased and anecdotally i talk to people in my travels around the city  and they are moving to fairfield or georgia because it's cheaper up there and the cost of gas and their driving daycare is not as much for consideration for them as the fact that they can afford a home up there and they can afford and it's more of a  term planning he said that was like about the transportation well we'd like to reduce that trend but there's the trend and it's going the wrong way as far as at least i would say but you guys that we all have this power and then in the lower right you're seeing the cohort change for ages of course the greatest number of people changing from the last ten years has been in the over sixty set so that we're getting more of the getting there we're getting there and we actually got a boost in the twenty to twenty nine year old must be our new legalized marijuana so this is covering a ten year period going back to a period time where you champlain college in particular both had significant increases in student population so we kind of you know have a big influence are there because you know we have such a big percent of our population is students so when they graduate for the next two years they become ski patrol members the skittles thirty percent number age twenty to twenty four unemployed and looking for work comparisons three point three for the general population that's the problem where the tanking get new kids to join there's this whole segment of young people that are like either not properly trained for jobs that exist or have not been funneled into a way to make them interested in those jobs so there's something we're not doing right because that's a huge number well and i think i have to give technical college a lot of credit for they were listing campus and putting something in a population center road down in randolph where the kids can get those skills and the centers for technology in essex and the burlington technical center and those regional vocational technical high schools that do a great job of getting kids who are not necessarily going to study books through eight years of high school and college but are ready to go to work and fix things and do computer graphics and you know they have a great programs for dental hygienist and optometry over at c p and essex those are say we talk so much about the skills and having to do some sort of post high school training program or college and forty percent of our high school graduates go on to no further training or anything and so i think there's a big issue that i think the state workforce development board has been raising about you know how do we back in some of that up like other countries do into the high schools so that they are prepared for jobs come needing an additional layer of investment right i mean all those programs cost money they've taken on student loans all those things they heard a great integral story at work about a young man who went through the welding program of burlington tech right and got a job in burlington at a firm that wasn't as appreciative of him as they could have been so he moved to another firm williston and that firm loves this kid so much that they have promoted him they give him a raise he loves working there he loves doing the welding the work is interesting in it it's that that's the kind of story that i'd like to hear where the service you know gives the kid you know the skill that they need and then there's an employer will it willing to receive that person train them and bring them up into the workforce so they can be doing it for as long as they want you know so fifteen people read the economic development dropping down from obviously the the first item there and they talked about industrial lands perhaps having more of them better broadband of course which is always been a state priority smart growth as an economic development strategy that if you put the density here in sydney county it pays benefits to everybody because people will stay here they'll spend their money here and the provide jobs here where where the density of population is and railfreight which apparently with the idea in passenger freight that we've heard about going up to montreal as a potential for  both problems when you're dealing with shelbourne on this one probably were those comments were probably related to children's issues with the salt shed and you go further down the line where they have the sightings and right when then all that where they talk about oh we didn't know that all these hazardous chemicals were just sitting there for weeks at a time on a siding so that's probably what those comments are about and of course permitting being burdensome which is still the pain of businesses want to expand here in vermont is they go through the act to fifty process and it just sort of sours them on the whole issue and makes it difficult for them i ran it that experience fifteen years ago where they kept the from candidate said oh we want to expand in milton then about six months later that it's so much easier in canada to expand what we're doing  nope by my one pet thing i'll say about that is that it's really a permitting system we have three layers state agencies district commissions active fifty and municipal providing you know other places it's an integrated system here we have three often separate systems permitting and so that's my one great hope for the active fifty commission that they actually make some progress on integrating the permitting system but  transportation plan in the course of this one as it will be pointed out is a financial plan for identifying how it's going to be paid for so it can't be as visionary as perhaps some of the others it's going to be less fuzzy a it covers all these priorities and strategies there don't need to read them to you so i'll ask my question go ahead one of my questions now i really see that the bike path network is a county project and right now we have this patchwork of towns and cities working on it individually and it comes at a cost right where we need  expertise we also are all competing for the same grounds would make sense i think to have a more regional approach to connecting the bike paths and making a regional network we have a bus system that is regional we have you know our utilities that are regional and i see bike passes and other regional you know conceptual design but also in terms of the personnel you know the people power behind it it makes sense for there to be a centralized like to see that with the airport to a play a critical role in making those connections and there are those tough ones we're crossing a river or a creek is usually where we end up with a real connectivity issue or a highway or you have whatever physical boundary you're barrier there is something like an interstate desire i'm not sure how far along we can move further than we have been which is you know i think we've been working very well with the towns to try to help support making and getting those connections made but there's there are challenges and you know that's good to hear so you are facilitating that were  here has expertise think it helps eighty percent for the how to get across the interstate is you know it's i understand it's a understand but i don't want the twenty percent to fall on just one municipality because i think it will serve a lot think urging thing make it to try to answer a little bit is the the number of projects that are municipalities are working on terms of the bike path network is a tremendous amount of projects  see what you're doing every one of our particularly this call the urbanized area if you will have a similar number of projects so that that network is happening it is more piecemeal maybe the people would like hear it from the folkestone further down doors the street they want safe pass but you're talking about two different bicyclists if you take bicycle for instance the casual basic alist who would not want to be on the roadways they represent probably eighty five percent of the braking population they love our bypass and the fifteen percent that will want to be commuting to work on the roadways and will want that separately as well as with complete streets that we you know implemented over there and w so they're both equally important and they're both you know equally going to take advantage of with every connections you can make and so they're they're screaming for those connections from dorset street so they can come up the cider mill so they can come up safely to dorset park and veterans memorial park and go to the high school without getting clobbered if your fourteen year old kid or a sixteen year old kid and similarly you know the other folks want to be able to get on their bicycle if they're commuting on a safe way to get over to willesden if that's narrow bridge and the connection doesn't exist for safe by clean over those bridges so absolutely those connections are vital and it's willesden might stop at their side of bridge and so burlington stops at their side of bridge but nobody's really addressing take another example instead of a bus on the public bussing system we have for instance our stormwater office that is now contracting outside of south burlington we have some room an office with a lot of expertise that is able to serve other the one on the other side i will note that you have the trans took some of the transportational term of the program money for these two years and so we want to devote it all to clean water so there is definitely some of the money that was available for some of these projects has been reduced last for me this fiscal year or next fiscal year i'm confused which fiscal year was started but there are definitely two years where there's reduced funding for bike pet projects because of clean water project as you know i think is one of those let's do that in the short term in the hopes of long term water quality revenue gets gets developed that's still a debate in the legislature but two other things to note on this is just seventy percent of transportation funding for the foreseeable future goes to maintaining the system and i think that's a pretty realistic number and then autonomous vehicles that you started to no when we were doing some of the initial modeling there is a real possibility for not managing that change well that we're going to see significant increases in traffic that one scenario would have had an eighty percent increase in traffic it's not it's counter the vehicles it's going to drop you off and then you're normally would leave your car in the driveway now their cars going to seed too i really think the state needs to look at its license plate assessed the tolls so that's a lot less than infrastructure you don't need to pay for people but we could start assessing to a car registration is based on license plate usage they're doing it in the south and it could assign usage or fees based on usage of our roads which most economists would support it's not mileage so whenever you go through major intersections or countries you license plate you get charged two cents and so whereas using a roadways get assessed the fees on the cars are autonomous they're all go communicating to each other and to the system to the traffic lights that data is clearly going to have to be there so they're going to hammer some pipes yeah something's going twenty people read the  asking me to put this comment and you guys did your resolution thank you in august ellen with the state of vermont to adopt the climate action goals that correspond with the u n paris agreement so that's a direct result of south burlington input and i think jerry can think the board is going to take that issue up i don't think it will be desperately part of our plan but as joining in as an organization so that would be a separate conversation for board not all comments make it into print accident and fatalities have to take because we've had a few yeah and that's pretty much it so we're having the hearing tomorrow night hopefully people will show up in person other than the twenty people who read the first birth the fifteen people read the second know and one of the issues that came out of the transportation analysis i'm sorry i skipped over this would we look at that before is looking at the interstate and you know and i know this is nothing new to the city council and you know one piece of it was we are going and it looks like if things continue that we will have to do some widening between fourteen fifteen that segment you know i think a lot of people would already feel it is overcapacity there are some other things that are going on there but at some point in the next thirty years we need to go from you know what's four lanes to six lanes in that segment good eighty nine yes i  accidents so that and the other thing was it did look like it helped the overall network and the interstate to have an additional interchange improvement somewhere i never really looked at improving exit fourteen and what that could be improved and how it might be able to incorporate by ted we're looking we have that thing go right now to look at it like that crossing but we've never looked at how to improve that interchange and the other possibilities would be twelve feet or or an interchange similar to what the airport was looking for i think they called it fourteen and right one of those three interchange improvements looks like you know might really be a good idea in the long term so we're talking about next year just at but that's a really long process that we all know how long this really big projects take and so we're talking about starting that that initial discussion up next year to start that and that's going to take a little while we look a little bit at twelve even we're looking at the tilley drive area this would be a little bit you know kind of broader interstate you know from sixteen to twelve and i know you've been looking at affordable housing but i think there's also family housing too to consider and i mean this is a song that i sing pretty often here with the loss of family housing we've had in our city that it's just it's very difficult to find that level at that price i mean family housing with a beautiful piece of land i really think that people even today that that's what they're looking for when they start to settle so so it is a big issue you know so it's about affordability it's about being you know it's being it's a sizeable enough economy right i mean i think one of the big challenges we have is the traveling spouse issue you know look if you're starting your first or second job and you're trying to advance up the career ladder you want to have other jobs to go to and coming to a small market we're out of inherent disadvantage  offense to anybody it's just the reality when you look across the country the larger metros are growing and small metros and rural areas are not it's you know it's part of the nature of the beast i think it is the fight against that i think that's what you see here the state agency of commerce working on how do we you know market vermont you know there may be technology may solve or some of the issues you'll be able to work here we mostly and work for a company going to bigger cities so there are opportunities that we need to explore housing is definitely part of it and there's a lot there's a lot that can be done to help improve the situation something or board kind of looked at two years ago was how do we encourage more families to come here and tech jobs and things like that so all of what you see and hear is all related to trying to make that you know the bike had to work you know people want to have quality of life to move someplace so it's all interconnected and all trying to  just hasn't quite taken off so i think it's just to make a comment back to transportation and this is going to sound really procul but you know we're passed through community and so as we you know make the interstate better and all these ways to get through our community do because somebody somewhere else we're left with keeping those roads maintained and dealing with sort of the traffic issues without it seems to me sort of a financial recognition by the state you know the best there money into another on an off ramp for the interstate potentially or wide net and then all those cars go through our community to get trying to yeah yeah and the one thing you know in talking to the trans i think we have a conversation very similar to that would be trans like don't don't talk about why the interstate if you don't have anywhere to go at the end of the ramp right you know and so this is not south burlington is a destination you know and we're looking at the network it wasn't all people trying to go to burlington it was other places in south burlington that people are trying to get to as well maybe it's a little bit of wellston or job or you know mixed in there but  you know what i think was positive i think they were hearing that you know in the money that earmark money for the exit fourteen signal systems you know that is a to me a big investment that the trans was understanding like  kind of you know we've had our whole city separated by interstates for the greater good is a big barrier i think might be apportioned too because it'll come glad they have monica here you know maybe take the reins from the planning commission that we would be well advised to get ahead of the developer in coming up with a name or way to brain and that cent tree place people can refer to both relatively easily and know where and what they are you know it's pretty church street has the same with burlington humala i don't think is going to spats the test of time so i think it's time that the council in the planning commission get together and figure out a way to come up with you know sort of corners market corners market south market square anything that is our own as opposed to something imposed by somebody else the shops dorsets what's you know that  so will dodge and i have to have had some discussion now over a license agreement belt ultimately it's council decision on what to do with city property so coming in to explain kind of their their proposal the current license currently being proposed and is it two or three sites so three sites right now ok and i'll show you where those where those are located just to give you some sense and realize that you guys have been getting a lot of information thinking about  the c c r p c presentation this is just one little tiny speck of the aspect of you know better broadband coverage and dealing with changes in technology so cell sites that were all traditionally used to are usually antenna raised on cell towers or on buildings like those the some of the some of the buildings in south burlington all have antenna the rays on the sides of them sometimes are in stealth chimneys and those are traditionally what's built most of the south system throughout vermont what what's happening now is a migration to that doesn't eliminate obviate the need for those macro out sites as we call them those ones that are forming the network now but the basically take the signals that come from those bigger sites and boost them and also just deal with traffic from so many more people using smart phones for so many other  things on a regular basis as well as what's starting what you are starting to see which is so stunning is called the internet of things are i o t where machines are also trying to basically access the internet at different times on different networks so small cells and then you have other types of systems distributed antenna systems are often used inside big buildings like hospitals and wife i hot zones we all know from going to starbucks which are much kind of smaller a smaller form of d ication a small cell are basically it's this little sites that usually are on some combination of either transmission structures distribution law distribution poles like basically your electrical wires outside or also street lamps and they usually cover a radius of about fifteen hundred feet but when you string them together in the right place they basically help to deal with the effect of lots of people at different times all using their devices literally committing communicate with macrocell towers yes in other words what they're what they're really doing is they're taking the signal from the macro tower and they're there boosting it and they're distributing the traffic that they're at that trying to go back to that macro site in such a way that it doesn't basically results in you dropping it a call right so let's say you're in your car and it looks like you're in a traffic jam and for some reason yourself cite yourself signal may die or your call may get dropped whereas the car in front of you somebody else still has there's going well it's all because of the tower itself trying to just deal prioritize different traffic it or densification it's to trying to deal with that in the small cells or internal positioning requirement to point some entity towards the macrocell term not as much they're basically they're basically uni directional so they're more like an old on the antenna that just goes down so could they communicate with more than one mic or so yes absolutely but usually they they end up yeah it's going to depend it's going to depend where the placement is but i think usually they're tied to one particular side so to give you an idea i actually don't have there's very few small cells in chittenden county right now there's no a t m t small cells so we're coming to south burlington first but this is a verizon small cell that's over on suzy welch and road and you can see a couple of characteristics basically you have that canister antenna as it's called that sitting on top of the pole and then about three quarters down t pole you have kind of almost what looks like a speaker or maybe an air conditioner that's what that's basically the brain of the antenna that's what's doing all of that's what's doing all of the work so the installation itself is basically doesn't involve any type of ground disturbance you're using both existing electrical wires and existing fiber wires to get it hoped up and you're relying on the existing pole more than anything and most of these as you're going to see are going into some kind of existing right of way so either state road or a municipal road so they do require more than power they require some fiber yes they do because they're because they it's part of part of the reason that stands for redundancy and reliability in other words to make sure that they're always working even if there's some type of outage so not all of them do it just going to depend on the the individual network so small cells you know i've talked a little bit about this about densify and the network or sort of bringing the network closer to its users the main reason for this is you know in this chart it's kind of sort of a dramatic it illustration of the fact that data usage just on a t and t s network has increased one hundred fifty thousand percent since two thousand and seven since the i phone was invented so densification and some of those other systems like distributed antenna systems and wife is all basically trying to deal with this and we are expecting that this is only going to increase over time so that's why these types of small cells are becoming much more important within vermont the sort of the legal process for dealing with small cell deployment if you're going onto an existing utility  happens is the company like eighteen c in this case will get an agreement with the pole on earth so with green mountain power you'll go through the section to forty eight a process and if there is any type of excavation for any purpose like if you have to maybe replace a pole with a new poll or put more fiber in then you'll go to your town for the section eleven eleven permit the right of way permit autum municipal street lamp or traffic light it's basically the same thing except of course we need an agreement with the too to do the attaching then we'll go through the two forty eight a process and again if there's any type of excavation thing for most of the sites and we're looking at right now there wouldn't be but we would we would come for a separate right away permit so it's a pretty straightforward of a small cell site here will actually improve things in the fire department and in the town hall so that would be a good thing for everyone high school the high school i think is i think as well the other one that the second one of the of the sort of municipal pole locations is basically at the vitamin shoppe so kind of across the street from where you know right going into the humam and then the third light but that's the vitamin shoppe as a pull it has a poll right in front of it basically if so it's rizzo it's a it's in the city right of way but it's just and that's just you know where is in front of that particular shop and then the third one is  down you know if you know where the transmission lines are right now that cross dorset street this is just a little bit further south of it so not too far from from where we are right now four hundred dorset street forgetting what the name of that is and oh it's actually the these we're not proposing to change these poles in other words we're not going to replace them and build taller ones basically just like the example i showed you the canister goes on the top and the equipment cabinet kind of goes in about three quarters of the way down on the pole so what kind of area do these these three polls seem kind of close together so what area of this city will this service really get its fifty fifty one hundred feet but the way that it actually sent in some to forty eight avocations these are already sites and we're working on with g m p but there's one on kennedy drive another on airport drive another work and one down on shelburne road and one over on grand view drive where it's all the call of the mind is falling but it's actually the credit union building that's around the corner and it might as a side over there i feel like there's two or three others that i'm forgetting no i don't have any pictures of those macro sites thousand periodic lee does antenna adjustments on that site so if they replace the matter add different antennas and that will all continue to go up because that's just the way the technology works is there's antenna upgrades to deal with more data but this will have the effect of dealing really with the problem of traffic and dropped calls and just not very good penetration into some of the buildings and you know dealing with especially times of kind of peak traffic so high school graduation right all those periods of time where there's a lot of people all trying to use their phones at the same time my prediction and this is a this is just a pure productions nothing i've spoken about with eighteen c is that when market street more effective or not really i mean with this the these light poles are pretty much the perfect type because they're they're trying to have again bring the network closer to where people are just getting in especially that in building coverage that's already working with what's out there from the macro sites would for some of those polls that you showed there are either black or rude would you be willing to ping the kids so that it's the same colors the whole i think that's something that we might talk about with the the we want to look at it in each individual case i think it might be possible that we can paint some things but not others so in other words we we may be able to paint the canister but i'm not sure if we can paint the  other areas of i would say it's actually really over on shelburne road like trying to go to you know into shall burn there's more there right right right down and then which side which  and there's like they're all packed on the great but that's the last entity i know of as you go cell phone his route there's something else i don't know word is no there's really nothing it's the best thing that honestly i'll certainly take back these and other words during the summer periods right when there's that many people all going like after eating ice cream like monsters game or whatever the r f network people from new england are saying like what's going on with that spot because beam microwave beam going somewhere but i don't know where you are in the interests of time and maybe holding a motion to get something to tonight i move that the council authorized the city manager to negotiate and enter into a license agreement or agreements with new cingular wireless at the proposed two locations in and owned by the city just and then that for the three three locations relocations in and owned by the city so that's where those are the three locations of cyrus station in front of vermont shop vitamin shop ok understood i did second guess so it's been moved and seconded is there any further discussion i ask a question you certainly may do you anticipate doing any more he's in south raleigh ten and why are we just talking about the three well the agreement i think the way the agreement strafford is that we would just add them we would just add that you don't say permission and then if we want if we want to add another one and if it's ok with the city then we would just use the same as saying ok what is my authority under this motion just for the three yes yes that's as emotions in front of you right now if we want to have a larger discussion about a policy how we're going to handle these license agreements as they come in i think that's a different different action another question from more discussions are not so to fifty per level per unit per year rex ok so i have no idea what the going rate is for micro or small cells do we have an indication of whether we're being paid fairly for this we've reached out to try and trying to term that better if you have any this is what i'll say about this issue because obviously you know you should you should look at it and that's a  thing to do the way that the the modeling that's that's been used for this around the country is that those rates are pretty competitive so for instance the city of indianapolis just to take one example you know obviously much greater metropolitan area so there's going to have more sites but even there they're charging fifty dollars a pop and what i'd say about that too or thing to keep in mind is part of what eighteen nineteen all the other carriers are trying to do is to keep these costs reasonably low also they're not just passing them on to the consumer right whereas what i think where the model was kind of headed for the first decade of sal you are was they would keep paying higher and higher rents and so your price would keep going up so even though we're not a regulated utility some of the same price dynamics takes place and that's why that's why that's what's being offered for those installations we do pasta five thousand dollar bond and we also pay for like all the what's called a make ready work so if we look at a poll and figure out while the poll is listing or there's something wrong with it before we can do it you know we obviously take care of all of that work and we provide the insurance and also  you know indemnify the city for any type of problem that happens with this and the agreement makes very clear that like cities not going to be hooked on the hook if a truck plows into one of them and there's some kind of interruption of the people service like that's that's that's on us right now one more question i'm sorry it's one more all right so does the contract provide in any way does restrict the different types of protocols that could exist in this box on the pole to being only four g l t e or five g or is it b or any of those other types of protocols there's no restriction on the type of call that could be utilized by that communication of i and you can you can understand why that would be the case is that we didn't get into a situation where for the whole entire country executive session and we discussed appointments to the south burlington board's committees and commission so i would entertain a motion to appoint in squirrel to the housing trust fund committee brian sullivan to the d or b for a three year term daniel said to the city charter and jonathan pence to the parks and rec element i think i still got some voice left here you received the december narratives from department managers i didn't receive any follow up questions on that but i'd be happy to follow up if you have any  from the narratives that were sent out last month and in terms of the january financials you received those were fifty eight percent of the way through the year and now general fund expenditures are at fifty six percent revenues were at fifty three so we're in good shape there on the expenditure side most of our operating transfers have been made be a cool purchases have been made some of the bigger things that they hit the expense lines there with the winter hasn't been extremely kind to us were well into our budget for salt for diesel fuel for over time and we still go a little bit of winter la soon see how that goes well beyond payments of that made except for the pension which usually comes about in may on the revenue side we get some good news the building and signed permits are right where they need to be and the fire inspection revenue is about fifty percent of the way they're surprised and already higher than what we were all of last year when we did was encouraging to see so we're in pretty good shape in the general fund and a price fund suer is at forty one percent in expenses fifty percent in revenues and stormwater seventy three percent in revenues one hundred nine percent in  expenditures mainly from carryover i think just explained that pretty well in this narrative carry over of projects from one fiscal year to the next so happy to respond to any questions  there any questions i was just curious why we haven't paid the news he valley park district seem to be the only one in that i think if i think fleet replacement on that no questions whoa i want to see the numbers on the police obviously already said that before good enough thank you k number sixteen this should be a quickie this is acknowledging receipt from the planning commission of the draft amendment to the land development regulations an accompanying report and we me to do is acknowledge that you've received these amendments proposed amendments and warn the hearing all right so i would so we've all acknowledge that we receive them yes that maybe additional footage would help and the other two three properties as well i'm so it's not something that we want to discuss and we have the initial leader the additional footage in our current time right this or received it and so i would entertain a motion to board a public hearing on the draft amendments to the l t or develop regulations for seven have two possibly three other pieces to discuss one is the process for advertising and interviewing and select ben franklin but a republic is a precious thing and we we are a public body we are a democracy and the police is one of the pillars of our democracy and i truly think it's in our interests to make this process as public as possible police chief really does determine policy for a force and determines climate in the city and having learned about the police chiefs the selection process and hiring process elsewhere i really want to have a discussion about how kevin had foreseen it what our role in it is could be is there room to still influence the conception of that process i think it is it's something that the public would like to take part in meet the candidates but before meeting the candidates actually putting you know just like we do in our visioning meetings what kind of qualities they would like to see in our police chief because a police chief of course is a leader for the force but like i said really sets the tone in the town and i really want to have that discussion i also received and i've not met him  and he was a native or monitor grew up in underhill went to harvard followed a career path and then really heard the call for service  i think he served from two thousand and sixteen to two thousand and fifteen something like and last position was assistant commissioner and he moved up quite quickly because of his qualities and his contacted me and just asked is it worth while to submit an application i'd really like to move back to vermont here like patients which are quite impressive and i i do i want to have an explanation as to why we would close off our process to people you know only in vermont we are the second largest city in the state we are dealing with big city problems whether it be racism and diversity and tolerance whether it be opioid addiction and drug trafficking and that is across state lines whether it be human trafficking and the sex trade i mean there are huge issues that go beyond our borders we are not a backwater we are dealing with big city issues here and i'm not saying that we get back when i have it i'm just saying why do we limit ourselves to on only police officers in state of vermont and i did do some inquiry and i know the police chief in burlington is from out of state willison is from out of state route one is from out of state maybe fairfield fairfax i can recall is from out of state and i just i know it's possible we've given ourselves a year and i don't understand why and i really think that we might be you know reducing the pool and really you know turning away candidates that our public what we're looking at this time for selection so you i would like that very much but i will say this this is an incredibly awkward you've just on television advocated for a friend of you know them either happy to talk about this now we we talked about what we were going to do to advertise and to hire i brought this to you for this discussion the reason we're choosing to hire with in somebody who has a level three certification is there already quit pre qualified to be a police officer in a chief in vermont if you don't have a level three serve occasion it can take you months to get that certification before you're eligible to be a chief in the state there are many qualified police officers in this state who can serve with distinction as a chief of police here i did not feel it because of the pool here at or needed to go outside of vermont to look for a candidate when we have many candidates right here who know vermont who know the laws they're level three certified already and i did not want to spend three to six months in a certification process for a chief from out of state who may arrive here and then decide charlie said before trailing spouse problem spouse can't find a job and they decide to move elsewhere i don't want to take that risk and we don't need to take that risk because there are qualified candidates right here who are interested in this job first of all i want to correct something please i do not know that we're very awkward ok i do not know this man i'm just saying i received an application i know his parents but i do not know him from adam i'm not recommending him i'm just saying from my untrained public eye he's worthy of the public's consideration i am not in a position to hire him but i am stunned i am advocating for the public i am ok that's the first thing i am sure haven't you have received africans that people have talked to about and so i don't think that what i am doing is jeopardizing or compromising in any way opening this process to candidates from outside of the state and again i reiterate that this is a big city problem in eighteen thousand population and when i read about the processes going on in other cities they are public processes and they're they're not limited i just i want your explanation as to why i guess we would limit ourselves because it's it's as it's been described to me the only thing that you cannot to if you do not have a level three licensure is you cannot arrest for felonies no no no the police chief does not arrest  for no that's totally untrue i don't know who is tell me that you can't service a chief of police in the state without having a level three serve occasion across the board it's not just about arresting for fell it's about having this licensure level that means that you know the laws of the state that you've been through a course around the laws that you've received field training out of fifteen hours look i don't want to that before please let me be very very very clear about this let me be very clear chief of police works for me i will determine the process that we go through to hire a chief of police the city manager is different the city manager works for you having an the whatever process you specify for a city manager is fine but i will specify what the process is for the chief of police because i understand what that department needs and what i'm looking for what would the public process not bring to you i mean i why close that off i really don't understand because you want me to do that for a public works director or a fire chief or an ambulance chief then then we've completely abrogated my role under the charter to make hiring decisions for my staff no i am not going to open that door make it and i'm done and that's it i'm not going to open that door it's my job to hire people if you're dissatisfied with who i hire then get rid of me but that's my job and i'm not going to i'm not going to delegate that out to a a committee of people it's not going to have ok so you don't want to go seattle's route that's fine no i don't want to go see ads ok that's fine but could there be a process where the community tells you its goals and priorities that they know like you have you consider i know the city's goals and priorities for policing they are they are apparent obvious to us i don't need to form a committee to advise me on that with respect i understand my job and my job is to oversee a police department so i and i know what the police department i don't know i'm disappointed by i understand your demand for control and i i'm not taking away the hiring it's not a demand for control it's a control by right under the charter it's not a demand it's not a it's not a power play it's not a demand for control the charter specifies very clearly what my job is and i'm not going to abrogate that to somebody other than myself i didn't ask you to abrogate it i ask you to explain why that's why i and and i can then respond that i'm disappointed because i to be to be quite honest and i i think it's important for this to be discussed in public session this is the public body having it was it only advertised in seven days seven days other just you know kind of go through the motions and you know when you start it when you spoke to us you're talking about twelve months and that would give us lots of time to to you know look at different candidates and that and  twelve months is a long time and i don't think that the process that you've put into motion requires twelve months and so i feel that there's a disconnect between how you spoke to us about your approach to this and the actual process that has been put in you know into facts and i think that i'm not the only person who thinks that ok well i understand i respect your position and i understand respect or i'm not changing my mind but i understand and respect your view consideration that process i remember there was a call for input from the public i don't know where that with the criteria were for how they would what pool of applicants they would solicit rate but once that pool was established i know i wrote a letter to somebody because that because they asked it said what qualifications do you want in a chief of police for the city of south burlington and i was very specific on three points but they had to be and we were fortunate that  yeah but you recall being asked you know i just think you know you would how you would want that envision it to be translated by kevan so let's say you know fifty people i mean maybe it would be helpful to know what criteria values that you are looking for because we all shake our heads and say spot on that sounds like all the things that this community needs versus not you know really knowing i mean i happen to trust your judgment and i think you have worked with trevor released closely and have a pretty good sense of where this city needs to go and where we've been and how to get there  but it would be helpful to have more understanding so what are you looking for are you looking for trevor to or and you know there probably are things that trevor doesn't do well that you want in the next one i mean that's why you know people retired because they sometimes they just feel like you know these are the issues  name and their qualifications for all of the applicants out there i just i just want to do ok why because because this is my job i know what's needed in that department if you want to talk specifically about what's needed in that department it becomes a personnel matter that will have to do an executive session which i'm happy to do but i'm not going to change the process i'm going through to hire one of my staff it's just not going to happen so i  required because to be quite honest it kind of i don't understand i really don't i mean in my line of work you have to be transparent and i'm not a public entity i mean i guess you v m is a public and right ok but everything has to be transparent and equal you know opportunity and affirmative action everything has to be process because i think the role of the public is important and as jim says and i've heard it elsewhere people have been asked before and it is an expectation and it's not about this and explain this but this is my decision it is my authority under the charter i'm not going to change my mind on this i'm not so i just want to be job this is a highly sought after job in this state it's a premier position in large part because you provide the resources and the taxpayers provide the resources for an agency to allow it to do the very best it's leet organization and they're highly qualified candidates that we're aware of in this state who want this job and so i'm not concerned about a extremely highly qualified candidate stepping forward and applying for this position i'm i'm glad that i'm sure that is the case i'm just saying it's unusual the process is unusual and i had to ask these questions because i've had people ask me these  process and that's what is unusual about this is that it's top down and nothing goes out to the public and that makes no sense to me or to many people well that's why this is the first i've heard of many people haven't contacted me know it's a first i've heard of it but let me be very clear i'm not changing my mind you said so i'm just i'm publicly if you're getting my want to have an executive session now i'm perfectly happy to do it would you like to do that can you make it think i was impressed with how sort of neutral it was but really addressing the questions that i think would be really important for a pack membership to have when they get to the point i think in april to sit down and as a as an advisory committee my understanding is that's when they're really going to be duking it out on what's in and what's out and what they're going to recommend to because the next meeting in march is as i understood it they're going to get the information on what is a bird kind of thing but ideally i think they would have time to look through the information and digest it it i mean it's the questions are you know all the ones we want answered it really lets people make decisions and give feedback and i as i recall in  discussion it was going to be let's just have the people who live there i wondered with kevan whether we should include maybe as a separate the the data but query the school personnel and i don't know if david wants to do that they have a different perspective perhaps that they don't live there but they weren't there so you know what your pleasure tom i just have one call and looking at the best results i spoke with coralie briefly about this is the seed you got and i've had to have confidence in these results and realists share these and it's important that we can we can ensure that they are residents of the only it's really that person and not so many people in that neighborhood so that's where you have to record the name and the address but you could then do some quality checks so you could confirm with that person that they did complete the survey you can token all i'm saying is we want to have confidence in this data to really stand behind it we want to think about how do we ensure that these are qualified responses from home owners with these terrorists we did paper base and then we knew it was residence and it was it was very  people and a lot of people will not put your stamp on and go to the post office and you know i think that sending it out is paper is fine but letting it come back is paper letting it come back electronically i think giving the really getting back in there would be a there would be an you know serial number and the first question you would be able to relate that back to what address it was you would want to remove that from when you tabulate your final results you know you're going to be tabling anyway right to find out what with the you know the average as our questioner you know the me and all that stuff so the question is i mean do do do do would people mind you know just letting us verify right renters don't have the say it all depends on him to say right so the postcard could a postcard and then maybe you could say how many adults are in your home right and have them affirm that they're homeowner i mean your post heard the code on the postcard could be the street address of the first three letters of the street or something like that kevin's time is limited what i would say this is an important issue to the city if this means that we want to go there pollsters there are companies that could do this basically is where the questions came from you know if you could have two n c p programs which would they be if the avocation agreements had a threshold would you be more likely to sign  to my mind what your end goal what you really want to do with the state is but if that if you just look at the thought that they should take back and leave the council's going to need to take a position on what you want in the  and so if you're better informed with what the neighborhood wants them slowly and this was a pretty concrete i mean you could go through it i mean it was great if i thought gave you the answers from the  homeowners of all the options that were available and which one to like you could pick multiple ones you could it wasn't simple yes or no it was well i mean it was simple but it was  specific enough so then you could tabulated and say you know there's a five percent and think this way there are sixty five percent it would go these two different ways there are paper based forms that can be thought through a machine to structure the questions and  you're going to have some pretty system that has to pull all the addresses of all these cards anyway right are they going to hand they're dressed are they going to be machine address to be fit we sent them to a mailing house oh a symbol of ok which we could do again  well they cost one or two bucks apiece you know with the whole scheme of things that's i mean i think it's important to have that kind of your purse not to listen to us you know soledad the idea details from the past so we can say well where is your chance each of us are not residents but this is the response of you know whatever it is sixty percent of the residents so we're advocating on their behalf these are things that we want in the program or they wanted a program or not saw those but sometimes it really is opposition against a vote no you see i'm all over the place in burlington so i don't know if we i strongly support regional dispatch and if that means give one hundred bucks to vote yes for regional dispatch i'm all for it i just don't want