thank you let me call the committee to order oversight hearing expanding access to federal to federal labs for for persons with disabilities thank you as some committee comes to order let me indicate that our colleague mr pierce will be joining us shortly and at that time if he has an opening comment and that courtesy will be extended to him i want to welcome our witnesses today particularly those of you traveled to on very short notice to be with us in this hearing today we are examining the development and implementation of the access board's guidelines for improving access to outdoor developed areas managed by our federal agencies these are these agencies have a duty to provide a diversity of recreation opportunity for the widest cross section of america not only for persons with disabilities but also the elderly and under served minorities we want to make our public land visitors look like the rest of america will hear from some of our witnesses the development of these guidelines has been a long and not always straight trail but we have appeared to be in the homestretch and advances and universal design new technologies and new thinking are offering enormous possibilities for providing access to places and experience once thought out of reach for persons with disabilities we are looking forward to hearing from these witnesses today about expanding opportunities and the continuing challenges that we face and as i indicated we'll wait for the ranking members remarks when when he gets here but let me welcome you and let me at the outset tell you that five minutes for your presentation  full statement will be made part of the record any extraneous material that you wish to include and that is well let me welcome our first panel and begin with mr james bedwell director recreation heritage and volunteer resources forest service welcome sir and look forward to your testimony thank you mr chairman and members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to testify about our efforts to expand access to recreation opportunities on the national forest for all americans and particularly those with disabilities while i'm currently the director of recreation long after graduating from the university of arizona in one nine hundred seventy nine i was the chief landscape architect of the forest service with responsibility for the accessibility program from one nine hundred ninety six to two thousand i have with me the current forest service accessibility program manager janet zeller and as well as the agency's first accessibility  manager joe meade now the for a supervisor the two guys national forest in alaska and with the chairman's permission i may direct questions at the end of the panel to either of them with one hundred ninety three million acres and more than three hundred thirty four million recreation visits each year the forest service provides the largest diversity of outdoor recreation opportunities in the country the forest service strives to maximize accessibility without fundamentally altering o recreational experiences of the natural environment this approach is critical because while people of all abilities recreating our national forests and grasslands may look for a large range of opportunities from highly developed areas with paving in hot showers to remote areas where there are few or no visitor amenities they all have one thing in common they're there to experience the natural environment the forest service has a long history of commitment to excess ability beyond that required by all the applicable laws and regulations for instance we've had a policy of universal design is what we called it since one thousand nine hundred three this is meant that if the forest service builds accessibility will be integrated one hundred percent of all facilities that are newly constructed or altered must be accessible and appropriate to the natural setting a benefit for visitors of all abilities ten years ago the forest service worked with the access board along with other agencies and organizations to develop the access board's draft guidelines for outdoor developed areas i personally participated in that process with many others in the room on the regulatory negotiation committee and we all have a lot of memories of ultimately those draft guidelines would be published in two thousand and seven as the access board's proposed rule however in two thousand and two it became apparent that the access board's rule making process would be delayed and the forest service because of those hundreds of millions of sitters and and lots of work going on needed excess ability guidance for our agency that had been through a public comment process we had the great advantage of in two thousand and two that we had the access board's draft guidelines to base ours on in may of two thousand and six we finished our work and published in the federal register our final revise forest service policy manuals which directs the use of our excess accessibility guidelines for outdoor recreation areas and trails in two thousand and five we developed a regulatory impact analysis that evaluated the previous twelve years of forest service facility construction that analysis demonstrated that accessible facilities are cost effective while providing those benefits for all people in our fifteen years of focus on accessibility the number of accessible facilities has increased every year as facilities are constructed or altered and we apply all of our resources available toward improving accessibility each national forest and grassland has outstanding examples of facilities and trails that are accessible and harmonize with the natural setting we continue to work with the access board in a collaborative and complimentary manner sharing the details of what we've learned as we implement our forest service guidelines and based on our successful field implementation of our guidelines it's clear that the access board's proposed guidelines for outdoor developed areas will also be effective we're confident of that in summary the forest service is committed through our policies and actions to the continuous improvement of accessibility for all americans we're submitting our forest service accessibility guidebook on outdoor recreation trails for the record we're really proud of this publication and it's clear representation of the forest service accessibility guidelines as well as his overview of our entire accessibility program we'd be glad to provide any member of the subcommittee with a copy mr chairman this concludes my my testimony will be happy to answer any questions or will you or any other committee members may have thank you thank you very much and let me know knowledge my board member a public member sir your comments thank you mr chairman good morning i am pleased to present testimony on behalf of the architectural and transportation barriers compliance board better known as the us access board i'm philip pearce a public member from college station texas and chairman of the board ad hoc committee on outdoor developed areas accompanying me today are bill bought and accessibility specialist and the staff member with the access board assigned specifically to the outdoor developed areas guidelines and also several other members of the access board and staff that are here in the in the audience were placed to come before the subcommittee to update you on the progress of the board's guidelines for outdoor developed areas from our early efforts to enforce the architectural barriers act of night two hundred sixty eight to our ongoing efforts to write accessibility guidelines under the americans with disabilities act the access board's objectives has always been the same to improve access for persons with disabilities throughout our nation the access board the national park service u s forest service and other federal land management agencies have a long history of working together to improve access these agencies have provided invaluable input to our efforts to make outdoor developed areas more accessible to persons with disabilities the department of interior is a member of the u s access board staff from the access board and our federal partners are continually c ollaborating on ways to make public lands more accessible access board members and staff have visited several national parks forests and beaches to gain firsthand knowledge of the unique challenges of providing access in this dynamic environment now let me address our current rule making for outdoor developed areas when we use the term outdoor developed areas we're talking about trails beach access routes camping and picnic areas the access board acknowledges that these areas are often very unique and that ultimately our accessibility guidelines must strike a fine balance between the need to provide access for persons with disabilities protect the natural environment preserve historic structures and take into account accessibility a feasibility as the board has worked its way through the many issues surrounding access to outdoor developed areas we have sought to promote thoughtful deliberation among all affected parties in july hundred ninety three the board convened a recreation access advisory committee in the following year the report became the basis of an advance notice of proposed rule making the comments we received from the advance notice revealed that there was a lack of consensus on several issues including how to make trails accessible consequently the board formed a regulatory negotiating committee to resolve the issues the regulatory negotiation committee met for two years and produce a consensus report based that that is the basis for the accessibility requirements for outdoor developed areas and this form this report form the basis for the board's notice of proposed rule making which was published in the federal register in june of two thousand and seven for public comment that this board's original rulemaking plan call for issuing a proposed rule under both the americans with disabilities act for public accommodations and for state local entities and the architectural barriers act for federal agencies however the board decided to proceed more methodic the two thousand and seven proposed rule was issued based soley on our rule making authority under the architectural barriers act the proposed rule addressed outdoor developed areas that are designed built or altered by federal agencies the board decided to limit this rule making initially to facilities covered by the architectural barriers act in order to gain a better understanding of the rules impact on federal parks forest and seashores prior to making the provisions applicable to outdoor developed areas in the private sector and for state and local governments covered by the americans with disabilities act let me give you two examples of key provisions that were included in the in the proposed rule the trail guidelines are based on an exception approach for example when designing a trail a design or should assume it to be fully accessible when you need conditions such as extreme terrain or environmental issues are present departures from the technical provisions are permitted after the condition is no longer present the technical provisions are again applied another key provision in the trail section is the requirement for signage is provided information such as running slope cross floats trail within the type of surface a user can expect is helpful to the users providing standard information to enable all users and especially persons with disabilities the opportunity to choose appropriate hikes for their skill and ability level is important i'm going to skip some of my text and go right to the end of it and wrap up since i'm about out of time as we travel the country the board has been pleased to learn that many state local governments and some private sector entities have already begun to use portions of the proposed rule to increase access for persons with disabilities we believe that rulemaking on down outdoor developed areas will better assist in creating and enhancing outdoor recreation experiences for persons with conservation division of land and forest welcome look forward to your testimony good morning mr chairman and members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today to share new york's experience with implementing the accessibility guidelines for outdoor developed areas my name is carol fraser i am the universal access coordinator for the new york state department of environmental conservation the department of environmental conservation administers jurisdiction over four point five million acres of state land our universal access program was born in two thousand and one in response to a lawsuit brought under the americans with disabilities act by individuals seeking motorized access in our forest preserve a settlement was reached when the d c offered a list of one hundred eighty five diverse projects that when constructed would offer accessibility to programs such as camping fishing canoeing hunting boating picnicking horseback riding and birdwatching these projects and dozens of others across our state were constructed using the guidelines put forth by the access board's nine hundred ninety nine regulatory negotiation committee for outdoor developed areas in general our experience in new york with the use of the access board minimum guidelines has been a positive one as an agency whose statutorily defined mission is to protect and preserve the natural areas of the state we found the guidelines provide adequate protection while maximizing accessibility the response from the public has been overwhelmingly positive the success of our program stems from a commitment to training our staff working with an advisory committee that consists of recreationists with disabilities and the outreach to educate the public that continues to be our priority based on our experience there are few areas where we routinely designed beyond what the guidelines were suggesting the first is beach access where we provide at least a sixty inch with a firm and stable surface we found that once a mat or pathway was established across the beach many people choose to use that pa and the thirty six inch with was too narrow however there should be an exemption to allow a more narrow with if dunes or other natural resources would be impacted by the sixty inch with also the three inch edge protection on tent platforms could create a difficulty for wheelchair users to transfer we suggest that an area be kept free of edge protection for the option of transfer in addition we recommend that the conditions for departure for trails also apply to outdoor recreation areas outdoor recreation routes excuse me in back country areas especially in conclusion we applaud the work of the access board for to helping to develop these important guidelines which serve to create accessibility and protect the natural resource thereby preserving the fundamental experience for  goal to provide a balanced approach to accessibility and provide people with as many choices as possible while protecting the natural character that people see in exploring the great outdoors thank you thank you very much you know ask mr stephen white national park service for your comments and your testimony and welcome mr chairman and members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to provide an update on the status of expanding access to federal lands managed by the department of interior for people with disabilities we also welcome the opportunity to provide general comments on the u s access board proposed rule for accessibility guidelines for outdoor developed areas accompanying me today are representatives from the u s fish and wildlife service the bureau of land management and the bureau of reclamation who can answer  specific questions about accessibility programs and initiatives in those bureaus one man eleventh two thousand and six we were pleased to be able to participate in the hearing before this subcommittee where we highlighted directors order number forty two that directed the national park service managers to provide the highest level of access practical while ensuring consistency with our other legal mandates for conservation  protection of the resources that we manage today our goal remains the same i would like to highlight a few examples of initiatives and projects within the department of interior that have improved access to federal lands by people with disabilities at the chesapeake and ohio canal national historical park the national park service completed the development of a new unit personally accessible canal boat which provides easy access to the entry level and inclined lift to provide access for wheelchair users to the upper deck and accessible restrooms facilities it also address the need of individuals with hearing limitations through the installation of a state of the art sound system that distributes high quality sound equally to all areas of the boat it is estimated that the new design with accessibility features will enable an additional two thousand individuals with mobility limitations per year to participate in this experience the national park service has also launched a new web site that provides information to aid visitors with disabilities and special needs  be able to find accessible trails programs and activities and other features at national park units nationwide the u s fish and wildlife services visitor facility enhancement construction program funds small scale outdoor projects such as accessible boardwalks fishing pier hunting blinds and kiosks that allow visitors to get closer to our natural world since the program inception in two thousand and three hundreds of projects have been completed using these funds and each year the fish and wildlife service considers accessibility is a major factor in selecting new projects to fund toward the goal of ensuring everyone has equal opportunity to participate and benefit from its programs and facilities the bureau of land management conducted comprehensive exit accessibility evaluations of its recreation facilities and spent over three million dollars to implement over one hundred projects to correct deficiencies in utah the b l m completed a project to make take out beach on the colorado river more accessible to disabled boaters the newly installed accessible walkway system shelter toilets and loading area greatly facilitate exit ing the river by peoples of all abilities a local group of voters with disabilities volunteered many disabilities for example in two thousand and six a grand coulee dam in washington state the bureau of reclamation opened a newly renovated building to house the visitor center that attempted to remove all barriers within the building structure exhibits and programs the final topic i would like to touch upon is the department's response to the us access board notice of proposed rule making for accessibility guidelines for outdoor developed areas the department requested its bureaus to reviews of the proposed rule and provide comments in general all of the interior agencies were very supportive of the recommendations made in the proposed rule the department has been very actively involved in the regulatory negotiating committee that developed the majority of the proposed rule and each bureau has utilized the recommendations from the report as guidance for the design and construction of accessible trails campgrounds and picnic areas for the past several years because of its value to our bureaus the department encourages the access board to expedite the completion of the final rule in closing the department is dedicated to providing the highest level of access that is practical and is in conformance with the appropriate legal mandates and department wide and bureau why policies we have made a great deal of progress towards and hansing the quality of each bureau's accessibility programs and we will continue to build upon our recent achievements in the months and years to come thank you for the opportunity to pacify on this important topic this concludes my prepared remarks but i would be glad to answer any questions of the members may have thank you sir let me let me begin with a question for mr pearce in your experience and opinion how's the department of interior and agriculture how they responded and done in implementing the pass rules and recommendations made by you by the axis board just some point of reference for the future i would characterize it is as being very receptive and in a lot of cases they were involved in the in development of the rules and so the a transition between actually development of the rules and the implementation of the rules wasn't that that large a stretch so they have been very supportive and also very responsive to our request to make their facilities and the environmental the outdoor environment more accessible to persons with disabilities there been some areas where it seems like there may be some problems and where we may have to deal with some issues that would make it a bit difficult but i think by and large as implementation came along what we found was that that the issues the concerns that they had were really sought resolved by the way that the rule has been developed if there was problems in the implementation were how would you gauge those problems to be would be more resource based in terms of not having the resources that that's necessary in order to fully implement or expedite the implementation well i guess my best response that is this is the federal government and so we're going to thirty here to help any any any time we ask questions about if the resources are available the answer is probably you know most of the time know that they're not really available but i do know that that after the last hearing that we had a couple of years ago that there was an effort to make some additional resources available and that i think that that created a fairly positive response in terms of having excess ability projects that they felt like that they queued allies whatever resources were available resources and impetus to expediting implementation yes or i would say that's correct thank you  when you talk about attitude shift and think is part of the a part of your comments and in particularly how does that training accomplish that attitude shift from viewing compliance as a burden that the agency has to deal with versus taking pride in the accessibility for all persons and in our public lands or in your instance the parks how does that ship i think that the disability awareness training really opens people's eyes to the needs that people with disabilities have with people with various types of disabilities all so you know so so much today is focused on mobility issues but there are many other things that we take for granted just our ways of communicating with each other that people with other types of disabilities need to be we need to take that into consideration and i think the the training really brought our design staff to a better understanding of the needs that people of disabilities have and our field staff they were better able to  identify access opportunities in the natural environment after having this training you know most of us in the us we know someone with a disability we really don't know and that's what the training we don't know what the what people's needs would be and that's what the training does it helps people understand what the specific needs are and issues that people with disabilities would have the same experience back when i had another real job as a county supervisor in pima county in southern arizona and we have implemented and finally finally got approval from everyone for the first u construction the center for disability rights played a huge role in putting that together and what i saw is as you have seen is the shift from the guy having to take care of the grounds to the architect that's a staffer this is a shift in this park is now you know it's only forty acres but it's the most popular park in in all of the county and i that had tremendous impact not just that little part but the consequence and the results to the staff and to and to the public in general thank you for that comment let me turn to my colleague mr pearce for any questions he might have and then i'll come back with a question for the agency folk late r mister when on page two you're talking about the difficulty of access in some areas steepness of the incline or whatever what how do you judge when it's too much and i'm going to follow  mr pierce to answer the same question so when is it too hard do you actually bump into that or do you say it's never too hard well the guidelines provide certain parameters  and when we follow those parameters are able to do you know see what an acceptable slope is for example the slope of a ramp going into your neighborhood post offices one in twelve and that's allow  for certain distance and after that it would be difficult for someone in a manual wheelchair so and various other things like cross slope which can be very difficult over a certain distance but on trails where we have something that goes up a mountain and we don't want to bring in heavy equipment and have so many switchbacks that we've changed the character of the area we utilize that universal trail assessment process in that we just measure what exists on the trail as far as slow cross slope surface with and any obstructions and give that information to the public and they're able to make their own decision based on their own abilities as to whether they can do the trails so there's there's a range of opportunities from from wheelchair accessible trails that follow the guidelines strictly to those where we haven't really made any changes but we measure what's there and we give that information to the public and then the same question to you philip that there are circumstances where accessibility is just not practical yes there definitely are in the in the guidelines there are what we call conditions for departure and which means that there are conditions when those conditions are present that you can actually be you did from having to try to make a trail where it doesn't make any sense to put a trail where it doesn't make any sense to completely change the nature of the environment because the outdoor environment is not like the built environment where you can control  the different slopes and cross slopes and and changes in level and those sorts of things and so we recognise that and so we tried to build the opportunities for people to say well this really didn't make any sense here while at the same time not trying to give people too many excuses as to why they can't make something accessible to persons with disabilities and i think we've struck a pretty decent balance you know it's one of those things that it's taken about ten years to get us to the point where we are now and i'm  fond of saying you know the bad news is it took us ten years to get here and the good news is it's taken a stand years to get here because what's happened is we've had a lot of experience and people have learned how to be able to interpret the rules and actually make it a successful as possible without going overboard thanks mr bott so the a couple years ago we had an accessibility hearing for the park service and the comments were made by the park representatives at that point that that new buildings had been built for some time that were not a compliant has the park service gone back and looked at any of those buildings routinely and we had a systematic study and have done anything about that i think for the buildings that were built out of compliance i'm joined today by david parker who is accessibility program coordinator for the national park service and was here in two thousand and six and so with the  program manager for the national park service i think mr congressman absolutely we have gone back and looked at those i think there's been a number of steps that have been taken over the past couple of years to try to go back and look at our entire process of the way we design and construct buildings and a lot of our major projects across the country are done by a design center out of denver colorado called our denver service cent and they have taken substantial steps over the last couple years to introduce review process seize on all of those major projects so that we can avoid having those kinds of problems that were mentioned that came about in the hearing a couple of y actually done any redesign of some of the buildings that were built not in compliance yes there would you be would you give me a list of the buildings that have been reengineered in the work that's been done on the we can certainly  contemplating what you are doing in the forest service it was to respect to both wilderness access to wilderness areas and then access into the areas where the forest service is establishing the roadless rules thank you thank you  dr christianson any questions thank you thank you mr chairman and i really appreciate your having this hearing i think we've done one in the past quite some time ago but it's important that we address these ell as i look at your testimony says the costs this strictly with accessibility are negligible a negligible percentage of the overall cost of the project once we take it into consideration for the e so i'm glad that your testimony says that once it's considered from the beginning it's negligible that's very helpful to us i want to ask mr white the associate to and mr park may want to add a couple of additional comments but the national park service has looked at as you know extensively at the entire list of assets that we have of which there are some sixty thousand nationwide we're dealing with and then going through those assets we are in in significantly better shape today than we were two years ago and certainly than we were five or six years ago in terms of our ability to be able to identify accessibility needs to highlight those accessibility needs and particular and i think is most important as we are going forward with improvements on a particular facility to make sure that accessibility needs are included within those those repairs or rehabilitation so the seqlock maintenance programs that we're responsible for in the in the exciting thing about that i believe is the fact that we don't as we do those repairs it's not just a matter of coming in say for instance that a door has has gone bad and we replace an inaccessible door with an inaccessible door but rather we go through and say for a few dollars more as mr bed discusses we can improve access completely by the removal of that facility and the full replacement at one time rather than coming back and doing that again two or three years later and a lot of what has been discussed  information for our visitors i think it's also helped with awareness with our managers to go back and make sure that they have identified particular needs in their parks we have after the last hearing we went forward memo from the director the park service asking them to analyze their programs and to come forward and look at the full range of disability to say what are you doing and what can you do to make sure that your your programs as well as your facilities are accessible to all thank you yes there are guidelines in our policy covers like and incorporate that into our interpretive programs we use tactile interpretive displays and as well as recorded and guided experiences on the national for the recording sally and questions well thank you mr chairman first of all i know i guess i did an awful lot of work with folks with disabilities and i was in iowa legislature and my experience it's always best to hear from those folks and so i see is a look through the two panels that we have today it doesn't appear to me that we've got a person who actually speak to us who has a disability who's physical disability tried to get out and use some of the public lands and i know we have a lot of people who represent folks or or on boards and whatnot that are working with other folks but my experience it is always best to hear directly from those people and hear what kind of challenges that they're facing and it would do respect everybody here in my experience as well often we hear a fairly different view from most folks  plans are put together what kind of considerations of planning has been done to assure that those americans that have disabilities are given access to public lands and i will let you know that i have not studied the travel plans in detail but you know foot by foot mile by mile but i have not seen that kind of impact taken into account when those travel plans are put together can you give us an idea of how that actually works on the ground yes mr congressman i'm glad to hear that your mother is out enjoying the natural environment as well she she should there's a great number of benefits from being in the in the great outdoors  have over twenty seven thousand miles of trails and over two hundred thousand miles of roads across our hundred ninety three million acres that are that are open to motorized vehicles every of those is either has gone through or is the subject of the travel management role and is being looked at in terms of the full range of opportunities we do look at environmental impacts we look at user safety  and user conflicts but we work through on a local basis and look at the full spectrum of opportunities and use public participation to hear all all of the inputs on that and i think there's  noticed that they're close from now everything is closed unless you're notice that it's open in some instances where my mother for example could take a less troublesome route in the past  a now all of those opportunities are closed and they're limited to whatever options that the forest service dictates they'll have to go on how do you explain that  get a handle on matters recreation and if there are damages and to the environment that's an important thing to look at and that's why the rule was developed however it's not just about restriction it's about opportunity and it's about establishing a system of roads trails in areas where people will know that with certainty that that is the system that they're going to have over time as i said twenty seven thousand miles of trails two hundred thousand  miles of roads currently and we're looking at those one by one and although it is a national framework it allows for local decision making with public participation to help us set up that system of opportunities well into the future while protecting the land i'll represent to you that i have had some discussions with folks in idaho that did take a little different view and i would love to discuss that further with  information that's ok i will i will easily be able to say that most people who are wheelchair users appreciate it whenever you don't recognize that they're wheelchair users there you go i think that's good that's  mr pearce i brought up in hearings before this committee in the past that i'm always concerned when we designate additional wilderness because it just seems to me like as we designate elder areas as wilderness we really essentially are for closing anyone with a physical disability from enjoying those areas in the future q can you tell me what kind of plans we're making  accommodations that we can make for people with disabilities to enjoy wilderness areas i guess the best response i can give to is that that speaking for the access board we don't have any jurisdiction over that therefore we don't we don't make any kind of plans what we have done is developed a set of guidelines that say if you're going to be able to trail then here's what you have to do and here's the accessibility have to include but it doesn't require the federal agencies to open their their lands up to specific trails and that sort of thing that's a federal elder talk about what it takes to make an area accessible right under the forest service current outdoor recreation and trail accessibility guidelines and  thank you mr chairman janet taylor accessability program manager for the u s forest service making accessibility of reality on the ground really takes both agency commitment and clear guidelines for direction in the one nine hundred ninety s as director bedwell mentioned we surveyed all of our facilities and determined which work festival which were not and what needed to be done to make those that were not accessible since then when ever we alter or reconstruct an existing building and when we build new facilities in outdoor developed areas whether it's a individual camping unit or a scenic overlook or a larger campground even if it's a primitive toilet on a trail it is to be accessible in compliance with the forest service accessibility outdoor recreation guidelines another aspect that really helps us to improve accessibility on the ground is that our forest service requirement is for one hundred percent of all new altered or reconstructed facilities in outdoor developed areas to be excess of all and that means under this hundred percent requirement it's simplifies both the design and the purchase because there's no question as to whether or not a particular recreation site or facility is to be accessible they all are to be in addition any new or altered trails to meet the criteria are to comply with the trail accessibility guidelines so the result of our commitment to accessibility is making a difference on the ground in that it benefits all people and all people can recreate in those facilities that are designed by the forest service whether or not they have a disability folks can recreate together and i just have to share that i am an avid wilderness  valley so i really appreciate your recognition that folks with disabilities are interested in recreating in wilderness and i personally love the difficulty of getting there because i choose that and i get the great sense of of of having done it it requires pre planning and going with some friends but we can pick the spots we wish to go to and i know that we also have many places certainly within the national forests and i'm sure within the national parks where you would think you were in wilderness but you could actually drive a motorhome there and it would still be completely within the guidelines so i think it's really important that folks have that first accessibility coordinator i was the second janet is the third and he's now for a supervisor on the tube but we'll bring you up thank you very much mr chairman it's a honor to be here and to speak on behalf of the forest service but public lands on the whole and our passion for ensuring that all americans have access to our great outdoors the a couple of areas that i would system vastly en route and we have ninety miles of forest road one would anticipate that we couldn't and would be them the least excess of all of our national forests in the system because of attitude in leadership we actually are amongst the agencies most excessi you alternative ways such as floatplanes boats ferry systems but when you arrive we've insured that in our constructed features as janet so well noted that we incorporate accessibility into all of those our capital investment program so it's just a matter of how we approach integrating universal designs for accessibility in our outdoor recreation environments across the board another unique opportunity that we've had thanks to  our congress has been the ability to take the alternative to transportation for parks and public lands authorities and through grants with that and a partnership with the alaska railroad we've actually built whistle stops up in the heart of th folks of all abilities can fly into our international airport arrive by cruise ship to want of our ports or come up along the all american highway the seward highway in your vehicle if you can afford four dollars a gallon and as you ar e you can go ahead and board the alaska railroad and offload a number of our remote and isolated back country areas and enjoy a universally designed set of trails that take you to spencer glacier a whole host of unique back country truly back country settings with brown bear and moose and the like and have a stunning outdoor recreation experience and in the near future actually stay at a accessible public use cabin but i'd like to summarize or or close by highlight all of this is really about attitude and leadership the folks that are in this room for the past fifty years many have been working on the importance of the empowering legislation we have to help ensure the people of all abilities have access to all aspects of our  american dream the most important ingredient that i can add that we need to still do today is we need more outdoor recreation this with a range of abilities out recreating we need more individuals with disabilities  working for our federal agencies that help ensure those opportunities are out there and through that we break stereotypes and be able to frame attitudes that ensure we provide the leadership needed for the accessibility principles that are being spoken of so well by th thank you thank you sir and mr bedwell if you wouldn't mind for the record if you would  testimony that the forest service requires one hundred percent accessibility the campgrounds or whatever in practical terms what percent of those and how do you all the other words i've been backpacking and you find facilities a long way away from anywhere and they would not be practically accessible how do you all deal with the whole idea of motorised transport you heard mr salim comments that that maybe we've got accessibility to remote campgrounds but we don't have the capability to get to the remote campgrounds by the aging and so what do you all do as far as motorized access what is what charles recommendation from the access bo real answer that question is we don't have any recommendation about how you get there about motorized means we leave that up to the individual to determine what sorts of transport that they would have to have to get to the kinds of campgrounds and that sort of thing that are available and so and in some cases you're going to have circumstances where someone who uses a walker or uses a cane or something like that there may be some some accessible elements in an outdoor developed area that they simply can't get to because because there's no means of transporting themselves there other than some sort of motorized  mobility device but we don't we don't have anything in our rules about requiring or allowing either way mobility devices of any nature mr bedwell you had mentioned that there's twenty seven thousand miles of trails two hundred thousand miles of road in the forests how many of those would actually know the roads what percent of the roads would come under the rules that are currently being promulgated by the service what is your gas on that just  wilderness there are practically none and wilderness but in roadless there are very few of those two hundred thousand miles of roads there are some roads in roadless areas but it's a small a mile there are some trails that  have you as a forest service done any legal inquiries into the lawfulness shutting down the roads that are in the wilderness areas other words the second district of new mexico has the heel wilderness about i think three million acres in that one forest system and the the intent is to close the road that runs right through the middle of it which would shut off access to anyone being who is areas either through roadless rules in the forest or roadless or the closing of a stablish roads in wilderness areas themselves i'm not familiar with that case  mexico it's it's one of the highlights of our entire state and to say that to people without who can backpack can't see it is a pretty extreme position really and one that that i hear about the limitation of access mister that's right so if you were to guess about the appalachian trail about what percentage actually handicap accessible mung was it twenty seven hundred miles or so sir i don't know i don't know whether it's a gas just is it in the five or six ten miles i mean you mentioned in your and your testimony some areas that have a mile loop here and a mile loop there the best way that i think i can answer that question mr sally any follow up questions thank you before i end with this panel let me mr what so that was one question that i like to follow up on how many of the department of interior agencies have a dedicated funding category for completing accessibility projects and and if so how do these accessibility projects compete for with other categories for project funding is there a dedicated source within some of the agencies that's fundamentally the question there are i can i can speak for the national park service in that we don't in the park service have a set aside program specifically we have on occasion dedicated a portion of an account to work on accessibility issues but we do not have a dedicated program i am joined by colleagues from colleagues in yourself could submit to the committee the response to that particular question about dedicated funding and very much appreciated because part of the assessment i hope to do after this is look at the resource question very very know what parts did you were you able to see the southern part around boise boise national forest middle fork of the salmon been there ok me thank you very much for your time and your testimony and with that invite the the next panel up for their testimony thank you very much  thank you very much for let me welcome to the witnesses and thank you for your time and let me begin our second panel with tipton re the wilderness inquiry your comments and your testimony sir and thank you for being here good morning and thank you very much mr chairman members of the committee and allowed me to to come in here today and talk with you i'm representing wilderness and corey my name is tipton ray i'm a consultant based in minneapolis is a nonprofit organization which conducts outdoor recreation programs for people of all abilities utilizing federal lands as a backdrop for many of its adventures places like yellowstone national park to gotch which  to provide outdoor adventure experiences that inspire personal growth community integration and enhanced awareness of the environment wellness inquiry adventures encourage people to open themselves to new possibilities and opportunities close quote we are committed to integrating people with varying levels of ability on our trips in fact well nursing career was started in one thousand nine hundred seventy eight to demonstrate that people with disabilities can enjoy wilderness just like everyone else on its own terms our philosophy is to treat each person as an individual rather than as a disability we focus on people's abilities and what they can do not on what they cannot do we treat every participant equally recognizing that each has a vital role to play in the success of a trip we are recognized as a national  internet a leader in outdoor adventure programming that include people with and without disabilities in addition to our trips we partner with many organizations to provide training outdoor skills workshops at community events and conduct research or develop curriculum we have sign memorandum of understanding with each of the federal land management agencies we have also taken the lead on several congressionally mandated studies on how the federal government can improve access to outdoor recreation when talking with prospective participants about our  trips we are upfront about the extent and severity of the obstacles they are likely to face we offer no illusions about accessibility we do not look for the easiest most accessible trip or route we look instead for the potential experience offered by an area we have learned not to depend on accessible outdoor developed areas for many to individuals with disabilities having to give up their independence is a paramount importance they come to the trip aware that they must at times rely on the assistance of staff and co participants to lend a hand with mobility around the campsite and their daily routine if necessary like eating dressing or those of a more personal nature such as toileting the person with a disability who is more independent at home can sometimes feel helpless and burdensome to staff in the group accessible facilities and elements one provided afford our participants the opportunity to retain their independence as much as possible maintain feelings of self worth as well as feel included as a valued member of the group when participants without disabilities observe those who have disabilities functioning independently ably and in their minds normally stereotypes are eliminated and they start to focus on their co participants in new ways as peers people who need help the access board is raise various questions with respect to the number or percentages of elements within outdoor developed areas that should be required to be accessible facilities or place in  country areas primarily for resource protection and visitors are often instructed to concentrate their use of at these sites this is especially true for the boundary waters canoe area wilderness a part of the superior national forest and a frequent and convenient destination for us we wholeheartedly agree with this management approach however that means our groups have no choice but to camp in these established overnight sites since we cannot predict where we will where we may stop at the end of the travel day or which camp sites might be available it's essential that all facilities and elements when provided meet accessibility standards it can be said that participation on our outdoor adventure trips is challenged by choice one can choose to travel into remote and rugged back country even if that means they will need to wreck the systems to do so and if that is the type of experience they want but using a toilet facility for example isn't a choice therefore it shouldn't be a challenge we recognize the difficulties inherent in providing facility and programatic accessibility to individuals with disabilities of outdoor recreation settings however we believe that a federal land managers choose to modify outdoor environments to protect resources and provide conveniences to visitors than those facilities an element should be accessible to the extent feasible if you'd like to learn more about our organization we do have a website to study w w wilderness inquiry dot org we've got a few people in the audience here that we've heard from  already who have actually been on some of our trips if you like more personal perspective we can talk to them i would be happy to address any questions that you have and if i can't respond to those i'd be happy to take those back to our executive director greg lace and get back to you thank you thank you very much let me know as mr lew deal director outdoor program support services robinson international  sir thank you for allowing me to be here david chairman i'm probably a fish out of water here with all these other folks i'm a retired marine cobra pilot and i began working with disabled veterans when i was still on active duty in one nine hundred ninety three a quantico virginia my goal was to establish a permanent full blown hunting program for some of my buddies who came back and were shot up pretty bad and from there i learned a great deal about what was going on our military lands and went on to help pass the disabled sportsman's access act and from that working with organizations like the paralyzed veterans of america and now also with the armed forces foundation we're trying to provide opportunities for wounded warriors and disabled veterans to access the out of doors i've been and i've been involved with programs and projects from alaska to florida and while there's a lot of things talked about here today about access and programs i would like to talk about one narrow aspect but i think the very critical aspect when you provide access to an area i can take wounded from walter  bethesda put him in a wheelchair accessible van driving down a road get him out on one trail but if they want to hunt there's another piece of that puzzle that you need to think about or ask you to consider that's adaptive equipment there's a variety of things off the shelf that you can put out there that will allow an individual to enjoy the outdoors and on a program safely and once it's over with take that away i heard someone talk about building ground blinds that's ok and we did that at quantico but it takes away from the natural environment it's also a maintenance problem and things change animals pattern differently so i would ask you look at some of the off the shelf products that are out there there's a device called a hunt master we've put about forty of these we being the paralyzed veterans of america and other organizations across the country stand so much trailer goes up twenty one feet it's fully enclosed another safety aspect if i'm working with a young man out of walter reed lost both his legs and he's out there trying to hunt and it's cold i've got a real safety issue you can that environment for that individual put a heater in there and everything's fine and if it starts to rain you don't have to worry you can stay in there the other thing is these mobile the pop up lines in the hunt master when you're done you take them away and you can storm for the wintertime bring them back out whenever you need them they're also a great platform for wildlife dealing i've had older veterans who said i don't want to one of the more but my granddaughter likes to take photos they go out  on master and they take photos of deer turkeys except in the programs i don't know if these agencies are reaching out to the veterans hospitals you know we have you outdoor activities as recreation but for these folks it's therapy i've been there now for a long time watching the impact it has to get somebody out and let them enjoy the outdoors and feel whole again and the socialization and i take to help come to mexico every i said don't go home and say that please but that's what i'm trying to today to say look please look at adaptive equipment off the shelf get it out there and provide a safe and sporting hunt for these individuals also  that's all i've got any questions and thank you for let me be here today thank you sir let me know ask william little chief executive officer barzee adventures incorporated your visitors we mean equal access for all the g p s ranger is a rugged handheld computer we've built in g p s receiver and how it works is when a person comes within range of a point of ventures the g p s ranger will automatically present  trigger pre loaded multimedia content this content can be an audio video text animation historical photos music or any combination of the g p s range it can be used for creating driving boating tours for any location in the world tours can be developed for any demographic any language and address and a disability g p s friends are currently deployed at eight different locations within the national park system and city walking tours in north america and developing the g p s ranger product offering the importance of eighty eight compliance became abundantly clear after being asked by harpers ferry media center staff about the rangers capability to meet we incorporated compliance into our hardware and software development strategy the g p s ranger support success ability for the deaf and hard of hearing through the use of captioning the sign language and response to the m p s media centers request and at our expense we developed the first campaign tour of martin luther king historical site recently we went one step further with the creation of a full captioning and american sign language tour as part of our installation at the independence visitor center part of the independence national historical park at this venue you can get a g p s range from five languages all with captioning as well as in sign language in philadelphia we added a s l at our expense to prove that we can sport and set the bar for equal access for interpretive information the g p s ranger's been approved by the national center on accessibility an organization i believe that  supported by the national parks for those with visual impairments the g p s ranger can be programmed to offer full audio description tour that is triggered automatically based on the location of the user the g p s ranger helps those with physical disabilities by highlighting available and the locations of accessible amenities in the outdoor developed areas as public lands make available accessible picnic tables fairings trails and ramps or other technology ancestry are using utilizing the g p s ranger system to deliver on site information release the significant spens of physical signage person purchase physical signage installation and maintenance and helps maintain the beauty of outdoor areas in the g p s range or can be programmed to meet your goals of full access for all visitors throughout the public land system there are a variety of tour solutions which are not  compliant those include audiotape or sound at ellis island and statue of liberty alcatraz and the u s s arizona cellphone tours which are available at valley forge and right here at the national mall in p three audio tours which are found at numerous then use the g p s ranger as a cost effective communication platform for expanding accessibility and also to support the interpretive mission of the parks by providing meaningful interpretive content for all visitors as i mentioned our system can be programmed to support multiple tours accessible market as well as for the general domestic and international visitors traditionally supporting accessibility is difficult and expensive than public lands a few weeks ago my company was at the grand canyon and meeting with the chief of interpretation while there a request for a sign interpreter was made so i death th park the m p s staff told us that meeting this request is time consuming complicated and costly to find a personal sign interpreter for their death as the g p s ranger with sign language caption in an audio description offers multiple benefits it saves the park from ongoing expense of providing sign interpreters it allows the deaf and visually impaired visitor the freedom to show up and tour the park on their own schedule and at their own pace in nearly all the cases the g p s ranch will pay for itself in a matter of months in closing i hope that this committee will take a leadership role to address access and public lands the position you'll take wil trickle down effect outside of the federal land system and the fact decisions in state parks theme parks zoos public gardens and museums with your leadership you can raise the bar for all venues which will pave the way for equal access for all thank you thank you very much david start executive director appalachian trail conservancy thank you for being here to look forward to testimony members of the committee  i'm kind of a simple footpath but actually i'd like to make use of a little technology this morning and rely on the power point as a way to best illustrate some examples of accessible design that we've incorporated along the appalachian mountain chain it was developed initially in the nineteen twenty's and thirty's and it is almost entirely designed constructed and maintained by  volunteers some characteristics about the appalachian trail are somewhat relevant to the discussion today because some of those characteristics do conspire to add to the challenges of incorporating accessible design many of these characteristics are also representative of a lot of other back country trails in the united states such thing as primitive character limited motor vehicle access significant took a graphic variation many natural barriers and so forth not withstanding those challenges we have gained some experience in the last eight years or so in developing some accessible segments of the trail as well as some extent accessible back country campsites the first of those was in falls billet in western connecticut this was developed in the year two thousand about a one mile loop trail about half of which serves as the right of way for the appalachian trail generally following the banks of the whose tonic river there and recent count indicate a visitation of about twenty three thousand visitors along that segment in the year two thousand and five our largest project to date is in western new jersey in vernon township involving a boardwalk design again using the helical pier system as well as a land based portion this was in killington vermont an area called during falls and that those two sections  eventually lead to what the access board would call the primary feature in this case thundering falls appropriately enough and this was just opened last year  unlike the other examples this is a more highland area the osborne track in the area called shady valley tennessee this would be mr duncan's backyard there we developed a point seven mile  graded and gravel pathway this is not a loop involves a turn around the end and technically that bench doesn't meet standard because there's no back support but i think we've since added that next example actually is not built yet and i didn't include this soley for mr haynes he's benefit but this isn't a mountain state park i included it rather because this ultimately will probably enjoy some of the highest visitation we'll see anywhere along the appalachian trail it's a very popular section only forty miles from new york city and the summit which is where we're developing the accessible segment currently it's visitation of about  half a million people per year the topography is fairly forgiving and so forth conversely it's much more challenging these aren't absolutes but it is more challenging where we do not have good road access where there are a lot of barriers where there's significant top graphic variation and where we have conflicting use problems i haven't spoken much this morning about overnight camp sites but we have again had some experience with those at this point we've developed perhaps six or eight primarily in our southern region in the national forest system it's been our experience that we can pretty easily modify our shelters or lean tos to accommodate transfer from wheelchairs we can also provide toilet enclosures or privies that can accommodate come in a wheelchair access although it does require a little larger footprint a little larger enclosure but in none of those instances that i'm aware of do the trails leading to those campsites or the trails connecting those elements currently training more resources for truck instruction and maintenance and more administrative support thank you thank you very much and let me before we start moving to  afford us the opportunity to have a hands on demonstration at the end of the question period thank you for that sir  a emerge or are emerging are being helpful in dealing with the accessibility issues that are sometimes difficult into primitive primitive areas wilderness areas and you could just yes we are in two respects  first is a noted in the slides i mean our tennessee as has been to place primary reliance on hand tools and on volunteers but we do have some relatively new equipment in our arsenal for example  pier system that i described was a fairly new innovation at least for us and that also requires a special motor driven driver to sink those piers we also currently make use of what's called a cobra rock drill for cutting rock surfaces and things like stepping stones and so forth and of course we're also seeing some technological advances with mobility devices themselves wheelchairs for example that are more capable of very during travel all and that sort of thing and let me do one other question before i move on to is i think in your testimony you mentioned the high costs for the measures that you've been involved with the retrofit and specifically your accessibility projects other witnesses indicated that if these are done at the initial point of planning on a particular project that the cost is nominal at best i soon that because most of the work you're doing is retrofitting an existing trail that that cost would be up would be higher but you also made a good point i think at the end about the increased the potential increase maintenance and enforcement costs could you could you maybe expand on on that last frame that you had up there certainly and i should note that i don't necessarily agree with the observation that th cost can be maybe only incrementally higher i mean in a case like the pope's boardwalk for example you know we had a crystal constructed boardwalk in any event and so it just became a question where we would normally build only with hand tools and not import surfacing materials if instead you elect to do that then the costs are going to going to go pretty high but if you look at the total cost numbers i meaning no risk disrespect to public agency colleagues our construction costs are pretty low relative to most federal agencies again because we place such great reliance on volunteers there are maintenance issues because particularly in the some of the gravel section gravel surface sections that i illustrated we have to go back more frequently in order to maintain the wit as well as to assure that the drainage call routes and so forth are working properly because other otherwise we can fairly quickly deviate from some of the guidelines with respect to slope cross slope drainage and particularly firm and stable surfacing so there is a maintenance impact at least in terms of frequency of of maintenance thank you and i don't have any questions dio just to acknowledge i thought was a very good point you made in terms of accessibility to the public lands and the outreach program mean that should be done or isn't being done with the degree that you would like or others would like regarding the outreach and programming for veterans with disabilities i thought that was a very important point appreciate very much  there was mr mr raydon your written testimony you allude to or speak to a national council on disability report on the effect of wilderness designations in the abilities and the ability of individuals with disabilities to use and enjoy the lads could you briefly be share with us what some of those findings were in the report unfortunately i don't have that report with me i wasn't involved with that with that study myself during my work with laura with waterson corey but i could try to get a copy of that report to  chairman asked my question also the i must mr ray you deal with with people who are seeking to go out you set up tours for people just generally speaking if you're going to call at random parks  what how how often do you have to hang out and say well we'll try the next park in other words are all of the three hundred ninety one parks can you call them at random and say i've got a group of people with accessibility problems and they say oh good we're all tarps cat hole you know in the woods someplace to accommodate are individuals who need that accommodation on time i guess i'm trying to get an understanding of the culture inside the park service because again based on our hearing a couple of years ago i felt like that there was almost a dismissal of the needs of the handicapped and is that some we have seen an improvement over the years or is it basically yes i think so i think so  of the weight but but from a practical standpoint we don't have any place to plug them in to recharge the batteries so what we do provide however if an individual does not have a standard wheelchair or not motorized wheelchair to bring along we do have that equipment that we can bring along and low and obviously that it's not the best alternative because the individual using that motorized chair may not be able to  they or you know a mobility assistance device is defined by eighty eight a b a the question of course would be where it's actually feasible to use them no they are not prohibited the reason i'm asking because they are prohibited in national parks they were thrown off of people on segues with double amputee was thrown off of one of the monuments here in washington where they said that as a motorized wheelchair that the d o t it declared those that still significant problems and definition exist and if we're going to know if we've got one of our colleagues mr langham and from rhode island on a segway and if he's not going to be allowed access because it's motorized and i have a severe problem have shooting in the national parks how many are you comfortable that you can call any at random and they're going to say yes we are handicap accessible or is that do you have to really designed the trip in advance of my experiences have been mostly with military bases national parks i don't think they're shooting at the national force of course and when i talked about earlier as you can provide access you can get somebody there at the adaptive equipment that i think is needed is the bridge  up lines in the hot master except we just finished a project in north carolina where every district in north carolina now has a hot master so that it's fully accessible from the mountains to the seashore that's my area of  thank you mr chairman and thanks for putting i gather this hearing i am just delighted to hear the emphasis on what can be done with an emphasis on can  clearly we want to extend the enjoyment of the access enjoyment and use of america's treasures to all and i spend a fair amount of time in my job talking with school boards about i d e a or businesses about a d a that are not focusing on what can be done but rather that the cost and the school boards will say well we're putting in  customer with limited access abilities and i say no you're not spending the money for those students or for those customers you're spending the money to advance the american ideal we don't have categories of citizenship in this country and each american deserves access to the full range of rights and opportunities and so i'm just delighted mr chair that that that you are holding this hearing and i'm even more pleased by the the the can do attitude that is coming out in the testimony kind of a bottom line question for all all the panel states and i mentioned local communities my own experience local government missa pallet he's the private sector is a they all seem to be on the cutting edge in terms of  the use of new technologies taking that can do attitude mr holt talked about and my question is is that our federal agencies that we're talking about at this hearing the volunteer base who provide resources and i'm not talking just about you know helping with our download or whatever they come in with ideas about you know how how can we  history in working with the department of interior folks and us state a forest service that you know they continue to come to us even to ask little once again my experience has been very narrow basically you know with military bases and every piece of equipment that we've put out there has been done with private  donations all the pontoon boats the pop up lines and we even put some trailer blinds that will chair accessible in idaho has been done with private donations it hasn't cost the federal government a penny it might be something to think about down the road with a little funding because it's a lot cheaper to do that than the build ground lines that are going to be destroyed by you know the knuckleheads to go around i think that's fun i also think that some of the agencies are just overwhelmed i mean  there but my goodness the things that are on their plate to get done and get it done now or yesterday is pretty amazing but there are some grassroots organizations out there that are support you know the appalachian trail folks or the volunteers that are out there it's just a matter of leadership federal lands and i've got your ask a very interesting question the for profit and usually the larger for profit theme parks are very sensitive to eighty a issues and have a da related departments to address those issues the state of california has taken a very role in making sure that they help the hard of hearing and the deaf community by adding captioning on everything that they come out with i think that when i'm seen in the federal side the general interest meetings like today for i think what the one thing is the lack of understand that technology exists today to make this successful for all and one of the tenets of the national parks is to provide interpretation so today there are tools like my products that are available to add it in for those who are hard of hearing deaf and visually impaired this is a political and multiple markets and there are other vendors to do something similar like this so i think in answer your question everyone is moving in the same path what what i hear from and i can cite one guy in specific the dallas what they're looking for someone to come up and say this is a blueprint on how to do it and they want someone to tell me what i can do to help meet those guidelines and that's what's missing out there is if you do this this this this and i'll struggle i'll tell you when we came up with this product we struggle from a technical perspective as to how big of the font size the captioning needs to be do we put sign language and audio at the same time there was no standards out there for us to follow so we took a guess and came up with private and public sector so perhaps the the greater issue is how effectively we're sharing that information and perhaps you know one issue that might be worth exploring among associated with those the other way i think i'd respond to that question is as mr holder noted a moment ago i you know i'm also encouraged to see more we can do attitude particularly in the three years where i think many of us and i include my own organization and this are perhaps falling down a little bit is in not doing a more effective job actually  telling visitors where opportunities exist you know i mean we've gone to we've devoted a fair amount of energy to developing some accessible segments and yet there's nowhere on our website for example where a person who's interested in finding that opportunity can learn about it they might learn about it if they happen to call some of our visitors services staff but but otherwise you know it's just it's just and i suspect that's t the agencies as well is you know we could all do a better job letting people know where opportunities exist and what conditions they're likely to encounter so they can make informed judgments about whether they can they can use a particular segment of trail or facility or what have you thank you mr pearce and the question follow well just general with your permission we've got a lot of people in the audience today that might have a comment and believe me we both need to be out of here and just out for five minutes but if there is with your permission much chairman if there one or two people here with accessibility problems that would like to make a comment from the audience can we that i i really like the way that congressman holt spoke to this issue in his statement talking about that we don't have categories of citizenship in this country and that that applies to the accessibility to our great and precious public lands and i look forward to working with the agencies and with the outside agencies as well to look at issues of resources look at issues of  personnel training look at issues of outreach and look at issues of information sharing i think those to me were points all along this conversation we had today and know what as opposed to the implementation of the rule i think the issue today was how do you expedite how do you assure the resources and in the process of retrofitting how do you assure the resources so i want to thank you for that today and