certification me only be issued on a petition quote where there are no appropriateness or exclusion works whoosh and that's what we have the issues or any other issues necessitating a jury so it was required that we have a hearing because there are issues here both under the alternative as well as traditional managerial tasks but particularly the if you look at the statute itself it doesn't say formulating at all but i will and i will give to the supreme court here the authority to make independent decisions in the consequent alignment of the employee he represents management interest by taking or recommending discretionary actions that effectively control and here's the key word for implementing employer policies or implement conduct or i for all the cases you're hearing it will be ninety eight percent but it has a particular impact could because who is going to hear the cases who's going to hear the cases of state employees coming alleging that they've been discriminated against their decisions iow the decisions that they implement the policy all of the human rights commission and they they apply the young boy human right why i think this i think this court has the ability as supreme court did in state's attorney saying look we look at the statute we look at the regulations and we believe that these people are managerial yes as a matter of law i think it has that that power and that ability but we were denied a hearing in this manner and obviously that means that  you have not only the statutes and regulations but you have everybody's arguments including the attorney general's arguments i've seen which counsel so i mean the for for ashley you know everybody's been hearing under tradition i do think you should read the supreme court's one opportunity to help you it's to determine what's standard of review is and what should happen in cases where we're have now have been extended so now they have to formulate the policy but that's not the excess and that's not what our supreme court says but that's what the  and in each of the year you know supervise only one you know of the activity but you can never win because there's always this like a maze and you're always whether it's if it's  honour's mr weiner seems to be emphasizing the manager aerial as a matter of law test and that's a test that the supreme court stated in both the state's attorney case and the chief judge case involving public to pay defenders should be given a narrow interpretation he is asking for a very very broad interpretation o or the public defender and we're close with the flow with all hours and privileges of those offices we simply don't have that situation here in ministry to apply judges are not clothed with all the powers and privileges of the human rights commission their decisions may often end up being adopted but most of those decisions are subject to review by three member commission panels and sometimes by the commission itself and sometimes the three member panel choose not to follow those decisions so in this you have a commission is involved and that is reviewing determinations of the department of human rights to dismiss cases out of hand provocative substantial evidence to dismiss discrimination charges for lack of substantial evidence those decisions are reviewed by three member commission panels the a o l j s have no role at all so they make a but i believe that is still the state which a poll from the situation involving the state's attorneys where again the supreme court said they are close with alt powers and privileges of the state's attorney the state's attorney and public defender situations are very unique in most in many if not most instances the a o l j s cannot by themselves all instances when they went to court and the supreme court use the language closed with all powers and privileges and these sales j s simply are not close with that kind of authority so i think that we have to turn to the manager area as a matter of fact task and in connection i will just say one thing more on the alternate cost your honor your honor asked hope should this if we agree with the alternate task should it go back to the word if you're right or if you ruled that they were these were managerial as a matter of law that really takes the case away from the board in the state's attorney's case that was a case that was brought to prohibit the board from proceeding further in its hearing and the supreme court said yes it was proper to perhaps the board from proceeding further so if you do hold that there are managers as a matter of law that said we would have that would be nothing to the board in terms of the traditional pass under the board's rachel we hold the board should make that determination your you're right your honor that would be a possibility but it moved here into the traditional pass under the words regulations when this petition for representation was filed c m s was was to say they are involved in the decision making process of the human rights commission and certainly that's true certainly they  role that doesn't mean they're managing the human rights commission though what the board looks to and what this court has said the workshop look to is relate whether they are in in running the enterprise of one from the c m s case that mr weiner poder from is managerial employees are involved in the direction of a major governmental enterprise doctors do nothing to quote run their department to set the department's goals to establish and effectuate powers he's and procedures to determine powers wages and schedules or and i think that's where c m s they failed to ship to really submit any materials indicating that the a l j is have a role in running the department what they said what they student summit materials showing is that they have an important role but this court and the court in the county of cook case oh emphasise that's not enough you can have there are no managerial employees who have very vital functions and those vital functions  not make the many jerry all i could give examples the attending physicians in the county of the case are great example they treat patients that's what a county hospital is all about it's their most vital function and yet they are not managerial employees all are examples that i could give might be the correctional officers in prison facilities they perform one of officers and administrative hearing officers have been represented for collective bargaining purposes in this state in a number of agencies whether called her muff a series or charities in the past they've been representing federal agencies indeed the national labor relations i'm saying that there are employees being represented in pallets and there weren't cases finding employees there is was a department of revenue case where employees were found not to be  is different it depends upon the agency being worked for and the duties that there are so i think that's correct your honor i think it would depend on how the agency is set up and white duties are being performed and maybe players have people running an agency and and you have a commission you have judges mr budgetary cases and that's the function of that agency they're not making  doesn't mean that they're managing the agency the fact that they may write a legal decision which either frankly in the parties or because nobody sits review stands as the final administrative decision in that case these are public employees there throughout the night government there are lots and lots of people hearing it straight in cases that's a national attorney function that they carry out in council says that barge percentage of employees organized in the be over ninety percent just based upon my general awareness of that over ninety percent if not more of these decisions entered by the commission like that are either not accepted in alleging the state discriminated against you and they didn't follow the collective bargaining agreement that you are also subject to by the way i want to dispose of this professional argument because driver's license i mean i think they're referring to i think the supreme court is pretty much by two places as as being a higher level manager a real traditional