transmitting limitation and again i want to start with figure three in this is going to be page thirty eight in the st jude appendix it can i ask you to clarify something because your claim construction argument to me as between the two different breeds which both do address this establishing  has been i think a little bit of a moving target for me and i want to make sure i understand what your argument is or your stablish ing and in particular here's one thing i want you to look at because this kind of resonates with me but then i thought it wasn't and i thought you might actually prevail on me but it wasn't actually the way i thought that you explained your claim construction it was the way the read what you said so this is so i want to actually ask you to it's about after number three when these quotes come in about what the two different constructions appear to be and it says quote in advance and then that see that callous size of the entire communication cycle as st jude contended so they're saying everything has to go in advance of the whole communication cycle which trust me i get your argument about figure three completely and you have already alternatively argued something different which i like but it doesn't feel like what's in your blooper is necessarily it so i want to be sure but include what they think your argument is i'm sorry your honor could use to you identify the particular language your friends because i'm the part i like the president particularly that you're the perhaps where they were where you were you're asking if they've characterized age nine then when it says that was contended that part or in advance of the first interval within the cycle during which remote is allowed to transmit to the hub princess as atlas contended see why do i like that because i like that because it's not sort of willy nilly and it fits with figure three and it does all your battery saving that you want and i'm just trying to understand is that your construction as argued for on appeal as well they certainly seem to think so in the red brief but i kind of got a slightly different impression from the blueprint so you might be going for something a little different no your honor i think it that is if i had made that clear in the prior argument it's certainly w i intended to say it's like flipping on an awful light switch you do it when you want the lights to turn on you turn them off or the lights of a turn off but so let me let's do this with reference now to figure three so the in advance that the district court chose isn't really something we need to throw out the window it's just the further specificity of the words in advance that are what you're saying is wrong it is in advance of something that's right it's just not in advance of the whole cycle instead your argument would be it's in advance of the period that begins at eighty four right for the particular remote yes it's not now see now that's where you're losing me so the particular remote because here's the problem if you don't think this is why this is why i'm doing this because i was a little nervous you're going to say that because i think based on figure three that what is articulated in my understanding of this pattern is that everything with regard to each of the remote is transmitted at least by the period designated as eighty two interval is for one two three four up to twelve it doesn't know it can turn off during all that time do you follow when i can yes your so i kind of think everything has to be sent by the end of eighty two and i still think you win under that construction by the way so i'm just trying to understand whether or not that's fair or do you really are going to hold yourself to this each remote thing which means t x o p s thirteen might not have any clue when it supposed to turn on and off until it gets to twelve did you see my problem that doesn't realize any of the battery thing i do your honor that the only issue that i would raise again goes back to column twenty five in the end flag message which is the thing that tells the remote definitively when there's a new frame theoretically you wouldn't need that if all the information were conveyed to each remote prior to a really for so be no need for that so the remote theoretically already know definitively when frames were ending so that's my only each one of these intervals has friends and numbers of yes right so whining why would one i take it your suggestion is that the land at that says the packet is ending is sound and you get that at the end of the packet is somehow incans inconsistent with a requirement that the overall time slot in which the remote can transmit forty thousand frames to pick a number out of the half it doesn't have to know when that's coming to an end i don't understand why why that there should be that suggestion of an inconsistent because i think each of the friends including the last one in the particular interval would have the sending flag on it right but but but that the remote has a separate clock going that says i've got the following number of milliseconds or something that i can use and you know as many things i can get into that i still want to know when each frame ends but that's kind of an independent header from when my microphone goes off i take your point your honor that may very well be one thing that is very clear your honor is that our biggest problem with the district court's construction is when all this information is to be transmitted your argument i think that we all have it very well there's that figure is three you can think of into the cycle because this is the whole thing jude on this is that there was no indication below during oral argument which is really the first time any of this came up as to where the information is describing what information is transmitted i would refer the court to column thirteen and this is page eight fifty four of t starting at line twenty three the time for the overall communication cycle seventy along with the specific interval allocations within the cycle seventy are broadcast by the hub sixty four during the information interval seventy six and eighty two in the form of control information delivered in an information frame transmitted during the information interval seventy six so that so that very clearly explains what's going on at least in interval seventy six which is all this length information of the co transmitted in advance of the communication cycle is actually sent according to the preferred embodiment during interval seventy six which is the first interval of the communication cycle so i took it that the driving force behind the district court slot on this information they have and given the information before the cycle can you respond to that yes if we look at figures sixteen this tells you how the remotes actually scan different channels looking for activity this all is happening outside the communication cycle projected randoms point prayer on so this is how the remote in the first instance you there's activity going on and if we look down to element two sixty want to figure six sixteen  says wait to receive info frame so now it is ready to participate in a communication cycle but until that happens there isn't the communication cycle so the fact that the receivers may be on scanning the different channels for activity wouldn't be the all of the ramones are only in terms of their receivers at the start of every communication cycle before it starts before it starts so we have all of this going on up to wait to receive an fo club the remote can be listening like this for activity from the hub before each communication cycle and then when the communication cycle starts the hub would define when each device is talking to the other and therefore one the receivers and transmitters are on respective everybody she still stands on no i think given the teaching that i read earlier about the response that the that the remotes give to any frame from the hob there would have to at least an acknowledgement that would be returned from the renegotiation cycle then there must be at least one response from one of the remote we think yes we think the figure three makes it very clear and the teachings of the path that if there is to be a communication cycle covered by the claims there have to be two  communication there cannot be the hub just transmitting with nothing coming back that wouldn't in french and it doesn't anticipate so let me just see if i understand the syllabus or not in your view the communication cycles are not continuous in that the end of one is the same moment as the beginning of the next there's a gap and in that gap there can be information that allows the receiver to turn on and as you say scan for information from the hub is that yes your honor that's exactly correct and and is that what's going on in eighty eight hu do that the beacon frame does something else but according to the teachings of the fact that helps the hub resolve intentionally conflicting traffic with other communication groups so what we have going on here which isn't shown in figure three but is shown in figure was just talking i don't think there is a text associated with your sixteen specifically about the cycle not being continuous where if i look at figure three i think continue if we started counting forty nine thirty five and it sucks about the communicator scans all usable frequency channels listening for the presence of a hub by listening to each of the pre determined usable frequencies so if a communication cycle were continuous there never be the ability to add a remote because there wouldn't be the opportunity for the remotes to scan the channels waiting for an information fr that all has to happen before the transmission of the information frame otherwise remotes can join the group and we know from the teachings of the seven three forks out that that's possible hub establishes and which is repeated on a continuous basis as long as the hub is active it absolutely is continuous repeating cycles that is disclosed throughout the invention i see them as you said column columns snapshot every claim requires repeating communication cycles the only break the discloses that more to the hub beat in which does not happen every time it happens a preset intervals for example every five seconds an with what we're talking about today what has to do with a once the cycles have started what is going on in the information frame enjoyed more this goes to your question about what is what being going to be nice i should make a point here the previous appeal involved what was being transmitted from the disclosure of the what's being transmitted the body field one sixty four figures aid of the information frame containing all the information needed by the remote as shown in figure three that phone call twenty six at the the line six i don't understand your point you're going too fast and you need to apologize or not so interrupt me you're going to say that and you need to divorce from this argument anymore characterizations which are not welcome  the bottom that it goes on the body field of information frame concludes a number of different fields and here's the key point we go over to call twenty seven and there is then a list of fifteen things that the information frame says which is the information remotes ne i would like to focus your honour's on numbers four five and six which are clustered around the line ten of column twenty seven for the number of bt hives that stands for basic time increments which in this pat number of bt highs in the communication cycle after the next communication cycle so there we look back to figure three hours that information from seventy six is transmitting not only the duration of the current cycle but also the next two side which therefore gives the remote the starting time of those next two cycles that's the district board's claim construction that is clearly supported here in the specification this is confirmed many other places on continuing to come twenty seven at the bottom about one hundred fifty seven i think i guess i'm a know so part of my problem with the district court construction is that it says in advance of the communication cycle and it seems to me this information is being conveyed during the communication cycle at least the very first iteration of the communication cycle because it's been conveyed in period seventy six and in fact repeated in period eighty two under figure three so when the district court says in advance of the communication cycle that just feels too by an area and wrong to me you might be correct that information is communicated in advance of subsequent communication cycle columns thirty three and forty as having an entirely separate mechanism through the new entry remote the new entry device turns on of the years and look puts itself in listen r f stage to try to find the first cycle it is the cycles which are repeating throughout the to be when the hub either a first becomes active or b when new remotes enter and are looking to sync with the ha yes around in either case if that's not part of the communication cycle i still don't understand how the conveying of start and stop times in intervals and time slots isn't what's being done in the field seventy six i mean at least for figure three it seems to be disclosed that's what's being done until seventy six to figure three and that seems to me the clearly part of the communication cycle your honor this is where you're losing is it absolutely is being conveyed in information from seventy six thousand for the current cycle for the next cycle for that matter requires the remotes to power off their receivers that's the invention after all is that the the with the disclosure says of the prior art knew very well how to turn off transmitters but didn't know how to turn off receivers this invention is devoted to turning off the receivers so it some point during the cycle the receiver turns off to conserve power then the question is how does it know how to turn on again before the start of the next cycle and that's where the district court's construction says it has to know before the cycle starts because as i believe it was discussed this morning you know to have to have their years on they have to be listening they have to turn on at the start of the cycle but are you saying seventy six when the district court's construction which actually says information necessary to determine the starting time and duration has to be transmitted to wait just to be clear so do you think the way that this not technology operates i three cycles worth of start turn on and turn off for your receivers are sent at a time and the receiver will never turn on or turn off or change at all but rather that that initial information that sent control taken into account dynamically which is why the which is why it can work the way you're describing for cars for the certain climates right i'm not calling you i'm sorry i'm not following you and you're on i'm wrong i mean figure three actually says he's erode right at the top which i assume why else would you say time with an arrow in a big line less this is time zero beginning the communication cycle and then the arrow points to the information comes after g s e r o so so i just don't understand how that can be reconciled with the district court's construction in advance of the cycle let's let me try two different words but good and then one last question relevant to that when it said that eighty six t x o p request i understand this to be remote and their ability to send requests to the hub to participate in the next communication cycle like if they were a part of this one they can request to be in it which means up right time now to get a new player in the field we've got to expand our team that means everybody gets a slightly different time so this is an even figure three contemplates every single cycle to be a dynamic cycle because there's always in every cycle the opportunity for new entrants which could change the timing of everybody's future times while i agree with that charge more which is why it is absolutely critical that the remote turn on at the beginning of the next cycle of the second structured that weather is communicated as a clock time which is clean thirty four or duration of the current cycle and therefore because of the repeating cycle which is quite fourteen either way they have to know before they turn off when to turn on again they can be told as atlas of construction would have atlas would go to that time zero and then say hey remote to turn on i have some information to send you about this cycles they will get that because they're turned off what white light doesn't interim ation turn on your receiver so that without saying anything about cycles for the receiver will be on right to get the information when cycles fourteen start so  and eighty two in cycle thirteen say your receiver should come on at eleven o'clock in cycle thirteen and then it will be on at noon for cycle forty and it doesn't have to have any information about cycle fourteen judge drawn to that that is the disclosure of the four that is court's construction i thought that the district court's construction required that information about cycle fourteen be sent to the remote before cycle of information necessary to determine the start time which can either be clock time to start term on eleven o'clock black white will see that this is what what i guess from my the beginning of my thinking about this case has confused me it seems to me that if in cycle thirteen you say turn on and eleven o'clock yes you haven't said one word about when cycle fourteen starts we're not even presuming that it starts at before cycle fourteen starts of bounce cycle fourteen's start time and that seems to me not necessary as long as the receiver is on at the beginning of cycle fourteen but it doesn't have to know how to do that by reference to anything about the start time cycle forty so i agree with all of that i believe that would be the great destruction the reason for that by the way is in columns thirty five and thirty six at the bottom line sixty six on it is necessary to this pastor in describing by the way quote the present invention it is necessary for the remote to recognize when to expect the beginning of box three twelve the remotes have to power down until the next cycle and then back to ninety at the top they have to activate the receiver for the emperor frame they have to know when to do this and this records claim construction is saying is that before we get the box to ninety information have to be sent through most to tell them when to do that whether it's by clock time or by the duration of the previous cycle is irrelevant most of the disclosures go to describing the duration of the current cycle to establish the start time the next to call and twenty seven elsewhere but either way the remotes have to know how to turn on and the reason for that is if they are not told in advance of cycle fourteen in the board's example they will turn on and then the notebook w work because the whole battery saving feature on the receiver side has to turn off the receiver before they can turn off they have to know when to turn on again when to turn on again but it isn't bottom of twenty at the beginning and end in thirty five at the beginning of the next communication cycle that's required and so therefore they not must know before that point and it doesn't matter when but it's going to be communicated more than to come back to what we were discussing earlier it has to be communicated during a communication cycle because this patent only discloses repeating communication cycles with two exceptions which are relevant here the hub beacon and the active r f c so that all information is communicated during a communication cycle the only question is the summerfield and figure three atlases constructions as we understand it and as we described in that page of our grief is that the start time information can be put in anytime during the outbound fortune seventy two any time between twelve o'clock and seven o'clock if that is true with respect to the transmission intervals it is certainly the case that if the receivers are listening the hub can inform them about the transmission inbound portion it is not true with respect to the reception period which is what we're talking about here in the district court the pages a twenty three and a twenty four of the claim construction order separately construes the the information from the interval information and apple didn't appeal that construction so all the argument that the internal information has to be communicated before the cycle we haven't argued that the district court did require that what does have to be communicated before the cycle the start time of the next cycle so that the receivers know when to turn on otherwise this network would not work it would be inoperable it would not be useful it would be invalid all of these claims would fit certainly should not construe the patent in a way that would make the invention  as is is my understanding of it that on the levin says that the cycles are continuous figure sixteen has about a and a process that takes place before remote continuous id that after the beacon frame the information from were transmitted a new remote could never join there wouldn't be an opportunity to do that and we know from the teachings of the seven three forks out of the groups can change all the time pubs can be re off so if it's truly continuous in other words as soon as one ended another began no new remote could ever join and we know that is not the way this invention is supposed to work i want to go to the plain construction because i think it's been oversimplified by st jude but i heard st jude council say the only thing the district court required was that start time be communicated in advance if we look at page pay tax it's very clear what the district court was requiring was that the hub transmitted through the remote quote information necessary to know the starting time and duration of the communication cycle in advance of that communication cycle judge to ronald to your point that is not required to accomplish the goal of this invention and it out the preferred embodiment where the control information is sent after the communication cycle starts and that's the thing jude seems to ignore now if we go to colorado to make sure i understand the point you're making here the claim language says  and my understanding you to argue that the claim doesn't divorce that to the claim tell jesus transmission of information is relating to the cycle and the intervals and so basically it's all together lock stock and barrel information the duration has to be transmitted in advance so it isn't any wanker a simple capability of telling the remote's wake up now that information about the duration has to be communicated in addition that's the stuff that's in the information communicated after the communication cycle starts if we go to column twenty seven and we look at what c two points out is the various of components of the frame and  one of the things that is always communicated is a number of e t i in the present communication cycle notwithstanding whatever else may be communicated there and if we say well all these claims have to have that communication cycle into more that would be reading an the specification into the coins and if we look at the claims themselves and we look at claims thirty four fifty four starting around line twenty seven that specifically require the hub transmits information about the instant communication cycle and the next one in the same information frame so there are claims specifically directed to sending information about the communication cycle and the next one which claimed i'm sorry next subsequent second communication cycle and then finally your honour's if we look at claim fourteen forty nine that particular claim allows for the hub to transmit a frame quote containing information describing the length of the communication cycle prior to the end of the communication cycle whose line is established meaning that that claim allows for transmitting all the way up to the end of the communication cycle certainly not requirement to be transmitted