reasons that's correct so people with access just above the back roof is done of the new edition it's the old edition that's done and then we got around to this back portion of the building correct one of that side so the next facade is out front here they're downsizing their board on the homeowners association if they can do it for just the the sheer portion before the two roads breakoff so it will include conclude the call over maybe they can get closer to  hoped to you the goal is to have the application complete in time to try to come up on the agenda your second meeting in june and then the time to submit it for the stuff within the old town school house and with the damages caused by negligence of a belief covered that way and that's where the rental agreement will come in yes so that we give them a rental agreement basically they then cover their own hungry ok so even if they're doing something together they're they're not covered correct ok so each time they want to have something they'd be getting some sort of coverage yes getting something for the weekend something for the evening but ok whatever the duration of little weird in that our expenses went up four point three percent and revenues were up seven point three percent however we had done so substantially up to the compost fiasco that we encountered a few years ago program that we just won the contract for it so we're putting those people that we laid off back on again so pretty much tells you why the full time equivalents went up between composting in the paint with probably added three of the few point knowing that we are we really we took a hit we had you know those come a weird one because we had insurance in the hard part is we had insurance through it will we all probably are presumably insured a lot legal citizens tell us the real difficulty for us is we for no extra cost pretty important so what we've been doing for the last year is trying to figure out how we preserve the smaller and if i can be clear about one thing what is it gets perfectly the u constitution we can't three s the haulers market share plates it's just illegal because you're somewhat discriminating against somebody from out of from you know somebody from another area could say you discriminated against me in th points for that bid you know because you've done the one thing we're stewards that in the midst of investigating is how much can we decide in favor of the local haulers depending on how much investment they've of less choice we understand and it's not our choice we think each individual town i make up their their choices you know and they want to go with it and they can tell you from our study westford who has perhaps one of the more rural  areas of them up it's in their property tax there they hollow the they have recycling pickup every other week garbage picked up every week and their average rate is you know if you look at what they're paying their green and the system that i know that there it's not really a contract you know that you know we actually got rid of anything like that there's no pseudo there's no nothing it actually we'll put it up i mean i f it it kind of over the years grew and then by i think last year we decided at that point it was so pseudo as you can say in fairness to other haulers in fact other people want to be in there we didn't feel it was without going o tractor people you know they have stickers but they provide the stickers they put the stickers in the store and everything myself wells nothing is now so the town is completely out of the garbage business and by the time we got to it they really should have been  going to happen on earth known as they please when we start you know it's just it's all over the board and that's falling so who comes in and when you say well we will come in in the next fiscal year or the next twelve months  that's totally up to you you know what if you as a town do you want to do this we're actually working backwards from two thousand and twenty let me see if i can get this clear two thousand and twenty all again it's have to be earth is where we bring all curbside recyclable so in fact you can bring her little cardboard there never think of that facility is currently shut down for seven weeks as we invest nearly two million dollars in  fiftieth down to thirteen oh let me good cause what you're looking at is from there to propose budgets in actuality today in district is zero and district is ten what we're proposing is in district ten out of just industry six out of district eleven so the other districts are only going up one dollar in the industry is going up six the reason for that is we are contract to operate the earth is with just part of that contract we have negotiated that they bring in thirteen thousand tons a year from outside the district that substantially lowers everybody more volume to the same facility we get for better deal in part of that negotiation says we will be sure as much as we do somebody the facility is bought and paid for there's no oil see any bonds of the district  we may have set that is the only feet that the border gives the staff the ability to change let me give you an example i came to the district back in history ninety ninety five in june when i came here newspaper was selling for two hundred dollars a ton well it's the first the very next january six and a half months later we were painting fifteen dollars to get with the newspaper off mean it was a wild west commodity like it you were in i can't wait for more meetings i had to be able to in now it's march thirty here and i have no problem giving up the story so last year we predicted we would need over the whole intention of removing the financial requirement for the you know public recycling of the crop of centers was to encourage more and disc septic system davo that and we noted that the driveway was proposed to be fairly steep in some sections for instance a couple hundred feet of it here near the top of this narrow portion of the property is proposed to be at fifteen percent and then quite a lot of the rest of it twelve percent which finally gains access to the ovation  house rose house a i think the driveway standards for the town of underhill say that ten percent is the limit so that's one obvious departure  the policy calls for the use of the fabric or rotary fabric under the gravel design maybe the revised design does with the original i looked at did not include the part of the fabric  with four inches of plan next but in looking at the surface of the ground it seems to me that the beach that's in there may not be suitable for just topping off with four inches of land mix in other words it looks to be fairly organic a fair amount of topsoil visible on the surface and grass growing and i question whether just talking it with four inches of planting mix will make a good hard solid driveway that resists running and lighting in the spring maybe i'm there's quite a burma along there that's going to have to be leveled and flattened a bit in order to to make that suitable for a driveway and there are some huge boulders you have to be dealt with not necessarily big deal which is something that people should be to the east so it's an obvious thing to do but a culvert where the water now flows that makes sense one thing that occurred to me when i was walking here i think the original design call for this all logging road to be essentially done away with receded grid over it seemed to me that it would make more sense to try to preserve this driveway this is largely rooted rather essentially in its current form and live the uphill ditch of that logging road intercept as much water as possible and send it over here to the northern edge of one property to shore stream that runs down through there so what i thought was let's not have all this water that comes down the slo pass across the old and then the crossing into new driveway and end up on the her a lot of the name or all her let's try to capture it on the northwest side of that log and keep it on the law until it gets down to range and that to me would maybe more than offset the small amount of additional water that  current or into the north not to the south in the same way if there's a swell mind house which is often done to cap the bird water away from the backside of the foundation let's do bird tests we'll to the north not to the south means a lot of tree cutting and you know quite agree to dare it when you're finished that might be minimised by diverting the driveway slightly to the east and getting down below that  where at this point you will now be at a lower elevation and that means longer driveway to get back to the same point at the top so it's kind of a trade off  we're in the smoking in this will section here but then you have to create more of it when you're going to get to the same rate at the house so it's something to consider but i don't think it's anything i would say is make it flatter because you don't have any place to go once you get to that corner was twelve percent could be reduced probably to ten percent by staying low or stay low from here to house was five hundred fifty feet off that represents represents a certain elevation change to make that same elevation change for the same point to the same ending point at two percent require six hundred sixty feet so one hundred ten feet more drive to get there at ten percent but it's something that could be done worse the property line worse the range property line this original design i had looked at was put covert here where the water is currently following but if we can eliminate that culver and take this intercept over here of all evil water that's going to come through that spot is going to be significantly less which i think is what we're trying to accomplish or another osa now this one you're still going to be a ditch of sorts through the woods that natural drainage path through the currently coming down into this area now if you have to drive it still through here it's supposed to strive wit will divert that water around the outside it's still this time to the right is also wrapped your well is that part of that upper is an upper part of that water shape is the first well you see right so in that water we're talking about diverting to the north side of chris's property is also one two three four switchbacks there probably twelve to fifteen percent the photo of it oh yeah and under there's tires on these folks don't drive their cars up there they walk in the neighbors can not suffer due to water problems i mean do you do you see that as an engineer or do you see that being a teen able to build something that doesn't make their lot any wetter than it already is or even make can is there a chance we can make their lot drier the calculations and apparently the designers haven't either as far as before and after photos and all that but you know just walking and just looking at the drawing or the contours are where is the water you referred several times to a point on the driveway maybe halfway or so beyond which from there to the house is twelve percent of what's the number based on just a representation of the you know there was  you know this was from this profile is from the second from the second the latest one now from the second one that was in a new profile and assuming the contour lines are correct in their to five foot interval i found two sections beyond this profile where it runs fifteen percent and i didn't do the whole thing but just look for samples to sections where it's beyond fifty where is fifteen percent at least and a couple more sections which exceed twelve percent then probably if you were rounding it to be closer to fifteen than twelve what you're doing is measuring intervals between these lines in the driver location and machine a calculation well the thing at that doesn't do is take into account the cutting and the feeling as you proceed through other words there might be a flatter area a steeper area and by existing period at station sixteen hundred and the driveway can easily be constructed at twelve percent or less based on the existing controversy that means for major but right there no actual profile just just following the contours of wood where it winds up in the absence of a profile i see some steep pitch a school i'm not sure where you could approach this would be to take the existing grade sixteen hundred engineer refers to the requests the slug board apply the regulation reference state of vermont be seventy one right here in its entirety which includes an allowable fifteen percent or greater gradient i s the engineer said they'd be seventy one includes an allowable fifteen percent or greater gradient and i didn't see that anywhere and be seventy one it limits to no more than fifteen percent of the initial pitch coming off the town road after your first dip date of seven and then up to fifteen yeah that's right negative and then up to fifteen but no more than fifteen percent for that first would without getting into the average and from beginning elevation to the garage door  twelve percent over any fifty foot section obviously you do that everybody admits that exceed your plan exceeds that significantly why should we ignore all regulations law i think that i think the overall point is that we never want to go beyond the regulations in camp and that's what we tried to do is you know if we could build them present we would want to do that but i think you know what we put together is for your convenience and desire for the few who is the reason for abandoning our town bricks why wouldn't it apply to all kinds of people who have steeple and effectively obliterate  other than your desire to do it or that would make it different from anybody else with steep land too much trouble building a ten percent trifle well i think if they desired to build a drought where they would present plans i think they're if we allow descrive way wouldn't that make the property potential for development and division into loss because you have an approved grandfathered fifteen percent  well the do your be rules require that you get for anything in excess of ten percent our approval even if it's a subdivision of five or ten lots or something and then access per bit from us but if we had already given that to mr hunt off the top of that i don't see any reason why he couldn't then turn around because there's a lot of levels out i feel there i think the core of the driver policy versus if you're going to put another in terms of this up location you know if it's a existing you know a lot see the existing curb cuts that were there prior to the regulations those are exempt from the slope and so some of the other things yup but this this was i think the reason that you know no exception should be made because that's really about the murder serves that's what it comes down to and if it was about flooding or if it was about other issues i could definitely stand how that could impact othe people and cause issues but if it was just about a personal safety issue which is this where this driveway is going to be like the nicest driveway town you know every two regs every little bit except for that one piece which is about the numbers and services analysis the whole time as it really is just that one issue that he didn't think it was going to be this difficult the neighbors were going to you know have such a problem that it was going to you know turn into lots of the pieces but that it was really just so you're sure that exceptions have been made you look next door i'm sure some people live you know you throw stones to jericho where this was not the vision to be nothing wrong with it they were proof hundred percent but we're not sure i understand it but when you look at president the looks of other people are doing around you you know they allow it similar slansky it's a similar you know it's pretty serious fire and ambulance services serve it too and when it's a lot in one place and you know the foreign parts dealing with it i mean that's where the fire department do the best they can whatever they're chance the fire department can't get up there that should be your problem but you're also assuming the risk for your guests for visitors you're soon the risk for future part of the column though with this system in place is that water falls on to the state's regulation where this driveway falls on to us yeah and so unfortunately there are shallow wells that are in danger or the one in danger of this whole are not create change at this time for this town in the road policy because that's what i feel my vote would be doing to be going with a fifteen twelve fifteen percent grade and i i think if that's something that needs to be done it should go to the voters it should be put into regulation changes need to be made to the regulations and i don't feel like at this time waiting for you know i die i feel for your situation i truly do you own to be silly and you want to access your land and i would not want to be in your shoes it is a hard spot for you to be in so i feel for you i truly deal but i don't want to be that person up here making the decision for the town about fifteen percent grade driveway so that's where i'm just to be clear with you that's where my decision comes and it does not come thirty year and i have been tried to play by the rules as much as possible when going back to those rules going to lawyers going to the ranks and making sure that i'm playing by those rules and not up here doing waivers and doing other things like that i don't want to take that responsibility of the cycle feel that that's my job here my job is to enforce the already in place regulations of our town and so that's what makes me make that decision tonight so so would you say that right in most other places i've done things access from this like already given to a certain distance and that's it and then development the parcel happens with his own administration or the development  access off the road for a certain distance you also need a waiver from most hopeless you are to be of the driveway right i don't believe i do for you i have it even agreement with the neighbor that allows me to construct put some prep work in he had originally was looking out to access further from the property line but that would have involved relocating the streams was covert so they talked about putting it up in this area basically hesitant to begin because the driveway thing falls on us i don't want this access permit to look like i gave approval for a driveway that i don't know what it looks like or any word about it so that's why we had crossed out this section on his little sketch because he said boy you can't do it  same possible and so i said well then call it actual driveway location well are arranged go into the engineers drawing station sections every fifty feet profiles all that and we have a reg on that front driveway  ready something of that you know we smile on it and she's good and do your stuff there was a covert and saw i'd like to be able to complete this area here now hundred ten feet can we just prove it to the two fifty for the single family home and then with a vase and it says i have to come back in and give and give complete designs to get to the house location that meet the standard ok recent grab of thinking is what they also showed us that they have to cut to me ten so i do think it lies on the what the land makes you requires to the african to show to them to make the board comfortable if this were flattened right i wouldn't expect much more than the other it's going to go here and yes inclusive there's no news no regulation saying that he needs to be and did something that placement at a later date and time i don't want to come back to say can i access at this point in time for a single family and do it all with friends and exactly where does it say in this permit application doesn't sit in a permanent k so i just want to be sure before i complete that to meet the seventy one standards to access the sugar house that at some point in time i'm going to be able to use it for this house because otherwise we're going to give you  driveway design in order to prove approve this driveway which we're doing do we need more engineering than what we have right here we read cliff i've certainly seen more engineering for other things we've looked at but they have been more complicated  it seems a straightforward driveway i mean they call have to spend i don't know what a driver cost engineer but work to do that it's the most basic driver you are seen and you know the when my place was created in eighty or eighty one but lived and used to live up there before the time of any of us that's rock as to the driveway i was going to be structuring where the cuts were and so forth i just am having a lot of trouble on the surface saying ok if it's only two hundred fifty feet it looks good we don't need to know more and i don't want you to have to go to a lot of expense getting this thing engineered now if you're not going to move in for ten years  i don't see the problem i guess with something that just gets you to the edge of your permit and then you can do what you just apart from stand on the believin look at this one no no it's not boy below ten percent i mean to my standard i tend to lean on brain a little bit he is the most experience out of all of us but that you mean maybe things to mine not necessarily any details of any profiles like you do if you're constructing a road or if you're asking for some sort of waiver like the previous guy too it might as we'll and we have some people in grey area who demonstrating that they existing grade was and existing grade but a lot of ten percent so it wasn't i wasn't asking for anything out of the ordinary i gave a location i said i'd comply with the seventy one standards one of the problems i have is with the timeline i've been more than patient and i think that if you're putting it off another two weeks it's just putting it off and putting it off and putting it off in the south location came on to over three months ago am working comply with this leave regulations with regard to section forty four twelve and twenty eight i've been more than fair and asking for this and i don't understand why it needs to be dragged out any longer but we need every two weeks we want to do our due diligence this is the this is unfortunately and i understand your frustration with time but this is really the first time that we're looking at as a select work through this does fall on our three shoulders a lot of anybody else in this room that we have to make sure we're doing the right thing just like the witness in this last one before you and if we're careful it takes time i apologize for that but we can't change that course of time and i know we'll have an answer for you in two weeks if not ever just kicking the can for two weeks cliff spends a lot of time down here he's going to look into it a legal point of view and make sure we're doing the right thing here and we'll have an answer for in two weeks with nothing what we can do about that but that's a decision to make it's two weeks and let me say i am sorry  then they come out on the seventh themselves ok so with the two fifty if it's looking for a special resolution consensus and i would also like to know if you would authorize need to use  is there's evidence of erosion on their property probably the worst they've done some fixes and the worst thing that looks like it may be headed towards their septic system but looking at another need to do another fix before that happens so they're looking around the question was hey can you keep more of the water on the other side of the road a reasonable question but it's a let me estimated that out as roughly a thirty two because we're all suffering from these storms this is not a town issue i hate to say it this way but it's not tarnishing its i've done three culprits of my road last two years so you didn't see the community and you know the park and in particular i think i have a unique signature super unique first you know a good set of skills a tribute from the ministry of standpoint which you know obviously is important but you know consider your job very important brief given the age for ninety seven is the name of the bill passed by both the house and the senate and sent to the governor there's a reason to think he's not going to sign it he may have already at this point the legislature has trouble keeping his website up to date but a lot to do here a couple of things a meeting has always been defined as any time a quorum two of us get together and discussed business or take action do or as important see it in the some people or the impression that if you don't take action then you can go ahead and talk among yourselves there's never been a deal c t position never been the secretary of state's position and never been my other hat the vermont school board association's position but they have reinforced that to say specifically you're not in trouble with written correspondence or electronic communication including email telephone or teleconferencing between members of the public body for purposes of scheduling a meeting organizing agenda or distributing materials to discuss the meeting those three things you can get away with meeting is a quorum that crosses meeting shall not mean written correspondence or electronic communication putting a real telephone or teleconferencing between members of a public body for the purpose of scheduling a meeting organizing an agenda or distributing materials to discuss at a meeting what if seven i run into each other at the hardware store and we're discussing a quarter twenty volt is act public meeting now because if you're not discussing anything to do with underhill nothing to do with time business so as long as the three of us run into each other all three of us get together sometime we don't talk about underhill at all no we're not breaking any law all we're talking about those is by the next beer or five what about saying hey charlie bought a piece of land is that if it's not for the slick borders town business and not likely to come before the select board on the other hand if you hear that  been the law and i have not changed it by saying routine david the administrative matters that do not require action by the public body may be conducted outside a duly warn meeting provided that no money is appropriated expenditure and cumbered the directly conflicts with saying you can't discuss business or take action and it also directly conflicts with day to day administrative matters which may be broader than scheduled meeting organizing an agenda or distributing materials ok so now the there's an easy resolution under general standards of construing legislation as i understand them which is that the specific item controls the general item so when they generally say did a administrative matters but specify scheduling organizing and shipping materials that's what they mean is by administrative matters as scheduling organizing distributing materials  now the other problem though is that a meeting is any two of us for the purpose of discussing the business of the select board and then they say routine administrative matters may be conducted outside or duly one meeting provided that no money is appropriated i think the resolution to that again is they've said we can talk about scheduling organizing  what there has been generally here a move away from one provision which will affect brian all of us about giving notice which used to be have to give notice to the editor publisher news director of the media blah blah  that say any person who wants it gets notice if you're good and if you're going to post your agenda or warnings of a special meeting or regular meeting week the slick would have to designate where those are going to get posted about details of any patients on and electronic recordings of all meetings they have then put in place i won't go through them in detail can't be a one way speaker phone you know a new to the said and it doesn't work good but they do have those rules now so if somebody is on vacation you know a truck fishing in montana and there's a big guy that we have to deal with look at the budget passed the phone and come stick another timing issue which affects bryan more than anybody else it is and all the people with boards and commissions the agenda has to be up on the website designated public areas as well as the website now they tightened up the executive sessions again this is effective july one magic words you have to use for some executive session stuff you have to make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge would clearly place the public body or the person involved at a substantial disadvantage you have to read those magic words into the record or the words probably marcum down somewhere and you have everything is a secular session they have asked for an executive session consider a contract based on a specific and ask the board to make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge or clearly placed this body or a person of all that a substantial disadvantage that you go into  maybe a party have to make a finding that is probable and thank goodness this is an addition they made back when i was a state government i lobbied sarah lunde in the governor's consul to do this confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing legal services to the body believe it or not there was no provision for an executive session to talk to your lawyer which was madness just madness that's the end of the magic word section  but notice that the confidential attorney client communication has to be based on a finding that in my printed to suss if were known prematurely as opposed to the trick like communications known after the fact all of this gets into real problems because the rules of ethics say they're confidential a lawyer has to keep confidences anyway final decisions to hire or points are made in open  meetings violations and action may be instituted and if you lose in superior court this is all that you lose a superior court you're responsible for the attorney's fees and costs on what would be that it might well image only get out except that there has always been and they've extended it a little bit a person who's a member of a public body who knowingly and intentionally violates the subchapter shall be guilty of a misdemeanor how do you feel about having a record and shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars they have extended that to a person who knowingly and intentionally violates the open meeting law on behalf of or at the behest of the public buddy ryan i'm looking to you told me guilty of a misdemeanor i don't know of any criminal prosecutions done under there have been actions brought because of misdemeanor on the record the safety valve is the person bringing it including the attorney general of the general train general brings it shall provide the public body written notice and request a specific cure and if in fact we curate the violation the public body will not be liable for attorney's fees and education costs which can include depositions expert witnesses and others what if in fact the cures that according to this we have to respond publicly within seven business states by either stating an intent to cure within fourteen calendar days or saying we didn't violate any law pound sa if we don't respond it's considered a denial in which case no cure we go to trial so we have fourteen days to cure the violation either by ratifying the other action or declaring it as void and then adopting specific measures preventing any future violations so it is not just a free ticket saying all along we ratify are ok no because you got to ratify it and then you have to adopt rules saying which make sure you never do it again then the attorney general will bring an action against you when your statute of the patients on  and the plaintiff doesn't have to win everything just substantial when there's another safety valve the court could find that we acted in good faith  connection with comcast on top of that i just can't get into town emails i would have mowed the lawn and came back and i was still getting still trying now i think it's fair point who has done this the role this is last week these are guys trying to find to discuss painting or probable litigation and that is part of a motion go into executive session to be considered a specific finding that premature general public knowledge or peer replace this body a