national forum for housing trust fund in the treasury of the united states to provide for the construction rehabilitation and preservation of these and same kind of portable housing for low income famil chart twenty eight ninety five the committee on financial services with instructions to report the same back to the house promptly with the following amendments gentleman from colorado is recognized for five minutes without question is we've heard here today there is a need in this country for affordable housing particularly for the gentle lady despite the reading of the bill  the gentleman from colorado is recognized for five minutes without question as we've heard in this chamber today there is a need in this country for affordable housing particularly the for the elderly and the disabled but when government finance low income housing is occupied by able bodied above adults who have chosen not to work they are displacing these very people that are the most needy the elderly the disabled and in one thousand nine hundred six congress and president clinton agreed that able bodied adults ought to be required to work if they're going to receive government welfare and today the proposal that i'm putting forward to him in this bill is to extend this same commonsense requirement to the new housing finance by this bill i just want to make it very clear van and speakers that this proposal does not apply to the elderly or the disabled or single parents of children under six years of age who are unable to find appropriate and affordable child care in addition to many others but i think that we can realize that if you're able bodied capable of working or even applying for a job in america in colorado but if you're able bodied capable of working or even applying for a job in american taxpayers expect that in exchange for this taxpayer financed thousand you will commit to at least twenty hours of work activities per month that's minimal part time work and work activities can include job training community service programs and even providing childcare the work activities requirement is taken from the current standard or the federal welfare reform program i fully expect that the most able bodied adults who occupied housing finance by this bill will already meet the standards laid out in my amendment this amendment simply guarantees that taxpayer financed housing isn't going to turn into free housing for able bodied adults who are unwilling to work or contribute to society i believe that we should be in the business of providing low americans who are struggling for stability with a hand up not a handout if you were part of the bipartisan coalition who supported including work requirements in welfare reform then i strongly urge you to support this proposal as well i yield back madam speaker gentleman yield back in time for what purpose is the gentleman from massachusetts trying to try to save the bill from this effort to kill it it's a gentleman a person imagine the gentleman is recognized for five minutes for if this were a serious effort to put on a work program it might have been offered as an amendment to the bill wasn't offered before the rules committee secondly it would have said report back forthwith and it would have been voted on and it would have been added it says probably now it is true that if we were to adopt a resolution an amendment here that said promptly it would go back to the committee our committee is a fairly busy one we have the subprime issue before us we have credit card reform if you house floor time is fairly busy i am told that there are members who don't think working here on friday is the best thing that ever happened to them we are getting towards the end of the session we have the appropriations bills so the choice of font three resident forthwith is clearly motivated by an animus against the bill having failed in several tries to kill the bill as a whole they now say got to do with this way and on its own merits here's the problem i have not been in support of the work requirement within the public housing area but at least in public housing you have an administrative framework where it can be applied all i think inappropriately here we are talking about a program whereby the federal funds will be distributed and by the way they're not mostly taxpayer dollars the shareholders of fannie mae and freddie mac dollars in the largest amount but what we're going to do is to distribute this money to hundreds of local housing funds state and local housing funds and you talk about unfunded mandate this says to all of the grantees the catholic church in some places or but a both housing or other local housing groups habitat for humanity or any of the others you mu addition to building the housing undertake to administer this kind of volunteer work program and lest anyone think that this is something they can do easily read on the third page of the  motion administration a grantee providing assistance with trust fund grant amount may administer the work activities requirement under this subsection directly to a resident organization or through a contractor having experience in administering work activities programs within the jurisdiction of the grantee this takes some of the limited amount of money that would be available for housing and creates another new set of contractors maybe blackwater all night down the guns and come over here now when i get run out of iraq and so our whole new set of contractors will be dealing with this and the organizations that get this money they are religious organizations they are non profits they are home builders they will now have this new mandate to go and make people work and it becomes a complicated one here's what it says for example if you are the primary caretaker if you are single your parent for a child who is not attain six years of age then you have to go out and do this volunteer work for twenty hours a week unless you can show that you couldn't get childcare you've got to show that unavailable there are three different kinds of paragraphs it's a very complicated thing to administer and so you say to people you know what thank you for helping build affordable housing thank you to the archdiocese thank you to b'nai b'rith to the methodist thank you to habitat for humanity thank you to these charitable groups owned by the way you are now in charge of making the parents of small children go to work unless they are free shown to you the un availability of child care and you have to go out and hire somebody to administer this for you so other filibusters kill it this is a very difficult program to administer it is not one for which there has been any demand i guarantee you will be it will be strongly opposed by all of the organizations the charitable a nonprofit organizations that will be told to administer this housing it is an unfair imposition and some of the best motivated organizations of people it doesn't give them any money to do it it gives in this very difficult task it delays the bil a speaker is it not true that if indeed this motion passed that this bill could be reported back to the committee or committees to which it has been designated and that it could be reported back to the whole house tomorrow of a motion to recommit with instructions to report back forthwith a motion to recommit not forthwith instructions would not occasion an immediate report to the floor at the chair put it on a cited occasion at such at some such subsequent time the committee could meet and report the bill back to the house but the chair cannot say what in the rules of the committee my constrain the timing of the action it might take neither can the chair render an advisory pending whether points of order available under the rules of the days before there can be a mark up in committe rule twenty the chair will reduce to five minutes the minimum time frame a chronic vote on a question of passage to say fifteen minute and the last bit of debate and votes on a bill that would create a national fordable housing trust fund this is a motion to recommit offered by republican representative marilyn musgrave of colorado a last chance to change the bill before the vote on final passage dimmock democrats arguing the changes offered in a motion and a reference to the the word promptly in the motion would effectively kill the bill this is a fifteen minute vote and if it fails they will move on to a vote on final passage and during this vote we're going to bring you a pentagon news briefing from earlier today undersecretary of defense david chu for personnel and readiness held a briefing looking at recruitment and retention in the well thank you for joining us this morning and give all our briefers an opportunity to get in to the room and with him he has several of his colleagues from the military departments to talk specifically about their efforts but he's going to start off and kind of give you an overview and then take some questions along with his colleagues september thirtieth i am joined this morning by colleagues in alphabetical order john bostic who commands the army recruiting command admiral kilkenny who commands the navy recruiting for me and don't try and who commands the marine corps effort and general watching over commands the air force recruiting effort and they'll help me answer all your more difficult questions i do want to start with a few words that i hope would put these numbers into context and then very briefly summarize the results i believe you do have the press release that we have offered that gives that summary it is useful to to stress that recruiting and retention results are in the end a means not an objective by themselves they a means to be sure that we have the right number and types of people to staff the military enterprise of the united states of america and that strength and strength so to speak as a target itself is a means to what military capabilities can field and do we have the right people in terms of their qualities their motivation their ability to perform to ensure that the equipment that we are the performs as a country expected today of course we have two military services the army and the marine corps that are growing and we have two military services the name in the air force that have sh k their active duty and strength as they make room for the new capabilities for the investment and that's necessary to acquire those capabilities for the future this was a successful recruiting retention year for all fo military services on the recruiting front as you know from the press release all four active services made their numerical calls and with one exception they all made their quality goals i want to speak to those quality standards very aim to have less than four percent score in mental category four between the tenth and the thirty percent are all on that same examination in other words we aim for the military to draw an above average slice of america into its enlisted ranks as setting aside their officers for whom we set even higher standards and who comprise about one eighth of our total strength and we made those standards in all four series with one exception the army active army did not meet the high school diploma standards it recruited in terms of non prior service mostly seventy nine percent with high school diplomas approximately the national average and obviously we'd like to do just a bit better but we're proud of the record overall and it means that apartment as a whole meant that mark and i just like to put that record in historical context i have a poster boy to my right now i think they can dispose of the screens where the apartment has been on these indicators over the years the years as of late actually as the late one nine hundred seventy s or early ninety's we did not always meet these kinds of standards so i think it is a proud record i do think it's important to to achieve these goals because they do help explain why our forces performed so well we had similar good excess in the reserve components four of the six reserve comments made their numerical goals the army national guard army reserve both came close your army national guard stood at ninety five better united states army reserve made eighty six percent and four of the six made the armed forces qualification test goal sixty percent or better of the two exceptions army national guard you know summers are came in a thirty seven percent still above average but not quite as much above average as we would like all reserve components met the four percent max goal in terms of mental category four on the retention front equally are proud of the record again this year thanks volumes about the patriotism dedication and willing to sacrifice of young americans today all for active service is met there are good retention goals and the res all six reserve comments well within that ceiling through august and therefore i expect them to show the same result for the end of the fiscal year the army national guard i think is particularly sick important success story the army national guard is at its historic high in terms of high school issues some of the military people we've spoken to in the army including cheryl casey say that they're a little concerned about some of the signals they see that the family may not be as supportive issues that they raise but we think that the the ultimate goal the ultimate measure here is well do our people stay with us yes it is a straight there's no way around yes it is a sacrifice i think we need to them i'd say the key indicator is retention and as we look at retention that's a key indicator whether that the families are continuing to support their soldiers and as they go through multiple deployments and right now we're seeing the retention is quite good over one hundred percent in all the companies the army but we're watching it closely where we're concerned is on on the quality of life and i think if you look at what our secretary the army chief of staff the army and in the entire army is focused on in terms of improving the quality of life the housing the opportunities and in education in high schools and in at the junior levels for their children the opportunities on installations and to live a good quality of life that's making a difference a lot of money has gone into that lot of leadership and energy and we believe that that will make a difference sorry if i could just follow up we're now into the seventh year or so what has taken the army in particular so long to recognize the issue this is not a new agenda you see it in our efforts to ensure that military children even if they are not legal residents of the state in which their parents finding themselves station can enjoy in state tuition rates at state universities they'll have  majority dollar we started majority of states united states afford that benefit to military children even if the parents them of why provide a child continues in that educational institution that's a major question i asked earlier about how do these attitudes affect recruiting in force report has come down over the last four or five years from where it was earlier in this decade it did stabilize this last year so that is encouraging i think it's important for all citizens to support the choices of young people and this is one of the ironies we're seeing in this in this extended their conflict with the young people are willing to step forward more senior members of our society not to read every generation are less willing to applaud that choice when they do so and that presents my colleagues here i think with a major challenge as they go forward but the good news is it did stabilize at least question was asked of course the same way since roughly two thousand three asked of that way the answers are about the same this last year this last summer's results from the prior service was so the army apparently is going to be accelerating expansion by two years and i'm interested in knowing how they're going to do that how you know how many people are is he i'm going to have to recruit a year in order them to tackle and the other thing is i was curious because just a week ago there were talking about expanding at an accelerating it by one year so i'm wondering what what's happened in the intervening week i'm not sure i know the genesis of the one year  second army's poso to accelerate that goal to two thousand and ten to that's the two year acceleration that you mentioned and strength is a product of three major factors recruiting which we've emphasized this morning retention which  medical maybe personal hardship maybe unsuitability military service and so forth and the army in those areas have succeeded reducing attrition to the last several years or all three of those contribute to can we get two hundred forty seven for by the school year two identified if they do better on retention and do better on attrition then they need fewer recruits it will be a simple answer to at least the eighty thousand you're quoted this year probably somewhat more but exactly how many more depends on the possible out of the year with a given mission and over the course of the year the mission was increased general time every time that mission has increased that is the mission and so therefore when people say did you make your mission how much above your life and service of someone who is a friend to many in this chamber my predecessor george sang mister george sang meister served in this body for six years representing the district i currently represent the eleventh congressional district which was previously numbered as the fourth district of illinois george sang maestro was born in frankfort delano i seventy six years ago it tended joint junior college before entering the military and serving in the korean war after returning to private life he attended elmer's college and  law degree from john marshall law school george george sighing my stratus a distinguished career thirty four years of public service began as practice in private law before becoming a magistrate and justice of the peace for will county one hundred sixty one hundred sixty four became will county state's attorney nine hundred seventy two george saying meister was elected as a democrat the only house of representatives nine hundred seventy six after two terms in the state house he was elected to the state senate george saying master became a respected illinois madam speaker i ask our colleagues to join us in a moment of silence for our former colleague to recommit fall short so the house moves on to the vote on final passage on a bill that would create a national affordable housing trust fund the legislation would require that seventy five percent of the funds be used on housing for very low income residents those making less than thirty percent of an area's median income it is a five minute vote still to come a bill that would repeal the i r s authority to use private debt collectors in collecting back or delinquent taxes what's that bill all about well here's a capitol hill reporter who's been covering the debate on the phone with us have the rothman of b n a news why did democrats want to end the i r s practice of outsourcing private debt collection what you're seeing during this debate is really a question of who democrats versus republicans think are better suited to collect certain taxes that are owed to the federal government other government employees which is the side the democrats are taking or private contractors which is the saw the republicans are taking well why do supporters and i want to continue let the iris continue this practice is hiring private companies like this back in two thousand and four there was a tax bill and it allowed it included a provision to allow the i supplement their own agents and use these private collection agencies to keep after delinquent taxpayers there's a taxpayers who admit they owe money but need a little push from the government republicans would like to continue this program because the i r s has testified before congress that you know given budgetary constraints if they didn't have these outside resort these outside agencies to go through the i r s would simply put their resources elsewhere republicans say this is really helping in the effort to reduce the annual tax gap to somewhere around three hundred forty five billion dollars so the use of the annual tax scams three hundred forty five billion dollars what about this program itself getting private companies to do this how much does this generate for the treasury well that's interesting the program i have some recent figures here the program is estimated to bring in two point two billion dollars over its first ten years the idea rested estimated that in fiscal year two thousand and seven the agency would collect forty five point seven million to sixty five million dollars but that's a growth figure some one of the problems democrats have with these contracts is that the contractors are allowed to keep between twenty one and twenty four percent of the revenue that they bring in so they're essentially collecting a bonus for bringing in these these revenues to the treasury has the i r s said if this function goes away if this bill isn't acted no one the unable to do this can the i r s take over this function again well they've testified that essentially it would get sort of pushed aside because they're such they're under such tight budgetary constraints now and they have so many competing interests that you know they would have to put those resources elsewhere what about the bush administration they issued a position on the  they say they issued a pretty stern veto warning the house has tried to do this repeatedly over the past couple of years typically on appropriations bills they've tried to get rid of this program but this year they they ran into a problem on the floor with the appropriations bill because of jurisdiction issues and had to strike it and so which is why this is a bill coming out of the ways and means committee the administration has said that if this got to their the president's desk that he would veto this measure have the supporters of the bill responded to how they would pay for any revenue that's lost from this bill they have the bill itself would cost about one point one six billion dollars over ten years and under congressional pay as you go rules the bill has to be revenue neutral so they've come up with four ways of off that in that there's a provision to mediately tax expatriating individuals that would raise about seven hundred sixty four million dollars over ten years there is a provision that would increase penalties on the form ten ninety nine information returns there's something related to tax the fission sees where the i r s is not notified a taxpayer and then they put in a provision that you see in a lot of tax bills where they increase estimated corporate tax payments for two thousand and twelve as a final off that one sounds like from your reporting lines are pretty clearly drawn here in the house what about the senate what are sentiments there for passing one passing a similar bill i think if this can get through the house and it likely will on a almost strictly bipartisan vote you won't see it go anywhere else this year finance committee chairman baucus has kind of been quiet on the issue but to his partner ranking member is a supporter of the program and he's come out and earlier this year when the measure was before the house in the original appropriations bill he sent a letter through with colleagues asking them to you know keep this keep this program going because it does help the facts gap typically the finance committee mentioned is a program under which private companies could contact delinquent tax payers and getting them to pay back taxes it's a subject of the bill on the house floor today we've been talking about it with heather rothman of b n a news thanks for joining us thank you rothman called us after that interview to let us know so that she she misspoke she meant to say that she thinks the final tally will be strictly partisan not bipartisan as she had said again we have an hour of general debate on the bill coming up creating or allowing the i r s to to repeal the i r s authority to use private debt collectors this is the vote on final passage on a bill creating a national affordable housing trust fund and just a few members left to vote want to give us schedule reminder for some politics this evening on c span two coming up nine o'clock tonight and jobbers will of the washington the business week correspondent in washington will talk about g o p candidates and their position on the economy and taxes you can call in with your questions tonight at nine on c span two following that at nine forty five we'll hear from democratic candidate former senator john edwards campaigning in new hampshire at a town hall meeting and republican candidate senator john mccain both of those beginning at nine forty five on c span t are two sixty four the nasal one forty eight the bill is passed without objection a motion to reconsider is laid upon the table corrections in spelling punctuation section numbering and cross referencing and the insertion of appropriate headings without  pursuant to house resolution seven nineteen the amendment in the nature of a substitute printed in the bill modified by the member and printed in house report one tenth as three sixty eight is adopted in the bill as amended is considered read the gentleman from new york mr rise in strong support of h r thirty fifty six the tax collection responsibility act of two thousand and seven the bill has seven provision and is revenue neutral this excursion into private companies collect in the debt for the internal revenue service we've had many hearings and the internal revenue service of more than one occasion had indicated that given the resources they could a more effective job than having the subcontract subcontracted out to private firms there's nothing magic about privatization just saying that it's privatized doesn't mean that a small effect of that you're doing the right thing and i think in this great country of ours there is a special relationship between the internal revenue service and the  taxpayer no one would ever like a tax collector but you do feel a little more secure when you know that a public servant is doing his or her job rather than this job being sold out  given out the somebody that's income is going to be based on how much taxes they collect today no if you got to call the office a nasa taxpayer to pay or call his home let it not be a ride but night firm that is just getting involved in tax collection of federal indebtedness let it be someone that you can trust let it be a civil servant and let it been the people that over the years have done a job and no good reason they have been give by anybody as to why they should not continue to do this the only sad thing that you can say about the collection of taxes by the i we never gave them the money we never gave them the resources but no one can challenge that there's no one better trained to do the job than the internal revenue service and then of course i want to thank represent me can represent of her ego providing leadership in repealing this provision that would address the three percent withholding rate and certain government payments for goods and service it didn't look good then it does look good now the bill also provides some equity to our citizens in the virgin islands to ensure fairness and tax collection there and eliminates the the restrictions on the statue of liberty satchel limitations rather which means that there is that your limitation is out statute limitation that we all said this in this together and then that second class in this in addition of course we say gentleman's recognized i'm pleased that the chairman and i have forged a good working relationship that relationship has allowed us to work together on several important issues including trade and some tax bills just last week example i stood on the floor and joined with a vast majority of members on both to the aisle to approve a bill helping relieve homeowners of the tax burden that comes with having a mortgage written down or foreclose but the chairman and i know that there are times when we will not agree and today is just such an occasion the central feature of this bill is a repeal of a program at the internal revenue service that allows a service to contract with private collection agencies known as p c a's to secure payment of unpaid taxes from individuals who have admitted they owe the government money but simply have not actually paid the money it's true as the majority likes to argue that the i r s is on taxpayer advocate has urged congress to repeal the p c a program but some of her reasons are a bit suspect for example her report criticized the use of probably collection agencies because by doing so quote the i r s has separated taxpayers from its world class customer service and quote and while i agree that iris employees are competent hardworking public servants and i commend them for the job they do surely the person who wrote that did so with tongue firmly planted in cheek after all how many of us in conversations with our constituents have heard from them that the i r s is known for their customer service more importantly though i r  reviews of the p c a program show that customer service satisfaction with those p c a programs is in fact very high and their comments on the tax payer advocates report the i r s noted that quote of the nearly nineteen thousand cases assigned to p c a's only one hundred eight taxpayers ever quest or that they are accounts be handled by the i r s there have been thirty one reported contractual complaints all of which have been reviewed and dept there have been no instances of fraud or misuse of taxpayer information and quote that wreck is not surprising considering the extensive training p c a employees receive and the limited information they are provided that i should point out stands in sharp contrast the many documented lapses of the i r s in protecting confidential taxpayer information program opponents often suggest that there is something intrinsic about tax collection that should preclude it being contracted out to the private sector but this argument is hard to reconcile with a few basic facts first the p c s are not adjudicating tax liability they are merely helping to ensure the government receives the amounts the individuals have already admitted they owe in taxes but have not paid thousand and five alone third of the forty three states with the personal income tax the vast majority of those used private agencies to help collect from delinquent tax payers are hearing on this issue show the members of the committee the skill and patience p c a employees used to avoid disclosing any confidential taxpayer information in fact mr speaker i would urge the p c a program be modified to provide these contractors with additional tools that will both improve their recovery rate and reduce the possibility of taxpayer confusion about the purpose of calls and letters from the p c days even though these agencies lack many of the tools of the i r s such as lane and levy they are successfully collecting millions of dollars in unpaid taxes at the s has not and very likely would not ever get around to collecting the majority will no doubt argue that the cost to the taxpayers would be even less if the i r s went after these obligations but the fact is they are not and any such comparisons  apples to oranges the i r s is currently ill equipped to engage in the massive outbound call operations the p c a is used to collect these obligations in the first year of the program's operation more than ninety thousand cases have been placed with the c a's more than seventy three hundred every zoltan resulted in full payment and more than twenty six hundred taxpayers have entered into installment agreements the p c s have already collected thirty two million dollars in gross revenue that would not have been collected otherwise making this  tax gap closing program with a proven track record the joint tax committee estimates that killing this program will result in the loss of over one billion dollars in revenue over the coming decade considering the difficulty of meeting the terms of pay go it's rather disappointing that the majority would actually find it necessary to raise taxes elsewhere in order to terminate a program that's helping to close the tax gap in fact during committee markup members of the ways and means committee suggested a number of ways to use the money that the majority is spending today by killing this program including delaying the implementation of a withholding rule on federal contractors are providing penalty relief to taxpayers who are under withholding their two thousand and seven taxes because they're unaware of the coming hit of the a m t which the majority has yet to pass but i'm sure that we will get around to that unfortunately those amendments were rejected on party line votes in the committee and of course we're not being a given given a chance to vote on those today in this house and speaker at this time i ask permission to yield the balance of my time to mr brady and to you and i ask that he be allowed to control that time and yield it to other members animals recognize we are in a time where there is a complete fascination in this administration with contracting out if you are happy with blackwater in iraq that i expect you are perfectly fine with contracting the debt collection of i r s debt to private bill collectors but there are some essential facts at issue which should give us pause to reconsider the start up costs we were told in testimony by the i r s commissioner this venture was going to cost about fourteen million dollars to get up and running the tab so far seventy million dollars five times the anticipated cost to begin this venture and you might say well ok start up costs little more the next than experience that expected but how are we doing on receipts now we got them fully going collecting these receipts so we don't have a very good story on that one either it was anticipated that forty six million to maybe sixty three million would be collected coming in about half of that  thirty two million dollars in cost five times more to start bringing in about half as much as advertised well ok thirty two million still sounds like a lot well not when you consider the fact they've been given a hundred and eighteen thousand cases with an on paid out of five hundred twelve million dollars for the kind of money we've invested you know what we're getting back we're getting about  six percent return from this experiment in private debt collection you might be asking yourself must be some more efficient way to do this well there sure is that's fun the s hire train manage the debt collection my gosh if there's one government responsibility ought to be in making certain that the revenue all does the revenue raise and the statistics show by the i r s themselves that for a dollar spent on i r s staff collecting debt you get a twenty to one return twenty dollars back for every dollar spent private debt collection i r s again projected at best four dollars back for every dollar spent twenty dollars if we hire to one dollar spent four dollars if we hire to every dollar spent under contract unless they're projecting look at thirty two million collected and seventy million spent we're collecting fifty cents for every dollar spent so far as pretty bad business if we spent the seventy one million dollars to hire federal collection staff we've already collected one point four billion dollars that's the total amount they project over ten years under this experiment with private debt collection and i sit in the ways and means committee and as we consider this notion before it became operative i thought this is a most expensive way to do this reminded me of that six hundred dollar toilet seat that the department of defense paid for a while back i call this the six hundred dollar toilet seat of that car of tax collection well when you look at it i've taken seventy million dollars to build this gold plated sauna flushed away fifty million dollars on this foolish experiment there are many reasons to end this ill advised endeavor in the speaker's we present are going to offer those reasons but the fundamental is  recognize most appropriate that we talk about six hundred dollars toilet seat because indeed this bill bell this bill smells to high heaven to the matter is you'll hear a lot of wild claims made on the house floor today but in truth the joint taxation committee congressional budget office and every other independent agency has testified that passing this bill will cost the american taxpayers more than one billion dollars is a testament that this program is working in will continue to work to save dollars for the american taxpayer for the payer by going after those who owe their taxes on behalf of those of us who pay our taxes mr speaker i stay in strong opposition h r thirty fifty six this bill would eliminate a program the sash to make money for the government over to do tax bills collected by qualified private companies from people who vote too little for the i r s to use up valuable resources going after them today the i r s has turned over ninety thousand cases worth nearly half a billion dollars and the dollars add up to the tune of thirty two million dollars collected since last month and there's more to come as i said more than one billion dollars of the next decade this is money that's helping to close the tax gap and its revenues the treasury department can use to hire more employees under the program the i r s can retain up to a quarter of the collection to hire additional unfortunate workers and already some five point seven million dollars has been designated by the i r s for collection activities and twenty one million dollars has gone toward deficit reduction is helping reduce the federal deficit some argue the collection agents of harassed taxpayers the reality is that these agents are held the same standards there are as i r s employees when it comes to protecting taxpayer ri and as a matter of fact out of fifty one thousand cases it was testified at our recent ways and means committee there were no zero violations of taxpayer privacy zero these companies do face difficult finding the correct person as iris does not provide the collectors with the taxpayers the last known phone number this might be an area to look for reforming rather than killing this important program some argue that iris could collect the same that's more cheaply if they go hire more employees but the truth matter is these deaths have already been contacted four times these tax payers four times by their s and have not had luck in collecting them  report in two thousand and four general accountability office says that these private companies can recover four dollars and sixty cents for every dollar spent while additional i r s employees would recover less would be less efficient in recovering the bottom line is that the program is working taxpayer rights and privacy are being protected the program allows iris to do what they are good at in forstmann of higher profile that while al be qualified to collect smaller debts about tens of thousands of taxpayers and private debt collectors aren't a novel idea other federal agencies in many states forty states thousands of local government agencies use private agents to collect everything from overdue income taxes alcohol and cigarette taxes to local property taxes it's working and it would be a disservice to taxpayers who actually pay their taxes on time to discontinue it now the bottom line truly speaker is is the are we serious about closing the tax the tax care are we serious about collecting the debts that are owed people here tend to always see things in black and white and you'll hear this in the employees who do an excellent job in private debt collectors who do next one job in the tougher debts to collect in order for the tax payers truly get the dollars that they are owned in this this country the dollars that they are truly owed with that i would deserve the in terms of dollars received than contracting out for worrying about i r s efficiency do it on the staff model and i might say that their cost estimate about this bill contemplates that the i hire no staff would just forget this hiring out contractors hire no staff just walk away from that went on a we've got a very different notion we want to take the money we're suddenly he's proud of bill collectors and hire i r s staff that are going to collect on this five to one ratio we've got a much better more efficient model to address this issue of unpaid balances owed to the united states i'd like to yield two minutes the gentleman from georgia mr lewis the gentleman george is recognized for two minutes i miss i the ways and means committee held a hearing on this program and we and that it has no business no place in the collection of taxes this program violates the public trust taxpayer all trust the information could be given to a private debt collection collect on it should never ever happen taxpayer have been harassed on the dis program thousand innocent taxpayers of maine call on the phone and ask for their social security number they offer it and then it will be stolen in some cases the calls a never ever in and we find that one elderly couple will call one hundred and fifty times over thirty days that's not right that's not fair this program trog low income taxpayers and these private debt collectors even gold apple nursing home resident and military personnel serving in iraq it is unbelievable the use of private dick collect to erode the federal tax system the public trust and the church and i said mr speaker enough is enough r s employees with the ability to do a levy lien in fines they are able to compel certain type taxpayers to pay efficiently and they can go after the larger more complex cases very well it is this group here that we've had difficulty collecting taxes from in the past that these proven tax collectors across forty states have done such a good job of collecting and that is the bottom line are we going to collect the taxes to the american for pat people or not but that i would yield two minutes to the ranking member of the traits of many a gentleman from california who has worked very hard on behalf of american taxpayers and i'm california's recognized for two minutes thank you mr speaker i rise in strong opposition that attack collection responsibility act this legislation would on wisely a lemonade and i r s program which kalac otherwise uncollected tax  refusing as much as two point two billion dollars in federal revenue in addition this partisan measure does a disservice to the overwhelmingly bipartisan effort to repeal the three percent withholding burden before it takes a fat in less than four years three percent of all payments made by a government to a business or individual providing goods or services will be unfairly withheld as a prepayment on taxes this would needlessly reduce cash flow for thousands of small businesses across the u s today's bill merely delays three percent withholding implementation for one year but that does not solve this real and pressing problem what congress should do is follow the broader proposal by my friend kendrick me florida and i have entered a news repeal laying there withholding tax outright pairing a scaled back one year delay with the majority's repeal of the private collection agency program flat the bipartisan broad based full repeal initiative mr speaker that me kerger proposal has two hundred and nineteen co sponsors from both parties further the close rule prohibits a republican substitute that would have provided for consideration of full three percent withholding repeal alone and on its own merit i urge members to reject this flawed bill and yield back the remainder of my time the gentleman yield back the gentleman from north dakota deal two minutes to the gentleman from oregon mr bowman a gentleman from oregon is recognized for two minutes i appreciate the gentleman's courtesy  make no mistake we're talking about uncollected taxes that are uncle acted because of a systematic effort by this republican administration and the republican congress to undermine the ability of the  s to do its job while they were cranking up the audits on the poorest of citizens while stopping the i r s from oversight of those who are more wealthy as my good friend from north dakota pointed out we're talking about a six percent rate of return when the independent officer who has been set up within the i r s to give the independent judgment has pointed out that this same seventy one million dollars would collect over one point four billion uncollected tax dollars independent observers know that investing in the i r s and its employees rather than on accountable private contractors will get more money and will do so in a more humane fashion it was shocking for the committee to listen to some of the phone calls to the abuse that has been subjected to american taxpayers who are caught in the alice in wonderland of these private collectors i would urge my colleagues if they have any doubt to try an experiment i've done this at home i've met with c p a s tax attorneys and with financial advisors all of them suggest investing more in the i r s infrastructure to improve customer service and it will collect more money the i would strongly suggest that it is time to stop this dark chapter elating the i r s giving money to private contractors and instead do a better job for the taxpayer i for one support the notion of the one year suspension of the three percent contract or withholding i think it makes sense to try and sort this out i think it needs more examination i think we can have a better proposal this got slipped in the senate without any house consideration in the last congress i think a delay makes sense i support it i support the underlying bill and i urge my colleagues to do the same telling texas ms speaker i would point out that the this practice has already generated nearly six million dollars for additional i is recognized for three minutes mr brady for yielding in iraq to oppose a two or three o five six and let me start mr speaker by saying that i strongly support the right of public and private employees to organize and to work for better working conditions and improve the quality of life in their workplaces and in their communities and my record reflects that however i think there is something that we all agree upon as democrats as republicans as public employees private sector employees and that is that there is a huge tax gap in this nation and that tax gap is to the tune of three hundred forty five billion dollars let me say that again three hundred forty five billion dollars it adds on the average taxpayer about twenty seven hundred dollars to his tax bill on an annual basis these are tax dollars most of them who have been acknowledged by the taxpayer that th but the our s has not been able to go after him for whatever reasons and so the r s private debt can collection program is putting money back in the pockets of hardworking americans i would like to tell you that the private collection agencies working on this contract do not replace a single hour s worker and no i r s jobs are lost through this program today this program has recovered about three thirty million dollars in delinquent taxes this this pilot project has doris's turned over about seventy seven thousand cases worth nearly four hundred fifty million dollars in unpaid taxes now i've heard some speak about  harassment undue harassment by the private collectors all have to tell you mr speaker that this program is closely scrutinized by the r s and the r s program has according to the internal revenue service itself received a ninety eight percent right favorable rating from the r s for regulatory procedural accuracy and a one hundred percent rating for professionalism one hundred percent rating for professionalism this program has also receive ninety six percent rating for tax payer satisfaction so less than one percent of those tax payers collected by the private collection agencies have filed complaints with r s and none of those complaints against the compan currently participating in the program have been validated mr speaker this program is bringing in money to the u s treasury without raising taxes in closing that tax gap and will be able to close that tax gap if we can keep keep the programs and improve them money money that otherwise will never be collected to this end it would be a very bad message to say and that we are not serious about closing the tax gap so i urge mr speaker my colleagues to vote down this h r three zero five six are you back about what that gentleman from north dakota we had hearing testimony on the survey that was referenced by my friend from florida  basically the g a o testified the survey was fundamentally flawed of three hundred thousand conversations that have taken place one thousand where the subject of the survey for getting taxpayer satisfaction and the private debt collectors were able to pick which ones got the survey so i one thousand survey sample out of the three hundred thousand universe with those stakeholders picking the ones that get to say it was not viewed as credible by the g a o not do this credible by the majority on ways and means with that i yield two minutes to mr pascoe of new jersey jemma from new jersey is recognized for two men activist a speaker  thank you for the gentleman you know this is a cooked up survey that was just referred to and in the words of the former i r s commissioner mark iverson appointed by president bush he testified that the i r s can collect federal taxes more cheaply more efficiently than private companies i rest my case i rise in strong support of h r thirty fifty six that the collection of federal taxes is an errant government function we have seen through multiple hearings in ways and means that privatizing and outsourcing is fundamental role has been a mistake on many levels we've learned of numerous cases of harassment not overexaggeration on the record abuse of calling on violations of the rights of taxpayers we've discovered that some taxpayers man y of whom were elderly have had to endure literally hundreds of phone calls from private collectors we listen to those phone calls we had them on tape tapes terrible thing you know they don't lie other cases involve people in nursing homes those who have served interact low income taxpayers facing economic hardships and as if taxpayer harassment was not enough we've also seen that the program is inefficient so far privatizing tax and tax collection as actually cost us money currently we are fifty million dollars in the hole the i r s s spent seventy one million to collect a net of twenty million is just like the postal department that the privatizing the providing a mail throughout the united states now they're back in a lot finally it's a been a disaster after paying five point five million a commission to the private sector lectors they get iris employees instead of private contractors statistics project that they would have collected over one point four billion dollars that's quite a difference and b and taxpayers deserve more expect a deal with their government when they have a my colleagues to vote in favor of this legislation thank you very much mr speaker jemma texas is to speak out point out that the at the ways and means hearing the general accountability office testified they look for book could not find any evidence that the private collection aid the selected individuals for the survey based on their perception of what the responses would be i would point out that the same agency testified that they were zero no violations of any privacy right through fifty one thousand and growing cases ero violations and i do wish that those telephone taste could be played here on the house floor so members of the public as well as congress could hear the professionalism of those phone calls as they seek to identify sensitively the individuals who are allowed and do owe dollars to the american taxpayers and i will point out too that if these debts were so easy to collect by the i r s why did the i r s already have four opportunities to collect them from each taxpayer before they were turned over to these agencies who have done such a good job solid job of collecting them with that i would yield four minutes to the gentleman from new york who has not only fought on behalf of taxpayers but has a number of women and minority workers and the professionals in his district who have done a very wonderful job in this arena the gentleman from new york jim brooks recognized for a minute i thank the gentleman from texas i ask and other members of the ways and means committee who have also carry a strong voice such as the gentleman from texas for some members of this body and both sides of the debate this issue is simply about policy we understand that for them it's an abstract question about whether private collection agencies or so called p c a should be able to play a limited supplement perry role in the i efforts to kalac delinquent tax debt but for me in the area i represent a western new york it's about both policy and much more than that it's about jobs as a member of congress who represents rural wyoming county in western new york i'm actually more familiar than most with the work that p c h do after all the largest single private employer in wyoming county is pioneer credit recovery it's one of only two companies nationwide that the i r s has selected to help get its important program underway misspeak or pioneer credit is a highly respected local business that's created more than fourteen hundred high paying jobs for families living in either my district or neighboring picture around buffalo and rochester and my fellow members of the western new york's congressional delegation know these jobs have been created in a region that face serious economic challenges and you know as i've listened today to this debate sometimes you wonder just exactly who might be on that phone these are highly trained rural folks coming from communities much like the gentleman from north dakota has in north dakota just happens to world area of a large state of new york and those people some that's are only income to the household some it's the supplement carried a farming calm or manufacturing income and i've looked at some of these people i've known for years i've seen some of these people where i've just met them the day they went to work to have a meaningful job after maybe a manufacturing shop closed down in wyoming county and were unable to stay on the family farm but they're hardworking decent people who subscribe to federal and state laws that this honorable body actually is set forth in the past that deliberated and said you will function as collectors and you know one thing about the people's house we have had a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds but you know as a small businessman myself i promise you the only time i stand out in the days i was in business to a private collection agency was when i couldn't collect that money for an insurance premium or commission and i had no other recourse but to look at private collection and they professionally got the job done to bring back money that was owed and as my colleague bradys point it out the i chances to kind of get this money and still didn't come back with it and we looked at an opportunity could we gain over ten years over one billion dollars in order to increase the where house in perry new york into a thriving job center for newly hired ploys it's been a great economic success story for a part of western new york that desperately needed it and it began to produce the results that the congress and the i r s expected so as someone who has fought to give the i r s the authority to partner with these private companies in the first place i am deeply troubled that the new majority is now threatening to diaz arrises important program just as it gets under way if this program is allowed to continue pioneer credit will be given the opportunity compete for future i r s contracts that could create many additional jobs in the area represent killing this program on the other hand would cost my constituents real jobs at a time that congress should be working to expand employment opportunities particularly in hard hit areas that are struggling economically i would also note mr speaker that under the democrats paygo rules proposals that reduce anticipated federal revenues must be offset by other provisions that raise revenue thus their proposal to eliminate the p a tax collection program which is expected to net at least that billion dollars over the next decade also requires them to raise one billion in new taxes somewhere else this bill is wrong on policy it's wrong on job creation it's wrong on tax hikes arjen no vote you'll back the balance of my time only yields back gentleman from north dakota which is bigger the gentleman has spoken passionately about the jobs in his district and i look forward to working with him on economic revitalization issues so vitally important to rural areas like the ones he and i both represent but this is really not a jobs program before us what is the best way for taxpayers to have collected what they all want to collect what we're old and we believe for every i r s employee going to collect twenty dollars for every private debt collector optimistic projection is you're going to collect four dollars the reality has been much less than that so what we're talking about the issue before us what's the best way to get the money we are owed the best way to do it speaker i rise today in support of the tax collection responsibility act this bill will prevent the i r s from using private dick collectors to collect federal income taxes when current contracts have expired private debt collectors have proven to be very poorly equipped for the job this change is important to protect taxpayers privacy coming from las vegas i've never been a great fan of the i r s i r s abuse in las vegas is legendary the only thing worse are private debt collectors that have harassed and threatened and intimidated the taxpayers in my district and throughout the united states to collect back taxes and to also collect a hefty fee the i r s ought to do its job of collecting taxes and congress ought to do our job by giving them the resources the i r s needs to do its job the bill also prospectives implementation of a three percent withholding requirement on government payments to vendors this requirement will cause significant administrative and financial burdens on local governments as local government as a local government that spends more than one hundred million per year on vender products and services clark county nevada would be required to withhold three percent of payments to businesses under the new requirement companies that contract with local government would be terribly and unfair fairly penalize this good result it will result in care's flow problems for small businesses and ultimately higher prices for all consumers this bill will postpone the three percent withholding requirement to give the treasury department time to study the impact of this provision on local governments and s and this program that is being sought to be eliminated has already generated almost six million dollars for more i r s agents in collection agency with that i would like to inquire how much time does each have side have meaning because the gentleman has six minutes remaining the gentleman from north dakota has eleven and a half minutes at this point i would reserve the balance but the gentleman reserves gentleman from north dakota speaker lying a pleasure to yield four minutes to the bill's prime sponsor gentleman from maryland mr van hollen the gentleman from maryland recognized orman's i thank you mr speaker and i thank my colleague from north dakota for his long time efforts on behalf of fair treatment for taxpayers in this country and i rise in strong support of this legislation the tax collection responsibility act of two thousand and seven  practices that this bill provides for better collection and fair collection for small businesses i also believe it's high time we repeal a abusive and misguided debt collection program at the i pleased to have worked on this issue for a number of years with my colleague from new jersey mr rothman and others i think we all know this is not a new issue to this body we tried private tax collection in one thousand nine hundred six and promptly abandoned it a year later after which time the i r s office of inspector general found that private contractors regularly violated the fair debt collection practices act jeopardize the confidentiality of taxpayers personal information and cost the government a net revenue loss of seventeen million dollars under the republican congress this program was revived and came to the floor actually in a form that we did not have a chance to vote separately on it because when the house has had an opportunity over the last three years to vote separately on this issue this body on a bipartisan basis has said no to private decks collection that bill never made it to the president's desk but there's a good reason this house has said no to this program and that's because i r s officials themselves have acknowledged that using private debt collectors is much more expensive than having the i r s do the job today on the program that we're talking about the i seventy one million dollars and collected a net of twenty million dollars that's a losing proposition on its face moreover in her testimony before the ways and means committee the national taxpayer advocate nina olson whose job at the i r s is to look out for the fair treatment of taxpayers recommended that we end this program and further pointed out as others have said that if you took the same amount of money and invested it in allowing i r s agents to collect the revenue you would collect one point four billion instead of the twenty million collected so far in this program in addition and i think this is an important point to make when this congress in the one nine hundred ninety s passed the i r s restructuring reform act we specifically said that our public employees are i r s agents could not receive bonuses could not receive special rewards for collecting more taxes because we want to avoid an incentive for abuse and yet that is exactly the premise this entire program is based on it is based on bigger rewards in the sense from more taxes collected and that is what leads in turn to abusive tax practices that we have said we don't want our s agents to comply in addition to the fact the result is for every dollar collected under the private tax collection twenty five cents goes to a private company whereas with i r s agents that dollar collected goes to the federal treasury for debt reduction and for investment porton public purposes so it's a much better return for the taxpayer i would argue mr speaker that is very clear over the errors that are repeat of experiments in private decks collection have failed if the i r s needs additional resources to collect uncollected revenues and i think it does we've heard from the i commissioners in republican and democratic administrations alike that a much better investment is to put those dollars into our public i r s agents it results in less abusive practices it makes sure that you also have the dollars come back where it belongs to the taxpayer and the public benefit i thank you mr speaker gentlemen texas reckoning i would point out it is difficult to have an obese of program when there's ninety seven percent customer satisfaction in zero privacy violations in virago a fair debt collection act violations zero point out as far as efficiency you don't have to take anyone's word on this floor if this program is working attached to this bill is testimony that says eliminating it will cost the u s taxpayers one billion dollars so you don't have to take our word for the experts who are independent who've looked at this issue know this isn't a fission program for the u s tax dollars i would continue to reserve my time and i'm a reserve gentleman from north dakota mr chairman our information somewhat different from the information just propounded and we believe that indeed the record would show them an eighty three complaints and these complaints include tax payers who receive letters with another tax payers information inside not this isn't a taxpayer privacy violation i don't know what is at least one fine it's been assessed and this is in the early going of the program all acknowledge perfections pretty hard standard to meet but they have not met perfection and they have not generated the money in collection that was  at this private collection of taxpayer money that is owed to the i r s mr speaker here's the problem about three hundred billion dollars is owed to the american taxpayers by those income earners who refused to pay the taxes they admit they owe the money that they refused to pay that's about three hundred billion dollars that's the problem now what's the solution to the problem well the republicans here say let's privatized this give it to private people private companies will make a profit on collecting the tax monies and they'll collect about four dollars for every one dollar we spend on them collect four dollars the other solution is to hire more i r s agents and for every dollar we invest in them will get twenty dollars not the four that goes to the private debt collectors will collect that they produce but twenty dollars will collect five times more so why would we give away the taxpayer's money by letting private debt collectors collect our debts just so we can collect five times less they say well that's we don't want to support big government well they want to waste all those tens or hundreds of billions of dollars by giving into private debt collectors to collect at five times less effectiveness makes no sense but this is nothing new they want to privatized social security they privatized the prescription drug program for seniors they want to deprive the ties the collection of  they wanted to privatized and they did security contracting in the rock however blackwater and they did so at walter reed army hospital and you know the results of their private and i feel the gentleman an additional thirty seconds i thank you gentleman so this ideology of the republican party and this president that we need to privatizing everything doesn't make sense when he thinks taxpayer dollars and in fact is an opportunity for a very select few in our society to profit at the expense of everybody else not only is it on american it's wasteful it's wrong we can do better with this solution that's i've been fighting for this for a years and i'm so proud to support h r thirty fifty six now if they say the choice is do nothing or something do it the right way pass h r thirty fifty six challenge in texas i would point out that that the private debt collecting is used by forty different states whose governors are republican and democrat and thousands of local government agencies and organizations again both republican and democrat this isn't an issue privatization it's the issue of efficiency in this partnership between the i r s and private debt collectors for this group of tax payers who are hard to collect those taxes will yield an additional one billion dollars for the american people with that i would reserve the balance of my time and only reserves gentleman from north dakota just because part of the i r s appropriation we fund the national taxpayer advocate in h ex annual report she writes we are concerned that the private collector a using trickery device and belated fair labor fair debt collection practices act warnings to take advantage of taxpayers we are concerned private collectors are taking advantage of taxpayer that from the national taxpayer advocate that i yield two minutes to the gentleman who has advanced the prohibition of this ill advised endeavor in the appropriations committee mr serrano from new york general new york is recognized for two minutes without objection so already i thank the gentleman you know this has to be one of the worst ideas have a put forth just think of it instead of getting the i r s to collect the tax dollars we go and tell someone else that they can call like that twenty four cents on the dollar instead of hiring more folks to collect what they've been doing for so many years so we lose twenty four cents on every dollar rather than to have someone take care of this now the i r s has spent seventy one million dollars in dollars we've given them on this program and have collected in return somewhere between twenty and twenty five million dollars the i r s tax payer advocates was mentioned by the gentleman calculated that if this money had been spent by the i r s to collect they would have collected one four point four billion dollars now we've also heard here about the harassment tactics now we can deny it as much as we like but when you give me an incentive of twenty five cents on the dollar to collect from taxpayers things can get out of hand that's why senior citizens have been called one hundred fifty times in a month's time looking for their son my friends these kind of tactics would make a great comeback episode for the sopranos and i think my one might be in the working now the i r s can do this work we tried to do this as you know in our committee and it was defeated basically with the with the minority party saying that on a point order they would pull it out of the bill but it was our intent to do that in our built in addition we put in four hundred million dollars in fiscal year zero eight with this funding the i r s should be able to start working on these cases themselves without outsourcing now i know as mr rothman has said that there is a madness in this house about taking everything that american workers do and sending it somewhere else overseas usually and then what government employees do send it to another agency or to somebody else i can't wait to the day when you decide that the whole congress should be outsourced overseas and we should have people doing our work this is a bad idea we should pass this bill and stop this program  states not just this administration more than forty states democratic governors and republican governors use the exact same type of collections techniques the same partnerships to do what's right for the american people and i would point out that we've heard claims today of literally tens of thousands of people who've been around asked by these private debt collectors all the abuses and i would simply challenge you to name one in this debate today research gentleman from north dakota which figure i've just read from the national taxpayer advocate report we're concerned private collectors are taking advantage of taxpayers will submit this for the record with akron pennsylvania one minute gentlemen pennsylvania is recognized for one minute think the speaker rises put it this bill for three reasons first is the cost of the my colleagues have previously said we should have raised from these private agencies at least forty four to sixty three million dollars today in fact it's only been twenty five million with a sunk cost of fifty one million dollars but second is the more cost effective way that another agency the i r s might do this we know that they've collected this year alone five point three million dollars from the automated call service imagine if we had not decreased the number of i r s officers from eighty five hundred during the ninety's down to only fifty two hundred today and we put the money into them or the automatic call service that twenty to one return that the government gets is far exceeds the four to one return of private agencies and third however after thirty one years the military it hurt me pain me to see us outsource our security operations to private agencies in iraq at times there is abuse dissimilar to that what we hear today seniors those in iraq being called in fact the senior couple being called one hundred fifty times five times a day and then we learned they had the wrong number therefore i rise in support of this bill because the cost  to the majority bill that this house is considering today according to the majorities bill the joint tax group testifies in asserts that this program that is working today will collect one billion dollars more you can hear every claim you want on this house floor but their own bill says to the american public this program it will collect one billion dollars more than if it were to be eliminated that is not at dispute today i would serve the balance of my time and money reserves gentleman from north dakota the mr speaker the cost assumes that not a nickel is spent on i r s capacity indeed if we spent it on i r s capacity the unrefuted evidence is that it would be a five to one return relative to private collectors i reserve the balance of my time i intend to yield to the majority  at this point to a thank you my friend from north dakota i would like to deal two minutes from the gentleman from new york mr reynolds gentleman from new york's recognized for two minutes misspeak or this won't be the first or last time that debate on the floor comes on different greens disagreements of policy or well crafted rhetoric that goes to the extreme of bringing forth one's position but i think that my colleague mr brady and others who have spoken in the ash fact that private collection has worked in the portion that has been assigned in their mission as they get under y that the complexity of collecting taxes of the tax gap which if you recognize a tax gap as a challenge of revenue one that this congress very quickly and gladly put forth that a billion dollars of collection through private collection agencies would be achieved and as we now embark on that we have listened to cough language and rhetoric and listening to where i sat through most of those public hearings crafting today the reflection of what they thought they heard in those hearings and i think that we look at results as we move towards the opportunity of seeing private collection because one thing that has been a minute if i'm not mistaken regardless of what this body does the other body will have serious challenge and cian legislation passed and there's a presidential veto that says that it will not occur and so as we measure in the future the work that has been done that's been assigned to the p c s and we look at the aspect of a goal that all of us would have that the i r s has tools to do their job so that collection continue think we will also see in short time that private collection agencies have done the mission they were asked to do in the pilot out in iowa and in western new york and i think as we give that a chance no we hear a lot of claims today about the efficiency this program but our agencies the independent agencies general cowing office and joint tax makes the point attached to this legislation that this program has worked in is working efficiently and will save the u s tax taxpayers more than one billion dollars you will hear today about about the abuses but the fact the matter is they can name not one in every independent including the i r s treasury examination this program has showed ninety seven percent customer satisfaction and zero zero privacy violations zero fair debt collection at violations zero no matter what's talked about and truth the matter is this could the question before us today is not about about privatization this is about credibility this majority is talk about closing the tax gap what is owed and what is paid yet today we will widen that tax gap by over one billion dollars so the question is will we walk the walk or just talk the talk about the tax gap this partnership between the i r s and these private collection agencies is working for the american public we ought to let it continue to work for the american public because we could use that one billion dollars for health care for education for helping our veterans for a number of important priorities in this budget and we will have some type of financial standoff here in a few months yet we let one billion dollars escape our grasp i would urge a no vote thank you the gentleman yield back t balance of his time the gentleman from north dakota which speaker we believe private debt collection of iris debt is a terrible idea and an important matter which is why the majority leader will close for our side to the balance of the time for the majority leader mr hoyer from maryland i thank my friend for gentleman a direct and i thank my friend for yielding first let me respond to the what has been made the point mr brady has made a number of times reporters referring to as if we did not spend any money on private collection we wouldn't collect a billion dollars we can accept that is accurate but the assumption is that we wouldn't spend any money in the public sector to collect that money which in fact and i will read figures on say is that if we did that we would geometrically collect more than a billion dollars by a factor maybe of two or three or four or five i'll read that figure mr brady but you keep reading that figure and the assumption  we are simply going to drop collection we're not going to drop collection today through this important legislation the tax collection responsibility act this alice will reiterate that the collection of taxes is a core governmental function that should not be contracted out to private companies but no one no one should be mistaken our obligation to to the private collection of taxes is not simply philosophical it is practical as well first there simply is no evidence that private tax collectors are more efficient in fact the opposite is true iris commissioners of both parties repeatedly have testified before congress that i r s employees could do this work more efficiently in fact according to the i r s and the return on investment for i r s employees doing work similar to private collection agency is thirteen to one the private collection agency return is about four to  one or approximately one third as effective in the private sector as it is in the public sector that's what the i r s commissioners say secondly with americans legitimately concerned about the privacy of their personal information and identity theft i do not believe and i hope this house will not believe that it is good policy to turn over so security identification numbers and tax information to private collection companies thirdly the national taxpayer advocate has raised concerns about the tactics used by private collection agencies including intimidation and harassment the fact is pri collectors are keeping twenty one to twenty four percent of what they collect and are allowed to keep up to twenty five percent under the law thus with the compensation to put private collection agencies directly tied to what they collect are incentivized to use aggressive tactics ironically however let me go back to that figure they are less effective in collecting thirteen to one versus four to one than the than the public sector finally mr speaker let me say that too many of my republican friends want it both ways on the one hand republican controlled congress is have cut the iris workforce by twenty thousand people since one nine five in fact just this year they offered an amendment to the financial services appropriation bill that would cut iris funding by eight point nine percent yet they come to the floor and saying that we're not aggressively collecting sufficient funds so we have to privatizing contracted out that expense of course is an additional expense which by the way escalates more rapidly than does the public sector expense on the other hand as i said they complain that we must allow the government to hire private collections agency because the i r s does not have the resources to recover all income tax that is owed so on the one hand cut their resources and then come to the floor and say they don't have sufficient resources to do the job so we will contract it out which will require of course contract resources while eliminating  salary resource i think we all know the most efficient effective solution we need to provide the i r s i r s with the resources it needs to ensure that all taxpayers pay their fair share under the law so that no taxpayer has to pay more than their fair share or have rates greater than they need to be which would be the case if everybody paid their fair share mr speaker this legislation is an important step in that effort i urge all of my colleagues mr speaker to vote for this important bill report the same back to the house promptly with the following amendments at the end of the of the bill add the following section nine estate tax repeal a permanent section nine zero one as the economic growth and tax relief reconciliation act  this motion to recommit to the underlying bill now the tax collection responsibility act the motion to recommit would actually incorporate h r twenty three eighty which is a bill to which i have i'm the original sponsor it's a bipartisan bill and i would hope that my colleagues on the other side of the aisle especially those who co sponsored the bill would see fit to support this motion to recommit let me since i have these few moments and i distinguished chairman of the committee who may be responding let me anticipate some points or questions perhaps and try to respond to those we may hear the question why are we doing the death tax repeal now well three times in the last session of congress did we have the opportunity to debate this issue and vote on it and again this house in a bipartisan fashion voted to completely permanently repeal the death tax i'm not certain that under the new majority whether we'll have that opportunity or not and there's a policy rationale for considering this measure now one is the certainty as the speaker knows that right now there is a two million dollar exemption a forty five percent rate a very  and ten goes up to a complete repeal and there is a lack of certainty especially those family businesses that are looking to plan how to dispose of those assets so i think now is an appropriate time we may hear from my good friend the chairman of the ways and means committee is this bill paid for and i would suggest first of all that there is no budgetary impact in fiscal year two thousand and nine we are looking beyond january first of two thousand and eleven before any budgetary impact and i would commend the gentleman the chairman of the ways and means committee who at least has been quoted in the paper of saying that the he is ready to tackle some big tough issues like the alternative minimum tax the permanent death tax repeal is significantly less loss of revenue to the government and repealing the a m t he has talked about fairness and equity i can think of nothing more fair or fair than to get rid of this very punitive tax now we may hear from the other side as traditionally do this is only something that a handful of individuals face or that this is for millionaires only my return my rejoinder to that would be then why is every small business group in america whether it be the national federation of independent business whether it be every business group that represents minority interests the hispanic chamber of commerce the african american chamber of commerce in the past all have supported complete repeal find a repeal of this very p and let me just talk a little bit about the values of this you know this is the land of opportunity is it not now the old adage is if you build a better mousetrap the world will beat a path to your door the only thing guaranteed of course in america is the guarantee of freedom and liberty and the opportunity to achieve whatever it is that you dream about let me tell you a very personal story of a dream of a young couple young strapping man left home in one thousand nine hundred fifty six with his new bride in tow and a thousand dollars to their name that was what his father had given him to go make his way into the world and so they settled in mrs emerson's district in southeast missouri and they worked very hard to build a farm over the course of those many years this couple and they had a son and only son that individuals the one the chair has recognized here today now they built this family business a family owned farm five hundred acres three tractors used combine the farmhouse where i grew up and so it was of course the unfortunate reality of life and that is we meet our heavenly reward and so i pat dad passed it on the anniversary of john f kennedy's death on november twenty second five years ago this november mom survived another seventeen months after that and so i'm sitting there across the mahogany desk from our old longtime family accountant who had an old adding machine with a tape in it and he's plugging in a value for all of these assets that my parents had already been taxed on but whose assets were to to help put food on the table and suddenly i broke out in a cold sweat because i knew when he hit the total button that that figure was either going to be above or be tro below an arbitrary line a line set by this body mr speaker death of a family member should not be a taxable event and the fact is that if congress fails to do anything with the current regime virtually every small business in america in two thousand and eleven is going to be facing this very p minutes and my friend is a an articulate and forceful advocate and we all moved by the story of his time with the lawyer but they did not all attacks and basically there's a figure missing from the motion he brings before us today a very important figure the cost of what the underlying bill would require the repeal of the estate tax that at the cost of the motion we commit would require that figure is four hundred ninety eight point eight billion dollars and we're a nation of one trillion dollars of debt nine trillion dollars of debt and they bring forward a proposal that would add another four hundred ninety eight point eight billion dollars and they fail to say anything about how they're going to pay for it in their motion well obviously serious minded legislators like my friend would not bring forward a serious proposal about repealing the estate tax without some means of paying for it and that's really what the heart of this motion is it's not a real estate tax motion this is a kill the underlying bill motion and this other side they got some different priorities last week they're against s chip expanding health insurance to uninsured kids this week they're basically for they want to keep the vote from happening at all which is what the underlying motion recommit does sends that promptly back to ways and means committee which means the underlying bill is not before the house for a vote to further use the time on  outstanding member of the ways and means committee and i appreciate his contribution to the committee and i was moved by his story of the hardship that he felt as a result of this state bounty hunters from working on commission and unfairly leaning and putting pressure on people who are federal government that's one thing if you want to just substitute that and take back to the committee your idea about what we should do in a state tax well you know as well as i do that we have to find out how much money do we lose weight if we raise the money and do it in a republican democratic fiscal fashion to say hey i want to reduce taxes here and raise it someplace else maybe on the kids maybe a little tobacco maybe whatever makes you feel good but don't kill something with a palm tree mulch and it's not the right thing to do i think the subject matter that you discuss does warrant some discussion some place at some time but to imply that we should report back promptly how promptly should we deal with the question of a state tax or estate tax repeal where do we get the half a billion dollars these are things that i think should be it another day in another time right now we're talking about a great bill that if you kill this bill through a parliamentary procedure was all we talking about then the small business people that have been collecting government taxes they got to get it the citizens that we haven't a virgin islands that's treated unfairly with the stat delimitation they're going to get hit and the people who really believe that if you have to deal with your government if you have to deal with treasury department if you have to deal with the internal revenue for god's sake deal with a civil servant who's mortgage payment is not dependent on how much money he can get out if you do what someone that's been trained by the united states government to collect money that's owed to the united states government and not some company that has been created to fill  because some people believe that the private sector can always but always do it best and so i yield back my time to the distinguished gentleman from dakota but i do hope that when the committee has something to this will be a fifteen minute  companies to collect taxes earlier today we talked to a capitol hill reporter about the bill itself on the phone with us have a rough minute b n a news why did democrats want to end the i r s practice of outsourcing private debt collection what you're seeing during this debate is really a question of who democrats versus republicans think are better suited to collect certain taxes that are owed to the federal government their government employees which is the side the democrats are taking or private contractors which is the thought that republicans are taking well why do supporters want to continue to let the iris continue this practices of hiring private companies like this back in two thousand and four there's a tax bill and it allowed it included a provision to allow the i r s to supplement their own agents and use these private collection agencies to keep after delinquent taxpayers there's a taxpayers who admit they owe money but need a little push from the government  republicans would like to continue this program because the i r s has testified before congress that you know given budgetary constraints if they didn't have these outside resort these outside agencies to go through the i r s would simply put their resources elsewhere republicans say this is really helping in the effort to reduce the annual tax gap to somewhere around three hundred forty five billion dollars so the use of the annual tax scams three hundred forty five billion dollars what about this program itself getting private companies to do this how much does this generate for the treasury well that's interesting the program i have some recent figures here the program is estimated to bring in two point two billion dollars over its first ten years the i rested estimated that in fiscal year two thousand seven the agency would collect forty five point seven million to sixty five million dollars but that's a gross figure some one of the problems democrats have with these contracts is that the contractors are allowed to keep between twenty one and twenty four percent of the s take over this function again well they've testified that essentially it would get sort of pushed aside because they're such they're under such tight budgetary constraints now and they have so many competing interests that you know they would have to put those resources elsewhere what about the bush administration they issued a position on the bill what they say they issued a pretty stern veto warning the house has tried to do this repeatedly over the past couple of years typically in appropriations bills they've tried to get rid of this program but this year they they ran into a problem on the floor with the appropriations bill because of jurisdiction issues and has a strike it and so which is why this is a bill coming out of the ways and means committee the administration has said that if this got to their the president's desk that he would veto this measure have  supporters of the bill responded to how they would pay for any revenue that's lost from this bill they have the bill itself would cost about one point one six billion dollars over ten years and under congressional pay as you go rules the bill has to be revenue neutral so they've come up with four ways of off that in that there's a provision to mediately tax expatriating individuals that would raise about seven hundred sixty four million dollars over ten years there is a provision that would increase penalties on the form ten ninety nine information returns there's something related to tax deficiencies where the i r s is not notified a taxpayer and then they put in a provision that you see in a lot of tax bills where they increase estimated corporate tax payments for two thousand and twelve as a final off that one sounds like from your reporting lines are pretty clearly drawn here in the house what about the senate what are sentiments there for lane passing a similar bill i think if this can get through the house and it likely will on a almost strictly bipartisan vote you won't see it go anywhere else this year finance committee chairman baucus has kind of been quiet on the issue but to his partner ranking member chuck grassley is a supporter of the program and he's come out and earlier this year when the measure was before the house in the original appropriations bill he sent a letter to his colleagues asking them to you know keep this keep this program going because it does help the tax gap typically the finance committee works in a extremely bipartisan fashion and if either senator grassley or senator baucus doesn't like something they don't typically move on it you know with only one of them so i think it'll probably just die with this and that program has a rothman mention is a program under which private companies could contact delinquent tax payers and getting them to pay back taxes it's a subject of the bill on the house floor today we've been talking about it with b n a news thanks for joining us thank you and an update on our interview with heather rothman she let us know after the interview that she had misspoken when she said that the final tally would be bipartisan she meant to say that the house vote would be strictly partisan again that from heather rothman of b n a news programming note tonight over on c span two business week reporter ayman jobbers examines the republican presidential field and explains the candidates positions on the economy taxes and the deficit he'll be answering your phone calls as well that's live on c span two starting at nine p m eastern time and then at nine forty five p m eastern presidential candidates events from new hampshire first up democrat john edwards at a town hall meeting in claremont and then republican john mccain visits hollis new hampshire that also tonight on c span two as this vote in the house continues a procedural approve it was approved by party line votes as was pretty much expected the the bill that was you know brought forward and approved is the bill that comes from the democratic leadership century put forward by the chairman of the committee and the chairman of the intelligence committee how the debate go is it what you expected or not it was pretty much what to be expected republicans came in firing off criticism against the bill saying that it is going to create a loophole by which  communications of suspected foreign terrorists are going to slip through the cracks it's going to create too much of a burden for the administration and it does not give retroactive legal immunity to telecommunication companies that allegedly helped the administration with spying activities dating back to two thousand and one so republicans had their lines of argument all set up in and offered some amendments to  the retroactive liability for telecommunications companies why was it that that topic emerged as a key provision well the administration has really been pushing on the issue of giving the telecommunication companies legal protections for helping the government was spying activity and going into last summer the administration said that it needed to give protection to come news that are facing lawsuits now  a past spying activity and the democrats are saying that they requested the documents from the administration explaining what these companies were doing but the administration has not turned over the documents and so the democrats make the point that they they don't know what they would be giving immunity for because they haven't been able to see the information on what these companies were doing and so president bush came out today and kind of you know laid down the bill that is going through right now does not have enough protections does not involve the by the court enough in reviewing what the administration is doing in terms of surveillance when today in the intelligence committee that were approved and those amendments are essentially targeted toward tightening up the oversight of the spying activities and putting more requirements on the by the bills to be determined to see what happens with that how about outside groups so like the american civil liberties union what's their position group such as you and the center for democracy and technology have given the  democrats bill mixed review they say it's much better than temporary bill that was approved in august they say that it puts more controls in place but they often say that it doesn't go far enough in terms of requiring judicial oversight of communications of u s citizens they want to see the administration be required to get individual warrants any time that they have a any time they're intercepting communications by by u s citizens they say that's the fourth amendment you know constitutional protection and there's no room for waiving these constitutional protections so what's the next step where's the bill go now the next step in the house is that the house leadership has said that they are going to bring the bill to the floor next week so we expect to see the bill on the floor and and after that the senate has to decide what they're going to do and the senate intelligence committee and judiciary committees are supposed to mark up their version of the legislation this month and then the two chambers will have to reconcile any differences getting legislation to the white house but the two chambers are still enough to work out their differences chris drome of congress daily thanks for the update thanks the senate is out all this week they're back on monday and you can watch live senate coverage over on c span to the house wrapping up their votes for the week and with these votes on the i r s collector's bill no votes planned for thursday because of the funeral for representative joanne davis of virginia who passed away last weekend earlier today the house passed the housing trust fund bill a bill to provide about a million affordable homes for low income families over the next ten years the white house has threatened to veto that bill because of the way it's funded money would come from the federal housing administration and freddie mae and fannie mae excuse me and freddie mac this is a procedural vote motion to recommit the i r s collectors bill if this motion to recommit fails members then should move on to a vote on final passage this bill would end the i r s is use private companies to collect taxes over at the treasury department today treasury secretary henry paulson outline new steps toward helping homeowners avoid foreclosure who show you a portion of his news conference now as the vote in the house continues and thank everyone because we're all here with one common objective helping homeowners stay in their home everyone here knows well the turmoil in today's mortgage markets a combination of stagnant or falling house prices low down payment mortgages in resetting adjustable rate mortgage rates are creating real challenges for many american homeowners more and more homeowners are having trouble meeting their monthly mortgage payments and foreclosure rates and risen in recent quarters foreclosures are painful not only for families but also for neighborhoods for a mortgage servicers for mortgage investors and for the economy as a whole this morning i walk in the hall here today to applaud a new alliance of mortgage market participants who recognize that and recognize cost and they are stepping up their efforts to prevent it for as many families as possible on august thirty first president bush announced a foreclosure prevention initiative he  asked secretary alphonso jackson and me to spearhead an effort to identify struggling homeowners and help as many as possible to keep their homes as your primary residence we've been meeting with the nation's leading mortgage counselors mortga servicers lenders investors and other industry experts to explore their ideas and how to reach and help homeowners we learned that many individual participants are already actively engaged leading wor servicers have increased our outreach to borrowers who may need help or groups counselors have been working hard to support the large number of homeowners who are calling them and asking for help state and local governments across the country and started innovative programs targeted at people in neighborhoods hit worst by the market downturn each of these steps is critical and each is having an impact but we also know that we will not be nearly as effective as we need to be a less everyone is working together only through better integration of their efforts can mortgage hustlers and mortgage servicers reach the greatest number of borrowers facing payments they can't meet and only with increase coordination can they be more effective in finding solutions for homeowners today for the first time tena largest mortgage services representing sixty percent of mortgages in america four of the leading mortgage counselors investors to trade organizations have come together and formed a partnership to help more americans keep their homes these leaders recognize that by working together coordinating and scaling up their activities will be able to work toward the the common goal to help more homeowners their partnership called hope now has put together an aggressive plan to reach more homeowners and to help them find a way to stay in their homes and i'm glad to see the american securitization forum representing investors as well as servicers is joining this alliance recognizing that mortgage investors also have an interest in expanding the reach of mortgage counselors to prevent foreclosures wherever possible this coalition has a lot of work to do i applaud them of running toward the challenge i'm pleased that in my discussions with members of congress on this initiative that i've heard bipartisan support i also help to see this alliance grow although the services here represent sixty percent of mortgages outstanding we need greater participation if we're going to get  those that need help as quickly as possible others have good reason to join us in this alliance because minimizing foreclosures benefit leaders and investors as well as homeowners thank you all for what you're doing and keep up the effort i know you're working to develop standardized metrics to track your progress and effectiveness in reaching in helping homeowners i'm also convinced that only by working together do we have any chance of being as successful as we need to be a unified strategy a better integration will mean homeowners get better help with their mortgages servicers get better response when they reach out to people and our communities will see fewer foreclosures let me be very clear i'm not announcing we have solved this problem what we're announcing is a necessary step toward a very important objective we all have a lot more work to do and we at treasury look forward to working with this group with our colleagues at hud and elsewhere in the t and with congress as we continue to confront this challenge the alliance members standing here with us today will give you more detail on their plans but first let me turn the microphone to secretary jackson and let me put in a plug for his agency as we all know that earlier a troubled borrower reaches out to explore financial options the more likely he or she will be able to find an affordable mortgage thank you and good morning it's not every day you get in to us when the secretary of treasury i do need some more money though i am pleased really to be here with secretary paulson for this announcement of hope alliance several weeks ago as hank say that the president and i and he made an announcement of security but we also met with the industry we asked the new initiatives to help struggling homeowners today we see one they excite this is exciting and will be beneficial to many homeowners in this country so i want to congratulate allowance and i mean that sincerely this is timely appropriate the target is important it is a pall full and sensible action for addressing the crisis of the housing market this alliance work and the best interest of all parties the american people will be the beneficiary of everything that occurs today so will the mortgage industry to so with thousands of homeowners on the brink of foreclosure we all know that homeownership is a part of the american economy homeownership builds equity make americans economics situation much stronger provides a foundation for international economic leadership which we've seen over the years but housing works in cycles most people do not understand that after a startling historical boom in homeownership from two thousand to two thousand and six the recent mortgage correction has been severe often difficult for new homeowners particular some with the sub prime loan to increase the support for housing counseling and believe me housing counseling is very important because it's been very innovative with new products and services we are pleased very pleased that the treasury department has an interest in working with us we've been doing this for seventy four years but it's taken hank paulson and myself to do what the president has asked us to do to correct the problem that we face today we must stress that without this allowance things would be much difficult to to accomplish in fact last week because we think that housing counseling is so important at this point we have forty three million dollars in new grants to housing counselors around the country so i applaud the industry today for stepping up to the plate what's more important now is that the base is a load the home plate i'm not sure we need a home run but if we get a good double a single k ninety six the nays are two hundred twelve the motion is not adopted the question is on passage of the bill all those in favor say aye all those opposed no the ayes have it  electronic devices is a five minute vote