i believe listed as excuse to his mr white and joining us later is mr ricky okama we have for our administration the director of parks and recreation  good afternoon and we have also a representative from managing directors office going to tom waldo it afternoon my thoughts and we have for our of our staff our legislative attorney there good afternoon before we begin i'd like to let everybody know that if you'd like to testify please sign up at the lobby once you go to the podium you'll have to three minutes to testify when the red light goes on you should see set that at that time please state your name and or organization in which you represent we're going to all we have us as a community and as church comprehend what has been going on and what will be happening with the ai s with windy entities and found it was totally totally different i'm so glad that they came and helped us because they felt on the air and almost sabotaging transparent for the community and again we're here to support the project i really believe again i've said this before that  other individuals helping i think more with their commitment to this project again we say thank you to indy and tanya because when it came to the church  became really important when these friends went up they were there or matt they came in just like what's going on but it was through the help of tanya and wendy of talking to the other four where you guys gave us the cues and aids and it was just spot on so again thank you shared that culture monitoring and his colleague tanya and so i went to nih saw what they'd done and it's really really interesting to see  the process of archaeology and i had the chance to shadow katie and tanya on their works and it was awesome turn to our district offices and hahn offices or anyone wh  offices or anyone wishing to testify ok thank you later ladies very much at this time member without any objections i'd like to close public testimony no no actually thank you public testimony is not close members turning to our first item on today's agenda e forty three receipt of the following county communications fifteen dash two thirty eight from the council chair relating to the matters of the restoration of the island and hina correspondence dated november twenty five two thousand and fifteen from may it from the mayor relating to fencing on the eco system restoration project the committee will receive a presentation from mr paul klee a ph d a relating to the professional restoration standards and restoration of the island and the movie he pond and we will discuss this matter on the floor we may also go into executive session if needed members at this time the council has touched touched on the examination of the island and the upon restoration project which has been underway for over a dozen years on the island on the one acre island now buried under them banded baseball field at  third rule from eight hundred thirty seven to eight hundred forty five it is also the burial site of the several hoeing royals other properties was banned in the early one thousand nine hundred six and the ponds were filled with the cor hawaii state list of historical sites and in one nine hundred ninety seven it was added to the national register of historical places on december first two thousand the county council approved by resolution resolution zero zero dash one seven one and zero zero dash one seven to the ground to the license and lease to the nonprofit friends a move to occupy the county real property located at the corner of front street  and place in la hina on january second two thousand and two the county granted to number one elease for thirty five years over a parcel of approximately two acres for rent of one dollar per year and number two a license for twenty years over a parcel of approximately two point seven acres for rent for one dollar per year the lease requires that the friends to use the property sole to restore and preserve the move and the ponds and at our meeting on september fifteenth two thousand and fifteen our committee heard a presentation from the nonprofit about the restoration efforts on under under item two concerning the parking concessions on the property at that meeting the subsequent and other subsequent meetings this committee heard concerns from the public and from members about the long delay in completing the restoration projects i've brought this item for or today so that we can learn from the restoration professionals what the standards are for restoration projects and how those standards have been applied to the internationally recognized restoration projects we also will explore how these standards can be applied to the restoration project we will start off with a presentation by d paul christian kluger mr cleaver is the anthropologist from bishop museum who rediscovered the royal place his team discovered the integrity of the site as well as preserving and protecting the layers apart fill filled with place over the site in early the early twentieth century realizing its unique preservation he wrote the successful application to nominate the site to the national and state  places thus increasing its protected status under federal law dr clear received his graduate education at university of hawaii minoa and began his career as an anthropologist at fisher museum he went on to is that better much ok aloha thank you very much for allowing me the opportunity to speak to you i realize that we're at a turning point with this site and  i think there are some big picture items i think that the council wants to see right now as you know where does this site fit in with sort of the world heritage situation so i tried my best to really give you two parts basically what the international standards that i'm familiar with and sort of the american standards of restoration and then some specifics update about the site itself before as well because it was kind of a moveable palace in the sense that people were moving around much more specifically it was the royal palace and private residence of a king come in as the  third in one nine hundred sixteen and really tell the fifty's there were various episodes of filling the site to create a county park so basically international standards for historic preservation are usually in many many places done at the national level and usually w very visible high profile political position a minister of culture of level of degree of sophistication and in these countries cultural heritage is considered a strong component of their own national identity and therefore a national resource it's something to be proud of and of course attracts tourists and visitors and all kinds of things  in these cases where you have a national control the artifacts are almost always the property of the state and curated by state employees often in conjunction with national universities so you have at all levels ideally a high level of professionalism and higher education is an intricate component of projects that are historical resources for the state  these standards have ideals to preserve portions of the site for interpretation in the future and as technology advances so very rarely do you see a complete restoration of any particular site you always want to keep really the bulk of it in some sort of deep seated preservation for the future and future generations maintain and this one particular site there are several entities that have kind of a peaceful partnership i suppose over the last few hundred years  the orthodox church has a chunk of responsibilities and so on and they all somehow manage to work together to keep the place open and to keep it restored ok another good example i think is the roman forum and here you have at least two thousand years maybe twenty five hundred years of history that's exposed you know most of its marbled but again you have this constant problem whenever it rains things appear you have to deal with it and as you can see just in this spot a graph you have many layers of habitation you have the early republic you have the imperial period you see  romanesque period buildings and the renaissance and you have to decide how to focus on your resources for to include all of these particular periods  celtic religious site became a roman temple when sundanese the martyr became associated with it there were some early christian churches several episodes of christian churches and it also became the first gothic church and you know the national holy place for the for the the burial place for the kings of france so you can see where i'm leading here  again a very difficult management situation because you want to be able to show at least examples of all of those layers of habitation so to speak and still maintain you know a religious  it's still an active church it's a very holy place for those that revere the kings of france of course it was kind of trashed during the revolution but you know that they've managed to  tibet was occupied in one thousand nine hundred fifty s by the people's republic of china but the people's republic of china has put a lot of money millions and millions of dollars into restoration of this very very large place and of course that comes with sort of a political price in a sense some of the benefits of state sponsored invite state i mean in a nation national sponsored restorations there's no confusion as to the ownership of the artifacts or historic price properties they belong to the nation and so you have very active eminent domain artifacts tend to represent a can be used to represent the genius of a particular nature nation state serving as an agency to maintain pride in historical achievements of the state  increase national loyalty and this concept of ethos one thing that's really beneficial of course is the long term institutional stability of state agencies directly benefits the preservation and maintenance of these historic sites and their artifacts such stability provides for the development of a professional career staff in historic preservation and the highest standard of academic competence and education at the university level so again it's it's not the kind of a private sector there we're dealing with first and foremost these nations that have this sort of  preservation ideals it's very expensive extremely expensive and historic preservation often becomes a large component of national budgets and that requires greater general taxation some countries do this through hotel taxes there are valued added tax or through income tax and france france and italy are examples here italy is having a problem because there is so much in rome  it is really really drawing down the national budget so it's something the laws don't let you walk away from these historic sites as as easily so as you can imagine innovation and entrepreneurs entrepreneurial inspiration is perhaps suppressed because the private sector is not necessarily brought in and in the worst case cite historic site interpretation and collections can become a clued it with political match nations of the state and result in denying people's access to the site or even the destruction of the site if it didn't doesn't fit the particular political situation and of course we look at to tell a tarion states and they have done exactly that china is an example of the old soviet union more recently isis's destruction of the city of palm myra which didn't fit their you know their concept of iconoclast stick can be a problem definitely the american standards are really quite a bit different most sites and artifacts from those sites or are not state supported unless it they are found on on federal land  or state land in some cases so it places the burden on state and local governments and non government organizations to to find these sites excavate them and preserve characteristic of restoration in in the united states the benefits of course you have a reduction in taxpayer burden and you have a certain competition  because of the vendors having to be and you know regulators having to assess those vendors tends to lower overall costs so you have  entrepreneurial incentives and really diverse funding are paternity because you have corporations foundations the private sector for various reasons sometimes like to be involved in projects that make them look good so you have that opportunity and another very important thing in the united states system is that you have an increase in potential or potential for a diversity of interpretation and the way that  historic preservation laws read indigent indigenous peoples native native hawaiians in particular and american tribes often lead projects restoration projects and they tend to be grassroots focus but there are there are numerous grants available at state and federal level for that sort of very appropriate type of interpretation some of the liabilities you do have a potential for long delays due to increased compliance requirements sense you have to license members of the in the public sector and in cultur resource management you have to have councils to you know sort of regulate the the firms that are involved in historical property interpretation historic properties and  collections often remain in private hands and this is kind of a problem when you have a historic site but it's on private land you're not necessarily going to get the artifacts into the state museum this can be a problem and even the state and c m might be  a private situation like we have in hawaii you tend to have property boundary conflicts because of this concept of private property in the reluctance of governments to to enact eminent domain you have the burn of funding placed on non government organizations again through individual corporate spawn dacian government grants and in earned income these are all sources of revenue that restoration attempts need to do ok going to particularly as i think many of you know but just as a review most of the property that we're talking about is held in trust by the county of maui under nec executive order it is crown land ceded lands of course to the state and then to the county and then the southern part of the site went through them a hell a really came from larger than the current boundaries of a park and includes areas of at command where he keep our salvation army the development north of mcquinn near st and as such it's essential that the community builds bridges to these various and it teaches you and your neighbors all how to pretty much be you know on board and supporting the project because  bigger this is a unique place legitimise station for the hawaiian kingdom it's not the only place but it's what was chosen by kamehameha the first him to settle with his wife poor lani to have children that would be legitimate to rule the entire kingdom you must remember that as a religious site it's much older of course and it tends to defy classification and so unique site and this is one of the questions that all the archaeologists and historians working on this will try to answer it has been a cultural project from day one as a residence of king kamehameha the third it was the seat of the hawaiian government through a critical consolidation period in the development of a constitutional government so it's a direct ancestor of the county system and the state system of white particular is continuing we have at least three occupational areas  full and there's probably more but this is sort of where we're getting that right now we have the money from the sixteenth century to the nineteenth century in this is the the seat of the maui kingdom we haven't been able to prove holly complex and included several houses on the island itself and those houses were very close to a coral block tomb for the royal family this on in the southern part of the site late nineteenth century to early twentieth century residence on the southern portion of the island belonging to the shah family and we have actually a photograph of of the houses there so you know technically it's not glamorous necessarily but it's part of the interpretive background and  you know so we really any sort of restoration should not just show one particular period or the other but really a multiple of habitation periods we've been discussing you know really the crown lands this was all through the hell a so there are areas to the crown properties and they are interested in this property and of course members of the shah family who resided on  suggests that now i think we're getting into an idea that most of the surface of the island continues to be preserved with the grace of the overburden fell that created the park  we might want to show small segments that show these particular features but i don't think anyone wants to now completely excavate the so called living surface of mid nineteenth century one thing  extremely expensive another thing we don't know how preserved the entire living surface from that era would be so this is something that we have to proceed with very carefully one thing that we can again we this this would cross cut probably all three habitation periods so thanks to the county after twenty three years security fence is now  encompassing most of the site and that means that a plan to maintain a perimeter on a semi permanent basis archaeological excavations can go forward followed by  really permanent exposure of some features that have high integrity such as rock walls water courses etc without the need to cover them they had been covered in the past because we didn't have a fence we didn't have you know twenty four hour security at the site and you know we have you know it's a royal burial site it's extremely important from a security point of view so in my estimation both really ready to be revealed we couldn't do this without the fence so i had the county in the state are being called to pound to provide institutional stability for the long term care and maintenance of the site with the participation of federal cultural and historic preservation agencies in particular the national historic site regulations the national park service and they have substantial grants especially for native hawaiians to go forward so right now an excavation team is in the process of being informed and people really are the foremost experts on the  site in my opinion more corporate and foundation support needs to be brought in in this public private partnership and consideration must be given to staff and can help achieve this sense we're not france or italy or or china and are not doing this from a top down so priorities these again are my opinion i believe that the side of the royal two needs to be sensitive areas significance to native hawaiian peoples of all known burial sites that's my opinion the site of the tomb of houla needs immediate attention it's probable with a high certainty that portions of the island's perimeter wall isn't intact especially all along prince street exposing this would provide certainly a clear sign of progress to the community that things are going forward and again both actions may start immediately without further delay now i wanted to share with you two discoveries i know many of you have seen these are two photographs this one thing when i was when i was doing the ar back in the ninety's it was thorough i went through archives everywhere but i wasn't a hundred percent and we've had some discoveries over the last few years recently that have really changed things and on the left we have the first known photograph of law on the left you can see the perimeter retaining wall a very massive structure perhaps ten courses high of boulders with the old  church in the background and the loco surrounding that area this is an amber type eight hundred fifty one or so the only photograph that i know that was taken during the life of the king the coral blocks were dismantled in eight hundred fifty eight to build the first county courthouse at the site of the fourth in line oh so this is your direct ancestor here on there on the right is ho capital moved to honolulu that served as the seat of of the the royal county of maui and it's very interesting because with a photograph we're able to get an idea of course what it look like and up the floor to any questions that members may have as well as i would like to invite also they'd ministration if you have any questions from mr krueger as well so if you want to start clearly concisely in layman's terms that are easily comprehend it so thank you for that i know your your deep interest and involvement with this project from way before i think many of us even knew it  and in that one of the bullet points dresses cultural progress versus the interest of archaeologists so i was wondering if you could elaborate more on what that sentence means well i i need actually more of a cultural resource management type of archaeological system where archaeologists are tending to focus on the mitigation side of things this is not a mitigation except mitigation i guess against any sort of intrusion by anyone this is a sort of reconnaissance and a restoration and stabilize station so although the rules are the same basically it's a different it's the perspective itself has flipped we're looking at this as a cultur resource that needs to be revealed and not data recovered and put away because it's good it's going to be developed this is the reverse of that and i think this is this is one thing that's caused a certain amount of delay perhaps with the county and all the stakeholders is you know it's it's rarely done it's rarely done in hawaii it's more and more there are preservation movements but again and you know it's it's really brilliant that you bring in a restoration foundation people here because they did start with the missionary houses the structures that you know could be restored this is a little bit more difficult because we're going to have footprints probably features and not full structures so we have to think how far will we take that restoration do we rebuild the buildings or do we leave the footprints or do we not even bother with that because it's so dangerous to expose that so we're all trying to grasp the right approach here and to go forward that answer your question me yeah and thank you i see that in the local to i guess because it's such a unique situation that we're in as you say it's not mitigated of its story to have and it's preserving right and so but thank you for that clarification i just wanted to know what that meant a little more detail cultural versus archaeologists and then let me be here on the next page it's about the particulars continued is what you have here and you move you laid out and i never thought of it this way about the different levels of how do you know the different eras or when what year are we going to look at i mean we all have a different timeline and marjorie discussion is not at all i never really thought of it that way and that you will be i don't know if exposing is the word perimeter wall seems to be a feature that ties all the habitation periods together because that was standing up until nine hundred sixteen as far as we know and and what we don't know is the earlier periods and i look at the peak period but it's per you know perhaps the whole structure is even older than it is some of you might recall that we had some carbon dates that were suspiciously very old like you know a thousand years twelve hundred years old and we need to verify that statistically to make it real we haven't we didn't have the resources to do all the sort of carbon dating that we wanted to do so in might even be older than p e lonny again this will come out as it's excavated and we proceed  you know rather than having a set vision of what it should look like i think we have to be very cautious and proceed based on the information that each increment each subsection that is excavated we make the decision ok very good because you act even mentioned that perimeter wall has priority and you believe that at this point in time it can be it's not the easiest thing to do but in a sense people find segments of alignments that look very much like this wall that we're talking about because they they fit with the maps the super imposed maps so well so we think it's fairly intact and you know you think about a project to to fill an eleven acre pond you not necessarily going to spend all your labor to knock down walls first you're going to fill up to the point where it's covered you know and leave the wall intact there was no need to demolish it by you know having said that we also think that maybe parts of the island could have been scraped into the into the center or into the local itself and that seems to be something to look at because the one nine hundred sixteen island was smaller than the mallee version so the island has shrunk and i don't know if that's a human agency or changing the of the of the pond or we need to find that out ok well thank you and also i guess the of four categories of significance were three criteria of significance which is extraordinarily rare so you have you know individual who is very prominent in national history you have a unique religious sites you have all these sorts of things that make it of the highest level and it is quite possible i don't know if if we want to go there but this is probably a world heritage site in the future as we progress and how big and for that  some funds to recognize around the world you know worldwide heritage it gives extra degree of recognition and i think basically the procedure to have that recognized at that level again is our state's major historic preservation which is the state office of historic preservation they would probably work to make that  it ever involved in this project prior to well there are any continued or them or partner all along the state office of historic preservation partly because of course they  determine compliance in their permitting process but early on you know we we received guidance you know from the local has h p d office  becomes far more significant as far as i think th as well as to line up so i can appreciate when you mentioned earlier that the restoration takes time you know and the first time i heard about before the was through aspect of it and then now you come with the archaeological i guess to confirm his vision or the vision of those that were involved in are involved today so might my question  long or how do you take what segments do you start with so that you can say this is happening this is real there in working on it for over twenty years and then eventually we start bringing and other experts to use to say this is what needs to be done or are what habilis oh well you know we're currently talking about this a lot actually over the last year or so what the timeline could be and of course you know a lot of it depends on resources again we have a at least major stakeholder which is a private not for profit organization that has to raise a lot of money and you don't want to be a but you don't want to go out in as start excavation unless you have a certain war chest because it's very expensive and you know people are highly trained to do this and so they they do have to charge a lot that is that is a big prop problem and has been i think  has incurred a lot of time over the last twenty three years but having said that we also have to have a vision of what it can be and what it can't be and i think we all have this many a wonderful artist that did a wonderful painting of a certain beautiful park with lots of water and holiday and all sorts of things but again if we are going to give respect to all eras of habitation on this island we have to be a little bit more more practical with our vision  i do have some ideas of priority i think that one thing that absolutely has to be done and it's not a really large item is to native as well as state and probably county on something as important as this we pretty much know exactly where that site is now is going to ask and then we don't tend to make it public for obvious  reasons with the security we can be a little bit better with this but i would do that first and i would also start with exposing some known segments of the island perimeter wall with maybe a little area to the water will come back i mean it will fill with water and then it's a matter of maintenance of the wall you know there probably is a certain amount of subsidence that has happened and we will need some  rockwall experts to help us with this but this can also be done and we're talking within a year or so as long as we get our permits when we talk about moving infrastructure then it becomes extremely expensive you know sewer lines and that sort of thing and that's probably later on but these are some small segments that we can start almost immediately since the fence is so same interpretation and some don't you know or so it's it's how you put it all together because as as history tells us it then it's very  the our culture which is the kohain so i can appreciate that so you also mention an excavation t is in process of being farm from people who and carried the knowledge very twenty years twenty three years and during this time also there are other people that have worked on the site we need to pull pool this knowledge and stop reinventing the wheel we pretty much know a lot about the island already and where its boundaries are but we need to get to work we need to keep it keep this group together you know otherwise you and it's quite obvious by by looking at the kind of work that needs to be done it's the coming of together for at and and that would be a first significant that you don't you're not wanting to uncover the whole thing so what kind of degree of uncovering because looking at that picture on the left that kind of appears to be where the current parking lot is taking the picture from there that's that's the corner actually over by salvation army probably ok so corner so that's a that's a huge undertaking to show you to have taken out all that so you were saying just a little bit to expose that wall enough to show that there was a wall there and because also that that the portion that was the copyright well i will we're talking about right now is if the wall is really good we could go the entire perimeter and expose it and then that relates to this cochran's point that i was making that we have several layers of ha this is a feature that could tie it all together and we think that we can we can start doing this you know obviously not in the parking lot immediately or salvation army because they are occupied but in areas that we do have access now and security now we can actually start doing there's there's absolutely no reason except for permitting process i suppose sure and how about how much of the old dig there was a dig done several years whenever a entity is ready to receive the materials from bishop museum we have assurances that they will be returned so this is another aspect of things says we'd like to keep the artifacts right know and have them available for into local interpretation ok and now you bring up another you know we start getting into the whole funding portion yeah bishop museum going to be heavily involved in this or no not at all we sort of offered them an opportunity but you know a long time ago they sort of got out of the cultural resource management  business it was very difficult to i think for them to compete because they have all these professionals on on staff that do not make themselves competitive in the c r m world so they are not particularly interested i think  except as it relates perhaps to command the third if anything we would like to borrow artifacts from them items that the king own nyan own and  site need to be preserved i mean what how much of it would have to be exposed or preserved before it would become a world heritage site well i think that we probably could become one by showing progress right now i think we could apply you know once we resume excavations and and do that sort of thing  know it will show commitment by really all the stakeholders and i think that would be a good point maybe in a year or so to actually make that application i don't know what their standards are like i didn't know something about the national historic sites qualifications but it's not so visual necessarily so this will it is what it is we know what the site served as and it's probably amongst the most significant in all of hawaii so it's a extremely high resource for this for this little place we have that's that's pretty sobering words most significant  all of hawaii and that's i mean it sounds like you like hype but it's it's it's way up there in the street so what you know here's here we're all about the numbers here any ideas on potential annual cost of it least exposing and then preserving well i wouldn't want to give our soul council numbers right now without you know really grinding and crunching it i think that if you you don't have to move infrastructure it's going to be a lot cheaper and if you don't have to completely restore everything it's going to be a lot cheaper i don't think we have a resource that will allow us for any complete restoration because of the what we've learned very recently you know that the island itself seems to be a low compromised and then we have older and newer periods of habitation that have to be under consideration so i would i would think just real ballpark that maybe twenty percent of the island could be excavated and we keep the rest in preservation that's a really high standard again that goes back to my international standards you want to keep up a big chunk of that available for future generations you know they'll have technology where they can just take a cosmic great picture of the island and show all the features you don't have to excavate the problem is we also you know on these we always have to think about preservation because if you don't want to make a mistake and the world has a lot of very bad restorations out there you know china is is of a bad example into that they rebuilt a lot of structures and not necessarily according to this you know their their history not according to the native people is not a complete as in there or pinion and so i guess my concern is that what i want to make sure we are all on the same page since we have the staff from s he should be available today fortunately to answer that question if it is ready to be revealed in the sense that we can start excavations immediately because it was my understanding that we can't into an area is completed by whom ever takes on that responsibility for the island portion with an understanding that the county has taken responsibility to complete the area as for the mako he nia to that contract we what we expect or what we should expect to find in actually in the pond and it's pretty clear to all of us that the island itself has probably been compromised with the process of billing for the creation of the park and so that changes things from our view of the situation in the ninety's so i think that that has required preservation division on my left is tanyalee craig she is with cultural surveys hawaii and actually doing the archaeology work the current project is to identify the outside of the island so it's a limited scope which is why we're hearing that it doesn't apply to the entire project area this is something that we we are going through an archeological inventory survey plan and this is also gone under review by the island burial council so the identification is simply to find the edges of the island not to impact the island and then to withdraw she files the report we have a public comment period i review the report once it is approved then we can go forward and determine what else is required but the report has not come to me yet the survey work is still we're began the work in the parking lot area and were able to remove some of the asphalt and we did positively identify we believe that we positively identified the  has been installed we are looking to complete the next step in the last work which is to identify the permit of the island as well as positively hopefully  identify the rock rock wall that served as the boundary for a holding pond on the front street side which so that segment of work we're looking to complete it in the park area so now that the fencing has gone up and it is fairly protected we can proceed with that and we are actually looking to begin that work sometime next department i have a follow up question for morgan i just want to make sure that you know as the project manager and you know for the county that i have a clear understanding of the requirements for the project and my understanding from before you were involved was that there was another issue that was required for the area which we are calling because our areas only came up to the perimeter wall that there was another areas that you guys were requiring for the island that needs to be submitted before any excavation on the island can occur separate from the more if they're areas you know with a scope whatever the scope of the project is whatever it is that everybody has decided they want to do is it's still an ongoing process i think the reason why we're the cause the problem the project was separated when we engage with the army corps with the just having the army corps portion with the  there's another portion of the project area which is the most and it's been treated separately in terms of the archaeological requirements yes so i guess i wanted to make sure that the council members understood that although we the army corps and the county is completing our archeological inventory survey requirements for the eco system restoration project that is in my understanding talking say should be separate from if the pool island restoration wanted to occur on a different path than that it could but there was this inventory survey that needs to be completed on the island yes that's correct so any time that we encounter that perimeter you know basically it's to mark it on on the map and say ok we found it here and then and then back fill one of the concerns  and this goes back to the army corps and one of the current surnames was initially there was a proposal to put together a ten meter buffer around the island as depicted in the historic maps the my head i know the my son and just the different different surveys that have occurred over the years taking the more generous or or larger representation of the island and then putting a ten meter buffer around that and monitoring the restoration of the wetland c h p came back and said they were not comfortable with that and recommended that it's an effort be made to positively identify the perimeter of the island and so that current work that recommendation is what led us to what we are currently doing today and so far this year and so the scope of the work that we are doing is is simply to identify the perimeter of the island in the event that the army corps is looking to proceed that ten meter buffer recommended buffer would be based on something that has been ground truth rather than looking at maps from the eighteen hundreds in the one thousand hundreds and trying to bring it into our current space yeah so it's just kind of a little ninety's it's a matter of scale in the sense we didn't do ground proofing and did come down on this printer wall in four test  image if you will of the perimeter wall so the prior work was not entirely based on super imposition i'm out it was actually ground test so i just wanted to make a clarification as a marker and i guess my follow up question then actually is in line with your scene you come to it you identify it but you're back feeling it because what i heard from the presentation from dr cleaver is i mean he number one was the security the actual tomb site on the island and also possibly the frontage along fr street section of that wall to i guess expose and keep visible and if what you're doing would allow that to occur right now or no is there a  recovery plan which would include exactly what you're talking about the approach that they're going to take with respect to the recommendations and all the evidence discovered on whether it be  preservation in place or remove all for exhibition or so forth and so on but the various types of artifacts or features needs to be addressed in this data recovery plan and i think that's where referring and when we put this document called a draft archeological inventory survey out for public comment we will we intend to hold a public meeting as well as update the c r c and then with that information will  ok with that they can start to develop their data recovery plan addressing different various features and the timing of the priorities which includes the time frames the other thing we don't mind that i would like to just touch upon because i did have to come to a concert to seek the approval is that temporary fencing and i know there was a discussion about it being temporary in nature and what that meant and  i want to make it clear that the request was for a temporary fencing and it was in our intention to leave it there as the permits to permanent way to secure or what ever it is that you know determined to be whether featured or excavated or preserved in place so until we have this cut public comment period to determine the significance of some of the features i'm a little bit uncomfortable seeing the excavation can occur without read a king at how secure this fence is because we have had it since our installation just a few weeks ago a couple creatures so i think another review by the interested parties to make sure that we before we start actually excavating the are doing data recovery that we are comfortable with the means of security there were relying on currently which is the temporary fencing so i'm if there's ideas you guys have been the future we can develop cost estimates for whatever it is you guys want to move forward we thank you i was of a little bit disturbing about the fence situation you know if we decided to put in approach the iron rod iron fence that's going to be real expensive at this point and i don't know if it's going to be in the same as the the temporary fence but saying all of that how about if we just would it be cheaper just to hire a guard you know during the evenings nites hours to make sure that that fence is and being cut into or or breached in any way to protect the sites because the other question i would have for mr lee craig   square because in the ground and even if if when we do identify the perimeter of the island and we have open holes and it's not quite as secure as we would like it to be there is that also extended risk with having open excavations and potential for looting  and things like that so it is general practice for us to always back fill in order for for safety reasons as well as as protective reasons with that said  our grid or our excavation grid is set up on using the previous bishop museum excavation grid and their controls so  these very large excavations we're trying to limit our impact while still being able to carry out what we need to do and so that's that's one of the reasons as well  so in the future or using the previous controls that have been set up during bishop museums great work i would hope that it wouldn't be as problematic to re i def i the areas that so that's not very big also yeah you'd want to cover it up so people you won't be able to see it but as far as the fencing or where you're anticipating the wrought iron fence versus the area that we're looking for to enclose with an iron fence is approximately ten by twenty feet so it's a much smaller area and much doable i sort of costed you know potential iron fencing out  i guess what the question is is is that will the permitting process allow us to construct over this site to do something that increases preservation or do we  you know this is a discussion of course with this h p t which is our main advocate for preservation center so this is a discussion that needs to needs to happen but i just wanted to give you an idea of the scope of the iron fences yeah that's smaller much much smaller and one one one more question is really sure if that's the case that deserves a much smaller friends for securing that preservation how are you going to say you mean once you start doing the actual work in the room because again as honestly greg has pointed out most of us are used to back filling a side in going on and doing something else and in this point it's flipped we are exposing things and we have to have the expertise from restoration professionals how to stabilize and to keep the area open and we probably also need some advice from security people how to prove it to lower the liability that people will fall in and that sort of thing these issues have our we're cognizant of these issues but they have not been  you know gone to the point of detail but again the project is perhaps not to reveal all the features as i had mentioned but certainly some features will hopefully be  revealed as we get an idea and a clearer picture of of the perimeter and what some of these other features are and then we'll be able to determine you know with public input of course  what is likely to be visible and i think that's a really important point to keep in mind because we have a very unique situation as far as most sites go we have had passive preservation by the fact of the creation of the park and now we're going from this very secure situation to one where there's questions like this and we're all been very careful the process are you with friends and who are now or what is what is the status well it's a very good question and thank you for the opportunity to us that i am i am at right passionate commitment to making this project go forward in the most professional and reasonable length of time i would like to see it done in my lifetime so i have been helping in kind of a pro bono case because of perhaps what i know about this place so at this point i'm not under any employment consideration or any contract and i can say pretty much it seems as though so there really needs to have a a vision or at least they are some priorities or a list of goals that need to be done on the excavation side of it you've got so many moving parts and it just seems like there's there's not this master plan that that we have is how a leader team captain on the excavation team putting it together  getting some extra additional funding i really think we should as a committee search looking at some kind of funding nexus to try to encourage mr cleaver to stay here  and help out on this project and if that means making an amendment to the concession which is the next item to make that  happen i think that's a move in the right direction of course f or m which i would see them as being still in charge of the cultural aspect and working with a doctor clear who would then be in charge of the excavation or at least our personal contact someone that could explain things to this committee on a more i guess technical basis and have that type of priorities listed and we could probably follow through with those things and the other question i had was the you mentioned excavation team is it's currently being put together so what happened in the last twenty three years was there no trying to get the players in position to do the data recovery plan as outlined in anticipated by as h p d and again it involves people that have vast knowledge of the whole project over the last twenty three years these people have been made available by the fact they've retired recently like myself and have some time but still have some capacity i suppose to do things so so that you know those sorts of resources are great i think again  build upon the work that's already been done because of course going back to the very beginning it's been counting money and and we want to be as efficient as possible and as a full generation has gone by we want to be able to bring in of course the younger people to educate as well as to use their skills to do much of the work but also maintain the knowledge that we have sort of the senior level so we're trying to form a team that will be a working team to go forward with the compliance issue of course and  hopefully the funding will be there to support that thank you mr dr conquer your i think of it put it what's important is the well or at least what was refreshing in my mind was the fact that you mentioned these priorities and that pot it could be possible within a year or one year some of these priorities could be met i haven't seen that since i've been on the council in dealing with this subject matter for somebody to actually come forward and say look these are the priorities and we could probably meet them within a year or a year so that will stay thank you for that giving at least in my mind some some light at the end of the tunnel the other aspect that i would most likely be concerned about is and i'm going to segue that into this you mention and it is this project should inspire confidence and right now as i sit here as the chair i'm not inspired with what i have seen in documents and what i have requested from f l and their executive officer have not inspired in fact at this point and very reserved to to even go for with funding and even recommended to mr  so i think you mean dr clear and inspiring at least giving me hope that there is a chance or possibility that this thing could come together and so i feel better  you giving this presentation and you being here and in and i would hope that my members and then the committee would agree with me that somehow this has to happen and it's on our watch and this is our watch and we've got to be able to work together with all entities for you that the state and some of this committee has to put it together and bring everyone on this floor and have this kind of dialogue and it's going to have to happen that way because it seems like that dialogue is not happy happening outside of this chamber so far more than willing to keep having these meetings so that we can the state by county and effort can come together and collaborate on the air so there could be transparency right there as well but something has to be done with leadership excavation side so that being said dr kleber had mentioned that part of this whole process is dealing with neighbors and the neighbors that that this project is  with is a line of restoration and they have a lot of experience in what they do and it could possibly be a another party or stake on the other  party that would have stayed in this type of project so we have few morson that is here that could talk about a little bit about what they're doing in the restoration and what she could possibly add as the line a restoration director of the heiner restoration foundation i'm really not in a position to talk about the trends i'm you know the whole project today i can tell you what a restoration does ok it's it's very different because we deal with buildings as and then we were very lucky to receive as a gift the whole baldwin home complex so that includes the whole corner of the concern in front street there's three buildings on that site although they used to be four and then the pioneer mill actually helped fund that restoration so that was kind of our basis and we got a really good start from that and then pioneer mill general business type of structure at liner restoration foundation so we were very secure on our our mission and what we need to do but we also look very building was up for sale or else i have made it was an upper sale but we offered to buy it and for eighteen thousand dollars the property was for sale and the building was actually a pile of rubble because got condominiums behind it and the entire rock structure has fallen down however we had the drawings of the original building and what we did was we eighteen it cost eighteen thousand but that was very lot of money for us at the time so we worked with an architect and we gave him a lease for twenty years of the building at no cost and he was his what he was obligated to do was rebuild the building according to those drawings are called and so he did that and after that he had his office there and he rented it out and after twenty years it reverted back to the heiner restoration foundation so what we have now twenty years later and i should also mention that when this deal was put together the executive director  time wasn't even going to be there in twenty years that there's not like a requirement like it's didn't necessarily happen on his watch but so after twenty years the building completely restored building comes back to  line restoration and we rented out as office office space so liner restoration now has you know source of income business in this case it's only has a wonderful office property the town has a computer and you know a new be stored building and it's a win win for everybody so that those are the kind of projects we try to do and we've just completed  another project this was one of my projects on prison street and it was a plantation home that was going to be torn down because the family didn't need a home and they wanted to keep the property so you're going to tear it down we went there to see if we could collect door knobs and window frames and stuff like that turns out we inherited the house but it wasn't it wasn't we didn't buy the house we just got a twenty four year lease on the house we re stored the house with our own money for about one hundred  twenty thousand dollars to restore the house we put in our local family that's living there now they pay us rent and when all the money that we put into the house comes back to us which is about six years we'll turn into  a educational center for plantation life for children and perhaps for visitors or for perhaps for reunions for high school we haven't quite figured that out yet but and then at the end of twenty four years the family can either just take it back and they'll have a house or they can we extend our lease and we can keep doing our program they can sell it and we have the first right to buy it or someone else can buy it but at the end of the day it totally works for us it works for the community and then we have funds to go on to the next project so that's sort of how we approach things is try to  perspective they're one of the few that really think outside the box in generating revenue and i wanted to you know kind of maybe pick her up pick their brains and see if there are other ways that we can  parks department and then the current project that i'm happy to say is almost ready to start the harbor for a project that's also a grant through the parks department to the average just about how much does that come up to the o e d grants that was about forty five thousand but this this coming year we're not doing plantation days anymore so it's just going to be twenty for twenty sixteen  the harvard friend grant for that project is phase one is seven hundred fifty thousand seven hundred fifty thousand so there's no we don't charge overhead for our rate out of any of these i was just you know  it and like you said your concentration is three storey buildings and you know you are able to get private fund be able to raise money and sustain it and at the same time county you also get any kind of state grants to we have in the past there's nothing really major we did get a major grant from the national marine sanctuary foundation which we used to really redo the entire inside of our all in a courthouse which is actually a state property executive order to the county so that was again where we got the funding and we put it right into a public building and none of that funding went to us as an organization but but it was such a great project we were more than happy to tell you work well i should point out too that our parking lot is one of our major sources of funds and that wasn't planned way back when they got their property in their sixty's because it wouldn't have been feasible back then but it's one of those things that kind of evolved so we're always just looking at you know it's very important to be if you're a nonprofit you start to make money if you want to keep doing your mission think you think how much do you make off of your parking lot if i congress thank you i have just some follow ups and i want to just first say that i completely completely concur with your sentiments on your opening comments in regards to perhaps you know be here for his services and expertise for this county and possibly looking at the concession and seeing some kind of restriction on those monies for that particular type of service or something so i know that is up for discussion so i just want to see i'm really excited to hear you state that and that i'm on board for us to work through and see where that can lead and also  understanding the importance of neighbors and having everyone involved and you mention and so neighbor be in line restoration foundation and their involvement and thank you few for all the work you do for and as you stated you know you've created this model for others to follow suit and be sustainable and you know to find yourselves in and also garner levy you know leverage the monies that you make and the money that we give you another entities do so thank you for that but new neighbors meaning immediate too because i think in a lot of our discussion and even through test thinking and you know tanyalee grigg to be there on the ground with everyone and pretty much you know the eating by the hand on the site and  explaining first how what is going on and you know salvation army great fare you have actual homeowners on the corner on shot they want to be involved they want to understand what's happening you have of course  economy so you know these are your direct neighbors abiding this project that is so significant and all this and we really to see it going but i'll tell you it sure will go a lot smoother a lot easier and in collaboration and support and be supportive if all these people are  that conversation so each year i love the fact that you said if it takes us all sitting here on this floor for face to face talking then so be it because i truly believe that is what needs to occur and it has not and i think just that simple act of doing a little walk around say inspection of everyone at the table i mean moved mountains let me tell you so i want to think yes department  i was just curious though in regards to our end of this might go to maybe director college but it's in regards to parks county property overall and notice scene you know we went there to see the new fencing but i do recall seeing a removal of some old fence seam there and how how does that process work because i'm looking at county property  how does that occur you know what i guess there's a thing of disposal of county property and there's a certain process you need to go through and you know we have our our director here on the floor  said they had some fencing i guess to give or something so i just was following up because i know it's truly county property and not any personal property of interest or charity i wouldn't cover i was sort of was given or directed from the answers and of course leads to more questions but and i believe we do have i am specifically about fencing and i pulled the contract to put into mr obama's committee also so he's willing to pull that off so i think that's maybe were more in depth sounds something like executive session yes we may i do have the name it sounds like there's a property of the county property theft or something like that condo so i don't want to yeah and that's and that's fine with any of that i just wanted to know what the process of why don't we i will draft a letter to parks to get more details and then from there if there needs to be an executive session that well dies this particular item he will go in specifically for that not you know approved you know fishley of doing so but i'm not going to get into any of that on the floor ok all right well that's fine sure harvey you want to take care of that ok but thank you ok thank you so members without any film or couch that already you know the question i have and it may be at a later time for this thing things that you know in working on this when i was in the administration yes there are some things that they were going to do like move the parking lot and all that those are plans that probably have to happen after the e i a s is all done so maybe we can talk about that later because i don't know if it were up to that step right where we were you to move the parking lot and the problem with moving the parking lot was that they'd have to acquire potentially the salvation army or go right next to it so there are some logistical problems there i don't know if they've worked it was out yet and i curious does anyone on the panel can speak on any off without her answer that question i can only speak to what has been identified within the parking lot and if and that we we do believe that we found the perimeter the southern perimeter of the island within the area that is now the parking lot if ultimately the vision is to expose the entire perimeter then indeed that the parking lot would have to be moved at some point in time to be able to accomplish that that goal and that was way back where it was the whole thing was going to be uncovered and we start as much as possible but now with all the new findings i can see how maybe you don't have to expose everything and still might be able to keep because there's no reason i'm asking is because the parking lot is should be their journey the main form of income causeway being the entrance to the island from front street way which makes it their need and that's why we're being hesitant to see what the plans are until the air yes is finalized the field  investigations and some consultation with bt is completed to draw any conclusions on whether the parking lot needs to be removed or not and this also goes to the island also impacting the property and whether that needs to take place in what and in what priority in the project that needs to occur i've already had discussions discussion the finalization of when it needs they need to relocate if we move forward with restoring the portion of the island affecting their property they realize that it's like they expect to move in the long term but in the near term is their relocation necessary in the you know in the real new near term and so we're just working on finding appropriate sites for them to relocate to getting those sites to them for  consideration and just keeping a dialogue with the separation army i think is important to understand how a relocation can impact also their operations and their ability to serve the community and so that's what we initiated last month with the mayor still similar to the parking lot and how it affects the impact of the revenue for this project and i think we would like to wait until tiny a complete area yes and we can maybe more definitive conclusions about the project you know like i said we found the causeway which we thought was an under the parking lot and actually closer to the pump station and now it's under the parking  under the parking lot it also probably goes into salvation army considerably and then turns and heads north we need to think of that within the context of how much of the island is going to be exposed what our vision is for the for the end run and it's a cost benefit kind of ratio the southern portion i e that parking lot again was not part of crown land that was the wild comma plans that went to the shah family so that is that is that later nineteenth century early twentieth century portion which may be not considered quite as important or significant as the royal palace and the tomb are so that's a discussion that we really need to make again i agree after the review process is completed in that and comes back to what is cochrane was saying that's like what era are we going to be focusing on you know and that's the you know under the sounds as though the structures or the restoration portion of it that's underneath the parking lot is in a different era as opposed to others sections yes in fact we we really don't know but he lived on the north part of the island close to the tomb we know on the basis of oral history of well documented history so  it's a big question we don't know as much about the southern portion at all it's not yet so it sounds as though there's a lot of you know priorities that need to be sorted out i think this is a good starting point spend i believe that we're going to need at least an hour or an hour and a half and we've gone through some really major powers this this week and so i don't want to do this to you guys i will it without objection to further this last item because they were going to need to go into executive session for this for this last item and i would rather that we do this we were all fresh and i know work on empty hands from yesterday and you have  couch i would just like to you know see if there's any way we can schedule it so that that happens first because the folks that have been here sitting here are c p a's and they're actually in the middle of tax season they leave last a half a day so if we can make sure that their time is a little less i agree i agree but and i i didn't know that that miss blossom was going to bring the tax first item to go her ok ok thank you thank you but i will schedule it on the first portion of the agenda next time around because we need to go into executive session on this one ok so without  budget too but i will try to make adjustments in my master agenda to accommodate so that at least we can get this to whatever needs to be discussed be done prior to budget because i think what we need