emphasize i do not believe based on the facts he is a practicing jew or was not in the soviet union was not in the ukraine because he didn't have exposure to what i he does state and it's in the record on the court that he exposed himself more to the practice of judaism in the united states words available but ethnically he is jewish through his mother which is in judaism how you trace the religion and there is as is suggested a problem with judaism in the former soviet union in the ukraine which is now the successor in that region to the soviet union i know was during the darkest russia which was the predecessor of the soviet union rule in the same area the primary question becomes what type of action by a government or this case non government organization because of the persecution arising after the fall of the soviet union  not talking about his military experience because that government doesn't exist anymore i'm talking about from one nine hundred ninety one the end of the summer until the time he lived what type of persecution is necessary for purposes of asylum and it raises a very interesting question and almost all cases dealing with persecution of a religious nature there some kind of physical confrontation either a  questioning my clients was not arrested during the time period we're talking about there's no record of them haven't been beaten there's records of threats and the threats to qualify it are not directly from the governments they're from organizations for lack of a better phrase i'll say their gangs which the government does not appear to be able to control even the immigration judge judge bank on page eleven of his decision states of friends and police could not help so i'm with you except i think the real issue is what kind of behavior amounts to persecution as compared to discrimination that's a tough line and why in this case do we have persecution as compared with discrimination  of the situation of persecution because the indications are from the braves and there is some in the haitian government brief that the government of ukraine is capable of controlling both the country i'm not sure of that's accurate factually but for purposes of this court let me presume it is all there is also indications that in terms of the government's response to complaints by people of jewish  government takes no action and that's specifically as laid out in a case previously decided by the ninth circuit some years ago was the one nine hundred ninety eight case in court in the eyes my case i'm very familiar with that but still the question is whether this is discrimination that the government's not doing anything about or persecution the you're abstractions that are hard to hard to fill up but why in your view was did the behavior that you're talking about amount to persecution contrary and the united states ukraine whatever country as you rely upon the government for purposes of respecting your civil liberties your rights when the government withholds that protection is that discrimination or just persecution i guess yet to use the word gang organized criminal activity involving the theft of their first witness to join with the bad news is if if i'm a mafia guy and i threaten to kill you because you're about to become an informant that doesn't fit into any of the protect the categories government won't provide protection where there's a theft it doesn't mean that's not persecution because it doesn't relate to any have any of the enumerated categories congress was very clear that we're going to protect you if you fall into these groups and simply being a victim of they were i wrote the opinion and the government took no action to protect anybody even after the of the threats were related to the ethnicity that's the difference between carlene in this case that and in this case the threats aren't related to the ethnicity the in great detail in the transfer of the judge's statements on his the judge's decision on page eleven merely states that the crimes and police could not help them in are actually said with regards to whether he had reported the criminal action to the police just just for your knowledge though the immigration judge and the parties agreed that's a declaration would serve as the basis for the testimony on at all with regard to all of his events or his history in the ukraine so that means that t war between russian and ukrainian gangs and they would not spare me so basically to get out of the ukraine as soon as possible so he doesn't actually say that he went to the police folk with the friends he was in the p the country reports that are in the record don't specifically comment with regard to criminal activity and the willingness of the ukrainian government to address claims of jubilation persons of jewish ethnicity it does say at page two thirteen of the record with regard to religious minorities that there is going to individual and societal faces but it but it also goes on to say that the central persecution in that he was able to you can see through the education get a higher degree and in fact a painted job and later he says that he wasn't able to get the promotion that he wanted but then he went on and opened his own personal business so it appears that even if the claims of economic discrimination don't rise to the level restitution so basically i am not and why should i have any more questions about that particular event written on page one hundred he doesn't really say that that's the reason where else may we either find direct evidence or we may we infer that the reason they're not protecting i mean is that he's jewish are the best evidence that was presented at the trial was  rampant it's on control and he says the government does nothing to control the state department takes a different posture and says there's a problem in substances and there's a problem but the government is not part of the problem is an interesting that's part of the problem you know i semitism the problem but again by law we're constrained to trying to figure out whether this is discrimination or persecution and you know we can really get into the persecution side is the show behavior that