communications from the audience for items that are not listed on the agenda they can come forward at this time unfinished business and table items there are none new business letter a site plan review to enclose an existing drive through banking area on the east side of the building with an a in approximately five hundred fifty square foot office space addition  forty east eighth street spaced source is the applicant for the applicant like to come forward it's three eighteen west thirty fifth street the building that's been in the bank i don't know how you remember it but it's been four or five different banks we purchased it around the first the year by deed restrictions were no longer allowed to use it as a bank so we're converting it into an office space  requesting is to take the drive through that was there as a drive through and close that into office space we intend to match the building that's there now we can still get the same brick and course it same stone so we plan to enclose that so we can do that it'll be an owner occupied building this can be owned by spar own occupied by space force as well as quality carwash they're going to move their headquarters in there you may or may not know they're franchising all over the country known expand beyond that so that's going to be their great thank you and any questions or comments from commission members i have a question but not really about this just because we're so late here today simple majority or or majority of the just real quickly this was brought to the attention of the downtown development authority last week during their regular monthly meeting and per the a c three district ordinance  whenever there is anything a proposed a building expansion so forth in the c three district the d d a is allowed to a comment and provide their recommendations to the planning commission they did review it and they wholeheartedly a recommend approval of this project to the commission and staff is a recommending that after the public hearing you also approve it with one condition noted per comments from the i will open the public hearing at this time for this item and you would like to come forward and i may know i will close the public letter b i plan review for a storage building at three forty nine west fifteenth street dk construction is the applicant is the applicant here basically we want to replace a building that's there take your name i'm sorry lewis alexander dk construction and we're proposing to remove the existing building that's kind of the latitude in ice or the neighborhood and replace it with  feet wider than what's existing you know i've talked to the billion specter within the zones and so forth and we plan to put fencing around the building which is not there now and shrubbery t i'm just a general conduct the first three items are generally something that's done at the staff level but because of some material level he's in the ordnance as the written one of the trade zone change one because you've got residential across the street and one because about three feet of the thank you for all right thank you all right any questions or comments before i do a public hearing all right public hearing is open and item b if you'd like to speak to this item you can come forward all right looks good thank you for coming down just looking to build a cold storage building something in your name and no john benda you're changing you're building a new building on the site you know we tore down water at it ok you know when we split the lot we had to tear down any questions from commission members commons you know flag your sky direction the airports  i'm going to say one thing about letter before we move on to d c for the public hearing i just want you to start your wheels turning and thinking about ways that you can recommend for us and how you would like the short term rentals to be regulated if you have any comments on that particularly that would be very helpful we know how everyone thinks that they are wonderful and we have some wonderful packets and examples and pictures of the short term rentals in holland so if you could start thinking about ways to to regulate them that would be great letter d into a review for garage and accessory developing unit at ninety seven east twenty third street joshua banner is the  applicant my name's josh banner nine hundred twenty third street so i had sort of dreaming up this extra facility in the back of my backyard to do some cars and some extra storage and living space for my family back in december and i came up with an over elaborate plan tried to communicate that with my neighbors had one drawing and vetted that through this is tim had his e p a hearing and tabled that at that point and then i went back to the drawing board trying to respond to my neighbor's concern better understanding the ordinances and from what i understand at this point i don't i'm not asking for any variations as why i'm here not z and i'm just trying to see if this passes in full review and the biggest question as i looked at the city planners report is the height of the first floor building is ten twelve feet maximum i believe i want to just make sure that he knows that it's an average high to twelve feet so in order for me to do a second story a t u and and to fill up a pitch roof that looks like my house that is the same pitch on that it's going to put that height up a lot higher my original drawing i tried to keep it lower profile at seventeen so now we're point putting up at a twenty one point five feet so i'm trying to do two things you know follow the  and make it look like historic neighborhood like my my house the only other question then is the fact that the accessory unit applications don't specify a maximum or a minimum size so i've just been trying to be playful with that and i guess that's the question we bring before use is this with in what you think is appropriate for my neighborhood and with that is the question is what is the definition of the neighborhood is this just the house within five hundred feet of my proper or is this are we thinking about excess retooling and second floor units across the center and because there's there's i believe five or six buildings that look like what i'm trying to do here ok can you speak to the project on top and so that that top floor is a large twenty by twenty room that stays within the one third maximum of my primary residence footprint that's part of the ordinance  order to maximize some storage space in the first floor we kicked out behind the the cars on the first floor some extra storage space there and so then we do have some flat roof there was going to use that creatively for a bit of a decking for privacy purposes we added a fence around that all of the larger windows because i know my neighbors are concerned about privacy are facing in my backyard and otherwise they're higher windows and as far as that goes as far as privacy right now in my house i can see pretty directly down our lights are so narrow i can already see pretty well into my neighbors if they didn't have their blinds closed so i'm but with that said i'm trying to keep it as modest as i can on that  the three windows that i've proposed are pretty high so it's not it's more for sunlight rather than for gazing through right great and can you speak to any landscaping that you would have to remove there's no landscaping that i have to remove there's some invasive species trees that my neighbors and i've asked them about in writing you know what they want to keep their where they want to go there's one that i would have to take out this innovation of species it's right behind where that would be so the footprint of it would be thirty by twenty thirty or twenty or anything else that you would like to add right now ok any questions or comments from commission members you currently have a garage on that promise no no there's nothing right now that is crazy this house is designed and i think one hundred thirty two in the garage was originally in the basement of the house with the out believe it or not the garage was in the basement so previous owner had walled up that and use for this was for your family your family in hosting originally in my first design i had hoped to think of this is a grandmother suite and i really wanted the the a t u to be on the first floor and still have flex base on the second floor and after i you know got my head wrapped around the ordinances for some reason the ordinance is you can do the eighty on the second floor with an accessory in the first floor but technically you can't flip it i was was going maybe going to be here pushing the other design it was in with aging grandparents they're not going to want to take the stairs so i've ditched the overall idea that maybe one of the grandparents might be staying here long term for a month or more stays especially when they probably could hike that now that that staircase but in five years we're just trying to think about the future so right now it's mostly for family space and for a long long term stays for  s and we don't plan to put it on for for regular rental at this point but it's nice to know that if we wanted to do that for an eighty you rental unit we could at some point so super nannies or whatnot was your original desire to get a garage on your property yeah i mean i could come back here and just say assisted raj but i figure if it doesn't hurt let's ask and see and my first drawing i did you know i didn't realize it was so elaborate i just said hey this is what i'd love to do it was a shipping container design with flat roofs really modern and everybody said yeah that's that's not what we want to do and i think i probably could have pushed that through but i'm tired and my wife's but i have a baby and so i just drew this up on my computer  three hundred dollars on the other draft and just trying to see it does this how does this communicate to the city and to my neighbors see what they think can and will thank you very much less anyone else has any questions marc anything you want to add yes so this request is in front of you tonight for residential info review and as we discussed at the at area of the city that needs a residential infill review that review has to be completed prior to them taking any action and edu so so when it comes to info reviews typically staff does these ok with this one because it does it does have a little bit of history and the first rendition that mr banner ran through staff did deny that because there were some some ordinance things going on and those can be pretty difficult for staff to say that that info review was oral or what he was proposing was compatible with the neighborhood and just compatible with their ordinances when he was in trying to get a variance with the zoning board of appeals ok so it just kind of on the face of it there were some issues so that was denied and that kind of trigger mr bana reloading and coming here with the with the second one in in a different approach staff was fairly confident that we were going to receive some comments from his neighbors because the first time around we did receive comments and there is in the study session two there is a rub with the way that our ordinance is is currently crafted and so staff intice a page in that discussion will come up so all of which to say is we decided i decided to bring this to you for your approval or your action instead of just going the staff route ok so just jumping to the rub so to say in the that is in our  yes on average so the peak could actually be higher than that ok so what we're dealing here with average is so bad that is permitted ok in those areas of the city that need an infill review in this falls into it by just a couple blocks but needless to say mr banta has to go through the infill review we then go through that process so we start looking at ok how is this request  compatible more how could it be viewed as compatible with other detached accessory buildings in the neighborhood ok and then we've had some discussion about what is the neighborhood ok and certainly the planning commission you can you can spread the net wide if you want to or you can keep it within three hundred feet of the people that are noticed you could define that the way that you'd want to do staffs way that we really kind of approach this when we're doing the staff reviews is is certainly looking at the immediately adjacent properties those are first and foremost relevant and then just kind of looking you know  at the property say within two or three hundred feet and getting our accused as to how propose be compatible based on that so that's so we're really kind of looking at the smaller neighborhood area  immediately ok so in looking at this particular proposal we did note there are some you know immediately adjacent to mr banner's property there's a two star garage and it's rather large  dog garage is detached it's in the backyard it would be immediately adjacent to this proposed accessory dwelling you know but you know it is apparently meets the maximum twelve feet on average height ok and just taking a look around all the accessory buildings in the neighborhood but you know that i saw met that requirement so you kind of have that form of mass seen then and so that really is kind of the norm so to say in looking at so so here comes the this proposal that you know it's looking to be bigger than that which is allowed by the ordinance but here we got the the infill review that has to come into play also so all of which to say is we do have a five review standards as noted in the staff report staff is very comfortable saying that this application meets four of those standards but i think that it's really kind of questionable whether mr banner meets the one standard that has to deal with height scale in proportion and especially when you're applying it to the context in applying it to the neighborhood and trying to determine is this compatible with what is going on in the neighborhood ok and so that's that's my kind of take on it as is is planning commission you you certainly can decide whatever way you can interpret this that yes this does meet the you know the the infill review maybe it doesn't meet the infill route you can make whatever determination you want full well knowing that there might be some kind of precedent setting at least when it comes to staff there might be some precedents set but i think kind of the main rub here is kind of you know kind of decide or maybe you don't want to decide and send it back for further review this this whole thing what is taking place here building inspector that people would want to know what's going on with this new one so i would really strongly urge you to read notices we can we can do that in a take that it may not need to fit it may not meet the fifteen day requirement but we can certainly send out a notice people know right thank you at this time i will open the public hearing you will have five minutes and to speak on this item and i believe right do you see lights underneath here it will turn to snow cyclist now we have a timer up here and it tells you when you have a minute left looks like color changes on the light so anyway it's not it's not  public hearing is open to item d if you'd like to come forward please state your name and address and you have five minutes good evening my name is diane hoekstra this is my husband david we live at ninety one east twenty third street we are the neighbors that mr boehner who talked about with the garage next to the banners my concern with this are several but my first concern is the size and height of this structure it is the height of our home it is the square footage of several of the homes in our neighborhood and this structure would be sitting on a forty four foot lot behind two more homes as much as holland is doing in the community to plymouth as is a long sixteenth street and other streets close to ours and we're trying to keep this community we've lived in this house for thirty seven years we've seen a lot of stuff go on and the way the city has turned out and with the way it's being brought into the future and for lack of better terms cleaned up i would really hate to see a structure like this dominating somebodies backyard my other concern is mr banner told us in a letter that he plans on require having a recording studio and recorded music up there i do understand that he does that now he does do that news basement but there are cinder blocks to kind create driveways and dirt fill in between these two homes when this is twenty three feet in the air and it is a dry wall wood and insulation structure how much of that is going to be heard and now does that become a commercial business because it's now a recording studio i do understand their concern for their elderly we've done the same thing ourselves with dealing with family i lost my job over something like that i am the sole caretaker of a gentleman who's had parkinson's and is on disability for fifteen years this is going to be in our backyard i'm concerned with if they at some point as mr banner suggested that maybe this would be a rental facility we put in addition on our home so that we could stay there so that he could be comfortable in a one story area and now we're going to be concerned about who is living in our backyard her backyard the other concern i had was is this going to be ok for any ambulance or fire department or anything that needs to get back in there my garage literally is going to be sitting three feet from there so i have a concern with them being able to get in and properly care for something if there isn't an issue or something like that mark just for clarification if there was nothing above the garage the garage with the footprint of the garage and still be allowable correct yes yes so the setbacks and everything are met in this plan that is correct thank anyone else to speak to this item you all are here for e all right i will close the public hearing at this time comments questions from commission mem that a garage that size would be allowed if it was only twelve foot tall we're at a point that we've got an ordinance on the books that may need some looking at i'm presuming or maybe need some discussion i mean i must have missed that meeting so that being said i i think it the building matches the house if that was something that we're looking at as an infill review requirement it is a to be conservative when i'm making judgements on things or to be around another seventy five years or one hundred years i do think we should look at the ordinance though i have basically three three areas on what is a neighborhood i generally go with the noticing area that seems to be reasonable from my perspective the other concern i get about these sort of thing is what i would call creep you allow this one the next guy comes and goes oh look that one's down there are twenty two feet and i want  average so they can be significantly higher next time than the twenty one feet and we've got twenty one feet is now a baseline back to so exact constant evolving of that something that we  that we do need to take a look at the ordinance again i come up with something that maybe gives us the opportunity to introduce things that are somewhat bigger than a one stall for twelve his garage but does it become a nother house in the backyard which is effectively what we're from a mass point of view what we're doing here and that's a little bit of concern for me going forward so i tend to be maybe perhaps overly cautious because i kind of see where things have wound up going over the years as presented here and the fact that it very much follows the eighteen ordinance that this commission approved not very long ago you know i'm inclined to height but i think one of the things that we had to at least spoke to when we originally designed this was that we wanted to maintain a height he'd be a very general height when these were constructed but maybe i'm the floor i think it all came together somewhat perfectly but i think we need to look at it as you would make it more better and then perhaps but for the as the ordinance characteristics now is it different from the rest of the neighborhood yes in all first things traditionally are i'm inclined to you know move this forward because i think a to use as an but i think we're i like to convey the idea and i did and this is why i support the eighty you ordinance the first places like the idea of people being able to use their property in a way that is conducive to their growth of their family or the growth of their own units  you know i'm i'm jealous that you're doing this because i'd like to do the same with mine unfortunately i cannot so that said i think i'd like to see this before comments i guess i will say something i have lived in areas that have had apartments like this over top of the garage and i had a friend who lived in an apartment over a garage and she loved it because it was the perfect size for her and i can see these popping up more around holland as we have seen one of them is across the street from me and has been quiet has been  not an issue at all for our neighborhood i think that this is actually very much matches the home and i like seeing the different depth in glove it too but yeah thanks for coming in we do need to get one more thing sure you know i was probably the vocal non supporter of the eighty you and you know i'm out throw this out there that let's take the next study session and i will make a motion to table this to our next regular meeting a table in motion table however if you're suggesting that we come up with the solution to an ordinance we have to create that solution that has to go to the city council members reading well i think it and then we're how many months down the road three three minimum i mean on that opposing about i just want to make sure of their stance that's what i just i just want to get the nation a little bit more grass and a little more conversation and if we have a little bit better handle if we were to look at this ordinance as far as a mass and height i'm not saying we're going to change but and that's why i would on schedule it to the next meeting table so mark could put a little study session or more discussion on the his second i support so we are supporting names and we can give her our eyes  all right moving on to letter he proposed tax amendments to section thirty nine dash for all five doubt one special exceptions to approve owner occupied short term rentals planning commission if the applicant really is coming back to the planning commission per year per a referral from the city council city council i guess it was a couple months ago i asked that  planning commission take a look again at the short term rental ordinance and right now the ordinance regulates and only allows short term rentals to occur in owner occupied  dwelling units that are zoned residential ok there has been a push and we have lots of people here and in the audience though pride speaking to it there's been a push to to have that change or to consider changing that to allow non owner occupied short term rentals to occur and residentially zoned property so i could get into how just briefly mentioned it was just last august that the planning commission went through this and you spent quite a bit of time last spring the last summer coming up with draft ordinance language and at that time planning commission forward to city council  an ordinance that would allow short term rentals the way they are regulated right now and additional way you are supportive of having short term rentals and commercially zoned property as well  residential property so that is where we are right now so we had the city attorney here at the last meeting kind of bringing in planning commission up to speed with you  know because there's been some state legislation that is being a deliberated so we talked about that and you all had some just general questions of the city attorney in regards to the organ so it was recommended  that you hold a public hearing this evening your vote to do that staff is recommending that after the public hearing you take all of the comments under advisement and hold  study session and study session at your next regular meeting on his job july eleventh i'm twisting my tongue here and ultimately decide what you want to do with this at that time so that's right thank you mark at this time i will open the public hearing and as i said before you have five minutes in the light of change color when you have a minute left and i have a little better and we have a little battery  if you would come forward state your name and address my name is elaine paige i own the property at five thirty two central avenue it was my personal residence for about four or five years sat empty for a while then we rented it for a year to a friend of ours who was going through a divorce and then at that time i decided to do a little research and start doing some short term rental i registered it with the city had it inspected i pay my annual dues i appreciate that you're giving us an opportunity to come up with some kind of plan that hopefully works for all of us like i said i just received a letter from the city that i have to have my furnace inspected so i keep up on everything i mean i go down there i do the landscaping i do have about five of my neighbors here so they can speak on my behalf if they feel up to it so because they have been witness i mean they've they've witnessed the type of people that have stayed in the home and  all of us the best thing that's come out of this whole thing as that we've developed a network of short term vacation rental hopefully property owners and we're pretty tight knit group so we keep tabs on each other if somebody comes to me and needs somebody like you know a place to rent for thirty days and i can't contact them so we have a really good network i think we're all in agreement that we'd be willing to abide by like compliance to the hotel c v t dues in association abide i mean mine's already registered as a long term rental so and again it was an oversight on my part i didn't realize that i could rent for less than thirty days so i did i do want to give an opportunity to have my neighbors speak if they want i can have them speak you may do whatever you like but what you persuasive you know we understand that everything's wonderful we need to figure out how to regulate you and we're giving you this opportunity so use write your thoughts are on regulating and it would have been helpful had we known that ahead of time because we could have gotten together our group and actually came up with a plan for you which we still can and hopefully be able to present that to you but i do want to i mean a lot of it was you guys have said where we have these homes and people are coming to holiday party people do not come to holland to party i'm sorry i think we're all in agreement so and so i'm going to give an opportunity to let my neighbor speak just because they have seen the type of people we don't get calls from the cops i have one neighbor here that just said she got to witness an adult male peeing on a fence across the street and that's at a long term rental and she doesn't have those property that problem with my home so thank you for the opportunity and i'm sure you'll hear more thank you anyone may come up and speak during the public hearing hello my name is bar casper i live at five thirty six inch ave i happen to be the neighbor immediately next to elaine's hopefully short term rental  i can actually tell you there's never been a bad experience in the years that she has done that i have met wonderful people from all over the place and it has been an opportunity for them to learn what works and how and i've had questions from people about you know how does this recycling program that you have worked were not familiar with this and they've taken that back to their cities and other cool things like that when people come here and they want to stay in the short term vacation type rental is because they want to experience what it's like to live in h a hotel but they want to experience what it's like cook their own meals go down at the farmer's market people that have special dietary needs that they can eat at restaurants they need to be able to have a kitchen they need to be able to go to the grocery store and get what they need so i would i would really strongly encourage you to allow this process to continue if you're looking at how you can best regulate it what i want every house in the neighborhood to be a vacation until absolutely not and i fine with one absolutely maybe even two would be ok but i think with as much as you can break the city into you know you have these areas were certain things are allowed certain things are certain we can come up with a way that you can say well only so many can be allowed within this geographic area maybe it's something along the lines of the way liquor licenses are regulated you only have so many that are doled out for the city maybe there's something like that maybe there's a special feel that they pay because they are in a different category maybe they have different types of inspections or something like that but i just have to believe that this is something that can be done it's been a beautiful experience for me i think a lot of the other people here would say the same thing so i just would hate to see it die a slow death right now thank you mark what district are they allowed in right now less than thirty days so they are allowed in any residential zone district as low as long as they are owner occupied by my name is paul decwriter and we own  so we have one of our street so i can speak to that end and then as an owner of one they can speak to that as well so i spun and shared a lot of stories about just my experiences with our short term and with they've had some great tenants in that we've got to meet and they've joined in our bite parades and i've explained under a lot of stories but it sounds like you're more interested in here and how to regulate it so my thoughts is just to regulate the number of them i think if we stick to like twenty five years a max going into this we've had a leaven units initially  i don't think the ordinance had kept out a lot i don't think we're going to get a lot more than that but just have a number like twenty five it's not that many a concern considering how many houses we have in holland and i think the other big concern is  just houses wouldn't be very nice and i think that's already been reviewed by gas so i would propose that you'd have you in an annual inspection just like we do for hotels and down even right there in this foulest let's look at your view you've got to have at least a three star review from whatever listing sites you have that we're leaving it up to all the gas that come through and you're making sure if you can at least a three star power we should be right in that hotel and be a very attainable measure and that's a good way to a one westerton street i think one thing that's very important marvin you brought up regulation is to think about all businesses and is there anything more regulating with this business in particularly that we're not regulating in other businesses so long term rentals for example do we limit home how many of those are in the neighborhood currently although it's residential  e well before the state right now is the determination that short term rent is residential use as well so it's something to consider when you're thinking about regulating is whether it's  not doesn't even need to be regulated for one and then two if you feel like there is a occurrence where great percentage of the year that the properties can become this kind of business it's going to be detrimental to the neighborhoods then at that point then you could put an ordinance in that says this percentage of these homes so if i'm understanding your statement earlier the the board is pretty much on par with approving with an appropriate way to regulate so i wouldn't i would say that to do any of you remain unconvinced that they're a good thing for the city we are answering questions right now and this is just coming ok because then this is for you if you're undetermined ok this is this is what i prepared to speak to you about who has heard the story book the red slippers the wicked witch the talking scarecrow the tin man in the cowardly lion and of course the yellow brick road the emerald city and finally the wizard of oz it's a story filled with memorable characters in quotable quotes total i have a feeling we're not in kansas anymore there's no place like home i'll get you my pretty and your little dog to the man who wrote the wizard of oz was lyman frank bomb those who live in castle part of the neighborhood within like town township recognize mr obama as a local local celebrity not because mr bomb lived in castle park but rather because mr bomb said in his own words castle park was the inspiration for the emerald city in the wizard of oz but what was mr bomb doing in castle park he was short term renting and non owner occupied because i bring up this example to emphasize two points first short term renting benefits communities in numerous ways by allowing a community to welcome outsiders and in turn be blessed by their involvement the community we all have benefited in some way by those who welcomed occasions into our community and second short term renting is nothing new or dangerous the wizard of oz was published in the year one thousand nine hundred castle park is just as much a neighborhood today as it was in mr bombs time the neighborhood hasn't been overtaken by hordes of greedy investors or every home turned into a short term hotel quite the contrary actually it has thrived and continues to by allowing visitors to come and experience the beauty of their community and just to some way the same way as mr bonded over century ago and aren't we glad today over a century later when the one minute thank you i'm finishing up here over a century later that castle park didn't have a policy against non owner occupied vacation there may still have been dorothy the tornado munchkin city and the evil witch but missing would have been the emerald city and the wizard so the scarecrow would never have had a brain nor the tin man a heart nor the line his courage and don't forget dorothy would never made it home you thank you very much thank you no clapping please i have to say quiet next person can come up hi my name's colleen levy kind i live and sixteen west twenty second street directly behind elaine's home on central avenue and then i have a a long term rental across the street i'm the one maintained the yard is always maintained by contrast the house across the street is where the partying is happening cars every half hour come and go and beer going in and out and i suspect more than just that i've watched in the last six months that house just go from looking pretty decent to really looking like a wreck the short term rental is not the issue for me thank you thank you kerry childer son fifteen forty two read them holland i do not live in the city let it be noted but i love the city one of the things that i'm glad you brought that marvin can we get the address because here's the point you are going to regulate the long term rentals and you it at the same time you would also regulate in the same manner in the same way short terminals and the importance of that is this they will regulate themselves better than the city will have to do one of your concerns has to be what is the cost of an inspector to run regulation and maintain the city we have an overrun of short terms well the beauty of the answer to that question is commerce will regulate no one will want to stay in a rundown rent in fact all of these business owners who are short term rental owners and want to have people come and stay are going to draw them here because of the beauty in the maintenance of their property it's very easy to find a short term rental in this town is probably with all due respect to residents the nicest property on the block with that said when it comes to the internal operations of the material of the building a general annual inspection should be required code to safety code to occupancy levels those are also required by all your long term rentals and they should be enforced and they should be enforced for short term as well and finally  safe with a home and public department of safety would let you know looking at statistics how many calls of they've been to the properties just as you have with your long term runt yes finally we love the city that's why you all work and volunteer and spend time here and we want to see it prosper and the only way it's going to prosper is with the continued reputation that it is a city that cares about its appearance and its character the short term model community has proved that their properties and their character drives their commerce i think we can all learn from that and i would highly recommend that you look for regulations that will continue to enforce that and allow this business to prosper thank you good evening ken freestone eight forty five east eighth street and i was it long or a short term renter rental property for about five years and we actually got in about three months after air b n b started to that for several years had people from all over the world france germany japan south america on and on so lots of great experiences in the people that came and yours were there we never had one problem in all the years we were there we did do a year of long term rental and had lots of problems so the property that look as good as it did when we had short term rental so going on what kerry said as far as the end you will rentals making sure if it's the rental codes and it's up to standards notices to all the neighbors let them help regulate that also so everyone knows where that property is if there are problems give them the mechanisms to report that the places the people in the numbers to call or contact things like car parking limits i understand that we had a very large driveway area that accommodate a lot of vehicles which so it wasn't a problem for what we had but i understand when it's in more of a urban residential area it is that is a problem so i think that putting some of those limitations on there and asking people they might have to park elsewhere and carpool in or something to keep those limitations so that people aren't parking on the grass the same things  discussions about for long term rentals for years no signage no additional signage to show that it is any kind of a rental property and also no fireworks that's that's a regulation we had one  i should back up and say we had one problem and it was with friends of ours who rented it and they did shut off fireworks the neighborhood and the neighbors complained and those are friends of ours otherwise it was always no fireworks this is a neighborhood and him in respect to that  it resulted in better conditions our home was in better shape than even when we lived there we took it or better care of it because again the reviews and evaluations were online for everyone to see and i would encourage staff and  commission members to read those reviews read those evaluations if there's a problem with it then there should be some way to contact them and say here's some problems that we're hearing and also are there other regulations cities and towns ships in the area are enforcing that we should be considering i'm sure i know you've looked at a number of those but as anything unique or situations that they've had that they've had to change the regulation so i think there's a lot of examples out there but it does result in better conditions and again is great for the economy the amount that the people spent that where there is phenomenal they ate it all local restaurants that every almost every one of them went to the farmers markets in summer time and we we found to be very beneficial for our neighbors for our neighborhood for the city for our own economy it was it was excellent so thank  their short term rentals in fact we are my my parents in law have stayed there a couple of times and that's convenient and so i just want to say that it was i don't i don't really have real strong opinions one way or the other about short term rentals but i don't see them being disadvantageous thank you my name is linda developer and i'm a two sixty eight and royalty ave we're looking at the question of who regulates short term rentals and what are the potential ways that it can be properly regulated next door to my house is a house that's been owned by the same family for more than forty years and it's always been a long term rental so about six people lived there i don't think there have been any improvements to the house in forty years unless it was required by the city codes so it's important when the city comes out with their inspections because this owner and we are friends and the last time he was inspected he had about eight hundred things he needed to take care of and he was complaining about that so he keeps up with the city codes but he's what i and he's a nice person and i'm not going to give you his name because i'm not criticizing what's going on next door but he's a code only owner he's a landowner code only we follow the codes we meet the laws of the city and nothing that's going on here is illegal as far as we're concerned we're meeting in need we house six people holla needs that kind of rental property and so i have no complaint but our question is who regulates this well when my next door neighbor has algae on the side of his siding just green scum all over the side of his siding his tenants aren't going to regulate him because they're afraid of being told their leases expiring the only people who could regulate him would be the city but when i'm renting to an arab in beer i'm going to hear about it right away i'm going to hear from the very first person who sees algae on the side of my house because my tenants are going to regulate me or they will just not come back again if the house next door has unsightly conditions or something ugly if their back porch is filled with furniture wall to war in florida ceiling that may not be illegal but it will not be accepted by air b n b renters to look that way if their garage door is broken which it is that's not illegal or maybe it is but if their graduates broke in which it is that's not illegal but it's not going to be to an area meeting the standard you won't will you be running very long if your garage door please speak into the microphone air b n b hosts will you be in business very long if your garage door is broken in your back porch is full of furniture i don't think so excuse me i'm sorry you're talking to us excuse me o i'm sorry i apologize you're talking to i'm sorry i apologize i do apologize and apologize please my point is that the regulation is being done by a process that does not cost the city of holland anything you don't have to pay an inspector to come out and expect every single time my place that an air b n b host has a g my husband and i did rent long term in earlier when we own this home we had problems with that because a year goes by and you don't see what the the damage that has gone gone on you may have a no smoking regulation in your lease but if they've broken that you won't know it until you gain control of the property and can tell when you walk in that every curtain and every carpet and every piece of upholstery stinks like smoke and you'll have thousands invested in trying to get rid of that one maybe if that were to happen in an air be and be a rental you would know it within four or five days by your cleaning person that comes in to take care of the cleaning and notices that you need to address that and then that tenet would get a bad review from you and there would be an a magic automatic internal correction system in the way that this works so that i become informed when something's wrong and the tenants have a reason to try to reason to behave because they need a bat they need a good review from me as well in order to continue with your b and b so i'd like to suggest that the rules should be consistent there is no way that you can go and check every house first elsewhere that there is algae on the side and you can't do that for every house in holland every few weeks but you need to look for ways to encourage the standards that air b n b in general needs to have if you're going to be successful with it thank you thank you regulate the ones that want to start coming in but the ones that are already in and doing such a terrific job i think you should leave it alone because they sure seem to know what they're doing and i thank you even if they had a long term i don't think you'd get better people there they're doing terrific job thank you crater one for nine west thirty seventh street i guess we all we came to this meeting not knowing you were wanting a recommendation from us but if i think on the spot these self regulate i don't know how many years all of the rentals have been being rented on b r b o or air b n b but i think at the most we've had twelve so the fear of it over running hasn't happened we don't see it happening in the future  if you want to do and a number of us have a set number that's fine but you're asking us for a recommendation my recommendation would be to allow it to self regulate as it has been doing for many years thank you thank you we came here year ago we're one of the three that has been licensed and we hope you don't approve or non owner occupied because we've got a heyday we don't want any more competition no seriously look around you all of the you know there are tons and tons of non owner occupied being offered in all the surrounding townships and zealand and i really am not real sure why you think you have to regulate them like many have said and like we have seen very clearly they do self regulate the whole business of of reviews and of putting pictures out showing your place of dealing with customers every day believe me it does self regulate thank you thank  announce on this my name is kelly fickle i live it i live in grand haven my property is to go on was thirteenth street just to speak a little to regulation because ever since this has happened i've spent a lot of time reading about a lot of cities and what they've been doing one of the things i've noted is the cities that start regulating is when they still have a really large density of these properties and so it's really not until they get to ten twenty percent of the housing stock that usually this regulation starts to kick in even if we had a hundred it be way less than one percent of our housing stock i do not see this becoming any kind of problem and i haven't seen any data offered as far as why it would be a problem if there were even one hundred or more of these in the city of holland are surrounding communities like grand haven saugatuck south haven they have a much higher density than i see even though they're smaller towns they'll have two hundred fifty or more of these operating and the city is after review have made the determination that they are beneficial for their city and have kept them going so we have t d to people from grand haven from zaga from south haven and how it's been beneficial i'm actually traveling to lansing tomorrow for a home sharing panel in lansing with elaine and they are proposing legislation that it's a property right as a residential property and so that would mean that it couldn't be regulated as far as how many but really until you've reached a density that really high cities have not seen a problem with this so if you look at the data on the university of new orleans to a great study on this for new orleans they had first band non owner occupied rentals they changed their mind after looking at the data once they saw the research that was done they did research in various communities nashville for instance lots of lots of ones that have determined that it's beneficial for the community and these communities that have studied it have allowed it so that would be my recommendation where all for the permits i think just when you have to apply for a permit to pay a fee and be regulated that also does a limitation you've seen i think it's three non owner occupied who have applied for licenses i've been asked before do i think there would be a lot in holland no i don't because we aren't a community that is right on lake michigan but i do think it would be good for us if there were more and i encourage that so that is a thank you enjoy that but i have a family so i guess i'm here to ask you to consider encouraging it because it would i think not having that option here would maybe limit holland as a destination for which again i stay there i like it but sometimes you don't want to be in the same location as you know the proprietor so i guess i'm just appear to encourage you to allow it to grow because it is the way we travel and i think we're you know a good example of i think there's many families like us that like to travel that way so trying to limit our family to come to a place  i think it's kind of a mistake so anyway that's like saying thank you mean long day hi my name is elizabeth box and i live at thirty five west twenty second street which is about half a block from elaine page's place and i've lived there for about three decades so i've seen the neighborhood i've seen the changes i walk my dog every day going past the lanes house so i kept track of the changes that she's made since she's moved in and all the nice things that she's done to the place and i think you're also familiar with probably some of the other residences in the area that aren't so nice where people have lived for a long period of time so i'm agreeing with most of the people that are said saying here as far as the short term i have not seen any problems with any of that i've seen more problems with the longer term i've seen the destruction of some of the homes with people staying in for a longer period of times short term they've been really nice with the lanes house she has a cute little porch with some little rocking chairs on it and i walk by with my dog in the morning and we'll have a little chit chat  if they just how long residence and let them know about farmer's market and other things like that and they're they just can feel really at home bed and breakfast about a block away so you've got a lot of that kind of going on as well as the long term and long term places as has been said have not been kept up generally as well as short term and i know for our family when we used to rant on a weekly basis just like some of these people have said you got to keep the place up you got to go and you clean it you check it when it's short term like that when it's long term you don't usually get that opportunity and lot of times a lot of things can happen to the property thank you for your time thank you yesterday in fact so i got up at three o'clock in the morning this morning to fly to be here at this meeting and i wasn't planning on speaking but i just wanted to say something that really struck me so i'm  open and willing and wanting to to work with the city of holland in the people of holland to craft something that makes sense for everybody and have a really vested interest in continuing to make this a really wonderful town so i've you know i've been coming here since i was a little guy i grew up in chicago my family grew up in chicago and my mom's roots go my mom so the family's roots go back here one hundred ten years so i think the point there is you know i think the same concerns that some of you have on the quality level and not letting you know this just turn into blocks and blocks and blocks of vacation homes i believe that's shared with with the folks that have spoken today and certainly it's shared with our family as well so thanks for your time and we really appreciate you having a speak and hopefully keeping an open mind and keeping a dialogue going between everyone thank you thank you wanted people to kind of speak about regulations but i notice that you know several of the people are also just not really sure they want to let it happen at all so real briefly i've helped kelly with her property i've met a lot of the guests who stayed there they're wonderful it really is a residential use i mean they're just someone living there for a shorter period of time but they're they're here to experience holland and i also our family sells pumpkins at the farmers market and highland residents are wonderful you know we have a lot of people who come every year and buy pumpkins but it is really be the vacationers it's the chicago people who come here to spend money and they do and we make a lot of more money that way i know that when they come to stay at these houses they're here to go downtown to eat at the restaurants and and just really experience the the beautiful city we have here so thank you thank anyone else to speak on this item a lot about the city of holland and what direction it's going and i think that direction would be backwards in the city of holland is really not progressive said he wants to move forward in the direction of tourism and really embracing that's it then i will close the public hearing at this time discussion from commission members so thank you for speaking your mind thank you for participating in in this process and thank you for participating in what i would consider a very strong and thriving economy what we discovered about our neighborhoods in holland in i've been involved in a neighborhood for a very long time and it is a homeowner i think what we want most as home owners is to see our neighborhoods desirable and the  fact that there are i think two twelve last time i checked and i meant i'm looking on line right now at what are listed now and i only have six listed right now instance city of  holland but i think there is a market there at the speak to the dial desirability of our neighborhood one thing i will say and this is what i'm going to talk about a lot during our next of the session because we spoke about it last time this came up  last year is this city created a framework for what we want for our neighborhoods and we all kind of signed on to it when we took these positions we need a neighborhood that neighborhood is attractive it's a gathering place it's convenient it's diverse and it's worth investing into and one of those key elements as part of our neighborhood of choice framework as we call it is a neighborhood of choice we want people to live here we want people to move here is that people know their neighbors and that the each neighborhood has its own identity that comes through its neighbors that's something that i get concerned with and this is where my concerns come in when we have a preponderance of short term rental units and so that's one of the anxiety i have that there are there is not a consistent neighbor in the house next door to the people who are who are owning secondly my bigger concern is the issue affordability in these and what these do to the market i have a friend who is just moving up north  not to the typical vacation city that you would expect but boy in city if you're familiar she's moving from one thousand streets with her husband and two children and they have struggled to find housing and that is a area of up north that is also desirable for multiple reasons as a vacation destination in the winter because of the skiing but also it's close to  like charley boy that is a good summer location so first they had a chance to find what they could afford with furthermore they get a chance to find it so they can get into because the preponderance of rentals up there weeklong rentals because that's where the cash is and that is of all the concerns i have that was possibly the greatest and i think these nice homes that are short term rentals are very nice for the neighborhood they're very nice properties in the the renters are the the property owners have done a great job maintaining but i can do a quick list of the costs the down town renting for fifteen hundred seventy five a week stone cottage was renting for twelve eighty eight a month the historic holland gateway is running for twenty one hundred a month the beautiful immaculate downtown holland home is renting for twenty nine seventy per month and the six bedroom historic downtown mansion is running for ten thousand eight hundred ninety dollars per month this is not affordable housing and when we think through what affordable housing is and what it needs to be that unfortunately is not consistent with the affordability of people who need accessibility into the market  once again we're looking for neighborhoods of choice and we want people to live here and we want people to thrive here and that that that people because it is a diverse people and that means of racial background socioeconomic background and more so when we talk about this our next study session this is what i'll be discussing in addition to all of your comments and what you brought tonight so thank you all for being here and really appreciate your time basis for rental properties we enforce it on owner occupied or other structures on a complaint basis so that is when we talk about the rental thing is something that applies across the board to everybody i wrote that to many years ago and so i just want to clarify that when people talk about what you're being inspected for you're being held to the same standard as the this the other comments section from commission members yes i would say to thank you for coming in really appreciate you thinking that all through and presenting your perspective you know it's it is not an easy issue you don't make decisions based on the next week  try to think in terms of the next seventy years so we know take anything you say lightly we've definitely work on talking about it some more in the next sunday session so thank you thank you for caring about the city and your investment will do our best thank you anyone else communications and petitions scheduling public hearings marc there are not any i don't believe we had any you know ok if you could please have your discussions in the hallway we actually have to finish this meeting up and it's all on video correct yeah it is