client was suspended for approximately fourteen months without notice and without any hearing in other words or honors the current state of the law gave the defendants their warning that  unconstitutional to suspend the student for extended period of time without any notice without any opportunity to be heard without any opportunity to confront avarice witnesses without any opportunity to see the evidence that was gather just factual of the time jane doe was suspended about giving her notice and the opportunity to be heard had she and she correct that is your honor to some extent i would say that when you're looking at whether there is a contract interest the federal courts in this sport have not necessarily strictly looked at state law but have to determine whether there is an expectation of the student under that state law probably a little but i understand that that argument but let me go back to the question i'm that i wanted to ask have a constitutionally protected interest that was violated by certain school procedures that did not provide them either noted notice or opportunity to be heard notice of the charges that were pending i think most notably a couple california intermediate citizens providing that students have a right to confront gabbers witnesses during school discipline or c d s and you would not have that holding if the court did not believe that there is a property or liberty interest at stake what do you do with halt and from the california supreme court that actually expresses skepticism about treating the student university relationship in national terms not paying only for credits from a school or to attend a certain class but with the expectation that they will receive a degree if they play by the rules work hard and do what they're supposed to do and that would be over a length of published the notice that she was suspended wasn't circulated by the universe that wasn't put in the papers you know wasn't  to all the students in the class can you establish stigma in the absence of some kind of expressed publication yes your honor  type of program where you have a very small number of students in a very small number of faculty and especially in a graduate program where you're relying on the recommendation of your faculty advisors in order to get jobs alleged charge they would also know that it was thought to be serious enough that she was put on the banks so to speak for fourteen months that she was not able to participate or program  fourteen months and what if if i think your claim is that she needed the process before the suspension began so how is the school supposed to know i think you also so i think your claim is that she  the process before the suspension began and i think you've also said that a short suspension wouldn't trigger the same concern so how is the school supposed to know before the fact whether they need to give the process or not your honor should know that before you were imposing any kind of lengthy suspension on a student you have to have some kind of process so but when i don't even know if it'll be like the i mean it i think the facts of this case ar particularly strong for you on whether it needed to be selected but there could be circumstances where they don't know if they need d n a testing and it'll take a while or they've got to reach asked or i mean there could be you can imagine lots of kinds of investigations that might not be predictable in advance about how wanna say yes and then judge school day by day i know i might go over on my answer that's ok so if so it's really not i would answer your question which talking about the fact that they really did the investigation fast and then they admit the components to your honor's question i think that the st to answer the last point is i mention the length of and no finding anywhere in the record that our client posed any risk to the community or the safety of any other person that the suspects that was imposed significantly after the fact so can we imagine as i don't understand it after the fact part either because doesn't it i mean you could have a lot of kinds of allegations that would be imposed that would cause a suspension or expulsion of the pows after the fact because it took a little while for someone to complain are i mean here  there i think that took a little bit of time for the students to raise their complaints now i know you think the complaints from frivolous but it's i don't understand why the after the fact really matters given that sometimes it takes impose some kind of suspension on a student you have to give them at least notice an opportunity to be heard now what that notice an opportunity to be heard looks like maybe different than where your final he g and whether it was adequate under the math test it is a question that i think would have to be decided on a case by case basis perhaps but that's not the case in this case there was no hearing whatsoever so there's no opportunity for the university to come here and argue before the court and say well we gave them a land and we gave her a hearing before she was suspended that would satisfy the matthews balancing test it just didn't happen  which has been somewhat disgusted by my colleague here three students form of lodges formal complaint sexual harassment undisputed the plaintiff was notified of the charges you know letter  an interview she was taken out of the classroom as an interim remedy which as we know at least in an employment setting is separate the planet and the victim while you sort it out that's a very common practice and it's a best practice while the facts are being sorted out so i just was exonerated as has been mentioned by the court that determination was  press upon the palace that university in these days in these cases is really between a rock and a hard spot i mean addressing the interests of the victim and addressing the interests of  the of this of the subject and in any one of these cases the investigation is you know too rushed or it took too long that's just the practical reality so that i don't understand how this one is right it seems like st we have to talk about whether california gives a protected property right to students in their home roma and then we can talk about whether allen process matter during an investigation or suspensions and someone should be allowed to have classes or not or how long it would take but i but focusing just on whether there's a property right or not blending the two together i think you would have to convince us that if there is no property right that's knowing how corny and that means that a california school could just arbitrarily suspend or expel anyone they want to without having a better all constitutional problem because there's no protected property right is that really what we should decide we don't accept the reality that this is a quickly complicated evolving area of the law where you universities colleges are struggling to balance the rights of the people involved and this issue of extending gossipers as low as two secondary post secondary education never has never has happened but you don't need to do to reset issue because the qualified immunity issue is clear and in terms of deciding where i think my colleague would like you to go which is let's extend lopez which is relied upon to receive into the post secondary setting  that he was fairly brief here the issue really is is that kind of the last set of rules such that it would provide fair notice is the law settled is the constitutional sounds to this context of the college or on the issue of constructive expulsion which you gave some argument earlier of that there was a so you i would suggest eleven solution you don't need to reach the issue of california state law because under federal law under guard and the plaintiffs allegations and again what asking about arbitrary actions what we want to avoid is were the schools to take away from this court decision in this case that they can act like a star chamber where significant penalties for restrictions can be impose balance considerations of all the students and other obligations no way thank you both and i think at this point the kids shall be submitted and if the court