ok so we're going to call this thursday may twenty third two thousand and thirteen select ward meaning to order six pm six pm is designated six to six o five is designated for public comment scheduling issues and stuff has to leave at seven thirty so will be some of the more important issues like the court order and maybe a few others we may be  yeah they said you can do that is next thursday six pm runnable to everyone at six pm so i just think it's important this issue that the entire board be here to hear comment and to make you know if there's any decisions to be made i just don't feel comfortable with the two of us and south has been here since the on start of this issue so so next there is a work for most order well and what would be involved in forcing the court order would be us hiring then excavator along with other support people too and so we'd like to include her in that discussion and then we don't so need to look at estimates on how costly this would be the soon to be something i'd go send our road crew to do i wouldn't ask them to do that i don't think it's fair it's not of their purview of their job description so that would have to be hired out there would have to be i'm assuming you know we want to have some law enforcement or other things required to have law enforcement we have to check into a lot of things so especially the cost is that from that town that's right we so but again will will discuss this in full detail we'll do that six pm next thursday apologize again for but things come up and we'll go from there so i just think like i said i think it's important to carry here in this discussion director down here in essex rescue i came on last september and i'm trying to get around and meet all the slick boards you guys not to be to put a face with the name and yet i'll let you know that if you ever have any questions concerns issues anything i can help you with about asic rescue i'm the point of contact on the guy feel free i live up at three eighty five pleasant valley a longtime member of the underhill community been here forever and ever i've been  only been the executive director resnick rescue for seven seven eight months now i've been on the squad for the over twenty five years volunteer past so it occurred to me as i as i took this position as executive director i came here from help apartment where i was the state's director of emergency medical services for twenty five years i retired from that position and took took this executive director position that essex rescue forty years but i don't know the we really know each other all that well and so my hope is to come back to periodic we tell you a little more about our organization our operation tell you a little bit more about what's happening with emergency medical care in underhill in particular and to to be able to have that conversation we need to be able to speak kind of the same language we use a lot of terminology in emergency medical services so my hope is that running through kind of a quick presentation will give you a little context of the work that we do so we we work in the context of an emergency medical services system and that you know nice little know is on but you don't what the hell does that really mean is that an ambulance that it's taking a patient to a hospital somebody having the ability to dial nine one one first responder who arrives and starts taking care of a patient is that a business where you've got c p r trained people on an automated defibrillator about the emergency department trauma center what's that is that different here in the car safety seat what does that have to do with emergency medical care and i think the reality is that a good d m s system is every one of those things and a lot more but is it a bit of a historical perspective emergency medical services in this country is pretty new by comparison fire service been around a you know hundreds of years up until the very late one nine hundred sixty s the ambulance service for most of america was funeral homes i don't know who supplied ambulance service of anybody in underhill prior to essex rescue but i suspect if anybody did it was a fuel pump and the reason funeral homes were in the business was typically they had the only vehicle in town long enough for somebody to lie down and they had to be available twenty four hours a get seriously injured the view of much of the health care provider community and i think of citizens was one of two things is going to happen you're either going to get better or you're going to die and it wasn't really understood that good prompt emergency care might play some role in making a difference in those outcomes so you know there was a cast central awakening in the united states back in middle late sixty's early seventy's about the need for better emergency medical care and i understand kind of where we got to today i think it helps to understand a little bit about why that happened the institute of medicine published this white paper on injury calling it the neglected disease of modern society really the first good scientific paper that said you know what if you intervene on serious injuries you can change the curve of who's going to die and who's going to lip interstate highway system was just being built on the interstate highway system highly engineered very modern high speed roadway for the country was was originally intended to be a zero injuries ear off a taliban robot in their states are pretty safe they actually have a lot of design features that make them good safe roadways but the u s department of transportation built the doggone things figured out fairly quickly after people started using them that no they were not injury free and they're not a county free and one of the reasons for that was inadequate emergency medical care within the health care community emergency medicine was just kind of starting to be recognized as a specific specialty of musicians practice and then you know you can never underestimate the role of popular media there was this great t v show about him you know a couple paramedics out los angeles johnny and roy and america's watching those guys grew dollar and save lives and saying how come we haven't got that in my community and yet all the people laugh about that but that drove decision making in many many areas is part of the work on the interstate highway system in the seventy's the federal government started making money available to states to help organize their v m s systems more recently back in one nine hundred ninety six there was an effort called the message gender for the future where we said ok we've been working on e m s systems in this country for about thirty years if we knew thirty years ago what we know now what our systems look the same would we design them differently and we learned several things like for instance most where systems were built around taking care of adult trauma and adult diseases like stroke and heart attacks and that kind of thing and we really hadn't included children in the same way in our training in our equipping that we had for dogs we recognize certain very time sensitive  problems like trauma stroke s t elevation myocardial infarction that's a certain kind of heart attack the been identified as things that we can really intervene and then in the post nine eleven era we recognize we really need to be ready to respond acts of terrorism so here's a little here a little picture of of an e m f system that i think is is kind of how patient sees it and i like spend just a minute walk through have a role but the outside of the circle is kind of what the patient sees and he had massive event starts with incident recognition somebody in you know in the public the public job is to recognize  and take steps to activate the system let me just stop there how good is the public do we classify that what's your subjective impression opinion about the public's ability to recognize an act good pretty good pretty good scene a correction on the highway everybody's got their cell phone oh ok ok it's a safe air ok so sol let me let me take that example and i'll just go down the road to richmond here for just a moment slipped off the road on the interstate on a slippery day and a car goes off the road typically that'll generate twenty five to forty nine one one calls all about the same incident because everybody with a cell phone driving by saw that car exit the road dial nine one one and the questions and i won't call taker ask is ok where is it everybody can tell you that pretty close and then that they say is anybody hurt and everybody's answer is i don't know rescue last year went to the interstate over five hundred times for slip off the roads how many of those had an injury that they transported the hospital that would be six cases so there's a kids where the public is probably too good at recognizing the incident and it has a dramatic effect richmond rescue that's a pretty little squad they run about thousand call the year half of their business is slipped off the roads that don't turn out to have a patient attached act look for the other and uncle charlie is having a heart attack at home how walang does the typical charlie sit around haven't symptoms of a heart attack or he says to his wife or anybody else or decides to go pick up the phone and call for help how long is he is he having his heart attack before time averages about four hours long and we've got that we've got interventions for people having heart attacks the day that make a difference in minutes i mean seconds and minutes we've got to get this stuff very very quickly we're trying to figure out how to you know shay five minutes off the time to care for somebody who's been having the problem for four hours just an example of the vagaries that exist kind of at every level so somebody recognises the incident they have to access this they typically do that through nine one one nine one one great system in vermont works very well nine one one answers the phone once they figure out it's an e m s call they push it through to the dispatcher we had s egress you get dispatch from the essex police department they send out a radio message crew begins to respond and if we have first responders in the area they will go directly to the scene before the ambulance then mans in underhill sleeps with a radio on twenty four hours a day and if i'm home out aaron underhill on the call is over i'm this side of wonder l m typically out the door we get to the scene ten twelve fourteen minutes sooner than the ambient oxygen the federal later drugs i v s bandaging material splints i carry a whole raft of stuff and i'm one of about fifteen members of essex rescue that live in the willy wag areas who will show up similarly trained similarly equipped to begin those kind of intervention everybody worries about when the ambulance shows up i would suggest worrying about when the amulet shows up worry about when a first responder shows up because we will stop the clock and maybe we can make the difference once we get somebody on the scene our annual it shows up it brings basic and advanced life support we are the only agency in this area one of three agencies in chip new county that have paramedics highest level of service available been in e m s system paramedics can do incredible things for patients they can make pain go away they can help people the easier they can do all kinds of things that improve not only outcome but comfort of patients and quality of the experience that they haven't yet mess we have certain specialty kinds of cases trauma cardiac stroke poisoning all of that patient goes to in some cases a specialty hospital we're blessed in chipping county to have health care that is a specialty center for all of those different kinds of cases the patient receives the necessary cube care at a hospital they will go through conceivably a period of rehabilitation in people say rehabilitation what does that have to do with emergency medical services i point to the example of christopher reeve's guy played superman movies fell off a horse broken his neck couldn't breathe once a first responder got there and could open his airway and be reed for him that saved his life how well christopher reeve got out of an institution got back to making movies raised about a good zillion dollars for spinal cord research really had more to do with his rehabilitated care than all arrests and stuff through the system we do prevention awareness we want people not to get injured not to get sick in the first place public education and hopefully we have a healthy community that's out there all that stuff in the middle human resources it's the people who do the job it's finance it's the money that it takes to support the thing it's legislation and regulation all of that sort of stuff in the middle so how does a community see it c m s system i think it varies greatly by community i think in general we any a massive done a poor job at teaching people how to support their e m i s system how to interface with it how to use it appropriately when need be and i think similarly it works so well in to work because we get calls we had i think three calls today for people who the hell who could not get up why did they fall well because their home health program didn't keep them from falling fell because their medications were messed up fell because their doctor sent him home from the hospital too early bell for a whole variety of reasons who cleans that mess up we do  mean that's that's the role we were the last backstop you know in the health care system or a network of resources and programs trying to keep people safe healthy we are just them taylor and we are doing very flexible things  are deployments to try and meet the needs of the community and we are a public health service and an acute care program that looks like a public safety agency we coordinate with other elements of the health care system we have to be safe for both our patients and our caregivers and we have to be able to meet the communities in the early part of the dialogue here really is how we judge the communities tolerance and willingness for cost timeliness and level of service so a couple of successes and challenges facing essex rescue were a private not for profit agency people get us confused all the time because we have essex in our name but we'll work our structures a private nonprofit we leverage the contributed labor of volunteers to keep our costs low i would submit that we are bargain basement costs for providing emergency medical services at an incredibly high level and that's because we are blessed with a very successful staffing of volunteers we've got a smart board of directors we've got people on the air that our president was  walsh citizen air school teacher in south burlington is one of our board members we really got some great quality books and i think we've been a leader in e m mass both in chipping county and around the state for the last four years we don't exist along we've got a lot of partners police fire agencies watch around other e m s organization we all have to work together because nobody we've got to have vehicles building insurance training communications medical oversight human resources we got all of that stuff before we can turn our first haul and if we're go be economically efficient we gotta keep those resources busy that's how we gain economic efficiency and we are a fairly busy service we run last year about seven hundred fifty because we're a very attractive agency for volunteers to serve it you hear reports all over the place about oh you can't get volunteers anymore we get volunteers every day new volunteers coming in we've got about sixty volunteers on our staff right now and we work very hard be attractive for volunteers a place to serve we've got a very small number of career staff myself and three others who do a variety of clinical and administrative support we are financially stable our organization has don't borrow any money we try to fund things up front have the have a rule to provide for our future capital needs so that we can make purchases without having to borrow and go into debt with the highest level provider agency possible we have a community advisory board sharing more on was appointed by you folks few years ago serves on a community advisory board so that we have an ongoing relationship an ability to hear messages and get the pulse of the community we've got a very strong first responder network lots of partnerships great in house training some challenges and opportunities for the future first question is are we really going to be able to sustain the level of volunteerism we enjoy today it's an open question don't know we're trying to think about it work on it and continue to be progressive in that area we got to ask ourselves the question are we in the right location i don't know if you been by and seen our station i'd invite you to claim in some time we're located right next to the essex high school our service area is a big square we are located down in the one south west question should we be moving our primary station further out towards essex center towards jericho towards underhill and and get ourselves in a more centrist location what does the future hold terms of reimbursement i don't think you can open the newspaper today and not be aware that healthcare reimbursement is under fire and very uncertain we depend on health care reimbursement our principal source of revenue is insurance from the serve we need to monitor that very closely and it could change is our fight is our funding model covering all of our real costs as i take the helm as executive director and beginning to question whether we've actually been budgeting our real cost me on some very very expensive equipment we've got a very expensive communication system as an example that we've built over time little bits of money grants here in there someday that thing's going to have to be replaced we're not covering the capital depreciation costs that we're not putting aside money today from building you know those are some very big ticket items that our financial picture really doesn't take into account we best manage decisions in one community their fact others jericho and you folks got together a few years ago decided to help support the cost of a staffer at the un real jericho fire department that we share fifty fifty services with with underhill jericho by doing that it bias the staffing out here to despair ia for daytime service but that has an effect on the deployment of our resources well today as an example and this is fairly common there were no calls in underhill in jericho we used the underhill ambulance one time for a second call back in essex and that's really probably more common then the number of calls in underhill and jericho and so how we deploy our resources and how the communities make decisions how we run things all really it's thirty days diabetes we may be able to play a role in keeping patients with certain illnesses from being readmitted into the hospital by doing home health monitoring we're looking at some of those complexities and quality of v m s the livery just like we're doing tonight really important part we want to continue to partner with you and help you with this dialogue and you folks give us feedback let us give you information that helps you better to assess monitor plan for the future we want to have a very long term relationship this thing works really good today because the towns are together with it anybody got out of this lifeboat it upsets the financing it upsets the economies of scale it upsets resource the point and so it's really important to us to keep all of the towns together and we want to use data to drive our decisions we can bring data about our responses we gave you some information our count report we today have a very sophisticated electronic data system we get off kinds of information about about our operations out here let me stop there i probably have gone a few minutes over i apologize and all maybe if you have any questions and otherwise i'll come see you again in three four months and we can continue some more conversation information here isn't enough money and at that time we only had a vague idea of what our expenses were going to be for this so much suddenly planned events and we did the best we could to estimate done food for less banners tents and the like but the suggested the tensional cost of about five thousand dollars so we are selling t shirts with an there for rather than gone to that i'll give you half an update as where we stand today this is a more accurate without really well knowing that the town didn't have a specific line item for us so we've done our best  so far donations and gone really well you know we've got the the majority portion of the park you for two hundred fifty persons including food drink napkins paper plates coffee come and even i'm not sure how many donated dumpster we have a professional grill from blue flame gas just the other day offered to loan us for free for these that versus approx three hundred sixty dollars cost we did put out this flyer to all the residents in town we don't want this to be a because one of the items on here was the old schoolhouse community project west which is main level and we didn't even have this together probably until about may third so it was really quick in terms of getting that up well run that item i don't to do the job including postage but i worked with mary over first appear and i kept coming back and saying but we don't have any money we don't have any money and eventually i got her to whittle it down to providing it cost three so we saved there folks who have provided services or products free i'm also the photographer we had expected we have to pay a photographer but we found one who's going to do it for free to take the town picture for free and then they'll put actually put it up on the website and allow folks to buy a copy of it we've got a hundred dollar donation which i'm still holding onto from some one room and we have all a long list of miscellaneous items including a couple of banners one i guess on the front of the town hall here ones from the you know the fire station we've got hamburgers hamburger buns all sorts of things that are donated thus far and that stuff still coming in so totally restimulated that the donate a portion of this event is already about who over seven thousand dollars which is which is pretty good so expenses that we do have again i talked about the flyer the total cost of that with proceeds with six hundred twenty four dollars the banners total cost right now it's coming out just under oath about a thousand dollars and i think you see him around town and they're up and down they're down  t one unfortunately i priced rockets that gerry held home center at lowe's and they were all about eleven dollars but that christmas tree shop had the same one it was three ninety nine that all those brackets are not lasting they're just breaking apart and unfortunately they were the cost was about three hundred three three fifty per back here to me got them up to twenty percent discount   brackets the total cost of this is when we look at the banners we're looking at about twenty two dollars per banner we did price this also if you you know professionally on the brackets alone are over fifty dollars for a bracket se and the banners are somewhere around sixty dollars apiece so total cost is somewhere between one hundred ten and one hundred thirty dollars per banner on our banner so twenty two dollars and then again you seem to have had probably twenty five artists think these this is absolutely unique there you know anywhere to have our own other cool artist and banners my biggest concern is some it's going to steal them because because there's they're so nice and i'm surprised the food tents and the port of labs which have already been approved so then when we came in we didn't really know what costs we were going to incur we did suggest various costs and so now bills that we have yet to submit for expenses and then there's the protocol do understand that theoretically we should be coming in here first and asking for permission before we spend but i think that was sort of confused because come from the proceeds of our t shirts which is why i assumed that we were ok to go ahead and spend some money and have time as well as the fact that we just needed this thing to happen pretty pretty quickly so that's where we stand i'm sure you do the census today for apiece we need a sound system we're trying to find one of that's free to announce the parade something small a sound system in terms of like a portable maybe a battery operated something they might use at the harvest market check there but we're trying to find one appropriate to allocate it to you for so i would say you know three or five thousand that would give you something a little bit actually be some donations some more donations coming in to purchase people to do it seems cleaner to if we just take on t shirt stuff we have decided as a historical society to donate money towards this that and so we can do that with this t shirt money and that we didn't have to be sort of rick's committee came up with the idea you do the t shirts we from the money for the t shirts we give them like to the town that has to be donations so that money goes to  one thirty seven river road i would like to select board to ensure that the right away specifications are being observed and i would like to know if the hanging sign is still there legally i live at one three three river road and when i am pulling out of my driveway my line of sight down river road towards the center is quite obstructed and i have strong safety concerns we have brought this matter up with our neighbor at one three seven but they do not agree with our concern and will not remove anything  i did some looking through i called the zoning administrate or she said the sign was authorized in one nine hundred seventy three for a business the business is no longer there at that location and hasn't been there for quite some time so i went i did a little research online  f some action to take like to make a motion to hire a temporary perk full time employee until our member from that's all a medical leave comes back of how much money we would save of we did this that we would spend if we did that is the rates that are in there right now and they may be so so i just kind of a little timeline i don't want to take up too much time b first year we put a value on each employee basically possibly yeah right that's where i've got you like some of the options you can choose and then in january the insurance is if in fact the state will bill the employer and then based on that bill you know whatever we say we're going to pay then i will set up payroll deductions for what we're not going to pay for each employee so it's a little bit more administrative work than the old way there's going to be some extra time to cya this year you have until march of twenty four thousand when you won't have insurance train for months if you don't sign up and in the future if an employee isn't signed up if we're offering insurance an employee is signed up by january they don't have insurance period and they can't sign up to the next because that's part of where so the federal law so if you get divorced you get married or you have a baby or that kind of stuff and then course that there was there will probably not be any cobra as we know it anymore because if an employee people have had six months so the individuals can get help from navigators in their robot process and it takes about thirty minutes to enroll in the system this is in my ask a number of health related questions things even like what drugs do you take you know how many times you see the doctor so i can try to steer you toward what it thinks is the best kind of policy for you it's also linked up to the i r s silicon on inadequate immediately you know you're going to get a tax credit you know how you go up th been released yet but they will help you either they'll be available to help you roll on line if you don't have on line access to help you over the phone you maybe even you might you know you might be able to be had some place w system may just be there to help answer questions for cloisters and get into the story so there are some decisions you can make and when i put in the first decision here is you know the very easiest thing you can use just drop insurance when you think it depends on what type of staffing you have if you have a lot of part time or low paid or whatever if you might be offering half of them insurance already and they may pop into the system now  d the other option that there's been some talk about is dropping insurance the gross you know the income so that the employed and would be able to take that net income and go and buy their policy so i just did an estimate  that you know the same but it was at twenty five percent bracket how much you have to increase their salary to be able to go out and buy insurance and that would cost us and ideational seventy four thousand dollars from what we currently pay and then employer to pay for insurance so they will not get tax credits that they don't now i think they would not leave it as yeah right right and especially and like if you're looking at a for profit company there they're able to write off that premium so then  employees going to get a tax credit you know you're double dipping that nobody likes the i dressed special you know you're going to doctor but so what you can do in the exchanges because there's the the chip companies and b p and blue cross and they each have like you know eight or so policies you can say to the employees to your employees to the exchange you can buy any policy from blue cross to this certain amount of money or you can see by any policy for me and b p or you can say you can buy any policy from any of those companies but only at the silver or you can say you can buy any policy in the whole exchange you want but here is all i'm paying you and i think that's the greatest benefit to write and really give that to whatever so i think letting them have the choice that anything is good and and and i think you know for me i put that main threats in there the thing that i'm really trying to switch in my head is that we are not buying insurance for employees anymore yeah exactly so so plan a i came up with offer comparable insurance and there really is no policy there that's as good as what we have right now because they are because they only had to offer starting at the platinum you know sixty percent and those co payments and out of pocket and i talk about are awful they're just awful i mean they can be like seven thousand dollars for a person we have fifteen thousand dollars for fanfan they're on now but do they actually is down and one of my other things that we are current plan has a co pay you know in the paid twenty dollars co pay it has you know a fee for the ambulance has you know fees for various things and we have an out of pocket moolah so we kept that exact same thing our savings would be thirty seven thousand dollars a year just simply because it's paid for and plan b you know i went to plan b because the out of pockets now are company for that now the first question co pays are higher and of the new policy that your primary care physician visits are lower still it would depend on how you use your insurance if that's going to be a good benefit for you or a loss so i was  policy still gave in lieu of it thirty five percent you'd still have a thirty three thousand dollars savings so i you know that's that's kind of a way to help the employee for any if you want to try to make the are there probably a very few people like this who are going to have weird stories because we we have very excellent health benefits here the town that you know a lot of the towns probably half the towns have like a high deductible and they don't even contribute to that  five and over could be in changes they changed it now and employees who are already in it in a health plan can be in the exchange they're sixty five and over but their spouses can't so but the employee has a retiree insurance policy and what we say in that particular policy is that if the employees on the insurance when they retire they get to stay on it and obviously they can't because they're and have you guys make the motion it does need some upgrading because i was looking it over because of all this insurance stuff and it does say that you have to work thirty hours to be included in it and you normally  yourself so i just want to change that to you have to work at least seventeen and a half hours which is what we use for everything with insurance ok and you know and it says it defines a spouse as a husband or wife and we were making changes m expand that to could same sex marriage and stuff here and then i don't know you know if if making whole i have this is a touchy whiny you know the in lieu of portion  approximately the same salary would be increasing that in the uk to about forty six point seven percent fifty percent so i don't know if you want to go down that road or not so those are just the nice t from four twenty five you guys and thirteen and based on that i've forecasting a based on knowledge at that time and we're casting a deficit for the here in the highway department of fifty three thousand nine thirty two the surplus in the general unassigned sixty seven or forty four and yet surplus for the fiscal year twenty thirteen of thirty five  and the revenues and expenditures are both less than ten percent variance our fine balance policy says if they're greater than ten percent variance this sort for has to take certain actions and we didn't get there so that's good didn't but he said he would enforce it so he's not here but so so so i would i would request you know if this is something that the celebrity to do if you want to wait till south is around again  to the shop where the judge ran into it and i know there were there was the discussion that you know cost too much to ship chacha came out and looked it over and reviewed it and he got a quote from d h cameron construction which is the local regional white people who deal in that sighting yeah they said that it comes from someplace down in alabama or to get that into the insurance company to claim one way or the other right what they did suggest a was that if they do pay for the freight and if there's no difference or we can tell what the difference is to add a few more paintings on it because it's big enough for macro to have some x so yeah so that's like still kind of the process and if they don't pay for it and it ends up being that much money probably i don't know that you want to prove don't know that one no that's ok but we're trying to take your access permit you know seriously here so i don't typically like when someone comes in for development in front of the developer you board  t well so it's just ask a couple question i guess are you ever do you have any plans to do i mean is just going to be residential your your house and the president have any plans commercial plans or anything no not  future where there's we have there are farming where animals and there's probably something eco tourism on a small scale yeah but not in the house right so i don't know whether i'll ever get approved for that that's not  a some sort of a hotel well you know some kind of commercial business or something like that you know you just you know your whole thought right now is you want to get to your kitchen and yeah you trees and i actually plan to mind if you don't mind i think there's some devil pine trees a few and if it's in the right way yeah i don't know if they're yours or mine or yeah we think in the right away we could take out but certainly know yeah i could is it just that i could put some paint or something on the edges you're talking about the way that it curves the end of the stick i was just should be going to i'm just saying if you're going to work within our right way you know we can put conditions on us permanent right and any work in the right of way should just be done by you know just by qualified contractor oh yeah something needs to be done properly so it's yeah i mean if they object then you could just kind of you could you know try to work it out so you come in that way go out the other way sure you seem pretty easygoing people but i  recommended which would be the of the cement vs the bridge versus the natural are and i didn't know if you have the opportunity because he was here to give you his opinion to help us out with this project need to map this for me and have some sort of a design to submit to bid you know to have something for people to look at so they can bid on the project  so you know we've got the preliminary ok for the structures grant so i'm looking at that with mike my thoughts are to go with on the open bottom box concrete with the footings footings you know concrete box you know do it right so when walls both same time he's also showing at the same time a arched metal and arch metal just in case the bids come in so high with the concrete that we here this is all this is all done there's no charge he said i volunteered my time to go out and survey it he did the same so he's come up with six drafted up some ideas to the grant money isn't until they get it right but i am right it was rosanne cash but i mean what i'm getting at is july and say you can't do the requests for proposals or any work ahead of time you know that's why we're saying well do you really even if this time is donated it should be in a project just get scrafton do you come up with the funding is that we're going to voyager well i don't know that i can answer that question until i know the answer so i've got two things here we need to know that we're getting the money  have the great money in the budget anywhere when you go into this blind we have estimates here of what these materials are going to cost ok and that's what our grant application is based on so we're thinking that it's going to be in the neighbor in the neighborhood and the end of the world mine they said they were hot so we're hoping for the best but if by this way we don't have to bid it twice if we submit to if we if we if we asked them for two separate prices