interior sewer that runs right through the center of the property over here on the left side it's coming back to play in the commission because at the time when we put the park back in november we didn't know exactly what the tenant make was over in the shops big michael can you just li we part in some i talked to the architect who's doing the fee shops in the material in terms of brick and the first sand color scheme is going to take on the similar building material and color scheme is the park little too yellow and dark it's more later the eavis that they'll be using in the the brick so in talking with the architect they're going to match those colors the same brick is even par that only way over part which is a good thing i think that we generate a lot of traffic in i'm going to ask in plain english may want to know do we know what bank is going here everyone's asking me  from say a bank and a into worry coffee shop using the whole space and it did not warrant the right turn lane but it's the sites being designed so that if in the future one is needed and the audience comments  i want to just conditions one in the for the entire project to get emotion i would like to make a motion that when a commission approved the revised final site plan for eden park as outlined in duplexes and patio homes and we can go into detail on that a little later in the order to multifamily zoning district patio home developments or a condition where we use their permitted in the order to multifamily conceptual play and i'll just get into that a little bit there showing a density of three point four units in a fifty four pal your home units we are to model a family zoning district allows off to seven to district the zoning section three ten buffer areas requires a minimum of fifteen foot wide buffer between multifamily developments and single family about what's in the area to the north being this way there's patio being developed here currently under construction there's an open space piece here that is very  to the west we have single family home the one shares cooler along main marion to the south we have the will scarlet single family residential area into the north we have single family residential homes in the peters township school district property in which is the high school pleasant valley elementary in the pleasant valley athletic complex and you can see that here all utilities are available to the projects site the property is a fairly regular shaped piece of property why in the back to twelve hundred plus fee it's it's gently wooded or slightly wooded with young grove of trees in for the most part and there are no known easements that restrict the building move area lot is no gas lines if you look at the proposed development of just give you some traffic information but if they would develop with fifty four patio homes the pm peak hour traffic would be thirty six trips thirty six cars in the p m p thirty two cars in the am this level of traffic for this type of development will create does not trigger a traffic study it generates less than the requirement in peters says it has to generate seventy five seventy five plus p p m p car trips this is well under that  getting really heavy but as it disperses and goes where it needs to go it's not going to overburden the road system in any way if the development is padding on homes of this density  just one other thing here on traffic or traffic engineer pointed out that it is important to know that the forecasted vehicles during the pm peak is on par with the streets that exist in traffic that those streets currently have  months that we sent the notices out an early april so i've spoken to a lot of those some folks have written letters were the conditional you states this is an opportunity for planing commission counsel to hear from residents here from the developer in it's an opportunity for us to review the conceptual planes and in established reasonable conditions and safeguards above and beyond would exist in our ordinance so it's an opportunity for us to work in conditions to protect the surrounding property owners and based on what they're showing us in terms of their conceptual play and we can establish conditions within the township they made a decision back in sixty nine that this was an appropriate location for this type of housing in and has developed that way over the years  are some things that we could get into as the developer explains what it is that he wants to do but it appears based on cheating all the goals of the development and protecting the neighborhood and protecting the folks that would potentially even value this development gets up and running and in gets developments that there could be some modifications and departures from our subdivision ordinance to for example don't want to take they don't like the idea of developing in a condominium environment they're explaining to us you know given the detail that there's some financing issues the banks have with condos these days so our subdivision ordinance requires this to be a con no fee simple ownership it requires that the patio home well and be done in a condo they want to develop it would have a homeowner's association but each individual patio home beyond its individual law so we need to think about that and discuss that tonight in addition the conceptual plan that they're showing you have there showing private driveways driveway a driveway b those are always problematic for the township in that once the buyers an owners get in there they don't want to maintain private driveways it's a burden for them we think that there's ways in which we can work with the developer in create public roads  maintaining that may require some modifications in working with the developer in on final design and modification is sort of like a variance but it's a subdivision requirement so it's called a modification so for example right of way if we want these roads the driveway a driveway would be to be public  we require that to be within a fifty four why if you put a fifty foot wide right of way in there they would there would be no room for any unit so maybe narrowing down right away is something that we would like to explore so we can get into that one way i do want to point out that we have three patio home developments that have been developed over the years we have the village of pres have hidden we have the crossings those projects have been very successful they're all empty nesters that are occupying these houses folks from within the community and outside the community that are empty nesters that don't want to have their big single family home in all the maintenance involved with that they're steered toward or geared toward this patio home type of device so it's been a very successful product in peters and the important point is that there's empty nesters moving in there that's not generating a lot of demand on our schools and not generating a lot of traffic single family generates more traffic believe it or not as i said this section of the township has developed over the years with a mix of single family homes attached town homes detached patio homes and duplex so it's it's not like it's an unfamiliar product to the to the area the other thing is it's in close proximity to restaurants and shopping hopefully folks and we can design and to make it easy for folks to walk down to athens for example so from a zoning standpoint name made this decision back in sic i think it's a good location for this type of development with that we know the background of where we stand why they're here conditional use so the planning commission has any questions for me i can answer in or we can let the developer go into detail on what it is that they wan question here for the developer have been working with with the planning department we've had several meetings and discussions and trying to work toward a you know a good product for all parties considered again  the specific product contemplated here is a patent on high end patio home development and we feel this is a very good use for this property as a kid being a transition from the single family development  good detached basically single family patio home development versus townhouse development or garden apartments is also a allowable conditional use in your twos and district in again just to just to reiterate we're here for a conditional use recommendation we've prepared a preliminary land of element plan to establish you know our approximate density and a conceptual design obviously we will be back through the process with with detailed detailed site plans and but you know this we establish what we're willing to commit to is as well as you know a density which is half of what's what is allowed here so we're proposing fifty four units on fifteen point seven six acres which is about three point four units per acre which is a little bit less than half of the allowable density of seventy units per acre we're also proposing and committing to enhanced buffer yards landscaping  storm water management amenities and a walking trail system the buffer yard is fifteen feet against single family and i believe it's it's less than that against the you know would be institutional setting and some of the other areas but we want to commit to the twenty five feet around the entire perimeter  t the landscaping in there will consist of to the greatest extent possible existing mature vegetation to remain as well as be enhanced with with with planting we have a storm water management facility conceptually in the lower right hand corner there this is an existing portion of the property to connect to the school district property which we can elaborate a little bit more on with the how disk the district has a literal request a recommendation  we submitted a conditional use narrative that outlines how this proposal meets the you know the character of the neighborhood in and kind of meets this specific criteria that up until the planning commission or the planning directors are recommendations if there's any questions at this time i'd be glad to try to answer those otherwise perhaps we'll go through i so our plan road itself is approximately six hundred feet deep or pumps or six hundred feet long but there's an additional three hundred roughly from the intersection of sheriff court to our just to clarify our ordinance does allow the road to go up to ten percent so there's no modification there yeah there me the units themselves against single family detached patio homes and i don't i'm not sure if it's the formal definition of a patio home but basically the definition is first floor living first floor garage and first floor master better so they all have a two car first floor garage they all have the first floor master price range they'll be starting at four hundred thousand most of them come in substantially higher than that but that's for the kind of the base base package either there have been there been units in the existing face six that are sold for over a million dollars how many total bedrooms are variation or are they all three bedrooms i believe there are they all what other water should as it's service to have to be enlarged from what's there now yeah that that would be my it is a patient too and obviously we're allowing the area to enlarge it and to answer your question on the segue into our proposed concept of three simple lots versus the condominium the maintenance will be no different than it is for the condominium portion of the of the development meaning face to face six the sheriff's court portion of the of the same product that's it's under construction right now if the only difference is the open space will be limited to some undisturbed you know slow areas of the buffer your wall be in and in the open space which you know keep somebody as well as other just kind of residual type areas including any additional parking that there will be included as recommended by but by the planning director th consistent there roughly forty three feet in change why on the larger units just get deeper so for that for that reason we are able to establish what with i think we have fifty nine feet and some change which we kind of work backwards to allow about a little over eight feet of side your per unit or sixteen and a half feet between between buildings a one of the most common comments i heard was that they don't want that walking trail up against their law it's one of the recommendations in our recommendation to the planning commission is to keep that one walking trio outside of the twenty five would permit or buffer we want that twenty five foot area around the entire perimeter to be you know undisturbed buffer no trails no no we're moving them more toward just sidewalks and creating a sidewalk on least one side of all streets within the neighborhood so folks can walk on sidewalks and we're hoping to work with them and get the sidewalk or some sort of paved access to the sidewalk on crossbow courts that would give them actually you know instead of walking around a fifteen acre site they put that aerial back up the whole nation of sidewalks in the neighborhood in a nice zoom in a little bit get oriented here this is the property they're developing and there's a sidewalk that exists right here on cross but we're hoping to work with them to get a sidewalk through the open space piece here in connect up to this park so folks could do sidewalks in this neighborhood now on crossbows who are known cross currents drive when we think that that is something that folks that live in that neighborhood lying in a new development would would like to fit that that is part of the condominium association now so we need a lot of signatures or to accomplish sound which kind of backs into why you know we're not proposing this is a condominium six to nine hundred thousand dollar homes some are more than that actually and the whole neighborhood outside of the patio homes over the hill in the townhouses up at the other end of sheriff's core where there is continuity of that type of development when she going to sheriff court and get on share of scoring the maid marian that's all single family living all roughly three three quarters of an acre prog some are even larger and i think it's really important think about the continuity of that in that neighborhood because you're putting some sort of development right in the middle what has always traditionally and people have always paid good money for to have large properties and proper distance between their neighbors and i know that that's was important to me when i bought my house and i'll share something i know that other a whole lot of the other neighbors share the same story stories or stories in oral and it's not in writing but when i moved there and made a commitment to move to share a score and more says we're going to build back of uke's i mean it's enjoyable to have a have the woods back there now but i always knew that they're going to build back there and i'm fine with that quite honest with you but what was always portrayed was there's going to be one to two acre state homes built back here so all this stuff about this was designed originally in sixty nine to have potentially patio homes that's what was ever portrayed to us as residents there  it was that would even be a big homes and i understand two thousand and seven two thousand and eight comes the very various state type homes don't sell as well but i look around peter's township and i see a lot of single family homes with half an acre to to one acre property doing quite well so i don't want to hear that peter's can't carry that as it can carry that but our whole property or that whole neighborhood is all single family down there with large propert now you're putting some development with and i know they're going to be nice homes but you're compressing a whole lot of homes together so just if i was going to see something back that would make me happy i'd like to see fifteen to twenty homes because that would be three quarters to a one acre and those with really fit in the neighborhood so that's my first point the second point around a traffic i understand that your traffic analysis but bottom line is these are high end homes if there are two car garage there should be one hundred cars more than one hundred do neighborhood with a lot of traffic and be a lot less traffic you're probably it was done the way them a neighborhood is now at least half the traffic so i think the biggest thing i'm the point i want to make here is there should be home so that's i think that's the biggest part of it i mean we can always talk about if we can't get people there what should be still done like honestly this you think about all these high homes here at minimum about the continuity of the neighborhood i hear patio home living is in demand i agree but no one peters people want to move to peter's to to raise families and they would be able to build those homes and still sell that type of home seen all over peter's right now so yeah i don't really want to hear that i think the whole idea there's been success a neighborhood around patio home living up the street and that was all originally designed i moved in the neighborhood that was there  and i agreed to come into that neighborhood with that they're ok that was always planned to go down over the hill we always all of us always knew that was going to happen to this was never planned was never patrik to us and i can tell you  know i know it's not going to come in here and swear some of it every mayor will tell you when at st it was originally intended to be there it wasn't this so that's kind of some things i want you guys  right here in this corner so everything that larry just said i concur with i know it's probably in terms of privacy issues maybe ten times in the case because not only do we have a planned unit right next to us but there's one right across from our driveway i also want to point out before i get into more details about this  road went up much like that with the t d in two called the sacks and we actually told dave that we wanted if when they developed that that we would want the corner lot and i'll tell you where that was  pointed out i think in some ways this was a misrepresentation it was a decision it was the fact that we considered we bought that house and now we're faced with that different kind of community and  or what do we do we're landmark gives me whirling walk on the other three sides and we watch this property as this developed over the years with the intent that if we're going to try and doing that probably has the most conceptual way of doing something between place barney i'm on to something happened that area when you have the largest group of people generally the target ship that are together one time and if something happens done or a football game graduation one of those where to go there's literally no where to get out or if something was a major thing on the very road blocked at all so what we've come up with and where we're coming tonight is a recommendation is the consideration that on the road going up to  buses cars and the intent would be that this is not an ongoing thoroughfare the test would be a restricted access that would be used for special events for emergencies  give you is when mcmurtrie school is being renovated and we couldn't get this valley broken all that we couldn't get through orchard highlands this way we would have the same concept areas that would be gated off so that if there's a graduation there can be a second access point if there's an emergency there's a second access point it's not the intent would be not to be used to have cars going through our complex we don't want it that's a safety issue  emergency access you're not getting it every friday night after a high school football game is gates of the bush traffic through there to get get everyone out of the parking lot quicker yes i would say that the football game would be a special acc so you're going to have going out for an hour you would have it for graduation possibly going to come in during the incident for students for top people who want to drop off the kids that's not the intent now we're not going to say that if there has to be construction something else happen out there we don't know if something happens with one of the roads going up there we can't predict that's all we said unforseen future needs we don't know but the intent now is not to have that as a full road and that there wouldn't be there would be the opportunity to walk through so the people in this complex diner or anywhere diner could walk up to any of that area of there but they would be able to drive through it the gate was b have that much of a potential there without planning ahead and coming up with an alternative method i think would be a little shortsighted the touchups not going to slow down we're going to get more traffic i'm very road is just going to keep getting worse if we lease plan on our last opportunity to actually do something to do that we put some instruction joined as a accommodation for safety as well as the homeowners up in that area i don't think  do it because we we have some issues to work with the district exactly how to do this to make sure that the census would be our proper road we need to protect your students in the actual city make sure that this is a reasonable study we did not study it we always invision it even in my recommendation to the planning commission take in the marion maid marian lane all the way to the  line because we know the school district property there is landline we staff planning staff in vision did as an emergency access so you know we didn't study that it would just be an emergency and  so the answer is opening up for events and football games that that's a whole nother ball game it's likely that right now you're pm peak is for six sometimes that may be lower but still it graduation of course comes to mind but we all know that we do run on the field there's other times as with both fields there so i would say between our september into november there could be the majority friday friday nights that either it's our students or it could be rented out if we do that two or three times a year also but you're not looking at an axis to get buses or students in and out of the school at this point on i want to day to day basis now it was  special events only it cannot be used for daily in an out school trav need we planning commission can craft a condition that you feel comfortable with and you know develop flow out of there and i'm not sure of this you know this might be just you know work quick solution that might not be picture wise be the right thing to do absolute long term a suv that the car driver gives years haven't looked at this at this point looked at what this over time this is i guess what the school districts are asking you know they haven't looked at it they knew going into not to tonight's planning commission meeting that it would could potentially be there for emergency access gated definitely that so that didn't trigger any traffic issues in his mind so depending on what the school district wants to do i can talk to him and see what he would think but definitely you know affects traffic  even during special events it would trigger traffic issues maybe some traffic additional traffic calming would be needed you know it just triggers all kinds of other potential issues objection to the emergency exit you know my concern is if we start opening it up for football games and whatnot then we get in a situation where you know we're open for football games now we're going over for soccer games or you know the all day pageant next thing we know them first of all and i can kind of touch on a couple of the issues that the that our neighbors raced to very quickly on those that made the setback for maid marian you know we're willing to look to increase that setback to make to make it more consistent with the with the existing residences on maid marian lane for those for those first five units perhaps a transition from the fifty feet down to twenty five or somewhere in between and what will certainly keep that my moving forward and working with the township on that in the walking trail also we did say we would remove from that twenty five foot setback as to the access back in here we understand the concerns and you know like you said god forbid the event of an emergency we are willing to provide a twenty foot emergency access  easement and you know driveway back to the boundary that could be connected but that would be the extent of what we would be agreeable to would be emergency access only not a you know limited or event type situation would i think the system residents would agree that that would you know severely alter the character of the existing neighborhood as well as our plan between between those and slide some things and and we have some flexibility in our design it's not it's not a final design but it was conservatively put together where you have to to be evident to move some things around to emergency access and the you know the impact on the existing residents and we did have to to to limit the number of units long along those in you know sensitivity to that  had a dance buffer on the backside a share score i would opt off the top of my head propose something consistent with what we did there which i believe was an a mix of deciduous tree with with and going after a company for your development it was correct yeah in and we would certainly modify that as necessary to allow that emergency access to to go through personally i think it's very prudent to have  emergency access there i don't know how supportive i am at this moment about providing event access that sounds like we're expanding into the or twenty four foot wide road and it sounds a bit it would still be we do it so i think there is any unit built immediately adjacent to the lanky union or the marshes unit be built fifty feet and then after that being in transition back closer to the road to of my planning staff recommendations to the playing commission is to establish that as a condition i think that's a reasonable condition for this proposed development to design by the way that the regulation is cra sac and we will certainly look to incorporate all those things into you know our final development plans which would include setting back those units for the from a marion as well as maybe some sort of questions concerns comments into account when we when we do prepare a final land of ellen plans that will be back for the planning commission would you be willing to big increase the buffer along t of evergreens you know something you know you can you can have provide density and you know in a limited limited distance but are we talking about thirty feet or if we're talking about one hundred feet the answer is no we're talking about forty or forty feet establishes this is where the single family and this is where value is began so i just think that's something you really need to look at here because if i had you know if you have sent you what you got here this point is you know it starts on i think you're heading down the right track their establishments a setback and you know if it if it has to be forty feet you know again that you're only right now that you  and the beginning of the development i mean the ways drawn off thirty feet if we were to take that thirty feet all the way across the street and moves you move units two and three further into development so that thirty property line right and there is no structure on the southern side of me will be closer than one hundred feet from the existing property line between the end of the buffer and the first year you know this thirty four thirty five pushed away as far as possible loving anything else you still seems to be a little more space in there no we're not going on at all thirty of his recommendations the fire compression system the fire suppression systems being recommended i believe by the far more sure you know  there's a couple things in the ordinance that trigger fire suppression system we don't think we need those so we would like to kind of defer on that and have some further well set there were a little more leaving it open ended i mean if worse if we're saying that they have to be public roads we don't want to save resource allocations maybe maybe maybe  i just don't know what that drainage area is  american facility be designed to accommodate the proposed development and any existing development such that it meets all current codes development back to what it condition or something like that in and really inflate our rates just for waterfall ok that's fair yeah i think that's reasonable  we are if we allow this to be used for any purpose other than urgencies we're opening a pandora's box and as much as i appreciate school districts concerned about you know getting traffic out of the school  gesturing on that too just out of concern that if it was a twenty four foot paved cart way just like a public road i just be concerned somebody might be back here from school district or somewhere in the future saying well geez it's just worth of a road would would i would suggest is perhaps a sixteen foot paved with with in penn dot does all the time with a twenty four foot improved with in other words like a gravel a gravel section of twenty four feet sixty feet of which is pa property to be used solely as an emergency exit emergency access to the school district property or any other specific use approved by council in the beginning we can different and of a want to do something different that's their prerogative of course but i just don't think that's the right recommendation to marry because that's open to almost anything you do the commencements the football games the high school unit and not on the ground that it's that it's on becomes an issue there is an issue that i'm familiar with in the north hills where the developer of a condominium type development went bankrupt bank foreclosed on the property people that owned their own their house didn't own the ground underneath it the bank did they came to they came to terms in the bank graciously accommodated it but but that's  that's an example and further just just with that whole there's a complication to the condominium laws were basically made for maybe like a florida high rise condominium and they're just they're just awkward awkwardly written from a legal and financial standpoint with above below and and things like that so it just gets it gets very clunky and very difficult to get loans and i think the a standard loan requires maybe twenty percent down or i think it's a condominium line requires like forty percent downpayment just because it's unusual nature and i can attest from my experience from my clients it is getting more and more difficult to get loans and purchasing condominiums so i completely sympathize and empathize with your point in that regard great  were there on here from planing staff in on tape testimony on what the planning commission did planning commission charged with making the recommendation this is plenty commission statistician is made in the developers say they approve the condition used in there will be plenty of opportunity for them for the residents to keep track of what's going on fire you when final plans are being the development guidelines that the engineer will have to comply with as he moves forward with his