committee on natural resources will come to order please let me begin by assuring my colleagues as evidenced by the time that i'm wearing today it will be the last meeting no the committee before the holiday season course of this year the house has passed ninety six measures originating from this committee the vast majority of those measures were considered a suspension bills and were considered in a bipartisan fashion when the other body does them what they do with them is another matter entirely and say you need sixty votes to go to the restroom anymore i would be remiss if i did not state what an honor it is bad for me to serve with my ranking member and i say that despite some not me calling him dr no on several issues  members they too have been extremely diligent in carrying out their duties many of them had have sat through long hours of hearings and have done the nitty gritty that's necessary on the vital legislation this committee has considered during the course of the year and i thank them very much and to all committee members our thank you for your participation i feel we've had good participation during the course of the year good input and  thank you where you found a lighter more able to support the chairman's position i do appreciate that as well i also want to thank the staff on both sides of the hour as we all know they do a tremendous amount of work those are those are their actions may come into play and thank you very much for the kind words i've enjoyed obviously my time here ever after twelve years at absence from this servant on the rules committee and certainly there are issues that we are going to disagree on but i have found in the time that that i have been here this year that we have agreed to disagree and then we will proceed with the arguments and move forward in that sense i do want to say i'm a  obviously agree on and there was given take as there always is we don't see that give and take puts together but i know that they worked very hard on that and five bills were read up on it something that we could all agree on until we got to a hearing on that bill last june and we expressed some real concerns that we had on our side of the aisle genuine concern i have some concerns with that bill and then there was a markup that was scheduled that was abruptly canceled we didn't hear why it was canceled unless last friday mr abercrombie came to me and said that he had an agreement worked out and wanted to move the bill i spoke to you on the floor saying that we had some concerns with that and why our concerns have been brought forward at this late date so we intend to use all of the resources that we have within the rules to try to explain why this bill in my view should not be moved forward as you know i sent you a letter last night asking you on that basis mainly because there is a letter from the governor why in the attorney general expressing their concerns people that have in the past strongly supported this concept so mr chairman i just want to say that we will work very diligently we have some opinions on the five bills we'll make those points and then we will move forward when we get to h r twenty three fourteen we intend on the minorities to utilize everything within our toolbox in order to to make our points and with that thank you again for the compliment i didn't mean to put a downer on it with my observations here but you know that somehow the way this process works and i do wish everybody the ranking member been very open accurately described including a phone call to me last night at home his position and the letter that was received by the governor of hawaii and the attorney general i believe that with him it is my expectation that we will proceed forward with the legislation and as we probably will have a long day here on the house floor we'll see how far we get on it during today's proceedings  letter but i have been a dirty general is a full disclosure is a personal friend has been for for many many years has been a good friend to this bill said so today i had a long conversation with him yesterday the difficulty here is that for reasons that are inexplicable to me his constant references in terms of being in the loop on language changes and so on over the years somehow did not take place in this particular instance i simply can't account for it never occurred to me that this  an ongoing conversation and dialogue because this had to do with the legal side of things and i must say it's it has nothing to do with the legislative that's why we weren't talking the language changes that are proposed here have to do with questions that have been raised by those who had concerns about the constitutionality questions and so on and that's what the language changes were supposed to address now in my conversation with him  reiterated my appreciation to him about his participation and his and his support over the years and that of the governor and as you know i have expressed that to the committee on their behalf over the past ten years and i don't think that's changed the military general understands very clearly the general procedures of the house and i indicated to him today that i wanted to go forward with the bill because of the of the legislative logistics that are involved here with the idea that i would certainly recommend as happens over and over again when we when we pass bills and there are still some concerns about it that he'd have the opportunity then to engage in a dialogue particularly the justice department to address issues he does not think and i've obviously i'm representing our conversation to you  the issues you raise in the letter don't get to the constitutionality question they have to do with policy and procedure and they're real and the concerns that he raises are real and i want to indicate to everybody that that i agree with that and that he he has the constitutional responsibility to look to the state's interests the state of hawaii's interest and and so he's put forward this letter because he has those concerns but he does not have in the governor does not have concerns about support for what we've called in its various variations over the years the akaka bill that that is not in question here the question is whether or not  we can clarify some of the language involved there so that he can say that the interests of the state are indeed protected or not compromised in some adverse way so i would like very much if we can to proceed today with my assurance to yield to mr hastings to all the members here who have their reservations that nothing will go to the floor without a manager's amendment of some address the various issues that are involved and indicate what i've said to the attorney general and so on and i'm hoping that everyone here will because of some of some folks are new to the to the committee and so on but for those who have been here over a period of time i think this committee has an excellent record on all sides no matter who is in charge of the chair back over the past twenty years of following through on the promises that we would now recognize myself for five minutes for the purpose of explaining the bill h r seven to five would amend the indian arts and crafts act of one thousand nine hundred to authorize any federal law enforcement officer not just the f b i is under current law to conduct an investigation of an officer involving the sale of any misrepresented as an indian produce good under the b all findings of an investigation of alleged offense would be submitted to a federal or state prosecuting authority or to the indian arts and crafts board sale counterfeit jory pottery baskets rugs and other items consumer degrades the entire navy market and robs talented hardworking of their living this is been a version of the bill by unanimous consent and i am unaware of opposition to either version i do have a few concerns i want to relay which i may describe in further detail in the committee report further h r seven twenty five authorizes any federal law enforcement officer to investigate alleged violations of the any arts and crafts act a large number of federal agencies have their own law enforcement divisions many are probably ill suited to investigating complaints relating to indian art i think it might be wise to consider whether we might identify a specific agencies with the right kind of expertise and experience to deal with this act however i realize this could slow eventual passage of the bills so if you're willing to insert into the committee report a statement expressing our intention that appropriate agencies be identified then this should do it finally in my review of the indian arts and crafts that i see that the definition of indian tribes includes state recognized tribes and tribes recognized by an entity vested with the authority by a state legislature h r seven twenty five reflects such existing laws and i question whether congress may delegate to a state the authority to recognize a tribe particularly when the delegation of authority contains no traditionally  this notice be extended to all members of the committee and to apply to all bills considered by the committee with abjectness order next item for consideration is h r two to eight the endangered fish recovery programs considering not even due to expire until two thousand and eleven at the cost of eighty four million dollars now as part of the law that created this program in the year two thousand the department of interior was required to prepare a report no later than the end of the  year two thousand evaluating the effectiveness of that program and determine what additional funding was required that report has not been submitted to the congress my amendment simply says that before the extension can actually take effect in the first day of the fiscal year of two thousand and twelve the department has to complete the report telling congress if the program actually works specifically under public law one  ninety two which created the problem with a bipartisan majority in two thousand the secretary of the interior quote shall submit a report no later than the end of the fiscal year of two thousand regarding the need for continue funding after fiscal y one of the most beautiful places on the face of the planet but just as it was articulated i too have concerns that this is not the proper time to move forward on this we don't even know the price of this property to say that it's between forty and fifty million dollars is a huge right we don't have the proper report and as the gentleman just pointed out we don't have the money ladies and gentlemen we can no longer be just using the government wilderness in idaho there are approximately twenty five water diversions within idaho wilderness areas that predate the wilderness designation although the diversions continue to operate their owners currently lack the authority to maintain and repair the authorize a forest service special permits to owners of those existing waters this is within the frank church river of no return wilderness and selway bitterroot wilderness and i don't know to do the necessary maintenance the legislation is narrowly tailored to apply only to a small number of sites that meet specific criteria for these permits to qualify the water diversion facility must have been in existence on the date that the area was designated as part of the national wilderness preservation system it must have practical or feasible to relocate the facilities to land outside of the wilderness area and continue the beneficial use of water recognize under state law mr simpson worked with the forest service in developing this legislative remedy to the problem i tailored to fit only a small number of facilities in one state but i do think there is a need needed less in this exercise we are going through because it illustrates the collateral damage we caused to innocent bystanders when we designate areas that contain useful manmade features as wilderness this designation is a most inflexible and restricted land use weapon in our arsenal and too often we find after the fact that we must pass additional federal legislation simply to allow some beneficial activity to continue we ought to be wise enough to devise sound conservation practices in our land without creating the unintended threats and neighboring families that poorly thought out wilderness designation can bring there is no bill until wednesday feb twenty fourth will allow sixty days for all parties to thoroughly review and analyze this bill as well as provide this committee was sufficient time to hold a public hearing or public hearings on the proposed changes reflected in the abercrombie amendment in the nature of a substitute has been filed on twenty three fourteen this substitute a rewrite significant portions of the bill in time is needed to understand the changes in here from people who will be impacted this includes allowing time for the governor and the attorney general of the state of hawaii to fully review this bill each member of the committee has received a copy of the letter sent last night to chairman or a h myself by the attorney general of hawaii on behalf of the governor that expresses there and i quote strong opposition end quote to the proposed changes their opposition is especially concerning considering these two leaders been active and vocal advocates of the original of the original text of h r twenty three fourteen for many many years they worked hand in hand with the why a congressional delegation in support of the original text of the bill over the years they've both traveled here to washington d c and testified in congress in favor of the original text of the bill now to bill has been substantially rewritten behind closed doors they've been compelled to send a five page letter that you all have expressing opposition to the proposed changes the committee is scheduled to consider today the attorney general and the governor have only had the full text of the proposed changes for a matter of literally time difference so postponing until february twenty fourth will allow them time to fully review the changes and have their concerns understood and considered by this committee postponing consideration until february twenty four ensures that this committee does not attempt to rush these proposed changes through this schedule markup and prevent a fair opportunity for the rewritten rewritten text to be thoroughly analyzed embedded by all of sect and interested parties so to repeat my motion mr chairman i move that the committee postpone consideration of the bill until february twenty fourth two thousand and ten that are you back  fundamental premises behind the bills offering and are in opposition but we've always been able to deal with this very straightforwardly i understand that's going to take place today will deal with all the amendments as such i just request out of the friendship and respect we have for one another we really don't need to go through a whole slew of parliamentary procedures as if we were not colleagues but in some kind of unalterable opposite to one another we have a difference of you here even a difference of philosophies and even principles but in this committee we've was able to respect each other and that pleased my request because we don't need to go through all of the  maneuvers around it as if we were in some kind of on alterable opposition to one another personally i just requested we we take up everything in regular order and and and out of respect and friendship for one another w chairman under my reservation which i obviously did not object to i just simply want to say i am one that believes that comedy ought to be part of any debate and if you have honest differences you debate those differences but as i mentioned at the outset of this committee hearing there were five bills that we agreed on our staff work with the majority of staff on agree on and on bills that we could move forward and then this bill as you know mr abercromby you came to me friday night and said there is an agreement worked out i took you at your word i explained to you you already knew that i was opposed to the underlying bill and then last night as i mentioned in my previous remarks here the attorney general of hawaii on behalf of the governor of hawaii who didn't have the text of the contacts my office we didn't know that they didn't have the text supplied to him and that led to this letter coming to us so this this is a serious issue i understand the gentleman who's running for governor and is going to resign is probably the smart thing to do resident commuting that are running for governor but this issue has been around for at least nine years for goodness sakes and i think that there ought to be due diligence and in the letter that was sent by the attorney general he simply said there hasn't been a hearing on this at all and forth from somebody that supports the concept when he makes a statement as strong as we are essentially creating another native american tribe i think that's pretty serious and if there are issues that need to be resolved i think the proper way to do that is to not pass something that  rather if one wanted to move the other piece of legislation i'm not going to suggest a gentleman his course of it and then work out those differences from that starting place from a place where you have obvious opposition now that courtesy and patience today this is a long day and at the same time your attendance here and your attention to this very important bill from the point of view of all of our folks in hawaii is much appreciated mr chairman by way of information not just on the bill itself but on procedure i want to indicate that while my original intention today was off to offer substitute to the underlying bill that i have decided that in the interests of not just the committee's time but in the interests of the of the context of the bill which some of us here on the committee have been dealing with for the better part of a decade that i will not offer the substitute i will certainly explain the bill the underlying bill right now but it is my intention not to offer the substitute and to request that the committee give consideration to the underlying bill for passage today with the idea that the issues that have been raised in association with the substitute can be addressed and in time to come and in and in good order yes i will i appreciate the gentleman yielding and as i had mentioned earlier today many on our side have problem with the underlying bill but i think that is a much better approach procedure standpoint the bill if i could summarize it in the following fashion what were what is attempted here and by the way the context mr chairman is i'm sure every member can appreciate this whether they're new to the committee or not every district has its own particular its own some instances peculiarities with regard to issues involving land involving water involving native people involving treaties involving combinations of elements in that regard land tenure etc and as such we have to be not only knowledge that but then try to come to a conclusion which i think the committee regardless of leadership whether it's republican or democrat has demonstrated over the years a sensitivity to and an understanding of the particular needs of individual districts in areas and regions with regard to resolving issues that come before the natural resources committee in that context i want to say that what we're trying to do with the bill and what we believe is done by the bill is define what nativo light winds will be allowed to participate in reorganizing  government entity stablish is a process for the reorganization of a single native wind governing entity under the auspices of the secretary of the interior it has provisions concerning federal state and native government authorities and claims against the united states and the state what it means to hawaii is that it allows the state and federal governments to transfer land in dollars they now administer for native hawaiians by way of federal recognition that's in essence what this is and and the the sum and substance of the arguments about it fall within that broad mission or that broad analysis i believe this goes back in history and i certainly won't review all of that to the time of the overthrow of the kingdom we've gone through from being a kingdom to a shotgun republic to a territory the united states to be a state of the union and you can imagine what the land tenure questions just on the land alone have been over that period of time so at the time of statehood and the admissions act bringing the territory of hawaii into the united states of america some fifty years ago it was  considered a part of the admissions act to try and deal with this question of how we administer land and dollars on behalf of a native hawaiians and in respect of the political and  social history associated with the movement from the king to statehood so it provides for members of wind community to democratically develop a plan to accomplish this task a native wind governing instrument will be created to represent the interests of hawaiian participants and is subject to the approval of the secretary of the interior it ends decades of discussion literally decades of discussion about who controls the money in lands designated by law for benefit of native hawaiian that's in the admissions act there are some who may want to litigate that all over again but the plain fact is that's required by law when the why i came into the union the akaka bill means ending dependency on others for resolving challenges facing chairman and the other chairman who have been here republican and democrat who have helped to try and put this together it's taken a long time but and i'll conclude with this for new members the reason it takes a long time is we are respectful in this committee and in this congress of what it takes to write ancient wrongs and to try to bring not just a sense of justice but the actual legislative acknowledgment of what constitutes justice and parity and equality for and for native people and that sometimes isn't always easy to discern legislatively because of the of the complicated history but nonetheless that's been our obligation and i'm deeply appreciative of the members who  worked on for a long long period of time and i had more concerns about the substitute that was being proposed i'm glad the substitute has been withdrawn i would hope however again picking up on what my friend from hawaii said because it does have a history of when there are differences to work them out before whatever solutions are brought to the floor of the house i suspect that that process will  quoting i believe with all due respect to the attorney general this critical and important legislation must be permitted to pass from your committee the attorney general will have the opportunity of further comment as measure works its way through the process in other words  everybody is committed while both i and everybody in hawaii to try and work this through the last thing we want is for people to feel let alone think or conclude that they haven't that their views have not been respected even if they don't prevail in any given moment but we want everybody to participate everybody to feel a sense of completion in terms of respect for their views and consideration of what's best for native hawaiians thank you mr chairman if the  this and we should work i am wanted to live through the last canadian man claims act and for those in this room keep in mind is probably the best things ever happened to the state of alaska because there was a large amount of public land government own land was none of you really like i don't believe privately very beneficial to the state and course alaska natives themselves the greatest success stories in the history of this congress came right out of committee and i'm very proud of exercise sovereignty over what is now the state of hawaii and that the already of congress indian tribes is unquestioned and has been raped by the united states supreme court it is time that the native mr abercrombie for his dedication and perseverance on this matter no i was referring to i hope this is the last time we have your l expressed in our national motto from any one this bill establishes two sets of laws two sets of rights and two separate governments depending entirely upon the race of the individual members yes not so much by way of refutation or anything but rather some comment i couldn't agree more with the idea about from anyone  because in hawaii our diversity defines us rather than divide this is to bring us together that's precisely why we're doing this i quite understand why the gentleman might not be completely the control of land and money it's amazing how many people want to come in and and make their presence known in this particular instance i'm afraid  i don't know if it was an analogy but the example that was raised with regard to indian tribes that they did not know airily join the united states by choice and and that there were some instances conquered  that applies to why the kingdom did not become a what i call the shotgun republic what was termed a republic at the time by choice on the contrary it was because the kingdom was overthrown it was  military so much of the history that has taken place since that time has resulted in why we're here today and was recognized in the admissions act the gentleman may not be familiar with the admissions act and i certainly wouldn't fault him for that but the admissions act makes  ceded lands a term that refers to the crown lands that belong to the kingdom over which the territory and and now the state of hawaii exercise its jurisdiction pending the resolution of some legislative conclusion regarding how that administration can can be given to a native hawaiian government governing entity because native hawaiians are re why homeland's and ceded land the homelands and much of the ceded lands were for a long time considered not worth much that is to say in monetary terms but whenever land becomes where something and whatever money's involved as there are as there is now with the sea the land yielding considerable funds as a result of being leased the airport for example is on ceded lands many lands now produce enormous amounts of income amounting to tens of millions of dollars a year land which was thought to essentially useless quote unquote in terms of commercial exploitation and so on now is seen as extraordinarily  valuable given the housing situation in hawaii the high cost of housing in the limited amount of land believe me why homeland's and seated lands now are extraordinarily important and valuable when it comes to housing and commercial enterprise now suddenly everybody's interested when it wasn't worth anything in terms of dollars nobody cared nobody nobody cared now everybody cares i can assure the gentleman that the last thing this is is a race based  situation quite the opposite and i'll conclude by simply referring to what now takes place with the office of hawaiian affairs for which every everybody can vote whether they're native hawaiian or not everybody gets to vote every single member of the trustees of the office of online affairs as a wife elected by everybody else because everybody in hawaii understands that this is an historic legacy hawaii could not hold a state election for a state agency we're only native hawaiians voted no the reason we passed it in the first place and it was approved by the people of the state of hawaii it was a constitutional amendment approved by state election that's what the court ruled and that's what we did that's why i referred to the interesting i suppose irony that even though the original the original office of  amendment so we immediately changed it and the results are all native hawaiian said on the on the office of the board of trustees and everybody votes for them i can't imagine from anyone absolutely that's what's taking the constitutional amendment that came in the late one nine hundred seventy s which said that for the office of hawaiian affairs native hawaiians would vote  referendum after negotiations between the native hawaiian governing out of the federal government and the state government the state constitution needs to be amended to implement the negotiations  so it amounts not just amounts to a referendum but it has to be approved by the entire state in order to amend the constitution as i've just indicated when we established the office of online affairs in the late sevent the whole state has to vote so in a certain sense it's redundant whatever whatever comes out of the negotiations between the federal government the governing entity proposed governing entity of the of the native hawaiians and the state government the result of that has to be incorporated into the state constitution which requires of old if we had finished it by now would be november of two thousand and ten just like any other constitutional amendment so obviously there's going to be an enormous amount of input while the organic governing documents are are put forward and a decision made as to as to what that entity will  constitute it could be a council it could be a corporation as the native alaskans have have developed i'm not sure what it would turn out to be but believe me i can assure you that if you think we're having a conversation today or that we've had one for the past ten years in this committee the negotiations the conversation the dialogue the discussion will be it will be virtually is agreed upon and consensus can be reached by the negotiators for the state and for the federal government through the department of interior it will apply only to the native hawaiians under the native hawaiian governing entity it will not apply to anybody else so there's nothing for myself as a non native hawaiian to to vote on under those circumstances so i think the intent and purpose of a referendum is more than sufficiently embodied in the in the in the bill as it has as we have before us  court chairman i was i did not offer the substitute today and i think the whole object of the substitute and hopefully this will prove to be true in time to come was to address such questions as constitutionality so we might not have to go to the supreme court at all maybe we can get agreement that language can be developed which deals with any constitutional question sufficient on to the day if however that doesn't take place we have a suggests mr chairman i think that our the same argument can be made with virtually any piece of legislation that comes forward that would the congress effect say that any legislation that passes that has any controversy over its constitutionality goes directly to supreme court there's no more justification for us saying that anything having to do with native hawaiian government entity goes directly to supreme court then  decides that the legislation is sufficiently well written or previous court decisions are sufficiently compelling that it does not choose to accept the case so for us to presume that supreme court would even want to take this  as it was intended by the writers if we don't have a foundation a stable foundation that we can all stand firmly on in law then we go to  the constitutional issues as a whole but there are many constitutional issues dealing with this is the best way for the taxpayers the united states as well as the taxpayers the state of hawaii apply law that's what i think i have to oppose your amendment because i agree with you the supreme court is not a fact finding body at least is not supposed to be is not is not a either constituted nor capable in terms of its clerks and its  facts and so on have been established or not established sufficient for the court to decide whether it wants to take up the issue or not so i think that all the supreme court does  follows what you are stating and i think it does for the most release to try to i mean we're all human beings and doing their best to do it i think is not to interpret at that level at all but rather is the law as a law been properly if the law has been properly applied if you don't like the law you've got to change it but the supreme court is not going to interpret or legislate so i think that substitute i had in mind even if it was inadequate from your point of view there was an attempt to deal with the constitutional issues that need to be resolved the lower courts and the supreme court needs to reserve the right to see whether or not the law's been properly applied and mr chairman with that one thing that needs to be but they changed their minds while the getting probation is already contained in this act which i think is good i am concerned that after recognition is granted the entity returned some time to future congress and argue that it was unfairly denied as power shared by others so by holding this vote on the prohibition of gaming and what i think would be an overwhelming vote in support of this amendment to prohibit gaming we mr abercrombie mr whitman mr woodman both snow mr born mr fleming mr fleming both you know mr heinrich mr brown from south carolina mrs mcmorris rodgers gentleman from hawaii has announced his intention to resign from congress in the near future to focus on his campaign for governor and i just want to take this opportunity to express my personal deep appreciation for all his years of service on this committee has been an extremely valuable asset to the committee is departure is going to be sorely missed for those of you who do not know about needles efforts to win a seat in congress i can recall them rather vividly his predecessor represented resigned from the congress in july of one nine hundred eighty six to run for governor of hawaii neil was elected the house september eighty six special election to complete have tails unexpired term however on the very same day the very same day lost the democratic primary for a full two year term in his endeavors in the house is because he is an avid weightlifter for those of us to go to the gym every day and that is stated goal is  two hundred pounds more than his age on his birthday it has been reported and apparently witnessed by their members of congress  he says what he thinks sometimes to the side that you may be on but nevertheless you can count on that from him and frankly today's procedure i think substantiated that and i think that's to his credit now being on the other side of the aisle i don't know whether i should wish him success in his next endeavor not maybe i can wish him success in the only first election that he has to go through and maybe not the second and therefore i'll cover myself but at any rate i i didn't realize it just came over me when we were walking back over here this is the last markup that i'm going to be associated with in all likelihood revolve around native wine issues is something i guess i certainly could never have calculated it must have been stated this is my fiftieth anniversary and in hawaii and with the lions when you become part of their family you don't have to be blood you're part of that family forever that to have been a member of the people's house is an honor and a secret privilege i was the last person to be sworn in by tip o'neill before he retired as a result of the election which i managed to win and lose on the same day i will tell you that my mother told me that she was sure i could do it  not just a great lesson in democracy but part of a free people in a free country in a body that you could only be elected to every member here i have the most profound respect and affection for everyone here because this truly is the people's house you can be appointed to the senate you have to be elected to the house of representatives and so every member here represents that faith and trust that i'm speaking of i shall never forget anyone here nor the privilege of being in the house no matter what happens to me for the rest of my life the proudest thing that i'll ever be able to say was i was a member of the people's house thank you very that chair once again wishes everybody merry christmas happy hanukkah happy kwanzaa and happy holidays to all and thank you the committee on natural resources stands adjourned for this