good morning the legislative hearing by the subcommittee on fisheries wildlife in or sions will now come to order the subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on the implementation of the two thousand and six amendments to the high seas drift nets fishing moratorium protection act related illegal unregulated and unreported fishing and to seek input on h r fifty seven forty one the shark conservation act of two thousand and eight so into committee rules for g the chairman of the ranking minority member will make opening statements if any other members have statements i invite you to submit them for the record the subcommittee on fisheries wildlife and oceans meets this morning to hear testimony regarding illegal unregulated and unreported also known as i u u fishing and on h r fifty seven forty one the shark conservation act of two thousand and eight the i you u u fishing undermines the united states conservation focused approach to fisheries management and its fisherman unsustainable fishing practices by foreign fishing fleets adversely affect stocks that migrate between the u explosive exclusive economic zone the easy and the high seas this problem can be particularly acute in places like wam where the easy is vast and the coastguard despite their best efforts will never have sufficient resources to patrol all of our waters as a result i you you fishers are free riders who benefit unfairly from the sacrifices made by the us fishermen and others for the sake of proper fisheries conservation and management congress made some changes in the law in two thousand and six to help combat the growing problem of you you fishing and we look forward to hearing about the implementation of those provisions today and illegal fishing practice that is a particular interest at this hearing is the practice of shark finning currently banned under the shark finning prohibition act of two thousand and by many regional fisheries management or zation the shark finning prohibition act prohibits u s fisherman from removing the fins of sharks and discarding the carcass at sea and from landing or transporting shark fins without the corresponding carcass since the adoption of that last several regional fisheries management organizations have also adopted similar prohibitions both domestically and internationally there have been challenges associated with the implementation of these prohibitions that are intended to be addressed through my bill the shark conservation act of two thousand and eight addressing the practice of shark finning is imperative  conserving sharks and the marine eco systems of which they are a part i'm grateful that several colleagues who serve on this subcommittee have co sponsored h r fifty seven forty one including mr fall of the vega mr abercrombie and mr pallone and i look forward to working with all of the members of the subcommittee to strengthen the conservation of sharks i also look forward to hearing from our witnesses on how you you fishing in addition to shark finning good be better addressed in closing i would like to show a clip from the documentary shark water which depicts the cruel and the wasteful practice of shark finning  practice i myself have witnessed and i think it provides a context for discussion on this issue today and demonstrates why it is so important for us to work cooperatively in the united states and around the world to bring thank you very much and now as chairwoman i recognize mr brown and the ranking republican member for any statement that he may have like mencia today we will hear a testimonial to issues issues of illegal unregulated and o reporting on the amount of species of fish that are being caught cheetahs need to be identified and stop countries that allow or encourage are you fission prices need to be done and we need to work with them to change their practices i have the the open to lupul and the lord on about a problem with the law and here the case i support fixing the problem but we need to be careful have that when he thinks it probably did not intentionally cause other problems as an example a concern has been raised at the present language in the bill might affect the legally landed sharks your pants could be shipped after they have been landed and accounted for i do not think that was intended in legislation and i want to work with the chairwoman to mov oceans and fisheries bureau of oceans environment and science u s department of state captain michael j legal chief of the office of law enforcement the u s coast guard dr shelley clark division of biology imperial college london mr chuck fox senior officer pugh environment group mr robert hayes general consul coastal conservation association i thank you all for being here today i will start by recognizing our first witness this morning dr lent to testify for five minutes and i would note for all of the witnesses that the timing lights on the table will indicate when your time is concluded and we would appreciate your cooperation in complying with the limits that have been set as we have many witnesses to hear from today be assured that your full written statement will be submitted for the hearing and before we begin with the testimonies for those standing in the back would you please come forward there are seats around this issue table here if you would like to be seated hearings can be long and you may need a seat before the end and now dr lent thank you chairwoman representative brown and members of the committee for the opportunity to discuss the importance of shark conservation and the many challenges of international fishery management particularly combat ng are you  fishing my oral testimony will focus on three areas know as implementation of the new international provisions of bags and even some of our successes and challenges in international fishery management and finally i will touch briefly on the shark conservation act regarding the two mags and stevens act i want to thank the subcommittee including strong language in the new magazines act this gives us a lot of new tools to work collaboratively with other countries to strengthen international fisheries management the act bolsters our fisheries enforcement program so that we can better combat you around the globe since the act was signed into law in january two thousand and seven no it has been working to develop regulations that will allow us to conduct identification and certification procedures for countries who vessels have been engaged in i use fishing and by catch we hope to publish the rule this summer we will conduct consultations with identify nations and work with them to address you and bycatch concerns if corrective actions are not taken the united states can proceed with positive and with negative certification with potential to dr len would you please come forward a little bit speak closer to the microphone thank you one of the more exciting activities we've been involved in s implementation of the act is capacity building in other countries for example in latin american and caribbean countries no one has provided training on the use of turtle excluder devices and circle hooks for a long line fisheries to reduce sea turtle bycatch we've also assisted in the training of fishery observers on board foreign fleets we conducted train observer training and south pacific islands vietnam and just last week we completed two weeks of training in ghana i would like to note that the f y o nine president's budget loads two point six million to combat are you fishing one point one million of this will go towards strengthening international fisheries and forstmann this will help us investigate to ensure that we are not in importing illegal products turning now to international fisheries management and some of our successes and challenges we've focused largely on working through a multilateral process through the regional fishery management organizations or our f m o's we've made progress but many challenges remain noncompliance with conservation measures is a big concern we're hoping that ongoing are a film zero performance reviews will help in point the changes that we need to address these gaps increase data real data reporting requirements such as vessel monitoring system can also help us respond to noncompliance one critical aspect of international fisheries management is effective foresman know as office of law enforcement is routinely engaged in international investigations targeting unscrupulous business operations engaged in the international trade of  products and trafficking in protected marine resources such efforts typically involve the application of the lacy act and have resulted in blocking such imports despite these efforts several gaps in our enforcement capabilities hamper our ability to effectively combat  you fishing one of these gaps is insufficient civil penalties under many statutes which tender our ability to deter illegal imports violate touching now on shark conservation u s is a leader in domestic and international shark conservation in addition to the ban on shark fishing no one has implemented a number of other domestic regulations to conserve shark stocks such as catch quotas here restrictions and limited entry internationally we've worked hard in the practice of shark finning and to reduce shark bycatch i want to thank the subcommittee for your efforts on the shark conservation act of two thousand and eight this bill highlights your interest and commitment to shark conservation and your willingness to ensure that noah and other relevant agencies have all the tools we need to continue to pursue effective shark conservation management and important know as carefully reviewing the shark conservation act and we hope to work with you further to ensure that we fully understand the intent of the bill and to refine the language to ensure that the mandates will be dalio represented brown and members of the committee this includes my statement i look forward to working with you the public the fishing industry and our international counterparts on these important issues i look forward to answering your questions thank you thank you very much dr land for your testimony mr bolton it is a pleasure to welcome you before the committee and you are now recognized to testify for five minutes thank you madam chairwoman members of the subcommittee i do have a written statement and that's got to be included in the record this morning i will highlight the main points we too are grateful to the subcommittee for calling attention to the problem of ai you fishing as well as the need to improve conservation and management of sharks both issues represent real challenges but we believe that the administration and congress working together with us stakeholders and other nations can meet these challenges you use fishing undermines effective fisheries management along with overcapacity of the world's fishing fleets it is the main impediment to achieving sustainable fisheries are you fishing occurs in all fisheries in u s waters in waters of other nations and on the high seas united states has made progress in dealing with our using both at home and elsewhere but more needs to be done through f a o we have created a toolbox for combating you use fishing flag state measures coastal state measures ports state measures and market related measures governments have been using these tools on their own and through the r f and we have seen improvements in monitoring control and surveillance of fishing vessels restrictions vessels to include unique vessel identifiers and comprehensive ownership information we are leading efforts to negotiate a new agreement on ports state measures for you fishing madam chairman chairwoman here is a good example that may be of particular interest to you the western and central pacific fisheries commission which manages fisheries for tuna's and similar species over a huge area the pacific ocean is working to implement a comprehensive suite of requirements to improve control over the cells operating in those fisheries these measures include agreed procedures to allow enforcement officials from the united states or any other member of that are to board and inspect fishing vessels on the high seas in that region inspect to check for compliance with fishing rules i know that the united states chaired the group that produced this landmark achievement we know that congress shares our desire to crack down on i use fishing in that regard we asked congress to help us in our effort to strengthen the r s and of those four despite their shortcomings r s m o's remain the only feasible means for managing international fisheries but they are only as effective as the member governments allow them to be one r s m the interim american tropical tuna commission adopted a new treaty the anteater convention to strengthen its role in the senate has provided advice and consent to this treaty we urge congress to pass implementing legislation turning to sharks as you said they're particularly susceptible to over exploitation they're typically long lived and produce few offspring some fisheries target sharks most others result in at least some shark bycatch some shark populations have declined drastically and most are slow to recover once depleted there is little effective regulation of shark fisheries or effective limitation of shark bycatch the wasteful practice of sinning and make matters worse we need to do better while we have not made much progress on overall shark conservation and management we have made progress on the sending issue congress passed the shark finning prohibition act of two thousand as we've already heard the united states then secured a series of shark finning bands at the international level through various r s m o's we are pursuing efforts to strengthen compliance with those bans indeed the united nations has underscored the need for greater compliance we are aware that the shark conservation act of two thousand aid office seeks to strengthen compliance with shark finning mans a goal we certainly support the department of state looks forward to working with congress and other agencies  considering this bill but shark finning bans are just one piece of a large puzzle we must work with other countries to collect basic data on sharks we must also work through the are for most to develop implemented for us a range of conservation and management measures for sharks we must use all available international mechanisms for this purpose one is the coalition against wildlife trafficking which aims to end illegal trade in wildlife products including shark sightings is another tool t on international trade in endangered species were using the asia pacific economic cooperation forum and also the convention on the conservation of migratory species let me conclude with a call for greater assistance to developing countries to help them combat are you fishing and to work with us on shark conservation and management given the nature of these challenges such assistance will ultimately benefit the united states as well thank you very much i'd be happy to take any question of law enforcement here at coast guard headquarters and it is a pleasure to appear before you today to discuss the coastguards role in fisheries and forstmann in our contribution to shore conservation and management efforts in forcing living marine resource laws and regulations as a longstanding coast guard mission in force from presence is focused within the three point four million square mile the largest in the world as well as in key areas of the house in these areas we strive to provide effective and professional lives in foresman for the purpose of advancing national goals for the conservation of management of living marine resources and their environments we recognize that the message and internationalize fishing activities have adverse effects on marine ecosystems and jeopardize economic survival of coastal communities that are reliant on local fisheries for their livelihood domestically we force fisheries laws in conjunction with know as office for law enforcement  general counsel for enforcement litigation as well as the department of justice one of our goals is to provide a level playing field for legitimate fissures in the estimated sixty billion dollar domestic fishing industry while promoting compliance with regulations to protect mari mammals endangered species and marine sanctuaries internationally the coast guard works closely with the department of state bureau of oceans environment and scientific affairs and the office of marine conservation to develop active international partnerships  development of bilateral enforcement agreements and participation in regional fisheries management organizations tackle the challenges of threat we applaud and support no one the department of state in their efforts to bring additional tools to bear combating the global threat of  fishing their efforts facilitate the enforcement in the delivery of consequences to those found in gauging illegal fishing activity which is critical which is a critical element of the u s government's overall approach to the threat forstmann since associated things to a particular shark is nearly impossible once it has been mutilated additionally it is extremely difficult for coast guard boarding personnel to make accurate way space calculations for shark species soley on the number of fins threat by participating in a concerted domestic and international effort to develop and forcible legal regimes foster partnerships expand our maritime demain awareness and maintain enough active enforcement presence because what will continue to work closely with  the state department other stakeholders in our international partners to help achieve national and international objectives affecting fisheries worldwide world's oceans are truly a global commons requiring a global approach toward their conservation and management in the face of increasing resource scarcity fishing is a growing threat to the long term viability of fish stocks around the globe that the u s coast guard stands ready to to confront its inclusion of coast guard supports the intent of h r five seven four one the shark conservation act of two thousand and eight to improve the conservation and management of sharks we look forward to working with know of the state department committee members and other stakeholders in providing our parties to help improve current management and con you for the opportunity to testify before you today i look forward to your questions thank you very much captain de leo i will now recognize myself and members for any questions they may wish to ask the witnesses alternating between the majority in the minority and allowing five minutes for each member should the members need more time we will have a second round of questions i'd like to begin with a question for  lan i appreciated your itemization of the gaps in noise in forstmann capabilities relative to i you you fishing and look forward to working with you to improve on this way ssion could you expand upon no was efforts to prevent seafood products resulting from i you you fishing from entering the us market we are operating on a number of fronts to combat the imports of i your product we work closely with other agencies including coast guard and u s customs we have an expansive investigative unit in oily and the office of law enforcement we also work with other countries to through the  surveillance network to collect information we will be able to significantly increase our capabilities with homeland security a new initiative called the international trade data system right t d s that will allow us to have one final point at which we confirm and verify that imports are adequately documented it will allow us also in real time and perhaps even in advance to identify imports that are that are coming in we have had a number of successes under our present capabilities but again as i noted there are some gaps in our enforcement capabilities which we would like to work with you to address so that we can better in force these imports traditionally we've done no one fisheries enforcement domestically at home on the ports but with increasing imports and us being a major market we do need these additional tools we look forward to working with you on the thank you thank you i have another question for you since the passage of the shark finning prohibition many differing interests have raised concerns regarding the five percent presumption and its effectiveness as an enforcement standard now h r fifty seven forty one proposes to delete it for that reason but this has caused some concern that a weaker in forstmann standard might be adopted if the presumption were removed what does the agency think is the most effective method for enforcement of the shark finning prohibition thank you for the question chairwoman but we are against adding the legislation to ensure that we understand the intent and the impact of the legislation the way it is written we do have some concern that as drafted it could hamper the enforcement of the finning ban so we would like to work with you on that we're also concerned that as written the legislation could hamper the legal trade of fans which could be transported on vessels which are not which are not fishing vessels i should note that we have had success with the current measures on the books in enforcing and think will be a step forward and looking forward to working with know and costarred in the implementation of the united states remains one of the three biggest markets for the import of fish we have a series that the international level of documentation schemes designed to help track the movement of fisheries product and international trade it is an improving system but it is not also full proof yet one step we are trying to take for certain fisheries is to make the paper work proceed on electronic basis and that can help us directly the timing issues thank you captain do you have any comments to m fishermen to land sharks with fins attached is clearly the simplest way for us to ensure compliance with the law thank you very much the chair now recognizes the ranking member the gentleman from south carolina mr brown and thank you very much your witness i was out of the room but i was watching you on the monitor so i was still trying to do two things i want to thank you for i think you cleared up some concerns that i had to about what happens to the legal aspect of for my understanding is that this would give the authority to our in forstmann agents to investigate not just what's happening on fishing vessels but what's happening in warehouses and fish fish because once the product is actually off the vessel and in commercial trade it's important for in person agents to be able to inspect and search and see what's going on in these commercial operation bolton mentioned we have increasingly for the species that are the greatest concern such as patagonian to fish the chilean sea bass in atlantic bluefin tuna we have a tracking system to catch documentation system that goes from the fishing boat all the way to the retailer so we have in some cases documentation that helps us ensure that these fish are legally caught in other cases it may just be one piece of evidence in an overall case that we're investigating  my understanding is that it is it is indeed fatal i heard a case of one hammerhead shark that was pulled and that had a shark fin that didn't grow back but it had survived a fin being removed other friends were still intact and he was living i don't think so he got caught again offenders let me start thank you for the question sir let me stop by saying that you itself recognizes the challenges it faces in proving compliance by the vassals with both domestic rules and the international rules they are in fact moving to institute greater control over their own vessels to combat i e fishing a process we support and hope comes to fruition we do call attention to the shortcomings both at the international level of multilateral level such as the international convention for the conservation lack tuna and also in bilateral meetings there are limits to how much we can press another government or in this case the european union to change its practices we also need to recognise that we we don't have one hundred percent compliance either are you fishing occurs everywhere to act so for vessels that are found whether they are domestic or foreign flags or fishing in our easy we have brought statutory authority to take law enforcement action for those vessels that are trying to skirt the flag doing so we are again able to exercise u s authority in jurisdiction to ensure compliance with u s laws operating on the high seas under another vessels we're constrained by existing would be the best place to start are expressing our concerns in bringing forth any evidence that we have that these countries are not abiding by the shark finning ban again if that doesn't work then we have other measures in place you know lateral tools and  south africa and probably others that i don't have at my disposal now and in addition as dr line to said through the interim merican tropical tuna commission international commission for the conservation of land of tuna's the northwest atlantic fisheries organization in the western central pacific fisheries commission we have achieved internet at the international level dance on shark finning one other are at the commission for the conservation of antarctic marine living resources has prohibited all directed fishing for sharks pending scientific review so we are not alone in our desire to move forward on this issue did you name japan or china i did not so they are cooperating they are members of all of the arsenal as i mentioned yes and for their vessels operating in fisheries regulated by those are eskimos they have accepted bans on shark finning to under these agreements through something known as you know and fish stocks agreement and we have our own domestic measures including the measures that you're considering now in the shark conservation act of two thousand and eight that might add to that we also have the usual deal do you feel that broadening the ban on possession of shark fins to any vessel under u s jurisdiction addresses the loophole made parents in the recent ninth circuit court of appeals decision on shark  finning are these concerns with such a change are these concerns with such a change i understand there was a vessel found with fins but they claim that they were not fishing so the ninth circuit court a greed and let them off so do you feel that broadening the ban on possession of shark fins to any vessel under u s jurisdiction addresses this loophole cargo vessel bound for honolulu sailed into the u s easy from hong kong carrying legally obtained shark fins with those fins be subject to seizure those decisions would not be made by the guard if we want to board and we found things when there was any reason to believe they were in violation of u s law or other international bilateral agreements we would work closely with know in the department of justice to make the appropriate determination in terms of final disposition for those  as the office that would permit foreign fishing in pacific insular areas as a mechanism for reducing you you fishing by foreign vessels how many office have been negotiated and has this proved a useful mechanism for reducing fishing in our waters thank you madam chairwoman i'm sorry to say that not a single pacific and area fisheries agreement has been none of the other countries who might be interested in fishing for those species in those areas has expressed any interest in doing so one possible reason for that is the terms of the magnusson act relating to the onerous and it seems to me that it may not be a good enough deal for the other countries to generate interest on their part in fishing in u s waters under those terms thank you i want to thank the witnesses very much for their comments and answers to our questions today and if you have any of your statements were not completely read then they will be entered into the record and thank you very much and i would like to invite the second panel to testify the committee now welcomes the second panel on our hearing this morning and we'd like to welcome dr shelley clark division of biology imperial college london mr chuck fox senior officer environment group mr robert hayes general consul coastal conservation association mr stetson national fisheries institute i thank you wall for being here today and we'll begin with dr clarke and i'm sure you heard the first panel have five minutes the timing light is there and we will enter your complete statement into the record and i do want to thank the first panel for staying within their time limit thank you and dr clarke you may begin distinguished members of the subcommittee thank you for this opportunity to speak to you today about shark conservation and illegal fishing my name is shelley clarke and i'm a fisheries scientist based in japan and hong kong in addition to holding a visiting researcher appointment at imperial college london i work for a variety of governmental and non governmental clients and serve as an executive committee member on the shark specialist group i was the first scientist to offer a statistically based estimate of the number of sharks utilized by the shark fin trade worldwide some of my other research projects have included studies of shark catchers and handling practices in japan utilization of shark products in southeast asia estimation of illegal fishing off russia and investigation of china's role in the global fisheries and fish processing and in summarizing my submitted testimony i'd like to highlight the following points while the ideal approach to shark conservation would be to study and manage fishing activities the dearth of data on shark catches effectively prohibits this approach in most cases instead it makes sense to research and regulate the highest value shark product that is shark fins as a proxy until better catch data are available the shark fin trade utilizes a wide variety of species but relies heavily on just fourteen of them several of which are vulnerable or endangered over at least some part of their range since depletions of some species are likely to be masked by substitution of more prolific species we will not necessarily see a drop in the overall level of the trade when species specific depletions occur the total number of sharks traded worldwide ranges from twenty six to seventy three million per year these figures are three to four times higher than the catch catches of sharks recorded in the un food and agriculture organization global catch database probably the most abundant shark the blue shark is estimated to be already exploited at or near its maximum sustainable yield demand for shark fin in china appears to be increasing with population growth and higher standards of living were unable to track shark fin trade levels in china just a kalisch is but indications in china and data from hong kong show that the quantity of fins being traded is declining shark catches are also declining and while there may be alternative explanations for this for example higher fuel costs leading to less fishing effort the observed pattern sounds a clear warning to scientists concerned by localised start to stock depletions about possible over exploitation on a global scale it's not certain whether fitting regulations particularly those that are not well in force are having an effect on shark fin trade and shark conservation despite several successful prosecutions for violation in the us in my view global in forstmann offending restrictions remains minimal and finning both within and outside regulated areas and out of continue having your view the current draft of the shark conservation act of two thousand and eight i'd like to suggest the following points for the committee consideration first it appears that by striking the word fishing from the current text the prohibition against possession of shark fins would apply to any vessel thereby rendering it illegal to transport a shark fin without its carcass at any time i would suggest the committee explore alternative wording which would prohibit the trans shipment of shark fins without the corresponding carcass but allow illegal legally land to be subsequently carried on transport vessels as commodities for example in trade with backwards in terms of shark conservation in that it would seem to open the door to a more relaxed standard being applied for this reason i advocate a requirement that be attached to carcasses as i believe it's the most practical and effective option and in fact have witnessed sharks being lads with their attached as standard practice in many asian fisheries i also note it's a requirement in australia and it was specified in the state of hawaii shark finning law in two thousand that finn's be attached finally regarding the identification of nations catching sharks which do not have shark conservation plans comparable to those in the us while it would be tempting to assume that a national plan of action for sharks in any one country would be a sufficient basis for shark conservation there are nations with large  catches and national plans of action for sharks which do not require full card shark catch reporting do not perform routine stock assessments and do not have any meaningful shark management measures in therefore i would encourage the committee to identify more r bust indicators of a nation's commitment to shark conservation beyond simply having a national plan of action which encompass not only planning but implementation and forstmann of management measures thank you again for the opportunity to offer my thoughts on these topics thank you very much dr clark and now i would like to hear from mr fox your turn to testify thank you madam chair i am truck fox and i serve as a senior officer with  environment group thank you very much for this opportunity to share our views on are you fishing and shark conservation at the outset we would like to thank the chair and other members of the subcommittee for their leadership on fisheries conservation the united states is widely recognized as having among the strongest conservation policies in the world the reauthorization of the magnuson stevens act reaffirmed this leadership role and the subcommittee is to be commended we would also like to thank the chair for her leadership in introducing proposed amendments to the shark finning prohibition act we view this initiative is externally timely and we strongly support the bills and act meant in our brief comments this morning we would like to first discuss fishing and then turn to shark conservation the united states has a relatively robust science based fisheries management regime international fisheries management pales by comparison international institutions implemented inconsistent patchwork of authorities that have so far proven ineffective for conserving fisheries and protecting the world's oceans are you fishing is defined generally as activities which are inconsistent with international law or policy it is rampant and likely growing are you fishing undermines the fundamental integrity of fisheries management institutions in many different ways over the past several years many nations have supported new actions to constrain fishing most notably is a pending regulatory proposal by the european union which simply prohibits the importation of all fisheries products into the e u which is the world's largest seafood market there are other important emerging initiatives which are identified in my written statement however we do not believe that the collective impact of these actions will produce a truly effective system to come back fishing this conclusion is based fundamentally upon the continued lack of a coordinated international regime to trace fishery products and to assure compliance with fishery conservation policies we recommend that the subcommittee consider additional authority to prohibit the importation of products into the united states present law allows the united states to initiate trade sanction procedures against entire nations certified to be engaged in the u fishing however history suggests that this approach is rarely used if the subcommittee were to adopt a straightforward prohibition on  it would likely have a very significant impact throughout the world the e u and the us two of the three largest importers of fisheries products closing these markets would reduce the economic liability of are you fishing significantly and it would send a powerful message to other major importing nations to follow suit on the subject of shark fishing as the committee has heard this fishery remains largely unregulated throughout the world it is one of the examples one of the worst examples of the international community's failure to manage a fishery which has serious implications for the health of ocean ecosystems shark fins are the most valuable part of most sharks the all too common practice of finning lead this subcommittee to enact a prohibition in two thousand the law included a provision designed to assist in the enforcement by establishing a so called rebuttable presumption that finning had occurred if the weight of the fins exceeded five percent of the dressed weight of the carcasses the european union adopted similar restrictions in two thousand and three except that it's rebuttable presumption was about twice the size of that of the united states and unfortunately most of the regional fisheries institutions that you heard about earlier today adopted fifteen bands which accommodated the weaker standard many shark scientists and fisheries and enforcement officials believe that a simple requirement to land sharks with their fins naturally attached is easier to enforce and would improve scientific data collection significantly we share the view that the so called fins attached policy is the best way to assure compliance with the prohibition on phinney finally we would like to close with a very strong endorsement of the proposed procedures to establish importation restrictions for nations without comparable shark conservation measures the unfortunate reality is that while shark finning is illegal throughout much of the world shark fishing remains largely unregulated this provision will likely have a significantly positive impact in encouraging nations and regional fisheries bodies to adopt and in for sustainable shark fishing policies thank you again for your leadership and our opportunity to present our views thank you very between one nine hundred seventy seven and the spring of one thousand nine hundred eighty eight as a result of domestic implementation of quotas for the first time seventy five percent of the us fleet had a violation not of those violations were being enforced and there was absolutely no compliance congress saying that that was a problem provided the agency with authority to go ahead and she's boats for the domestic laws to go ahead and do something about compliance international what they have not provided is the will to do it there's no will to go ahead and do the broader issue now everyone here has a different definition of are you fishing recently there was a request to the federal register notice to define are you fishing consistent with the magnuson act reinterpretation i do you fishing is not simply pirate boats out there fishing either by flags and came under flags of convenience or fishing  in u s waters it's much broader than that embassador bolton said it very well what we have is universal i you you fishing we have an us waters by us boats we have it internationally we have it within our f m o's and we have it without we have an enormous problem in the ocean and what although i commend you for your bill focusing on sharks what you're doing is wagging the dog by grabbing the last bit of the tail the dog is very very large here let me describe to you what i think is a solution  we are now in an age in which electronics and computers and communication have reached a level that was unimaginable to anybody thirty years ago we have the ability to track virtually every fish that's caught in the world what our if ammos do is they set catch limits after they set those catch limits there is some attempt by the nation states to determine whether they're m much but that product goes in international trade and is absolutely free to be put into international trade and do international markets until the end ited states can develop an international agreement and international understanding to fix the trade in international illegal product we're not going to solve this problem we will pile domestic measure after domestic measure we will give all sorts of authority to people but frankly we're not going to solve the big problem your your photo up here of shark finning was dramatic but did you read the sentence at the end of the sentence at the end said that shark big trouble so being the shark finning ban isn't going to get him out of that trouble putting  her national in trade ensuring that you can comply with all of those quota measures and the individual measures that are being put out by that those are a family that's what's going to do it and i had some suggestions in my testimony to do that thank you thank you thank you very much mr hayes and now we have mr tinkham from the national fisheries institute to testify thank you madam chair it's a pleasure to be here today with you just for the record i'm steps in to come on the director of international affairs for the national fisheries institute here in washington where the largest u s fishing association and our members are engaged in the fisheries value chain from as we like to say from net to table i also have a sort of an additional duty as the serving as the executive secretary of the international coalition fisheries associations a group of ten or fifteen fisheries associations from major fishing countries many of them are somewhat like nephi and we're accredited in the u n system  as a non governmental organization so even though i retired from government in october of two thousand and six i've continued to be involved in international fisheries negotiations  either as members as a member of u s delegations to international meetings or as an accredited member of a of the it for delegation to those negotiations  and if i members are absolutely committed to stopping are you fishing we perhaps better than others realise the penalties it imposes on those who do follow the rules by diminishing the amount of fish available for them to harvest and we also recognize that are you fishing rewards the those who do not follow the rules by allowing them to to fish outside quota limits and to receive financial rewards for their  illegal activity we're proud of the fact that the united states is a leader in international forums where we try to deal with these problems we're proud of the fact that when our negotiators bring back  an international commitment it is it's generally if there are changes in us law including implementing legislation congress and the administration work together to to move the ball forward and to tackle those problems and the executive branch implements the regulation implements with regulations those international commitments and they're enforced are fisherman by and large follow the rules at the same time we echo mr bolton's request or concern or call for capacity building assistance internationally we need not only to have the stick of the regulatory regimes that have been discussed this morning but we also need to to offer a hand of assistance and particularly i think within government we need to coordinate the interagency process to administer that aid and deliver that aid in a better way we're not good at it in spite of the fact that we all mean well i want to just touch on what i might refer to as the law of unintended consequences some have have approached the point i'm trying to make in different ways this morning but as one considers measures to deal with these global problems things that you don't certified sustainable fishery tried to move that product from dutch harbor alaska to a customer in europe unbeknownst to them the vessel that they contracted to transport that catch was on a  blacklist a negative list a list of vessels not permitted to land catch in europe the transport vessel that vessel got to germany it was almost half the catch was unloaded the authorities found out about it had to put the catch back on and send the vessel on its way attempts to unload a vessel in morocco or unsuccessful a week transpired and eventually that the catch was landed but that the problem was  of a list of vessels prohibited to enter european ports not being widely known widely publicized or widely available to other people in the industry we need to think about downstream consequences  of our actions in the process much like today's process the hearing on your your shark your proposed shark legislation three quick comments on that we're concerned that the bill as drafted others have said this may prevent trade in legally caught sharks including those in the u s the easy we also suggest that requiring trade sanctions for countries that don't meet u s standards for shark conservation might lead to the same types of w t f world trade organization confrontations that we encountered with some of our total protection measures there it may be possible to develop internationally agreed standards for shark conservation and  thank you thank you very much mr tinkham i have a few questions i have questions for dr clark given your experience with the international trade in shark fins do potential trade sanctions in concert with the domestic standing ban offer substantial conservation benefits well i'm not sure that trade sanctions are required or really the best way to go but i definitely support the idea of using trade measures in some form and using trade as a lever to influence what's happening to sharks because i very much believe that the fate of world shar populations lies in the hands of the chinese population and their demand for fans is what's driving most of the shark catches around the world yes the sharks are caught accidentally in many fisheries but they are fanned on purpose and that purpose is to supply the chinese market so to the extent of the u s can use its influence to try to shape that demand in china through influencing the chinese government i think that should be supported by dr clark i have a couple of  questions for my information what are the cost of fins now when they're well it varies a lot even small sharks are fans even sharks that have been born yet target have their d are there other parts of the shark that can be used besides the ins yes shark meat is used in many countries it's not very well utilized here in the u s but any whales oil liver oil is  cosmetics and a variety of industrial uses the cartilage is used to make medicinal products the skin is used for leather it's one of the products you can see why they just throw the car out there and if you know course i know it won't bring as much money as thin the other question i have for you is the us is responsible for only a small fraction of the global trade in shark fins will u s restrictions be effective at changing the dynamics of this global trade and if so how well i believe the trade is very dynamic in fact in my testimony i've shown an example of how there was a change from the u s in the supply of u s shark fins to hong kong through imports from the u s to hong kong in response to the hawaiian state shark fin prohibition in two thousand and then followed by the u s national law  i think where the u s can be particularly influential is as a leader in showing that finning is is not the best way to make use of sharks we should have full utilization including use of shark made and i think what we've seen with the u s is experience is that allowing the fins to be detached from the shark carcass creates a lot of inforce many problems so to the extent that the u s could maybe be the first or not the first actually australia has since all how do you policy thank you thank you dr clarke mr fox in your testimony you expressed support for the provision of h r fifty seven forty one that removes the rebuttal presumption from the law are you concerned that removing it could lead to a we enforcement standard and if so how could congress ensure that this does not happen i asked this question earlier on the first panel it's a very for a fair point our experience with the robot a presumption in some workshops that we hosted among scientists and enforcement officers is that it is very very complicated to implement and that in fact scientists lose a lot of very important data by having the fin separated from the sharks it's not surprising that it's very hard to tell what species of shark you have if you just have a fan and it's for that reason that we believe ultimately the right solution is safe in attached policy now whether the committee would want to include specific language like that in the bill or not we will respect the committee's interest in that that would be the ideal outcome would be to include some language like that there would be other ways to do it and we could work with the committee in the committee staff on that the national fishery service to their credit in their testimony they seem to support completely finn's attach policy for the atlantic and gulf coast which was very encouraging they were a little quieter on the pacific territories thank you thank you very much i have a couple other questions but  first of all and if i members would support continued ability to move products sell product transport trade product that's legally taken  however that is not to say that there couldn't be some tightening of the rules too to ensure that illegally taken product doesn't get mixed in with the legally taken product how you do that is i have some ideas but it's pretty complicated and i am not sure that that this morning is the time or the place to go through that generally the answer to the question is yes we do support legislation that would permit continued trade in legally caught shark did i get to all  the shore could be used for the other purposes it was it what i got it from you i think the fins attached policy would encourage the use of shark meat which would be in compliance with the full utilization policy  advocated by the fisheries and agriculture organization under the international action plan for sharks i don't see a need to remove the fin from the carcass at sea i think that can be done in part and in fact shark fin traders  say that they appreciate when the fin is cut carefully to remove the meat from the fan because if you don't remove the meat carefully from the fan you can taint the product and the price will actually go down meaning there's a wastage there so i think th fins and carcasses should be brought to port in a separate attached fashion the fin can be detached in port and if that whole process is legal i see no reason why that fin cannot then be dried or frozen and shipped on a container vessel to china for processing and consumption do you think the bill that we have now will allow that well again not a lawyer so i would defer to those with more expertise than in response to that i'm sitting here listening to a very technical debate about an issue which at least factually i would argue that most people in this room don't have a lot of the facts this is an issue that it seems to me begs for regulation this is the kind of issue i think you ought to turn back to the national marine fisheries service and regulate as to how to do this in an open public forum and get some information from a broad spectrum of american fisherman and processors that would you know result in you know a rule that would be not only fair but effective  frank i i i don't have a particular fix i know that the fix that was suggested at c won't work i know that some of the other suggestions i've heard today i don't think they work either but what i guess i'm suggesting is that the stent that you can that you modify this bill to require the national marine fisheries service to develop regulations which will ensure the maximum model compliance that you can achieve in the u coastal part of honshu and in japan kesennuma and that is exactly what happens the fish is landed fins intact and then the accounting of short sharp mortality can take place then it's processed in in the various parts go their separate way so that that's a model that is practiced i know the japanese the hong kong market so perhaps that's a model that we might draw some lessons but mr brown i think this is a very important point to emphasize because my colleagues mr hayes and mister stetson from the f i a this is an area where we all agree completely we don't yet internationally have a system with a high degree of confidence that can trace fisheries products the example of the blacklisted vessel trying to land at a european port there was no website if you will to get on to find out if in fact this vessel was blacklisted or not different information is ours by different nations there really isn't a coordinated international system one of the areas where i also agree strongly is the solution to this ideally would be an international treaty having been involved in some of these for the last four years that is a daunting task to think about how to do that we have a tremendous power here in the united states because we are the third largest market for seafood in the world the european union which is the largest market for seafood in the world is right now implementing our you regulations that leaves japan and china if we can start as market states controlling the importation of all your products i think this will complement all of the other tools that are out there dealing with flag states port states and the like harvest then you know it's just a small portion of the problem  i think the ranking member and i have a question here for mr fox i thank you for your constructive criticism of the sanctions procedures authorized in the high speed drift net fishing  moratorium protection act would you please expand upon your suggestion that congress consider authorizing additional more narrowly targeted authority to prohibit the importation of the i u u fisheries products similar to the proposed wildlife products more generally it's a very awkward and frankly too powerful tool perhaps to think of the united states as wanting to impose trade sanctions against an entire nation and what i was arguing in my testimony is we might want to think of a much more tailored mechanism so that the united states can set in place a system that isn't going against all of the products from any one nation but is in fact being able to target individual vessels individual companies or individual shipments of illegal products one could imagine that in fact the shipment an illegal shipment comes into new york and it might be under current law that because this is an illegal shipment the coast guard and others can in fact confiscate this product or take actions against this but my understanding is it's a very complicated procedure to do that it is not a straightforward procedure by which the united states can use to prohibit the importation of these products that's what the e u is doing right now and most people i talk to think that this will in fact go a long way to setting in place an international traceability scheme that will give us all the very data that we want to be able to trace fisheries products i will tell you one other important element in the e u that you don't see as much here in the united states but it is growing with the wal marts of the world and that is that distributors wholesalers retailers want to have confidence that the products they are selling to consumers are in fact legal products they right now don't have any way of demonstrating with a high degree of confidence that these products are legal such a traceability scheme like this would in fact allow that to happen as well i have a follow up question has the e u approach you describe been challenged under the w as you can imagine there's been a lot of first of the short answer is the proposal has not formally been adopted yet it was proposed by what we would call the equivalent of our executive branch the commission the european commission last fall it was formally scheduled to be approved by the european council this june there has been extensive analysis of compliance and today all of the internal finding reviews in fact have been found to be in compliance whether in fact somebody will challenge that is a whole other question thank you i have just one more question for our general consul your earlier written testimony is extremely useful in understanding the obstacles we face in implementation by the m o members you offer a way forward in ultimately establishing an international agreement for market controls to ensure that those quotas would be monitored by a monitoring body that would probably be the r f m l and that when those quotas were met that those countries would close their market to any further import of that product use the specific of bluefin tuna the world wildlife fund as estimated that some sixty thousand metric tons of bluefin tuna from the mediterranean go to japan every year the quota for bluefin tuna is about thirty two thousand metric tons and we are aware of the fact that a good portion of that quota is used in europe and say smaller portion is used in the united states so that would mean that you pan is importing a substantial amount of illegal there is no way to to monitor that at this point and what i would suggest is you get this overarching agreement i suspected be some kind of an exemption on article twenty g of the gap it would basically be it could be the form of a treaty i know i have mentioned that but it could be the form of an international agreement it could be the form of in the form of an exception to the w t there's lots of ways to do that but it but essentially it is a tuna the purpose of that meeting was to inform their industry and the harvesting nations that they were killing the bluefin tuna fishery because they were importing too much of it do i think that the japanese government is likely to stand up and offer to do this no do i think that one of our closest trading partners in the world who believes in conservation is going to be attracted to this kind of an idea i've had discussions with lots of people there and they're attracted to it most people are where where i think this committee is and where most people are they look at is a daunting task a task that is so large and so complicated and so difficult we should never endeavor to take it on my view is we ought to take it on and if we did we would find that in five years or so we would be much closer maybe to where mr fox was to get them where we are today thank you thank you very much mr interesting idea i want to thank all of the witnesses on the second panel for their participation in the hearing today you know members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses and we will ask you to respond to these in writing the hearing record will be held open for ten days for these responses if there is no further business before the subcommittee the chairwoman again thank the members of the subcommittee and our witnesses the subcommittee stands adjour