issues and we have provided twenty minutes for sides and i understand it mr johnson you want to start with fourteen minutes and reserve six  and say that it's distinguishable on the ground that the mackintosh reference was not before the court but i wasn't it wasn't clear to me how macintosh made a difference that was more and more research has been done and and as the research has developed there are there is an animal model that has not been on studies that are referenced in the record that have been used to look at the power that and one eight minutes and  authors of the macintosh study found that there was no difference in the kind of clout in these children if the back of the gene mutation and something that might the indicative of someone who well not necessarily because the what the the you article talked about this was a prior study that had been done out of the same lab looked at the same types of minds did not and these might actually went on to have spontaneous seizures without any temperature elevation so based on looking at those two studies the government experts testified that was that was pretty liable evidence that regardless of whether you are some such child was subjected to a fever or some other artificial temperature what the government argued in this case was that the specific as in one in a mutation in these two children were necessarily going to cause them to have a seizure disorder and that was based on dr raymond testimony in that the pencil geneticist that this mutation was the sole cause of the illnesses that were contracted these children and that the vaccination the vaccine had no effect might have the either of the two conditions that issue here that wouldn't necessarily wouldn't necessarily be inconsistent with would it with saying that with respect to these individuals are other if he were aware of reportedly taken that was exactly the same as one of the mutations in these cases and the child did not have the teachers with them that might cause alterative opinion but the fact is there was no such evidence and there are and there result in disease but based on his analysis of these specific mutations that is what allowed him to conclude that it was not could i return you to the point you were making earlier which i didn't understand what you're saying you said it wasn't the government's focusing entirely on the alternative clause part of the case where did the special master go wrong over the special master relied of mainly on the two  and he required a definitive statement that a fever was necessary just true for these mutations and so in that sense he was required us to prove that that by scientific certainty  those cases and then there are deborah mackintosh after reading it and seeing the testimony about mackintosh does not seem to me to support you it really seems to be more support for the government is there some respect in which destined to receive and to develop the disease but the accent nation should not be withheld because we found no evidence that vaccinations before or after disease affect outcome let that seems pretty patients very small number of people the end ten years of age and c f s they were able to follow i remember correctly almost eight hundred children so when you're dealing with it it your view that the earlier the onset of the first seizure the more severe the disorder at this particular point in time well we're ok start with that because you say it doesn't necessarily mean it will occur and then you say at this particular point in time what does it mean i want to go to where meant to happen for ended up and where which is exactly where i started with you which is is this just indicative of the possibility that you will get a disorder or is it the congressman's ordering you said that it was the cause of the disorder and there are a lot of women walking around out there with the brac to gene and they don't get breast cancer cells are there people walking around with this gene mutation who don't get this to sort or then again we need to distinguish produce the protein that it needed to produce which is the protein that's necessary for the sodium channel to stop going to cases above and have his was actually a point mutation that caused the change and then you know after being produced by the and the change and then you know islands were so different the doctoring said it was it was ultimately inevitable that it was going to cause problems in the functioning of this gene of the certain channels so dr so so so your response to the ten year follow up is that it may be true that that the disorder can be triggered by that by the vaccine and can actually get worse because of an early trigger but not in these particular cases my response of the applicable in cases involving the detax and with of the vaccines are different the second reason that our experts the government's experts didn't find the n c s particularly informative in these cases is that those studies were done i believe the original study was done in the late sevent all over the place with respect to the studies he initially when he was cross examined and said that the fact that a study though the study provided a strong support for his opinion but then after the government's experts testified he came back and said that actually it wasn't a very good