wherein they sought a degree whereby they would become proficient in certified as and licensed as a sign language interpreter so they could earn a living as part of that enrollment in they were also in a role in a three hundred hour practical were needed whereby they were to gain experience as a sign language interpreter is in a variety of settings under the supervision of the college as expressed in the course description and the course catalog the practicum never happened the students were left on the road and you'll find nothing in the literature that says that the students  would be left on the wrong to go up find their own practical experience in fact it's clear that they set the office of career services would work with faculty advisor to locate and supervise such opportunities in the students when they mention matriculated in the practicum case and now it's almost three years since we're here in the appellate court in each case the three hundred are practicum was involved in very miller's case there was a separate course in which the to be of monday wednesday friday class and the instructor immediately cancelled all the wins the writing classes and was occasionally there on monday studio some sort of instruction at every stage during the pleadings into two years of attempting to bring the plaintiff if in the bar the players were met with the basic need the play that we what if you had to go pay a hundred thousand for someone else to do the same work and i think you'd have fifty thousand dollars worth of damage just in that instance so i might even just get my fifty thousand dollars if you paid the fifty thousand  a contract even defended this if they were under any circumstances should have been entitled to their tuition back they paid eight thousand dollars in tuition in each case for absolutely nothing and even that part contract or some mix of the two where it's actually so makes of the two because the cases are fairly clear that the relationship between the student and the educational institution is going to contract and that the course descriptions of the catalogs and all of so it is a mix i mean there was no i mean there is to the extent that there is a written description of the practical and the payment of the tuition that could be interpreted as a specific contract for that specific course but i think that the cases are fairly clear that the basic relationship between the student and yet occasional institution is one of contract contractual relationships and then they go on to express the fact that the very careful not to complete some sort of educational malpractise we didn't say that there was an offer of instruction that was sub par we said that there was a contract for specific instruction supervision under the your practicum and it they failed to deliver anything under that you know that situation it's your contract law we submit in addition to the fact that our supreme court has held in the skakel case against the own birth association that educational institutions are in fact engaged in commerce and that the consumer fraud and septa business practices act does have plaintiffs here were not mere applicants for the position they were matriculated students in fact they all graduated from the school but it was on the college level it was always based on promises assurances commitments in exchange for their tuition that they would gain not only the other instruction incident of this but they would gain instruction of the practical application of various settings which was promised to the m for which they got nothing for which they had to go out and contract to make other kinds of the arrangements a great expense in order to supplant what they had lost under their remit with the school on this this test that they fail the pleadings they have to get certified that you know it's clear that all of them intended to make a living in sign language interpreter and if you there's a license and certification is required then the sort of creation wasn't refused because suppose i mean i see a lot of distinctions because you know when we're talking about a language it just takes a lot of practice and practice and practice to learn a new language and that was really the proficiency that's necessary in order for them to sit down in the various settings maybe  course in the court you know if they're called into court to interpret for a deaf person the court i think with one of certain level of confidence that what they were getting was an accurate interpretation it's going on so i think there's there is a distinction there whereas you know bar exam i think it's more you know analysis sort of thing as opposed to able to communicate directly into yeah i mean that there's a level of proficiency that is involved in order to be able to accurately communicate what is the spoken in sign language in order to express that in plain english or vice versa was going to be made available to them that's not what happened there is some suggestion in the record that they were told one time to go get your own experience you know help yourself if you can go find somebody who will let you just maybe shadow them or whatever like it was a paragraph course description maybe three or four sentences that was have to do with ethics and preparing resumes and marking your skills and those kinds of things is really the focus is here and one of them is whether or not the court here in dismissing the statutory fraud counts and it's not entirely clear whether the court did so intend to go far meaning that i didn't intend to hold that the a dead educational institution could never be sued for statutory fraud and i responded said i'm trying to make sure that i understand because it did this dismissal of those statutory count recorded the smith's that you know and he didn't say why he had dismissed it and i was trying to ascertain whether or not he was holding as a matter of law they couldn't or whether the painting was just insufficient and if it was insufficient my wasn't really the attorney for part period of time early on in this case mr laurie was needed withdrawn but need nonetheless you know what i did when i did get involved was recognized at the court the case was still pending the court had not express motion to reconsider and it was at that hearing where the court said well i would order them to answer but you need to amend your had to have the clauses because you have to be specific in the contract instance these are we reiterated in the prayer for relief believing the complaint that it was completely baffling i think it november hearing with the court said you know without any direction us to the contrary basically threw up his hands and acted like we had done something contrary to his direction and i still don't know what that could possibly be because we did make the prayers for relief very specific based on the very elements of damage that we've made a different point so so we basically did that either the motion from the smith or them to answer and then he didn't like your but then that's when he granted the motion to dismiss he he he get fourteen days to amend he had them which we did and we specified we really reiterated in the prayer relief elements of damage that we believe that he had ordered the answer then they had another motion to reconsider whether there was still no answer the defendant continued to just come in and say terms of getting what you were promised and  have bought here oh let me give an example ok for example if you are told that you pay your tuition and you get one hundred thirty hours and then you will get to parade your contract is that if script show that they allege was preached and in order to decide whether the goods were delivered as promised the we're going to have to sit and look at what happened what went on in that course what were each hour that was logged in the practicum did it meet the course to script or was it something that you could quantify or qualify did the student put in as much effort as they eged right from the beginning that it was offered but it was ineffective to him because the course instructor was not interested he claims the plaintiffs claim that they didn't have to interested when she was approached the video equipment was broken or missing and some classes were canceled which means obviously that there were canceled classes that were offered but the instructor in their way of thinking was not as interested if they thought she should be in a course that they found to be or they would offer them one how many of us haven't the practicum the fifteen hour practicum the credits which they got they got a fifteen hour practicum they were given credit for that and they claim it was deficient and it resulted in and they claim all these damages that flow from it so they got what they bargained for they got the fifteen hours addressed a lot of that in our brain starting with page forty four that there certainly may be it may not apply to educational institutions of course we did not argue that in the lower court  ruling may not be around easy even if the court did decide that in these types of cases there has been no such price of action allowed but in this situation in this situation under the facts i think the judge and all the arguments were made i mean as you know the briefs there's over a thousand pages of praise it's not as if the plaintiffs should be baffled in this case as to what the argument of the defense is we outlined in detail every argument that we had with regard to the consumer fraud allegations and if they wanted to fit within what they believed a consumer fraud could be they should not be baffled by that at all they should have at least given the judge some language that the judge could have said this is not educational malpractise time and time again that damages matched educational not practice the pleading well if for that course if there was if they pled that they did not receive what they believe they were promised again i don't believe they were promised three hundred anything the promise them three hundred dollars i could tell you i don't well you at least have to plead that there is some basis in a contract in a writing in a world where they get three hundred hours the only way they get it is the syllabus which says that if in fact they would claim and i'm trying to i'm trying to think of how they could claim a contract if they were a claim that they got three hundred hours in the practicum and under the syllabus that meant they se that's educational and i know he complains that you're using a resolver and over again but it was there when when his clients signed up to go to this school wasn't there a promise being made from small that they were going to give a certain level of education i don't think that's true your honor i don't i've done think that's the contract it's like your example of the bar review course it's like your example of going to law school you go to law school with the ultimate and of passing the bar exam and getting a job as a licensed attorney all of us do that some of us never make it because we don't pass that certification test and we don't get a license to practice law is that the fault of the college is that the fault of barbary who gave us the course afterwards do and as a matter of fact the case that was cited by the latest in this case as being successful in minnesota was reversed and you may be aware of that not going to allow it because they claimed that an element of the course that they claim was promised to them in the handbook that describe what the course was about was never provided to them and when that course that part of the course was never provided it resulted in the death of the pilot and therefore the damages that flowed from that what they claim to be free of contract and hire some new people who maybe don't have that much in the way of skill and then people start being failing this  if you provide an adequate i'm not aware at this point iran of that there would be that much such a cause of action that would be negligence and that would be educational  i don't know that that was an issue i'm sure that yes you can do that absolutely that that happens that memory you can i mean in any school at a certain point you can drop a class and ask for a refund and go two they can't do that yes but i suppose if they could and they could we're going to the back of it that said three hundred hours i was promised and i only got two hundred the damages the flow from that plan hundred hours a portion of my tuition should exactly what the trial work has said time and time again and now we talked about them which is by the way you have my question for mr young let's assume for the moment that they yeah and i don't believe that your honor and we have argued that time and time again in our lead in our responses in our briefs in the hundreds of pesos your position from that source or a portion of the jewish that's correct because to go further than that and decide that there was some something that resulted from that like the failure to pass the certified a post graduate certification test keepers right hiring the tutors all those you're going to have to prove that it came from those particular hours that you didn't get that there was some relationship at the back gets into the educational where he was on ethics and preparing a resume marking your services that's the one where the instructor immediately cares a lot winstein all friday classes said come on in on mondays all answer any questions you have all i want to buy flowers in my office and those kinds of things students were required to keep some kind of a log of maybe some experience that maybe they tried to get on their own but the practical was very specific it was to be done under the supervision of the faculty and the office  career so of a service is to help them find and undertake experiences in a variety of settings under the supervision of people and they pleading his it did not happen  they didn't find these experiences for them they didn't supervise them you know and all this talk about broken machinery and things has only to do with mary separate claim the practicum you know and really what the palate is really trying to do is sa hardly paid for the course well i thought typical contract damages and we cited a number of brief are whatever the kinds of damages that are consequence of that breach and if they were to get three hundred hours they had to go out and spend  hundred thousand dollars to get three hundred dollars of of experience that they should have gotten from the eight thousand that the college contracted for it seems to me they're entitled to recover the hundred thousand dollars but that's a  i did everything they tell me to do i didn't pass the exam you're supposed to train me why should i have to think spend another thousand bucks for this is really cool if you're adding to that the college said you really better take this part of course and pay a thousand dollars for