we have two public hearings the first one is at seven fifteen an application for the new office a director for the ninety nine restaurant at seven thirty an application for a new officer and director at the red robin patriots place at seven forty five we have the update on the fire department overtime project that we've been working on for a few months a thirty selectman walsh is going to give us an update on the negotiations with the craft organization in the town committee and nine o'clock with this going to be a brief discussion continuation of the discussion on the north street parking which is a layover from the last meeting that we had in at nine thirty we are going into executive session for union negotiations and review of executive session minutes and i do not believe will be returning to open session after that so if cheney want to lead us in the you get that frank i'm going to have it and i'll get everything that the group did an amazing job last year and it was a very memorable and actually it's a good segue a little bit into if people night thank you anyone else from citizens input seeing nobody a couple quick updates on the chairman's update not so much of an update but i did want to extend a thank you to the foxboro jaycee's and to foxborough cable access every year that this is the second decade that they've been doing the the free commons i'm sorry free concerts on the common and i think they were pretty well attended  and again free means free people came in with their family so a lot of volunteers but also a lot of corporate sponsors for each event and they listed some on their website bay colony douglas king builders foxborough in the cable access for doing that again this year a shout out to the best wishes to the school committee in the school department the first day of school was today and i think it went off pretty successful they invited a board selectmen last week on monday to tour the high school in the renovations that they did there and it was it was nice to see the creativity and some of the improvements they stretch the dollars i think as far as it could go with some of the improvements that they did there and it was just it was a nice tour and thank you for the invite a quick thoughts to the night family many of you had seen in town that christopher knight was hit by a car and baker street is thirteen years old a tough time for the family and i know that there's a lot of community support which is nice to see foxboro do and if you can can you continue to reach out i'm sure they appreciate that invensys had an open house many  was some contaminants that were discharged in the neponset reservoir and they have gone forward and started their five going to start their five year extended period of more study and testing on that so the public's invited to review those reports and again they have until october fifth to report back to the d p any questions or concerns the n r c see which is in a ponce a committee that  asked to come in front of the selectmen similar to what they did last year to help get the word out and help public comment so we're going to invite them i believe next week if we can put them on the agenda for them to come in and kind of give us an update on some of the work that they're doing out there as well some of the upcoming items that we have penciled on the agenda and we are start to look at the town hall repairs and bill to spare and the consultants going to be presenting some of the i think the quick fixes that need to be done immediately on townhall to move in the direction of making a little bit more livable linda walsh in my john's i think pencil for next week to come in and update us on the veteran's pay that was a layover from the last town meeting where it didn't pass but we were going to look at redoing it so it was a little more palatable so that's coming up hopefully next week some health care changes and because of the new state regulations we're going to be getting an update on the pavement management system as a follow up to our last session with them and then in october we're going to start the fiscal year fourteen budgeting the goals have a joint meeting with the school committee  sorry odyssey in the brass daddy's going to be playing there's a lot of stuff for the kids and then the money that they receive is going to be going back into a scholarship so it's kind of give and take at the same time and it's really to honor all those that died in nine eleven which is coming up again so if you can if you can make it it's a fantastic day long winded but that's the update and the few minutes before the seven fifteen public hearing so actually the only thing the board wants to add to that anything to add on the open sessions you've been having for the people walking in there was no one today nobody today minimal i don't know where the people realize that we're still doing it the first tuesday of the month morning session from ten into noon and then evening session five to five six five to six thirty and it's office hours anyone can come to voice their opinion and ask questions i just have their thoughts known and thank you for doing and we return all the joint meetings i had with the planning board and water and so on the committee the hours that you guys spent on that thank you appreciate that  let's go through a couple action items we have meeting minutes from august seventh jenny we have a request to accept a donation of five hundred dollars to the recreation get fun from high energy for the fall and volunteer hours the memo from  we have an application from dee myers from j pullup distributors for a two day from surfer to one day beer and wine license for the jay public distributors trade show to be held at kristina's on september eighteenth in is an application as we go through all these quits we've got an application for two one day beer and wine license for a motorcycle run to benefit children's was special needs to be held on september thirtieth with rain dates on the fourteenth or the twenty eighth at one o five washington morning any more discussion follows in favor of the motion carries five zero and a request permission to hold a neighborhood block party and block off traffic from one would have to at bakers street to fifty railroad ten in the middle of the week yeah i actually talked to the gentleman i don't know why they picked that day but we made it very clear that we still need to have emergency vehicles be able to gain access into that area they said they would and so after talking to people the area we both felt that was as lincoln hill way and that's from michael for on from briarwood construction course and in the packet there's a letter requesting it and a little bit of a history of lincoln hill and a map of some division now this has been run by the  and motion carries five zero there was an interesting little history on lincoln hel forty south street foxboro massachusetts on an application for new office or director issuance of stock transfer of stock a new stock holder of an annual all alcoholic beverages restaurant license from ninety nine restaurant of boston l l c for fischer's fisher st foxboro massachusetts all interested persons are invited to attend the hearing soulmate motion made to extend to continue it till september eighteenth and second it the discussion at the request of the applicant follows in favor five zero ok kevin the next application for a new director at red robin i didn't see the packet for legal notices is that it's not a public hearing ok you can if the applicant is here you can you not required you know to go according to the exact times in your gender those you planning to so you find ok is there anyone here from red rum ok excellent well thank you good evening andrew upton representing red rob and i think we have the application packet application in our packet who do you want to explain or introduce what you're applying for sure this is we are applying for a change of officer read robin corporate headquarters is in a suburb outside denver colorado and we will replace christina carlson who is the current trend her on the nationwide organization with mr stewart brown so it will have no impact on the restaurant on the menu on the floor plan on the management or on any of the restaurants in massachusetts it's just an a b c requirement that we do it this way so from a day to day management in the people staffing and i'm not changing in this is more paperwork from outside of the state of corporate exactly right ok i won't go around the table but is there any comments or questions board had asked some specific questions to go back and look at we also invited the advisory committee through e mail if anyone wanted to come and i think they got the same you get the same information i think you e mail regular hours pose the question do we hire more staff and cut down the overtime or keep the overtime and if we're going to keep the overtime let's look at the overtime and see how it compares to the other towns is it being abused is it in sync with our population in the needs of the town so that was a probably a month and a half or so ago and you came back and i know you worked with kevin on me and randy on on getting the data so just that's just as a background so if you wanted to introduce what you came back with good evening to all of you and i again thank you for the opportunity to come back and answer those questions i think that if you look in your package you're going to see that pretty much the questions you asked we were able to get some very detail information and a lot of facts to support or are in answer the questions that you guys had posed to us i still think that kevin armor probably bounces back to you but i still think that the question that comes to mind is that we we have a variety of different directions that we can go as a community i think that the key in the number one thing that we have to look at is the measurement that we we make a determination on what exactly is appropriate staffing for the protection of this community and that goes they where for the last two years i've been designing my case to d ad gone into the boy's selectman into the town manager staffing levels being at eight  to a bearable minimum of six and that's where all of those discussions i think of been stemmed and in every case i think we've laid out the reasons in the rational process that we use two questions were i thought it was interesting comparing it to the different towns the population right staffing their overtime budget and what happens when you take the cities out of the mix right and then i also want to go back to some of the how do we look compared to other communities in terms of our staffing so water had us under took a survey you got the spreadsheet on the back question we all the norfolk county communities  so it gives us a pretty good read averaged out for communities forty five compared with twenty eight but in there is women quincy when you take them out the average is thirty three compared to twenty eight so pretty comparable  average staff per capita which is much more important khomeini's firefighter e m t is do we have per person it's five hundred ninety five for the from norfolk county and with our twenty eight we have one for every six hundred seventy resident so again nothing remarkable there were pretty much were body else's overtime actual spent column now we didn't look at budget because frankly budget doesn't mean a thing the budget amount and spend more or less so we looked at the actual expenditures average over time expense per community was five hundred one thousand with our overtime at four forty seven now over time explain you know expenses are pretty comparable would have ai they're not really affected by staffing levels and that sort of thing unless you're really drastically understaffing to have a minimum staffing level which skews a tremendously but we didn't know that now one way to standardize over time is to look at how much overtime a community spends per capita for every citizen so for the communities in the study it was twenty dollars to sixteen cents per capita of what we were at twenty six twenty nine that's a pretty significant variation but again when you take out the two city limits in quincy because they would tend to spend more on being cities the average overtime per capita is twenty three dollars to sixty cents and with did chart for you and what we found is that it's an average cost of fifty four thousand nine hundred twenty six dollars and fourteen cents per firefighter per year so for fire fighters would cost us four hundred thousand n lest anyone think that's all straight salary it isn't so here's the components fifty four thousand is the current salary that's top step education stipend for bachelor's degree thirteen seventy three so in the salary in stipend together is fifty six that's the money benefits that we have to pay out for that firefighter there's twenty ninth of nine hundred thirty nine benefits now that's health insurance retirement oh pablum all that rolled in and we've got a very good of that randy's put together that really goes through that in detail but he wants it now each firefighter e m t comes with a certain amount of sick leave per event leave personal leave it cetera and we can track all that now because we've got very very specific numbers that allows us to tell you for one day of sick leave how much statistically on average of that sick leave is going to end up being taken early and secondly how much of that will be over time so we now have this formula built but we can track that very very precisely so what we did is we ran out the cost of sick leave personal leave holiday leave training and vacation and you can see those numbers there so in other words the theory is a firefighter e m t comes with leave time some of which when he or she takes it is going to result in overtime to fill their shift  so the total cost is one hundred four thousand now the actual experience because these leave numbers can vary you know what i will tell you is that it may be one hundred four maybe a little more maybe a little less these are averages you know computed over the course of the last three fiscal years so here's what we can say with certainty fifty six and twenty nine or eighty five thousand is the hard core cost that's the actual salary plus benefits that would pay eighty five the difference between one hundred forty five robot one nine hundred thousand is the potential cost and over time if this extra person would cause us that's basically how it breaks down  budgeted staff which is what we run in a six five to empty minimum staffing remember that the first fire fighter e m t who's off the staff for any reason sick leave bereavement vacation we don't fill back so there's no overtime impact only where overtime would have otherwise occurred in other words they were on a shift when that second vacancy occurs then you could presume that one hundred percent of their salary cost would be saved  point of fact that's not going to happen because on any given shift you may have three vacancies you may have one vacancy you may have no vacancies and you can't move a firefighter e m t around number one common sense tells you you can't do that you can't say hey come into work now come in to work maybe tuesday at three you have to assign it to a shift that's a contract in any event and so we are would be guessing at how much overtime would be saved however here's what we over time rate of thirty seven fifty eight if every one of those two thousand and nine two thousand one hundred ninety hours at that firefighter worked resulted in an overtime savings that would be eighty two thousand dollars eighty two thousand three hundred would save so if you compare any two thousand three hundred the savings to one hundred four thousand nine hundred eighty seven the cost it's actually a negative number so each new firefighter e actually costs us money and that's assuming that it one hundred percent of the time saved over time which it will not so the actual variation between how much time they save us and how much money we pay them is always going to be a negative number now in computing the negative number twenty two thousand six eighty six we've used averages ok we can't tell you exactly if it would be twenty two or fifteen or thirty five but we can tell you is based on the experience of the three years of statistical data gathering that we did that the average amount of time that each individual firefighter in mt is off combined with the amount of times that  causes over time we can say that it is not going to save money and i think you can see even if we assume one hundred percent savings we still don't save it's a it's a common fallacy that if you hire new full time personnel then you'll save money and over time the common fallacy the only way that might work theoretically is if you had an eight or nine firefighter in mt staff you had a much lower incidence of overtime caused by vacancies and then if you noticed that you had a lot of overtime on one shift or one time of year or some pattern then you could take the new five hundred twenty put him or her there and maybe get a better return on value but it completely does not apply in our case so we can tell you that a new firefighter e m t is not going to save us money we can say with absolute certainty last question he asked i'm sorry for the question  any area of mutual aid as the town center resources to other communities more often than it received those resources the chief did a three year comparison and it's split between medical and fire fire and basically what you see is that for the three year total we sent on the fire side one hundred seventy four times fire assets but received four hundred eighty six fire assets pretty good deal there in the area of medical we sent two hundred eighty assets on to determine eighty different times received to sixty six so pretty breakeven so the answer the question is you know we're probably making out at a rate of almost two to one in the area of  mutual aid i don't know exactly what the reasons for that are but certainly we're not we're not losing money our tax payers are supporting other community i'll tell you we have found in other in other towns where i've done this we have found most famously years ago brought them severely reduced staffing one year and all the communities in the area basically became the backup fire department for the city of brockton we did that for about six months we started noticing we were sending a lot more than receiving and we called the chief in the city council on the merits of look we're not going to do this anymore we're going to suspend our mutual aid agreement except for severe multiple alarm fires and that caused the city council now this is a practice were a firefighter can have another firefighter take his or her shift just to swap out in the contract is plain language that says that this camp allow this cannot cause over time the reality is it probably does now how often we can say because it's certainly possible that the person who swaps at a later date and stop being out because they change their mind at a later date we know that's a rare event now we haven't tracked it we don't know if we don't we haven't tracked it but we really that would be a very very red flag for everybody and we have not seen it i mean frankly if two firefighters swapped out and then the second firefighter working late or were calling for remotely whatever that would be a laser we would be all over that some crew who will wait a minute you're not going to do that anymore so what everybody understands it's a privilege and it's a wonderful privilege it's a very helpful privilege but it's not one that can be abused and the minute it gets abused it's going to get negotiated the contract plus it says shall not cause and over time of the right so i won't tell you that it doesn't ever cause over time i will tell you it's extremely rare and we know that for a fact so those are the answers to your question and hopefully that phrases back to where you can look at the final exhibit in the report the recommendations section there's just two things i wanted to bring back to everybody's attention again if you remember we had given your report showing you our three year averages this is that at the last time and at that point i three year average of where we've been budgeted versus what we've been using was about eighty six thousand dollars that we oversee we overspend in the overtime area but again to make sure everybody is aware that we do not have a budget line for i o d for when people get hurt on jobs we do not have any overtime line for military ministre of leaving a bereavement leave says four major categories that we don't budget for and if you look at this analysis that we did get surrounding communities and you look at fox for alone we budget five three hundred fifty five thousand three hundred three dollars and our expenditures were four hundred forty seven thousand and eighty five dollars if falls right in suit what the three year analysis said and it also pretty much averages out with the communities they're very close clearly identical to foxboro so i hope that that folks can see that we have been doing a really good job being very frugal and even with a there is not an out of the park home silver bullet we can give you and say do this and we'll reduce overtime spending dramatically we can say that our overtime spending is pretty consistent with other communities we're not above the norm we can say that our staffing levels are fairly consistent with other communities on a per capita basis and we can tell you that we do have some things that make us a little unusual that of course is the stadium although how it impacts this is not clear but we do the know the community of the mansfield has a facility like that so bottom line is of the eighty five thousand that we on average under budget for over time i can tell you that we can save some of that if we do some of these things on a recommendation section you endorse those things then we can save some what do i think maybe ten to twenty thousand something like in that range i think the savings in the area of sickleave i think the savings in a couple of areas where we've spent more than we budgeted for certain what colorado's discretionary exposure time expenses like training and reality what this says is we should do that we should establish a budget that should be something we collectively discuss and debate and you know once it's set up it's set up watch doesn't go over that alosi as a surplus somewhere else and then he can put it toward training  so there's some money we can save in there but what i want to tell you is the reality is we are in fact under budgeting for overtime if you accept it is the number one thing on the recommendation that i'm asking the board if you accept the six firefighter in mt minimum shift then eighty to eighty five percent of what we're spending on o t is caused by that's six person shift and it's not going to change unless you change that  staffing level and i as you know the chief and i do not recommend that you change the staffing level now i'm not going to tell you i have his expertise he recommends the six does that mean that there are surplus or personnel at times of course that's the nature of the fire service indian tea service what towns except that private e m t services don't is more down time private he empties services tend to regionalize their service they accept less downtime their crews are more active but they have much much longer response times why because when that regional crew is on  call a second one comes in first of all they're covering a bigger area and secondly when the call comes in for a second ambulance there are a lot longer away so they accept longer response times communities that operate their own e m t services generally have made the quality of life decision that we want fast response and believe me in foxborough you get fast response whether it's the first call or the second call you get fast you can pretty well count on that anywhere in this community on a normal day or night your three to four minute response time is the norm for an e m t paramedic crew to be on s second call might be four to five minutes a little bit longer because you know just takes a little bit longer to gather the personal necessary and get out there but that is an incredible response time it is the standard adopted by the american heart association for those kinds of heart attacks where electricity a defibrillator can be efficacious now of all the calls that occur in the course of the year there are very very few where electricity is going to save someone's life but here's the question does anybody want to roll the dice and say we're going to have a lower minimum staffing because that first two ambulances going to get there the second one is not going to make that three to five minute window they're not so will the accident occur well you've all seen the headlines that were up and have roll i think it was a fire  t call not any mass call but what happens is you can roll the dice and you can save a lot of money and you can go along for weeks months years and nothing happens but the first time you have that do call and someone dies because we couldn't make that thirty five response team time you can be absolutely sure you're going to hear about it and you know they publicly said that the mayor who cut the budget in was a murderer on quote because he cut the budget and because the response time was extended on a multiple call situation that he caused the death well of course that's ridiculous and it was later retracted but if a kind of emotional stuff that occurs when you make that decision so it ends up being a communal decision do we pay a lot of money that is for people for five hundred mts to be idle while we're waiting for those calls to happen yes but that's a standard we accept because we want the service because none of us wants it to be our husband our wife our child our grandmother iran father so we pay the dollar is it a good investment you know the policy makers we're just here to give you the news that we go around the board and thank you by the way is there anyone from at com that wanted to add or had com or some to you know look at your model we do a lot of details of people on our committee who are a lot smarter than i am about this stuff you know will spend a lot of time i mean for myself i just can't get my head around the arithmetic of it if you hire more more people one person for each shift how you know how that doesn't eliminate a big chunk of the overtime because you're always going to have at least one extra person irish so by definition you have to be you know you're always going to have somebody there  think about it this way because it's pretty simple the cost of those four firefighters is four hundred thousand dollars roughly our entire overtime budget is three fifty five so in order for those fire for firefighters each put on one shift to save what to to save three hundred fifty five thousand an order to make it cost efficient they would have to eliminate the overtime budget never going to happen now you can either think of a logically valid way is just sort of you know macro thinking if you will or you can plod through the numbers we've prepared see where we can't say exactly larry but what we can say absolute certainty is that you're not going to save a lot if you save anything at all yet and that's just my point is there's that so if you look at form or don't look at it for overtime savings look at it because maybe the town needs for more to provide leverage that's another that's not what your study was incrementally at a small cost but you might then dramatically get better service i don't know and that's that's a that's right that's a balance in that and that's a different question i'm glad you said that because i wanted to make the additional point to the board this is not a staffing a staffing study is a very different effort than this roger indeed i'll work hard on this thing tyler works fantastically or in turn would be happy to look at staffing if you guys want to go there but i think realistically this amount of work will solo boras took so much time i think i'd tell you really want to staffing this get a chunk of money let's hire a consultant to the staffing study let's not try to task because  we just don't have time to take in the next couple of weeks we'll take an evening and just really get into the numbers because you have a lot of data which is great you know and with a whole bunch of guys looking at it i think we'll understand that a lot better than if you find a mistake and you might it's probably r emergency rooms have busy nights and not so busy nights and you can typically guess what they're going to be so one question i would have is i'm assuming that we will mirror how an emergency room would operate so therefore what i'm getting at is in healthcare really a really difficult thing to do is f administratively is to establish minimum staffing requirements because what that does is it takes away all flexibility of management to deal with situations such as gee i've got two people called in we have this minimum six staffing requirement it's like it's dead today i don't need it i know i don't need it but i have to do it that takes away all the basic financial control of the situation calls me call for management judgment but i think you know it still provides the system with the flexibility that it needs to manage as best as i can because you know i think certainly it is accepted and expected what our response time is and you know we're very fortunate in foxboro and want to maintain that but i think realistically you know we can me you know with that with proper management you should be able to maintain that given that knowledge that there are these typical fluctuations like everyone is going to have the chest pain monday and everyone's not on wednesday you know things like that so i would personally tend to shy away from establishing a policy for a minimum staffing report because of that reason very good question well that was really absolutely if we were just doing a m s hall i would agree with him and i started looking at some of the statistical facts that we had in run cards because you've got to remember we're two dimensional on one side of the coin we're in a mass the other side of the coin we're fire protection of fire fighters and so i started trying to see if there was a trend in again this is just rough it's not even finite i still need to tweak it some more because i think that the the graphs could have come out a little bit differently but there is no physical trend that shows fire in e m s being at the same time they're always or off and the opposite of each other and so that's why i when i look at it as a manager as a chief it's too much moving targets for it to be one dimensional where i can find my lower my high because when e m s might be low fire might be high or vice versa and that's what i was trying to see if there was a trend when putting the numbers down and looking at the different components of what we do and perform i couldn't really find that some people go even deeper than now in going by hours on the day and it's as kevin said it's a crapshoot and it's not one that i'm willing to take and i'm hoping that  realize we have to be good managers i clearly respect that it is scientific crapshoot right and that's why i did this i'm still looking at different models but i think right now even with the one that i did that it's very generic it's very brief it's not showing any trend and it's in that's the thing that i guess we all have to look at we're two dimensional fire and e m s and so we have two different moving targets and that's  happen to believe that you can track calls and you can establish staffing patterns on the basis of when your calls occur and have done that in two communities  takes a tremendous amount of work typically it's something that has to be computerized because you have to take all your calls and you have to sort them by types of calls and what you're looking for is if you have a certain number of calls that need a certain response time and then a number of other calls that need a wholly different response time so what you're trying to do is segregate your calls by the kind of response time they need and then ask the question what do we see for pattern and i've done that and frankly have used that to then short shift you know say here's our minimum staff goal but here is the here are times when we are going to deliberately go below that goal because we see the call pattern which is which deviates from the goal and then i've actually done short shifted given achieved direction and such short shift during these times and we've done it now we'll it is tremendously controversial because again you can hit it right ninety nine point nine percent of the time and then that one time that the event happens when you're short when you're short shifted and you can't get that response time for about a vent all hell will break loose do you have the ability to call people in at that time do you have the ability to call people in added edit you had to let out when not to achieve that response time there's nobody has come up with a good system yet i didn't again the sum of all of them that your plan for is not the fire it's not the broken leg it's not it's not even the arterial bleed or not these days because most people have got enough education in order to get them off it's the heart attack when you gotta put electricity on out of vent and if you don't get it within a certain time you have brain death so that's the event that's the penalty response time of vent that we plan for any a mass the american heart standard which is at three to four minute response time what nobody's come up with a good answer to yet is we realize that that three to four minute response time is only going to be needed a very few number of times during the year but we don't know when and so we frankly hugely overspend to ascribe to that standard because no one wants to take the responsibility of saying i'll take the responsibility to direct the shift to go down to five or to four for the month of august and endure in a month of august you get all the first one we can handle second  well and i can actually that's the dilemma well you're quite right you can do a study and you can make educated guesses on where you can do lesser staffing but i don't want i don't i want to be absolutely honest with you and i want to tell y i've done it absolutely done it and it's worked but then i've had events happen where that second call occurred the response time can be met and boy  have people and firefighters mts who are going to say that was a mistake here is a dead person here is not a statistic here is a resident of the community or a visitor to it who is now dead because we made a money thousand and seven was up to pages place one fascinating one fascinating aspect there's at least we already make a decision because if we get recalls requiring that response time we can't do it so we've already made a decision which is we're going to staff a six and a decision we've made is we can hit response time for toobin our third call but we've greatly reduced the likelihood that that third event will happen does it happen i don't know off the top of my head but i will bet you statistically it's happened because if it well and there's only i think kevin gave you all the aspects of e m s i can give you the same exact aspects in fire area guys only takes three minutes for a normal personnel and then decorated for you speak of a heart attack at the ninety i restaurant you had the young ladies in here for i guess you'd call it a ceremony and you had a penny at the get we're very lucky to have the the people we have no doubt about it and i myself you know lead kong to their work let's discuss it and come back to us i think you know  definitely needed the minimum staffing that we have now i've always been a fan to increase it by one but obviously it's been a tough fiscal times and last three years but the getting better i think and i just think not only you look at the numbers you look at the personality you have and and their dedicated group so i'm really happy with the way things are the way they are right now and i think this is working out for the community is best because it's not just high tech it can be a do you call in a call five right now we only have three and again the staff the staffing that we have and i call firefighting those numbers have reduced him those numbers reduce the moneys that we put aside for those have also reduced it's a very costly experience to not jazz trained them insure them but it's also to get the gear for them and to give them the appropriate training and it's hard for me as a chief to where we don't have enough money to invest in the training of the full timers to going in and start using all the money to train call firefighters and so we've looked at both aspects in until things get somewhat corrected and the old bigger the whole picture it's difficult to go any more than what we already have and so and it's also retention you know you go to plainville and plainville is most of their fire department is based off of call firefighters and do but will tell you he has a very very difficult time holding them because as fast as he spends all of their their monies training them then leaving and going to a full time fire department somewhere so  personnel in order to save all the time that would be a very very difficult negotiate asian as i'm sure you can appreciate is impossible no but it's tough in towns that have strong study in upstate new york comparing mortality rates of the people who live there to mortality rates down by new york city with his full time career fire departments in upstate new york it tends to be called apartments with no full time career personnel in the mortality rates in upstate new york we're better now really was that because they less red meat i don't know in upstate new york i don't know because there's a lot of factors that go into an analysis was it just because they know logic says it isn't because you have slow response times that the five common sense so there are all the things happening what it what it directs people to do is then start looking a lot deeper into the term and could call firefighters work the short answer is i've been in communities where we've had very robust call departments in career five fighters and the ashburn him you know we have forty fifty sixty call five fighters and i think only seven are a career full time firefighters overtime is very minimal because those call firefighters pick up the slack there's a culture there that says ok this is good this works or ok everybody cooperation the career guys cooperate career men and women cooperate well the call men and women is great tolerance and cross fertilization and education and whatnot and experience so it works but you come out to eastern massachusetts with towns like we are with large predominantly career firefighter e m t departments and you say hey folks good news we're going to create a fifty person call department so that we can curtail over time  imagine a response you're going to get and it just doesn't work because you can't force people to be cooperative in the way people look at as they say hey you take the money out of my pocket i make right now we're going down a little bit too far well i just want to illustrate everything in the packet today and it was real information i think that you guys have done your job answering to kind of his question because that's how this all stemmed my correct yes so i think what it comes down to is you just probably on the budget item itself needs someone to rection maybe that falls from a whatever but i'm certainly not going to recommend that we should cut anything or change personnel or anything else because you know we have a relocated fire department that is down that end of the town which i feel safe because i'm very very close but that like thirty seconds from this we're used to be too  that to do it so i want to make sure the back of it and i want to make sure that we're covered all the time i don't care if it's you know the quiet time is mostly wednesday night at you know four o'clock in the morning until nine o'clock and i want to i don't you know and i'm sorry that the guys have nothing to do but you know what when that goes a lot and that phone rang they are right on it so this is not like princely by their eyes or anything they are ready to go and i'm proud of them and i'm proud to live as mark said i mean we could go on and on and say how many lives they've touched and and that they know the people when they walk in there we don't have some outsider coming into your home you know these guys who've seen him on a daily basis you know so i'm not ready to change anything the only thing i think they need to change is the way that we present the budget itself  two thousand and nine we sent one hundred fifty one medical trips to surrounding towns two thousand and ten we had one hundred twenty six sent out and then two thousand and eleven we only had three yeah i don't know if it was  i really don't know the answer again it's in the report it comes out of the i m c reporting that captain buckley pulled out for me it could have been it could have easily gone in the wrong box i know in two thousand and eleven we finally had a backup and once that was that wasn't breaking down i don't think that that has any factor that has a little bit of a factor but the only thing i can think of is that a the boxes got checked off but i'd have to check with captain but we've asked you questions and you've answered them all what i take out of this i look at foxborough which has elation of seventeen thousand compared to when we have seven per share for the minimum of six sharon we have the population of seventeen thousand has one less firefighter but one hundred thousand dollars more in overtime so you start to see that kind of put it in perspective mansfield who has a bigger population of twenty three thousand has eight firefighters and seven so the one up on both the right regular staff in the minimum west field has almost identical they have seven and six norton twenty thousand have seen six of the data shows that were not were average were not above or below changing from seven i mean from seven to eight to get rid of the overtime i don't see it happening from the data that we've seen it go from a minimum of six to five even if it's you know you try to guess the the season of the for the weekend versus mid day i'm not going to be ten i know your job and if you're comfortable with that it seems like all the other towns comparable loss to us are that what i am curious as to the recommendations that we had the thirteen recommendations i think we can cut off wanted to have much at the back of changing those numbers  in mickey mouse with you know the overall but as far as the management of educating the public over time training unplanned overtime the other numbers as i think we certainly have some room to explore that in make it a little bit better whether it's ten or twenty thousand you know savings i think we owe it to at least go through the exercise and see if we can make it better this recommendation was given to us several months ago and i think you're right i think we have answered the big questions of we on the right track but we want to tweak it more by working with you know some of the labor in h r in those in that in those areas that we haven't touched on well if you look at some of the some of this is recommendations for it could be policy or recommendations to basically say chief can you look at making it better by implementing some of these things you've only been here a couple years a lot of the stuff you've inherited from past chiefs you know some of the stuff i think has merit to looking to get into the process and i'll jump in on that i think that the the policy aspect we've already been making moves on so that's that's not a question the negotiation component is is the wild card i think they if you focus all your energy on negotiations on the fire you better be looking across the board because one thing we have done is been pretty consistent with all of the union negotiations here so it's going to have impact not just on the fire but maybe on other union contracts and that's something that you leave the town manager or in legal counsel  to make that determination at the you know request of you folks as the board of selectmen i can minister nearly everything that kevin has asked us to do in regards to come up with the appropriate budgets the only thing i want to say is that it's all well and good but you have to put money in those budgets and we found out this whole all of this analysis is showed four major areas that we're not budgeting for that i've brought up to kevin brought up to randy we all are agreement we think the numbers speak for themselves it's just now we have to sit down with dad pound calm with what the budgeting process and budget the right way because right now as you can see all the analysis shows there were eighty six thousand dollars off from what we've been doing for the last three years and so if i would be happy to have no longer take money from peter to pay paul because that means we're doing what we're supposed to be doing in operating in managing the fire department and right now we've been taking a lot of monies out of different aspects so it does leave something short so that we can make sure that we're always in black and so absolutely budgeting is not a problem policymaking is not a p negotiations i leave that to kevin and leo to discuss that with you folks in some of the reasons i'm asking this because we've got the same exercise to do with the police overtime exactly so things like the use of comp time should be terminated immediately i don't know if that that's an issue or if it's is it just i'm not pull him up and things like that i just don't have the knowledge but i think it's worth asking the question not at this meeting but for kevin to work with them and go through all these things  of things i think we should try to you know take it a step at a time and implement a couple of the things and i think that the chiefs want to do it i think that's what the icon is it's kind of trying to say to his now let's get it right from the get go in part of the problem is when you hear overtime budget of almost a half a million dollars people panic and say you're the mismanaging you know we're doing something wrong where something like snow and ice removal when there's an overtime where there's a when the budget is in arrears there's a reason for that and it's kind of working with the remaining visible well it's more visible but you can get reimbursement different meckling state right then you can't do this yet but if this was if it's the same thing over and over categorize it differently but put it in the budget and recognize it so it's not a big you know top right term and i think that i don't hear any any problems or any complaints about the fire department responding in the service and all that is positive but time when budget comes up it's the overtime number and if we can address that now we have a better understanding through the work of of kevin and randy and the intern and hopefully we can do the same thing with the police department so in the list of recommendations then all of these items are things that would be implemented is that what you're saying accounts that are controllable by training and in department meetings and then we'll track out calls against that and you'll see as we go through the year like the i think within a couple weeks we should be able to give you the january july august report and we're going to start following what you'll be able to see for the first time is as we get into the year where are we incurring overtime for what reasons and  heading into trouble and that's not something we've been able to do for you before but now we'll be able to do it the only thing is that our the budget liner and white thirteen wasn't set up that way i think the f y fourteen budget will be so absolutely set up that way so well end up working i think gathered like we've done in the past when we've made by to changes using the existing system and just trying to institute it into the format that we've done randy and i've done it multiple times since i've been here it's been successful it's just that we make the system work it between the two of them it's a little bit artificial backing into it because we've got a budget that we know on average is not adequate it's eighty odd dollars in short so when we start dropping money into all those different buckets all the different lines we know we're going to drop not enough and some buckets salt that's why it's artificial as opposed to when raj comes over the budget this fall he's going to say i want that much for training and i want this much and we're going t and those will be the subject of the discussion but when therefore when they're established then off flexible that's the number over here you're going to have budgets for shift replacement due to sick leave and things like that and those are budgets we're going to put in a target but if we get more circle leave than we predict there's going to be more but what will be able to tell you is here's a more sickleave on average we've incurred the last three years here's how much we therefore budgeted and we have more or less we'll be able to tell you why it's happening and that's going to be pretty helpful to you i think it's one of us i'm sure just the difference between the overtime training budget and overtime public people at home back at the beginning of august it was a series a meeting with water and sewer in the craft group to talk about potentially moving forward in in summary they're looking to expand in we're looking to address a sewer issue so they had published a list a year or two ago on things that would benefit them and they were looking for some town support this list went to the water and sewer in the water and sewer group said it's really out of their jurisdiction some of the stuff is on the selectmen and table it came to us and we said we'd look at it but some of the stuff's out of our jurisdiction it's in the planning board because it dealt with zoning in articles that so i kinda don't have authority so i went to the playing board they said well it's really into the selectmen so this kind of did a circle for a year or so so we thought it would be wise to put a group together that had representation from the planning board the water and sewer from the selectmen in one citizens at large david brown who has experience in zoning in the liquor licenses so they met for a number of meetings since the beginning of august i think was the first meeting august seventh and they were all open meetings they had public viewing and they went back and forth for a month and at the last meeting they said they've really taken it as far as they could go and then the way that was set up was they were going to come back to each individual board so david kevin why i felt was going to go back to planning bill early was going to go back to water and sewer and linda we're going to come back to the selectmen and kind of report back that it was a starting point for healing between the town and the craft organization and it was good to just have these things out in the open of how discussions get started what their wish list let's say is and what they expect from us and what you know we would get in turn and so i know that it is a copy looking for the looking for some more liquor licenses they're looking for zoning changes for our residential area but it wasn't real specific so we asked them to get a little bit more specific on what they're really thinking of it came out that units they were talking about they also spoke about when turbans things like that so it was very positive there obviously they're looking for liquor licenses and i think that that's where that's kind of our section whereas the residential units and things are sort of planning and then you get into the billboard signage and the money from that as well as ok we've got as far as we could as just discussing things but what we have to do is come back to our boards to see you know what the feeling is toward some of the articles or potential articles that would be coming our way  i also as i had said before as this was a discussion group and i was very open however to just to educate the public that when it comes down to negotiations those do need to be done by a certain group with them to you know so you don't see mike as m c i cards things like that so i think as much that could be done in the public has been done and i think to me about the negotiations going forward is that there the negotiations in the past had not been fully addressed in my estimation paper place through legislation has given twelve licenses and when i was at the state house i was involved in the plymouth narry for that and one thing that was stressed when we met with senator marcy was that thought these these additional little licenses the town really should make sure they get all the mitigation that they deserve because a liquor license is a very very lucrative for the holder of that license and from what i can see in things i've read i don't think we have gotten the full mitigation from the original twelve liquor licenses so as far as i'm concerned i'm not interested in looking to the future and making negotiations for the future until the past negotiations have been dealt with so that's that's where i stand lorraine and you know i think it was good the meetings were good in that they did get us a little bit more detail of you know what the kraft group is trying to accomplish here and i think you know all of us probably have our own opinions on each of those individual items you know whether it's a planning issue or regarding the train station in foxborough but you know at those meetings i did also voice the opinion that  town when they voted to support legislation for the twelve liquor licenses in two thousand and seven they were presented with a value of mitigation that certainly has not been realized and it goes back to the seven and a half million dollars plus or minus three million or plus three million if you want to consider that that had been promised for waste water treatment expansion and infrastructure at the time so you know i feel that that's still outstanding there and that's tied to the first twelve licenses certainly i'm willing to discuss additional licenses but i think it's important that that be addressed first i think the sec the next set of licenses that are being requested should be a totally different set of mitigation what's being proposed through this m o u i feel is a carry over from the two thousand and seven demo you so i feel like i need to draw a line there and suggest that that should be settled to address the first set of licenses and any negotiation that the board of selectmen or representative would enter into would be to be focusing on those that next set after we've addressed that first set and i think the other thing again outstanding the billboard issue is just huge in this whole thing and recognizing that that is a water and sewer issue you know we worked for two years with water and sewer supporting them as they were trying to address that initial mitigation also and i think that that needs to be addressed as again as part of before we would even consider going forward with new liquor licenses the m r u clearly states the rights and ownership of those signs would come over to the town at the end of two thousand or in may of two thousand and twelve that has not happened so i think that has to be addressed and  you know i think once that those aspects are addressed then i then we could consider going forward and i'm sorry one of the things just the way it's presented here in the term sheet and in the memorandum of understanding about the billboards again we have been advised by prior counsel that this was not an acceptable approach so proposing it this way just i just want to make it clear that that we had already been advised that this was not something that would be acceptable in terms of thirty b n what the  whether you have a contract or you didn't have a contract a perception of the town was to a higher expectation or would receive those twelve local licenses i couldn't concur anymore but not we had no control that was a separate situation that warriors who is a as their own would like to board had the right to do it didn't work out and i think to move forward we need to not forget the past but move forward more cautiously and to make sure that we can represent the town better than the people did prior including myself because i was on those committees and i was a very new slug me to time i learnt a lot of things here in the last five years or so and i think we could town meeting and a pause of fashion it's a very positive thing for the community for everything that we're going to give and receive it will just be a wasted exercise and a waste of everybody's time so we need to make sure that when we do this it's it's very much you want this you want that that's fine this is what the t return ok and then we go into executive session which is all right at that point in time to discuss it but you need to put it out there exactly what the terms of the conditions you want and they want outspoken against it that will feel in the exercise to be just an exercise and i don't feel like going to another exercise we're going to do this let's keep it all you know open and get it done and the people speak about what they want  town that's what i'd like to see h and the the two items that i think first and foremost the sewer and liquor licenses and the other stuff the zoning in the other stuff that's on the list  of secondary to those two topics in the first meeting i had with lender in dan murphy i was pretty upfront saying a the in mark says it's perception and i think it is more of the social contract than it is from the written contract but there was a perception that if the liquor licenses were granted through the act of legislation because we we were asking for more than our population was allowed by  state rules we would address a sewer issue it's easy to play on armchair quarterback and see who didn't do what or which border you know which voters stood up or what have you but we're in a precarious situation now the town needs to or the town and it's been vetted through the master plan in the planning board in the water and sewer we need to get sewer just as we need good drinking water if downtown wants to survive or if a business wants to come in where there's there's a moratorium and we can you know we've talked it to death at the end of the day we need sewer would be nice for the craft organization to say well we need liquor licenses and we'll go back  pay what with the perception was in a woman yvonne it would be certainly easier i don't know if that's going to happen i don't want to cut my nose to spite my face and saying we'll pay the check and we're not going to move forward because they may not move forward they certainly need liquor licenses i think for them to grow and expand they make a profit and as a result the town is better off in some aspects between the meals tax and the property tax and what have you so you can play the numbers it probably is a benefit for us to both move forward right now there's the water and sewer is working very hard on a separate tract that i think kevin and randy and in the attorneys are working on to get to special town meeting in vote for sewer with a caviar it's not going to cost somebody that doesn't want sewer any money it's not going to cost businesses that don't need to tie in any money because they don't have to tie in in the getting creative in going to businesses that have sewer to sell and spreadsheets and in an effort but in special town meeting hopefully we can get there without this having to work my hope is at the eleventh hour they both kind of diverged in we have something that we can put together from these these negotiations to make it easier for the town to get sore i don't know where it's all going to go but there's a lot of work to do in a short period of time and water and sewer is working very hard on it i agree with linda that more discussion has to happen eventually it's got to get into negotiation and  under executive session there's a lot of stuff that goes back and forth i agree with mark because at the end of the day in you know it very well the selectmen could say yes to all of this in order for the sewer and in order for the liquor licenses to work the town has to vote on it because we've got to get special legislation from the state because we're not owed any liquor licenses because of our population we have to ask the stay for it in the town has to vote on it so we could have the best plan and all it takes a one time meeting for them to say what part of we weren't paid the money from the last like a licenses don't you understand and it's all for nothing so do i want to go into negotiations i think i do do i want what i think was owed from the last go around i think i do but to get to that point i think we need to negotiate and hopefully they're not going to get all they want with a liquor license is probably we're not in all the zoning requirements in and special consideration they're asking for because you know the planning board the water and sewer was like when we all have to take a bite out of our you know respective per views but some you know maybe it's a little bit in the middle maybe it's a little bit one of the others on top a little bit but we i think we have to go in that direction if not patriots place stays as it is because they can expand we stay where we are without sewer and we both look at each other a year from now and saying well we should've could've done something but we didn't hopefully we can be successful and hopefully all the boards i think you know going to those meetings and listening to representatives from the planning board and water and sewer saying you know j barrows worked his tail off to get the into municipal agreement so we can do the sewer and we're all stuck so let more time go by and saying you know nobody wants to step forward to unstuck it it's not going to do anybody any good so you know the concerns that jenny and lorraine have i think hopefully they can come out of negotiations and people step up and do what i think the population thinks that they owed or it's not going to get passed on meeting hopefully we can make some concessions on the liquor licenses you know what i had asked is maybe the next meeting the patriots come and give us a presentation of what the heck they want to do up there because when you say a liquor licenses people panic but when you say a nice italian restaurant and expansion to the hotel that needs a liquor license or a chinese or japanese restaurant it's a little more palatable so if they can educate us i mean they did a nice job it at the committee meeting the still going to be questions but i'll think everyone would have a better sense the board can have a better sense before we say we want to negotiate or not and then after that meeting we can release dick element to town council and whatever group we put together to go forward but to say yes we want to negotiate without knowing what it is is going to do harm to the people that really think the money is owed and you know if we wait another two weeks and get a presentation and then be a little more informed of what we want to do i think that goes a long way sure just  my findings anyway as i again i'm going to stay positive because i think it's important to stay positive and folks out there need to realize that  we do go to town meeting and it comes down to the vote of the people just as we did back in two thousand and seven when we as a town decided we do not want a treatment plant we don't want to accept that at all we had several years till this year and we kept saying they wouldn't close it to that deadline you know we need to be talking about this whether what we're going to do here and then the deadline came may fourteenth two thousand and twelve and we decided we didn't take them up on on on the water treatment plant so let's get that right on the table just as much as i keep hearing and i am not a fan in the grass it's not what i'm here for but i'm here for is what i've been challenged to do to get everybody at the table going forward and to mend some fences and that's what i'm trying to do oh so again if we continue to go backwards votes at home then you know what i'm doing a disservice because there's no need for me to have any more discussions if we're going to if we're going to stay in you know on the seven point five million dollars you know it was brought up about the three million dollars that the a million dollars  again was money that when i looked at that she at town meeting i said they're going to count this three million dollars in there when it's own it's it's just an idea because if they go out and they build this plant to cost them three hundred three million dollars less than we would as a town building it so that's really money that like i never looked at that anyway so you know now you're down a little bit more than that now you down to say you know four million dollars you know and whatever it is it's not coming to us so if you want to hold that person or you know responsible for that much money and the majority of what is going to to even even bring it so all i'm saying as we had the opportunity to have a waste treatment plant up there we decided not to so call it what it is maybe we don't want town maybe maybe people you know of just had it and say i don't care what it looks like a town i don't care beginning was as i don't care if i ever see a laundromat in foxborough our car wash whatever if that's how they feel but i don't think that was presented when people gave their thoughts about the grand scheme scheme of things it is it is very important to get to our you know if we can get in anywhere the way that's what we need to do but as far as the organization and the discussions of going forward and making a page expanding page a place to bring in more money to the town maybe we should just talk about that but if we're going to talk about the past and what we didn't do for seventy as you know it's kind of a waste for me it was my understanding when bill early was sitting before us that they had that's right that's what i just said to kevin i said if we can do this some other way then let's do that fine you know but but the memorandum states that you know whereas we're constrained one of those one of the potential sources of revenue to pay for the sewer project could be whatever were able to negotiate with crafts it's not it's not the only one we're looking at what i've been  asked to do is to look at the thing i came up with ten potential ways to finance the so a project boat but certainly one of those possibilities is two years whatever money might be forthcoming from a negotiation with the craft organization so what what bill really is as far is a series of different iterations anticipating  potentially the craft organization money but also anticipating that that doesn't happen so we're looking at a lot of variables but not excluding monies from the craft organization but if i would mr chairman on that on that topic it's to me it's just happenstance that the negotiations with the craft organization occur at the same time that's time finds itself in the need for  the cost of the sore project may or may not have any relevance to the value of the changes that the craft organization is seeking and i wouldn't necessarily tie them it would be do with the craft organization sale of existing flows pre sale of potential flow betterments special assessments grates on doing all kinds of things clutha craft organization which i will say hostage is a little rough but watch him he mean not being just a little rough but this is been ongoing back on that now we're going back to me until now the brakes donna go back on that because we can't go back to mansfield in which we have this going we need to just move forward going to mansfield with our own revenue streams not with any other entities being involved with it to go forward and goes on treatment plan which he did so you can't hold up waiting for somebody to roll the die i mean to to to give you the answer or the dangles to kara's been dangling back and forth  sewer keep everybody out of it but the town in mansfield morton and that whole agreement will figure ourselves you can't rely on something that isn't there or could be promised or whatever the revenue streams come later then we increase our situation right now we're on our own let's just get it done on our own the other situation where they want to have this and that that's a whole nother negotiations that's a whole nother thing it's g going to means he'll right now and that's where we're going to stay focused as a board so i think to that end water and sewer commission committee separate board elected board they're working independently and they're going to go for that warrant article and if we can support them as is the planning board and in your efforts that's the paramount path if this happens at the same time ahead of it concurrently fantastic but if not that's the direction of the tao so i think we're all saying the same thing now the question is i would like to have the kraft organization commune here and present to us what their plans are for rule one liquor licenses zoning housing what billboards so we can hear it and then we the say geez that's great we'll buy into it tomorrow or we have apprehension or you know go to other boards and come back to us in a year after you've heard them i don't know but i'll put we'll put time on the next understanding you to say is i'm committed a couple of weeks and i don't know that my presentation tell you what they've got in mind meantime we don't negotiate and see what you see what you decide you want to do as a board after they give you a little more detail what you want to be whatever the board reaction is we'll await word sounds good everything else on this topic ok thank you we're still because i live in that area so i've recused myself from all the past hearing so mark took over and i guess mark and explain what what the request is thank you basically we had so what i'm not talking about is the commercial parking lots that you do currently regulate no i'm talking about parking or vehicles not for fee in the north st area that's sort of the heart for a fee or fee for a fee for a fee you've logged out to by law says you no one can do that so you don't need to further regulate that the by law prohibits it and the police department has all the authority in the world to stop it ok so going out doesn't have to take any action on it making a policy no the law by law prohibits parking for a fee in the north street area anywhere in town except in the commercial watch that you're licensed yes ok now what a ball to citizens i want to poc yeah and that that's a family nuisance by itself it's enforceable without further regulation and forcible by the police department as long as a reasonably perceive a threat to public safety traffic safety safety they can stop it under the authority of the bylaws and your board needs not do anything for them you can if you want and you do have the authority to create that's not up to me and suggest what your religion sign but you can adopt regulations and further and so that section of the bar of the of the new by law but you don't have to so the town can afford to buy a large and it through it police powers and you know that the chief and his officers have the existing authority and ability to do that as an aside to the extent that parking becomes a violation of zoning not addressed by the by laws but just by existing zoning bylaws that tourism forcible zoning force one officer but if you're directing your attention just the by a law that was recently approved by the attorney general it's in forcible as it exists without the need for further regulation and some forcible as a police power as opposed to his own power and questions from the board did you so my question has to do with what your opinion is with respect to that single paragraph that is in the a g s opinion that states that she understands that the town will be passing a policy i know that mr paco suggested that she heard that from someone and i would suggest you that that means that there was someone who was a town official who made that suggestion to her because i can't see the age incorporating into her decision hearsay grapevine or some statement from a resident and if the town in fact did represent to her that there would be a policy enacted then it seems to me it's incumbent on the town to annex some type of policy at least to clarify that  the first paragraph of the by law will not be used to enforce a prohibition on parking by residents to the extent that it is not parking isn't for p e on the second the second paragraph i realize stands on its own i actually did talk to margaret hurley about that issue and it was she was repeating the anecdotal information that she had it story doesn't know what regulations you could have it says you can't do it for a favor but this was not a directive it was not a directive to the board to adopt regulations with regard to subsection were you able to find out who it was well i think that that that while he may be saying that she's not saying that you must do it that it's still something that could be done and i'm not saying that what you're my suggestion as you can see from the letter wasn't that you say that you're not going to enforce paragraph a that wasn't my intention but i think that it's it's possible and that it would be a good thing for the selectmen to issue a policy that echoes what what was in that paragraph because what we were talking about here was the manner of enforcement of paragraph a and when we all went to town meeting we saw the the police chief stand up and suggest that he felt that parking more than the number of cars that you have registered to you at your address should be deemed a violation of the of the bylaw and i don't think that that's what people voted out of town meeting and i think that it could be the role of the selectmen to clarify that i  so you need to stop talking cause if you collecting money no matter where you are in town if you are packing friends and family although i think we'll understand i think the inspector knows i think that the police chief can't do it for a fee don't do it for a fee they have to prove that you collected a fee if you get caught collecting money that's collecting a fee am i wrong all right so just don't don't we caught taking money