is important to specially today because the utility sector is facing unprecedented amounts of change the way we interact with energy it's a two way power flow you know as recently as ten years right the utility you use your back in cleaner and electricity went from the grid to your vacuum but today that model has been disrupted in that and be more dynamic you know disrupted almost sounds negative but it's just becoming more dynamic evolving with society's desires and technology developments and so why is that important because the way we've historically done cost is great design and cost the service for the last hundred years is is changing and so  the first step into that new rate design process is assessing where we are with our costs how they are incurred and basically setting metrics that we can then use as a baseline to look at how we want to approach our rate design and what is right design mean it's really assessing how we value distributed generation solar and storage d s m demand side management program g and so really understanding what our financial targets are for these various categories sets the stage for determining how we then pull the various levers to to  design rates that accomplish you know our mission of you know and belmont's goals being climate action plan goals reliability goals and financial goals so this is that first step ok thank you very much asian as well as a series of training courses for board members and staff of utilities to help them understand the financials the key financial targets that affect begins with identification that utilities are revenue requirements and when i say revenue requirements what i mean is how much money does utility need to recover in the rates that we're charging right that revenue requirement is determined we then identify who is causing those costs now the words what class is creating the peaks of the system how are they impact in the distribution system and we identify basically how much it costs to provide service to each class of customers and that's then compared to the revenues you'll see the results of us to identify how much it costs to provide service and while much the rates theoretically should change now i do want to emphasize one thing it's a very important thing cos the service is something that's important and when it comes to rate design it is one consideration and usually a big consideration into designing rates but there's a lot of other factors that come aren't come into play besides cost of service there's factors like social concerns environmental concerns community objectives those become just as critical as the cost of service status all right so i want to emphasize that now one of the things with the cost of service results and probably the primary thing why people try to target or move in that direction is fairness to customers because from a fairness standpoint customers should be charged for the cost of providing that service because if we don't charge them properly somebody else has to pay for it because utility needs its revenue requirements because we have to pay the bills we have to maintain a reliable electric system because even though price is a important consideration it's not the most important the most important is reliability and having a financially stable utility allows utility continually reinvest in the system to make sure we have a reliable system so i just kind of put everything defending them so to speak and my understanding generally is that there is a way to go about doing them and it's been fairly uniform over the years and developed and  unusual or a little bit different and how you approach this if you could just point that out and appreciate it absolutely and i will say this how we approach it as we do work for investor and also and more we approach an investor on the course that where they're making money money making component here we're not for profit so we just want enough might appear bills in a sense and set money aside for replacement but the other thing is how i presented  servicing and put a number to it and those are primarily the only difference the allocation factors and everything else that surrounds it a pretty much the same that's a great question thank you so all i want to the other thing as you know as i go through this summer view financial protection the cost of service and the basically the rate playing going forward know my objective tonight i have three main objectives and one is you're going to see a rate truck how we want to adjust the revenues moving forward and i want your input on whether or not you agree with what we're doing or you want to see something  some classes need to go up others down the second thing i'm asking for is guidance on the leeway that you will provide to me to move some of the classes closer to casa service y ultimately what we're trying to do is keep the utility financially stable and minimize as much as possible the rate impacts and customers you know we don't want to say that one utilities have a one percent rate increase and having one customer or twenty percent you know who want to minimize that so that's the second piece with leeway you'll provide two to me the third one is really kind of related to the rates but i hold it out separate because it's such a to class goes up one percent so we put all that one percent in the customer church or do you want me to collect a dollar fifty increase in the customer turds and just see energy lower but that kind of guidance is it's a fixed fee rather than sort of based on use they should be both to get more into the understand and i'll get into the theory of the customer church because it's really important that you understand understand what goes into making that charge because it is somewhat controversial and even though i'm paid to do these studies i want to make sure you understand both sides of it all right because our costs are all broken out we can if you said if we don't want that component in there i c i'm glad you brought that up because it's a go through the presentation if there's anything you have questions as they go through please stop me and ask me those questions right away but since i have to literally be even four minutes now can i leave two questions on the rest thank you the first question is as a result of all this are you apart from distribution of issues of charge among class of customers morning of the less are you contemplating a significant general change in rates up or down and when you talk about financial stability i didn't know if you were contemplating an effective across the board rate increase and then secondly  looking at some of the slides here it looked like you were proposing significant increases for municipal accounts and i just want to flag that as an issue yeah i'll definitely address that i don't think i want to just point out  a small revenue item but it is good to know what it is you know the electric utility is sort of one of the you provide to the city one of them is the lower rates that is being charged to help the you know the governing bodies basi understand that that this so that we're proposing that's totally your call and that's what i'm here for is to get that that guidance from you how much to change  five years the only thing i'm certain of his i'm going to be wrong all right because it's based upon a lot of assumptions now with that said usually for two to three years we're pretty markers that based on a trend it is it's consistent with the trends as best way to put it and i say consistent because electric sales have been declining for certainly last five years and in it's driven by residential you know because of the energy efficiency programs electric utility move very successful in promoting energy efficiency and then you get the light bulbs coming in place and some of the rooftop solar and so all of  contributing to declines in average residents of consumption which is what we want so you know we want that declined because in a special year situation you know when you look at power supply which makes up  significant amount of your cost really what what you are is an aggregator a power supply what you really control what you what you manage really is the distribution system power supplies pass through so if electricity is reduced power supply costs go away it's a win win if we create a win win out of it but in order to create it when when there are certain things you have to do with rates and i will i will be very honest with you what i'm going to be talking about tonight is very service you know the one i can get into a lot of the details  if you want me to and she want to give me the time and the details with respect to development of rate strategies moving forward to try to create these women when situations one of them  numbers are sort of consistent with i so knowing ones but we have consultants who think who believe that with electric vehicles answer teacher collector for cation of certain sectors which is one of the driven because of the mentality that's been created in our industry for the past hundred years when it comes to rates we have stuck fixed costs in variable charges for so long that nobody knows what the costs are anymore and until we separate them and send customers the proper price signals then things like electric vehicles can be promoted why because it's  ok and on that same question is is this just sort of assumption based or have you looked out ahead for the next five years figured out what you think you need for capital and make sure that you're feeding that into this process knowing project cvs as our that talked about it's kind of in the in a calming way accountants way of looking at it we should be earning about a main dollars a year in operating income yet we're falling short of that not much though eight hundred thousand the first  two seven and actually down point in the know what coverage ratio is now you should general obligation bonds that's highly unusual it's highly unusual for an electric utilities to general obligation bombs the reason is because every community only has so much ability it is so much debt and electric utilities needs are so great that it tends to push the cities over their ability to issue bonds for themselves so most electric utilities issue revenue bonds revenue bonds are secured by the the utility itself and as a result of that you covenants is you have to stay above a one point two coverage typically sometimes as one point two five but the if i were to target and one point two coverage for you because electric sales are so dependent on weather fifty percent the time to fill coverage so as a result we had a safety factor point two so we target a minimum coverage of one point four and you can see that even though the other two matrixes are bad that one is and the reason that's happening and this is something else that's unusual is eighty five percent of the equity in the system the book value the system you go down on so you've issued debt probably in times maybe you shouldn't be we just built the transfer station and we issue general obligation bonds through this expensive so we decided to do with through the crowd as long as the community has the ability to do that but what that did as you could have financed a certain amount of that out of your cash you didn't have to issue debt for the whole month and as a result your debt equity ratios point eight five where typical that system such as yourself the debt equity ratios average is around point three and but that's the only target that's really falling below all right so to correct that you have to question me for each of i'm not certain why so help me understand i guess the recommended minimum recommendations as to what we should do with that cash as a relates to other questions around how to dress the coverage ratio and what how this relates to any rate changes actually i want to trust that part of it right now the as i mentioned there's two things that are of a concern with you till the other i mean this is a great ritual is it's financially stable as time goes on that the ratio will be declining quite substantially and probably about twenty twenty four twenty twenty five you'll be in more of a normal range the reason this happened i think i know how much debt was issued for the transfer station but substation i'm sorry the but a portion of that probably should have been drawn cash reserve levels below the minimum that then target has a need for a bond issue at that point and that's how we look at it you know that there is there is actually a method to identify how much this so is there are in there because you probably issued debt when he didn't have to i mean in a nutshell debt was issued we didn't have to as a result of that increase your cash also as the same part of there's a couple things with that one we said that we want to make sure we kept favorable that coverage ratio and that's kind of what's driving it there's another thing also is by having small periodic rated just moments customers tend to understand that your costs go up you know and with the chili sometimes get themselves in trouble with is they don't pass those costs on and they allow them to build up because the need for the increase doesn't go away every year just keeps getting worse until it gets to a point where the utility can no longer function and then they have to have very large rate increases and those are usually the utilities utility in trouble when you have start having increases and exceed ten percent a year yeah so let these small periodic adjustments tend to be very acceptable to customers actually it we have been facing i mean those are the other pressures except cash balances not having a p p p p t a in advance you know we're looking for a place to live on that and fortunately we have the cash balances to  them this is the first question i'm going to ask the board about are you in agreement with the reed track and there's actually a kind of a side question of that if there increases are so  small the question then it's probably a lot easier on everybody to design three years of the reads them approved at once january one this from twenty one thousand this is the rates twenty twenty twenty twenty one and they basically don't have to deal with this again for a few years that's intriguing i mean one of the one of the concerns that which caused us to embark on this whole process was the feeling that our rates are high compared to other muni's and looking at them we are in the top five and the question is we're trying to drill drill down to find out why and so projecting rate increases albeit small every year is kind of not going in the direction we're opening over hoping to find out why we're higher than the others and get us down to factor you are residentially to have a mode probably one of the most highly residential utilities that work poor in residential customers tend to pick about seven o'clock in the evening and when you have other types of customers a commercial industrial they fill in those other time periods with use so there their usage pattern is better in other words the there the difference between the peak in a sense and the average useful recourse if you're a year is fairly close when the load factor drops and you are at forty two percent annual which is the worst course of a year and so we took that the average in other words what the average is for the course of the let's say hypothetically it's the average usage was twenty maybe once if you took all that average is forty two percent of the peak all right and i just went back because you know and looked at a number of utilities it would then work for this afternoon i mean the lowest i've found is fifty three and here forty use and there is a thing in dubai there is really well there is one thing you can help and that is more advance rate structures you're perfect candidate for it you have an am i system in a nutshell what coverage ratio is is if you look at the cash that's generated from the operations of the utility and then you compare that cas to your debt service payment now when you issue debt revenue bonds it comes with the bond covenant they have to maintain at least it's anywhere from one point one to one point two five but the average is about one point two the u s general obligation bonds general obligation doesn't come with a bond covenant however you still have to get a bond rating that bond rating is driven by guess what your debt coverage ratio if you took net income plus depreciation interest expense that's your cash generated from operations if you divide that by debt service payment that's a calculation it's one point two seven you see the later years actually falling  some larger utilities that sometimes utility set rate based on coverage and what they do is a target like national two times coverage so in other words they set rates if they start falling below the two times coverage they increase rates and so that becomes you know their main factor because they rely on that quite heavily so it won't be for me just a bulls theatregoers that's just all really well when it comes to cas the utility needs cash first of all for working capital because there's a timing difference between when you pay bills in the money customers use it's forty five six percent calculation and that translates into but seven or eight days lake but then we look at risk factors ok what's your exposure to a catastrophic event something catastrophic event something bad happening infrastructure hurricanes wind storms ice storms so we don't necessarily want enough cash reserves maybe you do to fund an entire catastrophic event we just want to make sure enough cash reserves that we have enough to start to repair or replacement process right now we also took into account we look at things like disability of your rate structure is or is your rate structure stable like  you know because you have a low cost of charge you have the rates including duct tape so you're rate structure is very unstable so that's a risk what your exposure to the loss of a major customer you have some exposure but not significant all right so we factor all those risk items in to identify what the minimum cash reserve is also capital improvements we want to make sure you have enough cash reserves utility holds cash or holding it for her customers best interests because first of all we want to maintain the system we need the cash to do it but secondly we want stable rates and by holding cash is something adverse happens like for example a number of years ago you had a lot of congestion charges in the in the northwest well if that were to occur and some utilities were able to do this changes in power supply costs either because you have a power p c a mechanism but there's still the thirty day late in your recovery on the post hostage just meant mechanism that difference your debt service payment between when you pay bills and get the money from customers like you go all through the month of january paying a labor and supplies and then at the end of the month theoretically read all the meters on the happens there is at the end of the month some becomes it reads a post by meter sends you a bill you get the bill the first week of february you don't have to pay until the third or fourth week so the working capital aid is greatly reduced so that's why we only use a four and a half percent those are directly calculated we can calculate them we also calculate with the services a pretty large number three percent correct all right your debt service payments occur twice a year usually one is principal and interest the other one interest and so we're looking at the bigger portion of the two and that's eighty three percent is in one payment calculated for the stability of rate structures which that's out of revenues total revenues so that's the calculate what kind of what's the calculation can you get to the one percent that one did that was the subjective one yeah that's a subjective assessment there are certain ones that are subjective and actually when you look below here you'll see more subjectivity  you say one percent the number that we get our debt ratio because the one percent number is because your rate structures have a certain amount of instability in them and so we feel like you have exposure to changes in really it is because what is is the ideal rate structure would be to set a customer charge we have a cost service that he says have time of use rates and they have demand charges for everyone like residential demand charges and the reason for that is the utility has the size the distribution infrastructure to handle each customer's peak irrespective when it occurs that transformer that sits in front of a home has to be sized to handle a customer's peak demand and like if they have solar yes besides they have a ball both what they take and what they get that so there's different things so that needs to be recovered through ideally a demand church right now and i understand that as i get your point which is a good one which is that we can reduce the peak by making people use power at different times instead of everyone coming home and turning on the lights all the same time with the smart meters and all that we will lower our totally correct you're correct from that standpoint however the downside is that when you don't charge the proper customer church you're creating cautious so that and that's the balance of it all you have social environmental objectives her three months of the year the but then you have the winters that are really cold and people want to leave and go south but we don't charge the proper customer charge a year on rate payers the ones they have to endure the michigan winners  subsidize the seasonal customers so there's a fairness issue there now there's a certain perception some of it's right some that's not right that low income i will use customers and there is definitely some low income customers there are little use but i'll guarantee one thing there's a lot of low income that are high use because they also live in you think you're helping low income you you might be helping some but then you're hurting others now you've done a totally correct here you have a low income assistance rate which is something i try to not there from a perspective you can't justify a low income assistance rate however there is that social aspect of things and also by having a low income assistance rate you shut them off either which is a figure we carry and so ultimately it's you know i will just one more thing on the low income rate they have it's the it's the most incentivized low income assistance rain i've seen anywhere they say that on average twenty dollars a month on that low income assistance where people can afford it and they can't afford to necessarily have an issue for them for twenty eight dollars yeah and you know it's not a big great class perfect system demand charges you disincentive eyes energy conservation but you may make your system your rate structure more stable and so there's just that's the to which seems to be the obvious we haven't done the great study yet so but it sounds like that may be one of the main drivers which week again we're not going to change from being ninety three percent residential anytime soon so if you can spread that load out and it sounds like conservation is the way to do incentivizing people to do that saves us money and maybe there's some instability that you could cover with a little raise in the fix and a little bit here i mean that's where you'd have to run the numbers and find the sweet spot on the chart but there may be some mix of the two but i don't want to lose the when you improve load factor they benefit from demand ter just because what happens is when the the load factor for energy efficient c average load factor residential customers about seventeen percent bad load factor when they started selling energy efficiency they stand to start getting in the med sometimes high twenty's be even seen in the thirty's that's energy efficiency because energy efficiency programs are often targeted at reducing customer usage at the time when they use in the most right you know which is going to lower the demand yes and but they're still using energy at different times for the most part does not reduce the customer's demand of the distribution system right now a demand charge will incentivize the rooftop solar customers to install battery because now what's go not there could i add one additional item to that too we're talking about you know the benefits of energy you know the efficiency program we have in the d s a mansion program adds to the mix but i think it's noteworthy to keep in mind as we look at potential energy road maps that are perhaps coming down the pike and what we want to do with the record portfolio so right now part of that argument is you know as we conserve we're also not using gas plants but all but another side effort on our part is looking at moving away from those fossil fuels and so now if we follow you know i want to i want to respond to your question there's two other pieces and i'm getting way deep in the weeds i find i talked about the distribution peak the system the distribution system the infrastructure is close to the customers besides they ha peak that's a portion of reduced abuse is now there's two there's also a peak that when you get further back in the system like your substations and your sub transmission facilities those are sole that we're also trying to reduce and there's the trans the peak related to the capacity to believe that's the term that different time that we're also trying to reduce so there's four different peaks in the system and what i'm talking about is this one piece of the for the demand turret for this piece here the other items to me are best born in the the time of use rate you're talking about fixed and variable the capacity costs related to the transmission the infrastructure further back to the distribution system and the capacity needs of the system what we do is we take that fixed cost those fixed costs we roll it into the peak energy rates so that creates that differential between on peak and off peak so that way we're sending a consistent pricing of the customer to move away from that time period and so and that's what creates the differential so the customer does shift the usage there's a significant incentive there there's potential savings right now your energy rates are high your variable costs are low but the problem is we can't send that variable price signal because we have the fixed cost we have to recover so right now we're bearing the fixed costs that's your discretion if you if you want that developed and the time use rate is not fall out of a cost of service to the record is a separate in else s the what i'm looking for is basically your existing rate structure and well how can we wrong but i think that's right there are some out there some optional ones and i've also read that the differential between the on and off peak to be really large in order to unsent people i mean that's old news but i have read that what i mean whatever might be you know but i would imagine as you move towards a more eve evey's and you move towards more batteries where you can schedule the consumption i would imagine even smaller differences on schedule consumption would drive me mad the other hand those are true statement i want to make but it's going to boggle your mind take the transmission system i don't remember exactly the thing is nine dollars a kid i'm just a transmission nine dollars a kid have a right that's built this in your monthly peak what that means is that you're not charging anything for seven hundred forty three hours a month that one hour in the month if you can reduce one kilowatt hour off your peak and that hour you save nine dollars a kilowatt hour nine dollars so just to give you an idea the potential that's there and that's off the system that's off the ice so grab regional yeah and the customer you know if we can send the customer actually we're almost right at cost of sort of a pretty good shape overall as a class are doing really well so what that means is if you did approve a one percent increase the resident trolls maybe if you give me some bandwidth i give them slightly less obviously some of you know about the low income they need a fifty seven percent increase to meet the cost service record do that right but just see in here where that number excuse me where did stay subsidy get spread does it get spread just to the residential in the residential class or does it get spread to more of a customers now i'm sorry it gets spread to every everybody yeah your commercial class here so customers with the monthly peak demand of more than thirty are build on demand rain so there is if you're less than thirty you don't have the demand for a few more than thirty but less than seventy five you have a demand rate so i mean if you go to the belmont light website and look at number of rates or is only nine rates here you see sixteen fifteen because they've they've been brought in this small  i think they're in the blue thirty the because we had the demands on them i think we want to run them separately so we because we had good debt on them better than the other groups so we separated them oh yeah i'm just saying why is the commercial demand in the commercial demand monitored in two different categories it's not if you look at the rates on the website there's no there's nothing about the man monitored commercial it's the same rate we can actually get to the right so commercial was demand we have we charge them demand charges right all other commercial we don't charge for some of the commercial customers we just monitor that demand to make sure that they're not level of demand for a fifteen minute period oh awesome sigh of a day that was how it's going to be permissible to change the fixed rate payment for commercial and residential separately could you shift some of the fixed what it's all based on load profile would load at is the cost allocation study is is driven off of load research which tells us how customers are using electricity in each buckets across for analysis but right now we only have nine rates so are you suggesting that you would create additional don't last no definitely not look at yeah within even though there's only nine rates there is for commercial there's a demand and no demand demanding on your right demand level i have to say i still don't understand what the demand monitored number number is if i could either have to be if they're in the commercial no demand that would change the numbers for the no demand if it's in the demand i just don't know what those people are if their demand customers or non demand customers and i think they should put and be put into one of the other categories and we can certainly do that because just tell me if i'm wrong but if you have a group that's below thirty k w but we don't really know everybody if they can exceed thirty they don't want to demand right so because of that the utility departments demand recording meters on them so that demand is respect even though it's confusing in another because of granularity if we were to increase like the demand church for the components it's going to affect certain customers or let's say we wanted to lower the demand from thirty town we would have the ability to identify how the t v and see the impacts but i do agree that i mean it's causing confusion we can certainly go through and just show the nine re classes i don't know if that's really relevant to night though because i'm really just looking for guidance and we can provide that with the rate to sign process and also just mention you know we have thirty k you can change any of these parameters around thirty k w could be changed to twenty five or forty for instance and it's power easy class of service there's a twelve month ratchet in there which i know my experience was pretty utilities are moving away from that and i don't know if that's still the case but subjective cost of doing business with the service that you provide here it's let's put it this way more it's oh as time has gone on very little of it  subject no eased to be years ago most of it was subjective but because we're getting better better and better load research information on how customers use electricity through the am i here's a go we didn't have that so we had very limited factors to identify how customers use it now we become more accurate with that said there's always a certain amount of subjectivity that's involved that i want  payroll transformer's payroll service drop so it's all buried within those groupings so when it comes to the substations we allocate that basin who's causing the peaks in the substations yeah it could be allocated differently but you know we try to use what we feel are the best cost drivers and so when you get into admin either expenses or asset investments are good drivers for to indicate where the time is being spent so and that's just been our experience so we'll allocated in that fashion just to know if there was a particular class of customers that took a lot of you could be more green and get it down correct spreading the words correct that that is absolutely correct so along those lines was there anything done in this study that would take a look at belmont light versus other needs and try t benchmark of our cost structure is inconsistent with best practices in the place because it is one thing to take a look at your current cost structure and allocated to rate rises nothing to say are we operating as efficiently as we possibly could be and ther or their facility the electric utility had the cost install the mean updated version they also have the responsibility to repair or replace it to read it to bill if the cost of the service drop there's no question those are fix costs that do not vary based consumption now there's also we need to have a wired home between the substation and the home there has to be a way or we can't transmit that wireless so what the cost to service that he's done this and done this way for one hundred years it does what's called the minimum system analysis what's the cost to install the minimum size wiring to get that wire from the substation that also that portion also goes into the customer church it's probably right now today the most controversial area the chill of these and have moved this customer charge up an five to ten years probably they've been moving it upward and you know the reason what's driving the need to move it up isn't just what the cost service stays always it was a fact the there's a lot of variability and how customers use electricity almost to the point where they should be in their own weight class some of them because classes were established peace and common usage patterns they're not anymore so that's been forcing us to try to get a rates structure is more accurate to prevent shifting of cost and the easiest thing to do the easiest is increase it i'd probably want to do it at the smart meters you could do yeah i probably want to do in a manner that's different than your thinking i'd probably want to implement something closer to the numbers that come up because that could get you more to what chris is talking about a large enough number to make a difference and not that they pay for use more kilowatt hours but you actually give them a well over kilowatt hour charge on top of that which would really incentivize people to us drop the usage or spread it out or whatever we decide to do by the  think one of the points of a cost service study is putting white customers into theirs into the same grade class and so i don't know by splitting it up you may be violating maybe their own word but testing that concept would you agree with that mark or not i do the the industry is headed down the the reactive way of dealing with it is a put rate structures in place that mimic a cost period that then that can be used for everybody and that would be especially time use but the but the thing is right now you know time use is one thing be still had to fix components of getting a bill to a customer those costs do not vary based to consumption period and when it comes to low income you have a long commit systems rate so that's that is not an issue here so by not set in the customer in charge properly what you doing is you're way in the summer months or summer homes and they're contributing to their forty two percent load factor because they're here creating the peaks in the summer they're not here in the winter and we have to have the capacity for get what a lot of people i think you say if i don't if i'm conserving people are going to notice yes i think well i don't know i mean a large change like that because you did it incrementally one time but it's a but it's also it's also the policy decision it's not the money  tension here but my experience maybe it's a little bit different in that in the context of a small muni maybe there's not the same kind of customer to do it all at once it struck me if you do it you know fifty cents a year dollar a year yes it's a different mark would there be speaking how is our fixed charge for residential customers compared to the other forty years that are out there i don't know i just would that would be the point it would be yeah that would be interesting to your point i mean pretty charisse knows what the customer charges unconquered of reasons a and i actually have a question in a way that perhaps you can help me answer but part of the variable charge point is the incentives for usage patterns but so what we're talking about is a financial driver for behavioral change so can we accomplish the same behavioral change with say rebates or some other financial mechanism that incentivizes behavior and it doesn't have to necessarily be a variable rate it could just be  do all that and you get the twenty five dollars like it's not you know you got to make it simpler and it's got to be more meaningful i'm sure but mark we've talked a lot about incentives so we will continue to talk about incentives my conscious about the environment in general maybe i don't know but how much would the price meant you know price differences impact we maybe some consumers but i think in general i don't  more of a general like would you pay more on your bill to get greener and most people said yes and we broke it down by how much more would you pay says a little bit of that in there but it's not the target and you can always go back to that firm that you could do a search they were really good get a survey of like a talked about at some point in the press about holding a public meeting to float a few of these ideas to see you know maybe everybody is good with the higher demand charge maybe there's a lot of opposition to once we get done with this whole second phase i think that mark's going to be doing about the rate structure stuff or this is just part while i know and then we're early to before we have i would definitely encourage having a public forum on it because this is important you know it's one of the things that's hope in this tonight is to actually get the direction on those three the residential customer charge by a dollar that translates into point nine percent overall increase the class so everybody will see a dollar increase if he wanted crease customer charge by a dollar if you want to increase customer the sixteen hundred i mean  i don't know if i want to give my opinion about th the inclining blocks that accomplishes the same goals and now makes rates more straightforward and you're not being penalize for doing the right thing yet you didn't want anyone else around the table of services where thirty six percent higher than the revenues how much would you start to change that and i did four steps would you do it in five steps would you may take a lot years in other words that depends on the leeway you give me like if you gave me a plus or minus two percent they go up about three three percent now with that said there's often time to get direction to move some classes quicker well in general plus or minus two percent of this class move it x amount more and so i'd also just mention sort of the power e g the where we  had we could do a cut customer charge up to a thousand dollars i've got a conflict of interest here because i've long to temple bethel it's just it's a synagogue church it sometimes has exceeded the seventy five k w they have a thousand dollar customer charge so this is not just i guess my point is it's not just industrial customers that can subject us it's far smaller units that might be very sensitive to how much they're being paid to be charged you because i can take some of it off my taxes right if i'm a resident i don't get that kind of this production right so it's almost like if you figure taxes into here it's less of an impact if you raise commercial  they continually got more of the increase all of the sudden  i heard heard you mention the value of solar and that it's value solar you recognize the value of it but it's not part of of the cost of service study but will be component and and in addition to the value of solar the might be more broadly the value of load management so you take into account evey's residential battery a as an add on analysis thank you thank you for the comment so mark i timed obviously continues to clip on here  i mention two percent but really to be honest with the i personally would probably be more comfortable with the plus or minus one which means that no customer would see an increase greater than two percent some would see an increase w increase at all but within that nobody would see details with that said you had specific re classes that are way out of line they're small they're city related but if we if we did a plus or minus one percent in one hundred years we will get there maybe we need to go as much as three percent on that and just give him a three percent increase for the ones that are where the line at least move in that direction not cause r on the customer church and just in the feeling that i've gotten in the room normally in your situation i would remember recommend a two dollar increase i don't think that that's something that  i would feel comfortable just in just what i've heard i think a dollar is probably what should be done a dollar increase in the customer charge each year which means that we're not going do anything with energy rates however we could go two ones i would i would look at the impacts i mean the commercial i may go to worm possibly three of us are going to dramatically impact and the power i'm a look at the impacts i think we need to have a public forum before we adopted say that commercial demand has been too much by two point seven percent i mean right it's and i'm in the dollars at like twenty grand if i can give him my within ten percent of cost service that's pretty good there's no utility in the country that charges one hundred percent cost service based rates you couldn't if you wanted to and because it's going to change every year to some degree and so the objective is to take as close the cost of service so this that's part of the reason always costs a service to drive or direction and even though we have a negative email lists we look at sacramento municipal utility district in california for progressive insights what are they doing what can we have off from them see you know austin energy in texas they have progressive issues so what are they you're exposed to this frequently or that there is a willingness i'd say within this board i think within the community more broadly to try to make sure we are incentivizing for the green behaviors that we want in our community can you bake that into the proposals  if you've got specific examples of things that are working i think it would be great to make sure that so we've been saying i would have been comparing how much would collapse and how much was spent and the difference we were collecting through the chart but it wasn't like overall rate increase because based read we didn't change them since fifteen  mark something you said that you could do a two dollar increase and and and i didn't hear what the last bit was well i can what i could do is one of two things the easy thing to do would be to take customer target is of course i'm limited in how i can answer the car put the question up but the question was is your customer charge less residential less than ten dollars between ten and fifteen or over fifteen or thirty percent or less than ten thirty percent where between ten and fifteen and thirty percent or over fifteen percent so just kind of give you just a general perspective civil into a loving being that second you're talking to yes that's great so thank you very much for the pulling us together i think everybody around the room really appreciates the work that went into it as well as the insights that we now have which we haven't had for years so that's gr