er investment company versus universal forest product that credit transactions are so narrow it was excluded from the scope of the defense even give substantially contemporaneous isn't that kind of bizarre in that preferences preferences involve payments on account of  this fundamental problem of if you construe the contemporaneous or changed defenses not including try to credit transactions in wadi of rounders the defense of statutory nobody i don't think the district court said even a word about that subject here on our excludes literally every conceivable transaction to which the contemporaneous exchange defense could apply is the real problem here is that the bankruptcy court didn't decide intent did not decide the issue of intent and i think what judge perry is referring to terms of judge jordan having cleaned it up is the fact that he did focus on the fact that there needs to be a requisite intent time but we don't have a finding as to intent what is there in the record as to the intent of the parties p s i wonder if the parties have to different intents how do you how you resolve that but what's in the record about the party's inten intend contemporaneous exchanges in fact to the trial work of self help the vast majority of the transfers in this case were to use his trials virtually simultaneously so the cork by by way of what contemporaneous means if you don't attach the word substantial to i i'm not sure there is an answer to that question but also the the one of the policy objectives of the contemporaneous exchange defense is to encourage people to continue to do short term federal transactions with the debtor is it ever sent a financial trouble in order for that policy could be affected the parties must act with intent they have to intend to engage in a credit transaction because it's  been up there when it's whenever you're getting up there toward that credit they're looking for either another half a million dollars or a million dollars lump sum to come in correct now why would they be looking for that if he has to pay only prominently in my papers that if you weren't paying for past debt if you weren't paying for past that you wouldn't have a problem with all of the orders are under a million dollars right if i were paying for past that there wouldn't be a preference that's the problem there wouldn't be a credit line that was constantly being paid off and new value extended correct five hundred thousand would be paid taking the debt down to five hundred thousand immediately they could ship another five hundred thousand dollars correct not exactly not exactly tell me how i'm i'm wrong because what i'm getting at is and this is an argument that hasn't made me that i don't know if it would be valid but if it were that the pain down gave rise to the existence and the utilization of new credit which equals new value why does that not you know resolve if five hundred dollars dollars of shipments had gone out and while those shipments were going out overnight you would be received five hundred thousand dollars with a few words the new orders would not ship unless one million was paid in other words those five and have gotten something somebody else didn't get if the creditor that contributes something back into the estate in the terms of new value in other shipments then that really is what this is all about is this correct these these paintings were happening every two and a half days million creditor in that sense i think absolutely not the reason we want to prefer creditor is that every time we get paid leave extended the window into stuff you get to chronic and we are not like a similarly situated creditor with a bunch of old bet that gets paid off on the eve of bankruptcy that the three years prior to bankruptcy in seventeen days or less and this is a historical fast paced customer as opposed to matter over the ninety days did you give us good as you got now without down council don't shake your head of cou speak to the mike when you get up but did you give as good as you got in terms of getting payment and giving product during those ninety days we have differences you shipped twenty million dollars worth and you got twenty million dollar  wire or overnight delivery for these particular payments that we're now going to ship out to you that's a very important distinction and i would like to court to look at the appendix thirty twenty five very important thirty twenty four thirteen twenty five which is a critical factor receive wire transfers as needed to keep us admirable of the one million dollars do you see that answer yes so that the wires were supposed to reduce the credit limit so that additional purchases could be made correct correct point to getting at credit and what happened was because of the size of slowdowns insured and delays the deal was done that the package was promised that it would have this one million dollars it was denied that then if you look at dollars but more than just money so he had the most preferred creditor that i could think of as a bankruptcy attorney you have a situation where the parties had a deal the deal was that we were going to make sure that we would always have a million dollars of credit and if you can hold this type of c please do not discuss this but they still believe they have a credit a one million dollars credit limit they are wired transferring to us based on the orders in the system he orders to start to ship slower so we've been able to stay ahead of the game and the reason send us a thousand dollars in order for them products oh by the way he says another thousand dollars but meanwhile on the thousands of good job you file bankruptcy now all of a sudden the credit card company has a thousand dollars  clear that for example they shipped sixteen million dollars worth of product but got seventy five or so that is clear by again thirteen twenty five because if you look at thirteen twenty five we'll see  transaction that doesn't that doesn't end the argument because preference is by their nature are and see debt or credit but i think that's different there are intending to be a credit transaction is not the same thing as half or approximately half of the money went to the shipments that it had shipped with him few hours or period for the pingers received and the order was applied to shipments that hadn't got going out it was paid in advance and that's how we result to achieve the result in this case where you