the hearing will now come to order good morning welcome today's hearing providing aviation weather services to the admiral aviation administration this subcommittee has frequently struggled with the peculiar nonchalance of some government agencies in the face of the obvious dysfunction of critical programs today we struggle with the equally peculiar determination by the f a a to solve a problem that appears not to exist  to fix what ain't broke or appears not to be broke the current system of delivering aviation weather products for air traffic controllers appears to work pretty well for thirty years a national weather the weather service ws has provided support to the federal aviation administration through aviation weather forecast units that are located at each of the twenty one regional air centers there are eighty four weather  forecasters spread among those twenty one centers offering sixteen hours of service each day and you'll call step twelve million system appears to be lean and well suited to air traffic air traffic controllers needs in two thousand and six booz allen hamilton conducted a survey of air traffic controllers at seven of the regional air traffic centers under contract with the f a a their conclusion was apparently not what the f a a wanted to hear booz allen found that air traffic controllers have a strong desire to have own flight weather forecasters and considered the services of the meteorologists highly valuable and the air traffic controllers expressed since the timothy that's the phrase of booz solve a system would provide better service or even service as good as what the in the b s now provides again air traffic controllers like the n w s system just fine and don't want to change it g a o concludes that the a settled for a solution for reorganizing aviation weather services before they could they could clearly articulate their own requirements for those services and before they had given any thought to how to measure existing performance in other words f a a decided on a solution before they figured out if they had a problem only since the last g a o report of two thousand and eight has the f a a and the national weather service begun to develop performance metrics  aviation weather units now for the first time and exercises underway by f a a and in the b s to baseline the performance of the existing units through these baselines or those though these baselines are built on impressionistic interviews rather than a steady aggregation of hard performance numbers we all support performance based decisions and a commitment to continuing improvement to sl f a a and other government agencies frequently use but the reality is that performance based decisions making if performance based decision making require meaningful rigorous performance metrics the f a a does not have those but has determined that a new organization organizational structure is needed the f a a says that this consolidation were bought a solid platform to organizations the federal aviation administration has claimed that the consolidation will save at least two million dollars but those savings can only come through reducing the number of weather forecasters who are dedicated to supporting the needs of aviation ultimately the f a a is push for a plan to consolidate aviation weather services that does not respond to a clearly articulated need or problem and would change a system that has air traffic controllers full support a shift in how services are delivered will cost money to task and if adopted will create new risks that don't exist in the current system perhaps that will result in a greater mass critical mass of expertise in one place but the downsizing of traffic controllers care about a lot in preparing for this hearing the subcommittee gathered information from the f a a the end of b s the national transportation safety board the air traffic controllers union the weather service employees union and the government accountability office  also receive the witnesses testimony in recent days the point of the exercise of this new structure is still hard to understand and with that i now recognize the ranking member  to the f a a as an instrument rated pilot myself understand that aviation weather forecasting is critically important aside from the obvious and primary concern of safety the f a a estimates that weather related delays have cost forty one day in dollars in the socio economic impact on the u s economy in order to ensure safety mitigate these impacts the weather service provides aviation weather informational reimbursable basis to the f says these organizations are tasked with providing aviation weather information and ensuring air traffic safety coordination is imperative unfortunately several reviews in recent years have found opportunities where coordination could be strengthened and services improved in an attempt to address these issues and decrease operating costs the f a a requested the weather service to restructure its center weather service units by consolidating offices provide remote forward in june by the weather service is far from perfect i think they will even admit this they clearly have to work have work to do to establish performance based lines to ensure that service will not be degraded they have challenges relating to infrastructure and technology questions remain about how this will fit within the f a s next gen initiative if at all and in a g in agency collaboration remains a concern well i may seem that recent g a o reviews are critical of the weather services proposals one has to realize that the weather service is simply responding to the f a s direction this coronation process between the two entities is unique and perplexing the f a a is acting as a customer for weather service products and has provided the weather service with its requirements because the f a a no longer considers private vendors an option for failing these requirements the weather service is in essence a sole source contractor for f a a a situation then is usually relish as it puts them in an a negotiating position instead the weather service has put forth several proposals only to have them rejected most recently because of cost i hope the f a a realizes the new requirements are usually accompanied by new cost sure technological advancements improved processes can achieve cost savings but when a customer demands more from its vendor it should be willing to pay for it similarly if a customer lost pay less for a product they shouldn't be surprised when they get less in return this may seem like trivial bureaucratic bickering but it has ruled world implications to both commerce and airline passenger safety i'm happy hear that coordination between the two entities entities is strengthening and hope that the partnership can found a solution that i'm able to both parties because ultimately the customers are our constituents and the vendor is the government as a pilot myself i'll do everything i can to make sure this transaction goes smoothly and that the pilots and passengers in the air have the information that they fairly frequent witness here for the subcommittee he is the director of information technology management issues at the governing council the office of g a o dr jack caves is the system administrator for national weather service at the f a a each of our witnesses should know you will have five minutes for your spoken testimony written testimony will be included in the record for the hearing when you have completed your spoken testimony you will be given please stand and raise your right you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth work the national weather service supports the federal aviation administration by providing aviation related forecasts and warnings at air traffic control and route centers across the country these forecasts and warnings include information on thunderstorms air turbulence and i cing these services are provided through an interagency agreement and f a a reimburses n w s approximately twelve million dollars annually for them last year i testified on the many issues with this arrangement which included  providing inconsistent weather products across the twenty one and route centers f a s inability to clearly define requirements for what it needs both agencies lack of performance measures to ensure quality of weather observations and multiple proposals to restructure that were each rejected a brief history of these proposals is worth revisiting in two thousand and five f a a requested that n w s restructure to a smaller number of sites to reduce costs in two thousand and six the proposal was submitted which f a a rejected in two thousand and seven because it did not reduce the number of sites or costs in december two thousand and seven f a a provided n w s with a new set of requirements and requested a proposal for three operational concepts and w s provided this proposal in may two thousand and eight but f a a rejected it because the costs were too high in september two thousand and eight  requested that n w s provide another restructuring proposal by december two thousand and eight to go to two sites and ws submitted this proposal last month six months later than when it was due the proposal reduces the weather units from twenty to two locations reduces n w s staff from eighty four to fifty is planned takes three years will cost almost thirteen million dollars and is expected to reduce the annual cost by roughly two million dollars per year f a a plans to respond to this proposal by august third so four years into this we're now on our third major restructuring proposal with no clear business case driving the potential change in addition there are many challenges f a a and n w s must address if they decide to move forward with the latest proposal before getting into these challenges i would like to knowledge that there has been some progress by n w s in improving the consistency of their weather products and defining in baselining certain performance measures but much work still remains here on both fronts turning to the challenges my written testimony lays out several major challenges if the current weather aviation structure is modified i'd like to highlight five of these first inner agency collaboration these agencies have not worked well together to resolve issues into complicated meaningful change since two thousand and five f a s rejected all proposals and we have had four years of very little action second solidifying requirements f a a provided a comprehensive set of requirements in january two thousand and eight and these have not been updated despite the fact that modifications have been discussed by the two agencies it is extremely important to formally update requirements given the historical working relationship third aligning restructuring with the next generation air transportation system neither agency has ensured that the restructuring aligns with the next gen national vision for restructuring air traffic facilities for ensuring no degradation of service in its proposal n w s plans to demonstrate the new two site operational concept in a nine month demonstration project in addition n w s has proposed that an in depth independent evaluation team of both government and industry officials view this demonstration while these are logical steps the performance measures to demonstrate no degradation of service have not been  fined and as we have stated prior baseline metrics are limited ensuring no degradation of service will be extremely difficult if not impossible without having a clear set of performance metrics fifth technology transition to restructure aviation weather services both agencies need to modify weather systems moving forward n w s an f a a need to approve performance measures and continue to baseline performance improving or agency collaboration by agreeing to a future concept of operations finalizing clearly document requirements for aviation weather services ensure that any restructuring is aligned with the next gen initiative undertake a comprehensive demonstration that measure success against baseline performance measures to ensure that any restructuring does not result in degraded service and does not jeopardize safety and finally ended the s n f a need to effectively transition the technologies to a new operational concept if in fact this is national weather service has a line office within the national oceanic and atmospheric administration the weather service plays a critical role in providing weather information to the f a a in support of their mission for safe and efficient operation of the national airspace system we provide warnings forecasts miro logical advice anscombe consultations throughout all phases of flight including preflight planning and operations these services come from many national weather service offices including our  offices the alaskan aviation weather unit the volcanic ash advisory centers the aviation weather center and center weather service units see the o p s use for short we're committed to providing quality aviation weather services let me focus on c b s use meteorologist said r c to provide weather advisories forecasts and advice to air traffic management the c w are located at each of the twenty one f a a air traffic control centers use operate sixteen hours per day typically between five am and nine p m local time seven days a week when air traffic is at its peak since the last hearing in two thousand and eight f a a and the national weather service have worked to refine service requirements the weather service delivered a revised response in june of this year our response provides proposes rather to provide support from two centers in the lower forty eight states as part of our approach we plan to conduct a demonstration validation or dembo to objectively test and validate the viability of this solution a critical component of our response and a prerequisite before any decision is made to change the operational structure of  support is to demonstrate the capability of meeting f a a requirements from two centers with no degradation of aviation weather services and no impact to safety if the demonstration is successful consolidation of twenty c w issues in the lower forty eight states into two centers as proposed each center would serve as an operational backup for the other new weather products and services including the provision of twenty four by seven or twenty four hours a day seven days a week whether support services will be introduced to meet f a a requirements in support of the national airspace system we will work collaboratively with the f a a to plan conduct and evaluate to ensure that the proposed director does not degrade aviation weather services the national academy of sciences has agreed to provide unbiased expertise to oversee and evaluate the results of the dam val the f a a has stated that face to face services and briefings are no longer required we believe new technology can be leveraged to allow remote service and improve consistency our response provides for remote briefing services to f a a terminal radar approach control and control tower personnel which are currently not colocated with our c w issues reviewed our staffing model and are confident we can absorb the thirty four positions through normal attrition our forty two month schedule for transition to a consolidated c b s you structure including a planning phase a nine month period for dems followed by transition to the new structure we've been working with the f a a to define future c b s you services in addition over the past eighteen months we've been working to improve the consistency and quality of existing c w c to aviation weather services our joint say to be as you site evaluations an ongoing discussion with the f a a are helping us to establishing refined baseline performance measures by this fall these measures will provide the basis for evaluating and continuing to improve our services no recognizes the next generation air transportation system or next gen will result in a system wide air traffic management transformation this transformation will affect how we collect manage and disseminate weather related information and how the f a a makes weather related decisions we also recognize need for close coordination with the federal weather community to meet next gen whether support needs know is working with the joint planning and development office to fully integrate know as weather information service improvements into the next development received the g a o strapped report review of what aviation weather restructuring we're reviewing the draft report and developing our action plan moreover we believe our june two thousand and nine response to the f a a for c w shoe services addresses some of the key recommendations in the draft report including dam val overseen by the national academy of sciences to ensure involvement of stakeholders in an unbiased evaluation also highlighted in our response to the f a a is the importance of aligning organizational changes with next gen initiatives we agree with the need to establish baseline performance measures as stated by the g a o and we are working to cope now collecting data on four of the five standards originally developed by the f a a and the national weather service to establish that baseline we will continue to work together to review assessment and measurement methods for the fifth proposed standard forecast accuracy of these performance metrics are critical data points to evaluate the dam val the national weather service reaffirms its commitment to providing critical weather support that assist the f a a and managing the national airspace system the national airspace system must remain safe efficient and cost effective for the people of this country thank you for the opportunity to appear before you i'm happy to answer any questions you may have and efficient national airspace system reliable aviation weather forecasting is an integral part of that and the national weather services support has been a key component of that as well our operations data tells us that seventy percent of air traffic these are caused by weather to address this problem we are collaborating with the national weather service on aviation weather forecasting and how to improve that forecasting to promote safety and reduce weather delays in our constant quest improve aviation safety and efficiency we are looking to capitalize on technological improvements that have emerged over the last thirty years since c s u operations began technological improvements have changed the way in which weather information is generated disseminated and used in addition we have also asked now the national weather service to examine three different service methods first using the existing c b s you configuration second using a reduced number of c and third using one centralized facility to provide improved consistent and continuous weather service to senators twenty four hours per day seven days per week versus the current sixteen hours per day seven hours seven days per week service presently provided since the committee's last hearing on c b s use national weather service responded to our request with three alternatives each of these had some innovative ways to meet our requirements however none were accepted because the costs were too high for each alternative compared to the cost of the program last year the f a a advised national weather service that we preferred the single weather center solution but recognized the need for backup and request of the national weather service refine its proposal we were we see an opportunity to improve aviation weather forecasting services in the near term we expect this approach to provide finer resolution and more consistent and accurate forecasts that will improve the safety and efficiency of traffic flows through the national airspace system this consolidation or scuse me this consolidated c s u model would allow meter ologist to dynamically allocate resources to areas with active weather conditions having the most impact on aviation operations we understand that there may be some concern about providing weather services remotely i want to assure you that we have considerable experience with remote read weather briefings today c b s shoes provide remote support to terminal radar approached controls and select towers just as flight service stations provide remote weather briefings to pilots in addition providing weather services using this model is consistent with centralized weather operations jews internationally by the department of defense and by airlines and c b s use will not be the only source of aviation weather information for essays air traffic operations national weather service would continue to have approximately one hundred thirty meter ologists providing meterological watch and issuing forecasts for parts of the national airspace system from this weather forecast office offices and the aviation weather center providing both terminal and en route forecasts in addition to the benefits we expect to see in the near term a two weather center approach will also help aviation weather services tours of f a's future needs and vision in the next generation air transportation system or next gen one key concept of next gen is a common operational picture of weather information for all air traffic management decisions this concept is already being put into practice through the collective collaborative collective forecast product or c c f p the c c f p provides a common operational picture of convective weather on which to build the air traffic management plan f a a and national airspace system stakeholders now rely on the c c s p as a primary forecast product for an ass wide operations planning during the convective season consistent with next gen we need a common operational picture of all weather elements that impact air traffic and conclusion we are very hopeful about the benefits of the  service proposal however i want to assure the committee that our assessment of the national weather service proposal is not the final consideration prior to implementation let me be clear we will not change the current configuration until a demonstration validation show that we are able to effectively disseminate the most timely and accurate weather forecasting for the safe operation of flights in our system this concludes my remarks and i look forward to your questions thank you  that their traffic controllers strongly support keeping meteorologists where they are in the regional air traffic control centers where they can stand over their shoulder in times of weather crisis  mr day since air traffic controllers are the the consumers the customers for the weather services what role have they played in developing this proposal for the consolidation of services so the air traffic controllers have not had a central role in developing the requirements for these services however there has been assessments ongoing between the f a a and the national weather service is going out and reviewing the services with those be the c d s you cite reviews that we've now gotten a copy of yes or and there's been thirteen completed other twenty one sites my understanding is that in every case the deal of the air traffic controllers was like things the way they were a whole lot better than the proposed changes that correct this is change and having been a controller many years  ago i've gone through a number of technological changes and oftentimes i would resist those changes because i felt comfortable with the tools and the assets and the advice around me and our controllers are the same way and we've done a number of technological changes and what we often find is after we introduce the change safely and we work to resolve concerns we oftentimes find that in most cases we find continue to look for new technologies and new ways to do business so we do find that while we do understand resistance to the change we do want to address their concerns and feel that as we work through a successful demonstration and validation process which would include their involvement and feedback we will resolve those concerns and come up with a much superior service and we have today understand the solihull proposal would require at least a sixty percent reduction in the staffing of meteorology during the heaviest traffic hours understanding that there is continuing new track knowledge and we certainly want to overcome resistance to using new technology where it does actually improve weather forecasting  day we don't have significant weather affecting aviation covering the entire united states and so in our existing structure we have people who are monitoring areas where there is no significant weather and  consolidation plan is really to reduce the number of employees involved in this from eighty four to fifty we will have eight people and our plan here is actually put more eyes safety and i suppose it's also true that on most days firefighters had the easiest job in america mr mr pounder do you have a comment on that well clearly i d's are all very fair questions mr chairman i think the rubber is going to meet the road on the demonstration project i mean the key here is to demonstrate no degradation of service and you know not having that face to face on demand consultation is a concern we heard in the current course of our work also and we really won't know that until we have that demonstration in place and again i'd like to reiterate that demonstration is going to be very difficult because as we've heard here we still have performance measures to agree to in terms of what we're measuring and then once we get those in place then we have to baseline those that we have baseline performance to measure against it's tough to demonstrate no degradation of service if you did not have baseline performance metrics on time is expired dr brown for five minutes i'll make a statement as a pilot instrument rated pilot frequently i would be talking to a controller at a center and would talk to the controller about  whether i was facing and this is i would fly at night as well as in the daytime and just to make a statement to begin with i don't like this changes a pilot that you're proposing and i think it's going to not be a good change for pilots i think it's and the reason i say that is because frequently i've talked to center controllers and ask about weather and have talked to a national national weather service specialist in the center about what i was dealing with trying to consolidate that and working with the controller that was had handling my aircraft at the time being paladin command talking to control a talking to a weather service specialist trying to figure out the safest way for me and my aircraft and frequently passengers to traverse through a weather system i think is absolutely critical for pilots to have that ability so much change that i would suggest as a pilot to f a a is to let's go to twenty four seven fifty two weeks out of the year service with somebody proposing we have had conversations with a o p a o p a just like we had with the flight service consolidation and the many pilots like yourself oftentimes they do want that comfort of having face to face briefings or assets available on and what i would say is they used to work down in that area and i've been to all those facilities including athens airport the seat of the su forecasting is not the only products you know as a controller they have the cord or information or cord cord or information weather service offices as well as he integrated terminal weather services today let me interrupt you because my time is very limited understanding all that and i understand that we are still going to have towers as well as approaching departure control to help on that but there was a lot of territory in georgia florida south carolina north carolina tennessee alabama mississippi texas louisiana that i've been flying in this not covered by towers not covered by a terminal radar is covered by the center and i've talked to those weather specialist and i've it's not about having the comfort it's about have and safety and i think it's absolutely critical to have those specialist in the centers to be able to talk to those folks and talk to a controller with the weather specialist looking over his shoulder so i talk about them in same time and i think ya'll are just as the chairman said in his opening statement i really appreciate his opening statement i think alec is a solution for a problem this not broken i'd like to see you guys go to twenty four seven personally i think that's going to be the safest way you know says you worked in the atlanta contro elana center that we have a lot of thunderstorms daytime nighttime i need as a polyp to know where those are and how to circumnavigate them and talking to somebody in silver springs maryland with a controller been in hampton is not going to get it as far as i'm concerned i like technology i won't want to stay on this cutting edge of technology but i think ya'll are looking you have no metrics to measure what's going on today you have no possibility of determining with what's going on from from the national weather service is absolutely providing the services pilots desperately need in an operating as safe aircraft in the air traffic control system and i think until we have the metrics in place until we have all of the things that absolutely necessary to make sure that we continue in a in a safe matter operate an air traffic control system i think you're premature in just jumping out and trying to do what you're doing now my time's just about expired mr chairman you've been very gracious in allowing some variance on time dr hayes i've got a question for you very quickly because my time is up and the chairman's been very gracious style for me smash time can no provide weather specialist in the centers they give to use all the technology  that's available to help us as polyps to provide safe travel within the center structure can you all do that and do it in a cost effective matter  was all the technology mr brown are you referring to centers as currently configured today or in the proposed i'm talking about and centers are currently configured today in the answers unqualified yes o ur view is that this system works well today but it needs to work better there are challenges we face and as you look to the future of aviation united states the demands for air traffic management are only going to grow and whether as you noted being a significant impact on traffic is going to grow and it's important we need to bring to bear new science and technology we need to improve the consistency of our forecast these are part of what causes some of the ladies you experience i want to assure you  committed to enhancing the services that we provide to the f a a and i'm also committed to doing it in a way that ensured safety so i have responded there requirement because i believe that what they're asking is viable and i have a responsibility since i'm a service provider to test what i consider to be scientifically viable solutions have an objective independent third party evaluate and if there is any concern about degradation then there is no commitment on our part to move forward thank you all prescience a great evaluated evaluated by the national academies dr hayes mr day one of you our plan with the involvement in that category says that they will bring together the expertise and they will be involved in looking at the plan looking at the metrics we have them overseeing the execution of the dam val evaluating the results and again part of their evaluation if there's any concern with the baseline metrics that we have whether they're strong enough whether the  execution is strong enough to indicate that there is no degradation we expect them to tell us that in addition internally i have a responsibility to the american people that every step of the way i evaluate our internal processes and if i see something that they don't see i have a responsibility to say hold everything and so i think there is a dual aspect to this evaluation both extra long term well all the metrics that are proposed by the recent g a o strictly  be adopted and that i think we've we've got four of them in work and implementation today we're looking at forecast accuracy we're working with the f a a we hope to have that soon and i would say that if there are additional metrics again our intent here is not to cut any corners with regard to safety of flight in our services thank you mr pounder when f a a rejected the second and of us are puzzled for consolidation they stated that they believe the technology has moved to a point where face to face communication between forecasters an air controllers is is not needed given your experience looking at the technology acquisitions in use in federal agencies are there risks in this approach that relies on technology to fill in for direct human contact well clearly the on demand consultation you can put in place or our technologies to put in place you know with various communication mechanisms we could have that i will tell you though during the course of our review we actually visited four centers in three of the four preferred to move forward with a face to face on demand consultation so i still think that's the mode that most folks are comfortable with i think the technology when you want to continue to pursue that i think that what we're talking about here is consistent with where f is going with their longer term next gen initiatives where you do more remotely not just weather but other things associated with air traffic control so you want to continue to push that but again you want to make sure you need to listen to the users you want to make sure there's no degradation of service and i guess i just want to go back to dr hayes and mr de and again kind of piggybacking on what's already been asked i guess what is it that we are trying to fix through this consolidation exactly what is it we're trying to fix because it seems to be unanimous among meteorologists that this they're necessary part of this safety team so what is it that we're trying to fix seen as many times are very competent and committed meteorologists provide a regional view however that becomes murky as you look at a national airspace system and a common operational picture by which to make mission driven decisions and ensure safety and and successful mission so we believe that by moving to this new model we can resolve some months since i've been in the job where we have some challenges with consistency half a identified and impacts we weeks ago in the new york city area where our weather forecast office terminal airdrome forecast was inconsistent with the c c p product and so we're taking action now to address that and that will be part and that is part of our response is to focus on a consistent mission message message to air traffic controllers i mention in my opening and that can't be done in the current system that we have right now the consistency issue can't be fixed no it can it can't be with the existing so it can be our case it is there are challenges there that we would have that we wouldn't have with fewer locations obviously the more people in the message generation the more difficult it is to ensure consistency ok my time's expired that i've been stuck in my current plan is  to enter into the record a statement from the air traffic controllers from the weather union folks as well as a o p and that would be fun mister  as so you may know midway airport is in my district and o'hare is close air traffic safety is very important to me i've been following this proposed consolidation and with increasing concern a little over a month ago we had administrator babbitt in before the transportation infrastructure committee's aviation subcommittee and i was asking him questions that we have but focusing on here this morning unfortunately he had just gotten into that position and at that time he really didn't have much to tell me that he hadn't had a chance to review the latest version of the end of u s proposal the hoping that today with this very helpful  report we can get a clearer picture i have a lot of questions here let me try to focus in that and i'll have some questions for the record but it focused too if we have time  the center if for instance you are taking some most senior people out of the existing twenty one centers how can you fairly and actually evaluate the current system versus the new proposal and what will become of the meteorologists at the existing  different two different systems actually i think if it biases it at all it would bias it toward the me as it is today because that's where the aviation experience is today and so  to reduce or to eliminate that c b s you can offer them a job ideally at one of the two that we are going to that we have proposed and if we also have vacancies at nearby forecast offices and we would attempt to thousand and eight when the national weather service sent the f a a the latest consolidation proposal you accompanied the proposal the transmittal letter a letter that includes some language which concern me you wrote that quote the non remote option expanding improves w s u services at the twenty one current locations this option sustains the capability to provide face to face decision support which reduces risk when a rapidly changing weather has a potential for first order impact on aviation i think we can all agree that if the proposal increases the risk relative the current system it's not going to be acceptable there are two things i want understand first what did i mean by first order impact in aviation and second how can a new system with less local weather knowledge possibly reduce risk having thier jaffrey controllers spoken out in favor of keeping the forecasters colocated well i  the results show with an independent evaluation how much of an increase in risk are we going to allow well again the risk of communicating what we intend whether that risk translates into an impact on safety or not i don't again i don't think i can say ok i think i have more questions for for the record but i know that we don't have much much time here and you'll back thank you