what i was really hanging around for i was trying to feel some kind of a goodbye i mean i've left schools in places i didn't even know i was leaving them i hate that i don't care if it's a sad goodbye or a bad goodbye but when i leave a place i like to know i'm leaving it if you don't you feel even worse i think holden said a lot about goodbyes and the catcher in the rye high ability the evans well can make heart feel better and this show is about goodbyes because i'm going to be leaving belmont and leaving boston and i hope taking make are to miami i'm moving to miami in about three weeks and so this is one of our last shows and it seemed to make sense that we would have a show about goodbyes and in clinical terms we call it terminations so two of my favorite clinicians and guests on make art feel better daniels prensa and mary beth arena have agreed to come on one of our last show so this is very very special to have you here you all have been on i think you're tied you've each been on five shows and been on a lot of day and you were on the very first show yes i was were ripping up tissue paper you did several shows where we went very deep we did and i mean every time that i've come here i end up leaving with some sort of meaningful authentic experience so i will never forget that i will never forget my design that i got to do and the meditation and yes b j refers to that is our say hot show you and kayla came on and we demba lights and it was it really was great but if you weren't you weren't posts how do you would do you see why they were terminations what does it mean to you day and actually to like to use the word terminal you know and you know i think of it is as endings also and but in the thinking of terminations is everything has an ending i mean you know we've talked before about my buddhist thinking yes but you know i mean it's true to be thinking about that all things come to an end and i think in therapy one of the big things that we're thinking about is how to do that in a way that's planful because i think so often in people's lives and you know we all have worked and do work with kids and kids that have ha working with clients actually as soon as clients are ready to to end we can tend to hold on and not give the opportunity to say you know i think i've learned enough right now you know and you know i have to say i really appreciate being invited here to say goodbye to this experience because i think we have you know been on the show for five times and we've worked with you of the years and i think one of the one of the important parts of a good goodbye is ritual and honoring and being able to sort of you know say goodbye in a way that is you know that reflects the work that you've done  well i was so excited because we really have a parallel process i'm getting to do this with you you're here and we're also taping it which is magical to me you know be able to experience it and to to show that and i love your use of the word ritual because i think that is it's so washed in in a lot of ways of what it even if it's that you go out to eat with someone or you make art or you sing a song or some way that there's a farewell we have at the after school where i work therapeutic after school whenever a child is leaving whether they've done their piece of work or they're moving to another town or if a staff person is leaving we have a ritual goodbye  and the children who have been there long enough they anticipate that they know it's a way and a place and a time to be able to reflect and wish give well wishes and be able to sort of  you know there's a lot of ways people to say goodbye some people just can't do it so they they don't they just leave you they disappear and i said you know that we can do that or then some people get mad there's something left to get an argument because that keeps it from being bad you know no i got you know that person was a jerk and it's protective yeah so i never totally even come out and knowledge and say you're leaving me ok that it's your experienced as an abandonment and you have to you have to be aware of that even though you know you may be leaving for really positive reasons and change is part of life and that sort of what you try to kind of  and there is that feeling that i'm leaving too soon and that's what goes on you're right and in our work there's a responsibility i think to sort of the with the i've heard some instructors say that when your first session with a client you begin terminations have you ever heard that it is there because we're beginning this and somebody knows that it's going to end and be whatever that however the spirit moves us do you have any more to share on buddhism because you have such wisdom dan it's one thing i was thinking and as just think the advantages also and we talk some about that but it's interesting  when you're saying you're leaving and i would imagine your experience of experiencing this now with your clients there's this opportunity because it's like oh now we've got to get the work done you know the door knob kind of on the way out last couple minutes like oh i got to share all this stuff with you and you get a lot of meat there and there's like this finite amount of time and you know there's a lot that can be done in that again if it can be tolerated because there is also this like i want to try to reject you before you reject me i've had it come up now i'm in the next few weeks of going to lunches parties all these people saying i want to i want to get to see you and the same thing is happening and i'm wondering wow i should've gotten these people more  but now you know where they want to have a chance and i do too to tell them how much they meant to me and we don't take that all the time an opportunity so i'm i'm i mean joy i'm savoring that and trying to be again the term denial i'm not thinking as much about what it's going to feel like when i get in the car and pull out of boston i've been here eighteen years in the new england area so it's a long time i've been you know i've become a northerner sort of  loving way truly truly so you know the idea is that anything that we're feeling about you know that we're feeling about the last make heart feel better show  started off feeling you know my gosh this is really dangerous but it wasn't and how would this be received and it was received gloriously everything i ever do and really wonderful so  to think that i'm a little bilingual in the cause of this in order therapist for other things and i've learned so many other things i mean i learned how to do case management i never life kinds of deficit's they're not going to sit and do those now it's tough you know when you're if you don't have food shelter and water are you going to you know carry out anything else you know you're as you always talk about you're in here in the  danger sorry but i think everyone likes a little danger and it's also there's the mindfulness part if you are mindful with dangerous things normally you don't get very actions happen when you are not being mindful and that's both what we say is there anything the hardest things that you've had to leave in your life for a longer answers are places i've had different kinds you know we were talking a lot about terminations and clinical work but i've certainly had  you know relationships and in my life some which you know you and in a lot of different ways but i've had to say got goodbye to somebody who was dying  oh you know i've had to say goodbye to relationships that weren't working well anymore and so i've had experience with doing it well and poorly and poorly oh well they just they just brought her his daughter called me and i immediately made the plane reservation and went down there and and did a lot as you said ritual things i had talked to him i brought things and i thought ok i'm i'm getting a make over with his mother yeah it was just not you know and that's fine i was unable to at that time yeah right you have to be ok with you know how it goes but when i said goodbye to a dying friend afterwards i learned a lot about terminations that i've carried with me into you know personal and professional relationships trying to say everything you need to say because i felt so much more peace in the ending even though i was the one who survived because i felt like i i didn't avoid and i didn't try to disrupt and escape all those things that you've talked about you know the ways that we handle them because we're human we don't like to feel pain you know you know but pain it's really growth inspiring as well so sitting with that can really be rewarding in its own way and saying good bye while so i have courage you to stay in the game with your clients is probably going to be very intense you know it is and your friends and then there's also a lot of honesty too because i have had several teens who have when i said i was moving to miami and their response was are you moving for good which has a double meaning that i did i thought yeah i am moving for good you know i hope it's good you know it's going to be different and actually when i was in new england in kennebunk and i was substitute teaching while i was in graduate school and the standard saying they're from high school kids when we you know they find out that i was from miami in the middle of winter they say and what are you doing here i don't know i actually found myself on the way  and i was stuck in all this traffic i thought to myself what really will experience the traffic that we experienced in miami is a big city i'm sure that it's big the roads are flat and straight and they don't think they don't tend to get broken by ice and snow during the winter a whole different experience you explain it to me and there's something that it can't be fixed or something there's a reason they can't keep the roads from cracking and you tell me i just know we've worked together for a while and even your clinical skills and you know i feel that art is now a part of me i mean it always was a part of me right because i maybe part of our connection is because my mother was a high school teacher and i used to spin around and throw a wheel you know when i was a look at it but yeah i mean even today we have a team today and the team that used to be part of it and the thought process beforehand with what would really do just routing of an ice breaker something that would connect people together and to be using art to do stuff so you know i had my go to actually stood up and looked at the world the art supplies and i just sort of stared for a little while and you know bunch of ideas come in and think you know so good and even and i'm even though i had a like a tough client yesterday a lot went on with and i was like oh who can i we've had a lot of transition who do i brave that was and the third floor room you you would cards to see you know some really you know conservative their vests and some restricted their business and some goofy therapist to chair that paper and that room filled up with color and and texture and playfulness and it loosened the whole room i mean it loosened everybody up into having an expressive experience and i will never forget that so this is sort of my remembering of that kind of that color and that movement that was going on in that room and just in the end i just i saw this which was you know what i was going for it just because i can't let go of that image i've been thinking about that image for the last couple of weeks since you told me that you were leaving thank you had energy you know i will hold that energy with me as a transitional object that's something else we talk about as therapists using glitter one of the great things is becomes a transitional object the thing never actually get it off thank you so yes you're going to i think i will shine with your presence cavernosa opening to with a springboard i guess to do it just as i'm thinking now and it says enter and also you'll see is that it says enter on the other side as well as pretty deep and worried about this any time you make a change in mood and it's very scary i don't know i'm going to a place i sort of know but i don't know exactly what's going to happen so i am very frightened but it's nice to think of the springboard know is the set this time is for our guests and day and is very partial to giraffes so you have a giraffe and mary get your wonderful musician and guitar player and i i think i will think of you both every time you know drafts come up an awful lot dan they really do so know that every time there's a draft i'll think about you for other things and maybe have to for your music and just your grace so much that you shared i just went really free form so i'm not even going to try to it's probably all of my stuff being worried about leaving so i'm not even going to start analyzing it yet because i know there are three rocks here and one of them is a new england rock so that's really important to me in fact i think all these are