well help lower re body and a welcome to another dish enough time up for sports talk the award winning time up for sports talk here at the belmont media center where closing in on twenty five years we continually belmont's first and only all sports talk show i wednesday october the seventeenth two thousand eighteen we're going to be here live for the next sixty minutes and do not adjust your clocks we are audible morally tonight because the red sox and the houston astros are going to play game four of the l c s if you're watching us on october seventeenth then you know we are the unofficial pre game for a l c s game for if you're watching us on any of the other broadcasts that i guess none of this makes any sense but we are here for the next six minutes taking your phone calls the phone number six one seven four eight four two four four three if you happen to be flipping through the channels waiting for the red sox and astros to start game four yet you come across as we are live tonight before the game so you can call us and we're going to be talking a lot of baseball of the next sixty minutes certainly and abundance of riches there's this plenty there's so much to talk about this is one of those months where i just feel we should either be doing a show every week there i wish we were either doing a show every week or are doing maybe a three hour show because there's just a lot going on but it's up don't forget social media we do have a time for sports use that hash tag we will all check it periodically through the hour i usually do we don't get off haven't had anyone this do anything with the hash tag yet but other than ignore it anyway but it's there and we have a facebook page to search time out for sports talk so this is like i said it's an abundance of riches always glad to have howie mccloughan in the co pilot's chair going to favorite time of year all four teams appoint him you know can't beat it and we are so spoiled how i mean i just i can't get over the fact that you know this seems to happen every almost every october where you've got a couple of great games going head to head or it's one game after the other sunday night you had speech or it's red sox going to head to head last night you had red sox celtics back to back i mean it was spoiled we was a long time  weren't spoiled you know we didn't make the playoffs a lot we had a losing team so you know they did the generation right now they don't know what they think this is normal you know they don't know what it was like before yeah and went on break after a hot break after hot right when it ends they're going to be in for a world of hurt will speaking of that younger generation we did have a colleague making his second appearance here on the show i'm glad we didn't scare you off and we're happy to have you back again here thanks for having me back happy to be here you're very right i'm very spoiled i don't know what losers like in this town except for maybe like the early celtics bruins but for me it's been maybe losing a championship game yeah yeah yeah losing in the finals you know bruins two thousand all the various games around all the fall sports teams are doing very well by the way and there we go there's there's the marauder over my shoulder yes it's been a great fall all the fall sports teams are going to make their respective tournaments i believe right now boys soccer in high school we were nowhere near any sort of playoffs well the team is up three and three this year three three and they've got their spring of the season finale this friday at harrah's field against the arlington spy ponder so i still can't get used to them being in the middle sex league but it geographically speaking it makes sense they are neighboring towns just like belmont in watertown on thanksgiving day so and it's a good rivalry between the two schools they both play into vision three north as far as the m i a where they come up with the rankings and so a win for the marauders will clinch them a playoff berth and the playoffs begin on october twenty sixth and they will play three weeks worth of playoff rounds and if you lose you get bumped into the you know  the non playoff bracket but great year of the start of the broader started off the season i think we've mentioned this last time but they upsets milton notes and right now five n one and because of that win against the militants team that has lost worried about there's going to break up a lot of rivalries thanks to games and everything yeah thankfully it doesn't in this case i mean we'll certainly we can you know we'll probably talk about this more next month as well but no other the belmont watertown thanksgiving to give in fact all the water all the rivalry stay in place but i know for some of the teams that have like super bowl visions dancing in their heads a lot of times it affects the team they put on the field on thanksgiving because they're trying to they're playing rounds of playoffs around the thanksgiving day game i know i've heard that schools in the past well you don't almost put their g b team out season and he's out there shouldn't other games too so it should be should be fun anyway so good luck to all those schools that all the teams i mean as they get ready for their their turn i got to say if dave monaghan was around his say that that marotta minute was where longer than it's nascar and it throw up the picture here let's see we're talking playoffs we're talking there it is red sox and astros game them are four of the l c s i mean i knew you know they put the postseason schedule out when i'm you know booking these dates and i knew that tonight would be game for the l c s i really wasn't totally sure confident at the time when i booked the show that the red sox might be playing tonight but lo and behold here we are and it's been it's been great so far in fact let's go right back to the  the pictures here and last night or yesterday late yesterday afternoon jackie bradley jr i love this photo because it shows the homerun and you get to see the reaction of the houston picture of a bird it was soon former blue jay closer trying to you know do the same in houston and failing jack and bradley just breaking that game open with the with the huge ship last night to be many fake things on the wall like that in a family fake oh  shot up so i was going to switch to jack there is you know yeah there's a and by the way all three of those guys who scored ahead of them on the grand slam none of them started the game last night so just that it's been it's been crazy the players you would expect so far in these three games well i mean you know we can talk about the whole the postseason as a whole i mean you know beating the yankees and then this series i mean the red sox so far they're five and two in the playoffs and when i was last on the road that's it i mean that's grace right that's why there is such great fighting every way i was i was getting a little i was again a little worried there but hey they pulled it out they pulled it out yesterday and we'll see the employer thing i don't know what is with kimbrel i can't lie i was even going and i was slightly worried i was like this guy just gives me kind of those that feeling where you're not you want to be confident in them because he's got the stuff but then you know you can kind of get what he did though and i get wild when you're not really sure what he's going to give you i feel like those big moments where he gets a little jacked up and he starts throwing thrown the sliders away out picture for themself from the series and it's i think that was right after he got the last out again for that yankees series to clinch it is kind of that look of relief on his face or maybe astonishment you hide in that be it yeah i don't know that's a good question when they've come in relief right they haven't given up any runs either so yeah i mean it's incredible it's amazing they'll take those guys and bring them out of the bullpen so that they can pitch one inning couple of bad as a whatever you know that just shows everyone's mentality we don't win today tomorrow doesn't matter because i can i think you see how how amped they are and how amped report sello is to get out there and do it because i'm thinking you know obviously we're not in their shoes but if i'm so used to being a starter all these years and now to come in in the playoffs after you know different warm up different routine going in that a thing thank you stadium and and hold them there you know that's obviously a different mindset than coming out zero zero top of the first then you know i think you see how bad these guys want it what they want to do for the team you know david price of  the day you know you know the narrative but it's not about me it's about the team you know that type of stuff i think i think everyone's pretty committed everybody wants to and you can you can see that you know i think i think crisis taken slow steps they finally won a game it was almost cruel they had to now have thing you have a pitchers called openers who are relievers who pitched like the first couple of innings they're going to have to probably do something to consider modifying the rules as far as who qualifies for a witness because you know most of the starters aren't even going five innings anymore you know trying to find some pictures of  david price this postseason if we can go to them these are the only two i could find this was from the l d s that was after aaron judge hit one that i think is just landed maybe a few minutes ago and then he this is him from again to the game you were talking about how we i think that was well yeah i guess i have reason to be well is he said though that used he's taken he's making progress because this was that game too even though he didn't get the win the red sox won the game that's the first time he has started a playoff game and his team has won the game so he can get  to pitch it sounds like he may have to pitch game five now right because we got news today we were talking about the fact that it looks like chris sale is not going to be able to pitch they are holding him back he's probably going to start game six at this point they're  it's funny because you know going in all the centers aren't going to win one you know get back home field advantage this one right we won the one no problem but now you're going to worry because sales are going to be around you don't know if he's going to pitch game five you don't know who's going to pitch game six i mean i don't know if i'm by in the stomach thing i mean the other night is velocity was low again he's ninety ninety one is fast balls is that is it is am a shoulder and they just say in this that so many pitches the other teams out say like look at the off on this guy because he hasn't got his best stuff i don't know confused i mean well obviously we'll see what happens tonight but it's kind of the mindset how hard you go to obviously it's the playoffs you go hard when you want every game but how do you go tonight knowing you get that three to one cushion where maybe you can give them a little more time to rest of it is a shoulder you could throw out i know as you were saying earlier eduardo rodriguez maybe tomorrow or somebody else can win a spot start go kind of a bullpen game tomorrow if you are able to win tonight or tomorrow b c you'd like to win but you're not facing an elimination game without chris sale something give him a little time to recuperate from whatever is ailing him whether it's stomach or shoulder or whatever the case yeah no i mean you know this is going to be the question mark i guess going forward in this series but you know i guess what it comes down to is that alex is you know going to be able to find a way to patch things together it just feels like right now they're kind of working on a game to game basis that was sort of the case in the in the yankees series as well you know certainly one of the people that's helped about it will get him on screen because he certainly deserves some some love here are the game three winner nathan of all the year he is pitching in the last night i mean right now he's probably the closest thing the red sox have to a bona fide aids first of all he pitched six innings i think out of all the starters so far in the red sox first seven playoff games he's gone deeper than any other starter and he only started to go six and one zero one zero one of two last night on the gun that unbelievable you know they're going to find a way to resign this guy i was going to say he's been males this offseason this postseason i think people kind of look at them brusque and criticize him for not getting the relief help but like look at the guys he has got he went o the pierce you know considers tailed off a little bit but he went on and on him so these additions they has made have been a big help to getting to where you are now and i think you know the bullpen certainly stepped up a little bit but i feel like people really aren't given him that much credit for stretches i mean he's like five five six weeks trenches about to eight you know i mean he gets all the balls off the dirt in many scoops everything up i mean i mean if it's not to him they don't win the yankee series you know no far as the ability to do that and i hate you now caught you know much confidence it must give your other infielders to be able you know to know they can throw the ball anywhere remotely close to the bag and you've got a first baseman is want to stretch out i mean you know you think about that play of the end of the  certainly yeah i mean he's been he's been great back to of all the really quick what i was going to mention about him is you know i think the last few weeks of the season what we all talked about at least i was evolved for the eighth inning that's going to solve the eighth inning problem because no one  stepped up to be able pitch while the eighth inning and we thought it might be a fault like maybe the bullpen but he's been so valuable as a starter you have see a great numbers against the yankees this year which is why i started in that series but then he pitched so well as a starter there i mean you have to you have to i mean for sure overpriced based on what he's given i'd say over par selo at this point they're just based on what he's given us you know he had kind of that little stretch after he joined us where he kind of you know lost a little bit but yeah he's come back strong based on would probably be an m v p candidate if it wasn't for for bookie bets and g d martinez but he's had been their best off as a performer all year and you know bridge was able to retire him i mean who knows as the as the playoffs keep progressing maybe someone cincinnati and it's almost like that that allowed him to kind of maybe he found something there maybe needed to find his inner self get mad or whatever but it's worked because since then he's pitched really well and we have the guy and wait for the breakout as much stepping up during the series but it's his turn now you know so i'm waiting for his break up maybe tonight you know maybe maybe it'll be against the next game we still can't pitch and he takes all the but it's time for him after everything he did this year it's time for him to break out in the playoffs but i just really quick he was the one who actually started hitting for the red sox this postseason the that three run homer the bottom of the first in the game one against the yankees but you're right it's only  hole coming into the game yesterday divers come into the game yesterday only on coming into the game yesterday and getting that going but i think you know martinez is so valuable because i think all year he's taken kind of that pressure off a movie at the top and you know he's provided that second big gun in the lineup and i think if you can get him going and if you can get the movie you know continue in what he's doing now watch out exactly yeah with boogie it's you know  he's certainly started pick it up in this series now four for thirteen three o eight average in the l c s right i mean it was like martina sort of you know had a few big hits in the yankee series and everyone's asking where this movie going to get going now it feels like movies getting going and now martinez they have to book if they both got going at the same time out it's kind of frightening to think what this office could do and and certainly you know that kind of often could take a whole lot of pressure off the pitching staff because you know you know it's a crazy thing to is there catch up to the first two games he's very very light hitting catcher but he's in there strictly to kind of slow down the red sox run game and didn't do too much in the past balls the other night though i know you didn't but you know is i said we talk about all the different keys to the red sox i think one of the biggies has got to be it's got to be this guy core again we keep talking about what he's done but you know again he was also the bench coast bench coach for the world year and there were rumors last year i guess that the asters were stealing signals the dodgers i guess brought it up during the world series last year and then you know it's you know tell me a team that's not trying to steal signals i mean really i mean that may have been a little bit farfetched having like every team in baseball is trying to you know steal signs some way maybe they're not as kind of blatant as the astros were sent in the guy down to the media pit or wherever he was going in the dugout yeah you know that's just that's the dumb to but they're going up by him at the last second as one basket has jumped up and you know the broadcasters are saying you know because he jumps up earlier even a slight than a whistle from the guy on the on deck circle you know you're trying to get every advantage you can get you want to win the game red sox were informed about potential signal stealing from the astros by the cleveland indians who the astros a limited in the l d s and i'm kind of familiar as is the sum of football ring to it well that's what i'm saying one team is telling some of the teen watch off the page at football here's my question to you guys do you really think it was all that or is it the fact that cora was on the astros last year astros of you had a reputation they've been rumored to be doing this for years or at least the last few years corelli knows about it i mean do you think it was cora who was actually the you know deep throat did kind of leak the information out or whatever that you know watch this guy or i mean he was supposedly you know this i guess the guys he was mccormick or something who  was the president of the team he works for the president well and then he did a scrub legacy scrubbed all the social media so now there's no connection between him working for the houston astros and yeah like that was all done which also seems awfully suspicious if he's totally he would have done it before this broke and i would he would have got to the point where he said something so that they caught the guy and made a big deal of it i think if he saw him he just want to go over right away and say look stop it no more you know i know the end of that series with the same guy showed up at fenway that's where this whole yeah it's where it started yes it was you know right off the bat then that you know i just don't think cora was you know i don't think or a lot of i'd agree with you i think if he knew was going he might have known from previous years maybe that's why maybe he mentioned it to someone else and that's why they nailed him so fast or they did hear from cleveland they're on the lookout for it but i agree i don't record doesn't strike me as the kind manager of the red sox why would you even try to do it yeah you know late that plague zach you know if he knows you do this why would you do with that plate you don't try to do it a different way i think that if you're going to do it yeah there you go you know we keep talking about cora but you really does have the ideal temperament you know for this team oddly enough this picture probably doesn't show it very well because this was a good one when he got tossed actually got thrown out of his first playoff game but yeah but you know what he really does like you mention he doesn't throw anyone under the bus he's very upfront you know his communication skills are off the charts he deals with the media perfectly his demeanor even you know after everyone you know in boston sports media said the sky was falling after the red sox last game the yankees heading to new york this is it the season's over they're going to lose the next two it's done and then said they go to yet still they win the next to a place which is you know hard to win that it is special in the postseason houston's ten and one i guess in the postseason before the last couple see you know years before last night's loss so yeah i mean all of a sudden you know he just he's got to you know you know all the decisions he's been making this postseason from you know eighth inning reliever does you or you know whoever it's to be you know everything's coming up roses for him right you know maybe he played here you know so yeah knows what goes on he knows how rabid the fan bases he knows what the media is like i mean he didn't come in like some wide eyed kid that's never done this before out a playoff game but i'm really chilled out early on the other hand you know you love the emotion of these guys guys back but you want him making these decisions the rest of the game and you know you can argue balls and strikes even i think pretty clearly you know to show them he was there to be the if bought them no matter what even if it cost him get suspended and find well you know all of the decisions that cora has to make you know that we've talked about they've all turned golden he you know he does have some decisions to make and certainly look at around the infield he's got a couple platoon situations and you know started third base there's a shot you got raphael devers an edwardian yes i happen to like both these guys i mean they both give you something i mean certainly there's just all the rob side of devers a twenty one years old the fact you get any time he could turn out a pitch and send it for others fifty feet and with a daughter noon yes he just approve e k g veteran who just you know he knows how to deal with these situations former yankee to say you know he's got that kind of you know pedigree i mean how do you think chorus of dealt with this i mean if you were managing during this postseason would you be playing one over the other to kind of as a straight platoon at the way the way baseball is today it has to be a platoon because everything's all about analytics a statistic so they're always playing that card no it's not the my gut says this he's hot it's all about who's pitch you know what you know what the stadium there is it's just way past anything that used to be like that that's why the old time managers are just no good anymore because they all did it off instinct you know in feeling but they don't like  shifts drive be crazy i hate nothing more this you guys between second and third you know to me it's almost like cheating the second baseman should be playing the position of second base which of the plane but they don't you know the thing that you know this year the reds like they  you know this is interesting because the situation at second base just like a lot of third base you have one lefty one righty and essentially all four of these guys really don't play very good defensively kinsler was kind of brought here for defense and even he struggled here in the playoffs and  doesn't appear to be hitting which was i think part of the reason there were rumors that might and why the angels were so willing to let him go so you know why we do so you're right i mean you know how you just said it brock we haven't seen much of brock old i'm not sure why we're seeing so much of  honestly maybe for defensive purposes rather see brock hole at third base the noon is or devers because some of the some a pleasant and find some of the plays the it's just been like hold your breath of the balls hit over there i mean on the i think it was the bregman double last night when up scoring up to even hobbled from first base he gets all the way around so some of these do you now anytime now it's at the third base with either of them out there you like to think that they can make the play but at the same time like to know what's what's go happen here i have a forty year flashback to butcher shops of having to rearrange the bone chips at his elbow before you could make up for over to first base but he made it i know he was at that crazy thing reading run he'd run in charge leave his feet off the ground in the like throw it all in one motion i seem to always remember that with him and throwing to the stretched out george scott over at first base much like steve poole but now yeah you want to talk about a stretch of enough pierce has nothing on the way boomer could do it back in the day you watch him actually i think he was literally doing the splits i remember there were times he'd see him in these his front foot would be sticking up in the areas he was as he was doing the ladies he came up with a third baseman too well that's right the third baseman you know you really you're so much like pierce again that it's natural position but turned himself into a pretty darn good one again six one seven forty four two four four three the number if you want to call us live we're on before game four you know it's two one red sox the magic thing with joe buck and you can say what you want to bottom and i have my criticisms about of too sometimes of those he thinks it's about him but he understands the moment these are october games there's trauma and when you hear joe buck calling a game you can at least hear that drama in his voice and training game they have all the excitement of like you know it's like a split squad affair i don't i don't understand this like no drama i keep hearing a repeat the same facts over and over again it's like they have one little three by five don't card and they keep reading off it and they just keep repeating them in really hadn't watched either team much all year because you just don't get you don't get it back when you don't get any stories you know that i did that just before the game i'm more exciting than the guys call the game we sheffield and rollins in pedro or on the fox  but i think the same lad i was i'm watching the game last night and i wasn't watching when brad i was there was on the t v but i was focused on something else when bradley hit the grand slam and you never would have known like typically like some like that not you but he's on the other network now so he's not involved with any about anymore but yes back in the day no question i still you know you know i was i was still i was always a big mcdonough family used to do the red sox games he was you know what i still miss him and now he's like two announcers removed great careers of dodgers announcer to when he worked for n b c i mean granted although in eighty six he wanted the mets to win and that was very apparent and i think you just read it for the national league it isn't like those they'll teams but you know but it still has not talked about eighty six so yeah yeah rest of it i mean can you know again six wins away now i mean is it i mean i know they have the best record in everything and this is probably you know they're supposed to be the favorites but you know what you got what you guys think of the rest of the way i mean can they can they get past euston and if so are they going to meet any kind of challenge from the from the national league you know d n a you asked me before the game for going to talk some n l we got one picture we can throw up really quick here and this will be up but all we talk about with the n l they're currently playing their game five right now series is tied to by the way that's travis shot the play he had a game when you might remember that name why can't we get players like that think you know we're going to talk about how bad we have to worry about third base and you know is this guy or it away and he's playing second base right now he was a first baseman with the red sox by without little logo in the upper right hand corner it's on the helmet which is kind of why i put the logo in the shot here but the brewers now are wearing kind of their new that jersey they're wearing still it's kind of  new brewer logo but the helmets the love the little to me which still goes down as one of the greatest all time sports logos for its simplicity and the fact that the catcher's mitt spells out and be exactly i mean it's brilliant in its simplicity now we talk should go back to if they were talking about the milwaukee brewers that were in the american league and were moved to the national league in then they take the houston astros who are in the national league and move into the american  league i'm glad i'm glad you brought that up i was going to let you help if you were going to bring that on of so maybe maybe they should be in the world series you know the next it would be the first time i think you'd have a world series with two teams that were in former leagues switching over and in fact both of those teams appeared in their former leagues in the world series brewers in eighty two against the cardinals and the astros in zero five against the white sox so and then of course the astros went as an american league team last year so now it's just the brewers who have to get back as an n l team in the league both the a both appeared in the world series with different you know different leagues but it's kind of weird although that's the thing we can both you and i how we can remember when the brewers were eight and  imagine it was very emotional for him to be able that's a pitch last night in houston in a big playoff game in pitch well too i mean that's you know and you could tell how empty up he was because he started the game throwing one hundred miles an hour i mean that that's if you the the brewers kind of have that feel of like this team that probably maybe wasn't expected to be here at the beginning of the season but then he comes in and m v p caliber season from him they kind of have that feel like kind of this almost the done like i want to say two thousand and thirteen red sox kind of but kind of this theme of you know kind of put together with kind of these you know not a ton of household name star players whereas the dodgers you got  ballenger charo encourage those guys so but either way you got to think about l a too david price pitching in warm weather first cold weather that factor helps them out but get some fortnight fingers going on they look like they could be i mean they're it's you know they it's you know you talk about the kind of through the teams that you mentioned yellowish to what if someone told me that yellow should be the former marlins outfielder would still be playing right now and not cheap carl stanton i know you just you know that's what happens when you're young and mature and you just do things that you know you shouldn't have done in libya think about us or you know maybe i was in the smartest thing in the world but you know in the next few years they're going to be orioles so would he be the right guy to bring into the yankees i mean as a red sox fan you might say yeah you have signed him up pay a big money because he might you know he might be more disruptive than he is productive forget about me  bowden switched and they were managers of the other team opposite teams are the yankees playing right now in the red sox or at home because i would argue alex cora you know for both of them being rookie managers outscore seems to just have so much more experience and poise and knowing how to be a manager and he talked about it when he played at the red sox so that's of the imagery of the future back in zero three when they were and was beating the red sox the l c s nobody would ever say oh yeah there's a future manager right and when he's in the broadcast most of the s p n last year i don't think anybody would say hey there's a future manager right there i mean i'm just i'm just wondering how we your point about the yankees being a threat for years to come as far as the personnel goes i would agree but i just don't know if blue is the right fit he may actually end up i hate crazy to think that he may hold them back some out i mean maybe he won't get the best out of those guys just because i'm not sure what kind of manager he is yeah i think of corey's with the yankees that they'd be with we are right now i think i mean obviously i think he'd be an edge over boone at the end of the day it's still the players going out and playing and i was a cute ng i think the red sox roster you know the yankees have honestly top the bottom a loaded roster but i think the red sox won all they performed and you know if they had boone on their team would they have performed that potential who knows but i think i think it would have been it would have been different but i can't say for sure if the iraqis would have been where we are now just because of korea or at the end of the day maybe he would have gotten them to perform a little better who knows those two lineups going up against each other like that if they get elevated low in the red sox from now but who knows bad guy from two thousand and eleven yeah who is actually one of the big stars of the two thousand and thirteen world series a matter of fact ok we got we don't have a lot of time what so we're all in agreement sox go all the way is that what we're doing yes ok i actually did predict used in seven in the series i still think there's a lot left to be played we'll see how see how the rest of it gets played out but hopefully the sox can find a way to to hang on here really quick because we're winding up running out of time oh did we get some other teams of patriot minute and win over the chiefs this past week but i see which win because it really keeps their hopes for a chance of getting back to the super bowl alive and i say that because if they lost the chiefs they'd be three games behind of last ahead tiebreaker and the road to the super bowl would have gone through arrowhead in the a f c and now patriots still might have a chance of hosting another a f c championship game a long ways to go but let's say it remember who the coach  second half you know that well first of all what quarterbacks under the age of twenty five a chill lead all time are like a win twenty three and he almost turned that around that but always it would have been for a young quarterback like that first year stockton to be down of the pages at half time and just give up you know it but then to get into a shootout with them and begin to shoot out with the but one of the best quarterbacks ever play the game and missed by that much you know his first that's probably hayward sighting ladies and gentlemen they were played twenty five minutes last night and he left the game with both of us legs and to act i am excited first of all i'm excited to coordinate what actually plays for the celtics i needed to be convinced because everyone told me did last year but i didn't believe it now look at this he started the game he finished the k he didn't break any legs i think there's a chance here this kid could be good you know i'd be good for six so that's you know i think it's great to get the band back together i mean to get i mean we're crazy to think they could win seven i mean if everything comes together they could win seventy games there how about the way they went at embiid last night i mean the two kids i mean one stop in it over said the able to pop it over move get out of hang on there the finals go through golden state but i think barring injuries they're expected to when they use that i think anything again barring injuries anything less than making the finals i think for a lot of people around here is a disappointment for this team based on the rest of the eastern conference but i love the same they're young they they're young but they have that veteran leadership with kyrie who's twenty five twenty six hour horford gordon hayward but then you know you got j