subcommittee will come to order we will do opening statements from the chair and the ranking member then get right to our great panels todays hearing continues this committees efforts to expose cumbersome regulations that are stifling private sector job creation and  full economic recovery for more than two years the administration has told the american people that one dollar trillion of government spending was needed to put people back to work the signature effort of the american recovery and reinvestment act was supposed to keep unemployment below eight percent but obviously it is not there two years perhaps most telling are the statistics from the construction sector which is of course our focus today this important part of our economy encompasses excavators pavers plumbers bricklayers roofers and a host of other contractors and subcontractors on both residential and commercial projects it includes architects engineers surveyors and skilled craftsmen of every sort who design and construct americas infrastructure for these millions of americans the unemployment rate is currently twenty one point eight percent nearly two and a half times the total u s unemployment rate no other sect been hit harder by the economic downturn and no other sector was supposed to benefit more from the so called stimulus last december when chairman issa requested direct feedback from job creators across the entire economy many employers in the construction industry were candid with the committee about the federal rules that keep them from growing their businesses hiring new workers and competing in a fair and open market among the many responses the committee received two specific areas stand out first every day in the united states job creators in the construction industry are faced with the reality of project labor agreements these agreements tip the scale of an open bid process in favor of organized labor and shut out non union shops many of which are minority owned and women owned small businesses in fact the vast majority of u s construction workforce nearly eighty seven percent is non unionized moreover the cost of business increases dramatically because of plas several recent studies have found that these agreements add as much as eighteen percent to the cost of construction it was not surprising that when the president issued an executive order barely two weeks into his administration encouraging a preference for plas in government contracts when you calculate the total amount of dollars in stimulus sending that is going to construction projects and tack on eighteen percent for the cost of plas the extra cash that went into the pockets of these organizations is just not what the taxpayers want second the committee has heard from job creators that proposed workplace rules by the occupational safety and health administration threaten to impede economic growth in the construction industry fortunately and i want to compliment osha they withdrew the proposed rule regarding occupational noise and work related physical disorders after input from people who would have been most burdened by these rules meanwhile other rules like oshas injury and illness prevention program indicate that the administration has yet to comprehend how new layers of regulation can slow and even stop a full scale revitalization of our nations construction industry make no it workplace safety is a priority concern america has built the most successful robust and profitable market economy in the world and we have done so with an unapologetic commitment to worker safety safety and success are not mutually exclusive in the united states but job creators are concerned about the trend at the federal regulatory agencies that seem to be moving away from compliance assistance models toward an enforcement and penalization model this is critical as we move forward effective regulation does not require a threatening adversarial relationship between the government and the industries that it monitors this hearing will continue the important dialogue between private sector job creators congress and the administration about the steps necessary to foster economic recovery that puts america back to work the testimony we hear today from the front line of a major sector of our domestic work force will help us toward that goal projects that could have put people back to work and the administration wasnt particularly sympathetic to his point of view so i think we have to remember that only a quarter of the money that was spent rather a fraction of the money that went for the recovery act went actually for infrastructure and the kind of jobs that we are talking about here as far as plas where i come from they equate to higher safety standards higher craftsmanship reliability you dont want public projects built by fly by night contractors who arent into craftsmanship and that like other meetings we have todays discussion doesnt focus simply on the cost of regulation of industry because in order to have a truly productive conversation about regulations that yield real results costs have to be weighed against benefits when we hear industrys concern about pla lets not ignore the evidence that shows plas not only facilitate a timely and efficient construction project but they can also reinvigorate a community by employing local craftsmen educating young apprentices and paying competitive wages the arguments against plas that i have been hearing that plas are exclusionary and costly are not convincing so i am looking forward to addressing these concerns with the witnesses i think it is very timely that we are talking about osha as well because we are going to mark the th anniversary next week of the triangle shirtwaist factory fire that was the workplace disaster that took the lives of one hundred and forty six workers because the factory failed to provide workers idea about plas project labor agreements it actually brings together people who management and labor so you can actually have a successful project  i think that is a model that we ought to be supporting when we look at those who want to attack it because they are concerned about higher wages it is interesting but i bet you more often than not that never reflected in a lower cost of the project what they really end up arguing about is trying to get a bigger share of their profits for the corporation and not for the workers so thank you mister chairman mister jordan i thank the ranking member and without stimulus was way too much of spending everywhere and not enough focused spending on infrastructure i would agree i was against it and was against it for a variety of reasons but i would agree with the gentleman that certainly if you were going to spend that money it would have been better spent had it been put more into infrastructure th ennis good afternoon chairman jordan members of the subcommittee on behalf of the national federation of independent business i would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak with you today regarding the impact that project labor agreements have on small businesses emphasis on historic renovations and public education facilities we employ over one hundred and twenty individuals many of which have been in our employ for years we strive to foster a loyal work force by providing a safe fair and enjoyable workplace while maintaining the highest possible quality and craftsmanship on our projects to exceed the expectations of our customers the majority of the work we obtain is through the bid process most of these solicitations are awarded to the lowest bidder with varying levels of pre qualifications andor technical proposals requiring previous work experience in the past these solicitations which are funded by public dollars have been free from project labor agreements and therefore open to bidders who meet the technical requirements however recent federal policies have changed this practice making it more and more difficult for small businesses to fairly compete for these contracts two thousand and ten membership fell from fourteen point five to thirteen one percent of the u s construction work force consider the fact that the construction industry currently has an unemployment rate of over twenty percent with one fifth of the workers in the construction industry unemployed how can congress acknowledge that plas and other regulations only serve as an impediment to job creation in august two thousand and ten ennis electric made offers to general contractors for three general service had more experience than our competition did in performing these particular jobs bidding on these types of jobs is a very intensive process for small business and it can take hundreds of man hours just to prepare an estimate  it later came to our attention that all three of these projects were awarded on the basis that they adhered to project labor agreements so despite being fully qualified to do the work ennis electric was not selected for the subcontract electrical work because of a project labor as a result we have been forced to lay off approximately fifteen percent of our work force unless we can find other opportunities we could end up laying off over fifty percent of our work force the decision to require discriminatory project labor agreements on these three sub contracts could not have come at a more unfavorable time for ennis electric and our employees not to mention the american taxpayers who have to pay for the increased costs associated with these plas thank you for the opportunity to testify chairman distinguished members of the committee my name is linda figg i am very pleased to be here to represent the members of the construction industry round table and to participate in this hearing on the critically important effort to identify the negative impact excessive regulations may have on job growth in our industry the round table is composed of slightly over one hundred ceos from the leading architectural engineering and construction firms across the united states together these firms deliver on billions of dollars of public and private sector infrastructure projects that enhance the quality of life for all americans while directly employing nearly half a million americans easily double that w considering indirect jobs as such as have extensive experience and first hand knowledge of the challenges and complexities facing the design and construction industry when it comes to navigating the vast regulatory complex that has  arisen with respect to our clients projects let me state on the onset that cirt and its members are not opposed to regulations what we oppose is the inefficiency redundancy and overlapping jurisdictional mazes that have epitomize excessive regulations americas can do spirit know how and innovation still exist it is just hard to find sometimes under the extensive laws regulations and rules that the private sector faces while trying to create jobs that spur economic growth and expansion the uncertainty and unintended consequences of what seems like a never ending expansion of governments reach really damages the entrepreneurial spirit and desire to take risks which can help jump start a robust economy when government gives private businesses more freedom not less remarkable achievements can be accomplished to enhance prosperity for americans in public works infrastructure projects the federal government spends taxpayers money to put people to work create economic growth improve americas global competitiveness and enhance the quality of life in communities but oftentimes these projects are subject to time consuming and often and injuring many more while rescue efforts proceeded the minnesota department of transportation immediately began a fast track process of building a new bridge three days after the collapse a request for qualifications was issued for design buil teams interested in a replacement contract with five teams short listed four days later technical and price proposals were received on september th this is just over a month from the time of the collapse and evaluated on a best value basis by twenty seven evaluators from five agencies considering both quality and overall price the design build contract was awarded on october the th of two thousand and seven just a little over two months after the accident to allow construction to commence so quickly the minnesota department of transportation developed strong relationships with permitting agencies with good will and a sense of common mission the minnesota department of transportation and the agencies agreed to make and keep reasonable commitments decisions that normally take months and years had to be made in hours and days through this team effort a project memorandum was issued covering the environmental management issues and permitting the two hundred and thirty four  million construction project to move forward construction of the new ten lane interstate bridge proceeded at an accelerated pace utilizing a local work force estimated at over six hundred tradesmen and laborers with a five hundred and four foot main span over the mississippi river erected in just forty seven days on september th the new bridge opened to traffic more than three months early the design and construction of the important interstate link that serves one hundred and forty one thousand vehicles per day was completed in just eleven months this was only possible due to the spirit of cooperation and teamwork between the minnesota dot and the permitting agencies to eliminate road blocks often encountered in the environment permitting phase of the project while still providing a sustainable eco friendly bridge that the community is proud of from notice to proceed with construction to opening to traffic was three hundred and thirty nine days the private sector was given the freedom to enhance the project quality introduce innovations and engage the community in selecting some of the bridges dominant visual features the bridge highlights innovation with smart bridge technology three hundred and twenty three sensors that provide long term valuable information on the bridge landscaping provided better drainage nanotechnology concrete cleans pollution from the air and led lighting a first for highway cuts the cost of energy and maintenance but when it came to innovation there was no  anyone that these things needed to be done these were choices and benefits that were brought to the project through an open streamlined process it was a triumph of our recovery and our country can have the same recovery myriad of public projects so that america gets the benefit of efficient science based and cost time sensitive regulations in a manner that gets important infrastructure built while still protecting and caring for our important environment private industry when given more freedom can achieve amazing results to build a stronger america it is time to inspire the recharging of the american spirit to help us grow into a strong economy cirt and its members stand ready to assist  committee in whatever way it can to provide input into possible approaches and methodologies that will apply the streamlining lessons of successful work to a larger scope of federal projects i want to close by thanking you mister chairman and the other distinguish union or unions and more frequently construction employers and the owner assures that the project will be built under union terms and conditions but not necessarily by union workers and receives in turn a number of benefits  assurance against strikes or other disruptions of construction activity and typically very close labor management cooperation and an informal means of resolving disputes an assurance of ready access to appropriately skilled labor within forty eight hours of the need they can and often do obtain concessions from building trade unions with regard to wages benefits and working conditions and plas can be used to achieve socially valued goals such as advancing individuals from low income and disadvantaged groups into construction training programs and into good jobs in the construction industry now plas can provide value to owners of construction projects but that requires choosing the right project  writing the right pla owners need to know what they need from a pla and how to write the pla they need it is used extensively in the private sector because there is knowledge of this it is possible to do this we find that dow chemical toyota pfizer pharmaceuticals donald trump used plas to obtain value in their construction work now plas provide two forms of value we need to distinguish these first of all there is construction value this can be with a well written pla on the right project cheaper to complete on time completion better quality construction better safety and health outcomes and reduced need for oversight by project managers there is also social value and this can be pr of superior training and access to jobs family supporting wages and benefits adhered to labor and employment law reduction in medical social costs to local community local hire it can also have possible negative consequences of excluding non union employers but we will talk about that where do we expect to see value from plas in terms of industrial and commercial projects my interviews i have interviewed more than two hundred people or my co authors have larger projects five dollars million to ten dollars  threshold for industrial and commercial projects where completion time is important projects where skill levels and training are important projects built under prevailing wage requirements how do plas create value first of all direct concessions change overtime and premium rates modify apprentice ratios and so on there can also be harmonization of working time across trades changing start times holidays flexible scheduling a number of other steps that increase the efficiency of the utilization of labor and i should say that these issues face non union as well as union contractors in terms of the terms of the trade and how the employees actually expect to be treated provision of skilled labor on an expedited basis there was a big issue in obtaining skilled labor and it delayed many projects from two thousand and two to two thousand and seven in fact it killed a number of private sector projects and yet a pla was a good investment in making sure that if you were going ahead with a project you would have the labor when you it employers do not need to carry excess labor we can also talk about how plas improve communication and cooperation on projects and better coordination in a litigious and potentially chaotic industry the management structures in many of the other pats of the construction industry today make it very hard for construction managers or dcs to actually control the project and get the results they want plas become a tool to improve coordination the no strike provision has also allow numerous pla projects to continue during local contract disputes i dont have time right now to talk about whether how plas affect project costs but would be happy to answer questions on this i will say that if one  reviews studies that meet minimum standards of scholarly quality the evidence isnt there that plas affect project costs indeed most of the work that is cited is bad quality in the sense that it is quite inaccurate but i would like to speak to the issue of exclusion and this issue of whether it is a bad thing that non union contractors are potential excluded from project labor agreements a first point is that the controversy we should be clear this is not about construction value this is about social values this is not about making a project cheaper making a project come in on time this is about social values and whether the potential exclusion of part of the labor force is an issue that we should respond to and it may well be a public policy issue we need to understand that there are a series of other social values that advance such as adherence to labor and employment law in an industry which has a very mixed record on following employment law that plas encourage the provision of training through apprenticeship and pre apprenticeship programs that they assure the provision of family supporting wages and benefits even for non union workers on the job that there is plas generally encourage the use of a local labor force so that wages and benefits stay in the local area and they generally reduce social costs to an area when  unbenefitted construction workers use free community medical services now what i am arguing here is that if a social value is that we not exclude non union workers from projects these need to be weighed against the positive social values that seems legitimate a second is it is not that hard to write a pla that includes provisions which would make it more possible for non union contractors to participate the toyota pla only requires a letter of asset it allows non union contractors to bring current work force onto the job and paying union level benefits into their own funds and a trust fund for employees but they pay union rates and indeed frank mahomet who is an abc representative at a conference we had at michigan state university chairman ranking member members of the committee thank you for allowing me to give testimony today being the youngest of fourteen children eight boys and six girls from the great state of louisiana lake charles is where i was born i have had the opportunity to work in the electrical washington d c and also several other states in the spirit of the american dream i purchased bay electric company inc in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven bay is a non union merit shop and began in business over forty seven years ago the company had revenues of just over one dollar million when i bought it and over the years our team has grown this enterprise to roughly over eighty five times that size we have grown the size of our work force from eighteen when i purchased it to over one hundred and ninety today our work force has one hundred and fifty five field workers which are licensed electricians apprentices which are registered in state and federal programs foremen laborers superintendents office staff of thirty five persons project managers and so on bay performs a large amount of work and service work with the department of defense the army navy air force  and all of the defense groups state and local governments as well as private customers from maine to florida and as far west as louisiana the projects range in size from thirty one dollars million to as small as a sixty eight dollars service order we perform large scale complex electrical projects which includes low voltage fire alarms lighting high voltage up to thirty five thousand volts controls monitors and many electrical tasks bay also is a full service general contractor over the last five years we have all the projects that we have done were completed on time and under budget bay has a ninety nine point nine on time project completion rate and has never been assessed lds for late delivery by any federal state or local agency virginia and over ninety percent of the work both public and private is performed by non union firms such as bay electric company no merit shop contractor would sign a pla because among other things the non union workers would have wages taken out for health plans welfare retirement and also other deductions to which the worker will never see a benefit of and will not be vested in these union plans union only agreements drive up costs and in most cases add numerous man hours to projects and drive up costs both direct and indirect with the tenuous state of our economy nationally and the difficult times we are in with real unemployment in construction nearing over twenty three percent can any government entity afford to waste precious funds as a former union member it troubles me that unions would want a special deal just for them when fair competition is a cornerstone of  any hope of being employed by union shops as shown in the attached washington national stadium studies union minority membership rates are horrible and the union leadership does not represent minorities in any chairman and members of the subcommittee appear before you today on behalf of the associated builders and contractors it is a national construction industry trade association representing twenty three thousand merit shop contractors employing two million workers abcs members believe that construction contracts should be awarded to the lowest responsible bidder through full and open competition based on merit with no discrimination based on labor affiliation these same principles have been written into federal law the competition in contracting act requires federal agencies to award procurement contracts on the basis of full and open competition to the maximum extent practicable those are direct quotes from the law unfortunately the administrations efforts to impose project labor agreements as part of the federal procurement process threatens to violate the competition act at the expense of taxpayers as we have already heard according to official government statistics eighty seven percent of construction workers currently choose not to belong to any labor unions i must respond to something said a couple of speakers ago that exclusion of non union contractors is a mere social value i would think that inclusion of eighty seven percent of the construction work force is not only a social value and a construction value it is a fundamental right in our country government mandated plas result in the award of federal construction contracts primarily to the much smaller group of unionized contractors and their union employees this is special interest favoritism it is not full and open competition it is not what the law requires that is why in two thousand and one president bush issued an executive order which was upheld in the courts that prohibited the federal government from requiring contractors to enter into project labor agreements during the eight years of that executive order there were no significant labor related problems on any federal contracts the buildings did not fall down indeed it was on project labor agreements some of the most notorious ones such as the big dig the iowa events center miller park all project labor agreements that were government mandated those did fall down causing fatalities  and untold damage open competition on the federal sector under the bush executive order obviously worked nevertheless with no evidence of any labor related problems on federal construction projects pres obama signed his own executive order in february two thousand and nine which revoked the bush order that was working and instead encouraged federal agencies to mandate plas on federal construction projects exceeding twenty five dollars million in costs but the president does not have the authority to override the competition acts requirement of full and open competition there has been no factual justification for the change in policy offered up by any of the government agencies including those who are in attendance today we heard a couple of rationales for it that it is to avoid strikes well there were no strikes going on on federal projects to gain access to a larger pool of labor tell us how that is possible when you exclude eighty seven percent of the work force  just to name a few of the false rationales that have been offered up that is why abc members have filed a series of bid protests with the government accountability office to stop unjustified pla mandates from being imposed by federal agencies through these protests we have forced a number of agencies to withdraw those mandates yet we continue to see threatened pla requirements showing up on agency procurement around the country as was confirmed again in m testimony today that we are going to hear but that we saw on the subcommittees website we intend to file a protest against the gsas new preference policy in favor of plas on an upcoming project that policy has already resulted in a multi million increase in the cost of construction on a project awarded here in the district of columbia that mister ennis company was excluded from and gsa should be required to make public the price comparisons between pla and non p each of the projects listed in mister pecks testimony many independent studies scholarly ones i might add have found that plas increase the cost of construction by as much as eighteen percent in fact studies commissioned by the federal government have found that studies commissioned by state governments have found cost increases from plas the government mandates of plas will therefore result in reduced job creation within the construction industry at a time when we have this staggering twenty two percent unemployment figure they hurt small businesses particularly subcontractors they discriminate against minorities and women owned businesses which are overwhelmingly non union they do nothing to increase or stabilize construction employee wages which i also heard referred to today because the davis bacon act already protects construction industry wages at a very high rate i will refer the rest of my remarks given i have run out of time that is in my written testimony but i appreciate the opportunity to speak to great job for several of the companies that i have the privilege of representing in ohio so we appreciate that i want to get right to the agreement and i want to try to yield some time we have some embers who have really been on this issue like mister guinta from new hampshire i want to give some time to him but let me just ask you this i want to understand how this your point mister baskin we want to know why exactly mister baskin yes it is actually worse than that because they say it is not based on price one price could be lower than the other the non union price could be lower but they are just going to give this extra bump on the technical fifteen seconds to the gentleman from new hampshire who has been working on this issue very hard mister guinta thank you mister chairman in full disclosure i support and proposed an amendment to ban plas i want the witnesses to know that before we start this we have to find and do more with less and in an era where we have a budget crisis and i believe it is a crisis where we have a one dollar sixty cents trillion deficit and a fourteen trillion debt i think it is incumbent upon us and the country expects it is incumbent upon us to really navigate through these issues and find a better way to invest in our country and improve on our country  find it disheartening that we would as a pla does give greater access to one group and not another that is really the substance of the frustration  have with this issue i wouldnt say that asking for equality is anti union or pro small business i think it is an equity and fairness issue have heard from every small business owner who is non union that they would like to do nothing but compete and i heard you mister biagas say that i think that would be better for the market better for the project better for the consumer better for the taxpayer and i would argue better for both the union and non union shop so with that in mind i can certainly stay for some questioning later would like to get to the crux of why there is this assumption that a union must have an advantage over a non union shop that is a question that i think deserves to be answered thank you very much mister chairman one of the witnesses claimed that plas are racist that is a pretty serious charge so i asked staff to look at federal cases to see if there are any cases that have been filed on this question angeles and orange county building and construction trade council and the findings substantive and procedural due process claims here is what the court said this is the court of appeals the plaintiffs contend that the psa they call there violated their rights to substantive and procedural due process by depriving them of liberty and property interests protected by the th amendment and the court says we conclude that plaintiffs cannot make this threshold showing so i just wanted to submit this for the record when you say racist you had better be able to back it up also mister chairman i would like a yes or no answer from doctor belman did you say that these project labor agreements cover both public and private competition and drive up construction costs as you know executive order thirteen thousand five hundred and two focuses on large scale construction projects where a total cost to the federal government is twenty five dollars million or more and which are generally more complex and of longer duration can you tell us how competition among bidders for these types of large construction projects impact costs mister belman yes there actually is very limited careful research on this but what is clear by a colleague of mine professor peter phillips of utah suggests that on large projects having three to four bidders is more than enough to get close to minimum cost because the gains from winning a bid are so large that employer bidders want to make sure that they get it smaller projects one is more willing to roll the dice kind of a las vegas approach to construction contracting because if you can get if you put in a high bid but you still win you make a competition for contracts mister belman i havent researched that question mister kucinich in his written testimony mister ennis expressed concern regarding the governments insistence that all government contracts of a certain size must use union labor despite shrinking levels of union peer reviewed studies one by beacon hill that suggests that plas increased project costs in massachusetts schools by about twelve percent fourteen percent my own work in industrial relations which takes a much closer look at this and chairman and thank you to all of our panelists for being here today this congress has made the economy and job creation our number one priority as this nation has faced twenty plus months of unemployment at nine percent or above so to you all in the panel who are the job creators thank you and we look forward to working with you to create an environment where you can create jobs and you can be successful and the government isnt in the way of your progress and your success so thanks for being here today my first question is to mister biagas and i might say to you my chief of staff is the oldest of fourteen so you two have a lot in common or not so i want to give you the opportunity because the allegation in what you stated in your statement is a serious one maybe you could cite for us some specific examples mister biagas yes maam in the attachment the handout i had there was a study that was done on the washington national stadium which had a pla it also had goals and also further say if you would look into that study you would certainly find that there was an obvious attempt not to hire these inner city minorities which the intent or the bill of goods that was sold with the pla was they were going to hire a bunch of inner alameda county jury awarded a black construction worker four hundred and ninety thousand dollars for racial harassment on the pla san francisco airport project the philadelphia city council found that minority standards were not being met under plas in that city the mayor of buffalo new york made similar criticisms and the washington national stadium already referenced these and other specific instances of racism and racist problems and minorities and women under plas are set forth in our reports on the poor performance of plas a new edition is coming out and i would be happy to provide that to the committee ms buerkle thank you very much my next question is to ms figg because when you were asked the yes or no question regarding the pla project for the bridge the i thirty five bridge i had the feeling you wanted to explain that but my understanding is you are here to talk to us about regulations and that is what this subcommittee is about so perhaps you could just give us first of all it is encouraging to know that a project of that magnitude could be accomplished in that short a period of time had that not been on the fast track can you give us some estimate of the cost and what it would have cost review processes private industry knows what the regulations are so they put forth a proposal that accomplishes meeting those it is the review process that takes so long to just confirm that in fact what you put forward was meeting the criteria so we see many times where you submit information for an environmental process for instance and it goes on for a number of years but the project doesnt change from the day you submitted the original proposal so it is just it is a time waster and there are indications that there is at least a ten percent additional cost and more some have indicated in our construction industry round table sentiment indexes up to fifty percent of additional cost due to these overlapping regulations ms buerkle thank you mister ennis just briefly you mentioned in your opening statement that you bid on three jobs and you  a the third project from what i understand they never could come to an agreement on a pla i believe they withdrew it all three of these proposals are technical proposals of which any of that information was never w bush administration project labor agreements were banned then under clinton they were encouraged then under george w bush they were banned again no under obama they are encouraged so we have gone back and forth back and forth and i know  er baskin is a professional at figuring this stuff out but it strikes me as odd that in a couple of panels of sworn witnesses here we have such a completely different understanding of the facts it almost hard to imagine we could have such a different impression because on the face of the executive order it says that executive agencies may require these things it doesnt say they have to and then in the to testify i believe i dont want to jump the gun here that he says on page five any contractor may compete for and win a federal contract requiring a project labor agreement whether or not the contractors employees are represented by a labor union and he goes on to describe a lot of other flexible provisions that these may contain because these have to be negotiated so it is kind president clinton came in with a did not issue an executive order merely a memorandum i guess the point about the current executive order lets talk about the present day it says they shall encourage agencies to require and under what right should any agency be able to require a restricted bid specification which is what a pla is that reduces competition that is really what this is all about all we are asking for is f that was already in the competition and contracting act but we have brought four protests that have all been successful i think because the agencies have recognized that there is an over reach involved here mister cooper but how about th whether or not a contractors employees are represented by a labor union mister baskin and because of the discriminatory aspects of telling what are you doing there you are telling a non union contractor to completely revamp his way of doing business that which has made him successful and would make the private sector plas often do require that a contractor be a permanent signatory to a local agreement i havent done a thorough enough study of public plas to know where they stand but they are certainly moving toward greater openness to non union contractors to drag along clauses and to dealing with benefit issues but i do have to say is that while open competition is important the point of the open competition is to provide the public with value and there are projects and that public value can be increased through the use of project labor agreements i am not sure that it is wise to come up with a policy that would prevent the public chairman i think the point that i would make is why does a good lawyer have to write a good pla mister baskin if your preference would be i assume not to have to engage in writing a pla correct yes but it is not just me we are talking thousands of contractors around the country who have voiced their opposition to being forced to change their way of doing business and to force unions on employees who work for them who dont want it have a vote if that is what the to correct me please it states in awarding any contract in connection with a large scale construction project or obligating funds pursuant to such a contract executive agencies may on a project by project basis require the use of a project labor agreement by a contractor so what it says to me is a very clear suggestion that you should require project labor agreements now technically under the law the word may covers the fact that you dont have to but what i would like to know is how many terms of federal contracts recently mister guinta you had testified earlier and i would like to hear about this a little bit more i apologize i had to step out of the room but you talked about value can you just talk to me a little bit more about the social value that you are referring belman okay well let me give you an example on the west coast there are a number of project labor agreements that contain very extensive provisions for moving individuals in low income areas or from minority groups through pre apprenticeship training programs into apprenticeship programs and then into full journeyman status now having and the extensive systems of community overview there are extensive joint panels that make sure that these are effective and every review i have read suggests that they are extremely effective in moving particularly african americans and hispanics into well paid highly trained jobs where they are very productive members of the work force so that is i interpret that as a positive social value that can be generated by plas and isnt generated in their absence mister guinta so am i to assume based on that described value that the engineering news record and from the construction users round table is that there is a crisis in construction training that there is under investment in construction training and that is largely on the non union side can we find good non union construction companies union construction companies that will go out there and compete for pla work get the contracts and do well you bet but on average non union companies are much more dependent on public refute that last statement you made mister belman no they dont they simply say as i said there are some great companies non union companies out there that do very well but the typical non union company does much less training and invests much less in training than a union company just like contrary to some of the things that are said here there is african americans make up a smaller percentage of the non union work force today than the do the union work force so if you hire a union company you are more likely to have an african american worker on the job than if you hire a non union company mister guinta so based on that argument we should apply this standard to very industry in the country mister belman which standard mister guinta the requirement that unions participate in any industry not just the construction industry because unions according to what you are saying spend more time training yet the rest of the free market industrialized countries that is a reason why our economy is not functioning as well as we would like whether unions are the solution to this i have to be neutral on but i do know that in construction unions and their signatory employers i should make that point these are through joint labor management committees spend far more on training through private means than does the non union sector and that in many times the non union sector is dependent on their for their most just a couple of points i think this is just a fascinating discussion because as mister cooper had said it seems like we are talking over each other and not necessarily getting much clarity the project labor agreement that toyota has embraced is one that is worth spelling out a little bit and jeff caldwell said as the former head of construction for toyota north america i have numerous real wor experiences with plas and i can say without any equivocation that they are valuable tools for any entity seeking an economical and efficient construction process toyota has constructed numerous automobile truck and engine production facilities in the united states each of these construction projects was completed or is being completed under a project labor agreement that ensures that our facilities were built a steady supply of high skilled and productive workers in every instance and i underscore this this process worked beautifully and the proof is in the results toyota north america construction costs are roughly one third less than other major automobile manufacturers who eschew the use of project labor agreements now a big point is being made appeared nine workers were detained in a raid at a va hospital job site in florida these nine people are in the united states illegally were found to be working on the construction of a new veterans administrat hand we have some federal agencies that are not interested in doing plas we have an example where one was clearly not using a pla and they have nine workers who have been detained because they are illegal and working in this country am sure they are jobs that american workers would love to have let me just speak a little bit about tammy miser who is the sister of a man that was burned to death to dust collectors and the csb concluded that had the company adhered to the national fire protection association standard for combustible metal dust the explosion would have been minimized or prevented altogether i guess my belman do you think that we have a productive discussion today about the impact of osha regulations without involving stories like the worker who lost his life  any economist would say if you are going to take a look at regulations you need to look at the benefits as well as the cost one could of course look at purely the costs of building a containment vessel on a nuclear reactor and conclude they are a bad idea thank you mister chairman let me begin by stating that i strongly support project labor agreements apparently the bipartisan majority of the house of representatives does as well because recently during the debate on the job killing spending bill that we passed my colleagues on the other side of the aisle attempted to end all plas on public construction sites across the country and that amendment failed on a tie vote in the house if you do the math you realize that would not have passed or would have not been prevented without republican support in opposition to that amendment plas play an important role for economic development in iowa and across the country they provide good paying jobs for hard working americans and now they are under attack not just here but also in my state the truth is that plas have proven to be very cost effective in the s in dubuque iowa the local building trades council negotiated building construction exceeded our expectation because it was finished thirty days ahead of schedule and ten percent under budget i have a list here of two hundred and eighty pla projects in the quad cities that were completed either on time just recently our governor terry branstead issued an executive order banning plas on public works projects in iowa including an existing pla in cedar rapids for the cedar rapids convention center a city that was devastated by flooding two years ago when its entire downtown was underwater ironically mister chairman the number one supporter for this pla project moving forward is the current mayor of cedar rapids ron corbett who used to be the republican leader of our state senate after the executive order was issued mayor corbett asked the governor to consider using fifteen dollars million from a state jobs fund to finish the project but our governor refused the mayors request and as a result this enormously important economic development project is now on hold putting a work stoppage on this project is harmful to cedar rapids community and to iowa if plas are banned in congress what is happening in cedar rapids will happen all over the country that is why i urge my colleagues to continue opposing any efforts to end pla funding and now i want to talk about that pla on the bridge in minneapolis which i happen to have in my hand one thing we know is that this project finished early and under budget that is correct isnt it ms figg it was completed under a pla in only eleven months and for less than the two hundred and fifty dollars million earmarked by congress and the transportation secretary mary peters said it should not take a tragedy to build a bridge this fast in america and i should point out this pla was entered into when george w bush was president isnt that correct no  baskin you brought up something i want to talk about and you went off script in your opening so i wasnt prepared for this but you mentioned the iowa events center something i happen to know a great deal about you said when referring to these building projects know that on massive construction projects of this size regrettably fatalities are not uncommon whether or not they are union contractors isnt that true mister baskin yes we will agree that the safety level between union and non union is roughly the same mister braley and so one of the things that you talk about is the challenges that your group has filed to these plas in fact you filed a challenge in iowa on that events center project and the iowa supreme court in a six to one decision upheld the right of that pla to move forward even seeking to discriminate and the justification has been that plas are better somehow and that plas dont have safety problems and that they dont have delays and all the things we just heard and that is simply not the case they do have these problems and then some and so then what is the justification for discrimination which the unquestionably have that is our only point and we are only talking about government mandated plas we are not concerned here today with the private sector wants to do with their own money is for them to decide sometimes it is under coercion we are not arguing about that mister braley so is it your testimony today that the abc is not opposed to private  you that african american male unemployment is like sixty five percent and i assume that a pla would be helpful there a properly designed pla that was sufficiently large could be used to move disadvantaged men and women through various stages of training to much better jobs than they currently fill mister cummings and what happens so often in these neighborhoods is that folks come in and they do work right in front of their houses and theyre sitting on the sidelines having an opportunity to work they come from everywhere i see it all the time and so a pla i take it you could have provisions in there that would help with regard to training so that they would be given an opportunity to use their tax dollars to take care of their families learn a trade or and then move forward in life has that been your belman in point of fact most of the west coast port and other plas which have these training programs also have an effective local hire provisions which sets very clear goals for movement through pre apprenticeship into apprenticeship programs they are pretty thoroughly reviewed and there is oversight by community group as well as by employers the ports or other owner organizations in the building trades and the reports that i read and people i have talked to have indicated they have been very effective in this and plas have an advantage over any other training program because they are connected one problem with government supported training programs it that they tend to not be connected to jobs at the end you train people they come out there is not a job for most of the pla work there is a job and there is a clear advancement pre apprenticeship apprenticeship and then opens the door for opportunity in other words it is like an engagement and then hopefully a marriage mister belman yes because pre apprenticeship programs in particular invest a lot of money in training but that is very important so it is not a guarantee simply because you show up that you are going to end up in a wonderful career but for the right person it opens up opportunities that otherwise dont seem to exist and so when you have for example the african american unemployment rate consistently consistently almost double the general unemployment rate and if you are talking about creation of jobs and you are talking about long term jobs and you are not just talking about jobs but you are talking about careers and you are talking about people contributing back into society a pla may not be a bad idea if it were rebuilding a high school it has been very successful indeed the construction academy and the linkage from high school students taking courses and then doing internships over the summer and having privileged access opportunities has continued even though the pla has expired and indeed the construction industry is so enthused about getting very good students and into white collar as well as blue collar jobs that they have now started a training program for high school math teachers so they can take their experiences in construction back to the classroom and encourage better students to think about construction careers mister cummings so it is about opportunity