perspective the immigration judge who was a visiting judge to los angeles to listen to the testimony an opportunity to also consider certain other things that were relevant at that time as are relevant now that being that the parents of this particular individual had been granted asylum by the services for the mere fact that this individual had been convention yet did not make his decision to be country specific that's why the government appealed to feel that portion of the decision saying that the judge heard because it was not country specific peeled the judge's decision because we felt that the respondent was entitle to relief because there was sufficient evidence and there was sufficient nicest to be you know married at the basis for asylum because he so therefore denies asylum and then when they're looking at the argument that the government making with regards to protection under the torture convention relief on the the torture convention he cites that the state department report is replete with problems in the military people that did dealing well if he goes back and he's going to be a desert to he's certainly going to be tortured it's on the net your position it is my position that again i insist that he is a member of a particular social group even though no one at the trial level mentioned those particular words i might you're asking us to make a finding he's a member of particular social group which you don't have much of a record on which to me i didn't talk because i believe that the reason we appealed that the reason that the responded appealed was that we concluded that the judge was wrong that there was sufficient basis also one more thing that's very important here we're having to educate the government officials from the immigration all the way through the courts to having them go step by step what is the actual rule and the application  of we're sort of stuck with that record it seems to me i respect you disagree because that then the decision becomes inconsistent because even though there is no particular social group and then it goes on to say but the record reveals however that he was not subject to torture in this two years in the military and looks at past persecution whereas the standard of review for  withholding under the torture convention is that we're looking at the likelihood of persecution by a public official or by someone at the or standard is being applied if there's some ambiguity in the standard i agree i agree i think that but in our particular position we think that there's more evidence that not only is this will undoubtedly be resolved whenever this court decides what it what it's going to do in the long haste the question before the court is whether the record compels reversal of the board's findings and our submission is that it doesn't indeed the country condition reports so the government of army need to be fairly active in its efforts to decrease abuse of recruits in the military particularly on paper information on that on record pages one eighty seven and one hundred nine if the court has no particular questions we would just ask that the petition for review be denied because the record doesn't compel reversal i some abuse or harsh conditions but nobody was hitting him over the hand on the other hand there's a strong showing that there's a lot of abuse in the military now he's in this country he's obviously a dessert or not i don't know what the punishment of them deserves that's not for us to say but suppose the punishment of the desert or would be pretty severe as i make any difference what he said was that the conditions that exist for common soldiers in the armenian army are best described as dire and the treatment by officers in that army leaves a good deal to be desired  protection is country specific specific what does that mean that under cat he cannot be removed to armenia i mean he's  soldiers or something and his father made some fairly strenuous efforts on his behalf and that would give his father a claim that the son would not necessarily have with a minor would come in under the parent and you don't have to have that and indeed right that's that's correct and i guess we don't know why that didn't happen that's correct your honor the certainly there's certainly a lot of talk about the family being sacred and family values but in this case you know we have we also have the immigration law