apply in this case absent compare this court to disregard the waiver and i also knowledge the reason edwards case dealing with the st condition of supervised release that we challenge him and submit that to mr gross's case  compelling reasons can exist for this court to at least under back to correct in florida i think that at the prior prior to flores it was directed toward the defendant they gave the defendant the benefit of the doubt and simply remaining silent rather than flat out waiving other issues christianson what you know obviously the court thought about this in flora's but yes i think it's not right to see flora's is just a simple case of remaining silent what florists does is it by way of example i think lists all sorts of circumstantial evidence that would lead one to infer the johnson against service type intentional relinquishment of a known right if you did not just stay silent but you don't object you have notice you object to some things but not others and on and on the whole thing floros sets forth and i'm not aware that circumstantial evidence is inadmissible to prove actual way for number one maybe the in dishes of waiver will vary a bit from case to case i expect it would but what florists does i be there to waive the particular issue raised which is more in line with general waiver versus forfeiture law i understand this court's desire to curtail the amount of argument that has been given the supervisor use cases and perhaps time and circumstantial evidence more readily in these type of cases because there is a remedy that remains for the death however as rivers we discuss in our brief there's that remedy with the modification later is i'm not sure that that's what the purpose of florists is at the purpose is really to bring to defendant's attention that there is a place where you can address this and the proper place to raise  in the st instance is before the district court where the if there is a constitutional problem or of take this issue on these conditions that the district court can cure it then and there a because i think even you will agree that in many sentencings challenges like these are not thought of at the time and there are almost afterthoughts that the district court didn't have the chance to address and in the  st instance and this is actually an interesting example look that i'm not going to point fingers anybody came up with this line which but i probably read this condition number  it's not well written i mean of defendants criminal record based on risk associated with and i don't know what based on even modifies and you've got the government saying oh it's really just saying that's why we have those in which case it all looks like or or whether somebody is you construe it means that notification requirements are how based on means these are the things you need to talk about in your notification i don't know what this thing many had this been raised to judge conley maybe he could have fixed it or clarified what he wanted to say and it's it's not that we're going to forget the point either i can assure you you know we will we will take this seriously  but if you don't raise it at the time just for a judge has that opportunity then maybe later fixing it is is the best we can do i agree your honor and to address your and your st is that yes it's actually defendants being imposed i know of three cases two of them are my mark herder's case which is mentioned in my briefing mr gross's case and mr edwards caves and it is an extremely difficult condition to understand is this a condition that's written in the form that the court uses it to see form or is this something new language that's being created or offered by the probation department or the government that's being added into the forms well my understanding is that it's different in each district that i've had in your district well before the district or mr gross we ask it on its and opposing counsel might actually who practice in that district and does these cases might kno so it seems to look like it's in the form but i don't know if this is a wrap of gold you know thanks wouldn't you would i don't describe it based i know some judges or some districts use check boxes so all the conditions are on the form and they just check the boxes i think the western district cuts and pastes that's what this looks like right but it's probation who's making those so when i do admit the defense counsel needs to be better i make making these objections i also submit that the government has an obligation to make sure these are understandable conditions and yes this one is a perfect example of i read it one way and argued and when the government argued the other way i looked i said ok and i i understand the then the rest of it i'm not sure what that means then for the defendants for his obligations to the probation officer so it is up to probation and that this record and the government in defense counsel to not have conditions like  this that are hard to understand hard to implement i have a hard time explaining it to my client witness mr crowe subject to be released two thousand and thirty six ok so he has time certainly when he's released he could go back and ask for clarification absolutely and i think i think i think what will he have counsel at that point you know now that's the problem and so everybody says if you want to do it counseled you've got to do it up front right and the problem then becomes from a defendant's perspective is that no defendant who is now served his time in a significant amount of time necessarily wants to submit himself to the district court and while we all think that's perfectly normal and we're comfortable in front of judges the defendants often  not and want to avoid the courts much as possible and would he not have counsel because the c g a doesn't provide for it at that point some district court judges and this is just from my experience will appoint yes an attorney to represent someone in that situation but not all do i don't know judge calmly conley's preferences i don't know judge connelly will be on the bench and i don't know if the probation officer officer who wrote it will be on will be employed so it is subject to en easiest way is to again to have this court send it back that sends a message to the district courts which i think necessarily goes more directly to probation also i continue to send the message to defense counsel in the remaining seconds i would like to record just quickly address the nd issue in that there is a mistake in that issue and that's the nd condition is the victim versus victims and i think that that does need to be corrected to at this point  probation and the court in our office to modify these conditions to be in compliance with this court precedents and the law i don't have the faintest idea actually every time i read it it's not worse i thought of more things that might mean instance condition printed preprinted and the release form or is this something that's cut and paste and added to it as i stood and added in as i understand it is preprinted however it's subject to modification it's being modified all the time so what is preprinted is being modified you know the court i'm sure is aware that the original condition would most mr gross appeal was that he must notify of risk so this is a probation attempting to get this right and clearly it's not perfect yet but they will work on it and we certainly will inform them of this court's opinion of this condition and continue working with them however it seems like this is in the area and i know this is happened in the northern district of illinois before where all three sides could get together not for purposes of any particular case but to try to improve this when you're not advocating for a particular client at the to make it better and i can tell this risk the other two parts of this problematic phrase referred the registration obligation and soreness and so maybe you might say well registration is separate from the criminal record you not only have to notify about the criminal record but you also have to notify the you're one of those people that has to register under or not it doesn't really say that i mean but it could say that if and then we would   st sentencing although the notification one has been modified to try to make it better but the victim one was exactly the same there was no no objections there to get the conditions ahead of time he objected to four find that this was waived as far as if the court did get to the plane air review as we've said that conditional levon could be worded better but we don't believe clean air as far as the victims for mr gross to state that he doesn't know who the victims are all and then to say that you know the part about the one thousand feet with the in residence and work can't be within and then to put a map of sparta i don't know how useful it is given he won't be out until two thousand and thirty and who knows where people live by then or be working and it also doesn't say he can't be within a one thousand feet he can't loiter you can't well i'm interested that you raise that because i've looked at that and it's called to mind the long line of supreme court decisions about loitering you know and when does it you know when is it incompatible with your right to you know just sit down on a park bench for a few minutes and you know what's loitering and i see other bruce or loitering has some purpose and boy to ring if you're waiting for the light to turn green i mean there's all kinds of fuzziness in that word it and i agree on this condition also could be worded better however i don't think that it is it would still give him noticed a reasonable notice of what you shouldn't do don't be hanging around within a one thousand feet and if he doesn't know where they work that wouldn't be that hard to find out but again this is something that you know in a long time you know many many years affect his ability to be outside in the public because you know you think loitering means something that you know does that mean stand around for more than ten minutes with no purpose you know or what what does that mean and i think all of these new bit conditions could be worked out with his writing probation reworded and we will continue to work with probation to improve these conditions so that we aren't from the court arguing about the next often that sounds great thank you very much and i believe your time expired as christians and you have anything else are very good thank you then this case will be taken under advisement