amendment to a previous approval cycling to do you want to subdivision reviews because of the way that this project lays out there's all those things are affected it will go through has been but it's a little more complicated than usual this proposed project would repurpose an existing garage building for use as a seventeen thousand six hundred square foot grocery store the parcel is located at three sixty four from our group fifteen in the village center zoning district and the only second piece of public  so i need to read just to remind everyone that this proceeding will be conducted in an orderly manner consistent with our rules of procedure walk you through everything as we go through it but if you wanted a copy of the written rules you c for full disclosure correct ok so we're still we're still saying that there's no conflict of interest here ok thank you why this point i need to deal with this question of interested persons status interested persons or those minutes of a plan or by law the petitioners must designate one person to service their representative and a department in a straight of subdivision of the state owning property with an innocent the municipality and the agency of commerce and community development here's the important part for tonight only those interested persons who have participated in a dear be proceeding may appeal a decision reentered in that proceeding and environmental court pursued to states that the participation consists of offering to oral or written testimony evidence or statement of concern related to the subject of the proceeding so i bring all this up because if there were to be an appeal of the work it would the of the of a decision that came out of this hearing we would make a determination of who is interested party who is an interested party that's part of the appeal process but what we do need to do is establish who participated and so to that end there should be a sign if you going around is there something that is great everyone who's here that wants to participate please make sure you sign on that she said that we know you were here and later on when we get to public comment and you participate makes you tell us your name officer that's in the minutes of the you know you participated ok thank you  this is a croissant judicial hearing so all those that intend to speak must be sworn in what i will do is read the oath and anyone is going to participate you just say i do i hereby swear that the evidence i give in the cause under consideration shall be the miller will garner who point both of those of the bills that jericho resident and he i think lives in underhill mike actually you live in jericho too i believe and then the civil engineer of record an existing landowner or an end user that has a project of appeal that's worth it then we will joint venture with that group to get the project accomplished and usually that solves a couple things that helps from the go to as you're starting these concepts in these preliminary designs reviews and discussions we're getting into the real aspects of the use of the building both in terms of construction types and the efficiencies that are needed but also as you're looking and saying is it an operable business plan and does this really work your will to evaluate that with the construct ability in the development costs permeating design costs etc rate from the beginning and i think that's a key component  especially in a smaller project like this where there's not a lot of latitude for movement in terms of the budget everything myself i'm vermont resident born raised in vermont  i was actually lived in underhill grew up in a good part of my childhood in underhill from about fifth grade through sophomore year junior year and high school went to browns river middle school which is right next door to this project and but a couple years to mount mansfield currently we live in willesden you know which isn't far far back in my father also is kind of the reason we had we bought one of the properties from david's father way back in underhill and it's nice to kind of you back here in looking at this here i remember when the sawmill was actually still going inactive and it's nice to see you know development in the master plans and the constant plans you guys have a kind of want to just do it dilip might do a little bit of an introduction he's going to go through about little bit about him and you know the real important aspect before turned over to mike is that you know we've really tried to do a joint effort between the designers the landowner in mike itself i mean mike's a successful businessman who's operating three of these markets now and that's the really appealing par t for myself and my company of why we've actually you know participating in this because we have a lot of faith in mike and his business practices and the success that he's done in the communities that he's  already has businesses in and i think that's really important we've really tried to focus on functional design taking in consideration for the town masterplan a village center and we've also focused on you three other markets and on this one i'm really excited about i think living here i just think that the model that i already have my other three stores really fits this there's just how well the types of products i was tall the type of stores rewriting my business plan i have three stores that work very well and this is going to sort of via carbon of those other three jere spend great work to work with the audio team i mean they basically asked me what i needed and i told them this was it and didn't really give them any sort of room in a field and design was the story to fit the needs of what i need to make my business plan work on i'm pretty pleased with the way that it came out i think it will function  have the jurisdiction on reviewing our numbers reviewing whether or not there's a configuration change that needs to occur whether it's on on fifteen or whether it's within our  sight that traffic report time and probably to a couple scoping studies that have been done in this community in a lot of studies through two thousand and four all the way up to two thousand and eleven and i understand perhaps there was a recent one done recently for on the park and ride that labor on dickinson did in two thousand and fourteen so there's a lot of information out there that  we feel that can be lean and can be used utilized and certainly a detailed broad traffic report will be done we need to as i  that we need to work our way through so it was our hope that the board could see their way through to issuing a condition with the approval that way that is weighted so that we in turn provide a permit back to the board identifying that a permit has been issued through the state of agency of transportation and you would utilize that evidence t access standards you know have been adopted by the select board and are used for four private roads in connection points new access point stay highways under that section states that are subject to approval by the agency of transportation so i'm we're hoping that you might be able to find support in the ordinance to allow a condition to be written so that your evidence on the traffic report is based on an approval that we get from the state know so i'm still not clear with the procedural question are you asking us to change the status of this hearing so that you have time to do something different or are you  are you asking us whether the evidence that your provided is sufficient well for the traffic of the i think it be the latter from santa right terms of what we're talking about three with the traffic in other words have to submit a standard traffic study get the trans approval for the act of fifty and since it was a state road that's what we were presuming in terms of traffic what came out later on was possibly that you guys might require an individual or an independent no lever provision in my reading of regulations so i think it from a catholic study is required however you would provide that study so if you want to use the existing data that you reference and put something together that so this was this hearing was mourned for four combined to find out if all but but it's ok if you're not if you don't have all of the evidence that you need to  to support all of the criteria then we can handle that with a couple other and a couple different ways we could we could reclassified as here and as a preliminary close the  and give your primary decision which then feeds into a final review or we could continue this at some point to a date certain leave the hearing officially open and gather more information if you want read so it's up to the board to decide to say yes or no on any of those procedural changes so i think what i'm hearing you suggest is you're asking we would really warrant for a final the difference is whether reweave whether we rewarm for a final or whether we continue this proceeding to a date certain which has assessed the same effect do and i think we've done this in the past it probably it probably doesn't make a big difference to us the advantage that the difference is whether you get a preliminary  decision part of the preliminary hearing or strictly do not get any information from us until the hearing is closed but i'm fine you know i think you summed it up really well i think that was the the important part is based on our assumption of work the procedural issue that you just brought up in k because you know our assumption was that that in terms of the existing traffic that was out there and whether that actually added the trips and if that included based on the state road so but if if what jennifer saying is procedural question would go away if we were willing to say we don't need to do a formal traffic study we have enough information that's of this to be ok then we would then there would then it would be possible to say well i've got all i've got all the i've entered all the evidence so one thing the in the section that jennifer is referencing under there's some criteria under levon point one point five is the way it was written it doesn't identify whether or not that is to get scrutinized reviewed by the trans and there the regulatory authority that ultimately will approve and determine whether or not the trip generation that's being proposed is adequate whether what the impacts are to that chord or and so preparing that report here for the board you know certainly when the report was prepared we'd be glad to share it with you but it would be it would be nice to get a condition so that the applicant could move forward that says you will lean on the report  simple that we simply require a traffic study that's part of the evidence that we need to do a final that's the way that the regs are written your question is do we require a traffic study to to render a final decision the answer is yes  would say we'll lean on the state approval and not necessarily need to provide the board with the traffic stating going through all of that minutiae is that the project is a planned unit ordinance that you could if you chose to waive the submission and allow us just to provide the report at the time of submission to the trains and then the final permit masking is the board to take the weight of the permit that will be issued by these trillions for this project as your evidence and  not get into the details of reviewing a traffic study that the trans has jurisdiction over and just take take the week of that permit being issued as your evidence to satisfy your criteria that w get to go away just doesn't make sense to do that based on what your guys future plans are so we're trying to do that now really understand what you're saying so it is also common for us to condition approval on some other permit septic permit yes yes road and that's really good and that's what we're asking but that's a separate question ok from whether we have enough information at the time you were there at the time or they were going to render a decision so we have to make punch of the decisions of a bunch of judgment calls about this conditional use and the traffic impact is one of the nature criteria that we have to criteria that we need we need testimony on are the ones in the land use planning area so that we can so we have evidence to know whether it does or doesn't comply that's that's what we do is take evidence and figure out whether that's right whether the project does or not so if we don't have evidence on whether or not it complies then we can't make a decision so if what you're saying is that night you're not prepared to make a testimony as to whether or not it complies with the trip by giving us the right traffic study information if you're not ready to do that we can work on the other parts of it i can come back to that and i'm fighting that and that's separate from the question of whether thank you all those in favor of all opposed all right so it was so on the record you know that we're going to change the status of this hearing this is now so we're going to still cover all the information that we have we  as well get that covered it was much of it as we can and and based on that will give a preliminary will be able to get your formulary decision and cover whatever issues there are then you can then you're going to then  real quick and of death walk through the site plan the design kind of explain everything from storm water to utilities and then i have a couple different pages here to show two different options on some rendering s that we have and also some comparisons of actually in the back of the room which you are master in concept  be familiar with how many folks on the board were here in two thousand and ten but in two thousand and ten mr bill a new was in here with this amount of land here that's shaded in green and received a phase the approval and with that phase p d approval there were a multiple of uses that were discuss it discussed that were permitted that overall and i as i had mentioned before one of the nice things about coming in under a planned unit development review is that it allows flexibility encourages layout flexibility in building design placement of parking pedestrian facilities as long as you know it can be demonstrated that it meets the goals and objectives of master planning and zoning so as i mentioned before this white shaded part right here is the existing maintenance guerard on the front here is wooden office building that is a tear down market it is our opinion that the project fits extremely well into the character of the neighbor neighborhood it fits well into the town plan it's going to be one of the things that everybody is really excited about is this will successfully serve as a cornerstone or anchor to the future in film and development and redevelopment of this larger play and unit development one of the things that you need to have a successful larger planned unit development is a anchor a draw in a store is a good anchor and draw it not only supports the people that are passing by but it will also support the residential housing that will come in through future phases of the build out of the planned unit development and bills residents that are locally that surround this piece of property exist today as well as the new ones will be able to come to the market have their goods be part of a community center reduce our carbon footprint as you know everybody's interested in minimizing lined up across of raceway so this will create it in intersection here one of the things that will have to do as well have to do some traffic counts here to see what the existing condition is on fifteen in raceway what the turning movements are and then fold those into the traffic report in to include the trips coming out of here and see what the impacts are at this location but we are proposing a private street here connection on two fifteen we're coming in with a thirty foot wide traveled street and then at this point we have a fork where vehicles could  quickly occupy nine parking spaces along this end of the building or they can veer to the left and come into the primary parking area along the front of the building both this side of the building here in the front of the building here has a has a covered walkway so we're proposing a concrete sidewalk underneath of both covered walkways this one is expose here at this and the shading here represents a covered walk one of the other things that we are doing with this building is as i mentioned before this white box this rectangle is the existing building the gray that you see here this is in addition a twenty foot addition on this side we're adding a twenty foot loading dock addition over here and then this is a receiving corner addition on this side the h b a see you know the ground mounted mechanical equipment that everybody wants to be hidden is out here in the rear it's on a pad clustered in one  location here behind the building so the vehicle the general vehicle movement of this project would be coming off of route fifty coming into the primary access and then exit in back out to rupa fifteen th the delivery truck movements on this piece of property would come in through fifteen around the building like this pull up here and back into the loading dock so we have a four foot loading dock here at this location to to handle any tractor tractor trailer deliveries any straight truck deliveries or that type of deliveries bread fifteen and as as was mentioned jerry had mentioned earlier perhaps this connection to dickinson this is a connection for future planning we recognize  that at some point in time there will be some improvements here and so you know we want to make sure that we have a establish connection at some point in time when those improvements are funded or they become more into it through device other developments but we're not intice of painting this connection as being a primary connection at all one thing that it does do is if somebody is at the store in wants to head east back out  towards they can come out here not have to go back on to fifteen and then come back and then make a left turning movement back to head to underhill center so we don't see this as being a very  stream and then there's a sewer stream that comes from the deli of the cooking food service the baking excedrin so what we have is we have a gang of  septic tanks and air rated treatment tanks here that those waste streams go into and a pump station that gets us to our disposal field out here one thing  that is interesting about the location of the disposal fields in this green is that is a dual purpose this is actually a green that anchors this corner you know the grassed area but underneath is where our septic system will be located and currently there's no plan development for that so one of the the good things is that this  building matches with what your guys your concept plan was to show that open green space which i have some images of later that you guys have seen before obviously and you know that we've tried to incorporate as much of that master plan as we could into this design one of the challenges is that this building is where it is also as in a deal situation if this building you know wasn't here we're putting a new building in trying to match similar to a form based code matter or whatever you would put this building closer to this corner would actually do away with that grassy area but you know we've tried to you know adapt and still keep it i think the grass purposing in existing building in trying to minimize the amount of imperfect in pervious area that we are utilizing so you know we have this we have this drive that basically circles around this building we need t o accommodate a tractor trailer and we need to need that for fire safety but what we have done is we've doubled up on the purpose of the pavement by including parking spaces along there so in trying to minimize the amount of impervious area the amount of land that this being used for parking spaces so you'll see that there are several parking options around the building over here over here on the that this is just a gravel delta you can dig for quite a quite a long ways not hit a water table it's great seeing great gravel here so with storm water one of the things that we liked about this site is minimizing the curves so that you get run off an infiltration coming right off your pavement right off the edges right right at right from the great from the get go we have a high point here this is this is running across this here we do have to put in a couple of catch basins to pick up the higher areas of concentration where we have foot traffic to make sure that you don't get that icing but there are some there's a catch basin here one here and then it discharges here into a dry ice will this is a depression we anticipate hi infiltration but for those instances where you have january february thaw you get rain the ground might be frozen there is an outlet for that the outlet is connex there's capability of the existing soil and providing for emergency conditions if for instance we have a high rains when the soils are frozen and in a couple things with with the storm water that we're trying one of the the challenges with you know starting you know be in the first to any existing area like this village center is trying to also do some of the utilities and infrastructure that's required  what we've done here with the storm water is trying to accomplish the design that works for this specific project stand alone but that can be upgraded or changed in the future with not too much of a significant impacts the one of the specific areas in this is a mobile decent almost of us of a swell more than like you said at the pression it's not a you know a pond and one of the goals of actually  as the rest of this village town center takes shape and gets incorporated in additional infrastructure is done whether that's dealing with underground storm water tanks or tying into a future development i've heard a lot of discussions with speaking with jennifer and stuff of some master plan ideas but those are down the road and eventually you know our goal would have to be to have this filled in my personal opinion is i would like to have this field in as a grass area with some benches or you know some areas it's if this into dickinson gets improved and there's a sidewalk there that you'll have some areas for benches to sit down as you're walking down a path or whatever and not be in the way of the sidewalk so i just wanted to touch on that in terms of how the storm water was developed here is we had to look at it specifically for this project because there's no existing infrastructure that we can automatically tirade into  you know to try to go and chase anywhere else would just be too much of a burden on the project power in the rest utilities we can we can kind of cover the kind of just want to go into the next the next step here of showing when we submitted when we did our submission there weren't any renderings or colors or artistic sketches of you know what we thought the color schemes of b and there's a couple reasons for that one is we really had made up o mind in two as we kind of wanted to get some feedback on some of the the different color schemes we've obviously seen and i'm going to skip past the renderings for a quick and seen your guys concept plans  that have been done in and this is a little bit more of a barn red color that's in here there's another view in a little bit of an aerial view here overall i think the shape of the building is very very similar to the building that we've designed in fact that was kind of our basis of design when we were working with mike was we had an existing building and we were going to try to match a similar scheme to what your guys view is here a little bit of some differences that i'll just point out right now that that were change this is a second look kind of a clear story area not only is the first thing that it's it's an expensive feature that adds cost to a square footage without much of a value but in terms of a market the first comment that mike made and our first concept meeting was that had to go that natural light coming into a market wreaks havoc and mike can speak about it later on if you guys have any questions wreaks havoc in terms of both with his product in his produce but also with the climate control system in the building the dormers we've done something similar here we've just pushed them out a little bit different on one side but overall in terms of the our front entrance is this is what we do consider the front there's a vestibule area we had to add this was one big rectangle and as anybody knows if you see the weather that we're having today you need an area that knocks down and can and can condition that outside environment whether it's hot and humid in the summer days or it's cold and blustery like it is today and that's why we've added just kind of go to it that's why we've added this front bump out here where you have access from two sides but this is a vestibule area that condition's allows also for the car storage and everything else this door can open up in nice times but it does create a little bit of a client climate balance for both mike's products yet both renderings there they're identical buildings the only difference here is we've done two different color schemes so so one color scheme which is here and you can see we just put the boards up so you guys can keep running back as i talk about you know the concept plans but one has we didn't go with the barn read the bright bright fire engine red we kind of went more with what i think is a traditional red a traditional village type where you see it on  a bar and i don't really associate with a socially more with that country traditional color scheme and then we have which is tough to see and hear with a light sit in it but there is a darker band that's down below as you get you know splash back kick back and be able to at least absorb some of those marks in abuse the other one that we're looking at is more of a brown darker brown color with an even darker i think that's a dark gray bill or a dark gray for the way in scope material you'll see there's all the glass that's here is rate where there's the checkout counters mike it also indicated ingenue would ask the question before there are going to be approximately four to six tables and for seating in there he hasn't finalize it like still going through  inner interior design part of it but there will be additional seating or seating in the inside so this one's a little different then in terms of the color but i think it works frankly i haven't really decided which one i like the best but if you look at your kind of master plan views here i went the wrong way sorry the only thing that's a little different here and one of the views has it i can zoom in here let me try  to it's really that we've had a couple meetings with jan to really discuss some of the areas that are a little bit of a concern or questions and part of these have to go into what the looks are again we consider this the front of the building we understand because fifteen kind of has this curve to it and then you also have dickinson here so again it's why we've kind of put this vestibule pop out at an angle it's done it's doing two things it's kind of we're trying to align ourselves somewhat with fifteen for a look in access janet as we are going through it maybe to try to and you see with these windows and stuff to maybe try to add some additional windows on the upper area what we're looking at and talking with mike on is what they call spans are glass which is has the view of a glass and window but it's not it's it's it's covered basically on the on the backend so that that light doesn't transmit through it's almost like fake glass really it's glass but it just can't see through that works in the upper area on the lower area  when you walk up to it it just really doesn't fit it would look a little too urban for this area where on the other side where there's glass as you see from the front views and the brown actually on the right shows that that glass a little bit better you know there's there's some big store front windows that are on the front side of the building the parking aspect this was kind of a real push from mike the reason why we've asked in the question is why we have a few parking spaces here  also along the side is this this site's constraint might actually wanted about ninety spaces i think right now we're in the sixty's and so right now currently at seventy three what we've done though is we like the idea of a little bit of this gathering area and some of the tables our thought process is not to have these where you have the roads and traffic anyway but to have these incorporated into this you know village center you know village square area one of the things that we discussed with jan and i can show you here is to possibly look at and i think you guys have had the memo to possibly really look at this area the big challenge here is mike's pretty insistent on what he needs for spaces and we're basically really at the at the low end of that right now one of the concerns that janet brought up was these parallel spaces here while we don't see those getting used a lot they were important mike along with these spaces here and also these spaces on the back so how do we still try to adapt those into what your concept plan is one of the items is if we really look at this area which we'd rather not do but it's an option is to retool this curve here remove these four parallel spaces this would end up getting reconfigured slightly and by doing that we could take these nine spaces and move them out about four feet and then put a row of plantings in here that would be kind of a mixture of both some trees and also some low shrubbery i'm not sure what the base of that would be whether it be a mulch or a grassy area really depends on working with a landscape engineer them to do  that but if that's again we kind of consider that the side of the building and based on the rest of the landscape plants which we do have a rendering of and that's a concept also that dresses up that side of the building correct for what you see f ifteen correct in that's important i mean we've used a lot of this building in terms of the construction type it is we haven't really cut corners there's no vinyl siding  you know which we could put on or any of those things we tried to use would clabbered system for the front in the entryway into it whether we're also looking at a cement tish's product but either way they're more of a long lasting durable materials rather than a vinyl siding that could go on that front vestibule area and then we're looking at either insulated metal panels or in a mixture of some sort of other  believe right we're looking at a metal so we're trying to veer away from the vinyls and in the cheaper way which is significantly less expensive it's important to keep this says you know a building that actually looks again traditional and that's going to last and be something that you know can add value as the rest of this village center increases and how do we deal with the rest of these parking spaces down here again as they're needed since we had to do the traffic route around this building which is actually very similar to the master plan to as you guys have shown some original buildings down here so really this back road area kind of came to here we need this to loop around because of the truck traffic it's less it's less costly to add parking spaces down here and it also reduces the  stormwater impact because if we were to add additional spaces back up through here you'd have to add an additional road all that additional road not only is it additional cost it's actually additional impermeable of area also and one of the things we're trying to do is then we some trees that would go here on each side and then along where this whale is which hopefully eventually is filled in there be some shrubs and other brush that eventually if that gets filled in you don't want to be taken down or killing a tree at the same time and then you could replant that with additional trees or whatever for the future about how we talk about how that could be a temporary thing right with this this holds the swale yet so i kind of mentioned that earlier with the storm water rate is dead was finishing our goal is that this is temporary you know and then as the town starts to develop more this village center it starts to create more infrastructure we would love to tie in both in terms of whether it's septic or storm water both would really you know help out we've we've shown a future walkway that's going through here  again that's we're hoping that that's a temporary set up here and what the final plan is i don't have one you know right now i think there's a little bit of a debate that's still circling on additional no plan by us in terms of this market or anything and we would love to connect to an existing stormwater instead of having to do this well and then we would we would have that probably what we then would have proposed was if that soil wasn't there was  long term trees and stuff that would go read on the edge of that parking with a mixture probably some lower shrubs and stuff but this is mobile this will be you know this isn't anything that's going to  grow and have big huge you know we are over growth or any of that sort of thing i don't know what we're looking for them the ag mix there i don't know if we're going to do a strict price mix and more of an agnes to keep it a little natural but it to keep that green it's kind of i think it looks good with your guys master plan and concept plans and we're just trying to work around a couple of those constants we did have a and i guess very that's where we would end up going in and on a final approval show you what this final updated landscape plan would look like based on the discussions that we've had internally already and i think kind of addressed in sidewalks goodman so there's a couple things we've done with sidewalks one is we do have sidewalks that are integral to the building along with some covered walkway as that's important functionally as my can also speak to since dickinson has not been developed yet it hasn't been finalized we've accounted for working with the town to set up some sort of easement whether that is up being a foot or whatever but at the end of the day six feet whatever it requires for a sidewalk but we will we've basically would be willing to set that aside or go on record as saying we will work with the town to accomplish a future sidewalk on the dickinson side in terms of the fifteen side again i don't have any plans for this whole green corner so if something eventually needed to be added in there that the town wish to put in to integrate that's fine we do recognize that there's possibly could a sidewalk could go at the entrance here and we try to zoom in as we've already accounted for a cross walk here again with some tables and stuff that would go here so you can grab a sandwich or do whatever and come out and sit you know in this area and possibly incorporating a sidewalk here is also a possibility so we're really kind of looking for a little bit of a feedback from the town on that rather than just dropping a bunch of sidewalks and this is a future sidewalk it didn't make sense to add this future sidewalk in now as if you put that in now by the time the rest of the village centers in and you've got all the rest of the sidewalks that sidewalks going to be older weathered and it's really not going to any place right now so we've allowed unallocated for that we've designed our septic system around that so that it can be added later on  and i just want to make sure we get the rest of the stuff your terms of yeah fully that answer most of the question what you spoke about the sidewalk on dickenson's up the whole way you can see there just it really depends on what the master plan is it i don't have any plan development there so if it's later on down the road that the town wants to we have a i'm going to get an easement for that for if the town after their final design of the dickinson road has a sidewalk maybe it goes on the other side but if it ends up needing to go on our side of the road we will absolutely work with the town to put a sidewalk whether that's just at the corner or that continues on again and once we can fill this in in there's a there's a longer term storm water that incorporates all the village center in this field and then it could keep going they've got parallel parking on both sides or a center median like that that plan long ago showed and so since you don't know what the width of the street is going to be it's hard to put aside and this time so we just want to make sure we're going to record saying we don't have a plan for that and are willing to absolutely work with the town but i don't see the proposed plan those easements we get that was actually none of the stuff that we talked about is if you can also as you see here with and it's part of i guess with jennifer we just asked part of the interpretation that that's from the deer be if this is considered the two fronts of the building and i like dead speak more to why we actually put the parking here  but if the town feels that that needs a waiver part of the discussion with jennifer was to actually change this as i spoke about earlier in a corporate ng some landscaping and in front of here it's your question really we would just add tho get this parcel to work and working with an existing building in devil we're going to go to that so first there's an existing building that's here it also has to do with the requirements that the end user needs to get his the business or the actual development to to work so we started out by say it some of the original plans of trying to go through and not having some of these parking spaces i couldn't even get mike to the table to even discuss putting a market here that being said deb can i just address quickly why we felt that it was acceptable to put the parking on those spots and then only answer your question the waiver also jennifer and her memo has identified a couple of spots in your ordinance which allows the parking to be closed where we are proposing it  one would be eleven point two point three point three front yard parking that paragraph identifies in order to enhance in me a village character parking to serve nonresidential uses shall not be permitted between the building line and the street development review board may consider exceptions to this requirement when strict conformity can be achieved due to the site specific constraints or where overall slightly out otherwise conforms to the purpose of the district so one of the site constraint that we have here is we have an existing building we don't have the luxury to as gary had mentioned in the beginning in this presentation of bringing that building forward it's repurposed saying it's reusing a building that currently exists on the site so in order to accommodate the needs  we had to locate some parking as you had mentioned adjacent to real fifteen we are trying to mitigate that with screening in shrubbery rim's the green space jennifer has also mentioned the help would be to add the green space adjacent to the building in the parking lot to bring some more greenery in there she's recommended that we remove the four parallel spaces there adjacent to the green to try to minimizing the parking this being proposed there isn't a large parking lot we're talking about nine spaces so it's not the primary but it is an accessory parking for somebody perhaps somebody who wants to go and sit at the green perhaps somebody is waiting for to pick up a commuter that's getting dropped off there it's easy for them to go in you don't use that spaces walk over to the green and wait versus getting into the primary parking lot and having to walk over and get caught up in the cards etc the other place  allows that parking to be there would be in the alternative parking standards in those alternative parking standards i can flip t them if you like me to read those to you oh tentative parking arrangements eleven point two point five in order to prevent creating excess parking spaces and to reduce impervious surfaces into can encourage  development the following alternative parking arrangements shelby authorized encouraged in all districts part of that is eleven point two point five point three on street parking on street parking shall be considered shall not be considered front yard and shall be permitted in the village center district provided pedestrian infrastructure or sufficient right away and or easement to accommodate such infrastructure are in place that so we feel like the ordinance has the tools for you to approve the parking that you that we've been discussing and that's why the applicant is willing to offer and to work with  town if necessary pedestrian easements it's difficult to identify exactly where those need to be right now because where those get incorporated into the plan is directly related to how the p d starts to evolve and so little is easy it's maybe a little bit floating right now until we see the next project comes in and how that gets involved in as a progressive progress as we could say we want to use mn here an easement there but as the further development of the overall progresses it may not it may not make sense to have those easements where we talk about them today may have made sense to have them elsewhere so that's why his preference is to leave offer up the easements and provide those as things progress so the challenges with the parking is how to accommodate the needs of the end user so that the market successful and you can work with also the requirements that the town has in addition to trying to work with an existing building and trying to wait some of the things that we felt from what we've we've gathered the town feel very strongly about which is the town square and some of the other areas so we've had to try to prioritize and put some stuff in order for it which is why we do have most of the parking up through here but as this parking even grows it's more costly it's more an area it's more in terms of a too far so we're trying to accommodate some access especially during the middle of the day where you might have a parent either way you might have a parent that you know has some younger children that aren't in daycare yet or on in school yet and they're going to need to pull up run in run back out and they don't want to walk you know down through a whole parking lot where they have you know younger child and a lot of this deals with that access you know throughout during the day period so yes if it's considered a waiver that's what we're looking for and we try to work with jennifer in some ways to to mitigate that can we just go back for one second you  chapter and verse on some part of this and i think i think i'm confused ok when you go back and say again in the regs you were saying something about psych constraints and when that's appropriate to take into account in this section is that ye and so so the other one like yours where you look at it as the back you know this is where mike's trying to keep some of the staff parking is you don't want to see the staff picking up you know the front and in the major sides i mean this r here is the considered the best parking for the second best here or maybe mike might argue that this is the the the primary in this is secondary within this over here but the goal is is to have this than  is saf access and again that's why we've also spoken with jennifer on some ways to minimize yes actually this is in regards to the park and i'm you know i've heard a couple times that you know we're very close to really not having enough parking i would like to know the reason why you need more right now the purpose for the standers joint sixty five spaces i would like to know the reasons behind and customers house during certain hours are going to see those parking places so i already know that there's going to be i'm going to have  certain hours it will work but the main hours when i do most of my business so my other three stores we do probably seventy percent of the day's business between the hours of the war and s size compared to the other stores ok so richmond highs richmond has about forty spots assigned to it the only reason it richmond work because of that is of customers obviously i didn't spend as much time so when you get into a larger store the waterbury store has about seventy five spots and it doesn't quite work i mean it sort of works and sort of goes in but again it has overflow to the to the drugstore and to a lot of other places so folks have other options where they can park and that's stores twenty one thousand is the one jock the johnsons stormwater grease or work with a little bit less cost because again they're using overflow hardworking and other businesses here we're not going to have the option of overflow parking or there's no other businesses that sort of share parking consistently had you know the village concept plans here trying to adapt to it and i again i think we're close and i don't want to get into which parts of the village plan that we like and which ones we don't because it's you know i don't think really matters but there were some functional parts of it that both did work in terms of for this building and also that we just had a little bit of a different opinion on but we are trying to work with that because overall i really like the village plant and you know we're hoping and with this project because of the green space we're incorporating on the corner and on the side of dickinson street the total lock coverage is being reduced to sixty four percent so it's a as to how much a drive conserve we're talking about and over oh there's going to encompass twenty acres of land and we want to make sure that the access is going through this going through this project and at some point in time this one may continue this way we want to make sure that they're properly for future traffic  as he grows as a whole and not have them classified as a driveway that that is right to really arching we are trying to look at with that overall p d is what the overall master concept plan is that we are hoping that this you know  going north northeast on fifteen we're uncertain of that so we need to make sure that we're accommodating future growth and development as this project progresses to the north that  picture wise in terms of where this beauty in the overall village concept plan is going to be cognisant of that we're kind of in the first kid on the block here but we want to make sure it's the same reason through showing something on dickinson for the future too so there are always new you mention that there's presently a p u d plan in place for this property there's been a lot of talk about changing  i do have a copy of that if you would if you'd like to see but basically it just identified some future streets it identified what potential uses there might be on this on this property this entire green area this entire green area at some point in time will come in as a phase plan development which the regulations allow in which it was permitted under erase you're looking at it but i think we've also tried to incorporate what some other concepts village plans are which is  slightly different than this also but it's still not going to change you know the aspects around this building in the entrance in from fifteen so you know here's a here's a proposed street connection across  from across from this street here coming through back around fifteen that's why that's why we feel like we don't want this classified as a driveway versus rather private street this is this angle here is deliberate this is deliberate so that we can get over to this property if it needs to be recognized as i mentioned before the trans is really going to limit the number of access points on new fifty so we have to make sure that when we pick an access point that at that intersection point we have plans to continue on so you could you can envision this coming on here and then we would start continuing with  face of this building that parking lot recently the compound and then you'll start to see these buildings that ring around that so you know it's not inconceivable for th for this to write it again it's wear it again it's a century here we really need to evaluate this project you know as its own individual project because we don't have plans of what the rest of this is going to be but we've tried  know not go into this blind you know with blinders on and you know in corporate to say ok if that comes up and you have a street coming in through here and based on this insurance that's very very similar i mean this had you know cuts going through and i don't necessarily know if that's what you're going to get so we've at least said ok this doesn't work to have this for this market right now we can't do this character this is pretty close to what we're talking about here of coming in and the only difference is that this is really the only change you know is then this will eventually extend into the rest of what this village a master plan is but you know this itself has to kind of stay a little bit on its own because it just can't handle the burden of the rest of the development and i don't know if i'm going to be the person to do it you know or whatever or dave is going to somebody else so you know this is we're looking at in terms of how can this as a business plan work for this specific piece of property which is trying to tie in what we're purchasing the land from david for along with what the development in the construction costs are along with what might needs to operate a successful business and future development and deb says well you know you're looking at it you're really not looking at it we don't we don't we don't have because you don't really know what i don't know you just provided again what the we talked about this a little earlier as we just provided an update based on what's existing there off track here but they look more like this i think it's a little misleading the kind of plan and i agree in that's again that's where we're just trying to account for the what ifs or what could be as you start to do a master plan and we've done a lot of developments and you know that a lot of stuff at ski resorts and basically did all the stuff up at j p can norberg give a master plan with that master plan someone gets adapted and changed as you know each specific piece comes in and you have a specific end user that has a specific business plan or requirements and that's what we're trying to do we have a lot of opinions on the additional items that can happen later but we've got to go piece by piece to this specific end users with specific needs and specific requirements including parking is what i've learned yes because we've spent hours together now we've had three different meetings and  planning our future and that you as a developer facing with a site with a lot of preexisting constraints because you're trying to reuse that building you know and therefore base console consultant was a part of one of those conversations and you know for a base coke and sell their originally new during the master green concept which you guys have carried forward and that is appreciated you know we really like it and i think i think if you overlay it's it's it's very close it's not exact and i'm not saying it's exact i do think it's close i think with a few exceptions subpar king that's needed to for mike to be successful but in terms of even how that building looks i mean we didn't if you look at the the board you know we have put a full clear story on what we've tried to break up the the space or the sh area of that roof line and also by pushing out and doing that bump out of that twenty feet what we're calling the front of the building and adding some dormers to it and stuff it's it's it's broken off those that roof to not look is  several different factors one is that for future developmental fifteen you're going to want to be able to have a lot means of parking that you can promise these future purchasers you know so that common parking that's in the center will continue to expand but as as the development happens along fifteen not in advance of that development another thing i've learned is that there are some good sceptics whales in the area that maybe were a little reluctant to pave over initially and maybe the most important thing i learned about the parking is that you know it serves us as a town well to use that space efficiently and so when i look at the regulations well you know if you want to create additional impervious surface an additional sprawl of parking you know you don't want people you know like susan said like walk across a whole bunch of spaces to get to their destination so i looked at the regulations and what we're supposed to take into account when we grant parking leave or a lot of it talked about pedestrian access and safety testing and circulation and i realized well geez you know if there's that parking right along the front of the building next to a covered pedestrian walkway it doesn't get any better than that in terms of access but that parking along the green that's no good parking see that has to go because people need to get into and out of the green and also you don't want a visual barrier along with green you want to see a wall of steel like when you're passing down fifteen so my recommendations to them to add a little landscaping with the parking that's right along that covered walkway was also to soften the appearance of the front of that building they're definitely considering the other side of the building the front which initially i wasn't ok with but then you reminded me that that's what the master plan calls for yes that is it was to be the front of all those buildings so so what can we do to try to enhance this through fifteen psi which is sort of the closet for you know the landscaping and then also you guys were making the larger windows above that yes that roof line their big traditional windows opinions on them which i think will tie in with the existing residential architecture in the village so i say this not to not to be not neutral and not to plug for these guys or or not but to share with the room and the board what i've learned from hours of understanding what you're doing so i think in the end that parking where you're showing on the site plan  the end even though it seems like you know sprawl means parking in the front of a building between a building in a road with all that green space there and that parking being plugged in in a compact manner next we're protesting walkway maybe it's maybe it's ok here i don't know so i've really really kind of come around in terms of my thinking about that and i have to throw that out because because i think you always spend a lot of time and i think you know i think reshaping this this square look we talked about to turn this corner of to to remove these spaces do the landscaping which we had already had some here but to add some additional stuff here i mean this just made sense we have to have this in terms of the road regardless for the trucks and everything else so this in terms of stormwater temporal surface things we're being asked to approve a plan that's the plan that you've proposed time jen saying look we're going to do this differently we're going to do that differently is this not the plan that you proposed so over the past few days after because it's taken a while we sat down and tried to discuss some of the the concerns that john had and just really get a better understanding of what the talent's plans were versus what our needs were so i think jens put some of those items in the  and we basically have agreed to all those items we just between the time that jenn's that we've had this discussion and come to these agreements we have not had time to update the plan we would absolutely do that between updating both this plan the landscape plan and frankly the elevations based on what we're talking about with the windows and everything so it's this with those notations so you're so we were saying it was you we should not expect to see this drawing out fine you will not see this drawing it final so it's impossible for us to tell you whether we like to go away whether we would whether we would approve some future plan that you can't see because we don't have it well the only thing we're looking at a preliminary anyway just so that i don't want to go spend a bunch of time making changes on the drawings if that's not acceptable to the board so if those are acceptable in those conditions that jennifer is laid out or except of all to the board then we would then go and incorporate those and bring them back for final approval on with the traffic that we've done that before i'm just trying to make sure that if you if we do a preliminary approval of something then it's clear what the preliminarily approved that we didn't approve preliminarily approve something else absolutely so that's why it's dangerous for us to say here's a drawing but that's not really what we're proposing is not really what we're what i think games are so we have to work we're going to have to be very careful or there's a lot of work to do to write a preliminary report that says what we're talking about doing or not w with but i don't think there is but if he does it we've tried to describe those design here and it again it's a matter of without saying well we feel this parking in that that's not valid because we're trying to come to some sort of an agreement in compromise with the tell based on so i don't think there's a lot of issues ross i'm just trying to make sure you're on a mission to make sure you're clear on you know we have we has this procedural problem all the time where gee it would have been nice if the proposal had been different it would have been clearer but the proposal is what it is and then we're asked to approve or not approve it so it is there six items here and so i don't think there's a lot ok of course if we have the minutes it's not that we drawing i think i think everyone's in agreement here going to want to make it clear we have a procedural problem here we have to do it and that's the way i would propose that's the way the board has in the past don't with these things is by writing it in think there is now we would just retool that landscaping plan based on those being removed so they're already is as you can see it was already a significant amount of may get it and not try to rehash the old hat but this was our justification for even having that parking there anyway but we also understood as jennifer said she was understanding our point we understood her comments a bell on the parallel frankly we were just trying to fit more spaces for what mike really should be on a sidewalk along fifteenth that goes up to meet up with the sidewalk there that you're ok with on that that that access you drive into a street that goes along the green so there should be there should be a sidewalk i think on two sides of that green i mean i don't know how you guys feel that the cross of the cross walk connection just makes right but again so so to tie in with what you know the tower he has plans to do where there are already sidewalks built up if you know i know there are down here how far does it because again keeping all this green space open but then putting in an entire sidewalk from here through to here is not inexpensive i definitely see how they didn't do a sidewalk you know through to here construction so there's no future construction and we already talked about that we can do that the question is you know the regs require certain you know require to be connected that's part of the pedestrian circulation and you know not for nothing this is the that's that's what's in the regs as far as trying to move to have more pedestrian access and connectivity of the sidewalks that's you know a part of that's just was billy tar that part of that falls on the on the developers as things happen so there's a you know that's that's normal that's a part of this that's part of the regs ok that's i beat that to death i think who else i i haven't i don't know about that but i think on the traffic thing what i think we already talked about that that what we were planning on doing was that they are intending on doing  want that because they'd probably like to know ahead of time because theoretically we could wrap of that and the technical review by the next hearing so that's especially true if they're can understand so you're so you're asking a procedural question of if we're going to do if we're going to do that we should decide tonight whether to have looked at the review on either of those aspects because i think in the interest of time it would be good to get them mocked up by the time to find other things ok that's a good point my pet maybe we should we should make that decision after everything's on the table at the end of this meeting before we we'll ask for pot is first of all is there anyone who is here that wants to participate that wasn't here at the very beginning of this meeting so everyone was registered has been sworn in that's the question ok thank you and i want to make sure on that because otherwise it is where people in again ok so will the public kannan if you have a comment or concern or question expressed that to the board not to the apple can don't expect the applicant to answer right now if you have a question we will compile the questions will compile the comments will compile the concerns and then if there are questions we will ask them of the applicants so that's just we're not trying to not have there be a back and forth debate in the room where we want to make sure all the questions can be answered so that's the way that works again in the interest of time try to be concise and everybody only gets one chance to speak and you've got three minutes that's all those are our rules of p kind of the future of this area i would request that the d r be thinking long and hard about granting any kind of waivers more conditional get waivers that move oh wait move this project what the planning commission has passed forward as a rule as a recommendation as like board for what this area how development would happen in the interest of full disclosure i'm on the planning commission and not speaking as a member of the p c as a citizen who lives two doors down from this property and who is excited about the development and excited about it happening and wants it to happen but wanted as somebody said is the anchor of this property's development and i wanted to happen in a way that's go business and to shop there in a regular basis if you comes to our community i recognize the market able to file for development before the form of a school play and these are packed within the village area i am not arguing that the market should be regulated to do everything that a community well the built environment has numerous impacts on these systems if we design a building with parking all around it we encourage people to drive rather than take public transit or walk driving is a good way for us to boxer selves away from our behaviors our community this is not to say we shouldn't have parking at all i have to drive a car when i'm not able to take the bus or walk i drove here to town hall tonight what i am saying is that we should create a friendly environment for interactive community in the riverside area that will attract people from all around the state to visit in the mire our town our town has already passed the time the planning for the former east coal plant has developed what i'm hoping for is that the store decides the plan for the future and develop in a way that will allow the village to develop in a consistent way around it that this store will need that into the field ecosystem it will become a part of area and will agree to design his building in a way that will make the village community more resilient and strong in the future please encourage the owner to try to align his parking design to the floor of a school plan as much as possible madrid is usually an afterthought like going to far too many brand new construction places that have been given adequate thought to special energy will farming just might be required for commercial property now with active duty i also because i've been on many of the rights in the planning over thirty years for these properties and really love  some of the practical decisions that were made more or suggested early on about dickenson becoming two way and my concern always says that one day we will have to have a traffic light or a fifteen and so i always please be specific who are everyone here in the happily camp in terms of the timing of the final hearing i know for i believe you have a forty five day window if you can write for decision man and then the decision will go out in the final i'm hearing i believe cannot even be warned until that time and i think that's your process and i wondered if you might be able to be specific all the way to the traffic  saw the plan that was the p u d plan that showed the roads and the parking lot and even though there is nice pedestrian access right around to the right around the building itself there isn't pedestrian access around the streets and the driveway and so forth and we already know there is a concern about parking but one of the great things about this location is how many people live within a walk distance and that was one of the focuses of the show rats and the cross walk across route fifteen and the vedettes train access on the other side we could alleviate a lot of the parking problems by needing the access some people need to rush into the store and some people would be very happy to have a twenty second or a thirty second walk and if they and if it's a convenient location you're not going to always have a cart and i'm not i'm confused because sometimes the developer talks about a master plan but there really is not in their step plan it's private property the town is not coming the and developing infrastructure and sidewalks on private property and so you want the developer wants to have private streets for volume so sometimes they're looking at it as a big plan and other times they seem to not want to take responsibility for that connectivity or the overall design their big developers they've done lots of stuff before and so it's feels like we're between sometimes thinking about the long term when it works for the planet and then saying oh we don't know anything about the long term when it doesn't work for the plan so i reiterate peter's carmen's and josh is comments that connectivity and the scene access there are hundreds of people that we love to walk to the store every day including kids from the browns or from middle school who have no sidewalks need to have an easement but they have the swale as far as i can tell and i think the they concern is is that the you know this whole riverside area under here and so the impact of this project you know i'm all for you know i'm not go like my observation here isn't nearly as deep as some of the other ones that you've heard but i've got concerns about this notion of putting treat between those nice parking spaces and this covered walkway if you look at things like farm development the shopping in there where they've got trees between the parking spots and the covered walk ways people trek around in the underhill i have a question about dickinson street and i presume the traffic study that was going to be conducted will and dissipate this but with seventy two slash ninety parking spaces in the store there's going to be a lot of pressure because of the accident under fifteen and evidently dickinson street river because it was dangerous and people were trying to scoot across that to shorten their wait on the roof fifteen i'm my question directly is what  issues on dickinson street daytime all the time where one would expect and i would like to reiterate a little bit with phil said living on park street our room gets no love from the jericho side even though we pay amount of taxes to you guys so that's an under hill road i'm aware but you guys are trying to make a community center with this everybody one love one world so you guys got to interrupt interlock a little bit with underhill to make it to make it really work right because we we get all the traffic that nobody because nobody wants to go to jolly so they all come down park street so i worry about any time you guys are going to add some stuff how's that going to get more on some of the questions so i guess i'm going to try to scan down through and and try to try to come back to the so one of the questions was and i think maybe there's actually two questions to combine here  shown any development closer to the building as we understand at some point well this project can support is it but at some point the town's going to need to do something or want to do something with their consent so i don't think that any of this plan  have any impact on those whether it's a traffic circle whether it's a light or whether it's no light at think there was a report a traffic report that came back that recommended dickinson be open to two way with no light so if we leave that up to the traffic the train for another time but we don't have anything that what is the word materials management yes materials weapon i e is there enough room for trash in the new way which includes composition is the question yes for both and obviously more than happy to work i think  think there was also a volunteer for to help with a correct happened but i'm not but it's more for the purposes of this hearing there is a question about whether the president proposal takes into account the room it will take to not only trash and recycling as everyone knows we do now but also compost because that's me and now we have a tory so we have we have two spots we have the enclosed dumpster pet area here that is significantly large enough to handle a good amount of waste and like spend really clear on that based on what is used as our i think this is frankly a little larger for what is needs are but we also have an additional covered storage area full here which is for recycling everything  from cars to boxes and eventually i think mike would be they had a talk to eventually and how that's incorporated in the rest of his business plan but there is additional secured states outside that is both in terms of coverage only the cool space they don't stain on they're close to my employees who it is dump the stuff in there as it goes and then somebody comes and picks it up in the old out back door so between the outside area that we have and then using the same practices that are al where the wall packs are these are your standard wall packs they hide the fixture in the illumination is downcast to the ground so when you're driving by you see the shield you don't see the la wash over the property line this is this will this will fold into the master plan but you know over here on dickinson very little wash very little wash here and here also nothing else on this location application so there will be a sign we are going to submit for a different size and that is again a different part of the town but that is the proposed are shown on the r david to to move that whole car park area it's still trying to get it to accommodate with this new you know plan so the answer is yes i'm not sure where yet because you kind of want to work that with t a plus what dave is going to do for a new car park but we're more than willing to work with him and again i think you know there's a bunch comes to terms of the walking and stuff and you know we want to courage walking but there are certain times like today that people are going to want to drive you know i mean and michael tell you there's a certain because we push that in terms of well you're in a center and there's a certain amount of spaces that are needed and i think we've shown that we haven't come in here and show he wants ninety that we won one hundred spaces i mean i think again i think and brought up a really good example of that green it's why we had those parallel spaces there and you see a lot in some nicer is where you have a park or you have a community area where you're getting that parking along the side of the green in that community area maybe that can get addressed later on  because i do think that's when you leave that green i think some people are going to want to hang out there maybe they don't even go to the market mike's been pretty gracious a find if they want to go there and throw a frisbee with their dog maybe they're going to come over and get a sandwich from me or you know buy something from the help i guess i just what i just as you've made a couple of comments essentially discounting the idea that people might actually walk here and i think what our regulations support very strongly is that we must plan for people to walk here it's not optional so if there was a final plan that had no way for people to walk to the store it would not get approved because if that doesn't meet the regs so there's a there's some there's a lot of information and come up with a final plan and so you shouldn't be misled that they're more perfect because there's because there's been an expressed want for more parking spaces and an expressed want to not spend money on sidewalks that that answer that question law i was going to answer the question of i'm sorry i should approach you often go ahead that's fine but i was just going to comment on the bus stop or the two gallon transportation that we do have an agreement in place and it could be it could break down i could end it any time with a certain amount of notice but i will say here and there and i have worked on this together and that we are going to make sure i'm going to make sure that they have a place to have a bus stop in this area that commandment for the town and try but you know it feels right back in the day to do like five and included a story but i think it's a really good comment that i have to make sure one of those places is over in the n f l site i'm excited to hear people actually look at those because some letters from the fire department has to whether they can serve this proposed development and we've got that letter from from the under il jericho fire department there's a there are a number of comments here i don't need to go over it in detail and you know because this is a commercial development there's a lot of state fire code regulations that apply to this that would here to the interest of time but there in the public record and you'll get it if you haven't already but just to summarize it's essentially things about lighting which we already talked about actually timer spoto cells and sort of talking low energy ok so we have comments from the public who were able to be here tonight from the way this works is that there's public comments that come in the written or oral comments like says and so this counts as participation just so people know and this is it as part of the same public record as the minutes of everyone else's of everyone else's comments bob if there's a question in these we try to bring it out so the nature of it one gets their questions talking about with the preliminary the preliminary approval and remember how you had said that it is a little dicey because we don't actually have a plan that we're reviewing and then i'm saying we can just really condition everything that they have sort of promised that's not shown on the plan now but you know our conditions always tied back to things in the regulations right and some of these some of these promises are really good for overall site layout and design and matching community character and it may not directly correlate to things that we would normally condition you know so we could include those findings of fact i suppose but i find the fact you're going to have to say you know the applicant said that they would be willing to provide such insig until the darker even there was a quote we relate that better and those are the two options right now i think both of those look really good and we have to fine tune the landscaping play a little bit so i guess those  plan before you get there i mean it's always large and it's always hard trying to figure out how to from negotiating with the question is what is the weight of a conditional approval and if they come back with a final plan which everyone agrees is better than what we have tonight that's been conditionally approved in some way  our design limitations our budget limitations the end users you know requirements that he needs and i think this is been good to get some of that you know much of that feedback we would then like to take that and say ok this is still a project that we're we still feel  centrally are doing is rendering of official opinion on some aspects of the project but that one that are known but not  plan approval it may require the suggestion to be divided into two or more phases to ensure the end of the scene availability for the facilities conditions may be imposed upon failing of an application for final plan approval for each phase  guess i guess that's the question is i think i think i hear a motion for a continuance to make sure that we have a drawing that we can refer to answer the question is whether that's required or not and the board can vote to that we want to if we don't have enough information to do that either because we don't know that the drawings or whatever that might be the problem one week we can continue the preliminary hearing to be able to answer those questions and then be given all the documents that you have plus the six points in the stepmom with the exception of the size of an easement that we think we feel that's enough information especially i don't think there's anything that we said we don't  have and i think jennifer's donor of the job of describing these that you know we're comfortable just saying interesting is actually entered in the record again with the exception of that he's a si so the question though the question though on the table is do we need to continue the preliminary hearing or do or do we not need to continue the preliminary hearing so i'm so debate is open on that for the board i nary decision it's christmas is coming we want to hurry up and get that done but nonetheless we have forty five days legally my question is do you know if we can warn them and therefore start the clock on a final even though technical review for those of you are familiar with this term of art to be technical review means that we can ask that an independent expert be to give us a report about that aspect of the project the ones that up that that could apply to this project include storm water and traffic and so the question is is it appropriate if we if we choose to invoke technical review on either of those aspects it would be convenient for the application if we knew that now because then they could begin that process and perth and move in the time when they're  to we're not going to do anything more i think there's enough information there that the traffic makes sense if you don't have a or if you don't have a report or anything yet then we go back to the beginning again then absolutely i would say how can you say you don't need technical review and permits with the trans that traffic study needs to also address the information that we need for final approval if it does that then we don't need to object to the only thing you probably won't have is the comments from  that can be conditional once you get the report because the trans you're going to get you back to fifty i just think that you have a very complicated situation in traffic because you've got tickets and street involved and fifteen and by invoking technical review you can make sure that there weren't certain assumptions made about the traffic and tickets and street that favors the applicant versus you know what really might happen there given an objective point of view like i hate i hate this i'm sorry to say i like well that's the question that's the question and i what we're what we're what we're anticipating is that we're going to get a traffic study that's going to either make sense to us or it's going to or it's going to not make sense to us because it's partly just if you get a bike shop tragedy i don't have the qualifications to do that final we're not going we might need a technical review now for the traffic study so i'm more than fine with if you guys want to do a technical review of the traffic i agree with that i think given up from what i can provide any more information on stormwater traffic i'm more than fined to say that's that's fine we agree with that and we'll coordinate with jennifer to get that technical review done so that when you come to when we come to the final you're going to have your technical review so so so  this is new and this is that glad you said that because that's different information so in other words the technical review in this case would be to do an objectivity test if you will and partly data and if you make sure that others make sure that the