welcome to the westminster town hall forum where for thirty four years we have engaged the public in reflection and dialogue on key issues of our day from an ethical perspective all forms are free and open to the public and information on upcoming events can be found online at westminster forum dot org my name is tim howard anderson on the senior minister at westminster presbyterian church located on nicollet mall in beautiful downtown minneapolis and moderator of the forum it's my pleasure to introduce today's beaker dr amy jo levine is university professor of new testament and jewish studies at vanderbilt university divinity school and the college of arts and sciences she describes herself as a yankee jewish feminist who teaches us who teaches in a predominately christian divinity school in the buckle of the bible belt i think you'll agree that it's an accurate description when we're done with the program she's held office in the society of biblical literature the catholic but because the association the association for jewish studies she's the author co author or editor of numerous books including world commemorate and celebrate the resurrection of jesus following his death on friday when preparing for the celebration of passover she will offer insight into the jewish jesus and provide a deeper understanding of who he monthly if you keep applauding i won't have to talk at all that's marvelous thank you so much for coming out bless that season for those of you who are christian happy passover for those of you who are jewish and for those of you who are academics i hope you're on spring break but what we're going to do when i've been asked to talk for about twenty twenty five minutes is to talk about who jesus might have been to the people who first encountered him as well as who he is to people who encounter him today it seems to me that day for christians jesus has to be more than just a really interesting but i just got to be more than that but that's the job of the church to proclaim he's also got to be that really interesting rabbi he's got to be a first century jew fully human who made sense to other jews in his own time so what i find in looking at jesus is i can recover some jewish history he's a first century jew he's one of ours so what we'll do this morning is we'll talk about in an act of what might be considered historical imagination to try to get a sense of who he was how people heard him why some people followed him and other did not at the end we get to have q and a however it is unlikely that we will all agree on everything the day we all agree on everything is the day the messiah comes or if you prefer it comes back  together the point is that we begin to understand each other a little better and ideally we could then look at our neighbors and say that's not my tradition that she were tradition but i can see truth there and i can see beauty there and i can take inspiration from what you were proclaiming i do not worship jesus lord and savior my hardest completely filled with my own judaism but i find much of what he says to be compelling in other words i don't worship the messenger but i find much of the message of the kingdom of heaven to resonate extremely well and in that case you can say i have a little bit of christ and be all right so what do we know about jesus make myself comfortable take off my shoes and here we go all right what do we know about him well we know that he's a healer and an exorcist in the company you're jesus as the new testament tells us the blind see people possessed by demons find peace the paralyzed to gain full use of their bodies and i think this healing is important because it says that bodies are important for jesus for christianity because they come out of judaism we have to pay attention to bodies it's not just ahead think and it's not just a heart thing it's also a limb thing in antiquity we have miracle and we have medicine and we have magic so how do we know that jesus is engaged in miracles because it comes for free free health care is a miracle because we know that even today medicine in magic cost money but what this tells us is jesus is concerned about human bodies and that also becomes part of the proclamation of the church the church proclaims something called the incarnation the taking on of flesh by the divine and they really meant flesh as we think like  that kind of flesh and the church proclaims the resurrected jesus is in the body jesus does not come back as the friendly ghost he comes back in a body and heals body and this tells me that bodies are important so what does jesus tell me he tells me that i should pay attention to other people's bodies to make sure that they have enough food and they have shelter and they have clothing and they have health care so one of the things that jesus tells me what else is he is it teacher and teachers in the first century debate that's what they do the word israel traditionally means to wrestle with god and one way one does that is to wrestle with the biblical text jesus in gauges and debate with fellow jews that puts him right at the heart of judaism because we have a torah we have a law but then we have to have people figure out what it means the tourist says honor the sabbath and keep it holy do no work on the sabbath and now we have to figure what constitutes work and now we're in the matter of argumentation when it comes to debating the law jesus is not what we would consider today a liberal rabbi or a reform rabbi by the way in judaism when jesus talks about the law he actually makes it more rigorous and what he's doing is what rabbinic tradition calls building the fence about the law you have the law jesus makes another pronouncement to make sure you don't violate the law the law says don't murder jesus says don't be angry with anybody else i cannot murder even though i live in a state where guns are fairly well available i live in tennessee but jesus says don't murder more he says don't be angry because if you're not angry you're less likely to murder the law says don't commit adultery which by the way in judaism requires two witnesses getting convicted a sort of sloppy on your part but  what jesus says is not only don't commit adultery but don't think about it in other words make sure your heart and your head are inclined toward what you're doing he makes the law more rigorous he takes it seriously and that means that christians should take what christians call the old testament seriously the old testament for the church is the grounding of the teachings of jesus and it must be known what else do i know about him he teaches in parables and parables well known to jews at the time there's an old line about religion that religion was designed to comfort the afflicted in to afflict the comfortable and people back then knew that if someone told a parable those stories were not being all statements of the obvious and they were not children's stories so though children can understand them they were designed to do a little bit of heart surgery to to do some personal excavation they tell us what we already know but we simply don't want to acknowledge so when we hear a parable and we think isn't that nice or isn't that so we were probably not listening very well because parables are actually designed to indict and if we paid attention to them they would help us figure out what our major concerns are and what we can let go they would help us better relate to work family better relate to our neighbors better deal with people we would consider opponents or enemies they're absolutely marvelous teaching tools i also know that jesus followers interpreted the parables there's an expression i've learned in tennessee the expression is bless your heart i don't know if this is familiar to you it's a catchall you can say it if you want to express pity if you can say it if you want to express congratulations and you can also say that if you're about to be mildly critical of the church bless  comes in and says after the law sheep therefore i tell you there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety nine who are righteous as if this parable was about repenting in forgiving first century jews on hearing that among other things because she of ninety nine goes missing you pay it tention to that sheep so that when we come to the parable of the prodigal son and were told there was a man who had two sons we have to pay attention to both children after the prodigal comes home and there is rejoicing in feasting and accessorising in fatted calf the very next line is the older brother was in the field and he heard the sound of music and dancing and he called the slave to ask what's happened in the slave says your brother is come back safe and sound in dad's throwing a party they had enough time to call the band and the keytar were and nobody thought to call the older son because there was a man who had two sons and he didn't count and that some of the profundity of the parable if we take it all is about repenting and forgiving that's true if it goes a runner for lessons and i wouldn't want to give them up but that tells us how we could rejoice and be safe but the parable indicts whom have we not counted who have we left to feel as if he or she did not count who have we left out and the parables continue to in tight jesus is also a teacher in that he teaches his disciples to pray he would know not a priest julie she knows the songs he knows regularize jewish person he simply asked of them he says when father our king which means when we relate to god god is not some distant father cut us out like the fellows in mad men who go off and have affairs and drink cocktails first century jewish fathers are hands on connected to the family trustworthy jesus teaches us to hallowed the divine name which jews have been doing since moses had a conversation with a burning bush and he said to the bush  what's your name so that i can tell the people who you are and instead of saying my name is susan her may name is drew or germ i name is manual god says i will be what i will be god is free to be god is a verb god is being so once we think we can put god in a box and say we know everything about that god we have failed to hello the divine name because no one tradition no one church no one religion has a lock on this particular god give us this day or a daily bread in a first century context would have probably meant something like give us tomorrow's bread today because first century jews many of them image heaven image the world to come the olam haba as a great banquet what do you do when you get into heaven you eat and this is why the church meets people at table this is why jesus keeps feeding people this is why eucharistic ministry or communion or the lord's supper is still celebrated we actually know how important our the speeding is from the christmas story as well as the story of the last supper you can fill this in mary gave birth to her first born child and wrapped him in suavely clothes and laid him in a manger think of the french monterey it's a feeding trough will help steer you put the person whom the church will proclaim bread of the world and that's why we need to read the text closely and at the same time what this prayer is saying is we know there are people who are hungry and we know that some of us have food give us the stay our daily bread would be hypocritical if we consumed inside the church and didn't provide food per people who needed it on the outside forgive us our yeah you wonder why jews are confused since dad trespass it turns out that the same aramaic word underlines are three translations so what did jesus ask did he ask for forgiving sins or forgiving trespasses or forgiving debts i think in fact he was putting for people who needed to let go of sin he said let go and for people who are holding dead he said stop holding that debt you have someone else needs you give and that would be helpful as well his followers held him by various titles son of god well but some of them were all children of god that's not actually a special title in early judaism if you look at the gospel of luke the gospel of luke has a genealogy and it starts with jesus and it works its way back to adam and adam is then called the son of god which means according to the christian proclamation following from judaism we are our sons and daughters of god we are all in the image and likeness of god jesus told his followers that they had to love their enemies i can't find that in early judaism he is distinct here in early judaism if our enemy is hungry we have to feed the enemy if our enemy loses a donkey we have to return it we can't mislead the enemy jesus takes those laws one step farther and says you have to love them i think that's consistent with the teaching that we're all in the image and likeness of god because it means i have to look at the face of my enemy a terrorist a person who would want to kill me rather than live near me somebody on the opposite sports team from which i am rooting and i have to be able to see the face of god in that person as well jesus is consistent with that his followers proclaim to messiah but in the first century there was no messianic job description it's not as if somebody had gone up to the temple tacked on a list saying make sure mother is a virgin at the time of your conception here people walk on water raise the dead dog come back ascend there's no messianic job description so what were people thinking about jesus for some of them his jewish followers they were convinced that he would bring about the messianic age the time when there is no more war no more disease no more de everybody is resurrected from the dead most first century jews believed in resurrection we can see that on the lips of jesus friend martha who says i believe in the resurrection on the last day you've probably heard of the these are frequently identified in the new testament is the sad you see is those who say there's no resurrection that makes them the outliers or as i am want to say in the classroom they don't believe in the resurrection and that's what made them sad  for early judaism the messiah came with the messianic age and the messianic age included general resurrection of the dead jesus resurrection was proclaimed and people waited for everyone else to come back and they didn't and gradually because that messianic promise was not fulfilled the followers of jesus began to do window among the jewish community even as they began to rise among the gentiles first century jews already believed in resurrection first century jews already had the bible but for the broader gentile world jesus represented hope he represented resurrection he represented forgiveness of sins he represented a sense of a better world and a better fellowship was he lured in terms of those questions here historians stop we cannot prove the resurrection we cannot disprove it it exists in one's heart my major concern in the classroom is not actually what my students believe but what they do based on that belief how does believing in jesus make them change for those people who want to argue using christian apologetics that you can prove that jesus is lord and savior it simply can't be done because if we attempt to make a proof or engaging in category confusion religious belief is not logic par cause the crosspost scandal and of paoli the idea that a jewish carpenter would be savior of the world is a tough market sell if you think about it but people were convinced of it in their hearts so the best way of thinking about this belief issue is to think belief is based in your heart it's not based in your head faith is based on grace the comes from the outside to which one responds it's not based on academics it's not based on i q and it's not based on how much you read in other words faith is like a love it is not like seduce go if it were likes a ducal everybody would get the right answer if they were just smart enough but faith is like love and what makes sense to one person makes absolutely no sense to somebody else and i can prove that because i can tell you about some of the people my children have dated where the academics comes in as once the faith is in place then historians can say look at jesus look at how extraordinary he was if i think he's extraordinary and i'm not a christian how much more so should christian c g just how marvelous just how inspirational his teaching was and finally what then happens regarding the final judgment and what do we do about this when it comes to what happens to us after we die i am not yet clued in and do not want to be for quite a while but here's how i imagine things so far i've been talking about history for a final comment this i made up after a very very long and happy life i die i find myself at the pearly gates two things to know about the pearly gates first the word for pearl in greek is margarita so you can work with  and second the pearly gates are wide open because i don't think heaven is a gated community standing at the pearly gates to st peter you can tell he's peter because he's got a little rock insignia it's a little bit of bible humor because peter really means rocky it's a nickname and peter says to me a j welcome to heaven you can get your heart in your halo here and your wings in your slippers at the next table and i said peter great i have questions like can you speak greek and what happened to your wife and who won the food fight that you had with paul and antioch and bridget wander off to at the end of the book about x and peter says look lady i'm on duty now pick up your excess or reason we'll talk after dinner it's fabulous standing behind me is a fellow who in his earlier life was a television a banjo list you can tell his hair is perfect his teeth the perfect his pants have a crease you could get a paper cut if you touched them perfect and he has managed to find in the heavenly into room a copy of the king james version of the bible with the words of jesus written in red letters he also could have found a copy of the jewish publication society version of the to knock the by the by did the complete works of mary baker eddy and a variety of other religious texts because this is my image of heaven and he says to peter excuse me peter i don't mean to make trouble my first day in heaven but did not our lord and savior say right here in the gospel of john in red letters that he is the way the truth and the life and how i was the jew he points at me is getting in him peter wait here and he comes back in just a few minutes with a fellow who is maybe about five four five five with dark piercing eyes the right into your soul and with holes in his palms because as we know from the gospel of john the resurrected jesus still bears the wounds of the cross and peter says lured we have another one give this man credit of his convictions he's going for it he says lord all my life i proclaimed you to be savior i've tried to bring people because bill i've tried to really lead them to baptism are you telling me that i was wrong in jesus says my son i do appreciate your efforts and know you're not completely wrong but if you flip back over to the gospel of matthew which does come first in the canon i make it very clear that it's not those who say were bored but those who do the will of the father feeding the hungry clothing the naked visiting people in prison giving a cup of water to the least of these it seems to me that my daughter a j has done the best she could with the talents that she has and the fellow says wait a minute that's works righteousness you're saying she's on her way into heaven getting into heaven is supposed to be a free gift she says exactly so flip back over to the gospel of john where i make it very clear that i am the way let me repeat i am not you and not your narrow way of reading scripture and not you nearest sense of salvation and grace i say she gets in do you want to argue and the last thing i recall seeing before going off to get my heavenly accessories is jesus handing the man a kleenex to help get the log out of his eye you have the church wants to proclaim jesus as lord and savior it should because that's what the new testament says if the christian wants to make jesus the gate keeper that's fine with me too because the jesus i know from history the rabbi the teacher the member of the perfect people of israel this first century jew you be infinitely more concerned with how i love my knee hurt and how i love the stranger and how i love my gawd then in the particulars of my theological belief what finally can we say about jesus he cares about what we do he insists that we show mercy and compassion to everyone he's a fabulous jewish teacher and in the church he's more than that thank you the senior minister here at westminster presbyterian church and i'm the moderator of the forum our guest today is scripture scholar dr amy jo levine while the asters collect questions from the in house audience i'd like to invite the radio audience to join us at westminster church for our forum on thursday april sixteenth at seven p m when author and journalist craig bernstein will be interviewed by n p r editor at large gary itan on the topic can the system work politics government and media our events are always free always open to the public further information can be found at our website westminster forum dot org and now dr levine if you would return to the purple i will present the questions from our audience person has to do with the political nature of jesus as we read about him in the gospels and the importation of a political jesus into the twenty first century comments i think the bible should be used for political purposes because i'm inclined to use it for my political purposes i don't see why we would not use this as a resource and here i'm looking both at the scriptures of the synagogue and the scriptures of the church which include the scriptures of the synagogue so i have no problem bringing jesus into political discourse the other part that i would bring in along with the specifics of whatever laws we want to make or whatever policies we want to debate is i would want to make it clear that we should not demonize people on the other side i think too often today we've substituted harsh rhetoric for actually listening to someone and it often turns out that the person with whom i so vehemently disagree actually has some pretty good points to make so how do we bring the bible when we bring it in as we have always done the bible has been cited on issues of war and slavery and economic policy and immigration reform why shouldn't we use it final point about this jesus tempted by satan and in the extended temptation narratives in the gospel of matthew and luke  her bible verses that jesus and jesus her was bible verses back it's the first example i have of proof texting this tells me that the bible can be used benevolently but the bible can also be used by satan so i need to make sure to use the cliche that the bible was a rock on which i stand rather than a rock from to do damage i think jesus helps us with that let's remember one thing most christians get wrong about jesus oh my well i want to be interesting to do a pew poll on that but it depends upon the christian heaven forbid that all christians would think alike there are many things that christians often get wrong about jesus there are many things they often get right the point that i hear from some of my students are people in churches with whom i've worked that jesus wanted to do way with the law he basically said don't worry be happy in the rest of it was an important it was extremely important i hear that jesus came to end judaism and begin christianity no indication of that i think where they really get jesus wrong is they know what he said but they don't act on it it's good we can stop there as i like to say that will preach yes it will getting getting we have a number of questions about the political nature of jesus being used today for instance in some of the state legislators that are debating laws that are purported to be for religious freedom and the name of jesus is brought in as one who stands in one direction or another reason the current cultural issues can you comment on that yeah so we're talking about things like the indiana law and the one pending in georgia and probably a number of other states sure should everybody be treated equally i think jesus did think so and that would be part of his own tradition the book of commands not only that you love your neighbor as yourself but the very same chapter of leviticus this is the because nineteen goes on to say you shall love the stranger who dwells among you because you were strangers in the land of egypt which i think ought to be cited a little bit more on immigration reform but that's another subject yet should everybody be treated equally absolutely on the other hand and here i'm trying to be as sensitive as i can to people who are sponsoring some the uses of this law i don't find it helpful to be deliberately provocative and try to force people to do something that takes them out of their religious comfort some because i don't think that's being merciful to them  either so should people be allowed to not get allowed to refuse to give a contract to something i don't think that's helpful i don't think that you should refuse to give a contract to somebody who's gay any more than you should because of that person's religious belief or ethnic group or racial identity on the other hand i would want people who recognize the religious proclivities of some of these folks not to get in their face and to tell them that they're bad and to tell them that they're bigots they're trying to live out their faith as best as possible so the communication needs to be one of grace and compassion rather than provocation other muslims doing with jesus a thing that you as a jew are doing and if so who are some of the  speakers the writers reza aslan comes to mind who's spoken here at the forum others you can point us to i'm not an expert in islam because i cannot read arabic and i will not speak professionally on a tradition if i can't read the material in the original in graduate school after doing the hebrew and the greek and the aramaic and the coptic in the syrian the german the french and the latin and the smattering of italian i needed when my professor said it's time to learn arabic i said no it's  not but there are you moms across the country and indeed across the world that have spoken out against terrorism that have spoken out against some of the atrocities that we're seeing now that are attempting to work for peace including was you know by had a chance template just a small chat with him which i do want to cation but i'm not getting the bible changed and i do you has developed among some liberals within the church protestants and catholics  invented feminism former president jimmy carter and his bible tapes on the epistle to the fusions suggest that first century judaism is comparable to the taliban and jesus stands over and above it not so and that's just  mischaracterization of early judaism so what do we know about jewish women in the first century what actually turns out that the new testaments one of the best resources that we have they have access to their own phones a lady with a hemorrhage she spent quoting to luke chapter eight support jesus because jesus is not taking any money for the work that he does they have their own funds they own their own homes martha welcomed him into her home the house church in jerusalem is  home of mary the mother of john mark they show up in the synagogues like the bent over lady they show up in the temple like anna miri jesus mother of the widow and all those children who proclaim jesus is the beginning of the passion narrative they're there with mommies and women caregivers i'm pretty sure they have freedom of travel as mary visits elizabethtown the women follow jesus from galilee in the north down to judea and the south and where is the women who remain faithful  cross when the men high tail it out of their jewish women followed jesus not because they were all pressed and suppressed and repressed and consequently d pressed by judaism they follow jesus for the same reason that their husbands and their fathers and their brothers and their sons followed him because they found his message of the kingdom of god compelling because they found healing in his presence and it may have been that women who were apart from standard domestic arrangements divorced says widows never married women it's possible that they found a special place in his group jesus sets up what is in effect a new family he talks about people leaving their father and mother and according to luke their wives and their children and joining him he says who are my mother and brothers and sisters and the nato family is outside and he looks around at the people in the house where he's teaching in says here are my mother and brothers and sisters maybe women who don't have families found a new family with him in that group of people who have particular boil to it's very difficult to name a married couple with the exception of mary and joseph who are together and jesus speaks with them the two on the road to a may is maybe so when you get to easter drop in a woman on that road and the other parents of gyrus and his wife the parents of the dead girl all the other women seem to be single what does this tell me about women in churches today if the followers of jesus represent mother and brother and sister it means that everybody in the church is part of the same family that's actually what baptism means and it means that if somebody in the congregation is missing from a service you get on the phone and you say well where are you and it means when somebody walks in that your mother or your brother or your sister you say how little you sit next to me rather than you're in my seat and you make sure that that person has a place to go after the service because who knows whether that person has a place for lunch or the funds for everybody's in the same family so women around jesus their patrons there are people who have been healed there are people who feel free to argue with him i love that which means there are people from whom he takes advice and there are people who cared about him and whom he cared about let's talk about another another first century jewish male apostle paul to what extent do you think paul reflects accurately the teachings of jesus particularly  access what we have is the oral tradition that eventually got written down jesus spoken aramaic the new testament is written in greek and i don't know how much additional material beyond what jesus actually said the evangelist bless their heart added him it's same thing with part we don't have direct access to him we have the letters that the church chose to preserve so who knows what else we're missing in who knows whether the church added on some verses some lines it wouldn't surprise me that some letters were moreover it's possible that paul changes his mind further parlors writing to individual congregations he's not writing to the church universal which means when we're reading pas letters we're reading somebody else's ma and what's relevant to run church might not be relevant to another in first corinthians he suggests that women should not teach or have any authority there to be silent but in the epistles of the romans he recognises a woman who was a deacon her name is phoebe and a woman who's who is an apostle her name is junior and clearly there you are teaching so what do we do with paul i think it helps to put him in his historical context to recognise that he is writing hoc letters to specific congregations to recognise that he might have changed his mind over time and to recognise with paul we're only getting half of the story we do not know what he was directly told we do not know if he is reflecting the problems in those target church is accurate and we do not have access to him so a best bet is to read paul but read part through the lens of history and in the church through the teachings of the holy spirit so that we're not just stuck on a couple of verses but we get the entire bible as a matter of teaching there's the work of the jesus seminar which is a exact day when jesus might have said that makes sense to you as a scholar or as a person of faith should it make sense to one of us ah well i'm not a member of the jesus seminar but the founder of the seminar a brilliant man named robert funk who died a few years ago used to teach on the vanderbilt faculty i have his old office which is really quite nice what the jesus seminar did and this is now twenty thirty years ago brilliantly is open up the are keen world to biblical studies to the people at large so that anybody in the pew anybody with a library card or now anybody with access to amazon can simply read stuff and say here's what people are saying in the academy and for a number of people in the churches that kind of wonder gee if their pastors and priests knew all that stuff how come it wasn't making its way from the pulpit to the pew so by weaponing up questions about jesus questions about how do we understand the miracles how  understand the incarnation and the resurrection how do we understand his teachings about politics or women or law i think that was brilliant but the jesus of the jesus seminar isn't my jesus th jesus of the jesus seminar is not terribly jewish he's much more universal the jesus of the jesus seminar is not expecting the kingdom of god immediately to break in in the sense of the change in the world as we know it i think jesus was so what does the jesus seminar do for us it opens up the terms of the debate and i think anybody who wants to talk about jesus and open up and say here's what i see in the bible and i'm going to read it for myself rather than have somebody from the puppet tell me what to think i think that's brilliant right israel and therefore because there's not enough room to expand settlements so that when jesus comes back they'll be there to greet him good that we need to get them out there so that he can come back to my friends who are christian zionists who believe that i've told them i'm personally holding up the show because i'm not moving to israel my husband has an allergy to sesame products the comus would kill him within about ten minutes but christian zionists i mean really the christian broad some christian zionists support israel because they look at is look at it as a democracy in the middle east they look at it as america's ally a number of christian scientists or what might be called america hers they believe because genesis says god says to abraham i will bless those who bless you that it would be good to bless abraham's descendants because that's what god wants them to do some of them look at israel as a b ark against increasing islamicize ation were against questions of what iran might do some of them want to support jews in israel because jesus was a jew when there's a thank you when reciprocity some of them remember the horrors of world war two when think that a debt needs to be paid there are a variety of reasons why christian zionists are concerned about israel there are also a number of christians linus who are concerned about the palestinians so it does not help us to start stereotyping to be in favor of one group the state of israel does not mean to deny the concern for what i would call the legitimate rights of the palestinian people to self determination so then what do we do about this i'm a permanent consultant for an organization called americans for peace now a p and i would encourage you to look at their website it pianists the sister organization to the is really group organization in israel i'm also a zionist i believe that jews have a homeland like other people have a homeland and the land of israel is the jewish national homeland as we know not only from the bible but from archaeological remains i also believe that that's the homeland of the palestinian people and then we have to figure out how to but two people live together if we can work that one out i'll probably need a little bit more than three minutes but we start by educating ourselves and listening to all sides and not shutting people down and not stereotyping but listening to the legitimate voices of people over there who also want peace and who are hurting really hurting because it hasn't occur in recent surveys on the religious attitudes and beliefs of americans the category none of the above is the fastest growing how do you as a woman of faith or how do we as people of faith enter into meaningful conversation with those who claim to be none of the above or perhaps even people of no faith at all atheists right because again faith is not a matter of academics so coming up with an apologetic saying you've got to believe in god is really not helpful and to say you want to believe in god in jesus because if you don't you're going to try and help is usually ineffective evangelism it's not helpful because then people get scared and god becomes a bully and that's not terribly helpful what i find in terms of  get out and you do it so you make sure that faith is not just a once a week thing to do it between eleven and twelve on sunday morning and if you put a twenty in the collection plate which is not a bad idea i would go  right direction the i pod so i wanted i wanted to end on a high note out but that might not be the best way of doing good because if you begin with the already it's usually a nonstarter i would begin with the bible in part because i know it better in part because people are familiar with terms like prodigal son or good samaritan or adam and eve and then say you know this is not only great literature this is fabulous difficult teaching this is cultural grounding this is material that if you read it you would probably be a better person for it if the faith comes later traumatic but if not at least you will have read a good book and had a decent conversation and that's a nice way of starting that the category none of the above includes many of our children and for jews it tertian only passing that the jew or tradition on the children is at the core of the jewish experience how do you advise those of us whose children may be part of none of the above it's certainly possible that my children will fall under that category in terms of theism in terms of particular belief but in judaism today in traditional judaism you're a jew if your mother is a jew there's nothing you can do about it and in the reform movement you're a jew if either parents a jew when you're raised in a jewish household so i mean we've already got them back to some is helpful here for those churches that baptized little children or baptized infants what my husband and on trying to do is to show them what jewish values are to show them how jewish ritual functions and how beautiful it is to show them that they can debate with their own tradition because there may be certain things in the tradition they do not like that is not a good reason to leave that's a good reason to stay and fight for what you do like to encourage them to be members of a congregation where they will feel welcome rather than feel like their fifth wheels single people have a hard time in a number of congregations to provide them inspiration again to get on the phone and say where were you to let them know that regardless of what they believe because again i cannot control that how they act is extremely important to me and what my husband and i have tried to do with our  children is in call kate in them jewish values which are basically the same ascription values you love your neighbor as yourself if you see your neighbor doing something wrong you rebuke the neighbor that's called at the stranger as yourself and you try to act the way you think god would want you to act because you two are in the image and likeness of god we do our best and more we do our best to model  weekend and a happy easter and may the season be inspirational to you and as you celebrate your holidays recognize that the lord and savior you proclaim was also a first century jew and for jews to recognize that as well so that we can recover not only our common roots but also be able to celebrate our differences we're part of the same tree we're just different branches and unless we're both familiar with that commonality we come up a little bit short in each way thank you very much