to each of the invoices including both the paid and the unpaid invoices right that's correct and then there was a c d a penalty with respect to sixty five to sixty sixty two sixty s that when the contractor says hey this was all done with the knowledge and permission of the government to the extent they're talking about the maritime administration it appears to be true do you can test the as a hypothetical scenario this wasn't a two page microsoft word document in which they sort of laid out some thoughts about how they might chuck a contract and this was roughly seventy five page proposal document that included far certifications negotiation experts occasion this was lead that we had to find that there was fraud with respect to the s b a as opposed to marriage since marriage was aware of what was going on i know you don't agree with that but let's just assume that hypothetical proposal was prepared with the idea of sending it to them would that be sufficient i'm happy to answer your question with reference to the s b a i do want to be clear though that the a finding of fraud is unnecessary here this is from looking at the package that and this was an attempt to get around the s v s requirements as to the size of the contract you know there is nothing that's basically done mean that the fraud is that and then the the the misleading the thing that causes the liability of the false claims act as a fact as they were trying to enron estes requirements most of the size of contract right that certainly would demonstrate if you ask what the subject matter because if america are the only contracting party those cases would be implicated i guess what i was asking was whether that whole issue could be avoided because the s b a was the technically contracting party and there's a specific finding by the federal claims that the that the small business administration was not aware of  representation to the to the small business administration you have to find that they actually got the documents and the problem is the record doesn't show they actually got caught well not necessarily or are we respectfully disagree i mean right i'm sorry i didn't follow your own question i say since the document was on the record doesn't show the document was submitted to the small business administration that if we're going to sustain the stas penalties we have to sustain it on the ground that there was a false statement itself sort of not whether it's actually communicate or actually has an impact on the ultimate decisions not to make it would have to be communicated doesn't not necessarily not known not that there is no particular case there's an absence of any evidence in the record that the s b a knew what was going on that's correct that being the case that there is only knowledge we have here ri that number with that had been generated by very dine was used in montana three itself and ultimately s b a signed a contract extension that used those numbers why a hundred twenty seven quacks instead of forfeiture but i'm awarding very dined the amount of the invoices to sixty two to sixty four up to the amount of money that was available under the contract  boys she awarded the amount of the invoices up to the level of funding but based on because funding was applied based on work orders she took each work order and when  level of funding was exhausted on that work order that was all that was awarded on the invoices relative to that work order but it seems to me that she said that the pending moves to sixty to sixty seven were forfeited for three million it whether it will merit certainly knew my clients certainly hoped that it was going to be greater than three million american would do whatever they had to do to get the approval to give whatever amount of business they knew they sought to give are but if there are unclean hands what we have is here the contractor being penalize for one hundred twenty seven invoices and eleven thousand dollars apiece to create a windfall for marriott effectively married gets the services for free and correct correct in and there's not a single case which before has ever allowed one where our congress been a special pleading fraud correct i don't know the only case from this court that we had agree there we go but i wouldn't but then then the question becomes is does the contractor here to the contractor be the only ones that's penalize if they're sure maybe somebody if you go to jail well that there was no bribery here and so what you had was a violation of the regulation at best stand but no the court found no there was no food there was nobody got paid  fit anymore within the s b a we're going to do it anyway right and your client knew that too well certainly was hopeful of that yes so please press made a proposal that would allow them to do that correct and so the other point that on the two hundred twenty seven that we brought up that was brought up earlier that i wanted to address was that you had here as you said  suffer penalties however in this instance they didn't have to cancel the contract they had they knew a year before they ever exercised the first option under my twenty three that they were going to need for more than three million dollars ok they could have gone out got another contractor done to other contractors got five other contractors they chose not to and then even after they exceeded the three million dollars they knew that they had exceeded it and they exercised the next option and the option after that and the option after that  king well they well they certainly didn't stop until the i presented that report but they certainly knew all along because then they said well we can't pay you the award fee so let's renegotiate let's let's come up with a new  number because we have to do that in order to pay you the award fee so i did want to reserve some of my time well don't worry we've got more questions oh ok we'll give you something well ok well in any event  so the on the hundred twenty seven in which is the question is at what point you've got sufficient government knowledge if you want to save every dying committed of f c a violation in submission of the proposal took a fine and  then you know does the they the government's own knowledge of the only government agency with which we dealt under the contract which was married once s b a signed off on modifications that's the that's one hundred twenty seven invoices eleven thousand bucks a pop right correct and the government wants man the quantum merriment right so they want not to have to pay the quantum our money exams and still a don't have to pay that and the government claims that the when you made her earlier armin's in fact the humor of your client is really being all your money is being taken away and look to me like there was probably quite a lot of lying left on the table that your client has to keep well after mach twenty three to pay to pay people of course but there was a million there was a green a total for her to would mean every single penny that the government ever gave you you have to give back correct how much did the government give you and how much is left of the after if you paid the penalties that are involved here it really payments the payments totaled approximately twenty nine million so if you took the that was there and then there's one million invoices that have not couple million dollar you don't get twenty five million dollars in profit because you've got employees expense you've got of out of pocket expenses and you've got to you've got sub contractor expenses so it's not like we had that he put twenty five at the numbers that were sent over there and a lot comes up to one hundred three million right that's right and the numbers say i say coach it's ok exactly and that's and the numbers that they added up the number that they had in front of them were number that were generated contract that was signed by in one thousand nine hundred five fi sta maritime administration and vera di and has a schedule in there which clearly shows that the contract expected at least was we gave him the maritime ministration a scenario for three million dollars right they didn't know i didn't make up and no they didn't make up the numbers although they say they still had to they still had to give s b a number that was under three million regardless of what the they what they gave s b a was a breakdown of the which was close to our numbers but not exactly but in any event again it was what you had was married dealing with