the parent skills that actually be in favor of the parent and the only way for the grandparents overcome that presumption is to show that there would be some sort of are either physical or emotional or mental to the child because of this refusal of this so instead of their being just simply a best interest then it was ultimately came down to if you were related to the child and there were some great guy in the family who were going to get visitation under this new statu the fact that you're never going to get to know your grandparents and it's not the fact that you won't be able to develop a relationship both the trial court  is left with in terms of what to do with it graeme is now our contention in this case why the judge was against the manifest weight of the evidence is that all we did show the type of harm that was work we can change in two thousand and seven but i think the court has incorrectly stated that there was a common law prior to two thousand and seven do you think that that there's  it's our contention that when you apply those factors that you will come up with the opposite conclusion that was reached in this case i sinned of the father was asked why he didn't want to  because there has to be standing in there has to be at least to show holding of this of a presumption that the presumption was overcome but i don't know that we why i do know there's a record drug issues and then there was an overdose which actually there was a conviction of murder for so there there was a back and forth between the mom and the father were they didn't get along and there was sort of a grid in  family and as is often the case whether there's drug issues or whether one parent moves far away or whether there's a gap there the other grandparents or a grandparent or sometimes another family  in and fills that emotional void or emotional need this is not a case as in when versus ankle where it's you know like the child is never going to get to know this side of the family or this blog like this is never going to be recognized which is normal and i think a lot of people find important but i think the courts have explicitly said that's not enough this is a case where the grandmother before you today was before the trial  saying i have almost was like parental role of these children's lives we have that type of relationship and she laid it out year by year by year where overnight where it would be at her house with the child because they have no no legal right to it every night how can they possibly shut that well in this particular if they don't see the child for months and this particular case i think questions that would be presumed then provide what if anything can we presume by the fact that the texts to the equipment if you yell when there's no financial bear are going to be placed on we assume anything i needed to be discovered needed to be positive i think school records person or most daycare records even see how the children are adjusting are they haven't repeated incidents at school are they are they showing signs of acting now i mean those are all things that would indicate that something's not quite going on right with the child mind if they're fighting if they're being disrespectful if their grades are suffering  numerous types of things along those lines is certainly the hearers of the children the teachers of the children that information could have been requested and they put it in the provided deposition the evidence or even if you strike that and just look at whether or not there was ever any kind of overcoming meeting the burden of proof that there is some sort of emotional or physical or mental harm to these children there's nothing that  and if we assume that is true then the trabant were certainly should have considered the relationship between the grandchild and the grandmother and the particular instance if you look at all of the facts that were presented it's as follows father's children were born september two thousand and two and november two thousand and three i the time the second child was born there had been complete deterioration in the relationship between a father and the fifth year of this particular fisher testify that she visited the children for hours at a time two to three times per week when they were infants after that mother moved away picked up and left with the kids in kids when the mother would bring them both to keep her house and were living with her during that period of time and again we're only talking about the mother having the children a few days a month and somewhere in there she got dispen never happens children living with followed throughout this period and a few days or months they were actually staying with the grandmother and their biological mother in grandmother's home that was it let's look at the factors here of the mental and one of the the other things i will point out the mother been in the getting apartment on her own moving away from the fisher's home in february of two thousand and seven toward yet a new poll of two thousand and eight what is very significant is that petitioner testified her in the law it's significant also to point out the fish and i had numerous opportunities she said that she was able to communicate with my clients  there's a difference if there had been a prior relationship between the grandparent and the child and if there had not been that relationship i think so and what facts come down to in this case why it's still there still is because i don't grandmother does not love the grandchildren but what it comes down to on the statute whether or not there was a substantial enough relationship or the be some sort of mental physical or emotional harm to those children as a result of that this that visitation  that expanding something to that extent based on the relationship although it was a limited relationship based on a limited relationship an expansion of rights and showing yes there would be harm as a result of that limited simply because of the fact that you have an adult dispute with a grandparent i think that's actually the crux of the absence of why we have a statute like this once again in the but but what you're going to get is you're going to get an investigation into the case interviewing people interviewed with the children and song i have written that are you kidding all of father because he did not agree to it when there is the requirement no no i guess you can't fault him it's a trial tactic it's something that's available to him to object to