have well spence from the planning department and michael hopper from corporation council good morning and with the staff the staff today's legislative analyst gordon molina and committee secretary paul in martin's and we'll get to the district offices and in a minute all right members today we have two items on our agenda p c twenty one which is amending the community plan requirements relating to land use designations and p c ten amending the comprehensive zoning ordinance relating to short term rental homes in a moment we're going to accept public testimony but i did want to to address p c twenty one we did get we all got a lot of testimony and wanted to make sure that everybody is aware that this bill is not ever intended to take away the voice of the community and we're trying to find where in the document that that has raced some concerns and one of the  testifiers via e mail has tell told us where they're concerned so we will discuss that immediately i mean when we get going into the thing and if there are concerns that it might take away the voice of the community that will be removed from the bill this bill is not intended to take away the voice of the community is intended to clarify some discrepancies so i just wanted to make sure everybody's aware of that and when you testify please come up you're going to have me decide in the back if you can either before or after you testify and you have your testimony is limited to the items listed on the agenda today and pursuant to the rules of counsel each testify will be allowed to specify for up to three minutes prior to him will have only three minutes today because we have over twenty some testifiers at this point and we don't know how many we have on the district offices when testifying please state your name and any organization you may be representing please it's important to state your name even though we call you by name sometimes members of the audience can't hear or the members can't hear and we like to keep track and also it needs to be right when i call your name please come on up and then i will call somebody the next person in line and just kind of hang over to the side so we can get through this so we can get into the meat of the meeting right first to testify  walter really followed by patricia hoskins contrary to the chairman just said there's a really big concern about taking away our voices one nine hundred eighty s we had our own planning commission we work really hard because things are happening on  control over so we're really concerned about this bill and any erosion of the planning commission or the community plans is not a very good idea and there's going to be an uproar if anything is our island participates we're very concerned about our natural resources we're very concerned about protecting many things on mulcahey we very proud that we are very different from most islands and we want to keep it that way so real vetted process that happens not just coming here and saying i want to change it so i want to change that but make sure that everybody is involved in any kind of a change especially the community  and this kind of a change where the zoning is going to be placed ahead of our community plans makes us really really nervous and if you're going to do that then they need to be a really big process including any a s so that everybody can participate in what's going to be the impact so i don't know how to see it in words but boy what is harry's on edge on this one so please don't  any kind of erosion on the power of the people in this process and we want to make sure that we protect that process is the only way ondine in a mall economy that we can really figure out and participate in our preferred future and please don't take that away thank you mr reddy members any questions to the testifier i have one mr reddy thank you if you could just let me know where in the bill because i am truly concerned about that zoning being having precedence over the community plans when we feel the community and the intent of the community should reflect that not the other we ar a welcome and aloha to the committee members my name is patricia haas ken i live full time in key hay and i just have a short saying to say public trust is critical and how can the public trust you when you're presenting conflict signals the public created the community plan at this time you are considering amending these plants you have not given enough widespread advertisement or public notification that you intend to do this using the newspaper or radio or television so more people could respond it appears to me as a retired resident that the proposed amendment is not for the benefit of the general public but it's made for a specific developers by putting the zoning ahead of the community plan a great deal of key hay would suddenly become h two and instead of looking forward to having building next to you a residential size unit you're going to have towers and that is why i'm concerned so i am asking that they doesn't say that anywhere in the bill ok thank you next to testify is mike moran followed by lloyd f chair a couch and committee members mike moore in for the key a community association and strong opposition to item p c twenty one over the past few months case she has testified before the planning commission on a few items of south maui concern into meetings in april we observed various county planners or for both new and seasoned commissioners and orientation on numerous segments of the county process which we found very beneficial to are concerned public one portion in particular has planner gina farmer explain the importance of basing commissioners decisions on the general and the regional community plans and pose the question is the general plan a guideline or war her answer is it's both and she advised community plans zoning and subdivision ordinance ordinances shall conform to the general plan now we see a bill introduced this morning making the general plan and community plans subject to zoning thus eliminating a segment of the plans as a law and reducing it to just a guideline we ask why what is the motivation to take this action why got the power of these plans when volunteer segments of the community diligently work on for weeks months and sometimes years is it to reduce the community influence and how government is run while there has been no media attention to the meeting on this topic that we have observed why have i president of the k c a received more public input from one membership and the general community on this single item than any other in the past thirty months unanimously calling on  this bill chair south now he is proclaiming loudly no to this proposal the smore name and while i have a little bit of time left don to address the specific question you're asking where in the bill we'd like to as a community association or volunteers unpaid like to remind the governing officials that this is a challenge for for most folks to keep up with every individual bill even as a group association we struggle when there are nine committees there is this planning commission urban design review and you have to look at the website almost daily to to just see what's coming up next and when we got this notice well at the doesn't give you the bill now you have to take another step you have to make contact with somebody to get a copy of the bill and read it this generally is way beyond most unpaid volunteer individuals or organizations and those of us who can come give a piece and then we sit and listen the discussion to find out what's going on ok hala thank you so are we didn't have the beeper on our make sure we get the beeper on so let you know so members any questions of the testifier thank you thank you lloyd for shell followed by mark type morning i think we can all agree that the altering the maoris general plan is a serious thing and changes to the general plan require deliberation the purpose of the bill reads that the council finds that the community plans quote create numerous nonconforming uses within the county and quote how does corporation counsel michael hopper know this since council hasn't met on this matter was their deliberation outside the planning committee we all have a right to know when did this and other findings referred to in the bill occur if chair does not know then we need to appoint an independent cat special counsel to investigate so that the people will know how the government is functioning in the people's chamber will you do this mr couch continue the importance of the community plans developed by the people is as many have said already today is central to our form of government and is required by state law to protect the people because this is true passed council chair danny material stated in session on march fifteenth two thousand and twelve that the island plan quote causes a lot of alarm because the communities really should be the driver the issue of which plans the community plans of the island plan has authority he says  always a scary one and i already see conflict from the get go i think we're doing it backwards i think the community plan should have been done first and quote meaning that the island plan should have conformed to the community plans because they can they were created lawfully it is putting the shoe on the wrong foot to say that the community plants must conform to other plans this bill is a fiction to work around the problem created by adopting changes to land  trees outside of the state's laws regarding the profound importance of the community advisory committees the signature by the executive branch in the name of corporation council is meant to provide legality to that which is not legal his signature adds to frustrate what we know is true and good about the people's voice in our democracy perhaps we don't need a council and the election process the mayor can create laws by lawyers and put them forward while the rest of us look on what is the purpose of the council when the lawyers can create laws they think are legal and the same session mr harper said to the council members quote unless the community plans are amended to stay in full force in effect even though the island plan is adopted the adoption of this plan will not result in any changes to the community plans clearly mr hopper is sitting on both sides of the fence and an investigation is warranted this bill should not leave the planning committee thank you thank you mr fyshe l members any good morning my name is mark hyde and i'm a period in this morning as the president of south maui citizens for responsible growth and to indicate that we vehemently oppose this bill and i ask that you not pass it out of committee we understand through conversations that this bill is driven in part perhaps in large part by the disjoint that exists between the mega mall in key hay and the community plan and we reject any attempt by this bill to legitimize what is an illegitimate development i call it an illegitimate development because it is in violation of a land use commission order it does not comport with the key hey mckenna community plan in my view does not comport with light industrial zoning so i see this bill as an attempt in the back door to accomplish which should be accomplished through the front door now we understand that when you buy property that maybe uses change in times change and you want to do something different with it when hillary rice came before this council and said i want to develop a light industrial park everybody embrace that the current owners don't want to do that that's fine the rim of he is the same for everybody if you want to do something else you seek a community plan amendment and you obtain that which you want to do and that's not what this bill does now we're all very exercised here today and you have a huge turnout and you wonder why it's a simple  the history of this property is very upsetting the county would not enforce the land use commission order on this property making it necessary for the citizens of the community to raise approximately one hundred thousand dollars to bring litigation to enforce the land use commission order and it's very burdensome when it has to happen through the litigation and courts should happen here and there is a well defined process in the county code for amending community plans and that's the room many that should be sought here thank you thank you members any questions to the testif aloha good morning committee chair down couch and members of the committee and also stacy it's nice to see all of you again and i just want to let you know that i will be seeing you more often in the future my name tasha com on the pastor of the christian ministry church but also i am the face molly organizer base action for community equity exists to allow our members to live out our common faith based values by engaging in actions that challenge the system that perpetuate poverty and injustice so that's my job for the rest of my life we believe that the intent of the proposal amendment s destabilize the community plans we believe that it is the people who have lived and experience their communities that are the experts we believe that the community plans are the drivers and that  zoning needs to correspond respectively i thank you for the opportunity to testify today and look forward to having more conversations with you thank you thank you members any questions of the testifier seeing none thank you milton pyle followed by tiara lawrence hopefully i pronounce it correctly but everything i was going to say is already been said so i want to take your time but the bill as i see it will not only affect the what the gentleman has mentioned a long time ago but offered many many joining plans for developments and i legal effect and removes the community's voice from the planning process this bill will remove the force of law from community plans making our plans in the voice of the community irrelevant to me this amendment is a blatant slap in the face of our community i w also say shame on council member dan coach for introducing such an amendment and shimon charles jencks plan to invalidate the community input this amendment will basically weaken mommy's community plans and leave the public out of the planning process it is important to me that the citizens of mari county have a voice in the planning process i refuse to let the developers steer their future on molly just for continued profit the community plan allows us the mayu residents who reside here input on what is his bet ballenger and i live in south maui and what i'm about to say is pretty much the same as what you've already heard but just so you know there are a number of us that feel this way and i strongly oppose this ordinance the amendment to this ordinance as well in this move is obviously being made in the special interest of developers and not the residents of maui very intelligent dedicated and respected citizens spend endless hours drafting plans for future development that would be suitable for their respective communities if zoning is in conflict with the community plan then the zoning needs to be changed so it's in agreement with the plan not the other way around i ask that the county council act in the best interest of the people who live and work and not just the developers to ignore the wishes of people you represent would be an insult please make this your coolie ana to do the right thing thank you though you miss bell and are members  questions of the testifier seeing none thank you randy wagner followed by will i'm randy and i have lived in key hay for twenty three years i'm an architect and it appears to me that the community plan is the only voice that we have for our individual communities we don't have any other governing body that can express the will of the people i'm a member of the board of the key a community says he ation and i'm on the design review committee and the planning committee even though i don't speak for them now i speak for myself i've seen many projects and proposals i've traveled extensively and witness communities that protect and enhance their assets their natural beauties and their ways of life and i've seen those that have not communities that take the long view and consider growth conscientiously are those places where people want to live and visit where property values increase our community plans take the long view and consider growth conscientiously they are created by local resident volunteers who love their community and who want to improve countless hours and thinking have gone into these excellent documents the key a mechanic community plan is almost twenty years old and it is a great document with similar values to those that our current president still hold dear as i understand it to pass this bill will remove this fragile layer of protection that our communities hold it is our only representation since our form of government does not have individual representation our communities will become influenced by special interests that have no stake in the long term outcome developers who hold the short few the bottom line view not the sustainable quality of life if we want to leave a legacy of good communities to those who will follow us in this place we need to retain the power of our community plans and respect those who came before us who selflessly created them we do not want to become pawns of developers thank you way for many years i'm also here to speak to those that just passed me up and frankly i'm in agreement with all of them if i had spoken sooner i might have had more to say but let me say that i also believe that the community plan supersedes any zoning that's what it was put in therefore it's up to our elected representatives to honor that community plan and to make sure that it goes forward without change thank you very much ok when i district office denise any testif process for bill like this would be for it to come from planning department but evidently there are there are two questions that i have  first going to the treaty banning commissions before the charter requires the types of bills to be heard by the planning commission's first this is it thank been approved yet to have a safety if we got it at this point it's a real slap in the face i really question the intent but i really question the reason for the proposed change more comment that believes everything is clear with mark and it's not really intended for ordinary people to understand thank you thank you members any questions the testifier seeing none thank when i use sounds like you have another somebody else one which of course would echo what you've been hearing from other testifiers contrary to chairs original arguments in the beginning of the meeting it's clear that the function of the language in this bill is to disregard the more accurate and meaningful reflections of the will of the community as demonstrated in our regional community plans as per the final paragraph of the preamble of this bill if you want to refer to it i would suggest that a more accurate statement would be quote this ordinance should clarify and confirm that the zoning districts established under title nineteen should be consistent with the land use designations contained in the community plans that is how we are functioning as it stands today which is in direct opposition to what this bill is proposing and because chair couch had asked the question about specific language in the bill for me personally i can't speak to the testifiers before me but for me personally the language that was unsettling was section three fourteen a where it starts at the end of the paragraph such designations are intended to provide a general description of the types of uses allowed in the district which strips the power of the community plan quite clearly and also section three fourteen be all and use is permitted within a zoning district in title nineteen of those codes shall be permitted shall be permitted under the corresponding land use designation in the land use map and quote which then would be in opposition to the suggestions of the community plans so that chair couch is the language that i think is unsettling to most yes it's an insertion into the bill you're not changing the code as it stands now and with my minute left because i know that they're going to be people after me who have a lot of really substantive information regarding the bill as well i would i would ask the chair to perhaps operate with a bit more grace when in the position of chair as it has been said before me most of us that come up here overcome a lot of nervousness and anxiety this is our own time we are paid to be here we track these bills because we care about our communities and so if i could just if i could just say that the manner in which you opened up the meeting frankly i found arrogant and and lacked  manners and so for those of us i you know and i'm sorry if this is offensive to you as well but it was it was upsetting for me and so thank you so much for hearing us and i would highly suggest that the committee not pass this thank you  members so i don't need to switch gears you've had a nice active discussion on p c twenty one i'm going to address b c ten if i may please my name is kevin tisdale and i'm a homeowner in the maui meadows neighborhood and i appreciate the opportunity to be able to speak with you today i'm here because i would like the opportunity to be able to offer my home for rent for periods of less than six months at a time while i transition to being able to be on the island full time i'm presently precluded from being able to submit my application to use my property in this way due to the cap outing only five short term rental permits in our neighborhood three years ago when the short term housing ordinance was being crafted there were some people opposing properties being rented for less than six months at a time in mowing meadows as a result of five permit kept in our neighborhood was created as a compromise granted to those opposing short term rental housing even though this cap is inconsistent with the rest of the neighborhoods in the county i do not believe five permits for a community of six hundred plus homes is a reasonable compromise for those of us wishing to offer our homes for shorter stays it is hard for me to understand how one neighborhood has been singled out and treated differently than the rest of the county it does not feel fair or legally justified for such a select few to be only individuals to be able to offer their homes for rent in this manner while i respect and appreciate different views on the best way to accomplish harmony in a neighborhood the arguments and fears that were presented three years ago and subsequently resulted in this subjective rental cap have proven to not be the reality the arguments of increased crime disturbance to neighbors basic neighborhood degradation have proved to not hold water in fact when properties are occupied when the owners away there is less of a risk of crime and break ins than the risk of vacant home poses additionally issues like water leaks and deferred maintenance are recognized and reported more quickly and these homes are maintained in many cases at a higher level than long term rentals which is allowed for all properties not neighborhood properties offered for shorter term stays will not rent well if they are not well maintained a cap of five rental permits was implemented on a trial basis to be resisted at a later time to assess how it was going to my knowledge there's been no significant issues with the homes that have been renting for shorter stays in maui meadows i am asking that the council focus on the evidence from the last three years and adjust the unreasonable limitation of five short term rental permits for our neighborhood since i haven't done that i had to see what that meant in that time i am hopeful that there is a realization that the majority of owners are responsible owners like myself that wish to allow family friends and others to enjoy their home and the area in a legal way that is consistent with the rules produces tax revenue and is managed in a way that in fact enhances the neighborhoods in the county thank you very much for your time and consideration with this thank you members any questions to the testifier seeing none thank you very much next up is mad schaefer followed by peter davis good morning asked the clerk i provided some documents for the council which i presume ya got ok good and my name is bad schaefer in november two thousand and eleven these chambers were filled with concerned residents of maui meadows whose had the peace and quiet enjoyment of their disturbed by rowdy guests a vacation rentals that battle cry quote i'm on vacation and i paid a lot of money to rent this place so to heck with the neighbors was very familiar to the residents residents who live in probably what is their largest life time investment continue to have their lives in neighborhoods disturbed by an off shore investors who want to make money showing allow ha operators and homeowners to work together to formulate an ordinance in two thousand and eleven that would be acceptable to both sides of the issues our parties in great agree that enforcement was essential i remember well council member advice and victory now talking about how culturally in stiff a call to report on a neighbor and so the enforcement for this enforcement to work the county would need to be pro active the ordinance provided that advertising was prime a facia evidence of operating illegally stiff penalties were included every year since the key word has been enforcement and the lack there of now four years later meadows has experienced little or no enforcement officially meadows now has eighteen b n p yes and five vacation rental homes and officially at least a dozen more flourish and permitted long term affordable rentals have been reduced hitting the young couples and families hard now in meadows was an important and popular place for young families to rent honasan those ohana served are now being a many those are being removed from the rental every day we have fifty to one hundred strangers coming into our neighborhood that b and b s have an owner to screen for their security for a vacation rental owner legal any legal who lives on the mainland doesn't have to worry about anything but payment and damages we recognize we don't recognize the cars on our streets or who the strangers are are on the street we grow more commercialised each year i do not support change ignore limit of five permits and now it matters because of the enforcement promises broken in fact i regret ever going along with the concept of a couple of suggestions to change but obviously my time is up i also have a serious concern about how the we've been i've been unable to get the language of the ordinance thank you thank you members any questions to the test make this work i know how hard you work and how hard you try to we all try to come up with something that would work and you know the laws that were eventually made we had high hopes for and so based on that i know there's there's issues and i hear what you folks are saying but i am i want to kind of get a little better take on this is it sure amid a b and b is an s t a is that are part of this problem is that idea that we have a lot of mid you know people operating under the wire or whatever it is well i think that's a fair question you know the the bad boy we had too bad but that really generated a lot of this and brought this whole ordinance about one of them now one of them shut down voluntarily the county was involved i think he saw the handwriting on the wall and that term the other one has become kind of a model for what how vacation rentals ought to advertise it and what the rules are whatever interesting alun enough his website now says h attempting to he would be willing to do a long term rental so the problem is the illegals certainly and i think i i gave you a handout that shows one illegal is running advertising for eleven except a reservation for eleven children and fourteen adults ok that also is that person is claiming a home and homeowners exemption probably isn't paying g t probably isn't paying the t eighty and as far as noise and problems it goes back to again the cultural thing i did have a neighbor call me who is adjacent to  the on to the they cation around on mop and they said they get noise from them all the time but by the time you call the police in you know what the issue is you way you think well it's going stop but it doesn't stop but the whole point is why are we having a business in a residential neighborhood what benefit does the county gain and i've shown you the tax what that property tax is very minimal when it's generated so why do we have to make a commitment to people who don't live on this island who aren't residents to guarantee their investment if you are going to do that could you help me in the market manage thank you very much you know i think your answer the only thing you know seems to be we are really going to have to figure out this enforcement part of this if we're going to have this it's good to be enforced and it was based on that to that in this meeting would you be willing to stick around until noon certainly i mean we worked together before and that's that's why i would like to have you here knowing that that she's going to be here member chair white do you still have a question the on the issues of the rules and the enforcement it says staff is working on language and when that means that i can't get that and often times it out oftentimes that's not fair to say a couple of times i've been here and this half passes out language and the people in the audience some get it are if they get it they get it you know an hour later and there's no time to digest it or to ask questions of staff which the staff is very good it's a very they're a very good resource and that's the problem and that's the problem with this again so i know that it has to go be approved but that the draft goes to the legal in legal then comes back but at least when the finalists done and there's been consensus that language ought to be available for one more hearing so that we have an opportunity we were interested in the community have an guess if i'm right we're working on changing how we deal with distribution trying to get it on both online and distributed prior to the meeting because one of the one of the sunshine law rules interpret i should say not the way the rules are interpreted is that if the chair is working with staff on a draft that draft cannot be distributed to members before the meeting so my feeling is it should be put on the line on the on the committee website if a member wants to go and look at it or any member of the public wants to go look at it that to me is sunshine and if a member goes and looks at it before the meeting i don't care but i i agree that when we pass something out based on our rules at the beginning of the meeting which is after the testimony has been received it makes no sense so i well and it puts us because i know that public comment is before it takes us the public completely out of the loop right and i think that your suggest as it is an excellent one and it's you know i know the big word these days is transparency but i think that provides a lot of transparency and that's that is a good thing  all very soon we're going to have be workshopped here so i hope you guys get the word and come up and let them know what you think of what they do that's the first thing we've got the public has to speak up you all see here speak up here but we cannot communicate to posted well that meaning he posted on facebook and in the newspaper i think people i know people here would appreciate the transparency that's my challenge to them you know a day they want to call this is their challenge to help us correct this wrong  getting information after the fact the last thing i want to ask you another question we want to ask you is so you're seeing the limitations that we put out originally you're from you're still strongly in favor of those limitations and no more enforcement would be the methodology of eliminating the rest of the challenges challenge to users in your community yes but i have to add at no time did i ever anticipate that we could end up with seventy five percent of the hundred being babies and now i meadows and that's the way we're trending now and i didn't know that until i looked last thursday last yeah last thursday and i have talked with the staff and the numbers changed every day and changed every day and now i have a map and i gave you all the map so you can see adding another ten to that map plus unlimited b and b s we begin to test and hopefully you can stay match so right next is peter davis followed by nancy i'm going to guess that this fleet flieger leader members of the council my name is peter davis a resident of molly meadows most recently the past president of the my meadows neighborhood association but i'm testifying us an individual today i'm testifying against increasing the cap of short term rental houses in the my meadows neighborhood looking at this globally the entire concept of one hundred permits for south mali was a bad decision there is no need in south mali for additional  cation accommodations on the north shore yes they don't have hotels they don't have condominiums we have an abundance of hotels we're building a brand new one in a while a as we speak we have thousands of rental condominiums this council recognized twenty five years ago that we didn't need more vacation rentals in our neck of the woods when they changed the zoning on the apartment zones so that you couldn't build any more short term condominiums they all had to be long term so there's an absence of a need to be satisfied here testified with this bill was first proposed a couple years ago to create this new form of business of our concern and valley meadows that because of the nature of south mali of these one hundred permits we were going to get the bulk of them the reason for that was places like n r so you can't do it are older neighborhoods in north not suitable to have this type of business venture be successful and we knew from the get go we were going to get the bulk of these things up in my metals and that's why we resisted so strongly history has shown that we are correct in sphere of the b and b s permits that have been issued and there's no cap on the b and b s sixty five percent of those other issues are currently applied for are in mali meadows of all of the south numbers sixty five percent of these one hundred permits if you put sixty five or seventy of those in value metals that's a disaster and destroys the neighborhood feeling that we have up there that's why we are resisting this at this point in time i want to talk a little bit about neighborhoods and neighbors and that's what a neighborhood is it's a bunch of neighbors any time you get one permit out the people living on the other side of that house and across the street from it lose a neighbor and get us to a business a rotating bunch of strangers coming in and out a few extra cars on the street we have to swerve around them into the oncoming lanes because our streets are so narrow but you destroy the feeling of neighborhood when you take away a neighbor and put a business in its place and i've heard people testify and i've heard comments also that there's concerns about us asking for special treatment a smiley meadows we're not asking for special treatment we're asking you to leave us alone and not destroy the molly meadows neighborhood feeling we're asking you to keep the promise made at the preamble to both the b and b and the short term bills which was that you wouldn't do one quick chair thank you very much for being here i'm trying to get you know a little more information and meds has been wonderful in trying to paint what's going on do you share her opinion about the fact that it's basically the people that are causing the problems to the extent that there is a problem yet the unpermitted ones are certainly a major problem and needs to be dealt with i think the in the overall picture for me the the unpermitted our problem i think just the change of the nature of the mini community when you take away a neighbor and put in a business is a problem and i think that you know if you guys are really going to look at this thing in the picture i would like you to look at it in  having no cap on the b and b s it's a separate problem all you know the self i mean we have twenty some odd b and b s up there now with no prospect it's ever going to be any limits but on those i think there is a cap yes i'm not aware of  being yes there is certainly not a specific cap as to my medals no no and that's and like i would week regardless of the number you put out there if we get sixty five or seventy percent of them that's not what our neighborhood deserves great well you know i want to hear because you folks are in the middle of it we're in this building made us thank you thank you thank you members any further questions thank you mr davis nancy later followed by albert press thank you very much and aloha council thank you for letting me speak today i represent our neighborhood and most commonly known as the shark neighborhood watch  group i sent my papers of testimony to you all on tuesday in so you have gotten my letter of test so i am only going to add a dent i'm in thank you very much for your play very much appreciate that i sent it on to everyone so they would know that you responded in this in hearing everything that people have said so far about the zoning and the complications of a short term rentals because i'm talking about p c ten it's reminded about  my cousin was an advisor to tourism groups and his name is dr stanley ploeg and he said it's a very common thing for people to discover a paradise and then the paradise is so excited that tourism is coming and they see dollar signs and so therefore they start building things and they start so many things over and they start building big buildings and next thing you know it looks exactly like the congested traffic problems that they were trying to get away from so they find another paradise which is not something we want to have happen here because we love mali and we like to have tourism but we it's a matter of controlling in going with this the short term around most of the problems malibu put a moratorium on it sandy eggo county is talking about it even there the councilwoman said look people buy into a neighborhood and they expect to have that neighborhood be there they don't expect many hotel system to move in right after them and destroy the fabric of what they have come to expect there are the precedents go to go to see what malibu did go to see what how santa monica is handling it all the way up to san francisco so you guys are know even berlin i was reading they have a moratorium on short term rental so this is a major problem everywhere hobart tasmania where we were living more recently same thing with the air b b they were worried about the fire hazards of people not really complying with rules and regulations so there are lawsuits the potential there is outrageous so you have to really be aware that you're not only  by allowing this you build up a really big monster out of a can and without any real understanding of how are you going to capture it and shove it back in or control it we can't but two thousand illegal rentals and and a lot of them  who you know they're thumbing their nose they don't care as long as they're making them money they're destroying the fabric of the neighborhood i am asking the please i request the planning commission to send notices to everyone in the shark that area because we all want to know what is being planned either for to  dozen names on it and i did send the on my paper so i sent you all on tuesday it has the wording on the petition and i don't want to take the time to read it but i do have all the names here and i will submit there and get copies made so you'll know that these are as i have more people that want to sign because and even more who are taking it up to hotels because the locals have no way of finding a place to live because of all the this agreed that's really doing their short term rental symbian bs and they're not staying on the property with b and b s i know is supposed to be the rule you live on that property and monitor it they're not doing it so what are you going to do i mean how are you going to hammer their toes to make sure they behave you know i just got a new puppy i'm trying to train that thank you thank you very much and yes will like to receive copies thank you very much thank you very much any further questions for the test for mispriced thank you for being here and thanks so much for  thank you for all the work you're doing it's important we need to get feedback on these i represent a whole community who are working very eager again unless i'm the only one they have the time to come my question is these the b and b s that are causing the problems  one right across the street from me and they're being very respectful and following the rules we have another wind down of the sharp access and that was number one permit and they are following all the rules are being they're excellent we have a few others and they're not monitoring and they're be a bit behind front street which is by the way a nationally historic listed area they are not minding the rules when the children are you know leaping in the pools at all hours so in making lots of noise and disturbing the neighbors so we're lucky in one part but not in all the other so they are causing problems but the short term rentals is causing a problem because you are just getting all of these transients coming through and that's what we wanted we wanted to have a neighborhood i've been there over a dozen years and many people have been there thank you i get it trying to separate the permitted from the non permitted because you know the permitted people we expect them to follow rules and we need to enforce rules if we're not paying attention but it's on permitted thing is a whole other thing that we have to do it but we have people who have signs up saying that they are applying for a permit but they haven't done it yet but they have been ranting stop for two years i understand and this shouldn't be can figure out how to solve the problem before you start again thank you thank you very many for the questions of the test fire seeing none we have albert pereira as followed by robbie dean which  chair couch and members of the committee i mean i'm executive director of maui tomorrow i'm here to testify in opposition to this proposed ordinance the purpose of which is to clarify that the community plan land go to the text of the proposed ordinance the community plans are very specific in maps and text regarding what is desired and all of this would be notified by the part of the ordinance that says the land used as nations in the land use maps are not intended to be an exhaustive list and or to substitute for the zoning and so basically anything that's in the zoning would also be allowed to be and that runs exactly counter to the language in many of the community plans so yes the zoning districts should govern land use however they must first be consistent with the community plans the maui island plan and the county wide policy plan if the zoning districts are not consistent then they need to be revised to conform with the wishes of the people as expressed in the community plans there also seems to be some concern regarding existing nonconforming uses that they could be declared in violation of the community plan designations this is unfounded because i revised statutes forty six for pertaining to county zoning as well as the county code section one thousand point five they both provide protections for continued use of non conforming structures or premises my written testimony has a citation of several state statutes why supreme court case and excerpts from maui county general and community planning documents that requires zoning to comply with higher level plans adoption of this ordinance in its present form would conflict with those authorities as has been stated by many people here incredible amount of time energy and thought has been put into developing the community plans the money island plan and the county wide policy plan hundreds of ordinary citizens g pack members county staff planning commissioners and council members spent years developing these plans all of which would be rendered meaningless if this ordinance would be to be adopted in its present form so the proposed ordinance would throw all of that up by saying that zoning would prevail and not only would this run completely counter to good planning practice but it would send a terrible message to hundreds of people who participated pouring their hearts into crafting a better future what we need is people who will answer the call and all of this would run counter to the stated intent of two point zero b which  increase public and community participation in the planning process thank you thank you mr pres members any questions the testifier i i have a comment thank you very much for specifically pointing  that out hang around we're going to see what we can do to just you know get your complete cern's taken care of we may see what we can do about removing that whole paragraph so we were hearing your concerns so keep in mind that we're going to do what we can to alleviate them and thank you robbie dean followed by  morning good morning chair calif and council committee members my name is robbie dean i would first like to thank you our county representatives for the opportunity and this process to be heard as a concerned citizen obviously those of us who have taken time out of our busy lives and daily work schedules to be here to testify today are those who truly care and trust that you will hear our sentiments expressed here this morning i have been a key he resident since one thousand ninety eight i am an active part practicing realtor representing property owners all across the island of maui i am out in our community every day with both full time residents and seasonal residents i get to hear what they love about our communities and what they are concerned about the value of our homes the quality of life in our neighborhoods and the quality of life when our precious finite island is dependent on our maintaining the vision that you as representatives and we have we as citizens must take responsibility to maintain a well planned residential neighborhoods and they're careful relationship and integration as they relate to our commercial environments and developments are critical to maintaining our property values our quality of life and the beauty of maui that we want to enjoy while we live in and work here every day i want to tell you that our community plan which we took so much time and energy to create and which represents the best overall vision at present of what we want as a community is a vision that we do not want to see compromised or usurped i believe that the proposed change that we are testifying about here today if passed may well open the door to seriously compromise compromise the vision our citizens have for this island we love morning break and have the folks able to move their cars too so i want to make sure that nobody gets any tickets so after mr fitzpatrick we're going to have our morning break  was a very technical amendment that clarifies the existing practice that's been in place ever since a community plans are first adopted and that's that the committee plan kind of lays out the general uses in each of the areas and and the specific definitions of the zoning the districts really detail what types of uses are allowed in those general area use descriptions and the zoning in the community plan should work hand in hand  zoning should be implementing the community plan i don't see this bill as weakening the community plan process at all i see it as clarifying what's been done for the last thirty some years the community plans will still have a tremendous impact an importance it doesn't weaken the law i think it clarifies that i worked at the planning department in the ninety's when the community plans are being updated when we looked at the definition of the uses that were in the community plans it was never of a list of uses that were going to be allowed in each district and just as an example under the land use map definitions for single family it says it includes single family into duplex dwellings that's the only thing that says if you follow the argument that some people are making that that's all you would be allowed in the residential district you wouldn't have parks you wouldn't have schools you wouldn't have daycare nurseries and nursery schools that are all uses that are specified within the zoning district that can go into the single family use designation on the community plan map so they're meant to be work hand in hand a hotel all proposed in a park district is clearly inconsistent with the community plan it wouldn't be allowed today and it wouldn't be allowed tomorrow if this law is passed today so i think it's unfortunate that this has been driven by one issue it does get very technical there's been a lot of misinformation spread on social media but that that's why we have this process that's why we have the hearing we allow for people to come in and express their concerns and i think everybody has said how important community plans are i don't think there's anybody at least in this part of the room that this agrees with that i think this would be a very important bill to pass if it's not passed the impacts on existing landowners and businesses in the light industrial districts in the single family districts in the dust hotel districts would be catastrophic there would be thousands and thousands of people that would be cleared nonconforming uses and while you could continue as mr president mention you couldn't expand the use you couldn't you couldn't change the use or be a lot of negative impacts on the people that would be considered non conforming i have looked at the bill i do see some small changes that could be made that might be able to clarify it but i'm running out of time and i could thank you law council members and chair great seen all of the gays today today i'm asking you to vote down p c twenty one which relates to land used as a nation's as i do agree the language between the community bands and maori county code should be simplified and good system in order to promote healthy development and affordable housing however i'd like to see explicit language that makes the county code in the ma and plan the law of the land during the election we were asked if the community plan and island plan was the law here's our opportunit do what many of asked us to do so i'm asking you guys to do that to do that today in the description of the current form reads community plans shall be interpreted to be consistent with the corresponding zoning districts under title nine hundred mali county code and that land use is permitted within zoning districts shall be permitted within a corresponding land use designation in the land use map again for me it's confusing but i think that i'm not a lawyer but i know a few good lawyer friends but to me this implies that the community plan should be modified to follow county code i agree with others that feel the wording should be flipped to protect the community plans that many residents work so hard on for years to come up the community plans and plans that are residents worked hard on in order to come to compromises with without these plans i'm afraid our small island community community will turn into honolulu please fix this bill th members in questions of the test of fire seeing none thank you my members were going to go for a ten minute break so if you could please be back here at ten thirty five will continue on this meeting is in recess that i'm going to go to the district offices to see if there's anybody and if there is nobody to testify daniel kind of hell in the chambers is the next guy to testify thank you councilman don coach i'm surprised that mr coach has put forth yet another bill to amend the county code in what is a seemingly systematic effort to exclude our maui county from having any involvement in discussing proposed development to their areas in excess or contrary to their community plan last year's amendment proffered by mr couch and passed by this committee allowed for certain meetings to be held only on maui excluding many residents of from participating given his recent remarks to keep the residents regarding cain smoking moving i loath to think that mr couch would use a similar retort as an answer to community residents in the future when conflicts arise what will be our recourse when those who would abuse and useability to place their developments in communities that clearly rejects such developments are approved how do you prove that a democratic process has been conducted if none exists for residents to air their concerns especially when it's discovered that key people in the planning department were unaware of this particular amendment many are discouraged with the type of representation that has been seen with our county council and feel their voices are not only ignored but ridiculed with what has transpired over numerous issues affecting our county recently are we to expect more of this kind of agree just seemingly special interest behavior are we the voters and taxpayers of my wee county to believe that community involvement and democracy is dead i hope this is not the case and that you will carefully consider all the ramifications of this bill and vote no to this amendment i'm a hollow you for your time and i thank you for allowing me to speak to you today thank you ms for toto members any questions to the testifier seeing none thank you miles ok district offices on a district office anybody there to fest by ok will come back to haunt a district office that's we know we're we're about fifteen more testifiers so ladies if you do have somebody that wants to come and testify please e mail stuff or let them know somehow and then we'll get back to you otherwise we won't come back to you until the end a lot of the confusion and concern and anxious created in the community regarding this bill could have been avoided if it was vet it before it came to the committee as one suggested perhaps you could have been vet it in the three mining commissions given an opportunity by our planning commission members in our community to look at it so when i got here you know a lot of the concerns of the community would have been early addressed but now we're doing it now right so you have this big turnout and a lot of people upset because they're confused so that's one comment i have with me a copy of the key a macand a community plan and the question is often it's a question is raised as a community plan have the force in effect a blog or write on the cover pages says the key a mechanic community plan was adopted by ordinance number sixty four forty one and became effective mart six thousand nine hundred ninety eight it's an ordinance as i understand ordinance an ordinance is a law is has to force in effect of law but often times i feel that our community plans are treat it like an eclectic stepchild of the land use directives of the county and and sometimes i feel there are those who would like to lock up our stepchild in the basement and throw away the key community planning process and i have been active in issues over the years because of my my desire to see those three things put on a level important stat they deserve and so committee members i hope you give due consideration to all the comments that have been made most of what i would have said has already been shared by those who have testified so i don't want to take  it at this moment to give others a chance to opportunity to testify so i thank you and happy to answer any questions members any questions of the testifier seeing none thank you daniel  next to testify is dick mair followed by debra mater and committee members you have in front of the green piece of paper that i handed out i wish you would refer to it because i'm going to be going through it i have a question about the propriety of this meeting the way it's been held in the process your agenda states that this is a bill and that yes the status of it is the bill this proposed bill maybe to put forth on first reading etc the county charter speak strongly about this and says a lot of that page there any revisions of the general plans only ordinances or of the land use ordinances may be proposed by the council and shall be reviewed by the appropriate planning commissions as if prepared by the planning director any such provision shall be referred to the appropriate planning commission by resolution i don't see a resolution on th subject and so therefore i don't think you can act on this bill at this time and i think that you would have the region does this item as a resolution and send it to the planning commissions i urge you not to even do that i don't think this bill is proper but i agency shall comply with the general plan notwithstanding any other provisions all community planned zoning ordinances subdivision avoidances mission of actions by agent shall conform to the general plan in other words the community plan is superior and that's clearly put into the ordinance as we have it right now there's no question about the zoning coming first and then if this is reinforced actually in the zoning ordinance itself where it says that the and i'm reading that point zero one five halfway down the page the purpose and intent of this comprehensive zoning article is to require regulate the utilization of land in a manner encouraging orderly development in accordance with and then it continues to the end the general plan and the community plan zoning it once itself says that the general plan comes first and that it must follow the community plans down to bottom of the page did items d and e and here's where conflict comes up the zoning ordinance is very clearly says with regard to light industrial that the m one light industrial district is assigned to contain mostly warehousing and distribution this ordinance would say all uses can be made to be put into that because at the bottom of that page there this is the wording that's in the proposed ordinance in front of you right now determine not just by community plans land use regulations designations is also defined by the clarifying text if you allowed this ordinance go through they might look at a map and say this is a light industrial area but in fact there's much more content in the text that conforming uses you have a clause and you could pass an ordinance that would allow the nonconforming uses that are already existing to be given to the go cart to go past and not be not be put under a sense but future of the official community planning committee i do respect and honor all the time that these people put and thought and research into trying to balance out the development for the county and a big part of that is looking to the future and our children and what's going to be here for them and what direction we're going to go in and i feel that the community plan as written is kind of a protection mechanism for that and a way to balance out  and the other reason i brought my children today is because the last time that i saw a large amount of people coming out to testify and we take off work to come here because we care and we love molly you made a comment afterwards saying  up and i was just really upset by that and when you're making those comments you're talking about families and kids so i brought my kids here today hoping that once everybody leaves here and you guys get a chance to discuss this amongst yourselves the please don't mock the process and don't say anything bad about the people that took time out of their day to come here and talk to you about molly thank you members any questions for the testifier seeing  we have john graham followed by lucy and  the big thing here is community i noticed that very few questions were asked about the people opposing this bill act what a lot of questions were asked of the lady regarding the destruction of her community by too many illegal rentals short term rentals well i would suggest that we should look at the whole community communities may have been neighborhoods of people people like myself who moved here thirty years twenty five years ago people who were going to make it like waikiki developers on the issue developers are just people who want to use the land and make money off it the people who count the people who vote or not vote for you guys i think you develop something really bad for yourselves when you didn't  ne followed by lawrence costs repeated in every ca see people put in tremendous amount of time so that's the community plan process now what's the zoning process the zoning process is usually meetings that are held when people can't attend or the date time the agendas are not posted people don't even realize that zoning changes are proposed unless they maybe happen to live next door and get notified the overall zoning categories we have are a product of i think probably import from those who utilize the zoning who are the landowners and not those who are more directly affected by the the results of zoning like the everyday citizen that just has to drive to work every day so we have two very different processes here and yes i understand we want to clarify things but really it's like we have things like stacking in our light industrial zoning this is not common everywhere where you can do every kind of thing that's allowed in other sorts of zoning in the industrial area this is kind of a cheap way to get commercial and not have to deal with the impacts of it i read they hand out that mr jenks gave to the chamber of commerce asking that people come and testify today and you know i have respect for mr jenks he's a very smart guy but even smart people sometimes you know overlook some of the things that really should be obvious his intention that we have a problem because expansive uses are allowed in  zone and these expansive uses are not allowed in the community plan is right to the point community plans are a chance for people to say yeah this is owning pertains to a wide area but in this particular area we really see a better way and we would like the zoning to be modified in this area there's nothing wrong with that there really isn't and i don't think this bill should try to fix it it's really understandable that mr jenks would like to save his you know his employer time and money but we don't want to do that by inserting language that has the possibility of negating something that's really an amazing process that you've heard the community supports in the community believes in the jeep back in the public and even in this chamber during the discussion of the malyon plan we're all told you know the island plans for the big picture your details they go in the community plan and now what i'm hearing is that we don't want those details the ring convenient they're inconsistent so i think we better kind of get this right we don't want to do something to fix a problem that isn't that big a problem so please keep the integrity intact thank you we oppose passing this bill thank you mr gay members any questions of the testifier actually have when mr day yes you're talking about the whole bill or just there are certain provisions in the bill that are troublesome that's what i'm trying we're trying to find what part of the the general intent of the bill a chair or couch does not seem necessary to me from my analysis i am not an attorney but that's my analysis ok thank you members any further questions thank you the council's planning committee m hamilton the president of the maui chamber of commerce and appreciate the opportunity to be here today we appreciate the spill because many of you and the because the community plans are adopted by ordinance it's viewed as law the zoning code is also viewed as law so what we need to do is seek clarification on the general plan and community plans to  longstanding and sound practice of using zoning districts as governing land use regulations it is meant to address an unintended oversight when dealing with the elements of a multi tiered plan it's really important to clarify how elements relate to each other and how ultimate determinations will be made and we feel it's currently have silent on this which as you can see is creating confusion distrust potential conflict and ultimately potential real harm so we applaud the council for looking at the specs and for aligning land used as a nations within the community plan with parallel zoning districts we do not see this bill as meaning to usurp the community plan process or quiet voices it's meant to deal with an inconsistency this bill will not end and we would not agree with attempts to circumvent land used as nations in the community plans however it will provide to clarification that will protect many existing properties and businesses that have already been developed and some have said ok well you you've already got a statute that helps do that as long as the use is exactly as it is and you don't have any catastrophe if anything happens if there's a catastrophe and the use needs to rebuild that does not apply so we're talking about many inconsistencies throughout our community that affect thousands of residents and businesses so what we would like to do is see this fix implemented as soon as possible you can see that there are challenges here and a need for county clarification you know i hate to see each time we come here these attacks and i'm sorry chair couch for the attacks on you know and the attacks on council members and attacks on how they expect people to vote we're all here to share our feelings we're here to share our concerns we think they should all be heard equally and that you'll we trust that you'll come up with winning solutions so i'm very sorry to see that we come up to this way but we feel that this is really an important fix it's something that should never have happened we should have had more clarification early on now's the opportunity to fix it it's about consistency and i'm sure our planning to rector will can well explain why this is a part of a best morning council members council chair my name is thomas cook thank you for the opportunity to come and give testimony on p c twenty one i'm in support of this bill as a previous  member i just want to share my perspective of that process i hope that everybody embraces respects and continues to work to make our general plan a very strong functioning document when we met was supposed to be eighteen months it turned out to be three and a half years the first just sort of from my perspective the first year that we couldn't get started was really talking about the sunshine and it was unfortunate the group never really got an opportunity to like get time together unscheduled kind of sunshine restrictions to get to know each other to trust each other to share some love to understand just how much we do have in common just how much we all do care so hopefully the sunshine law can be corrected because i know it in impacts your capacity to be transparent and neighborly so at the end of the process it went on and on and on there was a rush we were supposed to get maps that had overlays that show the existing zoning and what we were proposing and be able to see and have some visible some real visibility into what was existing what we were proposing what the impacts were anybody this lived on the island for a period of time and done anything with the land recognizes that our ordinances and codes and laws etc there's many of them who are confirmed that are conflicting the general plan was the opportunity to have a tool not a weapon and to have a guiding principle that had a lot of input from the community grassroots support and this meeting right here is to me is not a surprise it's very expected some of the in consistencies between the zoning and the community plan are now creeping up the fact that the legal interpretation of non conforming use is really a big deal in the discrepancy you have the power to change zoning you have the power to do a lot of things so i don't look at this is like a win lose into the game this is a process thank you for spending the time please continue to study all the issues my perspective is by passing this bill it's not a loss it's preventing a lot of unnecessary wasted time in court and in issues the planning commission planning department would have uncomfortable hours to sort out you know why lay a point these other existing conditions that are not mormon thank you very much for the opportunity to give testimony but thank you mr cook members together on these important issues i stand for sustainability cooperation and respect for the community needs above corporate needs which should be in service to community corporate needs and service to community thank you think very kind attention thank you members any questions of the testifier seeing none bruce followed by mercer chubby of a sen what different body something needs to be done i remember when i was on the planning commission a while back the issue of hasegawa general store came up when there was conflict between those zoning and the community plan and they had the fire with that happen there and it took years and years to hash out that issue to wait for another one to come up there is no what someone said one one on for me it's not predicated upon a specific development and that's not for me it's predicated on the existing you see is what we have knowledge that could impact our lives as one example that took a while to hash out and as one example that we should learn from and just to sort out we don't run into it issues in and i support this and on a different subject rannells i live in and i heard a gentleman say and i am not to offend anyone says my opinion it is expensive to live in for you we got we got it eagles everywhere you say one in four i  believe it's higher you know area my son rents a room full twelve hundred who could no longer afford a room in pio because you competing against people that are coming from everywhere it's a hot spot so we  feel we let him down all the kids and i wish i could bring my kids because they live it me we living on the home because we don't have not only the affordable housing aspect which the developers do which we all need but also to rental and i think that's when you walk into play you know coming to my neighborhood which was annoying you can see a lot of different faces in and you can see the people with the tourists chorus walking out as family they having a good time i'm all for it i'll never s will tell a model everything but they are affecting my my lifestyle and they affecting my kids and they're going to be affecting my grandkids so we kind of one has to have a grasp to control what's happening called eighty's spreading like wildfire in my neck of the woods to align the corresponding land use descriptions within the community plan with parallel zoning districts because the coach forth over three and a half years i worked on the we touched on many many subjects some of my friends were members of the are in everybody worked very hard to make it right as in life we miss things maybe i can say the same thing about the people that set up zoning when for instance if you talk about industrial you may mean warehouses you  mean a retail spaces within that same designation but it's not specific as to what you can and you can't do here you are you have a general plan that gives you the guidelines of what you should or shouldn't be doing and it's in conflict with the zoning for that property i think it's exciting that you've chosen to tackle this very very important issue we've got to get it right otherwise we'll be sitting here twenty years from now wondering what the hell happened on june eighteenth of twenty and fifteen  commend all the people that i came today for again this resolution because that's the american way we can express our opinion on any subject and isn't that what it's all about i'm proud to be an american i'm proud to be who i am i'm proud to be a maori and let's work together try and make this thing right and get a por said and in when we bought the properties there were forty two lots he and he put a restriction in it that said that there would be no short term rentals those that was one of the rules of our community and yet here i am twenty six years later surrounded literally surrounded by short term battles their earning all over the place i don't know who they are and my my reason against short term runnels is not because of the rules itself is the impact on my community we have kids at one point we had thirty eight kids running around the streets on one street very productive subdivision and we had surfers we had no you know they're all good people don't get me wrong however within the mix things can go wrong i need to know i need to be comfortable i have eleven great grandchildren and when you come to my house i don't want to say you can't go through that door because i may never see you again that's the kind of thing i'm talking about and i'm against short term rental i've taken the position in my community to live and let live i very protective of my children when they come over and my grandchildren and you know but i'm against it and if we can do something to put more teeth into it you know there's something with adonal i hope you guys you guys can resolve this you've got a lot of quality people here great minds and i just hope that we can we can attack the problem and get this thing corrected it's been around for we've been talking for a long time now let's take some action thank you very much and and i appreciate the time that you've given me today they give mr bit sends members any questions the testifiers seeing none thank you hundred ninety eight my family has been in hawaii since eight hundred seventy i'm testifying in support of the legislation before the committee today as presented by the planning department and vetted by corporation counsel the purpose this technical environment is to align the corresponding land use descriptions within the community plan with the parallel zoning districts for example if a community plan designates a land use area as light industrial this amendment would clarify those permissible uses under the light industrial designation that would be allowed by zoning regulations i support the technical amendment as a way of clarifying the relationship between land used as the nation's in community plans and zoning this legislation will not allow the kind of actions raised by testifiers here today in fact i and many others would with whom i agree would strongly oppose any attempt to interpret this legislation as allowing folks to go around land use designations in the community plan concerns have been raised that if an area were designated in the community plan as park as a land use then this legislation would allow hotels to be built in that area if the air hotel and not park that is not an action that would be authorized by this legislation in fact titled nineteen of the maui county actions by agencies shell conform to the general plan in other words if a parcel is this it made it park in a community plan and zone hotel a permit for a hotel and a permit for hotel is submitted for approval that permit cannot be issued unless a permit is consistent with the general plan in conclusion i support the proposed technical amendment as a way of clarifying the relationship between law and use designations in the community plans and i request that the committee confirm that this legislation will not allow the kind of actions raised by testifiers here today with whom i agree and with whom i on or this legislation should only clarified land use designations in community plans and their relationship to permitted land use under thank you for the opportunity to testify and i would urge people to go to the k c a website to stay informed that is gokey hey they do a wonderful job and the next meeting is july the fifteenth at the charter school thank you thank you mr youth members  i'm not going to take up any your time i would simply say to you that if this issue was not of critical important port it would not be before you today or the department of corporation counsel has identified this as a significant issue in section two point a to b of the amount we county code needs to be resolved one way or the other so that people have certainty with regard to where they go to decide whether those are allowed to do on their piece of land that's about all i have to say i think it's urgent enough to deal with it's important not to deal with they brought it to your table you need to address the issue in some fashion so we can all move on and that's all i have to say mr chair and you mr jenks members any questions to the testif seeing none thank you thank you matt schaefer is the last person signed up to testify after this will go to the district offices and also back into the chambers for other matches schafer thank you for the accommodation in listening to this it struck me as part of the problem here and i'm talking about twenty one it's that the lawyers get involved in the language in terms of describing what the bail it's going to do so if you read this description and i have some knowledge if you're ocker say it's intimidating it's his what why doesn't someone who has a working knowledge of the english language in the view of transparency simply do a citizen summary so that it isn't just legal and it says this is going to change this and this and this and this is in doing it in a very simplified way i think people would appreciate that and i think they wouldn't be so say thank you ladies anybody else in the chambers this is a last chance to come down testify going on ok members seeing that nobody is rushing down the testify without further without any objection we will close sanctions ok thank you members and thank you public for coming in to testify we will have a short while a fairly short presentation from the department of planning on what p c twenty one is going to be about so if you get a chance if you can see we're going to do it on the screen here general purpose of the of the bill before you as an initial matter i think it's very important to clarify that the community plans apply with the force and effect of law when dealing with discretionary actions these include subdivisions the include changes in zoning is included s m a permits and other discretionary actions ministerial permits such as building permits alone ok those types of permits do not have to conform to the community plan and those are based on corporation council legal opinions that are decades old based on advice that has been given to this council multiple times and on a recent amendment to the code several months ago to clarify that  so that's a very important clarification that it deals with discretionary actions but with respect to this proposal the task before us was not to was not to say the community plan will in all cases be superseded by zoning it was to say that in a situation where the zoning essentially matches the community plan designation and the definition used for that was corresponding land use designation was to say that if the land use designation in the community plan matches the zoning that the use is in the zoning would be considered consistent with the community plan that is because you've got designations such as light industrial heavy industrial hotel agriculture where you've got the same name for the the zoning you have for the community plan designation and i think there may be some confusion because of the term e they correspond to each other if they if the community plan designation parallels the zoning district in title nineteen by name meaning it has the same name or general use description this was to do with the issue that if you are zoned agriculture and your community plan designation is also agriculture that the use is allowed in the agricultural zoning ordinance would also be allowed considered to be consistent with the community plan that was the task that was the focus it was not certainly to say that if you are not a corresponding land use district meaning that if your zoning in no way relates to your community plan designation that doesn't matter you can automatically do whatever you want in your zoning when you're dealing with discretionary permits that was not the intent and i wish there was an easier way to clarify this here and that's something that we can certainly work on but i wanted to make clear that the task was not to say that whatever your zoning is your community plan designations going to be trumped by that zoning and that's not what this bill does it says that if you are  if they match up with each other if you've got light industrial zoning and light industrial community plan designations or another example is hotel zoning and a hotel and use designation that the uses in that hotel district are allowed in the hotel community plan district if that were not the case then someone who's into whose community plan hotel and is doing a use of the hotel zoning could someone could come in and say you're not allowed to do that land use there because it's inconsistent with the community plan or what's the community plan it would be hotel so you'd be in the position of saying that there are your zoning is inconsistent with your community plan even though they have the exact same name and that was the challenge with trying to avoid things like that from happening  if it's the case that the council is is ok with the community plan having different uses allowed narrow we narrow being more narrow than the zoning and allowing fewer uses then that should be clarified in the law the other way because it doesn't say that right now in the departments practice is my understanding it has always said that uses that have the same name in the zoning districts that have the same names as the community plan are allowed because otherwise why would you create a zoning district that has the same name if you're going to have uses that are now inconsistent with the plan so either way if there's a problem with with that approach that needs to be clarified the other way and so that's what this bill was an attempt and clearly i think based on testimony needs to be clarified as to what exactly is being done because it's not clear enough but it was an attempt to resolve that issue that deals with those with they call corresponding land use designations but if the issue is you know what we want to have the community plan should be narrower and even in those cases it's going to be it's going to restrict the uses that needs to be clarified the other way because that is not currently w you mr hopper for that attempt to somewhat clear my head over this my first question i guess and some members of the community brought it up in regards to this type of language and the scope of this being referred to the planning commissions should this not be a step in addressing this because it seems to be you're even kind of talking like well think should be clarified and worked on still  the planning commission for amendment a two point eight zero b is not a legal requirement the council has frequently amended two point zero be amendments to title nineteen of the code to zoning ordinance are required to go to the commissions that does not however  prohibit the council from sending this to the planning commissions if it would like to that's an option the council has to pass a resolution to ask the planning commissions to review this so that's something that it could do but is not legally required to do before acting on the bill ok well thank you for that so i hear it's not prohibited and with that being said chair i would like to recommend that just because a few obviously sounds it needs more vetting i'm not just through this body but i think overall generally countywide people would like to chime in and get a little more grasp of what's going on here so that's thank you for those comments corporation counsel thank you mr cochran and before we go further with mr hopper or mr spen that you know the intent of this bill is not to be passed out today i wanted to hear all the concerns about the community from the community and from everybody involved and we will have the discussion if we can either today or at our next meeting as well and hopefully to clarify the language and have if this is the will of this committee to send it to planning commission so that's fine as well we can do that but this bill was put together to alleviate some concerns and so that's that's the way it's going and there's never been an attempt to shut the community out or shut the voices of the community that's you know far from it and i can see where there smite be some confusion there so we want to make sure that that is clear in the purpose and in the language itself ok any other members any other questions for mr hopper you know members mr spence's presentation is going to be longer than we have time left so what i did i don't know about that you don't you think you can do it in fifteen minutes because we still have to wrap up and be a little bit longer than fifteen minutes but ok do you have any comments for that for the i think it's important for the for the people who have come out to testify that have real concerns over this the intent of this bill and the consequences of you know saying that community plans are the definitive land use control i think it's really important to be able to see this ok let's run by this real said the clarify that the community plan on used as ignitions allow for all the uses in a corresponding zoning under title nineteen so if you have single family residential and we'll get into examples i i don't want to belabor it you should be able to do the parks the daycare the bike paths all the other things the greenhouses the truck gardens all that stuff you should be able to do that allow do all those things under that single family does ignition in the community plan but those things are allowed by the zoning it's not mentioned all those other things are not mentioned by the community plan but they are allowed b i'll disagree with mr frampton he said for the last thirty years this is the practice of the county for at least the last forty years when we first adopted community plans in the eighty's this this only clarifies this aspect this is the current practice and has been in case you can speed it up yes or hotels the corresponding zoning there's really limited language in the community plans and what hotels are under the zoning however you're also allowed apartments and single family residences and all the other things that are allowed in those only because we have the stacking provision you can do parks in hotels on but not in accordance with the community plan light industrial this is the sum total of the permitted uses w housing light assembly service and crafts style industrial operations the stacking provisions in our zoning allow for businesses restaurants offices ten they adopted community plans of it says single family you can't build a hotel you can't get hotel zoning you can only get residential zoning and you know apply that across the board it does not change state law where it says we're state law says for to grant an estimate permit you must for developments you must be consistent with the community plan this is not change that at all does not change the consistency requirements for a subdivision you can't do in our three subdivision on a community plan designation of agriculture and it does not as some people have i don't know how they assume development just can't go anywhere it has to follow the community plan so what if i asked the question so what if as some of the some of the concerns are that the community plans were the definitive land use control that all you went by is those  those descriptions say for light industrial controlled everything it would mean hundreds of small businesses non profits etc they would be inconsistent with your plans you could certainly not grant any discretionary permits you could not grant estimate permits special permits you could not grant sign permits certain sign permits many variances are even question whether we could grant short term rentals or bed and breakfast permits because those are not mentioned in the single family designation but it isn't allowed under the zoning ok light industrial or warehousing light assembly service and crafts style industrial operations let's take a look what's really going on in the light industrial district kcal louis i think everybody recognizes that it's not showing we think of this and we think of you know based arts those kinds of things but the reality is that these to say that the light industrial description in the community plan controls you're saying would not be allowed you're saying zippy is i me it that said they're not they're not allowed at all kings cathedral down to earth would not be permitted who would not be permitted and since they own that building it's a multi tenant building it would be saying that any of the vacancy is that occur and they're all you could do would be stick a light industrial use in those vacancies those all those businesses there would just go away i mean they would automatically go away but as they move out you could not replace them with another business marma case hardware i did not talk to anybody before i mean testifiers of use these examples i chose these of my own the veterans clinic that would be considered not a permitted use bureau and hotel association the queen lilian kalani trust they have two facilities there that make this nonprofit not permitted there are a multitude of dentist w u and the carpenters union these would not also would not be permitted to go to a mechanic community plant and i'm purposely going around the island so i really can see this effect something in your community office or plaza building the charter school would not be permitted they would not have been allowed to go into the space in this light industrial designated area and they occupy ten spaces not just the one until we discuss the the tech park yesterday until they get space up there they're going to be in this area and we would not allow them to expand if they needed to there's a south coast plaza office building going over to west maui behind a gateway mall remember that and i know that those spaces are not all filled if we use the light industrial designation you would not be able to fill those good empty spaces with retail operations you would have to use light industrial they also need a variance right now for some of that they have and i know they've been to the council we would not be able to grant a variance for their signage needs either this is a light industrial designation also in the same community plan designation star noodle some of our favorite restaurants have churches up there we have a number of churches within our light industrial areas and we go out to haik q cannery that is the major commercial center the retail center for the haiku area the grocery store the laundry the ace hardware store the bicycle shop  what's your name to that really great restaurant right there on the corner i'm forgetting colleen's haiku town center the other commercial area these provide opportunities for small businesses oh well a cannery also restaurant the used to have a hardware store there a lot of small businesses some of them are light industrial nature the surfboard shops some of them are most definitely not the other designations somebody mentioned hotel before the community plan designation says trans in a commendation which do not contain kitchens since we've always interpreted that you could do anything under this designation that the hotel zoning would allow we're talking about wh may and they would have problems getting s m a permits because they're not conforming to that description single family i mentioned before single family community plan only says single family and duplex dwellings what about the parks on the playgrounds what about the schools daycare is greenhouses truck gardens nurseries same for multi family no parks playgrounds schools no single family residential there's a number of instances where estimate permits were granted for single family residences because it was considered consistent with the multi family does it nation but it's less intense than multi family and it's it was found desirable to build homes there instead of apartment buildings those wouldn't allow that anymore i would ask the council if there's a certain consistency co permits community plan amendment descriptions don't provide for that they don't provide the planning commissions to be granting special uses and then i have to ask what happens to the conditions of zoning there's no conditions of zoning in the land use designation so really it's in the council's wisdom when they go they implement the community plan through zoning by following the community plan they and by the way i'm sorry we'll get copies of that for you make those after the meeting ok sure is your intent to continue discussion on this subject well we're just short lunch is coming up yeah short amount of discussion if you have questions for him and then what the chairs intent is to work with some of the resource folks and listen to what some of the testifiers had to say and come come back and post i don't know if it's going to be sunshine law or not but i post the changes after discussing it with some of the resource folks and some of the with our attorneys and whatnot make some changes post them and then that gives the community a existing non conforming establishment and what have you currently but this is just to clear all that up in one fell swoop which is i mean is that what you're trying to show us with these slides get there they've got special use permits are they got i mean the point is we're not saying take away that church take away that restaurant take away zippy's i mean that's ridiculous so i just want to know i don't understand  being clear anything for me the community plan light industrial and why are you focusing only industrial the time is up the main intent here know that because that's one of the predominant districts where we have the stocking provisions for business uses because personally i have issues with our open space in our ag land and all those other things which by the way in west maui chair in particular that's why i have a really kind under the collar thing with this ok so i'm all home ah area it was community plant open space park alone behold we're pavan it over and it was community plan and the community spoke out just as these people came here today and then we fell swoop it and turned it into something else but anyways how's that going to help that i could go through each one of these community plan designations what the what the what the discussion is are these community plan designations delimiting uses is that all that you can do under single family or hotel or open space or  agriculture the agriculture thing is really problematic it's much less risky the community plan designation is much less restrictive than our zoning it is so if we went by the community plan designation you could do all kinds of stuff that our zoning doesn't allow so what we're saying is community planned the two need to go hand in hand when council  they need to follow the community plans through many discussions through public hearings to people who are affected people who just take an interest in it they come out and testify in the council grant zoning or not and when they do there's usually conditions attached but it's council who determines if the you're following the community plan or not ok if we went strictly by the uses listed in the community plan there's a whole lot of uses that are allowed by zoning that would not be permitted you have to follow i mean just like yesterday you have to follow the community plan there for the tech part there amending the community plan so you can grant zoning in accordance with the community plan for preexisting is where the problem is the the problem saying these named uses are all that allowed single family single family and duplex dwellings according to this if the if this controls all the uses that's all you could do you couldn't do the daycare and the parks and all the other i have an application right now going through the high in historical district in an estimate it's single family rez are two and they want a parking lot they want a community plan amendment in order to accommodate right because they need to find consistency with the community plan it's single family and they want to parking lot that's a that's a that's consistent no we are not i'm not saying they would have to amend the community plan we wouldn't allow want aren't just going to grab something like that members and yes mr hopper just started to try to clarify i think one question was well how did how are all of those permitted and i think the department at least in my knowledge has always historically saw if the use is matched up exactly that the use is in the zoning we're ok we're allowed in the community plan district with the same name and if this bill is to make that clear that's the clarification going on if the council has a different view of that and would say no just because the name is the same doesn't mean all the uses are allowed then that needs to be clarified the other way too because how it has always been in the history of my county to my knowledge is that if had if you or your zoning designation matched your community plan designation then you could be allowed to do any of those uses in the morning designation as long as it has the same name as your community plan designation i don't know of a case where that was someone said no the community plan designation is not specific enough as to this i think that's always been the interpretation so if that's going to change i think the point that that that this legislation coming to you would be is that well then there has to be a clarification the other way but i think not passing this bill would you still continue to have the the department have that interpretation of the plans to say that if you have the same name as the zoning are allowed in that community plan area so that's that's i think the history that you know there's not a statement that those buildings are inconsistent with the community plan right now but that if but if the if the council has an issue with that interpretation that this is an opportunity to deal with that interpretation and deal with to clarify it in the law so that there's not any more about you know about this issue which allowed gas stations we said we added conditions that if we felt that you know with in accordance with the community plan and the area we don't want these kind of things we've done that we've added conditions to take away  permitted uses in certain zoning areas even though we give them that zoning we've done that we do that quite a bit i know this council in the last five years i've been here has done it quite a bit so we have that flexibility to that gives us the flexibility to do that mr hopper you know one option rapidan to of course delete uses from the zoning districts right now that are existing that if the council believes it shouldn't be in the community plan area those uses can be deleted from the zoning districts but  potentially a option that the council always half has ms gravelle oh thank you chair i know i'm not a voting member but you know and i can appreciate the process that you're trying to bring forth with  mr harper and mr spence i have to go back to processes i have to go back to devalue of community participation whether we call it the voice or what have you and the the direction under the planning which is going through right now comes under the planning department so it appears to me important that all the presentation that you're doing here is totally clarified with the advisory these are community people are in there with their hearts and they're not going to understand all these whatevers but if i look back at the charter and i think one of our testify is brought that forth we also have the process where if we're going to have change to our job our general slasher community plans or other land use ordinances it may be proposed by the council and shall be reviewed by the appropriate planning commission so there's processes for us to  community plans please get that all clarified i think we have inconsistency with understanding and the exact clarification which leads us to all this confusion that we have and how it does not jibe with the community plan or the zoning it in all due respect to the community process that's what we need to value first of all and yes this is also a process that we go through but it's it should it be the start of the process you know we have the initiative initiation of the community plan which involves community and to trying to do that's the bottom line and you know and i know that and we can give all the dissertations but the general public doesn't understand some of the planning people didn't understand and some of the council members didn't understand then we know we haven't done a good job i mean you need to get back work on it do you agree to do that work with some of the various entities that are a part of our community the various groups making sure that they're all of their concerns are covered and all their concerns are met and not to lose the aspect of public participation and that's got to be first and foremost and i think you said that number of years so i don't think that was lost in the discussion most importantly if we've learned from here is dead for the longest time we've changed things as we went along i think what we want to do is to make sure that in the future that if any change is or wanted or  necessitated by any aspect of the community that the community at large has the chance to weigh in on it what is the planning the party what its community of public meetings it doesn't make a difference they have their chance to see what they need to say and why they feel this way and for us to listen you know and we're not here to catch a nice but to participate that's why they came and it's funny when it's something like this who you know we've had other issues to justify show up and then we wonder but this is very important and then the last thing i'll say and i remind everybody was this thing and i remind the gallery when y p comes up you get you know what down here at a little knoll that you don't agree with some of the transparency they do restrict us from being a part of i cannot go to their community association meeting if there's four more of us there i'm a lot i'm not allowed to go to to even sit and hear what's going on how do i know what goes on in a community meeting when i'm not even allowed to be there and if to a more we got to make reports i mean do you just drive us crazy and this is the community wanting to tell us what's going on thank ssion and i know as a corporation counsel has indicated that it's not a requirement at this bill under section two point eight zero point zero two zero is not required that it goes to the planning commissions we can i do see the nexus that it would would you know at some point we could motion for it to go into the planning commission the nexus being that it does affect title nineteen and that i know that the a long term range planning division uses chapter two and they also are  in corporations with chapter nineteen so i see the village he of sending it to the commissions for further comments i also believe that this is a good starting point for open dialogue between the community and the council to become educated on what what i see is number one a lack there of understanding of the  not very many people in the public understand what stacking means that if you have a designated zone industrial light industrial within that ordinance you're also allowed to have x y z and z and plus additional additional uses like zippy s church is things like that within that within the industrial light zone does it nation and on the other hand when we look at the planning the excuse me the community plan the description basically says industrial industrial light period so here's the conflict are we just going to just allow it just industrial light or we get a look at our zoning which allows additional  additional uses but they both have the same name you know tester a light in zoning and industrial light in the planning so i think that we need to take baby steps and educate the public educate our council commissions have them make more comments and then we have a full record of vetting this through but i think that we're in a good starting position and i think if we work with the community we can get this thing these issues we love this island just as much as we do that's why we're here doing the job we we have a lot of sacrifices that we go through to be in this position but you have to have the trust and faith in what we do that we're doing the right thing and to to not think that we're going to ignore your opinions that it's far from it being exulting i understand where you're coming from chair but i want the public to clarify to be clarified that this is a process and i am number one to go back to reiterate ng i respect the process so thank thank you and just to comment on your stacking the thing we did discuss stacking especially in the light industrial and we chose to keep it in i don't know if you were on the and we discussed stacking so therefore you know there's a probably a lot of people in the general public that probably need to be reeducated or at least educated same with me so i don't look i don't i don't know at all so thank you very much sure i don't think any of us do miss by so yes i'll be very brief i want to thank you chair for this meeting this morning i certainly have learned a lot and i really appreciate having listened to all the test of players into the departments presentation and all of the questions and answers back and forth i am much clearer as to what this bill is about and what we're trying to do and i'm also a little more looking for some of the tweaks that you're going to be making i think it will be very important but we do want to clarify this so important you know the buildings and the business that is that we saw on that screen scare you they're big part of our community we don't want to know anything to happen to them and not be able to be place remember midnight in i'm ok and all that good word there been many and so we don't want to go there but i do want to say one thing i am very i'm very happy that this morning one of the testifiers mentioned because i said this while we're working on the general ban it i didn't like the process and i really would have preferred to see community plans done first and up the general plan would be a consolidation of those plans rather than the other way and i w so members i will get what i can out after discussing it with some people is there any other comments before we break ok thank you community for your comments and thank you