be manned and as i read that paper by the government was about three pages long it's very hard to be that precise about any particular limitation and i wouldn't and i'm  and that issue must be considered you know by this court now there's no there here that the board applied the wrong legal standard when applied matter of a cost of because that's not the law of the circuit the circuit falls from the end of my seal which holds that a particular social group can be  just based on it's a confluence of circumstances and shared experiences that forms this group and we would define it as number one hundred and number two youth three homelessness in the four indigence and  younger children face on the basis of this group so targeted that he will eventually get older or he's aged out simply have no comfort or consequences so you think his current age keeps him with them the definition of hunger indifference to that neglect because this experience they search out other similarly situ it's children form these groups to survive for example at pages seven forty eight forty nine of the record it states in order to survive they create strong still szell bonds with those who are like children who seek to join the gangs these children seek not to join the gang on trail and group here is an odd word to be a member of a group of we taking out of one hundred street children doesn't necessarily mean you know or associate closely with other members of the group it means you fall into a certain category so i'm not sure that if we were to find a one hundred hundred instructor or ninety five of whom have a cohesive group and the other five are sort of sketchy frantic and lonely and high down on my themselves under the bridge  group when a social group was defined in a related but distinct way that is to say the social group arranged in that case worse hunger and street children who have refused to join a gang and o them subject to retaliation or punishment by the gang in this case you're pushing a little bit on refusing to join a gang and being punished for that reason but you've also got well irrespective of refusing to join a ga retaliation or punishment or harm imposed by the government focusing for the moment only on harm by the government or harmed by gangs that the government is unable to control unrelated refusal to winning witness others murdered his friends he's been beaten and harassed on the basis of the fact that he's on the street and he's been threatened and beaten by gangs because they aren't the government cannot control th because they're they're a nuisance they're nuisance to the society they're nuisance to business owners and their children on that basis it's just something the government cannot control i don't hear from the government you're down to twenty five seconds o will make sure you have the chance respond thank you very much  association have focus on things such as police officers union members truck drivers military officers the quick reliever case in the second circuit which i think my colleague cit notion that someone who voluntarily joins a group that is made up of people who are poor and people who are homeless simply does not fit within the court of group it's not essential your honor if you tip over to the other side of the equation and talk about immutable characteristics and that is where the problem in the litigation of this case has a reason although my my colleague focused on the the board's alleged error in failing to address voluntary association the truth is this case is litigated almost entirely on the other side of the force of the court's test which is immutable characteristics female the we have this decision by one board member that hundred street children are not a social group within the meaning of statute that's correct we have several other one board member decisions that go doesn't involve political opinion doesn't involve religion it should stand alone our point is that it's so broad that it should not be a good nice little group because three children because my colleague has argued that the government seems to be implying that this tribunal american women on any could nice little social group if for example you have five thousand if you're you're ok if you're over five thousand you're not ok that's honor that's true but that's not the definition that you're asked to approve here one of the problems with any social group case is that the definition tends to open and close as the litigation wears on asking would that include people from dar for who are basically not protected by their government who suffer the same sort identify a break before the harm comes to them and the that makes sense because in order to be targeted for persecution you have to be identifiable in the eyes of the persecutor whether it's beaten because i was abused because i was threatened by gang members did we address this area and our decision and will long versus gonzales involved in the chinese christian women in indonesia and  predominated in the government was primarily you know muslim and that they weren't adequately protecting chinese christian women from the attack that's accurate your honor and two points one there again you have another category of under the asylum laws and are in the case of christian second that issue was whether there had been a pattern or practice of persecution against that group so again my poi christian women in indonesia is certainly now more than three children but i think christian chinese women any unusual best bet is a group the question then is whether or not the government is going to be embarrassed and put out by having a large numbers of people on the streets this country that's not a part that the government the streets are other countries it doesn't that doesn't mean that anyone on the street in any particular country is and t you should not be required to return there even left the conditions that led to review your persecution no longer apply it's granted without regard to the well founded fear part of the asylum equati father beaten tremendously humiliated created through the streets and eventually murdered by the red guards he came to this country apply for asylum and the question was well that was awful but  the cultural revolution has been over for many years the regulars don't exist anymore why do you have a well founded fear of returning to china now and the the immigration judge and the board in that  soldiers who served in lord's resistance army and we pointed out again there that he was no longer a child he's aged out of the third circuit agreed with us the wrinkle in the case was that after coming to the united states this little while ago had become a the third circuit i believe that's the case that your honour's referring to the fines for their particular social group as young hundred men who have been actively recruited by gangs and have refused to join the gangs and i question some of the board i do think it would be beneficial for survive sexual exploitation starvation and other horse that are on the streets and this is the board at the record page two of six neither of one has recognised that this group is a howling group in the past s