good evening this is the time in the place for the meaning the board appeals of the city of holland we are here to respond to applications tonight for a zoning variances and housing variance this board must try to interpret each application as it relates to city ordinance board is not empowered to rezone or to take any action that could be considered rezoning and variances must meet for crucial tests in order to be granted those of you who are here for a variance have already answered questions about tests on your application will begin i will begin by asking you about those answers again tonight this is the procedure we follow we ask that you come to the microphone to speak and state your name and address we will hear the applicant first and anyone supporting the application then anyone in opposition to it typically will hold the public hearing an application and deliberate decide on the application before moving on to the next application you are welcome to stay for the deliberations but there is no opportunity for further public comment if you like not to stay for a deliberation decision you can call the city clerk's office after eight thirty tomorrow morning to learn the results tonight we're going to hear the applications in an order that's a little bit different than what was noticed and we're going to hear from fourteen thirteen z bennett phillips and dennis johnson and we're going to wrap up the zoning application and then we'll finish with the house and application that said could you please read the application fourteen the thirteen bennett phillips and dennis johnson on behalf of the west michigan ltd l l c doing business as a bullet hole i requested a use variance for the property located at seven sixty one east eighth street the applicant proposes to use the property for an indoor shooting range the shooting range is not permitted in this see one's own district the letters of support were received a letter of support was received from michael dorn from two thirty seven carrington court stating he is in favor of allowing the bullet hole to have an indoor shooting marine range and a letter in opposition was received from dale brown stating his concerns are the noise and property values thank you notes are both part of the public record is there an app here tonight that would like to state your case and or ask any questions from the board city council for of a zoning not shoot a firearm in this and minutes for clarification minutes before what body here i'll read it to you this item has been under review since the owners we approached the city it in december and in truth we were working with the planning commission in september on the zoning and the approval of this project  i asked him to be here tonight and he said he couldn't but our drawings and site plans and you have copies of if you look at the dates on the one that i gave you in our application it's eleven eleven thirteen was to final plan approval we had done so well samples the site plan approval in the final drawings for the whole project that was actually done with with our architect  building inspector because there was and and i'm going to let ed discuss that in the construction because the city range downtown already existed there was no ordinance excluding what we wanted to do there was nothing it or against it which is twenty dash for well up till i'm going to say november first we were approved on this project to go ahead and we had had a plan for eleven twenty six to sit down for our what i would call him he read it to you may find it and this is a letter from our vanderpool going to twentieth of october this looks good for setbacks the twenty five foot setback papar drive st seven foot minimum setback with the east property line it appears you are you are set to make the application now for required administrative site plan approval now on the twenty eighth of october sure mr phillips certainly w appreciate that but please know that the power and scope of this board is limited to addressing the ordinance at the time of application not necessarily anything that happened prior to the ordinance being enacted ok when the ordinance was and acted may speak on that certainly i think mr docker salut wrote that the new ordinance at the time we were originally approved on this project it was he zoning of that existed and  nine shoot in the city and not questioning how he did it but he combined the both the zoning in the shooting together to protect the police department the city range downtown military and concealed weapons permits in the city and on may fourteenth there was an anonymous approval by the holland city council to approve that ordinance which had c one zoning in it and two minutes later nancy to board decided she did not want see one zoning in the project even though this project from september of two thousand and thirteen was in c one zoning and moving ahead now i don't understand how that even state law says you can't change zoning in the middle of a project i have the state law with me and there is certainly and they just remind you that this board is not that recourse well for that action but my point is i don't understand why this isn't grandfather dan and i may be and i'm out of line but i i believe that this project was going forward until the city attorney decided that you couldn't shoot in the city well where was he ten years ago when they built the city range downtown same ordinance and that's why mark vander blue told us that there was nothing stopping us from doing this project so i basically what we're saying is we'd like to be grandfathered in thank you for your time but do you want to make yourself available potentially of questions to the board chair from the board yeah right now does anyone has any member have questions mr phelps i have a question here this is going to be installed in a what's essentially a residential area purpose of the sea what do you feel it will impact the residential character of the neighborhood you know because you won't know it from any other building you won't see it you won't hear it and it'll it the construction will be similar to the existing building that exists there  goes virtually unnoticed sound is not an issue is though that a lot of there's been a lot of background on sound issues but virtually the even the city council stood at the police range and didn't hear anything and our construction is equal to or better than the police range and the sample they did at silver bullet in grand rapids question can you explain why your property cannot reason be used for what's allowed in the zoning district because in the zoning district there are numerous number of different items that are allowed can you explain why yours cannot be used i don't know why it cannot be used by a better way to restate it is are you currently enjoying the use of the property right now without the range well no because originally when this process started we bought this building with the anticipated show of building the range because we had a go ahead ok back in two thousand and thirteen so we were going to build the range it was okayed precedence existed with the police range downtown and the planning commission didn't see any problem is it currently a retail establishment it is so without the range it's currently being used correct ok and so the state that question another way is is it would it be impossible for you to use this property of this range did not exist yes because the overhead imbalance of the of the building versus what it's producing monetary allee is upside down mr phillips it's not only that you couldn't use the property it's that it couldn't be used for any of the permitted uses in the c one district so basically we're looking  standard that says it cannot be used for any other permitted uses in the district which are listed in like banks and bakeries barber shops dry cleaning offices retail shoe stores those kind of things is it your opinion that the building could be used for one of those type of stores well no question it could be you could probably be used for a lot of things but get the original the zoning that existed when this project started and exists today there's no exemption for a shooting range ok we offer a service and that's what it is you're retail wine in there this is a retail store is a semi colon with nothing behind it so if i was a if i was operating on dogs like the guy across the street i could do that there so i aka operate on small machinery if you will we're offering a service it's a silent service it's different there's no question about it but it's no different than any other if if i wanted to put a tire repair in there within seven feet of the lot line i have a right to do so because that's in the ordinance too it makes ten times more noise than i would make as a shooting range and that's allowed and i have accepted that fifty decibel rating that was originally approved unanimously by the city council i have accepted that so i am under the nuisance ordinance i listen to a dog bark over at the vet clinic inside my building three days ago i watch semis poland is to semple which is c one which is not allowed net happens every day so things go on in the neighborhood right now that exceed the c one zoning if anything changed to see two for everybody  from a street right on up to the vet clinic because see two activities are going on every day i'm not saying anything that somebody couldn't just sit there in a lawn chair and see but nobody polices it if you will but it goes on know the questions from the board spoke to the neighborhood the third one the second one it says what unique circumstances are conditions apply to the property that require a variance this would be something unique to the property and that the physical that the shape the size the ordinance that exists today that would support construction on that property are drawings were used to create so it is perfectly matched to what is allowed anywhere in the city nobody can build less than our construction they can build more or greater but the lot lines that were established the square footage required the the parking amount and the noise ordinance is attainable in that spot so really there's nothing unique about the property that would require the variance other than the variance itself i mean to to allow us to be there i mean right now if the city is saying we're not allowed to do our process but everything is in place that would meet the requirement of doing it on that property and the final test is the need for the request of variances not the result of actions of you the property owner or the property or previous property owner meaning it's not self created so you've got your business situated a physical location and there's nothing that was self created that would require the or ornaments or the variance like if i like a lot line change or something is that what you're trying to explain to me yeah that would be a good example if you divided up the property and now you don't need set back requirements and then i need a variant so you there's nothing you did that was self created to require this variance kno have any other questions or comments i can't think of any other than that you're standard zoning for a lot line limits we have exceeded those and commercial one you can go seven feet from the lot line and so that you know we went twenty one feet from the lot line as a as as a as a a favor if you will to the city because we could have gone twenty feet wider or some is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak in support of the applican ninety eight one eight perry street in zealand michigan thank you right i just want to speak a little bit more about the process of what would be the site plan review that also gives us a time frame of what happened and when the ok started coming so late had been had said we started this at the end of last year already to the point of sitting down with the local officials here in holland to make sure that the building could be actually built on that property so when you had said earlier is it unique to the property it's unique because none of these conditions would would have ever even existed except for a change of the city so prior to any of this happening even at the end of last year everything was ok even to the point of us having all of our information and paid for and submitted to the city of holland with our application fee what would have been  november twenty sixth of thirteen that's when the site plan was actually submitted for administrative review that means that the city of holland did actually take the site planning in and started that process for  know that our hands are bound to the tests of the ordinance that was in place at the time application correct and that's i think i brought that up for to highlight that that's what's also unique about this but at the time everything was set and ok and it changed then after the fact so all by default i guess it is it is a unique situation that in that cause ok thank you very much any questions from the board of the you michael if i may try having sat here for five years as a liaison i don't know that i've ever popped my my gone but because it's been brought up a couple times the phrase unique in that particular test and i've sat as a zoning board member prior to being on council so i understand uniquely the importance of that word i think it's important for the audience to understand that the the test is specific to the property it's specific to the parcel not necessarily circumstantial things case of the test that this this board is held to is relative to the property in the parcel topography and things of that nature unfortunately not what you just address in terms of service circumstantial things and so for what it's worth i just wanted to add that bit of clarity so there's no level of confusion as things move forward thank you very much and just to reiterate the  purpose of the this board in terms of the city council's process we don't take that into consideration we should believe the phrase was be home watching television well the deliberations are going on  and what may or may not have transactions between city council and or passing of ordinances is not subject to our review very strict in what we need to pass in terms of the four tests and we have to put on blinders to that so it is with that said is there anyone else here that would like to speak in support of the application order for ben to build his building and conduct a business as he wants he needs approval from the zoning board and is the zoning board bound by the deals with the structure it deals with how close it is to something else and so on is so forth and i and i also understand that there are variances not necessarily for building a building two feet mean an appeal appeal that designing board said no you can't building them is by my correct on that there's only says no you can't build a structure and you can't build it for this particular use if it's not in compliance or the c one zoning district he would like a variance and that's what we're here to doesn't come down to what's appropriate comes down to the four crucial tests that the africa had an opportunity to answer beforehand that we question him on tonight did i hear something though about being something about the neighborhood the character of the neighborhood and something like that i'm not sure what you heard but that is an element specifically would but the board is only appeals has to make findings on four different points or standards or test the first and there it is the building structure land cannot be recently used for any of the uses p right or by special use from it in the zoning district in which is located so for example is there a reason why the building could not be used for retail purposes or for of office or for a beauty condition of the property would include the building is there anything unique about this particular land or building and that need for the variance is not due to the applicant's personal or economic hardship the third test is that the proposed use will not alter the essential character of the neighborhood ny heard the applicant and perhaps the architect address that test in that they said that the building will blend in it will match the existing structure so we have heard testimony as to that particular point and then the the final test is the need of the requested variance is not the result of actions of the property order or previous property owner in other words is itself created in some respects of the africa that you know the building was there when he bought it he's proposing to put an addition of the problem is the use and the question is is he creating his own need by having a gun shop for which he would like to know use a range so this board of zoning appeals is governed by those four areas and we've heard i think a discussion on would alter the essential character of the neighborhood and the applicant and i believe other people have spoken to that issue i have heard some talk as to  could it be used for in the other use of the applicant said he did not think that it could be and he said it was in the care that was a service and it was impossible to use the building economically without the range but the question is could he use it for any use other than a gun shop and make money and the five pretty and so that's what this board is looking for they're looking for that sort of information so i hope that will be helpful as the various members of the audience make comments on this application i understand you could put a beauty parlor in there but if the city decide added the let's change an ordinance after efter a businessman went ahead with an investment went ahead with plans etc and with a they deemed a beauty parlor not part of the city ordinance because some people are emotionally against beauty parlors and because i'm sure there's a few people in here that are probably emotionally against the beauty parlors and i hear what you're saying is that you can't go you can't change it you can't give a variance to see one because see one includes the no discharge of weapons is that a correct answer that's correct yes and that's simply a city a city council issue it's not nothing you can't see see one exist and see one exist and because of an ordinance that was changed necessarily belong before the board for the type of recourse that you're seeking so what happened at city council the recourse isn't necessarily the zoning board unless it's a variance that meets the four tests i understand that were no such or perhaps city council changing some more and this can chase more businesses out of town thank you very much is there anyone else here to speak in support of the application idea that he went ahead and bought this building and now he just said that she won you can't shoot a gun and that should be a start flying a little this kind of order that they're going to come up there he's got a gun store there now and he wants to have the pistol range there because that completes his business s in sure can be used for in any building can be used for something else he's not in that business he bought that because he thought he was going to get cleared it was all set except for decimals and in the noise we check with what he's going to put in the building what we're building the building are ten inch  and as for not get bitten a bunch of guns up in a residential area that's the safest spot you're going to be everybody that comes in there knows how to handle a gun knows that when he walks in there and goes in there that dang things got to be empty i think i think you're out of the ballpark here he's jumped through a lot of hoops for a long time marty explained that to us but i think it bears repeating that the ordinances that are made by the city are what i addressed by this particular board so any perceived injustice with regard to how the process took place is not necessarily something that we're equipped to address at this board ok we don't provide what we don't provide variances to or redress to everything city council does where zoning board rate i realize and once the ordinance has been passed however it's been passed emotionally charged or not that's not a factor in how we address l anyone else here to speak in support of the application in support of the application is there anyone here to speak in opposition to the application my name is patrick shelley i live at eight o six pawpaw drive how in michigan i'm not a very good speaker but i'm trying we're not here if there's been some question that we're going to haters and so on and we are not it's not a question about arms or people carrying guns weapons in there or out of there it's a question basically of what is it what is good for the neighborhood and that is a see one district that was a c one district when i moved and since i moved in i've added two i worked on my home i added to my house but before i started i had to go through i had to draw up plans i went to the city and i got a permit before i started buying materials and so on i can understand the boat holes problem that they thought it was approved in my understanding they don't have a building permit so it hasn't been approved i feel sorry that they invested money with the intention of putting a certain type of business in there it's a business that i don't think is good for the neighborhood the four questions that they answered i got also a copy of those off the website and i could not see where it was reasonable that they could meet those four questions to get his own but they get his own in change but that's beside the point when we purchase a piece of property we may purchase it for any number of reasons one of course is business but if it's for a home to live in we could purchase it based upon the neighborhood our neighborhood present preference is that high density is a low density is there a lot of traffic is it a good place to raise children are the schools good and so on and so when we look and perhaps shopping is a good thing to have close by and that's the character of the neighborhood and that's the character of how an heights it's a nice place to live the types of businesses the fit in with the family lifestyles this to particular business is not a local neighborhood business is just is not it would probably be better suited if they were on a located on a busy street where they got more traffic through their route tale shop and certainly where any that type of business wouldn't really change that character and when we say character it's not just the style of building it's how people live within the neighborhood and i just i think that although i think as i say i feel sorry for them and i wish them luck in their business i just do not want to see a shooting range there it doesn't meet the criteria for a c one dist of c one type of business it's been gone through that was the study session bakery bank barbershop dry cleaning there was a there's a beauty shop in there now there was a real estate office in there before that's the type of business to when i moved into the neighborhood was there i knew what was there if we start changing what can be in a neighborhood these people that live any place cannot be assured of what they are buying and what they're putting their life savings into they have to look at when you when you purchase a house you look for a number of things and if it's going to be changed helt the a couple of the of the test the questions in terms of neighborhood impact character of the neighborhood this the neighborhood that we have up there is a delightful it's a clock tick the homes have been built from a variety of times throughout the last number of decades so it is it's a very good it's very diverse but it's also in many ways like an estuary for  heights area we absorb especially our block we absorb a tremendous amount of both the social and environmental stress basically for the rest of the in suing blocks i mean  they're right that we have noise on our street we can hear us thirty one but really in terms of the character and the type of business that's going in i know even the people that spoke in support of this business these are not people that live in the holland heights neighborhood and and i'm not against a shooting range i'm against a shooting range in a neighborhood business district the vet that's down  way we take our animals to that that we live in the neighborhood we take our animals to that effect i don't get my hair done at their shop anymore but i used to you know i mean the people in the neighborhood shop and we  and i think a gun range when the focus of even being able to support that type of a business pulls in people from outside the neighborhood and you know i just i watch people walking up and down the sidewalks i watch kids delivering their i mean it loosens what the vet want people from outside the neighborhood to bring business or i think they do but i think you're not going to find people from park township coming to east i don't think you're going to find people from grand haven i don't think you're going to find people from grand rapids coming to that that i don't think you're going to find people from south haven and because they have their own that's nearby i think the point is that there are people that will be bringing guns and i'm not against guns we have guns in our home but i don't want my husband to take them down the block and discharge them there i would like him to take them a little further away place that is further away from residences away from children and we have lots of children that walk around in our block and so yet from the standpoint of the character of the neighbor i think this deeply impacts even when i heard at city council believe the parameters for the hours of operation were pretty significant usually by about five o'clock or five thirty six at the latest our neighborhood means we're finally kind of just shutting neighbor the traffic stops and the some of the parameters of those timeframes that they could be open till nine o'clock at night open of at seven o'clock in the morning that can definitely impact the neighborhood in terms of how much traffic is going in and out there the building clearly can be used for other purposes other than the fact that the city council has  declared that the c one won't be used for shooting there's nothing unique about it the property is not unique there's not a physical description to that property that only created and in many ways i think the need for the variance is self created that there are other places of business so thank you thank you miss joan is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak in opposition to th i don't think that there's any reason why this property needs to be used as a indoor shooting range as opposed to something else it has been a barber shop a beauty shop a real estate business and it can continue to be so i think that it's that it's operating as a gun shop right now that it's not causing any disruption to the neighborhood but there are certainly more room in that building for other types of businesses it doesn't have to be strictly a shooting range  there there's just no other there's no reason it needs to be but as far as how does it alter the character of the neighborhood again nobody that spoken in favor of this has been from the neighborhood i've lived in this neighborhood for twenty years and part of the reason i chose to live in that was because it was a quiet family neighborhood the businesses that are there we utilize and they do close at five o'clock they're not open on weekends and they don't draw a lot of outside traffic yes the vet do have people from other neighborhoods coming in but not in large amounts and not at the same time i think that when we're talking about a shooting range which is it's fine i'm not against that but i would hope they would be successful if they're going to be very successful they're going to bring in a lot of people from different cities into a smallish neighborhood environment and that will change the flavor of the neighborhood they only have eighteen parking spaces that counted if they're wildly successful and we all hope they are somewhere else that's not going to be enough parking on a saturday afternoon there are going to be people who want to mill about and talk it's not that big of an area  there's a i have no it's an i'm getting no has but you know basically this this does alter the flavor of the neighborhood in this building can and has been used for other purposes in the past and we knowingly bought our houses in an area where we could have a residential home i think that it's ok for them to knowingly purchase an area for their shooting range where it can be with lots of parking in a business or an industrial area thank you thank you is there anyone else in the audience that would like to speak in opposition to the application i am her planning i live at eight o five hard drive and i got here a little late but looking over the four tests i can't see how this could be that how this could pass that for me from the customer testimony or whatever from the owner it's they bought it as a see one district they got some kind of promise or paint the old verbal something i don't know it hasn't been clarified what approval they even had they bought it knowing what it was  if they can't make it work by selling guns if they're underwater as they said this is self created this variance and that's really all i've got the parking the other thing the parking i  think it is the i don't know if that's part of the zoning too is that developed parking is about nailed down there and there's once again there is promises of well maybe we can work something now with the place across the street and all that but it seems as a lot of what if scoring on about the entire project but i think the one part for me it doesn't pass the fort that are you saying that there's not enough parking i yes there's not enough parking especially if they're going to add on to the building if that does anybody seen the property yes certainly driven by ok so if they're going to be having more than i don't know maybe a i don't know after construction there's going to be less parking i would assume if they're going to be wildly successful where people  they've heard that a number of times other metrics for visitations to shooting ranges that anyone's aware of well i would be any i would think any business if if there's not enough parking where people going to park i'm talking about any business if i have a business that's going to have thirty people thirty different cars come in and i've got ten spots people are going to park on the road ok i did it just i'll open it back up for the applicant not at this time are there any other members of the audience that would like to speak in opposition to this happen cation the home is now i believe you've heard correspondence from my brother christopher prince who decided to buy into the community in from out of state my mother died this past year and tough for the last fifty plus years it's been in our family i grew up walking to the corner to the mr ife to get groceries when i was as young as four day i got his car fixed at the height service there was an ice cream store that we went to if we were lucky and it was a very small neighborhood we were the gateway to holland heights which now blossomed we've got mcdonalds we've got garbage in the front lawn now and it's changed a lot but my understanding is that it's not legal to fire a gun in the city of holland and the last time a gun was fired in holland hi service lockdown at the elementary school there's a church walkway i walk my grandson past ever daily i have and i was disappointed to learn that you know there was a proposal to actually fire guns here don't have anything against it it just doesn't fit the neighborhood i don't know if any of you remember  there was a project to change communities like sell sure village washington square there were grants to improve those neighborhoods and there were drawings for home heights with proposals for different types of a dolly things that would enhance the community and i saw other neighborhood centers it be improved and i don't know all the owners of the building sub down we had to pitch in and not a lot was changed and how on heights but i think if you want that to become a community and to continue to be a community then we need to encourage  family type businesses and also like peter my mom's neighbor or any property you are in the city of holland whether be personal or rental i think we all know that you can't overstep the city's guidelines and before you do anything to your property or your own property you have to get permits and you have to sign the dotted line you read the information and be be my name is dennis johnson i'm one of the owners of the bowl and i'd like to address some of the things that have been brought up by the opposition probably a good place to start is parking i've heard this so many times it's like a broken record we're only airing if we're allowed to do this six lanes six we have twenty eight parking places on property twenty eight you can never have more than two people on a lane at a time and if you do easily they come in the same car so that's twelve parking places at worst case scenario every time i listen to somebody speak in opposition i'm not allowed to build a commercial building in their neighborhood they're not allowed to build a house in a commercial zon i'm not building this building in their neighborhood i'm building it in c one if allowed to do so we have plenty of parking whether they like it or not there is on park street parking allowed on papad drive i don't anticipate us needing that as far as ours we're not going to open up at seven o'clock i don't want to get out of bed at six and come to work at seven we open it ted at ten o'clock we would probably be open till nine but the last shooter will go on the range at eight if you address ed architect he will tell you that this facility will be virtually soundproof we have taken the trouble of putting an inch and a half of sound construction under the siting and we've taken the trouble of spraying the interior of it with sound deadening material if i don't attain the noise level that i want i put more sound deadening material on it the problem i see when i listen to the opposition is one of simply this they don't like the business we're in we are not bakers we are not barbers we are not hairdressers we sell firearms and th firearms you don't just stop a business that you've been running for for years because somebody decides i don't like your business and frankly that's pretty much what i keep hearing when somebody comes up in addresses this they talk about this range which is going to be about three hundred thousand or a little more to add on to the building like we're throwing a pile of dirt up in it like a bunch of hillbillies and we're going to shoot out the yard that's not what we're doing we have taken great steps at a lot of expense to try and make this quiet because we don't want to disturb the neighbors as far as people coming in from all over they already do we have customers who come from harbor springs detroit south haven chicago they come from all over the country that isn't going to change i mean we basically have worked very very hard with our architect to make this building a nondescript and be extremely quiet i can't do anything for the noise of the semis and the heavy equipment it semed go or the impact wrenches and heights auto repair but i can do something about this building and we have address that this is not going to be an eyesore we haven't bothered the neighborhood you know we keep getting hit with oh my god what about the school we're mandated by federal law how close we can be to a school and we're within that or we wouldn't have been allowed to have the store in the first place unfortunately that little school up there surrounded by should register sex offenders which i think your time would be better spent worrying about them than us at a nasty got to worry about years ago used to be a police officer i spent four years in the military two of which were deployed in a combat zone the kind of people that come to this business are the kind of people that most folks want in their neighborhood we're not deviants we're not outlaws we're good law abiding citizens and all we're asking for is an opportunity to expand our business and make it work thank you thank  and with that i'm a close the public hearing and open it up for deliberations amongst the board i'm ready to make a motion there's no question i move we deny the application motion by davis to deny is there support i would support support by cannot be used for any of permitted uses in the c one district currently parts of the property are being used for uses in the c one district and they are successful so that test was not met i don't believe  it's the second test i do not believe there was demonstrated that there are unique circumstances or conditions that apply with his property to require such a variance the property is is kind of a standard commercial property and not unique the third one explain why the proposed use of your property will not alter the essential character the neighborhood i don't believe that it was demonstrated that this use would alter the essential character neighborhood more than any other successful business would in that neighborhood so i believe they actually meant that one and four was the need for this variant self created i believe that the need for this variance was created by the city council changing the ordinance it was not created by the owner for but for thoroughness mr philips when asked about the test number one if it can be used for anything else i believe the response was no question that it could  and then in response to the test number two about the shape location hell's weather and it was stated that there is nothing unique about that this property there requires a varian would like those added to the first and second elements as to the character of the neighborhood certainly i don't i grew with mr davis to an extent but if enough residents and given residential neighborhood are not comfortable with a particular business that doesn't meet the current zoning ordinances the possibility exists that the type kind the character  the neighborhood could be altered so i'm not convinced that it would not be  with the board wanted to avoid on the test individually so you record your findings then you have an overall motion in the applicant doesn't have to meet all four but you are making findings in the findings should be made by a majority two but that the applicant had better test three and four and that would be sufficient but if you're making phase of fact i think you know there may be some disagreement as particular findings we are looking for a had already said plus whatever else i ad support support i agree with there before of what the ordinance was when it came to us in the sense that he's currently operating existing for business retail operation  and that presumably that retail operation could exist without that right presumably other businesses could exist without the range so as it runs with the property to me itself created if it runs or the property if it's business type agnostic i think it's also important to note that he's a bit been in business in that location for years and it's hard for me to believe that he's not making money where he's out right now he wouldn't make a change and move somewhere else where he could build a range that met his needs his business needs someone like to make a motion in light of these variances these findings these find motion by hughes to deny the application pain area is allowed in one side yard where the applicant proposes to pain seventy nine percent of one side and one hundred percent of the second side care thank you is there an applicant here to speak on behalf of my name is steve i live for all seven college avenue reside there with my family and this is just want to thank you for hearing my request tonight i do have i would like to ask a question is that ok i've never done this before can i ask a question the question is are the criteria for this particular variance the same or different than the one previous and if not could you tell me what they are so that i can try to please number one that the need for the request of variance is due to unique circumstances or physical conditions of the property involved such as narrow nish shallowness shape water topography it is not due to the applicant personal or economic difficulties the second one is that the need for the requested variance is not the result of actions of the property owner or previous property owners created that one is the same that strict compliance with the regulations governing setback frontage height of bulk density or other dimensional requirements will unreadably rent the property owner from using the property as permitted use or will  non conforming or completely with those regulations unnecessarily burdensome and the fourth one is or there's two more that the requested variance is a minimum variance necessary to do substantial drop justice to the applicant as well as other property owners in the district five is at the request of variance will not cause an adverse impact on surrounding property property values or the use in enjoyment of property in the neighborhood or zoning district you have all that yeah if you need a refresher i'm sure i will but i guess i'd like to say listening to all of those i do believe that they are the answer to that question is that all of the reasons why i'm here today do would qualify me for a variance for this for that for the concrete that i'm in need of with that being said i just would like to state that i do have a letter here that i don't know if it was appropriate that i could just give it to you because there's  six things on here that i think help answer those questions and that way it might limit i have enough copies for everyone so clear if you want to pass those around we'll pass in r l make those a part of the public record additionally while she's passing those out if it's ok it like to just add that a lot of the things that the guidelines that have to qualify if this makes sense i don't know if i can explain it correctly but not only does it does it qualify but it has the adverse positive effect to most of those conditions if you will i don't know if you know what i mean by that but hopefully as i read some of these you'll understand what i'm saying but  for example the how it effects the neighbors it's something that affects them all positively and i do have actually a letter from someone here that said that he doesn't actually say it necessarily affects him positively but in the letter know that my house is a habitat house i think that's important because it may come up and for some reason and with that being said the reason why i'm asking for the variance i have listed here there are six six reasons one of those is because of flooding that has occurred in my basement and i've had that twice in the last four years i've had flooding and water sits all over my property the way it is and so the concrete will i think it was not the night before last it was storming really really bad i'm not necessarily need to make it a public record but i'll just say that i do have a video of how the water now doesn't sit on the property but with the concrete the way it is in in particular the concrete that's in question that i need a variance for i have a video on my phone of the water shooting down both the drains perfectly and i don't have any flooding in my basement which in the past when i've had that i've had to redo my basement once and before that it was unfinished or i would have had to redo it twice actually there was some redoing because there was drywall that was quite a bit of drywall those damaged but either way flooding is a big issue and the concrete in question is exactly the kind of the two concrete that that have the biggest questions are the two pieces of concrete that ironically shoot the water to the drain when it's raining hard or do you have a visual of the property where you get this this is what we look at what's the best way for me to describe it to you if you want to go up there and become up to the document camera around the side and speaking to the microphone so there's a there's a drain right here in the north i guess it would be east side there's a drain on the road right there and you see where it says remove that's one of the concretes that i'm asking for a variance for and what i'm telling you is that water would just sit there and it's right next to my basement there's only maybe what is it say there i don't think it gives the with but the with is like that big to the  grass before my basement and the concrete next door to me and so what happens is with the way the concrete is now we've created the path for the water to go down into the drain rather than sit there and cause flooding in my basement and then secondly on the on the back side of the property scuse me right here the concrete goes this way now you see the little spot that says remove right the little circle here the water all meets right here now with the way the concrete is because this is new concrete as well but in this particular spot where it says removed it's forcing the water down the drain which is on this side of the property and prior to that water would sit right here in this area and right here in this area causing what we think that's myself and habitat who only approved variances on the private property this mall triangle on the other side of the sidewalk is in the public right of way and is not subject to review and approval that is decision is made by the city engineer for clarification the circle part that says remove it and then the part where there's a little arrow there that part is while the circle that's directly under the word sidewalk well that's what you just addressed yesterday ok why dress both of so correct and you'll be the side in the circle part that says remove to the no to the top of the house and then four percent of the boxed in area below whether or not that has to be removed ok so basically i showed you the one of the four percent that i'm asking for there's so every reasons one is that the flooding i mean i could probably get away with taking four percent out and i have a flooding but the problem is i can't get away with that and both have enough parking for my family it's mentioned in number two back because of lack of parking space because i have a really small corner lot i have limitations with the obstructions that are on my property  i can only park two cars in my family we have five right now we have two teenagers who have bought their own cars and who drive and so you can see my dilemma the city has an ordinance that says you have to have your cars parked on concrete and the city also has to you know you get ticketed if you park your cars on the street overnight course there is a little bit of a sample time right now that we have right now you can only do right now you can park more because there for the very first time they allowing it what's more you can park on the street overnight but i'm seeing on your property itself how many to two without the concrete with the concrete i can park for five so without the concrete i can only physically park to for reasons of obstruction that are in the property and size of the property because if you look at i guess one of the things you could look at  between the garage if you see from here the distance that's between the garage and the sidewalk is way too short for the length of a car so if you park a car there's one car that fits in the garage so if you park a car behind the garage the cars halfway over the sidewalk additionally on the side here on the right side of the garage this concrete there's a tree that has all kinds of bad roots because it's ridiculous huge and so because of that it's caused problems where you know there's only room for the length of one vehicle to actually park in that space so because of my property situation i don't have room to park more than two vehicles and need concrete to be able to park more vehicles in that area right adjacent to the thirty three feet what would that to the north east corner of the garage you're saying that's where the where the tree roots are and you are there and just the tree there just the trees too far toward t to be able to park two vehicles ok fair enough could part of that concrete or that be removed to be the foreperson it could however it takes down the visibility of the property because it looks better with concrete and the second thing is what was i going to say is that if i do then it would make its mainly appearance stuff but it would make for a lot more difficult time for snow removal as well as leaf removal because of the way the tree is and how close it is my garage is there literally like a foot to the neighbor's garage so it makes it you know if you're back there and you get grass you're trying to or do any kind of snow removal you basically chapple all your grass and can never grow grass there so does that answer your question a little bit what is the area right there in very far corner that that line paved or there's a little box which park angle part in the far northeast corner you know right where the fingers know you don't is because of the tree ok t gutters anything where here you were saying by the back porch there that you're getting oh right here or what it is that that the neighbor's property has a little bit of a slant that goes toward my property and so that's why water sits there ok but since the concrete is there right now it hasn't been flooding not at all not only has it not been flooding i have video of it taking the water and putting it exactly where we want it to go ok in the city sewer or whatever that is that the drain goes to i'm assuming it's city sewer and they've got the concrete lifted up so that water sits on it and  know if i remember correctly have been driven by this property immediately north of your property line for a fair amount of the length is the neighbor's driveway yes in their garages back approximately where yours is yes which again is is more benefits because there's no way for us to grow grass and make it look nice in that particular space and then secondly our neighbor who lives there is a renter at this time but he can't even really get into his car without the concrete on a surface because it's that close to my house he has to actually have through you know if he has someone let's sort of take it sounds like were two different side yards that we're dealing with right ok so let's let's look at the long long narrow want to mediately adjacent to your your house on the north side ok right without the concrete right what would you need to do to prevent the flooding there and not make concrete i don't think there's anything you can do habitat had rocks in there when we moved in and flooded then and that would be the other suggestion if you get on google like i have to try to figure out how you're going to save your house it'll tell you that you use crushed rock and build drains which i did with a shovel and it didn't work  additionally i just adding with that particular space scenes we're talking about it it's not like every other house if you will excuse be sorry there's a lot of different houses on in that particular neighborhood that have concrete up to the next person's concrete because it's actually a good solution for a lot of things fair enough let's move on to the second question were you at all in any way involved in putting your neighbor's driveway there or setting the grade of your neighbor's driveway you know it was there before i got there would be making their grass and or non concrete in dealing with the flooding be burdensome to you you see any impact to the neighborhood by making their eyes it to impact which i mentioned already no negative impact all right anybody from the borg on any questions of the north side the other area on the north side are you aware that your dream the water on your property to your neighbor's property to the north what happens is because his property slanted arc when the when it rains i observe this when it rains the water meets right where our property meets and runs down to the city drain so your so his his concrete goes sloped into my property and my country is sloped gradually into his what's what's special about your side yard here well i had mentioned that we also have the flooding you know i understand i mean i've been through this situation with flooding and it's like ok well this is w taken like eighty percent guess is that these are the problems right up but the point is like i said again not only have i resolved issues with this concrete in my own yard i've resolved issues in my neighbor's yard because what used to happen is water would sit right where he girls out on our property lot like where our property line meets in the back all the way down from from the back of the property to the fire of the property you'd get a big puddle that would just sit there because of the way the property was and the before with the grass and the grass doesn't diverge water like concrete does and water is looking for its easiest path so with that being said now i mean we had a tarantula rain and i sat there and took a video you can't see everything but you can see the water just gushing down into the city drain from this area and the next day no bottle again which i think was a part of the problem because i can tell you that the walls where that with flooded in the basement the height of where it looked like it was coming in at where those two sides of the house you know how you judge you know where the waterline is or whatever so i'm just trying to decipher the picture here you've got the back porch there pretty much in the in the middle of the picture immediately north of the back porch is that concrete there as well yes ok and then there adjacent to that not all the way there's a little see that you know that well that's a little that's a grassy area ok so could you pull four percent of the concrete out of the backyard either from behind the garage or underneath a tree or something to bring your what you consider the backyard into compliance well if you're asking me if it's humanly possible the answer is yes of course it ok but what i'm telling you is that to be able to actually get my cars and park i mean i really can't afford to and to have the water diverge the way that it needs to i don't have enough property to be able to do those things and in addition to that the property looks way better because of it so why would we want to change that so i'm i'm just looking at ok what's what's the garage a little bit run it down a couple feet towards the the side street there you know and if if that's enough to to get you your four percent right yeah the answer to the question is yes but it doesn't make the look you know we're doing that because of a city order that right has and the reason for the city ordinance my understanding was that we're in a whole college district and you know things nature and i mean i don't want to because it wouldn't make my property look better it would make it look worse and then we're just doing that to appease an ordinance that doesn't that was put in place that doesn't really affect  you know my particular house and with the restrictions on my property i just you know i don't want to have the city says you know what you have to do that i'm going to take it from the back and then i've got a little area that's going to look like crap and is that really what we want as a city i mean i don't think so but if that's what you tell me if that's the city says we won't give you the variance i'm going to take it from back here are there any other questions from the board for that thank you mr trump can i add something sure ok certainly i guess i just want to add i mean i don't think asking for four percent of concrete is really asking for that march and secondly i took on a house thirteen years ago those fire bombed by gangs in the area and i've been somebody with my family who has said you know what we want to be part of making holland better and so i'm just asking you to consider that i'm not a neighbor who's trying to cheat the ski city out of heavy concrete you know i'm just someone trying to take really good care of my house who lives amongst a lot of people who rent as a homeowner and have bought into the city of holland and so i guess i would ask that you consider that the house before there you know we took on a property that nobody wanted for the simple fact is that we wanted to invest into being a part of making habitat you know so ok thank you thank you is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak in support o myself again six ball park drive although i don't live in the neighborhood i do have a comment about this particular house because i worked with habitat in the building and in the last time that the basement flooded when we went through and put in basement drains and some been rich rebuilt the basement basically that house and the house next door there were there close by and that's the way that area is built both of them have basically just a gable roof that falls down the water runs off the roof into between the two houses he does he's going to have a water problem he and i don't know of any way if he solved it if you've solved it with that concrete believe for him and i think it's great i think it will improve it cannot be detrimental to the neighborhood to have a basement the doesn't flood it can't be detrimental it can't change its character there's nothing like that all right that bad he does have children as a city is really about the residence and if you've got a residence is trying to maintain his property trying to do it it may go against some of th zoning laws or so on or and perhaps he would have been wise to try to get the appeal of this variance prior to pouring the concrete i don't i don't doubt that but it certainly is needed i would if i were living next to him and i would say certainly let him keep his country and that's what i have to say thank you thank you very much i just want to add that i didn't have any i mean have a tit poured the concrete so i didn't really have anything to do with that part of it i mean the actual point of it so as far as add any of the concrete no cut so it was a part of a plan that they were hoping we you know with getting my house looking nice or not only looking nicer book keeping it from flooding so anyway there was no why would i come and try to have to edit subcontracted out so many ways thank you very much so no one else here to speak in support  seven college avenue his daughter actually i my bedroom is downstairs in the basement and it's been down there since i was eleven i'm eighteen now and many times it's flooded and it ruins everything down there it's many weeks of sleeping on the couch and i know it's definitely also with having the concrete outside right outside where our porch starts i park right there i leave for work at three o'clock in the morning and safety thing if i have to park on the other side normally of the garage i have to walk i mean it's not super far but it's also to me it's definitely benefit for my parents to not having to get about three o'clock making sure i make it to my car knowing that i can just walk outside and be right there at my car is definitely you have a dimension from the back of the house to the room loved ones i do not i'm just trying to get a feel for how much we need to polo here as needing to remove four percent they were allowed to maybe a certain section of that to be sidewalk might be a little more along the lines of pouring in front of the corner of your house versus very well would someone like me well i'd like to really split this into two considerations if we could i'd like to deal with the the one circle north of the house separate putting concrete to the north side of the house motioned to proof for the north side of the house but he used to have support i'll support support by seller findings of fact plays sure i will find that there is unique circumstances with this property particularly how the the topography is in the water drains  i would submit that there is new construction on this and you know we're having flooding issues and so you know the i don't see this is  necessarily self created by the owner i think he's done everything it is his power not to have flooding issues i think that strict compliance and putting you know concrete you know permeable material on the the north side of the house would be unnecessarily burdensome i think this is the minimum variance necessary for for this situation and i don't believe that it would cause a detriment i'll go ahead make a motion how i'll move the that we deny that there by requiring four percent of the boxed in area concrete to be removed  with the drainage issues so you know to point three it's not unnecessarily burdensome and you know number four that if a variance would not be the minimal relief necessary post to deny the application yes means no yes means no davis yes the hearing tonight and we'd like to open it up for the housing variance that is requested and based on the gender study session we're going to consider this a construction application though the tests know exactly what it is that i'm supposed to say here right now you don't have to say anything either you know you can make yourself available to questions for the board for sure i'm absolutely sure does anyone on the board have questions also in the know would help me and just run through the questions that we need to find one way or the other and noting that you got to see the pictures of my husband in the bathroom to read it to  the applicant and that's the first one would it be a practical difficulty the variances if you grant a variance the building will be adequate for its intended use and not substantially deviate from the required performance for the health safety or welfare of the people and not be general and recurrent the space to the best of our knowledge being in our early twenty's and having no prior experience and my husband has been using the bathroom for the last ten years and never had a concussion or anything like that so just making the best use of it i do believe it's adequate for the use i don't really think that this bathroom impedes you know the safety of the house or the potential for an eagerness issue or smoke develop an someone like to make a motion i'll move we re appoint michael when we're in this chair i second that motion by motion by davis support by by sacchi on favor opposed we have no other unfinished business we need to prove minutes of the regular mean on june twelfth i'm sorry june twenty sixth two thousand and fourteen someone like to make a motion a movie put the minutes most of my davis support support support lysaght her own favor say aye aye aye motion passes to approve the minutes of june twenty sixth twenty fourteen meaning the next meeting date