hi folks they're just finishing up some votes on the floor should be about ten more minutes or so before they get started so we're going to wait till the votes are over and as soon as our members are here we're going to get started so thanks for your patience they might be muted if you can hear us but we still can't hear you we're going to be delayed about ten minutes for votes so as soon as our chairman here will get started and if you want to go ahead and get back on for another few minutes just so is there a mute button on the on the phone console there there we go thanks we just got an update from the floor there are some procedural notions on the floor and going to be about another ten or fifteen minutes so we push your patience all right so that was the second of those the first of the final two votes so this is a five minute vote they've got another five minute the vote after this so as soon as they finish this and then they vote on the second one member should be on their way so it should be about seven or eight affairs hearing entitled united states contributions to the response to pakistan's humanitarian crisis the situation in the stakes will come to order i ask unanimous consent that only the chairman and ranking member of the subcommittee be allowed to make opening statements without objection so here mr bacon of course and i guess in the coming quite a distance we really appreciate it for your help and for your patience i apologize for the packed show you made when you know how legislators can be and how the votes come in they and they take a while and so we apologize to the both of us to be interim ead for the period of time that it took us well beyond the two o'clock start period and thank you for your patience i'm going to waive most of my opening statement in deference to the time that witnesses have already spent substance just say and set the table a little bit here for the fact that over the last seven weeks the pakistani military has of course been involved in an intensive offensive the long and short of it has been of course a lot of people because of the tactics used in the  strikes has had a sizable effect on the civilian population and led to the displacement of many many people the estimates of how many vary but i know some you know of meds i think was about two point eight million about one point nine that this is obviously a situation for those that are still in the areas where fighting rages where curfews and land mines and other conflict issues leave those people frozen they're not able to get out and avoid being caught in the middle of what is happening there there are a number of n g o s who are working to ensure that people have food and shelter in adequate medical supplies but obviously we need more help and more people on that so this is a fundamental challenge there's a lot of work to be done in the short term dealing with people's needs but also would like eyewitnesses to address what needs to be done in the long term and who should be responsible for it and all of the aspects that go forward this is obviously a dangerous opportunity for extremist groups to get in and help people and try to win them over to their perspective but it is also a chance for the pakistani government to step in and organize a rel situation and win the trust of the people there and a long term relationship and gather some support back from the people in this area of pakistan i want to stop at that point in time i'll go and i'll allow mr flake to make it  an opening statement if he wishes and then we'll just go to our witnesses for testimony before we get back to the questions and answers i know members will want to ask them questions thursday both all of you will want to know that we have embassador richard holbrooke and undersecretary the fence michel flown a will be here discussing a number of related issues so things that you say here today may well help us inform some of the questioning that will go on in thursday's hearing as well as the flake thank you mr chairman in the interest of time to submit my statement for the just want to thank the witnesses for their patience thank you very much let me briefly introduce them the witnesses that we have here today we're going to have this hearing and then we're going to proceed to a briefing not a hearing but a briefing for the united nations  human rights group as a second panel the testimony we're about to receive will be from dr samina ahmed who is a south asia project director for the international crisis group there she oversees the i c g s operations in pakistan afghanistan india and the pow in that capacity she analyzes the political social economic and military fact is that increase the risk of extremism internal conflict and war and she makes policy recommendations to overcome those threats from one thousand nine hundred nine to two thousand and university with cherie raman serves as a member of parliament of the national assembly of pakistan from the pakistan people's party from two thousand and eight to two thousand and nine she served as federal minister for information and broadcasting she currently serves as a member of the parliamentary committee on national security prior to joining the national assembly ms raman worked as a journalist most notably as editor of the pakistan based herald news magazine she's a long time activist advancing the cause of better access to health and education resources particularly for women and children from the lower income sections of pakistani society this raman holds degrees in smith college and the university of sussex missed a can of bacon serves as president of refugees international a position he's held since two thousand and one from hundred four to two thousand and one mr bacon served as assistant secretary of defense for public affairs where he was the pentagon's chief spokesman prior to that he worked as a reporter editor and columnist for the wall street journal's washington bureau there's the bacon holds a b a from amherst facilitating this area this hearing the great we appreciate the help there is the policy of the subcommittee to swear in witnesses before you testify so i ask you to please stand raise your right hands laid out quite clearly the dimensions of the problem and the reasons for it let me just say this that we in the crisis group have been deeply concerned about us not just the peace deal that led to this particular crisis in the molokai and district of the northwest frontier province because clearly it was again a peace deal that allowed the taliban to expand their control and once they was popular discontent and of course u s pressure the military took action but that action as you pointed out was hasty it was ill thought out and has led to this massive exodus of people we are asking for on as you say about the threat that is posed by the jihadi extremists in this area with their links to articles the potential that they could exploit this crisis to gain access to more recruits to try and win hearts and minds that is why it is so important that relief reconstruction we have bill attention must take place in a but there is much more that can be done it's important for the us to understand that this is not just an attitude be a humanitarian operation and meeting humanitarian needs but it also serves u s national security interests if we see that you heard these as we are already witnessing on the ground stating that wanted off the situation then we have a problem on our hands we will militants making a comeback we will see them expanding their control once again so it's equally important for us to for the government of pakistan to understand the importance of not allowing ban for any effective rehab alliteration and reconstruction they will be need for civilian law enforcement and the civilian intelligence agencies that can best bring these militants to justice  assistance that is given is urgently true whited it is appropriate it supports a civilian led process and it prioritizes the needs of the non camp i d p since of wash majority more than eighty five percent of these i d p s are in fact living outside government run camps they're living in communities that are hosting amongst communities that are hosting them in shelters in schools it's important to think outside the box and ho united states also encourage the civilian government's desire to enact political and constitutional reform not just in my look and division but also in fatah finally and let me end with this so it is equally and that will only not only undermine the security of the pakistani state and its citizens but also gravely harm us nationalist security interests thank you sir thank you doctor and that we appreciate that and the of this humanitarian crisis that pakistan is facing today it is certainly the largest transfer of refugees and human peoples rather from one place to another in the history of this region pakistan has not encountered anything like this since the migration of refugees from undivided india nine hundred forty seven so clearly our response to the i d p s challenge is of concern to you is more of concern to pakistanis as well because this challenge has become as i said earlier a critical test of our response and our ability the pakistani government's ability to provide urgent relief for the frontier provinces displaced millions and also obviously to maintain public support for the mid of the operation with high human cost these two projects are inextricably before the specific episode let me say the public opinion on militancy was divided down the line and it was muddied by religious symbolism as well as partisan public opinion even today as we speak many religious parties and other leaders have little hesitation the the non mainstream but they are very much in the public discourse has little hesitation in condemning the campaign against terrorism as an american sponsor strategy with leaking again for pakistan and they do conflate the suffering of the i d p with the failure of the state to reach a consensus through dialogue with the militants and as mentioned already the peace that have resulted in the taliban regrouping jihad this forces gathering space and momentum have been fundamentally flaws suddenly in pakistan experience and have almost always generated this kind of jihad this counterbalance to the states writ now for us this is as much a project of reclaiming the last entry reinstalling the pakistan flag but also off expanding the writ of constitutional rule guaranteeing fundamental inside lands which were seriously endangered  under the taliban rule empowering state institutions to function in a sovereign democratic plurality and i have to stays here at this point that time is as much an enemy to this project as terrorism riots say this is because the displacement of nearly three million people over a period of three weeks has caused a huge overstretch on government capacity on multiple fronts in fact the figure i have today from the question is again very compelling and simple if the trauma and done on migrations subhumans can conditions of girl few casualties and lost family members is not mitigated and relief soon we human anguish beginning to drain public results for the military operations which i stated is very essential for reclaiming the writ of pakistan in many areas so the longer this humanitarian crisis goes on the space for the larger existential battle against terrorism shrinks and public confidence in government also obviously goes down these camps remain hard beds and sanctuaries for recruiting a larger mindset  towards terrorism and we have to guard against the states right now all the stretch and provide as much assistance both from civilian support and international assistance in terms of i pressure off another wave of refugees will and may trigger a fresh crisis and a main issue of concern is that the once terrorists are flushed out they will be able to or may be able to reverse all gains made at such high human cost so this is something to think about and these feel that the u s can and should intervene and perhaps in the gobble with goblin the commission to start maximizing opportunities for border interdiction at this point because there is very little symmetry in terms of the effort pakistan's putting in on the border and  other side especially from obviously goggled now the other thing that is of concern is that there is a sense that the international community has been slow to respond to the crisis only a small amount of four hundred thirty million dollars pledged has actually been translated into goods and relief and i cannot help but reiterate the magnitude of the crisis and the ability of government to cope at such short notice and with overstretched abilities the un also has warned that its appeal of five hundred forty three million dollars in emergency aid is still unmet and if by july i would say next week or so the deficit in international commitments continues at eighty percent which it is right now food supplies to the camps will be severely compromised and of course this will be this will be a represent a fresh humanitarian disaster oxfam has also testified this and so has the world food programme and the government of pakistan has k to fifty billion rupees in the budget for our efforts but i fear that these will be diverted to full food provisions and urgent supplies in terms of police again taking away from the cash grants or vitally needed for refugee and the space needed for reconstruction and rehabilitation of the international community can certainly provide the other members of the international community but i'm not stating that there is a good sign again on the ground that while all governments in pakistan have shown a below average ability and capacity to execute budget allocations there is no comparison to th to the aid reflux of u s money when it is rerouted back through internet series and contractors basically the sense here is that we are getting something like forty to fifty cents to also the order of the day reconstruction of infrastructure is a critical concern i'm told that gas water and pipelines are being really very urgently but again we must be arrangements that are put in place for government oversight and civilian security to the area once again area of concern that is being stated is that there is a little sense  again of how much what the cost pakistan has and god in terms of this ongoing battle the budget the recently announced twenty five billion dollars in good by pakistan and as you know  but aid in flows not just to the refugees because that is a clear and present crisis but also to the next step before we send refugees back to an unprotected environment this is essential for us to look at launched and this is something that we certainly don't want to countenance and pakistan and we are hoping that the united states will be able to use his good offices and leverage in the trilateral commission to to deliver on the basic obligations of governance justice and social service delivery those are diminished as we speak because of the overstretched but on security fundamentals as well finally i'd like to say that we must enable our c thank you very much for your comments of course your written remarks and articles that you've written of also building the shed with the committee and we'll have some questions for you after mr baker's dozen or so thank you mr bacon you recognized thank you mr chairman for holding this timely an important hearing the obama administration has made clear that pakistan is one of america's most important strategic partners and now that partner is afflicted by one of the world's most rapidly growing humanitarian emergencies refugees international independent advocacy agency has been surveying displacement in pakistan for more than a decade pakistan generously hosted millions of afghan refugees during the soviet occupation this crisis is different because it involves the displaced and the pakistanis and because it has risen so quickly sadly the current humanitarian challenges are likely to get worse before they get better the government of pakistan is expanding its current campaign against the taliban in the south waziristan which could trigger additional displacement and the monsoon rains are about to begin complicating the provision of supplies and raising new health and sanitation challenges such as cholera as re refugees international team recently returned from pakistan were surveyed internal displacement it found that one the needs are enormous as most have fled without anything and sought shelter in camps or with relatives to the un and aid agencies are struggling to respond to the most pressing needs but funding has been scarce furthermore the funding has that has been pledged has not been distributed expeditious meet the needs that have arisen or in the most effective way through the relief efforts have so far been focused on camps whereas the vast majority of that's east over eighty percent are staying with host families who are quickly running out of resources one aid organization has reported pockets of starvation and trauma amongst the population remains a protection priority women and girls are particularly vulnerable changes for changes in the way the united nations and the pakistani military are operating could reduce displacement and improve humanitarian response five all parties the u s the u n and the government of pakistan must prepare for further displacement and six it is premature to expect internal refugees to go home an independent team should assess the status of the sustainability of returns to respond to this humanitarian emergency the u issued at the end of may a five hundred forty three million dollars humanitarian appeal this latest appeal includes emergency relief projects by all u n agencies and a number of international o s and calls on donors to respond generously and immediately to one of the largest displacement crises in the world despite the urgency of the situation and the cities you can portents of the region the response has been insufficient and the appeal remains severely underfunded with only twenty six percent of it pledged today the appeal for food is less than fifty percent funded the protection cluster of the appeal is only one percent funded today the u s has been by far the most generous donor with one hundred sixty four million dollars during this fiscal year a further two hundred million dollars request was submitted by the obama administration for congress for emergency funding to aid organizations as well as to meet levels of u s funding to the un refugee agency and the international federation of red cross and red crescent says these is encouraging at the conference report for the pending emergency supplemental has the house and senate agreeing to an emergency appropriation of two hundred twenty five million dollars equally important the funding should be directed toward the international disaster assistance account to assure it is distributed efficiently to meet the needs of internally displaced people i hope the congress will quickly approve this request the humanitarian community in pakistan has raised the has praised the u s office of foreign disaster assistance for deploying an emergency team in the field and for responding quickly to funding requests from n g o s it is crucial that congress support these efforts and approve the supplemental request so it can be quickly distributed despite having a donor coordination group other donors have been noticeably absent until now has shown limited generosity the european commission's humanitarian office just to now see twenty two million euro contribution well the u k so far has provided twenty two million pounds but much more needs to be done at the international community wants to respond effectively to humanitarian needs today he al hussain a member of the refugees international board of directors and i are sending letters to the office of the islamic conference and to foreign ministers ambassadors of arabic countries urging their generous support of the humanitarian appeals have attached a copy of that letter for the record the lack of sufficient assistance to the displaced is already having serious consequences according to the u n h c r most of the new arrivals in the camps were previously staying with host families they can no longer afford to do so and they are and are therefore resorting to putting up with heat temperature rises to one hundred ten degrees fahrenheit during day and poor living conditions in the camps the government started to distribute twenty five thousand pakistani rupees roughly the equivalent of three hundred dollars to each id people family but is now backtracking saying it might only distribute the sum of money to half of those registered is unclear where be able to get the funds this is both a humanitarian and the security challenge in the development the refugees international as this elsewhere and which my fellow witnesses have commented  on the vacuum in assistance is being filled by politically motivated actors to gain popular support in allegiance according to international and national aid agencies political parties active in pakistan have set up shop in th camps and amongst host communities and provide various services from distributing fans to providing mobile phone cards to the displaced the majority of international aid organizations and u agencies work through local partners because of their expertise and their ability to access remote areas many pakistani organizations also obtain their funding from foundations and donations in parallel to the un cluster system local organizations are a critical part of overall relief efforts because they have in depth knowledge of the environment and sustain programs over an extended period of time from a financial perspective they are also much more cost efficient than international n g o s as there overheads are much lower what's more using local organisations helps to build local capacity in strengthens pakistan's humanitarian infrastructure i hope that the us will work with the u to encourage greater participation and greater funding by local n g o s in conclusion well the displacement crisis in pakistan is near a year old its magnitude this go of the needs and its political implications of this crisis have not been fully grasped before in capitals the international response has been part to slow the ongoing humanitarian operation is only the start of what will have to be a prolonged and massive aid effort displaced families need immediate relief and in time will require renewed confidence and support to return home in safety and dignity the obama administration has repeatedly stated of the region and is seizing this opportunity to show concern and leadership it is not merely a question of funding though the humanitarian assistance and reconstruction efforts will need robust financial commitments the united states has clear national objectives in pakistan and these can be advanced by showing concern for the fate of civilians and for helping pakistanis to meet their needs and to build a more peaceful prosperous future thank you mr chairman thank you mr bacon appreciate thank all the witnesses for their testimony we're going to go into a period of questioning here we generally do five minutes for each member and then circle through again there's almost more material here that we can cover and one hearing what will do the best we can continues to dominate key is to to sions and that undermines the civilian capacity the the question i would have is does the civilian government in pakistan have the actual capacity to take charge of this relief prospect both in the short term and in the long term play planning for return it is their willingness to try to signed to the military a different role than that of running the relief program one of the problems lies in the fact that the civilian institutions have as a result of almost a decade of military who will certainly lost some of the capacity that they originally had this is not to say that the bureaucracy the civil the rock to see and the civilian government lacks the capacity to plan like the light ministries of the civilian government lack the capacity to implement and certainly and it's very important right now for us to understand you need a civilian face even more so because of the history of this conflict and how it has unraveled to have the military run the show in terms of relief or pan ahead as it seems to indicate right now a change taking charge of reconstruction is to talk about not just a centralized approach but to an institution that has very little knowledge off and a very poor record of working with civilians and with civilian institutions this undermines that entire process of ensuring that communities are empowered and that they are a part of the process as my fellow witness said local n exist they have the capacity local governments exist they have the capacity elected governments exist and let's hope that we can build that capacity as opposed to falling back on strengthening the do what is the pakistani government the parliament and the prime minister doing in terms of asserting leadership on the really the relief effort well i think what's going on here is that over the reconstruction activities yes the military might be a better partner for the heavy lifting you see the united states making any concerted effort to actually focus its aid to local n g o s and more local enterprises that have perhaps better more knowledgeable relationships or are they still moving through the military in pakistan and other centralized aspects where we might run into the danger of losing some forty fifty cents of every dollar is raymond said earlier well it's my understanding from talking to him bassett holbrooke and his staff that they are very aware of the need to build  capacity and they see this once one as a mandatory and challenge but two as a great opportunity to help build civilian infrastructure in pakistan so my hope is that they would be paying attention to this  certainly usa id is clear on the need to deal with local n g o s and there are as dr hochman said many capable local n g o s in pakistan many of them did very good work during the earthquake  with the earthquake in two thousand and five and we need to build on that that capacity and and bring these people into the system in a much more effective  who are acting on our behalf without making it seem like a military effort with so many military there to protect them how do we strike a proper balance well that's precisely  one of the reasons for using local n g o s because they are pakistanis who live in the community they know the people there and they know the habits and the risks that they face  international contractors are harder to protect than the local people so the advantage of the local n g o s is that they're well known quantities they're seen as providing aid and help to their neighbors and they can do this usually  much less cost than bringing in and people from from american contracting firms so security generally is easier for locals than it is for internationals not always across the board but generally much easier with that comes a risk that you don't know what you're getting sometimes i mean you you can bet it's usually tracked with that how do we ensure that we're not  witnesses said great deal of antipathy to the taliban and what people are looking for is effective aid and help right now so i think again we rely on local intelligence and local capacity to inform us on who's who's good and who's bad is not you are the first person to join the conference it's not foolproof but it's it's a way to start it clearly they know better than we know and we have to build trust in them and give them a little bit of of operating room and some money and clear guidance clear  goals ways to evaluate their progress metrics and work with them as as we do with their own contractors and we obviously put restrictions and directives and mandates on the aid that we is operating there too for example legislation that we just passed is it going to be a problem aligning the goals that we've laid out with with other aid organizations i don't think it should be i think that we and u n h c r and the international federation of the red cross red crescent societies share the same goals we want to fact to programs we want to splay spent and we want poverty and we want to find ways to work together so i don't think this should be an issue at all it was mentioned that most of those who are displaced find refuge with family members or others and view in these camps or somewhere else well since eighty percent of the people aren't in camps we have to find an effective way to get aid to people who are living with the local population this is both good and bad camps are adequate place to be but it is easy to deliver aid medical care food etc to people in camps when they're centralized it's much harder to do this in a dispersed population  t through a good registration process which the u n h c r is set up it's possible to do that but it is more time consuming it's more expensive and it's not as easy as it is in camps on the other hand people are generally much more comfortable in private houses than they are in camps but we see there are reports of twenty five people living in a room in some of these houses so these are not  cushy conditions for the displaced people it's very very difficult for them to be absorbed by generous host families thank you raman are you are you with us we want to just make sure it's all hooked up very good and i apologize for actually joining the hearing a little late after some of the testimony but i think that all of us see in recent events some positive developments but also obviously some potentially dangerous developments and i speak a positive obviously i'm not talking about the internally displaced people but i'm talking about the fact that the government of pakistan has taken the threat of the pakistani taliban seriously and deployed their forces in a meaningful way to try and address the threat the unfortunate consequence of course is you do have internally displaced persons you have lots of refugees within pakistan and challenge for all of us is to make sure that these individuals these families get the support that they need  are many children in fact according to save the save the children's rapid assessment of the i d p s fifty four percent are under the age of eighteen and more than sixteen percent are below the age of five is there anything in particular being done to address that population obviously the population is you know mixed in with their family them but i don't i'm interested in whether or not special efforts are being made to help the most vulnerable among them well first of all women and children are always the most vulnerable in displaced populations and there is there has been some progress i know that the pakistani ministry of health has in the midst of this crisis been able to vaccinate five hundred thousand children against polio so there is special attention being paid to the health needs of children they're also working on a program to improve  maternal and child health care in the midst of this is well so the government and its partners are paying a lot of attention to meeting the health and nutritional needs of children and this is a question for for all of you what's your best assessment right now as to how the the government of pakistan with any help they're receiving from the international community how they're doing in terms of providing support and resources that are needed and juxtaposed to that how would you assess the extent to whether some of the components of the taliban are able to take advantage of this situation to try and provide social services as well because as we all know this is in some ways a race for the hearts and mind in a fight for the hearts and minds of the people in these areas and when you're hungry and displaced you will turn to services wherever you can get them so how would you evaluate as of today the extent to which  government through all its different mechanisms is providing those services and to what extent do we have information about whether are not the the taliban forces in the allied forces are providing are coming in to try and fill the vacuum and whether or not they're successful so i got back to well it's a very comprehensive question and probably my pakistani colleagues better answer but first i would state that  i hope that the government of pakistan can find a less disruptive and intrusive way to launch this military campaign one that concentrates more and reducing or limiting  displacement to i think the government is doing a good job but is not getting the support it deserves from the rest of the world and it needs far more resources than it has three i do believe that  it's an opportunity to build local capacity and they should concentrate more on doing that and for in terms of the of the taliban that's my assessment and i have not been to pakistan recently that the government has a great opportunity to show its concern for the people and impact to seizing that opportunity and the taliban is quite has created a lot of antipathy on the part of the people so this make it a challenge for officials and a state of ministration people to go inside homes many may be more comfortable than they are in the camps but they are certainly not living in conditions that are anywhere near optimal or what they were used to in their own homes and mostly situated in homestead and back to you on outside on the ground in people's homes twenty have to worry about a larger influx into the school buildings and camps that we see over you now as far as health interventions are concerned i think yes the health ministry has been working very hard both the provincial and the central but here we do need a great deal of assistance it's not just a question of vaccinations women especially for women remain inside that sense they are mostly not able to go out  except some girl children and of the temperatures are very high they are not they don't have access to lady doctors and levy has visited we just saw only needed in much higher densit of a state that is allowing its citizens to suffer that is that is not the case but the point is that what ever the government is doing at this point and it's not enough and while civil society has stepped up to the plate recently and again the good news is that every week you do see a change in the availability of services in each of the camps the pressures on the camps in terms of health interventions as i said as well as a community participation which is now becoming more and more available but we do need to coordinate these efforts better to avoid even in the international agency offices unable to go with the numbers and the magnitude of that if you do scumming in so i you know to repeat the case that there is a great deal of assistance still required partners able to discern those leaks are or is that something that we should be concerned about have fled from tonopah the controlled areas where they witnessed the most brutal nor facts there were murders public executions women deprived of work girl children not allowed to go to school public property seized this population sees that thought about as criminals and so they are what is parties or with mainstream local n g o s if anything as mr mon stressed they is at this point in time in pakistan a real opportunity because not just in the law to see justice and to see these criminals brought to justice what's important for us now is to make sure that this opportunity that exists is exploited to the fullest because if you don't assuming that that's what we're trying to get away from how does the local population react when we we try to ban those jihadi related relief efforts or is that group was banned once by the musharraf government reemerged under changed name and it has resurfaced again under a changed a it's the responsibility of the pakistan government and i think it's important for the united states to  though that islamist political parties are also there and have set up their own activities and you know that's again an exercise of attempting to win hearts and minds have the succeeded thus far i don't think they are the immensely under the civilian government when the taliban are now being cornered criminals and murderers who should be brought to justice as opposed to what we heard in the process that their jihad these this is are also religious parties like all other political parties people have set up camp but it is nothing like the jihad this intervention in terms of aid relief that we witnessed in the earthquake of two thousand and five i'd like and charities and dense operating everywhere and they sometimes stick cover in religious parties denson and offices as well but it is nothing like the efforts you saw earlier is dictated largely by how the local community is partnering with the government and international agencies but i must say that it is heartening to see the narrative of an human suffering every day and this does every time we see groups and television crews arriving at the camps we do see a blow to public consensus against  cost the pakistani people as being yes they may have been less intrusive with to conduct a military operation and we mustn't get complacent at this public opinion that is building up every time  as i said there is public anguish over that the i d p s suffering and the humanitarian crisis questions and hard questions are asked in the public domain about the  to see and long against that we can make and hold in terms of a military operation as well as the political gains we make from it so i think this is something we have to get prohibited a banned under the antiterrorism law from participating in relief efforts do all three witnesses believe that that is a wise thing to do and if that is what they see is the impact of shutting off that type of aid to people who may not have the power to do it and i think it's it's instrumental in building local rule of law as well it fits in with that mr mann yes i think that this is a problem that we've been have to expand outside the frontier province even have to take it to other problems as well namely the punjab and even have to address provincial capacity and they have to do it it's not something that we have i haven't seen our ability on the around to do but this would be something that a lot of that we can consider as the next step and it's an important next step dick and doug and i met i suspect you feel it can be done that's why you recommended that it should be done well we absolutely believe it can be done the police in pakistan despite the fact that its capabilities do need to be built on we did a report on police reform and we were heartened when we talked to senior police officials to find out that they really believe the only way to goal was to arrest these criminals and to prosecute them and that is in fact the p internally displaced person crisis is a function of failed military policies that have enabled militancy to spread for several years the second statement is a quote by the head of the push our base geo is the military is trying to improve its image by controlling the relief process there is indeed little reason to believe that the military will be willing to work any more closely with civilian institutions and elected representatives than it has in its counterterrorism efforts and lastly the military's long standing links to jati networks and its appeasement deals with militants the latest with the swat based taliban have also understandably provoked doubts about its intention in the current operation there if there is a peace deal it is conclusive evidence that nothing has changed there are members of congress i among them who are concerned about giving united states military aid to pakistan without conditioning that aid on the military's ability and will to not cut another peace deal but in fact continue to assert themselves against the extremists forces on that basis so that the public in pakistan can have a justifiable confidence in them condition upon the military's allowing the civilian government to extend the writ of law to fight and enough was fronting a province and bring the justice system out there in the rule of law on that basis and members of congress thought it was important enough to not vote for other items in the supplemental bill because those conditions had not been put in now that's just a pose of course of but with the two hundred million dollars that is in the bill for relief i hear from each of our witnesses that they think both of those concepts are important is there a reason to think that passing the money for relief might not be money well spent if in fact the military is going to cut another deal with the extremist elements and not allow the civilian government to take over the relief effort and in fact not do many of the things that we talked about here today the emergency response unit and the frankly a civilian government there is a special services group which is run by mid teens and the special support group rather that is being run by  a member of the military we don't see their operations as at least in the field very evident we see everywhere downstream working off the local outfits but all the warlords that control it a tree and cutting peace deals as a result of the state inability to maintain its executive rich in the area these all of us have to for the state so i think these experiments that we need to avoid and i must say at this juncture that the provincial government of the frontier was very much involved and very forthcoming in to take that translated that experience into other areas as well thank you dr ahmed how important do you think it is to condition military assistance on a more committed military effort to go after extremists and to allow the civilian government to extend its writ and become the primary mover in relief efforts and in rule of law or if it's i think conditionalities on m assistance which are very clear and confined to military assistance that do not extend to economic stroke development stroke relief assistance would be if signal tree you know one of the things needed to be care about it's in the military zone it because what we've seen happen to this country in the past eight years as a result of peace deals as a lack of resolve because of the lack of resolve of the military and because its failure to then allow the civilian and law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies to act the groundswell of opinion we see now i think it would benefit the pakistani medically benefit the pakistani people and benefit the united states make no the one of the quotes in the report was from a an official indicating that in bog in the union council over dear there was a military check post and a half a kilometer away the taliban check post the question obviously was why doesn't the military just take a little trip down the road and eliminate that situation and things like that continue to do exist and continue on let me ask one last question at least mr flake as were the nature of assistance that's going right now we understand about the food and other commodities that have to be brought to people immediately but there was a great emphasis on reporting mr remount also mentioned it and i think mr bacon did as well about changing the nature of the leaves in some respects to a cash basis for certain reasons for the job training or to restart the economy or to allow people the self respect that's needed to continue on dr would you speak briefly to that of the other witnesses have a comment on it that would be appreciated as well in particular about if we knew the benefits of doing it and whether or not we can have any accountability with respect to it absolutely i think it is important that in the pakistani context as opposed to perhaps other such similar situations it is possible to do it in such a way which will not only empower the communities that we would want to address but also ensure that they is actually oversight and monitoring the richest ration process might be slow but there is a national identity card can the card be used for their multiple purposes it can be used for it can be used as a debit card which is income support let's not forget eighty five percent of these i d p s aren't living in the county they are living with most communities who are themselves very poor so just that ability to support the community through simply access to find the money that they need i think is one just for sale cash transfers for vocational education documentation that's possible there's a banking system so in these areas it is not as though you cannot monitor this far more carefully in fact  with communities as well as those in the camps that is a great deal of anxiety about income opportunities being lost to displacement as well and there is danger of mass distribution influx of refugees on the way down into the south into the city of karachi which has become the largest bustling city in the world and this is something we need to consider all the way down stream all the reforms all those programs that are looking at now move outside the front tier province as well and bring into that ambit refugees dispersing all over the country particularly the very volatile  governance i'm sure some structures can be built but conditioning it at any level right now will be politically difficult for the government to sustain in terms of engaging strategically and suggesting that our strategic all become a major issue in pakistan it will not be seen as separated which is unfortunate and perhaps i would recommend some kind of joint monitoring system because this is a very sensitive  my last question i would just be is there anything that either of our witnesses would care to add since you've been kind enough to wait as long as you did do they have a chance does via coming such a long distance any thoughts that you want to leave us with before we close out the hearing that we might not of have a building and we can certainly go with flushing out militants in the long run but again the word flushing out implies that we haven't been able to either decommissioned or integrate them into society we have no programs for any such thing and right now i think our experience of the militants has been that they are not able to decommission law be reintegrated in any significant numbers so it's important to look at how communities form it's not i think we should be very clear that once the operations are over and citizens resettle even the social transformations in these areas will need change they will need institutional accommodation  we may not be able to hold back to say three that i live on my left and we would have to integrate non elite voices and communities that have been marginalized and to bring women and the collective really important for us to remember that what we're seeing right now is the result of a p c the taleban expanded they control not because of their lives across the border but because they were allowed to go to a peace deal sign with the local authorities devise by the military there is some indication that there will be framework of this relief reconstruction effort if the united states and u s officials stress the negative which is well if the good the civilians have enacting political administrators and legal reforms that will bring far to the mainstream these are not helpful it would be far more helpful if the obama administration all refugees want to go home and everybody wants them to go home but we have to make sure that when they go home they go home to secure insist able communities if they go home prematurely this problem will not end so what we have recommended is an independent verification process to decide when it's safe to refuse to go home and and to follow that so we don't get premature force packs i know that this is a big issue for the pakistanis and it's a big issue for the u s as well but i just think that we've in the past seen high cost from premature returns and i hope we can avoid that here thank you thank you as the bacon for your testimony today but also for the work that you do in your organization those were all indebted to you for that thank you sir dr ahmed thank you for the work that you do in the international crisis group in various places throughout the world it's always helpful to have insightful  facts and information and you provide that on a regular basis and i know members of parliament and congresses around the world i rely on that work and appreciate a great deal the honorable sherry rehman thank you for taking your time today i know things are very busy over there and you were very nice to take your time and give us your valued opinion insight into what's going on i know that i speak for all of my colleagues i would suspect that we say how sorry we are that you have such a difficult conditions in pakistan at the moment and we wish you only the best in dealing with that situation relieving the suffering of so many people as you know congress has acted in is a process that i think again to try and add some relief to that  know that everybody working together can make it as comfortable as possible for people in an already bad situation and we only wish you the very best in making that happen as quickly as possible so again thank you all very very much for your testimony thanks again for all of our witnesses good afternoon good afternoon thank you for joining us i'm sorry that there was so much delay with the votes earlier on to push back a little bit and now i want to make sure we get started on this so that we have votes coming up a little while and i don't want to continue and make you have to wait for after those votes so let me just  at the u n h c r serves as a reminder that you have so many staff over there who are dangerous conditions repeatedly and at the bravery to put themselves in a position to sacrifice of themselves and their families just a guy who done serves as a regional representative for the united states in the caribbean for the united nations high commissioner for refugees his career with us a c r expands more than twenty five years and includes services in africa asia latin america america and australia frequent flyer miles are building up he's worked in pakistan as a field offices there and prior to his posting in washington served as a regional representative for u n a c r in beijing tended the university of bodo in france thank you again sir for making operating in pakistan for almost thirty years starting with the afghan refugees and through these thirty years the success of the operation has been you'd want to the tremendous welcome that the pakistani population and government have given to the afghans but also to the very sustained effort by the international community to support that project through how these years our main implementing partner in pakistan was the afghan commission so to address myself to one of the question you asked previously there is expertise in managing these sort of situations in pakistan expertise that has been tested over time we first got involved these i d p s in august last year with the movements of persons taking place out of the drawer agency in the federal administered tribal areas and after that from the mothman agency and by april we had registered some five hundred fifty thousand people who had already left since the end of april in early may we have witnessed the speed and size the largest population movement seems the exodus from rwanda some piece ten years ago not for the same conditions i'm not trying to compare the situation but certain terms of speed and size has been said we have now about two hundred forty thousand people living in camps so it's a little bit over ten percent out of the two million that are have been confirmed by the very cation of the registration we do have some hundred thousand who live in camp like situation in schools or in public facilities that will have to be given back to their normal use in july when  the schools resume and we have an increasing number who are moving outside of the risky area and moving into punjab and seen the now it is estimated that there may be up to three hundred thousand people moving in this direction our response is part of the broader u n response in which we have assigned three responsibility which is protection shelter and kind of management i'd like to address very quickly what we do in the each of these chapters and then address myself to the challenges we face in the coming months protection is essentially registration we are supporting the governments to the register the i d p s in for those population who are living with local people in villages and towns it is the minister of social welfare who is doing the registration in the camps is a commission of going refugees and here i would like to stress something very important that for population leaving the conflict area the government has maintained registration in the hands of civil authorities we sing the seas essentially it's not assessing what happens you know other areas of the world and we value very much this response by the pakistani government and we're also supporting not drive in the ver double or triple registration as may as may be happening registrations allow us to give id cards to identify vulnerable groups to start working on family reunification party for children who've lost their parents in the in the in the exodus and to make a determination of who we need what sort of assistance so it's an important it's a very important protection tool we are trying to look now at other issues of protection that always happen when people see the sort of conflict with the gender based violence which is unfortunate something that affects population who suffer the sort of conflict in whatever continent that we are we've experienced this in europe in latin america in africa and pakistan would not be exempt of these sort of issues but we're just at the beginning of looking into these particular delegates the issues in terms of shelter we have to remember that this is a population of mountain population was coming back in lowland valleys they're not used to he impact the camp management function is basically identifying new sites right now we have twenty one camps this is not enough the camps are quite congested and we increasingly have people moving out of the families with whom they found sick or at the beginning address very quickly to changing whether the monsoon is coming with the monsoon we will have flooding we need to make sure these places appropriate drains and with the floods will come the scorch of malaria again something that is mountain population are not used to and that can be have a devastating effect on these population and then a few months after that we have the beginning of winter which we will require winterization of the camp so we have quite a few challenge in terms of adjusting the conditions in the camp to make life as bearable as possible to these people who are in camps and who are who are very crowded the second challenge is that we need to develop a system to distribute items to the people who stay with families as we say to the majority of them we have developed about eighty hubs together with a real speed so that food and non food items can be distributed we are in the process of responding to those people have been far from reaching them all a present but this is certainly one of the challenge we have to make sure that the burden they bear on the local population is as reduced as a spa sibel we want to register do those who have left punjab the government is not very keen for them to receive assistance i suppose because they don't want to generate the pull factor but that he wants we have to register them so they have a nice idea and therefore they have a protection mechanism for that's another spread out of our operations to pressure on the local population but returns have to follow a certain series of principles they must be voluntary they cannot be subject of political expediency to just demonstrate that things are better we will have to place before we can really make sure people go one of our role in return would be to gather information to make sure that displaced people have sufficient information and are happening down there eventually hobbling to go and see it settle but not  press and urge returns as i says a matter of political expediency we much too often suffer the sort of pressures and this would be dramatic because it would be reverting to the cycle that we have just just witnessed in this context we have two  great difficulties to overcome one is funding a lot has been said about that the response of the international community remains rather tepid we had initially within the un make disappeared for a lead with over five hundred million our share of that was one hundred five we got funded for about forty percent right now we have reviewed our needs in light of the recent figures of two million we need just fo are about one hundred forty million i suppose the other agencies will see an increment of the same order and that means we're funded to about thirty percent of our needs and he's not counting on possible additional outflows from was east on where what these at risk in pakistan the certainly on the part of the pakistani i'm not sure on the part of the rest of the international community there is such a sense and in the very words of my high commissioner dysmorphia response to these crises is not severe and the second big challenge we have you've alluded to it at the beginning mr chairman security concerns are important then we are in the process of trying to balance how can we develop a field presence that is efficient in responding to the needs without exposing our risk we have to take some risk we have to make sure these risks are not exaggerated and we are right now in a review on how we should operate to reduce risk to our syphon to make sure we can keep on working there was certainly evidence that the pakistani government is actually styled the planning that will have to be involved for the return of eventually the social scene that they can be returning this summer or this winter probably in like we were looking at next spring at the earliest is a gives them a fair amount of time if you see anybody actually doing the planning for all that will be necessary to be to bring people back in a safe environment and one that gives them as you mention the health care in the education and the jobs structure present i think there more talk about returns than actual action the government has committed itself and this is absolutely welcome to reestablish public services as a basic condition for for return i think we have to realise that in in the past years recession's of the services but it instead of this anything to be removed from budget or last august last year are still in the camps and there's been almost no return so i think it's going to take more time than we think despite the the talks back on the security issue with your colleagues being killed there just recently private security then did you say for your ploy private security guards as well as are they augmented by  security from local police forces how does that work well by by definition we want the relief efforts to be dealing from the military operation so we cannot operate relieve us part of a more militarized the effort and we want these two things to remain quite distinct so we have usually private security guards in our offices across these are very good against the state that they don't tend to be so efficient against more more politically hard place to to security or what what one way would response or if i may is probably by having a lighter food the presence of international staff and starting to work much more t recommendations back about the talent that is in pakistan the quality of people there that are able capable of doing this work so your organization is in fact reaching out to many more of the domestic pakistani population to try and help with your  ts as well yes i think this is where we are going to go our director of the edge of your head of security and emergency services currently in pakistan to make a review of our operation after the incident last the last week and that will be ready next week and i think it's a difficult balancing act well if people want to go of course this is their choice and with there's nothing you can do so and the risk of course is that if assistance is not good enough and their situation becomes terrible in the places where they have found refuge right now and they go back because going back is the worst of turning t v then we have a recipe for catastrophic daigle because they really feel they have their or tries to detain them they want to re homes etc and we are convinced that the return is only treat we have to help them what we must avoid nice pressure for them to go back as a sort of symbol that things are back to normal when all the premises have international community how are they going to be impressed with the urgency of this so that they perhaps step up and fill in some of the gap between what the united states providing and what the u n thinks is necessary i'm not quite sure right now as i said the u s has been our main supporter of europe is not showing tremendous desire to respond we are trying our best to convince them as i say that it's not just a question of moral obligation with that we all have a voter interest in helping pakistan and sometime appealing to the self interest of nation can can can help the high commissioner will personally go to the gulf states i think in a week to try to also ask for their assistance they should also understand that they have immediate interest in the situation of getting out of her they haven't been overly responsive so far have you know it's interesting  with where the parents are doing something or whether they've been just left there without any indication of where the family is gone we are not quite sure and this is something that we have a call the attention of the government on that and we're working with a commission of other refugees to try to sort out these issues as more and more people either leave their host family because the burden has just become too high or at the school buildings because they're going to be put back to educational use and hospitals or other buildings what is your estimate right now of how many additional camps sites will need to be constructed over above the twenty one that exist now i think we're looking at ten additional sites but we have to make sure that the sites are they can be trained properly that we can bring is a crazy to try so i again i do not have the exact details but i think we are planning for