too this hearing will come to order good good morning i am all time go a member of the subcommittee chair brian baird is on fortunately unable to join us this morning because of circumstances beyond his control and so i will be chairing the first portion of the hearing which will focus on investigating the nature of matter energy space and time today's hearing will explore the deal we office of science research activities in high energy in nuclear physics and their collaboration with related programs and projects carried out by the national science foundation and nasa as well as our international partners in one hundred thirty nine albert einstein sent a letter to president franklin roosevelt warning him of germany's advances in creating an atomic bomb this spurred the president to begin the manhattan project which gathered many of the greatest physicists of the twentieth century from all over the world to successfully beat the germans in a race of scientific and technological progress after the end of the war many of these physicists remained in the united states to resume their research of the basic nature of matter energy space and time field also known as particle physics our country has historically supported significant research programs in these areas from this point forward today dio eat alone has proposed a twenty ten budget of over one point three billion dollars for particle physics and related technology development which would continue to support about four thousand scientists and over one hundred universities and nine d o we national laboratories in this hearing i hope to get a better understanding of what fundamental questions remain to be answered and what the american taxpayers are receiving in return for this investment this subcommittee certainly supports exploring fundamental areas of science with uncertain or even unknowable outcomes but the level of that support should always be well justified the administration's high energy physics advisory panel made important progress in this direction with the release of its ten year strategic plan which set research and project priorities under a series of realistic budget scenarios i look forward to learning more about whether and how this plan is being implemented and with that i'd like to thank this excellent panel of what mrs for appearing before the subcommittee this afternoon and i yield to our distinguished ranking member mr inglis for his opening statement thank you mr chairman and thank you for holding this hearing this subcommittee is held several hearings in the last few months examining the diverse mission of ideal he's office of science we've heard about their research efforts in inner g v go technologies and biological sciences today we turn to perhaps the most fundamental research activities in all of science investigating the building blocks of energy and matter so we're here to learn at the einstein level and i feel somewhat unprepared for glass class i must tell you i think i know this much though in the manhattan project we found a way to harness the energy of atoms for weaponry of massive strength fifty years later we're searching for the most basic understanding of the nature of the universe out of this research we gain understanding of electricity communication technology x rays and other conveniences we also delve into the fundamental nature of matter energy space and time inspiring our insatiable human curiosity to answer large metaphysical questions about why and how current lines of investigation this field are very exciting we are simultaneously exploring the edges of the universe matter we cannot directly observe and a particle that lends mass to everything around us while this research will give us some interesting answers that will certainly inspire many more questions and that's what science is all about i look forward to hearing from our distinguished panelists about this fascinating course of research and thank you mr chairman i yield back the balance of my time thank you thank you mr inglis if there are members who wish to submit additional opening statements your statements will be added to the record at this point now will enter use the panel it is my pleasure to introduce our who will be our first witness dr lisa randall who is a professor of physics at harvard university we welcome dr randall as do we dr denis cobar who is the director of the office of high energy physics and former director of the office of nuclear physics at dio we and  in illinois for me labs a large it accelerated in the united states and under dr dhoni leadership is been a vital tool in advancing our understanding of the universe dr don't need to sing wish career has spanned four decades taking him from m to princeton to california where he served as a deputy director of the lawrence berkeley national laboratory and was a leading researcher at stanford linear accelerator center or slack as a stanford alumni i'd like to move from berkeley to stanford he is most celebrated for inventing a new kind of particle accelerator that asymmetric the factory to help us understand why there isn't more anti matter in the universe i think there dr donee for being here and look forward to a morning and again welcome dr donee and finally we have dr hugh montgomery who is director of thomas jefferson national accelerator facility the jay lab in newport news virginia  we as we began are hearing from our witnesses might just make a point of information available we have just been solicited to vote for what will be a series of three votes i'm told that dr randall's testimony a slightly longer and her fellow witnesses so what i think may work best here is to hear the testimony of dr randall and then allow for us to go vote and then  resume the hearing if you can bear with us please it seems to be like in washington i'm learning as i go so with that please dr rand l do you have to just thank you for having us thank you here today is kind of amusing it's a little bit like class on the first day when everyone is sitting in the back here afraid to hear about the physics but what we're going to tell you today what we'd like to tell you is the kind of questions we're exploring today we're exploring the universe at larger and smaller scales and the ever before and that's really important because that is the way we find out new things we get away from what we experience in our everyday life we go to these extreme of distances and energy which is why we have these extreme experiments that are set up astrophysical probes let us see out into the universe where particle physics experiments currently fermi lab and hopefully soon l h d we're going to look at smaller distances higher energies than we ever have before and what it will try to convince you very briefly is that we could be at the verge of revolutionary discoveries and i just wanted to say a couple of words and i'm not going to read all of this but the questions are abstract we heard about the manhattan project in the introductory remarks we hear about applications i think it's always very important to keep in mind that when these fundamental discoveries are made no one has ever predicted what their applications would be yet they've revolutionize the universe and i think they're just there are so many people out there who just want to know the answers to these questions that's one of the reasons we're here it's one of the reasons we're a leader but it also is what gives us leadership at universities it's one of the reasons we have the best universe is the smartest people here that could then go on to do physics and other things so i think it's we don't want to get too focused when we ask what is the application of any particular project because in the end the results seem to have worked out pretty well goals as particle physicists are to understand battered both basic elements in the forces through which they interact you all probably know about the atom but we're going inside the atom we're going inside the anam to explore what's inside the nucleus what's inside the nucleus seems to be particles called corks held together through forces called the strong nuclear force which is communicated to particles called blue ones but in addition to those particles we know about that are there in all matter we've seen there seems to be heavier corks we know that there are heav course we don't know their purpose we don't know why they have the masses that they have we know of four fundamental forces we don't know what the relationships among them are or should be and these are the kinds of questions we're trying to answer and we really are on the verge of getting some insight into questions about math and fundamental particles very soon we don't know like of course not just have a list of particles a list isn't that expensive but we want to really understand the connections we want to understand what is the underlying theoretical framework which connects them all because that gives us some deep understanding of what is fundamentally out there we're not just trying to enumerate particles we're trying to really see what is what is the fundamental description and how does this work that fundamental description might be connected to something as exotic as string theory which is based on the idea that rather than particles with fundamental oscillating strings it could give us a deeper understanding of space time this is quite remarkable but it could be that understanding space better could actually explain properties of fundamental particles particles could be separated within a context of even extra dimensions of space and if i have a moment i'll mention a possibility but really trying to answer these questions has led us to some very exotic scenarios but they're not just out there as crazy ideas really it's following through it's not just metaphysics it really is trying to follow through what are the consequences of what we see and what are the ways within the confines of theories we do understand that we can actually solve these questions we're also working on connections to cosmology particle physics of course we know what's out there we know how the universe has evolved knowing how the universe as evolved tells us about fundamental particles and that's given rise to some very interesting connections to for example dark matter study and this is probably hard to see but basically this is just stating that there are some pretty big questions out there in cosmology which primarily what is out there in the universe what constitutes the twenty five percent of matter that we haven't seen yet what constitutes the seventy percent of the energy that seems to be out there that we don't yet understand  one of the questions that we really do hope to address this looks more complicated than i intended but one of the questions that we do want to address now is a question of what is the origin of the mass scale that we know about  know right now right now experiments are exploring something called the weak energy scale it's a particular any to scale it's about one hundred to a thousand times the mass of a proton when we relate energy a mass equals mc squared and then that energy scale we really will answer some of the questions we've had of particle physicists for the last thirty years or so questions like why do particles have mass why do fundamental particles have mass questions like why is that mass scale what it is and the interesting thing is that quantum mechanics and special relativity tell us that the mass scale just doesn't make sense unless there's something else very interesting happening at that energy scale that is to say we expect to find some indications of some new underlying physics that could be as exotic as extensions of symmetries the space and time extension of space itself it's almost inevitably going to be something profound and i'm sure that my fellow panelists will talk more about this but it's really a particular interesting time there's a large hadron collider is about to turn on and really we do hope to see some answers this question and this is just to say that it could be that there that it could discover evidence it could just discover new particles that could discover what you've probably heard of called the hi particle but it could discover particles that even travel in extra dimensions these really we really do have reasons to believe that there is very interesting new physics that is really right around the corner if we can explore these higher energy scales and just to give a simple example it could be that when we climb together protons we make this new particle that travels in extra dimensions what's so interesting is that these particles even though they're involved in extra mentions and i know i haven't told you what extra dimension but that we have dimensions beyond the three we see but it could be that even though those particles are there they still can take a back into our universe so that we can see them in these elaborate detectors that have been built that i'm not going to have time to tell you about but i'm sure my palace or so it seems i've actually stuck to time which is kind of amazing mostly because i from new york can talk really fast but but we really do have a new worldview at this point that is to say we're about to embark on an investigation of the scales at which we're fairly confident we should be able to find out what's happening and it was so interesting is that same energy scale could be connected to the dark matter of the universe for reasons i don't have time to explain but feel free to ask and it could be connected to even the scales that will be explored with gravity wave detectors it's very interesting the scale has appeared in several different contexts and there's many new results and theoretical physics there's intriguing possibilities for a universe we've seen that how the theories can connect together the ideas but it's very important for us to to really have the experience that tell us which are the right directions and these are all very nice ideas at least we think so but we'd like to know which are really out there in the universe we're not just doing abstract mathematics we really want to know what is it and any of these discoveries would be things that would make us really change fundamentally view of what the universe is made of some of the most exciting physics that we know should have answers is involved at this week's scale that we're exploring there are many questions and many energy scales but we are at the cusp of exploring an energy scale which we know i interesting and as i said it's also involved in dark matter experiments so this is wonderful overlap of experiment cosmology and theoretical development and this could be a revolution in discovery and how can we choose not to explore if someone is going to close with my favorite picture which is  shows that there could be a lot more out there in the universe than amusing fact was when i put this picture in i didn't realize it was the chateau do see on the painting that's there which is right near cern so thank you thank you very much dr randall and  very interesting testimony and thank you for the sidebar compliment regarding new yorkers we have your we're now going to recess for about twenty minutes and dr kovoor will resume with you leading off with call hearing back to order we heard the for the votes we heard the testimony of dr randall so hopefully won't be interrupted again by votes but it's possible we will be but right now we will move on to chairman and ranking member anglers and members of the committee thank you very much for the opportunity to testify on high energy on the high energy and nuclear physics program of the department of energy of the office of science i'm done escobar i served as director of the nuclear physics program for nine years and since october two thousand and seven i have been serving as the director of the office of high energy physics i'm very pleased to be here today to share with you my perspectives on these programs the scientific fields of high energy and nuclear physics emerged in the first half  twentieth century as physicists began to study the fundamental constituents of matter and their interaction in the one nine hundred fifty s because of the great activity and the interest in these areas the department of energy's predecessor agency the atomic energy commission established research programs in the scientific fields these research programs are now in the department of energy's office of science their mission is to delivers discovery science they do this by nurturing developing and supporting the research capabilities needed to position the us at the scientific rentiers of these fields to make significant discoveries and advance our knowledge high energy physics our particle physics focuses on discovering and characterizing the fundamental building blocks of matter while nuclear physics fun focuses on understanding how these fundamental building blocks combine to give rise to matter as observed in nature in the laboratory over the last half century the department of energy programs have delivered outstanding discovery science in the united states has emerged as a global leader in the major scientific throws trust of both fields the results have been impressive twenty of the twenty six nobel prize awarded in high energy and nuclear physics over the past fifty eight years were to physicists in the united states supported primarily by d o b these programs have over this period had an in more and norma's impact on society through the new knowledge and technologies that emerge from their research the use of enable applications in industry computing medicine and pharmaceuticals national security and other scientific fields both programs have now develop strategic plans for maintaining us leadership roles and participating in major discoveries and the scientific fields in the future these plans have been developed with the input of their respective federal advisory committees the broad national and international scientific community they've been formulated to address the most promising scientific opportunities in a manner that will compliment and enhance international efforts so as to optimize the science that will emerge globally the department of energy's high energy physics and nuclear physics programs also have important stewar components that serve the department and the national needs beyond the scope of research for high energy physics program it is fundamental in the long term exaggerator science relevant to next generation accelerators and for nuclear physics   is isotope production development and production us scientific leadership and the associated benefits to the nation are realized through sub stain federal support and by federal investments in scientific and for structure and research facilities our understanding of the laws of nature in the physical universe have profoundly been altered by these discoveries made by us facilities by us scientists these discoveries reveal new behaviors that really raise new questions and in some cases totally unexpected questions the scientists these questions inspire curiosity and wonder they inspire ingenuity drive innovation and motivate discovery and the results are out the resulting advances in technology and knowledge sir both science and society that concludes my testimony thank you mr chairman for providing this opportunity to discuss high energy physics research programs and our plans for the future hearing before i and for size some of the points in my written testimony i would like to start with a personal note i grew up in peru far away from any ability to do anything any of this kind of research and in the fift the u s was the beacon for this type of research wonderful discoveries were being made the frontier was being expanded and i decided as a teenager i wanted to be a physicist and i went to my parents in one told him so and this was a very strange notion for them and i must say they had their wisdom and probably they instead still forbidden you to actually send a seventeen year old onus on to the united states to study physics and so i'm here after five decades of participating witnessing  contributing to these tremendous opportunities that have been made possible by the federal research in this basic field of science and i hope that you in the future will continue to support this as your predecessors have done that would pay or each particle that we know about with another one with different properties of angular momentum would more importantly expand our notion of spacetime and how we see spacetime in relativity physics is would be terribly disappointed if nature had not used this symmetry it's so wonderful by god it should be used in nature we are neutrinos studying this very elusive particle accelerators with nuclear reactors using neutrinos from the atmosphere and this neutrinos may in fact explain why the world is made out of matter and not just a soup of photons that comes from the annihilation of matter in one time matter in equal parts of the universe and further we study the cost of us and we realize that everything that we know about is about five percent of what is there dark energy and dark matter dominate the content of the universe the us has been a leader in this field three exists through its existence and that's a point that i want to emphasize but that leadership is now in danger the field has become global we use facilities everywhere where we can do the physics europeans is so powerful in advancing the field depends on a balance investment of the various regions and that has become at this point unbalanced and that's where the threat comes from we have closed most of the facilities and in two years we closed it to have a drop in the us whereas other regions have built facilities that now give them an advantage in how they approach this field well it is a problem but it's a problem that has a  by the n s f in the home to take mine in south dakota and the program as is presently the sign also opens the possibility for the return to the energy front here that is now dominated by the large hadron collider in europe by developing accelerator s necessary the technologies necessary to make progress after the l h c let me conclude maintaining leadership in this fundamental field is essential is essential because it as the most fundamental questions it is hard to imagine leadership in science for a country without really attacking these questions it develops new technologies as it expands and moves the frontiers of the world as we know  we're always pushing the envelope of technology and this has led to computational and communication technologies that webb is an example the particles accelerators that we have developed for use in medicine in industry for modifying materials in homeland defense and security and so are the detectors that are very complex and we have developed and finally it contributes to the education of a technical workforce most directly through the intellectual involvement every major physics department is involved in particle physics but also because it tracks young people to science this kinds of questions really like it did for me attracts young people to science that may do many things as they develop their interests and if people w entered this career are prepared to work in large disciplinary teams and make advances kolob collaborative across the world in this complex global environment in us must remain a beacon of science and a leader chairman ranking member inglis and members of the committee for the opportunity to appear before you as you might notice i have a slight accent i've been an active researcher in europe and in the united states for my entire professional i'm currently director of one of your great detractors the thomas and jack thomas jefferson national accelerator facility jepson lab in newport news i'm going to concentrate a little on the nuclear physics aspect of this hearing the hearing h immutable title investigating the nature of matter and energy space and time could be argued that there has been the program since man stood on two legs indeed for those of you think that nuclear physics does not affect you i pointed out that nuclear physicist studied the building blocks that make up ninety nine percent of the mass of our everyday world since nuclear physics was born about a century ago much as being aligned and some of the fundamental structures of nuclei have been delineated but much still remains mystery now while nuclear physics is a basic science is also important for the impact it has on society some of which i mention later our field also creates a cadre of highly intellectual highly educated individuals capable of addressing the problems facing our society through research trust provide the framework that defines nuclear physics each of these thrusts offers the potential for discovery each is a way to examine the universe and the nature of mat flows through the right part of my heart nuclear physicists are essential not only in the university classroom but also its human role critical roles in society in fields such as national defense environmental research and in industry these working scientists make essential contributions to the education of our citizens in the six increasingly technological society now the united states continues to be a leading world leader in the construction and operation of these and other facilities rick for example well under penner superbe science program for the next decade or more and on the horizon where developing an electron are in florida that will form a crucial cornerstone for the field in the subsequent decades in summary nuclear physics is a key contributor to science and society i believe it's an endeavor worthy of the support of the people of this country i'd like to thank you again for this opportunity and would be happy to try to answer your questions and if i could just use the orange time in my presentation i'd like to suggest that we read the panels behind you it says on the left for i dipped into the future for a human appreciate you point those out and those are here in the room and i think few of us ever look up there and see what was written i remember when i first started on this committee that i that i did that but  it's something that would that we forget to look at and we forget those you know those messages up there for us now i think all the witnesses for their testimony and it began right now the first round of questions   this is obviously a field that is not easy for everyone to understand and i don't claim that i have a great understanding of all of it two years ago when i was visiting stanford slack i had the opportunity to meet peer schwab i don't know if anyone's familiar with him but where we stood out about mr schwab is that he is calls himself a high energy physics groupie he is a entrepreneur a software engineer he's not a physicist but he's a man who's fascinated by the research that we're discussing today and the fundamental questions it can answer he donated a million dollars of his own money to stanford kavli institute for particle astrophysics and cosmology now i bring him up because you seldom see anyone outside of people who are physicists really getting involved talking have having the interest in what we're having a hearing on today i know dr randall has done work to make extra dimensions and we're passage is more accessible to the lay people think we need to do more of that especially in the time of large thermal deficits increasing the expens experiments you know just trying to get the money to be able to put towards this research so my question for for the whole panel start with dr randall what can deal we in the research community in general do to better communicate its goals and triumphs and plans to the general public that's an excellent question i just want to start saying that i have found when i talk to people that once people have the opportunity to hear about the science they're interested i think a lot of people are afraid or will be stay away from it but once you take seriously the fact that you're listening to them that you want to hear their questions they provide opportunities for people to hear about it there are many more people are interested than you would imagine that's not to say everyone is and i don't even think government should be necessarily but people that want to know about it should have the opportunity to know about i completely agree with that and i've seen it many times i've been in small towns where they kept i was like really you're doctoring about this and then the lecture hall would be full i mean thousands of people will show up to listen to this kind of thing if they know about it having said that i think that's a difficult question i mean that's more almost a r question you know how do you how do you make people aware of things what we say we are because we have to respond to our constituents and to the american public unfortunately you know if you want to look at it that way for the scientific aspect of it that is that's not it is right in a negative way just so you know it's just that this is not it's not my area of expertise i mean what i did is i try to say i made a big effort to write a book where the information is there for people who want to know about it so that it's accessible to them so people who want to understand the science can but i think that there's a lot of people who watch t v who read newspapers that don't want to read a book and i think the answer there is that it really has to be out there a chance should be out there more in the news it should be out there more in t v media i think that is where people get their information and i think there should be more a sense that people have that they shouldn't be as afraid of learning about science believe you i mean i think they want you to know that they're worried they want you to know they're listening to them that you address these worries and that there's interesting science there and i think that there has to be more of that opportunity and i don't know where that would be but i think that science reporting i mean i do worry that in this era where newspapers are facing troubles that science reporting will be one of the things that gets cut and i think that's exactly the wrong direction to go in at this point especially when science is so essential to so many things that we're doing today our community is learning how to do this better and better at fermilab we hold for example a public lecture roughly a monthly basis we have nine hundred people lisa randall was there from the community come in listen to this through our education program with children saturday morning physics i think representatives bigger son actually took advantage of that we reach many many children and we have programs to train teachers so we actually working with a new generation probably touch of you know reach two thousand teachers and some thirty thousand case with twelve students on this on this activity and i think we have also created vehicles like symmetry magazine to reach a much broader audience and so i think the community is getting much more sophisticated about actually realising that it is ultimately the public that supports our research and they have to be part of this adventure my theme is a little similar to when i arrived in newport news or your and a half ago the lady next door came with cookies and introduced herself and asked me what i was going to do and  and i told her i was going to be director of jefferson and she immediately launched into praise for the laboratories participation in the science education in the schools around the area i think that that certainly where we have the labs then the little bit of funding that goes towards the education and the involvement directly with the community is an enormous winner for everything associated with the program and the kids that come in and visit  think you're right on target with that is something that a passion of mine and i actually have legislation to encourage the national labs to work with the museums for science education and we are  we have votes again but at this time i'm going to move on to you mr inglis recognize mr inglis for five minutes and will decide how we're going to proceed from there so mr westerners believe probably to a person that the reason new yorkers speak so rapidly is to cover up that they don't know what they're talking about but you effectively disproved that here just a quick question my curiosity unfortunately being a good member of congress takes about eighty hours a week which of these be no time to keep up with modern physics that what you mentioned string theory is there any theoretical work and that's because it's addressing questions that are simply beyond the energies and distances that we can explore having said that though it is important to understand that string theory has also given rise to ideas that are x and accessible ideas which are still rather exotic sounding to probably most people here including ourselves such as extra dimensions of space or such a super symmetry which here mention i mean it's not that i gave actually developing string theory led to the developments it was written which might be around the corner or it could be at low energy so i guess my point is that even though string theory itself probably won't be tested and probably in the foreseeable future that's not to say that it's not giving rise to wakefield acceleration plasma wakefield acceleration or are being which may or may make it possible to have a tabletop accelerator that you can use for medical or for or for  scanning materials for security there's a whole there's a whole range of opportunities and we are organizing a workshop in washington d on october the twenty six where we are bringing in a group of experts and the people but people from the scientific community from the medical community from the security community from the industrial community and those interested in or gene environment and we are going to try to identify those areas in which there are potential  for significant at dance months and what the impact would be in terms of on in terms of productivity or in terms of breakthroughs and we're going to put that together we have a workshop and there's going to be a report to the office of science and and the office of high energy physics and hopefully we're going to you will see in that report exactly what that potential is going to be but i think there are there's i think it's extremely important for the nation we historically had been leaders in accelerator science and in terms of accelerator technologies because of the investments that pierre mentioned and asia and europe for next generation capabilities those investments have been made over the last decade you now find that that technology has been transferred to those  economies that prefer vendor for certain accelerator components are no longer in the u s and so i think it's extremely important for us to make these investments i think it's important for science but i also think it's very important for speaker and as you know he's very interested in science and technology he gave me the science of writing a national science policy which was a huge task for one person to try and his first year in office the we actually did it was the first one written since the endless frontier in one thousand nine hundred eighty five which shows that the scientific community was just resting on their laurels in terms of just going ahead i'm not toting that i've wrote a extremely good report but one aspect i pointed out in there and that is that most in many areas fro of research were becoming so difficult so expensive so complex that we would be forced into international cooperation if we wish to proceed i recommended that  recognise that and created proceed on that as a policy it didn't happen as part of our policy but it's happening in fact or no developing in france we simply we'll come back you can think about the question in the meantime what mechanism should our nation set up with other nations so that this will be part of our policy and not happenstance that hate to interrupt you because you certainly have the great knowledge here up here amongst us we are i think at this time because of where we are on this boat moving on to another question may take a little bit time unfortunately we are going to have to recess and ask our witnesses to you come back again probably twenty five minutes i will run back after the order unfortunately things work very differently here and congress and they do and in the laboratory you can do we call the way unfortunately and don't doesn't give a lot of time for concentration but we are we are back and  which i keep forgetting to turn out is two different things out there dark matter and dark energy and dark dark matter we really are i would say we're on the cusp of understanding dark matter we have we have a real hope it's really at the scales that we're about to produce we have many different types of experiments that look at both directly which is to say there's the point is dark matter doesn't interact very strongly so in order to increase the probability you need huge target so they're huge targets of whatever they could look for dark matter or there's other types of astronomical experiments that look for the annihilation products of dark matter so dark matter can annihilate with itself and produce things that we can observe astronomically like photon or  what ice cube could be connected to is dark matter dark energy is very mysterious and requires a whole different set of types of explorations which we could talk about independently but dark matter is stuff that's just like particles we know about it's just that it doesn't interact with light as much but it means that it has particle properties that we're familiar with and so what we can look for in something like ice cube or is for example annihilation products that come out it when dark matter from dark matter and elections or studying neutrinos directly so you have these big basically big targets which allows me to basically you know buying a lot of lottery tickets you know you're increasing the probability of even those neutrinos interact so weakly you're providing the opportunity for it to have some interaction that you can actually record right so what is the thing we've heard since percentages here this morning but what it would is a percentage that we think we know of energy we can detect some percentage so the amount of stuff that we know what it is is really is very small it's maybe five percent this is a batter and let's just say that stuff that we really understand like the kind of matter that here in this room that we're made up of you know it's funny because everyone is always shocked to find out that twenty profile percent of dark matter and seventy percent is dark energy but i was actually find it kind of remarkable that the stuff we know about is as big a fraction as it is why should the rest of the universe i mean because we're just making a statement that interacts in the way the stuff we're familiar with it that is to say it interacts in a way that it emits and absorbs right which is really the only way we've had to see things really to see its interaction with light is essentially what we've how we look out into the universe and it could be that there matter that for whatever reason it doesn't emit or absorb light or does it at a much lower level and that could well be dark matter the really interesting thing theoretically seems to be that it could be connected to the very same interaction scale that we're probing is because what do you need to have what do we need to actually have dark matter out there well you need something that stable that has indicated and you need something that has the right density to be out there in the abundance that we see today which is to say when in the early universe we can predict how much annihilated how much is left today and its interaction scale is set by this very same weak scale it turns out and it could be a coincidence or could be something deep and meaningful that it gives you the right abundance to be dark matter today so from that perspective it's actually if there really is something new in the week scale which we assume there is perhaps it's less mysterious why there should be dark matter out there so the matter that we know of as we know five percent ninety five percent then would be in the category of dark matter well said twenty five percent dark matter so matter it's stuff like made up of particles that clumps together it forms galaxies that forms objects the rest of it is something which is even more mysterious in many ways is something that einstein told us was allowed it's it's just energy and it's called dark energy but really it's just energy that can be out there permeating the universe it still emits gravity but it doesn't so it's not acting the way matter act it's really just there in terms of its gravitational effect on the energy that's distributes throughout the universe and it's quick it's a very big mystery i mean it was one of the major discoveries to realize that it is there at all but why it has a particular amount it has why it has a comparable amount to the rest of the matter that we know about why it's not huge which is what actually quite mechanics and special relativity it's one of the big mysteries that we face today so understanding dark energy could lead to i want to first say i'm very interested in what you are doing in the work you're doing and had a long interest in physics in general but not anywhere near compare myself to a good friend dr but i've had a passionate interest in it but at the same time as stewards of the federal purse we've got a ten trillion trillion dollar you know you say twenty and he said that can't be right yes ten trillion dollar debt the deficit is going to see exceed a trillion dollars and to be perfectly blunt you all are some pretty expensive into the science spectrum and there's an awful lot of other things we could spend the money on so help us understand what do we get for the money i mean i've got to go home and tell my fishermen and my loggers and my steelworkers and my laborers and my whole makers in my nurses and everybody who's tax dollars are going to fund your big projects where we get four  tackle that one your i a brave man i admire that so i think that first the first thing that you get out of it is really a place of different here the opportunity to expand knowledge and is in a way that is very powerful if you think of how our civilization will be remembered centuries from now it's the progress that we make in understanding the universe around us is what will really be enduring and will remain as understanding for humanity and i think when we invest in this area of science we are at that frontier and we're expanding that frontier so i think it's an opportunities inspiring for young people to go into science and it's something that i think responds to some very deep human emotion of discovering what the world around you so that's the first thing that we're motivated by and what you get but when you do that when you are a different  and what when you learn something it's past and you're now put it away and you think well what i don't understand is the next step you're forced to invent to stretch that technology to really take things way beyond the place at which you found them and if you look at the history of particle physics we have done that from the beginning of accelerators and detectors today you can look at how we use accelerators medical accelerators the in accelerators in industry to modified materials to put ions in place how we have learned to do very fast pattern recognition with computers a drover early computer technology how when we tried to tackle this global projects physicist invented the world wide web as a way in which they could all talk to each other across dozens of countries dozens of different technical platforms the tools that come out of accelerator physics are employed now in light sources in neutral sources to have a wide variety of applications so i think the second thing you get is that drive that says this problems are so hard and yet they're so inspiring that it leads to invention it leads to us really thinking very very hard about what are the technological barriers that prevent us from actually responding to those questions that we saw was there and so i think that's the second part that you get i think the third part that you get is the fact that this type of science really influence is science technology engineering and math education in a very broad spectrum at the highest spectrum of very technical people if you look around the universities this type of research is a vital part of any physics department it's part of the intellectual part of our universities it brings students and they work at this problems and is part of the miracle of american enterprise that the universities in fact contribute so much to our development across a broad front and science is in a very important part in asking this question is a very very poor important part with bringing students into physics and in technical careers we see it at fermi lab at a much younger age a marvelous program very talented people two hundred volunteers are going to the community so i was of children that come to fermi lab and it is an inspiring thing to ask this question and try to understand how the world is put together these deep mysteries of dark energy dark matter while that world is dominated by matter and not matter and anti matter they ask the most profound questions very unlike the question you just asked in the sense that they don't ask about why you know your cost us a lot of money and and why should we be doing this they really only ask the questions that that intrigued them and they are brought into this field and they may not come in as high energy physicist someday but they have been inspired to look at the world in a different way so i think those are the three things you get thank you dr mangum you know i'd like to respond  little bit in the vein that we talked earlier i referred to myself as direct jepson live one of your great attractors i wrote an article which which appeared on the front page of our website in which i tried to explain that in fact when you when you're sitting in europe as i once was or in china or in japan and you look to the united states you you don't only see harvard you actually see  and broke even national lab and whole b l and stanford linear accelerator and those great detractors actually bring scientists both students who come here but also the participants in the experiments and some significant fraction of those people actually want to stay and given our difficulty in educating our society to a level which you can actually function in today's technological age country to study physics that's a good thing you did it when you did because if you tried to come to this country now to do it you'd have a much more difficult time getting it and we have spent time lobbying with the state department and homeland security to try to ease his transition of scientist and i was just telling dr baird the other day about my son who is a geophysicist and has left this country and go  to a very attractive position in europe germinated be specific and when he came men no prior information went down to register took fifteen minutes it was all over compare that to what you have to do to import scientists for the countries so i hope you will join with both of us in trying to to impress upon the congress and the government homeland security and so forth that we  really have to be certain to allow the scientific talent to continue to come into this country because if you don't get that talent now of other places they can go and you're not going to get your next generation of excel writers have you don't get in the next generation of really bright people so just a little editorial comment there i didn't have much in the way other questions were great it ready answered some questions about dark energy and dark matter the just getting  asked how the world is coming together so that for the nate next major facility it doesn't happen speak cause we decided to cancel something like this with we're conducting supercollider i think there are multiple levels in which this international collaboration happens we have many relations laboratory to the laboratory there are very healthy so if you look at devon tron for example c d f in d c over forty percent of the collaborators in physics are from europe forty percent of the capit contributions have come from europe if you look at us at the large hadron collider there's been a very significant investment of the u s in this facility we participate in it we have a remote operation center at fermi lab and it's a great opportunity for us i think these models have worked and they represent a facility that is either regional or national with international participation where there is an anchor facility or region that basically establishes the facility and invites national participation that model has been very successful for us there are new models being explored for what might happen in a great new global facility similar in scale to the l eight c where many countries would come together to try to do that and there is a group it's not officially constituted i think it's more of a club called funding agencies for large colliders in which all the agencies of interested countries from euro the u s china japan russia and so on participate and they are trying to coordinate that global global issue to see if we build a new facility how should we decide where it goes what kind of governance should we have and so on so the level of world cooperation among the agencies is now much higher than ever before in trying to understand how one would move such a large facility the other comment that i would make uncertain as your remark about perhaps we ought to do something with cosmic rays that might be cheaper and either way i not very serious i understand but i should say the following the the observations that we make of the cost most the natural world lead us to all sorts of questions and contradictions and that we want to explore but ultimately we believe this finds the risk lucian in understanding the particles and that in the fields that underlie all of this in we don't know of any other way really to explore that world other than with accelerators we will find phenomena we may find a dark matter particle for example deep in the mine the natural one and then the question will be well what is it and i think until we produce it at the large hadron collider we will not know really what what is behind  find dark matter in the mine you might want to go to coal mines so i'd like to address your question in two pieces also first is that not all accelerators a the same in fact for nuclear physics what we would really like as i mentioned in my testimony is the if you and that in turn allows me to point out that in fact we sometimes discuss how are we going to build the next big accelerators on the accelerator is what we're  ability to build accelerators of different types and if you look at the laboratories that you have then you'll find for example that jefferson laboratory was well known is well known for its super conducting radio frequency acceleration technology but it's not well known for magnets and then lawrence berkeley lab is known for magnets a little but it's not known at all for superconducting radio frequency and so in thinking about the next accelerators that we build the laboratories have to work together and so it's important that the office of science in general department of energy may be more broadly ensures that these full spectrum of capability and accelerate the science was a be magnets radio frequency technology or whatever that is required to build the accelerator in ten or fifteen years from now is present in one or other really are different ways of exploring new physics and the essential point to high energy sellers is that it's the only way to directly explore what's there and we can get all sorts of indirectly but if you think about it and any other context of real life whenever you've had an injury clue you very rarely that what's really going on only way to really understand the details of what's out there is to get to the energy so we can make these kind of things and explore their properties that's not to say that we don't learn a lot by exploring the cosmos but it's a very deep sort of thing of course if you want to know if something's dark matter the cosmos is actually a very good place to look because that's where we know it's lurking but if we want to understand detailed properties of the fundamental nature of matter the kind of experiments that we can do when we can have you look at the super going to think super collider and which was really a lot of money spent got nothing really out of it and i mean out of the failed project in texas and large hadron collider you know tremendous amount of money great expectation you fire the thing up and it sort of self destruct but not entirely understand but we now read the sort of well that's ok you can still do some pretty cool stuff and i'm paraphrasing here but but it's certainly i'm sure you're nobody's more disappointed than you folks in the scientific community but there might be one group of people a little bit more disappointed that be the taxpayers who say look we put a hell of a lot of money into this thing on promise that certain things will be achieved and now it's not going to be a cheat did that happen in lots of other aspects of government there'd be investigations i mean you guys would be here before one of these very un pleasant oversight committees are somebody glowering at you and you know and you get to skate i mean partly because you know stuff we haven't a clue what you're doing and i think that's need my or your knowledge and my or your intellect but there is there is a  kind of a core responsibility that goes with it that says bob and i and the rest of us up here we've got to go to the fore mentioned people i talk to and we've got to say jim we're going to take your money and invest it on your behalf and you get taxpayer dollars and one of two ways either people trust you which is rare or you threaten them which is the underlying motive and say we're going to put a gun to your head and take your money to put it towards the large hadron collider which then is going to melt its connections the first time we fire it up where walk me through your mental process because it's not just about the cost and yes there are some neat things that happen this side effects and some need direct this coverage but there's also opportunity costs the opportunity cost to the folks whose money we take is i could have spent that on my kids education a new car repairing the roof whatever but the opportunity cost in the broad societal skiffs scale is we've got thousands of other problems and the money we spend on the big gizmos you folks work with this money we can spend on other things that might actually have more immediate and more direct benefit to a society and economy that are in trouble walk us through how you other than just gosh we're really curious or really want to get this how do you rationalize the economic cost i mean how do you say yes if we spend x amount of new money on the new i'll see which will then afterwards have the next i l c or whatever how do you do it give us some insights into that what goes on in your heads and in so let me let me tell i cut it because of course this is what i have to do every year when we present our budget to congress so so there are a number there are several ways of answering this question i think so one part of it has to do with those things that that we have control over and so within the office of science  we work very hard to set up project management practices so that when we start projects we bring them in cost on cost on schedule and they perform and we work very hard to do it but you've got to remember that everything we do here that is sort of along the line of what pierre talked about is a one of a kind generally it is an advance it is the next it is it is defining the state of the art it is so it is it is high risk part of the part of the benefits that we have and i want to point out that our contributions to the l is sitting there and it's working i mean it's the best we can tell knock on wood i mean it but it's it's working on the other hand i want to point out that that's a very complicated machine and there are two gentleman to my left who who know about these much better than i but you know it's the most complicated accelerator that has been dealt and so and down the road it's going to run it's going to work but it's not good right now ok give me two months from now i want to start running a lot of people will breathe a big sigh of relief but it's the expectation it's going to run at some point ok now part of this investment that the country has made we have already reaped the benefits i mean that next generation of electronics the silicon to produce that for the for the facility in france that was developed and us it's going to be spent in the u s during this period of time there's a whole generation of students and it turns out twenty percent remain in the field the other eighty percent are in industry they're in government and national labs security medical facilities so it turns out those investments are the investments and it i think the thing that you also get and it it's the part of part of this is when we and i'm going to repeat a little of what p r and  mont described i mean we are we are in fact addressing these questions that just are spectacular in terms of their interest and the general public you know my cousins and my uncles in texas that they appreciate it i come and talk to them and they just fascinated by however there's a whole bunch of questions where they're remarkable breakthrough but there are so technical that only the experts can really appreciate it and we should develop the way of a language so we can communicate that to you but the other part of this is  all of these benefits to society and it's it's it's a job that that any program manager federal program manager has in trying to convey exactly what these benefits to society are and how do we document that in a way that you can explain you know my wife is a nurse you know she she can she understands making people better and what the benefits of this these longer term we really need to articulate that better ok and i thin that regard i think the office of science now has put together a workforce plan where they're now beginning to invest and bringing in kids and teachers to our national labs and at a much larger scale and so part of this is i think educating the american public as to what science is experience you know giving them some some contacts and i think all of these are things that i think are very important but you know in the in the context of health care and social security down the road national security i know enormous responsibility and these are really very tough problems but in the context of it you know you know and it was earlier before you came in we looked at what is on the wall here and you know where there is no vision the people perish i think some of these longer term things are just very important for our society i'm not sure that i answered your question but my best it was appreciated and i thought it was very also a number of devices which you have supported which do work which have been spectacular successes i know for example that that you may not that but it's certainly true that that our colleagues like like cobar and some sitting behind actually apply if you like metrics to the way our accelerators perform and each year as a lab director we i submit  performance against those metrics and and that falls into the money that we get in the subsequent years so that there are metrics and we are successful in a large number of the accelerators and it's not confined real scientific measurements and return on your dollars in general i just wanted to make that point so that it's not entirely a question of you know did you deliver on the l h c yet or not thank to say a couple of things one is just a basic fact about the accelerator which i think is important to know so when the s s c was designed and and started to be developed so this is sat down and said what would we like to have if we really could make it machine that will really probe the physics that we know is there that we really want to understand and that was the design people came up with and with the l h c they had an existing tunnel and that's that's important because the existing tunnel had a fixed size the s s e would be much bigger which meant that magnets had to be stretched to the limit of the technology that was possible so everyone knew when the alleged she was being designed something that is pushing various technology to limit and when that happens there are often times when things don't work immediately so just in the context of asking the physics community i mean i think everyone in the physics community at least in this field would have said yes if it was would have been the obvious way to go i still think if we could fund it would be the way to go and had we done that it would work and just i mean importantly the mind the tevatron where it is has been remarkably successful i think it doesn't get enough education because it's been extended to energ beyond what was ever prepared in the beginning so when physicists have the opportunity to do what they're really want to do when they're when it's available it has been successful and in terms of the elegy it's just i mean we are disappointed but it's just a question of time at this point which means just to get this thing up and running but the s s e would still have been a better machine it would have been three times the energy there's just no comparison and so i mean i do think it's tragic that that was stopped and it had been running by no  i think in terms of the other questions you asked i mean this is something i actually curious about whenever they compare science funding it always gets compared to you know i don't know saving babies or something i mean there's a lot of things we spend money on that aren't necessarily directly working for them and i think in terms of when we ask what it is to make progress we really have to think about what what is what is the role of government what do we want to be funding what what is it and the government is working on things that wouldn't happen  otherwise if it's something that's general interest is going to take over and it will happen it's things that are more strategic more long term that ultimately will have benefit but don't necessarily have them in the next second and the kind of physics that we're doing i mean it's it's a different type of science than a lot of other types of science in that we're formulating very precise questions at very remote energies and distances and we will make progress and a lot of the other types of science very important but it's not always you hear a lot of buzz but that's different than actually making progress in the sense of twenty years down the line you can say what do we have and here we have some definite goal and we do know what it means to make you know that that's not to say one should be done at the expense of another but it's just a very different type of thing and i think there is a strong argument for it i appreciate the struggles that you have with the many practical problems that the nation faces and how to make this judgment about what should be invested in this and at the end it really has to be justified by the resorts now is not fair to say the s s c was a bad idea because it never produced anything well congress stopped it so it never produced anything so it's not really in some sense an example of a fail science project and i think it's too early to judge on the l h c we are our laboratory even though we compete in terms of finding the higgs with our tevatron and so on we have sent some of our best people over to the cern to help them understand the issues that we're involved and help turn that machine and i completely agree with you that our field is in deep deep trouble globally if we do not deliver on the large is absolutely to deliver and i hope that if you have a hearing two or three years from now you actually would tell me you know why didn't we do that rather than in some sense letting the europeans do it because his kinds of things that will be discovered will in fact said the tone for the world for what what is really coming in our way that is the magic a lot of the science that we do is absolutely neat but i say it's imaginable i can imagine how i modify a modern molecule to dock in some substance that i can then affect d c so i can imagine how i may modify a surface the atomic surface of a material in order to get a better material there are lots and lots of things in science that are absolutely need wonderful i support them and they are imaginable i think when we actually tackles the questions that lisa has done when we open up this new regime the large hadron collider will be seven times the energy thirty times intensity that we have we really are poking into the unimaginable we may be what we find things that we haven't been able to even imagine we have lots of imagination we made all these theories and so on but we actually and that's the nature of the frontier we may be going to worst despises in india but we may run into america in some testimony and your expertise and your patience with us as you try to educate us on matters rather arcane to most of us on the committee with that the hearing stands adjourned with the gratitude of the members thank you very much