whether we have a system in this country or we're going to give somebody advance notice and allow them to show up at the hearing before we put their rights at issue and that that certainly was a big failure in this case on the part of the government mr ramos horta to hear the country as as an alien for the first time came here to seek asylum not speak english with those and for for most of the time he's been here and up to this point today he's had temporary protect its status as a salvadoran the first issue if i may just want to talk about i think it's very important is the issue if it was a statute means in the statute i'm talking about is in the eye of a and it's the statute that requires an alien in this case to provide the government with an them and he alerted his family and it's his affidavit testimony that it's in the record here that if any bill that would have been sent there to that small village everybody knew everybody and it would have gotten to his family and he didn't have a street address counsel don't we have to go defer to the to the bia a's determination that it was not actually an address where the street number where someone could be reached you know they have a if they have a factual dispute in your client since this is my address where i can be reached and it's an adequate address because it doesn't need of the house number and then the  to make a factual determination well or if they get it from the from the from the i j a they get they can review the i j a and and they who said that it's not a valid address and they explain that it's not a valid address honor i would say back to the immigration judge who first issued the deportation order he had there was no there was no basis in the record for him to determine whether that was a relative tress first on the address it had the village one that he had left it may have gone to the ramos horta your family gets to they did they would have known in the village where that piece of mail would have to go to other words it was too he any kind of address in the united states that's correct your whole entire time between july in november as correct he was working different jobs and going from place to place and he kept in contact with his family during that time that he didn't talk with the government to say i'm moving here to take this job and i'm going to be at this place taking this job for four or five his every five days even if he's on the move he supposed to update where he is  that's right and his is permanent address never changed his address i should say under the statute which requires a given address to give the government address where he can be reached regarding the plan tacked it is the right word right contacted pardon me contacted means for purposes of service so that you can be personally served or sort of served by certified mail as correct at the time to refund write could you be served by certified mail in this village at the time well the mail that would have gone to the village would have been addressed to him i wouldn't have been certified where you'd have gotten a signature and do they have that with that of is there a it i honestly can't answer that question but what i would say is very important here streaming important the government never even made an attempt period and the government couldn't serve him personally there right well that's impractical for the the government to serve him personally ok you know we have an address but he didn't have a certified so but the way that the government contacts people is by personal service or certified mail is the method of you could be certified mail at this particular address even if the address itself was ok with this with all due respect your honor i don't there's no evidence in the record that it wouldn't have gone there and telephone number where you can be contacted you are required to really provide written notice within five days of any change in your address or telephone number to the office of the immigration judge you found  changing within five days you have to do a change of address so he never changes address he did never he never had a change of address for that time period and so that's the admonitions that were given him in the order show cause that he was personally served with he said it's five all of those if you got a change of address you got to let the immigration court know that doesn't apply because he didn't have one and he did provide an address to the rest of his employer might be he was employed by well address and that's the only one he was able to drive but that's not where he could be contacted he could not be personally contacted at that address or served by certified mail or your r i i i think after that point the only evidence in this case is his affidavit on that issue and it says mail would have gotten to his family and he kept in contact with them so he could have been contacted there that's not on the means that the us government used during the employment he contacted his family every week and that's in his affidavit and you you make a good point your honor you know about with somebody comes into this country country it's it's not uncommon at all that they have one address and that's where they came from that's and and and i think that significant issue in this case really is looking at the statute that requires that that argument might have some the deportation hearing was conducted in november just months after he arrived he never had notice of the hearing he also never got a copy of the judge's deportation order because that was it ever sent him so he didn't know what had happened and but he never made inquiry for years and years and years and years that's correct but he never ending he got a piece of paper when he came in and then he never followed up on it he didn't he he were lied on the government's assurances to him written and oral if you look at the order show cause it says we're going to send you notice of your hearing to the address you provide is it your position that even for the reading three years not just the six months not just to light of november whenever it is but that for the entire time that he lived in the united states before two thousand sixteen that he never had an address where he could be contacted in the united states is not a position our position is at the time that the governor was required to give the notice of the hearing and sent him a copy the deportation he had to want to dress in a certain that but he didn't know allegedly that he had been given a deportation order in absentia for so he would still be under that original duty that said he every five days he's supposed to contact them a fuse moved so at some point within since nine hundred ninety three to two thousand and sixteen that obligation would realistically be trigger wouldn't it the obligation i think you're talking about as the one that says he's his poster or he's required to provide a change of address than five days of his receipt of that order show cause which was on july thirty first so within five days of that his and his address never changed and he continuing obligation when he moved so so you're saying that his is that he never ever got an obligation to provide an address where he could be contacted a lawyer and he maintained that that that was his home even though he'd been in the united states for this many years of his life while you're in the what i would say about that is the the  order show cause outlined all of his rights and obligations with respect to his address and he satisfied all of those rather argument is your best argument against  important here to look at that order to show cause and see where the government was supposed to put his address they put did not provide a us address and then you get to the hearing the first hearing for that immigration judge and he has most of this time with that status so he's been he's been legally here years that's correct he's had that t p s status for for a couple of decades  different avenues relief that he may have but he was never for example asylum he was denied the ability to ask for asylum which was his whole intent you have to get it you have to ask for asylum within a year of right but he didn't rush off to the immigration office and try to claim asylum he stayed back and waited for them to find him so it's not that they that every couple years he renewed that but he could have applied for asylum there was nothing that prevented him from the science that would have been his hearing but he could have even on his own when he came in originally started this the games are still active there is still a dangerous place to be the same situation when he came into the country absolutely and that's just how he qualified for t p s how long was he here before he got protected i believe he got it is within a year or so after getting here but i'm i'm not the homie that i'm on her so sure but he got it pretty quickly council why isn't the discussion really having entirely academic because are a binding case law we cannot give you we cannot order you to be reopened because there's no due process violation big under our binding precedent so you can't you due process claim fails we are or i would would say that the case law out of the fizzer case that i've seen in two thousand seventeen and  if they had given that you could excuse that addressed situation when there was an that that there is no liberty interest at stake in a motion to reopen due to the discretionary nature of the relief regardless of whether the person would be review that for abuse of discretion i would argue the board didn't in did not incorrectly interpret the address requirement the board made it quite clear that this petitioner did not meet his notice requirements under the regulation and under the statute that's correct but in this case the board made a determination that this petitioner based on the record and based on the immigration judges determinations did not provide immediately in writing his address to the immigration or guard list of petitioners arguments that he provided an address to the form i two thirteen which is a record of de portability that form has nothing to do with the order of the show cause and the instructions that are attached to the order of the cause now we don't review it to know do we we review whether it was a rational or what's nonsensical we have a whole litany of these words the entire thing wrapped up in above which includes the legal determinations that went into it we don't separately look at the law we looked at the entire process to decide if it was abuse of discretion that's right this court in reviewing the board's decision is  utterly without foundation in the evidence or otherwise is a rational that it is arbitrary rather than the result of any perceptible rational approach then this court mr affirm the board's decision that's the standard in this case not provide specifically explicitly a us address under section a one half however it does provide under section c one which is the consequences of the failure to appear that's not the issue here we're not out of the government's position is not that in every provision of the i n a or in this case that the foreign addresses the issue that's not the issue petitioner didn't even need his initial hurdle that initial photo is to provide immediately in writing an address where he can be contacted and if he has a change in address then he must provide that form that implies that the immigration court understands that this is an intern who has recently come into the us they may not have an address right at the moment that the order to show cause was served but the anticipation is that they are staying in the united states seeking asylum or other forms of relief and will soon have an address in which to provide to the immigration opposing counsel says he never changed well that's seems like an unlikely argument your honor quite if someone is living here for twenty three years there is a mailing address that can be provided to this court and as this as your honor noted is a continuing obligation the order to show cause instructions do not say please provide your permanent address to the safest place that you can receive mail that your family will communicate with you it says without in very black and white terms you must immediately provide this individual who is in the united states and cannot be served in the local community but someone will hear there's a letter out there somewhere floating around that has his name  detention space was low the resources were low and back in one thousand nine hundred three the policy was that even if they didn't provide an address in which a notice of hearing could be sent to them d s warnings were given in english and dress but the issue is certified mail as as your honor pointed out there are regulations that require overturn receipt and as the board has stated there is a presumption of effect of delivery of service with certified mail that's why i provided and it was certainly not provided provided an address of something or to the border patrol agent filling out a form that had nothing to do with the order of the show cause the order the show cause is the legal document that he's provided and he was told to keep it with him and keep a copy with him and to understand the warnings and instructions and what he could have answered addressed provided don't wanna know and he could have after receiving that order to show cause then sent written notice to the immigration court stating this is the only  smile salvador others that's the only one i can receive mail at but that's a different case that's not the case before this court today and so to tee up this interesting argument that we want to have about whether you can provide a foreign address and then whether the government has a duty to contact us that the argument that purports to be the argument that we would have been ordered to tea that he would have had to have given that in answer to the proper form and he didn't even tee up the argument because he didn't give that on the proper form he just told the border agent who put it on the country of origin presidents like and he never updated as well your honor in that change of address form so we are not we don't even have the proper beautiful case in front of us to decide if the statute is truly a big us or allows for a us address i mean a foreign address that's correct and in our brief we state that we are not asking this court to reach the foreign address argument because the crux of this case the dispositive issue in this case is that initial bond in the petition of failed to comply with entirely and essentially he did wash his hands of any active participation in the immigration proceeding for two decades thereafter the immigration authorities want this case remand so they can clarify some of the issues that have been raised in this appeal and th i would just clarify for the court that t p s is a temporary protected status and does not prevent it does not present a legal binding status for this petitioner it can be revoked at any time and it is set to revoke in to be revoked in twenty honor on in the record on page seventy six of the administrative record that's the record of deportable ileum that's the biographical record that the border patrol agent creates stating that this individual entered on a particular day through laredo texas a believe it says at the date and time of the document who he encountered the fact that he's a native of al salvador that he used a portable via an old  provision and that he was provided a change of address form and a list of attorneys to this petitioner and at that point at the top of the documents it does state number streets of the province and country of permanent incident encounter with that's the one and only document upon which an address is provided in this record it's the one place where he did provide his country of origin address that's correct and there is no other evidence in the record indicating that he provided a us address at any stop but that is not sufficient if i follow you correctly in connection with the order to com correct the order to show cause under regulation three point one five which is an old regulation that's that's been updated but back in one thousand nine hundred three under c one it says if the aliens address is not provided on the order to show cards or if that address is incorrect the alien mu provide to the office of the immigration judge where the order to show cause has been filed within five days a service a written notice of an address and telephone number at which the alien can be contacted so the regulation makes clear that it's the order to show cause that is the interpol document for the immigration court and it also provides in that regulation that there's a specific change of address form form your thirty three which is the same address form that's provide as indicated in the record on page eighty eight when he was released from ins custody so he's given ample noticed that this is an important change of address document he's given full notice that the immigration court is waiting for his information that it has nothing that the forms has is blank right to show cause order has a blank for address there's the show cause orders of did not provide us the address and the show cause order to be clear is in both english and spanish in fact the word address is listed in english and spanish and next to the word address is that line that says did not provide the united  address the statute twelve fifty two b again the first to an address that does not the regulations in the statute do not choose between a foreign and a us address but again that issue is not we are not asking this court to reach that issue here today because the more dispositive issue is the fact that petitioners and comply with the order to show cause the form has no address on it correct there is no hour is no address and when the show cause has no address on it foreign domestic whatever the the instruction is that you have to provide an address for act in your own language or told that threat again is not the government's position that on that  forgiveness rudimentary question and move around here on the order to show cause the address box or a line is not filled and based on what the alien provided to the border patrol in turn how was that box filled in and who fills that in and based on what my understanding  transcribed on the order to show cause that would be a different story because it typically taken from the border patrol administrative record document if that were the order to show cause addresses typically drawn from i believe the regulation says the service shall provide that the following information to the executive office of immigration review and the oddest is one of them if an address is provided that the court  i'm not exactly sure of the procedure but if that if that address is there it might be transcribed on there i don't know i don't i don't have a guarantee for your on are or regulation that says it will for certain be transferred for whatever reason it wasn't for whatever reason wasn't but it also says in the regulations omission of any of these items shall not provide the illian with any substantive or procedural rights and the address is listed as one of those items which is why made very clear to the petitioner if it is missing from this order to show cause which might happen either because the border patrol agent did not put it where the petitioner did not provide it there is this backup plan these instructions which give the petition an opportunity in case there was an error in transcribing that address from the border patrol agent to the order so the petitioner is given that opportunity to give a written record to the immigration court to provide a correct address because at the end of the day even if there is an error on the order to show cause the petitioner still has an obligation to provide a written correction of that error or written change of any change of address again there's a there's a continuing obligation here clear is the day that this is an obligation that does not just and there are addresses that are changed all the time and there's case law in this court in which if an address is provided and certified mail is not able to be delivered and petitioner never provided a change of address then the board did not abused its discretion in denying that motion to reopen i believe gomez palacios had similar circumstances in which he provided initial address but the second address that he provided was not an address that certified mail petition actually never provided an address was told in the end in the notice to appear in english and in spanish what his obligations were and many years later asked for the case to be reopened but the court stated that this was the petitioner did not fulfill his initial obligations to provide an address and he cannot therefore come to this court asking to reopen the case when he did not but divide and ition didn't we say though in hernande that even if he didn't have any obligation whatsoever it was discretionary and so he couldn't get us to to order a reopening anyway it says even assuming argue window that he didn't have any duty and he could establish he was eligible he couldn't establish due process because there's no liberty interest that's correct your honor and that's why he doesn't get reopening anyway if he hasn't yes that's that's correct if there is no liberty interest here the regulations state that any omissions on the order to show cause do not provide substantial do due process are you so i would argue and i believe my time is up but i would agree with your honor on says yes your client provided an address to the border patrol agent on the i two thirty this preliminary documents but your client did not provide an address in connection with the order to show cause and the order to show cause is the end took roll document for the immigration court i just wanted to know what you had if anything in response to all i do have a response to that i will say that order show cause just start with it has a bunch of advisors in spanish and english and it says these are all of your obligations nowhere is it listed on that order show cause in those advisors that he's supposed to look at that document to make sure his address is in there doesn't require that the regulations require the government to put his address on there that was given to them given to them at the crossing before the border patrol agent given to them to whom and when well what it says is the statute says he's he's supposed to provide an address to the attorney general i asked was under that authority then and there were show cost says we're go give you notice of your hearing through the address you provided in past tense and he provided an address that's my response thank you thank you we have your argument th