good morning your honor my name is james mayne you're i'm of consul looks sacramento law firm of cook brown and we are the attorneys of record for the appellant in this case presumption in favor of requiring that these be provided during the course of collective bargaining and there are exceptions to that but absent showing the exception the presumption applies in my mis understanding the law i believe you are gone or with all due respect all helping out and what we have to do is we have to examine the cases that have been cited by the in their support the black letter law yes as you have just stated your honor however if you examine these cases that they're relying on there is not a single case that they have cite that the appellate courts have approved without the finding of circumstantial evidence that telephone numbers and names primarily names or only a couple telephone number cases are relevant and necessary are there has been a concession by the employer in the case that these names are relevant contact with members of the bargaining unit as they go through the collective bargaining process in order to figure out what bargaining positions they should adopt ike i agree with you your honor that the need to communicate is what has been  no you aren't the issue here that issue should not be confused with names and telephone numbers as the only way to communicate with the employees the cases that they have been cited concerning names and exclude names and names are always have to be provided and river oaks did provide those names but addresses and telephone numbers have only been provided when your has been a showing of relevance and necessity and in those cases know necessary the union thinks it is to find out where their members are living you know what their phone numbers are right putting to one side the question of whether there are other means to persuade their members to keep contact with the union put at one side with a contract the collective bargaining agreement between the union and the company specifically provides that that information will be kept confidential except when there is hire fire or demotion w that contract override whatever relevancy or necessity the law might many thanks for your art you have anticipated my next point that's exactly the point that we've attempted to make to the board that in this case there is an expectation of privacy written into the contract so let's forget about whether there's an expectation of privacy while the contract provides the information regarding the address and phone numbers will be confidential and will not be given to anybody except i think governed by the employer under certain circumstances that's correct you exception hire fire and change status right when they're first hired that's correct i say hire fire or change a status if that's the contract between the union and the employer what in the collective bargaining agreement that so provides just so i can make sure i understand precisely how that language operates your honor i do not have the contract in front of me i cannot do that but my can you do it m with you before i get the get the contract i don't have the contract with me at the table you know why don't you who will give you enough time to do that on rebuttal so they make sure that you can sort of isolate the language and maybe because i have isolated the language in the may page twenty your honor and i'm going over to page twenty t phone numbers there is a specific reference to confidential it or just a specific reference to addresses and telephone numbers and other and if those are any other confidential matters shall be referred to and then there's also the provision that says the employer will respect the right of privacy of the telephone numbers will be kept confidential and that they can have it people who want to can get the written consent of those employees and this bargaining unit is only eighty members only how many eighty eighty and the other cases talking in terms of thousands of employees spread all over the spread over many locations and we just don't have that there's no evidence of that in this said you used up your time i think the accurate way to state that is we have used up your time e or not a proper release because of the securities and collective bargaining and policy whether this language is a clear mistake about a waiver of statutory rights that's the that's that was the question before the to eat in this contract saying on hire fire status change addresses and phone numbers i just know from numbers will be given up if we interpret  contract as a whole and if you are correct that there is absolutely presumption that the union has a right to these telephone numbers at any time right well this is  if we are interpreting the contract as a whole and we have two paragraphs eleven and eleven g say this information is private and it's not to be improperly released and we have a paragraph be any time because we've got this right under the national labor relations policy and then that to me is the purpose no you are what i'm saying is that this is not a contract interpretation case this is  without any showing of any specialized need for the information that the current track that the that the if the if the parties have chosen to have a waiver at agreed to a waiver of that contract certainly they could of putting much clearer language than this they could have said notwithstanding any rights that the union has pursuant to the national labor relations act this calls documents or questions concerning reference credit check home address telephone numbers location other confidential matters and then it says shall be referred only to the human resources director or his or her designate it doesn't say what human resources director is then supposed to do just as take those questions for that person correct you're right it doesn't it doesn't say that that person may not release down or is that what you understand by waiver yes and the case is to say that the only way that you can stop the union from finding out addresses and telephone numbers used to have a firm of proof before the board that the as i understand the position we shouldn't be looking at is the contract interpretation case even though there's a collective bargaining agreement that's not how the national labor relations board looks at the national labor relations board takes the position that they're entitled unions entitle to address and home phone numbers and once an exception has been created and the exception has to be by voluntary waiver of the union of the right that's one of that's one of the exception of the union's right to such basic information as addresses and telephone numbers that it needs to communicate with them how much is this language all personal record personal records are confidential access to the personnel file is limited to doesn't say the unit that includes union there and then it goes on to say that any calls about this will be given to human resources director which is one of the  persons in the previous paragraph has a right to this information but i would venture that every employer has such policy limiting as ople that one thing that doesn't appear in the us is that the union is intitled to this information that wasn't bargained for by the you correct your honor but the board has as i would submit has the discretion to adopt a bright line rules that promote collective bargaining chip or two rather than  issue that i started on before we got off on the contract issue i believe that consol has misstated the rule concerning disclosure names addresses and telephone numbers as a matter of right they first have all the cases all the appellant cases have have relied upon the providing of substantial evidence in order to required of this closure of names and ask you thank you say names it's telephone numbers and addresses there's not a single case be cases on this point differently from the way do you do but let me check ok when i read them is when the union is in a collective bargaining situation right not all the time and i don't know why when they are engaged in collective hearing what there is it that then any time if they can request information concerning wages hours and working conditions that will assist them in bargaining are going to discharge your obligation as a collective bargaining major that's absolutely clear and that's because it goes to the essence of the bargaining relationship and the courts have held that they do not need to make any type of of special showing however however while there may be dicta in some of the cases there has been there has been no case  cited that extends this proposition to names and i care i go again it's address and telephone number so you speak of that proposition as being the proposition that the union needs to make no special showing as students assess the t v and relevance for those things that are of the essence of the collective  can bargain that right away you know they can bargain to right away to those things that are of the essence peer sense names and telephone addresses and telephone numbers are not of the essence there's been no expectation of privacy that then there is a balancing act yes that time is running we're taking you over but because of the moment i'm not yet convinced of your position i don't want to cut you off before you had a chance to answer the questions admits that the union requested the names addresses and telephone numbers of the unit employees and that the respondent refused to furnish this information to the union although the respondent answered denies that this information is necessary to our going to the union's duties as the evidence presented there was evidence only one discussed in the in the ok all right but what i'm saying to you your honor and i think what is important is is that the point cases i have to have required to have first found that there were substantial evidence supporting the direction of the board to provide the necessity to provide this information and it goes through several those cases such as for henschel and united all of those cases improperly released and then the next sentence says any calls asking for various things including addresses and phone numbers should be referred only to the human resources director like what what this does that mean looking at the agreement ok want you to tell me how that language and struct the human resources director may not true at least addresses and phone numbers when the union asks for them in the course of a collective bargaining situation that particular says that that language in and by itself does not instruct it goes to the that's that's the role the human resource director well you should look at the the parties were negotiating the confidentiality and that the union reserved the right to receive the names and addresses of new hires so they could contact them and if they had wanted something else they could have bargained for that and that i do not agree that in this particular instance when you're dealing with a right of privacy that there is a  of right to that there has to be a balancing test an f balancing test was not provided thank you sir you know if i could help your honor i'm more than happy as they thank you very much thanks both sides for their health well arguments in this case