i'd like to have a roll call mr silvestri mr ball present mr lewis here mr berquist will not be here mr arcuri here mr stiegel here mr atkinson here mrs merrell present will everyone please rise and join us for the pledge of allegiance i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of the reorganization meeting of january 7th two thousand and thirteen there was one change i think or one correction it was in the section 8b mr ball's proposed resolution regarding peter's requesting a change in our assigned senatorial district first paragraph third line from the bottom mr ball i think the second word township should be county in the end of the sentence so on page eleven of the minutes i'm sorry neglected to say that do you agree mr ball that's fine okay is that a motion i move that the minutes be approved with that one correction is there a second reluctantly yes okay is there any further discussion you all in favor of the approval of the minutes and the motion that was made say aye aye opposed say nay passes six zero mr silvestri special reports do we have any no okay the next item is audience comments this is the time for any member of the audience who so desires can get up here and discuss a nonagenda item for at least for no more than five minutes is there anybody there you go come on up name and address and you're on your way hi my name is eric roullard and i live on buffalo ridge road do you need the address or no that's fine okay and i'm here to talk about the redistricting and why it should be important for peters township if you've noticed we're the way it's designed and the way the senate district is drawn other people have talked about it essentially we're the odd man out most of the county voting in this district is allegheny county they get they don't get most of the attention i think they get all the attention how many times have i wanted to do something or escalate something and it's very hard to get anything done and i'm not municipal or anything i'm just an ordinary guy trying to do some political organizing i'm sure democrats have the same problem where they wanna get something done and then they have to sometime appeal to a higher up and they can't get anything done so i think if we were with the rest of washington county we could get a county commissioner to help us we can get another municipality to help us we could team up and get something more effective when we have to team up with allegheny county they figure if we don't get anything maybe they get more that's it's one of those games that needs to be played and we have to figure out where we want to be and who we want to be to team up with to get things done and i believe we would get that done better if we were all included in washington county and i believe that's the district senate district forty six so i think that would be a good move for us okay thank you thank you is there anyone else from the audience who would like to talk about a nonagenda item ma'am good evening this is my first visit so i'm kind of nervous so i'm just gonna read off my paper if you don't mind would you please state your name and where you live certainly my name is angela carrier and i live on east highland drive okay thank you and don't be nervous i'm very nervous my knees are shaking turn that microphone down so you can speak can you hear me now that's good that's good i've lived in peters township since one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine and my comment is also in regards to peters township potentially moving from senate district thirty seven to senate district forty six i believe peters township has an affinity for washington county and not allegheny over the last fourteen years i've watched an amazing amount of development of so many areas in washington county i feel that peters township no longer goes north for all of its shopping for example this christmas not once did i go to south hills village to buy gifts this year i shopped in washington at kohl's tanger outlets toys r us and several other stores in the north strabane and the trinity point area for everything i needed my point is that i feel that there has been a clear dividing line between bethel park and peters township and the rest of what is considered south hills area especially in regards to shopping and personal family needs with so much growth in peters township and canonsburg i think the two are more blended excuse me blended more now than ever before i don't feel any affinity at all with either bethel park or mount lebanon for that matter when the people i network with for business ask me where i live i tell them peters township in washington county thank you thank you any further audience comment seeing none we'll move onto unfinished business the first section thereof is the youth commission there's five potential openings on the youth commission board to count nine currently there are four councils interviewed i believe nine of ten people and there's still one left to interview i didn't know if you want to act on any of them tonight oh i know personally since there were so many candidates i think i would appreciate a little bit more time to think about that and to review some of the documentation that they supplied i know it's in the docket but i personally think i need a little bit more time but i don't know how everybody else feels mr silvestri when the gentlemen who applied but wasn't able to come tonight do we know when he might be available this week i think he could be available before the next meeting the beginning of the next meeting do you think that i know he's out of town i'm not sure if he's out of town all week i would like to first of all i would like to interview the other person and then i would i think most members of council would find it helpful if we had a summary of the resumes that were presented to us so we can go back and refresh our minds this is probably the biggest field that we've had for any group that we appoint and the fact that we've had so many truly qualified people makes the choice very hard there's nobody that wouldn't be good we just need to find what we think are the best of them please if you do some sort of summary keep them in the order that we interviewed them and some of these people go back december 3rd so it's been a while mm i'll move that we table any motions until we interview the final candidate is there a second second all in favor of the motion say aye aye opposed say nay sixzero the next appointments we need to address are the zoning hearing board yes we're trying to there's a couple i mean council had questions about attendance and we spoke with mr federline the chairman and he sent a history of attendance they have not had many meetings in the last couple of years where there was at least three board members so they did have to appoint a hearing officer we did contact ms noble she's currently an alternate and is willing to be a full member mr zephro has asked if someone replaces him he would like to resign cause his work schedule made it difficult through this upcoming year to attend meetings mr ferran and mr dickson would both like to attend we do need to change some of the term dates so that it conforms with the ordinance we never did get it all straightened out we went from three to five members yeah after i read your dissertation i was not sure we had it straightened out yet michael no i think we would i don't think so if we have it the way i propose it as far as terms yeah i read what mr silvestri recommended and i would make an alternate recommendation i think that ms noble who has agreed to come on board as a regular member should be appointed for the position that expires in two thousand and seventeen i would make a motion for that do you wanna do them all separately mr chairman i don't have a preference why not make it the one that expires in two thousand and eighteen is there some reason why well i was going to recommend that we advertise for a new appointee who would start this year and have his five his or her five year term end in two thousand and eighteen uh did you make a motion i'd like to make a motion that we reclassify stacy noble to a regular member with the term to expire two thousand and seventeen i second it we have a second we have a motion and two seconds is there any further discussion to the point of order i think you probably would accept the resignation of mr zephro first so that at least then there's already a vacancy on the board okay so we wanna make that motion i move that we accept mr zephro's resignation as soon as we find an alternate regular member and ask that he serve until that time i'll second it we have a motion in the i'm not too sure that's what mr silvestri was asking i thought you wanted to accept his resignation and i'll defer to mr johnson but i mean right now i guess we we need to determine what the status of mr farron and mr dickson is before anybody can be appointed well let me then start from the beginning i move that we appoint mr dickson to a term as an alternate through the year two thousand and fourteen with the term expiring two thousand and fourteen mr dickson would be coming off of the committee as the regular member why don't i tell you the whole deal yeah do the whole deal well i'm you know i'm real confused now mr dickson i would suggest become an alternate based on his attendance and his term would expire two thousand and fourteen mr farron would stay as a regular member with a term that expired two thousand and fourteen i would suggest that we asked mr federline if we could revise his term to end two thousand and fifteen we have mr stasic as two thousand and sixteen already and that would stay the same and then stacy nobel would become a regular member with a term that ended two thousand and seventeen and we would search for another fulltime regular member to replace mr zephoro when he can once we find a replacement then he would resign are you on board mr silvestri i don't i'm not sure i know whether that works or not so mr as i assess mr zephro wants off correct okay and how many people do we have on there now forget about the alternates just regular people five five so if we take him off we'll still have enough to conduct business right correct all right so why don't we just accept his resignation with regrets well the question was about the reason this all came up and we didn't reappoint last meeting was about the attendance well i mean i don't i understand that but i mean if mr zephro wants to resign then i think we should let him resign that would be the first order of business all right and then we'll have a slot to fill and let's fill it with ms noble and then go from there unless that doesn't sound logical i don't know works for me well i'm gonna make a motion that we already have a motion on the floor and a second we have two motions on the floor though can we ask the right well let's move to withdraw the previous motions and start over i withdraw my motions and defer to the chairman to make a motion okay i'm gonna make a motion that we accept mr zephro's resignation with regrets second okay is there any further discussion okay all in favor say aye aye aye aye all opposed say nay okay that passes six zero okay now i'm gonna make the motion that we appoint ms noble to is to the zoning hearing board and not no longer be an alternate she's an alternate now correct okay and she would fill out i guess mr zephro's term through two thousand and fifteen january two thousand and fifteen okay does that sound right second okay is there any so we have a motion and a second do we have any further discussion we just still not really addressing the concern that mr silvestri had with the proper staggering terms that followed well if you do okay okay i see what you mean okay if you do like now if you appoint ms noble to two thousand and fifteen it still gives you the option of correcting the rest of them yeah but i know it's just not two thousand and fifteen in your staggering language no that's true that's true correct do we have a we have a fourteen well jethro's a fifteen jethro's a fifteen we have to replace him should be two thousand and fifteen okay that works that works yeah okay so we have a motion and a second are there any further discussions all in favor say aye aye all opposed say nay so that passes six zero now if anybody wants to make a motion with respect to the dickson or farron or i guess who else is left there i'd suggest we just leave those the way they are for the time being well until we figure out i guess somebody is up though in january right actually technically right now both mr farron and mr dickson's terms are up so they would need to you have two dates now that are available the 7th the one that would enter in january two thousand and seventeen and then january two thousand and eighteen but do we know whether they wanna stay on or farron does yeah then i would move that we reappoint mr farron to the second we have farron and dickson mmhmm mr farron to the term expiring two thousand and eighteen mr dickson to the term expiring two thousand and seventeen so that gives us fourteen fifteen sixteen seventeen eighteen well wait a minute what about thirteen this is thirteen this is thirteen january thirteen we're on fifteen okay expiring so we have a motion is there a second would you repeat your motion mr ball it's a very yeah well i move that we appoint mr farron to the term expiring in two thousand and eighteen mr dickson to the term expiring in two thousand and seventeen so we have a motion do we have a second second okay is there any further discussion all in favor of the motion then say aye aye and all opposed say nay nay okay so that's five one so is that now filled or but we're still short one aren't we you filled the full members but there's an opportunity for alternate right okay but we don't know who may be interested in that we're advertising okay so we should advertise and then we'll try to fill those but okay we should congratulate ourselves on the most complicated appointment yet i know next is the parks and recreation board we were waiting for the school district to come back with a decision on mrs schwarhaus and the board did table action i spoke with mr valdic his secretary and they seem to be i think somewhat confused as to what their role was and the terms the one thing they were asking was if there is but currently the way it's structured is there's one school board recommendations in one year and two in another and the reason that happened was when council expanded the size of the board they gave the district two additional recommendations so they both came in that year they'd like to see if it's one each year so they could have windup to vote on every year and then they were they weren't sure the interaction with the board so i think there's a lot of confusion going on because there's there was so much change in personnel i'm not sure what they're asking what they would be looking to do so right now the school board has not made a recommendation on that position yeah okay so we have to wait to hear from them before we can approve their appointment correct and then there's some issue about they wanna stagger them now instead of one and two they want one oneonone right okay well i guess the ball's in their court then correct okay and then council tabled action on mrs chevelles appointment and asked us to advertise and we have a couple of candidates okay we wanna interview well when i was the one who made that motion because i wanted to try to see if we could have some variety as far as diversity and representation right now though most of the people on the board have some association with sports associations and i was hoping aside from mrs schwarhaus who now is sort of in limbo also was hoping that we would get some people who would represent some of the other residential users of the recreational facilities end of the park and rec the park and rec's board i just wanted my name's melissa sigman i'm on the parks and rec board i live on fireside drive and i just wanted to make a correction to that statement i don't have any children that are in youth sports i haven't for six years and my kids played in lots of different sports i had varying levels of just standing on the sideline being a parent so i think your representation that ms schwarhaus is the only person who has no affiliation to the youth sports associations is incorrect in fact i think a couple of other members no longer are on boards of the sports associations in which their children participate and joe mays is also not on a youth sports board of any kind why i appreciate you correcting that for me thank you melissa thank you so how many applications for the park and rec board do we have besides ms chevelles two two so why don't we just interview those two people and then go from there this is that their school board interview wow in fact these are school board appointments right no i think this is one is council one is our school board so we have potentially three people that you would consider for our one appointment and you don't know where the school district's going which is another evil i shouldn't have said that what would probably be another topic for a meeting mr lewis yeah if that is one half i can't answer to that i know some of the people did okay so we're tabling i guess any action on the school board right you're gonna have to and on ours until we can appoint till we can interview personnel candidates i just wanted to make it clear that there's a little note in here that ms chevelles is uncertain as to why she was not appointed it wasn't anything at least in my mind that it was personal or something that she did or didn't do i just think that over the last year or so we've had discussions directly and indirectly in respect to various issues that have come before us about the park and certain programs that should be there and certain activities that maybe aren't traditional sporting type situations that we wanted to try to address and i just think that happenstances is that that issue got raised in regards to this appointment and i don't know about the other members but i could speak for myself that i would have no problem whatsoever reappointing her but i think that given those discussions and the fact that this issue was raised that it'd probably be a good idea to at least interview a couple of candidates and we may end up just back at square one anyway but and that would be fine but i don't want her to take it the wrong way it's nothing personal about her something she did or did not do well i think at least in my mind i think it's nice to have a list of people in our back pocket in case somebody does need to step down so we have a list of people that we know we're interested in filling in all those roles right i personally didn't think attempt attack on mrs chevelles at all moreso just seeing what's out there okay all right moving on i guess we're into new business that's the consent agenda the purpose of the consent agenda is to improve the efficiency of our meetings and to avoid having people wait for items that apparently require little or no discussion these will be acted with one motion any item can be taken off this agenda and acted separately if any council member or audience member desires the items on the consent agenda are one exonerate paul lauer and the georgia tax service two thousand and twelve leaned real estate tax all unpaid taxes have been leaned with the washington county tax claim bureau as required by state law two approval of resolution ten thousand two hundred and thirteen approving the destruction of obsolete records in accordance with the pennsylvania records retention act and three approval of resolution ten thousand four hundred and thirteen amending the police pension plan to eliminate the killed in service provision confirming action taken in two thousand and ten as the state now provides for this benefit if anyone does anyone here wish to remove an item if so we'll handle that item at the end of new business if not then i will entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda i'll make a motion to improve the consent agenda second okay my only comment would be as the resolution you announced for number two yeah mr silvestri's that should be on three yeah yeah well it should be a ten thousand three hundred and thirteen well that's not what it says on this piece of paper but that's okay we'll deal with that amendment i will make the motion to make that correction i take it there's a i meant to second second okay is there any further discussion okay all in favor of the consent agenda say aye aye opposed say nay passes six zero mr silvestri next item is park and recreation board update report and we have a suit coming up to it good evening my name is joe mays i live at two hundred and fifty one teepee road and i'm a member of the parks and recreation board i'd like to thank council for the opportunity to present our quarterly report for october november and december what i've found i've been on a lot of different boards with the school district and also with wpl but i've found that this recreation board that has been together for quite a few years almost every one of us have been there for more than one term has worked very well together and we have a lot of confidence in our recreation director michele harmel in fact we sent a letter to the council indicating our support and what a great job she does not only her but becky and the rest of the staff so we're very very supportive of that we also realize what our role is as board members and just providing input and realizing that she's in charge of the program we've been very busy this entire year two thousand and twelve and during the month of october the tennis heart true court renovation project was completed and the bubble was installed once again for our township residents interested in tennis to be able to use that during the winter months we also met with one of the associations and we're very pleased at the wrestling association with a new president has really done an outstanding job of things that michele needed to continue their program the board also discussed and approved a new flag policy a flagpole policy for the parks and recreation department and we had a booster group of racketeers proposed to buy umbrellas and provide shade for spectators on the hillside at the tennis bubble in november we also had another proposal from to plant trees at the tennis center to serve as a wind barrier and there were some adjustments that were suggested by our maintenance supervisor and the project was approved we're pleased that the fitness trail equipment's arrived and they are working on that during the winter months in the spring and then it looks like that's gonna be able to be used during the later in the spring for our residents and one of the issues we did have to deal with that i think came to you also was the use of spikes on field five and again we addressed that issue we've listened to all the groups that were concerned we made a recommendation to council to prohibit the use of those spikes on field five with that artificial turf we also had discussions about having another sports associated board dinner and that has been established as the date of tuesday february 19th in december again they continued to work on the fitness trail and also the football association made a proposal to build an additional storage up at hofbauer field and the parks and recreation board approved that building as presented one of the other things we spent a lot of time on last year which i think is a critical component of the recreational programs is this volunteer coaches and how they can get their criminal history checks and their child abuse clearances michele has done an outstanding job throughout the year of getting that into place and i think it's made it easier for our volunteers and more importantly it has i believe is helping to protect the kids involved in our programs the other thing that happened this past fall was field five the opening of that complex and again if you've been up there it's quite impressive to see the number of kids and families that are there in the evening also our board i think would like to compliment michele and the athletic director at the school district as they continue to improve of the sharing of facilities i think that helps not only the school district's activities but also the community activities being able to share those facilities last year i kind of took you on a bicycle trip and i'd like to try to mention that again one of the things that i do in the fall and also in the spring in the summer is ride arrowhead trail and i think that's the jewel of the township gives us an opportunity if you ever go through that area you see all age groups doing all types of healthy activities but now with the new section of the park being opened up i ask all of you to maybe as a group or even individuals ride a bike take a walk up through there cause in the spring time if you come up the trail you see the softball kids in the spring the summer you see them in the fall and then all of a sudden you make that turn you come up to the field five and there are hundreds of kids all ages with parents and grandparents watching practices and games then you make a right and you go past hofbauer field in the fall you see the football and the cheerleaders in the spring you see the lacrosse then you go past the other field by the let me see the restrooms and then i think field three four we call it and now you see the usage of baseball softball using that in the fall you see again the football players if you make around a turn right above the rec center you look down to the baseball fields and you see those fields being used and then the field next to the rec center also you also see that field being used by softball baseball but every time i go past there on a bicycle or if i'm walking i have a feeling of pride that i have a small part as being a member of the rec board but i also wanna compliment you cause many of you have been here for many many years and with your foresight and mr silvestri's leadership you have provided outstanding facilities and programs for the community members and i just think it's gonna continue to get it's gonna get better but again without your leadership these things wouldn't happen for the residents or our community thanks very much for giving me the opportunity to say that thank you thank you thank you i guess the next item on the under new business is a request by the junior football association to construct a building at hofbauer field this is this as mr may said this was approved by the park and recreation board and now before council to determine if there's any issues with it if council's found it acceptable we would enter into our standard facility improvement agreement can you reiterate what the standard facility agreement involves for well basically association in the township it sets the terms that the facility once constructed is owned by the township provides for requirements for insurances and that the association is authorized to do the work i don't have it with me right now but it's something we worked up with mr johnson we used when we did the original building there as well as other recreation association for other projects but the key is that once the building is constructed it's owned by the township and we would be responsible for it i might've missed it michael what is it proposed cost to this thing anyone saying the cost is just under twenty five thousand that's being proposed we assessed the numbers that we received from the football association there are representatives from the football association here at what's our standard agreement side that they have to take care of it or what no it becomes the township's property i mean they're using it but it's we would be responsible for the building once it's constructed and then it's our it's a council facility and we're gonna have somebody look at those plans and make sure that they're structurally the plans were already reviewed by the building inspectors and are in a position for a permit to be issued if council approves it did our township engineer look at it no he wouldn't look at that why not reviewing those plans and i mean that's a building inspector issue and i don't look at any house plans or anything like that okay what did the original one cost i don't know the and outs i don't know if someone from the football can answer that or actually yeah i'm from football and i have no idea what the original cost was it was built before i looked into that i have two questions about it the design shows an existing deck and is that connecting the two buildings or are you can you walk underneath that is that what the proposal is yes there will be space underneath that okay so the safety requirements for there's already a walk on like the existing building if i move over here the existing building is here the deck is above there's a garage door here so that's already and it's all like a slab underneath so it's already being walked under currently in the minutes of the park and rec committee or board meeting there apparently were some objections what were the objections to the construction of this i wasn't at that parks and rec meeting it was apparently by a parent yes i'm aware of an objection but we voted as an organization fourteen to two to pass that so there were two people that were opposed okay it says in the minutes from the prior thing we just discussed that there was a parent from the football association to express his concern he felt the money could be better to better serve the children in other ways is that a thing yeah yeah yeah so his proposal was to put that money towards turfing the field which twenty five thousand is a long way from so pretty much a million dollars of turf almost okay that was pretty much it where you going to show i got i have a question do the structures that we built that they built that we're ultimately responsible for did they have to be handicapped accessible or something like that cause i mean that it looks like there's just steps going in there and i mean i don't wanna get in a situation where we do this and then somebody complains that they can't get up there cause they're handicapped we did address that and because of the square footage it is not required no we did address that with the building inspector when i met with him okay what are the dimensions of this these buildings you've got an elevation there there's no plans here and i'll get off that cake but there's just not a lot of information here that's my point it's ten foot by twenty five by twenty well twenty four yeah two hundred and forty square feet yes thousand dollars a square foot yes think about it think about it it's a two story building pardon it's two stories so it was proposed for storage one thousand a square foot correct it's for additional storage we are currently we are tapped out of storage we lost some space whenever the lights went in there because there's some gates that have that area blocked off currently and we used to store some stuff on a route eighty eight storage and we gave that up it was just impractical from community members like myself and stuff to get all the way from there to carry pads and equipment down there to store when we can just keep them right there and the president of the football association indicated at our meeting that he is currently storing a good deal of equipment and supplies in his office at home and he says he's not always going to have that available so look i'm not opposed to it and i don't wanna be an obstructionist but i just think this is a ridiculously high price and i don't know what you've done in the way of checking for alternate bids but that's a lot of money for that structure that's the whole point i was trying to make a lot of money have you got any other bids and i'm not suggesting i'm not telling you how to spend your money either but i just think it's your maybe taking an easy way out here and ought to be looking at something else it's actually one hundred a square foot it's not one thousand said one thousand no it's one hundred he's saying one hundred how many square feet two hundred and forty yeah but it's two floors two floors whatever that is all right okay all right that's all right i feel better that's your one mistake in here that puts you it's all about being it's all about feeling good any other questions for us anybody have any questions anybody wanna make a motion well this is being done without the expenditure of township funds it's like not clear okay correct i don't know that it would have been that everybody who was listening no i'm not opposed to it what do you need mike a motion to concur with us i'm glad i did i move that we concur with the project subject to the execution of the standard facility agreement is there a second also can we have a motion and a second is there any further discussion all in favor of the motion say aye aye aye aye opposed say nay passes six zero mr silvestri let's see you're in the hot seat in the next one the next one is a special permit request by saint benedict they have a church for multiple signs for their multiweek fish fry i'm not sure that i had made a couple of phone calls into the person requesting it and i'm not sure if he's around or not but he i don't see him here this evening i don't know if you want to table this until he has an opportunity to be here i think if we were to table it i think we need to discourage the concept of all these multiple signs and suggest that he come back with at least a more reasonable proposition where does he want them to be cause it's did he tell us yeah it's in his letter or in the attachment i guess there's ten locations i remember last year didn't we have a there was one up there near center church and we had to tell them to move we have this same discussion every year well nah this is the first time st bens has came in and asked for them oh there you go excuse me we always have the same discussion this time it's just beforehand yeah well i would agree with mr lewis point i think that there's definitely signage they could use but the idea of putting a lot of signs on it in public areas is kind of not not the point and if we begin to make too big of a gesture to allowing this i'm not sure it wouldn't encourage other people to do the same will he be able to come back to the next yeah the fish fry doesn't start until the 16th i believe i'm sure they're at the entrance signs on nineteen that would be a real bad deal yeah some of these aren't really objectionable at least in my mind right there i mean he certainly could ask for the bridge and the valley brook bridge all right not at times perhaps no i really don't have a problem with what they've done with their resistant church sign i mean it's there if they wanna put a banner in front of it i mean right i mean it's for a good cause why don't we just table it and then maybe they can come in and provide a little bit more maybe they can narrow these locations down to something that's a little bit more palatable to the board the council you wanna motion to table i'll make a motion to table if that's what you're after second we have a motion and a second all in favor say aye aye aye aye opposed say nay okay passes six zero next one is final plan of anthony farms plan of lodge parcel plan for peter's townshipland company on drawing by jr gale and associate revised the date revised on january 3rd two thousand and thirteen yeah i was gonna say which one are you i'm gonna explain this briefly pt land company developers of the anthony farms plan along with the stanley b anthony estate or finalists anthony farms parcel plan it's simply parceling off and splitting parcel three hundred that was created when phase one was recorded it's splitting this parcel three hundred into two pieces this piece here parcel three hundred and eight will be purchased by pt land company from the anthony estate and it will be consumed by phase two lots and public improvements the plan in addition to parceling off parcel three hundred it establishes all the necessary easements and rights of way to facilitate phase two from being constructed it's simply a plan that parcels off the property that pt land company is purchasing from the anthony estate planning commission did review this at the january ten meeting and approved recommended council approve it subject to five conditions all of which have been addressed so this is basically a financial agreement because they're buying it in pieces correct okay so it has to be subdivided so they can buy the next piece correct i move that we approve the request for division of the anthony farms parcel 300a saa that i have a question on that parcel three hundred b that's for anticipated it's for the next phase correct if that didn't develop that lot that would not be landlocked or anything like that right no it would not no it doesn't i think it has frontage on two public streets all right so we have a motion and a second is there any further discussion all in favor of the motion say aye aye all opposed say nay it passes six zero i'd like to ask the chair to consider changing the agenda here to deal with the offpremise sign there's a number of people in the audience that are here to deal with it that i think we'll accommodate them i have no problem doing that i think we should get through this f though which is the final point if we want to no we ought to get to first part i think i have no problem jumping around to do that but i'm sorry i thought we already concluded the next item is the final plan of the anthony farms plan of lots phase two peters township land company on drawings gale and associates revised the one in seventeen two thousand and thirteen this is a re approval of this plan council did approve this plan back in april two thousand and twelve the plan did not get recorded within the ninety days for reasons maybe pt land company can explain it's simply reapproving the plan that was approved back in april it's twenty lots all the lots are halfacre plus all eighteen of the twenty lots use a fifty foot building line council did approve two lots with a forty foot building lots lots two hundred and nineteen and two hundred and twenty i think are the ones with the forty foot yes they're off in the corner i remember them all the other aspects of the plan dedication of open space what will occur in phase two there's two stormwater management facilities that will be dedicated to peter's township all the runoff from phase two gets directed to those two facilities there'll be a traffic impact fee paid for each one of these lots one thousand one hundred per lot at the time of building permit approval planning commission did recommend the plan be approved back in march of two thousand and twelve subject to eighteen conditions some of which had been completed some of which have not been completed i move we reapprove the plan is there a second i'll second it is there any further discussion i'd just like a clarification there was a question on whether or not the developer was going to attempt to solicit from penndot the ability for a left turn in oh yes kim gale's from jr gales and associates yes we did and we were denied okay so that's completely off the table it's off the table it's right in and right out one other question and i'm gonna keep asking this about the open space in different developments the open space has there been a discussion about what that's going to be or is that basically the scrub area with really no useful purpose i guess right now currently the only open space is back in here long phase one mmhmm is any of it usable the open it's walkable walkable it's walkable the open space in this plan provides a buffer between existing neighborhoods and the new neighborhood it's not just scrub it provides a necessary buffer okay is there any other comment or question she had the one question i did about the does this does the plan provide right in right out yes okay then that's what we're approving yes okay so we have a motion and second is there any further discussion seeing none all in favor of the motion say aye aye aye all opposed say nay passes six zero thank you very much okay i think unless my other council members have any different opinion i believe that mr lewis his suggestion that we jumped onto item seven under correspondence to address the attorney haynes is the arlecchino arlecchino off premise sign if we could that might save some time mr haynes how are you sir i'm fine sir and you good mr chairman i've addressed a letter to you back in april the beginning of may a discussion was had with council about a sign which was asked to be placed on property by arlecchino's up until the time that that sign was placed there had been signs for the school house and arlecchino had simply put the sign on themselves up until that time there was a rental situation with it there has been no agreement to any sort of rent the council decided at that point to allow them to put a temporary sign up and that was intended to be for a period of approximately six months the six months have long passed they would have passed in november or december and we have given notice to council as well as notice to the attorney for arlecchino's that we intend to remove the sign at this point immediately following the construction of the sign on may 3rd of two thousand and twelve i did address a letter to them requesting that they enter into negotiations as to the placement of the sign they have had an additional seven or eight months in order to speak or enter into negotiations and nothing has been done this is simply a situation where they apparently feel that they can take the space and use the space to go backwards this property has been owned this property next to it has been owned for a period of at least sixty years by mr harbison and his predecessor mr niedemeyer they have used this and in fact council peter's township has addressed them and asked them to maintain that property on occasion which they have done they have cleared it they have constructed on it and have completely treated it as their own at this point we have simply come to council to advise that we are not going to allow the sign to remain there at this point without some sort of compensation for the sign or a direct order from council telling us that we have to does your client own that property or as you're claiming it's by adverse at this point it appears we're claiming it by adverse possession i remember when it was here before it was unclear as to who like it was like the last record owner is a person by the name of robert roche mr roche owned a large piece of property there which was split off he also owned three or four properties on the other side of the road the other side of 19th and it appears that this piece was a leftover piece after several subdivisions it is a small piece that sits right in the jointure of the road and does not appear that it has ever been deeded out i have done extensive search to the point of i have pulled all the tax books clear back into the 1880s for washington county to see if this piece has ever been actually possessed by anybody other than robert roche and i cannot find anything his name appears on four different surveys of the property but it appears just to have been repeated each time okay by the surveyor and just added to it it's not being assessed is it being assessed i don't think that it's being assessed what i actually thought at some point was that the township may have taken this but we have checked and it's not because of the fact that that is a major intersection and that the township probably at some point used it for the construction either of nineteen or old nineteen as it were but a check with roads for the council shows no that they don't have a claim to it of any sort either so we have maintained this property at least sixty years and we intend to act like we are the owner of the property which mr arcuri and mr johnson of course will tell you is necessary for our adverse claim mr haynes looking at your letter of january 2nd it makes reference to the fact of ownership either by actual deed or by possession but your position now is it's by adverse possession correct i've not been able to find anything that actually deeds it as i said at one point mr roche owned this property he owned clear over to here and then reality after doing the review of the surveys mr harbison actually owns over into here so there's no record owner of that property there is no record owner of this property has not been since at least one thousand nine hundred and twenty and tacking your client's possession and control of the property along with their predecessors it's more than sixty years it's in excess of sixty years there has been nobody use a claim or pay taxes on the property for a period of at least the sixty years mr haynes yes you say that they harbison's use and maintain the property what do they use it for well they have used it on occasion for storage vehicles but they are the ones that have been required to keep it cut okay the council's it seems pretty steep that's why i was asking i couldn't see how it would no it is steep in here in the actual portion of the property that is harbison's it's very steep right here mmhmm but this is harbison's property right i understand that okay they've come across and again this is a much flatter area okay and they have maintained they have kept that cut down for sixty years mr harbison doesn't use that for his own signage does he i don't remember ever seeing anything no hello mr harbison mike harbison our signage is right behind our building on nineteen actually if i may right there you can actually see the shadow over it mmhmm that's it right there furthermore in terms of the question as to arlecchino and raising an objection or putting a sign there is absolutely no way that they have any claim to this under an adverse possession question the question would be who else might have a better claim than us who else might have done something to maintain the property they of course are clear off in this area and there's absolutely no way that their rights come down to there they do not have any type of a chain of title right to the property i understand my recollection from the discussion was that the classroom the sign for the classroom which was the prior restaurant had been there for years but that was under a lease i'm not they were paying a lease to mr harbison which actually acknowledges his possession does that document does that document exist i am assuming it does as a lease my dad does have a signed agreement yes i don't have that with me right now so when the property was transferred that just was omitted from any conversation is that what happened that the new owners of the restaurant didn't realize the i mean the arrangement i don't know i can't possibly tell you what went on between arlecchino and the school house i think we're about yeah okay i was just gonna ask you if you heard from mr cayman but i guess you've heard from somebody else well i am actually here on mr cayman instead he unfortunately had a prior obligation this evening so was not able to attend my name is ryan woods so i'm an attorney with the law firm goldberg cayman and garvin and then to address a lot of the issues that had just been raised by mr harbison's counsel we believe and we're in the position that they have zero rights title interest at all in the property in the area in where our sign is located and furthermore we believe that we would have rights to this property for its continued usage over the past i believe it's almost thirty years or so that this sign has existed there and i do have a couple of documents that i'd like to pass out or if council would prefer that i just utilize pass them out yeah all right it's always better to look at them that was my thought as well if you don't mind passing this down thank you very much it might be good to have one for don and it might be good to have one for me too there you go at this desk we're sitting next to one i think there was there's more this is the first i've heard probably in the five months the first picture that i have included and i can wait till those get down does everyone have a copy yeah this is just a picture of this is a picture exactly right that was just placed up there for depicting exactly what we're looking at here as shown this is camp lane road this is mr arbison's property and his sign's actually located up in this northern is actually outside of this triangle located in this area that's across the street and it's located there the second picture that i've included this goes back in their chain of title of mr harbison and this was a survey that was prepared for the property that was in january 27th in one thousand nine hundred and sixty four if you look at the way this property is this was also just recently confirmed by mr harbison's counsel where it comes to the lower portion that is actually on the other side of route nineteen there which he had just shown on the prior overhead but if you look at this picture in conjunction with the first actual overhead aerial view you can see that where the property comes over the line is actually brushing a brush line runs well to the north that would actually be the east looking at the the north designation here where the sign the signage is located at and if you look here run actually comes through the property that we're located on well outside of that too it's well outside of the survey area of the property that is actually now currently owned by mr harbison the next document i included in here as well is the actual deed which it was in april of one thousand nine hundred and ninety four which was which now gave title to mr harbison included in here and explained is the actual property that's included within that survey itself it does not include any of this land so none of this was actually traded provided to him which would be required by a deed in order to have adverse possession you actually have to convey that property under belief that it is yours that is not included within this deed itself so therefore there was there's no excuse me i doubt let him have his say mr haynes and i would also just like to go onto the last document that we have there twelve this was actually prepared for harbison audit this was dated february 25th one thousand nine hundred and ninety four and then it was revised on may 5th of one thousand nine hundred and ninety four and again this is the exact same survey that was included in the nineteen the one thousand nine hundred and sixty four surveys exactly the same again depicting the same property and once again more importantly excluding the property that he's now claiming he may have by adverse possession again this is his own admission in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four providing that this is not his property and furthermore that the property that's located within that survey itself is what he actually owns we believe in furthermore in regards to the discussion of adverse possession this is not the proper format forum to determine whether or not they may or may not own this by adverse possession this would actually have to be something that would be adjudicated and determined by a court of law he cannot this cannot be adjudicated by council itself to determine whether or not he has this by adverse possession whether he's met all of the key elements for tacking and furthermore the necessary requirements so i don't believe that he actually has standing to raise the issue whether or not we have the sign here or not may i interrupt for a second yeah well no just just to go ahead michael refresh your memory when this came to council last year a lot of these arguments were being made and there was at least they seemed like it was the potential of an agreement or an understanding that would be made and what council did by setting six months time period to allow the sign that there was either for some conclusive some conclusion by some group either themselves or the court to determine who owned the property or for some agreement to occur our position is or our responsibility is when someone wants to put a directional sign on a corner property they have to have permission from the owner as the staff we could not confirm yes or no who owned the property so the whole idea was for council whether council had was to allow some time for it to get worked out or to be determined definitively and in the interim the sign will be kept and that's where we were i remember and i also remember if i'm not mistaken that in the past the permission from that sign was from harbison for the harbison or niedermeyer one of the two yeah one of the two right that's true but i mean i know mr haynes was all jumping up and down and i understand what you're saying and i agree with you you don't need a deed for adverse possession and quite frankly i mean this survey shows what he actually asked but it doesn't show what he took what he may or may not have taken by adverse possession did you file a statement of claim no okay are you going to absolutely okay the bottom line is as i see this and i might be wrong but we don't really have a stake in this that's right but mr silvestri it's what we call the background we don't intend council loaded we don't have the authority to adjudicate the title of this property mr arcuri's also right we're not the the title of this property is not necessarily limited to the survey if it was clear in the survey we wouldn't have this we wouldn't be in there at all with respect to adverse possession claims but this the sign from it was awarded temporarily because we didn't well i made the motion and i did it was to maintain the status quo until we could get more information i mean it doesn't look like we were gonna get any more information and i think properly so because it was as a dispute that we assumed was gonna be resolved between the property owners which apparently hasn't occurred at this point i mean i think you guys just do what you wanna do i mean it seems to me that if you think that you own the property and you're gonna take the sign down that's gonna force this into court and you guys can if you can't come to an amicable resolution of it then some judge will come with an amicable decision i mean i since you've taken up time i just wanted another question as far as the discussion has there been a discussion of paying a lease is there a problem with the number is there a problem with the concept i had not been involved in any any of those prior discussions it would have been jonathan cayman from my office that would have had those discussions i'm not sure where that is maybe he can shed it seems like something that should be able to be amiably collated again on may the 3rd i addressed to them a letter saying let's resolve this matter we feel that we own it your previous person paid three hundred per month in order to be here time has passed it should be three hundred and fifty which of course that's called negotiation three hundred and fifty per month per month too yeah signed there okay i know it's called negotiation but that that seems like a lot for a little sign again i agree but the prior sign which was more extensive okay well i understand that and that was taken down that was taken down that was three hundred and we were up the assumption to be honest that if something was worked out maybe a more permanent sign was going to go up oh okay okay understanding that they probably also did not want to invest a whole bunch of money in a sign when there was a possibility that they were going to lose or we were going to cut it down but at this point i have received absolutely no response to negotiations not so much as a phone call at all from mr cayman well it seems to me that the economics of the issue ought to be it would have to be resolved in yeah i mean that's you're gonna spend a lot more money which you're already doing on attorneys well i dunno well that's a good thing it's always a good thing for the attorneys but i mean there's gotta be some give and take here and i mean there's another street that accesses that restaurant right up the block i mean they can maybe get a sign off of that property owner so you gotta worry three hundred and fifty a month as opposed to zero a month and i well right now we're getting zero a month so well and i understand that i mean the equity's just i really think i mean council tried to facilitate a resolution some time ago by saying fine put the sign up for six months that hasn't worked apparently i think at this point we're pretty much out of it i mean it's between you between the two parties and to me do what you need to do and hopefully it gets resolved i absolutely agree i really sent the letter as a courtesy okay since you had been nice enough to mediate at least a little bit the last time but the discussion sir was that we recognize in this instance and in many other instances around the township the need of a business to advertise their business and we recognize that that particular business is not exactly right on nineteen so having some directional sign would be advantageous and try to facilitate it and that's really about all that we can do i mean i don't see anything else that council can do i mean at this point i think we need to hand it back to you and say please resolve it between yourselves or some court will resolve it absolutely as i said and i sent the letter because it was actually a thank you to the council for having tried before and i thought it was a courtesy that i should advise that this is where it was proceeding i think you guys thank you you guys can work it out i'm sure thank you all right we're gonna go back to under new business item g award bids for liability and casualty insurance coverage okay we went out and solicited proposals for insurance bids and marie murphy a risk consultants risk resources was our consultant to handle this project and she is here i would point out that marie has said our current carrier is not renewing our coverage so we are in a position that we must have a new carrier at the beginning of the month marie you wanna go through the proposal yes hi my name's marie murphy i work for risk management resources and usually insurance is one of the more difficult things we do i think but maybe tonight that's not so so we'll try to make this short and sweet is that a comment on the meeting pardon me is that a comment on the meeting yes usually i'm like in the beginning of the meeting but anyway we'll try to make it simple tonight what we did i was hired and retained by peters township to manage the insurance renewal proposal for peters township we do this on a routine basis usually every three years to see what the market will bear what's happening in the insurance market and to get competitive proposals this year was different because your current carrier declined to renew your insurance coverage that created a problem because you've belonged to the same carrier i think since two thousand and seven they provided us with very good coverage at a very good price as you can see from these renewal premiums we're gonna go over here shortly and so it did present a bit of a problem at renewal so if we can go first cause i know that we wanna discuss the dollar thing first to show you what we found when we went out into the market and i think that this proposal that you see on the insurance renewal premium proposals as proposed january two thousand and thirteen gallagher was your expiring carrier that's the one that is no longer gonna be providing a quote we put an ad in the paper anybody that was interested responded i did a set of specifications based on last year's policy because i had been working with those that policy structure since two thousand and seven and it was a good policy structure and we got competitive proposals against that what we found when we did this was first of all nobody would provide us what we had at the price we had it period that was just not gonna happen as you can see from the proposals we did get they're sort of within the realm of each other okay as compared to our expiring premium over here at one hundred and thirty eight thousand so that was the first thing we learned immediately was what we had was gone and we weren't gonna find that again so anyway we went through and we requested the premiums for everything and if we also wanted to look at deductibles too because in a lot of these proposals what you retain yourself went up in a lot of instances one of the major covered differences that the old program had that we don't have this year is your law enforcement liability was covered under your general liability insurance therefore you didn't have any deductible now you're going gonna have a deductible okay so i studied this every way i could i studied it from increased deductibles premiums deductible options and then of course the coverages because we hadn't had those core coverages and sort of start there so if you would just go briefly to the risk management resources actually marketing report these are all the agents that we had approached or that actually approached us via a request through the newspaper and these are all the responses we got now you can see by looking at this we did get a nice spread of people that were interested and they were all approaching quite a variety of insurance companies but we did get a lot of declinations so once we got that done we did come up with several proposals that were viable they all have different premiums so at that point what my concern was to make sure that we had the best price matched excuse me with the best coverage if you go to the premium page again you'll see that the lowest proposal was from the campbell agency with great american insurance company and cna there's another part to that that i failed to put on there and their premium came in at one hundred and eighty five thousand eight hundred and sixty four okay which is a substantial increase over your expiring but it was the lowest of all the proposals okay yeah why is that dollar amount different than you took you said one hundred and eighty one hundred and eighty five that is one hundred and eighty five but the one where oh yeah that's another revision did you give them the new revision revision oh okay i'm sorry all right i didn't know you had the newest revision i was gonna hand that out in a minute okay so you have the one hundred and seventy seven that's correct is that what you have up there yeah okay yes okay so that's the one hundred and eighty five okay so you have one hundred and eighty seven in your hand no one hundred and seventy seven one hundred and seventy seven one hundred and seventy seven i'm sorry yes that's the most latest revision that i got practically on my way here what we've been trying to do is ever since these proposals came in once we had the bids and we knew who the low proposals were and who we could work with we've been trying to work our way through this to make sure we had all the coverages we needed that was really the key to this this time i can't forego the coverage for the price let's just we can't do that so as i said we had a lot of declinations we did get a lot of people interested there were several issues now if you go back to the original insurance the major coverage comparisons i'm sorry that's a separate chart what i did was i honed in on the major coverage points okay once i had the premiums established the next thing to do is okay to make sure that okay this is a cheap price but does it have what we need so you'll see from this sheet they don't have that sheet they don't have this sheet oh okay basically what we did was i went through and i actually did a comparison of all the coverages and i came up with major coverage points after i did that i ended up with a few concerns and that's what i wanna just discuss with you momentarily as far as the premium goes the great american program does give you what you need at a reasonable price there are some things that we don't have anymore and one of those things we don't have anymore is coverage part of the coverage for the engineer okay in the old program it covered mark for i know you hate to even say it outloud it covered mark for bodily injury and property damage claims okay as well as public officials claims which basically is a wrongful act the same thing that covers everybody here on the board okay that policy you'll still cover mark okay so we do have partial coverage for him right now what that means is and i'm sure mr johnson can back me up on this coverage triggers what determines what policy responds to what claim okay so if someone sues peters township and mark for a wrongful act okay that will be covered by the public officials policy because that's what public officials covers but if the result of the wrongful act was bodily injury or property damage that's picked up under a different policy on the general liability side and that's where we lost the coverage because the prior carrier was so broad with their coverage form nobody included it just was like they threw it in i was sorta surprised when they did so when we got to this renewal i was i was surprised that everybody told me it was covered but they didn't understand the difference between the errors and omissions professional exposure he gives us versus a regular bipd which might be too much detail but the bottom line is we need to fill that gap mike and i have talked about the most what's the exposure that we worry about most with mark from a bodily injury and property damage standpoint we sort of came to the conclusion it would probably be if there was a storm drain that was designed improperly and if you wanna add something to this and it caused somebody's home to be completely flooded that would be a property damage claim okay assuming he designed it right yes and that was part of what you do correct the well yeah we don't design a heck of a lot of new storm storage systems it can occur and you've noticed that we're doing retrofits of old stuff so then and once again because it's vague okay because he could maybe he wouldn't we have to nail that down because we can't have him exposed or if we do have the exposure we need to know it and absorb it okay so what happened was like i said if he sued for wrongful acts specifically okay and it doesn't mention bodily injury or property damage we have coverage but if we get that strange claim where they do ask for bodily injury or property damage that's where we have this little gap so i went in search of coverage for that gap practically like i said on my way here i finally got a number which kind of floored me to be honest with you i didn't think it was gonna be that high it came in at ten thousand four hundred and seventy five okay and it has a twenty five thousand deductible which if you look at that you have to hit thirty five thousand period before it even pays for itself so this part of the coverage we can move ahead with this insurance program and i'm gonna continue to work with mike on this open issue because i was thinking on my way here actually that do you belong to an association of any kind okay they may be able to provide him with an insurance quote that would be more reasonable this one came out of lloyd's of london okay and lloyd's isn't cheap but it was the only quote that i was able to get too so but i think that it also had to do with people telling me it was covering it wasn't until i read the coverage forms i realized that gap was there okay so that was sort of why that got delayed a little bit but it can be solved i think we can solve it like i said we do have some coverage for mark it's just the bipd portion that i'm concerned about and i think we should pursue this and see if we can get a better premium and a quote because the other side of the coin is is if council if you give it some serious thought and we get mark's input what would be the risk compared to the thirty five thousand a year you're gonna spend on insurance is it really worth it how many of these projects does he do a year how often does he do it how much are we really exposing ourselves to this bipd risk so i think that needs to be discussed further because i think that maybe it's not as big of a risk or maybe it's a bigger risk than i realize i don't know that it sounds like a lot of what mark and i discussed what he does which is why i didn't really think that it was gonna cost that much money not that you don't do important things but he's not doing a lot of design and that's usually what costs all the money so that kind of threw everything for a loop so i will say that we can move ahead with the rest of this but i think we need to continue to pursue that okay the second point i just wanted to bring up was the auto exposure one of the reasons why everybody everybody declined your quote was because of the auto problem that was part of the problem you have a frequency issue and we did get a couple of standalone quotes but we were able to negotiate apples to apples quotes and the great american program now contains everything we need okay on the auto portion too and that's something mike's working on right now he's signing people up for driver training courses unfortunately here in peters township and i can say cause i hate driving out here at night especially in the rain you've had like seventeen years strikes since two thousand and seven and that's just what can you do look it's very rural out here it's dark you know so it's not really something you can control exactly the other point i wanted to bring up was deductibles i think one of the reasons why our losses look so bad here at peters is because we submit things in the five hundred range in the one thousand range okay right now our auto deductibles are five hundred comp five hundred collision so every time you hit a deer you pay the five hundred and then the insurance company pays the rest well i think we've totaled one or two vehicles already so when you look at that the insurance companies are eventually gonna catch up with that and say whoa so i'm making the recommendation we definitely get those deductibles up so that at least as we move forward this frequency thing isn't showing up all the time on your loss runs okay and i think we should do the same thing on property we can carry one thousand deductible right now i think we should bump that up to five thousand we haven't had very many property claims the ones we've had have been lightning strikes at the radio tower and i believe we've had a couple snow and ice things okay so one big one was the sprinkler oh the sprinkler system that's right i forgot about that one so that part of it i think that the peters township has the ability to absorb that five thousand per claim and i think that based on your loss history that's not where your problems have really been it's been on the auto side so i think you should give that consideration cause there's other savings to be had by taking the higher deductible and since you're looking at this transition year where you're going to an almost what forty six thousand increase it's probably a good time to take that deductible savings the dam exposure was another issue that's always been a stick in the program we've always been lucky enough to get it covered this year what happened though was there's only one program that's offering us the catastrophic coverage on the dam and what i mean by that is you have the first one million three million on your primary insurance then there's something called an umbrella that goes over that that provides another five million in previous years you had the entire eight million for the dam exposure you had it on the primary and you had it on the umbrella no one but travelers is offering that at this point and the travelers program is quite a bit more expensive so when you look at the risk we've discussed this at length also you do maintain the dam very very well there's an ability to lower the water if we know there's gonna be an issue with flooding we can open the valves and get that water pressure down we had hurricane ivan and it handled hurricane ivan so that was what a was that one hundred or five hundred year i forget five hundred five hundred year flood so i'm not really totally overly concerned about this excess exposure on the dam i think that the one million three million is probably sufficient i just don't see the dam creating much of a problem that we won't know about before it becomes a catastrophic failure because of the way that it's maintained okay and because of what happened in ivan i think if it was gonna have a failure that's probably when it was gonna happen so so based on all that information i'm making a recommendation that you increase the deductibles to five thousand take one thousand deductible on your auto take all the reductions that they're offering you let me continue to pursue this gap in the eno and i would recommend the campbell agency with great american and cna in the body of your recommendation you say something about the auto being with a different carrier yes it is with great american and it's with cna is the auto it's a different carrier and erie also offered a standalone quote okay they were the same standalone quote so we went with what campbell originally gave us the terrorism coverage we've not taken that in the past no and i have an explanation for terrorism the one thing i would like to say about it is in my business the act goes on forever okay so to make it a short explanation the thing that you need to know is before you can collect any money because we had discussed this like what if somebody came into the township and even if it was a domestic terrorist act and did whatever they did it has to be declared an act of terrorism by the secretary of state the secretary of the treasury and the attorney general before it's considered an act of terrorism so i don't unless it involved the city of pittsburgh and peter's township i don't ever see that happening it would have to be some horribly catastrophic thing before i think those bodies would consider it a terrorist act under the act so the only clients i have that normally purchase that are water and sewer authorities because they're high risk targets and they only purchase it on the property normally so most of my municipal clients do not purchase it so we've not had it in the past right we've declined it in the past does anybody have any other questions this situation that you're talking about using the umbrella coverage mmhmm why is it that the issue that we have with mark isn't something that falls under that umbrella well mark is covered under the umbrella it's a different coverage in other words the public officials coverage is the primary part of the coverage that he's covered under and it's also picked up under the umbrella so it's just a different coverage he is picked up and he's also picked up for bodily injury and as is anybody that works for the township has bodily injury and property damage he just doesn't have it as it relates to his engineering duties he has it for everything else can you think of an occasion that you have had this issue a seal to a drawing or a design that you have done it's typically in conjunction with permits if i apply the vp for a certain crossing permit or a stream bank yeah i think sometimes i have to stand for permit they're on ms4 i had to stand the tmd on plannings it's very rare that it would be for a project that we designed in house now that doesn't mean that i can still design it and oversee it but to me that would be an avenue that would preclude the ability to pursue a claim against him as a design professional well it's a what it's called is an error or omission oh ma'am i know well though what you're talking about okay so that's my business yeah okay so what i'm saying is the eno portion of the claim under the general liabilities is what i'm worried about he does have the wrongful act coverage up here and he has it on the primary and the umbrella it's the missing piece it's not worth ten thousand bucks well that's what i'm saying we need to go further with that because i don't know that there's really much risk there and then when you add the premium into the deductible you're looking at thirty five thousand before the insurance responds and really what is our risk here he's not worth that but i think it's something that i said that tongue in cheek i mean i think it's something we should pursue a little further just to see like i said maybe the association has something cause you know how association programs have special rates for their members and we might be able to do something that way i agree with you i think that premium's atrocious and i don't i don't see the risk that he presents that it deserves that kind of premium that was nowhere near what i thought it was gonna cost because normally it's the design portion that is the risk and he does very little if any design and there's always someone else involved too right there's always gonna be a subcontractor and a contractor and a lot of other parties that will all get sued with us so we can all be in there together and it'll work itself out eventually but we wouldn't be the only person standing there you're trying to make that sound like a pleasant ordeal well i think the more people involved the better let's put it that way it gives more money or more money available to spread around but can i ask you a question from the audience mmhmm i'm scott bramrose oh hi scott how are you nice to meet you nice to meet you too sorry i just wanted to ask when you were reading my form and the liability about the professional coverage for engineers and surveyors mmhmm does it not cover his i think it covered his well i think let me see on my coverage comparisons because i think it said it was covered but it's your premium that made it costly oh yeah i know my premium is high yeah but let me see if we have i just wanted to say that that coverage was available under oh yeah let me see i'm sorry yeah that's the point you're trying to make yes his program with britt did include that exposure it wasn't that it wasn't available that it was the program costs that made it cost prohibited well he's a good guy but he's just too expensive yeah so and this was who again this was sloan agency through the britt insurance group their premium was at one hundred and ninety one thousand seven hundred and forty two michael does your position and recommendation stand as you put it out in your to go with so campbell agency campbell yes one last clarification though mmhmm mr lewis i don't mean to interrupt all right so across the columns the one that has is not included is beside the skate park is that an omission or is that i mean is that what does that mean i'm sorry oh it's included i'm sorry you mean there should be a word included yes yes it is included i'm sorry that was that should be included all right cause that's cause that's a big deal too i mean that's a potential it is it is a big deal believe me the skate park so that is included that's in everybody and it's sorry to interrupt you you have dams skate parks you have all sorts of things so it makes it a difficult risk is there any other questions i have a question mmhmm the issue came up last year when we were involved in some litigation involving an individual who had sued the township federal court under an one thousand nine hundred and eighty three action and council was vehemently opposed to paying a nickel i know what you're talking about towards that claim i know and because of the coverage that we had we really didn't have i guess it's a hammer clause or whatever my i practice insurance so i keep the so if i say don't settle on a no practice case then the insurance carrier can't do that right and when i inquired about that from mr silvestri he indicated to me that our policy does not provide for us to say we're not paying a nickel and you have to defend it and if we wanted that that it would be more expensive i'm not i don't know that it's available okay any professional person a doctor a lawyer because it is a professional person the insurance company extends the obligate or the courtesy i would say of allowing you to refuse to settle and that would be obvious because if you're a doctor your reputation could get ruined and if you really feel it's an opinion thing and it wasn't a medical fact then you can go ahead and refuse it the only thing i've ever seen in an insurance policy that gave you any kind of control over that was a waiver of governmental immunity clause where if you had immunity and you wanted to waive it okay because of some reason i have a water authority for example that had a bad pipe and they knew it and every time it would flood it flooded the same house but the insurance policy would not allow them to pay it they would go to their governmental immunity clause and say we're immune from this liability and we're not paying it well i found a policy or we found a policy that did allow that waiver i've seen it go that way i've never seen it go the other way because there's a right and duty to defend but when you look at the policy conditions all through the policy conditions it talks about your obligations as an insured versus an insurer and you're obligated to do what they say the only time i know that that's different like i said is in a professional situation i've never seen a policy that and mr lewis i don't know if you have either but i've never seen a policy that would allow you to pay or to say don't pay because believe me there are a lot of people feel this way because the claims sometimes are ridiculous you have two i can think of which i won't speak of right now that are absolutely ridiculous and all your costs have been in defending the thing you haven't paid a penny but you've been there's a big reserves sitting there for defensive of an idiotic claim but there's nothing you can do and what'll happen is it'll come to a point for the insurance company where they're gonna say look it's cheaper for us to pay this than to keep fighting this and that's their privilege to do that so but i appreciate your opinion okay and don't get the impression i know anything at all about insurance oh but i do know about professional liability and engineers so okay good well maybe you can help us with mark i would move that we award the campbell insurance company i don't know whether it's exactly if it's one hundred and seventy seven one hundred and fifty nine or if someone else would be less than that maybe if we continue and go through we can negotiate the terms and conditions well yeah this'll be the number that we'll be using and then that's one hundred and seventy seven yes the one hundred and seventy the one that's not up there the one hundred and seventy seven okay so we have a motion and a second is there any further discussion hearing none all in favor of the motion say aye aye opposed say nay that's a six zero mr silvestri next item on the thank you thank you for your time thank you the next item is petition received for barrhill road traffic calming study yes there was a petition with sufficient names to meet the minimum criteria to have us investigate to determine if it would qualify for a study we would look at it from the standpoint of the amount of the speeds and the amount of traffic and then if it does qualify then it would go to the traffic calming committee to review in addition we do have two outstanding ones one that we will be doing additional traffic counts in the spring which is senate church cause that wasn't able to after the stop light was in and then the last one was which has been here for awhile has been maple lane maple lane and when we did the original studies one portion of maple lane qualified from a speed standpoint past going past george and the other part before george did not when we went out there and took additional accounts to see if it still did it actually flip flopped the section before george now is over the speed and the section after george is under the speed and i guess what i'd like to do at least is get a proposal from tpd to see what that would cost to do a study there and then come back to council that's what we've done in the past yeah i see no reason to alter that unless somebody has one is that okay have a vote i think you're okay do we need a motion well just to authorize us to do the study all right so the counts so you have a motion mr ball seconded it any further discussion all in favor of the motion say aye aye aye any opposed say nay passes six zero our next item is resolution establishing that drop a trust for drop pensions yes the police pension plan we really submitted a trust agreement to bank and it basically included everything that's in this agreement in this resolution they took the position that for what was involved they didn't want to get into enter into such an agreement then we went back to the pnc to see if pnc was willing to do such and at this point we still don't have a response they were looking at it but we're we need to get these things established so the other option was for us to adopt the resolution establishing the trust and then we just opened up the standard trust agreement trust accounts with the bank under the resolution here as opposed to having an agreement with the bank for a trust i move that we adopt resolution ten thousand five hundred and thirteen second so we have a motion and a second any further discussion all in favor of the motion say aye aye aye opposed say nay six zero mr silvestri payroll bills i've reviewed the payroll and bills that large file of them there's a lot yeah there's a bunch of them this time find them in order and move that we pay them second okay a motion to second any further discussion hearing none all in favor of the motion say aye aye and opposed say nay six zero mr silvestri could i ask a clarifying question sure well mr ball will you be doing that all the time or were you just subbing for mr berkowitz no mr berkowitz was absent thank you i'm sure if you wanted to do it mr berkowitz would let you there's a filling yeah it's just part of the duties of the vice chair that's why i wondered i came off the bench out of retirement next section since we did correspondence would be reports given the late hour is there anything in there mr silvestri that you feel strongly that we need to discuss no okay is there anybody else on council that would like to discuss anything that appears under the report section no there wasn't anything anybody okie doke let's move to item number nine which is miscellaneous it's road tour date yeah road tour date that's coming up we're recommending march 2nd i think was it the 2nd that's yeah march 2nd that's what i heard i can't do the 9th i have a cub scouts field the trip on the 9th sir what i always think you're really bring the cub scouts on a field trip it'll be snowing last year we did it on the 3rd all our neighboring communities did their road program before us and i hate to be i hope it snows and we can't see a thing we did better last year well it's also weather permitting i mean if it's snowing we would cancel if the roads are covered we would cancel i mean well it sounds like a that's a good day i guess it's fine i'll shoot for the 2nd and then let's shoot for the 2nd if it doesn't work out we'll just reschedule okie doke the other part of it is the the valley view drive cul de sac and i was gonna have mark mark there are some drawings in your docket one of the things we've been talking about is we have a number of streets that are long dead ends mmhmm without any adequate turn arounds valley view long view hammonds elm elm what's the one off the thompsonfield we went up there when we were yeah algrove is that algrove yeah and we discussed this in house and we thought that the best approach would be to try to do them incrementally one at a time and since valley view is going to be paid this year we're recommending that we look at putting in a turnaround at 65th not that the current standard of eighty feet diameter but sixty feet diameter which will be adequate enough for a garbage truck to turn public works vehicles and any emergency vehicles this would necessitate getting additional property outside of the right of way to do this and we would have to contact the property owners and it could very well get if we couldn't work it out where it may get to the point of eminent domain where we'd like to get permission to start the process so we can be in a position to include that in the paving project this be for elm that you're doing that it'd be easier for the turn well i got one property owner seem amenable but i'm not sure about the other one yet we haven't had contact with weren't there three of them then nah actually two it's actually two we can lay it out so that we only affect two property owners so okay now have actually had what just seeing the property owners and task and probably mention the idea but we'd like to get council's authorization on it i think you should go no i think you still need to do that mark did i get did i get out of this information that you can do the hammer head without impinging on anybody we could that would be plan b yeah yeah if the property owners well that's a fallback though it's a fallback it's less effective we could do it but the only problem it doesn't accommodate garbage trucks and that's really the big issue of valley view right now is the garbage trucks either have to back down and pull out or pull in and back up the street it's just not safe so we'd like to and the sixty foot is not our standard cul de sac but it's the same diameter we just did it on this part of the anthony farms deal and that's working well for the garbage companies so we'd like to propose that it's the minimum amount that we can get a garbage truck to that's gonna come down in numbers yeah so you were saying i'm surprised a garbage truck can't handle the hammer head though it's not big enough huh well it's got a forty foot runway so if we go to plan b and try not affect those property owners we're still confined to that forty feet it's not a fifty foot right away so i just don't think they're gonna be able to make that turn could you do you know how many homes are on that how many other people are affected by living on that road and having to potentially be see the garbage truck going up and down backwards or well if you say thirteen one thousand three hundred feet right so there's probably about twenty yeah twenty five twenty six lots of so we couldn't ask them to bring their garbage up to the main intersection so no you should see how steep it is yeah i mean i know i'm being facetious i'm being facetious yeah yeah see that just sounds it's about twenty four if i understand mmhmm what is it too small for and one at the end so yeah actually i think it's about twenty eight yeah twenty five twenty all right anything else under miscellaneous that i know we're in some police cars yeah one other item that i wanted to bring up one of the things that we've failed to include in our budget process and but we think we need to do it is the postretirement benefit actuarial study one of the things we're required to include in our financial reports as well as just for purposes of budgeting is the the actuarial value of our post retirement benefits we've actually been budgeting money annually towards this which a lot of municipalities haven't but we do need to get an appraisal or an actuarial study done about every two years is it two years or three years we do them it's three years three years and we're recommending that we we be authorized to enter into an agreement with mockenhoff associates who did the last two they were the best price the last time we looked at this to have this done it's about five thousand i think isn't it just under it just under it right we need a motion yes we are authorized to do the evaluation is there a second i'll second it okay we have a motion and a second any further discussion hearing none all in favor of the motion say aye aye opposed say nay passes six zero the last item i would raise is the seeing if there's a possibility of getting a meeting with panndot next week either on the 4th 5th or 7th the 4th or 7th is best for me me too at one thousand six hundred o'clock in the afternoon yeah the 4th that's not real good for me or not good for me either are either of the other two better or is the 7th the time the 7th thursday thursday that might be better for me but that i mean you know as long as mr atkinson's here i'm happy cause i know it's more of a meeting to brief you on what's happening with the project the likelihood of it occurring as well as to update you on this whole situation with the various requests okay that'll be well schedule it and if i can come i'll be there you gotta be careful frank there may be decimal points involved and i would fail nah you'd do okay mr stiegel never did learn to do decimals i can tell you never did anyway i'll be there michael whenever you tell me when well then we're looking at the 4th is that what we're that's fine that's okay by me anybody else mr ball how about you or 4th is okay 5th is not good 5th is not good either so march 4th mr stiegel would you be available or are you not sure it's pretty hard during the day to do anything yeah you can do it barry come on come on you tell me when it is and i'll see what i can do anything else that we need to talk about under miscellaneous just to point out there we did get the lsa grant what was that two hundred and fifty yeah what did we ask for we asked for five hundred a little over five hundred but we budgeted for two hundred and fifty we didn't tell them that but i think what happened was we had a project in montour trail had a project in and they decided okay five hundred we'll give half to you half to you because montour trail got them for like six hundred and something okay does anybody have anything for the next agenda i had oh please two things you had mentioned in one of the prior meetings about the new performance review system and i didn't know if you'd be prepared to talk about that then you mean at the next meeting mmhmm yeah sure and then i expected to have an executive session there was a follow up to a request by chief yeah i wasn't sure when we were gonna do that but yeah we need to do that yeah mr stiegel yeah so the draft fire study is that that's available can we get a copy of that yeah we were hoping to get it more refined but my understanding is i have no problem giving it to council it was supposed to be an internal review but we can make you copies of it please do i asked a couple of weeks ago about that yeah i know i know they have it a week from now if it isn't already mr sifron asked if i we'll get that electronically then i may have i don't know if i can or not i'll have to see cause the way it was sent i'm not sure i can do that electronically i may have to how long have they had it mike if we can how long have they had it mike i'm not sure we got it about a week ago a week and a half ago we've been bombarding the township with our flyers on the workshop that begins tomorrow on the comprehensive plan tomorrow evening seventy nine right here in the council chambers is session number one we hope to see you there i think we put some things on your desk we've been email blasting and the next one's all day at the library you can stop in there if you can and then the last one's right in here on thursday january thirty one when you say all day tell people that it's like two hours sessions january 30s in the library public library multipurpose room it's a workshop all day beginning nine hundred am there's a nine hundred am to one thousand one hundred am a one thousand two hundred to one thousand four hundred a one thousand five hundred to one thousand seven hundred and a one thousand nine hundred to two thousand one hundred session hope to see and those are all the sessions attendance at all is not required they can pick one pick one of those times correct okay that's where they do the chip game where they give you some instructions and some background and then they would they have two different options they can see how they want to see the township develop and then they can put down chips as to where they want to see things happen and that'll be then looked at by the consultant to come up with scenarios and will be discussed at the following meeting so tomorrow night as somewhat of an overview of what has already been completed that plus we're gonna talk about what other communities are facing and how they've resolved some issues we talk about traffic and we'll talk about the status quo gross scenario findings and then talk about what's gonna happen the following two days so what's thursday specifically just findings wrap up yeah results yeah the january thirty sessions we got an email today from and it said that yeah thank you okay is there anything else meeting's adjourned