for monday november 12th two thousand and twelve yes mr sylvestry your roll please mr berquist here mr arcurie here mr ball present mr steigel present mr axton here mrs merrill present and mr lewis will not be here okay can we ask everybody to stand and join us saying the pledge of allegiance i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all next item on the agenda will be special reports next will be approval of minutes i already talked about that we do this every time next will be approval of the minutes for the regular council meeting of october 22nd two thousand and twelve i move that the minutes be approved as submitted second it's been moved and seconded and all those in favor please say aye aye with this the motion carries okay now we'll get to the special reports there are none there are none next item will be audience comments it'll be an opportunity for members of the audience to address council on a nonagenda item limited to five minutes anybody in the audience wish to address council at this time okay seeing we have no unfinished business particular visitors say for gasoline and diesel fuel has been a three shape purchasing council as we discussed at the last meeting there was an issue with getting a performance bond yes defer that was the low bidder is unwilling to provide performance bond they because of their profit margin and so that would give us the ability to disqualify them and go to the next low bidder which is our current carrier based on our total gallons anticipated for the year that the total difference in price is five and thirty five cents so yeah it's negligible so we're recommending that we i move that we disqualify reed oil and from the prior award and that we award the bid for gasoline to glassmere second okay and in second and all those in favor please say aye aye motion carries new business first line will be a presentation by the mont rochelle council to deep bridge options cross valid recruit here good evening first of all a brief status of where the bridges are valley brook number one we've got dep approval october 17th we went out to bid up october 29th the bids are due november 30th and we hope to have a notice to proceed for the valley brook bridge number one sometime shortly after the holidays the primary reason for the meeting tonight is valley brook bridge number two is the second one we'll be building we have a grant for the design we haven't heard yet from dc on whether we got it we put a design a grant in to lsa for construction money but early on ten years ago or so when we showed plans to council we showed valley brook bridge number two as being a girder design we've learned since that time that a trust bridge either a prefabricated trust or potentially a reuse of a design that hdr engineering has offered to the mont rochelle council as a design we could possibly use would be the more costeffective solution by about two or three hundred thousand dollars and that's significantly enough different enough from what we showed you back then that we wanted to give you some idea of what it might look like and make sure there are no serious objections to it and get your approval to proceed along these lines these are some conceptual renderings that jon koloski from hdr who's here with us tonight put together to show us what the bridge might look like if it were essentially the same design as the clifton road bridge up in bethel park it would either be something like this or a one hundred and sixty foot this is a two hundred foot bridge it would either be this or one hundred and sixty foot prefabricated design which would be a little bit smaller than this jon came along in case there were questions on the design and why this is superior to the girders that i already showed you before can you drive a sherman tank across it that's the criteria for me bout is that true h10 jon h10 maybe h15 west valley brook right this is the west valley brook right yeah yes that's a long bridge how long is the one across in bethel park the two hundred foot that's it that's it that's the bridge that's the bridge that's the design that they've offered to let us reuse if it makes sense it's costeffective yeah it's not very attractive what's your definition of attractive the one on clifton road is in my opinion not attractive that's fine i just saying i mean but who cares i'm not going to be walking across it if it saves you two or three hundred thousand dollars okay it's a bridge i don't see anything wrong with it jon what's this bridge rated objections no if there are serious objections in this approval to continue with our design and along these lines would be what i'm looking for yes might be h15 i'd have to check i believe this is about an h15 your smaller ambulance for sure i'm not sure about your bigger truck we'd have to check give me a number on it jon what was it what was the number and the weight and age an h15 it's the highway fifteen ten thirty ton thirty ton yeah well that'll handle anything we put on them okay but the only reason for that is maintenance vehicles it's just it's a minimum design load infrequent no big deal correct infrequent what ages our rebound bridge i don't know i'm not sure well it was supposed to be designed for five ton but it's much more than that because of the changes penddot required you're going to have to close valley brook road to put that up there'll probably be traffic restrictions at some point yes it's a shame it couldn't go on at the same time as the intersection project because it'll be closed then when is that happening it's supposed to happen next year when was that now wait a minute if we had the money in our accounts i want to hear this answer myself mark i want to hear the answer to myself it's going to be it's going to be a twoyear project though it won't be complete until two thousand and fifteen if cards fall the way we hope they will we could potentially be doing at the same time which would be ideal i can't guarantee that of course we'll make them cards fall people keep your fingers crossed for lsa and dcr to come through well it sounds like you got your marching orders okay thank you that would be a great addition by the way so it's needed for safety precautions next line will be you know what we saw the picture too there that it was taking all the cars parked along the highway i went by there the other day there is like twenty cars along there someone's going to get hurt michael we could request it be a no parking area okay next line will be the final plat approval in valley manor phase four and division two for san don and don hazel and andrew and to meet the crew we'll discussed this i believe back in the summer so i have open space to put together what's mentioned i believe the counsel gave stop marching orders going forward to work out a deal with the three parties yes the amount of open space for the crew property would be fifty eight acres and for the hazel property would be two hundred and thirty two acres and the funds would go into the open space fund to be used for recreation capital improvements or land acquisition for the public can you just state what the fee was the fee is it was based on our costs of appraisals for a park property that we purchased and updated but for the fifty eight acre parcel it's one thousand one hundred and sixty and then for the other parcel it's five thousand six hundred and fifty eight i move we approve the revised plan second second it any other comments at this time counsel any audience comments okay all those in favor please say aye aye opposed nay nay so like four to two in favor okay third item would be reapproval plato plat venetia point for the martin brothers incorporated in drawings by cobalt professional services dated october 30th two thousand and twelve this plan was approved in two thousand and nine and at the time they were the reason the revised plan was submitted was they wanted to increase the number of units and make smaller units so they felt it would be more marketable since the existing units were not i remember that they weren't selling what did they do not record it they did not record it because at the time there was an issue with tap and availability and then it just kind of fell between the cracks and so they came in for a building permit last month or last week and that's when we were informed but until it's recorded we can't issue a building permit so they're asking for reapproval based on all the same conditions but did the other one expire after certain after ninety days if you don't record it then it expires well i'll move that we approve the venetia point revision subject to the conditions set forth in the august 25th two thousand and nine letter of i assume it was a view mr sylvestry and payment of the fees for plan approval second okay it's seconded are there any other comments from counsel what are they here yes what's the issue back there as to why it's taking so long first concert cobalt professional services the issue was part of the requirements were approval by peter's creek sanitary authority at the time they were under cap i couldn't get the planning module approved and it just that was it and then the market fell out and everything just everything just stopped it's my understanding that there was some question about the design that you proposed to peter's creek sanitary no related to the way that no the laterals were going to be fed in i'm sorry related to the way the laterals were going to be fed in whether you could share them between two buildings that's a separate question right now there are nine additional units proposed and there are nine additional laterals being proposed hmm hmm there's a lot of rock on that site hmm hmm and the question you're alluding to is down the road whether or not we have to make nine cuts across them i mean cause the rocks it's solid rock i mean we may have to shoot it so if we can take two laterals or bring two laterals into one crossing that was our question right now we're looking at nine laterals nine additional we'll break into the main and that's where we stand right now when you say you're going to additional walkon are you starting to get some interest back there i don't know if necessarily i can't say that there's any but they're looking at things are picking up a little bit so they're going good go in yeah i'd like to see that get done which set of buildings are you planning to do next i can't answer but i mean i don't know what the set or what going to done well he got it he must've applied for something right this would be these six units here these three units are available okay i see hmm hmm these six okay thank you thank you thank you any other questions discussion okay it's been moved and seconded all those in favor say aye aye opposed okay carry six zero next item will be a committed to establish a sewage management district for peter's creek one or two on a peter's creek is working on an extension of bower hill sewers this was something that they applied for in two thousand and ten through the local through the county lsa program and it did not occur they're reapplying for this one of the conditions that will be that is being made by the det is that if within five years of approval if the sewers are not extended then the township would have to develop a sewage management district for on lot systems requiring inspections and recordings we already have this on the books for unconventional on lot systems and we had to do a similar thing when the value drive sewer project was done so this is very similar to that there's a draft letter in your docket this is where the sewers would go and the long parallel bower hill road here's venetia road bower hill so this area here right now is not sewer and so it would pick up these homes on this end what's it going to get done it's supposed to yeah they've been trying to do this for awhile you know kind of also got held up because the issues with it the corrective action plan but now that it's part of the comprehensive plan for the five hundred and thirty seven district and it's a priority for the authorities like what section of bower hill is that this is venetia row right here okay and this is bower hill this is santa woods coming up in the back end there i'm with you yeah the only thing i would ask i think that we should go ahead with this in the letter you may want to check the second sentence of the first paragraph i think you missed a phrase or a noun in there somewhere second okay within five years i'm thinking you mean the township will then or somebody will then implement a sewage management plan that's basically right along the township border there michael hmm yes the red line is you know there's a touch of land well close to it yeah damn close yeah the creek is the township line so what do you need from us counsel would need to agree to commit to doing a sewage management on lot management plan if the sewers are not constructed within five years what kind of sewers do they have now well those lots are on lot systems so septic systems same amounts whatever that involves you know you would have we would have to do inspections the routine inspections they would have to they'd be required to do routine pumping of the septic tanks making repairs things like that one moved that the township agreed to establish a sewage management district for the bower hill road area as indicated it's just been moved and seconded and do we have any other discussion on this are we actually forming a district or is this no we would form a district if in five years if the sewers are not extended okay and that's what the motion is right okay is there anything else all those in favor please say aye aye opposed anyone heard three people aye okay i'm sorry motion carries i have six zero okay next line will be an authorization to utilize the services of energy for procurement as a purchase of electricity and natural gas mr lauer your business yes we went out and solicited proposals from a number of firms for service and energy preference for the township we have had our experience with on the main energy and if pleased with their service they're also one of the largest energy brokers in the state of pennsylvania and what that allows us to do as a small energy user is to have our loads aggregated with others to get us the best possible price so we're recommending that we once again enter into an agreement with ondemand energy to work as a broker for the township alright i move that we authorize you to lock in a price through ondemand energy when you believe it's optimal was that really what you're asking are you asking you to utilize we're asking you to enter into a contract with them but what we will in fact do is that at the point in time when on demand makes a recommendation to us that we'll be able to walk in so we're kind of putting the cart before the horse here well should we do it all at one time we can actually by the time they say this is the time to do it we need to one we need the authority to enter into right i knew that i moved that you're authorized to continue with on demand energy period okay and we will enter into a contract at the optimal time for well no no that's what going to be my next motion as soon as we get through this one i do have a question okay i do want to second that yeah okay after the second i do have a question on the chart you gave us it looks like high voltage is a lower rate so what is your am i reading that incorrectly or are you no you're not but one of the things that what this really gets down to and what i make issue in the report is that there are limited number of markets for electricity and natural gas so it really doesn't you know it gets down to this question of price in part but it also gets down to this question of service and one of the things that high voltage does not have is a huge portfolio and that's what you get with and so then instead of us entering into our contract electric contract on our own what on demand we'll do is aggregate are others which allow us to get the kind of pricing a large volume customer would get as opposed to relying strictly on our amount of electric credential gas so what you're basically saying is the big cause of the options on demand has you anticipate that our rates will in fact be lower so we will not be losing money right which is a good explanation that people would like to hear thank you hmm hmm it was made and seconded the requests are there any concerns i think we were wondering actually under the natural gas what is does that unit dth stack of therms okay alright well on that note all those in favor please say aye aye opposed motion carries six zero i'm going to make a motion that you're authorized that the township management authorized to lock in the prices when they feel that it's an optimum price second okay this has been made a second and it as well any discussion on that item okay all those in favor please say aye aye opposed that also carries six zero item number six payroll and bills which i reviewed and will recommend that they be approved i'll make that motion second any discussion all those in favor please say aye aye opposed those carry six zero correspondence anything you want to hid on there's a letter from the quail run homeowner's association board and they're asking for the township to make one section of quail run road from sandpiper here to scott on the lower side a no parking district it's exactly the high side of the road this is the road there but this area in red they're asking that that side of the road be no parking and that they would only have parking on one side of the road what's it it's both sides now yes i guess because of the number of units they've been having issues with cars parking on both sides and trying to get through and that's the main road into the plan and so they're requesting to that we adopted an ordinance where we were in the process of preparing an update to our motor vehicle ordinance so this would be added to that if council concurs mr sylvestry is this related to too few parking spaces for guests or is it just the convenient thing that people are doing i can't answer that i mean we in this plan this was one of our first big townhouse plans i think we have some additional parking but it's not at the we did not have a requirement that was specific in the ordinance back then so that could have been a problem back then because there is parking in this area there's some parking over here but i don't recall that there's very many separate parking lots in that development and that was i think we adopted our we changed our ordinance after this plan to create additional parking for guests well the reason i'm asking is that we just approved finish a point that continue on and to mitigate that in the future perhaps we need to look at additional spaces for that type of well venetia point does have a requirement for additional parking i know but they really have too many from what i can recall from it four yeah that's not very many we need a motion to approved this or we just needed indication council would like us to include that in our update ordinance that we're preparing for the next meeting i think i'd like to have more information okay as to like what is the available parking because if it's because you know they have a lot of guest and there's no place to park they're just going to park someplace else you'll cause a problem someplace else in the plan i think you know what i'm saying i mean shouldn't we know exactly whether it's what mrs merrill said is it visitors or is it people parking there because it's in front of their house and then they're you know they don't want to pull it in their driveway or whatnot i mean i think before we that that's a long area of roadway there i mean how long is that do you know how long that is it's probably a couple thousand feet see that's what i saying it's also a narrow road that's the other problem i mean i don't have a problem i've been up there i mean it is narrow but i mean i don't know if we want to you know maybe we'd just be pushing it off of there to some other road that this is going to be even worse what seen from the now see the road is standard size it's twenty four feet oh it's twenty four feet what's seen from the pictures that what's happening is the way people are parking and it's really creating sort of like a like a maze a maze that people can't get through and it creates because of the elevation line of sight issues and go and when they go around the curves are up the hems well i mean if you think it's okay well god no i'm just i think there's a problem behind the issue but i think that right now they're looking for some sort of way to make improve safety so from a safety perspective i think we should look at what can be done in that particular area i mean obviously if there's a safety issue i don't have any problem with what they want to do but i mean to just ban the whole side of that street i don't know what do you think i think just looking at the picture and the arc that's there it did just appear to be a safety issue and anytime you park on the street it's always yeah you'd do the same thing in granting more than one side parking there well do you know whether or not the association like had the homeowners i don't know input to do that i mean you know we do that i don't want you know fifty quail run residents up there screaming why'd you do it we could we can ask those questions and get back to you i would think that i'd rather do i think that's proof just restricting parking on one side of the street right the letter came from the condominium association yes tom frank president so plan's been there for thirty years so i think we can probably put it off two more weeks well that's i think i think i'd want to have more information not that i'm not inclined to do it i know that it is sort of a maze up there sometimes but i'd rather get it right than have to redo it okay thank you they also have correspondents reports there are no reports how about their chesapeake application yeah that's required by law anytime there's under the new act anytime there's a well any adjacent community must notify the adjacent community this well has actually been under construction last summer ed and i were both viewing it when it was being fracked but i guess they're restarting again with that new well what's that it's a new well new wells are proposed yeah but it's on the same site is that the one it's up behind that hill there like across from tracks no no no this is in nottingham you have to go it's very hard to find it's in a big ball it's off of sugar run oh okay sugar running off of cooper is that correct off of cooper right miscellaneous yes fuel tax we have the audit from auditor general's office on two years of liquid fuels tax there were no exceptions there was minor adjustment in the balance but there's no action required by council it's just there for information purposes the other item is there's a zoning hearing board two zoning hearing board cases coming up to determine if the council has much to take a position on them both are signed variances one is dealing with an electronic sign and we adopted a new ordinance earlier this year that limits it to one color the council did act allow you to have like pictures on it they requested a variance to be able to have multicolored pictures this is a sample no of the sign that they're proposing no that seems like a lot of signage for that building is it between the building and the monument is that within the square footage ed the building signage is under our square footage that we allow the freestanding sign is a little over but they're kind of nonconforming in that they're just using the same sign that ethan allen used to have there by eighteen square feet they're allowed seventy but this sign would be eighty eight square feet can i ask you a question the applicant she owned the property prior to the ordinance that's one of her she did not oh she did not so her argument is that she was in the process of purchasing in may of two thousand and eleven and we adopted our ordinance revision in july of two thousand and eleven and so she was in the process she was in the process did she testify at the hearing on that we haven't had any hearing yet we passed the ordinance no we would have advertised that ordinance before we adopted it we had several people i remember i guess my issue is that she's trying to say that it's required as for certain vendors if she would have brought that to my attention to any of our attention at the hearing i think i would have been much less inclined to vote for the order and the question before council is do you want to take a position recommendation to the zoning hearing yes we have to enforce our ordinance i don't like those multicolored signs anyway so and i've been on record all along i don't want us to get like you know mcknight road so if we have an ordinance and it provides for one color then it's one color period what good's having an ordinance if everybody's going to come in here with you know well this happened or that happened no that's the ordinance that's what we approved that's what they're stuck with works for me that's hard to argue with i really don't have a problem with it we spent a lot of time coming up with that and now we're going to change it nah well i think the other issue is is if that signage is actually an excess of what the standard is she's asking actually for two things that would be a variance well i think she's grandfathered in on one one's grandfathered in on the size of the sign but not digital sign i would argue that the outside frame of that sign was standing as it was but that s and p floors above the digital she could have moderated the size of the rest of that because right now it's empty there's nothing in there yeah i know but if we're going to take the position she can't have the color sign i'm not going to make her put smaller numbers smaller letters i'm saying that i'm saying it's two things in my viewpoint and i don't disagree that if we created the ordinance we need to support the ordinance that we agreed to but that is an electronic sign that the the color board the color board below is just an example of what will now be changing yes but even allen didn't have they didn't have that but her requirement to is blue background red and or amber colored zone and she wants to be able to display colors like it shows on yeah what i'm asking is it says a requirement to be a franchisee for this company requires a display of this particular that's one of her arguments but it doesn't have to be electronic that's true so she did confirm so she could put that sign on the other side of the building oh i see once that awning of the entrance right no you can't advertise things like carpet plump like product she markets at the location she can advertise the name of her business on her building oh not products she sells on the building so she couldn't put that sign over on that where's that other picture she could have it in the window huh according to our ordinance that colored sign could be in the window could be in the window she is asking for a sign over her entrance that's another part of her application yeah i saw that somewhere on entrance i mean to park up there on the awning side that's not as good you guys have the next picture is that picture oh i'm sorry wake up mike come on i know that is her other at the game when she wants that she wants now she couldn't put that side over on the other side of the no well does that meet our ordinance could she ask for a variance over there to put that sign to put what sign the one that says carpet whatever no no well she could ask for a variance but my point is she saying she needs that colored sign because she's a franchisees for this company if i understand is correct that is correct and she wants to put it on the electronic board and we're saying electronic boards we own allow colored but one color right and what i'm saying so i'm with frank i don't want to change ordinance but she could also ask for variance to just put that sign somewhere else in the building and not be on the electronic board and we might be willing to pass that is what kind of like mattress discounters remember has a big service on in the window yeah yeah and you just said imagine this company had nineteen little placards the other weekend so you get like mr lewis your cotton placards just letting you know that there's options available for her to display that's what i'm trying to get to there are options it doesn't have to be electronic it could be another option somewhere to fulfill her obligation to her franchisor that is correct she's a franchisee it would be the franchisor or or right that's all i'm getting to i mean because you don't want to restrict any franchisee from fulfilling his franchisor obligations right so do i have any views i'm getting confuse jon do i have some directions send the position to the zoning hearing board for council our position would be follow the ordnance following the ordinance and to encourage her to but we're willing to look at other options for her to fulfill her franchisor obligation okay there's a principle and then there's a second one what's the second one wow the second one that hurt me is for sun chevrolet whoops they're asking for variance to put whoops whoops events okay what does it look like signs signs everywhere signs that's why i'm telling you guys walking of the scenery you got zoning here and board member her tonight he's not allowed to speak on us just soak it all in jon okay they're asking for a variance for to have two signs because now that similar to what was approved for thousand where southfield lincoln where there's the main sign on the office side there's a little smaller sign that basically it that's it two signs on one facade which they had previous correct and what's the total square footage does it still meet our requirements less than our requirements see i i don't have a problem with that i don't have a problem with it either i think the other side because they're not digital signs that's not a standard chevy that's not standard chevy building is that another franchisee thing it is a franchisee thing okay anything else on this line yes there's a request by mr albert cashier public works american public works association is looking to do a fundraiser with a bunch of public works departments similar to what you see in that intersection like penn state or the fire department to raise funds for hurricane sandy relief with mr albert cashier proposing is to be able to go out probably this weekend and have a couple of trucks at the corner and be out there with some volunteers to solicit funds from patsy motors but you're saying that he's donating this to salvation army not to red cross no salvation army well i'm good with salvation army you need to motion to get further consensus consensus i would agree i passed out a couple of things the gas impact fee you said you did get a final number yes it was two hundred and fifty nine thousand and some change it was basically about two thousand less than what the original ones said it wasn't bad at the next meeting we have a public budget hearing or budget workshop next monday we've also advertised a special meeting to talk about healthcare we have to give the answer to nit by the 20th we weren't ready for tonight so we're going to have that and we just wanna let you know that rick enscoe from enscoe long will be there in addition the meeting with verizon to look at valley brook is on the 20th at nine am tuesday we did advertise a public hearing for the next meeting for a budget amendment it is basically technical amendments to put us in compliance before the end of the year for the two thousand and twelve budget and i also passed out a list of board appointments the council boards that are rough i got a double check etb i just received the email from mrs zachary i think her terms is fine cause she's doesn't want reappointment because she's moving out of the township i'll double check that one who was that michael kim zachary oh this is the board appointments we'll get you a current attendance on these for next meeting any other agenda items that's all i have i have two things general information the high school recently participated in an event called lived up which i might be saying incorrectly where they created a video to be posted in a competition with other high schools the entire school participated and there's the potential for the school to win five thousand based on votes so if anybody out there would like to go online and look at this lived up and vote for the high school i'm sure that will be very appreciative it's great a little program they had to they were given a song they had to lip sync so to speak to it pan through the school and do different things it's really very nicely done so i would encourage you to do that we know how to get it's on the internet i don't have the actual login but i think if you went to peters township high school they have a link to it from the high school yes the patch mic the patch mic yes and then the only other thing i wanted to say is happy veteran's day to everyone and thank you for your service any items for next agenda if there's not meeting's adjourned